Document 638apo6V4d5B94nbBV10VL4R

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF WEST VIRGINIA CHARLESTON, WEST VIRGINIA JAMES M. ADKINS, A d m i n i s t r a t o r ) of tha E sta te o f Ralph E. A d k in s,) Deceased, a t a l, ) ) P la in tiffs, ) ) v s . ) No. 81-2098 MONSANTO COMPANY, a Da l a w ar C orporation, ) ) ) ) Da fo n d a n t. ) D eposition of MONTE C. THRODAHL tak en on b e h a lf o f th a P la in tiffs. *************** >* R e p o r te r : M. J o y S p r i n g e r * J a m es M ay R e p o r t in g S erv ice CERTIFIED S H O R TH A N D REPORTERS R R 2 8 0 * 65 EOW ARDSVILLE ILLIN O IS 62025 . 1 142 t o *45 you a l s o b-'u-a*.*? a g roup le a d e r ? 2 A Ho. In 1945 I became: a gro u p l e a d e r 3 and rem ained th ere u n til about 1950. 4 CJ In th e same p la c e ? 5 A Yes. 6 Q A l l r i g h t . How, th e r u b b e r l a b o r a t o r y 7 was t h a t a p a r t o f th e Monsanto R e se arch C o rp o ra tio n , 8 o r d id I t becor.ie the. Monsanto R e se a rc h C o rp o ra tio n ? 9 A No, no. A t t h a t tim e th eN Itro 10 o p e r a t io n s w ere a p a r t o f w h at was th e n c a l l e d th e 11 O rg an ic C h em icals D i v i s i o n . S e e , t h a t had been a n 12 in d e p e n d e n t company t h a t M onsanto had a c q u ir e d b a c k in 13 th e l a t e '2 0 's some tim e , and I t s t i l l m a in ta in e d a 14 r a t h e r c o m p le te e n t i t y o f r e s e a r c h an d n a n u f a c t u r i n g 15 in th e same l o c a t i o n . B ut th e R e s e a rc h D e p a rtm e n t a t 16 t h a t p o i n t had a d i f f e r e n t r e p o r t i n g r e l a t i o n s h i p . I t 17 was n o t a p a r t o f M a n u fa c tu rin g , 18 Q Did you c a r r y o u t a n y t e s t s on p a r a - 19 a m in o -b ip h e n y l in t h a t l a b o r a to r y ? 20 A No. N ot on p a ra -a m in o -b y p h e n y l i t 21 s e l f b e c a u se t h a t h as no e f f e c t on r u b b e r , b u t th e r e 22 a c tio n p ro d u c t o f t h a t w ith a c e to n e , w hich was c a lle d 23 S a n t o f l e x , y e s , we d i d . You h av e to .u n d e r s ta n d , t h i s 24 is not a q u a lity control lab. *.S'" *- * a re s e a rc h .labors , *r S'> 25 t o r y w h ere we w ould t e s t l i t e r a l l y hundreds and hundred J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E i t *1 1 o f c h e m i c a l s f o r t h e i r e f f i c a c y , a n d obvious 1> S a n t o - 2 flexes were a p a rt of th a t. 3 Q In the rubber l a b o r a to r y you liac a 4 d i f f e r e n t m issio n ir. terms oi what you were to do than 5 from wha t we c a l l t h e q u a l i t y c o n t r o l work, you were 6 doing; 7 A This is not q u a lity co n tro l a t a l l . 8 These a r e lo o k in g r o r new p ro d u c ts and p ro v in g t h e i r 9 e f f i c a c y and c a r r y in g out i n v e s t i g a t i o n s t h a t would be 10 u s e f u l t o p o t e n t i a l c u s t o m e r s who c o u l c th e n use t h a t 11 i n f o r m a t i o n w i t h t h e i r own k i n d s c f p r o b le m s. 12 Q D u r in g t h i s time p e r i o d , 1941 t o , 13 l e t ' s s a y , '4 5 t o 1950, d i d t h e t t i t r o P l a n t have a 14 r e s e a r c h l a b o r a t o r y f u n c t i o n i n c o n n e c t i o n w i t h th e 15 o t h e r p r o d u c t s t h a t i t m a n u f a c t u r e d t h e r e ? 16 A Yeah. I t d i d p r o c e s s r e s e a r c t * f o r I 17 a l l p r o d u c t s t h a t were t h e r e i n a d d i t i o n t o th e p r o d u c t s 18 o f r u b b e r . They made, a t t h a t p o i n t in t i m e , t h e y made 19 some d e t e r g e n t m a t e r i a l s , t h e y cede some o i l a d d i t i v e s . 20 Q So i n a d d i t i o n t o the q u a l i t y c o n t r o l 21 l a b o r a t o r y , you had t h e r u b b e r l a b o r a t o r y , w h ic h was 22 p r i m a r i l y o r n o t e x c l u s i v e l y a r e s e a r c h f u n c t i o n , a n d 23 i n a d d i t i o n t o t h a t you a l s o had a r e s e a r c h - f u n c t i o n 24 l a b o r a t o r y f o r some o f t h e o t h e r p ro d u c ts A t t h e - N i t r o 25 P l a n t ? JAM ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE Jf *1 1 A Ye^h.. Til? ~ ti;>n 7'.v 1 Organic 2 Syn t he s Is whe re you1r'-1 c tua 1.1y na k ir >jr n ew c he-.1ce 1 3 and then h o p e f u lly o p tim iz in g prnce"f*i.? fo r th'- more 4 app rop riiate ones tria t mighc be c a r r ie d forward i n t o , 5 larger sc a le . Q For exam ple, i f you had a product 7 th a t needed to be im proved, fo r exam ple, a t th e N itro 8 F la r.t, would th a t kind of re s e a rc h be done a t th e O rganic 9 S y n th e sis L ab o rato ry a t N ttro or p a r t of th a t work? 10 A I t c o u ld b e . 11 Q F o r ercam ple, i f you had c u sto m e r 12 c o m p la in ts a b o u t a p r o d u c t, would one- o f th e c h e m is ts 13 in th e O rg an ic S y n th e s is Lab maybe he i n s t r u c t e d t o 14 ta k e a lo o k a t t h a t ? 15 A I f th e c o m p la in t was p e rfo rm a n c e ? l Q Yeah. .17 A Uh huh (ye s ) , 18 Q .Now, w aid t h a t p h y s i c a l l y have been 19 in a d i f f e r e n t p l a c e , o r was i t j u s t one l a b o r a t o r y 20 w ith d if f e r e n t se c tio n s of i t devoted to d if f e r e n t -- 21 A The r u b b e r l a b o r a t o r y was a f r e e s t a n d 22 in g b u ild in g t h a t was lo c a te d some d i s ta n c e away b u t 23 w i t h i n th e j l a n t a r e a . The r e s e a r c h f a c i l i t y ! , w h ic h 24 was a t t h a t tim e in th e e a r l y p a r t o f t h a t p e r io d , was 25 a o n e - s t o r y g ro u p o f la b s t h a t w ere b u i l t f o r two to JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SERVICE JK 1 10 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 i 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 fo u r p e o p le , and. th e re was a l ib r a r y and storeroom and t h i s s o r t of th in g . The A n a ly tic a l D epartm ent was a p a r t o f th a t b u ild in g . Then th e re was a th ir d b u ild in g c a lle d a sm all p ilo t p la n t th a t wps a ls o lo cated nearby. Q T hat was c a lle d a p i l o t p la n t? A Uh huh ( y e s ) . Q Now, d i d t h a t c o n s t i t u t e a l l th e la b o ra to ry type f a c i li t ie s a t the N itro P lant? A Yeah. Q Now, you iere g ro u p l e a d e r from '4 5 to 1950? A Yeah. Q And th e n w hat happened to yo then? A W ell, th e re c o rd shows I became A s sista n t R esearch D irecto r a t th a t tim e. 1 did th a t f o r , i t say s h e r e , a l i t t l e more th a n a y e a r. 1 moved over then and became a M anager o f Commercial D evelop ment fo r Rubber C hem istry, and I d id th a t from '5 2 to 54 a t N itro ? Q Now, a s A s s i s t a n t R e s e a rc h D i r e c t o r what d id you do, w hat was t h a t a l l ab o u t? A W ell, I had the r e s p o n s ib ility then f o r much o f th e work th p t w ould be c a l l e d s y n t h e s is of the chem icals as w e ll as th e ir evalu ation In rubber. JAM ES MAY REPO RTING SERVICE - Jt *1 -i-.:*- -- r ^ ---->------ :-- i 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 u 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 * 24 25 I g u ess t h a t 's why I m?de th e n e x t nove. A t t h a t tim e th e concept of persuading somebody, a custom er, fo r exam ple, th a t h e , i f he had a problem , th a t you had a s o l u t i o n t o h i s p ro b le m . We d i d n 't know t h a t was. c a lle d com m ercial developm ent in th o se d ay s, but I made a number o f c o n ta c ts w ith c u sto m ers In t h a t r o l e a s A s s is ta n t R esearch D ir e c to r to tike p o in t w here in th e e a r l y p a r t o f f 52 i t was d e c id e d m y be I c o u ld e x pand t h a t fu n c tio n and do i t on a f u ll- tim e b a s is , so th a t's what I d id . At th a t p o in t I sp en t p g re a t d e a l o f tim e w ith our M ark etin g p eo p le who wre in A kron, O hio. In e f f e c t , coim nerclal developm ent was kind of a b rid g e betw een re s e a rc h and s a le s . Q T h a t's where began the escape from N itro, rig h t? A Oh, l i s t e n , we d i d a l o t o f f a s c i n a t ing th in g s a t N itro . J u s t f a r enough away from headq u a r t e r s s o w e 'd t r y t h i n g s . I f th e y d i d n 't w o rk , we d i d n 't t e l l a n y b o d y . I f t h e y d i d w o rk , we w ere h e r o e s . Q Now, a s A s s i s t a n t R e s e a rc h D i r e c t o r , d id t h a t jo b i n i t i a l l y - - I know i t e v o lv e d i n t o som eth in g a l i t t l e d i f f e r e n t when jou s t a r t e d m aking th e s e c o n ta c ts su ch t h a t you w ere moved o u t - - b u t- d id you . have re s p o n s ib ility fo r a l l the organic sy n th atis.-lab o ra to ry th a t was going on in the p l a n t i i i t ' o r J u s t 1 / l. ft J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E *1 :..... : 12 1 the rubber lab o rato ry ? 2 A W ell, anything t h a t h rd to do w ith 3 r u b b e r c h e m is tr y was my r e s p o n s i b i l i t y a t t h a t p o i n t . 4 T h e re was a R e s e a rc h D i r e c t o r t o whom I r e p o r t e d a t 5 the s ite . 6 Q Was t h e r e a n o t h e r A s s i s t a n t R e s e a r c h 7 D irecto r besides yourself? 8 A No. 9 q But as A ssista n t R esearch D irecto r 10 you h ad n o r e s p o n s i b i l i t y f o r o r g a n ic s y n t h e s i s o p e r a t io n ? 11 A I d id f o r th o s e t h a t w e re a p p l i c a b l e 12 t o r u b b e r . P r i m a r i l y t o g e t th e l i n i n g on s t r a i g h t 13 t h e r e w ould be a c c e l e r a t o r s a n d a n t i - d e g r a d a n t s a n d 14 v u l c a n i z i n g s y s te m s , th o s e w e re a p p l i c a b l e t o th e 15 p r o c e s s in g o f r u b b e r . 16 Q Do you know a t t h a t tim e whow ould 17 h a v e had r e s p o n s i b i l i t y f o r s u p e r v i s i n g th e r e s e a r c h 18 f u n c t i o n o f o r g a n ic s y n t h e s i s a s i t r e l a t e d t o o t h e r 19 p r o d u c ts o u t s i d e th e r u b b e r i n t e r e s t s a t N i t r o a t t h a t 2 tim e ? 21 A W e ll, th e D i r e c t o r h ad t h a t f u n c t i o n 22 h i m s e l f . 23 q Who was t h a t a t t h a t tin ja U 24 A H is name was W endell M ttc n e r . New d e a d . 25 q You l e f t N i t r o w h in ? I h v*2f5? JA M E S MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E Jt 13 1 A '5 4 . 2 Q Was M e ts n e r s t i l l t h e r e , i f you r e c a l l ? 3 A As I r e c a l l , he had gone to S t. L ouis 4 as w e ll, I th in k ne had gone to c. Louis p rio r to 5 my tim e , a b o u t a y e a r o r s o , b u t c h a t 's a g u e s s , I 6 h a v e n 't talk ed about th a t in a w h ile, 7 Q I f in f a c t he d id l e a v e , d o you know 8 who may have r e p la c e d him a s a D ir e c to r ? 9 A Y es. A man named G eorge S t a h l y , 10 S - t - a - h - l - y . 11 Q Up u n t i l th e tim e you l e f t th e N i t r o 12 P l a n t , th e D i r e c t o r o f R e s e a rc h w o u ld h a v e b e e n th e 13 g e n tle m a n who had r e s p o n s i b i l i t y f o r t h i s o r g a n ic 14 s y n t h e s i s w o rk f o r e v e r y t h i n g o u t s i d e th e r u b b e r - 15 Of c o u r s e , he a l s o had r e s p o n s i b i l i t y f o r t h a t , b u t 16 t h e A s s i s t a n t D i r e c t o r was p r i m a r i l y r e s p o n s i b l e f o r 17 th e r u b b e r l a b o r a t o r y ? 18 A T h a t 's r i g h t . 19 Q A l l r i g h t . Now, d u r in g th e p e r io d 20 o f tim e t h a t you w e re a t N i t r o , do you r e c a l l who th e 21 p l a n t d o c to r s w ere? 22 A Y eah. R ic h a r d W a lla c e . 23 Q Was a D r. N e ls o n th e r e a l e e a t some tim e ? 24 A N e lso n ? 25 Q Y e s, s i r . fJ \ it JAM ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SER VIC E V 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A X d o n 't rem em ber a N e ls o n . T h ere may have b e en a N e lso n t h a t was.- a c o n s u l t a n t , b u t I d o n 't remember th a t name. Q O.K. I n 1V54 you moved o u t o f N i t r o to Alaron, did you say? A No. I came to S t . L o u is . I came a s A .ssista n t D ire c to r of Developm ent f o r w hat was then kind of the p a re n t of us a l l , th e O rganic Chem icals D ivision. Q A t the tim e th a t would have included N itro? A Yes. Q And would t h a t have in c lu d e d e v e r y th in g a t th e N itro P la n t ex ce p t the ru b b er b u s in e s s , o r was th a t a ls o included? A W ell, now, th is is Com m ercial D evelopment a t th is p o in t. So our ro le in th e O rganic C hem icals D i v i s i o n a t t h a t tim e i n a d d i t i o n to r u b b e r , we h a d a number of o th e r fu n c tio n a l pro d u cts th a t were p a rt of th e focus of th e O rganic C hem icals D iv isio n . Q A il r i g h t . And w hat k in d o f a . jo b was th a t? A W ell, a g a in , i t was one o f-th e se oneover-one a f f a ir s . I rep o rte d to a D irector and he and I e s s e n tia lly s p lit the re s p o n s ib ilitie s of sev eral J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E Jt 15 ' 1 groups t h a t w e had in th e departm en t i t the t tim e, T 2 con tin u ed to look a f t e r rubber, and I 'v e fo r g o tte n now, 3 but I to o k on p l a s t i c i z e r : : , a s I r e c a l l , I t h in k , o i l 4 a d d i t i v e s a t th e tim e; but i t ' s f u z z y to me e x a c t l y . - 5 how we d id s p l i t i t up. That was cu stom ary in th o se d a y s . 6 Q What was i t t h a t you w ere t r y in g t o 7 accom plish through th is development department? 8 A O.K. That r o le was t o g u id e , n o t 9 d ir e c t, but guide research in th e ir search for fu n ctio n a l 10 p r o d u c ts . F u n c tio n a l p rod u cts a re c h e m ia ls th a t perform 11 a f u n c t io n , su ch an v u lc a n iz in g a g e n t in ru b b er, a n t i 12 d egrad an t in ru b b er, l u b r ic a t in g o i l a d d i t i v e s t h a t 13 would red uce wear on p is to n r in g s and th in g s o f t h i s 14 s o r t . We c a l l e d th o se f u n c t io n a l c h e m ic a ls . So i t was 15 our t a s k t o p r o v id e g u id a n ce fo r r e s e a r c h in t h e i r e x 16 p lo r a t o r y programs s y n t h e s i z e nev: c h e m ic a ls m o i e t i e s . 17 I t wa3 our ta s k to t e s t th e w a te rs w it h cu sto m ers or 18 p o t e n t i a l cu stom ers f o r problem s and n eed s t h a t th e y 19 had and t r a n s l a t e th o se i n t o th e k in d s o f s k i l l b a se s 20 t h a t we had and th e n , t h i r d l y , we a c t u a l l y had groups 21 o f p e o p le t h a t to o k p ro m isin g p ro d u cts from th e r e s e a r c h 22 and the a p p lic a t io n work th a t w ent on and took them out 23 to custom ers and sta y ed w ith them w h ile th e c u sto m e r s 24 worked w ith them over p erio d s o f tim and e v e n tu a lly 25 0 f 'I ' ^ ' . brought them to a p o in t where th e y ware tr a n s fe r r e d to JAM ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE ii '<j t iS1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 tha \7ir k?t i n ; reparc.r^nt a : r standard kind o f produ ct. Q Go p a rt o f your f u n c t io n , th e n , was to tr y to c:e i jLie what tha m arket was th e r e anJ make su re th a t your r e s e a r c h e f f o r t s w ou ic :^esp pace w ith what would be needed or was needed? A " h a t1 -: r i g h t , a n t i c i p a t e w hat th e n eed s wnl'4 b e, t h a t 's r i^ h t . But the word i s gu id an ce and n o t d i r e c t . Wv d i d n ' t d i r e c t r e s e a r c h . -T h at was done by o th e rs. Q What, i s th e d i f f e r e n c e betw een g u id a n ce and d ir e c tio n ? A W ell, to o ffe r guidance you'd sa y , i t would be a p p ro p ria te to have a product th a t cou ld do t h is ar.cf t h i s and t h i s . The d i r e c t io n w ould b e , y o u ' l l co work th a t w i l l g iv e you a p ro d u ct t o go t h i s and t h i s ar.d t h i s . We c o u ld n 't do t h a t . The r e s e a r c h people would ca rry out the d ir e c t io n , the management o f th e f u n c t io n . We d i d n ' t manage the fu n c tio n o f research a t th a t tim e. Q In oth er w ords, you c o u ld n 't t e l l the r e s e a r c h p eop le in th e v a r io u s a r e a s w hat t c do? You sim p ly su g g ested what ought to be done? A Yeah, th a t's a good way to. put i t . We c e r t a i n l y n e v e r t o l d them how t o do i t . Q A l l r i g h t . You n e v e r t o l d them how t o J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 17 it .1 - . 1 go a b o u t d o in g i n 7 I n o*:hn:r w o r \ - , t h i s was. l<*t up 2 t o some o t h e r - - Who w ould t h a t be l e f t up to ? 3 A R esearch management i t s e l f . 4 Q Wow, a s A s s i s t a n t D i r e c t o r o f D e v e lo p 5 ment of the O rganic Chem icals D iv isio n you were p rim a rily 6 re s p o n s ib le fo r th e ru b b er end o f M onsanto's b u sin e ss 7 in th is fu n ctio n of providing guidance fo r research ? 8 A And a l s o a b ro a d e r ra n g e o f f u n c t i o n a l 9 p r o d u c ts t h a t th e O rg a n ic C h e m ic a ls D i v i s i o n was cre.nu10 f a c t u r i n g an d s e l l i n g a t t h a t tim e . 11 0 W ere you r e s p o n s i b l e f o r a n y h e r b i c i d e s ? 12 A Mot in, th o s e d a y s . I became th e 13 D i r e c t o r in 1956 and re m a in e d t h e r e u n t i l I 9 6 0 , a n d a t 14 t h a t tim e , t h e n , a l l o f th e g r o u p s , o f w h ic h we had a 15 p e s t i c i d e g ro u p a s a p a r t o f , same s o r t o f f u n c t i o n , 1 w h a t a r e th e n e e d s a n c th e p ro b le m s , w h a t a r e th e p e r 17 fo rm an ce r e q u ir e m e n ts a n d th e n a l s o w o rk in g w i t h c u s 18 to m ers on t h a t p o i n t . Same s o r t o f p r i n c i p l e s , 19 Q I n 1954 you became A s s i s t a n t D i r e c t o r 20 o f Developm ent? 21 A T h a t 's r i g h t . 22 Q How lo n g d id you s t a y A s s i s t a n t 23 D i r e c t o r o f D ev elo p m en t? '-- 24 A U n til '56. 25 V- . ' **;*?. ` * Q D uring th e p e r io d o f tim e *54 t o *56 JA M E S MAY R EPO R TIN G SER VIC E Jr 4 'i 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 d i r you have a n y re p p o n < - ;ib llity f e y t '.v-- pro.*'net ." ,4 ,5 - T from the N itro f e c ility ? A No. Q Was i t a f u n c t i o n ^ '. iroduc*tV A Sure. I t 's a h erb icid e. Q L uring th a t p erio d '5 4 to '56 In your d e p artm e n t, I g u e ss, y o u 'd c a l l i t th e em erging Depart-" mer.t o f D evelopm ent, I su p p o se , who was r e s p o n s ib le f o r the func tio n a 1 produe t 2 ,4 ,5 -T? A W e ll, l e t ' s s e e , I t h i n 1- i t was a n a r t i c l e o f commerce a t t h a t tim e . I sa y , I th in k i t w as. I r e c a l l i t w as. So t h a t would have been a fu n c tio n o f whoever was th e S ales >fanager f o r p e s tic id e s a t th a t p e r i o d . I t may have b een b o r s c h . >,'h a t was T.ed " o r s c h 's f i r s t name? Q C. ?. Lcrsch? A Y e s. I t c o u ld have b een a man named P a u l E c k b e rg , who I th in k w rs Z o r s c h 's b o s s . T h a t 's th e b e s t th a t I can remember. Q 2 ,4 ,5 - T , a c c o rd in g to your memory, was a n a r t i c l e o f commerce d u r i n g th e p e r i o d '5 4 t o VS6 b u t i t was s t i l l a fu n c tio n a l p ro d u ct? A Oh, y e ah . Q And a s such the Department of-.D evelopment f o r th e O rganic C h em icals D i v i s i o n c a r r ie d o u t some J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E It *1 * 19 1 f u l i CI o:: i u c onn s 2 A *.'j . S o . I.: i t \-j-*r -. th* c noioerc ia 1 3 p ro d u c t, i t would be th e r e s p o n s ib ility of the M arketing 4 people, 5 Q So during the period '54 to '56 the 6 Development Department lad noth ing w hatsoever to do w ith 7 2,4,5--? 8 A r iist's ay r e c o lle c tio n because our 9 r o le chare was to lo o k f o r and c o m m e r c ia liz e new h e r b i10 c id a L*, 11 Q And you had no f u n c t i o n t o p l a y i n : 12 th e p e r f e c t i o n o f a n e x i s t i n g h e r b i c i d e t h a t was n o t 13 f u n c t i o n a l l y p e r f e c t a s y e t? 14 A T h a t 's r i g h t . 15 0 T h a t was a t a s k c o m p le te ly o u t s i d e 16 y o u r a r e a ? 