Document 5bX1jx68g2Rr6QB2JyoqpRb08

II I 1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 MDL No. 381 3 4 In re 5 It A G E N T :O R A N G E D e p o s i t i o n of: DR. VAN M U R R A Y SIM 6 Product Liability Litigation 7 I 8 9 T R A N S C R I P T of t e s t i m o n y as t a k e n by and b e f o r e 10 HEYWOOD WAGA, a Certified Shorthand Reporter and 1 1 N o t a r y Pu bl ic of the State of New Jersey, at the 1 2 o f f i c e s o.f M E S S R S . C A D W A L A D E R , W I C K E R S H A M & T A F T , 1 3 1333 Ne w H a m p s h i r e Avenu e NW, Wash i n g t o n , D.C., 14 on W e d n e s d a y , J u n e 30, 1982. c o m m e n c i n g at 1 1 :15 15 in t he f o r e n o o n . 16 17 I 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 t West 4 0 5; N o r th f i e Id A v e n u e Orange, New Jersey 07052 (201) 731-9666 25 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 M E S S R S . W I L L I A M B. L E V I N E a n d M I C H A E L B. G R O S S M A N 4 B Y : W I L L I A M B. L E V I N E , E S Q . For the Plaintiffs 5 MESSRS. ASHCRAFT & GEREL 6 BY: R O B E R T A. T A Y L O R , ESQ. For the Plaintiffs 7 MESSRS. RIVKIN, L E F F , SHERMAN & RADLER 9 BY: LEONARD RIVKIN, ESQ. M A R J O R I E H. F E L D H E I M , ESQ. 9 STANLEY PIERCE, ESQ. For Dow Chemical 10 11 MESSRS. CADWALADER, WICKERSHAM & TAFT BY: M I C H A E L M. G O R D O N , ESQ. l2 For Diamond Shamrock 1 3 MESSRS. KELLEY, DRYE & WARREN BY: W I L L I A M A. K R O H L E Y , ESQ. 14 C H A R L E S M. M A T T I N G L Y , ESQ. For Hercules, Inc. 15 MESSRS. TOWNLEY & UPDIKE 1 6 BY: J A M E S E. T Y R R E L L , JR., ESQ. For Monsanto Company 17 MESSRS. CLARK, GAGLIARDI & MILLER 18 BY: M O R T O N S I L B E R M A N , ESQ. For Thompson Hayward, North American Phillips 19 MESSRS. DUDD, LARNER, KENT, GROSS, 20 P I C I L L O & R O S E N B A U M B Y : E D W A R D R. M A T H H E W S , E S Q 21 A L A N G. WHITE.- ESQ . For Thompson Chemicals 22 MESSRS. ARTHUR, DRY & KALISH 23 BY: M A R I L Y N N E I M A N , E S Q . F o r Uni royal., Inc. 14233 24 25 3 1 i;lHa P 'P E ; A R :A N ` C E S: ( C o n t i n u e d ) 2 j'1; M E S S R S . D I L W O R T H , P A X O N , K A L I 3 H & K A U F F M A N ; i; B Y : J O H N M. F I T Z P A T R I C K , E S Q . 3 ! M For Hooker Chemical i 4 ! JOAN BERNOTT, ESQ. Department:of Justice 5; For the United States of Amer ica 6 :A L S O P R E S E N T : 7 Honorable Sol Schreiber | Special Master 3 M A R T H A A. L U T H E R , P a r a l e g a l 9 Messrs. Ashcraft & Gerel 10 C H A R L E S CAREY, ESQ. Dow Chemical 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 J 4 1 INDEX 2 WITNESS 3 D R . VAN MURRAY SIM 4 Mr.Gordon 11 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 E X H I B I T S 13 NUMBER DESCRIPTION IDENTIFICATION 14 S i m - 1 15 S im-2 16 U n d a t e d L e t t e r w j.t h C u r r i c u l u m V itae fro m Dr. Sim Extract of cwl Special Publication 1-12 14 92 17 S i m - 3 18 Edgewcod Arsenal Technical Report EATR 4210 dated 11/G9 99 19 20 21 22 14235 23 24 25 5 1 J u n e 30 , 1 9S2 . 2 MS . B E R N O T T : I t h i n k we are r e a d y to 3 start; is t h a t r i g h t ? 4 MR . GORDON : Yes. 5 MS . B E R N O T T : The document that I have 6 j u s t p a s s e d o u t is a o n e p a g e d o c u m e n t enti, t i e d " 7 of CWL special p u b l i c a t i o n 1-12 report on trip to 8 Europe dated 5 Oc tobe r 1959." 9 T h i s d o c u m e n t is a n e w l y - t y p e d e x c e r p t 10 from the H o ffman report. I am advised by the 1 1 D e p a r t m e n t of the A r m y that it c o n t a i n s all the 1 2 r e f e r e n c e s to d i o x i n that are c o n t a i n e d in the 13 classified Hoffman report. This material the 14 D e p a r t m e n t of the A r m y w a s a b l e to d e c l a s s i f y . 1 5 As a r e s u l t I am a u t h o r i z e d b o t h to 16 r e l e a s e it to y o u today, and a l s o to p e r m i t the 1 7 w i t n e s s to t e s t i f y as to its c o n t e n t s . H o w e v e r, you 18 s h o u l d be a w a r e of t w o t h i n g s . N u m b e r o n e , the n o t e 19 at the b o t t o m of the p a g e is my h a n d w r i t t e n no t e 20 t h a t I t o o k d o w n to m a k e su r e that T r e m e m b e r e d to 2 1 tell you this is a r e - t y p e from the o r i g i n a l . The 22 o r i g i n a l w a s p o o r l y l e g i b l e . T h i s is f o r y o u r 23 c o n v e n i e n c e . 24 The t h r e e do t s at the b e g i n n i n g of the 2 5 t h i r d p a r a g r a p h s i g n i f y a d e l e t i o n . It a p p e a r s t o 6 1 be a d e l e t i o n of a source. That material alone 2 cannot b e , d e c l a s s i f i e d of the material on this page, 3 i A l t h o u g h I will permi t the w i t n e s s to answer 4 q u e s t i o n s d i r e c t e d to the c o n t e n t of the r e p o r t , it 5 is a l w a y s g o i n g to be w i t h the c a v e a t t h a t if the 6 w i t n e s s knows what went in those little dots, he 7 i c a n n o t t e l l y o u w h a t w e n t t h e r e . a As I say, this is the o n l y m a t e r i a l , and 9 I am a d v i s e d t h i s is the o n l y m a t eria.1 in the 10 H o f f m a n r e p o r t that r e l a t e s in any w a y to d i ox i n. 11 M i k e , d i d y o u h a v e a d d i t i o n a ] q u e s t i o n s ? 12 MR. GORDON: I have a few comments. 13 F i r s t , a l t h o u g h : t h e r e m a y be l e g i b i l i t y p r o b l e m s , 14 d e f e n d a n t s w o u l d r e q u e s t the o r i g i n a l of this 15 . inf o r m a t i o n with the same inf o r m a t i o n redacted for 16 purposes of completion or completeness of the record. 1 7 Also, could you tell me who prepared the 18 ^ r e t y p e d v e r s i o n ? 19 MS. B E R N O T T : I w i l l do w h a t I can. 20 MR. GORDON: Wer e there any 21 r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s o r c o m m e n t s in a n y o t h e r p a r t o f t h e 22 trip r e p o r t c o n c e r n i n g the i n f o r m a t i o n that's on 23 t h i s p a g e ? 24 MS. B E R N O T T : I w i l l a t t e m p t to get 2 5 a n s w er s to those by the end of the day, or by 7 1 tomorrow. 2 MR. GORDON: Do you have any present 3 ';|i n f o r m a t i o n ? 4 MS. B E R N O T T : No. I c a n 't gi v e y o u a n y 5 g u i d a n c e o n e i t h e r o f t h o s e , a l t h o u g h -- I c a n 't, 6 ifo r s u r e . 7 MR. SILBERMAN: I have a question. Do I a gather from what you have said that you have not 9 jseen the r e m a i n d e r of the r e p o r t ? 10 MS. B E R N O T T : T h a t 's c o r r e c t . 11 MR. S I L B E R M A N : T h i s is s o m e t h i n g t h a t 12 you have been advised? 13 J MS. BERNOTT: T h a t 's correct. 14 ; | ! MR. S I L B E R M A N : W h a t is the C W L s p e c i a l 15 ' p u b l i c a t i o n 1 - 1 2 t h a t a p p e a r s a t t h e t o p o f t h e ;M ! 16 ;she e t ? * i 17 ; I MS. BERNOTT: I do not know. 18 ! i; MR. PIERCE: I have a question. When you 19 say y o u h a v e b e e n a d v i s e d t h i s this is the o n l y 20 ; preference to d i o x i n , did you ask if t h e r e w e r e 21 r e f e r e n c e s to R u f a n s , R U F A N S? 22 M S . B E R N O T T : T h e p r o d u c t i o n o f t h i s 23 m a t e r i a l w a s the p h r a s e o l o g y u s e d in y o u r s u b p o e n a . 24 T h i s m a t e r i a l is the o n l y m a t e r i a l in the H o f f m a n 25 r e p o r t t h a t is r e s p o n s i v e to y o u r s u b p o e n a . So I 8 1 w o u l d r e f e r to y o u t h a t s u b p o e n a to w h a t e v e r y o u 2 said . 3 MR. S I L BE RMAN: G oing back to that CWL 4 reference, could you find that out for me? 5 MS. B E R N O T T : Yes, I made a note of it. 6 MR. GO RDON: W o u l d the record also 7 r e f l e c t t h a t the w i t n e s s w h o is to be d e p o s e d t o d a y , 8 Dr. Sim, is c u r r e n t l y o u t s i d e of this room. 9 MS. BERNOTT: I guess we can invite hi m 10 back . 1 1 MR. MATT HEWS: One question. The U that 1 2 refers to report on trip to Europe, does that U 13 a p p e a r on t h e d o c u m e n t i t s e l f . 14 MS. B E R N O T T : Y o u a s k e d for the o r i g i n a l . 15 If I c a n p r o d u c e it for you, t h a t w i l l be t h e a n s w e r 16 to the q u e s t i o n . O n e w a y or a n o t h e r , I w i l l try to 1 7 j f i n d o u t . It m a y n o t b e. T h a t U, as y o u k n o w , 18 Is o m e t i m e s is c l a s s i f i e d a s u n c l a s s i f i e d . W e w i l l 19 see. 20 MS. FELDHEIM: Am I to u n d e r s t a n d that 21 ^ b e g i n n i n g w i t h , " R e p o r t o n t r i p t o E u r o p e " t o t h e 22 b o t t o m of the pag e , t h a t t h i s is a d i r e c t c o p y of 23 ;the H o f f m a n r e p o r t j u s t w i t h a d e d a c t i o n w h e r e t h e 238 24 d o t s are? 2 5 MS. B E R N O T T : I d o n 't k n o w if it was the 9 1 first p a g e or not. I k n o w it was t h a t m a t e r i a l in 2 the Hoffman report. 3 'I ' M S . F E L D II0 1 M: A r e p r o d u c t i o n o f t h e 4 H o f f m a n r e p o r t and the o n l y t h i ng s t ha t is 5 left o u t -- 6 MS. B E R N O T T : Those dots. 7 M R . R I V K I N : I don't want you to be 3 c o r n e r e d i n t o s o m e t h i n g . I d i d n ' t u n d e r s t a n d it 9 t h at way. Is this- a c o n t i g u o u s r e a d i n g of the 10 d o c u m e n t t h a t y o u t o o k it from, or a r e t h e s e 11 extracts of paragraphs and subjects? 12 M S. B E R N O T T : M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is t h a t it 1 3 is a c o n t i g u o u s r e ad in g. A s s u m i n g I can p r o d u c e the 14 o r i g i n a l , th a t w o u l d be v e r i f i e d that way. 15 | j .! 16 MR.RIVKIN: MR. GORDON: Thank you. Along with the original of 17 - t h i s i n f o r m a t i o n , can we a l s o h a v e the c o v e r s h e e t pji- i j V ! 18 M f o r the t r i p report' w i t h the d i s t r i b u t i o n ? ij 19 !:| M MS. BERNOTT: Prob a b l y not, but I will 2 0 s e e . ' I t h i n k it: is c l a s s i f i e d . I \: ; 21 M R . R I V K I N : A r e y o u in a p o s i t i o n t o t e l l 22 us h o w long, h o w :many pages the report was? 23 ; | MS. BERNOTT: I cannot. 142^9 24 | ; M R . R I V K I N : C o u l d y o u f i n d o u t f o r "us , 2 5 ple as e , w h e n it was u n c l a s s i f i e d or d e c l a s s i f i e d ? ...i 10 1 MS. E E R N O T T : Well, I am a u t h o r i z e d to 2 give it to you now. 3 M R . R I V K I N : I'd like to k n o w w h e n it was 4 d e c l a s s i f i e d , if yo u c o u l d h e l p me. I w o u l d 5 appreciate that. 6 MS. FELDHEIM: I guess I have anot her 7 question. The "provided me", does the "mean" refer 8 to H o f f m a n ? Is t h i s a r e p o r t b y H o f f m a n in the 9 first person? 10 M S . B E R N O T T : I w i l l s e e if I c a n g e t t h e 1 1 a n s w e r . W h e r e is t h a t w o r d ? 1 2 MS. FELDHEIM: Right above -- right after 13 the d o t s . 14 MS. B E R N O T T : Okay. 1 5 MR. GORDON: ;i j 1i ' : ! 16 : o f t h e r e f e r e n c e s . And the "me" right in front 17 MS. B E R N O T T : W h y d o n ' t we go a h e a d . 18 M a y b e S i m can h e l p y o u w i t h s o m e of t h e s e . If not, 19 dand if y o u h a v e o t h e r q u e s t i o n s later, let m e ' k n o w . 'iI 20 S o m e b o d y c a n c a l l h i m b a c k in, p e r h a p s . 2 1 MR. G O R D O N : W h e r e is he? 2 2 MS. BERN OTT: He stepp ed out of the room. 23 I a s s u m e he is s i t t i n g o u t s i d e w a i t i n g for s o m e b o d y 24 to call h i m 1 4 O hi03 25 11 1 .:D R . V A M M u l R R A Y S I M, 1 6 1 5 T a i l g a t e R o a d , 2 Bel Air, M a r y l a n d, sworn, t e s t i f i e d as follows: 3 '' ^ D IRECT E X A M I N A T I O N B Y M R . G O R D O N : 4 Q . 1 Good morning, Dr. Sim. Are you 5 ` represented here today by legal counsel? 6 !|i ' i' MS. BERNOTT: I am going to direct him 7 not to answ er the q u es t i o n . Must I go t h r o u g h this 8 again? 9 i MR. G O R D O N : My u n d e r s t a n d i n g is t h a t 1 0 : you can d i r e c t h i m not to a n s w e r q u e s t i o n s 11 c o n c e r n i n g s t a t e s e c r e t s , b u t t h i s is n o t a q u e s t i o n i 12 "concerning state secrets. 13 MS. B E R N O T T : T h e n we d i s a g r e e . 14 l !:| Q . 'i , ! 15 'M;; Dr. Sim -- MS.BERNOTT: I d i r e c t e d you not to 16 a n s w e r . 17 | ;| Q* Dr. Sim, do you u n d e r s t a n d the q u e s t i o n ? 18 MS. B E R N O T T : Y o u can a n s w e r the q u e s t i o n . .i i 19 A.i R e p e a t t h e q u e s t i o n . 2 0 :ii ;I Q* Are you represented here today by legal 21 counsel? 22 '/:! MS. BERNOTT: T h e q u e s t i o n is, do yo u 23 u n d e r s t a n d the q u e s t i o n . I` < an s X 4 < 5 ,-iJL 24 A.!' I d o n ' t k n o w w h e t h e r I a m o r not. !| 25 Q. W h a t i n f o r m a t i o n w o u l d y o u n e e d to Sim i2 1 determine whether you are represented by legal 2 : counsel? 3 MS. B E R N O T T : T h i s is r i d i c u l o u s . I am 4 . d i r e c t i n g h i m not to a n s w e r and ask you to s to p 5 q-uestioning. He is h e r e as a fact w i t n e s s . His 6 r e l a t i o n s h i p w i t h m e a n d h i s legal c o u n s e l is *"/T ; e x t r a n e o u s to t h i s , d e p o s i t i o n a n d i r r e l e v a n t t o t h i s 8 I lawsuit. I am di r e c t i n g him not to answer for lots 9 of d i f f e r e n t r e a s o n s . W h y not get on w i t h it. 10 Q. At t h e d i r e c t i o n of M i s s B e r n o t t , do y o u 11 c h o o s e to a n s w e r my q u e s t i o n ? 1 2 MS. BERNOTT: No. I will not all ow him 13 to a n s w e r t h a t q u e s t i o n . Go on. 14 Q. Dr. Sim, w e r e y o u s e r v e d w i t h a s u b p o e n a 15 : r e q u e s t i n g y o u r a t t e n d a n c e at t h i s d e p o s i t i o n ? 1 6 iA. I w a s . 17 . ' Q- D i d you. b r i n g w i t h y o u t o d a y a n y of t h e 18 d o c u m e n t s r e q u e s t e d in the s c h e d u l e a t t a c h e d to t ha t 19 s u b p o e n a ? 2 0 iA . N o n e . 2 1 Q Do y o u h a v e a n y d o c u m e n t s in y o u r 22 : p o s s e s s i o n that are r e s p o n s i v e to that s c h e d u l e ? 23 A . N o n e . 24 Q* P l e a s e u n d e r s t a n d t h a t y o u s h o u l d - l e t me 2 5 k n o w that at any time you s h o u l d need to h a v e a Sim 13 1 ;q u e s t i o n c l a r i f i e d t o d a y o r e x p a n d u p o n a n a n s w e r 2 already given during the course of this deposition. 3 :Is t h a t cl e a r ? i 4 !A . T h a t 's c l e a r . 5 Q. Di d y o u m e e t w i t h M i s s B e r n o t t or a n y o n e i 6 else in p r e p a r a t i o n for y o u r e x a m i n a t i o n h e r e t o d a y ? 7 MS. B E R N O T T : I w il l d i r e c t him not to 8 answer that question. 9 i \M MR. G O R D O N : On w h a t groun.d? 10 MS. B E R N O T T : B e c a u s e it is a r i d i c u l o u s 11 q u e s t i o n . 12 M R . G O R D O N : I d o n ' t t h i n k y o u c a n d i r e c t 13 'him n o t to a n s w e r b e c a u s e it is r i d i c u l o u s . 114 : ; i 1| MS. BERN OT T: Ask me that q u e s t i o n at the 1 5 ' h e a r i n g t h i s ' a f t e r n o o n . 16 ! MR. GORDON: Note that wit h a paper clip. 17 Q. V7ere y o u s h o w n a n y d o c u m e n t s in 18 p r e p a r a t i o n for y o u r d e p o s i t i o n h e r e t o d a y ? 1 9 MS. BERNOTT: You can answer. 2 0 iA .' N o . 21 : Q. Did y o u r e v i e w a n y m a t e r i a l s in 22 p r e p a r a t i o n f o r y o u r d e p o s i t i o n h e r e t o d a y ? 23 A . N o . 24 Q. Did y o u b r i n g w i t h you t o d a y a c o p y of a 25 c u r r i c u l u m v i t a e or a job r e s u m e '? Sim 14 1 .A . N o . 2 M R . G O R D O N : P l e a s e m a r k as S i m E x h i b i t 1, 3 Mr. Reporter, a cover letter undated from Van M . Sim 4 with an attached c u r r i c u l u m vitae c o n s i s t i n g of five 5 pages. 6 (Exhibit Sim-1, mar k e d for identification) 7 Q. H a v e y o u s e e n S i m E x h i b i t 1 b e f o r e ? 8 A. I g a v e it to y o u . 9 Q. D i d y o u p r e p a r e i t ? 10 A . I d id . 1 1 Q.- D o e s i t a c c u r a t e l y d e s c r i b e y o u r 1 2 educational background and work experience? 13 : A . Correct. 14 Q. Dr. Sim, c o u l d y o u s p e a k up a l i t t l e m o r e 1 5 :so th e p e o p l e in t h e b a c k o f t h e r o o m c a n h e a r y o u . .; ;i 16 : A . C o r r e c t . 17 Q . T h a n k y o u . 18 Are' y o u c u r r e n t l y e m p l o y e d ? 19 A. I am n o t . .` l 20 ! Q Have you ever b e e n e m p l o y e d at E d g e w o o d t' 21 Arsenal, in M a r y l a n d ? 22 :A . I have . 23 I Q W h e n did you f i r s t b e g i n w o r k i n g at 2 4 iE d g e w o o d ? 14244 25 A. 1954 i n i t i a l l y , and in 1 9 5 6 I r e t u r n e d f r o m the S ira ! 15 1 United Kingdom. 2 Q . On y o u r r e t u r n f r o m the U n i t e d K i n g d o m in 3 1956, did you again begin w o r k i n g at Edq e w o o d ? 4 A.. C o r r e c t . 5 ';! Q. W h a t was y o u r p o s i t i o n at that time? 6 :A.| C h i e f o f C l i n i c a l R e s e a r c h D i v i s i o n . 7 MR. K R O H L E Y : K e e p your v o i c e up, p l e a s e . 8 Q. W h a t w a s t h e C l i n i c a l R e s e a r c h D i v i s i o n ? 9 :A.. T h e C l i n i c a l R e s e a r c h D i v i s i o n w a s s e t u p to 10 : 'study the effects of p r o p h y l a c t i c and t h e r a p e u t i c 11 c o m p o u n d s f o r t r e a t m e n t o f c h e m i c a l m a t e r i a l s . 1 2 I !| Q. W h a t a c t i v i t i e s w e r e p e r f o r m e d in t h e 1 3 C l i n i c a l R e s e a r c h D i v i s i o n to ful f i l l that p u r p o s e ? 1 4 A . All n e c e s s a r y a c t i v i t i e s to a s c e r t a i n w h e t h e r 15 a n y c o m p o u n d w a s s a f e to g i v e to m a n a n d w i t h | ;i ' i ! 16 appropriate p r o c e d u r e s to a d m i n i s t e r the c o m p o u n d to ;i !| 17 :v o l u n t e e r s . 18 Q . B r i e f l y w h a t did tho s e n e c e s s a r y 19 c o n s i s t of? > 20 A . E v e r y t h i n g , e v e r y t h i n g t h a t w o u l d be foui^d in 'X 21 a n y d r u g c o m p a n y of a n y m a j o r size, a n y 22 p h a r m a c e u t i c a l c o m p a n y o f a n y m a j o r s i z e t h a t 1 s 23 r e q u i r e d t o p u t t h e c o m p o u n d o n t h e m a r k e t as a, V i )l^ 24 and D r u g - a p p r o v e d m a t e r i a l . 25 Q. So is it a c c u r a t e to s t a t e t h a t t h e Sim 16 1 C l i n i c a l R e s e a r c h D i v i s i o n w o u l d sr y a g a in the same 2 .types of testing as any major p h a r m a c e u t i c a l concern; 3 that w a n t e d to put a d r u g on the mar net? 4 A . Correct. 5 Q. W a s the C l i n i c a l R e s e a r c h D i v i s i o n p a r t 6 of a n y o t h e r o r g a n i z a t i o n at Edge'/;cod? ! 7 !A. N o . I t w a s p a r t o f t h e C h e m i c a l R e s e a r c h a n d 8 Development Laboratories. 9 Q. W h o w a s in c h a r g e of the C h e m i c a l 1 0 'R e s e a r c h a n d D e v e l o p m e n t L a b o r a t o r i e s in 1 9 5 6 ? 1 1 ;A . S e y m o u r D. S i l v e r . 1 2 Q. W h a t w a s Dr. S i l v e r ' s f o r m a l t i t l e ? 13 iA . Scientific Director. 14 i Q. W h o d i d Dr. S i l v e r r e p o r t to? 15 A . C o m m a n d i n g ;G e n e r a l . :i ;\ . 16 :i1! i]ii:fi;; Q. Is that . the Commanding General at 17 Edgewood? 18 A . T he C o m m a n d i n g G e n e r a l at E d g e w o o d . 1 9 Q . In 1956 , who wa s the -- 2 0 I c a n t. t e l l y o u . 21 Q D o y o u r e c a l l a n y o f t h e C o m m a n d i n g 22 G e n e r a l s a t E d g e w o o d ? 23 ;A-.; G e n e r a l C r e a s e y . 1 4 **^ 24 Q. S p e l l t h a t for the r e p o r t e r , p l e a s e . 25 A . C R E A S E Y . Sim, 1 1 :| Q. 17 Do you kno w when General C r e a s e y serve d 2 as C o m m a n d i n g G e n e r a l ? 3 A. I don't remember the dates. 4 j i| Q. Did he s erv e as C o m m a n d i n g G e n e r a l in the 5 1960s at all? 6 iA. N o t a t E d g e w o o d . 7 Q. Do y o u k n o w w h o s e r v e d as C o m m a n d i n g 8 General at E d g ewood in the 1960s? 9 : 1A . N o . I w o u l d n o t t e l l y o u b e c a u s e I w o u l d b e 10 wrong with the dates associated with that. You can 11 ,f i n d it in t h e r e c o r d . 1 2 Q. W h i c h r e c o r d w o u l d y o u s u g g e s t t h a t I 13 l o o k at? 14 . A .i C h i e f c h e m i c a l o f f i c e r s r e c o r d . 15 Q. W h o w a s t h e C h i e f C h e m i c a l O f f i c e r at the . ! i ' 16 ; t i m e y o u b e c a m e C h i e f of the C l i n i c a l R e s e a r c h 17 : Division? ;| 18 ,A.j C r e a s e y w a s s h o r t l y t h e r e a f t e r . 19 | | :: Q . Wh ere was the Chief Chemical Officer's 20 sta ti on? .! : j 21 Ail W a s h i n g t o n . 22 M : Q* Do y o u r e c a l l w h e r e in W a s h i n g t o n h i s 23 ; o f f i c e s w e r e l o c a t e d ? 24 A v 'G r a v e l e y P o i n t . ^_ 14247 25 Q Is G r a v e l e y P o i n t the n a m e of a s u b u r b or Sim 18 1 office building? 2 A. R i g h t in b a c k of W a s h i n g t o n N a t i o n a l A i r p o r t 3 b e f o r e it was flat. 4 Q. So it w as an o f f i c e c o m p l e x ? 5 A.. Y e s . 6 Q. W h o r e p o r t e d to y o u w h e n y o u w e r e C h i e f 7 of the Clinical, Research Division? 8 1!A !.^ M y c h i e f s 'of b r a n c h e s . 9 Q. A r e t h o s e t h p e o p l e t h a t r e p o r t e d to y o u ? 10 A . Yes. 11 Q. W h o w e r e t h e c h i e f s o f the v a r i o u s 12 b ranche s? 13 A . T h e y v a r i e d . 14 Q. W h y d o n ' t y o u t e l l us, f i r s t , w h a t the 15 vari o u s b r a nches were. 16 A. W e l l , w e h a d C l i n i c a l I n v e s t i g a t i o n B r a n c h , 1 7 Laboratory Branch, Psychology Branch and Neurology 18 and N e u r o p h a r m a c o l o g y . 1 9 Q. W e r e t h e r e a n y o t h e r b r a n c h e s at t h a t 20 time? 21 A. N o t at t h a t t i m e . 22 MR. L E V I N E : W h e n are we t a l k i n g a b o u t ? 23 MR. G O R D O N : 1 9 5 6 w h e n Dr. S i m b e c a m e 24 C h i e f of C l i n i c a l R e s e a r c h . 25 Q . W a s t h e r e a T o x i c o l o g y D i v i s i o n at t h a t Sim 19 1 time? 2 A. 3 :|; Yes. Q. Was there a P h y s i o l o g y Branch at that 4 time? 5A Physiology Division. 6 Q. W i t h i n t h e C l i n i c a l R e s e a r c h D i v i s i o n , if 7 understand you, there was a Clinical 8 I n v e s t i g a t i o n s Branch, a L a b o r a t o r y Branch, an 9 P s y c h o l o g y Br a n c h and a N e u r o l o g y Branch, an 10 N e u r o p h a r m a c o l o g y B r a n c h and a T o x i c o l o g y Bra nch? 11 A . . No. 1 2 Q. T o x i c o l o g y w a s a d i v i s i o n , a l s o ? 1 3 ;A i T o x i c o l o g y was a s e p a r a t e d i v i s i o n . N e u r o l o g y 14 .and n e u r o p h a r m a c o l o g y w e r e t o g e t h e r . 1 5 Q . As one branch? 16 jA.*.- Y e s . ! `1 .j ; ; : 17 H Q. H o w long did you s e r v e as C h i e f of the 18 C l i n i c a l R e s e a r c h D i v i s i o n ? 19 A .: F r o m 1 9 5 6 t o 1 9 6 1 . 20 j Q. Were you associated with the Clinical 21 Research D i v i s i o n at any time a f ter that? 2 2 A.| I w a s D e p u t y D i r e c t o r a n d S c i e n t i f i c D i r e c t o r 23 a n d C h i e f R e s e a r c h P h y s i c i a n at the l a b o r a t o r y . 24 Q. Of w h i c h l a b o r a t o r y ? 25 A . B i o m e d i c a l L a b o r a t o r y . Sim 20 1 M R . LE\/INTE: S p e l l t h a t . 2 A . Biomedical. 3 Q. W a s :t h e C l i n i c a l R e s e a r c h D i v i s i o n p a r t 4 of the Biomedical Laboratory? 5 A. C o r r e c t . 6 Q. W h o w a s in c h a r g e of the B i o m e d i c a l 7 Labora tory? a A. T h e C o m m a n d i n g O f f i c e r w a s a l w a y s a C o l o n e l of 9 the Surgeon General, Medical Corps. i o Q. D i d y o u r e p o r t to the C h i e f of the 11 B i o m e d i c a l L a b o r a t o r y ? 12 A . Y e s . 13 Q. On w h a t s o r t s of m a t t e r s d i d y o u r e p o r t 14 to the Chief of the B i o m e d i c a l L a b o r a t o r y ? 1 5 A. I d o n 't u n d e r s t a n d y o u r q u e s t i o n . 1 6 Q. I b e l i e v e y o u t e s t i f i e d e a r l i e r t h a t y o u 17 r e p o r t e d to S e y m o u r S i l v e r w h o was S c i e n t i f i c 18 D i r e c t o r . 19 A. Y e s , b u t of C h e m i c a l R e s e a r c h a n d D e v e l o p m e n t 20 Laboratory,1 of which Biomedical was a part. 21 Q. D i d the C h i e f of the B i o m e d i c a l 22 L a b o r a t o r y a l s o r e p o r t to S e y m o u r S i l v e r ? 23 A. C o r r e c t . 24 Q. On s o m e o c c a s i o n s d i d y o u r e p o r t to 25 Seymour Silver and on other occasions did you report 21 1 'to t h e C h i e f o f t h e B i o m e d i c a l L a b o r a t o r y ? 2 A. I r e p o r t e d to b o t h of them. 3 Q. On w h a t t y p e s of m a t t e r s w o u l d y o u r e p o r t 4 to o ne as o p p o s e d to the o t h e r ? 5 :A . I w o u l d n 't . 6 Q. W h a t d e t e r m i n e d w h e t h e r y o u r e p o r t e d to 7 'Dr. S i l v e r r a t h e r t h a n t h e C h i e f o f t h e B i o m e d i c a l 8 Laboratory? 9 ;A .: W e l l , t h e y u s u a l l y h a d a m e e t i n g t o g e t h e r . 10 Q. W h a t w a s the s u b j e c t of y o u r m e e t i n g s 11 w i t h Dr. S i l v e r and c h i e f of the B i o m e d i c a l 12 Laboratory? 13 A. I d o n ' t u n s t a n d y o u r q u e s t i o n w h e n y o u s a y t h a t . 14 Q. Y o u s t a t e d t h a t y o u u s u a l l y r e p o r t e d to 15 Dr. S i l v e r an d the C h i e f of the- B i o m e d i c a l ,11 6 ' L a b o r a t o r y t o g e t h e r . W h a t m a t t e r s d i d y o u r e p o r t o n ? ! 17 A.: A n y t h i n g t h a t h a d to do w i t h the C l i n i c a l 18 R e s e a r c h D i v i s i o n , any p r o t o c o l , any p r o b l e m s , 19 a n y t h i n g else. 20 | Q. What were the other divisions within the 21 B i o m e d i c a l L a b o r a t o r y ? 2 2 A.: T o x i c o l o g y , b i o p h y s i c s , p h y s i o l o g y , v e t e r i n a r y 23 m e d i c i n e . 24 ! Q* Any others? 25 A . No . Sim I 22 1 Q. Vas t h e r e an e n v i r o n m e n t a l t e s t i n g 2 :d i v i s i o n ? 3 A. T h a t w a s u n d e r p h y s i o l o g y . N o t a d i v i s i o n . It 4 was a branch. 5 Q. W a s t h e r e an E n t o m o l o g y D i v i s i o n ? 6 A. T h e r e u s e d to be b u t it p h a s e d out. T h e r e w a s 7 an e n t o m o l o g y b r a n c h for a short p e r i o d of time, and 8 that was phased out. 9 Q. W h a t w a s the e n t o m o l o g y b r a n c h a p a r t of? 1O A. T h e e n t o m o l o g y b r a n c h o r i g i n a l l y w a s a p a r t o f 11 P h y s i o l o g y D i v i s i o n . It w o u n d up as a b i o c h e m i c a l 12 o p e r a t i o n . 13 ! Q. W h o w a s in c h a r g e of the T o x i c o l o g y 1 4 ID i v i s i o n d u r i n g : t h e t i m e p e r i o d 1 9 5 5 t o 1 9 5 1 ? 15 :A . E u g e n e K r a c k o w , K R A C K 0 W. ' ,f * 16 Q.. Do y o u k n o w w h o Dr. K r a c k o w 1s s u c c e s s o r ;!!<:! ; ; : j' ; 1 7 d,|wa s ? ' ' 18 ;a . B e r n a r d , P. :M c N a m a r a 1 9 i : Q. W h e n - d i d Dr. M c N a m a r a s u c c e e d Dr. K r a c k o w : 2 0 [A... I ' m n o t. c e r t a i n . I t h i n k it w a s 1 9 6 1 o r 1 9 6 2 . 21 ; Q. F o r h o w l o n g d i d Dr M c N a m a r a r e m a i n h e a d 2 2 jo.f T o x i c o l o g y ? 23 ;A.: U n t i l h e d i e d . Q.24 W h e n w a s t h a t ? 14205K9hi 25 A . 1981. i . * Sim | ' i l I ; 1 ..| '| Q. 23 What were the various branches within the 2 jToxicology Division? 'i :i 3 ;A.' W e l l , t h e y v a r i e d . Overall I'd say there were 4 ''three b r a n c h e s : j A n A n i m a l T e s t i n g B r a n c h , a n 5 'Aerosol Branch and what they later called a I : ; 6 ^Physiological Toxicology Branch. i |; ;i : i 7| Q. Physiological Toxicology Branch? 8 A . Yes. 9 Q. W h a t w a s the f u n c t i o n of the A n i m a l 1O Testing Branch? 11 ;A. D u e to t h e p r i m a r y t e s t i n g o f c o m p o u n d s o n 1 2 several species of animals. 13 !; Q. W h i c h s p e c i e s w e r e used in a n i m a l testing: 14 |A. At l e a s t s e v e n . 15 i'! Q. Could you identify the species? 1 6 !A . A t l e a s t t w o s p e c i e s o f r o d e n t s , o r t h r e e M. 17 'ispecies of r o d e n t s . It w a s rats, m i c e , r a b b i t s , ;j ' i 18 'guinea p i g s . T h a t ' s f o u r o f t h a t . T h e r e w e r e d o g s 19 and f i n a l l y m o n k e y . 20 ! ' Q. W h a t t y p e of m o n k e y ? 21 A . | ; i 2 2 1' ! M R h e s i s , M a c c a q u e , C e b u s , C E B U S. Q. W h a t d i d p r i m a r y t e s t i n g c o n s i s t of? ;:| ;| 23 A . I n i t i a l L D 5 0 s , l e t h a l d o s e f i f t i e s . 24 I Q. Were any other primary 14253 25 A. S k i n , o r a l , i n t r a v e n o u s , i n t r a m u s c u l a r . "1 Sim 24 1 Q. H o w w a s it d e t e r m i n e d w h i c h t y p e of 2 :p r i m a r y testing^ to use? 3 [A. U s u a l l y t h e y w e r e a l l i n t r a v e n o u s . T h e y 4 : s t a r t e d w i t h i n t r a v e n o u s , b u t it w a s d o n e b y at 5 least four routes: Percutaneous, orally, 6 :intravenously and intramuscularly. 7 ; : Q. Who was in ch ar g e of the Ani ma l T e s t i n g 8 ;Branch from 1956 to 1961? 9 A. F r e d O b e r s t . < 10 Q. O B E R S T ? 11 A . R i g h t . 12 i Q. W h o s u c c e e d e d Dr. O b e r s t ? 1 3 ;A. T h e f u n c t i o n o f t h a t b r a n c h .was c h a n g e d . M r . j: 14 |Owens a s s u m e d it. It was E d m o n d O w e n s . 1 5 :|v' Q. At what time did Edmond Owens take over 1 6 ;if r o m Dr . O b e r s t ? 17 A. I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r . I t h i n k it was. a b o u t 1 9 7 0 or 18 1969 . 19 Q. W a s Dr. O b e r s t in c h a r g e up u n t i l a b o u t 2 0 i1 9 6 9 o r 1 9 7 0 ? 21 jA. S o m e t h i n g l i k e t h a t . 22 Q. W h e r e d i d Dr. O b e r s t go at that t i m e ? 23 A . He r e t i r e d . 24 Q* Do y o u k n o w w h e r e Dr. O b e r s t n o w l i v e s ? 2 5 A. I t h i n k he l i v e s in F l o r i d a . 1.4 O 4 Sim 1 Q. Do you have any idea which town? 25 2 hi I h a v e n o i d e a . 3 Q. Do y o u k n o w a b o u t h o w m a n y e m p l o y e e s w e r e 4 w o r k i n g in the A n i m a l T e s t i n g B r a n c h d u r i n g the 5 ;1960s? 6 :A . T h e o n l y f i g u r e I c a n g i v e y o u is an 7 a p p r o x i m a t e one for T o x i c o l o g y as a whole, and it 8 was a b o u t 60. ( ;j 9 i i Q . A b o u t 6 0? 10 A Y e s . 11 Q. U n t i l he s u c c e e d e d D r . O b e r s t , d i d D r . 12 O w e n s w o r k u n d e r Dr. O b e r s t ? 13 A.; N o . H e w o r k e d in A e r o s o l . 14 i ' Q. Do you recall the names of any employees 15 Ithat w o r k e d u n d e r Dr. O b e r s t d u r i n g the 1 9 6 0 s ? ji 16 A . I don't, but some of them are still there. 17 Q. Bu t y o u d o n ' t r e c a l l a n y n a m e s ? 18 A . I d o n ' t rec al l any names. 19 1'. || Q Did the p e r s o n in c h a r g e of a n i m a l 20 t e s t i n g r e p o r t to Dr. K r a c k o w or Dr. M c N a m a r a ? 21 A.! Y e s . 22 Q. W h a t did the A e r o s o l B r a n c h do? 23 A.! : A e r o s o l w o r k . 149! 24 Q. W h a t d i d a e r o s o l w o r k c o n s i s t of? 25 A . P u t t i n g up the m a t e r i a l as a p a r t i c u l a t e or as Sim' 26 1 ! a vapor, and exposing animal. 2 ,| Q. Was t h e r e w o r k p e r f o r m e d in c o n n e c t i o n i :! :; 3 with i n v e s t i g a t i o n of p o s s i b l e d i s s e m i n a t i o n i 1 4 techniques? 5 , h. P o s s i b l e . ;! 6 i Q. What would be the other purposes for the j ,; ''. ii 7 :aerosol work? 8 A. T o x i c i t y . 9 Q. In o t h e r w o r d s , d i s p e r s i o n in the a i r 10 would be tested as a p o s s i b l e means of e x p osing 11 p o p u l a t i o n s to a p a r t i c u l a r a g e n t ? 12 A . Yes. 1 3 Q. D u r i n g th e 1 9 6 0 s w h o w a s in c h a r g e of the 14 A e r o s o l B r a n c h ? 15 !A . Edmond Owens most of the time. : ; i 16 Q. Do you recal l d u r i n g what time p e r i o d he 17 :w a s in c h a r g e ? 18 |A. I w o u l d g u e s s f r o m -- I 'm n o t g u e s s i n g . I 19 d o n 't k n o w . I t :w a s 1965, I t h ink. It w a s 196 5 on 20 until his death. 1 21 I 1t Q. W he n di d Dr. O w e n s die? 22 d|A. 1981. 23 Q. W a s he s t i l l w o r k i n g at E d g e w o o d at the \:;24 ijtime o f ;h i s d e a t h ? 25 ;;A . . . Y e s . 1425& Sim 27 1 Q Do you k n o w who Dr. Owens* p r e d e c e s s o r 2 h ad b e e n in A e r o s o l ? 3 A l T h e r e a c t u a l l y h a d n 't b e e n one b e c a u s e it had 4 b e e n O b e r s t . It had b e e n a c o m b i n e d b r a n c h . 5 Q . In 1965, had animal testing and aerosol / 6 been spli t apart? 7 A. Ye s . 8 ; ;: q. Do you know the reason for making that 9 hion? 10 A . No . 11 Q . W h a t d i d the P h y s i o l o g i c a l T o x i c o l o g y 1 2 Branch do? 13 A. It s t u d i e d m e c h a n i s m s of t o x i c i t y . 14 -1 ; Q15 s tud ied ? How were those mechanisms of toxicity 16 ? 18 A . In a ni m al s, in tissue c ul ture , in o r g a n c u lt u r e , j: ba.cteria]};.C:ulture .l;i;i-v': .3 I:1, i ; ' Q Were there, any p a r t i c u l a r names for the 19 t e s t s t h a t w e r e !p e r f o r m e d ? i; 2 0 . :A:. T h e r e were,, yes, but t h e y w e r e all the s t a n d a r d 21 o nes of t h at m o m e n t that w e r e s t a n d a r d in that 22 , mat e r i a l . ! 23 Q. S t a n d a r d h i s t o l o g y t e s t s ? 24 A . : Yes, all the s t a n d a r d thi ng s that wer e c o m mo n 25 up to t h a t da t e . X1 S.9fa ^3 Sim 11 Q. 28 D u r i n g t h e 1 9 6 0 s w h o w j s in c h a r g e o f 2 .p h y s io lo g ic a l toxicolog y? 3 : A. F r a n k V o c c i , V 0 C C I. 4 Q. Is F r a n k V o c c i s t i l l at E d g e w o o d ? 5 A. Wo. 6 Q. D i d he r e t i r e ? 7 A. He is at t h e F o o d a n d Drug. 8 Q. W h e n d i d Mr. V o c c i go to the F o o d and * 9 Drug Administration? 10 A. I ' m n o t c e r t a i n . I t h i n k 1 9 7 5 . 11 Q. D o y o u r e c a l l w h o Mr. V o c c i 1s p r e d e c e s s o r 12 h a d b e e n in p h y s i o l o g i c a l t o x i c o l o g y ? 1 3 \A T h e r e h a d n ' t b e e n o n e . 14 Q. W h e n w a s the P h y s i o l o g i c a l T o x i c o l o g y 1 5 Branch formed? 16 : A . S o m e w h e r e b e t w e e n 1953 and a r o u n d that time. 17 :ii Q. What did the Biophysics Division do? 18 A. T h e y w e r e r e s p o n s i b l e for b l a s t and t r a u m a 19 s t u d i e s . 20 Q. W h a t d i d the P h y s i o l o g y D i v i s i o n d o ? 2 1 ;A. T h e y w e r e r e s p o n s i b l e f o r p h y s i o l o g y , 22 environmental p h y s i o l o g y and p h a r m a c o l o g y and 23 t e u r o p h a r m a c o l o g y . 24 Q. W h a t w a s e n v i r o n m e n t a l -- 25 A. A n d b i o c h e m i c a l , b i o c h e m i s t r y . 4 S' Sim 29 1 Q. W h a t w a s e n v i r o n m e n t a l ph y s i o l o g y ? 2 A . Heat and cold, 3 Q. W h a t d i d the v e t e r i n a r y m e d i c i n e d o ? ,I 4 A . Supplied animals and took care of them. 5 Q. W a s it b a s i c a l l y an a n i m a l h u s b a n d r y ? 6 A . Basically a service. 7 Q. R e t u r n i n g to the C l i n i c a l R e s e a r c h 8 Division. 9 .A Yes. 10 Q . W h a t d id the C l i n i c a l 1 1 ,d o ? Bran 1 2 A. T h e y w e r e r e s p o n s i b l e for all s t u d i e s in m a n . 1 3 Q. D u r i n g t h e 1 9 6 0 s w h o w a s in c h a r g e of t h e 14 ;Clinical I n v e s t i g a t i o n s B r a n c h ? 15 A. T h e r e w e r e ;s e v e r a l . D r . K i m u r a , K I M U R A. 16 i Q H o w long did Dr. K i m u r a s e r v e as C h i e f of 17 Clinical Investigation? :| 18 ,A ,\. F i v e y e a r s .I 19 I Q. 'i ; ! Do you recall when he left? 20 A A p p r o x i m a t e l y 1965. 21 MR. K R O H L E Y : S p e a k up, p l e a s e . :i 2 2 .:A:.: A p p r o x i m a t e l y 1 9 6 5 . 2 3 Q. W h o w a s Dr. K i m u r a ' s s u c c e s s o r ? 24 A . ! L i e u t e n a n t C o l o n e l J a m e s K e t c h u m . `13 2 5 Q. H o w l o n g d i d L i e u t e n a n t C o l o n e l Ke t c h u m Sim 1 s e r ve as C h i e f of C l i n i c a l I n v e s t i g a t i o n s ? 30 2 A. F i v e y e a r s . 3 Q Until 1970? 4 A . About. 5 Q Who succeeded Ketchum? 6 A . Dr . F r e d S idd el 1 . 7 Q. S E I D E L ? 8 A. S I D D E L L. 9 Q. W h a t d i d the L a b o r a t o r y B r a n c h of 10 C l i n i c a l Re se ar c h do? 11 A . A 1 1 t h e n e c e s s a r y h u m a n t e s t i n g , b l o o d 12 u r i n e , b l o o d c h e m i s t r y . 1 3 Q. W h o w a s in c h a r g e of the l a b o r a t o r y in 14 the 1960s? 15 A. It w a s n ' t f o r m e d u n t i l 1962. 16 Q. At t h a t ti m e w h o b e c a m e the h e a d ? 17 :A . K i m u r a w a s a c t i n g h e a d o f it. 18 Q. At t h e s a m e t i m e as he w a s s e r v i n g as 19. Yes. 20 Q. -- as Chief' o f C l i n i c a l ns? 21 A. Y es. 22 Q Did the v a r i o u s d i v i s i o n s and b r a n c h e s in 2 3 the Biomedical Laboratory work with any of the other 24 d i v i s i o n s or l a b o r a t o r i e s l o c a t e d at E d g e wood.? 25 A . Yes. 142 Sim' 31 1 Q. W h i c h d i v i s i o n s or l a b o r a t o r i e s d i d the 2 Biomedical Laboratory work with? 3 A; T h e C h e m i c a l R e s e a r c h D i v i s i o n p r i m a r i l y . 4 ;! Q. W h a t w o r k w a s p e r f o r m e d in the C h e m i c a l 5 Research Division? 6 :A . T o x i c o l o g y . 7 Q. At the r e q u e s t of the C h e m i c a l R e s e a r c h 8 i.j|D i v i s i o n -- 9 'A . C o r r e c t . 10 Q. L e t me f i n i s h m y q u e s t i o n . At the 1 1 request of the Chemical Research Division, the 12 'Toxicology Division would perform various toxicity 13 tests? 14 a !J- N o , o n j o i n t a g r e e m e n t . 15 I Q On joint agreement? 1 6 A. Y e s 17 Q . W h a t w e r e the p r o c e d u r e s th a t w e r e 18 f o l l o w e d to hav e a r e q u e s t for t o x i c i t y t e s t i n g 19 a g r e e d to? 2 0 A .' It h a d to a p p e a r b e f o r e a b o a r d . 2 1 Q. W a s t h e r e a n a m e for t h a t b o a r d ? 22 A.; R e v i e w P o i n t I. 23 Q. Is R e v i e w P o i n t I s t i l l in e x i s t e n c e ? 2 4 A.. I d o n ' t k n o w . . 25 Q. W a s R e v i e w P o i n t I s t i l l in e x i s t e n c e at Sim 32 1 ! the time of your retirement? j 2 ! A. 3 :i In theory, Q. W h e n not did in fact. Review Point r cease to e x i s t i in 4 fact? 5 A :. I d o n ' t k n o w . I c a n ' t a n s w e r . 6 i Q. W o uld it have b e e n some time prior to 7 your retirement? S A. It did, in fact. 9 Q. W h e n d i d y o u r e t i r e f r o m E d g e w o o d ? 1 0 A. 19 8 0 . 11 i Q. H o w d i d R e v i e w P o i n t I o p e r a t e ? 1 2 A. I d o n ' t q u i t e k n o w w h a t you m e a n by that 13 b e c a u s e it is a l a r g e o r d e r . 14 Q. W h a t d i d R e v i e w P o i n t I d o ? W h a t w e r e 1 5 | its functions and activities? 1 6 A'. I t s f u n c t i o n w a s t o p a s s o n t h e m e t h o d s a n d t h e 17 : r e s u l t s of c h e m i c a l i n v e s t i g a t i o n in n e w c o m p o u n d s , 19 land t e s t i n g in t h e p r i m a r y screens . i :; 19 Q. W h a t w a s the s o u r c e of t h e n e w c o m p o u n d s 20 t h at w e r e r e v i e w e d by R e v i e w Point I? 21 A . C h e m i c a l L a b o r a t o r i e s . 22 Q. W a s t h e C h e m i c a l L a b o r a t o r i e s the same as 23 i the C h e m i c a l R e s e a r c h D i v i s i o n ? 24 A. Yes. Jil.dJi?*.* 25 Q. D o y o u r e c a l l d u r i n g w h a t t i m e p e r i o d o n Sim 33 of the other names was a p p l i c a b l e V c 2 A. I d o n 't. 3 Q. Do you r e c a l l w h i c h n a m e c a m e f i r s t ? 4 A . Chemical Research and Development Laboratory 5 contained other, things besides Chemical Research 6 Division, like mass protective clothing. 7 MR. LEVINE: May I have the last answer 8 .read back. I was diverted. 9 (read by the reporter). 1 0 MR. LEVINE: Thank you. 11 Q. Is it c o r r e c t to s t a t e t h a t at s o m e p o i n t 1 2 the Chemical Research and Development Lab became L 1 3 k n o w n as the C h e m i c a l L a b o r a t o r i e s ? 1 4 ;A. N o , n o t t o .my k n o w l e d g e . 15 Q . W h a t ! w a s the u n i t w i t h i n the C h e m i c a l i 6 ;R e s e a r c h a n d D e v e l o p m e n t L a b t h a t w a s t h e e q u i v a l e n t > 17 Hof Chemical Laboratories? 18 A . . I don't understand. ':;j !| 19 ;!a g a i n . Give me that question 2 0 :! H ! Q. I, a m a s k i n g f o r s o m e h e l p h e r e . W e h a v e 21 t a l k e d about. C h e m i c a l L a b o r a t o r i e s and the C h e m i c a l 1 ;' ; 22 :Res e a r c h D i v i s i o n . . I a s k e d you w h i c h h a d c o m e f i r s t 2 3 and you believed that the Chemical Research Division wa s r e f e r r e d to as the C h e m i c a l R e s e a r c h and n! , . 2 5 ``D e v e l o p m e n t L a b a t o n e t i m e . 14133 Sim 34 1 A . That's right. 2 Q. Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? 3 A. U n d e r S i l v e r . 4 Q. U n d e r S l i v e r ? 5 A . Ye s . 6 Q. W h a t I w a n t to k n o w n o w is w h e t h e r y o u 7 k n o w w h e n w h a t w a s r e f e r r e d to as the C h e m i c a l 8 R e s e a r c h and D e v e l o p m e n t L a b b e c a m e k n o w n as the 9 Chemical Laboratories? 1 0 A. I c a n ' t a n s w e r t h a t b e c a u s e t h e r e i s n ' t s u c h a 11 t h i n g a s C h e m i c a l L a b o r a t o r i e s . 1 2 Q. W h e n y o u r e f e r r e d toC h e m i c a l 1 3 .Laboratories d u r i n g y o u r t e s t i m o n y , are you in fact 14 r e f e r r i n g to the c h e m i c a l r e s e a r c h -- 1 5 A. R e s e a r c h and d e v e l o p m e n t p a r t of it. 16 Q . T h a n k y o u . 1 7 :| ' You testified that the source of the 18 ;chemical a g e n t s p a s s e d on b y R e v i e w P o i n t I was the 1 9 !i! C h e m i c a l L a b o r a t o r i e s . H o w d i d t h e C h e m i c a l 2 0 `L a b o r a t o r i e s o b t a i n t h e n e w c h e m i c a l a g e n t s ? 