Document 50GQy0wNdGeGMpmr74kopMnOD

SUPERIOR FOR THE STATE FOR THE COUNTY COURT OF CALIFORNIA OF LOS ANGELES T FANS WESTERN PIPELINE COMPANY, PLAINTIFF, VS . MONSANTO COMPANY AND DOES 1 THROUGH 200 INCLUSIVE, DEFENDANTS. ) ) ) ) ) ) NO. BC 026959 ) ) ) ) ) ) DEPOSITION OF JACK T. GARRETT APRIL 1, 1992 GORE REPORTING COMPANY 100 NORTH BROADWAY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1-800-878-6750 (314) 241-6750 HARTOLDMONOQ25265 1 SUPERIOR COURT 2 FOR THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 3 FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES 4 5 TRANSWESTERN PIPELINE ) 6 COMPANY, 7 8 9 1 0 vs . ) ) Plaintiff, ) ) ) NO. BC 026959 11 1 2 MONSANTO COMPANY AND 1 3 DOES 1 THROUGH 200 1 4 INCLUSIVE, ) ) ) ) 15 ) 1 6 Defendants ) 17 1 8 Deposition of JACK T. GARRETT, taken 1 9 on behalf of the Plaintiff, at the offices 2 0 of Bryan Cave, One Metropolitan square, in 2 1 the City of St. Louis, State of Missouri, 2 2 on the 1st day of April, 1992 before Ronald 2 3 A. Gore, Registered Professional Reporter 2 4 and Notary Public. 25 |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 HARTOLDMON0025266 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: FOR THE PLAINTIFF: Mr. James P. Tallon Shearman & Sterling 725 South Figueroa Street Los Angeles, California 90017 and Ms. Christie A. Patrick Senior Counsel Enron Interstate Pipeline Company 1400 Smith Street Houston, Texas 77251 FOR THE DEFENDANT MONSANTO COMPANY : Mr. Charles F. Preuss Bronson, Bronson & McKinnon 505 Montgomery Street San Francisco, California 9411], GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 3 HARTOLDMONOQ25267 1 INDEX 2 PAGE 3 Examination by Mr. Tallon 6 4 5 6 EXHIBITS 7 8 Transwestern Exhibit 110 13 9 (Deposition notice o f Jack T. Garrett) 1 0 Transwestern Exhibit 111 10 9 1 1 (Tran Number s 058059 -058060) 1 2 Transwestern Exhibit 112 1 23 1 3 (Letter from Garrett to Patrick) 1 4 Transwestern Exhibit 1 1 3 13 6 1 5 (Letter From Garrett to Hinson, 1 6 Tran Number s 019567 ) 1 7 Transwestern Exhibit 114 14 2 1 8 (Letter from Garrett to Cheever, 1 9 Tran Numbers 019568 -019569) 2 0 Transwestern Exhibit 115 18 1 2 1 (Memorandum by Garrett, Tran Numbers 2 2 017181-017183) 2 3 Transwestern Exhibit 116 19 3 2 4 (Letter from Garrett to Wheeler, Tran 2 5 Numbers 025673-025675) |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 4 HARTOLDMONOQ25268 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Transwestern Exhibit 11 7 20 1 (Letter from Tucker to Garrett, Tran Number 0 2 2 0 9 0 ) Transwestern Exhibit 11 8 208 (Letter from Wright, Tr an Number 0 8 5 2 7 2 ) GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 5 HARTOLDMONOQ25269 1 JACK T. GARRETT 2 of lawful age, having been first duly sworn 3 to testify the truth, the whole truth, and 4 nothing but the truth in the case 5 aforesaid, deposes and says in reply to 6 oral interrogatories propounded as follows, 7 t o-wi t : 8 EXAMINATION 9 QUESTIONS BY MR. TALLON: 1 0 Q. Would you state your full name for 1 1 the record, please? 1 2 A. Jack T. Garrett. G-a-r-r-e-t-t. 1 3 Q. Mr. Garrett, I'm Jim Tallon, I'm 1 4 an attorney representing Transwestern 1 5 Pipeline Company in a case that's pending 1 6 in Los Angeles, California against 1 7 Monsanto. Just before the deposition 1 8 started you met my colleague, Christie 1 9 Patrick. 2 0 A . Yes. 2 1 Q Who is from Transwes tern, a n d she 2 2 will b e joining us i n the r o o m . For most 2 3 of t o d a y and per haps into tom o r r o w I ' m 2 4 going to be asking you some questio 2 5 I just wanted to la y a couple of gr IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 6 HARTOLDMON0025270 1 rules before we get started. If I ask you 2 a question and you respond, I will assume 3 from the response that means that you 4 understood what I was asking about, that 5 you understood the language I used in that 6 question. If that's not the case, then you 7 should feel free to stop and to say that 8 you didn't understand it. 9 A. All right. 1 0 Q. Therefore, we can deal with a 1 1 clean record. 1 2 A . Okay. 1 3 Q. Is 429 Geyer Forest Drive in St. 1 4 Louis, Missouri your home address? 1 5 A. That is correct. 1 6 Q. And are you currently a consultant 1 7 in industrial hygiene and occupational 1 8 health management? ]. 9 A . Yes. 2 0 Q Could you please. Mr. Garrett, 2 1 m e whether or not you have ever given 2 2 testimony in a deposition such as this one 2 3 before today? 2 4 A . Yes. 2 5 Q. And can you tell me how many times GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 7 HARTOLDMONOQ25271 1 you gave testimony in a deposition such as 2 this one before today? 3 A. Ten or twelve times. 4 Q. In any of the ten or twelve times 5 where you gave deposition testimony was a 6 subject of deposition testimony 7 polychlorinated biphenyls, sometimes known 8 as P C B s ? 9 A. As a major subject, no. 1 0 Q . Was it ever a subject, major or 1 1 minor, in any of those ten or twelve cases? 1 2 A. Minor, yes. 1 3 Q . Can you, if you know, tell me the 1 4 occasions on which you gave testimony that 1 5 related to PCBs? 1 6 A. No. I don't recall. 1 7 Q . Can you tell me when the most 1 8 recent of those depositions occurred? 1 9 A. I could bound i t by saying within 2 0 the last three years. 2 1 Q. And can you tell me, if you're 2 2 able, what kind of time span those ten or 2 3 twelve depositions covered from the 2 4 earliest to the latest? 2 5 A. Probably 20 years. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 8 HARTOLDMONOQ25272 1 Q Were any of the ten or twelve 2 depositions that you be 1 i e v e you gave 3 connected with your wor k for Monsanto? 4 A A 1 1 of t h e m we r e . 5 Q A n d at t h o s e d epositions do you 6 b e 1 i e v e t h a t y o u w ere r epresented by 7 c o u n s e 1 for Mon s a n to? 8 A I was represen ted by counsel. How 9 the c o u n s e 1 got t h ere a nd whose pay he was 1 0 i n , I do n o t k n o w . 1 1 Q D i d y o u r e t a i n personally any of 1 2 the a 11 o r n e y s w h o a c c o m panied you to any of 1 3 t h o s e t e n o r t w e 1 v e d e p ositions? 14 A No ] 5 Q T o the b e s t of your knowledge, was 1 6 the a t t o r n e y s u pp 1 i e d o r provided for you ]. 7 by M o n s a n t o ? 1 8 A 0 r one o f its law firms, I 1 9 pres u m e . 2 0 Q F o 1 1 o w i n g any of those ten or 2 1 t w e 1 v e d e p o s i t i o n s did you review 2 2 d e p o s i t i o n t r a n s c r i p t w here the questions 2 3 and a n s w e r s w e r e s h o w n to you in typed 2 4 format? 2 5 A . Yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 9 HARTOLDMONOQ25273 1 Q . And did you make corrections or 2 changes on any of those ten or twelve 3 deposition transcripts? 4 A. Yes. e> Q . To the best of your knowledge, 6 were copies of those transcripts provided 7 to the attorneys who accompanied you to 8 those depositions? 9 A. I don't know. 1 0 Q . To the best of your knowledge, 1 1 were copies of the transcripts of those ten 1 2 or twelve depositions furnished to 1 3 Monsanto? 1 4 A. I assume so. But it's an 1 5 assumption. 1 6 Q. Have you ever testified at a trial 1 7 as distinct from a deposition? 1 8 A . Yes. 1 9 Q . And on how many occasions do you 2 0 believe that you testified at trials? 2 1 A. Once in a full trial. 2 2 Q . And did your testimony at that 2 3 trial relate to your work for Monsanto? 2 4 A . No. 2 5 Q . Was that testimony related to GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 HARTOLDMONOQ25274 1 something personal? 2 A . No. 3 Q . Was it related to work that you 4 did after you left Monsanto? 5 A . Yes. 6 Q . Was the subject of the trial 7 estimony -- d i d the subject of the t r 8 estimony in any part include testimony 9 ith respect t o P C B s ? 1 0 A . No. 1 1 Q A s you sit here today, Mr. 1 2 Garrett, I just want t o be sure, is there 1 3 anything a t all you r e c o llect about the 1 4 testimony you gave in the ten or twelve 1 5 depositions that you believe you testified 1 6 in as it related to testimony regarding 1 7 PCBs ?. 18 A.Testimony is thewords of an 1 9 individual, and, no, I do not remember the 2 0 words exactly. 2 1 Q. Can you tell me -- understanding 2 2 that time has passed sinceyou gave the 2 3 individual depositions, can you tell me 2 4 without specific reference to the precise 2 b words used in the depositions what the !ORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 11 HARTOLDMONOQ25275 1 subjects of those depositions were as they 2 pertained to PCBs? 3 A . In all of those cases they were 4 not specifically for PCB, the subject of 5 the deposition was elsewhere. 6 Q. Understanding that the subject of 7 the deposition did not exclusively concern 8 PCBs, do you remember any aspect of the 9 deposition in terms of its subject matter 1 0 that touched on PCBs? 1 1 A. As a general subject of 1 2 toxicology . 1 3 Q As you s i t here tod a y, and I do 1 4 not refer now to s p e c i f i c wo rds , but d o you 1 5 remember anything i n add i t i o n to the f a c t 1 6 that the subject w a s the gen e r a 1 sub j e c t o f 1 7 toxicology? ] 8 A. It was secondary to the primary 1 9 purpose of the deposition, and so I really 2 0 don't know. 2 1 Q. So your memory today is that the 2 2 only thing you can say about those 2 3 depositions is that insofar as they touched 2 4 on PCBs the subject in general was 2 5 toxicology? |GORB REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 HARTOLDMONOQ25276 1 A . That is co r r e c t . 2 Q And you re member nothing more than 3 that? 4 A . No . 5 Q I just want to di r e c t one c o m m e n t 6 to Mr Preuss. You 're a w a r e that we h a v p a 7 r e q u e s t in for the deposit ion t r a n script o f 8 all o f the witnesse s who w ill be t e s t i f y i n g 9 in t h i s case, and i n many c a s e s we have 1 0 r e c e i v e d a depositi on t r a n s c r i p t , but no n e 1 1 for Mr. Garrett. 32 MR. PREUSS : The sub j e c t matter 1 3 d i d n ' t concern PCBs , as I u n d erstand it. I 1 4 w a s n ' t involved in that, b u t -- 15 MR . TALLON : Well, something 3. 6 the d e positions did. I n any event, we 1 7 would make a request for production of 1 8 deposition transcripts in the possession, 1 9 custody or control of Monsanto of Mr. 2 0 Garrett. Let me have marked as the next 2 1 exhibit in our continuing series, which 2 2 will be Transwestern Number 110, a 2 3 deposition notice of Jack T. Garrett. 2 4 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 2 5 110 mark'd for identification). |G0RE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 HARTOLDMONOQ25277 1 MR . T A L LO N : M r . Garrett I 'm 2 showing you now what the court reporter has 3 marked as Transwestern Exhibit Number 110, 4 a deposition notice of Jack T. Garrett in 5 the case of Transwestern Pipeline Company 6 versus Monsanto Company, and I'll ask you 7 if you've seen that deposition notice 8 before today? 9 A. No. I have seen similar ones. 1 0 Q. Mr. Garrett, before this ] 1 deposition today you met with counsel for 1 2 Monsanto? 13 MR. PREUSS: You can answer that 1 4 yes or no. 1 5 A . Yes. 16 MR. TALLON: Have you - 1 7 A. I think. 1 8 Q. And I take it the "I think" is 1 9 that you're not sure who Mr. Preuss is 2 0 representing? 2 ] A. No. No, I know who Mr. Preuss is 2 2 representing, but youtalked about an 2 3 attorney from Monsanto. 2 4 Q. I'm sorry, I thought I said for 2 5 Monsanto . |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 HARTOLDMONOQ25278 1 A . Yes . I'm sorry. Then the answer 2 is yes. 3 Q All right. I take it from that 4 answer that you met with Mr. Preuss? 5 A . Yes 6 Q Did you examine any files that you 7 may >h a v e at home or in your office, if you 8 have an o f f i ce, to determine whether or not 9 you had documents that -- 1 0 A . N o . They were left when I 1 1 retired 1 3 o . D o you have a home office? 1 3 A . Yes 1 4 Q And do you keep certain files 1 5 there? 16 A. Yes. Files on my children, I 1 7 think, primarily. 1 8 Q. You don't have a correspondence 1 9 file dating from your years at Monsanto? 2 0 A . No. 2 1 Q. Do you have any materials at home 2 2 that relate to Monsanto? 2 3 A. Other than retirement documents, 24 no . 2 5 Q. You don't have any files off-site. |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 HARTOLDMON0025279 1 that is to say, not in your home but in 2 storage or the like that relate to 3 Monsanto? 4 A. No. Excuse me. I have books and 5 documents connected with written, published 6 items, and those may cover PCBs and a great 7 number of other materials. But they're 8 purchased books. 9 Q. Can you just tell me in general 1 0 what kind of books you're talking about? 1 1 A. Industrial hygiene books, 1 2 toxicology books, industrial safety books. 1 3 Q. Are any of the books or other 1 4 works that you referred to works or books 1 5 that were privately published by Monsanto? 16 A . No . 1 7 Q Are you the author of any o f the 1 8 books or other works that you have a t home? 1 9 A. I authored a book, yes. 2 0 Q - What is the name of that book? 2] A. It's on the -- the name of it is 2 2 Industrial Hygiene Management. 2 3 Q. And what was the year of 2 4 publication of that work? 25 A. Oh, gosh. Eight years ago, (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 HARTOLDMON0025280 1 about. That would be my guess. It needs 2 to go into second edition, and we probably 3 will start on that in a few days -- in a 4 fp. w weeks. 5 Q. Who is your publisher, Mr. 6 Garret t? 7 A . Wiley. 8 Q Now, you are a high school 9 graduate. correct? 1 0 A . Yes. ] 1 Q Could you pie a s e d e s cribe to m e 1 2 your formal educat ion f o 1 1 o w i n g high 1 3 school? ] 4 A . Aside from my m i 1 i t a ry educati on? 1 5 Q Yes. ] 6 A . I think I wen t to sc hool more 1 7 often in the Army than I did elsewhere. I ] 8 have a B S degree i n c h e m i s t r y from Okla h o m a 1 9 State Uni versity a t St i 1 1 w a t e r, Oklahom a , 2 0 and an MS degree i n inorganic physical 2 1 chemis try from the Uni vers it y of Tennes see. 2 2 Knoxville . 2 3 Q. In what year did you receive your 2 4 BS degree from Oklahoma State? 25 A. '56. No, '58, I beg your pardon. I IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MI SSOURI 17 HARTOLDMONOQ25281 CD 1 '58, I'm sorry. Wait. Hell, the 2 was over in '46, I got out in March o f 3 '46. 4 Q F o 1 1 o w i ng your mil i t ary service 5 went t o coll ege on the G . I . bill? 6 A . Yes . I had enough t i m e to get my 7 Master's as well. 8 Q. What year did you receive your 9 Master's? 1 0 A . 1 9 4 9. 1 1 Q. Do you have any additional formal 1 2 education? 1 3 A. Depends on what you mean by 1 4 formal. 1 5 Q . Did you ever begin a P h ., D program? 1 6 A . I had one one set up a t Tennessee, 1 7 but it went to pot. If you remember in 1 8 1949 -- 1 9 MR. PREUSS: You answered the 2 0 question. 2 1 A . Okay. 22 MR. TALLON: In what way did it go 2 3 to pot? What happened? 2 4 A. Depression. Thefirst post-war 2 5 depression, the money disappeared. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 HARTOLDMONOQ25282 1 Q. Are you currently a member of any 2 technical or chemical society? 3 A. American Chemical Society, 4 coin mo nly known as ACS. National Safety 5 Council. American Industrial Hygiene 6 Association. And the American Industrial 7 Hygiene Academy. 8 Q. Have you been in the past a member 9 of any other professional, technical or 1 0 chemical society which you are not 1 1 currently affiliated with? 12 A. I really don't remember. Possibly 1 3 representing Monsanto, but other than that, ] 4 I don't remember. There are so many 1 5 scientific groups that you are members of 1 6 temporarily and so forth. Like the 1 7 American Petroleum Institute, for example. 1 8 And depending on what I was asked to do and 1 9 what it entailed, I was members of certain 2 0 ones . 2 1 Q. Were you ever Monsanto's 2 2 representative to the American Petroleum 2 3 Institute? 2 4 A. Yes, in a substituted -- in a 2 5 committee application. I was a Monsanto (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 HARTOLDMONOQ25283 1 representative on a subcommittee of the 2 medical committee of the American Petroleum 3 Institute. 4 Q . When did you serve on that 5 subcommittee? 6 A. Oh, back in the ' 6 0 ' s , early 7 ' 7 0 ' s , perhaps. 8 Q . Do you recollect being Monsanto's 9 representative to any other professional, 1 0 technical, chemical society or the like? 1 1 A. I was a member of dozens of formal 1 2 organizational committees like those for 1 3 the Chemical Manufacturing Association, the 1 4 Ohio River Valley Water Sanitation 1 5 commission, the API, the American Petroleum 1 6 institute. Oh, Lord. Oh, for three years 1 7 I was a member of the National Drinking ] 8 Water Council appointed by the secretary of 1 9 Health, Education and Welfare, twice, 2 0 reappointed once. 2 1 Q. Anything else that you recall 2 2 today? 2 3 A. No. But there are others I just 2 4 simply don't recall. 2 8 Q . Okay. Have you ever acted as an GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 20 HARTOLDMONOQ25284 1 officer of the American Chemical Society? 2 A . No. 3 Q. Have you ever participated in 4 drafting any reports issued by the American 5 Chemical Society? 6 A. I'm trying to remember back as a 7 student. No. 8 Q. Have you ever served as an officer 9 of the National Safety Council? 1 0 A . No. 1 3 Q. Have you ever participated in 1 2 drafting any reports or publications issued 1 3 by that council? 1 4 A. I was on a committee that studied 1 5 some of the documents at one point in time. 1 6 Q. What committee was that, sir? 1 7 A. It was a publication committee 1 8 that studied publications, the Safety 1 9 Council's publications for accuracy and 2 0 clarity. 2 1 Q. I take it from your description 2 2 that that committee was, in essence, an 2 3 editorial board or quality check board? 2 4 A. Yes. And it was set up by one of 2 5 the people to make sure they didn't step on IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 21 HARTOLDMONOQ25285 1 anyone's toes like the medical side. 2 Industrial hygiene and safety are 3 different, but they're the same, and to 4 make sure that this was clear we had a -- 5 for a time a publicity -- publication 6 thing that 3. ooked at some of their 7 documents to make sure they weren't 8 stepping on unnecessary toes. 9 Q. Did you ever serve as an officer 1 0 o the American Industrial Hygiene 1 1 Association? 3 2 A . Yes. 3 3 Q . And what office did you hold or 1 4 offices did you hold? 3 5 A. I was national chairman of 1 6 personnel. It was chairman of -- of 1 7 expanding the damn thing, getting new 1 8 members. 39 MR. PREUSS: Membership? 2 0 A. Membership. Thank you. I was 2 3 membership chairman for the national 2 2 organization. For the local organization 2 3 I've been every officer. 24 MR. TALLON: Local meaning -- 25 A. The St. Louis section of the . GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 22 HARTOLDMONOQ25286 1 American Industrial Hygiene Association. 2 Q. Did you ever participate in the 3 drafting of any publication issued by the 4 American Industrial Hygiene Association? 5 A. Goodness, yes. Many. 6 Q. To the best of your recollection, 7 did any of the publications in which you a participated in drafting touch on or 9 concern PCBs? 1 0 A . Yes. 1 1 Q. As you sit here today, do you 1 2 recollect the names of any of those 1 3 publ ications? 1 4 A. The first industrial hygiene guide 1 5 published on PCBs by the A IH A itself was 1 6 authored by myself and Elmer P. Wheeler. 1 7 Q. And to the best of your 1 8 recollection, when was that publication 1 9 published? 2 0 A . Probably in the late ' 5 0 ' s . 2 1 Q Do you have avai 1 a b 1 e t o you at 2 2 a copy of that publi cation 7 2 3 A . N o . It has been upgraded several 2. 4 times that I did not participate in. 2 5 Q. You mentioned written by you and GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 23 HARTOLDMONOQ25287 1 Mr. Elmer Wheeler, can you identify Mr. 2 Elmer Wheeler for the record? 3 A ,Mr. Elmer Wheeler was assistant 4 medical director of Monsanto and was my 5 immediate superior for a number of years. 6 Now deceased. 7 Q. Other than the first industrial 8 guide published by the American Industrial 9 Hygiene Association with respect to PCBs, 1 0 were you a drafter or did you participate 1 1 in the drafting of any other publications 1 2 issued by that group that touched on or 1 3 related to PCBs? 1 4 A . No. 1 5 Q. Have you ever served as an officer 1 6 of the American Industrial Hygiene Academy? 17 A. No. I have not. 1 8 Q. Have you ever participated in the 1 9 drafting of any publication issued by the 2 0 American Industrial Hygiene Academy? 2 1 A. Nothing concerning -- it would 2 2 have been personnel related, nothing 2 3 concerning toxicology or individual 2 4 materials or anything like that, no. They 2 5 don't publish that sort of stuff. i GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 24 HARTOLDMONOQ25288 1 Q When .you say. personnel .you mean , 2 again, membership? 3 A . Membership, who's qualified, when 4 do you hold certification, certification b tests. That is the organization that 6 issues the CIH. You see it on my card. 7 Certified Industrial Hygiene, that 8 organization. 9 Q. And what is the designation CSP on 1 0 your card? ] 1 A. Certified safety professional. 1 2 Q. What organization certifies you as 1 3 a safety professional? 1 4 A. The organization of 0-F-g-a-n i z e4- 1 5 Safety Professionals, believe it or not. 1 6 Q. And when did you receive 1 7 certification as a CSP? 18 A. Thefirst time they held tests, I 1 9 took the first test. Oh, CSP? No. That 2 0 was in the ' 7 0 ' s . Probably mid ' 7 0 ' s . 2 1 Q. And in your answer of a moment ago 2 2 you may have been referring to the CIH 2 3 certification, when did you get that 2 4 certification? 2 b A. That was in the late '60's. As I GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 25 HARTOLDMONOQ25289 he/d 1 said , the first test they they 2 gj d ndfathered everybody in but me, and I 3 had to take the test. 4 Q. Okay. You indicated that you 5 served on a subcommittee of the medical 6 committee of the American Petroleum 7 Institute. Am I correct that that was as a 8 representative of Monsanto Company? 9 A. That's right. 1 0 Q. And was the business of that 1 1 subcommittee in any way related to PCBs? 12 A. Tangentially at best. It was 1 3 related to the toxicity of materials 1 4 handled in the refining and transportation 1 5 of petroleum products in a very broad 1 6 sense, and to the best of my knowledge, we 1 7 never discussed -- to the best of my 1 8 recollection, we never discussed PCBs. It 1 9 was largely the direct toxicity of 2 0 individual materials. 2 1 Q. Was one of the individual 2 2 materials discussed by that committee PCBs? 2 3 A. Not while I was on it, no. 2 4 Q. In what period did you serve on 2 5 that subcommittee? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 26 HARTOLDMON0025290 j 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. It had to have been -- it would be difficult to say. Sometime in the early ' 7 0 ' s or late 1 6 0 ' s , that's when I went on it. The committee kind of phased out. You know, like many committees, it disappeared. Q. Did that subcommittee issue any reports, publications in which you participated in the drafting? A. No. That subcommittee was an industrial hygiene group that was advisory to the main members of the committee of the medical committee of the API who were primarily concerned with medical doctors. And since they used most of their API time to play golf, somebody had to do the technical work, and that's exactly why that committee was organized. I'm sorry, put it any way you want to, but that's the truth. Q. That doesn't trouble me at all. Now, let me just refer back for a moment to your membership in all of these groups. Did you need to, or did youseek approval of your immediate superior or anyonein the chain of command at Monsanto in order to participate in these groups? ! |GORE HARTOLDMONOQ25291 1 A. in many respects -- let's put it 2 this way, in some respects it was my 3 doing. I pushed it. In other respects 4 others pushed it. I got put on many of the 5 committees by the company, either my boss 6 or the director or someone over in staff, 7 over in the board. 8 Q. Were you encouraged by Monsanto to 9 be active in professional societies? 1 0 A. To be professionally active, yes, 1 1 encouraged, and the company paid the bills 1 2 for me and so forth. 1 3 Q. With respect to the publication by ] 4 the American Industrial. Hygiene 1 5 Association, the first industrial guide to 1 6 industrial safety relating to PCBs, you 1 7 indicated that that first guide was later 1 8 updated, is that correct? 1 9 A. A moment to discuss guides. 2 0 American industrial Hygiene Association 2 1 publishes guides, they're very brief 2 2 subjects to give people of foreman class or 2 3 junior management class, people in industry 2 4 a brief look at what he needed to do to 2 5 protect people in handling these products. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 28 HARTOLDMONOQ25292 1 That's what it was for. And it was very 2 brief. They were generally one page. And 3 they were done that way purposely. And we 4 did a whole mob of them. We, on our 5 products, to the degree that our products 6 came up from the committee that chose -- 7 and I had nothing to do with the committee 8 that chose the subjects, we just did the 9 writing and briefing. And it's difficult 1 0 to brief these things down to keep them on 1 1 one page. They were printed on a semi 1 2 cardboard that you could tack on a bulletin 1 3 board. They were called Industrial Hygiene 1 4 Guides . 1 5 Q. So, to your recollection, what was 1 6 the length of the first industrial guide 1 7 that you and Mr. Wheeler worked on? 1 8 A. Half a page. 19 Q. And did you participateat all in 2 0 determining its distribution by the 2 1 American industrial hygiene association? 2 2 A . No. 23 MR. PREUSS: You mean the guide as 2 4 opposed to the half page? 2 5 A. The guide itself? |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 29 HARTOLDMON0025293 1 MR. TALLON: Yes. Well strike 2 1 It a 1 . Let me just be clear. Are you 3 drawing a distinction between the guide and 4 the half page? b A. The guide was the half page. 6 Q. Okay. Was there anything else? 7 A . No. 8 Q . Okay. 9 A. And it was limited to one page. 1 0 Q. Right. Now, did you have anything J 1 to do with the distribution of that one 1 2 page guide? ] 3 A . No. 1 4 Q. Do you have any knowledge of the 1 5 distribution by the American Industrial ] 6 Hygiene Association? 1 7 A. It was available to all members of 1 8 the industrial hygiene association from the 1 9 offices in Akron, Ohio . It was p u b 1 i shed 2 0 in their journal, that you sent in so many 2 1 dollars for certain of them and they 2 2. published the list of the ones they had. 2 3 At one point in time you could buy the 2 4 whole set if you wished. It began to 2 5 disappear. The AIH A, in essence, over the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 30 ' HARTOLDMONOQ25294 1 years backed out of it because it was a ?. difficult task and a very controversial one 3 to try to jam into one page --- can you 4 ininrjii.' i n g this for benzene, toluene, 5 things like that? It would be difficult. 6 And if was difficult. And I helped on some 7 of those, too. 8 Q. Why difficult? 9 A . Because of the problem:-; < o n i, . c t. e d ] 0 wilt) ................. i - if, i. n1ogy that you could not 1 1 really cover in one page. You're a 1 i e a dy 1 2 pulling nn there the name, all the other 1 3 names, the symbols, its chemical structure cxnaJ^f/ (LAJ? 1 4 and any of the S'tru c t ur et-jr methods, all of 1 5 its physical and chemical properties. 1 6 You 'ic still stuck to one page, so your 1 7 toxicology industrial hygiene paragraph is 1 8 about i he! big. So it became cumbersome to 1 9 do this with materials of a very far 2 0 reaching toxicology. 2 1 Q. I take it from your response that 2 2 there was insufficient space on the one 2 3 page to fully describe the important or 2 4 salient points? 28 MR. PREUSS: Well, I'm going to !ORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 31 HARTOLDMONOQ25295 i 1 object; over-broad, non-specific. 2 MR. TALLON: You can answer. 3 A. It really was an evolutionary 4 p j arras . In safety and health the amount 5 of material needed has grown through the 6 years and this -- they outgrew the need 7 for the industrial hygiene guides, because 8 other organizations were publishing formal 9 documents or little booklets on them. The 3 0 API published them, the MCA published 1 1 them. I participated in writing a great 1 2 tii any of them, just participated with a 1 3 group, a cluster of people that handled 1 4 these materials that knew something about 1 5 them. And the API had a whole mob of them, 1 6 and the Chemical Manufacturers Association 1 7 did, likewise. None of them do it any 1 8 more. It's too complex to be able to snub 1 9 this stuff down into small enough form to 2 0 make it available and understandable to 2 1 foreman class people. Okay? I'm not 2 2 trying to be class conscious. I'm telling 2 3 you that the average foreman couldn't 2 4 understand, when you start getting out into 2 5. extraneous toxicology issues. So, to keep GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 32 HARTOLDMONOQ25296 1 from -- I was participating when they 2 d i s ri p fi c a i' e d , one set stopped, the A C A set 3 stopped. It got to the point where you couldn't do it in a decent short enough 5 length to justify that type of 6 publication. If you're going to make a 20 7 page document, it doesn't fit a pamphlet 8 i o i m . T mean, s-e- they just f e a t-h o r o d out, 9 and they did -- all of the makers of these pub// 3 0 "fc-b-t--H-g--!S f TTxrttrErnnr enrir. In other words, the 1 1 industria 1 h y g i e n e g u ides, the MCA s a f e ty 3 2 data s h r i.: f 0 , the API' s data she e t just 1 3 disappear e d for lack of need fo r that k L n d 1 4 of information any more. 1 5 Q. In connection with that first 1 6 indti:;t/ial guide that you and Mr.Wheeler 1 7 worked on, was that replaced by another one 1 8 page guide at a later date or did it simply 1 9 phase out of existence? 2 0 A. I really don't know. 2 1 Q. Okay. Now, I've asked you 2 2 questions about whether you participated in 2 3 drafting publications for any of the five 2 4 organizations that we touched on thus far. 2 5 Did you review publications proposed to be PORK REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 33 HARTOLDMONOQ25297 1 published by any of the five organizations 2 that, we've discussed, including the 3 American Chemical Society, the National 4 Safety Council, the American Industrial 5 Hygiene Association, the American 6 Industrial Hygiene Academy, or the American 7 Petroleum Institute where the subject of 8 that publication was PCBs? 9 MR. PREUSS: Let me clarify. Are 1 0 you talking about reviewed in an editorial 1 1 sense or just glanced at them or read 1 2 them? 13 MR. TALLON: I'm talking about 1 4 reviewed in an editorial sense. 