17 A Uh huh ( y e s ) . S e e , I m e n tio n e d 18 e a r l i e r t o you t h a t when C om m ercial D ev elo p m en t b r o u g h t 19 t h i n g s to a p o i n t w h e re , you know, t h e y c o u ld be s o l d , 20 we knew who t h e c u s to m e rs c o u ld be a n d w e 'd a c t u a l l y 21 make some e a r l y s a l e s w i t h them j u s t f o r , you m ig h t s a y f 22 p ro o f. A t th a t p o in t th e re would be an agreem ent th a t 23 th e p r o d u c t w ould be t r a n s f e r r e d t o th e M a r k e tin g De 24 p a r tm e n t. A t t h a t tim e t h a t was a p r e t t y s t a n d a r d 25 p r a c t i c e . v / '* ' " JA M E S MAY R EPO R TIN G SER VIC E Ji Ak 20 1 'i 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q When was fi d e c i s i o n made t o s h i p 2,4,5-T from Development to Marketing? A I d o n 't r e c a l l . I t would have been done some time b e f o r e I moved t o S t . L o u i s , I ' m s u r e , b u t I d o n ' t know t h a t . Q Some time p r i o r t o 1954? A I would imagine so. Q What c r i t e r i a e x i s t e d a t t h a t p o i n t in time for s h if tin g a product from Development to Marketing? A When p r o o f e x i s t e d t h a t i t was a saleable product, i t performed the function intended and t h a t t h e r e was a s t r o n g l i k e l i h o o d t h a t m a n u f a c t u r i n g on an a p p r o p r i a t e l y larg e enough s c a le would r e s u l t in c o s t s t h a t would a l l o w a p p r o p r i a t e p r o f i t s t o be made, and then these were decisions th a t were u su a lly a rriv e d a t a f t e r c o n s u l t a t i o n among the D i r e c t o r s of the Departraents of Development, Marketing, Research, probably Manufacturing, Engineering and, I guess, presided over and b l e s s e d by whoever was th e G e n era l Manager. T hat was the p a t t e r n o f b r i n g i n g t h in g s i n t o th e m a rk e tp l a c e . I t was a d i v i s i o n o f l a b o r t h a t worked v e r y w e l l . Q Would the D i r e c t o r o f R e se arch a t N i t r o between 1950 and '5 4 be a k in d o f p e rso n who w ould have been in an th e d e c is io n to s h i f t a new JAM ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE It *1 21 p ro d u c t, lik e , 2 ,4 ,5 -T from Development to M arketing? A W ell, he c e rta in ly could have been, b u t as I r e c a l l , th e r e s p o n s ib ility fo r the management o f th e A g r i c u l t u r a l - - w h at d i d we c a l l them -- i t was A g ric u ltu ra l P roducts Group. T hat r e s p o n s ib ility re s te d fo r the most p a rt in S t. L ouis, and th e N itro lo ca tio n tp was sim p ly a c o n v e n ie n t p lac e w here th e r e s e a r c h c o u ld be c a r r i e d o u t and in some instances -- th e y d i d n 't make a l l th e a g r i c u l t u r a l p ro d u cts th e r e . But t h a t work was e s s e n tia lly decided upon from S t. L o u is, I'm q u ite ' c e r ta in , and th e N itro R esearch D ire c to r would have taken a sub o rd in an t, an im portant but subordinant ro le . Q D uring the tim e you were A s s is ta n t R e s e a rc h D i r e c t o r , 1950 to *51, w ould you know w h e th e r 2 ,4 ,5 -T was s h if te d from D evelopm ent to M arketing? A I d o n 't know. I d o n 't have any r e c o l l e c t i o n o f t h a t . I j u s t d i d n 't know enough a b o u t i t to have any. you ask? Q I f you w an ted t o f i n d o u t , who w ould A W ell, i hpve no idea where Paul E ckberg is . Z orsch m ight know. I p ro b ab ly would s t a r t th e re . Q The c r i t e r i a f o r s h i f t i n g a- p rod u ct from Development to M arketing has bean d e sc r ib a d a fl d eterm in in g w hether i t was fu n c t io n a lly p e r fe c te d , I JAM ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SER VIC E  ** 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 s u p p o s e , I t wou ld do v;ha t i t was s u p p o s e d t o do? A Uh huh ( y e s ) . Q Was t n e r e a l s o a n y c o n s i d e r a t i o n given to toxicology? A Yes, I'm c e r ta in th ere was. Q Do you know i f t h e r e was? A No, I d o n ' t know - - I don* t know t h a t as a fact. Q During the time t h a t you were A s s i s t a n t Research D i r e c t o r , 1950 to *51, did you take any p art in s h if tin g a product of any kind from Development to Marketing? A Yes. They would be rubber chem icals. Q When you t o o k a r o l e i n s h i f t i n g a rubber chemical from Development to Iterketing, did you make a n y i n q u i r y a b o u t w h e t h e r I t was t o x i c o l o g i c a l l y a p p r o p r i a te to be r e l e a s e d f o r s a le ? A Yes, t h a t was done t h r o u g h Dr . Emmet K e lly . A t t h a t time the M edical D epartm ent was what we c a l l e d a f r e e s t a n d i n g c o r p o r a t e s t a f f d e p a r t m e n t , a n d D r. K e l l y w o u ld h a v e b een t h e i n d i v i d u a l t o whom p e o p le t h a t r e p o r t e d t o me wcxild have been w o r k i n g w ith over tim e. A gain, t h a t was c a r r ie d o n _ at r a th e r more a rm 's le n g t h , as I r e c a l l . Q What r o l e d id you p la y when you w ere JAM ES MAY REPO R TIN G SERVICE 1 A s s i s t a n t Research D ire c to r i;. th ic a sc e rta in m e n t of 2 the to x ic o lo g y of a product you were g e t t i n g ready to 3 move from Dev elopm en t t o M a r k e t i n g ? 4 A Well, the ro le would have been to 5 have made c e r t a i n t h a t t h e M e d i c a l D e p a r t m e n t was 6 ap p ro p riately informed of our in te n tio n to , f i r s t of 7 a l l , te s t the product. 8 Q To make c e r t a i n t h e y knew t h e y were 9 going to t e s t or you would be t e s t i n g i t ? 10 A No. They were t e s t i n g i t . We d i d n ' t 11 h a v e o u r own t o x i c o l o g y L a b o r a t o r i e s a t t h a t t i m e , s o 12 t h a t was done in a c o n t r a c t u a l way between the m edical 13 group and that outside laboratory. 14 Q Did you know i n 1950 a nd ' 5 1 what 15 t e s t i n g meant i f you s e n t a p r o d u c t o r i n q u i r e d a b o u t . 16 a p r o d u c t t o s e e i f i t had been t e s t e d f o r t o x i c o l o g i c a l 17 p u r p o s e s , what d i d c h a t mean t o you? 18 A I t ' s h a r d t o p u t m y s e l f b a c k a t 19 t h a t p e r i o d o f tim e b e c a u s e I know a l o t more a b o u t i t 20 t o d a y . 21 Q I r e a l i z e t h a t . 22 A W ell, f i r s t of a l l , I 'm c e r t a i n t h a t 23 we wo uld have been c o n c e r n e d , I know t h a t D r, R a ll y 24 w o u ld have b e en c o n c e r n e d , t h a t t h a m a t e r i a l w i t h 25 a p p r o p r i a t e p r e c a u t i o n s would h av e b e e n s a f e f o r t h e JAM ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE w orkers t o h a n d l e . I know t h a t in cer:js of r u b b e r c h e m i c a l s many o f them were f i n e l y d i v i d e d powders, 200 mesh o r t h e r e a b o u t s , a n c , t h e r e f o r e , t h e r e was a l o t of s k i n c o n t a c t a n d d u s t and t h e l i k e ; and I know t h a t in those days t h e i r concern was c e r t a i n l y f o r them , f o r t h e w o r k e r s . As t o t h e n a t u r e o f th e t o x i cology te s ts th a t were cone, I must adm it th a t a t th a t p o i n t i n time I d o n ' t b e l i e v e t h e t h o u g h t c r o s s e d my mind as to what kind of to x ic o lo g y t e s t s were done. Q Do you know i f i t i n c l u d e d a s e a r c h o f t h e l i t e r a t u r e a t th e time on a p a r t i c u l a r p r o d u c t or substances th at went in to the aanufacturing product? A I'm supposing i t did. Q As f a r a s you know, t h i s p r o c e s s t h a t you went through on the su b stan ce t h a t you were i n volved in moving from Development to M a rk e tin g , was t h a t in keeping w ith company p o lic y a t the time? A Yes. Q then, right? Nothing unusual about th at process, A No. Q You would h ave e x p e c t e d i t t o be done with any product? -- A Yes. Q Did you e v e r have a p ro d u ct r e je c te d JAM ES MAY R EPORTING SERVICE t 1 on t ox ic o 1og ica 1 gr ound -? 2 A Yes. 3 Q What pro d u c t va ? t h a t ? 4 A I don' t remember. These would be 5 compounds t h a t would be s t i l l in the e a r l y s y n t h e s i s s tage. 7 Q I use the term " r e j e c t e d ," of course, 8 in a v e r y b r o a d g e n e r a l s e n s e . Was t h e p r o d u c t s e n t 9 back to you for f u r t h e r work or fo r c o r r e c t i o n s or th a t 10 k i n d o f t h i n g ? 11 A W e l l , i n t h e s p i r i t o f your q u e s t i o n 12 i t wo uld seem t o me t h a t - - and i n t h e ?A? s i t u a t i o n - 13 Q Yeah. U A I t h i n k when i t was d e te r m i n e d t h a t 15 PAB was t h e a c t o r i t became, I know t h a t t h e s u b j e c t 16 o f t o x i c i t y o f t h i n g s l i k e ben? i d i n a dyes from ar. e a r 17 l i e r p e r i o d o f t i m e , I know t h a t vra s a m a t t e r o f r e a s o n 18 a b l e knowle dg e e v en among some o f t h e c h e m i s t s . 3 u t 19 you have t o u n d e r s t a n d t h a t back in t h e e a r l y *40* s 20 our kno wledge o f a n d o ur c o n c e r n f o r th in g s t h a t a r e a 21 m a t t e r o f c o u r s e t o d a y d i d n o t e x i s t . We were c o n c e r n e d 22 a b o u t s k i n c o n t a c t , lu n g c o n t a c t , e ye c o n t a c t , and 23 e v e r y o n e was v e r y d i l i g e n t on t h o s e p o i n t s . -- On th e 24 more c h r o n i c i s s u e s , n o t t h a t much was known. .B u t I 25 do r e c a l l t h a t we would l o o k a t c e r t a i n c h e m ic a ls in JAM ES MAY R EPORTING SERVICE I 1 e a r l y t e e ! * in r u b b e r a ' " ' wc 1 " s a y , that vork? 2 v e r y w e l l b u t t h a t t h i n g ' s tor t o x i c and we a r e n o t 3 g o i n g t o do t h a t o n e , we* 11 f i n d ^nn t 'a t ' s n o t . 4 Q So on t h e o c c a s i o n c'. .bat you r e c a l l 5 when a p r o d u c t t h a t was a c a n d i d a t e f o r removal from 6 Development t o H a r k e t i n g , thi. r e j e c t i o n was b ased on 7 some t o x i c o', o g i c a 1 c^p-c i d e r a t i ^ n - - 8 1 W ell, t h a t was c e r t a i n l y one c r i t e r i o n 9 cha t would bs u s e d , y t >. 10 0 And would you t h e n s e t a b o u t t o e i t h e r 11 c o r r e c t tlv* r p ro b lem w i t h i n t h e p r o d u c t i t s e l f o r s h i f t 12 t o a '..`O th e r p r o d u c t , i s t h a t t h e k i n d o f t h i n g s y o u ' d do? 13 A You'd a l m o s t n e v e r c o r r e c t t h a t . You*, 14 have t o s h i f t t o a n o t h e r product. 15 Q And, a g a i n , Cher* ua-> n o t h i n g u n u s u a l 16 a b o u t t h a t ? I f i t cs':*: up t n u x c o l o g i c a l l y unsou:.:*, 17 th en no r e a l d e c i s i u n would be made, r i g h t ? 18 A W e l l , y e a h , th e d e c i s i o n w ould be 19 mrce n o t t o do i t . 20 Q T h a t ' s w h a t I m ea nt. 21 A. Yeah, I know. 22 Q And t h a t was t r u e i n 1950 and ' 5 1 when 23 you were th e A s s i s t a n t R e s e a r c h D i r e c t o r ? -- 24 A Yes. - * Tn* . 25 Q O.K. Y o u ' r e t h e A s s i s t a n t R esearch JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE It . 1r 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 - 1 D irector of Development for the Organic Chenica Is Division in 1954 t o , did you sa y , ' 56? A Uh huh ( y e s ) . Q Ana in *56 d i d you become D i r e c t o r ? A Yes. Q Same t y p e o f wo rk , i n c r e a s e d r e s p o n s ib ilitie s , right? A Yes, t h a t 's c o rre c t. Q Would t h e h e r b i c i d e s and p e s t i c i d e s , then, have been under your su p e rv isio n , or whatever, to the extent of the development? A Right. Q did that last? And you g o t t h a t j o b in ' 5 6 . How lo n g A U ntil 1960. Q All rig h t. During th at four-year p e rio d was any c h l o r i n a t e d phenol or any p ro d u c t t h a t was a c o n s e q u e n c e o f some i n t e r m e d i a t e s t e p i n v o l v i n g the c h lo rin a tio n of phenols or c h lo rin a tio n of a benzene ring under your supervision in the Development Department of the Organic Chemicals Division? A Any c h l o r i n a t e d phenol - - Q chlorophenol. L e t me make i t e a s i e r . L ik e , a p e n t a - A Yes. JAM ES MAY R EPORTING SERVICE t* _ %. 28 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 .1 7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Trichlorophenol? A I t h i n k t r i c h l o r o p h e n o l was an a r t i c l e of commerce. I t would not have been in the development, the procuct in the department for development i t s e l f , but penta was. Q During the period '56 to 1960 penta - c h l o r o p h e n o l was in the d evelopm ent s t a g e ? A There were some u s e s f o r p e n t a i n wood t r e a t i n g t h a t were p a r t o f t h e d e v e l o p m e n t r o l e , as I r e c a l l i t . I t had been an a r t i c l e of commerce f o r some time f o r o t h e r u s e s , and I ' m f u z z y on what t h o s e w e r e . But p en ta was an e f f e c t i v e wood t r e a t i n g chemica 1. Q So t h a t I ' l l u n d e r s ta n d a l i t t l e more about the d is tin c tio n between the substance in develop ment and one in commerce or in m ark e t, I g u e s s , i t would be p o s s i b l e f o r a s u b s t a n c e t o be b o t h in d e v e l opment and in commerce a t the same time? A For d i f f e r e n t u ses, uh huh (yes). Q D u ri n g this p e r i o d ' 5 6 t o *60 do you know i f t r i c h l o r o p h e n o l was in t h a t d u a l c a p a c i t y ? A I don't think so. Q As f a r a s you know, i t w a s-e x c l u s i v e l y a fu n c tio n a l product a lre a d y in the m arket? t ' ;? ; k * . . , A W ell, I guess I would look a t JAM ES MAY R EPORTING SERVICE 1 *C 1 tric l'iio ropher.nl as an incermo iia ta fo r other eking? to 2 be maca from . I a o n ' t r e c a l l i t e v - r s *J a 'j^e of i t ? own. 3 Q T h a t ' s the s p i r i t of my q u e s t i o n . 4 T r i c h i o r o p h e n o l , w h e t h e r i t may have been an end p r o d u c t 5 i t s e l f or an i n t e r m e d i a t e in t h e p r o d u c t i o n of some end 6 p r o d u c t , as f a r as you know, d u r i n g '5 6 t o *60 t r i c h l o r o 7 p henol or m y p r o c e s s t h a t was a s s o c i a t e d w i t h was n o t 8 in t h e d e v " 1"'lment s t a g e a t Monsanto? 9 That's rig h t. 10 Q And c o n t i n u i n g i n t h a t same v e i n , 11 how a b o u t o r t h o c h l o r o p h e n o l ? 12 A We had a g e r m i c i d e g r o u p in d e v e l o p 13 m e n t , b u t my mind d o e s n ' t r e c a l l now - - L ' i d n ' c we c a l l 14 t h a t a n t o p h e n ? 15 Q Yes. 16 A I d o n ' t know. I t h i n k t h a t hac t o 17 be an a r t i c l e of commerce. I c e r t a i n l y d o n ' t remember 18 us d o i n g a n y t h i n g w i t h i t . We were l o o k i n g f o r o t h e r 19 g e rm ic i d e s . 20 Q So your r e c o l l e c t i o n i s d u r i n g '5 6 21 t o *60 S a n t o p h e n was a p r o d u c t t h a t was in commerce and 22 n o t n e c e s s a r i l y in your d e v e lo p m e n t a r e a , r i g h t ? 23 A Y es. We w ere w o rk in g m o r e - w ith , l i k e , 24 t r i c h l o r o c a r b a n i l i d e , TCC, i n t h o s e d a y s t o f i n d a p p l i 25 c a t i o n f o r g e r m i c i d e s i n s o a p s . JAM ES MAY R EPORTING SERVICE li 3< 1 Q TCC ? 2 A Trichlorocarbanilide. 3 Q That's not a trichlorophenol? 4 A No. 5 Q Now, d u r i n g t h e time t h a t you were 6 D irector of Development did the p a rtic u la r function of 7 p e n ta c h lo r o p h e n o l t h a t you were lo o k in g a t in a d e v e l o p 8 ment s e n s e , does i t need some d e v e l o p m e n t t o m a r k e t? 9 A I don't think so. I haven't thought 10 a b o u t t h a t in a w h i l e , so I c a n ' t remember. 11 Q . K . D u r i n g t h a t p e r i o d of time d i d 12 you become aware of a n y t o x i c o l o g y r e l a t i n g t o p e n t a 13 c h l o r o p h e n o l ? 14 A No. 15 Q Wast h a t n o t ac o n s i d e r a t i o n or some 16 t h i n g t h a t you j u s t w e r e n ' t aware of? 17 A W ait as e c o n d . You s a i d was I a w are 18 o f t o x i c o l o g y . Do you mean w h e t h e r I was a w are o f a n y 19 t o x i c e f f e c t s ? 20 Q Yes . 21 A W e l l , in t h e s p i r i t o f you r q u e s t i o n , 22 I g u e ss I ' d s a y no b e c a u s e , a f t e r a l l , i f i t ' s a wood 23 p r e s e r v a t i v e , i t ' s g o i n g t o k i l l t e r m it e s . But c e r t a i n l y 24 from a p o i n t o f view o f human t o x ic o lo g y or im pact on 25 humans, th e a n s w e r was n o . We b e lie v e d i t t o be a s a f e JAM ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE Jl 1I 1 produc t . 2 Q Wha t a b o o t a n im al s t u d i e s ? 3 A I c a n 't answer that. I ju st don't 4 remember. 5 Q I assume th a t during th is period of 6 time when e p r o d u c t is in the developm ent s t a g e , t h a t 7 t h e r e a r e a number of t h i n g s g o i n g on a t t h e same t i m e , 8 sou'r'* t r y i n g t o p e rfe .cc a p r o d u c t and a t t h e same time 9 t h e r e may be some t o x i c o l o g i c a l i n q u i r y i n t o t h e p r o d u c t 10 s o t h a t i f th e p r o d u c t would t h e n come on l i n e f o r move 11 ment i n t o t h m a r k e t , t h e s e t h i n g s would h o p e f u l l y k in d 12 o f come t o g e t h e r and make a d e c i s i o n , i s t h a t s o r t o f 13 t h e way i t goes? 14 A W e l l , y e s . You c e r t a i n l y would n o t 15 go o u t t o a g roup of c u s t o m e r s w i t h o u t t h a t k n o w l e d g e , 16 and w h i l e i t was n o t - - W e l l , t h a t know l e d g e was n o t 17 a s e x t e n s i v e a s i t i s t o d a y , i t was s t i l l i n term s o f 18 s t a t e of t h e a r t and s t a t e o f th e t h i n k i n g a b o u t t h a t 19 p a r t of t h e s o c i a l r e s p o n s i b i l i t y t h a t you h a d . 20 Q So a n y t h i n g t h a t you knew a b o u t i t 21 w i t h i n r e a s o n you would i m p a r t t o t h e p o t e n t i a l c u s t o m e r s 22 in a t o x i c o l o g i c a l s e n s e in term s o f harm t o humans? 23 A I t would be w h a t ' s c a l l e d -the l a b e l . 24 How t o u s e i t , so on. 25 Q I f you knew some o f y o u r p r o c e s s JAM ES MAY REPO R TIN G SERVICE !i a > 32  * 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 w o rk e r? w ere d e v e lo p in g a r a s h or bumps or p im p les d u r- i n g t h e m a n u f a c t u r i n g p r o c e s s o f orne p r o d u c t , w o u l d t h a t be s o m e th in g t h a t w ould a p p e a r on th e l a b e l ? A T h a t' s a funny way to a sk a q u e s tio n , t h o u g h . We w o u l d b e m o r e c o n c e r n e d f r o m t h e l a b e l ' s p o i n t of view of w hat th e f in is h e d p ro d u c t, th e fo rm a tio n , would be ta k e n o u t o f th e c o n t a i n e r , how th a t w o u ld a ffe c t th e derma t o l o g v o f th e u s e r . !iow, th e p o t e n t i a l e x p o s u r e o f a w orker due to in term ed ia te s or w h a te v er would be somewhat d i f f e r e n t . I f yo u ' re a s k in g i t Jn th e ca se o f th e u s e r , I th in k t h a t was in the know ledge of th e s t a t e o f th e a r t , i t alw ays has been our co n cern and th a t would be th e c o n c e rn l a r g e l y a t t h a t p o in t in tim e . The m edi- c a l group was q u i t e r ig o r o u s on t h a t . The p l a n t p h y s ic ia n had i t as h is r e s p o n s ib ility to see to i t th a t w orker e x p o s u re was h e ld to a minimum. D e a lin g w ith s h o r t - term e f f e c t s is one th in g . D e a lin g w ith lo n g e r-te rm e ffe c ts is som ething e ls e , and th a t's som ething th a t's d e v e lo p e d in th e l a s t fo u r or f i v e y e a rs w ith a l o t more c l a r i t y t h a n we u s e d t o know a b o u t . Q D uring the developm ent sta g e o f one o f th e s e p r o d u c ts who w ould make th e d e c i s i o n a b o u t w h a t w o u ld a p p e a r on a l a b e l a n d w h a t w o u ld n 't in -term o f t h e human r i s k ? A *. W e l l , r e m e m b e r , t h e r e was no EPA. JAM ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE It 33 The U. S. D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l t u r e - - Y o u ' r e s m i l i n g . 0 I t seems l i k e v e ' v>: a l w a y s had an EPA. A Yeah, i t r o e s <;p -t l i k e w e ' v e a 1wavs had i t . The D e p a r t m e n t o f Ag was i n v o l v e d . I c e r t a i n l y was never t h a t c lo se to i t , so from a p e rso n a l p o in t of view I c a n ' t t e s t i f y on t h a t . Our own l a b e l s i n s o f a r as I 'm r e c a l l i n g were p r e t t y c a r e f u l l y s c r u t i n i z e d by our Medical Department. Q I t would be the M edical Departm ent th a t would have th a t respor.s i b i l i t y ? A Yeah. Q And t h a t would have been in t h e p e r i o d A As long a s I c an remember. Q And d u r i n g t h e p e r i o d l e t ' s s a y , 1951 through 1960, would t h a t have been Dr. Kelly? A Uh huh ( y e s ) . Q Would t h a t have been t o d e t e r m i n e w h e t h e r a w o r k e r e x p o s u r e t h a t may have c a u s e d a d e r m a t i t i i f the causative agent existed in the finished product, would t h a t be one of the th in g s t h e y 'd have to determ ine? A Uh huh ( y e s ) . Q And i f i t d i d , t h e n you w ould e x p e c t s o m e t h i n g l i k e t h a t t o a p p e a r on a l a b e l , r i g h t ? A I f i t were th a t se r io u s, th at product 4 *** p V % ** * f * p ro b a b ly w ould be r e s t r i c t e d and i t w o u ld n 't a p p e a r on a JAM ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE 1 labe 1. 2 q T i nt-v-/; word*?, t h * -rod'.:c w o u l d n ' t 3 a ppear? 4 A That's right. 5 Q Much l e s s th* l a b e l ? A That* s r i g h t . 7 Q And would t h a t r ec o m m e n d atio n be 8 something th at would cone out of the Medical Department? 9 A Uh huh ( y e s ) . 10 Q And in f a c t would t h a t be t h e k i n d 11 o f a recommenda t i o n t h a t we we re t a l k i n g a b o u t e a r l i e r 12 when you were t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e c r i t e r i a o f when a 13 p r o d u c t would s a f e l y move from d e v e l o p m e n t t o m a r k e t? 14 A Uh huh ( y e s ) . 15 Q So you would e x p e c t a p r o b l e m l i k e l t h a t n o t t o make th e f i n a l c u t and be s e n t b a c k t o d e 17 v e l o p m e n t f o r e i t h e r f u r t h e r work or - - 18 A W e l l , w h a t e v e r wasn eed ed t o c o r r e c t 19 t h e s i t u a t i o n . I f i t vare i n t r i n s i c w i t h t h e p r o d u c t 20 i t s e l f , t h a t p r o d u c t would n o t be c o m m e r c i a l i z e d . 