21 A. F r o m c o m p a n i e s such as are r e p r e s e n t e d . 22 Q. W e r e t h e r e o t h e r s o u r c e s for the c h e m i c a l 2 3 agents? 24 A. T h e o n e s t h e y m a d e t h e m s e l v e s . ^4 64 25 Q. W h o w o u l d h a v e m a d e t h o s e a g e n t s ? Sim- 35 1 |A. T h e O r g a n i c C h e m i s t r y B r a n c h . 2 | Q. A s i d e from m a n u f a c t u r e r s in C h e m i s t r y and 3 ;the O r g a n i c C h e m i s t r y Branch, were there other 4 ^sources of chemical agents? 5 ;A . Othercountries. 6 Q. W h a t w o u l d t h o s e c o u n t r i e s b e ? W h a t w e r e 7 those countries? 8 A. U. K., C a n a d a , A u s t r a l i a . 9 Q. Via s G e r m a n y o n e o f t h o s e c o u n t r i e s ? T r y 10 to an sw er yes or no ra t he r than s ha kin g your head 1 1 h ead b e c a u s e it c r e a t e s p r o b l e m s for the c o u r t 12 r e p o r t e r . 1 3 IA . N o . 14 i; .! Q. Did G e r m a n y at some point b e c o m e a source 15 of c h e m i c a l a g e n t s ? 16 A . Of chemical agents? 17 Q . Yes. .i ; ; 18 ;A . Y o u b e t t e r d e f i n e c h e m i c a l a g e n t s f o r m e . 19 Any c o m p o u n d t h a t w o u l d be c o n s i d e r e d for 20 ipossible use as a c h e m i c a l w a r f a r e agent. 21 A . N o t s i n c e 1 9 4 6 . 22 .! Q. In 1960, w h o w e r e the r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s of 23 Review Point I? 24 jA . I do n 1t r em emb er . X 4 X/0 5" ;M M r 25 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l t h e n a m e s of a n y o f the Sim 36 1 2 A. I ' m s ure K r a c k o w w a s on it, p r o b a b l y M c N a m a r a . 3 Q. W h a t w a s Dr. M c N a m a r a ' s p o s i t i o n at t h a t 4 time? 5 A. He w a s h e a d of p h a r m a c o l o g y at t h a t t i m e . 6 ; Q. T ha t was p h a r m a c o l o g y in the B i o m e d i c a l 7 Laboratory? 8 ;A. Y e s . 9 a' :! Q. Was Dr. Fritz H o f f m a n a membe r of R e v i e w 1 0 Point I at that time? 11 'A.: I d o n ' t know. Van W i t t e n was, Dr. Van W i t t e n 1 2 wa s . 13 ' Q. W a s J a k e M i l l e r ? 14 A. I t h i n k h e w a s o n t h e c o m m i t t e e . I ' m n o t 15 c e r t a i n . 16 Q. W a s Dr. M i l t o n C h r i s t e n s e n on the 1 7 c o m m i t t e e of R e v i e w P o i n t I? 18 A. N o t at t h a t t i m e . 1 9 Q. Did he l a t e r b e c o m e a m e m b e r of R e v i e w 20 .Point I ? 21 A. Y e s . It is n o t d o c t o r . It is M i l t o n 22 C h r i s t e n s e n . 23 Q. W h e n d i d M i l t o n C h r i s t e n s e n b e c o m e a 24 m e m b e r of R e v i e w P o i n t I? 25 A . 1969, 19 7 0 . Sim 37 1 Q . What was Mr. C h r i s t e n s e n ' s p o s i t i o n in 2 the 1960s? 3 A . He w o r k e d in T o x i c o l o g y . 4 Q . He w o r k e d under.- Dr. M c N a m a r a ? 5 A. Y e s . 6 Q . And before that Dr. Krac kow? 7 A. Y e s . j* 8 Q Was Dr. O w e n s on R e v i e w P o i n t I in 1 9 60 ? 9 A . It is not Dr. O w e n s . It w a s M i s t e r O w e n s 10 Q Was he on R e v i e w P o i n t I in 1 9 60? 11 A . N o . 12 Q Was Tom S i m m o n s on R e v i e w P o i n t I in 1960 1 3 A . No. i. 14 Q Did you e v e r s e r v e on R e v i e w P o i n t I ? 15 A . No . 16 Q Did y o u e v e r s e r v e on a n y r e v i e w p o i n t ? 1 7 A . R e v i e w P oint II. 18 Q . R e v i e w P o i n t II? 19 A . Yes. 20 Q . W h a t d i d R e v i e w P o i n t II d o ? 2 1 A . Re v iewed the medical implications of all the 22 t e s t s . 23 Q. W h a t w o u l d t h o s e t e s t s b e ? W h a t w e r e the 24 t e s t s t h a t R e v i e w P o i n t II r e v i e w e d ? W h a t t y p e s of 25 t e s t s ? 1 Sim 33 1 1 A. All toxicology, all biochemical, all tissue 2 c u l t u r e , a l l o r g a n c u l t u r e , a l l h i.s t o c h e m i s t r y , 3 everything that went into the screen of a 4 ;pharmaceutical house. 5 Q. D u r i n g w h a t t i m e p e r i o d d i d you s e r v e on 6 Review Point II? 7 :A. I w o u ld say 1958 to 1966, s o m e t h i n g like that. a. Q. W a s t h e r e a g r o u p r e f e r r e d to as R e v i e w 9 Point 1.5? 1 0 A. It w a s n o t o f f i c i a l . 1 1 Q. Was t h e r e s o m e t h i n g c a l l e d tha t ? 1 2 A. It w a s u n o f f i c i a l . 13 Q. B u t t h e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g c a l l e d 1 . 5 ? 14 , A. Not for the record. 15 Q . W h a t wa s I .5 ? 16 A :1 1 w a s r e v i e w i n g R e v i e w P o i n t I a n d R e v i e w 17 :P o i n t II . T h e r e w a s a n i n t e r m e d i a t e g r o u p w h i c h w a s 18 c o m p o s e d of some of the s a m e p e o p l e f r o m g r o u p one 19 and g r o u p two that w o u l d c o m p l e t e to d i s c u s s f u r t h e r 20 requirements. 21 MR. L E V I N E : Let us ta k e fi v e m i n u t e s . 22 (A s h o r t r e c e s s is t a k e n ) 23 'i 24 A. Q. Dr. J a n d o r f -- s o r r y . . Y o u are in the w r o n g c o u n t r y . i Ay;'. Q ^ 25 Q. Dr. Sim, did y o u k n o w a C o l o n e l M c C l u r e ? Sim, 39 1 A . Sure. 2 1 Q. V7ho w a s C o l o n e l M c C l u r e ? 3 A. A C o l o n e l , M e d i c a l C o r p s . 4 Q. D i d he e v e r w o r k at E d g e w o o d ? 5 A. Y e s , t w i c e . S Q. W h a t w a s h i s p o s i t i o n at E d g e w o o d ? 7 A. W e l l , he w a s o n e of t h e c h i e f s of C l i n i c a l a :R e s e a r c h a t o n e t i m e w h e n it w a s a d i v i s i o n . H e w a s 9 also Director of Biomedical at one time. 10 Q. W a s he a c h i e f of the C l i n i c a l R e s e a r c h 11 D i v i s i o n b e f o r e y o u b e c a m e C h i e f ? 1 2 :A . O h , n o . 13 Q. W h e n d i d he s e r v e as C h i e f of C l i n i c a l 14 i R es earch? 15 A . I ' m n o t c e r t a i n of the d a t e . !!| 1 1 6 *1"!! Q. :i ' W as t h e r e a n y o n e w ho s e r v e d as C h i e f of 17 C l i n i c a l R e s e a r c h b e t w e e n y o u and C o l o n e l M c C l u r e ? 1 8 `:|A . Y e s , B o t a l e r i . Y o u s p e l l it. 19 :j; Q. D i d C o l o n e l M c C l u r e h o l d a n y o t h e r 20 po s i t i o n s at Ed g e w o o d ? 2 1 ;iA. ;N o . H e w a s D i r e c t o r o f B i o m e d i c a l L a b in 1 9 7 4 22 t Q. Do y o u k n o w H e r b e r t C h r i s t e n s e n ? 23 A. H e r b e r t C h r i s t e n s e n ? 24 Yes 25 A. No . 14269 Sim; 40 1 Q. I b e l i e v e y o u t e s t i f i e d t h a t in 1 9 6 1 y o u 2 became Deputy Director and Chief research physician 3 of the Biomedical L aboratories. 4 ' A . Cor r ec t . 5 Q. Is that c o r r e c t ? 6 A . Yes. 7 Q. W h a t w e r e the r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s of D e p u t y 8 Director and Chief Research Physician? 9 A. W e l l , it w a s the S c i e n t i f i c D i r e c t o r of the 10 l a b o r a t o r i e s , B i o m e d i c a l L a b o r a t o r i e s . Al so the 1 1 res p o n s i b l e physician- for all human testing. 12 Q. As D e p u t y D i r e c t o r and C h i e f R e s e a r c h 13 P h y s i c i a n , w h o d i d y o u r e p o r t to? 14 A. To the C h i e f of B i o m e d i c a l L a b o r a t o r y and t h e 1 5 Chief of CRDL. 16 ; |; Q. And those were Dr. Silver and the 17 ^Commanding General? 18 A. No. T h a t w a s six C o l o n e l s . It l a s t e d a b o u t 19 two y e a r s . 20 Q. W h i c h t w o y e a r s ? 21 A. B a y l i s s w a s t h e f i r s t o n e . D r e i s b a c h w a s t h e 22 -second one. Ba uer was the third one. Botaleri, 2 3 Bauer and Blair. 24 Q. W h a t w e r e the t i t l e s ? , -X4^7Q 25 A. C o l o n e l s of t h e M e d i c a l C o r p s , d i r e c t o r s o f t h e Sim i :* | : 1 Biomedical Laboratory. 41 2' Q. W h o w a s t h e c o m m a n d e r o f the C h e m i c a l 3 Research and Development Laboratories? 4 A. T h e r e w a s n o c o m m a n d e r . It w a s a s c i e n t i s t . 5 ;| Q. W h o was the s c i e n t i s t ? 6 A. T h a t w a s S i l v e r . H e h a d a d e p u t y m i l i t a r y , b u t 7 I c o u l d n ' t tell you who it was. 8 Q. W h o r e p o r t e d to y o u as D e p u t y D i r e c t o r 9 and C h i e f R e s e a r c h P h y s i c i a n ? 10 A. A l l t h e d i v i s i o n s . 11 Q. W i t h i n the B i o m e d i c a l L a b o r a t o r i e s ? 1 2 A . Yes. 1 3 Q. Dr. Sim, are y o u f a m i l i a r w i t h the t e r m 14 d i o x i n ? 15 A. I k n o w t h e i n a m e , y e s . 16 Q. W h a t is y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g of w h a t t h a t 1 7 term refers to? 18 A. D i o x i n d o e s n ' t m e a n a n y t h i n g to me. It is a 19 toxic substance. 20 Q. Do y o u k n o w w h a t a d i o x i n c o m p o u n d is? 21 A . Yes. 22 Q. F o r p u r p o s e s of t his d e p o s i t i o n , w i l l y o u 2 3 u n d e r s t a n d that w h e n I r e f e r to d i o x i n , I am : I . 24 r e f e r r i n g to any of the h a l e n o g a t e d d i o x i n c o m p o u n d s 25 A Of w h i c h t h e r e are s e v e r a l . >"i)1-i Sim 42 1 Q Yes. Will you understand that? 2 A . Yes 3 Q Yes? 4 A:. Y e s . 5 Q. W h e n d i d y o u f i r s t h e a r or d i o x i n ? 6 A.. I d o n ' t r e c a l l . 7 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l m e e t i n g w i t h me in M a r c h of 8 ithis yea r? ; 9 A . Correc t . i I 10 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l t e l l i n g me t h a t yo u f i r s t j 11 ' h e a r d o f dioxin: f r o m Dr. H o f f m a n in the e a r l y 1 9 6 0 s ? 12 MR. L E V I N E : N o t e my o b j e c t i o n . 1 3 IA . I m a y h a v e . I ' m n o t s u r e . I r e c a l l t a l k i n g t o 14 you, as y o u say, b u t I d o n ' t k n o w w h e t h e r I h e a r d it 1 5 1first from Hoffman or not. 16 Q. Do you r e c a l l e v e r h e a r i n g a b o u t d i o x i n 1 7 from Dr. H o f f m a n ? 18 A . Not that I r e m e m b e r 19 Q. Do y o u h a v e a g e n e r a l r e c o l l e c t i o n of 20 (having d i s c u s s e d d i o x i n w i t h Dr. H o f f m a n ? 21 A. I h a v e a g e n e r a l of having heard 22 it. 23 MR. T A Y L O R : O b j e c t i o n 24 A. I h a v e a g e n e r a l 25 W h e n d i d y o u h e a r a b o u t d i o x i n ? S im 43 1 ,,A . I d o n ' t k n o w . I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r . 2 Q. W a s it b e f o r e 1 9 6 0 ? 3 A. I c o u l d n ' t a n s w e r th a t , w h e n it h a p p e n e d . 4 Q. W h a t p o s i t i o n d i d you h a v e at the time 5 1y o u h e a r d a b o u t i t ? 6 ;A. Clinical Research Division. 7 '1 :i Q. And you were Chief of the Clinical S Research Division until 1961, weren't you? 9 A . Yes. 10 Q. So it w o u l d h a v e b e e n b e f o r e 1 9 6 1 ? 1 1 MR. TAYLOR: Objection. 12 MR. L E V I N E : It c o u l d h a v e b e e n 1 9 6 1 . 13 t '' 14 ' A . Q . Or 1961. It c o u ld have b e e n 1961. I don't know. 1 5 Q. W h a t w e r e the c i r c u m s t a n c e s under' w h i c h 16 you h eard about di o x i n from Dr. Hoffman? 1 7 MR. LEVINE: Not e my o b j e c t i o n . If he 18 can t r e c a l l w h e n it was -- w e ll, n o t e m y o b j e c t i o n . 1 9 i '^ MR. TAYLOR: Objection. 20 i ` Q. You can answer the question. 21 ;a . I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r it w a s a m e e t i n g o r 22 no t It p r o b a b l y was. I h a v e no r e c o l l e c t i o n of a 23 m e e t i n g s p e c i f i c a l l y . 24 Q. Did Dr. H o f f m a n -- s t r i k e that. W h o wa s 14273 25 Dr. H o f f m a n ? Si m 44 1 A. H e w a s h e a d of O r g a n i c C h e m i s t r y B r a n c h of t h e 2 Chemical Research and Development Lab. 3 i: Q. During what time period? 4 A. F r o m a b o u t -- I ' m n o t c e r t a i n . 5 Q . W h e n d i d Dr. H o f f m a n -6 A . Hoffman was the head of chemical research, and ! 7 he was head of Orga n i c Chemistry. 8 Q. At w h a t t i m e p e r i o d ? 9 A. 1 9 5 6 to 1 9 6 7 . 1 0 Q. Is Dr. H o f f m a n s t i l l a l i v e ? 11 A . No. He d i e d in 1 9 6 7 . 1 2 Q. W a s he C h i e f of O r g a n i c C h e m i s t r y at the 13 .t i m e of h i s d e a t h ? 14 IA . I think so. I'm not certain. 15 ; ; Q. As Chief of O r g a n i c Chemistr y, what were 1 6 II Dr . H o f f m a n ' s d u t i e s ? 17 :'A. I h ave no s p e c i f i c i n f o r m a t i o n e x c e p t he was to 18 furnish comp o u n d. W h e t h e r he s y n t h e s i z e d them 19 w i t h i n the l a b o r a t o r y or g o t t h e m e l s e w h e r e , t h a t is j I ;: 20 M Q. Do you recall t e l l i n g me in M a r c h of this 21 year t h a t o n e of Dr. H o f f m a n ' s d u t i e s w a s to s e a r c h 22 / f o r p o t e n t i a l n e w c h e m i c a l a g e n t s ? 23 MR. L E V I N E : N o t e my o b j e c t i o n . 24 'A. I d o n ' t u n d e r s t a n d y o u r q u e s t i o n . j1iLl A O 25 MR. GORDON: Will the r e p o r t e r please Sim- 45 1 re a d it b a c k . 2 (read by the reporter) 3 A. T h e a n s w e r to t h a t q u e s t i o n is a n y o n e in 4 Organic Chemistry had that responsibility. 5 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l t e l l i n g e t h a t o n e of Dr. 6 H o f f m a n ' s f u n c t i o n s was to search for new c h e m i c a l 7 agents? 8 MR. LEVINE: Note my objection. 9 A. I d o n ' t r e c a l l t e l l i n g y o u t h a t s p e c i f i c a l l y . 1 0 Q. As p a r t of h i s r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s , 'did Dr. 11 H o f f m a n t r a v e l to G e r m a n y ? 12 : A. A m o n g o t h e r p l a c e s . 1 3 Q. H o w o f t e n d i d he t r a v e l to G e r m a n y ? 14 A . I h a v e no idea'. .15: .fs-'iQ-iH = : D.id h e m a k e a n 1 a n n u a l'itr i p 1 to G e r m a n y ? ` 16 A . Probably. 17 :j j Q. : 18 -Germany? W h a t was the p u r p o s e of t h e s e trips to 19 MR. L E V I N E : N o t e my o b j e c t i o n . 2 0 .A. No a n s w e r . 21 :ii ; G. W h a t was the p u r p o s e of h i s t r i p s to 22 iG e r m a n y ? 23 A.: N o a n s w e r . 24 Q. W h a t do you m e a n b y no a n s w e r ? 25 A. B e c a u s e I d o n ' t h a v e a n a n s w e r . OI Sim 46 1 Q. D o e s t h a t m e a n t h a t y o u d o n ' t k n o w ? 2 A . I don't know. 3 Q. P l e a s e say y o u d o n ' t k n o w r a t h e r t h a n "no 4 answer" 5 A. D o n ' t tell me w h a t to say. 6 Q. Dr. Sim, I am g o i n g to r e m i n d y o u t h a t 7 you are under subpoena. S A. I u n d e r s t a n d p e r f e c t l y well. 9 Good 10 MR . L E V I N E : Come o n . 1 1 MR . G O R D O N : We are g o i n g to a d j o u r n this 12 u n t il S p e c i a l M a s t e r S c h r e i b e r a r r i v e s at two 13 o ' c l o c k . 14 MS. B E R N O T T : T h e n I will o p po se any 15 - r e c o n v e n i n g of th i s d e p o s i t i o n for a n y p u r p o s e . 16 iDoes a n y o n e else p r e s e n t w a n t to ask the w i t n e s s 17 questions? :;'d j ; 18 MR. G O R D O N : A l l w e a r e d o i n g is 19 a d j o u r n i n g this d e p o s i t i o n u n t i l t w o o ' c l o c k . 20 MS. B E R N O T T : No, we are not. Y o u are 21 t e r m i n a t i n g the d e p o s i t i o n . 22 M R . R I V K I N : Y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t a h a l f 2 3 hour, Joan. 142 76 24 MS. B E R N O T T : We are t a l k i n g a b o ut a 25 t e r m i n a t i o n , L e o n a r d . We d i s c u s s e d t his w i t h M i k e . w n a n a n d sninelli Sim 47 I .| 1 It w a s o u r i n t e n t i o n and h o p e to g e t at l e a s t t h r e e 2 jhours of t e s t i m o n y from this ge n t l e m a n today. Mr. 3 G o r d o n is v o l u n t a r i l y t e r m i n a t i n g the d e p o s i t i o n 4 early and the Government will take the position that 5 jit is a t e r m i n a t i o n , n o t an a d j o u r n m e n t , a n d it w i l l 6 not be r e c o n v e n e d for the p u r p o s e of a n y o n e in this 7 room unless they are r eady to p r o c e e d now. 8 M R . R I V K I N : Y ou s ta r t e d at 1 1:1 5 so you 9 icould prepare him. We had two dozen people sitting 10 around twiddling thumbs. 11 MS. B E R N O T T : Is a n y o n e h e r e p r e p a r e d to 1 2 ::p r o c e e d ? 1 3 MR. G O R D O N : Is Dr. S i m g o i n g to be h e r e 14 at two o ' c l o c k ? 15 MS. B E R N O T T : No, h e . i s not. 1 6 '' j MR.RIVKIN: I object on the record on 17 b e h a 1 f of D o w and I w o u l d a p p l y to the S p e c i a l 13 M a s t e r for a r u l i n g on Miss B e r n o t t ' s req ues t. 19 r MR. GORDON: We will go until two o ' c l o c k 20 igh t now 21 i M R . R I V K I N : You d o n ' t h av e to go to two 22 : o ' c l o c k . W h a t ' s t h e m a t t e r w i t h y o u ? 23 ; :i MR. SILBERMAN: What are we doing, 24 skipping lunch? I ' |: i ' 25 MR. G O R D O N : We a g r e e d b e f o r e to b r e a k u / n n n n r H er^in^lM ^ ^ --. -j - -- ii_ --- -i Sim 48 1 for lunch at one o'clock. 2 ; : Q. Dr. Sim, w h a t w e r e the v a r i o u s d i v i s i o n s 3 of the Chemical Laboratories? 4 |A. I don't remember. 5 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l a n y of t h e m ? 6 iA. I gave you the Chemical Division. 7 Q. Y o u g a v e me the B i o m e d i c a l L a b o r a t o r i e s 8 Division. 9 jA;. N o . I g a v e y o u t h e C h e m i c a l D i v i s i o n . 10 Q. R e f r e s h m y r e c o l l e c t i o n . 11 A. D e v e l o p m e n t d i v i s i o n . T h e r e is t w o of t h e m . 1 2 .| Q. W h a t w e r e t h o s e t w o d i v i s i o n s of t he 13 j C h e t n i c a l L a b o r a t o r y ? 14 'A. C h e m i c a l R e s e a r c h a n d D e v e l o p m e n t L a b o r a t o r y we ;i 1; 1 5 are talking about. . i `: 16 ! | Q. What are the two d i visions of the 17 Research and Development Laboratory? 18 jA. T h e t w o d i v i s i o n s t h a t I t o l d y o u a b o u t a r e 19 D e v e l o p m e n t L a b o r a t o r i e s and the C h e m i c a l L a b o r a t o r y 20 MR. G O R D O N : R e a d the a n s w er . 21 (re a d b y t h e r e p o r t e r ) 22 A. C h e m i c a l R e s e a r c h L a b o r a t o r y . 23 Q. W h o w a s in c h a r g e of the C h e m i c a l 24 L a b o r a t o r y in 1960? 25 A Ben W i t t e n . 14278 ,w n n n n n d sninplli Sim 49 1 Q. H o w l o n g d i d Ben W i t t e n s e r v e as C h i e f of 2 !t h e C h e m i c a l L a b o r a t o r y ? 3 A. U n t i l he d i e d . 4 Q. W h e n w a s t h a t ? 5 A. E n d o f s e v e n t i e s . T h e e n d o f 1 9 ^ 5 o r s o m e t h i n g 6 j: Q. What were the divisions within the 7 Chemical Laboratory? 8 A. I c a n ' t a n s w e r . Q Q. Wa s t h e r e an O r g a n i c C h e m i s t r y D i v i s i o n 10 in the C h e m i c a l L a b o r a t o r y ? 11 A. T h e r e is an O r g a n i c C h e m i s t r y B r a n c h or a 12 d i v i s i o n . I d o n ' t k n o w w h i c h it was. 1 3 Q. W a s t h a t t h e O r g a n i c C h e m i s t r y D i v i s i o n 14 t h a t yo u r e f e r r e d to p r e v i o u s l y in t e s t i f y i n g to Dr. 1 5 :H o f f m a n ' s j o b ? 1 6 A . Yes. 1 7 Q. W h a t w e r e the v a r i o u s b r a n c h e s w i t h i n the 18 O r g a n i c C h e m i s t r y D i v i s i o n ? 19 A. If you d i d n ' t g e t the a n s w e r f r o m Dr. J a n d o r f 20 or if you d i d n ' t g e t the a n s w e r from the p r e v i o u s 21 g e n t l e m a n t h a t y o u i n t e r v i e w e d , y o u c a n ' t g e t it 22 from me b e c a u s e I d o n ' t kno w . I was not -- 23 Q. Is y o u r a n s w e r t h a t you d o n ot k n o w ? 24 A. I d o n o t k n o w . 25 MR. G O R D O N : At the a p p r o p r i a t e t i m e I w n n n n n H cr'iinolli r+Jfi -*-J mL. -- S I m; 50 1 will' m o v e to s t r i k e t h e b a l a n c e o f t h a t a n s w e r w h i c h 2 was totally unresponsive. 3 Q. W a s t h e r e a P h y s i c a l R e s e a r c h D i v i s i o n in 4 the Chemical Laboratory? 5 :A . I don't know. 6 ' Q. Who is Mr. Z e f f e r t ? 7 ;A. B e r n i e Z e f f e r t . He was one of the b r a n c h 8 chiefs but I can't tell you whether he was a 9 division Chief or not. 1 0 Q. Did y o u e v e r s p e a k w i t h Mr. Z e f f e r t ? 11 :A . O h , y e s . 1 2 Q. W h a t w a s the s u b j e c t of y o u r d i s c u s s i o n s 13 with Mr. Z e f f e r t ? 14 i ' MR. L E V I N E : N o t e m y o b j e c t i o n to that. 1 5 ;A I h a v e n o i d e a . f .' i 16 i Q. You have no idea what you d i s c u s s e d with 1 7 Mr. Ze f fer t? 18 'A . No . j : 19 | i Q . Do you h a v e any 20 Zeffert did? o f wh at Mr 21 A. E x c e p t t h a t h e w o r k e d in t h e C h e m i c a l 22 L a b o r a t o r i e s in p h y s i c a l r e s e a r c h . He m o v e d all i ;: 23 o v e r t h e p l a c e .: 24 Q . W h er e did he move? 14280 25 A F r o m one job to a n o t h e r 11 Sim 1 2 A. 3 4 A. 5 6 ,.A. 7 51 Q. What' w e r e the v a r i o u s jobs that he h a d ? I don't know, but he had several. Q. Is Mr. Z e f f e r t s t i l l at E d g e w o o d ? No . Q. W h e n d i d he l e a v e E d g e w o o d ? I d o n 't know. It was in the s e v e n t i e s . Q. Do y o u k n o w w h e t h e r he is s t i l l a l i v e ? 8 A . I think s o . 9 Q. Do y o u k n o w w h o Mr. P r e d e c e s s o r w a s ? 10 MS. FELDHEIM: Can the witness answer, 11 please . 1 2 A. No. 1 3 Q. H a v e y o u e v e r h e a r d of a P h y s i c a l 14 P r o p e r t i e s B r a n c h of t h e . C h e m i c a l L a b o r a t o r i e s ? 1 5 A. N o . | 16 Q. H a v e y o u e v e r h e a r d of a D i s s e m i n a t i o n 1 7 Branch of the Chemical Laboratories? 18 A. No. 19 Q. W a s t h e r e an A n a l y t i c a l C h e m i s t r y 20 D i v i s i o n in the C h e m i c a l L a b o r a t o r i e s ? 21 A . Yes . 22 Q. W h o w a s in c h a r g e o f t h e A n a l y t i c a l 23 C h e m i s t r y ? 24 A . I d o n ' t k n o w . 2 5 Q. Do y o u k n o w Mr. S a m u e l S a s s ? -s JL cr'tir'iedli x-* ~ * : _ _ _ i Sim 52. 1 A. Y e s . 2 Q. Do y o u k n o w w h a t Mr. S a s s 1 p o s i t i o n w a s ? 3 A . Head of Analytical. 4 Q. D u r i n g w h a t time p e r i o d did Mr. S a s s 5 serve as the head of A n a l y t i c a l ? 6 A. I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r the d a t e s . 7 Q. W a s he h e a d of A n a l y t i c a l in 1 9 6 0 ? 8 MR. T AY L O R : O b j e c t to the r e p e t e t i v e 9 n a t u r e of this q u e s t i o n i n g . It is the same type of 10 q u e s t i o n i n g that ha s o c c u r r e d b e f o r e w i t h the p r i o r 1 1 wi tn es s . 12 A . i d o n 't k n o w . 1 3 Q Is Mr. G a s s s t i l l at E d g e w o o d ? 14 ;A . As far as I k n o w , no t . 1 5 Q Do you kno w wh en Mr. Sass left E d g e w o o d ? 16 A. He r e t i r e d . 17 Q W h a t ;w e r e th e f u n c t i o n s o f t h e A n a l y t i c a l 18 C h e m i s t r y Division? 19 a .: I d o n ' t k n o w . 14282 20 MS. B E R N O T T : I w i l l in te rpo s e an 21 o b j e c t i o n to t h i s w h o l e l i n e of q u e s t i o n i n g b e c a u s e 22 it is r e p e t e t i v e , c u m u l a t i v e and i r r e l e v a n t . 23 M R . R I V K I N : Let the r e c o r d s h o w the 24 M a s t e r r u l e d that M i s s B e r n o t t ' s p o s i t i o n in the 25 J u s t i c e D e p a r t m e n t has no r i g h t to o b j e c t o t h e r t h a n w n n n nnrl cmincilli ~i -i--------- -- Sim; 1 'on national security grounds. 53 I don't understand 2 ih o w s h e c a n n o t a b i d e b y t h e r u l i n g o f t h e C o u r t . 3 MR. GORDON: Off the record. Read back 4 the last question. 5; (read by the reporter) 6 ! '! Q. What was the Weapons Research Lab o r a t o r y ? 7 :A . I d o n 't know. It was part of the E d g e w o o d 3 complex. 9 Q. Did y o u e v e r h a v e a n y d e a l i n g s w i t h the 10 Weapons Research Laboratory? 11 'A . N o . 1 2 Q . You didn't know Mr. Milton Cutler? 13 iA . I k n o w who he is. 14 Q. W h o is h e? 1 5 :A . M i l t o n C u t l e r . 16 Q . Was he e v e r s t a t i o n e d at E d g e w o o d ? 1 7 ;A . Y e s . 18 Q. W h a t w a s h i s p o s i t i o n ? 19 !AJ I d o n ' t k n o w . 20 Q W h e n was he s t a t i o n e d at E d g e w o o d ? 21 ]A .j I n t h e s i x t i e s . ! !I 22 MR. L E V I N E : O f f th e r e c o r d . 23 :iIL: r (Discussion held off the record) 24 Q. Did y o u k n o w M a j o r P e t e r H e x n e r ? 2 5 I remember the name. S i mi 54 1 I Q. Do you k n o w w h e n he was s t a t i o n e d at 2 .! E d g e w o o d ? 3 A . Yes. i 4 Q. W h e n w a s he s t a t i o n e d at E d g e w o o d ? 5 A. I d o n ' t k n o w . 6 j ;I Q. Do you k n o w w h at his p o s i t i o n was at 7 Edgewood? 8 A . No . : :: I I 9 i. j Q, Did you ever have discussions with major 1 0 Ilexner? 11 A. N o . 12 : j Q . What was the h i s t o r i c a l unit at E d g e w o o d ? 1 3 :A r e y o u f a m i l i a r w i t h t h e t e r m " H i s t o r i c a l U n i t at 14 1E d g e w o o d " or " E d g e w o o d H i s t o r i c a l U n it " ? i; 1 5 iA . No. 16 Q. Have, y o u e v e r h e a r d of t h a t t e r m ? 17 Not in t h a t -- 18 Q . E x c u s e m e . 19 iA . Not like t h a t . 20 Q. H o w h a v e y o u h e a r d the t e r m ? 21 A . I h a v e n ' t h e a r d t h e t e r m the w a y y o u are s a y i n g I 22 !i t 23 Q. 24 ;A , No. H a v e ;y o u h e a r d it in a n y o t h e r w a y ? : 25 Q. W h a t ; u n i t of the m i l i t a r y h a d a m am a lla 1" Sim 55 1 r e s p o nsibility for the Biomedical s in 2 I960? 3 A . T h e C h e m i c a l , C h i e f C h e m i c a l O f f i c e r in 4 association with the Surgeon General. 5 Q. W h a t u n i t was the C h i e f c h e m i c a l o f f i c e r 6 in? 7 A. It w a s a s e p a r a t e s e r v i c e . 8 Q. W h a t w a s t h e n a m e o f t h a t s e r v i c e ? 9 A. T h e C h e m i c a l C o r p s . 10 Q. W h e r e w e r e the o f f i c e s of the C h e m i c a l 11 C o r p s l o c a t e d ? 1 2 A. G r a v e l e y P o i n t . 13 Q. Is the C h e m i c a l C o r p s s t i l l in e x i s t e n c e ? 14 A . No . 15 Q . W h e n d i d it c e a s e t o - e x i s t ? 16 A. 1 9 6 3 , o n or a b o u t t h a t d a t e . 1 7 Q. P r i o r to its d i s s o l u t i o n , w h a t w e r e the 18 r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s of the A r my C h e m i c a l Corps? 19 A. I c a n ' t g i v e y o u a -- 20 i Q. W h i c h f a c i l i t i e s w e r e u n d e r i t s ' 21 j u r i s d i c t i o n ? 22 A. R o c k y M o u n t a i n A r s e n a l , T o e l l e . 23 Q. S p e l l t h a t for t h e r e p o r t e r . , ,, 14 24 A. T 0 E L L E; D u g w a y P r o v i n g G r o u n d , Pine- E l u f f 2 5 Arsenal, Newport Chemical Plant, Fort Detrick and Sim 56 1 . E d g e w o o d , a s c ho ol at A n n i s t o n , A l a b a m a , c h e m i c a l 2 s:choo 1 . 3 Q. W h e r e w a s F o r t D e t r i c k l o c a t e d ? 4 A. F r e d e r i c k , M a r y l a n d . 5 i Q. H a v e y o u e v e r b e e n to F o r t D e t r i c k ? 6 A . Yes. 7 Q. W h e n w a s the f i r s t t i m e y o u w e n t to F o r t 8 Detrick? 9 A. I h a v e no i d e a . 1 0 Q. W a s it b e f o r e 1 9 6 0 ? 11 A . Y e s . 12 In the 1 9 6 0 s w h a t a c t i v i t i e s we r e c a r r i e d 13 on at F o r t D e t r i c k ? 1 4 A. I d o n ' t k n o w 15 Q. W a s t h e r e a C r o p s D i v i s i o n at F o r t 1 6 D e t r i c k in the 1960s? 17 A. Yes, I t h i n k t h e r e was. 18 Q. Do y o u k n o w w h o w a s in c h a r g e of t h e 19 C r o p s D i v i s i o n ? : 20 A. T h e o n l y o n e I k n o w is Dr. M i n a r i k . 2 1 Q . W h a t w a s Dr. M i n a r i k 1s f u l l n a m e ? 22 A . C h a r l e s . 23 Q. H a v e ;y o u e v e r m e t D r . M i n a r i k ? 24 A . Yes. 25 Q. W h e n was the f i r s t t i m e y o u met h i m ? AM IM Sim; 57 1 A . I have no idea. 2 Q. H o w m a n y t i m e s d o y o u b e l i e v e y o u m e t D: 3 Minarik? 4 A . I have no idea. 5 Q. V/hat w a s the s u b j e c t of y o u r d i s c u s s i o n s 6 w it h Dr. M i n a r i k ? 7 MR. LEVINE: Note my o b j e c t i o n , please. 8 A . Social. 9 Q. Did y o u h a v e a n y b u s i n e s s d e a l i n g s w i t h 10 Dr. M i n a r i k at any time? 1 1 |A. N o . ! 1 2 | : Q. Did you ever p e r f o r m any wor k for Dr. 13 Minarik? 1 4 A .. N o . If ; 15 Q . Do you k n o w Dr. J a m e s B r o w n ? 16 A .; N o . 17 Q. Do y o u k n o w D r . R o b e r t D a r r o w ? i A ? P.7 1 8 A. I k n o w .t h e i n a m e . ! ;; | ! i iI 19 M l Q. D o yo u k n o w w h o Dr. D a r r o w w a s ? Ii ; : !I ; 2 0 A ." - I t h i n k :h e w a s a t D e t r i c k . I ' m n o t c e r t a i n . 21 | .j Q. Is F o r t D e t r i c k s t i l l in e x i s t e n c e ? ! 'i 2 2 ;A.i T h e A r m y I n f e c t i o u s D i s e a s e L a b o r a t o r y is s t i l l 23 ja t: F o r t D e t r i c k , a n d t h e r e is a C a n c e r I n s t i t u t e 24 l a b o r a t o r y there. But F o r t D e t r i c k , p e r se, is 25 s f i l l F o r t D e t r i c k , but it is not u n d e r the C h e m i c a l w n n n nnrl snin^lli /~Cir+ifiiH #>4 9 Sim 58 1 C o r p s s i n c e t h e r e is n o n e . It is a s e p a r a t e e n t i t y 2 ; now . 3 Q. W h e n did F o r t D e t r i c k c e a s e to be u n d e r 4 the Chemical Corps? 5 'A;. W e l l , a c t u a l l y w h e n t h e C h e m i c a l C o r p s c e a s e d . 6 Q. W h a t h a p p e n e d to F o r t D e t r i c k a f t e r -- 7 : A:. It c o n t i n u e d . S Q. W h o h a d j u r i s d i c t i o n o v e r F o r t D e t r i c k 9 :after -- 10 A . DARCOM and ARADCOM. 11 Q. W h a t d o e s D A R C O M s t a n d f o r ? 12 A. I d o n ' t k n o w . It h a s c h a n g e d s i n c e that time. 1 3 Army Research and Development Command. 14 Q. W h a t w e r e t h e o t h e r i n i t i a l s ? 1 5 A. D A R C O M w a s the -- t h a t ' s P i c a t i n n y A r s e n a l . 16 T h a t ' s the old -- but it was p a r t of A R A D C O M . 1 7 ARADCOM was the;largest one and DARCOM was the next 18 e c h e l o n d ow n that held d i r e c t l y w i th bot h Det ri ck 1 9 ja n d E d g e w o o d . 20 MR. LEVINE: D e p a r t m e n t of the Army? 21 T H E W I T N E S S : Y e s . 22 Q. D i d y o u e v e r t r a v e l to F o r t D e t r i c k ? 2 3 A. Y e s . 24 In the 1 9 6 0 s ? 2 5 Yes . i .4SC5 w n n n nnri sninpili r+ifi /H rKArlUiNH. J Sim; 59 1 2 A. 3 'i 4 A. Q . Was that for social purposes? For r e v i e w s . Q What type of reviews? Program reviews. 5 ' Q. G with? Who did you have those program reviews 7 A. We d i d n ' t h a v e it. W e w e r e g u e s t s . 8 Q. W h o c o n d u c t e d t h e p r o g r a m r e v i e w s ? 9 A. D e t r i c k . 1 0 Q Was Dr. M i n a r i k at any of these p r o g r a m 11 : r e v i e w s ? 12 A. .Not t h a t I r e m e m b e r . 1 3 Q Who was at these program reviews? 14 :A. T h e c h i e f s o f t h e l a b o r a t o r i e s t h a t w e r e 1 5 r e v i e w i n g t h e i r :s e m i - a n n u a l p r o g r a m . 1 6 '-i ! Q W h i c h l a b o r a t o r i e s were lo cated at Fort 1 7 Detrick? 18 A . ' T h e b i o l o g i c a l l a b o r a t o r y u n d e r Dr. H o u s e w r i g h t 1 9 jii Q . W h a t o o t h e r l a b o r a t o r i e s w e r e l o c a t e d in 20 Fort D e t rick? I! 2 1 A . 1 d o n ' t k n o w o f a n y . 22 ; :i Q . .::j I|: Wha t in f or ma t io n was p r e s e n t e d at t h es e 23 ;r e v i e w s ? i 24 A..i I d o n ' t : r e m e m b e r . . -a o Q Q ii 2 5 Q. W h y w e r e y o u i n v i t e d to t h e s e r e v i e w s ? ii: Sim 60! 1 'A. W e i n v i t e d t h e m to o u r reviev/s . So t h e y 2 i nvi te d us to their reviews. I 3 Q. W h a t r e v i e w s d i d y o u h a v e at E d g e w o o d ? 1: i 4 A. E v e r y six m o n t h s t h e r e w a s a s e m i - a n n u a l review; j 5 i Q. Wh ere did these reviews take place? 1 6 A. T h e h e a d q u a r t e r s . 7 ' I Q. Where was the headqu a r t e r s ? S 1A . A t E d g e w o o d . 9 Q. W h o p a r t i c i p a t e d in t h e s e s e m i - a n n u a l 10 reviews? 1 1 A. T h e chiefs; of the d i v i s i o n s . S o m e t i m e s the 12 b r a n c h c h i e f s . 1 13 Q. T h a t 1w o u l d be the C h i e f of the B i o l o g i c a l 14 L a b o r a t o r y ? 1 5 .A . Y e s . i 16 1 ;;i' Q. Chief of the ClinicalResearch Division 17 'within the b i o l o g i c a l l a b o r a t o r y ? 13 .A. W a i t a m i n u t e . It is t h e M e d i c a l L a b o r a t o r y o r 19 the M e d i c a l B i o l o g i c a l L a b o r a t o r y . But w h e n y o u say 20 b i o l o g i c a l lab o r a t o r i e s , they are at Detrick. 21 Q. I m e a n t B i o m e d i c a l L a b o r a t o r y . 22 A . All: r i g h t . ; 23 Q. So at thiss e m i - a n n u a l r e v i e w the Chief 24 of the B i o m e d i c a l L a b o r a t o r y was in a t t e n d a n c e ? 25 A. C o r r e c t . . prsinAlli .A*** o Sim 61 1 Q. And the c h i e f s of e a c h of the d i v i s i o n s 2 within the Biomedical Laboratory? 3 A. C o r r e c t . 4 _ Q. Was the Chief of the Chemical L a b o r a t o r y 5 at this review? 6 A . Correc t . 7 Q. W e r e the c h i e f s of the d i v i s i o n s at t h e s e 8 reviews ? 9 A . Correct . 10 : Q. W e r e c e r t a i n b r a n c h c h i e f s from -- 1 1 A. S o m e s o m e t i m e s . 12 > Q. Let me finish. Were certain branch 13 chiefs from the Biomedical Laboratories and Chemical 14 L a b o r a t o r i e s in a t t e n d a n c e at t h e s e s e m i - a n n u a l 15 reviews? 16 A :. S o m e t i m e s . 17 Q. W e r e r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s of F o r t D e t r i c k in 18 attendance at t h e s e s e m i - a n n u a l r e v i e w s ? 19 A .: Y e s . 20 Q. W h i c h r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s f r o m F o r t D e t r i c k 21 a t t e n d e d t h e s e s e m i - a n n u a l r e v i e w s ? 2 2 A . W h o e v e r t h e y s e n t . 23 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l a n y o n e w h o w a s e v e r s e n t to 24 t he se s e m i - a n n u a l r e v i e w s ? n /I / hi | 2 5 A. T h e r e u s u a l l y m i g h t b e a h a l f a d o z e n o f t h e m S i m 62 1 ;there . !i 2 Q. Did Dr. Minarik ever attend any of these 3 semi-annual reviews? 4 :A . I don't remember, but he was. 5 Q Were any minutes taken o f these semi-annu 6 rev iews ? . 7 A Yes, I think there we r e . a Q . Did you receive copies P f those minutes? 9 A . No . 10 Q W h o r e c e i v e d c o p i e s of t he m i n u t e s ? 11 A . T h e C h i e f c h e m i c a l o f f i c e r w o u I d r e c e i v e a c o p y 1 2 Q . The only person who received the minutes 13 of the s e m i - a n n u a l r e v i e w s w a s the C h i e f C h e m i c a l 14 !O f f i c e r ? 15 |A . T h e e c h e l o n s a b o v e o u r l e v e l . 1 6 ! : Q. W h a t w e r e the e c h e l o n s a b o v e y o u r l e v e l ? 17 !A i T h e h e a d o f E d g e w o o d , w h o e v e r it w a s , a n d t h e 18 iChief c h e m i c a l offi cers, vari o u s branc h e s at 19 'Graveley Point. 2 0 1 `Q- W a s t h e r e a f o r m a l t i t l e fo r t h e h e a d of 2 1 IE d g e w o o d ? 22 ;A . W e l l , i t w a s u s u a l l y t h e C o m m a n d i n g G e n e r a l . 23 It m i g h t b e a C o m m a n d i n g C o l o n e l b u t it u s u a l l y w a s 2 4 ;a :C o m m a n d i n g G e n e r a l . . M {TX - 25 Q So the p e r s o n s who w o u l d h a v e r e c e i v e d Sim 63 1 !c o p i e s o f t h e m i n u t e s o f t h e s e m i - a n n u a l r e v i e w s 2 would be the Chief C h e m i c a l Officer, the head of 3 Edg ewood ? 4 A . And staff. 5 Q And staff? 6 Yes, and his staff 7 D i d th e h e a d of F o r t D e t r l c k a],so r e c e i v e a copies of the minutes? 9 A. I d o n ' t, k n o w . 1 0 Q. D i d the h e a d s of a n y of the l a b o r a t o r i e s 1 1 receive copies of the minutes? 1 2 A. I w o u l d i m a g i n e t h a t t h e y did. We d i d not. 1 3 Q. W h a t w a s the s u b j e c t of t h e s e s e m i - a n n u a l i j| '; 14 :r e v i e w s ? ! 1 5 iA J T h e p r o g r a m 16 Q. W h i c h p r o g r a m ? 1 7 A.; T h e c u r r e n t p r o g r a m t h a t w e a r e w o r k i n g at. 18 Q W e r e 'p r e s e n t a t i o n s m a d e these reviews 19 A.. Y e s . 20 Q. W h o m a d e t h e s e p r e s e n t a t i o n s ? 2 1 A. T h e r e s p o n s i b l e i n v e s t i g a t o r s . 22 Q. D i d y o u e v e r m a k e a p r e s e n t a t i o n at o n e 23 of t h e s e s e m i - -- 24 A. I ' m c e r t a i n t h a t I d i d . 14.Vi'53 25 Q Did e a c h of the d i v i s i o n c h i e f s m a k e a w n n n n n rl sninolli C Ci r I i fi - Sim 64 1 p r e s e n t a t i o n at these semi a n nu al r e v i e w s ? 2 A . Hot always. 3 Q. W h e n you m a d e a p r e s e n t a t i o n at o n e of | I 4 these semi-annual reviews, what was the subject of 5 your 6 A. I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r . 7 Q. Did y o u d i s c u s s the a c t i v i t i e s b e i n g 8 c a r r i e d on in the C l i n i c a l R e s e a r c h D i v i s i o n d u r i n g 9 that semi-annual period? 10 A. C e r t a i n l y . 11 Q. W e r e t h e r e u s u a l l y r e p o r t s f r o m d i v i s i o n 1 2 :c h i e f s in the C h e m i c a l L a b o r a t o r i e s ? 13 A . Usually. 14 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l w h e t h e r Dr. W i t t e n e v e r 15 r e p o r t e d at o n e o f t h e s e s e m i - a n n u a l r e v i e w s ? 16 :A. I ' m c e r t a i n he d i d . 1 7 Q. D i d Dr. J a n d o r f e v e r r e p o r t ? 18 A. I 'm c e r t a i n he m u s t h a v e . 19 Q. D i d Dr. M c N a m a r a e v e r r e p o r t at a n y of 20 these semi-annual reviews? 21 |A. I ' m c e r t a i n h e d i d . 22 Q. D i d Dr. H o f f m a n e v e r g i v e a p r e s e n t a t i o n 23 at a n y of t h e s e s e m i - a n n u a l r e v i e w s ? 24 A . Ra rely. 25 Q. Did he g i v e p r e s e n t a t i o n s on o c c a s i o n ? \*/nnn n n d n in o lli Siml 65 1 A. I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r b u t it was r a r e if he did. 2 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l w h e t h e r Dr. H o r t o n e v e r 3 'gave a p r e s e n t a t i o n at any after these semi- a n n u a l 4 reviews? 5 A. Y e s , I t h i n k so. 6 Q. W h o w a s Dr. H o r t o n ? 7 A. He w a s h e a d of the i n i t i a l t e s t i n g g r o u p of t h e 3 c h e m i c a l b r a n c h of O r g a n i c Chemist ry. 9 Q. D u r i n g w h a t t i m e did he s e r v e as h e a d of 10 that branch?. 1 1 A. I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r the time. L 2 Q. Did y o u k n o w Dr. H o r t o n ? 13 A . Sure. 14 Q. Did y o u h a v e d i s c u s s i o n s w i t h Dr. H o r t o n ? 1 5 A. Yes. 16 .I Q. What was the subject of those d i s c u s s i o n s ? 1 7 MR. LEVINE: Note my objection, please. 18 A. I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r . 19 Q. Did y o u r d i s c u s s i o n s c o n c e r n c h e m i c a l 20 compound s ? 2 1 A.; M i n e d i d n ' t , n o . H i s m i g h t h a v e . 22 .! Q. What would your discussions have 23 c o n c e r n e d ? ^5 i 24 I MR. LEVINE: Note my o b j ec tion, please. 2 5 A. N o a n s w e r . __ n: Sim 1 Q . Could I have an answer, p lease. GO 2 'A. 3 I don't remember. Q . Thank y o u . 4 MR. S I L B E R M A N : It is a f t e r o n e o 'c l o c k . 5 MR. GORDON: Exac t l y one o'clock. 6 MR. S I L B E R M A N : I w o u l d like to s u g g e s t 7 we adjourn with this examination until two o'clock. 8 MS. BERNOTT: Fine. Off the record. 9 (Discussion held off the record). 1 0 (The l u n c h e o n r e c e s s is take n ) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 --.ii: Sim 67 1 AFTERNOON SESSION 2! MS. BERNOTT: I will go on the record now. 3 I'd l i k e the r e c o r d to r e f l e c t t h a t Mr. G o r d o n is 4 d e l i b e r a t e l y l e a v i n g the room in o r d e r to p r e v e n t 5 `'the c o m m e n c e m e n t o f t h i s d e p o s i t i o n . A s w e a r r a n g e d 6 :before this d e p o s i t i o n was convened today, we would 7 :break for l u nc h at o ne o ' c l o c k and r e c o n v e n e at two 8 o ' c l o c k in the h o p e s of p r o c e e d i n g u n t i l at l e as t 9 Ithree in the h o p e s t h a t Mr. S c h r e i b e r , if p r e s e n t , 1 0 w o u l d a l l o w us to do so, and if not p r e s e n t , we 1 1 could s i m p l y p r o c e e d . Mr. G o r d o n ' s ac tions are a 1 2 t e r m i n a t i o n in the G o v e r n m e n t ' s v i e w of this 1 3 d e p o s i t i o n . He is u n p r e p a r e d to p r o c e e d and he is 14 u n w i l l i n g to p r o c e e d e v e n t h o u g h the G o v e r n m e n t is 15 h e r e and r e a d y and so is the w i t n e s s in r e s p o n s e to 16 the subpoena. 1 7 Is t h e r e a n y o n e else in the r o o m w ho 18 w an ts to ask the w i t n e s s q u e s t i o n s ? X428T 19 MR. K R O H L E Y : Y o u are b e i n g silly. The 20 parties aren't here yet. As soon as they arrive we 21 c o u l d b e g i n . It is four m i n u t e s a f t e r two r i g h t now. 22 MR. LEVINE : May I make a sugg estion , 23 M i s s B e r n o t t ? W h y n o t w a i t s o m e s h o r t p e r i o d of 24 time and then, if you w an t to do that we w i l l do it. 2 5 We h a v e a c c o m m o d a t e d p e o p l e in the oast. So that 11 Sim 68 1 kind of -- 2 MS. BERNOTT: What do you suggest, Mr. 3 L e vi n e, is a r e a s o n a b l e l e n g t h of time? Mr. G o r d o n 4 has j o i n e d us a g a i n . 5 MR. L E V I N E : W h o is not h e r e ? 6 MR. SILB ERMAN: Mr. Rivkin. 7 MR. M A T T H E W S : Mr. Tyrrell, Mr. Ta ylo r. 8 MR. LEVINE: Mr. T a y l o r r e p r e s e n t s 9 p l a i n t i f f s . Vie a r e n o t w o r r i e d a b o u t h i m . M r . 1 0 R i v k i n is h e r e . W h o e l s e ? 1 1 MR. S I LBERMAN: Tyrrell. 12 MR. M A T T H E W S : He r e p r e s e n t s M o n s a n t o . 1 3 MR. LEVINE: Why not wait a few m i nutes 14 for Mr. T y r r e l l . 1 5 MS. BERNOTT: We will wait a few m i n u t e s 1 6 for Mr. Tyrrell. 