Document 4vzVkO3rODewdbEVmLKXXNyze
CPY
1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
2
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, )
3 Plaintiff,
)
vs.
)
4 PEPPER'S STEEL AND ALLOYS )
INC., FLORIDA POWER &
)
5 LIGHT COMPANY, NORTON
)
BLOOM, THOMAS A. CURTIS, )
6 WILLIAM PAYNE, FLORA B.
)
PAYNE and LOWELL PAYNE,
)
7 Defendants.
)
8 PEPPER'S_STEEL and ALLOYS,)
INC., and NORTON BLOOM
)
9 Cross-Plaintiffs, )
vs.
)
10 FLORIDA POWER &
)
LIGHT COMPANY
)
1 1 Cross-Defendant. )
12 FLORIDA^POWER & LIGHT~
T
COMPANY,
)
13 Cross-Plaintiff and Third )
Party Plaintiff,
)
14 vs.
)
PEPPER'S STEEL AND
)
1 5 ALLOYS, INC., et al.,
)
Cross-Defendants,
)
16 and
)
UNITED STATES FIDELITY
)
17 AND GUARANTY COMPANY,
)
et al.,
)
18 Third Party Defendants.
)
Case Number 85-0571-CIV-S PELLMAN
19 Deposition of Witness WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE
20 Volume I On Behalf of the Pepper's and Bloom
21 February 21, 1990
22 Direct Examination by Mr. Granoff. . . Page .6
23 Reported by:
24 CINDY KEAST PLOWMAN General Shorthand Reporter
25 o f
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD --------------------------- ( 3.1-4.).....7" 2 7-6 503---------------------
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c (:
1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS
2 Exhibit Number
OQ
366 4
367 5
Page Marked
8
35
Page Remarked
51
51 '
Page I den .
9
35
6 368
7
41
51 41
e 369
9
60
52 60
10
Descript ion
Copy of C.V.
Letter, 3-3-69, from E. Wheeler, PSA 001394
Letter, 2-18-70 from D.A. Olson, PSA 001397
Letter, 9-1-70, W.S. Papageorge W.C. Reinhardt, PSA 001656
to
1 1 370 12
52
52 Copy of Monsanto's PCB program, PSA 00167 thru 001686
13 371 14
55
55 Copy of PCB bullet in, PSA 000208 thru 000215
15 372 ie
62
62 Letter, 9-15-70, from J.G. Bryant, PSA 001409
17 373 1
64
64 Letter, 12-15-70, from R. Graham, PSA 001424
19 374
2C
21 375
22
69 80
69 80
Letter, 1-4-72, A.M. Salazar from W.B. Papageorge, PSA 001639
Composite exhibit. PSA 001658 thru 00166
2 S 376
24 377
25
87 112
87 112
Composite exhibit, PSA 001388 thru 1390
Composite exhibit. PSA 001391
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INDEX OF EXHIBITS
2 Exhibit Page
Number Marked
3
378
116
4
Page Remarked
141
Page I den
116
5
6
Descript ion
ANSI Guidelines for Handling & Disposal of Capacitor and Transformer-Grade Askarels Containing PCBs, #114858
7 379 8 9
150
150
Letter, T. Fair from W.B. Papageorge, 10-27-75, PSA 001694
10 380 11
158
1 58
Composite Exhibit,
# 147039 thru
147043
12
13
14
1
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
2-'=
24
2
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD 314 }--7 2 7-6 503
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DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, produced, sworn and examined on the part of the Pepper's & Bloom, pursuant to Subpoena and Notice, and pursuant to the following stipulation, between the hours of nine o'clock in the forenoon and six o'clock in the afternoon of Wednesday, February 21, 1990, at the Adam's Mark Hotel, Suite 855, 4th & Chestnut Streets, in the City of St. Louis, State of Missouri, before me,
CINDY KEAST PLOWMAN General Shorthand Reporter
of CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD.,
a Notary Public in and for the County of Marion, State of Missouri, in a certain cause now pending in the United States District Court, Southern District 1 of Florida, wherein UNITED STATES OF AMERICA is the Plaintiff and PEPPERS STEEL AND ALLOYS, INC., FLORIDA 1 POWER & LIGHT COMPANY, NORTON BLOOM, THOMAS A. CURTIS, WILLIAM PAYNE, FLORA B. PAYNE and LOWELL 1 PAYNE are the Defendants, PEPPER'S STEEL AND ALLOYS, INC., and NORTON BLOOM are the Cross-Plaintiffs, 1 FLORIDA POWER & LIGHT COMPANY are the Cross-Defendants, FLORIDA POWER & LIGHT COMPANY is 1 the Cross-Plaintiff and Third Party Plaintiff, PEPPER'S STEEL AND ALLOYS, INC., et al., are the 1 Cross-Defendants and UNITED STATES FIDELITY AND GUARANTY COMPANY et al. are the Third Party 1 Defendants.
1 Appearances:
1 For Pepper's and Bloom:
1
2
2
2
2
2
Keith, Mack, Lewis, Allison & Cohen Attorneys at Law 111 N.E. First Street Suite 500 Miami, Florida 33132-2596 By: Mr. Loren S. Granoff
AND Peterson & Bernard Attorneys at Law 707 Southeast Third Avenue P.0. Drawer 14126 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33302 By: Mr. Donald J. Fann
2
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD (314) 727-6503
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For Florida Power & Light Company:
Coll, Davidson, Carter, Smith, Salter & Barkett, P.A. Attorneys at Law 3200 Miami Center - 100 Chopin Miami, Florida 33131 By: Mr. Richard C. Smith
Plaza
For Home Insurance Company:
1C
Baker & McKenzie Attorneys at Law 701 Brickell Avenue, #1600 Miami, Florida 33131 By: Mr. Landon K. dayman
AND Thornton, David, Murray, Richard & Davis, P.A. Attorneys at Law 2950 S.W. 27th Avenue, Suite Miami, Florida 33133 By: Ms. Sheryl E. Berkowitz
100
11 For USF&G: IS 1 '
Rivkin, Radler, Dunne & Bayh Attorneys at Law EAB Plaza Uniondale, New York 11556-0111 By: Ms. Sarah A. Rumage
14| For Lloyd 1s 1 ie
Mendes & Mount Attorneys at Law Three Park Avenue New York, New York By: Ms. Elizabeth
10016 A. Nelson
ii For deponent and Monsanto
1
IS
2C
Smith, Helms, Mulliss & Moore Attorneys at Law 300 N. Greene Street Suite 1400 P.0. Box 21927 Greensboro, North Carolina 27420 By: Mr. Gerard H. Davidson
21 WILLIAM B. PAPGEORGE,
2 i being produced, sworn and examined on behalf of the
22 Pepper's and Bloom, deposeth and saith:
24
2
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DIRECT EXAMINATION 0 BY MR. GRANOFF:
Q. Mr. Papageorge, before we begin, my name 4 is Loren Granoff, as you know. I represent Pepper 9 Steel and Norton Bloom in this matter.
MR. GRANOFF: Let me just put on the record that I received a notification from Sheryl 0 Berkowitz that she's on her way and will be arriving 4 between ten-thirty and eleven and hopes that one or more counsel will accommodate her by allowing her to review their notes. I'm sure that won't be a problem 10 but she asked me to make a request, and I've done 1$ it. All right. 14 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Mr. Papageorge, your 1$ full name and where you live. 1$ A. William B. Papageorge. I live in St. Louis County in Missouri. 1$ Q. Your residence? 10 A. Oh, you want theaddress? 20 Q. Yes, sir. 2 X A. 321 Pebble Valley Drive, St. Louis, 20 Missouri, 63141. 20 Q. Okay. Mr. Papageorge, I'll be asking 24 you a series of questions today. I believe some of 20 my colleagues will also be asking you some questions.
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1 We may go into tomorrow as well. As well, I'll be 2 having you identify certain documents that you may 3 have offered or have been generated by Monsanto, and 4 there are other documents as well, and we'll see if 5 you can identify them. 6 I understand that you have been through 7 the deposition process before; is that correct? 8 A. That is correct. 9 Q. So you basically understand that as I 10 ask a question that we need a verbal response of some 11 type. It will be a lot better for the court reporter 12 when she prepares the transcript and for the lawyers 13 and your lawyer here as they're looking at the 14 transcript. Instead of uh-huh and um-um's, a yes or 15 no may be -- a verbal response will identify it. 16 A. I understand. 17 Q. Okay. If there's any question I ask of 18 you that you don't understand, please tell me and 19 I'll attempt to rephrase it to make it clearer. Fair 20 enough? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. How are you presently employed, 23 Mr. Papageorge? 24 A. I'm self-employed. 25 Q. And in what respect?
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A. I try to serve as an engineering consultant.
Q. And do you consult for or on behalf of Monsanto Company?
A. Yes. Q. In what respects? Could you identify, since your retirement from Monsanto Company, which I understand was December 31, 1986, the manner in which you have consulted on behalf of Monsanto? A. I have consulted with Monsanto in engineering matters, environmental matters, manufacturing, chemical manufacturing. Q. And in respect to environment matters, could you be more specific in the matters you have consulted on behalf of Monsanto? A. It's been primarily environmental issues relating to polychlorinated biphenyls. Q. As much as possible, we'll use the initials PCBs which you are familiar with, I'm sure? A. Yes. Q. Okay.
(Said instrument was marked as Defendants' Exhibit No. 1, 2-21-90, CKP.)
Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Now, we've got a number of Bates stamps on here. I'm going to be
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1 referring to the most bottom right-hand digits. It's 2 148 -- Bates stamped 148516. 3 Could you identify what has been 4 pencilled as Defendants' 1, sir? 5 A. This document is a copy of my curriculum 6 vitae. 7 Q. Okay. Is that current ? 8 A. Well, it takes it up to the day of 9 retirement from Monsanto. To make it current, a line 10 should be added to indicate I'm self-employed since 11 then. 1 2 Q. Okay. Let me just ask you some 13 background questions based upon this CV. As a 14 chemical engineer by training, your entire adult life 15 was spent in employment with Monsanto Company, 16 correct? 17 A. No . 1 8 Q. Excuse me. But for Phillips Petroleum? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. And Phillips Petroleum, you were 2 1 employed from 1947 to 1951. From 1951 forward, you 22 were employed by Monsanto Company? 23 A. That is correct. 24 Q. Okay. Now at one point in time -- you 25 can rely upon Defendants' Exhibit 1 or upon your
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1 recollection -- did you have personal contact with 2 PCBs? 3 A. Would you help me with the word personal 4 contact? 5 Q. Sure. In other words, a physical 6 contact with the liquid itself. 7 Do you want me to rephrase it for you if 8 you're uncomfortable with it? 9 A. Did I have a personal contact? I didn't 10 put my hands in it. 1 1 Q. Some people have put their hands in it. 1 2 A. I understand. That's why I'm 13 wondering. 14 Q. In what circumstances then, in reference 1 5 with Monsanto Company, have you been in a work 16 environment where PCBs were present? 17 A. The earliest that I recall, other than 18 being a -- standing under a transformer which 19 contains PCB liquids, the earliest I recall is 20 observing the plant electricians servicing 2 1 transformers at Monsanto manufacturing plants in 22 St. Louis when I was the maintenance superintendent 23 at that plant. 24 Q. And approximately what year, what time 25 frame are you talking about? And again, please rely
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upon any document you have. A. 1957 to 1959. Q. Before we get ahead of ourselves, let's
4 set some grounds rules, and possibly you could 5 identify, when we talk about PCBs and polychlorinated 6 biphenyls, what are PCBs? And if you can do it in a 7 general -- as much layman's terminology as possible. 8 A. I will try. 9 Q.. Thank you. 10 A. PCBs are a mixture of chemicals 1 1 belonging to a family of chemicals which are made by 12 subjecting a chemical called biphenyl to chlorine. 13 Chlorine combines with the biphenyl in a random way 14 to create polychlorinated biphenyls with different 15 amounts of chlorine, anywhere from one chlorine per 16 biphenyl up to ten chlorine per biphenyl. Is that 17 helpful? 18 Q. I think so. Would it be putting it more 19 into the usage that you probably are accustomed to, 20 and we as lawyers are becoming accustomed to, in 2 1 talking about PCBs, is it fair to say that PCBs is a 22 chemical compound which is used as a fire resistent 23 compound or liquid within electrical equipment? 24 A. That is one of the uses, yes.
Q. In the past, it's been one of the
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i primary uses for PCBs?
2 A. Yes.
2 Q. If not the primary use for PCBs?
4 A. Yes.
E
Vi
Q. Talking about these, the amounts of
e chlorine, is it my understanding -- Or strike that.
i Do I understand correctly that Monsanto
was one of the primary manufacturers of PCBs in the
United States from 1929 until early 1970?
1C A. Yes.
1 3 Q. And in connection with PCBs, as I
12 understand, the trade name is askarel. Would that be
IS the generic -- I guess the overall generic name would
14 be termed askarels, correct?
It A. Askarels is a generic term used by the
lt> industry to describe the fire resistent liquid used
17 in the electrical equipment.
if; Q. And as the lawyers have learned about
1 this case they've heard certain names like Pyranol,
20 Inerteen. And I know there are others but those are
2 ] actual trade names; is that correct?
27 A. Those are trade names, yes.
2 Si Q. Okay. Did Monsanto produce overall
2 ^ askarel generically and then the specific
2fi manufacturers would stamp their own trade name to it?
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In other words, G.E. may have Inerteen or Pyranol and Westinghouse may have Inerteen or Pyranol?
A. Monsanto made the PCB which was one-ingredient askarels. Monsanto sold PCBs to customers that used the PCBs in formulating their own askareIs. Also Monsanto custom-made the askarels based on specifications offered or insisted upon by the customers, such as General Electric and Westinghouse, and the material would be labeled Pyrano1 or Inerteen as appropriate before shipment.
Q. The custom-made liquids, as you've just 1 described, were these shipped directly from Monsanto 1 to manufacturers throughout the country? 1 A. Yes. 1 Q. Let's go back to -- I think you said the 1 earliest time when you were in an environment where 1 there was PCBs, you had contact with PCBs, was the 1 period of 1977 and 1979? 2 A. Yes. 2 Q. During that time frame, did Monsanto 2 require Monsanto workers to wear any protective gear, 2 and again, for those workers who were working with 2 PCBs? 2 A. There was a requirement for protective
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] gear but the requirement was the same for all 5 chemicals that the workers could potentially be Ji exposed to and limited and not specified as being 4 unique to PCBs. Such as, gloves, and safety glasses
fi or spectacles, clean clothing, and a change of 4 clothing, if the clothing should be contaminated.
Q. And possibly we're taking this out of
d step, but just so it is clear, when I use the term 4 PCBs and I reference it to the 1957, 1959 time frame,
PCBs were not known as such by Monsanto at that time;
11 is that correct?
.
1A.
That's correct.
13 Q. It wasn't until the late sixties or
14 early seventies that the term PCB became more of an 1$ awareness by Monsanto and others?
1$ A. That is correct. Q. For a number of year's, you were located
10 at the J.F. Queeney Plant? 10 A. Yes. 23 QQ.. Is that St. Louis? 2{ AA.. Yes.
Q . And I'm sorry. Do you want to add 23 something? 24 A . No . 25 Q . 0 k ay. I'm sorry. Then 1964 to
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1 1970 -- '65, you were, looks like general
2 superintendent of manufacturing at the Krummrich
3 Plant?
4 A. That is correct.
Q. And as general superintendent, what were
6 your overall duties?
1 A. I was assigned the overall
8 responsibility for the manufacture of a group of
9 chemicals and I was one of five general
10 superintendents of manufacturing. So all the
.
11 products made, at that plant, were divided into five
12 groups and I had one of the groups as my
13 responsibility.
14 Q. Which group was that, sir?
15 A. Oh, I don't know that it hadany unique
16 name. The chemicals were such things as phenol and
11 sodium sulfide, and some rubber chemicals.
18 And -
19 Q. Was -- Excuse me.
20 A. It's been so long I'd forgotten some of
21 them. It did not include PCBs.
22 Q. That was my next question. After your
23 stint as general superintendent at Krummrich, your CV
24 reflects that you became plant manager of the
25 Anniston, Alabama plant.
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A. That's correct. Q. That was the period from 1965 to 1970. Could you give me your overall duties as plant manager? A. I think that all boils down to, I was responsible for everything that took place at the plant during that period of time. Q. Were askarels present at the Anniston Plant? A. Yes. Q. In what fashion? Where did you find or where would you find askarels at the Anniston Plant? A. They were manufactured at that plant as well as present in the equipment that was used at that plant. Q. Did you have any experience -- Strike that .
Do you recollect that your workers, people who worked under you at the Anniston Plant from 1969 to '70, that there were any particular health problems associated with the contact with askare1s ?
A. I know I was aware and I recall only one incident in that four or five year period in which an employee, who was one of the senior people there,
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503
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1 very experienced, was careless and got his hands
2 contaminated with PCBs, and as a result, he had a
3 severe case of what I'm going to call chapped hands,
4 red skin, and reached the point of even bleeding a
5 bit where he had to go to the dispensary for medical
6 attention. That is the only incident relating to
7 PCBs, askarels in my experience.
8 Q. Did you or did others draw some sort of
9 causal connection between this worker's contact with
10 askarel and this later rash or symptoms that he was
1 1 suffering from?
*.
12 MR. SMITH: Object to the form,
13 compound, speculative.
14 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) You can answer. I'm
15 sorry.
16 A. Well, we were certain that was due to
17 the fact that the individual did not wear his issued
18 gloves which he knew he should be wearing for that
19 kind of operation that he was involved with.
20 Q. Was there a medical doctor at the --
2 1 assigned specifically to the Anniston Plant at that
22 time?
23 A. .Yes.
24 Q. Do you recall his name; his or her name?
25 A. Dr. James Francis.
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Q. And after this incident with this one
worker, was there a heightened awareness, on your
part, as plant manager, to make sure that workers
were following standard operating procedures to use
gloves and protective wear? Those workers, that
being who were working with askarel?
A. Well, certainly it brought my attention
back to the issue of proper use of the issue of the
equipment. I recall talking to the individual
personally. I went out into the plant during the
11 shift, the night shift that he worked and talked to
1 2 him and learned from him exactly what he did or did
13 not do.
14 I then reviewed with the supervision of
15 that unit the importance of reviewing during their
16 regular safety meetings to just reemphasize and point
1 7 out the example of what happens when you don't use
18 the equipment provided.
19 Q. Okay. The askarel that was being
20 manufactured at the Anniston Plant, was that heated?
2 1 In other words, was it at a certain high temperature?
2 2 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is there -- Strike that.
24 .
Was there specific protective gear for
those workers who were working with askarel when it
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was in a heated state?
2 MR. DAVIDSON: Can we go off the
3 record a minute?
4
MR. GRANOFF: Sure.
.
5 (Discussion was held off the record.)
6 MR. GRANOFF: Let's go back on. I
7 want you to read back my question, then I'll try to
8 get into clearifying.
9 (The requested portion of the record was
10 read by the Reporter.)
11 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Can you answer that,
12 sir?
13 A. The answer is, yes, there was.
14 Q. Could you describe what that equipment
15 or gear was?
16 A. Each employee was provided with the
17 clothing that I mentioned earlier, the hand
18 protection, safety shoes, as well as a respirator to
19 place over the nostrils and mouth in the event of
20 escape of fumes. Although, askarels when they're -
21 when I use the term, askarel, I'm talking about the
22 blended material ready for use in electrical
23 equipment which contains several components,
24 ingredients.
That material could be hot when it's
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blended and ready for putting into the containers and
r labeled. That operation in itself, with no leakage
or spillage, does not create a fume problem.
Q. I have used the term so far this morning
of askarel, I've used the term PCB. Just briefly,
what is the distinction between the two terms, so I
can be as clear as possible on this record today and
try to minimize confusion in a confusing area to a
non-technical person.
10 A. I'll try. The PCBs are available for
11 use in electrical equipment as a liquid, and the
13 liquid is clear liquid to a light amber color. I'm
13 trying to help you picture this. They are one u
14 component in a mixture of several that together are
19 referred to askarels.
19 The amount of PCBs in askarel can vary 17 from let's say thirty percent to fifty percent. The
19 remaining seventy percent to fifty percent, in most
19 cases, is a blend of chlorinated benzene, three 20 chlorine benzene, four chlorine benzene, which looks
2 i an all awful lot like lighter flood.
22 evaporates rapidly.
It's light,
23 The combination of PCB plus this
24 chlorinated benzene plus some other materials that
29 are added to help preserve the purity of this mixture
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1 to make it a good liquid for electrical purposes, is 2 referred to as the askarel. S Q. Okay. Did Monsanto, over the years, 4 from 1929 unti1 early 1970, manufacturer different concentrations of askarel? What I mean by that, C concentrations to the extent of different percentages 7 of PCBs within askarel? A. Yes. 9 Q. And just so we can move this along, 1C there were a number of different names or 11 concentrations such as Araclor 1260? 12 A. We're now confusing askarel with PCB. 13 Q. Okay. I don't want to confuse it. If 14 you could describe, when I use the term Aroclor 1260, 1 what does that identify? 1 A. That describes a Monsanto product which 17 is a hundred percent PCBs and it's a mixture of the 16 various PCBs. The total chlorine in that mixture is 15 sixty percent by weight. That's where the sixty 2C comes from in the expression and digits 12 6 0. 21 Q. Okay. What were the other 22 concentrations of chlorine that were manufactured by 22 Monsanto? 24 MR. SMITH: Time frame? 29 MR. GRANOFF: From 1929 until it
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wasn't produced any more. A. I'm trying to recall them all. There's
twenty-one percent, thirty-two percent, forty-two percent, forty-eight percent, fifty-four percent, sixty percent, and briefly, they also made that, as I recall, seventy-two percent chlorine.
Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Were all of those - Were all of those chlorine concentrations used as a dielectric fluid at some time in electrical equipment such as transformers?
MR. SMITH: Objection to the form, lack of foundation, no reference to a time frame.
A. All but 1270. The seventy-two percent -- seventy percent one was not used. It's a solid. All others were liquids. And at one time or another, they were used in electrical equipment early either as is or in blends.
Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Your CV reflects that in 1970 you assumed duties as manager, environmental control of the organic division in St. Louis. Could you describe what that job entailed?
A. I was responsible for coordinating activities and information relating to the then evolving PCB issue, PCBs as it impacted the environment.
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Q. How was it, in a corporate fashion, that
you got word down in Anniston, Alabama that, Bill, we
want you to come up to St. Louis to assume these new
4| duties?
3 A. Well, I was informed by my supervisor.
Q. Who was that, sir?
A. That was Raymond Stratmeyer. He
informed me that there was an issue that was becoming
9| quite important, that it seemed to indicate that PCBs
10 were being found in the environment. Since there
111 were two groups in Monsanto marketing PCBs, it was
12| believed that if one person could help coordinate so
13 the left hand knew what was right was doing, the
14| issue could be managed more responsibly. And I was
13 asked to go to St. Louis and interview for that
13 opening which was a new job that was being created.
1?! Q. Who are the two groups?
13 MR. SMITH: Excuse me. I'd like to
19| put an objection on the record as to hearsay from
23 Mr. Stratmeyer.
2U .