21 Q And n o t h i n g u n u s u a l sbout t h a t , t h a t 22 was j u s t s t a n d a r d p r o c e d u r e a t t h a t tim e ? 23 A That's rig h t. -- 24 Q And I assume i t became mores t a n d a r d 25 a s tim e w ent on? JAM ES MAY R EPORTING SERVICE Ir 1 A Ve have for;v? ' i~ ed the ^ i t u s t i on r.ov 2 to the nth degree. 3 0 low, you were th'i M r t o r of v e I o n 4 raen t o f Organic C h e m ic a ls from 1956 t o ' 60. What 5 happened to you n ext? 6 A Then I cloved t o R e se a rc h in the 7 O r g a n ic Chenica ' r D i v i s i o n and became D i r e c t o r o f Re - 8 wa i- t h e r e f o r t w o y e a r s . 9 0 r r o ; ; ; COT)f t i m e i n :L 9 6 0 t o 6 2 ? 10 A A p r i l 11 Q i'Cr.' t v i t a t d i d t h a t j o b i n v o l v e , w h a t 12 t h e r c - 7 13 A We 1 1 , t h e r e s e a r c h r o l e t h e n w a s t o 14 work on b o t h new p r o d u c t s and p r o c e s s e s f o r new p r o d u c t ? . , 15 work on p r o c e s s improvement o f e x i s t i n g p r o d u c t s , a s s i s t 1 M a n u f a c t u r i n g i n w o r k i n g on d u a l i t y p r o b l e m s , y i e l d 17 p r o b l e m s , c o s t problems and p r e s u m a b l y t r y t o -- I was 18 g o i n g t o g e t some o f my own m e d i c i n e , you s e e , h a v i n g 19 ccme from t h e d e v e l o p m e n t s i d e - - t o work in harmony 20 w i t h Developm ent t o g e t as much i n s i g h t a s p o s s i b l e i n 21 w h a t we c a l l -- I f l l g i v e you a n i c e t e r m - - th e window 22 o f an t i c ipa t i o n . The whole id ea was c o u l d we a n t i c i p a t e 23 p ro b lem s t h a t p e o p le would h a v e , c u s to m e rs would h a v e , 24 b e f o r e t h e y knew a b o u t them t h e m s e l v e s . T h a t t s f a i r 25 c o m p e t i t i o n . So w i t h t h a t k i n d o f t h i n g you would th e n JAM ES MAY R EPORTING SERVICE %If * ** 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 a p p r o a c h t h e c u 'tnrry-r and o f t e n t l a u s , vo'j cviov l f * e t h e a l c o h o l ! ' who dirtier- h .kriV.c , '' ic t o \ ? : r , " I d r . ' t h a v e a n y p ro b lem l i ce t h a t ; n u t i f y o ; ^ ^ o r o o l '-'m ] ike t h a t , h i r e ' s an a p p r o a c h t o i t . " Wv s t i l l do t h a t i n more s op h i s t i c s te d wa ys. Anyway, D i r e c t o r o f h e - s e a r c h ws - r e s p o n s i b l e f o r the management o f t h a t whole d i v i s i o n . "h? t war the whole f u n c tio n of R esearch. That r *'" -n -wh. r--. 4 G0 p e o p l e a t t h a t t i m e . *, At t i if p e riod., 1961 to *32, the I-ir.ro piar.t stil': w ithin the Organic Chemicals? 6 Ye, i r wa~. 0 Ar.J this produ< t *" , A , 5 - T would f a l l x: i t h i n the* f r g a n i u C h e m i c a l s D i v i s i o n , t h e n ? A Ye? , i t d i d . A.r.d d i e you s u p e r v i s e a n y e f f o r t : d u r i n g th e p- r i o d \ ^ r r t o 6? co improve t h e 2 , 4 , 5 - T p r oc c ? ? A Wait a m in u te . The A g r i c u l t u r a l , wka t was c a l l e d the Agr i c u l t u r s ' Company-- i t was th e n c a l l e d the A g r i c u l t u r a l P ro d u cts D i v i s i o n , was formed i n e a r l y ' 6 0 . I had j u s t come a b o a r d a s D i r e c t o r , and you can c h e c k t h e r e c o r d s on i t . My memory s a y s i t was v e r y s h o r t l y t h e r e a f t e r t h a t t h e new d i v i s io rr-v a s fo rm e d , and the person th a t had been re s p o n sib le f o r , a s a n A s s i s t a n t D i r e c t o r f o r A g r i c u l t u r a l P r o d u c ts , moved o v e r, JAM E S MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE Ji * ' 37 11 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 b e c a ^ t h e d i r e c t o r n f R e '- e a r cl'. f o r c h r d cj A g r i c u l t u r a l P r o d u c t s D i v i s i o n . TA? t- h - rv,/ v,.pr- *.*' T h a t d i v i s i or was c? r v**d up fr"*:o p a r t tr:-= Or gar. ic Chemicals Division for p e stic id e s and f e r t i l i s e r s . T h a t came o u t o f w h at was t h e n th e I n o r g a n i c Ch e m ica ls D iv ision. A* 7 !m t became an A s s i s t a n t D i r e c t o r of R e s e a r c h , t h a t p or i t i o n y o u ' r e t a l k i n g a b o u t ? A h o . That became a D i r e c c o r of r e s e a r c h for the A g ricu ltu ral Products Division. Q And was t h a t p e r s o n ? A T h a t v;as Dr. R i c k a r d Gordon. Q Now, d u r i n g t h i s p e r i o d o f t i m e , ' 6 0 to '6 2 , th e n , you had n o c o n n e c tio n a t a l l w ith 2 ,4 ,5 -T ? A (fliakc-s head n e g a t i v e l y . ) Q And c u r i n g cite p e r i o d o f time c h a t y o u ' r e in N i t r o you liac no c o n n e c t i o n a t a l l w i t h 2 , 4 , 5 - T ? A Huh uh ( n o ) . T h a t ' s c o r r e c t , I d i d n o t . Q You w o u l d n ' t have been k e p t a d v i s e d a b o u t what was g o i n g on in term s o f p r o d u c t problem s or anything like that? A I 'm s u re I was aware of t h in g s goin g on, but like a n y other things I paid sc a n t a tt e n t i o n to them. I c a n ' t s a y I d i d n ' t kne*?, l i k e anyone w o u ld -in a la r g e group, but no r e s p o n s ib ility . JAM ES MAY R EPORTING SERVICE 38 Jl 11 1 Q A n e a i t h i r d e v e ] o r p c r. t i d e a crew a t 2 Mo nsanto a n d p a r t i c u ' i r ' y the f u r . r t i r ' i r. v o I v i n g : r o " P c r. 3 i m p r o v e m e n t , you liWfT.-'M j u ^ t d i c r , 1 1 lia V' a n y kn o w* r d g e 4 a b o u t a n y p r o d u c t i m p r o v e m e n t p r o c e s r LI :VO! V in g ? ,L ,5 - 7 ? 5 $ e\ Ilia t * r i g h t. Q Kov , a s iciC- f r o m D r . Gord on who, I 7 a s s u m e , w Ou 1(. lis v e !_virv n a b o u t i t , i s t h a t r i g h t , o r 8 a t l e a s t , th a l \ Ol* I d h a v e b i e n p a r t o f h i s r e s p o n s i b i l i t y ? 9 A i t ' h i s r e s p o r s 1 b i ~ i t * 10 Q N o i - , i s h e d e a d ? 11 A K o . Hr * s n o l o n g e r w i t h t h e c o n n a r y . 12 Q D o y o u k n o w whr-n he 7 e f t t h e c 'Tor.any ? 13 A W a i t a m i n u t e . I nqde a mis ta k e . 14 The f i r s t D i r e c t o r o f the t h o , n o . Ihm r i e h t . T h e r e 15 was a n o th e r man t h a t had beer. 1tlr f\ o r.t a n tA . _ -* -> A . D irector of. 16 R e s e a r c h , b u t h e was n e t 4L-UUC ct o r ..* V ,. A. -- T h a t ' s my 17 own me mor y t h a t ' s c a t c h i n g u p wi th vJ me . Gord o n , h e *s 1e f t 18 M o n s a n t o . He does n 't l i v e i n S t . i o n i f. I d o n 1 1 k n ow 19 w h e re he i s . 20 Q A l l r i g h t . In 62 wha t h a p oe n e d ? 21 A W e l l , I moved t o become D i r e c t o r o f 22 M a r k e t i n g in t h e Organic D i v i s i o n . They were t r y i n g t o 23 f i n d a j o b I c o u l d h o l d . So I ' v e been p r e t t y much making 24 t h e c i r c u i t . I d i d t h a t f o r two y e a r s . 25 Q And a s D i r e c t o r o f M a rk etin g , th a t was JAM ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE > 39 1 f or t:h** nr ga r i i i_n pf> g I- **j i >;** 2 "1 ^ r' i .. V?J1-' " . 3 i An 1 cy t h r : t i * * -? v *; ro.?. " 2 1 a 4 n ew Ag r i e u l e u r a l ? r o.j uo c r. " i v i - i. ou ? 5 V'ia t lia '1 Ve-< c r e a t e d i n I 9 6 0 . 6 A So th-* 7,4,13-7 p r o d u c t was p a r t o f 7 tn-? Age in u 1 t u r n l D i ^ : U i o n 8 # ' -- liuk ^yf'j . 9 % And -.roul ' n o t have bonn u n d e r vour 10 d i r e c t o r s h i p o f r a r k e t i n g f o r Organic ? 11 / C o rre c t. 12 s Y O n t. O J M * ' . `i v . * ' h*~- J r i ',v` * t ' 5a 13 A g r i c u l t u r a l D i v i s i o n who would h w e he-jr D i r e c t o r o f U Marks ting? 15 A oil Tf . *uU.L: {/ y iS. ;% . 16 Do you wh n t ti. :: w ould have been? 17 A I t h i n k t h a t was ? = u l Y c k b ^ r g . 18 Q were chet.e t i l l -'One p r o d u c t s a t 19 h ' i t r o t h a t wetre u n d e r t h e O rg a n ic D i v i s i o n , o r was t h e 20 whole p l a n t moved i n t o t h ^ A g r i c u l t u r a l ? 21 A No, no. h e t ' c s e e , do you know a b o u t 22 h o s t - g u e s t r e l a t i o n s h i p ? 23 Q Y es. f o i n ' 6 2 , *64 you had t h a t k in d 24 of a s i t u a t i o n a t K itro ? 25 A Uh h >h ( y e s ) . So t h e A g r i c u l t u r a l JAM ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE it % > 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 D ivision would have been a guest a t th a t p la n t. Q O.K. What h a p p e n e d in '6 4 ? A W e l l, I moved t o th e I n t e r n a t i o n a l D i v i s i o n , a n d I moved o v e r a s A s s i s t a n t G e n e r a l Manager o f th e d i v i s i o n . I was t h e r e l i t e r a l l y f o r a few months and then became General Manager l a t e r t h a t year in *64. I was G en eral Manager ' t i l a b o u t ' 6 7 . P a r t o f t h a t time I l i v e d in B r u s s e l s , and I was made a C o r p o r a t e Vice President in January, '65. Q Now, y o u ' r e o u t o f t h e o p e r a t i o n d iv isio n s and a l l th a t. You're a corporate s t a f f o f f ic e r, i s t h a t where you would be as a C o r p o r a t e Vice P r e s i d e n t ? A In p a r t . The I n t e r n a t i o n a l D i v i s i o n a t th a t time had the r e s p o n s ib ility for managing a l l a s s e t s o u t s i d e t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s . Now, we managed them - and p a r t of the rea so n I went t h e r e was to o rg a n iz e th e In te rn a tio n a l Division from a ra th e r loose kind of con federation that supervised wholly-owned su b sid iaries t h a t p r e t t y much p a d d l e d t h e i r own c a n o e s , an d we made then the old domestic d iv isio n s, which the organic d i v i s i o n was a d o m e s t i c d i v i s i o n , we made them w o r l d wide in scope f o r p r o d u c t and p r o c e s s e s . The i n t e r n a t i o n a l group a c t u a l l y managed th o s e lo c a tio n s on b e h a lf of c e rta in operating d iv is io n s and looked a f te r the problems of operating businesses outside the U nited JAM ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE 11 A I 41 1 S ta te s where there were d i f f e r e n t language problems, 2 d iffe re n t currency problems, d iffe re n t legal problems 3 o f one k ind or t h e o t h e r . Our t h r u s t a t t h a t p o i n t A was FuroD e. The v a r i o u s h e a d s o f t h e s u b s i d i a r y com 5 panies th a t were outside the United S ta te s reported to 6 cue a t t h a t t i m e . 7 Q Any of t h o s e co m p an ies in v o lv e d in 8 the manufacture of herbicides? 9 A No. I b e l i e v e in t h a t p erio d of time 10 t h a t a l l h e r b i c i d e s were made i n t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s a nd 11 e x p o r t e d . I t h i n k t h a t ' s r i g h t . 12 Q A l l r i g h t . How l o n g w ere you a Vice 13 P r e s i d e n t w i t h t h o s e d u t i e s ? W A 'T il early '67. 15 Q Then w h at d i d t h e y do w i t h you? 16 A I came back t o S t . L o u is and I was 17 made Vice P r e s i d e n t f o r T e c h n o l o g y . 18 Q And i s t h a t c o r p o r a t e - - when I 19 s a y c o r p o r a t e l e v e l - 20 A T h a t ' s c o r p o r a t e , y e a h . 21 Q And what were you r e s p o n s i b l e f o r a s 22 Vice P r e s i d e n t f o r T e c h n o l o g y f o r , I g u e s s , a l l c o m p a n i e s , 23 r i g h t ? -- 2A A We have a d e c e n t r a l i z e d s y s t e m o f 25 r e s e a r c h an d d e v e lo p m e n t in th e c o r p o r a t i o n , an d e a c h o f JAM ES MAY R EPORTING SERVICE 1 * 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 ' 20 21 22 23 24 25 -- the operating units has a research function i t s e l f . T h a t h e a d , w h a t e v e r he may be c a l l e d , r e p o r t s t o th e l e a d e r of t h a t o r g a n i z a t i o n , w h a t e v e r he tray be c a l l e d . Today they a re c a lle d General Managers of Technology, and th e ir boss is called Managing D irec to r, but in those days they were D irector of and General Manager. That system s t i l l works, and so what you do is you have functional oversight resp o n sib ilities to see to it that indeed they were hopefully p ra c tic in g the s ta te of the a r t a s much a s p o s s i b l e , t h a t t h e y a r e a g g r e s s i v e i n looking f o r windows of a n t i c i p a t i o n and g e n e r a l l y tr y in g t o s e e t h a t t h e r e i s some s o r t o f c o n t i n u i t y and c o n siste n c y in the adoption of p o lic ie s and the like of th a t. That role as Corporate Vice P resident for Technology has always included a management r o l e , and w hat's c alled the Central Research function, which is a group somewhat in siz e about t h a t of an o p e ra tin g d i v is io n b u t i t has to have a home, and t h a t ' s where i t i s . And s o v e r y b r i e f l y , t h a t ' s t h e r o l e i t h a s . Y o u ' r e more c o n c e rn e d a b o u t p o l i c y , you* re l e s s c o n c e r n e d a b o u t opera tio n s . Q The idea t h a t ' s e x p re s s e d by windows of a n tic ip a tio n , is that an a ttitu d e t h a t y o u - th in k is a p a rt of Monsanto? Is th a t something you t r y and promote in the company? * JAM ES MAY R EPORTING SERVICE It ' * 43 * 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 1 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Yes. Q Even today? A Yes. Q Was Jo hn H a n l e y w i t h your company i n 1967? A No. He d i d n ' t come u n t i l l a t e i n t h e year *72. Q Did th is idea of windows of a n t i c i pation apply to your Medical Department? A I w ouldn't think they would have t h o u g h t o f i t t h a t way. I t h i n k t h e y would h ave t h o u g h t - They would look c e r t a i n l y w i t h f a v o r on p r o d u c t s t h a t would be brought to the p u b lic , and so long as those p r o d u c t s w e re j u d g e d t o be s a f e f o r p e o p l e who made them, p e o p l e who t r a n s p o r t e d them, u s e d them, t h a t w ould be p a r t of t h e i r r o l e to be s u p p o r tiv e of e f f o r t s to see th a t th a t happened. They a ls o blew the w h istle once in a w hile. Q They blew t h e w h i s t l e on PAB, d i d n * t they? A Yeah. T h a t was b e f o r e t h e r e was a n EPA Q Would t h a t be p a r t of a windows o f a n t i c i p a t i o n kind of id e a , the f a c t t h a t the R a d i c a l De--r p a r t m e n t , maybe t h e r e was a p r o d u c t b u t a s th e y le a rn e d more a b o u t i t th e y t r i e d to a n t i c i p a t a p erhaps V 'p o t e n t i a l JAM ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE 1 r i s k , and a s you s a y , blew the w h is tle '. 2 A Yeah, t h a t ' s w e l l s a i d . I t h i n k we 3 f o rm a liz e t h a t even more to d ay . 4 Q I s t h a t p a r t of t h e Management By 5 R e s u l t s or rew ard program t h a t Mr. H anley - A Oh, I t h i n k i t p re c e d e d him i n t h a t 7 s e n s e . The M edical Departm ent to d ay h as a d i f f e r e n t 8 reporting relatio n sh ip than i t did back in those days. 9 Q In t h e s e e a r l y days what was the 10 M e d i c a l D e p a r t m e n t ' s r e p o r t i n g r e s p o n s i b i l i t y ? 11 A They were a f r e e s t a n d i n g c o r p o r a t e 12 d e p a r t m e n t , a s was Law, P a t e n t s , P u b l i c R e l a t i o n s a n d 13 t h e l i k e . They r e p o r t e d u s u a l l y t o a n A d m i n i s t r a t i v e 14 V ice P r e s i d e n t f o r , you know, H o u s in g , Q u a r t e r s , P r o 15 m o ti o n and t h e l i k e . I t was n o t u n t i l - - I g u e s s i t 16 h a d t o be a b o u t *7 5 , somewhere a l o n g i n t h e r e , t h a t 17 t h e M e d i c a l D e p a r t m e n t came u n d e r my wing a s V i c e P r e s i 18 d e n t f o r T e c h n o l o g y . 19 Q Up u n t i l t h a t time i t was s t i l l p r e t t y 20 much a f r e e s t a n d i n g k in d o f an o p e r a t i o n , a s you d e s c r i b e d 21 i t ? 22 A Uh h u h ( y e s ) . I ' m n o t e x a c t l y s u r e 23 a b o u t t h a t d a t e , b u t I t h i n k '7 5 i s w i t h i n a _ y e a r . 24 Q PAB seems t o be a good e x a m p le , ... y > v . - 25 M e d i c a l D e p a r t m e n t blew th e w h i s t l e on i t ? ' JAM ES MAY R EPORTING SERVICE Jl i I  ** 1 2 3 A 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 M ,5 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 2A 25 > (0 Q During t h a t p e rio d o f time - - arid they were freestanding a t th a t time? A Yes. Q How d i d t h e y go a b o u t d o i n g t h a t ? A W e l l , I remember when Emmet blew t h e whis t i e . Q How d i d he do t h a t ? A W e ll, I can r e c a l l he convened the G e n e r a l Manager o f th e O r g a n ic D i v i s i o n , t h e r e were some o t h e r people p r e s e n t , and he s a i d , I ' v e s tu d ie d t h i s PAB p r o b le m . He had had some s u s p i c i o n s o f i t , a n d I t h i n k w i t h th e p r u d e n c e t h a t Emmet u s e d , he t r i e d t o c o l l e c t enough f a c t s so he w a s n 't making a guess be- c au se a t t h a t time t h a t was a t e r r i b l y i m p o r t a n t p ro d u c t t o u s . And I do remember he t o l c t h e G e n e r a l Manager h e h ad t o q u i t . Emmet was s a t i s f i e d t h a t t h a t was one t h a t we c o u l d no l o n g e r m a n u f a c t u r e a n d s e l l , and he t o l d them why. As I r e c a l l i t , t h e G e n e r a l Manager was a p p r o p r i a t e l y d e f l a t e d over i t b e c a u s e , you know, o b v io u s, and t h a t was i t . Q Do you r e c a l l who t h e G e n e r a l Manager was? __ A W ell, i t was e i t h e r Mr. John G l l l i s <">7,`. - .....*..... o r C h a r l i e Summer. I c a n ' t remember p r e c i s e l y . I t was JAM ES MAY R EPORTING SERVICE It ' * 46  'V 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 1 22 23 74 25 in *55. That is a c e n te r of re c o rd . Q T h a t \-m s i n ' 55 when t h i s PAE - - A As 7 remember i t , y e a h . Q In 1955 d id Dr. K e lly have the a u t h o r i t y t o s h u t a p r o d u c e down? Did he h^ve t o g e t c le a ra n c e from anybody, or ccxild h e m ade a d e c i s i o n and say, this is it? A V.'eii, I d o n ' t know. I f t h e r e were c o r p o r a t e p o l i c i e s t n a t were so r e c o r d e d , I d o n 't know. I know i n mmeds own mind he would have had t h a t a u th o r ity , and t h a t 's probably the b e st answer I could g i v e you . He knew i t w a s n ' t r i g h t . Q He j u s t k i n d o f a ssu m e c t h a t r e s p o n - s i b i l i t y and did it? A Yeah. I su s p e c t he would have been g u i l t y i n h i s own mind had he n o t cone s o . As I r e c a l l , t h e r e was no a t t e m p t on the p a r t of s e n i o r management t o do a n y more t h a n gn a sh t h e i r t e e t h a t t h a t bad l u c k . Got to give him a l o t o f c r e d i t f o r being f o r t h r i g h t . I'm sure h e could have looked the o th er way. Q But in th o se days when i t was a f r e e - standing division -- A Department. ~ __ Q Or d e p a r t m e n t , r a t h e r . T h a t r e a l l y V w as p a r t o f h i s r e s p o n s i b i l i t y ? I mean, nobody e ls e w o u ld JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE l( ' * 47 4 ** 1 h av e known, w ould th e y , a b o u t ?A3? F o r ex am p le, s e n io r 2 management th a t could have te c h n ic a lly overridden D r. 3 K e lly had to r e l y on t h a t d e p a rtm e n t, d id th e y n o t? 4 A W ell, from a le g a l sense I im agine 5 even to d a y i f Mr. H anley was to d e c id e , I'm n o t goin g 6 to l i s t e n to you, you co u ld sa y , c o u ld he do i t . The 7 a n s w e r i s h e c o u ld do i t -- c o u l d n 't e i t h e r b e c a u s e EPA 8 e x i s t s now a n d h e 'd g e t i n t r o u b l e w i t h th e law on t h a t 9 o n e . B e fo re EPA I t h i n k I t ' s a m o ra l ju d g m e n t t h a t 10 th e guy to o k o n . I t h in k Emmet m ust have known from 11 Mr. Q ueeny w here he s to o d on a l o t o f t h i n g s . Emmet 12 w as o u r f i r s t M e d ic a l D i r e c t o r . 13 Q He w o rk ed w i t h E d g a r Q ueeny, was i t ? U A Yes. John Queeny died by the tim e v is -- Emmet canoe a b o a r d . I knew Mr. Q ueeny m y s e lf , a n d I know -- V 16 Had lie b e en aw are o f t h i s , he w ould have a g re e d w it h t h a t J-'. d e c i s i o n , a n d I 'm s u r e he was made a w a r e . He was s t i l l r? * 18 a l i v e a t t h a t tim e . 19 Q Do you know o f a n y o t h e r tim e s when 20 th e w h is tle was blown on a p ro d u c t o r a su b sta n c e ? 21 A A t t h i s s i t t i n g 1 c a n ' t t e l l you a n y 22 o t h e r expm pleg 9 a t l e a s t , i n th e same way t h a t th e FAB 23 had th e w h i s t l e blow n on i t a s a n ar-t i c l e,, of-"como.o, .itrce 24 w h ere we h ad b e e n m a n u f a c tu r in g a n d . ^ J l i n g . T l i */ - . 