17 MR.RIVKIN: Mark this portion. I'd like 1 8 to h e a r it later. I h a v e n ' t h e a r d it. 19 MR. L E V I N E : E v e r y o n e is h e r e . 2 0 MR. SILBERMAN: Miss Neiman for Uniroya-I. 21 M R . R I V K I N : I am s t e p p i n g out of th e r o o m . 22 P l e a s e feel free to s t art w i t h o u t me. I will be 23 b a c k in a m i n u t e . 24 MS. B E R N O T T : Mr. G o r d o n , coul d we g e t 2 5 started now. 14238 w a c a an d Dine!!: CRrtifif^n qiuutnnnd S itu 69 1 MR . GORDON : 0 n wh at? 2 MS . B E R N O T T : The deposition. 3 MR . GORDON : We are waiting for Special 4 Master Schreiber. 5 MS . B E R N O T T : Is it your p o s i t i o n that 6 this d e p o s i t i o n i s not g o i n g to p r oc e e d ? 7 MR . G O R D O N : It is that we had a 8 d e p o s i t i o n s e s s i o n this m o r n i n g and that p u r s u a n t to 9 the d i r e c t i o n of S p e c i a l M a s t e r S c h r e i b e r we w e r e to 10 adjourn from one o'cl o c k to two when he would be 11 `a r r i v i n g f o r a p r e - t r i a l c o n f e r e n c e . 1 2 MS. BERNOTT: I'm curious to know when 13 this d i r e c t i o n b y t h e S p e c i a l M a s t e r w a s g i v e n to i 1 4 ;y o u . 1 5 ;' i ' ; !! ;i ;: m r . GORDON: At the c o n c l u s i o n of the 16 last p r e-trial conference. Mr. Maskin was there 1 7 along wi th the d e f e n d a n t and p l a i n t i f f s . 18 'j ;1 M S . BERNOTT: Yesterday we had agreed we 19 iwould k e e p this w i t n e s s h e r e to k e e p this w i t n e s s -- 20 | MR. GO RDON: We agreed that when the 2 1 !Special Master arrived we would proceed until 3 22 'o'c l o c k to m a k e m o r e h e a d w a y . 23 ! MS. BERNOTT: And now you are c h a n g i n g 24 your m in d and not m a k i n g m or e h e a d w a y . 25 MR. GORDON: Not until Special Master Sim 70 1 S c h r e i b e r is h e r e . T h a t ' s c l e a r f r o m this m o r n i n g . 2 P u r s u a n t to the o rder a p p o i n t i n g Special Master 3 Schreiber, requesting that Special Master Schreiber 4 be h e r e at l eas t for the next s e s s i o n of Dr. S i m ' s 5 deposition. That would be this afternoon. 6 Depending on the results this afternoon, my request 7 is t h a t he be p r e s e n t for the r e m a i n d e r of Dr. S i m ' s 8 deposition. 9 MS. B E R N O T T : It is my i n t e r p r e t a t i o n of 1 0 w h a t y o u are s a y i n g that y o u r e f u s e to p r o c e e d w i t h 1 1 this deposition although the witness.is ready and 12 w i l l i n g to give testimony. 13 MR. G O R D O N : T h a t ' s not w h a t I said. 14 MR. T A Y L O R : I w a s in a t t e n d a n c e at this 15 m e e t i n g . It was m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g that we w e r e to 16 conduct this d e p o s i t i o n up until the time the 1 7 S p e c i a l M a s t e r a r r i v e d at w h i c h point we w o u l d 1 8 d e t e r m i n e w h e t h e r to c o n t i n u e this d e p o s i t i o n at 1 9 .some f u r t h e r time. 20 MR. G O R D O N : Mr. T a y l o r , I w i l l r e p e a t to 21 you what. S p e c i a l M a s t e r S c h r e i b e r told me at the 22 c o n c l u s i o n of the last p r e - t r i a l c o n f e r e n c e , and 2 3 t h a t w a s t h a t we. w e r e to b r e a k for l u n c h at o n e 24 o ' c l o c k and at two o ' c l o c k r e c o n v e n e for a p r e - t r i a l 25 c o n f e r e n c e l a s t i n g for p e r h a p s an h o u r and a hal f , lit _x:t:_ Sim 71 1 , at the c o n c l u s i o n of that hour and a half we wouId 2 ; r e c o n v e n e the d e p o s i t i o n of Dr. Sim. 3 , MR. TAYLOR: Are you speaking about the 4 : J u n e 22, 1932 h e a r i n g ? 5. MS. BERNOTT: Oh, we h a v e it r i g h t h e r e . 6 '; MR. TAYLOR: Y ou m i g h t r e f e r us to the 7 : pertinent sections. 3 MR. GORDON: When Special Master 9 : Schreiber arrives, you can ask him. 10 ; : MR. TAYLOR: I hand you my copy. 11 MR. G O R D O N : W h y not s p e n d ten m i n u t e s 1 2 looking for the spot. 13 ; MR. LEVINE: If you are g o i n g to take the 14 p o s i t i o n , Mi ss B e r n o t t , that you are not g o i n g to 15 ; p r o d u c e thi s w i t n e s s a g a i n , u n l e s s o r d e r e d to do so ;:i . ; ; 16 ?iby T h e M a s t e r or the J u d g e , t h e n I w o u l d like to ask 17 ;h im some q u e s t i o n s . 18 MS. B E R N O T T : I w o u l d be h a p p y to h a v e 19 |the' w i t n e s s a n s w e r q u e s t i o n s for y o u as lo n g as no 20 other defendant; has q u e s t i o n s . I t h i n k the r o u t i n e i 21 i w o u l d b e t h a t t h e y g o f i r s t . It is m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g 22 that t h e y do. W h y not just p r o c e e d , Mr. L e v i n e . 2 3 MR. GORDON: I ob j ec t to any e x a m i n a t i o n 24 at this time. 0w ?i. 25 MR. L E V I N E : Y o u m a y be r i g h t in y o u r w n n n nnri ninolli fltfirt/'i Jm m -- I I j Sim 72 1 jcontention that you need not go ahead at this time 2 and M iss B e r n o t t is w r o n g in her i n t e r p r e t a t i o n . 3 ::;3 u t i f it s o h a p p e n s t h a t t h e r e is a r u l i n g l a t e r 4 ;that the l ady is r i g h t and y ou are w r o ng , then my 5 r i g h t s to e x a m i n e w i l l h a v e b e e n p r e j u d i c e d b y ray 6 g o i n g a l o n g w i t h y o u r g a m e p l a n , su to s p e a k . I a m 7 g o i ng to go a h e a d and ask just very few q u e s t i o n s at 8 ithis time. 9 MR. GORDON: Hang on. 1 0 M R . R I V K I N : As long as I d o n ' t lose any 1 1 rights, I have no o b j e c t i o n . 1 2 MR. L E V I N E : If a n y t h i n g , it m e a n s I am 1 3 go ing out of turn. 14 M S . B E R N O T T : I n t r o d u c e y o u r s e l f to the 1 5 .witness, please. ;I 1 6 i U M R . M A T T H E W S : Are we wait i n g for Miss 1 7 Neiman or not? 18 MS. B E R N O T T : It is a q u a r t e r a f t e r . 1 9 CROSS E X A M I N A T I O N BY MR. LEVINE: 20 Q. I am o n e of the a t t o r n e y s for the 21 P l a i n t i f f s in the A g e n t O r a n g e l i t i g a t i o n . G o o d 22 a f t e r n o o n . t i 23 A . Good afternoon. 02 24 Q. Y o u t a l k e d a b o u t t h e r e b e i n g s e m i - a n n u a l 2 5 eviews between Fort Detrick and Edgewood personnel Sim 73 1 t o r e v i e w m a t t e r t h a t w a s d e n e in t ^ e p r e c e d i n g h a 1 fj 2 year and -- 3 ;! MR. S I L B E R M A N : Here comes the S p e c i a l 4 Master. 51 MR. LE VINE: 1 am asking the qu es ti o n. 6 Let me finish the question. 7 M R . R I V K I N : And then break. 8 1; Q . Did any of those meetings that you 9 attended, sir, deal with the question of dioxin? 1 0 A. No. 11 Q. Di d a n y m e e t i n g s t hat y o u h a d in y o u r 12 years of service that you described earlier with 1 3 y o u r f e l l o w s at the E d g e w o o d A r s e n a l ever c o n c e r n an 14 e v a l u a t i o n by y ou r d e p a r t m e n t or r e l a t e d d e p a r t m e n t s 15 at E d g e w o o d into d i o x i n ? 1 6 A. No. 17 MR. L E V I N E : I a m not g o i n g to ask 18 f u r t h e r q u e s t i o n s at this time since we are f a v o r e d 19 by a v i s i t by The M a s t e r -- 20 MS. BERN OTT: He just left. 21 MR. L E V I N E : I w i l l s u s p e n d a n y f u r t h e r 22 q u e s t i o n i n g u n t i l his H o n o r d e c i d e s w h a t we are to 23 do h e r e . Of c o u r s e , I g i v e up no r i g h t s to f u r t h e r 24 e xam ina t ion . 25 MS. B E R N O T T : I u n d e r s t a n d n U Sim 74 1 MR. LE VI M E : S i n c e we are w a i t i n g , I ca n 2 ask another question. 3 Q. In y o u r y e a r s at E d g e w o o d in the c a p a c i t y 4 as y o u d e s c r i b e d e a r l i e r , d i d it c o m e to y o u r 5 a t t e n t i o n that any a n a l y t i c a l or other type of work 6 r e f e r a b l e to d i o x i n was undertaker: at E d g e w o o d ? 7 No t to my k n owledge. a Q So if it wa s , y o u d o n ' t k n o w it, r i g h t 7 9 I f it wa s . 10 Q . Did you ever have a conversation with any 11 of t h e p e o p l e y o u m e n t i o n e d t o d a y ox a n y o t h e r 1 2 p e o p l e not m e n t i o n e d t o d a y w h o w e r e e m p l o y e d at 1 3 E d g e w o o d r e f e r a b l e to the q u e s t i o n of d i o x i n ? 14 ; A . I d o n ' t know. I'm not cert ai n. 1 5 ; j-j} | Q. I f y.cju d i d , y o u d o n ' t r e c a l l , is t h a t 16 c '.1! o1 r j re c t ? 17 A . I d o n ' t r e c a l l . ii ' 18 | M Q. Did y o u e v e r h a v e a n y c o n v e r s a t i o n w i t h 19 a n y p e r s o n n e l t h a t w o r k e d for F o r t D e t r i c k to the 20 e f f e c t that Fort D e t r i c k p e o p l e had d o n e some 21 . i n v e s t i g a t i o n of d i o x i n ? 22 A . No . 23 M R . R I V K I N : The M a s t e r is h e r e . 24 MR. LEVINE: I c o n c l u d e at this time 25 b e c a u s e of T h e M a s t e r ' s a p p e a r a n c e w i t h o u t g i v i n g up w n r w i nnrl cr"\ineilli -- 1 i L. Sim 75 1 a n y r i g h t s to f u r t h e r q u e s t i o n i n g at a f u t u r e time. 2 MS. BERNOTT: T hank you, Mr- Lev ine. 3 MR. GORDON: We are s t a r t i n g with the 4 c onference now. ;I : 5i MS. B E R N O T T : C o u l d we h av e an off the 6 record little quickie here? 7 :l i MR.RIVKIN: I'd rather not have anything 3 off the record. 9 MS. ;BERNOTT: Then perhap s the court 10 ' r e p o r t e r c a n j u s t r e s u m e . I ' d l i k e t o k e e p D r . S i m 11 h e r e if I may, f o r a f e w m i n u t e s . 1 2 MS. BERNOTT: W hy not sit down, Mr. 13 S c h r e i b e r . 14 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : L et me 1 5 ; i n t r o d u c e m y s e l f . My n ame is Sol S c h r e i b e r . I am a :i( ;; ; 1 6. .M S p e c i a l M a s t e r . : I ;a m h e r e to k e e p p e a c e , if t h a t b e 1 7 :jpossible. So I will referee the p r o ceedings. Mr. 18 G o r d o n , do you w i s h to c o n t i n u e ? ;i g i 19 i| MR. G O R D O N : T h a n k you, y o u r Elonor. 20 BY MR. G O R D O N : 21 p; q j' j I w o u ld like to b e g i n w it h one of the 22 !first q u e s t i o n s we a ske d t his m o r n i n g to w h i c h I 23 d i d n ' t r e c e i v e an a n s w e r to, I d o n ' t t h i n k . You 24 ,:w i l l c o r r e c t m e if* I a m w r o n g . 25 A r e you r e p r e s e n t e d h e r e t o d a y b y legal Sim 75 1 a n y r i g h t s to f u r t h e r q u e s t i o n i n g at a f u t u r e t i m e . 2; 3 M S . B E R N O T T : T h a n k y o u , Mi-. L e v i n e . MR . GO R D O N : W e are starting with the 4 conference now 5, MS . B E R N O T T : Could we have an off the 6 record little quicKie here? 7 M R .R I V K I N : I 'd r a t h e r n o t h a v e a n y t h i n g 3 off the record. 9 MS. BERNOTT: Then perhaps the court 10 ir e p o r t e r can just resume. I'd like to kee p Dr. Sim 11 ; 'he r e if I may, f o r a f e w m i n u t e s . 1 2 MS. B E RN O T T : W h y not sit down, Mr. 13 S c h r e i b e r . 14 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : Let me 1 -| 15 i n t r o d u c e m y s e l f . My n a m e is Sol S c h r e i b e r . I am a ' f"; # ' 16 . [ S p e c i a l M a s t e r . I am h e r e to k e e p p e a c e , if that be I :; 1 7 [possible. So I will referee the pro c e e d i n g s . Mr. 18 !G o r d o n , d o y o u w i s h to c o n t i n u e ? i; 1 9 MR. G O R D O N : T h a n k you, y o u r Elonor. 20 BY MR. G O RD O N: 21 Q . I wo u 1d l i k e to b e g i n w i t h o n e o f the 22 first q u e s t i o n s we a s k e d this m o r n i n g to w h i c h I 23 d i d n 1t r e c e i v e an a n s w e r t o , I d o n ' t th i nk . Y o u 24 will c o r r e c t m e if I a m w r o n g . J.4^0 25 A r e y o u r e p r e s e n t e d h e r e t o d a y b y l e g a l w n n n nnri snin^lli -- % -- J -- Sim 76 1 counsel? 2 MS. B ER N O T T : D i r e c t i o n not to a n s we r . 3 MR. GORDON: On what ground? 4 MS. BERNOTT: On the ground of 5 attorney-client privilege and other privileges. 6 : ii SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: i I think I sort 7 of mad e it clear that un l es s the w i t n e s s 8 s p e c i f i c a l l y a d v i s e s t h a t G o v e r n m e n t c o u n s e l is 9 a p p e a r i n g as his co unsel, the w i tn e s s may c o n s u l t 10 w i t h G o v e r n m e n t c o u n s e l but I d o n ' t see any r e a s o n 11 w h y we h a v e to at t h i s s t a g e g e t i n t o a t e c h n i c a l 12 d e f i n i t i o n . 13 W h a t is the p u r p o s e of the q u e s t i o n , Mr. 14 G o r d o n ? 15 MR. G O R D O N : To d e t e r m i n e w h e t h e r t h e r e 1 6 is a n y a p p l i c a b i l i t y of a t t o r n e y - c 1 ient p r i v i l e g e in 1 7 her d i s c u s s i o n s with Dr Sim. 1 8 M R . R I V K I N : The same g r o u n d as -- * n u 19 MS. B E R N O T T : It a l s o see k s a le g a l 20 c o n c l u s i o n . The w i t n e s s is e n t i t l e d to legal a d v i c e 21 on h o w to a n s w e r a l e g a l q u e s t i o n . I w o u l d be h a p p y 22 to a n s w e r the leg a l q u e s t i o n if the C o u r t is 23 i n t e r e s t e d in k n o w i n g w h a t it is, w h a t m y a n s w e r is. 24 MR. GO RDON: We asked the same q u e s t i o n 2 5 of Dr. J a n d o r f y e s t e r d a y and he a n s w e r e d no . Sim; 76 1 counsel? 2 : :; M S . B E R N O T T : D i r e c t i o n iio t t o a n s w e r 3 :i' 1! 4 M R . G O R D O N . O n w h a t g r o u n d ? MS . B E R N O T T : On the ground o f 5 a t t o r n e y - c l i e n t p r jvile ge and other pri v i l e g e s . 6 SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: I think I sort 7 of 'made it clear that unle ss the w i t n e s s 8 s p e c i f i c a l l y a d v i s e s t h a t G o v e r n m e n t c o u n s e l is 9 a p p e a r i n g as his counsel, the witness may consul t 10 w i t h G o v e r n m e n t c o u n s e l but I d o n ' t see any r e a s o n 1 1 why we have to at this stage get into a technical 12 d e f i n i t i o n . 13 W h a t is t h e p u r p o s e of the q u e s t i o n , Mr. 14 G o r d on ? 1 5 !! MR. GORDON: To d e t e r m i n e w h e t h e r there 1 6 'i's, any a p p l i c a b i l i t y o f a t t o r n e y - c l i e n t p r i v i l e g e i n 17 h e r d i s c u s s i o n s w i t h Dr. Sim. IS i | MR.RIVKIN: The same ground as -- 19 ; '! MS. B E R N O T T : It a l s o seeks a legal 20 c o n c l u s i o n . T h e w i t n e s s is e n t i t l e d to l e g a l a d v i c e 21 'on: |how t o a n s w e r a l e g a l q u e s t i o n . I w o u l d be h a p p y 22 t o i i a n s w e r the l e g a l q u e s t i o n if the C o u r t is 23 in tie r e's t e d in k n o w i n g w h a t it is, w h a t m y a n s w e r is . 24 ; MR. GORDON: We asked the same q u e s t i o n ,rj 1430 25 of' Dr. J a n d o r f y e s t e r d a y a n d he a n s w e r e d "n o . Sim 75 1 any r i g h t s to f u r t h e r q u e s t i o n i n g at a fu t u r e time. 2 i .i. ; ! [' ' " 3 . M S jB E R N O T T : T h a n h '! MR. GORDON: We are you, Mr. scarring Levine. with the 4 p] c o n f e r e n c e n o w . 5 ;j i MS. E ^ R N O T T : C o u l d wc h a v e an off the 6 ; record little quickie here? 7 M R . RLY.KIN: I'd r a th er not have a n y t h i n g 3 ; o f f t h e r e c o r d . d .;. 9 MS. BERNOTT: Then perh aps the court 10 r e p o r t e r can just resume. I'd like to keep Dr. Sim 11 ! h e r e if I may, t o r a few m i n u t e s . 1 2 MS. BERNOTT: W h y not sit down, Mr. 13 ;, S c h r e i b e r . j. ,i . 14 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : Let me 15 i i n t r o d u c e m y s e l f . My name is Sol S c h r e i b e r . I am a 1 6 S p e c i a l M a s t e r . I am here to k e e p peace, if that be 17 p o s s i b l e . . .S.o;J)nw i l l r e f e r e e t h e p r o c e e d i n g s . Mr. 18 G o r d o n , d o yo>u ^ i s h to c o n t i n u e ? 19 MR. G O R D O N : T h a n k you, y o u r Honor. 20 BY MR. G O R D O N : . 21 Q . I wqvild l i k e to b e g i n w i t h o n e of th e 22 first q u e s t i o n ^ we a s ked this m o r n i n g to w h i c h I 23 d i d n ' t r e c e i v e nan a n s w e r t o , I d o n ' t t h i n k . Y o u 2 4 w i l l c o r r e c t me; i f I a m w r o n g . .143 25 A r e ry o u r e p r e s e n t e d h e r e t o d a y b y l e g a l u / n n n nnrl cninolU i-- --J Sim 76 1 counsel? 2 MS . BERNOTT: ion not to answ er 3 MR. GORDON: On what ground? 4 MS. BERNOTT: On the ground of 5 attorney-client privilege and other privileges. 6 SPECIAL MASTER SCEiREIBER: I think I sort 7 of mad e it c l ea r that un l es s the w i t n e s s 8 s p e c i f i c a l l y a d v i s e s t h a t G o v e r n m e n t c o u n s e l is 9 a p p e a r i n g as his counsel, the w i t n e s s may c o n s u l t 10 w i t h G o v e r n m e n t co u n s el but I d o n ' t see any re as o n 1 1 why we have to at this stage get into a technical 12 d e f i n i t i o n . 13 W h a t is the p u r p o s e of the q u e s t i o n , Mr. 14 Gordon? 15 f;H |; * ' MR. GORDON: To d e t e r m i n e whethe r there 16 is- a n y a p p l i c a b i l i t y o f a t t o r n e y - c 1 i e n t p r i v i l e g e i n 17 her d i s c u s s i o n s w i t h Dr. Sim. 18 19 ! i M R . R T V K I N : The same gr ou n d as -- MS. B E R N O T T : It a l s o seeks a legal 20 c o n c l u s i o n . The w i t n e s s is e n t i t l e d to legal a d v i c e 21 on: h o w t o a n s w e r a l e g a l q u e s t i o n . I w o u l d b e h a p p y 22 to a n s w e r the l e g a l q u e s t i o n if the C o u r t is 23 i n t e r e s t e d in k n o w i n g w h a t it is, w h a t m y a n s w e r is. 24 MR. GORDO N: We asked the same q ues t 25 of Dr. J a n d o r f y e s t e r d a y and he answ e r e d no . Sim 77 1 When I asked Miss Bernott about that, she 2 simply referred us to here appea r a n c e on the record. 3 H e r a p p e a r a n c e s is l i s t e d for the U n i t e d S t a t e s and 4 'not for Dr. J a nd o r f . She stood on that a p p e a r a n c e . 5 SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: I am assuming 6 that Miss Bernott r epresents the Unit ed States 7 G o v e r n m e n t in this p r o c e e d i n g and I am a s s u m i n g that 3 because of some of the sensitive nature of the 9 i s s u e s that may be i nv ol ved, che G o v e r n m e n t m a y h a v e 10 an o b j e c t i o n w h e r e the w i t n e s s d o e s n ' t h a v e an 11 ob j ec t i o n . 12 R a t h e r than try to a n s w e r the u n a n s w e r a b l 1 3 oat this stage, why don't we proceed and I will rule 14 t o n s p e c i f i c o b j e c t i o n s on a t t o r n e y - c l i e n t as they go 15 ; a l o n g . A l t h o u g h it is w o r t h y of b r i e f i n g and I w i l l 16 i accept any briefs submitted by the parties on the 17 : ma tter . 18 M R . G O R D O N : Vie w i l l s u b m i t a b r i e f , 1 9 ii! Q. Dr. Sim, did you mee t w it h Miss B e r n o t t I 20 or a n y o n e else in p r e p a r a t i o n for y o u r e x a m i n a t i o n 21 h e r e t o d a y ? 22 MS. B E R N O T T : Y o u c o u l d a n s w e r the 23 'question. 24 A . Yes. 1 4 Pi ' 9 25 Q. W h e n id id y o u m e e t w i t h M i s s B e r n o t t ? w n n n n n d sninplli V Sim 73 1 A. T h i s m o r n i n g . 2 Q. For h o w l o n g ? 3 A. 40 m i n u t e s . 4 Q. Did she s h o w y o u a n y d o c u m e n t s this 5 morning? 6 A.. No . 7 ; ' Q. What did you talk about this morning? 3 i ' 9 MS. B E R N O T T : D i r e c t i o n not to a n sw er . MR. L E V I N E : T h a t ' s o b j e c t e d to, y o u r 1 0 Honor. 11 M R . R I V K I N : M a y I be h e a r d on the 1 2 argument, sir? i 13 ! ^ S P E C I A L MAS T E R SCHREIBER: No. I think 14 the w i t n e s s can give a g e n er a l answer, a ge ne r al 15 d e s c r i p t i o n of all th i s t a l k but no need to go i n t o 1 6 s p e c i f i c s as such at this stage. 17 A. In e s s e n c e , ' w h a t I s a i d is s t a t e d the f a c t s as 18 you know them.That's it. 19 \ Q. Did shement i o n Dr. Hoffman durin g your 20 m e e t i n g this m o r n i n g ? 21 A. No. 22 MS. B E R N O T T : D i r e c t i o n not to a n s w e r . I 23 w il l d i r e c t not to a n s w e r all the s e q u e s t i o n s , y o u r 24 H o n o r . I take e x c e p t i o n to the r u l i n g . ^ O ** r) 25 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : Y ou r o b j e c t i o n w rrn n n n H ninolli r* \ffifi/*i Sim': 79 1 is n o t e d . I t h i n k w e h a v e l a i d dov/n the g r o u n d r u l e 2 that the w i t n e s s m a y be a s k e d if he saw any p a p e r s 3 or he s p o k e to i t , but it is a g e n e r a l q u e s t i o n , and 4 f u r t h e r s p e c i f i c i t y is not r e q u i r e d u n le ss t h e r e be 5 some basis for c o n t i n u i n g the i m p e a chment of the 6 witness. 7 MS. BERNOTT: Thank you. 8 SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: Are you going 9 to thank me when I d i s a g r e e with you? 10 MS. B E R N O T T : I t h i n k t h at 's an 11 a c c e p t a b l e d i s a g r e e m e n t . 1 2 Q. D i d M i s s B e r n o t t m e n t i o n a n y 13 Ic o n s i d e r a t i o n s o f s t a t e s e c r e c y t h a t w o u l d be 14 a p p l i c a b l e t o d a y d u r i n g y o u r d e p o s i t i o n ? 15 .A . N o . ! i 1 6 '! Q. ; Did she talk ab out your work at E d g e w o o d ? . _i ! ' 1 7 'A . I About my work? 18 ; i ;! ' Q . ':jH | 19 A . No. Yes. I 20 Q. Did she talk about the work of anyone 21 e l s e at E d g e w o o d ? -; :| :I 22 A. No'. ; 23 .1 S P E C I A L MASTER SCHR EIBER: I think we 24 h a v e gone far enough, Mr. G o r d o n . q? 25 ! MS. BERNOTT: T h a n k you, your Honor. w n n n n n H cn in ia lli rfiii mm Sim; 80 1 SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: Miss Bernott, 2 ;I w i s h t o a d v i s e y o u a n d a l l c o u n s e l in f o 1 1 o w i n g Jn t h e t r a d i t i o n o f J u d g e W e i n f e l d o f t h e S o u t h e r n 4 District Court, that the Master should not be 5 thanked either way. Let's just dispense with thanks 6 It look s funn y on the record. 7 MS. BERNOTT: No comment. 8 SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIEER: I prefer that. 9 Next question. 10 Q. Dr. Sim, I'd like to r e t u r n to the 11 s u b j e c t o f d i o x i n , w h i c h is w h e r e we l e f t o f f t h i s 12 m o r n i n g . 13 W h e n d i d you f i r s t h e a r of d i o x i n ? 1 4 . ..I ' 15 M R . L;E V I N E : A s k e d a n d a n s w e r e d . SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: That's going 16 to b e |h a rd, c o u n s e l . I r e a l i z e that u n l e s s we h a v e 1 7 t o ; g e t t h e t r a n s c r i p t , t h e r e is g o i n g to be s o m e 18 r e p e t i t i o n in o r d e r to m ov e it along. 1 9 MR. LEVINE: I will w i t h d r a w that. 20 i S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : It s h o u l d n ' t 21 be b l o w b y b l o w a c c o u n t o f t h e m o r n i n g p r o c e e d i n g . 22 A.- I c o u l d n ' t tell y ou the d a t e p r e c i s e l y . 23 ; Q* W h a t w o u l d be y o u r b e s t e s t i m a t e of the 24 d a t e ? 25 .A S o m e t i m e in the s i x t i e s , b u t I d o n ' t k n o w . w a a a n n d snin^lli --- 1 Sim 81 1 Q. Were- y o u s t i l l s e r v i n g as C h i e f of the 2 Clinical R e s e a r c h D i v i s i o n at the time that you 3 ;first heard about dioxin? 4 A . I'm not certain whether I was Deputy Director 5 or just C h i e f of the C l i n i c a l R e s e a r c h D i v i s i o n . It 6 doesn't really make much difference since I was both 7 Q. H o w d i d y o u c o m e to h e a r a b o u t d i o x i n ? 8 A. I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r s p e c i f i c a l l y . H o w e v e r , t h e r e 9 wer e -- you are talk i n g about prior to 1970? 1 0 Q. Yes. L e t me a s k you, h a v e y o u h e a r d of 11 d i o x i n p r i o r to 1 9 7 0 ? 1 2 A. Yes, I h a v e . I h a d no i n t e r e s t in it 1 3 w h a t s o e v e r . As far as we w e r e c o n c e r n e d in M e d i c a l , 14 all I had h e a r d is t h a t the m a t e r i a l was toxic. 15 Q. W h o did y o u h e a r t h a t the m a t e r i a l w a s 1 6 ;t o x i c f rom? 1 7 ;A. P r o b a b l y s e v e r a l p e o p l e . 18 Q . W h o w e r e those p e r s o n s ? 19 A. It m i g h t h a v e b e e n F r i t z H o f f m a n -- 20 1 : MR. LEVINE: O b j e c t i o n to that. It m i g h t 21 h a v e b e e n , y o u r H o n o r . 22 j S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : It is a 23 ^ p r o b a b i l i t y on the p a r t of the d o c t o r . 24 A . It m i g h t h av e b e e n Dr. J a n d o r f . ! 25 Q . W h o e l s e ? 4 3 1.S w a n n n n d sninelli r'or+ifio/H chrir'fr<-\ >~n .4 ~ Sim 82 1 A . It m i g h t h a v a b e e n Dr. W i tt en . 2 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l e v e r h a v i n g a n y d i s c u s s i o n 3 with Dr . Ho f fman c o n c e r n i n g dioxin? 4 A . Not d i r e c t l y as an individual, no . 5 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l e v e r s e e i n g a n y d o c u m e n t s 6 p r e p a r e d by Dr. H o f f m a n c o n c e r n i n g d i o x i n ? \ *7 A. I f I d i d , I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r t h e m . T h e y m a y 8 exist . 9 Q. W h a t is the b a s i s for y o u r b e l i e f t h a t 10 you m a y h a v e had d i s c u s s i o n s w it h Dr. H o f f m a n 11 c o n c e r n i n g d i o x i n ? 1 2 .A.. I d i d n ' t s a y t h a t . 13 : ' MR. LEVINE: May I interrupt for a moment. 14 W i ll s o m e o n e r e v i e w for me as to w h o he s p o ke to -- 15 S P E C I A L M A S T E R 3 C H R E I B E R : L e t the i i I ; ': 16 'r e p o r t e r r e a d it b a c k . 17 MR. KROEiLEY: H o f f m a n , J a n d o r f and -- 18 i! 19 ! MR.RIVKIN: Thank you. MR. LEVINE: I d o n ' t a p p r e i c a t e that. 20 (Read by the r e p o r t e r ) 21 MR. G O R D O N : R e p e a t the l a s t q u e s t i o n . 22 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : We d o n ' t n e e d 23 t h e h o r s e p l a y . 24 Q. W h a t d i d y o u j u s t t e s t i f y to c o n c e r n i n g 25 d i o x i n and Dr. H o f f m a n ? 1 4 31-7 \kir~\t~ir~i i-irvH er'iirualli Sim: 03 1 A. I t e s t i f i e d t h a t I m a y h a v e t a l k e d to Dr. 2 'Hoffman, or he m a y h a v e t a l k e d to me a b o u t it. It also, m i g h t h a v e b e e n Dr. Witter.. It m i g h t h a v e b e e n 4 Dr, J a n d o r f . I c o u l d n ' t t e l l y o u w h o it w as o u t of 5 the three. It c o u l d h a v e b e e n all t h ree of them. 6 Since they are all three friends of n i n e , since I 7 saw them often. ! 8 Q. A r e y o u a w a r e of a n y i n v o l v e m e n t t h a t Dr. . 9 ...' .| .iHoffman h a d w i t h d i o x i n ? 10 ;A . I d o n ' t k n o w t h a t h e h a d a n y i n v o l v e m e n t . 11 !P l e a s e d e f i n e t h e w o r d " i n v o l v e m e n t " . I d o n ' t k n o w 12 :what y o u m e a n b y " i n v o l v e m e n t " . 1 3 Q. A r e y o u a w a r e w h e t h e r Dr. H o f f m a n h a d a n y 14 k n o w l e d g e c o n c e r n i n g d i o x i n ? 1 5 A. I ' m a w a r e t h a t h e p r o b a b l y d i d , y e s . 16 MR. LEVINE: Note my objection, please. 1 7 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l m e e t i n g w i t h me in M a r c h of 18 ;.t h i s y e a r ? 19 A . Y e s . 20 : I; Q. Do you recall telling me that Hoffman 21 m e n t i o n e d d i o x i n on a t r i p -- 22 : MR. LEVINE: Objection. 14318 23 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : C o u n s e l , he 24 m u s t be p e r m i t t e d to ask the q u e s t i o n . T h e n I w il l 2 5 hear your objection. The doctor will not answer w ann a n d sninelli rOrtifiaH ch^rth/^n/^ Sim 84 1 until I rule on the objection. Go ahead. 2 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l t e l l i n g me d u r i n g th a t 3 m e e t i n g that Dr. H o f f m a n h a d m e n t i o n e d d i o x i n in a 4 t r i p r e p o r t t hat he had p r e p a r e d a f t e r a v i s i t to 5 Germany? 6 ! :! MR. L E V I N E : O b j e c t e d to. 7 SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: You may answer 8 that, if you can. 9 A. I r e m e m b e r t h a t I t o l d y o u t h a t I t h o u g h t 10 H o f f m a n h a d m e n t i o n e d this, and that he had w r i t t e n 11 a t r i p r e p o r t , b u t I d i d n ' t k n o w w h e r e it w a s u n l e s s 1 2 it w as in his files. I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r its c o n t e n t s . 13 ^ Q. Do y o u r e c a l l t e l l i n g me t h a t in t h i s 14 trip r e po r t Dr. H o f f m a n r e c o u n t e d a s t ory of a 15 G e r m a n p l a n t in w h i c h o c c u p a t i o n a l e x p o s u r e to 16 :d i o x i n h a d c a u s e d c h l o r a c n e and a f e w f a t a l i t i e s ? 1 7 MR. L E V I N E : O b j e c t e d to. 13 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S d HR E I B E R : O b j e c t i o n 19 o v e r r u 1 ed . 20 A.! Yes, and a l s o o t h e r c o m p o u n d s . 21 Q. W h a t w e r e t h o s e o t h e r c o m p o u n d s . 22 A.| M u l t i p l e c o m p o u n d s t hat he ran a c r o s s in 23 G e r m a n y . 24 Q. W h e n d i d y o u f i r s t b e c o m e a w a r e of t h i s 25 t r i p r e p o r t that y o u r e f e r r e d to? w n a n a n d sninf^lli -----*--- S irn 35 1 '.A; I c a n n o t t e l l y o u t h e d a t e . 2 Q. Did y o u e v e r see t h i s t r i p r e p o r t ? 3 A .. I d o n ' t K n o w . I f I d i d , m y s i g n a t u r e w o u l d b e 4 on it s o m e p l a c e . But I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r . 5 SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: Certain 6 r e p o r t s r e q u i r e r e a d e r s to s i g n them, is t h a t 7 correct? 8 THE W I T N E S S : Y e s . 9 Q. Did y o u e v e r h e a r of a t r i p r e p o r t 10 p r e p a r e d by Dr. Hoffman c o n c e r n i n g dioxin? 1 1 A. E x c e p t y o u r e m i n d e d me of it. I c a n ' t s a y t h a t 12 - I T 1'could h a v e t o l d y o u t h a t he w r o t e it or w h e t h e r 1 3 Dr. W i t t e n w r o t e it or w h e t h e r Dr. J a n d o r f . F r o m 14 the c o n v e r s a t i o n of the two men, I d o n ' t k n o w w h o 1 5 ' h a d w r itten the thing. I can't- tell you who wrote 16 :I t . 17 1 i' Q. I b e l i e v e you did just- t e s t i f y -- 18 i ; SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: That's 19 ^ a r g u m e n t a t i v e , c o u n s e l . R e p h r a s e the q u e s t i o n . 20 Q. Did y o u tell me at o u r m e e t i n g in M a r c h 21 that Dr. H o f f m a n had p r e p a r e d a trip r e p o r t a f t e r a 22 visit to G e r m a n y ? 23 A. I s a id -- 14220 24 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : I think, the 2 5 w i t n e s s a n s w e r e d that as m u c h as he can b a s e d upon I 11i/ - * r * r-\ /-s -----* - _ j Sim 86 1 h i s r e c o l l e c t i o n . I t h i n k t h e r e is e n o u g h in the x>L r e c o r d a t t h i s s t a g e . O f f t h e r e c o r d . 3 (Discussion held off the record) 4 SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: Let's go on 5 the record and ask the question. 6 MS. B E R N O T T : The tri p r e p o r t in its 7 e n t i r e t y c o n s i s t s of m o r e t h a n o n e p a g e . It is 8 c l a s s i f i e d and it r e m a i n s c l a s s i f i e d as secret. The 9 m a t e r i a l that r e l at e s to d i o x i n I have been a d v i s e d 1 0 has b e e n e x t r a c t e d in its e n t i r e t y , c o n t i g u o u s 1 1 e n t i r e t y f r o m the r e p o r t , and it has b e e n r e l e a s e d . 1 2 It has b e e n a p p r o v e d for d e c l a s s i f i c a t i o n and my 1 3 p r o d u c t i o n of it to the p a r t i e s -- I p r o m p t l y 14 p r o d u c e d it to the p a r t i e s and you are h o l d i n g a 1 5 c o p y of it. As I u n d e r s t a n d it, and the p a r t i e s 16 h a v e a s k e d a n u m b e r of q u e s t i o n s r e g a r d i n g t h i s 17 d o c u m e n t :w h i c h I ;h o p e t o h a v e a n s w e r s to v e r y s o o n -- IS t his is a r e t y p e d c o n t i g u o u s e x c e r p t , r e t y p e d 19 b e c a u s e the o r i g i n a l w a s d i f f i c u l t to r e a d . T h e 20 title has been inserted for guidance. The three 21 d o t s d a t a d e l e t i o n w h i c h a p p e a r s to be a s o u r c e of 22 i n f o r m a t i o n w h i c h r e m a i n s c l a s s i f i e d , and c a n n o t be 23 a d d r e s s e d by t h e w i t n e s s if he k n o w s . 24 The n ote s in the l o we r r igh t h a n d c o r n e r 25 are: m i n e . w n n n n n rl cn in o lli rsr+if* ^ -- --1 Sim' 87 1! SPECIAL MASTER SCHREI3ZR: Classification oA. !is a S t a t e S e c r e t c l a s s i f i c a t i o n ? 3 i MS. B E R N O T T : A t p r e s e n t t h i s is n o t 4 c l a s s i f i e d . It is u n c l a s s i f i e d - 5 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : W h a t is the 6 'basis for with h o l d i n g the remainder of the document? 7 j:' MS. B E R N O T T : It is a S t a t e S e c r e t 8 classification. 9 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : And who is the 1 0 p a r t y w ho has u n d e r t a k e n to a d vi se the C o u rt that 11 w h a t h a s b e e n e x t r a c t e d f r o m the d o c u m e n t , w h i c h is 1 2 : a S t at e S e c r e t d o c u m e n t , is all the i n f o r m a t i o n 13 . dealing with dioxin? 14 MS. BERiNOTT: The q u e s t i o n has been posed 15 to m e w h e t h e r I h a v e f i r s t h a n d k n o w l e d g e of t h a t o r iI i . 16 second hand knowledge- I have advised the parties j :* 1 7 ' ;that I am r e l y i n g on i n f o r m a t i o n g i v e n m e b y t h e ..I I' 18 A r m y . If for e v i d e n t i a r y p u r p o s e s s o m e t h i n g m o r e 1 9 t h a n t h a t i s r e q u i r e d ', I ' m s u r e it c a n b e a r r a n g e d . 20 : B u t m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is t h a t the p e o p l e w h o h a v e 21 d one this w o r k are the d e c l a s s i f i c a t i o n o f f i c i a l s of 22 the D e p a r t m e n t of the A r my at the P e nt a g o n . 2 3 | ;i j MR. MATTHEWS: Can we have the names of 24 the p e o p l e who m a d e the r e p r e s e n t a t i o n s to M i s s 25 : B e r n o t t ? 1 4 3 <0 2 ____ x :x: _ Sim 38 1 SP E C I A L MAS T E R SCHREIBER: No. 1 think, 2 c o u n s e l , b e f o r e we g e t to that, w h a t we need, at 3 l ea st at this stage, b e f o r e we get to the o t h e r 4 issue, is an a f f i d a v i t from the p a r t y w h o m a d e the 5 .extraction or who performed the extraction who can 6 v e r i f y t h a t t h i s is so; th a t the one p a g e c o n t a i n s 7 all the i n f o r m a t i o n d e a l i n g w i t h d i o x i n , and t h a t it 8 is a n a t i o n a l s e c u r i t y S t a t e S e c r e t d o c u m e n t . T h e n 9 we are s l o w l y or fast,d e p e n d i n g upon- ho w you look 1 0 at; i t , a p p r o a c h i n g t h e a r e a o n h o w w e a r e g o i n g t o 11 d e a l w i t h all t h e s e i s s u e s . 1 2 MR.RIVKIN: Sir, may I have a word? I 1 3 will come around. We are being blocked by 14 v e g e t a t i o n . 15 ;; MR. K R O H L E Y : Thanks, Lenny. 16 | i! . SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: I was doing 17 that i n t e n t i o n a l l y . All right, Mr. R i v k i n . 1 8 i '{ | M R . R I V K I N : I take e x c e p t i o n to the 19 a f f i d a v i t c o m i n g from s o m e b o d y in the A r m y or 20 somebody on the Declassification Board and 21 r e s p e c t f u l l y s u b m i t it c o m e s f r o m t h e S e c r e t a r y o f 22 t h e A r m y o r m a y b e h i s i m m e d i a t e D e p u t y . 141^ 23 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : C o u n s e l , I 24 have not ruled on the issue of n a ti o n a l se cu ri t y. 25 W h a t I h a v e r u l e d u p o n is, f i r s t , I w a n t to t a k e up waga end spinelli certified shuiTnand renort^r; Sim 39 1 the i s s ue of w h e t h e r we h a v e an a c c u r a t e 2 representation under oath that the material before 3 us^ n o w is t h e s o l e m a t e r i a l d e a l i n g w i t h d i o x i n . I 4 have not fo r g o t t e n about the issue of nationa l 5 security. 6 i ;' MR.RIVKIN: The only reason I bring.that 7 u p | b y w a y of t h a t , is that that m i g h t be an i! a appropriate thing, r e s p e c t f u l l y , later, if we k n o w 9 .in; f a c t t h a t t h e r e i s a p r i v i l e g e b e i n g c l a i m e d . A s 1 0 of; t h i s d a t e , w e ; d o n ' t k n o w t h a t a p r i v i l e g e is 11 b e i n g c l a i m e d . 12 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : C o u n s e l , I 1 3 t h i n k w e h a v e to, t a k e u p t h e q u e s t i o n o n h o w w e a r e 14 g o i n g to d e a l w i t h d o z e n s , if not h u n d r e d s or 1 5 thousands of documents which the Government may well 1 6 r ai se the i s s u e . E v e r y t h i n g p o i n t s to that fact. 17 T h a t d o e s n 't s e e m l i k e an e x t r a o r d i n a r y n u m b e r w h e n i ': 18 you are d e a l i n g w i t h m i l l i o n s of d o c u m e n t s , but it 1 9 is ;still a n u m b e r of m a j o r p r o p o r t i o n . ! : I ` 20 Unl e s s we want the D e f e n s e D e p a r t m e n t and 21 t h e of the Air F o r c e and the A r m y to do 22 n o t h i n g e l s e b u t s p e n d the n e x t s i x m o n t h s r e v i e w i n g 23 d o c u m e n t s , we r e a l l y h a v e to e x a m i n e the i s s u e a n d 24 co m e up w i t h w h a t m i g h t be an e q u i t a b l e s o l u t i o n . I 25 am not g o i n g to r u l e on it at this m o m e n t . I a s s u r e w n n n nnri tnin^lli Sim 90 1 you I am not walking away from the issue of State 2 Secret . 3 W h a t I an s u g g e s t i n g , h o w e v e r , in o r d e r 4 to m ov e fo rward on this one aspect, I w o u l d ask at 5 . this stage for an a f f i d a v i t of the p e r s o n who 6 e x t r a c t e d it, a d v i s i n g the C o u r t t ha t the r e m a i n d e r 7 of the d o c u m e n t that has b ee n said to be of n a t i o n a l 8 security nature,1 and this is a true and a c c u r a t e 9 extract of the issue on di o x i n within that report. 1 0 Then we go back and take up the entire report. 11 M R.RI V K I N : O k a y . 1 2 MR. SILBERMAN: In c o n n e c t i o n with that 13 a f f i d a v i t , c o u l d we ask t h a t the o r i g i n a l p a g e be 14 s u b m i t t e d ? The o n l y r e a s o n it h a s n ' t b e e n s u b m i t t e d , 15 as^ i u n d e r s t a n d it, is t h a t M i s s B e r n o t t s a y s it is 1 S d i f f i c u l t to read. If she w a n t s to r e d a c t the 1 7 s o u r c e w h i c h is n o w r e p r e s e n t e d b y t h e t h r e e dot s , I 18 s u p p o s e we w o u l d a c c e p t that. But we w o u l d like to 1 9 see the o r i g i n a l p a g e of wh ich this p u r p o r t s to be 20 o f 1t y p e w r i t t e n nature. 21 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : W h y c a n `t the 22 o r i g i n a l p a g e be: p h o t o s t a t e d w i t h t h e i n f o r m a t i o n 23 t h a t is s a i d to be of n a t i o n a l s e c u r i ty na t u r e 24 b l o c k e d o u t ? 25 MS. B E R N O T T : I k n o w of no r e a s o n , y o u r i Sim 91 1 H o n o r . It wa s s t r i c t l y for c o n v e n i e n c e . As I s a i d ;! i 2 this morning, that could be easily arranged. 3 S P E C I A L M A S T E R SCHREIBER: At-the- ca u t i o n 4 of counsel. 5 MR. RIVKIN: Then we still will have time 6 later to d i s c u s s the p r o c e d u r e ? 7 SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: Yes. That's 3 one of the major reasons for coming down. 9 MR.RIVKIN: The only other point I would 10 r a i se w i t h r e g a r d to the p a r t i c u l a r d o c u m e n t is that 1 1 it; a p p a r e n t l y w a s p r e s e n t e d at a c o n f e r e n c e o f 1 2 industrial h y g i e n i s t s and t o x icologists. I have to 1 3 'assume f r o m the s e r v i c e . O n e of our b u r d e n s is to 14 p r o v e n o t ic e . Ye t the n a m e s of t h o s e p e o p l e that 15 w e r e t h e r e a p p a r e n t l y h a s a l s o b e e n n o t e d as S t a t e 16 S e c r e t . I w o n d e r if that c o u l d be m e n t i o n e d in the 17 a f f i d a v i t , t h a t t h e y are i n t e n t i o n a l l y l eft out as 18 a l s o b e i n g c l a i m e d to be S t a t e S e c r e t , the n a m e s of 19 those^ p r e s e n t at the c o n f e r e n c e . 20 MR. S I L BE RMAN: Or give us the names. 21 ' MS. BERNOTT: I d on't kno w what you are 22 r e f e r r i n g to, M r . R i v k i n . C a n y o u h e l p m e ? 23 M R . R I V K I N : T h e p a p e r s t a r t s , "At a. 1433 24 r e c e n t c o n f e r e n c e of i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t s and 25 t o x i c o l o g i s t s , one of the spea kers pres e n t e d some \A t Im /* K S ! *-- k .-- v ! S im 92 1 i n f o r m a t i o n r e g a r d i n g the t o x i c i t y of a 2 compound of the formula. 3 MS. B E R N O T T : An d you are i n t e r e s t e d to 4 know whether the identity of those people has begin 5 deleted. 6 M R . R I V K I N : I t h i n k the f o r m u l a is T C D D . 7 M a y b e they just o v e r l o o k e d names. If not, could 8 t h e y m e n t i o n in the a f f i d a v i t t h a t t h a t a l s o is 9 being claimed? 10 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : If t h er e w e r e 1 1 any names, then names should be pr e s e n t e d or the 12 names should fall w i t h i n a p r i v i l e g e . 13 MR.: R I V K I N : Protected area. Thank 14 y o u , s i r . 15 i MR. GORDON: For your i n f o r mation , your 16 H o n o r , d e f e n d a n t s h a v e r e q u e s t e d the c o v e r p a g e from, 1 7 the memo that would dis c l o s e who received copies of 18 it. In o t h e r w o r ds , the d i s t r i b u t i o n list. 19 i SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: All right. 