Document 4a0g05rDdywnzw7yR0eKL04OG

1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 2 FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES 3 DEPARTMENT NO. 31 HON. G. KEITH WISOT, JUDGE 4 5 TRANSWESTERN PIPELINE COMPANY, A DELAWARE CORPORATION, 6 PLAINTIFF, 7 VS . 8 MONSANTO COMPANY AND DOES 1 9 THROUGH 200, INCLUSIVE, 10 DEFENDANTS. 11 ) ) ) ) ) ) NO. BC 026959 ) ) ) ) ) ) 12 13 RE PORTER'S DAILY TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 14 DECEMBER 20, 1993 15 VOLUME 23 16 PAGES 3476- 3682 17 18 APPEARANCES: 19 FOR PLAINTIFF: 20 21 22 SHEARMAN & STERLING BY: JAMES P. TALLON, ESQ. & JANET M. GRADY, ESQ. & JERRY MARKS, ESQ. 725 SOUTH FIGUEROA STREET 21ST FLOOR LOS ANGELES, CA 90017 2 3 FOR DEFENDANT: 24 25 26 PREUSS, WALKER & SHANAGHER BY: CHARLES F. PREUSS, ESQ. & DONALD F. ZIMMER, ESQ. & ALAN LAZARUS, ESQ. 595 MARKET STREET 16TH FLOOR SAN FRANCISCO, CA 94105 27 DAVID A. SALYER, CSR #4410 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 2 8 111 NORTH HILL STREET LOS ANGELES, CA 90012 HARTOLDMONOQ43535 HARTOLDMON0043536 1 INDEX FOR VOLUME 23 PAGES 3476 TO 3682 2 MONDAY, DECEMBER 20, 1993 A.M. 3476 3 P.M. 3569 4 5 6 DEFENSE WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 7 8 TUCKER, EARL 3476 3575 3658 9 10 DEPO READING 11 FARMER, EARL 3659 12 13 14 EXHIBITS___________ FOR IDENTIFICATION IN EVIDENCE 15 812 - DIAGRAMS 3 555 16 52 - REPORT 3 58 1 17 391 - REPORT 3 6 08 18 61 - MEMO 3 6 18 19 67 - FLOWCHART 3 62 1 2 0 114 - MEMO 3 64 3 21 213 - REPORT 3 657 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 HARTOLDMON0043537 3 47 6 1 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; MONDAY, DECEMBER 20, 1993 2 9:50 A.M. 3 DEPARTMENT NO. 31 G. KEITH WISOT, JUDGE 4 5 (APPEARANCES AS HERETOFORE NOTED.) 6 (DAVID A. SALYER, OFFICIAL REPORTER.) 7 8 THE COURT: AND GOOD MORNING, LADIES AND 9 GENTLEMEN. 10 RESUMING TRIAL PROCEEDINGS IN 11 TRANSWESTERN VERSUS MONSANTO WITH ALL OF THE 12 APPROPRIATE PARTICIPANTS IN THEIR RESPECTIVE PLACES. 13 MR. TALLON, A FURTHER WITNESS - 14 MR. PREUSS, A FURTHER WITNESS? 15 MR. PREUSS: YES, YOUR HONOR, MONSANTO WOULD 16 LIKE TO CALL AT THIS TIME SCOTT TUCKER. 17 THE CLERK: RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND, SIR, TO BE 18 SWORN. 19 2 0 EARL SCOTT TUCKER, 2 1 CALLED AS A WITNESS BY THE DEFENDANT, MONSANTO, WAS 22 SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: 23 2 4 THE WITNESS: YES, SIR. 25 THE CLERK: PLEASE, BE SEATED. 26 PLEASE STATE AND SPELL YOUR NAME FOR THE 27 RECORD. 28 THE WITNESS: MY NAME IS EARL SCOTT TUCKER THE HARTOLDMONOQ43538 3 477 1 THIRD AND IT'S E-A-R-L, S. T-U-C-K-E-R, AND THE ROMAN 2 NUMERAL THREE. 3 THE COURT: MR. PREUSS. 4 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. PREUSS: 7 Q GOOD MORNING, DR. TUCKER. 8 A GOOD MORNING. 9 Q WHERE DO YOU RESIDE, SIR? 1 0 A I CURRENTLY RESIDE IN SOUTH CAROLINA AT 11 261 NORTH MC ALLISTER IN LIBERTY, SOUTH CAROLINA. 12 Q AND WHAT IS YOUR DATE OF BIRTH, SIR? 1 3 A 12-14-39. 14 Q ARE YOU MARRIED? 15 A YES, SIR. 16 Q AND DO YOU HAVE CHILDREN? 17 A YES, SIR, I HAVE TWO CHILDREN. 18 Q AND WHAT IS YOUR OCCUPATION, SIR? 19 A MY OCCUPATION IS A CHEMIST, MORE 2 0 SPECIFICALLY AN ANALYTICAL CHEMIST. 2 1 Q AND WHAT IS THAT, AN ANALYTIC CHEMIST? 22 A AN ANALYTICAL CHEMIST A BASICALLY A 2 3 CHEMIST WHO MEASURES THINGS IN THE AREA OF CHEMISTRY, 2 4 ENVIRONMENTAL CHEMISTRY, PROCESS CHEMISTRY, THINGS OF 25 THAT SORT. 2 6 Q WHAT IS YOUR EDUCATIONAL BACKGROUND 27 BEGINNING WITH COLLEGE, SIR? 2 8 A I HAVE AN ASSOCIATES DEGREE FROM THE HARTOLDMON0043539 3 4 78 1 UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN. 2 I HAVE A BACHELOR'S DEGREE FROM MICHIGAN 3 STATE UNIVERSITY. 4 AND I HAVE A PH.D FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF 5 IOWA. 6 Q AND WHAT IS THE AREA IN WHICH YOU 7 ACHIEVED YOUR PH.D, SIR? 8 A MY PH.D WAS IN ANALYTICAL ORGANIC 9 CHEMISTRY. 10 Q WHAT IS ORGANIC CHEMISTRY? 11 A "ORGANIC" HAS TO DO WITH CHEMICAL 12 COMPOUNDS THAT ARE ORGANIC IN NATURE. 13 IN OTHER WORDS, WHAT THAT BASICALLY MEANS 1 4 IS THEY ARE MADE UP OF CARBON, HYDROGEN AND THAT KIND 15 OF THING, HYDROCARBONS, GASOLINE, FOR EXAMPLE, IS AN 16 ORGANIC CHEMICAL, EXCUSE ME. 17 Q WHAT IS THE SUBJECT MATTER OF YOUR 18 THESIS, SIR? 19 A "THE ANALYTICAL INVESTIGATION OF MONO-2 20 AZARAL HYDRAZONES" WAS THE TECHNICAL TITLE OF MY 2 1 THESIS. 2 2 Q IS THERE A LAY TRANSLATION OF THAT? 2 3 A WHAT IT DEALT WITH IS DESIGNING MOLECULAR 24 STRUCTURES THAT COULD BE USED TO DETERMINE SPECIFIC 2 5 METTALINES IN DIFFERENT KINDS OF SAMPLES, 26 ENVIRONMENT, THINGS OF THAT SORT. 27 Q AND DID YOU RECEIVE A SCHOLARSHIP TO 28 SUPPORT YOUR PH.D ACTIVITIES, SIR? HARTOLDMON0043540 3479 1 A YES . 2 I WAS AWARDED A NASSAU TRAINEESHIP WHICH 3 WAS A FULL SCHOLARSHIP FOR GETTING MY PH.D. 4 I THINK THAT IS THE NATIONAL AERONAUTICAL 5 AND SPACE SCHOLARSHIP. 6 Q WHAT WAS YOUR FIRST JOB AFTER COMPLETING 7 YOUR FORMAL EDUCATION( SIR? 8 A MY FIRST JOB WAS WITH MONSANTO COMPANY IN 9 ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI. 10 Q WHAT YEAR WAS THAT? 11 A THAT WAS IN 1967. 12 Q AT THAT TIME HAD YOU ACTUALLY HAD YOUR 13 PH.D DEGREE AWARD? . 14 A NO. 15 AT THAT TIME I HAD THE TYPIST -- DIDN'T 16 GET MY THINGS TO THE TYPIST SOON ENOUGH. 17 WE DIDN'T MEET THE DEADLINE FOR 18 SUBMITTING IT. 19 I HAD COMPLETED EVERYTHING SO I HAD TO 2 0 WAIT UNTIL THE NEXT CYCLE. 2 1 I CHOSE TO GO TO WORK FOR MONSANTO IN THE 2 2 SEPTEMBER OF 1967 AND THEN COME BACK AND DEFEND MY 2 3 THESIS IN FRONT OF THE COMMITTEE. 24 Q WHAT DO YOU MEAN "DEFEND" YOUR THESIS? 25 A WHAT BASICALLY HAPPENS IS THAT THE TYPED 26 COPY OF THE THESIS IS SUBMITTED TO A COMMITTEE OF 27 PH.D'S AT THE UNIVERSITY THAT ARE ADVISERS. 2 8 THEY REVIEW THE THESIS AND MAKE SURE HARTOLDMONOQ43541 3480 1 EVERYTHING IS CORRECT AND THAT THEY AGREE WITH THIS 2 AND THAT, THAT KIND OF THING, AND THAT IT'S COMPLETE 3 AND THAT IT'S WORTHY OF A DEGREE. 4 Q NOW, HOW DID YOU GO ABOUT GETTING YOUR 5 JOB WITH MONSANTO, SIR? 6 A AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME A LOT OF THE 7 LARGE CHEMICAL COMPANIES AND PEOPLE INTERESTED IN 8 HIRING CHEMISTS SENT RECRUITERS TO THE CAMPUS. 9 AND THE RECRUITERS WOULD SPEND A DAY AT 10 THE CAMPUS AND SCHEDULE INTERVIEWS WITH VARIOUS 11 CANDIDATES THAT. WERE GOING TO GRADUATE. 12 AT THAT POINT IN TIME THERE WAS A REAL 13 SHORTAGE OF CHEMISTS AND ESPECIALLY WITH ADVANCED 14 DEGREES. 15 SO THERE WAS i^ GOOD MARKET. 16 SO THERE WERE A LOT OF JOB INTERVIEWS 17 AVAILABLE. 18 Q WE WILL GET INTO THE DETAILS OF YOUR JOB 19 RESPONSIBILITIES AT MONSANTO, SIR. 20 FIRST, TELL US HOW LONG DID YOU REMAIN 2 1 WITH MONSANTO AFTER BEGINNING THERE IN 1967? 2 2 A I BELIEVE I REMAINED WITH MONSANTO UNTIL 23 1978 WHICH IS ROUGHLY 11 YEARS. 2 4 Q AND AFTER LEAVING MONSANTO WHAT WAS YOUR 25 NEXT EMPLOYMENT? 2 6 A I WENT TO WORK FOR A COMPANY CALLED AMF 27 INCORPORATED. 28 AMF STANDS FOR AMERICAN MACHINE AND HARTOLDMONOQ43542 3481 1 FOUNDRY. 2 THEY WERE LOCATED IN STANFORD, 3 CONNECTICUT. 4 I WORKED AT THE CORPORATE ENGINEERING. 5 YOU WOULD KNOW THE COMPANY THROUGH THE AMF BOWLING 6 CENTERS, THINGS OF THAT SORT. 7 Q WHAT WAS YOUR JOB RESPONSIBILITY? 8 A MY JOB RESPONSIBILITY THERE WAS TO RUN 9 ENGINEERING AND ANALYTICAL LABORATORIES IN SUPPORT OF 10 THE PROJECTS OF THE COMPANY. 11 Q AND HOW LONG DID YOU STAY WITH AMF? 12 A I WAS WITH AMF UNTIL 1985. 13 IN 1985 AMF WAS INVOLVED IN A HOSTILE 14 TAKEOVER AND THEN THEY WERE THE -- THE COMPANY WAS 15 DISBANDED. 16 THE PEOPLE WERE SUCCESSFUL IN TAKING OVER 17 THAT COMPANY AND, OF COURSE, SHUT DOWN CORPORATE 18 RESEARCH AND THINGS OF THAT SORT. 19 AT THAT POINT IN TIME I LOOKED FOR 20 ANOTHER JOB. 2 1 Q DID YOU FIND ONE? 22 A YES, SIR. 2 3 Q WITH WHAT ORGANIZATION? 24 A I FOUND A JOB WITH A COMPANY CALLED WASTE 2 5 MANAGEMENT INCORPORATED LOCATED IN CHICAGO, ILLINOIS. 2 6 Q AND WHAT IS THE BUSINESS OF WASTE 27 MANAGEMENT, SIR? 28 A WASTE MANAGEMENT IS THEWORLD'S LARGEST HARTOLDMONOQ43543 348 3 1 AS I MENTIONED EARLIER I WAS BROUGHT ON 2 BOARD TO SETUP AND GET STARTED THE FIRST CORPORATE 3 HAZARDOUS WASTE LABORATORY IN CHICAGO AND THEN 4 SUBSEQUENT TO THAT I STARTED UP LABORATORIES IN 5 EUROPE AND HOLLAND AND ALSO IN A TECHNICAL CENTER 6 WHERE I'M LOCATED RIGHT NOW AND THEN HONG KONG ALSO. 7 Q AS PART OF YOUR WORK WITH WASTE 8 MANAGEMENT HAVE YOU DEALT WITH TESTING AND ANALYZING 9 OF PCB SAMPLES, SIR? 10 A YES, SIR. 11 Q COULD YOU TELL US WHAT YOUR LEVEL OF 12 EXPERIENCE HAS BEEN WITH WASTE MANAGEMENT WITH 13 RESPECT TO ANALYZING PCB SAMPLES? 14 A WELL, ONE OF THE REGULATED HAZARDOUS 15 CONSTITUENTS, OF COURSE, ARE POLYCHLORINATED 16 BIPHENYLS. 17 IN FACT THOSE WERE IN THE EARLY TOXIC 18 SUBSTANCES ACT, WERE REALLY THE START OF ALL OF OUR 19 KNOWLEDGE IN THESE PARTICULAR AREAS AND OUR CONCERN 2 0 FOR DOING THINGS. 2 1 SO THE COMPANY ANALYZES, LITERALLY, 2 2 THOUSANDS OF PCB SAMPLES ON A MONTHLY BASIS AND THE 2 3 LABORATORIES I'M ASSOCIATED WITH DO THAT IN 24 ACCORDANCE WITH THE REGULATORY REQUIREMENTS. 2 5 Q DO YOU HAVE ANY ROLE IN SUPERVISING THAT 2 6 ACTIVITY FOR THE COMPANY, SIR? 27 A YES . 2 8 I HAVE DIRECTED SEVERAL OF THEIR HARTOLDMONOQ43545 3 4 84 1 CORPORATE LABORATORIES. 2 Q OKAY. ARE YOU A MEMBER OF ANY 3 PROFESSIONAL SOCIETIES, SIR? 4 A YES, SIR. 5 I BELONG TO THE AMERICAN CHEMICAL SOCIETY 6 AND HAVE SINCE, GOSH, 1963 OR '67. 7 I'M ALSO CURRENTLY ON THE BOARD OF 8 DIRECTORS OF AN ORGANIZATION THAT IS CALLED THE 9 INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF ENVIRONMENTAL TESTING 10 LABORATORIES. 11 BASICALLY WHAT THAT IS A TRADE 12 ORGANIZATION THAT REPRESENTS THE INTERESTS OF OVER 60 13 PERCENT OF THE COMMERCIAL ANALYTICAL LABORATORIES IN 14 THE UNITED STATES AND CANADA. 15 Q AND DOES THAT ORGANIZATION PARTICIPATE IN 16 COMMON PROBLEMS ASSOCIATED WITH ANALYZING VARIOUS 17 SAMPLES THAT MAY BE FOUND IN THE ENVIRONMENT? 18 A THAT'S CORRECT. 19 ITS MAJOR ACTIVITIES ARE ON BEHALF OF THE 20 ANALYTICAL ENVIRONMENTAL COMMUNITY AND IN TERMS OF 2 1 THE TYPES OF METHODS THAT ARE USED, THE 22 ACCREDITATIONS THAT ARE USED, THE QUALITY CONTROL 2 3 THAT IS USED, THINGS OF THAT SORT. 2 4 Q AND HAVE YOU HAD ANY WORK IN THE AREA OF 25 BIODEGRADATION IN CONNECTION WITH YOUR JOB WITH WASTE 2 6 MANAGEMENT, SIR? 2 7 A ABOUT THE JOB WITH WASTE MANAGEMENT I'M 28 NOT DIRECTLY RELATED WITH THOSE KINDS OF HARTOLDMONOQ43546 34 8 5 1 TECHNOLOGIES, BUT THOSE ARE ENGINEERING TECHNOLOGIES 2 USED TO BIOREMEDIATE SITES THAT NEED TO BE 3 REMEDIATED, 4 Q NOW, HAVE YOU PUBLISHED AT ALL IN THE 5 AREAS OF PCB'S, SIR? 6 A YES, SIR. 7 Q AND HAVE YOU PUBLISHED IN THE AREA OF 8 BIODEGRADATION? 9 A YES, SIR. 10 Q AND WHAT HAS BEEN THE SUBJECT MATTER OF 11 YOUR PUBLICATIONS IN THOSE TWO AREAS, SIR? 12 A THE AREA OF THE POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS 13 THE SUBJECT MATTER DEALT WITH THE BIODEGRADABILITY OF 14 THESE MATERIALS. 15 IN FACT, WE, MONSANTO, WE AUTHORED SOME 16 OF THE VERY EARLY PUBLICATIONS THAT DEALT WITH THAT 17 PARTICULAR ITEM AND, IN FACT, DISCOVERED THAT 18 BIODEGRADATION REALLY DID OCCUR. 19 ALSO WITH OTHER TYPES OF MONSANTO 20 PRODUCTS WE USED TO STUDY THE BIODEGRADABILITY OF 2 1 THOSE, PCB RESIDUES, DETERMINATION OF PCB'S IN ANIMAL 22 TISSUES AND THINGS OF THAT SORT, THE METHODOLOGIES 2 3 FOR THOSE KINDS OF THINGS AND THE RESULTS OF THOSE 2 4 FINDINGS, THAT IS, THE FLAVOR, PRIMARILY OF 25 ANALYTICAL CHEMISTRY. 2 6 Q THAT HAS BEEN THE AREA OF YOUR 2 7 PUBLICATIONS, HAS BEEN THE AREA OF ANALYTIC CHEMISTRY 2 8 WITH ARTICLES DEALING SPECIFICALLY WITH PCB ISSUES? HARTOLDMONOQ43547 3 4 86 1 A YES . 2 Q OKAY. LET'S GO BACK TO 1967WHEN YOU 3 JOINED MONSANTO AS AN ANALYTIC CHEMIST. 4 SHORTLY AFTER JOINING MONSANTO DID YOU 5 RECEIVE AN ASSIGNMENT RELATING TO THE ISSUE OF PCB'S, 6 SIR? 7 A YES, SIR. 8 Q AND WHAT WAS THE NATURE OF THE ASSIGNMENT 9 YOU RECEIVED? 10 A THECOMPANY HAD BEEN APPRAISED OF THE 11 FACT THROUGH ITS EUROPEAN CONNECTIONS THAT THERE WERE 12 SOME SCIENTISTS IN SWEDEN, JENSEN AND WIDMARK, WHO 13 WERE REPORTEDLY OBSERVING POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS. 14 THEY TALKED ABOUT POLYCHLORINATED 1 5 BIPHENYLS AND/OR POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENOLS IN 16 ENVIRONMENTAL SAMPLES. 17 AND THAT HAD BEEN BROUGHT TO THE 18 COMPANY'S ATTENTION AND THESE FOLKS WERE ANALYTICAL 19 CHEMISTS PRIMARILY INTERESTED IN ANALYZING 2 0 ENVIRONMENTAL SAMPLES FOR PESTICIDES. 2 1 SO I WAS APPROACHED AS AN ANALYTICAL 22 CHEMIST TO LOOK AT THE METHODOLOGIES THEY WERE USING 23 AND TO BEGIN TO ESTABLISH WITHIN MONSANTO THE 24 CAPABILITY TO DO THOSE KINDS OF THINGS AND TO 25 VALIDATE THE INFORMATION THAT WE WERE RECEIVING FROM 2 6 THIS ONE SCIENCE INSTITUTE. 27 Q OKAY. A COUPLE OF WORDS YOU USED. 28 FIRST WAS "METHODOLOGIES." HARTOLDMONOQ43548 3 48 8 1 ARE FINDING IN SOMETHING IS THE ACTUAL LEVEL THAT IS 2 THERE. 3 AND THAT IS REALLY THE BASIS FOR THE 4 QUALITY ASSURANCE AND QUALITY CONTROL THAT IS 5 ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY FOR ANALYTICAL CHEMISTRY, 6 Q AGAIN, YOU ADDED A COUPLE TERMS, "QUALITY 7 ASSURANCE AND QUALITY CONTROL." 8 TELL US WHAT THOSE TWO TERMS MEAN. 9 A QUALITY ASSURANCE IS AN OVERALL PROGRAM 10 WHEREBY THE DATA GENERATED USING CERTAIN STANDARD 11 OPERATING PROCEDURES, IT'S LEVEL IS KNOWN. 12 THE PROBABILITY OF BEING TRUE IS KNOWN. 1 3 THE QUALITY ASSURANCES ARE THE KIND OF 14 THINGS YOU DO IN TERMS OF CALIBRATING INSTRUMENTS, 15 RUNNING STANDARDS, THINGS OF THAT SORT, THAT ASSURE 16 THAT WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS CORRECT AND THAT PROVIDE A 17 RECORD THAT CAN BE AUDITED AND SHOW THAT YOU ARE 18 CORRECT. 19 ALL OF THIS, WHAT IT AMOUNTS TO IS THAT 2 0 WHEN I DEVELOP A METHOD IN MY LABORATORY AND EVEN 21 THAT METHOD IS USED BY OTHER LABORATORIES WHO DON'T 22 WANT TO REINVENT THE WHEEL, THERE HAS TO BE ENOUGH 23 INFORMATION GENERATED TO SHOW THAT BOTH LABORATORIES 24 ARE APPLYING THE TECHNIQUE IN ABSOLUTELY THE SAME WAY 2 5 SO WE ARE BOTH PRODUCING AMOUNTS THAT ARE 2 6 COMPARABLE. 2 7 Q SO IF ONE LABORATORY GETS CERTAIN 28 RESULTS, THEN YOU CAN BE CONFIDENT THAT, IN FACT, HARTOLDMON0043550 3 49 0 1 SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN IN THE BUSINESS, LIKE I HAVE FOR 2 26 YEARS, TO GET YOUR HANDS AROUND. 3 I GUESS ONE OF THE WAYS YOU MIGHT LOOK AT 4 IT, I GUESS THERE IS SOMETHING LIKE 13 MILLION PEOPLE 5 IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA. 6 A PART PER MILLION WOULD BE LIKE LOCATING 7 13 OF THOSE PEOPLE AMONGST THE 13 MILLION. 8 SO 13 OVER THE TOTAL POPULATION OF THE 9 LOS ANGELES AREA WOULD BE A PART PER MILLION. 10 FROM THERE THE SITUATION DOESN'T GET MUCH 11 BETTER 12 A PART PER BILLION IS 11 THOUSANDTHS OF 13 THAT . 14 AND A PART PER TRILLION IS 11 THOUSANDTHS 15 OF A PART PER BILLION. 16 SO WE ARE, INDEED, DEALING WITH VERY LOW 17 LEVELS. ' 18 Q AND ARE THOSE SOMETIMES REFERRED TO AS 19 TRACE AMOUNTS? 20 A YES, SIR. 2 1 Q DID YOU HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING WITH 2 2 RESPECT TO THE FINDINGS OF DRS. JENSEN AND WIDMARK AS 23 TO WHAT TYPES OF CHLORINATED PCB'S THEY WERE 2 4 REPORTING HAVING FOUND? 2 5 A ULTIMATELY, SEVERAL MONTHS AFTER THE 26 ORIGINAL REPORT, IT WAS VERIFIED THAT WHAT THEY WERE 27 PURPORTEDLY SAYING THEY WERE FINDING WERE PCB'S, 28 POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS VERSUS POLYCHLORINATED HARTOLDMONOQ43552 3 49 1 1 BIPHENOLS. 2 Q PERHAPS YOU COULD USE THE EASEL THERE IN 3 FRONT OF YOU AND TELL US WHAT A PCB LOOKS LIKE. 4 A OKAY. 5 Q AND THEN TELL US THE TYPES OF PCB'S THAT 6 MAY BE FOUND AND WE WILL GO FROM THERE. 7 A OKAY. I WILL BE HAPPY TO ATTEMPT TO. 8 Q THANK YOU. 9 A WE HAVE A WAY OF SYMBOLIZING WHAT 10 CHEMICALS ARE. 11 I DON'T KNOW HOW FAMILIAR YOU ARE WITH 12 IT . 13 I WILL TRY TO EXPLAIN IT TO THE BEST OF 14 MY ABILITY SO WE CAN GET A GOOD FEELING FOR WHAT WE 15 ARE TALKING ABOUT. 16 I HAVE A TENDENCY TO TALK TOO FAST, SO I 17 WILL TRY TO MODERATE THAT. 18 Q WELL, I WILL TRY TOMONITOR THE 19 EXPRESSION ON THE COURTREPORTER'S FACE. 20 A OKAY. 21 I'M SORRY, YOUR HONOR, I DON'T. 22 THIS IS A BASIC SYMBOL WE WOULD USE TO 23 REPRESENT A MOLECULE CALLED BIPHENYL, OKAY? 24 THAT IS WHAT YOU HEAR SO MUCH ABOUT WHEN 2 5 PEOPLE TALK ABOUT POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS. 26 "POLY" MEANS MANY AND "CHLORINATED" 27 MEANS THAT YOU PUT CHLORINE ON THIS PARTICULAR RING 28 ON THIS STRUCTURE. HARTOLDMONOQ43553 3 4 92 1 AT THESE JUNCTURES WE HAVE WHAT ARE 2 CALLED CARBONS. ATTACHED TO THESE CARBONS ARE 3 HYDROGENS. 4 Q NOW YOU ARE DRAWING JUST THE BIPHENYL; IS 5 THAT RIGHT? 6 A THAT'S CORRECT. 7 Q NOW IS THE BIPHENYL BY ITSELF, WITHOUT 8 ANY CHLORINATION, COMMONLY FOUND IN OUR WORLD? 