25 I know t h a t D r. K e l ly s a i d no <xi a g r o d manly s i t u a t i o n s . J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 48 #* 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 those things in the '60*5 and '5 0 ' s ? A No, n o t p a r t i c u l a r l y . The d r i v i n g f o r c e , i f t h e r e was a s i n g l e e v e n t t h a t may have been c r u c i a l to t h a t , was our ex p erien ce w ith a product c a l l e d Cycle-Safe where the Food and Drug A d m in is tra t i o n a f t e r some seven y e a r s o f c o o p e r a t i v e work w i t h them in the approval process of t h is beverage c o n ta in e r made w i t h a c e r t a i n p l a s t i c , t h e y s u d d e n l y changed t h e i r tune based on some t o x i c o l o g y d a t a and s a i d , we a r e going to withdraw t h a t from the m arket. T h a t ' s when i t became v e r y c l e a r t h a t we were n o t in c o n t r o l of our own d e s t i n y . That was p r o b a b l y th e main d r i v i n g f o r c e . There were many o t h e r k in d s of problem s t h a t were o c c u r r i n g t o us t h e n . The OsHA D e p a r tm e n t a t t h a t time was coming fo rw a rd w i t h a p ro p o se d g e n e r i c c a r c i n o gen s t a n d a r d which we t h o u g h t p a t e n t l y u n f a i r . We w e r e n ' t v e r y w e l l p r e p a re d on t h a t one. There were hosts of problems in regard to the Clean Water Act, t h e Clean A i r A c t . The T oxic S u b s t a n c e s A ct had been in th e p r o c e s s o f b e i n g born and i n my r o l e a s VP f o r T ec h n o lo g y I had worked w i t h some o t h e r c h e m i c a l p e o p l e in h e l p i n g t o d r a f t some o f t h e words f o r t h a t l e g i s l a t i o n . And so t h e Toxic S u b s t a n c e s A c t i t s e l f a a w e l l a s SHA and Food and Drug p r o b a b l y Here m o r e ' . r e s p o n s i b l e than any th in g, wrapped off by th is C y cie-S afe-e x p e rie n c e . JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE fr #* 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 '14 15 :- %> 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 T h a t 's w hat was r e a l l y on my m ind. As 1 look back on I f i t , d io x in was th en a s i t is now, more of a myth than a r e a l i t y . Beyond th e a c tu a l c h lo ra c n e o b se rv a tio n s in s o fa r as I'm aware of the m edical evidence bona fid e^ v e r i f i a b l e e v id e n c e on hum ans, we a r e d e a l i n g w ith n o n - f a c t u a l a l l e g a t i o n s . And so when you h e a r a one p a r t per b illio n le v e l in s o il as being an outside danger lim it, t h a t 's p u rely a m athem atic c o n s tru c t and has no b a s is in f a c t , e x p e rim e n ta l f a c t . From th a t p o in t , o f view I can s a y we a r e d e a l i n g l a r g e l y w ith m y th ic a l^ i q u e stio n s . 't Q You have le a r n e d a b o u t th e d io x in . It c o n te n t sin ce your tenure as S enior Vice P re sid e n t of E nvironm ental P o lic y o f the 2 ,4 ,5 -T th a t was m anufactured l in N i t r o , you know y o u r p l a n t h a s s t u d i e s t h a t i n d i c a t e d i i t had a s milch a s 55 p a r t s p e r m i l l i o n , y o u 'r e aw are j of that? ! A I'm aware th ere were o c ca sio n al ex c u rsio n s. ! Q Is th a t m ythical also ? e ffe c ts . A No, i t ' s n o t m y th ic a l, b u t from h e a lth i I t h in k we have t o a g a i n go b a ck beyond th e chloracne q u estio n , th ere a re no irre v e rs ib le e ffe c ts anyone can m easure. Q L e t me a s k you a b o u t th e bona f i d e JA M E S MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE If 82 1 A No. 2 (Whereupon a s h o r t r e c e s s was taker., 3 a f t e r which the fo llo w in g proceedings were 4 had:) 5 Q (By Mr. C a l w e l l ) B e f o r e we l e a v e 6 E x h i b i t 366, we have been t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e N i t r o Task 7 Force. I t had I t s , I suppose, o f f i c i a l beginning about 8 June 1 s t, 1979. Did i t have an o f f i c i a l end? 9 A No. 10 Q I s i t s t i l l o n g o in g ? 11 A Yes. 12 Q T h ere were f o u r m a jo r i s s u e s t h a t 13 were i d e n t i f i e d t h a t needed t o be a d d r e s s e d by the 14 Task F o r c e , a c c o r d i n g t o a number o f memoranda. Mr. 15 T h r o d a h l , I ' m g o i n g t o hand you w h a t ' s been marked 16 P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h i b i t 36^ (Monsanto '8323075 t h r o u g h 17 # 8 3 2 3 0 7 9 ) . 367 i s a memo, Mr. T h r o d a h l , a d d r e s s e d t o 18 you d a t e d June 2 5 , ' 7 9 , from Dr. M c C a r v i l l e ? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And on page 2 o f t h a t e x h i b i t u n d e r 21 Roman Numeral I I t h e r e a r e f o u r m a jo r i s s u e s . You 22 t e s t i f i e d e a r l i e r t h a t i f you l o o k e d t h r o u g h t h e v a r i o u s 23 m i n u t e s t h a t make up 366, t h a t you w o u ld s 7 you know, 24 c e r t a i n themes d e v e l o p t h r o u g h t h e r e . Would t h o s e Rhemes 25 r. be d i r e c t e d g e n e r a l l y t o the f o u r m ajor i s s u e s i d e n t i f i e d JAM ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE 11 1 on t h a t page o f E x h ib it 367? 2 A I th in k t h a t would be re a s o n a b le . X 3 haven' t gone through th a t to se e . 4 Q In other w ords, assum ing th a t the Task 5 F orce c a r r ie d out what you had in mind, would th a t be 6 the four gen eral areas th a t you exp ected i t to take a 7 look at? 8 A I expect so. I have n o t tested.- i t 9 e x a c tly to see w hether th e re were o th e rs th a t nay have 10 a r i s e n . I ' m s u r e t h e r e p r o b a b ly w e re , b u t I c a n ' t name 11 them a t t h i s s i t t i n g . 12 Q Do you know i f ansv7e r s had been made 13 t o any o f th o se fo u r i s s u e s ? .14 VA A W ell, I th in k th in g s a re alw ays open- ,}5 e n d e d . We a r e c o n s t a n t l y t r y i n g t o , a s I e x p la in e d in 16 th e b e g in n in g o f why d id we fo rm t h i s , w e' l l n e v e r be tV3 th ro u g h w ith a n s w e r in g t h e s e . T h e re a r e a lw a y s m ore 18 a l l e g a t i o n s t h a t can be m ade, e s p e c i a l l y when y o u ' r e / 19 c h a s in g n e g a t i v e s . So w e' l l p r o b a b ly a lw a y s be w o rk in g 20 a t th e s e t h i n g s . I d o n ' t s a y t h a t c a p r i c i o u s l y . I 21 t h i n k a s more i s known a b o u t new t e s t m e th o d s, more i s 22 known a b o u t - - The r o o t c a u s e o f a l l o f t h i s i s th e 23 a s s u m p tio n t h a t a s i n g l e m o le c u le o f c a r c in o g e n c a u s e s 24 a c a n c e r i n man, e v e n th o u g h you g i v a m a s s iv e S o se's' o f 25 " ** '..V>7-;.'';' /' ** a c a r c in o g e n o r s u s p e c te d c a r c i n o g e n 't o ati a n im a l. Now, JA M E S MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E 1 t h e r e i s 2 s c h o o l o f t h o u g h t th= c e y r t h e r e a r e r.n 2 e f f e c t lim its and ther is a ny t h o u g h t t h a t 52ys 3 with, c a r c i n o g e n t h e r e a r e no n o - e f f r r t l i m i t : - . TViat'> 4 th e d r i v i n g f o r c e t h r o u g h a l l o f t h e s e t h i n g s . So 5 w e ' l l a lw a y s u n t i l some time i n th e f a r d i s t a n t f u t u r e 6 when t h a t ' ? p u t on r e s t , t h e n we* 11 know i n d e e d t h a t 7 some o f t h e s e t h i n g s can be p u t away. 8 Q Do you know i f t h e r e ' s been a n y r e p o r t s 9 from the committee in response to the four major issues 10 a b o u t w h e t h e r t h e r e a r e a n y d i f f e r e n c e s between - - In 11 o t h e r w o r d s , I s s u e number 2 t h e r e . 12 A I t h i n k the m in u te ~ t h a t you have 13 would c o n s t i t u t e th e r e c o r d so f a r t h a t e x i s t s . T h e r e ' s 14 been no f o r m a l r e p o r t t h a t would d e a l w i t h a n v one o f 15 t h e s e e x p l i c i t l y . 16 Q . K . Are you s t i l l in c h a r g e o f t h e 17 h e a l t h f o r c e o r N i t r o H e a l t h S t u d y Task F o r c e e f f o r t , 18 i s t h a t s t i l l u n d e r y o u r t i t l e ? 19 A Y e s . 20 Q And a s f a r a s you knex^, i t ' s s t i l l 21 m e e t i n g ? 22 A I t meets on o c c a s i o n . I t d o e s n ' t meet 23 on t h e r e g u l a r b a s i s i t d i d when i t f i r s t aXArted. 24 Q Now, inasm uch a s many o f th e m inu tes 25 t h a t a r e c o n t a i n e d in E x h i b i t 366 make r e fe r e n c e t o t h e JAM ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE 4 Kt 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Suskind studies or th? mortal it-- study, Morbidity study, d i d you tak e any n a r t in the nla'ir.in.f of those s t u d i e s ? A Vo. Q For e x a m p l e , t h e m o r t a l i t y s t u i y dor.?. by Suskind and Tack or /a c k and Gsffey? A No. i would take no p a r t in p re p a rin g th e n r o t o c 0]'*, i f t h a t ' s what you mean. o ^ i c h t . And would t h e same be t r u e f o r t h -2 m o r b i d i t y s t u d y o f S u s k i n d 9 A Tha t ' s r igh t . Q Do you know i f th e m o r b i d i t y s t u d v is completed? A I t ' s my u n d e r s t a n d f r . g i t ' s c o m r l e t s d and aw aiting publication. copy? Q Do you know i f M e n s e n t o ' s r e c e i v e d a. A I d o n ' t t h i n k <=*o, b e c a u s e i t ' s s t i l l b e i n g p e e r r e v i e w e d . U n t i l t h a t ' s d o n e , we w o n ' t know what the fin a l content of the narer is . Q Did you a u t h o r i z e or was i t n e c e s s a r y f o r you to a u th o riz e M onsanto's tu rn in g over to Dr. Suskind various health records and so fo rth for the work force a t Nitro? -- A T h e r e a r e p e o p l e w h o w o r k w i t h me t h a t have th at a u th o rity . JAM ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE a 67  Vf. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q YOft L-i~v r b r Z. \-V. ' -J T A Yj? f cy* -*t" *t *v , T 1-*^o - f aft-.^r t h e f ^ r t , i f t h a t ' - wTvpt -on - *n# I s the 1 ? 7 : I'vf"K an V r t a k i n g t h i s s t u d y , h e f ' th records of the work force sue p a r tic u la r iy the K i t r o r-nrl: f o r c e , the p=.*ie u n d e r t a k i n g t h a t Dr. S u s k i n d He c " .t ": i n v o l v e d **r ~r *yc / I do n 't understand the question. 7 u n d e r ta <?.. I n 1977 t h e r e ws 5 a DMIK h e a l t h s t u d y A veah. 0 N'*-*, v a r th^> t t h : - t- <=tudy t h r t Dr. ? u c '*ind b e c a rne i n v o l v e d i n i n ' 70 ? A I d o n ' t knoi.) t h e a n s w e r t o t h a t on e. V e i l , I b e l i e v e - - I ' l l have t o s a y I d o n ' t know i f t h a t ' s t h e sarqe or n o t . I c a n ' t b e l i e v e t h r t i t i s , b u t I d o n ' t know t h a t . Can you g i v e ne ar.y o t h e r h i n t ? Q I d o n * t know ra y s e lf. T h a t ' s the r e a s o n I a s k e d you. I know t h e r e was a s t u d y u n d e r t a k e n in 197o t h a t ' s been v a r i o u s l y d e s c r i b e d a s t h e DMEH s t u d y an d t h e n i n 1979 some c o n t r a c t ' s e n t e r e d i n t o w i t h Suskind and he began to do a s tu d y , ana I'm c u rio u s i f t h a t ' s one and the same. -- A Well, the Suskind study, as I re c a ll i t , vas d e v o t e d e n t i r e l y t o th e d i o x i n i s s u e . Now, t h e N i t r o JAM ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE 88 1 he* 1 t h c t u d v wOu' v be rl-v.i' a r r - b e i r . r- -one1 r>n 2 o t h e r n l a n t f o r o t h e r r e a r i n ' * th; ^ v . r t ^ e n f 3 Med i r in e , and th e v a r e t i n t 1 '* c ~ i r g s tii id ie s, r - 4 t i c u l a r l y in epidemiology -- 5 Q Sunkind study w t ex clu siv ely rela te d to dioxin, I- chat rig h t, to tho N itro Plant? 7 A Yeah, that*-, my u n d e r s t a n d i n g . Now, 8 th e S s l i k o f * s t u d y wa broade r t h a n t h a t and i t may &v 9 t h a t T u r k i n ' ? v : in - orae o t h e r t h i n g * be yon 1 the d '.oylr* 10 i s s u e , b u t t h a t ' s a d e t a i l t h a t I ' d have t o go b a d : i n t o 11 t h e r e Or l e and r e f r e s h m y s e l f b e e r :' :.c a s vnu a s k n` t h i s 12 a u e s t i o r . I d o n ' t know t h e rr>cc ? V an'*-er it. 13 Q And a t t h e t i i : t h : t t w-.=* 'dark *'^ rre 14 was c r e a t e d and t h a t the Suskinc. t u *1'.* w hi. h &-**. j , 15 I s u o o o ^ e , o f g r e a t i n t e r e s t t rt thr Tas*. f o r c e , on y <yj 16 k n e v i f Mon can t o ha ^ a n y 'r o , ; ] - d j j - h " j t c .t ; t i n u .* 17 h e a l t h p r o b le m s t h a t the N i t r o work f o r c e wa:* h a v i n g 18 a s a r e s u l t o f i t s e x p o s u r e t o d i o x i n d u r i n g the 15 0 * e 19 and ' 6 0 ' s d u r i n g th e 2 , 4 , 5 - T crr.u f a r c u r i n g p r o c e s s ? 20 A W e l l , i f I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r q u e s t i o n , 21 y o u ' r e a s k i n g d i d the T ask F o r c e know o f c o n t i n u i n g 22 h e a l t h p r o b le m s w i t h d i o x i n ? 23 Q R i g h t . _ 24 A W e l l , I t h i n k I ' v e a n s w e r e d t h a t . We 25 d o n ' t b e l i e v e t h e r e a r e c o n t i n u i n g h e a l t h problem s t h a t JAM ES MAY R EPORTING SERVICE 1 h a v a t o d^ r.-ich < m* O m 7 r r ' tr? ' ?.' the l (P minava y 2 re a c tio n and nuhse iunt u f a i: t u r 7 p." 2 , 4 , 5 - T , fvp d o n 1 3 believe t hr t . 4 V i SO t h r T ask ? o r _ wr. 0 n o t i n r e s p o n s i 5 t o f. .*y )p r c - ivc V' h e a l t h i.rV j irm ? T r-Sf.. l'o, t h e T a s k F o r c e had e 7 hr".* r ' " >;? t - or t h a r t h r z . 8 1 T'o- , " t - K h a n d y o u w h a t h a s b e e n 9 " V i - t i ^ f .*.1 " r . h i b i t r<or: _3 n t o 33 2 ^1 4 9 10 t h r o u g h *K? ; . ? c l f . ' \ t h r o u g h ^ ? `? 2 6 1 4 2 ' ! . 11 ^6 i" a Mot. memorandum f r n 12 Dan cho^ r a t e d March M , 10O'l) sue! i t e n c l o c P p v h a tV s 13 er. t ' t l e d , " A g e n t r a n g e , '..'h a t e r e t b r F a c t s , Mon r a n t o 14 C o m o a - i v P e r s p e c t i v e 5 , " a n d y o - j r e s h ' v r . * h a v i n g r e - 15 r e i v e d a r ? y f t h i s me no and i t - e n c l o s u r e . The 16 a t t a c h m e n t t o S y . h i b i t l o ? n - . S ' s r r t<* he some kin*' o f 17 - n r i t i n r . p a p e r , do es i t n o t ? 18 A Yes. He s e v s i t * s an o f f i c i a l M o n san to 19 p o s i t i o n o f A gent nr a n g e a s o f t h a t c a t e . "We i n t e n d 20 t o n s ^ e m u l t i p h a s e d i n t e r n a l di - fci.hut i o n o f t h i s in - 21 f o r n r t i o n , f o l l o w e d by s e l e c t e d e x t e r n a l d i s t r i b u t i o n . " 22 Q Do you r e c a l l t h i s o f f i c i a l d o c u m e n t , 23 t h i s p o s i t i o n p a p e r , i s t h a t s o m e t h i n g you had t o j t p p r o v e 24 o r a t l e a s t have some hand i n c r e a t i n g ? 25 A Yes. T h is p r o b a b l y w ould have p a s s e d JAM ES MAY R EPORTING SERVICE 90 1 through a number of hands, p a r t i c u l a r l y our le g a l counsel, 2 a s t o i t s p r o p r i e t y . The p u b l i c r e l a t i o n s a s p e c t o f t h i s 3 would be, I 'm c e r t a i n , c l e a r e d by someone, p r o b a b ly Dr. 4 Nolan, J. T. Nolan. 5 Q Now, on page 10 o f t h a t d o c u m e n t, the second paragraph, i t re la te s to the N itro epidemiology 7 s t u d y . Now, i s t h a t the S u s k i n d s t u d y we have t a l k e d 8 about? 9 A I believe i t is. 10 Q And a s f a r a s you know, t h e r e a s o n s 11 t h a t a r e s e t o u t a t the b o t t o m o f page 10 and c o n t i n u i n g 12 on page 11 f o r th e s t u d y a c c u r a t e l y r e p r e s e n t Monsanto* s 13 j u s t i f i c a t i o n o r r e a s o n s f o r d o i n g t h e s t u d y ? 14 A We owed o u r e m p l o y e e s , t h e p l a n t work 15 g r o u p . Yeah, a s f a r a s we know, t h e s e c o n d p o i n t , t h e 16 o n l y g r o u p , a l b e i t , HEW was n o t v e r y i m p r e s s e d w i t h 17 th e lex; number o f p e o p l e . We s a i d t h a t ' s t h e l a r g e s t 18 g r o u p we know o f i n t h e w o r l d t h a t ' s had s u r v e i l l a n c e . 19 We f e l t a t t h i s p o i n t we d i d n ' t know some o f t h e r e 20 p o r t s t h a t a r e coming b a ck a b o u t S e v e s o . Yeah, I 21 t h i n k t h o s e t h r e e were c e r t a i n l y p e r t i n e n t r e a s o n s f o r 22 doin g i t . 23 Q Did Monsan to m o n i t o r tha*t g r o u p a t 24 N i t r o over the y e a r s b e g i n n i n g whan Suskind- lo o k ed a t * . .. 25 them t o s e e how t h e y chan g ed ? JAM ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE ft ` > 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 ,7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A They have been under p e rio d ic exanination ever since. Q The people exposed t o th e 2 , 4 , 5 - T process and/or the autoclave incident? A Yes. Q And do you know who would have done that? Is that part of an ongoing medical monitoring p ro g ram f o r 2 , 4 , 5 - T e x p o s u r e , t h a t you kncx* o f ? A Y eah, th a t's our Medical Department and Suskind, as indicated here. Q So i t ' s your u n d e rs ta n d in g t h a t Suskind had a hand in th is over the years kind of k e e p i n g a n eye on the s i t u a t i o n ? A Yes. Q And was he s u p p l i e d w i t h m e d i c a l records from time to time over the years? A I d o n ' t know t h a t f o r a f a c t , b u t I would presume so. Q I t 's probably a f a ir ly obvious question, b u t what was the p urpose of t h a t c o n t i n u a l m o n ito r in g over the years you did fo r people exposed to 2,4,5-T ? A W e l l , t h e model o f i t was t h e PAB. I th in k whenever you have something o f a chronic n a tu re t h a t you r e a l l y d o n 't understand a l l t h a t w e ll, p a r t of the r e s p o n s ib ility p ra c tic e s keep g o i n g - i fm s t i l l JAM ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE a 92 & * 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 a m e m b e r o f t h e PAB g r o u p a n d p r o b a b l y w i l l b e u n t i l I d ie. Q T h a t same p r i n c i p l e a p p l i e s to th e 2 ,4 ,5 -T people, is th a t what you're saying? A Y e a h . We m o n i t o r l o t s o f t h i n g s . I guess t h a t 's why w e've g o t the c lo s e i n t e r r e l a t i o n - s h ip s o f i n d u s t r i a l h y g ie n is ts who h e lp to s e t s ta n d a r d s , m inim al sta n d a rd s of ex p o su re , the o c c u p a tio n a l p h y s ic ia n s , the e p id e m io lo g ists and the t o x ic o lo g is ts , and th ey a l l i n t e r a c t s o we c a n b u i l d u p a b o d y o f k n o w l e d g e o f t h e people in the w orkplace. I b e lie v e th is is j u s t p a rt of a broader p attern . Q A ll rig h t. Now, i f y o u ' l l lo o k on page 11 o f E x h i b i t 36 8 , i f you w ould p l e a s e r e a d t h a t p arag ra p h numbered th ird to the J u ry , p le a s e . A " T h ird , in view of the grow ing w o rld w id e c o n c ern r e g a r d in g p o t e n t i a l human h e a lt h e f fe c ts of exposure to d io x in -- fu e le d by the Indus- t r i a l a c c i d e n t in S ev eso and more r e c e n t l y th e A gent O range c o n t r o v e r s y -- we f e l t th e s t u d y c o u l d p r o v i d e m eaningful m edical co n clu sio n s to ease the a n x ie tie s of th o s e who may have been e x p o s e d to d i o x i n and now f e a r the w o rs t." - * Q So f r o m t h a t p arag rap h , thses th a t ce a n t h a t y o u k n e w t h a t t h e r e was r e a l l y n o t h i n g t o JAMES MAYREPORTING SERVICE 93 % %* 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 w o r r y a b o u t , was tha r the p o - l t i o r Monsanto? A We f e e l t h a t on t h e b a s i s o f t h e medical evidence th a t exi.rts there is no chronic problem. That i s n 't to say th at people s t i l l a r e n 't fe e lin g the worse because they are being fed th is as alm ost a d a ily d i e t i r the media. The Seveso a c c id e n t, of co u rse, had tremendous p u b l i c i t y a t the time and now i t ' s b e r i m i n g t o simmer down a n d t h e A g e n t Orange c o n t r o v e r s y has h o t te d up w ith the c l a s s a c t i o n s u i t t h a t ' s now b e i n g t r i e d i n t h e media r a t h e r t h a n in U n i o n d a l e . We e x p e c t t h e r e w i l l be n e g a t i v e r e s u l t s coming o u t o f t h i s . N e g a t i v e meanin g t h e r e s u l t s we expect. I f they turn out otherw ise, O.K., w e 'll take o u r lu m ps, b u t we r e a l l y f e e l - - These p e o p l e who have been exDOsed in t h i s way u n f o r t u n a t e l y w e 'r e s o rry they got the exposure and had the ch lo ra cn e ; but they should c o n s titu te a body of evidence t h a t 's v a l i d and r e a s o n a b l e and t h a t ' s why we w a n t t o c o n t i n u e i t . Have I a d d re s s e d the re s p o n s e in the s p i r i t you askec the question? Q Yes. Why d i d you w a i t t h i r t y y e a r s to do th is study? A W e l l , i n t h e way you a s k e d / i t , we w a i t e d t h i r t y y e a r s u n t i l some -- I t h i n k v?fe* w ere c o n stan tly follow ing i t , but remember a t the time th a t J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 1r 94 1 t h e p r e s e n t , s u i t y ^ u f re lr.vn iv .*. 1 `.ic .s a r i s -:. , the ft2 wer* a l l e g a t i o n . - of i m p r o p r i e t y on o u r p a r t w h ic h we 3 d i d n ' t f e e l were v a l i d . The A g e n t r a :.go q u e s t i o n 4 has cone up t h r o u g h the c l a s s a c t i o n s u i t . T h is I 5 th in k had a s juch prompting from Suskind h im s e lf as 6 fro-n us . 7 \ A l l r i g h t . Mr. T h r o d a h l , I ' m h a n d i n g 8 you w h a t'. marked i n h i b i t 369 (Monsanto ^232571 9 t h r o u g h l2 3 i 5 7 i ; , w h `. ; h .1? c a p t i o n e d , " C h l o r i n a t e d D i 10 ber.zo D.i owin'-, a J o-- i t i o r . T a p e r f o r Aon s i d e r a t i o n by 11 M. C. T h r o d a h l , d a t e d .June ? f , 1 779, and i t l o o k s 12 a s th ough i t was a u t h o r e d by i e w a r d P a g e t . I f you 13 w o u l d , p l e a s e , t a k e a moment and l o o k a t t h a t . 