20 ! MR. GO RDON: P l ea s e mark as Sim E x h i b i t 2 21 a on e p a g e e x c e r p t p r o d u c e d by the G o v e r n m e n t t h i s 22 m o r n i n g w h i c h p u r p o r t s to b e a r e - t y p e o f a s e c t i o n 23 o f :th e H o f f m a n t r i p r e p o r t . a q r-H A.ts 3i1--'' 24 ( E x h i b i t S i m -2, m a r k e d for i d e n t i f i c a t i o n 25 j-ii Q . . r Dx,. <: S i m ,;h a v e you:; r e v i e w e d . S i m E x h i b i t 2? w n n n n n H cninolli Sim' 93 1 A . Yes. 2 Q. H a v e y o u e v e r s e e n the i n f o r m a t i o n set 3 forth on that exhibit before? 4 A.! I d o n ' t -- I ' m n o t s u r e . T h e o n l y t h i n g t h a t 5 w o u l d m a k e me t h i n k that I m i g h t h a v e is that 6 a n y t h i n g t h a t w a s w r i t t e n in s u c h a m a n n e r w a s not 7 v e r y a c c u r a t e , and m o s t l y h e a r s a y e v i d e n c e , as far 8 as this was c o n c e r n e d . 9 MR. GO R D O N: I will move to strike the 1 0 a n s w e r to the e x t e n t it is not r e s p o n s i v e . 1 1 M R . R I V K I N : He may have a law degree, Mr. 12 Gordon. 1 3 : I !j- SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: Please. 14 i U MS. BERNOTT: I would like to interpose a 1 5 c o m m e n t on the r e c o r d . I d o n ' t o b j e c t to your 1 6 ' q u e s t i o n s relating to the d o c u m e n t t h a t 's just b een 17 i d e n 11 f i e d as E x h i b i t 2. H o w e v e r , I c a u t i o n t h e 18 w i t n e s s that he is d i r e c t e d not to a n s w e r your i ': 19 q u e s t i o n s in so far as t h e y m a y i n c l u d e the 20 ^ i d e n t i f i c a t i o n of the deleted apparent source of 21 i n f o r m a t i o n from, t h e b e g i n n i n g o f p a r a g r a p h t h r e e . 22 :j Thank you . 23 |!| Q. ;j !; i-; Dr. Sim, is it y o u r t e s t i m o n y tha t y o u 24 ma y have seen this i n f o r m a t i o n b e f o r e ? 1 4 ^^ iiN i 25 j;l SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: He already w a a a a n d sninelli rortifioH chnrfhnnrl Sim 94 1 said that, counsel. 2 A . I sa id t h a t . 3 Q. W h a t is the b a s i s for y o u r n ? l i e f tha t 4 you may have seen this information before? 5 A. T h e o n l y b a s i s t h a t I h a v e is t h a t to r e a d the 6 t h i n g s as it is,' it w o u l d s t i c k o u t in a n y o n e ' s m i n d 7 P a s s i n g it on in a scarf, s o m e b o d y c h e w i n g a rope, a 8 cow, binding a wheat sheaf sounds far fetched. That 9 w o u l d be the t h i n g that s t r i k e s in my m i n d that I 10 m i g h t h a v e seen the t h i n g b e f o r e . It is not m e d i c a l 11 r e p o r t i n g as w e u n d e r s t a n d it. 1 2 Q. Dr. Sim, do y o u r e c a l l a n y d i s c u s s i o n at 13 E d g e w o o d c o n c e r n i n g a s c a r f that had b e e n used by a 1 4 w o r k e r and p a s s e d on to a r e l a t i v e a f t e r his d e a t h ? 1 5 A . No . 16 i-: Q. Do you have any rec o l l e c t i o n of 17 ' ' d i s c u s s i o n s c o n c e r n i n g wha t was o f t e n r e f e r r e d to as 18 the scarf i n c i d e n t ? ! 19 A . No . \ 20 Q. R e f e r r i n g y o u to the t i t l e at the top of 21 t h i s p a g e , " r e p o r t o n t r i p to E u r o p e . " 22 A . Y e s . 23 Q. In c o n n e c t i o n w i t h Dr. Ho f f m a n 's d u t i e s 24 at E d g e w o o d , did Dr. H o f f m a n m a k e v i s i t s to G e r m a n y 25 pe w aga and spinelli certified shorthand reoorters Sim 95 1 A. A n d o t h e r p l a c e s , I t h i n k . 2 Q. He d i d v i s i t G e r m a n y p e r i o d i c a l ] * / ? 3 A.; I d o n ' t k n o w h o w m a n y t i m e s he v i s i t e d G e r m a n y . ii 4 You must rememb er , Dr. H o f f m a n was a P r o f e s s o r of 5 C h e m istry at Wurzburg.- 6 ; :| Q. W h e n i w a s he a P r o f e s s o r at U n i v e r s i t y of 7 i Wurzburg? a Av Until 1946 9 ;i Q . What did h e do after 1946? 10 A . He c a me to th e U n i t e d S t a t e s . 11 Q . Wh e n did Dr . H o f f m a n come to E d g e w o o d ? 12 A. I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r . I a m n o t s u r e b e c a u s e I 1 3 ,was n ' t t h e r e . 14 :i Q . W h a t ;w a s t h e p u r p o s e o f D r . H o f f m a n 's 15 visits to Germany and elsewhere? 16 A.! I d o n ' t k n o w . 17 MR. L E V I N E : O b j e c t i o n . 18 i ! SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: Objection 19 sustained. 20 Q Do y o u h a v e a s p e c i f i c r e c o l l e c t i o n of 21 ;any v i s i t t o G e r m a n y b y Dr. H o f f m a n ? 22 ; m S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : C ome on, 23 c o u n s e l . Y o u c o v e r e d it p r e t t y w e l l . He a l r e a d y 24 a d m i t t e d th a t Dr. H o f f m a n was in G e r m a n y . 25 MR. G O R D O N : W i t h all d u e r e s p e c t , we are waaa and soinelli CPrtifi(Pd shn rt hnn d rpnnrtorc Sim 96 1 going back over twenty years. 2 SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: I know that. 3 MR. G O RD ON : I am d o i n g my best to 4 refresh his recollection. 5 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : fr.less the 6 w i t n e s s was in s u p e r v i s o r y c o n t r o l of Dr. H o f f m a n , 7 e v e r y t h i n g he k n o w s is b a s i c a l l y h e a r s a y . 8 Ij ;j 9 THE WITNESS: | Which I was SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: not in. I assume not. 10 Th at ' s why I m e n t i o n e d it. 11 MR. MATTHEWS: It is still p r o b a t i v e at 12 a d e p o s i t i o n . It is d i s c o v e r y . 1 3 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : T h e r e is a 14 l i m i t as to h o w much- i n a d m i s s i b l e e v i d e n c e is 1 5 a d m i s s i b l e . I t h i n k the p o i n t is w e l l m a d e t h a t the 1 6 wi t nes s, to the best of his r e c o l l e c t i o n , b e l i e v e s 1 7 that Dr. H o f f m a n had b e e n in G e r m a n y for a n u m b e r -- 18 h a d m a d e a n u m b e r of v i s i t s to G e r m a n y . He b a s e s 19 h i s b e l i e f on the f a c t t h a t Dr. H o f f m a n c a m e f r o m 20 G e r m a n y , was a p r o f e s s o r in G e r m a n y , and as a 21 c h e m i s t , m o r e than l i k ely, w o u l d be g o i n g to 22 m e e t i n g s in G e r m a n y a f t e r the war. W e r e t h e r e a 23 s e r i e s of m e e t i n g s in G e r m a n y a f t e r the w a r in w h i c h 24 c h e m i s t s w o u l d n o r m a l l y go to. 43 25 T H E W I T N E S S : U s u a l l y o n c e a y e a r , at waga and soineili ch, Iflhnnd rr Sim 97 1 least . 2 Q. Dr. Sim, r e f e r r i n g you to the r e f e r e n c e s 3 n e a r t h e b o t t o m o f t h e page', t h e i e is a r e f e r e n c e to 4 K i n n i g and Schu lz, N a t u r w i s s e n s on at Page 337. 5 Have you ever seen a r e f e r e n c e to w o r k by 6 K i m m i g and S c h u l z b e f o r e ? I b e l i e v e it is K i m m i g 7 wi th t w o M 's? 8 A. If I h a v e , I d o n ' t r e a l l y r e m e m b e r it. 9i i o !. MS. BERNOTT: Mark the record for me. Q Do y o u r e c a l l t e l l i n g me at a m e e t i n g in 11 M a r c h t h a t y o u w e r e f a m i l i a r w i t h the w o r k of K i m m i g 12 Iand S c h u 1 z a n d b e l i e v e y o u w e r e f i r s t t o l d a b o u t it 1 3 in the e a r l y 1 9 6 0 s by e i t h e r Dr. S i m m o n s or Dr. 14 H o f f m a n ? 15 l i :i : ;! j 16 ! 1 * MR. L E V I N E : O b j e c t e d to S P E C I A L 'M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : He is t r y i n g 17 :k t o r e f r e s h t h e w i t n e s s ' r e c o l l e c t i o n . 18 A. I r e m e m b e r | t a l k i n g to you a b o u t t h a t b u t I am 19 s t i l l not sur e at all t h a t I w a s a w a r e of it. I 20 c e r t a i n l y was not a w a r e of the i l aturwissensch 21 b e c a u s e I d o n ' t r e c a l l G e r m a n y v e r y w e l l , and it is 22 n o t a v e r y a c c u r a t e m a g a z i n e for s c i e n t i f i c r e a s o n s . 23 Q . Dr. Sim, w h e n we d i s c u s s e d the w o r k b y 24 K i m m i g and S c h u l z in M a r c h , was that the fir s t t i m e 25 y o u h a d e v e r h e a r d of w o r k b y K i m m i g and S c h u l z ? w o o n n n ri sninelli f'PirtifiorH chnrthnnH rc Sim 98 1 A . I p r o b a b l y h e a r d of it b e f o r e but I p r o b a b l y 2 w a s n ' t a ware of it. 3 Q. Do you r e c a l l w h e n you m a y h a v e h e a r d of 4 it bef o r e ? 5 A.: No. 6 Q. L e t m e r e f e r y o u t o t h e a r t i c l e in f r o n t 7 of the Kimmig and Schulz article by Sandermann and 8 S t o c k m a n n and Carsten. Do you have any recollectioi 9 of having reviewed or heard of that article before? 10 A . No . 11 :, MR. GO RDON: P l e a s e m a r k as J a n d o r f -- 1 2 Sim Exhibit 3 -- Jandorf exhibit? I'm sorry. 13 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : Y o u go r i g h t 14 a he ad and y ou r c o l l e a g u e s will c o r r e c t you. 1 5 MR. GORDON: Entitled "Edgewood Arse nal 16 t e c h n i c a l r ep ort, EA T R 4210", e n t i t l e d "The S e a r c h 1 7 For Toxic Chemical Agents, by Benjamin Witten", 18 d a t e d N o v e m b e r 1969. 19 MR. L E V I N E : D i d n ' t this go in y e s t e r d a y ? 20 MS. BERNOTT: Do you recall what nu mb er 21 i t. w a s ? 22 ; SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: I assume I 23 w ill be g i v e n the d o c u m e n t and a s k e d some q u e s t i o n s . 24 At a f u t u r e time we w i l l sit d o w n and r e n u m b e r all 25 the e x h i b i t s , p r o b a b l y . ^4333 w aga and spinelli certified shorthand reDorters O 1m : 99 1 MR . L E V I N E : It w a s J a n d o r f 3. 2 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : T h e r e is a n e w 3 theory around that you can start a case off and have 4 exhibits running and never trip yourself. I never 5 saw it work. L e t ' s not spend that m uch time on it. 6 ( E x h i b i t S i m -3, m a r k e d for i d e n t i f i c a t i o n 7 SPECIAL MASTER S C H R E I B E R : The witness 8 s h o u l d 'b e g i v e n a f e w m i n u t e s t o r e v i e w t h e d o c u m e n t 9 Are you g o i n g to ask h i m q u e s t i o n s on it? 10 1 MR. GORDON: Yes, and I was go ing to give 11 h i m s e v e r a l m i n u t e s . T o h e l p y o u l e t m e r e f e r y o u 1 2 s p e c i f i c a l l y to p a g es 205 and 308 of those e x c e r p t s , 1 3 the last two pages. 14 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : It is a 1 5 document which has a number of extracted pages 1 6 ;T h e y d o n ' t r u n c o n s e c u t i v e l y , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? 1 7 MR. GORDON: That's correct. 18 ! : SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: What happened 19 ito p a g e s 2 0 6 a n d 2 0 7 ? 20 MR. G O R D O N : It w a s s t i l l c l a s s i f i e d , is 21 ith a t c o r r e c t . 22 MS. B E R N 0 T T : W h a t you' h a v e h e r e a r e o n l y 23 :th e p a g e s f r o m t h e W i t t e n r e p o r t t h a t r e l a t e to t h e 24 s u b j e c t m a t t e r o f the s u b p o e n a . I t h i n k it m a y be 25 t r u e t h a t the r e m a i n d e r is a l s o c l a s s i f i e d . I t h i n k waaa and snin^lli r'OrlifioH c h n d h n n H Sim 100 1 that's correct. Now I recollect that. 2 Q. L e t me k n o w w h e n y o u h a v e f i n i s h e d 3 rev-iewing it, Dr. Sim. 4 S P E C I A L MA S T E R SCHREIBER: Mr. Gordon, 5 proceed. 6 Q. Dr. Sim, h a v e y o u p r e v i o u s l y seen the 7 b o o k by Dr. W i t t e n e n t i t l e d "The S e a r c h for T o x i c 8 C h e mical Agents", or p o r t i o n s of it? 9 A. T h i s is p a r t of a b o o k ? 1 0 Q. T h a t is m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g , p a r t of a b o o k 11 b y Dr. W i t t e n e n t i t l e d " S e a r c h for C h e m i c a l 12 A g e n t s . " 1 3 A. I h a v e s e e n p a r t of it. 14 Q. Do y o u k n o w w h i c h p a r t s of the b o o k y o u 1 5 s ai w ? 1 6 A . I; N o . I m a y e.ven h a v e a c o p y of it s o m e p l a c e . 1 7 It; may. be in .the f i l e s . 13 Q. D o you; k n o w w h e n y o u f i r s t s a w a c o p y o f 19 that b o o k ? ! :I 20 A ', i I c o u l d n ' t t e l l y o u . 21 Q. D i r e c t i n g y o u r a t t e n t i o n to p a g e 20 5 . Do 22 you. r e c a l l h a v i n g s e e n t h a t d e s c r i p t i o n of 23 t e t r a c h l o r o d i b e n z o d i o x a n e ? 24 A. ; W h i c h p a g e ? 2 5 Q. P a g e 2 0 5 . 14.335 w aga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters aim 101 1A I p r o b a b l y have seen it before, yes 2 Q. Do y o u h a v e a n y s p e c i f i c -- 3 A'.- I t l o o k s e x a c t l y l i k e t h i s o n e . 4 SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: 5 what ? - G| MS . B E R N O T T : S i m E x h i b i t 2. 7 A .: E x a c t l y l i k e t h i s one. In fact, it has S p r o b a b l y b e e n t ake n out of it. 9 Q . Thank' you . i- 10 ; Do you recall ever having seen page 205 11 be f o r e ? 12 'A. I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r . 13 Q. R e f e r r i n g y o u to p a g e 308 of S i m E x h i b i t 1 4 '3/ a n d t h e r e f e r e n c e s 4 6 0 t h r o u g h 4 7 4 . D o y o u 15 r e c a l l h a v i n g r e v i e w e d or h e a r d a b o u t a n y of the :i : IG r e f e r e n c e s l i s t e d t h e r e ? 17 A. , W e l l , I see K i m m i g and S c h u l z on 18 N a l t u r w i s s e n s c h in t h e r e . M o s t of t h e s e w e r e 19 w r i t t e n in G e r m a n , as far as I kno w . P e o p l e that 20 w o u l d h a v e r e a d t h e s e d i r e c t l y , if t h e y read them, 21 w e r e D r . W i t t e n , Dr. J a n d o r f o r Dr. H o f f m a n . S i n c e 22 two of them, at l e ast, w e r e o r i g i n a l l y G e r m a n . 23 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : W h i c h of t h e 24 two o t h e r than H o f f m a n ? 25 THE W I T N E S S : J a n d o r f and H o f f m a n . op Sim 102 1 Q. D i d Dr. W i t t e n r e a d G e r m a n , a l s o ? 2 A . He read German, yes. 3 Q. I b e l i e v e y o u t e s t i f i e d e a r l i e r t h a t y o u 4 m a y h a v e h e a r d a b o u t d i o x i n from Dr. J a n d o r f . 5 A . I may have. 6 Q. D i d y o u h a v e d i s c u s s i o n s w i t h Dr. J a n d o r f 7 during the 1 9 6 0 s from time to time? 3 A. Yes, o f t e n . | :i - ; 9 Q. W h a t w a s the s u b j e c t of t h o s e d i s c u s s i o n s ? 1 O A. A l w a y s on a g e n t s or p r o b l e m s that we had. 11 Q. W e r e t h o s e i n f o r m a l d i s c u s s i o n s or d i d 1 2 you meet with him at various formal meetings? 1 3 ;A. F o r m a l a n d i n f o r m a l . 14 | iI Q. 'Where w o u l d the f o r m a l m e e t i n g s t a k e 1 5 IP 1 a c e ? 1 6 A.' E i t h e r in m y o f f i c e o r h i s o f f i c e o r in t h e 17 conference room with staff. 18 Q. W h o f r o m the s t a f f w e r e p r e s e n t ? 1 9 `A. O u r a s s o c i a t e d s t a f f m o s t l y . 20 Q. Vih o w a s a m o n g y o u r a s s o c i a t e d s t a f f t h a t 21 m i g h t h a v e b e e n in a t t e n d a n c e at t h e s e m e e t i n g s ? 22 A . K i m u r a , M c N a m a r a , M c C l u r e , if he h a p p e n e d to be 23 there at t h a t time. 24 Q. W h o ? oI 25 McClure, Owens might have been there, 3 i w a n n n n d snin^lli /"'Orfif/H c-hz-Nf+h Sim 103 1 Christensen, Owens, a number of his chem ists. I 2 couldn't tell you what their names are. 3 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l the n a m e s of a n y o n e w h o is 4 a m o n g W i t t e n ' s s t a f f w h o m i g h t h a v e b e e n p r e s e n t at 5 one of these m e e tings? 6 A. P r o b a b l y T o m S i m m o n s . T h a t w o u l d be the m o s t 7 likely. 8 Q. A n y o n e e l s e ? 9 A. S a m S a s s m i g h t h a v e b e e n t h e r e . 1 0 Q. W h o w a s J o s e p h W i l e s ? 1 1 A. J o s e p h W i l e s w a s a t o x i c o l o g i s t w h o w o r k e d for 12 McNamara. 13 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l a t t e n d i n g an o r a l l e c t u r e 14 or p r e s e n t a t i o n g i v e n by Dr. H o f f m a n c o n c e r n i n g 15 d i o x i n ? 16 A. I d o n ' t , r e a l l y . 17 Q. U p o n r e t u r n i n g f r o m h i s v a r i o u s v i s i t s 18 a b r o a d , d i d Dr. H o f f m a n d e l i v e r p r e s e n t a t i o n s 1 9 c oncerning the results of his trips? 20 A. I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r . I w o u l d s a y he p r o b a b l y d i d 2 1 once or twice, but I d o n ' t remember specifically. 2 2 MR. L E V I N E : I mov e it be s t r i c k e n , y ou r 23 Hono r . 24 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : It has no 25 e v i d e n t i a r y v a l u e o n e w a y or the o t h e r , w n n n cir-iH crYin^all! ^ - j ---11----- < -- i- aim I 1 TH E W I T N E S S : No. 104 2 Q. H a v e y o u h e a r d of t h e t e r m c h l o r a c n e ? 3 A.1 I ' m a d o c t o r . O f c o u r s e I h a v e h e a r d o f it. 4 Q. B r i e f l y s t a t e y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g of 5 'chloracne . 6 A '.' I d o n ' t p r e t e n d to h a v e an u n d e r s t a n d i n g . I 7 think you ought to ask that q u e s t i o n of a a d e r m a t o l o g i s t or an 9 Q . W h at is c h l o r a c n e ? 10 My u n d e r s t a n d i n g is t h a t it is an i n f l a m m a t i o n 11 m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is t h a t it is an i n f l a m m a t i o n t h a t 12 m a y be d u e to a h a l o g e n a t e d c o m p o u n d on the s k i n of 1 3 an. i n d i v i d u a l . I t c o u l d h a p p e n in a n i m a l s . 14 But I t hi nk you should ask an a l l e r g i s t 1 5 or, a d e r m a t o l o g i s t . 16 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : Dr. Sim, I 17 think you just answer the q u e s t i o n to the best of 18 y o u r a b i l i t y . D,on 1 t t r y t o g u e s s . W e w i l l g e t y o u 19 o u t of h e r e as q u i c k l y as p o s s i b l e . 20 T H E W I T N E S S : Goo d . 2 1 Q. Dr. Sim, w h e n d i d y o u f i r s t h e a r of 22 c h l o r a c n e ? 23 h. I h a v e n o i d e a . 24 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l w h e t h e r y o u e v e r h e a r d of 25 c h l o r a c n e in c o n n e c t i o n w i t h d i o x i n ? waaa and spinelli certified shorthand reDorters Sim 105 1 A . No. 2 i Q. Are you aware of any health effects that 3 have been linked with dioxin? 4 A . Not from first hand experience. 5 '! Q. Have you heard from any source whatever 6 that there are certain health effects linked with 7 dioxin? 8 A.: P u r p o r t e d to b e as a r e s u l t o f t h e a c c i d e n t in 9 the p l a n t in Italy, p u r p o r t e d to be. That's 1 0 . p u r p o r t e d to be. 11 Q. Is t h a t the S e r v e s c o i n c i d e n t t h a t y o u 1 2 are r e f e r r i n g to? 13 A . Yes. 14 Q. P r i o r to the S e r v e s c o i n c i d e n t w e r e y o u 15 aware of any purported health effects arising from 16 dioxin? 17 : A . '; N o t u n l e s s :I h a d r e a d t h i s a n d s i g n e d it. 1 8 . ,i | MR. KROHLEY: Could the record indicate ;I ! j 19 w h a t the w i t n e s s was r e f e r r i n g to? 20 ! M S . B.ERN OTT: S i m n u m b e r 2. 21 i !; : MR . KROHLEY : Thank you . 22 ! S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : If you had 23 r e a d it, w o u l d you h a v e s i g n e d it? 24 ; : T H E W I T N E S S : U s u a l l y some- o f t h e s e 14340 25 d o c u m e n t s of t h a t n a t u r e we w o u l d sig n . As d i v i s i o n w a n n n n d snin^lli rortifioH eH/'-vr+H/'-ir-vH rf* Sim 106 1 chiefs we would sign them. 2 SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: Where would 3 the signature be? 4 THE WITNESS: Down at the bottom. The re 5 would be a cover sheet or it w ould be on this sheet. 6 |I j u s t h a p p e n to m a k e a h a b i t m o s t o f t h e t i m e o f 7 signing anything or initialing anything that I had 8 read. This w a s n ' t always true. S o m e t i m e s it was 9 required. 1 0 Q. Dr. Sim, are y o u f a m i l i a r w i t h the t e r m s 1 1 2 , 4 - D and 2 , 4 , 5 -T? 12 A . Yes. 13 Q. W h a t do y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h o s e t e r m s to 14 r ef er to? 15 A. M a t e r i a l s t h a t a r e u s e d as h e r b i c i d e s . 16 Q. A t a n y t i m e w e r e y o u a w a r e t h a t d i o x i n 17 - m a y h a v e b e e n p r e s e n t in 2,4,'5-T in small q u a n t i t i e s ? 18 i i MR. TAYLOR: Objection, Leading. 19 | MR. L E V I N E : He a n s w e r e d it. 20 A.; M y a n s w e r is no, I w a s n o t . 21 Q. D o y o u r e c a l l at a n y t i m e b e i n g a w a r e 2 2 that d i o x i n m i g h t h a v e b e e n p r e s e n t in 23 t r i c h 1 o r o p h e n o 1? 24 MR. TAYLOR: Same o b j e c t i o n . 2 5 A . No . w n n n n n ri sn in o lli fifi -4 J Sim' 107 1 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I 3 E R : C o u n s e l , is 2 this your witness, by the way? Are you bound by 3 these answers? 4 MR. GORDON: I am doing my best, your 5 Honor. 6 SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: I am not being 7 c r i t i c a l . I am just asking a question. 8 ,: Q Dr. Sim, do you recall t e l l i n g me at our 9 m e e t i n g in M a r c h t h a t in the e a r l y 1 9 6 0 s E d g e w o o d 10 p e r s o n n e l w e r e w e l l a w a r e of the p r e s e n c e of d i o x i n 11 in 2 , 4 , 5 - T i n m i n u t e q u a n t i t i e s ? 1 2 A. No. 13 MR. L E V I N E : N o t e m y o b j e c t i o n . 14 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : O b j e c t i o n is 1 5 nO;ted. All t h e s e i s s u e s a r e h e l d in a b e y a n c e . Let 16 h i m a s k the q u e s t i o n s . 17 ! :; Q. Do y o u r e c a l l t e l l i n g me t h a t the 18 p e r s o n n e l at E d g e w o o d w e r e not c o n c e r n e d w i t h t h i s 19 c o n t a m i n a t i o n b e c a u s e the d i o x i n was p r e s e n t in s u c h 20 s m a ll q u a n t i t i e s ? 21 MR. L E V I N E : N o t e m y o b j e c t i o n , s i r . 22 A . No . 23 Q Y o u d o n 1t r e c a l l s t a t i n g t h a t at a l l ? 24 A. I m a y h a v e s t a t e d it, b u t y o u are s a y i n g it in 25 the w r o n g way. ' 4434? -- II? Sim ; 108 1 Q. H o w w o u l d you s t a t e it so t hat it w o u l d 2 beiaccurate? 3 A . L e t m e m a k e it p e r f e c t l y c l e a r . A, w e w e r e n o t d a w a r e t h a t d i o x i n w a s in a n y t h i n g . T h a t w a s n u m b e r 5 one from a medical standpoint-. 6 Two -- 7 SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: When you say a you w e r e not a w a r e it was in a n y t h i n g , w ha t do you 9 mean by anything? 10 T H E W I T N E S S : In a n y of the h e r b i c i d e s or 11 in a n y t h i n g e l s e . We w e r e not a w a r e t h a t it w a s as 12 a c o n t a m i n a n t or w h a t e v e r it w a s ; t h a t it was in 1 3 t h e s e c o m p o u n d s . It was o n l y a f t e r the fact t h a t we 14 l e a r n e d that t h e r e was d i o x i n as c o n t a m i n a n t s . 1 5 q . When did that after the fact -- 16 A . A f t e r 197 0 . 1 7 ij Q. Do you recall t e l l i n g me that at the time 18 E d g e w o o d p e r s o n n e l were aw are of 2 , 4 , 5-T you were 19 n o t c o n c e r n e d b e c a u s e t h a t w a s a p r o b l e m for F o r t 20 D e t r i c k ? 21 MR. L E V I N E : N o t e m y o b j e c t i o n . /! 22 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : I w o u l d 23 s u g g e s t to c o u n s e l t h a t if he w a n t s the q u e s t i o n a n d 24 the a n s w e r to be a d m i s s i b l e , it has to be r e p h r a s e d 25 in a d i f f e r e n t w a y and not put y o u r c r e d i b i l i t y or waaa and soinelli nortifioH ch nrthnnH f l N Sim 109 1 the w i t n e s s ' c r e d i b i l i t y at odds, so to speak, or at 2 each other's throat- The q u e s t i o n co u 1d be rephrased., do y o u r e c a l l h a v i n g s a i d in M a r c h , and ' 4 w i t h o u t p u t t i n g y o u r s e l f i n t o it, Mr- G o r d o n , 5 'otherwise the q u e s t i o n s wil l be o b j e c t i o n a b l e as a 6 matter of course. 7 MR. GORDON: T h a n k for you your advice. 3 Q. Dr. Sim, do y o u r e c a l l s t a t i n g in M a r c h 9 that -- 10 1 SPECIAL MASTER SCIIREIBER: March of what 11 y e a r ? 12 MR. GORDON: March of this year. 1 3 ' : Q. -- that E d g e w o o d p e r s o n n e l w e r e av/are, 14 in the e a r l y 1 9 6 0 s of the p r e s e n c e of d i o x i n in 1 5 2,4,5 -T ? 1G A.' Y o u k n o w , t h i s is g e t t i n g v e r y d i s t u r b i n g 17 because you. a r e . n o t p h r a s i n g y o u r q u e s t i o n s 18 c o r r e c t l y t o ' me. 19 1 S P E C I A L M A S T E R SC HREIBER: Doc t o r , if you 20 'do n o t -- 21 THE WITNESS: I would say I do not know 22 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : Y o u can say 23 "no" and g i v e an e x p l a n a t i o n . If y o u c h o o s e to g i v e 24 an e x p l a n a t i o n , you may or may not. 25 Q. H o w w o u l d y o u r e p h r a s e the q u e s t i o n so it Sim 110 1 doesn't bother you? 2 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E K : No. I 'm s u r e 3 the d o c t o r is v e r y h a p p y b e i n g a d o c t o r . We d o n ' t 4 w an t to mak e him a lawyer. 5 MS. B E R N O T T : T h e r e is no q u e s t i o n . 6 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : No q u e s t i o n at 7 thi s moment . '8 Q. D r . S i m , w h a t d o y o u r e c a l l s t a t i n g a b o u t 9 k n o w l e d g e of d i o x i n in 2,4,5 - T in M a r c h of this y e a r ? 1 O MR. LEVINE: May I have that read back. 11 I apologi ze . 1 2 SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: The reporter 1 3 w i l l r e a d it b a c k . T h e q u e s t i o n is p r o p e r l y p h r a s e d 14 for an a n s w e r . 15 (read by the r e p o r t e r ) 16 A . ; The o n l y t h i n g I r e m e m b e r is that you a s k e d me 1 7 h a v e I e v e r heart! of d i o x i n . I said yes. W h e n y o u IS got to be s p e c i f i c a b o u t w h e n and wh e r e , then I go t 19 r a t h e r v a g u e b e c a u s e I d i d n ' t r e a l l y r e m e m b e r an 20 e x a c t d ate or w h o had told me a b o u t this. W h a t you 21 effectively said is that dioxin was impor tant 11 22 w a s n e v e r i m p o r t a n t in my m i n d b e c a u s e I wa s on the ,1434 L23 m e d i c a l s i d e . I d i d n ' t s e e o r h e a r o f i t . 24 If it wa s t a l k e d a b o u t in ch e m i c a l or 25 t a l k e d a b o u t in o t h e r t h i n g s , t h a t m a y h a v e b e e n waaa and soineUi c-H~r+*-- ------- S im 111 1 true. Cut I was not p r i v y tc the fact that this was 2 ^important, an i m p o r t a n t s u b j e c t as far as E d g e w o o d 3 was concerned. 4 Q. Dr. Sim, d u r i n g the 1 9 6 0 s w e r e you a w a r e 5 t h a t t h e r e w a s a h e r b i c i d e p r o g r a m j r. o p e r a t i o n in 6 ..;Fo r t D e t r i c k ? 7 ,A . I w a s . 8 ; , Q. Did y o u k n o w w h o was in c h a r g e of t h a t 9 prog ram? 10 A. Yes, and I s t a t e d it. 11 , ; Q. Who was that person? 1 2 'A. Dr. M i n a r i k . 1 3 ; Q. Dr. Sim, h a v e y o u e v e r h e a r d of a c o m p a n y 14 in G e r m a n y na med B o e h r i n g e r ? 15 A. Y e s . I k n o w n o t h i n g a b o u t t h e m , b u t I h a v e . i! 1 ;: ; 16 he a rd of them, p r o b a b l y m o s t l y r e e n f o r c e d b y you. 17 j. MR.RIVKIN: Do you have that, Mr. 18 :Reporter? C o u l d y o u read the a n s w e r . 19 j j S P E C I A L M A S T E R SC HREIBER: He said, 20 :"mostly r e f e r r e d to by you", m e a n i n g Mr. G o r d o n , 21 i ( ; Q. Do you r e c a l l s t a t i n g in May, Dr. Sim, 2 2 t h a t y o u h a d k n o w n s o m e t h i n g of B o e h r i n g e r in the 23 ,19.60s b u t b e c a u s e y o u d i d n o t s p e a k G e r m a n o n y o u r 24 own t r i p s to G e r m a n y , you did not v i s i t -- 25 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : C o u n s e l , IK __ i:x: _ -i .j .Xt_ S im 112 1 what's the r e l e v a n c e ? The witness has either a 2 failure of memory or doesn't know much about 3 Boehringer . 4 THE WITNESS: I don't. 5 MR. G O R D O N : I am t r yi ng to r e f r e s h his 6 r e c o l l e c t i o n . Boehr:! n g e r is a k e y c o m p a n y in the 7 i n v e s t i g a t i o n of d i o x i n . In fact, in the K i m m i g and 8 S c h u l z l i t e r a t u r e p r e p a r e d in i n v e s t i g a t i o n of a 9 c h l o r a c n e o u t b r e a k in the -- 10 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : In v i e w of the 11 f a c t t h a t t h e w i t n e s s k n o w s v e r y l i t t l e , y o u 1 2 c e r t a i n l y are e n t i t l e d to ask h i m if he k n o w s a b o u t 1 3 that s p e c i f i c i n v o l v e m e n t . But I d o n ' t t h i n k it 14 m a k e s any s e ns e to ask all the p r e l i m i n a r y q u e s t i o n s 1 5 u n l e s s the r e is a c o n t r a d i c t i o n b e t w e e n w h a t you say 16 h!e ;is g o i n g to t e s t i f y t o d a y a n d w h a t h e m a y h a v e 17 t e s t i f i e d or he m a y h a v e s p o k e n of in M a r c h . ! ' i 18 ; Q. Do you recall whet h e r Dr. H o f f m a n or Dr. 19 V7itten v i s i t e d B o e h r i n g e r in the 1 9 6 0 s ? i 20 -A'. | I ' m n o t s u r e , b u t t h e y m a y h a v e . 21 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l a n y m e n t i o n o f B o e h r i n g e r 22 by; | e i t h e r D r . W i t t e n o r D r . H o f f m a n at a n y t i m e ? 2 3 A'. S i n c e I n e v e r v i s i t e d t h e G e r m a n c h e m i c a l 24 c o m p a n i e s , t h o s e n a m e s are v e r y f a m i l i a r . %A ` 2 5 I.G. Farben or something like that, yes \wnnn er\ir\<kli; Sim! 113 1 Q. D i d y o u fini. s 'n y o u r a n s w e r ? 2 A . Y e s . 3 ; i 0. Do you recall whether there was ever any 4 discussion at E d g e w o o d c o n c e r n i n g c o n s i d e r a t i o n of 5 d i o x i n as a p o t e n t i a l c h e m i c a l w a r f a r e a g e n t ? 6 A. I d o n ' t ev e r r e m e m b e r it b e i n g d i s c u s s e d . If 7 it ever m a d e the p r o g r a m , it m a d e it t h r o u g h a. c h e m i s t r y , a n d I ' m n o t a w a r e o f w h e t h e r 1 t d i d o r 9 not. 10 Q. A r e y o u a w a r e of a n y t o x i c o l o g i c a l t e s t s 1 1 on d i o x i n t h a t w e r e p e r f o r m e d at E d g e w o o d ? 1 2 ;A; I t h o u g h t I d i d b u t I d o n ' t k n o w w h e t h e r I d i d 1 3 or n o t . 14 Q. W h a t d i d y o u b e l i e v e ? 15 ;A I t h o u g h t it m i g h t h a v e b e e n in the p r e l i m i n a r y 16 :s c r e e n o f t h e i n i t i a l s c r e e n i n g s e a r c h f o r a l l 1 7 c o m p o u n d s , and it m a y h a v e been, but I d o n ' t 18 r e m e m b e r ever h e a r i n g of it b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e 19 ;t h o u s a n d s of c o m p o u n d s t h a t w e n t t h r o u g h t h a t s c r e e n 20 ;It c e r t a i n l y d i d n ' t go to a s e c o n d a r y screen- or a 2 1 ;t e r t i a r y s c r e e n b e c a u s e b y the time it got to the 22 medical s c r e e n I w o u l d h av e seen it. 2 3 ; i Q. W h a t is the b a s i s for y o u r b e l i e f that 24 :d i o x i n m a y h a v e b e e n i n v e s t i g a t e d at a p r e l i m i n a r y 25 l e v e l for t o x i c i t y ? w nnn nnri sninplli 1 A 'Y '' LL'O- rprtifi<=rL<;hr>rthnnr1 rpn.nrtpr<; Sim 114 1 A. E v e r y c o m p o u n d w a s . E v e r y c o m p o u n d that 2 p o t e n t i a l l y had any k n o w n lethal or i n c a p a c i t a t i n g 3 effect for a period of time was i n v estigated on a 4 p r e l i m i n a r y s c r e e n . J u s t like e v e r y t h i n g in the 5 pharmaceutical area. 6 MR. GORDON: Could ws take a five minute 7 break? a S P E C I A L MA S T E R SCHREIBER: No. How m a n y 9 `more m i n u t e s do you have? Do you want to co nsult 1 0 :w i t h y o u r c o l l e a g u e ? 11 . MR. GORDON: We will not finish with this 12 w i t n e s s . 13 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : I c a n ' t 1 4 i m a g i n e w h y . He: h a s s u c h a p a u c i t y o f k n o w l e d g e a t 15 t h i s po i n t . 16 I MR. G O R D O N : T h e r e are o t h e r t h in g s at 1 7 E d g e w o o d I w o u l d : l i k e to e x a m i n e h i m on. 18 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : T h e n c o n t i n u e , 19 c o u n s e l . W h e r e the w i t n e s s has a f a i l u r e of m e m o r y 20 or n e v e r k n e w it, he c e r t a i n l y is not s o m e o n e who at 21 t h i s s t a g e e x h i b i t s c l e a r k n o w l e d g e . T h e r e a p p e a r 22 to be a l o t : of o t h e r p e o p l e , if th e y are l i v i n g . I 23 am not sure. ,, 24 MR. G O R D O N : T h e y are not. The w i t n e s s 2 5 s t a r e d Dr. H o f f m a n is d e a d and Dr. O w e n s is d e a d an d w aga Qnd spinelii certified shorthand rfannrtorc Sim 115 1 Dr. H o f f m a n is dead. 2 SPECIAL MASTER SCHREIBER: Proceed. 3I MR. L E V I N E : P e r h a p s we m i g h t h av e an 4 offer of proof by Mr. Gordon. 5 S P E C I A L M A S T E R S C H R E I B E R : V/hy d o n ' t w e 6 give the w i t n e s s a few m i n u t e s to re s t and we can 7 1t a k e u p s o m e o t h e r m a t t e r s a t t h i s s t a g e . 8 MR. LEVINE: May I be h ea rd on that 9 ib r i e f l y ? 10 SPEC I A L MASTER SCHREIBER: Off the record 11 ( D e p o s i t i o n r e c e s s e d ) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 <r\p* 25 w aqa and spinelli certified shorthand reporters 1 CERTIFICATE 2 11.6 3 ;; ; I, H E Y W O O D W A G A , a C e r t i f i e d S h o r t h a n d R e p o r t e r 4 and Notary Public of the State of New Jersey, do 5 h e r e b y c e r t i f y that p r i o r to the c o m m e n c e m e n t of the 6 examination the witness and/or witnesses were sworn 7 b y . m e to t e s t i f y the truth, the w h o l e truth and 3 nothing but the truth. 9 I do f u r t h e r c e r t i f y t h a t the f o r e g o i n g is a 1 0 true and accurate computer-aided transcript of the 11 t e s t i m o n y as t a k e n s t e n o g r a p h i c a l l y b y and b e f o r e me 1 2 at the time, place and on the date h e r e i n b e f o r e set 13 forth. 14 I do fu r t h er c e r t i f y that I am n e it h e r of 1 5 c o u n s e l nor a t t o r n e y for a n y p a r t y in this a c t i o n 16 and th a t I am not i n t e r e s t e d in the e v e n t nor 17 o u t c o m e of this l i ti g a t i o n . 1S 19 20 Nota r y Public of the State of New York 21 22 My c o m m i s s i o n e x p i r e s A u g u s t 12, 1935. 23 24 D a t e d : 25 w aga and spinelli certified shorthand reporter; 1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT- OF NEW YORK 2 M D L N o . 3 81 3 4 In; re : Depos i t i o n of: 5 "AGENT ORANGE" : E D W A R D A. M E T C A L F 6 Product Liability Litigation 7 8 9 T R A N S C R I P T of t e s t i m o n y as taken by and b e f or e 1 0 'HELEN DOHOGNE, a C e rtified Shorthand Reporter and 1 1 N o t a r y P u b l i c of the S t ate of New J e r s e y , at the 12 offices of A S H C R A F T & GEREL, 2000 L Street, 1 3 W a s h i n g t o n , D . C . , on T u e s d a y , O c t o b e r 5, 198 2 1 4 c o m m e n c i n g at 1 0 : 3 0 in the f o r e n o o n . 15 15 17 18 19 20 21 22 405 N o r t h f i e l d A v e n u e West Orange, New Jersey 07052 e s m2 3 (201) 7 3 1 - 9 6 6 5 24 i 25 1 APPEARANCES: 2 YANNACONE & ASSOCIATES BY: W. K E I T H K A V E N A G H , ESQ. 3 For the Plaintiffs 4 ASHCRAFT & GEREL BY: R O B E R T A. T A Y L O R , ESQ. 5 For the Plaintiffs 6 RIVKIN, LEFF, SHERMAN & RADLER B Y : W I L L I A M F. C A V A N A U G H , E S Q . 7 Fo r Dow Chem ical 8 CADWALADER, WICKERSHAM & TAFT BY: M I C H A E L M. G O R D O N , ESQ. o For Diamond Shamrock 10 KELLEY, DRYE & WARREN BY: P A T R I C I A C. T U O H Y , ESQ. 1 1 For Hercules, Inc. 12 TOWNLEY & UPDIKE B Y : J A M E S E. T Y R R E L L , J R . , E S Q . 13 For Monsanto Company 1 4 CLARK,. G A G L I A R D I & M I L L E R BY: JOHN BURKE, ESQ. 15 For T.H. A g r i c u l t u r e & N u t r i t i o n Co. Inc. :i 16 BUDD, LARNER, KENT, GROSS, PICILLO & ROSENBAUM 1 7 BY: A L A N G. W H I T E , ESQ. For Thompson Chemicals 18 ARTHUR, DRY & KALISH 1 9 BY: MARILYN NEIMAN, ESQ. For Uniroyal, Inc. 20 21 A R V I N M A S K I N , ESQ. GRETCHEN WITT, ESQ. D epartment of Just i c e 22 For the United States of America 23 A L S O P R E S E N T : H o n o r a b l e Sol S c h r e i b e r 2 4 Special Master 2 5 M A R T H A A. L U T H E R , P a r a l e g a l Ashcraft & Gerel 3 1 IN D X 2 WITNESS DIRECT CROSS RECROSS 3 E D W A R D A. M E T C A L F 4 Mr . Go rd o n i 5 Mr. White 6 : Mr. Tyrrell 7 ; Mr . B ur ke 8 5 80 102 88 92 106 9 10 11 E X H I B I T S 12 NUMBER DESCRIPTION IDENTIFICATION 13 Metcalf-1 14 Metcalf-2 15 16 M e t c a l f - 3 Biographic Sketch of Dr. E d w a r d A. M e t c a l f Memorandum from Dr. J a n d o r f d a t e d 6/5/60 *- Document dated 8/13/63 7 10 30 1 7 Metcalf-4 Three page document 36 entitled "Unlisted Drugs List 18 Metcalf-5 One page document 47 19 e n t i t l e d " C o m m e r c i a l 20 So u rc e Sam pl e Record Log Metcalf-6 Two pages of Dio xi n 21 C o m p o u n d D i a g r a m 56 22 M e t c a l f - 7 A Letter dated 5/19/6 4 63 23 M e t c a l f - 7 B L e t t e r d a t e d 5 / 2 8 / 6 4 24 M e t c a l f - 7 C L e t t e r d a t e d 7 / 1 8 / 6 4 25 Metcalf-7D Letter dated 7/21/64 63 14 63 63 1 2 'N 'JM 3 E R 3 Hetcalf 3 4 it E X- H .J B I T S (C o n t i n u e d ) 4 DESCRIPTION IDENTIFICATION R e d a t e d v e r s i o n of t r i p r e p o r t to E u r o p e 65 i 5 Metcalf 9 Letter dated 9/17/79 78 and memo dated 8/28/68 5 Me tc a 1 f 1 0 Commercial Source Sample 102 7 Record Log 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 1 ED W A R D A. M E T C A L F, 9 0 6 ' W e l l i n g t o n 2 Road, Baltimore, Maryland, sworn: 3 DI RE CT E X A M I N A T I O N BY MR. GORDON: i 4 Q. W o u l d y o u p l e a s e s t a t e y o u r f u l l n a m e and 5 address for the reporter? 6 A. E d w a r d A. M e t c a l f , 906 W e l l i n g t o n R o a d , 7 Baltimore, Maryland, 21212. 8 Q. Dr. M e t c a l f , a r e y o u r e p r e s e n t e d at t h i s 9 d e p o s i t i o n by l e g a l c o u n s q 1? 1 0 A . No . 1 1 Q. Dr. M e t c a l f , w o u l d you p l e a s e let me k n o w 1 2 if at a n y time y o u n e e d to h a v e a q u e s t i o n c l a r i f i e d 1 3 or if y o u ' d l i k e to e x p a n d u p o n an a n s w e r a l r e a d y 1 4 g i v e n d u r i n g the! c o u r s e of t h i s d e p o s i t i o n ; is t h a t 15 understood? 16 A . 1 Understood.; 1 7 ' ' Q. In a d d i t i o n , just b e f o r e the d e p o s i t i o n , 18 you a d v i s e d me t h a t b e c a u s e of y o u r m e d i c a l 1 9 c o n d i t i o n , it m a y be n e c e s s a r y f or y o u to t a k e a I : ; 20 b r e a k , a n d as I s t a t e d to you, p l e a s e f e e l f r e e to 21 let us k n o w if at a n y t i m e y o u w o u l d l i k e to t a k e a I: . i 'i I 22 recess for w h a t e v e r reason. 2 3 A. T h a t I u n d e r s t a n d . 24 Q . T h a n k y o u . 2 5 Dr. Metcalf, did you meet with any M e tc a1 f 6 1 g o v e r n m e n t l a w y e r in p r e p a r a t i o n fo r y o u r 2 examination today? 3 A . Yes, Ms. Gretchen Witt. 4 ; Q. W h e n d i d y o u m e e t ..with Ms . W i t t ? 5 A .; T h i s m o r n i ng at n i n e o' c l o c k . 6 | ;. Q. W e r e y o u s h o w n o r d i d y o u r e c e i v e a n y 7 d o c urn en t s f r o m M s . W i t t t h i s m o r n : n a ? 8 A .i No . 9 MS . WITT: W e did n't receive any 1 0 d o c urn e n t s f r o m Dr. M e t c a l f . 1 1 MR. GORDON: Okay. Off the record. 1 2 (T h e r e is a d i s c u s s i o n off the r e c o r d ) 1 3 Q. D i d y p u r e v i e w a n y w r i t t e n m a t e r i a l s in 14 .preparation for your d e p o s i t i o n here today? 1 5 A.: No. 1 6 Q. A s i d e f r o m Ms. W i t t , did you m e e t or 17 s p e a k w i t h a n y o n e e l s e in c o n n e c t i o n w i t h y o u r 18 deposition? 1 9 A. No, o n l y a s j f a r as m a k i n g a r r a n g e m e n t s and 20 ;wh,either I w o u l d be w i l l i n g to or n o t a n d t h a t w a s 2 1 B.*a rib a r a , I t h i n k !-- 22 ;; ; Q . R iv k in ? 2 3 A. R i v k i n , yes. 143 r: q O kJ 24 Q.' Thank you 2 5 Did you bring a copy of a urriculum Metcalf 7 1 v i t a e or b i o g r a p h i c a l s-ketch with you today? 2 A. I b r o u g h t a r e s u m e t h a t is n ot c o m p l e t e l y up to 3 date . 4 MR. GORDON: Miss R e p o r t e r , would you 5 p l ease mark as M e t c a l f E xhibit 1 a d o c u m e n t dated 5 October 1971 entitled b iographic sketch, Dr. Edward 7 A. M e t c a l f . 8 ( M e t c a l f - 1 is m a r k e d for I d e n t i f i c a t i o n ) 9 Q. Dr. M e t c a l f , s h o w i n g you w h a t h a s b e e n 1 0 m a r k e d as M e t c a l f E x h i b i t 1, is t h i s a c o p y of t h e 1 1 resume that you brought with you today? 1 2 A. As n e a r l y as I c a n tell. 1 3 Q. I c a n t e l l y o u t h a t it is, in f a c t , 'the 1 4 resume you brought with you this morning and there 1 5 have been no c h a n g e s made. 1 6 Dr. Metcalf, does Exhibit 1 a c c u r a t e l y 1 7 set forth your educational and employment background? 18 A . 1 On t h e b a s i s of a q u i c k r e v i e w , it l o o k s to be 19 a c c u r a t e . 20 Q. W h a t is y o u r -- s t r i k e t h a t 21 Are you c u r r e n t l y e m p l o y e d ? 2 2 A No, I'm retired. 23 Q. A n d d i d y o u r e t i r e in 1 9 7 1 ? 2 4 A No . 143 n q 2 5 Q. W h e n d i d y o u r e t i r e ? Metcalf 8 1 AJ 1974, about mid year . 