1 8 A . PCBs, no. 1 6 Q. Now, you testified a moment ago 1 7 thal you participated in drafting 1 8 publications for other organizations. Did 1 9 you participate in drafting publications 2 0 for the Chemical Manufacturers Association? 2 1 A . Yes. 2 2 Q. Did any of the publications in 2 3 which you participated in drafting touch on 2 4 o 7 e u ii c e r n PCBs? 2 5 A . No. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 34 HARTOLDMONOQ25298 1 Q. Did you participate in preparing 2 p u b 1 ications, that is to say. d r a f t i n g 3 p u b 1 ications for the National D r i n k i n g 4 Wo 1 < i Council where the topic or sub j e c t of 5 that publicat ion was PCBs? 6 A . N r. . 'ilic National Drinking Water 7 C o unc i 1 was an advisory council to f h o 8 d i T C Cl Of o f the agency itself, and to the 9 Congre s s 1 0 Q W h .i cl: agency are you referring 1 1 t o ? 0 SHA ? 1 2 A . N o . The pollution agency. Damn 1 3 i t , what the hell -- 1 4 Q 'J' h e F1PA? 1 5 A . Y o s , EPA. 1 6 Q When were you appointed to the 1 7 National Drinking Water Council for 1: h e 1 8 tiisi lime? 19 A . Oh, gosh. '71, '72. And I served 2 0 for one year. I was one of the originals 2 1 and T had the one year term and they 2 2 reappointed me for three additional years. 2 3 Q. By whom were you appointed? 2 4 A. The secretary of EPA, the 2 b director, who was the assistant secretary (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 35 HARTOLDMONOQ25299 1 of then Health Education and Welfare. 2 Q. At any time during your service on 3 the National Drinking Water Council did the 4 business of that council touch on or 5 concern PCBs? 6 A. Only in an ancillary sense, if at 7 all. I don't recall any direct discussions 8 concerning PCBs. 9 Q. Do you have an understanding as to 1 0 how you were selected for nomination to 1 1 t. h a l. council? 1 2 A. Two of the organizations I was 1 3 members of put my name on there. The ] 4 secretary, assistant secretary, director 1 5 picked me out of the list. 1 6 Q. Just let me do one cleanup 1 7 question. Mr. Garrett, do you have any 1 8 recollection of participating in the 1 9 drafting of any publication by any 2 0 organization where that publication touched 2 1 on or related to PCBs? 22 MR. PREUSS: Other than the 2 3 Industrial Hygiene Society? 24 MR. TALLON: Other than what we 2 5 have discussed thus far. |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 36 HARTOLDMON0025300 1 A. I've worked with groups that did 2 documentation for agencies that did -- the 3 agency itself may have published on PCBs. 4 T did not participate in it, except for 5 one. 6 Q. When you say you worked with 7 groups, which groups are you referring to? a A. We've been discussing it. The MCA 9 then, now CMA - - I don't know why they ] 0 t < > v r r s e d it, MCA had such a rotten 1 1 reputation, I guess -- published all of 1 2 these MCA guides and we helped in that. 1 3 Also helped publish, write things that went ] 4 from the MCA in their efforts to discuss 1 5 with Congress. These are all lobbying 1 6 operations, you know this. And in the 1 7 technical groups, i-n-e luditig--t h-e~-------- 1 8 including the A -I-J , the academy, the safety 1 9 council, I've worked on publications for 2 0 them that are purely a technical base for 2 1 -- that would not necessarily be for 2 2 lobbying or anything else, it would be for 2 3 publications they published one place or 2 4 another for the help of safety and health 2 5 professionals. And the book on management |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 37 HARTOLDMON0025301 1 the same way, it was published at the 2 request of a number of people from the AIHA 3 that needed to be done and we did it. 4 Q . Just referring to the Chemical 5 Manufacturers Association for just a 6 moment, I take it that that organization 7 from time to time discussed pending 8 legislation with representatives of the 9 Congress? 10 MR. PREUSS: Are you asking does 1 1 he have personal knowledge of that? 12 MR. TALLON: I'm asking. 1 3 A . Yes, I do. 1 4 Q . And, in fact. in your answer of 1 5 moment ago I think you referred to it as 1 6 lobbying, correct? 1 7 A. Yes. 1 8 Q . Did you ever directlyparticipate 1 9 in any lobbying activities in connection 2 0 with the Chemical Manufacturers 2 1 Association? 22 A. Withagency people, not with 2 3 elected officials. So it's kind of 2 4 secondary lobbying, if you know what I 2 5 mean. i 10 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 38 HARTOLDMON0025302 1 Q When you refer to agency people 2 are you referring to representatives of the 3 Environmental Protection Agency? 4 A . API - - I m e a n , EPA, 0 S H A r N I 0 S H . 5 Oddly enough, I did P art i c i p a t e w i t h the 6 p o 1 1 u t ion, n a t i o n a 1 P ollution o r g a n i z a t i o n 7 in dir ect lobby i n g w i t h some p e o p 1 e for 8 some pollution laws. 9 Q. Did any of your direct experience 1 0 in discussing legislation or proposed 1 1 regulations with the EPA touch on or 1 2 concern PCBs? 1 3 A. Not in a direct sense. 1 4 Q. Did it do so in an indirect sense? 1 5 A. Pollution, water pollutants. What 1 6 is a water pollutant. It means anything 1 7 that could get in the water. 1 8 Q. And did you discuss those lobbying 1 9 efforts with any of your colleagues at 2 0 Monsanto? 2 1 A. Yes, if they wished toknow. And 2 2 those that needed to know I discussed it 2 3 with, yes. 2 4 Q. Just to be clear, was the effort 2 5 that you were engaged in an effort in |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 39 HARTOLDMON0025303 I 1 concert with the Chemical Manufacturers 2 Associate on? 3 MR. PREUSS: I object to the form 4 of the question, as to what you mean by in 5 concert. 6 A. It was a subcommittee of a 7 committee of that organization that did the 8 work and presented the technical data 9 obtained . 1 0 MR. TALLON: What was the 1 1 subcommittee? 1 2 A. It would have been an ad hoc 1 3 subcommittee, many times appointed from the 1 4 major committee, which is the chemical 1 5 advisory committee to that organization. 1 6 Q. What was the purpose for which you 1 7 were so engaged in discussions with the 1 8 EPA? 1 9 A. From the day I joined Monsanto's 2 0 health department to today, these 2 1 organizations that built the technical 2 2 backing for all the pollution laws and 2 3 health related laws, largely, that are on 2 4 the books in any agency of the Federal 2 8 Government, because when we started there GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 40 HARTOLDMON0025304 1 were virtually no legislation connected 2 with specifics. 3 MR. PREUSS: You've answered the 4 question, sir. 5 MR. TALLON: I think you may have 6 interrupted him. May I have the answer 7 b ci r l< V 8 (The requested portion of the 9 record read by the reporter). 1 0 MR. TALLON: Let me just be clear, 1 1 Mr. Garrett. What was the purpose of your 1 2 effort? What were you attempting to do? 1 3 A. You may not believe this, but I 1 4 was attempting to write decent -- get the 1 5 background for decent pollution laws and 1 6 decent health related laws in this 1 7 country. All people in my business in 1 8 every company, regardless of what they 1 9 made, were trying to do the same thing. 2 0 Q. And for the record, what do you 2 1 mean when you use the word decent in that 2 2 context? 2 3 A. When I got in the Water Pollution 2 4 Control Federation, the federal pollution 2 5 law said it was against the law to pollute, |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 41 HARTOLDMON0025305 1 and that's all. 2 Q . And -- 3 A . And in the next 50 year s w e have 4 been def ining pollut e . And the dir e c t i o n 5 some of these things were t a king w a s 6 alarming in the sens e that w ell. w e 're no t 7 going to have any ch e m i c a 1 s put i n the 8 rivers . You know, I mean, 1 e t ' s b e 9 perfectly frank with o u r s e 1 v e s , the average 1 0 American Congres sman , d i s t r e s s i n g 1 y so, .i s 1 J probably an attorney that ha s v e r y little 1 2 technical backing and information 1 3 concerning pollution control, pollution 1 4 treatment, chemicals or anything else, so 1 5 it was our job, and encouraged by these 1 6 organizations, to try to get this job done 1 7 with some responsibility. 1 8 Q. Did you ever personally 1 9 participate in discussions with 2 0 representatives of a government agency 2 1 where the subject of the discussions was 2 2 PCBs? 2 3 A . Specifically, I don' t recall . 2 4 Q Were you ever part o f a w o r k i 2 b o r organization that wa s dealing GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 42 HARTOLDMON0025306 1 directly with a federal or state agency 2 whore the specific topic to be discussed 3 was PCBs? 4 A . No . b Q. Were you ever part of a group that 6 discussed the issue of PCBs with federal 7 legislators. Senators or Congressmen? 8 A. I don't recall. I really don't 9 recall . 1 0 Q M r . Garrett, you i ndicated that 1 1 you recei v e d your Master's Degree in 1949? 1 2 A . Yes. 1 3 Q Did you, after rec eiving your 1 4 Master ' s Degree, begin work in your presen 1 5 field? 1 6 A . No. 1 7 Q . What did you do after you re c e i v e d 1 8 your Master's Degree for e m p 1 o y m e n t ? 1 9 A . I be came a chemi s t . Which I w a s a 2 0 chemi s t , an i norganic phy s i c a 1 c h e m i s t 2 1 Tonkin g for a job, had a wife and two k i d s , 2 2 all of which were hungry after four y ear s 2 3 of col lege, I went on the G . I . Bill, and I 2 4 walked to the gate at Mon santo ' s plan t i n 2 b Texas City, T exas and the y hired me a s a |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 43 HARTOLDMON0025307 1 research chemist. 2 Q What year was that? 3 A . 1 9 5 0., January 12, 1950, my 4 birthday . 5 Q. Starting with your position as a 6 chemist in Texas City, Texas, could you 7 please take me through your employment with 8 Monsanto from January 12, 1950 until you 9 rt-. liicd? And when I say take me through, I 1 0 mean could you please tell me what 1 1 positions you held and for what periods of 1 2 time you held them, as best you can? 1 3 A. Roughly. I was a research 1 4 chemist, and that was my title. And I 1 5 think I was Research Chemist 3 by their 1 6 salary schedules, that's all I know. It's 1 7 st. tcinge about things, how they've evolved. 1 8 More people are interested in their salary 1 9 levels and so forth today than we were in 2 0 those days after the war. All we needed 2 1 was a job . I think a lot of people are i n 2 2 the s a m e boat today . And as you can ea s i iy 2 3 i m a g i n e , my f ie1d was r a d i ation chemist r y f 2 4 and I was g o i n g into a laboratory that' s 2 b field was polymeric monomers, an organi c GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI HARTOLDMON0025308 1 chemistry field. So I to a certain 2 degree, represented an odd sort of 3 individual in this lab. So I inherited all fl the odd jobs. And one of them had to do 5 with determining what treatment we would 6 apply to an acrylonitrile process that was 7 planned for the Texas City plant, the old 8 Texas division of Monsanto's plant. And I 9 did -- I got mixed up in how do you do ] 0 this. I went to the state. 11 MR. PREUSS: Mr. Garrett, I think 1 2 fie wants to know how long you were research 1 3 chemist, from what year to what year, what 1 4 you did, your job position from what year 1 5 to what year. 1 6 A. I got pretty proficient in 1 7 pollution, and the medical department in 1 8 St. Louis found it out, and when they were 1 9 ordered to take over this job of keeping 2 0 the plants advised in connection with 2 1 pollution control, they came down to Texas 2 2 City and offered me a chance to make more 2 3 money, so I came to St. Louis as an 2 4 industrial hygienist. I never had seen 2 5 that term before, I did not know what it |GORE REPORTING COMPANY . ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 45 HARTOLDMON0025309 1 was. 2 Q And what year did you g o t o S t . 3 Louis as a n industrial hygienis t ? 4 A . ' 54 b M R . PREUSS: Do you wa n t t o take 6 it on up? 7 MR. TALLON: Yes, please. 8 A. I became manager in about '58 of 9 water pollution control in that section, 1 0 and then manager of industrial hygiene and ] 1 water pollution control, and then manager 1 2 of industrial hygiene, then director of ] 3 industrial hygiene. These are grade level 1 4 changes, as you can imagine. 1 5 Q. Can you relate when you became the 1 6 manager of industrial hygiene and water ] 7 pollution control? 1 8 A. What time, you mean what date? 19 Q. Yes. What year? 20 A. Oh, gosh. '62, I think, something 2 1 like that. 2 2 Q. Do you remember the year in which 2 3 you became the manager of industrial 2 4 hygiene? 2 b A. I really don't. [GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 46 HARTOLDMON0025310 1 Q. Do you remember the year in which 2 you b e c a me the director of industrial 3 hygi en e? A . That was probably 5 Q - Was director of i ndustrial hygiene 6 the last position you held at Monsanto? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q And what year did you retire from 9 active duty at Monsanto? 1 0 A. November1985. 1 1 Q. And since 1985 have you been a ] 2 consultant in private practice? 1 3 A . Yes. 1 4 Q . Since 1985 has any of the 1 5 consulting work that you have done been for 3 6 Monsanto? 1 7 A . Yes. 1 8 Q . Are you curr ently working for 1 9 Monsanto as a con suit ant? 2 0 A . Yes r I p r e s u me so. 2 1 Q . And I t a k e i t that if you act as a 2 2 consultant for M o n s a n to, Monsanto pays you 2 3 some salary o r f e e b a sed on your hours? 2 4 A . Yes. 2 8 Q. Can you estimate, or better yet. O 00 II |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 47 HARTOLDMON0025311 1 tell me how many projects you've worked on 2 for Mon santo since leaving Monsanto, 3 retirin g from Monsanto in 1985? 4 A . Six or seven. 5 Q And d o you plan t o be able to 6 consult for M o n s a n t o i n the future, if that 7 is p o s s i b 1 e ? 8 A . Consult with anybody who wants me. 9 yes. ] 0 Q . When you first went to St. Louis 1 1 in 1954 from Texas City, Texas, what 1 2. department were you in, if that is the 1 3 correct terminology? 1 4 A . Medical . 1 5 Q To whom did you report in 1954? 1 6 A . To Elmer P. Wheeler. 1 7 Q What was his title? ] 8 A . Assistant di rector. 1 9 Q Assistant di rector, medical? 2 0 A . Assistant di rector of the medical 2 1 department. He was not assistant medical 2 2 director, no. Assistant director of the 2 3 medical department. 2 4 Q. And at that time who was the 2 5 director of the medical department? [GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 48 HARTOLDMONOQ25312 1 A . D r . R . E . Kelly. 2 Q. Did you have anyone reporting to 3 you when you came to St. Louis? 4 A . No. 5 Q. When you became the manager of 6 water pollution control in approximately 7 1958, what department did you work with or 8 for? 9 A. Medical department. 1 0 Q. Was your position always within ] 1 i. he medical department through your 1 2 retirement? 1 3 A. Through the medical department and 1 4 its subsequent names. But the same thing, 1 5 same idea, same place, really. 1 6 Q. And did the name of the medical 1 7 department change from 1954 to 1985? 1 8 A . Yes. 1 9 Q. What was it called at various 2 0 points? 2 1 A. When I left it was called the 2 2 department of medicine and environmental 2 3 health . 2 4 Q. In 1954 did Mr. Wheeler have 2 5 others reporting to him as assistant |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 49 HARTOLDMON0025313 1 director of the medical department? 2 A . No. 3 Q. You were his only report? 4 A. I was his. e> Q Oka y . And d id Mr Wheeler report 6 to Mr. Kelly 7 7 A . Yes 8 Q Did Dr. Kelly hav e other reports 9 at that time , so far as y o u recall? 3 0 A . Yes . He had a ha 1 f time physician 1 1 and a m e d i c a 1 technic i a n a n d , of course, we 3 2 had two seer e t a r i e s . 1 3 Q Wer e the off ices o f your -- was 1 4 your office and the o f f i c e of Mr. Wheeler 1 5 and the o f f i c e of Dr. Kelly in the same 1 6 general area 7 1 7 A . Yes 3 8 Q And what b ui 1 d i n g or office 1 9 a d d r e s s was that? 2 0 A . The office b u i 1 d i ng downtown at 2 1 the Queeny plant. There is an eight story 2 2 building there that Monsanto had as its 2 3 original company office. 2 4 Q. Did the location of your offices 2 5 change between 1954 and 1985? G 0 R K REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 50 HARTOLDMON0025314 1 A. We moved from there to the new 2 office .structure in St. Louis County. 3 Q. When was that? 4 A. f n A Building of that new 5 structure, which was a multitude of 6 buildings. That was in 1957. No. Yes, it 7 was 1957, that's right. 8 Q . And was your office in that same 9 location in St. Louis County for the 1 0 balance of your career at Monsanto? 11 ' A. No. We moved -- they separated 12 - they separated the department and moved 1 3 most of the people to another building 1 4 temporarily and then they moved them back. 1 5 After I left they moved it back. 1 6 Q. How was the department separated? 1 7 A. The director and -- who was a 1 8 physician, stayed in one area. It was a 1 9 matter of just because of room and space 2 0 problems. And it's back together where it 2 1 belong s now. 2 2 Q . The director was in one area and 2 3 staff was in another? 2 4 A . Yes, 2 8 0 . Was your office near the office of |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 51 HARTOLDMONOQ25315 1 the director during that time? 2 A . No, it was in the other place. In 3 other words, they moved us over to another 4 biii 1 d i n g . h Q . During the time period when the 6 department was separated, was the director 7 alone and all of the staff elsewhere? 8 A. To a degree. And then he moved 9 over with us and then the whole thing moved 1 0 back after I retired. ] 1 Q. I take it from your description 1 2 that between 1954 and 1985 the medical 1 3 department grew in terms of the number of 1 4 people assigned to it? 1 5 A . Oh, my, yes. 1 6 Q When you became manager of water 1 7 p o 1 1 u t i on control in 1958 , to whom did you 1 8 report? 1 9 A . Elmer Wheeler. 2 0 Q And to whom did Mr. Wheeler 2 1 r e p o r 1. , if you recall? 2 2 A . Dr. Kelly. 2 3 Q When you became manager of water 2 4 pollution control in 1958, did Mr. Wheeler 2 5 have oilier reports to him? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 52 HARTOLDMONOQ25316 1 A. Yes. He had a toxicology man 2 Q. T'm sorry? 3 A . H e had a toxicologis I i ('!_>(> r 1. to 4 him. b n . W h o was that? 6 A . A d eceased gentleman n a m e d Ii u n t . 7 Dr . 1! ii [, 1 w ' 1 i i am Hunt. 8 Q And do you recall wh e n ?) r . H w n t 9 began w o r k a s a toxicologist r e p o r t i n g to 1 0 Mr. Wheel e r ? 1 1 A . T h a t had to have bee n s o m e t i m e i 1 2 the late 6 0 's, I would say. Mid to 1 a t e 13 ' 60 ' s . 1 4 Q. I think the question arose, what 1 5 reports did Mr. Wheeler have in 1958 when 1 6 you became director of water pollution 1 7 control. And just to clarify, was Dr. Hunt 1 8 w o r k i n g f or -- o r , rather, reporti n g t o 1 9 Mr. Wheel e r in 19 5 8 or did he not a r r i v e 2 0 until the late '60's ? 2 1 A . I can 't remember what time i t 2 2 was. Wh e t h e r he was there at that t i me, I 2 3 don't r e m ember . But I reported to h i m and 2 4 I had one man report i n g to me. 2 5 Q. And who was reporting to you? |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 53 HARTOLDMONOQ25317 1 A . A pollution e n g i n e e r . 2 Q Who was that? 3 A . Bruce W. Eley. 4 Q Is that E -- 1 -- Y? 5 A . I think E- 1 - e - y , I t h i n k . 6 Q Is Mr. Eley still 1 i v i n g? 7 A . Yes. 8 D Is he still e m p 1 o Y e d by Mon s a n t o ? 9 A . To the best of my k n o w 1 edge 1 0 Q When did Mr. Eley s t a r t w o r k i n g at 1 1 Monsanto for you, as best Y o u r e call ? 1 2 A . Not exactly. n o . 1 3 Q. When you became the manager o 1 4 industrial hygiene and water pollution 1 5 control in a p p r o x i mately 1962 , to whom 1 6 you report? 1 7 A. Elmer Wheeler, still. 1 8 Q - And did Mr. Wheel e r then still 1 9 report to Dr. Kelly? 2 0 A . Yes. 2 1 Q . At that time did Mr . Wheeler have 2 2 any other reports that you r e call? 2 3 A . Toxicologist and m y s elf. 2 4 Q - And when you b e c a m e the director 2 5 -- e x c u s e me, the ma n a g e r o f industrial |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 54 HARTOLDMONOQ25318 1 hygiene and water pollution control, did 2 you have anyone reporting to you? 3 A. Later on, yes. 4 Q . Who? 5 A. I had -- it would be better when 6 I became director. I had -- at that time 7 we hired some new ones. We had four 8 industrial hygienists and an assistant, who 9 was Mr. Eley. J 0 Q . Are you referring to the time in 1 1 1980 when you became the director of 1 2 industrial hygiene? 1 3 A. No. During the period between ] 4 that time and the time I was manager of 1 5 industrial hygiene the staff grew to four ] 6 hygienists and an assistant, which was Mr. 1 7 Eley, and three chemists in an industrial 1 8 hygiene laboratory. 1 9 Q. And did the four industrial 2 0 hygienists and the three chemists report to 2 1 you? 2 2 A . Yes. 2 3 Q. Do you remember the names of the 2 4 industrial hygienists? 2 5 A. Not -- I can tell you some of KJ 0 R E E K PORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 55 HARTOLDMONOQ25319 1 them, that's all. ?. Q . Can you please tell me those that 3 you recall? 4 A . ,1 r> } i i; !1 1 i, 11 a w , who is currently 5 operating that section. At the samo lime I 6 i nlir i i I im| I lie health records section, which 7 contained -- which was the computer 8 ope i .i I ion for healthrecords, and I had a . K* + pcuHs 9 manager managing each of t- h o s-e two v yy- o f fxxrt 1 0 that section, the hygiene and the pOsTf 1 1 hygiene chemistry n o c.t-i on-. Currently that 1 2 is not so, that is not the arrangement, and 1 3 currently I don't know the arrangement, 1 4 you'd have to ask somebody else. 1 5 Q. Who was the manager of the 1 6 chemists section? 1 7 A. Bob Peck, P-e-c-k. 1 8 Q. And do you remember during what 1 9 time period Mr. Peck served as manager of 2 0 that section? 2 1 A . H e was the r e when I 1 e ft. so I 2 2 don ' t know s i n c e t h e n 2 3 Q . But do you r e m e m b e r w h e n he c a m e 2 4 o n board? 2 8 A . N o , n<>! dl r e c 11 y . I d o n ' t -- I i i li i GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 56 HARTOLDMON0025320 1 don't remember. We brought him in fiom 2 D a y l 11 n , and I don't know when it was. 3 Q . And do you remember when M r . 4 H i n s h a w began work at Monsanto? 5 A . To be perfectly honest, no, I 6 don't, I can't remember exactly. Probably 7 late in '70, but I can't tell you any 8 better than that. 9 Q. Did the organization of your group 1 0 change at all from the time you became 1 1 manager of industrial hygiene through your 1 2 retirement as director of industrial 1 3 hygiene? ] 4 A. Became a little larger. We got 1 5 another chemist and a couple of additional ] 6 industrial hygienists, and I was spending a 1 7 lot of time with the health records group. 1 8 Q. Did you continue to report to Mr. 1 9 Wheeler until the time you retired? 2 0 A. Until the time he retired, yes. 2 1 Q . When was that? 2 2 A. Oh, gosh, '72, '3, '4, something 2 3 like that. Early to mid ' 7 0 ' s, that's the 2 4 best I can do. You'd have to ask his wife, 2 5 I guess. CORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 57 HARTOLDMONOQ25321 1 Q. And to whom did you report after 2 M r . Wheeler retired? 3 A. The medical director. 4 Q . Directly to the medical director? 5 A. Directly to the medical director. 6 Q . Who was that? 7 A. That was Dr. George Roush, 8 R - o - u-s - h , I believe is the way he spells 9 it. 1 0 Q. Did Dr. Roush replace Dr. Kelly as 1 1 m e d i cal director? 1 2 A . Yes. 1 3 Q. And do you recollect when Dr. 1 4 Kelly retired? 1 5 A . I hate t o say the late '70 ' s , but 1 6 I ' m going t o d o i t a g a i D , because I don't 1 7 know . N o , I don ' t know . 1 8 Q Have you seen Dr. Kelly since his 1 9 retirement or yours ? 2 0 A . Many times . 2 1 Q When was the last time you saw 2 2 him? 2 3 A. A funeral about three or four 2 4 months ago. 2 5 Q . Other than Mr. Wheeler, did you GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 58 HARTOLDMONOQ25322 1 ever ha v e any reporting obligation to 2 a n y o n e else? 3 A . Yes. 4 Q To w horn? 5 A . M r . Tom Evans. 6 Q And what was Mr . Evans' position 7 during the period you reported to him? 8 A. During the period that we reported 9 that Dr. Roush headed the thing, the 1 0 company interjected an additional 1 1 management layer, and Mr. Evans turned out ] 2 to be my boss. 1 3 Q. Approximate!y when did you begin 1 4 reporting to Mr. Evans? 1 8 A. Probably in the early 1 8 0 1 s or 1 6 late '70's. Very late ' 7 0 ' s, probably '78, 3 7 '79, '80, '81. 3 8 Q. In the 1 9 6 0 ' s did you have any 1 9 reporting obligations to a person other 2 0 than Mr. Wheeler? 2 1 A. It was a very small department 2 2 and, yes, my official boss was Mr. 2 3 Wheeler. The department had four men in 2 4 it, all of which were largely different 2 5 technical people. It was kind of operated GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 59 HARTOLDMONOQ25323 1 in a rather laissez-faire way. But as it 2 grew larger it had to have defined lines of 3 communication, so forth, and when Ifinally 4 retired there were so many people in the 5 medical system itself at Monsanto in 6 varying specialties that industrial hygiene 7 and computer records setup was a different 8 organization, and we were so big that these 9 people probably didn't know the people in 1 0 the toxicology section, for example. We 1 1 went from a room to a floor in 30 years. 3 2. Q. In referring to the health records 1 3 section, are you referring to health 1 4 7<; cords of Monsanto workers or health 1 5 records of others or both? 1 6 A. Monsanto workers. 1 7 Q. Did you ever have anyone working 3 8 foj you who had as their principal 1 9 responsibility addressing concerns rein l ed 2 0 to P C B s ? 2 1 A . No. 2 2 Q. Was there ever during your service 2 3 with Monsanto a person in the medical 2 4 department whose principal responsibility 2 5 was to deal with health issues or GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 60 HARTOLDMONOQ25324 1 environmental issues relating t o P C B s ? 2 A . No. 3 Q. During your service in the medical 4 department at Monsanto was there a person b who had as a portion of their 6 responsibility dealing with issues relating 7 to P C B s ? 8 A . T h e hygienist a s s i g n e d t o the 9 o r g a n i c c h e m i cals compan y b a c k when i t was 1 0 a d i vision o r company, y e s I t was one o f 1 1 his many jobs. 1 2 Q. Do you remember the name of the 1 3 hygienist assigned to the organic chemicals 1 4 division? 3 b A . They were a t one time or another 1 6 assigned to them. W e moved them a round. 1 7 They moved up, some of them left, we got 1 8 new ones and so forth. No, I don't. 1 9 Q. Did there come a time when, let's 2 0 say, legislative attention focused on 2 1 PCBs ? 22 MR. PREUSS: I'm going to object 2 3 to the vagueness. 2 4 A. There was a time when legislative 2 5 attention focused on organic chemicals, and GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 61 HARTOLDMONOQ25325 1 I think that part of that was PCBs. 2 MR. TALLON: At or before that 3 time was it the responsibility of anyone in 4 the -- of any particular individual in the 5 medical group to deal with questions 6 ielating to PCBs? 7 A. The hygienist assigned to the B organic division initially, and to the 9 chemical company ultimately. These are 1 0 organizational changes in Monsanto itself. 1 1 And the section that included the organic 1 2 manufacturing that the hygienist was 1 3 assigned, andit varied depending on who 1 4 was assigned to, the organic division. 15 Q. What was the formal name of the 1 6 division or department that had 1 7 responsibility fororganic chemicals during 1 8 the period that you worked for the medical 1 9 group? 2 0 A. Originally the organic division. 2 1 Later a series of names which is currently 2 2 the chemical -- the Monsanto Chemical 2 3 Company. 2 4 Q. Was there a separate management 2 5 structure for the organic division during GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOUR I 62 HARTOLDMONOQ25326 1 the time that you served in the medical 2 group? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And can you describe for me how 5 that division was managed? Was there a 6 president or vice-president, so forth? 7 A. There was a Corporate 8 Vice-President who was in charge of that 9 division. And I believe he was one of 1 0 four. 1 1 Q. One of four corporate 1 2 vice-presidents company-wide or one of four 1 3 in charge of the organic division? 1 4 A. Company-wide. 1 5 Q. And who was the Corporate 1 6 Vice-President in charge of the organic ] 7 division? 1 8 A. Oh, my stars, I have no idea, 1 9 there were so many different ones. 2. 0 Q. Do you remember any of them? 21 A. Their names escape me. The only 2 2 thing I know is the current president of 2 3 the whole damn mess and chairman of the 2 4 board of the mess was at one time t h 2 5 vice-pres i d e n t of the plastic s d i v i s (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 63 HARTOLDMONOQ25327 1 Q. Are you talking about today? 2 A. Today. Was at one tim e one of 3 those vice-presidents. It was a p r o c e d u r e 4 where they were board members, By the way, 5 when I first came to Monsanto, the d i v i sion 6 vice-presidents were board memb e r s , the y 7 are not now. 8 Q . When you say board mem bers., y o u 9 mean members of the board of di rectors o f 1 0 llie p u r i n l company? 1 .1 A . That's right. Voting m e in bi: r s o f ] 2 the- 11 < i : i! ! :! i I Cl'torS . 1 3 Q . Okay. Now, you've t a k e n in e ] 4 through the positions you held i n your 1 5 service in the medical departme n t f r o in 1 y 5 4 1 6 through your retirement. Can y o u pleas e 1 7 tell me what your duties were w hen you 1 8 first came to St. Louis as an i ndu stria 1 1 9 hygienist in 1954? 2 0 A. To take over the visit a t i o n to the 2 1 plants that required it, which were 2 2 primarily organic producing pla n t s , and t o 2 3 continue doing the work on poll u t i o n 2 4 control for the corporation, as the -- I 2 5 don't know how you put it, the town cri e r |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 64 HARTOLDMONOQ25328 1 on pollution control. 2 Q. What was the function of the town 3 crier on pollution control? 4 A . Trying to determine and bring to 5 the attention of the division people, their 6 staff, what they were looking at in 7 connection with treatment problems and 8 methods . 9 Q. Did you have responsibilities 1 0 other than plant visitation? 1 1 A. You know, with a small department, 1 2 I didn't do any physical exams, because I 1 3 wasn't a qualified physician, but I was 1 4 accused many times of having -- of having 1 5 Dr. Kelly take my license away from me. So 1 6 it was a small department at first, and I 1 7 answered Elmer's phone, he answered mine 1 8 and sometimes I even answered -- I even 1 9 answered Kelly's phone. 