Document 58KKO5vqxRO4MNX39QrwDaV4

COPY IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS BEAUMONT DIVISION CECIL SCOTT, ET AL V. MONSANTO COMPANY ] ] No. B-84-1103-CA ] VOLUME 1 VIDEOTAPE DEPOSITION. WILLIAM RICHARD JP April 16, 1987 1300 Post Oak Boulevard Houston, Texas \ Jerry Kelley, Court Reporter Nell McCallum & Associates Inc. 2900 Smith, Suite 104 Houston, Texas 77006 (713) 523-3767 NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009036 Page Line LAWYER'S NOTES NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009037 2 1 APPEARANCES 2 3 4 For the Plaintiffs: 5. > 6 David M. Lacey 7 William Little 8 Attorneys at Law 9 Gilpin, Pohl & Bennett 10 Allied Bank Tower, 23rd Floor 11 1300 Post Oak Boulevard 12 Houston, Texas 77056 13 - 14 15 For the Defendant: } 16 17 Jonathan B. Shoebotham 18 1' 19 Attorney at Law Woodard, Hall & Primm 20 4700 Texas Commerce Tower 21 Houston, Texas 77002 22 23 f 24 25 I NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009038 3 1 Volume 1 of the Videotape Deposition of 2 William Richard Jr., taken on April 16, 1987, at 1300 3 Post Oak Boulevard, Houston, Texas, between the hours of 4 9 a.m. and 5:30 p.m. before Jerry Kelley, CSR No. 2004 5 and Notary Public in and for the State of Texas. 6 7 8 9 10 11 VIDEO OPERATOR: This deposition is being 12 taken in Cause No. B-84-1103-CA and is filed in the - 13 United States District Court for the Eastern District of 14 Texas, Beaumont Division. The style of the case is 15 Cecil Scott, et al, versus Monsanto Company. For 16 identification purposes, the video technician is Johnna 17 Coalson of the firm Executive Services, and the 18 certified court reporter present today is Jerry Kelley 19 of the firm Nell McCallum & Associates. Today's date is 20 April 16th and the time is approximately 9:15 a.m. We 21 are here today to take the oral and video deposition of 22 the witness Mr. William R. Richard Jr. We are located 23 at 1300 Post Oak Boulevard, Houston, Texas. At this 24 time will counsel please state their appearances for the 25 record? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9039 4 1 MR. LACEY: David Lacey representing the 2 plaintiffs. 3 MR. SHOEBOTHAM: Jonathan Shoebotham with 4 Woodard Hall & Primm representing defendant Monsanto 5 Company. 6 VIDEO OPERATOR: Would the court reporter 7 please swear in the witness. 8 9 10 11 WILLIAM RICHARD JR., 12 being duly sworn, testified as follows: 13 14 EXAMINATION BY 15 16 MR. LACEY: 17 Q Will you state your full name for the record, 18 please? 19 A William Ralph Richard, Jr. 20 Q And where do you live, Mr. Richard? 21 A I live at 729 Delchester Lane, Kirkwood, 22 Missouri. 23 Q Are you currently employed? 24 A I-'m self-employed. 25 Q And how are you self-employed? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009040 1 A I have my own consulting company, one-man 2 company, Delos Incorporated. 3 Q The name? 4 A Delos, Delos, Incorporated. 5 Q How long have you had that business? 6 A From December '85. 7 Q Tell me a little bit about your educational 8 background. 9 A I have an AB degree from Amherst College, 10 class of '43; I have a master's in chemistry from the 11 University of Michigan in '47; and a Ph.D. from the 12 University of Michigan in organic chemistry in '51. - 13 Q Was the AB degree in chemistry? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And following your bachelor's degree were you 16 in the armed service? 17 A No. I worked for Monsanto Company in 18 Springfield, Massachusetts. 19 Q When was your first employment with Monsanto? 20 A January '43. 21 Q And that was after you actually acquired your 22 degree? 23 A That's right. 24 Q And did you remain in the employment of 25 Monsanto while you worked on your master's degree? Or NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009041 O 1 did you take a leave? 2 A I had a one-year leave of absence from '46 3 through part of '47, and then I resigned from Monsanto. 4 Q In 1947? 5 A Right. 6 Q And that was after you acquired your master's 7 degree in chemistry? 8 A I'm not sure. But it was concerned with I 9 had to stay in graduate school, I wanted to get a Ph.D., 10 so I resigned. They wanted me to come back after a 11 year. 12 Q I see. 13 After getting your master's degree, did you 14 continue on in graduate school to get your Ph.D.? 15 A Right. Exactly. 16 Q And during the time from the time you started 17 your master's degree until you completed your Ph.D., 18 were you a full-time student? 19 A I was a full-time grad student. 20 Q Right. Did Monsanto pay for any part of that 21 education? 22 A No, they did not. 23 Q Did you have any teaching responsibilities or 24 fellowships, assistantships while you were in graduate 25 school? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009042 / 1 A I was a teaching fellow for two years at the 2 university, and I was a Du Pont fellow for about the 3 last two years. 4 Q Okay. 5 After you obtained your Ph.D., where did you 6 go to work? 7 A I returned to Monsanto Company at the Dayton 8 laboratories, Dayton, Ohio. 9 Q Okay. And from 1951 until what year did you 10 remain in Monsanto's employment? 11 A I actually started in the fall of 1950, a few 12 months before the degree was formally granted, and I 13 remained in Monsanto's employ until December 1985. 14 Q The time that you left to form your own 15 consulting business? 16 A I retired fromMonsanto, right. 17 Q That was a retirement in '85? 18 A Retirement. 19 Q Let me ask you a little bit about your work 20 assignments with Monsanto. From 1943 until you started 21 your master's degree what were you assigned to do? 22 A I was in the plastics division. I worked on 23 safety glass, on butyral, the safety glass group, I 24 worked for Schawinigan Resins Corporation and on 25 polyvinyl chloride. NELL NIC CALLUNI & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009043 8 1 Q What was the name of the company. 2 Schawinigan? 3 A Schawinigan. 4 Q Was that a subsidiary of Monsanto? 5 A It was a 50/50 subsidiary of Monsanto. 6 Q Were you actually located in a Monsanto 7 facility while you were doing that work or were you 8 assigned to some other location? 9 A It was an adjoining plant. It abutted the 10 Monsanto facility and was owned 50/50. There were gates 11 and a separate corporation. But I was assigned there 12 for roughly a year. - 13 Q During that time were you paid by Monsanto or 14 by the joint venture? 15 A By Schawinigan Resins. 16 Q When you came back to Monsanto in 1950 you 17 went to a different location? 18 A Correct. 19 Q And that was in Dayton, Ohio? 20 A Dayton, Ohio. 21 Q And what was located in Dayton, Ohio? 22 A It was the facility of the central research 23 department. . 24 Q And what sort of things were assigned to the 25 central research department? NELL NIC CALLUNI & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009044 1 A Initial exploratory research, some physical 2 chemistry. 3 Q What sort of things are involved in initial 4 exploratory research? 5 A In the whole facility or that I was connected 6 with? 7 Q What I'm really trying to find out is 8 generally what do you mean by the terminology initial 9 exploratory research, not a particular job that you did 10 or somebody else did, but what's involved in that work? 11 A Well, something that the company was not 12 already making, was not manufacturing, and that they 13 possibly could or would want to in the future 14 manufacture. 15 Q Would this be brand-new chemicals that nobody 16 else made or would it be chemicals that others were 17 already making? 18 A Both. 19 Q Okay. 20 A Both. 21 Q ` In terms of chemicals that others were 22 already making, I take it that not every chemical 23 company produces every chemical that can be made. Is 24 that correct? 25 A That's correct. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009045 JL V 1 Q And is it also correct that a particular 2 company may have to develop its own process for making a ,, 3 particular chemical in order to be able to make it? 4 A That's true. 5 Q And why is that? 6 A The process required may be different, it may 7 be superior in terms of economics, might be superior in 8 terms of quality, starting raw materials might be 9 different. 10 Q Are there ever any restrictions that would 11 keep one chemical company from simply copying what . 12 another chemical company is doing to make exactly the - 13 same thing in exactly the same way? 14 A Yes. The patent system in the United States 15 -- . 16 Q So chemicals -- 17 A -- may forbid it. . 18 Q I'm sorry. So chemicals can be or chemical 19 processes can be patented? 20 A Yes, chemical products could be patented. 21 Q Or products. And if that happens, then let's 22 just say that chemical company A has a patent on a 23 particular process for a particular product, company B 24 could not make that same product by that same process 25 without getting permission from company A. Is that NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009046 11 1 correct? 2 A Presently that would be correct. 3 Q Okay. 4 And if I understand what you are saying, the 5 research that was being done at this Dayton, Ohio, 6 central research department would involve both looking 7 at ways to make chemicals that other companies were 8 already making and also developing chemicals that nobody 9 was making at that time. 10 A It could be that way. 11 Q Do you know if it was that way? 12 A I can't be precise. - 13 Q Okay. 14 How long did you stay at the Dayton central 15 research department? 16 A I stayed from 1950 through 1961. 17 Q Okay. And during that -- 18 A Through part of 1961. 19 Q During that period of time, what different 20 titles did you hold there? 21 A I was a research chemist, I was a group 22 leader, and I was a section leader. 23 Q And can you tell me the chemicals that you 24 worked on while you were located at that facility? 25 A I can tell you some of them. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009047 12 1 Q If you would, do that, please. 2 A I worked on polyvinyl chloride, I worked on 3 polyethylene high pressure process, I worked on ethylene 4 copolymers, I worked on low pressure polyethylene, _5 crystalline polystyrene. Those are the principal 6 products I worked on. 7 Q Okay. 8 What happened in 1961 with regard to your 9 work assignments for Monsanto? 10 A The facility was given over to government 11 research -- contract research, not exclusively 12 government, but contract research dealing with outside 13 customers. And part of the personnel were transferred 14 to the Monsanto facility in St. Louis. A new research 15 center was built there. 16 Q The personnel that stayed in Dayton, did they 17 remain Monsanto employees? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And additionalMonsantoemployees were 20 transferred to the St. Louis research facility? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q Did that research facility have a particular 23 name? 24 A They called it theresearch center in 25 St. Louis. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009048 1 Q Was that, after it was constructed, the main 2 research center for all Monsanto? 3 A It became one of the research centers for 4 Monsanto, yes. 5 Q Let me try to understand a little bit about 6 Monsanto Company itself. Is Monsanto a United States 7 company? 8 A Incorporated in the State of Delaware. 9 Q Okay. I guess what I was really asking you 10 is whether its business all takes place in the United 11 States. 12 A It does not. It takes place outside of the - 13 United States as well as inside. 14 Q Is there a headquarters location for Monsanto 15 somewhere? 16 A Yes; St. Louis, Missouri. 17 Q Okay. In terms of operations that do take 18 place in the United States, what states was Monsanto 19 operating in in the 1960s and 1970s? . 20 A I can't nominate all the states. You would 21 have to get it from Monsanto Company. 22 Q Okay. Well can you give me the names of 23 states in which you are aware that Monsanto had 24 facilities? 25 A Massachusetts -- you're talking about NELL MC CALLUM 8t ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009049 1 manufacturing facilities now? 2 Q Well, let's start with that. Manufacturing 3 facilities, yes. 4 A I can't give you all the sales offices. 5 Q Okay. 6 A Manufacturing facilities, I can give you 7 some. Massachusetts -- 8 Q Where? If you know. 9 A Everett outside Boston. 10 Q Okay. 11 A Springfield, Massachusetts. 12 Q Okay. . - 13 A New Jersey, Trenton, Camden -- 14 Q Is that Trenton and Camden, are those two 15 different facilities? 16 A That's two different facilities. 17 Q Okay. 18 A Jersey. Florida was Pensacola. Alabama was 19 Anniston. Missouri, they had two or three facilities in 20 and around St. Louis. Illinois was Sauget. Iowa, 21 Muscatine. Facility in Huntsville later on. I'm not 22 sure of the timing. 23 Q Is that Iowa? 24 A Huntsville, Alabama. 25 Q Alabama. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009050 13 1 Yeah. 2 Q Okay. 3 A Decatur, Alabama. Let's see. Columbia, 4 Tennessee. Nitro, West Virginia. 5 Q I'm sorry. The town? 6 A Nitro, West Virginia. 7 Q Nitro? 8 A Nitro, West Virginia. Soda Springs, Idaho. 9 Small facility in Seattle, Washington. Long Beach, 10 California. Texas, Texas City and Alvin. That's the 11 majority that I can think of. 12 Q Okay. Looks like we've got maybe 20 or more 13 different manufacturing locations spread throughout the 14 United States. Is that correct? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q ' Did all of these plants make the same 17 chemicals? 18 A Did they all make the samechemicals? 19 Sometimes, yes, but usuallynot. 20 Q Okay. So we might have one of these plants, 21 say the one in Soda Springs, Idaho, might make two or 22 three chemicals that Monsanto sold and the one in 23 Seattle, Washington, might make two or three different 24 chemicals that Monsanto sold? 25 A That's possible. But wealso had some NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009051 X VI 1 duplication in terms of two manufacturing facilities for 2 the same product. 3 Q Okay. 4 Let me just understand as best I can about 5 any manufacturing facilities outside the United States. 6 A I'm less familiar with the manufacturing 7 facilities outside the United States. 8 Q Are you aware of any of them at all? 9 A Yes. 10 Q If you would -- 11 A There were twoin England. 12 Q Okay. 13 A One is Ruabon, in NorthWales, andanother 14 one was in Newport in South Wales. We also had a 15 facility in Antwerp, Brussels. We have operated in 16 Spain; operated a small plant, safety glass plant, in 17 Prance. Operated a fiber plant in Israel for a short 18 time. 19 Q Fiber? 20 A Fiber. Operated in South America, Brazil. 21 Q Those are all you canrecall atthis point? 22 A Without a lot of effort togo through more. 23 There may be more. 24 Q Okay. 25 A There are more. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9052 17 1 Q Okay. Well, that's fine. I just wanted to 2 get a general idea. You are the first Monsanto employee 3 or ex-employee we've deposed in the case, so you get the 4 benefit of helping us understand a little bit about 5 Monsanto and how they operated. 6 Let me ask very briefly about the 7 organization of Monsanto as a company or companies. You 8 mentioned that one time you were assigned to a joint 9 venture they were in. Can you explain to me generally 10 how Monsanto was organized from a corporate standpoint? 11 MR. SHOEBOTHAM: At what particular point in 12 time, Mr. Lacey? 13 MR. LACEY: If the arrangement changes, then 14 I would like to try to understand that. 15 A This is a difficult question. 16 ` MR. LACEY: 17 Q Okay. 18 A Very difficultquestion. I'm not a corporate 19 man in that sense. I might be able to give you some 20 general answers, but not specifics. 21 Q It would help me if you could give me any 22 general information. As I say, you're the first person 23 from Monsanto that we have deposed in the case, so -- 24 A I think that youshould specify the time. 25 The corporation setups continually changed with regard NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9053 xo 1 to whether they had divisions or companies. The 2 arrangement was changed whether it was a geographic 3 organization or whether it was organized on product 4 lines or on process lines. Monsanto kept growing. 5 adding. So this is a very complex subject. 6 Q Well, let me try first to say -- let's pick 7 the year 1970, or thereabouts, and try to understand as 8 best you can explain for us how the company was 9 organized in and about 1970. 10 A I can tell you more about where I was in the 11 organization. 12 Q Okay. Well, that will be helpful. * - 13 A And maybe slightly preceding that. I was 14 assigned in 1963 and up through '70 to the organic 15 division 16 Q Organic means -- 17 A Organic division, which made -- which was -- 18 made principally organic chemicals. 19 Q And when we talk about organic chemicals. 20 we're talking about chemicals that have carbon in their 21 molecular structure? 22 A That's correct. 23 Q Okay. 24 A There may have been exceptions, but in 25 general they had organic chemistry as their main base of NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009054 19 1 operation. 2 Q Okay. 3 A This does not mean that the rest of the 4 company -- the rest of the company could also deal in 5 organic chemicals. So there was a -- you would have had 6 to define exactly what products the organic division 7 made. 8 Q But in terms of just a general understanding. 9 when we use the term organic, talking about organic 10 chemistry, organic chemicals, we're normally talking 11 about chemicals that have carbon in their structure? 12 A That's right. - 13 Q Okay. 14 A But so do plastics. So we were talking about 15 probably molecular weights under 500. 16 Q Okay. And the organic division was the 17 organic division of Monsanto? 18 A The organic division of Monsanto Company. 19 Q And where was the organic division of 20 Monsanto Company located, if it was located in any 21 particular spot? 22 A Their principal operations were in St. Louis 23 area and the Queeny plant was the -- one of the larger 24 plants. And they also operated, I think, at that time, 25 the Krummrich plant, or a good many products in the . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009055 20 1 Krummrich plant. Also had some operations at Anniston, 2 Alabama. 3 Q So the three plants that you recall that 4 basically were part of or had production for the organic 5 division were the Queeny plant, the Krummrich plant and 6 the Anniston plant? 7 A Yeah. Also Delaware River, which is one I 8 didn't mention before. 9 Q And where was the Queeny plant located? 10 A Queeny plant is located in St. Louis on South 11 Second Street. 12 Q That's on the Missouri side of the river? 13 A On the Missouri side. 14 Q And where is the Krummrich plantlocated? 15 A In Sauget, Illinois. 16 Q ' And how close is that to St. Louis? 17 A It's across the river in Illinois. 18 Q Okay. Is it generally directly across from 19 St. Louis? 20 A Roughly. 21 Q What would be the physical distance as the 22 crow would fly between the Queeny plant and the 23 Krummrich plant? 24 A I don't know the distance, but a mile, half a 25 mile. * NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009056 21 1 Q Okay. It's at least far enough to be across 2 the river? 3 A The river is fairly wide and it's not right 4 on the riverfront, so -- 5 Q Okay. And the Anniston plant was located in 6 Alabama? 7 A Correct. 8 Q And the Delaware River plant was located in 9 Delaware? 10 A No. It was in New Jersey on the Delaware 11 River. 12 Q Okay. - 13 Now, would each of these plants make more 14 than one particular chemical? 15 A In general, yes. These plants all would make 16 more than one -- 17 Q Okay. 18 A -- chemical. 19 Q Now, we'll talk about these plants in a 20 little bit , but let me go ahead and understand. What 21 other divisions of Monsanto Company were there in the 22 period from 1963 or so to 1970? 23 A I can answer in general terms. 24 Q Fine. 25 A They had the inorganic division which largely NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009057 1 made inorganic chemicals. 2 Q Which would be chemicals that don't have 3 carbon in them. Correct? 4 A In general. 5 Q Okay. 6 A Not specifically. But in general they were 7 based on phosphorus and phosphate products; inorganic 8 phosphates. They had a textile operation. 9 Q Were there specific plants that were 10 generally inorganic chemical plants? 11 A Well, it varied. And I'm not sure of the 12 dates. Sometimes they're arranged geographically, in 13 which case the organic division would have certain 14 products that were made in different plants. Sometimes 15 they're arranged by division, and division had certain 16 responsibilities, and guest operations. So it's very 17 complicated. You would have to go back and chart it 18 year by year. And I don't have that in my head. 19 Q Okay. 20 Well, let me go on. You mentioned there was 21 a phosphate division? 22 A Well, I said inorganic division that made 23 principally phosphorus and phosphate -- 24 Q Okay. That was one and the same? 25 A Exactly. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009058 1 Q Okay. What other divisions were there? 2 A There was a plastics division and there was a 3 textiles division or company. 4 Q Okay. Any other divisions that you can think 5 of? 6 A Well, they had packaging, bottles and plastic 7 materials. 8 Q Okay. 9 A Blown ware. I don't know whether they called 10 it Fabricated Products at that time or not, but at one 11 time it had the title Fabricated Products. They had an 12 international division. If I think of more. I'll come 13 back to it. 14 Q That's fine. 15 A These were around '70. 16 Q Now, you indicated that there were changes 17 over time. If we go from 1970 to 1976, for example, 18 were there changes in that period from what you've 19 described as existing up to 1970? 20 A Yes. As far as I was concerned, the organic 21 and the inorganic divisions were combined. 22 Q Sometime in the early Seventies? 23 A In the early Seventies. And they called that 24 the Monsanto Industrial Company. 25 Q Monsanto Industrial Company? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9059 1 A Industrial Company, right. 2 Q Okay. What happened to the other various 3 divisions in that reorganization? 4 A I'm not familiar enough to give you the right 5 information. 6 Q Okay. 7 When you left the company in 1985 was it 8 still organized in the same way it was reorganized in 9 the early 1970s? 10 A The answer is, I was -- as far as I was 11 concerned, I was back in the Monsanto Industrial 12 Company, having been in the Monsanto Chemical - 13 Intermediates Company in the intervening years. 14 Q Okay. 15 A So there was an organizational change, but I 16 was back with the industrial company. 17 Q What was the difference between the 18 organization up to 1970 that had the organics division 19 and the inorganics division and the post-1970 20 combination of the organic and inorganic divisions into 21 the industrial company? 22 A Would you repeat that, please? 23 Q Yes. What was the change that took place 24 between the way the company was structured from having 25 the organic division and the inorganic divisions as they NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009060 25 1 existed before 1970 and the combined divisions in the 2 industrial company as they existed after about 1970? 3 A Well, one change is that their product groups 4 might be slightly different. Paper group was assigned 5 to the plastics division, for example. Again, the 6 specifics, I would have to go back to an organization 7 chart and go through in detail. But that would be 8 typical. In general, they had the same products, but 9 there were certain products which had been assigned to 10 probably another division. Or another company at that 11 t ime. 12 Q Okay. Did this basically change the 13 reporting lines and things like that more than the 14 actual individual work assignments of a person like 15 yourself when reorganizations took place? 16 A It depended. If you had the same product 17 group and the same business, the organizational changes 18 were minimal. If you were reassigned to a different 19 product group, of course, then the reporting 20 relationships would change. 21 Q When the organic division and the inorganic 22 divisions were combined and assigned to the industrial 23 company, did the Queeny plant, the Krummrich plant, the 24 Anniston plant and the Delaware River plant stay with 25 that same group? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. HARTOLDMON0009061 2b 1 A The majority did. There might be a minor 2 exception. But the majority went with the industrial 3 company. 4 Q Do you know what the exception would be, if 5 there were one? 6 A I don't know for sure whether Camden or 7 Delaware River -- I think they stayed with the 8 industrial company, but -- 9 Q You mentioned at some point in time between 10 the 1970s and when you retired you apparently were away 11 from the industrial company and then came back to it. 12 Is that correct? 13 A That is correct. ^ 14 Q What reorganization or restructuring caused 15 that to happen? 16 A The larger volume products which were made in 17 plastics division, textiles division and the industrial 18 division -- and I'm talking about the chemicals, not the 19 end products, but the intermediates that provided the 20 end products, if were reasonably large volume or mainly 21 process intermediate oriented, were put into the 22 Monsanto Chemical Intermediates Company. 23 Q About when did that happen? 24 A Roughly about '79, early '79. Maybe late 25 '78, something like that. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009062 x/ 1 Q And you were then assigned from the 2 industrial company to the intermediates company? 3 A That's correct. 4 Q And what products were you working with in 5 '78 and '79 that were large volume that resulted in that 6 reassignment? 7 A I had the responsibility for process 8 chemicals for the industrial company prior to the 9 reorganization. 10 Q And can you explain what you mean by that? 11 A Process chemicals meant the larger volume 12 things that the organic division had previously' made. - 13 Maleic anhydride was one product, chlorobenzene family. 14 nitro-chlorobenzene family, sulfuric acid and caustic. 15 Q Any others? 16 A I was trying to think. I think that's -- 17 those are the main -- they were the main products that 18 we had, worked on. . 19 Q What brought you from the intermediates back 20 to the industrial? 21 A The intermediates company was disbanded. 22 Q Okay. 23 Prior to about 1963, because that's when we 24 started talking about the various divisions, were there 25 other organizational forms that existed before '63 that NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009063 28 1 we haven't discussed? 2 A I'm sure there were. I was -- 3 Q Do you recall -- 4 A I was mainly involved in the central research 5 department and the research and engineering division, 6 and really didn't play much of a part in the total 7 organization at that time. 8 Q Okay. 9 Let me go back, then, and let's talk about 10 the assignment that you had to the St. Louis research 11 center in 1961. I take it this was the research center 12 at the headquarters of all of Monsanto. Correct? - 13 A Yes. 14 Q And was it theirlargestresearch facility? 15 A It was one of the largest. I don't know 16 whether absolute -- we had pretty large facilities in 17 research triangle, in Pensacola, we had a large research 18 facility at Springfield. So it was probably the 19 largest, but there were other research installations 20 which were close. 21 Q How was the work divided between the various 22 research facilities? 23 A How was it divided? Most ofthe plastics 24 were done still at Springfield, with a small group at 25 St. Louis. Most of the organic research was done either NELL MC CALLUM 8t ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009064 29 1 on South Second Street or at the research center. Most 2 of the inorganic research was done at the St. Louis 3 facility. So there was no simple assignment. 4 The ag company, agricultural company, I left 5 that out before. The agricultural company had a large 6 facility at the research center. Textiles, in general, 7 was done at Pensacola and also at the research triangle. 8 Some at Decatur, Alabama, too. It's not an easy 9 pattern. 10 Q Okay. Something like the corporate 11 organization, a little bit hard to understand? 