9 A BIPHENYL ITSELF, WITHOUT ANY CHLORINES 10 ADDED TO IT IS A NATURALLY OCCURRING CONSTITUENT IN 11 THE ENVIRONMENT, PRESENT IN ALMOST ANY KINDS OF 12 HYDROCARBONS AROUND AND IT'S JUST VERY COMMON IN 13 PLANTS AND COMMON IN OTHER KINDS OF HYDROCARBONS LIKE 14 PETROLEUM-BASED THINGS. 15 SO IT'S A NATURALLY OCCURRING 16 CONSTITUENT. 17 IN FACT, IF YOU PUT YOUR HAND HERE, COVER 18 THE OTHER HALF, THIS LOWER HALF IS LIKE BENZENE. I'M 19 SURE YOU HAVE HEARD ABOUT BENZENE. THEY ARE AROMATIC 20 HYDROCARBONS. 2 1 AT ANY RATE, WE WOULD SAY THAT THIS IS A 2 2 C-12, H-10, THAT THERE ARE 12 CARBONS AND 10 2 3 HYDROGENS ON THIS STRUCTURE. 24 Q OKAY. LET ME STOP YOU THERE. 2 5 WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS THAT IF WE ADD UP 2 6 ALL THE CARBONS THAT YOU PUT THE C'S THERE, WE WOULD 27 COME UP WITH 12 AND THE SAME WITH RESPECT TO 2 8 HYDROGEN? HARTOLDMONOQ43554 3493 1 A THAT'S RIGHT, ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR, 2 FIVE, SIX, AND YOU WOULD JUST DOUBLE IT. 3 SO THERE ARE 12 CHLORINES AND 10 4 HYDROGENS. 5 THAT IS THE BASIS FOR BIPHENYL AND THAT 6 IS THE BASIS FOR THE STARTING POINT, ONE OF THE RAW 7 MATERIALS, ACTUALLY, FOR MANUFACTURING 8 POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS. 9 WHAT IS DONE NEXT IS YOU SIMPLY, THIS IS 10 A LITTLE BIT SIMPLIFIED, YOU TAKE CHLORINE AND CL IS 11 THE SYMBOL US CHEMISTS USE FOR CHLORINE. 12 YOU WOULD KNOW CHLORINE AS SOMETHING THAT 13 GOES INTO YOUR WATER TO KEEP DID BACTERIA FROM 14 GROWING, SOMETHING THAT YOU PUT IN YOUR POOL TO 15 SUPPRESS ALGAE AND TO KEEP IT CLEAN, THINGS OF THAT 16 SORT . 17 YOU TAKE CHLORINE AND YOU COMBINE IT WITH 18 THE BIPHENYL AND YOU REPLACE -- YOU INITIALLY START 19 BY REPLACING ONE OF THESE HYDROGENS WITH ONE OF THESE 20 CHLORINES. 2 1 SO YOU ADD A CHLORINE TO IT AND YOU LOSE 22 A HYDROGEN AND ANOTHER CHLORINE. 2 3 I INDICATED THERE WERE TWO CHLORINES HERE 2 4 BY THIS SUBSCRIPT. 2 5 ONCE YOU PUT A CHLORINE HERE, THEN YOU 26 HAVE WHAT IS CALLED MONOCHLORAL BIPHENYL. 27 "MONO" MEANS YOU HAVE SUBSTITUTED ONE OF 28 THE HYDROGENS WITH A CHLORINE. HARTOLDMON0043555 3 494 1 THIS PROCESS GOES ON SUCH THAT WHEN YOU 2 PUT ANOTHER CHLORINE ON THERE AND SUBTRACT ANOTHER 3 HYDROGEN YOU HAVE WHAT IS CALLED A DICLORO BIPHENYL 4 AND SO ON. 5 YOU CAN ACTUAL HAVE A TRI, A TETRA, A 6 PENTA, "PENTA" BEING FIVE, HEXA, OCTA, NONA, DECA. 7 "DECA" MEANS 10 AND, OF COURSE, THAT 8 WOULD MEAN THAT EVERY HYDROGEN ON THIS HAS BEEN 9 REPLACED WITH A CHLORINE. 10 WHAT IT INDEED SAYS IS THAT YOU CAN HAVE 11 10 DIFFERENT HOMOLOGS. 12 YOU CAN HAVE BIPHENYLS, A MONOCHLORO 13 BIPHENYL, A DICLORO, ET CETERA, UP. TO 10. 14 SO THERE ARE 10 DIFFERENT BASIC 15 CONSTITUENTS THAT CAN BE IN A MATERIAL CALLED A 16 POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYL. 17 THE SITUATION, UNFORTUNATELY, IS NOT 18 REALLY EVEN THAT SIMPLE. 19 AND LET ME DEMONSTRATE WHY I SAY THAT. 2 0 LET'S TAKE THE SIMPLEST CASE WHERE WE 2 1 HAVE A STRUCTURE THAT IS C-12, H-9, AND ONE CHLORINE. 22 IN OTHER WORDS, AS YOU REMEMBER BEFORE, 2 3 IT WAS C-12, H-10 AND NOW I HAVE TAKEN AWAY ONE OF 2 4 THE HYDROGENS AND PUT A CHLORINE IN SO I HAVE WHAT IS 2 5 CALLED A MONOCHLORO BIPHENYL WHICH IS ONE OF THE 2 6 HOMOLOGS. 27 Q YOU MENTIONED THE TERM ''HOMOLOG." 2 8 A RIGHT. HARTOLDMONOQ43556 34 9 5 1 Q TELL US WHAT THAT IS. 2 A HOMOLOG IS JUST ANY OF THE SERIES THAT 3 HAVE THE BASIC BIPHENYL STRUCTURE WITH ONE OR MORE 4 CHLORINES ON IT. 5 THEY ARE ALL RELATED TO EACH OTHER 6 BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE SAME BASIC STRUCTURE. 7 WITHIN THE MONOCHLORO BIPHENYL, BECAUSE 8 YOU HAVE 12 DIFFERENT POSITIONS, SIX DIFFERENT 9 POSITIONS HERE AND SIX DIFFERENT POSITIONS HERE, 10 THESE ARE POSITIONS. 11 I APOLOGIZE FOR SOME OF MY ARTISTIC 12 INEPTNESS, BUT WHEN YOU PUT A CHLORINE ON THERE YOU 13 CAN PUT -- THE CHLORINE CAN GO HERE, IT CAN GO HERE 14 OR IT CAN GO HERE. 15 AND IT COULD GO IN EQUIVALENT POSITIONS 16 IN THESE OTHER RINGS SO THEY ARE JUST MIRROR IMAGES 17 SO THEY ARE THE SAME. 18 WHAT ENDS UP BY PUTTING ONE CHLORINE ON 19 THE BIPHENYL YOU NOW HAVE WHAT IS CALLED THREE 20 ISOMERS. 21 SO THERE ARE THREE DIFFERENT MONOCHLORO 22 BIPHENYLS THAT ARE IN THE PRODUCT. 23 THAT SITUATION EVEN GETS MORE COMPLEX 24 BECAUSE AS YOU PUT TWO ON IT, YOU NOW HAVE THEM IN 2 5 ANY ONE OF THREE POSITIONS UP HERE PLUS THERE CAN BE 2 6 ONE IN EACH RING. 27 YOU END UP ON THE NEXT LEVEL. 28 YOU START OFF WITH ONE FOR BIPHENYL, HARTOLDMONOQ43557 34 97 1 AND IN BETWEEN YOU START OUT WITH THREE, 2 12 AND IT GOES UP AND THE NUMBER OF POTENTIAL 3 DIFFERENT KINDS OF MOLECULES PEAKS AT FIVE AND THEN 4 IT DECREASES DOWN AS YOU FILL THE RINGS. 5 THERE ARE GOOD RULES IN THE AREA OF 6 CHEMISTRY, ORGANIC CHEMISTRY, THAT DESCRIBE THESE 7 THINGS. 8 THOSE ARE THINGS AGREED TO BY ALL 9 SCIENTISTS AND THAT HAVE BEEN PROVEN OVER THE LAST 10 HUNDREDS OF YEARS. 11 SO IT'S NOT LIKE IT'S JUST DREAMT UP IN 12 SOMEBODY'S HEAD. 13 Q IF YOU ADD THE COMBINATIONS UP THAT YOU 14 HAVE DISCUSSED, HOW MANY DIFFERENT PCB'S ARE THERE, 15 IF YOU WILL? 16 A OKAY. " BI PHENYL11 IS NOT A PCB BECAUSE IT 17 DOESN'T CONTAIN CHLORINE. 18 SO TAKING THAT AWAY, YOU END UP WITH 209 19 ISOMERS THAT CONTAIN CHLORINE. 2 0 Q SO THERE ARE 209 DIFFERENT FACES, IF YOU 21 WILL, FOR PCB'S OR POTENTIALLY? 2 2 A THAT'S CORRECT. 23 IN ADDITION TO THAT, IT GETS EVEN MORE 2 4 COMPLICATED, UNFORTUNATELY, IN THE SENSE THAT THERE 2 5 ARE DIFFERING AMOUNTS OF EACH ONE OF THESE. 2 6 AND THE AMOUNT THAT -- THE AMOUNT -- THE 27 TIME THAT YOU CARRY ON THE REACTION DICTATES THE 2 8 DIFFERENT AMOUNTS OF THINGS. HARTOLDMONOQ43559 3 498 X SO IT'S A VERY COMPLEX SITUATION. 2 Q ALL RIGHT. AND IS THERE A RELATIONSHIP 3 BETWEEN THE WEIGHT OF A PARTICULAR PCB AND THE NUMBER 4 OF CHLORINES THAT MAY BE ON THAT PCB? 5 A YES . 6 A CARBON IS ASSIGNED IN A VALUE OF 21 7 ATOMIC MASS UNITS. THAT'S ITS WEIGHT. JUST LIKE MY 8 WEIGHT, I WOULD LIKE TO ATTEST ABOUT 165. 9 ITS WEIGHT IS 12. 10 A HYDROGEN'S WEIGHT IS ONE AND A 11 CHLORINE'S WEIGHT IS 35. 12 AND SO IF YOU HAVE 12 CARBONS IN A RING, 13 YOU HAVE 12 TIMES 12 AND SO THAT IS 144. 14 PERHAPS WE SHOULD GET A PIECE OF PAPER. 15 OKAY. AS I SAID, THIS IS C-12, H-10. 16 THAT IS WITH NO CHLORINES ON IT, OKAY? 17 AND AS WE SAID, A CARBON IS EQUAL TO 12. 18 A HYDROGEN IS EQUAL TO ONE, AND THEN AS WE WILL SEE, 19 A CHLORINE IS EQUAL TO 35. 2 0 SO 12 TIMES 12 IS 144 AND 10 TIMES ONE IS 2 1 10 . 2 2 SO THE MOLECULAR WEIGHT OR THE ATOMIC 2 3 WEIGHT OF A BIPHENYL MOLECULE IS 154, OKAY? 24 SO MONOCHLORO YOU WOULD TAKE AWAY ONE 2 5 HYDROGEN, BECAUSE YOU WILL TAKE A HYDROGEN OFF AND 2 6 PUT A CHLORINE ON. 2 7 SO YOU WIND UP WITH 153 AND THEN YOU ADD 28 35 TO IT. HARTOLDMON0043560 3 500 1 THAT THEY WERE FINDING IN THE ENVIRONMENTAL SAMPLES 2 CONTAINED SIX OR MORE CHLORINES PER BIPHENYL 3 MOLECULE. 4 Q OKAY. NOW, WHAT IS AN AROCLOR, 5 DR. TUCKER? 6 A AN AROCLOR IS BASICALLY A POLYCHLORINATED 7 BIPHENYL. 8 AROCLOR IS A TRADE NAME THAT MONSANTO 9 CALLED "POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS," A PRODUCT NAME, 10 BASICALLY. 11 Q DID'IT HAVE ONE OR MORE PCB TYPES IN IT? 12 A CORRECT. 13 THERE WERE A NUMBER OF AROCLORS 14 MANUFACTURED AND AROCLORS WERE DESIGNATED. FOR 15 EXAMPLE, IF WE TALK ABOUT SOMETHING THAT WAS CALLED 16 AROCLOR 1242. 17 Q ALL RIGHT. LET'S TALKABOUT 1242. 18 I'M TAKING THE DIAGRAM FROM 241. 19 CAN YOU SEE IT FROM WHERE YOU ARE OR NOT? 2 0 A YES, SIR. 2 1 Q OKAY. 2 2 A IN THAT PARTICULAR DRAWINGWE HAVE SHOWN 2 3 TWO OF THE AROCLORS. 24 THERE IS AROCLOR 1221 AND AROCLOR 1242. 2 5 THE 1200, THE FIRST TWO NUMBERS IN THE 2 6 1221 AND THE 1242 REFER TO THE FACT THAT IT WAS A 27 BIPHENYL PRODUCT AND THAT IT WAS OF THAT SERIES. 2 8 THE 21, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE FIRST COLUMN HARTOLDMON0043562 3 50 1 1 WHERE IT SAYS AROCLOR 1221 REFERS TO THE FACT THAT 2 IT'S A 21-PERCENT CHLORINE BY WEIGHT, BIPHENYL, 3 AROCLOR. 4 IN THE 1242 COLUMN, WHICH IS THE ONE JUST 5 BEFORE THE END ON THE RIGHT, YOU SEE 1242. 6 IT SAYS IT'S 42 PERCENT CHLORINATED. 7 NOW, IF YOU GO BACK AND CALCULATE IT, 8 WHAT YOU WILL FIND OUT IS THAT 1242, OF COURSE, 9 CORRESPONDS TO A TRICLORO BIPHENYL AND 1221 I BELIEVE 10 OCCURS TO A MONOCHLORO BIPHENYL. 11 IF YOU WERE TO CALCULATE, TAKE THE AMOUNT 12 OF CHLORINE AND THE AMOUNT OF CARBON AND HYDROGEN AND 13 PUT IT OVER AND CALCULATE IT OUT, YOU WOULD FIND THAT 14 IT WOULD COME OUT TO 21 PERCENT FOR AROCLOR THE 12 15 PERCENT MONOCHLORS AND 42 PERCENT FOR THE 16 TRICHLOROES. 17 Q HERE YOU CAN'T SEE IT TOO WELL, BUT 18 IT'S -- THOSE ARE -- THERE IS A LIST THERE OF 19 HOMOLOGS. 20 AGAIN, THAT REFERENCED WHAT WE WERE JUST 2 1 DRAWING, CORRECT? 22 A RIGHT, THE NUMBERS ON THE LEFT, THE 2 3 VERTICAL COLUMN ON THE LEFT GO FROM ZERO TO 80. 24 AND THOSE ARE BASICALLY THE HOMOLOGS I 2 5 TALKED ABOUT. 26 ZERO IS A BIPHENYL. ONE IS A MONOCHLORO 27 BIPHENYL. 28 TWO, DI, UPWARDS TO THE EIGHT WHICH IS HARTOLDMONOQ43563 3 502 1 OCTA. 2 Q SO THREE WOULD HAVE THREE CHLORINES ON 3 IT? 4 A RIGHT. 5 Q AND THEN YOU GO OVER TO 1242 HERE AND IT 6 HAS 16 ON THE TWO CHLORINE RINGS. 7 NOW, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN, 16? 8 A THE WAY THE PRODUCTS ARE MANUFACTURED IS 9 THAT YOU TAKE BIPHENYL AND THEN YOU PUT CHLORINE IN 10 WITH THE BIPHENYL. 11 SO THE FIRST THING THAT HAPPENS IS THAT 12 YOU FORM A MONO CHLORO BIPHENYL AND THEN YOU FORM IN 13 DIACHLOR AND TRI AND TETRA AND ALL THE ISOMERS. 14 AT SOME POINT IN TIME IF YOU WANTED A 15 21-PERCENT CHLORINATED BIPHENYL, YOU WOULD STOP THE 16 REACTION BY WITHDRAWING THE CHLORINE, NOT PUTTING 17 ANYMORE IN. 18 NOW, WHAT THAT MEANS IS THAT IF YOU LOOK 19 AT THE COLUMN, ON THE LEFT IS THE HOMOLOGS ZERO 2 0 THROUGH EIGHT, AND THEN YOU LOOK IN THE COLUMN UNDER 2 1 AROCLOR 1242, YOU WILL SEE THAT WHEN YOU ACTUALLY 22 ANALYZE THE PRODUCT, THAT IT CONTAINS LESS THAN A 2 3 TENTH OF A PERCENT OF BIPHENYL, 1 PERCENT MONOCHLORO 24 BIPHENYLS, 16 PERCENT DICLORO BIPHENYLS AND 49 25 PERCENT TRICHLORO BIPHENYLS AND SO ON, SUCH THAT IT, 2 6 THE DOMINANT ISOMER OR HOMOLOG PRESENT IN 1242 WOULD 27 BE THE TRICHLORO BIPHENYL. 28 THE REASON YOU DON'T GET PER TRICHLORO HARTOLDMONOQ43564 3 503 1 BIPHENYL IS THE WAY THE REACTION IS RUN AND THE 2 CHEMISTRY INVOLVED WITH THOSE KINDS OF THINGS. 3 Q ALL RIGHT. HAVING GOTTEN YOUR 4 ASSIGNMENT, SIR, TO BEGIN TO FIND OUT WHAT WAS 5 HAPPENING IN SWEDEN, WHAT EQUIPMENT WAS AVAILABLE TO 6 YOU AT THE TIME TO BEGIN THAT ASSIGNMENT AT MONSANTO? 7 A OKAY. 8 MONSANTO HAD, AT THAT TIME, A GROUP THAT 9 DID GAS CHROMATOGRAPHY. 10 THERE WERE GAS CHROMATOGRAPHS AVAILABLE. 11 THE TYPE OF GAS CHROMATOGRAPHY THAT 12 MONSANTO DID AT THAT TIME WOULD BE CONSIDERED MACRO, 13 IN OTHER WORDS IT WAS MAINLY INTERESTED IN 14 DETERMINING PERCENT LEVEL OR ABOVE CONSTITUENTS AND 15 PRODUCTS AND THAT KIND OF THING, NOT ENVIRONMENTAL 16 REAL LOW LEVELS. 17 BUT THEY DID HAVE GAS CHROMATOGRAPHS 18 WHICH WERE THE COMMON KIND OF INSTRUMENT THAT COULD 19 BE USED FOR EITHER APPLICATION. 2 0 ALSO, WHEN I LOOKED INTO IT I FOUND OUT 2 1 THAT THERE WAS AN ELECTRON CAPTURE DETECTOR 22 AVAILABLE. 23 NOW, AN ELECTRON CAPTURE DETECTOR IS A 24 VERY SPECIAL KIND OF DETECTOR THAT YOU PUT AT THE END 25 OF THIS GAS CHROMATOGRAPH. 26 I WILL TRY TO EXPLAIN HOW THAT WORKS, IF 27 YOU WOULD LIKE ME TO. 28 THE COURT: SIR, SLOW DOWN. HARTOLDMONOQ43565 3 504 1 THE WITNESS: THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I KNEW I 2 WOULD DO IT. 3 Q BY MR. PREUSS: DO YOU WANT TO START WITH 4 A DIAGRAM CALLED THE "BLACK BOX"? 5 A SURE. 6 THE FIRST THING I ACTUALLY DID WAS 7 REVIEWED THE LITERATURE AVAILABLE. S I THINK THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN A GRAND 9 TOTAL OF ONE ARTICLE OR A COUPLE OF ARTICLES 10 AVAILABLE THAT DESCRIBED WHAT THESE SCIENTISTS DID 11 AND WHAT EQUIPMENT THEY USED. 12 AND I LOOKED AT THAT AND I LOOKED AT THE 13 AVAILABILITY OF THAT EQUIPMENT IN .THE UNITED STATES 14 AND ALSO THE AVAILABILITY OF THAT EQUIPMENT TO ME AT 15 MONSANTO AND BEGAN TO ASSEMBLE THE KINDS OF THINGS IN 16 MY HEAD, AT LEAST, AND IN PAPER, WHAT I WOULD NEED TO 17 REPRODUCE THESE THINGS AND TO BEGIN TO DO IT. 18 AS YOU ASKED ME TO POINT OUT, WE DID HAVE 19 GAS CHROMATOGRAPHS SO WE HAD THAT AND WE DID HAVE A 2 0 DETECTOR, AS I INDICATED EARLIER, THAT IS AN ELECTRON 2 1 CAPTURE DETECTOR WHICH IS A VERY SPECIFIC KIND OF 22 DETECTOR THAT IS GOOD FOR DETECTING CHLORINATED 23 HYDROCARBONS WHICH PESTICIDES AND PCB'S ARE. 24 Q RIGHT. 2 5 NOW, DR. TUCKER, WHAT TYPE OF EQUIPMENT 2 6 DID YOU LEARN THAT DRS. JENSEN AND WIDMARK HAD USED 27 TO REPORT THEIR FINDINGS OR OBTAIN THEIR FINDINGS 28 WHICH THEY REPORTED? HARTOLDMONOQ43566 3506 1 THE SAND OR THE SOLID SUPPORT THAT YOU 2 PUT IN THERE, BEFORE YOU PUT IT IN THERE, YOU COAT IT 3 WITH WHAT IS CALLED THE LIQUID PHASE. 4 SO THE PARTICLES THAT ARE IN THIS ARE 5 COATED WITH A LIQUID PHASE. 6 Q YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE INSIDE DIAMETER 7 OF THE COLUMN? 8 A THE PACKING THAT IS IN THE COLUMN, YES, 9 SIR. 10 Q OKAY. 11 A AND WHAT IT DOES IS, IT PUTS THE THING 12 THAT IS GOING TO DO WHAT WE CALL THE SEPARATION ON A 13 HIGH SURFACE AREA SO YOU CAN PERFORM GAS 14 CHROMATOGRAPHY, GAS LIQUID CHROMATOGRAPHY. 15 ONCE YOU PUT THE SAND IN HERE THAT HAS 16 BEEN TOTALLY COATED WITH THIS LIQUID AND PUT IT IN 17 HERE, YOU PACK IT IN, THIS BECOMES WHAT IS CALLED AN 18 INLET. 19 AND THEN, THIS, OF COURSE, IS THE EXIT. 20 AND ON THIS EXIT YOU CONNECT THIS TO A 21 DEVICE THAT CAN DETECT WHAT YOU PUT ON THE FRONT HERE 22 AND WHAT COMES OUT THE OTHER END, OKAY? 2 3 THE PCB, AFTER YOU GET IT INTO THE 24 APPROPRIATE SOLUTION OR WHATEVER YOU CALL IT, CAN BE 2 5 INJECTED ON THE FRONT END OF THIS. 26 NOW, ALSO I FORGOT TO MENTION THAT THERE 27 IS A THING CALLED THE CARRIER GAS THAT IS FLOWING 28 THROUGH HERE AT ALL TIMES. HARTOLDMON0043568 3 507 1 IT'S LIKE HELIUM AND IT'S UNDER HIGH 2 PRESSURE, 30, 40, 50 POUNDS PER SQUARE INCH AND IT 3 FLOWS THROUGH HERE AT A RATE OF, SAY, 30 TO 50 4 MILLION PER MINUTE. 5 SO YOU HAVE GAS CONTINUOUSLY SWEEPING 6 THROUGH THIS AND THEN YOU HAVE THIS OVEN THAT HEATS 7 IT UP TO A HOT TEMPERATURE, OKAY? 8 THAT IS A GAS CHROMATOGRAPH. 9 THE OBJECTIVE, OF COURSE IS TO TAKE THE 10 PCB'S, INJECT THEM INTO THE GAS CHROMATOGRAPH, 11 VAPORIZE THEM INTO A GAS AND THEN PASS THIS GAS 12 THROUGH THIS COLUMN AND WHEN IT GOES THROUGH THIS 13 COLUMN THE PCB'S, BECAUSE OF THEIR CHEMICAL 14 CHARACTERISTICS, MONOS OR DIFFERENT ENTRIES, THINGS 15 OF THAT SORT, ARE HELD UP BY THIS LIQUID PHASE, SUCH 16 THAT INSTEAD OF COMING OFF AS ONE BIG LUMP IT COMES 17 OFF AS DISCREET PEAKS THAT HAVE TAKEN DIFFERENT TIMES 18 TO TRAVEL THROUGH THIS SEPARATION. 19 Q WHEN YOU SAY "PEAKS," THEY ARE COMING OUT 2 0 ON A GRAPH OF SOME SORT? 2 1 A YOU ARE COMING ALONG. 2 2 THERE IS NOTHING THERE. 2 3 THEN SUDDENLY SOME OF THE MOLECULES COME 24 OUT, THEN MORE AND MORE AND MORE AND YOU REACH A PEAK 2 5 AND THE POPULATION DECREASES AND THEN SOME MORE OF 26 THIS OTHER KIND COMES OUT AND LIKE THAT. 27 IT'S LIKE THEY COME OUT AND OUT. 28 SO THEY ARE JUST DRIVING THROUGH HERE AND HARTOLDMONOQ43569 3 508 1 COMING OUT THE OTHER END. 2 THIS DETECTOR, IT'S AN ELECTRON CAPTURE 3 DETECTOR, IS A WAY OF SEEING THESE PEAKS. 4 THE UNIQUE THING ABOUT THE ELECTRONIC 5 CAPTURE DETECTOR IT ONLY SEES CHLORINATED 6 HYDROCARBONS, PESTICIDES OR PCB'S THAT HAVE CHLORINE 7 IN THEM. 8 Q WHEN YOU STARTED WAS THE ELECTRON CAPTURE 9 DETECTOR PART OF THE EXISTING GAS CHROMATOGRAPH? 10 A IT REALLY HADN'T BEEN INSTALLED. 11 IT HAD BEEN PURCHASED BECAUSE PEOPLE FELT 12 THAT THEY SHOULD KIND OF HAVE ONE OF THEM. 13 ANALYTICAL CHEMISTS ARE LIKE PLUMBERS, 14 THEY LIKE TO HAVE ONE OF EACH OF THE KIND OF WRENCHES 15 THEY MIGHT NEED. THEY BUY A WRENCH AND DON'T USE IT 16 FOR A PERIOD OF TIME BUT WOULD YOU LIKE TO HAVE IT. 17 IT WAS THAT KIND OF SITUATION. 18 HERE CAME A SITUATION WHERE WE NEEDED TO 19 USE IT AND IT WAS VERY FORTUNATE WE HAD IT. 20 WE PUT IT TOGETHER AND DID PRELIMINARY 2 1 INVESTIGATION TO GET STARTED ON THE PROGRAM AS SOON 22 AS POSSIBLE WITH THAT INSTRUMENT, EVEN THOUGH IT 2 3 WASN'T EXACTLY EQUIVALENT TO WHAT THE PESTICIDE THE 2 4 ANALYTICAL CHEMIST USED. 25 Q NOW, DID DRS. WIDMARK AND JENSEN ALSO USE 26 A DEVICE KNOWN AS A MASS SPECTROMETER? 27 A CORRECT. 2 8 UP UNTIL -- HARTOLDMON0043570 3 509 1 Q DID MONSANTO HAVE ONE OF THOSE? 2 A NO, WE DID NOT. WE DID NOT. 3 AND UP UNTIL THAT POINT IN TIME MASS 4 SPECTROMETERS WERE NOT VERY COMMON INSTRUMENTS. 5 AND THEY WERE CERTAINLY NOT USED AS GAS 6 CHROMATOGRAPH DETECTORS. 