MR. GRANOFF: Well, I never heard
2 2j such an objection. Okay. I've heard of it but it's
23 not well founded.
24| Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Who were the two
23 groups marketing PCBs in that time frame? Let's talk
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about 1970 because I don't want to take It all the l way back to 1929. 1970.
A. There was one group that was referred to as the functional fluids group which marketed the : liquid PCBs for use. I guess, in a general kind of : way, you can say in equipment, hydraulic fluids, heat i transfer fluid or any electrical equipment. There i was another group that sold the PCBs as an ingredient to be added to plastics generally. That.group was } referred to as the plasticizer group.
Q. Were you aware, back in 1970, which of ij those two groups was selling more PCBs? 1 A . Yes . 1 Q. Which group was that , sir? 1 A . The functional fluids group. 1 Q. Would you have any idea, as we sit here 1 today and look back into 1970, what the percentage of 1 i| sales were? In other words, was the functional 1 fluids group selling eighty percent versus twenty 2 } percent for the plasticizers? 2 And it's not a memory quiz. I'm not 2 \ going to ask you to do any rank guessing, but as best 2 as you can recollect. 2 A. Without having an exact number, I would 2 say it was sixty/forty, sixty percent to the
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1 functional fluids and the other forty into this 2 miscellaneous plasticizer mix. 3 Q. Okay. As best you can recollect, what 4 was your reaction to the information back in 1969, I 5 assume, or 1970, when you were called by Stratmeyer, 6 that PCBs were becoming a very important issue? 7 A. As I recall, my initial reaction was one 8 of surprise really that they were being found in the 9 environment. And based on what I personally knew of 10 these materials, I found it hard to understand at 1 1 that time. 12 Q. I think you testified just a couple of 13 minutes ago that the creation of this new post in 14 1970, as manager of environment control, was being 15 done by Monsanto to manage the issue more 16 responsibly? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Was the issue -- In other words, the PCB 19 issue being addressed wasn't addressed by anyone at 20 Monsanto prior to the decision to name you as head of 2 1 environmental control or the manager of environmental 22 control? 23 A. It was addressed by several individuals, 24 depending on the particular expertise required to 25 respond to information or to seek data.
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26
Q. Could you Identify the individuals and what duties those individuals had assumed up until 1970?
A. I think it would be better if, rather than individuals, that I describe the functions because there were several individuals within each function.
Q. Fair enough. A. For example, in the analytical chemistry research group, that group designs methods for 11 analyzing for chemicals, they were very interested, 12 of course, in how to analyze for PCBs in different 13 kinds of samples, in water, in air, in fish tissue, 14 whatever was appropriate, so they were addressing 15 that particular area. 16 Another group in the research department 17 was addressing, looking for alternative materials 18 that would not persist in the environment. There was 19 a group in the medical department that were arranging 20 for studies to determine what effect these chemicals 21 would have on birds, mammals, fish. There was a 22 group in the manufacturing department that was 23 addressing the issue of how do we keep these 24 materials from going down the sewer or up the stack. 25 Those are the examples I can think of at the moment.
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503
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1 So it was fragmented. 2 Q. Yes. And I assume that you understood 3 your new^job as of 1972 coalesced the research, the 4 and medical and manufacturing ends of Monsanto to 5 address this evolving PCB issue? 6 A. That is correct . 7 Q. Now, I believe you used the term 8 persistent in the environment in reference to PCBs? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Could you describe for me, in layman's 11 terms, as best you can anyway, what you mean by that? 12 A. What I meant by the term persistent is 13 the fact that some PCBs, when released into the 14 environment and finding their way into waterways or 15 soils or plants, would be found there for years after 16 the initial exposure. 17 Q. When you say some PCBs, are you talking 18 about particular concentrations as to the amount of 19 PCBs in an askarel or the level of chlorination? 20 A. I'm referring to the level of chlorine 2 1 present in each PCB. The PCBs with five or more 22 chlorines per biphenyl would resist degrading in the 23 environment. They would be identifiable long after 24 the initial spill or the initial release. 25 Q. You identified earlier certain
\ CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. --------------------------------------------------------------(-3X5-]--7 2 7-6 5.0 3----------------------------------------------------
WATER PCB-SD0000060223
28
concentrations of chlorine that were manufactured by
Monsanto. I don't think I jotted all the numbers
down, but as far as the liquids, I think I understood
as high as the number 1260 and as low as 12.
A. 1221 .
Q. Excuse me. 1221. In that range of 1221
to 1260 Aroclors, what was the more persistent
Aroclor that was found in the environment?
MR. SMITH: Objection to the form
1C for lack of foundation.
11
, A.
I don't know that I can answer the way
1 2 you worded your question.
1 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Okay.
14 A. The persistent types of Aroclor are the
IE five chlorines, six chlorines, seven, eight, nine and
ie ten chlorines. Some of these are present in many of
11 the commercial mixtures that I described earlier by
le percent chlorine. For example, Aroclor 1242, which
is is forty-two percent chlorine, has in it some of
2 C these persistent types of chlorines. I have
2 3 forgotten at the moment what percent. It's something
2 2 like ten percent of that mixture could be reasonably
2: classified as the persistent types.
24 The other ninety would, within
21 reasonable time -- and by reasonable, I'm going to
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503
WATER PCB-SD0000060224
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1 say a five, ten year period after the initial spill, 2 the analytical chemist would not find in it a sample. 3 But the five chlorines and above could very well 4 still be there and identifiable. 5 Q. Were the -- Did I cut you off? 6 A. No. I forgot your initial question. 7 Q. I'll try to go back a little bit. Were 8 the persistent Aroclors found in each concentration 9 from the spectrum of 1221, Aroclor 1221 through and 10 including Aroclor 1260? 11 A. 1221 did not have any. Starting with 1 2 1232, the persistent types could be found. The 13 higher the chlorine percentage, the larger the 14 quantity of the persistent types would be present. 1 Which reminds me, as I think here, there
1 e was a modified PCB introduced in 1970, 1971 in which
17 these persistent chlorine -- persistent PCBs were 1 8 removed and that was referred to by Monsanto as 15 Aroclor 1016. 2 C Q. Okay. Were the concentrations -- Strike 2 1 that . 22 Were the Aroclors 1232 through 1260 and 2S including 1260 used in electrical equipment such as 24 transformers, to your knowledge?
2$ A. Yes.
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. ---------------------------(314)--7~2T-65~0"3----------------------
WATER PCB-SD0000060225
30
3
Q. Now, you come back
to St. Louis for your
3 new position as manager of environmental control. Is
0 there someone at that time, one person or more that
4 you went to in order to try to coalesce the
i information, as fragmented as it may have been, to
0 try to put it all together? Did you have a direct
V supervisor or someone who was going to show you the
ft ropes at that point?
Si
A. Of course, I had adirect
supervisor.
10 Q. Who was that?
l:.
A. Howard Bergen. But
I personally sought
13! out the individuals who were very close to the
III particular areas that I mentioned earlier, research,
1<, analytical, medical, manufacturing, marketing, and
lii spent as much time as it took in a -- it's a
10 one-on-one tutorial with bulletins and pamplets and
1'' literature, newspaper clippings, whatever was
10 appropriate.
1 Si I started to collect all that for my own
20 education in the matter. That was done within
2:, Monsanto in the period -- it really started late
22 December 1969 before I officially showed up on the
20 job, and it was quite intense the first three or four
2h months, but it continued from then until I was
20 released of the total assignment.
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503
WATER PCB-SD0000060226
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3 Q. So as of December of 1969, you were on a
2 learning curve in connection with PCBs and its
c
Vi
suspected environmental hazard?
4 A. Yes.
Q. Did you attempt to find out, beginning
in -- let's just say 1970, because that's when the CV
2 reflects you began your new position -- whether
anybody out there in the manufacturing community
5 anywhere in the United States had any knowledge about
1C this suspected PCB issue as a evolving environmental
13 issue? And if that's too vague, I ' 1.1 clarify it.
1 2 A. When I -- when I arrived to take on
1 these new responsibilities in 1970, I was aware that
14 several, if not many, of the electrical equipment
1 manufacturers who used PCBs in their askarels had
ie been informed of an evolving PCB issue.
11 Q. How did you learn that information? How
1 did you gain access to that information?
15 A. Well, I was given a copy of a letter
2 C that was mailed to some of them in which the author
2 3 attempted to summarize what Monsanto knew of the
2 2 issue at that time. This was issued in 1969, as I
,23 recall, early 1969. That was an attempt to update
24 the key or the largest users of PCBs as to what was
2 evolving so they wouldn't be caught by surprise in
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. T3T41 727-6503
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32
future times. Q. When you say the largest users, do you
mean companies like General Electric, Westinghouse, Allis-Chalmers, other transformer manufacturing companies?
A. Yes. They were among -- in that list, yes .
Q. Okay. So it was your understanding in 1970 that Monsanto had already provided information to certain members of manufacturing communities in connection with PCBs?
A. Yes. Q. Okay. My question's a little bit different than that though. When you get to your new position in 1970, did you find out from any - whether any other companies or laboratories or entities had any information about this evolving environment issue other than what had already been disseminated by Monsanto? A. I'm not aware of any company being aware of this PCB issue other than Monsanto's customers through that letter I talked about. But there were laboratories that were active, government laboratories as well as university laboratories. Q. Did you initiate any direct contact with
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503
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33
1 any of these laboratories beginning in 1970? 2 Obviously if it's 1971, the question would still 3 stand the same way. 4 A. Yes. We --r and by we, I'm talking about 5 Monsanto representatives, I being one of several -- 6 made contacts with these laboratories. At this point 7 in time, I don't recall who made this specific 8 contact, but we did make contacts with a laboratory, 9 for example, that was the fish pesticide laboratory. 10 At that time, I believe it was part of the Department 11 of Interior located in Columbia, Missouri, and 1 2 because we understood that one of their principle 13 investigators was studying the effects of PCB on 14 fish. This is fresh water fish. 15 We made a contact with the water 16 laboratories, which in 1970 were being transferred to 17 the newly formed DPA in Athens, Georgia and Deluth, 18 Minnesota who were studying the effects of PCBs on 19 aquatic life. We had a contact with an investigator 20 in California who was reporting to the popular 2 1 press -- this was Dr. Robert Risebrough in Berkley, 22 California, University of California, Berkley. He 23 had found PCBs in some samples he took relating to 24 pelicans off southern California and was suspecting 25 that the PCBs were causing the pelicans to suffer
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503
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34
reproduction problems. We also made a contact with a
laboratory, a fish laboratory located in Gulf Breeze Florida that, at that time, was part of the Department of Commerce as I recall. They were 6 conducting studies of PCBs on marine life, saltwater 7 creatures, and had determined that very low levels of 8 PCBs were harmful to juvenile, young shrimp. 9 We also -- I had a contact with 10 investigators at Cornell University, Dr. Peacall, 11 David Peacall, who in his studies was suspicious that 12 the presence of PCBs was harming the peregrine falcon 13 population. 14 We had, through Monsanto European 15 representatives contact with the University of 16 Utrecht in the Netherlands. And later on, I was with 17 a group that personally visited that particular 18 laboratory as well as visited with the -- what was 19 called the government chemist in London that was a 20 top analytical individual in the British regulatory 21 system. It's not quite like a U.S. system. 22 That's all that comes to mind at the 23 present regarding other laboratories, entities 24 interested in the issue.
Q. All right.
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503
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35
1 MR. GRANOFF: Can we take around a
2 two minute break? I want to take a short break
3 because we have a lot of work to do today.
4 (Deposition stood in temporary recess.)
5 (Said instrument was marked as
6 Defendants' Exhibit No. 2, 2-21-90, CKP.)
7 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Could you identify
6 what's been marked as Defendants' 2, please?
9 MR. SMITH: Does this have a PSA
10 number on it? 11
/ MR. GRANOFF:
Bates number of
1 2 001394. It's a letter dated March 3, 1969 from
13 Monsanto Company.
14 A. This is a copy of a letter to customers
15 on Monsanto letterhead authored by Elmer P. Wheeler.
16 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) And have you seen this
17 letter before, sir?
18 A. Yes, I have.
19 Q. Are you familiar with the letter? Would
20 you like to take some time to review it?
2 1 A. I am familiar with it.
22 Q. Could you briefly describe the gist and
23 contents of this letter?
24 A. This letter is an attempt, on
25 Mr. Wheeler's part, to summarize Monsanto's knowledge
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. -----------------------------------------:--------------------("3T~4.J..~TTT=~6 5 0 3-----------------------------------------------------------
WATER PCB-SD0000060231
36
of the state of the environmental PCB issue as of 2 March of 1969. 3 Q. You said it was a letter to customers. 4 What do you mean by customers? 5 A. These are companies that purchased 6 Monsanto's PCB products and were listed as such on 7 Monsanto's records. 8 Q. I assume that you did not have a direct 9 input into the substance of this letter; is that 10 correct ? 11 A. That is correct, uh-huh. 1 2 Q. When you began your new position in 13 1970, what was the -- what was your relationship with 14 Elmer P. Wheeler? 15 A. Mr. Wheeler was my principle contact in
1 e the medical department regarding PCB toxicity
17 studies. 18 Q. Was this a medical doctor? 19 A . No . 2 C Q. Do you know or have you -- Strike that. 2 1 Have you learned, at any time since you 22 first saw this March 3, 1969 letter, the manner in 2 ' which Monsanto was able to get the names of its 24 customers or purchases for PCB products? 2 B In other words, was there a form mailing
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503
WATER PCB-SD0000060232
37
list of some type that was utilized? A. Yes. I'd call that -- It was a mailing
list by business groups broken into the various products and it consisted of those customers who had 5 purchased these products for at least three years, 6 went three years back from the date of mailing. And 7 it was compiled from records in the order department. 8 Q. You say order? 9 A. Order department is the department that 10 services the customers' orders. It was compiled also 11 from the accounts receivable department. So we had 12 two types of entities there, one is the ship to 13 address and the other is the bill to address. 14 Q. Okay. I assume that if we were to look 15 at that list, as it existed in 1969, that we will see 16 names like Westinghouse and General Electric and 1 7 Allis-Chalmers, for instance, on that list? 18 MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading. 19 A. That's a good assumption. 20 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Okay. Have you ever 21 had the opportunity to see the list that was utilized 22 by Mr. Wheeler back in 1969 to send out this March 3, 23 1969 letter? 24 A. I don't remember this particular list. 25 I could well have seen it because I've seen so many
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. T3T4) 727-6503
WATER PCB-SD0000060233
38
in 1970 . Q. Okay. A. When you say you saw many, you've seen
so many lists in 1970, what type of lists are you talking about?
A. Customer lists that received different mailings that occurred in 1970.
Q. Were utilities on the list that you reviewed in 1970, uti1ity. companies? 1C A. Yes. 1 3 Q. How was it that utility companies were IS! on this lift for correspondence that were eventually 1 7 sent to these companies? n, A. On occasion, the utilities would order 17 the askarels delivered to their plants at different 1 Cl sites for use in the equipment. Sometimes it was a 1 7 matter of topping off, very much like you add oil to 1{I your car if the leve1 gets a little low. And some of 17 them would conduct even more extensive maintenance 20 work. They would completely drain a unit and refill 23 them. So they have would have a need for fresh new 27 material. 27 Q. Have you reviewed any particular 2 4r documents in preparation for today's deposition? 20 A. Yes, I have.
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. ( 314 ) 727-6503
WATER PCB-SD0000060234
39
1 Q. Have you reviewed any mailing lists, for
2 instance?
3 A. A mailing list? No.
4 Q. The documents that you have specifically
5 reviewed are documents that were provided to you by
e Mr . Davidson?
i A. Some of them, yes.
8 Q. And you reviewed documents that you c maintain in your -- at your home or in your
1C consulting business in connection with PCBs?
11 A. No. I did not. I don't have any.
13 Q. All right. IS MR. DAVIDSON: For the record,
14 Mr. Granoff, we have reviewed documents produced by
13 Monsanto, furnished by Monsanto, to your client that 1 e you indicated would be the subject of examination
17 here today, or myself, as well as a stack of
1 documents not produced by Monsanto but furnished by
IS you as indicated that might be subject to examination
2 C today.
21
MR. GRANOFF: All right.
I
22 appreciate that.
23 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Going back now to the
24 utilities throughout the United States that may have
21 purchased askarels directly from Monsanto, do you
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503
WATER PCB-SD0000060235
40
3. recollect whether one of those companies was Florida 0 Power & Light?
A. I recall seeing Florida Power & Light on 4 a list of customers.
Q. Are you saying by that that Florida ^ Power & Light was one of the customers that purchased
askarel directly from Monsanto in St. Louis? $ A. Yes. 0 Q. Do you have a recollection of the time
frame that Florida Power & Light purchased askarels directly from Monsanto? l ;* A. Well, since I recall seeing that list in 10 early 1970, it would have to be prior to early 1970. Hr I do not recall any specific dates. 10 Q. All right. I think you said that what
i A was relied upon in compiling these customers lists
i was customers which had purchased askarel for at
1 a least a three year period? is A. Yes.
20 MR. SMITH: Object to the form of 2: the question. Mischaracterizing his statement. 2 2 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) I'm sorry. 2 0 A. Point of clarification. I'd like to 2<< clarify this three year period that I described. 20 Q. Okay.
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503
WATER PCB-SD0000060236
41
A . This does not mean that a customer
purchased material each of the three years.
Q. Okay.
--
A . What I meant -- intended to indicate
there is that individuals at Monsanto perused the
records as far back as three years to pick up any
additional customers that might have purchased
materials three years ago and did not purchase any
more. We wanted to make sure that we communicated
with them in the event they still had a drum of
material in their back lot.
Q. Okay. (Said instrument was marked as
Defendants 1 Exhibit No. 3, 2- 21-90, CKP.)
Q (BY MR. GRANOFF) Defendants 1 3, please, sir?
Could you identify
MR. SMITH: While he's reading, can
you give us a prefix number?
MR. GRANOFF : Oh, I 'm sorry. PSA
001397, letter of February 18 , 1970 on Monsanto
letterhead
MR. SMITH: Two pages?
MR. GRANOFF : Yes . Two pages.
24 A . This exhibit is a copy of a letter
2 mailed in February of 1970 to customers of Monsanto
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY , LTD. ( 314 ) 727-6503
WATER PCB-SD0000060237
42
3 who manufactured electrical equipment in which PCBs 2 were used, and the author of the letter is Donald 5 Olson of Monsanto. 4 Q. As of February 18, 1970, you had assumed your new position as manager of environmental control; is that correct? 7 A. That is correct. e Q. Did you -- Do you recall any direct g input on this letter authored by Mr. Olson? 1C A. Yes. I was involved in reviewing the 1 1 drafts of this letter and similar letters. 1 2 Q. I believe you testified that this letter 1 was disseminated to customers of askarels 14 manufactured by Monsanto Company, that being 1 electrical equipment manufacturers? ie A . Yes. 17 Q. Do you recollect whether their letter i e was exclusive to electrical equipment manufacturers? is A. Yes. 2 C Q. In other words, this is not a letter 2 1 that was sent out to all customers who purchased 22 Monsanto manufactured askarels over a number of 2 c years? 24 A. No. They would have received a similar 2 letter with a different last paragraph.
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503
WATER PCB-SD0000060238
43
1 Q. Let's talk then, speak to rather, the 2 last paragraph and the last two sentences. The 3 language reflects that, "we are notifying the 4 purchasers of such equipment of the potential 5 environmental contamination problem described in this 6 letter." That's correct, is it not? 7 A. That's what it says, yes. 8 Q. Do you know what was intended by that 9 clause of that sentence? 10 A. Well, the intent was that we wanted to 1 1 make certain that the purchasers of electrical 12 equipment containing PCBs were informed. Monsanto 13 had no way of getting a list of purchasers of that 14 equipment. It would have been an impossible task. 15 And we wanted to make certain that somehow they were 16 tuned in, and we use those last two sentences to 1 7 emphasize that to the receiver of that particular 18 letter. 19 Q. When you used the term purchasers of 20 such equipment - 2 1 A. -- Uh-huh. 2 2 Q. -- did you have in mind, for example, 23 utility companies? 24 A. That's one of the purchasers, yes. 25 Q. Do you recollect whether a separate
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. T3T41 727-6503
WATER PCB-SD0000060239
44
1 letter, at any time, was ever sent to purchasers of
2 the electrical equipment?
3 A. Some purchasers of the electrical
4 equipment that were on Monsanto's mailing list got a
5 letter.
6 Q. Was that letter written in the first six
7 months of 1970, as best you can recollect?
8 A. Pretty close to that, yes.
9 Q. Is it likely that Florida Power & Light
10 would have been issued a letter within the first
11 months of -- first six months of 1970 which described
12 the evolving PCB environmental issue?
13 MR. SMITH: Objection to the form.
14 A. Very likely, yes.
15
Q. (BY MR.GRANOFF)
And this is a letter
16 that would have been issued by Monsanto Company?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. In connection with the letter -- I don't
19 have it -- I don't think I have it in front of me
20 today, but maybe as I go through it, I might -- you
21 might be able identify it. In connect ion with the
2 2 letter that was sent to the purchasers such as
2 3 Florida Power & Light withi>n the first six months of
24 1970, was that letter substantially -- did it
25 substantially reflect the -- what we have on this
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503
WATER PCB-SD0000060240
45
1 Defendants' 3?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. If you could turn to Page 2 of
4 Defendants' 3, please. The second paragraph, first
5 sentence, I'll read it verbatim just for everybody's
6 benefit here because I don't think they have it. "We
7 feel that all possible care should be taken in the
8 application, processing and effluent disposal of
9 these products to prevent them becoming environmental
10 contaminants." Is that a fair and accurate
1 1 representation?
.
1 2 A. Yes.
13 Q. Is it your recollection that that
14 particular sentence or a sentence to that effect was
15 contained within the letter that went to the
16 purchasers within the first six months of 1970?
1 7 A. Yes.
18 Q. In connection with the letter that was
19 sent to the purchasers, do you know who authored the
20 letter?
21 A. Are we going to limit this to the
22 dielectric application or to all PCB applications?
23 Q. Dielectric applications.
24 A. Dielectric? Mr. Olson.
25 Q. Mr. 0 Ison?
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. -------------------------------------------------------[_3TT1--7 2 7-65 03----------------------------------------------------
WATER PCB-SD0000060241
46
A. Yes. Q. Do you recollect what was meant by the phraseology, application, processing and effluent disposal? In other words, care should be taken in the application, processing and effluent disposal. What was meant by that phraseology? A. It was an attempt to find the proper words to cover all possible situations in which the material could be found. And by application, we 1C meant as you use it in service. If it's in a unit,
i a don't let the unit leak. As you fill the unit, be
1 2 careful how you fill. In processing, in the event, 1 2 the customer makes his own blending with other 14 ingredients. Or the word processing could also mean 1 in taking it from a storage tank into the building,
1 e the manufacturing building, and into the product;
11 that could be applied, referred to as processing. 16 Effluent disposal was intended to cover 15 both water effluent and air emissions, and it was 2 C intended to cover solid waste like dirty rags and 2 3 soaked sawdust and what have you. 2 2 Q. Was -- Strike that. 26 Thank you. In connection with direct 24 sales that were made to Florida Power & Light of 2 askarel, do you know which facility within the
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503
WATER PCB-SD0000060242
1 Florida Power & Light system was receiving the
2 askare1?