12 A Well, you had to stay with it and you had to 13 know specifically the time interval that was involved. 14 Q Did your assignment to the central research 15 facility at St. Louis in 1961 involve specific products 16 or specific chemicals that you were going to be working 17 with? 18 A I had the assignment to see if we could make 19 new materials for the building construction industry. 20 Q Can you give me some examples of the types of 21 things you were working on? 22 A Yes. We called part of the main part of the 23 program, we called it heavy duty plastics or engineering 24 plastic materials. 25 Q What sort of things were those being targeted NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009065 30 1 for in use? 2 A We wanted high modulus materials with good 3 impact and fire resistance that would compete in the 4 fabricated area for -- with other materials. 5 Q Can you give me an example of an end use of 6 something like that? That's what I was trying to get 7 at. 8 A Yes. One of the products which came out of 9 this was Vydyne. And it was a Vydyne composite 10 material. We were aiming at things like bathtubs and 11 automobile parts. 12 Q Okay. How long did you have that specific 13 assignment at the central research facility? 14 A Roughly two years. 15 Q And what was your next assignment? 16 A ' I went to the organic division in '63. 17 Q Okay. Were you still in the central research 18 facility when you were with the organic division? 19 A No. I initially went to South Second Street, 20 where the organic division research was done at that 21 time. And later we moved -- we moved some of the people 22 back to the research center and continued operations at 23 South Second Street as well. 24 Q But then organic research was done under the 25 auspices of the organic division as opposed to under the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009066 31 1 auspices of the central research. Is that correct? 2 A That is correct. Or the central research was 3 sometimes called the research and engineering division. 4 Q What -- I guess maybe that then -- it was its 5 own separate division? 6 A Research and engineering division was, yes. 7 Without any manufacturing facilities, though. 8 Q Was it a staff-type function? 9 A It was more a staff, because it lacked 10 manufacturing facilities. 11 Q Were there other divisions or companies or 12 groups that also were basically staff function groups as13 opposed to manufacturing groups? 14 A A whole -- yes, sure. 15 Q Can you tell me about those other aspects of 16 the company that you recall which had staff-type 17 functions and were not a part of any particular 18 division? 19 A Finance and accounting; medical; 20 distribution. At least, distribution had it both ways a 21 small staff and each division, of course, had its own -- 22 or each company its own distribution as well. The same 23 thing is true of accounting. Law department. Patent 24 department was often split, had both attorneys assigned 25 to central and to the divisions. Engineering NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009067 m* 1 continually changed. Sometimes it was division 2 entirely, sometimes it was central with people assigned 3 to the division problems. 4 Q When these staff -- what are they, divisions 5 or -- 6 A They call them -- earlier divisions; they 7 called them companies later. 8 Q What's the difference between a division and 9 a company? 10 A I suppose that the division was in the 11 earlier days of Monsanto when they were smaller entities 12 in terms of people and dollars. And later on they began13 to call them companies. 14 Q Was there any difference that you could tell 15 other than the size of them? 16 A I can't answer that question. 17 Q Well, what I was asking was whether you were 18 able to tell any difference other than the size. 19 A I think that was the principal difference. 20 Q Okay. Now -- 21 A There may have been some legal reasons, I 22 don't know. 23 Q Okay. 24 In terms of these divisions or companies, for 25 example, the organic and when it combined with the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009068 1 inorganic to create the industrial, they had a reporting 2 chain that went on up to the top person at Monsanto. Is 3 that correct? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q Did -- Was there also a reporting chain for 6 these various staff groups that went on up to the top 7 person at Monsanto? 8 A Sure. They eventually reported to the 9 president. 10 Q Okay. And the question I guess I have is 11 whether they reported directly to the president of the 12 company instead of reporting to somebody in one.of these13 particular divisions. For example, the law department 14 didn't report to anybody in the organic division, did 15 they? 16 A They might have had a dotted-line 17 responsibility. But I'm sure that the direct formal 18 would be straight up -- would be straight up the line. 19 Q When we talk about a dotted-line 20 responsibility, we're saying they would help out these 21 people in these other divisions when they needed help? 22 A Right. And they were partly responsible for 23 that organization, making sure they, you know, did the 24 right function and could help them. 25 Q Let me just see if I can understand it. For NELL MC CALLUM 8t ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009069 1 example, if we have this finance and accounting 2 division, that's basically a staff function. There may 3 be some individuals in there who specifically are there 4 to assist the organic division, there may be some other 5 people who are specifically there to assist the plastic 6 division and so on and so forth. Is that what you are 7 suggesting? 8 A I would rather not say anything about the 9 financial division. I was never really connected with 10 it. So my knowledge -- detailed knowledge is not there. 11 Q Okay. Were there any of these divisions that 12 performed staff functions that you ever worked with? - 13 A Would you repeat the question, please? 14 Q Yes. Were there any of these divisions that 15 performed staff functions, like finance and accounting. 16 medical, distribution, law, patent, engineering, central 17 research, that you worked with -- . 18 A I'm not sure that they were called divisions. 19 Q Okay. Well, what would the proper title be? 20 A I don't know. But not divisions. Maybe just 21 a staff -- maybe just was called accounting or finance. 22 Q Okay. 23 A But they were not normally given the title of 24 division. 25 Q Okay. Well, let me rephrase it. I don't NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009070 35 1 want to try to make it into something it's not, but were 2 there any of these staff groups -- is that a good word 3 to use? 4 A I think that's a good word. 5 Q Are there any of these staff groups, like 6 finance and accounting, medical, distribution, law. 7 patent, engineering and central research, that you 8 worked with after you were assigned to a specific 9 division, for example, the organic division? 10 A The answer is yes. 11 Q Which one did you -- or ones did you have _ 12 direct dealings with? - 13 A Patents, medical, sometimes legal, rarely 14 accounting, but maybe once in a while. 15 Q And from that -- 16 A ' Engineering. You left that out, but -- 17 Q I thought I had listed engineering. I 18 apologize. 19 A Well, in your last, I think, question -- 20 Q Okay. 21 A But certainly we had a lot of interaction 22 with the engineering staff or -- 23 Q Now my question is whether or not you were 24 able to determine from those groups that you did 25 interact with whether there were specific people in 3 ; NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009071 1 those groups that were assigned to assist, for example, 2 the organic division that you were working in and others 3 who were assigned to different divisions within that 4 staff group. 5 A Depended on the size of the staff group and 6 the situation involved. Sometimes they were targeted, 7 we'll say, to work with a particular division, sometimes 8 they were targeted to work for a particular product. I 9 think they had some flexibility within that -- their own 10 organizations, depending upon the work loads, importance 11 of it. - 12 Q And the difference between being targeted for 13 a division or a product is that sometimes products 14 switch divisions in reorganizations? 15 A Sometimes they did. Sometimes the work load 16 would change and assignments would be remade, 17 reassigned. 18 Q Let me go back now to your assignment to the 19 organic division in 1963 and working on organic research 20 at South Second Street. What sort of function did you 21 have when you were assigned to the organic division in 22 1963? 23 A I was assigned as the manager of fluids, 24 functional fluids. 25 Q Functional fluids? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009072 37 1 A Right. 2 Q What are functional fluids? 3 A These were liquid materials, or fluids, which 4 provided an application which did a particular function. 5 For example, it might be dielectric fluids or it might 6 be hydraulic fluids or it might be heat transfer fluids. 7 These were typical application areas. It might be 8 lubricants. High temperature jet lubricants was one of 9 the areas. 10 Q Was there any.common bond between all of 11 these different functional fluids? Or was each one _ 12 independent from the other? - 13 A Common bond was that they were-- were fluids 14 and had -- usually had mechanical or electrical 15 applications closely connected with them. 16 Q Was there any chemical similarity between the 17 materials that created these various functional fluids 18 or were there all sorts of different chemicals that 19 could create these functional fluids? 20 A We had a variety of families of products that 21 we -- that we used. Some were in more than one 22 application, others were not. 23 Q Can you give me the families of chemicals 24 that you were involved with as the manager of functional 25 fluids? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009073 38 1 A Yes. Polyphenyl ethers and polyphenyl 2 thioethers were involved in high temperature jet 3 lubricants. 4 Phosphate esters were involved in fire 5 resistant hydraulic fluids for the aviation industry. 6 Chlorinated biphenyls were involved in the 7 electrical industry. They were involved with fire 8 resistant hydraulic fluids. I say electrical industry. 9 I think I ought to split it down into capacitors and 10 transformers. 11 Chlorinated biphenyls were involved initially 12 in heat transfer applications, fire resistant heat - 13 transfer products. It had various hydrocarbons that 14 were also heat transfer. HB 40 hydrogenated terphenyls 15 were involved with heat transfer. 16 Those were the principal that we worked with i7 at the time. We did a lot of new synthetic work on 18 phosphinates and phosphonates seeking fire resistant 19 products. Worked on brominated derivatives. 20 Q . With regard to the different families you've 21 given me, and I think you've given me about four 22 families here that I've noted, which one was the 23 largest -- made up the largest portion of the actual 24 product of the functional fluid portion of the organic 25 division? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009074 --I / 1 A I think in terms of volume I think 2 chlorinated biphenyls were the largest volume. In terms 3 of dollars, I'm not sure about that. We also worked 4 with esters; not just phosphate esters, we worked with 5 carboxylic esters as well. 6 Q What's the difference between when you say 7 the largest volume but you're not sure about the 8 dollars? What do you mean by that? 9 A Well, the price of the chlorinated biphenyls 10 was lower than the price of most of the other products. 11 The polyphenyl ethers were extremely difficult to make- 12 and volume was low, but the dollar volume was reasonably- 13 high. . 14 Q Is there any relationship between the dollar 15 volume of what you sell and whether it's good or bad for 16 the company? 17 A No. I think that probably the importance of 18 the application was -- was paramount. The polyphenyl 19 ethers, for example, were used in particular aircraft, 20 military aircraft. So it would depend a lot on the 21 application. 22 Q I guess my question -- I didn't phrase it 23 very well -- was; Simply because a particular product 24 line had more gross dollar sales would not necessarily 25 mean it's the most profitable line for the company. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009075 u 1 would it? 2 A No, it would not. But also it might not be 3 the most important product either. 4 Q Right. I mean if you had -- if you produced, 5 hypothetically, ten pounds of some particular material 6 that you sold for a million dollars a pound -- 7 A Or that was important to the United States. 8 Q Certainly. All of those factors have to be 9 taken into account in evaluating the chemical. Correct? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q Do you know, of these various families, which 12 group was -- had the largest margin of profit in it? - 13 A I don't recall. 14 Q Was that something that you were privy to at 15 any point in time? 16 A ' It really was not my -- I didn't set prices 17 and didn't have much to do with the pricing or with the 18 accounting part of it. 19 Q I understand. I'm just asking whether you 20 knew at some point in time. 21 A I'd say the profit margin probably was 22 highest in polyphenyl ethers, but the volume was small. 23 We also dealt with silicate esters. That's another 24 family of products. 25 Q Do you think the highest profit margin was in NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009076 41 1 this stuff that you sold to the Government or the Air 2 Force or whatever the -- 3 A I'm not certain. 4 Q Okay. What was the next highest profit 5 margin. as you recall? 6 A I think that you should seek somebody in a 7 better position to remember what these profit margins 8 were. They obviously changed with time. And it was not 9 my responsibility. 10 Q Well, let me ask, then, just if you can 11 direct me that way. And again you get the privilege of 12 being the first Monsanto employee or former employee - 13 I've deposed. What way should I go to try to find 14 somebody? Who would be more privy to that than you? 15 A Well, I would think the business manager. 16 business director. He was responsible for the profits 17 of that kind of organization. 18 Q And who was that? 19 A A man named Riney Wobus was the first that I 20 worked for. 21 Q Who else? 22 A Joe Cresce. 23 Q Who else? 24 A Ascosta San Anagnostopolis. 25 Q Can you spell that? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009077 42 1 A Anagnostopolis. That's close, 2 anyway. 3 Q Okay. Who else? 4 A Howard Bergen. 5 Q Who else? 6 A That's about it. 7 Q Okay. And these people were the business 8 people responsible for functional fluids? 9 A Yes. Up through '76 or so. '74, 5, 10 somewhere, I bowed out. 11 Q Okay. - 12 Now let me ask what sort of work the research- 13 group was doing with regard to functional fluids in the 14 1960s. 15 A We did synthesis work on base stocks and 16 additives; and we did application work to determine 17 the -- at least the initial functions of the -- of the 18 product for the intended use; and then we possibly 19 worked with the technical staffs of the engineering 20 staffs of the intended market user. 21 Q Let me go back and try to understand each one 22 of those things you've told me. First, when you talk 23 about synthesis work on base stocks and the like, what 24 are you talking about there, if you can give me an 25 example to explain that? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009078 43 1 A Well, we were always trying to make better 2 fire resistant fluids, we'll say, for hydraulics. . And 3 we were trying to increase the temperature range of, 4 say, the aircraft hydraulic fluids and maintain 5 properties. So we looked at a lot of phosphorus 6 chemistry other than phosphate esters, phospinates and 7 phosphonates, and we would synthesis compounds, run 8 their physical properties, run initial screening tests 9 on corrosion and oxidation, and then scale up maybe in a 10 pilot plan if it looked feasible, and then run things 11 like pump tests or lubricant tests or bearing tests or. 12 whatever the application was, fire tests. 13 Q And did this primarily involve extensions of 14 existing products to try to improve existing products? 15 A Sometimes yes, sometimes no. One of the 16 projects we worked very hard on were tractant fluids. 17 These were for new kinds of transmissions for 18 automobiles, where you want high -- eliminate gears and 19 have rolling elements only. So you've got -- when 20 shifting, you've got a continual smooth shift. We 21 worked on bi -- dielectric machining fluids for General 22 Motors. 23 Q Explain what you mean by application work. 24 A Well, for the intended use. If we were 25 trying to make a hydraulic fluid for fire -- fire NELL NIC CALLUM 8t ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009079 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 44 resistant hydraulic fluid for aircraft, we would have machines that would simulate part of the aircraft functions -- part of the aircraft functions. Then we would take our information and go to Boeing or to Douglas or whatever and find out whether they were interested and talk with them. And if they were interested, they would begin testing in a more sophisticated manner. Q Would this involve attempting to find a way to have a product that Monsanto might have be applied in a way it had not previously been applied and therefore. make it marketable to potential customers? - A Yes. If that were possible. Sometimes that was not possible. VIDEO OPERATOR: We're off the record. [Recess] VIDEO OPERATOR: We're now back on the record. MR. LACEY: Q Are there occasions where Monsanto would be producing a particular chemical and they would have more of it produced, because of production requirements or the way the process operated, than they were able to sell? A Would you repeat that, please? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009080 45 1 Q Yes. Were there occasions where Monsanto 2 would be producing a particular chemical and because of 3 the way the process was structured or other factors you 4 couldn't reduce the production to the level of sales 5 and you would have to try to find new applications in 6 order to be able to sell the entirety of the production? 7 A In general, no. 8 Q Okay. 9 A You could always cut production. 10 Q Were there occasions where plant capacity was 11 such that the requirements for current sales did not - 12 involve operating at or near plant capacity? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And in those caseswouldMonsanto attempt to, 15 if possible, find a way to increase the market so the 16 plant could be run more nearly at capacity? 17 A The fluids business, it's not that easy. You 18 have to have -- your customers and your applications and 19 so forth are pretty well set, so you just can't go out 20 and move more -- more fluid to somebody easily. It's 21 not like selling methanol, where you can sell it around 22 the world, cut the price and move it. It's not -- the 23 fluids business is much more of a specialty operation, 24 not geared to all-out production. 25 Q Well, I guess my question was: If I put a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009081 46 1 new plant on line that made a particular component of 2 fluid, and with my current demand I was only operating 3 at 60 percent of that capacity, would it be a charge 4 that might be laid to your group to try to find new 5 applications for that remaining capacity, to develop the 6 markets? 7 A That was not the normal kind of assignment 8 nor a specific assignment. We geared production to what 9 we thought we could sell. We had excess capacity and 10 that was normal. And there was no way to quickly turn 11 anything like that around. . 12 Q Well, what sort of application work, then, 13 would you do that would develop markets, if any? 14 A Well, I mentioned the new applications. 15 For example, we tried to go after -- we were in the high 16 temperature jet lubricant business, and mainly in 17 government particular operations we tried to expand the 18 jet engine lubricant business to the commercial 19 airlines. And we did a lot of work in formulations, 20 testing, working with Pratt & Whitney and GE. So we 21 would try to expand our lubricant business. We used 22 different chemistry. But we were knowledgeable of the 23 area and therefore we wanted to expand the market. Our 24 market. 25 Q With regard to the function of working with NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9082 47 1 the technical staff of market users, I believe you 2 indicated that was one of the things that was part of 3 what your group did. 4 A Yes. J5 Q Can you explain to me generally what's 6 involved there? . 7 A Well, a user has control over the product 8 line, product -- particular product. If it's used in -- 9 we'll say in dielectrics, the capacitor manufacturer 10 really calls the shots. If it's a transformer, the same 11 thing is true. General Electric and Westinghouse are - 12 calling the applications shots as far as they were 13 concerned, and we were just supplying a component part. 14 So their engineering staffs and their management, 15 they're the key to whether a product is used or not and 16 in what volume. 17 The same thing is true in aviation. It 18 doesn't matter whether it's a jet engine lubricant or -- 19 the end user is in control. You have to meet his 20 specifications, you have to meet his requirements. The 21 same thing is true in fire resistant hydraulic fluids. 22 The aircraft manufacturer specifies what he wants. All 23 you do is the preliminary testing, enough to get him 24 interested, but he has to qualify the fluid, he has to 25 test for flight -- flight test it. This is true, I NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009083 1 think, of almost all the applications. The end user, 2 the pump manufacturer, whatever, has got control. 3 Q What my question is, though, is: What work 4 did you do with the technical staff of your customers? 5 A Well, we would present our information to 6 their engineering staff and they would tell us, "Yes, 7 we're interested and we'll go forward," or "No, the test 8 results don't look good enough, and go back and if you 9 want to continue the operation you have to convince us 10 of some other property or improve some property or 11 improve some function or add some function or subtract- 12 some function." - 13 Q Do I understand from what you're telling me, 14 then, in the specialty fluids business, it takes more 15 than just a salesman making a sales call to make the 16 sale, it takes technical people like you assisting to 17 make the sale? 18 A In a preliminary sense, yes. No question 19 about it. Then the sale comes later. You may be 20 working two, three, five years ahead of the actual sale. 21 Maybe even more. 22 Q And after you have made a sale, and by that I 23 mean let's take an aircraft manufacturer, for example, 24 who you go and explain the potential fluid that you have 25 for his use and after having heard your presentation he NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009084 49 . 1 says yes, he's interested, and his technical peoplelook 2 at it and do their testing and you actually start 3 supplying that fluid, is there still a continuing role 4 for technical people with regard to that customer and 5 that fluid? 6 A Yes. Try to stay in contact to see whether 7 the actual results were -- were consistent with the test 8 results. So you're trying to monitor at least -- 9 sometimes you can monitor, sometimes you can't. But you 10 try to listen to his staff and find out whether -- 11 whether there are problems with the product or not. . 12 Q And if there are problems, do you try to 13 rectify any problems that are partly caused at your end? 14 A If we're involved and we think we can do it 15 or if we're involved directly we would try to correct it 16 or change it if we had to. . 17 Q To what extent did that job of working with 18 the technical staff of market users get you and your 19 people -- let me stop right there. You had people 20 working under you? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Tell me generally about the number of people 23 who -- and I'll say technical people. I don't mean 24 secretaries, necessarily, but people who had science 25 degrees who worked for you in this period from 1963 to NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009085 50 1 1970. 2 A The order of 20 people. 3 Q Technical people? 4 A Technical people. 5 Q And were those people broken down by specific 6 assignments to particular things, like certain people 7 . assigned to the chlorinated biphenyls, others assigned 8 to the phosphate esters and the like? 9 A Usually we had a combination of synthesis 10 people, synthesis capability tied in with an application 11 person or persons so that -- and sometimes in the . 12 intermediate there would be a formulation person. So we- 13 had synthesis, formulation, applications. And they 14 would be geared to specific uses. 15 Q Would any of those people or yourself ever go 16 to a customer's facility in connection with working with 17 the technical staff of the customer? 18 A Yes. They would go. 19 Q Which people? Would it be the application 20 people who would be basically going to a customer's 21 facility? 22 A Yes, more frequently. But sometimes the 23 synthesis person would also go, too. 24 Q And would you personally ever go to a 25 customer's facility? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009086 51 1 A Occasionally. I think I went less than my 2 people, but I occasionally would go. 3 Q Okay. And when you or your people would be 4 going to a customer's facility, would they normally be 5 going to a laboratory or would they be going to a 6 manufacturing plant where the chemical was used or what 7 sort of place would they typically be going to? 8 A I think most of the people that we dealt with 9 had a laboratory in connection with a manufacturing 10 facility. But oftentimes we would talk with the 11 engineering or engineering staffs. And that might just 12 be a conference; we might not get out into the 13 manufacturing facility; we might not get out into the 14 laboratory. 15 Q That depended on the particular 16 circumstances? 17 A Depended on the customer and what he wanted 18 to do. 19 Q Did you have specific people who had some 20 supervisory responsibility over other people on this 21 20-person staff who worked under you? Or was everybody 22 reporting directly to you? 23 A No, we had group leaders. 24 Q Who were your group leaders? 25 A Varied with time, of course. We had group NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009087 52 1 leaders and in some cases we had scientists and we 2 had -- in one case we had a senior scientist and 3 distinguished scientist. The group leaders in the 4 Seventies were John Herber, Lou Stark, Dave Miller. The 5 scientists, Clint Thompson and Dr. Munch, Dr. Thompson. 6 These are all doctors. 7 Q Ph.D.s? 8 A Ph.D. doctors, right. 9 Q How were the groups that these group leaders 10 were over broken down? 11 A Well, Stark in general had fire resistant 12 hydraulics, industrial. 13 Dave Miller had heat transfer and aviation 14 hydraulics. These are not absolutes, but in general. 15 Herber normally had synthesis work, a lot in 16 the hydraulic area. 17 Thompson had, oh, new chemicals, new stuff 18 that we wanted to do. Aromatics in general. He also 19 had tractant fluids when we brought him from central 20 research. 21 Q Who had dielectrics? 22 A Munch had application work ondielectrics. 23 Q So there wasn't a group leader for 24 dielectrics? 