7 THEY WERE USED IN A VERY DIFFERENT 8 FASHION, ALMOST EACH ONE WAS HAND BUILT AND THEY COST 9 UPWARDS OF $250,000. 10 SO YOU HAD TO HAVE REAL GOOD REASONS FOR 11 WANTING TO HAVE ONE. 12 Q 250,000 IN THOSE DAYS? 13 A YES. YES. 14 THEY USED THE ELECTRON CAPTURE DETECTORS 15 AND THEY ALSO USED A MASS SPECTROMETER. 16 Q "THEY" BEING JENSEN AND WIDMARK? 17 A JENSEN AND WIDMARK, YES. 18 AT THAT POINT IN TIME THEY WERE ON THE 19 LEADING EDGE OF TECHNOLOGY. 2 0 THEY WERE ALMOST THE ONLY PEOPLE. AND I 21 SAY "ALMOST" BECAUSE I CAN'T SWEAR THAT THEY WERE THE 22 ONLY PEOPLE, ALMOST THE ONLY PEOPLE, CERTAINLY THE 2 3 ONLY PEOPLE I KNEW THAT WERE DOING GAS CHROMATOGRAPHY 24 AND USING A MASS SPECTROMETER IN CONNECTION WITH IT. 25 Q WHAT ADDITIONAL ASSISTANCE DID THE MASS 26 SPECTROMETER ADD TO THE ANALYTIC ENDEAVOR, SIR? 27 A THE MASS SPECTROMETER IS THE ONLY 28 ANALYTICAL DETECTION TECHNIQUE THAT ABSOLUTELY HARTOLDMON0043571 3511 1 THROW AWAY EVERYTHING ELSE,AND GO BETWEEN A BUNCH OF 2 THINGS HERE AND E.ND UP WITH THE PCB'S AND OTHER 3 THINGS OF INTEREST IN THIS SOLVENT SYSTEM THAT IS 4 SUITABLE FOR INTRODUCTION INTO THIS GAS 5 CHROMATOGRAPH. 6 SO THE FIRST STEP, IN ADDITION TO SETTING 7 UP THIS INSTRUMENT WHICH WOULD ALLOW US TO SEE WHAT 8 WE ARE DOING, WAS TO THEN BEGIN TO DESIGN, YOU KNOW, 9 TECHNIQUES THAT WOULD ALLOW US TO EXTRACT PCB'S FROM 10 WATER, FROM AIR, FROM THE ISSUES, FROM SLUDGES, FROM 11 SEDIMENTS, FROM ALL KINDS OF SAMPLES AND ULTIMATELY 12 GET IT INTO A FORMAT THAT WE CAN PUT IT INTO THIS 13 INSTRUMENT AND SEE IF IT WAS THERE AND HOW MUCH WAS 14 THERE. 15 THE FIRST STEP IN THAT KIND OF PROCEDURE 16 IS HERE IS YOUR SAMPLE WHI CH , AS I SAID, COULD BE 17 DIRT, IT COULD BE HAIR , IT COULD BE FAT, IT COULD BE 18 MUSCLE, IT COULD BE A FISH. IT COULD BE, YOU KNOW, 19 ANY OF THOSE KINDS OF THINGS. 2 0 IS TO TAKE THIS SAMPLE AND EXTRACT IT AND 2 1 SEPARATE WHAT YOUR INTERESTED IN, IN THIS CASE WE 2 2 WERE INTERESTED IN PCB'S, FROM THE BULK OF THE 2 3 SAMPLE. 24 AND THIS PARTICULAR STEP IS USUALLY 2 5 INVOLVES TAKING A SOLVENT EXTRACTION, MIXING THE SOIL 2 6 WITH IT OR A SOLVENT THAT IS NOT MIXABLE WITH THE 27 WATER, SHAKING IT AND THEN SHAKING THE TWO OR, IF YOU 2 8 ARE LOOKING AT -- ROCKS, YOU WOULD MIX IT WITH THIS HARTOLDMON0043573 3 513 1 TECHNIQUES THAT I WILL REFER TO AS MACRO SEPARATION 2 AND YOU MIGHT DO THINGS LIKE TREAT IT WITH ACID AND 3 ANY COMPOUNDS THAT WERE -- REACTED WITH THE ACID 4 WOULD DISAPPEAR, WHEREAS YOU KNOW, PCB'S DON'T REACT 5 WITH THE ACIDS SO THEY WOULD STAY THERE. 6 YOU MIGHT TREAT IT WITH BASE. 7 YOU MIGHT RUN IT THROUGH ANOTHER KIND OF 8 CHROMATOGRAPHIC MEDIA THAT WOULD THROW AWAY SOME 9 OTHER CONSTITUENTS YOU WEREN'T INTERESTED IN, FOR 10 EXAMPLE FATS, HUMIC ACID, THINGS NORMALLY PRESENT IN 11 ENVIRONMENTAL SAMPLES. 12 THE WHOLE THING IS THESE ARE CALLED 13 CLEAN-UP. 14 Q WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH WITH 15 THE CLEAN-UP OF THE EXTRACTS? 16 A IT'S KIND OF LIKE A PYRAMID, YOU KNOW? 17 WE DON'T WANT THE JUNK. IT MAY BE 18 SOMEBODY ELSE'S GOOD JUNK BUT IT'S JUNK. 19 SO WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO IS THROW AWAY 2 0 ALL THE THINGS THAT WE DON'T WANT AND ONLY GET WHAT 2 1 WE WANT. 22 THE REASON FOR THAT IS THAT IF YOU HAVE A 23 LOT OF OTHER CONSTITUENTS IN THERE THAT HAVE SIMILAR 24 PROPERTIES TO WHAT WE ARE LOOKING FOR, THOSE 2 5 DETECTION SYSTEMS WILL SEE THOSE TWO AND THEY WILL 2 6 CONFUSE YOU. 27 THE OBJECTIVE IS TO BE AS UNCONFUSED AS 2 8 POSSIBLE WHEN YOU SAY SOMETHING IS THERE AND HOW MUCH HARTOLDMON0043575 3 5 15 1 AFTER THE CONCENTRATION STEP THAT IS WHEN 2 YOU ARE FINALLY READY TO INJECT IT INTO THIS 3 INSTRUMENT AND PERFORM, REMEMBER I SAID THIS IS KIND 4 OF LIKE A MACRO SEPARATION, HERE YOU PERFORM A 5 MOLECULAR SEPARATION, 6 HERE YOU BEGIN TO SORT CLASSES OF 7 COMPOUNDS FROM EACH OTHER AND MOLECULES FROM EACH 8 OTHER. 9 WITH THIS GC INSTRUMENT. 10 THEN YOU DETECT IT OVER HERE. 11 Q NOW, DO YOU HAVE TO, WHEN YOU GET 12 SOMETHING OUT AND IT HAS ALL OF THESE PEAKS, HOW DO 13 YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT? 14 A OKAY. 15 THE WAY YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT 16 WITH THESE KIND OF TECHNIQUES, THE ELECTRON CAPTURE 17 IS OF A KNOWN SAMPLE OF THE MATERIAL. 18 YOU HAVE A KNOWN POLYCHLORINATED 19 BIPHENYL, SOMETHING YOU KNOW IS POLYCHLORINATED 2 0 BIPHENYL THAT YOU MADE. 2 1 AND YOU USE THAT AS A STANDARD AGAINST 2 2 WHICH YOU MEASURE THE THINGS THAT YOU SEE. 2 3 Q WHEN YOU STARTED YOUR WORK, DID YOU KNOW 24 WHAT ALL THESE PARTICULAR PCB'S LOOKED LIKE? 2 5 A NOT EXACTLY. 2 6 SO WE HAD TO ESTABLISH WHAT THEY LOOKED 27 LIKE . 2 8 AND WHAT YOU DO, WHAT I WOULD DO AS AN HARTOLDMONOQ43577 3 516 1 ANALYTICAL CHEMIST, WHEN I START OUT DEVELOPING A 2 STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE OR METHOD FOR DETECTING 3 SOMETHING IS I TAKE KNOWN MATERIAL AND AT THIS POINT 4 I WOULD TAKE A SAMPLE THAT I KNEW DIDN'T CONTAIN 5 ANYTHING, IT MAY BE PURE SAND, AND I WOULD ADD THE 6 PC B TO IT. 7 AND THEN I WOULD RUN IT THROUGH THIS 8 WHOLE PROCEDURE AND THEN PUT THAT INTO THE INSTRUMENT 9 AND TAKE A LOOK AT IT. 10 BUT EVEN BEFORE THAT I WOULD TAKE JUST 11 THE PC B ITSELF AND DISSOLVE IT IN THE SOLVENT THAT I 12 HAVE HERE AND INJECT THAT IN AND CALIBRATE THE 13 INSTRUMENT AND YOU END UP KNOWING EXACTLY WHAT THE 14 RESPONSE OF THE INSTRUMENT IS TO THE PCB'S AND WHAT 15 THIS PEAK, WHAT THIS CURVE LOOKS LIKE WHEN IT COMES 16 OUT, SO THAT YOU CAN THEN TAKE THAT INFORMATION AND 17 LOOK AT AN UNKNOWN YOU HAVE RUN THROUGH AND MAKE A 18 DECISION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT PCB'S ARE THERE AND HOW 19 MUCH . 20 Q WHEN YOU SAY YOU WOULD DO THAT, IS THAT, 2 1 IN FACT, WHAT YOU DID WHEN YOU STARTED THE PROJECT - 22 A THAT IS CORRECT. 2 3 Q -- IN EARLY '68? 24 A THAT IS CALLED METHODS DEVELOPMENT IN OUR 2 5 ROUTINE. 2 6 THAT IS THE WAY YOU DEVELOP A METHOD FOR 27 MEASURING THINGS. 28 Q AND DID IT TAKE YOU SOME TIME, THEN, TO HARTOLDMON0043578 3 5 18 1 I F WE CAN SAVE TIME, TIME IS MONEY. 2 IF WE CAN SAVE TIME BY USING OTHER 3 PEOPLE'S APPROACHES, THINGS WE HAVE ALREADY 4 DISCOVERED, WE DO THAT. 5 SO I REVIEWED SOREN JENSEN'S WORK AND 6 LOOKED AT THE ISOLATION EXTRACTION, CLEAN-UP 7 PROCEDURES THAT THEY EMPLOYED. 8 AND THEN BEGAN TO SET THOSE UP IN OUR 9 LABORATORIES. 10 THE FIRST THING YOU DO, OF COURSE, IS TO 11 GET SOME STANDARDS AND THAT WAS VERY EASY FOR US 12 SINCE WE MANUFACTURED THE MATERIAL. 13 Q SO WOULD YOU TAKE SOME 1242, FOR EXAMPLE, 14 OR WHAT HAVE YOU? 15 A YES . 16 IN ACTUALITY WHAT I DID WAS I HAD LARGE 17 QUANTITIES OF EACH OF THE AROCLORS WE MANUFACTURED, 18 SPECIFICALLY DRUMMED FOR ME WITH ALL OF THE CHAIN OF 19 CUSTODY AND EVERYTHING ASSOCIATED WITH IT SO WE WOULD 2 0 ALWAYS BE DEALING WITH THOSE AND WE WOULD HAVE A GOOD 2 1 BENCHMARK AS TO WHERE WE CAME FROM. 22 THAT IS ANOTHER STANDARD OF PRACTICE FOR 2 3 STANDARDS. , 2 4 STANDARDS ARE VERY IMPORTANT IN THE 2 5 BUSINESS. 26 AND THEN WE USED THOSE MATERIALS, THEN, 27 TO DEVELOP THE TECHNIQUES. 28 Q ABOUT HOW LONG DID IT TAKE YOU TO GET THE HARTOLDMON0043580 3 5 19 1 MACHINE ITSELF SETUP, THE EXISTING MACHINE WITH THE 2 EXISTING ELECTRON CAPTURE DEVICE? 3 A PROBABLY ON THE ORDER OF SEVERAL WEEKS. 4 Q AND THEN YOU WENT ABOUT ESTABLISHING YOUR 5 SAMPLES OR YOUR STANDARDS? 6 A CORRECT. 7 Q FROM NON-SAMPLES? 8 A CORRECT. 9 YOU TAKE THE NEAT PURE AROCLORS AND PLACE 10 THEM OUT IN A POT. 11 ADD A MEASURED AMOUNT OF SOLVENT TO THAT 12 AND THEN RUN SERIAL DILUTIONS OF THAT TO GET THE PURE 13 CONSTITUENT DOWN TO THE POINT WHERE IT WAS AT THE 14 PART-PER-TRILLION LEVEL IN THAT SOLUTION. 15 THEN WE TAKE THE PART-PER-TRILLION 16 STANDARDS AND INJECT THEM IN THE INSTRUMENT AND SEE 17 WHAT CAME OUT THE OTHER SIDE. 18 WHAT WOULD COME OUT THE OTHER SIDE IS 19 CALLED A GAS CHROMATOGRAM. 20 WHAT THIS IS IS A RESPONSE, I WILL PLOT 2 1 THIS AS A GRAPH. 22 YOU HAVE RESPONSE HERE AND THEN YOU HAVE 2 3 TIME HERE. 24 SO AS THE THINGS WENT THROUGH THE GC, 25 THEY TAKE TIME TO GO THROUGH THE GC. 2 6 SOME CAME OUT EARLIER THAN OTHERS. 27 YOU END UP WITH WHAT IS CALLED A 28 CHROMATOGRAM WHICH WOULD LOOK LIKE THAT. HARTOLDMONOQ43581 3 52 0 1 AS I SAID, IT TAKES THE PCB WHICH IS ONE 2 AND SEPARATES IT INTO A LOT OF CONSTITUENTS. 3 SO YOU GET THIS OUT. 4 YOU DO ALL OF THIS IN A RE PRODUCEABLE 5 FASHION SO THE NEXT TIME YOU INJECTED THIS YOU GET 6 EXACTLY THE SAME THING WITHIN LIMITS. 7 IF YOU INJECTED SOMETHING ELSE, YOU DON *T 8 GET THIS. 9 IF SO, THAT IS THE WAY YOU TELL WHETHER 10 OR NOT YOU GOT WHAT YOU GOT. 11 IN ADDITION TO THAT WHAT I PUT OVER HERE, 12 THIS IS WITH TIME HERE. 13 I PUT A RESPONSE. - 14 THE AMOUNT OF RESPONSE YOU GET IS 15 RELATIVE TO THE AMOUNT OF TIME YOU PUT IN THE 16 INSTRUMENT. THAT IS THE WAY YOU ESTIMATE THE 17 CONCENTRATION. 18 IF I WOULD PUT TWICE AS MUCH OF THE 19 MATERIAL IN THE INSTRUMENT, I WOULD END UP WITH A 20 CHROMATOGRAM THAT LOOKED LIKE THIS AND SO ON. 2 1 AND EVENTUALLY YOU DID ACTUALLY, VIA 2 2 CONCENTRATION OF THEOREM OF CALIBRATION VERSUS 2 3 RESPONSE TO, USE THAT TO DETERMINE EXACTLY WHAT IS IN 2 4 THE SOLUTION. 2 5 Q HOW LONG DID IT TAKE YOU TO DETERMINE THE 2 6 STANDARDS SO YOU KNEW WHAT YOU WERE LOOKING AT WAS IN 27 FACT WHAT YOU PUT? 28 A TO BEGIN TO DO THIS KIND OF GOOD STUFF HARTOLDMON0043582 3 52 1 1 WAS A SEVERAL-WEEK ROUTINE. 2 AND THIS KIND OF THING IS, LIKE 3 RACQUETBALL IS ONE OF NY FAVORITE SPORTS. 4 IT'S KIND OF LIKE RACQUETBALL. 5 WHEN YOU FIRST START OUT PLAYING 6 RACQUETBALL YOU HAVE TO THINK THROUGH EVERY SHOT, YOU 7 ARE NOT SURE HOW IT'S GOING TO WORK SO IT'S A SLOW8 PROCESS . 9 ULTIMATELY DOWN THE ROAD, A LONG PERIOD 10 OF TIME, AS YOU PRACTICE MORE IT BECOMES AUTOMATIC 11 AND SOMETHING WHICH YOU CAN DO WITH A GREAT DEAL OF 12 CONFIDENCE AND DO QUICKLY. 13 AT THIS STAGE OF THE GAME WE WERE JUST 14 WALKING ON COURT AND WE DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO PLAY 15 RACQUETBALL VERY WELL. 16 IT TAKES A LITTLE LONGER. 17 ' IT'S AN ONGOING PROCESS. THE MORE YOU 18 PRACTICE RACQUETBALL, THE BETTER YOU GET AT IT. THAT 19 NEVER QUITS, QUITE FRANKLY, EVEN TODAY. 2 0 Q USING YOUR RACQUETBALL ANALOGY, AT THAT 2 1 POINT IN TIME WAS RACQUETBALL A SPORT WHERE YOU COULD 2 2 GRAB INSTRUCTORS ANYWHERE YOU WANTED TO? 2 3 A NO, IN ADDITION TO LEARNING HOW TO PLAY 2 4 THE GAME WE HAD TO MIX-UP SOME OF THE RULES. THAT IS 2 5 WHAT RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT WAS ALL ABOUT. THAT IS 26 WHAT WE WERE IN. 27 WE HAD TO LEARN HOW BEST TO DO IT. 2 8 THE COURT: EXCUSE ME, MR. PREUSS, BUT THE HARTOLDMONOQ43583 3 52 2 1 REFEREE WILL CALL A TIME OUT. 2 WE WILL TAKE THE MORNING BREAK NOW, 3 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, AND RESUME AT 11:00 O'CLOCK. 4 PLEASE RETURN AT THAT TIME. 5 (RECESS.) 6 THE COURT: AND RESUMING. 7 GO AHEAD, MR. PREUSS. 8 MR. PREUSS: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. 9 Q DR. TUCKER, WHEN WE BROKE OFF WE WERE 10 TALKING ABOUT HAVING SET UP THE EXISTING GC AND ECD 1 1 AND WORKING ON SOME KNOWN SAMPLES FROM STANDARDS SO 12 YOU COULD HAVE STANDARDS TO WORK BY. 13 DID YOU FIND THAT THE EXISTING GC YOU 14 WERE USING WAS GOING TO SATISFY YOUR NEEDS IN 15 CONDUCTING THIS INVESTIGATION? 16 A ACTUALLY, NO. 17 WHAT WE HAD DECIDED WAS THAT RATHER THAN 18 HAVE ONE OF THE MORE PROCESS TYPE GC INSTRUMENTS THAT 19 WERE USED FOR PRODUCT ANALYSIS THAT WE NEEDED TO 2 0 REALLY HAVE WHAT WAS CALLED A BIOMEDICAL TYPE GAS 2 1 CHROMATOGRAPH. 22 AND THAT WAS THE KIND OF GAS 23 CHROMATOGRAPH THAT USED VERY SPECIAL GLASS COLUMNS 24 AND HAD A SPECIAL KIND OF INJECTION PORTS TO PREVENT 2 5 BIOLOGICAL MOLECULES FROM DECOMPOSING AND CAUSING 26 PROBLEMS. 27 WE FELT SINCE THAT WAS THE STATE OF THE 2 8 ART, WHICH WASN'T VERY FAR ALONG, ACTUALLY, IT WAS HARTOLDMON0043584 352 3 1 THE STATE OF THE ART, THAT WE SHOULD HAVE AS CLOSE TO 2 WHAT EVERYBODY WAS USING AS WE SHOULD IN THIS AREA. 3 SO WE HAD ORDERED ANOTHER BIOMEDICAL GAS 4 CHROMATOGRAPH EQUIPPED WITH ELECTRON CAPTURE 5 DETECTORS. 6 Q ABOUT WHEN WAS THAT DONE? 7 A THAT WAS PROBABLY DONE IN, I BELIEVE, 8 SHORTLY AFTER I GOT THE ASSIGNMENT IN 1967, THE 9 LATTER PART OF 1967. 10 Q AFTER YOU HAD SPENT SOME TIME TAKING A 11 LOOK AT THE EXISTING GC AND EC? 12 A YES . 13 IT'S NOT LIKE THERE WAS ONLY ONE 14 BIOMEDICAL GAS CHROMATOGRAPH. 15 THERE WERE A NUMBER OF MANUFACTURERS, ALL 16 THE EUROPEAN MANUFACTURERS AS WELL AS U.S. 17 MANUFACTURERS. 18 IT WAS UP TO ME WITH THE HELP OF OTHERS 19 TO MAKE SURE WE WERE GETTING THE APPROPRIATE KIND OF 2 0 EQUIPMENT AND THEN ALSO IT WAS IMPORTANT WHERE YOU 2 1 COULD BUY THINGS IN THE UNITED STATES WHERE YOU COULD 2 2 GET GOOD SERVICE AND GOOD PARTS AND JUST GOOD 2 3 EVERYTHING. , 2 4 Q AND DID IT TAKE A PERIOD OF TIME TO GET 25 THE GC ONCE YOU DECIDED ON THE ONE YOU WANTED? 2 6 A CORRECT. 27 IN GENERAL, DELIVERY TIMES QUOTED BY 2 8 MANUFACTURERS ARE SIX TO EIGHT WEEKS, AS A GENERAL HARTOLDMONOQ43585 352 4 1 RULE . 2 YOU CAN SPEED THEM UP A LITTLE BIT 3 SOMETIMES BUT SIX TO EIGHT WEEKS. 4 Q AND ONCE YOU GOT THE NEW GC WITH ELECTRON 5 CAPTURE DETECTOR, DID IT TAKE SOME TIME TO GET IT 6 SETUP? 7 A CORRECT. 8 THE INSTRUMENT WOULD HAVE TO BE SET UP. 9 YOU WOULD HAVE TO PUT THE COLUMNS IN IT. 10 Q WHEN. 11 YOU SAY "YOU WOULD HAVE TO," IS THAT WHAT 12 YOU DID, SIR? 13 A YES . 14 Q TELL US WHATYOU DID TO GET IT 15 OPERATIONAL. 1 6 A WHEN WE GOTTHE INSTRUMENT, OF COURSE, WE 17 WOULD UNPACK IT AND MAKE SURE ALL THE PARTS WERE 18 THERE, READ THE MANUALS TO MAKE SURE HOW IT WORKED 19 BECAUSE EACH ONE WAS A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT. 2 0 IT WAS LIKE MANUALS YOU GET FOR YOUR 2 1 AUTOMOBILE. 22 GENERAL MOTORS IS DIFFERENT THAN 2 3 CHRYSLER. 24 THEN YOU WOULD PUT THE COMPONENTS 2 5 TOGETHER IN THE FASHION THAT WE WERE INSTRUCTED TO DO 2 6 SO IN THE MANUALS AND IN SOME INSTANCES, I DON'T 27 REMEMBER IN THIS INSTANCE, WE WOULD ACTUALLY HAVE A 28 SERVICE TECHNICIAN FROM THE MANUFACTURER COME IN AND HARTOLDMONOQ43586 3 52 5 1 SET UP THE INSTRUMENT INITIALLY AND VERIFY TO US THAT 2 EVERYTHING WAS OPERATIONAL, THAT ALL THE PARTS ARE 3 THERE AND THAT WE HAD A FUNCTIONAL INSTRUMENT, AS WE 4 HAD PURCHASED, THEY HAD MET THEIR CONTRACT TO US 5 PROVIDING US WITH AN INSTRUMENT THAT WORKS. 6 Q I THINK YOU USED EARLIER THE TERM 7 "CALIBRATION"? 8 A CORRECT. 9 Q AND DO YOU CALIBRATE A GC? 10 A WELL, YOU HAVE TO SHOW THAT IT WORKS. 11 AND YOU HAVE TO DO THAT PERIODICALLY TO 12 MAKE SURE THAT WHENEVER YOU CHANGE THINGS, THINGS OF 13 THAT SORT. . 14 SO INITIALLY YOU WOULD GET THE INSTRUMENT 15 SET UP AND MAKE SURE IT MET MANUFACTURERS' 16 SPECIFICATIONS. 17 THEN FOR THIS PARTICULAR ANALYSIS YOU 18 WOULD PUT IN THE TYPES OF THINGS THAT WERE 19 APPROPRIATE TO THAT. 20 THERE ARE DIFFERENT KINDS OF COLUMNS. 2 1 WE HAD SPECIFIC COLUMNS WE WOULD USE. 2 2 Q WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT DIFFERENT KINDS OF 2 3 COLUMNS, AGAIN YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THAT LITTLE 24 CIRCULAR GLASS? 25 A THAT IS CORRECT. 2 6 Q INSIDE THE OVEN? 27 A THAT IS CORRECT. 28 THERE ARE DIFFERENT LIQUID PHASES. HARTOLDMON0043587 3 52 6 1 WE HAD A SPECIFIC LIQUID PHASE THAT 2 WORKED BEST FOR THESE MATERIALS OF WHAT WAS 3 AVAILABLE. 4 AND THEN YOU WOULD ESTABLISH THE 5 OPERATING CONDITIONS WHICH WE HAD ESTABLISHED WITH 6 KNOWNS AND THE OTHER INSTRUMENT IN TERMS OF 7 TEMPERATURES, GAS FLOW RATES AND ALL THE THINGS THAT 8 ARE NEEDED TO SETUP FOR THAT INSTRUMENT. 9 AT THAT POINT IN TIME YOU KNEW THE 10 INSTRUMENT WAS WORKING PRETTY WELL AND THEN YOU WOULD 11 TAKE STANDARDS AND RUN IT THROUGH THE INSTRUMENT. 12 NOW, THOSE STANDARDS WERE NOT 13 NECESSARILY, IN FACT, THEY WEREN'T PCB'S. 14 THEY WERE STANDARDS THAT THE MANUFACTURER 15 USED TO QUALIFY THEIR INSTRUMENTATION. 16 SO WE RAN THEIR STANDARDS. 17 IF IT MET THE SPECIFICATIONS, THE 18 MANUFACTURERS' SPECIFICATIONS, THEN WE HAD A PIECE OF 19 EQUIPMENT THAT THEY HAD MET THEIR CONTRACT WITH US. 2 0 AND IT WORKED. 2 1 THEN WE TOOK THE PCS STANDARDS, RAN THOSE 22 THROUGH TO SEE THAT WE HAD GOT WHAT WE HAD SCOPED OUT 23 ON THE EARLIER INSTRUMENT, IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, 24 TENSION TIMES AND THAT THE CHROMATOGRAPHS LOOKED THE 25 SAME AND THE RESPONSE WAS THE SAME. 26 WE WOULD CALIBRATE THE INSTRUMENT AND 27 THEN WE WOULD PROVE BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT THAT 28 IT WORKED CORRECTLY AND WE KNEW WHAT WE WERE DOING. HARTOLDMON0043588 3 527 1 Q AGAIN, THOSE LITTLE SQUIGGLES YOU HAVE IN 2 THE GRAPH, ARE WHAT IS REFERRED TO AS A CHROMATOGRAM? 3 A CORRECT. 4 Q YOU MENTIONED EARLIER A MASS SPEC HAD 5 BEEN ORDERED. 6 DID ONE ARRIVE? 7 A I BELIEVE A MASS SPECTROMETER ARRIVED 8 EARLY IN 1968. 