3 A. I don't at this point in time. I'd have
4 to look at that list again.
5 Q. All right. Was it your understanding
6 that utility companies, at the time that you began -
7 Strike that.
8 Was it your understanding that utility
9 companies, at the time Monsanto began issuing these
10 letters advising purchasers of Monsanto's askarel it
11 was an environment hazard, that environmental -
12 excuse me -- that utility company had their own
13 equipment repair center which which were receiving
14 askarel directly from Monsanto?
16 MR. SMITH: Objection to the form.
16 A. Not necessarily.
17
Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF)
What does that mean?
18 A. To take the utility as an example, the
19 utility could order several drums of an askarel in 20 anticipation of needing that to service their
2 3 equipment . In some cases, the utility itself wou1d
22 have the capability of doing its own servicing if the
2 3 job was a very small one that they were capable of
24 handling.
26 In other cases, they may hire a
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. ----------------------- ("3.1'4 ) ..TZ.7 - 6 5 073--------------------
WATER PCB-SD0000060243
48
] contractor who's In the business of servicing these 2 units to come into the plant and do what is 2li appropriate and the material is available, it was 4 ordered directly from Monsanto.
Another way that the utility name could 4 appear on a Monsanto list would be for, as an
example, the General Electric or Westinghouse service 8 units they had to service, have many locations 4 throughout the country. They would order the
replacement liquid, so many drums to be shipped to a 1 utility. Bill General Electric, ship to Power & 12! Light Company. That's another way the Power & Light 121 Company's name would appear, the ship to list. 1<, I thought I had another example. Those 1 it are some of the ways in which material could arrive 1$ at a utility. And how it was -- who used it 1 eventually, we are in no position to know. 18 Q. Well, I'm a little unclear then as to 1< your responsibilities. Was one of the options in 2 Q) direct sale to utility, the potential for it, the 2 utility equipment repair center to receive the 2i askarel in a direct shipment? 2 2) MR. SMITH: Objection to the form, 2 4 r speculation. 2$ A. That is an option, yes.
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD (314) 727-6503
WATER PCB-SD0000060244
Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) In connection with a your position as manager of environmental control,
what impetus did you provide to this evolving PCB 4 issue in connection with involving groups such as ANSI? e A. I don't know how to measure the impetus i I might have given. I did my best to get those individuals that could contribute to the resolution c of the issue or better understanding of the issue to 1C talk to each other to communicate to initiate studies 1 3 or even make suggestions that we could pursue. 1 2 Q. Let me ask the question a different 12 way. We'll get to the ANSI C-107 Committee. 14 After you had an opportunity -- and I 1 think you said the first three to four months were a 1 very intensive learning time for you in 1970. 1' A. All right. 1 Q. Thereafter, did you believe that there 15 needed to be some coordinated uniform guidelines for 2 C the handling and disposal of askarel, Askeral-soaked 2 3 materials? 22 A. Well, I too evolved and finally 22 concluded that a coordinated effort was needed. 24 Initially, my intent was to communicate to anyone 2i associated with the use, transfer, disposal of PCBs,
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. T3T4~5 727-6503
WATER PCB-SD0000060245
0
to do their best to keep it out of the environment in 5! hopes that each company or individual involved was in 0 the best position to come up with the solution to his 4 particular situation.
At that time, I could not see myself in 4 a position where I could advise the thousands of 7 possible customers and their plants just how to i ventilate their building or how to design their sewer 4 systems and the like.
But as time went on and the number of 1i customers became limited only to the dielectric 13 application, it became a situation where the 1$ practices were a little bit more uniform and would 14 lend themselves to a standard approach to cope with 1$ this problem. 1$ MR. GRANOFF: Let's mark this, 17 please. 10 (Said instrument was marked as 10 Defendants' Exhibit No. 4, 2-21-90, CKP.)
Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Could you identify 2i Defendants' 4?
MR. GRANOFF: And for everyone 20 else, this is PSA 001656, a letter of September 1, 24 1970 . 25 A. This is a copy of a letter which I wrote
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD (314) 727-6503
WATER PCB-SD0000060246
51
back in September 1970 and addressed to a 2j Mr. Reinhardt at Moloney Electric Company.
Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) It's a brief letter, but could you even briefly state the gist of this letter? And I believe there's an attachment as we 11 .
A. Well, the letter refers to my 8| understanding that the NEMA organization was going to 9| contact the ANSI group for the establishment of 10 handling standards. And it also refers to the fact 111 that I had composed two paragraphs summarizing the 12| PCB issue, as of September 1970, so that the 13| recipient of this letter could go to the ANSI board 14| of directors to convince them that this was a 15| worthwhile project for ANSI to sponsor. 16j (Whereupon Ms. Berkowitz entered the 17| deposition room.) 18( MR. GRANOFF: Just make a note of 19| Ms. Berkowitz's appearance. And Sheryl, do you have 20| a copy of the sequential numbering system? 21| MS . BERKOWITZ : Yes , I do . 22| (Said instruments previously marked as 2 3| Defendants' 1, 2, & 3 were re-marked as Exhibits No. 24| 366 thru & including 368, 2-21-90, CKP. ) 25| Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) In connection with
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503
WATER PCB-SD0000060247
52
the MR. GRANOFF: We have didn't 4. We
can mark that one. (Said instrument was marked as Exhibit
No . 369 , 2-2 1-90, CKP. ) Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Mr. Papageorge, in
reference to 369 and attachment, by September 1, 1970 had you concluded that the evolving PCB issue was in fact a real issue to be confronted by Monsanto and those who were using askarel?
MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading and vague.
A. By 1970, I had concluded that the presence of PCBs in undesirable locations was a fact. And I'd concluded that proper methods of handling were virtually dictated if the industry was to continue to use PCBs in electrical equipment.
(Said instrument was marked as Exhibit No. 370, CKP.)
Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Could you identify what's been marked as Exhibit 370, please?
MR. SMITH: Is there a PSA number? MR. GRANOFF: PSA 001671 through 001686 and it is Monsanto's PCB Program. Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Can you identify No.
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-- is it 370? A. Yes. This is a copy of the statements I
made at what I refer to as the organization meeting for ANSI NEMA Committee C-107 which took place September 14 of 1971.
Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) By September 1971, had Monsanto instituted their own tests and evaluations to determine whether the previous studies that had found PCBs in the environment in fact were accurate? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And generally, could you tell me the 12 conclusions of Monsanto's own studies as of September 13 1971? 14 MR. DAVIDSON: With respect to 15 presence in the environment? 16 MR. GRANOFF: Yes, sir. 17 A. By 1971, as I indicated earlier, even by 18 a year before that, Monsanto studies confirmed that 19 the reports received from around the world regarding 20 identifying PCBs in various environmental samples 2 1 were correct and the types of PCBs identified were 22 correctly identified. 23 Q. By September 1971, had Monsanto's own 24 evaluations and analyses reflected that the presence 25 of PCBs posed a danger to the environment?
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A. No. No. It was a matter of presence. Q. Was there ongoing, as of September 1971, evaluation and studies by Monsanto to determine 4 whether the presence of PCBs in the environment posed 5 an environmental danger? 6 A. There were no studies sponsored by 7 Monsanto that specifically addressed the situation 8 you just described in terms of effect on the 9 environment. 10 Q. As of September 1971, was Monsanto 11 collecting information from third parties which had 12 reflected the third parties' analysis or evaluation 13 of whether the presence of PCBs were posing a danger 14 upon the environment? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And can you recollect whether these 17 third parties' studies reflected that the presence of 18 PCBs were posing a danger to the environment? 19 A. I recollect two studies that described 20 an undesirable effect to the environment. One had to 2 1 do with the effect on young shrimp in the Gulf of 22 Mexico. And the other had to do with the effect on 23 salmon eggs in the Pacific Northwest. And I recall 24 also a reference to an incident that occurred in the 25 North Sea in which seals and birds were alleged to
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have been affected by PCBs.
Q. Who was Mr. Benlgnus?
A. Mr. Paul Benlgnus was the marketing
manager in Monsanto who was responsible for the
dielectric product line that Monsanto sold.
Q. And -- Excuse me.
A. That 1s it .
8 Q. What was his relationship, if any, with
9 the ANSI NEMA C-107 Committee?
.
10 A. Mr. Benignus was not a member of the
1 1 NEMA organization but he was invited to participate
1 2 in the deliberations that a committee within NEMA
13 held regarding the sponsorship of a program to
14 establish proper handling methods for PCBs. He
15 served on a, what was called a steering committee,
1 6 for this particular effort, and he continued as an -
17 what I'm going to call unofficial member of that
18 group, in its deliberations and he held that same
19 sort of relationship when it became a part of the
20 ANSI program.
2 1 (Said instrument was marked as Exhibit
22 No. 371 , 2-21-90 , CKP. )
23 Q . (BY MR. GRANOFF) Can you identify
24 Exhibit 371, please?
25 MR. GRANOFF: And it's a PSA No.
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1 000208 dated July 1971, PCB Bulletin. Excuse me. It's No's. 208 through 215 composite. A . This is a copy of a Monsanto bu1let in describing the handling, waste control and disposal
l of PCBs . Q. (BY MR. GRAN0FF) Excuse me. Handling,
waste control and disposal? A . And disposal, yes. Q. Do you know who authored this
memorandum? Excuse me. Who authored this bullet in? A . There were several of us involved. I
think the principle writer or the editor, if I can ; call him that, the person who pulled it all together,
was Mr. Benignus. Q. Do you recall whether you were involved i with the formation of this PCB bulletin of July of ' 1971? i A . Yes, I was involved. i Q. Who is the audience for this PCB i bulletin?
A . The intended audience was the dielectric ! business -- industry. i Q. And who did that encompass? In other r words, was it the equipment manufacturers solely or > was it the purchasers of askarel?
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A. It was, at that time, those customers A still purchasing PCBs.
Q. Did Monsanto, for purposes of issuing 4 this bulletin, utilize a customer list in order to
issue the bulletin? e A. Yes. i Q. Were utilities on that customer list? 6 A. I don't recall in 1971 that a utility c was on that list. I do not remember. 1C Q. You identified earlier a letter that was 1 3 issued probably within the first six months of 1970 12 to direct purchasers of askarel. Do you recall that? 1 2 A. Yes. 14 Q. Do you recall whether you used the same 1 list to send out the July 19 71 bullet in as you 1C utilized for the list to send out to purchasers of 11 askarel within the first six months of 1970? 1 A. I believe this was a shorter list. 15 Q. You believe this, meaning? 2 C A. 1971 was a list of current customers as 2 3 distinguished from the more extensive earlier list 25 which went back at least three years. 22 Q. So the intended recipients of the July 24 1971 bulletin would be based upon those customers 2Ei who, at that time, were current purchasers of
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i askarels from Monsanto? A . Correct. Q. That may or may not include a particular
4 utility such as Florida Power & Light? MR. SMITH: Objection to the form.
$ Leading.
A. That is true. $ Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) In your position as 4 manager of environmental control, beginning in 1970 l(j> and going forward into 1971, when you had your, I
think, September 1971 -- when you had your first
.
12 organizational meeting for the ANSI C-107 Committee,
10 taking that time frame, did you, Bill Papageorge,
14r consider yourself on behalf of Monsanto as somewhat 1 ii of an educator to the industry and users of askarel
16 as to its presence in the environment and potential 17 as an environmental contaminants?
A. I don't know that I thought of myself as
19 an educator of industry although I fulfilled that
2Cp role when I was requested to and time permitted.
I
would describe it more realistically by saying that I 2i felt myself as an educator of the sales 2 :i representatives who in turn called on the customer. H, I made sure that he was up to date and then tried to 2!j> determine, as best I could, whether he did go out and
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L
...
f f... !
1 talk to the customer and carry the message forward.
2 And also I had him report back to me his
s0* observations to help me kind of get a better picture
4 of what the real world was like.
R Q. In a broader sense, though, did you find
6 that in contact with third parties, in other words,
1 people outside of Monsanto employment relationships,
that third parties were unaware of -- beginning. c again, we're looking at the time frame of 1970 to
1C September 1971 -- that third parties were unaware of
1 1 the presence of PCBs in the environment before you
1 2 were actually disseminating information to them?
12 MR. SMITH: Let me object to the
1 4 form of the question.
1
ie objection. li
MS. RUMAGE: Join in the MR. SMITH: Where does third
1 6 parties come from? There's not two parties yet.
19 MR. GRANOFF: Withdraw. We'll do
2 C it again.
2 1 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) In the time frame from
2 2 1970 to September '71, did you find that in your
22 contact with purchasers of askarel manufactured by
24 PCB -- manufactured by Monsanto, that they were
unaware of the scope and extent of PCBs in the
-- --------
CM
o
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environment ? A. Some of them were very much aware. In
fact, they were closer to it than I was early in 1970. There were others that were caught by surprise, and what is all this? Suddenly they began to hear things.
So I sensed they had the full spectrum of understanding, from the very knowledgable, sophisticated, to little concern that just heard about it. In fact, they hadn't heard the expression PCBs yet.
Q. What was the focus of the C-107 Committee?
A. The focus was to first gather together the best information it had regarding the proper methods of control to prevent escape into the environment, and secondly to put it all in one document, one source. And third to disseminate this information as widely as practical.
Q. What was the method of selecting attendees to serve on the committee?
A. The steering committee in NEMA devoted a considerable part of a meeting they held in 1970 to developing a potential list of participants. And the intent was to refer not only to the manufacturers of
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the equipment, but they wanted, of course, the users
of the equipment, which meant such entities as
utilities, as we11 as industrial concerns, such as
General Motors and Ford and U.S. Steel and what have
you.
And of course, government must be
represented not only as a regulatory entity but also
8 as a user, such as the Department of Defense, the
9 Corps of Engineers, as an example; the Department of
10 Transportation, and the like, Department of
11 Commerce.
12 And then the group was also interested
13 in gaining some inputs from the research, the
14 technical community, the various laboratories either
15 in governmental agencies or in universities.
16 Q. Were you initially chairman of this
17 Committee C-107? Strike that.
18 Were you the first chairman of the C-107
19 Committee?
20 A . That 1s correct, yes.
2 1 Q. And was the C-107 Committe then further 22 subdivided into working groups or subcommittees?
23 A . Yes.
<
24 Q. Could you describe those, please? 25 A . Two working groups were formed of the
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1 committee, one group to address the use, manufacture, 2 transport of transformers, and the other to address 3 similar activities relating to capacitors. 4 MR. GRANOPF: Okay. Let's take 5 about five minutes so I can get my documents 6 organized for the next series of questions. 7 (Deposition stood in temporary recess.) 8 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Before I get to some 9 of the substance of the C-107 Committee and what they 10 did, I need to go back and review some documents with 1 1 you that preceded C-107. 12 (Said instrument was marked as Exhibit 13 No. 372, 2-21-90 , CKP. ) 14 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) All right. Could you 15 identify Exhibit 372, which is a letter dated 16 September 15, 1970 with a PSA No. 001409? I'm going 17 to have to share this with you Mr. Papageorge. 18 A. This is a copy of a letter, Monsanto 19 letterhead, authored by James G. Bryant for customer 20 mai1ing. 2 1 Q. What was Mr. Bryant's position as of 22 September 1970? 23 A. He was the technical specialist located 24 in St. Louis in the group that marketed dielectric 25 fluids.
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Q. In your position as manager of 2 environmental control, did you communicate with 3 Mr. Bryant in connection with the evolving PCB issue? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And though this is a brief letter, could 6 you just give the gist of the letter. 7 A. Well, it 1 ss informing the recipient of 8 the letter that the askarel fluids supplied by 9 Monsanto contained PCBs and that the FDA had 10 announced a guideline of PCBs, five parts in tissue 1 1 and two-tenths parts in milk. Therefore, control of 1 2 waste and spills is imperative. In no case should 13 the material be discharged into streams. 14 Q. I think you identified it as a 1 5 customer -- that you identified Exhibit 372 as a 1 6 customer letter, correct? 17 A. That is correct. 1 8 Q. Did you have any input in connection 19 with the draft of the substance of Exhibit 372? 20 A. I reviewed the pencilled draft and 2 1 agreed to the word it proposed. 2 2 Q. Do you know which customers were 23 targeted for the September 15, 1970 letter authored 24 by Mr. Bryant ? 2 5 A. This is the list of customers that I
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described earlier that went back at least three years. Those customers had also received a February 1970 letter relating to PCBs.
Q. And does it also include the list of purchasers of direct -- Strike that .
Does it also include the list of those purchasers who directly bought askarels from Monsanto and a letter that I think you described that went out in the first six months of 1970?
A . Yes . Q. Is it likely that Florida Power & Light was sent a copy of the September 15, 1970 letter authored by Mr. Bryant? A . Very likely.
MR. SMITH: Objection for lack of foundation.
MR. GRAN0FF: And did you get the response?
A . Very likely. i (Said instrument was marked as Exhibit
No. 373, 2-21-90, CKP.) Q (BY MR. GRAN0FF) I'll have you
identify, if you can, 373, which is a letter dated December 15, 1970 on Monsanto letterhead, and it has a PSA No. of 001424. And I'll have to share it with
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65
you. MS. RUMAGE: Can you give me the
the date again? MR. GRANOFF: 12-15-70.
A. This is a letter, Monsanto letterhead, 6| authored by Randall Graham, addressed to customers of 7| dielectric fluid containing PCBs.
Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) And briefly, could you describe the gist and contents of the letter? Of Id course, take your time to review it if you need to. It A. Mr. Graham is asking the recipient of 12) this letter for information regarding the amounts of 13 solid waste material contaminated with PCBs that they 14| are disposing so that we can use that information to 13 consider the design and installation of a kiln which 13 would be designed to destroy the PCBs in that waste 13 matter. 13 Q. Is another name for kiln an incinerator? 13 A. Yes. I generally -- However, 20 incinerator could either -- apply to either solids 21 and liquids, where a kiln is generally thought of as, 23 at least of my understanding, as to solid material23 Q. Specifically for solids? 24 A. Yes. 23 Q. Who was Mr. Graham, as of December of
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i 1970? A. He was field representative from
3 Monsanto responsible for the dielectric PCB 4 containing liquids that Monsanto sold.
Q. What do you mean by field $ representative?
A. He was the man that called on customers 6 and went to their plants and talked to their people 4 and, where possible, made plant tours, looked over
their facilities. I looked upon him really as my 11 extension of my eyes and ears out in the industrial 12 wor1d. 1? MR. FANN: Manufacturer's rep? Is 14 that what it's like? I'm just trying to get it clear 1$ in my mind. 1$ THE WITNESS: He was really a It product representative, Monsanto's product. The 1$ product was such that it didn't really need a 1$ salesman. Each customer knew what it wanted but he
was the man that we would first talk to regarding 2% anything new in terms of pricing and delivery and 2% properties and so on. 2$ Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Is Mr. Graham still 24 with Monsanto? 2$ A. No
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67
Q. Do you know if he1s still alive? A . The last I heard he was, yes. It's been
awhlle.
Q. Haven't any inc1incat ion as to where he presently resides?
A. Best -- It's in the northeast somewhere.
Q. Not in the St. Louis area?
A . That is correct.
Q. correct?
Not in the St. Louis area; is that
A . That is correct.
Q Did you have input -- Strike that. Do you recall any input into the
December 15, 1970 letter authored by Mr. Graham?
A . Yes. Mr. Graham called me over the
telephone and read this proposed wording to me. And
after some discussion, and I don't recall the
specifics, we agreed on this version.
Q And do you recollect what list was
relied upon by Monsanto to issue the December 15
letter to customers?
A . The best I can recall, for this
particular letter, it was the manufacturers of the
electrical equipment.
MR. SMITH: I'm sorry. Did you say
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dielectric or electrical? THE WITNESS: I think I said both.
I meant electrical equipment. Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) At some point in time
after 1970, did Monsanto develop an incinerator in order to accept askarel fluids for incineration?
A. Did you say after 1970? Q. Yes. A. Yes. Q. Approximately what was the -- when did that service commence by Monsanto? A. The collect ion of the material to be incinerated began in the latter part of 1970. The incinerator itself was placed into operation, as best I recall, the late summer of 1971. Q. Was there a letter issued by Monsanto to its customers of askarel which asked them to identify the amount of liquid waste askarel so that Monsanto could design an incineration plant ? A. Mr. Graham put together some information. I don't recall a letter. I think, to the best I recall, Mr. Graham made the contact personally either -- well, by telephone or by a call, and relayed back to me in St. Louis a rough estimate of the amount of material that we might expect.
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Q. When you say as to the estimate of the amount of material Monsanto could expect, we're now focusing on liquid waste askarel?
A. That is right. Liquid. Q. Do you recollect whether Florida Power & Light transported liquid waste askarel to Monsanto beginning anytime in 1970 and then forward? 8 A. I recall seeing a list of which Florida 9 Power S: Light -- Florida. Power & Light was listed, 10 with the quantities of material and the dates of the 11 material received and some description of it. 1 2 Q. Description of what? I don't understand 13 what you mean. 14 A. Such description as askarel or Aroclor, 15 or whatever the bill of lading had on it. 16 MR. GRANOFF: Mark this, please. 17 (Said instrument was marked as Exhibit 18 No. 374, 2-21-90, CKP.) 19 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Could you identify the 20 documents which -- the document which has been marked 2 1 as Exhibit 374, and is a letter of January 4, 1972, 22 PSA 001639? 23 A. This is a copy of a letter I wrote 24 addressed to Mr. Salazar of the NEMA organization in 25 which I forwarded some abstracts of papers presented
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1| at a meeting In North Carolina. 2 Q. Could you speak up just a little bit, 3 Mr. Papageorge? 4 THE WITNESS: Do you want me to 5 repeat it? Did you hear? 6 MS. BERKOWITZ: I heard. 7 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Okay. I'm sorry. 8 A. I don't know what else to say. 9 Q. Did you attend the symposium put on by 10 the National Institute of Environmental Health 11 Sciences in Durham, North Carolina, December 20 1 2 through 21, 1971? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Did you speak at that symposium? 15 A . No . 16 Q. Do you have a -- Strike that. 17 Do you have any records in your 18 possession presently which reflects the subject 19 matters that were addressed at that symposium? I 20 don't mean that you have them here but do you have 2 1 any file which reflects that? 22 A. I do not. 23 Q. Do you know -- Strike that. 24 Do you recollect any of the speakers 25 from that symposium? And I know it's been some
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71
time. A. As best as I can recall, there were
representatives of the Duluth, Minnesota Water Laboratory, Dr. Risebrough, who I mentioned earlier. He gave a presentation. Dr. Peacall from Cornell was there. Dr. Herbert Blumenthal from the Food & Drug Administration made some comments. There were 8 several representatives from Japan that made some 9 comments regarding an incident that occurred in Japan 10 with rice soil contaminated with PCBs. 1 1 Q. Yusho? 12 A. Yusho incident? 13 A. There were some people -- some 14 investigators out of the wildlife laboratories in 15 Maryland. I think it's the Laurel, Maryland, 16 L-a-u-r-e-1, Pautuxet Laboratories. They had some 1 7 remarks about impact of PCBs on wild birds. That's 18 all I can recall at the moment. 19 Q. That's fine. At the time of this 20 letter, January 1972, which you sent to Mr. Salazar 2 1 with a attachment, correct, there were comments that 22 you submitted to Mr. Salazar with the cover letter? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. The comments of the speakers at the 25 symposium?