2 0 Q . You've indicated a couple of times 2 1 that the medical group was a small 2 2 department when you joined in 1954. Was it 2 3 small enough that you had direct contact 2 4 with Dr. Kelly? 2 5 A. Sure. His office was next to mine GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISS OUR I 65 HARTOLDMONOQ25329 1 and Elmer's was on the other side. 2 Q. And did that direct contact 3 continue throughout the '60' s and '70' s ? 0 A. Throughout the timehe was boss of 5 the medical department, whatever it was 6 called. And it had changed names from time 7 to time becaues other people wanted it to 8 be called the occupational medical 9 department and everything else. Dr. Kelly, 1 0 as the boss, kept very close and tight 1 1 liaison with his people, andbecause of the 1 2 transfer of information back and forth it 1 3 had to be that way. It still is that way, 1 4 except now by boxes. Industrial hygiene is 1 5 separate and industrial hygiene chemistry 1 6 and toxicology and all, they're all 1 7 separate groups, and the department is very ] 8 large now. 1 9 Q. In your answer when you referred 2 0 to boxes, you mean boxes on an 2 1 organizational chart? 2 2 A . Yes. 2 3 Q. During the time that Dr. Kelly was 2 4 the head of the department, did you have 2 5 any access to him directly? You didn't f f |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 66 HARTOLDMON0025330 1 have to go through Mr. Wheeler right? ?. A. No. I had access to him 3 directly. Now, officially, I went through 4 F: ] m e r , but by agreement with Elmer -- I had 5 never seen this kind of organization 6 before, I came out of the Army where the 7 Corporal spoke to the Sergeant in quiet 8 tones. I found with some work there that 9 i t was n e c e s s ary to do that. The 1 i a i son 1 0 was d i r e c t, the actual official 1 i n e o f 1 1 c o m m u n i c a t i o n w a s well establis h e d f m e t o 1 2 Elm e r to -- w e travel e d so f r e q u e n t 1 y and 1 3 s o much that i t was a 1 most -- i t w a s lucky ] 4 i f one p e r s on w a s t h e r e , much 1 ess t w o 1 5 And i t worked f i n e , t h e three o f u s w o r k e d 1 6 fine . 1 7 Q. You indica ted in an answer a 1 8 moment ag o that you r plant visitatio n was 1 9 primarily to organi c producing plant s . Can 2 0 you state the reaso n or reasons why it was 2 1 primarily to organi c producing plant s ? 2 2 A. Most of th e problems of the other 2 3 plants were mechani cal. Making fiber is a 2 4 mechanical problem, Making inorgani c 2 5 chemicals is the ro ck and gravel bus i n e s s . GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 67 HARTOLDMONOQ25331 1 Organic chemicals are a chemical business, 2 and they required the most attention. They 3 still do today. 4 Q . And what is the reason for that 5 degree of attention required? 6 A. They produce the vast number of 7 materials. They produce probably -- today, 8 probably 95 percent of Monsanto's products 9 are produced by the chemical company, in 1 0 actual differential products. The fiber 1 1 people make one thing, they make nylon 1 2 thread, and, you know, that process is a 1 3 fixed process. The old Monsanto inorganic ] 4 division made phosphate from ground rock in 1 5 furnaces. That's the old story, if you've 1 6 seen one phosphate furnace you've seen them 1 7 all. We went there and we maintained 1 8 liaison with them and knew the people and 1 9 raised cane with them if the need be. But 2 0 our main business was with organic 2 1 production, and it still is today. 2 2 Q. All right. After you became the 2 3 manager of water pollution control, did 2 4 your responsibilities change in any 2 5 fashion? |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 68 HARTOLDMONOQ25332 1 A . No . 2 Q. They remained the same? 3 A. That's right. 4 Q. Did you take on responsibility for 5 water pollution control or did you already 6 have it? 7 A. I already had it. 8 Q. What did you do in connection with 9 discharging your responsibilities in 1 0 connection with water pollution control? 1 1 A. Well, you saw the organization 1 2 that I was with, I kept track of where the 1 3 c h e m i c a 1 i n d u s t r y itself was in respect to 1 4 this. and kept t r a c k of some of the river ] Pi basins t h a t we we re work i n g on. because 1 6 these were the on e s into which we 1 7 ultimately were g o i n g to discharge whateve 1 8 p o 1 1 u t ion we did or d i d n ' t do. The Ohio 1 9 river. the Missis s i p p i R i v e r and some of 2 0 the co a s t a 1 areas , G a 1 v e s t o n Bay . I know 2 1 more a bout G a 1 v e s ton Bay than I need to 2 2 know. But I did it b e c a use we n e e d e d to. 2 3 Q . When you say k e p t track of river 2 4 basins, are you referring to studies of 2 5 pollutants? |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 69 HARTOLDMON0025333 1 We sampled tested fish tested 2 residue, the bottom mud. And believe me, 3 Galveston Bay has an interesting layer of 4 bottom mud. Very, very, very thick mud, 5 very deep mud, it's been there a long time, 6 and the soil from the Trinity Basin has 7 bled off into it very much. And we need to 8 know what was going on in that aquatic 9 environment and what affect we were having 1 0 on it, if any. 1 1 Q. For what purpose did you want to 1 2 have that information? 1 3 A. Because we had to have it. 1 4 Q . What was the reason you had to 1 5 h a v v it? 1 6 A Because it was good man a g e m e n t 17 practi c e . And M o n s a n t o produced -- did it 1 8 before they were fo reed to. But they 1 9 didn't d o it becaus e t h e y were f orced to. 2 0 they d i d it because the y wanted to do it. 2 1 Q Did what. keep ing track ? 2 2 A Kept track and treated their 2 3 wastes We treated the waste at Texas City 2 4 when I w a s there. 2 5 Q And, just brie fly, what are you |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 70 HARTOLDMON0025334 1 referring to by treating waste at Texas 2 City? 3 A . We treated the material s , did 4 d i d n '' t discharge them t o the bay. 5 Q What treatment was e f f e c t u a t e d 6 then? 7 A. He burned them, incinerated them, 8 recycled them to the degree that -- and 9 sent our -- the plant wastes themselves, 1 0 this is the laboratory waste, to the city 1 1 waste treatment plant. We built a pipeline 1 2 to them, paid them to treat our sewerage. 13 Now , f' P ' ' 1 L y proud o f M o n s a n t o , so don ' t 1 4 jab m e about that. We d o w h a t w e think i s 1 5 p r o p c r n n d n ecessary t o m a i n t a i n p roper 1 6 m a n a g e m e n t , and we did i t the n and we do i t 1 7 now. 1 Q. Did your position, or, rather, 1 9 your responsibilities change when you 2 0 changed position to manager of industrial 2 1 hygiene and water pollution control? 2 2 A. Yes. Because now we're beginning 2 3 to get people. I got -- 2 4 Q . Staff? 2 5 A. I got a people. |G 0 R K REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 71 HARTOLDMON0025335 1 Q Okay. 2 A . And 1 worked the hell out o f h i m , 3 I ha t e to say. And he became - - h o c a m e 4 5 r) hr- wan a graduate with a Mas t e r ' s 5 Degr e e in environmental enginee ring ! a J> d I 6 t U 1 II r (1 him into an industrial hygie n i S t 7 But -- to a degree. But he st i 1 1 w a s a 8 fiis 1 r las 5; pollution engineer as w e 1 1. 9 And h e helped. And because of our 1 0 mull i 1' 1 icily in hats he became a h y g i e n i s t 1 1 and s t i 11 retained his -- some 1 2. r e p o n ib.il.ity for pollution co n t r o 1 . 1 3 Q Are you referring to M r . E 1 e y? 1 4 A . T am. 1 5 Q In addition to having s u p e r v i s o r y 1 6 resp o n s ibilities over Mr. Eley, did y o u r 1 7 own f u n ction or responsibilitie s c h a n ge 1 8 when you became manager of indu stri a 1 1 9 h y g i e n e and water pollution con t r o 1 7 2 0 A . Other than managing Mr . E 1 e y a n d 2 1 s e p a rat ing the work that was ne e d e d r n o 2 2 Q Did your responsibilit i e s o r 2 3 f u n c t i o n change when you became man a g e r o f 2 4 i n d u s t r ial hygiene? 2 b A. By this time I had a couple of [GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 72 HARTOLDMONOQ25336 1 additional hygienists, and it looked like 2- lei me -- we were working two sides of 3 the street in a way. And it came to the 4 p O i lit f r) 11 d I knew it w a s c o m i n g , that it 5 had to s e p a rate, and i t s e p a r a t e d . And I 6 been me i n d u strial hyg i e n e o n 1 y an d 7 p o 1 1 u t ion c ontrol wen t to the eng ineering 8 d e p a t l in e n t , where it b e longed , or iginally r 9 actually. 1 0 Q . W h c ii was that? When did that 1 1 split occur 1 2 A . i 1 had to be s o m e t i m e in the 1 3 '70's. And I c o u 1 d n ' t tell y o u . Aetna 1 1 Y , 1 4 T w a ;; y i v c ii a choice by the v ice- pres iden t , 1 5 do you want one or do you want t h e o t h e r . 1 6 Q . W h ich vice-pre s i d e n t are you 1 7 referring to? 1 8 A. That would be at the time -- oh, 1 9 gosh, I can't remember. Oh, it was 2 0 probably Throdahl. Monte Throdahl. 2 1 Q. How do you spell Mr. -- 2 2 A. M-o-n-t-i, I think, or M-o-n-t-e. 2 3 And he said to me do you want pollution 2 4 control or do you want industrial hygiene, 2 5 we got to separate it, it's getting to be |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 73 HARTOLDMON0025337 1 too big a job and I chose industrial 2 hygiene because that was the biggest 3 challenge. Q . Just one thing, Mr. Garrett, I 5 didn't get the spelling of Monte's last 6 T) a in r . "/ A . T-h-r-o-d-a-h-1, I think. 8 Q. Was Mr. Throdahl responsible for 9 your department or for you? 1 0 A. Yes. He was responsible for the 1 1 medical department and all of its many 1 2 environs at the time. 1 3 Q. What time was that? You said that 1 4 was in the '70's? 1 5 A . Yes. 1 6 Q When you started a t M o n s a n 1 7 1954, do you know to whom D r , Kelly 1 8 7' e ported? 1 9 A. There was no operational chart 2 0 that showed where he reported. But he 2 1 reported to the old man, he reported to Mr. 2 2 Queeny, actually, if you want to know the 23 t ru t h . 2 4 Q. You're referring to the Chief 2 5 Executive of Monsanto? |G O R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 74 HARTOLDMONOQ25338 1 A . Yes. T h e owner's s o n . 2 Q . And did Dr. Kelly c o n t i n u e that 3 r e 1 a tionship? 4 A . No. The re was an o f f i c i a 1 5 o r g a nization put in and t h < i i w . i a 6 V 5 re p lit: 'id e 71 t in charge of p o r t i o n s of the 7 s t a f f, and Dr . Kelly reporte d to that 8 vice - pres iden t . And there w ere a n u m b e r of 9 t h o s e through the years. Mr . T h r o d a h 1 , b y 1 0 the way, was one of them at one t i m e . 1 1 Q. When did the organi z a t i o n a 1 1 2 s t r u cture cha nge such that Dr. Ke 1 1 y w a s 1 3 repo rting to a v i ce-presiden t ? 1 4 A . When M r . Queeny qui t and r e t i r e d 1 5 from the company. active par ticipation i n 1 6 the company. 1 7 Q. Approximately when was that? 1 8 A . Oh, gosh , I don't k now. It ha d to ] 9 b O i n the 1 7 0 1 s sometime. 2 0 Q. Do you remember who was the first 2 1 vie e> -president to whom Dr. Kelly had 2 2 repo rting responsibility? 23 A . No, I don't remember. And there 2 4 was a whole string of them, so -- 2 b Q. Did you ever work with a gentleman bo RE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 75 HARTOLDMONOQ25339 1 by the name of Keller? 2 A . Bob Kelle r ? 3 Q Yes. 4 A . Yes. b Q And what was Mr. Keller's t i t 1 e 6 when you worked wi t h him? 7 A . Research chemist, senior re search 8 c h e m i s t and then s ection leader, I b e 1 i e v e , 9 in the research de partment when I kn e w him. 1 0 Q And you i nteracted with Mr. Keller 1 1 in s o m e way in you r job? 1 2 A . And many other people. 1 3 Q And many other people? 1 4 A . Many othe r people. 1 5 Q Sure. Ho w did you interact with 1 6 M r . Kell e r ? 1 7 A . He was a research chemist i n 1 8 char ge of certain materials, researc h on a 1 9 cert a i n line of or ganic materials, a n d we 2 0 i n t e rfaced with hi m and half a dozen others 2 1 for the same reaso n . 2 2 Q Did Mr. - - I'm sorry, 2 3 A . I can't r ecall their names. Once 2 4 in a w h i 1 e I will. 2 5 Q Did Mr. K eller have any COKE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MIS SOUR I 76 HARTOLDMON0025340 1 responsibility for research relating to 2 PCBs ? 3 A , Fluids, I think, yes 4 Q . Did you ever interac t with M r . 5 Keller as related to research into P C B s 6 fluids ? 7 A . Probably many times. 8 Specifically, I related to so many, I don't 9 know whether I related to him any more than 1 0 anybody else. By the way, it's Dr. Keller. 1 1 Q. Is it Dr. Keller? 1 2 A. Yes, indeed. 13 Q. You reminded me of something. Dr. 1 4 Kelly is a medical doctor? 1 5 A . Yes. 1 6 Q. And Dr. Keller - 1 7 A. Is a Ph.D chemist. 1 8 Q. I take it Dr. Keller did not 1 9 report to you? 2 0 A . No. 2 1 Q Do you know to whom h e d i d report? 2 2 A . Somebody in the -- i n t h a t 2 3 division'' s research group. And, f rankly, I 2 4 do not know. 2 3 Q. Was Dr. Keller an employee of or IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 77 HARTOLDMONOQ25341 1 associated with the organic chemicals 2 division? 3 A . Their research department, yes. 4 Q. Understanding that you interacted 5 willi a lot of people in your career, do you 6 have any particular recollection of 7 interacting with Dr. Keller on an issue 8 related to PCBs in fluids? 9 A. Probably any number of times, but 1 0 I don't recall the subjects specifically. 1 1 Probably on f1u i 1 2 that was his b a 1 1 3 specifically, no 1 4 Q Did you ] 5 R ,i chard? 1 6 A . Yes. 1 7 Q And -- 1 8 A . Bill R i 1 9 yes. 2 0 Q Dll r i ng 2 1 with Dr. Richard 2 2 A . He was 2 3 believe. Now, y 2 4 find out from t h 2 5 kind of command structure they had. They GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 78 HARTOLDMON0025342 1 changed it quite frequently and I don't 2 know. 3 MR. PREUSS : Just answer his 4 question. 8 A . But Bill Richard was a research 6 chemist with the organic division when I 7 knew him. 8 MR. TALLON : Was Dr. Richard a 9 contemporary of Dr. Keller? 10 A. Pretty much. Pretty much. 1 1 Q. Did they hold the same position at 1 2. -- were they in the same group? 1 3 A. Structurally, I think so. 1 4 MR. PREUSS: You mean parallel 1 5 positions? 1 6 MR. TALLON: Yes. 1 7 A. Parallel, structurally, I think 18 so . 1 9 Q How did Dr. Richard' s posit ion 2 0 differ f r om Dr. Kell e r ' s p o s i t i o n ? 2 ]. A . Bill had -- I think he had a 2 2 certain P art of the organic c h e m i c a 1 s 2 3 pro cessing setup with him, and we dealt 2 4 with him because he did. He was the one 2 8 doing the research in organic chemicals. IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 79 HARTOLDMON0025343 1 Q. How does that differ from Dr. 2 Keller's responsibility? 3 A. No difference at all, other than 4 Keller did the same thi n g and both o f them 5 had groups that special i z e d i n s p e c i f i c 6 organic che micals. And I can ' t tell you 7 which ones did which. 8 Q. Did you ever interact with Dr. 9 Richard on the subject of PCBs? 1 0 A. Probably. But I cannot recall it 1 1 now. 1 2 Q. Do you know whether Dr. Richard 1 3 had any role in con n e c t i o n with researching 1 4 or anal y z i n g PCBs? 1 5 A . No . I don ' t know specifica1ly. 1 6 no. It would be wrong to say anything, I 1 7 don't know specifically. 1 8 Q. Are you aware of work that Dr. 1 9 Richard did that related to PCBs? 2 0 A. Probably. I don't remember 2 1 specifically, again. But I dealt with 2 2 him. But I dealt with a dozen others. 2 3 Q During your career at Monsanto did 2. 4 r v o f work wi th a Mr. Tucker ? 2 5 A . Tucker? I don't roc a] l . |G 0 R B REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 80 HARTOLDMONOQ25344 1 Q . During your career a t M o n santo 2 M 7 . 7; 1 ' e t t , did you ever ha v e o c c a s i o n 3 study or conside r the toxici ty o f PCBs? 4 A . Yes. 5 Q. And when, to the best of your 6 recollection, was the first occasion that / you had occasion to consider PCB toxicity? 8 A. Probably the first day I arrived 9 in St. Louis, because it was one of the 1 0 organic chemical sections. 1 1 Q. Were you aware when you were 1 2 working in Texas City that Monsanto 1 3 manufactured and sold products that 1 4 included PCBs as a constituent element? ] 8 A . No. 1 6 Q. Did you become aware of that fact 1 7 you moved to St. Louis? ] a A . Yes. 1 9 Q And how did you become aware o f 2 0 fact , as best you recall t o d a y ? 2 1 A . Elmer Wheeler took me over to the 2 2 research department, which was in the old 2 3 building downtown, and introduced me to a 2 4 whole host of research people in charge of 2 h differentparts of the organic chemicals |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 81 HARTOLDMONOQ25345 1 group. And one of them was the fluids 2 group. They were for everything -- you can 3 imagine, we manufactured organic chemicals 4 of 50 different varieties. And those 5 peoplemanaged research sectionscovering 6 those 50 or more sections in organic 7 chemical processing. 8 Q. Was there a specific fluids group 9 when you arrived in St. Louis in 1958? 10 A. I think so. I think it was -- 1 1 they called it the fluids group. Now, it 3 2 may have had two people in it. And at one 1 3 time it may have had one person in it, I 1 4 don't know. But it was known as the fluid 1 5 group. 1 6 Q. Did that group continue in 1 7 existence during the entire course of your 1 8 c. a r o o r at Monsanto? 1 9 A. Idon't know. 2 0 Q. Did that group continue in 2 1 existence at least through the ' 7 0 ' s ? 2 2 A. To the best of my knowledge, it 2 3 did. I'm not aware of exactly when it 2 4 appeared or disappeared, if it did either. 2 5 Q. Do you recall the names of anyone |G0RE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 82 HARTOLDMONOQ25346 1 who worked in the fluids group during the 2 time that you were with Monsanto? 3 A . There was a Ph.D chemist that died 4 that had some of the original patents, and 5 I knew him briefly. And I don't think he 6 headed that group. I don't think he wanted 7 to h e a d anything, I t h i n k he -- I don' t 8 think he wanted to head anything. H e was a 9 c h e m i s t that wanted t o work in the lab 1 0 And he died early i n my career at S t . 1 1 Louis. 1 2 Q. Are you able, as you sit h ere 1 3 today, to recollect the n ames of an y o n e who 1 4 was in that group during the course of your 1 5 career at Monsanto? 16 A. No. I would be -- I knew so many 1 7 of those organic chemical res earch people 1 8 and they changed around a lot, and it would 1 9 be impossible to do that, It would b e 2 0 impossible to trace it. If you ask e d 2 1 somebody else how to trac e my caree r , how 2 2 you'd ever find it all ou t, I don't know. 2 3 No, I do not know. 24 Q. Fair enough. I ' m just won d e r i n g 2 5 if, as you sit here today , you reme m b e r the I IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 83 HARTOLDMON0025347 1 name of anyone whom you identified with 2 that group? 3 A . No. 4 Q. I asked you, to start this line of 5 questioning, whether you had ever had 6 occasion to consider or study the toxicity 7 of PCBs, and you indicated that probably 8 you did on the first day you arrived in St. 9 Louis. Are you referring to a general ] 0 responsibility or a specific focus on PCBs? 1 1 A. I met a contract -- we had a 1 2 small lab that did work for us, and I met 1 3 that gentleman. I can't remember his ] 4 name. He, by the way, is also dead. And 1 5 he -- I was .introduced to him on the ] 6 premise that that was where they did the 1 7 screening, toxicology screening tests, the 1 8 early acute screening tests. And we -- at 1 9 some times we tested materials that were to 2 0 bo added t o fluids in the flu id group. 2 1 Q D o you remember the name of the 2 2 lab? 23 A . No . 2 4 Q Was it Industrial Bi o t e s t ? 2 5 A . Ini tially, no. But, ultimately IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 84 HARTOLDMONOQ25348 1 that was the name of it. 2 Q. Was the small lab that you did 3 work with when you first started a 4 predecessor to Industrial Biotest? 5 MR. PREUSS: I'm going to object 6 to Ihe form of the question. 7 A. I don't know. 8 MR. TALLON: The reason I asked 9 you that question, Mr. Garrett, was that ] 0 yon .aid in your answer eventually it 1 1 became Industrial Biotest, and I'm ] 2 wondering whether -- 1 3 A. Our dealings became with 1 4 Industrial Biotest. 1 5 Q. I see. And approximately when did 1 6 thdI contact initiate, as best you recall? 1 7 A. Sometime in the early ' 7 0 ' s or 1 8 laic '8()'s, I would assume. But I can't 1 9 say. That really is a guess, and I hate to 2 0 guess. 2 1 Q. Okay. In what way did the -- 2 2 your introduction to this small lab that 2 3 did the work on toxicology tests relate to 2 4 the toxicology of PCBs? 2 b A. If any basic tox screening was IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 85 1 HARTOLDMONOQ25349 1 done o n f 1 uid mater i a 1 s , the Y w o u 1 d have 2 d o lie i t i n that per i o d of t i m e 3 Q I want to f o c u s o n t h a t tim e 4 period when you first came to St. Louis 5 from Texas City. When you first came to 6 Texas City were you aware, asa chemist, 7 that there was such a thing as a 8 polychlorinated biphenyl? 9 A. Probably not. Chemically, 1 0 probably not. 1 1 Q. In your position as an industrial 1 2 hygienist when first you came to St. Louis, ]. 3 did you discuss issues related to 1 4 toxicology of PCBs with Dr. Kelly? 1 8 A. It would have been more likely the 1 6 other way around. 1 7 Q. Meaning that he would have 1 8 commented to you? 19 A. Yes. On most of the materials 2 0 that we handled in the plant I was briefed 2 1 by Kelly or Wheeler or both connected with 2 2 those materials that we felt had been 2 3 t e s ted and we had s o m e standards on. and 2 4 t h o s e that we felt were hazardous. That 2 5 was m y job. i n d u s t r i a 1 hygiene. (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 86 HARTOLDMON0025350 1 Q. In your answer of a moment ago you 2 said that you were briefed on chemicals 3 that we had, I'm using your term, I think, 4 we had some standards on and some that were 5 hazardous. Does that describe two 6 different groups, one group with standards 7 and one group that was hazardous? A/rcev 8 A . Not necessarily. I was -h_r might--u_p_ cdt 9 Texas City, I was an inorganic physical 1 0 chemist in an organic lab in Texas City, I Uork, 1 1 had done some lab^on pollution control and 1 2 fish toxicity for the production facilities 1 3 for acrylonitrile, and that was the old p/mf 1 4 osih-o-p production facilities. I didn't know 1 5 a n y t h i n g about what Monsanto made. and 1 6 was b r ie f e d by Elmer and/or Kelly i n tin /3 1 7 ^ U 11 11 C L x o ru the^r\ ti n qA ijl kn ey sent me out +Li rUs 1 rs 1 8 plants to look at the exposures of our 1 9 workers to those materials, and to make 2 0 comments to the plant and to write a report 2 1 to Dr. Kelly. And that was where I learned 2 2 about what was made where. And pieces and 2 3 bits of those fluids were made in different kj/hat 2 4 plants . -ft-n-d- chat ' s inhere I was told. 2 5 Q When first you came to St. Louis GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 87 HARTOLDMONOQ25351 1 from Texas City in 1958, were there any 2 Monsanto products including PCBs for which 3 you had standards, to use your term? 4 A . There were in the limited, limited 5 industrial hygiene toxicology literature at 6 thetime some recommendations to bemade, 7 and there were a set of recommendations for 8 a nun.'' . r iricals that had been made by 9 a University of Michigan professor I. hat was 1 0 published by them, and we had copies of 1 1 thes There also were some materials from 1 2 the API on chemicals involved in a 1 3 petroleum refining business that were 1 4 available in API data sheets. And that's 1 5 what we used as our beginning point. And 1 6 we manufactured many materials that fitted 1 7 those individual standards. 1 8 Q. When you're using the term 1 9 standards, for the sake of clarity, how are 2 0 you using that term? 2 1 A. If the material used benzene in 2 2 its production, and Monsanto is a great 2 3 user of benzene, we knew approximately 2 4 about the acute toxicity and a good deal 2 5 about the chronic toxicity of benzene. And |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 88 HARTOLDMON0025352 t ' 3 , . . iii ; c a 1 A ClAsXD(Uj2rf / &vn , the MCA, the . r ; he C M A and the API had data 3 sheets on benzene. And there were methods 4 to I o:, l for it. Some pretty cumbersome. 5 But we did tests for it to make sure our 6 people were not being exposed to excessive 7 amounts of benzene. For example, toluene, 8 there were some standards on that. Now, 9 you get into some of the fancy babies, and, 3 0 no, lhere were not. There are now, but 1 1 there weren't then. 3 2 Q. When you're referring to 1 3 standards, then is it fair to say that 3 4 you're referring to a degree of exposure or 1 5 contact beyond which exposure or contact is 1 6 not recommended? 1 7 A. That is correct. 3 8 Q. And when you're referring to acute 1 9 toxicity, are you referring to toxicity 2 0 with an immediate effect if the exposure is 2 1 above a certain level? 22 A. That's what acute means. Now, the 2 3 material toxicity we had was large largely 2 4 acute. There was, however, a lot of 2 5 chronic work that had been done on some GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 89 HARTOLDMONOQ25353 1 materials such as benzene and lead and 2 mercury and t-h-e-g-e--trtrir-frg-s . We knew these P'panlnjr' 3 and they were 4 s~t a-n d a-r d s . b Q. And it's fair to say that when you 6 refer to chronic toxicity in your answer 7 you're referringto toxicity as a result of 8 exposure over aperiod of time? 9 A. Long term, that's right. And 1 0 these also met certain toxicological ] 1 parameters of the day. Chronic toxicity to 1 2 them meant certain types of toxic studies. ] 3 Q And in the day, what was the 1 4 accepted d e f i n i t ion for chroni c toxic i t y in ] 5 terms of length o f time? 1 6 A . It was -- the whole system was 1 7 built on 1 i f e - t i m e , preferably , and y o u 1 8 would probably a s s u me life-tim e as 3 0 1 9 working y ears of a man's life. And o n the 2 0 premises of that b a se, most ch r o n i c 2 1 toxicity was done to determine how much 2 2 would create difficulties in animal 2 3 species, primarily multiple animal species, 2 4 or preferably in multiple animal species 2 5 over long periods of time. And the primary J i |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI j HARTOLDMON0025354 1 perio d was two years. 2 Q Primary period for c hronic -- 3 A . For chronic stu dies was two years. 4 Q At the time tha t you joined the 5 medic a 1 group in St. Lou is in 1 9 5 8 - - 6 A . *54. 7 Q '54? 8 A . Yes. 9 Q At the time you join ed the medical 1 0 group i n St. Louis in 1954, w ere there 1 ] fi l rl 1) ll a r (1 s applicable to M o n s a nto products. 1 2 inclu ding PCBs? ] 3 A . We knew the chr o n i c s . I don't 1 4 recall . If there were. I don 't recall 1 5 t. 1) e m , It o . There was not very many 1 6 a n y w h ere ] 7 Q You indicated i n you r answer that 1 8 we k n e w the chronics, wh at d i d you mean by 1 9 that? 2 0 A . We knew the chr o n i c s on some 2 1 mater ials we made, we ha n d 1 e d , because they 2 2 had b e e n handled so many year s . You can 2 3 start with a list of man y of them; lead. 2 4 m e i o u 1 y , benzene, that s ort of stuff. 2 5 Q But in your ans wer when you said |GORR REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 9l HARTOLDMONOQ25355 1 that you knew the chronics were you 2 refilling to chronics with respect to 3 Monsanto products where a constituent 4 element was PCB? b A . No. I was referring to individual 6 materials that we manufactured and moved 7 ou l of the process in the way of the 8 workers. I mean, let's be honest, that's 9 what an industrial hygienist is supposed to 1 0 do, is to make sure that if that process is 1 1 possible to get in the way of the worker 1 2 and expose him, then you must do something 1 3 either to the worker or to the process, and 1 4 we did both. But as far as who did -- we ] 5 did a lot of chronic toxicity work on the 1 6 PCBs prior to my coming there and after I 1 7 came there, and this was handled by Dr. 1 8 Kelly at the Kettering Institute in 1 9 Cincinnati . 2 0 Q . When you said in your answer that 2 1 we did a lot of chronic toxicity work, 2 2. could you describe for me what you're 2 3 referring to? 2 4 A. if wo had the material we would 2 5 start two year studies with rats, and that |G 0 R K REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 92 HARTOLDMONOQ25356 1 would be with Industrial Biotest or its 2 pi ndfrc:; o r . Okay? And there were 3 consulting laboratories that could and 4 wot,1 ' In it, do chronic studies. You give 5 them a bucket of your stuff and they'd toll 6 you wh.) 1 I lie two year multiple beast study 7 showed. 8 Q. When you joined the medical group 9 i n S t . Louis in 19 5 4 we r e you aware o r i. h e 3 0 r e II U 1 l II nl C lu'onic t o x i c i ty studies r e 1 a ted 1 1 t o PCBs that had be e n - - where thos e 1 ?. s l U d i 1 - n had been p e r f o r m e d as of tha t da t e ? 1 3 A . No . 1 4 Q A r r you aw are o f whether or not 1 5 there were such studies at that point in 16 ti meV 3 7 A. Zes, there were such studies done, 1 8 and we did most of them. On the bare rat 1 9 studies, we had them done prior to the time 2 0 I came there. I don't know -- and the 2 1 studies of degradation and so forth were 2 2 done at Kettering later under Dr. Kelly's 2 3 supervision, and that was factored into" our 2 4 information that we gave customers on PCBs. 2 3 Q. When you ref e'r in your answer to IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 93 HARTOLDMONOQ25357 1 degradation, are you referring to 2 degradation of chemical components i n its 3 environment? 4 A. I'm referring to, in this c a s e , 5 pyrolytic degradation under laborato r y 6 conditions, because that's the only place 7 they could do it. 8 Q. Are you referring to decomp o s i t i o n 9 under fire? 1 0 A . That ' s r i g h t . 1 1 Q And when you refer to ban1 r a t 1 2 f! I ud i ( are you referring to bare a s a 1 3 conditio n , b - a-r-e, or the name of a 1 4 person, Bare? 1 8 A . N o . Just stuff it in their gut 1 6 and see what happens. At vary i n g 1 e v e 1 s . 1 7 And this is a n acute toxicity result 1 8 Q Were there acute toxi city a n a 1 y s e s 1 9 with res p e c t to PCBs when you joined the 2 0 medical group in St. Louis in 1 9 5 4 ? 21 A . I don't know. 2 2 Q Did you subsequently become aware 2 3 that sue h studies existed? 2 4 A . Well, I subsequently became aware 2 8 of what we used as standards at that GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 94 HARTOLDMONOQ25358 1 particular time. And we I had no 2 problem with the fluids in the first 3 place. In the manufacturing process there 4 were some problems, industrial hygiene 5 problems, but it had nothing to do with the 6 fluid product themselves. It had to do 7 with the precursors and so forth. 