Document 5bo03jvaOvmzvd1Ge8Q16mdre
FILE NAME: Chevron (CHV)
DATE: 1991 Nov 7
DOC#: CHV002
DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition of John Spence with Notes from BC
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CalNobth Reporting Service
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
FOUNTAINGROVE CORPORATE CENTRE ONE
V
3510 UNOCAL PLACE, SUITE III
SANTA ROSA, CALIFORNIA 95403
POST OFFICE BOX 4 5 0 0 LNTA ROSA. CALIFORNIA 9 4 5 0 2 -4 5 0 0
(707) 579-4500 (BOO) S47-444I FAX 1707) 579-5738
Mr. John A. Spence 1081 Lea Drive San Rafael, CA 94903
November 7, 1991 CSR No. 7645 Job No. 18886-2
Re: Harold Dennis vs. Abex Corporation
The original deposition transcript taken in the above matter on November 7, 1991 is now available for reading and signing at our office.
For 35 days following this notice the deponent, either in person or by a signed letter, may change the form or the substance of the answer to any question, and may either approve the transcript of the deposition by signing it, or refuse to, approve the transcirpt by not signing it.
We do not release the original transcript from this office.
You may read and correct your testimony from a certified copy of the original transcript which may be obtained only by the parties to this action at that party's expense.
Please telephone this office for an appointment if you desire to review the original deposition transcript.
Sincerely,
Cyntnia Manning, CSR 7645 cc: Counsel of record
1
IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
2
IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SAN FRANCISCO
3
4
HAROLD
DENNIS,
)
)
5
Plaintiff,
)
6
vs.
)
)
No.902130
)
7
ABEX CORPORATION, et al.,
)
)
8
Defendants.
)
______ __________________) 9
10 11 12
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VOLUME I
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DEPOSITION OF JOHN A. SPENCE
16
Thursday, November 7, 1991
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(Pages 1 - 6 9 )
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Reporter:
23
CYNTHIA L. MANNING,
CalN orth
24
CSR No. 7645
25
R eporting S ervice
Certified Shorthand Reportes
Fountadjgrove Corporate Centre One
26
3510 Unocal Place
Surs 111
Santa Rosa,California 95403
(707) 579-4500 (800)547-4441
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1
INDEX
2
3
WITNESS:
4
John A. Spence
5
EXAMINATION BY:
Page
6
James L. Hand, Esq.
5
7
Robert Beale, Esq.
63
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FURTHER EXAMINATION BY:
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James L. Hand, Esq.
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NOTE: No deposition exhibits were marked.
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BE IT REMEMBERED that, pursuant to
2
Subpoena, and on Thursday, the 7th day of
3
November, 1991, commencing at the hour of 3:10
4
p.m., at the Law Offices of BRAYTON & ASSOCIATES,
5
999 Grant Avenue, Novato, California 94948,
6
before me, CYNTHIA L. MANNING, CSR No. 7645, a
7
Notary Public in and for the County of Sonoma,
8
State of California, there personally appeared
9
JOHN A. SPENCE,
10
called as a witness by the Plaintiff herein, who
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being by me first duly sworn, was thereupon
12
examined and interrogated as is hereinafter set
13
forth.
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The law offices of BRAYTON &
15
ASSOCIATES, 999 Grant Avenue, Novato, California
16
94948, by JAMES L. HAND, Esquire, appeared as
17
Counsel on behalf of the Plaintiff; and
18
The law offices of JACKSON &
19
WALLACE, 33 New Montgomery Street Tower, 18th
20
Floor, San Francisco, California 94105, by ROBERT
21
BEALE, Esquire, appeared as Counsel on behalf of
22
Plant Insulation; and
23
The law offices of HARDIN, COOK,
24
LOPER, ENGEL & BERGEZ, 1999 Harrison Street, 18th
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Floor, Oakland, California 94612, by JAMES P.
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DOWNS, Esquire, appeared as Counsel on behalf of
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Western MacArthur; and
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The law offices of SEDWICK, DETERT,
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MORAN & ARNOLD, One Embarcadero Center, 16th
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Floor, San Francisco, California 94111, by MARK
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B. JACOBS, Esquire, appeared as Counsel on behalf
6
of Chevron Corporation.
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EXAMINATION
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BY MR. HAND: Q.
Would you please
3
state your name for us.
4
A.
John A. Spence.
5
Q.
Mr. Spence, I am James Hand. I
6
introduced myself to you earlier today.
7
Our office represents a number of
8
plaintiffs in asbestos litigation in Northern
9
California, mostly involving shipyards, but with
10
a fair amount of cases involving construction
11
sites and refineries and powerhouses and other
12
locations.
13
We have subpoenaed you today to come
14
testify before us so that we can learn more about
15
the events that give rise to some of the asbestos
16
litigation in Northern California.
17
Have you ever been deposed before?
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A. Yes.
19
Q. Can you tell me onapproximately
20
how many occasions?
21
A. I guess two times.
22
Q. You may remember, but I will remind
23
you, that although we're in informal surroundings
24
here today, you are giving testimony under oath,
25
just as you would be in a court of law.
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Is that understood?
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A. Fine.
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Q.
And if I ask a question that you
3
don't understand, please let me know, and I 'll
4
rephrase it.
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Is that all right?
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A. Fine.
7
Q.
Am I correct that on neither of the
8
other two occasions when you gave deposition
9
testimony was asbestos at issue?
10
A. Correct.
11
Q.
You are presently retired; is that
12
correct?
13
A. Yes.
14
Q. Can you tell us when you retired?
15
A. '83, '82.
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Q. Have you hadan opportunitybefore
17
you came here today to give deposition testimony
18
to meet with counsel for Chevron Corporation?
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A. Restate that, please.
20
Q. Have you had a chance before you
21
came here today to discuss your upcoming
22
deposition with counsel for Chevron Corporation?
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THE WITNESS: You're counsel for -- yeah.
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You're not with Chevron.
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Okay. Yes.
26
MR. HAND: Q.
And you have an
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attorney, Mr. Mark Jacobs, with you here today;
2
is that correct?
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A.
Yes.
4
Q.
Can you tell us when you first
5
began work for Standard, and we'll get to the
6
exact name in a moment, but the Standard or
7
Chevron group of companies?
8
A. 1945.
9
Q.
And what was the company known as
10
at that time that employed you?
11
A.
Chevron -- I guess it was Chevron
12
Research.
13
Q.
Or I suppose it wasn't even known
14
as Chevron back in '45, was it? It was still
15
Standard Oil?
16
A.
No, I think the research operating
17
company might have been Chevron.
18
Q. And can you tell us your first
19
position with Chevron Research?
20
A.
Research chemist.
21
Q.
And how long did you remain with
22
Chevron Research?
23
A. By that do you mean with Standard?
24
Q. Let's just take the company called
25
Chevron Research first.
26
A.
Nine years.
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Q.
And that would take us up to about
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1954?
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A.
Yes.
4
Q.
And then what did you do?
5
A.
The company elected to send me back
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to Harvard.
7
Q.
And what did you study back at
8
Harvard?
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A. Industrial hygiene.
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Q. And how long were you at Harvard?
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A. One year to get a masters.
12
Q. And then you obtained your masters
13
degree about 1955?
14
A. Yes.
15
Q. And did you return to Chevron
16
Research?
17
A.
No, I returned to the corporation.
18
Q. At that time Chevron Corporation?
19
A. Yes, I guess -- yes, probably was.
20
Q.
And were you' with Chevron
21
Corporation then from 1955 until you retired?
22
A. Yes.
23
Q. And I'm sorry, I missed the year
24
that you retired. 1983 you said?