9 THERE WERE OTHER PEOPLE -- I WASN'T ONLY 10 PERSON THAT WORKED ON THIS PROJECT. 11 THE KEY ELEMENTS I WORKED ON WERE THE 12 ISOLATION, THE EXTRACTION, YOU KNOW, CLEAN-UP, 13 CONCENTRATION TECHNIQUES, THINGS OF THAT SORT AND 14 THEN THE ELECTRON GAS CHROMATOGRAPHY. 15 CONCURRENTLY THERE WERE ANOTHER TEAM OF 16 FOLKS WORKING ON THE MASS SPECTROMETER AND BRINGING 17 THAT UP. 18 I WAS INTERESTED AND INVOLVED IN IT, BUT 19 I COULDN'T DO BOTH. 2 0 Q OKAY. AND IS A MASS SPEC SOMETHING YOU 2 1 CAN PICK OFF OF A SHELF OR IS THAT A SPECIALLY 2 2 ORDERED ITEM? 2 3 A NO, SIR. 2 4 EVEN TODAY THEY ARE RATHER COMMON ITEMS 2 5 TODAY. YOU CAN'T GET ONE IN LESS THAN EIGHT WEEKS. 2 6 BUT BACK THEN THEY WERE INDIVIDUALLY 27 BUILT. 2 8 THE SOURCES AND THE DETECTORS, THINGS OF HARTOLDMONOQ43589 3 52 8 1 THAT SORT, WERE ASSEMBLED BY HAND. 2 AND IT WAS A MAJOR UNDERTAKING TO PUT 3 THEM TOGETHER. 4 IN GENERAL, I WOULD SURMISE THAT 5 INSTRUMENT MANUFACTURERS PUT THEM TOGETHER WHEN THEY 6 HAD AN ORDER. 7 YOU WOULDN'T MAINTAIN A $250,000 8 INSTRUMENT AROUND. 9 SO IT TAKES -- IT WOULD TAKE A WHILE TO 10 GET THAT. 11 AND I BELIEVE IT WOULD TAKE, BACK THEN, 12 IT WAS LIKE SIX MONTHS. 1 3 AND THEN YOU HAD THE ADDITIONAL PROBLEM 14 THAT THE UNITS THAT WE WERE LOOKING AT WERE ONLY 15 AVAILABLE IN EUROPE. 16 Q WHAT STEPS WERE NECESSARY ONCE IT GOT 17 THERE TO MAKE THAT PIECE OF EQUIPMENT OPERATIONAL? 18 A ONCE THE MASS SPECTROMETER WAS RECEIVED, 19 NOW HERE THERE IS A GAS CHROMATOGRAPH INVOLVED WITH 2 0 IT. 2 1 BUT THE MASS SPECTROMETER IS A MUCH MORE 2 2 COMPLEX PIECE OF EQUIPMENT. 2 3 Q MAYBE YOU COULD DRAW THE PARALLEL TRACKS, 24 THERE, IF YOU WOULD, A GC AND ECD AS WELL AS THE MASS 2 5 SPEC FOR US. 26 A WHAT WE TALKED ABOUT EARLIER WAS A GC 27 HOOKED TO AN ELECTRON CAPTURE DETECTOR AND THE OUTPUT 28 THAT WAS WHAT WE CALL A RECORDER. HARTOLDMON0043590 3 52 9 1 Q I'M SORRY? 2 A A RECORDER. IT INVOLVES SEEING THOSE. 3 THE CHART ROLLS OUT AND IT WRITES ON THE 4 CHART. 5 THERE WAS GC INVOLVED WITH THE MASS SPEC 6 AND THEN THERE WAS A MASS SPEC OVER HERE. 7 NOW, AN ELECTRON CAPTURE DETECTOR IS LIKE 8 $2,000, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. 9 AND A MASS SPEC CAN BE ANYWHERE FROM 100 10 TO $200,000. 11 SO THERE IS A LOT OF DIFFERENCE. 12 THIS HAS A LOT MORE PARTS AND IT'S A LOT 13 MORE COMPLEX, THINGS OF THAT SORT. 14 THE GC'S ARE THE SAME, THE INITIAL 15 SEPARATION THING. 16 INTERFACING THESE TWO IS QUITE EASY. 17 THEY BOTH OPERATE UNDER SIMILAR CONDITIONS SO IT'S 18 JUST THE TWO. 19 I WILL TALK A LITTLE BIT LATER ABOUT THE 20 INTERFACE HERE, WHICH IS CONSIDERABLY DIFFERENT. 2 1 BUT AT ANY RATE YOU WOULD GET THE MASS 22 SPEC IN. 2 3 IT WOULD COME IN IN BIG CRATES IN 24 DIFFERENT PARTS. 2 5 THE FIRST THING YOU WOULD TO HAVE DO IS 2 6 OPEN IT UP. 27 WITH AN INSTRUMENT LIKE THAT WE WOULDN'T 2 8 HAVE OPENED IT UP UNTIL A SERVICE TECHNICIAN WAS HARTOLDMONOQ43591 3 53 0 1 ON-SITE TO VERIFY WITH US WE RECEIVED ALL THE PARTS 2 AND THINGS WERE BROKEN, IF THEY WERE BROKEN, THEY 3 WERE BROKEN IN TRANSIT, NOT BY US NOT KNOWING WHAT WE 4 WERE DOING TRYING TO PUT IT TOGETHER. 5 THE WHOLE THING WOULD BE ASSEMBLED AND 6 THEN THERE WOULD BE A RATHER LENGTHY CHECK-OUT 7 PROCEDURE. 8 I MEAN, YOU WOULD HAVE TO HEAT IT UP, 9 BAKE IT OUT AND EVACUATE IT BECAUSE MASS SPECS 10 OPERATE IN A VACUUM, THAT KIND OF THINGS, 11 SO IT WOULD TAKE A WHILE TO GET ONE SETUP 12 AND OPERATIONAL. 13 Q AND THE VACUUM IS WEIGHTLESSNESS, IF YOU 14 WILL? 15 A RIGHT, NO AIR. 16 AIR -- YOU CAN'T HAVE AIR IN A MASS 17 SPECTROMETER, ANY PRESSURE IN A MASS SPECTROMETER 18 BECAUSE IT DOESN'T WORK IF YOU HAVE EITHER OF THOSE 19 THINGS PRESENT. 20 Q HOW DO YOU MAKE THE MS BOX WORK WITH THE 2 1 GC, SIR? 2 2 A OKAY. 2 3 AS I MENTIONED EARLIER, I MAY NOT HAVE 2 4 MADE A POINT WITH IT, BUT A GAS CHROMATOGRAPH IS 2 5 OPERATED AT HIGHER PRESSURE. 2 6 YOU HAVE ACTUALLY GAS CYLINDERS LIKE THE 27 OXYGEN CYLINDERS YOU SEE AT HOSPITALS AND THINGS OF 2 8 THAT SORT THAT ARE HOOKED TO IT. HARTOLDMONOQ43592 3 53 1 1 THEY PRESSURIZE THE INSTRUMENT AT, SAY, 2 30 TO 50 POUNDS PER SQUARE INCH. 3 A MASS SPECTROMETER OPERATES IN A VACUUM. 4 THERE IS NOTHING THERE. NO PRESSURE. 5 IN FACT, IT'S A MINUS PRESSURE. 6 SO YOU CAN'T JUST HOOK THE TWO UP. 7 SO WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO IS YOU HAVE TO 8 BUILD AN INTERFACE THAT TAKES WHAT YOU BRING OUT OF 9 HERE AND BRINGS IT DOWN TO THE CONDITIONS YOU NEED TO 10 BRING IT TO INTRODUCE IT IN THE MASS SPECTROMETER. 11 Q WOULD AN ANALOGY WOULD BE A TRANSITION 12 BETWEEN THE ENGINE, SOMETHING THAT CONNECTS THE TWO? 13 A CORRECT, CORRECT. 14 AND THE PROBLEM IS THAT YOU HAVE GOT A 15 HUGE AMOUNT OF GAS, UNDER PRESSURE. 16 YOU HAVE GASES LIKE THIS. 17 BUT THEN WHEN IT GETS TO, YOU KNOW, 18 REGULAR ROOM ATMOSPHERIC PRESSURE IT EXPANDS. 19 YOU HAVE A HUGE AMOUNT OF GAS, A VERY 2 0 SMALL AMOUNT OF PCB'S. YOU WANT TO THROW ALL OF THAT 2 1 GAS AWAY AND THEN LET THE PCB'S INTO THIS VACUUM, 2 2 SUCK IT INTO THIS VACUUM. 2 3 THERE IS A SPECIALIZED INTERFACE CALLED A 24 JET SEPARATOR. 25 AND I WILL TRY TO EXPLAIN IT, BUT I'M NOT 26 SURE HOW IT WORKS. I DO KNOW HOW IT WORKS, THOUGH. 2 7 THERE ARE OTHER THINGS THAT SPECIALIZE IN THOSE KINDS 2 8 OF THINGS. HARTOLDMON0043593 3 53 3 1 DESIGNED AND BUILT INSTRUMENTS WHO WORKED WITH THE 2 MASS SPEC OPERATOR AND FULLY BUILT THE INTERFACE THAT 3 MIGHT BE SIMILAR TO IT. 4 Q HOW LONG DID IT TAKE THEM, ONCE THE MS 5 ARRIVED, THE MASS SPEC ARRIVED, TO GET THAT 6 OPERATIONAL AS WELL AS ESTABLISHING AN INTERFACE WITH 7 THE GC, SIR? 8 A I DON'T BELIEVE THAT WE REALLY WERE IN A 9 POSITION TO DO ENVIRONMENTAL SAMPLES, YOU KNOW, MAYBE 10 ONE FOR A WEEK UNTIL ALMOST 1969. 11 Q COULD YOU PUT A ONE BY THE GC, ECD UNIT. 12 A OKAY. 13 Q AND THEN A TWO THERE. 14 AND THEN ON THE BOTTOM PUT A THREE. 15 A OKAY. 16 Q NOW, WAY DOWN. 17 A OKAY. 18 Q NOW, YOU MENTIONED EARLIER, YOU CAN 19 EITHER STAY THERE, TAKE A SEAT, WHATEVER YOU LIKE. 20 YOU MENTIONED THERE EARLIER ABOUT TAKING 2 1 ENVIRONMENTAL SAMPLES AND AN EXTRACTION AND CLEAN-UP. 2 2 NOW, WHEN WERE YOU ABLE TO -- TELL US 2 3 WHAT IS INVOLVED IN THAT PROCESS. 2 4 IS THAT SOMETHING YOU CAN GO TO A BOOK 2 5 AND FIND OUT HOW TO DO IT? 2 6 WHAT STEPS WERE NECESSARY FOR YOU TO TAKE 2 7 TO LEARN HOW TO DO THAT PROCESS? 2 8 A NO, NO. HARTOLDMONOQ43595 3534 1 THESE WERE NOT STANDARDIZED ANALYTICAL 2 METHODOLOGIES. 3 THESE WERE ANALYTICAL METHODOLOGIES YOU 4 DEVELOPED AND THAT ULTIMATELY, LATE, MANY YEARS LATER 5 BECAME STANDARDIZED AND CODIFIED. 6 MOST OF THE WORK INITIALLY WAS DONE WITH 7 KNOWNS. 8 BY THAT I MEAN, TERM I KNEW WHAT IT WAS 9 AND I PUT IT IN ONE OF THE WHOLE PROCESS AND TOOK IT 10 OUT THE OTHER END OF THE PROCESS AND I KNEW WHAT I 11 SHOULD GET BACK. 12 IF I GOT BACK WHAT I PUT IN, I WAS VERY 13 HAPPY. BECAUSE THE DIFFERENT PROCEDURES THAT I HAD 14 SUGGESTED OR CHOSEN TO AFFECT THE SEPARATION, THINGS 15 OF THAT SORT, THE PCB'S WERE ABLE TO GET THROUGH 16 THAT . 17 BUT IF I DIDN'T SEE THEM ON THE OTHER 18 END, THEN I HAD TO GO BACK TO THE VARIOUS PROCEDURES, 19 THE EXTRACTION, THE MACRO SEPARATION, THE CLEAN UP, 20 THE MICRO SEPARATION, THE CONCENTRATION STEPS. 2 1 I WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK IN AND DETERMINE 22 WHICH OF THOSE STEPS WERE NOT WORKING CORRECTLY. 2 3 AND IT'S WHAT WE CALL A RE-ENTRY PROCESS, 24 IN OTHER WORDS YOU KEEP DOING IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN 25 UNTIL YOU GET RID OF ALL THE PROBLEMS AND BUGS. 26 YOU HAVE A STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE 27 OR AN ANALYTICAL METHOD THAT WORKS WITH KNOWNS. 28 Q SO THAT WAS A TRIAL AND ERROR PROCEDURE HARTOLDMONOQ43596 3 53 5 1 FOR YOU? 2 A CORRECT. 3 AT THAT POINT IN TIME YOU ARE ABOUT TO 4 BEGIN WORKING WITH, QUOTES, "REAL SAMPLES." 5 Q SO NUMBER 3, THEN, WOULD BE YOUR SAMPLE 6 ANALYSIS? 7 A RIGHT. 8 Q LEARNING THOSE TECHNIQUES? 9 A THERE IS ONE LEVEL BETWEEN THAT AND 10 REALLY DOING REAL SAMPLES. 11 THAT IS WHERE YOU TAKE SAMPLES OF 12 MATRIXES THAT YOU KNOW YOU DON'T HAVE WHAT YOU ARE 13 LOOKING FOR IN IT AND YOU PUT IT IN THERE. 14 Q OKAY. 15 A THEN YOU MAKE SURE YOU CAN REALLY GET IT 16 OUT OF SOIL AND OUT OF WATER AND THOSE KINDS OF 17 THINGS AND GET IT THROUGH YOUR THING. 18 ONCE YOU HAVE ESTABLISHED THAT, THEN YOU 19 ARE READY TO GO GET SAMPLES, REAL-LIFE SAMPLES. 2 0 AND ACTUALLY ANALYZE THE SAMPLES AND SEE 21 WHAT IS THERE. 2 2 Q SO THREE WOULD BE -- WOULD YOU MAKE IT 23 TWO STEPS, THEN, THE KNOWN SAMPLING AND THEN UNKNOWN 24 SAMPLES? 2 5 A CORRECT. 2 6 Q AS ONE OFTHE INGREDIENTS YOUNEEDED? 27 A THERE WOULDBE STANDARDS, KNOWN SAMPLES 2 8 YOU PREPARED, SPIKED WITH KNOWN MATERIALS AND THEN HARTOLDMON0043597 353 6 1 THE REAL THING. 2 Q WOULD YOU PUT THAT ON THE BOARD? 3 A YES , SIR . 4 THE COURT: WE ARE GOING TO MARK THIS PAPER, 5 MR. PREUSS 7 6 MR . PREUSS: WE CAN, YOUR HONOR. 7 THE WITNESS : MAY I START WITH A NEW OR DO YOU 8 WANT THIS ON THIS 7 9 Q BY MR . PREUSS: NO, YOU CAN DO IT ON THE 10 OLD ONE. 11 THE COURT: THE NEXT AVAILABLE NUMBER IS 8 12 . 12. MR . PREUSS: THANK YOU. 13 THE COURT: DO YOU WANT TO MARK ALL THE PAGES 14 OR SIMPLY ONE? 15 MR . PREUSS: WHY DON'T WE MARK THEM ALL. 16 THE COURT: COLLECTIVELY AS 812. 17 MR.* PREUSS: THANK YOU. 18 THE WITNESS : STANDARDS. 19 Q BY MR . PREUSS: COULD YOU JUST WRITE ON 2 0 THERE 812 ON ONE OF THE CORNERS THERE SO WE CAN 2 1 REMEMBER THAT. 22 A 812 OR 8-12? 23 Q 8 12. 24 A ALL RIGHT. 2 5 Q I THINK YOU NEED AN N ON NUMBER 2, 2 6 K-W-O-N. 27 YOU WORK WITH STANDARDS, YOU WORK WITH 28 KNOWNS AND THEN YOU ARE READY TO WORK WITH UNKNOWNS. HARTOLDMON0043598 3 53 8 1 TIME . 2 AND WE REALLY WERE IN A POSITION TO FEEL 3 VERY COMFORTABLE WITH JUSTKNOWING WHAT WE WERE DOING 4 WITHKIND OF KNOWN, KNOWNS STARTING AROUND '69, LATE 5 ' 68 , ' 69 . 6 Q USING DIFFERENT TYPES OF SAMPLES, YOU 7 MENTIONED WATER, HAIR, SOIL AND YOU SAID SLUDGES, DID 8 YOU HAVE TO DEVELOP METHODOLOGIES FOR EXTRACTION ON 9 EACH ONE OF THOSE? 10 A CORRECT. 11 Q WHEN WOULD YOU PULL THE PCB'S OUT OF 12 WATER OR WHEN YOU PULLED THEM OUT OF THERE, WOULD YOU 13 GET OTHER THINGS OUT OF THOSE? 14 A NO, A LOT MOREORGANIC MOLECULES IN WATER 15 AND ORGANIC MOLECULES IN SOIL THAN THERE ARE IN AIR. 16 THEY ARE JUST ABLE TO DISSOLVE MORE IN 17 IT . 18 Q COULD YOU TURN THE PAGE BACK TO STEPS ONE 19 AND TWO, IF YOU CAN. 2 0 A OKAY. 2 1 Q CAN YOU TELL US HOW ONE AND TWO WORK 22 TOGETHER, IF THEY DO, WITH RESPECT TO TRYING TO 2 3 ANALYZE A SUBSTANCE AND MAYBE START WITH A KNOWN ONE 2 4 AND THEN MOVE ON TO AN UNKNOWN ONE. 2 5 A OKAY. 26 WELL, THERE ISA SUBTLE DIFFERENCE 2 7 BETWEEN THE TWO, BETWEEN THE TWO TECHNIQUES, BETWEEN 28 ELECTRON CAPTURE AND BETWEEN A MASS SPEC. HARTOLDMON0043600 3 5 39 1 THE ELECTRON CAPTURE CAN TELL YOU IF IT'S 2 THERE. BUT IT CAN'T TELL YOU FOR SURE. 3 AND IT'S DONE -- IT COSTS LESS TO DO AND 4 IT TAKES LESS TIME, THINGS OF THAT SORT, BUT IT 5 DOESN'T GIVE YOU -- THE QUALITY OF THE INFORMATION 6 ISN'T AS GOOD. 7 NOW, THE MASS SPEC COSTS A LOT. IT TAKES 8 A LONG TIME TO DO, BUT, AS I SAID, IT ABSOLUTELY 9 TELLS YOU IF IT'S THERE. 10 SO THE WAY THESE WERE USED IS, YOU WOULD 11 RUN A -- IF YOU ARE DEALING WITH KNOWNS, YOU RUN A 12 KNOWN THROUGH AN ELECTRON CAPTURE GAS CHROMATOGRAPH 13 AND YOU SAY, I THINK IT'S THERE. I'M PRETTY SURE. 14 YOU TAKE ANOTHER SAMPLE OF THE KNOWN AND 15 YOU RUN IT THROUGH MASS SPEC AND THE MASS SPEC WOULD 16 SAY, YEAH, YOU'RE RIGHT. IT'S THERE. 17 Q SO YOU WOULD TAKE AN EXTRACT AND FROM 18 THAT EXTRACT YOU PROCESS IT SO IT'S READY TO GO INTO 19 THE INSTRUMENT SO YOU WOULD DIVIDE IT UP AND PART OF 2 0 IT WENT IN THE GC ECD AND THE OTHER WENT IN THE GC 2 1 MS? 2 2 A YEAH, IF YOU DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING, YOU 2 3 WOULD SAY THERE IS NOTHING THERE. 24 IF YOU SAW SOMETHING, YOU WOULD SAY THERE 25 IS PROBABLY SOMETHING THERE. 2 6 DEPENDING UPON HOW CLOSE IT LOOKED TO 27 YOUR STANDARD, YOU COULD SAY WHETHER IT'S A HIGH 28 PROBABILITY OR LOW PROBABILITY. HARTOLDMON0043601 3 54 0 1 BUT YOU WOULD HAVE TO TAKE IT OVER HERE 2 TO CONFIRM IT TO ABSOLUTELY IDENTIFY THE FACT IT WAS 3 THERE. 4 Q WHEN YOU ARE DEALING WITH UNKNOWN 5 SUBSTANCES, DOES THE NUMBER TWO STEP BECOME EVEN MORE 6 IMPORTANT? 7 A YES . 8 Q AND WHY ISTHAT? 9 A WELL, FOR EXAMPLE, SOREN JENSEN AND 10 GUNNAR WIDMARK WERE LOOKING AT PCB'S. 11 WHAT THEY WERE SEEING WERE ONLY THE 12 OCTACHLORAL AND THE HIGHER CHLORINATED ISOMERS. 13 Q THAT IS THE EIGHT? . 14 A YES . 15 THEY WEREN'T SEEING AROCLORS. THEY WERE 16 SEEING PCB'S. 17 THEY WEREN'T SEEING PCB'S THAT LOOKED 18 LIKE AROCLORS. 19 I MEAN, THE PATTERNS WEREN'T THE SAME OR 2 0 ANYTHING OF THAT SORT. 2 1 SO IN ORDER -- THEY DIDN'T HAVE 2 2 STANDARDS. 23 AS I SAID, MASS SPEC IS AN ABSOLUTE 2 4 IDENTIFICATION TECHNIQUE. 2 5 SO THEY WERE ABLE TO TAKE THE MASS SPEC 2 6 AND IDENTIFY THE FACT THAT THEY HAD POLYCHLORINATED 2 7 BIPHENYLS, OCTACHLORO, PRESENT IN THAT SAMPLE. 28 THAT IS THE VALUE OF THE MASS SPEC. HARTOLDMON0043602 3541 1 Q OKAY. NOW, IN USING THE MASS SPEC HOW DO 2 YOU FIGURE OUT WHERE ALL THE PEAKS ARE OR SHOULD BE 3 OR HOW WERE YOU DOING THAT INITIALLY, I SHOULD SAY. 4 A OKAY. 5 THE KIND OF CHROMATOGRAPHY YOU EMPLOYED, 6 THE GAS CHROMATOGRAPHY, THE ORIGINAL SEPARATION 7 TECHNIQUE THEY ARE PRETTY EQUIVALENT, THERE ARE SOME 8 DIFFERENCES BUT THEY ARE PRETTY EQUIVALENT. 9 WE KNOW FROM THIS DETECTOR WHERE THE 10 PEAKS COME OUT AND WHERE THE PEAKS GO THROUGH THE 11 INTERFACE AND INTO THE MASS SPEC. 12 AND THE MASS SPECTROMETER MONITORS 13 SOMETHING THAT IS CALLED TOTAL ION CURRENT. 14 AND IT GIVES YOU THE KIND OF PRINTOUT 15 THAT AN ELECTRON CAPTURE DETECTOR PRINTOUT GIVES YOU. 16 IT ALSO DOES ANOTHER THING IN THE SENSE 17 THAT IT LOOKS AT WHAT YOU ARE SEEING AS IT COMES OUT 18 AND IT LOOKS AT ALL THE DIFFERENT PIECES. 19 I CAN TRY TO EXPLAIN WHAT IT DOES, IF YOU 2 0 WOULD LIKE ME TO DO SO. 2 1 Q WHY DON'T YOU DO THAT AS BASICALLY AS YOU 2 2 CAN . 2 3 A OKAY. 24 WE HAVE GOT THE MASS SPECAND WEHAVE ALL 2 5 THE TOTAL ION CURRENT, MONITOR, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO 26 DO . 27 THIS IS TIME. 28 Q DOCTOR, TRY TO KEEP YOURVOICE UP AND HARTOLDMON0043603 3 54 2 1 STATE SLOWLY. 2 A WHICH IS EQUIVALENT TO TIME. 3 SO YOU END UP WITH THIS SAME TYPE OF 4 CHROMATOGRAM WE SAW EARLIER WHERE THESE COULD OR 5 COULD NOT BE PCB'S BUT THEY ARE THINGS THAT THE 6 INSTRUMENT IS RESPONDING TO, THAT YOU ISOLATED WHEN 7 YOU WENT THROUGH ALL THE SEPARATION TECHNIQUES. 8 AT THE SAME TIME WHAT HAPPENS IS THAT 9 THESE MOLECULES, BIPHENYL OR WHATEVER, DDT, WHATEVER, 10 GO INTO THE MASS SPEC AND THEY ARE BOMBARDED WITH AN 11 ELECTRON BEAM. 12 Q SO THEY GOTHROUGH THE INTERFACE? 13 A CORRECT. 14 Q AND THENTHEY GET INTO THE MASS SPEC? 15 A CORRECT. 1 6 THE OBJECTIVE OF THAT ELECTRON BEAM IS TO 17 CHARGE THE MOLECULES, OKAY? 18 YOU HAVE GOT THIS PEAK. 19 YOU SAY THIS WAS -- WE WILL JUST USE THAT 2 0 TO SYMBOLICALLY REPRESENT ONE OF THE THINGS IN THAT 2 1 PEAK. 22 THIS GOES INTO THE MASS SPECTROMETER AND 2 3 THERE ARE ELECTRIC NODES HERE THAT IONIZE THIS THING 2 4 AND IT BECOMES CHARGED, SAY IT HAS A POSITIVE CHARGE, 25 OKAY? 26 AND THEN IT GOES THROUGH A MAGNETIC 2 7 SEPARATOR WHICH IS PART OF THE MASS SPECTROMETER AND 28 THEN THERE IS A DETECTOR OVER HERE. HARTOLDMON0043604 3 54 3 1 IF IT ' S UNBROKEN, NOT FRAGMENTED, BROKEN 2 INTO PARTS, IT GOES DIRECTLY THROUGH. 3 DEPENDING ON WHAT IT'S MASS IS IT WILL 4 CURVE DOWN AND HIT THIS PLATE. 5 THE POSITION IT HITS -6 Q THE MASS BEING ITS WEIGHT? 7 A LIKE I SAID, BIPHENYL IS 154. 3 IF THIS WERE BIPHENYL AND IT CAME DOWN 9 AND HIT THE PLATE, YOU WOULD KNOW THAT IT WAS 154. 10 SO THAT WOULD PROBABLY TELL YOU, GIVE YOU 11 A CLUE YOU MIGHT BE DEALING WITH BIPHENYL. 12 OTHER THINGS THAT HAPPEN IN THIS SOURCE, 13 FOR EXAMPLE, IS THAT THIS COULD BE BROKEN INTO TWO 14 PIECES. 15 IN OTHER WORDS, THOSE TWO RINGS COULD BE 16 BROKEN APART AND NOW WE HAVE TWO OTHER THINGS IN HERE 17 FRAGMENTED BY THE ELECTRON BEAM AND THESE ALSO HAVE A 18 CHARGE. 19 THOSE WOULD BE LIGHTER. 20 SO I'M GOING TO PUT "LIGHTER" DOWN HERE 2 1 BECAUSE IT'S EASIER. 2 2 SO THEY WOULD FALL LIKE THIS, OKAY? 23 AND THEN ALSO YOU COULD TAKE THAT AND IT 24 MIGHT BREAK INTO FOURS. 2 5 AND THEN THOSE WOULD BE EVEN LIGHTER, 2 6 EACH INDIVIDUAL PIECE WOULD BE LIGHTER SO IT COULD 27 WOULD GO LIKE THAT. 28 IT'S CALLED A MASS SPECTROMETER. HARTOLDMON0043605 3 544 1 IN ADDITION TO THAT YOU WOULD HAVE ONE OF 2 THESE, TWO OF THESE AND FOUR OF THOSE. 