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1 A. No. They weren't comments. Someone in 2 the National Institute of Environmental Health wrote 3 some abstracts, a paragraph or two from each of the 4 papers. And they were sent to the attendees, and I 5 had sent -- I made extra copies and sent one to 6 Mr. Salazar. 7 Q. Do you recollect whether the information e as to the abstracts was shared with the attendees of 9 the C-107 Committee? 1C A. Yes, it was. 11 Q. As of January 1972, do. you recollect 1 2 where the committee was in connection with the 13 drafting of its proposed guidelines? In other words, 14 had it begun its drafting process? 1 A. It had definitely begun drafting. 1 e Starting to put their thoughts on paper and trying to 17 arrive at a consensus as to the wording. They had IE not completed their work yet because additional 15 subjects were introduced to pursue and evaluate. So 2 C from 1972, I would say they were eighty percent 2 3 completed, if I can come up with an estimate of how 2 2 far along they were. 2 Q. What was the mechanism by which the 24 attendees decided upon the issues to address in 2 C-107? What I mean by that, I'm sure that, depending
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73
upon the attendee, one attendee may have a certain
suggestion to put into the report, and I can only
imagine that other attendees may have objected to
that. So how was the consensus formed as to subject
matter?
A. I don't know that it's any different
from any other committees that meet.
A lot of
8| discussion takes place. Some ideas, of course, are
9| accepted immediately and assignments are made. Okay,
10| you write the paragraph on that issue. Others
111 require more study and assignments are made. You go
12j back and do some researching on this and get some
13| numbers or whatever is appropriate. Still others are
14| voted on and they just don't get enough support and
Id they're tabled. So I sense that all kinds of
1 | reactions were entertained in that room.
17| Now what would happen is, I would go
1 S( from committee to committee and sit in as they broke
1 S| off into working sessions so I was able to observe
20 some of this. I don't know what else to add there.
2 3| Once the group decided that the proposed
2 2| item was applicable and did apply generally, they
2$ would address it. Sometimes a suggestion was so
24 specific to one particular customer that it wasn't
23 deemed to be appropriate for worldwide distribution
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] and that would be tabled, not considered any i further.
Q. Organizationally, you had two 4 subcommittees, the capacitor and transformer p subcommit tees?
A. That's correct . Q. And those separate subcommittees d addressed the separate issues which were inherent to 4 those two areas, that being the capacitors and transformer groups; is that correct? A. Yes. And then those areas that were li common to both activities, they would assign working 1$ groups, smaller working groups, to meet jointly and l4 come up with a proposed wording for that particular 1 $ item. 1$ Q. Was it a necessity for a majority vote? It In other words, if you have a particular issue that 1$ is brought up within the transformer subcommittee, 1$ was it necessary for a majority of the attendees on 20 the transformer subcommittee to agree to an issue 21 that would be placed into the proposed guidelines? 2% A. The majority was the minimum. In most 2$ cases, it was much more than just simple majority. 24 Q. So when you -- When you used the term 2$ consensus, in most times you are reflecting that
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75
3| anything that is within the proposed and final C-107 guidelines received acceptance of at least a majority
3 and usually more - A. -- That is correct. Q. -- than? During the process of C-107, beginning
with the organizational committee, I think in September 1971 and then working forward, what changes did Monsanto make in connection with its marketing 1C and distribution of askarels? What I mean by that 1 3 is, did Monsanto attempt to limit the marketing and 1 2 distribution of askarels? 16 A. Yes. Starting in January '72, Monsanto 14 limited its sale of askarel fluids to those customers 16 who were willing to sign an indemnity agreement 1 e regarding the -11 Q. Okay. 16 A. -- understanding and proper care and 15 handling of PCB containing fluids. 2 C Q. And what do you understand an indemnity 2 3 agreement to mean? 22 A. Well, I'm not a lawyer, but I understand 2 6 that should any problem arise from the disposal or 24 use or transportation, or what have you, of those PCB 25 containing fluids, that the customer would -- what's
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76
the proper word -- would be solely responsible for managing that issue in a legal and environmental sense and what have you.
Q. Okay. Were you involved in drafting the indemnity agreement?
A . No . Q. Did you review the indemnity agreement where it was finally issued by Monsanto to its customers? A . No . Q. Then I assume it was strictly a legal matter for the Monsanto legal department and outside counsel? A. Well, I know Monsanto legal department was involved. I do not know of any outside counsel involvement. I do know that the business managers were involved. Q. The indemnity agreement was sent to customers of askarel manufactured by Monsanto, correct ? A. Yes. If the word askarel includes the pure PCBs also. Q. And what customer list was utilized in order to send the indemnity agreement to customers of PCBs manufactured by Monsanto?
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77
A. These were the manufacturers of the 2 equipment in which the askarels were used. 3 Q. Up until January 1972, was Monsanto 4 continuing its marketing of PCB sales directly to 5 is? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Did Monsanto issue the proposed 8 indemnity agreement to utility companies that were 9 directly purchasing PCBs from Monsanto? 10 A. Not to my knowledge. 11 Q Do you know why that wasn't done? 1 2 A . No, I don't . 13 Q. Did you ever inquire why that was never 14 done ? 15 A. Well, I can -- I did ask. And as best I 16 understood, it was that the volumes involved were so 17 small that it was considered best for control 18 purposes that these manufacturers of that electrical 19 equipment continue to supply the fluids rather than 20 have all these small shipments scattered throughout 2 1 the country to all the users of transformers. 2 2 Q. Okay. I'm a little confused. As of 23 January 1972, did Monsanto discontinue the direct 24 sale of PCBs to utilities? 25 A. Yes.
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1 MR. CLAYMAN: I'm sorry. Was that 2 discontinue? 3 MR. GRANOFF: Yes. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) And more -- Do you e have a more precise date? In other words, was 7 January '72 the date or was it prior to that then or 8 subsequent to January 1972? 9 A. The indemnity arrangments became 10 effective in 1972, and by the time all companies that 11 did sign up agreed to sign up -- I think it was 12 probably February, March, and somewhere in that time 13 period of time -- those companies that agreed to the 14 indemnity agreement received a letter from Monsanto's 15 marketing director informing them that their 16 customers, the owners of the equipment, would no 17 longer be supplied and that they would have to be the 18 source of the material. 19 Q. Did Monsanto issue letters to the 20 utilities advising the utilities that Monsanto 21 intended to discontinue the direct sales of PCBs to 22 the respective attendees? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And what list was utilized in order to 25 issue this letter to the utilities advising of the
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79
1 discontinuation of direct sales? 2 A. This was the list of customers on record 3 as having purchased this -- these products for at 4 least three years. 5 Q. As I understand it, if the utilities, 6 subsequent to January 1972, wished to purchase PCBs, 7 then one form of purchase would be directly from the 8 manufacturers? 9 MR. SMITH: Object to the form. 10 MR. GRANOFF: I don't want to 11 misstate anything. If that is a misstatement, please 12 let me know. 1 3 MR. SMITH: You're missing 14 manufacturers of what? Of askarels? 15 MR. GRANOFF: Okay. 16 A. To manufacturer askarel. That was the 1 7 only way they could get it in the United States. 1 8 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Okay. The only way 19 for a utility to purchase PCBs subsequent to January 2 0 1972 was from an electrical equipment manufacturer; 2 1 is that correct? 2 2 A. That is correct. 23 Q. Okay. Did you understand that utilities 2 4! or other purchasers of PCBs could obtain PCBs in 25 direct purchase from oversees suppliers?
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L A , I understood that some of that did occur. But I have no personal proof that it did
3 happen. MR . GRAN0FF: Now, just let me put
on the record, I have certain documents here that I have marked up, put a checkmark on them, something to that effect . I'm going to ask Mr. Papageorge though to utilize these documents. And I'm going to have them marked as exhibits. If you have an objection. then so note it, but I don't think it's going to disrupt the integrity of the document itself.
MR . SMITH: Can you show us what you mean?
MR . GRAN0FF: Yes, I will. MR . GRAN0FF: Mark this, please. (Said instrument was marked as Exhibit No. 375 , 2- 21-90, CKP ) Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) All right. I' d 1 ike for you to identify, if you can, Mr. Papageorge, what has been marked as composite Exhibit 375. It ' s PSA 001658 through 1667. MR. CLAYMAN: I see some -- MR . GRANOFF: There is some checkmarks in some black ink and some yellow highlighting.
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MR. CLAYMAN: Circling of the name 2 of Doble Engineering. 3 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Could you take a look 4 at this, please, sir, and see if you can identify 5 that composite exhibit. 6 I wouldn't be overly concerned with that 7 first page, but I would -- I don't know about them. 8 We 1 re lawyers. You know. 9 MS. BERKOWITZ: This may be an 10 unecessary comment but just as long as -- we'll allow 11 that in as long as you don't later on go back and 1 2 claim that was some type of work product and try to 13 protract it from the record. I just want to - 14 MS. RUMAGE: Rivkin, Radler joins 15 in that. 16 MS. BERKOWITZ: It's not that we 17 don't like you. 18 MR. FANN: I don't like you and I 19 object to you 20 MR. GRANOFF: It's a general 2 1] consensus that nobody likes me. At least , I put on a 2 2j nice show here. 23 MS. BERKOWITZ: Thank you for 24 that. 25 A . This exhibit consists of minutes of a
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3 ANSI C-107 meeting held in Chicago on February 8 and
2 9 of 1972. It also consists of two letters, of which
2 I am the author. Both letters are addressed to the
4 committee chairman Mr. Raab and Mr. Posefsky.
Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) What are the dates of
$ those letters, sir?
A. The one letter is dated January 19, 1972
$ and the other one is February 2, 1972, in which I
responded to questions raised by the two chairman.
Q. There's a list of attendees to the
meeting of February 8 through 19, 1972 of the
10 capacitor and transformer working groups, and
10 specifically there is, as noted, others present. A
14 representative Mr. A.O. Hauser, H-a-u-s-e-r, of the
1$ Electrical Utilities Company.
1$ Do you know who the Electrical Utilities
Company is, sir?
1$ A. Yes.
10 QQ. Could you tell me what they are? 20 AA.. They were a company that manufactured
21 capacitors.
22 Q. Do you know where they were located? 2$ A . Outside of Chicago in that northern
24 Illinois area. 2$ Q. What is
Who is the Electric Light &
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1 Power Group, do you know?
Z A. I understand that that is a group to
which utilities belong.
4 Q. Is that the utilities as you reference them generically throughout this country?
e A. Yes.
i Q. Do you recollect, without looking at any
documents, but do you recollect whether the Electric
5 Light & Utilities Group was an attendee on the
1C finalized C-107 guidelines?
i a A. Yes.
1 z Q. Do you know the purpose of the Electric
IE Light & Utilities Group? Is it some sort of -- In
14 other words, a consortium of utilities within this
1 country?
ie A. It's my understanding it's typical of an
i: organization -- It represents that particular
IE industry.
is Q. Is Mr. Onishi a representative of the
2 C Electric Light Utility Group?
2 a A. Yes. He was one of them.
Mr. -- It
2 Z started with Lengefeld or something like that. He -
2Z was the principle and he would have alternated when
24 he could not attend.
2 E Q. Do you know both Mr. Onishi and
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Mr. Lengefeld?
A. Yes.
Q. Personally, you know them?
A. I met them during these meetings.
Q. Do you know if either of those gentlemen
is still alive?
A . I do not .
Q. Your last contact with either of those
gentlemen would be in the early to mid 1970?
10 A. Yes.
l Q. You haven't seen either of those
1 :i gentlemen since then at symposiums or conferences or
10 meetings?
n, A. I have not. 10 MR. GRAN0FF: Since we're going to
10 be getting to the area of C-107, maybe this is a good
IV time to take a break. We're right around noon time.
10 Is that good for you, Mr. Papageorge, since you're
19 the witness?
20 THE WITNESS: Whatever the group
2 wants.
20 2 0 the group.
MR. GRAN0FF: I don't care about I'm concerned about you. The group can
20 suffer, as far as I'm concerned.
20 THE WITNESS: All right. We're
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1 trying to make it democratic, I guess. 2 MR. GRANOFF: I'm going to go some 3 time this afternoon. I expect to finish this 4 afternoon. I can't tell you exactly when. I expect 5 to finish this afternoon. So do you want to come 6 back at one-fifteen, one-thirty, one o'clock? 7 MR. SMITH: One-fifteen. It ought 8 to be pretty convenient to find a place to eat. 9 (Deposition stood in luncheon recess at 10 approximately 12:00 noon and resumed at approximately 11 1:30.) 12 AFTERNOON SESSION 13 All parties present, except Ms. Sarah 14 Rumage, by and through counsel, and the witness, 15 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, having been previously sworn, 16 testifies further, to-wit: 17 CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION 18 BY GRANOFF: 19 (The requested portion of the record was 20 read by the Reporter.) 21 Q. Let me direct you, Mr. Papageorge, back 22 to Exhibit 375. And the records indicate that E.L. 23 Raab was the chairman of the transformer 24 subcommittees; is that correct? 25 A. That's correct.
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Q. Did you have direct contact with Mr. Raab in connection with his duties as chairman of the transformer subcommittees?
A. Yes. (Whereupon Ms. Rumage entered the
deposition room.) Q. And he reported to you either verbally
or in writing as to where the subcommittee was going on certain issues?
A. That is correct. Q. I'd like to direct you to your letter of January 19, 1972. That's PSA 001663, letter of - letter to Mr. Raab and Mr. Pozefsky, and have you tell me what the gist of that letter is.
A. This letter describes to Mr. Raab and Mr. Pozefsky the analytical sensitivities of different procedures used by Monsanto, FDA or USDA, in determining the presence of PCBs in samples.
Q. What particular samples are you referring to in that letter?
A. The letter does not make that clear. Q. Based upon your recollection, what were the sources of analysis? A. As best as I can recall, this had to do with water samples.
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Q. Also, as part of composite Exhibit 375, 2 it is a letter of February -- looks like February 2, 3 1972, by you to Mr. Pozefsky and Mr. Raab, which 4 attached a question and answer for ANSI PCBs -- PCB 5 rather. 6 Could you describe for me the nature of 7 this questionnaire? 8 A. The two committee chairman submitted to 9 me a list of questions asking for my answers, and 10 this particular letter and the question and answer 11 sheet is an attempt to respond to that request. 12 Q. So the questions were generated by the 1 3 respective subcommittees and the answers are authored 14 by you? 1 5 A. Correct. 16 Q. May I see them, please? Okay. 17 MR. GRANOFF: Let's mark this, 18 please. 19 (Said instrument was marked as Exhibit 20 No. 376, 2-21-90, CKP.) 2 1 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Could you identify, 22 please, Exhibit 376, which is PSA 001388 through 23 1390? 24 A. This exhibit is composed of three 25 sheets. The top sheet is a copy of the address
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1 label. The next two sheets --
2 Q. Excuse me. The address label is
3 reflecting what information?
4
A.
Reflecting -- This is the copy of the
5 label of the recipient of the attached letter which I
6 composed and mailed in April 1972.
7 Q. And in this particular case, reflecting
8 Exhibit 376, who was the proposed recipient of this
S particular letter?
10 A. Plant manager, Florida Power & Light,
11 611 West 6th Street, Miami, Florida, 33101.
12 Q. Do you recall actually reviewing the
13 mailing list and finding the mailing -- the address
14 for the plant manager or was that delegated to
IE somebody else?
16 A. What was -- I don't know what was
17 delegated.
18 MR. DAVIDSON: When this was done?
19 MR. GRANOFF: Yes. When this was
20 done .
2 1 A. When this was done, there were several
2 2 pages similar to this top sheet, all with envelope
23 labels with adhesive with the addressees typed on
24 them. And copies were made of those and I perused
2 E those lists to get an understanding of who was
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receiving the letter. Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Okay. Do you
recollect, back in April '72, whether the address which appears on the first page of Exhibit 376, that being plant manager, Florida Power & Light, 611 West 6th Street, Miami, Florida, was the only address for Florida Power & Light? 8 A. I have seen so many of these that are 9 similar. I really don't remember. 10 Q. Was the label that appears on the first 1 1 page of Exhibit 376 to the plant'manager for Florida 1 2 Power & Light, was that the -- for one of the 1 3 customer lists that you had? 14 A. Well, this information came off of a 15 list. It was transferred to this. 16 Q. Was it a customer list? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Customer list for purposes of someone 19 who was purchasing PCBs from Monsanto? 20 A. Someone who either was purchasing or had 21 purchased. 22 Q. Okay. All right. Now, can we discuss the nature >of the April 1972 letter?
A. Well, it's-Q. And take your time to review it.
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A. I think I remember it well enough to remember. Tried to serve several purposes. One is d to remind -- in the past, they'd been told of the 4 PCBs environmental issue. The other was to inform them that Monsanto was receiving a lot of pressure e from governmental representatives to divulge information that many of our customers would not d permit us to divulge, such as quantities of material, 4 what types of material, where delivered, and when delivered, and the like. H We pointed out to them we didn't think 1$ that we can resist this request forever, and 1$ eventually we would have to divulge that l4 information. And we reminded them if this should 19 happen, they better have their house in order because id an inspection might take place. 17 And we also brought them up to date on Id some FDA activity which was occurring at that time. 10 Q. Okay. May I see that, please? You 2(J authored this letter? 2: A. Yes. 2% Q. Let me direct you to the last paragraph 2$ of the letter. What was the meaning of the last 24 paragraph which you authored? 2$ A. Well, the intent there was to underscore
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again the idea that PCBs should be properly handled, and the word extreme care is used in that sentence.
Q. In connection with the term, disposal, that is used in your letter, can you recollect what you meant by the term disposal?
A. Oh, in 1972, proper disposal included such things as incineration of liquid waste, burial in approved landfills of solid waste. Those are the only two wastes I can recall at the moment.
Q. Was there a consideration, at that time, that a utility, such as Florida Power & Light, was 1 disposing of electrical transformers or parts of 1 electrical transformers to scrap dealers? 1 A . Yes. Consideration was given. 1 Q . And how was that consideration 1 manifested? Unless you're saying that that 1 consideration is part and parcel of that last 1 paragraph, and I don't know. 1 A. It's in my mind, it was covered. I 2 didn't try to isolate all the examples of disposal 2 problems. I do know that the industry was aware of 2 metal contaminated with PCBs. I do know that they discussed at these ANSI meetings, many of them talked about using solvents to -- I'm going to use the word -- degrease the unit before it was sent on for
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I scrap purposes.
5: I recall vividly how some discussion
II centered on the temperatures involved in melting
5 scrap metals and whether the temperatures were enough
5 to destroy any PCB contamination. So it was not a
0 new issue. It was addressed.
7 Q. You've used the term now, in your last
{I answer, response, PCB contamination. Does that have
Si a particular meaning to you? Not necessarily here,
Id as we sit here today, but back in the time frame of
l:. 1970 until you completed your work -- I have to look
17 back at your CV -- as manager of -- Strike that -- as
III director of environmental operations in 1985?
15 A. Contamination, as used with reference to
15 PCBs in thatperiod of time, was used to
refer to the
15 presence of PCBs in unintended situations where it
17 served no useful purpose.
15 Q. Could you give me some examples of that
IS) definition?
20 A. Well, we use the expression
2:. contamination when we refer to milk that had PCBs in
21! it. We used it in terms of fish fillets with PCBs in
20 it. It was used in terms of soil containing PCBs or
25 waterways, streams, lakes. Not only surface water
25 but the bottoms of these lakes containing those were
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i all considered contamination. The waste from a plant such as the
sawdust or the kitty litter type of material that's used to clean up a spill, that was considered 3 contaminated material. The rags used to wipe up a minor spill. The piping and valves that were removed from service because they needed replacement or the d facility was being modified, that was considered contaminated equipment. 1C( Q. You mean piping and valves used for 13] the - 121 A. Agitators used to handle PCB in a 12| system pump and the like. Even the working clothes 14 of an individual. The overshoes they might wear, the Id rubber booties, the gloves; once they had PCBs on 10 them were referred to as contaminated. 17! Q. Was consideration given to PCB lfi( contamination of mineral oil supplies by you? 1$ MR. SMITH: Objection to the form. 2d Can we have a time? 2 1| MR. GRANOFF: 1970 to 1985. 2 2| A. Yes. That was considered. 2d Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) In what framework was 24j it considered? 25| A. Oh, it included taking care not to ship
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PCBs in a tank car which had not been properly cleaned and had mineral oil in it before that. Taking care in unloading that tank car when it arrived at his destination. Make certain that it did not end up in the wrong tank which might have -- may contain mineral oil, especially in those plants that made both mineral oil transformers and askarel transformers.
Taking care that when units were topped off at the using site, that the person who did the topping off understood what kind of liquid to add to that unit and it better be the proper type, whether it's a mineral unit or an askarel unit.
Even in the collection of waste, we considered the possibility of receiving either mineral oil or PCB contaminated with the other. That meant it had to be handled differently at the incinerator.
Q. I'm a little bit confused as to that last statement. In other words, you're talking about the collection of waste for purposes of incineration at the Monsanto facility?
A. That is right. Yes. Q. That is the Krummrich facility? A. That is correct. Uh-huh.
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Q. And did you anticipate that some of the 2 waste would include mineral oil which may be 3 contaminated with PCB? 4 MR. SMITH: Objection to the form 5 for lack of time reference. 6 MS. BERKOWITZ: Could you repeat 7 the question, please? 8 (The requested portion of the record was 9 read by the Reporter.) 10 A. We were aware of the possibility of this 1 1 happening. We were concerned that incineration of 12 waste oils at our incinerator would be an attractive 13 way to dispose of all kinds of liquids. Our unit was 14 designed with a given capacity. We didn't want to be 15 inundated with mineral oils coming from all these 16 transformers and somebody either accidentally or 17 deliberately tainting them with PCBs to make them 18 eligible for our incinerator. We were aware of that 19 kind of thing happening. 20 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Was the incinerator 21 unit designed to incinerate mineral oil which was 22 contaminated with PCBs rather than one hundred 23 percent PCB liquid? 24 A. If it can incinerate PCBs it can 25 incinerate mineral oils.
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1 Q. I think you testified to the effect that jr-- L 2 you were aware, or Monsanto was aware, of the
3 possibility that mineral oiT could become 4 contaminated with PCBs and that could eventually 5 reach your incinerator? 6 A. Yes.
Q. And how did you gain access to that a information? 9 A. Several ways. Some of it really by 10 talking to individuals. Randy Graham, our Monsanto 11 field representative, was a source of most of my 1 2 information regarding concerns for abusers of this 13 program as a way to dispose of mineral oils by 14 deliberately combining them and contaminating them. 15 That was one thought. 1 6 At these ANSI meetings, discussions were 17 held about the proper way to dispose of mineral oils 1 8 with a little bit of PCB that got in there by 19 accident. I remember that. And I agreed if it was 2 C truly an accident, we would help somebody, but we 2 1 didn't make this a regular practice of accepting 22 mineral oil with PCBs in it. It had to be a bonafide 23 accident, inadvertently somebody contaminated 24 something. 25 There was no way for us to really check
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the source and reason for the contamination. We had 2 to take a customer's word for it. 3 Q. So excuse me. The information that you 4 received generated from the ANSI meetings that 5 mineral oil could be mixed with PCBs -- or let me put 6 it the other way around. 7 PCBs could be mixed into mineral oil 8 accidentally. Was this from one of the subcommittees 9 where that information originated? 10 A. The transformer subcommittee addressed 11 that potential. See, they were discussing the 1 2 various kinds of wastes that they must dispose of and 13 the proper way to do so. And somebody came up with, 14 suppose I have a tankfull of oil that I accidentally 15 pumped a barrel of PCBs into it. What do I do with 16 it? Is it a PCB? 17 And my answer, at that time was, well, 1 8 if it's PCB and it's a one-time kind of thing, we'll 19 help you get rid of it. 20 Q. What was the answer to the question, was 2 1 it a PCB? In other words, if there was a mixture 22 albiet accidental - 23 A. -- Yes. 24 Q. -- between a mineral oil source and 25 PCBs, for purposes of the C-107 Committee, that
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$ liquid was considered by you to be a PCB? 2 A. It had to be handled like a PCB. c Q. I have to take a couple steps back, and 4 I'm sorry but it happens. To go back and forth on these things. On your April 1972 letter, the last e paragraph talks about -- and we've already talked i about it -- addresses that extreme care is taken in e the handling, use, storage and disposal of these c materials, that being PCBs. 1C I think you further have testified that 1 3 you were aware that one form of disposal of PCBs or 12 with electrical transformers was to scrap dealers,- is 1C that correct? 14 A. Yes. 1C Q. I don't want to misstate. Is that 1C correct ? 1 7 A. Yes. Uh-huh. 1 Q. What was the genesis or what was the IS' source of how you became aware that certain users of 2 C PCBs were scrapping electrical equipment with these 2 3 scrap or junk dealers? 22 A. It was discussed in my presence in such 2 c a way that I was led to believe that this is a very 24 common practice, particularly at that time -- well, 2b copper was in short supply and there was a lot of
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3j interest in recovering the copper wiring inside these units. And there was every indication, at least to my thinking, that this practice was quite common. The only advice I gave was, be careful where the oil goes . Q. I think you testified that this practice of utilizing scrap dealers was discussed in your presence. Do you mean at the ANSI Committee meetings? .
10 A. Yes. And even informally one-on-one. 1U Both ways. 12| Q. Do you recollect anybody in particular 13 who advised you? 14 A. Oh, gosh. Mr. Raab for one. He was a 13 principle spokesman. I'm trying to recall. There's 16 an individual in Westinghouse. I can't recall his 13 name at the moment. 1$ Q. I'll not try to guess with you. But do 13 you remember the plant that he was associated with 20 from Westinghouse? For instance, the Sharon plant? 2 3 I'll shut up for a second. I'm sorry. 23 A. Sharon comes to mind. But gosh. 23 Q. How about Larry Sheppard? 24 A. Yes. Thank you. 23 Q. You're welcome.
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A. Yeah. Larry. In his office, we talked 4 about things like that.
Q. Things like what? A. Disposing of scrap, disposing of the 4 liquid, what do we do with copper and so on. Q. Now, what time frame do you recollect 4 the discussions with Raab and Sheppard? $ A. Oh, gosh. From the period, let's say, $ middle seventies to 1975. 10 Q. Did you say middle of seventies or '70? 1\ , A. Seventies, I'm sorry. The middle of 12! 1970 . About June, July of 1970 on through the end of i :i 1975 . K, Q. And as I understand, one of your 15 responses to the information you were receiving from 10 Raab and/or Sheppard, you said, well, be careful 1 where the oil goes. 1 a A. (Indicating.) i<> Q. What did you mean by that? 20 A. Well, I intended with that statement to 2 make certain that whatever they did with the oil, 22 that it did not end up creating an environmental 25 problem. 2`, Q. Did you recommend -- Strike that. 2 5 Did you have your own scenerios in your
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mind as to how the oil would not end up as an
environmental problem?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you relate those to me?
A. The two -- one obvious one, of course,
is incineration under the right conditions. And the
other is, if it could not be incinerated for some
reason, that it be put in an approved landfill. And
by approved, this is a landfill that the authorities
have reviewed and proper permission given and the
potential for contaminating either the surface or the
underground waters is just remote.
1 Q. Did you, in your capacity as chairman of
1 C-107, at that time, did you counsel against this
1 scrapping of electrical transformers with scrap
1 dealers?
1 A. No, I did not.
1 Q. Did you, in your capacity as chairman of
1 C-107, in that time period of '70 to '75 -- Well, let
2 me strike that.
2 But I don't think you were chairman in
2 1975 .
2 A . Yes, I was.
2 Q You were? Okay. 2 back with it then .
I ' m sorry.
We'll go
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In your capacity as chairman of C-l07 from 1970 to 1975, did you counsel against allowing waste oil to be sent to scrap dealers?
A . Yes . Q. Why? A. Because, in my considered opinion, there were no scrap dealers qualified to properly incinerate scrap oils with PCBs. Q. And when you say there were -- there 1C were no scrap dealers who could properly incinerate 1 3 scrap oil with PCBs, do you include in that mineral 1 oil which was mixed with PCBs? 1C A. Yes. 14 MR. GRANOFF: I've got to make a 11 phone call to my office. Probably take fifteen or ie twenty minutes. I'm sorry but it's a client l' emergency matter. 1 (Deposition stood in temporary recess.) 15 (The requested portion of the record was 2 C read by the Reporter.) 2 3 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Okay. Mr. Papageorge, 2 under what circumstances did you learn that mineral 2 C oil supplies were contaminated with PCBs?. 24 A. I can't recall any specific incident. 21 MR. DAVIDSON: Are you asking that
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they learned that they were in all instances or might 2 be? 3 MR. GRANOFF: I don't know if we 4 can ever say that they're across the board a hundred 5 percent, that all mineral oil supplies were 6 contaminated with PCBs. But let me try to phrase 7 it . 8 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Well, under what 9 circumstances did you learn of the liklihood that 10 mineral oil supplies were contaminated or could be 1 1 contaminated with PCBs? And for example, was it as a 12 result of the subcommittee meetings or through 13 C-107? And it may not be, but I offer that as a 14 possibility. 15 A. The subcommittee discussions was one 16 source of my education regarding that subject. 17 However prior to that, I was made aware of the 18 potential for this to happen by individuals within 19 Monsanto such as as Mr. Benignus and Mr. Graham and 20 Mr. Bryant, people whose job it was to know the 21 industry and understand some of the problems the 22 industry may be having. 23 Also, in brochures that Monsanto had 24 regarding use of askarel in equipment, there was, as 25 I recall, some reference to the adverse effects to
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1 the units that could be contaminated with mineral 2 oils. That sensitized me to the potential. 3 MR. SMITH: I object to the portion 4 that's hearsay, if any. 5 MR. GRANOFF: Okay. That's noted 6 for the record, for whatever it's worth. 7 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF)I'm sorry. 8 A. And another more direct kind of 9 sensitization occurred when I visited many plants, 10 customers' plants, at which transformers were 11 manufactured. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. Where I brought them up to date on PCB 14 environmental matters, and they in turn spoke about 15 their operations and their perception of potential 16 problems. 17 Q. Let's take these then in the reverse 18 order. You visited certain customers' plants. And 19 when you say customers, who do you mean by customers? 20 A. Well, like the General Electric plants 21 up in Pittsfield, Massachusetts. A Westinghouse 22 plant at Sharon in south Boston. The A11is-Chalmers 23 plant in Milwaukee. The Moloney Electric plant here 24 in St. Louis. 25 Q. Did -- Sorry.
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1 A. That's not the whole list but that's a
2 sample.
3 Q. Representative sample?
4
A. Yes.
.
5 Q. Did you restrict your visits to
6 manufacturers of electrical equipment?
7 A. Yes. Well, that particular tour of
8 plant visits was restricted to manufacturers of
9 electrical equipment.
10 Q. Did you ever visit any equipment repair
11 center, whether it be a General Electric or
1 2 Westinghouse, repair center or repair center
13 sponsored or owned by anybody?
14 MR. SMITH: Owned by who? Anyone?
15 MR. GRANOFF: Anybody. Anyone.
16 A. I recall visiting a service company in
17 the Akron, Ohio area.
18 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) That's the Meyers,
19 S.D. Meyers Company?
20 A. The name doesn't ring a bell at the
2 1 moment. I think it was.
2 2 Q. Ohio Transformer?
23 A. Had the word transformer in it. They
24 were a service company. They did a little work on
25 the site. Most of the work was done in the field.
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1 The service vehicles going to the job sites. I did 2| not visit any other service center that I recall.
Q. Did anyone -- Strike that. Did you ever direct anybody within
Monsanto to visit an equipment repair center, other than you, yourself, other than this possible one in Akron, Ohio you didn't personally visit? 8| A. I did not direct anyone. But as part of their job responsibilities, Mr. Benignus and his 10 team. Ill Q. That team? 12j A. Consisted of Mr. Benignus and 10 Mr. Graham, I know had contacts with these service 14| companies and paid visits to them. The General 10 Electric shops, the Westinghouse shops. Doble 10 Engineering is another service company. 10 I relied on them to come back to me with 10 any adverse information that they might have picked 10 up . 20 Q. Do you recollect whether Benignus, 2i Bryant or Graham visited any utility equipment repair 22 centers? 23 A. I do not remember. No. I just cannot 24 remember. 29 Q. I think I asked you about Mr. Graham.
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1 His whereabouts, you think, are somewhere in the
2 northeast?
3 A. That's the last I heard, yes.
4 Q. Mr. Benignus, is he still withMonsanto?
5 A. No. Retired.
6 Q. In this area?
7 A. Yes.
e Q. St. Louis area?
9
A. General. He's over inBelleville,
I
1C believe.
11 Q. Belleville? And Mr. Bryant, to the best
12 of your knowledge?
13 A. I think Mr. Bryant, the last I heard, he
14 was in the northeast somewhere also.
I 5 Q. Okay. Did Benignus, Byrant or Graham
i e actually give you written reports as to their
II findings in the field as to their visits or was
1 everything a verbal report?
13 A. I had both written and oral reports. I
2 C recall some were called trip reports. It's a form
2 1 that's filled out by the representative. I don't
22 recall any specific companies or dates at the
23 moment. There were reports on occasion.
24 Q. What did you do with those reports?
23 A. Well, it depended.
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Q. The written reports? A. It depended, of course, on the 3 contents. Sometimes the report would not expose any l particular problems, so I was rather pleased with 3 it. Other times, it was some would even underline 4 attention Papageorge, then write out some piece of information that I would either get on the telephone 4 or call them back and get more details or call the 4 representative of the plant that was visited or the site that was visited. U Q. Under those circumstances, when you received a negative report from the field, meaning 13 that the potential for PCBs contamination of mineral 1 4, oil was discovered by Benignus or his people, did you 15 pass that information along to the transformer or 19 capacitor subcommittee? 1 A. If it was timely. If the committee was 13 in place, that would be a good place to bring it up. 13 And in the few cases that -- I don't remember any 2 (p specifics, but the normal way to handle that is to 2 get to the individual representative of that company 22 and make sure that he heard how I felt in addition to 23 how Mr. Benignus or how Mr. Bryant felt. 24, Q. These trip reports or the written 2$ reports that were transmitted to you by Benignus,
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1 Bryant, Graham, do you know who has those documents 2 now? 3 A . I don 11 know. 4 Q. Well, if I wanted to see them, do you 5 know what procedures I would use? e A. I would go to the Monsanto legal 7 department. They're the custodians. MR. DAVIDSON: Off the record. c (Discussion was held off the record.) 1C Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) In connection with the 1 1 information you gleaned from the subcommittee 1 2 discussions, what do you recollect was translated or 1 transmitted to you from members of the subcommittee 14 as to the potential for contaminating mineral oil 1 supplies with PCBs? ie MR. SMITH: Objection. Calls for 17 hearsay. Time frame would be a good way to at least 1 improve on it. IS Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Well, do you 2 C understand my question? 2 3 MR. SMITH: You can answer. 2 2 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) You understand my 22 question, don't you, sir? 2 4 A. I think I understand it. 2 Q. Okay. We'll proceed then.
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A. No attempt was made to quantify the potential for this happening. Just the fact that it can happen was discussed, and if it did happen, what is the proper remedial action. That kind of discussion did take place.
Q. And you'd agree with me that not only did it take place, but it was enough of a consensus on the issue; in other words, the fact of PCB contamination of mineral oils that was included 10 within the final C-107 report? 1 ] MR. SMITH: Objection to form. i; A. Yes. 10 MR. SMITH: Okay. 14 Q. (BY MR. GRAN0FF) Pardon me, sir? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What is your recollection as to how to 17 remediate -- I think that was term you used, to 1 remediate -- the problem, if indeed it did happen, 10 the problem of mixing PCB with mineral oil? 2 0 A. In the final analysis, that contaminated 2 ] oil was to be treated as though it was an askarel. 2 2 That's a very conservative but practical and most 20 responsible way to treat it rather than -- because we 24 did get in discussions how much PCB makes it a PCB. 20 And we start talking about percentages
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1 of mixture and parts per million and parts per 2 billion. There was no standard available to anyone 3 to make that kind of definition. So just presence of 4 PCBs in this oil makes it PCB, treat it as though 5 it's a hundred percent PCB. 6 Q. And as best you can recollect, what is 7 the earliest time frame that the fact of PCBs, the 8 potential for PCBs, being mixed with mineral oil 9 occurred? When was the earliest time frame that you 10 learned of that potential? 1 1 A. That I learned of it? 12 Q. Yes, sir. 13 A. Oh, I would say, early 1970. 14 Q. 1970? Seven zero? 15 A. Yes. 1 6 Q. And consistent with your knowledge, is 17 that the time frame when it was discussed within any 18 of these C-107 subcommittees? 19 MR. SMITH: Object to the form. 20 Lack of foundation. 2 1 A. C-107 subcommittees were not in 22 existence until '72. 23 Q. Oh, all right. 24 A. So as committees, they addressed it at 25 that time almost early on in their agenda.
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Q. They addressed what? 2 A. The potential for mineral oil containing 3 PCBs and how to treat it. 4 Q. Okay. Sorry. I'm taking things out of 5 order here. 6 MR. GRANOFF: But I need for you to 7 mark this next. 8 (Said instrument was marked as Exhibit 9 No. 377, 2-21-90, CKP.) 10 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Okay. I'll have you 1 1 identify Exhibit 377, which is a three-page composite 12 exhibit, PSA Bates stamped 001391, and if you could 1 3 identify this composite exhibit, please, sir. 14 A. The first page is a copy of the address 15 label. The addressee is Florida Power & Light. And
written -- That's typed. Then written is care of M.0. Talbert.
Q. Could you spell it, as best you can anyways ?
A. T-a-1-b-e-r-t, it looks like. 611 West 6th Street, 33101. Miami, Florida 33101. Transform Pyranol A13B3B. Attached to that are, looks like copies of letters dated, both dated February 28, 1972, Monsanto letterhead, signed by T.L. Gossage, who at that time, was the marketing director for
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1 dielectric fluids. 2 One letter is addressed to, attention to 3 purchasing agent. The second letter is attention to 4 plant engineer. 5 Q. Okay. If I may, please. Thank you. 6 Directing your attention to the face 7 sheet of Exhibit 377, is any of that in your 8 handwriting? 9 A . No . 10 Q. Do you know whose handwriting it is? 11 A. I do no t. 12 Q. Okay. Do you know a gentlemen named -- 13 Strike that. 14 Do you know a person at Florida Power & 15 Light identified as M.O. Talbert? 16 A. I don't recall. 17 Q. Do you know a gentleman at Florida Power 1 8 & Light known as Maurice Talbert? Does that name 19 mean anything to you? 20 A. I just don't remember that name. 2 1 Q. Okay. All right. Do you have any 22 recollection of what is meant on the face sheet of 23 Exhibit 377, the words Transformer Pyranol and then 24 A1 3 B 3 B ? 25 A. That describes one of the askarel fluids
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1 blended by Monsanto according to General Electric
2 specifications, and it's intended for use in
3 transformers. And that particular formulation
4 carries this designation A13B3B.
Q. Okay. Do you have a sense for why that
6 information that reflects a G.E. blend for askarel is
7 contained within the label mailing label to Florida
e Power & Light?
s A. I don't know.
I'm surprised to see it.
1C It's irrelevant to the label but --
11 Q. Okay.
1 2 MS. RUMAGE: Excuse me. Just for
1 clarification, that was made for spec for General
14 Electric?
1 THE WITNESS: General Electric
ie provides Monsanto with specifications for how to make
11 this material and what to check for to see that it's
1 e properly put together.
is MS. RUMAGE: Okay.
2 C Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Is it a liklihood or
2 2 does a liklihood exist that the G.E. Pyranol blend
2 2 A13B3B, had that blend been directly sold to Florida
22 Power & Light in the past?
24 A. That's why it got on this list.
2 Q. You agree that liklihood exists?
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1 A. Yes. It's almost -- Yes. I would say 2 it would not have appeared on that list if that 3 hadn't happened. 4 Q. Could you explain the gist of the two 5 letters dated February 28, 1972 and identify the 6 different persons who were intended to receive that 7 letter from Monsanto? 8 MR. SMITH: Objection for lack of 9 foundation. Was he involved? 1C A. Well, the intent with this particular 1 1 mailing was to make certain that the appropriate 1 2 people at the customer's site got the letter. We 1 2 found from some unfortunate experiences that many 14 times a letter sent to a purchasing agent ends up in 1 the product file and is not shared in the plant with ie the people who need the information. 17 So in order to make certain, this 1 8 particular mailing, we addressed one also to the 15 plant engineer informing at the bottom of the letter 2 C that the purchasing agent also got a copy. 2 1 The intent of this letter is to 22 inform -- the major intent of this letter is to 22 inform the recipient of the letter that Monsanto 24 would discontinue direct sales of these fluids to 25 repair shops and for transformer top-up, and that if
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3 this customer needed dielectric fluids in the future,
2 we were suggesting he contact the manufacturer of the
Ji transformer for a supply of the fluid.
Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Okay. You knew
3 Mr. Gossage back in 1972, the marketing director,
4 special products group?
A. Yes.
$ Q. Do you recall any particular input on
$ the letter of February 28, 1972 authored by
Mr. Gossage ?
It A, I again was asked to look at a rough
1% draft. I was aware it was going out. I don't
1$ believe I changed anything.
l4 Q. It was authoried by Mr. Gossage then
with your approval?
1 $ A. Yes.
It (Said instrument was marked as Exhibit
1$ No. 378, 2-21-90, CKP.)
1$
Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF)
All right.
I'm going
2(p have you identify, please, Exhibit 378, which is the
21 ANSI C-107 American National Standard Guidelines for
2 2 Handling and Disposal of Capacitor- and
2$ Transformer-Grade askarels containing Polychlorinated
24 Biphenyls. This appears to be a copy of the
2$ standards issued under the ANSI sponsorship.
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1 A. On how to handle and dispose of
2 askare1s.
5 Q. Is this the version that was accepted by
4 ANSI in January 1974?
F
So
A. It appears to be, yes.
6 Q. Do the -- Strike that.
1 Does the forward, which I think if you
6 turn to the third page of that exhibit and as you go
c down towards the bottom of the page which lists the
1C organizations represented --
1 1 A. -- I see it.
12 Q. Okay. Is the utility industry
1C represented in this or on this C-107 report?
14 A. It's represented by the organization
1$ listed at the bottom of the page, Electric Light & 1 e Power Group.
ii Q. Now, we already mentioned Mr. Lengefeld
16 and Mr. Onishi. Are you familiar with a gentleman
is named J.J. Cawley?
2 C A. I don't remember the man but I do
2 3 remember the name.
22 Q. Do you know specifically, did
26 Mr. Lengefeld work for the Electric Light & Power
24 Group? Was he employed by that consortium?
26 A. No. No. Mr. Lengefeld is an employee
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4 of the Union Electric Company which is the St. Louis - by coincidence, the St. Louis utility. But his
} company is a member of this group and he was Union 4 Electric's representative and he was assigned to join 4 in this standard setting effort.
Q. Union Electric, is that the primary electrical utility for St. Louis County? Is that ^ St. Louis County?
A. It's generally this St. Louis area here west of the Mississippi. .1 i Q. And I'm sorry if have asked you. Is 1 % Mr. Lengefeld still alive, to your knowledge? 14 A. I don't know. 14 Q. And do you know where Mr. Onishi was 10 employed during this time frame? 18 A. I don't remember. 17 Q. And as to Mr. Cawley, do you know where 1$ he was employed during the time frame of 1974? 10 A. It seems to me -- and this was twenty 20 years ago -- it seems to me that one of them was with 21 Commonwealth Edison. That's just a vague 20 recollection I have. 20 Q. Either Mr. Cawley or Onishi? 24 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. If I can direct you to Page 15 of
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1 the report, bottom right-hand corner. Do you have
2 it, Mr. Papageorge?
3 A . Yes, Ido.
4
. Q.
Okay. Thank you.
I'd like to go
5 through some of the terminology that was used within
6 the report as it concerns transformers, as you
7 understand it. That guideline concerns both
8 capacitors and transformers, correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I'd like to talk about the portion that
1 1 speaks to transformers and specifically disposal. To
1 2 begin with, disposal procedures and services. That
13 would be Section 4.1.6.1.
14 A. I see it.
15 Q. In the following materials.
16 A . I see.
17 Q. Okay. Could you describe for me, as the
18 former chairman of C-107, what was meant by the
19 language used in 4.1.6.1, sources of materials
20 requiring special handling and disposal procedures?
21 In other words, I don't need you to read verbatim for
2 2 the record, but if you could just review it and tell
23 me what was intended with that section.
24 A. Well, the intent was to try to enumerate
25 sources of PCB fluids and solids that were unuseable
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1 and considered waste. And the listing there was only
2 a partial list really. You'll notice then it ends
3 with pointing out such things in the end with sources
4 being the transport containers. That's tank cars and
5 drums and trucks. The procedures used in
6 manufacturing transformers could result in off-grade
7 unusable material and waste, failures while testing
8 the finished product, in-service transformer leaks
9 and failures. These are in the -- at the sites of
10 the owner of the transformer in-services. It lists
11 also askarel-filled transformers scrapped for any
12 reason as a potential source of PCB waste.
13 Q. Okay. Now, in connection with the first
14 liquids containing PCBs and solids containing or
15 contaminated with PCBs may be obtained from any of
16 the following sources, the terminology, liquids
17 containing PCBs or contaminated with PCBs, did that
18 intend to encompass mineral oil which was
19 contaminated with some level or concentration of
20 PCB?
21 MR. SMITH: Objection to the form
22 for characterization of what the document says.
23 A. Yes. That was an example of the kinds
24 of liquids they had in mind.
.
25 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) And as I understand,
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while you were concerned about PCBs that were contaminating mineral oil, the C-107 report did not designate a specific percentage or concentration of PCB in the mineral oil. For instance, fifty parts per million or a hundred parts per million?
A. An attempt was made to arrive at some number. There was no basis, at that time, for such a 8 number. And it was left open then in concensus if -- 9 that -- if PCBs are detectable by analysis in this lOj fluid, as I indicated earlier, it would be treated as 1 1 a PCB waste. 12 Q. Okay. Now, you just said that whether 1 3 or if PCBs were detectable in the fluids such as 14 mineral oil, it would be treated as a PCB waste? 15 A. That's the intent. 16 Q. At that period of time -- we have to 1 7 focus on 1974 because that's when the report was 18 actually adopted -- what was the state-of-art to 19 detect PCBs in mineral oil supplies, if you know? 20 A. I assume that by state-of-art you're 2 1 referring to what levels could be detected or -22 Q. Yes. What levels and by what was the 23 mechanism to detect it. In other words, electronic 24 gas capture or whatever - 25 A. -- There was -
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1 Q. -- mechanism?
2 A. -- methodology in place which used
3 gas -- GLC, gas liquid chromatography, confirmed by
4 mass spectrum chromatography, which is the first
5 industry collecting the first data and sees a -
6 truly a PCB and not a artifact.
7 The levels of detection varied with the
8 methods used. One of the previous tests referred to
S was USDA methods. Depending on which methods you
10 used, you can, with all probability, detect down to
1 3 that level.
1 2 As I remember, Monsanto had two parts
13 per billion or -- I don't remember the numbers now.
14 But there was a level which could be detected using
iq that method. 16
MR. SMITH: Are you talking about
17 the PCBs in oil now or PCBs in water?
18 A. This was in water. But you could still
10 do it in oil.
2 C Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) All right. Excuse
2 3 me. I'd like to refer you back to composite Exhibit
22 376 -- Excuse me -- 375 and reference you back to a
22 letter of January 1972, that you authored, and the
24 subject matter of that letter to Mr. Raab and
2 Mr. Pozefsky, the chairman of the respective
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1 subcommittees of C-107, PCB Analytical Sensitivity, 2 correct? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. Now, is it your understanding that as of 5 1972 and early 1972, that the mechanism existed which 6 allowed a laboratory analysis of PCBs in mineral oil 7 for a detectable level by Monsanto at a level of two 8 parts per billion? 9 A. Correct . 10 Q. By FDA standards and analysis, it was 1 1 0.5 parts per million? 1 2 A. Correct. 13 Q. And by USDA laboratory or analysis, it 14 was one part per million? 15 A. Correct . 16 Q. According to your testimony then, as of 17 the time the C-107 report was adopted in 1974, using 18 let's say the FDA basis of 0.5 parts per million, if 19 PCBs in -- Strike that -- if a sample of mineral oil 20 was taken and analyzed by the FDA method and 2 1 analysis, and there was a detection of 0.5 parts per 22 million PCB within that mineral oil sample, then 22 according to the C-107 report, that mineral oil 24 sample would be considered a PCB? 25 A. Yes.
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4 MR. SMITH: 2 of the hypothetical.
Objection to the form
C Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Your answer, please,
A sir?
l A. Yes.
Q. Now as to analytical sensitivity, did
7 you become aware at some time, as of January 1972, as
6 early as January 1972, whether there were labs in the
S United States that could test at the level of
1C' detection, for instance, 0.5 parts per million other
1 ] than some FDA lab or wherever that may be located?
15 MR. SMITH: Object to the form of
1C! the question. Unclear what you are talking about,
1A testing sample.
1J> Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Okay. Do you
10 understand my question, sir?
17 A. I think your question addresses the
li ability to analyze for and detect PCBs in oils and
1 Si water and other samples.
20 Q. Right. But I am now specifying my
2 ' questions as to mineral oil PCB in mineral oil..
2 2 A. There were a limited number of
20 laboratories in the United States with the capability
2<, of reliably analyzing PCBs in mineral oil.
2 0 Q. Do you know the names or locations of
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l| those labs? A. Well, I'm aware of the facilities that
General Electric had and Westinghouse. 4| Q. General Electric in Pittsfield?
A. Pittsfield, yes. And Westinghouse at --
Q. Probably Sharon. A. Sharon, yeah. But for sure in Pittsfield, their research lab there. 1C Q. All right.
1 a A. There were -- I think there were about
1 4 -- I can't recall their names -- two or three 1 commercial laboratories, as I remember, at this point 14 in time. There was a laboratory in Knoxville, 1 Tennessee, Stewart Laboratories. And there was one 1 e in Memphis, Woodson-Tenant. li MR. PANN: What was that? 1 THE WITNESS: Woodson-Tenant. 15 MR. PANN: Where was that located? 2 ( THE WITNESS: Memphis, Tennessee. 2 a A. Seems to me there was a third one, but I 22 can't recall its name. 2 G Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Are you familiar with 2< a laboratory in 'Fransvi1le', Wisconsin owned by 21 McGraw-Edison or Cooper's Industries?
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A. No. But when you mention Wisconsin, I i remember the the laboratory in Madison, Wisconsin, 3 Alumni Research Institution, the Wharf Institute.
MR. CLAYMAN: Could you read back 4 the name of that, again?
(The requested portion of the record was y read by the Reporter.) 3 MR. SMITH: Is that one that could 3 detect PCBs in oil in half a part a million?
THE WITNESS: I believe so, yeah, lit Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Are you aware as to - 1 % Strike that. 13 Do you recollect as to whether the Wharf 14 Institute, the Woodson-Tenant labs, I think which you 1$ identified as a Stewart labs, the G.E., and 1$ Westinghouse labs, had the capability of detection of It PCBs in mineral oil to 0.5 parts per million as early 1$ as 1972 when you addressed this letter to Mr. Raab 1$ and Mr. Pozefsky? 20 A. I was aware of those laboratories. This 21 does not mean that there were not others, because 20 Monsanto -- even my office sent out many, many copies 20 of the analytical methodology that Monsanto had 24 developed by 1974. 2$ Those methodologies were adopted by the
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l| ASTM, the American Society of Testing Materials, as
standard analytical methods. So they were easily
available. I cannot sit here and say there were not
other laboratories out there doing good work. I
don't know that.
3 Q. Excuse me. I don't know if you said yes
H or no, how you answered that.
0 Specifically as to the five labs that we
mentioned, the Woodson-Tenant, Stewart, the Wharf
10 lab, G.E. and Westinghouse -
111 A. -- Uh-huh.
12| Q. -- was the detection level available as
10 early as January 1972 down to 0.5 parts per
14| mil lion?
10 A. Yes.
10 MR. SMITH: Of PCBs in oil?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 Q. (BY MR. GRANOPP) Of PCBs in oil?
10 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. All right.
2 31
Moving down again and back to disposal
20 procedures and services, there is a section 4.1.6.2.1
20 Liquids. And without reading it verbatim, would you
24 identify what this section was intended to reflect?
20 A. It attempts to define, for purposes of
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this document, what is meant by a liquid containing PCBs and it lists three catagories. One, PCBs that are contaminated with mineral oil. Number two, mineral oil contaminated with PCBs. And finally, the askarels themselves that are contaminated because of dirt and undesirable ingredient other than mineral oil resulting from spills or process exposure and the 3 1ike. 3 Q. Do you recollect why the committee made 10 the effort to specify these three potential sources 131 of liquids that could contain PCBs requiring 10 disposal? 10 A. Well, it was the committee's intent to 14 help the reader of this document understand what kind 10 of liquids the committee was referring to. Rather 10 than just say all PCBs are to be controlled properly, 10 they went that added step and tried to distinguish 10 between a transformer askarel that no longer is 10 usable because it doesn't have the right properties 20 any longer, it's not functioning properly, as 2 3| distinguished from the other catagories of a PCB 20 contaminated with mineral oil or mineral oil 20 contaminated with PCB, vice versa. 24 They wanted to highlight the potential 20 for that relationship between mineral oil and PCBs
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1 and potential for cross-contamination. 2 Q. What do you mean by cross-contamination? 3 A. That's a poor word. It's the presence 4 of one or the other ingredient in the original. The 5 mineral oil in with the PCBs or PCBs in mineral oil. 6 The unintentional presence. 7 Q. Can you totally discount that mineral 8 oils and PCBs were intentionally mixed at times? 9 MR. SMITH: Object to the form of 10 the question as calling for speculation. 1 1 A. Can I totally discount? No. I cannot 1 2 totally discount it. 1 3 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) For instance, have you 14 heard of a process called retrofi11ing? 15 A. Oh, yes. 1 6 Q. And what is your understanding of the 17 retrofill process? 1 8 A. It's my understanding the expression 19 retrofill refers to that procedure where the original 20 fluid is totally drained from the unit and a 2 1 different fluid is introduced into the unit in the 22 hopes of changing some character of that unit, either 23 making it more fire resistent or to take a higher 24 load of voltage and the like.
Q. For example, one form of restrofill
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1 could be removing the askarel from an
2 askarel-designed unit and intentionally filling that
3 unit with mineral oil?
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. Sorry. I have to skip back for a
6 minute.
7 But going back to the language of
8 4.1.6.2.1 for a moment, there's a phrase that
9 contamination could occur in the transformer
10 manufacturing processes. What was intended by use of
11 that phraseology?
'
.
1 2 A. Well, that attempted to cover the
13 inadvertent introduction of mineral oil or the
14 blending of acceptable PCB type dielectric fluids
15 with a batch of material that was dirty for some
16 reason. The bottom of a tank had sludge or water in
17 it or iron filings or something undesirable in the
1 8 blending.
19 In order to get enough material to fill
20 a unit, they inadvertently, in the process, end up
2 1 with a pure liquid, unusable, unreclaimable.
Q. Did you, here in your discussions with
members of. the transformer subcommittee -- that's
Raab's group, as I recollect -- that the
manufacturers, in the process of filling the
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1 transformer at a manufacturing level, had experienced
2 situations where both mineral oil and askarel had
3 actually been pumped through the same valve, a common
4 valve?
5 A. I've heard that took place and I also
6 heard how systems were designed to avoid that by
7 using different pipe connections, different
8 couplings, so that the operator could not
9 inadvertently make the wrong connection. The
10 fittings just won't fit.
11 .
Q. Yes.
1 2 A. Things like that were discussed as being
13 ways to avoid making mistakes at the plant site.
14 Q. The systems designed to avoid the
1 5 mistake of mixing the two fluids, was that done to
16 remediate what you understood to be incidents or a
17 problem where mineral oil and askarel were running
18 through a common valve or coupling system?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you hear from Mr. Raab that that
2 1 occurrence took place, for instance, at a G.E.
22 facility?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you recall which facility?
25 A. Pittsfield, Massachusetts.
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Q. Did he mention the Rome, Georgia facility as another source of that occurrence?
A. I'm under the impression that the experiences in Pittsfield were translated to the Rome. In other words, they didn't make the same mistake twice.
MR. SMITH: I'm sorry. Could you say that again? They what?
THE WITNESS: The experiences this General Electric had at Rome -- at Pittsfield in the early days when they did make some wrong connections and got the wrong material in the wrong tank, where they learned to have different type systems and isolate the systems to avoid mistakes, when they opened the Rome, Georgia facility, which was the newer of the two, they designed that system to avoid this happening there. So --
Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Okay. Did you -- Do you know that the same occurrence that had happened at Pittsfield -- in other words, the mixture of mineral oil and askarel -- had also been sustained at G.E. -- excuse me -- the Westinghouse, Sharon plant?
A. Well, I'm aware of Westinghouse having some experience. I don't recall whether it was specific to Sharon or some other site.
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1 Q. Possibly the south Boston site?
2 A. It's possible but I don't associate the
3 incident with any particular location. It's just
4 experience that Westinghouse had undergone and had
5 shared with others.
6 Q. Was this information shared at the
7 subcommittee meetings?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Of C-10 7 ?
10 A. Yes.
1 1 Q. Okay. Meaning both the Westinghouse and
1 2 G.E. information?
1 3 A. Yes. There were others. There were
14 others in the group that had similar experience.
1 5 Q. Do you recall the names of others?
1 e A. I think Mr. Reinhardt from --
17 Q. Central Moloney?
1
A. Central Moloney.
And Ican't recall the
19 name anymore. It was not an experience that only
2 C those three had. I got the impression that they had
2 1 all undergone that experience at some time or other.
2 2 It was not new.
2 3 Q. Okay. If I can direct you now to the
24 section on Page 15 of 4.1.6.5.1 that's under Liquid
29 and Solid Waste Disposal Service Organizations.
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A . I see it.
Q. Okay. The last couple words has to do
d with hardware, I assume from a transformer which had
4 been previously drained and washed. 4 directing you to that area.
And I'm just
Can you tell me what was the intent of
that particular paragraph which begins with: Dispose
d of askarels and askare1-soaked materials through the
9 words, previously drained and washed?
A. That was intended to cover -- The word
11 hardware might be, in hindsight, be a poor choice.
12 It was intended to cover the solid
13 component of the electrical equipment, whether it be
14 the transformer body itself or the internals. There
1$ are some supports, for example that hold up the
1$ copper coils internally. The intent here was to take
It all these pieces of the equipment and make sure that
1$ they're properly drained of the free fluid and rinsed
10 properly in a good solvent like kerosene or diesel
20 fuel, something that will cut the oil and cleanse off
21 the surface as best you can to the point where at
20 least the oil is no longer visible. It may still be
2$ to the analytical chemist but not visable to the
24 naked eye. Then the intent was, put this item in a
2$ controlled landfill if you're going to dispose of it.
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3 Q. The language used of: Disposal of
2 askarels and askarel-soaked materials should be
accomplished, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, did
4 you, by the use of the terms askarels and Ve. askeral-soaked materials, did you mean to exclude
e fluids or materials that were in mineral oil but had
i been mixed with PCBs?
A. No, no. As we said earlier, once PCBs c were present at a detectable level, you'd include
1C them the way you treat askarels. You treat them the
1 3 same way.
1 2 Q. Okay.
12 A. Until the government came along and told
14 us a certain level was permissible or not
1 permissible.
1 MR. GRANOFF: Can we take five
11 anyway? 1
(Deposition stood in temporary recess.)
IS (The requested portion of the record was
2 C read by the Reporter.)
2 3 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Let me just to go back
2 2 to another area, Mr. Papageorge.
2 2 Did Monsanto provide testing facilities
24 to entities who wanted to submit mineral oil samples
2b for PCB detection level?
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MR. SMITH: As of what time? MR. GRANOFF: Well, 1970 to 1975. MS. RUMAGE: I'm sorry. And by entity, you mean any business entity? MR. GRANOFF: Yes. A. I'm not aware of any mineral oil sample being sent to Monsanto laboratory for analysis. Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Did Monsanto have the capability though to test mineral oil samples for PCB levels? A. Yes. Q. So you were -- you are not aware of any utility companies that submitted mineral oil samples for detection of PCB levels? A. That is correct. Q. If I could refer you now to Section 4.2, Specific Guidelines and then Plant Housekeeping. Do you have that, sir? It's Page 15. A. I have it. I do. Q. All right. Did the committee intend, by the use of the term plant housekeeping -- Strike that . What did the committee intend by the use of the term, plant housekeeping? A. The intent here was to minimize the
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presence of askarel in areas for Which it was not intended. For example, the floor, stairways, sewers, and the like.
Q. When you use the term askarel in your response, subsumed or included with that, means any mineral oil that was contaminated with the PCB?
MR. SMITH: Object. Leading. A. Yes. Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) By the specific term, plant, was that intended to only include manufacturing facilities? A. Which? Generically the expression, plant housekeeping, the two words are used together. Q. Okay. A. And it refers to an area in which an activity takes place in the attempt to keep it clean within certain limits and for certain objectives, certain purposes, such as PCB shouldn't be on floor because of the environmentally potential problems that it could create.
And the term, plant housekeeping, also applies to other areas, slippery areas where people can fall and the like.
Q. Was the term, plant housekeeping, though intended to include facilities such as an equipment
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repair center? A. Yes. Q. I don't mean to be redundant with any of
my questions. If you could turn to 4.2.1.2, Special Containers for Scrap Materials - 0 A. -- I don't have a Page 16 here. Goes 1 from 15 to 18.
Q. Okay. I'll let you use mine. MS. BERKOWITZ: Which one are we
10 going to use? Ill MR. GRANOFF: We're going to stick 10 with his exhibit and I think what we'll have to do is 1$ to make some photocopies of the missing page and 14 include it in this, as long as we have Mr. Papageorge 10 identify the missing pages. 10 So would you look at Pages 16 and 17 and 1% see if you can identify those two pages? 1$ A. These appear to be accurate copies of 16 10 and 17. 20 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) So they appear to be 2 1) the copies of two pages that are missing -- 2 2 A. -- Missing. 20 Q. -- from Exhibit 378; is that correct? 24 A. That is correct. 20 Q. Okay.
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1 MR. CLAYMAN: Excuse me. Can we go 2 off the record for a minute, please. 3 (Discussion was held off the record.) 4 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Why don't you compare 5 this copy to what I have here, so if we've got all 6 the pages -- and I don't mean to confuse things, 7 be 1ieve me. 8 A. This is the copy with the missing pages 9 here . 10 Q. Right. Maybe we can just replace the 1 1 exhibit. 12 MR. GRANOFF: There are copy 1 3 services here in the hotel? 14 MR. CLAYMAN: Yes. Down on the 15 fourth floor. 16 (Discussion was held off the record.) 17 A. These two sets are identical except for 18 the last page, which appears to be American National 19 Standard statement which is unrelated to the rest of 20 text . 21 MR. GRANOFF: All right. With 2 2 everybody's permission, I would withdraw what is 23 previously marked as 378, which appears to be missing 24 from the substance of the C-107 report, Pages 16 and 25 17, and remark the copy that Gerard Davidson has with
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1 him, which includes Pages 16 and 17. 2 Is that a problem for anybody? In other 3 words, just mark this as 378, and go on like we've 4 been going on the whole time. 5 MR. SMITH: It sounds fine, but is 6 there something else attached to the back of this 7 one ? 8 MR. GRANOPF: Yes. He indicated 9 that there is a statement from American National - 10 Well, American National Standards, which is not 1 1 related to -- 12 THE WITNESS: Has nothing to do 13 with the purpose of the document which has to do with 14 PCB. That is a statement describing the American 1 5 National Standards Institute. 1 6 MR. GRANOFF: It is not attached, 1 7 as a matter of course, to the C-107 report, in other 18 words ? 19 THE WITNESS: It was part of the 20 booklet, the whole package. 2 1 MR. GRANOFF: Okay. It's just
boiler plate or something makes a reference to this, say, or things like that?
THE WITNESS: It's not related to the subject of the text.
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1 MR. GRANOFF: Can we mark this as 2 378, remark this new copy as 378? 3 ~ MR. SMITH: Fine. 4 (Said instrument was remarked as Exhibit 5 No. 378, 2-21-90, CKP.) 6 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) All right. The last 7 question was directing you to Page 16, sir. 8 A. I have it. 9 Q. All right.. 4.2.1.2, Special Containers 10 for Scrap Materials. And the Section 4.2.1.2.1. 11 A. Wait. I haven't found those yet. 1 2 Q. It's right -- 13 A. -- Would you repeat that number? Oh, I 14 see it. 15 Q. Okay. Special container. All right. 1 6 What was the intent of that particular 17 paragraph? 18 A. Let me make certain we're talking about 1 9 the same paragraph. You're talking about 4.2.1.2.1? 20 Q. Yes, sir. 2 1 A. It refers to the labeled drums? 22 Q. Yes, sir. 23 A. Containing spilled or waste askarel? 24 Q . Yes, sir. 25 A. The purpose here was to identify the
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1 contents of the drums containing liquid that resulted 2 from spills from sumps and failed units and drip pans 3 and sample jars, any source. And again, the 4 expression askarel includes any liquid with PCBs in 5 it, including kerosene and diesel fuel and whatever 6 they use to rinse things with. It was all referred 7 to as scrap askarel. 8 Q. Directing you to 4.2.1.4, Teardown of 9 Units for Scrap -- excuse me -- Teardown Units of 10 Repair or Scrap. 1 1 A. I see it. 1 2 Q. Okay. Thank you. 1 3 What was the intended purpose of that 14 sect ion, sir? IE A. The purpose here was to offer some i e guidelines for those involved with transformers that 1 7 no longer provide any service. They're ready to be 1 discarded. And it gives them some idea on how to 19 approach it, such as drain the unit, remove the coil, 2 C be sure there's absorbent material on the floor, 2 1 place all materials and appropriate containers for 2 2 later disposal on the floor to catch all the leaks. 23 Q. Did this section intend to include 24 equipment repair centers that were working on the 2 E teardown of units?
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1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And again, for the sake of being 3 redundant, when the term askarel or scrap askarel is 4 used in this section, did it intend to include any 5 mineral oil with detection of PCBs? 6 MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Okay. If you can turn 9 now to Page 17. 10 A. All right. 1 1 Q. Transformer Disposal, 4.2.3.6. 1 2 A. I see it. 1 3 Q. What was meant by the term, 14 Transposer -- transformer disposal? 15 A. This is the disposal of transformers 1 6 which no longer were functional. 1 7 Q. I'm sorry. Do you recollect the 1 8 individuals or the groups within the transformer 19 subcommittee who raised the issues as to transformer 20 disposal so that it found its way into the report 21 through consensus? 22 A. There was no single person or small 23 group of persons. I think it was on the mind of all 24 members of the transformer working group. 25 Q. Including Mr. Raab from General
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1 Electric? 2 A. Mr. Raab is a committee chairman. And
all the other members. This was one item on their 4 list of things to address early on. l Q. And by this transformer disposal, is it
e meant to address the units that are no longer
' functional? i A. Yes. o Q. One last time. I must -- I feel 10 compelled to ask the question. 11 By the use of the terms, askarel or 15 askeral-fi1led, in 4.2.3.6, were you intending to 1 Jl include mineral oil with detectable levels of PCB? 10 MR. SMITH: Same objection. lJi A. Yes. 1 (1 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) As to Subsection 2, 1 7 which begins with: Disposition of askarel ltl transformers, and then reads through as described in 1<J 4.1.6, the last paragraph. You have that, sir? 20 A. Yes. I have that. 2: Q. What was the purpose of avoiding the 2 t\ transport of askarel transformers unless they were 2 0 adequately soaked and washed with a solvent? 20 A. I'm confused by your use of the word 2 0 transporting.
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Q. Okay. Sure. What was the purpose in avoiding the disposal of nonfunctional transformers to junk or scrap dealers and the soaking -- the draining and soaking of the unit?
