Document 5bdgyo9D7VgMOmqGvRE8m0eyD

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF MILWAUKEE COUNTY STATE OF WISCONSIN STROH DIE CASTING COMPANY- vs . Plaintiff, MONSANTO COMPANY, Defendant. ) ) ) Case No. 639887 ) j. ) ) DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGF Taken on behalf of the Plaintiff April 4th and 5th, 1991 ^Perru 'SJx&poriinq, C^Jnc. erry. O' Reporting, ofietwlype SJ^eporiers 8l8 (Qhve Q^ireet oJuite 4&2 oft. aJSovus. ^Yyiissourt 631OI (314) 621-47QO S.^R.of. SO) Qflo. 43 - f283803 WATER PCB-SD0000052373 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF MILWAUKEE COUNTY STATE OF WISCONSIN STROH DTE CASTING COMPANY, vs. Plaintiff, MONSANTO COMPANY, Defendant. ) ) ) ) ) Case No. 639887 ) ) ) ) DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, produced., sworn, and examined on behalf of the Plaintiff, on April 4th and 5th, 1991, between the hours of eight o'clock in the morning and six o'clock in the evening of that day, at the law offices of Caruthers, Herzog, Crebs and McGhee, in the City of St. Louis, State of Missouri, before NTCKI J. MADTSON, a Professional Reporter and a Notary Public within and for the State of Missouri. APPEARANCES: The Plaintiff was represented by counsel, Mr. Donald H. Carlson and counsel, Mr. John R. Pendergast of the law firm of Riordan, Crivello, Carlson, Mentkowski & Steeves, 701 N. Plankinton Avenue, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. 53203. The Defendant was represented by counsel, Mr. Andrew R. Running of the law firm of Kirkland Ellis, 200 East Randolph Drive, Chicago, Illinois 60601. WATER PCB-SD0000052374 INDEX OF DEPOSITION EXHIBITS PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Page Diagram made by Mr. Papageorge 10 Letter to W. B. Papageorge from H. Stein November 4, 1975 12 Memo to E. Wheeler from W. R. Richard March 6, 1969 103 Copy of Pydraul F-9 label 109 Rubber Age Article - August 1943 110 Copy of Pydraul F-9 label 110 Copy of Pydraul 312 label 110 Copy of Pydraul 312a label 111 Copy of Pydraul Fire Resistant Brochure 120 Letter from D. Wood to G. Buchanan December 1, 1966 128 Letter from H. Strand to D. Wood November 28, 1966 128 Letter from 0. Fancher to D. Gordan January 14, 1972 142 Memo from W. R. Richard to W. A. Kuhn December 30, 1968 147 Minutes from Ad Hoc Committee Meeting 161 Executive Summary - October 29, 1969 175 Letter from C. Paton to W. R. Richard June 18, 1968 188 June Summary of PCB Environmental Problem from W. P. Papageorge to H. S. Bergen and J. E. Springgate - June 30, 1970 191 WATER PCB-SD0000052375 Plaintiff's Exhibit 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 Memo from P. L. Wright to G. Roush July 15, 1977 Page 193 Monsanto Sales Form Sales and Gross Profit Summary from A. J. Koenig to W. R. Corey 194 198 May Summary of PCS Environmental Problem from W. Papageorge to J. Bergen and J. Springgate - May 27, 1970 201. Industrial Hydraulic Fluids Plan 202 Inerteen and Environmental Contamination Statement - September 1968 207 Outline of PCB Environmental Pollution Abatement Plan - November 10, 1969 216 PCB label 245 Presentation by Mr. Wheeler 249 Memo from D. A. Olson to H. S. Bergen December 11, 1969 251 Presentation on Pydraul Fluids 252 Note to Howard from NTJ 260 Pollution letter from N. T. Johnson February 16, 1970 266 Memo from R. E. Kelly to W. B. Papageorge 282 March 30, 1970 Letter from J. T. Garrett to S. Facini August 29, 1960 297 Presentation Outline for PCB Problem 284 Management Plan from W. B. Papageorge April 7, 1970 286 PCB Waste Control & Disposal Draft August 31, 1970 295 WATER PCB-SD0000052376 Plaintiff's Exhibit 36 37 38 39 40 42 Letter from H. Bergen to W. Papageorge October 19, 1970 Page 300 Industrial Hydraulic Fluids Transition Plan 304 Pydraul Reformulation Letter to Customers 309 January 25, 1971 Status Report of PCBs 309 Memo from C. L. Bradford & N. T. Johnson to T. L. Gossage - November 17, 1971 310 Research Report February 12, 1971 314 WATER PCB-SD0000052377 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 6 1 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED by and 2 between Counsel for the Plaintiff and Counsel for the 3 Defendant that this deposition may be taken in shorthand 4 by NICKI J. MADISON, a Professional Reporter and Notary 5 Public, and afterwards transcribed into typewriting. The 6 signature of the Witness was waived by the agreement of 7 Counsel and consent of the Witness. 8 9 10 o-O-o 11 12 13 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, 14 15 of lawful age, being produced, sworn, and examined on the 16 part of the Plaintiff, deposes and says: 17 MR. RUNNING: Before we begin, I'd just like 18 to note, we were discussing this before the start of the 19 deposition, Mr. Papageorge had disc surgery in his back 20 late last fall, and its been recommended that he take 21 breaks every 45 minutes and stretch his legs. So without 22 interrupting the deposition, before the questioning, I'd 23 like to try to do that. And with that statement, we are 24 ready to begin. 25 MR. CARLSON: Very good. WATER PCB-SD0000052378 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 7 1 DIRECT EXAMINATION 2 QUESTIONS BY MR. CARLSON: 3 Q. Mr. Papageorge, as you know, I'm Don Carlson 4 from Milwaukee. Mr. Pendergast is here with me. And 5 we'd like to ask you some questions about some matters 6 concerning Monsanto and some of the work you did with the 7 company. You are here pursuant to a subpoena, are you, 8 sir? 9 A. Yes, I am. 10 Q. And counsel from Monsanto made reference to 11 the fact that you recently had back surgery. You don't 12 have to wait for 45 minutes. If you start feeling 13 uncomfortable at any time, you just let me know, and 14 we'll take a break so that you do feel comfortable. If 15 you want to do anything else, if you need a drink of 16 water or anything else for your own personal comfort, 17 just, please, let us know, and we can take a break then, 18 okay? 19 A. I will. Thank you. 20 Q. Is there any chance I can convince you to 21 come up to Milwaukee for the beginning of the trial, is 22 there? 23 MR. RUNNING: That decision has been made, 24 Mr. Carlson. 25 MR. CARLSON: Okay. WATER PCB-SD0000052379 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 8 1 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Hasthatdecision been 2 made by Monsanto counsel and you are just going to follow 3 what they've asked you to do? 4 A. Well., they are also serving as my counsel, 5 so I will abide by their recommendation. 6 Q. They are servingas yourpersonalcounsel? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. How long were you with Monsanto? 9 A. A little over 35 years. 10 Q. And starting with the company in, what, 11 about '51? 12 A. 1951, yes, sir. 13 Q. And during the course of your work with the 14 company, you managed a plant at Coomer? 15 A. No, sir, 16 Q. Where did you manage your plant? 17 A. The plant in Anniston, Alabama. 18 Q. And what kind of products did they make 19 there, sir? 20 A. When you say kind, do you want a broad 21 classification? 22 Q. Yes, that would be fine. 23 A. Well, it was primarily industrial chemicals 24 and pesticides for agriculture. 25 Q. Did they make polychlorinated biphenyls PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052380 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 9 1 there? 2 A. Yes, they did. 3 Q. In 1969, you took a new position with the 4 company, didn't you? 5 A. More correctly, I think you are referring to 6 early 1970. 7 Q. Okay. What position did you take then? 8 A. I was appointed manager of environmental 9 control. 10 Q. And in that capacity, did you have occasion 11 to become familiar with PCB issues? 12 A. Oh, yes, definitely. 13 Q. And at times you acted as aspokesman for 14 the company on PCB issues? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Did you continue to act inthat capacity 17 until your retirement? 18 A. No, sir. 19 Q. How long did you work in that capacity? 20 A. Until February 1st, 1976. 21 Q. You are a chemical engineer by profession? 22 A. Yes , sir. 23 Q. And you have a masters? 24 A. Yes 25 Q. And you've done some work towards your WATER PCB-SD0000052381 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 10 1 doctorate? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. I'd like to have you, if you would, help me 4 in understanding some of the terms that we find ourselves 5 discussing when we talk about PCBs. In the letters PCB, 6 what does the word or the P stand for? 7 A. Poly. 8 O. And the C? 9 A. Chlorinated. 10 Q. And the B? 11 A. Biphenyl. 12 Q. Bi meaning two? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And what is a phenyl? 15 A. It describes a combination of carbon and 16 hydrogen, and the relationships of the carbons form a 17 hexagon at the corners. That is referred to as a phenyl 18 group by the chemist. 19 Q. And so then you have, for biphenyls, two of 20 these hexagons? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Could you diagram for me what a -- 23 schematically, what a biphenyl looks like? 24 A. Yes, I can do that. 25 Q. Okay. Thank you. WATER PCB-SD0000052382 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 11 1 (Witness is drawing a diagram on a yellow sheet of 2 paper.) 3 A. The diagram I have sketched here depicts 4 graphically the relationship of the 12 carbons and the 5 hydrogens associated with them. Altogether they form the 6 chemical called biphenyl. 7 MR. CARLSON: Thank you. I'd like to have 8 the court reporter mark this if we could. Actually, I 9 think we'll save time. We have an exhibit, sticker 10 ourselves, if that's all right. 11 (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit One was marked.) 12 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) I've had marked as 13 Plaintiff's Exhibit Number One, -is that the drawing that 14 you just made for us? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q, And in describing the term PCBs, youtalked 17 about chlorinated. What does that mean? 18 A. That means, chemically, that the hydrogens 19 that I showed on the diagram had been replaced by a 20 chlorine. 21 Q. Okay. Poly meaning then that there is more 22 than one chlorine? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. How many possible chlorines can there be on 25 a biphenyl? WATER PCB-SD0000052383 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 12 1 A. The maximum number would be ten, replacing 2 the ten hydrogens. 3 Q. On this particular drawing, could you, for 4 example, show me a -- molecularly what it would look like 5 if there were three chlorines, for example? 6 MR. RUNNING: Do you want him to strike out 7 the hydrogen atoms? 8 MR. CARLSON: Sure. 9 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) You can just cross out 10 hydrogens and put in chlorines where they may be found. 11 A. Okay. Now, I can show you there is more 12 than one opportunity for chlorine to attach in three 13 different places. ' 14 Q. Because we have ten hydrogens -- 15 A. Because there are ten positions, but any of 16 the hydrogens can be replaced by a chlorine, so an 17 example would be let's take the one hydrogen I crossed 18 here -- 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. -- and replace with a chlorine or it can be 21 down and over here or it can be over here. That would 22 represent a three chlorine type PCB. 23 Q. Thank you. 24 MR. CARLSON: We'll offer Plaintiff's Exhibit 25 Number One into evidence. WATER PCB-SD0000052384 computer Aiaea Transcription oy Ascrioe o 1 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Are there PCBs inwhich 2 all ten of the hydrogens have been replaced by chlorine? 3 A. Did you say are there? 4 Q. Yes. 5 A. Yes, there are. It's called 6 decachlorobiphenyl. 7 Q. And for the folks on the Jury that may have 8 the opportunity to view this, on your diagram, the C 9 stands for carbon? 10 A. Yes. , 11 Q. And the H for hydrogen? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And the Cl for chlorine? 14 A. Yes. ` 15 Q. if you can bear with me just onesecond. 16 (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit Two was marked.) 17 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Mr. Papageorge, I've had 18 marked a number of pages jointly as Plaintiff's Exhibit 19 Number Two, and I think you will see that the first page 20 is a November 4th of 1975 letter to yourself from Harvey 21 Stein, apparently with the Department of Health, 22 Education, and Welfare, and I'd just like to have you 23 familiarize yourself with the document for a moment if 24 you would. 25 A. It's been many years since I've read this. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052385 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 14 1 Q. I can understand that. 2 A. I'd appreciate taking the time -- 3 Q. That's no problem at all. 4 A. -- refreshing my memory. 5 Q. That's no problem at all. Any time 6 ask you to take a look at a document, you take all the 7 time you want so that you are comfortable that you know 8 what is in it. 9 A. Thank you. 10 (There was a break in the deposition for the 11 witness to read the document.) 12 A. I have reviewed the document. - 13 Q.- (By Mr. Carlson) Mr. Papageorge, you've had 14 an opportunity to review the document? 15 A. I have. 16 Q. Do you remember when youreceived it? 17 A. I recall it now, yes. 18 Q. You received that in the normal course of 19 your business? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. If you would be kind enough totake a look 22 at the page entitled Table II, Description of PCB 23 Mixtures. 24 A. Table II. 25 Q. I think it's about the third page from the WATER PCB-SD0000052386 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 15 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 end. A. Q. I have it. Okay. Thank you. On that particular table, there is use of the word Aroclor., A-r-o-c-l-o-r, could you be kind enough to tell us what the word Aroclor means? A. That's Monsanto'strademark used to describe a series of chlorinated industrial chemicals. Q. Does that include PCBs? A. Yes. Q. For example, here it shows Aroclor and there's a 1242 that's referenced? A. I see it. Q. What do the numbers 1, 2, 4, and 2 stand for in that designation? A. The 1-2 stands for the biphenyl product. The 42 is the percent by weight of chlorine present in that chlorinated biphenyl. Q. And then if we run down thatparticular table, we see, for example, that there is reference to monochlorobiphenyls, do you see that? A. I see that. Q. And it says that there is a one at that location -- A. Yes. WATER PCB-SD0000052387 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe io 1 Q. -- for the 1242. What does that mean? 2 A. I'm trying to determine -- oh, that 3 represents the number of the chemicals that are 4 represented by that group. 5 Q. That group being, in this particular case, a 6 biphenyl that just has one chlorine? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. I see. And then going.down that same table, 9 we show that there is dichlorobiphenyl, do we not? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And there is 16 referenced there? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. For trichlorobiphenyls, that seems to be the 14 majority, there's 49 of them at that -- or 49 of them 15 indicated there? 16 MR. RUNNING: Why don't we refer to percents 17 instead of amount. 18 MR. CARLSON: All right. 19 Q. (By Mr. Carlson)Is this in percentages? 20 A. Let me see. Yes. Itis percentage. 21 Q. So that 49 percent of the Aroclor 1242 is 22 made of trichlorobiphenyl? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And we go down to tetrachlorobiphenyls and 25 we have 25 percent; is that correct? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052388 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 17 1 A. That's what this chart shows, yes. 2 Q. And for pentachlorobiphenyls, eight percent? 3 A. That's what it shows. 4 Q. And hexachlorobiphenylsis one percent? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. But it's your understanding that these are 7 approximations? 8 MR. RUNNING: Well, I'll object to 9 foundation. He's just reading off the table the same way 10 you are, Mr. Carlson, but he's giving you his 11 interpretation. I don't think these numbers are in great- 12 dispute. . 13 ` MR. CARLSON: Okay. 14 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Do you have any dispute 15 with the percentages listed for the Aroclor 1242 as 16 listed on table two? 17 A. This could well represent the analytical 18 chemists determination of a particular batch of the 19 material that there is a variation between batches 20 because this is not a refined chemical. It's a 21 commercial and industrial type mixture. 22 Q. I see. 23 A. So there will bevariations. 24 Q. Okay. If we look to the column to the right, 25 of the Aroclor 1242, we have Aroclor 1254; is that WATER PCB-SD0000052389 Computer Aided Transcription oy xscnoe xa 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 , 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 correct? A. That is correct. Q. And again, the 12 meaning that it's a biphenyl? A. Q. Yes. And 54 meaning that its approximate chlorine content is 54 percent? A. That is correct. Q. And then if we look at the composition of the PCBs in the 1254, we find that some of them that are in the 1242 are also in the 1254, do we not? A. That is true in smaller quantities. Q. Smaller quantities for the lower chlorinated? A. Yes, considerably so. Q. Right. And then if we get, for example, to the tetrachlorobiphenyl, tetra meaning what? A. Four chlorines. Q. We have 21 percent of the Aroclor 1254 is tetrachlorobiphenyl, correct? A. That is what it shows. Q. As opposed to the 25 percent in the 1242 mixture? A. That's what it shows, yes. Q. And then the pentachlorobiphenyl is shown to PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052390 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 19 1 be at 48 percent? 2 MR. RUNNING: In the Aroclor 1254? 3 MR. CARLSON: In the Aroclor 1254. 4 A. That's true. 5 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) And in the Aroclor 1242. 6 we found that there was only eight percent? 7 A. In this case, yes. 8 Q. But we do find that we have comparable or 9 some comparable biphenyls in both the 1242 and the 1254, 10 do we not? 11 A. Yes. 12 MR. RUNNING: I'll object to the 13 characterization, comparable. The numbers are there on 14 the table, we don't need to characterize them. 15 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Is that true, sir? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And then if we look at the Aroclor 1260, we 18 find that, first of all, that's 60 percent chlorine? 19 A. That is correct. 20 Q. And it has pentachlorobiphenyls at 12 21 percent, correct? 22 A. That's what's shown on the chart. 23 Q. And 38 percent at hexachloro? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Penta meaning what? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052391 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 20 1 A. Five, 2 Q. And hexa meaning what? 3 A, Six. 4 MR. CARLSON: We'll be offering Exhibit 5 Number Two into evidence. 6 MR. RUNNING: Just for the record, we are 7 reserving our position of all exhibits to the trial. 8 MR. CARLSON: That's fine. If you have any 9 specific objections with regards to foundation of the 10 exhibits that we've referenced to., I would request and 11 expect that you make those objections at this time 12 however. 13 Q. (By Mr.Carlson) In looking at questions 14 surrounding PCBs, I run across the word isomer on 15 occasion. Can you tell me what isomer means? 16 A. It is generally used by the chemist to 17 describe the fact that some chemicals have the same basic 18 structure but the configuration is different in each 19 case. Take, for example, the trichlorobiphenyl we talked 20 about earlier. The three chlorines that are attached to 21 the two biphenyls, to the two phenyl groups, can position 22 themselves in any one of several positions. Each one of 23 those is a isomer of the other. 24 Q. I see. 25 A. Is the way that chemists describe these PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052392 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 21 1 materials. 2 Q. For example, on Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 3 One, if we move one of the chlorines that's on the far 4 right-hand side of the drawing to the far left-hand side, 5 that would be an isomer? 6 A. No, that would be the same. 7 Q. That would be the same. 8 A. That's just a mirror image. If you flip the 9 molecule over and you have the same. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A It would have to go to an entirely different 12 position other than the end molecule. 13 Q. Either one of the top or bottom molecules of 14 the hydrogen carbon group? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. I've also run across the term 17 terphenyl in looking at the PCBs. Can you tell me what 18 terphenyl means? 19 A. Terphenyl is a chemical that consists of 20 three phenyl groups attached to each other instead of the 21 two. 22 Q. Did your company manufacture at onetime 23 hydraulic fluids utilizing terphenyls? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Were they chlorinated? WATER PCB-SD0000052393 to ; Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Were the chlorines in the terphenyls 3 attaching to the hydrogens as they were for the 4 biphenyls? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And did the chlorinated terphenyls that your 7 company manufactured as hydraulic fluids or for hydraulic 8 fluids, did they also contain some biphenyls? 9 A. There was a presence of biphenyls as a 10 contaminant, not as a deliberately manufactured portion. 11 Q. When did your company find out that your 12 terphenyls were contaminated with biphenyls? 13 A. As best I remember, it was about 1975, 14 somewhere in there. 15 Q. Okay.Another word that I find inlooking 16 at PCBs and hydraulic fluids is the word Pydraul. What 17 does the word Pydraul mean? 18 A. Pydraul is Monsanto's trademark that was 19 used for a series of fluids used as industrial hydraulic 20 fluids. 21 Q. Was there at one time a fluid known as 22 Pydraul F-9? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And when didyourcompany first start to 25 manufacture Pydraul F-9 if you recall? WATER PCB-SD0000052394 computer Aided Transcription oy XScribe 23 1 A. Best I can recall is about the middle 1950s. 2 Q. And did the Pydraul F-9s have as a principle 3 component an Aroclor? 4 A. I would characterize it as a component not a 5 principle component. 6 Q. And which Aroclor was a component of the 7 Pydraul F-9? 8 A. As best I recall, it was Aroclor 1248. 9 Q. That would mean that it's 48 percent 10 chlorine? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. The Aroclor 1248, I don't see that on table .3 II that we had referenced before as a part of Exhibit 14 Two, I believe. Do you, by any chance, happen to 15 remember the composition of the different chlorinated 16 biphenyls that made up the Aroclor 1248? 17 A. No, I don't really. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. It's somewhat close to the 1242, as best I 20 recall. 21 Q. Would you expect that there were some common 22 chlorinated biphenyls to the 1248 and the 1254? 23 A. Yes, just like the 1242. 24 Q. And then I have also seen a Pydraul 312 25 mentioned, and can you tell me what Pydraul 312 is? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052395 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 24 1 A. That's another one of the many industrial 2 hydraulic fluids sold by Monsanto. 3 Q. And arePC-Bs a componentof Pydraul 312? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And which of the Monsanto Aroclors was the 6 component of the Pydraul 312? 7 A. Aroclor 1242. 8 Q. Do you recall prior to1970, on any of the 9 labels that Monsanto used for its Pydraul F-9, did the 10 designation PCB or the words polychlorinated biphenyls 11 ever appear? 12 A. There was, as I recall, an early label that 13 referred to chlorinated diphenyls. Bi is another way to 14 express the presence of two phenyl groups. Subsequent 15 labels referred to chlorinated hydrocarbons, which was a 16 designation which was believed by Monsanto to be better 17 understood by the normal industrial customer that was 18 receiving it. 19 Q. The -- strike that. Did you use the word 20 Aroclor on the labels for the Pydraul F-9? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Did you use thewordAroclor on thelabels 23 for the Pydraul 312? 24 A. No. 25 Q. To your knowledge, did yourcompetitors know WATER PCB-SD0000052396 Computer Aided Transcription by XScnbe <4 3 1 what the principle -- strike that. Did your competitors 2 know what one of the components -- strike that. To your 3 knowledge, prior to 1965, did Monsanto's hydraulic fluid 4 competitors know that polychlorinated biphenyls were a 5 component of its hydraulic fluids? 6 A. I don't have any knowledge to answer that. 7 Q. Is it true that your company made a decision 8 not to reference polychlorinated biphenyls on the labels 9 of the F-12 -- I'm sorry, F-9 and 312 so that your 10 competitors wouldn't know that one of the components was 11 the polychlorinated biphenyl? 12 A. That is not true because our competitors had 13 sophisticated laboratories and they could find out within 14 an hour the presence of polychlorinated biphenyls. 15 Q. As of what year? 16 A. Well, from the very beginning of the Pydraul 17 formulation, 1950s on. 18 Q. Down to what detection limits do you think 19 the methodology was available to look at polychlorinated 20 biphenyls in your mixtures? 21 A. At what point in time? 22 Q. As of 1960. 23 A. 1960. The capability of most good 24 laboratories ranged down to the percent level, and these 25 materials were present in tens of percent levels, so it PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER_PCB-SD0000052397 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 26 1 would not have been difficult to defect. 2 Q. Fair. Another word that I run across in 3 looking at PCBs is the word biodegrade. Can you tell me 4 what that means? 5 A. That's an expression normally used to 6 describe the situation where a material exposed to 7 elements in nature is converted from its original 8 identity to some other type of material. 9 Q. Do all the of the different kinds of 10 chlorinated biphenyls biodegrade at the same rate? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Do some of the chlorinated biphenyls, to 13 your knowledge, biodegrade? 14 A. Yes, they do. 15 Q. Which chlorinatedbiphenylsbiodegrade more 16 rapidly than others? 17 A. The lower chlorinated biphenyls degrade more 18 rapidly than the higher chlorinated. 19 Q. Is the resistence to biodegrading of the 20 chlorinated hydrocarbons in the upper levels, is that one 21 of the good features of the product or for the product 22 that Monsanto used them for back in the '50s and '60s? 23 A. No. The fact that they were resistent of 24 biodegradation was not a factor in determining the 25 qualities that were sought for. It just supports WATER PCB-SD0000052398 Computer Aided Transcription by XScrioe 4< 1 previously known information that these materials were 2 chemically stable as well. 3 Q. Chemically stable meaning what? 4 A. They are not affected by exposure to the air 5 or to other chemicals and solvents and detergents that 6 most other industrial chemicals that are available. They 7 are not the type of chemicals that react readily. 8 Q. Do you recall that at one time some 9 Pydraul -- strike that. Do you recall at one time some 10 Aroclor 1242 and I think 48 and 54 was intentionally 11 placed on the ground back in about 1939 to see what would 12 happen to it? 13 A. I recall an experiment that was conducted 14 that was primarily designed to establish the 15 effectiveness of wood preserve -- wood preservative 16 chemicals and some of the mixtures that were used 17 included PCBs as the solvent. I do recall the one test. 18 I don't know of any others personally. 19 Q. Do you have some recollection of in the late 20 1960s or early 1970s, being advised that the chemicals 21 that were used in this 1939 experiment were still present 22 in the environment in the late '60s and early '70s? 23 Q. I had a report that said that and included 24 that the presence of the wood preservatives sterilized 25 the environment in which the PCBs were present to the PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER_PCB-SD0000052399 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 28 1 point where there was no biological activity taking 2 place. There was nothing there to degrade the PC-Bs. 3 Q. Well, some products degrade in air? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. And the air didn't degrade the PCBs? 6 A. No, air won't degrade PCBs. It takes some 7 living creature, bacteria for example. 8 Q. Okay. When you said that the PCBs 9 sterilized the area, what did you mean? 10 MR. RUNNING: No, no, that's no what he 11 said. I object. 12 MR. CARLSON: Okay. 13 A. I said that the wood preservative 14 chemical -15 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Sterilized the air? 16 A. -- destroys all living creatures in that 17 whole in the ground which is really what it's supposed to 18 do to preserve the wood, and it creates an environment19 right in that locality where there is no activity by 20 bacteria or fungus or whatever else might have been 21 present originally to the point where the PCB that's 22 there is not exposed to anything that would destroy it. 23 Q. For example, are PCBs degraded by water - 24 A. No. 25 Q. -- or moisture? WATER PCB-SD0000052400 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 29 1 A. No, unless the water has bacteria in it. 2 Q. Another word that I've run across is 3 biomagnification. Can you tell me what that word means? 4 A. That's used by the biologist who described 5 the situation where a material that's present in the 6 environment and consumed by the the living creatures 7 builds up in these creatures that consume it in their 8 bodies, so to speak, and when they in turn are consumed 9 by a bigger creature, it builds up into bigger creatures' 10 body to the point where the creature at the top of the 11 food change ends up with an amount of that material that 12 is many times greater than what was present at the very 13 beginning. 14 Q. And does the word biocumulate mean the same 15 as biomagnification? 16 A. Roughly so, yes. 17 Q. Can you give me an example that you are 18 aware of today in showing a concentration level perhaps 19 at a very low level of PCBs in the environment where it 20 has been biomagnified to the point that in some 21 creatures, the concentrations are substantially higher? 22 A. I don't recall specifics, but I can give you 23 an example. There are many studies that were made back 24 in the '70s, demonstrating where a small amount of 25 material is in the water, let's say -- WATER_PCB-SD0000052401 computer hiaea Transcription uy /\ootxoc c/ 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. -- and that is consumed by algae and other 3 small creatures in the water. They in turn are consumed 4 bythe small fish, and then the bigger fish eat the small 5 fish so that by the time the larger fish is analyzed, the 6 chemist finds that that material which was very dilute in 7 the water in the first place is many many times greater 8 in the tissue of that large fish. 9 Q. Can you give me some rough idea of what 10 kinds of increase and consentrations have been seen? 11 A. Well, of course,this depends on the 12 chemical study. It's different from mercury and cadmium 13 and selenium and PCBs. 14 Q. Okay. Well, let's talk about PCBs'. 15 A. PCBs. I have heard numbers that are in the 16 tens of thousands, 70,000 is a number that comes to mind 17 in one study. In other words, the fish tissue was 18 analyzed and they found PCBs in it. And the amount there 19 is 70,000 times the quantity found in the water in which 20 this fish was presumed to have existed. 21 Q. To your recollection, has it been found that 22 birds that eat fish also biocumulate PCBs? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And does the biomagnification that you've 25 described for me early continue on when birds eat the PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052402 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 31 1 fish? 2 A. True. That's another step in the food 3 chain, yes. 4 Q. And then if humans eat birds that have eaten 5 PCBs to the bio -- does the concept of biomagnification 6 continue so that it would be a continuing buildup in a 7 human that had a steady diet of these contaminated foods? 8 A. Well, that's the key word, steady diet, so 9 that the input remains almost constant. Eventually, yes, 10 you will find that buildup in a human being. 11 Q. Another word that I see cropping up on 12 occasion with regards to PCBs is the word furans. Can 13 you tell me what a furan is? 14 A. Furans. Well, the word furans applies to a 15 given family of chemicals which consist of carbon and 16 hydrogen just like the biphenyls, and they have, in 17 addition, to carbon and hydrogen, they have oxygen. 18 There is an oxygen involved. That is the proper use of 19 the word furans, the carbon, hydrogen, oxygen chemical. 20 Q. Do furans, to your knowledge, appear 21 naturally in the environment? 22 A. I personally don't know. I have not heard 23 that they have. 24 Q. Do PCBs or polychlorinated biphenyls appear 25 in the environment naturally? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER_PCB-SD0000052403 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 32 1 A. I, again, do not know. I've never heard of 2 any report that supported that. 3 Q. A phrase that I've run across also is a 4 phrase acute toxicity. Can you tell me what that means? 5 A. That describes the results of tests designed 6 to indicate the amount of material fed to a test animal 7 that would lead to the death of half of the group of 8 animals being tested. 9 Q. Is the phrase acute toxicity different than 10 the concept of long term effects? 11 A. Oh, yes, definitely. 12 Q. What's the difference, conceptually? 13 A. Well, the acute toxicity is one where the 14 results that are noted are very dramatic, and, as I said, 15 the creature that's being exposed dies from that 16 exposure. 17 Q. Okay. What does long term effects then 18 mean? 19 A. Long term tries to describe effects to the 20 test animal that are noted after of the animal is exposed 21 to a steady level of that chemical for it's -- the best 22 approach is the one where it's fed throughout its entire 23 life and the researcher, the person conducting this 24 study, attempts to determine if there is anything unusual 25 happening to that test animal. WATER PCB-SD0000052404 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 33 1 Q. Do long term effects transcend one 2 generation? 3 MR. RUNNING: Do they always? 4 MR. CARLSON: No, may they. 5 A. I'm not aware of the long term effects that 6 are typically sttidied being the type effects that one 7 would expect in future generations. 8 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Okay. What does the word 9 carcinogen mean? 10 A. It describes a material that is demonstrated 11 to cause cells in a living creature to abnormally 12 reproduce and form what we commonly know as cancer. 13 Q. And what does the word mutagenic mean? 14 A. Mutagenic. Keep in mind I'm not a physician 15 or toxicologist. 16 Q. I understand. 17 A. Mutagenic refers to a material that when fed 18 to the parents, let me call it, of the offspring results 19 in some change in the offspring that was not present in 20 the parents. 21 Q. Okay. I'd like to discuss with you a little 22 bit the concept of PCBs and whether or not they are 23 found, you know, in food, okay, just as a reference. Can 24 you tell me, have PCBs been found in cows milk? 25 A. Yes, they were found. WATER PCB-SD0000052405 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 34 1 Q. And when you were at Monsanto, was that a 2 concern of the company? 3 A, Certainly. 4 Q. Can you tell me, did Monsanto make some 5 effort to determine how PCBs got into cows milk? 6 A. Yes, we did. 7 Q. And can you tell me what the results of your 8 work showed? 9 A. There were two sources identified the 10 presence of PCBs in milk. The first source that was 11 studied determined that cattle that were grazing under 12 power lines, the ground of which had been sprayed with 13 oils to reduce growth, weeds, bushes, trees, and the ' 14 like, were contaminated with PCBs. The cattle then 15 grazing on that grass consumed some PCBs and the PCBs 16 eventually were found in their milk. The other source 17 was the use by some silo construction companies and silo 18 service companies in a coating that was applied to the 19 concrete silo walls to prevent the acids that are 20 generated when the silage forments from eating into the 21 concrete and destroying the silo. That coating 22 eventually chipped off, peeled off, got into the soddage, 23 the soddage was fed to the cattle, and the PCBs was 24 detected in their milk. 25 Q. Did Monsanto discontinue manufacturing the WATER PCB-SD0000052406 computer Arueu i auo>-i .. 1 coatings that were used by these silo service companies 2 and manfacturers? 3 MR. RUNNING: That assumes a fact that's not 4 in evidence that Monsanto did manufacture it in the first 5 place. 6 MR. CARLSON: That's a fair statement. 7 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Monsanto sold PCBs that 8 were used as plasticizers? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. And did Monsanto sell PCBs to companies that 11 used PCBs in manufacturing coatings? 12 A. To some of them, yes. 13 Q. For example, can you tell me one or two of 14 the companies that you sold if to for that purpose, if 15 you recall? 16 A. I know they were the -'ajor paint companies. 17 Q. And at some time did Monsanto recommend that 18 PCBs not be used in coatings that would be used inside 19 silos? 20 A. Definitely, yes. 21 Q. And that was after the PCBs were found in 22 the milk? 23 A. Yes. I don't want to lead the impression 24 Monsanto sold PCBs directly to the silo contractors. 25 Q. Oh, I understand. You sold them to a PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER_PCB-SD0000052407 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 36 1 coating manufacturer? 2 A. No. 3 Q. No? 4 A. No. We soldthem todistributors who then 5 in turn sold them to anyonewho came along and bought it. 6 The distributor may or may not have been known what the 7 eventual use was of these PCBs. It's just like you and I 8 going to the store and getting a can of tomatoes and we 9 don't know where the tomatoes are going to end up. 10 Q. I guess that's aninteresting analogy. 11 Presumably the grower of the tomatoes knows that 12 eventually they are going to be eaten by somebody. Did 13 Monsanto know eventually that some of its PCBs were going 14 to be used in coatings? 15 A. In coatings, yes. 16 Q. Okay. And Monsanto, prior to PCBs being 17 found in cows milk, did not put any restrictions on the 18 kinds of coatings that the PCBs could be used in? 19 A. No, we did not. 20 MR. RUNNING: If you've reached the end of 21 that line of questioning, why don't we take a break, if 22 you have a few more questions. 23 MR. CARLSON: No, no, that's fine. We can 24 take a break at any time. That's fine. 25 MR. RUNNING: Okay. ** *r nnnABmTMP. CtTOXfTr'W WATER_PCB-SD0000052408 Computer Aided Transcription Dy A*crioe 1 (At this time, there was a ten minute break in the 2 deposition.) 3 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Mr. Papageorge, we've had 4 a chance to have a break, and are you feeling -5 comfortable? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. Thank you. 9 Q. When you talked a little bit about how PCBs 10 get into tissue of fish and into birds and into milk, are 11 PCBs or have PCBs been found in animal feed? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. How did it get there? 14 A. Of course, we have to include soddage as an 15 animal feed. 16 Q. Right. 17 A. We talked about -- 18 Q. How they got there. 19 A. -- in the soddage. There are examples of 20 PCBs getting into animal feed where ingredients that went 21 into blending the animal feed had previously been 22 contaminated. 23 Q. Can you give me an example? 24 A. Well, there is one example I recall where 25 stale bakery goods in the original wrappers were crushed PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER_PCB-SD0000052409 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 38 1 and ground and prepared as a component in the animal feed 2 that was finally fed to the animals, and the PCBs were 3 found in some of those feeds and it was, although 4 difficult to demonstrate, it was presumed at the time it 5 came from either the adhesives on the packaging or the 6 printing inks. 7 Q. PCBs being a component of each of those? 8 A. Of those printing inks or adhesives. There 9 was one instant where a fish meal that was to be used in 10 poultry feed was being sterilized using PCBs as a means 11 to get a lot of heat on the fish meal to kill the 12 bacteria. Well, it turns out that this fish meal was 13 contaminated because there was a leak in the system., and 14 the PCB oil got into the fish meal, the fish meal was 15 blended into the poultry feed, and the chickens were 16 contaminated. 17 Q. What happened or what kind of equipment 18 developed the leak? 19 A. This was a heat transfer system. 20 Q. What did they do with the chickens? 21 A. I really don't know. 22 Q. Do you remember if they were slaughtered and 23 disposed of? 24 A. They were slaughtered. I don't know what 25 the final disposal was. WATER PCB-SD0000052410 Computer Aided Transcription by XScnbe 1 Q. Have PCBs been found in human lung tissue? 2 A. Human lung tissue. I have not seen any 3 report to show that. 4 Q. Have PCBs been found in human tissue? 5 A. I have heard allegations that they have 6 been, but I have not seen any official report personally 7 that tells me that. 8 Q. Okay. Have you read any studies on long 9 term neurological effects caused by PCBs in humans? 10 A. I'm not aware of any such study. 11 Q. Are there -- first of all, what is the FDA? 12 A. That's the Food and Drug Administration. 13 Q. And amongst other activities, do you know if 14 the FDA has set a maximum PCB concentrations allowable in 15 different kinds of foods? 16 A. Yes, they have. 17 Q. For example, are you currently aware of the 18 maximum PCB concentrations permitted in milk? 19 A. I don't know how current my information is. 20 When I was involved, it was at five parts per million in 21 the butter fat. 22 Q. What did that convert to in milk? 23 A. Well, whole milk is about four percent 24 butter fat, four or five percent, so if it's five parts 25 per million -- I'd have to have a piece of paper and PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052411 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 40 1 pencil to calculate it, it's quite small in the total 2 milk because it's, as you can see, 95 percent of that 3 milk is PCB free. 4 Q. Have there been any guidelines or advisories 5 issued by any regulatory agencies that you are aware of 6 relative to pregnant women consuming food stuffs that are 7 contaminated with PCBs? 8 A. I'm not aware of any reference specifically 9 to pregnant women and PCBs. 10 Q. Are you aware of any regulatory agencies 11 that have issued any guidelines with regards to maximum 12 concentration levels, for fish, of concentration levels of 13 PCBs? 14 A. The FDA had a level, as I remember. It was 15 in the edible tissue, about five parts per million, and I 16 recall some states along the Great Lakes had advisories 17 as distinguished from regulations -- 18 Q. Right. 19 A. -- in which theyadvised thegeneral public 20 regarding the eating of fish which contained PCBs. I 21 forget exactly what they advised them except to caution 22 them not to over do it. 23 Q. Have therebeen anyregulations from the FDA 24 issued on PCB concentrations allowable in poultry? 25 A. Yes. WATER PCB-SD0000052412 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 41 1 Q. Do you remember what the concentrations 2 were? 3 A. I'm not certain of this number. I think 4 it's something like five parts per million. 5 Q. And how about in meat, that is in beef? 6 A. I don't remember any limit on meat 7 specifically. 8 Q. How about eggs? 9 A. Eggs. There was a limit on eggs. I don't 10 recall the amount. 11 O. We have been discussing to some extent PCBs 12 that get. into fish, and I think you've explained to me 13 one of the ways that PCBs get into fish tissue. Is it, 14 from your reading and understanding of PCBs, possible for 15 fish to take PCBs directly through the gills? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. How does that occur? 18 A. Well, I'm not a fish scientist. I 19 understand that the gills are capable of absorbing 20 materials like PCBs through their fatty cells and then 21 that in turn is moved into the body of the fish and gets 22 distributed. That's my laymen's understanding of what 23 happens. 24 Q. I think from our discussions earlier, you 25 had indicated PCBs aren't soluble in water, are they? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052413 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 42 1 A. They are very very slightly soluble. There 2 is an amount that does dissolve in water. 3 Q. When PCBs get into the fish gills, for 4 example, does that -- how does the PCB -- strike that. 5 Is the PCB there floating around in the water or is it 6 bound to something else in the water? 7 A. If could be both ways. There could be some 8 of the PCB actually dissolved in the water, especially 9 when it's say five parts per billion kinds of 10 concentrations. It is also possible for particulate 11 matter, little grains of sand or whatever exists in the 12 water, to carry with it a little PCB. And as that flows 13 through the gills, it could be captured by the fish's 14 system. 15 Q. Have PCBs been found in many lakes? 16 A. Oh, I wouldn't say many, some lakes. 17 Q. Have they been found in rivers? 18 A. Some rivers, yes. 19 Q. Streams? 20 A. Streams, yes. 21 Q. Have PCBs been found in the Great Lakes? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Including Lake Michigan? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Do you know if PCBs have been found in the WATER PCB-SD0000052414 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 43 1 Milwaukee River? 2 A. I believe, yes, I believe I remember that. 3 Q. And do you recall PCBs have been found in 4 the Sheboygan River in Wisconsin? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. With regards to the PCBs found in a river, 7 let's take the Sheboygan River for example, how do PCBs 8 get in the river? 9 A. Well, there aremany ways. It all depends 10 what that river is associated with in terms of industries 11 or other streams feeding it. The PCBs could get in there 12 from accidental spills, for example, or someone dumping 13 into a landfill that isn't the proper type and the PCBs 14 work their way in the underground water and end up in the 15 stream or river. It could end up with the disposal into 16 the river of material that were painted with coatings i 17 that had PCBs on them or the carbonless copy paper that 18 had, at one time, PCBs in it. I guess to summarize, 19 most -- many of the uses of PCBs at one time were 20 involved with could have found their way into this water 21 system somehow. 22 Q. Your reference to PCBs that were deposited 23 in landfill that was not of the proper type, I believe, 24 if we can go back and look, for example, in a period of 25 time prior to 1970, are you aware did Monsanto issue any WATER PCB-SD0000052415 ----- Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 44 1 advisories as to what a proper type of landfill would be 2 for disposing PCBs? 3 A. Well, the advice was not of a scientific 4 nature. It referred to the use of a landfill approved by 5 the local authorities who were the people monitoring the 6 landfill activity, its location, and whatever it took to 7 run a responsible landfill, so the advice was dispose 8 this material in a properly authorized landfill. 9 Q. And did that information appear on the 10 Pydraul F-9 label? 11 A. Not on the label, no. 12 Q. Did it appear on the Pydraul 312 label? 