2 Q . What was your job title at the time of , 3 your retirement? I :i 4 , A , A s s i s t a n t t o t h e d i r e c t o r o f r e s e a r c h f o r , .5 ;c h e m i c a l r e s e a r c h - - f o r E d g e w o o d A r s e n a l . That was 6 !a s s i s t a n t t o t h e d i r e c t o r o f r e s e a r c h , E d g e w o o d 7 Arsenal . 8 Q. H o w l o n g d i d y o u h o l d t h a t p o s i t i o n ? 9 A .. From 1971 until I retired. 1 0 .I . Q. W h i c h w a s in 1 9 7 4 ? .* 11 A * : Y e s , I r e t i r e d in 1 9 7 4 . 1 2 Q. W h c w a s t h e d i r e c t o r o f r e s e a r c h f o r 1 3 E d g e w o o d d u r i n g 1971 to 1 9 7 4 ? 14 .A .i . D r . B.L.r H a r r i s . i p: i '> ' ; I think those initials are ;i :: i 15 c o r r e c t . j 16 i.l.lj; Q. What were your duties and ;:h;| j 17 r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s ,as a s s i s t a n t to Dr. H a r r i s ? ' : j i ! 18 I w a s in c h a r g e of B l u e S k y and b a s i c r e s e a r c h . ::| M ' ; 19 T h i s h a d to do w i t h a w a r d i n g f u n d s to v a r i o u s .'\ \\ \ 20 r e s e a r c h . g r o u p s in the E d g e w o o d c o m p l e x , w a t c h i n g 21 f,or; t h e f u n d i n g , m a k i n g s u r e t h e r e p o r t s w e r e in o n 22 t i m e , s e l e c t i n g t h o s e w h i c h s e e m to be w o r t h w h i l e in I 2 3 terms of the funding available. This, of course, j 2 4 all with the a p p r o v a l of the d i r e c t o r . 1 4 3 0|0 2 5 Q. Y o u ' v e r e f e r r e d to B l u e S k y . W h a t is M e tc a 1 f 9 1 Blue Sky? 2 A . B l u e S k y is an idea t h a t s h o u l d be l o o k e d a t 3 that has no i m m e d i a t e c u r r e n c y u r u s e f u l n e s s , but if 4 the idea is w o r k e d o u t , it m a y h a v e s o m e use to the 5 Chemical Corps some time down the road. 6 ! :; Q Dr. M e t c a l f , d u r i n g your t e n u r e as 7 a s s i s t a n t to Dr. H a r r i s , do you have any 8 ; r e c o llection of any d i s c u s s i o n s that occurred 9 concerning either 2,3,7,8 1 O t e t r a c h 1o r o d i b e n z o - p - d i o x i n or v a r i o u s h e r b i c i d e s 1 1 c o n t a i n i n g 2 , 4 , 5 - T such as Agent Orange? 1 2 MR. K A V E N A G H : O b j e c t . T h e r e ' s no 1 3 foundation for that. 1 4 Q. Y o u m a y a n s w e r t h e q u e s t i o n . F o r 15 - c l a r i f i c a t i o n , w h e n Mr. K a v e n a g h m a k e s an o b j e c t i o n , 1 6 t h a t is for p u r p o s e s of the r e c o r d and y o u c an 17 e s s e n t i a l l y i g n o r e it in m a k i n g y o u r a n s w e r . W o u l d 1 8 :y o u l i k e to h a v e 1 t h e q u e s t i o n r e p e a t e d ? 1 9 A. To t h e b e s t of m y r e c o l l e c t i o n , t h e s e c o m p o u n d s , 20 ,I -have no r e c o l l e c t i o n of them. 21 M R . G O R D O N : M i s s R e p o r t e r , w o u l d y o u 22 please mark as M e t c a l f E x h i b i t 2 a m e m o r a n d u m from 23 Dr. J a n d o r f to the d i r e c t o r of R e s e a r c h L a b o r a t o r i e s slipsl4362 4 d a t e d J u n e 5, 1 9 7 0 a n d an a t t a c h e d r o u t i n g 2 5 from Dr. J a n d o r f to Dr. M c N a m a r a d a t e d J u n e 10, 1 9 7 0 . Me tc a 1 f 1 (Exhibit Metcalf-2 is marked for 10 2 : - I d e n t i f i c a t i o n ) 3 J'i Q . Dr. Metcalf, would you please review 4 iExihibit 2 and teli me w h e t h e r y o u ' v e e v e r s e e n t h a t 5 document before? 6 A.i N o t to t h e b e s t o f m y k n o w l e d g e h a v e I s e e n 7 this document. 8 i Q. D o e s t hii s d o c u m e n t r e f r e s h y o u r 9 r e c o l l e c t i o n in a n y w a y a s _ t o a n y d i s c u s s i o n s t h a t 1 0 you may have had concerning either 2,3,7,8 11 t e t r a c h l o r o d i b e n z o - p - d i o x i n or 2 , 4 , 5 - T ? 1 2 A . ; No . 1 3 Q. Ho w long did Dr. H a r r i s s e r v e as d i r e c t o r 1 4 of Research L a b o r a t o r i e s ? 15 A.: A f a i r n u m b e r o f y e a r s , b u t I c a n ' t g i v e y o u 15 a n y d a t e s . It w a s b e f o r e , n a t u r a l l y , I b e c a m e an 1 7 a s s i s t a n t to .h i m a n d he r e t i r e d , I u n d e r s t a n d , I 18 d o n ' t k n o w t h i s f o r a f a c t , b u t I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t he 1 9 retired here a year or two ago, but -- 20 ' Q. Was Dr. H a r r i s d i r e c t o r of R e s e a r c h 21 L a b o r a t o r i e s at t h e t i m e of h i s r e t i r e m e n t ? 22 A. ' I d o n ' t know from my o w n k n o w l e d g e , but I 23 u n d e r s t o o d that he w a s . 24 ; Q. Foll o w i n g your work as a s s i s t a n t t o D r . 2 5 Harris, have you had any other employment? 14363 Metcalf 1 A . No . ~ 2 Q. A c c o r d i n g to E x h i b i t .1, y o u b e g a n y o u r 3 e m p l o y m e n t at E d g e w o o d in 1 9 5 0 ; is t h a t c o r r e c t ? 4 A. Yes . 5 Q. And th a t was as a r e s e a r c h c h e m i s t ? 6 A.1 Yes. 7 Q. C o u l d y o u d e s c r i b e for me the w o r k t h a t 8 y o u w e r e i n v o l v e d in in a g e n e r a l s o r t of w a y as a 9 r e s e a r c h c h e m i s t a t E d g . e w o o d d u r i n g 19 5,0 to 1 9 5 6 ? 1 0 A. I c a n ' t do m u c h b e t t e r t h a n the s e n t e n c e s 1 1 d e s c r i b i n g that p o s i t i o n on the b i o g r a p h i c sketch. 1 2 Q. Did y o u r d u t i e s i n c l u d e s y n t h e s i z i n g 13 organic compounds? 1 4 A . Yes. 15 j Q. Was there a name for the b r a n c h or : i. ; ' 16 d i v i s i o n t h a t s y n t h e s i z e d o r g a n i c c o m p o u n d s at 17 `E d g e w o o d in t h e e a r l y 1 9 5 0 ' s ? 18 A . ' W o u l d you r e p e a t t h a t for me p l e a s e . 19 j ;; Q. C e r t a i n l y . W a s t h e r e a n a m e for the 20 b r a n c h o r d i v i s i o n w h i c h w a s e n g a g e d in s y n t h e s i z i n g 21 o r g a n i c c o m p o u n d s at E d g e w o o d in the e a r l y 1 9 5 0 ' s ? 2 2 A V ; Y e s , t h e r e w a s a n a m e b u t I c o u l d n ' t t e l ^ ^ p ^ p 23 w h a t i t w a s . 24 :! Q. Do y o u r e c a l l w h o y o u r e p o r t e d to w h e n 25 y o u w e r e a r e s e a r c h c h e m i s t ? Metcalf 12 1 A .! T h e c h i e f o f t h a t . p a r t i c u l a r g r o up - - at o n e 2 t i m e i t w a s a D r . F a b e r . It s e e m s to me t h a t a t 3 a no t h e r t i m e it wa s Dr. W i t t e n . 4 Q. W a s it Dr. W i t t e n a f t e r Dr . F a b e r ? 5 A . Yes , it m u s t h a v e b e e n . 6 Q. Do yo u r e c a l l w h a t e i t h e r D r . F a b e r 's 7 Dr. W i t t e n ' s title was at that time? 8 A. T h e y w e r e c h i e f of the n a m e of the g r o u p t h a t I 9 .didn't recall. 10 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l the n a m e s of a n y of the 11 p e o p l e t h a t yo u w o r k e d w i t h w h e n you w e r e a r e s e a r c h 12 chemist? 13 A. T h e r e w e r e a c o n s i d e r a b l e n u m b e r , b o t h m i l i t a r y 14 a n d c i v i l i a n , b u t as f a r as n a m e s go, I h a v e no 15 r e c o l l e c t i o n . i ` I i 16 , i :: Q. A c c o r d i n g to E x h i b i t 1, y o u w e r e a l s o 17 a c t i n g c h i e f o f t h e .N e w A g e n t s B r a n c h f r o m 1 9 5 6 to 18 1.95.7; .is t h a t c o r r e c t ? 19 A,. A s f a r a s t h i s r e s u m e g o e s , I c o u l d n ' t h a v e :i 20 g iv en y o u t h e y e a r s w i t h o u t r e f e r e n c e to t h e r e s u m e : 21 | ;i ^Q . But you d o r e c a l l -- 2 2 A|. :! Y e s , ;I w a s c h i e f o f t h a t b r a n c h s o m e p e r i o d in 23 the r e for a short! time. i: 24 vj j Q. What, was the f u n c t i o n of the new agents 25 b r a n c h ? M e tc a 1 f 13 1 A l: To the b e s t o my r e c o l l e c t i o n , it had o n l y o n e 2 r e s p o n s i b i l i t y and that was to s y n t h e s i z e c o m p o u n d s 3 that may h ave some p o t e n t i a l as new a g e n t s . 4 Q. H o w d i d the n e w a g e n t s b r a n c h d e t e r m i n e 5 w h i c h a g e n t s to s y n t h e s i z e ? 6 A To the best! of my r e c o l l e c t i o n , there w e r e two 7 p r o c ed u r e s , o n e , i d e a s g e n e r a t e d f a r t h e r up the lin e 8 that someone felt were wo rthwhile or ideas that were o g e n e r a t e d in the b r a n c h 1 0 Q. W h e n y o u s a y i d e a s g e n e r a t e d f u r t h e r up 1 1 the lin e , w h e r e was up the l i n e ? 1 2 A. On up to t h e d i r e c t o r of the l a b o r a t o r i e s at 1 3 that time. There were various and sundry groups 1 4 that had responsibilities along these particular 1 5 lines and they would flow down through channels. 1 6 That's what I meant up the line. 1 7 Q. A s to; i d e a s t h a t w e r e g e n e r a t e d in t h e 18 n e w a g e n t s b r a n c h , h o w d i d t h e n e w a g e n t s b r a n c h 1 9 come up with these ideas? 2 0 A. As I r e c a l l , it w o u l d be g e n e r a l p e r u s a l of the 2 1 literature and then checking with people who had 22 been -- that were farther up the line 23 o r g a n i z a t i o n a 1 1 y to see w h e t h e r a n y t h i n g l ike t hat 2 4 ha d b e e n l o o k e d at b e f o r e an d a l i b r a r y s e a r c h if 2 5 t h e i d e a s e e m e d to w a r r a n t m e r i t , a l i b r a r y s e.qrric h; Metcalf 14 1 to d e t e r in i n e if a n y o n e e l s e h a d l o o k e d at t h e m in 2 any way, shape or form. : j 3 Q. W h a t t y p e s of l i t e r a t u r e w e r e r e v i e w e d in 4 the new agents branch? 5 A. G e n e r a l s c i e n t i f i c p e r i o d i c a l s . 6 Q. W a s t h e r e a l i b r a r y at E d g e w o o d for t h e s e : 7 periodicals? ! j 8 A.^ Y e s . 9 Q. W a s t h e r e a n a m e for t h a t l i b r a r y ? 1 0 A. It' p r o b a b l y h a d a n u m b e r o f n a m e s b u t w e j u s t 11 r e f e r r e d to it as a l i b r a r y a n d w a s d e s i g n a t e d as 1 2 the C h e m i c a l Research L a b o r a t o r y or something 1 3 a p p r o x i m a t i n g that at the time. 1 4 Q. T h e C h e m i c a l R e s e a r c h L a b o r a t o r y L i b r a r y ? 1 5 :A J Y e s . ; .i : 1 fi : Q. You also mentioned that a library search i 1 7 would be conducted. What did a library search 1 8 en t a il ? 1 ! : \ = 1 9 A:.! W e l l , j u s t g o i n g o n g e n e r a l b a c k g r o u n d ;!:i 20 k n o w l e d g e , it w o u l d be a c h e c k t h r o u g h the 14360 21 ^ l i t e r a t u r e to see w h a t was k n o w n a b o u t t h e s e 2 2 p a r t i c u l a r ideas or c o m p o u n d s to d e t e r m i n e their 2 3 p h y s i o l o g i c a l p r o p e r t i e s if k n o w n ; in o t h e r w o r d s , 24 just like any l i b r a r y r e s e a r c h w o uld be c a r r i e d out 2 5 to f i n d o'ut w h a t is k n o w n , w h a t w a s t h e s t a t e o f t h e J Metcalf 15 1 a r t , so to s p e a k . 2 I ;i Q . W e r e t h e s e l i b r a r y s e a r c h e s c a r r i e d o u t 3 by m e m b e r s of the New A g e n t s Branch.? 4 A . . Yes. 5 ! 'i Q- As a c t i n g c h i e f of the N e w A g e n t s B r a n c h , 6 w h o d id yo u r e p o r t t o ? 7 A . : I 'v e a l r e a d y a n s w e r e d tha t que s t io n . 8 ; Q. My previous -- 9 a .: I men tioned the name of Faber and Witten a s .i*" 1 0 bei ng the c h i e f s of that b r a n c h . 11 ! ;, Q . My p r e v i o u s q u e s t i o n had add ressed wh o 1 2 yo u h a d r e p o r t to in t he c o n t e x t of b e i n g r e s e a r c h 1 3 ehern ist in 1 9 5 0 to 1 9 5 6 . N o w , as a c t i n g c h i e f of 1 4 t h e N e w A g e n t s B r a n c h , d i d y o u a l s o r e p o r t to e i t h e r 1 5 Dr . F a b e r or D r . W i t t e n ? 1 6 A . : To t h e b e s t 1o f m y r e c o l l e c t i o n . i 1 7 ! i -; ' Q . In 1956 , y o u b e c a m e c h i e f of the I n d u s t r y 1 8 Li'aison O f f i c e ; is that, c o r r e c t ? 19 A.i T h a t ' s c o r r e c t . 20 Q. W h e n w a s t h e I n d u s t r y L i a i s o n O f f i c e 21 e s t a b l i s h e d ? 2 2 A . I w o u l d s a y 11 9 5 6 . 23 Q. W e r e you the f i r s t c h a i r m a n of the 24 I n d u s t r y L i a i s o n O f f i c e ? 25 A'. Y e s 143'?^ M e tc a 1 16 1 Q. At the t i m e the I n d u s t r y L i a i s o n O f f i c e 2 s t a r t e d in 1 9 5 6 , w h o e l s e w o r k e d in t h e I n d u s t r y 3 Liaison Office? 4 A . ! W h e n it s t a r t e d , I had a s e c r e t a r y p e r i o d , 5 j .. i Q. I n c i d e n t a l l y , D r . M e t c a l f , if I r e f e r to 5 the I n d u s t r y L i a i s o n O f f i c e as the ILO, will you 7 u n d e r s t a n d tha t I'm r e f e r r i n g to the I n d u s t r y 8 Liaison Office? 9 A | Yes. , 10 : ! Q. Between 1956 and 1966, were additional 11 e m p l o y e e s a d d e d to the I L O ? 1 2 A.; I Y e s . i 13 ; Q. Could: you tell me who those employees 14 w e r e ? 1< 1 1 5 A. ; O n l y two or t h r e e n a m e s c o m e to m i n d , C a p t a i n 16 Wil;liam N e l s o n , A l a n G r e e n b e r g -- no, I'm s o r r y , not 1 7 G.reenberg, scratch that. Alan Gelberg, Charles 18 G r a n i to. T h e r e w e r e s e v e r a l o t h e r m i l i t a r y and 19 n u m e r o u s c l e r i c a l p e o p l e . T h o s e a re the o n l y n a m e s il . 2 0 t h a t I. c o m e u p w i t h . .- ' i 21 Q. Did you know a Mr. David Renard? 22 A'.j Y e s . T h a t w a s a n o t h e r o n e , D a v i d R e n a r d a n d 23 tjhat t r i g g e r s a n o t h e r o n e , he h a d a c l o s e f r i e n d , I 24 do r e m e m b e r , C h a r l e s , with a q u e s t i o n mark, Holly. 2 5 D i d y o u k n o w a R i c h a r d A. K r e i g e r ? Metcalf 1 A .: AR i c h a r d . Kre iger? 17 2 I don't recall that name. 3 ' :1 Q . C u r i n g w h a t t i m e p e r i o d d i d Ca p t a i n 4 N e l s o n w o r k in t h e I L O ? 5 A. E a r l y in the g a m e . He w a s the f i r s t o n e t h a t 5 c a m e w i t h me to h e l p o u t in the p r o g r a m but h o w l o n g 7 he w a s w i t h it, I d o n ' t r e c a l l . 8 Q. H o w a b o u t A l a n G e l b e r g ? 9 A. I c a n ' t g i v e y o u a n y d a t e s . A l l I r e m e m b e r , he 1 0 was the first scientific civilian or civilian 1 1 s c i e n t i s t t h a t c a m e to w o r k w i t h m e . 1 2 Q. Was Mr. G r a n i t o a c i v i l i a n s c i e n t i s t a l s o ? i 3 A . Yes. 1 4 i Q. W h e n d i d Mr. G r a n i t o c o m e to the I L O ? 1 5 A. S o m e t i m e l a t e r . 1 5 I 'M Q. H o w a b o u t D a v i d R e n a r d ? ,1li ;; 1 17 |A.;| I b e l i e v e v in t h e s c h e m e o f t h i n g s he a p p e a r e d 1 8 later than the last one that I m e ntioned. 19 I; .j ;; Q. i L a t e r 'than Mr. G r a n i t o ? 20 A . Y e s . i[ 21 i! ,i ; Q. How about Charles Holly? 22 A . He was still later yet. 2 3 j ;; Q. At the t i m e y o u l e f t the ILO in 19 6 6 , d o 2 4 you r e c a l l w h e t h e r any of t h o s e gen t l e m e n were- s t i l l 2 5 a t the ILO? 1436S Metcalf 18 j ! 1 'A.! I t h i n k t h a t H o l l y , R e n a r d a n d p o s s i b l y G r a n i t o i ;i 2 were there when I left. 3 Q. Did y o u h a v e a s u c c e s s o r as c h i e f o f the 4 I LO ? 5 A .. Y e s . 6 Q. W h o w a s y o u r s u c c e s s o r? 7 A. Ed S c h w a n k e . I d o n 't r e c a l l w h e t h e r he h a d a 8 PhD or not. 9 Q. Is the I L O s t i l l in e x i s t e n c e , do y o u 10 know? 11 A. N o t f r o m m y o w n k n o w l e d g e . 1 2 Q. H a v e y o u h e a r d t h a t the I L O is s t i l l in 1 3 ex i s t e n c e ? 1 4 A . : I h a v e h e a r d t h a t it w e n t d o w n h i l l r a t h e r 15 r a p i d l y . 1 6 Q. H a v e you: h e a r d w h e t h e r the o f f i c e i t s e l f 1 7 was ever closed down at any time? 1 8 A 1: I d o n ' t k n o w -- i : 1 9 MR . K A V E N A G H : He a l r e a d y a n s w e r e d that 20 b y :t h e w a y , t w i c e n o w . 21 ; : MR . GORDON : I didn't hear that answer. 22 .! :: i1 23 MR. K A V E N A G H : "No, I don' t remember." MR . G O R D O N : The q u e s t i o n is w h e t h e r he 2 4 hUdl h e a r d w h e t h e r t h e o f f i c e h a d b e e n c l o s e d d o w n . 25 A . I b e l i e v e that s o m e t i m e d u r i n g the p e r i o d w h e n ____II* 14370 Metcalf 19 1 I w a s in -- w h e n I s e r v e d as a s s i s t a n t to the 2 d i r e c t o r of research. I understood at that time 3 that they were downplaying this idea which would 4 l e a d me to b e l i e v e t h a t e v e n t u a l l y it w a s e i t h e r 5 given a v e r y . l o w c a t e g o r y or the o f fice was closed, 5 but I don't know positively. 7 ;! Q. D r . M e t c a l f , w h a t w e r e t h e f u n c t i o n s a n d 8 r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s of the ILO during the period 1955 9 to '1 9 5 6 ? * - -' i 1 0 A. W e l l , the i d e a t h e r e w a s to c o n t a c t i n d u s t r i a l 1 1 a n d a c a d e m i c l a b o r a t o r i e s t h r o u g h o u t the U.S. to see 1 2 what kinds of p r o p r i e t a r y research was being carried 1 3 on; t h a t w o u l d b e o f a s s i s t a n c e to t h e c h e m i c a l w o r l d 1 4 a n d to e s t a b l i s h -- w e l l , u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t the 1 5 .kind of r e s e a r c h that we were talking a b out was 16 p r o b a b l y p r o p r i e t a r y . It w a s to e s t a b l i s h a p r o g r a m , 17 i n - h o u s e p r o g r a m to i n s u r e the s a f e k e e p i n g of t h a t 18 i n f o r m a t i o n and to let t h e s e v a r i o u s c o n t a c t s k n o w 19 a b o u t any i n f o r m a t i o n that the C h e m i c a l C o r p s 20 d e v e l o p e d on the i d e a s t h a t the c o m p a n i e s or 21 u n i v e r s i t i e s had p r e s e n t e d . T h i s a l s o i n c l u d e d 22 o b t a i n i n g s a m p l e s f r o m t i m e to t i m e a nd s h a r i n g the 23 i n - h o u s e t e s t i n g of t h o s e s a m p l e s w i t h the d o n o r . 2 4 Q. W h a t t y p e s of c o m p o u n d s w a s th e IL O 25 i n t e r e s t e d f r o m in r e c e i v i n g f rom i n d u s t r y ? its) > 1 Metcalf 20 1 :A .j T h e y w e r e - - we- w e r e i n t e r e s t e d in r e c e i v i n g 2 not all c o m p o u n d s t h a t i n d u s t r y was w i l l i n g to 3 furnish, but only selected compounds that would, 'll 4 perhaps, provide; a lead toward a new agent, provide 5 a n e w i d e a , s a y , f o r an a n a l y t i c a l t e c h n i q u e or to 6 provide assistance with any ongoing research program. 7 |: Q. W h e n y o u r e f e r to a n e w . a g e n t , a r e y o u 8 r e f e r r i n g to a l e t h a l c h e m i c a l w a r f a r e a g e n t ? 9 M R . T A Y L O R : O b j e c t to the f o r m . 1 0 Q. I ' l l r e p h r a s e it. 11 W h e n y o u refer- to n e w a g e n t , w h a t t y p e o f 1 2 agent are you r e f e r r i n g to? 1 3 A. I I t h i n k by the d e f i n i t i o n that -- at l e a s t the 1 4 way I w o u l d i n t e r p r e t it, w o u l d be any c o m p o u n d t h a t 1 5 - w o u l d h a v e s o m e use to the C h e m i c a l C o r p s . 1 5 - M i Q. M! W h a t t y p e s of c o m p o u n d s w o u l d be of use 17 ;t:o| jthe C h e m i c a l C o r p s in t h e e a r l y to m i d 1 9 6 0 ' s ? ;I :j 18 hi -1 j- MR. KAVENAGH: T h a t 's a very, very vague 1 9 ^q.u ejs t i o n . W o u l d y o u r e p h r a s e t h a t a n d b e m o r e 'l j 20 s p e c i f i c . 2 1 ' Mi Q D r . M e t c a l f , c a n y o u a n s w e r t h e q u e s t i o n 22 the:.way it' s been, a s k e d ? 2 3 A L 1 1 would prefer a more specific type question. 24 Q. O k a y , f i n e ,O t! 0 2 5 Did you have discussions with industry Metcalf 21 1 conc e r n i n g the a c t i v i t i e s of the ILO? 2 A.: Y e s . 3 Q . And during those discus s i o n s , did you 4 d e s c r i b e the f u n c t i o n of the ILO? 5 A . Yes. 6 , | Q. During those discus s i o n s , did you 7 ;describe the types of com p o u n d s that the ILO was 8 i n t e r e s t e d in? 9 A. O n l y . i n v e r y g e n e r a l t e r m s . 1 0 ; Q. Fine. Would you tell me thegeneral 1 1 t e r m s in w h i c h y o u d e s c r i b e d t h o s e c o m p o u n d s t h a t 1 2 y o u w e r e i n t e r e s t e d in to i n d u s t r y ? 1 3 A. In 1 9 5 6 to 1 9 6 6 , I c o u l d h a v e s p e n t the n e x t 14 .hour telling youabout this, but right now, anything 1 5 I would say w o u l d be a sheer g u e s s and I don't think 16 I should guess. 17 i Q. W h a t d i d E d g e w o o d p l a n to do w i t h t he 18 a g e n t s t h a t it w a s l o o k i n g for f r o m i n d u s t r y ? 1 9 MR. T A Y L O R : O b j e c t i o n to a l a c k of 20 f o u n d a t i o n . The d o c t o r here w o u l d n ' t know what 21 E d g e w o o d A r s e n a l d i d w i t h t h o s e a g e n t s . 2 2 M ; Q. Y o u m a y a n s w e r the q u e s t i o n . 23 A. Beg y o u r p a r d o n ? 24 Q. Y o u c a n a n s w e r th e q u e s t i o n . 2 5 A . W o u l d yo u r e p e a t the q u e s t i o n ? 14373 i j i Metcalf 22 1 ;i MR. GORDON: Sure. Would you read the 2 question back please. 3' (The r e c o r d is re a d ) 4 A. In the f i r s t p l a c e , t r y i n g to r e c a l l t h e s e t u p 5 as ;it w a s t h e n , t h e C h e m i c a l C o r p s d i d n o t e x p e c t to 6 g e t a n y c h e m i c a l a g e n t s d i r e c t l y f r o m i n d u s t r y . It 7 was a m a t t e r of p r o v i d i n g ideas and s u g g e s t i o n s 8 through the Industrial Liaison Program. I'm sorry, i 9 t h e 1 I n d u s t r i a l L i a i s o n P r o g r a m is t h e p r o g r a m 10 c o n d u c t e d by the Ind.ustrial L i a i s o n O f f i c e . 11 Q. D i d the ILO r e c e i v e c h e m i c a l c o m p o u n d s 12 from industry? 13 A . Yes. 1 4 !>l' Q. When the ILO received a chemical compound 1 5 from i n d u s t r y , what did the ILO do with that i: 16 compo und? 1 7 A 1. | T h e c o m p o u n d ' w a s l o g g e d in a n d h a n d c a r r i e d to 1' i ; i 18 the' g r o u p t h a t h a d t h e m a j o r i n t e r e s t in t h e 1 9 evaluation of that compound. 20 Q. W h i c h g r o u p was t h a t ? 21 A. It c o u l d h a v e b e e n a n y o n e o f a n u m b e r of 22 g r o u p s , d e p e n d i n g on the t y p e of c o m p o u n d . It m a y 2 3 have been several groups. 2 4 Q. W h a t w e r e t h e g r o u p s t h a t m i g h t h a v e h a d 2 5 an i n t e r e s t in a p a r t i c u l a r c o m p o u n d ? 143/4 Metcalf 23 1 A. It c o u l d h a v e b e e n - a n a l y t i c a l , t o x i c o l o g y . I' m I' 2 sure there were o t h e r g r o u p s that we sent then to, 3 but t h a t ' s as far as I can go. 4 ! ; Q. W h a t t y p e s of c o m p o u n d s w a s a n a l y t i c a l 5 i n t e r e s t e d in? 6 A. I h a v e no r e c o l l e c t i o n now. 7 I Q. W h o w a s in c h a r g e of the a n a l y t i c a l g r o u p 8 in t h e e a r l y 1 9 6 0 ' s ? 9 A. No n a m e c o m e s to m i n d . 1 0 Q. W h a t t y p e s of c o m p o u n d s w a s t o x i c o l o g y 1 1 i n t e r e s t e d in? 1 2 A. Oh, they m a y have been s t u d y i n g a s e r i e s of 13 c o m p o u n d s and h e r e w a s o n e m o r e of the s a m e s e r i e s 1 4 that had shown possibly some degree of interest and 1 5 so t h e y w a n t e d to add o n e m o r e p i e c e of d a t a to a 16 i s t u d y o f a series. 17 i, Q. W h o w a s in c h a r g e o f t h e t o x i c o l o g y g r o u p ? !; 18 ,A .. It s e e m s t o m e t h e r e w a s - - a n d I d o n ' t 'i ` 1 9 ^ r e m e m b e r the y e a r s h e r e , b u t a l o n g in t h e r e 20 s o m e p l a c e a Dr. B e r n a r d M c N a m a r a was chief of I' 21 t o x i c o l o g y . 22 II:. Q. Did the ILO have c o n t a c t s with Dr. 2 3 M c N a m a r a or the t o x i c o l o g y group? 24 A. i Yes 2 5 Q And what sorts of c o n t a c t s did the ILO Metcalf 24 1 h a v e w i t h Dr. M c N a m a r a -and his g r o u p ? i ; 2 .A .: W e l l , it s e e m s to m e t h e r e m i g h t h a v e b e e n j 3 three t y p e s , o n e , the s a m p l e s t h a t we r e c e i v e d , 4 S e c o n d l y , r e c e i v i n g the r e p o r t s of his work so that 5 we; c o u l d i n f o r m t h e d o n o r a n d , t h i r d l y , he w a s a 5 member of a group that reviewed practically all the 7 i n f o r m a t i o n that c a m e into the ILO to d e t e r m i n e 8 wh e t h e r there would be i n t erest or not. 9 Q . Was there a^name for that group? 1 0 A. T h e r e w a s a n a m e s o m e t h i n g l i k e the I n d u s t r i a l 11 L i a i s o n P r o g r a m A d v i s o r y C o m m i t t e e o r s o m e t h i n g of 1 2 tha t so rt . 1 3 :;M ; q . Do you r e c a l l a T o x i c i t y S c r e e n i n g B r a n c h 1 4 at Edgewood? 15 A . Yes. 16 : :: Q. Do y o u r e c a l l w h o w a s in c h a r g e of the 17 -Tox i c i t y S c r e e n i n g B r a n c h ? 18 ;A'.` | I d o n ' t k n o w w h e n t h a t c a m e i n t o b e i n g . T h a t 1 9 w'a s a r e s u l t o f s o m e r e o r g a n i z a t i o n o r o t h e r . 20 : :;i I b e l i e v e t h a t it w a s a Dr. D i c k H o r n t o n . 21 :j Q. What did the Toxicity Screening Branch do? 22 A!..! ! T h e y w e r e c o m p o u n d s f o r -- c o m p o u n d s f o r s o m e 23 of; t h e s e i d e a s w e r e s y n t h e s i z e d i n - h o u s e a n d to t h e 24 b e s t of m y r e c o l l e c t i o n , t h e i r r e s p o n s i b i l i t y w a s to ::j )) "| 2 5 screen these compounds that were synthesized vi u Metcalf 25 1 i n - h o u s e for a p p l i c a b i l i t y to the p r o g r a m s that the 2 c o r p s w a s i n t e r e s t e d in. 3 Q. W h e r e w e r e the c o m p o u n d s t h a t w e r e t e s t e d 4 by Dr. H o r t o n ' s g r o u p s y n t h e s i z e d at E d g e w o o d ? 5 A . In-house. 6 Q. W a s t h e r e a n a m e for the i n - h o u s e g r o u p 7 that synthesized those compounds? 8 A. W e l l , lik e we h a v e m e n t i o n e d b e f o r e , I d o n ' t 9 k n o w w h e t h e r it w a s e x i s t i n g s i m u l t a n e o u s l y but it 1 0 w o u l d be s o m e t h i n g l i k e t h e N e w A g e n t s B r a n c h or t h e -j 11 j u s t a s t r a i g h t o r g a n i c s y n t h e s i s g r o u p . T h a t ' s t h e 1 2 best I can do for you and try and a l l o c a t e that. 1 3 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l w h o w a s in c h a r g e o f t h a t 14 b r a n c h in the e a r l y 1 9 5 0 's? 15 A . i No . Oh , now, w a i t a m i n u t e . One of t h o s e wa s 1 6 h e a d e d by Dr . W i t t e n . He had a lot to do w i t h 17 s y n t h e s i s , so I'm j u s t a s s u m i n g that w a s o n e of his 18 r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s . 19 Q. N o w , y o u ' v e s t a t e d t h a t w h e n a s a m p l e of 20 a c o m p o u n d w a s r e c e i v e d f r om i n d u s t r y , it w a s l o g g e d 21 i n ; b y the ILO. W h a t d o e s l o g g i n g in m e a n ? 22 A. M e r e l y r e c o r d i n g t h e r e c e i p t of a s a m p l e in a 23 log w i t h the n a m e of the r e c i p i e n t , 1437"24 j ; Q. W a s a n u m b e r a s s i g n e d to t h e s a m p l e ? 2 5 A . Yes, and was thereafter known only by that Metcalf 26 1 number . o o . ilT; t w n s t h e n d e n e w i t h t h e s a m p l e ? 3 A . : It w aj5 d e 1 iv `.'red to t h e g r o u p t h a t w o u l d b e 4 i n t e r e s t e d in c h e c k i n g t h e s a m p l e o ut in s o m e w a y or 5 o t h e r . It m a y h a v e b e e n t o x i c i t y , i t m a y h a v e b e e n 6 analytical . 7 Q. W h e n a s a m p l e was r e c e i v e d , w a s a n y 8 r e v i e w of the l i t e r a t u r e u n d e r t a k e n c o n c e r n i n g that 9 sample? 1 0 A . N o t b y t h e l L O . 1 1 Q. No o t h e r l i t e r a t u r e r e v i e w w a s u n d e r t a k e n 1 2 b y 1a n y o t h e r g r o u p at E d g e w o o d ? 1 3 A.i Not by my own knowledge. 1 4 ; Q. In a d d i t i o n to s a m p l e s t h a t w e r e r e c e i v e d 1 5 i rrora i n d u s t r y , w e r e t h e n a m e s of c o m p o u n d s a l s o 16 r e c e i v e d f r o m i n d u s t r y ? \':! ; 17 A ' Yes. 1; 'i. ; 18 ;| M Q. And what were the p r o c e d u r e s -- what 19 p r o c e d u r e s w e r e f o l l o w e d w i t h r e s p e c t to the n a m e s 20 r a t h e r t h a n s a m p l e s ,t h a t w e r e r e c e i v e d ? | ;: 21 a|.:I T h e s e l i s t s ! w e r e r e v i e w e d b y t h e a d v i s o r y 22 c o m m i t t e e t h a t I r e f e r e n c e d p r e v i o u s l y and it w a s up i 2 3 to the m e m b e r s of t h i s g r o u p and the g r o u p as a 2 4 w h o l e to d e t e r m i n e w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s a n y f u r t h e r 2 5 i n t e r e s t in t h a t p a r t i c u l a r t y p e s t r u c t u r e . 1 4 3 ^ 0 Metcalf 27 1 i'! Q . If t h e r e wer.e an i n t e r e s t in t h a t t y p e o f 2 s t r u c t u r e , v;hat w a s t h e n e x t s t e p ? 3 A . T h e n e :< c s t e p w a s to g o b a c k to t h e d o n o r to 4 s ee if t h e r e was a d d i t i o n a l i n f o r m a t i o n a l o n g the 5 l^ines of w h a t e v e r the i n t e r e s t wa s t h a t wa s 6 ind ica ted in the a d v i s o r y c o m m i t t e e a n d / o r t o 7 r e q u e s t a sa m pi e . 8 1 ; Q. When a sample was r equested and then 1 9 r e c e i v e d , w hat was done with that sample? 1 0 A . A f t e r the s a m p l e was n u m b e r e d , it was d e l i v e r e d 1 1 by h a n d to t h e g r o u p t h a t w a s i n t e r e s t e d in c h e c k i n g ;i 1 2 i t 'out. 13 I ; Q. On E x h i b i t 1 1, t h e r e is a s t a t e m e n t t h a t 1 4 in a d d i t i o n to i n d u s t r y , a c a d e m i c l a b s w e r e i n v o l v e d 1 1 5 in: t h e I L O p r o g r a m . Do y o u r e c a l l t h e n a m e s of a n y 1 5 of: t h e a c a d e m i c l a b s t h a t w e r e i n v o l v e d ? 1 7 A..| - N o . :;j | 18 inQ.1 A s i d e from i n d u s t r y and a c a d e m i c labs, do i 1 9 you; r e c a l l a n y o t h e r e n t i t i e s t h a t p a r t i c i p a t e d in 20 t h e : I L O p r o g r a m ? : ij 21 A.! |i It s e e m s to m e a t o n e t i m e t h a t we w e r e -- a n d 22 I d o n ' t r e c a l l w h e t h e r it w a s e v e r c o n s u m m a t e d or 23 not | |of p o s s i b l e or a c t u a l c o o p e r a t i o n w i t h g r o u p s 24 l i k e t h e C a n c e r S c r e e n i n g G r o u p . 2 5 Q . './hat w a s t h e C a n c e r S c r e e n i n g G r o u p ? .Metcalf 28 1 A. At that tine, they- w e r e l o o k i n g for c o m p o u n d s 2 the s a m e w a y as we w e r e and it was felt that the J 3 more types of s t r u c t u r e s that we looked at, the m ore i 4 :l i k e l y s o m e b o d y w o u l d c o m e u p w i t h a g o o d i d e a a n d -- [ : ! j 5 L Q . . E x c u s e me. I d i d n ' t m e a n to i n t e r r u p t . j !! ; il jI 6 .you. I 7 'A.; T h a t ' s o k a y . 3 Q. W h e r e was the C a n c e r S c r e e n i n g G r o u p 9 located? 10 A . ; Some place down here. I don't know. 11 Q . W a s it -- 1 2 A . S o m e p l a c e t o w n in the W a s h i n g t o n a r e a , 1 3 ii'.j : Q. W a s it 'a g o v e r n m e n t g r o u p ? 1 4 A.. It w a s g o v e r n m e n t f u n d e d , y e s . 1 5 1 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l w h e t h e r it w a s c o n n e c t e d 1 5 with the National Cancer Institute? 1 7 A'.; P r o b a b l y . T h i s w a s in t h e e a r l y d a y s o f t h e 1 8 research for c a r c i n o g e n i c type c o m pounds and 19 p:o s s i b l e c u r e s . 20 Q. Did the ILO e v e r r e c e i v e r e s u l t s of 21 cancer s c r e e n i n g s t u d i e s t h a t w e r e d o n e b y t h i s 22 group?. 2 3 A . I don't recall. 24 : . Q. Do you; r e c a l l w h e t h e r t h e C a n c e r 2 5 Screening Croup ever -- strike that. Read my Metcalf 29 1 preceding question. 2 (The r e c o r d is read) 3 Q . Do y o u r e c a l l w n e t h e r the C a n c e r 4 Screening Group ever used independent laboratories 5 to p e r f o r m a n y of t h e i r w o r k ? 5 A. I b e l i e v e t h e y d i d . 7 Q. Do you r e c a l l the n a m e s of a n y of t h o s e 8 laboratories? 9 A . No . 1 0 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l w h e t h e r E d g e w o o d e v e r us e d 1 1 a n y i n d e p e n d e n t l a b o r a t o r i e s to p e r f o r m w o r k for it? 1 2 A. W h a t k i n d of w o r k ? 1 3 Q. S c r e e n i n g s t u d i e s o n c o m p o u n d s t h a t h a d 1 4 been received by the ILO. 1 5 A. N o t c o m p o u n d s s c r e e n e d b y the I L O or n o t 1 6 c o m p o u n d s received by the ILO. That was one of the 1 7 t h i n g s in t h e g e n e r a l o r g a n i z a t i o n , t h a t a l l w o r k on 18 the c o m p o u n d s were done in-house. 1 9 Q. W h a t t y p e of w o r k then was d o n e by the 20 i n d e p e n d e n t l a b o r a t o r i e s for E d g e w o o d ? 21 A. I b e l i e v e t h e y had c o n t r a c t s for s c r e e n i n g 22 s i m i l a r to the t y p e t h a t t o x i c o l o g y or t o x i c i t y 23 screeninggrouphad. 14381 2 4 Q. Do you r e c a l l the n a m e s of a n y of the 2 5 i n d e p e n d e n t l a b o r a t o r i e s that were used by E d g e w o o d Metcalf .i ; 1 ;to p e r f o r m t h a t s c r e e n i n g w o r k ? 30 2 A.: T h a t was not m y b a i l i w i c k , buc it s e e m s to me I 3 iremember the name H a z e l t o n L a b o r a t o r i e s c r o p p i n g up. 4 . Q. Do y o u r e c a l l w h e t h e r B i o n e t i c s R e s e a r c h 5 Laboratories also performed work for Edgewood? 6 MR. T A Y L O R : O b j e c t i o n to for m . 7 A.. I ' m n o t s u r e . 8 MR. GORDON: Miss Reporter, would you 9 please mar k as M e t c a l f Ex h i b i t 3 a d o c u m e n t dated 1 0 A u g u s t 13, 1963 c o n c e r n i n g a test on C o m p o u n d N u m b e r 1 1 C S - 4 0 8 4 9 by B i o n e t i c s R e s e a r c h L a b o r a t o r i e s Inc. 1 2 ( E x h i b i t M e t c a l f - 3 is m a r k e d for 13 Identification) 1 4 i : Q. D r . M e;t c a l f , h a v e y o u s e e n d o c u m e n t s l i k e 15 Exhibit 3 before? 16 . j j! ; I ;' 1 7 ijiij Q. 'l ! 18 .IHi MR. T A Y L O R : O b j e c t i o n to for m . I'll withdraw that. Dr. Metcalf, do you know what Exhibit 3 19 .i.s ? 20 A. : It l o o k s l i k e a s c r e e n r e p o r t o n r a b b i t s . 21 '.| ij Q. Dr. M e t c a l f , I r e f e r you to the n a m e 22 B i o n e t i c s R e s e a r c h L a b o r a t o r i e s in t he u p p e r l e f t 23 hand c o r n e r and ask you w h e t h e r t h a t r e f r e s h e s your 24 r e c o l l e c t i o n as to w h e t h e r B i o n e t i c s p e r f o r m e d 2 5 screening tests for Edgewood. 143 M e tc a 1 f 31 1 A .. I s t i l l c a n ' t be s u r e f r o m m y r e c o l l e c t i o n t h a t 2 B i onetics was a screening l a b o r a t o r y for Edge wood. 3 ; Q. Do y o u have; a n y r e c o l l e c t i o n as to 4 whether Bionetics performed any screening work for .5 t h e C a n c e r S c r e e n i n g G r o u p t h a t y o u p r e v i o u s l y 6 referred to? 7 A. I h a v e no idea. 8a Q. Dr. M e t c a l f , r e f e r r i n g y o u a g a i n to 9 E x h i b i t 1, o n t h a t e x h i b i t in t h e d e s c r i p t i o n o f t h e 1 0 f u n c t i o n s of the ILO is a r e f e r e n c e to F o r t D e t r i c k . 1 1 A. T h a t ' s c o r r e c t . 1 2 Q. W h a t is F o r t D e t r i c k ? 1 3 A. W e l l , Fort D e t r i c k had b e e n a n u m b e r of t h i n g s 1 4 but at that p a r t i c u l a r time, I a s s u m e y o u ' r e 15 r e f e r r i n g to the ;1 9 5 6 , 1 9 6 6 period.; 1 6 Q. T h a t ' s c o r r e c t . 1 7 A.;. T h e y w e r e c a l l e d t h e B i o l o g i c a l L a b o r a t o r i e s , I 1 8 think, at that time, which would indicate that they 1 9 w e r e i n t e r e s t e d in the b i o l o g i c a l a s p e c t s of u s i n g 20 s u b s t a n c e s o t h e r ;t h a n c h e m i c a l c o m p o u n d s as a g e n t s . 21 I'm s p e a k i n g in t h e -- w h a t h a s b e c o m e to be k n o w n 22 in the p r e s s as g e r m w a r f a r e . 23 Q. Did the I L O h a v e a n y o f f i c e s at F o r t 24 D e t r i c k ? 2 5 A . For a period of time, and I d o n ' t k now w h a t Metcalf 32 1 `t h a t p e r i o d w a s , t h e y w - e r e n ' t in o n t h e p r o g r a m in 2 the. e a r l y s t a g e s o f it. W e h a d a m i l i t a r y m a n t h a t 3 `s e r v e d as a g o - b e t w e e n a n d as a r e p r e s e n t a t i v e o f 4 the D e t r i c k l a b o r a t o r i e s on our c o m m i t t e e at 5 :E d g e w o o d . 6 Q. Do you k n o w the n a m e of that p e r s o n from 7 Detrick who served as the g o - b e t w e e n ? 8 A. T h e r e w e r e a n u m b e r w i t h the c h a n g e s in 9 m i l i t a r y . T h e r e w a s o n l y o n e . It h a d ^a v e r y 1 0 peculiar name that I recall. There were others. 1 1 Q. W a s B r a s p e n n i n c k x p e r h a p s o n e of t h e m ? 1 2 A .' V e r y g o o d . B r a s p e n n i n c k x . S o m e b o d y e l s e w i l l 1 3 h a v e to s p e l l iti f o r y o u . I a l w a y s m i s s p e l l e d it. 14 i i Q. Y o u : r e f e r r e d to an a d v i s o r y c o m m i t t e e for 15 t h e I L O . D o - y o u Ir e c a l l w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s a f o r m a l 1 6 name for that committee? 17 ;A 1 I d o n ' t r e c a l l t h e n a m e . In t h e a n s w e r to a 18 p r e v i o u s q u e s t i o n of s i m i l a r n a t u r e , I g a v e a n a m e 19 l i k e tha t : b u t w h a t it was a c t u a l l y c a l l e d at the 20 `t i m e , I d o n ' t k n o w . 21 Q . W h o s e r v e d on t h a t c o m m i t t e e ? 22 A . The chiefs of various branches and d i v isions 2 3 that had the r e s p o n s i b i l i t y of evaluating or 2 4 requesting i nformation or samples from these groups, 2 5 so that w o u l d m e a n the v a r i o u s c h i e f s that had the Metcalf 33 J J _| 1 R e s p o n s i b i l i t y for c a r r y i n g on the c h e m i c a l r e s e a r c h | 2 l a b o r a t o r y p r o g r a m in all a s p e c t s . 3 , Q. Are you familiar with the term Review i 4 P; o i n t 1 O n e C o m m i t t e e ? 5 A. I r e m e m b e r the n a m e b u t I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r its 6 responsibilities. 7 Q. Is the a d v i s o r y c o m m i t t e e t h a t y o u a r e | ; i j 8 r e f e r r i n g to d i f f e r e n t fr o m R e v i e w P o i n t One? 9 A. I just d o n ' t r e c a l l . .' ; i ;i 1 0 ! Q. Cou l d ' y o u t e l l m e as p r e c i s e l y as y o u c a n 1 1 w h a t t h i s a d v i s o r y c o m m i t t e e to the ILO d i d ? ! 1 2 A. As I r e c a l l , the I n d u s t r i a l L i a i s o n S c i e n t i s t s 1 3 did not feel that they were sufficiently 1 4 k n o w l e d g e a b l e to k e e p up w i t h all the i n t i m a t e 1 5 d e t a i l s of the v a r i o u s r e s e a r c h p r o g r a m s g o i n g on in | i! 1 6 the l a b o r a t o r y ; t h e r e f o r e , t h i s g r o u p w a s to add 1 7 e x p e r t i s e to the e v a l u a t i o n and the s e l e c t i o n of . ! 18 c o m p o u n d s t h a t m i g h t be of i n t e r e s t to the C h e m i c a l 1 9 Corps in carrying out its resporisibil ities. 20 i t Q. Do yo u r e c a l l h o w o f t e n this c o m m i t t e e 21 met? 22 A. No . 23 ! ! Q Do yo u r e c a l l w h e t h e r any m i n u t e s w e r e 2 4 kept o f these meetings? 14305 2 5 M R . K A V E M A G H : H a s it b e e n e s t a b 1 is h e d j Metcalf I 34 1 that he was i n t i m a t e l y e n o u g h c o n n e c t e d with that 2 c o m m i t t e e t O ' k n o w t h a t ? It s e e m s he h a s b u t a v a g u e 3 k n o w l e d g e of its e x i s t e n c e . 4 Q. Dr. M e t c a l f , d i d y o u a t t e n d m e e t ing s of 5 this advisory committee Key tea? 5 A . As chief of the program, yes. 7 Q, Do y o u r e c a l l w h e t h e r a n y m i n u t e s w e r e 8 kept.of these meetings? 9 A.: Not specifically. 1 0 Q. W h e r e d i d t h i s a d v i s o r y c o m m i t t e e c o n d u c t 11 its m e e t i n g s ? 1 2 A. I h a v e no r e c o l l e c t i o n . S o m e p l a c e on the p o s t 1 3 t h a t w a s c o n v e n i e n t to all t h e m e m b e r s co nc e r n ed , 1 4 b u t: b e y o n d t h a t , ;I ' m - s u r e t h e y d i d n ' t m e e t in t h e 1 5 same place all the time. 16 . . Q. Dr . M e t c a l f , did you ever v is i t Fort 17 D e t r i c k ? 1 8 A . A time or two. 1 9 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l w h o y o u m e t w i t h ? 2 0 A . :; No r e c o l l e c t i o n . 21 Q . Did y o u k n o w Dr. C h a r l e s M i n a r i k ? \qJ*fwKCJ ; 22 A . : I r e m e m b e r the name now that you have m e n t i o n e d 23 it and he was at F o r t D e t r i c k . T h a t ' s as far as I 2 4 c a n ' tell you anything about Minarik. 2 5 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l w h a t w o r k Dr. M i n a r i k w a s Metcalf w. 1 E n g a g e d in at F o r t D e t r i c k ? 35 2 A . ; No . 3 Q . Dr. M e t c a l f , do you recall w h e t h er the 4 ILO e ver p e r f o r m e d any w o r k in c o n n e c t i o n w i t h a 5 compo and k n o wn as d i o x i n ? 6 MR. KAVENAGH: Would you repeat that 7 please . 8 (The r e c o r d is read) 9 A . No , I d o n ' t r e c a l l . 1 0 Q . Ha v e you ever h e a r d of the S a u n d e r s 11 R e n n e y L i b r a r y ? 1 2 A . : N o t to my r e c o l l e c t i o n . 1 3 ! - Q. Was there a p e r s o n or d e p a r t m e n t at 1 4 Ed g e wo o d that p e r i o d i c a l l y p r e p a r e d a d o c u m e n t 1 5 r e f e r r e d to as New D r u g s and C h e m i c a l E n t i t i e s 1 6 r e p o r t e d in the l i t e r a t u r e ? 1 7 A. j M a y I h a v e t h a t t i t l e a g a i n p l e a s e . 18 ; Q. Sure. New Drugs and Chemical Entities 19 rle.p o r t e d in t h e l i t e r a t u r e . 20 A . Not that I k n o w of. 21 Q. H a v e y o u e v e r h e a r d of s u c h a d o c u m e n t ? 22 A . ; No . 2 3 MR. GORDON: Miss Reporter, would you 2 4 p l e a s e m a r k as M e t c a l f E x h i b i t 4 a t h r e e - p a g e 2 5 document entitled "Unlisted Drugs List." 1 Metcalf. 