25
A. I guess it was mid-'82.
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Q. When you began work at Chevron
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Corporation in 1955 what was your job position?
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A. Industrial hygienist.
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Q. Did you have a -- strike that.
4
What was the exact title of the position,
5
was that it, industrial hygienist?
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A. Corporate Industrial Hygienist is
7
as close as I can come.
8
Q.
A lot of these events occurred a
9
long time ago, so we understand if you can just
10
give us your best estimate or the best of your
11
recollection. If you don't remember, let us know
12
and that's fine as well.
13
A. Thank you.
14
Q. At some point at Chevron
15
Corporation did you become the head of the
16
Industrial Hygiene Department?
17
A. Yes.
18
Q. And whenwould thathave
been?
19
A.
Well, I was always the head.
20
Q.
When did they actually have a
21
formal department that they called it?
22
A. Well, they had a section -- you're
23
playing with words on a department. I would say
24
they had a section in Safety Division -
25
Q. Fine.
26
A. -- within amatter of acouple of
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years because we started adding people, but I was
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the manager of the Chevron Environmental Health
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Center later.
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Q.
And when did that begin?
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A.
That would be -- I really don't
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remember the date.
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Q.
The approximate year? Early '60s?
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Mid-'60s?
9
A.
Let's see. That would be '82 -
10
'72. Somewhere around '70. '70, '72.
11
Q. I need a little more help
12
understanding the structure in 1955.
13
A. Okay.
14
Q. Was there a Safety Division?
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Is that the term you used?
16
A. There was a Corporate Safety
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Division. The fledgling industrial hygiene was
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put under the Safety Division, so it would
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effectively work through the field safety system;
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but there was also a broken line where I reported
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to the medical director of the corporation.
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Q. How would you characterize the
23
relationship between the medical director and the
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Corporate Safety Division?
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A.
It was on the same floor very close
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and I was the liaison between the two.
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Q.
But the two were separate, one did
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not report to the other?
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A.
That's correct.
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Q.
Who would Corporate Safety Division
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have reported to in 1955?
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A.
General manager of personnel for
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the corporation.
8
Q.
And within Corporate Safety
9
Division there were sections; is that correct?
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
And one of those sections was
12
industrial hygiene?
13
A.
Right.
t
14
Q.
What were the other sections?
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A.
Compensation, Workmen's
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Compensation. So I guess it would be three,
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basically three sections.
18
Q.
I missed one. Industrial Hygiene.
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A.
Safety.
20
Q.
And Worker's Compensation?
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A.
And Worker's Compensation.
22
Q.
Then in 1955 were you head of the
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industrial hygiene section?
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A.
Head of myself, yes.
25
Q.
Was it a one-person section?
26
A.
For the first year.
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Q.
And then about 1956 additional
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professionals were hired into that section?
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A. Yes.
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Q.
And what were their job titles?
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A. Industrial hygienists.
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Q. You then began to supervise other
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industrial hygienists?
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A. Yes.
9
Q. Let's take a look at what the
10
structure was like, let's say, about ten years
11
later, mid-'60s. Was there still a Corporate
12
Safety Division?
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A. Yes.
14
Q.
And were there still the same three
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sections?
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A. Yes.
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Q. But the industrial hygiene section
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had changed so that instead of having one
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professional, yourself, there were several
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professionals?
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A. (Witness nods head.)
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Q. Is that "yes"?
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A. Yes.
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Q. Because of the court reporter, we
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need you to answer verbally.
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A. That's right. I get carriedaway.
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Q.
Can you tell me about how many
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industrial hygienists were on board by the
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mid-'60s?
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A.
I am afraid I'm not very close on
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this. There weren't many, four, five, something
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in that order. Somewhere in there we were
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getting toxicologists, but I can't tell you when
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just exactly.
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Q. What would the organization's
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structure have been?
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A. Pardon me?
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Q. Would that have been within
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industrial hygiene, within safety, or would this
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have been some other organizational unit?
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A. They were with the Safety
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Division -- I mean the Industrial Hygiene
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Division.
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Q. So around the mid-'60s you were
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supervising perhaps three or four other
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industrial hygienists and maybe one or two
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toxicologists?
22
A.
I can't tell you the mid-'60s. I
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don't remember the dates. It could be later. I
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just don't remember.
25
Q.
Once the toxicologists were hired,
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were they under your supervision?
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A. Yes.
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Q. When you were first employed by
3
Chevron Corporation as an industrial hygienist,
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what were your duties?
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A.
To develop a program to protect the
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employees, to make sure that our products were
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safe for their intended use.
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Q. Which employees were you concerned
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with protecting the health and safety of?
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A. Corporate employees, corporate
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family.
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Q. By that do you mean all employees
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throughout the family of companies?
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A. Chevron.
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Q.
So it would not have been simply
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employees of Chevron Corporation, it would have
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always included, for instance, employees of
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Chevron Chemical?
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A. Yes.
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Q. In the mid-1950s, to the best of
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your memory, what was the Chevron organizational
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unit that operated the Richmond refinery?
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A. Well, the operating company. The
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names change over the years, so I can't tell you
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in the '50s just exactly what the name was.
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Q. At some point the Richmond refinery
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was operated by a company referred to as Western
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Operations; is that correct?
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A. Yes. Yes.
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Q. What's your understanding of the
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full name of that company?
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A. I don't understand your question.
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Q.
Was the full name of the company
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Western Operations, Inc., or was it Chevron
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Western Operations, Inc., or what name do you
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understand the company had?
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A. I just recall Chevron -- Western
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Operations, Inc., as an operating company of
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Chevron.
14
Q.
And you understood in 1955 when you
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became the industrial hygienist at Chevron
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Corporation that one of your duties was to
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establish a program of industrial hygiene to
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protect the health and safety of workers of
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Western Operations, Inc.?
20
A.
No. No. They developed their own
21
program. I merely was there to counsel, advise.
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Q.
What do you understand was the
23
program of industrial hygiene in effect at the
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refineries in the mid- and late 1950s?
25
A.
Well, the safety engineer was in
26
charge of advising the local management, and
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safety provided coverage instructions and safety
2
equipment, and they had regular safety meetings
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with the employees to educate and advise on
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hazards.
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Q.
As you understood it, by the late
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1950s each refinery had one or more safety
7
engineers?
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A. To the best of my recollection.
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Q. Do you have any understanding as to
10
whether there was a safety manual provided to the
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local refineries that was not developed at each
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refinery one by one; that is, I don't care
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whether it's a manual developed by Western
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Operations and disseminated to all the refineries
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through Western Operations, or developed by
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Chevron Corporation, or developed by an outside
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company.
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What I am looking for is your best
19
recollection, in essence, on did each refinery
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develop their own safety and health manual, or
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were they provided some material outside of the
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local refinery?
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Do you understand what I mean?
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MR. JACOBS: I am going to object to the
25
question as compound, vague. It's got ambiguous
26
components and a couple of non sequiturs within
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it, which make it argumentative.
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MR. HAND: Q.
You may go ahead, Mr.
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Spence.
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MR. JACOBS: Did you understand the
5
question? If you don't understand the question,
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you can ask Mr. Hand to rephrase the question.
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THE WITNESS: Rephrase it. Apparently I
8
missed the point.
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'
MR. HAND: Q.
Well, I don't think you
10
missed the point. The question is whether
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material was provided from outside of the
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refinery or everything was initiated and
13
generated internal from the refinery? ~
14
A.
That's easy to answer. Information
15
was provided to the refinery.
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Q.
And who provided that information?
17
A.