8 Q. What were the standards used by 9 Monsanto when you joined the medical group? 1 0 A. We used the benzene standard. 1 1 MR. PREUSS: Are you talking about 1 2 acute, now, or what? 1 3 MR. TALLON: Well, in Mr. 1 4 Garrett's answer -- 1 5 A. What we used to protect our 1 6 employees ? 1 7 Q. Yes. 1 8 A. We used the benzene standard of 1 9 the time, because it was the raw material 2 0 that started it. 2 ] Q. That started it. What's the "it" 2 2 in that sentence? 2 3 A. The chlorobiphenyls and what were 2 4 the problems in the manufacturing process 2 5 related to the precursors. Benzene. IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 95 HARTOLDMON0025359 1 (Discussion off the record) 2 MR. TALLON: After you joined the 3 medical group in St. Louis i n 1 9 5 4, M r . 4 Garrett, did you beco me aware that there 5 were indications that M o n s ant o prod u c t s , C including PCBs, had a n e f f e c t on h u man 7 skin? 8 A. As a chemist 9 MR. PREUSS: Let me just object to 1 0 t lie form nf the quest ion as no foundation, 1 1 assuming facts not in evidence. You can go ] ?. a h r ,1 8 . \ . As a c h e m i s t , I a 1 r e a d y knew t h 14 MR . TALLON : A s a c h e m i s t , from 1 5 you r w o rk in Texas City o r -- 16 A. From work in the university. ] 7 Q Okay. 1 8 A. Believe it or not, universities 1 9 also practice safety. 2 0 Q. When you joined the medical group 2 1 in St. Louis did you have any discussions 2 2 with I) :i . Kelly about the effects of 2 3 application o f PCBs t o human skin 2 4 A . Yes We d i s c u s s e d i t in the sen s e 2 5 of what do w e do, a n d h e said w e prevent i t GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 96 HARTOLDMON0025360 1 from being exposed to the skin as best we 2 can . 3 Q. After you joined -- by the way, 4 do you remember the approximate date or 5 dates of your communications with Dr. Kelly 6 on the subject of skin contact with PCBs? 7 A . No. I probably couldn ' t even get 8 close. 9 Q Do you remember if it was in the 10 ' 50 ' s? 1 1 A . Probably. 1 2 Q Do you recollect any d i s c u s s i o n s 1 3 with Mr . Wheeler on the subject of ski n 1 4 contact with PCBs in the 1 5 0 1 s ? 1 5 A . Of course, because he was my boss 1 6 and he sent me out to look at these un its. 1 7 and he briefed me before I went , and a f ter 1 8 that it was pretty much I briefed him on 1 9 w (i a l. I found, and that was about it. 2 0 Q Did you ever report to M r . W h e e 1 e r 2 ] on your o b s e r v a t ions? Well, not ever 2 2 During the 1 9 5 0' s did you report t o M r . 2 3 Wheeler o n any observa tions that you made 2 4 concern i n g the e f f e c t of skin contact wi t h 2 5 PCBs? |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 97 HARTOLDMONOQ25361 1 A.In all of the years I worked at 2 Monsanto and the many thousand times I was 3 in those unitsI never saw an individual 4 problem at all with any skin or any 5 inhalation or in anybody's eyes or anywhere 6 else. 7 Q. Any individual problem meaning an 8 individual worker with -- 9 A. Any individual worker in any of 1 0 the processes, and any workers that used it 1 1 that we had contact with enough to see. 1 2 Some customers, we went and talked to 1 3 them. In all those days I never saw a 1 4 single solitary case in any o f our 1 5 d i s p e n s eries or ever saw it o n their 1 6 or anything else. 1 7 Q. Do you agree that skin contact 1 8 with PCBs causes, or has an effect on skin? 19 MR. PREUSS: I'm just going to 2 0 object, it's vague. You're not describing 2 1 the type of PCB, where the contact is, how 2 2 long the contact is, what the dosage is. 2 3 A. I repeat, I have never seen any 2 4 skin manifestation, any inhalation 2 5 manifestation or any contact manifestation |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 98 HARTOLDMON0025362 1 with any PCB in any worker or customer in 2 all the years I worked with it. 3 MR. TALLON: Did you ever 4 p d 1 1 icipate in an analysis of inhalation 5 i r r i tation of certain workers in England 6 a re suit of breathing PCB v a p o r s ? 7 A. No, not that I know of. And it 8 would have to depe n d o n who did it i n 9 England for me to b e 1 i e v e a n y t h i n g about 3 0 it, anyway. 1 1 Q. During th e 19 5 0 ' s , did you discus 1 2 with Dr. Kelly whe t h e r e X p o sure to P C B s 1 3 resulted in liver d a mage o r kidney damage? 14 MR. P R E U S S : C o u 1 d result. you 1 5 mean? 16 A. Could result? We did liver 1 7 function studies on our workers for years 3 8 and nothing showed up. Now, let's look at 1 9 it from this point of view, we had 2 0 thousands of chemical materials as raw 2 1 materials in individual processes and 2 2 products, our responsibility was to cover 2 3 all of them, and any untoward effect on any 2 4 of our workers and any information that we 2 5 must pass on to our customer's workers. PORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 99 HARTOLDMON0025363 1 PCBs were s o i n n o c u o u s , i n nocuous in our 2 records. both health and o therwise , that 3 they got the usual look t o see if anything had changed. Now, b e c a u s e they we r e 5 chlorinated aromatic hydrocarbons we did a 6 vast amount of work on them to make sure 7 this was not true. 8 MR. PREUSS: Was true, you mean? 9 A. That this was not true. It was 1 0 true that these things were not harmful. 1 1 At what we considered operational 1 2 temperatures of the operations, I saw they 1 3 were not harmful. And I saw them making 1 4 floor tile out of the damn stuff. Which we 1 5 stopped, by the way. 16 MR. TALLON: My question. though , 1 7 is, did you ever talk wi t h Dr. K e 1 1y about 1 8 whether exposure to PCBs resulted in liver 1 9 damage? 2 0 A . We talked to hi m about PCBs a 2 1 g r e at d eal, because PCBs became a p o p u 1 a r 2 2 sub j e c t . And, again, in our own experi e n c e 2 3 a s the only manufacturer in the whole 2 4 hem i s p h ere for all these years, our p e o pie 2 5 had bee n studied and stu died and s t u d i e d. G O R R REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 0 01 HARTOLDMONOQ25364 1 and we studied the materials we studied 2 the toxicology, we took them apart, we 3 burned them, we did everything we could 4 do. My honest opinion is, in our use in 5 the manufacture and the use of the 6 materials that I saw, and I saw the uses in 7 everything from food processing to 8 transformers and so forth, was there ever a 9 single -- thermal burns, I could take you 1 0 to Union Electric, the only thing they ever 1 1 got with the PCB transformer fluids they 1 2 used were thermal burns. 1 3 Q . Did Dr. Kelly ever express to you 1 4 an opinion that PCBs were related to liver 1 5 damage or kidney damage? 1 6 A. Dr. Kelly told me, and I already 1 7 knew, that chlorinated hydrocarbons, if you 1 8 were going to judge a class of materials 1 9 that were hepatorenal toxins, you would 2 0 probably say they were chlorinated 2 1 hydrocarbons. Okay? However, in the case 2 2 of PCBs we never saw it ever in a customer 2 3 or anybody else. We have never seen a 2 4 justified case of toxicity in a worker in 2 5 all the years we made it, in both Europe |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 1 HARTOLDMON0025365 1 and the United States period . Let's b e 2 honest . 3 M R . PREUSS : You' v e an swered. 4 A H e asked me, and that' s my 5 p r o f e s s i o n a 1 opinion. and that' s my 6 p r o f e s s i o n a 1 judgment from mill ions of 7 looks a t people and wa t c h i ng everything 8 from phone manufacturing using it as a 9 hydraulic fluid to the stuff laying in the 1 0 Goddamn ditches of a processing plant that 1 1 was a hell of a crappy plant. Nobody got 1 2 hurt, nobody. 13 MR. TALLON: Did you ever 1 4 prescribe standards for workers at Monsanto 1 5 who did work w ith PCB mater 1 6 A . Yes. 1 7 Q What standards did 1 8 A . I don ' t remember. 1 9 Q. Do you remember in general what 2 0 the standard involved? 21 A. There were mist standards and 2 2 there were X amounts. We never did see 2 3 anything near that standard in the air. 2 4 Q. Were there -- 25 MR. PREUSS: You've answered it GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 102 HARTOLDMON0025366 1 A . It's like throwing rocks in the 2 air, we didn't do it. It wouldn't do 3 anything . 4 MR. TALLON: Were there standards 5 other than mist standards? 6 A. Well, we're not saying mist 7 standards, we are talking about exposure 8 standards. We would talk about how can you 9 get biphenyls in a human system and cause 1 0 difficulty. We never saw it. But we still 1 1 tested for it, because it did belong to the ] 2 family of materials that under certain 1 3 circumstances, and many of that particular 1 4 family .of materials caused trouble. They 1 5 were commonly known as hepatorenal toxins. 1 6 Rut. we never saw it, ever. And believe me, 1 7 we had people work their entire life, many 1 8 hundreds of them, with that stuff. 1 9 Q. Did you promulgate cautions or 2 0 directives on how to deal with these 2 1 materials or how to avoid exposure ~ - 2 2 A . Yes, w e d i d . 2 3 Q -- to M o n s a n t o ' s workers? 2 4 A . We us e d our own s tandards 2 5 workers. |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 3 HARTOLDMON0025367 1 Q And what were those standards? 2 A. Wear gloves, keep everything 3 buttoned up. And it was, anyway, really. 4 because this was a reactor o f some s i z e and 5 complexity. D o not allow this mater i a 1 t o 6 get on your shoe s . If so. you chang e 7 shoes. And all of the workers were given 8 clothing and shoes, gloves and respirators, 9 which we demonstrated there was no need for 1 0 at all. 33 Q. And canyou describe how you 1 2 demonstrated there was no need for the 1 3 respirators or other equipment? 14 A.We never saw a case. We never saw 1 5 a human being that had an out-of-standard 1 6 liver function. We never saw a sick man in 1 7 ail the years we made it. And all the 1 8 plants that had -- that all had 1 9 dispen series did we ever have anything. We 2 0 had -- more than anything else, we had 2 1 complaints that you guys are crazy, you 2 2 come in here and tell uswe have got to put 2 3 these people in moon suits and put 2 4 respirators on them and there is nobody 2 8 ever got hurt with the damn stuff. And we |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 104 HARTOLDMON0025368 1 said yes you do, because it is the 2 standard established by them, the OSHA 3 people. And we fought them hammer and /> 4 Vo-rrgai--, nd so did th e other manufacturers 5 of any of these fluid s, because we had 6 never seen anything w ith them. It takes an 7 enormous damn tempera ture to get them into 8 a gaseous state. 9 Q . When you say we got complaints, 1 0 what are you referrin g to? 1 1 A. I can rememb er going to a 1 2 processing plant wher e they used PCB as a 1 3 processing fluid -- 1 4 Q. A Monsanto plant? 15 A. A Monsanto plant. And telling 1 6 them -- giving them the litany about 1 7 protection. And the nurse and the 1 8 hygienist there, the safety director, 1 9 actually, just ate my ass out for telling 2 0 them that. They've been make making it for 2 1 3b years and had never seen a damn thing by 2 2 anybody. and they said "We got pro b 1 e m s , 2 3 that is not one of them". 2 4 Q. Okay. When you use the term keep 2 5 buttoned up, what does that mean to you? |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 105 HARTOLDMON0025369 1 A . Do you know really this is 2 going to sound silly, the only hazard we 3 ever had was people slipping on i t . 4 Q Okay. b A . We did that -- in the ranks over 6 in the p r ocessing department we had to put sfj'p -prooff/ccrorj 7 in the A -- , put in the floo r/^-4-u--# that 8 has little steel tipples in it, and we gave 9 them shoes, Monsanto shoes, they had their 1 0 own shoes, had their names on them, and 1 1 they could walk there without slipping. 1 2 And we had problems with that, slipping. 1 3 MR. PREUSS: The question was what 1 4 does button up mean. The question he asked 1 5 you is what does button up mean. 1 6 A. What it means button up the system 1 7 so there isn't anything, including the 1 8 slop-out, that can create a mechanical 1 9 hazard of falling and breaking your neck. 2 0 MR. TALLON: Do you have a 2 1 recollection of when Monsanto workers were 2 2 asked to, or were made to wear gloves or 2 3 shoes or special clothing, respirators? 2 4 A. We had the people in the process, 2 5 and this is primarily the process at IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 6 HARTOLDMON0025370 1 Krummrich, East St. Louis plant that I know 2 moreabout than the old one that used to be 3 downat Anniston. That one disappeared in 4 my early days at Monsanto, so that's no 5 problem. You blended these materials to 6 various fluid characteristics. Okay? In 7 other words, people wanted the fluid for 8 its fluid characteristics. What's the pour 9 point, what's the boiling point, what's the 1 0 solidified point, how cold will it get 1 1 before it solidifies and so forth. These 1 2 are fluid characteristics that dictated its 1 3 use. By the way, we talked to the Swedes 1 4 about this thing, even, and they didn't 1 5 ever have any problems with it. -I'm--o or r Y~r~ 1 6 i--------- 1 7 Q. Are you ref e r r i n g t o Swede s 1 8 associated with the stud i e s d one b y -- 1 9 A . I ' m talking a b o u t S w e d e s w here 2 0 t-*re-y--t-r-a n-a port c d--------- they used i t i n their 2 1 electrical transport s y s tern 1 ike w e did. 2 2 And primari ly in capacit o r s a n d 2 3 transformers . 2 4 Q Okay. Just to jump back for 2 5 moment , do you remember when Monsanto i PORE RETORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 07 HARTOLDMONOQ25371 1 employees were advised to or made to wear 2 iaspirators or gloves or other protective 3 clothing? 4 A. They were doing it when I came to 5 Monsanto. They were supposed to do it. 6 And the supervision then was not nearly as 7 good as it was later on in connection with 8 sdIcIy people in the individual plants. 9 When I left the company we had hygienists 1 0 in the plants, professional hygienists in 1 1 the plants. In the East St. Louis plant, 1 2 foi the last 20 years we've had trained 1 3 professional safety people. Th e s e are 1 4 people with degrees in safety engineering 1 5 and trained professional hygienists in 1 6 tha.se plants. But believe me, their 1 7 problems were not in the PCB department. 1 8 Q. When you referred to the concept 1 9 of keeping the PCBs buttoned up or the 2 0 process buttoned up to prevent spillage or 2 1 leakage, do you know when that directive 2 2. was in place? 23 A. Before I came. Before I came that 2 4 was the orders. I just reinforced those 2 5 orders. I found some of the stuff open at GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 10 8 HARTOLDMONOQ25372 1 times and raised cane with them. These 2 were storage -- largely storage 3 facilities. 4 (Noon Recess). 5 MR. TALLON: Why don't we have 6 marked as the next exhibit, that is. 7 Transwestern 111, a two page document 8 bearing production numbers Tran 058059 9 through 058060. ] 0 (Tj answestern Deposition Exhibit Number 1 1 111 mark'd for identification). ]. 2 MR. TALLON: Would you take a 1 3 moment and review that document, please, 1 4 Mr. Garrett? Have you looked at that 1 5 document? 1 6 A . Yes. 1 7 Q. Are you able to identify the 1 8 author of that document? 19 A. No. You don't have the last page, 2 0 I guess. No, I can't identify it. 2 1 Q. Do you have a recollection of 2 2 being asked to review a proposed response 2 3 to a reporter from the San Francisco 2 4 Chronicle? 2 5 A. Yes. I remember -- I don't |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 09 HARTOLDMONOQ25373 1 remember this one specifically n o . S o 2 maybe we should say on that, I don't 3 remember that one specifically, no. 4 Q. Do you have a recollection of 5 being asked on more than one occasion to 6 review responses to -- 7 A . Through the years, yes. 8 MR. PREUSS: Wait a minute. To 9 somebody from the San Francisco Chronicle? 10 MR. TALLON: Yes. 1 1 A . No. 12 MR . PREUSS: Make su re he finishes 1 3 his question , otherwise you'r e answering 1 4 something di fferent than what he might be 1 5 thinking abo u t . 16 M R . TALLON: Do you have a 1 7 recollection of reviewing pro posed 1 8 7' e s ponses to reporters where the proposed 1 9 response was addressed to the subject of 20 PCBs ? 2 1 A . No. 2 2 Q. Can you describe the purpose for 2 3 which you conducted the reviews that you 2 4 remember conducting? 25 MR. PREUSS: I'm not sure -- I IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 110 HARTOLDMON0025374 1 object to the form of the question as 2 inischaracterizing his prior testimony. He 3 said he didn't recall that. 4 MR. T A L L 0 N : Do you remember 5 participating in a review of proposed 6 responses of Monsanto Company to reporters? 7 A. No, notspecifically to 8 r v. purlers . No. 9 Q. Do youremember reviewing proposed 1 0 responses of Monsanto to outsiders other ] 1 1. It o n - 'uitomers? 1 2 A . No. 13 Q. Did your job include any 1 4 responsibility for reviewing company 1 5 s l. a l e in e n t s to persons or entities outside 1 6 Monsanto? 1 7 A. Prom time to time on specific 1 8 subjects, yes. 1 9 Q . Forwit at purpose did you conduct 2 0 that review? 2 ] A. If we got questions in, we had -- 2 2 we tried to answer them, and if anybody 2 3 else couldn't answer them in Monsanto, we 2 4 got them . 2 e> Q. And why, particularly, were you (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 11 1 HARTOLDMON0025375 1 involved in that exercise? 2 A . Just asked by Dr. Kelly to do it. 3 This was my turn in the barrel. 4 Q. Refer, if you will for a moment, 5 back to the exhibit, Mr. Garrett. You'll 6 see in the third paragraph in the last line 7 there is a reference to a Paul Benignus? 8 A . Benignus. 9 Q Can you ide 1 0 A . Paul Benign 1 1 Q What was hi responsibility? 12 A . He was the -oduct supervisor for 13 roclors. I thi : Paul is probably 1 4 now. but he was he product supervisor 1 5 for the aroclors. What his title was, they ] 6 changed them so frequently, I don't know. 1 7 He was the product superintendent or 1 8 supervisor of that product line. 1 9 Q. For what period of time did he 2 0 have that responsibility, as you understand 2 1 it? 2 2 A. From the time I came to St. Louis 2 3 to probably into the ' 7 0 ' s or so. And I 2 4 can't tell you exactly, I have no idea when 2 5 he actually left or went to some other GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 112 HARTOLDMON0025376 1 duties or whatever. 2 Q . Was he included within the organic 3 chemicals division that you described 4 earlier? 5 A . Yes, he was an organic chemicals 6 man. 7 Q. As you understood it -- or, 8 rather, as you used the phrase product 9 s upe r v i SOT, what doe s t h a t job entail i n 1 0 the c a s e of M r . Beni gnus? ] 1 A . H e was the p r i m a r y 1 i a i s o n b e t w e e n 1 2 the corporation and its -- the things it 1 3 could do and the sales people in the field. 1 4 Q. What do you mean when you use the 1 5 phrase the corporation and the things that 1 6 it could do? 1 7 A. He was the man who knew the people 1 8 in the various corporate structures, in 1 9 this case the staff, and where he could get 2 0 information to pass it on to his people in 2 1 the field . And his people in the field 2 2 were the people that sold it. 2 3 Q . During your tenure at Monsanto, 2 4 and focusing particularly on the 1950's and 2 5 1960's, was there an office or department IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 113 HARTOLDMON0025377 .1 responsible for communications with the 2 press? 3 A . We had a P.R. department, and it 4 had about three people in it. Everything 5 connected with the press was usually bumped 6 over to them. 7 Q . And at any point in the 1 9 5 0 ' s and 8 1 9 6 0 ' s can you identify the persons who 9 worked within the P.R. department? 1 0 A . No, I can't remembe r the names. 1 ] Q There is a referenc e in Exhibit 1 2 111 t o an R.W. Risebrough. Did you see 1 3 that n a me? 1 4 A . Yes. 1 5 Q Do you know who R.W . Risebrough 1 6 is? 17 A . No . 1 8 Q Did you 1 9 A . You blanked me there 2 0 Q Do you know if R.W. Risebrough 2 1 o f e s sor at the Un ivers ity o f 2 2 California? 2 3 A . The tone of the dispatch s o u n d s 2 4 like s o m e b o d y like t h a t . 2 S Q . But is it fa i r to say from your [GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 114 HARTOLDMONOQ25378 1 answer that you did not have direc t contact 2 with R . W . R i sebrough. t h at you rem ember 3 today? 4 A . No . 5 Q . Are you f a m i 1 i a r with a c o m p a n y 6 the n a m e o f which is Tex as Eastern 7 Transmi s s ion Corporat ion 8 A . M y sister wo r k e d for them until 9 she was m e d i cally ret ire d in Houst o n . 1 0 Q I n connectio n w ith your w 0 r k at 1 ] Monsanto, didyou have a ny interac tion with 1 2 Texas Eastern? 1 3 A . I had some inte raction wi t h pipe 1 4 companies, but -- pi pel ine compan 1 e s , but 1 5 I don't recognize Texas Eastern as one of 1 6 the people we dealt with directly. 1 7 Q. And who is the we" in that 1 8 sentence? 1 9 A. My group. 2 0 Q. Can you identify other pipeline 2 1 companies with whom you dealt? 2 2 A. No. Monsanto had a pipeline -- 2 3 piece, owned a part of a pipeline company 2 4 in the Lion Oil bundle, and the process -- 2 5 the products of the -- the well products |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 115 HARTOLDMONOQ25379 1 from out in west Texas came through a 2 portion of that pipeline. But it was like 3 many pipelines, it was multi-owned. 4 Q. Did you ever interact with 5 customers of Monsanto who were in the 6 P i P c- 1 i ne business? 1 A . I sent my people to in spec t a n d 8 fr' X ( 1 (II i n < the hazards a ssociated with 9 r e c y c 1 ing oil from va rious oil fields that 1 0 Li fin 0 i l operated or owned part o f and 1 1 o p e r ated, and many of these recycli n g 1 2 p 1 an 1 s were partially owned or join t ly 1 3 o w n e d with others and the pipel i n e 1 4 o p e i ,i 1 inns from those . I don't r e c all the 1 5 name s , but my people -- not I , but m y ] 6 p e o p .1 e had contact wi th them, yes. 1 7 Q. Did you or anyone working for you 1 8 have direct contact with any customer of 1 9 Monsanto who was in the pipeline business 2 0 for the purpose o f d i scussing PCBs? 2 1 A . Not to m y r e collection. 2 2 Q. Did you e v e r discuss with D r . 2 3 Kelly whether he had direct contact with 2 4 any representati v e o f Texas Eastern i n 2 5 connection with Monsanto's PCB-containing |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 116 HARTOLDMON0025380 1 products . 2 A . T never did. I don't recall, that 3 I know. I can't recall it if T did. -3 Q . Do you ((.collect communications 5 with Mr. Wheeler where a s u b j c r 1 of I Imse 6 c n mm u n i o u 1 i o n s was Mr. Wheeler's 7 interaction with Monsanto's customers in 8 the pipeline business when such 9 communications related to PCBs? 1 0 A . No. 1 1 Q. Have you ever heard of 1 2 Transwestern Pipeline Company, other than 1 3 through our discussion this morning? 1 4 A. I heard about it yesterday. Yes, 1 5 1 have heard about it before, as, being a 1 6 flanker to El Paso. 1 7 Q. I'm sorry being a what? 1 8 A. As being an also -- a westbound 1 9 gas pipe system alongside, north of -- in 2 0 the same general area as El Paso Pipe. 2 3 Q. And in what context did you hear 2 2 about that description? 2 3 A. T haven't the foggiest. In 2 4 messing with the west Texas crude setup we 2 5 dealt, with many people, and I don't GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 117 HARTOLDMON0025381 1 remember. 2 Q Have you ever heard of a Monsanto 3 product known as Turbinol or Turbinol 1 S3? 4 A . Y r r; . 5 Q. In what context did you first he a r 6 about Turbinol 153? 7 A . I t was a--blend----o-rr-e--erf--t-h e------------- 8 one of the blends of one of the PCBs with 9 some other fluid materials. 1 0 Q . And u n der what circu m s t a n c e s do 1 1 you r e m e m b e r having an initia 1 con t a c t or 1 2 did you bee o m e aware of the e x i s t e n c e of 1 3 Turbinol ? ] 4 A . I knew it was made. I k n e w that it 1 5 was one o f the end products o f P C B a n d 1 6 other f 1 u i d s in our blending s y s t e m , which 1 7 we did a n u m b e r o f . 1 8 Q A n d do you remember appro x i m a t e 1 y 1 9 when you b e came aware that Tu r b i n o 1 was one 2 0 of your -- one of Monsanto's end p r o d u c t s ? 2 1 A . No . I would be just g u e s s i n g . 2 2 Q D i d you ever acquire any k n owl edge 2 3 a s to the use to w h i ch Turbinol was put by 2 4 its consumers? 2 5 A . What it was used for? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 18 HARTOLDMON0025382 1 Q Yes. 2 A . Yes. 3 Q. What do you know about what 4 T u r inol was used for? b A. It was turbine fluid. 6 Q. What do you mean by turbine fluid? 7 A. Because of its lubricity it was 8 used , and it's non-flammability or non-fir e 9 p t u b 1 c m s -- it was called fire-resistant, 1 0 Mons anto neverdid like to use 1 1 ti n n - flammable -- with fire-resistant 1 2 f 1 u i ds, it made turbine fluids, had enough ] 3 1 u b r icity with additives to be -- to lube 1 4 the joints while it was used as aturbine 1 F> 1 l ill d in h i g h speed turbines. 1 6 Q A n d do you k n ow in what ] 7 a p p 3 7 (' n l i o n s the turbi nes were used where 1 8 T u r b inol w a s used to 1 ubricate the 1 9 t u i b .7 i) e. s 2 0 A . G o s h , yes. P rimarily in the 2 1 elec trie a 1 i n d u s t r y . 2 2 Q I ' m sorry, I can't hear you. 2 3 A . P r i m a ri1y in the electrical 2 4 i ndu s t r y 2 8 Q A r e you aware of any other IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI HARTOLDMON0025383 1 application or use of turbines where those 2 turbines were lubricated with Turbinol? 3 A. We were asked questions from time 4 to time about some applications of 5 Turbinol, or of Turbinol type, which was a 6 PCB-containing turbine fluid. That means 7 more than -- we were never privy to all 8 the additives unless we asked and unless we 9 had any reason to doubt them. So I've 3 0 looked at and studied, and my people have 1 1 checked on turbine fluids as a class used 3 2 in small and large turbines by a good many 1 3 Monsanto customers. Now, I could not tell 3 4 you even closely what the blends were that 1 5 went to who. 1 6 Q. Okay. Do you know, of the 1 7 applications in which the turbines were 3 8 used, where those turbines were lubricated 1 9 with Turbinol? 20 A. T V A . I went to T V A in Knoxville 2 1 -- I mean, in Chattanooga, their safety 2 2 people one time and spent a couple days 2 3 messing with them. And their interest was 2 4 5n both water turbines and steam turbines. 2 5 Q. Did you or your people visit (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 120 HARTOLDMONOQ25384 1 locations other than the T V A location you 2 just referred to to observe the turbine 3 application? 4 A . I c o u 1 d n ' t say. I real iy , 5 g e n u i n e 1 y couldn't s a y . Some of my p e o p1 6 had - - I gave them as much lati t u d e as 7 poss ib 1e . If they got ca lied to g o 8 someplace that had s o m e t h i n g to do with 9 turbi n e s , they would have d e t e r m ined what i n the s t a t u s was from the fluid pe o p 1 e and 1 l gone and made their best j u d g m e n t to the 1 2 i n d i v i d u a 1 connected with their specialty 1 3 which was health . ] 4 Q. Which was -- excuse me? 1 5 A . Health. 1 6 Q. Did you acquire an understanding 1 7 of how the T V A turbine was to be used or 1 8 was being used? 1 9 A. It was my general feeling that 2 0 they used a million turbines in varying 2 1 types of methods, and their interest was 2 2 not my specialty as much as it was a 2 3 s P r- r i * l i v of corrosion people and people 2 4 who understood rubber and rubber materials 2 8 used ,i gaskets and so forth, so I sicked GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 1 HARTOLDMONOQ25385 1 them on our rubber chemical people. 2 Q . During your tenure at Monsanto was 3 there a group whose function it was to 4 become familiar with the application where 5 Monsanto products were being used? 6 A . Any of the product groups had 7 developed -- well, Benignus was an 8 example. All the product groups had an 9 individual or a group of individuals, ] 0 depending on the complexity of their group, 1 1 of saleable products that liaisoned between 1 2 Mr. ii santo and its many technical i-g-u-r-c hca ehs 1 3 one way o r the other and their cus toier. 1 4 And i n many cases we went to the c ustomer 1 5 with them. We never went without them. 1 6 let's put it that way, to a customer 1 7 without the product man with us. And that 1 8 was the salesman out of the regional sales 1 9 office, or his superior. 2 0 Q . Did Mr. Benignus have 2 1 responsibility for acquiring knowledge 2 2 about the applications of the Monsanto 2 3 products for which he had responsibility? 2 4 A. I don't -- to tell you the truth, 2 5 I do not remember the extent of Benignus' GORE: REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 122 HARTOLDMONOQ25386 responsibilities s o I can't really answer 2 i hat question. 3 Q. Is it your understanding that a 4 person in his posi tion i n the o r g a b C h t ill ' . division would have that 6 responsibil ity? 7 A . Yes , 8 Q. I'd like to have marked as 9 Transwestern Exhibit 112 a single page 1 0 document bearing production number Tran 1 1 054452. 1 2. ( T Tans western Deposition Exhibit Number 1 3 112 mark'd for identification). 14 MR. TALLON: Have you taken a 1 5 moment to review that document, Mr. 1 6 Garrett? 1 7 A . Yes. 1 8 Q. And could you describe for the 1 9 record what that document is? 2 0 A. It's a letter to the safety 2 1 director then of the W.G. Krummrich plant 2 2 of Monsanto concerning one of the stranded, 2 3 in this case isolated departments at that 2 4 plant . 2 b Q. And what department was that? |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 3 HARTOLDMON0025387 1 A . It's the aroclor department. One 2 of the b iggest abuse was eating in the 3 p r o c e s s areas. And when I first went into 4 the bigg est of Monsanto's organic plants 5 they ate in the process areas. And I 6 finally got them out of there into the 7 eating r oom where they belonged. 8. Q For the record, Mr. Garrett, could 9 you i d e ntify what you meant when you used 1 0 the term aroclors? 1 1 A . Aroclors were the Krummrich 1 2 produced chlorinated biphenyls. 1 3 Q Were chlorinated biphenyls 1 4 produced at plants other than the Krummrich 1 5 plant? ] 6 A. When I first went to Monsanto they 1 7 were produced at Anni ston, Alabama, 1 8 briefly. 1 9 Q. During your tenure at Monsanto 2 0 were polychlorinated biphenyls produced at 2 1 any other plants othe r than those two? 22 A. Just W.G. Kr ummrich Plant. And 2 3 the Anniston plant wh en that unit was in 2 4 operation. 