36 1i ( E x h i b i t Metcalf-'l is m a r k e d for 2 Identification) 3 Q. Dr. M e t c a l f , I r e f e r y o u to P a g e 23 of 4 t h a t l i s t w h i c h is the t h i r d p a g e of the e x h i b i t . 5 Have you ever seen that page before? 6 j-;: M R . KAVENAGH: I object . H e 's already 7 said t hat h e ' s n e v e r h e a r d of t h i s . H o w c o u l d he 8 h a v e s e e n it if he n e v e r h e a r d of i t? 9 A . If I 've e v e r s e e n it, I c e r t a i n l y d o n ' t r e c a l l 10 it . 1 1 Q . H a v i n g r e v i e w e d E x h i b i t 5 - - E x h i b i t 4, 1 2 Dr . M e t c a l f , do you k n o w w h a t t h i s d o c u m e n t is? 1 3 A .! ; A l l I k n o w is w h a t it h a s in t h e t i t l e . I ' v e 1 4 n e v e r s e e n i t b e fo r e . 1 5 i 1 Q. H a v e y o u e v e r s e e n t h i s -- 1 6 A. ; To t h e b e s t io f m y r e c o l l e c t i o n . 17 ! ; !. Q. Have you ever seen this type of d o c u m e n t 18 b e f o r e ? 1 9 A . If it e x i s t e d at E d g e w o o d A r s e n a l , it w o u l d be 20 l o g i c a l t h a t I w o u l d h a v e s e e n it in m y j o b in the 21 I L O , but I do not recall s e e i n g this list of 22 compounds . . . 14318 2 3 Q. -- W e l l , t h i s l i s t a p p e a r s to c o n s i s t of a 2 4 series of c o m p u t e r punch cards with i n f o r m a t i o n for 2 5 ce r t a i n c h e m i c a l c o m p o u n d typed and w r i t t e n on the Metcalf 37 1 b a c k of e a c h c a r d . Do y o u kno.v w h a t t h o s e 2 indi v i d u a l cards that make up the list might be? 3 A . : At o n e t i m e , in the I n d u s t r i a l L i a i s o n O f f i c e , 4 we kept track of c o m p o u n d s by this p r o c e d u r e . I 5 don't recall the format of the cards, but I know 6 that we kept cards. 7 Q. Who p r e p a r e d t h o s e c a r d s -- 8 A. T h e c a r d s w e r e p r e p a r e d b y t he -- l e t me b a c k 9 , up. The i n f o r m a t i o n for the cards was u s u a l l y 10 drafted by one of the s c ientific personnel and the 1 1 c a r d s w e r e typed, in b y th e c l e r i c a l . 1 2 Q. Now, w h e n y o u s a y the i n f o r m a t i o n for the 1 3 cards was prepared by one of the scientific persons, 14 are y o u r e f e r r i n g to the i n d i v i d u a l s y o u p r e v i o u s l y ;!! ! I 15 mentioned which were Captain Nelson, Alan Gelberg, 16 C h a r l e s G r a n i t o , D a v i d R e n a r d and C h a r l e s H o l l y ? 17 :Ai . Yes. 18 Q. W h a t w a s t h e s o u r c e o f t h e i n f o r m a t i o n 19 tha t was p l a c e d on t h o s e c a r d s ? 20 A. ; It c o u l d h a v e b e e n l i t e r a t u r e . It c o u l d h a v e 21 b e e n s o m e t h i n g f u r n i s h e d b y t h e d o n o r . 22 MR. K A V E N A G H : I ' m g o i n g to o b j e c t to 23 thi s a g a i n ; if h e ' s not s e e n thi s , d o e s n ' t k n o w PC 24 a n y t h i n g a b o u t it. N o w y o u ' r e a s k i n g him h o w i 2 5 fits t o g e t h e r l o g i c a l l y , it d o e s n ' t fit l o g i c a l l y Metcalf 38 1 1 1i MR . G O R D O N : He s aid he d o e s n ' t r e c a l l 2 whet h e r or not he's seen i t . 3 1 j' Q Dr . M e t c a l f , r e f e r r i ng y o u to p a g e 23 to 4 the c o m p o u n d d i a g r a m in t h e m i d d l e and l a b e l e d as 5 2,3,7,8 tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin. 5 A . Oh , all right. 7 ; Q. Do you see that? 8 A . Yes 9 | Q - Und e r n e a th t h a t n a m e , t h e r e are two 10 l i t e r a t u r e r e f e r e n c e s , o n e to the J o u r n a l of 11 I n v e s t i g a t i v e D e r m a t o l o g y and the o t h e r to 1 2 D e r m a t o 1 ogica . Do you k n o w w h e r e those r e f e r e n c e s -- 1 3 excuse me, do you know w h e r e k n o w l e d g e of those 'Ij ;; - ' 14 references came from? 1 5 A . I don't know anything about this particular i .i ,: 1 6 . h e e t - o r the i n f o r m a t i o n t h e r e o n . All l e a n do is ; 1 ' j. . ? j i i 17 try to r e c a l l for you w h e r e i n f o r m a t i o n like that 18 w o u l d c o m e f r o m w h e n we m a d e up c a r d s in the 19 Industrial Liaison Office. 20 i.| Q. W e l l , ! t h a t ' s f i n e , if you w o u l d tell me 21 w h e r e i n f o r m a t i o n like that came from when you made 22 ;u p ; t h e c a r d s . 23 A. ! Y e s . W h e n we m a d e up the c a r d s , as I s a i d 24 e a r l i e r , t h a t the i n f o r m a t i o n w o u l d c o m e e i t h e r f r o m 2 5 the l i t e r a t u r e that s o m e b o d y had c h e c k e d out and we Metcalf 39 1 h a d k n o w l e d g e o f , r e p o r t e d to us e i t h e r hv r e p r i n t , 2 p e r h a p s , or s o m e o t h e r w a y , or it c o u l d h a v e b e e n 3 furnished by the donor. 4 Q. W h e n the n a m e of a l i t e r a t u r e r e f e r e n c e 5 was s u p p l i e d e i t h e r by the d o n o r or by s o m e o n e at 6 E d g e w o o d , w a s t h a t l i t e r a t u r e r e v i e w e d in c o n n e c t i o n 7 with the p r e p a r a t i o n of the cards? 8 A. No. 9 Q. R e f e r r i n g you, a g a i n , to p a g e 23, a b o v e 1 0 the d i a g r a m for w h a t a p p e a r s to be 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 1 1 t e t r a c h l o r o d i b e n z o - p - d i o x i n is a r e f e r e n c e to "U o f 1 2 C h i c a g o . " Do you k n o w w h a t t h a t r e f e r e n c e r e f e r s to 1 3 A. N o t o f f h a n d , u n l e s s o n e w o u l d just put the 14 n o r m a l i n t e r p r e t a t i o n on it. 1 5 . i i; Q. W h a t is y o u r n o r m a l i n t e r p r e t a t i o n ? i* 1 6 A|;'! : W e l l , y o u s e e a l l t h e o t h e r U o f f i c e s . Is 17 the r e a U n i v e r s i t y of C h i c a g o ? 18 Q. I b e l i e v e t h e r e is. 19 A . I d o n ' t k n o w . :B u t t h a t ' s t h e w a y if I h a d s e e n 20 t h a t c o l d I w o u l d i n t e r p r e t it in t h e n e w s p a p e r . 2 1 []\ ; Q . Do y o u k n o w w h e t h e r E d g e w o o d h a d a n y 22 s c r e e n i n g c o n t r a c t s or o t h e r a r r a n g e m e n t s w i t h the 2 3 U.nd v e r s i t y o f C h i c a g o c o n c e r n i n g c h e m i c a l c o m p o u n d s ? 24 A . I d o n ' t recall.. 1 2 5 Q. Dr. M e t c a l f , r e f e r r i n g you a g a i n to page M e tc a 1 f 40 1 23 , n e x t t o t h e ci i a g ' r a n - f o r w h a t a p p e a r s t o o e 2 2 , 3 , 7 , 3 t e t r a c h l o r o d i b o n z o - p - d i o x i n , t h e r e is a 3 n o t a t i o n CS 39 3 21. 2o you k n o w w h a t that n o t a t i o n 4 refers to? 5 A I t ' s j u s t a n u m b e r t h a t w o u l d i d e n t i f y in th-e 6 r e c o r d s w h a t t h i s s t r u c t u r e was. In o t h e r w o r d s , 7 t h i s c a r d s e r v e d ;as a r e c o r d , so y ou w o u l d k n o w t h a t 8 t h i s n u m b e r r e f e r r e d to t h i s s t r u c t u r e j u s t l i k e a n y 9 n u m b e r in the s y s t e m in an o r g a n i c l a b o r a t o r y , 1 0 b j. ; 11 i:!| | -` 1 2 ?;i M Q. MR. GORDON: Could I have that read back. (The r e c o r d is re a d ) Do y o u k n o w w h a t C S s t a n d s f o r in t h a t 1 3 notation? 1 4 A.! CS was t h e n u m b e r -- there were several 15 d;i f-f e r e n t n u m b e r i n g s y s t e m s at E d g e w o o d A r s e n a l , o n e 1 6 p:r i:m a r y o n e a n d a CO n u m b e r . T h i s w a s m e r e l y a 1 7 p r e f i x to all n u m b e r s t h a t r e f e r e n c e d the I n d u s t r i a l 18 Liaison Office. ' 19 :| | Q. W h a t was the s i g n i f i c a n c e of a CS 20 d;e s;i g n a t i o n n e x t :to a n u m b e r ? 2 1 A . As I m e n t i o n e d , it was the n o r m a l p r e f i x . 22 There were o t h e r : p r e f i x e s used at E d g ewood Arsenal 23 to d e s i g n a t e c o m p o u n d s that o r i g i n a t e d from o t h e r 2 4 s o u r c e s or to i d e n t i f y o t h e r s t r u c t u r e s . 143^2 2 5 Q . Dr. M e t c a l f , was the d e s i g n a t i o n " CS" an _i Metcalf 41 1 a b b r e v i a t i o n for "Conmereiai Source "? 2 A .! T h a t c o u l d h a v e b e e n h o w i t -- -- I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r J the o r i g i n of it. C o m m e r c i a l s o u r c e could v e r y well 4 have been the o r i g i n of that p re f ix . Sounds logical. 5 M q . Y o u a l s o r e f e r r e d to a p r i m a r y n u m b e r ing 6 s y s t e m at Edgewood.. W h a t was the pr im a ry n u m b e r i n g 7 system? 8 A., I d o n ' t k n o w w h a t t he s i t u a t i o n is on t h a t 9 right now, classification wise. 1 0 L e t me s a y t h i s , t h a t it w a s a n u m b e r 1 1 with a prefix o f ; two letters. 1 2 Q . Do you r e c a l l c h e m i c a l c o m p o u n d s at 1 3 E d g e w o o d that were d e s i g n a t e d EA plus a num b e r ? 1 4 A. Y e s , I've h e a r d of t h a t , I r e m e m b e r that, y es. 1 5 Q. Do y ou r e c a l l w h a t the EA s t o o d f o r ? 1 6 A.; I w a s n ' t a r o u n d when the n u m b e r i n g s y s t e m was 17 o r i g i n a t e d so I'm not s u r e , but - - 18 i ,i Q. Dr. M e t c a l f , r e f e r r i n g y o u to the s e c o n d 19 p a g e o f E x h i b i t 4, y o u ' l l n o t e at t h e t o p o f t h e 20 page a r e f e r e n c e ! t o S a u n d e r s Re n n e y Library. Does 21 t h a t r e f e r e n c e s e r v e in a n y w a y to r e f r e s h y o u r 22 r e c o l l e c t i o n as to w h a t t h a t l i b r a 'r y i s ? 2 3 A.. T h o s e n a m e s h a v e no m e a n i n g to m e . 24 '; Q. W h o is L e s t e r M i l l e r ? 1 A rt r- o 2 5 A . L e s t e r M i l l e r w a s a GI t h a t c a m e to w o r k in the Metcalf 42 i 1 I n d u s t r i a l L i a i s o n O f f i c e one time and a f t e r he 2 f i n i s h e d t h e s e r v i c e he w e n t to w o r k at E d g e w o o d :1 !I ! 'I 3 A r s e n a l , and I b e l i e v e that after he left the j :I 4 I n d u s t r i a l L i a i s o n O f f i c e , I think he was i n v o l v e d 5 inj o n e o f t h e t o x i c o l o g y g r o u p s o r t o x i c i t y 6 screening groups or s o mething like that. It's very 7 vague. 8 Q. Do you r e c a l l d u r i n g w h a t t i m e p e r i o d he 9 w o r k e d in the I L O ? 1 0 A., No r e c o l l e c t i o n . 11 (Recess) 1 2 Q. Dr. M e t c a l f , as c h a i r m a n of the ILO, who 13 did y o u r e p o r t to? 1 4 A . A s I recall now, during the early part of the 1 5 p r o g r a m , I r e p o r t e d to a -- I g u e s s it w o u l d be a i 1 6 d i v i s i o n c h i e f t h a t w a s in c h a r g e of all the ( ;* jI 17 c h e m i c a l w o r k that was g o i n g on. D u r i n g the l a t t e r 18 ;pa:t; t /<. ;.I r e p o r t e d ; to t h e d i r e c t o r o f t h e C h e m i c a l .i 19 R e s e a r c h L a b o r a t o r i e s . 'i 20 : i || Q. Do you r e c a l l d u r i n g the e a r l y p e r i o d of 2 1 y o u r c,ha i r m a n s h i p o f t h e 22 wa a t h a t y o u r e p o r t e d to ? 2 3 A. 1!. Y e s , D r . W i l l i a m H. 24 :j ; ,i Q. Do you recall 2 5 wa s? at: t h a t t i m e ? O M et c a 1 43 1 A .j W e l l , as n e a r l y as I can r e c a l l , he was c h i e f 2 of this c h e m i c a l d i v i s i o n or some such title as that. 3 Q . D u r i n g t h e p e r i o d of t i ine t h a t y o u w e r e 4 r e p o r t i n g to Dr. S u m m e r s o n , w a s t h e r e a n y p a r t i c u l a r 5 part of Edgewood that the ILO was a part of? 6 MR. K A V E N A G H : W h a t are y o u t r y i n g to g e t j I 7 at? Could you rephrase that? i 8 Q. O k a y . L e t m e r e p h r a s e t h a t . 9 W here did the ILO fit into the 1 0 o r g a n i z a t i o n a l s t r u c t u r e at Edgewood? 11 A . As I r e c a l l , in t h o s e v e r y b e g i n n i n g d a y s , we 1 2 were just like a branch or other small unit under 1 3 S u m m e r so n . 14 i Q. And 1a t e r? 15 A . A n d l a t e r I, r e p o r t e d a b o u t , I d o n ' t k n o w , it 1 6 was either one e c h e l o n or two e c h e l o n s up the line 17 ^to; |t h e d i r e c t o r o f t h e l a b o r a t o r y d i r e c t l y r a t h e r 18 t h a n b e i n g , s a y , ;a b r a n c h r e p o r t i n g to a d i v i s i o n 1 9 c h i e f , I w a s a s e p a r a t e u n i t r e p o r t i n g d i r e c t l y to : :j 20 .the l a b o r a t o r y d i r e c t o r . 21 i;i Q. Am I c o r r e c t in s t a t i n g t h a t d u r i n g both 22 t h e e a r l y a n d t h e l a t e r p e r i o d t h a t y o u r e f e r r e d to, 23 the ILO was p a r t of the C h e m i c a l R e s e a r c h 2 4 Laboratories? 143 ' 2 5 A. Yes. I t h i n k that was the t i t l e at that time. Metcalf 44 1 ' `` Q. D u r i n g the later p e r i o d of your 2 c h a i r m a n s h i p of the IDO, do y o u r e c a l l w h o the 3 d i r e c t o r of the C h e m i c a l R e s e a r c h L a b o r a t o r i e s was 4 that you r e p o r t e d to? 5 A . Yes, a Dr. Si lver. 6 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l r e p o r t i n g to Dr. B e r n a r d 7 Jandorf at any time? 8 A . ' Not from the ILO, not from the Industrial 9 Liaison Office. 1 0 Q. W h e n d i d y o u r e p o r t to Dr. J a n d o r f ? 1 1 A. T h a t w a s , l e t ' s s e e , t h a t w a s in t h e p e r i o d 1 2 f r o m 1 9 6 6 to 1 9 7 1 . Y e s , w h e n I w a s c h i e f of the 13 Physical Chemistry Department. 1 4 Q. W a s the P h y s i c a l C h e m i s t r y D e p a r t m e n t a 15 b r a n c h or a d i v i s i o n w i t h i n the C h e m i c a l R e s e a r c h i !; ! 16 Laboratories? i 1 7 ;A.'| L o o k i n g at t h e t i t l e h e r e , t h e y c a l l it a 18 d e p a r t m e n t -- t h e P h y s i c a l C h e m i s t r y D e p a r t m e n t j. 1 19 r e p o r t e d to the c h i e f of C h e m i c a l R e s e a r c h 1i 20 L a b o r a t o r i e s w h o m I b e l i e v e w a s J a n d o r f at t h a t t i m e 21 and a m o n g -- the.re w e r e a n u m b e r of R e s e a r c h 2 2 Laboratories, chemical research being one of them, 2 3 t h a t r e p o r t e d to the d i r e c t o r of t h e R e s e a r c h 24 L a b o r a t o r i e s . LLiO 2 5 Q. On E x h i b i t 1 in t h e d e s c r i p t i o n o f the Me tc a 1 f ! r 45 1 P h y s i c a l C h e m i s t r y D e p a r t m e n t , t h e r.e is a r e f e r e n c e 2 t o ! t h r e e b r a n c h c h i e f s in the P h y s i c a l C h e m i s t r y 3 D e p a r t m e n t . Do you recall the names of those c h i e f s ? 4 A . Yes, I think I can give you their n a m e s . John 5 Callahan . 6 Q. Is t h a t J o h n F. C a l l a h a n ? 7 A. I d o n ' t k n o w w h a t h i s m i d d l e i n i t i a l is. 8 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l w h e t h e r t h e r e w e r e two J o h n 9 C a l l a h a n s at Edgewood?_. 1 0 A. T h a t I do. T h a t I do. 1 1 ' ' Q. D o e s t h a t h e l p r e f r e s h y o u r r e c o l l e c t i o n 1 2 as to w h e t h e r -- 1 3 A. No, I s t i l l d o n ' t k n o w w h a t his m i d d l e i n i t i a l 1 4 is'. 1 5 Q. O k a y . W h o w e r e the o t h e r two? 1 6 A. ; J e r r y G o l d e n s o n and L a w r e n c e B u c k l e s . 1 7 Q. C o u l d 'you s p e l l it for the r e p o r t e r ? 18 A. I b e l i e v e it is B - u - c - k - l - e - s . 1 9 Q. Dr. M e t c a l f , w h e n a n a m e of a n e w 20 c o m p o u n d w a s s u b m i t t e d to t h e ILO,' a C S n u m b e r w a s 21 a s s i g n e d to t h a t C o m p o u n d ; is t h a t c o r r e c t ? 1' 22 A . W o u l d you r e p e a t that for me p l e a s e . 2 3 :! ! (The r e c o r d is read) 2 4 MR. KAVENAGH: That w a s 'asked and q7 2 5 answered sometime ago. Metcalf 46 1 A .; Yes and no. 2 j`;i . i! 3 I; MR. GORDON : What was the previous answer? THE W I T N E S S : Well , that was -- 4 MR. KAVENAGH: His d e s c r i p t i o n of the 5 i n p u t o r i g i n a l l y de; s c r i b e d e x a c t l y w h a t y o u ' r e 5 asking for. 7 Q. D r . M e t c a l f , w h a t d o y o u m e a n b y y e s a n d S no? 9 A.!: W e l l , the p o i n t is t h a t w h e n we r e c e i v e d t h e s e 10 l i s t s of c o m p o u n d s , if we j u s t a d d e d a n e w n u m b e r , 1 1 e v e r y time we got a c o m p o u n d , the file would have 1 2 .bje e n t r e m e n d o u s , so we t r i e d to a s s i g n o n e n u m b e r to 1 3 o n e s t r u c t u r e , so if a l i s t c a m e in a n d we h a d 14 a l r e a d y s e e n the s t r u c t u r e s , we w o u l d try not to 1 5 a s s i g n a n o t h e r n u m b e r to the s a m e s t r u c t u r e we ! ;i ; i : : 16 a l r e a d y had on fi l e . 1 7 ,;I Q. W h e n a CS n u m b e r w a s a s s i g n e d to a 18 p a r t i c u l a r c h e m i c a l s t r u c t u r e , w e r e p e r s o n s o u t s i d e 1 9 the; I L O n o t i f i e d ,at E d g e w o o d . 2 0 A;.; j . O u t s i d e o f E d g e w o o d ? 21 ;;i Q. No, at Edgewood? 22 A. At E d g e w o o d . 23 Q. W e r e p e r s o n s at ILO E d g e w o o d n o t i f i e d 2 4 ;w h e n a n e w c h e m i c a l s t r u c t u r e w a s s u b m i t t e d a n d 2 5 r e c e i v e d a CS n u m b e r at E d g e w o o d ? Jj [C CJ M e tc a 1 f 47 1 A. W e l l , as I r e c a l l the p r o c e d u r e , the CS n u m b e r 2 ;w a s a s s i g n e d to t h e s t r u c t u r e . It w a s c h e c k e d to 3 m a k e s u r e t h a t it h a d n ' t b e e n a s s i g n e d to a n o t h e r 4 s t r u c t u r e and t hen t h a t C S n u m b e r a l o n g w i t h the- 5 s t r u c t u r e and the i n f o r m a t i o n w a s s u b m i t t e d to the !! 3 a d v i s o r y c omm i ttee t h a t I h a v e a l r e a d y m e n t i o n e d , so 7 n a t u r a l l y , the number and the s t r u c t u r e were 8 a s s o c ia ted a t t h a t t i m e . i 9 Q. In w h a t f o r m w a s the s t r u c t u r i n g and the 1 0 n u m b e r i n g s u b m i t t e d to the a d v i s o r y c o m m i t t e e ? 1 1 A . In l i s t s . If I r e c a l l c o r r e c t l y , we put t h e m 1 2 in o r d e r of CS n u m b e r . 1 3 Q. W a s t h e r e a n a m e for t h o s e l i s t s ? 1 4 A. : P r o b a b l y t h e r e wa s , but I h a v e no r e c o l l e c t i o n 1 5 now. 1 5 : | I; i ;; MR. GORDON: Would the reporter please 1 7 mark as Metcalf Exhibit 5 a o n e -page d o c u m e n t 18 e n t i t l e d C o m m e r c i a l S o u r c e S a m p l e R e c o r d Log 19 c o n t a i n i n g CS n u m b e r s for 3 9 3 2 1 t h r o u g h 3 3 9 3 3 0 . 20 ; ! ( M e t c a l f - 5 is m a r k e d for I d e n t i f i c a t i o n ) 21 Q. Dr. M e t c a l f , is E x h i b i t 5 an e x c e r p t f r o m 22 t he l i s t t h a t y ou just r e f e r r e d to? 2 3 A i W o u l d you p l e a s e c l a r i f y as to w h a t l i s t y o u ' r e 24 talking about? We've talked about severa 1 d ifferent 2 5 kinds of lists. 3C, Q Metcalf 48 1 Q. S u r e . Y o u h a v e j u s t s t a t e d t h a t w h e n a 2 new c o m p o u n d name was received from industry and a 3 c o m p o u n d n u m b e r a s s i g n e d to t h a t s t r u c t u r e t h a t a 4 list o f t h e n e w c o m p o u n d s w a s c i r c u l a t e d to t he 5 a d v i s o r y c o m m i t t e e for the ILO. T h e q u e s t i o n is 6 w h e t h e r E x h i b i t 5 was part of the list that was 7 c i r c u l a t e d to t h i s a d v i s o r y c o m m i t t e e . 8 A. : To t h e b e s t of m y r e c o l l e c t i o n and f r o m the 9 kind o f i nformation it contains, I w o u l d n ' t have 1 0 t h o u g h t so . 11 . Q. W h a t is the i n f o r m a t i o n on E x h i b i t 5 1 2 makes you think Exhibit 5 was not part of the 1 i 1 3 t h a t wa s c i r c u l a t e d to th e a d v i s o r y c o m m i t t e e o 14 A . The c o l u m n is i n d i c a t e d as n a m e of s o u r c e and 15 source code number. 16 i Q. Do yo u k n o w w h a t w a s the p u r p o s e of the 17 c o m m e r c i a l s o u r c e s a m p l e r e c o r d l o g ? 18 :tA.|i ; Y e s , it w a s :to r e c o r d t h e CS n u m b e r a n d th e 'i :; 19 '.source and the c l a s s i f i c a t i o n , d a t e r e q u e s t e d and ;:j :i 20 who r e q u e s t e d it. T h i s was for the use of the 21 I n d u s t r i a l L i a i s o n O f f i c e , as I r e c a l l it. 22 ' Q. Do you know w h e t h e r a n y o n e o t h e r than the 2 3 ILO received copies of the c o m m e r c i a l source sample 2 4 record log? 444.^0 2 5 MR. KAVENAGH: C o u n s e l , m a y I i nterrupt Metcalf 49 1 for a n i n u t e ; , I'm sor ry > I m i s s e d the d a t e s , thank 2 yo u . 1 96 3 , I j u s t saw i t 3 A . W o u l d you repeat the q u e s t i o n please . 4 Q. C e r t a i n l y . 5 Do you r e c a l l w h e t h e r a n y o n e o u t s i d e of 6 the ILO received c o p i e s of the c o m m e r c i a l source 7 sample record log? 8 A. As I r e c a l l the s e t u p , t h e r e was no r e a s o n for 9 a n y o n e e l s e o u t s i d e of the I L O to r e c e i v e a c o p y or 1 0 to e v e n l o o k at t h i s s h e e t in the o f f i c e . 11 Q. Did Dr. B e r n a r d M c N a m a r a s e r v e on the 1 2 a d v i s o r y c o m m i t t e e for the I LO ? 1 3 A.: I . t h i n k so. 14 Q. Did W a l t e r S u l t a n s e r v e on t hat a d v iso ry 15 c omm it tee ? 16 A. I b e l i e v e T h e c o m p o s i t i o n of the c o m m i t t e e 17 yar.ied f r o m t h e v e r y b e g i n n i n g to t h e l a s t p a r t t h a t 18 I; a s f a m i l i a r w i t h , a n d w h e n t h e y w e r e o n , t h e y 1 9 were on, yes, the committee, but just when they were 20 on it, I d o n ' t k n o w . 21 Q. B u t to t h e b e s t of y o u r r e c o l l e c t i o n , D r . 2 2 :S:u 1 1 a n d i d s e r v e a t s o m e t i m e o n t h e a d v i s o r y 23 committee? 14 4 0 X 2 4 A;. I t h i n k so o r it c o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e p e r s o n he 25 r e p o r t e d to. I k n o w he w a s i n v o l v e d in c e r t a i n I Metcalf 50 1 t o x i c i t y s c r e e n i n g a n d it w o u l d ha-./e b e e n a n a t u r a l 2 t h i n g for h i m to h a v e b e e n on t n a t c o m m i t tee . 3 Q . Do yo u r e c a l l w h e t h e r Dr . R i c h a r d H o r t o n 4 served on the a d v isory c o m m i t t e e ? 5 A . Yes . He wa s on the c o m m i t t e e . 5 1 i Q. Did Dr . J a n d o r f s e r v e on the a d v i s o r y 7 committee 7 8 A : Yes. 9 ! Q. Did Dr . W i t t e n s e r v e on the a d v i s o r y 10 c o m m i t t e e ? 11 A . Y e s . I ' m p r e t t y s u r e a l l t h o s e p e o p l e d i d . 1 2 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l a n y o n e e l s e w h o s e r v e d on 1 3 the a d v i s o r y c o m m i t t e e other than d o c t o r s M c N a m a r a , 1 4 Sultan, Horton, Witten and Jandorf? 1 5 A:. T h e r e ' s o n l y o n e t h a t s t r i k e s m y m i n d a n d 16 .that's Dr. V a n S i m m . He was on it, but for h o w l o n g , 1 7 I. j u s t c a n ' t g i v e y o u a n y d a t e s . M | ..j j ;' 18 I Q. Did you know Dr. Fritz H o f f m a n ? 1 9 A .;| Yes. 20 | i Q. Do you recall w h e t h e r Dr. H o f f m a n served 21 o n t h e a d v i s o r y c o m m i t t e e ? 144v2 22 A . It w o u l d h a v e b e e n l o g i c a l on the b a s i s of his i i 2 3 p o s i t i o n to ha v e s e r v e d on it, but I j u s t c a n ' t 2 4 recall w h e t h e r he: was a c t u a l l y a mem b e r or not. 25 Q. D u r i n g t h e l a t e 1 9 5 0 ' s to m i d 1 9 6 0 ' s , M e tc a 1 f 51 1 what was Dr. H o f f m a n ' s p o s i t i o n ? i :! 2 hi \ D r . H o f f m a n w a s a s y n t h e t i c o r g a n i c c h e m i s t . 3 W h e t h e r he was h e a d i n g a f o r m a l i z e d g r o u p at that 4 t ime or not, I d o n ' t kno w . He a l w a y s had a few i 5 people, anyway, working with him. 6 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l w h e t h e r a n y r e c o r d s at a l l , 7 whether minutes or other documents, were ever 8 prepared c o n c e r n i n g this a d v i s o r y c o m m i t t e e for the 9 IL0 ? 'f'V' 1 0 A. I d o n ' t b e l i e v e to the b e s t of m y r e c o l l e c t i o n 1 1 minu t e s were prepared of these advisory comm i t t e e 1 2 m e e t i n g s a n d a n y o t h e r r e p o r t s w o u l d be o n l y in 1 3 'terms of n u m b e r s of c o m p o u n d s or n u m b e r s of 1 4 s t r u c t u r e s or s o m e t h i n g like that. 15 ! Q. When a decision was made by the advisory 1 6 c o m m i t t e e as to w h e t h e r or n o t to r e q u e s t a s a m p l e i ; ! 17 b ;|a p a r t i c u l a r c o m p o u n d , h o w is t h a t d e c i s i o n |i 1 8 t r a n s m i t t e d to the I L O ? 1 9 'A.1;! W e l l , a s I r e c a l l t h e p r o c e d u r e , a m e m b e r o f 20 the I n d u s t r i a l L i a i s o n O f f i c e w a s a l w a y s t h e r e and 21 t h e y n a t u r a l l y w o u l d n o t e w h i c h CS n u m b e r s w e r e 22 r e q u e s t e d by a sa m p l e or s o m e b o d y w a n t i n g more 2 3 i n f o r m a t i o n , something of that sort, 24 j Q. Were these reque s t s from the a d v i s o r y 2 5 c o m m i t t e e in w r i t i n g or w e r e t h e y o r a l ? J_* n ^ Metcalf i '; 1 A .! Oral. 52 2 /!! Q . '.-.`h a t s o r t s o f i n f o r m a t i o n c o n c e r n i n g a 3 part i c u l a r chemical c o m pound might be requested by i -i 4 th e a d v i s o r y c o m m i t t e e p r i o r to r e q u e s t i n g the li 5 sample itself? 6 A.!; It a l l d e p e n d e d , as I r e m e m b e r , o n t h e t y p e s o f 7 p r o b l e m s that the i n d i v i d u a l or his g r o u p h a p p e n e d 8 to. :be c o n c e r n e d w i t h a t t h e p r e s e n t t i m e a n d it m a y `| |: 9 vary all over the place. Maybe somebody would want 1 0 a s o l u b i l i t y . S o m e b o d y e l s e m i g h t w a n t h a d it e v e r 11 b e e n c h e c k e d as a c o l o r f o r m e r or as -- w e l l , the 1 2 s k y is the l i m i t ,on w h a t t h e y m i g h t w a n t to k n o w . 13 . Q. When a request for more information was 1 4 from the a d v i s o r y comm ittee by the ILO, 1 5 the I LO go to a t t e m p t to o b t a i n t h a t 1 6 in fjo r m a t i oo n ? ! 1 7 h a d o n l y o n e s o u r c e . It w a s n o t the 18 i 1 i t y o f the o f f i c e to d o l i t e r a t u r e 1 9 searches or things of that nature. They went back 20 t o ,:t h e d o n o r o f t h e i n f o r m a t i o n -- to t h e d o n o r of 21 the; i n f o r m a t i o n . 22 Q. N o w , w h e n the a d v i s o r y c o m m i t t e e 23 r e q u e s t e d a s a m p l e of a p a r t i c u l a r c h e m i c a l c o m p o u n d 2 4 rather than simply more information, what steps were 2 5 taken by the ILO? r'i jK i' Me te a 1 f 53 1 A . : The s a m e k i n d of s-teps as i n f o r m a t i o n ! 2 r e q u e s t i n g t h e d o n o r to s ee if he c o u l d s p a r e a 3 s a m p l e of the c o m p o u n d of interest. 4 Q. D i d it h a p p e n t h a t a s u p p l i e r - - s t r i k e 5 it h a t . 6 Did it h a p p e n t h a t the ILO w a s f r o m t i m e 7 to time u n a b l e to o b t a i n a s am pie of a c o m p o u n d ? 8 a ; Frequently , as I rem ember , frequently. 9 i ' Q. W h a t h a p p e n e d w h e n t h e I L O t wV Pa s 1 0 u n s u c c e s s f u l in an a t t e m p t to o b t a i n a s a m p l e of the 11 c o m p o u n d ? 1 2 A.: We d i d n ' t ge t it. 1 3 Q. W e l l , w e r e a t t e m p t s t h e n m a d e to 1 4 s y n t h e s i z e the c o m p o u n d in-house? 1 5 MR. T A Y L O R : O b j e c t i o n to f o r m . 16 A. N o t t h a t I ' r e c a l l . X d o n ' t b e l i e v e -- I d o n ' t 17 b e l i e v e t h e y a t t e m p t e d the s y n t h e s i s . 18 : ,! Q. W e r e a t t e m p t s m a d e to o b t a i n the s a m p l e 19 f r o m a n o t h e r p o s s i b l e s u p p l i e r ? 20 A. : If t h e r e w e r e two s u p p l i e r s of the s a m e 21 s t r u c t u r e , n a t u r a l l y , you w o u l d try bo t h s o u r c e s . 22 M R . T A Y L O R : M r . G o r d o n , I o b j ec t to the 144G523 v a g u e n e s s o f y o u r q u e s t i o n . T h e r e ' s b e e n no 24 com po und i d e n t i f i e d at t h i s p o i n t and all o f y o u r 2 5 q u e s t i o n s and all of the a n s w e r s c o u l d or c o u l d no t Metcalf 54 v 1 ,bei a p p l i c a b l e to the- c o m p o u n d of i n t e r e s t in t h i s 2 l i t i g a t i o n . To that e x t e n t , n o n e of the q u e s t i o n s 3 h a v e b e e n p r o b i t i v e a n d I ' m g o i n g to r e q u e s t t h a t 4 you identify a specific compound and direct your 5 questions toward that compound. S Q. Dr. M e t c a l f , r e f e r r i n g y o u to E x h i b i t 5, 7 t h e r e is a r e f e r e n c e to CS n u m b e r 3 9 3 2 1 a n d u n d e r 8 the date requested column, the date 2/19/64 and 9 under the requ ester c o l u m n the name Horton. Does 1 0 that i n f o r m a t i o n i n d i c a t e that Dr. H o r t o n made a 11 r e q u e s t for CS No. 3 9 3 2 1 on F e b r u a r y 19, 1 9 6 4 ? 1 2 MR. T A Y L O R : O b j e c t i o n to form. 1 3 Q. Y o u m a y a n s w e r . 1 4 A. W h a t d o e s t h a t m e a n ? 1 5 .I :I i \ IS / j ? MR. GORDON: ' MR. TAYLOR: It m e a n s n o t h i n g . That just means that I am 1 7 o b j e c t i n g to t h e 'f o r m of h i s q u e s t i o n in t h a t 18 i.nstead of a s k i n g yo u a w h a t , w h e n , h o w , w h e r e or 19 w h y ;, q u e s t i o n he is s u g g e s t i n g an a n s w e r b y h i s : i ' ': 20 q u e s t i o n . He m a y not lead you and s h o u l d not lead 21 y o u . 22 ; | Q. Dr . M e t c a 1 f , j u s t so w e ' re c l e a r , w h e n he f 23 m a\k'!eis an objection i a s to form, that is an objection 2 4, ,toI b e r u l e d o n at.: t r i a l a n d it s h o u l d n o t a f f e c t 25 y o u r a n s w e r to th e q u e s t i o n in a n y w a y if y o u - ^ 4 4 Metcalf 56 1 A l l I c a n s a y is t h a t n o r m a l l y if y o u h a v e a C 5 2 n u m b e r , if y o u go b a c k to t h e p r o p e r r e c o r d s , you 3 can d e t e r m i n e what s t r u c t u r e that refe r s to. 4 Q. Do y o u h a v e a n y r e c o l l e c t i o n of a r e q u e s t 5 made by Dr. Horton or the T o x i c i t y S c r e e n i n g Branch 6 in a b o u t F e b r u a r y of 1 9 6 3 for a s a m p l e of 2 , 3 , 7 , 3 7 t e t r a c h l o r o d i b e n z o - p - d i o x in? 8 A. Not the s l i g h t e s t . 9 MR. GORDON: Miss Reporter, would you 1 0 p l e a s e mar k as M e t c a l f E x h i b i t 6 a d o c u m e n t 11 c o n s i s t i n g of two p a g e s , on e a c h p a g e a c a r d for a 12 dioxin compound. 1 3 ( E x h i b i t M e t c a l f - 6 is m a r k e d for 14 Identification) 1 5 Q. Dr. M e t c a l f , h a v e y o u e ver s e e n e i t h e r of 16 these cards before? 17 A. I d o n ' t know. 18 i Q. Are you familiar with cards like these -- 19 M R. K A V E N A G H : C o u n s e l o r , m a y I a s k 20 whait'is the o r i g i n of t h i s a n d the d a t e ? 21 M R . G 0 R'DO N : M r . K a v e n a g h , I d o n o t h a v e 22 a d a t e for t h e s e d o c u m e n t s , b u t b o t h p a g e s of 2 3 E x h i b i t 5 w e r e i n c l u d e d in t h e g o v e r n m e n t ' s 2 4 p r o d u c t i o n of d o c u m e n t s from Edgevood Arsenal 2 5 r e s p o n s i v e to the C a d w a l a d e r s u b p o e n a . Metcalf 55 1 understand the question. Okay? 2 A.Clear. 3 ;i Q. T h a n k you. W o u l d the r e p o r t e r read back 4 thequestion. 5 (The r e c o r d is read) 6 A . ; T o ray b e s t r e c o l l e c t i o n , t h e w a y t h i s o r a 7 similar form was used, yes. 8 Q. Dr, M e t c a l f , b y r e f e r r i n g b a c k to the 9 third page of E x h i b i t 4 and the n o t a t i o n there for 1 0 CS 3 9 3 2 1 , is it p o s s i b l e to d e t e r m i n e w h e c h e r the C S 1 1 n u m b e r c o m p o u n d 3 9 3 2 1 r e f e r r e d to o n E x h i b i t 5 is 1 2 2, 3, 7 , 8 t e t r a c h l o r o d i b e n z o - p - d i o x i n ? 1 3 A. F r o m the CS n u m b e r a l o n e , y o u c o u l d not t e l l - 1 4 w h a t k i n d of c o m p o u n d it r e f e r r e d to. 1 5 Q. W e l l , l o o k i n g at E x h i b i t 4, n e x t to t h e 1 6 d i a g r a m f o r 2, 3 , 7 , 8 t e t r a c h l o r o d i b e n z o - p - d i o x i n 1 7 t h e r e is a n o t a t i o n to CS 3 9 3 2 1 . D o e s t h a t n o t a t i o n 18 i n d i c a t e t h a t t h a t s t r u c t u r e w a s a s s i g n e d CS n u m b e r 19 39321 20 MR. T A Y L O R : O b j e c t i o n to f o r m and the 21 d o c u m e n t s p e a k s for i t s e l f to the e x t e n t t h a t it 22 do es . ^ a. 23 A.; I h a v e no idea of the a c c u r a c y of this s h e e t . 24 i!; The s e c o n d n u m b e r is c o r r e c t . T h e s e 2 5 n u m b e r s w e r e a d d e d in p e n c i l a f t e r it w a s t y p e d . M e tc a 1 f 57 1 M R . R A V E N A G ii-j I w o u l d m o v e t h a t t h e s e 2 s t r i c k e n . T h e r e ' s no d a t e , i d e n t i f i c a t i o n , no 3 s o u r c e . I c o u l d h a v e t y p e d it m y s e l f o n m y o wn 4 t y p e w r i t e r at home. 5 MR. BURKE: But did you? 5 MR. KAVENAGH: Come by tomorrow and I'll 7 show you the copy. 8 Q. L e t me s t a r t o v e r h e r e . 9 Dr. Metcalf, are you familiar with cards 10 l i k e t h e s e t h a t w e r e p r e p a r e d at E d g e w o o d for 11 various chemical compounds? 1 2 A. W e l l , I d o n ' t k n o w t h a t t h i s is a r e p r o d u c t i o n 1 3 of a c a r d . ' A l l I c a n s a y is t h a t s i m i l a r 1 4 inform a t i o n would have been included on the kinds of 1 5 r e c o r d s t h a t w e r e k e p t b y a c a r d s y s t e m in the 1 6 I n d u s t r i a l L i a i s o n O f f i c e . I n o t i c e no CS n u m b e r 1 7 and that m a kes me wonder w h e t h e r or not that this 1 8 w a s 'a C S -- an I n d u s t r i a l L i a i s o n O f f i c e c a r d . 1 9 Q. A r e y o u f a m i l i a r w i t h c o m p o u n d s t r u c t u r e s 20 t h a t w e r e d e s i g n a t e d as C o m p o u n d A or C o m p o u n d B? 21 !` MR. T A Y L O R : O b j e c t i o n to v a g u e n e s s . 22 A. : C o m p o u n d A and C o m p o u n d B is a n o r m a l m e t h o d of 2 3 an o r g a n i c c h e m i s t ' i n i t e m i z i n g in h i s o w n r e c o r d s 2 4 when c o m p o u n d s of similar structure were s y n t h e s i z e d 2 5 r a t h e r t h a n t r y i n g to g i v e it a n e w n u m b e r or a n e w ' ":0 9 - Metcalf 58 1 i d e n t i f i c a t i o n , s o , -in g e n e r a l , I 'm f a m i l i a r w i th 2 that , kind of nomen c l a t u r e . 3 Q. W e r e c h e m i c a l c o m p o u n d c a r d s , three- b y 4 five cards , prepared by the ILO? 'i : 5 A . Yes. 6 Q Who prepared those cards o 7 A. : The c l e r i c a l s t a f f of the I LO . 8 Q. W h a t w a s d o n e w i t h t h o s e c a r d s a f t e r t h e y 9 had been prepared? ** 1 0 A . They formed the basis of our retrieval system 11 a nd s t a y e d in t h e o f f i c e . 1 2 Q. W h a t w a s y o u r -- 1 3 A. U n d e r s e c u r i t y p r o c e d u r e s 1 4 Q. 'What w a s y o u r r e t r i e v a 1 s y s t e m ? 1 5 a .; T h a t is a l o n g d r a w n o u t s t o r y , b u t v e r y 1 6 b r i e fly, f i r s t of a l l , it w a s b a s e d on the m o l e c u l a r 17 s t r u c t u r e w h i c h on t h i s l a t e s t e x h i b i t is the 18 s t r u c t u r e in the u p p e r r i g h t - h a n d c o r n e r , a n d if I 19 r e c a l l c o r r e c t l y , t h a t w a s b a s e d on -- the o r d e r of 20 e l e m e n t s in t h a t s t r u c t u r e w e r e b a s e d on the 21 p r o b a b i l i t y of t h a t a t o m o c c u r r i n g in o r g a n i c 22 s t r u c t u r e s so t h a t the f i r s t n u m b e r w a s the l e a s t 2 3 u s u a l l y f o u n d in an o r g a n i c c o m p o u n d a n d t h e l a s t i 24 w a s the m o s t p r e v a l e n t a m o n g o r g a n i c c o m p o u n d s . . 2 5 T h a t b e c a m e too b u l k y a n d we w e n t to a n o t h e r t y p e of 14410 M e tc a 1 f 59 1 system. We started that, I guess, let's see, we 2 w e n t into a p u n c h c a r d -- to a p u n c h c a r d s y s t e m 3 based on this. Then that beca m e too bulky for the 4 n u m b e r s on h a n d . We w e n t to w h a t is k n o w n as a i 5 Wisswesser line notation system which I will not 6 a t t e m p t to d e s c r i b e . I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r it a n y m e r e , 7 and t h a t a l s o w e n t into a p u n c h c a r d s y s t e m so t h a t 8 we could sort for particular type structures. 9 Q. On the f i r s t p a g e of E x h i b i t 5, Dr. 1 0 M e t c a l f , t h e r e are r e f e r e n c e s to the two a r t i c l e s 11 t h a t w e r e a l s o r e f e r e n c e d o n E x h i b i t 4. Do y o u k n o w 1 2 h o w t h o s e r e f e r e n c e s c a m e to be e n t e r e d on the c a r d 1 3 w h i c h is on the f i r s t p a g e of E x h i b i t 6? 1 4 A . I can only -- 1 5 MR. K A V E N A G H : I w o u l d like to e n t e r a 16 c o n t i n u i n g o b j e c t i o n for r e f e r e n c e to t h i s e x h i b i t 17 for any n u m b e r of r e a s o n s i n c l u d i n g those e x p r e s s e d 18 t h a t , in fact, it is not a d u p l i c a t e of a t h r e e by 19 five c a r d , y o u can tell by the line. S e c o n d l y , yo u 20 d o n ' t k n o w w h e t h e r i t ' s an a m o r p h o u s d o c u m e n t 21 f l o a t i n g in s p a c e w i t h no i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . 22 MR. G O R D O N : W h y d o n ' t you read the 2 3 q u e s t i o n b a c k to the w i t n e s s . t 2 4 M R . T A Y L O R : ' -If I m i g h t a d d o n e f u r t h e r - - 2 5 MR. KAVENAGH: Tha t ' s not legal talk but Metcalf r>0 1 I express myself that way. 2 ;i; MR. T AYLOR: Dr. M e t c a l f says he did not 3 know anything about these cards and did not prepare 4 them, does not have firsthand knowledge about them. 5 A. ; In t h i s s p e c i f i c c a s e , no. 6 Q. As a g e n e r a l m a t t e r , h o w did r e f e r e n c e s 7 c o m e to b e e n t e r e d on t h e c a r d s t h a t w e r e k e p t in 8 the ILO for v a r io u s c o m p o u n d s ? 9 A . To the best of my r e c o l l e c t i o n , the i n f o r m a t i o n 1 0 in t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c es to the l i t e r a t u r e wa s 1 1 furnished by the donor of the structure. 1 2 Q. Do y o u h a v e a n y idea at all as to w h o w a s 1 3 the donor of the str u c t u r e for 2,3,7,8 t e t r a c h 1o r o d i b 4 1 4 A. F r o m m y o w n p e r s o n a l k n o w l e d g e , no. 1 5 M Q. Is t h e r e a n y s o u r c e that, w o u l d t e l l y o u 1 6 where the -- strike that. 17 I Is t h e r e : i n f o r m a t i o n k e p t in the ILO or 18 in ' other f i l e s at E d g e w o o d t h a t w o u l d i n d i c a t e t h e 1 9 source of the i n f o r m a t i o n c o n c e r n i n g 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 - T C C D 20 t!h:at w a s s u p p l i e d ? 21 A.i i I n ^ t h e I n d u s t r i a l L i a i s o n O f f i c e , y e s , y o u i1 :i i i i 22 c,o;u l d f i n d o u t t h e s o u r c e o f w h a t e v e r t h a t n u m b e r 23 was. 24 Q . W h a t f i l e s w o u l d y o u l o o k at to d e t e r m i n e 2 5 the s ource of the 2,3,7,3 j[44^2 Metcalf 61 1 t e t r a c h l o r o d i b e n z o - p - d io x i n c o m p o u n d ? 2 A . That's all the information you have, just the 3 structure? 'A1 Q. R e f e r r i n g y o u b a c k to E x h i b i t 5 w h e r e 5 t h e r e ' s a CS n u m b e r 393 2 1 c o m p o u n d wtiich , a c c o r d i n g 5 to E x h i b i t 4 is 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 t e t r a c h l o r o d i b t n z n - p - d i o x i n -- 7 MR. T A Y L O R : O b j e c t i o n to fo r m . 8 Q. -- h o w w o u l d y o u d e t e r m i n e the s o u r c e of g the information that Edge wood received concerning 10 that compound? 1 1 MR. TAYLOR: Same o b j e c t i o n . 1 2 A. If t h e d i o x i n h a s t h a t C S n u m b e r t h a t y o u h a v e 1 3 i n d i c a t e d tha t it has on t h e s e e x h i b i t s of 39321, 1 4 then the n a m e of the s o u r c e is g i v e n o p p o s i t e the 1 5 n u m b e r and so t h a t w o u l d i n d i c a t e , as the t a b u l a r 1 6 f o r m s h o w s , t h a t it is the s o u r c e of 3 9 3 2 1 . 17 : Q. Dr. Metcalf, would you please review 1 8 E x h i b i t 5 and tell me if t h a t d o c u m e n t i n d i c a t e s to 1 9 you the s o u r c e of the CS n u m b e r 3 9 3 2 1 ? 2 0 A. ; I ' v e l o s t t r a c k of w h i c h o n e a r e y o u r e f e r r i n g 2 1 to now? 2 2 Q. T h i s o n e r i g h t h e r e . n> .3 2 3 M R . T A Y L O R : O b j e c t i o n . T h e d o c urn e n t 2 4 s p e a k s for i t s e l f . W e ' l l a c c e p t t h a t it d o e s , 2 5 A . 'T h e - I t h i n k I ' v e j u s t s t a t e d t h a t if the Me tc a 1 f 62 1 n u m b e r of the c o m p o u n d of i n t e r e s t is 39 3 2 1 , t h e n 2 a c c o r d i n g to t h e d o c u m e n t s s h o w n h e r e , it is t h e 3 U n i v e r s i t y of C h i c ano. I h a v e no m e a n s of k n o w i n g 4 w h e t h e r th i s is c o r r e c t or not. I'm m e r e l y 5 i n t e r p r e t i n g the d o c u m e n t as shown. 5 i : Q. T h a n k y o u . 7! Dr. M e t c a l f , when a s a m p l e of a c h e m i c a l 8 c o m p o u n d was r e q u e s t e d from i n d u s t r y or an a c a d e m i c 9 lab by th e ILO, what was the am o u n t of the sample ** 10 that was requested? 1 1 MR. K A V E N A G H : O b j e c t . T h a t ' s so v a g u e 1 2 that you could get either a c a r l o a d or a t e a s p o o n f u l 1 3 ^depending on the c o m p o u n d itself. 14 -I Q. Let me rephrase the question. 1 5 | Dr. Metcalf, was there a standard amount 15 ;o;f; |a c o m p o u n d t h a t w a s r e q u e s t e d w h e n a r e q u e s t w a s 1 7 m a d e to i n d u s t r y or an a c a d e m i c s o u r c e for a 18 c h e m i c a l c o m p o u n d s a m p l e ? 