3 SO WHEN YOU LOOKED AT THE RESPONSE HERE, 4 YOU WOULD EXPECT TO SEE THEM IN A RATIO TO ONE TO TWO 5 TO FOUR, OKAY? 6 SO YOU END UP WITH, IN ADDITION TO THIS 7 PEAK COMING OUT HERE FOR THAT PEAK, YOU END UP WITH A 8 NUMBER VERSUS ATOMIC MASS UNITS AND YOU WOULD END UP 9 WITH A -- THIS IS THE LOW TO HIGH, ZERO TO 800, WE 10 WILL CALL IT. 11 YOU WOULD END UP, SAY THIS IS 154, HALF 12 OF 154 IS 72. 13 IS THAT RIGHT? 14 WELL, 77, SORRY. 15 AND HALF OF 77, LET'S SAY, THAT WOULD BE 16 37, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. 17 BUT AT ANY RATE, AT 37, 77 AND 154 WOULD 18 YOU END UP WITH PEAKS OR FRACTION AMOUNTS THAT LOOKED 19 LIKE THIS AND THE RATIO OF FOUR TO TWO TO ONE. 2 0 AND THAT WOULD ABSOLUTELY IDENTIFY THAT 2 1 BECAUSE YOU COULD PUT THAT BACK TOGETHER AND FORM 2 2 THAT BIPHENYL MOLECULE AND THAT IS THE WAY YOU 23 ABSOLUTELY IDENTIFY THAT THAT IS PRESENT, OKAY? 24 Q OKAY. 2 5 A THAT IS WHY A MASS SPECTROMETER IS NOT 26 UNIQUE AMONG ALL THE DETECTION SYSTEMS. 2 7 Q LET'S TAKE A TIME FRAME OF 1968, 28 DR. TUCKER. HARTOLDMON0043606 3 54 5 1 HOW LONG WOULD IT TAKE YOU TO ANALYZE A 2 SAMPLE, ONCE YOU HAD YOUR GC ECD AND YOUR MASS SPEC 3 IN OPERATION? 4 A BY THE TIME THE INITIAL SAMPLES, BY THE 5 TIME YOU TAKE THEM THROUGH ALL THE PROCEDURES, THE 6 EXTRACTION, THE MACRO SEPARATION, MICRO SEPARATION, 7 THE CLEANUPS, THE CONCENTRATION, THE GAS 8 CHROMATOGRAPHY ELECTRON CAPTURE WORK AND AT THAT 9 POINT IN TIME YOU SAW SOMETHING, THEN YOU WOULD TAKE 10 THE EXTRACT OVER TO THE MASS SPECTROMETER AND YOU 11 WOULD RUN IT THROUGH THE MASS SPECTROMETER. 12 IT COULD BE TWO WEEKS BEFORE YOU GOT THE 13 RESULTS ALL OUT. . 14 Q THAT IS FOR A SINGLE SAMPLE? 15 A YES, SIR. 16 Q AND DID YOU HAVE A COMPUTER TO ASSIST YOU 17 AT ALL IN THIS? 18 A NO. 19 EARLY ON -- NOWADAYS COMPUTERS HAVE MADE 2 0 OUR LIFE VERY EASY. 2 1 . I THINK IT HAS MADE IT VERY COMPLEX. 2 2 AT ANY RATE AT THAT POINT IN TIME WE 2 3 DIDN'T HAVE COMPUTERS TO HANDLE DATA. 24 SO THE WAY THE INFORMATION ON THE MASS 2 5 SPECTROMETER WAS OBTAINED WAS BY USING WHAT IS CALLED 2 6 OSCILLOGRAPHICS RECORDER IT'S LIKE A STRIP CHART 27 RECORDER, TO SPIN A LIGHT. ALL OF THESE THINGS 28 HAPPEN SO FAST THE CHART SPEED TO RECORD IS 100 FEET HARTOLDMON0043607 3 546 1 PER MINUTE. . 2 IT MEANT IF YOU LET IT RUN FOR A MINUTE 3 100 FEET OF THE PAPER WOULD COME OUT. 4 THE PAPER WAS PHOTOGRAPHIC PAPER, 5 SENSITIVE TO LIGHT. 6 A REGULAR MECHANICAL PEN COULDN'T GO FAST 7 ENOUGH TO RECORD THE EVENTS SO WE USED A LIGHT PEN. 8 SO WHEN ONE OF THESE, THE PEAK WOULD BE 9 SHOWN WE WOULD PASS IT BUT ONLY TO OBTAIN THE MASS 10 SPECTRUM, SCAN FROM ZERO TO 100 AMU'S OVER AND OVER 11 AGAIN. 12 THAT WOULD BE RECORDED ON THE 13 OSCILLOGRAPHIC PAPERS. 14 WE WOULD ROLL THESE UP AND THEN SINCE 15 THEY WERE LONG, AT NIGHT WHEN PEOPLE HAD GONE HOME, 16 WE WOULD HAVE A BIG HALLWAY THERE. 17 WE WOULD ROLL THEM OUT ON THE HALLWAY AND 18 TAKE A METER STICK AND MEASURE THE THINGS AND WE 19 COULD RELATE THE MEASUREMENT TO THE WEIGHT, TO ATOMIC 2 0 MASS UNIT. 2 1 THAT IS THE WAY WE DISCOVERED WHETHER OR 22 NOT WE ACTUALLY HAD POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS OR 2 3 WHATEVER THERE. 24 Q SO YOU HAD TO ROLL THE SHEET OUT? 25 A CORRECT. 26 Q AND THEN MEASURE IT. 27 DID YOU HAVE TO BE PRECISE IN YOUR 28 MEASUREMENTS? HARTOLDMON0043608 3 54 7 1 A YES . 2 Q WHY DID YOU HAVE TO BE PRECISE? 3 A WELL, ZERO TO 800 OVER THIS LONG THING, I 4 MEAN IF YOU MAKE A SMALL ERROR OVER HERE AND YOU 5 REPEAT IT, IT TRANSLATES INTO A BIG ERROR. 6 IT IS LIKE IF I WANT TO GO FROM THERE TO 7 THERE AND I'M OFF A LITTLE, THE FURTHER THAT IS AWAY 8 THE MORE I WILL MISS IT. 9 YOU HAD TO BE VERY CAREFUL THAT YOU ARE 10 CALIBRATED PROPERLY AND YOUR STANDARDS WERE IN PLACE, 11 Q IN THE INITIAL SAMPLES, THAT HAD TO BE 12 DONE MANUALLY? 13 A YES . 14 Q AT SOME POINT DID MONSANTO ACQUIRE A 15 COMPUTER TO ASSIST IN THIS PROCESS? 16 A YES, WE DID. 17 Q WHENWAS THAT? 18 A I THINK IT WAS IN '69 THAT THE COMPUTER 19 WAS OBTAINED OR, AT LEAST, FOR SURE IT WAS UP IN '69. 20 THAT HELPED CONSIDERABLY IN TERMS OF THE 2 1 DATA HANDLING. 2 2 Q AND THE ABILITY TO COMPLETE A SAMPLE WITH 2 3 MORE QUICKNESS? 24 A CORRECT. AND WITH MORE -- IT MADE IT 2 5 MORE REPETITIVE, MORE REPRODUGEABLE. BECAUSE YOU 26 TOOK MORE OF THE HUMAN ELEMENT OUT OF IT. 27 Q OKAY. NOW, YOU INDICATED THAT ABOUT 2 8 AROUND 1969 THERE WAS A -- AT THE START OF 1969 YOU HARTOLDMON0043609 3 548 1 HAD YOUR UNITS IN PLACE AND YOU HAD METHODOLOGIES 2 DOWN PRETTY WELL AND YOU WERE READY TO START TAKING A 3 LOOK AT A SUBSTANCE THAT MAY BE FOUND IN THE 4 ENVIRONMENT, IF YOU WILL; IS THAT RIGHT? 5 A CORRECT. 6 Q AND WHAT -- TELL US WHAT DID YOU IN TERMS 7 OF ANALYTIC WORK IN 1969 TO MOVE MONSANTO'S KNOWLEDGE 8 AHEAD WITH RESPECT TO THE PRESENCE OF PCB'S IN THE 9 ENVIRONMENT? 10 A WELL, INITIALLY WE DECIDED THAT WE WOULD 11 GO TO PLACES THAT HAD THE HIGHEST PROBABILITY OF 12 HAVING THOSE CONSTITUENTS THERE. 13 AND, OF COURSE, THAT WOULD BE OUTSIDE OF 14 THE UNITS WHERE THEY WERE MANUFACTURED AND/OR USED. 15 AND SO THAT IS BASICALLY WHAT WE DID. 16 WE WOULD GO TO THE SOURCE BECAUSE IN OUR 17 OPINION IF WE WERE GOING TO FIND AROCLORS OR PCB'S, 18 THAT WOULD BE WHERE WE WOULD FIND THEM FIRST. 19 THEN HAVING DONE THAT, THEN WE WOULD MOVE 2 0 ON . 2 1 BECAUSE IF YOU DIDN'T FIND THEM AT THE 2 2 SOURCE, THEN YOU HAD TO HAVE SOME OTHER EXPLANATION 23 FOR WHY THEY WERE BEING FOUND OUT IN THE OCEAN, SEA 24 HAWKS, THINGS OF THAT SORT. 2 5 Q AND DID YOU SEEK WATER SAMPLES AND TEST 2 6 THOSE? 27 A CORRECT. 28 THE FIRST MATRIX WE STARTED DEALING WITH HARTOLDMON0043610 3 54 9 1 WERE WATERS AND I THINK SUBSEQUENT TO THAT WERE 2 SEDIMENTS ASSOCIATED WITH THOSE WATERS, 3 Q DID YOU EXPAND OUT INTO OTHER SUBSTANCES 4 IN 1969? 5 A CORRECT. 6 I BELIEVE IT WAS IN 1969 THAT WE HAD A 7 FIRM PRODUCE TISSUE SAMPLES OF LABORATORY ANIMALS 8 THAT WERE EXPOSED TO THESE MATERIALS AND THAT WE 9 BEGAN LOOKING AT THOSE KINDS OF THINGS, TOO. 10 Q AND WHAT WERE YOU LOOKING FOR FROM TISSUE 11 SAMPLES? 12 A IN THE TISSUE STUDIES WE WERE LOOKING FOR 13 WHEN THE ANIMAL WAS INTENTIONALLY EXPOSED TO THESE 14 MATERIALS WE WERE LOOKING TO WHERE IT WENT, HOW MUCH 15 THE ANIMAL RETAINED. 16 WE WERE TRYING TO DO BASICALLY A MATERIAL 17 BALANCE AS TO WHETHER IT WENT TO THE FAT OR THE 18 MUSCLE, WHETHER IT WAS EXCRETED AND ALSO VERY 19 IMPORTANTLY WE WERE TRYING TO ESTABLISH WHETHER OR 2 0 NOT THE AROCLOR PATTERN WAS ALTERED SUCH THAT WE 2 1 COULD EXPLAIN WHERE THESE ALTERED PATTERNS THAT OTHER 22 PEOPLE WERE SEEING WERE COMING FROM. 2 3 Q OKAY. AND WAS THAT INFORMATION AVAILABLE 24 OUT IN THE WORLD? 25 A NO. 2 6 Q IS THAT NEWGROUND? 2 7 A YES . 28 THAT HAD NOT BEEN DONE BEFORE. HARTOLDMONOQ43611 3 5 50 1 Q OKAY. NOW, YOU TALKED ABOUT THAT JENSEN 2 AND WIDMARK WERE PESTICIDE RESEARCHERS? 3 A CORRECT. 4 Q AND IN DDT WAS A PESTICIDE THEY WERE 5 TAKING A LOOK AT? 6 A YES . 7 Q AND CAN YOU DESCRIBE FOR USTHE 8 DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LOOKING FOR DDT, FOR EXAMPLE, AND 9 LOOKING FOR PCB'S? 10 A OKAY. 11 WELL, FIRST OFALL, THEY ARE BOTH 12 CHLORINATED HYDROCARBONS. 13 AND THE DDT IS A SINGLE CONSTITUENT. 14 IT'S ONE THING. 15 THE PCB'S ARE 209 CONSTITUENTS. 16 IN ADDITION TO THAT, DDT, DID THEY HAVE A 17 COUPLE OF OTHER PEAKS ASSOCIATED WITH IT? THEY WERE 18 METABULITE S AND IMPURITIES, DDE THEY CALLED IT. 19 SO AT THE MAXIMUM YOU MIGHT BE LOOKING 20 FOR ONE PEAK PLUS TWO TO FOUR OTHERS IN THE 2 1 CHROMATOGRAM VERSUS THE 209 PEAKS YOU WOULD BE 2 2 LOOKING FOR PCB'S. 23 Q AND WHEN YOU SAY "209 PEAKS," ARE YOU 24 SAYING THERE ARE 209 DIFFERENT LOOKS OF PCB'S THAT 2 5 YOU WOULD SEE ON A CHROMATOGRAM POSSIBLE? 2 6 A I DON'T THINK WE WERE EVER REALLY ABLE TO 2 7 ACHIEVE 100 PERCENT RESOLUTION, BUT CERTAINLY WE GOT 28 TO THE POINT WHERE YOU COULD SEE LITERALLY HUNDREDS HARTOLDMONOQ43612 3 551 1 OF PEAKS, 50 TO 100 PEAKS, I THINK. 2 Q I WANT TO SHOW YOU A PORTION OF SOME GAS 3 CHROMATOGRAMS FROM EXHIBIT 241. 4 NOW, THOSE ARE CHROMATOGRAMS OF WHAT WE 5 WOULD CALL KNOWN SAMPLES; IS THAT CORRECT? 6 A RIGHT. 7 THESE ARE AROCLOR PRODUCT SAMPLES. 8 Q ALL RIGHT. 9 A AND AS I TALKED ABOUT EARLIER, THE FIRST 10 ONE WOULD BE AROCLOR 1221 EQUIVALENT TO A MONO. 11 THEN AROCLOR 1242, TRI. 12. AROCLOR 1254 WOULD BE A PENTA OR FIVE. 13 AND THEN AROCLOR 1260 WHICH WOULD BE A 14 SIX . 15 AND THOSE ARE ELECTRON CAPTURE 16 CHROMATOGRAMS. 17 ON THE LEFT THE PEAKS ARE THE RESPONSE, 18 THE AMOUNT THAT IS THERE. 19 AND ON THE RIGHT ARE THE INDIVIDUAL 2 0 CONSTITUENTS THAT ARE THERE. 2 1 AND THE AROCLOR 1221 IS LOWER BOILING, 2 2 MORE VOLATILE THAN THE 1260. 2 3 SO THAT IS WHY IT COMES OUT EARLIER AND 2 4 THE NEXT ONE COMES OUT. 2 5 IT'S RELATED TO THE WEIGHT. 2 6 Q SO IF YOU HAD A STANDARD, LET'S SAY YOU 2 7 HAD A STANDARD AND IT LOOKED LIKE THIS AND YOU RAN A 28 KNOWN SAMPLE IN IT, YOU WOULD EXPECT IT TO COME OUT HARTOLDMONOQ43613 3 552 1 JUST THE SAME WAY, RIGHT? 2 A THAT IS CORRECT. 3 Q WHAT ABOUT IF YOU WERE TAKING A SAMPLE 4 FROM THE OUTSIDE THAT HAD BEEN OUT IN THE WATER OR 5 BEEN OUT IN THE SOIL FOR A WHILE, WOULD IT LOOK LIKE 6 THAT? 7 A NO . 8 THERE WERE -- WE LATER FOUND THERE WERE A 9 LOT OF THINGS THAT HAPPENED TO PCB'S IN WEATHERED 10 ENVIRONMENTAL SAMPLES THAT CHANGED WHAT THAT 11 CHROMATOGRAM LOOKED LIKE. 12 Q AND HOW DID THAT IMPACT UPON YOUR ABILITY 13 TO ANALYZE THE SUBSTANCE? 14 A WELL, WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IS THAT 15 BASICALLY -- HALF OF ONE OF THOSE CHROMATOGRAMS MIGHT 16 DISAPPEAR AND THEN PART OF WHAT WAS LEFT WOULD 17 DISAPPEAR, TOO. 18 IT WOULD CHANGE THE THING SO IT DIDN'T 19 LOOK LIKE ANYTHING LIKE THE ORIGINAL CHROMATOGRAM. 2 0 YOU MIGHT HAVE PEAKS WITH THE SAME 2 1 RETENTION TIMES. 2 2 SO WHAT YOU WOULD TO HAVE TO SAY IS THERE 2 3 MIGHT BE PCB'S THERE AND THERE MIGHT BE THIS MUCH. 24 NOW, THE MORE ALTERATIONS YOU HAD, THE 2 5 MORE QUALITATIVE YOUR MEASURING WAS, THE LESS ON THE 2 6 MARK YOU MIGHT BE. 2 7 Q IN THOSE SITUATIONS DID THAT MAKE THE 28 MASS SPECTROMETER A MORE IMPORTANT TOOL TO HAVE IN HARTOLDMONOQ43614 3 553 1 THAT? 2 A IN THAT SITUATION IF YOU WANTED TO KNOW 3 IF YOU WERE DEALING A PCB AND NOT GUESS, YOU WOULD 4 HAVE TO HAVE A MASS SPECTROMETER TO IDENTIFY IT. 5 Q OKAY. NOW, SOME SAMPLES ARE, I TAKE IT, 6 METABOLIZED OR DEGRADED BIOLOGICALLY IN THE 7 ENVIRONMENT; IS THAT WHAT YOU FOUND? 8 A WE FOUND THAT PCB'S WERE BIODEGRADABLE 9 AND THAT THEY DID UNDERGO WHAT WE CALLED THE 10 WEATHERING PROCESS. 11 WE USED THE TERM "WEATHERING" BECAUSE 12 THERE ARE MORE THINGS THAN JUST BIODEGRADATION THAT 13 CAN OCCUR, LIGHT CAN CAUSE THINGS, U.V. LIGHT CAN 14 CAUSE THINGS TO FALL APART, AND THERE ARE A LOT OF 15 OTHER PHYSICAL CHEMICAL THINGS THAT CAN CHANGE IN 16 MOLECULE STRUCTURES SO WE CALLED IT WEATHERED, 17 Q THE PROCESS YOU HAVE DESCRIBED AS FAR AS 18 THE PC WITH THE ELECTRON DETECTOR THE MASS SPEC ALSO 19 TIED INTO THE GC WITH AN INTERFACE, WAS THAT THE SAME 2 0 THING THAT JENSEN AND WIDMARK WERE DOING OR HOW WERE 2 1 YOUR EFFORTS DIFFERENT IN ANY WAY? 2 2 A WELL, THEY WERE THE SAME ANALYTICAL 2 3 TECHNIQUES. 2 4 BUT JENSEN AND WIDMARK WERE SIMPLY TRYING 2 5 TO EXPLAIN WHAT THEY COULDN'T EXPLAIN UP TO THAT 2 6 POINT IN TIME. 27 THEY WOULD LOOK AT AN ENVIRONMENTAL 28 SAMPLES FOR, SAY, DDT, SOMETHING OF THAT SORT, AND HARTOLDMONOQ43615 3 554 1 THEY WOULD SEE THE PEAKS THAT THEY THOUGHT WERE 2 ASSOCIATED WITH THAT AND THEN THEY SAW A LOT OF OTHER 3 THINGS IN THAT AND THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THEY WERE. 4 THEY USED TO CALL THEM LATE DDT PEAKS, 5 SOMETHING OF THAT SORT. 6 SO THEIR OBJECTIVE WAS SIMPLY TO FIND OUT 7 WHAT WAS THE MOLECULAR STRUCTURE OF THOSE OTHER 8 PEAKS. 9 AND SO THAT WAS WHAT THEY WERE AFTER. 10 ONCE IT WAS DECIDED THAT SOME OF THOSE 11 PEAKS WERE PCB'S, THEN OUR OBJECTIVE WAS A LOT 12 DIFFERENT. 13 WE MANUFACTURED A SPECIFIC KIND OF PCB'S 14 AND THEY WERE CALLED AROCLORS. 15 IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT FOR US AND FOR 16 ANYBODY, FRANKLY, IN THE ENVIRONMENTAL COMMUNITY AT 17 THAT POINT IN TIME TO UNDERSTAND THE RELATIONSHIP 18 BETWEEN THE TWO. 19 Q WHY IS THAT? 2 0 A WELL, I DON'T THINK THAT WE UNDERSTOOD 2 1 THE ENVIRONMENTAL TRANSPORT EFFECT AS WE DO NOW. 22 WE WERE IN THE LEARNING PROCESS FOR THAT, 2 3 HOW THEY ARE WEATHERED, HOW THEY ARE DEGRADED, HOW 2 4 THEY UNDERGO BIODEGRADATION, THINGS OF THAT SORT. 25 VERY FRANKLY THE PRODUCTS WE MANUFACTURED 2 6 WERE NOT INTENTIONALLY TREATED IN THE SAME WAY THAT 27 MANY AGRICULTURALS WERE LIKE DDT AND THINGS OF THAT 28 SORT . HARTOLDMON0043616 3 555 1 WE PUT THEM INTO CANS AND THE CANS WENT 2 INTO SOMETHING ELSE AND THEY WEREN'T INTENTIONALLY 3 SPREAD AROUND. 4 IT WAS DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND WHERE THEY 5 WERE COMING FROM. WE DIDN'T KNOW AND WE WANTED TO 6 KNOW . 7 SO THAT WAS OUR MISSION. 8 Q NOW, AT SOME TIME IN 1969 OR THEREABOUTS, 9 TOWARD THE END OF THE YEAR, DID YOU PUT TOGETHER A 10 COMPILATION OF THE STUDIES THAT YOU HAD FOUND THAT 11 HAD BEEN PERFORMED BY OTHER RESEARCHERS AS WELL AS 12 YOURSELF IN TAKING A LOOK AT SAMPLES AND WHAT HAD 13 BEEN FOUND? . 14 A CORRECT. 15 IT WAS KIND OF LIKE A BASELINE SITUATION 16 AS TO WHERE WE WERE AT. 17 Q AND COULD YOU TURN AROUND AND PULL FROM 18 ONE OF THE BINDERS THEIR EXHIBIT 110. 19 A WHAT VOLUME IS THAT IN? 20 Q I THINK IT'S A BLUE VOLUME UP AT THE TOP 2 1 THERE. 2 2 A OKAY. HERE IT IS. I SEE IT. 2 3 Q NUMBER TWO, I THINK? 24 A RIGHT. I'VE GOT IT. 25 I HAVE EXHIBIT 110. 26 Q NOW IS THIS A DOCUMENT YOU PREPARED, SIR? 27 A YES . 2 8 Q AND WE WON'T GO OVER ALL OF THIS, BUT WE HARTOLDMON0043617 3556 1 HAVE REVIEWED THESE BEFORE. 2 I WILL JUST PUT IT UP THERE. 3 WAS THIS A LIST THAT YOU COMPILED, SIR? 4 A YES, SIR. 5 Q AND, AGAIN, THE PURPOSE FOR DOING THAT 6 WAS WHAT? 7 A THE PURPOSE WAS JUST TO KIND OF BRING 8 TOGETHER ALL OF THE THINGS THAT WE HAD BEEN DOING TO 9 THIS POINT IN TIME AND TO KIND OF PUT IT INTO 10 PERSPECTIVE IN A ROUGH DRAFT FORMAT SO WE COULD BEGIN 11 TO START TO PUT THESE TOGETHER, START TO COMMUNICATE 12 THIS TO MANAGEMENT. 13 Q ALL RIGHT. AND A NUMBER OF THE ENTRIES 14 ON HERE INVOLVE WORK THAT YOU YOURSELF HAD DONE; IS 15 THAT RIGHT? 16 A THAT'S CORRECT. 17 Q' AND THESE WERE SOME OF THE -- SOME OF 18 THESE WERE WHERE YOU TOOK SAMPLES NEAR A MONSANTO 19 MANUFACTURING SITE; IS THAT RIGHT? 2 0 A CORRECT. 2 1 Q AND IN FACT, TOOK SOME AROUND KRUMMRICH 22 AND THE ANNISTON PLANT; IS THAT RIGHT? 2 3 A THAT'S CORRECT. 2 4 Q DID YOU ALSO TRY TO LOCATE WHEREVER YOU 25 COULD IN THE SCIENTIFIC LITERATURE, IF YOU WILL, 26 STUDIES DONE BY OTHER RESEARCHERS? 27 A RIGHT. 28 Q AND WITH RESPECT TO THOSESTUDIES, SIR, HARTOLDMON0043618 3 5 57 1 THAT LOOKED AT FINDINGS OF PCB'S NOT AT A SOURCE 2 SITE, IF YOU WILL, WHAT WERE THE FINDINGS THAT THOSE 3 STUDIES TOLD YOU WITH RESPECT TO THE LEVEL OF 4 CHLORINATION OF THE PCB'S BEING FOUND? 5 A WELL, THE STUDIES TOLD US THEY WERE 6 FINDING PCB'S AND THE STUDIES TOLD US THEY WERE ONLY 7 FINDING THE HIGHER CHLORINATED BIPHENYLS IN THE RANGE 8 OF SIX OR MORE CHLORINES IN THE MOLECULE IS WHAT THEY 9 WERE FINDING WHAT WE CALL THE WEATHERED SAMPLES NOW. 10 Q AND THOSE WOULD BE SAMPLES TAKEN AWAY 11 FROM ANY SOURCE OF PCB? 12 A RIGHT, WAY AWAY FROM ANY POINT SOURCE OF 13 PCB'S. 14 Q NOW, SIR, DID YOU GET INVOLVED IN TAKING 15 A LOOK AT WHETHER PCB'S WOULD BIODEGRADE AND IF SO 16 HOW FAST? 17 A YES . 18 Q AND WHEN DID YOU UNDERTAKE THAT EFFORT, 19 SIR? 2 0 A I BELIEVE THAT THAT KIND OF WORK WAS DONE 2 1 AFTER WE HAD THE ABILITY TO MONITOR PCB'S AND PRETTY 2 2 WELL UNDERSTOOD THAT. 2 3 IT WAS SOMETIME IN 1969 OR SO. 24 Q AND WHY WAS IT NECESSARY THAT YOU 2 5 UNDERSTOOD HOW TO ANALYZE THE SAMPLES BEFORE YOU 2 6 STARTED YOUR BIODEGRADATION STUDIES? 27 A WELL, IF WE DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO ANALYZE 2 8 FOR THE PCB'S AND THINGS OF THAT SORT, WE COULDN'T HARTOLDMONOQ43619 3 558 1 TELL WHETHER OR NOT THEY WERE UNDERGOING 2 BIODEGRADATION AND WHAT THE CHANGES WERE. 3 SO IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT THAT WE COULD 4 SEE WHAT IT LOOKED LIKE BEFORE IT WAS EXPOSED TO 5 ORGANISMS THAT WOULD DEGRADE IT AND THEN SEE WHAT IT 6 LOOKED LIKE AFTERWARDS. 7 Q CAN YOU TELL US WHAT A BIODEGRADATION 8 STUDY IS, SIR? 9 A ONE OF THE TECHNIQUES THAT WE EMPLOYED IS 10 CALLED A SEMI-CONTINUOUS ACTIVATED SLUDGE 11 BIODEGRADATION TEST. 12 WHAT THAT BASICALLY INVOLVED IS YOU HAVE 13 A CONTAINER AND YOU GET ACTIVATED SLUDGE FROM A 14 SEWAGE TREATMENT PLANT WHICH IS JUST BASICALLY A 15 BACTERIAL POPULATION. 16 IN FACT, A SEWAGE TREATMENT PLANT IS 17 WHAT, YOU KNOW, WE PUT ALL OF OUR SEWAGE INTO TO BE 18 TREATED. 19 THESE BUGS BIODEGRADE OUR SEWAGE. 20 AND YOU TAKE THIS POPULATION, AND THERE 2 1 IS THE UNIT DEPICTED THERE. 2 2 Q EXHIBIT 241, YOUR HONOR. 