Well, we provided it from the
18
corporation, industrial hygiene. The corporation
19
safety provided it. The API provided it. They
20
had an annual safety engineers meeting where
21
representatives from all the refineries came to
22
the corporation and information was provided at
23
that time.
24
Q.
Do you recall by the late 1950s
25
there being some type of an organized manual that
26
would be periodically updated as opposed to
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merely a series of separate communications
2
provided?
3
Was it organized in some way that you can
4
recall by chapters or numerically?
5
A.
I don't recall specifically such a
6
manual, but I wouldn't necessarily have that
7
manual.
8
Q.
You don't recall being provided a
9
draft of a manual for periodic or annual
10
revision?
11
A.
No, not a manual.
12
Q.
What I am trying to understand,
13
then, is by the late 1950s, if a question on
14
industrial hygiene arose at the local refinery,
15
what the nature of the material is that they
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would have to consult to address that question,
17
whether they could have, for instance, looked in
18
Chapter Number 3 of the Safety Manual, or looked
19
at Section 1.7 of the Industrial Hygiene Manual
20
or the Operating Manual?
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What do you understand existed at the
22
local refineries by the late 1950s that addressed
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industrial hygiene concerns?
24
A.
I really don't understand your
25
question.
26
MR. JACOBS: That's because it's
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argumentative and compound and it assumes facts
2
which haven't been testified to, and there are
3
certain aspects of it that are vague and others
4
which are ambiguous. So maybe Mr. Hand would
5
rephrase the question for you.
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THE WITNESS: I just don't understand
7
"the manual."
8
MR. HAND: Q. Okay. Sure. Well, that
9
is, for instance, the local refinery has a
10
question on -- let me strike that.
11
What would a chemical be that would be
12
found in many refinery operations that would
13
require some precautions be taken in the late
14
'50s? Like methyl or ethyl ketone?
15
A.
Phenyl. What's your question then?
16
Q. Phenyl?
17
A. Well, yeah.
18
Q. Is that one of the chemicals that
19
one would have to take some precautions when
20
handling?
21
A. Yes.
22
Q. Phenyl.
23
A. I just used that.
24
Q.
If the question arose in the local
25
refinery in the late 1950s as to what precautions
26
could be taken when working with phenyl, would
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the local refinery personnel look in the P
2
Section under phenyl? Or would they have a
3
section of a manual that addresses chemicals?
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Would the manual be organized numerically,
5
alphabetically?
6
I'm trying to understand what existed at
7
that time.
8
MR. JACOBS: Let me object to the
9
question. It's argumentative in any one of a
10
number of ways, James, because it assumes the
11
existence of things which, number one, may not
12
exist; number two, if they do exist, may not be
13
identical over the broad variety of locations
14
which are implicit in your question.
15
I mean, Mr. Spence has described safety
16
procedures at a local level, and you're trying to
17
extrapolate all the information and put it into a
18
manual which doesn't seem to exist. And it makes
19
your questions argumentative, and it makes them
20
compound in a way that makes it very difficult
21
for Mr. Spence to answer.
22
MR. HAND: Q. Well, all I'm trying to
23
look at is whether there was some type of manual.
24
Can you give us your best recollection of
25
what you understood existed at the time at the
26
refineries?
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A.
There was a wide variety of
2
literature, sources; for example, from API, for
3
example from us, from other safety engineers,
4
from other refineries. So they had all kinds of
5
reference material to go to.
6
Q.
But not organized in a manual of
7
some sort and by subject matter?
8
A.
I couldn't tell you what the
9
individual refinery had at that time.
10
Q. I believe earlier you described
11
annual meetings of plant safety personnel?
12
A. Corporate meetings, yes.
13
Q. What do you mean by a corporate
14
meeting?
15
A.
Well, it would be safety engineers
16
from, say, the Richmond refinery, the El Segundo
17
refinery, Chevron Chemical, and any other
18
operating unit that wanted to send a person.
19
Q.
Have you previously addressed some
20
of those meetings?
21
A. Yes.
22
Q. Have you previously attended
23
meetings of the API?
24
A. Yes.
25
Q.
Which sections of the API have you
26
attended meetings of?
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A.
The name of the sections varies
2
with time, but it was initially the Medical
3
Advisory Committee.
4
Q. And subsequently?
5
A.
Well, the name changed. I am not
6
going to go through all of the changes.
7
Q.
Can you remember any other
8
variations of the name?
9
A. Not really. Not accurately, no. I
10
think one was possibly Health and Biological
11
Science.
12
Q. Do you recall there being at some
13
point in the past an Industrial Hygiene
14
Committee?
15
A.
Yes, that was a subcommittee of
16
that committee.
17
Q.
Industrial Hygiene Committee was a
18
subcommittee of the Medical Advisory Committee?
19
A.
Right. Most medical directors took
20
their industrial hygienists as their technical
21
advisors.
22
MR. HAND: I'm sorry, could you -- Court
23
Reporter, could you read that back?
24
(The Reporter read the record as follows:
25
"Right. Most medical directors took
26
their industrial hygienists as their
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1
technical advisors.")
2
MR. HAND: Q.
Let's see if I
3
understand this a little better.
4
In the late 1950s there would be meetings
5
of something called the Medical Advisory
6
Committee of the API?
7
A. (Affirmative nod.)
8
Q. Is that right?
9
A. Yes.
10
Q.
And there were then subcommittees,
11
is that an accurate way to describe it?
12
A. Yes.
13
Q.
And one of those subcommittees was
14
the Industrial Hygiene Subcommittee?
15
A. Yes.
16
Q. What were some of the other
17
subcommittees of the Medical Advisory Committee?
18
A.
Over the years there were so many
19
subcommittees, I'm sorry, I can't -- I can't
20
recall any of them.
21
Q. I know you can't recall all of
22
them. Can you recall one or two for us?
23
A. There was a subcommittee on
24
asphalt.
25
Q.
And that would have been within the
26
Medical Advisory Committee?
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1
A. Yes.
2
Q. Can you recall -
3
A. That was evaluating toxicology of
4
asphalt.
5
Q.
Can you recall one or two others?
6
A.
Not in the 1950 era. Over the
7
years there was so many. I just can't separate
8
them.
9
Q.
Can you recall any names of any of
10
the other subcommittees at any time?
11
A. Well, there was one on noise.
12
Q. Any on specific chemicals?
'
13
A. I can't go back to the 1950s.
14
Sorry.
15
Q. Well, or even some time in the
16
1960s or the 1970s?
17
A. I draw a blank.
18
MR. JACOBS: It's okay.
19
MR. HAND: Q.
Can you remember any
20
more at this time?
21
A. I am blank now.
22
Q.
That's fine. If it comes to you a
23
little later, let us know. Is that all right?
24
A.
All right.
25
Q.
Do you recall there ever being any
26
subcommittees that addressed medical or safety
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1
aspects of silica?
2
A . No.
3
Q.
Do you recall there ever being any
4
subcommittees that addressed medical or safety
5
aspects of asbestos?
6
A.
No. There was a subcommittee on
7
product labeling.
8
Q.
There was a subcommittee on product
9
labeling?
10
A. Yes.
11
Q. Did they, to the best of your
12
recollection, have any discussion about asbestos?
13
A.
No.
,
14
Q. Do you recall there ever being any
15
discussions at any of these subcommittees as
16
regards asbestos, including the Industrial
17
Hygiene Committee?
18
A. No, I don't recall any.
19
Q. Do you recall there ever being any
20
discussions at any of these subcommittees on the
21
methods of dust control?
22
A.
No, there was no subcommittee on
23
dust control.
24
Q.