13 A. Not on the label. 14 Q. Did that information appear on the Pydraul 15 312a label? 16 A. No. The labels do not refer to disposal and 17 landfills for any chemical that I'm aware of. 18 Q. Did any of those -- strike that. The 312a 19 label, what product does that stand for? 20 A. 312a was the formulation in which the PCBs 21 were removed and the polychlorinated terphenyls were used 22 to give the fire resistance. 23 Q. Did Monsanto at any time place any 24 statements about not disposing of PCB products -- strike 25 that. Did Monsanto ever include on any of its products WATER PCB-SD0000052416 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 45 1 utilizing PCBs on the label information with regards to 2 protecting the environment from exposure to these 3 products? 4 A. Oh, yes. 5 Q. For example, did you do that with regards to 6 your Pydraul 1260? 7 MR. RUNNING: Pydraul 1260? 8 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) I'm sorry, the Aroclor 9 1260, products using trhe Aroclor 1260. 10 A. Yes, we did. 11 Q. Your company did not put such a statement on 12 the labels for the Pydraul F-9, did it? 13 A. That's not true. 14 Q. Is it your testimony that the Pydraul F-9 15 label contains a statement about protecting the 16 environment from exposure to PCBs? 17 A. No. The container of Pydraul F-9 shipped to 18 the customer in addition to its identity label had a 19 second label affixed which carried the environmental 20 message of proper handling, disposal, and use. 21 Q, Was that a Department of Transportation 22 label? 23 A. No, that's a Monsanto-designed label. 24 Q. The labels themselves, that is the F-9 25 label, did not contain such information? PRUT?Y REPORTING service WATER_PCB-SD0000052417 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 46 1 MR- RUNNING: The identity label as opposed 2 to the environmental label? 3 MR. CARLSON: Yes, the identity label. 4 A. The identity label did not contain the 5 environmental statement. The environmental statement was 6 affixed to the container separately. 7 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) The concept of PCBs being 8 in the waterways that we discussed, one of the things I 9 think you talked about was where the waterways were in 10 proximity to industry and whether or not there maybe PCBs 11 present. 12 A. And the question? 13 Q. Okay. I mean, that's one of the things that 14 you would look at to see if there is a potential for PCBs 15 to be present in waterways is whether or not there is 16 industry present? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And as Monsanto found that over the years 19 PCBs would get into cooling waters of manufacturing 20 facilities? 21 A. I've never heard such a report. I do not 22 know. 23 Q. With regards to die cast companies, do you 24 know is water used for particular purposes in die cast 25 operations. WATER PCB-SD0000052418 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 47 1 A. I understand that they do use cooling water, 2 yes. 3 Q. And do you know what purposes that -- or 4 what it cools, what does that water use to cool? 5 A. I think it's the hotmetal, isn't it? 6 Q. Okay. 7 ' A. That's my understanding. 8 Q. Okay. And do you know if PCBs have been 9 found in cooling waters of die cast facilities? 10 A. I do not know that. 11 Q. Is -- have PCBs been found inthe 12 Sheboygan -- strike that. Have PCBs been found in the 13 Waukegan Harbor? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And has Monsanto lookedat wherethose PCBs 16 came from? 17 A. I don't think I understand the question. 18 You mean does Monsanto conduct any program to do this? 19 Q. Or review any literature or talk to anybody. 20 A. We -- Monsanto is aware of the presence of 21 PCBs in Waukegan Harbor primarily because of the 22 environmental protection agency activities in that area. 23 Q. And from the work by the environmental 24 agency commonly known as the EPA? 25 A. Yes. WATER PCB-SD0000052419 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 48 1 Q. Was there some information that was 2 generated as to where those PCBs came from? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Where was that? 5 A. That was from a plant of a company that 6 manufactured outboard motors forboats., at least 7 manufactured parts of the motor. I don't know how 8 complete. 9 Q. And where did the -- or where were the PCBs 10 used in that manufacturing operation? 11 A. Die casting operations. 12 Q. And then how did the PCBs get from the . 13 outboard motor manufacturer to the harbor? 14 A. I can give you my understanding. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. They had in that particular plant a system 17 that involved an extensive sewer system which led to the 18 environment eventually. There was a mixing of water and 19 hydraulic fluid which contained PCBs, and these mixtures 20 were allowed to enter the sewer system and that's how 21 they found their way into the harbor. 22 Q. Were the PCBs to -- as you understood it, 23 intentionally mixed with water? 24 A. Oh, no, it's not an intentional mixture. 25 Q. How does that occur? WATER PCB-SD0000052420 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 49 1 MR. RUNNING: How did it occur -- 2 MR. CARLSON: Yes, that's right. How did 3 that occur. 4 MR. RUNNING: If you know. 5 A. I don't know personally how it occurred 6 other than the general problems that a die casting 7 operation might encounter. 8 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) What kind of general 9 problems are those? 10 A. There are potentials there for leakage from 11 the systems and senses is employed under high pressure, 12 you have that stress on the hoses, the hoses fail 13 occasionally, so there's a lot of opportunity for the 14 liquid to get out of the system, onto the floor, mix with 15 water, and then end up down the sewer, 16 Q. If PCBs are in concentration levels of water 17 of 100 parts per million, can you see the PCBs? 18 A. At 100 parts per million, yes. 19 Q. What levels can't you see them to the naked 20 eye? 21 A. It depends on the type of PCB. The higher 22 the chlorinated content, the less will dissolve in water. 23 Q. Okay. For example, if we looked at the 24 Aroclor 1242 and its mixture of the various molecules, at 25 what percentage level would you expect to be able to see WATER PCB-SD0000052421 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 50 1 the Aroclor 1242 in the water? 2 A. As I recall, Aroclor 1242 at room 3 temperatures will dissolve in water to a level of about 4 200 parts per billion. Anything above that is not truly 5 dissolved. It's two phases. Now, it can exist if there 6 is enough of it as two layers, a water layer and a PCB 7 layer, but generally, in will appear as a cloudiness in 8 the water. 9 Q. Okay. At some point in time, did regulatory 10 agencies start to place upper limits of concentration of 11 PCBs that would be allowable in cooling water discharge 12 from facilities such as die cast companies? . 13 A. I understand such levels were eventually 14 established, but this happened after I was transferred 15 from this PCB assignment. 16 Q. And again, when was that? 17 A. '76. 18 Q. If you'll bearwith me, I'm going to take a 19 break for a second. Is that okay? 20 A. Fine. 21 Q. Okay. Thanks. 22 (At this time, there was a short break in the 23 deposition.) 24 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) We are back on the record, 25 and I appreciate this. Were there some Monsanto products WATER PCB-SD0000052422 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 51 1 that utilized PCBs as a component in which the label 2 itself was modified to contain an environmental 3 statement? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Can you give me an example of some of those 6 kinds of products? 7 A. Do you want it by the trademark 8 description -9 Q. Sure, that would be fine. 10 A. -- or the types of applications? 11 Q. Trademark description would be fine. 12 . A. Well, the Aroclor -- all of the 13 Aroclor-contained PCBs that were sold to the plasticizer 14 application eventually were converted when the old supply 15 labels was consumed where a new printing was ordered, the 16 new message was added along with the other information on 17 the label. 18 Q. I see. 19 A. And that also happened with the electrical 20 fluids that were produced by Monsanto. Again, a case of 21 when the old labels were used, the new labels were 22 modified to show the new message. 23 Q. Did you discuss with people in Monsanto the 24 question whether or not the Pydraul labels should be 25 modified to contain such an environmental statement? WATER PCB-SD0000052423 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 52 1 A. Yes, we did. 2 Q. And who did you discuss that with? 3 A. With the representatives of the business 4 group that sold the Pydrauls. 5 Q. And was the decision made as to whether or 6 not you would make a similar environmental statement on 7 the Pydraul labels that you were making on the these 8 other labels that you described for me? . 9 A. No, because the plans were well underway for 10 eliminating the presence of PCBs in the Pydraul product 11 line and there was ample supply of the old labels still 12 on hand, and it was deemed appropriate to continue to use 13 the add-on label, a separate label to convey the message. 14 Q. Okay. The add-on label or the separate 15 label, is that a label that was developed in 1970? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. So that the F-9s sold prior to 1970, did not 18 have this sticker that we talked about? 19 A. Not only the F-9, but all of the PCB 20 products did not contain that message. 21 Q. Did you do any work or check up to see if, 22 in fact, the lable that you are making reference to or, 23 I'm sorry, the sticker that you are making reference to 24 was, in fact, put on these barrels of the F-9 and 312 25 after they became in use in 1970? WATER PCB-SD0000052424 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 53 1 A. Do you mean that I stayed there and watched 2 ever container leaving the plant? 3 Q. Well, did you see some of them leaving the 4 plant that way? 5 A. I saw some of them being -- the label being 6 added onto the drum at the end of the packaging line. 7 Q. And if the drum arrived at a customer 8 without this sticker on it, that would be contrary to 9 your wishes as of the end of 1970, for example? 10 A. By the end of 1970 -- T don't know if it 11 would be contrary to my wishes. It would -- I'd be very 12 surprised if it didn't have it on by the end of 1970. 13 Q. Okay. Is it possible that some drums did go 14 out without the sticker that were in inventory somewhere 15 at the end of 1970? 16 A. I suppose anything is possible, but the 17 chances of that happening, I just would be, again, 18 surprised. The inventories were never that great that 19 they would last that long. 20 Q. Why did Monsanto develop --strike that. Why 21 did Monsanto put an environmental statement on the labels 22 of some of its PCB products in 1970? 23 A. We put it on all of the PCB products in 24 1970. 25 Q. Well, you put it on the labels, the WATER PCB-SD0000052425 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 54 1 identifying lbels themselves in some products and the 2 sticker on other products. 3 A. Well, the intent is the same. 4 Q. Okay. And I don't want to quibble about 5 that. Why did you decide to do that? 6 A. Again, it was a practical kind of thing. If 7 you have thousands of labels available -- 8 Q. I don't want to interrupt you. I think we 9 have an understanding of that. What I'm interested more 10 in is what had occurred in science that led to Monsanto 11 to putting these environmental statement on its products? 12 A. I misunderstood. 13 Q. No, you didn't misunderstand. I didn't say 14 it very quick clearly. 15 A. The statement, whether it appeared on the 16 total label or as two labels was affixed on the product17 package after Monsanto was firmly convinced that the 18 reports that had been circulating for a couple of three 19 years were truthful, that PCBs were indeed identified as 20 being found in various places in the environment that 21 they could be a contaminant, and the need to control it 22 was established in Monsanto's thinking, that's when the 23 words were put together to convey to the user. 24 Q. When you say that the need to control it was 25 accepted by Monsanto, what do you mean by that? WATER PCB-SD0000052426 ^ontpaorji. rtia^a ifaiidcripCiou Adaioe JO 1 A. Well, I don't know that it was accepted so 2 much as recognized that in order to keep this material 3 from being found in the environment, you've got to 4 control it back where it's manufactured, where it's 5 shipped, where it's used, on and on. 6 Q. Why did it make a difference as to whether 7 or not it was found in the environment? 8 A. (Witness didn't respond to the question.) 9 Q. What was it that was occurring in the 10 environment that prompted this concern to put the sticker 11 on or the label on that contained this statement? 12 A. At what point in time? 13 Q. 1970. 14 A. 1970. There were reports that some species, 15 an example given of an extremely sensitive one was the 16 baby shrimp were affected by PCBs of the higher 17 chlorinated type. There were some reports that the 18 investigator wasn't too sure if it was the pesticides or 19 PCBs, but some wild birds eggs that weren't hatching 20 properly or the egg shell was so thin that the mother 21 bird would break it as she sat on it. There were reports 22 that it was being found in fish. Now, the effect on fish 23 wasn't established. The presence was. And Monsanto 24 decided that since this is a industrial chemical that it 25 manufactured and not knowing what the effects in the PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052427 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 56 1 .2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 environment might be, the responsible thing to do is to prevent it from getting into the environment. A. Did Monsanto sell Aroclors to Westinghouse or PCBs to Westinghouse? A. PCBs to Westinghouse, yes. Q. And did Westinghouse resell those to its customers or some of them to its customers? A. Yes. Q. And did Westinghouse put anenvironmental statement on its PCB products? A. Well, that was Monsanto. Monsanto packaged the material for Westinghouse using Westinghouse's trademark. Q. Didn't Westinghouse put an environmental statement on it's PCB products in 1968? A. '68. I'm not aware of that. I don't know. Q. How are PCBs made? A. We start with a material called biphenyl which in turn is made from benzine which is fairly commonly known. The biphenyl itself at room temperature is a solid material. It looks an awful lot like white candle wax. It is put into big tanks and heated so it becomes a liquid, and then chlorine, the very came kind of chlorine that's used to sterilize or treat swimming pools, the same kind of material, is bubbled through this optSAOfPTXrr C1TT3 T7Tr*T? WATER PCB-SD0000052428 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 57 1 liquid biphenyl. In the presence of iron, we used to use 2 iron filings, and it was agitated. And from experience, 3 the operator knew that in order to make a certain kind of 4 mixture, for example, the Aroclor 1242, he had to 5 continue this chlorination for so many hours. At the end 6 of that period, he takes a sample, and he determines 7 its -- what we call its specific gravity, its weight, and 8 if it reads properly, he stops the chlorination. The 9 material is then flushed with air to remove any chlorine 10 that's still in there and other gases, and it also cools 11 down the material a little bit. That -- we called it 12 crude PCB is transferred over to another system where 13 heat is applied and .the vapors are driven off and 14 distilled and captured and that's the finished product. 15 Q. Okay. When you talk about chlorine that is 16 used, and that's the chlorine atoms that have talked 17 about on our drawing here, Exhibit Number One? 18 A. That is true. 19 Q Chlorine at temperatures that we find, I 20 don't know, in North America, what form is that, is that 21 a liquid, is that a gas, is that a solid? 22 A. Well, it's predominantly -- I can speak 23 better, I suppose, of the industrial uses where it's 24 compressed, put under pressure until it becomes a liquid, 25 and it's stored in steel cylinders and shipped to the WATER PCB-SD0000052429 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 58 1 user. The user in every case that I'm aware of uses it 2 as a gas for his purposes, so it does exist in both 3 forms. 4 Q- All right. As a liquid under pressure? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Chlorine by itself doesn't persist in the 7 environment, for example, in bound dirt in the ways that 8 PCBs do, does it? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Just a little bit ago we had talked about 11 PCBs being found in the environment. When did PCBs first 12 start -- when were they first manufactured for industrial 13 purposes of any type? 14 A. The first industrial manufacturer occurred 15 in, as best I recall, about 1929, in this country. 16 Q. That was by the Swan Chemical Company? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And did Monsanto buy Swan? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And when PCBs were first started to be used, 21 in what applications were they iced? 22 A. They were used as an ingredient in 23 transformer oils. 24 Q. And what property was it about PCBs that- 25 made them good for that? WATER PCB-SD0000052430 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 59 1 A. The two properties., the key one that made it 2 different from other oils was the fact that it was fire 3 resistent. It would not burn readily. The other., of 4 course, it had to be a good insulator. It can't conduct 5 electricity. 6 Q. Does the term dielectric come into play 7 there? 8 A. That's the word used to describe a liquid 9 that has this insulating property. It does not conduct 10 electricity. 11 Q. And then when did Monsanto first start to 12 use the PCBs in any hydraulic fluid application? 13 A. In the 1950s. 14 Q. And from the documents of Monsanto that 15 you've had an opportunity to review, have you found 16 documents which indicate that Monsanto was aware of the 17 potential PCB hydraulic fluid to mix with cooling water 18 under some circumstances? 19 A. I have -- yes, there are some documents I've 20 personally seen which refers to this potential. 21 Q. And prior to 1970, were there any Monsanto 22 documents that you ran across which directed die cast 23 companies not to allow this to occur? 24 A. I don't know your meaning of directed. We 25 had no such control over any customer. I recall WATER PCB-SD0000052431 Computer Aided Transcription by XScrioe O vy 1 references to the undesirability of mixing it with water 2 and there were also some references, I recall, where 3 procedures for salvaging the oil for reuse were 4 described. So the topic of water and oil or fluid 5 mixture was covered in the older documents. 6 Q. This reclamation of Pydraul fluids, that's 7 what you are talking about in one of the types of 8 documents that you were able to see? 9 A. Well, that is a part of the -- a 10 reclamation, by my definition, implies that some chemical 11 is added or taken out, some processing is involved, 12 whereas in a way recycling of the usable -- still usable 13 material is a little different. 14 Q. - Okay. Monsanto at one point, had made 15 recommendations to its die cast customers using Pydraul 16 fluids as to a way that the Pydraul fluids could be taken 17 out of water that it had inadvertently mixed with and 18 then going on to be processed so that it could be reused, 19 did it not? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And the documents that reference that 22 reference that it can be done for economical reasons? 23 A. Well, it's certainly a factor, yes. 24 Q. What does the document say? 25 MR. RUNNING: Well, why don't you show him PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER_PCB-SD0000052432 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 61 1 the product. There's no reason for him to have a memory 2 test over what the documents say. 3 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Do you recall? 4 A. Not specifically. There was the factor of 5 the economic advantage. I don't recall the specifics at 6 all. 7 Q. Prior to 1970, there was no information on 8 any of the advice that Monsanto gave to its customers on 9 separating Pydraul fluids from its water that this should 10 be done to protect the environment; isn't that true? 11 A. That is true. 12 Q. And the fact that you knew that the water 13 and the Pydraul fluid was going to be in existence 14 together, subjected so that it could be recycled if one 15 chose to, you alwo knew that water could go somewhere 16 else, didn't you? 17 MR. RUNNING: Well, I object. You haven't 18 led the foundation of the predicate for the question. 19 You are assuming that it takes place in every instance or 20 the instance in Waukegan. Each plant is different. Each 21 plant has its own unique environment. And many plants 22 don't even have sewer systems connected to the poise of 23 the die cast areas. Stroh is an example. 24 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Can you answer the 25 question? WATER PCB-SD0000052433 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 62 1 A. I think forgot what the exaction question 2 is. 3 Q. Sure. Monsanto recognized that in die cast 4 plants there was potential for Pydraul fluid mixed with 5 water and that Pydraul fluid would then go out into the 6 environment either discharged as part of its cooling 7 water and not -- that is the Pydraul not being separated 8 from the water: isn't that true? 9 A. I don't believe that Monsanto automatically 10 assumed it would enter the environment. There are some 11 practices -- there were even at that point in time 12 practices that an industry were followed to prevent 13 industrial chemicals from being freely discharged into 14 sewer systems or back yards, back of the back lot of the 15 plant, that was not a common enough practice to lead 16 Monsanto to believe that a gross release was taking 17 place. The material really was treated as an industrial 18 chemical like thousands of others are. 19 Q. Okay. Well, let's talk first of all about 20 ways in which the water and the hydraulic fluid maybe 21 mixed together, okay. And one of the ways that could 22 occur is if you have, for example, a pump in the 23 hydraulic system and that fluid gets on to the floor and 24 if it's washed up that can get into water at the plant, 25 correct? WATER PCB-SD0000052434 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 63 1 MR. RUNNING: Well, I object to the question 2 unless you get particulars. You are making a lot of 3 assumptions that you aren't sharing with the witness. If 4 it's like the Stroh plant -- 5 MR. CARLSON: I don't, need for this 6 particular deposition anything other than an objection. 7 If you want to object, object. If you don't want to 8 object, don't object. 9 MR. RUNNING: Listen, Mr. Carlson, don't 10 instruction me on how to state objections. 11 MR. CARLSON: Do you want to go off the 12 record? . 13 MR. RUNNING: No, let's not go off the 14 record. 15 MR. CARLSON: All right. All right. 16 MR. RUNNING: Let''s just stay on the record. 17 and I'm telling you that the question has a lot of 18 assumptions that are improper and it's not an 19 intelligible question. 20 MR. CARLSON: Then don't start referencing 21 particular situations such as a particular company. 22 MR. RUNNING: Well, if you are asking 23 relevant questions, it will be about the Stroh plant, and 24 you know very well the Stroh plant does not have a floor 25 sewer system that leads to a municiple sewer system. It WATER PCB-SD0000052435 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 64 1 has a trench system that leads to an oil collection 2 system, so all of these questions are irrelevant and none 3 of them have any purpose except to mislead this witness 4 or to mislead the Jury. 5 MR. CARLSON: No. You know and the witness 6 knows that Monsanto knew that hydraulic fluid and water 7 was getting mixed together and it was going into streams, 8 it was going into lakes, and it was polluting this 9 country, and this is the one of the ways that it occurred 10 without any wrongdoing by the Monsanto customers. You 11 know that and the witness knows that. 12 MR. RUNNING: I'm sure you'll have other 13 opportunities to rehearse your Jury speaches, Mr. 14 Carlson. All I'm asking you is that you give the witness 15 in your questions enough facts so that he can answer the 16 questions intelligently. I don't agree with your Jury 17 speach, but you are a capable lawyer and I know you will 18 give a great Jury speech come the openin argument but 19 let's save it. 20 MR. CARLSON: Okay. Why don't you then 21 object to the question and we'll let the witness answer 22 it just like the rules provide. 23 MR. RUNNING: That's exactly what I did. 24 I'm asking you to state relevant objections. 25 MR. CARLSON: No, you are asking me to state WATER PCB-SD0000052436 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 65 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 questions. MR. RUNNING: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm asking you -- I mean, a relevant question is a question that pertains to the Stroh plant and you know about the floor systems. MR. CARLSON: The relevant question that pertains to what Monsanto knew about what was happening with its hydraulic fluids in the die cast industry. Now, I will ask the question and you will object to the question and we'll kind of proceed on an early basis. And, Mr. Papageorge, you've been around lawyers long enough that you know that we will get into these tiffs and I'm sure that won't affect you. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Now, it is true, isn't it, that prior to 1970, Monsanto knew that Pydraul containing PCBs on occasions would become mixed with cooling water in die cast facilities, that is true, isn't it? A. Yes. The key word there also, Mr. Carlson, is on occasion. It doesn't happen as a normal practice. Q. But it can happen? A. It can happen. Q. And it is also true that on occasion Pydraul containing PCBs can become mixed in die cast plants with water used to clean the plant? A. I personally don't know of how plant WATER PCB-SD0000052437 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 66 1 management goes about arranging for cleaning its plant. 2 I don't know enough about it to comment on that. 3 Q. For example, you don't know if die cast 4 companies use water to clean its floors? 5 A. Yes, I don't know that. 6 Q. From documents that you reviewed, did 7 Monsanto -- other people in Monsanto know that at some 8 point prior to 1970? 9 A. There were occasions when Monsanto people 10 knew of some instances where the industrial fluid 11 containing PCBs was being released to sewers. This was 12 not perceived to be a general practice, but there were 13 occasions. 14 Q. And after -- strike that. At some point in 15 time, Monsanto recognized that its customers should be 16 told not to allow this to occur; would that be a fair 17 statement? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. That was the purpose of the stickers and the 20 warnings that you put on your products? 21 A. That is correct. 22 Q. Now, would it be correct to say that 23 Monsanto was concerned about the long term effects of 24 PCBs on the environment at the time it abides its 25 customers not to permit to the water and Pydraul to WATER PCB-SD0000052438 Computer Aided Transcription by XScnbe 1 become mixed and discharged into the environment? 2 A. The long term effects were certainly a 3 consideration, but you limited your comment by saying not 4 to mix with water and enter the environment. There are 5 ways to get into the environment other than mixing with 6 water. 7 Q. Surely. 8 A. This label tried to cover any means whereby 9 PCBs end up out there in the environment. 10 Q. Okay. Now, from 1929 until 1968, almost 40 11 years, I guess, what studies did Monsanto do on the 12 potential long term effects of PCBs on wildlife in the 13 environment? 14 A. None. Nodifferent than any other 15 industrial chemical. 16 MR. CARLSON: And we'll strike the last 17 portion as being a voluntary statement. 18 Q. (By Mr.Carlson) At the Anniston plant, was 19 there a water discharge from that plant? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And what kinds of chemicals showed up in 22 that discharge? 23 A. I, again, don't know how to answer to your 24 kinds of chemicals. There were certainly PCBs. And the 25 discharge, are you talking about the discharge from each PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052439 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 68 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 operating unit to this system? Q. No, from the system into the Snow Creek, I think it was. I'm sorry, there was a river or stream going by there? A. There is a creek. Snow Creek, but there was no discharge into that creek. There was rain wash off across the property into that creek. Q. Okay. Did that rain wash off, from what you've been able to determine, carry PCBs with it? A. On occasion it did. Q. And it was recognized back in the early '60s, that there was no life in Snow Creek in the area where these chemicals were being washed into it; is that true? A.^ It's a dry creek expect when it rains, so it's just a natural ditch. Q. And where did that ditch run to? A. As I recall, it emptied into another creek called Shockalocka Creek (phonetic). Q. And where did that go? A. That eventually went into a local lake. I've forgotten the name of the lake. There is a man-made lake in that area. Q. Was any work ever done to determine the effect of these chemicals that have been washed off the OffOOV OPDADHintr! CrDT/TAC* WATER PCB-SD0000052440 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 69 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Monsanto property into that lake? A. There was some studies made about 1970, '71, as best I recall, in which fish were captured and analyzed for presence of PCBs. Q. But nothing prior to 1970? A. That is right. Q. Wasn't there a water discharge from the Anniston plant as well? A. Yes. Q. And where was that water discharged to? A. To the City of Anniston sewage system. Q. And did that water discharge contain PCBs? A. No. Q. Did it on occasion? A. On occasion, I'm sorry.It did on occasion. Q. For example, if you had a pump leak, it could contain PCBs? A. Hum. If that pump leak wasn't properly controlled, it's possible for it to end up in the sewer system, which we try to avoid as much as possible. Q. Are there areas of the country where PCBs are found where there haven't been direct contamination as were some, you know, PCB containing fluid wasn't deposited or the solids stored or land filled or something? WATER_PCB-SD0000052441 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 70 1 A. Yes, there were. I, of course, don't 2 remember all of it, but the two that do stand out in my 3 mind is we have never been able to establish why the 4 brown pelicans off the southern coast of California 5 somehow got exposed to PCBs. There were reports also out 6 of Arkansas, Stuttgart, as I remember was the name of the 7 city there in that area where PCBs were found, and there 8 is no industry there, there was no connection that we can 9 make between industrial use and the presence of PCBs. 10 Q. Did the scientist at Monsanto develop some 11 theories as to how that occurred based on the documents 12 you've add an opportunity to review and the people in 13 Monsanto you've talked to? 14 A. Well, they had some considered scientific 15 opinions. 16 Q. Okay. Do you recall what those were? 17 A. It was primarily one of -- considering the 18 sources coming from the carbonless copy paper 19 application, and the thought occurred that this paper was 20 in many cases probably burned in the typical kind of 21 municiple system, and the burning was not enough to 22 destroy the PCBs. All they did was vaporize it. It got 23 up into the atmosphere, and the rain patterns deposited 24 it in these areas where they were surprised to find it. 25 That was the principle opinio that I heard expressed. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052442 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 71 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Let me go back to die cast companies for a second. Obviously, that's of interest to me. Can you tell me prior to 1970, how did Monsanto expect die cast companies to handle its cooling waters and cleaning waters? A. Expect them to handle like responsible members of industry and each one had to design its own procedures and equipment and make sure that they were being followed. That's the expectation. Q. And what kinds of procedures did you at Monsanto expect them to develop with regards to the handling of the their cooling waters and cleaning waters? MR. RUNNING: Objection. The questions ambiguous. Are you assuming that those waters are contaminated with PCBs? MR. CARLSON: I'm not assuming anything. I just want to know what Monsanto though about how they were handing the waters. MR. RUNNING: If Monsanto had any opinions. A. It covers a full spectrum of ways to handle industrial waste waters, entrapment, diverting them to the proper places, to disposing properly, to treating, all kinds of treating technologies available. It's nothing so sophisticated that a modern industry couldn't, get -- didn't have access to. WATER PCB-SD0000052443 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 72 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Well, Monsanto had some large customers of its hydraulic fluids I presume such as General Motors? A. Yes, they did. Q. I suspect Monsanto had some very small customers of hydraulic fluids that bought maybe just one or two barrels a year? A. They had small ones, yes. I don't know the quantities involved. Q. Was it Monsanto's expectation that the small die cast companies would be handling hydraulic fluids the same way -- strike that. The small die cast companies would be handling its cooling waters and cleaning waters the same way as the larger companies like General Motors? MR. RUNNING: Objection. The questions compund assuming cooling waters and waster waters. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Go ahead. A. I don't know that the expectations that Monsanto had. I had no information to lead me to think that the expectations varied with the size of the customer. They were expected to behalf responsibly with the material. Q. What was the maximum concentrations of PCBs in cooling water in 1965, that Monsanto thought its die cast customers could release them to the environment WATER PCB-SD0000052444 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 73 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 without fear of damaging that environment? A. I don't know of any number that was established at that time. It was primarily one of visible to the naked eye presence of oil in that water that was discharged. The analytical methodology was not such that it could have detected the levels that were detectable in later years. Q. When did Monsanto first tell its customers the maximum concentration levels that it recommended that could be discharged safely into the environment? A. Monsanto did not arrive at a number that was official. They had a recommendation. Q. What was the recommendation? A. Ten parts per billion. Q. And when did that recommendation come into effect? A. About 1970. That was dependent on the analytical capability that was considered to be something that was feasible, responsible, and capable of being achieved by a good well-managed laboratory, not necessarily at the forefront of research, but day in, day out kind of analysis. Q. And how did Monsanto convey that recommendation to users of the Pydraul fluids in the die cast industry? WATER PCB-SD0000052445 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 74 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Primarily through the field representatives in which the field representative was made aware of what Monsanto's plants were striving for as a target. That's the primary means of doing so, yes. Q. So that about 1970, or in that era, Monsanto developed a recommended maximum PCB discharge level in waste water of ten parts per billion? A. Yes. Q. And that was Monsanto's own internal standard that it had tried to adhere to? A. Yes. Q. But Monsanto did not write to the customers that had purchased, for example, Pydraul 312 telling them that they should have their water analyzed to see if their discharge contained PCBs in excess of ten parts per billion? A. No. We were told to keep it out of the environment. Q. Prior to 1970, youdidn'ttell them anything? A. That's true. Q. And then the ten part per billion, when you say keep it out of the environment, you personally, because 1970 you were involved, you knew that absolute zero concentration level wasn't feasible for die cast WATER PCB-SD0000052446 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 75 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 companies, didn't you? A. Well, I don't know that I limited to die cast companies. I personally believe that there was a practical level that could be measured and achievable and that from all I could understand, that amount would not cause problems with the environment and that's how I arrived at that number. Q. Okay. But -- strike that. Were there any memorandum given to salesmen -- directing salesmen to tell Pydraul customers to keep their water discharges down to a maximum of ten parts per billion of PCB? A. I don't recall any memorandum. I do know that there were training sessions of which this was discussed. Q. Was this a concept that was important to Monsanto? A. Q. case? Sure . Yes. Have you read any of the depositions in A. Q. testimony. A. QA. Yes, I have. Have you read Mr. Damiani's (phonetic) Yes, I have. Have you talked to Mr. Damiani? No. WATER PCB-SD0000052447 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 76 1 Q. Are you aware of any indication that Mr. 2 Damiani ever told people at Stroh that their water 3 discharge should be kept down to a maximum of ten parts 4 per billion of PCB contact? 5 A. I'm not aware of that. 6 Q. Was he supposed to have done that back in 7 1970 or when ever he was calling on Stroh? 8 A. From my position, I relied on individuals 9 like Mr. Damiani to convey these messages. 10 Q. So was he supposed to do that? 11 A. Yes. From where I was sitting, he was the 12 link between my office and the customer. 13 Q. At any time that Monsanto manufactured 14 Pydraul hydraulic fluids containing PCBs, did the company 15 ever tell a customer how to properly dispose of the 16 hydraulic fluid containing those PCBs? 17 A. There were suggestions made on methods that 18 Monsanto had personally tried and found successful. And 19 these methods were shared with customers that had a need 20 for them. 21 Q. For example, you shared that with 22 Westinghouse? 23 A. That's one example. There were thousands. 24 Q. Did you ever share that with smaller 25 companies purchasing your hydraulic fluids such as Stroh? WATER PCB-SD0000052448 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 77 1 A. If there was a need to,yes. 2 Q. Okay. There -- 3 A. I didn't perceive Stroh as having that kind 4 of need. We are talking now about discharges and water? 5 Q. No, we are talking about how to properly 6 dispose of hydraulic fluid containing PCBs? 7 A. Ah, yes, yes. 8 Q. Okay. You did tell your customers? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And how did you goabout doing that? 11 A. Some of it bywritten letters. 12 Q. Okay. Can you give me some examples -- 13 - A. Some -- 14 Q. I'm sorry. Go ahead. You can list them and 15 then we'll go through those. Some by letters. 16 A. Letters. Some were the general mailing type 17 and some were in response to specific questions. There 18 were instructions on labels of some of the PCB products 19 that survived after the 1970 withdraw program giving a 20 telephone number for its intermission service available. 21 And, of course, the word of mouth approach by the field 22 representative. 23 Q. Okay. Now, if we direct our attention to 24 the time that Monsanto made the Pydraul F-9 and 312, was 25 there a general mailing to those customers of those WATER PCB-SD0000052449 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 78 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 particular products advising them how to properly dispose of the Pydraul hydraulic fluid during the time you manufactured them? A. I'm not aware of -- you are talking now about the period of 1950s, 1960s? Q. Up until whenever you stopped making the 312 and F-9. A. Well, sometime in 1970, 1970 on, the availability of an incineration service was made known. Q. There was a letter sent to the Pydraul 312 and/or F-9 customers advertising them that this incineration service was available? A. Yes. There was a letter -- I believe it was 1973 or so, somewhere in there. Q. You weren't making 312 or F-9 in '73, were you? MR. RUNNING: They were making 312. MR. CARLSON: Okay. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) You were making 312 in '79? A. That's beside the point. The fact is that many units still had them in their symptoms. Q. I'm not quarreling about the decision. I'm just trying to get my time frame straightened out. Were you making 312 in 1973? WATER PCB-SD0000052450 Computer Aided Transcription by XScnbe /y 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. In 1973, we had 312c. It was a second reformulation. Q. Okay. You had 312, 312a -- was there a 312b? A. Q. No. I didn't think so. And there's a 312c? A. Yes. Q I'm just looking at the 312a was a terphenyl? A. Yes. Q. 312 was biphenyl? A. Yes. Q. And what I"m trying to look at is for the F-9 and the 312, not the 312a and the 312c, but for the period of time for the F-9 and 312, did Monsanto ever tell its customers how to properly dispose of that hydraulic fluid? MR. RUNNING: As opposed to reclamation disposal? MR. CARLSON: That's right. A. The advice that was given as to properly dispose of it, we were not in any position to recommend specific engineering technologies for treating the waste such that it was acceptable to a public system or really to open streams like using carbon beds, clay beds. i PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052451 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 80 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 distillation, catalytic approach. There was several technologies that could have been recommended. Not knowing the total picture at any plant in terms of what chemicals were present, how much water is involved, and how often it happens, that one cannot make specific suggestions. All you can say is handle it responsibly and that's the only message that Monsanto could give at the time. Q. Later on you told some customers to burn their -- that is incinerate their hydraulic fluids? A. We didn't tell them. We just said if you decide to dispose of material and want some help in so doing responsibly, Monsanto has a service which we are happy to provide for a cost that we hope is break even. We are not going to make any money at it, but we want you to have a responsible place to go. This is available. And that happened starting in 1970 and continued until 1977. {At this time, there was a short break in the deposition.) Q. (By Mr. Carlson) We've had a change of the tape so now we can continue. With regards to incineration, the incinerators were first, built by Monsanto for that purpose when? A. It was one incinerator installed and WATER PCB-SD0000052452 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 81 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 operating in 1972, as best I recall, but the material to be destroyed was being accumulated starting in the middle of 1970. Q. And you were charging 3 cents a pound at that time plus shipping? A. Initially it was 3 cents and as time went on and cost and energy costs particularly kept going up, we had to increase the price. It did go up somewhat, but we could not keep ahead of the fuel cost. Energy cost was tremendous. Q. The company also kicked up the prices of the PCB products that were still on the market because of the environmental problems they were causing also, though, didn' t. you? A. Well, certainly the costs associated with addressing the environment were part of it, but there were other increased costs associated, labor, materials. everything was going up. Q. You specifically told some of your customers buying PCB products after the environmental problems became known that you were going to increase those costs because of the environmental problems that were associated with it; is that true? A. That was one -MR. RUNNING: What relevance does that have nooov oonAomTM/' ccDtrrrp WATER PCB-SD0000052453 -- Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 82 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 with this case? MR. CARLSON: You don't object to relevancy. A. That was one of the reasons for the increase cost, yes. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Every once in a while I go off on tangents, so I'm trying to get where I started at one point. And that was hydraulic fluid mixing with water and die cast, okay, and one of the things we talked about was you can have a pump that starts to leak, that's one thing that may occur, correct? A. That can occur, yes. Q. Have you ever seen a die cast machine? A. Yes, I have. . Q. A die cast machine in which aluminum is handled will utilize about how many gallons or use how many gallons of hydraulic fluid in the system? MR. RUNNING: Object to the question. You have to know the tonnage of the press. It's not a aluminum machine, you have to come into the press. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) There's a couple things about that, all of which you say is accurate and you can give me a range. MR. RUNNING: If you can. It sounds like guesswork to me. A. I don't know anything about the design of WATER PCB-SD0000052454 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 83 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that machinery, so I can not tell. I don't know. Q* (By Mr. Carlson) You've seen some calculations at Monsanto for clean up costs using a hypothetical of 200 gallons or a die cast machine? A. I don't remember that. Q. Okay. We'll refresh your recollection later. What I'm interested in is in a die cast machine. are there just one or two hydraulic connections or five or six or lots of them? A. I don't know the exact number. I'm under the impression there are several. Q. Okay. Is it your understanding that in the die cast industry every one of the connections of the hydraulic system on a die cast machine is subject to leakage at some point? MR. RUNNING: On connections are you referring to valves? Q. Hosing, hosing and pipe -- piping. A. Any connection that consists of these two parts is subject to leakage. Q. Okay. And when that occurs in a die cast -- have you seen that occur in a die cast house? A. No, not personally. Q. Is it your understanding when that occurs typically you have some fluid that will leak onto the WATER PCB-SD0000052455 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 84 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 floor? A. That's one of my understandings, yes. Q. And is another way that hydraulic fluid -- hydraulic fluid was not inexpensive back in the late '60s, early-'70s, was it? A. I don't know what to compare it to. If you compare it to just plain old mineral oil, it's more expensive. I don't know what relative value with anything else. Q. Okay. In any event, it's not something you would expect your customer to try to waste? A. No, I wouldn't expect them to, not if it's responsibly managed. . Q. But in filling hydraulic systems, does some spillage occur? A. Never having seen that done, I'd only be guessing. I don't know. Q. Is it your understanding that some leakage of hydraulic fluid occurs in areas of gaskets in hydraulic systems of die casting machines? A. I understand that some of that occurs on occasion, yes. Q. And that material can work its way onto the floor? A. In some cases, yes. WATER PCB-SD0000052456 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 85 1 Q. One of the ways to keep hydraulic fluid out 2 of the general cleaning water of the plant would be to 3 build a dike around a die cast machine; is that true? 4 A. That's a way to do it. 5 Q. And did Monsanto ever make a recommendation 6 to any of its customers buying hydraulic 9 or 312r would 7 that be done? 8 A. I am under the impression on occasion, yes. 9 Q. And was that information that was conveyed 10 in a product brochure for the 312 and the F-9 fluids? 