25 A Well, he was acting as group leader, but he NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009088 53 really was a distinguished -- was a scientist, senior scientist and I think ultimately a distinguished scientist. Q Is that a title of a position within Monsanto? A In Monsanto there are two ladders you can go up in the research area: You can go up an administrative ladder, so-called, where you become a research chemist and group leader, maybe a section leader, if they have such a thing, research manager, research director, and so forth. Q That's the ladder you took? A That's the ladder I took. The other was scientist -- research chemist first, of course, and then science, science fellow, and there were two or three grades of science fellows. Q And I take it you are indicating to me Dr. Munch reached one of the higher grades in his line. A Yes, in the science area. But they could function in terms of what they did in terms of they did application work and science work. They didn't necessarily do all exploratory work, in other words. Q And did you reach relatively high up the ladder choice that you took? A Relatively high. I normally had a boss who NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009089 54 1 was either -- if I was a research manager, I had a 2 research director as boss. If I were a director, I 3 normally had a general manager of research. 4 0 Who was a Ph.D. scientist? 5 A Yeah. Ph.D. engineer or chemist, yes. . 6 Usually. 7 Q Who worked with Dr. Munch on dielectrics and 8 applications for them? 9 A Well, Munch had two technicians that were 10 working for him. 11 Q And who were they? 12 A Ray Cox was one and he had a woman I don't - 13 remember her name right now. 14 Q Were they also scientists? 15 A No, they were technicians. They would have 16 maybe a year or two degree, something like that, or 17 maybe 10 or 15 years of practical laboratory work. 18 Q So in the dielectric area specifically, Dr. 19 Munch was the only degreed scientist assigned to that 20 area? 21 A That's correct. He also had, of course, and 22 could call on -- when he needed, he could call on 23 synthesis people, he could call on analytical people, he 24 could call on engineers if he needed. 25 Q Now, was Dr. Munch in your specific group of NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009090 33 1 functional fluids when you came there in 1963? 2 A No, he was not. 3 Q Was there anybody fulfilling his role that he 4 later took when you came there in 1963? 5 A There were no -- we did no specific 6 application work in dielectrics in 1963. We did work '7 with manufacturing on things like quality control and 8 TSD groups, manufacturing groups did work on the process 9 itself. But we did no application work when I first 10 came there. 11 Q When did Dr. Munch get assigned to your group 12 and start working with dielectrics? - 13 A I don't have the exact date. We would have 14 to look it up for you. 15 Q Can you give me an approximation? 16 A ' I don't have the date. 17 Q Okay. Well, that's fine. Was it by 1970 18 that he was there? . 19 A Yes. 20 Q Now, in the reorganization that took place in 21 about 1970, did that change your role as the manager of 22 functional fluids over these various things that you've 23 previously told me about? 24 A I had additional duties. I had the paper 25 group, paper chemicals group, as well as the functional NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009091 56 1 fluids group. 2 Q But you kept all the functional fluids. 3 Correct? 4 A Yes. And there were some added 5 responsibilities. We -- they added encapsulin solvents 6 to my -- I don't know the exact date, but it was in the 7 early Seventies. 8 Q What were those? 9 A This is carbonless carbon paper. 10 Q It's where you press down hard and you get 11 three copies? 12 A Right. We provided the solvent for that 13 system, which was originally Aroclor. It was originally 14 assigned to the plasticizer group, then it was 15 reassigned to the fluids group. 16 Q Was there any reason for that reassignment 17 that makes sense? 18 A Yes. We wanted to -- we did not want to 19 furnish Aroclor anymore to that use, and we wanted to 20 reach a replacement product as quickly as possible. 21 Q And therefore it was assigned to your groMp? 22 A That's right. 23 Q Anything else that was added that you can 24 recall in that reorganization? 25 A Those are the principal changes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009092 3/ 1 Q Okay. 2 And after that 1970 or thereabouts 3 reorganization, how long did you remain over this 4 functional fluids plus paper group -- 5 A Excuse me, but I think it was actually done 6 before the reorganization, notcoincidental. 7 Q Okay. 8 A At least as faras the encapsulin solvents. 9 Q Okay. 10 Well, after these additional duties were 11 added, however they came about -- 12 A Yeah. - 13 Q -- how long did you remain as the manager of 14 the functional fluid group that you first picked up in 15 1963? 16 A Approximately '74, I think.Sometime in '74. 17 The exact date I don't remember. 18 Q And from the time that Dr. Munch joined your 19 group, whenever that may have been, until the time that 20 you ceased to have those responsibilities, was Dr. Munch 21 always with your group? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And was he always the person responsible for 24 the dielectrics? 25 A Well, researchresponsibility I think needs NELL NIC CALLUNI & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009093 58 1 to be qualified. He was responsible for the research 2 application work in an administrative sense, reporting 3 to me, but we did -- neither one of us had sole 4 responsible for dielectric fluids as far as Monsanto 5 goes. 6 Q But within your group -- 7 A Within the research department, yes. 8 Q Okay. 9 Now, who replaced you in 1974? 10 A Well, the exact date I'm not sure of, but 11 Marvin Gibbs. 12 Q And did Dr. Munch stay with that group at - 13 least when Marvin Gibbs first replaced you? 14 A I think so. I'm not sure. Munch retired, 15 and I'm not sure of the exact date. But I think he did 16 stay for a while. 17 Q And in 1974 what duty did you get reassigned 18 to? 19 A I was -- I had process chemicals and paper 20 chemicals for a time. 21 Q And was that in any way related to the 22 additional duties that had been assigned to you 23 somewhere around 1970 for the paper groups and the 24 carbonless paper? 25 A Carbonless paper stayed with the fluids NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009094 59 1 group. 2 Q Okay. Did those other functions, any of the 3 paper functions, go with you when you were reassigned? 4 A Well, for a while, for about two years, I had 5 paper and process together. 6 Q Okay. And then -- 7 A I think it was still within the MIC 8 organization. And, I don't know, '76 to '77, somewhere 9 along there, the chemical intermediates group was 10 formed. 11 Q And that took the process chemicals and -- 12 A Took the process chemicals. And I left paper- 13 chemicals. 14 Q All right. And you never came back to the 15 functional fluid area after 1974 or thereabouts? 16 A When I returned to the industrial company, I 17 had partial responsibility for the fluids group. 18 Q Okay. When was that? 19 A I came back in -- it was reorganized, I 20 think, in '83. 21 Q When you say you had partial responsibility. 22 what do you mean? 23 A I had the application work on fluids. The 24 research department was organized in a different way at 25 that time. There were three research directors. I! NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009095 60 1 Dr. Hill had exploratory research and certain 2 growth functions. 3 I had process development, new stuff, and 4 applications. 5 And Marvin Gibbs had the manufacturing 6 process research. 7 Q And before all those had been basically 8 combined under you from 1963 to 1974? 9 A All those functions? Just the fluids is all 10 I had in -- 11 Q Yes, but -- 12 A -- in that time. - 13 Q But the exploration as it related to fluids. 14 the applications and the manufacturing process. 15 A Well, there was one addition. I supported 16 research in the central research department on 17 exploratory work on fluids in that '63 to '74 period. 18 Q When you say you supported it -- 19 A Yeah. 20 Q -- what do you mean? 21 A Provided budget money. 22 Q But the actual work was primarily done by 23 people in the central labs? 24 A Right. 25 Q Okay. Did they report to you in any way or NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. HARTOLDMON0009096 61 1 did the budget money just disappear from your budget? 2 A We kept track of the -- of the products and 3 the process and -- but the administration was in the 4 central research department. 5 Q And this last position that you held, from 6 1983, pertained on up to your retirement? 7 A No. We had another reorganization partway 8 through there, from '83 to '85. The research department 9 was organized or reorganized, and I had specialty 10 products. 11 Q And what were specialty products? 12 A What came back as process chemicals in - 13 general, what came back as functional fluids. I had 14 methanol in Texas City, acetic acid in Texas City. 15 Q Is that where you were when you retired? 16 A That's where I was when I retired. 17 Q Okay. What age were you at your retirement? 18 A Sixty-three. 19 Q Was that a normal retirement age for somebody 20 in your -- 21 A Well, 65 is the normal. Probably 18 months 22 early. 23 Q Was that part of some special program that 24 Monsanto was having? 25 A It was an incentive-for-retirement program. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009097 1 Q So you got your regular retirement plus 2 something else to retire? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Let me go back now and try to understand a 5 little bit better some of the things that went on in the 6 group that you managed from 1963 forward as relates 7 specifically to the matters that are involved in the 8 lawsuit we're here on. Have you had a chance to visit 9 with Mr. Shoebotham, Monsanto's lawyer, or other 10 Monsanto lawyers about this lawsuit? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Are you aware of what chemicals are involved 13 at issue in the lawsuit? 14 A I think maybe you should inform me. 15 Q Well, we're talking about what I refer to as 16 PCBs. And other chemicals that may arise out of that. 17 But do you know what I mean when I say PCBs? 18 A Polychlorinated biphenyl? Is that your -- 19 Q Yes. 20 A Okay. 21 Q Let me just ask so we can be clear. Is a 22 polychlorinated biphenyl the same thing as a chlorinated 23 biphenyl that you previously referred to? 24 A Chlorinated biphenyl might be the same or it 25 might be monochlorobiphenyl. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009098 63 1 Q Okay. 2 A We dealt with that product at times. 3 Q Let's see if we can sort some of these things 4 out so we can have some similar terminology. First, in 5 the term "chlorinated biphenyl" what is a phenyl? 6 A Usually refers to a part of a six-membered 7 ring with five hydrogens connected with it. It's not 8 really an entity, it's just a convenient organic 9 component of a molecule. 10 Q Okay. And when we use the term "bi" there 11 are two of them? 12 A Yes. Two joined together in that sense. - 13 Q I've seen sometimes the term "diphenyl" as 14 opposed to "biphenyl." Is diphenyl another way of 15 saying the same thing chemically as a biphenyl? 16 A Yeah. I think diphenyl is probably more 17 correct, but both are used. 18 Q So when we talk about a chlorinated biphenyl 19 or a chlorinated diphenyl, we're talking about the same 20 type of general chemical structure? 21 A We are. 22 Q Then, if I understand correctly, you 23 indicated that not all chlorinated biphenyls or 24 chlorinated diphenyls are polychlorinated. Correct? 25 A Correct. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009099 0*1 1 Q And when we say poly, we mean more than one? 2 A More than one. 3 Q So that if we had a diphenyl molecule that 4 had only one chlorine atom as a part of the molecule, we 5 would have monochlorobiphenyl? 6 A That would be a convenient way of -- correct 7 way of putting it, I think. 8 Q Is there any other way we should put it 9 besides that, or another way of saying it? 10 . A Other than the code designation. 11 Q Okay. Where we give a specific location for 12 that chlorine molecule -- - 13 A Yeah, that could be. Or product name, for 14 example. 15 Q Okay. What was the Monsanto product name for 16 monochlorobiphenyl? 17 A It was monochlorobiphenyl, but MCS numbers 18 were also used at times. 19 Q Okay. 20 A Monsanto chemical sample. And a numerical 21 designation. 22 Q Was there more than one MCS number for a 23 monochlorobiphenyl? 24 A There could have been. The MCS numbers were 25 used for new chemicals, for new formulations. So they NELL MC CALLUM 8t ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009100 65 1 were specific to that particular formulation or that 2 particular batch, that particular product, trial 3 product. 4 Q Now, if we have polychlorinated biphenyl or 5 polychlorinated diphenyl, we're then talking about one 6 of these diphenyl molecules that has more than one 7 chlorine atom attached to it. Is that correct? 8 A Correct. 9 Q We have here a blackboard that has on it some 10 paper. And I'd like, if I could, to get you to draw for 11 us the way scientists draw in a schematic fashion what a 12 biphenyl looks like. Can you do that for us? - 13 A I'll attempt to. 14 Q Let me hand you a marker. Is there some 15 color that is appropriately -- 16 A ' Black is fine. 17 Q Black is fine? 18 A There are different ways. [Marking] 19 Q Now, you've drawn -- let me see if I can 20 . count. Those are pentagons, I guess, with a circle in 21 the middle. 22 A Hexagons. 23 Q Hexagons. They're six-sided? 24 A Six. 25 Q Okay. And what's represented at each one of NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009101 66 1 those points in that -- in each of those two hexagons? 2 A Usually refers to carbon hydrogen plus 3 another two bonds or valences or electrons, four 4 electrons, that are free to move, free to bond. 5 Q Let me get you to stand over. The video 6 person tells us they can't see with you immediately in 7 front of the drawing. Could I get you to stand to the 8 right of that where they can see what you've drawn for 9 us? Good. 10 In order to increase my understanding, I'm 11 going to hand you, I guess, a red marker here. Could 12 you just put a C at each point where there is a carbon 13 atom in that diphenyl or biphenyl structure? 14 A [Marking] 15 Q So the diphenyl or biphenyl has a total of. 16 looks like, if I count correctly, 12 carbon atoms in the 17 molecule? 18 A Right. 19 Q Now, what in the biphenyl exists in addition 20 to the carbon molecules that we've shown, simply one 21 hydrogen atom attached to each one of those carbons? 22 A Yes, as far as other elements go, yes. 23 Q So if we were looking at the chemical 24 nomenclature for this we would have a C 12 H -- what 25 would that be? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009102 67 1 A Be 10. 2 Q H 10. And why are there not 12 hydrogens to 3 go with the 12 carbons? 4 A You've got -- 5 Q You may want to demonstrate to show me what 6 you are talking about. 7 A Maybe I was wrong. We've got [marking] like 8 so. 9 Q So we do have 10 hydrogens. And at one place 10 where the rings come together there's no hydrogens 11 between those carbons? 12 A Right. 13 Q And that's where theybond together? 14 A They bondtogether. 15 Q If we had one of those rings by itself, what 16 would that be known as? 17 A Benzene. 18 Q Okay. 19 A But that's not a phenylgroup. 20 Q When you put two of them together they become 21 phenyls? 22 A No. A phenyl group does not exist in normal 23 conditions by itself. 24 Q Well, if we have -- let me ask you to draw -- 25 why don't you just, put up above what you've drawn right NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009103 DO 1 there "diphenyl" or "biphenyl," whichever the 2 appropriate nomenclature is. 3 VIDEO OPERATOR: Excuse me. Before we go on, 4 I need to take a short pause. 5 MR. LACEY: Fine. 6 [Recess] 7 VIDEO OPERATOR: Okay. We're ready to go 8 back on. 9 THE WITNESS: [Marking] 10 MR. LACEY: 11 Q Now let me ask you to draw over on the 12 right-hand side of the chart there, up at the top, just - 13 across from the biphenyl or diphenyl, what a benzene 14 molecule looks like. 15 A [Marking] Done this way or this way. 16 [Marking] Not the same molecule, though. 17 Q Well, can you explain the difference to me 18 between those two different benzene molecules that you 19 have drawn? 20 A This is a benzene molecule. That's a 21 biphenyl molecule. 22 Q Oh, I see. There are two different ways of 23 drawing a benzene molecule chemically? 24 A Yeah, two early models of how a structure 25 might look. . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009104 69 1 Q But those are both actually the same 2 chemical? 3 A Yeah. I've just drawn a circle to indicate 4 the electrons are free to move here as a more classical. 5 older method of sharing the aromatic content or 6 structure. 7 Q Could I get you to use the red pen and mark 8 where the carbon molecules are in those benzene 9 molecules? 10 A [Marking] 11 Q Now, let me ask you, if I am going to try to 12 make diphenyl, do I start with benzene and turn it into 13 diphenyl? 14 A That's one way. 15 Q And what I need to do to accomplish that is 16 to get two of the hydrogen molecules that are attached 17 to two adjoining benzene rings to go away and join the 18 two rings together at that point. Is that correct? 19 A Two of the hydrogen atoms. 20 Q Two hydrogen atoms go away? 21 A Right. 22 Q And instead of those two carbons being bonded 23 to hydrogen, they're bonded to each other? 24 A Right. 25 Q And once I've done that I have a diphenyl or NELL MC CALLUM 8t ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009105 70 1 biphenyl molecule? 2 A Correct. 3 Q In essence, if I can take benzene and replace 4 two hydrogens with a carbon bond where they were, I have 5 diphenyl. Correct? 6 A That's one way ofmaking it. 7 Q Okay. 8 Now let's talk about a chlorinated diphenyl. 9 What makes a diphenyl a chlorinated diphenyl? 10 A Add chlorine to the aromatic structure. 11 Q And when you talk about an aromatic 12 structure, what do you mean? 13 A I mean you replace thehydrogen with chlorine 14 without adding any more chlorines to that particular 15 bond or leaving the hydrogen out. 16 Q ' Let me ask this. When you say an aromatic 17 structure, what's an aromatic structure? 18 A Indicated -- that's an aromatic structure 19 with the number of hydrogens and the structure with 20 either the electrons shown here as the three double 21 bonds or this as spread the three double bonds out in 22 that circle. 23 Q So benzene is an aromatic structure? 24 A Benzene is considered an aromatic. 25 Q And diphenyl is also an aromatic structure? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009106 71 1 A Right. 2 Q And so to make -- Let me ask you to draw, if 3 you could, just below the diphenyl that you have drawn. 4 a monochlorodiphenyl. And I think that there are 5 different types, in terms of molecular number or in 6 terms of number, but just draw any one of them for us so 7 we can see what it looks like. 8 A [Marking] I have to take one hydrogen off 9 here, but the chlorine could be anywhere on one of those 10 rings. 11 Q Let me ask you to just draw one by picking a 12 particular spot for the chlorine, wherever you might - 13 choose to put it, so we can see how it would be drawn. 14 A All right. Let's put it here. [Marking] 15 Q Okay. 16 And let me ask you to take the red pen and 17 show where the carbon atoms show up in that molecule 18 that you've drawn. 19 A [Marking] 20 Q And let me hand you a blue pen and ask you to 21 mark where the chlorine atom is in that molecule that 22 you've drawn. 23 A In the numbered position? 24 Q Wherever you choose to put it, yes, numbered 25 position. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009107 / . 1 A All right. Chlorine here? 2 Q If that's where you've put it, that's fine. 3 A I've put it in the pair position. 4 Q Okay. Now, let me just get you to label 5 above what you've drawn there that that's a -- if I'm 6 correct -- a monochlorodiphenyl. 7 A [Marking] This is out of there. 8 Q Do you need to mark that out or something to 9 make it clear? 10 A Uh-huh. [Marking] 11 Q Now, would it be possible for that particular 12 chlorine atom to be replaced in lieu of any one of the 13 hydrogen atoms that had been attached to the diphenyl 14 that was not chlorinated? 15 A Now, would you repeat that, please, Mr. 16 Lacey? 17 Q Yes. Would it be possible, in making a 18 monochlorodiphenyl, to have the single chlorine molecule 19 that replaces a hydrogen atom in any one of the 20 positions that a hydrogen atom was attached to the 21 diphenyl? 22 A It's possible. But you would have to work 23 hard at it. It would go preferentially in probably the 24 2-4 position. 25 Q Can you explain for us how scientists number NELL MCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009108 73 1 these different positions? And maybe -- 2 A You're beginning to stretch my organic 3 chemistry. 4 Q Well, I certainly don't want to do that, 5 but -- 6 A Okay. [Marking] 7 Q Is that last one No. 12? 8 A 12. I guess it would be 12. 9 Q And so the -- 10 A These are blocked out, essentially. 11 Q Right. The chlorine -- I'm sorry. The 12 carbon atoms then are numbered by way of their location.13 And when you start -- when you talk about a particular 14 position, the chlorine atom is likely to go to, you use 15 that number to identify it? 16 A That's one way, sure. Right. 17 Q And that's what you've drawn for us here? 18 A Yes, in the simple biphenyl case. 19 Q And what number position is that that is a 20 likely position for a monochlorodiphenyl? 21 A I've drawn it in the 4 position. The 2 22 position is also possible. 23 Q And in the 2 position it would be in the 24 upper left-hand spot on the right-hand section of the 25 molecule. Is that correct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009109 74 1 A Well, it depends on how you number it, but 2 here -- by our numbering here. But it could also be in 3 either one. 4 Q I see. So there would be one, two, three -- 5 six likely places for it to be? 6 A Most likely. But you're gonna get a whole -- 7 you're gonna get not a hundred percent. 8 Q Fine. 9 A You'll even get some in a 3 position. 10 Q Okay. In an odd position, so to speak? 11 A Yeah, yeah. You have a preference, but you 12 don't have an absolute guiding factor. 13 Q Okay. And if I understand correctly, there 14 would actually be ten different possible 15 monochlorodiphenyl molecules. 16 A No. 17 Q Why is that not true? 18 A Well, you have symmetry. 19 Q In other words, if I flipped it over there 20 are really only -- 21 A Yeah. I don't know whether you've got three 22 or whatever it is, but -- 23 Q Okay. I've noticed occasionally some people 24 number these things with 1 through 6 and 1 through 6 25 prime. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9110 75 1 A That's possible. 2 Q If one has a nomenclature like that, would 3 you then have six possible spots where you don't flip it 4 over in terms of looking at its location? 5 A You still, I think, only have a limited 6 number of isomers. 7 Q Okay. 8 A They're all -- they're all symmetry, not 9 really different, even though they look like it on the 10 page. 11 Q Okay. 12 Now, in order to make our monochlorodiphenyl 13 into a polychlorinated diphenyl, what we would need to 14 do is remove one or more of the remaining hydrogen atoms 15 and replace it with a chlorine atom. Is that correct? 16 A ' That's correct. 17 Q And can you make a polychlorinated diphenyl 18 that replaces every one of the hydrogen atoms with a 19 chlorine atom? 20 A It's a very difficult job. I wouldn't say 21 it's impossible, but it's very difficult. 22 Q Just like some of the locations for the 23 monochloro with the location of the chlorine atom is not 24 a likely thing to do. Is that correct? 25 A Yeah. And you would get what chemists would NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9111 76 1 normally call steric hindrance. You would get so many 2 chlorines on there another one can't get in. 3 Q Okay. 4 Now, in terms of the theoretical range of 5 possible numbers of chlorine atoms that could be 6 attached to a diphenyl, and their varying locations, how 7 many different theoretical possibilities are there? 8 A I don't remember. But there are a number. 9 Q Okay. And I take it that if one is actually 10 in production chlorinating a diphenyl what you'll 11 actually produce will not be all of the theoretical 12 possibilities in any substantial amounts. Is that - 13 correct? 14 A I'd have to remember the number of isomers 15 and so forth, which I don't remember. But it would be a 16 percentage of that, which might be something like maybe 17 50 percent. 18 Q I've seen a number in excess of 200 for the 19 potential different isomers and congeners of chlorinated 20 biphenyl. Does that sound familiar to you? 21 A I don't really remember the exact number. 22 Q Okay. 23 Can you tell us what an isomer is when a 24 chemist uses that term? 25 A It would be the same empirical structure. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9112 // 1 carbon hydrogen chlorine in this case, but the position 2 of the chlorine and of the hydrogens would be different. 3 would be distinguishable. 4 Q Let me see if I understand what you mean. I 5 want to look at the monochlorodiphenyl molecule that you 6 have drawn for us. On the monochlorodiphenyl molecule 7 that you have drawn for us, you've shown the chlorine 8 atom in the No. 4 position. Correct? 9 A Right. 10 Q If that chlorine atom had instead been in the 11 No. 2 position, would that be an isomer of what you have 12 drawn? - 13 A Yes, I would call it an isomer of 14 monochlorobiphenyl. 15 Q How does a scientist give a shorthand 16 rendition of the chemical content of that 17 monochlorodiphenyl molecule you have? 18 A They would probably put 4 chlorobiphenyl. 19 Q And that would indicate the specific location 20 of the chlorine atom on the biphenyl? 21 A Right. 22 Q And if we had moved the chlorine atom to the 23 No. 2 position, would it then be called 2 24 chlorobiphenyl? 25 A Yes. . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9113 /a 1 Q And that would be an isomer of 4 2 chlorobiphenyl? 3 A Right. 4 Q What is a congener when a chemist uses that 5 term? 6 A I'm not familiar with that term. 7 Q I see. 8 When I have two chlorine atoms attached to my 9 diphenyl, is that a polychlorinated diphenyl? 10 A By our definition, yes. 11 Q When you say "our definition," is that a 12 Monsanto definition? - 13 A You and I have agreed this morning that we 14 would call two poly. Some people might go to three and 15 agree on that, but -- 16 Q Well, is there any general agreement within 17 the chemical industry about what constitutes a 18 polychlorinated biphenyl? 19 A I think the general agreement would be more 20 than one. 21 Q Okay. So if we have as many as two 22 chlorines, up to ten, all of those would be 23 polychlorinated biphenyls? 24 A Right. 25 Q Now, let me ask about additional changes that NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9114 79 1 may occur in structures that have some similarity. Are 2 you familiar with dibenzofuran? 3 A Just slightly. 4 Q Could you draw us the structure for a 5 dibenzofuran? In the same structure you've drawn us the 6 structure. for example, for a diphenyl. 7 A [Marking] 8 Q And can I get you to take the red marker and 9 show where the carbon atoms are in that? 10 A [Marking] 11 Q I see there two lines, one coming from each 12 side of the diphenyl going down to a zero. What does 13 that symbolize? 14 A The zero is an oxygen atom. 15 Q Let me get you to use this green marker to 16 color in the oxygen atom for us. 17 A [Marking] 18 Q Now, is it possible with a furan, or actually 19 I guess the term -- what is the term that chemists use 20 dibenzofuran or furan? 21 A This molecule would be dibenzofuran. Furan 22 is another -- another kind of molecule. Another 23 molecule. 24 Q Let me get you to label that dibenzofuran so 25 we'll know what that is. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9115 80 1 A [Marking] 2 Q The di in that name stands for two? 3 A Yes. 4 Q The benzo, does that stand for the benzene -- 5 the two benzene rings? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And what makes it a furan? 8 A Well, furan is a five-ring with an oxygen. 9 So this is the furan part of the molecule here. 10 Q I see. 11 A Furan itself is just that separate without 12. all the other parts. - 13 Q In order to make a diphenyl into a 14 dibenzofuran, two of the hydrogen molecules are replaced 15 by a single oxygen. Is that correct? 16 A If you're talking about just the replacement 17 structure, that's possibly correct. If you're talking 18 about the actual mechanism, it may or may not be 19 correct 20 Q Okay. But in terms of what physically 21 happens looking at the structure -- 22 A Looking at the structure, I agree. 