I understand it was not a
25
subcommittee on dust control. My question is
26
whether dust control was ever discussed at any of
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1
(Counsel and witness confer.)
2
THE WITNESS: Pardon?
3
MR. HAND: Q.
I 'm sorry. Your
4
attorney was talking to you so we lost the
5
question.
6
Were there any meetings of the Industrial
7
Hygiene Subcommittee that you attended where
8
asbestos was ever discussed?
9
A. Not to the best of my recollection.
10
Q. Do you recall ever being told by
11
any other employees -- strike that.
12
Do you recall ever being told by anyone
13
of discussions of asbestos at any Industrial
14
Hygiene Subcommittees meetings?
15
A.
Not that I recall.
16
Q.
Do you recall ever seeing minutes
17
of any Industrial Hygiene Subcommittee meetings
18
where the issue of asbestos was addressed?
19
A. No.
20
Q. And let's make it a little broader.
21
Have you ever been present where there was any
22
discussion of asbestos where there were persons
23
present representing other oil refinery
24
companies?
25
MR. JACOBS: Are we talking about at the
26
API now?
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MR. HAND: No. Anywhere.
2
Q.
For instance, if you went to visit a
3
Shell refinery, or to visit a Phillips refinery,
4
or you just met with a fellow industrial
5
hygienist from Exxon, and one of the issues that
6
you discussed or that others discussed in your
7
presence was asbestos.
8
So the question is, then, do you recall
9
there ever being any discussion of asbestos where
10
persons were present representing other refinery
11
companies?
12
A.
I do not recall it; however, it is
13
not improbable or impossible that at the American
14
Hygienist Association there would have been a
15
technical paper on measuring asbestos and I could
16
have been in the audience. So, you know, I can't
17
say no; but I don't recall it.
18
Q.
All I am asking is whether you
19
recall any.
20
A.
Yeah, well, I don't recall.
21
Q.
And outside of formal meetings, did
22
you, yourself, ever discuss asbestos with anyone
23
from another refinery company?
24
A. I don't recall.
25
Q. Do you recall ever seeing any
26
written information evaluating the thermal
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1
effectiveness of nonasbestos versus
2
asbestos-insulating materials?
3
A. NO.
4
Q.
Do you have any understanding as to
5
whether health aspects of asbestos was ever
6
discussed at any meeting of the Medical Advisory
7
Committee?
8
A. I am sure it was.
9
Q. Why?
10
A. Pardon?
11
Q. Why?
12
A.
Because it's just logical that it
13
would have been discussed. I do not recall the
14
specific situation.
15
Q. Did you attend any meetings of the
16
Medical Advisory Committee as opposed to the
17
Industrial Hygiene Subcommittee?
18
A. Yes.
19
Q. Those twobodies would meet
20
separately? is that correct?
21
A.
They could meet together and they
22
could meet separately.
23
Q. Do you recall therebeing publicity
24
coming to your attention in approximately the
25
mid-1960s of research being done through the Mt.
26
Sinai group and Dr. Irving Selikoff of health
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1
aspects of asbestos?
2
MR. JACOBS: Objection, vague as to time.
3
Go ahead.
4
THE WITNESS: The name Selikoff and Mt.
5
Sinai is familiar to me. I cannot recall
6
specifically if it had anything to do with
7
asbestos. I may or may not have been privy to
8
it.
9
MR. HAND: Q.
Do you recall by the
10
mid-1960s any of the industrial hygiene books or
11
other publications that you had access to at
12
Chevron? Any of the classics in the field that
13
you would have had in your possession or had
14
access to?
15
A.
I don't remember the names. That's
16
a long time for me.
17
Q.
Well, let me take a short break
18
here, I think I have a few names, and maybe I can
19
ask you about them in particular.
20
A.
I might recognize them once I hear
21
the name.
22
Q.
I suspect you will.
23
Let's take a quick break then.
24
(Recess taken.)
25
MR. HAND: Q.
Mr. Spence, I did after
26
some work find my list of some of the old
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publications.
Do you recall having access at Chevron in
the early or mid-1960s to any of the publications
by Patty?
A. Yes.
MR. BEALE: Patty?
MR. HAND: P-a-t-t-y.
THE WITNESS: Right. Frank Patty.
MR. HAND: Q.
Frank Patty's
"Industrial Hygiene and Toxicology"?
A. Right. We had that.
Q.
Did you also have access to Drinker
and Hatch's, "Industrial Dust"?
A.
Yes, had that at school, had all of
those at school.
Q. I'm sorry, what?
A. Yes.
Q. At school you also had used that as
a reference book?
A. Yes.
Q.
And that would have been at Harvard
'54-55; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And also Elkins' publication,
"Chemistry of Industrial Toxicology"?
A. Yes.
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Q. Also Brandt's publication,
2
"Industrial Health Engineering"?
3
A. Yes.
4
Q. And wasn't there an early
5
publication by Rutherford Johnstone?
6
A.
The name is very familiar, but I
7
can't visualize the book.
8
Q.
Do you recall having access to L.T.
9
Fairhaul's, "Industrial Toxicology," publication?
10
A. That's also a familiar name, but I
11
can't visualize the book.
12
Q. The masters degree that you
13
obtained from Harvard in 1955 would have been in
14
industrial hygiene?
15
A. Yes.
16
Q. Do you recallduring thatyear at
17
Harvard studying any information or material on
18
silicosis-producing materials, such as coal or
19
silica?
20
A. Yes.
21
Q. And do yourecallstudying methods
22
of reducing the risk of producing silicosis or
23
similar diseases?
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
And do you recall among those
26
methods of reducing the risk of producing
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silicosis would be the use of masks and
2
respirators?
3
A. Yes.
4
Q.
And do you also recall that another
5
method of reducing the risk of causing silicosis
6
would be a wet-down operation?
7
A. Yes.
8
Q.
And, indeed, the use of masks and
9
respirators and wet-down procedures is something
10
you studied generally as regards dust, nuisance
11
dust; is that correct?
12
A. Dust in general.
13
Q. Dust in general.That'scorrect?
14
A. Yes.
15
Q.
Do you recall during the year that
16
you were at Harvard any mention whatsoever of
17
asbestos?
18
A. Yes.
19
Q. In what context?
20
A. Being able to look through the
21
microscope and see fibers and different types of
22
asbestos that are more dangerous than others.
23
Q.
And did you understand during your
24
studies at Harvard that prolonged exposure to
25
asbestos could produce a disease called
26
asbestosis?
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A. Prolonged and massive, yes.
2
Q. Do you recall any discussion of
3
what trades or occupations were at risk for
4
developing the disease asbestosis?
5
A. Yes.
6
Q. And what trades were they, as you
7
understood it?
8
A.
Well, I have to reach. Colored
9
cloth, colored textiles, mining, manufacturing.
10
Q. Plant workers?
11
A. Yes.
12
Q. Would it also include the
13
insulators, people who made their -
14
A. Yes.
15
Q.
-- livelihood out of insulating?
16
A.
They zeroed in, as I recall, on the
17
shipyards; they were at the peak right then.
18
Q. And people who were applying
19
asbestos-insulating materials to pipes?
20
A. Yes.
21
Q. And boilers?
22
A. Yes, particularly in enclosed
23
places.
24
Q.
And do you also recall during your
25
year of study at Harvard a discussion of possible
26
diseases resulting from prolonged exposure to
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1
nuisance dust?
2
A.
Yes, but I don't specifically --
3
yes.
4
Q.
And do you recall any discussion
5
during your year at Harvard of the possibility
6
that prolonged exposure to asbestos can increase
7
the risk of developing cancer?
8
A.
I don't recall that at Harvard.
9
Q.