11 A. I don't remember it being included in the. 12 brochure. 13 . Q. Was this something that a salesperson could 14 tell a customer if a customer was experiencing a 15 particular problem? 16 A. Yes, definitely. 17 Q. But it was not something that Monsanto asked 18 its customers to do in order to contain the hydraulic 19 fluid, is it? 20 A. Well, Monsanto did not ask it to do, it. 21 suggested when the question of how do I control did come 22 up, we were in a position to suggest that as one 23 approach. 24 Q. But Monsanto did not make a general 25 recommendation to all of its customers that it do that? WATER PCB-SD0000052457 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 86 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. No. Q. For the sales of Pydraul 312 and F-9 hydraulic fluids to die cast houses, now, prior to 1970 or *71, or perhaps forever, did Monsanto understand that there would be sales of hydraulic fluids to these companies to make up for the fluids that had been lost during the normal course of the business of that company? A. Well, what do you mean by the word lost? Q. Escaped. The machines had tobe -- the fluid had to be added to the machines. A. I understand. In other words, the fluid left the system for which it was intended and had to be replenished? Q. That's correct. A. Yes, we understood that. Q. Prior to 1970, did Monsanto ever make a study to determine what was happening to that fluid? A. If by a study, do you mean a very formal kind of project with engineers involved and statistics or data tape? Q. I'll take any kind of study that you want to talk about, either casual observations of formal studies. A. Well, there were casual observations made in those situations where our field representative had the opportunity to go back into the operation and see things. WATER PCB-SD0000052458 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 87 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 This doesn't always happen. Many companies do not want outsiders walking through their plants, so we are not in a position to know everything that went on. Depending on the point in time, if it happened after the environmental issue became a point, our field people would emphasize the need to control losses. Q. Let's take a look at prior to 1970. Where did the company think all of this make up fluid that you were selling or the fluid that you were making up had gone? A. Well, some of it was returned for reclaiming, attempts to reclaim. Q. What percentage? A. Oh, gosh, I you have no number personally Q. A small amount? A. (Witness didn't respond to the question.) Q. Compared to total sales. A. I don't know how to compare small. Q. Five percent. A. In terms of total fluids in systems throughout the country, it is small. Q. Okay. A. The -- I lost my train of thought. Q. We were looking at where did the company think all of this fluid had gone that you were selling as nponv nonAomrw^ e tJtJirTrr WATER PCB-SD0000052459 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 88 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 make up fluids? A. Some of it was presumed to be disposed in land fills authorized by the local communities because that's where most of the landfills were authorized, counties, municipalities in which chemicals were permitted to be disposed. Q. I don't want to interrupt you, but I want to explore that just a little bit. Under what circumstances would a die cast company put hydraulic fluid into a landfill? A. It would have to be a judgment on the part of the managers that economically, for one reason, it is better for them to introduce new material into their system rather than try to recover and reclaim. He may not want to or may not have enough material at any one time to send to a reclaiming company such as Monsanto provided. On the the other hand, the contamination maybe so severe because of the operation of whatever took place, that it would not be capable of being reclaimed. So that a judgment call was called for here. Q. Are we talking again -- I want to make sure you and I are tracking together right now. When we are talking about putting the hydraulic fluid into a landfill, are you talking about hydraulic fluid that has mixed with other fluids, for example, water in the plant? WATER PCB-SD0000052460 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 89 A. That's an example. Q. Okay. Are you saying that die cast companies would take barrels of straight Pydraul hydraulic fluid out of its system and put them into a landfill? A. Some of them did that had a lot of contaminant -- metal contamination was one that I was aware of. Other chemicals that were used, releasing oils, and I'm not familiar with all of them, but there are other chemicals on site. Even detergents, when they wash down the equipment and so on, get mixed in to it to the point where it's not recoverable and economically, they make a decision rather than send it to Monsanto or some other company to recover, I will choose to put it in a landfill. Q. And where else did these fluids go that you were selling as make up or part of your make up sales? A. I can't think of any other place where we'd take quantities that would amount to anything. A. Land fills were the principle one. Q. Did Monsanto believe that some of the fluids it was replacing had made its way into lakes and rivers and streams? A. Yes, some of them were later on particularly determined to have ended that way. WATER PCB-SD0000052461 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 90 1 Q. When you say later on, is that because of 2 changes in the die cast practice or because of increased 3 knowledge by Monsanto? 4 A. Because of increased knowledge, we are in a 5 position to ask questions and get the answers as to where 6 the material went -- in some cases not all. 7 Q. Okay. As I understand it, the salesmen were 8 kind of your window to the die cast world? 9 A. Well, that's the way I precieve them. They 10 really reported to another line of management. They were 11 the company spokesmen in the field. 12 Q. And the salesmen report back to management 13 saying here is how or customers are handling the fluids 14 and here is how they are getting mixed with water and 15 here is how they are getting out into the environment, 16 and make recommendations about those kinds of things to 17 the management? 18 A. That would happen. Many times the salesmen 19 would take the initiative and call the individual in 20 Monsanto and he felt he could give him the best advice. 21 It might be the product specialist who is in St. Louis 22 who has the technical background and use background and 23 can guide them, especially if the salesman in the field 24 is relatively knew, or he can ask the research man or the 25 engineering department or he can even call me and say can WATER_PCB-SD0000052462 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 91 1 that happen on occasion or he can call the manufacturing 2 plant at Monsanto. So he had access to a lot of people 3 who were familiar with the material and could give him 4 some points that he could share with the ctistomer. But 5 at no time was a salesman expected to be an engineering 6 consustant to sit down and make blueprints that he gives 7 to his company and as to how to design this system and 8 operate it and what results we can expect. We just 9 didn't have that capability, and we were not an 10 engineering consulting business. 11 Q. Okay. If one of your salesmen back in the 12 late *60 -- '69 isn't the year, but there is no magic 13 about that, I guess -- and come to you and said, well., we 14 have a situation where a die cast machine leaks like all 15 die cast machines leak, and there's some make up fluid 16 that has to go in it each year, and this die cast fluid 17 is getting onto the floor and folks are washing it up and 18 there's some of this fluid that I know is mixing with 19 water and it's going into the river near by, okay? And 20 he comes to you with no more information than that. This 21 is just, you know, he doesn't know how many gallons of 22 water they are using in the plant and they don't know, 23 you knowm, the precise number of gallons of hydraulic 24 fluid that's being leaked. What kind of guidelines did 25 you give your salesperson to help the customer understand WATER_PCB-SD0000052463 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 92 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the nature of the problem from that year -- in that year? A. I, first of all, will review with them to go back to that customer and talk to the right people there, wh oever -- what ever it takes, talk to the people that are in the position to do something and make certain that they understand the need for tight control. Q. In 1969? A. I'm sorry. No, I wasn't in a position in '69. I'm assuming it was after I was in a position to receive such a message. That would have had to be after *70. Q. From the documents you've reviewed, what would your company's position be in 1969? MR. RUNNING: If you know. A. I don't reallyknow. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Okay. Did you ever draft suggestions for die cast companies where you would recommend to them that they go to a closed loop cooling system? A. No. Q. I can never go into a subject ahead of myself. Specifically, do you recall on August 31, 1970, drafting any suggestions for customers to prevent mixing of PCBs with water? A. Yes. PRRBV PBPOP'TTMr: SEPVTrR WATER PCB-SD0000052464 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 93 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q, And did that involve a closed loop recommendation? MR. RUNNING: As opposed to a closed loop cooling system? MR. CARLSON: That's right. A. It's a closed -- the expression closed loop from my position at the time referred to the PCB fluid and its control. I was in no position to advise die casting customers how to design their cooling systems. I knew nothing about those. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Okay. So you had drafted suggestions for going to a closed loop system for handling the hydraulic fluids? A. Yes. MR. RUNNING: I think of the expression. Don, is closing the loop. MR. CARLSON: Pardon me? MR. RUNNING: I believe the expression closing the loop MR. CARLSON: Well, we are both wrong. close the loop. MR. RUNNING: Close the loop. MR. CARLSON: Close the loop. MR. RUNNING. All right. No jarring. MR. CARLSON: That's right. WATER PCB-SD0000052465 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 94 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Was that particular recommendation set out to the general customers of the Pydraul 312 fluid? A. Not at Monsanto, no. Q. Did Monsanto, prior to 1970, know that PCBs, at least the higher chlorinated PCBs were not biodegraded? MR. RUNNING: Higher referring to what, five chlorine? MR. CARLSON: Four. MR. RUNNING: I object to the characterization MR. CARLSON: Okay. A. Monsanto - MR. RUNNING: He's asking you about four chlorine. A. I understand. Q. He knows. A. Monsanto did notarrive at any conclusion that the four chlorine type of PCBs were not degrading. Q. How about for five andup? A. For five chlorine and up, they had a very strong scientific opinion that the five chlorine and higher would be resistent to degradation starting in as soon as we began to believe the analytical results which WATER PCB-SD0000052466 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 would be '69, '68 period, where we began to believe the results say, yes and truth that is an Aroclor 1254, that representatives the fuve chlorine and higher, the chances are extremely good, they are not degrading, that's why they are found in of the places they are being found. Q. Well, 1242 has the five chlorine also? A. It does. Q. Prior to Jensen's work, I guess, in '66, what did Monsanto think was happening to all of the PCBs that it was making up in its sales? A. Well, he had many many types of thoughts involved here. There were many, of course, electrical use still in service today. Q. Still there? - A. Right. 50 years or more. Q. Let's stay to thehydraulic fluids just -- the rest of our interest and we may need to get to them, but for the hydraulic fluid that was sold as make up fluid, prior to Jensen's work, what did Monsanto think was happening to that fluid? A. Monsanto - MR. RUNNING: I object. The questions ambiguous. He's told you what happened, and I think you should be specific whether you are talking about a landfill or something else. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052467 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 96 1 MR. CARLSON: No, I mean after they are 2 there. I mean once the things are out there, what did 3 you think happened to them? 4 A. Once they are out there, Monsanto with its 5 understanding of the type of material the PCBs were with 6 respect to exposure to sunlight or exposure to other 7 chemicals, to most anything it was exposed to, it was so 8 stable, it was perceived just be present? 9 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Like pebbles on the beach. 10 A. Well, I have used that expression. I don't 11 know if it's a good one. It's there, and we should be 12 surprised in spots that are highly concentrated, but from 13 its nature, as understood at the time, it was not 14 believed to do anything. ' 15 Q. Okay. But it was understood to be present? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q- Okay. Knowing that it was stable, being 18 prior to Jensen's work, knowing that it was stable, did 19 Monsanto accept the fact that even if you have small 20 concentrations of PCBs at one point, if you continue to 21 deposit small amounts in an area that there would be a 22 continued build up? 23 A. I think normal logic would lead you to that 24 conclusion, yes. 25 Q. And did Monsanto have some understanding as WATER_PCB-SD0000052468 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 97 1 to what levels of build up prior to 1966, could cause, 2 for example, chloragni (phonetic). 3 MR. RUNNING: Don, are you talking build up 4 in the environment or build up in organisms? 5 MR. CARLSON: Build up in the environment. 6 That's a fair comment. 7 A. The chloragni symptom was, of course, 8 associated with human beings exposed to the material. 9 Q. Right. 10 A. The fact thatthe high concentration of PCBs 11 exist in a spot dose not relate to direct human exposure. 12 You can have an open drum of PCBs in the corner of a work 13 area, and as long as it's not heated to create some fumes 14 or as long as the individual doesn't put his hands in it, 15 chloragni will never occur. 16 Q. I understand. I'm not a scientist, but from 17 what I read, I understand that. What I'm looking at is 18 if you have small amounts of PCBs being discharged into a 19 waterway, okay, amounts that Monsanto, prior to 1965, 20 would have said, that's fine, we don't see any problems 21 with that, they are like pebbles on the beach. Over a 22 period of time, as I understand it, PCBs will continue to 23 build up? 24 MR. RUNNING: Well, I object the 25 characterization that Monsanto thought it was fine to WATER PCB-SD0000052469 ^Oiupa(,<;! mucu n.cmov.1. XX *-* V- i_ -L. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 release PCBs into the waterways. There is not evidence of that. I object to that. MR. CARLSON: Okay. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Is it your belief that prior to 1966, Monsanto believed that it was not appropriate to release PCBs in any concentrations of water into the waterways? A. That's right. Q. None at all? A. Well, none means -- Q. Zero. A. -- not one molecule -Q. That's right. A. -- and that's not very practical, but just the release of an industrial chemical of which PCBs were considered -- Q. Okay. A. -- that's the kind of material it is, it's just not good industrial responsible practice to release it into the environment knowingly. Q. Okay. But Monsanto knew that some PCBs were being released into the environment as a part of housekeeping in industry such as washing the floors in a die cast company? MR. RUNNING: Well, are you talking about PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052470 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 99 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the sewers or directed to waterways -- MR. CARLSON: No, to waterways. MR. RUNNING: -- or to landfills? To waterways. MR. CARLSON: That's right, MR. RUNNINC: I object to waterways. A. I cannot speak to that. I do not have any evidence that tells me that a Monsanto representative saw an incident of that type and didn't comment on it and discouraged it. I just do not know it. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Did you believe that it would be inappropriate for water use to wash down the . floors, etcetera, that were contaminated with PCBs from leaky hydraulic systems to go into the sewer system? MR. RUNNING: Municipal sewer? MR. CARLSON: Yes. A. That was notappropriate. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Do you remember giving a program that's presented for the ANCE (phonetic) committee, C17 on September 14, 1971? A. C107 ? Q. Yes, 107. A. Yes. Q. And do you recall as part that have presentation telling the committe that it was conceivable uponoTTHf: cwuvTrT? WATER PCB-SD0000052471 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 100 1 that many of the PCB hydraulic fluids ended up in the 2 sewer. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And do you recall telling them that it ws 5 not your intention to criticize your customers or your 6 products for that practice because at that time, from the 7 knowledge you had, that wasn't acceptable practice? 8 A. It was not intended to imply that this was 9 a -- I'm look for the right word -- a continuing practice 10 for disposing of pools of liquid that end up on the 11 floor. This was referring to the stain on the floor very 12 much like the oil under your car on your garage floor, 13 it's a stain there difficult to remove except to hose 14 down with a little detergent. That small amount, on 15 occasion, it's acceptable, based on what was understood 16 about PCBs at that point in time. 17 Q. In your presentation to the ANC-E committe, 18 you did not make the same distinction that you just made 19 for me; isn't that true? You didn't say that it was 20 inappropriate to wash down pools of PCB fluid into the 21 sewer system, did you? 22 MR. RUNNING: I object to that question. 23 You ought to show him the document, and if you've got. 24 some impeachment point, make it, but. the questions 25 objectionable. WATER PCB-SD0000052472 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 101 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Go ahead. A. I did not make it because the audience was electrical customers. It would have been irrelevant to them really, and to the point I was trying to make there is thAt there was a possible source from this application based on the knowledge that everyone had about PCBs in prior years. That's what I was attempting to share with that particular audience. Q. Prior years being what years? A. From '69, back to the '50s, for those fluids. Q. Okay. How did you tell your customer then what size pools or concentrations of the leaked hydraulic fluid from the die cast machine which you understood occurred would be appropriate for them to put down the sewers and whether or not it be inappropriate? MR. RUNNING: I object to the characterization. He wasn't talking about any pools being inappropriate to be flushed down the sewer. He was talking about stains on the floor. MR. CARLSON: Okay. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) When did you make that differentiation in anything that you told you customers prior to 1970? A. There was no attempt made to describe the WATER PCB-SD0000052473 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 102 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 source of the PCB prior to entering any sewer system. The attempt to control was based on the ability of an analytical laboratory to analyze the amount that eventually gets away from the site, if there is an amount that does, and this is where that ten part per billion number came that was helpful. Q. That was developed in 1970? A. In 1970, Yes. Prior to that, there was no method available that would help us. Q. Prior to 1970, did you ever tell in either mailings, product brochure, or labels, customers of either the F-9 or the 312 hydraulic fluids, that it was inappropriate for those fluids to be placed into a sewage system that would lead to a municipal sewer? A. Not in those exact words, no. Q. In any words? A. I'm trying to remember the words used about -- MR. RUNNING: You can ask to see the label and he'll show them to you. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Go ahead. A. There isn't -- to my knowledge, there is no label that addresses that. Q. That's right. And it's not addressed in the product brochures either, is it? PERRY REPORTTNr. SRRVTCF WATER PCB-SD0000052474 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 103 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A- The product brochures, I can't remember clearly, that's why I'm hesitating. There was a reference to the desirability of avoiding this kind of situation, but I don't recall the year in which that bulletin was prepared or the exact words or the context. MR. RUNNING: We are about 20 minutes our agreed lunch time. MR. CARLSON: Oh, okay. You got -- my watch stopped, so anytime you want to stop, that's fine. MR. RUNNING: No, I'm not doing that -- Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Mr. Papageorge, do you recall either directly participating in or reading about a Aroclor wildlife project and a review of wildlife accusations that were made back in March of 1969? A. Mr. Carlson, I've read many articles on that subject. Q. Okay. A. Some dated in 1969 and subsequent years, yes. (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit Three was markedl Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Let me just show you, and this isn't a memory contest, I didn't mean it to be. I'm just trying to set the stage. Would you take a look at Plaintiff's Exhibit Number Three just to familiarize yourself with the document if you would, sir. npoov BonAomTWr* n WATER PCB-SD0000052475 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 104 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. RUNNING: John, do you have a copy? MR. PENDERGAST: I don't. Don does. MR. RUNNING: Thanks. (The witness is reading the document.) A. I have finished reading it. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Have you had an opportunity now to review the document? A. I have. Q. And it's a documententitled Aroclor Wildlife Accusations dated March 6 of 1969? A. Yes. Q. And it's addressed to E. Wheeler; is it not? A. Yes. Q. Who is Mr. Wheeler? A. Mr. Wheeler was a Monsanto employee with a title Manager, Environmental Health, and was a member of Monsanto's corporate medical department. Q. And it shows that this was drafted by a W. R. Richard? A. It does. Q. And who is Mr.Richard? A. Dr. Richard was the research group director responsible for research that included studies on PCBs and its products. Q. Is the information that is contained on this DBBBV BBPnRTTNr. SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052476 J_ J. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 exhibit the kind of information that Dr. Wheeler would be expected to address in the course of his work at Monsanto? A. Dr. Wheeler would be expected to address those points raised in this document that relate to animal testing and effects on test animals. Q. Okay. There is a number of people, and I don't think it's necessary to read the list, who received copies of this memo. Do you know, are the people that received copies of this memo on a particular committee or do they all have isolated functions? A. Well, included in that list are members of a group that met occasionally to review the recent information on PCBs. Included also in that group are the supervisors of those individuals. Q. Have you seen thisdocument before? A. Yes, I have. Q. This is a kind ofdocument that Dr. Richard would have prepared in the ordinary course of his work at Monsanto? A. Yes, he would. Q. If you would turn to page 2 for me. There's a paragraph just a little bit lower than mid level which begins, "We can take steps --". Do you see where I'm making reference to? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052477 ^OUlpUC^l AJ.U.CU 1 i. Cllio *-.1. c. X v.iii j. j. a/<3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. I believe I do, yes. Q. And I'm going to read it, but if I misread something, jump in and stop me, okay? "We can take steps to minimize pollution from our own chlorinated biphenyl plants." In that sentence, we being Monsanto? A. Yes. Q. Was there pollution from your own chlorinated biphenly plants taking place at that time? A. There was some discharge, yes. Q. "We can work with our largercustomers to minimize pollution" Did- I correctly read that? A." Yes. Q. Can you identify for me some of the larger customers that he was making reference to? MR. RUNNING: I'll object to lack of foundation. Unless you can show that he discussed this document with Mr. Wheeler, there is not basis to give an opin'on on that. Q,, (By Mr. Carlson) You cananswer the question. A. As I understood it in discussion with both Dr. Richard and Mr. Wheeler early in 1970, they had in mind primarily the electrical equipment customers and the big automotive customers, the people who had systems or operations that used great quantities of material and PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052478 Computer Aiaea rranscrlpciou o* ajciiuc X *w / 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 could have been the principle source. We didn't know, we just thought that could be possible. Q. Are the big automotive companies using hydraulic fluids in their die cast operation? A. Well, that's one of the uses. They had other uses for PCBs also. Q. And then it goes on. "We can continue to set up disposal and reclaim operations. I correctly read that? A. Q. Yes. Which the company did do? A. Yes. Q. And then, "We can work for minimum exposure in manufacture and disposal of capacitors, transformers, and heat transfer systems and minimize losses for large hydraulic users." Did I correctly read that? A. Yes. Q. Large hydraulic users being something like General Motors and Ford? A. Those aregood examples, yes. Q. And then the next sentence begins, "But we can't easily control hydraulic fluid losses in small plants." Did I correctly read that? A. You do. Q. And did you discuss with Dr. Richard what he PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052479 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 meant or how he would categorize the small plant? A. No, we just used the word small with no attempt to define it in terms of numbers of machines or pounds of material purchased, no. Q. And when he says we can't easily control hydraulic fluid losses in small plants, what specific kinds of losses was he making reference to? A. The losses associated with leaks in systems primarily. Q. Those were losses that -- of fluid that were getting into the environment? A. We don't know that. All we know is that they are losing and buying material to replace it. Q. Did Monsanto ever do any work to determine where those losses for the small customers was ending up? A. Yes, they did do some work on a case-by-case basis as reported by the fuel representatives. Q. But again, that is on a plant-by-plant basis? A. Yes. Q. Not an overall industry problem in asmall die cast house? A. No, it's on an as-need basis. Q. Okay. Then if we go down to the second to the last paragraph starting with Risebrough, do you see PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052480 l-Ct -L. ^.4. O 1 where I'm making reference to? 2 A. I do see it. 3 Q. The paragraphbegins,"Risebrough has taken 4 known Aroclor samples and claims to have evidence of 5 enzyme and hormone change," Did I correctly read that? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. "Here there is noquestion of 8 identification." And I correctly read that? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And says, "Either his position is attacked 11 and discounted or we will eventually have to withdraw 12 product from end uses which have exposure problems." Do 13 I correctly read that? . 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And what did occur is you did withdraw the 16 product from end uses which had exposure problems, did 17 you not? 18 A. That is correct. 19 MR. CARLSON: At the time of trial, we will 20 enter or offer as evidence Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 21 Three. 22 MR. RUNNING: My position is the same as 23 always. 24 MR. CARLSON: Sure. 25 (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit Four was marked) PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER_PCB-SD0000052481 Computer Aiaea xranscr xpcj.ou vj /wv-*. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Mr. Papageorge, I've had marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit Number Four, a photocopy of a label. Again, please, feel free to make sure that it is what it appears to be. A. It appears to be a copy of a label used on Pydraul F-9 in the 1950s. MR. RUNNING: Do you have a copy of the label? MR. PENDERGAST: I don't. MR. RUNNING: Let me see it. MR. PENDERGAST: Sure. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) During your review of literature and studies regarding PCB issues, have you had a chance to review an article entitled Observations on the Toxic Effects Resulting from Exposure to Chlorinated Naphthalene and Chlorinated Phenyls with Suggestions for Prevention that was publised in The Rubber Age in August of 1943? A. That sounds familiar. I'd like to know the authors, that would help. Q. Yes. I'm sorry. It's Von Wedel, Holla and Denton. A. Denton, yes, I remember that. (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit Five was marked) Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Would you be kind enough PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER_PCB-SD0000052482 Computer Aided Transcription oy xscnoe ill 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to review Plaintiff's Exhibit Number Five and see if the article that I've referenced here is the article you recall seeing. MR. RUNNING: You don't have a copy of that one either? MR. CARLSON: I don't have a copy of that one. (The witness was reading the document.) (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit Six was marked) A. I have read the article. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) While you were reading the article, I also had marked as an exhibit. Plaintiff's Exhibit Number Six, if you could identify that for me. A. This is a copy of a Monsanto label for its product Pydraul F-9. This type of label would have been in use in the '60s, 1960s. (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit Seven was marked) Q. (By Mr. Carlson) And Plaintiff's Exhibit Number Seven, if you could identify that for me, sir. A. This is a copy of Monsanto's label for its product Pydraul 312, and it was also the type of label that was used in the 1960s on up until the point where 312 was reformulated. (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit Eight was marked) Q. (By Mr. Carlson) And Plaintiff's Exhibit PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052483 1 Number Eight, if you could identify that for us. 2 A. This is a copy of a Monsanto label for its 3 product 312a, which was placed in use and used on 4 products that had been reformulated. That would be about 5 1970 - 1971. 6 Q. Now, if we could refer you back to 7 Plaintiffs Exhibit Number Five, the article in Rubber Age 8 in 1943. Specifically, if you would turn to page 422. 9 My copy is cut off there, but it's the page before this. 10 A. I don't see a number. Is this the page? 11 Q. That's the page. Thank you. On the 12 right-hand side, there is a section entitled Methods 13 -Recommended to Safeguard Workers Exposed to Chlorinated 14 Naphthalenes and Diphenyls. Do you see that? 15 A. I do. 16 Q. And back in the '40s, diphenyls was the word 17 to use for two phenyls rather than biphenyls? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. In the secondparagraph itreferences, 20 "Protection must consist of prevention from inhjalation, 21 ingestion, and skin absorption of these chemicals," does 22 it not? 23 A. It does. 24 Q. "Skin absorption, while long recognized as 25 causing acne-form eruptions, has not, in our opinion, PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052484 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 received proper consideration from the standpoint of systemic effects." Does it read that? A. Yes, it does. Q. It goes on to say that, "Toxic effects from inhalation are without question the most important because of the speed of absorption and the probable high dosage of toxic substances absorbed," correct? A. That is correct. Q. And, "Therefore, adequate ventilation is the primary consideration in any mill. The mill rooms and mixing house should be ventilated by intake and exhaust fans of sufficient volume and velocity to remove the majority of the fumes," correct? A. Yes. ' ' Q. And did this particular article appearing in The Rubber Age was aimed at companies that were manufacturing molded rubber products? MR. RUNNING: If you know. Q. (By Mr. Carlson)If you know. A. I was under an impression this had to do with coating. Q. Okay. The toxic effects of the diphenyls which are referenced in this article would not -- strike that. Let me just for a second jump two pages to page 424, but I think it's going to be cut off on the bottom PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052485 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 114 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 again, and if you look on the left side, second paragraph -- third paragraph from the bottom that begins, "After the above recommendations have been followed --" A. I see that, Q. Okay. There is some other -- there is some recommendations that are given for workers that are working in areas where diphenyls are present? A. Well, diphenylsas well as the other chemicals in this article? Q. Yes. A. Yes. Q. Including, "Clean working clothes consisting of long-sleeved overalls fastened at the neck and wrists should be provided." A. That's correct. Q. "These closed should belaundered frequently, daily if possible." A. Correct. Q. "All eating of lunches, etcetera, should be forbidden in the workrooms." A. Yes. Q. "Candy, cigarettes,chewing gum, and other vending machines of such nature should be placed in recreation rooms that should be provided for the workers." WATER PCB-SD0000052486 U <3 l_ rtJ.UCU UliO^L _i_ <- -i_ 1.1. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yes. Q. Monsanto for its workers was doing these kinds of things based on what you've been able to read back in the '40sf weren't they? A. Oh, yes. Q. And it indicates that new workers should be examined by physicians to check for a history of previous jaundice, liver disease, or skin diseases? A. Will you help me find that? Q. Sure. The right-hand column beginning with the first full paragraph. A. I see it. Q. And people with a history ofjaundice, liver disease, or skin diseases should be rejected or placed in departments where the substance -- toxic substances are not handled? A. That's what it says. Q. And that was your own inplant recommendations as well, wasn't it? A. Yes. Q. And then, "All workers in the millswhere cable satirated with chlorinated naphthalenes and phenyls, whether wet or dry, are handled, should be periodically examined for skin lesions and systemic effects," correct? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052487 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 116 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yes. Q. And then, "No women who are pregnant should be allowed to work in these rooms as they are notably very susceptible to liver toxemia." A. Correct. Q. And then it goes on to talk about some specific tests that are going to be administered to check for systemic effects. A. I see that. Q. In the die cast industry, when people are working on hydraulic systems in die cast companies, do they get saturated with these PCBs? A. Not to my knowledge, no. Q. You haven't heard of people ending up being totally covered with PCBs from working under pressurized die cast systems? A. I haven't, no. Q. None of the information that is provided with regards to the practices for handling PCBs in the workplace in this article appear on any of your labels, dose it? MR. RUNNING: Well, I think that's a compound question. It's also a mischaracterization of the lable. MR. CARLSON: Yeah, and I'll withdraw the DBBPV BBIDnBTTWr. QTTPVTrP WATER PCB-SD0000052488 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 question. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Your labels do not make any reference to potential systemic effects that could be caused by exposure to the PCBs; is that true? A. That is true, but they do caution against exposure. Q. Well, it says, don't have prolonged breathing of the vapors? A. Correct. Q. What does prolong mean in thatsentence? A. Well, that calls for a judgment on the part of the supervisors in the operation to determine how often his employees are exposed and for how long a period of time and does this happen every shift or is it an occasional, an infrequent kind of situation, so there is no hard definition to describe prolong as being so many hours at a certain concentration because it will vary. The higher the concentration, the shorter the time. Q. Did Monsanto have certain in-house standards as to concentrations that were permissible in the workplace for its workers over a specific period of time? A. Yes, we use the ACGIH standards for the 42 percent and the 54 percent type of PCB. Q. And did you advise your customers of those products -- strike that. Did you advise customers of the PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052489 computer Aiaea irunneripuou ao>,i A. A- O 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Pydrauls using the 1242 that this particular standard should be adhered to? A. Well, the discussion was held regarding people exposure. That came up, and we were in a position to sending them copies of the ACGIH brochure. Q. Is that brochure referenced on any of your product brochures or labels? A. It's not on the label and it is in some of the brochures. Q. It's not for the Pydraul 312, is it? A. I don't remember. Q. And it's not in the Pydraul F-9 brochure? A. I just don't remember. I don't know. Q. Okay. When you said that the shift supervisor would have to make this judgment, what criteria did Monsanto expect the shift supervisor to use when making a judgment as to what prolonged exposure to vapors is? A. You are asking for a definite number in terms of a level of concentration and a time period. It has to be this ACGIH standard. He's got to meet that. Q. ACGIH standing for what? A. It's the American Congress of Governmental Industrial Hygienists. Q. Did your standards -- were your standards PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052490 Computer Aiaea rranscrlpcion aocuuc J- j- ^ 1 the same as those standards back in the '40s? 2 A. Yes. In fact, Monsanto helped in gathering 3 the information from which the standards were developed. 4 Q. Are you familiar with or have you -- strike 5 that. Have you talked to any of the people that helped 6 draft the language of these labels? 7 A. Certainly. 8 Q. Have you asked them, why didn't you simply 9 reference this standard rather than telling them to avoid 10 prolonged breathing? 11 A. I don't remember that point coming up in our 12 discussion. 13 Q. Did Monsanto in the1960s, accept the 14 proposition that prolonged contact with the skin could 15 cause liver disorders? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Did Monsanto in either product labeling of 18 312 or F-9 or in the product brochures reference the 19 potential liver damage that could be caused by prolonged 20 exposure to the product? 21 A. I recall some Monsanto brochures referring 22 to that. I do not, at the moment, recall the specific 23 brochure and the time period in which is included in the 24 brochure. 25 Q. You have no recollection of a specific PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052491 computer nxaeu xrins<~:z xpxxou x>jf j.uo v 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 brochure for Pydraul F-9 or 312 that references that to? A. No, I do not. Q. Did Monsanto in the 1960s, accept the proposition that it was inadvisable for pregnant women to work in areas where there could be exposure to PCBs? A. That's my understanding, yes. Q. And is that information contained on either the if F-9 or the 312 product labels or product brochures? A. I don't remember. I'd have to see the brochures. Q. We know it's not on the labels? A. That's correct. ' Q.' Did Monsanto in the 1960s, accept the proposition that it was inadvisable to eat in areas where PCBs were present? A. Certainly, yes. Q. And was that information conveyed to customers of Pydraul 312 or F-9 on its labels? A. Not on the label, no. Q. And was it in the brochures? A. I'd have to see copies of the brochures. I don't remember the details. (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit Nine was marked) Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Mr. Papageorge, I'd like PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052492 A. ggr -- 1 for you to'review for me Plaintiff's Exhibit Number Nine, 2 and my expectation is we can shut the tape down while you 3 are reading it over, 4 (The witness was reading the document,) 5 A, I have read it. 6 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Exhibit Number Nine is 7 what, sir? 8 A. This is a copy of a brochure issued by 9 Monsanto. The topic is Pydraul fire resistent hydraulic 10 fluid, and it pertains to some of Monsanto's hydraulic 11 fluids sold as Pydraul. 12 Q. Okay. And from the document, can you tell 13 the effective date? 14 A. I believe I can. '68. 15 Q. Do you have some recollection of the last 16 revision prior to this document? 17 A. There were some Pydraul versions covering 18 the different types that I, at the moment, don't remember 19 clearly the various versions and the dates of their 20 publication. 21 Q. I don't want to limit you, but I think if 22 you turn to page 12, and you can certainly refer me to 23 any other page that you see that you think is 24 appropriate, that there is a statement with regards to 25 some precautions to follow when handling the fluid. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER_PCB-SD0000052493 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 122 1 A. T see that, yes. 2 Q. Is there any other safety information 3 contained in the product document other than what is 4 contained on page 12? 5 A. No. 6 Q. And on page 12, is any reference made to it 7 being inadvisable for pregnant women to be exposed to the 8 hydraulic fluid? 9 A. There is no such statement. 10 Q. And is there any statement that it is 11 inadvisable for people with liver disease to be exposed 12 to the product? 13 A. There is no such statement. 14 Q. Is there any statement on page 12 that the 15 product could cause liver injury if there was prolonged 16 exposure? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Thank you, sir. 19 MR. CARLSON: At the time of the trial, 20 going back, I will be offering into evidence Exhibits 21 Four through Nine inclusive. 22 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Is it fair to say that in 23 the 1960s, reference was not made in either of the labels 24 or the product brochure to potential systemic effects 25 that could occur from exposure to the Pydraul PCB fluids PERRY REPORTING SERVICE ' WATER PCB-SD0000052494 computer /uaea xrdnscripciou oy /\oaiue J. i 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 because there was a perception that it could jeopardize sales? A. I'm not aware of such a rational being used at all here. Q. Okay. There were other hydraulic fluids on the market in the 1950s, were there not? A. Yes, there were. Q. And were there other hydraulic fluids on the market in the 1960s? A. Yes, there were, all of them with their problems. MR. CARLSON: Move to strike the voluntary comment of the witness. MR. RUNNING: I take it you don't want any involuntary comments, Mr. Carlson? MR. CARLSON: Only the comments that I see to it. MR. RUNNING: Get out the rubber hose. MR. CARLSON: I am sure that you will have ample opportunity to explain anything that you wish to say. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) What is a GLC? A. That describes an analytical instrument, gas liquid chromatographs. Q. What do you use that kind of an instrument PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052495 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 124 1 for? 2 A. It's used to test for the presence and 3 amount of chemicals in a sample that respond to a 4 radiation source which results in a graph being printed 5 by the machine, and the chemist, by looking at this 6 graph, can then determine what material was spotted and 7 how much of it. 8 Q. Did you have a gas liquid chromatographs in 9 the Anniston plant when you were there? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Do you know when they first had one at that 12 plant? . 13 A. As best I recall, they finally got one at 14 about 19 -- they got a unit, but it was after the PCB 15 operation was terminated there, after the phase out 16 program, so it was *71, as best I recall. 17 Q. Do you have some recollection of having a 18 gas liquid chromatograph present on site for quality 19 control testing in the early '60s? 20 A. Yes, there was -- I'm sorry. There was a 21 unit that was being used, but it was not of the 22 sophistication that was needed for PCB analysis. 23 Q. Prior to 1969, am I correct in saying that 24 Monsanto was not aware of the dangers to the environment 25 posed by PCBs? PBBBV BBPnBTTMr. SWRUTCE WATER PCB-SD0000052496 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 125 1 A. Well, I would suggest that the word is 2 potential harm to the environment was not known to 3 Monsanto or anyone else prior to '60 -- late '60s. 4 Q. Would '69 be a fair time period there? 5 A. Yes, that's a good time period. 6 Q. You are familiar with Jensen's work that 7 was -- strike that. Withdraw that. You did not expect 8 the die cast companies to have any more knowledge about 9 the potential effects of PCBs on the environment than 10 Monsanto did, did you? 11 A. That is correct. 12 . Q. You are obviously familiar with Jensen's 13 work, I believe, that was published in '66, although I 14 stand to be corrected? 15 A. The initial work I'm aware of was the 1966 16 report. He had other reports later that followed that. 17 Q. Right. And he began his work in 1964? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What kind of equipment did he use to analyze 20 for the presence of PCBs? 21 A. He had a GLC. I do not know what specific 22 piece of equipment he had. 23 Q. Did you personally talk to him? 24 A. Not to Mr. Jensen. 