2 8 Q. And is that your signature? |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 124 HARTOLDMONOQ25388 1 A . Yes. 2 Q. On the bottom of the document? 3 A . Yes. 4 Q . Are those your initials in the 5 lower 1 e ft-hand corner of the document? 6 A . Yes. 7 Q Followed by th e initials SMB? 8 A . Yes. 9 Q And was SMB a secretary in your 1 0 group at that time? 1 ] A . Yes. Lord, I never would have 1 2 remember ed that far bac k in 1955. 1 3 Q Did you prepar e this document? 1 4 A . Yes. ] 5 Q And was the do cument prepared in 1 6 the regular course of y our business at 1 7 Monsanto 7 1 8 A . Yes. 1 9 Q And was it one of your functions 2 0 to p r e p a re documents su ch as this document? 2 1 A . Yes. 2 7. Q For what purpo e was this one page 2 3 document prepared? 2 4 A . To stop eating in the process 2 5 areas. And the process area in this case GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 125 HARTOLDMONOQ25389 1 was Department 2 4 6. 2 Q. I want to refer you to the first 3 numbered paragraph of Exhibit 112. And I 4 refer you to the language which says, and I 5 quote, "Aroclor vapors and other process 6 vapors could contaminate the lunches unless 7 they were properly protected." What what a did you mean when you used the word 9 contaminate in that sentence? 1 o A. Condensed aroclor vapor. 11 Q. And in what fashion could 1 2 condensed aroclor vapor contaminate 1 3 lunches? 1 4 A. It would condense on their lunch 1 5 bucket and/or their bag, whichever. 1 6 Q. And that was a reason why, in your 1 7 opinion, lunches should not be eaten in the 1 B pror.-ess department? 1 9 A. That is my opinion why lunches 2 0 should not be eaten in any processing 2 1 department, and specifically that one in 2 2 this memo. 2 3 Q. In the second numbered paragraph 2 4 of this document you refer to the chance of 2 5 contaminating hands and subsequently GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISS OURI 126 HARTOLDMON0025390 1 contaminating the food. Are you referring 2 to the possibility of a worker getting an 3 aroclor on their hands? 4 A . Yes. h Q. And that, in your opinion, was a 6 basis for prohibiting eating lunches in 7 that department? 8 A. No. The reason for prohibiting 9 eating lunches in that department was it 1 0 was dangerous and foolish to eat lunches in 1 1 chemical processing departments of any 1 2 kind, and I cannot make that plant mind if 1 3 the individual units don't mind. 1 4 Q. It is correct, isn't it, that the 1 5 paragraph numbered 2 is identified as a 1 6 reason for prohibiting eating lunches in 1 7 that department, that is to say. Department 18 246? 1 9 A. I would say it was the primary 2 0 reason. 2 1 Q . The third numbered paragraph 2 2 states that "It has long been the opinion 2 3 of Ihe medical department that eating in 2 4 process departments is a potentially 2 8 hazardous procedure." Did you write that? |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 127 HARTOLDMONOQ25391 1 A . I sure did. 2 Q. And in that sentence where you 3 r e f e r r e d to t h e fact that it had 1 4 t h e o p i n i on u f the me dical departm 5 peri o d Of t i m e were y ou referring 6 A . M y o w n boss' period of ti 7 told m e t h a t h i m s e 1 f . I came back 8 o t 1 h (- proc ess -- it may not have 9 this o n e , a n d he told me that he d 1 0 want eating in the process areas, either, 1 1 and if I could beat them on the head, beat 1 2 them on the head, and I did. 1 3 Q. And in that answer, by your boss 1 4 are you referring to Mr. Wheeler? 1 5 A . That's corre c t . 1 6 Q In addition t o the sentence I just 1 7 you. the paragra P h numbered 3 also 1 8 states that the early literature work 1 9 claimed that chlorinated biphenyls were 2 0 quite toxic materials by ingestion or 2 1 inhalation. Do you see that? 2 2 A . Yes. 2 3 Q. And can you explain to me or tell 2 4 me the early literature to which you were 2 5 referring? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 8 HARTOLDMONOQ25392 1 A. Decomposition literature that I 2 saw that was from somewhere, I don't even 3 know. I don't remember. But if you'll 4 look above, you'll see "While the aroclors 5 are not particularly hazardous," which was 6 our opinion, actually, and still is my 7 opinion. 8 Q. Do you know the publications in 9 which the early literature to which you 1 0 referred appeared? 1 1 A. In the health business in industry 1 2 the formal appearance of formal literature 1 3 didn't come along until late in the 1 4 business. Now, I'm not saying my ] 5 appearance on the scene, I came before this 1 6 happened, but a lot of it was in documents, 1 7 pamphlets, letters from customers or 1 8 letters from suppliers saying this product 1 9 can do thus and so, and most of our made-up 2 0 opinions and reasons were mixed up in those 2 1 documents and not in formal documents. If 2 2 you understand what I'm saying. 2 3 Q. Yes. When you use the term "early 2 4 literature work" in Exhibit Number 112, 2 5 were you referring to customer letters? |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 129 HARTOLDMON0025393 1 A Very likely to that or a pamphlet 2 of some kind. 3 Q. And do you have any recollection 4 of the customer letters to which you were E> referring, if they were included within 6 early literature work? 7 A . No. 8 Q. Do you have any recollection of 9 the identity of the pamphlets or other 1 0 in a lo rials that were included within that 1 1 phrase "early literature work"? ]2 A. No. It probably was connected 1 3 with -- ]4 MR. R R E LI 8 3 : Do you know? 1 5 A . No . 16 MR. PRKIISS : I don't want you to 1 7 guess. 1 8 A . I'd be guesssing. 19 MR . TALLON : Do youhave can 2 0 y o Li y 5 v e me your best estimate asto what 2 1 that phra se may have referred to? 22 MR . PREUS S : He said hewould be 2 3 guessing. so if he's guessing, he can't 2 4 give -- 28 MR . TALLON : You interrupted him. |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 0 HARTOLDMONOQ25394 1 I'd like to have his answer. 2 MR. PREUSS: If he can give you a 3 best estimate, he will. If he's 4 sperulating or guessing, he won't. 5 A. It probably came from the work 6 done by Dr. Treon. 7 Q. I'm sorry. Doctor - 8 A. Dr. Treon. 9 Q. And could you spell that last ] 0 name, please? 1 1 A . What? 1 2. Q. Would you please spell that 1 3 gentleman's last name? ] 4 A. T-r-e-o-n. 1 5 Q. And who is or was Dr. Troon? 1 6 A . He was, he is dead. He was a 1 7 toxicologist with the University of 1 8 Cincinnati Kettering Laboratories. 1 9 Q. Had Dr. Treon published works or 2 0 liteiriluro by November 14, 1955 which 2 1 related to or touched on t. h n issue of 2 2 toxicology of P C B s ? 2 3 A . T d o n ' I' know. 2 4 Q. A to you aware of whether by 2 5 November 14, 1955 Dr. Treon did any work 9 |G 0 R K REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 131 HARTOLDMON0025395 1 relating to toxicology of P C B s ? 2 A. The dates are difficult to judge. 3 It was in that period of time that some 4 w o r I. , i done. b Q. And what work was that, as best 6 you recall? 7 A. Decomposition work on aroclors. 8 Q. Could you define for the. record 9 what, you mean when you use the phrase 1 0 decomposition work? 1 1 A. Chemical disintegration of the 1 2 molecular species. 1 3 Q. And as best you recall it, what 1 4 was the conclusion or what were the 1 5 conclusions of the work which you have in 1 6 mind when you refer to decomposition work? 1 7 A. Depended on the temperature and 1 8 everyth ing, of course. 1 9 Q What depended o n the t emperature? 2 0 A . The decomposi t i o n s t a t e . 2 ] Q And was that the only conclusion 2 2 of the studies which you have in mind, or 2 3 the literature work which you have in mind? 2 4 A. That's right. Now, you asked me 2 5 -- you approached this a different way. I IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI HARTOLDMON0025396 1 do not know if that's what I had in mind. 2 You asked me do you know of anything that 3 could have, and that could have triggered 4 that comment. I don't know, it's too long 5 ago. 6 Q. I understand. In the paragraph 7 numbered 3 you wrote, "In any case, where a 8 workman claimed physical harm from any 9 contaminated food, it would be extremely 1 0 difficult on the basis of past literature 1 1 reports to counter such claims." Did you 1 2 write that sentence? 1 3 A . Yes. 3 4 Q. And do you have any recollection 1 5 of the past literaturereports to which you 1 6 referred inthat sentence? 1 7 A. Well, any reports on any material 3 8 that a worker got i n v o 1 v e d i n w o u 1 d be 1 9 d i f f icult to trace. He s a y s h e got -- h e 2 0 ate some aroclor. Who's g o i n g t o prove h e 2 1 did not? That's my p r o b 1 e m . W e had very. 2 2 very little of that in Mon s a n t , of the 2 3 a c c u sation that he did t hi s o r d id that o r 2 4 did something else. But i t s P o s s i b 1 e . 2 5 And that's what it was the r e f o r |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 3 HARTOLDMONOQ25397 1 Q Did you keep a fil e or did anyone 2 work i n g in your group keep files relating 3 to 1 iterature on toxicology of chemicals 4 used b y Monsanto? 5 A . Yes. 6 Q And in 1955 do you recall whether 7 there was a file or there were files 8 relating to PCB toxicology? 9 A . I'm sure there were, but of my own 1 0 cMit-rt knowledge, that far ago, I don't 1 1 know. 1 2 Q. D.i d you maintain such files 1 3 personally? 1 4 A . We )l a <j c e n t r a 1 f i les for our 1 5 s y s tern, f or the m e d .i c a 1 s Y stem. You ] 6 m a i ll 1 ` i. i 1 y o u r own c o r r e s pondence file s in 1 7 you r own desk. The only f ile I had in m y ] 8 off ice w a s in my d e s k . 1 9 Q Which f. i 1 e was t h at? 2 0 A . The only f i 1 e I h ad in my offi c e 2 1 when I worked in Monsanto was a file in m y 2 2 desk w h ich contain e d large ly personnel 2 3 r e c o r d s , salaries. s alary set-ups, sala r y 2 4 s c h e d u 1 es and that s o r t of thing. The rest 2 5 of t h e stuff went b y p r o c e ss, by produc t or GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 4 HARTOLDMONOQ25398 1 by name into the regul a r f i 1 e . 2 Q Into the regular files of the 3 medical department? 4 A . That's right. S o everybody could 5 use the m, that's right 6 Q And was there one person whose job 7 it was to maintain tho s e f i 1 e s ? 8 A . A very overworked secretary. 9 Q Who was that. d o you remember? 1 0 A . Oh, my, that was many different 1 1 people . 12 MR. PREUSS: Are you talking about 1 3 in '55? 14 MR. TALLON: I ' m still talking 1 5 circa ' 5 5 . 1 6 A . No, T can't. That would be 1 7 downtown at the Queeny plant, office 1 8 bui l ding . 1 9 Q. The files maintained in 1955 would 2 0 be in the Queeny office building? 2 1 A. No. No. They were moved out to 2 2 the main office. And much of them -- many 2 3 of them were destroyed because they were 2 4 out of date, far out of date, and the 2 5 amount of literature and records in |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 5 HARTOLDMONOQ25399 1 connection with health concerns with 2 chemicals have expanded so immensely that 3 it's difficult to keep files except quite 4 up- \ o - d a t e files. And it change s so 5 r a p i d 1 y , as well. So the f i 1 e s that exist 6 i f W e do have them , may be s o m e w here and 7 they may be in -- they may be i n storage, 8 they may be on computer rec o r d s , they 9 probably have been disposed o f . ] 0 Q Would you mark as E x h i b it 113, 1 1 please, a single page document bearing the ] 2 production number Tran 019567 . 1 3 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 1 4 113 mark'd for identification). 15 MR. TALLON: Could you take a 1 6 moment and review that, please? 1 7 A. I'm through. 1 8 Q Can you identify t h is document? 1 9 A . Yes. 2 0 Q What is it? 2 1 A . I wrote it, it's i n connection 2 2 with a question we were as k e d . 2 3 Q - I want to ask you a couple 2 4 q u e s t i o n s about that forma t of the 2 5 d o c u m e n t , Mr. Garrett. Th i s is a carbon GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 136 HARTOLDMON0025400 1 copy o r it appears to be right? 2 MR. PREUSS: This is a Xerox copy 3 MR. TALLON: Right. B u t the 4 origin al document is a carbon c opy o r a 5 copy o f another docu m e n t . In 1 9 6 1 did you 6 have a photocopying machine or did you use 7 carbon paper? 8 A. In 1961 we used carbon paper, or 9 we used a photocopying machine, the old 3 0 Kokak sloppies, they used a fluid material 1 1 in it. 1 2. Q . Printed out in purple ink? 1 3 A . Ours d i d n ' t get out in pur pie 3 4 I don't think I t was a rather s 1 o ppy 1 5 process.. W e had a bunch of buttons b a 1 6 that little closet, we did it with a bunch 1 7 of pincher clothes pins to let them drip 1 8 dry. Better than having them recopied. 1 9 Q. Up in the upper right-hand corner 2 0 of the document there is a couple of 2 1 handwritten notations. Is oneof those 2 2 your initial? 2 3 A . J T G , yes. 2 4 Q. What does the application of your 2 5 initial to the upper right-hand of the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 137 HARTOLDMON0025401 1 document signify if anything? 2 A. I don't know. I don't know why in 3 the hell I would copy -- put my initials 4 on my own document. I have no idea why 5 that's there. 6 Q. Was it to indicate inclusion of 7 this document in your file? 8 A. No. I would not have kept it in 9 my file. It would have been in the 1 0 correspondence file for aroclors . 1 1 Q. And there is another set of 1 2 marginalia in the upper right-hand corner, 1 3 looks like an M and a little smiley face, 1 4 do you see that? 15 A. 24 something. I don't know what 1 6 that is. 1 7 Q. You don't recognize the 1 8 handwriting? 1 9 A. It could be a doodle, I'm a 2 0 terrible doodler. 2 1 Q. Do you remember the circumstances 2 2 under which -- 2 3 A . Excuse me. It looks like a 2 4 Monsanto telephone number, actually, a four 2 5 digit -- in the old days before we got all |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 8 HARTOLDMON0025402 1 the m o d e r n e q u i p m e n t o u r telephones were 2 four d i g i t thin g s . a Q D o you know w h ose phone extension 4 that was? 5 A . H e a v e n s , no. 6 Q In 196 1 ? 7 A . No 8 Q T h e f o r m a t o f the document, are 9 you a b 1 e t o tel 1 from 1 ooking at this to 1 0 whom this d o c u m e n t w a s addressed? 1 1 A . T h is o n e ? 1 ?. Q Y e s . 1 3 A . T o A . T . H i n s o n . And he was likely 1 4 in t h e o v e r seas d i v i s i o n at that time, 1 5 Q A r e you draw i n g the conclusion 1 6 that M r . H i n s o n was 1 i k ely in the overseas 1 7 department because the text of the memo 1 8 refers to some experien ce in Germany? 1 9 A . Yes. 2 0 Q. And do you rec ollect the 2 1 circumstances under whi ch you authored this 2 2 memorandum? 2 3 A. Except that it came over from 2 4 overseas, very likely, It probably went to 2 8 the .local contact in Ge rmany, went from IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 139 HARTOLDMON0025403 i there to the office in Brussels and from 2 there to the office in St. Louis and from 3 there over here to me. 4 Q. The first paragraph of the memo 5 refers to a letter from a Mr. Hank or 6 Hanke, and the paragraph states, and I 7 quote, "It is our opinion that he has been 8 handling aroclors in a very incautious 9 manner." Do you remember the manner in 1 0 which -- 11 A . No I would assume Mr. Hanke is 1 2 German . 13 MR. PREUSS: Don't assume. Do you 1 4 remember the manner of handling? 1 5 A. I don't. 16 MR. TALLON: But I think the 1 7 question was, do you remember the manner in 1 8 which the aroclors were being handled, to 1 9 which the memorandum refers? 2 0 A. No, not actually. 2 1 Q. What does that mean? 22 A. I don't -- there are some 2 3 European uses of it that we were violently 2 4 opposed to and finally stopped, and I don't 2 5 know -- and this is unfair to say that. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 140 HARTOLDMON0025404 1 because it may not be true l n this case s o 2 that's the end of that. 3 Q. The next sentence in that same A paragraph states that "Based on American 5 industrial hygiene practices this might 6 even be called a dangerous manner." Do you 7 know what it was that you were referring to 8 asbeing dangerous? 9 A. Unless it wasvaporized in the 1 0 breathing zone of the workers, I would not 1 1 have said that. 1 2 Q. And why was that dangerous? 13 A. Because they wouldbreathe it. 1 4 Q. Did you author this memorandum in 1 5 the regular course of your business at ] 6 Monsanto? 1 7 A . Yes. ] 8 Q. And did you author it in response 1 9 to reading Mr. Hanke's letter on or about 2 0 March 8, 1961? 2 1 A . That i s w h a t it appears to be. 2 2 Q D o you d o u b t that that' s what it 23 2 4 A . N o , I don' t doubt it. But that 2 5 does -- there could, I suppose, be reasons IGORE REPORTING COMPANY 1 ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 1 HARTOLDMON0025405 m h b 1 y is. Q . r i d y " ' ' 'f Mr. Hinson to 3 rely on your response in this mcmoi d mi um? 4 A . T hat ' n r i g h t . 5 Q . And it was part of y o u i regular 6 function at Monsanto to author memoranda 7 such as this one? 8 A . Yes. 9 Q. Why don't we mark as Exhibit 114 a 1 0 two page document bearing production 1 1 numbers Tran 019568 and 019569. 1 2 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 1 3 114 mark'd for identification). 14 MR.TALLON: Would you take a 1 5 moment and review that, please? Did you 1 6 get a chance to review that? 1 7 A . Yen. 1 8 Q. Can you identify that document? 1 9 A . Yes. 2 0 Q. What is that? 2 1 A. It's a letter to a gentleman named 2 2 C he ever at Argonne National Laboratory 2 3 concerning the use of aroclor heat transfer 2 4 fluids that they were proposing to do -- 2 5 to use. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 142 HARTOLDMON0025406 1 Q . Who wrote that letter? 2 A . It was written by myself. 3 Q. Do you remember the inquiry to 4 which you were respondi n g i n this letter 5 A Specifically, n o . 6 Q Did you write t h i s letter in t h 7 regula r c ourse of your job a t M o n s a n t o ? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And did you wr i t e t h is 1 e t t e r o 1 0 or a b o u t November 20, 1962 i n resp o n s e t J ] letter s e nt to you or s o m e c o m m u n i cation 1 2 Mr. Chari es Cheever? 1 3 A Looking at the 1 e 11 e r , I would 1 4 it was f r om a direct re q u e s t from M r . 1 8 Cheever . 1 6 Q. By direct, you're referring to a 1 7 telephone communication? 1 8 A. Letter or telephone call. 1 9 Q. And do you recollect whether you 2 0 wrote this letter at or about -- 2 1 A. It says that in there, by the way. 2 2 Q R i g h t ., And do you r e c all w h e t h e r 2 3 you wrote this letter within a r e a s o n a b 1 e 2 4 time after you got t h at comm uni cat ion from 2 5 Mr. Cheever? |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI I 1 4 31 HARTOLDMON0025407 1 Heavens I don't know. But it 2 says November 13th and we answered it 3 November 20th, so we did a fairly decent 4 job. 5 Q And you intended Mr. Cheever to 6 rely on the information re fleeted in the 7 J otter? 8 A . I did. 9 Q And responding to inquiries such 1 0 as the one from Mr. Cheever was part of 1 1 your job at Monsanto? 1 2 A . I t was part o f m y job, part o f D r 1 3 K e 1 iy ' s job and part o f M r . Whee 1 e r ' s j o b 1 4 a t t h i s time . I e n d e d u p i n h e r i ting t h i s . 1 5 I d o n ' t know any spec i f i c reason why I did 1 6 other than it was a letter that needed 1 7 answering . 1 8 Q. The last paragraph on the first 1 9 page of the letter indicates that "In 2 0 experiments where suitable animals were 2 1 exposed to the decomposition products of 2 2 such fluids, toxic effects occurred in the 2 3 animals only at concentrations which humans 2 4 would not voluntarily endure," and so on, 2 5 I'm not going to read to the end of the IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 144 HARTOLDMON0025408 1 sentence. What were the toxic effects to 2 which you referred? 3 A . You would get the same toxic 4 effect, essentially, from hydrochloric acid 5 fumes. 6 Q What t o x ic effect was that? 7 A . Extreme irritation of the u 8 respiratory tract, the eyes and ultimately, 9 if you can't escape, it would transfer to 1 0 the lower tract and you would end up having 1 1 acidity, just like swallowing acid. 1 2 Q. Were there other toxic effects 1 3 from exposure to decomposition products of 1 4 the fluids referred to? 1 5 A. Actually, if you'll -- 16 MR. PREUSS : Referred to in the 1 7 letter or -- 18 MR. TALLON: Yes, referred to in 1 9 the letter. 2 0 A. Well, a bundling of decomp 2 1 products from pyrolysis would contain 2 2 carbon, and it did, because stuff was 2 3 black, soot, smoke was black. It would 2 4 contain probably no individual compounds 2 5 because they would have been pyrolyzed, so i |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 145 HARTOLDMON0025409 1 you would end up with carbon chlorine 2 hydrogen chloride, which would promptly 3 turn into hydrochloric acid in the mois t u r e 4 of the at mosphere. We ran these at ove r a 5 thousand degrees fahrenheit, and it's o n 6 the secon d page, the conditions. As a n o t e 7 here, in Dr. Treon's work he showed tha t 8 below 600 degrees fahrenheit there was n o 9 ------a-~fe~-v-e---6 0-6--t-h ere--was--n-e- decomp produ c t s , 1 0 literally , they were the final pyrolyti c 1 1 products down to L and L materials. 1 2 Q You advised Mr. Cheever that " W e 1 3 do not be lieve protective clothing is 1 4 necessary to prevent skin contact durin g 1 5 transfer of these fluids." Do you see 1 6 that? 17 MR P R E U S S Where are you reading 1 8 from? 19 MR. TALLON: From the third 2 0 paragraph on page 1. 2 1 A. In pumps, the material at room 2 2 temperature was innocuous . --3~fe--had--e--e---- 2 3 --c-rrcHt-d--dissolve--im--a-------- Xt was a good 2 4 grease and oil solvent and it would 2 5 dissolve the oils out of the skin. It jGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 146 HARTOLDMON0025410 1 could dry your skin that's all. 2 Otherwise, it was just like putting your 3 hand in water. 4 Q. As of 1962, I believe you had 5 earlier testified that Monsanto workers 6 were advised to wear gloves and other 7 protective clothing? 8 A. They wore gloves and protective 9 clothing to keep the fluid off their skin 1 0 and to keep it out of their -fe-1 o o d y - lunch 1 1 box. 1 2 Q. Before sending this particular 1 3 letter to Mr. Cheever, do you recollect 1 4 having this letter reviewed by anyone at 1 5 Monsanto? 1 6 A. No, I don't. 1 7 Q. Was it your practice to s e e k 1 8 review of correspondence with outs i d e -- 1 9 A. Not necessarily. This co n t a i n s 2 0 the standard -- the information w e knew, 2 1 and it's as good a thumbnail sketc h as you 2 2 could get for a technical man. An d Mr. 2 3 Cheever is a res e a r c h eng i n e e r , a I 2 4 recall , over at A r g o n n e , and he w s working 2 5 on reactors. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 147 HARTOLDMONOQ25411 1 MR. PREUSS: There is no question. 2 MR. TALLON: If you weren't 3 finish ed with your answer, I would 4 a p p r e c iate it if you would continue. 5 A . No, there is nothing to answer. 6 Q . I want to show you a document that 7 has a 1 ready been marked as an exhibit at an 8 earlie r deposition in this matter. I'm not 9 going to have it remarked. 1 0 MR. PREUSS: Can you give me the 1 1 number ] 2 MR. TALLON: Frederick Exhibit 7. 1 3 Will y ou take a moment to review that, 1 4 please 1 5 A . Yes. 1 6 Q . Have you had an opportunity to 1 7 review that? 1 8 A . Yes. 1 9 Q . Can you identify the document? 2 0 A . I can't identify it specifically, 2 1 I can identify that I did it and it would 2 2 easily fall within my purview. 2 3 Q . This is a memorandum written by 2 4 you? 2 8 A . Yes. [GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 8 HARTOLDMON0025412 1 Q And it was -- -- was i t a memorandum 2 written in the regular c o u r s e of your 3 business 7 4 A . Yes . L i. k e 1 y Pa p p a g e orge asked me 5 to write i t , very 1 i k e 1 y 6 Q Was the w r i ting made on or about 7 February 1 9 , 1 9 7 0 ? 8 A . T h a t's the date , yes 9 Q By the way. i s this the kind of ] 0 memo that yo u would diet ate o r would you 1 1 hand w ri t e i t and then h a v e s omeone type it 1 2 for you? 1 3 A . 11 depended o n which of the 1 4 secretar i e s I had at the time . Some of 1 5 them could d o it and s o m e had their own 1 6 pigs for o r g a n i c c h e mica 1 n a m es and others ]. 7 made a h o r r i b 1 e mess o f them. So if it was 1 8 the latter, I wrote it by hand; if it was 1 9 the former and the first secretary I had 2 0 there, she did it beautifully. 2 1 Q. And did you intend for Mr. 2 2 Pappageorge to rely on the information that 2 3 you were communicating to him in this 2 4 memorandum? 2 5 A. Yes. Well, I communicated it to i PORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 9 HARTOLDMONOQ25413 1 him because I wanted him to know what we 2. needed to do. 3 Q. Was it an important part of the 4 business of Monsanto that the information 5 you were conveying in this memo to Mr. 6 Pappageorge be as accurate as you knew? 7 A. Well, it was an assembling of the 8 information that bits and pieces of 9 information that we in the medical 1 0 department did. And Pappageorge probably ] 1 asked a question of us a n d w a nted a letter 1 2 reply in connection with the Great Lakes ]. 3 s Indies, and that's what it i nvolved and I 1 4 gave him this letter. ] 5 Q. And you believed the information 1 6 that you gave him in this letter was ] 7 accurate? 1 8 A. At the time it was as accurate as 1 9 we could make it, yes. 2. 0 Q. Now, this appears, again, to be a 2 1 copy of an original memorandum or letter, 2 2 correct? There is no indication, but is it 2 3 your testimony that this was to Mr. W.B. 2 4 Pappageorge? 2 8 A. Yes. With a letter to Howard GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 150 HARTOLDMON0025414 1 Bergen and Clay. 2 Q. A carbon copy or Xerox copy to 3 those gentlemen? 4 A . Yes. 5 Q Who is Mr. 6 February 1970, what 7 position at Monsant 8 A . I would be 9 anything. because I 1 0 actual title. He was involved in this, in ] 1 the fluid group. Okay? 1 2 Q. He was involved in the fluid group 1 3 of the organic chemicals division? 1 4 A. That's correct. ] 5 Q. Was he a businessman or a chemist 1 6 or a lawyer? 1 7 A. He was a businessman,primarily. 1 8 That doesn't mean he did not have a 1 9 technical degree. As you know, in a 2 0 chemical company, very frequently the 2 1 businessman, even though he won't admit it, 2 2 is a chemical engineer or chemist or 2 3 something like that. 2 4 Q. And in the case of each of the 2 5 three names that appear on the top of that. IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 1 HARTOLDMONOQ25415 1 the first page of this exhibit. there is 2 series of letters; for example. after Mr 3 Pappageorge it says "WPAPA", do you see 4 that, and after Mr. Bergen -- 5 A. Water pollution -- 6 MR. PREUSS: He just asked you if 7 you saw it? 8 A . Yes. 9 MR . TALL0N : One a f t e r 1 0 and it says C . Clay. I s t h at a 1 1 abbreviation meaning the n a m e s 1 2 A . T h i s , a n d one o n Bergen would b e 13 BRG 1 4 Q W h a t d o e s t h a t si g n i f y ? 1 5 A . I t ' s n o thing more than a 1 6 trans m i s s ion -- ] 7 Q Th a t w a s an a d d r e s s or an a d d r ess 1 8 s ys tem ? 19 A . Tha t ' s correct . 2 0 Q Now r i n F e b r u ary of 1970 wh ere was 2 1 M r . Bergen's O f f ice in r e 1 ationship t o your 2 2 off ice? 2 3 A . I w a s a t that t i m e in the A 2 4 Bui 1 din g at M o n s a n t o a n d M r. Bergen' s 2 5 off ice would h a v e been i n the B or E -- B (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 2 HARTOLDMONOQ25416 1 Building. The organic division was in the 2 B building. 3 Q. Did you have any oral 4 communication with Mr. Bergen about this b memorandum or the subjects in it? 6 A . Howard was the kind of person that 7 came over to your office and sat down and 8 drank your coffee and sat on your desk, so 9 it is possible that we did get Bergen over 1 0 there asking about it. But I have a ] 1 feeling that it was Pappageorge that 1 2 initiated it andBergen simply got a copy. 1 3 MR. PREUSS: Let me tell you, he 1 4 wants to know what you can recall. He 1 5 doesn't want you to speculate on it. If 1 6 you recall, that's fine. If you don't, 1 7 don't speculate. 1 8 A. No, I don't know, then. 1 9 MR. TALLON: I want you to refer 2 0 to the second name on the top of the 2 1 letter, C.L. Clay. Who was Mr. C.L. Clay 2 2 in February 1970? 2 3 A. l have absolutely no idea. 2 4 Q. Do you know if Mr. Clay was a 2 5 M o ii s a ti I n employee? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISS OURI 1 53 HARTOLDMONOQ25417 1 A . No. 2 Q . Ho you know whether a memorandum 3 such as this exhibit -- was it your 4 practice to send memoranda such as this 5 exhibit to non-employees, that is to say, 6 outsiders? 7 A. The way it is written and the way 8 it is listed, he was an employee at the 9 main office of Monsanto, but I don't recall 1 0 him. 1 1 Q. Now, you referred a couple of 1 2 times to Mr. Pappageorge, the person to 1 3 whom this memorandum is addressed. What 1 4 was Mr. Pappageorge's position in February 15 1970? 1 6 A. At one point, and this is probably 1 7 the point after he got to this job, he was 1 8 responsible for the technical coordination 1 9 of fluids and some other chlorinated or 2 0 halogenated materials for that division. 2 1 Q. What do you mean by technical 2 2 coordination in that answer? 2 3 A. Well, there were sales 2 4 coordinators, you know, people that knew 2 5 who the customers were and what they used |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 154 HARTOLDMONOQ25418 1 it for and so forth, and then there were 2 people who liaised between the technical 3 branches, that is, research, development, 4 medical and so forth. And Pappageorge was 5 that guy for the fluid group at that time. C Q. Did Mr. Pappageorge have 1 particular responsibility for 8 PCB-containing fluids or chlorinated 9 products? 1 0 A. The fluid he had the 1 1 responsibility for, yes. 1 2 Q . I want to refer you to the third 1 3 paragraph which appears on the first page 1 4 of this February 19, 1970 memorandum, and 1 5 particularly to the sentence which begins, 1 6 "At the present time we are holding a 1 7 request from Carl Clay." 1 8 A . Yes. 1 9 Q. Do you have a present recollection 2 0 of the nature of the request referred to in 2 1 that paragraph? 2 2 A. No. But I do know what it was 2 3 about. And I knew why we did it, because 2 4 we did it frequently, and with other 2 5 products as well. If we had two affairs GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 5' HARTOLDMONOQ25419 i 1 going on connected with a single product, 2 connected with the health aspects of that 3 product, and we had a request for 4 something, we always had to ask the 5 r e q u e s ter. and in this case it's Clay, do 6 you w a n t us to w a i t u n t i 1 we have these 7 o t h e r data and sen d all of i t to this 8 c u s t o m e r or do you want us t o send it 9 piec emea1 . 1 0 Q . The reque s t e r was Carl Clay from 1 1 Texa s Eas tern? 1 2 A . 11 had to have been Carl Clay. 1 3 MR. PREUSS: You said Carl Clay 1 4 from Texas Eastern. 1 5 MR. TALLON: That's what I said. 1 6 Was the requester Carl Clay? 1 7 A. Carl Clay was a Monsanto employee 1 8 Q. Okay. Could you read that answer 1 9 back? 2 0 (The requested portion of the 2 1 record read by the reporter). 2 2 MR. TALLON: In your answer you 2 3 referred to if you had two affairs going 2 4 on. What are you referring to? 2 5 A. Well, if you're doing toxicology IORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 156 HARTOLDMON0025420 1 on aroclor fluids, you have a whole lot of 2 identifiable aroclors, and we were probably 3 runningtoxicity studies on individual 4 aroclors, or studies for what Carl Clay 5 wanted on the individual aroclors, and/or 6 aroclor blends, because our fluid blends 7 were not exclusively aroclor. 8 Q. And do you know if there was more 9 than one request pending from Texas 1 0 Eastern, is that what you're suggesting? 1 1 A. Yes, that's what I was suggesting. ] 2. Q. Do you know what those requests i. 1 3 were? 1 4 A. It probably was -- 15 MR. PREUSS : Do you know, is the 1 6 qu e s l i on . 1 7 A. No. No. I don't of my own 1 8 knowledge, no. 19 MR. TALLON: Do you remember the 2 0 nature of the request from Carl Clay to 2 1 discuss the toxicity of Turbinol? That is 2 2 to say, what was the request? 23 A. No. I don't know the specifics of 2 4 the request, no. 2 5 Q. And you wrote in that same IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 7 HARTOLDMONOQ25421 1 paragraph Turbinol 153 is principally PCBs? 2 A . V 1 r: . a Q Where d i d y o u a cquire that 4 inform a t ion? 5 A We knew w h a t w a s in all of t h e m . 6 Q Did you h a V e P r oduct inform a t i o n 7 in the m e d i c a 1 g r o u P d e s cribing the 8 c o n s t i t u e n t e 1 e m e n t s o f Monsanto pro d u c t s 9 includ i n g Turbin o 1 1 5 3 ? 1 0 A And the c o n t a m i nants, if th ey k n ] 1 litem, w e had the m , y e s 1 2 Q Did you b e 1 i e v e at the time y o u 1 3 wrote t h is memo t h a t T e x as Eastern 1 a c k e d 1 4 k n o w 1 e d g e that this P r o d uct is compo s e d o 1 5 p r i n c i pa 1 1 y PCBs ? 16 A No . ] 7 Q What is m e a n t by the phrase / "Th 1 8 q u e s t i o n that a r i s e s i s do we tell thi s 1 9 custom e r that t h i s p r o d u ct is compos e d o f 2 0 p r i n c i pa 11y PCBs " ? 2 1 A Well, I a s k e d the question o f t h 2 2 -- of B ill, who w o u 1 d h ave done the 2 3 answer i n g anyway , d o y o u want to tel 1 the 2 4 that i t ' s PCBs a n d / o r PCBs and the e s t e r 2 5 that w a s in t h e r e o r n o t . And we we r e GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 158 HARTOLDMONOQ25422 1 studying some of that blend. And do you 2 want us to wait until we've finished and 3 send the whole thi ng together o r send i 4 piecemeal . We had a toxicity -- a 5 detailed toxicity summary of the a r o c 1 o 6 involved. Okay? Do you want m e to sen 7 Clay that and then later send him his 8 blend, because he knew the blend that 9 Turbinol represented, because it contained 1 0 a phosphate ester. 1 1 Q. When you wrote this memorandum, 1 2 did you have knowledge as to whether or not 1 3 Texas Eastern knew that Turbinol 153 1 4 contained PCBs? 15 A. This letter wrote when I saw 1 6 this letter and this correspondence with 1 7 Texas Eastern, I didn't know they w ere even 1 8 corresponding with them. I frequen t ly 1 9 didn't. They sent me letters conne c t e d 2 0 with -- you saw the German letter, I never 2 1 had any idea that they were selling the 2 2 stuff in Germany, even. But here's a 2 3 letter, what do we do. We answered the 2 4 same way we do others. We tell the Germans 2 5 we'll send somebody over if we have t o . [GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 9 HARTOLDMONOQ25423 1 And we probably from this we probably 2 sent somebody down and - - t o talk to Texas 3 Eastern with Clay p r e s e n t . 4 Q For what p u r p o s e ? 5 A . They obvi o u s 1 y show e d some 6 interest or we w o u 1 dn ' t have got the 7 letter . It looks to me like there is some 8 urgency from Clay' s letter. 9 Q. But do yo u have a p resent 1 0 recollection of wh ether or n ot Mr. Clay 1 1 sent you a memoran d u m or a 1 e 11 e r 1 2 describing the nat u r e of the inquiry to 1 3 him, if there was one? 1 4 A. I suspect the -- I suspect the 1 5 inquiry went to Ke 1 1 y . 16 MR. PREUSS: Do you know whether 1 7 Clay sent you anything in writing 1 8 describing the inquiry, is the question. 1 9 A . No. 2 0 MR. TALLON: Do you know whether 2 1 Dr. Kelly received such an inquiry? 2 2 A. Somebody did. 2 3 MR. PREUSS: He asked you whether 2 4 or not -- 2 5 A. I don't know. \ GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 6 01 HARTOLDMON0025424 1 MR. TALLON: Okay. So, in other 2 words, you don't have knowledge of the 3 origination of the inquiry that resulted in 4 your writing this memorandum? 5 A . No. 6 Q . I f you look at the second P a g 7 the me m o r a n d u m , Mr. Garrett, there i s a sentence which states, "In the case of the 9 Texas Eastern request, they want to know 1 0 w h a I l)w.' decomposition of products of 11 Turbin ol 153 would be." Do you see that? 1 2 A . Yes. 1 3 Q D o e s read i n g t h a t sent e n c e ref r e s h 1 4 Y o u r r e c oil e c t i o n a s t o t h e i n q uir y or 1 5 r e quest fro m Texas E a s t e r n 1 6 A . N o . And t o tel 1 you the truth r ] 7 b a s n d on t h e date. I don ' t know why we said 1 8 t h at fin a 1 s e n t e n c e , but w e did . 11 1 9 P r o b a b 1 y w a s part o f the b oiler plate that 2 0 w e n t to eve r y b o d y , I don ' t know 2 1 Q W h o is t h e w e i n that sentence 2 2 A . M e and K e 1 1 y and Wheeler, who 2 3 a n s w e r e d a 1 1 these c r a z y letters, 2 4 Q W e re you the sole author of this 2 5 d o c u m e n t o r would M r . Wheeler -- GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 1 HARTOLDMON0025425 1 A . No, I wrote the document 2 Q . When you wrote in this memorandum 3 that we cannot give this information to the 4 customer without revealing that it is 5 principally a chlorinated organic, did you 6 believe that the customer lacked that 7 information? 8 A. That what? . 9 Q. Did you believe that the customer 1 0 lacked that information? 1 1 A . No. 1 2 Q. Then how can you -- 13 A. I don't know what the basis is. I 1 4 don't think there is any doubt he knew what 1 5 it was. He had it in the literature at the 1 6 time, for God's sake. 1 7 Q. So your sentence, we can not give 1 8 this information to the customer without 1 9 revealing that it is principally a 2 0 chlorinated organic is meaningless, is that 2 1 your testimony? 22 A. I'm fishing -- 23 MR. PREUSS: I'll object. 24 A. I'mfishing for Pappageorge to 2 5 tell me I can tell him that. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 162 HARTOLDMONOQ25426 1 MR. PREUSS: I object to the form 2 of the question as argumentative. 3 MR. TALLON: Can I have the 4 quo:. I i .in back, please? 5 (The requested portion of the 6 r c r (i i (1 read by the reporter). 7 A. At this date - 8 MR. PREUSS: There is no question, 9 Mr. Garrett. ] 0 A. There is a period of time -- 1 1 MR. PREUSS: There is no ] 2 q u e Li on. 13 A. No question. There is a period of 1 4 time in company, big corporation movements 1 5 where some people do something and other 1 6 people don't, and you must get everybody 1 7 together to do it,and that's what I was 1 8 trying to do. I remember this because we 1 9 were t r y i ng to -- it was in our 2 0 1 i t e r a t u r e , we sent them the literature 2 1 bundle that showed i t . 2 2 MR. TALLON: So - 2 3 MR. PREUSS: Wait for a question, 2 4 please . 2 8 MR. TALLON: What is the |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 3 HARTOLDMON0025427 i justification for making the statement that 2 we cannot give this information to the 3 customer without revealing that it is 4 principally a chlorinated organic with the 5 statement that the customer knew it? How 6 do you reconcile those two? 7 MR. PREUSS: I'll object to the 8 1- o r m of Ihe question as argumentative. 9 A. A person asked it from Texas 1 0 Eastern. ] 1 MR. TALLON: What does the person 1 2 who asked it have to do with the 1 3 reconciliation? ] 4 A. You have to understand what he was 1 5 asking . 1 6 Q D o you k now w h o that per s o n w as? 1 7 A . N o . B u t I h a v e a f e e 1 i n g i t was 1 8 probably s o m e b o d y t h a t m a y not ha v e h a d the 1 9 technical b a c k g r o u n d t o u nderstan d w h a t we 2 0 were talk i n g a b o u t . 2 1 Q Did y o u make a r e s p o n s e t o t h e 2 2 request f r o m T e x a s E a s t e r n ? 2 3 A . You b e t c h a . M o s t likely I t 2 4 depended o n w h e t h e r I w a s there o r not If 2 5 I didn't. Kelly d id i t o r Elmer d i d i t GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOU IS, MISSOURI 164 HARTOLDMONOQ25428 1 Q And did you make a response i n 2 wi i i i ng? 3 A. I don't know from -- somebody may 4 have gone to Chicago and done -- and did 5 it . 6 MR. PREUSS: He asked if you knew. 7 sir. 8 A. I don't know. 9 MR. TALLON: Did you visit with 1 0 any representatives of Texas Eastern in 1 1 order to respond to the request which is ] 2. referred to in this memorandum? 1 3 A. I don't know. And the reason I 1 4 don't know is because I gave several talks 1 5 up there, and one on PCBs to the industrial ] 6 hygiene section of Chicago, and if that guy 1 7 was present, that's where he got the 1 8 information. 1 9 Q. What is the connection between 2 0 Chicago and Texas Eastern? 2 1 A. I don't have the foggiest. 2 2 Q. What is the basis for the 2 3 statement? 2 4 A. It's in connection with the Great 2 5 Lakes study. We weren't studying Houston |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 5 HARTOLDMONOQ25429 1 Bay. 2 Q . Right. But now I'm referring -- 3 the memorandum appears to be devoted to two 4 topics. The first -- 5 A. It's possible you're right. 6 Q. The first topic appears to be a 7 discussion with Clarance W. Klassen to 8 discuss the PCB problem which had been 9 brought up at Lake Michigan State 1 0 Pollution, correct? 1 1 A . Yes. 1 2 Q. And the memorandum states that, "I 1 3 gave Klassen the general party line 1 4 concerning PCB, its industrial uses and its 1 5 analysis," correct? 1 6 A. That's correct. 17 MR. PREUSS: That's one of the 1 8 things it says. 19 MR. TALLON: Thank you, Mr. 2 0 Preuss. When you get the opportunity, I'm 2 1 sure you can redirect. In the meantime, 2 2 I'd appreciate your not continuing to 2 3 interrupt. 24 MR. PREUSS: Well, I would 2 5 appreciate you not just pulling sentences GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 6 HARTOLDMON0025430 1 out of paragraphs. 2 MR. TALLON: When you want to 3 examine the witness, you may do so. If you 4 have an objection, state it. 5 MR. PREUSS: I object to the 6 question as argumentative. 7 MR. TALLON: The other issue which 8 appears to be addressed by this memorandum 9 is -- ] 0 A . You're c o r r e c t / i t ' s separ a t e d . 1 1 Q Is the q u e s t i o n of Texas E astern? 1 2 A . Correct. It's s e p a rated. 1 3 Q Now, the quest ion. thereto re, and 1 4 I just want the re cord to be clear on this 1 5 is, do y o u remembe r g i v i n g a respon s e to ] 6 the r e q u e s t from T e x a s E a s t e r n w h i c h is 1 7 referred to in t h i s mem orand u m ? 1 8 A . No. I do know the rest of it v e r 1 9 well. 2 0 Q The rest of it -- 2 1 A . The part about K 1 a s sen and the 2 2 Great Lak e s study. \ 2 3 Q For now I ' m go i n g t o focus the 2 4 questioni ng solely on the pa r t r e 1 a ted to 2 5 Texas Eastern. |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 167 HARTOLDMONOQ25431 1 A . No, I don't. 2 Q. And do you know whether a response 3 was made by a Monsanto representative to 4 Texas Eastern, whether or not you made the 5 response? 6 A. I went to Texas with somebody for 7 something, and it had to do with fluids. 8 and I - - I wish I remembered . 9 Q Do you rem ember where i n Texas you 1 0 traveled to? 1 1 A . Houston . One of the b i g o f f i c e 1 2 b u i 1 d i n gs in downto wn Houston. 1 3 Q And do you remember th e n a m e s o f 1 4 any of the people y ou met with? 1 5 A . No. I just remember th a t I got 1 6 sent do wn there, or called down there. and 1 7 went to -- hell, i t could have been the 1 8 H u m b e 1 Building, I don't do kno w . It c o u 1 d 1 9 have be en with Humb el Oil, whic h w e had a 2 0 lot of dealings with. 2 1 Q Do you rem ember approx i m a t e 1 y when 2 2 that vi sit was? 2 3 A . Probably i n the ' 7 0 ' s . And when 2 4 in the ' 7 0 ' s , I don ' t know. 2 5 Q Do you rem ember with w horn You |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 8 HARTOLDMON0025432 1 traveled from Monsanto if you traveled 2 with anyone from Monsanto? 3 A . No. 4 Q. Do you remember anything about the 5 visit to Houston other than you made it? 6 A. I'm afraid I've led you astray, 7 really, in a way. I went to Houston many a times to talk to the Humbel people and to 9 talk to Shell technical people. That was 1 0 before they moved a great many of them 1 1 out. And I knew t h o s e people very w ell. 1 2 And we disc u s s e d a lot. i n c 1 u ding f 1 u i d s r 1 3 and be cause they us e d them, t o o , in t h e i r 1 4 field group s , field e q u i p m e n t , and I don t 1 5 know. The reason I get mixed up with Te x a s 1 6 Easter n , my sister work e d the re and I w a s 1 7 in H o u s t o n one day and I saw her, I went by 1 8 and saw her in her o f f i c e in that da m n 1 9 b u i 1 d i n g . Now, what wa s I do in g the re? I 2 0 don't know. So the b e s t idea is to say w e 2 1 don't know. 2 2 Q . I to if i! from your answer that as 2 3 you sit here today and testify you don't 2 4 h a v o ,i i cco] lection of having met with 2 5 representatives of Texas Eastern for |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 9 HARTOLDMONOQ25433 1 business purposes? 2 A . No. A clear one. 3 Q Okay. 4 A. Clear recollection. A clear 5 recollection. 6 Q. Well, when you use the word clear 1 in your response it makes me wonder whether 8 there is anything other than what you've 9 told me so far that you remember about a ] 0 co in in unication with Texas Eastern 1 1 representatives? 1 2. A. T'm going to depart for aminute 1 3 and give you a five minute lecture of 1 4 something that you need to know that 1 5 chemical companies and technical producers 1 6 of hazardous materials did. They followed 1 7 what was called the DuPont rule. We did 1 8 not completely follow that rule, but to a 1 9 certain extent we did. And that is, you do 2 0 not tell technical information except to 2 1 technical people who are qualified to 2 2 understand it. That's DuPont's standard, 2 3 it's written in their concrete. And we had 2 4 a hell of a time, because our plants 2 5 couldn't get information from DuPont. We |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 0 HARTOLDMON0025434 1 could, but the plants couldn't, under that 2 premise. Because they -- their medical 3 people knew our medical people and knew we 4 knew what we were talking about and they 5 would send it to us. In respect to many 6 oil companies, with the exception of 7 Standard Oil of New Jersey and Shell, we 8 didn't know if they had people who knew how 9 to deal with the data. And part of this 1 0 may have had to do with play on the phone, 1 1 finding out if Texas Eastern has got 1 2 technical people that can understand these 1 3 data. I'm sorry, I'm not criticizing Texas 1 4 Eastern, but you'd be surprised at some of 1 5 the places that they end up. And so we 1 6 began to follow generally that same 1 7 premise. You talk about TLV, do you know ] 8 W h a 1 r\ TLV is? 1 9 Q Me? 2 0 A . Yes. 2 1 Q Why don't you tell m e ? 2 2 A . It's a thresho Id 1 i m it value 2 3 Does anybody know what M TD is and all 2 4 other things? That's the point. How can 2 5 you give them this kind -- these kind of CORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 1 HARTOLDMONOQ25435 1 data. looking at the data we gave to some 2 of these people, TLVs, MTLs, LD 50's, LD 3 100's, that sort of stuff. Now, if you 4 handed all that stuff out to somebody that 5 had no one to interpret it for them within 6 their staff would be foolish and we 7 wouldn't give it to them. And I'm afraid 8 n. h y b e that's what this represents. In 9 other words, to Clay, tangentially, I'm ] 0 s a y .i n g do they have anybody there that 1 1 knows how to read it. ] 2. Q. Is it.fair to say that as of 1 3 February 1970 your understanding was that 1 4 the'to were people at Texas Eastern who 1 5 didn't have information about the 1 6 constituent elements of Turbinol? 1 7 A. Telling them that we in the 1 8 medical department did not know i f Texas 1 9 Eastern had people in their H o u s t o n place 2 0 wherever they were going to get i t , that 2 1 could interpret properly, o r we ' d s end 2 2. somebody down that could for them That' 2 3 the w h o1 e point. 2 4 Q Is it fair to say that the last 2 5 paragraph of your memorandum on the bo I. tom GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 172 HARTOLDMONOQ25436 1 of page 1 of the memo, top of page 2 2 7(-flccts your understanding that Texas 3 Eastern lacked the information referred to 4 in Mini paragraph? 5 A . Absolutely not. 6 Q . There is no indication from this 7 memo that Texas Eastern had that 8 information, is there, Mr. Garrett? 9 A. No. But we and Pappageorge and 1 0 Howard Bergen worked together. We knew 1 1 handing raw toxicity data, uninterpreted, 1 2. to some people was foolish and dangerous. 1 3 That it would be easier to go explain to 1 4 them, if they had no one who could explain 1 5 it to them. And many people didn't have 1 6 these kind of people on their staff. I 1 7 don't even know, if I'd have been running 1 8 Texas Eastern, if I would have had them on 1 9 the staff. Why would he do it? They're 2 0 transmitting materials, they have a hundred 2 1 or two materials to be worried about, not a 2 2 zillion like a chemical company. But we 2 3 were asking the question, probably, to 2 4 Pappageorge and Bergen, bey, should we do 2 5 this or should we wait until we've got this GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISS OUR I 17 3 HARTOLDMONOQ25437 1 thing .interpreted with the results of some 2 ailii i i i onal studies before we do it. It's 3 strange that I didn't state in there why 4 d n i i ' i we send s oiebody there to go with 5 t o see Texas Ea stern, t o make sure they 6 k(ti w wliat we're talking about . Because 7 misunderstood toxicity data has got - - oh, 8 my goodness, we've even been in court suits 9 over it, violation suits over it, 1 0 misunderstanding of the numbers, and what 1 1 the letters, all the LD 5 0 ' s and that sort 1 2 of stuff mean. So we knew better. I 1 3 didn't know what it meant when I came to 1 4 Si . I. o u i s . ] 5 MR. PREUSS: Wait for a question, 1 6 Mr. Garrett. 1 7 MR. TALLON: Other than through my 1 8 description this morning, are you familiar 1 9 w j t li Transwestern Pipeline Company? 2 0 A. No. Other than knowing that it's 2 1 a gas piper on the -- going west out of 2 2 southwest Texas. 2 3 Q. And I take it from that answer 2 4 you've never communicated with any 2 b representative of the Transwestern Pipeline IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS, MISSOUR I 17 4 HARTOLDMONOQ25438 1 Company? 2 A . No. That is not -- that's 3 incorrect, it's possible that I did, b\i(. I 4 didn't recall it. 5 Q . You don't have a recollection as 6 you sit here today? 7 A. I don't have a recollection, 8 that's right. 9 Q. You testified, I believe, that you 1 0 didn't know who Mr. Clay was? ] 1 A . No. ]2 MR. PREUSS: Other than a Monsanto 1 3 employee. 14 MR. TALLON: Correct. 1 5 A. He must have been in St. Louis. 1 6 And I d e d u c e that from the address after 1 7 his n a m e . The address would have had 1 8 H o u s t o n on it i f he was in the Hous ton 1 9 sale s off i c e , i t would have had HOU on it 2 0 Q. Is there any significance to the 2 1 fact that Mr. Bergen's name is listed first 2 2 as between Bergen and Clay? 2 3 A. Most likely Bergen was Clay's 2 4 boss. 2 b Q. During the '70' s did you have a IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 75 HARTOLDMON0025439 1 practice w i t h re s p e c t to keeping f i 1 e s o r 2 periodica 1 1 y d e s t r o y i n g them? 3 A . W e peri o d i c a 1 1 y destroyed 4 correspon d e nee f i 1 e s . Now -- and b e 1 i e v e 5 me, this 1 e d to one of us reading most o f 6 those fil e s . That w a s the biggest pain i n I the tail y o u ' v e ever seen, it took days t o 8 do it, an d pull out w hat we knew a s 9 literatur e , and that we wanted in our 1 0 literatur e file. And some of thes e kin d o f 1 1 letters would go in the literature file ] 2. because it mentions a company we had not 1 3 dealt with before in our view, that's Texas 1 4 Rastern . Otherwise, it would have gone in 1 5 the junk or gone into the -- in the 1 6 storage. ] 7 Q I n your answer when you used the 1 8 terms " we" and " our" to ref e r t o the fact 1 9 that we had not dealt with T e x a s Eastern, 2 0 you're referring to the medical group? 2 1 A. That's right. 2 2 Q. Based on your understanding of the 2 3 way that files were maintained at Monsanto 2 4 in February 1970, where would a written 2 5 request from Texas Eastern have been |G0RE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 76 HARTOLDMON0025440 1 maintained? 2 A. It probably would have been in the 3 correspondence file of Howard Bergen, and 4 it ' i; probably been destroyed long since, 5 since Howard's been gone many years. 6 Q. In the '70's, how long did you 7 keep your files, if you had a regular 8 practice? 9 A. Don't laugh, but when we couldn't 1 0 get anything else in the file it was time 1 ] to strip files. And we had a bank of 1 2 files, and Monsanto had some kind of 1 3 something in their ear that irritated them 1 4 about those files. And these people threw 1 8 away most of our files, lawyers, anyway, 1 6 just from pure orneriness of lawyers, and 1 7 then they give us hell because we couldn't 1 8 find things they threw away. He's just 1 9 representing other people, but our own 2 0 lawyers did that. I think what you mean is 2 1 how long are correspondence files held? 2 2 Q. Sure. 2 3 A. How long are data files held? 2 4 Correspondence files, probably a couple of 2 5 years, depending on the subject and |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 177 HARTOLDMONOQ25441 1 depending on the individual that wrote it. 2 He may have wanted them because he's still 3 dealing in the same ball park. If it was a 4 data file letter or one of importance that 5 we felt brought up a new subject we may 6 have kept it in the data file. And 7 Monsanto does have a red book. 8 Q A red book 7 9 A . A red book ] 0 Q What i s a red book? 1 1 A . F i 1 e clear a n c e book, inst r u c t i o n s 1 2 clear i n g f i 1 e s a n d k e eping them c 1 e a red 1 3 Q Wa s s u c h a book in existe nee i n 14 ] 970? 1 b A . If it w a s , I never saw i t . 1 6 Q When was the first boo k put i n t o 1 7 a s best y o u recall? 1 8 A . I saw t h em back in the late 1 7 0 ' s , 1 9 the first book c arm e out. 2 0 Q. Did there come a time during the 2 1 course of your career at Monsanto when 2 2 files relating to PCBs were collected? 2 3 A. I think every one of my files were 2 4 collected at least a thousand times for 2. 5 court suits of one kind or another. No, [GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 178 HARTOLDMONOQ25442 1 that ' s not and I got them back usually 2 in very disorderly arrangement. 3 Q. Was there ever a particular focus 4 1 hat you recall in the collection of files 5 relating to PCBs? 6 MR. PREUSS: I'll object to the 7 form. What do you mean by focus? 8 A. I think they did pick them up for 9 PCBs. But I ' m saying almost yes. but I ' m >i i--| i--| 1 0 not r e a - - they `took so m any back i n 1 1 the 1 a t e ' 7 0 ' s and early '80' s t h at I can't 1 2 t .1 1 1 y say I really can't s a y . 1 3 Q. Do you know who was in charge of 1 4 the collection process? 1 5 A . Well -- 16 MR. PREUSS: Do you know who was 1 7 in charge of the collection process? ] 8 A. There is a whole number of people 1 9 that have been in charge. But the problem 2 0 -- we're getting mixed up with the red 2 1 book. You're talking about clearance of 2 2 files, just to keep the file cabinets down, 2 3 came because of the legal implications of 2 4 many of our files. And we asked the law 2 5 department to help peel files in response |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 9 HARTOLDMON0025443 1 to the red book demands because of what 2 they wanted or didn't want. And we'd keep 3 what they s aid. yes . And it got to the 4 point where they d i d n ' t -- their e n t h u s i a s m 5 for coming over and going through our f i 1 e s 6 turned out to be z e r o or m i n u s n u m b e r s . 7 But we did some o f it. I think e very 8 company has been i n the same ball game. 9 what do you keep , what don ' t you keep. and 1 0 particularly in the medical and industrial 1 1 hygiene occupational safety business. I 1 2 don't know. 1 3 Q. Do you recollect the names of any 1 4 of the people whom you remember to be 1 5 involved with the process of collecting the 1 6 files related to PCBs? 1 7 A . No. 1 8 Q Do you know who L ,. A . Watt is? 1 9 A . Watt, W-a-t- t ? 2 0 Q Yes. W-a-t- t . 2 1 A . No. Either no or I don't recall 22 MR. PREUSS: If you're going on to 2 3 another subject, I'd like to take a break. 2 4 (Recess) 2 5 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number' |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI I 1 8 O' HARTOLDMONOQ25444 1 115 mark'd for identification). 2 M R . TALLON : I've asked the 3 r e porter to mark as E x h i b i t 115 a dor u m u n t 4 b c u r i rig production numbers Tran 0 17 18 1 5 t h rough 183 . Mr . G a r r e t t , I w o u Id as k t h a t 6 y <> u please take a 1 o o k at that a n d w h e n you 7 h a ve comple ted your review to in d i c a t e s o 8 MR. PREUSS: Would you like him to 9 read it all? 1 0 MR. TALLON: Sure. Did you review 1 1 that document, Mr. Garrett? 1 2 A . Yes. 1 3 Q. Can you identify thedocument for 1 4 therecord? 1 5 A. I apparently wrote it, but I don't 1 6 -- I don't know when at all. 1 7 Q. The first sentence on the first 1 8 page of the document states, andI quote, 1 9 "Current data indicates that PCB type 2 0 materials may be more hazardous to working 2 1 personnel than had previously been 2 2 considered." You wrote that sentence? 2 3 A . Yes. 2 4 Q. Do you know what data is referred 2 5 to in that sentence? PORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 181 HARTOLDMONOQ25445 1 A Some additional data on airborne 2 contaminants from other exposures, not from 3 us . 4 Q. What was the source of that data? 5 A. I believe it was ---- it came from 6 a Irip that was made to Europe and some of 7 the discussion with the Europeans, and a particularly the Dutch, and the use of 9 these materials. ] o Q. I'm sorry. what was the end l l your sentence? Part icularly the D u t 1 2. and -- 1 3 A. In connection with use of these 1 4 materials. 1 5 Q. Did icpresentatives of Monsanto 1 6 make that trip to Holland, or wherever in 1 7 E u 7- u p e it was made? 1 8 A . 11 would hav e been the c a s e , in o s t 1 9 .1 i k c. 1 y . I can't be a b s o 1 u t e 1 y s u r e 2 0 Q We re you one o f t h o s e w h o went t o 2 1 Europe? 2 2 A . No . 2 3 Q Was Dr. Kelly -2 4 A . I ' V e been in Europe, but not in 2 5 this case. |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 2 HARTOLDMONOQ25446 1 Q I n c o n n e c t i o n with this -- 2 A . I t could have been Dr. K e1 1 y , it 3 could hav e been a n y b o d y . I t could have 4 been some o n e else 5 Q I t could have been some of the 6 people in the product group? 7 MR. PREUSS: He asked if you 8 knew. 9 A . No, I don't know. 10 MR. TALLON: What was the 1 1 information or the import of the newdata? 1 2 A. I don't recall. 1 3 Q. Do you recall what about the new 1 4 data indicated that there was achange or a 1 5 greater indication of hazard than had 1 6 previously been believed? 1 7 A. That's what it says. 18 Q. Right. Do you know what it was 1 9 about the data thatwas different? 2 0 A. No. But it had to be something 2 1 connected with it being toxic in some form. 2 2 Q. Can you be more specific than 2 3 that ? 24 A. No. Because I don't recall it. 25 Q . Thedocument is not dated. Do you GORE REPORTING COMPANY 1 ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 3 HARTOLDMONOQ25447 1 believe that this is a document that you 2 pie pa red in theregular course of your work 3 for Monsanto? 4 A . It may have been part of a report 5 or may have been anadditive forletters 6 written connected with it. 7 Q. Was either of such preparations 8 within your regular course ofwork for 9 Monsanto? 1 f) A . Yes. 1 1 Q And you intended the information 1 2 here to be r e 1 ie d upon by its ] 3 recipients? 1 4 A . Yes. 3 5 Q. The paragraph goes on to read, 1 6 "Based- on these facts, the control of 1 7 exposure of workers where PCBs are 1 8 man ufactured or used should b e re-exami n e d 1 9 a n d made more restric t i v e . " You wrote 2 0 that? 2 1 A . Yes. 2 2 o . Do you recol 1 e c t t h e restricti o n s 2 3 t o which you were ref erring i n that 2 4 par a graph and in that s e n t e n c e ? 2 5 A . I don't know . I do n ' t know GORE REPORTING COMPANY S T LOUIS , MISSOUR I 184 HARTOLDMON0025448 1 exactly what -- we turned around right 2 below it and put down the standards. 3 Q. Right below it, are you referring 4 to lhe next sentence? 5 A. Right below that statement we say 6 "Currently, the American Conference of / Governmental Industrial Hygienists shows" 8 thus and so. 9 Q. And the paragraph concludes that 1 0 "Very limited analysis in the aroclor 1 1 department indicates that the airborne 1 2 concentrations are below these numbers," ] 3 c. o r r e c t ? 1 4 A . That's right. 1 5 Q . Do you remember whether the new 1 6 data suggested to you that the American 1 7 Conference of Governmental Industrial 1 8 Hygienists standard was too high? 1 9 A. No. I don't know. It may have 2 0 indicated that it was possible they would 2 1 reduce it, but I don't know. I don't know 2 2 what occasioned that particular sequence of 2 3 sentences . 2 4 Q . Are you able to judge the 2 5 approximate date that you wrote this memo GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 185 HARTOLDMONOQ25449 1 by the reference to the particular 2 threshold limit values referred to in the 3 first paragraph? 4 A . T would suspect sometime in the 5 mid ' 7 0 ' s . G Q. And what is that suspicion based 7 on? 8 A. The- local inn and the time the 9 A C GI H came out with their standards. 1 0 Q . When did the ACGIH come out with 1 1 its standards? 