2 3 A AND YOU TAKE A KNOWN AMOUNT OF THE 2 4 BACTERIAL SLUDGE AND YOU WOULD PUT IT INTO THAT UNIT. 2 5 THEN YOU WOULD FILL IT UP THE REST OF THE 2 6 WAY WITH WATER AND NUTRIENTS THAT THE BACTERIA NEED 27 TO LIVE WITH. 2 8 THEN YOU WOULD BUBBLE AIR THROUGH IT, HARTOLDMON0043620 3 5 59 1 SINCE IT'S AN OXYGEN PROCESS, AN AEROBIC PROCESS THAT 2 TAKES PLACE IN THE PRESENCE OF OXYGEN, AND YOU WOULD 3 INOCULATE IT WITH THE COMPOUND YOU WERE LOOKING TO 4 SEE WHAT IS BIODEGRADABLE. 5 YOU WOULD ALLOW THE UNIT TO PERCH WITH 6 AIR AND SIT FOR 24 HOURS. 7 THEN YOU WOULD STOP THE AIR AND THE 8 SLUDGE WOULD SETTLE OUT. YOU WOULD MEASURE THE 9 SLUDGE VOLUME WHICH GAVE YOU A FEELING OF HOW WELL 10 THE BUGS WERE. 11 THEN YOU WOULD ALSO TAKE A SAMPLE AND YOU 12 WOULD ANALYZE IT FOR WHAT YOU PUT IN. 13 AND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT YOU PUT 14 IN AND WHAT YOU FOUND WAS THE AMOUNT OF MATERIAL 15 DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIME THAT WAS DEGRADED BY THE 16 BUGS . 17 AND WHAT I MEAN BY -- WHAT WE MEAN BY 18 "DEGRADATION" IS WHERE THE ORIGINAL MOLECULE IS 19 CHANGED TO AN EXTENT THAT IT'S NO LONGER THE ORIGINAL 2 0 MOLECULE. 2 1 AND IT CAN RANGE FROM MINOR CHANGES ALL 22 THE WAY TO COMPLETE MINERALIZATION TO CARBON DIOXIDE, 2 3 WATER AND MINERAL SALTS. 24 AND WHAT HAPPENS IS THAT THE BACTERIA 2 5 SIMPLY USE THAT MOLECULE AS A CARBON SOURCE AND AN 26 ENERGY SOURCE TO MAKE MORE BACTERIA. 27 Q SO, FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU WERE TAKING A 28 LOOK AT THE BIODEGRADATION OF 1242 YOU WOULD ADD A HARTOLDMONOQ43621 3 560 1 KNOWN AMOUNT TO THIS? 2 A CORRECT. 3 Q LEAVE IT IN THERE FOR A PERIOD OF TIME 4 AND SEE WHAT IT LOOKED LIKE WHEN YOU EXTRACTED A 5 SAMPLE? 6 A THAT'S CORRECT. 7 THAT PROCESS WAS REPEATED OVER AND OVER. 8 Q AND, AGAIN, WHAT WERE YOU ATTEMPTING TO 9 DO THROUGH THIS EXPERIMENT? 10 A WELL, WE WANTED TO SEEWHETHER THE 11 NATURAL BACTERIA THAT WERE AROUND WERE CAPABLE OF 12 METABOLIZING POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS, THIS HADN'T 13 BEEN SHOWN PREVIOUSLY, AND WHETHER- OR NOT THAT WAS 14 PART OF THE REASON THAT, YOU KNOW, WHAT WAS BEING 15 SEEN IN VERY WEATHERED SAMPLES WERE ONLY THE HIGHER 16 CHLORINATED MATERIALS. 17 AT THAT TIME WE DIDN'T KNOW THAT. 18 WE JUST MERELY WANTED TO SEE IF THE 19 WEATHERING WAS DUE TO BIODEGRADATION. 2 0 Q WHAT WERE YOUR FINDINGS WITH RESPECT TO 2 1 THE BIODEGRADATION OF THE VARIOUS CHLORINE HOMOLOGS? 2 2 A WHAT WE FOUND WAS THAT THE BIODEGRADATION 23 WAS RELATABLE TO THE DEGREE OF CHLORINATION. 24 NOW, WHAT THAT MEANS IS THAT BIPHENYL WAS 2 5 VERY BIODEGRADABLE. 26 MONOCHLORO BIPHENYL WAS BIODEGRADABLE. 27 DICHLOR WAS BIODEGRADABLE. 2 8 AS YOU ADDED MORE CHLORINES EVENTUALLY HARTOLDMON0043622 3561 1 THE BIODEGRADABILITY FELL OFF. BECAUSE THE 2 CHLORINES, IF YOU GET ENOUGH OF THEM ON THE RING, 3 PREVENT THE BACTERIA FROM BEING ABLE TO GET IN AND 4 OXIDIZE THE MATERIAL. 5 Q AND DID YOU MAKE ANY DETERMINATION AS TO 6 WHETHER CERTAIN THINGS BIODEGRADE FASTER OR SLOWER 7 THAN OTHERS? 8 A YES . 9 Q AND WHAT WERE YOUR FINDINGS IN THAT 10 REGARD? 11 A WELL, WE FOUND BASICALLY, AGAIN, THAT THE 12 RATE OF BIODEGRADATION WAS PROPORTIONAL TO THE DEGREE 13 OF CHLORINATION. 14 THE MORE CHLORINE, THE LESS 15 BIODEGRADABLE. 16 THE LESS CHLORINE, THE MORE 17 BIODEGRADABLE. 18 Q WHAT WERE YOUR FINDINGS -- FIRST OF ALL, 19 DID YOU DO BIODEGRADATION STUDIES ON 1242 2 0 SPECIFICALLY? 2 1 A CORRECT. 2 2 Q AND WHAT DID YOU FIND WITH RESPECT TO 2 3 1242? 2 4 A WHAT WE FOUND WAS THAT THE MAJORITY OF 2 5 THE BIPHENYL IN 1242 WAS BIODEGRADABLE. 2 6 IN FACT, DURING THE TIME FRAME THAT WE 27 WERE STUDYING, WHAT WE FOUND WAS THAT MOST OF THE 28 ISOMERS AND HOMOLOGS UP TO PENTACHLOR WERE HARTOLDMONOQ43623 3 562 1 BIODEGRADABLE. 2 Q UP TO THE FIVE? 3 A RIGHT, SHOWED SOME BIODEGRADATION. 4 AND THAT WAS REALLY KIND OF INTERESTING. 5 BECAUSE THIS WAS SUCH A SHORT PERIOD OF 6 TIME, WE ARE TALKING 24, 48 HOURS. SO WE WERE ABLE 7 TO ACTUALLY USE THEM AS A CARBON AND ENERGY SOURCE. 8 Q NOW, SIR, WHILE YOU WERE DOING THIS WORK 9 AFTER COMING IN LATE '67, '68, '69 AND ON UP TO THE 10 EARLY 70'S, '71, 72, WERE YOU IN COMMUNICATION WITH 11 OTHER LABORATORIES? 12 A YES . 13 Q AND WHAT TYPES OF LABORATORIES WERE YOU 14 IN CONTACT WITH? 15 A WELL, WE WERE IN CONTACT WITH MOST OF ALL 16 OF THE GOVERNMENT LABORATORIES THAT WERE, OF COURSE, 17 INTERESTED IN THIS KIND OF THING. 18 FOR EXAMPLE, THE PATUXENT AND THE MOUND 19 LABS, FISH AND WILDLIFE LABORATORIES, FOOD AND DRUG 20 ADMINISTRATION, WE WERE IN CONTACT WITH THOSE FOLKS 2 1 TOO, ALL THE ANALYTICAL CHEMISTS WERE INTERESTED IN 2 2 DEVELOPING METHODOLOGY FOR MEASURING PCB'S. 23 ONE OF THE THINGS WE DID EARLY ON WAS, AS 24 I SAID, ISOLATE MATERIALS THAT COULD BE USED AS 2 5 STANDARDS AND WE PROVIDED THESE TO ANY AND ALL 2 6 LABORATORIES THAT WERE INTERESTED IN OBTAINING THESE 2 7 SO THEY COULD BEGIN DEVELOPING AND ESTABLISHING, IN 2 8 THEIR OWN LABORATORIES, YOU KNOW, THE ANALYTICAL HARTOLDMONOQ43624 3 563 1 WHEREWITHAL TO MAKE THESE MEASUREMENTS. 2 THAT INCLUDED OUR CUSTOMERS' LABORATORIES 3 IN SOME INSTANCES WHERE THEY HAD THEM. 4 Q DID YOU PERSONALLY HAVE DIALOGUE WITH 5 ANALYTICAL CHEMISTS WITH BOTH PRIVATE AND 6 GOVERNMENTAL LABORATORIES? 7 A YES, I SPENT A FAIR AMOUNT OF TIME 8 DISCUSSING PCB'S, METHODOLOGIES AT NATIONAL MEETINGS 9 AND AT THEIR LABORATORIES AND THEY AT OURS. 10 Q DID YOU SHARE THE INFORMATION THAT YOU 11 GAINED WITH RESPECT TO BOTH SETTING UP UNITS, 12 EXTRACTION TECHNIQUES AND ANALYSIS TECHNIQUE 13 METHODOLOGIES YOU HAD DEVELOPED? 14 A YES, IT WAS OPENLY SHARED WITH EVERYBODY. 15 Q DID YOU SEEK INFORMATION FROM 16 GOVERNMENTAL RESEARCHERS AND PRIVATE RESEARCHERS TO 17 SEE HOW THEY WERE DOING? 18 A YES, WE DID. 19 AS I MENTIONED EARLIER NONE OF US IN THE 2 0 ANALYTICAL AREA ARE INTERESTED IN REINVENTING THE 2 1 WHEEL. 22 IF SOMEBODY HAS ALREADY DONE IT AND WE 23 DON'T HAVE TO SPEND A LOT OF TIME REDOING IT, WE 24 DON'T HAVE TO SPEND A LOT OF TIME ACCOMPLISHING THE 25 SAME OBJECTIVE. 26 Q DID YOU HAVEOCCASIONTO REPORT YOUR 2 7 FINDINGS TO A GROUP OR THE JOINTTASK FORCE? 28 A YES . HARTOLDMONOQ43625 3 564 1 Q AND WHAT ORGANIZATION OR GROUP WAS THAT, 2 SIR? 3 A I BELIEVE IT WAS THE PRESIDENT'S COUNSEL 4 ON ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY THAT WAS INTERESTED IN THE 5 PCB SITUATION AND WHAT WAS GOING ON. 6 AND WE PUT TOGETHER A REPORT TO PRESENT 7 WHAT WE KNEW AT THAT POINT IN TIME, WHAT WE HAD 8 DISCOVERED RELATIVE TO PCB'S IN THE ENVIRONMENT, TO 9 UPDATE THE GOVERNMENT BASICALLY ON WHERE WE WERE AT. 10 Q OKAY. AND WHO WOULD ATTEND THE JOINT 11 TASK FORCE PRESENTATION? 12 A I BELIEVE BILL PAPAGEORGE WAS KIND OF 13 LIKE THE CHAIRMAN. 14 THERE WAS MYSELF AND I DISCUSSED A NUMBER 15 OF THINGS. 16 THERE WAS DR. RALPH MUNCH, DR. CUMMING 17 PATON, THERE MAY HAVE BEEN ONE OTHER INDIVIDUAL BUT I 18 THINK THAT WAS PRETTY MUCH THE LIST OF FOLKS. 19 Q AND WHO WAS -- THOSE WERE THE MONSANTO 2 0 PEOPLE YOU WERE MENTIONING? 21 A THAT'S CORRECT. 22 Q WERE THERE REPRESENTATIVES FROM 23 GOVERNMENT AND OTHER ORGANIZATIONS AS WELL? 24 A YES, A NUMBER OF HIGH LEVEL 25 REPRESENTATIVES OF VARIOUS GOVERNMENTAL AGENCIES AND 2 6 SCIENTIFIC PARTIES INTERESTED IN WHAT WAS GOING ON. 27 Q AND I WILL SHOW YOU A PORTION -- YOU CAN 28 GET IT, IF YOU LIKE, IT'S EXHIBIT 241. HARTOLDMONOQ43626 3 565 1 IT'S IN VOLUME FIVE. 2 A THAT IS 241? 3 Q YES, SIR. 4 A OKAY, I HAVE IT. 5 Q AND IF YOU TAKE A LOOK THERE A FEW PAGES 6 IN THERE IS A SECTION THAT GOES "ENTITLED 7 ASSESSMENT"? 8 A YES, SIR. 9 Q "ASSESSMENT OF THE BIOLOGICAL PERSISTENCE 10 OF POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS"? 11 A CORRECT. 12 Q AND THAT IS THE PAPER THAT YOU BASED YOUR 13 PRESENTATION ON, SIR? 14 A YES, IT IS. 15 Q ALL RIGHT. I JUST WANTED TO ASK YOU A 16 COUPLE OF THINGS HERE. 17 YOU INDICATED HERE THAT YOU ARE GOING TO 18 TRY TO ILLUSTRATE THE COMPLEXITY OF THESE MATERIALS 19 AND HENCE THE COMPLEXITY OF THE PROBLEM? 2 0 A CORRECT. 2 1 Q AND WHAT DID YOU MEAN BY THAT 22 PHRASEOLOGY, SIR. 23 THIS WAS, AGAIN, WHAT TIME FRAME? 24 A WELL, AS IT SAYS, THIS RESEARCH WAS 2 5 INITIATED EARLY IN 1969 AFTER DEVELOPMENT AND 2 6 SUBSEQUENT CONFIRMATION OF SOREN JENSEN'S 27 IDENTIFICATION OF PCB'S RESIDUES IN FISH AND BIRDS IN 28 SWEDEN. HARTOLDMONOQ43627 3 566 1 Q THAT PARAGRAPH YOU READ IS THE SECOND ONE 2 THERE? 3 A YES . 4 THEY HAVE KIND OF AT LEAST TRIED TO 5 ALLUDE TO, UP TO THIS POINT IN TIME, TO THE 6 COMPLEXITY INVOLVED IN JUST SIMPLY DOING A PCB 7 ANALYSIS OR SHOWING THE PRESENCE OF PCB'S IN 8 ENVIRONMENTAL SAMPLES, WHAT YOU HAD TO DO TO THAT. 9 THAT IS WHAT I MEAN BY THE COMPLEXITY OF 10 THE PROBLEM. 11 THAT WAS ONE LEVEL OF COMPLEXITY. 12 THE OTHER KIND OF LEVEL OF COMPLEXITY WAS 13 TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN THE 14 ENVIRONMENT IN TERMS OF TRANSPORT PROPERTIES AND 15 WEATHERING PROPERTIES AND BIODEGRADATION, THINGS OF 16 THAT SORT. WE JUST DIDN'T REALLY KNOW WHAT WAS GOING 17 ON . 18 WE HAD TO FIGURE OUT WHAT WAS GOING ON. 19 SO THAT WAS ANOTHER LEVEL OF COMPLEXITY 2 0 ASSOCIATED WITH THIS. 2 1 AND IT JUST -- WE JUST REALLY WERE, AT 22 THAT POINT IN TIME, I GUESS, YOU KNOW, THAT IS 20, 25 2 3 YEARS AGO. 2 4 WE WERE JUST BEGINNING TO UNDERSTAND SOME 2 5 OF THE THINGS GOING ON ENVIRONMENTALLY. 2 6 Q WHEN YOU SAY THE "TRANSPORT," WHAT DO YOU 27 MEAN BY THAT? 28 A WELL, IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND HARTOLDMONOQ43628 3 567 1 HOW SOMETHING GETS FROM ONE PLACE TO THE OTHER WHEN 2 IT'S NOT SOLUBLE OR ANYTHING, NOT VERY VOLATILE. 3 THOSE ARE THE KIND OF PROPERTIES THAT PCB'S HAD. 4 THEY WERE HIGH BOILING, NOT SOLUBLE IN 5 WATER. 6 THEY WEREN'T INTENTIONALLY TRANSPORTED 7 ALL OVER THE PLACE. 8 SO IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND 9 HOW, IN THE MIDDLE OF THE OCEAN OR SOMEPLACE ELSE 10 LIKE THAT, THAT YOU COULD FIND PCB'S. 11 AND WE WEREN'T FINDING AROCLORS. WE WERE 12 FINDING PCB'S. 13 Q NOW, AS OF THE TIME YOU MADE YOUR 14 PRESENTATION TO THE JOINT TASK FORCE, SIR, HAD ALL 15 THE METHODOLOGY FOR ANALYSIS BEEN SET AND AGREED UPON 16 BY ALL THE ANALYTIC CHEMISTS? 17 A NO. 18 I THINK EVEN TODAY ANALYTICAL 19 METHODOLOGY, MEANS OF SEPARATING PCB'S AND 2 0 IDENTIFYING THEM AND QUANTIFYING THEM IS STILL 2 1 DYNAMIC IN A SENSE. 22 HOWEVER, TODAY, IN SOME AREAS, SOME OF 2 3 THE PROCEDURES WHICH ARE EMPLOYED HAVE BEEN CODIFIED 24 IN THE FEDERAL REGISTER AND ARE PART OF THE RECORD 25 PROGRAMS, THE TSCA PROGRAMS, THINGS OF THAT SORT. 26 YOU KNOW, THE DEVELOPMENT AND THE 27 UNDERSTANDING OF THE METHODOLOGY, HOW TO PUT SAMPLES 28 THROUGH FASTER, HOW TO HANDLE THE DATA BETTER, HOW TO HARTOLDMONOQ43629 3 57 1 1 THAT YOU WERE ABLE TO COME UP WITH IN THE LITERATURE 2 AS WELL AS WHAT YOU HAD DONE; IS THAT CORRECT? 3 A THAT IS CORRECT, 4 THOSE WERE THE RESULTS WE HAD FOUND, HAD 5 BEEN SUPPLIED TO US OR THAT WE HAD GENERATED 6 OURSELVES. 7 THE LIST WAS TO DETERMINE WHERE THE PCB'S 8 WERE FOUND, WITH WHAT EFFICACY AND WHETHER OR NOT IT 9 WAS A PCB OR AN AROCLOR OR JUST WHAT WAS IT. 10 Q AS OF THE END OF 1969, SIR, WERE YOU 11 AWARE OF ANY LAB THAT WAS DOING ANY MORE WORK THAN 12 YOU WERE IN TERMS OF ANALYSIS OF KNOWN AND UNKNOWN 13 SAMPLES IN THE ENVIRONMENT? 14 A NOT SPECIFICALLY FOR PCB'S, NO. 15 MONSANTO HAD THE ONE LAB THAT WAS REALLY 16 FOCUSED ON DOING PCB ANALYSIS. 17 MOST OF THE OTHER LABORATORIES WERE DOING 18 PESTICIDE ANALYSIS. 19 IN DOING THE PESTICIDE ANALYSIS THEY WERE 2 0 FINDING PCB'S. 21 BUT THE METHOD AND PROCEDURES THEY 22 EMPLOYED HAD NOT BEEN VALIDATED FOR PCB'S. 2 3 THEY HAD BEEN VALIDATED FOR PESTICIDES. 24 AS I SAID EARLIER, THESE FOLKS WERE 2 5 INTERESTED IN THE INTERFERENCE IT WAS CAUSING WITH 2 6 WHAT THEY WERE MEASURING FROM THAT VIEWPOINT ONLY. 27 BUT WE WERE MORE INTERESTED IN PCB'S AND 2 8 PCB'S ONLY. HARTOLDMON0043633 3572 1 ALL OF OUR PROCEDURES WERE VALIDATED FOR 2 PCB'S. 3 Q IN THE TIME FRAME, LATE '69, EARLY 70'S, 4 HOW MANY LABORATORIES THAT YOU WERE AWARE OF IN 5 CONNECTION WITH YOUR DIALOGUE WERE CAPABLE OF 6 ANALYZING PCB SAMPLES? 7 A THEY WERE PROBABLY A HANDFUL. 8 THEY WERE NOT MANY AT ALL THAT WERE 9 CAPABLE AND EXPERIENCED IN PCB ANALYSIS. 10 BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, SIMPLY THE FIRST 11 FINDING OF THOSE MATERIALS BY A PROCEDURE THAT WAS 12 MEANT FOR SOMETHING ELSE OCCURRED IN LATE 1966. 13 Q AND WE ARE TALKING WORLDWIDE? 14 A YES . 15 Q AND AS OF, LET'S SAY, THE END OF 1969, 16 EARLY 1970 HAD MONSANTO PROGRESSED BEYOND THE 17 METHODOLOGY AND ANALYTIC TECHNIQUES USED BY JENSEN 18 AND WIDMARK ACCORDING TO YOURUNDERSTANDING? 19 A CORRECT. 2 0 WE HAD ESTABLISHED THE BASIS THAT WAS TO 2 1 BE USED IN THE FUTURE FOR MOST IF NOT ALL OF THE 22 REGULATORY ANALYTICAL METHODOLOGIES USED TO MEASURE 23 PCB'S NOWADAYS. 24 Q YOU ARE SAYING THAT THE METHODOLOGIES 25 THAT YOU DEVELOPED AND HAVE DISCUSSED WITH US FORMED 26 THE FOUNDATION OF THE METHODOLOGY THAT HAS BEEN 27 APPROVED REGULATORILY TODAY FOR ANALYSIS OF PCB'S? 28 A THAT IS CORRECT. HARTOLDMONOQ43634 3 57 3 1 THESE WERE WIDELY SHARED WITH GOVERNMENT 2 AGENCIES, VIRTUALLY ANYBODY WHO WAS INTERESTED IN HOW 3 TO DO IT. 4 WE SHARED THAT EXPERIENCE WITH THEM. 5 Q AND PICKING UP, SAY, AROUND 1970, SHORTLY 6 AFTER YOU PREPARED EXHIBIT 110 HERE, SIR, TELL US 7 WHAT YOU WERE DOING IN THE EARLY 70'S IN CONTINUING 8 YOUR ANALYSIS OF SAMPLES CALLED KNOWN AND UNKNOWN IN 9 THE ENVIRONMENT OR ELSEWHERE? 10 A WE HAD JUST REALLY GOTTEN TO THE POINT 11 WHERE WE WERE FEELING VERY COMFORTABLE IN ANALYZING 12 ENVIRONMENTAL SAMPLES. 13 BY THAT, I MEAN WATER AND SOME OF THE 14 OTHER KINDS FOR PCB'S AND BEGINNING TO TRUST OUR 15 RESULTS IN TERMS OF HAVING ENOUGH PRACTICE TO EXECUTE 16 THE STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURES CORRECTLY. 17 AND, IN FACT, FOR MY OWN EDUCATION, I 18 LOOKED AT THE PUBLICATIONS AND I PLOTTED THE DATES 19 VERSUS THE YEAR, THE NUMBER OF PUBLICATIONS VERSUS 20 THE YEAR. 2 1 I THINK IN 1966 THERE WERE THREE 2 2 PUBLICATIONS NOTED ON PCB'S AND THEN IN 1967 I THINK 23 THERE WERE SOMETHING LIKE THREE AND THEN SEVEN IN 24 19 68 . 2 5 IN 1969 THERE WERE 93. 2 6 THE BULK OF THOSE PCB FINDINGS WERE 27 MONSANTO'S. 28 Q AND YOU CONTINUED THAT WORK ON IN THROUGH HARTOLDMONOQ43635 3 574 1 THE 1970'S? 2 A YES, SIR. 3 Q WERE YOU ALSODOINGBIODEGRADATION 4 STUDIES IN THE 1970'S? 5 A CORRECT. 6 ONCE WE HAD ESTABLISHED METHODOLOGIES, 7 THERE WERE -- THERE BECAME A FAIRLY LARGE NUMBER OF 8 PEOPLE INVOLVED IN PROVIDING CUSTOMER SUPPORT, 9 PROVIDING ENVIRONMENTAL ANALYSIS AND EXPANDING OUR 10 KNOWLEDGE OF PCB'S AND WHERE THEY WERE AT AND THE 11 FREQUENCIES, THINGS OF THAT SORT. 12 Q TAKING THE TIME FRAME LATE 60'S AND EARLY 13 70'S, SIR, HOW MANY PEOPLE AT MONSANTO WERE WORKING 14 WITH YOU ON THIS ANALYTIC EFFORT TO BOTH DEVELOP 15 EQUIPMENT AND METHODOLOGIES FOR ANALYZING BOTH 16 QUANTITATIVELY AND QUALITATIVELY THE SAMPLES? 17 A I WOULD GUESS IN ST. LOUIS AT OUR 18 LABORATORIES WE HAD PROBABLY 20 PEOPLE OR SO INVOLVED 19 IN THAT KIND OF THING, JUST DOING PCB ANALYSIS. 2 0 AND, IN FACT, WE WERE USING SO MANY 2 1 SOLVENTS THAT THE COMPANY WHO SUPPLIES THE SOLVENTS 2 2 ESTABLISHED AN OVERSIGHT LOCATION FOR THE SOLVENTS SO 23 THEY COULD DELIVER THEM TO US DAILY. 24 THE SOLVENTS WERE USED TO EXTRACT SAMPLES 25 TO OBTAIN THE PCB'S OUT OF THOSE SAMPLES. 26 MR. PREUSS: THANK YOU, SIR, NO, FURTHER 2 7 QUESTIONS. 28 THE COURT: MS. GRADY. HARTOLDMONOQ43636 3 57 5 1 MS. GRADY: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. 2 3 CROSS EXAMINATION 4 BY MS. GRADY: 5 Q GOOD AFTERNOON, DR. TUCKER. 6 A GOOD AFTERNOON. 7 Q I WOULD LIKE TO GO BACK AND TALK A LITTLE 8 BIT ABOUT THE CHRONOLOGY, ABOUT HOW YOU CAME TO THIS 9 PCB PROBLEM AND FILL IN A FEW SPECIFIC DATES. 10 NOW, YOU STARTED WORKING FOR MONSANTO IN 11 THE FOURTH QUARTER OF 1967, RIGHT? 12 A CORRECT, I BELIEVE IT WAS IN SEPTEMBER OF 13 1967 . 14 Q OKAY. AND YOU WERE FRESH OUT OF THE 15 UNIVERSITY OF IOWA? 16 A YES, I JUST COMPLETED MY PH.D STUDIES AND 17 SUBMITTED MY THESIS FOR APPROVAL. 18 Q BUT YOU HADN'T YET RECEIVED YOUR THESIS? 19 A THAT'S CORRECT. 2 0 Q AND YOUR FIRST ASSIGNMENT AT MONSANTO 21 DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH PCB'S, RIGHT? 2 2 A THAT'S CORRECT. 2 3 Q YOUR FIRST ASSIGNMENT WITH MONSANTO WAS 2 4 IN THE ATOMIC EMISSION AREA AND INVOLVED METAL 25 SPECTROSCOPY, RIGHT? 2 6 A YES . 27 Q METAL SPECTROSCOPY ISWHAT YOU HAD 28 ACTUALLY DONE IN YOUR GRADUATE WORK; IS THAT RIGHT? HARTOLDMONOQ43637 3576 1 A NO, THAT'S NOT TRUE. 2 I COULD SEE HOW YOU MIGHT SURMISE THAT, 3 BUT WHAT I DID PRIMARILY WAS PREPARE ORGANIC 4 COMPOUNDS THAT ARE KNOWN AS LIGGINS (PH) THAT COMBINE 5 WITH UNIQUE METTALINES AND FORM HIGHLY COLORED 6 SPECIMENS THAT COULD BE USED TO DETECT THE METTALINE S 7 IN VARIOUS DIFFERENT SAMPLES. 8 THAT IS DIFFERENT METAL AND SOURCE 9 SPECTROSCOPY. 10 Q WHAT YOU WERE DOING IN YOUR FIRST 11 ASSIGNMENT IS ABSORPTION SPECTROGRAPHY? 12 A THAT IS CORRECT. 13 Q YOU HAD PUBLISHED IN THE AREA OF THE 14 IDENTIFICATION OF METALS, RIGHT? 15 A YOU MEAN THE EARLIER PUBLICATIONS ON 16 CHELATES AND THINGS OF THAT SORT? YES. 17 Q I'M REFERRING TO YOUR DECEMBER 1960 18 ARTICLE IN ANALYTICAL CHEMISTRY. 19 A ON DETERMINATION OF IRON? 20 Q YES . 2 1 A YES, MA'AM. 22 Q CAN YOU TELL ME, IS IT THE "JOURNAL OF 2 3 ANALYTICAL CHEMISTRY"? 24 A IT'S JUST CALLED "ANALYTICAL CHEMISTRY," 2 5 NOT THE JOURNAL OF. 2 6 Q YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH THAT PUBLICATION? 27 A YES, MA'AM. 28 Q AND YOU HAD A SUBSCRIPTION TO THAT HARTOLDMON0043638 3 577 1 PUBLICATION? 2 A YES, MA'AM. 3 Q WHAT IS "ANALYTICAL CHEMISTRY," THE 4 PUBLICATION NOT THE FIELD? 5 A A PUBLICATION BY THE AMERICAN CHEMICAL 6 SOCIETY THAT PUBLISHES ANALYTICAL CHEMISTRY METHODS 7 AND IS FOLLOWED BY SCIENTISTS WHO ARE ANALYTICAL 8 CHEMISTS. 9 Q IS THAT A PEER-REVIEW JOURNAL? 10 A YES, IT IS PEER REVIEW, 11 Q SO YOU HAD THIS FIRST ASSIGNMENT THAT 12 INVOLVED ATOMIC ABSORPTION SPECTROMETRY AND THEN 13 ABOUT SIX MONTHS AFTER YOU ARRIVED AT MONSANTO YOU 14 WERE APPROACHED BY DR. KELLER WITH A NEW ASSIGNMENT, 15 RIGHT? 16 A I'M NOT SURE IF IT WAS EXACTLY SIX 17 MONTHS, BUT I DID THE ATOMIC ABSORPTION AND THEN I 18 THINK LATE '67, EARLY '68 I WAS GIVEN THE ASSIGNMENT 19 OF THE PCB STUDIES, YES. 2 0 Q WELL, YOUR BEST RECOLLECTION IS THAT IT 2 1 WAS SIX MONTHS OR LONGER AFTER YOU STARTED AT 2 2 MONSANTO THAT YOU WERE GIVEN THE ASSIGNMENT 2 3 CONCERNING PCB'S, RIGHT? 24 A THAT SOUNDS REASONABLE. 2 5 I HAVE NO REASON TO QUESTION THAT. 2 6 Q THAT WOULD TAKE US PAST 1967, RIGHT? 27 IF YOU STARTED IN SEPTEMBER OF 1967 AND 28 YOUR BEST RECOLLECTION IS THAT IT WAS AT LEAST SIX HARTOLDMONOQ43639 3 578 1 MONTHS BEFORE DR. KELLER APPROACHED YOU, THAT WOULD 2 TAKE US INTO 1968, RIGHT? 3 A SIX MONTHS WOULD TAKE US INTO 1968, YES. 4 Q OKAY. NOW, AT THE TIME YOU JOINED 5 MONSANTO YOU HADN'T DONE ANY WORK WITH 6 POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS, RIGHT? 7 A NO, MA'AM. 8Q AND YOU HAD HAD NO INVOLVEMENT 9 WITH MONSANTO'S PCB PRODUCT AROCLORS, RIGHT? 10 A NO, I DID NOT. 11 Q AND YOU HAD NEVER USED A GAS 12 CHROMATOGRAPH, RIGHT? 13 A I WAS FAMILIAR WITH THEM IN THEORY AND 14 HAD TAKEN COURSES IN WHICH I HAD USED A GAS 15 CHROMATOGRAPH, BUT I WASN'T EXPERIENCED IN GAS 16 CHROMATOGRAPHY, SO TO SPEAK. 17 Q YOU HAD USED A GAS CHROMATOGRAPH? 18 A YES . 19 Q OKAY. READING FROM DR. TUCKER'S 2 0 DEPOSITION TAKEN THE 23RD OF JUNE, 1992, STARTING AT 2 1 PAGE 33, LINE 24 AND CONTINUING THROUGH PAGE 34 LINE 22 5 . 2 3 THE COURT: GO AHEAD. 24 MS. GRADY: (READING): 25 "Q. HAVE YOU PERSONALLY 26 DONE ANY OF THE SORT OF WORK OR 27 WORK SIMILAR TO WHAT JENSEN AND 28 WIDMARK HAD DONE PRIOR TO YOUR HARTOLDMON0043640 3 579 1 CONVERSATION WITH DR, KELLER? 2 "A. NO. 3 "Q. HAD YOU EVER USED THE 4 GAS CHROMATOGRAPH? 5 "A. NO." 6 Q PRIOR TO YOUR ASSIGNMENT BY DR. KELLER, 7 YOU HAD NEVER USED A MASS SPECTROMETER, HAD YOU? 8 A NO . 9 AND IF I'M PERMITTED, I WOULD LIKE TO 10 EXPLAIN THE DIFFERENCE IN THOSE ANSWERS. 11 Q I'M SURE MR. PREUSS WILL ASK YOU ABOUT 12 THAT . 13 A FINE . 14 Q PRIOR TO YOUR ASSIGNMENT WITH DR. KELLER 15 YOU HAD NEVER USED AN ELECTRON CAPTURE DEVICE, RIGHT? 16 A THAT'S CORRECT. 17 Q NOW, WHEN DR. KELLER CAME TO YOU, WHAT HE 18 TOLD YOU HE WANTED YOU TO DO WAS TO DEVELOP 19 ANALYTICAL METHODOLOGIES FOR PCB'S, RIGHT? 20 A CORRECT. 2 1 Q WHEN DR. KELLER GAVE YOU THIS ASSIGNMENT 22 DID HE TELL YOU, SOMETIME IN 1968, DID HE TELL YOU 2 3 THAT HE PERSONALLY HAD BEEN CONVINCED OF THE VALIDITY 24 OF JENSEN AND WIDMARK'S WORK SINCE THE END OF 1967? 25 A NO. 26 Q DID YOU HAVE OCCASION AROUND THE TIME 27 WHEN YOU FIRST GOT YOUR ASSIGNMENT FROM DR. KELLER TO 2 8 HAVE CONVERSATIONS WITH DR. EMMET KELLY, MONSANTO 'S HARTOLDMON0043641 3 580 1 MEDICAL DIRECTOR ABOUT PCB'S? 2 A I DON'T RECALL MUCH, IF ANY, INTERACTION 3 WITH DR. KELLY. 4 Q NOW, YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO FIGURE OUT IF 5 WHAT JENSEN AND WIDMARK HAD FOUND WAS REALLY PCB'S, 6 RIGHT? 7 A THE INITIAL ASSIGNMENT WAS TO REPRODUCE 8 WHAT JENSEN AND WIDMARK DID AND TO VERIFY THAT WHAT 9 THEY FOUND WERE POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS, YES. 10 Q AND BY THE TIME YOU GOT YOUR ASSIGNMENT 11 IT WASN'T JUST JENSEN AND WIDMARK THAT HAD FOUND 12 PCB'S, RIGHT? 13 A I BELIEVE IN -- AT THAT POINT IN TIME 14 THERE HAD PROBABLY BEEN ABOUT THREE PUBLICATIONS 15 AVAILABLE, EITHER IN THE LITERATURE -- THEY WEREN'T 16 IN THE LITERATURE QUITE YET. 17 Q SO YOU WERE NOT ONLY SEEKING TO VALIDATE 18 JENSEN AND WIDMARK'S WORK YOU WERE LOOKING AT THE 19 WORKS OF HOLMES, SIMMONS AND TATTON, RIGHT? 20 A YES . 21 Q AND THOSE WERE GENTLEMENWHO WORKED FOR 2 2 THE LABORATORY OF THE GOVERNMENT CHEMIST IN LONDON 23 AND THEY, TOO, HAD FOUND PCB'S IN THE ENVIRONMENT, 24 RIGHT? 25 A THAT'S CORRECT. 2 6 I BELIEVE THAT -- I THINK THEY ALSO -- I 27 DON'T KNOW WHETHER THEY HAD DONE GC MASS SPEC WORK. 28 I KNOW THERE WERE A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT HARTOLDMONOQ43642 3 58 1 1 DEDUCED THAT, THAT THE THINGS THEY HAD BEEN SEEING, 2 THAT SOREN JENSEN AND WIDMARK HAD BEEN SEEING, "OH, 3 YEAH, THOSE MUST BE PCB'S." 4 I THINK THOSE WERE SOME OF THE OTHER 5 PEOPLE WHO DID ASPECT WORK, BUT I'M NOT SURE. 6 Q DO YOU RECALL THEY PUBLISHED THEIR WORK 7 IN OCTOBER OF 1967? 8 A NATURE, I BELIEVE IT WAS PUBLISHED. 9 Q THAT WAS PART OF THE WORK YOU LOOKED AT 10 AFTER YOU GOT YOUR ASSIGNMENT, RIGHT? 11 A YES, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN. 12 Q WHY DON'T WE GO AHEAD AND LOOK AT EXHIBIT 13 NUMBER 52. 14 IT'S PROBABLY IN THE FIRST BINDER. 15 A IT'S IN THE SECOND BINDER. 16 Q THE SECOND BINDER, SORRY. 17 A THAT'S NO PROBLEM. 18 Q DO YOU HAVE THAT IN FRONT OF YOU, 19 DR. TUCKER? 20 A YES, MA'AM, EXHIBIT 52. 2 1 Q OKAY. LOOK AT THE SECOND PAGE OF EXHIBIT 22 52 . 2 3 IT HAS A DATE DOWN AT THE BOTTOM. 24 OH, LET ME MOVE THIS WHITE BOARD. 2 5 DO YOU SEE THE DATE AT THE BOTTOM JULY 26 18 TH, 19 68? 27 A YES, MA'AM. 28 Q AND DOWN AT THE BOTTOM IT ALSO SAYS, HARTOLDMONOQ43643 3 58 2 1 "SOURCE E. WHEELER," THAT WAS ELMER 2 WHEELER - 3 A RIGHT. 4 Q -- "ANDSCOTTTUCKER," THAT*S YOU, RIGHT? 5 A CORRECT. 6 Q WHAT EXHIBIT 52 IS IS AN INTERNAL BUDGET 7 DOCUMENT THAT BUDGETS MAN-HOURS AGAINST TASKS, RIGHT? 8 A I THINK IT'S A MONTHLY SUMMARY BUT IT 9 DOES HAVE IT IN IT. 10 YES . 11 Q OKAY. AND ON THE SECOND PAGE OF EXHIBIT 12 58 WE SEE THE WORK THAT YOU WERE DOING, RIGHT, UNDER 13 "RESPONSIBILITIES"? 14 A YES . 15 Q IT SAYS, "REK," THAT IS DR. KELLER, 16 RIGHT? 17 A UH-HUH. 18 Q AND DR. KELLER WAS YOUR BOSS? 19 A YES . 2 0 Q "AND ST," THAT ISSCOTT TUCKER, THAT IS 2 1 YOU? 22 A YES . 23 Q AND IT SAYS THAT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY IS 24 TO ASSESS THE VALIDITY OF ANALYTICAL METHODS USED BY 2 5 WORKERS IN THE FIELD. 2 6 AND IT GIVES A DATE, A TARGET DATE OF 27 3-69? 28 A UH-HUH. YES. HARTOLDMON0043644 3 58 3 1 Q NOW, THAT IS REFERRING TO THE ASSIGNMENT 2 THAT DR. KELLER GAVE YOU, RIGHT? 3 A I BELIEVE IT'S REFERRING TO AN ASSIGNMENT 4 THAT DR. KELLER AND I HAD THAT DR. KELLER SHARED WITH 5 ME . 6 Q THAT WAS TO ASSESS THE VALIDITY OF THE 7 ANALYTICAL METHODS USED BY WORKERS IN THE FIELD WHO 8 WERE LOOKING AT PCB'S, RIGHT? 9 A CORRECT. 10 Q THIS WAS TO ASSESS THE VALIDITY OF JENSEN 11 AND WIDMARK'S WORK AND THE OTHER PEOPLE WHO BY 7-68 12 HAD REPORTED FINDING PCB'S? 13 A CORRECT. . 14 Q OKAY. NOW, DOES THIS 7-63, JULY '68 15 DOCUMENT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION IN ANY WAY ABOUT 16 WHEN YOU RECEIVED YOUR ASSIGNMENT FROM DR. KELLY? 17 A NOT REALLY. 18 THE ASSIGNMENT COULD HAVE OCCURRED 19 EARLIER. 20 NOT ACTUALLY. 21 . I KNOW IT WAS CERTAINLY BEFORE 3-69 AND 22 CERTAINLY BEFORE JULY 18, 1968. 23 Q HOW MUCH BEFORE JULY 18, 1968 YOU DON'T 24 KNOW? 2 5 A NO. 2 6 Q DO YOU REMEMBER THIS TARGET DATE OF 3-69? 27 A NO, I DON'T REMEMBER THAT TARGET DATE 2 8 SPECIFICALLY. HARTOLDMON0043645 3 584 1 Q BY MARCH, 1969 HAD YOU COMPLETED YOUR 2 ASSESSMENT OF THE VALIDITY OF JENSEN AND WIDMARK'S 3 WORK? 4 A I WAS TARGETED AT THAT POINT IN TIME TO 5 COMPLETE THAT. 6 I MIGHT SAY IT WASN'T JUST JENSEN AND 7 WIDMARK BUT WHOEVER WAS PUBLISHING MATERIAL IN THAT 8 AREA, 9 Q THERE WERE OTHERS? 10 A THERE WERE OTHERS THAT CAME ALONG. 11 Q BY MARCH, 1969, LOOKING FORWARD IN THE 12 CHRONOLOGY, DID YOU -- HAD YOU DETERMINED THE 13 VALIDITY OF THE PEOPLE IN THE FIELD, THE ASSIGNMENTS 14 IN THE FIELD WHO WERE REPORTING FINDING PCB'S IN THE 15 ENVIRONMENT? 16 A YES . 17 Q THE SECOND THING IT LISTS HERE WITH YOUR 18 NAME NEXT TO IT, SCOTT TUCKER, THESE OTHER PEOPLE, 19 W.R.R., THAT IS DR. RICHARD? 2 0 A RIGHT. 2 1 Q AND WHO WAS DR. RICHARD? 22 A DR. RICHARD WAS THE DIRECTOR OF THE 2 3 FUNCTIONAL FLUIDS GROUP. 24 Q I FORGOT TO ASK YOU, WHO WAS DR. KELLER, 2 5 YOUR BOSS? 2 6 A WHO WAS HE? 27 Q YES . 28 A HE WAS MY BOSS. HARTOLDMONOQ43646 3 585 1 HE WAS MANAGER OF WHAT WE CALL THE 2 APPLIED SCIENCES AT THAT TIME THAT WAS AN ANALYTICAL 3 DEPARTMENT THAT SUPPORTED THE ORGANICS DIVISION AND 4 THE FUNCTIONAL FLUIDS WAS A PORTION OF THAT 5 DIVISION. 6 Q OKAY. AND ELMER WHEELER, THIS IS E.W., 7 IS ELMER WHEELER, RIGHT? 8 A THAT IS CORRECT. 9 Q WHO WAS MR. WHEELER? 10 A HE WAS IN THE MEDICAL DEPARTMENT IN THE 11 TOXICOLOGY AREA, IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY. 12 Q NOW, IT ALSO LISTS YOUR ASSIGNMENT AT 13 THIS TIME, JULY OF '68, AS COLLECT INFORMATION ON ALL 14 WORK BEING DONE BY OTHERS IN THIS FIELD. 15 IT LISTS THE TARGET DATE FOR THAT 16 ASSIGNMENT AS CONTINUING? 17 A CORRECT. 18 Q IN THE SUMMER OF '68 WERE YOU GOING ABOUT 19 FINDING OUT ALL OF THE VARIOUS RESEARCH THAT WAS 20 BEING DONE ON PCB'S? 2 1 A YES . 22 Q HOW DID YOU GO ABOUT DOING THAT? 23 A WELL, BY MONITORING PUBLICATIONS, BY 24 TALKING TO PEOPLE WHO WERE ACTIVE IN THE FIELD AND IT 25 WASN'T JUST ME. 2 6 THERE WERE MANY OF THE PEOPLE WITHIN THE 27 COMPANY WHO VISITED SOME OF THE RESEARCHERS DOING 28 THAT KIND OF WORK. AND THAT INCLUDED AT SOME POINT HARTOLDMONOQ43647 3586 1 IN TIME VISITS TO JENSEN AND WIDMARK AND TO 2 RICHARDSON AND SOME OF THE OTHER FOLKS. 3 Q YOU NEVER VISITED DR. JENSEN, DID YOU? 4 A NO, MA'AM, I DID NOT. 5 Q AND THE VISITS YOU'RE REFERRING TO DIDN'T 6 TAKE PLACE UNTIL THE SUMMER OF '69, DID THEY? 7 A THERE WERE VISITS FROM THE PEOPLE IN THE 8 UNITED STATES AND THERE WERE VISITS FROM PEOPLE IN 9 EUROPE WHO ACTUALLY WENT AND TALKED TO WIDMARK AND 10 JENSEN. 11 Q DAVE WOOD, WE HAVE HEARD TESTIMONY IN 12 THIS CASE ALREADY, DAVE WOOD FROM MONSANTO'S EUROPEAN 13 OFFICES WENT OVER AND TALKED TO JENSEN ABOUT A MONTH 14 AFTER THE FIRST REPORT OF HIS RESEARCH? 15 A RIGHT. 16 THAT WAS IN -17 Q 1966, RIGHT? 18 A RIGHT. 19 Q ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT OTHER VISITS TO 20 JENSEN, OTHER THAN MR. WOOD IN DECEMBER, 1966 AND 21 DR. KELLER, DR. RICHARD AND MR. WHEELER IN THE SUMMER 22 OF '69? 2 3 A NO, I'M NOT. 24 Q DID YOU EVER CALL UP DR. JENSEN ON THE 25 PHONE AND TALK TO HIM ABOUT THIS RESEARCH? 2 6 A NO, I DID NOT. 27 Q OKAY. NOW, WHEN YOU GOT YOUR ASSIGNMENT 2 8 TO COLLECT INFORMATION ON ALL WORK BEING DONE BY HARTOLDMON0043648 3587 1 OTHERS IN THIS FIELD, WHAT DID YOU DISCOVER WAS OUT 2 THERE IN TERMS OF OTHER WORK? 3 THIS IS SUMMER OF 1968. 4 A NOT MUCH. 5 Q WELL, JENSEN ANDWIDMARK WERE OUT THERE, 6 RIGHT? 7 A YES . 8 THEY -- I'M NOT SURE EXACTLY WHEN THEY 9 ACTUALLY PUBLISHED IN THE LITERATURE, BUT WE HAD A 10 PRE-PUBLICATION FROM THEM. 11 Q AND THE FIRST NOTICE TO MONSANTO OF THEIR 12 WORK WAS IN NOVEMBER, DECEMBER, 1966, RIGHT? 13 A I GUESS IT WAS, YES. 14 Q OKAY. AND FROM THAT POINT FORWARD JENSEN 15 AND WIDMARK HAD CONTINUED TO DO RESEARCH, HADN'T 16 THEY? 17 A I GUESS THEY DID. 18 Q AND SO PART OF YOURCOLLECTING 19 INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THE FIELD 20 ABOUT PCB'S YOU GOT ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT 2 1 JENSEN AND WIDMARK WERE FINDING, RIGHT? 22 A AS THEY PROVIDED US INFORMATION, WE GOT 23 IT, YES. 24 Q AND WHAT THEY WERE FINDING WAS THEY WERE 2 5 CONFIRMING THEIR EARLIER RESEARCH REPORTS, RIGHT? 2 6 A I ASSUME THAT IS TRUE. 27 Q YOU DON'T RECALL? 28 A NO . HARTOLDMONOQ43649 3 588 1 I DON'T RECALL A CONTINUING STREAM OF 2 INFORMATION COMING OUT OF SWEDEN TO US. 3 BECAUSE I DON'T THINK THERE REALLY WAS. 4 AND THAT IS NOT THE WAY THAT THE EUROPEAN 5 FOLKS GENERALLY DID THINGS. 6 THEY DID A LOT OF THINGS AND THEN WHEN 7 THEY WERE SURE IT WAS RIGHT, THEY WOULD FINALLY 8 PUBLISH IT. 9 Q YOU ALSO DON'T RECALL CALLING JENSEN UP 10 AND YOU ASKING HIM WHAT RESEARCH? 11 A NO, I KNOW I DIDN'T CALL HIM UP. 12 Q IN ADDITION TO JENSEN AND WIDMARK, THE 13 FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICES WERE DOING RESEARCH ON 14 PCB'S IN THE SUMMER OF 1968, WEREN'T THEY? 15 A YES . 16 Q AND THEY HAD CONTACTED MONSANTO, HADN'T 17 THEY? 18 A THAT'S CORRECT. 19 Q AND WAS THAT THE RESEARCH ON FINDING 20 PCB'S IN BALD EAGLES? 2 1 A WE WERE WORKING WITH PEOPLE AT PATUXENT 2 2 WHO WERE INVOLVED WITH THAT PARTICULAR PROGRAM. WE 23 SUPPLIED THEM WITH AND DISCUSSED METHODOLOGIES AND 24 THINGS OF THAT SORT. 25 Q IN ADDITION TO FISH AND WILDLIFE, THE 26 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF FISHERIES WAS DOING RESEARCH ON 27 PCB'S IN THE SUMMER OF 1968, CORRECT? 2 8 A AT GULF BREEZE AND MOUND LABORATORIES, HARTOLDMON0043650 3 589 1 Q WEREN'T YOU FINDING PCB'S IN FISH IN LAKE 2 MICHIGAN? 3 A YES . 4 Q WERE THEY ALSO FINDING PCB'S -- WHERE IS 5 GULF BREEZE? FLORIDA, RIGHT? 6 A FLORIDA, RIGHT, PENSACOLA. 7 Q WERE THEY FINDING PCB'S IN FLORIDA? 8 A LET ME CLARIFYFINDING PCB'S. 9 AT THAT POINT IN TIME A LOT OF PEOPLE 10 WERE REVIEWING EARLIER WORK THAT WAS DONE FOR 11 PESTICIDES. 12 LOOKING AT THE RETENTION TIMES OF THE 13 PEAKS THEY SAW FOR THINGS THEY COULDN'T IDENTIFY AND 14 SAYING, "GEE, THOSE MUST BE PCB'S." 15 THERE WAS A LOT OF THAT GOING ON WHICH 16 WAS DEDUCTIVE LOGIC IN TERMS OF WHETHER OR NOT PCB'S 17 WERE PRESENT. 18 THERE WAS SOME WORK, NOT A LOT, GETTING 19 STARTED FOR ACTUALLY MEASURING PCB'S AND DEVELOPING 20 METHODOLOGIES FOR MEASURING PCB'S IN THESE. 2 1 SO THERE WERE BOTH THINGS GOING ON. 22 Q WHEN YOU SAY "MEASURING PCB'S," YOU KNOW 2 3 YOU'VE GOT PC B BUT YOU DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH YOU HAVE? 24 A WHAT I MEAN IS I HAVE DECIDED I WANTED TO 25 MEASURE PCB'S IN SOMETHING AND I HAVE THE METHODOLOGY 26 AND I KNOW IT WORKS SO I GO OUT AND COLLECT A SAMPLE 2 7 OR HAVE ONE COLLECTED AND I INTENTIONALLY MEASURE 28 THAT FOR PCB'S, NOT MEASURE IT FOR SOMETHING ELSE AND HARTOLDMONOQ43651 3 590 1 SAY OH, YEAH, THAT IS WHAT.THAT OTHER STUFF MIGHT 2 HAVE BEEN. 3 THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH DEDUCTIVE 4 LOGIC, IT'S JUST NOT ABSOLUTE AND IT NEEDS TO BE 5 CONFIRMED. 6 WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY IS ALL OF THESE 7 LABORATORIES WERE TRANSITIONING BETWEEN DOING 8 PESTICIDES AND PCB'S. 9 THERE WAS A LOT OF DEDUCTIVE LOGIC BEING 10 APPLIED TO CHROMATOGRAPHS BEING LINKED TO PESTICIDE, 11 THEN THEY WOULD SAY GEE WE HAVE PCB'S 12 MAYBE. THEN THEY WOULD VALIDATE THE PROCEDURES AND 13 HAVE TESTING ON THE PCB'S IN LABORATORY. 14 Q JENSEN AND WIDMARK CONFIRMED WHAT THEY 15 WERE SEEING WAS PCB'S POURING PCB'S INTO THE LKB-9000 16 AND MATCHING EXACTLY THEIR CHROMATOGRAMS BY WHAT THEY 17 WERE FINDING IN PINE NEEDLES AND IN EAGLE FEATHERS 18 AND IN INFANT HAIR, HADN'T THEY? 19 A JENSEN AND WIDMARK HAD TAKEN A SUBSET OF 20 THE SAMPLES. THEY HAD ANALYZED AND SUBJECTED THEM TO 21 THE MASS SPEC AND SHOWING THEY WERE SEEING OCTACHLOR 2 2 BIPHENYLS AND THOSE KIND OF THINGS IN THEM. 2 3 SO THEY HAD ESTABLISHED THE PRESENCE OF 24 SOME OF THOSE PEAKS THEY WERE SEEING THAT THEY 25 COULDN'T IDENTIFY IN THE ELECTRON CAPTURE AS BEING 2 6 PCB'S. 27 Q AND THEN THEY POURED A SAMPLE OF PCB'S 28 INTO THE LKB-9000, THE MACHINE THEY WERE USING, AND HARTOLDMONOQ43652 3591 1 FOUND THAT IT MATCHED EXACTLY WITH THE CHROMATOGRAMS 2 THAT WERE PRODUCED BY THEIR ENVIRONMENTAL SAMPLES, 3 RIGHT? 4 A NO. 5 Q OKAY. LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT EXHIBIT 36, 6 DR. TUCKER. 7 YOUR HONOR, THE PART OF THIS EXHIBIT I 8 WOULD LIKE TO SHOW DR. TUCKER IS A NOTICE DOCUMENT. 