25 Q. Mr. Jensen was a Swedishscientist? PBRBV RFPnRTTMr. SKRVT f.E WATER PCB-SD0000052497 c-cs j. ni^icu l l ano^i _i_ w j_ i i uj 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yes. Q. He found PCBs present in the environment? A. Yes. Q. You've read his work? A. I've read some articles -- Q. Some of his work. A. I don't know if it's all of the articles he printed. Q. Okay. And you've talked to some Monsanto people that have talked to him? A. Yes, and I've also talked to his -- Q. Supervisor. A. -- supervisor. Q. What was -- I don't think -- hedidn't have a doctorate when he was doing this work, did he? A. As I understood, he was a graduatestudent working for his doctorate under Professor Widmark. Q. What was he looking for at the time he identified PCBs? A. He was working for DDT or the chemicals that result from DDT degrading, DDE being support. Q. And I think we better tell the Jury what DDT stands for. A. I wish I remembered that. I've used the expression DDT so often. It's the commonly known PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052498 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 127 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 pesticide that was widely used from World War II on to 1968 or so, '69. Q. And when he was doing this work looking for DDT or DDE, did he find an interfering peek in his graph: is that what occurred? A. He found several interfering peeks. He had difficulty identifying them. He admittedly speculated that they might be -- they appear to be to him chlorinated biphenyls, and he was asking other laboratories to help him prove or disprove his suspicion. Q. But he didn't start out looking for chlorinated biphenyls as the object of his work,, did he? A. No. Q. How many analytical chemists, if you know, or give me an approximate number, did Monsanto have back in 1964 and 1965? A. Gosh, I have no idea. Hundreds. Q. Scattered all over the world? A. Yes. Q. Jensen's? With equipment at least as good as Mr. A. Oh, no. Q. No? A. No, no. Mr. Jensen was the forefront with his instrument. PEP RV PEPnPTTMrt SEPVTPE WATER PCB-SD0000052499 Computer Aided Transcription oy Ascnoe 1 Q. How did he happen to get this equipment? 2 A. I have no idea. 3 Q. He didn't design it himself, did he? 4 A. No. 5 Q. It was on the market? 6 A. It was, as I understood it, an instrument 7 that was developed, made, manufactured, and sold in 8 Europe. 9 MR. RUNNING: Mr. Papageorge, you shouldn't 10 speculate about the exact instrument he's using if you 11 don't know. 12 A. No. I gave him my understanding of where he 13 got that instrument. 14 MR. RUNNING: You're assuming, for example, 15 just one. I mean don't assume, just answer questions 16 based on your knowledge. 17 A. Thank you. 18 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Okay. Is there any -- 19 strike that. Have you talked to analytical chemists at 20 Monsanto who have, since Mr. Jensen did his work, have 21 attempted to duplicate that work? 22 A. Certainly. 23 Q. And when did the attempts to duplicate Mr. 24 Jensen's work begin at Monsanto? 25 A. Shortly after Monsanto received a PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052500 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 129 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 translation of the report, which was dated 1966, and got. a copy of Dr. Whitmark and Mr. Jensen's methodology, they started the work. That would have to be late '66, early '67. Q. And did Monsanto go out into the environment to see if PCBs were present in fish or birds, that kind of thing? A. Eventually. Q. When did they do that? A. I believe some of that started about 1968. Q. If the Monsanto chemist as a project were asked in 1964, to determine if PCBs were in tissue of wildlife, based on the information that's available to you, you would have expected them to be able to make that determination, wouldn't you? A. I would not. Q. You would not. You had -- were some of the analytical chemists at Monsanto Phd? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Did Monsanto haveaccess to universities and professors? A. Certainly. Q. Does Monsanto gives grants touniversities? A. On occasion, yes. Q. But it is your understandingthat prior to D17DDV OPTJAOO'TliTn o WATER PCB-SD0000052501 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 130 1 1964, if asked, Monsanto could not have detected PCBs in 2 the tissue of animals? 3 A. That is correct. 4 Q. That's because ithadn't been or that 5 protocol hadn't been worked out yet by Mr. Jensen? 6 A. By anyone. 7 Q. It just seems to me that -- strike that. 8 How did Monsanto become aware of Jensen's work? 9 A. Our representatives inEurope, while in 10 Sweden, learned of a report that was made by Jensen and 11 Whitmark, and the reference was made to chlorinated 12 diphenyls or diphenyls. They were not certain. One of 13 the representatives then made it a point to get a copy of 14 that paper and he had it translated into English and 15 shared that copy with chemists in Monsanto who were 16 involved with PCBs. 17 (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibits Ten and Eleven 18 were marked) 19 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) I've had marked as 20 Plaintiffs Exhibit Number Ten a document dated December 21 1st of 1966. I'd like to have you read that over in 22 conjunction with Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 11, which is 23 a document dated November 28, 1966. 24 (The witness is reading the documents) 25 A. I have finished reading. WATER PCB-SD0000052502 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 131 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Mr. Papageorge, would you be kind enough to explain for us what Plaintiff's Exhibit Number Ten is? A. It's a copy of a memorandum, Monsanto memorandum, authored by a Monsanto employee, David Wood, to another Monsanto employee, George Buchanan, in which he transmits a copy of a letter he had received from Monsanto's representative in Stockholm, Sweden. Q. And would you be kind enough to tell us what Exhibit Number 11 is? A. Number 11 is a copy of a letter addressed to Monsanto Europe and to a Dear David. I don't know which David that is. Q. Could that be the attention of David Woods, David Wood? A. I would say yes, but I'm guessing. Q. Okay. Was D. Wood -- A. I'm sorry. It does say Attention D. Wood. Yes, I missed that. Q. Okay. A. Yeah. Written by a Mr. Strand. I don't know who he is. Q. On Exhibit Number Ten, the third full paragraph it begins, "In relation to the specific problem --" WATER PCB-SD0000052503 C<JiUJU XJ-Ciixo'-- j. vi*>u 1 A. I see it. 2 Q. Okay. Please, tell roe if I read it 3 inappropriately. "In relation to the specific problem 4 mentioned of disposal of used materials, we would be 5 interested to learn how this problem is handled in 6 America." Did I correctly read that? 7 A. That is correct. 8 Q. "In the U.K. many companies have burying 9 material in drums, material in the drums having been 10 absorbed into vermiculite or some similar porous 11 material," correct? 12 A. That is correct. 13 Q. All right. "Has any entirely safe method 14 been developed for the disposal of waste Aroclor?" Did I 15 correctly read that? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Did David Wood respond to this inquiry? 18 A. This inquiry was made by David Wood. 19 Q. I'm sorry. You are right. Did George 20 Buchanan respond to this inquiry? 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q You've seen the telex and the letter before, 23 haven't you? 24 A. No, I haven't. 25 Q. You haven't. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052504 OOmpuC<sr Ai.UU 'U'aUoUii;i,iyii j. ^ ^ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. This is my first time -- the first time I've seen it. Q. Have you talked to David Wood about the subjects which are appearing in these documents? A. Oh, yes. Q. Okay. With regard to the question of has any entirely safe method been developed for disposal of waste Aroclor. As of the date of this letter which is December 1st of 1966, do you know what George's response would have been? A. Are you asking me to speculate what Mr. Buchanan -- Q. No," no, I'm not asking you to speculate, only if you had any conversations or reviewed any documents that would allow you to answer that question. A. I just have no idea what a response would have been. Q. On Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 11, towards the end of the first full paragraph beginning polychlorinated biphenyls, do you see where I'm making reference to? It's actually the fifth line down of the first full paragraph. A. Oh, I see it. Q. Please, tell me if I read incorrectly. "Polychlorinated biphenols -- with an o-l-s -- PCB for PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052505 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 134 1 short - accumulated in certain organs of animals. They 2 are said to be related to DDT and equally poisonous." 3 Did I correctly read that? 4 A. Yes, did you. 5 Q. And then it references in the next 6 paragraph, "The findings were duscyssed at a meeting of 7 scientists at the Wenner-Gren Centre in Stockholm on 8 November 22, " correct? 9 A. That is correct. 10 Q. And if I can skip down a little bit and the 11 section which begins in quotation marks, it reads, "It is 12 found in Salmon and in pike. It is sound in see eagle 13 living on fish. It is found on the surface of the 14 needles of the fur trees that is in the air. It was 15 found in the hair of five months baby." Did I correctly 16 read that? 17 A. That is correct. 18 Q. Going down in the next paragraph beginning 19 with the fourth line from the bottom, starting, "It has 20 been found -- " Do you see where I'm referencing? 21 A. I see it. 22 Q. "It has been found that they consist of a 23 group of poisons, polychlorinated biphenyls (for short 24 PCB), which are closely related to and equally poisonous 25 as DDT." Did I correctly read that? PKPSV BKPnRTTMfl SBPVT ftl WATER PCB-SD0000052506 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 135 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. That is correct. MR. RUNNING: Let me -- allow me to a continuing objection of reading from documents and just asking this witness if you've read from the correctly. That's not a proper use of the document. It's not admissible. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) And the next paragraph which says, "PCB is broken down considerably slower than DDT and gives rise to damage of liver and skin." Did I correctly read that? A. Yes. Q. And is that consistent with Monsanto's knowledge of PC-Bs as of November of 1966? A. Well, the statement is so broad, it does not refer to the type of damage and the amount of PCB required to cause that damage. The reference to broken down as compared to DDT, I personally do not know of any studies conducted in this country at least by anyone comparing the two chemicals and their rate of degradation. Q. Okay. Certainly Monsanto accepted the fact that PCBs at some levels could cause liver damage? A. Yes. Q. And skin damage? A. That's old news. WATER PCB-SD0000052507 "Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 136 1 Q. Okay. Have you read any studies which have 2 concluded that the material reported by Jensen in his 3 work was, in fact, not PCBs? 4 A. There's no such report to my knowledge. 5 Q. It was reported to your company -- actually, 6 it's the third full paragraph on page 2 where it says, 7 "PCB is found in water and in air --" Do you see where 8 I'm making reference to? 9 A. I see it. 10 Q. Okay. It was reported to your company by 11 one of your own representatives in 19 -- in November of 12 1966, that- PCBs were being found in water and in air, 13 correct? 14 A. I don't understand your reference -- to what 15 company? 16 Q. Monsanto. It's being reported to Monsanto 17 that PCBs are being found in the water and in the air. 18 A. It's being reported by this individual who I 19 don't know his connection to Monsanto. 20 Q. Okay. DidMonsanto marketAroclors in 21 Europe prior to 1966? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Did Monsanto market Aroclors inSweden prior 24 to 1966? 25 A. Yes. D PDAOmTlil/! CPPVTfR WATER_PCB-SD0000052508 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 137 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Did Monsanto market PCB hydraulic fluid in Sweden prior to 1966? A. T don't know. Q. Did Monsanto market PCB hydraulic fluid in Europe prior to 1966? A. Yes. Q. The last page, it's really the second to the last paragraph which says, "I suppose there is no doubt --" Do you see where I'm making reference to? A. I do. Q. I guess for lack of a better way of approaching this I'm going read it. "I suppose there is no doubt that what had been termed polychlorinated biphenyls is equal to Aroclor.'' Did I read that? A. That is correct. Q. Is that a correct statement? A. Correct in what way? Q. That what, was being termed polychlorinated biphenyls in that sentence is equal to Aroclor. A. Well, it did exist among many responsible scientists as of 1966, when this document was prepared. It was later that the doubt, was removed and the PCBs were equivalent to some of the Monsanto products. Q. Okay. Just about, I guess, the lower third of the same paragraph it reads, "The problem in some WATER PCB-SD0000052509 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 138 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 case, of course, may be the disposal of used material." Do you see where I'm making reference to? A. I do. Q. What particular problem, if you know, is he making reference to? A. I can, again, only assume what this author had in mind. I don't know -- Q. Okay. A. -- what he wasthinking of. Q. Thank you. MR. CARLSON: And we'll offer Exhibits 10 and 11. MR. RUNNING: Do you want to take a break? MR. CARLSON: Okay. (At this time, there was a ten minute break in the deposition.) Q. (By Mr. Carlson) At a point in time Monsanto commissioned some studies to be done by an independent laboratory to see what the effects of PCBs were on certain animals and birds? A. Yes. Q. And the company doing that work was known as IBT? A. Yes. Q. What does IBT stand for? OPBOV BB'OOO'PTMO CJJPVTrW WATER PCB-SD0000052510 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 139 1 A. Industrial Bio-Test. Laboratories. 2 A. And had Monsanto worked with IBT and 3 projects prior to the PCB project? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And the initial project consisted of looking 6 at. what, do you look at some rats that were fed PCBs 7 along with other things? 8 A. Help me with the initial -- how far back? 9 Q. When was the first PCB worked done by 10 Industrial Bio-Test? 11 A. Industrual Bio-Test. 12 MR. RUNNING: Are you talking about the 13 toxicity screening done -- 14 MR. CARLSON: Yes. 15 MR. RUNNING: -- before the product was 16 marketed? 17 MR. CARLSON: No, we are talking about the 18 tests that were run, I believe, starting -- it might have 19 started running about 1968. 20 A. Industrial Bio-Test was the laboratory that 21 started the -- I'm going to call preliminary test with 22 PCBs with rats to establish the level, the highest level 23 of which long term studies would be later conducted. 24 Q. And when did that work begin? 25 A. 1968. WATER_PCB-SD0000052511 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 140 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. There was some work that was published by Risebrough in 1968? A. Yes. Q. And was the Risebrough work the work with the perigan (phonetic) falcon? A. No, he -- Dr. Risebrough was interested in the effect of chemicals on birds, but I associate him personally with the brown pelican, off of Southern California. Q. Do you remember when in 1968 his work was published? A. Not exactly, really, about mid-year. Q. And do you remember when in the year your rat studies -- the original rat study was started in 1968? A. About that time. Q. It was Risebrough's work that prompted Monsanto to go ahead and have the work started at IBT? A. I don't know that -- no. Dr. Risebrough's work was considered, of course, and then since we knew about it, the need to start further studies with test animals was being discussed with Monsanto long before that as witnessed by some of the exhibit we've seen here, Dr. Richard referred to that need and also -- it just was almost coincidental that Dr. Risebrough -- and other PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052512 Computer Aiaea rranscripuuu uy aov-l 1 studies were beginning to be published then. 2 Q. And additional studies then were 3 commissioned after the original rat studies, then the 4 long term studies were commissioned? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Were there some studies that were originally7 planned with IBT, for example, looking at the effects of 8 PCBs on fish that would cancel them? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. With regards to birds, what particular bird 11 or birds were looked at by IBT? 12 A. The Leghorn chicken. 13 Q. And when did that work begin? 14 A. About 1969, is the best I recall. 15 MR. CARLSON: Off the record a second. 16 (Off-the-record discussion.) 17 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) I'm sorry for the 18 interruption. The results of the IBT work on the Leghorn 19 chicken were reported back to Monsanto? 20 A. Periodically, yes. 21 Q. And did IBT also look at the effect of 22 certain Aroclors on beagles or some sort of a dog? 23 A. Yes, beagles. 24 Q. And do you recall generally what the results 25 were with regards to the effect of the Aroclors on the PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052513 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 142 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Leghorn chickens? A. Yes, I do. Q. Will you tell me what those were? A. Those studies showed that at ten parts per million in their daily diet, the chickens were affected in that their egg shells of the eggs they laid were thinner than expected than they should have been and that there were some hatchability problems associated with those eggs. And that, as I said, was with Aroclor 1242, which is the lower chlorinated type. Q. With regards to the beagles, what were the findings there? A. There -- the beagles, as I recall, were affected by the higher chlorinated, not the lower chlorinated, at the very high does, the 100 parts per million in their daily diet for the two year period that they were exposed. And, as I recall, they exhibited some difference in weight gain. They were not as heavy as the controls and they had some gastric problems. Q. Was it determined as to which of the kinds of PCBs -- strike that. The dog studies which resulted in the gastric problems, for example, was that an Aroclor -- which Aroclor that was? A. That was the Aroclor 1254 and 1260. Q. With regards to those findings, was a dpdov opDnofl'TMr' efourrp WATER PCB-SD0000052514 0>s ftiucu liaiiov-i kjf /\ u v*. _i_ ^ o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 determination made as to which kind of PCB -- as which of the chlorinated PCBs were causing these problems with the dogs? A. I don't know that I understand your question. Q. Well, in the Aroclor 1254 and the Aroclor 1260, there is a variety of the kind of PCBs that we talked about earlier this morning. There is some with seven chlorine, some with eight chlorines, etcetera. Was there any work done that would identify the particular number of chlorines on the byphenyl, you know, which kind of PCB it was that was causing these problems with the dogs? A. Q. ' There was no such work. Was there any such work done with regards to the Leghorn chickens? A. No. Q. Were youpresent for the entire proceeding in the City of Bloomington litigation and trial? A. Yes. (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 12 was marked) Q. (By Mr. Carlson) I want to ask you to take a look at Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 12, if you would. (Witness took a moment to read the document) A. I have read it. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052515 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 144 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. (By Mr.Carlson) All set. You've had an taunt to read the document? A. Yes. Q. Do you remember this document being made reference to in the City ofBloomington proceeding? A. I do. Q. And who was Don, that letter addressed is to? A. That's Don Gordan, Dr. Gordan. Q. And who is Otis that signed the letter? A. That's Dr. Otis Fancher. Q. Have you discussed the contents of this letter with either of those gentlemen? A. No, sir, Q. Have you discussed with anyone from Industrial Bio-Test a comment in this letter that is his notion, and I'm just referencing the first paragraph about the midpoint through, that much of the data are either fudged or collected with carelessness or incompetence, particularly that date for the supplementary study with 1242. Have you discussed that particular comment of the author with anybody? A. No, sir. The first time I saw this document was at the trial in Bloomington. I reported that I had never seen it before and that's the last I saw of it WATER PCB-SD0000052516 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 145 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 until now. Q. There was a problem with Industrial Bio-Test later on, wasn't there, with regards to some -- I don't know if there's one or more that will be indicted? A. Well, I read in the popular press of the trial it's a place, and it did involve some Monsanto products, not PCBs, and that's all I really know about it. Q. You understand that there was a conviction for fraud by Industrial Bio-Test people with regards to those particular Monsanto products? MR. RUNNING: Are you referring to those particular Monsanto products? MR. CARLSON: The products that were being tested Industrial Bio-Test. MR. RUNNING: Other than PCBs? MR. CARLSON: Yes. A. Well, it was not only Monsanto products but other companies were involved -- Q. (By Mr. Carlson) I see. A. -- yes, I understood that there was a sentencing of that sort. Q. Who is Paul Wright? A. Paul Wright is a toxicologist. Q. Was he an Industrial Bio-Test employee at WATER PCB-SD0000052517 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 146 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that time? A. Yes. Q. And later an Monsanto employee? A. Yes. Q. Did Monsanto use any other companies besides Industrial Bio-Test to do its toxicology studies on PCBs? A. At what point in time? A. In the 1970s. A. No. Q. From -- A. I should make a clarification. Q. Sure. A. There were some fish studies placed with a laboratory in the northeast after Industrial Bio-Test told us that, they just did not have that expertise. Other than that, there were no other studies. Q. Exhibit Number 12 is a copy of the same document that you had an opportunity to review in the City of Bloomington? A. It appears to be, yes. Q. Is there any question in your mind about this being an authentic copy? MR. RUNNING: Well, how could he have a question or an answer if he hadn't seen it before? Q. (By Mr. Carlson) You saw it in the City of WATER PCB-SD0000052518 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 147 1 Bloomington at the case, did you not? 2 A- I saw -- 3 MR. RUNNING: Unless he recognizes the 4 handwriting, I don't see how he can give you any 5 testimony. 6 A. As best as I can recall, this looks very 7 much like the document I saw then. 8 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) And the contents are the 9 same contents that you recall being in that document? 10 A. Yes. It refers to the same topics. 11 MR. RUNNING: Well, I object to asking him 12 if he had seen the document in another trial. That's not 13 an athentication source, and I move to strike the 14 question and answer. 15 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Do you recall this exhibit 16 being introduced as evidence in the Monsanto trial 17 involved in the City of Bloomington? 18 MR. RUNNING: Objection. It's not 19 appropriate of anything. 20 A. Well, I don't know if it was introduced. It 21 was handed to me as an exhibit. I have no other way of 22 determining what you are asking. 23 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Okay. That's all. Thank 24 you. 25 MR. CARLSON: I will offer Exhibit Number WATER PCB-SD0000052519 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 148 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12. (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 13 was marked) Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Mr. Papageorge, I've had marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 13, a document dated December 30, 1968. Would you be kind enough to review this so that you feel comfortable that you know its contents. (Witness took a moment to read the document) A. I have finished reading it. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Is of theexhibit a December 30, 1968 memo to W. A. Kuhn from W. R. Richard? A. Yes. Q. And can you be kind enough to identify for me who W. A. Kuhn was or is? A. Mr. Kuhn at the time was manager of manufacturing, responsible among other units for those that produced PCBs at the Anniston and the Illinois plant. Q. And can you tell me generally the circumstances that came rise to this memo -- let me strike that. Have you seen the memo before? A. Yes, I have. Q. And you've talked to Mr.Richardabout his involvement with the particular aspect of the project? A. Yes, sir. WATER PCB-SD0000052520 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 149 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And can you tell me generally what the purpose of this memo was? A. It's two-fold. One is to inform Mr. Kuhn of the status regarding PCBs and the environment as Dr. Richard knew them. Dr. Richard being the director of research for PCBs, and it was also an attempt on Dr. Richard's part to inform Mr. Kuhn of the steps that Dr. Richard thought were important in addressing, and he's asking for Mr. Kuhn's support in this approach. Q. In the memo, there is a reference on the second page, third to the bottom paragraph in, which Dr. Richard's comment, "I believe we should help our customers dispose of off-grade or non-reworkable Aroclor either by incinerating or by toxic dump." Did I correctly read that, first of all? A. Yes, you did. Q. Am I correct in saying that prior to December 30 of 1968, Monsanto was not helping its customers dispose of off-grade or non-reworkable Aroclor? A. No, that's not quite correct. Q. Okay. I guess -- and I don't- mean to argue with you at all. I guess what comes to mind is if Dr. Richard says we should start helping, we should help our customers dispose of the off-grade and non-reworkable Aroclor? WATER PCB-SD0000052521 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe X. DU 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Was it your understanding from your 3 discussions with him that Dr. Richard wanted to see more 4 work done in that regard? 5 A. Yes, particularly in the area of 6 incineration which was a new concept. The use of toxic 7 dumps under the proper conditions was not a new thought. 8 Q. Okay. Dumps that are -- strike that. Dumps 9 that are appropriate for different kinds of substances 10 have different requirements, I suspect, based on your 11 understanding? 12 A. Certainly. 13 Q. Okay. Currently are there toxic dump sites 14 that are appropriate and legal for handling of PCBs? 15 A. Yes, there are sites, regulated by the 16 Environmental Protection Agency in terms of conditions 17 that are suitable for the disposal of PCBs that are 18 non-liquid solids, rags, dirt, that kind of thing. 19 Q. What about waste water that has PCBs in it? 20 A. To my knowledge, there's no dump, so to 21 speak, authorized to accept water contaminated with PCBs. 22 Q. How -- based on everything you've read, you 23 understand that PCBs are still in machines out in the die 24 cast industry, correct? 25 A. Yes. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052522 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 151 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. How do companies now get rid of their PCBs? A. Incineration is the approved method and there are commercial units proved by EPA to do this. MR. RUNNING: Well, I object. There's confusion in the questions over the standards. You are referring to incineration and you are also referring to PCBs still being in die cast machines and you know the standard. You were talking about apples and oranges. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) At the time Monsanto sold PCB -- strike that. At the time Monsanto sold PCB hydraulic fluid, did Monsanto expect that its customers would have to incinerate its PCB waste fluids? A. . Will you help me with the time period again? Q. Sure. During the time period that Monsanto sold F-9 and 312, okay, those two hydraulic fluids, did Monsanto expect that its customers would have to incinerate its PCB fluid, its waste fluid? A. That's why I asked for the time. Q. Right. A. The technology for incinerating PCBs properly was not developed until 1970, '71. Prior to that, no one, including Monsanto, was in any position to suggest incineration. The only suggestion available then was to dispose of it in a properly authorized chemical landfill. WATER PCB-SD0000052523 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 152 1 Q. Until 1968, properly authorized chemical 2 landfills could receive PCBs material but today those 3 landfills would have to be dug up? 4 MR. RUNNING: Objection unless you specify 5 the concentration. 6 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Go ahead. 7 A. Well, I suspect if a problem is detected 8 that is related to the contents of that landfill and is 9 presumed by the regulators to be due to PCBs, then 10 someone in authority will make a decision regarding what 11 corrective action to take, whether it be digging up or 12 reinforcing the surrounding area with the proper 13 impermeable materials and so on. 14 Q. On the December 30th of '68 memo, the last 15 paragraph, he references that, "We -- I presume we being 16 Monsanto - 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. -- "probably have six months toone year 19 while they fight out the DDT case. I want to use this 20 time to minimize our exposure. We will need your help in 21 setting TSD targets." First of all, did I correctly read 22 that? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And fromworking with Dr.Richard when he 25 said that we probably have six months to one year while WATER PCB-SD0000052524 computer Aiaea irdnscnpciou Aoctiuc 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 they fight out the DDT case, what was he making reference to? A. He was referring to the conditions that existed at the time regarding the emphasis by many groups to see to it that regulations were passed to ban the use of DDT, and Dr. Richard was well aware of all of that and was associating that activity with possible impact on the PCB chemicals. Q. And then when he says I want to use this time to minimize our exposure, what exposure was he talking about? A. Well, again, I have a hard time putting myself in Dr. Richard's shoes. Q. Well, I understand, but you have talked about this subject to him. A. Well, what he's talking about is Monsanto is a producer of PCBs, would be exposed to the same accusations that the DDT manufacturers were exposed to at the time, and Dr. Richard's hope is that he could get enough good scientific data to help him and others make decisions regarding continued use versus discontinued use so that he can minimize the impact on PCBs and their continued use for those purposes that were deemed to be necessary and responsible. Q. From the discussion with him, was he also PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052525 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 154 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 talking about minimizing Monsanto's financial exposure for marketing of PCBs? A. Well, that's certainly part of it. That's always in the picture. Q. Then when he says, "We will need your help in setting TSD targets." What are TSD targets? A. TSD refers to Monsanto's designation of their plant engineering departments. That stands for Technical Services Department. Q. And did Monsanto expect to have a Technical Service Department target for permissible levels in waste water for customers such as die cast companyes. is that the kind of targets we are talking about? A. No, no. These are Monsanto plant groups working on Monsanto plant problems. MR. CARLSON: The record should reflect that we will offer Plaintiff's Exhibit 13 into evidence. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) At a point in time did Monsanto make a decision to stop manufacturing hydraulic fluid for die cast companies which utilized PCBs? A. Yes. Q. And when was that decision made? A. 1970, they began the program. Q. Earlier today, we had talked about some other products which Monsanto discontinued manufacturing WATER PCB-SD0000052526 -r o x. iLCltliJVL A. j/ V/ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 using PCBs. I guess one product I'd like to talk to you about for a moment is Therminol. What is Therminol? A. Therminol is Monsanto's trademark for fluids that it sells to be used as a medium for transferring heat from one source to another. Q. And did Monsanto also decide to stop manufacturing and selling Therminol? A. No. The trademark Therminol is still in use. o. Okay. PC-B Therminol? A. PCB Therminols, yes. Q. When was that decision? A. It was after 1971. The decisionwas made late in 1971. ' Q. The decision to stop manufacturingPCB-base Therminol was because of the potential of the Therminol to contaminate foods? A. That was the principlereason, yes. Q. And at the time that decision was made -- strike that. At the time that you did discontinue manufacturing the Therminols and then selling them, Monsanto advised its customers that it should drain the machines that had Therminols in them? A. Yes. Q. And you provided actually kind of a little PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052527 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 156 1 manual on how to do that properly? 2 A. There was a manual with suggestions. It was 3 not a set of specific instructions because they had to -- 4 suggestions had to be adapted to the specific 5 installation. 6 Q. And you had your customers actually sign for 7 letters showing that they received this information? 8 A. I don't remember that step. Its been a 9 while. 10 Q. All right. Based on Monsanto's 11 understanding of the die cast industry in 1971, it was 12 understood that some PCBs would get into water that would 13 contaminate fish? 14 MR. RUNNING: Could you read that question 15 back? 16 (Reporter read back last question.) 17 MR. RUNNING: Objection. The questions 18 ambiguous and misstates prior testimony. 19 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Is that a fair statement? 20 A. Well, it's almost so. There was some 21 understanding that on occasion, in spite of the good 22 intentions of the user, that material could end up in a 23 situation where eventually it would end up in the 24 environment, yes. 25 Q. And it was understood that that could get nnnov nnnAomTW/^ OffDUTrff WATER PCB-SD0000052528 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 157 1 into a food chain which ultimately could result in human 2 consumption? 3 A. It could, but the intent was to keep the 4 quantity so low that eventually it would degrade, or if 5 parts of the food chain that consumed it, that the amount 6 present would be low enough such that the lifetime of the 7 creature would be such that not enough material would 8 accumulate to create problems. 9 Q. That was the expectation? 10 A. That was an expectation, yes. 11 Q. And did Monsanto internally discuss the 12 concept of biomagnification and biocumulation when 13 looking at the potential of these PCBs getting into the 14 good chaining? 15 A. Certainly. 16 Q. And he -- I don't want to misphrase what you 17 said, but would I be correct in saying that Monsanto's 18 expectation in 1971, was that even if some of the 19 hydraulic fluids were being handled properly, they still 20 could escape and some PCBs could get into the food chain. 21 Would that be a fair statement? 22 A. When we talk of possibilities, we have to 23 follow the premise that anything is possible, and in 24 order to manage this issue responsibly, you got to think 25 of the worse case scenario and work to avoid that WATER PCB-SD0000052529 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 158 1 scenario. 2 Q. And when Monsanto developed a replacement 3 for the PCB hydraulic fluids, is the next fluid that was 4 used the terphenyl? 5 A. It had terphenyls as the fire retardant 6 ingredient. 7 Q. Was the -- there was Pydraul 312a? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. When was the first time the Pydraul 312a was 10 tested for the presence of PCBs? 11 A. I have a hard time remembering the date, 12 about 1972 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. -- is the best of my memory. 15 Q. How long after terphenyls were used as the 16 fire retardant fluid in the Pydraul 312a was it when they 17 were first found to have the PCBs? 18 A. About a year, as best I can tell. 19 Q. Therminol also used the terpheynls? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Okay. How did it happen that Monsanto found 22 that the terphenyls or the hydraulic fluid of the 23 terphenyls also had biphenyls? 24 A. As best I recall, there were studies being 25 made to determine the presence of contaminant chemicals WATER PCB-SD0000052530 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 159 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 in these products, and in that study, the analyst noticed the PCB peeks on his chart. Q. Where were the terphenyls made? A. Anniston, Alabama. Q. In the same equipment that was used to make biphenyls? A. Yes. Q. Was there any problem not having the equipment necessary to look for in the PCB contaminant in the terphenyls in 1971? A. No, no. It was just the thought never occurred to those close to the manufacture of the material that such a contamination was occurring. Q. Your company did represent to the public that the Pydraul 312a did not contain biphenyls, didn't they? A. Yes, that was to indicate it was biphenyls were not added as a known component, so many pounds for every barrel. Q. Well, you didn't tell them that, it could be contaminated with biphenyls either, did you? A. No, because we didn't know it. How could we tell them something we didn't know? Q. What other contaminants were they looking for when they found the biphenyls? WATER PCB-SD0000052531 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 160 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Well, at that time we had an ongoing program from early 1970, to look for chlorinated dibenzodioxins and chlorinated dibenzofurans. That was the program that led to this other discovery. Q. Why was your company looking for furans in the terphenyls? A. Well, we had reports from the group in the Netherlands about furans in PCBs by the European producers, and that stimulated studies on Monsanto's part looking for it in Monsanto's PCBs an extension of that since the chlorine, the hydrogen, and the carbon, and the Oxygen were all present in the terphenyls. The scients -- the chemist looked at the terphenyls to see if any dioxins and furans might be present. Q. If I recall correctly, the wildlife project at Monsanto began in 1968; is that correct? A. I don't know that it was called the wildlife project. This led to the animal studies we talked about. Q. Your review of Aroclors in wildlife began in Monsanto in '68? A. I would suggest it started before that, and Dr. Richard in '68, was summarizing what he knew as of that point in time. Q. Was there an Ad Hoc PCB committee in existence at Monsanto in the 1960s? WATER PCB-SD0000052532 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 161 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And when that was committee formed for the 3 first time that you recall? 4 A. I don'tknow that I ever asked that. 5 question. When I was assigned the manager in 6 environmental control, the committee was in existence and 7 I became its chairman, so I do not know when it started 8 meeting as a group. 9 Q. What was the purpose? 10 A. The purpose was to exchange information 11 gathered by the individuals in the group as it related to 12 their different functions, whether it was an analytical 13 chemist or research chemist or manufacturing manager or 14 marketing person, really it's a case of letting the right 15 hand know what the left hand is doing or hearing. 16 Q. Do you remember who the chairman of the 17 committee was in September of 1969? 18 A. I don't believe there was a person 19 designated as chairman. The group was called for a 20 session whenever someone in that group felt he had 21 something important to share, then he would serve sort of 22 as the organizer of that particular session. 23 Q. Bear with me a second. 24 A. Okay. 25 (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 14 was marked) WATER PCB-SD0000052533 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 162 1 Q. {By Mr. Carlson) I've hadmarked as 2 Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 14, a document, the first page 3 of which appears, I believe, to be authored by Elmer 4 Wheeler. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And addressed to P. B. Hodges with carbons 7 to some other folks? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You've seen the copy of the -- well, first 10 of all, read it over so that you are comfortable that you 11 know what it is. 12 (Witness took a moment to read the document) 13 A. I've read it. 14 Q. (By Mr.Carlson) You've had an opportunity 15 to review Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 14? 16 A. I have. 17 Q. And it is a document that is entitled 18 Minutes of Aroclor Ad Hoc Committee, First Meeting? 19 A. It is. 20 Q. And its dated September 5, 1969? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. This particular Ad Hock Committee met for 23 the first time about nine months after Dr. Richard 24 reported on the wildlife situation? 25 A. Yes. WATER_PCB-SD0000052534 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 163 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And about almost three years after your company was apprised of the PCBs that were found in the environment by Mr. Jensen? A. Yes, sir. Q. And your company set up some some -- or strike that. Your committee set up some objectives, did it not? A. Yes. I, at this point, would like to clarify a point. Q. Sure. A. The Ad Hock Committee I had in mind earlier was a larger groupand consisted not only of these individuals but many many more, marketing people, public relations people. I forget the whole mixture. This particular group was appointed by that larger group to sit down and draft a document that attempts to summarize what was known at the point in time and attempts also to summarize what kinds of actions should Monsanto be considering. This then represents the thinking of these few individuals which was passed on to the bigger group which addressed these points and then developed a program which was slightly instituted, so there are two Ad Hock committees that I, in my own mind, confused. Q. Are there documents, minutes of the larger Ad Hock Committee meetings that are called Ad Hock WATER PCB-SD0000052535 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 164 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Committee meetings? A. There are references to that committee that I personally have made, and starting in 1970, I issued monthly reports on status. Those reports were prepared by the committee by the individuals in the committee. They do not include in their title the referenced Ad Hoc Committee, it's just an environmental -- PCB environmental summary, monthly summary of some such comment, such title. Q. The only committee carrying the name Ad Hock that you are aware of is the committee with the first minutes -- or the first meeting minutes are incorporated in Plaintiff's Exhibit 14? A. (Witness didn't respond to the question.) Q. There may be something else -- A. There is -- there are some -- A. I don't remember seeing another document other than this group calling themselves an Ad Hoc Committee. If there are, I'm certainly willing to be corrected. A. I recall that I personally had referred to the group that worked with me as the PCB Ad Hock Committee, but I do not -- I did not use that as a title for the summary reports I put out. Q. This particular Ad Hock committee does have orilDV OUDnSTTHr. CEPVTn? WATER PCB-SD0000052536 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 165 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 a chairman? A. Yes, it does, that's why this is a different group. Q. That's Mr. Wheeler? A. Mr. Wheeler was asked to chair this small sub-group. Q. And this sub-group agreed on' some objectives? A. That is true. Q. One of the objectives was to permit continued sales and profits of Aroclors and terphenyls, correct? A. Yes. . Q. That's announced objective of the committee that was making a recommendation to the company? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And the second objective was to permit continued development in uses and sales, T presume, of PCBs and Aroclors; is that correct? A. Yes. Q. And the third was to protect the image of organic division and of the corporation, correct? A. Correct. Q. I don't find as a part of this committees objectives reference to finding out whether or not the WATER PCB-SD0000052537 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 166 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PCBs or Aroclors in the environment are causing harm and their uses should be discontinued, that wasn't an objective in this committee, was it? A. Well, it isn't stated om so many words, but it's reflected in number three, and you can't have number one without number three. Q. Number three, you mean the third objective? A. Yes. Q. Protect the image of the organicdivision? A. And of the corporation. Q. How does one protect the image of a division? .A. By acting responsibly. Q. How about with public relations? A. I don't understand that question. Q. In protecting an image of a corporation, one of the things that you company has is a public relation department, right? A. Yes, sir. Q. And that public relations department takes out ads on occasion when it deems appropriate to help protect a company's image? A. On occasion, yes. Q. As a matter of fact the company is involved in doing that right now with regards to the bovine growth WATER PCB-SD0000052538 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 167 1 hormone? 2 MR. RUNNING: I object. This isn't a 3 digression for that purpose. 4 MR. CARLSON: They tie up very carefully. 5 MR. RUNNING: And I also challenge you to 6 identify any ads that were ran on PCBs during the 7 relevant time period, so it's a mischaracterization of 8 the record. 9 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Are you aware of the work 10 that your public relations department is doing on bovine 11 growth? 12 A. I have read some of it just like you have in 13 the public press. 14 Q. And your public relations department 15 develops press releases? 16 A. Certainly. But a press release has to be 17 based on good information, otherwise, it reflects 18 negatively. 19 Q. In the minutes of that meeting, the 20 background discussion of the problems, under number one 21 there's a reference that they should concentrate on the 22 1254 and the 1260, is there not? 23 A. Yes, it is. 24 Q. And that's -- or there's reference made that 25 the 1242 as of that date had not been incriminated. DCPPV PRPnfiTTMfi SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052539 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 right? A. Well, that's paraphrasing what's here -- Q. Right. A. Yes. Q. And then it goes to show the possible reasons that it perhaps hasn't been incriminated? A. Um-hum(affirmative), yes. Q. And there are three that are listed there, a, b, and c, correct? A. That's correct. Q. The last being that, "Unless analytical techniques are performed carefully, the 1242 can be destroyed by oxidation during the analyses." That's one of the things that your committee was aware of? A. True, but thatstatement applies to the other Aroclors as well. It's not unique to 1242, so the analyses must be performed carefully. Q. Is it your comment then that item (c) should not have been a reason that it's possible that the Ardor 1242s had not been incriminated? A. That is my opinion, yes. Q. And with regards to the comments that it may degrade biologically, is it your opinion that, in fact, 1242 was degrading biologically so that tit wasn't being detected in the environment at that time? WATER PCB-SD0000052540 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 169 1 A- That was a considered scientific opinion 2 which was later demonstrated in the laboratory, yes. 3 Q. Which of the different chlorinated biphenyls 4 were degrading out of the 1242? 