1 9 A,. I w a s t r y i n g to r e c a l l w h e t h e r o r n o t w e e v e r 20 i n d i c a t e d h o w m u c h we w o u l d l i k e to h a v e a n d t h e 21 a n s w e r to t h a t , to the b e s t o f m y r e c o l l e c t i o n , if 2 2 you j u s t w a n ted it for , s ay / a s i m p l e s c r e e n , t h e n 2 3 we w o u l d ask for a n y a m o u n t m a y b e up to one or two 24 2 5 If y o u w a n t e d it for s o m e t h i n g e l s e , Metcalf 63 1 maybe you could say, well, any amount you could 2 s p a r e up to h a l f a g r a m , b u t g e n e r a l l y the s a m p l e s I 3 c a n s a y , a s I r e c a l l t h e b o t t l e s c o m i n g in , t h e y 4 were s m a l l v i a l s with half an inch or so. S o m e t i m e s 5 y o u c o u l d b a r e l y see it. 6 MR. GORDON: Miss Reporter, would you 7 p l e a s e m a r k for i d e n t i f i c a t i o n as M e t c a l f e x h i b i t 7A 8 t h r o u g h D-4 l e t t e r s d a t e d M a y 19, May 28, J u l y 18 9 a n d J u l y 21, 1 9 6 4 e i t h e r to o r f r o m C h a r l e s E. 1 0 G r a n i to . 11 (Exhibit Metcalf-7A through Metcaif-7D 1 2 are marked for Identification) 1 3 Q. Dr. M e t c a l f , w o u l d you p l e a s e r e v i e w 1 4 these four items of c o r r e s p o n d e n c e and tell me 1 5 whether y o u h a v e e v e r s e e n a c o p y of a n y of these- 16 l e t t e r s p r e v i o u s l y . 17 MR. K A V E N A G H : . W h a t ' s the f o u n d a t i o n for 18 t h e s e p a r t i c u l a r l e t t e r s ? T h e y w e r e n e i t h e r 19 a d d r e s s e d to h i m n o r f r o m h i m a n d i `:'s q u e s t i o n a b l e 20 w h e t h e r he w o u l d see t h i s t y p e of c o r r e s p o n d e n c e in 2 1 the. first instance. 2 2 Ai : Y o u r q u e s t i o n a g a i n p l e a s e . 23 Q. W e l l , I ' l l r e p e a t it in j u s t a m i n u t e , 24 Dr. M e t c a l f . J u s t b r i e f l y to a n s w e r your i n q u i r y , 2 5 M r . K a v e n a g h , t h e f i r s t l e t t e r is f r o m C h a r i s . E . Metcalf 64 I 1 G r a n i t o w h o is l i s t e d as b e i n g in the I n d u s t r i a l 2 L i a i s o n O f f i c e and Dr. M e t c a l f was c h a i r m a n of that 3 o f f i c e . 4 j.;j 5' i -1 ! The question, Dr. Metcalf, was whether 5 you have ever seen a copy of any of these letters 6 before. 7 A . I h a v e n ' t the s l i g h t e s t idea. 3 'i Q. Do y o u r e c a l l a n y e f f o r t s b y t h e I L O to 9 obtain a sample of 2 ,3 ,7 ,8 _ 1 0 t e t r ach 1 o r od ib en z o - p - d iox i n ? 11 A . : No . 1 2 Q. R e f e r r i n g y o u to M e t c a l f E x h i b i t 7A, 1 3 u n d e r Mr. G r a n i t o ' s n a m e , t h e r e is a r e f e r e n c e to 1 4 the o f f i c e of the t e c h n i c a l d i r e c t o r ? What was the 15 office of the t e c h n i c a l d i r e c t o r ? 1 6 A.,: I t ' s t h e s a m e as t h e d i r e c t o r o f t h e C h e m i c a l 1 7 Research Laboratories. There was a name change and 18 t h i s r e f e r r e d to the s a m e p e r s o n , Sy S i l v e r , t h a t I 19 r e f e r r e d :to p r e v i o u s l y . P o o r m e m o r y on my part. 20 'I : Q. H a v e y o u e v e r h e a r d o f K e n n e t h D. C o u p l e 21 w h o s e n a m e is r e f e r r e d to on Exhibit. 78? 22 A . : I d i d n ' t r e c o g n i z e any of the n a m e s that were 23 r e f e r e n c e d in t h e s e p a r t i c u l a r l e t t e r s . 2 4 : Q. 2 5 A'. No H a v e y o u e v e r h e a r d o f G e r h a r d t L. K l a u s ? -f! |0 JL 'O Metcalf 65 1 . K A V E N'A G H-i I b e l i e v e he j u s t a n s w e r e d 2 that. -j> o D o e s E x h i b i t 7C r e f r e s h y o u r r e c o l l e c t i o n 4 t h a t t h e r e is, in f a c t , a U n i v e r s i ty o f C h i c a g o ? 5 A . : Yes. 6 Q. T h a n k y o u . Th i s w o u l d be a g o o d t i m e to 7 break for 1 u nch . 8 (Luncheon recess) 9 AFT ER M0 0 N 5 ESS ION 1 O MR . GORDON : Miss Reporter, would you 1 1 p l e a s e m a r k as M e t c a l f Ex h i b i t S a r e d a c t e d v e r s i o n 1 2 of a r e p o r t on t r i p to E u r o p e b y F r e d e r i c k W. 13 Hoffman dated 5 October, 1959. 1 4 ( E x h i b i t M e t c a l f - 8 is m a r k e d for 15 Identification) 1 6 Q. Dr. M e t c a l f , h a v e y o u e v e r s e e n a c o p y of 17 Exhibit 8 before? 18 A. I w o u l d n ' t k n o w . 19 ! Q. Do you r e c a l l h a v i n g ever r e v i e w e d any 20 t rip r e p o r t s that w e r e p r e p a r e d by Dr. H o f f m a n ? 21 A. ; W e l l , it was -- 22 MR. KAVENAGH: C o u n s e l o r , have you laid 2 3 a n y f o u n d a t i o n for t h i s d o c u m e n t b e i n g i n t r o d u c e d in 2 4 this deposition, what relevance does this report' 2 5 h a v e ? If any. * A A 1*} M e tc a1 f 66 1 MR. G O R D O N : _ I i n t e n d , Mr. K a v e n a g h , to 2 ask a few q u e stions concerning the document which I 3 think will show the relevance. 4 MR. K A V E N A G H : I ' l l m a k e it s u b j e c t to -- 5 MR. GORDON: Would you repeat the last 6 question. 7 (The r e c o r d is r e a d ) 8 A. N o t s p e c i f i c a l l y . 9 Q. Dr. M e t c a l f , r e f e r r i n g y o u to the s e c o n d 1 0 p a g e of E x h i b i t 8, t h e r e w a s a s t a t e m e n t or t h e r e ' s 1 1 a n o t a t i o n that the trip report was prepared by U.S. 1 2 A r m y C C I A . W h a t is the U.S. A r m y C C I A ? 1 3 MR. TAYLOR: Mr. G o r d o n , I ' d like a 1 4 s t a n d i n g o b j e c t i o n to a n y q u e s t i o n c o n c e r n i n g t h i s 15 d o c u m e n t s i n c e Dr. M e t c a l f has t e s t i f y he did not 1 6 p r e p a r e it nor d o e s he k n o w a n y t h i n g a b o u t it nor |' 1 7 has he seen it; t h e r e f o r e , t h e r e ' s a lack of 18 f o u n d a t i o n if he w e r e to t e s t i f y as to this r e p o r t . 19 j j| Q. Do you k n o w w h a t the A r m y C C I A is? 2 0 , A | . I f I ever knew, I don't know now. 21 j Q. Did you ever have any d e a l i n g s with an ;'iI:ji j '! '] 22 o r g a n i z a t i o n n a m e d the U.S. A r m y C h e m i c a l C o r p s i i 23 I n t e l l i g e n c e Agency?: 24 A . I j u s t don't: r e c a l l . 144: oVJ 2 5 o Did you know a Dr. Nathan Gordon? M e tea 1 f 67 1 A . I think I did meet him once. 2 Q. Do yo u r e c a l l w h e n -- 3 A . Or t w i c e . 4 Q Do y o u r e c a l l wh en y o u m e t hi m ? 5 A. No . 6 Q. Do yo u r e c a l l t he s u b j e c t o f y o u r m e e t i n g 7 wi t h Dr . G o r d o n ? 8 a . .; Oh , I d o n ' t k n o w wh e t h e r it w a s a m e e t i n g or 9 not, but the name is -- s t r i k e s a fami liar bel l . 1 O That' s why I say that I think I prebah ly did meet 1 1 him, but I don't recall any specifics. 1 2 Q . Do yo u h a v e any r e c o 1 1 e c 1 1 o n of w h a t his 13 a ff i1 iation was? 1 4 A No . 15 Q. D i d yo u k n o w A l e x a n d e r . B a t l in? 1 6 A. ; It s e e m s to me t h e r e w a s a m i l i t a r y m a n by t h a t 17 n a m e ;s o m e t i m e b a c k i t h e r e b u t in w h a t c o n n e c t i o n , I 18 d o n ' t k n o w . 19 Q. H o w a b o u t A r t F e i s t e r , did y o u k n o w h i m ? 20 A. A g a i n p l e a s e ? 21 Q. A r t F e i s t e r . I 22 A . ' That d o e s n ' t ring a bell, no. 23 Q. D i d y o u k n o w L. A l l e n M o u n t e r ? 2 4 A. It d o e s n ' t r i n g a b e l l . 2 5 Q. Dr. M e t c a l f r e f e r r i n g y o u to the p e n Metcalf 68 X1 u l t i m a t e p a g e o f E x h i b i t 8, t h e r e ' s a d i s t r i b u t i o n 2 list there with a v a r i e t y of p o s i t i o n s d e s i g n a t e d . 3 As of O c t o b e r of 1959, do you recall who 4 the Commanding General for the U .S . Army Chemical 5 Corps Research and Development Command was? 6 A.: Nc . 7 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l w h o w a s the C o m m a n d i n g 8 O f f i c e r of the M a t e r i e l C o m m a n d as of O c t o b e r 1959? 9 A.- M a t e r i e l C o m m a n d , no . ^ 1 O Q. H o w a b o u t the E n g i n e e r i n g C o m m a n d ? 1 1 A . No . i 12 ; Q. Do you k n o w who was the D e p u t y c o m m a n d e r 1 3 for S c i e n t i f i c :A c t i v i t i e s in the C h e m i c a l W a r f a r e 1 4 L a b o r a t o r i e s in O c t o b e r of 1 9 5 9 ? 1 5 A.| D e p u t y c o m m a n d e r , no. 1 6 j-jj M Q. Do y o u k n o w w h o w a s t h e D i r e c t o r of 1 7 R e s e a r c h in t h e C h e m i c a l W a r f a r e L a b o r a t o r i e s in 1 8 O c t o b e r of 1959? 1 9 A No . 20 Q. Do y o u k n o w who the D i r e c t o r of 21 D e v e l o p m e n t was? 22 A.. : No . 23 ! Q. How about the Director of Medical 24 Research? 2 5 No . I Metcalf 59 1 Q T h e r e is a t i t l e g i v e n o n the 2 d i s t r i b u t i o n sheet f o r ' E x h i b i t 8 for Colonel Ba t l i n 3 of A r m y E l e m e n t J o i n t S u p p o r t G r o u p 8745th DU, the 4 P e n t a g o n . D o e s t h a t h e l p to r e f r e s h y our 5 r e c o l l e c t i o n in a n y w a y as to C o l o n e l B a t l i n ' s 6 position? 7 A . ' No . 8 Q. Dr. M e t c a l f , a r e y o u f a m i l i a r w i t h the 9 terms 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T? 1 O MR. KAVENAGH: Excuse me, may I interrupt? 1 1 Are y o u t h r o u g h w i t h E x h i b i t 8 or are you g o i n g to 1 2 r e f e r b a c k to it? 1 3 MR. GORDON: I b e l i e v e I'm through with 14 it . 1 5 MR. K A V E N A G H : I m o v e to s t r i k e it. O n e , 1 S n o " r e l e v a n c e ; two, a b s o l u t e l y no r e l a t i o n s h i p to the 1 7 d i s c u s s i o n . Y o u ' v e n o t in a n y w a y m a d e it a p a r t of 18 h i s " k n o w l e d g e and, o b v i o u s l y , i t ' s an e x t r a n e o u s 19 d o c u m e n t in t e r m s of t h i s e n t i r e d e p o s i t i o n . It h a s 20 no m e a n i n g . 21 MR. G O R D O N : Read back the last q u e s t i o n . 22 (The r e c o r d ' i s read) 23 A I w o u l d n ' t say familiar. I've read the terms 24 in t h e p a p e r . 2 5 Q W h e n d i d y o u r e a d t h o s e t e r m s in the Metcalf 70 1 paper? - 2 A .; It s e e m s to m e i t ' s b e e n w i t h i n t h e l a s t y e a r . 3 !:; Q . W h a t d o y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h e t e r m s 2 , 4 - D 4 and 2 , 4 , 5 - T to r e f e r to? 5 :A .i W e l l , f r o m w h a t I r e c a l l o f t h e p i e c e t h a t I 5 read in the -- I g u e s s it w a s the W a l l S t r e e t 7 J o u r n a l or some s u c h p a p e r , I b e l i e v e t h e y said it . i , 3 was -- t h e y were, c o m p o n e n t s of A g e n t O r a n g e or 9 something like that. 1 0 Q. W h e n did. you f i r s t hear of A g e n t O r a n g e ? 1 1 A. R e a l l y it w o u l d be h a r d to say. I d o n ' t k n o w . 1 2 Q. Had you h e a r d of -- e x c u s e m e ? 1 3 A., I w a s j u s t g o i n g to v o l u n t e e r t h e f a c t t h a t it 1 4 seem-s to me t h a t s o m e t i m e w h i l e I w a s s t i l l e m p l o y e d 1 5 a;t l E d g e w o o d A r s e n a l I h e a r d t h e t e r m . .i 1 5 i.| Q. i Do you recall w h e t h e r you h e a r d of A g e n t 1 7 Orange while you were still c h a i r m a n of the ILO? 1 8 I MR. T A Y L O R : O b j e c t i o n to the f o r m . 1 9 a :. T h a t I c o u l d n ' t s a y . 20 Q. A r e y o u a w a r e o f a n y w o r k c o n c e r n i n g 21 c o m p o u n d s c o n t a i n i n g 2 , 4 - D or 2 , 4 , 5 - T that was 22 u n d e r t a k e n at E d g e w o o d at any time? 2 3 A. ; Not that I k n o w o f . 144,22 2 4 Q. A r e you a w a r e of a n y w o r k c o n c e r n i n g 2 5 A g e n t O r a n g e that was u n d e r t a k e n at E d g e w o o d at any . ii* Metcalf 1 time? 71 2 No t that I am aware o f or remember right now. 3 Q. A r e yo u a w a r e o f a n y w o r k c o n c e r n i n g 4 2 , 4 - D or 2 , 4 , 5-T c o m p o u n d s hat w a s u n d e r t a k e n at 5 Fort D e t r i c k at any time? 5 A . Not of my own per s o n a l k n o w l e d g e , no. 7 Q. W e r e y o u a w a r e of any w o r k or are you 8 aware of any work conce r n i n g Agent Orange that was 9 u n d e r t a k e n at Fort D e t r i c k _at any rime? 1 0 A. W o u l d y o u r e p h r a s e t h a t q u e s t i o n or r e p e a t it 1 1 for me please. 1 2 Q. W h i l e y o u w e r e at E d g e w o o d , w e r e y o u at 13 any time aware that work concerning Agent Orange was 1 4 being c o n d u c t e d at Fort D e t r i c k ? 1 5 MR. KAVENAGH: Have you established there 1 6 w a s s u f f i c i e n t c o m m u n i c a t i o n b e t w e e n the two so th a t 1 7 he would n o r m a l l y know? 18 M R . G O R D O N : Yes . 19 MR. K A V E N A G H : W h e n ? 20 A. T h e b e s t I c a n a n s w e r t h a t is t h a t in the 21 c o u r s e o f m y w o r k , I s h o u l d h a v e h e a r d a b o u t it, b u t 22 w h e t h e r I did or not, I c o u l d n ' t tell you now. 2 3 Q. D i d y o u k n o w Dr. H. M a c F a r l a n d o f 24 Hazelton Laboratories? 2 5 A. I d o n ' t r e c o g n i z e t h a t n a m e , no. 14423 Me tc a 1 f 72 1 g. Did you e v e r v i s i t H a z e l t o n L a b o r a t o r i e s 2 -in- c o n n e c t i o n w i t h a n y o f y o u r a c t i v i t i e s at ; ;i 3 Edgewood? 4 A. It w a s a p o s s i b i l i t y b u t I d o n ' t r e c a l l a n y 5 specific visit. 6 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l w h e t h e r the U n i t e d S t a t e s 7 P u blic H e alth S e r v i c e had any o f f i c e s or p e r s o n n e l 8 l o c a t e d at E d g e w o o d in the 1 9 5 0 ' s ? 9 M R . T A Y L O R : O b j e c t i o n to f o r m . 1 0 a . ; 11 s e e m s to me I r e m e m b e r a P u b l i c H e a l t h 11 o f f i c e r v i s i t i ng t h e l a b o r a t o r i e s f r o m t i m e to t i m e . 1 2 What the time frame was, I don't know. 13 Q. 14 name? Do y o u r e c a l l t h a t P u b l i c H e a l t h o f f i c e r ' s 1 5 A ; It was a R u s s i a n n a m e . I d o n ' t t h i n k it w a s 1 6 a n y t h i n g c o n t i n u o u s or set up on a c o n t i n u a l basis, 1 7 b e c a u s e I j u s t r e m e m b e r this one o f f i c e r s h o w i n g up 18 f r o m t i m e to t i m e a n d t a l k i n g . 1 9 Q. C o u l d the o f f i c e r ' s n a m e h a v e b e e n B o r i s 20 Osherof f? 21 | MR. TAYLOR: Objection. 22 A. ' R i g h t . ! 23 :I , Q. Did you ever have any discussions with 24 Dr.'Osheroff? 14424 25 A. If I r e m e m b e r h i s n a m e , I m u s t h a v e , y e s , y e s . Metcalf 1 Q. 73 Do you re-call w h a t the s u b j e c t of t h o s e 2 discussions was? 3 A . No. 4 Q. Dr. M e t c a l f , do y o u s t i l l h a v e a n y 5 d o c u m e n t s in y o u r p o s s e s s i o n r e l a t i n g to y o u r w o r k 5 at E d g e w o o d ? 7 A. No . 8 MR. G O R D O N : C o u l d we take a two m i n u t e 9 recess . 1 0 (Recess) 11 Q. D r . M e t c a l f , r e f e r r i n g y o u a g a i n b a c k to 1 2 E x h i b i t 8 w h i c h is Dr. H o f f m a n ' s r e p o r t on his t r i p 1 3 to E u r o p e , in t h a t r e p o r t , t h e r e is m e n t i o n of 1 4 s e v e r a l d i f f e r e n t c h e m i c a l c o m p o u n d s as well as a 1 5 d i a g r a m at P a g e 16 of .2,3,7,8 16 t e t r a c h l o r o d i b e n z o - p - d i o x i n . 17 j| Were a n y ; p r o c e d u r e s f o llowed for 18 i n c o r p o r a t i n g i n f o r m a t i o n in t r i p r e p o r t s or o t h e r 19 investigations -- 20 M R . T A Y L O R : O b j e c t i o n to f o r m . 2 1 M R . ,G O R D O N : P l e a s e l e t m e f i n i s h t h e 22 q u e s t i o n , Mr. Taylor. 23 MR. TAYLOR:: T h a t ' s w h y it's v a g u e . My 24 a p o l o g i e s . 25 MR. GOR D O N I'll start over ET 5 Metcalf 74 1 Q . S t r i k : t h a t .2 Were there any procedures for 3 incorporatin';; i n f o r m a t i o n from trip reports and 4 other i n v e s t i g a t i o n s by Edgewood personnel into the 5 files of the Industrial Liaison Office? 6 MR. TAYLOR: Objection. 7 A. The o n l y w a y t h a t , as I remember,- t h a t it c o u l d 3 h a p p e n is t h a t if o n e of o u r p e o p l e , o n e of the 9 p e o p l e in the... I n d u s t r i a l ^ L i a i s o n O f f i c e t o o k a t r i p , 1 0 then the i n f o r m a t i o n that th e y o b t a i n e d w o u l d be 11 i n c o r p o r a t e d , b u t for the o t h e r m e m b e r s of the 1 2 l a b o r a t o r y , if th e y w e re, I d o n ' t r e c a l l . 1 3 Q. -l '! : In 19 5 9 , if the i n f o r m a t i o n c o n c e r n i n g : 1 4 ;2 , 3 , 7 , 8 t e t r a c h l o r o d i b e n z o - p - d i o x i n w h i c h is 1 5 c o n t a i n e d in D r . H o f f m a n ' s r e p o r t h a d b e e n 1 6 t r a n s m i t t e d to the I L O -- 17 MR. K A V E NAGH: O b j e c t . T h a t ' s a b o u t as 18 s p e c u l a t i v e as y o u c a n g e t . 1 9 MR. GORDON: I w i s h 1 you'd let me finish 20 the question. 21 MR. K A V E N A G H : T h e "if" m a r k s it c l e a r l y . 22 MR. GORDON: I u nderstand what you're 2 3 o b j e c t i n g to b u t I s t i l l a p p r e c i a t e if y o u l e t m e p 1 2 4 finish the question. 2 5 Q. -- ha d b e e n t r a n s m i t t e d to the ILO, w o u l d Metcalf 75 1 a n u m b e r h a v e b e e n g i v e n to the d i o x i n c o m p o u n d ? 2 MR. TAYLOR: O b j e c t i o n on the g r o u n d s of 3 speculation. 4 A. If it had b e e n t r a n s m i t t e d , a n y s t r u c t u r e t h a t 5 came into the office was given a number. That was 5 the basis of our reco r d i n g system. 7 MR . K A V E N A G H : T h a t ' s n o t r e s p o n s i v e to 8 the question. 9 10 answer 11 MR. G 0 R D 0 M : I h a v e no p r o b l e m w i t h the "r~- MR . T A Y L O R : A n d d e f i n e it for f u t u r e 1 2 o b j e c t i o n s , I m o v e to s t r i k e at t h i s ti m e a l t h o u g h I 1 3 recognize it's preserved until later. 1 4 MR. GORDON: Let me know when you guys 1 5 are done. 15 MR. K A V E N A G H : A r e you c a t e g o r i z i n g 17 is|tructures w i t h reports: and i n f o r m a t i o n ? 18 MR. G O R D O N : M r . K a v e n a g h , I'm a l m o s t 1 9 d o n e a n d if y o u h a v e a n y q u e s t i o n s c o n c e r n i n g Dr. 20 M e t c a l f ' s t e s t i m o n y , y o u ' l l be a b l e to t a k e it up in 21 afewminutes. 22 MR. K A V E N A G H : No t w i t h his t e s t i m o n y , 23 m o r e a b o u t your q u e s t i o n s . 2 4 MR. GOR D O N : Well, you can move at the 2 5 a p p r o p r i a t e t i m e to' d o w h a t e v e r y o u w a n t . 1 4 4 ? *7 M e tc a1 f 76 1 MR. K A V E N A G H : I think we just m i g h t . 2 MR. GORDON: Fine. 3 g. If a n u m b e r h a d b e e n g i v e n to a d i o x i n 4 c o m p o u n d t r a n s m i t t e d by Dr. H o f f m a n , w o uld t h ere be 5 a prefix for that number? 6 MR. TAYLOR: O b j e c t i o n on the g r o u n d s of 7 speculation. 8 A. It w o u l d h a v e b e e n a s s i g n e d an o r d i n a r y n u m b e r 9 which normally had a prefix. 1 0 Q. W h a t t y p e of p r e f i x w o u l d the n u m b e r h a v e 1 1 had? 1 2 A. W e u s e d -- 1 3 MR. TAYLOR: O b j e c t i o n on the g r o u n d s . o f 14 speculation. 1 5 A. We- u s e d o n l y o n e s e r i e s o f n u m b e r s in the 1 6 Industrial Liaison Office and that was a CS number. 1 7 Q. W e r e t h e r e a n y EA n u m b e r s a s s i g n e d to 18 c o m p o u n d s in t h e I L O ? 19 MR. T A Y L O R : O b j e c t i o n to f o r m . 20 MR. KAVENAGH: Asked and answered some 21 t i m e a g o a l s o . 22 A. Not as far as I know. 2 3 Q. W a s t h e r e a r e p o s i t o r y for c o m p o u n d s t h a t 2 4 had been given EA prefixes rather than CS prefixes? 2 5 MR . T A Y L O R : O b j e c t i o n to ro rrrt. T t 1 2 3 4 5 5 7 -H ?: 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Metcalf assumes that there 'V : . * w e r e~- c o m p o u n d s ! !!' ! !I g i v e n ;EA 77 prefixes. H e ' s a l r e a d y t e s t i f i e d he d o e s n ' t k n o w ,that t h e r e ! were.' . ' ( i1;' ! ; t I ii j i A. If I u n d e r s t a n d you to m e a n that! was t h e r e ;. jM ;i s u p p o s i t o r y , in o t h e r w o r d s , a place, ofi'sto r i n g a iM ; ' c o m p o u n d s t h a t h a d an EA: n u m b e r , there: w a s a t o n e time. 's . Mil N o w , w h a t t h a t p e r i o d o f ;t i m e w a s >o r ,w h a t .! j t i m e t h a t w a s I 'm t a l k i n g a b o u t , I h a v e n o recollection. ! :; Q. W h e r e was that r e p o s i t o r y ? A. On t h e p o s t at E d g e w o o d A r s e n a l . Q. W a s t h e r e a n a m e for t h a t r e p o s i t o r y ? A. It w a s -- if t h e r e w a s a s p e c i f i c n a m e a p p l i e d to it, I d o n ' t r e c a l l w h a t it is. Q. Edgewood Do you recall w h a t b r a n c h or; d i v i s i o n S' w a s in c h a r g e o f m a i n t a i n i n g `t h a t at repository? ' A. It was the g r o u p , I b e l i e v e , t h a t w a s c h a r g e d with organic synthesis. Q . W h o w a s in c h a r g e of t h a t g r o u p ? A . W e l l , it var ie q d e p e n d i n g on the time. At o n e t i m e , Dr . W i t t e n wa s in c h a r g e . I t h i n k at a n o t h e r t i m e , I b e 1 i e v e , Dr . H o f f m a n w a s in c h a rg e . T h o s e a r e the o n l y two n a m e s t h a t s e e m to c l i c k in t h a t frame of q u e s t i o n rr^Inrulli ^ ^ ,,in: ~ . i u --- - 9 $Q Metcalf "78 1 MR. G O R D O N : -.Miss R e p o r t e r , would you 2 p l e a s e m a r k as M e t c a l f E x h i b i t 9 the l e t t e r from 3 R i c h a r d K r e i g e r to D a v i d R e n a r d d a t e d S e p t e m b e r 17 , 4 ;1 9 7 9 a n d a m e m o f r o m D a v i d R e n a r d to R i c h a r d K r e i g e r 5 d a t e d A u g u s t 28, 19 3 8 . 6 ( E x h i b i t M e t c a l f - 9 is m a r k e d for 7 Identification) 8 Q. Dr. M e t c a l f , I b e l i e v e I a s k e d yo u 9 p r e v i o u s l y if y o u k n e w a Mr. R i c h a r d K r e i g e r a n d I 1 0 b e l i e v e you r a n s w e r was tha t you did not r e c a l l ; is 1 1 that correct? 1 2 A. T h a t is c o r r e c t . 13 , . Q. D o e s E x h i b i t 9 h e l p to r e f r e s h y o u r 1A r e c o l l e c t i o n as to who Mr. K r e i g e r was ? ii !i 1 5 A . No, it doesn't.. 1 6 ; Q. R e f e r r i n g y o u to the u p p e r l e f t - h a n d 17 c o r n e r of p a g e 2 iof E x h i b i t 9, d o e s t h a t r e f r e s h 1 8 y o u r r e c o l l e c t i o n w h e t h e r Mr. K r e i g e r w a s in c h a r g e 19 o f . t h e I n d u s t r i a l L i a i s o n O f f i c e at Fort D e t r i c k 20 MR. T A Y L O R ; O b j e c t i o n to f o r m . 21 MR. K A V E N A G H : N o t o n l y to t h a t . I 22 b e l i e v e he h a s re5;t i r e d s o m e t i m e p r i o r to t h a t d a t e , 2 3 U nless you can es t a b l i s h he's m a i n t a i n e d d i r e c t 2 4 c o n t a c t , he wou l d have no k n o w l e d g e of this or2 5 Krei g e r or even the e x i s t e n c e of the arsenal. Metcalf :. ji;'|:' 79 1 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l t h e q u e s t i o n ? !' ! 2 A . I recall the question. I j'M i ,.i:: 3 F r o m the t i t l e s h o w n h e r e , it a p p e a r s 4 t h a t h e w a s a m e m b e r of! an I nd u s t r i a l| :llia i so n O f f i c e j! ; );. i 5 of the C r o p s D i v i s i o n , but as far as .recalling Mr. 6 K r e i g e r , I h a v e no r e c o l l e c t i o n o f . h i m . h i' i: 7 Q. Dr. M e t c a l f , ; r e f e r r i n g youi,tb' the l i s t of (. 8 c o m p o u n d n u m b e r s o n P a g e 2 o f E x h i b i t :;9 ;, t h e r e a r e 9 c e r t a i n p r e f i x e s FDM. Do y o u k n o w what; the FDM was 10 anabbreviationfor? j 1 1 MR. T A Y L O R : I ' l l h a v e to o b j e c t to a n y 1 2 testimony concerning this document since he's 1 3 n e i t h e r the a u t h o r and he's t e s t i f y i n g ;he has not 14 seen this document before. 1 5 A. No, I am not a c q u a i n t e d w i t h the i n i t i a l s or 16 t h e p r e f i x F D M . 1 7 Q. R e f e r r i n g y o u to the f i r s t jpage of 18 Exhibit. 9 in w h i c h there; is a s t a t e m e n t " E n c l o s e d i 19 please find the screening data on compounds s u pplied 20 by y o u r g r o u p for our p r o g r a m . " W h a t kind of 2 1 g r o u n d s w e r e s u p p l i e d by the E d g e w o o d ILO to For t 22 D e t r i c k ? j; i 23 A. As I m e n t i o n e d e a r l i e r , t h e r e w a s a 24 r e p r e s e n t a t i v e m o s t of t h e t i m e on t h e a d v i s o r y 2 5 committee from Fort Detrick and when they saw nr' .1 ip-,*rJ|l . .i:x:_ Metcalf SO 1 s t r u c t u r e s t h a t t h e y w o u l d l i k e to t e s t , we w o u l d 2 r e q u e s t then the same way as we w o uld from s o m e o n e 3 from Edgewood Arsenal . 4 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l t h e n a m e o f t h e F o r t .. 5 D e t r i c k r e p r e s e n t a t i v e on the a d v i s o r y c o m m i t t e e for 6 the ILO ? 7 .A . T h e o n l y n a m e I r e c a l l in c o n n e c t i o n w i t h t h e i r 3 o p e r a t i o n is the o n e we m e n t i o n e d t h i s m o r n i n g , 9 B r a s p e n a in i c k x . 10 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l w h e t h e r Dr . M i n a r ik 1 1 se rved on the a d v i s o r y c o m m i t t e e for the ILO 1 2 A.. D r . M i n a r i k ' s n a m e , I h a d a r a t h e r g o o d i 13 p o s i t i o n o v e r t h e r e . He c o u l d have, but I d o n ' t 1 4 recall w h e t h e r he a c t u a l l y s e r v e d on the c o m m i t t e e 1 5 or not. It w o u l d n ' t h a v e b e e n u n l i k e l y f r o m w h a t I 16 r e m e m b e r of h i s p o s i t i o n . 17 Q. Dr. M e t c a l f , t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . I h a v e 18 no"; f u r t h e r q u e s t i o n s a t t h i s t i m e . 19 MR. C A V A N A U G H : I h a v e no q u e s t i o n s . 20 C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N BY MR. W H I T E : 21 Q. G o o d a f t e r n o o n , D o c t o r . M y n a m e is A l a n 22 W h i t e . I h a v e a f e w q u e s t i o n s I'd like to ask you. 2 3 Are you familiar with the term phenoxy herbic ide? 24 A. P h e n o x y -- 2 5 Q. P h e n o x y h e r b i c i d e . w n o n n n H cniin<a!!i M e tc a 1 f 81 1 A. No. t Wt ;;; \1 '; 2 Q. A r e y o u f a m i l i a r w i t h the.'fact that the ' ";r;' 1 \''; 3 m i l i t a r y w a s c o n d u c t i n g a d e f o l i a t i o n j o p e r a t i o n in 4 S o u t h V i e t n a m d u r i n g w h a t ' s b e e n known- as t h e w a r in 5 South Vie tnam? \ v v\* 5 MR. KAVENAGH: Will you repeat that 1 7 questionplease. t 8 Q. W e r e you f a m i l i a r w i t h the fact that the 9 m i l i t a r y w a s c o n d u c t i n g a d e f o l i a t i o n c a m p a i g n in 1 0 S o u t h V i e t n a m or S o u t h e a s t - A s i a d u r i n g th e w a r in 11 Vietnam. 1 2 MR. KAVENAGH: Are you talking about his 13 r e c o l l e c t i o n or the t i m e in w h i c h t h e y w e r e d o i n g it? 1 4 Q. Do you u n d e r s t a n d the q u e s t i o n ? ' 1 5 A . I t h i n k so. Tiie o n l y w a y I k n e w a b o u t , it w a s 16 w h a t I r e a d in the n e w s p a p e r s . . .... - "" 17 Q. Do y o u r ec.a 1 lH'Wh'en' y o u b e c a m e a w a r e o f 18 t h a t ? 1 9 A. H e a v e n o n l y k n o w s , no. 20 Q. Do yo u k n o w if y o u w e r e a w a r e of it at 21 the t i m e t h a t the V i e t n a m w a s w a s g o i n g on - 22 MR. TAYLOR: O b j e c t i o n , v a g u e n e s s . 2 3 Q. -- to the U n i t e d S t a t e s m i l i t a r y 24 i n v o l v e m e n t in V i e t n a m ? 2 5 MR. TAYLOR: Same o b j e c t i o n . w cga and spinelli certified shorthand reooH' :M e t c a l f ; 1 Y. MR. KAVENAGH-: Which began when? 82 2 :A . I j u s t d o n ' t r e c a l l in t e r m s o f t h o s e g e n e r a l 3 \statements. 4 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l if a n y o n e at F o r t D e t r i c k 5 or a n y g r o u p at F o r t D e t r i c k w a s i n v o l v e d in 5 e x p e r i m e n t a t i o n on h e r b i c i d e s ? 7 MR. T A Y L O R : O b j e c t i o n to form. 8 A. Y e s , I k n e w t h a t t h e y had a h e r b i c i d e p r o g r a m 9 going on. 1 0 Q. W o u l d that ha v e be e n the C r o p s D i v i s i o n ? 1 1 MR. T A Y L O R : O b j e c t i o n to form.! 1 2 A. I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r the n a m e , but I t h i n k t h e y had ! 1 3 s o m e g r o u p o ver t h e r e i n v o l v e d in that. 1 4 Q. W h e n you w e r e a w a r e of the fact t h a t t h e y 1 5 h a d a g r o u p at F o r t D e t r i c k t h a t w a s i n v o l v e d in i 1 6 h'e r b i c i d a e x p e r i m e n t a t i o n , w a s t h a t w h i l e y o u w e r e 17 in' the I n d u s t r i a l L i a i s o n O f f i c e ? 18 A . Y e s . 19 i Q. Do y o u r e c a l l w h a t t h e y w e r e d o i n g in 20 t e r m s of h e r b i c i d e e x p e r i m e n t a t i o n ? 21 A . N o . 22 ! : : Q . Do y o u r e c a l l if the g r o u p at F o r t 23 D e t r i c k r e q u e s t e d y o u or a n y o n e in y o u r u n i t to 24 o b t a i n c e r t a i n s a m p l e s of h e r b i c i d e s for 4 a &o & 25 e x p e r i m e n t a t i o n ? M e tc a 1 f 83 1 iI'' i1. . A. All I r e m e m b e r is t h a t D e t r i c k r e q u e s ted j j-.j 2 s a m p l e s f r o m t i m e to t i m e . I d o n ' t r ec all I:; i j'j 3 s p e c i f i c a l l y whether they were for herbicide i' M ; 4 e x p e r i m e n t a t i o n or not. 5 Q . B a s e d on yo u r k n o w l e d g e of! th o p e r a t i o n s ! IN :" 6 of the ILO and the o p e r a t i o n s of Fort !D e t r i c k and j : '; 7 E d g e w o o d A r s e n a l , if the p e o p l e at F o r t : D e t r i c k who .j (l. !' 8 were conducting experimentation on'herbicides wanted 9 to o b t a i n c e r t a i n h e r b i c i d e s , h o w w o u l d ! t h e y go 10 about doing that? ! 11 M R . T A Y L O R : O b j e c t i o n to f o r m . 1 2 MR. K A V E N A G H : Y e s . T h e p r e s u m p t i o n is 13 he's t h o r o u g h l y familiar with the o p e r a t i o n s 1 4 o r g a n i z a t i o n at Fort Detrick and that has not been 15 established. jV i : 15 Q. Let m e r e p h r a s e the q u e s t i o n j : 1 7 If t h e p e o p l e at F o r t D e t r l c k iwanted 1 8 s a m p l e s of h e r b i c i d e s , do you know how'tihey would go 19 a b o u t o b t a i n i n g it? > 20 A. W e l l , if t h e y h a d s e e n the s t r u c t u r e on o n e of 21 o u r C S l i s t s b y t h e i r r e p r e s e n t a t i v e a t |one of t h e 2 2 a d v i s o r y c o m m i t t e e m e e t i n g s , then he w o u l d have 2 3 r e q u e s t e d us to s e e if we c o u l d g e t a s a m p l e for h i m . 2 4 Q. If t h e y h a d r e q u e s t e d it, if t h e p e o p l e 2 5 at Fort Det r i c k that were c o n d u c t i n g e x p e r i m e n t s on \a /--i r - 'i A .iu .- i - Metcalf '84 1 h e r b i c i d e s had seen some c h e m i c a l and had r e q u e s t e d 2 it f r o m y o u , w o u l d I L O h a v e K e p t a r e c o r d of t h a t 3 request? 4 A. J u s t l i k e we w o u l d e v e r y o t h e r c o m p o u n d and so 5 fp r th , y es . 6 Q. I f ' y o u , in f a c t , o b t a i n e d t h a t c h e m i c a l 7 c o m p o u n d in r e s p o n s e to t h a t r e q u e s t f r o m i n d u s t r y , 8 w o uld t h e r e h a v e b een a record of h a v i n g o b t a i n e d 9 tha t c h e m i c a l and s e n d i n g it to Fort D e t r i c k ? 1 0 A. In the n o r m a l c o u r s e of o p e r a t i o n s , yes. 11 Q. If t h e p e o p l e t h a t w e r e c o n d u c t i n g 1 2 h e r b i c i d e e x p e r i m e n t a t i o n s at Fort D e t r i c k w a nted a 1 3 continuous supply, say, for instance, they had used 1 4 i t .up a n d w a n t e d ; m o r e , do y o u k n o w h o w t h e y w o u l d 1 5 h a v e g o n e abo.ut. o b t a i n i n g m o r e ? _ ij'i! ! ; 1 ;;,! "'jV ' 16 A . . I.can't answer your specific question because I 17 ,do;n't - r e m e m b e r , ;b u t ;a 11 I c a n r e m e m b e r is 18 i g e n e r a l i t i e s h e r e . The n o r m a l c o u r s e is t h a t we 1 9 w o u l d h a v e w r i t t e n b a c k to see if we c o u l d o b t a i n 20 f r o m t h e :d o n o r t h e l a r g e r q u a n t i t y t h a t o u r 21 evaluator w o u l d w a n t to l o o k at. 22 ;: W e w o u l d h a v e t r i e d to h e l p , b u t y o u 23 doni't k n o w w h a t the a n s w e r w o u l d be. 1443.G 24 Q. I g u e s s w h a t I'm a s k i n g is in the n o r m a l 25 c o u r s e of b u s i n e s s b e t w e e n y o u and the p e o p l e at Metcalf ' :,|;j 85 1 Fort Detrick that wouldjhave been conducting 2 experiments, would they;have gone through your i j( 3 o f f i c e , I L O , to g e t t h e is a m p l e s or. w o u l d t h e y ,h a v e ! i: i !: 4 g o n e d i r e c t l y t h e m s e l v e s , if you knowj the a n s w e r ? ' i ! 5 A. T h e y c o u l d n ' t h a v e : g o n e . d i r e c t l y ! b e c a u s e t h e y I j ' ` j`1 6 w o u l d n ' t h a v e k n o w n the;s o u r c e . M i!: 7 Q. I'd l i k e to t u r n for a m i n u t e . t o y o u r 8 office's relations with industry. What;type of j1 j 9 c o n t a c t s d i d y o u m a i n t a i n w i t h i n d u s t r y : ; i n o r d e r to .>*5 -T . VP ; 1 O o b t a i n t h e s e n e w c h e m i c a l s a m p l e s o r new,, s a m p l e s ? 1 1 A. W e l l , as g o o d as we c o u l d . It w a s i.a 1 2 r e l a t i o n s h i p that had to be s t a r t e d s l o w l y and b u i l d 1 3 up to the p o i n t w h e r e the c o m p a n i e s w o u l d t r u s t the 14 laboratories with their proprietary information and 1 5 so it was a s l o w l y d e v e l o p i n g t r u s t b e t w e e n the two 1 6 c o o p e r a t i n g l a b o r a t o r i e s , and so we did . e v e r y t h i n g 1 7 we c o u l d to t r y to k e e p t h i s r e l a t i o n s h i p on a v e r y 18 g o o d a n d c o n g e n i a l b a s i s . T h i s w o u l d .mean t r i p s 1 9 f r o m t i m e to t i m e and l e t t e r s a n d m a k i n g s u r e t h a t 20 e v a l u a t i o n s g o t b a c k co t h e c o m p a n y of t he c o m p o u n d s 21 t h e y -- s a m p l e s of w h i c h t h e y h a d s u b m i t t e d . T h i s 22 sortofthing. 2 3 Q. W h e n y o u s a i d p r o p r i e t a r y i n f o r m a t i o n , 2 4 what are you referring to? 2 5 * - T h a t w h i c h a c o m p a n y d e e m s to b e n o t fo r ^ '"37 /-*Ob tfirs r-- ^ - Metcalf ' v; 1 general dispensation. 86 2 ; ;! Q . Company secrets then? 3 A.i C o m p a n y s e c r e t s w o u l d be a n o t h e r n a m e f o r it, 4 yes . ;i 5 ;: :j Q. Did you deal with industry that 6 manufactured products other than chemicals? i 7 :A .: It s e e m s to m e I r e c a l l a f e w t i m e s w h e r e i 8 s o m e b o d y had b e e n t r y i n g to fin d a m a t e r i a l w i t h 9 certain c h ar acteristics, what area, what use, I 1 0 - w o u l d n ' t r e c a l l n o w t h a t we w r o t e a few l e t t e r s to 11 t h i s c o m p a n y or t h a t . 1 2 M (I Q. W o u l d it be f a i r to s a y t h a t the m a j o r i t y 13 of y o u r d e a l i n g s w i t h i n d u s t r y w e r e w i t h the 14 c h e m i c a l i n d u s t r y ? 1 5 A . With the chemical and pharmac e u t i c a l industry, i ;I 16 ye s . .i : j 1 7 Q. Did you yourself have personal contacts 18 with the various chemical industries? 19 A . With some, yes. 20 M Q. Do y o u 1 r e c a l l w i t h w h i c h o n e s ? 21 A . Oh, n o , no. ; If y o u h a v e a n y b o d y in p a r t i c u l a r 22 in m i n d , I m i g h t h a v e v i s i t e d , but the c h a n c e s of me i III 2 3 r e m e m b e r i n g a s p e c i f i c i n s t a n c e is v e r y s l i g h t . 24 Q. W o u l d you y o u r s e l f h a v e b e e n p e r s o n a l l y 2 5 aware of every request that came from eithe $ Metcalf ''! ' h ! 87 h j:; 1 D e t r i c k or E d g e w o o d A r s e n a l f o r obtai;rii;ng a c e r t a i n 2 chemical compound? !: ! 3 A . No . 4 Q. M i e n y o u b e c a m e d i r e c to r 'o-f |lLO , w o u l d ` `i j 5 y o u s a y t h a t t h e g o o d m a j o r i t y of you;r j':' 6 responsibilities were administ r a t i v e ? 1 ; 7 A. Y e s . 8 Q. And w o u l d the p e o p l e r e s p o n s i b l e for the 9 nuts and bolts of obtaining certain chemical 1 0 c o m p o u n d s , w o u l d t h a t h a v e b e e n 1d o n e b'ydthe p e o p l e 11 und e r yo u? 1 2 A. W e l l , as I i n d i c a t e d e a r l i e r , the p r o g r a m g r e w V 1 3 f r o m m e a n d o n e s e c r e t a r y to a fa i rl y; ' r e a s o n a b l e 1 4 o r g a n i z a t i o n for this kind of work, so at the *i `r ! 1 5 b e g i n n i n g n a t u r a l l y :I w a s d o i n g e v e r y t h i n g . A t t h e ! [' i 1 6 end, it was p r i m a r i l y a d m i n i s t r a t i v e , ; w r i t i n g 1 7 l e t t e r s , t a l k i n g to p e o p l e , et c e t e r a . j. i 1 8 Q W hat time frame would you c h a r a c t e r i z e as 1 9 the end, as you just used that w o r d ? 20 A . As - - 2 1 Q . As the end, what time frame would you 22 c h a r a c t e r i ze as the end w h e r e y o u m o v e d ; f r o m the 2 3 p o i n t o f b e i n g i n v o l v e d in t h e d a i l y o p e r a t i o n s to 2 4 b e c o m i n g more of the admini strator i n d ividual that ? 5 w r o t e the l e t t e r s o r d e a l t w i t h i n d u s t r y in t h a t 14489 i Me te a 1 f 83 1 fashion? 2 A.i I w o u l d h a v e to k n o w h o w t h e p e r s o n n e l c a m e 3 into the office and I don't recall just how often 4 t h e y w e r e - - I w o u l d s a y j u s t to p i c k a f i g u r e o u t ! 'i 5 of a hat, maybe five years from the beginning. 5 '| : Q. The p e r i o d 1961 to 19 56? 7 A. W a s m o r e a d m i n i s t r a t i v e than that p r i o r to 19 -- 8 well, h a l f w a y back, whate v e r the years were. 9 I Q. D o e s th e t e r m 2 , 4 - D , if I t o l d y o u t h a t : .' -V' v .. 1O term meant 2,4-dich1orophenoxyacetic acid, would 11 t h a t t e r m be m o r e f a m i l i a r to y o u t h a n 2 , 4 - D ? 1 2 A.. W e l l , if y o u h a d a s k e d m e w h a t 2 , 4 - D s t o o d f o r , I 1 3 :I . c o u l d n ' t h a v e t o l d y o u . 14 | ;| Q. And 2,4,5-trichlorophenoxyacetic acid, 1 5 ,wo,uld t h a t t e r m b e m o r e f a m i l i a r to y o u ? 16 i'A!.:l i Y e s . ::i -I ; 17 Q. In wha t r e s p e c t ? 18 Aj.| Y e s , in t h a t as an o r g a n i c c h e m i s t I w o u l d 1 9 w r i t e the s t r u c t u r e f r o m the n a m e , so it w o u l d g i v e 20 me a p i c t u r e , b u t b e i n g a n y m o r e f a m i l i a r o t h e r w i s e , 21 no . .:I : 22 '-j Q. T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h , D o c t o r , I h a v e no 23 f u r t h e r q u e s t i o n s . 24 C R O S S -E XAM I N A T I O N BY MR T Y R R E L L : 2 5 Q. Dr. M e t c a l f , m y n a m e is J a m e s T y r r e l l . I i Metcalf M i: 89 .: i : 1 r e p r e s e n t t h e Mo n s a a t o .j_Co n pa n y a n d I h a v e v e r y f e w 2 questions for you this afternoon. j| 3 A . Good 4 ..Q. D o c t o r , w e ' v e t a l k e d * about! j;tw o s e p a r a t e 5 n u m b e r i n g s y s t e m s t h a t w e r e :used at Edg.ewood A r s e n a l i j i: 5 d u r i n g t h e p e r i o d y o u w e r e in t h e I h d jus t r i a l L i a i s o n 7 Office, one was a n u m b e r i n g system wi'thhcs prefixes ; 8 is t h a t c o r r e c t ? 9 A. . :Y e s . 'i:;: I !: !*; 1 0 Q . T h e r e w a s 'a l s o a n u m b e r i n g ;s y s t e m t h a t 1 1 used EA prefixes. ''h 1 2 F o r g i v e m e if I ' m g o i n g o v e !r!'old g r o u n d , 1 3 w a s it y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t EA h a d :<a! m e an i ng to 1 4 it? 1 5 A. W e l l , y e s , a n d I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r e v e r s e e i n g in 1 6 w r i t i n g w h a t it s t o o d for. 1 7 Q. W h a t w a s y o u r i m p r e s s i o n of w h a t it s t o o d 18 for? 1 9 A. I aJwciys t h o u g h t it m e a n t E d g e w o o d . A r s e n a l but 20 I c o u l d n ' t g u a r a n t e e that. i :: 2 1 Q. W a s t h a t a s e r i e s of p r e f i x e s t h e n t h a t 2 2 w e r e a s s i g n e d to c o m p o u n d s to the b e s t of y o u r 2 3 p r e s e n t r e c o l l e c t i o n tnat w e r e s y n t h e s i z e d at 2 4 Edgewood Arsenal? 2 5 A . Yes 4 A fiia c !v~..o.!' ! / , r + t f t /*% (* J r* L*, A t- . . Metcalf 90 1 MR. T A Y L O R : O b j e c t i o n to f o r m . 2 Q. W a s t h e r e a n y o t h e r p r e f i x u s e d to 3 identify chemicals? 4 ;A. I r e a l l y d o n ' t k n o w b u t t h e r e w e r e n o n e t h a t I 5 was f a m i l i a r with or that I recall. 5 Q. W a s t h e r e s o m e i n d e x k e p t t h a t w o u l d 7 a l l o w y o u to c r o s s i n d e x , if you w i l l , EA n u m b e r s 8 and CS n u m b e r s ? 9 A. M o t to m y k n o w l e d g e w a s t h e r e a n y i n d e x k e p t . 1 0 Q. W h a t t y p e of c h e c k w o u l d be r u n b e f o r e an 11 a t t e m p t w o u l d be m a d e to s y n t h e s i z e a c h e m i c a l at 1 2 E d g e w o o d l e a d i n g on the EA n u m b e r to be s u r e you 1 3 ;d i d n ' t a l r e a d y h a v e it -in t h e CS f i l e ? 1 4 A. On o c c a s i o n , the p e o p l e who w e r e i n v o l v e d in 1 5 t h ;e, s y n t h e s i s w o u l d c o m e d o w n to t h e o f f i c e u s u a l l y 16 bjecause it was c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n and say w o u l d * 17 y o u : run a c h e c k and see if y o u ' v e e v e r s e e n th i s 18 t y p e of c o m p o u n d . 1 9 i.I ! Q. ; A n d w h a t w o u l d y o u d o in r e s p o n s e to t h a t 20 r e q u e s t ? 14442 21 A - i, I ' d e i t h e r r:un it o r h a v e r u n t h e c h e c k to s e e 22 and o c c a s i o n a l l y we w o u l d find s o m e t h i n g that w o u l d 23 a p p r o a c h the s t r u c t u r e t h e y w e r e i n t e r e s t e d in. 2 4 Q. A n d w h e n y o u s a y r u n t h e c h e c k , w o u l d 2 5 this be s o m e t h i n g run on a c o m p u t e r or run m a n u a l l y , Metcalf 1 h o w would that be d o ne? : : 2 A . W e l l , it all d e p e n d s on y o u r time| 3 S o m e t i m e s it w a s a c a r d b y ' c a r d s e a r c h I 1 I !