Do you recall that at a later date?
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
When was that?
12
A.
I don't know.
13
Q.
In what context?
14
A.
Well, I don't know how I absorbed
15
it.
16
Q.
Do you recall whether it was an
17
article that you read, or a meeting you attended,
18
a discussion you overheard?
19
A.
I don't know where I picked that
20
up.
21
Q.
After you began your work at
22
Chevron Corporation, were there any industrial
23
hygiene publications that you received on an
*
24
ongoing basis, something published a couple of
25
times or several times a year?
26
A.
Well, the Industrial Hygiene
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1
Journal, and seemed like we got data sheets.
2
Q.
What's a data sheet in that
3
context?
4
A.
Well, they could come from
5
anywhere. We were always writing away for data
6
sheets. We would get them from different
7
companies. We would get them from safety
8
organizations, industrial hygiene.
9
Q.
A data sheet would tell you the
10
composition of a material?
11
A.
And sometimes pretty general, yes.
12
Q.
Do you recall any other
13
occupational or trade journals that you received
14
at Chevron Corporation?
15
A. My mind is a blank. We got quite a
16
few of them. I would recognize them, but they
17
don't come to mind right now.
18
Q.
When you were at Harvard during
19
your year of study there, did you learn how to
20
perform air sampling?
21
A. Yes.
22
Q.
And what did you learn about air
23
sampling?
24
A. We learned the instruments, the
25
equipment, the criteria for evaluating the data;
26
actually did field samples at school.
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1
Q.
Do you recall whether any of that
2
field sampling included measurements of the
3
presence of asbestos?
4
A.
We actually through a microscope
5
measured fibers of asbestos.
6
Q.
Had you collected it somewhere?
7
A. No.
8
Q.
Where did you understand that
9
asbestos originated from?
10
A. Laboratory samples.
11
Q. You did not, then, during your year
12
of study at Harvard do any air sampling that
13
included measurements for asbestos?
14
A. NO.
15
Q.
Did you at any time after that year
16
at Harvard participate in or direct the air
17
sampling that included measurements of asbestos?
18
A. I personally did not.
19
Q. Did you ever direct that other
20
people take air samples of asbestos?
21
A.
I don't recall any case.
22
Q. Was there at any time during any of
23
the refinery operations, to the best of your
24
knowledge, any sandblasting that occurred?
25
A. Yes.
26
Q. Did you ever make any
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1
recommendations as to health and safety
2
precautions to be followed when persons were
3
engaged in sandblasting?
4
A. I personallydidn't.
My staff may
5
have.
6
Q.
Would you agree with me that based
7
on the knowledge that you had by the mid-1960s,
8
you would recommend that persons engaged in
9
sandblasting wear masks or respirators when doing
10
so?
11
A. Yes.
12
Q. And would you alsoagree with me
13
that -- well, strike that.
14
Is it your understanding that there were
15
persons working at, and I will call them Chevron
16
refineries, and by that I mean refineries within
17
the Chevron group of companies, whether it's
18
Eastern Operations or Western Operations, or some
19
other unit, but the question is, did you
20
understand that there were persons working at
21
refineries within the Chevron group of companies
22
in either the 1950s or 1960s whose job title was
23
insulator?
24
A.
I couldn't answer that.
25
Q.
Did you on any occasion prior to
26
1970 visit any of the refineries operated within
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1
the Chevron group of companies where you saw
2
persons either applying or removing insulation
3
materials?
4
MR. JACOBS: That's at any time before
5
1970?
6
MR. HAND: Correct.
7
THE WITNESS: I don't recall, but I could
8
have.
9
MR. HAND: Q.
Can you give us some
10
idea of the frequency with which you would visit
11
any of the refineries?
12
Let's say during the late 1950s or early
13
1960s, was that something unusual or relatively
14
common, and what frequency are we talking about?
15
A. I would visit the Richmondrefinery
16
three or four times a year. El Segundomaybe one
17
or two times a year in the '50s.
18
Q.
And maybe some of the other
19
refineries once in a while?
20
A.
Once in a while. My staff might
21
also visit.
22
Q.
Were you aware by 1965 that
23
asbestos-containing materials were in use for
24
insulation purposes at any of the refineries?
25
A. I would guess so, yes.
26
Q. You believe so?
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1
A. Yes.
2
Q. Do you recall ever providing any
3
guidance to safety engineers at any of the
4
refineries as to when masks and respirators
5
should be used?
6
A.
When I came back from Harvard I
7
visited particularly the two big refineries
8
there, and I was impressed that the safety
9
engineers were well up on asbestos and they had
10
active programs which I was pleased with.
11
Q. And as you understood it, they were
12
aware by the mid-1950s of asbestos hazards and
13
were taking appropriate precautions?
14
A. Yes, they had precautionary
15
equipment and wet-down procedures.
16
Q.
And as you understood it, they were
17
generally following those procedures?
18
A. Yes.
19
Q. Did you ever recommend to refinery
20
personnel that they investigate the suitability
21
of nonasbestos-insulating materials to be used
22
instead of asbestos-insulating materials?
23
A. I personally don't recall advising
24
them on that.
25
Q. Would you agree with me that it is
26
accepted industrial hygiene principle to
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1
substitute nonhazardous materials for hazardous
2
materials to the extent practicable?
3
A. Yes.
4
Q. Are youawarewhether
5
asbestos-containing spray acoustical material was
6
ever applied at any of the refineries?
7
A. No.
8
Q. You were never consulted as to the
9
desirability of applying spray acoustical
10
material, were you?
11
MR. JACOBS: To what?
12
THE WITNESS: No.
13
MR. HAND: Q.
Let's say the isomax
14
unit?
15
A. No.
16
Q. Is it also anaccepted principle of
17
industrial hygiene to provide the workers with
18
information as to where hazardous materials are
19
present so that they may take proper precautions?
20
A . Yes.
21
Q. So to theextent thatpersons are
22
engaged in removing asbestos-containing materials
23
in the 1960s, you would encourage that they be
24
told that those materials contained asbestos if
25
it is known?
26
A. Yes.
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1
Q.
And if one had some uncertainty as
2
to whether material contained asbestos or not in
3
the 1960s, in general, one could request data
4
sheets from the manufacturers; is that correct?
5
A. Yes.
6
Q. Do you have any understanding as to
7
when air sampling for any purpose was ever done
8
prior to 1970 at any of the refineries within the
9
Chevron group of companies?
10
A. Would you restate it, please.
11
Q. Sure. Do you have any
12
understanding as to whether air sampling was ever
13
done for any purpose prior to 1970 at any of the
14
refineries within the Chevron group of companies?
15
A. Oh, yes.
16
Q. For what purpose was air sampling
17
done?
18
A.
Off the top of my head I couldn't
19
tell you, but we did it.
20
Q. Do you know whetherthat air
21
sampling was done for -- strike that.
22
Do have any understanding as to whether
23
any of the air sampling was done to measure the
24
level of airborne dust of any sort?
25
A.
I would say yes.
26
Q.
Do you know whether the results of
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1
any of that air sampling done prior to 1970 was
2
reported to the Industrial Hygiene Section of the
3
Corporate Safety Division of Chevron Corporation?
4
A. Yes.
5
Q. When you obtained your masters
6
degree in industrial hygiene from Harvard, did
7
you understand that TLVs had been established for
8
asbestos?
9
MR. JACOBS: By whom?
10
MR. HAND: By anyone.
11
THE WITNESS: I am getting confused
12
because I don't know whether TLVs were invoked at
13
that time.
t
14
MR. HAND: Q. That's what I am asking.
15
A. I don't remember.
16
Q. Did you understand that -
17
(Counsel and witness confer.)
18
MR. HAND: Q.
-- threshold limit
19
values came to be in vogue for asbestos by the
20
early 1960s?
21
A. I don't know.
22
Q. As an industrial hygienist at
23
Chevron Corporation, did you strive to be
24
informed as to the existence of threshold limit
25
values as to any materials that might be present?
26
A. Yes.
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1
Q.
Within the Chevron companies?
2
A. Yes.
3
Q. Do you know whetherairsampling
4
was ever done at any of the refineries within the
5
Chevron group of companies where the results for
6
asbestos were in excess of five fibers per cubic
7
centimeter?
8
A. I don't recall any.
9
Q. Do yourecall whether air sampling
10
was ever done at any of the refineries within the
11
Chevron group of companies where the results of
12
that air sampling for asbestos exceeded
13
applicable OSHA standards?
14
A.
I don't recall any.
15
Q.
As the head of industrial hygiene
16
for Chevron Corporation, do you have any opinion
17
as to whether there were any operations at any of
18
the refineries that were likely, at least on
19
occasion, to generate airborne asbestos in excess
20
of five fibers per cc?
21
A.
I don't recall any.
22
Q.
And I apologize if I go over
23
something that you may have touched on just a few
24
moments ago.
25
MR. JACOBS: James, let me just ask you,
26
when you talk about five fibers per cc, we're
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1
talking about an eight-hour time-weighted
2
average, aren't we?
3
MR. HAND: Whatever. Whatever time
4
period, whether you're talking maximum
5
exposure -
6
Q.
You were not making any such
7
distinction in your mind, were you, Mr. Spence?
8
A. No.
9
Q. What I was going to apologize for
10
is I don't know if I touched on this quite this
11
way before.
12
Did you ever recommend that air sampling
13
be done at any of the Chevron refineries to
14
determine the levels of asbestos present in the
15
air?
16
A. No.
17
Q.
Do you know whether any of the
18
refineries ever received any literature from the
19
API as regards asbestos controls?
20
A.
I can't say for sure. They could
21
have.
22
Q.
You just don't know one way or the
23
other?
24
A.
No. I was not privy to what they
25
received.
26
Q.
Do you recall Chevron Corporation
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issued a material data sheet as regards asbestos
2
at any time prior to 1970?
3
A.
Not specifically.
4
Q.
As an industrial hygienist, would
5
you agree with me that applying
6
asbestos-containing material in a spray form is
7
likely to produce a higher level of airborne
8
asbestos in that general proximity than applying
9
it in a block form?
10
A.
I have no data in which to evaluate
11
that.
12
Q.
Did you ever become aware that
13
certain brands of asbestos pipeinsulation
14
contained higher percentages of asbestos than
15
others?
16
A.
I have no knowledge of that.
17
Q.
As we sit here today, would you
18
have any opinion as to whether persons who are
19
mixing water with an asbestos-containing cement
20
material in order to apply it to elbows or bends
21
in pipes should wear a mask or a respirator
22
because of possible health hazards from that
23
activity?
24
MR. JACOBS: I 'll object to the question
25
as being an incomplete hypothetical.
26
MR. HAND: Q. You may go ahead.
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A.
Well, any time they have good
2
ventilation it would be advisable still to wear
3
protective equipment.
4
Q.
And would your opinion be the same
5
for those persons who are engaged in removal of
6
asbestos-containing pipe and block insulation
7
from vessels and columns?
8
MR. JACOBS: Same objection.
9
THE WITNESS: Same. You wear protective
10
equipment and you also use water spray to knock
11
down the dust, keep it to a minimum.
12
MR. HAND: Q.
Did you ever participate
13
in any discussion of whether or not
14
asbestos-containing materials no longer should be
15
used at the refineries?
16
A.
No.
17
Q. Did you everparticipate in any
18
discussion of how to monitor refinery activities
19
to make sure that the levels of asbestos in the
20
air level at the refineries did not exceed OSHA
21
standards?
22
A.
No.
23
Q.
Mr. Spence, do you everrecall
24
seeing a document entitled, and I am only giving
25
you the first page of it, "Dust Producing
26
Operations in the Production of Petroleum
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Products and Associated Activities"?
2
A.
I don't recall it. No, I don't
3
recall it.
4
Q.
Let me show you another front page
5
of a document. This is a document entitled, "A
6
Study of Dust Control Methods in an Asbestos
7
fabricating Plant."
8
Do you recall ever seeing this document
9
before?
10
A. NO.
11
Q.
Let me show you another one I think
12
you will recall.
13
A . Okay.
14
Q. This one is a memorandum that
15
appears to be addressed to you.
16
A. Stan Dryden worked for me, yeah.
17
Q. I'm sorry. This is from Stan
18
Dryden?
19
A. Yes.
20
Q.
This is a July 26, 1972 memorandum,
21
and at the top you have a note in it addressed to
22
what looks like the initials DHB.
23
A. That's corporate safety engineer.
24
Q. Corporate safety engineer. What
25
is --
26
A. I worked for him.
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1
Q.
So in 1972 the structure would be
2
you were still head of Industrial Hygiene
3
Section?
4
A. Yes.
5
Q. But above you at the Corporate
6
Safety Division level would be the corporate
7
safety engineer; is that right?
8
A.
Yes.
9
Q.
Well, that's something we didn't
10
talk about actually. Let's go back to 1955. We
11
have these three sections within the Corporate
12
Safety Division?
13
A. Right.
14
Q. How was the Corporate Safety
15
Division staffed in 19 -
16
A.
There was a manager of safety and I
17
reported to him; my section reported to him.
18
Q. What were the other professional
19
positions, as best you can recall them, within
20
the Corporate Safety Division?
21
A. There was Corporate Safety and
22
Worker's Compensation.
23
Q.
And then in 1972 was there still a
24
manager of safety?
25
A. Yes, still the same organization.
26
Q. But you just referred to that same
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individual a moment ago as the corporate safety
2
engineer.
3
A. The manager of safety.
4
Q. It's all the same?
5
A. Yes, still the same person.
6
Q. Who was that manager for the
7
corporation of safety?
8
A. At what time?
9
Q. Let's take 1955.
10
A.
Mike -- no. Donovan, but he died
11
within a few months, so it would have been Mike
12
Lovejoy.
13
Q.
And who was it in 1972? It was
14
DHB?
15
A. Dan Barber.
16
Q. Would you agree with me based on
17
your knowledge of industrial hygiene by the early
18
1960s that those persons with substantial
19
exposure to asbestos should either wear
20
disposable clothing or at least clothing that
21
they would not take home with them?
22
MR. JACOBS: What time period are we
23
talking about now?
24
MR. HAND: By the mid-1960s.
25
THE WITNESS: I don't know. I wasn't in
26
that close contact with the problem.
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MR. HAND: Q. Was that a principle of
2
industrial hygiene that you were familiar with by
3
the 1960s, that those persons who come into
4
contact with hazardous materials should in
5
general try to avoid taking those materials home
6
with them; that is, they should either have
7
special work clothing that is disposable or at
8
least left behind at the work site?
9
MR. JACOBS: 1*11 -
10
THE WITNESS: I can't advise.
11
MR. JACOBS: Let me object to the
12
question first. The question is vague with
13
respect to "hazardous materials."
14
MR. HAND: Q.
You may go ahead.
15
A.
I can't answer that because it
16
depends on the material and what the hazard is,
17
degree of hazard, and the chance for contact.
18
Q.
Would you agree with me that by the
19
mid-1960s, as a prudent industrial hygienist, you
20
would recommend that asbestos-insulating
21
materials being removed from pipes and vessels
22
and columns should be discarded in sealed
23
containers?
24
A.
I don't -- I can't give you an
25
answer to that. I don't know.
26
Q.
You don't have enough information?
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A.
Yeah, I don't know. Depends on
2
how -- no, there are too many parameters. I
3
can't give you an answer.
4
Q.
In order to have more information
5
to be able to give industrial hygiene
6
recommendations, would you recommend that air
7
sampling be done to determine the amount of
8
asbestos present in the air from such activities?
9
A.
If it seemed to indicate it in a
10
specific situation that it could be a problem.
11
We relied heavily on the safety engineer's
12
opinion as to the field situation.
13
Q.
Do you recall providing those
14
safety engineers with any education, any
15
information, as to possible hazards involved with
16
asbestos materials?
17
A. They already had that information.
18
Q. And they received that from what
19
sources?
20
A. From --
21
MR. JACOBS: Asked and answered.
22
THE WITNESS: From safety -- what is it?
23
The National Safety, what do you call it,
24
Counsel.
25
They also had API committees on safety
26
which they dealt with all these materials, too.
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MR. HAND: Q.
Well, that would be a
2
committee separate and apart from the Medical
3
Advisory Committee and the subcommittees?
4
/A. Yes.
5
Q.
So there was also some safety
6
committee within the API?
7
A. Yes.
8
Q. Do you recall the name of that
9
committee?
10
A. I would just guess it's Safety
11
Committee.
12
Q.
Did you ever go to any meetings of
13
the Safety Committee or any subcommittees of the
14
Safety Committee?
15
A.
Not that I recall. I may have been
16
invited once to talk on noise, but I am not sure
17
of that.
18
Q. As regards noise, did you ever
19
recommend that acoustical insulation materials be
20
used at the refineries to reduce noise hazards?
21
MR. JACOBS: I'll object to the term
22
"acoustical insulation materials" as vague and
23
ambiguous.
24
MR. HAND: Q.
You may go ahead.
25
A.
I do not recall recommending any
26
asbestos-containing materials be used for
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acoustical control.
2
Q.
So it's also safe to say, and I
3
think we had addressed this earlier, that you
4
were not aware of the use of any
5
asbestos-containing acoustical-containing
6
materials at the refineries; is that correct?
7
MR. JACOBS: Asked and answered.
8
THE WITNESS: No. Pardon?
9
MR. JACOBS: Asked and answered. He
10
already asked you, and you already answered that.
11
MR. HAND: Q.
As regards the other
12
question, so that we can pin this down just a
13
little bit more, did you ever recommend that
14
acoustical insulation materials -
15
A. Yes.
16
Q. - - b e used at any of the
17
refineries?
18
A. Yes.
19
Q. And as part of those
20
recommendations, do you recall specifically
21
recommending that asbestos materials not be used
22
for acoustical purposes?
23
A. I don't recall. Normally I would
24
recommend things like fiberglass.
25
Q.
Do you recall whether fiberglass
26
could be sprayed?
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A. No.
2
Q. Would youagree with methat as a
3
principle of industrial hygiene, employees of
4
independent contractors who do work at the
5
refineries and who may come into contact with
6
hazardous materials should be told where those
7
materials are present?
8
A. Yes.
9
Q. Was it yourunderstanding -
10
(Counsel and witness confer.)
11
MR. HAND: Q.
What I was about to ask
12
was, was it your understanding that by 1965 that
13
the respirators with filters were generally more
14
effective in reducing the amount of dust inhaled
15
than disposable so-called paper masks?
16
MR. JACOBS: Object to the question in
17
that your description of the respirators is
18
vague.
19
MR. HAND: Q.
Go ahead.
20
A.
I have no time frame with which to
21
evaluate the effectiveness of the respirator
22
protection.
23
Q.
Did you ever participate in or make
24
recommendations as regards the efficacy of
25
various types of respiratory protection?
26
A.
I personally have not.
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Q.
Did you ever attempt to find out
2
what levels of airborne asbestos were present at
3
any of the refineries?
4
A.
I personally made no studies
5
either.
6
Q.
And did you ever recommend that
7
each of the refineries make such a study?
8
A. No.
9
Q.
Do you have any idea or any
10
understanding as to whether each of the
11
refineries ever did make such a study?
12
A. No.
13
(Counsel and witness confer.)
14
MR. HAND: Q.
Did you ever receive
15
from any of the other oil companies, other than
16
through the API, any industrial hygiene
17
information?
18
A. Yes.
19
Q. Justin a very generalsense, what
20
was the nature of that information that you
21
recall?
22
A. WhenI got out ofHarvard Ivisited
23
Exxon and Mobile -- Mobile or a couple of them,
24
and they already had industrial hygienists; so
25
they filled me in on what they had found in
26
general would be problem areas that I would be
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Interested in.
2
Q.
Was Exxon generally regarded by the
3
late 1950s as the leader in industrial hygiene
4
among the oil companies?
5
A. Yes.
6
Q. You must have met James Hammond?
7
A. Oh, yes.
8
Q. Before you became an industrial
9
hygienist at Chevron, was there anyone present at
10
Chevron that you understood was providing
11
industrial hygiene information for the
12
refineries?
13
A.
The safety engineers were keeping
14
up, to a certain extent, in industrial hygiene
15
problems.
16
Q. The safety engineers at the
17
individual refineries?
18
A.
Yes, at Chevron Chemical. They're
19
the ones that put pressure on the corporation to
20
set somebody up to help them technically.
21
Q.
Do you have any understanding as to
22
whether these plant safety engineers by the mid-
23
and late 1950s generally had any formal training
24
in industrial hygiene?
25
A.
I don't know. They would probably
26
get some training through API at maybe their
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general meetings on industrial hygiene.
2
Q. That would be trainingthrough
3
these Safety Committee meetings?
4
A. Possibly.
5
Q.
Any other training through the API?
6
A. Not that I know of.
7
MR. JACOBS: What time period are we
8
talking about, James?
9
MR. HAND: In the 1950s?
10
THE WITNESS: Early '50s.
11
(Counsel and witness confer.)
12
MR. HAND: Q.
Do you recall -
13
A. Yeah, I don't -- I think the
14
discipline really in the petroleum industry was
15
just emerging '50, '55.
16
Q.
What's the nature of the training
17
the API provided in health and safety to safety
18
engineers during the 1960s, as best you
19
understand it? Only through the safety committee
20
meetings?
21
A.
I don't -- I really don't know.
22
THE WITNESS: Is it conceivable we can
23
have a five-minute break?
24
MR. HAND: Yes. And I think we'll be
25
ready to finish soon.
26
(Recess taken.)
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MR. HAND: Q.
Let's pick up again.
2
When you first began your work, Mr. Spence, at
3
Chevron, was there a medical director there?
4
A. Yes.
5
Q.
I hope I didn't ask this before.
6
Who was that medical director?
7
A. Lee Curtis.
8
Q. And you understood that Mr. Curtis
9
was a medical doctor?
10
A. Oh, yes.
11
Q. And all subsequent medical
12
directors you understood were medical doctors?
13
A. Yes.
14
Q.
Do you have any opinion as to
15
whether they would have received publications,
16
the publication entitled, "American Medical
17
Association Journal"?
18
A. Pardon me?
19
MR. JACOBS: The AMA Journal?
20
MR. HAND: Yes.
21
Q.
Do you have any understanding as to
22
whether those persons as medical doctors would
23
have received the AMA Journal?
24
MR. JACOBS: Objection, calls for
25
speculation.
26
THE WITNESS: I would just have to
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speculate that they got it, but I didn't see it.
2
MR. HAND: Q.
That's fine.
3
In terms of some of the long-time
4
industrial hygienists at other oil companies,
5
there was a fellow at Phillips named Lucian?
6
A. Lucian Renes.
7
Q.
Who was an industrial hygienist?
8
A. Yes.
9
Q. Do you recall who was a long-time
10
industrial hygienist at Shell?
11
A.
Charlie Hine is an MT. He really
12
did that initially. It was a year later that
13
they got an industrial hygienist.
14
Q. Shell did not establish an
15
Industrial Hygiene Department as early as
16
Phillips and Chevron; is that correct?
17
A. That's my understanding.
18
Q. Besides James Hammond, were there
19
other long-time industrial hygienists at Exxon
20
that you dealt with?
21
A. Nathan Van Hendricks was the
22
corporate head.
23
Q. He was the corporate what?
24
A. Corporate head industrial
25
hygienist.
26
Q.
Do you know whether Mr. Van
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Hendricks is still alive?
2
A.
Best of my knowledge he is. I
3
think he lives in Georgia.
4
Q. Retired from Exxon?
5
A. Oh, yes.
6
Q. Did you ever have anydealings with
7
anyone in industrial hygiene from Tosco?
8
A.
I don't recall his name. He wasn't
9
in the early years.
10
Q.
Which other oil companies had
11
industrial hygienists back in the '50s or early
12
'60s?
13
A. Bill Rheinhart who was SOCONY.
14
SOCONY merged with Mobile. Art Pabst was Mobile.
15
Q. How about Texaco?
16
A.
I knew that was coming. I could
17
see his face. Excuse me. Don't write all that
18
down. I don't recall.
19
Q.
Can you recall the names of any of
20
the industrial hygienists at any of the other oil
21
companies, other than the ones we have just
22
mentioned, in the '50s or early '60s?
23
A. No.
24
Q. After you obtained your masters
25
degree from Harvard, did you ever attend any
26
meetings of any sort where asbestos was
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discussed, any professional meetings?
2
A.
I don't recall. I could have, but
3
I don't recall them.
4
Q.
Give me just a moment, I may be
5
finished.
6
MR. HAND: Does anybody else have any
7
questions? If somebody wants to ask a few before
8
I finish, that's fine.
9
10
EXAMINATION
11
BY MR. BEALE: Q.
I am Robert Beale.
12
I have a couple of names. There is some
13
names you said. There was Bill Rheinhart at
14
Mobile?
15
A. No. NO.
16
Q. What did you say? You went through
17
some names real fast.
18
A.
Did I say Bill Rheinhart?
19
MR. HAND: At SOCONY.
20
THE WITNESS: That's wrong. Bill
21
Rheinhart worked for me. Bill was at Harvard
22
with me.
23
I'm sorry, I can't remember his last
24
name, but Bill Rheinhart is wrong. Thank you for
25
bringing that up.
26
Q.
He worked for you at Chevron.
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And then you mentioned an Art Pabst?
2
A. Pabst, P-a-b-s-t.
3
Q. Like the beer people?
4
A. I guess so.
5
Q. And he worked at
where?
6
A. He was Mobile.
7
Q.
So then at Phillips you said Lucian
8
Renes?
9
A. Lucian Renes.R-e-n-e-s, I think.
10
Q. And at Shell?
11
A. Charlie Hine. Dr. Charlie Hine.
12
Q. How do you spell his name?
13
A. H-i-n-e.
14
Q. Just trying to get the names.
15
Thanks.
16
MR. JACOBS: James?
17
18
FURTHER EXAMINATION
19
BY MR. HAND: Q.
Were you aware, Mr.
20
Spence, that at times in the past Chevron made
21
some products that contained asbestos in them?
22
A. I think -- yes.
23
Q. Were you ever consulted with
24
respect to what precautions should be taken when
25
handling the asbestos that would go into those
26
products?
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A.
Specifically, I don't recall it;
2
however, 1 would expect we would have had
3
somebody looking at it, asbestos into asphalt.
4
Q.
And you don't recall what
5
precautions were taken to minimize the risk of
6
adverse health consequences for those persons
7
working with the asbestos?
8
A. I wasn't involved.
9
Q. You similarly were not involved in
10
the decision to cease manufacturing
11
asbestos-containing products, were you?
12
A.
I would have no authority to do
13
that.
14
Q.
Were you consulted at all?
15
A. I don't recall.
16
Q. Do you recall any discussionswith
17
industrial hygienists from other oil companies as
18
regards whether or not there were health hazards
19
in refinery operations from any of the materials
20
being used?
21
MR. JACOBS: Wait a second.
22
MR. HAND: Q.
In other words, for
23
instance, did you -
24
A.
Pardon me just a minute.
25
MR. JACOBS: Let me object to the
26
question as being ridiculously overbroad,
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terribly vague, wonderfully ambiguous and
2
marvelously obscene.
3
Can you answer the question?
4
THE WITNESS: I didn't even hear it
5
because my mind was going back to Texaco. Alan
6
Duley. When you get older there is always a lag.
7
MR. HAND: Q.
Well said. For some of
8
us younger ones there is often a lag also.
9
A.
Wait until you get down to my age
10
and see how long your lag is.
11
Q.
Well, the question was, in effect,
12
do you ever recall discussing with someone like
13
Mr. Duly, 'Do we have a problem with such and
14
such a chemical? We use it in our refinery
15
operations, do we have a problem or do we not
16
have a problem? And if we do have a problem,
17
what are we going to do about it?'
18
A.
We always do that. That's the
19
reason we get together to try and help each
20
other.
21
Q. With the API?
22
A. Yes.
23
Q. And do you recall meetings with any
24
of the other industrial hygienists outside the
25
API?
26
A. Yes.
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Q. Call them up on the telephone?
2
A. Yes.
3
MR. HAND: Thanks, Mr. Spence. I have
4
nothing further.
5
(Deposition concluded at approximately
6
5:30 p.m.)
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
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1
REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
2
STATE OF CALIFORNIA )
3
COUNTY OF SONOMA
)
4
I,
CYNTHIA MANNING, a Certified Shorthand
5
Reporter in and for the State of California, do
6
hereby certify:
7
That JOHN A. SPENCE, witness in the foregoing
8
deposition was by me first duly sworn to testify to
9
the truth in the within-entitled cause;
10
That said deposition was reported at the time
11
and place therein stated by me, CSR No. 7645, and
12
thereafter transcribed under my direction; after
13
which, the witness was afforded the opportunity to
14
read, correct and sign the deposition;
15
That if unsigned by the witness, the witness
16
shall not have availed himself of the opportunity to
17
sign, or the signature has been waived.
18
I further certify that I am not interested in
19
the outcome of said action, nor connected with, nor
20
related to any of the parties in said action, or to
21
their respective counsel.
22
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my
23
hand t h i s _______ day o f _______________, 1991.
24
25
26
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DECLARATION OF WITNESS
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I, JOHN A. SPENCE, hereby declare that I have
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read the foregoing testimony on Pages 1 to 141
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inclusive, and the same is a true and correct
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transcript of my said testimony, except as I have
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corrected any answer in ink, initialed such
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correction, and stated on the margin my reason for
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making same.
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1. ( ) The Deponent failed to appear to read,
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correct, or sign his/her deposition.
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2. ( ) The Deponent refused to read,, review,
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or sign his/her deposition for the
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following reason(s):
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3. ( ) The Deponent approved his deposition
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by letter (with) or (without)
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corrections, attached hereto and made
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a part of this deposition herein.
(800) 547-4441
CalN orth Reporting Service
(707) 579-4500