5 A. Some of the four chlorines and virtually all 6 of the three, two, and one chlorines. 7 Q. The five, six, seen and, I think, there's 8 eight chlorines remained present, were not biodegrading? 9 A. Most them. Some of them did degrade, but 10 not all of them. 11 Q. And those particular -- I don't want to 12 refer to them as higher chlorinated biphenyls -- would be 13 the same higher chlorinated biphenyls found in the the 14 1254 and 1260? 15 A. It would be the same types but in different 16 proportions. 17 Q. Right. And there's reference to the nature 18 in uses of the 1242 minimizing environmental 19 contamination. Was that your impression of why the 20 Aroclor 1242 had not been incriminated as of September 5 21 of 1969? 22 A. That was one of the factors considered. 23 Q. In reviewing the document -- and you've seen 24 this document before, haven't you? 25 A. Yes, I have. WATER PCB-SD0000052541 Computer Aided Transcription by XScnbe i/o 1 Q. Is there any information that is contained 2 in the document that you think is eroneous? That's 3 probably the easiest way of saying it or asking It. 4 MR. RUNNING: Other than item (c) ? 5 MR. CARLSON: Other than item (c) appearing 6 in number one. 7 A. Eroneous at that point in time or in 8 hindsight? 9 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Well, let's do it 10 eroneous at that point in time. 11 A. At that point in time. 12 Q. Sure. 13 A. As I read the document looking for possible 14 eroneous statements in addition to the one I've already 15 indicated, I don't see anything in here that does not fit 16 well into the understanding that existed at that time. 17 Q. Okay. 18 MR. CARLSON: And we will offer Exhibit 19 Number 14, and I think we want to take a little break 20 right now. 21 (At this time, there was a ten minute break in the 22 deposition.) 23 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Before we tookour break, 24 we were talking about the first meeting of the Ad Hoc 25 Committee, and what I'm wondering is, what steps did the WATER PCB-SD0000052542 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 171 1 committee take to achieve the objective to permit 2 continued sales and profits of Aroclors and terphenyls? 3 A. The steps really were many and included such 4 things as establishing which of the PCBs degrade or don't 5 degrade; are there ways to properly prevent the escape to 6 the environment and continue the uses; establishing 7 whether or not the PCBs are harmful even though they are 8 present, do they or do they not cause harm; and this 9 objective was further met by finding different materials 10 that could be used in place of the PCBs and still 11 maintain the sales and profits of that group. 12 Q. I know, but it doesn't say that. It says 13 sales and profits of Aroclors and terphenyls? . 14 A. True. 15 Q. Aroclors are PCBs -- are fluids that have 16 PCBs in them? 17 A. Yes, but you've got to recognize, within 18 Monsanto, that gives a special message that says this 19 business group that has these materials will have its 20 sales and profits. That's what it really means. 21 Q. So it doesn't mean what it says there. It 22 means that they want to continue the sale and profits of 23 that division of Monsanto? 24 A. That's true. That's really the intent of 25 that objective. WATER PCB-SD0000052543 Computer Aiaea Transcription oy Aocaue 1 Q. Okay. When did you first see a copy of this 2 particular committee meeting minutes? 3 A. In January of 1970, when I sat down with Mr. 4 Wheeler and had my tutorial, and he presented me with a 5 file of documents and this was one of them. 6 Q. The minutes are of the Aroclor Ad Hoc 7 Committee. Was the Aroclor work in a particular division 8 of Monsanto? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What division was that? 11 A. It was at that time called the organic 12 chemicals division. 13 Q. If we assume that one of the objectives was, 14 in fact, to permit the continued sales and profits of PCS 15 Aroclors, would you agree with me that at least for the 16 years 1969, the rest of 1969 and 1970, the objectives of 17 that particular committee were met? 18 A. In 1969, it was certainly met. 19 Q. How about 1970? 20 A. But 1970, it was not met. 21 Q. Did you sell -- that is, did the company 22 sell more Aroclors in 1970 than did you in 1969? 23 A. No. In fact, they discontinued sales 24 starting in August of 1970. 25 Q. Were gross sales as Aroclors higher still in PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052544 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 173 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1970 than they were in 1969? A. I'd be very -- I don't remember the numbers. I'd have to see the charts. They are in this one exhibit. Q. Yes. we'll get to that later. A. Okay. Q. On objective number two, "Permit continued development of uses in sales." That's uses in sales of what? A. Of chemicals that would serve the markets that that particular group was assigned. Q. So that it's not topermit the continued development of uses and sales of Aroclors per se? A. Not necessarily. Q. Were you aware of a study either done by or commissioned by one of Monsanto's competitors, Houden, on the effects of PCBs on bluegills? A. I don't associate Houden with PCB studies. I don't know. I'm not aware of it. Q. Are you aware of potent chemical advising customers that you and Houden were buying for in the hydraulic business that at 1.67 parts per million concentrations in water over four days, 100 percent of the bluegills in the study were killed. Do you remember Houden making those kinds of statements about your WATER PCB-SD0000052545 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 174 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 products? A. I don't remember that, but that six or seven parts per million in water not possible. Q. No, no, 1.67. A. 1.67 parts per million. Q. Right. A. That's still not possible. Q. Okay. A. Unless they stirred it like hell. Q. Or if it was bound to dirt in the water? A. Dirt, particles, yes. Q. You've been a spokesman for Monsanto in the press about PCBs, haven't you? A. At times. Q. And on television? A. A few times. Q. Congressional committees? A. Yes, sir. Q. From your own perspective and hindsight, is it your perception that you were asked to take over this function, that is to address the public for Monsanto on PCBs because of actions such as that which appear in the objectives of the Ad Hoc Committee? A. I'm not awear that my participation in that kind of activity stems from anything the Ad Hoc Committee BtJOOV D CT3AO fTTM/1 QWPUTfPl WATER PCB-SD0000052546 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 175 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 might have suggested. It was a natural development of my job in that I became the person in Monsanto that had enough of the broad picture where I could respond to questions that others put together. We didn't design the question, remember, and I was the one that was perceived by Monsanto as being in the best, position to be able to respond to questions that could come from many directions. On the other hand, if it were say a very specific area like medicine. Dr. Kelley would do that, or research chemistry, well. Dr. Richard would do that, and so on. But in the general arena, I was the person that was asked to do that. O, In part in hindsight, is it your understanding that you were selected for that position because of your skills and communication? A. I don't know that I had any particular skills or training. Q. Well, but the image that you projected. A. That I am in no position to judge. I don't know. Q. Okay. Other than testifying for Monsanto and review Monsanto litigation and PCBs, do you do anything for Monsanto now? A. No. MR. RUNNING: Well, he's retired. WATER PCB-SD0000052547 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 176 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. CARLSON: Yeah, I understand. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) But you are being paid by Monsanto to do this work? A. Right. Matters of this nature, yes. Q. Did your company in 1969, conduct an economic analysis of the effect of the loss of PCB business on Monsanto? A. In 1969? Q. Yes. A. Well, yes. Those estimates weretypical of the kinds of estimates made for virtually every business group in Monsanto whenever a situation is undergoing some change, so, yes, there were some estimates in 1969 and subsequent to that. It was a continual review of where the product lines stood. (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 15 was marked) Q. (By Mr. Carlson) I'veprovided you with Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 15, and would you be kind enough to review that document for us? (Witness took a moment to read the document) A. I've finished reading it. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Would you be kind enough to tell us what Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 15 is? A. This is a summary prepared for a presentation to a top Monsanto committee consisting of WATER PCB-SD0000052548 compucer niaea uaasctipcion uy Ao^auc j->< 1 the top officials of Monsanto, and there's a summary of 2 the information regarding PCBs in the environment known 3 to Monsanto as of the date, October '69, and ends up with 4 some thoughts regarding what actions should be considered 5 to address this problem. 6 Q. The problem is stated to be contamination of 7 ecosystem with polychlorinated biphenyls or PCBs? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. And under the problem, definition, and 10 timing, the last sentence of that paragraph references 11 Monsanto confirming PCBs in mid-1969. I presume that's 12 confirming PCBs that were present in the environment? 13 A. That's part of it, yes, confirming PCBs 14 present in samples, some of them coming from the 15 environment. 16 Q. And who at Monsanto did that work? 17 A. That was done in Dr. Robert Keller's 18 laboratory, supervised primarily by Dr. Scott Tucker. 19 Q. Did your chemists go over to Sweden and 20 actually work with either Dr. Whitmark or Mr.Jensen? 21 A. They did not actually work withthem, they 22 discussed procedures with them. 23 Q. And the problem in ithe summary is stated to 24 be a world wide ecological problem? 25 A. Yes. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052549 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 178 1 Q. And based on your understanding as ofwhat 2 was occurring at that time, it was a world wide 3 ecological problem, correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. On the second page there is a heading Effect 6 on Monsanto. 7 A. I see that. 8 Q. And under number one, the subject looked at 9 is the business potential at stake on a world-wide basis? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And apparently this was looked at in two 12 areas, in fluids and plasticizers, correct? 13 A. Corrects. 14 Q. Fluids consisted of, amongst other things, 15 the hydraulic fluids 312 and F-9? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And at that time -- I guess I need some help 18 in understanding this -- were you manufacturing 70 19 million pounds a year of fluids, is that how that reads? 20 A. Well, we were manufacturing 70 million 21 pounds of fluids, but some of those pounds were not PCBs, 22 they were blends, if you remember, it was like in 23 Pydraul. 24 Q. Okay. And gross sales of fluids were 16 25 million? DPDOV OffDnP'T'TTJC srrvtcp: WATER_PCB-SD0000052550 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 179 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yes. Q. And is that in one year? A. Yes. Q. With a gross profit in one year of six to eight million? A. That is correct. Q. I'm not too sure we've really defined what plasticizers are very well for the folks that may have the opportunity to view this deposition. What are plasticizers? A. Chemically, plasticizers are materials that are added to plastics to make them flexible, pliable, so they are not brittle, like the oldtime phonograph records. In Monsanto, the PCB use described as plasticizer use, in my opinion, is easier to understand if you call it the miscellaneous use other than the industrial fluids uses. Q. I don't want to go back to it unless we have to, but in one of the previous documents we looked at, I think you may recall that there is reference to a million pounds of PCBs in highway paint that was being abraded into the environment; do you remember that? A. I recall that, yes. Q. Would those be PCBs that were in the plasticizer group? WATER PCB-SD0000052551 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 180 1 A. Yes. ' 2 Q. Is the molecular structure the same -- PCB? 3 A. Same PCB mixtures, yes. 4 Q. And then on the Effect of Monsanto and item 5 number two, it references legal responsibility; do you 6 see that? 7 A. I see that. 8 Q. What does that make reference to? 9 A. The potential for some legal action on 10 somebody's part regarding the use of PCBs and 11 consequences of that use. 12 Q. And then there is reference to the public 13 image? . 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And the last is the effect on other product 16 areas. Can you tell me what was meant by that? 17 A. In a company likeMonsanto,which has 18 thousands of products to sell, its customers, in most 19 cases, buy more than one product. So if there is 20 dissatisfaction with Monsanto regarding one product, it 21 could reflect in the purchase of additional products, or 22 many times the arrangements are combined -- let's call i 23 package -- so many pounds of this and so many pounds of 24 that, and if PCBs are part of that package, it could 25 impact the other products. WATER PCB-SD0000052552 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 181 1 Q. From that standpoint, was it important to 2 Monsanto to have an orderly transition from PCB products 3 to non-PCB -- I'm talking about hydraulic fluids -- from 4 PCB hydraulic fluids to non-PCB hydraulic fluids so that 5 these other products wouldn't be affected? 6 A. Well, that's one consideration. 7 Q. And on the third page, there is a heading 8 Main Sources of Pollution, correct? 9 A. I see that. 10 Q. And about the middle of the third sentence 11 reference is made to industrial fluids, correct? 12 A. There is that reference, but it refers to 13 the use of Aroclor 1254 and 60 in fluids. 14 Q. The reference to 1254 and 1260 was because 15 of the -- strike that. Let's go back and talk a little 16 bit about finding 1254 and 1260 in the environment. When 17 that analysis was performed by Monsanto looking for PCBs 18 in the environment, did they look for, for example, 1254? 19 Q. No, they were looking for PCBs depending on 20 the chart that was printed by the instrument, they would 21 then sit down and identify which of the commercial 22 mixtures is this more closely resemble, and that's when 23 the chemist arrives at the decision this looks like 24 Aroclor 1254. It might have been Kanechlor 500, but it 25 looks like Aroclor 1254. WATER PCB-SD0000052553 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 182 1 MR. RUNNING: Make sure to explain what 2 Kanechlor 500 is. 3 A. Oh, I'm sorry. 4 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Goahead. 5 A. Kanechlor 500 is a trademark of the Japanese I 6 maker of PCBs. 7 Q. Okay. Did they manufacture pursuant to 8 Monsanto license at some point? 9 A. No. 10 Q. As you understand the analytical techniques 11 that were in use at that time, if 1242 is present in the 12 environment but the lower chlorinated biphenyls have 13 degraded leaving higher chlorinated ones present, is that 14 going to be detected when a PCB analysis is made? 15 A. Will what be detected, the degradation be 16 detected? 17 Q. No, the higher chlorinated biphenyls are 18 residual from 1242. 19 A. If they are present, they will be detected, 20 yes. 21 Q. Will that detection look just like a 1260 or 22 a 1254? 23 A. Not just like, it will more closely resemble 24 a 1254 than it does a 1242. 25 Q. Okay. WATER PCB-SD0000052554 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 183 1 A. Its loss that 1242 image, it's shifted. 2 Q. So when in analyzing for PCBs and if the 3 peek looks like 1254, it could be, in some instances, 4 that it is residual of partially degraded 1242: would 5 that be a fair statement? 6 A. It could be. 7 Q. And then under Possible Control of 8 Contamination, it references again, amongst other things, 9 industrial fluids, does it not? 10 A. Yes, it does. 11 Q. And I guess in all fairness I should read 12 the entire sentence. "Industrial fluids, plastics, 13 coatings, and adhesives are very difficult, if not 14 impossible to control. Substitute products needed." Did 15 I fairly read that sentence? 16 A. You read that correctly. 17 Q. And the particular Executive Summary 18 references industrial fluids are very difficult, if not 19 impossible to control. Does that include hydraulic 20 fluids in die cast companies? 21 A. That's one of the industrial fluids, yes. 22 But you notice the spread of degree of ability to control 23 from the difficult to the impossible in that particular 24 grouping. 25 Q. I understand. Very difficult if not WATER PCB-SD0000052555 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 184 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 impossible? A. Exactly. It's a mixture of degrees of difficulty and control. Q. Where would you put it on the continuum, would you put hydraulic fluids at the very difficult or if the not impossible. A. Oh, I would call it -- I wouldn't even use very. I would say it's difficult but achievable. Q. Using special techniques? A. Not special techniques. It's really a matter of the boss putting emphasis and getting support from his bosses to get people and money to do what is necessary. You don't need new technology or new techniques. It's all available. Q. Yes. I guess that's a fair statement. If he was perceived to take these additional steps to control the PCBs, technology was there to do it? A. Certainly. Q. Okay. For example, you haddiscussed earlier the closed loop system that you had referenced in one of your memorandum, do you remember that? A. Yes. Q. That would be one of the ways that could be done? A. Well, we would have toagree on the m rsirT / t? WATER PCB-SD0000052556 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 185 1 definition of close loop, the expression close loop. As 2 we use it for this particular program was to define the 3 whole process of the creation of the PCB, the shipment of 4 it, the use by the customer, the eventual use by the 5 final consumer and the control throughout all of this to 6 keep it from getting away into the environment, knowing 7 that once in a while it's going happen, but keep that to 8 a minimum as much as you can, and if there is anything 9 that can't be used any longer, dispose of it properly. 10 That's what we meant by closing the loop from beginning 11 to end. 12 Q. Disposing of it properly has shifted 13 meanings over the years if we look back from 1968 to 14 1988, hasn't it? 15 A. Certainly it has brought about by a better 16 understanding and by new technology. Like incineration, 17 new technology wasn't available before. 18 Q. I'd like to discuss with you just a 19 second -- I'm going to shift gears and go back to 20 manufacturing of PCBs in Anniston. 21 MR. RUNNING: Don, we are right at 5:00. I 22 don't want to go much after 5:00. 23 MR. CARLSON: Okay. Let me just get this 24 and then we'll be all right. 25 MR. RUNNING: Okay. WATER PCB-SD0000052557 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 186 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Thatmanufacturingprocess was in an outdoor facility, wasn't it? A. Yes. Q. And if there were leaks in the system of PCBs, it would get on to the ground? A. Well, not always. Q. But it could? A. Let me describe. Thebottom levelwas a concrete floor. Q. Okay. A. The areas surrounding that concrete floor was crushed rock. Q. All right. A. And, of course, the road beds and all around it were asphalt covered, and it gives you an idea of what it looked like. The structure is steel. Q. Right. A. And the only facility in that total structure that was covered was the control room which was about the size of this room here. Q. 15 by 20 or so? A. Roughly. So enough to have some instruments and a table, a bench, and chairs in the middle. MR. RUNNING: Mr. Papageorge, when you said covered, do you meaning enclosed? WATER PCB-SD0000052558 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 187 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. It was a building, a little building with a roof over it, and it had some windows and a door and an air conditioner to ventilate, yes. It was the only closed structure, but there were no PCBs in that structure. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) No. But when you did have leaks in your system, PCBs would get onto your own facility onto the crushed rock and under the asphalt? A. Eventually it would fall on the grating and run down the steel columns sometime if they over did it or on to the concrete floor, and if it wasn't cleaned up quickly, it would work its way over into the crushed rock. Q. And on occasions, the rain water might carry the PCBs a little bit? A. That was a possibility that, always existed. Q. But back in the '60s, Monsanto didn't believe that you were damaging the environment by handling PCBs in that way, would you? A. No, but I don't want to give you the impression there was a lot of this oil around. It's very similar, like I said earlier, the oil spot underneath your car, if your cars are like mine. Q. What did you do with the larger spills, because you did have larger spills, didn't you? WATER PCB-SD0000052559 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 188 1 A. Yes. Oh, we take quick action then. We 2 sawdust or something or sand or something to absorb it, 3 rags if possible, whatever was handy to keep it from 4 getting too far. 5 Q. What did you do with those rags? 6 A. Put them in Monsanto's landfill. 7 Q. What ever happened to that landfill? 8 A. still there. 9 Q. Is it covered over? 10 A. Well, the old parts are, of course, covered. 11 But there is still an active part that's still -- they 12 are still putting material in it. 13 Q, What are they putting in there now? 14 A. What ever waste the Anniston plant is still 15 producing. 16 Q. They are not putting any PCBs in there 17 anymore, are they? 18 A. No to my knowledge, no. 19 Q. They've covered over the PCBs, haven't they? 20 A. Yes. 21 MR. CARLSON: Okay. We'll start again 22 tomorrow. 23 (The deposition will continue tomorrow) 24 25 WATER PCB-SD0000052560 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 189 1 2 CONTINUATION OF DIRECT EXAMINATION 3 QUESTIONS BY MR. CARLSON: 4 Q. Good morning,sir. 5 A. Good morning. 6 Q. You had a good night sleep? 7 A. Oh, yes. 8 Q. Before we went on the record this morning, 9 you had an opportunity to review some of the exhibits 10 that I'd like to talk to you about, did you not? 11 A. I did. 12 (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 16 was marked.) 13 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) And if you would be kind 14 enough to turn to Exhibit 16, and identify that for me. 15 A. This is a copy of a Monsanto memorandum 16 addressed to W. R. Richard and prepared by C-umming Paton, 17 and it's dated June 18, 1968. 18 Q. Have you seen this document before? 19 A. I don't recall ever seeing this. 20 MR. RUNNING: Mr. Papageorge, just so you 21 know, when he asks you to identify a document, you 22 shouldn't just read off the document. He's asking if you 23 know what the document is from personal knowledge. 24 A. Oh, I didn't understand the question. 25 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) No, you understood it WATER PCB-SD0000052561 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 190 1 right the first time. that's what I meant to do the 2 first time and now I'm going to ask you just general 3 questions about it, but that's fine. 4 MR. RUNNING: Well, I object to 5 identification if it just means reading as we go into 6 that, but go ahead. 7 MR. CARLSON: Somebody's got to do it. 8 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) In any event, it is a 9 document of June 18, 1968, is it not? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And this concerns some work that was being 12 done by the U.S. Bureau of Commercial Fisheries? 13 MR. RUNNING: Again, foundation objection. 14 You haven't established that he had reviewed this 15 document while he worked at Monsanto or used it. 16 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Is that true? 17 A. It refers to a study underway. 18 Q. During the course of your work with PCBs, 19 did you find that this work was being done by the U.S. 20 Bureau of Commercial Fisheries? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And the work was going on about that time in 23 June of 1968? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Did you talk with any of the folks at the WATER PCB-SD0000052562 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 191 1 U.S. Bureau of Commercial Fisheries that were doing the 2 work? 3 A. Not at this particular laboratory, no. 4 Q. Okay. But it is under yourunderstanding 5 that the Bureau of Commercial Fisheries in 1968, was 6 looking for PCBs in Lake Michigan? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Did they find it? 9 A. Yes. 10 MR. CARLSON: We'll offer Exhibit Number 16. 11 12 Don. MR. RUNNING: My position remains unchanged, 13 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Well, why don't .we back up 14 again: Take a look at Number 16 again. This particular 15 document was authored by who? 16 A. Cumming Paton, P-a-t-o-n. 17 Q. And who is Cumming Paton? 18 A. At that time. Dr. Paton was the technical 19 individual located in a marketing department that sold 20 plasticizers. 21 Q. Okay. And we previously identified Dr. 22 Richard, did we not? 23 A. Yes, we did. 24 Q. And is this the kind of memo that you would 25 expect Cumming Paton to send to Dr. Richard concerning WATER PCB-SD0000052563 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 192 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PCB activity? MR. RUNNING: Don, just to cut this short, we won't object to this document. My only objection is that you not ask the witness not to identify the document just by reading it when he didn't have any involvement with it other than just -- MR. CARLSON: Okay. MR. RUNNING: -- looking at it today. but we don't object to this document. MR. RUNNING: I didn't think you did. (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 17 was marked) Q. (By Mr. Carlson) If you would also be kind enough to look at Exhibit. 17. A. I have it. Q. And this is a memo from yourself? A. Yes. Q. And the memo is directed to Mr. Bergen, and I'm not sure -- is it Mr. or Mrs. Springgate? MR. RUNNING: Again, Don, I think you should ask if he's ever seen it before today. MR. CARLSON: I hope he's seen it, he wrote it. MR. RUNNING: I'm sorry, but I do think you need to lay the foundation. His name is typed on it and I'm 99.99 percent sure that you are right and he wrote WATER PCB-SD0000052564 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 it, but lay the proper foundation question before, has he seen it before, has he authored it. MR. CARLSON: I did ask him if he authored it. MR. RUNNING: Oh, I'm sorry. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) I think I asked you if you authored that. A. I don't recall that, but I did author it. Q. Okay. And what I was trying to find out is who is J. E. Springgate. A. Mr. Springgate at that time was the business director of the Plasticizer Business Group. Q. And what position did H. S. Bergen hold at that time? A. Mr. Bergen was the business director of the functional Fluids' Business Group. Q. And the -- if you'd take a look at the last point on the first page, there was reference to a Congressman Ryan, is there not? A. Yes, there is. Q. Did you personally talk to Congressman Ryan about PCB problems in the environment? A. No, I did not. Q. Did you ever review any requests by Congressman Ryan for Monsanto customer lists of PCB WATER PCB-SD0000052565 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 194 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 products. A. I saw copies of correspondence from Congressman Ryan's office to Monsanto representatives in which that request was included. Q. Did Monsanto ever provide Congressman Ryan with PCB customer lists? A. No. MR. CARLSON: We'll offer Exhibit Number 17. (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 18 was marked) Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Would you then turn to Exhibit 18, which, I believe, you have in front of you? A. I have it. Q. And this is a memo dated July 15 of 1977? A. That's what it says. Q. And at least on the document it indicates it. was authored by Paul Wright? MR. RUNNING: Objection, lack of foundation. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Go ahead. A. Yes. Q. Have you seen this particular document. before? A. This is the first time I've seen this. Q. Have you talked to Paul Wright about, his observations of the way IBT did its work when he was with that, company? WATER PCB-SD0000052566 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 195 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. I did not. Q. To your knowledge, did anyone in your company talk to Paul Wright about that particular subject? A. Q. I do not know. Were you ever aware that Mr. Wright was of the opinion that management practices at IBT were not the type that he approved of? A. I was not aware of that. Q. And were you ever aware that, in his opinion, that the animal care and record keeping practices were minimal at IBT? A. I was never aware Of that. (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 19 was marked) Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Okay. If you would then turn to Exhibit Number 19. And this document -- first of all, it's on a Monsanto sales call report form? A. Yes. Q. Have you seen this particular document before? A. Never. Q. Directing yourattention to the bottom portion. Attention Jerry Davidson, do you see the area? A. I see that. Q. And you've had a chance to read this over? WATER PCB-SD0000052567 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe i.?o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yes. Q. And there's an inquiry being made about the possibility of reclaiming Pydraul fluids as Prestolite? A. That's what's indicated, yes. Q. And then on the bottom of the memo there is a handwritten note apparently signed by Jerry? A. Yes. Q. Who was Jerry Davidson? A. At that time, he was the technical representative in the marketing department located in St. Louis for the group that was responsible for the marketing of Pydrauls. Q. In the question to Jerry Davidson, there was an indication that Prestolite was using about a drum a week of their Pydraul? A. Yes. Q. And Jerry Davidson replied that that's a rather small usage to consider for reclamation? Q. That's what he indicates, yes. Q. And in your opinion, was a drum a week a rather small amount to consider for a reclamation project? MR. RUNNING: I object to that unless you read the rest of the handwritten comment. There is a comment, unless there is a pollution probably. I don't PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER_PCB-SD0000052568 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 197 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 think you are reading it in context. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Go ahead. A. The amount that is reasonable for reclamation depends really on the purpose for reclamation. The degree of contamination and the availability of techniques for reclaiming which go back to the type of contamination that's present in that material. Q. How would you define a die cast company pollution problem in 1972, the date of this particular document, I guess, so do it as of May of 1972. A. . 1972. MR. RUNNING: How he would define a die cast company pollution problem? MR. CARLSON: That's right. MR. RUNNING: Objection. The questions ambiguous, I mean, what problem, what plant? MR. CARLSON: Well, Mr. Davidson indicated that unless there was a pollution problem. I'd like to know what Monsanto considered a pollution problem to be. MR. RUNNING: He says unless they have a pollution problem. MR. CARLSON: That's right. I want to know what a pollution problem is according to Monsanto. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Go ahead. WATER PCB-SD0000052569 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 198 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Well, an obvious one, of course, is knowledge by Monsanto representatives, that the customer having this material on hand is dumping it down the sewer, that kind of problem. It's a straight discharge, or it's choosing to ignore the release to the sewer without taking steps to contain it, that sort of thing, so if that kind of problem exists, yes, let's try to reclaim the material rather than dump it down the sewer. Q. With regards to material that may go down the sewer along with other material, in what concentrations would you consider to be a pollution problem back in May of *72? MR. RUNNING: Objection, its been asked and answered. A. In May of '72, there was no number that we could give anyone including Monsanto other than the ten parts per billion that we talked about yesterday in the waste waters leaving the plant. The advice and strong advice at that that we gave our customers don't knowingly release it into the environment which includes a sewer. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) And you would then go back to your ten part per billion standard? A. Yes. Q. In reviewing some of your company's documents, I found some material, for example, answers WATER PCB-SD0000052570 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that salespeople can give to PCB questions if customers raise them. Do you remember seeing documents of that kind? A. Yes, I do. Q. I don't recall ever seeing any information regarding the ten part with per billion standard in any Monsanto directive salespeople. Do you ever recall seeing any such information in a sales director to the sales force? A. I know that that information was passed on to them during their training sessions and during their frequent visits back to the home office to touch base with those of us involved with this problem, so it was done person to person. I don't -- it was certainly available in print, but at the moment, I don't recall any specific piece of paper that was passed onto a marketing person. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I just don't remember it. MR. CARLSON: Is that the last one you have that's been numbered? MR. RUNNING: No, we've got 20 and 21 still. MR. CARLSON: Okay. (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 20 was marked) Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Would you be kind enough to take a look at Exhibit 20 for me? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052571 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 200 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. I have reviewed it. Q. And Exhibit 20 -- have you seen this particular document before? A. I have not. Q. The face page or the cover page is apparently from an A. J. Koenig? A. Yes. Q. And who is A. J. Koenig? A. Mr. Koenig was an accountant that worked with the function of Fluids' Business Group. Q. And it was directed to a W. R. Corey? A. Yes. Q. And who was W. R. Corey? A. At that time, Mr. Corey was responsible for administrative activities associated with several business groups, one of them being the function of Fluids' Group. Q. If youwould turn to Schedule A, that's entitled Specialty Products Group, World-Wide Summary - PCB/PCP Sales and Gross Profit, 1970 and 1971 actual? A. I see that, yes. Q. And for PCBs, there is a listing for industrial fluids? A. Yes. Q. And can you tell me in salesdollars of WATER PCB-SD0000052572 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 201 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 industrial fluids what the sales were in 1970, for PCB industrial fluids? A. It's not a very clear print, but it appears to be -- Q. A. No, neither is mine. -- a 216, and I don't know if those are 88s or 99s or 00s. Q. What are you reading? MR. RUNNING: He's looking at the pounds column. MR. CARLSON*: Okay. A. I'm sorry. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Take a look at the next column over. ' A. I'm sorry. It looks like 39, and the title of the top of that column has an M without a bar over it which tells me that's in thousands. Q. So you believe that the total PCB sales of your company in 1970 were $390,000? A. No, it looks like a 5390. Q. Okay. So it would be $5,390,000. A. Yes. Q. And then the dollar sales of the PCB industrial fluids in 1971 was how much? A. It's $2,076,000. DUDDV D UDADl'TMr: CPPVTr'TT WATER PCB-SD0000052573 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 202 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Okay. Thank you. MR. CARLSON: We'll be offering Exhibit 20. We can go on to the next one. (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 21 was marked) Q. (By Mr. Carlson) And if you would be kind enough to take a look at Exhibit 21 for me. It appears to be a memo from yourself dated May 27, 1970; is that correct? A. That is correct. Q. Did you write the memo? A. Yes. ` Q. The memo again was to Bergen and Springgate who we previously identified? . A. Yes. Q. And was it your impression in May of 1970, that in all probability in the Netherlands and Sweden, PCBs would be bannedd? A. Well, it's banned or regulated. Q. Okay. And was that your impression then? A. Yes. Q. And then on thebottom, youindicate that Pydraul labels will not be changed since the product would be reformulated? A. Yes, just like we discussed yesterday. Q. Right. Who drafted the Pydraul sticker that WATER PCB-SD0000052574 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 203 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 was used in -- sometime, apparently, in 1970, for 312 and F-9 fluids? MR. RUNNING: Environmentally? MR. CARLSON: Yes. A. Just the environmental statement? Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Yes. A. I was the originator of the draft statement and it was reviewed by all of the members of the Ad Hok Committee that I had referred to earlier, and with their inputs I revised it and ended up with the final paragraph that was used. ` (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 22 was marked) Q. (By Mr. Carlson) And I'd like to have you review Plaintiff's exhibit 22, if you would, and familiarize yourself with it. A. I'm ready. Q. Mr. Papageorge, you've he had an opportunity to review Plaintiff's Exhibit 23, have you not? MR. RUNNING: 22? A. 22. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) 22, I'm sorry. A. Yes, I have. Q. I got ahead of myself. And it is a document dated December 8, 1981 (sic 1971)? MR. RUNNING: Objection, lack of foundation. BOBOV -D Crj/-\n mTXTP C? t?T3 TTY* T? WATER PCB-SD0000052575 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 204 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 You haven't established that he reviewed this document at the time he was employed by Monsanto. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Is that true? A. It includes a memorandum dated December 8, but there are two more documents in that -- Q. Attachments to it. A. -- attached. Well, one doesn't appear to me to even be related, but -- Q. Which one? A. It's the one dated December 22, 1971, the last page in the exhibit*. MR. RUNNING: There are several documents in this exhibit. MR. CARLSON: Yes. I understand that. And I think maybe for the purposes, then, of indentifying them, on the bottom right of each of each of the pages, there is an STR number, is there not? A. I see that, yes. Q. And do those numbers orwould you confirm that those numbers rung consecutively from 001816 through 001834? MR. RUNNING: The fact that they are consecutive doesn't mean they are the same documents. MR. CARLSON: No, I understand that. I just -- because they've all been put together and WATER PCB-SD0000052576 v^OflipU Ccf /\j.c*e<u uausci n/,n/u uj <A \* S 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 presented to us in a package. A. Well, those SIR numbers do run consectutively as you mentioned. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Okay. Who was T. L. Gossage? A. Mr. Gossage was the marketing director for the business group that marketed industrial hydraulic fluids. Q. Have you seen this document before? A. No, sir. Q. On the second page, would you be kind enough to refer to the section relating to General Motors? ' A. I see it. Q. And it is indicated in the document that General Motors was going to drain and flush all the PC-B containing fluids from their machines and refill with new product, does it not? A. That's what it indicates. MR. RUNNING: I'll object to asking him just to read the document particularly since he hasn't seen it before. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) And were you aware at any time during the course of your work t Monsanto that that is what General Motors was going to do? A. Eventually I was made aware of it, yes. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052577 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 206 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And according to this particular memorandum, your company was aware of this back in December of 1971? A. Apparently so. MR. RUNNING: And stipulate that's what the document says. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) And in your personal opinion, when General otors made that decision or when you found out about it, did you think that was the right decision? A. I don't know if it's a matter of right or wrong. It's a way to approach a problem and the management at Chevrolet chose that route. Q. And at some time during the course of your work at Monsanto did you become aware of the fact that your company was considering offering to incinerate General Motors PCB Pydraul hydraulic fluid free of charge? A. I personally have never heard that expression, free of charge. Q. What was your understanding of the conditions offered to General Motors for incineration of its PCB fluids? A. I was not aware of any special condition offered to anybody including General Motors. Q. Do you know if general motors had to pay for PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052578 nxuCvi i. i. auo vi. vn *> jt no ov / 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 incineration of PCB fluids? A. I do not. Q. And the document alsoreferencesJohnson Motors as the second item on the second page, does it not? A. I see that, yes. Q. And at some time during the course of your work at Monsanto, were you aware that Johnson motors was experiencing a PCB problem? A. No. This refers to a phosphate problem. Q. Well, if you look -- no, if you look in the middle -- A A phenolic problem. Q. No. If you look in the center it says, "We have gone to them and suggested they move to our straight phosphate ester to avoid PCB problems." A. To avoid. Q. Right. A. That doesn't mean they hadthem. Q. I see. What kind ofproblems did your company think they may have been having? MR. RUNNING: Objection, lack of foundation. You haven't established that he knew what was being referenced here or that he was involved in any such discussions. You are aking him to speculate about a PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052579 Computer Aided Transcription oy XScnoe <4 O 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 document he hasn't seen before today. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Go ahead. - A. The intent was to follow-up on our warning letters and our discussions with Johnson motors and to frankly offer them an alternate way to still use safe hydraulic fluids and not have to cope with a PCB potential problem. Q. Were you aware that Monsanto had calculated different gross profits to Monsanto for sales of hydraulic fluids under the three conditions referenced on Appendix D starting STR document 001822 and running through 1824? A. I'm not aware of the specific activity. I'm aware that that's a typical study that's made from all products in Monsanto and all conditions and the various cases were reviewed and management makes its decisions that way. Q. And for hydraulic fluids, did that include calculating cost to Monsanto of taking back the fluid free of charge from the customer? A. Well, that's a condition that should be considered. Not being involved, I can only go by what I read here. Q. Okay. MR. CARLSON: We'll be offering Exhibit 22. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052580 V-OiUpUCdl Aiucu j 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 23 was marked) (Witness took a moment to read the document) A. I have finished reading it. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) You have had an opportunity to review Plaintiff's Exhibit 23, have you? A. Yes, I have. Q. Have you seen this document before? A. No, sir, Q. Were you aware that Westinghouse was preparing an Inerteen and Environmental Contamination Statement in Septbember bf 1968? A. No, I was not. Q. In this particular document, there is a reference to Monsanto having arranged for return of Inerteen about in the center of the page, is there not? A. Yes. Q. And you were aware of that practice? A. Yes. MR. RUNNING: Describe Inerteen. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) That's right. You were. A. Yes. Q. And that was worked out with Westinghouse Electric? A. Q. And others, yes. And then September of 1968, what was PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052581 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 210 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Monsanto doing with the scrap Inerteen? A. They were treating it to make it useful in other PCB uses other than the dielectric use which is the most demanding in terms of superior quality. Q. On the bottom of the first paragraph, there is reference to, tight control on the usage and disposal of Inerteen must be exercised. As you and I are talking here today, you tell me as of September of 1968, what tight control of disposal of Inerteen would mean. A. That would include disposal in authorized landfills at that time. ` Q. Were there landfills, to your knowledge, that were specifically authorized to accept PCBs? A. PCBs as an industrial chemical, yes, but not as specifically PCBs, Q. In September of 1968, was it your understanding that a landfill that could accept industrial chemicals could accept PCBs? A. Yes. Q. Assuming that the label -- strike that. Assuming that the Inerteen Contamination Statement was published by Westinghouse in September of 1968, would you agree with Westinghouse's decision to do so at that time? MR. RUNNING: Assuming it was published to whom? PERRV R EPORTTNC SRRVTCK WATER PCB-SD0000052582 Computer Aiaea Transcription oy Aacnoe ,11 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. CARLSON: To its customers. A. Well, sir, I don't know that this went to the customers, but it might have been an in-house document. Q. {By Mr. Carlson) Okay. How would the customers then know to send scrap to the Monsanto Company? A. Well, the individuals within Westinghouse would see this and then relay that. Q. Would you agree even as an in-house memorandum that this type of information should have been made known? A. Well, this is a -- yes, this is a good document. Q. And is it the kind of information that you believe Inerteen customers -- or strike that. That companies that had products that contained Inerteen should be aware of as of September of '68? A. Well, this is only added really to the higher chlorinated biphenyls. Some of the Inerteen products contain such PCBs, and although in 1968, the information was very sketchy, it appears to me that Westinghouse chose to proceed as though it was not questionable. In other words, the worse case situation, so they chose to communicate in this fashion. As to PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052583 S-- V1U^ U V ^ i. -J 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 whether all Inerteen customers should get it, that's really a Westinghouse decision. I can't speak for them in their products and their customers. Q. Under what circumstances do you believe that a Westinghouse customer should not receive that information in September of '68? A. Well, I do not know personally everything involved with the use of Inerteen and transformers, but I can visualize a situation where a Westinghouse transformer is manufactured by Westinghouse, filled with a PCB fluid, shipped to the customer, and Westinghouse service organization is the one that services that unit when it needs anything. This places all of the activity involved with that unit virtually in Westinghouse's area of responsibility and they were capable of coping with it. So that's one case where the customer would probably be told call us and we'll take care of things. Q. In the situation you gave me, the PCBs would be in a sealed container? A. Oh, yes. These are all sealed steel containers. Q. Which is somewhat different than hydraulic fluid that can leak through gaskets and pumps, correct? A. Yes. Q. Any other circumstances in which youthink a PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052584 Compucer Aiaea rranscnpcion oy Aocnoe 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Westinghouse customer shouldn't -- it wouldn't be appropriate to give a Westinghouse customer the information obtained on Exhibit 23? MR. RUNNING: I object. He's already answered your question and he's referred to the fact that the information on higher chlorinated Aroclors was partially in '68. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) We were talking about -- do you remember the question? A. I'm confused right now. Q. Okay. You just gave me one example of a situation in which it may not be appropriate for a Westinghouse customer to receive the Inerteen environmental contamination statement. What I'm trying to find out is, are there any other types of circumstance where you think it would be inappropriate for a Westinghouse customer to receive this information? MR. RUNNING: Same objection. I think he's already answered your question. A. I don't know. You use the word inappropriate. I would suggest that it would not necessarily be helpful to say, a manager of a Holiday Inn who has an electrical transformer on his parking lot to be swamped with technical detail when he can call the service companies to manage his problem, and they are the PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052585 computer Hiaea 'ifanscfipnoii vy AOCi <ii a. -a 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ones that need this type of information. That's the kind of example that comes to mind. Q. What PCB components are in Inerteen, for the Inerteen products? - A. It depends on the particular Inerteen. Q. And which ones would we find? A. Some of them had Aroclor 1242, some of them had Aroclor 1248, and Aroclor 1254, and as I remember, there were also some 1260 involved. Q. Okay. Pydraul F-9 was at a component of Pydraul 1248? * A. Yes, sir. MR. RUNNING: Aroclor. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Aroclor. . A. Aroclor, yes. Q. Did Monsanto convey to Westinghouse its knowledge about the effects of PCBs on the wildlife as of September of 1968? A. Monsanto had conveyed what little information it had such as Jensen, Widmark work, and the work out off the California -- southern coast of California. Mr. Carlson, I question whether that date applies to this document or applies to the original document of which this is a supplement. Q. Okay. What is the original document? Have PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052586 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you seen the original document? A. No, I haven't, but the information included here does not fit that date. It wasn't available. I personally question that that '68 date applies to this document. MR. RUNNING: It does say supplement to I.B. 45-063-998, September 1968. MR. CARLSON: Okay. MR. RUNNING: Do you have the other pages of this? MR. CARLSON-: No, this is -- MR. RUNNING: It looks like it was turned offer. Q. - MR. CARLSON: What you see is what I got. (By Mr. Carlson) Let me just go through that now. That's an interesting comment. In the third line, there is a sentence that reads, "The resulting polychlorinated biphenyls are relatively insoluble in water but soluble in fat --" Was that known in 1968? A. Yes. Q. and are extremely persistent to the environment." A. That was not known. Q. Well, if you believe Jensen, it was known. A. But when you use the word extremely -- all PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052587 cci Axucsjt x x. auo^-i vxvn 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 we can believe from Mr. -- Dr. Jensen's work was it's being found in the environment. You cannot jump in the conclusion that, yes, they are extremely persistent. Not from Jensen's work. MR. RUNNING: Don, I think the next sentence answers your question. A. Yes, and that -- when it says, several laboratories, I would personally believe that that took much more time than the period up to 1968. Q. Was any of the work done by the Bureau of Commercial Fisheries completed in 1968? A. No way. They didn't even have the standard samples to work with. We were asking for them at the time. Q. Okay. When -- strike that. A. Another reason I suspect the date, sir. The reference to the Crummart Plan of Monsanto, any specific reference to department 246, that was not made known to customers or anybody outside of Monsanto until we were ready with our incinerator program, and that would have been early part of 1970. That specific reference to that part of Monsanto. MR. RUNNING: Don, we've produced documents pertaining to scrap Inerteen. MR. CARLSON: Yeah. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052588 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 217 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) All right. (Plaintiffs Deposition Exhibit 24 was marked) (At this time, there was a short break while the witness read the document) A. I've read it. Q.(By Mr. Carlson) We've had a short break and you've had an opportunity to review Plaintiff's Exhibit 24? A. I have. Q. Have you seenthis document before? A. Yes, sir. " Q. And can you tell me what it is? . A. This is a rough draft outline for a proposed pollution abatement plan regarding PCBs. Q. And there are 15 separate sections to the outline, some with sub-parts? A. Yes. Q. And it's indicated that on October 15, I presume this was of 1969, that the Ad Hoc Committee on PCBs had been created? A. Yes, that's the committee we spoke of yesterday. Q. And this particular outline, the rough draft was dated November 10, 1969? A. Yes. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052589 computer juaea iranscripciou uy adui ^lO 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. On page 2, actually the third page, but page 2 of the outline, there is reference to the size of the Aroclor market world-wide referenced, I think, $200 million, $170 to $200 million. A. I have to assume that's in dollars. This doesn't indicate so. Q. Okay. A. Yes. MR. RUNNING: I'm sorry, though there is a handwritten comment, lbs. between world-wide and 200 million. I don't think you should be asking the witness to assume. MR. CARLSON: Okay. MR. RUNNING: And I'll object foundation. I don't think he know if that refers to punds or dollars or ounces. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Do you know in general terms what the world-wide production of PCBs were in terms of pounds back in 1969? A. It's close to this magnitude of number. They consider the European, the U.S., and the Japanese. Q. If we could turn to page 3 under Section II, there is a stated problem, is there not? A. Yes, there is. Q. And the problem is stated to be, "Damage to PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052590 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 219 the ecological system by contaminations from polychlorinated biphenyl or (PCB)." Is that correct? A. That is correct. Q. And was that, in your opinion, a problem as of November 10th of 1969? A. Yes. Q- And under Section III, the extensiveness of the problem was referenced? A. Yes. Q. And from your readings, the problem did involved involve the United States, Canada, and sections of Europe, especially the United Kingdon and Sweden. Is that a fair statement? A. Yes. Q- Did other areas of Europe, Asia, and Latin America become involved later? A. Well, certainly other areas in Europe did. Japan is an example of an Asian company that did get involved. I have no information regarding Latin America. Q. Okay. And it's indicated that the involvement could and most likely will follow the DDT investigations. Can you tell me what is meant by that as you understand the sentence? A. At that time, there was considerable interest in DDT and its impact on the environmental PERRY REPORTTNC SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052591 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 220 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 wildlife. This problem was being investigated by laboratories throughout the world, and in studying the DDT situation, laboratories at this point in time could very easily detect the presence of PCBs, so this is what was meant by the involvement with DDT and the knowledge gained by laboratories throughout the world regarding PCBs. Q. And then the nature of the problem is outlined in Section IV? A. Yes. Q. And that references, amongst other things, the original work by Widmark and Jensen? A. Yes. O. And then theFebruary '69, Risebrough's publication of his article? A. Yes. Q. And there's a statement there that at the end of the paragraph that, "truly, that J?CBs are a world-wide ecological problem." And you incur with that statement? A. Yes. Q. And we go on to the next page, the seriousness of the problem is spelled out, isn't it? A. Yes. Q. And, forexample, the outline discusses the PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052592 nx m 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 effects on fish? A. Yes. Q. And birds? Q. Yes. And there's reference to the no harmful effect known to man or other mammals after 40 years of production, right? A. That is true. Q. I'd like to just talk to you for a second about that. It says that there is no harmful effects known to man. How does that coincide with Monsanto's plant practices that you*don't have people with liver problems work in the production area, that type of thing? A. I'm not aware that Monsanto had that liver problems bit. Q. Okay. A. We operated in a process in such a way that the worker was not exposed to these materials to the extent where his liver would be affected. That was the objective of the whole approach. Q. Would it be more correct to say that there were no harmful effects known to man and the levels of the PCBs expected in the environment as of that time? A. That would be a refinement of this statement, but what this really referring to is that there is no human being out there known to Monsanto and PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052593 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 others who was harmed by the exposure to PCBs. Q. From environmental exposure? A. Yes. This all has to do with the environment, not industrial. Q. Right. And that's different than the workplace? A. Yes, but the intent is still the same. Q. Okay. And if we could go on to Section or, I'm sorry, page 5 of the outline, in Section V, there is reference to the effect on Monsanto of this world-wide psychological properly? ` A. Yes. Q. And in subsection (a), there is reference to legal liability? A. Yes. Q. And in the second sentence, I'm sorry, second line of the paragraph in section (a), it reads, "All customers using these products have not been officially notified about known effects nor do our labels carry this information." Did I correctly read that? A. Yes,you did. Q. And from what you understood as of November 10th of 1969, was that statement true? A. Yes. This has to do withenvironmental considerations. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052594 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 223 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Okay. On section (b) or subsection (b), the second paragraph, it is noted that, "The evidence proving the persistence of those compounds and their universal presence of residues in the environment is beyond questioning." Did I correctly read that? A. Yes. Q. And you would agree withthatstatement? A. Yes. Q. And then if we could go on to page 6, VII, there's a heading. Involvement with Other Producers? A. I see that," yes. Q. And the beginningsentence reads, "Although Monsanto was most probably responsible for the U.S. contamination and jointly responsible for the MCL for the United Kingdon problem, we can not accept responsibility for the world." Did I correctly read that? A. Yes, you did. Q. Who or what is MCL? A. That's Monsanto Chemicals Limited, which is a unit of Monsanto Company , the European unit. Q. And if we can go to page 7, VIII, there is a heading, Sources of Contamination? A. Yes. Q. And under subsection (a), there is open pollution and this references the Monsanto manufacturing nPQOV BPOAOrnTWr CPDUTrC WATER PCB-SD0000052595 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 facilities? MR. RUNNING: The whole section? MR. CARLSON: I'm sorry. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) It reads, "Open Pollution - Our manufacturing facilities sewered a sizable quantity of PCBs in a years' time." Did I correctly read that? A. Yes, you did. Q. Was that an intentional sewering of PCBs as you understood it or accidental? A. Well, there'was some, of course, accidental, and then there was, of course, the hosing down we spoke about earlier. Q. When we are talking about sizable quantities, what kind of quantities are we talking about? A. That's a subjective kind of thing, and depending on the author, I think that is how detectable with new methodology became sizable. Q. For example, in Anniston, at one point you were losing 500 pounds a day of PCBs, weren't you? MR. RUNNING: 500 pounds of PCB? I'm going to object to the characterization. A. I don't think it was quite that high. It was in pounds. It would be in certain pounds per day. I don't know the exact number. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052596 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 225 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Do you know what proportion of pounds per day were being lost to the sewer as opposed to lost somewhere else? A. I don't know where else it would be lost. Q. And under subsection 4 of (a), there is reference to industrial? A. Yes. Q. And there the author notes that, "These v fluids have generally been sprayed into drains, washed down sewers, and generally regarded as very harmless." Did I correctly read that? A. Yes, you did. Q. And was that an accurate statement at that time about what had happened in the past? A. Well, I personally question the use of the word generally. I'm not saying that it didn't, happen, but I don't know of anything that tells me that it was generally done. Q. Do you know anything that tells you that in, for example, the die cast business it was not generally done? MR. RUNNING: Washed down sewers? MR. CARLSON: Yes. A. Well, all I have is information and understanding that on occasion this was practice by some PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052597 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 226 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 operators of die casting equipment. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Well, are there any operators of die casting equipment that you can identify for me particularly or specifically that did not engage in that practice as of November of 1969? A. Certainly the Stroh company didn't. They didn't have any sewers. Q. Anybody else? A. I wish I could remember more. There were hundreds. I honestly don't remember names. Q. Okay. Did Monsanto in 1969, believe that municipal sewage systems were somehow degrading PCBs? A. The research chemists, the scientists had a professional opinion that this was a very good likelihood that it was happening, but they did not have any what they refer to as hard data, no scientific studies had been conducted. Q. To your knowledge, have such studies been done as of today? A. Yes, Monsanto did some. Q. And for the higher chlorinated PCBs, were they being degraded in municipal sewages? MR. RUNNING: Higher chlorinated being five or higher? MR. CARLSON: Yes. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052598 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 227 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A- The higher chlorinated did not degrade rapidly, no. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) How about for the four chlorine PCBs? A. Four, I don't remember just which, but some did degrade and some were more resistent. Q. Okay. The author references that or uses the phrase -- not to be repetitious, but I don't know any other way to get into it, "Generally regarded as very harmless." Was that your perception of what Monsanto's customers believed about'Pydraul with PCBs as of November of 1969? A. I can't speak for what the customers believed. I can only speak for Monsanto, and it was regarded as a chemical, like many industrial chemicals should not be irresponsibly handled but at the same time, if some did get away, it was well known information to indicate that it would cause harm. Q. Was PCB fluid being used for dust control on dirt roads prior to November of '69, to your knowledge? MR. RUNNING: With permission of Monsanto? MR. CARLSON: No, just was it being done. A. It was inadvertently used because in many cases, it was mixed with mineral oil, petroleum type oils, and the -- that mixure in some cases would end up PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052599 J. i. V J. V*li 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 being used to control dust on roads. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Prior to November of '69.- was that a prohibited practice in any of the states? A. I'm not aware of any regulation that prohibited it. Q. If we could then move toward to page 10, X, Courses of Action, do you see where I've gotten to? A. Yes. Q. And there are three courses of action that are postulated by the author (a) is "Doing Nothing?" A. Yes. Q. (b) is "Discontinue Manufacture of All Polychlorinated Biphenyls." A. Yes. Q. And (c) is "Respond Responsibly, Admitting that there is a growing evidence of environmental contamination by the higher chlorinated biphenyls and take action as new data is generated to correct the problem." Did I correctly read that? A. Yes. Q. And under the Do Nothing section, third to the last line, it is noted by the author that, "The only advantage to this technique -- strike that. "That the only advantage to this technique offers is it reduces the cost but this too must be weighed against potential loss PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052600 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 229 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 of business." First of all, did I correctly read that? A. Yes. - Q. And was that the perception that the only advantage to Monsanto was as stated there? A. Yes. Q. And certainly thedrawbacks faroutweigh the advantage of doing nothing? A. Yes. Q. And then the second section where it references, "Discontinue Manufacturer of All Polychlorinated Biphenyls." It's referenced on the fourth line -- well, let me start with the third line. First of all, the author notes, "Assuming we did stop manufacturer immediately, the pollutants are present in the environment, the liability is present and possibly by the shifting to the lower chlorinated materials and the recovery techniques the contamination may already be reduced to an acceptable level." First of all, did T correctly read that? A. Yes, you did. Q. And was that the perception of the company at that that if manufacturing wasdiscontinued immediately, that the contamination may already be reduced to an acceptable level? A. Yes. DOOOV P PDnDTTHr. <3OTVTrR WATER PCB-SD0000052601 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 230 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And what level was that, sir? A. It was undefined at the time. It was acceptable to the regulatory agencies and the general public -- Q. Whether -- - A. What ever the outcome might become. Q. Well, there were no regulations regarding the permissible amounts of PCBs at that time, were they? A. That's correct. Q. So the acceptable level wasn't in terms of the regulatory sense, was it? A. There was no -- that's true, there was no regulation, therefore it was not defined by that. Q. So an acceptable level then was the level acceptable to Monsanto? MR. RUNNING: Well, I object. You are mischaracterizing his testimony. Just because there wasn't a regulation out doesn't mean that they aren't regulated for consideration. I think he's answered your question. MR. CARLSON: I'm just trying to find out what an acceptable level is. A. An acceptable level referenced here was based on an anticipated level being established in the near future, whether it be arbitrary by Monsanto itself PFRRV RF. PORT TNG SFRVTCF. WATER PCB-SD0000052602 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 or by the Congress or regulatory agency or just public opinion. There are many factors at play here that would have influenced what would become acceptable, and that's why the word may already be reduced. It's not knowing the exact number. It could be positive that it had already. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Well, I understand. But it seems to me that the terms acceptable level is stated as an absolute. May already be reduced to a level which is acceptable. What I'm trying to find out is what level is that? A. There was no level established at that time. Q. Okay. The athor continties in that section and notes that there would be a loss of business without any or very few substitutes offered through Monsanto. A. I am having difficulty finding that. Q. Okay. I'm just paraphrasing it. After it says acceptable level, it says next, "Obviously the entire business would be lost without any or very frew substitutes to be offered." Is that what it says? A. That is true. Q. And as we discussed yesterday, if you lost Pydraul business, you could lose other business that was tied to Pydraul lines or Aroclor lines? A. That was a possibility, yes. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052603 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 232 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Then there's a notation, "Financial loss could be considered due to raw material contracts --" I presumed the contracts were to purchase materials to make these products? A. Certainly. Q. And if you stopmanufacturing theproducts, you still had contractual obligations to buy the raw materials that you were going to use to make them up? A. Yes, or pay a penalty for not buying. Q. Okay. In the way that Monsanto developed the Terphenyls, do you know, did they ever have to pay a penalty for cancelling the many raw material contracts or components of either PCBs or PCTs? A. I do not know. Q. There is reference to financial loss due to customer contracts. Can you tell me what that makes reference to? A. Well, to me, it seems obvious that there were contract arrangements with customers to purchase products from Monsanto containing PCBs. At certain quantities, certain time periods, for certain -- at a certain price, if Monsanto couldn't meet any of those conditions with the contracts, then it became quite vulnerable here in terms of suffering financial losses. Q. Then it references financial loss and it WATER PCB-SD0000052604 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 says, and royalty, and then it's hyphenated secrecy contracts. What does that make reference to? A. I'm not privy to all of those arrangements, to any of them frankly, so I cannot give you a specific example. Q. And then there is reference or notation, "Competition would take advantage on all fronts." I presume that has to do with -- that means they would go in and start selling competing fluids? A. Yes. Q. And then there's -- the author notes that, "We would be admitting guilt by our actions." What guilt was that? A. Well, guilty of having produced and .sold PCBs . Q. And then there was -- you'd have a loss of capital investment in the plant., I presume, if you had a fair amount of money tied up in the manufacturing facilities? A. Certainly. Q. And then at the end of this section, the author does note that, "We would possibly gain a little public image on this action." Would you concur with that? A. Yes. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052605 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 234 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Subsection (c), which references responding responsibly, which I previously read. MR. RUNNING: Well, you read the first sentence of that. MR. CARLSON: Yeah, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to state that I read the whole thing. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) It goes on to note on page 11 that, "This approach would enable us to phase out the higher chlorinated materials in many applications where they are no longer necessary or really desired." Correct? * A. That is correct. Q. Are these the higherchlorinated materials that were causing damage to the wildlife that were being phased out? A. Certainly. Q. And it indicates that, "We could maximize the corporate image by publicizing this act." Correct? A. It does say that. Q. In your perception, was a corporate image maximized by phasing out the higher chlorinated materials or stopping manufacturing the products containing the higher chlorinated materials immediately? A. You are calling for a subjective opinion and it's difficult to measure. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052606 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 235 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. RUNNING: Well, I also object to the question because this is a draft outline of proposed actions and now you are shifting it to a question about what happened, and you are assuming proposals exactly what was done the next year and now its not. MR. CARLSON: Counsel, I may shift back and forth all the time, but the question is very straightforward. MR. RUNNING: Well, the question doesn't make any sense. It's a compound question because there's more than one products involved, but you know very well that for the product in question, it wasn't just to phase out the higher chlorinated materials, it was to phase out PCBs, so I object to the question. It's counterfactual and it's assuming facts not in evidence. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Do you remember the question? A. I believe I do. Q. Okay. A. If I understood your question, what you are asking is by publicizing the fact that Monsanto was phasing out of the hirher chlorinated biphenyls, would that maximize a corporate image as compared to getting out of all PCBs. That's what I understood you to ask. Q. Yes. npoov oonnofliTwr ODDUTrr WATER PCB-SD0000052607 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 236 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . A. And you are asking for my personal opinion on a subjective question. I would suggest that the considered partial withdraw of the products that were known to be causing problems would be perceived as being the better approach, therefore, I believe personally that would maximize the image of the company. Q. Okay. In November of 1969, it was known that the Aroclor 1242 did contain some of the higher chlorinated PCBs, correct? A. That's correct. Q. In that section, italso indicates that, "We would reduce a known pollutant." Do I correctly read that particular notation? A. Yes, you did. Q. That doesn't reduce the known pollutant as much as stopping manufacturing the higher chlorinated products immediately, does is? A. If I understood yourquestion, you are talking about -- you said you are referring to higher chlorinated and using the word immediately. Q. That's right. It seems to me that if you stop manufacturing the higher chlorinated products immediately versus phasing them out, you are going to stop further pollution or potential pollution as opposed to reducing? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052608 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 237 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. That's true. It's a matter of months. Q. Okay. How does that convert to a number of pounds? I don't know if we can do that. That maybe unfair to ask you to do that, but if you can. A. Well, there's information available. I don't have any personally, but there is information in terms of pounds per year, and I suppose one could divide by 12 and get pounds per month and get an approximation, but you use the word immediate. At no time was discontinuing immediately ever considered because that would have been irresponsible. Q. Well, it was considered because it says, ''Assuming we did stop manufacture immediately, the pollutants are present' in the environment," under section (b), so it certainly was considered? A. Correct. MR. RUNNING: Well, you are arguing over the reading of the paragraph and you and I can debate that as well as Mr. Papageorge. MR. CARLSON: Well, I'm syaing the company did -- ' MR. RUNNING: The options title discontinued manufacture. It doesn't say when. MR. CARLSON: Well, we can read it again. "Assuming we did stop manufacture immediately, the PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052609 computer Aided Transcription oy Ascnoe 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 pollutants are present in the environment." And that is a consideration that Monsanto looked as of November 1969. MR. RUNNING: Wellr I object to that characterization. You are misreading the paragraph. MR. CARLSON: He can answer the question. If he doesn't agree with it, then he can say no. MR. RUNNNG: Well, he's already answered the question. He's already told you that he doesn't consider it as an option. A. I'm certain it was not considered as an option. The athor here was using the word immediate and point out that if it stopped this moment -- Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Correct.' A. -- that had no impact on the pollution that is already evident out there in the environment. That's the point he's trying to make rather than pointing out that we are considering stopping suddenly. Q. Under XII, there is an implementation of recommended course of action? A. Yes, there is. Q. And under subsection (b), "Interim (within 3 months)." There is a number of items that are referenced? A. Yes. Q. And fluids referenced is, "Protect other PCB chlorinated Terphenyls." Do I correctly note that? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052610 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yes. Q. Which other PCB materials were to be protected? A. Those that were not being found by the laboratories as being present in the environment. Q. Now, again, in actuality, the laboratories were finding the higher chlorinated substances, the higher chlorinated molecules, right? They weren't finding 1254, they were finding the higher chlorinated PCBs in 1254, for example? A. Yes, that's-one way to describe that. Q. And the company knew that therewere higher chlorinated PCBs in the 1242 as well, just not as many? A. That's right. They are very small, a respectable amount less. Q. But none the less present? A. Yes. Q. Thenunder Section 4, "Announce plans to reformulate certain Therminols and Pydraul were control of the product as difficult." Does that include reformulation of Pydraul for die cast companies? A. If they use the Pydrauls that had the higher chlorinated PCBs as an ingredient. Q. Okay. The 1242s did have higher PCBs as an ingredient, didn't they? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052611 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 240 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Not in the way it was discussed at that point in time- When we talked of containing PCBs as an ingredient, we are talking about containing the commercial mixture known as Aroclor 1242 as the component. So when we talk about discontinuing PCB, they are talking about discontinuing certain groups of PCBs as defined by the trademarks Aroclor 1254 and 60. Q. It was perceived in November 1969, that the damage to the environment was being caused by the higher chlorinated PCBs? A. That is right. Q. And the damage to the environment -- strike that. The higher chlorinated PCBs from 1242 eventually could build up to a level that causes damage to the environment? A. If it's mishandled and disposed of improperly. The program for control applied to all the PCBs. The program for discontinuing applied -- the thinking was oriented to the higher chlorinated PCB types. Q. What was inappropriate handling in 1969, to 1242 in a die cast company? A. Well, just obvious abuse, taking a dump of material and dumping it into a river or stream or the back yard, that certainly is obvious. Deliberately OTTPP V PBOnPTTHr. SKBUTHT WATER PCB-SD0000052612 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 241 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 putting an industrial chemical like a PCB in with some used motor oil and getting rid of it as a motor oil, it is the person that picks it up, and no telling him that there is some other material also. Q. What was wrong with doing that in 1969? A. You don't put industrial chemicals into materials that we know are going to be recycled like motor oils. You use motor oils. Q. But PCBs were thought to be harmless at that time? A. But it's still an industrial chemical, and, by harmless, that doesn't mean it's harmless relatively speaking. It's not a cyanide or battery acid, but in the wrong situations, it can cause harm, and that's the intent of controlling the industrial chemicals. Q. Harm for the environment as of 1969, did the customers know it was causing the environment. MR. RUNNING: Was or could cause if misused? MR. CARLSON: Was causing. The harm to the environment is the same regardless of how it gets there. A. Well, it's not only getting there, but the creature that's exposed must get to it, must be available to the fish or the bird before the harm can be noticed. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) If PCBs were mixed with motor oil or motor oil reclamation, I mean, what would be rmnAnmrur rftllTTr'D WATER PCB-SD0000052613 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 242 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the problem with that, what -- would that damage the motor oil? A. I have to confess, I am not a motor oil or lubricant expect, so I don't know what difficulty with the recycling process would find in trying to reach the conditions that discussed all the other things that the motor oil must pass to be reusable. Q. In 312 hydraulicfluid were there some petroleum fluids present? A. Yes. Q. On section `(c) on page 13, subsection (c) on page 13, under the comprehensive program, item number two is identified as marketing? A. Yes. Q. And the second paragraph refers to the -- or I'm just going to read it. "Work with customers to clean up plants on other Aroclors." Did Icorrectly read that? A. Yes. Q. Did Monsanto work with customers to clean up plants on the Aroclor 1242? A. Certainly. Q. And how did they do that? A. By -- primarily by informing them with a need to prevent entry into the environment and trying to get that message across, and, in turn, when the customers DEOOV DPOnOfTTM/! OTTDTTT/^TT WATER PCB-SD0000052614 *-- V-/ O 4_ - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 needed specific help, we would offer to try to help by consulting with our own Monsanto engineers, chemists, whoever could assist. Q. And then it references, "Report the habitual violators or "do nothings" in the product group." Did I correctly read that? A. Yes, you did. Q. Have you looked at the sales call reports on Stroh? A. I looked at call reports. I don't recall any specific for Stroh. I don't believe I've seen any. Q. Do you have any information which would allow you to conclude that Stroh would be categorized as a potential violator as used in that statement? MR. RUNNING: Based on the evidence we have now or the evidence that was known to Monsanto in 1970? MR. CARLSON: Based on the evidence he has. MR. RUNNING: That was based on the Dorene (phonetic) video deposition that he's seen? MR. CARLSON: Based on anything he has. MR. RUNNING: The question is based on the Dorene video deposition. MR. CARLSON: No, that's based on everything. Now, you listen to the question too. It was based on everything he has, and you want to tell him to PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052615 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 244 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 refer to one particular thing by coaching your witness, I supposed on a video deposition I can't stop you unless I put a muzzle on you. MR. RUNNING: Well, don't think about putting a muzzle on me, Mr. Carlson. My question is, are you asking based upon -- MR. CARLSON: I'm asking him based on everything he knows. MR. RUNNING: Today? MR. CARLSON: Yes. MR. RUNNING': Okay. That's fine A. What I know today having seen Mr. Dorene's video deposition, I would suggest that the Stroh operation could fit the category of habitual violator. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) How would you define a habitual violator? A. Someone who performs an action contrary to what is considered to be proper and does it as almost a routine. Q. I see. And is it your impression that Stroh did this as a routine? A. I have an impression that it was done certainly more than once, and it was done to provide some convience for that operation. Q. For the particular plant employee. It PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052616 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 245 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 wasn't done for the convenience of management. There's no evidence that management knew about it, is there? A. Oh, that I had no position -- MR. RUNNING: Well -- Q. {By Mr. Carlson) Go ahead. A. I don't know. All I know is -- MR. RUNNING: Do you want to tell him about the Meyer deposition? MR. CARLSON: Do you want -- MR. RUNNING: He hasn't read those depositions. We are not" offering him as the substitute for the Jury, You are asking him based on what he knows today. MR. CARLSON: Okay. MR. RUNNING: And should Stroh be a habitual violator, he has not read the Meyer or the Sunday depositions. MR. CARLSON: Okay. MR. RUNNING: He hasn't read the depositions of any Stroh management, but he has seen the Dorene video deposition and he has read the Damiani deposition, so you can ask him about those two. MR. CARLSON: All right.. Let's go beyond that now. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) What other information PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052617 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 have you looked at in this case for purposes of testifying in trial? A. I certainly have looked at some of the documents that were presented here as exhibits. Q. Okay. A. I don't remember any document that specifically had the Stroh Die Casting Company listed on it. Q. Okay. A. I don't know what else to add. Q. What depositions have you read? A. Mr. Damiani's, Mr. Dorene's, and, of course, my own. Q. Any others? A. That's it. Q. All right. Q. On Section 3 ofpart C, it says, "Production - Clean up plants and stop gross contamination." Does that reference gross contamination that's occurring in your customer's plants? A. Well, thisrefers to Monsanto's plants. MR. CARLSON: We'll be offering Exhibit 24. (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 25 was marked) Q. Plaintiffs Exhibit 25,does that appear to be a photocopy of the environmental sticker that you made PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052618 Computer Aided Transcription oy XScnoe 64 / 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 reference to in earlier testimony? A. It does. O. And that's the only copy I have, so if you will bear with me. MR. RUNNING: Would you like me to get another one? MR. CARLSON: That's okay. It's not going to take that long. Q. (By Mr.Carlson) It indicates that, "This product contains polychlorinated biphenyls, which some studies have shown may be an environmental contaminant." Did I correctly read that? A. Yes, you did. Q. It is true that at the time of that sticker was used, Monsanto corporately was taking the position that PCBs were an environmental contaminant; isn't that true? A. Yes. Q. Why did you use the word may be rather than telling the customer that it was an environmental contaminant? A. We felt that this wording correctly described what these laboratories that were making reports were saying in their summaries because there were -- you will note that the word -- the wordage PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052619 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 248 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 implies some studies. There were many many studies that did not confirm this, the fact that they were finding PCBs. In fact, there were more studies that came up with negative answers than with positive answers. Q. Except that I think that you had agreed with me a few minutes ago that Monsanto believed that PCBs were a world-wide ecological problem, not may be a problem, it was. A. For its planning purposes, it took that -- it made that conclusion internally, but in order to be correct as it could be. It used this statement to describe the situation as understood. Q. Monsanto as of November 1969, before this particular lable was drafted -- A. Right. Q. -- accepted the facts that inbirds, PCBs can effect the calcium metabolism leading to egg shell imperfections which prevent proper hatch of the young, true? A. Yes. Q. And by that time, that is by November of '69, Monsanto had accepted the fact that more levels of PCBs could cause death of small shrimp? A. Yes, but thatdoesn't saythat its an environmental contaminant. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052620 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 249 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. By November of 1969, PCBs had been found in the Great Lakes? A. Yes. Q. We know where Jensen and Witmark found them? A. Yes. Q. And we know where Risebrough found them? A. Yes. That's why we say some studies have showed them to be environmental contaminants. Q. May. You didn't say are. MR. RUNNING: I don't -- are you arguing with him? * MR, CARLSON: No. MR. RUNNING: He's explaining -- MR. CARLSON: I was explaining that there were other studies that didn't find them. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Let me do it this way. With regards to any studies that Monsanto may have been aware of where PCBs were not found, the fact of the matter is the company corporately accepted the fact that PCBs were an environmental contaminant, as of November of 1969; that is true, isn't it? A. That is the basis in which they plan their entire program, yes. MR. CARLSON: Let's go off the record for a second. I'm going switch some of this. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052621 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 250 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. RUNNING: Let me just state for the record, I have an objection to the way the plaintiff is packaged Papageorge Exhibit Number 27. The first two pages do belong together, the December 11, '69 memorandum from Mr. Olson to Bergen, but the following pages, and I've reviewed them before, and I've never seen them stapled to the 1969 memorandum. The second document contains references that make it clear that it was not prepared in 1969, and particularly references to the polychlorinated Terphenyls being the Pydraul fluid already. We know that was done in 1970 and '71, not in *69. And the third document, the handwritten document to Howard from apparently N.T.J., which maybe Mr. Johnson, there's no date on it and there's no reason to believe that it was attached to the December '69 memorandum, so I think these should be marked separately and dealt with separately. MR. CARLSON: No problem with that. I didn't think they belonged together either. I just take them as they come. (Off-the-record discussion.) (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 26 was marked) Q. (By Mr. Carlson) While we were off the record, you had an opportunity to review Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 26, did you? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052622 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 251 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. I did. Q. And can you explain for us what this is? A. This is a copy of the text used by Mr. Wheeler at Monsanto in making a presentation to the top executive committee in Monsanto in November of 1969. Q. Have yoiT seen this documentbefore? A. Yes, I have. Q. And can you tell me what was the purpose of this presentation? A. To inform the top officials in Monsanto, the president and his key vice-presidents, of the status of the PCB environmental issue. Q. Do you recall specificallywhen that presentation was made? A. November 7, 1969. I'm not certain of the 7.. but I know it's 1969. MR. RUNNING: We produced you documents of the exact date. MR. CARLSON: Correct. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) On page 4, there is reference to sampling that was done in Lake Michigan and most other places down in the third paragraph, well, actually it's the fourth paragraph on page 4. A. Oh, there. Q. Did Monsanto itself do some sampling in Lake >toroov pnntjmTxrr! WATER PCB-SD0000052623 Computer Aided Transcription by XScrioe 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Michigan? A. No. Q. Did Monsanto do any sampling in any of the rivers or streams in Wisconsin, to your knowledge? A. No, not to myknowledge. MR. RUNNING: Do you mean directly or through studies that it had helped it fund? MR. CARLSON: No, directly. MR. RUNNING: Okay. MR. CARLSON: We'll be offering Exhibit 26. (Plaintiff' Deposition Exhibit 27 was marked) Q. (By Mr.Carlson) Exhibit 27 is a document dated December 11 of 1969? A. Yes, it is. Q. And have youseen this before? A. I have not. Q. Have you had a chance to review it? A. Yes. Q. Who is D. A. Olson? A. He was at that time themarketing director for the business group responsible for the marketing of Monsanto products containing PCBs that were used as industrial fluids. Q. Would this particular memo be the kind of memo that one would expect him to send to Mr. Bergen? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE . WATER PCB-SD0000052624 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 253 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Certainly. MR. CARLSON: We'll offer Exhibit 27. (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 28 was marked) Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Exhibit 28, can you identify for me what this is? A. This is the first time I've seen this document. Q. Okay. A. Having just read it, I am under an impression that it represents a text from which someone made a presentation on the Pydraul fluids containing PCBs. MR. RUNNING: Well, if you weren't there at that presentation and don't have another way of saying that, don't speculate about what you read. A. I don't know anything about it, really. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) All right. But the document does pertain to certain Monsanto Pydraul products, does it not? A. They are mentioned throughout the document, yes. Q. And on the first page, there is a reference that the author has indicated that he has, tried to analyze the possible effects on the Monsanto customers if Monsanto decided to stop all production and distribution PRRRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052625 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 254 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 of Pydraul fluids containing polychlorinated biphenyls. Did I correctly read that? A. That is correct. Q. On the bottom of the second page, there is reference to All Other Pydrauls, do you seethat? A. I do. Q. Above that, the author had looked at the Pydraul 625, AC, and AC Winter Grade as well as the Turbinol 153? A. Yes. \ Q. The author of this document indicates that the, "Pydraul F-9, Pydraul 150, Pydraul 135, Pydraul 230, Pydraul 312, Pydraul 540, and Pydraul 320 can be converted to a phosphate ester fluid." First of all, did I correctly read that? A. Yes, you did. Q. And secondly, based on your knowledge of those products, is that statement accurate? A. Yes. Q. Then he or she as the case maybe continues, "However, the systems must be drained of Pydraul before refilling with competitive phosphate ester." Did I correctly read that? A. You did. Q. And based on the information that you were PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052626 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 255 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 aware of at the time the Pydraul 312 and F-9 was market by Monsanto, was that statement true? MR. RUNNING: In you know. A. I don't really know. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Okay. Under that section it goes on to note that the, "Pydraul F-9 and 150 contain VI improvers which are not compatible with phosphate -- MR. RUNNING: I think it's VI, viscosity MR. CARLSON: I'm sorry. Okay. You are right. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) "--viscosity improvers which are not compatible with phosphate ester unless PCB is present." First of all, did I correctly read that? A. You did. Q. Secondly, based on your knowledge of the products, was that statement true? A. At what point in time? I can only speak for the product -- Q. At any point in time. A. I can only speak for theproduct after it was developed and determined not to have this particular incompatibility. MR. RUNNING: But, Mr. Papageorge, this is referring to competitive phosphate ester, not Monsanto's. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) This is with the PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052627 Computer Aiaea Transcription oy A&cnoe 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 competitor. MR. RUNNING: You shouldn't speculate. Either you know or you don't know. Don't try to speculate. A. I don't see the reference to competitor, gentlemen. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) The top of the page -- the top of the page it says, it reads, "However, the systems must be drained of Pydraul before refilling with competitive phosphate ester. A. Oh, I see it. All right. Q. Okay. And what I'm looking at is the question of what it was about the Pydraul F-9 that made it incompatible with a competitive phosphate ester? A. I do not know. Q. And whose competitive phosphate ester could be referenced at the time Pydraul F-9 was still being manufactured? A. ` I don't really know. I can only guess. Q. Don't guess. Then the statement is made that, "The petroleum traction in Pydraul 135, 230, 312, 320, and 540 will separate as additional phosphate ester is added. The fire resistence of the combined fluids is seriously reduced and not safe for hazardous application." First of all, did I correctly read that? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052628 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 257 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. You did. Q. Secondly, based on your knowledge of the products, was that statement accurate? A. Again, not knowing the competitive phosphate esters employed and what products you are talking of, I can not -- I do not know. Q. Who at Monsanto can you identify for me that would have responsibility for doing the kinds of work referenced here, that is looking at the compatibility of the Monsanto PCB hydraulic fluids and the competitive phosphate ester hydraulic fluids? MR. RUNNING: In 1970. MR. CARLSON: Yes. MR. RUNNING: Or whenever? A. I don't know the specific. It's certainly some chemist in Monsanto's research department. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Okay. When you were a Monsanto PCB spokesman, did you talk to any research chemists about the subject of compatibility of the Pydraul F-9 and 312 with your competitors products. MR. RUNNING: I object to the characterization of being a spokesman. He did testify in congressional hearings, but that wasn't his job title. That wasn't his major responsibility. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) If -- or the author notes PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052629 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 258 1 that, "If the customer decides to switch to a water 2 glycol fluid, he must drain, throughly clean out, and 3 refill. Without thorough cleaning a gel will form and 4 clog valve and cylinders in the system." From you 5 knowledge of the product, was that a problem if one 6 switched from a PCB fluid to a water glycol fluid? 7 A. I do not know. 8 Q. Then goes on to note that, "Our estimate is 9 that there is a minimum of 2 million gallons of our 10 Pydraul fluids of this type and systems domestically." 11 From your knowledge of the use of your company's 12 products, was that statement by the author accurate? 13 A. As best I recall, yes. 14 Q. And he goes on to note or she goes on to 15 note that the, "Average customer purchase price is 16 $3.25/gallon at that time." Is that true? 17 A. That's what it states here. ! 18 Q. Does that help put us in a time frame? 19 A. Not for me. I did not keep track of prices. 20 Q. And then they simply did a certain simple 21 amount of arithmetic and multiply to get $6.5 million of 22 fluid in hydraulic systems at the present time, the 23 Monsanto fluid. At least that's what this person 24 apparently attempted to do from the reading of it, 25 correct? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052630 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 259 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. That's what it states. Q. Then the author goes on and notes, this fluid -- this fluid, I presume being the Pydraul hydraulic fluid in use is all usable and if a customer is told by us to take the fluid out and change to another FR fluid, what is our financial obligation to credit the customer for this fluid as a question to either himself or whoever he's writing to. First of all, did I correctly read that? A. You did. Q. FR stands for what in that context? A. Fire resistent. Q. And it goes on then and notes that, "There is no law requiring him to stop using fluids containing PCB." So that at least helps give us some time frame, doesn't it? MR. RUNNING: Well, I object to that. There still isn't a law requiring people to stop using PCBs. there's just the threshold. MR. CARLSON: The threshold, I suppose if you want -- nevermind, I don't want to get into a debate about that. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) And then there's a question, "Are we obligated to compensate the customer for his down time in changing over to another fluid." WATER PCB-SD0000052631 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 260 1 That's another question this person had of either himself 2 or the company, right? 3 A. That's what it states. 4 Q. Okay. And then it says -- strike that. 5 Then if we could turn -- the easiest way is to look at 6 the bottom of the page, STR 002162. Do you see what I'm 7 referring to? 8 A. I have the page, yes. 9 Q. The second to the last paragraph begins, 10 "Since our customer would have to change out 11 immediately --" Do you see what I'm referencing? 12 A. I see that sentence, yes. 13 Q. It goes on or reads, "Since our customer 14 would have to change out immediately, there would be an 15 immediate demand for 2 million gallons -- 20 million 16 pounds of phosphate ester or water/glycol fluids to fill 17 systems." First of all, did I correctly read what he had 18 written? 19 A. Yes, you did. 20 Q. And he goes on to note, "It would probably 21 take six months to one year for our competition operating 22 at capacity to supply the initial demand of replacement 23 fluid, and is itpossible that they have additional 24 capacity to supply" -- I'm sorry, I misread that -- "and 25 is it possible they have additional capacity to supply nwisov ta PtiAomTMr Ct?DX7T^W WATER_PCB-SD0000052632 compucer aov/i j.i>c 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 system make-up requirements of 15 million pounds." First of all, did I correctly read that? A. Yes. Q. To your knowledge, did Monsanto ever approach its competitors to see if they could manufacture enough hydraulic fluid to make up this 2 million gallons that would be necessary? A. I do not know. Q. Do you know whatefforts Monsanto took at any point in time to see whetherhydraulic fluids from competitors could be used -- strike that. Do you know what efforts Monsanto took at any time to see if hydraulic fluids that would be available from competitors would be insufficient quantities to satisfy the needs of your customers in they had drained their machines? A. I do not know. (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 29 was marked) Q. (By Mr. Carlson) And when you turn to Exhibit 29, which is a handwritten note at the top, Howard, do you have some understanding of who Howard is as you are referring to that? A. Yes, sir. Q, Who is that? A. Howard Bergen. Q. Have you seen this particular document PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052633 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 262 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 before? A. Q. No, I have not. Do you have any information that you could provide to me as to who the author of this document is? A. The initials shown are those of Norman Johnson. Q. And in the memo, one of the situations looked at is what it would take to change a typical 400 ton die cast machine from whatever is in it to phosphate ester, correct? A. Well that's'what I read here, yes. Q. Do you have any personal knowledge about how that work is done? A. I do not. Q. There's also a section in what has to be done to change to the water/glycol, do you see that? A. That's whatit states. Q. Do you haveany personal knowledge of what it takes to make that change? A. I do not. MR. CARLSON: We will be offering Exhibits 27, 28, and 29. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) I'm a little bit curious when did Monsanto first start looking at making hydraulic fluid using phosphate ester to replace Pydraul 312? WATER PCB-SD0000052634 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 263 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. RUNNING: Replace 312a or 312? MR. CARLSON: 312 or 312a. Replace anything. It doesn't make that much difference to me. A. As best I recall, the research directed at finding a phosphate ester as a replacement was started in late 1969. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Prior to that, did Monsanto make a phosphate Easter hydraulic fluid for use by the Navy? A. I don't know. Q. Do you know' how long it tookMonsanto to develop the phosphate ester fluid that was intended to replace the Pydraul 312 or 312a product? A. Well, they finally achieved this as best I recall in about mid-year of 1971 or 2, 1972, yes. Q. So we are looking at a period of a little over two years? A. Yes. Q. Was a principle amount of that time in development of that product devoted to finding a way to make the phosphate ester compatible with the PCB fluids that were in the Monsanto customers hydraulic systems? A. I have no way of determining the amount of effort devoted to any consideration involved in developing the product. DPDDV OPOAOT'TM^ CffOUTPl? WATER PCB-SD0000052635 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 264 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Okay. From your reading in Monsanto documents and talking to Monsanto people, it was important to Monsanto that the phosphate ester product be compatible with the prior 312 and 312a products; isn't. that true? A. That was a major objective or part of the total objective, yes. Q. And one of the reasons that it was a major objective was because Monsanto did not want to have to take back the hydraulic fluids that were in those die cast machines? ` A. That is not -- you say one of the reasons? Q. Yes. A. I don't personally know that that was a serious consideration in developing this product. The principle points raised had to do with impact on the customer and his operations and costs to the customer imposed on him by a totally different product. Those were the most important consideration because the marketing people were concerned that if we approach the customer with an incompatible product that created all sorts of problems, economic and what have you, we would be almost forcing the customer to go to the competition and they didn't want this to happen. Q. Therefore it was important to develop a DPTJPV BBPflRTTHr. RBRUTPR WATER PCB-SD0000052636 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 265 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 product, phosphate ester product that was compatible with the 312 and 312a? A. Certainly. Q. Monsanto did look at the concept of how much it could cost the company, Monsanto, if the customer's machines had to be drained in order to accept the new fluid; isn't that true? A. Certainly. Q. And Monsanto anticipated that if its customers were asked to drain their machines of PCBs before putting in the new hydraulic fluid, that some customers would ask for the money back for the hydraulic fluids that they had previously purchased from him? A. Well, they anticipated the possibility for such a request to be made, yes. Q. And attempted to calculate how much that could possibly cost the company? A. Yes. Q. In 1969, inDecember of 1969, Monsanto looked at the potential for continuing selling PC-B products outside the United States; isn't that true? A. Well, thatcame up as part of the discussions relating to what is a proper approach, yes. Q. And it was though that even if you could not sell PCB products in the United States, you may still be cepdv pnpnRTTMr. SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052637 lil^s Cl C- c: J_ rtXUCU 1 1 -.UiOvl. `,iVU j * . K.- i- -i- jw 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 able to sell them in Japan if that country was not concerned about pollution. A. That was considered, yes. Q. At one point in time, however, Japan abruptly curtailed the rights to sell PCB products, didn't they? A. I don't know how abruptly. They did move fairly quickly, yes. Q. Are you familiar with the Wharf paper on PCBs in the Great Lakes or Great Lakes -- A. I'm familiar with at least one. I believe there were more than one. Q. You are right. Are you familiar with an original papaer that came out in January of 1970? A. I don't recall the date, but that sounds about right, yes. Q. Do you recall in that report that it was mentioned that two parts per million PCB concentration in sedement in Lake Michigan was considered to be a high concentration? A. I don't remember the details, no. I'd have to see the document again. Q. The Wharf work was sent to Elmer Wheeler to your knowledge, wasn't it? A. Yes. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052638 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 267 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And then as the question of the hydraulic fluids continued in February of 1970, your company developed some predrafted answers for field salespeople to use when questioned about PCBs, or at least as of that date, those predrafted answers existed, didn't they? A. Yes. (At this time, there was a ten minute break in the deposition) (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 30 was marked) Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Mr. Papageorge,when we were off the record, you've had a chance to review the contents of Exhibit 30? A. I have. Q. And Exhibit 30 consists of several separate types of documents, does it not? A. Yes. Q. The first documents or first pages are a memo from N.T. Johnson of February 16 of 1972, to the people listed? A. Certainly, yes. Q. And have you seen that before? A. Yes. Q. And the second is a two-page letter of February 9, 1970, from Donald Olson to certain Monsanto customers? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052639 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 268 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yes. Q. And then there is a February 18, '70 letter to certain Monsanto customers? A. Yes. Q. And thenthere's a section onpossible customer questions on PCBs and publicity? A. Yes. Q. And you've seen all of these before? A. I have. Q. Withregardsto the N.T. Johnson memo, on the second paragraph he notes that, "We want to avoid any situation where a customer wants to return fluid." Does he not? A. I see that, yes. . Q. And do you know why he, on behalf Monsanto or at least in that capacity, did not want any situation to occur where a customer would want to return fluid? A. Well, there are many considerations involved in that desire or that want. Primarily, it's one of creating situations where attempts to -- I hesitate because there is two kinds of fluids I have in mind here. One is the fluid already in the system, and there's certainly no need to drain the system if the fluid is performing well. The advantages of using that fluid are present, and as long as it's carefully handled, there's WATER PCB-SD0000052640 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 269 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 no problems. The other situation is the one where a drum or a container unopened of new material is in the customer's storeroom, and again, there is no reason for him to panic and send the material back as is. Handling of used material can create situations where escape into the environment might occur. Just the process of draining a system could create opportunities for that to happen. The shipping back of material in containers that may not be originally designed to handle this kind of fluid could create a transportation problem. It was an attempt really to discourage action that wasn't intended and it wasn't perceived to be helpful, and yet to try to minimize creating potential from other problems relating to PCBs to be created because of frantic activity that might result from people who misunderstand the problem. Q. One of the problems that could occur if the customers wanted to return their fluids, was that it could be expensive to Monsanto? Q. Well, I don't know what you mean by expensive. You mean in disposing of it? There are costs associated once Monsanto has this material, it must dispose of it. It's used. Q. Or if it's material that otherwise was suitable for use as a hydraulic fluid, if it was some - strike that. If the hydraulic fluid was still nwnAtJmrtt/^ eootrT^t? WATER PCB-SD0000052641 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 270 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 serviceable but the customer wanted to return it- because of the perception about PCBs, you would expect the customer to ask for his money back and that could be expensive to Monsanto. A. Well, there is a cost involved and the degree of expense depends on the number requests, the amounts returned, yes. Q. Then it goes on to note in that same paragraph at the end of the fourth line from the bottom, MHe -- I presume he being the customer -- will then top off with a new fluid and1 eventually all Aroclor 1254 and Aroclor 1260 will be out of his system." Where did Monsanto expect that all of this 1254 and 1260 was going to go? A. At this point in time? MR. RUNNING: Well, I object to the relevance of that. We are not talking about the Pydraul fluids. We don't even know if this is hydraulic fluids. Q. (By Mr. Carlson)Go ahead. A. We are referring here to the Aroclor 1254 and 60? Q. Yes. A. If it's properly managed and handled, and for some reason is removed from the use to which it was put, it could be disposed properly in a landfill or at PERRY REPORTING SERVICE ~ WATER PCB-SD0000052642 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 271 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 this point in time -- well, it was a little early yet, but the incineration idea was developing. And in subsequent months, the possessor of that Aroclor 1254 and 60 material could have sent that material to Monsanto for destruction by incineration. Q. At least in February of 1970, that was not a concept that was being told to your sales force, though, was it? A. Well, the sales force knew we were working on incineration and this particular sentence really refers to the future wheh it uses the word eventually. Q. It will be out of its system? A. Yes. It may take many years. Q. So it wasn't Monsanto's expectation that all of the 1254 and 1260 in your customer systems would end up in waste disposal sites as of February 16 of 1970? MR. RUNNING: Objection, you are mischaracterizing what he just said. A. I would not say that we expected all of it. We expected the amounts that did not get treated properly to be such a small amount, relatively speaking, that no harm would be expected. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Okay. Even if it was treated properly, that is fluids handled properly, which I think is what you meant to say, you did expect that _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________I DKPBV RTTPORTTMO <?P!R VT T.T? WATER PCB-SD0000052643 wtu^/ * -- S' 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 there was going to be some escape of the fluids into the environment, didn't you? A. Yes. Very little though. I don't know how to qxiantify that for you. Q. Okay. And if we take a look at the February 9, 1970 letter, it discusses the PCBs being found in the environment which were 54 percent and 60 percent chlorine by weight, do we not? A. It does -- Q. The second paragraph. A. -- they are'mentioned, yes. Q. Again, what, in fact, was being found were higher chlorinated biphenyls in products which were 54 percent and 60 percent chlorine by weight? MR. RUNNING: I object of you saying there is any contradiction. The sentence says it is claimed that the PCBs found strongly resemble chlorinated biphenyls containing 54 percent and 60 percent chlorine by weight. There's no inconsistency. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Well, let's go through this. There's no chlorinated -- strike that. In your products, is there a chlorinated biphenyl molecule which is 54 percent chlorine? A. I'd have to sit down and do some arithmetic here. It wouldn't surprise me if there's a combination PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 of chlorine, hydrogen, and carbon in this polychlorinated biphenyl forum that may very closely approach 54 percent. Q. If it dose, it's incidental to the formulation of the product of Aroclor 1254, isn't it? A. I guess incidental is as good a word as any. Q. Okay. A. It's almost a coincidence that the single chemical would have the same chlorine that the mixture does. Q. Would a more -- I expect either Mr. Running will object or you will tell me if my statement is inaccurate, but would a more accurate sentence in the beginning of the second paragraph be that it is claimed that PCBs containing higher chlorinated molecules which are found in our 54 percent and 60 percent chlorine by weight products have been found in the environment? A. Well, that statement is true, but those same chemicals are found in other Aroclors like Aroclor 1262 and Aroclor 1268, and these chemical fingerprints that were being seen at the time didn't indicate even those -- even higher chlorinated. The fingerprint looked more like the Aroclor 1254 and 60 than it did anything else. Q. How much work had been done on the biodegradation of the lower chlorinated PCBs as of February of 1970? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052645 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 274 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Not an awful lot, just some preliminary screening kind of work. Q. Was it Monsanto's expectation that the lower chlorinated polychlorinated biphenyls were degrading? A. Yes. Q. In the bottom section of the letter on the first page, it makes reference to the following, "We would like to point out following additional facts." Number 1 is, "Products such as Pydraul 90, 135, 230, 312, A-200, F-9, 150, and 60, Turbinol 153 and Therminol FR-1 and FR-2 are not formulated with Aroclor 1254 or 1260. First of all, the statement is accurate, isn't it? A. Yes. Q. Is there an indication in this letter what the Aroclors -- strike that -- what the Pydraul 312 and F-9 were formulated with? A. Not in this letter, no. Q. Was it your company's expectation that a Pydraul 312 user receiving this letter, if they did not use the Aroclors 1254 and 1260, would not have to take any action? A. Certainly not. Q. Was -- A. That'swhy we included the lastparagraph on page 2 of the memo. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052646 Computer Aided Transcription oy xscrioe a/a 1 Q. And that was the Chemical Week information 2 on water pollution? 3 MR. RUNNING: Well, it says more than that, 4 Mr. Carlson. 5 MR. CARLSON: Yes, okay. 6 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) But that is one of the 7 things that was provided? 8 A. Certainly. 9 Q. And in that information, was there any 10 reference to any PCB standards for the State of Wisconsin 11 as of the date of that particular publication, October 29 12 of '69? 13 MR. RUNNING: Why don't you show him the the 14 Chemical Week article other than testing his memory on ' 15 it. 16 MR. CARLSON: My copies so poor I can't read 17 it. Do you ever a clear copy with you? 18 MR. RUNNING: I think I may actually. 19 MR. CARLSON: Okay. 20 MR. RUNNING: I have the relevant page from 21 the Chemical Week article and for Wisconsin it reads 22 under the heading, "Toxic Substances, none in 23 concentrations or combinations toxic to humans or public 24 health significance." I also has various standards of 25 allowable temperatures and oxygen levels. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052647 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 276 1 MR. CARLSON: That's fine. Thank you. 2 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Now, Mr. Papageorge, in 3 February of 1971, at what levels did Monsanto believe 4 Pydraul 312 would be toxic in humans? 5 A. You said February 1971? 6 Q. Yes. I'm sorry, February 1970, you are 7 right, thank you. I'm jumping ahead of myself. 8 A. The levels that applied to Pydraul, as best 9 I remember, had to be, for certain, the standards I 10 mentioned yesterday of the Americans Governmental 11 Industrial Hygienists relating to the PCB exposure over 12 an eight-hour working day. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. Or eight-hour exposure day. There were no 15 other numerical guidelines available to pass on to 16 anyone. 17 Q. Okay. For example, if eye a cast company in 18 February of 1970, wanted to know what PCB concentration 19 levels in its water discharge would potentially be a 20 human health problem, were there any guidelines 21 available? 22 A. No, they would have to develop their own 23 from the exposure number back to the conditions under 24 which a human being would be exposed of that disposal, 25 water, disposed water, and determine from that the PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052648 1 A. This February 9 letter was sent to all 2 customers who had purchased Pydrauls from Monsanto for a 3 period of at least three years. 4 Q. Is that what you've been told by others in 5 the company? 6 A. No, I was involved personally. 7 Q. But, T mean, who did the mailing? 8 A. Oh, the secretaries. The secretaries did 9 the physical work. 10 Q. Did you keep some record of the addresses 11 and other information from the people that received the 12 February 9 letter? 13 A. Yes, we did. 14 Q. Now, go to February 18, 1970 letter. 15 A. I see! it. 16 O. What was the purpose of the February 18 17 1970 letter? 18 A. This letter was sent to customers of PCB 19 products used in electrical equipment. 20 Q. And then it was on -- we have the possible 21 customer question section. Will you turn to that form 22 me? 23 A. I have it. 24 Q. And in you would, turn to page 4 of that 25 section, under Effluent and Its Control. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052649 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 276 1 amounts that were possible. 2 MR. CARLSON: Could you read that back for 3 me? 4 (Reporter read back last answer) 5 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Okay. In the last6 sentence it reads, "We feel that all possible care should 7 be taken in the application, processing, and effluent- 8 disposal of these products to prevent them from becoming 9 environmental contaminants." Did I correctly read that? 10 A. Yes, you did. 11 Q. And the paragraph above that referencing 12 products, specific products were products with Aroclor 13 1254 and 1260; is that correct? 14 A. Yes. ' 15 MR. RUNNING: Well, I think the letter can 16 be read by anyone. 17 MR. CARLSON: Well, anyone can read it. 18 MR. RUNNING: And I object to the 1 9 characterization. 20 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Monsanto also had a 21 February 18, 1970 letter? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. By the way, how did Monsanto go about- 24 determining who would receive the February 9 letter, was 25 it sent to just the Aroclor 1254 and 1206 customers? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052650 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 277 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 3 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. This February 9 letter was sent to all customers who had purchased Pydrauls from Monsanto for a period of at least three years. Q. Is that what you've been told by others in the company? A. No, I was involved personally. O. But, I mean, who did the mailing? A. Oh, the secretaries. The secretaries did the physical work. Q. Did you keep some record of the addresses and other information from the people that received the February 9 letter? A. Yes, we did. Q. Now, go toFebruary 18, 1970 letter. A. I see it. Q. What was the purpose of theFebruary 18, 1970 letter? A. This letter was sent to customers of PCB products used in electrical equipment. Q. And then it was on -- we have the possible customer question section. Will you turn to that form me? A. I have it. Q. And in you would, turn to page 4 of that section, under Effluent and Its Control. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052651 j. 1 A. T have it. 2 O. One of the questions is, "How do I dispose 3 of Aroclor 1254/1260, etcetera, effluent from a my 4 plant." That was one of the questions that Monsanto 5 expected your sales folks to be asked, I guess? 6 A. That's what it states, yes. 7 Q. Okay. The last full sentence on the bottom, 8 it reads, "We don't recommend feeding this material to 9 local sewage treatment plants --" in part, does it not? 10 A. Yes, it does. 11 O. Did you recommend feeding this material to 12 the local sewage treatment plants for 1242 fluids? 13 A. No. 14 Q. During the time Pydraul 312 was ' 15 manufactured, did any of its labels or product brochures 16 advise that the material should not be mixed with 17 anything that goes into those sewage plants? 18 A. No, that would not be a statement included 19 on any industrial chemical label. 20 Q. Specifically for the Pydraul 312 that was 21 not included? 22 A. That's true. 23 Q. And on page 5, there is a question, "Can T 24 test my effluent to see if my effluent has no Aroclor 25 1254, etcetera." Correct? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER_PCB-SD0000052652 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 27 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. That is correct. Q. And then there is an answer.. "Yes. Analytical equipment is available and can do this if the proper techniques are used, etcetera --" and gives some information about that, does it not? A. It does. Q. Did Monsanto at the time Pydraul 312 or F-9 was manufactured, ever advise its customers to check its effluent to see if those PCBs were present? A. I cannot, of course, speak for the field representatives and his discussions with the customer. On the other hand, I don't recall any mailing that addresses that subject, so T frankly do not know. Q. If you would be kind enough to turn to page 8, there's a question, "Why should PCB be an environmental contaminant and chlorinated Terphenyls not." Do you see that question? A. I do see it. Q. By the way, later on, it was determined by Monsanto that if Terphenyls were used long enough, they would be an environmental contaminant just as PCBs were, right? A. Some of them. Q. In the middle of the response there is reference that those Aroclors -- I'm sorry, "Those such PERPV RRPnRTTMC SERVTCE WATER PCB-SD0000052653 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 280 1 as Aroclor 1221, 1232, and 1242 haven't been identified 2 in marine, aquatic, and wildlife environment." Correct? 3 A. That is correct. 4 Q. But some of their components had been, 5 hadn't they, some of the components of 1242 had been 6 identified? 7 A. Certainly as in combination with others to 8 give the fingerprints that we talked about earlier. 9 Q. Then if we go to page 9 -- on page 11. under 10 application, question number 2, it was hypothesized that 11 your salesman maybe asked, "My product X contains Aroclor 12 1254/1260, what should I tell my customers." And in the 13 middle of the third line, the sentence reads, "We would 14 say that it would not seem wise to use Aroclor 1254 or 60 IB for keeping dust down on roads." That's one of the 16 responses that was prepared for your salespeople to use, 17 right? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. You didn't tell your salespeople that it 20 would not be wise to use the 1242 to keep dust, on the 21 roads though, did you? 22 A. Yes, but this question here was specific for 23 54 and 60. 24 Q. Oh, I understand that. I understand that. 25 I'm switching to a generality again. I'm not trying to PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052654 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 281 1 confuse you. I'm just trying to find out. You never 2 told your salespeople to give this same information to 3 the 1242 users? 4 MR. RUNNING: Well, you are stating that as 5 a fact. You should be asking him as a question. 6 A. Well, not knowing all of the documents and 7 discussion that were given to the sales marketing people 8 in the field, I can't answer that. 9 MR. CARLSON: I do offer Exhibit 30. 10 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Are you aware of a PCB 11 conference that took place in Duluth in March of 1970? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. And one of the things that wasreferenced i 1 4 that conference was PCBs had been found in the Milwaukee 15 River? 16 A. I remember that, yes. 17 Q. And about that time, it wasreported that 18 the acute toxicity to fish increased as the number of 19 chlorines decreased, a change in which you had been 20 seeing or thought you had seen earlier, wasn't it? 21 A. I don't know that it was so much a change. 22 T have trouble with your definition of change. We were 23 aware of presence of PCBs in fish. Up to that point, 24 they were not informed by any laboratory that they had 25 studied or noted toxicity, a harmful effect on the fish. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052655 Computer Aided -Transcription by XScribe 282 1 It was a presence as compared to a toxicity. For me, 2 this was a first time I had heard a report that .1 associated a harm to some fish with an Aroclor. That * 4 changed. 5 (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 31 was marked) 6 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) And I'd like to have you 7 review, if you would. Plaintiff's Exhibit 31. Tt's 8 fairly short. I think you are probably familiar with it. 9 A. I have read it. 10 Q. All right. The document is a March 30, 1970 11 memo to yourself from R.` Emmet Kelly? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And do you recall seeing this before? 14 A. I have. - 15 Q. And the subject of that particular memo is 16 PCBs being found in milk? 1 7 A. Yes. 1 8 Q. And he raises aquestion, "When are we going 19 to tell our customers not to use any Aroclor in any paint 20 formulation that contacts food, feed, or water for 21 animals or humans." Correct? 22 A. He does. 23 Q. What did you tell him? 24 A. I told him as soon as we'd get to it, which 25 was our phase out program in a few months following this. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052656 Computer Aided Transcription by XSeribe 283 1 Q. T don't mean in amount of time. I mean what 2 did you tell him about when you are going tell your 3 customers not to use that or was that part of the phase 4 out program? 5 A. Well., the phase out program, these Aroclors 6 of all kinds are not available for coatings of any kind 7 whether they are food, feed, water, or skyscraper. 8 Q. It was important to you that the Aroclors 9 not get into the food chain? 10 A. Certainly. 11 MR. CARLSON': I will offer Exhibit, what is 12 i t, 31. 1.3 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) When is the first time 14 Monsanto told its Pydraul 312 customers what it was made 1 5 of? 1 6 A. That:, I don't know. 17 MR. RUNNING: Well, I object to that. 18 MR. CARLSON: Okay. 19 MR. RUNNING: The label says chlorinated 20 hydrodioxide. 21 MR. CARLSON: Yeah, I know that. Okay. 22 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Give me some other 23 examples of chlorinated hydrocarbons besides PCB. 24 A. Chlorinated benzine, chlorinated ethylene. 25 Q. Would you say there's a pretty long list? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052657 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 284 1 A. Oh, it's a quite a long list. 2 Q. Okay. When did you tell your customers -- 3 strike that. when did you tell your Pydraul 312 4 customers that it contained PCBs? 5 A. That I don't know. 6 (At this time, there was a break in the deposition 7 for lunch.) 8 (Plaintiff's Depsition Exhibits 32 and 33 was q marked) 10 O. (By Mr. Carlson) Mr. Papageorge, we've had ii a chance to have lunch, and I'd like to go over a few 12 more documents and I have a few more questions for you if 13 you can bear with me. 14 ' A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Over the break that we had, you had a chance lfi to review Exhibit Number 33, did you? 17 A. I did. 18 Q. And can you identify for me what this 19 documents is? 20 A. It's an outline of a presentation made to 21 Monsant's corporate management committee in April of 22 1970, attached to it is the text of the information that 23 was shared with that committee. 24 Q. If you would be kind enough to turn to STR 25 001432, which is about the fourth document from the end. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052658 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 285 1 A. I believe T have it here. 2 Q. It's a PCB Content Plant Effluent Report? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Where was that plant effluent for the two 5 plants referenced -- or I'm sorry, for the three plants 6 referenced going? 7 A. To community sewage treatment plants. 8 Q. Okay.And in the Anniston plant, you 9 started with a discharge in the effluent of 50 pounds per 10 day in June of 1969? 11 MR. RUNNING": Just for the record, Don, 12 would you acklowledge at least that when you said 500 13 pounds this morning that you were in error? 14 MR. CARLSON: Yes. I will certainly do IS that. I would also -- 16 MR. RUNNING: I make plenty of errors 17 myself. I just want the record to reflect it, 18 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) The hundreds I think came 19 to ind because of the 700 pounds per day at Sauget, but 20 it was 50 pounds per day in Anniston in June of '69, and 21 it goes down at the time apparently of this report was 22 five pounds per day? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 O. And what is the date of this report? 25 A. This is April of 1970. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052659 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 286 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Are the listings for October of 70. January of '71, September of '71, expected discharges? A. Yes? Q. And then on Sauget, it shows 700 pounds per day in April of '69? A. Yes, sir. Q. Down to 200 pounds per day in March of 1970? A. Yes, sir. Q. And at the present time time of this study, it was 65 pounds per day? A. That is correct. Q. And then in Newport, was that a relatively knew facility? A. No, that was of the United -- the plant over in Europe. Q. Oh, T see. A. And we didn't have as good information at that time. Q. Over there, at the time of this study, the plant discharge of PCB content in effluent was 30 pounds per day? A. Yes, sir. (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 34 was marked! Q. Would you be kind enough to refer to Exhibit 34? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052660 Computer Aided Transcription Dy AscriDe O/ 1 A. T have it. 2 Q. And the cover sheet is a memo from yourself 3 of April 7 of 1970, to the people listed? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. And that includes or attached to it is the 6 management planning polychlorinated biphenyl 7 environmental problem? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. And are you the author -- or are you the 10 author of that particular document? 11 A. Yes, sir. ` 12 Q. In the statement of the problem about a 13 third of the way through it, there's a sentence, 14 "Increasing evidence has been noted that indicates PCR as 15 ubiquitously present in the environment and is resulting 16 in damge to the ecological system." First of all, did T 17 fairly read that? 18 A. Yes, you did. 19 Q. I'm interested with .regards to the 1254 and 20 1260 Aroclors that were being picked up in sampling, for 21 example in 1969, I think, somewhere along that in the 22 environment? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. How were those particularAroclors getting 25 into the environment? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052661 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 288 1 A. Well, T can't speak for each and every 2 incident. 3 O. No, T understand that. 4 A. But the Aroclors 1254 and 1260 were the 5 types that were used in what we called open uses. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. An example was in paints and varnishes and 8 the like. It's easy to see how that use could allow for 9 easy entry into the environment. 1 0 Q. Okay. 11 A. As to just how they got there, it's possible 12 and understandable to expect that some of it could have 13 been done because of association with some kind of water 14 stream and ending up in rivers and streams and lakes. 15 Some of it could have come from evaporation where some of 16 these materials were exposed to hight temperatures, they 17 evaporated into the atmosphere, and then eventually find 18 their way on the ground and their normal changes in 1.9 climates and all end up that water systems. Some of them 20 found their way into the environment because of their 21. use, and by that, I have in mind such things as adhesive 22 or as a caulking material such as when the building is 23 dismantled or the window pain removed and the caulking 24 around it is discarded. It wasn't buried. No particular 25 efforts were made to contain it. It could have gotten PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052662 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 289 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 out into the environment. Q. All of those that you've referenced would be uses of those products from the plasticizer group? A. Yes, O. The products were used asdielectric fluids and capacitors and other electrical components., were they not? A. Yes., they were. Q. Was it Monsanto's expectation that a significant amount of the PCB pollution that was being found in '69, was coming' from these electrical applications? A. We did not perceive that as a significant source because we were very conscious of the fact that these liquids containing these kinds of PCBs were in sealed steel containers, so it was quite difficult for us to expect that use to be a big source. Q. Wasn't the plasticizer portion of this business in pounds per year substantially less than the hydraulic fluids? A. I don't remember that. We are talking now about the Aroclor 1254 and 60? Q. That's right. No, I'm sorry, that was a misstatement. In looking at all PCBs for either electrical applications, hydraulic fluids, or PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052663 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 290 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 plasticizers, was the plasticizer business a smaller portion of the total than the others? A. I don't believe so. I think it was larger than the industrial fluids, the hydraulic fluids. Q. Was the only direct pollution of waterways that your company found coming from, industrial applications -- I'm.sorry, of hydraulic fluids of all PCBs? MR. RUNNING: T didn't understand the question. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Yes. In looking at how PCBs, even in small quantities, got into the waterways, is the only direct way that this occurred from the industrial fluids? A. Not the only way, no. Q. What other direct way did it occur? A. I'm confused by what other direct way. Q. I don't want to be cumbersome about it, and perhaps if I can just tell you hypothetically what T'm thinking. If you have a manufacturing facility that has die cast machines and some fluid gets on the floor and they clean the floor and it gets into either the sewage system and doesn't biodegrde or goes in through a ditch and gets into a lake, that's one way that you can have PCB contamination of a lake? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052664 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 291 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yes. Q. And some circumstances in the plasticizer, for example, that you mentioned, if you have an adhesive, there apparently is a wearing away somewhere and then it's carried by some other medium to the water and then deposited into the water? A. Yes, as an additional step involved. Q. Okay. In retrospect, you're company has concluded that much of the -- strike that -- that some of the PC.Bs identified which prompted the 1254 and 1260 letters back in 1970, was, in fact, residual PCBs in 1242? A. In retrospect, I'm assuming you mean as of today? Q. That's right. A. As of today, yes. Q. And the knowledge -- orwhatadditional knowledge is there today that you have that you didn't have in 1969, in that regard? A. Oh, we have the results from all of the biodegradation studies that were underway or just getting started in late '69, or early 1970. Q. So that the actual work that you did -- I presume your management plant didn't occur overnight, Exhibit Number 34? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052665 1 A. You mean the writing of it? 2 Q. That's right. 3 A. Well, no, the elements in it, no. 4 Q. Okay. For example, if we turn to the page 6 5 of the work where you have Objective and in the 6 subheading a Status, do you see that? 7 A. Yes, T see that. 8 Q. And it indicates in the paragraph beginning q with biodegradibility, it reads, "Biodegradibility TO studies of existing and substitute products with 11 aclimatized microorganisms are being conducted at Ruabon. 1 2 Data to date indicates that the monochlor and some of the 13 di in trichlor biphenyls degrade; remaining PCBs are 14 highly resistent." First of all, did T correctly read 1.5 that? 16 A. Yes, you did. 17 Q. And did the continuation of thework that's 18 referenced confirm the preliminary data that's reported 19 in this particular report? 20 A. The continuation of that work at the Ruabon 21 laboratory? 22 Q. Yes. 23 A. It did. It confirmed these earlyfindings, 24 but there were additional studies made with different, 25 organisms. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052666 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 q 10 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Was it your expectation as of the date of this report that the biphenyls that had four chlorines and more were the ones that were resistant to biodegradation? A. Well, at that time -- MR. RUNNING: Well, that's a compound question, and T want to break it up. Do the four and then the more. You are linking in the four with the five. MR. CARLSON: No, I'm just expanding the size. * MR. RUNNING: Object. Compound question. A. The thinking at that time centered around the five chloro and higher. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) I understand. A The four and less were perceived to be the types that would lend themselves to degradation. Q. But the four is in reference in your report anyway as being the type that would lend itself to biodegradation? A. Not at this time, no, but that was the thinking amongst the scientist that were preparing all of these tests programs. They were trying to confirm their scientific opinions here. Q. And you tried, as best you could, to PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052667 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 1 accurately convey to the folks that would receive this 2 management plan their thinking? 3 A. Well, no, no. In this case, T tried to 4 convey the data that was available, not the thinking on 5 the part of the scientist. ' 6 O. Why don't we, if we could, in a number of 7 documents that I've reviewed -- I guess I'm going to try a to paraphrase a little bit, but if I misstate something, 9 and T'm sure either Mr. Running or yourself will let me TO know, but there seems to be reference to the use of PCBs 11 in hydraulic systems where the PCBs cannot be controlled. 12 Do you remember seeing that phrase appearing in Monsanto 13 documents? 14 MR. RUNNING: Well, I object to the 15 characterization. . 16 A. T don't know that the -- I don't recall the 17 reference to cannot be controlled. I recall the ia reference to difficult to control. 19 Q. {By Mr. Carlson) Okay. What is meant by 20 the term difficult to control? 21 A. Well, that can cover many different, factors. 22 The fact that these fluids are used under high pressures 23 creates a difficulty in maintaining systems that won't 24 leak. The type of operation by its very nature is such 25 that shutting it down is not easily done. That gives PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052668 Computer Aided Transcription by XScrtbe 1 another type of difficulty, and in so many cases, 2 frankly, there were some operators that didn't have the 3 resources to provide the necessary attention in terms of 4 maintaining their equipment or building the curbing 5 required and the collecting systems to control, so that's 6 another kind of difficulty that what is expected in 7 someplaces not everywhere. ft Q. We may have covered this yesterday, and T 9 certainly don't want to be repetitions. Did your company 1.0 ever advise die cast companies to build curbing around 11 die cast machines? ' 12 A. I personally am not aware of any document 13 that states that, but T am personally aware that that was 14 a often repeated recommendation to the marketing 15 department. 16 Q. As of what year? 17 A. Starting in 1970. lft MR. CARLSON: I guess for therecord T will 19 be offering Exhibit 34. 20 Q. {By Mr. Carlson) Yesterday you and T talked 21 a little bit about close the loop, do you remember that 22 conversation? 23 A. I do. 24 (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 35 was marked) 25 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) You now haveExhibit PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052669 1 Number 35? 2 A. I do. 3 Q. And Exhibit 35.. the first page is a memo 4 from yourself of August 31 of 1970, to a number of people 5 indicated on the document? 6 A. Yes, sir. . 7 Q. And attached to that was a rough draft of 8 the Polychlorinated Biphenyl Waste Control and Disposal? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. These are suggestions that you had drafted 11. at that time referable to handling ofPCBs? 12 A. Yes, sir. 1.3 Q. Was this rough draft ever put in final form 14 for distribution to your salespeople? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Was it put in final form for distribution to 17 customers directly? 18 A. Not from my office. T don't know what 19 others may have done with it. 20 Q. Have you talked to Mr. Damiani or any other 21 Monsanto salespeople that have called on Stroh, 22 personally talked to them about this litigation? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Do you have anyinformation that Stroh 25 received from your sales and marketing people the PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052670 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 297 1 2 2 4 5 6 7 a q 10 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 information set forth in your draft? A. I do not. MR. CARLSON: We'll be offering Exhibit- One -- I'm sorry. Exhibit 35. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Would you be kind enough to refer to Exhibit 36. Have you seen -- you've had a chance to review it? A. Yes, I have. Q. And have you seen this particular document before? A. Yes, I have'. Q. And the -- it's a letter of August 29 of 1960, to a Mr. S. Facini at Chicago Pneumatic Tool Company. A. I'm confused. Q. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong one. MR. RUNNING: I think you mean 32. MR. CARLSON: I'm sorry. MR. RUNNING: I think you marked that as 32. MR. CARLSON: Oh,did I. Okay. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Do youhave Exhibit 32 there? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Let's go back. You've had a chance to look at Exhibit 32? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052671 1 A. T have. Q- And this is an August 23, 1360 letter from .1 Jack Garrett. to a S. Facini? 4 A. It is. 5 Q. And have you seen this document before? 6 A. Not before. 7 Q. Do you know who Jack Garrett was? 8 A. T do. q Q. Who is he? 10 A. He was a member of Monsanto'scorporate li medical department. He was the corporate industrial 12 hygienist. 13 Q. In this particular letter, the second 1 4 paragraph -- first of all, if you will bear with me and 13 see if I read this correctly, "Tf the material is 16 discharged in large concentrations it was adversely 17 effecyt the organisms in the bottom of the receiving 18 stream which will effect the aquatic life in the stream. 1 9 Now, did I correctly read that? 20 A. You did. 21 Q. And then itgoes on to say, "This effect 22 will probably not be any more serious than the effect of 23 heavier petroleum oils." Did I correctly read that? 24 A. You did. 25 Q. Am I correct insaying that as of 1360, PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052672 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 299 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 TO 11 12 13 14 1R 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Monsanto had not directly studied the effects of the PCR discharges on the aquatic life? A. That is correct. Q. And, in fact, the fourth paragraph down of Mr. Garrett indicates that, "Based on the toxicity studies of these fluids with laboratory animals, T would not expect them to be very toxic to aquatic life. On the other hand, this is a surmise on my part since we have no tests on aquatic animals." Am I correct in reading that? A. You did. Q. Did from the reading of the documents that you had available to you in your wworkrk at Monsanto, did you find any documents that indicated the folks working PCBs in the '50s and early '60s, considered what happened to fish that may be contaminated, did anybody look at that subject? A. I found no such documents. Q. Did you find any references to whether these fish maybe consumed either by humans or by birds or other creatures? A. This is in the '50s and '60s? Q. That's right. A. I found no such documents. MR. RUNNING: '60s before not 1968? Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Yes, prior to your PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052673 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 300 1 becoming aware of Jensen's work. 2 A Yes. 3 MR. CARTjSON: We will be offeringExhibi t 4 32. 5 (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 36 was marked) 6 O. (By Mr. Carlson)Do you haveExhibit 36 7 there? A a A. T do. 9 Q. And Exhibit 36 is a document dated October TO 19 of 1970? 11 A. October 19,* yes. 12 Q. Have you seen this before? 11 A. Yes. 14 Q. Can you tell me what the first two pages 1 5 are? 16 A. It's a copy of a memo addressed to me by - 17 written by Mr. Wheeler on the subject of toxicity 18 research. 19 Q. And in that particular memo, there's a 20 number of itemized additional data that was needed? 21 A. Yes. 22 O. Under item number 3, it reads, "Escape to 2 3 the environment cannot be prevented in all proposed 24 applications (including disposal of products containing 25 them)." First of all, did I correctly read that? PERRY'REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052674 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 301 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 IB 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. You did. Q. Did that include the use of PCBs by die cast companies? A. You are asking me to guess as to what Mr. Wheeler had in mind. I don't know what he meant by all proposed applications. MR. CARLSON: We'll offer Exhibit 36. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Was it found in 1970, that in your 1242 hydraulic fluids -- strike that. -- your Aroclor 1242, 1242-Bs, and 1254s, that they contained contaminants of chlorinated naphthalene? A. No, there was no such finding. Q. Do you remember receiving a memo from R. R. Keller regarding chlorinated naphthalenes? A. I believe T recall a memo. Q. That same memo also was looking at. whether or not furans were preent, do you remember that? A. In several Monsanto products -Q. Right. A. -- yes, I remember that. Q. And you remember that at that time they did not find my furans? A. That is correct. Q. Does that refresh your recollection of whether or not they may have found naphthalene? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052675 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 30 2 1 A. T recall the discovery of chlorine 2 naphthalenes in the chlorinated terphenyls. T do not 3 remember any reference to chlorinated naphthalenes in 4 PCBs. 5 Q- Terphenyls being -- strike that. Are you 6 aware that in January of 1971, Elmer Wheeler had written 7 to TBT regarding some pheasant reproduction that may have 8` been affected by PCBs? 9 A. Pheasant reproduction. T recall the topic 10 of discussion that he referred to. I don't at this 11 momemt remember any specific letter to TBT. 12 Q. Do you recall it being found that pheasant 1 3 reproduction was being affected by exposure to PCBs? 14 A. I recall that, yes. ..................... 1 3 Q. And when the decision was made to market the 16 terphenyls in place of the biphenyls Pydraul 312, am I 1 7 correct in saying that your salespeople were told to sale 18 your biphenyl 312 first even though the terphenyls may be 19 available? 20 A. Yes. Those are paraphrase -- that question 21 is paraphrased, but in other words, the material already 22 in field warehouses would be moved out and followed by 23 the new material. 24 Q. At the time the new material was first being 25 marketed, was it expected by Monsanto that it would not PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052676 Computer Aided Transcription by XSoribe 303 1 be an environmental contaminant? 2 A. Tt was expected that if it became a 3 contaminant, it would be more acceptable to the 4 environment than the PCBs. Tn other words, it was 5 perceived to be a step in the right direction. 6 O. But your company was willing to market the 7 rest of its PCB fluid before it took this step? 8 MR. RUNNING: You mean if -- 9 MR. CARLSON: That's right. 10 A. When properly used we saw no problem. 11 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) So the answer to my 12 question is yes? 13 A. Yes. 14 O. By 1971, you knew that the Aroclor 1242 was 1 5 potentially damaging to our environment? 1 6 A. '72. Yes. Our studies showed that it did 17 effect birds, yes. 1 8 Q. And was it understood that the effect on the 19 birds, in part, was due to the biomagnification and 20 biocumulation that was occurring? 21 A. Well, the biomagnification process created 22 conditions where the amounts of PCBs that were ingested 23 by the birds would be such that they would be affected 24 especially in terms of their hatchability of their eggs, 25 shell thickness, and so on. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052677 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 304 1 Q. So the concept of biomagnification was 2 understood in January of 1971? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. As was the concept of biocumulation? 5 A. Yes. 6 (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 37 was marked) 7 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Do you have Exhibit Number 8 37? 9 A. T do. TO Q. Have you had an opportunity toreview that? 11 A. I have. ` 12 Q. Can youtell me whatExhibit 37 is? 13 A. It's a copy of a document. It's entitled 14 Industrial Hydraulic Fluids Transition Plan. 15 Q. Would you be kind enough to turn to page 25 1 6 for me? 17 MR. RUNNING: I'll object on foundation 18 until you establish he worked with this document or saw 19 this before. 20 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Have you seenthis 21 document before? 22 A. I have. 23 Q. On page 25, there is a statement, Policy on 24 Returned Fluids. 25 A. I do. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052678 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 305 1 Q. And if you bear with me and see if T read it 2 accurately. "All customers should be discouraged from 2 draining present fluid from their machines. It is very 4 costly to refill machines and returned fluid will add to 5 our already overwhelming inventory of fluid for 6 incineration." Did I correctly read that? 7 A. That is correct. a Q. Did that policy on returned fluids as stated 9 in the document apply to the Pydraul 312 that was in use 1.0 in die cast companies? ii A. Tt would apply but the procedure does permit 12 the return if you will read further. 13 Q. But the customers were to be discouraged 1 4 from returning it? 15 A. Yes. There was no reason to return unless 1 fi there were problems. 1 7 Q. Well, you hadn't had an incineration probram 1 a by that point, didn't you? 1 9 A. Oh, yes. 20 Q. And you knew that 1242 wasa damage - 21 potential damage to the wildlife? 22 A. Potentialbut not ifproperly used. 23 Q- Well, let's go back to your ten part per 24 billion effluent standard, okay? 25 A. Yes, sir. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052679 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 306 1 Q. You didn't tell your customers that that was 2 a standard -- Monsanto didn't? 3 A. I don't know that. 4 Q. okay. You are not aware of any regulatory 5 standards in 1971, on permissible or impermissible PCB 6 discharges? 7 A. That is correct. 8 Q. You knew that in washing floors even if you <3 are washing down sustains of hydraulic fluid that someone 10 was going to get into the environment? 11 A. Yes. ` 1 2 Q. You knew that this could biocumulate over 1 3 years in the food chain? 1 4 A. If it's of the higher chlorinated type. 15 O. Okay. But you knew the 1242 was causing 16 this kind of damage? 17 A. T did not know that. How would I know that? 1 8 Q. Well, I thought you told me that the chicken 1 9 studies had been done by this time? 20 A. Well, the chickens were deliberately fed 21 1242, and an effect was noted. This tells us if birds 2 2 are exposed to 1242, you should see this kind of result. 23 There's a difference between a deliberately planned 24 exposure to the birds and what might happen to the 25 environment because other factors come into play. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052680 Computer Aided Transcription by xscnte JU f 1 Q. You had been advised that there were POBs 2 found in brown pelicans? 3 A. Of the higher chlorinated types., yes. 4 Q. And of the perigan falcon? 5 A. Of the higher chlorinated types., yes. 6 O. When you say of the higher chlorinated 7 types, you are going back again of the 1254, 1260 8 designation, aren't you? q A. Yes, T am. 10 Q. But what really was occurring is that there 11 were PC-Bs of higher chloro -- there were PCBs in these 12 birds of the same type that was in the 1242? 13 MR. RUNNING: Well, I object to that 14 characterization. - 1 3 MR. CARLSON: Well, that's true, isn't rt? 16 MR. RUNNING: You know the percentages in 17 the 1242 and you are must muddling the issue. 13 MR. CARLSON: No. Exactly what I'm saying 1 q is exactly true. I know -- 20 A. Some of them are present in both. The 21 quantities are very different. 22 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) I understand. But they 23 are there? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And depending upon your plant quality PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052681 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 308 1 control, you may have more higher chlorinated in 1242 2 sometimes than you it at others times? 3 A. Where. 4 Q. As the 1242 is being rnanufactured. 5 A. Well, it will vary a percent or two. 6 Q. Do you have your quality control records 7 showing the percentage of higher chlorinated biphenyls in 8 1242 -- does the company still have those? q MR. RUNNING: We produced records showing 10 the percentages. n MR. CARLSON': No, I'm talking about the 12 quality control. 1 3 MR. RUNNING: Well, the tests that were done 1 4 at the time. I don't know what you are referring to 1 5 quality control, but we produced those records. 16 MR. CARLSON: Okay. 17 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Did your company do 1 8 day-to-day quality control on that? iq A. Yes. Bach batch of material undergoes 20 quality control. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. But quality control did not include 23 determination of the types of PCBs in the mixture. 24 Q. Now, do you have any other exhibits there 2.6 before you? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052682 Computer Aided Transcription by XSoribe 309 1 A. Yes, I do. I have three more numbered 2 exhibits. 3 (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 38 was marked) 4 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Okay. Is the next one 5 Exhibit Number 38? 6 A. 38. 7 O. Andthat is identified as what, sir? 8 A. This is a copy of a memorandum dated January q 25, 1971, authored by N. T. Johnson and addressed to the 10 recipients listed on the first page. 11 Q. And on the bottom paragraph of the N. T. 12 Johnson, January 25, *71 memorandum, indicates that, the 13 company would prefer not to ship the new formulations to 1 4 any customer until the old formulations have been sold 1 5 out from the Queeny plant or warehouses. Ts that fair 1 6 reading? 1 7 A. It does -- yes, that's fair. 18 MR. CARLSON: And I'll offer Exhibit. 38. 19 (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 39 was marked) 20 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) And you have Exhibit 39? 21 A. I do. 22 Q. And can you identify that, for me, please? 23 A. This is a copy of a summary of the status of 24 the PCB environmental issue that was presented to 25 Monsanto's corporate management, committee in November of PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052683 -- *- -- 1 1971. 2 O. Have you seen that document before? .1 A. T have. 4 Q. Ts the information that'scontained on 5 there, to the best of your knowledge, accurate? 6 A. Tt is. 7 O. If you would turn to 2702.. which is, T 8 think, about, the third from the last. page. 9 A. I have it. 10 Q. It shoes 1972 sales of Pydraul fluids of 11 1 2 A. Tt does. 1.1 Q. With a gross profit of 1.7 million? 14 A. It dose. 1 .9 (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit. 40 was marked) 1 6 O. (By Mr. Carlson) Okay. And you have 17 Exhibit Number 40? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And can you identify that for me, please? 20 A. It's a copy of a memorandum addressed to Mr. 21 T. L. Gossage dated November 17, 1971, authored by Mr. C. 22 L. Bradford and N. T. Johnson. 21 Q. And would you be kind enough to turn to page 24 STR 006211? I guess it's page 8 of the projects 25 analysis. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052684 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 311 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 TO 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. I'm confused. T only have four pages. MR. RUNNING: Let me interpose a foundation objection. You haven't established that he used this document at the time of his employment at Monsanto. MR . CARLSON: Okay. MR. RUNNING: Just that he'.? seen it, or actually, you just asked him to read what it was. MR. CARLSON: At this point, I don't think I've asked him much of anything. MR. RUNNING: Right, right. Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Let's start with -- to reidentify it. It is a document dated November 17 of 1971, to T. L. Gossage? A. That is correct. Q. By Bradford and Johnson? A. Yes. Q. Mr. Bradford at that time held what position with the company? A. He was the technical, specialist in the group that marketed functional fluids used as industrial hydraulic fluids. Q. And Mr. Johnson? A. Mr. Johnson was his supervisor, and he was the manager of marketing for those products. Q. And if we turn to page 3, the third PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052685 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 312 1 paragraph, you've seen the document before, haven't you, 2 before today? 3 A. This is the first time T've seen this one. 4 Q. This one being this copy of it? 5 A. No, no, this document6 Q. T see. Ts the memorandum of Mr. Bradford 7 and Mr. Johnson to Mr. Gossage the kind of memorandum 8 that you would expect people in that position to send to 9 Mr. Gossage? 10 A. Certainly. They reported to Mr. Gossage. 11 These are part of his team. 12 Q. And one of of their jobs was to report on 13 chlorinated terphenyls? 14 A. Yes. 1.5 o. Okay. 16 MR. RUNNING: T don't object to the 17 document. T just object to him asking questions about it 1 8 until you lay a foundation. 19 MR. CARLSON: Okay. 20 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) And the third paragraph of 21 the last page on page 3 -- I'm sorry, second to last page 22 on page 3, first of all, it reads, "Since all other new 23 products would be compatible with the old, we would 24 recommend simply adding the new to the old as make-up." 25 First of all, technically, did that correspond with your PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052686 1. 2 3 4 5 6 7 ft 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Ifi 17 1 ft 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 understanding at the time? A. Yes. Q. Was there anything different about your competitors fluids at that point which would allow them to be used with your products if a customer had so chosen? A. T don't know enough about the competitors products to comment. Q. Tt goes on, ''This, of course, would mean gradual loss to the environment of all PCTs and PCBs in our current customers' system." Does it not? A. Tt does say that. Q. The people that wrote this memorandum, what kind of people reported to them? Did salesforce report to them? A. Salesforce reported to Mr. Johnson. T'm not aware of anyone reporting to Mr. Bradford. Q. So Mr. Johnson would receive his information from the people that were out iin the field calling on the customers? A. Well, that would be one source of information. Q. Then he goes on, "The alternative would be to replace their current charge of fluid with new fluids and incinerate their old fluid, all at our expense." PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052687 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe .n. 4 1 That's what the document says anyway., correct? 2 A. Yes, it does. 3 Q. And did Monsanto at some point at Monsanto's 4 expense offer to incinerate the fluids that were in use 5 in your customers die cast systems were Pydraul 31.2 or 6 F-9 was in use? 7 A . T don't know. R Q. And then, "A rough estimate of the amount of 9 fluid involved in that operation would be 20 million 10 pounds?" 11 A. That's what'isprinted inhere. 12 Q. And is that dataconsistent with information 13 that was made available to you when you were looking at 14 how much fluid was out into the field? 1 5 A. Yes. 1.6 MR. CART,RON: We will offer Exhibit Number 17 40. 1 R (At this time, there was a ten minute break in the 19 deposition) 20 (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 42 was marked) 21 O. (By Mr. Carlson) We've had a brief break, 22 and, Mr. Papageorge, during that break have you had an 23 opportunity to review what has been marked as Plaintiff's 24 Exhibit Number 42? 25 A. I have. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052688 V.UHIUU n n.4v< I t micv. I. 1V-/II wjr AO'- JL l 1 O. And can you tell me what the document is. 2 sir? 2 A. This is a copy of a reasearch report from 4 Monsanto's research laboratory, and it's dated February 5 12, 1971. and it describes the activities during the 6 previous year, 1970, by that laboratory in support of the 7 PCB studies. 8 Q. On the summary of the work, there is a 9 number of points that are made starting with water and 1 0 sediment, etcetera. Do you see what I'm making reference 11 to? ' 1 2 A. I see that, yes. 1 3 Q. And in that particular reference, it's 14 indicated that, "Water and sediment from four 19 manufacturing sites, 13 customer sites, 12 II. S. rivers, 16 one U.K. river, and Lake Michigan" were looked at and 1 7 Aroclor was found? 18 A. Well, it doesn't say that. It just says 19 that's the kind of sample they looked at. 20 Q. Well, I'm sorry. Up above -- I guess we 21 have to read it in context with the previous paragraph. 22 The previous paragraph reads, "The attached table 23 summarizes results of the work done during 1970 on the 24 detectionof PCBs in environmental materials. It covers a 29 total of 496 samples which were analyzed during 1970. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052689 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 316 1 POBs typical of our Aroclor products were found in" then 2 water and sediment -- 3 A. That is correct. 4 Q. Okay. In the manufacturing sites where the 5 Aroclors were found, Aroclor is being -- strike that -- 6 where the PCBs were found, were those your ntanufacturi ng 7 sites? 8 MR . RUNNING: They are listed the table. q MR . CART.SON: Yes, I know. 10 A . I will have to look at the tables , sir. n Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Sure. 12 A. I know that some of them were. Yes, I can 13 see four of them already, yes. Those are -- four of them 1 4 are Monsanto sites. IS Q. And, for example, at the Anniston plant, 16 PCBs of the 1242 variety were found, I believe, in the 1 7 Snow Creek water as shown on the first page of the table? 1 8 A. T see that, yes. 1 9 Q. I may be reading this wrong, and certainly T 20 don't want to characterize something that doesn't exist, 21 but it appears to me that with the exception of the 22 Delaware -- with the exception of your Pensacola plant -- 23 that was your plant, wasn't it or was that somebody 24 elses ? 25 A. That is Monsanto's plant. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052690 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 317 1 O. That 1242s were found just about everywhere 2 the samples were taken? 3 MR. RUNNING: Objection., that's 4 mischaracterization. 5 MR. CARLSON: Well, I supposed we can go 6 through it. 7 O. (By Mr. Carlson) 1242 was found at the 3 Coomerige plant? <3 A. Yes. 1.0 MR. RUNNING: Are you referring just to the 1.1 four manufacturing sites', then I'll withdraw my 12 objection, but if you are talking about all the sampling. 13 MR. CARLSON: No, I'm just talking about the 1 4 sampling that appears on these tables with the exception 15 of the non-industrial sampling that was done. 1.6 MR. RUNNING: If you are referring to the 1 7 environmental sampling, I'm obtain my objection. 1 8 MR. CARLSON: Okay. We can go through them. 1<3 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) You -- that is the 20 Appleton Coted Paper Company was looked at anci ten 21 samples were taken? 2.2 A. Well, it's not very clear. I read that as 23 the ten referring to air samples. I don't know what 24 happened in that water entry there. 2 5 Q. Okay. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052691 computer Aided Transcription ny xscnoe -1 LB 1 A. Unless that's a typographical error, because 3 there's nothing else across the page that fits the water 3 role. 4 Q. Okay. 1242 was found at the Appleton Coated 5 Paper Company? 6 A. Yes. 7 MR. RUNNING: In the air. a A. In the air. 9 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) At. General Motor 1242 was in found in the water? li A. General Motors, which there's two 12 listings. 13 Q. T'm sorry, the first listing. General Motor 14 Coro. -- . 15 A. General Motors -- 16 O. -- the Central Foundry Division. 1 7 A. -- Bedford, Indiana, there is 13 water 18 samples, and they found 1242 and 1248. 19 Q. And then there is a General Motors sample 20 that was looked at, a mold sand? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And 1242 was there? 2 3 A. Yes. 24 Q. And then at Ford they looked at some mold 25 sand and found 1242? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052692 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 319 1 A. Yes . 2 Q- At Johnson Motors in Waukegan.. Illinois., 3 they looked at water and found 1242? 4 A. Yes. 5 O. Wisconsin Steel, they looked at water and 6 found 1242? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. At the Wheeling Pittsburgh Plant, they 9 looked at water and found 1242? 1.0 A. Yes. 1 i Q. And then at' hester Coating, they looked at 1 2 the storm sewer water and found 1242? 1.1 A. Yes. 1 4 Q. At CentralDiecasting, they lookedat water 1 5 and found 1242? 1 fi A. Yes. 17 Q. TimkenBearing, theylooked atwater and 1 8 found 1242? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. U.S. Steel, they looked at water and found 21 1242? 22 A. Yes. 23 O. At JARD Co, Inc., they looked at water and 24 found 1242? 25 A. Yes. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052693 V % * !.' . L nA i. . *. 1 ._ X f* v *v- >-> *. t. *-- 1 Q. They looked at General Electric and they did 2 not find 1242 at General Electric? 3 A. That is correct. 4 O. When they looked at the fish composite from 5 the Manitowoc River, there was a PCB level found in -- is 6 that just referencing that was found in parts per 7 million? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. There was no attempt to identify which of 1 0 the Aroclors those PCBs came from? 11 MR. RUNNING': Well, that's not true. 1.2 MR. CARLSON: Okay. I'm sorry. 13 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Well, thedocument says 14 1244? IB A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. And would that be because of the 1 7 higher chlorinated PCBs found in 1254? Higher 1 8 chlorinated prior PCBs found in 1254, that's why it's 19 reported as coming from 1254? 20 A. Well, this is what the analytical chemist 21 saw from the results of his instrument. The chemical 22 fingerprint resembles Aroclor 1254, and that's what he 23 reported. 24 Q. Okay. Do we know where the PCBs came from 25 that ended up in the Manitowoc River and got into those PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052694 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 321 1 fish? 2 A. T don't know. 3 O. For the Kewaunee fish composite, do you know 4 if there's a die cast company in the area where the 5 Kewaunee River is located? 6 A. I do not. 7 Q. Do you know if they used 1242 in that area? 8 A. I don'tknow. 9 O. Was an attempt made to identify where the 10 PCBs were coming from for each of the readings of PCBs in 11 fish that are reported oh this table? 12 A. I am aware of an attempt being made. T 13 don't know how successful that effort was. 1 4 Q. For example, as I understand it, the 1 5 Wisconsin Aluminum -- 16 MR. RUNNING: No, this is Wisconsin Alumni. 17 Research Foundation. 1 8 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Oh, I'm sorry, the Alumni 19 Research Foundation is one that -- you are right -- that 20 sent that material in? 21 A. Yes. They sent samples to Monsanto, shared 22 samples with us to compare results. 23 Q. Okay. If a die casting operation today was 24 allowing 1242 Pydraul fluid that was in its -- strike 25 that. The Aroclor 1242 that was in its Pydraul 312 fluid PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052695 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 1 to get into a river, would you expect that over a period 3 of time the PCBs would be picked up by the fish? 3 A. Yes, over a period of time if the river had 4 fish in it. 6 Q. Sure. We are assuming that there's 6 somethingswimming around in there. 7 A. Yes. a Q. And if those fish wereanalysed with the q presence ofPCBs, would the fingerprint look like the i o 1264? n A. Very likely' not. 12 Q. Do you have any documents that you've 13 reviewed that address that particular question? 14 A. There are reports from Monsanto's 1 6 laboratories addressing that type of question, however it 16 was in rats and chickens. 17 Q. That's the direct feeding studies? 18 A. Well, it is direct feeding, but what T'd 1 q like to point, out, the test animal was fed a given kind 20 of PCB. 21 Q. Right. 22 A. Its tissue was analyzed with time, six 2 3 months, one year, and so on, and it was noted in those 24 reports that the identity of the original PCB was 26 disappearing as time went on in the tissue of these tests PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052696 Computer Aided Transcription Dy xscnne -i y..> 1 animals -- 2 Q. Okay. .3 A. -- which is analogous to what, happens in 4 fish. Tt. might ingest Aroclor 1242, but in time, it 5 shoes up in its tissue if analyzed. fi Q- Right.. 7 A. It has the fingerprint of a 1254. 8 O. I see. That process also is affected by the 9 amount of biodegradation that occurs in the environment 1 0 before the fish is exposed to the PCBs also? 11 A. Certainly. Tt accelerates it. It happens 1.2 quicker than -- 1.3 Q. We had discussed on various occasions the 1 4 concept of landfilling unwanted PCBs as a topic, and T 1 5 just had to let you know what subject T'm addressing. 1 6 Are there landfills today that are having to be dug up as 1 7 a result of PCBs being in them, which at the time those 1 8 PCBs were plased in those landfills was perfectly 1 9 acceptable practice? 20 A. I'm not personally aware of any landfill 21 being dug up, to use your expression, because of PCBs. 22 Q. Are you aware of work done on the sediment 23 of lakes in order to clean up the area as a result of PCB 24 deposition? 25 A I don't know of any persona lly. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052697 Computer Aided Transcription by xsoribe 324 1 2 3 4 5 fi 7 a 9 10 11 i2 13 14 13 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Have you read about it? A. No. Q. Are there PCBs found in the Waukegan Harbor? A. Yes. O. There was a lawsuit being the EPA and Outboard Marina about that, wasn't there? A. Yes. Q. As a matter of fact, Monsanto was a part of that for a while? MR. RUNNING: But then dismissed by the EPA. O. (By Mr. Carlson) And the products liability case put you on hold with an agreement that Statute of I.imitations has been told? MR. RUNNING: The case was dismissed. MR. CARliSON: The products liability case is still potentially remaining. You can't be sued. I understand -- MR. RUNNING: The case against Monsanto has been dismissed, and its been dismissed for eight years. MR. CARhSON: The allegation against Monsanto under the regulation has been dismissed, but the potential products liability case by Outboard Marina against you, against Monsanto, is not pending at the present, but as T understand it, there's an agreement that the Statute of Limitations has been told as to that PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052698 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 129 1 also, so that case can be brought. 2 O. (By Mr. Carlson) Now, regardless of all of .1 that, all T want to know is were you deposed in that 4 case? 9 A. Yes. 6 O. And were you familiar with the environmental 7 problems that prompted the FPAs actions? 8 A. At the time T was, of course, much more 9 familiar. T had forgotten some of the details. 10 Q. Did it involve PCBs in the Waukegan Harbor? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Coming from the die cast operations of 11 Outboard Marina? 14 A. That was alleged. I personally don't know. 19 Q. Do you recall being asked to provide some 1 6 advice on handling of PCB fluids for a company whose 17 discharge water was into the Sheboygan River? 1 8 A. Sheboygan River. 19 MR. RUNNING: Does he recall -- I'm sorry. 20 MR. CARLSON: Does he recall consulting 21 about or hearing about a situation where the die cast 22 company's discharge water was going into the Sheboygan 21 River. 24 A. Of course, I recall the river. T don't 2.9 recall any specific incident, but that kind of question PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052699 computer Aided Transcription oy xscnoe uo 1 was fairly common in the early '70s. 1, at the moment, 2 don't recall a specific. 3 (Off-the-record discussion.) , 4 O. (By Mr. Carlson) Mr. Papageorge, you've 5 been most tolerant.. T appreciate it, and let me just ask 6 you a few more questions, and we'll see if we can't 7 finish this up. In December of 1971, is it fair to say a that one of the reasons the company elected not to have 9 customers return Pydraul 312 or F-9, or at least to 10 discourage it, was to aid in maintaining the company's 11 market share in the hydraulic business? 12 A. I don't know enough about the market factors 13 that would lead the marketing managers to arrive at a 14 position like that. I don't know how that would effect 1.3 market share, personally. 1 6 Q. That's left to folks in marketing and sales? 17 A. That's their job, yes, sir. 18 Q. And you don't recall reviewing any Monsanto 19 documents addressing that particular question? 20 A. I have not, no. 21 Q. Was there at some point in time, to your 22 recollection, in 1972, dibenzo fvirans found in foreign 22 PCB material? 24 MR. RUNNING: Manufactured by Monsanto or 25 other companies? PRFRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052700 computer Aided 'I'ranscnption dv Ascnoe >4 i 1 MR. CARLSON: Other companies. A. Your date confuses me because the presence 3 of furans in foreign material was found by the Dutch 4 researchers as early as 1970. 5 Q. (By Mr. Carlson) Okay. 6 A. There may have been other studies that 7 confirmed that, but that was not new information in *72- a Q. Have you read studies in which it is 9 reportedly found that furans have been found as a result in of combustion of PCRs? 11 A. I don't recall reading reports addressing 12 that. 13 Q. From your look, it appears as if you 14 remember reading something address that? IB A. No, I recall discussions which the 1 fi scientists that are knowledgeable were talking about the 17 possibility for such a reaction to take place. T do not la remember any scientific report that supported that 1 9 thought. 20 Q. Have you actually gone out and done research 21. on that issue? 22 A. T have perused the literature when I was 23 aware that it was present. I didn't have any particular 24 research product addressing only that. 2 B Q. Ts it your testimony that there is no PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052701 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 328 1 research literature indicating that furans are produced 2 by combustion of PCRs? 3 A. No. It's my testimony I'm not aware of such 4 literature. 5 O. Do you remember Dr. Kelley looking at 6 laboratory results of the Monsanto PCB workers back in 7 1972? 8 A. I don't recall. Is this a blood study -- <3 Q. Yes. 10 A. -- or urine study? 11 Q. Yes, both. * 12 A. T recall a study of that type. The details.. 1 3 T don't recall any longer. 1 4 O. Do you recall being reported that there were 1 5 abnormal results in the hematric glucose and pollen 1 fi esters in lab results from your PCB workers. 17 A. I don't remember those details.- no. 18 Q. Do you recall Monsanto paying for the 19 incineration costs of Firestone, fire resistant fluids 20 from their heat exchanger systems? 21 A. No. 22 O. In instances such as with Firestone or 23 General Motors or Outboard Marine, you are not saying it 24 didn't happen, it's just that you didn't have contact 2.9 with that particular subject? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052702 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 339 1 A. That's right. 2 MR. RUNNING: Well, T don't -- yon mean .1 instances such as -- you only named three companies. Are 4 you talking about paying for incineration? 5 MR. CARLSON: That's right. 6 O. (By Mr. Carlson) What happened to the 7 incinerator that was used to incinerate PCBs? a A. Tt was shut down in 1977.. when Monsanto <5 stopped producing PCBs. And at that time, it was in such 1 o bad need of repair that, it was dismantled. 11 Q. Do you recall at that same time there being 12 discussions about whether or not. incineration on the PCBs 12 were producine dioxins and furans? 1 4 A. I wasn't, personally involved at that time. 15 O. Do you recall a letter from TBT to Dr. 1 fi George Lebatos at. Monsanto enclosing the results of a 1 7 four-day static fish toxicity study? i a A. I recall a letter from TBT and T recall that, i q the results were not. clear at all, and, in fact, the 30 lasting memory that T have i.s that the test was a 31 failure. I don't know if that is the same report that 3 3 you have. 3.1 Q. Do you remember that there was a particular 34 fish toxicity study addressing 1242? 35 A. Yes, along with other PCBs. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052703 Computer Aided Transcription by xscrxbe j.j o 1 Q. And at 100 parts per million, it appeared as 2 though all the rainbow trout were killed within 96 hours? 3 A. I don't remember that specific detail. 4 Q. Or do you remember all the bluegil.ls being 5 killed within 48 hours? ' 6 A. T don't remember the detail. 7 Q. At the area where the incinerator used to 8 be, what does it look like now? <9 A. Today? 10 Q. Yes. 11 A. It's a cleared area with crushed white IP. limestone on it. 13 Q. Did Monsanto use some material as absorbents 14 for PCBs in situations where there were spills or leaks, 1 5 that sort of thing? 1 6 A. Certainly. 1 7 Q. What kind of material was used? 18 A. The most common was a clay thatactivated 19 clay bentonite, in particular. We also used a such P0 common thing as sawdust, sand. That pretty well, covers PI i t. 22 Q. What did you do with the sand when you 23 mopped up some PCBs with it? 24 A. Oh, we burried it. We put it in steel drums 25 and then buried it in Monsanto's landfill. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052704 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 331 1 3 4 5 6 7 8 q io 11 12 13 14 15 16 1.7 18 iq 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. What years was that done? A. It was as long as the operation continued. Q. And what is activated clay? A. It's a clay that has the ability to absorb or pick up chemicals readily rather than just filter them and keep them from going through. This actually has a property where the -- in this case, the PC-B.s cling tenaciously to it. Q. T guess I'm a little bit interested. If, for example, in the early 1960s, if you mopped up some PCB fluid with -- in used sand as an absorbant material, why did you out it in steel drums and bury it? A. Because we felt that was the proper thing to do. We sure didn't want to scatter it around all over the back yard. Q. Did you think it was potentially harmful in that situation? A. Well, I don't know that it is considered in those specific terms. It is just a bad practice to treatchemicals that way and it is a common practice in the plant to bury chemicals like PCBs. Q. You've seen some of these commercial absorbing materials that are on the market that you can use if you spill from motor oil from changing the oil in your car, put it on your garage floor and mop it up. that PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052705 Computer Aided Transcription by XScribe 332 1 kind of thing? 2 A. Yes, sir, like kitty litter type thing? 3 O. Sure. Yes. As a matter of fact, 4 vermi culi t.e was used as absorbing material for PCRs also. 5 wasn * t it? 6 A. That's a good material, yes. 7 Q. Did any of your product literature ever 8 advise your customers what to do with any absorbing <3 material that was used to clean up any PCB spill? 1 0 A. T have seen literature that describes the 11 use of proper landfills.' At the moment, I don't recall 1 2 what product line that literature was describing. 1 .8 Q. There wasn't any literature that told your 14 customers that if they had a Pydraul 312 leak in their 1 5 die cast company and they cleaned it up by putting some 1 fi sand on it, that they would have to put it in steel drums 17 and bury it in the landfill, was there? 1 8 A. I haven't seen that. T don't know whether it IS exists or not. 20 MR. CARLSON: That's all the auestions T 7,1 have. I thank you very much. 22 MR. RUNNING: Let's take a break. T may 23 have a little bit of questions. 24 (At this time, there was a short break in the 25 denosition.) PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052706 Computer Aided Transcription by xscribe J.5.-S 1. MR. RUNNING: No questions. 2 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 TO 1T 1.2 18 1.4 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2.9 PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052707 NOTARIAL CERTIFICATE STATE OF MISSOURI ) .) COUNTY OF ST. CHARLES V ss I, NICK! J. MADISON, a Professional Reporter and a duly commissioned Notary Public within and for the State of Missouri, do hereby certify that pursuant to Notice there came before me at the law offices of Caruthers, Herzog, Crebs and McGhee, in the City of St. Louis, state of Missouri, WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, who was by me first duly sworn to testify to the truth and nothing but the truth of all knowledge touching and concerning the matters in controversy in this cause; that the witness was thereupon carefully examined under oath and said examination was reduced to writing by me; that the signature of the witness was waived by agreement of all parties; and that this deposition is a true and correct record of the testimony given by the witness. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and seal this 1.0th day of April, 1991. My commission expires June 27, 1994. Notary Public WATER PCB-SD0000052708