>. | 4 molecular formula based on occurrence o 5 or it w o u l d be run on a p u n c h c a r d s y s t l i| 6 c o m p u t e r syst e m that we were d e v e l o p i n g I: I 7 p r o g r e s s b u t n e v e r g o t r e a l l y to t h e ico 8 Q. W o u l d it w o r k in r e v e r s e , t h 9 p e o p l e f r o m y o u r o f f i c e e v e r g o to t h e ! 1 0 where EA numbers were indexed and searc 11 t h e r e w a s a n y t h i n g in the EA n u m b e r s th 1 2 looking for? 1 3 A. I s u p p o s e , but I d o n ' t r e c a l l a n y ' 14 instances . 1 5 Q. Do y ou k n o w if the EA n u m b e r ii | 1 6 i n d e x e d in t h e s a m e w a y t h a t t h e C S n'um 1 7 A. N o t t h a t I r e c a l l t h a t t h e y were; i 18 Q. H o w w o u l d y o u r e t r i e v e a n y t h 1 9 of the EA n u m b e r s ? 20 A. If I r e c a l l c o r r e c t ! y, it w a s very: 21 a l m o s t b y a l i n e i t e m s e a r c h or depen;di! :l 22 somebody's memory. 23 Q. W a s t h e r e a n y e f f o r t to log ! 2 4 t h e E A s y s t e m or t h e C S s y s t e m or sny! o; 2 5 at E d g e w o o d of w h i c h y o u n i g lit be aware! /M ^ n: Metcalf 1 t h a t w o u l d h a v e a p p e a r ed in t r i p r e po r t s ? 92 2 MR. T A Y L O R : O b j e c t ion to form. 3 A . I d o n 't r e c a l l of a n y s t e p s a l o n g t h a t l i n e . 4 MR. TAYLOR: The question was asked and 5 an swe red. 6 Q . Have you completed your answer? 7 A . Yes. 8 MR. TYRRELL: Thank you very much. I 9 don't have any other questions. ;. V' V 1 0 C R OS S - E XA M I N AT I ON BY MR. BURKE: 1 1 Q. H e l l o , D o c tor. M y n a m e is J a c k B u r k e . 1 2 I've got a couple of q u e s t i o n s for you also . None 1 3 dealing with the Orio l e s or Earl Weaver. 1 4 A . Ok a y . 1 5 Q. W h e n y o u w e r e w i t h the I n d u s t r i a l L i a i s o n 1 6 :Office, did you have, a s e c u r i t y c l earance? 1 7 A ;. Y e s . 18 ; Q. What security clearance, did you have? 1 9 A. E i t h e r s e c r e t or top s e c r e t and I had b o t h at 20 s o m e t i m e or o t h e r . . It w a s at l e a s t s e c r e t a n d I 21 t h i n k it w a s t o p s e c r e t for m o s t of t h a t period.. 22 Q. W a s it o r i g i n a l l y s e c r e t a n d t h e n w e r e 23 you u p g r a d e d to top s e c r e t ? 24 A,. Ye s . 14444 25 Q. B a c k in 1 9 5 6 or t h e r e a b o u t s , d id y o u h a v e Metcalf 1 a s e c u r i t y c 1 e a r a n c e.? 1,.II!i 93 2 A . Yes - 3 g . W as it s e e r 4 A. To the b e s t of m y 5 Q . Do y o u reins 6 u p g r a d e d to top s e c r e t ? 7 A . I do not. 8 Q. W o u l d it h a v e b e e n d u r i n g the' p e r i o d of 9 t i m e t h a t y o u w e r e a t t h e I n d u s t r i a l Li' a|is o n O f f i c e ? 1 0 MR. TAYLOR: Objection. 1 1 A. Y e s , it c o u l d v e r y w e l l h a v e b e e n . 1 ; In f a c t , I 1 2 t h i n k it w a s but I c a n ' t g i v e y o u a n y d a t e s . I 13 m i g h t e v e n h a v e h a d a t o p s e c r e t b e f o r e il w e n t i n t o 1 4 the ILO b ut I j u s t d o n ' t r e m e m b e r when!, i i !. ! 1 5 Q. B a c k in t h e p e r i o d 1 9 5 6 to 1 9 6 6 , wa s 16 t h e r e a n y h i g h e r s e c u r i t y c l e a r a n c e thiainj t o p s e c r e t ? 1 7 A. As far as t h e l a b o r a t o r y -- 1 8 Q. As far as y o u : k n e w . .ii I::; 1 9 A. It s e e m s to me t h e r e w a s a h i g h e r : o h e i n v o l v i n g 20 a t o m i c e n e r g y or s o m e t h i n g l i k e t h a t . 21 Q. Do y o u k n o w if t h e r e w a s a n y : h i g h e r 22 s e c u r i t y c l e a r a n c e i n v o l v e d w i t h , l e t ' s s a y , 23 r e s e a r c h into t o x i c c h e m i c a l s ? 24 A . Mo t that I kno w o f . 2 5 Q. M o w , b a c k in u rrnH cr'ir>,q 111 * r-s r** ;t Metcalf . 94 1 the fact that you had a top secret clearance did not 2 m e a n t h a t y o u w e r e p e r m i t t e d to see all top s e c r e t 3 documents or materials; isn't that correct? 4 A.| T h a t is c o r r e c t . 5 'i MR. K A V E N A G H : O b j e c t . Y o u ' r e t r y i n g to 6 get him to d e l v e into the d e v i o u s mind of who 7 e s t a b l i s h e d the c o n f i d e n t i a l c i r c u i t and I d o u b t if 8 anybody can do that let alone a person who's been 9 given the d e s i g n a t i o n . 10 I Q . In a d d i t i o n to t o p s e c r e t c l e a r a n c e in 1 1 o r d e r to see c e r t a i n d o c u m e n t s , y o u w o u l d h a v e to 1 2 ;have the n e e d to k n o w , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? * 13 A.i T h a t was m y . u n d e r s t a n d i n g of top s e c r e t . 14 ; Q. In the e v e n t that e x p e r i m e n t a t i o n was 15 being c o n d u c t e d at E d g e w o o d A r s e n a l i n v o l v i n g a 16 itoxiic s u b s t a n c e , 1t h e i d e n t i t y o f w h i c h y o u h a d no 17 n e e d to k n o w o f , jis :it p o s s i b l e t h a t t h a t s u b s t a n c e 18 would have been requested from certain sources 19 w i t h o u t g o i n g t h r o u g h your o f f i c e ? 20 ; ;| MR. TAYLOR: O b j e c t i o n on the g r o u n d s of 21 s p e c u l a t i o n . .;: :i 2 2 A i.jj S u r e /; i t ' s p o s s i b l e . 1 4 <$/' P 23 ! ;j M R . K A V E N A G H : A n y t h i n g is p o s s i b l e , 24 j Q. Y o u t o l d ;us e a r l i e r , I b e l i e v e , D o c t o r , 2 5 that c e r t a i n c o m p o u n d s w e r e a c t u a l l y s y n t h e s i z e d at Metcalf !i' | 95 1 E d g e w o o d A r s e n a l ; is that c o r r e c t ? i j.s 2 A . That's correct. ; i r ! .: j ;j ; : j i| 3 Q. W e r e y o u a w a r e d u r i n g t he 1 9 5 5 to 1 9 5 6 M M i:; 4 time p e r i o d of all of the' c o m p o u n d s t h a t 1w e r e b e i n g ;1: ; *i';i .; ' 5 s y n t h e s i z e d at Edge wood Ar s e n a l ? ;' j ' ! 6 A . I'm sure I wasn't. : i I;m !j 7 Q. W h e n y o u u s e d i t h e t e r m to s y n t h e s i z e a 8 c o m p o u n d , w h a t are you s a y i n g in l a y m a n ' s t e r m s ? 9 W h a t d o e s t h a t m e a n to s y n t h e s i z e a c o m p o u n d ? :. 1 y Ij1,-1!'; 1 0 A. O n l y by t a k i n g t w o or m o r e s i m p l e r ^ m a t e r i a l s 11 and a l l o w i n g t h e m to r e a c t to g i v e a n o t h e r c o m p o u n d 1 2 w h i c h , in t u r n , m a y r e a c t w i t h s o m e t h i n g :e l s e to 1 3 g i v e y o u a t h i r d or a f o u r t h o r a f i f t h ; - In o t h e r 1 4 w o r d s , y o u t a k e A p l u s B a n d i t g i v e s y o u C. If C 1 5 i s n ' t w h a t y o u w a n t , y o u l e t i t r e a c t w i t h D. T h a t 16 r e a c t s to g i v e y o u E . If E i s n 't w h a t y ou w a n t , y o u 1 7 let it r e a c t w i t h a n o t h e r m a t e r i a l or c o m b i n a t i o n of 18 c i r c u m s t a n c e s to g i v e y o u m a y b e the p r o d u c t you w a n t 1 9 Q. L e t ' s f o l l o w y o u r e x a m p l e a l i t t l e 2 0 further, Doctor. 21 If y o u r e a c t e d A w i t h B and: C w a s f o r m e d , 2 2 y o u a s an o r g a n i c c h e m i s t , w o u l d y o u b e ;a b l e to d r a w 2 3 the S t r u c t u r e for C? 14447* 2 4 A. If t he r e a c t i o n p r o c e e d e d a c c o r d i n g to t h e o r y , 2 5 t h e n o n e c o u l d d r a w t h e s t r u c t u r e b u t orve w o u l d v./nnn n r d -roirurJIi r' Metcalf 95 1 never know the structure positively without checking n t h a t s t r u c t u r e o u t to m a k e s u r e the t h e o r y d i d n ' t go 3 awry someplace. 4 Q. Y o u ' v e b e e n s h o w n d o c u m e n t s t o d a y t hat 5 d e s c r i b e a s t r u c t u r e known as 2,3,7,3 6 t e t r a c h 1 o r o d i b e n z o - p - d i o x i n , is t n a t c o r r e c t ? 7 A. I g u e s s t h a t w a s t h e n a m e of it. 8 Q . Have you ever heard -- w i t h d r a w n . Had 9 ,ypu ever h e a r d of 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 1 0 !t e t r a c h l o r o d i b e n z o - p - d i o x in b e f o r e t o d a y ? 11 MR. K A V E N A G H : T h a t ' s b e e n a s k e d and 1 2 a n s w e r e d two or three times around by now. 1 3 A. ; Y e s , yes. ! 1 4 Q. W h e n d i d y o u h e a r of t h a t s t r u c t u r e for 15 the fir s t time? 16 A: .1|< : T:h a t I d o n ' t k n o w . 1 7 MR. K A V E N A G H : Is t h i s r e p e t i t i o n r e a l l y 18 n e c e s s a r y ? 19 ; Q. In r e s p o n s e to a q u e s t i o n t h a t w a s p o s e d 20 to y o u t h i s a f t e r n o o n r e g a r d i n g 21 2 , 4 , 5 - t r i c h l o r o p h e n o x y a c e t i c a c i d , y o u r e s p o n d e d b y i 22 saying that after h earing that term, you as an 23 o r g a n i c c h e m i s t w o u l d be a b l e to d r a w the s t r u c t u r e , 24 isthatcorrect? 144^^ 2 5 A . If the n a m e is g o o d , an o r g a n i c c h e m i s t s h o u l d Metcalf ,h..t 1 be a b l e to d r a w t h e ;st r lic t u r e . i!, *! l: h !i: 97 J7*' I; 2 Q . : A s s u m e t h a t tihe t e r m 2,3,7,18 ! i: 3 t e t r a c h l o r o d i b e n z o - p - d i o x i n is an a c c u r a t e t e r m , : !f !;: 4 w o u l d a n o r g a n i c c h e m i s t be a b l e to d r a w 1t h e 5 structure of that compound? 6 A. S o m e . I w o u l d n ' t . : ! !. >i oT; 7 Q. But s o m e w o u l d ? bp' !' i 8 A. S o m e w o u l d . I w o u l d n ' t be a b l e to.; I: 9 MR. TAYLOR: A l t h o u g h a little late I have 1 0 to o b j e c t in t e r m s on t h e g r o u n d s of v a g u e n e s s . 11 T h e r e ' s b e e n no t i m e f r a m e f o r w h i c h an o r g a n i c 12 chemist could have drawn such a structure from that 13 n a m e . ' :'I 1 4 Q. T h a t ' s a g o o d p o i n t , D o c t o r . \ B a c k in the 1 5 p e r i o d 1 9 6 0 t h r o u g h 19 7 0 was it within: 'the e x p e r t i s e : 1:: 1 G of th e f i e l d of o r g a n i c c h e m i s t r y to be jable to d r a w 17 the structure repres e n t i n g 2,3,7,8 18 t e t r a c h l o r o d i b e n z o - p - d i o x i n ? 1 9 A. W e l l , m y a n s w e r is the s a m e . To s o m e c h e m i s t s , 20 t h a t w o u l d h a v e -- t h e y c o u l d v i s u a l i z e \a- s t r u c t u r e 21 from it. O t h e r c h e m i s t s w o uld not. M j- 22 Q, M o w , if uhe s t r u c t u r e for 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 2 3 t e t r a c h l o r o d i b e n z o - p - d i o x i n w a s k n o w n :at: E d g e w o o d i I; 1 . 2 4 A r s e n a l in t h e 1 96 0 's, w o u l d o r g a n i c c h :e m i s t s a t 2 5 t h a t f a c i l i t y b e e n a b l e to s y n t h e s i z e t h a t c o m p o u n d w n p n e n d cT^ir.--lii ;p i ortifioiH c t n r o r ~ > ->.>+orf Metcalf 98 1 by; r e l y i n g on t h e s t r u c t u r e ? 2 .i j MR. KAVENAGH:' O b j e c t i o n on the g r o u n d s 3 ofj s p e c u l a t i o n ? 4 A . . I d o n ' t k n o w . 5 Q. W i t h i n the f i e l d of o r g a n i c c h e m i s t r y 6 b a c k in t h e s i x t i e s , was it p o s s i b l e to s y n t h e s i z e 7 compounds from a structure? !'! | 3 MR. TAYLOR: Objection. T h a t q u e s t i o n is 9 so v a g u e . 1 0 A.:, T h e q u e s t i o n is v e r y , v e r y g e n e r a l . 11 Q . I m e a n t it to be g e n e r a l , D o c t o r . 1 2 A. j In g e n e r a l , 'one, s h o u l d be a b l e to m a k e an 1 3 a t t e m p t to s y n t h e s i z e c o m p o u n d s f r o m a n y s t r u c t u r e ! . i, 1 4 ;th;at c a n b e d r a w n . W h e t h e r t h e c h e m i c a l s y n t h e s e s ;I : 1 5 .for d o i n g w h a t you w a n t to do h a v e b e e n d e s i g n e d or 1 6 no;t; o r w h e t h e r y o u h a v e to w o r k in t h e d a r k to t r y 17 t o i f i n d a m e t h o d , y o u d o n ' t k n o w w h i c h is a p p r o a c h e d 18 u n t i l y o u go into the l i t e r a t u r e , so j u s t by l o o k i n g 19 a|t| |a s t r u c t u r e y o u c a n ' t s a y p o s i t i v e l y t h a t 'i i 20 s t r u c t u r e c a n be s y n t h e s i z e d o r n o t . Y o u m i g h t h a v e 21 id e a s 9 b u t you m i g h t ha v e to do a w h a l e of a lot of 2 2 ,w*o r:,k to p r o v e i t . '; :| 23 `;';:1.iii Q. To yo u r k n o w l e d g e , did p e r s o n n e l at 2 4 ;Edgewood A r s e n a l ever e n g a g e in a g r e a t d e a l of w o r k |-' 2 5. i n ; o r d e r to s y n t h e s i z e s c e r t a i n c o m p o u n d ? w n n n n n H cr-uncJli Metcalf 99 1 MR. T A Y L O R : O b j e c t i o n to v a g u e n e s s . W h a t 2 is a g r e a t d e a l of work! and .what com p o u n d s a r e we 3 talking about? ' ; ! ; I; !-i, ii ! : j ' i i :; !;: 4 Q. Do y o u u n d e r s t a n d ray q u e s t i o n 1, D o c t o r ? 5 A. I d o n ' t k n o w w h i c h : c o m p o u n d s y o u ' r e ' r e f e r r i n g 5 to . ' '| i:: 7 Q. L e t ' s a s s u m e ' t h a t b a c k in the s i x t i e s a 8 p a r t i c u l a r s t r u c t u r e b e c a m e k n o w n to s c i e n t i s t s , ) 9 c h e m i s t s at Edgewood A rsenal and t hat!this s t r u c t u r e 1 0 g e n e r a t e d a g r e a t a m o u n t o f i n t e r e s t in; t h e s e 1 1 s cientists and chemists j would they then embark on a 1 2 g r e a t d e a l of w o r k in o r d e r to s y n t h e s i z e tha t 13 p a r t i c u l a r c o m p o u n d f r o m the s t r u c t u r e t h a t was . , 1 4 k no wn to t h em . ! : j: 1 5 M R . T A Y L O R : O b j e c t i o n in t e r m ;s of i 16 v a g u e n e s s . W h a t c o m p o u n d a re we t a l k i n g a b o u t ? 1 7 A. T h e r e ' s j u s t no w a y to a n s w e r the q u e s t i o n . 18 T h e r e w e r e t o o m a n y t h i n g s b e a r i n g o n 1q u e s t i o n s o f 19 w h e t h e r to s y n t h e s i z e or n o t to t r y t s y n t h e s i z e , 20 a t l e a s t as I r e c a l l , b e c a u s e t h e r e ' s a l w a y s 21 h u n d r e d s of ideas and you o n l y h ave l i m i t e d 22 p e r s o n n e l . 2 3 Q. B a c k in the s i x t i e s , d i d c h e m i s t s at 2 4 Edgewood Arsenal ever synthesize compounds from 2 5 s t r u c t u r e s t h a t h a d b e e n p r o v i d e d to t h e m ? 14 4^ * \ n r I/'"`It-N/-- r**-wr>r~\!11 ,, - u _ - l u ---^ ! !I Me tealf 100 1 MR. GORMAN: Object. You're asking for 2 .the e n t i r e r o l e h i s t o r y a n d f u n c t i o n of n o t o n l y i .i 3 o r g a n i c c h e m i s t r y but wha t went on at E d g e w o o d 4 A r s e n a l for e v e r y d i v i s i o n in the l a b o r a t o r y . I ii 5 .don't think his p o s i t i o n r e q u i r e d that kind of 6 Knowledge. 7 i ; Q. Y o u c a n - a n s w e r the q u e s t i o n , D o c t o r . 8 ,A.i W o u l d yo u r e p e a t that for me p l e a s e . Q (Therecordisread) "r"-v >. 1 0 A. R e a l i z i n g t h a t s t r u c t u r e s w e r e d r e a m e d up and 11 presented from many, many different sources, I'm 1 2 sure the a n s w e r is t hat c e r t a i n l e v e l s of e f f o r t 1 3 .were used to t r y to s y n t h e s i z e s o m e of t h e s e i d e a s 1 4 and some of the s tructures presented, but beyond 1 5 this, g e n e r a l i t y , I h a v e no r e c o l l e c t i o n . 16 I.;!;;! Q. Do y o u h a v e a n y r e c o l l e c t i o n if c h e m i s t s 1 7 at: E d g e w o o d A r s e n a l d u r i n g t h e 19 6 0 ' s w e r e !I ;::: 1; 18 'ait|t|em p t i ng to s y n t h e s i z e 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 i :: 1 19 t;e t r a c h 1 o r o d i b en zo - p - d i o x i n f r o m t h e s t r u c t u r e t h a t 20 h a d b e e n p r o v i d e d to t h e m ? 21 MR. T A Y L O R : O b j e c t i o n . The q u e s t i o n i ..i 22 i n c o r p o r a t e s e v i d e n c e w h i c h has not b een t e s t i f i e d j !, 23 to . I 24 A . -j j To a n s w e r y o u r q u e s t i o n , n o t t h a t I k n o w o f . 25 ; i !| Q. W o u l d it b e f a i r to s a y , D o c t o r , t h a t j, jtV it Metcalf 1 certain compounds and/or structures gene ''!,*1 '! Ii 2 varying degrees of interest among chemis j; 3 Edgewood Arsenal? i; 4 MR. K A V E N A G H : T h a t ' s a pi a ti 5 observation. I don't s e;: e. what r e l e v a ; n;iit ;:;;:1IJi: 6 anything. ' |i; |! 7 A . Yes . 8 Q. T h e a n s w e r is y e s ? : ;j ` ;i !; ! 9 A . Yes . j 1 O Q. A s s u m e , if y o u w i l l , for a m o 1 1 that a certain structure generated a gre 1 2 interest at Edgewood A rsenal and the com 1 3 that structure represented was not avai 1 1 4 c o m m e r c i a l s o u r c e , w o u l d it h a v e b e e n c u 1 5 p r a c t i c e b a c k in the 1 9 6 0 ' s for c h e m i s t s 1 6 A r s e n a l to a t t e m p t to s y n t h e s i z e the c o m 1 7 MR. TAYLOR: O b j e c t i o n on thej . 'i 1 8 s p e c u l a t i o n . O b j e c t i o n o n t h e g r o u n d ;th 19 is c o m p o u n d and c o m p l i c a t e d to u n d e r s t a n 20 MR. BURKE: And you m i g h t not 2 1 answer. 22 M R . K A V E N A G H : It p r o b a b l y wo 23 of an a n s w e r b u t go a h e a d . 2 4 MR. BURKE: L e t 's ha v e the qu 25 b a c k to you, o k a y , D o c t o r ? nrvd I'riroll' p-V. , . .. Metcalf 102 1 ;A. Y e s , p l e a s e . 2 /. . ( T h e .recor'J is r e a d ) 3 A.; As I r e c a l l the p r o c e d u r e in a s i t u a t i o n l i k e 4 t h a t , if e v e r y b o d y w a s a g r e e d that the c o m p o u n d w a s 5 0 fi,interest, it w o u l d d e p e n d a g r e a t d e a l on the 1 5 source of the information . 7 N o w , if it w e r e a CS s o u r c e , t h e y 8 w o u l d n ' t be t r y i n g to s y n t h e s i z e the c o m p o u n d . If 9 it w e r e a l o c a l a d v i s o r y c o m m i t t e e or an A r m y 1 0 a d v i s o r y c o m m i t t e e or an idea t hat d e v e l o p e d from Ii i i 1 1 t h e l i t e r a t u r e , t h e n it c e r t a i n l y w o u l d h a v e b e e n 12 tried . 13 ;j . M R . BURKE: Thank you, Doctor. 14 15 ,7 MS. NEIMANN: I don't have any questions, MR . WHITE : I have one other question. 1 5 R c r o s s -e x a m i n a t i o n 'BY M R . WHITE: 17 ; I ' d l i k e to h a v e t h i s m a r k e d f o r 18 I d e n t i f i c a t i o n t h i s is a c o m m e r c i a l s o u r c e s a m p l e 19 r e c o r d log . 20 i i ; ; ( E x h i b i t M e t c a l f - 1 0 is m a r k e d for 21 I d e n t i f i c a t i o n ) 22 j, : Q. Doctor, I show you what's been marked 23 M e t c a l f E x h i b i t - 1 0 a n d a s k y o u if y o u r e c o g n i z e t h a t 24 e x h i b i t 144 r A 2 5 A . It l o o k s s i m i l a r to t h e l o g s h e e t s t h a t we u s e d Metcalf |, j 103 .1 in. the. I n d u s t r i a l L i a i s o n : ' O f f ice.,, That;',s as far. as 2 I could go. i ;i ' . !ih I11 3 M R . T A Y L O R : B e f o r e , y o u a s k a n y q u e s t i o n s -;' i'' 4 M R . K A V E N A G H : M a y w e l o o k ? i; i : ' ;: ! 5 MR . TAYLOR : Yes. ! !: 6 MR . WHITE : Yes . '''i ! 7 M R . K A V E N A G H : Is t h e r e , a d a t e for t h i s 3 document. 9 M R . WHITE: No, not that I know of but 10 t h e r e a r e d a t e s pe r ta in ing w i t h i n . :; 1 1 MR. K A V E N A G H : This could be . h i st o r i c a l , 1 2 it c o u l d be a n t i c i p a t o r y . It c o u l d be a g a i n an 1 3 i l l u s i v e d o c u m e n t f l o a t i n g in 'a l e g a l ;1 i m b o . I 1 4 o b j e c t to its i n t r o d u c t i o n . 1 5 Q. D o c t o r , y o u i n d i c a t e d t h a t ; t h a t l o o k s 15 l i k e a -- 17 MR. KAVENAGH: There's a continuing 18 o b j e c t i o n to a n y q u e s t i o n s r e l a t i v e to; t h i s d o c u m e n t . 19 Q. T h a t l o o k s l i k e a c o m m e r c i a l source 20 s a m p l e log t h a t y o u k e p t in y o u r I n d u s t r i a l L i a i s o n 21 O f f i c e ; is that c o r r e c t ? ;:i. 22 A . Yes . 2 3 V.'ha t wo u 1 d t h a t l o g c o n t a i n 1? ; 2 4 MR. KAVENAGH: The record, by the way 2 5 s h o u l d p o i n t o u t t h a t t h e r e ' s ho s i m i l a r i t y to the J **s ~ U -- .41. 44v ^ Metcalf 10 4 1 p r i o r e x h i b i t w h i c h I b e l i e v e is n u m b e r f i v e a n d 2 you're c r e a t i n g an i l l u s i o n of s i m i l a r i t y or 3 i d e n t i c a l c a r b o n s I t h i n k is m i s l e a d i n g to s a y the 4 least. 5 Q. D o c t o r , w h a t w o u l d that: l o g c o n t a i n ? 6 A . ; W e l l , if y o u l o o k at the t i t l e s at the h e a d of 7 t h e 1; p a g e , i t ' s p r e t t y w e l l s e l f - e x p l a n a t o r y . 8 Q. U n d e r t h e c o l u m n s o u r c e c o d e , y o u h a v e 9 varying four digit numbers. What would those four 1 0 d i g i t n u m b e r s r e p r e s e n t , if y o u k n o w ? 11 A. T h a t is a CS n u m b e r t h a t w a s p r e v i o u s l y 1 2 i d e n t i f i e d a n d it' w o u l d i n d i c a t e t h a t t h i s 1 3 p a r t i c u l a r c o m p o u n d , w h a t e v e r it w a s , w a s i d e n t i f i e d 14 b y t h i s n u m b e r . I ' m s o r r y -- I ' m s o r r y , I b e g y o u r 1 5 pardon. I am i n c o r r e c t on the s t a t e m e n t I made. 16 Thlis is t h e s o u r c e c o d e n u m b e r . T h a t w a s t h e n u m b e r 1 7 t h a t the s o u r c e p r o v i d e d w h e n the s a m p l e w a s s e n t in l 18 fb r i d e n t i f i c a t i o n p u r p o s e s 19 Q. U n d e r the -- 20 A.: T h i s is t h e C S n u m b e r a s i n d i c a t e d in t h e 21 cO; 1 u m n . 22 Q. On t h e s e c o n d CS -- t h e s e c o n d n u m b e r 23 down- on the CS c o l u m n w h i c h r e a d s 6 6 4 2 2 h a s a s o u r c e 2 4 code, of' 5 7 5 5 , w o u l d t h e r e be a w a y o f d e t e r m i n i n g 2 5 where that p a r t i c u l a r chemical c o mpound came from by M e tc a 1 f 105 1 cross-checking that source code number?: ;; i; 2 A . W e l l , if y o u go t h r o u g h a l l the i n f o r m a t i o n I 3 f r o m a l l o f t h e c o m p a n i e s t h a t t h e I L 0 ;wia s 4 communicating with about that time, then;you would 5 find in the file t h a t l i s t i n g . 1 ji j 5 Q. Do y o u r e c o g n i z e the h a n d w r i t i n g or the 7 h a n d w r i t i n g s on that d o c u m e n t at a l l ? ; 8 A . No . i. i 9 Q. T h e h a n d w r i t t e n p o r t i o n t h a t ; is in t h e r e , 1 0 it d o e s h a v e d a t e s n e x t .to it. Do y o u k n o w w h o 1 1 w o u l d h a v e b e e n l i k e l y in y o u r o f f i c e to h a v e put 1 2 that i n f o r m a t i o n in by h a n d ? 1 3 A. T h e s e log b o o k s w e r e kept by the ' s c i e n t i f i c 1 4 p e r s o n n e l and they w o u l d be the o n l y ones f a m i l i a r 1 5 w i t h t h e s e d a t e s a n d w h e n t h e y s h o u l d be p u t in a n d 1 6 when they should not. ! 1 7 Q. W o u l d the h a n d w r i t t e n i n f o r m a t i o n be put 13 in by a s c i e n t i f i c p e r s o n n e l or a c l e r i c a l ? 1 9 A. M o s t of the t i m e , I w o u l d t h i n k that; it w a s the 20 s c i e n t i f i c p e r s o n n e l , a t l e a s t t h a t ' s t h e b e s t o f m y 21 r e c o l l e c t i o n t h a t it wa s . 22 Q. A n d w o u l d t h a t c o m m e r c i a l s o u r c e s a m p l e 2 3 record log indicate w h e r e a c e r t a i n c h e m i c a l 2 4 c o m p o u n d w a s s e n t to f r o m y o u r o f f i c e ? -14457 2 5 A. U n d e r the r e q u e s t e r it g i v e s a n a m e and w h e n it w n n n nnH cr* rc I i i! Metcalf' 106 ! ;i 1 w a s s e n t to t h e n , as I .re c a l l it, it w a s s e n t cn a 2 particular date, 3 'i' ' MR. V?HITE: T h a n k yon v e r y m u c h , D o c t o r , i 4 .I h a v e no f u r t h e r q u e s t i o n s . [ . . 5 j! :i M R . B U R K E : If I m a y , I ' v e g o t j u s t a 5 c o u p l e m o r e q u e s t i o n s j u s t to k e e p t h e c o n t i n u i t y '|i-;II 7 going. ; 3 R E C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N BY MR. BURKE. 9 Q. D o c t o r , y o u told us a l i t t l e 'while ago in 1 0 r e s p o n s e to o n e of n y q u e s t i o n s t h a t y o u had h e a r d 11 o f :the t e r m 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 t e t c a c h l o r o d i b e n z o - p - d i o x i n 1 2 p r i o r to t o d a y ; is t h a t . c o r r e c t ? 1 3 A . I think so, I think so. 1 4 M ;; Q. Do you r e m e m b e r a p p r o x i m a t e l y ho w long 15 ago it w a s that you f i r s t h e a r d that t e r m ? 16 :! ;: MR. TA YLOR: Asked and answ e r e d . 17 A.MH N o r e c o l l e c t i o n a t a l l . 18 I M Q 19 1 9 7 1 ? y o u r e t i r e f r o m the g o v e r n m e n t in 20 A .: 19 7 4 . y 4 4 r>r) 21 ; Q. 1 9 7 4 ? Do y o u r e c a l l if y o u w o u l d h a v e 22 h e a r d the t e r m 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 t e t r a c h l o r o d i b e n z o - p - d i o x i n 2 3 w hile you were still employed by the g o v e r n m e n t ? 2 4 A. ; :;No, I d o n ' t r e c a l l . 25 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l the c o n t e x t in w h i c h y ou Metcalf 10 7 1 heard that term? Let me wi t h d r a w the;question. ! 2 D i d y o u h e a r `a b o u t t h a t term,1 f r o m t a l k i n g 3 to s o m e b o d y or d i d y o u r e a d it in t h e '1 i t e r a t u r e ? i .. ? 4 MR. T A Y L O R : O b j e c t i o n to fo r m . -i ' 1 5 A. I h a v e n ' t the s l i g h t e s t id e a . 6 Q. Do y o u k n o w if y o u b e c a m e a w a r e of the : 1i 7 t e r m 2,3,. 7 , 8 t e t r a c h l o r o d i b e n z o - p - d i o x i n w h i l e y o u a w e r e s t i l l in the O f f i c e of I n d u s t r i a l ` L i a i s o n ? 9 MR. K A V E N A G H : He just a n s w e r e d that he 1 0 couldn't place the time. 11 A. I c a n ' t r e c a l l . B u t if it w o u l d h e l p a n y , if 1 2 it w e r e t a l k e d a b o u t ac E d g e w o o d , I p r o b a b l y w o u l d 1 3 have h e ard a b o u t it. 1 4 MR. K A V E N A G H : Y o u ' r e p u s h i n g for an 1 5 answer that he can't answer. 1 C 0. Do y o u r e c a i ] it b e i n g t a l k e d a b o u t ? 17 MR. Y A N N A C O N E : O b j e c t i o n to ^any f u r t h e r 1 8 b a d g e r i n g of this p a r t i c u l a r w i t n e s s under any 19 c i rc um s t a n c e s . 20 M R. G O R D O N : He h a s no s t a n d i n g in t h i s 21 d e p o s i t i o n . 22 To m a k e o b j e c t i o n s y o u h a v e to be h e r e 2 3 from the beginning of the deposition. 2 4 MR. YANNACONE: No n s e n s e . Mr. Yann a c o n e 2 5 is l e a d c o u n s e l for the p l a i n t i f f s . Mr. Y a n n a c o n e . u _ .iu . . . . I.. M e tc a 1 f 108 1 will m a k e o b j e c t i o n s as he sees fit. Those 2 o b j e c t i o n s a r e on the r e c o r d . You can s a v e it u n t i l 3 5, o ' c l o c k a n d y o u c a n s u s p e n d t h e e x a m i n a t i o n u n t i l 4 5t o ' c l o c k if y o u w a n t t o. 5 MR. BURKE: We were getting along pretty 6 .well up u n t i l now. 7 MR. Y A N N A C O N E : Y o u w e r e p u t t i n g w o r d s in 8 t h e d o c t o r ' s m o u t h t h a t I ' m n o t g o i n g to p e r m i t a n y 9 f u r t h e r o p p o r t u n i t y to o c c u r . 1 0 MR. BURKE: Would you read the question 11 b a c k . t o the w i t n e s s p l e a s e . 1 2 (The r e c o r d is read) 1 3 Q I guess I didn't finish my question 14 Doctor 15 Do y o u ^ r e c a l l if t h e t e r m 2 , 3 , 1, 3 16 t e t r a c h l o r o d i b e n z o - p - d i o x i n was b e ing t a l k e d a b o u t 1 7 whii lje y o u w e r e at j E d g e w o o d A r s e n a l ? 18 i MR. YANNACONE: Objection. It's been 1 9 asked and answered. 20 M S . W I T T : I ' l l j o i n in t h a t o b j e c t i o n . 21 MR. Y A N N A C O N E : D i r e c t him not to a n s w e r . I 22 A . ; ;I d o n ' t r e c a l l . 23 MR. B U R K E : T h a n k you, D o c t o r . 24 MR. G O R D O N : A n y o n e else?' 25 MR. KAVENAGH: Thank you very much sir. ) Metcalf 109 1 MR. GORDON:. _ Dr. M e t c a l f , thank you. -. | 11: : n (Whereupon the p r o c e e d i n g s are c o n c l u d e d 3 a t foui' o ' c l o c k p . n . ) 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 i1 12 ]3 14 15 13 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 1 25 \At i 110 1 C E :R T I F I C A T E 2 3 I, H E L E N D O H O G N E , a C e r t i f i e d . S h o r t h a n d 4 R e p o r t e r and N o t a r y P u b l i c of the S t a t e of New 5 J e r s e y , do h e r e b y c e r t i f y t h a t p r i o r to the 6 c o m m e ncement of the e x a mination the witness and/or I 7 w i t n e s s e s w e r e ;s w o r n to t e s t i f y the t r u t h , the w h o l e 8 truth and n o t h i n g . b u t the truth. 9 I do f u r t h e r c e r t i f y t h a t the f o r e g o i n g is a 1 0 true and a c c u r a t e c o m p u t e r - a i d e d t r a n s c r i p t of the 11 t e s t i m o n y as t a k e n s t e n o g r a p h i c a l l y b y a n d b e f o r e me / 1 2 at the time, place and on the date h e r e i n b e f o r e set 1 3 ! forth. 1 4 ;j :| 1 do f u r t h e r c e r t i f y that I am n e i t h e r of .! .1!1J / 1.5 | c o u n s e l n o r a t t o r n e y f o r a n y p a r t y in t h i s a c t i o n 1 6 ' a n d t h a t I a m n o t i n t e r e s t e d in t h e e v e n t n o r !.. i ' 17 o u t c o m e of t h i s l i t i g a t i o n . 18 19 20 21 22 D a t e d : 23 "V^.g.Q.Q. X' N o t a r y P ublic o f the S t a t e of New J e r s e y 24 25 IH * ) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1] 12 13 14 15 16 17 10 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 In re "AGENT iU N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T ;E A S T E R N D I S T R I C T OF; N E W Y O R K ;MDL N o . 381 i i l! 1! i: :: 1!': : ij: i i`: ORANGE" i ! i! i i: 1: : Deposition !; i ! ' i ' : DR. R O B E R T A. of : DARROW Product Liability Litigation T R A N S C R I P T of t e s t i m o n y as taken by and before HEYWOOD WAGA, a Certified Shorthand Reporter and N o t a r y Public of the State, of Ne w Jersey, at the ' 5 ;,> offices of MESSRS. CADWALADER, W I C K E R S H A M & TAFT, 1333 New Hampshire Avenue N W , Washington^ D.C., on Tuesday, July 13, 1982, c o m m e n c i n g at 10:35 intheforenoon. ; i- West 405 Nor'chf ield A v e n u e Orange, New Jersey 07052 (201) 731-9666 p (J w aga and spinelli <certified shorthand reporters 1 APPEARANCES: '! 2 MESSRS. BURKE, CURRY, HAMMILL & O'BRIEN 3 Y : E U G E N E J. O ' B R I E N , E S Q . , :: j " 3 For the Plaintiffs 4 W I L L I A M T. M C M I L L A N , ( A u s t r a l i a ) ' :h !I Barrister-At-Law ; 5 For Australian Plaintiffs. 6 A.B. GEORGE, (Australia) 'I Barrister-At-Law, 7 For Australian Plaintiffs. 1 8 MESSRS. RIVKIN, LEFF, SHERMAN & RADLER B Y : W I L L I A M F. C A V A N A U G H , E S Q . , 9 F o r D o w C h e m i c a l **- 1 O M E S S R S . C A D W A L A D E R , .W I C K E R S H A M & T A F T BY: M I C H A E L M. G O R D O N , ESQ. 11 For D i a m o n d S h a m r o c k 12 MESSRS. KELLEY, DRYE & WARREN BY: W I L L I A M A. K R O H L E Y , ESQ. 13 C H A R L E S M. M A T T I N G L Y , ESQ. For Hercules, Inc. 14 MESSRS.^TOWNLEY & UPDIKE 1 5 BY : J A M E S E. T Y R R E L L , J R . , E S Q . For Monsanto Company 16 MESSRS. CLARK, GAGLIARDI & MILLER 1 7 BY: J O H N J. B U R K E , ESQ . For Thompson Hayward, North American Phillips 18 MESSRS. BUDD, LARNER, KENT, GROSS, 19 P I C I L L O & R O S E N B A U M BY : E D W A R D R. M A T T H E W S , E S Q . ____ 20 F o r T h o m p s o n C h e m i c a l s 21 M E S S R S . A R T H U R , D R Y & K A L I S H --- BY: M A R I L Y N NE IMAN, ESQ. 22 Fcr U n i r o y a l , Inc. 23 J O A N B E R N O T T , ESQ. D e p a r t m e n t of Justice 2 4 For the United States of Am e r i c a 25 w aga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters !:i...il:.._i 1 ALSO PRESENT: 2 M A R T H A A. LUTHER,: ^ P a r a l e g a l M e s s r s . A s h c r a f t & G e r e l 3 4 :5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ;: I ...i I w cga and spineili certified shorthand reporters 4 1 2 WITNESS INDEX DIRECT 3 R O B E R T A. D AR R O W 4 Mr . Kr o h 1 e y 6 5 Mr. Burke 170 6 Mr . G o r d o n 187 7 Mr . M a t t h e w s 194 8 Mr . C a v a n a u g h 205 9 E X H ..I _B I T S 10 NUMBER DESCRIPTION IDENTIF ICATION 11 Da r row -1 12 Da r r o w -2 13 14 "Herbicides Used in S o u t h e a s t A s i a " Technical Report, n : s c e u a n e u s ^ud x lc a z l n I n f o r m a t i o n Manual for Vegetation dated 12/69 76 76 15 Darrow-3 16 17 Historical, Logistical, Political & Technical A s p e c t s of the Herbicide/Defoliant Program, 1961-1971 76 18 Dar r o w-4 19 20 Darrow-5 21 22 Technical Report, Miscellaneous Publication I n f o r m a t i o n Manual for Vegetation dated 12/69 33, M i n u t e s of a Meeting Hel d to D i s c u s s and E v a l u a t e Toxicity of 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T dated 4-26-63 91 109 23 Da r r o w-6 24 25 " Toxicity of Herbicides in Use in R V N " 114 11 4 4 0 7 1 2 NUMBER 3 Da r r o w-7 4 5 6 Darrow-8 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 i : I : i; - 5 !; E X H I B I T S (Continued) 5 D E S C R I P T ION IDENT IF ICATION :; ;. j ;I Memor a n d u m for Director # of-Research Laboratories dated. 3-11-70 !: ! 138 1I i !.; ' \i j:: i j :;' : j . Air Force Weapons : - i!: 1 ; i ; j ;'t !; .'195 '1 : Laboratory dated 1/68 w aga and spinelli certified shorthcnd reporters o 1 J u l y 13, 1932. 2 ROBERT A. D A R R O W , 3 7613 Baltimore-National Pike, Frederick, Maryland 4 21701, SWORN, t e s t i f i e d as follows: 5 DIRECT E X A M I N A T I O N BY MR. KROHLEY: 6 Q. M y n a m e is W i l l i a m K r o h l e y . I r e p r e s e n t 7 o n e of the d e f e n d a n t s in t h i s l i t i g a t i o n . 8 Could you briefly describe your 9 educational background. 1 0 A. I a t t e n d e d a f o r e s t r y school at S y r a c u s e 11 U n i v e r s i t y . It w a s a s t a t e s c h o o l of f o r e s t r y . I 12 got a Bachelors degree there. I went for one year 1 3 to the U n i v e r s i t y of Ida h o in the B o t a n y D e p a r t m e n t . 1 4 I w e n t f r o m t h e r e to the U n i v e r s i t y o f A r i z o n a and 15 s p e n t a year t h e r e on a M a s t e r s d e g r e e . From the r e 16 to a D o c t o r s d e g r e e at the U n i v e r s i t y of C h i c a g o , 1 7 w h i c h I o b t a i n e d in 1 9 3 7 . 1 8 Q . In w h a t did y o u o b t a i n a D o c t o r s d e g r e e ? 1 9 A.: In b o t a n y a n d e c o l o g y . I w a s in t h e D e p a r t m e n t 20 o f B o t a n y w i t h a n e m p h a s i s o n e c o l o g y . 21 : Q. During that period of time while you were 2 2 in| s c h o o l , d i d y o u h a v e a n y i n v o l v e m e n t in 2 3 herbicides of any type? 24 A. N o t at t h a t time, no. -1'i *i 2 5 Q. F o l l o w i n g t h e d e g r e e y o u o b t a i n e d f r o m Da r row i 1 the U n i v e r s i t y o f Chicag'o -- in w h a t y e a r w I. i 2 incidentally? b! 3 A. I l e f t t h e r e in 1936. I g o t the deg re 4 -in a b s e n t i a , r i g h t a f t e r c o m p l e t i n g m y d i s s :i ! ' hj 5 Q. B e g i n n i n g i n . 1 9 3 6 to t h e p r e s e n t i IN 6 could you describe y o u r :e m ployment history. , , ;t l l| 7 I'd l i k e y o u to d o to b e s t 1of. y o u r a b i l i t y | 8 i d e n t i f y the n a t u r e of . t h e 1jobs that y o u i h a 9 p rovide a brief d e s c r i p t i o n of your duties! j 1 0 A. F r o m 1 9 3 6 u n t i l 1 9 4 8 I w a s at the U n i v 1 1 A r i z o n a in w h a t w a s c a l l e d t h e D e p a r t m e n t ;o 1 2 and R a n g e E c o l o g y . I w a s on a h a l f time te 1 3 assignment there. Part of the time I was i 14 r e s e a r c h and the r e s e a r c h w a s in r a n g e mana< 1 5 r a n g e e c o l o g y , a n d t a x o n o m y o f p l a n t s . Duri ji 16 t i m e -- I w a s w o r k i n g at t h a t t i m e for part' i 17 t i m e in S a n t a R i t a E x p e r i m e n t a l R a n g e . I. .w iI 18 i n v o l v e d in s u c h t h i n g s a s r e - v e g e t a t i o n an* 19 w o r k on the use of 2 , 4 - D . 2 , 4 - D j u s t c a m e 20 d u r i n g t h e l a t t e r p a r r o f t i m e t h a t I w a s t 21 Q. A p p r o x i m a t e l y w h e n w a s t h a t ? Do 22 recall that? 23 A. W e l l , it was a b o u t 1 9 4 7 or so, 1947. 24 Q. Goon. 2 5 A. I l e f t t h e r e in the fa l l of 1948. w aga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters D a r ro w , 1 8 1 | Q. Let me s t o p y o u t h e r e for a m o m e n t . In 2 what connection did you first learn about 2,4-D? 3 A . ; In c o n n e c t i o n with the w o r k on the c o n t r o l of a 4 noxious woody plant on the Santa Rita Experimental 5 Range, a plant called' fcurroweed, all one word, 6 B U R R 0 w e e d . It is a c o m p o s i t e , a m e m b e r of the 7 c o m p o s i t e f a m i l y . It is u n p a l a t a b l e to l i v e s t o c k 8 and the a t t e m p t was to g e t rid of it and g r o w g r a s s 9 in its p l a c e . 10 Q. C a n y o u tell m e w h o b r o u g h t t h i s 11 s u b s t a n c e to y o u r a t t e n t i o n for the f i r s t t i m e ? 12 A. K e n n e t h W. P a r k e r was d o i n g the wor k . He was 1 3 with the Forest Service. 14 : Q. Wh a t work was Mr. Parker engaged in? 15 A.; He w a s in r a n g e m a n a g e m e n t . 16 'H ! 'i ' Q Was Mr. Parker r e s p o n s i b l e for the 17 d i s c o v e r y of 2 , 4 - D ? 18 A No . 19 :iii M R. O ' B R I E N : O b j e c t i o n to the f o r m of 20 the; q u e s t i o n . 21 ' j ;i Q. Under what c i r c u m s t a n c e s did Mr. Parker 22 b r i n g 2 , 4 - D to y o u r a t t e n t i o n d u r i n g t h i s p e r i o d o f 23 tim e ? 24 A. He was c o n c e r n e d as a r e s e a r c h w o r k e r wi t h 25 g r a z i n g m a n a g e m e n t , r a n g e m a n a g e m e n t s t u d i e s , and 'll ^ 4 * -* w o o d o n d snin elli r^ rtifid H ch nrthn n rl ro n o i'lo rt Darrow 1 b r u s h c o n t r o l o r w o o d y ! ipl a n t c o n t r o l , w h i c h 2 aspect of that. ,! I1 i i:. > 3 Q. Did y o u p e r s o n a l l y c o m e i nto c o n ;, I,i!'j 4 t h e s u b s t a n c e 2 , 4 - D d u r i n g t h a t p e r i o d of: t : ! |: 5 A. D i d I c o m e i n t o c o n t a c t w i t h w h a t ? j|: i : i ;; 6 Q. Did y o u p e r s o n a l l y c o m e i n t o c o n ; ii ; :!; I *7 t h e s u b s t a n c e 2 , 4 - D d u r i n g ; t h a t p e r i o d of; t i iI i 8 the l a t e 1 94 0s? j!' 1 .:} !; I/ \ 9 A . Ye s . iH . ; 1 0 Q. In w h a t w a y ? 11 A. In s p r a y i n g o n i n d i v i d u a l p l a n t s . o f j t h 12 plant. ' ,' i 1 3 Q. Did y o u p e r s o n a l l y s p r a y 2 , 4 - D o 14 plants? ; 15 A . Yes . |! | 16 Q. W h a t t y p e o f s p r a y a p p a r a t u s d;id 1 7 A. J u s t a t w o o r t h r e e g a l l o n k n a p - s a c k :s: 18 Q. W h e r e d i d y o u o b t a i n t h e 2 , 4-D; f ' I 19 p u r po s e ? .| 2 O' A. I b e l i e v e t h e t e r m c a m e f r o m O k l a h o m a , ! 21. US S o u t h e r n G r e a t P l a i n s S t a t i o n , O k l a h o m a . 1, 2 2 a s t h e m a t e r i a l t h a t I r e c e i v e d , it c a m e !f.r! 23 T h e y in t u r n g o t it f r o m the c h e m i c a l compa! 24 not sure who. 25 Q. W a s a n y o n e e l s e w o r k i n g w i t h y o u w aga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters Darrow 10 1 y o u :were working on 2,4-D at that time? 2 A. | T h e F o r e s t S e r v i c e p e o p l e w e r e w o r k i n g on it as 3 well. 4 : Q. Can you identify the individuals you have 5 in m i n d ? 1i 6 A . : W e l l , K e n n e t h P a r k e r is the o n l y one. 7 Q. Do y o u k n o w if Mr. P a r k e r e v e r p e r s o n a l l y 8 came into c o n t a c t w i t h 2 , 4 - D d u r i n g that p e riod of 9 time? 10 MR. O'BRIEN: .. . O b j e c t i o n to the f o r m of 11 the:question. 1 2 MS. 3ERN0TT: You can answer. 1 3 A. ; T h e r e w e r e s e v e r a l p e o p l e t h e r e . I d o n ' t 1 4 r e c a l l w h o a c t u a l l y d i d the s p r a y i n g . He w a s in 15 c h a r g e b u t o t h e r p e o p l e , a s s i s t a n t s , did the w o r k , 16 in m a k i n g a p p l i c a t i o n t e s t s . 17 i;i Q. Did y o u t a k e a n y s p e c i a l p r e c a u t i o n s in 18 u s i n g 2 , 4 - D at t h a t t i m e ? 't :; 19 i MR. O ' B R I E N : O b j e c t i o n to the f o r m of 20 t h e 1 q u e s t i o n . 21 A .; ii It w a s a n e w m a t e r i a l . I b e l i e v e we f o l l o w e d j :; 22 the: . d i r e c t i o n s t h a t w e r e g i v e n to us t h r o u g h t h e 23 p e o p l e at the S o u t h e r n G r e a t P l a i n s S t a t i o n . 24 ; Q. Do you r e c a l l wh a t t h o s e d i r e c t i o n s w e r e ? 25 A.i .i W e l l -- 14473 r* i II! ..a t*. _ .1 Dar row 1 Q. !) If I a m i n t e r r u p t i n g , I a p o l o g i z e . 11 Stop 2 me if I do it. !I 3 A. To use the m a t e r i a l in the o p e n , a n d * n o t n e a r 4 desirable or crop plants, ornamental or cultivated - ; !i 1'! 5 p l a n t s . It was to be u s e d m a i n l y on the r a n g e , o p e n 6 range conditions. , j 7 Q. In u s i n g t h i s m a t e r i a l , 2 , 4 - D , d i d y o u 8 get any of the s u b s t a n c e on your person? . 9 A . Not as I recall. I d o n ' t believe- so,: no. 1 0 N o t in- t h a t p e r i o d o f t i m e . Ii 1 1 Q. D u r i n g t h a t p e r i o d of t i m e d i d y o u 1 2 o b s e r v e any a d v e r s e h e a l t h e f f e c t s in c o n n e c t i o n 1 3 with the use of 2,4-D? 14 MR. O ' B R I E N : O b j e c t i o n . Y o u m a y a n s w e r . 1 5 A. No . 1 6 Q. L e t ' s g o b a c k to y o u r e m p l o y m e n t ; 17 c o m m e n c i n g a g a i n in 1 9 4 8 and m o v i n g o n w a r d . W h a t 18 w a s y o u r n e x t o c c u p a t i o n in 1 9 4 8 ? i; 1 9 A. I w e n t to T e x a s A & M U n i v e r s i t y in the 20 D e p a r t m e n t o f R a n g e a n d F o r e s t r y t h e r e . My^ j o b a l s o 2 1 was h a l f time t e a c h i n g in r a n g e m a n a g e m e n t and half 22 t i m e r e s e a r c h in w o o d y p l a n t c o n t r o l . 23 Q. T h a t w a s c o m m e n c i n g in 1 9 4 8 a n d e n d i n g 24 when? 25 A. E n d i n g in 1962. AA^i, w aga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters