Document 5XeXRbnkD9Jqbx854ZYJ519e

MARTINO f D 5/5/2001 Page I f IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA fc IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SAN FRANCISCO --ooc-- 6 7 8 9 I10 RICHARD YEAGER and SHIRLEY YEAGER, Plaintiffs, -vsUNION CARBIDE CORPORATION, Defendant. 11 ) ) ) ) ) ) No. 312960 ) ) ) ) 13 14 15 ' 16 [ h 3 DEPOSITION OF CARLO MARTINO VOLUME I Friday, May 4, 2001 (Pages 1 through 93) - -o0o- - E F V - t I ; j j i f Reported by: SHERRY SHERRY CSR NO. 5619 L v SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 "P" .............. (800) 547-4441 wmrr thitw T" ' A rrrr CAL [NORTH REPORT INC SERVlCl MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 h 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 I 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 i 24 25 INDEX Page 2 WITNESS: CARLO MARTINO - Volume I : t EXAMINATION BY: PROCEEDINGS MS. SHINING PAGE 5 9 PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBITS*: Description 1 Summary of Mr, Martino's background 2 Article on the rise of Bakelite and other plastics in the U.S. in the 1930s from an Internet site 11 12 (Exhibits not received via fax during the course of the deposition, and were discussed at the page indicated.) t * ..................... <i ^^1 ~~PPPP^~ l SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 ....................... I HIIMU'IIIIIIIJ (800) 547-4441 III I III I I I I 11 I I in CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 2 I I i 3 4 5 6 i 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 3 [, *s BE IT REMEMBERED that, pursuant to Notice of Taking Deposition, and on Friday, May 4, 2001, commencing at the hour of 3:23 p.m. thereof, at BRAYTON PURCELL, 222 Rush Landing Road, Novato, California 94945 before me, SHERRY SHERRY, CSR No. 5619, a Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for the State of California, there telephonically appeared CARLO MARTINO, h physically located at the Marriott Hotel, 110 Davidson i i % t Street, Somerset, New Jersey, was called as a witness by the Plaintiffs herein; who, having been first duly sworn, was thereupon telephonically examined and testified as is hereinafter set forth. th- f I -----oOo------ LAW OFFICES OF BRAYTON PURCELL, 222 Rush Landing Road, Novato, California 94945 by CAROLIN K. i: SHINING, Attorney at Law, and by JOHN GOLDSTEIN, Attorney at Law, appeared as counsel on behalf of the Plaintiffs; and LAW OFFICES OF HAIGHT, BROWN & BONESTEEL, LLP, rV 1620 26th Street, Santa Monica, California 90404 by BRUCE A. ARMSTRONG, Attorney at Law, telephonically iJ- ts t h appeared as counsel on behalf of the Defendant. LAW OFFICES OF KELLEY, DRYE & WARREN, 101 Park Avenue, New York, New York 10178 by JONATHAN GLASSER, ......................................................... 1 I I SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800) 547-4441 : j ; TF TT % CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 Page 4 1 Attorney at Law, telephonically appeared as counsel on 2 behalf of the Defendant. 3 -----oOo-----4 5 6 7 ii 8 9 ! io 11 12 13 14 * 15 16 17 18 19 20 2123 24 25 23 24 25 SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800)547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 Friday, May 4, 2001 Page 5 3:23 p.m. --oOo-- 3 (Reporter's Disclosure: I am an independent 4 Certified Shorthand Reporter representing CalNorth 5 Reporting Service. Neither CalNorth Reporting Service 6 nor I have an ongoing contractual relationship with any 7 party or legal representative to this action. I am an 8 impartial and unbiased reporter. This is being 9 disclosed with reference to California Certified 10 Shorthand Reporters' and National Court Reporters 11 Association's Code of Professional Conduct and CalNorth 12 Reporting Service's interpretation of Business and 13 Professions Code 8025(c).) 14 --oOo-- 15 PROCEEDINGS 16 MR. ARMSTRONG: This is Bruce Armstrong. I 17 represent Union Carbide Corporation 18 The deposition that we are here for today was 19 to start at three o'clock Pacific time. We came on line 20 about 3:15 and the reason that we were is because 21 we were in contact with the McKenna & Cuneo office 22 getting some information with regard to the offer of 23 proof which was to have been delivered to us by -- to 24 the McKenna & Cuneo law office by two o'clock today. 25 The information that we got indicates that 1vy >." SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 1 1 ........................ 11 u .......................................................................................M111 '-1.1111 TTTipi vy' (800) 547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 Page 6 r 1 Mr. Martino, the deponent here today, leads the list of ; 2 the evidence that the plaintiffs intend to offer, and at ' 3 this point I need a copy of that document before I Sh ' / 4 proceed with the deposition. So we are delaying the I _ j* 5 deposition to start at four o'clock today so that a copy j r h 6 can be faxed to me so that I can take a look at it f 7 before we commence the deposition. 8 MS. SHINING: Okay. This is Carolin Shining, 9 counsel for plaintiffs Richard and Shirley Yeager. ; |! |[ 10 I have no problem faxing a copy of that to 11 Mr. Armstrong, although at his direction I faxed it to 12 Lisa Oberg, and I don't believe the two issues here are 13 related. ' r * 14 This deposition, while the information of 15 Mr. Martino is listed in our offer of proof, that 16 information is going to be developed on 17 cross-examination and therefore the proceeding of this E ' j: i 18 deposition isn't related to what's in the offer of 19 proof. 20 I want to confirm with Counsel that I will not 21 be shorted time because of this delay, that previously 22 Miss Oberg stated in a letter that she was going to 23 unilaterally limit the length of the deposition to two 24 hours. I made no objection to that even though the 25 court did not impose that restriction due to the \ If I f t | | | h | I VF Y | [ b j "i SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800)547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 V v 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 7 j, interest of time, and I just want to ensure that I will ; . still at least at a minimum be entitled to take a full two hour deposition of Mr. Martino. / MR. ARMSTRONG: You will be entitled to two i L hours at some time. The two hour limitation was not set on by Miss Oberg's letter. That letter confirms the telephone conversation with you and I in which we agreed ; !; \ - that it would be a two hour deposition. MS. SHINING: That's not true whatsoever. You and I never discussed it. ! hh h h \ MR. ARMSTRONG: May I finish? MS. SHINING: Well I just don't want the record [ l f to reflect misstatements. ; MR. ARMSTRONG: Let me complete my statement. You get to complete your statements, too; okay? I/ - I think that's only fair. MS. SHINING: Well just pleasedon't -- : ; ' MR. ARMSTRONG: The telephone conversation -after which I wrote the letter that was signed by Miss Oberg and confirmed the telephone conversation that we had and confirmed the number of parts of the telephone : f ' ;i conversation. The deposition was specifically set at three o'clock today so that we would have an hour with the25 '1 offer of proof that the plaintiff was to serve on us SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800) 547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 Page 8 i- 1 before the deposition started. The offer of proof was i 2 actually served at 2:45 on the McKenna office, and I .! 3 have been in contact with them but I have not yet seen 4 it. 5 MS. SHINING: Well -- | 6 MR. ARMSTRONG: We need to see that before we j 7 can proceed with the deposition and the two are not 8 unrelated as you have stated. j 9 MS. SHINING: When will I get the - 10 MR. ARMSTRONG: They are related because, for 11 one thing, this case is over at, as it stands right now, 12 to only subject to the court's acceptance of your offer j 13 of proof and if that offer of proof is late or short and j 14 the court refuses to accept it for either of those 15 reasons then you have no right to go forward with the 16 deposition at all. But we are going to be looking at 1 t [ 17 the deposition, we will be back on the conference at 18 about four o'clock, assuming that it's out here so that 19 I can look at it, and we will at that time proceed with ! 20 the deposition. 21 MS. SHINING: Well now you're not willing to [ i 22 even admit that you are going to start the deposition at 23 all. So are you saying I will not get two hours of I 24 deposition today? T1 25 MR. ARMSTRONG: I think I told you that we will i t SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800)547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 have the two hours. Page 9 2 MS. SHINING: Today. 3 MR. ARMSTRONG: But I want to see the document 4 that you submitted before the deposition starts. 5 MS. SHINING: Well I can read you the single 6 sentence that refers to Mr. Martino right now and it will take less than 60 seconds. 8 MR. ARMSTRONG: I need to see the document. MS. SHINING: So we will get two hours today. t t 10 MR. ARMSTRONG: Ms. Shining, this is the third 11 time that I have affirmed that you will get two hours 12 today. 13 MS. SHINING: Great. Thank you. 14 MR. ARMSTRONG: All right. We will be back on 15 the conference call at four o'clock, assuming that the 16 document is here. 17 MS. SHINING: Thank you. 18 MR. ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 19 (Recess taken from 3:32 p.m. - 4:17 p.m.) 20 (All counsel stipulate to witness being sworn 21 telephonically.) 22 CARLO MARTINO 23 having been duly sworn, as follows 24 EXAMINATION BY MS. SHINING 25 MS. SHINING: Q. Good afternoon. Or good SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 > "y- (800) 547-4441 FTTT CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 evening, Mr. Martino. Page 10 2 A. Good evening. 3 Q. I would just .ask could you please identify all 4 the persons who are there in the room with you? Or 5 could maybe Mr. Armstrong do that? 6 MR. ARMSTRONG : Certainly. I am here. I'm 7 Bruce Armstrong. I represent Union Carbide. Jonathan 8 Glasser, G-l -a-s-s-e-r , is here. He also represents 9 Union Carbide, and Mr. Martino is here. 10 MS. SHINING: Who is Mr. Glasser employed by? 11 MR. GLASSER: Kelley, K-e-l-l-e-y, Drye & 12 Warren. 13 MS. SHINING: I have to keep you on speaker 14 phone because the court reporter's here, so if you coul 15 speak up a bit. 16 MR. GLASSER: Kelley, K-e-l-l-e-y, Drye & 17 Warren. 18 MS. SHINING: And is that a law firm? 19 MR. GLASSER: Yes it is. 20 MS. SHINING: Where is that law firm located? 21 MR. GLASSER: New York City. 22 MS. SHINING: Do you have the address? 23 MR. GLASSER: Sure. 101 Park Avenue. 24 MS. SHINING: And phone number. 25 MR. GLASSER: My phone number is 212/808-7583. SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 ^K PPI IMPPI I I IPI (800) 547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 Page 11 MS. SHINING: Q. Mr. Martino, can you hear me okay? Yes, I can. Q. I represent Richard and Shirley Yeager in the case. Where are you physically today? What's the address of the location that you're at? That's Marriott Hotel in Somerset. Do you want 8 the actual address? Q. Yes. 10 A. 110 Davidson Avenue, Somerset, New Jersey 11 08873 . 12 Q. Okay. Do you have any documents with you, $ 13 Mr. Martino? 14 A. Only a summary of my background and that's 15 about it. 16 Q. How long is the summary? 17 A. The summary of my background? 18 Q. Right. 19 About a page and a half but some of it probably 20 isn't relevant to your particular case. It involves my 21 experience in other plastic areas so it depends. I can 22 give it all to you or part. 23 I would like to mark that as an exhibit DO 24 you have any other documents with you today? 25 A. No Oh, just an article on the rise of SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800) 547-4441 P^PIPI ............................... ....... rT7TTy CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 Page 12 1 Bakelite and other plastics in the U.S. in the 1930s, 2 which I happened to be on the Internet. 3 Q. Do you have a web address for that article? 4 A. No, I don't. 5 Q. Okay. I would like to attach that as well to 6 the deposition. Are those the only two documents you 7 have with you? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. Have you ever been deposed before? 10 A. No, I have not. 11 Q. Okay. Have you ever testified at trial? 12 A. No. 13 Q. You hesitated a little bit. Is there a hearing 14 that might qualify as a trial? 15 A. No, I was just trying to search my memory. i, 16 Q. Okay. Well the time I have now is 4:18 Pacific 17 Standard Time and I understand that we're being limited 18 to two hours so I will try and be quick, but let me just 19 give you a few of the ground rules of how a deposition 20 rr E*P h h f- 21 Do you understand that you're sworn to testify 22 under oath under penalty of perjury of the laws of 23 California as if you were in a court of law? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And do you understand that if you need to take I I ii ii Mil SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 PM MUIIIMIIIHii I i i I | B 111 i | C i" i | i | 11 i | i i | i (800) 547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 2 3 s1 4 5 I i 6 7 8 , 9 10 11 12 i 13 14 15 Page 13 a break at any time you can just say so and we will r happily take a break and let you get a drink of water or stretch your legs? A. Okay. Thank you. ; r Q. And do you understand that particularly since we're on the telephoneyour answers to myquestions need to be audible; shrugs, gestures cannot be recorded by ' [ > h the court reporter? A. Yes. Q. And do you understand that if you don't [ i h h ir understand a question that I ask you can simply have me rephrase it and X will ask it in adifferent way? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Have you taken any medicationstoday that would affect your ability to remember facts and f | \ h j I 16 memories? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Can you think of any other reason why we 19 shouldn't go forward today with the deposition? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Okay. Since I don't have the summary ofyour 22 background and the article I would ask your counsel to 23 fax them to my office. If there's a way to do that 24 while the court reporter's still here she would f 25 certainly appreciate it so that she can make these | [ ; > j \ h || C j; h [ i |25 I SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800)547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 Page 14 exhibits to the deposition, and I would identify your background as Exhibit 1 and the article on Bakelite as Exhibit 2. Counsel, do you have a problem getting those faxed to our office? 6 MR. ARMSTRONG: I don't think so except it's 7 going to require me to be out of the room, or require 8 somebody out of the room. 9 MS. SHINING: Well perhaps Mr. Glasser can do 10 that while we continue because we're very short on time. r 11 MR. ARMSTRONG: We will get them faxed to you. 12 MS. SHINING: Okay. 13 Q. Mr. Martino, could you briefly tell me when 14 were you born? 15 A. March 27th, 1927. 16 Q. And where were you born? 17 A. Brockway, Pennsylvania. 18 Q. Is that Brockway with a "B"? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And did you attend an institute of higher 21 learning 22 A. Yes, I did. 23 Q. After high school where did you go to -- 24 A. Carnegie Mellon University. 25 Q. What was the highest degree you' ve obtained? ...... SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 ......... y/ I n," ....................... (800) 547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 Page 15 1 A. .A B.S. degree in chemical engineering in 1948. 2 Q. You don't have a master's or a Ph.D.? 3 A. No, I do not. 4 Q. Do you have any business training? 5 A. Not academy business training. l' L-1 i 6 Q. When did you begin your employment with 7 Union --- actually let me take that back. Have you ever 8 worked foor the Bakelite Corporation? 9 A. I started working for the division of 10 Union Caarrbide Corporation in August of 1948. 11 Q. Was that your first full-time employment after 12 college? 13 A. , it was. L-1 14 Q. Okay. How long did you work there? 15 A. Forty-seven years and eight months. 16 Q. Did you retire from Union Carbide's Bakelite 17 division? 18 A. It was no longer called the Bakelite division L-1 19 when I re 20 Q. So you retired from Union Carbide. 21 A. Right. 22 Q. When did it cease being called the Bakelite 23 division? 24 A. I don't recall when that happened officially. 25 Q. Do you recall the decade in which it happened? SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800) 547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 2 3 4 I 5 6 7 8 9 10 i 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 16 \\ A. What? j h h Q. Do you recall the decade in which it happened? A. It would be a guess. I really don't know. > sir. MR, ARMSTRONG: We don't want you to guess, If you can estimate, if you can do that that would | h :j h 1, he lp you out. MS. SHINING: Q. Can you make an estimate of the decade in which the name was not Bakelite unit j. p I/ - anymore ? A. Probably in the mid '70s. Yes. Q. Okay. A. That's when we went out of the business so it : ; "i !r would have to be about that. Q. Okay. What was your title when you started at Bakelite unit? j fi A. I started as a production trainee. Q. How long did you work in that role? I A. About nine months. [ Q. And then what was your next title? | A. I then was transferred to research and development and became a product development engineer in the polystyrene section. Q. And then what was your next title? A. I was -- Q. I am sorry, how long were you a product ' it t r h SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800) 547-4441 *TTT > CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 development engineer? Page 17 2 A. I was a product development engineer until 1958 i 3 when I was promoted to project scientist. 4 Q. How long were you a project scientist? 5 A. At that time I was assigned to the polyethylene 6 molded resin crew and I held that title for one year. E, 7 and then I was promoted to group manager in 1960 of the 8 Bakelite molding and laminating resins group. t 9 Q. Did you hold that title until the Bakelite unit 10 ceased existence? 11 A. Just before. In 1970 I was promoted to senior 12 group manager of that same group, and in 1974 I was l' 13 transferred to the low density polyethylene product 1 14 development group, and I think we went out of the 15 j 16 p 17 business shortly after that. Q. Okay. I've seen the use of initials called "BM" and "BR." Do those refer to the words Bakelite > h t + 18 molding and Bakelite resin? 19 A. Yes, they do. 20 Q. Okay. Did you work -- were -- was there more 21 than two plants that would relate to the Bakelite 22 I I 23 division for Union Carbide to your knowledge? MR. ARMSTRONG: Was it more than two plants? E t"t" h h E 24 MS. SHINING: Q. Do you understand the 25 question, sir? i f E h t t h P E r iE L V Ih p 1 SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800)547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 Page 18 | p t r 1 A. More than two plants or do you want to know how | 2 many plants? 3 Q. How many plants? ; : J 4 A. For molding materials there was only one plant 5 and that was in Bound Brook where I worked. For resins h \ > 6 there were -- there was one plant for some time, and 7 then a second one was built to make resins on the west | I 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 I 23 24 25 coast. Q. h Was the resin plant located also in New Jersey? A. Yes, it was in the same location. Q. Was there a plant in Bloomfield at all? A. That was a research laboratory. Q. Where was the plant in the west coast? A. Don't know the exact location. Q. Did you work primarily in the Bloomfield research plant? A. No I did not. Q. Where did you primarily work? A. We also had research there. Q. Did you also work in the BoundBrook plant? A. Yes. Q. How many researchers were there when you started at this Bound Brook plant? A. I would have to give you a rough estimate. , Probably about a hundred people. I | * + i i [ * * i[ i- j ! I i i i |* i >m i " 1 L11111 SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 q M q I M 11 I I I MJ (800) 547-4441 >. _ CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 Page 19 Q. Were there approximately 5,000 employees at that time at the Bound Brook plant? A. No, not that many. Q. Three thousand? 5 A. I would -- probably about 3300. I think that's 6 the highest number we ever reached. 7 Q. And approximately how many employees if you 8 know were there at the Bloomfield plant when you started 9 with Union Carbide? 10 A. Again I have to give you a rough estimate but 11 would say between a hundred and 150. 12 Q. Did you ever visit the Bellevilile plant in 13 Canada? 14 A. Yes, I did. 15 Q. Do you know when that plant was started? 16 A. No I don't. 17 Q. Was there also a facility eventually opened in 18 Mexico? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Did you ever visit that plant? 21 A. Yes, I did. 22 Q. And do you know when that plant was started? 23 A. That --no, I don't have a date for that 24 either. 25 Q. Okay. Do you have any patents to your name? ipp i p 11 m SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 Vnu1 M.MM I I l/.l,1 MW ....................... (800) 547-4441 h,imy ................................................. V r J.pp I PM II 1^ ' CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 A. Yes. h Page 20 | Q. How many patents do you have? A. About six. Q. Do you remember what years they were obtained A. Not exactly. The most recent was issued after 7 I retired. That would be 1996 or '97. F1 h h 8 Q. Do any of those patents relate to phenolic 9 resins? 10 A. NO. : 11 Q. So those were all post-Bakelite? r 12 A. Post and pre-Bakelite. 13 Q. Okay. When you say pre-Bakelite - 14 A. That was when I was in the polystyrene section. Q. Okay. So what year -- so when you were in h ! research and development as a product development engineer and as a project scientist you weren't involved 18 with Bakelite directly; is that correct? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. So you weren't involved with the product j I 21 Bakelite. A. Not directly, no. Q. Okay. So the first time you became directly f j + i 24 responsible for Bakelite products would have been when 25 you became a group manager in 1960? j h | . jy SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 Tff ppit;i i uppi ij P* PVPIMPPPI I III P I pmpi i IfH I I M l I I (800)547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTTNO 5/5/2001 Page 21 1 MR. ARMSTRONG: I am going to object to the question on the grounds it is vague and ambiguous. What do you mean by "directly responsible"? You can answer the question if you understand 5 it. THE WITNESS: I was responsible for some of the analytical services for Bakelite molding compound in 8 1959. I didn't mention that. Prior to my assignment as manager of the Bakelite molding and laminating group I 10 was manager of the polymer technical service group for 11 all of the Union Carbide products we were making at the 12 time. Included in those products were the Bakelite 13 molding materials. h C-? 14 MS. SHINING: Are you skilled in the use of 15 various types of microscopes? 16 A. Of micro what? 17 Q. Microscopes. 18 A. Microscopes? 19 Q. Right. 20 A. No, I'm not. I only use the standard 21 electronic microscope. 22 Q. Is that a transmission electron microscope or a 23 scanning electron microscope? 24 A. I really don't know. It, you know, I never r. 25 looked at it that closely, nor did I use it that mq n I M I H I M M I M I M I I I II I I I I I I I I I I I I n M I I I I...................... I | I................. r r _... i_. i>-i - J SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800) 547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE 4 MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 frequently. Page 22 1 Q. How often have you used an electron microscope? A. Probably a half a dozen times. Q. Do you remember the kind of image that the microscope gave? Was it a photograph or was it a - A. No, it was just an enlargement of whatever I was looking at on the slide. Q. Was the microscope you're referring to owned by t Union Carbide? A. Yes, it was. Q. Where was that microscope located? A. In one of our analytical laboratories. Q. And that's again in the Bound Brook plant? ft : A. Yes. Q. Do you know if that microscope is still in h.i> existence? A. No I don't. Q. Do you recall why you were using the electron microscope for the half dozen times that you used it? !- |> t A. No I don't. It was part of -- I don't remember the exact reason. Q. You don't recall if you were using it to look l Er1 1 E at whether or not asbestos fibers were being released from Bakelite products? A. No. E E ..........I 1 w ini iMPiq i> >ppi i in 'a SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800) 547-4441 ttrw 111 p pi m T PM11111141 \+ h h [ [I[ E { P L TT CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE 1 MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 i2 3 4 5 6 7 8 i 9 10 11 12 13 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 i i i 24 25 Q. You don't believe you were? Page 23 A. I don't think so. h Q. Have you ever used a Polarized light microscope to look at asbestos fibers as they are contained in Bakelite products? A. No. Q. Have you ever directed anyone on your staff to use either an electron microscope or a Polarized light microscope to look at asbestos fibers as they are contained in Bakelite products? h i E E h A. I have not. Q. Are you aware as to whether anyone at Union Carbide either under your direction or not has used a microscope to look at asbestos fibers as contained in Bakelite products? lt f [ i h A. The specific individual, no; that it was done, yes. Q. How do you know that it was done? r t,- E i i [ A. Because of discussions I had with people in the * analytical division. Q. How is the analytical division different from what you were involved in? A. The analytical division would do special testing for us and they had the facilities to do complete analyses if requested and on all products, not r h I I i f l h I I'VPI I SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800)547-4441 t e Ei p E[ CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE t MARTINO 5/5/2001 Page 24 1 just the Bakelite products. 2 Q. At the time that you recall learning that 3 asbestos fibers were looked at who was in charge of the f Ir t 4 analytical division? 5 A. I don't remember who was in charge. 6 Q. Do you recall the names of anyone who worked in 7 the analytical division? V 8 A. At that time? No. 9 Q. Would you agree that the members of the 10 analytical division would have a better understanding as 11 to -- well, strike that. 12 So you don't have any -- do you have any 13 understanding of the methods used by the analytical t l 14 division to view asbestos fibers in Bakelite? 15 A. Other than looking at them, the molded - r 16 sections of molded products, no. 17 Q. So you don't know if they used new ash 18 techniques? 19 A. No. 20 Q. You don't know if they used a midget impinger \ 21 to look at air samples released in the air? t{V> h 22 A. I doubt it because they didn't -- the work they 23 did had to be requested. 24 Q. So you don't know anything about the analytical r t 25 procedures that they used. SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800)547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 Page 25 1 A. No, and I can't say that they did use those 2 procedures for that purpose. 3 Q. Did you ever see a written report from anyone 4 from the analytical division on asbestos fibers and 5 Bakelite? 6 A. No I have not. 7 Q. So you would agree then that members of the 8 analytical division would have more information than you 9 with regard to how asbestos fibers are contained within 10 Bakelite. 11 MR. ARMSTRONG: Objection. Argumentative, and 12 I will instruct him not to answer. 13 You can rephrase that question I will let him. 14 MS. SHINING: Q. Do the members of the 15 analytical division have more information than you do 16 with regard to their testing of asbestos fibers? 17 A. No they do not. 18 Q. How -- well -19 A. As I stated -20 MR. ARMSTRONG: Just answer the question. 21 MS. SHINING: Q. Well I don't know that that 22 answer is responsive. If they gave him a report in an 23 oral report then certainly they did more than -- they 24 know what they did. You know, who knows what procedures 25 they used to give you that conclusion? SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800) 547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE Llu "MJ . J - -i< * . i * * * . * j ^-------------------------------------------------------------------------- ^ - ------- - --- - - * j.j.j.j- i > ------ " ~ --------------------- '-*-------------------* MARTINO 5/5/2001 iii " 1 2 3 i i 4 i 5 6 7 i i 8 9 10 11 12 13 i 14 15 16 i 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. ARMSTRONG: The answer was extremely Page 26 responsive. Do you have another question? MS. SHINING: Q. Okay. Who then at Union Carbide knows what procedures were used by the analytical division? A. I mentioned before that the analytical division did work for us at our request. We did not request such tests as you are referring to in your questioning. Q, Okay. What did you request that they do? A. I did not request any specific test. We on occasion asked them to look at samples under a microscope and report back. We did not ask them what to look for. Q. Did you make that request in writing? A. There was a form that was filled out for any requests we made of the analytical division. Q. And who would you give that form to? A. To whoever was in charge at the time. Q. who would know who would be in charge at the time of that? A. I have no idea. Most of those people retired. Q. Do you know who is the current head of the analytical division? A. Pardon me? Q. Do you know who currently is the head of the IJI ...................................................................................................................... .. III I II i SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 7"i.1 (800) 547-4441 [ CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 ! 17 h f 18 19 20 21 22 24 25 i i i analytical division? A. No I do not. Page 27 j The company was just bought by 1 L L [ Dow. Q. Who was the head of the analytical division when you retired? j L-1 A. I don't remember that either. Q. Do you know how long the analytical division keeps its records? j. I t A. No I do not. Q. Do you know if the analytical division would have kept any kind of written report regarding your request? A. They always sent us a report back and that would have been placed in the notebook of the person who made the request. Q. Would they have kept a copy? | ! [ "i [ h 1- h h | |^ h f ; 'i r ;? | MR. ARMSTRONG: Objection. Calls for conclusion. Speculation. You can answer the question if you know. ! t i i ;\ THE WITNESS: Would you repeat that question, please? MS. SHINING: Q. Would the analyticaldivision | E ft h | h | have kept a copy of the report that they sent to the person who requested the report? MR. ARMSTRONG: Same objection. | h h h [ I h t^ h SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800)547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 THEWITNESS: Idon't know. Page 28 I, ! 2 MS. SHINING: Q. Do you know who requested the | 3 report with regard to asbestos fibers? 4 A. I never said that werequested specifically 5 that they look for asbestos fibers. I said we would 1 ; 6 send samples over for their analysis. 7 Q. So you never asked them to look for asbestos 3 fibers in Bakelite. , 9 A. No. 10 Q. So when you say - - so do you know whether or I \ t p i e + j T h 11 not anyone has ever looked at asbestos fibers in 12 Bakelite? 13 A. To look specifically for fibers, no. 14 Q. So to your knowledge no one has ever cut a rj 15 piece of Bakelite and analyzed it to determine whether 16 or not asbestos fibers are released by the cutting of t t 17 that product. 18 A. No tests of that nature run while I was there. 19 Q. Do you know if tests of that nature have been !V h h t i h h C t 20 done since you've been there? 21 A. I do not. [ E 22 Q. Do you know if there were tests of that nature f h E 23 before you were involved with the Bakelite division as a l h i> J 24 group manager? t t E t 25 A. There were tests run of air samples in the area l t i ftHTTTTT SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 ifi in i mi (800)547-4441 L p E I III I I ii PI mi I wmi HIM I t ............................................. * CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 Page 29 1 when we performed various operations. Those never 2 I 3 showed asbestos in the air. Q. When you say "we" in your response, who are you t 4 referring to specifically? 5 A. My group. 6 Q. And did your group have a specific title at 7 that time? Es 8 A. Yes. The Bakelite molding and laminated resins i h 9 group. v i i' 10 Q. How many people were in your group as 11 employees? 12 A. It ranged anywhere from four to as many as 13 eight. 14 i i 15 16 Q. How many people were involved in the air sampling tests? A. When the test was run probably three. S l L !f h P [ I- 17 Q. Can you recall their names? 18 A. No. h T 19 MR. ARMSTRONG: I am going to object to this f 20 line of questioning as vague and ambiguous as to time. 21 MS. SHINING: Q. When were these tests run? L 22 A. They were run in the early 1970s when we became f t t li aware that asbestos might be a problem. There was no 24 reason to run them before that. 25 Q. Do you know if the three people who were ( h h t P P l i h [ 1 l I l ll PI4 IPPI11 I I II I I I M 11 "i SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 ihmppi \\\r\ M*PI I I I IP I (800)547-4441 TT1 mi i PIMM* l: i i' v 'j r b- I % [ i -r CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 !9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 involved in the testing are still employed by Union Carbide? A. I was there. Of course I am no longer an Page 30 f, Ir i employee, I am a retiree. I believe Doug Neal was there, and he is a retiree; and I don't recall who the third person was. f I\ ! [ Q. name? Do you recall how to spell Mr. Neal's last 1 j* A. N-e-a-1. Q. What was Mr. Neal's title? A. He was from the safety department. He was ! [ E h I. \ performing thefunction of asafetyengineer. ! Q. Approximately how many of these tests did you run? f A. We ran the test once and found no asbestos at all. Q. How many samples did you test? A. Samples were taken from various locations in 'r the room around whereourpeople wereoperating the equipment. I would guess maybe a half a dozen. ; Q. What equipment was used to perform the sampling? ; A. I don't know what the device was that Doug used or what it was called. Q. You don't know if it was called an impinger? SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800) 547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 11 ! 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 i 25 No I do not. Page 31 Q. Okay. What kinds of activities were being performed in the room that was being tested? A. We had asked the laboratory assistant to perform his normal molding operation with one of the formulations. Q. Do you recall the product number? The BM number of the particular formulation that was used? A. No. It was one that contained about five percent of percipio (phonetic) asbestos. Q. And can you describe what the normal molding operation that the lab assistant was performing? A. It would require a pallet of the granular material in a small press, taking that pallet and putting it into a radio frequency heating unit, which is similar to our present microwave, heating the material up to a certain temperature and then placing that pill in the molding press and forming a part. Q. So this was the actual molding process after the granular Bakelite material had actually been formed. A. That's correct. Q. Was any activity done to the molded product after it was already molded? A. No. Q. So there was no cutting of a finished Bakelite ......... SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 !............................... I 1,11 n yn .................... ..................Inj,...................... u -j i u (800) 547-4441 | p | | | !_ l l l .................... P I l I m P P I II M I I I Mr! I III rPMIM ppi.pil M I fp p | | p | p p | M i CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 ' 12 i 13 14 15 16 17 c 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 molded A. product tested. Not cutting. Molded product would have Page 32 j f> ; ;s some j* flash in the material that was extruded between the halves of the mold that would be removed. Q. How was that removed? j* j t* r ' A. Generally very brittle so it could be done by i hand. Just running a hand over the part. Q. So you didn't need to use sandpaper or a rasp? ! h h j, A. No. No. It was very easy to break off. Q. What was the size, if you can recall, of the molded part that was made? A. It was a size of an ashtray. In fact I think it was an ashtray. That was one of our test pieces. h h h |; Q. So it was circular in size? A. Circular with three indentations to hold the cigarette. ; ! . I' ^ h Q. Literally an ashtray. A. Yes. Q. No drilling of the product afterwards was r ^ | . performed and then samples taken? [ A. No. Q. Do you recall the timing of the samples during that procedure? MR. ARMSTRONG: Objection. Vague and ambiguous. The question, what you meanby timing in I j t j- SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800)547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 2 3 4 h 5 6 \i 1 8 i 9 10 11 12 i , I 13 14 c 15 ; 16 i 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that context? Page 33 ; i- ! MS. SHINING: Q. How long did this test take in total? : 5 r | A. About two, two hours. Q. Were the six air samples taken evenly spaced throughout the two hours? A. Yes. |j i c L j > Q. So every twenty minutes? A. About every 20 minutes. Q. Do you recall approximately the size of the j N r I room inwhich this activity was being performed? A. I would estimate about 15 feet wide and maybe 30feet long. Q. Do you recall any ventilation in this room? A. Yes. All our areas were very well ventilated. ; i. j ; h h p fi | 1 O. Was that ventilated with industrial air conditioning? Or were there additional fans provided 1 : for these spaces? ; A. No, we did not have air conditioning in the location. It was the state of the art ventilation equipment to keep the dust out of the air in the vicinity of the operator. js E' h Q. Do you know the method by which -- I am sorry -- did Mr. Neal thentake air samples and view them himself? r I : | [1 !^ t h h \ SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800)547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 Page 34 ;s 1 A. I don't know where he had samples analyzed. 2 Q. So you had nothing to do with the analysis of 3 the samples. 4 A. No I did not. He reported back to me the ; "i ,/ ' . [' 5 results. I 6 Q. And can you recall precisely what his results 7 were as he reported them to you? 8 A. No asbestos particles were measured. 9 Q. Are those the exact words as you remember them? 10 A. I don't -- I may have -- I don't remember his 11 exact words but that was the result. 12 Q. Do you remember if he used the term "threshold 13 limit value"? 14 A. Yes. He mentioned that there was a threshold 15 limit value and that we were well below that. 16 Q. Did he use the term "permissible emission 17 limit"? Or P-e-1? 18 A. That I am not familiar with. But threshold 19 value was. 20 Q. Okay. Do you remember anything else that he 21 said besides that you were well below the threshold 22 limit value? 23 A. No, that was it. 24 Q. Did Mr. Neal provide you with anything in 25 writing regarding the results? SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 V...........................................L- ,.-.....-...., (800) 547-4441 .................................I ..................... CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 2 3 t I 4 5 6 I I I i I 7 8 9 10 i 1 11 12 13 I 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. No he did not. Page 35 Q. Do you know if he reduced any of the results into written form? A. I have not been able to locate any written statements. Q. Have you recently attempted to locate any written statements? A. I think others have. We have not located it. Q. Who did Mr. Neal report to at that time? A. I don't recall the individual. Q. At the time of your retiring did Union Carbide still have a safety department such as that Mr. Neal worked for? A. Oh, yes. Much bigger. Q. Who was the head of the safety department when you left? A. I don't recall his name. Q. Okay. Do you recall the head of the safety department when Mr. Neal was working with you in 1970? A. No, I do not. Q. Okay. I would like to shift gears a little bit and talk about Bakelite itself. Mr. Bakeland was actually named as -- do you know if he was one of the "'Time' 100s Men of the Century"? A. I knew he was very famous. I didn't know that rrwTrrr SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800) 547-4441 ..................J CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 I ! . ............................................................................ .... * J i i i M I I I I I f f T T T W J T T T T T T I . I I I I h I I I I 1 (i 2 |3 [ i 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 i 12 13 14 15 i 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 he received that award. Page 36 Q. And are you familiar with the chemical formulations for Bakelite from your work from 1959 through the 1970s? A. Yes. Q. And you're familiar withthe various fillers that are used in Bakelite products? A. Yes I am. Q. Do you have anyknowledge as tothe fillers that were used and the product formulations that were used in the period when the Bakelite unit was owned actually as a part of the Bakelite Corporation? A. That was before 1948 so I don't know what was done in that period of time. Q. Have you ever viewed, since 1959 have you viewed files or formulas that relate back to product formulations that are earlier, from those earlier time i periods before Union Carbide bought Bakeland? A. No I did not. Q. What's the earliest product formulation that you have seen in your experience with Bakelite? A. Some of the formulations that were sold in the 1950s. Q. Now I have seen, we talked briefly about the BM product naming system. Do you have an understanding as I I II I I I II I I I I I fffiV T W V W T m ffM iu rM IM M V m if SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800)547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 : 20 21 22 23 24 25 i i to when that system was started? Page 37 A. When it was started, no- But it was in existence in the '50s. Q. Do you recall the numbers in sequence? Did they change as new product formulations were being invented? A. There were two ways of changing. If it was a minor modification intended to displace the existing material a fourth letter was added to the designation. In other words, it was BMG 5000, a minor modification that was to replace the original would be called BMGA 5000 until it became established. Then the old product was obsolete and the new product was introduced and the "A" was dropped. The other was that it was a entirely new compound it would receive a new four letter designation. Q. When you say "four letter designation" do you mean -- A. I mean four number, I'm sorry. Q. Right. So it would be BM and then four digits A. Right. Q- Are you familiar with products that only had three digits? A. Not in the phenolic molded material. Q. Have you ever seen products that had BM-100 or SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800)547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 BM-200? Page 38 A. No 3 Q. Were product numbers ever phased out? 4 A. Yes, they were. p >[ 5 Q. How was a product number phased out? 6 A. The customer was notified that it would be 7 obsolete and removed from our product mix and then it 8 would be dropped. He would be given enough to time to t. 9 find a substitute. 10 Q. Would records with regard to those obsoleted 11 formul l 12 A. They were for awhile. Whether they still exist 13 or not 14 Q. Where were they maintained? t> 15 A. While we were in the business at Bound Brook. E 16 Q. Whose office would they be maintained by? 17 A. The manufacturing department would have a file 18 of all the formulations that were purged. The obsolete 19 file wwould probably remain there for a short period of l- 20 time. 21 Q. Who would be in charge of keeping that file? 22 A. The product scheduler. i; 23 Q. Do you know who was the product scheduler in 24 1959? 25 A. No I don't. t-' r.-V SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800) 547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 Page 39 h 1 Q. Do you know who any of the product schedulers 2 were at any time? 3 A. I knew them at that time but I don't remember ' L 4 their names. Forty-seven years is a long time and a lot _ 5 , l 6 Q. I understand there may be a lot of questions I ' 7 ask that you might not have memory of so I appreciate 8 you bearing with me. 9 So do you have any memory as to the use of 10 asbestos in Bakelite formulations prior to when you h h k I t" h h : 11 started working with Bakelite? 12 A. Prior, no. ; t t 13 Q. Do you have any understanding that you gained j h f 14 after 1959 of Bakelite formulations, again that were in S i 15 existence prior to 1959? h | 16 A. I am sorry, I didn't understand that. What do 17 you mean by understanding? h + i | Q. Well, after you started working directly with | 18 h E 19 Bakelite in 1959 did you learn about what formulations 20 were used before 1959? ; t f l | 21 A. We never went back and got the old 22 formulations. We worked with what we had. E h f h + c h 23 24 25 i i i E Q. Do you recall in 1959 and 1960 which of the formulations were started at what time? A. Most of what we worked with had been developed h | l t Jf p I * i n-ir SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800)547-4441 e E CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 Page 40 1 in the '50s and then we continued to develop our own after that. What I can't tell you is were any of those in the '50s extensions of what was made in the '40s. Q. Do you know who Robert Butler is? A. No I donr t. Q. You have never heard his name before? A. It -- not -- I don't remember meeting him 8 Q. Do you ever recall speaking to Mr. Butler at 10 all? 11 A. I don't. f 12 Q. Do you know if Mr. Butler has more knowledge of 13 the products and formulations for Bakelite with regard 14 to the asbestos containing Bakelite? 15 MR. ARMSTRONG: I will object to that question 16 as calling for conclusions, speculation and silly. If 17 he doesn't know Mr. Butler he can't possibly know 18 whether he knows more about formulations or not. 19 MS. SHINING: Q. Well do you know who 20 Mr. Butler is? 21 A. No I do not. 22 Q. Do you know whether he's provided government 23 agencies with information on the asbestos contained in 24 Bakelite? 25 No I do not. L SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 1.. . (800) 547-4441 Jr* " CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 Q. Do you know who Clinton W. Blount is? Page 41 2 A. Clinton W. who? 3 Q. Blount, B-l-o-u-n-t, or C.W. Blount. 4 A. Seems that there was a vice-president named r> 5 Blount, i-l-o-u-n-t. Is that the one you were referring 6 to? 7 Q. Well, so you have heard of him. t 8 A. I have heard of a vice-president Blount. 9 Q. Okay. Did you ever meet him? 10 A. If it was the same person you're referring to, 11 yes. 12 Q* Okay. Person from Texas? 13 A. The Blount that I know was vice-president in 4 14 charge of sales in the early '50s. t l l T> 15 Q. And do you know or did you have any information 16 that he was an Annapolis graduate from the Navy Academy? 17 A. No. + 18 Q. Have you ever spoken to him? 19 A. Again if it's vice-president Blount, yes. 20 Q. How many occasions did you speak with him? 21 A. Whenever the vice-president would visit Bound 22 Brook for technical presentations and I was involved in 23 the tecchnical presentation he was usually present. Now 24 if youu''re talking about the same individual. You know 25 Blount SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 IM MIIIUMIU iimwi 1111111 imp rr ^ (800) 547-4441 ........... CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 2 i !3 !4 I I 5 6 1 I i 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 i 19 20 21 22 23 I 24 25 Q. Did the Blount that yourecall ever ask you about the use of Bakelite products in the Navy? Page 42 j p h ; i : " A. No. Q. Do you recall a fellow named Winfield Cooper? I t h |r A. No I don' t. / Q. Did you ever know a fellow named William Huey? A. Could you repeat the lastname, please? Q. H-u-e-y, Huey. \t + ) A. No. Q. Did you ever know an individual named Harry J. Macgowen? A. Macgowen's familiar but I cannot place -- place him or what he did. Q. Are you familiar that he was also in the sales department? A. I don't remember, you know, where he was located but I do recall a name of Macgowen somewhere along the line there. Q. Did sales representatives come into the ; research facility for training on an annual basis? A. Not necessarily on an annual basis but they did come in for training whenever a sales manager decided they needed it. f c h \ Q. And it was the practice of the Bakelite division to provide the Bakelite salespeople with some SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 f> I PHI *1 I IMH I I I I I I I I I Mil I I I I I I I (800) 547-4441 H'PI I I I I I I I P | | PI1 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 2 I 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Page 43 | * technical information on the products they were selling? A. Yes. Q. And the salespeople would actually get to assist and run different kinds of tests on Bakelite as part of that training. A. If they werenew sales employees they would get . r 1 _ > P r . t r+ t ic j that kind of training. The experienced sales trainees j would not. Q. When you were employed at the Bakelite division h h + | was there a department called development laboratories? A. Yes. j [ j' 12 3 13 14 Q. What was the development laboratories? A. Research and development was divided into those two departments, a research department and a development i [ j h t I t 15 department. 16 Q. Which department did you specifically work for 17 when you were with the Bakelite product? 18 A. Development department. They were later 19 consolidated into one. 20 Q. Do you have an understanding as to when they 21 were separate what theseparate responsibilitieswere? 22 A. Yes. The development department was 23 responsible for taking resin technology that was 24developed and applying and finding uses for it. The 25 research department had the responsibility to find new : t ch h f I I j 1, ' + t h [ c 'r ! i i [ + % j h h ' tI ; e t p j` i ! t t p rh t ht I SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800)547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 plastics. 2 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with the Brown Page 44 j t > 3 brothers? Gordon and Sanford? 4 A. I heard of them. I believe they were in the l 5 vice-presidental -- both vice-presidents. 6 Q. Did you ever meet them? 7 A. I don't recall meeting them, no. 8 Q. Did you ever meet Dr. Bakeland's son George 9 Bakeland? 10 A. His son? 11 Q. Right. t l> h h i> 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did you ever meet Dr. Leo Bakeland? 14 A. No. He was a legend. We never knew when he 15 would appear and I never had the opportunity. 16 Q. Do you recall a fellow named Jack M. Fenlin? 17 A. Jack? Repeat that please. 18 Q. Fenlin, F-e-n-l-i-n? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Do you know an individual named W.R. Catlow, 21 C-a-t- 1-o-w? 22 A. Yes, I do. 23 Q. Is Mr. Catlow still living? 24 A. I don't know. t i- 25 Q. What was Mr. Catlow's responsibility at n*wm miii ||l II n I I I I I Mill SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 wiwm MUM TTTr (800) 547-4441 ......................... < CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 2 3 4 5 6 L F 7 8 9 10 V h 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 i 25 Page 45 [ Bakelite? A. He was an associate director of research and ii- development when I was there. He later was assigned to do various jobs on the site. He had the secretarial ? i !- pool reporting to him and he did numerous technical responsibility. cE Q. So he was kind of higher up? A. He was associate director, yes, but he was shelved when they decided to reorganize. +J- f Q. Did you ever work for Mr. Catlow? A. No I did not. Q. So he was in the other side of the -- he was in research and you were in development? A. No, he had some responsibilities in the development side during part of his career. i S c .r Q. Do you know if some of those responsibilities involved working with customers to meet their specifications and answer their questions? A. During the time I knew him, no. Q. Would individuals after 1959 in the development laboratories ever have as part of their responsibilities working with customers and answering inquiries from L I. < people with regard to the use of Bakelite products? A. Would they after 1959? Q. Right. t ii .......................................... I MliiillH i|ii ii I II ill 111 i i SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 t (800) 547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 4 5 6 7 8 10 ! 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yes, that was part of our job, Page 46 Q. Okay. Do you know if it was part of that department's job before you became involved with it? A. Yes. Q. And was it? A. Yes. Q. Are you familiar with an individual named Howard Smith? !> A I have heard that name and I have probably met him but I don't recall his position and what his responsibilities were. Q. Do you know if he was a manager in varnish resin sales? A. In varnish resin sales? Q. Right. A. I do not know. Q. Graham? Have you ever heard of an individual named * A. D.P. Graham, no. Q. Did you ever know an individual named N.D. Hanson? A. H-a-m-p-s-o-n? Q. No, H-a-n-s-o-n. A. Oh, yes. Yes, Q. Who was Mr. Hanson? " riT.T1T>_ri.iy... %--- SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 PMP. .IIIMI MVM -y I I V-l iyj.1 ' ' IV" UP'!' (800) 547-4441 V ' '.1.- r - CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 | 18 i Ii j 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 47 \ A. He was responsible for the development of laminating resins the late -- during the '50s. He was replaced by a man working for me when I became the group manager. Q. Do you know if Mr. Hanson ever communicated with the Navy with regard to the use of Bakelite L iC ; s i1, r | ; "i products? | A. If he did it would be with regard to the use of laminating resins in laminates, and that would be only in order to get products specified. Q. Do you know if Mr. Catlow ever communicated with the U.S. Navy? E E, # t h h h : c > A. No, I don't but as I recall he was primarily in the -- when he did have any responsibilities in the service that area it was in the resin area, not the molding area. Q. When you were employed as group manager for Bakelite who would have been responsible for answering inquiries from the Department of Ships at the U.S. Navy? t t !> A. It depended on the inquiry. If it was more the mold -- the approval of a molding material I would probably get involved in that or one of the people working for me but I would be aware of it. E h i h h E h E If it was for a laminating resin another man in my group would get involved in that. For other resins E\ + t t t h ;> h h hc < SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 ill PPII 1111 > r "t PI \J I (800) 547-4441 m-PT CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 i 2 Page 48 it would go to whatever group had that responsibility, Q. Do you recall ever being asked by the Navy for ; 3 4 5 I i i p I6 7 informationonproducts that were designatedby the * classification type? MFE A. I have seen specifications like that and I do recall beingasked by the salesdepartmentabout whether or not we would qualify under those specifications. | 1 r u r : : 1 1 1 j i 8 `9 I 10 Q. Is that true for the MFH type classification n also if youcanrecall? A. I don't recall because they had various \ ; : h 11 I i 12 13 classifications and what I would -- would be can we meet this particular classification and become approved under it? So it would depend on what the salesperson at the | t- t 14 i 15 time was trying to get approval for. Q. Okay. So you do recall communicating with the ; 16 17 i [i 18 i i 19 Navy at some timewith regard to type MFE and MFH materials? A. That I can't answer because I don't remember the exact specifications that came up when I was - t u 20 I 21 involved. i Just to clarify a point, I did not deal ' | T j, |e 22 directly with the Navy, It was usually to our sales 23 department that we dealt with whatever contact they j 24 L 25 developed or our customer developed. r Q. That was the sales department, you said? iS j: SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800) 547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 Page 49 r 1 A. Sales department or the customer. Most often i 2 3 4 5 t 6 it was the customer would go back to the salesman and ask if we had a product that would meet that specification that hecould use. Q. So when you say "customer" you're referring to a specific molder -- f h [- r* j: r ; 7 A. That's correct. i8 i Q. So you would dealwith 9 then deal with the Navy. the molder whowould ; h j ] 10 i 11 k 12 i ! 13 A. That's right. Q. Okay. But you didhave an understanding that at some point the customers of Bakelite were dealing with products that were destined for use in the Navy? 14 MR. ARMSTRONG: Objection. Calling for 15 conclusion, speculation. And it's also irrelevant. ^ L t | t i r ' _ 16 You can go ahead and answer as far as you know 17 subject to those objections. ; > [ I 18 THE WITNESS: The approval -- government | 19 approval did not necessarily mean just Navy, you know, 20 the government approval applied to all parts of the . 21 service. ' 22 i p 23 MS. SHINING: Q. I am sorry, sir, you need to speak up just a little bit more. 24 A. Yeah. The government approval did not 25 necessarily -- were not necessarily limited to just SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800)547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 , 2 3 4 i 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 . 15 16 17 ! 18 19 20 21 h 22 23 24 25 dealing with Navy. Page 50 [ N ! Some of the* approvals were broad [ L enough so they applied to all- of the services, v Q. Okay. But you did understand that some of the products the molders were manufacturing using Bakelite materials were destined for use in the Navy? MR. ARMSTRONG: Objection. h * ; \ j f THE WITNESS: going to get them. I was never told what service was h ! I MS. SHINING: Q. Did you have an understanding that some of the products would be suitable for uses in the U.S. Navy? ; * A. If they met the specification the conclusion was that they would be. Q. Do you have any understanding as to whether Bakelite products as molded by your customers would meet the mineral filler type specifications for phenolic molded materials? MR. ARMSTRONG: Objection. Vague and ambiguous and incomprehensible. I don't understand that question. I don't know that Mr. Martino does but if I don't I am not going to let him answer it. THE WITNESS: Yeah, I don't either. MS. SHINING: Q. Do you know what a mineral filler is, Mr. Martino? A. Absolutely. SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800) 547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 l 24 i 25 Page 51 Q. And do you know that certain mineral filler phenolic materials were approved for use by the U.S. Navy? MR. ARMSTRONG: Objection. Vague and ambiguous as to the meaning of mineral filler -- whatwas the phrase you used? j l [ j- h h h [ i MS. SHINING: Q. Well, sir, I will rephrase. Tell me what is a mineral filler in your understanding? A. Exactly that. It covers a number of different [ r minerals. It can be mica, calciumcarbonate, calcand ; asbestos and it can even be glass. Q. And do you have any knowledge as to whether or not Bakelite products using asbestos would meet the mineral filler specifications of the U.S. Navy? MR. ARMSTRONG: Objection. Vague and ambiguous as to the meaning of the word Bakelite in the last context. r ; p i h h h b hI' h I I C E . h I h h ! t h h ( . ; Are you referring to trademark Bakelite or are you referring to generic Bakelite? MS. SHINING: Q. Sir, do you understand the ; i> I ;s question? THE WITNESS: Please rephrase that. MS. SHINING: Q. Do you have any understanding r . as to whether any phenolic resin product manufactured by |; hji i E SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800)547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 Bakelite qualified under the mineral filler Page 52 2 specifications of the U.S. Navy? 3 A. No I do not. 4 Q. Do you -have any knowledge as to whether anyone 5 at Union Carbide at any time had knowledge as to whether 6 or not Bakelite products containing asbestos met the 7 mineral filler specifications? 8 A. Unless we were requested to obtain approval 9 under that specification we would not have been on the 10 approved list so without seeing specifications and the 11 approved list I can't answer that. 12 Q. Is there anyone else that would have more 13 knowledge about that subject than you? 14 A. At this stage I can't think of anyone. 15 Q. When you say "at this stage," are there persons 16 who are now deceased who would have had more knowledge 17 p [ i 1 18 about that subject than you? A. Someone in the sales department would keep a : ; > 19 I 20 21 record of our approvals.Probably themarketing manager j so that he could respond to requests and he would refer to that list but where that list is now I don'tknow. 1 : b E I 22 Q. Who would have been the marketing manager s 23 responsible for phenolic resin molded products when you 24 joined Bakelite in 1959? 25 A. Peter Potter. I * j p I| L-. i I.............................................................. ..... II | | nil i | (Ml1 I I i"__i l, ^ -1 SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 I' ! w****-m***m*^^^m^TVTrrTr*rTrT1**r*TT*rvr****vr**rvr+**+**`l'l W H I II I I 111 PM 1 I i" ^ r n ' 1 M I 11 I IM11 I ~ r 1 1 ~ V..........................................................1 "" (800)547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 i 8t t 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 i 25 Q. Is that spelled just as it sounds? Page 53 A. Pardon. Yes, P-o-t-t-e-r. Q. How long had he been the marketing manager? If you know. A. Probably about the same period of time as I was -1 in charge of the group. Q, Was he employed there when you started with the Bakelite division in 1959? k A. Yes. t. Q. Was he employed -- do you know when he started with Union Carbide? A. It was a little before 1948. Exactly what date I don't know. Q. Was he always engaged in marketing? A. Oh, no. He was in research and development just like I was. In fact my boss for a short period of FV time. Q. When didhe switch into marketing? A. In 1960. Oh, I am sorry, let me takethat back. He was first product manager in R&D and then after that he became marketing manager within a couple of years, I believe. Q. So some time in the 1950s? A. Yes. Oh, this was in the 1960s, early 1960s. Q. Do you know who he replaced? I [ [ k t E E h l P pi I I I i III...................... .. i i ................................ I|IW H PI I IPI I I I A i | i i ............................. SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 - im i pp i mii -r wrr (800) 547-4441 i E s n i iui 1111.........................win ip............................................... _ , "1 imu 1 - AJ CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 2 3 4 5 i 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 i 16 17 18 19 20 Ij 1 21 22 23 24 P i 25 A. No I don't. Page 54 Q. Okay. Do you know if Mr. Potter is still living A. Yes he is. Q. Does he live in New Jersey? A. No, he's in Connecticut. Q. When was the last time you spoke with Mr. - A. I am not sure what his address is. Q. Okay. A. I am not sure where he is located right now Q. When was the last time you spoke with him? A. I received a card from him when I retired. 1996. Q. Have you ever heard the name J.W. McLaughlin? A. I have heard the name. I do not know what he did or where he was located. Q. Did you ever know a Kenneth Atkins? A. Q. Is Mr. Atkins still employed by Union Carbide? A. I don11 know. Q. What was Mr. Atkins' job? A. Oh, he has many different jobs. He was in the sales department for a short -- for awhile. Transferred to prooduction for awhile and then became a marketing r mmaannaaggeer in Danbury for awhile. - -i ' i ' . PI | i if i u 1111 1111 PPM I I M I I MMI I i SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 ..... (800) 547-4441 WH H I I I I I I I I CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARHNO 5/5/2001 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9i 10 11 12 E 13 14 15 16 I I 17 18 h 19t i 20 21 22 23 24 i 25 Page 55 ' And then he had a job with the polyethylene business when I was first there. Q. Do you know when he started his employment with Union Carbide? A. It was after I started. It would be in the ' r l. ij r early 1950s. Q. Do you know who Raymond Gandy is? A. No. Q. Are you familiar with the publications of I I I |: t Raymond Seymour? A. Raymond what? ; : i Q. Seymour, S-e-y-m-o-u-r? A. NO. L j Q. You don't recognize him as an author of textbooks on polymer science? h * A. No. Q. Did you ever have an opportunity to see Bakelite as it was packaged for shipping to customers? p. 1: r, A. Yes. | Q. Would you see that in the Bound Brook plant? A. Yes. Q. How was the Union Carbide Bakelite packaged before it was shipped? f = E : A. The phenolic molding materials were packedinto 50-pound bags. They were paper bags lined with SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800) 547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 i Page 56 1 I i i 3 polyethylene. They had polyethylene liners in them. They at one time were also packaged in large cardboard drums with steel tops and bottoms. Those were =' r., h ! | 4 probably held about 250 pounds. : 5 i 6 I 7 And then they were packaged in what we call Gaylord containers. These were about six feet square and they held almost a thousand pounds and they were ; h h : 8 strapped to a pallet. 9 Q. Are you familiar with any tags that were placed j 10 on Bakelite products at any time? 11 (Interruption at the door.) 12 THE WITNESS: -- labels but you know the specification of what was on those labels I may not 13 [ j 14 recall entirely. MS. SHINING: Q. Are you familiar at all with 16 the labeling requirements or the labeling that was done 17 during the 1940s? 18 A. The 1940s? No. ; 19 Q. Are you familiar at all with the appearance of [ 20 packaging labeling, during the 1950s? | 21 MR. ARMSTRONG: Well I am going to object to 22 that question, and move to strike the answer to the j > | 23 )i i i 24 i 25 prior question also asserts the objection. The question is vague and ambiguous as to what you mean by labeling [ i 'L requirements and it may well be argumentative because I ; : TTTTTTWTTITTT SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800)547-4441 [ [ t h i 'P*PI i.MPIVIMMI.I i im [ CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 Page 57 ; h h 1 am not sure that there were any labeling requirement. > 2 I'll object on those two bases. r p 3 You can go ahead and answer the question, 4 Mr. Martino, if you can. 5 THE WITNESS: All I can remember is that there ii. j V ' 6 would be the material designation on the bag and 7 Bakelite on it. ; 8 MS. SHINING: Q. And is that the word 9 "Bakelite" in black letters, 10 A. It -- I don't recall the color. 11 Q. Do you recall what it looked like, the word 12 "Bakelite"? 13 A. It was printed in large letters. It was the 14 designation of the product. That was put on all of our 15 phenolic products, even the phenolic resins. 16 Q. Are you familiar with the magazine "Modern 17 Plastics"? 18 A. Yes I am. 19 Q. And have you seen advertisements for Bakelite 20 in "Modern Plastics" magazine? 21 A. I don't recall -- well, it depended. The 22 advertising was placed in that magazine by our marketing 23 manager when he felt it was appropriate. I don't recall 24 when it was. 25 MR. ARMSTRONG: Ms. Shining, can we take five m>i 11 i 11 SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800) 547-4441 ............. PII i I II i 1 J CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 minutes when you come to a convenient spot? Page 58 2 MS. SHINING: This is a convenient spot. 3 (Recess taken.) 4 MS. SHINING: Q. Mr. Martino, what kind of 5 involvement did you have with the manufacturing side of 6 Bakelite? 7 A. Our responsibility was to take the formulations 8 we developed, take them to the manufacturing department, h 9 supervise the first run of the material on the equipment 10 to ensure that they could be run properly with no 11 difficulty. Once that was demonstrated the 12 responsibility to produce the material was taken over by 13 the manufacturing department. ,, Q. About how many times during your career at 15 Union Carbide did you supervise the first run of a new 16 Bakelite formulation? 17 A. , Many times. Now I did some myself and the 18 people who reported to me did many others but I would 19 estimate probably every two months there would be a 20 production run of a fair amount of material. * 21 Q. Now I just want to make clear, I am not sure I 22 asked the specific question, but who would -- would the 23 development laboratory keep a copy of the formulations? 24 I think you mentioned that they were copies were kept in r 25 the manufacturing side but did you also keep a copy of ' .................................................................................................................................................................................. mm....................up..................................................................................................................................................................................... ...................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................."in................. ' ............--..................................................... ..................................... ...........................................- - ................................................................................................. ........................... o................................................ ^ *, ................... ^ ' SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800)547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 those formulations? Page 59 I 2 A. Those that were on the product list that we 3 sold customers we did, yes, and also all the 4 experimental formulations. 5 Q. When you retired who was responsible for 6 maintaining -- I am sorry -- when the Bakelite division was phased out who was responsible for keeping that 8 information? A. I don't know. There was a group leader that 10 took oo ver -- the group manager who took over for me was 11 Mark SS auers and he was --he was in charge when the 12 busine 13 Q. How do you spell Mr. Shaller,* is that the name? 14 A. S-a-u-e-r-s. 15 Q. Do you know if Mr. Sauers is still employed by 16 Union 17 A. He is not. 4 18 Q. Do you know if he's retired? 19 A. No. He went to work for Amoco. Last I heard 20 he was a sales manager in Europe for them. 21 Q. In Newark? 22 A. In Europe. 23 Q. In Europe. 24 A. 25 Q. When is the last time you spoke with lir HPPIMI IUI I I I rr^ * SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 "7* M I IP I I M P I I (800) 547-4441 i^-pi m-j i I P P PM.' CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO t L i, 1 I 21 i I Mr. Sauers? A. About 15 years ago. 5/5/2001 h Page 60 3 Q. Have you reviewed or seen any submissions from 4 I [I 5 t t 6 Union Carbide to a governmental agency with regard to the formulations of Bakelite? 7 i lI i 8 Q. Can you recall which Bakelite materials had asbestos as a part of their formulation? A. Do I recall which -- would you repeat the * question, please? Q. Which Bakelite product numbers -- and I am sorry, you actually used a term to refer to that BM designation. What did you call that? li- A. For the experimental? MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. \ MS. SHINING: Q. Or just the regular. A. Oh, "B" for Bakelite, "M" is for molding. Or 18 if it's "R" it's resin, and the third letter is the form 19 that it's in, granular is "G." "S" is solvent. "P" is 20 pulverized. Q. What's a "C" stand for? A. "C"? BMC? Q. Right. Well what would, let's say, something ! h h h P j. 25 i i I as B-M-M-C; what would that mean? A. I believe we used "M" at the end of the period j h j T E- i ij mui imi,1111 SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800)547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 we were in the business for a special granulation. Page 61 I don't recall exactly what it was, whether it was an injection molding or the purpose but it was a change, a minor change in the granular form, Q. How about BM -- well, did you ever see product designations that had four letters and four numbers? A. Yes. As I mentioned to you earlier, the fourth letter was supposed to mean experimental; "A" would be for the first change, "B" for the second, "C" for the third. The intent was that the experimental formulation would eventually replace all the previous ones and then the third letter -- the fourth letter would be dropped. Sometimes they couldn't do that because the customer refused to give up the old formulation. Q. Do you remember when -- well, when you began t> working with the Bakelite group in 1959 is it your understanding that certain formulations were being commercially' produced that had asbestos as a filler? 4 Q. And do you have an understanding as to when asbestos was first used as a filler in Bakelite products by Union Carbide or Bakelite Corporation? A. It was used while I was there in some formulation. Not all formulations. I don't know what happened before 1948. SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 TWI I U IMP PI n . _ i pi ipm i M 1111 ii 111 -V.1 - - r.. (800) 547-4441 "7* iupm.il piiiji CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 Page 62 1 Q. So it was used at least as early as 1948? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What is the source of your memory with regard 4 to products made in 1948? 5 A. Since I was not directly involved in the 6 business it was more what I observed and what I saw when 7 I went through the department as a production trainee. 8 So it was not as detailed -- I'd say especially at that 9 point, not as detailed. When I was in the business and 10 responsible for it then I became very knowledgeable in 11 the area. 12 Q. Okay. Do you recall today what product 13 formulations or product designations from Union Carbide 14 or the Bakelite unit were asbestos containing? 15 A. I can remember some of the numbers. There were 16 about a dozen. 17 Q. What are the numbers you recall? 18 A. BMG 5138, BMG 5440, 5333. 19 Q. Was that also BMG? 20 A. That I'm not sure whether it's BMG or BMM but, 21 you know, as I said the third letter was the variation 22 in the granular form so the basic formulation would not 23 be different. 24 2035. 5250. 25 Q. Was that 5250? SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 piMiill ..................I........................................1111111 Mill P I ................................................ 1 1 1 I 11 1 1 I II I I 1- t I I I ip (800) 547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 2 3 I l 4 5 6 L I I I 7 8 L I t 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 j i 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 I h 24 25 i t S i Page 63 h Q. You have to keep your voice up for our court A. Yes, 5250. I am sorry, my voice goes down when I am thinking. It takes more energy. Q. Thank you. t h A. There were more but I can't remember all the numbers right now. k We had about a dozen formulations that contained asbestos out of at one time we had two hundred formulations and then that was consolidated down to about 120. Q. Do you recall or do you have any knowledge as to how many formulations there were in 1948? Total. A. No. Q. Do you have any knowledge as to how many of the formulations in 1948 specified asbestos? A. No. Q. Was the addition of asbestos to provide additional insulating characteristics to the Bakelite? A. No. Q. What is your understanding of the function of asbestos in Bakelite products? A. Did the same as any other mineral filler except r that since it was fibrous it gave the product a little E m I M P I I.........................................I H P H I'm IIIPWM/PMM. SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 Ml (800) 547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 Page 64 j better impact strength. 2 Q. Did it also offer additional heat resistant 3 characteristics in some Bakelite formulations? \ 4 A. Better than wood flour, no different than talc 5 or calcium carbonate or mica which were more glass which 6 7 1 8 I 9. were other fillers used. Q. I understand that one product made by Bakelite at one time used blue asbestos fibers. Is that your understanding as well? ti* \ I * h h P t f [ 10 A. Ask blue, that's the long fibers asbestos. 11 Q. Do you understand that one product used that 12 k 13 14 15 16 17 k. type of fiber? A. Yes. Q. Would that product ever be suitable for use aboard a Navy ship? A. I would have -- without knowing the application I can11 answer that. Q. What type of application was that product good t l lE [l h f t [ ik i k I E 19 for? 20 i 21 A. Primarily for very high voltage switch gear where you needed very high impact -- impact strength. ;> h i 22 Q. When you say very high voltage what are you 23 referring to? 24 i i i 25 A. Oh, what's normal in power stations, well over a thousand volts. j ; > h hr [ k k \ r h t E k I SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 IBM | |_m vrrrWmrmjTTI I i I..................................... III PI I I I I I iij I II.............................................. 1 ! (800) 547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 h 17 18 19 i 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 65 ! > h Q. Were there any limitations to the way the blue j fiber made the Bakelite product look? A. No. Once the product is molded it is very -- and if it's, you know, made well, well mixed, very difficult to tell what filler is in there. E . " i h Q. When you say it's very difficult, is it impossible to tell? A. Analytical method you can determine it but it I requires breaking -- taking the material apart. f Q. So in your opinion or from your experience ; there's no way to visually discern whether or not Bakelite has asbestos in it? A. That's correct. i r. Q. In your opinion -- well, there are other companies who made phenolic resin products; isn't that correct? A. Yes. | \ + I I frth C i Q. And with regard to their moldedproducts, in your experience is there any way to discern if there's no marking molded on the product itself who was the manufacturer of that product? A. That's correct. ' h Q. Okay. Do you have anyrecollection as to which ! other competitors of Union Carbide manufactured asbestos containing phenolic resins?i i t SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800)547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 h 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. There were other manufacturers of phenolic molding materials. We did not have access to their Page 66 1 !p [; formulations. I can only speculate that they would be doing the same thing we were doing. Q. Would the sales staff at Union Carbide have an understanding as to whether or not your competitors were selling asbestos containing phenolic materials that [ T l ! h h h ; L had -A. No, because the data sheets did not specify L '_ what colors were used. Q. Would they specify mineral filler? A. They will say mineral filler, yes. specifications only said mineral filler. And usually 1! j* Q. Are you familiar with the company American Cyanamid? ; ! j* A. Yes I am. Q. Did they manufacture urea formaldehyde? I !i p , A. I don't know. Q. Do you know what percentage of the market for ; phenolic resins -- well, do you know if American Cyanamid sold phenolic resins? j A. I don't think they did, no. They were never our competitor. Q. Are you familiar with a company called Makalot, M-a-k-a-l-o-t? } h [ h h P [ h i hp t i- SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800)547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 A. Would you spell that again please? Page 67 2 Q. M-a-k-a-1-o-t. 3 A. No. 4 Q. They weren't a competitor of Union Carbide? 5 A. I never encountered them, no. 6 Q. Are you familiar with a company called 7 Castol 3 A. No. 9 Q. They're not a competitor of Union Carbide? 10 A. None that I -- I never saw their name, no. 11 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with a company called 12 Catali 13 A. Catalin. Catalin? 14 Q. Right. 15 A. I recall that as a name of a product line. I 16 ddoonn* 'tt recall who it was that did that. Could have been 17 Celane 18 Q. Was that a phenolic resin product? 19 A. If it was it would have been a resin. 20 Q. Would that have been a molded product? 21 A. No. I never saw that name among the list of 22 phheennoollic molding material manufacturers. 23 Q. So that's not a competitor of Union Carbide's? 24 A. If it is it's in a different area than I was 25 in. PPMIPI' MIPI-MMI SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 rmr (800) 547-4441 ............................................. - ii1 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 Q. Are you familiar with a company called Page 68 ! Condensite, C-o-n-d-e-n-s-i-t-e? A. Yes, they were one of the original producers of tv Bakelite resins. I think they were located in Chicago. Q. Do you know whether they merged with Bakelite? A. I think they did. i. r 7 Q. And that would have been in the '30s? 8 A. Either '30s or maybe late '20s. * Q. Are you familiar with a product called 10 Redmanol? 11 A. Yes. That also was one of those very early 12 products, and I think the company that was also making 13 phenolic resins. 14 Q. Do you know whether they were making phenolic 15 resins in the 1930s? 16 A. Redmanol? They were also one of the companies 17 that consolidated to form Bakelite Corporation, I don't 18 know, since it was before my time, I don't recall when 19 all that happened. 20 Q. So that would have been a company, again, 21 that's merged with Bakelite early on? 22 A. Yes. There might be something in that article 23 I mentioned earlier today, but. 24 Q. Do you recall a company called Durez? 25 A. Oh, yes. Very much so. IM 11 I P I I I IP I i" i. I PM P I SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800) 547-4441 h i ' I I IMi i I I I i IMP I I IP y Mpjpqpf I I PI CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 2 3 4 5 6 i 7 8 9 10 11 i 12 . 13 14 15 i 16 17 i 18 i t ; 19 20 \ 21 h 22 23 24 . ; 25 Page 69 | Q. And they made a product called Durite? A. Yes. Q. Do you have any knowledge as to what percentage ofthe market ofphenolic resins Durez hadduring the : r ij- [ h i- [ 1940s? i A. A percentage I can't give you. I can just say thatthey were our biggestcompetitor but not as large ; !I j as Bakelite was. Q. Do you know if they were less than half the market for phenolic resins? A. During that period of time, yes. Q, Were they more than a quarter? A. Oh, yes. Yes. They were number two. That ! I | - position changed in 1953 and they became number one. Q. I am sorry, what year? A. In the 19 -- about 1953, to '54 they became ; h h | number one, and I would say they were probably had the dominant share and they're probably close to 50 percent. Q. How long did they remain the dominant share after 1954 to yourmemory? A. Until we went out of the business. They were always Q. number one. W Do you have any knowledge as to whether they i ^ : ; h h [ f ! h i [ produced acompetingmineral filler Bakelite product? * am sorry, a mineral filler phenolic resin product? I : f f SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800)547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 Page 70 : 1 A. Yes. They had a product line equivalent to : 2 ours. : 3 Q. Do you know if they ever tried to use the term j h 4 "Bakelite" to refer to their products? 5 A. They did not. They had their own, you know, 6 desig -- name for itbut. 7 Q. Okay. Thank you. ; t 8 Are you familiar with a company called i 9 Fiberite? 10 MR. ARMSTRONG: Hold on just aminute. I 11 THE WITNESS: Yeah, let me -- 12 MS. SHINING: Q. Well I think he answered the 13 question so we can go on. My question - 14 MR. ARMSTRONG: Let him get his answer out. 15 MS. SHINING: Sir, why don't we have the court 16 reporter read itback. 17 (Record read.) * 18 MS. SHINING: Q. Well, sir, do you have any 19 other knowledge as to whether or not Durez used the word 20 "Bakelite" to refer to their own products? And I don't 21 want you to answer with regard to what anybody else said 22 about Bakelite products. Just tell me what you know 23 about what Durez referred to their products as. 24 MR. ARMSTRONG: He canfinish his answer. 25 Please do so. j SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800) 547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 Page 71 1 THE WITNESS: All right. Durez did not but by 2 that time Bakelite became a tray -- a trade - 3 MS. SHINING: Q. Sir, if you are going to 4 answer with regard to what anybody else said I will move 5 to strike. I just wanted to know what Durez referred to 6 their products as. 7 MS. SHINING: Ms. Shining, will you allow him 8 to finish his answer? You may move to strike if you 9 want to but he has the right to finish his answer. Now 10 let him speak. 11 THE WITNESS: The customers considered any of 12 those products Bakelite type products. 13 MS. SHINING: Q. Okay. Well let me ask you 14 about that then if you insist on going into it. I will 15 move to strike your answer. 16 How many customers did you specifically hear 17 refer to phenolic resins generically as Bakelite 18 products regardless of who they were manufactured by? 19 A. Most of our customers. 20 Q. Okay. Which ones and on what occasions? 21 A. Oh, Modern Plastics Corporation, Square D, they 22 were people usually using it, and that Armstrong Corp. 23 formica, commonly used word. 24 Q. Any other customers? 25 A. Many of the electrical manufacturers. I'm SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800)547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 Page 72 | 1 trying to think of the specific names but we have to go [ : 2 down the customer list and I don't have that in front of I 3 me. 4 Q. You can't recall any other customers that used 5 the term "Bakelite" as a generic term to refer to 6 phenolic resins other than Modern Plastics Corporation : < 7 or Square D? 8 MR. ARMSTRONG: I will object to the question 9 as being argumentative and instruct the witness not to 10 answer. 11 You can rephrase the question so he can answer 12 if you like. 13 MS. SHINING: Q. Can you remember any others? r I 14 A. At this time I would need more time to think of 15 all the customers that we called on at that time. 16 Q. Go ahead. take all the time you need, sir. 17 A. Armstrong Corp. made a bottle cap. 18 The -- they were a number of electrical parts 19 manufacturers up in Wisconsin. I'm sorry, I can't 20 recall the specific names. I'll have to leave that as I 21 answered it. 22 Q. Okay. How many times did you speak with Modern 23 Plastics when they referred to Bakelite as a generic 24 word for phenolic resin? 25 A. I had gotten to the point where it didn't even SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800) 547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 Page 73 1 bother me. I mean it's part of a conversation, if they 2 had Bakelite it was no -- not a memorable experience. I 3 mean I -- it was our common way of communicating. 4 Q. Okay. Do you have any idea how many times? A. No. Q Do you recall who you were talking to at Modern Plastics who used that word in that way? 8 A. Generally the operators in the shop. The h foreman. 10 Q. Can you recall any of their names? 11 A. No I do not 12 Q. How about for Square D? How many times do you 13 recall them using the name in that fashion? 14 A. Again, it isn't something that I made 15 particular note of at the time. 16 Q. Do you recall any person individually referring 17 to it in that manner? 18 A. No, but my contact there was Mike Mayer of 19 Square D. 20 Q, What was Mr. Mayer's job? pc 21 A. He was in charge of specifying approving 22 products for his application. 23 Q. Did he have a particular title? 24 A. If he did I didn't know exactly what it was t t. 25 Q. Is Mayer, M-a-y-e-r or M-e-y-e-r? SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800) 547-4441 Trrt Mill 1,1,1 III .11 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 2 3 4 5 i 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 \ 22 23 24 25 A. M-a-y-e-r. Q. I am sorry? Page 74 E > t A. M-a-y-e-r. Q. And with regard to Armstrong Corp., do you have any memory as to how many occasions people used the term Bakelite in a generic sense? A. No. : t h t Q. And you don't recall the names of any of those electronics parts manufacturers in Wisconsin at this time? A. They don't come to mind right now, no. Q. When were these conversations with Modern Plastics, Square D, Armstrong and the parts people in ilh '/ f t Wisconsin? What years? A. It would be during the period of time that I I h t, [> was in that business, so between 1960 and 1974. Q. Okay. Are you familiar with a company called Fiberite? A. Yes. Q. Were they a competitor of -- and I am sorry, going back to Durez, do you have any recollection as h h ; t t to -- well I think I asked you. I am sorry. With regard to Fiberite, they were a competitor of Union Carbide's? A. No they were not. They were customers. SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800) 547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 Q. So they bought Bakelite Page 75 | A. They bought phenolic resins. Bakelite phenolic resins. Q. Do you know if they bought mineral fiber containing phenolic resins? A. No they did not. 7 Q. Are you familiar with a company called General 8 Plastics? A. I've heard the name but that's about it at this 10 stage. I don't recall what they did. 11 Q. Do you know if they're a customer of Bakelite? 12 A. I don't recall. 13 Q Okay. Do you recall if General Electric was a 14 customer of 15 A. Yes they were. 16 Q. Did you work at all with General Electric and 17 have any familiarity with the type of Bakelite they 18 purchased? 19 They made their own phenolic molding material 20 and bought from us what they didn1t make. So they were 21 both a producer and user. 22 Q. Do you know what years General Electric was -- 23 well would you consider General Electric to be a 24 competitor of Union Carbide in that sense? 25 A. Yes. SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800) 547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 Q What years were they a competitor? Page 76 A. Again during that period of time I was in charge of the group, about 14 years. Q. So 1960 through '74? r'- A. Right. Q. You're familiar with a company called Monsanto? A. , I am. 8 Q. And they made a product call Resinox? A. That as I recall was a phenolic resin. I don't 10 recall exactly what type it was because they're, you 11 know, a variety of phenolic resins and other 12 components reactive. 13 Q. Would you consider them to be a competitor of > *h h yr Eh L-- 14 Union Carbide? 15 A. When they were in that business I would say 16 only on the resin side. 17 Q. Do you know if they had a product that was 18 competitive with Union Carbide asbestos containing i 19 Bakelite products? 20 A. They were not in the molding business. 21 Q. Are you familiar with a company called 22 Marblette, M-a-r-b-l-e-t-t-e? 23 A. NO. 24 Q. I am sorry, was that "no"? 25 A. No. fr 7.......................W11|111 '-1-1 SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 TM I I ... I I |.-l I I ,I.PPPMrP, MrP PM,... .l:i. ................ . - (800) 547-4441 r rc " TTT- mmi pumpi impi CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 Page 77 Q. So they weren't a competitor of Union Carbide. A. NO . Q. Are you familiar with a company called National Vulcanized Rubber? > A. I have heard the name, yes, but I don't -- they were not a competitor of ours in molding material and I don't remember them as a competitor in phenolic resins 8 either. Q. Are you familiar with a company called 10 Reichold 11 A. 12 Q Did they make phenolic resins? 13 A. They made phenolic resins and molding $ :s 14 15 Q. Were they a competitor of Union Carbide? 16 A. Yes they were. 17 Q. What percentage of the market did Reichold have 18 during the time you were group manager? 19 They were probably number four or five. The 20 exact percentage I don't know. 21 Q Do you know if they were a competitor of Union 22 Carbide prior to when you became group manager? 23 Yes they were. 24 Q Do you know how early they were a competitor of 25 Bakelite products? LJ r> "V" SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 r "Y V............>..............V III jj IJ "I , f (800) 547-4441 PI I I ! I P I I I IJ " _ j CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO Ir \ A. No I don't. 5/5/2001 Page 78 Q. Okay. Do you know if they ever referred to their products as Bakelite products? A. No they did not. Q. Okay. Reilly Tar? Are you familiar with a company called * A. No I'm not. Q. You don't know if they were a supplier of Union Carbide's? A. I have never seen that name before. Q. Okay. Rohm & Haas? Are you familiar with a company called ! | f^ e k j A. Yes I am. Q. Do you know whether they made any thermosetting plastics? A. They may have made somethermosetting plastics t, [ p h h h t f e h t ; but I -- they were not acompetitor phenolic area. of ours in the Q. Okay. Are you familiar with a company called |< e Westinghouse? A. Yes, I am. Q. They made a product called micarta. j' . s. p [ k A. Yes. Q. In your opinion is micarta a similar product to r Bakelite? SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800)547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 2 i 3 A. formica, h Page 79 f P It uses a phenolic resin and it is similar to j; p Q. Do you know if micarta ever contained asbestos? j- 4 A, It did not. 5 Q. Do you know if Westinghouse ever bought E" : 6 products from Bakelite? I 7 A. Yes they did. They also manufactured their own 8 phenolic materials. 9 Q. Do you know if those phenolic molding materials ever contained asbestos? A. No I do not. [ hh : L ; Q. Do you know if Westinghouse ever referred to its products as Bakelite? 14 A. They did not, no. 15 Q. Okay. I think you've mentioned the number -16 well, for part of this time period -- well, while you I t k f* j [ were employed as group manager Bakelite was not the number one producer of phenolic resins; is that what you said? A. Q. Of phenolic molding materials. Okay. Was Bakelite number one with regard to phenolic laminated resins? A. Phenolic resins in general. I would rank them | c t | | as one or two, yes. | Q, And the other producer would be Durite or l I SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800) 547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 7 8 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 i 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 81 | Q. Would asbestos be used as a filler for that application? The application that I'm familiar with would not require. Q. Okay. To your knowledge did the Bakelite division ever sell materials to General Dynamics? A. If they did I was not aware of it. Q. What about the company Convair, C-o-n-v-a-i-r? A. Again they were not on the customer list that we had for phenolic molded materials. Q. How about Hughes Corporation? Hughes for phenolic molding materials, I never saw that name on the customer list kor never asked to visit there. MR. ARMSTRONG: Ms. Shining? MS. SHINING: Yes ARMSTRONG: May I ask how much longer you have still? MS. SHINING: I have got my 15 minutes, I am going to use it. ARMSTRONG MS. SHINING: You have no sense of humor, E l t Mr. Armstrong. It's getting late out here. I had no idea that you were going to actually go to New Jersey, I am quite sorry. SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800) 547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE  mj m m m . I .................................... I .........................I f .................... ... ....................... I I M I MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 i2 i II i 3 4 5 i 6 7 8 i 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 fi L 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Dure z ? A. Of the phenolic resins? Page 80 I r1 t Q. Right. A. That was Georgia Pacific. Number -- some other manufacturer got into it a bit but Board and Chemical was another producer of phenolic resins. They probably . . -- -- . I I I I . I I I 11 !_ I I . T . . . . . . became number one. Q. Do you know if Georgia Pacific ever used . . . ! . . . . . . . . . . asbestos as a mineral filler in any of its phenolic I I I -T -T T T 1 resins? A. They were primarily users of phenolic resins for wood products. ..................... - ........................................ ...................................................................................... ....................................................................I I U . I I J U Q. So they used wood flour as the filler? A. No, they did not make phenolic molded materials, they made plywood. Q. Okay. And Board and Chemical, did they ever FM - -- 1 I -J - T - . make phenolic molding materials? * A. No, they sold resin to people who did make T T 1I . molding materials. .W ............................ ....................... ... .. ............................................................ ................. *. - -- -- Q. Was Bakelite ever formed into a sheet stock material for use as a circuit board? A PC board? A. Yes it could be used for that purpose. Now I I l _l T T T -T P T . r T T T T T I the -- depending on the size and shape, you know, it I-I , I I I I, I I I I I I would depend on whether, what it was molded for, laminated. ............ ....... .................................. ^ i. SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800) 547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 2 3 E I :4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 i 15 i 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Let me look of my notes. i Page 82 j: I am coming down to t the end of my notes. MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. MS. SHINING: Q. Was Bakelite -- was one of '_ h h h the components of Bakelite ever a material known as Epon r to your knowledge, E-p-o-n? A. Could you spell that again, please? Q. E-p-o-n. A. I never heard of that. Q. Okay. Have you ever heard of the product designation numbers BM-261? a. no. Q. What about BM-262 or 263? ! h \ Pf h i > I h ;; t E | ir !> ;; ! r IL A. No. Q. You never saw those product numbers in the materials that you were familiar with? A. During the time I was involved they were always four digit designations with nomenclature I described to r you before. I Q. Who was the individual that you replaced at group manager? j A. Phil Thomas became my boss. Q. Is Mr. Thomas still living? A. Yes, he is. Q. Where does Mr. Thomas live? i t j \,i- i. SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 riiMMMI I I I K j* J (800)547-4441 E i- i mi p 11 111 s CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 2 r sh a 4 5 6 l h 7 8 ;9 10 11 12 I 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. In Bridgewater, New Jersey. Q. I assume he's retired? Page 83 [ p [ L A. Yes, he is. Q. When's the last time you spoke with Mr. Thomas? i A. Last night. Q. Did you talk to him about this deposition? A. I told him I was going to be giving a deposition. He and a number of other people who I work with in the phenolic area play bridge with our wives once a month and last -- yesterday was our bridge meeting. ; ? v h T j I Q. I could never figure out that game. A. I'm not very good at it either but it's a good I * p I h reason to get together socially. Q. Did Mr. Thomas recall anything about the use of 6 b- t E asbestos in Bakelite? A. He would be related with many of the products that we talked about. He was involved in both the + [ t molding material and the laminating resin business just like I was, only just prior to the time I was involved. Q. When did Mr. Thomas start at Union Carbide or Bakelite? A. Before 1948 and just after the war. I think he joined Union Carbide after he got out of the service so 1 that would-probably be '46. SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800) 547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 3 9` 10 h 11 12 13 14 15 I 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 h 24 25 Page 84 Q. What service was he in? t' A. I think it was the Army but I'm not sure. Q. Now were you also in the Navy? A. Yes I was. Q. What were you in the Navy? A. I was electronic technician. [ t t Q. Did you serve aboard a ship? A. I didn't get that far. I was put through training for almost one year and then the war was over and they decided they didn't need us anymore. We were going to be assigned to a ship. Q. During your training did you have any exposure to Bakelite products? A. No I didn't. Well, I -- our training was to \i i t i repair electronic equipment. Some of the -- at the time I didn't know that much about plastics so I can't say that, you know, there were phenolic parts in the equipment but I can't see why there would not because it was used in the electronic equipment. Q. Did you ever use test panels to test equipment? ( E !I r c A. The instruments that we worked with were mounted on field panels and I never saw with the equipment I worked with, a plastic panel. Ih '\ t' Q. You never had to drill a hole in a plastic panel and put an instrument in it and test it? SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800) 547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 Page 85 Nh 1 A. No, no. These were steel panels that the 11 2 instruments were mounted on and I did not have that 3 experience. 4 Q. When did you undergo your training? Or I am 5 sorry, where did you undergo your training? 6 A. Oh, a number of different places. Started at >. j ; "t : > r-- ; > 7 Great Lakes. Then I went to Chicago. Then to Detroit 8 and then to San Francisco. \ i t 9 Q. In San Francisco where did you have your 10 training? 11 A. Treasure Island. 12 Q. Did you ever visit Hunter's Point Naval 13 Shipyard? 14 A. I'm not familiar with where that is. At the 15 time I was there there was a large, you know, the Navy 16 base was quite large at Treasure Island. 17 Q. Where did you live when you were in San 18 Francisco? 19 A. At Treasure Island. 20 Q. Did you ever visit the Mare Island Naval 21 Shipyard? 22 A. No, no. 23 Q. Did you ever visit the Marin Shipworks? 24 A. No. They kept us very busy in the Navy. It 25 was not a sightseeing trip. h ;i* ir f h h !, r ir / 11 L '! 5 SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800)547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 Page 86 1 Q. When you started with Union Carbide in 1948 ^ 2 were you aware of any advertising campaigns to support 3 the use of the name Bakelite as a trademark? 4 A. I think that came later in the '50s when the ' 'L j j 'K 5 decision was made to call products other than the 6 phenolics Bakelite brand plastics. We were making 7 polystyrene and polyethylene and one of our marketing j E E + 8 people decided to capitalize on that name and call these j, 9 other products Bakelite brand products. f' i- f ? 10 I: 11 "Bakelite" was only used to refer to phenolic resin 12 [' products made by Union Carbide prior to some time in the j 13 1950s? [ 14 r + A. By Union Carbide. 15 ' 16 Q. Right. Okay. A. As far as their designation, yes. 17 Q. Did you ever see any marketing materials then 18 T after the 1950s that said things like, "Make sure you 19 ask for Bakelite products by Union Carbide"? 20 | j f h I, 21 A. I could have because that sounds so familiar - s 22 but you know I can't recall the exact advertisement and 23 where it was and when I saw it. r Q. Other than Modern Plastics can you recall where 24 Union Carbide advertised its products? 25 A. That was the primarymagazine that Union h h t - SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800)547-4441 E t t h CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 Page 87 f. 1 Carbide used. There may have been others but I know : 2 that was the one they feel that got the most attention [ 3 because everybody usually bought it. 4 Q. Do you remember the name of the law firm that [ 5 handled Union Carbide's Bakelite patent work? 6 A. We had our own patent department,our own 7 patent attorneys, 8 Q. Do you recall any of their names? ' I t L !t if | 9 A. The patent coordinator first one that I recall 10 is Vic Auerbach. 11 Q. How do you spell his name? 12 A. A-u-e-r-b-a-c-h. \ ir i _ 13 Q. Is Mr. Auerbach still living? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Is he retired? f ' tI t t + t ? E f I E 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Where does he live? 18 A. He1s in New Jersey but I don't know the exact 19 location. 20 Q. I just want to ask you a few quick questions 21 one last topic and that's with regard to bonding of + P i* J- t b t ts h b E t E \ \ r- _ b i 22 phenolic resin material to the filler. And I understand 23 you have some chemical engineering training and that 24 included courses in chemistry; did it not? j i b E [ 25 A. Oh, yes. t I h E [ h [ I f ........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................Hill l WM IM l SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 Hi II M ' M ' I I I H I H i|nni|"i ....................... ...................................................................................................................1 I I PI H 11 i I I i i I i I i i I i IP................................................................................................. fiH-- I f< I < II (800) 547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTfNO 5/5/2001 ,1 I 2 3 ii L 4 5 i 6 7 8 ! 9 Page 88 I . Q. Okay. And you're familiar with the physical { and chemical interactions of the fillers in Bakelite? A. Yes, I was. * i' Q. Okay. Are you familiar with the chemical composition of the mineral asbestos? A. I'm familiar -- what I know is that it has | [ l h | hydroxyl groups that can be used to attachthephenolic [ resin to it. Or with any other, you know, resin you may h h [ want to react with it. 10 Q. Do you have any understanding or knowledge as 11 L 12 to whether those hydroxyl groups -- well, let me take that back. Have you ever done any chemical analysis to t' t 13 determine whether or not the hydroxyl groups on the 14 asbestos mineral actually physically altered themselves 15 to bind to the phenolic resin material itself? 16 A. They were no studies to prove that, no. All lt [ -y t 17 our evidence was indirect. 18 Q. When you say evidence is indirect you mean 19 theoretically speaking. i rr 20 A. The -- you do not get good bonding with the Il + 21 fiber you do not get the best physical properties. Also h I * 22 if you do not get it well mixed on the rolls when it's I E E manufactured, when you break a test bar and look at the 1 b 24 25 i l I failure point you can see, you know, white specks of T products that were not fully disbursed. So those were l h P + E I P [ l h t I I I I PI I SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 4 pn m imp rS ywr r (800) 547-4441 i TTT ..... ........................................................... E E i [ e * CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 ;1 2 3 4 |5 F P P !6 7 8 9 10 11 12 , 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 ' 23 24 25 Page 89 our two primary measures as to whether the product was thoroughly mixed. We did not run any studies to prove i that. We got complete bonding on the asbestos. ; r r Q. Okay. So when you say you break it on the test bar and look at it, what methods are you using to look E i. at the bar? A. If it's poorly disbursed in the naked eye is ; sufficient. Q. And would you do anything other than evaluate the test products using the naked eye? A. That and physical properties. It had to have a certain tensile strength and a certain impact strength and it was rated as to whether the surface appearance was enough. ; h h h K- ! ii ] Q. So the primary method you used to test whether or not the -- how the asbestos was mixing with the resin, those were physical tests that you were running, j h not chemical analyses. A. That's correct. MR. ARMSTRONG: Fifteen minutes are up, Ms. Shining. MS. SHINING: And I think I just squeaked in under the line. MR. ARMSTRONG: All right. MS. SHINING: Thank you, sir. Thank you for i h h h h P | [ f I | : j t SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800)547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 1 your patience this evening. Page 90 ; ; 2 MR. ARMSTRONG: Are you -- you want to handle 3 this deposition the way you people in northern 4 California normally handle depositions? ' 5 MS. SHINING: I think that would be acceptable, 6 waiving the court reporter as you did to hold the | 7 original and we will maintain the original. \ ^" > > 8 MR. ARMSTRONG: Can you e-mail me a transcript? | 9 (Discussion off the record.) 10 MS. SHINING: Counsel, do you agree that we may 11 use the finished e-mail version in lieu of the signed 12 versionfor purposes of testimony on Monday? If j 13 necessary? 14 MR. ARMSTRONG: The finished e-mail version 15 rather than the - 16 MS. SHINING: Well normally, Mr. Martino - ; !, i 17 i 18 well, you will get an opportunity to review the transcript and make any corrections but we are currently j t "t j 19 20 21 in trial so we need to do some additional perhaps stipulations. MR. ARMSTRONG: When are you getting the { k' P P P I j 22 4 23 transcript, Carolin? MS. SHINING: Well I am going to try to get it 24 as fast as I can so hopefully I can have it on Monday. .^ 25 MR. ARMSTRONG: As long as we get it at the I ! ! t [l i ph t \ p [ t ip SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800) 547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 MARTINO 5/5/2001 Page 92 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 STATE OF CALIFORNIA `) 3 COUNTY OF MARIN ) > 4 I, SHERRY SHERRY, Certified Shorthand Reporter ; 5 for the State of California, certify: 6 That CARLO MARTINO, witness in the foregoing 7 deposition was by me first duly sworn to testify to the 8 truth in said cause; 9 That said deposition was reported at the time h(lf K 10 and place therein stated by me, CSR No. 5619, and 11 thereafter transcribed under my direction; after which, 12 the witness was afforded the opportunity to read, i i j* > 13 correct, and sign the deposition; 1p 14 That if unsigned by the witness, witness shall t t 15 not have availed himself the opportunity to sign, or 16 signature has been waived. ' t iI 17 I further certify that I am not interested in 18 the outcome of said action, nor connected with, nor 19 related to any of the parties in said action, or to 20 their respective counsel. b f 21 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I hereunto set my hand 22 this 6th day of May, 2001. 23 24 SHERRY SHERRY, CSR NO. 5619 V ! 25 SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 (800)547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 t 1 2 3 4 DECLARATION OF WITNESS Page 93 f 1 I, CARLO MARTINO, hereby declare that I have read the foregoing testimony recorded on pages 1 to 93, inclusive, and the same is a true and correct 11 j 11 * ! r. j r 5 transcription of my testimony, except as I have } 6 indicated on the errata sheet attached hereto. i 7 8 9 1. ( ) The Deponent failed to appear to read, 10 correct, or sign his/her deposition. 11 12 iI 13 2. { ) The Deponent refused to read, review, or sign his/her deposition for the following reason: ,j ' h k h 14 i- 15 16 17 18 3. ( ) The Deponent approved his/her deposition 19 by letter (with) or (without) corrections 20 attached hereto and made a part of this 21 deposition herein. 22 23 24 C 25 I i h qq i | | | i | "l 'hivi iiimf K SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 TWTT Twwrmr (800) 547-4441 i M M i. "I PI V P CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 Page 94 j. 1 DEPONENT'S CHANGES OR CORRECTIONS Note: If you are adding to your testimony, print the exact words you want to add. If you are deleting from your testimony, print the exact words you want to delete. Specify with "Add" or "Delete" and sign this form. DEPOSITION OF: NAME OF CASE: DATE OF DEPOSITION: CARLO MARTINO Yeager v. Union Carbide Corp Friday, May 4, 2001 V * f, 11 , have the following 7 corrections to make to my deposition: 8 PAGE LINE CHANGE/ADD/DELETE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SIGNATURE DATE I.................... ... SHERRY SHERRY, 5619 .................. ............ rr P I I 4 I i P I I I (. 1 (800) 547-4441 **PI I I IMP I i I 11 V" 'V rJ - m hi i uppi CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE MARTINO 5/5/2001 Mr. Carlo Martino c/o Bruce Armstrong, Esq. Haight, Brown & Bonesteel 1620 26th Santa Monica, California 90404 May 6, 2001 Job No. CSR NO. 5619 i ' Re: Yeager v.Union Carbide Corporation i Dear Mr.Martino: : The original deposition transcript taken in the above matter on May 4, 2001 is now available for reading and signing at our office. For 35 days following this notice the deponent, either in person or by a signed letter, may change the form or the substance of the answer to any question, and may either approve the transcript of the deposition by signing it, or refuse to approve the transcript by not signing it. We do not release the original transcript from this office. ; ; i : You may read and correct your testimony from a certified copy of the originaltranscriptwhich may be purchased I at CalNorth Reporting Service. ; | Please telephone this office for an appointment if you desire to review the original deposition transcript. Sincerely, ; CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE i V hh h l* h E cc: Counsel of record ! t i rt * c k k h I \ E SHERRY SHERRY. 5619 (800)547-4441 CALNORTH REPORTING SERVICE