A. The purpose there was to avoid a situation where a scrap dealer had not been appropriately informed as to type of oil involved with the units and to make certain that no liquids are mishandled. It was suggested -1C Q. Mishandled by whom? 1 3 A. By people such as junk and scrap dealers 1 2 who may not be appropriately schooled in 1 c understanding what kind of oil was being sent to 14 them. To avoid that possibility, it was suggested 1 that the units, before they're transferred to a scrap 1 dealer, be properly drained and degreased with a 11 suitable solvent so the problem of disposal of the 1 liquid remains in the hands of the owner of that 15 transformer rather than pass it on to someone who is 2 C not appropriately schooled as to how to handle it. 2 3 Q. Okay. The members of the transformer 23 subcommittee -- Let me strike that and try to ask it 2 Si another way. 2 4 When the transformer subcommittee was 2 > coming up with their input into the final version of
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C-107, did -- was that information shared with members of the capacitor subcommittee?
A. Yes. Definitely. Q. So there, was an interchange and exchange of knowledge and opinions? A. That is correct. Q. Did you facilitate that interchange or exchange of information? A. On occasion, but much of it happened on an informal basis between meetings particularly. Q. How did that manifest itself? A. Well, most of it was by telephone, where the person designated in the working group as the author of the written work would call his counter on the other committee, compare notes, how are you handling this portion or this idea, so that there was some consistency.
In fact, some portions of this document were really -- I want to say -- use the word co-authored by the working groups when it comes to suggestions, what kind of cream does he use on his hands to avoid injure to his skin. It applies to both committees so it was combined. There was no separate section for capacitors as distinguished from
(i transformers.
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1 Q. Well, now, with the section we've just c been talking about in connection with disposal, is it : exclusive to the transformer subcommittee? I A. Yes. Because the disposal of : transformers involved tearing into a unit and : salvaging the component, the disposal of capacitors, i at least at that point in time, did not involve, in most cases, the dismantling of the unit and trying to ; save any parts of it. The whole unit was disposed. : Q. It was packaged in a certain pack? That l is, the capacitor was the ultimate disposal; is that - right? 1 A. That's right. 1 ! Q. Is it your belief thatmembers of the 1 : capacitor subcomittee were familiar with the 1 : transformer subcommittee's concensus as to 1 l transformer disposal? 1 : A. Yes. 1 Q. I think every --Strike that. 2 : Was every organization represented -- 2 I Try it one more time. Strike and withdraw. 2 ; As to every organization represented on 2 : C-107 -- I invite you to -look at the forward just for 2 i the particular organizations -- Was there 2 : representation for each of the organizations on
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either the transformer subcommittee or on the capacitor subcommittee?
A. Yes. I don't know if -- Some of the members did miss some of the meetings, just as I missed a meeting or two because of press of other work. But in every instance, they tried hard to be present at the meetings and to participate in their 6 assigned working group. $ Q. Let me be more specific. 1C Would it -- Was it customary to have a 1 3 member of the Electric Light & Power Group serve on lk either the transformer subcommittee or capacitor 1 subcommittee? 14 A. I believe, in that case, Mr. Lengefeld 11 was assigned to the transformer committee. 1 6 (Discussion was held off the record. ) . 11 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFP) Mr. Papageorge, do you 1 6 recollect the name of a Florida Power & Light 15 employee named Thomas Fair? 2 C A. It rings a -- Yes. I think. Yeah. I 2 3 remember that one. 22 Q. Can you recollect the nature of any of 2: your contact with Mr. Fair from Florida Power & 24 Light? 2 A. They were telephone calls that he made.
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1 And his purpose was to kind of keep up-to-date on 2 things really. 3 Q. Do you recall any other employee or 4 representatives from Florida Power & Light who called 5 you to keep up-to-date? 6 A. No. I associate Mr. Fair's name with 7 another Fair that I was familiar with. That's why I 8 remembered the name. There were not too many 9 contacts with Florida Power & Light. 10 Q. What do you mean by that? 11 A. As compared to other companies where I'd 1 2 get many phone calls from different parts of the 13 country, different plants. Florida Power & Light, 14 Mr. Fair is the only one that I recall calling me 15 over the telephone maybe twice at the most. More 16 than once, anyway. 17 Q. Okay. I think you testified that he was 1 8 trying to keep up-to-date. Up-to-date as to what? 19 A. The PCB situation. What's going on and 20 what your toxicity studies are showing and analytical 2 1 work and so on. What's the government going to do. 2 2 Q. Can you put those telephone calls -- 23 which I understand is more than one? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Into some sort of time frame?
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1 A. Oh, gosh. 2 Q. And let's try to use the adoption of 3 C-107 in January '74. Maybe that's a time reference 4 that would be of some help to you. 5 A. It would be somewhere between, I'd say, 6 late '71 to late '74. Somewhere in that period of 7 t ime . 8 (Said instrument was marked as Exhibit 9 No. 379, 2-21-90, CKP.) 10 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) And could you 1 1 identify, please. Exhibit 379, which is a letter 12 dated October 27, 1975, over your signature? It's 13 PSA Bates stamp 001694. 14 A. It's a copy of a letter I wrote to 15 Mr. Fair. This was late 1975, not '74. Okay. 16 Q. Let me see the letter for a moment. 17 It's short, so I'll just read it verbatim. 1 8 Dear Mr. Fair: Enclosed is the 19 literature I offered to mail you. I hope you find it 20 helpful. If I can be of further service, please let 2 1 me know. Sincerely, W.B. Papageorge. 2 2 Do you recollect the type of literature
you were sending to Mr. Fair with that cover letter? A. These handwritten letters? Q. Yes.
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1 A. It's a code my secretary used that 2 describe the kind of material she sent him. I do not 3 recall all of them. 4 Q. Let's identify what the letters are, for 5 the record, so we can all understand. 6 A. Handwritten letters at the bottom left 7| portion of the page are in caps, E, T, BB, LL. E 8 refers to an environmental statement that I had 91 prepared and it described the detection of PCBs and 10 the environmenal need to control escape, that kind of 1 1 statement . 12 Q. Excuse me. As to the environmental 13 statement, do you know the date that statement was 14 generated? In other words, circa 1971 or circa 1975? 15 A. The original version was about late 1970 16 and it underwent revisions as we went along, about 17 one revision a year, I would suggest. Maybe one 18 every eight months. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. There was a summary statement of the 2 1 result of toxicity studies. 2 2 Q. Whose summary statement of the result of 23 toxicity studies? 24 A. Monsanto sponsored studies that were 25 summarized for me by our medical department at about
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l| every six to eight months.
Q. What type of specimans were being used
3 for that study?
4| A. Specimans?
Q. Fish or -- I'm not using the correct
0 word.
71 A. These studies included rats.
Q. Lawyers?
A. These are the white long-tailed type.
1d Chickens. Ill Q.
Leg-horn chicken?
10 A. Leg-horn chickens. And dogs. Those are
10 the three species that were studied. And I had
14 copies of those summary statements that I would give
10 out on request.
10 I don't recall what BB and LL stood for
17 but -
10 Q. Okay.
10 A. All I can say, they had a select package
20 that we would send out for general information on the
2 H sub ject .
20 Q. I'd just like to go back to your CV for
20 a moment again and update because we've limited our
24 time frame and your duties.
20 I believe for the period of manager of
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l| environmental control, which reflects a time period of 1970 to 1973, the resume or CV then reflects that you became manager, product acceptability, Monsanto
ij Industrial Chemical Company, 1973 to 1977. What were your duties under that
posit ion? A. I retained the responsibilities I had up
till then on the PCBs and was assigned other products manufactured by Monsanto and marketed by the group that I was reporting into at the time.
Q. Would these products -- I'll ask you to 1 identify them in a moment. But were those products 1 that also were thought to be environmental 1 contaminants or dangers? 1 A. No. They were just the product line. 1 Q. Such as? 1 A. Well, let me think back. Obviously, we 1 had the substitute product to the PCBs, the new 1 hydraulic fluids and new heat transfer fluids. We 2 had swimming pool treatment chemicals, we had some 2 U chemicals that are used to treat paper to make it - 2 give it a different coating, and all paper chemicals. 2 Q. Okay. I just want to get representative 2 samp1es. 2 A. It was a mixture of product. My
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: responsibility was to see that they were properly 5 labelled, properly packaged, and the appropriate 3 information was disseminated to the customers.
Q. Okay. Now, the next line on your CV 3 reflects that in 1977, you became manager, product f acceptability for Monsanto Chemical Intermediate
Company. 3 What is Monsanto Chemical Intermediate?
A. Those are operating units within Monsanto. Prior to that date, I was with the unit ll called industrial chemicals. These are the paper It chemicals, rubber chemicals, industrial chemicals. 1$ In 1977, I was assigned to the company 14 that made chemicals that are not end products in 1$ themselves to the customer but they are referred to 1$ as intermediates. They are stepping stones to the 17 final product. 1$ Q. Okay. 1$ A. So it was a different set ofproducts 20 that I was assigned. 21 Q. Okay. 2t A. I no longer hadresponsibility for PCBs 23 at that time. 24 Q. All right. While you may not have 2$ had -- Strike that.
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While you no longer had responsibility
for PCBs at that time, did you maintain your
communication with certain entities or anybody in
connection with the updates as to Monsanto findings
as to PCBs in the environment?
A. No. There were other individuals that
were assigned that task at the time.
Q. Who is that?
. A.
Immediately after I was reassigned, it
1C was Cole Weber. And following Mr. Weber, there was a
1 3 Dr. Cumming Payton and a David Wood.
12 MS. BERKOWITZ: I'm sorry. I
1 >: didn't get the name before David Wood.
14 THE WITNESS: Cumming Payton.
1 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Okay.
ie MS. BERKOWITZ: Off the record.
ii (Discussion was held off the record.)
IE (The requested portion of the record was
15 read by the Reporter.)
2 C Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Back to your CV for a
2 3 moment. 1983 to 1985, director, environmental
22 operations, Monsanto Industrial Chemicals. What was
2 the nature of that position?
24 A. Let's see. '83 to '85 period?
2 Q. Yes, sir.
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A. I was responsible for environmental issues at the work place, industrial hygiene, work place safety, and product acceptability for that operating unit.
Q. Did that include PCBs? A. '83 to '85?. The individual who was responsibility for coordinating PCB activities reported to me in that period of time. Q. And who was that? A. Dr. John Craddock. Q. When did you leave the chairmanship of C-10 7 ? The question is getting a little less heartfelt at this time of day. A. Sometime in the early part of 1976. Q. What was the reason why you discontinued that position? A. That coincided pretty closely with the transfer of the PCB activity to Mr. Cole Weber. And since I was no longer involved with PCBs, my new bosses were insisting I concentrate my efforts in other areas. So I was then forced to tell the committee that I could no longer serve as its chairman, that they would have to find someone else. Q. Do you know who replaced you? A. I don't. I don't recall anymore.
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1 Q. Okay. We talked about, I think it was 2 the January '72 letter you authored to Mr. Raab and 3 Mr. Pozefsky, which addressed the analytical 4 capabilities of PCB levels detection? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. You recollect that correspondence? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And then I asked you a question or 9 series of questions in connection with whether you 10 recollect any utilities submitting mineral oil 1 1 samples to Monsanto for PCB testing. And I think 12 your answer to that was, no, you don't recall any 13 utilities doing that. 14 A. That is correct. 15 Q. Okay. Was Monsanto available though to 1 6 accept mineral oil samples from entities such as 1 7 utilities, in the period of 1972 to 1974, for PCB 18 detection of mineral oil samples, understanding it 19 wasn't done based upon your recollection? 20 A. Monsanto's laboratory was not in a good 2 1 position to provide regular analytical services to 2 2 customers. However, on a case-by-case basis, at the 23 specific request of a customer, for a very special 24 time period and special need, we would, when we 25 could, help out.
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1 Q. What do you mean by help out? 2 A. We would ask them to send us their 3 sample taken a certain way. We would tell them to 4 preserve it, how to ship it, we would analyze that 5 sample, send them back the results. 6 At the same time, we would try to 7 recommend the laboratory that could do it for them, 8 on a routine basis, rather than the way we were 9 situated, on a special basis. 10 Q. The limited special basis, which you've 1 1 just described for. the Monsanto laboratory, did you 12 disseminate information to the industry, including 13 utility industry, which let them know that in a 14 limited fashion you would -- you being Monsanto - 15 would be available for this testing procedure? 16 A. No. We did not announce the 1 7 availability of it. It was always at the request of 1 8 a customer asking us if we would help that we would 19 consider it. 20 Q. All right. 21 (Said instrument was marked as Exhibit 22 No. 380, 2-21-90 , CKP. ) .
Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) I'll ask you to identify, if you can, what has been marked as Exhibit 380, which is a composite exhibit, and it's got Bates
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1 stamp 147039 through 043, and I'll ask you some 2 questions. 3 A. March 9, 1967 letter on General Electric 4 letterhead. 5 MR. CLAYMAN: Can we go off the 6 record just a second? 7 (Discussion was held off the record.) 8 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Just to clear up any 9 problems you all have looking at 380, do you all have 10 an attendance roster? 1 1 MS. BERK0WITZ: Yes. 1 2 MS. RUMAGE: Yes. 13 MR. GRANOFF: That's a yes, right? 14 Just take that page and flip it over. 15 MR. DAVIDSON: This is not copied 1 6 front and back. 17 MR. GRANOFF: All right. You all 1 8 can struggle with me. 19 MS. BERK0WITZ: What's the last 20 page you have? 21 MR. GRANOFF: Will be Exhibit B-10 2 2 and it is Bates stamped 147043. On the obverse of 23 that page is Exhibit B-9 with letters C and D. Are 24 you all with me? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
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MR. SMITH: Yo. MR. GRANOFF: Thank you. Okay. Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Can you identify Exhibit 380, sir? A. It's a copy of a letter, General Electric letterhead, authored by Mr. E.L. Raab, and addressed to many individuals. And it has attached to it a copy of the minutes of the meeting that this particular group that held and it also includes, on the face of the cover letter, the suggestion on what to bring to a subsequent meeting. Q. Okay. Now, the list of gentlemen listed on Page Bates stamped 147039 starts with Karl Bremer all the way through C.R. Willmore. You see that in 1 front of you, correct? 1 A. I do. 1 Q. Are those the members of the transformer 1 subcommittee in February of 1976? 1 MR. SMITH: Objection to the form. 2 A. Yes. 2 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) I'm going to need to 2 go through some of these names, probably each and 2 every name, and so if you can recollect who those 2 people work for, what they do - 2 Before I do that, let me pick out a
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1 couple that I'm already familiar with. Take for 2 instance, Mr. Cawley, Mr. Lengefeld and Mr. Onishi.
3 These three names appear as members of a transformer
4 subcommittee circa February 1976, correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you know if all three of those
7 gentlemen were members of the transformer
8 subcommittee at the time C-107 was approved in 1974?
9 In other words, does this document
10 refresh your recollection?
1 1 A. Yes. Yes, they were originally on the
1 2 committee and continued to be in 1976.
1 3 Q. Those were the three representatives of
14 the Electric Light Utility Group on the C-107
iq Committee? 16 A.
Correct. Electric Light & Power group
17 or board.
18 Q. Okay.
19 MR. SMITH: Can I ask for a
20 clarification? When you said all of these people,
2 a were you referring to the three?
22 MR . GRANOFF:: Three . Yes .
23 > MR . SMITH: I see . Okay . 24 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) There' s one other 29 that 1s of particular interest t o me . That 1s the
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4 of W.A. Thue, if I'm pronouncing it correctly. r
Do you see that? A. Yes, I see it. Q. Do you know a gentlemen from Florida 4 Power & Light known as William Thue? A. I don't recall that name. Q. Were persons added to the transformer 3 subcommittee after C-107 was adopted in January 1974? A. I cannot speak -- Well, Let me think back here. There were people added to the committee 1i through the two or three year period. But I don't 10 recall just when they were added, at what point in 13 time. 14 Q. As of March 1976, were you still 1$ chairman of the committee? 10 A. No. I was replaced, if I remember 17 correctly, either late January or early February of 1 $ that year. 1$ Q. Okay. We're close. 20 But at that point, you feel as though 21 that your duties had been assumed by someone else? 20 A. Yes. 2$ Q. Marchof 1976 - 24 A. -- You asked me earlier who replaced (; 2$ me. I recall now. No one really replaced me so much
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. 314) 727-6503
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3j as Mr. Willmore from the NEMA staff replaced me and ir Mr. Salazar. The two of us were no longer involved.
So he acted as general chairman. Q. The attendance roster, if you would turn
now to Bates Stamp 147043, reflects companies represented -- individuals and the companies represented.
Again, Mr. Thue's, W.A. Thue's, name is reflecting that he represented Florida Power & 10 Light. 11 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you have any recollection as to 1$ whether either Mr. Thue or any member of Florida 14 Power & Light was on the C-107 transformer 10 subcommittee at any time from 1971 until C-107 was 10 adopted in January of 1974? 11 A. I do not. 10 Q. Now, the fourth name down on the 10 attendance roster is J.J. Cawley representing, 20 appears to be, Edison Electric Institute. 2| A. Uh-huh. 23 Q. Correct? 20 A. Yes. I see that. 24 Q- Okay. I'm sorry. 20 A. Yes.
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. {.3.14 ) 7 2 7-650 3
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Q. Who is -- Who was Edison Electric % Institute?
A. As I understand it, that's another 4 industry group that consists of equipment 0 manufacturers, appliance manufacturers. That's about f it really. By equipment, I'm talking about electric
equipment like transformers and capacitors and 9 electric switches and the like. And appliance
manufacturers includes manufacturers of washing machine, electric appliances.
Q. Do you believe utilities were part of IV. this trade group, Edison Electric Institute? l' A. I don't recall them as being 1 represented. 11 Q. And I think you indicated earlier that If one of the gentlemen from the electric utility 1 group -- I'd like to get the name so let's withdraw 1 the question and give me a second. 1 Si I think you testified earlier that one 2 0 of the representatives, whether it be Mr. Lengefeld, 2 ] Mr. Onishi or Mr. Cawley, of the electric 2 l: representatives on the C-107 were employed by common 20 Commonwealth Edison. And the roster seems to 20 indicate that Mr. Onishi was. 25 A. That was the one.
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Q. Employed by Commonwealth Edison? A. Yes. Q. Who is Commonwealth Edison? 4 A. That's a utility. As I understand it, 5 it's in the northeast somewhere. I associated them 6 with part of the midwest. Ohio, up in there. 7 Q. Chicago area? 8 A. I don't know about Chicago. Just 9 generally up in the northeast of here. 10 Q. Fair enough. Mr. Sloat, did you know 11 him, sir? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. He was employed by Westinghouse 14 Electric; is that correct? 15 A. That is correct. 16 Q. And what was his duties, if you know, 17 with Westinghouse? 18 A. Well, I don't know that I can describe 19 his official duties. To me, he represented the most 20 knowledgeable person in Westinghouse regarding 2 1 transformer design and manufacturer. 22 Q. Did you serve -- Did you serve on any NEMA committees or 9subcommittees? A . No . Q. I'd like for you to turn to Bates Stamp
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1 147041, Item 8, Transformer Rebuilding & Service
2 Testing.
3 A . I see it.
4 Q. Okay. Would you take a momentand read
5 that section to yourself and I'll -- just let me know
6 and I'll ask you a question or two.
7 A. I have read it.
8 Q. Okay. What is yourunderstanding as to
9 the nature of the language contained within Item 8?
10 In other words, the question that is being asked
11 within I tern 8.
12 MR. SMITH: Object to the form of
13 that question as being vague.
14
MR. DAVIDSON:
Mr. Granoff, I'd
15 like to state, on the record, too, that is not a
16 document produced by Monsanto or by Mr. Papageorge,
17 that he's ever seen before, and he is not an
18 addressee on, and you are asking him to comment on
19 something that you just as well might ask anybody at
20 the table.
21
MR. GRANOFF:
This table?
22 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Well, as best you can
23 understand the language contained within No. 8, what
24 is the nature of the question that was being asked?
25
MR. SMITH:
Same objection.
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1 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Based upon your 2 experience, as the chairman of the C-107 Committee 3 from 1971 through approximately January or February 4 1976, and your involvement with the transformer and 5 capacitor subcommittees. 6 A. Well, this reflects a concern that was 7 expressed at the committee during its work sessions 8 as to how does a repair shop recognize that the unit 9 that arrives for servicing contains PCBs or not. And 10 the concern also is how do we communicate to these 11 repair shops the need for proper handling to make 1 2 sure that the PCB askarels are not mishandled and 13 lost to the environment. 14 Q. Okay. Your testimony just seconds ago 15 was to the effect that the questions or question that 16 was raised in Item 8 had been previously raised in 17 the working groups subcommittees. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Approximately what was the time frame in 2 0 which that issue had been raised? And again, I ask 2 1 you to look at it to the extent that the 22 organizational meeting was September of 1971 and the 23 C-107 wa,s adopted January '74. So if you can try to 2 4| use that as a time frame. 25 A. Yes.
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1 MR. SMITH: I have to object r L 2 because it's not clear what the question is as you're
3 phrasing it.
4
Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF)
Okay. Do you
5 understand my question, sir?
6 A. I think I do. You asked me when this
7 need to identify PCB type unit was discussed?
8 Q. For purposes of the repair shops.
9 A. The repair shops. It came about in a
10 discussion, oh, sometime during 19 -- Let me think
11 back -- '73, when the group was deliberating and
12 worked on its draft document.
13 Q. When you say the group, the transformer
14 subcommittee?
IE A. Transformer.
16 Q. Working subcommittee?
17 A. Working group.
16 Q. Do you recollect the time frame or the
15 circumstances in which this was raised? If you can
2C identify an individual or groups that seemed to raise
23 it or the framework in which the issue was
22 approached?
23 A. I don't associate it with any particular
24 person. It came up during the discussion as how does
2E the shop know the units that are arriving for service
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD.
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1 fit these documents and needs this special
2 attent ion. 3
The group discussed ways to communicate
4 this. And as I recall, they left it up to the owner
5 of the unit when applying for this service to
6 communicate to the service shop what kind of unit
7 it's sending. So the responsible rested with the
8 owner of the equipment.
9 Q. Was the issue approached from the
10 standpoint that utilities themselves owned
11 transformers and that utilities themselves have their
1 2 own equipment repair shops?
13 MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading.
14 A. It wasn't limited to their own shops.
15 It was limited to any transformer, any shop.
16 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) What happened to this
17 issue as it was -- as you recollect it being
18 addressed in 1973?
19 A. It was decided amongst the group to
2 C leave the responsibility for notification to the --
2 1 Q. I'm sorry.
2 2 A. -- to the owner of the transformer.
23 Q. Was the the conclusion of the
24 subcommittee as to leaving the information to the
25 owner of the units, was that then placed into the
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. 7 2.7-65173--------------------------------------------------------
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contents of the C-107 as approved In January '74 ?
A. I don't think it was placed in the wording of the document, no.
Q. So it was an issue that was discussed but not then addressed specifically in the final and approved version of C-107, correct?
A. That's right. Q. Now, the language of this question as it's framed in Item 8, I'll read it verbatim, if you don't mind.
How do you test (simply) to determine the presence of askarels in oil-filled transformers returned to service shops for repairs?
Do you recollect, in the 1973 discussions, that that was the question that was framed at that time?
In other words, the question that appears in Item 8, in the 1976 document, was that the question that was, in substance, raised in 1973?