23 Q Okay. 24 There are also dibenzodioxins, are there not? 25 A Yes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9116 81 1 Q Can you draw us a dibenzodioxin? 2 A [Marking] 3 Q Can I get you to go ahead and use the red 4 marker to mark in the carbon atoms and then the green 5 marker to mark in the oxygen atoms? 6 A [Marking] 7 Q It appears from what you've drawn in order 8 to -- and let me get you to label that, too, while 9 you're up, so we'll know that is a dibenzodioxin that 10 you have drawn there. 11 A [Marking] I'm not sure of the spelling. 12 What is it? i-n? - 13 Q I'm not sure I know. 14 A I never dealt with these compounds. 15 Q i-n, I think, but I'm not sure. 16 A i-n? Or a-n? 17 Q If we use i-n, we'll all play like that's the 18 correct spelling. 19 A Okay. 20 VIDEO OPERATOR: Give me a few seconds. 21 [Recess] 22 VIDEO OPERATOR: We're now back on the 23 record. 24 MR. LACEY: 25 Q Looking at the diagram you've drawn of the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9117 82 1 dibenzodioxin, it differs from the dibenzofuran by 2 having replaced the hydrogen atoms on both sides of the 3 bond between the two benzene rings with oxygen atoms. 4 Is that correct? 5 A By our diagram, yes. 6 Q Okay. And the diagram you've drawn is the 7 diagram that chemists usually draw to demonstrate that 8 molecule, is it not? 9 A Yes. Within my knowledge. 10 Q Now, is it possible to replace the remaining 11 hydrogen atoms on the dibenzofuran molecule with 12 chlorine molecules? 13 A I have no direct experience with this. But 14 from a standpoint of if you want to talk about paper 15 chemistry, it should replace. 16 Q Okay. Have you ever heard of chlorinated 17 dibenzofurans? ' 18 A I've heard of chlorinated dibenzofurans. 19 Q And have you heard of polychlorinated 20 dibenzofurans? 21 A I have heard of polychlorinated 22 dibenzofurans. 23 Q And you've heard of them as existing in the 24 world of chemicals that are created. Is that correct? 25 A In rare instances. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9118 83 1 Q I see. 2 Is it possible to -- Well, even before I ask 3 that, in understanding the nomenclature for the 4 dibenzodioxin, the di stands for the two benzene rings. 5 Is that correct? 6 A Yes. You're getting a little bit out of my 7 field, though, because we never did any real work 8 with -- at least in a synthesis area -- with the 9 dibenzofuran or dibenzodioxin. 10 Q I'm just trying to understand the 11 nomenclature right now. 12 A Well, okay. I'm not familiar with all the 13 nomenclature with regard to that. 14 Q I see. So you don't know whether the dibenzo 15 portion of the name refers to the two benzene rings? 16 A Well, I'm sure it does. When you start to 17 number that ring, I'm not sure how that numbering goes. 18 Q I don't intend to start asking you how to 19 number the ring. I was just going to try to establish. 20 if we can, that the dibenzodioxin -- the dibenzo refers 21 to the two benzene rings. Correct? 22 A Yes, that seems correct. 23 Q And the dioxin portion refers to the fact 24 that on either side an oxygen atom has replaced two 25 hydrogens. Is that correct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9119 84 1 A That's right. 2 Q And the reason the oxygen can replace two 3 hydrogens is because it has the ability to bond to two 4 different atoms at the same time. Is that correct? 5 A Right. 6 Q The reason hydrogen only bonds in one place 7 is because it can only bond to one other atom at a time? 8 A Correct. 9 Q And the reason chlorine only exists in one 10 place is because it can only bond to one other atom at a 11 time. Is that correct? 12 A Would you repeat that statement? Because it - 13 might not be quite clear. ' 14 Q Yes. Can chlorine bond to more than one 15 other atom at the same time? 16 A Normally not. 17 Q Okay. 18 Now, do you know whether or not the 19 hydrogen -- well, in fact, strike that. 20 There are attached to the dibenzodioxin, in 21 the places that it's not bonded together, hydrogen 22 atoms, are there not? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Would you draw those up there for us, please? 25 A I'm not certain why you're -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009120 U 1 Q You need to draw them, I think, in black is 2 what we' ve been using. 3 A In black? All right. 4 Q I have another black marker if that one is 5 giving up the ghost. 6 A [Marking] I assume it would be that way. 7 I'm not familiar with dibenzodioxin chemistry. 8 Q Okay. 9 A That would appear to be correct. 10 Q All right. 11 Do you keep up with the literature in the 12 chemical field? - 13 A Since my retirement, only in I'd say a 14 partial way. 15 Q Do you receive any of the monthly 16 publications that are put out in the scientific area? 17 A I read Chemical Engineering News, I read more 18 general stuff, Scientific American, Discovery, magazines 19 such as this. 20 Q In all the reading -- you've done that for 21 several years? 22 A Well, since my retirement. 23 Q You didn't read those before you retired? 24 A Yes, I read them before. 25 Q Did you have your own personal subscription NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9121 86 1 to those? 2 A Yes. 3 Q With all the interest that has come about in 4 recent years about dioxins, do you recall seeing any 5 articles on dioxins in those publications? 6 A I've seen articles on dioxins, mainly 7 analytical. Or photochemistry. 8 Q And you read those? 9 A I let's say maybe read the abstracts. 10 Q Okay. 11 Are you aware of whether or not chlorine 12 atoms can replace any or all of the hydrogen atoms in 13 dibenzodioxin? 14 A The answer is yes. Papers have been out on 15 this subject. 16 Q All right. 17 Now let me shift gears just a little bit and 18 ask about your familiarity with the actual manufacturing 19 processes used by Monsanto to make chlorinated, be it 20 mono or polychlorinated diphenyl. Are you familiar with 21 those processes? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Okay. Was it a responsibility of your group, 24 the functional fluids group, at any time from 1963 25 through 1974 to assist the actual manufacturing NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9122 operations in their work of producing chlorinated diphenyl? A We did not do any synthetic work on the process. The technical service staffs at both Anniston and at Krummrich were involved. But the research department did not do any synthesis work on chlorinated biphenyl as such. Or if we did, it was very limited. Q What do you mean by synthesis work? A Well, where we would be involved in direct chlorination or isomer preparations. Q What sort of assistance did you give to the manufacturing operations? - A We would monitor, read the TSD reports, read the manufacturing reports and make sure that we thought the safety rules and the manufacturing operations were sound. But we did not do, you know, hands-on chemical research during that period, or very little. Q What is a TSD report? A Technical service department in the manufacturing. They would be engineers assigned to the plant to improve the process. Q And those people were actually located at the manufacturing plants? A That's normally correct, yes. Q And did they report to the managers of the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9123 88 1 plant or did they report to the research group in 2 St. Louis or to whom did they report? 3 A In general, in the early days that we're 4 talking about, earlier days, they reported to 5 manufacturing. After that period, later in that period, 6 they did report for a short time to the research 7 department. But in the Eighties. 8 Q But not to your group? 9 A For a short period I had the clean TSD group 10 that was reorganized and put back into manufacturing. 11 Q Let's talk -- 12 A I hada small chemical group aspart of the - 13 manufacturing operation at Krummrich, but it was not 14 called TSD at that time. It was a TSD group. We had a 15 small, chemical-oriented group at Krummrich. 16 Q Let's talk about the plants that produced 17 chlorinated diphenyl or chlorinated biphenyl, whichever 18 name we use. In fact, maybe the easiest thing now is to 19 talk about PCBs and just use that term. Is that 20 agreeable with you? 21 A It's agreeable with me. 22 Q Okay.What plants produced PCBs for 23 Monsanto? 24 A The plant at Anniston, Alabama, and the plant 25 at Sauget, Krummrich, are the two U. S. plants. United NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9124 ay 1 States plants. 2 Q I have seen references to a plant in 3 St. Louis and maybe the Queeny plant indicating that at 4 some point in time they had something to do with PCBs. 5 A They ran a blending operation. A blending 6 operation. 7 Q They didn't actually produce the PCBs, they 8 just mixed them together? 9 A They blended them into hydraulic fluids or 10 sometimes we would blend stabilizers into the aroclors. 11 COURT REPORTER: Into the -- 12 THE WITNESS: Aroclors. Or we've agreed - 13 PCBs. 14 MR. LACEY: 15 Q Well, let me get that cleared up. A word 16 that Monsanto used to describe PCBs as a trade name was 17 Aroclor, was it not? 18 A Yes. 19 Q In fact, could I get you just up there to 20 write the word "Aroclor" on our tablet so we'll know 21 what we're talking about? 22 A [Marking] 23 Q That'sAroclor? 24 A Right. 25 Q And that's the same thing as a PCB. Correct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9125 yu 1 A Yeah, by our definition. 2 Q Okay. Well, is that how Monsanto would use 3 it, too? I mean I don't want -- 4 A Well, during all this time I think that 5 Monsanto would use the terms "chlorinated biphenyl" or 6 Aroclor or Pyranol or Inerteen. These were trade names 7 by Westinghouse and GE. PCBs were -- came in much 8 later. 9 Q Okay. Well, maybe I should just get you to 10 write up there for us -- you've already written Aroclor. 11 Write all the other names that Monsanto used to 12 designate products containing PCBs. - 13 A Okay. Monsanto used Aroclor, chlorinated 14 biphenyl. [Marking] Now, when we were making other 15 products, these are other people's trade names. I'm not 16 sure I've got the spelling right on that one. 17 Irtterteen, Pyranol. I think this is a Westinghouse, GE. 18 But there were many others around the world that had 19 different trade names associated with that. 20 Q Okay. So one product -- 21 A There were many other manufacturers and trade 22 names around the world that were associated with 23 chlorinated biphenyl. Bayer in Germany, Kanakafuchee 24 (phonetically) in Japan, Italy had manufacture, France 25 had manufacture. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9126 91 1 Q Am I correct in understanding that the same 2 chemical that Monsanto would call Aroclor you are saying 3 Westinghouse would call Inerteen? 4 A That was their name for it, yes. 5 Q And so if we had a jar of it sitting on my 6 coffee table here today in front of you, it would be 7 called by you as Monsanto Aroclor, and if we had someone 8 from Westinghouse they would call that same thing 9 Inerteen, and someone from GE would call it Pyranol? 10 A They might do that, right. 11 Q Okay. 12 Now, you mentioned that there were other - 13 people around the world who manufactured PCBs. Is that 14 correct? 15 A That's right. 16 Q Who else manufactured PCBs in the United 17 States? 18 A Monsanto was the sole manufacturer of 19 polychlorinated biphenyl during the time we're talking 20 about. 21 Q Was there any period of time in the United 22 States when anybody other than Monsanto manufactured 23 PCBs? 24 A I don't know. On a limited basis there might 25 have been others. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9127 92 1 Q Are you aware of anyone? 2 A I think standard chlorinemight have at one 3 time. I'm not sure about that. I think Dow probably 4 made some inadvertently possibly. 5 Q But not to sell? 6 A I can't -- I can't operate that -- I can't 7 tell you that operation. But not to sell very much of 8 it, anyway. 9 Q Okay. 10 Why, to the extent you know, did nobody else 11 besides Monsanto make any appreciable quantities of PCBs 12 in the United States? 13 A I think the investment was considerable in 14 terms of when you look at the biphenyl, the quality of 15 the biphenyl that was required, capital investment that 16 went into making biphenyl, and the purity and price of 17 the final product. In other words, it was not 18 profitable for somebody else to go in. 19 Q You mentioned to me earlier that sometimes 20 chemicals are patented. Do you know whether or not 21 Aroclor or PCBs were a patented chemical? 22 A Monsanto had not a patent. I think the 23 patents -- application patents were issued to -- to 24 General Electric. And, of course, then other electrical 25 manufacturers had various combinations of NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9128 yj 1 polychlorinated biphenyl and various stabilizers and 2 various end-use patents. 3 Q So if I'm understanding what you are telling 4 me correctly, there was no patent restriction that would 5 keep any other manufacturers from making PCBs? 6 A That's largely correct, yes. 7 Q And nobody else chose to enter the field 8 significantly for whatever reason? 9 A Well, for the reasons I think I've 10 enumerated. The capital cost and the profitability were 11 not -- not there. 12 Q Are you telling me that PCBs were a - 13 relatively unprofitable chemical for Monsanto? 14 A Well, profitability is relative. But in 15 order to enter the manufacture, you had to invest 16 capital in biphenyl or get biphenyl of a high purity. 17 And that was difficult to do. You could always make 18 that investment if you wanted to. I think people chose 19 not to. 20 Q Well, I guess my question was whether you're 21 telling me that the profit margin on the manufacture of 22 biphenyl was such that it would not be attractive to 23 anyone else to enter the market. 24 A It's not the profit margin. It would be the 25 profit margin and the volume and what they could sell it NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9129 94 1 for that would be important. They would have to 2 calculate that. And I'm sure they did. 3 Q Do chemical companies, in making decisions 4 about what products to manufacture and how many places _5 to manufacture them and by what process, take into 6 account all those factors to arrive at a decision? 7 A If they are astute in the economic area, 8 they -- they will do so. 9 Q And whether or not a particular chemical 10 company chooses to manufacture a particular chemical 11 will depend upon the economics of that process, if 12 they're astute? - 13 A I confined it to their economic 14 consideration. There may be other considerations. They 15 might want to make it for reasons of protection for 16 another product; they might be asked by a particular 17 customer to make it; there are many other reasons why 18 you would make a chemical. 19 Q Well, let me ask this. Is it generally true 20 that chemical companies don't make chemicals -- 21 particular chemicals unless they can be sold profitably? 22 A Well, I've indicated there are some cases 23 where if you want to protect a downstream product or 24 make a downstream product you might well want to make 25 the intermediate for that and you might not make a NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009130 ys 1 profit on that intermediate/ or it would be a very low 2 profit. 3 Q But the overall profitability of the entire 4 process is there. Correct? 5 A Somewhere along the line you've got to have 6 enough profit to make the chemical and stay in business. 7 Q Okay. And I suppose Monsanto was a 8 financially-astute chemical company. 9 A Sometimes. 10 Q By the way, Monsanto is not an oil company in 11 the sense of producing oil or gas or exploring for it or 12 anything like that. Is that correct? - 13 A Well, I think they've sold their assets now, 14 but they bought Lion Oil. And I don't know the year. 15 So we did have an oil exploratory program, a small one, 16 and we did operate wells. We even operated a refinery 17 for a little bit. 18 Q Okay. That was something that Monsanto 19 acquired after it started working as a chemical company? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And subsequently disposed of? 22 A Well, the Lion Oil operation was integrated 23 largely into the agricultural company. They made 24 ammonia, made ammonium nitrate, and they did -- I think 25 they disposed of the refinery early. But we did operate NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9131 96 1 oil wells and explored for a number of years after that. 2 Q But Monsanto is no longer doing that. 3 Correct? . 4 A I think they sold -- it was up for sale. I'm 5 not sure whether they sold it or not. 6 Q As a chemical company, Monsanto does use oil 7 as a feedstock for some of its processes, does it not? 8 A It did at that time. They're less dependent. 9 They sold, as you said, Texas City; they sold part of 10 Alvin. So they're a lot less in that business than they 11 were. 12 Q Okay. - 13 What other feedstocks, general sources of 14 chemicals, does Monsanto use besides oil? 15 A Salt, sulfur, phosphate rock. Gosh, I don't 16 know. A host of small things. But those are the 17 principal elements on which it's built. 18 [Recess] 19 VIDEO OPERATOR: We're now back on the 20 record. 21 MR. LACEY: 22 Q Dr. Richard, does Monsanto take these very 23 basic chemicals and from that manufacture most of the 24 feedstock products for its more complex chemicals? - 25 A They do this in certain areas, yes, certain NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9132 97 1 lines of products. 2 Q Weil, let me go -- 3 A Like styrene and acetic acid and methanol. 4 Natural gas is another product, I guess it's 5 oil-related. Benzene we use. Benzene we use. 6 Q Where do you get benzene? 7 A We usually buy it, although we've also got it 8 from Alvin, from our own operations there. 9 Q Was the Alvin plant the one known as the 10 Chocolate Bayou plant? 11 A Chocolate Bayou. 12 Q Let me ask specifically now about the - 13 manufacture of PCBs. What chemical or chemicals did 14 Monsanto start with in its process of manufacturing 15 PCBs? 16 A ' We started with benzene. 17 Q And from whom would you get benzene? 18 A I don't know specifically. But Exxon and our 19 own operations. But I don't know whether it was 20 exclusively from one or the other. We also probably 21 bought on occasion from other sources. But you would 22 have to go to purchasing for that. 23 Q When you get benzene, is that a liquid? 24 A Normally, yes. 25 Q Okay. And is the first step in manufacturing NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9133 98 1 a PCB from benzene to create diphenyl? 2 'A Correct. 3 Q Let me get you to use the blue marker up 4 there to just draw an arrow showing that the first step 5 is to go from benzene to diphenyl in the process of 6 manufacturing PCBs. At least as far as Monsanto's steps 7 of manufacture are concerned. You might use the blue 8 one. I hope it's got more ink than that black one seems 9 to. 10 A The black one? Okay. [Marking] Sorry about 11 that. I think the problem is -- 12 Q We've left them uncapped? - 13 A I think so. [Marking] 14 Q Okay. So you've now drawn the first step 15 that is taken by Monsanto. 16 A Was taken by Monsanto. 17 Q Was taken. 18 A Was taken. 19 Q I'm sorry. Okay. Monsanto is no longer 20 manufacturing PCBs. Is that correct? 21 A Right. 22 Q When did they stop? 23 A I'm not sure about that. 'll, I think. 24 Q And what was the reason that Monsanto stopped 25 manufacturing PCBs? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9134 1 A I think the electrical industry found 2 replacements for the products. 3 Q Was there anything that moved them toward 4 that step in the 1970s? 5 A Sure. I'm sure there was. 6 Q Do you know what it was? 7 A It would be environmental concerns. 8 Q Anything else? 9 A Government potential action. But Monsanto 10 moved earlier than that. Earlier than regulations. 11 Q What regulations are you talking about? 12 A I think that polychlorinated biphenyls were 13 considered an environmental industrial compound that did 14 not belong in the environment; therefore, it was used as 15 an example in TSCA legislation or pending legislation. 16 Q What is TSCA legislation? 17 A It was the foundation for the EPA agency. 18 Q Is TSCA an acronym that stands for something? 19 A I'm not sure what that stands for. 20 Q Okay. 21 Now, so Monsanto has ceased manufacture. But 22 when it was manufactured, the first step would be to 23 take some of the benzene that we've shown on our piece 24 of paper here and convert it to diphenyl and simple 25 hydrogen gas. Correct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9135 1 A That's the simplest part of the operation. 2 yes. 3 Q Okay. 4 Now, what was the second step taken by 5 Monsanto to convert benzene into PCBs? 6 A Distillation of biphenyl. 7 Q And what was involved in the distillation of 8 the biphenyl? 9 A Separation from terphenyl. 10 Q What is terphenyl? 11 A Three phenyl groups put together. 12 Q So that would be three benzene rings - 13 connected together? 14 A Yeah. Right. 15 Q And where did that come from? 16 A It came from the pyrolysis of benzene to 17 biphenyl . 18 Q What is pyrolysis? 19 A Heating in the absence of oxygen or air or 20 anything else. You pass benzene through a hot tube. 21 Q And in the process you make diphenyl, which 22 is what you're trying to make? 23 A We also tried to make terphenyl, too. - 24 Q I see. 25 Now, are there any things beyond terphenyls? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9136 101 1 A Yes; quadriphenyls. 2 Q Quadriphenyls? Those are four benzene rings 3 together? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Anything beyond that? 6 A Yes. Some small amounts. Tar. 7 Q Tar? 8 A We called it montar. 9 Q What was montar? 10 A Mixture of quadriphenyls probably higher -- 11 and higher aromatics. 12 Q Was that something that you were trying to 13 make in this process of converting benzene into 14 diphenyl? 15 A No. They came along with the process. 16 Q That's pretty common, isn't it, for chemical 17 processes to generate some waste materials that you're 18 not really trying to create but they just are part of 19 the process? 20 A True. 21 Q Now, you would then try to get rid of 22 everything but the diphenyl after you had made benzene 23 into diphenyl by purification. Is that correct? 24 A Well, no, we saved the other products as 25 well. NELL MC CALLUM 8t ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9137 102 1 Q Okay. Well, you were separating -- 2 A Separated them. 3 Q Separating them, then? 4 A Right. 5 Q And when you got the terphenyls and the 6 montars separated from the diphenyl, what you had left 7 was pure diphenyl? 8 A Almost pure, yes. 9 Q Would there be any benzene left in that 10 diphenyl? 11 A If there were, there would be very, very 12 small amounts parts per million. - 13 Q Would there also be some terphenyls and even 14 quadriphenyls left in that diphenyl after purification? 15 A Yeah, very small amounts possibly. 16 Q ' It's almost impossible in a large-scale 17 chemical process to entirely eliminate impurities, isn't 18 it? 19 A Yes, true. 20 Q So, after you had gotten the diphenyl as pure 21 as you practically could, what was the next step in the 22 production of PCBs? 23 A Chlorination. 24 Q And that would mean adding what, chlorine gas 25 to the diphenyl? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9138 103 A To the diphenyl, yeah, diphenyl. Q And how was that process done? A In continuous chlorination vessels series. Q Gas was just injected into the material? A Right. With stirring cooling. Q With what? A Stirring and cooling. Cooling. Q And would you have one batch that made a specific monochlorodiphenyl and another batch that made a specific bichlorodiphenyl and another one that made a specific trichlorobiphenyl? A No. You come out with a mixture. Q You can't make just monochlor -- A Well, mono you can -- you have a better chance of making mono than any other one. But you go to di and poly and you get mixtures of isomers and you get mixtures of various chlorination products. Various degrees of chlorination. Q Why is it that you have that problem of getting different mixtures? A Well, it's a statistical operation. And you make one and you can get two and three and up to four and five. Q When you have gone through that continuous chlorination process, you then come out, as I understand NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9139 AUfi 1 it, with a mixture of PCBs. Is that correct? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q Are there any impurities that are generated 4 in that process? 5 A There's HCL. 6 Q That's hydrogen chloride gas? 7 A Hydrogen chloride gas. 8 Q Anything else? 9 A Those are the principal -- that's the 10 principal impurity. 11 Q Any other impurities that are generated? 12 A We looked. I think that we're talking about - 13 impurities that contain oxygen. If we're looking for 14 that, we did not find any dioxins in our product 15 analytically. And these methods were developed late. 16 We looked for any dibenzofurans and found parts per 17 million late in 'Seventy -- late in the Seventies -- I 18 shouldn't say late in the Seventies, but late in the 19 Sixties, early in the Seventies. 20 _Q So you did have some dibenzofurans as 21 impurities in the manufacture of PCBs? 22 A Parts per million possibly. 23 Q Well, when you measured it, you found it. 24 Not possibly. You actually found it, didn't you? 25 A I think we did. It was not -- you would have NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009140 1UJ 1 to ask the analytical people what the exact parts per 2 million were, but very low. 3 Q Which analytical people did that work? 4 A Applied sciences -- in general, applied 5 sciences were working under Dr. Keller. 6 Q Dr. Keller? 7 A Dr. Keller. 8 Q And what groupwas he with? 9 A He was with the -- either the organic 10 division early or the industrial company as it got 11 reorganized. He also was in the research department, 12 had a separate organization. 13 Q After PCBs were produced with this measurable 14 dibenzofuran contamination, was it possible to purify 15 the PCBs in order to remove all the dibenzofurans? 16 A All -- it was not impossible -- it was not 17 possible to remove all the products in a practical 18 manner when you're down to parts per million in the 19 first place. 20 _Q When the analytical tests that you referred 21 to were conducted, were they conducted on current 22 production of PCBs or on PCBs that had been produced 23 many years earlier? 24 A You would have to ask Keller about what 25 samples were actually produced -- were actually NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9141 106 1 analyzed. 2 Q I see. 3 Do you know whether or not the analytical 4 method used made it possible to positively confirm the 5 absence of any dioxin in the PCBs? 6 A Within the detection limits available at that 7 time, I think he could -- he could document what the 8 level of detection was. 9 Q Explain what you mean by level of detection. 10 A Well, what's the sensitivity of the 11 analytical method in terms of reaching the level that 12 you're talking about in terms of accuracy. - 13 Q Can you explain that in laymen's terms, so to 14 speak? 15 A Well, the separation and detection depend on 16 isolation techniques, first. And isolation techniques 17 are -- are imprecise. You do the best you can by things 18 like absorption and extraction and manipulation. And 19 then you have instrumentation that is hopefully specific 20 to the compound you're talking about, but often is not. 21 So you're depending upon the isolation techniques first, 22 and then the sensitivity of the next analytical method, 23 and maybe you combine a third analytical method to try 24 to identify the particular compound you've got. So it's 25 a pretty complicated procedure to get a part per million NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9142 -L / 1 or a part per billion kind of analytical method. It 2 takes a lot of instrumentation, takes a lot of 3 technique. 4 Q What you are saying is, there is some margin 5 for error in all of that. Is that correct? 6 A That's the sense -- that margin of error is 7 included in the term "sensitivity." So that what the 8 analytical people try to do is say what is their margin 9 of error by stating it. 10 Q And what that means is that if they have a 11 margin of error at all there is some room for that 12 chemical to have been there and not been detected. 