14 A Y e a h , t h i s i s p a r t o f t h e P r o j e c t 15 U l t r a t r a c a . 16 q Die P r o j e c t U l t r a t r a c e emanat e from 17 t h a t j o b you c r e a t e d f o r y o u r s e l f ? 18 A Yea h . 19 Q I t ' s cap t io r . e d , "A p o s i t i o n P a p e r 20 f nr C o n s i d e r a t i o n by M. C. T h r o d a h l . " 21 A Uh huh ( y e s ) . 22 Q I ' m n o t s u r e I u n d e r s t a n d , w h a t i s 23 a p o s i t i o n p a p e r i n M o n s a n t o ' s a:hene o f t h i n g s ? 24 A Do y o u knev who D r. Paget* i s ? \ ^ : vk'p* . 25 Q No, I r e a l l y d o n ' t . JAM ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE % ** -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 . 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A H r . ??. y e t : r. a r a t h e r r t : own t o x i - c o l o g i s t h Imp e l f , a n d he h a d o n c e r u n - - le w as o n e of the c o -d is c o v e re rs of Tagam et, the u lc e r drug. He f o u r.d e d a c o m p a n y he c a l l e d I n o r a r e s ( p h o n e t i c ) - . He cam e t o u s a few y e a r s a g o a s p a r t o f t h e b r a i n d r a in in B r i t ia n . I had a sk e d him to g iv e kind o f a p o s i t io n t h a t he w ould tak e h a v in g been new to us a b o u t s e a r c h i n g f o r t r a c e q u a n t i t i e s 3f d i o x i n s t h a t c o u ld be fo rm ed a s ho p o i n t s o u t in th e o p e n e r, w here i t ' s p o ssib le th a t an aro m atic in the presence of oxygen and halogen or a p a r tic u la r c h lo rin e could c o n c e iv a b ly g iv e one of a n y num ber of d i o x i n s , and s o t h i s w a s h i s r e c o r a m e n d a t i o n t o g i v e t o m e . On t h e b a s i s o f t h i s I t h i n k i t was m ore c l e a r we s h o u ld f o r m , a n d we d i d , a s m a l l t a s k g r o u p , a d h o c , a n d t h e y s tu d ie d up p ro c e sse s; and if they were to fin d any p ro c e s s e s th a t gave t r a c e s , then the i n s t r u c t i o n s were to c o r r e c t the p ro c e sse s so they d id n o t or in the e v e n t we c o u l d n o t c o r r e c t t h e m , we h a d t o f i g u r e o u t w h i c h d i o x i n s w e re t h e y . I n o r d e r t o d o t h i s we had to c r e a t e a f a c i l i t y , w h ich we d id a t o u r D ayton l a b o r a t o r i e s - - Does th e te rm " w o r ld c la s s " mean a n y th in g to you? A W orldclass? *.* __ * * **f ' /. V ' A Yeah. In th is cas a worldclass .. JAM ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE 1> 96 % ** 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 .14. 15 15 `..--17 ' 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 f a c i l i t y , c a p a b i l i t y f o r m e a s u r i n g - - Thi-s? arc: v* ry d i f f i c u l t t o m e s s u r e . So wa w a n t e d t o have the f a c i l i t y t h a t was e '; u r l t o t h e b e s t ir.* t h e w o r l d . At t i i a t p o i n t t h e r e wet1 p r o b a b l y o n l y two p l a c e s , one a t t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f N e b r a s k a and one a t Dow, so we wanted t o have t h a t k i n d o f c a p a b i l i t y s o when we s a i d we c a n ' t f i n d i t , '`i t 11 b e i n g a d i o x i n , t h a t means to th e b e s t of a n y o n e 's a b i l i t y i t d o e s n ' t e x i s t , a t le a s t, w ithin the lim its of th e t s ta te of the arc. U'e d i d t h a t . Q That was p a r t of t!; u l t r a t r a c e thing? A Yeah. Q Now, i f y o u ' l l l o o k a t t h e l a s t p a r a - g r a p h on page 1 of 369. A Ye3 . Q I f you would read t h a t , p l e a s e . A " In the absence of precise knowledge of human s u s c e p t i b i l i t y and in view of t h e e x tr e m e s e n s i t i v i t y o f gome s p e c i e s , i t 1 = o b v i nus t h a t v e r y s m a l l amoun ts o f TCDD i n t h e human e n v i r o n m e n t i n certain circumstances of intimate exposure or of abuse d r m i s u s e o r c a s u a l w o r k e r p r o c e d u r e s may (we r e p e a t , may), have s ig n ific a n c e ,n -- Q A l l r i g h t . Now, s i n c e t E l a was w ritte n in June of 1979, since th a t time 'arid X assume J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E * 97 % * 1 2 3 A 5 6 7 e 9 10 11 12 13 M 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you agreed w ith thr- t r ts t-n-v. t In :T *79? A ' v e i l , I r e c e iv e d th e :;ta tem ent, This matt I s B r i t i s h , th i~ i s the B r it i.- h *.7%" o f w r i t i n g , anc! z tbinV. I c e r ta in ly d i d n ' t o b j e c t t o i t , i f th a t'.s what you mean. H e's sa y in g i t ' s n o t u n co n ceiv a b le there cQ jld be som ething ve h a v e n 't se e n y e t . H e's l e a v in g the door op-ro fo r t h a t . 0 lias a n y th in g happened betw een now anc the'a to a l t a r your in t e r p r e t a tio n o f t h is v ie w , or 3o yo:j 7.t i l 1 ag ree w ith t h i s or d is a g r e e w ith i t ? A vc 1 1 , we a re c ? rr v? n? o u t wor',* e i the r on a c o n tin u in g b a s is by su; p o r tiv e vor'- e lse w h e r e in encouragement to various u n iv e r s itie s th at are capable o f d o in g t h i s . We a r e e n c o u r a g in g the I n s t i t u t e 0f T o x ic o lo g y to c o n s id e r th e s e th in g ;;, A g a in , i f on the b a s is th a t we h a v e n 't g o t t h i s pin ned down w ith ab solu te ironclad evidence that everybody w ill a ccep t. This is alm ost searchin g for the n eg a tiv e. Q Is Dr. P aget s t i l l w ith you? A Yes. Q H e's in the M edical Department? A No. Q W hat's he do now? __ A He 1 s now th e D ir e c to r o f ' s e i e n t i f i c and R e g u la to ry A f f a i r s fo r th e new H e a l t h Care D i v i s i o n . J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 98 %` 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0 :;f. thin y - p ? r 3('r k i : r ^ r th e p o s i t i o n o f the company v i t h r e g a r d t rt t h i s p r o j e c t ? A ,' \ i r a h i ' t y t ^ i - p r o v * "Mr a n a l y t i c a l c a p a b ility cane from thi? paper. Q I 1tr h a n d i n g you t h a t ' s be en marked E x h i b i t 370 (Mmeyanco J-233610 t h r o u g h # 2 3 3 6 1 2 ) , w h ic h is June 5, l'-??, tre-i^rmdun from, a g a in , looks lik e Dr. ?*:.get, f-'i'1 y o u 'r e rh^wr a s l i v i n g r e c e i v e d a copy i: i t , 1 gu*:- .*:* . A T h is i s an e a r l i e r one t h a n we j u r t looked a t. 'Vh* r up or. -*1 s r ur - J v.^ s h?.d o f f the record.) Q (By Mr. CalwelV; Mr.T h r o v e h i , you have had an Opportunity to look a t :.xhtbii. 370, have you n o t? A Ye s . Q X v?ould a s k y^xi t o r e a d t o t h e j u r y , p l e a s e , t h a t p o r t i o n o f t h e e x h i b i t on page 1 betw een w h a t ' s been marked "A" and "B" u n d e r "Some Axioms." A (Refer to e x h ib it.) Q Thank you. Mr.T h ro d a h l, I 'm g o in g to hand you a m u ltip a r t e x h i b i t which has bean marked E x h ib it 371 (Monsanto #8305445, #8305446, #6305443, #8305444, #8305441, ?78305442, #8305439, #8305440, JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E 3 Jb 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0---0 ni'AOP .1C--n *' n^- *J!, l^-o' --i *'*'/*. 1 ' Jt53T502 1> ``830602 0, -*830601?, 820601', 8 3 0 5 0 1 7 ) , and v h a t Chiy a ppe ir t o bo .=r c y r o r o . . ` r e p o r t : , r - onr i.. ho *,i<:a 1 ,, ' v i r i o n , ?' 1cc * :;t .:a s r r h D e p a r t m e n t , beginning August, 1957, and c o n tin u in g through Septem- h e r , /V t o b c _ , iio veab or *57 9 ?nd then Ja n u a ry o f ' ? , '6 0 , o f -958, May o f 1958, June "'f 1r "*, .h;'1 *, Augu-C rrtA *.Cember o f 1958. Y o u ' r e "h rv *1 . Vi;. ';*: r e c :1 d c op iy' 5 tb r\~c p r ''giro^ - r e p o r t s , rn d T , H a *=r* you t o t a k e a m i n u t e and l o o k over t h o - o , i f you \-rn.:!d, p i e r s ^ . A .'r. Q Mr, T hrodeli, you have had a n o p p o r - tu n itv to look a t these v a rio u s , w e 'l l J u s t c a l l them p r o g r e s s r e p o r t s . They b e g an i n A u g u s t o f *57 and go t h r o u g h a l m o s t m o n th ly t h r o u g h S e p t e m b e r o f 195S. Now, c u r in g t h a t p e rio d of time you were D i r e c t o r of De- velopnent of the Organic Chemicals, were you not? A Uh huh ( y e s ) . Q And a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t , t h e d i s t i n e - t i o n was made t h a t i f a p r o d u c t was i n m a r k e t , i t was out of development? A Uh huh ( y e s ) . -- Q But some p r o d u c t s c o u l d be b o t h i n development and market? JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE . 10c 4 i 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 -* A Uh huh ( y e s ) . Q D epending on w h e th er o r n o t th e y needed im provem ent. ^ your review of th ese p ro g ress r e p o r t s d o es t h a t mean t h a t 2 ,4 ,5 - T was s t i l l in th e developm ent sta g e in th is tim e p erio d ? A I t d o e s n 't mean a n y th in g . Q Can you t e l l me w h a t i t m eans? A I t means t h a t a t t h a t tim e a l o t o f people were given co p ies o f th e se th in g s th a t had v ir tu a lly n o th in g to do w ith i t . For exam ple, item num ber 1 9 . W. G luesenkam p, he was a R e s e a rc h D i r e c t o r a t D ayton o f w hat was th en th e c e n tr a l d e p a rtm e n t. T h is w ould te f o r c a s u a l i n f o r m a t i o n . Ite m num ber 4 , J . L . Hammer, who was a t t h a t tim e D ir e c to r o f M ark e t i n g , an d G. F . P a u le y , who w as som ew here in M ark e tin g a t t h a t tim e . J . R. D urland - - and t h i s m ust be D u r la n d 1s c o p y , t h e r e ' s a c h e c k m ark on i t - - b u t M inckler and D urland had som ething to do w ith manuf a c t u r l n g . D u rlan d may have b een th e P l a n t M anager a t the tim e a t N itro . M inckler m ight have been the M an u factu rin g S u p e rin te n d e n t. I was p ro b ab ly g iv en these as a co u rte sy . There a re o th ers in h e re , such a s B eaver and H ealy , who w ere in S t. L o u i s " I knew a l l th ese p eo p le, of c o u rse . They bad no ^connection w ith t h i s a t a l l , v e ry much lik e I ^ v e h o c o rm e ctio n -- J A M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E J l ,1 101 0 * 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 w ith i t . But as a m a tte r of c o u rte s y you were given th e s e t h i n g s . T here a r e o th e r s on h e r e , b u t I w o n 't go th ro u g h them . There a re p ro b ab ly two or th re e p e o p le on th e re t h a t r e a l l y had so m eth in g to sa y a b o u t t h is , but besides th a t I guess youfd look a t i t today a s a management p r a c tic e , you'd sa y t h e r e 's r e a l l y no need f o r me t o know t h i s , an d th e f a c t I was g iv e n a co p y w ould s u g g e s t no r e s p o n s i b i l i t y on my ps r t a n y more th a n i t w ould be th e r e s p o n s i b i l i t y o f th e men X m entioned. Q My q u e s t io n t o you was w h e th e r o r not these progress rep o rts in d ic ate fu rth e r developm ent - - As I u n d e rs ta n d th e d i s t i n c t i o n betw een m ark e t and developm ent, i f you needed to improve a p ro d u ct o r w h a te v e r , i t c o u ld be in b o th a r e a s . My q u e s t i o n to you is w hether or n o t th ese p ro g re ss r e p o r ts had to do w ith fu rth e r developm ent or p e rfe c tio n o f 2 ,4 ,5 -T as a functional -- A T h at was an a r t i c l e o f commerce a t th a t tim e. So th e r e s p o n s ib ility f o r m arketing i t would have been w ith th e M arketing D epartm ent, and t h a t w ould have b een Mr. Hammer a n d M r. P a u le y . T h e re was a man named M. S . M cC auley, a n d I t h i n k - h a was a M a rk e tin g R e s e a rc h man. I r e a l l y d o n 't know why. t h a t l i s t was a s encom passing a s i t r e a l ly w as. N o n e th eless, J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 102  * 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 th e re were a number of people th a t got c o p ie s of th is th a t r e a lly had no d ir e c t r e s p o n s ib ility fo r i t , and f r a n k l y , we p r o b a b ly t r e a t e d i t in a v e r y c a s u a l w ay. I , o b v io u sly , d o n 't remember e v e r se e in g th e s e s h e e ts . My name i s t h e r e . 1 m ust have a t one t im e . The f a c t t h a t a man named B aker a n d , 1 g u e s s , H i l l i s on m o st of th ese - - Baker w itnessed i t . H ill d id the w ork. Baker must have been H i l l's b o ss. At any r a te , yeah, t h i s i s n o t uncommon t h a t t h i s w ork w ould have been c a r r i e d on to im prove - - A l o t o f t h i s h as to d o , i t seem s t o me fro m th e la n g u a g e one g e t s from a c u r so ry re a d in g , i t has to do w ith y ie ld . There is one p o in t he m entions h e a lth e f f e c t s somewhere in h e re , b u t I th in k t h a t 's the o n ly one. But y ie ld was im p o r ta n t and p u r ity was im p o rta n t, so t h a t would be g o in g on, an d I s u s p e c t - - I know some o f th e p r o d u c ts we a r e m aking to d a y we may be i n th e s i x t h o r s e v e n th p ro c e ss on the p ro d u ct over the y e a rs , and th a t goes on c o n s t a n t l y . As a m a t t e r o f f a c t , we p r o b a b ly h a v e w ork g o in g on no* to red u c e th e am ounts o f h a z a rd o u s w aste produced because o f th e ^ e ^c^ e r th a t's ju s t an ongoing th in g . q You u n d e rs ta n d t h e s e p r o g r e s s r e p o r t s , r i g h t ? When you r e a d th em , you u n d e r s ta n d them ? A Do I u n d e r s ta n d them now? JA M E S MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E Jl : I 103 * *p 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Ye?. A W ^ l l , y o u ' r e a f i l i n g me t o a b s o r b a lo t in a few minute T understand the purpose of them, and they are devoted mostly to yield and then, obvious- l y , would be c o s t improvements. Q u a l it y improvements is in h e re , but I think, beyond th a t th ey a re d e a lin g with such things as corrosion, they are dealing with ways co a c i d i f y t h i n g s , th e y can use h y d r o c h l o r i c in - stead of su lfu ric which is e a s ie r, they speak of cost savings and conversion ra te s and so on. Without g i v i n g them f a r more s t u d y , I t h i n k I c o u l d n ' t answ er you much more i n d e t a i l . Q On; t h e d i s t r i b u t i o n l i s t you se e anybody in the Medical Department? A Assuming they are a l l the same. Q Well, yeah, t h a t 's probably an u n fair question. For example, the progress rep o rt dated August, '57. A Yeah, I'm looking a t t h a t now. I d o n ' t s e e anyone h e r e from M e d i c a l . K e l l y ' s name i s not present and - - N o , I d o n 't see anyone from Medical h e r e . That would n o t be u n u su al a t t h a t tim e . Q Look a t the one marked September, '57, see i f you can see anyone from the M edical Department there. J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E Jl * 104  ** 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 1 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A So, I d o n ' c s e : a n y o n -3 t h e r e . Q O.V.. I f you w o u l d , g l a n c e t h r o u g h che rem aining ones there and see i f you see anyone from the M e dica l Departm ent on any of t h o s e . A No. Q A i l r i g h t , s i r . Now l e t me hand you w h a t 's been marked e x h i b i t 372 (Monsanto #8306242 and -5306 2 4 3 ), and ir. 1s a memo d a t e d Ju n e 8 , 1959, from some f e l l o w named John K a r r i s * a n d , a g a i n , y o u ' r e shown on here a s havin g r e c e i v e d a copy o f i t . This document 372, which looks lik e some k i n d o f a memorandum o f a m e e t i n g h e l d t o c o n s i d e r 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T brush k i l l e r s , and i t ' s dated con temporaneously with those e x h ib its comprising 371, th e p r o g r e s s r e p o r t s . At t h i s tim e in *59 you were s t i l l D irector of Development for the Organic Chemicals D iv isio n , were you not? A Uh huh ( y e s ) . Q Was t h a t t h e r e a s o n you g o t t h i s document? A This was a s e r i e s o f d e r i v a ti v e s . I t ' s i n d i c a t e d a s ite m 5 on t h a t second page. The f o r m a t io n , and t h a t would be c o n s i d e r e d p ro b a b ly a new ---- >. p r o d u c t , a t l e a s t a s I see I t now. --.They a r e u s i n g vario u s e s t e r s , and he mentions comparative e ffe c tiv e n e s s JA M E S MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E ll  * 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 -- of the is o o c ty l e s te r and Dov'p snd AnCheu's pro- p r ie ta r y e s t e r s , vhatevor they were I d o n 't know. The i s o o c t y l r e c e i v e d a bad r e p u t a t i o n , n o t a s e f f e c - t i v e a s th e o t h e r e s t e r s . I d o n ' t know why. I t h i n k w h a t t h i s mar. H a r r i s was t r y i n g t o do h e r e , a s b e s t I can understand t h i s one, is th a t they must have had some k i n d o f a j o i n t r e s p o n s i b i l i t y b e c a u s e i t e m 5 shows Ag R e s e a r c h - D e v e l o p m e n t , so t h e r e must have been a team between H a rris and somebody e ls e to find an improvement in brush k i l l i n g - - They could have had a whole fam ily of these e s t e r * used; so from th a t p o i n t o f view H a r r i s was p a r t o f i t . H a r r i s was e s s e n t i a l l y a M a r k e t R e s e a r c h man who d e a l t w i t h t h e Organic Development Department a t t h a t tim e , and he did work on t h i s m a tte r of windows o f o p p o r t u n i t y . The b e s t I can r e c o n s t r u c t what t h i s s a y s , t h i s i s what they are a b o u t. They have to do something to improve th a t iso o c ty l performance in terms of i t s effect iveness. Q A ll r i g h t . T h e r e 's 373 (Monsanto #8321750 and #8321751), Mr. T h ro d a h l. Take a minute and review t h a t , i f you would. A O.K. Q A l l r i g h t . T h a t 1* a l e t t e r o r memo- *# ? .* / ?r randum on Monsanto l e t t e r h e a d a u th o red by Dr. M cC arville, JAM ES MAY R EPORTING SERVICE Jl i l 106 1 looks l i k e , dated August 11, *7. 2 A Uh huh ( y e s ) . 3 Q And i t ' s a d d r e s s e e to you a n a 2 1 so 4 some o t h e r g e n t l e m e n . 5 A That's correct. 6 Q This p red ates the somewhat formal 7 form ation of the iiitro Task Force, but was t h i s docu 8 ment a p a r t o f yo u r o n g o i n g t h o u g h t p r o c e s s e s t o make 9 th e d e c i s i o n to go ahead and form t h e T r s k F o r c e , i s 10 t h a t one o f t h e s e p r e l i m i n a r y k i n d s c f t h i n g s ? 11 A No, I d o n ' t t h i n k s o . I t h i n k t h i s 12 was s e n t - - These p e o p le who a r e i n v o l v e d h e r e a r e , 13 w e l l , t h e y a r e V P ' s a t t h e - t i m e . U Q Are those fellow s th a t i t ' s addressed 15 t o a l l p e e r s o f y o u r s p r e t t y much? 16 A Yeah. These were e s s e n t i a l l y members 17 o f t h e a d m i n i s t r a t i v e c o m m i t t e e . There were more p e o p l e 18 i n t h e a d m i n i s t r a t i v e c o m m i t t e e , an d I ' m n o t s u r e why 19 t h e y a r e n o t t h e r e . At a n y r a t e , I t h i n k w hat h e ' s 20 p ro p o s in g t o be done h e re i s to a l e r t a group o f people 21 who would be i n v o l v e d i n one way o r a n o t h e r w i t h th e 22 s u p p o r t o f t h i s e i t h e r from a p o i n t o f v iew o f t h e 23 p r o p r i e t y o f doing i t and what have you becSQse you * 24 .* v see in the background se c tio n on the second p a g e h e 's 25 s a y i n g , w e l l , h e ' s t a l k e d t h i s o v e r w i t h Law and t h e r e JAM ES MAY REPO R TIN G SER VIC E 11 1 is no requirem ent e ano you e s i* ` c m t o 2 3 r. 4 se co n d p a g e . He t h i n k s a v o l u n t a r y M o n s a n t o - s p o n s o r e d 5 followup study is consistent with the policy of social 6 r e s p o n s i b i l i t y . H e 's s a y i n g b u s k i n d came t o us and 7 w a n tj t o add t h o s e 57 p e o p le t o b r i n g up t o d a t e t h e 8 long perioc of monitoring. I think the only hitch here 9 i s ir: t h e se c o n d p a r a g r a p h u n c e r ''R e co m m endations11 on 10 t h e se c o n d p a g e . When we a c t u a l l y l e t t h e c o n t r a c t U with uskindv he aid emerge as being in charge of i t . 12 I t h i n k i t was E i l l M c C a r v i l l e ' s r e c o m m e n d a t i o n t h a t 13 he n o t b e , b u t a s i t t u r n s o u t w i t h u n i v e r s i t y r e l a 14 t i o n s h i p s o f t h a t s o r t , you have t o have t h e i n v e s t i 15 g a t o r be i n c h a r g e o f i t , so he w a s . S u s k i n d h a s n o t 16 b een n o t e d f o r h i s p r o m p t n e s s in d o i n g t h i n g s . 17 Q So t h e se c o n d p a r a g r a p h y o u ' r e r e f e r r i n g 18 t o on page 2 , t h e s e n t e n c e i s , "The s t u d y would 19 r e m a in i n t h e o v e r a l l c o n t r o l o f M o n s an to . Dr. S u s k i n d , 20 w h i l e he may be p a r t o f t h e c o n s u l t i n g te a m , would n o t 21 be i n c h a r g e o f t h e e f f o r t . " T h a t ' s w h a t y o u ' r e r e 22 f e r r i n g t o ? 