1 2 A . T t was in 1971 or ' 7 2 1 3 Q I S the ACGIH still i n 1 4 today, so far as you know? 1 5 A . Yes. 1 G Q. Do you know where the ACGIH is 1 7 headquartered? 1 8 A. Well, it is an organization made 1 9 up of governmental hygienists, and it was 2 0 headquartered in Cincinnati at one time. I 2 1 think today it -- I don't know that it - 2 2 that the ACGIH still has the TLV 2 3 committees, I think that OSHA has them, and 2 4 they took -- the ACGIH standards had their 2 5 beginning when OSHA began putting out the |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 86 HARTOLDMON0025450 1 standards as federal law, and they used 2 ACGIH standards initially. And as is the 3 case, they change them when there seems to 4 be evidence that they need changing. 5 Q. Is the ACGIH a membership 6 a n i z a t i o n , o r was it? 7 A . It i s a members hip organization 8 i e s t r i c t i o n , you h a v e to be a 9 e r n mental e m p 1 o y e e . Now, that's the 10 a d e s t a p p 1 i c a t ion. The university 1 1 pie and that s ort are con s i d e r e d 12 e r n mental e m p 1 o y e e s . But no industry 1 3 n o direct r e g u 1 a t o r y p e o pie could be 1 4 But, otherwise, it is a membership affair, 1 5 you pay dues and everything. 1 6 Q. I want to refer you to page 3 of 1 7 that exhibit, and in particular to the 1 8 caption "Environmental Contamination." Do 1 9 you see that? 2 0 A . Yes. 2 1 Q. The document states that "We would 2 2 recommend that all means be exercised, 2 3 eitht'i through engineering changes or 2 4 through work practice changes to minimize 2 8 c n v i i on mental releases, either by air. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 187 HARTOLDMONOQ25451 1 water or through solid residues." And it 2 goo:. Hi, t l, say that, "In short, we would 3 recommend that all means within the limits 4 of p r n iK'in i r feasibility be utilized to 5 limit releases of these materials int u (lie 6 cnvi itiii ii. Do you see that? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q. You wrote that? 9 A . Yes. 1 0 Q. Who is the "we" referred to? 1 1 A. Monsanto. 12 Q . And what,was the basis for the 1 3 recommendation that all means be exercised 1 4 to minimize environmental releases? 15 A. Obviously, there was some data 1 6 produced somewhere, and that is -- and 1 7 that sentence, or that paragraph is sort, of 1 8 standard boilerplate for use in -- we 1 9 should always, in a material, reduce it to 2 0 the economic - to the engineering degree 2 1 we can with an economic reality. They 2 2. should do it to everything, and we did at 2 3 Monsanto. 2 4 Q You should do it to everything? 2 5 A . Everything, that'1 s true. |G 0 R E REf OK'i'.lNG COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 88 HARTOLDMONOQ25452 1 Q. All materials? 2 A . All materials. 3 Q . Not jus! f. o x i <'materials? 4 A. Well, that are foreign to the body 5 itself. That's probably in the ind ns I rial 6 hygienist's prayer. 7 Q. Do you have knowledge of t. lie 8 env.iionmental caution suggested by the last 9 paragraph of that exhibit ever being 1 0 communicated to either Texas Eastern or 1 1 Transwestern personnel? ]2 A. It's beenpublished in the 1 3 published literature. ] 4 Q . When? ]5 A. I don't know. Probably numerous 1 6 times. But it has been published and there ] 7 have horn publications, a number of 1 8 publications covering contamination of ] 9 non- soluble material such as the PCBs and 2 0 fluids of that type on the ground and in 2 1 waterways and in the marine environment and 2 2 so forth. 2 3 Q. When was the first time that such 2 4 information was published? 2 5 A. We did some work that was never IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 9 HARTOLDMONOQ25453 1 published or someone did some work I 2 saw that was never published, and the work 3 was with fish, and because the bottoms were 4 not -- natural bottoms, there was nothing 5 happened, the stuff is too heavy and too 6 non-soluble to doanything at all. Further 7 down the line there were some elegant 8 studies done about fluids, chlorinated 9 fluids that were non-soluble in water or ] 0 essentiallynon-soluble in water, which 1 1 means they could be partially soluble, but 1 2 there is so little that you can't prove it, 1 3 what their effect had on aquatic marine ]. 4 environments. ] Fi Q. And were those studies published? 16 A. Yes and no. They were published 1 7 in -- many of them were published in the 1 8 literature, in the fish and wildlife 1 9 literature, biological literature. Some of 2 0 them were published by agencies. They're 2 1 considered published, but the government 2 2 laboratories, biological laboratories who 2 3 do their pollution technical work publish a 2 4 lot of stuff in their own publications. 2 b Q. When you're referring to fish and GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 0 HARTOLDMONOQ25454 1 w i 1 d 1 i fe publications, w hat are you 2 ref e t i i 1 i fj 1 ; V 3 A . Fish or biology technical 4 pub1 ic ati ons . 5 Q . And when is the first time that 6 you r e collect seeing a p ublication i n a V 1. i s h a nd wildlife public ation relati n g to 8 PCB to xi ci ty? 9 A . To my knowledge , the first one I 1 0 ever s aw was a Californi a report wri 1 ten ] 1 h H e l 1 l h e ' 7 1! ' S s o m e t i m e . 1 2 Q . Do you recollec t the n am e o T t. h e 1 3 join 11 ci 1 nr publication? 1 4 A . No . 1 3 Q . Do you remember the name of the 1 6 a u t h o r or authors? 1 7 A . No, f don't. 1 8 Q . Do you remember anything at a 1. 1 1 9 a b o u i the publication to which you've just 2 0 referred? 2 1 A. Tf T had my literature files I 2 2 could, but I don't. 2 3 Q . And where ar e those literature 2 4 files today if they exist? 2 h A. Very likely in Monsanto's |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 1 HARTOLDMONOQ25455 1 inci nerator. But I don't know where they 2 ari 3 Q. v,,i had testified a little bit 4 earl ier today that Monsanto used Indus!, rial E Riot est for toxicity work, is that correct? 6 A . That's correct. 7 Q. ThTough what period of time did 8 you use Industrial Biotest? 9 MR. PREUSS: Did Monsanto use? 1 0 MR. TALLON: Yes. ] ] A. I don't know, because I didn't do 1 2 i t , the toxicology people did it. 1 3 Q. Who are the toxicology people to 1 4 whom you are referring? ] 5 A. Dr. Hunt, who is now deceased, 1 6 E 1 m e r Wheeler, who headed it, who is now 1 7 d e. c c a s d . You 're going to h a v e a fun time 1 8 find i n g these people. I don't know that we 1 9 h a d any - I knew some of the people that 2 0 were i n the b i otest group. but weren't with 2 ] Mods an to. Those are the people that dealt 2 2 with Biotest for Monsanto. 2 3 Q. I take it from your answer that it 2 4 was not part of your responsibility to deal 2 b with R 3 O t. (IS t ? |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 92 HARTOLDMONOQ25456 1 A. I used the data. 2 ( T i a ii sw .. t < t i, n r p n s i t i o ii Exhibit Number 3 116mark'd for i d e n t. i f i im f i on ) . 4 MR. TAI.I.ON: Would you take a few 5 moments,please, and review t h a 1 , Mr. C Cl ;i i | . ! ! V 7 A . All right. 8 Q H a V e you revi ewed that document? 9 A . Yes 1 0 Q Can you i d e n t i f y it f o r the 1 1 record? ] 2 A . i 1 ' :; n 1 ( 1 1 (- T' to Elmer Wheeler 1 3 about PCB a n d Escambia Bay and the i lit e r o s t 1 4 the F .1 n i i <1 a a u Lhoritie s have a b out it. 1 5 Q Did you autho r t hat di. c u iii on t ? 1 6 A . T h 1 s one, yes 1 7 Q And that is a document t h a l you ] 8 a u 1 11 i i i i i! 1 Tl 1 he regula r course of your work 1 9 atMonsanto? 2 0 A . Yes. 2 1 Q. And you .intended Mr. Wheeler to 2 2 rely on the information reflected in the 2 3 memcMd ml u m ? 2 4 A . V - .; . 2 8 Q. And the memorandum is written |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 3 HARTOLDMONOQ25457 1 about a meeting or series of meetings in 2 August 1969? 3 A . Yes. 4 Q. And you wrote it on or about 5 August 26, 1969? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. There is a big blank space on Lite 8 1 i i s 1 p a g e of the document, do you see 9 that? ] 0 A . Yes . 1 1 Q I s there a reason why that's 1 2 there, o r - - ] 3 A . i don't know. I have n o idea. 1 4 don't t h ink they blanked anyth i ng out. 1 5 Q D o you remember leavin g a big 1 6 white s p ace in your memo? 1 7 A . W e could have had some t h i n g pas 1 8 in there o n the original memo. I t could 1 9 have bee n s omething pasted, but I don't 2 0 know. I would be more inclined t o think 2 1 that the r e was something pasted o n there 2 2 Q M r . Preuss, are you aw are o f 2 3 whether or not t'h at white space constitutes 2 4 a redaction of some sort? 25 MR. PREUSS: I have no idea. |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 4 HARTOLDMON0025458 1 MR. TALLON: The memorandum to Mr. 2 Wheeler refers to a number of different 3 people. In particular, there is a 4 reference in the second to last paragraph 5 on the first page to John Spano. Do you see 6 that reference? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q . And was he in the public relations 9 department of Monsanto in 1969? 3 0 A . Yes 3 1 Q . D o you know what h i s p o s ition was? 1 2 A . H e was assigned t o the m e d i c a 1 1 3 d f p 11 r I m t ; i L and others that I'm not -- I 1 4 can' t remember. But he was the P . R . m a n 1 3 t h a 1 we used if we needed on e . A n d he also 1 6 went through P.R . books and s t u f f that he 1 7 got that concerned us. 1 8 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Spano was 1 9 the author of Exhibit 111 whichwe looked 2 0 at earlier today? 2 1 A. No, I don't. 2 2 Q . The s a m e paragraph that refers 2 3 M r . Spano goes o n to refer to Tom Ford. 2 4 you recollect who Tom Ford was and what 2 a position was in August 1969? |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 5 HARTOLDMONOQ25459 1 A . No, I do not. I don't remember 2 h i m at ,i I 1 , 3 Q. And do you remember who Sterling 4 Turner was? 5 ft . No. . 6 Q. What about Bill Richards? 1 A. I know Bill Richards. 8 Q. What was Mr. Richards' position? 9 A. He was in the technical support ] 0 gnuip Cor this group of compounds for the 1 1 organic division. 1 2 Q . And what does the position of 1 3 being in a technical support group imply in 1 4 t e t m s . / C job function? 1 5 A. He did the research and the 1 6 customer initiated materials for use. If 1 7 you had asked the company will this 1 8 material work in thus and so application. 1 9 Bill Richards' group would have tried it to 2 0 see. Okay? 2 ] Q Do you r e c o 1 1 ect the circumst 2 2 under whi c h you wrote this memorandum? 2 3 A . N o ., I don't. really, recolle 2 4 very well I re member vaguely the inc 2 5 in the bay, in Escambia Bay. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 6 HARTOLDMON0025460 1 Q What do you remember vaguely? 2 A. Well, that it was there, there was 3 an argument about shrimp catch in Escambia 4 Bay. And, actually, I think you'll find if 5 you find enough data from the State of 6 Florida that at the time there was a 7 reduction in shrimp catch all along the 8 Gulf coast from a freeze that had occurred 9 sometime before. 1 0 Q. Turn to page 2. In the top 1 1 paragraph there is a reference to -- I'll 1 2 read you the sentence. It says "We called 1 3 Mr. D e an and Mr. O'Leary several times to 1 4 settle on what general approach Dean and 1 5 Turner should mak e to the state agencies. 1 6 Do you see that? 1 7 A . Yes. 1 8 Q . And who is Mr. Dean? 1 9 A . I haven' t the vaguest. I'm sure 2 0 worked with him. but I don't know who he 21 is . 2 2. Q . How about Mr. O'Leary? 2 3 A . Nor Mr. O'Leary. 2 4 Q . Are the Dean and Turner referred 2 5 to people other than Mr. Dean and Mr. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 7 HARTOLDMONOQ25461 1 O'Leary or the same people? 2 MR. PREL1SS: They have Mr. in 3 front of their names. 4 A . Excuse me. It is probable that 5 Dean and Turner were at the Pensacola 6 plant . 7 MR. TALLON: Your memo states, 8 "The general approach should be our 9 continuous cooperation with these agencies 1 0 and to answer their questions but not offer 1 1 a great deal of information or comment." 1 2 Correct? ] 3 A. Yes. 1 4 Q. Do you remember giving that 1 5 direction to the Monsanto employees who ]. 6 were to meet with state representatives in 1 7 Florida? ] 8 A. We would have -- we would have 1 9 had no -- nothing against giving them any 2 0 information, had they wanted it or needed 2 1 it or had any way of using it. And our 2 2 gj e.i test determination was what did they 2 3 want to use it for. We would test the 2 4 shrimp for them if they wanted us to, or we 2 5 would have tested the fish. We did it for GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI I 1 9 81 HARTOLDMONOQ25462 1 many other states. So it seems cruel, but. 2 we didn't -- this stuff is extremely 3 technically screwed up, it requires a very 4 q r i n l amount of work and equipment to 5 produce mists, and particularly mists of 6 fixed concentrations, measureable fixed 7 concentration, and that sort of stuff, or 8 to produce it in water. Be cause you're now 9 talking parts per trillion. And if they ] 0 wanted to test it , we would help them test 1 1 it, that's what I ' m saying. But to do 1 2 that, it's very difficult to do, you have 1 3 to go through three reductions in volume 1 4 and very, very, very carefully to get down 1 5 to those kind of -- 1 6 Q. You described the general approach 1 7 to the state agents as including not 1 8 offering a great deal of information or 1 9 comment, correct? 2 0 A. We had their report on shrimp, and 2 1 their discussion about the shrimp problem 2 2. elsewhere along the Florida Gulf coast. I 2 3 don't know that we needed anything else 2. 4 from them, really. 2 8 Q. I'm referring now to the paragraph |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 9 HARTOLDMONOQ25463 1 numbered 1 on page 2 which describes your 2 position. Correct? 3 A . Wecould cooperate with these 4 ci(j (~ 11 c i i and do anything they wanted us to 5 do . 6 Q. Ft u l not offer a great deal of 7 information or comment, correct? 8 A. Unless we wanted them to 9 understand something. Do they have people 1 0 that can do these things? What good would 1 1 it do to discuss the composition and the 1 2. method of manufacture and all that sort of 1 3 stuff, of. PCBs, with somebody who doesn't ] 4 want to go any f urth er than that? I don't 1 5 think we would have limited our di scussion 1 6 with them, let' s put it that way. n o . 1 7 Q Well - ] 8 A . W h a t v. v e i' it says here. 1 9 Q Paragraph 1 says, among o t.her 2 0 things, "The general approach should be our 2 1 continuous cooperation with these agencies 2 2 and In answer their questions but not offer 2 3 a great deal of information or comment," 24 i i gh t ? 2 5 A . Yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 200 HARTOLDMON0025464 1 Q So it was part of your program 2 with the state officialsnot t o offer a 3 great deal of information or c o m m e n t , 4 7 igh t ? b A. That's correct. That covers this 6 product, by the way, this grou p of 7 pi 11 11 u c t s . 8 Q. Why don't we mark as 117 a single 9 page document bearing producti on number 1 0 Tran 022090. ] 1 (Transwestern Deposition Exhi bit Number 1 2 117 mark'd for identificati on). 13 MR. TALLON: Can you identify that 1 4 document? 1 b A . No. ] 6 Q . D o you have any recollec 1 7 seeing that doc u m e n t before today 1 8 A . No . 1 9 Q Do you know E.S. Tucker? 2 0 A . Yes. 2 1 Q And who was Mr. Tucker in the 2 2 Monsanto world in Dec ember 1969? 2 3 A . Tucker was a man in a parti cuiar 2 4 group at Monsanto that sold products to - 2 5 that was one of the s ales staff that sold 1GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 20 1 HARTOLDMONOQ25465 1 some of the PCB products. 2 Q . If you turn to the upper 3 right-hand corner of the document, there 4 ar c- a series of names - there. Starting from 5 the bottom, E.P. Wheeler. 6 A . Yes. 7 Q. That was Mr. Wheeler for whom you 8 worked , correct? 9 A . Yes. 1 Cl Q And doe s the designation "GO" 1 1 refer to general o f f i c e ? 1 2 A . That is c o r r e c t . 1 3 Q And W.R . Rich ard is the Rill 1 4 K 1 c. h a r d to whom you re ferred previously i n 1 5 testimon y today? ] 6 A . Yes. 1 7 Q. And Mr. Keller you referred to 1 8 earlier in testimony today? 19 A. Yes. S. 2nd is South Second 2 0 Street laboratories. 2 1 Q. And who was Mr. Farrar in the 2 2 Monsanto world in December 1969? 2 3 A . I don't know. 2 4 Q The memorandum is addressed 2 5 Garr e t t and C . P a t o n , correct? [GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 202 HARTOLDMONOQ25466 1 A . Yes. 2 Q. Is that Cumming Patou? 3 A. That's Cumming Paton. 4 Q . What was Mr. Paton 1 s position with 5 Monsanto in December 1969, as best you 6 recall? 7 A. He was, likewise, in that -- in 8 the aroclor peddling group, as I recall. 9 He's one of the technical people in the 1 0 aroclor sales management group. Okay? ] I o. The memorandum states that its 1 2 subject. Is " Aroclor - wildlife, NCR water 1 3 , ' .. 1 4 A . Yes. 'hat? ] F n. Do you know whether or not the 1 6 .letters NCR stand for National Cash I 7 Reg <-r'> i q A. v n ^ / it is for National Cash 1 9 Register. 2 0 Q. And did you do or did you 2 1 participate in toxicity analyses of 2 2 a r 11 c 1 o f s for - with reference to your 2 3 customer, NCR? 2 4 A. Yes, I knew we were doing it. 2 5 Q. And is it the cast.' t, li a t NCR used |G 0 R Fi REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 03 HARTOLDMON0025467 1 aroclor 1242 in carbonless carbon paper? 2 a . ycs . 3 0. And is it the case that this 4 memorandum i n d i c a t e s that extract of w u I i r b p a ill pi ( :: r ef lecte d par ts per million of 6 aroclor 12 4 2 f o u n d in those samples? 7 A . Yes 8 Cl D o you r e c a 1 1 participating in 9 discussi o n s at M o n s a n to about the 1 0 b i o d e g r a d a b i 1 i t y of a roclor 1242? 1 1 A . Yes , I d o . 1 2 Q A n d w h a t do you recall of those 1 3 discussi o n s ? 1 4 A . T h a l w e had never seen much 1 5 degradat ion. W e had seen some i s o m i; r i c 1 6 changes . 1 7 Cl . What do you mean in that response 1 8 when you use the word degradation? 1 9 A. Where the material, the chemical 2 0 compound lost its chemical identity as 2. 1 finch . Y n ii say .it. was 2,3 dichloro so and 2 2 so, it lost that identity. 2 3 Cl W h e n you s t a t e d that you did not 2 4 see much deg r a d a t i o n of a r o r. lor 1 242, does 2 8 t h a 1 . i n (1 i cal o that 12 4 2 tended to persist (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 204 HARTOLDMONOQ25468 1 in i t s f c>rm as an arocl or in the 2 e n v i I l1 n m c: n t ? 3 A That the mater ial -- that the 4 mate r i a 1 analyzed for w as the 5 c li 1 o X' o biphenyl, that's the analysis, and it 6 was -- w hat. he said wa s the degradation of 7 t h e s e -- these samples represented that 8 c h e m i c a 1 species, arocl or 1242, period, 9 Now, h e s aid he didn't know about any other 1 0 d e g r a d a t i on or anything else, didn't show ] 1 any e v i d e nee of biodegr a d a t i o n . 1 2 Q And now I'm re ferring to -- I had ] 3 a s k </ 8 you whether you w ere a participant in 1 4 any d i s c u ssions at Mons anto about the 1 5 d e g r a d a b i lity of aroclo r 1242 and you 1 6 i n d i c a ted that you had. In those ] 7 disc u s s i o ns, apart from the reference in 1 8 the e x h i b it that you're looking at, what do 1 9 you r e cal 1 being said a bout the tendency of 2 0 12 4 2 t o persist in the environment? 2 1 A Well, it's not very degradable, 2 2 Q Does that mean it tends to 2 3 pers i s l ? 2 4 A It tends to pe:rsist, yes. 2 5 will / how ever, degrade. It i GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 205 HARTOLDMONOQ25469 1 Q I'm sorry. 11 will? 2 A. It will, however, degrade. And we 3 f o und this out through studies in 4 c u nnection with this same NCR effluent 5 P r ocedure. 6 Q 1 'm s o r r y , I d i d n 1' t hear the end 7 0 f your answer . You found t h is on 1. i n a c n h<t l `i i / 11 W ,i 1 tl s t u d i e s -- 9 A . With NCR sin dies. 1 0 Q For what pur pose were those NCR 11 S t u d i e s undertaken? ] 2 A . Our own push ing NCR. We were 1 3 1 n terested in what wa s going -- what was 1 4 9 u ing to happen to th e NCR use. And, of 1 5 c o urse, it was discon t i n u e d . 1 6 Q . Why were you interested i n what 1 7 w a g o ing to happe n w ith the NCR u s e ? i a A . Well, we did n't want NCR t o screw 1 9 u p the thing with bad data. And w e knew 2 0 t. h ey didn't know how to do the analysis, 2 1 f o r example. It's a complex electronic 2 2 m i croscope analysis . 2 3 Q. What were yo u concerned the 2 4 c. o nsequences of NCR s crewing it up might 25 be? |G0 R h: h'Kf'ORT .IMG COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 206 HARTOLDMON0025470 1 A . NCR was worried that they were* 2 going in lose the product b e c a u s e of that. 3 and so were we , but we wan ted to make sure 4 that when the data came in that it was as 5 accurate as we could make it. And we 6 probably could analyze the stuff better 7 than anybody else in the c o u n t r y . S o . 8 that's where it came from. 9 Q. But I think my question was what ] 0 w a >: Mw - - : * ' < 'ii, why were you concerned 1 1 that NCR would do the work itself and screw ] 2 it. up? Why was that an issue? 1 3 A. Well, the issue was if you had as 1 4 bio c c,i . 'Ury had going on that paper 1 5 and it was such a commercial success, how J 6 far do you think you would go to protect 1 7 it? We sold the PCB to them, and certainly ] 8 Monsanto was not in the business of trying 1 9 to get rid of its products, but we were in 2 0 the business of trying to make sure those 2 1 products were handled properly and not 2 2 discharged willie-nillie into 2 3 anything -- 2 4 Q . Did there come a time when you met 2 5 with representatives of NCR to discuss the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 207 HARTOLDMONOQ25471 1 toxicity of aroclor 1242 with those 2 representatives? 3 A . They knew the toxicity of the 4 products from visits to St. Louis. 5 Q. Do you recall in particular a 6 meeting in 1970 with representatives of NCR 7 to St. Louis? 8 A. There were several. It's 9 possible. 1 0 ) . I, el me show you -- 1 1 A. I remember we had meetings with 1 2 NCR, 1 r I. ' pul i I that way. 1 3 Q. Let me have marked as Exhibit 118 ] 4 a mu' p >i g r document bearing production 1 5 number Tran 085272. 1 6 (Tinnswestern Deposition Ex hibit Number 1 7 118 mark'd for identifica t i o n ) . 18 MR. TALLON: Does r eviewing the 1 9 document marked as Exhibit 1 18 refresh your 2 0 recollection as to a meeting held with 2 1 representatives of National Cash Register 2 2 in St. Louis in June 1970? 2 3 A . Yes. 2. 4 Q. Tell us what you re member about 2 5 that meeting in terms of its purpose? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 208 HARTOLDMONOQ25472 1 A . We were pushing Cash to move over 2 to another -- to another dye diluent. 3 Q . To another what? 4 A. Dye diluent. The material that -- 5 the aroclor was used as a diluent in the 6 dye capsule, in the encapsulated dye that 7 made the carbonless carbon paper by 8 exploding the capsule with a key of the old 9 typewriter. It wouldn't work today because 1 0 nobody types it in with a key. But the 1 1 problem was the thing was -- they were -- 1 2 we suggested they look for substitute 1 3 material. And this was a discussion of 1 4 MIPB. Monoisopropylbutane, MIPB. We did 1 5 not make that.We were, like the fools 1 6 that we were, talking theminto getting out 1 7 of our business. 1 8 Q . W h a t was the purpos e f or your 1 9 attend a n c e a t the meeting wi t h the NCR 2 0 representatives? 2 1 A. I had been -- I had done some 2 2 work with NCR's people over at Hill Top 2 3 1. aboratories in Cincinnati where they were 2 4 doing some toxicology work. 2 5 Q. What work was that? IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 209 HARTOLDMONOQ25473 1 A. I don't recall the specifics. 2 Thrwe was a lot of work being done on it by 3 everybody, including us, in their issue. 4 Now, you can imagine their enthusiasm 5 wasn't too high for this, so you can 6 understand some of the reasons for these 7 meetings. 8 Q. Do you recall what information was 9 furnished to National Cash Register ] 0 t t: presentatives at this meeting 1 1 concerning -- ] 2 A. Every bloody thing we had that 1 3 they didn't already have, which I can't 1 4 imagine there was very much. It could have 1 5 been some of this by electron scope 1 6 studies . ]7 MR. PREUSS: He asked if you 1 8 remembered. 19 MR. TALLON: And by electron scope 2 0 studies, you're referring to the exhibit 2 ] which discusses the biodegradability of 2 2 aroclor 1242? 2 3 A. Thai's right. In these low, low, 2 4 low concentrations . 25 MR. PREUSS: Number 117. |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 210 HARTOLDMONOQ25474 1 MR. TALLON: Without reference to 2 the specific nature of the work being done 3 by the NCR representatives at the Hill Top 4 location, what was the nature of your 5 communication or interaction with those NCR 6 representatives? 7 MR. PREUSS : At this meeting or 8 any time? 9 MR. TALLON: I'm referring to the 1 0 witness's earlier statement about his 1 1 interaction with NCR. 12 A. I went, atDr. Kelly or Mr. 1 3 Wheeler and I can't remember whose request, 1 4 I went with the NCR people over to Hill Top 1 5 Laboratories. Which, by the way, is a 1 6 private consultingtoxicology laboratory in 1 7 Cincinnati. Whether it is still there or 1 8 still by the same name, Ido not know. I 1 9 haven't heard about it in years. It is 2 0 possible it's somebody else's name, that it 2 ] was bought by one of these chain outfits. 2 2 But I don't know. They were there then. I 2 3 went to Hill Top with this NCR man, and we 2 4 went over some data that Hill Top was doing 2 8 with fish and other things. And they ORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 21 1 HARTOLDMON0025475 1 essentially proved what we proved, and that 2 was that the stuff was virtually 3 n o n - d e g r a dable unde r normal circum s t a n c e s . 4 Q Do you rec ollect the reas o n why 5 D r . Kelly was to be present at the N a t i o n a 1 6 C' a y h R e g i ster meeti ng in June of 1 9 7 0 ? 7 A . Their doct or probably was t h e r e . 8 Q And do you remember any 9 c o n t ri but ion that D r. Kelly made t o the ] 0 rn cct i n g ? ] 1 A . Probably , yes. He told the m t o 1 2 get their butt out of the business > ] 3 Q Do you rem ember any contr i b u t i o n 1 4 that you made to th e meeting? ] 8 A . Not with h i m there. 1 6 Q Do you rem ember any contr i b u t i o n 1 7 you made to the mee ting, whether o r not h e 1 8 was there ? 1 9 A . The contri butions were th e 2 0 sampling that we ha d done for Tuck e r w h e n 2 1 he was do ing these tests, and we d i d s o m e 2 2 sampling. and then we did some lat e r , a nd 2 3 t h o s e -- the sampl ing showed that ther e 2 4 was b e t w e e n -- oka y, now I rememb e r 2 5 We 'r e talking about the Little Mia m i R i v e r , [GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 12 HARTOLDMONOQ25476 1 they're discharging into that. National 2 Cash, then it meanders down and injures the 3 Ohio at Miamisport, and we had done some 4 sampling along there. 5 Q. Were the results of that sampling 6 7 e f I (' c I (.- d in Exhibit 117? 7 A. Part of it was hern, yes. 8 Q . Do you recollect the results other 9 than as shown on Exhibit 117? ] 0 A. No, not really. It would be 1 1 trying to guess at some things that you mix 1 2 up in your mind, and I don't think I can do 1 3 that very well. ] 4 Q. Did you ever have direct 1 5 communications with Soren Jensen in Sweden 1 6 07 anyone working with him? 1 7 A . No. 1 8 Q . Do you know if Dr. Kelly did? 1 9 A. We conversed with him by letter at 2 0 the institute where he worked. And we did 2 1 it through the years, actually. I don't 2 2 know why the letters aren't in the files or 2 3 anything. I don't know. I did not do it, 2 4 Elmer did it. He met him in a meeting in 2 5 London later, or during this period of time |G 0 R H REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 213 HARTOLDMONOQ25477 1 that this rukus was going on. And we asked 2 him seme questions, and his answers were 3 not translatable to American law and 4 t egulation. b Q. Could you read that back? 6 (The requested portion of the 7 it-cord read by the reporter) . 8 MR. TALLON: What does that mean. 9 Mi. Garrett? ] 0 A. Well, in some -- some countries 1 1 make you prove that things are bad. The 1 2 United States does not, and never has. 1 3 Q. How did that relate to the 1 4 discussions between representives of 1 5 Monsanto and Mr. Jensen? 1 6 A. The fact that Sweden, for example, 1 7 was going to go ahead and use PCBs in their 1 8 electrical transmission and we were not, 1 9 because regulations were going to cause us 2 0 to stop it. 2 1 Q. Regulations were going to -- 2 2 A. To make us stop using 2 3 polychlorinated biphenyls in electrical 2 4 transmission or any electrical transmission 2 5 devices. GORE REPORTING COMPANY 1 ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 14 HARTOLDMONOQ25478 ] Q I g,, uess -I'm- .just- not clear. How 2 did that discussion of the difference 3 between the Swedish regulatory system and 4 U.S. regulatory system figure in your 5 discussions? 6 A . In Sweden they were not going to 7 take it out of their transmission systems. 8 Q. Why did you care? 9 A. Well, it seemed strange to us if 1 0 they didn't believe that it was a hazard in .1 1 their electrical systems, why should we be 1 2. forced to take it out of ours. 1 3 Q. Why was that a subject of 1 4 discussion with Mr. Jensen? 1 5 A. Because he's the one who talked 1 6 all of the things into it. He was the one 1 7 that started the PCB yahoo all by himself. 1 8 Q. By yahoo, you're referring to -- 1 9 A. His issue connected with finding 2 0 it, which is not unusual in fish and so 2 1 forth in the fisheries along the Swedish 2 2 part of the Baltic Sea. And his is very, 2 3 very excellent work, incidentally, don't 2 4 -- I'm not criticizing him at all, he's a 2 5 hell of a good researcher in wildlife GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUI S, MISSOUR I 2 15 HARTOLDMON0025479 1 management , and that's what he was doing. 2 But what he did not understand was our 3 hesitance or -- you know, we don't use 4 dirigibles in this country because they're 5 gas, that sort of thing. We do, but you 6 shouldn't do it because it's going to kill 7 people. It makes no sense to me. In other 8 wo ids, if it was hazardous, why the hell . 9 were they go i n g to go a head and use i t . 1 0 Why was the tec h n i c a 1 man e mployed by t h e 1 1 very g o v e r n m e n t that w a s go i n g to go a h e a d ] 7 a n d use it. and we were g o i n g to get rid o f 1 3 it a n d stop u s .i n g it. It d id n ' t make a n y 3 4 r. o 1 i :. l ' .! 1 . l ! - - a n d finally 1 5 d e c i d e d that i t d i d n ' t m a k o any sense / s o 1 6 w e r r ) n 3 (j II ' l d o n n y t h i ng a b o u t it. 1 7 Q . So h e c o u 1 d n ' t d o anything a bon t 18 3 t ? ] 9 A . Nor c o u 1 d we 2 0 Q. Did you play any role, Mr. 2 3 Carroll, in the decision to withdraw any 2 2 Monsanto product containing PCBs from the 2 3 mark el. for sale to customers? 2 4 A. We withdrew it, so I would be 2 5 p d i I I y responsible, I would assume. How GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 16 HARTOLDMON0025480 1 indirectly I don't know. Elmer would have 2 to b part 1 y , K e 1 1 y w o u 1 d , I would 3 Q W e re you part o f any w o r k i n g g r o u p 4 W ll r r - ! 1, i s object of w i t h d r a w i n g P C B - b a s e d 5 p r oduc t S f r o m the mark e t w as a s u b j o r L o f 6 d i S < ' u :. : i r> n ? 7 A W e c o 1 1 e c five 1 y w ere o p p o s e d t o 8 this use 9 Q [ ' in sorry ? 1 0 A W e were c o 1 1 e c t i v e 1 y O p p O 3 e d t o 1 1 t h1 G u 3V 1 v O T h is use ref e rrin g to what 7 1 3 A Making ca rbon pap e r . I do n ' t 1 4 b e i i ( V ' W L' were re ally o pp o s e d to a n y other 1 5 u s e , that I know o f , that any of t h e ] 6 a r u r 1 n r was put to 1 7 Q . W h a t was the r e a son f o r t. h ] 8 O p P O S i 1 i o ll t o the use o f P C B s in t h 1 9 m a n u f a c t u r e o f c a rbonl ess carbon P a 2 0 A. The paper went in to all kinds of 2 1 dumps, it was soaked with water, material 2 2 was carried out, flushed out, it wasn't 2 3 dissolved because it wasn't soluble, into 2 4 receiving streams. After ten years of this 2 5 you could find it all over the world, after |GORK REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 17 HARTOLDMONOQ25481 1 we developed the method for analysis in 2 v o t y minute amounts. That's with the 3 scope, with the electron scope. 4 Q. I take it, then, that the concern 5 that you've just described was that the RGB 6 component of the carbonless carbon paper 7 could enter the environment as a result of a th( disposal of carbonless carbon paper? 9 A. You can't -- how do you dispose ] 0 of paper garbage? Burn it? Either way, we 1 1 release the PCB into the environment. 1 2 Either way. And it was getting so big, I 1 3 mean, everybody was using those things, 1 4 including the cop that gave you a ticket. 1 5 The point I make is that there were very ] 6 many fine uses of it that did not impinge 1 7 on the environment. This one was not. one i a of those uses. 1 9 Q. If a PCB based fluid product leaks 2 0 out of a system, does that enter the 2 1 c. n v i r o n m e n t ? 22 MR. PREUSS: I'll object as an 2 3 incomplete hypothetical, insufficient facts 2 4 upon which to form an opinion. 2 5 A. That would be philosophizing. I GORE RE I'OR TING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 18 HARTOLDMONOQ25482 ! * > n ' 1 think it would do that. MR. TALLON: If a PCB fluid is 3 poured on the ground, is that in the 4 e it v i i i) ii in e n t ? b MR. PREUSS: I object as 6 argumentative. 7 A. I don't know. Depends on where 8 the ground is, what you're talking about, 9 w h a I l lie concentration is, what the PCB is, 1 0 what the other materials transported with 1 ] it a re. There is so many variables in that 1 2 question I don't know how to -- we have 1 3 proven what we knew about this. 1 4 Q. Proven what you knew about 1242? ] 5 A. No, about using this paper. There 1 6 was nothing wrong with the paper itself. ] 7 There was never a single solitary claim of 1 8 anybody being hurt with it or with its 1 9 results. But we knew -- and heavy 2 0 chlorinated chemicals have a tendency -- 2 1 they're fat soluble and they have a 2 2 tendency to concentrate in fat. Fatty 2 3 animals would concentrate it if they got it 2 4 in their food chain, anyway. We found that 2 S oul fro in studying these things. So in this |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 219 HARTOLDMONOQ25483 1 use or in most of the uses that we checked 2 through we did not find that hazard 3 associated with it. 4 Q. Did you participate in any 5 analysis undertaken by Monsanto of 6 dit Ie;fni ways in which PCBs could enter 7 the food chain? 8 A . '! o I h e degree that they were done. 9 but not a 11 of them. Th ere could h a v r- h o e n 1 0 in a n y iif 1 h e in don e I knew nothing about. 1 1 Q D i d you partici pate in a n y sue h 1 3 s 1 11 (1 y V 1 r. D l - h, y e s . 1 4 Q A n d was it a pa r t of tha 1 s 1 u d y to 1 b cl e l e r in i n C h o w rr Ms enter e d the f o o d c h a i n 1 6 t h at in c 1 u d e d f i s h ? ] 7 A . W c 11, I ' m going to tell you 1 8 s o m e t h i n g that ' s strange . T n c h o r. k i n g \> C B 1 9 m a li u f a ; ! :i r t n <j , a n d these are -- this i s 2 0 w h e n we had t h e s e people up again s t t h e 2 1 w a 11, us a n d the Dutch, the Germa ns and the 2 2 French, there was more PCB in the 2 3 e n v i i ii n in e n l than any o f u s m 2 4 total . Particul a r 1 y t r u e a t 2 b c. r e a 1 n ICS. Now, w e don ' t k n GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 22 0 HARTOLDMONOQ25484 1 happened, we haven't the foggiest notion 2 how u filler inn led compound, any kind, got 3 into those critter, but it did. Now - 4 MR. I' R E U S S : Try to answer his 5 question, Mr. -- 6 A . Thu 1 W 1 r pa i t of the reason, the 7 unknown. that w e f a c c d with it. 8 M R . T A 1, h 0 N : PCBs are not 9 naturally occurring, correct? 1 0 A . No. We do not know if they are, 1 1 and we have never seen them except maybe we 3 2 have in t I . i 1 11 sou creatures. We may have 1 3 seen PCBs generated in the environment 3 4 i i. s c 1 r . ] F. Q. what circumstances are you 1 6 describing? 3 7 A. When you produce 40 million 1 8 gallons of stuff and the French produce 40 3 9 million gallons and the Germans produce 40 2 0 million gallons and all of it shows up and 2 1 more off the coast of -- Gulf coast of 2 2 Florida in fish, you know something is 2 3 wrong. Now, it was our opinion that 2 4 somehow there was a possibility, however, 2 b we never could prove it, nor could we ever jGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 221 HARTOLDMONOQ25485 1 reconstruct it, that the material could, in 2 fact, generate; either that or a material 3 that gave the same reflections in very 4 high-powered analytical equipment. Okay? 5 Now, you don't know any more than you did 6 bH in r and neither do we. Does it show in 7 the electron scope? And if so, what is it 8 showing in the electron scope? And you're 9 talking parts per trillion, and there is no 1 0 way y c> u ran yet a piece of it and break i t 1 1 up and look at it. it's too small . You ' r e 1 2 t t y i n y l o analyze a teeny, teeny. tiny 1 3 piece. and you can ' t do it. We t r i e d . We ] 4 man lie 8 up < i. . j h shrimp and enough other 1 5 creatures, you just couldn't do it. 1 6 Q. Did any study undertaken at 1 7 Monsanto while you were employed by 1 8 Mo ns,inli. ; . k to determine the different 1 9 i f there was more 2 0 c on 1 d enter the f o o 2 1 A . Yes. 2 2 Q Wan there one s 2 3 one such study? 2 4 A . The i i weri- neve 2 5 strange things in GORE REPO E T 1 NG COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 222 HARTOLDMONOQ25486 1 the Great Lakes. 2 MR. R R 11 S S : He just asked you if 3 there was more than one. 4 A . V f : ' ! ) i (- i i W c) S . 5 MR. TAJpLON : W h > I were I hfi 6 r n ii r 1 11 :. I i !' < r ! horse studies, as you recall 7 them, in describing how PCBs entered Ihe 8 food r h ti i ii ? t . Avoid a discussion of them. There 1 0 was no other way. For example, we found ] 1 too much -- we found it coming out of 1 2 effluents where large -- we're talking 1 3 about huge dry cleaning establishments 1 4 were. There is no aromatic compounds used 1 8 in dry cleaning that anybody knows of, that 1 6 we checked. 1 7 Q . At' (.) malic? 1 8 A. Yes. 1 9 Q . Are you referring to PCB 2 0 compounds? 2 1 A. I'm talking about aromatic 2 2 chlorinated compounds, and PCB is a. 2 3 ch 1 oi i n a l i d -- is a biphenyl 2 4 chlorination. Biphenyl is two benzene 2 8 rings stuck end to end, it is an aromatic. |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 223 HARTOLDMONOQ25487 1 Now, again, we're talking exceeding!.-/ low 2 lev, ! ; : !, ! / n ! ,i V ! o pick Up with 3 extremely d e 1 i c a I. > i, ., ' , u m < 1> ! .. , . ! i i ! i o n 4 n. ' , " ' l. . i i .i reflection in 5 there that .interferes? I f so, w o didn't 6 k lie W w 1. , i ! ' 1 .. . . ^ ' yen ever participate in any 8 decision by Monsanto to withdraw PC 8 based 9 1 I u i d pi (Mini- I s from the market? 1 0 A . Yes. ] 1 Q . And what was your role in that 1 2 decision-making process? 1 3 A. We refused to sell it to some tile 1 4 makers and to a preformed insulation ] 5 tii a n u r a r i neer. 1 6 Q . When? 1 7 A. It had to be in the ' 7 0 ' s 1 8 sometime . ] 9 Q . The early 1 7 0 ' s or late ' 7 0 ' s or 2 0 mid ' 7 0 ' s ? 21 A. 1 don't know. I just don't know. 2 2 Q. What was your role in that 2 3 process? 2 4 A . I wie nt to check their facilities 2 5 to see if they were going to protect their |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 224 HARTOLDMONOQ25488 1 employees, and the facilities were 2 ter i ; l, ; . . The glass fiber manufacturer 3 that we checked, the preformed i n s u 1 ,i I ion 4 m u n t! f h r i u i i r refused to do anything about 5 it, and he was cooking them in ovens, drop 6 ironl 11 * . ; f you know what I mean, and 7 theworkers were pulling the ovenopen a dropping it and that whole gang of and 9 decomposition products and so fnrlh on me 1 0 Tight on I in the worker's face. And I told 1 1 them no, we would not, unless they change ] 2 i i , and theywouldn't change it. We 1 3 refused to sell it to them. 1 4 Q. Did you play any role in 1 5 connection with decisions made at Monsanto ] f. concerning the phaseout or discontinuance 1 7 of sale of Turbinol? 1 R A. Turbinol didn't discontinue. Its 1 9 base, chlorinated hydrocarbon, 2 0 disappeared. The aroclor backing, that 2 1 thing was stopped, it wasn't the Turbinol 2 2 thing that stopped. It was the aroclor 2 3 that made it. 2 4 Q. Turbinol continued to be sold 2 5 under a different formulation? |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, .MISSOURI 225 HARTOLDMONOQ25489 1 A . No. Not to my knowledge. They 2 c.uuld have been, but I didn't know it. 3 When they took the PCB out of it they 4 i e in o . . .1 from it the property that was most 5 attractive to that as a turbine fluid. 6 Q What property was that? 7 A . Fireproof or fire resistance. And 8 the lubricity in a fire-resistant material. 9 Q. And was there a substitute 1 0 p i (1<1 ii i IV I I A. They're running turbines today. 1 2 Q. I mean, did Monsanto manufacture a 1 3 subsfi Lute product? 1 4 A. We tried, but we didn't come up 1 5 with it, no. Not to our opinion. 1 6 Q. Who do you know that was involved 1 7 in the procedure of attempting to develop a 1 8 substitute product? 1 9 A. Well, my own knowledge, the 2 0 chemical industry. You got a market, 2 3 here's an opening, all the people are going 2 2 to scramble into that opening and try to 2 3 produce a product. I don't know who did, I 2 4 couldn't even tell you. All I know is that 2 5 somebody tried, because we tried. But the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 226 HARTOLDMON0025490 1 minute it went out, everybody in the world 2 knew it in the chemical industry, that we 3 were pulling out of the PCB business. So, 4 bang. they started looking at our product 5 line and ev e r y b o d y was trying to -- I 6 don't blame them. I'm sorry. This is our 7 old eat and eat and grab business world. 8 My point is, you people still have turbine 9 fluids even when we quit making Turb i n o 1 . i n And so mebody filled that void. And they 11 would do that anyway. I don't know which 1 2 ones. I'm sure we tried., But that just 1 3 was on e of those th i n g s . ] 4 Q. I take it, though, from your 1 5 nswer that you d i d n ''t have any direct 1 6 artic ipati on in the process of attempti 1 7 o develop a sub stitute fluid? 1 8 A. We tested -- 19 MR. PREUSS: He's talking about 2 0 you. 2 1 A. We tested some of them, that's 2 2 all. 23 MR. TALLON: I'm questioning now 2 4 whether you personally were involved? 2 5 A . I knew it and helped write some of IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 227 HARTOLDMONOQ25491 1 the stuff on the test products. 2 Q. Write what stuff on the test 3 products? 4 A . The results of the toxicology 5 tests. And the results, more importantly, 6 of the degradation, fire tests and so forth 7 of the product itself, the material. They a had several substitute materials they were 9 trying to sell. ] 0 Q . Do you remember the components of 11 those substitute materials? 1 2 A. Absolutely not, none of them. But 1 3 none of them contained any chlorinated ] 4 h y cl r o c a r b o n s . l b Q. Do you know the period over which 1 6 you participated in this testing process? 1 7 A . N o . B e cause we were f a c i n g the 1 8 w h o 1 e P C B w i t h d r a w a 1 bus i n e s s / yu see. 1 9 W e ' r e 1 o o k i n g at a heck of a lot b e t t e r 2 0 bigger markets than just Turbinol fluid 2 1 markets. And we. didn't do too well in any 2 2 of them, frankly. We do make a lot of 2 3 fluids today, basically, of component 2 4 fluids, or did, but they're not anything 2 5 like the chlorinated materials. (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 228 HARTOLDMONOQ25492 1 Q Do you have a recollection of when 2 attempts began to fin d a substitute fluid? 3 A . Probably i n the late '70's and 4 near '80' s . When i t was absolutely 5 essential , it looked 1 i k e we had no chance 6 of continuing to produce PCBs of any kind 7 for any reason. 8 MR. TALLON: I'd like to take a 9 few minutes. 1 0 (Recess) . 11 MR. TALLON: Just a couple.' more 1 2 q u t: l i < j i t ' t Mr. G a r r ett. When you referred 1 3 earl i e r i n your t e s timony to a rod book 1 4 c. u n c e r n i n g document retention poli c i e s , was 1 5 the book red? ] 6 A. It had a red cover. The first one 1 7 had a red cover, that's where it got the 1 8 name red book. I think the third one had a 1 9 green cover, actually. And it was a -- 2 0 the people -- it was a desperate try to 2 1 keep from putting so many files out there 2 2 that the whole thing sank. And what 2 3 happened -- 24 MR. PREUSS: He just asked you 2 5 what the color was. ORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 2 91 HARTOLDMONOQ25493 1 A . They. said what do ^you get out , how 2 ran you get it out, and the red one was the 3 first issue. 4 MR. TALLON: Is that the kind of 5 instructional manual that states when 6 certain kinds of documents can be 7 destroyed? 8 A. And when -- which ones to store 9 and which ones to dump, yes. 1 0 Q. Was there a particular section of 1 1 the red book, as you recall it, that 1 2. related to your department? 1 3 A. No. It was general, related to ] 4 lie use of the doc 1 5 a d e of it i n i t i a 1 1 6 here were out. 3 7 Q . You s a i d 1 8 January 12th, but in what year were you 1 9 born? 2 0 A . 1 9 2 3. 2 1 Q You indicated that you didn't 2 2 interact personally with Industrial 2 3 B i o t e s t , is that correct? 2 4 A . No, I did not. 2 5 Q You did not interact personally. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 23 0 HARTOLDMONOQ25494 1 Did you receive test results from 2 1 n d u l i i al Biotest? 3 A . We did and I saw them. And I got 4- i f I wanted some done, I could get them 5 done. 6 Q Did you have tests conducted by 7 Industri al Biotest? a A . In a couple of instances I 9 initiate d the need for it, yes. 1 0 Q Do you remember the scope or 1 1 nature o f the tests that you requested ] 2 Industri al Biotest to perform? 1 3 A . This was -- both cases was what ] 4 W a know n then as chronic tests, and these 1 5 were ora 1 chronic tests. ] 6 Q Oral chronic tests? 1 7 A . Yes. 1 8 Q For what toxin? 1 9 A . I don't even remember what the 2 0 m a to r i a 1 s w e i- e . 2 1 Q w h e n , i n your a n s w e r of a moment 2 2 ago, you s a i d that w e used Indus t r i a 1 2 3 Hi o t e s t 2 4 A . The department. 2 5 Q - Your department? |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 23 1 HARTOLDMONOQ25495 1 A . Yes. 2 Q. Did Mr. Wheeler use Industrial 3 Biotest? 4 A . Yes. b Q . Did Dr. Kelly have -- did Dr. 6 Kelly use Industrial Biotest? 7 A. Because of the cost. It was a 8 general agreement that it was needed by 9 pretty nearly all the professionals in the 1 0 department until it got too damn big. You 1 1 know, today you'd have to hold some kind of 1 2 a meeting and have ballot boxes, because it ] 3 takes a whole floor of one of the buildings 1 4 out there now. ] 8 Q. To your knowledge, did Mr. Wheeler 1 6 rely on data test results that he got from 1 7 Industrial Biotest? 1 8 A. And others. ] 9 Q. Did you ever question the v a 1 2 0 or reliability of test results that y o 2 1 personally got from Industrial B i o t e s t 2 2 A . No. 2 3 Q . Do you know if anyone working 2 4 your department questioned the rel iabi 2 5 or validity of Industrial Biotest test GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 23 2 HARTOLDMON0025496 1 results? 2 A. You'd have to d i s c u ss that with 3 the toxicology people there now. Ask them. 4 I don't know. b Q. Do you know that Industrial 6 Biotest was accused of falsifying test 7 results? 8 A . Yes, I heard all about 9 Q And d o you know if tha 1 0 falsification related to tests upon which 1 1 Industrial Biotest was working for 3 2 Monsanto? ] 3 A. I don't know. I just don't know. 1 4 Q. Who would know that information, 1 5 do you bel ieve? 16 A. With Elmer dead and Kelly --I 1 7 don't think Emmett knew the particulars of 1 8 it. He approved of doing some work on X 1 9 compound, and Elmer would feather it out 2 0 and put it in the labs. Now, we have done 2 1 tox in a lot of other laboratories, too, so 2 2 don't get me wrong, we didn't only usethem 2 3 then, even. And so we've done tox work in 2 4 Europe . 25 MR. PREUSS: He's just asking if GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2331 HARTOLDMONOQ25497 1 you know who would know about it. 2 A . That's the 3 was not done at Indu 4 ] ' Til 1 i y i n g to say. 5 were not done at Ind 6 MR. TALLON: 7 W h e e 1 e r and Dr. Kell 8 W 1) < . aid know 9 A . No. The one 1 0 d Oit <1 ; D r . Hunt, Will 1 1 Q When you le 1 2 f a 1 sit i C ation of dat 1 3 Bio test. did that ca 1 4 q u e s t i o n the results 1 5 for you by Industria 1 6 A . No . 1 7 Q Why not? 1 8 A . Because the 1 9 m e were not done by 2 0 Q Where Indus 2 1 work for you or for your department, did 2 2 t. h a I c r\ ii < you to call into question the 2 3 validity or reliability of that data? 2 4 A . We did some testing, retesting of 2 5 some of materials, not any of the PCBs, GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 234 HARTOLDMONOQ25498 1 incidentally, and the test results came out 2 virtually the same. And assumed that 3 during certain periods that testing all 4 their data was valid. 5 Q. You redid certain tests done by 6 1 n d ii :; ! rial Biotest? 7 A. Mr. Wheeler had it done throu g h 8 Industrial Biotest and through our then 9 toxicology department, and the testing came 1 0 out reasonably accurately, what Biotest had 1 1 produced. And to the best of my knowledge, 1 2 we did not have any fallacious data that we 1 3 used from Industrial Biotest. ] 4 Q. In the retesting did you use split 1 5 samples or simply repeat the tests? 1 6 A. We probably did some of it with 1 7 shorter term sampling to check some of the 1 8 labs, but I know we did that. 1 9 Q. Did which? 2 n A. 90 day studies with some of the 2 1 labs to check their validity. We were gun 2 2 shy by l his time, and we had -- we did 2 3 some 90 day tests to check various labs and 2 4 they came out fine, we had no problems and 2 5 saw no problems, and those that we repeated GORK KRPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 235 HARTOLDMONOQ25499 1 came back with virtually the same data. So 2 w e n : : u m < d our stuff was not mixed up in 3 any kind o f act i v i t y there . 4 Q . W h i'i I were the selection criteria 5 for determining which tests would be 6 7' r I ? . A . The ones that were most important 8 to us. And that was two year studies, rat 9 - generally rat feeding studies. Because 1 0 this is a so-called chronic test. 1 1 Q. Which is a so-called -- 1 2 A. The two year study. Even if you 1 3 do absorption studies, they'll be done in 1 4 -- for as long as you can keep the beasts 1 5 alive from the standpoint of their own 1 6 health . 1 7 Q. To your knowledge, did the organic 1 8 chemicals division deal directly with 1 9 Industrial Biotest? 2 0 A. No. They did it through this 2 ] department. 2 2 Q The medical department? 2 3 A . Yes. Still d o . Which is now the 2 4 c h e mi i cal company, sti 1 1 does. 2 5 Q And to clari f V something that you GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 2 3 61 HARTOLDMON0025500 1 said earlier today, I asked you whether you 2 w c t t doing any consulting projects for 3 Monsanto and I think you said"I believe 4 so". Is Monsanto compensating you for the 5 time spent during this deposition? 6 A . No. 7 Q. And are you currently -- 8 MR. PREUSS: I think his testimony 9 was Ihat hestill considers himself a 1 0 consultant for Monsanto. 11 MR. TALLON: Are you currently 1 2 doing any consulting work for Monsanto? ] 3 A. Only with -- in connection with 1 4 this deposition. But I cannot be paid for 1 3 it during the deposition. 1 6 Q. You can't be paid for it during 1 7 the deposition? 18 A. No. There is a court decision 1 9 that says you cannot be paid for an in-fact 2 0 deposition. 2 1 Q. Okay. But what's the consulting 2 2 work you're doing for Monsanto in 2 3 connection with the deposition? 2 4 A. This one, advising him as to what 2 5 happened to the best of my -- |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 23 7 HARTOLDMON0025501 1 MR. PREUSS: You're not supposed 2 to discuss what you and I say. 3 MR. TALLON : Okay. So you're 4 din wing a distinction between sitting here 5 and testifying and preparation? 6 A . Of course. 7 Q. And your testimony is that your 8 consulting arrangement is that you're 9 compensated for the preparation time, but 1 0 not for the testifying time? A. That is correct. 1 2 Q. Do you know how many hours you 1 3 plan to bill Monsanto for? ]4 MR. PREUSS: You don't have to 1 5 answer that. 16 A. I have no idea yet. No. 17 MR. TALLON: Do you believe that ] 8 the consultation in connection with this 1 9 deposition will last longer than today? 2 0 A. No. I hope not. 2 1 Q. And at what rate are you being 2 2 c nmpensated? 23 A. I haven't judged the rate yet. I 2 4 was doing it by day, which is what my type 2 5 consultant usually did. I cannot do that |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 238 HARTOLDMON0025502 1 with Monsanto because of the time I spend 2 on ragged pieces of two hours here and 3 three there, so I do it on a monthly -- on 4 an hourly basis. 5 Q. And what's your customary hourly 6 rate? 7 A. Fifty dollars an hour. 8 Q . And do you expect to receive that 9 oi something like that in connection with 1 0 your consulting work for this deposition? 1 1 A. Of course. 1 2 Q. And your expenses? 1 3 A. I got it from the School Board in 1 4 St. Louis, why shouldn't I get it from ]. 5 Monsanto . 1 6 Q. And are your expenses being picked 1 7 up? 1 8 A . A s long as we're in town I do not 1 9 charge e x p e n s e s to them. It'' s too 2 0 d i f f i c u 1 t to do and maintain records o n . 2 1 Q . And you 1 i v e in St. Louis? 2 2 A I live in Kirkwood. 23 MR. TALLON: I don't believe I 2 4 have anything further. 25 MR. PREUSS : I have no questions POKF: RR ROUTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 239 HARTOLDMON0025503 1 this time. ?. 3 4 5 C 1 8 9 10 11 l2 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY l ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 24 01 HARTOLDMON0025504 1 COMES NOW THE WITNESS JACK T . 2 GARkl.'T'l , and having read the foregoing 3 transcript of the deposition taken on the 4 In! day of April, 1992, acknowledges by 5 signature hereto that it is a true and 6 accurate transcript of the testimony given 7 on the date hereinabove mentioned. 8 9 10 1 1 JACK T. GARRETT 12 ] 3 Subscribed and sworn to me before this 1 4 _ _day of , 1 9 9 2. 1 5 My Com mi s s i on expires : 16 17 18 ]9 2 0 Notary Public 21 22 23 2 4 rg 28 PORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 24 11 HARTOLDMON0025505 1 State of Missouri ) 2 ) SS . 3 CityofSt. Louis ) 4 I , Ronald A . Gore, a Notary Public in 5 and for the State of Missouri, duly 6 commissioned, qualified and authorized to 7 administer oaths and to certify to a depositions, do hereby certify that 9 pursuant to Notice in the civil cause now ] 0 pending and undetermined in the Superior 1 1 Court for the State of California, for the 1 2 County of Los Angeles, to be used in the 1 3 trial of said cause in said court, I was 1 4 a I tended at the offices of Bryan Cave, One 1 5 Metropolitan Square, in the City of St. 1 6 Louis, State of Missouri, by the aforesaid 1 7 witness; and by the aforesaid attorneys; on 1 8 the 1st day of April, 1992. 1 9 The said witness, being of sound mind 2 0 and being by me first carefully examined 2 1 and duly cautioned and sworn to testify the 2 2 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 2 3 truth in the case aforesaid, thereupon 2 4 testified as is shown in the foregoing 2 5 transcript, said testimony being by me |GOKK REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 242 HARTOLDMON0025506 1 reported in shorthand and caused to be 2 transcribed into typewriting,and that the 3 foregoing pages correctly set forth the 4 testimony of the aforementioned witness, 5 together with the questions propounded by 6 counsel and remarks and objections of 7 counsel thereto, and is in all respects a 8 full, true, correct and complete transcript 9 of the questions propounded to and the 1 0 answers given by said witness; that 1 1 signature of the deponent was not waived by ] 2 n g r cement of counsel. 1 3 I further certify that I am not 1 4 c o u nsel o r a 11 o r n e y for either of the 1 5 parties t o said suit, not related t o 1 6 interested in any of the parties or their 1 7 attorneys . 1 8 Witness my hand and notarial seal at 1 9 St. Louis, Missouri, this day of 2 0 , 1 9 9 2. 2 1 My Commission expires May 22, 1994. 22 2 3 Notary Public in and for the 2 4 S 1 n t. e of Missouri 25 I corf: RKI'O h' 'I' I N G COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 243 HARTOLDMON0025507 DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET In Re: Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be made: Page Line Should read: *733 Ozc fi z ft<?>* C*/~f-;Z;rT! Reason assigned for change':'"' '...." c4-/ajj Page Line / Should read: 7h<?y H*33 y Reason assigned for change: Page 3 | Line j ^j- Should read: T?k /IWAly+ioAL/^e^^jocis Reason assigned for change: oP- Page 33 Line % Should read: / ftOQpB Vfcy -Tout p-Aryh.:^ O ^rfReason assigned for change: Page <373 Line j / Should read: fill 7^>. of1 t? O/dcs ~ Reason assigned for change: ClA (c t'hy Page 33 Line72> Should read: ^U!c).s GtriS.-iJ pOr-i 'CA-rrasj, /aj o-Hq^ losF- Reason assigned for change: 33 Page 3"7 Line / 7 Chou Id1 rree4j- 333 / 33 ^/fu cLajc! //Jcf yi/pp Reason assigned for change: 0 ajP o cjl & ptfi&r 3 / f^j Page 37 Line ^ Should read: /bjclyjPi / M^T TP' ft/BfiJP A&c)e//iy /3k Reason assigned for change: J 3 /#rz ! -y * >J P 3*Rzcp~/Jc sy 'y Page Line y Should read: rr\fitJr6th 7/>a>/> o i ffp/>e f) <? ppU- Twd p-Aafz Reason assigned-'for change: MZ. -jflJJjZ. Deponent HARTOLDMON0025508 DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET 2- In Re: Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be made: Page Sir Line U? Should read: cfe/vfiUj Hyzizoz PaAt' fiPP Reason assigned for change: OLA/t-rh/ Page Line // Should read: Tp? Hp Ofoew/s-tpy PAfaJ^< C Reason assigned for, change: CU\/Z!<ly , H-y That Page y] Line ^ Should read: ^ pcfa /Jc-o&Sft(<t-Y, / tOAS" //r* ' TlPj"-i- : 1 / Reason assigned for change: 77&Oe- c>r~ Page "7 Line Should read: C/fay, / Uyas yu i+ie/zq*0 to Reason assigned for change: * LAG't -hy tf/j JHZSJC*- &- y>Jc y-P-'P* VsltL* Page ~] L ine if . Should read: f j-bfet, AiaM*- SaJtJZ L/\ t? 0-><?& aP> fa L W>hCo>>-rtzs^ Reason assigned for change: d OMpl&PcAJe, slS" & Ay Page <yj Line / P Should read: pfa/Jr fafac). ycfad^'^/c.'iA-hC'tf j Reason assigned for change: fa c? cy ( fatjaA) Page tf ~7 Line ) ~? Should read: Tfais C4>,J/JecfadnJ< TtitylUtv WL a Of -fo Reason assigned for change: Coyzrp cP yPe-ss Page Line Should read: Pfajot*., TJi-A-f- VJSS U>h*f~ / UJ* P faaLcf s Reason assigned for change: Page JlPes^ Line M l Should read: . a fta/Jjr, Reason assigned for change: CfaLycfa ty e> CAXf2*- ;4zy iM-rr Deponent HARTOLDMON0025509 DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET In Re: Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be made: Page oj Line / Should read: cl /V)fi tJft Reason assigned for change: s_s" Page Line 0-- Should read: X) Q'fzcisU(zx fi> /JO afVU? 0 Reason assigned for change: A vp 77Uy -fe./Ztqob* r2- 77 / . -- Page <fO Line Should read: yi-k y P&c l> l/i/t- jxps /jp/> Reason assigned for change: VotO iR* ' , Page /O& Line Should read: 7~o/jy , fi/Jd 0^ Reason assigned for change: 3jD> bi/j.j C >W -b po-btAJ 71U- Reason assigned for change: (3 Ltfirz /r-y Page }Ol Line /"-/ Should read: eLEsA c*-<- tr ISeR/ts/ I - - ~ Reason assigned for change: (Jgcl&><. JZlpj-h 1 / & J Page 7^7 Line Should react: ^7% r-- -x Reason assigned for change: ChA(^\iy - Page '/PjPtufLlisnoe,,o <*=S- hould read: Reason assigned for change: lot fpiP /*) TtX f^j?? , a, ^ A. . ^ ni^> Page /^2_Line [X Should read: fifjp ifs ^)/y7/ ~pcbAj/cpl~ ''SaU'S pe<Df>U-^ Reason assigned for change: DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET In Re: Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be made: ! age Line ^ Should read: bc&ci F Ah'*t uVio N ae-^<SuK/)p p/ZactiL>.' Reason assigned for change: 14c Page 24 - 2_S>" Shou/^ read: Reason assigned for change: j-r c<soM iP / /d> Page i4l Line -2=S -Should roadr^ P j'sj"734c frJo 't.^f {3L&os) Reason assigned for change: / o&dl&( Page Line Should read: Reason assigned for change: Page Line Should read: Reason assigned for change: Page Line Should read: Reason assigned for change: Page Line Should read: Reason assigned for change: Page Line Should read: Reason assigned for change: Page Line Should read: Reason assigned for change: Deponent HARTOLDMON0025511 1 COMES NOW THE WITNESS JACK T. 2 GARRETT, and having read the foregoing 3 transcript of the deposition taken on the 4 1st day of April, 1992, acknowledges by 5 signature hereto that it is a true and 6 accurate transcript of the testimony given 7 on the date hereinabove mentioned. 8 9 10 11 12 1 3 Subscribed and sworn to me before this 1 4 day of 1 9 9 2. 1 5 My Commission expires: 16 17 'JOSEPH GEORGE' NOTARY PUBLIC-STATE OF MISSOURI ST. LOUIS COUNTY MY COMMISSION EXPIRES JULY 27, 1993 18 ]9 2 0 Notary Public 21 22 23 2 4 rg 28 RRE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 24 1 HARTOLDMONOQ25512