13 Correct? 14 A Well, if they don't detect it, they don't 15 detect it, that's -- you have to stop there. 16 Q ' But that does not rule out the possibility 17 that the chemical is there but below the margin of 18 error. Is that correct? 19 A In terms of sensitivity, yes. When you get 20 down to it, you could talk about levels of detection 21 times 10 to the minus 20th or something like that, and 22 we're not able to reach those levels at the present 23 time. So it's impossible to answer your question other 24 than in a theoretical way. 25 Q Well, my -- my real question is, that it is NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9143 108 1 possible, if you have any given level of detection. 2 whether it's parts per 10,000 or parts per 100,000 or 3 parts per million or parts per ten million or hundred 4 million or billion, whatever it may be, to say that 5 "We didn't find that and here's our level of detection" 6 simply says that: It's not there, as best we can tell. 7 at that level. It does not mean it's not there at a 8 lower level. Isn't that correct? 9 A It says only that it's not there within the 10 limit of our detectability. 11 Q That's right. 12 A You don't know whether it's there or not. - 13 Q Exactly. And so the measurements that were 14 made by Dr. Keller and his group do not rule out the 15 possibility of dibenzodioxin as a contaminant in PCBs 16 manufactured by Monsanto, do they? . 17 A They don't rule it in, either. 18 Q That's right. We just don't know. Isn't 19 that correct? 20 . MR. SHOEBOTHAM: I have to object to that 21 question. That's not what Dr. Richard has testified to. 22 Dr. Richard has clearly told you about the use of these 23 scientific methods to detectable levels, and you are 24 twisting around what he is saying and asking a 25 misleading question. And I object to it on that basis. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9144 109 1 MR. LACEY: 2 Q What I want is a simple layman's answer to 3 the question. When you say you can't rule it in or you 4 can't rule it out, what that means is you don't know. 5 Isn't that right? 6 A I repeat that we ran the tests, we repeated 7 the tests, determined a level of sensitivity, and that's 8 what will be reported. 9 Q When you say you can't rule it in and you 10 can't rule it out, don't you mean you don't know? 11 MR. SHOEBOTHAM: Objection. 12 A That's not true. - 13 MR. LACEY: 14 Q What do you mean, then, when you say you 15 can't rule out the presence of dioxin as a contaminant 16 in PCBs produced by Monsanto? 17 A I repeat that we analyzed for dioxin. And 18 when the sensitivity of the test and the level of the 19 test is reported, dioxin is not present. 20 .Q Okay. And why, then, does that not rule out 21 the presence of dioxin as a contaminant in the PCBs? 22 A Because it was not detected. 23 Q Okay. 24 Now, why is it that dibenzofurans are created 25 when one is attempting to convert diphenyl into PCBs? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9145 110 1 A Why is it that they're created? 2 Q Yes. 3 A Some traces of oxygen might be present in the 4 dehydration, dehydrogenation of the benzene. 5 Q And what that says is when I take hydrogen -- 6 dehydrogenation of the benzene simply says I'm going to 7 strip the hydrogen atoms away. Correct? 8 A Right. 9 Q And the reason I'm stripping it away is so 10 hopefully chlorine atoms will bond back where those 11 hydrogen atoms were. Correct? 12 A No. - 13 Q Why am I stripping the hydrogen away? 1.4 A So that carbon can bond. 15 Q Oh, I see. This is in the process of making 16 benzene into diphenyl? 17 A Right. 18 Q So you think that the oxygen and the creation 19 of the dibenzofuran may be created in the step of 20 converting of benzene to diphenyl rather than the step 21 of converting diphenyl into PCBs? 22 A It might and it might not. I don't know the 23 answer. But it's possible. 24 Q Okay. Is it also possible it may be created 25 in the step of converting diphenyl into PCBs? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9146 Ill 1 A That's also possible. 2 Q And that would also be because as we replace 3 hydrogens -- atoms with chlorine atoms, if there's 4 oxygen present, they may step in and be bonded instead? 5 A Right. 6 Q Now, the process by which -- strike that. 7 Dibenzofuran is a biphenyl in which two 8 hydrogen atoms have been replaced with a single oxygen. 9 Is that correct? 10 A In the biphenyl molecule. 11 Q Yes. 12 A Right. - 13 Q And dibenzodioxin is a diphenyl molecule in 14 which four hydrogen atoms have been replaced with two 15 oxygens. Isn't that correct? 16 A It's really not a biphenyl molecule. I've 17 made a mistake in the structure here. But there's no -- 18 there's no bond. When I drew this, there should be no 19 bond here. and this should be a six-member ring. 20 -Q With two oxygens -- 21 A It would be two oxygens on each phenyl ring. 22 So there would be four -- four hydrogens involved. 23 Q Why don't we get you to draw right below the 24 dibenzodioxin you've previously drawn what you now think 25 is a correct dibenzodioxin. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9147 11^ 1 A Yeah. I said earlier-that I was unfamiliar 2 with this chemistry. 3 Q Why don't we get you to draw it -- let me 4 give you a new black marker so we can kind of keep the 5 consistency of this thing. That one won't work. 6 A Maybe if we close it up for a bit. 7 Let's see if I can get it right. You 8 gentlemen can help me a little here. [Marking] I think 9 that's closer. 10 Q Okay. Let me get you to use the red pen, if 11 you can, to put in the carbons -- 12 A Is that correct in your -- - 13 Q You're the -- you're the chemist. Dr. 14 Richard. 15 A Not on dioxins. 16 Q Is there enough green left to kind of take 17 those oxygens and make them green so we can see them a 18 little bit better? 19 A [Marking] 20 _Q Maybe we can close all those things up here 21 and tried to keep them -- preserve them there for the 22 rest of the day. 23 Now, how did you determine that you had made 24 a mistake in drawing the -- 25 A I started thinking that this structure was NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9148 r` 113 1 crazy, and I talked to Jon, and we decided we should 2 correct it 3 Q By "Jon," you are talking about Mr. 4 Shoebotham? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Monsanto's lawyer? 7 A Monsanto's lawyer. 8 Q He helped you figure out that you had drawn 9 the dioxin wrong? 10 ,, A No. I -- I was thinking about it, and it 11 just looked cockeyed up here to me. 12 Q Okay. - 13 A Too many bonds, two big rings, impossible 14 situation. 15 Q Well, let me ask you, now that you have 16 redrawn the dioxin and we've got the one there on the 17 bottom that's drawn with Mr. Shoebotham's assistance -- 18 would that be a fair statement? 19 A I think it was my correction. 20 .Q After talking with Mr. Shoebotham? 21 A Well, after thinking about it and saying the 22 structure looks crazy. 23 Q Who said, "The structure looks crazy"? 24 A I did. I was drawing dibenzofurans and 25 thought I could just extrapolate from this to this, and NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9149 114 1 you really can't. 2 Q Well, let's -- let's go back and look at the 3 difference between dibenzofuran and dibenzodioxin. What 4 you have when you have the dibenzofuran, which has been 5 created with two hydrogens replaced with a single 6 oxygen -- is that correct? -- plus the remaining phenyl 7 bond. Correct? 8 A Yes, you have to split it or do something. 9 yeah. 10 Q And when you get to dibenzodioxin, an oxygen 11 atom steps in place of the straight carbon-to-carbon 12 bond and you then have the two rings -- the two benzene - 13 rings bonded together through two oxygen atoms. 14 Correct? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Now, under what circumstances or what 17 physical conditions do you create dibenzofurans from 18 benzene? 19 A I don't know that this has been done. 20 .Q Well, I thought you -- 21 A I'm not an expert on dioxin. But as far as I 22 know, it is not done this way. 23 Q I thought you just previously told me -- 24 MR. SHOEBOTHAM: I think there was a 25 miscommunication. The question went to dibenzofurans. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. HARTOLDMON0009150 1 not to dibenzodioxins. 2 THE WITNESS: Oh, excuse me. I thought you 3 were talking about dibenzodioxins. 4 MR. SHOEBOTHAM: Why don't you repeat the 5 question. 6 MR. LACEY: Let me ask again. 7 Q Under what conditions do you create 8 dibenzofuran from benzene? 9 A I don't know that you do create dibenzofuran 10 from benzene. It may be possible to do so in small 11 amounts. 12 Q Well, I thought you told me that part of the - 13 contamination of dibenzofuran that is found in 14 Monsanto's PCBs arose from the creation of dibenzofurans 15 while you were making diphenyl from benzene. 16 A I said that was possible. 17 Q I see. 18 A I said it waspossible. 19 Q I see. Well, is it fair to say -- 20 .A I don't know -- I don't know that for a fact. 21 Q Is it fair to say that the creation of 22 dibenzofuran that was a contaminant in Monsanto's PCBs 23 must come either during the stage of converting benzene 24 into diphenyl or the stage of chlorinating the diphenyl? 25 A Right. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9151 116 1 Q Okay. And is it also fair to say that in 2 each of those stages there must be some oxygen present 3 in order to create a dibenzofuran? 4 A Oxygen, yes; some form. 5 Q By definition? 6 A By definition. 7 Q And also is it fair to say that in each of 8 those stages there is some heating present? 9 A Some heating present? It wouldn't react at 10 room temperature? 11 Q Yes. 12 A Possible. - 13 Q Well -- 14 A More than likely, I guess. 15 Q I'm sorry. Isn't there heating present in 16 converting benzene into diphenyl in the way Monsanto did 17 it? 18 A Yes. We said we did a pyrolysis reaction. 19 Q Right. That involves heating, does it not? 20 .A Yes. 21 Q Okay. Isn't there also heating involved in 22 chlorinating the diphenyl? 23 A Yes. But at a much lower temperature. 24 Q But in both of those processes there is the 25 application of heat to either the benzene or to the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9152 117 1 diphenyl. Correct? 2 A Right. 3 Q And whether the dibenzofuran contamination in 4 Monsanto's PCBs is created in the step of going from 5 benzene to diphenyl or in the step from diphenyl to 6 PCBs, in either one of those steps there must be oxygen 7 and there is heat applied. Correct? 8 A Yes. In small amounts. 9 Q In fact, if there were more oxygen 10 contamination, it's likely that there would be a larger 11 amount of dibenzofuran created, isn't there? 12 A If that's the mechanism for the creation. - 13 Q Well, if either one of those is the 14 mechanism. 15 A If that's the mechanism, then your conclusion 16 is correct. 17 Q Well, are you telling me that you think that 18 Monsanto's initial feedstock of benzene contained 19 dibenzofurans in it? 20 .A I don't know the answer to that question. 21 Q Was there anybody at Monsanto who did check 22 for that to ensure that the feedstock was clean when you 23 got it? 24 A There may -- well, there are records. I 25 don't -- I'm not familiar with the records on benzene NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9153 118 1 purity. 2 Q Would there be records -- 3 A There would be records. 4 Q On each shipment of benzene that was 5 received? 6 A On -- well, it would be between the supplier 7 and Monsanto to either furnish specifications or 8 analytical work. And I'm not sure how that was set up. 9 They might have to guarantee specifications. 10 Q Well, let me -- let me just ask a question 11 hypothetically so I can understand how Monsanto worked. 12 And I guess to do that, from whom -- give me the name of- 13 a company that might have been a supplier of benzene to 14 Monsanto. . 15 A Exxon. 16 Q Okay. 17 A One supplier. 18 Q Okay. That's fine. If Monsanto says to 19 Exxon, "I want benzene that's 100 percent pure, you 20 guarantee that to me," and Exxon says, "I'll guarantee 21 you benzene that's 100 percent pure," if nobody ever 22 checks the benzene, nobody is ever going to know whether 23 or not they met the specification. Correct? 24 A Correct. 25 Q Okay. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9154 119 1 Now, my question is whether or not Monsanto 2 actually checked each quantity of benzene it received 3 from its suppliers to ensure that it in fact met the 4 purity specifications. 5 A Let's say they would check it. But whether 6 they checked every batch or they sampled the storage 7 tank I can't tell you. 8 Q Okay. So then you are telling me it is 9 possible that the dibenzofuran contamination could have 10 been present in the benzene as it came in? 11 A Possibly, but unlikely. 12 Q Okay. So you think it's more likely that 13 Monsanto created the dibenzofuran contamination itself? 14 A Yes. When we're talking about -- now, we're 15 talking about one or a few parts per million. So you 16 talk about a contamination. But we're talking at that 17 level. 18 Q Well, let me ask you a little bit about that 19 for a moment. You mentioned that processes -- for 20 example, this analytical process was developed 21 relatively late and was a very good process. Did the 22 ability of Monsanto to make PCBs get better over time 23 with technological improvements? 24 A There were not too many changes in that 25 process. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9155 120 1 Q I see. So basically the process was the same 2 as it had always been? 3 A Basically the process was the same. 4 Q So the technologies initiated in what, the 5 1930s? 6 A Well, no. We're talking about the time frame 7 from '63 through '70 when I was concerned with it. 8 That's the only thing I can really speak for. 9 Q That's what I'm trying to ask about. 10 A Between that time limit the process was 11 relatively unchanged or little changed. Some minor 12 improvements, but no major changes. - 13 Q Okay. 14 Now, how many samples -- how many different 15 batches of PCBs were sampled by Dr. Keller and his group 16 to attempt to determine the level of dibenzofuran and 17 possible dibenzodioxin contamination? 18 A You would have had to ask him. I don't know. 19 Q Was that a routine sampling that was done on 20 every batch? 21 A No, it was not a routine sample. 22 Q Okay. Now, let me then go back and ask my 23 question about that. If, for example, in the process of 24 making benzene diphenyl in a particular batch more 25 oxygen was introduced into that process than in another NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9156 121 1 batch, there would be a greater likelihood of 2 dibenzofuran contamination of that batch, would there 3 not? 4 A It's possible. 5 Q The greater theamount ofoxygen, the greater 6 the amount of possible dibenzofuran contamination. 7 Correct? 8 A Correct. 9 Q Similarly, if in theprocess ofconverting 10 diphenyl into PCBs in one particular batch, for whatever 11 reason, there was more oxygen present than in another 12 batch there would be the greater likelihood of more 13 dibenzofuran contamination. Correct? 14 A Correct. 15 Q One, and maybe the only, as far as you know, 16 limiting factor on the amount of dibenzofuran 17 contamination in the manufacture of PCB would be the 18 amount of oxygen present. Correct? 19 A Yes. 20 .Q And thatcould vary with theparticular 21 operation of the plant, could it not? 22 A It could within limits. But the chance of 23 contamination with oxygen is very limited. Pains were 24 taken to make sure that oxygen was not a contaminant. 25 Q And my pointis thatsometimes chemical NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9157 1ZZ 1 processes at a plant don't run like they're designed to. 2 Isn't that correct? 3 A Within limits. You would have possibly 4 unstable Aroclor or something like this that would be 5 out of specification. So what you try to do is set your 6 specifications and your detection limits to minimize 7 that. Now, the process -- actually, the electrical 8 properties of Aroclor were required to be extremely 9 good. And in fact what happened was that the process 10 was tested or the product was tested for electrical 11 properties, for dielectric constants and for power 12 factor and so forth, which almost automatically ensure 13 that the level of contaminants, especially oxygen14 containing contaminants, is always low. And so, 15 therefore, through the electrical testing, which was 16 done on every batch and every product that was shipped 17 out, I think automatically would minimize the kind of 18 scenario which you expressed earlier. And that was the 19 final testing of the product before it was shipped by 20 Monsanto. 21 Q What is the maximum concentration of 22 dibenzofuran contamination in PCBs that could exist and 23 still have the Aroclor meet the electrical testing 24 specifications? 25 A I don't know the precise answer to that. The NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9158 123 1 detection -- the electrical properties, though, are more 2 sensitive than most chemical methods, at least in this 3 time frame we're talking about. So that the electrical 4 testing is probably a more sensitive method for overall 5 oxygen containing than anything else. 6 Q Well, my question is slightly different. 7 Certainly there was a difference in electrical 8 properties between various batches of Aroclor, was there 9 not? 10 A Within limits. But the limits were very 11 tight. 12 Q Well, what I'm trying to get at is, if you 13 happen to have a batch of Aroclor that had absolutely no 14 contamination of any sort whatsoever, it would be 15 perfect and everybody would be happy with that. Right? 16 A Well, it wouldn't be perfect. They would be 17 modestly happy with it. 18 Q Well, no, but I mean I'm just going to 19 hypothesize we have a batch that has no contamination at 20 all. That would be perfect and everybody would be happy 21 with that, wouldn't they? 22 A No. They -- what they wanted was consistency 23 rather than perfection. 24 Q I see. Okay. So, actually, there wasn't 25 even a striving to reduce the contamination level to NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9159 X * M 1 zero, it was only to have a consistent level of 2 contamination? 3 A Well, we ran absorption -- we had absorption 4 and the electrical people themselves used absorption to 5 ensure a low level of contamination of oxygen-containing 6 impurities. 7 Q But my question -- 8 A And this -- 9 Q I'm sorry. Go ahead. 10 A And this almost ensures that there's a level 11 above which you are not going to operate. 12 Q That's not my question to you. If I 13 understand your previous answer correctly, it would not 14 be desirable to have PCfis with no contamination; rather, 15 it would be desirable to have a consistent level of 16 contamination. 17 A A consistent low level of contamination. 18 Q Okay. 19 A Consistent low level. 20 .Q So that -- 21 A Extremely low level. 22 Q So that in electrical testing we can almost 23 be assured that every batch of Aroclor would have had 24 some dibenzofuran contamination in it. Correct? 25 A Below a certain level. NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9160 125 Q But present in every batch. Correct? A I can't say whether it was present in every batch or not. Q Well, if you had a batch that didn't have that level of consistent contamination, would it be tossed out? MR. SHOEBOTHAM: Objection. The question has been asked and answered. He said you can't tell whether it would be in there or not in a particular batch. MR. LACEY: That's not my question. Q My question now is: If we had a batch of Aroclor that was inconsistent and the reason it was inconsistent was because it had no contamination, would it be rejected by your quality control people? A I don't think we ever saw a batch that didn't have some impurities. But we're talking about ten to the minus six and below. And we're talking about electrical contamination probably that's lower or as low or lower than that. .Q Ten to the minus six is one part per million? A Yeah. Q Okay. Now let me ask you about PCBs. Were all PCBs put to electrical applications? A Were they all put to electrical -- no. The NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9161 126 1 answer was, they were used in other areas as well. 2 Q Did all of the PCBs have to meet the 3 electrical specifications before they left Monsanto's 4 plant? 5 A They were all produced in the same plant. 6 probably went through all the same quality control 7 tests. We didn't isolate nonelectrical and electrical 8 at the manufacturing -- at the Aroclor plant itself. 9 Q You mean even Aroclor that didn't need to be 10 refined to the level to meet the standards you've 11 described for electrical purity was nevertheless refined 12 to that level anyway? - 13 A Yes, probably. 14 Q You say probably. Do you know? 15 A I don't know it was given special, special 16 treatment in some cases. Whether that was always 17 carried out I don't know. You would have to look at the 18 records. But the main process was always the same. 19 Q The general process -- 20 .A General process was always the same. 21 Q I see. 22 Are you familiar with the numbering of the 23 aroclors? I've seen numbers like 1242 and 1254 and 24 1260. 25 A Yes, in a general way, sure. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9162 127 1 Q What does the numbering indicate? 2 A The numbering early indicated the level of 3 chlorine. 1242 meant roughly 42 percent chlorine. 4 Q Okay. And 1254 meant -- 5 A Roughly 54 percent chlorine. 6 Q And 1260 meant -- 7 A Same thing. 8 Q Sixty percent chlorine? 9 A Right, 10 Q So the last two digits in that number 11 indicated the approximate percent of chlorine? 12 A Approximate percent by weight of chlorine. 13 Q And what did the first two digits represent? 14 A I can't answer that question. 1200 series 15 was just normal practice. 16 Q Was there an 1100 series? 17 A We made special batches of 1100, for example. 18 that might be a different process or different -- 19 slightly different step. But I can't remember what the 20 1100 series was. Very little was sold, if any. 21 Q What about 1300? 22 A I'm not familiar with any 1300 numbers except 23 the MCS numbers possibly. 24 Q What about 10? 25 A 1016 you are talking about? Aroclor 1016? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9163 x^o 1 Q The first two digits at 10. 2 A Well, the only -- only 10 number that I know 3 is Aroclor 1016, which was an electrical grade which was 4 taken from an MCS number 1016. 5 Q Okay. And what is an MCS number again? 6 A Monsanto chemical sample it stood for. 7 Q That's a test product? 8 A It's a test product. 9 Q And so if we have -- 10 A If it has an MCS number on it, it's a test 11 product. 12 Q If we have a product with an MCS number, that13 means it's not in regular production yet for commercial 14 sale? 15 A That's right. 16 Q And if it's in production for commercial sale 17 it's going to have Aroclor number? 18 A That would be normal. There would be a 19 transition from one to other, but that would be the 20 normal practice, right. 21 MR. LACEY: Let me ask the court reporter to 22 mark the sheet that we've been discussing as an exhibit 23 to your deposition, Dr. Richard. 24 [Exhibit 1 marked] 25 [Noon recess] NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9164 129 1 VIDEO OPERATOR: We're now back on the 2 record. 3 MR. LACEY: Let's take care of a couple of 4 matters of housekeeping before we get started back on 5 the deposition. I understand that Dr. Richard will 6 review his deposition and sign it. And we have the same 7 agreement we've had before with regard to using a copy 8 in the event we don't have the changes back a week 9 before trial? 10 MR. SHOEBOTHAM: Correct. That's agreeable. 11 MR. LACEY: And we've agreed that we'll use 12 the documents produced by Monsanto as exhibits and just 13 refer to them by the last digits other than zero for 14 purposes of identification for the depositions? 15 MR. SHOEBOTHAM: That will be fine. 16 MR. LACEY: Without attaching copies of the 17 documents to the deposition transcript? 18 MR. SHOEBOTHAM: That is agreeable. 19 MR. LACEY: The next matter of housekeeping 20 is, I want to offer what has been marked as Richard 21 Deposition Exhibit No. 1. 22 Q I would like you to confirm. Dr. Richard, 23 that what is marked now by the reporter as Richard 24 Deposition Exhibit No. 1 are the drawings that you have 25 previously made with regard to various chemicals that we NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9165 1 discussed, and names for chemical compounds. 2 A I do. 3 Q Okay. 4 Let me ask you, Dr. Richard, if you are aware 5 of the circumstances under which -- I'm not talking 6 about now in the manufacturing process, but following 7 the manufacturing process, the circumstances under which 8 PCBs might be transformed into furans. 9 A The only thing I've seen is in the literature 10 in terms of photochemistry. 11 Q And what have you seen? 12 A Well, people were trying to make dibenzofuran- 13 by radiation of samples in the laboratory. 14 Q Do you mean exposing them to -- 15 A UV light. 16 Q -- UV light? 17 A Yeah. 18 Q Do you know anything other than that? 19 A That's about it. 20 Q Do you know anything about the circumstances 21 under which -- again, I'm not talking about the 22 manufacturing process, but when you have PCBs they might 23 be transformed into dibenzodioxins? 24 A It's very unlikely, I think. I'm not an 25 expert in dioxin chemistry. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9166 131 1 Q Okay. 2 In connection with your work or your 3 section's work from time to time with the various plants 4 that produce PCBs, did you ever have occasion to visit 5 either the Krummrich plant or the plant in Anniston, 6 Alabama? 7 A I was there on occasion. 8 Q Did you visit the portions of those plants 9 where PCBs were manufactured? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Can you describe those sections of the plants 12 for me? - 13 A Not really. Tanks and vessels and control 14 rooms. That's about it. I mean typical chemical 15 equipment. 16 Q Okay. 17 A You would have to have a detailed flow sheet. 18 I don't have that in my head. 19 Q Okay. Was there anything about the way in 20 which the workers in those sections of those plants 21 where PCBs were produced that were any different than 22 the workers in other sections of those same plants or 23 other Monsanto plants? 24 A You would have to ask manufacturing a 25 question like that. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9167 1 Q You didn't observe anything different? 2 A I'm not -- not that knowledgeable in detail 3 of all the procedures and employment practices in the 4 two plants. 5 Q What about the -- was it J. F. Quenby plant? 6 A . Queeny? 7 Q Queeny. 8 A Queeny plant. 9 Q Did you ever visit that facility? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Did you visit the section where PCBs were 12 blended? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Did you noticeanything different about the 15 work there versus any other sections of the plant? 16 A ' Well, the blending operation is much simpler. 17 There were storage tanks and there were blend tanks and 18 then lines to the various tank cars and so forth; some 19 drumming lines. It was more of a packaging, drumming, 20 mixing thing; no chemical reactions went on. 21 Q Did that take place at ordinary temperatures? 22 A Or slightly elevated possibly. But 23 ordinarily you just mix at room temperature. 24 Q What were -- 25 A They were fluids. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9168 1JJ 1 Q Okay. Is there something like a big mixer 2 that whips it up? 3 A It would be a blend -- blend tank. Blend 4 tanks. 5 Q Does it have something inside that 6 mechanically aggitates it? 7 A Normally, right. 8 Q In doing any research -- and I'm talking 9 about laboratory research now -- did your group actually 10 handle PCBs? 11 A Yes. We had them in the laboratory. 12 Q What sort of things would you do with PCBs in13 the laboratory? 14 A We would possibly do some special testing, 15 maybe we would build small capacitors, about like so 16 big, impregnate them. We would try to measure the 17 electrical properties on those capacitors, artificially 18 age them. But we did -- this was all small-scale stuff 19 compared to anything that Westinghouse or GE or the 20 electrical people would do. We would make a few, age 21 and measure the electrical properties. We also had 22 apparatus to measure dielectric strength, power factor, 23 dielectric constant. That's about it. 24 Q Did your -- I'm sorry. 25 A That's the normal -- would be the normal NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9169 XJ*1 1 thing. Analytical people, of course, would use it to 2 develop the analytical methods. 3 Q I'm not sure I understand your answer there. 4 A The analytical people -- I was talking about 5 the electrical laboratory. The analytical people would 6 use Aroclor in terms of, you know, making the 7 separations and proving what the analytical results 8 were, using small quantities. 9 Q Okay. 10 A The biodegradation people, which was part of 11 applied science, would be doing biological sludge -- 12 activated sludge experiments. We analyzed tissues from 13 test animals. We also blended on laboratory scale. And 14 this would be as much as four or five gallons of certain 15 hydraulic fluids. 16 Q Did all of these -- 17 A Well, one other thing, I guess. We would 18 occasionally test the thermal stability and heat 19 transfer systems in the presence of metals for 20 decomposition and degradation. 21 Q Were all these functions -- and by that I 22 mean the electrical test, the analytical test, the 23 thermal test, the tissue test, the biodegradation test, 24 the blending, were all those things done by people who 25 reported through you or to you? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009170 1 A The applied science group did not report to 2 me. This would be the analytical and the analytical 3 work on tissues. 4 Q Okay. So the two things that didn't report 5 to you were what you referred to as analytical and then 6 the analysis -- 7 A Analysis of tissue materials. 8 Q -- of tissue? 9 A Yeah. 10 Q The biodegradation, the blending -- 11 A Okay. Biodegradation was in that analytical 12 section. applied science section, too. - 13 Q Who did that section report to? 14 A This was Dr. Keller. Then he reported, I 15 think, to the director of research, who was Roos during 16 this time . Bill Roos. Anagnostopolis, I guess, too, at 17 one time. 18 Q What was Dr. Roos's position? 19 A He was the research director of MIC, Monsanto 20 Industrial Company, during part of this period. 21 Q Was he a person who you reported to as well? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Was he your immediate superior at that time? 24 A In terms of the research department, yes. 25 Q Okay. And then there were other people who NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9171 136 1 reported to him in a different type of research 2 capacity, which would include -- 3 A Well, there were other groups, yes, that 4 would report to him. 5 Q Dr. Keller's section was a parallel section 6 to yours? 7 A It would supply analytical services to the 8 entire MIC division at that time. 9 Q Okay. So your group, then, was involved in 10 thermal testing, electrical testing and blending? 11 A And hydraulic testing, right. 12 Q Okay. 13 What sort of precautions were taken around 14 your laboratory dealing with laboratory samples of PCBs? 15 A Depend on the application. In electrical, 16 analytical, I think the main precautions were to make 17 sure that samples were not contaminated. During the 18 entire rest of the operation I think it was just good 19 laboratory practice: Don't spill anything, use hoods if 20 you need to. But I don't think there were any special 21 rules or precautions in the Aroclor handling. 22 Q Did you have chemicals for which you had 23 special precautions? 24 A Later there were things that were put under 25 special conditions, like the chloroethers, I think. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9172 137 1 something like that. Things that were considered highly 2 toxic. There were special rooms, for example, created. 3 Q But PCBs were not handled that way? 4 A No. 5 Q Did you ever have occasion to give caution to 6 anybody who worked for you about their handling of PCBs? 7 A Well, the only cautions we developed, I 8 think, were if you wanted to measure electricals, you 9 better keep it in brown bottles, make sure that there 10 was no contamination, storage was special. Wanted to 11 make sure we had clean laboratories. If there was a 12 spill, make sure you clean it up. I think just safe, - 13 ordinary good lab practice. 14 Q What things come under the heading of good 15 lab practice? Would you tell me what good lab practice 16 is? ' 17 A Well, I'll try to. If there were vapors, 18 heat tests and so forth, we tried to use hoods. 19 Q When you say a hood, what do you mean? 20 A Well, a ventilated hood would be in the 21 laboratory. If we were doing oxidative testing or 22 something like that, those were all done in hoods. 23 Biodegradation I think was in general -- I better be 24 careful. I'm not sure of this. That's about it. Keep 25 engineering tests -- keep things tight. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9173 138 1 Q Ver.y general, I take it. 2 A Yeah. Make sure it's not leaking. We would 3 do that anyway. 4 Q Let me see if I can get you to give me, as 5 best you can recall, from 1963 until 1970 the other 6 people who were at your level in the organizational 7 chart, and I don't mean necessarily in line with you, 8 but the other people who were in the organization chart 9 that dealt with PCBs. 10 A The other people in an organization chart 11 about at my level? Is that the question? 12 Q Yes. Maybe the thing to do, if we could turn 13 that page there and find one of these markers that 14 works, if you could just draw me an organizational chart 15 as you recall it from roughly 1963 up to 1970 as it 16 related to PCBs. 17 A I think I can verbalize what I know. In the 18 '63 period aroclors were the main province and 19 responsibility of the fluids group and of the 20 plasticizer group. That one application. So the 21 organization would be Richard and Martin Farrar was in 22 charge of the plasticizer group, the research 23 department. Early I reported and Martin reported to 24 Anagnostopolis as research director, and I think later 25 than that we both reported to Bill Roos, at least as one NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9174 1 of our -- as the research director. Okay. Now, there 2 would normally be a manufacturing manager during those 3 times. 4 Q Responsible for more than one plant? 5 A Responsible to the business group that 6 controlled fluids or plasticizers. I have to be a 7 little careful about timing here. But that was one type 8 of organization. 9 There would also be a plant manufacturing 10 manager or possibly director -- usually a manager, plant 11 manager -- who would be responsible for all the products 12 in his plant. There would be a marketing director and a13 marketing manager. 14 Q One report to the other or -- 15 A The manager would report to the director. 16 And the marketing manager would have responsibility for 17 usually a large application area such as dielectrics or 18 hydraulics or hydraulics and heat transfer. 19 Q And the director would be over all of those? 20 A Yes. The marketing director of the fluids 21 group would have responsibility over all those. The 22 same thing would be true for the plasticizers. 23 There would be patent counsel who would be 24 responsible for the fluids group, or be assigned to it, 25 so that you knew who to contact in the patent I NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9175 1 department 2 The medical department. In the case of 3 polychlorinated biphenyls, I think Mr. Wheeler was our 4 main contact, although we met with Dr. Kelly on 5 occasions. 6 Q Who? 7 A Dr. Kelly. Emmett Kelly. 8 Q Who? 9 A Dr. Emmett Kelly. 10 Q Was he higher than Mr. Wheeler? 11 A Yes. He was Mr. Wheeler's boss. 12 Q So your direct contact was Mr. Wheeler, - 13 who -- 14 A Normally, yes, who then would report to 15 Kelly. 16 Q What was Mr. Wheeler's first name, if you 17 recall? 18 A Elmer. 19 Q Okay. 20 And what was Mr. Kelly's title? 21 A I don't know specifically, but something like 22 medical director of Monsanto or -- 23 Q So he -- 24 A -- close to that. 25 Q -- would be the head of that department. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9176 1 then? 2 A He was the head of the medical department. 3 He would normally have a boss above him who was less 4 than the president. 5 Q Okay. Do you have any idea what area his 6 boss would be in? 7 A Emmett retired in '76. So I don't know 8 whether it was -- possibly Mr. Throdahl. 9 Q I guess I was asking more what area. I mean 10 the medical department doesn't fit in any particular 11 chemical -- 12 A Well, it was a corporate staff and would 13 eventually report to the president. 14 Q Okay. 15 A But I think he always had somebody in between 16 him and the president. 17 Q And that's what I'm trying to get to. What 18 would that person be responsible for besides the medical 19 department? Would he have other staff -- 20 A He would have usually some other duties. 21 Q Okay. 22 A They kept shifting that. You wouldhave to 23 look at the chart by year. 24 Q Does that give us the organizational layout 25 as best you can recall? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9177 1 A Yeah, up through the time we were talking 2 about, I think, from '63 to early -- the organization 3 shifted a little bit, but not -- not drastically. 4 Q Now, if I were going to get people in the 5 same level of responsibility, would I be correct that 6 the research director would be on the same level of 7 responsibility as the marketing director? Are they 8 roughly coequals in terms of their place in the 9 organization? 10 A Yeah. If you have a director and a director, 11 I think they tried to make it somewhat the same level. 12 Whether that was in fact, it's not really pertinent. 13 There's one slight difference and that is that the 14 philosophy changed part way through that. From early it 15 was research department under Anagnostopolis, who was an 16 entity under itself. And later on business groups 17 became one of the main focal points for the research 18 managers. In other words, I had, really, two bosses, I 19 had the business director of the fluids group and I had 20 the research director. So -- 21 Q You had two -- 22 A -- there was a little bit of philosophy, yes. 23 Q Is the business director the same thing as 24 the marketing director? 25 A No. The marketing director would report to NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9178 143 1 the business director. 2 Q Okay. So we've got the business director. 3 Now, if we look at a marketing manager, would 4 he be equivalent -- roughly equivalent to you as a -- in 5 your managerial position? 6 A Yeah, I'm sure in the salary range probably. 7 He might have less scope in terms of narrower scope but 8 then have a particular product line, whereas in the 9 research department you may have five or six product 10 lines. 11 Q What about the position of a person like Mr. 12 Wheeler in the medical department? How does he fit into13 the structure in terms of equals and superiors? 14 A He would be dealing largely with me and/or 15 possibly a group leader in a special situation. 16 Q So he's maybe a little bit below the level of 17 manager in this -- 18 A We didn't go on that close a protocol. If he 19 was needed in a particular area, he would work with the 20 most knowledgeable people and persons. 21 Q Okay. 22 Do you recall who the business director was 23 during this period? 24 A I gave you, I think, four names that were 25 either directly responsible or partly responsible for NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9179 144 1 the business in a business sense. That was Wobus -- 2 Q Okay. 3 A And Cresce. They were kind of dotted-line 4 responsibilities, had a little bit less authority; and 5 then Anagnostopolis and Bergen had more responsibility. 6 So they came later. 7 Q Now, am I to understand that Anagnostopolis 8 and Bergen would be in the category of business 9 directors? 10 A Yes, they were, for the fluids group. 11 Q Okay. And -- , 12 A Anagnostopolis, you see, went from research - 13 director to business director. 14 Q Okay. 15 A Fluids group. 16 Q And Wobus and Cresce had a similar title but 17 before there was quite as much authority in that job? 18 A There was a little less authority that they 19 had, but they were still kind of drawing overall 20 business together. 21 Q Who was the marketing director of fluids 22 during that time? 23 A There were different ones. Tom Gossage was 24 one. I think George Buchanan was early. He left the 25 company. I've forgotten who took his place. Maybe NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009180 145 1 Gossage took his place. There might be one other in 2 there. 3 Q How did the plant managers and the 4 manufacturing managers fit into this scheme? 5 A Well, the manager of manufacturing for fluids 6 reported to the business director and tried to keep 7 track of all the fluids business. And, of course, then 8 the plant manager, his overall job was to manufacture 9 and see that the plant was running. So these two would 10 coordinate operations. Manufacturing operations. 11 Q Was the manufacturing manager responsible for 12 distribution and that sort of thing? 13 A I think only indirectly. I think the plants 14 had more distribution authority and probably took more 15 orders from marketing. 16 Q And with regard to specific fluids, would 17 that come from the marketing manager of that particular 18 fluid? 19 A Well, the orders would come in to marketing 20 and then these would be transferred to manufacturing. 21 And I don't know all the steps. And then first the 22 distribution would be the plant's responsibility and 23 then back to marketing if anything was going wrong. Any 24 customer complaints would come back to marketing and/or 25 manufacturing in some cases. / NELL MCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9181 146 1 Q Who were the marketing managers during this 2 period of time as related to particular products? 3 A Well, Paul Denivious (phonetically) was 4 manager of marketing for dielectrics for many years 5 during -- earlier and during this period we're talking 6 about. 7 Q Okay. 8 A Dick Davis had hydraulics and some Thermonol 9 responsibility, I think, heat transfer responsibility. 10 There were others in there. Stan, I can't remember his 11 last name, had heat transfer for a while. I don't know 12 who had the aviation. Let's see. Frank Langenfeld had 13 the aviation hydraulics for many years. And he was 14 followed, I think, by Cumming Peyton. Cumming became 15 Langenfeld's boss or was his boss. 16 Q That -- 17 A There may be a few others, but if you get 18 that far you've got them. 19 Q Who were the manufacturing managers who 20 reported to the business directors of the business 21 group? 22 A Jim Savage, I think, was the main one during 23 this product, but there -- during this time interval. 24 but there are one or two others that -- one gentleman 25 has died. I've forgotten his name. He was -- during NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9182 147 1 the -- when Anagnostopolis was director, this man was 2 manufacturing rep. I've forgotten his name. 3 Q What about the plant managers during this 4 period of time? 5 A You would have to -- we would have to go back 6 to the organization charts. There were a number. 7 Q And the patent counsel? 8 A Jack Mauer during a lot of this. Again, 9 there are changes here that would have to be documented. 10 Q Now let's go from 1970 on until you left this 11 area. Can you give me some idea of the structure and 12 then the people who occupied the positions? 13 A It's about the same. I think that from-- I 14 think I've tried to cover from '63 through '12, 3, 15 somewhere along in there. And I had responsibility for 16 paper what, '74, '75, somewhere in there, in addition to 17 the fluids group. 18 Q Did the fluids group remain relatively 19 constant during that period? 20 _A The research department was -- people working 21 in the fluids group was fairly constant during that 22 time. 23 Q What about the rest of -- 24 A We added people, but I don't think very many 25 left the group. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9183 148 Q What about the rest of these positions, positions like marketing director, the marketing managers -- A We would have to go back and document that information year by year and position by position. Q Do you think there's some way to document that within the company? A I would think there would be. Q I have heard the name Pappageorge, I think it is. I didn't hear you mention him. Does he fit into this thing anywhere? A Yes. Pappageorge was plant manager at Anniston in the late Sixties. In 1970 or thereabouts Pappageorge joined the fluids group and became -- I don't know his exact title, but the environmental manager or director, maybe director, to coordinate environmental issues pertaining to the aroclors and to, I think, probably fluids in general. But mainly aroclors. -Q Was that a new position or did he succeed somebody? A It was a new position. Q Do you know why that position was created? A Yes. A concern that polychlorinated biphenyls were being detected in the environment and NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9184 149 1 shouldn't be. And to make sure that Monsanto acted 2 responsibly. 3 Q Did you have any involvement at all in those 4 sorts of issues? _5 A I had involvement in those issues before -- 6 particularly before Mr. Pappageorge came. And partial 7 involvement after he came. 8 Q Tell me about what your involvement in those 9 issues was before Pappageorge took on his role as 10 director or manager of environmental matters. 11 A Okay. Well, the polychlorinated biphenyl 12 issue I think first came to my attention in somewhere 13 around late '66, maybe '67, through reports from David 14 Wood, who was a marketing man in England. 15 Q Was he marketing any particular thing in 16 England? 17 A I think he had some responsibilities in the 18 dielectric area. Whether he had others -- he may have 19 had other responsibilities as well. Maybe fluids in 20 general. 21 Q Okay. 22 A And he was hearing and reading reports from 23 Sweden that Widmark and Jensen had thought they had 24 identified polychlorinated biphenyl in environmental DDT 25 samples. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9185 150 1 Q Did you or someone else with Monsanto 2 undertake to determine whether or not in fact their work 3 did document PCBs in the environment? 4 A Yes, we did. 5 Q And what did you determine? 6 A Well, I think the first thing we did was 7 we -- one of the first things we did was to go to 8 Europe. And Keller, Wheeler and I went to Stockholm -- 9 Q Okay. So you and Mr. or Dr. Keller -- 10 A Yes. And Mr. Wheeler. 11 Q -- and Dr. Wheeler -- 12 A No. Mr. Wheeler, it is. 13 Q Mr. Wheeler? 14 A Mr. Wheeler. 15 Q Dr. -- 16 A ' Went to Stockholm and visited Widmark and 17 tried to talk to Jensen. We couldn't either find Jensen 18 or Jensen wouldn't talk to us. 19 Q What was the -- 20 A And the other things we did were to begin to 21 monitor the literature. And Wheeler and Keller visited 22 a number of laboratories in the U. S. and around -- 23 well, in England, Scotland that were monitoring 24 environmental chlorinated hydrocarbons. And the next 25 thing that we did was we said we should begin to check NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9186 151 1 out the reports and determine whether the reports were 2 valid and at what levels and so forth. So Keller began 3 to gather analytical equipment and an analytical team 4 that could begin to positively identify Aroclor along 5 with the DDT. 6 Q Let me stop you right there for just a 7 second. Dr. Keller had certain responsibilities for 8 technical areas that you did not and vice versa with 9 regard to functional fluids. Correct? 10 A Yes. Keller was the manager of applied 11 science -- 12 Q Right. 13 A -- who did not all the analytical work, but 14 analytical work and development that was -- not all that 15 was done in organic, but a great deal of what was done 16 in the organic division other than myself. 17 Q Between the two of you, you basically 18 comprised the managers for almost all the technical work 19 done with regard to dielectrics and other functional 20 fluids containing PCBs. Is that correct? 21 A We covered the vast majority other than the 22 plasticizer applications which I mentioned earlier. 23 Q Who was responsible for the plasticizer 24 technical matters at this time? 25 A Early it was Farrar. Just when it was NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9187 152 1 transferred I'm not quite sure. Martin Farrar, though, 2 had the initial responsibility. 3 Q And you're not sure whether he still did at 4 the time you and Dr. Keller went to Sweden? 5 A I think we were before that. I think it was 6 transferred after that. 7 Q Okay. 8 Now, what was Mr. Wheeler's particular 9 specialty? 10 A Industrial hygiene. 11 Q And what is industrial hygiene? 12 A I think he better define it. There are 13 definitions, but I don't have them in front of me. 14 Q Why did you understand he went on this trip 15 with you and Dr. Keller? 16 A Well, he was representingboth themedical 17 department and industrial hygiene was the closest to the 18 discipline that we needed for environmental at that 19 time. 20 Q I'm not sure I really understand your answer. 21 A Well, all -- medical always did all our 22 toxicity testing, all our issuances of what the toxicity 23 or safety handling and so forth. So it was natural 24 function that we should include a representative of that 25 department in trying to find out what the issues were. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9188 153 1 Q Did you determine from your visit to Sweden 2 that there were health issues involved? 3 A No. We couldn't tell health issue or not. I 4 think Widmark was an analytical chemist basically. 5 Q You mentioned that when you got back you 6 began to monitor the literature. Do you know whether or 7 not anybody with Monsanto ever monitored literature 8 about products Monsanto produced prior to that time? 9 A The -- sure. The answer is yes. Marketing 10 would monitor, medical would monitor, research would 11 monitor. And certainly the three were responsible for 12 trying to keep track of what was happening around the 13 world. 14 Q So it was the intention, then, of the company 15 that somebody in the company monitor technical 16 literature that would relate to the chemicals it was 17 producing? 18 A That's right. And the library had -- usually 19 had a profile on research chemists, managers, group 20 leaders, on what they should be monitoring in terms of 21 what publications they should be reading. And you 22 wouldn't get the whole publication, but you would get 23 the title page, index pages of these journals, magazines 24 and so forth. 25 Q So that, for example, to the extent you had a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9189 154 responsibility to monitor certain aspects of the literature, you would receive the title page from the appropriate journals each month and review it and decide which articles you wanted to have a copy of? A Yes, you tried to. You couldn't do a perfect job. Q Certainly. A It was easy at first, but it eventually became a large matter. And, of course, that's when I think Pappageorge really took over part of the responsibilities. Q But prior to that you and somebody in the medical department and somebody in the marketing department each would have your areas of responsibility? A We would try to monitor what was happening to our products in the environment. We were also in contact with government agencies. We were in contact with places like Woods Hall, Scripps Institute, Wisconsin Alumni Research Foundation. And we would ferret out people who were doing analytical and environmental work in the areas of small -- detecting small concentrations. Q Now, had that been a responsibility you had had ever since you became a manager in 1963? A Yes. It was an implied responsibility to NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009190 bb 1 know as much about the product of the competition, our 2 customers, as we could. I don't think it had been an 3 issue. We didn't -- we really didn't think that Aroclor 4 was an environmental hazard. At least, I was certain 5 that we were not aware of even a potential problem until 6 the Jensen situation. 7 Q Let me phrase my question slightly more 8 broadly. There have been publications that relate to 9 different aspects of what seems to be matters the 10 company covers for long periods of time. For instance, 11 I take it the medical department has been present at 12 Monsanto for a long period of time. 13 A Right. 14 Q And from what you tell me apparently has had 15 some level of responsibility with regard to certain 16 aspects of things that relate to PCBs, like toxicity and 17 the like. . 18 A They did work early. 19 Q And was that -- 20 A Before my time. 21 Q Yes. Was that department responsible for 22 monitoring things that would relate to their work before 23 the environmental issue came to the fore in 1966? 24 A Sure. They would tryto keep track of 25 hygiene issues or plant safety issues, sure. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9191 156 1 Q Now, you mentioned earlier, I just want to 2 make sure I understand correctly, you didn't just 3 monitor the American literature, you also monitored 4 foreign literature as well? 5 A We tried to. We had representatives in 6 Japan, John Durland, who was available for information 7 from there. Sweden, England. Tried to monitor the 8 continent -- what was coming out of Holland. 9 Q So just about every place that you had a 10 representative on behalf of Monsanto you would also be 11 monitoring the technical literature in that locale? 12 A Well, if -- if we were sensitized to it. We 13 didn't read everything. It's impossible. But people 14 became sensitized to it and I think we began to do a 15 pretty decent job of coverage. 16 Q What did you personally do with the things 17 that you monitored? 18 A There was a committee, an informal committee, 19 of Keller, Wheeler and myself. We tried to meet 20 periodically, exchange information and plot a course of 21 action that would make Monsanto responsible and 22 responsive to the environmental or potential 23 environmental problems. 24 Q Was this committee ever recognized in any 25 formal way or just three guys trying to work on a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9192 157 1 problem? 2 A No, I think we -- I think we had some sort of 3 recognition. How formal it was I don't know. But 4 certainly we reported the information to the business 5 manager, the business director. I think we also were in 6 contact with marketing people. As part of the 7 monitoring of outside -- Scripps and institutes, we 8 would talk to those people. We invited those people in 9 to tell us what they knew. 10 VIDEO OPERATOR: Excuse me. I need to go off 11 the record for a minute. 12 [Recess] 13 VIDEO OPERATOR: We're now back on the 14 record. 15 MR. LACEY: 16 Q What sort of people did you have come in and 17 advise you about their knowledge? 18 A We had people who were monitoring the 19 environments of oceans, of air. We didn't know much 20 about fish toxicity. I think medical asked a lot of 21 questions about testing procedures in fish. 22 We had Mr. Riseborough come in and tell us 23 what he had found. Dr. Riseborough probably. 24 We had WARF come in and tell us what they 25 were doing in the Great Lakes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9193 158 1 Keller visited an environmental lab in 2 Scotland doing monitoring work on chlorinated residues. 3 fish and wildlife. 4 We consulted with people at University of 5 Illinois in the environmental area, Metcalf. 6 We consulted with Mailer at Marquette, 7 biological enzymes, which we really couldn't do much 8 with. Talked with him. , 9 I think these were some of the people that 10 either Elmer talked with or I talked with, or Keller. 11 Some combination. 12 Q When you say talked with, did you have a - 13 formal presentation made or was it just a phone call in 14 some cases -- 15 A No, no. These would be face-to-face 16 contacts. 17 Q Okay. 18 What percentage of the people who were 19 publishing in the field with regard to PCBs after 1970 20 did people at Monsanto contact directly? 21 A After 1970? 22 Q Uh-huh. 23 A I can't give you the time. I think we were 24 doing this more in '68, '69. But Pappageorge would 25 probably know a better record after '70, after he took NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9194 159 1 over. 2 Q After Pappageorge got involved, did your 3 involvement in that type of concern about environmental 4 matters and health effects go away and that became his 5 area and not yours anymore, or did you stay interested 6 in that area? 7 A My concern did not drop, but the amount of 8 detailed work I did in that area slackened. 9 Q Were you involved in the decisions by 10 Monsanto to limit the uses for which PCBs would be sold? 11 A I had some input to that. But the policy was 12 really set down by John Mason and then carried up and 13 down from there. He was Bergen's boss at the time, 14 around 1970. 15 Q And if I understand correctly, at that point 16 we're talking about somebody who is over the business 17 director. 18 A Yeah. He's like an assistant general manager 19 or whatever next to the head of the whatever it was, the 20 MIC company at that time or organic division, I'm not 21 sure which at that moment. 22 Q But he was at the level of -- 23 A One above the business director. 24 Q So he would be responsible for more areas 25 than -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9195 160 1 A And had more say in the policy formulation. 2 Q And it's your understanding that it was Mr. 3 Mason who was the person who we might call the architect 4 of that approach? 5 A At least the gatherer and presenter and 6 consolidation of thoughts of what recommendations should 7 be made, should be done. 8 Q Do you know who made the initial 9 recommendation for that? 10 A Well, I was involved in earlier -- some 11 earlier recommendations. 12 Q Tell me about that. - 13 A But I didn't certainly have a final say in 14 anything. 15 Q Tell me about the early recommendations. 16 A Well, the early recommendations, after we 17 decided that chlorinated biphenyls were really out there 18 as part of the DDT residues or part of the chlorinated 19 burden in the environment, was to cut back on production 20 and try to confine the applications so that they would 21 not get out in the environment. These were industrial 22 products. They were never intended to be out in the 23 environment. It wasn't like spraying orchards with DDT 24 and things like that. So we wanted to confine it. 25 We also began to make substitute products NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9196 161 1 which were more biodegradable. 2 In the case of Aroclor, we introduced 1016 to 3 the dielectric capacitor market. 4 In the case of Pydraul fluids, we formulated 5 away from those containing chlorinated biphenyls. 6 In the case of heat transfer, we stopped the 7 applications first in food and then finally the total 8 use of fire resistant hyd -- fire resistant heat 9 transfer fluids. 10 We promoted incineration, return of 11 chlorinated biphenyls. 12 We promoted the idea of reclaim fluids so 13 they would not be disposed of in a wrong manner. 14 We did all sorts of things with the 15 distribution system. Pappageorge can tell you more 16 about that. 17 We introduced more toxicity testing, 18 long-term toxicity testing. 19 Q I guess my question was specifically what you 20 did. 21 A Well, I was involved in all of this. 22 Q These were all your recommendations? 23 A Well, I was involved in most of them. 24 Q Okay. 25 A I did not make any one decision. But they NELL MC CALLUM 8t ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9197 162 1 would be brought up by the informal committee, discussed 2 and decide whether they're practical or not. Then it 3 would -- it was -- really, it was -- that's what Mason 4 did, he would take the recommendations of the business _5 director and so forth and pull this all together. 6 Q What I'm trying to find out about is what 7 specific things you personally recommended in response 8 to the problem, if anything. 9 A Well, Wheeler and I and Keller went to 10 Industrial Biotest. I think it was medical's call that 11 we should do more long-term testing. The research 12 department agreed that we would do all the analytical 13 testing on animal tissues and so forth, specimens which 14 were sent back. The main reason was that we had the 15 analytical capability and we wanted it under our thumb, 16 so to speak, under our authority. 17 I made recommendations asking, really, 18 questions in the area of hydraulics. 19 I didn't play much of a job in -- much of a 20 part in the Thermonol situation. That was somebody 21 else, maybe marketing, to cease the FDA. 22 I was involved in providing the FDA with 23 samples, analytical samples. 24 It was my responsibility after the 25 plasticizer group -- Monsanto had decided not to sell NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9198 163 1 Aroclor to carbonless carbon paper because we couldn't 2 control or they couldn't control the distribution of it. 3 So myself and my group leaders substituted -- got the 4 substituted product, we synthesized it, got it accepted. 5 built a plant. It took us about -- it's the shortest 6 job I've ever had in terms of from time of 7 responsibility to plant. I think we did it in less than 8 a year. 9 I was responsible all for the reformulations 10 away from Aroclor and hydraulic. 11 I think I was the first to recommend 12 incineration, although I didn't approve the final - 13 expenditures. That was up the line. 14 Q Let me go back and go through the specific 15 things you've indicated. With regard to the Industrial 16 Biotest, let me first understand this analytical testing 17 you mentioned. Now, what did that involve? 18 A We wanted to do tissue analysis for aroclors. 19 chlorinated biphenyls. 20 Q And where were these tissue samples coming 21 from? 22 A They were coming from Industrial Biotest. 23 Q How was the work between Industrial Biotest . 24 and Monsanto coordinated? 25 A Coordinated through the medical department. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9199 164 1 Q Who did that? 2 A Elmer Wheeler was the main contact. 3 Q How was Industrial Biotest selected? 4 A The initial toxicity was done by Younger 5 Laboratories in Cutes. And Industrial Biotest was one 6 of the - - one of the companies that Monsanto used for 7 long-term, lower-level feeding studies. Monsanto had 8 used Industrial Biotest for other products. 9 Q Do you know what other products? 10 A Not specifically, no. 11 Q When you and Mr. Wheeler and Dr. Keller went 12 to Industrial Biotest, who did you meet with? - 13 A We met with Dr. Fancher and we met with 14 Calandra , the head of it, briefly. But the protocols 15 were, I think, really between Wheeler and Fancher. 16 Q When you talk about protocol, what do you 17 mean? 18 A Well, this is an agreement to test the 19 products in a certain way and certain animals for 20 certain lengths of time. 21 Q So the decision about how to conduct the 22 testing and how long to test it and what animals to use 23 was one that Monsanto participated in? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Why did you go and participate in that NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009200 165 1 meeting? 2 A Well, the research department was going to 3 play a part. We were going to foot part of the bill, 4 maybe all of the bill. We were trying to learn as much 5 as possible. I think those are the three major reasons. 6 Q When was it that this meeting took place? 7 A I don't know exactly. '68, somewhere along 8 in there. '69 maybe. 9 Q Did you have any information after this 10 initial meeting about what the result was in 11 establishing the protocols, how the studies were to be 12 done? 13 A Yes. I think we received copies. I'm not 14 sure I went up there. But the analytical people -- I 15 think Scott Tucker was -- who worked for Keller was 16 probably the closest to the actual detailed work, 17 analytical work, receiving samples, storing samples, 18 doing the hard part of the physical correlations and 19 reporting the results. 20 Q Was he also involved in actually conducting 21 the test on the samples? 22 A Yes. The analytical part. Not the animal 23 feeding studies. 24 Q Well, can you explain the difference between 25 the animal-feeding studies and the analytical studies? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009201 166 1 A Yes. The animal studies and the feeding and 2 so forth were done by Industrial Biotest. And then they 3 would section the animals and -- chickens, rats, dogs. 4 I'm not sure whether any other animals. But those 5 three, anyway. And then they would freeze samples and 6 send them to St. Louis. And our people would extract 7 and measure the Aroclor and as much about the chlorine 8 contents as we could at that time. 9 Q So that actually involved destruction of the 10 tissue sample in the process of testing it? 11 A Well, I guess they probably -- yeah. Have to 12 ask them. 13 Q That1s -- 14 A Extracting methods. 15 Q You're not aware of howthey did that? 16 A Not in precise detail, no. 17 Q And that wasn't actually done in your 18 department? 19 A It was done in Keller's department. 20 Q Right. 21 ' Were you involved in interpreting the results 22 of the work done by Industrial Biotest? 23 A No. Other than the analytical. We looked 24 pretty carefully at the analytical results. And we 25 looked at the -- some of the studies were made such that NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009202 0.0 I 1 we would feed for a while and stop feeding and find out 2 how fast the animal would eliminate and what isomers 3 would be eliminated. We looked at that kind of 4 information. The pathological stuff, the toxicity, the _5 animal behavior, the weights and all that stuff were 6 Industrial Biotest and were reported to the medical 7 department. 8 Q Okay. 9 From the reviews that you made of the 10 analytical testing of materials supplied by Industrial 11 Biotest, what conclusions did you personally reach? 12 A I reached the conclusion that the -- in 13 general, the higher chlorinated biphenyls, and I'm 14 talking about 54 and 65 and 6, were retained longer and 15 probably built faster than the lower chlorinated ones, 16 the 2s and 3s and some of the 4s. And this seemed to be 17 at least consistent with what was happening in the 18 environment itself. 19 Q Did you reach any other conclusions besides 20 that? 21 A I think that the other toxicity information, 22 on chickens we were accused of eggshell thinning and 23 things like that. I didn't see any evidence of that. 24 The other interpretation was left to the medical 25 department. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009203 168 Q And you don't have any opinion about that one way or the other? A No. We would listen -- try to listen to the medical department and listen to their interpretations. But we weren't really qualified to either argue or to know all the innuendos of the toxicity testing. Q This business of providing the FDA with analytical samples, did that involve anything more than responding to letters by sending vials or whatever the container was of PCBs to them? A I think recording the samples, make sure we had retained samples, try to meet their requirements in terms of what they wanted. I think we also visited the FDA laboratory. I was there at least once. Other people were down there trying to exchange information on test methods that they were developing and what we were developing. Q With regard to the development of this substituted product for the carbonless carbon paper, had you made any efforts at all to change the formulation of the chemical used for that prior to the development of these problems in the late 1960s? A I had not -- personally, right? I had no involvement. There were -- in the United States, Aroclor was selected by National Cash Register, the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9204 iby 1 inventor. In other areas -- I'm not sure of the timing, 2 but Wiggins Teeth in England had used HB 40, an 3 hydrogenated terphenyl. But there were different 4 systems. They had different systems and different 5 philosophies. 6 Q So that from the work that your group did you 7 were essentially starting from scratch? 8 A No. When we took over, the plasticizer group 9 had already begun work on a substitute. It was 10 isopropyl biphenyl, and all-hydrocarbon fluid, which was 11 not satisfactory as far as NCR went. So we had to 12 invent a new class of compounds. 13 Q I guess I'm trying to find out, from the time 14 somebody started on that project with Monsanto until it 15 was completed, how much time elapsed. 16 A Well, from the time we got a satisfactory 17 answer to NCR's problem, it was less than a year, I 18 think. 19 Q Okay. So from start to finish we're talking 20 less than one year? 21 A About a year for the satisfactory product. 22 Q Okay. 23 A How long the isopropyl biphenyl was a partial 24 substitute I don't recall. Maybe six months to a year. 25 Q What about the reformulation of hydraulic NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9205 170 1 fluids away from Aroclor? How long did it take to get 2 that problem resolved? 3 A It took about -- oh, about a year to get 4 Aroclor out. We substituted chlorinated terphenyls 5 first, and then we eventually went to a phosphate ester 6 system. That took about another year. 7 Q So within two years you were to a substitute 8 product that was satisfactory? 9 A Well, the second product probably was 10 satisfactory in a way. But I think the environmental 11 people were happier in not having any chlorinated 12 hydrocarbons out there. That's not necessarily true, 13 but certainly chlorinated aromatics, chlorinated 14 naphthalenes are there, chlorinated paraffins are there 15 still, chlorinated benzene is still there. But we were 16 trying to anticipate and make the best product we could. 17 Q With regard to the recommendation for 18 incineration, that was for the purpose of destroying 19 PCBs? 20 A It was the purpose for destroying PCBs and 21 providing our customers and our users with a way of 22 disposal of material that they were -- had been 23 contaminated or they couldn't use, yes. 24 Q That recommendation was adoptedby Monsanto? 25 A Yes. NELL MC CALLUM 8t ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009206 171 1 Q And Monsanto actually engaged in a program of 2 destruction of PCBs for customers? 3 A They did. 4 Q Was there any charge for that service? 5 A That's a question for Pappageorge. I'm not 6 quite sure what the answer was. I think maybe a nominal 7 charge or something. 8 Q Did anybody in your group suggest that 9 Monsanto immediately cease production of PCBs? 10 A Cease production? 11 Q Uh-huh. 12 A It might have been suggested. But it was - 13 never considered seriously. If you talk about a very 14 short time interval, I'm sure that it was considered as 15 a phase-out. It was considered as a phase-out. And in 16 conjunction with our customers. 17 Q Who suggested that you immediately cease 18 production of PCBs? 19 A I don't know specifically. But probably many 20 people at one time or another suggested it. 21 Q Do you know who at Monsanto suggested it? 22 A I don't know specifically. 23 Q Do you know that that recommendation was in 24 fact made, however, by people at Monsanto? 25 A I don't know there was ever any formal NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009207 172 1 recommendation such as that. 2 Q Well, whether it was formal or informal -- 3 A It depends on the time interval. 4 Q Well, as I understand it, Monsanto said that _5 it was going to cease production for uses like the ones 6 you described, plasticizers and carbonless paper and 7 things of that sort. 8 A Well, cease production is one thing. But 9 cease to sell to that application, I think that's -- 10 that's more correct. Cease production was another 11 situation. 12 Q Well, do those things go hand in hand or -- 13 A Not necessarily. You would cut production. 14 But you would not necessarily cease production. 15 Q Well, why would you still be producing if you 16 weren't selling for that application? 17 A Well, if you're selling Aroclor 1242 for 18 dielectrics and you're selling it for NCR paper, 19 carbonless carbon paper, you produce for electrical and 20 you cut back production and you just don't sell to the 21 user that you can't control -- or he can't control the 22 environment. 23 Q So, actually, the program that Monsanto 24 instituted was one that would limit sales and then have 25 the production match the demand for those uses it had NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009208 173 1 not limited sales for? 2 A Yes. That's closer to the picture. 3 Q And one -- it is not true, then, that one can 4 look and identify particular Aroclor production as being 5 for this use and another type of Aroclor production 6 being for another use? That's not the way it worked? 7 A That's not the way it worked. 8 Q Okay. In fact, was one plant dedicated to 9 production of aroclors for one particular type of use 10 and the other plant designated for production of 11 aroclors for the other type of use? 12 A There were not a -- there was not a complete 13 match, but they -- both Anniston and Krummrich both 14 produced electrical grade. You would have to examine 15 the detailed records point by point for just the other 16 grades that were made and when and where. 17 Q Okay. 18 And as I understand what Monsanto did, it did 19 not decide, at the time it stopped selling for the 20 applications like the carbonless paper and the 21 plasticizers and these other applications, that in two 22 years or three years or five years it would stop selling 23 for the applications like dielectric fluid. Isn't that 24 correct? 25 A Would you repeat that, please? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009209 X / 1 Q Yes. As I understand it, when Monsanto made 2 the decision to stop selling PCBs for applications like 3 carbonless paper, plasticizers, heat transfer fluids and 4 the like, they did not at the same time make the 5 decision to stop selling PCBs for dielectric use at any 6 point in time. 7 A The points did not coincide in time. The 8 electrical use was continued because the Westinghouse 9 and General Electric and the government said they didn't 10 have substitute products and therefore Monsanto should 11 continue until they at least got substitute products. 12 So it was not -- in any of these cases it's not 13 necessarily Monsanto's decision alone, it's Monsanto's 14 decision plus the customer, all usually big companies, 15 that would try to reach an agreement, yes, we will 16 substitute, we will stop. But it's always a Monsanto 17 customer relationship that is important, or sometimes a 18 Monsanto-government agreement of what will be done. 19 Q Are you telling me that Monsanto didn't have 20 the ability to stop PCB production on its own? 21 A Well, I don't know all the legal 22 ramifications in contracts that would be involved. But 23 in general we tried to be considerate of the customer, 24 the economy, what the government wanted. Those three 25 things. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009210 175 1 Q Well, is it your testimony that Monsanto 2 would sell PCBs for any application where there was not 3 a substitute? 4 A You're getting into a policy decision and 5 area that belongs to Mason when you get into the fine 6 points. 7 Q Well, I'm trying to find out what your 8 understanding as a person making recommendations and a 9 part of this group -- 10 A My recommendation was to limit the 11 applications to closed systems. That's easy to say. 12 You -- you try to minimize the exposure, you try to get 13 all your customers to reach that point, and you find out 14 that they can or can't, then you make a further 15 decision. 16 Q Were you involved in any of those further 17 decisions about -- 18 A The detailed decisions at that time were 19 probably made and came in more from marketing as to what 20 customers were doing, and the business decision and the 21 business director and John Mason, than the research 22 department at that stage. 23 Q And the primary closed use or closed system 24 that you sold for or that you would recommend selling 25 for was the dielectric use, was it not? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9211 176 1 A Yeah. And transformers in particular. 2 Q That's a dielectric use, is it not? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And the -- 5 A We substituted Aroclor 1016 to minimize the 6 environmental load in capacitors during the interim 7 period. 8 Q The marketing person there who was directly 9 responsible was Mr. Benignus? 10 A He was the manager. The still more 11 responsible man would be the director of marketing and 12 still more responsible would be Bergen and still more - 13 responsible would be Mason and still more responsible 14 would be some combination of law and Pappageorge 15 being -- having some input. 16 Q Can we go on up the chain till we get to 17 the -- 18 A I run out of -- I run out of -- at Mason I 19 run out of any kind of knowledge. 20 . Q But I mean we could, I guess, go on up the 21 chain -- * 22 A Theoretically you could go to the president. 23 I guess. or chairman of the board, I guess. 24 Q Okay. 25 A Or maybe the board of directors. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9212 l// 1 Q But in terms of being aware of how customers 2 were actually using PCBs and their ability to have the 3 closed system that you recommended, that was something 4 that would come back to a person like Mr. Benignus, who 5 had direct contact with the customers? 6 A He would be their prime contact. 7 Pappageorge, too. I visited a couple of the big plants, 8 tried to educate some of our customers what Monsanto was 9 doing. We did not try to run their operations. We 10 couldn't. We didn't know how to manufacture capacitors 11 or manufacture transformers, run an automobile shop or 12 whatever. 13 Q What customers did you visit? 14 A I visited General Electric at Hudson Falls; 15 General Electric at Pitsfield, Mass; Westinghouse at 16 Bloomington, but I didn't see all the plant. I think 17 those are the principal places that I went on this kind 18 of operation. 19 Q When you visited the GE plant at Hudson 20 Falls, who did you meet with? 21 A Probably briefly with the plant manager. But 22 I don't know the people that were in charge of 23 manufacturing. Engineers that were involved in the 24 manufacturing process. But I don't recall their names. 25 Q Did you go into the plant area itself? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9213 178 1 A Yes. . 2 Q What did you observe there? 3 A We observed them manufacturing capacitors. 4 small and big capacitors. 5 Q And did the use seem to meet your definition 6 of the closed system? 7 A It could have met the closed system. 8 Q Did it meet it? 9 A We measured effluents from that plant, which 10 is what we were concerned with, and there were PCBs in 11 the effluents at that time. What they did subsequently 12 I'm not sure. - 13 Q Do you recall about when it was that you went 14 to the GE Hudson Falls plant? 15 A I don't recall specifically. 16 Q What about the Pitsfield, Massachusetts, 17 plant? 18 A Same kind of visit, same time frame. 19 Q Same interest in the effluents of the plant? 20 A Yeah. Analytical methods. Make sure they 21 had them. 22 Q What about the Westinghouse plant at 23 Bloomington? 24 A I'm not certain of that. I was over there 25 and I think we were more on 1016 than we were on plant NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9214 179 1 effluent. 2 Q I'm sorry. 3 A Aroclor 1016. I think we were talking 4 Aroclor 16 rather than doing anything on plant 5 effluents. 6 Q So you're not sure if when you visited the 7 Westinghouse plant -- 8 A I did not see the Westinghouse operation in 9 detail. 10 Q So you don't know whether or not they were 11 operating in a way that would meet your definition of a 12 closed system? - 13 A No, I don't. 14 Q Do you have any reason to have an opinion one 15 way or the other? 16 A I don't have an opinion. 17 Q Do you know if anybody else visited the 18 Westinghouse plant in Bloomington to determine whether 19 or not the operation met the closed system -- 20 A I don't know specifically. 21 Q Who was it who recommended that the sales 22 contracts between Monsanto and people like GE and 23 Westinghouse be modified to allow Monsanto to cease 24 sales if the PCBs were not being handled in a way 25 acceptable to Monsanto? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009215 180 1 A That would be a business-legal-marketing 2 decision 3 Q Did you have any input on that? 4 A None. 5 Q Were you present at any meeting where 6 recommendations like that were made? 7 A None. No. 8 Q Were you aware that that was done? 9 A Just only after the fact, I think. 10 Q When did you first become aware of that? 11 A I couldn't tell you. 12 Q Ten years ago or -- - 13 A I don't know. 14 Q Not within the last week or two? 15 A I haven't had anything to do with PCBs since 16 19, roughly, 74. 17 Q And you knew it back then? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Okay. 20 In terms of what you've previously indicated 21 was the decision by Monsanto to continue to sell PCBs 22 for certain uses like dielectric uses because there were 23 no substitutes, did you have any problem recf onciling 24 that position with having a contractual clause that 25 would provide for stopping sales anyway? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9216 181 1 A I was not involved in that kind of decision. 2 operation. 3 Q You never thought about that at all? 4 A I didn't -- didn't participate and just 5 accepted what -- whatever was given back to us, that's 6 all. . 7 Q Okay. Without thinking it,through in any way 8 or wondering about it. Correct? 9 A It's up to the legal-marketing-business 10 decision on that score. 11 Q With regard to the development of substitute 12 fluids, was that a matter that was left to the customers- 13 to take care of? 14 A Would you rephrase the question, please? 15 Q Surely. When it came to developing 16 substitute electrical dielectric fluids, was that a 17 matter that the customers were to come up with or was 18 Monsanto involved in doing that? 19 A Both sides. 20 Q In other words -- 21 A Monsanto did and GE was also working. 22 Q When did Monsanto first develop a substitute 23 fluid that could have been used in capacitors and 24 transformers had PCBs not been available? 25 A We worked on 1016 -- okay? -- and that was NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9217 182 introduced. Non-PCB fluids, we worked on diphenyl sulfones, aromatic sulfones and hydrocarbon mixtures. These were introduced to the dielectric capacitor people. Some testing went on, some tested, some did not. And that's about the time when those -- I had been phased out when those things started to be taken to the marketplace, I was no longer part of the projects, so I don't know specifically what happened. Q But that became available as an alternative at about the time you left functional fluids? A '74, '75, '76, somewhere -- somewhere in there. Q Okay. A It probably was somewhat after I left that development wanted -- these were available. Q Do you know whether anyone else besides Monsanto had succeeded in finding an acceptable substitute before that time? A General Electric were working on phthalate esters, had been working on phthalate esters. I don't know the specifics. Q Who would be aware within Monsanto of when substitutions started being made for PCBs in dielectric use? A I don't know. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9218 183 Q Were there any uses of PCBs developed by your group, new uses I mean, after you came to that group in 1963? A I think the answer is, we thought of some but didn't go out with any. Q Why not? A I think we felt they were not satisfactory applications. Q What do you mean by that? A That they would really not do a job, not be unique. Not fulfill a unique purpose. We were after things that were unique to Monsanto and would fulfill a - particular marketing need. Q What was the interest in having products that were unique to Monsanto? A Well, we wanted to support a specialty product group, make it a specialty product group so it would be small -- essentially small volume and have a unique use. Q that? Is there some particular business reason for A Well, some people like to go for large volume. and it just turns out the fluid business is in general smaller volume and it's better to have a unique place in the industry, marketplace. Have a lot of NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9219 184 1 research to be done, a lot of application work. If it's 2 not unique, you can't support the application work 3 usually. 