23 A Yes 24 Q A l l r i g h t . L e t ' s h a v e 373 back,-- 25 I ' l l hand you w h a t ' s been marked 374 (Monsanto #236191 t h r o u g h JA M E S MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E 108  1 ** 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ? / 2 3 c l S 3 ) , anc i t l o o k s i.iV.e a n o t h e r memo from l . r . M c C a r v i l l e . I t h i n k y o u ' r e show;, uz gc t t i r g a copy ra th e r than being an addressee. A That's true. Q And i t e n c l o s e s a d o cum ent w h ic h l o o k s t o be some p r e p a r e d n e s s q u e s t i o n s a n d a n sw e rs p e r t a i n i n g t o , I g u e s s , sooe p r e s s i n q u i r y o r some perceived press inquiry about Agent Orange. A I t ' s what wc c a l l e d a p r e p a r e d n e s s s t a t e m e n t i n t h e e v e n t we were g o i n g t o need i t w i t h i n The Krummrich P l a n t ' s t h e one o v e r h e r e i n b a s t S t . ' Louis . Q 'Jh huh ( y e s ) . A O.K. On t h e s e c o n d page o f t n e e x h i b i t , which is the f i r s t page of those questions and answ ers, the la s t paragraph, the bottom of the page. A Yes. Q W ell, the questioni s , "What is Monsanto d o i n g t o s t u d y w o r k e r s e x p o s e d t o 2 , 4 , 5 - Y 1'? A Uh huh ( y e s ) . Q And t h e p r o p o s e d a n s w e r i s , " A l t h o u g h we h a v e h ad e x p e r i e n c e w i t h 2 , 4 , 5 - T a n d prejTQmably w i t h 2 ,3 ,7 ,8 -T C D D a t N i t r o d a t i n g b a c k t o 1 9 4 9 , we h a v e s e e n no lo n g -te rm e f f e c t s on h e a l t h o t h e r than c h lo r a c n e ." JA M E S MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E Jr ^i 109 1 Is chip reference there to tha t n rricd of observation 2 you t a l k e d a b o u t e a r ' i e r on th? M'.trn w orkers you 3 talk ed about over the number of veurr? 4 A The Sus kind work, you mean? 5 Q As I u n d e r s t a n d i t , you w :e t a l k i n g 6 about observations of th is work force In the n atu re o f 7 t h e mode 1 t h a t PAP p r o v i d e d . 3 A .Hi, t t o p u r p o s e of- i t , y e a h . i 9 Q c ^ J- .t was 1 i k e an o n g o i n g o b s e r v a t i o n 10 o f t h a so men from the* t ii - e o f p r o d u c t i o n and so f o r t h -- n A Time o f exDOsurc . 12 Q Yes. Up u n t i l t h e tim e S u s k i n d t o o k 13 t o do t h e m o r b i d i t y ? t u d v in t h e Is t e 173* s o r w h a t e v e r ? 14 A Tha t 1f r i g h t . ke have tiad r e c o r d s 15 or. t h o s e p e o p l e a l l ' t h i s t i m e . 16 Q And d u r i n g t h a t o e r i o d o f tim e you 17 war-.' k in d o f k e e p i n g a n eye on t h o s e r e c o r d s ? 18 A Tha t 1s r i c h t . 19 Q To s e e i f t h e r e would be a n y k i n d 20 o f a d e v elo p m e n t t h e r e ? 21 A T h a t f s r i g h t . 22 Q Of a n y l o n g - t e r m h e a l t h e f f e c t s . Do 23 you know w hat was b e i n g lo o k ed f o r s p e c i f i c a l l y ? 24 A W e ll, w hat w ould you lo o k f o r 'in k an y 25 one t h a t had been exposed to some th in g once and had a JA M E S MAY R EPO R TIN G SER VIC E It * ' 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 IS 16 ... .. -17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 - c o n d i t i o n o f t h i s . I f you wer**i a p h y s i c i a n , y o u ' d c e r - t a i n l y be lo o k in g f o r any l o n g - te r r : h s a l t h e f f e c t ? t h a t you w o u l d n ' t be p r e d i c t i n g . You j u s t want to know. Q Do you h ave a n y i d e a w h a t t h o s e e f f e c t s m ig h t be a n a how would you know - - Have you been i n - formed to know? A I'm not q u alified to judge th a t, b u t tile p h y sic ia n s would be in ta k in g a n n u al p h y s ic a ls th ey - - I f you had had a childhood d is e a s e lik e n e p h r i t i s , w o u ld n 't your p h y sic ia n be examining th in g s as you went to him a n n u a l l y to see w hether t h a t n e p h r i t i s was c a r r y - ing over into other e ffe c ts he c o u ld n 't p red ict. Thif i s the way you b u i l d up a volume o f i n f o r m a t i o n . Q So t h a t ' s your u n d e rstan d in g of the kinds of things being done a t N itro? A Sura. Q Since you began having t h a t exposure problem there in ' 49? A Sure. Q So I t ' s your -u n d e rs ta n d in g t h a t the physicians such as they were would have taken th a t in to account? A Sure. Q ` I f you wanted to : of th a t, you'd ask Dr. Roush? ' ,,' ., ** v i, -ilk*'' J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E Jl ' 1 111 Yeah, you ought : ? -s'/, koush about tha t. Q !`o v , ic i t your y.n * r s t s n d i n g t h a t t h a t k i n d o f i n f o r m a t i o n was t o be a p a r t o f t h i ? , we t a l k e d e a r l i e r a b o u t t h i s 1978 DMniH u n d e r t a k i n g ? A Uh hub. ( y e s ) . Q > : that p a r t o f th e p l a n t h e r e to in c o r p o r a te th is long p e rio d o f o b se rv a tio n t h a t you ha d i.n t o tha t da ta ba s e ? A Have you h e a r d o f t h e t e r m "MEHI" ? Q Yes . A In e s s e n c e , that'sv h a tM E H I ' s a b o u t . We a r e h o p e f u l when we g e t a l l the r e c o r d s i n p l a c e -- t h a t w i l l be some time y e t - - we w i l l be a b l e t o a n s w e r in a m a t t e r of m i n u t e s t h i n g s o f tr, i s s o r t . Q Wan N i t r o - - I u n d e r s t a n d you had to p u t t h a t in some k in d o f p r i o r i t y o r d e r ? A N itro* s h ig h on the list. Q And t h a t was a r e t r o s p e c t i v e k i n d o f t h i n g inasmuch a s you wanted t o go b a c k w i t h a s many re c o rd s as you had as f a r as you could go? A We t r i e d t o do t h a t r e c o g n i z i n g t h a t always these records are not kept in the shape - Well, wm .% J, # ... any r e c o r d you wish t h a t you knew th e n what you know now, so w i t h t h a t t h o u g h t i n m in d , b u t we a r e t i j i n g t o JAM ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE it 112 I * * 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 go b a c k e? much ar. r o - * - i b j ' . 0 vO v o j 'u',T' fch" :"r; tu* o f tlia - e f f o r t in iv f e r e n c e t.> N i t r o **la*'4: :*ith r c . ^ a r f t o t h e MEHI undertaking? A I c a n 't ansvor th a t o ff the top of my h e a d . A g a i n , Roush wem' d be a b l e t o do t h a t . The big p la n ts and the plr.nt: han d lin g the l a r g e s t v a rie ty of chcmiceIs a rc obviously th i h ig h e s t on the l i s t . T. c o u ' d n ' t t e r t i f y t ' j t h i s , b u t I wo uld t h i n k N i t r o h a s t o be among th-= nos t i m p o r t a n t one- f o r a number o f reason;*-. 0 Nov, you .said som ething e a r l i e r , Mr. T h ro d ah l, in res p o n se to q u e s t io n s a b o u t E x h i b i t 366, which was th e N i t r o Task F o rce e x h i b i t . A TJh huh ( y e * . Q F a r t o f the thing the t got you going on t h i s were the media im plies t l o n c o f what you were re c e iv in g as you kind of monitored the s i t u a t i o n s u r rounding dioxin and the veterans' s u it and a l l th at, a n d you made t h e comment t h a t you t h o u g h t t h e p r o b l e m s were behind you but i t looked lik e w ith th is resurgence t h a t you were going to have to form t h is ta s k fo rc e . What problems did you have in mind, what were th o se problems t h a t you thought were behind you? ~ v.` A I thought I responded to t h a t . The JA M E S MAY R E PO R TIN G SERVICE Ji 1 1 concern about dioxins has been increasing over time 2 a n d n o t d e c r e a s i n g . When I s a i d I t h o u g h t we had 3 some o f t h o s e problem s b e h i n d u s , t h e e p i d e m i o l o g y 4 r e c o r d s t h a t we had and t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t c h l o r a c n e 5 was t h e o n l y m e a s u r a b l e harm t h a t we c o u l d a u t h e n t i c a t e , 6 but n o n eth eless, the fa c t th a t th a t was coming upt the 7 A gent Orange s u i t was g o in g t o be a p a r t o f t h i s , t h i s 8 s u i t t h a t y o u 1r e i n v o l v e d i n ; a n d we r e a l l y f e l t t h a t 9 th ese th in g s were coming in such p r o l i f e r a t i o n t h a t 10 i n o r d e r f o r us t o do a n a p p r o p r i a t e j o b o f i n f o r m i n g 11 p l a n t w o r k e r s , management, t h e p u b l i c , we had t o have 12 a c o o r d i n a t e d b a s i s , and c e r t a i n l y p a r t o f t h i s c o 13 o r d i n a t i o n was t o keep r e e x a m i n i n g w h a t were new s t a t e s 14 o f t h e a r t In t e r m s o f t e s t s , i n t e r m s o f o t h e r t h i n g s 15 we m i g h t t h i n k o f d o i n g t h a t we h a d n ' t t h o u g h t o f b e f o r e . 16 As I s a i d , I b e l i e v e I s a i d i t , t h i s w i l l p r o b a b l y be 17 o n g o i n g u n t i l a l l o f t h i s i s r e a l l y p u t on r e s t , a nd 18 I d o n ' t know when t h a t would b e . But t h a t was t h e 19 g e n e s i s o f t h i s . As you c an i m a g i n e , i f we h a v e - - 20 L e t's say th a t a re p o rte r would ask the p la n t manager 21 a t t h e N i t r o o p e r a t i o n f o r a s t a t e m e n t . W e l l , i f he 22 makes a s t a t e m e n t and i t i s n ' t c o o r d i n a t e d w i t h our 23 p a r t i c u l a r p o l i c i e s , o u r g u i d e l i n e s , o t h e r .a c tio n s ^ 24 he could w ell put both f e e t in hia mouth u n in ten tion ally. 25 We h a v e to h a v e some way t o o r d in a te t h i s . We c e r t a i n l y JA M E S MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E it 114  * I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 a r e c o n c e rn e d , we d o n 't w an t to t e l l th e p u b l i c , t e l l th e m edia s o m e th in g we a r e n ' t g o in g t o s h a r e w ith th e re g u la to ry a u th o r itie s . T h a t's one o f our b ig g e st p ro b le m s . See t h a t we d o n 't g e t o u t o f p h a se on t h i s . T h a t 's a b i g j o b , and we ta k e t h a t p r e t t y s e r i o u s l y . Q I th in k w hat 1 was r e f e r r in g to , you s a id when th is s t a r t e d , t h i s a re a s t a r t e d to b o th e r you, you m entioned Agent Orange and d io x in s and a l l . A Sure. Q You f e l t t h a t th e p ro b le m s a t N i t r o w ere b eh in d you. Were th e r e s p e c i f i c problem s you had in mind o th e r th a n th e problem s o f com m unicating w ith th e media and a l l th a t? A Gee, I d o n 't know how e l s e to an sw er y o u . L e t me a s k you g u y s. MR. BISTLINE: I f you w an t t o h a v e a n o f f - t h e - r e c o r d d i s c u s s i o n , we c a n , we can r e t i r e i f you want to do th a t. Q (By Mr. C a lw e ll) Maybe I can re p h ra s e th e c p e stio n . I th in k w hat I'm g e ttin g a t , Mr. T h ro d ah l, is a sid e from the obvious problem s c re a te d fo r your company by an In c re a s in g I n te r e s t in d io x in a n d , a s you s a id , th e A gent Orange s u i t and a l l t h a ^ were. *. > ^ - th e re h i s t o r i c a l problem s a t th e N itro P la n t you'j& d referen ce to? J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E l! * 115 . l *4 I 1 2 ,3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 ;i14 15 17 y 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A No. Q u ite f r a n k l y , th e PAB q u e s t i o n h a s come up a g a i n w ith t h a t s u i t an d we th o u g h t t h a t was b e h in d u s , We p u b lis h e d e v e r y t h i n g we knew a b o u t i t . We h a d th e s u r v e i l l a n c e p ro g ra m g o in g f o r a l l ' th e f o lk s ex p o sed . A ll t h a t 's been made a m a tte r o f r e c o r d , an d now comes a c l a s s a c t i o n s u i t a g a i n s t u s . And so t h a t ' s a p ro b le m we t h o u g h t M ts b e h in d u s . Remember, your a lle g a tio n s w ere tw enty-som e-odd p ro d u c ts , f if ty - s o m e - o d d p r o c e s s e s a n d God know s, t h i r t y - f i v e , f o r t y y e a r s . W e ll, t h a t ' s en o u g h t o s a y t o y o u , my g o o d n e s s , we b e t t e r go o v e r e v e r y t h i n g e l s e we th o u g h t we had i n p l a c e a n d t r y once m o re. So w i t h a l l t h e s e th in g s ta k in g p la c e , and you compound th is w ith A gent O range com ing a lo n g o f w h ic h we a r e one o f s e v e r a l d e f e n d a n ts , i t o c c u rs we c e r t a i n l y o u g h t to re d o u b le o u r e f f o r t s to make s u r e w h a t we a r e d o in g , f i r s t . o f a l l , is honest and, secondly, is the s ta te o f the a r t I n s o f a r a s we c a n make i t a n d t h a t i t ' s p ro m p t. Then t h e m a t t e r o f w hat do we Sa y co th e p e o p le on the o u tsid e has got to be coo rd in ated fo r reasons I'm su re a re u n d erstan d ab le to you. Beyond th a t I th in k I r e a lly trie d to say i t in h ere - - I could v.;;- p r o b a b ly do i t b e t t e r i f I h a d kndH%.you. an3k-I.`.w ere. going to m eet t h i s w ay. "Make c e r j ^ f e a l l % ^ r t f j |& i a t e reso u rces w ith in o r o u tsid e the co rp o atio n a re being J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E Jl 116 1 a p p lie d to re s o lv e the many i n t e r r e l a t e d and d i f f i c u l t 2 s itu a tio n s surrounding th e N itro H ealth Study in v o lv in g 3 t r i c h l o r o p h e n o l . " No q u e s t i o n . 4 Q Did you th in k the c h lo ra c n e problem 5 was behind you? 6 A . From th e p o in t o f view o f lo n g -te rm 7 chronic e ffe c ts , o th er long-term chronic e ff e c ts , 1 8 p e rs o n a lly th o u g h t i t was behind u s . 9 Q C hloracne was view ed a s a lo n g -term 10 c h r o n ic e f f e c t ? 11 A I t c e r t a i n l y l a s t e d f o r a lo n g tim e 12 w ith some o f th e f o l k s , b u t i t was r e v e r s i b l e . We 13 a r e t r y i n g t o se e a r e t h e r e i r r e v e r s i b l e r e a c t i o n s , 14 a n d we fo u n d t h a t . The Im m u n o lo g ic a l w o rk and m o r t a l i t y 15 w ork o f S u s k ln d and Z ack an d G a ffe y i n d i c a t e d on th e 16 b a s i s o f t h a t c o h o r t s t u d y , th e y c a n f i n d no s t a t i s 17 t i c a l l y s i g n i f i c a n t d i f f e r e n c e s in th e d e a t h r a t e s 18 due to a n y o t h e r s o - c a l l e d c h r o n i c d i s e a s e s . We 19 th o u g h t t h a t p a r t had b e e n r e a s o n a b l y w e l l e s t a b l i s h e d . 20 Q And was b e h in d you a t th e tim e you 21 h a d to g e t t h i s t h i n g u n d e rw a y , th e N i t r o T ask F o r c e , 22 E x h ib it 366? 23 A W e ll, up u n t i l t h a t t i m e ^ ^ e a t i r . . 24 Y o u r i f f l e th ro u g h h e r e a n d s e e w h a t ; th e y b r b u g j h t ^ p . 25 T hey b ro u g h t up t h in g s t h a t g e n e r a l l y b o r e 'o n th o s e JA M E S MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E Jl ;I * 2 3 .4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 f o u r p o i n t ? wo w ere m ak in g . T h a t w h o le a t m o s p h e r e -- I t h i n k t h e r e * s no q u e s t i o n we were g e t t i n g m essag es from responsible folks in the plants th at indeed w h a t we t h o u g h t was i n p r e t t y good s h a p e p r o b a b l y w a s n ' t . Q What do you mean by t h a t ? A We do t h i s a l l t h e tim e w i t h a l l k i n d s o f t h i n g s . We a r e t r y i n g t o a n t i c i p a t e a n d p r e v e n t something from happening. I f you're looking fo r another r e a s o n , I c a n ' t g i v e you a n y o t h e r r e a s o n . You t e l l me w h at I ' m m i s s i n g . Maybe t h a t w i l l 1b l p . Q I d o n ' t know. You t e l l me. A I rest. MR. CALWELL: O.K. Thank y o u , Mr. Throdahl. Monte C, T h r o d a h l ' ;;* e; JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E JI 118 \* * P } 2 3 STATE Of ILLINOIS ) ) SS. COUNTS of MADISON ) I ! 1 11 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 J 4 ;<, **' / ` "v . ?5 .* * ---u j: .'V* *. i? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I , M. JOY SPRINGER, a N o t a r y P u b l i c , d u l y commissioned and q u alified in and for the County of i Madison, S tate of I l l i n o i s , do hereby c e r t i f y th a t p u r s u a n t t o n o t i c e came b e f o r e me on t h e 1 9 t h d a y o f J u l y , 198 3, a t t h e R a d i s s o n H o t e l , Room 215, 9th S tre e t and Convention Plaza, St. Louis, M issouri, MQ5TE C. THRODAKL, who was by me d u l y sworn t o t e s t i f y to the tru th and nothing but the tru th of his knowledge touching and concerning the m atters i n c o n tr o v e r s y in t h i s c a s e ; t h a t he was th ereu p o n c a r e f u lly examined upon oath, and his exam ination r e d u c e d t o w r i t i n g u n d e r my s u p e r v i s i o n ; t h a t t h e deposition is a true record of the testimony given by the w itn e s s ; and s i g n a tu r e of the w itn e s s was n o t waived. I FURTHER CERTIFY t h a t I am n e i t h e r a t t o r - ney nor counsel fo r nor r e la te d to nor employed by and of the p a rties to the action in which th is d e p o s itio n i s taken; and f u r t h e r , t h a t I am n o t a r e l a t i v e o r empl oyee o f a n y a t t o r n a y ^ t i r c o u n s e l .am* ployed by the p a rtie s h ereto , or flj^ m c ia lly Interested in the action. *=- * JAMES MAYREPORTING SERVICE Jl -l r 119 ft ' 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ; L i.::, na>^c ; c v 2lc....cr.cV A L . ] y r e s e a r c h , w-crly r 2vc lopmer.t p h a s e s . 0 I ; w~r. common f h n : t o s a y , we a r e noc going to do t h i s or you f in e a b e t t e r way to do i t ? A* *xT*.U*<_-i. rL1o,, I_ xjjULf , 4 The d ev elo p m en t s t a g e , t h e n , i s a fa irly important stage in determining the risks of a product or ris k s a sso c ia te d w ith a product, is i t not? A I t ' s t h a t phase t h a t you c e r t a i n l y are gathering inform ation th a t would hopefully lead to u n d e r s t a n d i n g ticre a b o u t the c h ro n ic n a t u r e of any possible harm. Q A ll r ig h t. You're Vice P resident of T e c h n o lo g y i n 1967, i t ' s a c o r p o r a t e p o s i t i o n . He*, l o n g did they l e t you sta y there? A J n t i l J u l y of 17, . Then I assumed my p r e s e n t j o b . Q Which if? A 1 1oi S e n i o r V ice P r e s i d e n t f o r t h e Environmental Policy. Q Is t h a t a r e l a t i v e l y new f u n c t i o n , environmental policy? A (Nods head a f f i r m a t i v e l y . )_ Q When d i d t h a t come a b o u t f A July of 1977. I'm a f r a i d I created i t JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE It - * 49 2 n o t h i n g . A: i t u u r o u t , you ea:. the re s t of 3 i t i f you do any r e a d i n g , b u t in the c a r ' " ' 7 0 ' s i t 4 became c l e a r t h a t , t o a t a t l o a t t , t h a t wt had t o n- 5 s t i t u t i o n a l i e e soce of our e f f o r t s , a l o t of them. I made th e mistake: of s u g g e s t i n g t o H a n le y once t o o o f t e n , 7 I g u e s s , t r i a t w* had t o do s o m e t h i n g a b o u t i t b e c a u s e 8 wo were r e a c t i n g t o problem s i n s t e a d o f a n t i c i p a t i n g 9 them. He a i n , w'.i? t do you t h i n k we s h o u l d d o . I 10 d e v e l o p e d a si^e.I I g r o u p t o s t u d y i t f o r a c o u p l e of 11 m o n t h s , w h a t v?e w ould do. I n J u l y o f t h a t y e a r I made 12 a p r e s e n t a t i o n t o th e as1m i n i s era tiv*-- c o m m i tt e e a n d i t 13 was a c c e p t e d , and I was a s s i g n e d t h e c a s k o f o r g a n i s i n g 14 i t , p u t t i n g i c t o g e t h e r , we have beer, a t t h i s b u s i n e s s 15 s i n c e t h a t t i m e . 16 Q /mcl t h i s E n v i r o n m e n t a l p o l i c y c o m m i tt e e 17 I s u p p o s e , wou ld be ir. k e e p i n g w i t h t h e s p i r i t o f your 18 windows o f a n t i c i p a t i o n way o f e x p r e s s i n g ? 19 A Yeah,, we use t h a t a l o t now. 20 Q Now, whhaat i s your b a s i c r e s p o n s i b i l i t y 21 a s S e n i o r V ice P r e s i d e n t o f E n v i r o n m e n t a l P o l i c y ? 