A. The question discussed in '73 did not limit itself just to the testing of the oil. It was much broader than that. It was, how does the shop know the unit contains oil? It doesn't say, did it test the oil or does it talk to the owner or did it
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look at the information that's on the plate on the unit.
It did not address the specifics of how do you identify. This particular sentence gets very specific regarding how do you test the oil for presence of askarels.
Q Yes . A . Which is, and as far as I can recall, going back to 1973, a new quest ion that was not raised in 1973 . Q. I'm a little bit confused. Maybe it's 1 because it 's been a long day . But what then -- I 1 don't want be redundant. Just for my purposes, if 1 you can clarify, what was the question raised in 1 1973, which you recollect? 1 A. The question was, how does the service 1 shop, whether it be on site and owned by the utility 1 or the owner of the transformer or a contract shop or 1 one supplied by the builder of the units like a G.E. 2 or Westinghouse, how do they know that the unit that 2 is going to be worked on contains askarels? 2 Q. And were they -- Was the concern as to mineral oil design transformers?
In other words, were they concerned - Strike, withdraw.
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Was the concern of the subcommittee that there were mineral oil designed transformers that had askarel or PCBs in it?
MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading. A. That was only part of the concern. They had addressed all transformers that had some PCBs in them, whether a little bit or a lot. ' MR. GRANOFF: Excuse me. I'll tell you, I'm getting a little tired. 1(1 (Discussion was held off the record.) l (Deposition stood in recess.) 12: IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED BETWEEN 13 COUNSEL THAT THE DEPOSITION MAY BE SIGNED K, BEFORE ANY NOTARY PUBLIC. 13
1 18 13 20 2 22! 23 2<23
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503
WATER PCB-SD0000060368
. DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET . WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE
In re:
Case No. 85-0571-CIV-SPELLMAN In the United States District Southern District of Florida
Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be made:
Page No. 1) to 2) Zo 3) z. / 4) 5 3 5) 3 */ 6) 3 >4 7) toO
8) 7/
9) 10) 11) 12)
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13)
14)
15)
, Subscribed to before me this
<3G2*.
Deponent day of ~~)Was,cJLd 19*^9
JOSEPHINE S.NIBLOCK Notary Public - State of Missouri
St Louis County My Commission Expires January 15,1991
My Commission expires:
i\iary ruonc t ~ ,
County of
y?lU~o
State of Missouri
WATER PCB-SD0000060369
173
I, WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, do hereby state that I have read the foregoing questions and answers appearing in this transcript of ray deposition Page 6 REPLACE through and including Page 171; that this is a true and accurate (corrected) report of said answers given in response to the questions appearing herein.
WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE
1
1 CERTIFICATE:
1 STATE OF MISSOURI
1 ) SS COUNTY OF ST. LOUIS )
1
1 Before me personally appeared
1 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE to me known to be the person
1 described in and who executed the foregoing
1 instrument and acknowledged to and before me that he
1 executed the said instrument in the capacity and for
2 the purpose therein expressed.
2 WITNESS my hand and official seal
2 1990
2
JOSEPHINES. NIBLOCK
Notify Public - State of Missouri
2
St. Louis County
NOTARY
My Commission Expires January 18,1991
2 My Commissio.n Expires:
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. / o i a \ '70*7 -- ARnq
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1 NOTARIAL CERTIFICATE
2 STATE OF MISSOURI
)
3 COUNTY OF MARION
4
) SS )
5 I, CINDY KEAST PLOWMAN, a General
6 Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for the
7 County of Marion, State of Missouri, duly
8 commissioned, qualified and authorized to administer
9 oaths and to take and certify depositions, do certify
1 0 that pursuant to notice and subpoena in the civil
1 1 cause now pending and undetermined in the United
1 2 States District Court for the Southern District of
1 3 Florida, entitled UNITED STATES OF AMERICA is the
14 Plaintiff, PEPPER'S STEEL and ALLOYS, INC., FLORIDA
1 5 POWER & LIGHT COMPANY, NORTON BLOOM, THOMAS A.
1 6 CURTIS, WILLIAM PAYNE, FLORA B. PAYNE and LOWELL
1 7 PAYNE are the Defendants, PEPPER'S STEEL and ALLOYS
1 8 INC., and NORTON BLOOM are the Cross-P1 aintiffs,
19 FLORIDA POWER & LIGHT COMPANY is the Cross-Defendant,
20 FLORIDA POWER & LIGHT COMPANY is the Cross-P1aintiff
2 1 and Third Party Plaintiff and PEPPER'S STEEL AND
22 ALLOYS, INC., et a1., are the Cross-Defendants and
23 UNITED STATES FIDELITY AND GUARANTEE COMPANY, et al. ,
24 are the Third Party Defendants was attended at 9:00
25 a.m. on the 21st day of February, 1990.
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (~3TT] 727-6503
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1 Keith, Mack, Lewis, Allison & 2 Cohen, 111 N.E. First Street, Suite 500, Miami, 3 Florida, By: Mr. Loren S. Granoff, Attorneys for 4 Pepper's and Bloom. 5 Peterson & Bernard, 707 Southeast 6 Third Avenue, P.0. Drawer 14126, Fort Lauderdale, 7 Florida, By: Mr. Donald J. Fann, Attorneys for 8 Pepper's and Bloom. 9 Coll, Davidson, Carter, Smith, 10 Salter & Barkett, P.A., 3200 Miami Center - 100 11 Chopin Plaza, Miami, Florida, By: Mr. Richard C. 12 Smith, Attorneys for Florida Power & Light Company. 13 Baker & McKenzie, 701 Brickell 14 Avenue, #1600, Miami, Flroida, By: Mr. Landon K. 15 dayman, Attorneys for Home Insurance Company. 16 Thornton, David, Murray, Richard & 11 Davis, P.A., 2950 S.W. 27th Avenue, Suite 100, Miami, 16 Florida, By: Ms. Sheryl E. Berkowitz, Attorneys for 19 Home Insurance Company. 2C Rivkin, Radler, Dunne & Bayh, EAB 23 Plaza, Uniondale, New York 11556-0111, By: Ms. 22 Sarah A. Rumage, Attorneys for USF&G. 23 Mendes <& Mount, Three Park Avenue, 24 New York, New York, By: Ms. Elizabeth A. Nelson, 25 Attorneys for Lloyd's.
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1 Smith, Helms, Mulliss & Moore, 300
2 N. Greene Street, Suite 1400, P.0. Box 21927,
3 Greensboro, North Carolina, Attorneys for deponent
4 and Monsanto.
.
.
5 The witness, WILLIAM B. PAPAGE0RGE,
6 being of sound mind, came before me, was duly sworn
7 by me to testify the truth, the whole truth and
8 nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid,
9 thereupon testified as is shown in the foregoing
10 transcript, said testimony being by me reported in
11 stenotypy and caused to be transcribed into
1 2 typewriting under my supervision; that the foregoing
1 3 172 pages correctly set forth the testimony of the
14 aforementioned witness, WILLIAM B. PAPAGE0RGE,
15 together with the questions propounded by counsel,
1 6 and remarks and objections of counsel thereto, and is
17 in all respects a full, true, correct, and complete
1 8 transcript of the questions propounded to and the
19 answers given by said witness; that the said
2 C testimony, so transcribed, was subscribed to by him
2 1 in the County of St. Louis, State of Missouri, on the
21st day of February, 1990 A.D.
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. ------------------------- { 314 j--727-6 50.3
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I further certify that I am not of 2| counsel nor attorney for either of the parties to S said suit, nor related to, nor interested in any of 4| the parties or their attorneys. 3 WITNESS ray hand and notarial seal 3 at St. Louis , Missouri , thisday of,
1990 A.D. My Commission Expires: March 20, 1993
1C 1: 1 1 GENERAL SHORTHAND REPORTER and
NOTARY PUBLIC in and for the County U of Marion, State of Missouri. 10 l c; 1 1 , 19 20 2: 2; 20 29 20
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD ( 314 )--7TT-B.5TT3
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as Mr. Willmore from the NEMA staff replaced me and Mr. Salazar . The two of us were no longer involved. So he acted as general chairman.
Q. The attendance roster, if you would turn now to Bates Stamp 147043, reflects companies represented -- individuals and the companies represented
Again, Mr. Thue1s, W.A. Thue's, name is reflecting that he represented Florida Power & Light.
A . Yes . Q Do you have any recollection as to whether either Mr. Thue or any member of Florida Power & Light was on the C-107 transformer subcommittee at any time from 1971 until C-107 was adopted in January of 1974? A . I do not. Q Now, the fourth name down on the attendance roster is J.J. Cawley representing, appears to be, Edison Electric Institute. A . Uh-huh. Q. Correct? A . Yes. I see that. Q Okay. I'm sorry. ' A. Yes .
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: Q. Who is -- Who was Edison Electric
s Institute? e i A.
As I understand it, that's another
i industry group that consists of equipment
f i manufacturers, appliance manufacturers. That's about
( ; it really. By equipment, I'm talking about electric
*i equipment like transformers and capacitors and
i t electric switches and the like. And appliance
i manufacturers includes manufacturers of washing
1C i machine, electric appliances.
l: Q. Do you believe utilities were part of
15 this trade group, Edison Electric Institute?
ic A. I don't recall them as being
represented.
1 Q. And I think you indicated earlier that
1 ( i one of the gentlemen from the electric utility
i; group -- I'd like to get the name so let's withdraw
11 i the question and give me a second.
is i I think you testified earlier that one
2 C i of the representatives, whether it be Mr. Lengefeld,
2: Mr. Onishi or Mr. Cawley, of the electric
2 5 ! representatives on the C-107 were employed by common
25 i Commonwealth Edison. And the roster seems to
24 , indicate that Mr. Onishi was.
2 i A. That was the one.
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Q. Employed by Commonwealth Edison? A . Yes . Q. Who is Commonwealth Edison? 4 A. That's a utility. As I understand it, 5 it's in the northeast somewhere. I associated them 6 with part of the midwest. Ohio, up in there. 7 Q. Chicago area? 8 A. I don't know about Chicago. Just 9 generally up in the northeast of here. 10 Q. Fair enough. Mr. Sloat, did you know 1 1 him, sir? 1 2 A. Yes. 1 3 Q. He was employed by Westinghouse 14 Electric; is that correct? 15 A. That is correct. 16 Q. And what was his duties, if you know, 17 with Westinghouse? 1 8 A. Well, I don't know that I can describe 19 his official duties. To me, he represented the most 20 knowledgeable person in Westinghouse regarding 2 1 transformer design and manufacturer. 22 Q. Did you serve -- Did you serve on any 23 NEMA committees or 9subcommittees? 24 A . No . 25 Q. I'd like for you to turn to Bates Stamp
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166
1 147041, Item 8, Transformer Rebuilding & Service 2 2 Testing. 3 A. I see it. 4 Q. Okay. Would you take a moment and read 5 that section to yourself and I'll -- just let me know 6 and I'll ask you a question or two. 7 A. I have read it. 8 Q. Okay. What is your understanding as to 9 the nature of the language contained within Item 8? 10 In other words, the question that is being asked 1 1 within Item 8. 1 2 MR. SMITH: Object to the form of 13 that question as being vague. 14 MR. DAVIDSON: Mr. Granoff, I'd 15 like to state, on the record, too, that is not a 16 document produced by Monsanto or by Mr. Papageorge, 17 that he's ever seen before, and he is not an 18 addressee on, and you are asking him to comment on 19 something that you just as well might ask anybody at 20 the table. 2 1 MR. GRANOFF: This table? 2 2 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Well, as best you can 23 understand the language contained within No. 8, what 24 is the nature of the question that was being asked? 25 MR. SMITH: Same objection.
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1 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Based upon your 2 experience, as the chairman of the C-107 Committee 3 from 1971 through approximately January or February 4 1976, and your involvement with the transformer and 5 capacitor subcommittees. 6 A. Well, this reflects a concern that was 7 expressed at the committee during its work sessions 8 as to how does a repair shop recognize that the unit 9 that arrives for servicing contains PCBs or not. And 10 the concern also is how do we communicate to these 1 1 repair shops the need for proper handling to make 12 sure that the PCB askarels are not mishandled and 13 lost to the environment. 14 Q. Okay. Your testimony just seconds ago 15 was to the effect that the questions or question that 16 was raised in Item 8 had been previously raised in 17 the working groups subcommittees. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Approximately what was the time frame in 20 which that issue had been raised? And again, I ask 2 1 you to look at it to the extent that the 2 2 organizational meeting was September of 1971 and the 23 C-107 was adopted January '74. So if you can try to 24 use that as a time frame. 25 A. Yes.
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. ---------------------------------------------------------- PJTTT--7 2 7-6 503-------------------------------------------------
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1 MR. SMITH: I have to object because it's not clear what the question is as you're
3 p hr a sin g it. 4 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Okay. Do you 5 understand my question, sir? 6 A. I think I do. You asked me when this 7 need to identify PCB type unit was discussed? 8 Q. For purposes of the repair shops. 9 A. The repair shops. It came about in a 10 discussion, oh, sometime during 19 -- Let me think 1 1 back -- '73, when the group was deliberating and 12 worked on its draft document. 13 Q. When you say the group, the transformer 14 subcommittee? 1 A. Transformer. ie Q. Working subcommittee? 17 A. Working group. 18 Q. Do you recollect the time frame or the IS circumstances in which this was raised? If you can 2 C identify an individual or groups that seemed to raise 2 1 it or the framework in which the issue was 2 2 approached? 23 A. I don't associate it with any particular 24 person. It came up during the discussion as how does 2 the shop know the units that are arriving for service
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fit these documents and needs this special attention.
The group discussed ways to communicate this. And as I recall, they left it up to the owner of the unit when applying for this service to communicate to the service shop what kind of unit it's sending. So the responsible rested with the 8 owner of the equipment. 9 Q. Was the issue approached from the 10 standpoint that utilities themselves owned 11 transformers and that utilities themselves have their 1 2 own equipment repair shops? 13 MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading. 14 A. It wasn't limited to their own shops. 15 It was limited to any transformer, any shop. 1 e Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) What happened to this 17 issue as it was -- as you recollect it being 18 addressed in 1973? 19 A. It was decided amongst the group to 20 leave the responsibility for notification to the -- 2 1 Q. I'm sorry. 2 2 A. -- to the owner of the transformer. 2 Q. Was the the conclusion of the 24 subcommittee as to leaving the information to the M 25 owner of the units, was that then placed into the
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1 contents of the C-107 as approved in 3 January '74?
A. I don't think it was placed in the 4 wording of the document, no.
Q. So it was an issue that was discussed 4 but not then addressed specifically in the final and J approved version of C-107, correct? $ A. That's right.
Q. Now, the language of this question as it's framed in Item 8, I'll read it verbatim, if you don't mind. 1% How do you test (simply) to determine 1$ the presence of askarels in oil-filled transformers 14 returned to service shops for repairs? 1$ Do you recollect, in the 1973 1$ discussions, that that was the question that was It framed at that time? 1$ In other words, the question that 1$ appears in Item 8, in the 1976 document, was that the 20 question that was, in substance, raised in 1973? 2\ A. The question discussed in '73 did not 2% limit itself just to the testing of the oil. It was 2$ much broader than that. It was, how does the shop 24 know the unit contains oil? It doesn't say, did it 2$ test the oil or does it talk to the owner or did it
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. ( 314 ) 727-6503
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look at the information that's on the plate on the unit .
It did not address the specifics of how do you identify. This particular sentence gets very specific regarding how do you test the oil for =} presence of askarels.
Q. Yes. A. Which is, and as far as I can recall, going back to 1973, a new question that was not 3 raised in 1973. Q. I'm a little bit co,nfused. Maybe it's 1 because it's been a long day. But what then -- I 1 don't want be redundant. Just for my purposes, if 1 you can clarify, what was the question raised in 1 1973, which you recollect? 1 A. The question was, how does the service 1 shop, whether it be on site and owned by the utility 1 ! or the owner of the transformer or a contract shop or 1 one supplied by the builder of the units like a G.E. 2 : or Westinghouse, how do they know that the unit that 2 1| is going to be worked on contains askarels? 2 Q. And were they -- Was the concern as to 2 3 mineral oil design transformers?
In other words, were they concerned -- 3 Strike, withdraw.
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503
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... ('.....
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---
:] , Was the concern of the subcommittee that there were mineral oil designed transformers that had * i askarel or PCBs in it?
A > MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading.
i A. That was only part of the concern. They
i had addressed all transformers that had some PCBs in
' them, whether a little bit or a lot.
{ i MR. GRANOFF: Excuse me. c i you, I'm getting a little tired.
I'll tell
1( (Discussion was held off the record.)
l: (Deposition stood in recess.) 1 i IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED BETWEEN l: COUNSEL THAT THE DEPOSITION MAY BE SIGNED 1< BEFORE ANY NOTARY PUBLIC. 11 1C i: r lj
is 2C 2: 2S 2C 2<
---1ST--------
CM
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503
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ORIGINAL'
173
I, WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, do hereby state
2 that I have read the foregoing questions and answers
3 appearing in this transcript of my deposition Page 6
4 REPLACE through and including Page 171; that this is
5 a true and accurate (corrected) report of said
6 answers given in response to the questions appearing
7 herein.
8
9 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE
10
11 CERTIFICATE:
12 STATE OF MISSOURI
)
13 COUNTY OF ST. LOUIS
14
) SS )
IE Before me personally appeared
1 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE to me known to be the person
17 described in and who executed the foregoing
18 instrument and acknowledged to and before me that he
19 executed the said instrument in the capacity and for
2 C the purpose therein expressed.
21 WITNESS my hand and official seal
this /C* ^ day of ~~)/y\<3A 22
t 1990.
23
JOSEPHINES. NIBLOCK
Notify Public - State of Missouri
24
SL Louis County
NOTARY
My Commission Expires January 15.1991
25 My Commission Expires:
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD.
f O 1 A \ 707-K R~(h Q
WATER PCB-SD00000603(
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1 NOTARIAL CERTIFICATE
2 STATE OF MISSOURI
)
3 COUNTY OF MARION
4
) SS )
5 I, CINDY KEAST PLOWMAN, a General
6 Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for the
7 County of Marion, State of Missouri, duly
8 commissioned, qualified and authorized to administer
9 oaths and to take and certify depositions, do certify
1 0 that pursuant to notice and subpoena in the civil
1 1 cause now pending and undetermined in the United
1 2 States District Court for the Southern District of
1 3 Florida, entitled UNITED STATES OF AMERICA is the
14 Plaintiff, PEPPER'S STEEL and ALLOYS, INC., FLORIDA
1 5 POWER & LIGHT COMPANY, NORTON BLOOM, THOMAS A.
1 6 CURTIS, WILLIAM PAYNE, FLORA B. PAYNE and LOWELL
1 7 PAYNE are the Defendants, PEPPER'S STEEL and ALLOYS
1 8 INC., and NORTON BLOOM are the Cross-P1 aintiffs,
1 9 FLORIDA POWER & LIGHT COMPANY is the Cross-Defendant,
20 FLORIDA POWER & LIGHT COMPANY is the Cross-Plaintiff
2 1 and Third Party Plaintiff and PEPPER'S STEEL AND
2 2 ALLOYS, INC., et al., are the Cross-Defendants and
2 3 UNITED STATES FIDELITY AND GUARANTEE COMPANY, et al.,
24 are the Third Party Defendants was attended at 9:00
25 a.m. on the 21st day of February, 1990.
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. ------------------------- (314) 727-6503---------------------
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Keith, Mack, Lewis, Allison &
Cohen, 111 N.E. First Street, Suite 500, Miami,
Florida, By: Mr. Loren S. Granoff, Attorneys for
Pepper's and Bloom.
Peterson & Bernard, 707 Southeast
Third Avenue, P.0. Drawer 14126, Fort Lauderdale,
Florida,
>
Pepper's
By: and
Mr. Donald Bloom.
J.
Fann,
Attorneys
for
Coll, Davidson, Carter, Smith,
Salter & Barkett, P.A., 3200 Miami Center - 100
Chopin Plaza, Miami, Florida, By: Mr. Richard C.
Smith, Attorneys for Florida Power & Light Company.
1 Baker & McKenzie, 701 Brickell
1 Avenue, #1600, Miami, Flroida, By: Mr. Landon K.
1 dayman, Attorneys for Home Insurance Company.
1 Thornton, David, Murray, Richard &
1 Davis, P.A., 2950 S.W. 27th Avenue, Suite 100, Miami,
1 Florida, By: Ms. Sheryl E. Berkowitz, Attorneys for
1 Home Insurance Company.
2 Rivkin, Radler, Dunne & Bayh, EAB
2 Plaza, Uniondale, New York 11556-0111, By: Ms.
2 Sarah A. Rumage, Attorneys for USF&G.
2 Mendes & Mount, Three Park Avenue,
2 New York, New York, By: Ms. Elizabeth A. Nelson,
2 Attorneys for Lloyd's.
CLAYTON RE_P__O_R_TIN_G__C_OM_P_ANY, LTD.
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r--
.
(...-..i
(;
1 Smith, Helms, Mulliss & Moore, 300 2 N. Greene Street, Suite 1400, P.0. Box 21927,
3 Greensboro, North Carolina, Attorneys for deponent
4 and Monsanto.
-
.
5 The witness, WILLIAM B. PAPAGE0RGE,
6 being of sound mind, came before me, was duly sworn
7 by me to testify the truth, the whole truth and
8 nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid,
9 thereupon testified as is shown in the foregoing
10 transcript, said testimony being by me reported in
. 1 1 stenotypy and caused to be transcribed into 1 2 typewriting under my supervision; that the foregoing
13 172 pages correctly set forth the testimony of the
14 aforementioned witness, WILLIAM B. PAPAGE0RGE,
1 5 together with the questions propounded by counsel,
1 6 and remarks and objections of counsel thereto, and is
1 7 in all respects a full, true, correct, and complete
1 8 transcript of the questions propounded to and the
19 answers given by said witness; that the said
2 C testimony, so transcribed, was subscribed to by him
2 1 in the County of St. Louis, State of Missouri, on the
2 2 21st day of February, 1990 A.D.
23
24
25
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. -------------------------( 314 )--7 2 7-6503---------------------
WATER PCB-SD0000060388
$ I further certify that I am not of 2 counsel nor attorney for either of the parties to
said suit, nor related to, nor interested in any of
4 the parties or their attorneys. WITNESS my hand and notarial seal
at St. Louis, Missouri , thisday of,
7 1990 A.D.
My Commission Expires: March 20, 1993
1C
i:
1
1 GENERAL SHORTHAND REPORTER and NOTARY PUBLIC in and for the County
1 < of Marion, State of Missouri.
15
16
17
1
1 <i
20
2:
20 20
24
25
CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. f3TT] 727-6503
WATER PCB-SD0000060389
. DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET . WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE
In rc:
Case No. 85-0571-CIV-SPELLMAN In the United States District Court
Southern District of Florida
Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be made
Page No. 1) to
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6) 3 4
7) CpO
8) II
9) I*!
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13)
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Deponent
JOSEPHINE S. NIBLOCK
Notary Public *State of Missouri St Louis County
My Commission Expires January 16,1991 My Commission expires:
WATER PCB-SD0000060390