4 Q Would you explain what you mean by that? If 5 it's not unique you can't support the application work? 6 A Well, if the situation is -- you've got five 7 or ten suppliers, it's unlikely -- and they're all 8 equally divided in volume, it's unlikely that any one 9 can do a very good job. Pricing gets so low that you 10 can't put very many people on the project, maybe you 11 can't even support a research person. 12 Q So with a unique application there's a - 13 pricing arrangement where you can support more 14 researchers and the like? 15 A If the application is sufficiently in volume 16 and you're fulfilling that need in a way it should be 17 fulfilled, yes. 18 Q Was -- 19 A It becomes an engineering value rather than a 20 straight chemical value. 21 Q Was the PCB application one that would 22 support several researchers and the like? 23 A Well, we only had one. And two technicians. 24 So gross margins were not -- not tremendous. 25 Q The total number of people you had working on NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009220 1H3 1 PCBs -- 2 A No, not PCBs. You said dielectrics, I 3 believe. Is that right? 4 Q No, I asked about PCBs. Or I meant to if I 5 didn't. 6 A I guess we had as many as 10, 12 working on 7 substitute products. 8 Q Is that a fair number of people for a 9 relatively small-volume business as you've described it? 10 A It's as many as I could beg, borrow and 11 steal. 12 MR. LACEY: Okay. - 13 MR. SHOEBOTHAM: If this is a convenient 14 place, can we go off the record just a second? 15 MR. LACEY: Sure. 16 [Recess] 17 VIDEO OPERATOR: We're now back on the 18 record. 19 MR. LACEY: 20 Q Dr. Richard, let me show you a document 21 marked as 30 and ask you if you can tell me what this 22 is. 23 A It's a page that gives the physical constants 24 on Aroclor 1242, and the date is 4/57. 25 Q And what are physical constants? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9221 1 A These would be physical properties. 2 Q Are those the result of a test actually 3 performed on the material as of that time? 4 A It's before my time. Made by Ellenberg. 5 That's all I can say about it. 6 Q Okay. Were there physical constants data 7 sheets that were made at the time that you were 8 associated with functional fluids? 9 A We provided information so that a chart like 10 that might be made on various products. I don't know 11 the specific ones. Measure physical constants. 12 Q Who actually prepared these charts? 13 A Presumably the man signing it. 14 Q well, I guess -- 15 A I never knew Ellenberg, so -- I knew the 16 name, but that's it. 17 Q During the time that you were in the 18 functional fluid group with regard to the technical 19 matters you dealt with, what department or what group 20 prepared these physical constants data sheets? 21 A It was often marketing. It provided -- the 22 information would come from literature or from actual 23 measurements that we might do or physical laboratories 24 at Monsanto might do or could be done from the outside 25 if we didn't have the equipment to do it. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9222 187 1 Q Do you know how often these physical 2 constants data sheets were revised? 3 A No, I don't. I'd have to make a direct study 4 of it. _5 Q Let me show you Document 508 through 511 and 6 first ask you: Have you seen that before? 7 A I don't recall having actually seen these 8 five pages. Is I probably saw some of the data, but 9 that's not -- I don't think I saw this document per se. 10 I don't recall it. 11 Q That document deals, does it not, with the 12 experimental MCS1016? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q And that was a material that your group 15 worked on. Is that correct? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q Who in your group wasresponsible for the 18 1016 work? 19 A Dr. Munch was the -- I'd say the principal 20 person involved. But he had help from other sources. 21 Q The document has what appears to be a form of 22 letter, and attached to it are some materials that 23 relate to, according to the headings. Capacitor 24 Dielectric, MCS1016 and Aroclor 1242. What's the 25 relationship between the MCS1016 and Aroclor 1242? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9223 188 1 A Would you explain a little bit more about 2 what you mean by relationship? 3 Q Well, why are those two things appended to 4 that document together and how does one relate to the 5 other, if at all? 6 A MCS1016 was intended to be a dielectric fluid 7 that would be used in place of Aroclor 1242 with less 8 higher chlorinated isomers in it and therefore less of a 9 load on the environment if it got out. 10 Q Now, let me show you for comparison purposes again Document 30, which relates to Aroclor 1242, and 12 have you compare that with the information on Aroclor 13 1242 attached to Document 508 through 511. 14 A What about it? 15 Q Would you turnto the section of Document 508 16 and following that contains the data on Aroclor 1242? 17 There is a listing of properties there, is there not? 18 A Yes. 19 Q That's Sheet No. 511. Wouldyou compare the 20 listing of properties on Sheet 511 with the listing on 21 Sheet 30? 22 A Do you want me to go down point by point? 23 Q Really, I just want you to scan it, I 24 suppose, at this point and tell me if there are any 25 significant differences. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9224 189 1 A It would take me quite a bit of time to go 2 through point by point. 3 Q Can you look at it long enough to see if 4 there are any significant differences? You need not to 5 mark on those if you can avoid that. 6 A There may be differences, but I would prefer 7 to do this quietly and compare point by point. 8 MR. LACEY: That's fine. Feel free to do 9 that. Just don't mark on the originals, if you would. 10 MR. SHOEBOTHAM: Why don't we do this. 11 Will it take you a couple of minutes to run 12 that analysis? - 13 THE WITNESS: It will take me more than that. 14 because I've got to look through 30 items and see 15 whether the items are the same or different. 16 MR. SHOEBOTHAM: Let's let Dr. Richard go off 17 camera to go through that. 18 MR. LACEY: Certainly. 19 [Recess] 20 VIDEO OPERATOR: We're now back on the 21 record. 22 MR. LACEY: 23 Q Have you had a chance to compare the data on 24 30 with the data oh 511? 25 A I've looked at it. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9225 190 Q Okay. What differences did you note? A Some of the properties measured are different, test methods are different, some of the properties emphasized are different. The main difference is that just one is just typical. It's -- when you say typical, it has less than official meaning. I don't think this was meant as a physical constants sheet in the same sense that Ellenberg prepared this. Differences are 1957 to '62. Those are the differences I see. Q Is one more technical than the other? A I'm sure they were prepared for different reasons. Q What is the purpose of a physical constants data sheet? A ' There are many reasons. One could be engineering, building a plant, one could be for setting up specifications. You pick certain physical constants that you might want to monitor. Some might be for design, some might be for the intended use so that the user could calculate whether he was interested in the fluid. There would be many reasons. Q Can you tell from the Document 508 through 511 what the purpose of the sheet attached to it as 511 was? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9226 191 1 A I think that's a question for Mr. Benignus, 2 who wrote the letter. I think that would be the best 3 question. 4 Q My question is: Can you tell? Or is it too 5 obtuse to know? 6 A Well, the letter says that he was writing 7 this to introduce Aroclor MCS1016, possibly to the 8 capacitor people. It's not addressed to any particular 9 person or company. I don't know where it was sent. 10 Q But it is apparent, is it not, that that 11 sheet on 1242 that's attached as 511 was to be sent to 12 potential customers or customers? - 13 A You'll have to ask Benignus on that. 14 Q You don't know? 15 A I don't know. 16 Q Okay. 17 Were physical constants data sheets supplied 18 to customers like that one marked 30? 19 A This again is a question for details of 20 Benignus. I did not normally send out material to 21 customers. 22 Q You just don't know? 23 A I don't know. 24 Q Okay. 25 On Document 30 there is given a formula, is NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9227 192 1 there not? 2 A Says formula on the sheet. 3 Q And what is the formula that's given? 4 A It's an empirical formula for trichlor -- _5 probably for trichlorbenzene -- trichlorbiphenyl. But 6 you can't really tell. It's -- you know, it's just 7 that. It 's an empirical formula. 8 Q Well, we can -- or can you tell as a chemist 9 what chemical that is? 10 A It's just for an average chlorine content of 3. I'm sure Ellenberg knew that it was a series of 12 mixtures and isomers and so forth. - 13 Q That data sheet doesn't indicate that. 14 though, however, does it? 15 A The formula does not indicate that. Just an 16 empirical formula. 17 Q Well, if one were to look at that formula. 18 one would conclude that Aroclor 1242 was made up 19 entirely of PCBs containing three chlorine atoms to each 20 molecule. wouldn't they? 21 A You might imply that if you didn't know the 22 background and the chemistry of 1242. 23 Q And what would the actual formula for 1242 24 be? 25 A It would be complicated to figure it out. I NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9228 193 1 don't know the exact empirical formula. 2 Q Would the exact empirical formula vary even 3 from batch to batch? 4 A Depends on how precise you want it. How many 5 decimal places you carried out the hydrogen chlorine 6 valence. 7 Q It would not necessarily be perfectly 8 identical, I take it. 9 A Well, it depends on how many places you were 10 talking about. If you're just talking to the nearest 11 place, nearest number, it would probably be pretty 12 accurate and constant. If you're talking about six or 13 eight places out, it may be different. 14 Q Let me show you Document 1473, 1474. Do you 15 recognize this form of document? 16 A Not specifically. I see it's marked an OSHA 17 form, OSHA 20, May 1971. I don't think I ever 18 particularly remember anything about OSHA documents or 19 filling them out. 20 Q Okay. 21 Are you familiar with the specific blending 22 of particular Inerteens or Pyranols? 23 A I'm not familiar with the details of the 24 blending. I know we did blend some mixtures for both GE 25 and for Westinghouse. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9229 134 1 Q But what those blends were and why they're 2 done you do not know? 3 A Oh, well, yes, I know some were blended for 4 transformers; some were blended for stabilizers when 5 they were requested. 6 Q Let me show you Document 2026, which is a 7 part of a document beginning at 1967 and going to 2051, 8 where there is given at the bottom there the blending 9 for Pyranol 1467 and 1470, both of which apparently are 10 transformer oils. Are you familiar with a particular 11 reason for the different formulas there? 12 A When it says Pyranol, that would mean that GE~ 13 was calling the shot on what blends they wanted. 14 Q Okay. And that would not be something, then, 15 that would be developed by your group? 16 A No. 17 Q Let me ask you about Pydraul A-200. Are you 18 familiar with that product? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Whatwas Pydraul A-200? 21 A A blend of twoaroclors. I think the two 22 were 1242 and 1248, possibly 1254 and 1242. I'm not 23 sure which. 24 Q And do you know what that was used for? 25 A Used as a hydraulic fluid and a turbine NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009230 195 1 lubricant. 2 Q A what? 3 A Turbine lubricant. 4 Q Was that a name that came from General 5 Electric or -- 6 A Pydraul? No. That was a Monsanto name. 7 Q So that blend was specified, then, by 8 Monsanto people? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Was that specified by people in your group? 11 A I would think it would be specified by Mr. 12 Stark. It might be specified by marketing. - 13 Q Let me show you Document 11025, which is a 14 finished product specification for Inerteen 54201CN. 15 A Okay. 16 Q ' I see there it indicates under the heading 17 Research on that form what appears to be your name. 18 A Yes. 19 Q What involvement did you have in setting up 20 that Inerteen specification? 21 A The Inerteen specification again would be set 22 up by Westinghouse. 23 Q Do you know why your name is on that 24 document 2 25 A Sure. It would be a product that we would NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9231 170 1 have to -- would go in the fluids group. Lacey was the 2 manufacturing man at Krummrich; quality control was done 3 by Blauers at Queeny. But that would be it. We 4 wouldn't call out the specification in Inerteen. 5 Q Did your group have anything to do with an 6 Inerteen product like that one? 7 A We would try to make sure that we met that 8 specification. Manufacturing would. But in general if 9 it was okay, met the specification, research would not 10 need to be involved. If something was wrong with it, 11 then research would be called. Something inconsistent. 12 Q Let me show you you Document 5506, which - 13 refers to Aroclor 1242 nonelectrical grade. 14 A Okay. 15 Q What are the basic differences between 16 electrical grade and nonelectrical grade Aroclor 1242? 17 A They ran less -- fewer tests possibly before 18 they shipped it. . 19 Q Was there actually any difference in the 20 product? 21 A It came out of the same process. You would 22 have to go back and make sure just the time, the 23 conditions and so forth, but manufacturing would run 24 probably fewer -- fewer tests possibly. 25 Q Were there -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9232 xy / 1 A You would have to go back to control tests in 2 the plant and find out. 3 Q Were there less steps taken in the refining 4 of nonelectrical grade than in the refining of 5 electrical grade? 6 A Process should be the same. 1242. Wouldn't 7 want to change it. 8 Q Okay. Let me grab those things and get them 9 out of your way. 10 A Excuse me. I was just looking at who had 11 signed it. 12 Q Let me ask you generally about technical - 13 bulletins. What can you tell me about technical 14 bulletins? 15 A Usually prepared by the -- either 16 development, commercial development, or marketing 17 people, with the help of other departments, such as 18 research or medical or whatever was needed in the way of 19 pulling a document together. 20 Q Let me -- 21 A Possibly legal. 22 Q Let me show you some technical bulletins and 23 ask you to let me know what role, if any, your 24 department might have had in the development of the 25 bulletins. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9233 198 1 First let me show you a bulletin called the 2 Aroclor Compounds 84 through 131. 3 A Is there a date on this? 4 Q Feel free to review it and give me your -- 5 A Is there a date on it? 6 Q Well -- 7 A I'm not sure. 8 Q There are -- in many of the cases of these 9 documents -- numbers and codes which you may be able to 10 help us date. 11 A I really can't. This looks like an early -- 12 early Aroclor bulletin. I don't know, just why, just 13 maybe from the style is all I'm going. I don't see a 14 date in a quick perusal. The pictures you might be able 15 to date. If the pictures were clear you could possibly 16 date it from that. 17 Q How would the pictures -- 18 A I'd say an early bulletin. 19 Q How would the pictures help you date it? 20 A Well, who was in the pictures. Looks like 21 they were potentially Monsanto people. The style of the 22 pictures is in the laboratory or whatever. 23 Q Would a document like that have had 24 contributions made to it by the group like yours, 25 whether it was actually your people or -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9234 199 1 A All I can speak of is I don't think we 2 contributed to that. 3 Q Okay. 4 Let me show you another technical bulletin. 5 132 through 157, and ask what, if anything, your group 6 would have contributed to that bulletin. 7 MR. SHOEBOTHAM: I'm sorry. The numbers 8 again? Could I -- 9 THE WITNESS: Sure. 132. 10 MR. SHOEBOTHAM: Thank you. 11 THE WITNESS: Looks as if it's through 157. 12 Is that correct? - 13 MR. LACEY: I believe that's the last number. 14 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 15 I'd say again that -- quick judgment -- that 16 this is a bulletin before my time in fluids and it seems 17 to cover a combination of plasticizer uses and -- as 18 well as electrical uses. 19 MR. LACEY: 20 Q It does -- 21 A Looks like it's organic division. So it's 22 before the -- before the reorganization. You can date 23 it that way. 24 Q When we talk about before the reorganization, 25 we're talking before 1970. Correct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9235 4UU 1 A Yes, right. Before that. But my guess is 2 it's even before that. 3 Q And what causes you to believe it predates 4 1963? 5 A Well, it talks about adhesives and thermal 6 plasticity. And fluids group had -- resistance to 7 drying, things like that. We just had no -- no -- no 8 input at that time. 9 Q Is there anything about that document that 10 has information of the type that would come from your 11 group? 12 A That did come from it? 13 Q That would come from your group. And by that 14 I'm not talking about necessarily while you were in 15 charge of it, but the group that you had responsibility 16 over from 1963 forward. 17 A I can only speak from the time that I had 18 something to do with it. And I'm saying I don't think 19 that our group from '63 on contributed to that, to this 20 bulletin. I don't know that as a fact. I'm judging. 21 Q Well, who in Monsanto would know who 22 contributed to these bulletins and the sources of 23 information in them? 24 A You have to go back in history and you have 25 to find people that would remember the history of NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9236 2U1 1 Aroclor before my time. 2 Q Let me show you another technical bulletin. 3 407 through 421, and ask if there's anything in there 4 that would have been contributed to by your group. 5 A We could and probably did contribute to this 6 bulletin. The reason is that Thermonol 55 was a 7 relatively new product. We would have to measure -- 8 either have measured them internally or measured 9 externally and paid for the results for the physical 10 properties of 55. 11 Q What page number is that found on in the 12 document? - 13 A It's on Page 3 of -- or 410 in your SCM. And 14 Thermonol 55 properties are again given on 413, or 15 Page 6 of this document. I think probably we would 16 probably have something to do with the calculations in 17 changing -- changing to Thermonol 55 or 66 from FR. 18 Q What page are those found on? 19 A Page 7. Protecting system. 20 Q What's the other number? 21 A 414. We probably had something to do with. 22 on Page 9, system diagram possibly, some question -- we 23 certainly developed the oxidation testing of 55. That's 24 about it, though. I think that would be our 25 contribution. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9237 202 1 Q What would the purpose be of technical 2 bulletins like this, if you know? 3 A To aid the customer. Aid the customer. 4 principally. 5 Q They were not primarily for your internal 6 reference purposes? 7 A Yes, they would -- it served in that 8 capacity. But I think the major aim was to provide 9 information to customers. 10 Q So the primary purpose -- 11 A Potential customers or customers. 12 Q The primary purpose would be for people - 13 outside Monsanto. They would also serve a function for 14 people within Monsanto. Correct? 15 A Could, yes. 16 Q Or might not serve a function for people in 17 Monsanto, depending on the situation? 18 A It could serve a function inside Monsanto. 19 Q Okay. 20 A People who needed to be familiar with 21 physical properties or the attendant use. 22 Q Who actually had the overall responsibility 23 for generating technical bulletins? 24 A It indicated that the technical bulletins 25 were the normal responsibility of marketing and, on NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9238 203 1 occasion, commercial development, particularly when a 2 new product was introduced. . 3 Q And who would have the responsibility for 4 distributing them to customers or potential customers? 5 A Well, they would certainly be reviewed by 6 procedures like the legal department, and I don't know 7 what the distribution list was. And then I would guess 8 that -- I would say that the business director would 9 have overall responsibility. 10 Q I'm sorry. That's not my question. I'm 11 talking about who would be in charge of actually 12 distributing them out to customers? 13 A I don't know who would serve the -- I mean 14 the customer list or the -- I don't know who had that. 15 Q Do you know who was responsible for having 16 these bulletins updated, if they were, from time to 17 time? 18 A Marketing would be a prime responsibility. 19 It might be pushed by any one of the departments. 20 Medical would -- could push. There was a job that 21 Pappageorge pushed hard on. Research might indicate a 22 change if they had a change in methodology. Improved 23 methods or improved analytical. 24 Q Why would there be a push to update technical 25 bulletins? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9239 204 1 A To make customers aware of properties, make 2 customers aware of new information. 3 Q Do you know whether or not some procedure was 4 maintained whereby people who had received a prior 5 version of a technical bulletin would receive the update 6 of that bulletin? 7 A I'm not familiar with those details. 8 Q Are you familiar with any warnings that were 9 placed on PCB-containing products? 10 A I know they were placed. It was not my 11 responsibility nor did I have anything to do with the 12 wording, labeling function. Might have furnished - 13 information, but that was not the province of research. 14 Q Would you be able to identify from looking at 15 warnings when a particular warning was in use and when 16 it was superseded? 17 A I could not. 18 Q When you first came into the functional fluid 19 group, were warnings already being placed on the 20 products that were sold by the group? 21 A I'm not familiar with that. Labeling is, as 22 I said, the province of marketing, and manufacturing 23 would be the place to check in terms of what was on 24 what. 25 Q When information was given to customers NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0009240 1 regarding proposed new products, did your group review 2 that information before it was supplied to customers? 3 A I would say, in some cases, yes. In some 4 cases we might not have. 5 Q Let me ask you to look at document beginning 6 at 512 and continuing to 516 and ask if you reviewed 7 that document before it was sent out. 8 A There's no indication that I reviewed it. 9 And I have no recall of reviewing this particular 10 article. Document. 11 Q Is that the type of document that someone in 12 your group would have reviewed before it was sent out? 13 A It might have been reviewed by Dr. Munch. I 14 have no way of telling. 15 Q The document refers to the proposed 16 production of MCS1016 and states that: Our laboratory 17 has completed a capacitor life test study. Would that 18 be your group that would do that type of study? 19 A If we did it, it would be done by Munch, yes. 20 Q Were your people able to conduct those type 21 of studies? 22 A Small-scale capacitor testing we could do. 23 Small scale. That meant limited -- very limited 24 statistics. Just enough to maybe interest the customer. 25 Q It says here: We have an extensive research NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9241 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ' 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 206 program on materials for use in capacitor dielectric systems. Is that defining the research program that you had? A The only thing -- the thing that was extensive about it was -- was we were searching in terms of alternate materials. But as far as our test capacity, capacitor test, it was very small compared to anything that anybody else had that was really in the business. Q Would you characterize it as an extensive research program? A Extensive in terms of synthesis, yes. More extensive than the dielectric people. But in terms of capacitor testing, nowhere near what was required. MR. SHOEBOTHAM: Let's go off for a minute. [Recess] MR. SHOEBOTHAM: Back on the record. Dr. Richard has an appointment tonight and tomorrow morning that he has to leave for, he has a 6:25 flight. It's now 5:30. So we have to leave. We've been here for about eight and a half hours, with an hour for lunch -- MR. LACEY: More than an hour for lunch. MR. SHOEBOTHAM: Dr. Richard is also tired. I think this was a long enough day and certainly long NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9242 207 enough to complete the deposition, certainly when compared to some of the time limitations that have been imposed for experts in the case. So we need to leave at this time. MR. LACEY: Dr. Richard, when is your appointment this evening? MR. SHOEBOTHAM: Dr. Richard's appointment this evening is that his wife is going to meet him at the airport and he can't leave her standing out at the airport. He has a commitment tomorrow morning that he has to make, too. MR. LACEY: There is another flight later this evening, is there not. Doctor? MR. SHOEBOTHAM: I don't know what the airline schedule is, Mr. Lacey. But Dr. Richard needs to make the 6:25 flight that he is ticketed for. MR. LACEY: We'll be happy to see if we can't make alternate arrangements for another flight. I know there's a later flight this evening. And I feel confident we can make arrangements to call his wife and advise her of the fact he will be on the later flight. MR. SHOEBOTHAM: I appreciate that. But he has been testifying now since 9:00 this morning. MR. LACEY: Actually, we didn't even start at nine, John. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9243 208 1 MR. SHOEBOTHAM: We were here at a quarter of 2 nine. So if we didn't start at nine, that wasn't our 3 fault. He has been at it now since whenever we started 4 this morning. It's been a long day for him and I need 5 to get him on that airplane. 6 MR. LACEY: All right. We'll reserve our 7 right to take it up with the court. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 " 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9244 209 1 SIGNATURE OF WITNESS 2 3 I, William Richard Jr., solemnly swear or 4 affirm, under the pains and penalties of perjury, that 5 the foregoing 208 pages contain a true and correct 6 transcript of the testimony given by me at the time and 7 place stated, with the corrections, if any, and the 8 reasons therefor noted on a separate sheet of paper and 9 attached hereto, and that I am signing this before a 10 Notary Public. 11 - 12 - 13 14 William Richard Jr. 15 16 THE STATE OF 17 18 Subscribed and sworn to before me, the 19 undersigned authority, by the said William Richard Jr. 20 on this the day of , 1987. 21 22 24 Notary Public in and for 25 the State of ~ NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9245 210 1 THE STATE OF TEXAS] 2 CERTIFICATE 3 I, Jerry Kelley, a Certified Shorthand 4 Reporter, hereby certify that the foregoing testimony 5 was given before me after the witness had been duly 6 sworn. 7 I further certify that the foregoing is a 8 true and correct copy of the transcript of the 9 proceedings. 10 I further certify that I am neither 11 attorney for, related to nor employed by any of the 12 parties or any attorney of record in this cause, nor do 13 I have a financial interest in the matter. 14 Witness my hand in Houston, Texas, on 15 April 20, 1987. 16 17 18 19 20 Jehsy^Kelley, Texas CSR 2004* 21 2900 Smith, Suite 104 22 Houston, Texas 77006 23 713/523-3767 24 *My Certificate Expires 25 December 31, 1988 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONOOQ9246 HARTOLDMONOOQ9247