22 A W e l l , a s t h e name i m p l i e s , i t ' s my 23 r o l e t o e s t a b l i s h b o t h p o l i c y a n d g u i d e l i n e s ^ - t o have 24 t h e c o r p o r a t i o n a c t in a s o c i a l l y r e s p o n s ib le m anner in 25 St , . terms of compliance w ith e x is ti n g law . It* s a ls o our JAM ES MAY R EPORTING SERVICE % ** 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 r o l e to d eal w ith the r e g u la to r y a s p e c ts of the law and in te rp re t those regulatory aspects for the operational people so th a t indeed they can comply in the most cost e f f e c t i v e way. I t ' s a l s o my r e s p o n s i b i l i t y t o have folks work w ith various congressional subcommittees when t h e a u t h o r i z a t i o n o f t h e laws come up t o o f f e r opinions, te c h n ic a lly from a p r a c tic a l point of view on how t h e law c o u l c be done more e f f e c t i v e l y . We a l s o c a r r y o u t a l l o f t h e m e d i c a l l y r e l a t e d w o r k . Now t h e Department of Medicine is called Department of Medicine and Environmental Health, and it* s responsible under my g e n e r a l s u p e r v i s i o n f o r a l l o c c u p a t i o n a l m e d i c i n e , i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n e , e p i d e m i o l o g y , t o x i c o l o g y . And s o u n d e r one h e a d , Dr. George Roush, we have i n p l a c e an o r g a n i z a t i o n now t h a t c an i n t e g r a t e a l l o f t h e r e s o u r c e s i n o r d e r t o come up w i t h , you m i g h t s a y , r e s o l u t i o n o f p ro b lem s t h a t may e x i s t and p r e v e n t i o n o f ones b e f o r e t h e y do become p r o b l e m s . We a l s o do some o t h e r t h i n g s w h ic h you m ig h t s u s p e c t . We a r e t r y i n g h e r e t o become th e spokesman f o r th e c o r p o r a t i o n on a n a t i o n a l , i n t e r n a t i o n a l b a s i s on m a t t e r s o f t h e e n v i r o n m e n t . We do t h i s on a worldwide b a s i s , i n c i d e n t a l l y , in terms of p o l ic y . A l l of our Monsanto-owned a f f 11 la t e a - a round the world w i l l op erate w ith the law o f the land on a n v iro n m e n ta l and h e a l t h is s u e s o r on Monsanto r u l e s , JAM ES MAY REPO R TIN G SERVICE Jl - 51 1 '* 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 w h i c h e v e r a r e che more s t r i n g e n t , and t n a t i s l p o lic > we h o l d t o w i t h g r e a t r e s p e c t . We a l s o , t h e n , a r e th e focal point for problem re so lu tio n , although, i t ' s our p u r p o s e a n d we have been w o r k i n g d i l i g e n t l y f o r th e la s t six years, is to infuse the operation of environn e n t a l s a f e t y i n t o the o p e r a t i n g u n i t s a s much a s p o s s i b l e . We hav^ some 1300 p r o f e s s i o n a l s w i t h i n e n v i r o n m e n t a l e ffo rts throughout the corporation which I look over on an o v e r s i g h t b a s i s t h r o u g h an e n v i r o n m e n t a l n e t w o r k . We h av e an E n v i r o n m e n t a l P o l i c y C o m m itte e , which i s e s s e n t ia ll y h a lf of the ad m in istrativ e committee, th e most s e n i o r people in the c o r p o r a t i o n who s h a re w i t h me t h e Judgment and t h e e v a l u a t i o n o f how w e l l we a r e d o i n g t h e s e t h i n g s . Q Now, t h i s o r g a n i z a t i o n t h a t r e s u l t e d i n t h e DMEH, was t h a t c r e a t e d a l s o on or a f t e r J u l y 1 s t , 1977? A DMEH was m o d i f i e d i n a b o u t f 75 t o include - - I t had aboard w ith i t in d u s tr ia l hygiene and o c c u p a tio n a l m ed icin e. I b e lie v e i t had one t o x i c o l o g i s t o r maybe two a t t h a t t i m e , a nd i n *74 a s Vice P re sid e n t fo r Technology I had had a team study and made a d e c i s i o n t o b u i l d o u r own t o x ic o lo g y ^ f a c i l i t i e s . T h a t w e n t on b e f o r e we c r e a t e d t h e p o l i c y s t a f f . So when we c r e a t e d t h e p o l i c y s t a f f , t h e n we d e c id e d t o JAM E S MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE II - * 52 strengthen epidemiology m aterially, strengthen toxi c o l o g y v e r y m a t e r i a l l y and we have b e e f e d up our occupational medicine very m aterially. really t h e modern DMDH a s o u r a cronym c a l l s f o r , t h a t r e a l l y should begin somewhere in the e a r l y *77 p e rio d . Q how, d u ring the time the Medical D e p a r tm e n t was a f r e e s t a n d i n g , was t h e r e a c o r p o r a t e l e v e l v i c e p r e s i d e n t or some s u c h p e r s o n t h a t i t was answerable to? A Yes. Q Would i t have had a name? A Well, they were c alled d if f e r e n t th in g s, b u t Vice P r e s i d e n t of A d m in is tra tio n was one th in g given to those people. Q Would t h a t have been t r u e in the 1950*s, fo r example? A Yes, b u t I c o u ld n 11 remember who t h a t might be. Q But i t would hav* been l i k e , sa y , a Vice P resident of A dm inistration th a t would have done that? A Yes. Q And i f a w h i s t l e was blown, i t would be t h a t p e r s o n who i n t h e o r g a n i z a t i o t a l scheme o f t h i n g s would have been rep o rted to , " I'm going to blow the w h i s t l e on t h i s " ? JAM ES MAY REPO R TIN G SERVICE Jl % ' 1 2 3 A 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 H 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 2A 25 A lie c r oba b 1y wouic? ha vc Vs owe i t . I wou 1d i m a g in e a t tn e time - - t h i s i s ; u s t 3 g u e s s - I wou1^ t h i n V is-. ' 55 Emmet K e l l y must have r e p o r t e d t o the F r e s i c e n t b e c a u s e we were much s m a l l e r in t h o s e d a y s . Tha t was s o r t of a theme o f f r e e s t a n d i n g c o r p o r a t e d e p a r t. r ar. . They wre co a s s i s t c o r p o r a t e manage en t in d o i n g t h e s t a f f work n e c e s s a r y t o make t h o s e dec isions. Q And m a t e r i a l p r o b l e m s , s u c h a s b lo w in g t h e w h i s t l e on s o m e th i n g a l r e a d y in commerce, would be something t h a t would have found i t s way, I g u e ss, to the Vice P resident or t^e President? A nh, the P r e s i d e n t v?ould have been involved in that for su re . Q And has t h a t k i n d of a c o r p o r a t e o r g a n i z a t i o n been c h a r a c t e r i s t i c of Monsanto? I know Mr. H a r b i s o n t o l a me u n d e r the Management By Rewards Program lower le v e l management people are expected to handle problems u n t i l they c a n ' t and i t ' s passed up and s o on u n t i l t h i n g s he c a l l e d m a t e r i a l p ro b lem s would r e a c h t h e h i g h e s t l e v e l s . Has t h a t been k i n d o f a tru e management a tt i t u d e ? A Yeah. Each kind of management has got an authorized l i s t of what h e 's accountable fo r and w h at money he can s p e n d , d e c i s i o n s he can make a nd t h e JAM ES MAY R EPORTING SERVICE It - * 54 % ' 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 i k e o.f t h a t . I t ' s s ' cO ^ r t o f o j i c '.i 1 t u r e c h a t th e r e is a c e r t a i n amount o f c o lie s guea 1 i t v t h a t s t i l l p r e v a i l s . So you d o n ' t do any o f th e s e t h i n g s ir. a v a c u u m . B u t C a r l's given you in e sse n ce . I would th in k t h a t anyt h i n g t h a t has t o do w i t h what we a r e d i s c u s s i n g t h i s m o m i .g i n t^c'r y ' f t e r n r , I g o t t o t e l l you I make i t my bu-~ i '.V/ss t o c?e Mr. H a n l e y knows p r e t t y much t h e s e things, g o i n g on p a r t i c u l a r l y what w i l l r e s u l t in p u b l i c rele ase of inform ation through the media. I t ' s nice n o t t o g e t him b l i n d s i d e d . Of c o u r s e , a s tim e has gone on, t h i s kind o f i s s u e has t a k e n on a d i f f e r e n t dimer,s ion than i t did t h i r t y and fort;? year', ago. (Vhereupon a s h o r t r e c e s s was t a k e n , a f t e r which the follow ing proceedings were h a d :) Q (5y Mr. C a l w e l l ) M r. T h r o c a h l , I ' m now h a n d i n g you w h a t ' s been marked P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h i b i t 366 (Monsanto #83229(8, *8326238, *8323143, *8323146, #8323203 through #8323205, #8323234, #8323235, #8323245 t h r o u g h -*8323243, #236205 t h r o u g h >'*236208, #236212 through #236215, #8323313 through #8323315, #832318 through #832320, #8323334 through #8323336, #8323340 through #8323342, #8323370 through #8323372 -#8323392 Through #8323394, #236245, #236246, #236249 through #236252, #8323748 through #8323751, #8323831, #8323832, JAM ES MAY R EPORTING SERVICE Jl 1 55 % 1 Rarhi.-. or i r , and Tee u r ' r q-ns-r? 1 Yanar^r t h a t 2 worked fo r Harhi*on a t th a t t i . - ' . " K z I va? tr ^ in ? 3 t o nn h e r e vg s t o deal, w i t h a nurhe*' of e v r t " t h a t 4 wer? o c c u r r i n g , some of t h e n t h a t ha 6 nodia c ^ r a r - 5 quences and t h a t I f e l t was s i r . c l v g o ing t o be n e c e s s a r y f o r us t o ha-o th e n p - r o ^ r i n to a t t e n t i o n g iv en so t h a t 7 we cou2'J p u 1] t o g e t h e r a" a p p r o p r i a t e r e s o u r c i n g o f 8 b o t h hurar. r r . s o u r c e s and money t o e i t h e r c o r r e c t a l l e 9 g a t i o n s t h a t vc-re n o t c o r r e c t or t o c o n t i n u e t o v o r 10 a t prob l e a ? w h i c h , I g u e s s , in an e a r l i e r t i n e we n i g h t 11 have t h o u g h t were behind u s . ? i i r was h o t t i n g up. 12 Remember, by t h a t time Yonouone had been a c t i v e and 13 th e A ge nt Grange s u i t , ^nd Agent Oran re was, a n^ d i o x i n , 14 was r e a l l y kind of a , T g u e s s , a f o c a l p o i n t a ro u n d 15 w hich a l o t o f t n i s was p u t t o g e t h e r . But a t N i t r o 16 we had a number o f problem s of t h i s k i n d , and I j u s t 17 f e l t t h a t we had t o have someone t o f o c u s th e e f f o r t 18 b e ca u se I was g o in g t o be th e grand m a s t e r a l key m y s e l f 19 t h a t was g oing t o t r y t o a s s u r e r . y r e l f from a c o r p o r a t e 20 p o i n t o f view we were d o i n g what we sh o u l d be d o i n g 21 and c o m m unicating what we were d o i n g ?o t h a t indeed 22 the N i t r o P l a n t was t o be seen by our w o r k e r s a t N i t r o , 23 by our w o r k e r s e l s e w h e r e , by t h e p u b l i c i n s o f a r a s we 24 can p e rs u ad e them, t h a t N i t r o was a s a f e p l a c e in which 25 t o work, t h a t we were g i v i n g due a t t e n t i o n t o th e new JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE i\ 58 % II 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 i s s u e s t h a t were c or: - t a t a r i s i n g ' V . Arc s o v : t h the t r e t h e ;; b r o p. d r v r i t; .**>ur - v a r t l c . , t h a t ' - i -!: y i t vas p u t t o g e t h e r . 0^; a t the r u b - y - c t . e e t t u r a u'. t h a y go a l o n g wesx. in s..c week o u t , you can s'-e t n a t t n e r e is an a t t e m p t h e re - - I t say sees to h - dx. jo^nt-. - - out there a re themes C h a t run t h r o u g h i t . I gue.-f. you nave been i n v o l v e d in t h i s 01\ y enough to knov. tria t e n v i r o n m e n t a l prob lems a r e going to p ro bably never go away so long as our s o c i e t y i s i n t h . mood c h a t i t ' s in nc*; and t h a t t h e r e w i l l a lw a y s be new thing.1 t o linow a b o u t what you t h o u g h t was, rjuot-: , r a f t ' . W'e ar< In th e u n c o m f o r t a b l e p o s i - t i o n in a h of t h e r e t h i - g- of h a v i n g t o prove n e g a t i v e s . I d o n ' t know w!l? t your legs*. t r a i n i n g was beyond the law, but proving a n e g a tiv e is something t h a t you never r e a c h , and we a r e always t r y i n g t o r i f . I ' l l be g l a d t o go i n t o more d e t a i l in these t h i n g s i f you l i k e . ur whole a t t e m p t here war to sim ply a s s u r e m y self and then f o r me t o a s s u r e my c o l l e a g u e s on the p o l i c y com uitt-e sue ny co lleag u es or. the Board of D ire c to rs t h a t in d ee d we were d o in g our l e v e l b e s t t o c o r r e c t problems th a t needed i t and to prevent problems i f we could a n t i c i p a te them. Q Whose d e c i s i o n w a s i t t o c r e a t e t h e task force? JAM ES MAY REPO RTING SERVICE It i 59 % 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 a Q And i t v;as a t your i u . ^ e s c i o n a - the. v e ry b e g in n in g t h a t chi* be d o n e, is t h a t r i g h t ? A Yes. Q And d id you have to g e t c l e a r a n c e froci an y b o d y e l s e t r em bcrk on t h i s , or was t h i s c l e a r l y w ith in your realm of a u th o rity ? A I took i t. No. I have th a t a u t h o r i t y . I th in k . Q In the f i r s t paragraph - - A Y ou're lo o k in g a t the top one? Q Y e s, r . i r . n pogn 1. You o b s e r v e t h a t you have a sk e d Dr.:. M cC arviilc. and C a I l l s to _eac th is group. A Yes. Q Ann I q u o te , to t h i n k th r o u g h and f o r m a liz e a s t r a t e g y and a p la n t h a t w i l l make c e r t a i n a l l a p p r o p r ia te re s o u rc e s w ith in or outs5.de th e c o r p o ra - t i o n a r e b e in g a p p lie d to r e s o lv e th e many i n t e r r e l a t e d and d i f f i c u l t s itu a tio n ? su n o u n d in g the N itro H ealth Study invo lv in g trich lo ro p h e n o ] . A Uh h u h ( y e s ) . Q N o w , h a v e y o u t o l d me i n y p u r g e n e r a l s t a t e m e n t w h a t th e i n t e r r e l a t e d and d i f f i c u l t s itu a tio n s were th a t you were co ncerned w ith ? JAM ES MAY REPO RTING SERVICE 60 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A You ? s y have I c o ld you? Q Yeah. A W ell, 1 th in k i f you go through the thread of what I'v e said , yes. Q Is t h e r e a n y t h i n g e l s e y3u want t o adc to that? A Around t h i s time I r v i n g S e l i k o f f was a sk ed by one of the J n i o n s , I d o n ' t remember which one now, b u t one of th e linions t o make a h e a l t h s t u d y a t N i t r o . We l i k e w i s e were g o in g t o have Dr. S uskind do s i m i l a r l y . The t i m i n g o f t h i s i s now n o t c l e a r in my mind. I d o n ' t know w h e t h e r I d i d t h i s b e f o r e S e l i koff performed h is work or a f t e r , but i t ' s aw fu lly c l o s e , somewhere in t h e r e . As I remember i t , th e S e l i k o f f p e o p l e , Dr. Moses in p a r t i c u l a r , came t o the N i t r o p l a n t some time a ro u n d t h a t summer and d i d some of t h a t s t u d y , and a t t e n d a n t w i t h t h a t was an a w f u l l o t of m i s i n f o r m a t i o n , was an a w f u l l o t of i n f o r m a t i o n w h ich was m i s i n t e r p r e t e d a n d , I s u p p o s e , some of i t was v a l i d ; b u t a t a n y r a t e , we knew w h a t e v e r we d i d t h a t we t h o u g h t was w i t h i n our purview of s o c i a l r e s p o n s i b i l i t y was going t o be m i s u n d e r s t o o d by the m edia, and i t was, a l l so rts of media, l o c a l , r e g i o n a l , s o on. Q Where d i d you g e t y o u r m o t i v a t i o n to create th is ta s k force? J u s t from th e m edia o r was JAM ES MAY REPO RTING SERVICE Jl ,1 61 1 there any other? 2 A No, no. I'm n o t su re w hat the e x a c t 3 e v e n t was th a t tr ig g e r e d i t , I honest?'- c a n 't renum ber. 4 I t h i n k thfe w a y , I w a t c h a l o t a n d w h e n t h i n g s s t a r t 5 r e p e a tin g th em selv es - - I have a q u ie t tim e b efo re you 6 get up, probably, th at I ponder about a lo t of these 7 t h in g s , and t h a t 's when I do a l o t o f t h i s . There was 8 a s e r i e s o f t h in g s to come t o g e t h e r , and I g u e ss I 9 s a id to m y s e lf, w e l l , I 'v e g o t to have some s p e c i f i c 10 a t t e n t i o n o n t h i s o n e b e c a u s e o u r s t a n d a r d o r g a n i z a 11 t i o n s a r e n ' t d o i n g i t . We h a d o u r f e l l o w t h a t i r k s 12 a f t e r e n v i r o n m e n t a l l a w a n d t h e r e ' s a f e l l o w t h a t 13 W e l l , t h e r e ' s a p u b l i c r e l a t i o n s m a n , a g u y n a m e d 14 H o l z a p f e l , w h o a t t h a t t i m e w a s t h e M a n u f a c t u r i n g 15 S u p e r i n t e n d e n t , we h a d a m a n n a m e d J e s s e e w h o w a s o u r 16 s p e c i a l i s t o n h a z a r d o u s w a s t e , M c C a r v i l l e i s my s u r r o 17 g a t e , h e ' s k i n d o f l i k e a n a d v a n c e s c o u t . He p o k e s 18 a r o u n d a n y w h e r e a n d w h e n h e s e e s s o m e t h i n g b e g i n t o 19 r e p e a t i t s e l f , h e s a y s , g e e , t h i s i s s o m e t h i n g we 20 b e tte r put our a tte n tio n on. I t 's th a t a n tic ip a tio n , 21 a s m u c h a s p o s s i b l e . N o m a t t e r w h a t we d i d o r h o w w e l l 22 w e o r g a n i z e d , w e c o u l d n ' t a n t i c i p a t e e v e r y t h i n g . I n 23 f a c t , I w o u l d n ' t b e p r u d e n t t o t r y t o d o i t j - Anyway, 24 I c a n ' t t e l l y o u e x a c t l y , b u t t h e r e w e r e a s e r i e s o f 25 e v e n t s t h a t p o i n t e d t o me I n e e d e d s o m e h e l p . I g o t JAM ES MAY REPO RTING SERVICE iI t 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 some more t h i n g s going in o t h e r a r e a s now, o u t o n ly f o r th e p u r p o s e of t r y i n g t o do a be t t e r j o b . Q Thii June 1 s t , 1979, nemo, which 1^ th e f i r s t page o f e x h i b i t 366, was t h i s s o r t of the f i r s t formal memo t o g e t t h i s t h i n g k i c k e d o f f and r o l l i n g ? A To my r e c o l l e c t i o n i t i s . I know I discussed this with ~ther people beforehand, but the f a c t th a t I wrote to the Managing D ire c to r, Harbison, i s my way of s a y i n g , E a r l , I c a n ' t o r d e r you t o a g r e e t o t h i s b u t t h e s e a r e mv i n t e n t i o n s . As I r e c a l l , E a r l was v e r y s u p p o r t i v e of i t . I d o n ' t know t h a t he would r e c a l l having seen t h i s , but t h a t 's been the whole substance of i t . Q During your hours of contemplation in the e a r l y morning did you hearken back to the e a r l y days a t K i t r o as you thought ab o u t t h i s problem? A No, p ro b ab ly n o t . I ' v e th o u g h t a b o u t t h a t m y s e l f . You know, i t ' s l i k e a c h a p t e r in a book t h a t ' s been c lo s e d . I remember l iv i n g th e r e , working t h e r e , and when I go back i t ' s s o r t of l i k e B r id e s h e a d R e v is it e d , I remember something about i t but I d o n 't r e a l l y a t t a c h m y s e l f t o i t much a n y more. Q Is th is v e h ic le t h a t you c re a te d c a l le d , i t became known a s t h e N i t r o Task F o r c e o r H e a l t h S t u d y Task Force? JAM ES MAY REPO RTING SERVICE If i 63 t 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Probably. 0 Did vou r e f r e s h vom r e c o l l e c t i o n ab o u t the occurrences at Nitro? A No. I t h i n k we apd so many problems t h a t were o f th e c o n t e m p o r a r y s t y l e t h a t t h a t was s u f f i c i e n t . I t comes to pass a s time has gone on. I ' ve been reminded of e v e n t s t h a t o c c u r r e d , some o f which happened w h ile I was t h e r e . 0 You were t h e r e in N i t r o in 1949 when, a s we u n d e r s t a n d i t , some kind o f a p r e s s u r e v e s s e l exper fenced a runaway chemical rea ctio n th a t u ltim a te ly l i b e r a t e d p r o d u c ts of unknown d e c o m p o sitio n and caused some c o n s i d e r a b l e damage t o the v e s s e l and spewed a s u b s t a n c e over an a r e a . Do you r e c a l l t h a t i n c i d e n t ? A veah, I re c a ll th at i t happened. Q You were w o r k i n g in t h e r u b b e r l a b a t the time? A Uh huh ( y e s ) . Q Following that explosion there deve loped a number of c o m p l a i n t s by the men who were e ith e r d ire c tly involved or associated with the explosion or subsequently involved in the cleanup of the m aterials th a t were lib e ra te d . Do you r e c a l l that? A I re c a ll a cleanup o c c u rre d , but there was some, a s I remember i t , t h e r e was so m e time l a p s e JAM ES MAY REPO RTING SERVICE Jl 41 64  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 betw een t h e c le a n u p and v;hnt l a t e r became known as chloracne. Q And you saw c h l o r a c n e on p e o p le w h i l e you were th ere ? A ^h, yes. Q You remember t h a t ? A Yes. Q You a l s o remember t h a t t h e r e was chloracne associated with the 2,4,5-T manufacturing process i t s e l f separate and a p a rt from the f a ilu r e of the p ressu re v e s s e l in 1949? A T h a t ' s a s p e c i f i c . I d o n ' t know w hether you can s e p a r a t e those two. I d o n ' t th in k the e s t e r i f i c a t i o n s t e p , t h a t d o e s n ' t y i e l d what now i s known a s d i o x i n . Q Maybe you m i s u n d e r s t o o d . T h ere were p e o p l e who worked in th e 2 , 4 , 5 - T p r o c e s s who were n o t p resen t a t the time of the explosion and did not take p a rt in the cleanup of the '49 incident. A I see. Q So were you aware t h a t those f o l k s also developed chloracne? A No, n o . T h a t ' s m o r e s p e c i f i c t h a n my memory would p e r m i t . Q Do you remember w h a t c o m p l a i n t s , i f a n y , JAM ES MAY REPO RTING SERVICE if t 1 65 1 t h r r r r'on w i t h c h i or* c m mcde a t chi1 t irie ? 2 A X t h i n k thfe i m c d i r , t ' ~ r e a c t i o n wan 3 how t o p e t jocie t r e a t m e n t , you know, t r r e d u c e th~4 v isin ', e ffe c ts and the disco; torture- of the chloracne, 5 But I do non renumber any of th: c o n f r o n t a ti o n s t h a t 6 may hsve o c c u r r e d or may n o t have o c c u r r e d , I r e a l l y 7 c?or. *t . 8 * id you l a t e r l e a r n ab o u t those th in g s ? 9 Veal., i n d i r e c t l y . Many, many y e a r s 10 la t o r . 11 C I n *-ha t c c n t e y t d i d you l e a r n a b o u t 12 t h o - e thin r-s? ',,'h e re were vou, h'* did i t come- up? 13 A This i s e l l v e r y fuzr.y t o me. I 14 r e a l t y c a n ' t s a y . I t h i n k a l o t of f t , anc I ' m n o t 15 b e i n g c.vasive h e r e , I t h i n k a l o t o f i t ha? cone t o 16 be ir. the l a s t t h r e e or f o u r y e a r s v h i r e t h i s has beer, 17 r e g u r g i t a t e d on a b a s i s of h e a r s a y or o t h e r p e o p le 18 t e l l i n g a b o u t . So, a g a i n , w h i l e I -Tar t h e r e , i t ' s 19 i n c r e d i b l e , b u t I do n o t remember any of t h o s e e v e n t s . 20 I do remember t h a t the m e d ic a l o e o p l e , I suppose i t 21 was K e l l y , c o n t a c t e d Dr. S u s k in d who was an e x p e r t ir*, 22 I g u e s s , he c a l l e d h i m s e l f a d e r m a t o l o g i s t a t t h e time 23 b u t I t h i n k o f a d e r m a t o l o g i s t a s b e i n g somebody t h a t 24 look s a f t e r more c o s m e t i c e f f e c t s , b u t I know he was 25 c a l l e d in t o g i v e t r e a t m e n t . There was somebody e l s e , JAM ES MAY REPO RTING SERVICE JI il 1 b u t I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r t h e name* o f tk<- p e r s o n s t a l l 2 t h a t w a s i n v o l v e d . I t h i n k t h i r w a s done* n s a v e r y 3 r e s p o n s i b l e m e a n s , v e r y m u c h l i k e - , * .. I r e c a l l , K e ' ' v 4 d i e w h e n t h e PAD t h i n g b e c a m e s u s p e c t . I w a r p a r t o f 5 t h a t u r o g r a m w i t h PAD a n d s t i l l a m . S o I g u e s s I t o o t 6 th a t in s t r i d e and s a id , w e ll, O .K ., som ething has 7 happened, they arc g e ttin g the s p e c ia lis ts in to h elp . 8 But beyond th a t I d o n 't have any r e c o lle c tio n . 9 Q Did you have any r o . c o l l e c t i o n of 10 s t u d i e s r e g a r d i n g t h e i l e l l i n I n s t i t u t e ? 11 A You mean t h e P i t t s b u r g h Me 11in? 12 Q Yea h . 13 A You mean t h a t Monsanto s p o n s o r e d ? 14 Q At the time you were a t Monsanto 15 in the early '5 0 's. 1 6 A Mo. 17 Q Did you e v e r see Dr. Suskind a t t h e 18 N i t r o P l a n t In the e a r l y ' 5 0 ' s when you were t h e r e ? 19 A No. I d i d n ' t meet him u n t i l much, 20 much l a t e r . 21 Q Do y o u k n o w i f D r . K e l l y came t o t h e 22 N i t r o P l a n t a b o u t t h i s t i m e o f t h e e x p l o s i o n ? 23 A I d o n o t r e c a l l s p e c i f i c m e e tin g s 24 I m i g h t h a v e b e e n p r e s e n t w i t h K e l l y , b u t I w ould have 25 a s s u m e d h e ' d c o m e . I d o n ' t r e c a l l a n y s u c h i n c i d e n t JAM ES MAY REPO RTING SERVICE It t 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 pLs.c w i t h s m a l l s e s K pk.'.t: a q u l p u ^ n t i t unlike a l a b t h a t would be d e v o t e d l a r g e 1v t o '1a -<m'ore and s.0 o n . I >jnow t h a t o c c u r r e d lr. th e : l ' - : - N v t 'va \ *48. I t r a y h av c been overt e a r l i e r t h a n ' 4 C, I d o n ' t remember t h a t , b u t I t h i n k i t ws 194? the t t h e p r o d u c t i o n began in the p lan t th a t had the ruptured d isk . Q No-o, ir. te rm s o f w h a t d e v e l o p e d t o b e the Developmeet Department th a t we t a l k e d a b o u t e a r l i e r , i n 194 would t h i s h e r b i c i d e 2 , 4 , 5 - T have beer, a p ro d u ct t h a t was in the development s t a g e a s or posed t o the market stage? A I d o n ' t k n o - . You oe, tlia t would have been controlled out o f the 'It. Toui^ opera tio n , and I d o n ' t know when wc b g a 0. - - i t may have b e e n , i t may n o t . I j u s t c a n ' t sa *. Dee, 2 , 4 , 5 - T was c known c h e m i c a l , and whe; Mon??-* t o made i t s f i r s t b e g i n n i n g s a t p e s t i c i d e s , 7. know t h e v nade DDT f o r a while and they probably acquired chat process from some- body: and I suppose t h e y d i d th e same t h i n g f o r 2 , 4 , 5 - T , b u t t h a t goes beyond my d i r e c t r e c o l l e c t i o n . I j u s t d o n ' t know who had th e r e s p ^ n s i b i l i t v f o r i t in *43, ' 4 9 . Q And i n '4 3 or ' 4 9 , would t h a t r e s p o n - s i b i l i t y have been under the D ir e c to r o f Research in terms o f bringing this product a l o n g ? A Yes. JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE II i \ 69 t 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 `22 23 24 25 Q And when you became A s s i s t a n t D i r e c t o r of R e s e a r c h i n , when was i t , 1950, *51? A Yeah. Q Were you aware of a n y work in c o n nection with the 2,4,5-T process a t Nitro? A I ' m s u r e I was aware i t was going on. You c o u l d n o t b e , th e p l a c e was t h a t s m a l l . But I could be aware of something and n o t be d i r e c t l y concerned w ith i t s progress or whatever. Yeah, I must have been aware of i t . Q I f there were any problems with the p r o c e s s , even i f you were copied w i t h memoranda t h a t may show t h a t you were aware of them, w o u l d n ' t i t have been your job to take any a ctio n with reference to 2,4,5-T? A Not u n l e s s I m ig h t have had some s p e c i a l knowledge of i t . We used t o have a number o f n^etings of small groups, and I'm c e rta in th a t I s a t i n on some o f t h o s e , b u t remember t h a t i f you r e l a t e t h i s t o a runaway r e a c t i o n , we made a p r o d u c t c a l l e d m e r c a p t o b e n z o t h i a z o l e which was made u n d e r p r e s s u r e conditions. Q You c a l l t h a t MBT7 A Yeah. And a n y t h i n g t h a t ' s made u n d e r re a lly d iffic u lt conditions, whether i t 's pressure, high JAM ES MAY REPO RTING SERVICE Jl i 1 70 t* 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 tem perature or w hatever, y o u 're conscious of the fa c t th a t these th in g s a re c r u c ia l and c r i t i c a l , so y o u 're a w a r e o f t h e m b u t t h e y a r e b e i n g h a n d l e d . We w e r e h an d lin g carbon d is u lf id e , which is a v ery inflam m able m a te r ia l. T hat was p a r t o f th a t p r e s s u r e r e a c tio n . S o , y a h , y o u ' r e a w a r e o f t h e m b u t you d o n ' t p a y t h a t much a t t e n t i o n , and p e o p le a r e t a l k i n g about* problem s of th a t s o rt c o n sta n tly . I t 's p a rt of the d ay -to -d ay c o n v e rsa tio n . Q And w ere t h e r e d i s c u s s i o n s a b o u t th e c h lo ra c n e o u tb rea k in th a t c o n te x t? A No, n o t th a t I'm aw are o f; a lth o u g h , I know t h a t o ne o r tw o o f my v e r y c l o s e s u p e r v i s o r y f r ie n d s were in v o lv ed in th e c le a n u p , and one o f them had some s e r i o u s f a c i a l c o n ta m in a tio n w h ic h he liv e d w i t h . I saw t h a t th ro u g h h is e x p e r ie n c e . Q On t h e c a r b o n d i s u l f i d e , d o y o u r e c a l l w hat in fo rm a tio n was a v a i l a b l e f o r th e p eo p le who w ould have been w orking w ith th is a t th a t tim e as to the dangers of w orking w ith i t , w hether i t 's hazardous or toxic or anything like that? A W ell, in a l l these processes there are p r o d u c t i o n m a n u a ls , an d th e p r o d u c t i o n manual, i f you've seen one, is a, I guess y o u 'd c a l l i t , a fancy recipe b o o k i n w h ic h i t g i v e s you v e r y e x p l i c i t i n s t r u c t i o n s on JAM ES MAY REPO RTING SERVICE J( 71 1 how to lo a d th e r e a c t o r s w i t h v a r io u s r e a c t a n t s , u n d er 2 what co n d itio n s, under what s a fe ty procedures and so 3 on an d on, and i t g iv e s you t h a t in g r e a t d e p t h , and 4 people are tra in e d along th a t lin e in the e a rly stages 5 o f a p ro c ess. S ta r t up the p rocess ch e m ist from a lab o ra to ry , they are p art of th a t s ta rtu p them selves, 7 th e y t r a i n e d o p e r a to rs on a l l th e p r o c e s s e s . This 8 is j u s t common p r a c t i c e . S o , y e a h , y<xi*re t a u g h t how 9 to handle flam nablcs lik e carbon d is u lf id e in th a t 10 w a y . I t s t a r t s w i t h t h e p r o c e s s m a n u a l , i t s t a r t s 11 w i t h p e o p l e b e i n g t r a i n e d a n d r e t r a i n e d a n d r e t r a i n e d 12 a n d r e t r a i n e d . I t ' s j u s t o n g o i n g . We a r e v e r y c o n 13 s c i o u s o f m a k i n g c e r t a i n t h a t p e o p l e f o l l o w s a f e 14 p r a c t i c e s i n s o f a r a s t h e y p o s s i b l y c a n . 15 Q Do y o u k n c v i f p e o p l e a t N i t r o d u r i n g 16 t h e t i m e y o u w e r e t h e r e w e r e a d v i s e d a s t o a n y s u s p e c t e d 17 o r r e a l l o n g - t e r m h e a l t h e f f e c t s f r o m r e p e a t e d e x p o s u r e 18 t o c a r b o n d i s u l f i d e ? 19 A I c a n ' t r e c a l l t h a t a s a n e x p l i c i t 20 a n s w e r t o j o u r q u e s t i o n . I j u s t w o u l d a s s u m e s o b e c a u s e 21 c a r b o n d i s u l f i d e h a s a b a d e f f e c t o f k n o c k i n g y o u o u t 22 i f y o u w a l k t h r o u g h a n a t m o s p h e r e o f i t , s o d o e s h y d r o 23 g e n s u l f i d e . We u s e b o t h o f t h e m t h e r e . -- 24 Q A n d i f t h e r e was t o be any a d v ie e t o 25 t h e w o r k e r s a b o u t r e p e a t e d l o n g - t e r m , you know, h e a l t h JAM ES MAY REPO RTING SERVICE ft i \ 72 t 1 e f f e c t s , l o n g - t e r m h e a lth e f f e c t s from r e p e a t e d e x o o s u r e 2 to carbon d i s u l f i d e , i t would ap p e ar in the p ro d u c tio n 3 m a n u a 1? 4 A Yeah, but in the case of your e x p l i c i t 5 q u e s t i o n , c a rb o n d i s u l f i d e r e a c t s on you i n s t a n t l y , so th e re a re no lo n g -term e f f e c ts . 7 Q Even a t low levels of exposure, is 8 th a t your unders tar.cing? 9 A Yeah. I d o n 't know w h at th o se l e v e l s 10 a r e q u a n t i t a t i v e l y . 11 Q Y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h e t o x i c i t y 12 o f i t is i f you g e t in i t , i t knocks you out i m e d l a t e 13 l y a n d t h a t ' s t h a t ? 14 A Uh h u h ( y e s ) . 15 Q A n d w h a t a b o u t p e r s o n s w h o w e r e 16 k n o c k e d o u t m o r e t h a n o n e t i m e b y i t , i s t h e r e a n y 17 a c c u m u l a t i v e e f f e c t o f t h a t , a s f a r a s y o u k n o w ? 18 A N o t t o my k n o w l e d g e . 19 Q A n d i f t h e r e w e r e , i f M o n s a n t o k n e w 20 t h a t t h e r e w e r e , t h a t k i n d o f a d v i c e w o u l d a p p e a r i n 21 t h e p r o d u c t i o n m a n u a l , i s t h a t r i g h t ? 22 A Yeah, b u t new - - I ' m t r y i n g t o an sw er 23 your q u e s t i o n f a i r l y . I would t h i n k t h a t somebody t h a t 24 had been i n v o lv e d a c c i d e n t a l l y on c e, i t would be u n u s u a l *> 25 f o r them t o be i n v o l v e d i n i t a n y more t h a n once. JAM ES MAY REPO RTING SERVICE \ Jl it 73 1 Q And why would th? t be an unusus'' 2 occurrence? 3 A W e l l , I ' v e n e v e r b e e n k n o c k e d o u t by 4 i t , but w orking w ith i t in the la b o r a to r y you som etim es 5 g e t s o m e t h i n g . I t ' s p a r t o f y o u r own p r o t e c t i v e s e n 6 s i b i l i t i e s . So you c a n w r i t e these things in manuals 7 a b o j t s a f e l i a n d l i n g a n d y o u c a n t e a c h p e o p l e how t o 8 d o t h i s , b u t we s t i l l k i l l p e o p l e i n a u t o m o b i l e s on 9 th e same b a s i s . I t ' s the same k in d of th in g . 10 Q D i d M o n s a n t o h a v e a p o l i c y a t t h i s 11 t i m e w h e n y o u w e r e a t N I t r o n o t t o r e e x p o s e s o m e o n e 12 w h o h a d b e e n e x p o s e d t o a l e v e l o f c a r b o n d i s u l f i d e 13 t h a t w o u l d p e r h a p s k n o c k t h e m o u t ? 14 A O h , I d o n ' t t h i n k t h a t ' s a r i g h t 15 q u e s t i o n . D o we h a v e a p o l i c y n o t - - I t h i n k we h a v e 16 a p o l i c y o f s a f e p r a c t i c e s . I t w o u l d b e h a r d f o r me 17 t o s a y y e s o r n o t o t h a t o n e . 18 Q Y o u h a v e n o p l a n w h e r e p e r s o n s a r e 19 k n o w n t o h a v e b e e n e x p o s e d t o , f o r e x a m p l e , c a r b o n d i 20 s u l f i d e o r a s u b s t a n c e i n t h e w o r k p l a c e s t h a t c a u s e s a 21 d e r m a t i t i s o r a c h l o r a c n e , t o r e m o v e t h e m f r o m f u r t h e r 22 e x p o s u r e t o t h o s e s u b s t a n c e s , i s t h a t n o t o n e o f y o u r 23 p r a c t i c e s ? 24 A W e l l , n o w y o u ' r e g e t t i n g i n t o th e 25 d e p o r t m e n t a r e a , i t s e e m s t o m e . I d o n ' t q u i t e know h o w JAM ES MAY REPO R TIN G SERVICE t o a n s w e r y o u r q u e s t i o n , r e a l l y , Do we have a p o l i c y th a t i f someone is exposed once that he's fo re v e r for b id d en to go back a g a in . Q I'm a s k in g you i f h e 's removed from fu rth e r exposure. A As I i n t e r p r e t your q u e s tio n , y o u 're saying i f h e 's exposed once to a n y th in g , h e 's im m ediately removed and never p erm itted back th ere ? Q Or i f h e ' s p e r m i t t e d b a c k , u n d e r some kind of a m onitoring program or under a m edical o b ser v a tio n program. T h a t's a p rin c ip le of in d u s tr ia l hy g ien e, is i t not? A Oh, s u r e . Q Was th a t t h e p r a c t i c e a t N i t r o w hen you were th ere ? A W ell, I guess your q u estio n is n o t c l e a r t o me a s t o w h a t y o u ' r e r e a l l y a s k i n g m e. S o r r y t o be th ic k a b o u t i t , b u t I d o n 't r e a l l y u n d e rs ta n d you. Q W ell, i f you had an o u tb reak of c h lo racn e a t the N itro P la n t and i t was a s s o c i^ e d w ith a p ro d u c t, did you have any plan to n o t reexpose those w o rk ers or a t l e a s t i f th e y w ere re e x p o se d to p la c e them under a m onitoring plan? that? . D id you take any a ctio n l i k e . . ' rfr ~ . a - .. . . .. y "f* ., A I h o n e s t l y d o n ' t k n c v t h a ' answer o f how JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE If 1 t h a t was h a n d le d b e c a u se now y o u 'r e t a l k i n g a b o u t t i ^ e 2 t h a t 1s p a s s e d . I f you u s e c a r b o n d i s u l f i d e , t h a t ' s 3 In s ta n t and you can determ ine cause and e f f e c t; and 4 I th in k t h a t 's got to be the resp o n se to your q u e stio n , 5 is there a d e fin ite causation e sta b lish e d , and if there 6 i s , I would b e lie v e i t oug h t to be th e p o lic y c e r t a i n l y 7 t o a v o i d t h a t . B ut now y o u 'r e a s k i n g me a b o u t a n 8 o p eratin g p ra c tic e th a t I w a sn 't clo se enough to to 9 r e a l l y know d i d th e y o r d i d n 't th e y . 10 Q N o w , d o y o u k n o w w h a t M o n s a n t o ' s e i t h e r .. 11 p o l i c y o r w h a t M o n s a n t o i n p r a c t i c e d i d w h e n i t w a s c o n 12 f r o n t e d w i t h a s i t u a t i o n , f o r e x a m p l e , l i k e t h e 2 , 4 , 5 - T 13 s i t u a t i o n i n N i t r o w h e n y o u h a d a l a r g e g r o u p o f 14 w o r k e r s w h o o b v i o u s l y b r o k e o u t i n c h l o r a c n e ? W a s i t 15 M o n s a n t o ' s p r a c t i c e t o r e m o v e t h o s e m e n f r o m f u r t h e r 16 e x p o s u r e ? 17 A I t w a s M o n s a n t o ' s p r a c t i c e t o d o s o m e 18 t h i n g a b o u t t h e p r o c e s s , f i r s t o f a l l , t o m a k e i t s a f e r 19 s o t h e r u n a w a y r e a c t i o n w o u l d n o t o c c u r ; a n d o n c e t h a t 20 was c o n ta in e d , I b e lie v e th ey would take th e view t h a t 21 w e n o w m a d e I t s a f e a n d w e a s k t h e m t o g o i n a n d w o r k . 22 . Q D i d t h e r e c o m e a t i m e t h a t y o u k n e w 23 t h a t M o n s a n t o k n e w t h a t i n f a c t t h e c h l o r f c c h a g e n - * * -"-W ' - ' ?' 24 a s s o c i a t e d w i t h 2 , 4 , 5 - T w c s a d i o x i n ? : . 25 A I d o n ' t t h i n k I b e c a m e a w a r e o d i o x i n J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 1> 76 6` 1 a s a n e n t i t y u n t i l eot> time in the mid ' c O ' s . I ' ve 2 t r i e d to r e c a l l t h a t . So X c o u ld n ' t answer you as to 3 whether or not Monsanto' s m anufacturing management 4 became aware of the presence of a th in g c a lle d the 5 d i o x i n . I t c e r t a i n l y w a s n ' t known i n *49. 6 Q Ana how d i d you fcecttne a w a r e o f t h a t 7 i n the mid ' 60' s? 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 - . 1 6 '*[ A Again, I th in k I t 's j u s t by the f a c t t h a t t h e r e was more r e p o r t e d i n t h e p r e s s on d i o x i n . The V ietn am war was coming t o a c l o s e . I t h i n k t h a t l i t e r a t u r e was becoming more f r e q u e n t l y c o n c e rn e d w i t h d i o x i n s one way or the o t h e r . Q In the mid *60*s? A Somewhere a lo n g in t h e r e . Q In 164 and ' 67 you were A s s i s t a n t General Manager of the I n te r n a tio n a l D ivision? A Uh huh ( y e s ) . 18 Q Then you became C o r p o r a t e V ic e P r e s i d e n t ^ 19 A Uh huh ( y e s ) . 20 Q I n t e r n a t i o n a l D i v i s i o n . Now, i n t h a t 21 p o s i t i o n d i d you have a n y r e l a t i o n s h i p o r c o n n e c t i o n 22 w i t h t h e movement o f m a t e r i a l s from Monsanto f o r u se 23 in the Vietnam war, such as Agent Orange orzherhifeldes? 24 ;*d*- - : A No. ( 25 q Did you k e ep a b r e a s t off tfeoae J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E i* 77 * 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 U . 15 * 16 v * . . '-v : y 7 ' 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 developments ? A N o. Q What l i t e r a t u r e and media were you l o o k i n g a t ln th e mid ' 6 0 ' s t h a t made you aware of d ioxin? A I can't recall specifically. Q Die you t a l k w i t h Dr. K e lly a b o u t i t ? No. Q about it? Did you t a l k w i t h Dow Chemical Company A No. Q Were you aware t h a t Dow Chemical Com- pany was t e s t i n g 2 , 4 , 5 - T f o r d i o x i n a t t h a t tim e? A No. Q Were you aware t h a t Monsanto was t e s t ing for 2 ,3 ,7 , 8 t e trachlorodibenzo-para-dioxin a t th at time? A (Shakeshead eg ativ ely .) Q You have t o s a y no. A No. I a n sw e r e d a l l th e q u e s t i o n s no, I d i d n ' t know t h a t . I d i d n ' t know Monsanto was or wasn' t tes ting for it. became Q aware of A But your r e c o l l e c t i o n is -that you .. i t i n t h e mid 1 O 1 ! - " - - ; * T '1 V * ' *` : r * T h a t ' s my r e c o l l e c t i o n . first JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E 7; #* 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 * * -f 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Ani did you e v e r l e a r n that; cio>. in or so:^ is.oner of i t did in f a c t cause. c h loracne? A Y o u 're a s k i n g me when d i d I l e a r n t h a t ? Q llh huh (y e s ). A I guess i t was p r o b a b l y a b o u t the sane time t h a t I was aware o f i t myself.^ x'm t r y i n g t o t h i n k a b o u t of what d i d I know a t the time and t r y i n g t o i g - % " * n o r e what I know now, and t h a t ' s w h at makes my time r e c o l le c t i o n so fuzzy there because I r e a l l y tvd no d i r e c t r e s p o n s i b i l i t y f o r t h o s e t h i n g s . I 'may have been aware o f some t h i n g s and i t would be s u b l i m i n a l i n my mind a t th e tim e . A c t u a l l y , t h e p r e s e n c e o f so m e th in g in m i n i s c u l e amounts s u c h a s we a r e now d e a l i n g w i t h in terms o f t h e 2,3,7,8-TCDD i s in many ways an a b s t r a c t , and you can t u rn your mind o f f r a t h e r q u i c k l y on some o f t h o s e t h i n g s . done th a t. I guess I must have Q Were you aware i n t h e e a r l y '50* s of a s i m i l a r a u t o c l a v e pro blem a t the BASF P l a n t i n Germany? A No. Q Did you L ater become aware of a s i m i l a r pro blem t h a t d e v e lo p e d t h e r e a t th e BASF P l a n t ? A No. - f e . ' JT :*-.- Q I s t h i s t h e f i r s t > f e t i 8 i yy o u e v e r bard o f th e BASF i n c i d e n t ? JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 79 1 A I know t h e r e a r e p r o b a b l y r e c o r d e d 2 a number of i n s ta n c e s , but I'm not f a m i li a r w ith those. 3 Q Did t h e r e l a t e r come a time a f t e r the 4 mid ' 6 0 ' s t h a t you found o u t t h a t i t was d i o x i n in the 5 a u t o c l a v e t h a t blew up in 1949 and t h a t i t was d i o x i n 6 associated with the ongoing process of the manufacture 7 o f 2 , 4 , 5 - T t h a t was c a u s i n g th e c h l o r a c n e a t N i t r o ? 8 A I t h i n k I became more aware o f t h a t 9 when th e Su skind s t u d y in the ' 7 9 p e r i o d , S u s k in d came 10 t o u s , I b e l i e v e , f o r r e a s o n s I d o n ' t r e c a l l now, b u t 11 so m e th i n g a b o u t r e p r e s e n t i n g h i s e x p e r i e n c e s . He had 12 some p e o p le he looked a t a t an e a r l i e r time and wanted 13 t o reex am in e them, and he came t o u s . At t h a t p o i n t 14 th e d e f i n i t e r e l a t i o n s h i p between d i o x i n - - When we 15 use t h a t term now, i t ' s 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 t e t r a c h l o r o - - I gue ss 16 by t h a t time I became q u i t e aware t h a t was t h e one t h i n g . 17 B u t, you know, pure 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 p r o b a b l y was n e v e r made 18 u n t i l a b o u t 1980 or ' 8 1 . So a l l o f th e t h i n g s t h a t you 19 have been a s k i n g me a b o u t i s u n d e r th e a s s u m p t i o n t h a t 20 t h e r e were no o t h e r p r o d u c t s p r e s e n t i n t h a t m i x t u r e . 21 Q During th e q u i e t time in t h e morning 22 when you were c o n t e m p l a t i n g th e p r o b le m s t h a t l e d you 23 t o s u g g e s t t o Mr. Ha nley t h a t you needed t o _ d e v e l o p 24 t h i s e n v i r o n m e n t a l p o l i c y c o m m i t t e e , was problem s i n 25 v o l v i n g the t r i c h l o r o p h e n o l p r o c e s s a t N i t r o one o f JAM ES MAY REPO R TIN G SERVICE If