9 THE COURT: THAT MEANS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, 10 THAT, AGAIN, THIS DOCUMENT IS CONCERNED WITH WHAT 11 MONSANTO KNEW AND WHEN. 12 IT IS NOT ADMISSIBLE FOR THE TRUTH OF 13 WHAT IT SAYS. 14 Q DR. TUCKER, THE PART I WOULD LIKE YOU TO 15 LOOK AT IS THE SECOND PAGE OF LKB PRESS RELEASE, DOWN 16 AT THE BOTTOM? 17 A PAGE 2. 18 Q DOWN AT THE BOTTOM, THE PARAGRAPH THAT 19 STARTS, "ONCE THIS FACT HAD BEEN ESTABLISHED, AN 20 APPROACH TO INDUSTRY ELICITED THE ANSWER THAT PCB WAS 2 1 FAIRLY EXTENSIVELY USED AND WHEN A SAMPLE WAS 2 2 OBTAINED AND RUN THROUGH THE LKB COMBINED GAS 2 3 CHROMATOGRAPH MASS SPECTROMETER, IT WAS FOUND THAT 24 THE GAS CHROMATOGRAPH GAVE THE SAME RETENTION TIME 2 5 FOR BOTH THE EAGLE SAMPLE AND THE INDUSTRIAL 2 6 SAMPLE." 27 A I THINK THAT IS A MISQUOTE BY THE 28 MANUFACTURER, ACTUALLY. HARTOLDMONOQ43653 3 59 2 1 Q YOU ARE NOT FAMILIAR WITH ANY RESEARCH 2 THAT JENSEN AND WIDMARK DID WHERE THEY TOOK SAMPLES 3 OF PC B'S AND COMPARED THEM TO THE PCB'S SHOWING UP ON 4 THE CHROMATOGRAPHS FROM EAGLE FEATHERS? 5 MR. PREUSS: I WOULD LIKE TO OBJECT ON THE 6 BASIS THAT THAT IS NOT A NOTICE PURPOSE. 7 THE QUESTION WAS ASKED. 8 THE COURT: THE - 9 MR. PREUSS: IT WAS OFFERED FOR THE TRUTH OF 10 THE MATTER. 11 THE COURT: THE QUESTIONING WAS GOING TO THE 12 SAMPLES DONE BY THIS WITNESS AND HIS FAMILIARITY WITH 13 THE EXTENT OF THE SAMPLES. . 14 THE OBJECTION IS OVERRULED. 15 AGAIN, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THE TRUTH OF 16 THE STATEMENT IS NOT BEFORE YOU. 17 GO AHEAD, MS. GRADY. 18 Q BY MS. GRADY: ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH ANY 19 RESEARCH THAT JENSEN AND WIDMARK DID WHERE THEY TOOK 2 0 AN INDUSTRIAL SAMPLE OF PCB'S AND THEY POURED IT INTO 2 1 THE GC MS MACHINE AND COMPARED IT TO THE 22 CHROMATOGRAMS THAT WERE PRINTING OUT FOR THE EAGLE 23 FEATHERS? 24 A NO. NOT IN ANY PEER REVIEW GROUP 25 PUBLICATIONS. I'M AWARE OF THIS, NOW, BUT CERTAINLY 26 NOT ANY JOURNAL PUBLICATIONS IN WHICH THEY DISCUSS 27 THAT . 28 Q DID YOU DISCUSS WITH ANYONE WHO HAD HARTOLDMON0043654 3 59 3 1 TALKED, SINCE YOU DIDN'T YOURSELF, WITH JENSEN AND 2 WIDMARK, WHETHER THEY HAD DONE COMPARISONS BETWEEN 3 THEIR RESEARCH CHROMATOGRAPHS OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL 4 SAMPLES AND ACTUAL INDUSTRIAL SAMPLES OF PCB'S? 5 A NO, MA'AM, I DID NOT. 6 Q SO IN ADDITION TO THE WORK THAT YOU 7 BECAME FAMILIAR WITH IN THE SUMMER OF 1968 OF JENSEN 8 AND WIDMARK AND THE FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICES AND 9 THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF FISHERIES, SHELL IN ENGLAND, 10 WAS ALSO DOING RESEARCH PCB'S, RIGHT? 11 A YES . 12 Q AND YOU FAMILIARIZED YOURSELF WITH THAT 13 RESEARCH, RIGHT? 14 A YES . 15 Q THE OFFICE OF THEGOVERNMENT CHEMIST IN 16 ENGLAND WAS DOING RESEARCH ON PCB'S? 17 A THAT IS THE SAME ONE YOU JUST MENTIONED 18 IN LONDON, CORRECT? 19 Q THAT WASHOLMES,SIMMONS AND TATTON, 20 RIGHT? 2 1 A WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ONE SET NOT TWO. 22 IT SOUNDED LIKE YOU HAD TWO FOLKS WORKING 2 3 THERE. 2 4 THERE WAS ONE SET OF RESEARCHERS IN 2 5 LONDON THAT WERE PUBLISHING ON PCB'S. 26 Q THAT WAS HOLMES, SIMMONS AND TATTON? 27 A YES, MA'AM. 28 Q WHAT ABOUT HOLDEN AT THE DEPARTMENT OF HARTOLDMONOQ43655 3 594 1 FISH AND WILDLIFE? HE WAS PUBLISHING? 2 A HE COULD HAVE BEEN. 3 I THOUGHT HE WAS PART OF THAT GROUP. 4 Q DO YOU THINK YOU WERE PROBABLY FAMILIAR 5 IN THE SUMMER OF 1968 WITH THE WORK OF HOLDEN THAT 6 WAS BEING DONE ON FOB'S? 7 A YES . 8 Q AND THERE WAS WORK BEING DONE INTHE 9 NETHERLANDS BY PROFESSOR VAN GENDEREN, CORRECT? 10 A YES . 11 Q AND THAT WAS WORK BEING DONE AT THE MONK 12 WOODS EXPERIMENTAL STATION, CORRECT? 13 A YES . 14 Q AND THERE WAS WORK BEING DONE AT CORNELL 15 BY DR. PIKALL, P-I-K-A-L-L, RIGHT? 16 A WHAT YEAR? 17 Q THE SUMMER OF 1968. 18 A YES . 19 Q THERE WAS WORK BEING DONE AT THE SAN 2 0 DIEGO NATURAL HISTORY UNIVERSITY BY DR. KERVIN, 2 1 CORRECT? 22 A I WASN'T AWARE OF THAT. 23 Q HOW DID YOU GO ABOUTFIGURING OUT WHO WAS 2 4 DOING WORK ON PCB'S WHEN YOU GOT YOUR ASSIGNMENT TO 25 SURVEY THE FIELD? 2 6 A MOST OF THE INFORMATION WE HAD GOTTEN 27 WERE THROUGH MONSANTO'S CONTACTS WITH THE OUTSIDE 28 WORLD AS TO WHO WAS DOING WHAT. HARTOLDMON0043656 3595 1 PLUS A LOT OF THE FOLKS DOING THAT KIND 2 OF INFORMATION CAME TO US NATURALLY TO OBTAIN SAMPLES 3 AND TO OBTAIN INFORMATION. 4 Q DID YOU CONTACT DR. RISEBROUGH IN THE 5 SUMMER OF 1968? 6 A I HAVE HAD CONVERSATIONS WITH 7 DR. RISEBROUGH. 8 Q WAS THAT IN THE SUMMER OF 1968? 9 A I DON'T RECALL EXACTLY. IT COULD HAVE 10 BEEN . 11 Q YOU MENTIONED IN RESPONSE TO QUESTIONS BY 12 MR. PREUSS THAT THERE WAS SOME CONFUSION WITH THE 13 RESEARCH OF JENSEN AND WIDMARK ABOUT BIPHENOLS VERSUS 14 BIPHENYLS, CORRECT? 15 A YES, MA'AM. 16 Q YOU DIDN'T HAVE ANY OF THAT CONFUSION, 17 DID YOU? 18 A YES, I DID. 19 Q DID YOU EVER SEE ANYTHING THAT JENSEN AND 2 0 WIDMARK REPORTED A REPORT OF BIPHENOLS? 2 1 A NOT JENSEN AND WIDMARK. 22 Q NO, IT WAS RISING AND STRAND, MONSANTO'S 23 AGENT IN SWEDEN THAT HAD THE ONLY REFERENCE TO 24 BIPHENOLS, RIGHT? 25 A IF MY MEMORY SERVES ME CORRECTLY, I 26 BELIEVE THAT BIPHENOL CAME FROM A SWEDISH ARTICLE 27 AND/OR THE TRANSLATION OF IT. 28 AND THERE WAS SOME CONFUSION BECAUSE HARTOLDMON0043657 3 59 6 1 BIPHENOLS ARE VERY DIFFERENT THAN PHENYLS, YL'S 2 VERSUS OL'S, SO THERE WAS SOME CONFUSION FOR A MONTH 3 OR TWO ON STRAIGHTENING UP WHAT EVERYBODY WAS TALKING 4 ABOUT. 5 Q A MONTH OR TWO AFTER JENSEN AND WIDMARK 6 FIRST RECORDED THEIR RESULTS, YOU WERE STILL AT THE 7 UNIVERSITY OF IOWA, WEREN'T YOU? 8 A THEY REPORTED THEIR RESULTS IN LATE '66. 9 IF I JOINED MONSANTO IN SEPTEMBER OF '67, 10 I WOULD SAY THAT IS PROBABLY CORRECT. 11 Q SO BY THE SUMMER OF 1968 OR SOMETIME IN 12 1968 WHEN YOU GOT YOUR ASSIGNMENT FROM DR. KELLER, 13 YOU WEREN'T CONFUSED ABOUT BIPHENOLS VERSUS 14 BIPHENYLS, WERE YOU? 15 A I THINK THERE WAS STILL CONFUSION WITH 16 SOME FOLKS. 17 I HAD NOT EVEN BEGUN TO LOOK AT THE 18 PROBLEM SO IT DIDN'T MATTER WHETHER I WAS CONFUSED OR 19 NOT . 20 MY JOB WAS TO PUT TOGETHER THE 2 1 INSTRUMENTS AND WHEREWITHAL TO DO THE MEASUREMENTS 2 2 FOR PCB'S. 2 3 Q YOU TOLD MR. PREUSS, I THINK, THAT IN 2 4 RESPONSE TO HIS QUESTIONS THAT AT THE TIME YOU GOT 25 YOUR ASSIGNMENT FROM DR. KELLER THAT THERE WAS ONLY 2 6 ONE SCIENTIFIC INSTITUTE THAT HAD RECORDED FINDING 27 PCB'S; IS THAT RIGHT? 28 A THAT'S CORRECT. HARTOLDMON0043658 3 597 1 Q WHAT ABOUT HOLMES, SIMMONS AND TATTON? 2 A I WASN'T AWARE OF THOSE PUBLICATIONS AT 3 THAT POINT. 4 Q WELL, THAT CAME OUT IN OCTOBER, 1967, 5 RIGHT? 6 A SIMPLY BECAUSE A PUBLICATION CAME OUT ONE 7 DAY DOESN'T MEAN I SAW IT THE DAY IT CAME OUT. 8 I'M TRYING TO TELL YOU TRUTHFULLY WHERE I 9 WAS. SO -10 Q SOMETIME AFTER YOU TOOK YOUR ASSIGNMENT 11 FROM DR. KELLER, THOUGH, YOU BECAME AWARE THAT IT 12 WASN'T JUST ONE SCIENTIFIC INSTITUTE THAT WAS 13 REPORTING FINDING PCB'S, IT WAS ALL OF THESE 14 INSTITUTES WE HAVE JUST LISTED, RIGHT? 15 A IN 1966 I THINK WE HAD LOOKED AT ROUGHLY 1 6 THREE PUBLICATIONS THAT HAD BEEN OBTAINED. 17 IN 1967 I THINK THERE WAS MANY WHERE WE 18 HAD PAPER IN HAND AS PERHAPS THREE TO SEVEN. 19 Q WELL, WE ARE NOW IN THE SUMMER OF 1968. 20 SO WE ARE '67, '68, A YEAR AND A HALF 21 AFTER JENSEN AND WIDMARK HAVE REPORTED THEIR RESULTS. 22 SO BY THAT TIME THERE WERE NUMEROUS 2 3 SCIENTIFIC INSTITUTES THAT HAD REPORTED THEY HAD 24 FOUND PCB'S, RIGHT? 2 5 A THERE WERE NAMES OF SCIENTIFIC INSTITUTES 26 REPORTING THE PRESENCE OF PCB'S IN THE SAMPLES THEY 2 7 WERE ANALYZING, YES. 28 Q WHAT TESTING HAD MONSANTO DONE OF HARTOLDMON0043659 3 598 1 ENVIRONMENTAL SAMPLES FOR PCB'S PRIOR TO THE TIME YOU 2 GOT YOUR ASSIGNMENT FROM DR. KELLER? 3 A TO MY KNOWLEDGE, NONE. 4 Q SO WHEN YOU GOT YOUR ASSIGNMENT FROM 5 DR. KELLER YOU HADN'T WORKED ON A GAS CHROMATOGRAPH, 6 RIGHT? 7 A JUST IN CLASSES, NOT ACTUALLY IN 8 INDUSTRY. 9 THAT'S CORRECT. 10 Q YOU HADN'T WORKED ON A MASS SPECTROMETER? 11 A THAT'S CORRECT. 12. Q YOU HADN'T WORKED ON ANELECTRON CAPTURE 13 DEVICE? 14 A THAT'S CORRECT. 15 Q SO YOU WENT OUT AND DID A LITERATURE 16 RESEARCH TO FIND OUT WHO WAS DOING WORK ON THOSE 17 MACHINES', CORRECT? 18 A THAT'S CORRECT, 19 Q AND FOUND OUT THAT BOTH DOW CHEMICAL AND 20 SHELL OIL COMPANY HAD BEEN USING THE COMBINATION OF A 21 GAS CHROMATOGRAPH, MASS SPECTROMETER SINCE 1959, 22 RIGHT? 2 3 A IT COULD HAVE BEEN. 2 4 I WOULD LIKE TO SAY, I'M NOT SURE HOW YOU 2 5 KNOW I ESTABLISHED THAT. 2 6 BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE THAT RECOLLECTION. 27 Q WELL, WHAT IS YOUR RECOLLECTION OF WHAT 28 YOUR LITERATURE SEARCH PRODUCED? HARTOLDMON0043660 3 599 . 1 A I DON'T RECALL, DO YOU? 2 Q YOU DO RECALL THAT SHELL OIL COMPANY, 3 SINCE 1959, HAD REPORTED THAT THEY HAD SUCCESSFULLY 4 USED A GAS CHROMATOGRAPH AND A MASS SPECTROMETER, 5 TOGETHER, TO ANALYZE SAMPLES, RIGHT? 6 A I DON'T RECALL THAT SPECIFICALLY BUT I 7 DON'T DOUBT IT. 8 Q AND YOUR LITERATURE SEARCH DISCLOSED TO 9 YOU THAT BECKMAN INSTRUMENTS BACK IN 1957 HAD 10 SUCCESSFULLY COMBINED A GAS CHROMATOGRAPH AND A MASS 11 SPECTROMETER AND USED IT TO ANALYZE SAMPLES, RIGHT? 12 A I DON'T RECALL THAT. 13 Q YOUR LITERATURE SEARCH DISCLOSED TO YOU 14 THAT THE ELECTRON CAPTURE DEVICE WHICH WAS THE FIRST 15 MACHINE THAT YOU USED IN YOUR ASSIGNMENT WITH 16 DR. KELLER WAS DEVELOPED IN 1958, RIGHT? 17 A '58 AND '59.. 18 THAT'S CORRECT. 19 Q AND THAT COMMERCIAL GAS CHROMATOGRAPH 20 ELECTRON CAPTURE DEVICES I THINK WAS NUMBER ONE ON 2 1 THE LIST OF INSTRUMENTS YOU MADE FOR MR. PREUSS, HAD 2 2 BEEN AVAILABLE SINCE 1965, RIGHT? 2 3 A THAT'S CORRECT. 24 Q SO WHEN YOU SAID THAT ONLY JENSEN AND 25 WIDMARK WERE USING A GAS CHROMATOGRAPH WITH A MASS 2 6 SPECTROMETER, THAT WASN'T ACCURATE, WAS IT? 2 7 A I THINK IF YOU USED THE COMPLETE 2 8 STATEMENT I MADE, IT WAS VERY ACCURATE. HARTOLDMONOQ43661 3 600 1 THEY WERE THE ONLY INDIVIDUALS USING THAT 2 COMBINATION TO ANALYZE ENVIRONMENTAL SAMPLES AND TO 3 DETERMINE WHAT THE INTERFERENCES WERE TO THE 4 PESTICIDE ANALYSIS THAT THEY WERE DOING. 5 I DON'T DOUBT THAT A NUMBER OF PEOPLE'S 6 USED A GC CONNECTED TO A MASS SPECTROMETER FOR THE 7 PROCEDURES. 8 THEY CONTINUE TO BE USED TODAY FOR A 9 NUMBER OF OTHER THINGS BESIDES PCB ANALYSIS. 10 THE POINT IS JENSEN AND WIDMARK WERE THE 11 FIRST IN USING THAT PARTICULAR TECHNIQUE TO CONFIRM 12 THE PRESENCE OF PCB'S IN SAMPLES THAT THEY WERE 13 ANALYZING FOR PESTICIDES. 14 I THINK THERE IS NO QUESTION ABOUT THEM 15 BEING THE FIRST TO DO THAT. 16 Q SO WOULD IT BE ACCURATE TO SAY THAT THE 17 EQUIPMENT WAS AVAILABLE AND THE EQUIPMENT HAD BEEN 18 HOOKED UP IN THIS WAY THAT JENSEN AND WIDMARK HOOKED 19 IT UP TEN YEARS PRIOR TO WHEN THEY DID IT, 12 YEARS 2 0 PRIOR TO WHEN THEY DID IT? 2 1 THEY WERE THE FIRST ONE TO STICK SOME 22 ENVIRONMENTAL SAMPLES AND LOOK FOR PCB'S? 2 3 A I HEARD 1959, WHICH IS SEVEN YEARS PRIOR 24 TO JENSEN AND WIDMARK. 2 5 I ALSO HAPPEN TO KNOW THAT LKB, THAT WAS 2 6 PROBABLY ONE OF THE VERY FIRST TIMES THEY HAD 27 INTERFACED A GC WITH A MASS SPEC. 28 SO IT WASN'T VERY COMMON. HARTOLDMONOQ43662 3 60 1 1 Q OKAY. BUT JENSEN AND WIDMARK WEREN'T THE 2 FIRST PEOPLE TO USE THIS MACHINE, RIGHT? 3 A TO USE A MASS SPECTROMETER? 4 Q LOOKED UP TO A GAS CHROMATOGRAPH? 5 A NO, PROBABLY NOT. 6 Q AND AN ADDITIONAL PART OF THE ASSIGNMENT 7 YOU GOT FROM DR. KELLER INVOLVED TOXICOLOGY TESTS, 8 RIGHT? 9 A YES . 10 Q YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO WORK ON A PROJECT TO 11 START AN OUTSIDE TEST PROGRAM, IS THAT RIGHT? 12 A CORRECT. 13 Q DID THAT PROGRAM START IN AUGUST, 1968? 14 A IT DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU MEAN BY 15 "STARTED." 16 I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHEN IT DID START, 17 BUT I KNOW WHAT IT WAS. 18 Q WHEN DID THEY FIRST START THE FEEDING OF 19 PCB'S TO TEST ANIMALS? 2 0 A I THINK THAT WAS AROUND -- TOWARD THE END 2 1 OF 1968, IN THAT REGION. 22 Q OKAY. AND WERE YOU RESPONSIBLE FOR 2 3 OVERSEEING, IN PART, THE TOXICOLOGICAL TESTS BEING 2 4 DONE ON PCB'S? 25 A ABSOLUTELY NOT. 2 6 Q WHAT IS THIS A REFERENCE TO? 27 A IT'S A REFERENCE TO WHAT WE DID WAS WITH 28 THE TOXICOLOGY STUDY YOU HAD TO STUDY IT UNDER HARTOLDMON0043663 3602 1 TOXICOLOGY PEOPLE, PEOPLE WHO UNDERSTAND TOXICOLOGY. 2 WE INCLUDED ENOUGH X-RAY ANIMALS TO GENERATE SAMPLES 3 THAT WE COULD ANALYZE FOR PCB'S. 4 THAT HAD NOTHING REALLY TO DO WITH THE 5 ' TOXICOLOGY. 6 WHAT IT HAD TO DO WAS DETERMINING THE 7 AMOUNT OF DISTRIBUTION OF PCB'S IN ANIMALS DOSED WITH 8 IT. 9 Q SO YOU WERE GOING TO USE SAMPLES FROM THE 10 TISSUES OF THESE TOXICOLOGICAL EXPERIMENTS TO USE TO 11 TEST THROUGH YOUR PCB MACHINE; IS THAT RIGHT? 12 A YES. AND IN ADDITION TO THAT WE WERE 13 GOING TO USE THEM TO SEE EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED TO 14 PCB'S WHEN THEY WENT INTO A BIOLOGICAL SYSTEM. 15 Q NOW, HOLMES, SIMMONS AND TATTON HAD 16 ALREADY REPORTED THAT WHERE PCB'S WENT WAS INTO THE 17 LIVERS OF BIRDS, RIGHT? 18 A NO. 19 I THINK ACTUALLY WHAT THEY REPORTED WAS 2 0 THAT THESE WERE LIPID SOLUBLE MATERIALS AND THE MOST 2 1 OF THE TIME THEY CONCENTRATED IN THE ADIPOSE TISSUE 22 OR WHAT IS COMMONLY KNOWN AS FAT. 2 3 Q SO WHAT THEY HAD FOUND, YOU ARE SAYING, 2 4 IS THAT PCB'S ACCUMULATED IN THE FAT OF BIRDS AND 2 5 ANIMALS? 26 A IN FAT IN GENERAL, YES, CORRECT. 27 Q AND BY THIS POINT IN TIME HADN'T OTHER 28 RESEARCHERS ALSO REPORTED FINDING A HIGH HARTOLDMONOQ43664 3603 I 1 CONCENTRATION, 800 PARTS PER MILLION PCB'S IN FAT ON 2 SEALS AND PORPOISES? 3 A THEY WERE REPORTING A HIGH CONCENTRATION 4 OF PCB'S IN LIPID TISSUE OF ANIMALS, YES. 5 Q NOW, WHEN YOU FIRST GOT YOUR ASSIGNMENT 6 FROM DR. KELLER, 20 PEOPLE WEREN'T WORKING ON THAT 7 ASSIGNMENT, WERE THEY? 8 A THAT'S CORRECT. THEY SURE WERE NOT. 9 Q THIS DOCUMENT SHOWS THAT IT WAS YOU AND 10 DR. KELLER SPLITTING 1.1 MAN YEAR. 11 IS THAT WHAT YOU REMEMBER IN THE SUMMER 12 OF 1968? 13 A THAT WOULD BE ABOUT RIGHT. 14 ABOUT THAT TIME I HAD AT LEAST TWO 15 TECHNICIANS WORKING FOR ME. 16 AND WHILE THEY WEREN'T TOTALLY DEDICATED 17 TO THE PROJECT BECAUSE WE HADN'T BROUGHT THINGS TO 18 THE POINT WHERE WE NEEDED THEM FULL-TIME, THEY WERE 19 ALSO INVOLVED. 20 Q IN THE SUMMER OF 1968 WERE YOU SPENDING 2 1 ALL OF YOUR TIME ON THE PCB PROJECT? 22 A PRETTY CLOSE TO ALL MY TIME. 23 Q AND SO YOU WERE THE ONE AND DR. KELLER 24 WAS THE POINT ONE? 2 5 A DR. KELLER WAS MY BOSS. 2 6 DR. KELLER WAS THE MANAGER OF A SECTION 27 THAT HAD A NUMBER OF GROUPS OF ANALYTICAL CHEMISTS IN 2 8 IT . HARTOLDMON0043665 3 604 1 I WORKED AT THE BENCH LEVEL AND DID THE 2 ANALYSIS AND THINGS OF THAT SORT. 3 DR. KELLER OVERSAW US ALL. 4 Q BUT IN REFERENCE TO THIS 1.1 MAN YEARS, 5 YOU WERE SPENDING ALL OF YOUR TIME ON THE PROJECT BY 6 THE SUMMER OF 1968? 7 A I WOULD SAY KELLER WOULD BE AN 8 ADMINISTRATIVE VIEWPOINT WHERE HE WOULD BE PUTTING IN 9 A TENTH OF A MAN YEAR AND I WOULD PUT IN ALMOST A 10 FULL MAN YEAR. 11 40 HOURS A WEEK IS NOT WHAT WE WORKED. 12 I MEAN, YOU KNOW, IN THIS KIND OF 13 BUSINESS, A PROFESSIONAL MANNER, SOMETIMES SEVEN DAYS 14 A WEEK, 10 HOURS A DAY WE WOULD PUT IN. WE LIKED TO 15 WORK. 16 Q AND THEN THE OTHER COMMITMENT, AT LEAST 17 IN THE SUMMER OF 1968 WAS .1 MAN YEARS OF 18 DR. RICHARD'S TIME AND .3 MAN YEARS OF ELMER WHEELER 19 OR PAUL HODGES' TIME, RIGHT? 2 0 A CORRECT, THAT IS WHAT THE DOCUMENT 2 1 STATES. 22 Q SO AS OF THE SUMMER OF 1968, AS FAR AS 23 THESE TASKS UP HERE, ASSESSING THE VALIDITY OF THE 24 RESEARCH, CHECKING ALL OF THE INFORMATION THAT HAD 2 5 BEEN DONE ON PCB'S UP TO THAT POINT IN TIME, AND 2 6 STARTING THE TOXICOLOGICAL WORK, MONSANTO WAS 27 COMMITTING 1.5 MAN YEARS, CORRECT? 28 A IN ACCORDANCE WITH THAT DOCUMENT, YES. HARTOLDMON0043666 3 605 1 Q OKAY. DO YOU KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS DOWN 2 HERE, "SPONSOR"? 3 A I DON'T HAVE A RECOLLECTION AS TO WHAT 4 THAT MEANS. 5 Q NOW, WHEN YOU GOT YOUR ASSIGNMENT TO 6 ASSESS THE METHODOLOGIES FOR TESTING PCB'S YOU ONLY 7 GOT ONE OF THE OTHER MONSANTO SCIENTISTS WHO WERE 8 DOING GAS CHROMATOGRAPHIC WORK TO TEACH YOU HOW TO 9 USE THAT MACHINE, RIGHT? 10 A I WENT OVER TO DR. ED EMORY WHO WAS THE 11 HEAD OF OUR GAS CHROMATOGRAPHY GROUP AND I SPENT A 12 FAIR AMOUNT OF TIME DISCUSSING WHAT WE SHOULD DO AND 13 HOW WE SHOULD DO IT. SO THAT'S RIGHT. 14 Q AND YOU DISCOVERED IN SEARCHING AROUND 15 MONSANTO FOR THE APPROPRIATE EQUIPMENT THAT MONSANTO 16 ALREADY HAD AN ELECTRON CAPTURE DEVICE; IS THAT 17 RIGHT? 18 A THEY HAD AN ELECTRON CAPTURE DETECTOR 19 THAT WASN'T CURRENTLY HOOKED UP TO AN INSTRUMENT OR 20 IN USE. 2 1 Q SO YOU HOOKED IT UP TO THE GAS 22 CHROMATOGRAPH. 2 3 WHAT DID YOU DO THEN? 24 A WELL, ACTUALLY ED EMORY, MYSELF AND 2 5 ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL, ONE OF HIS TECHNICIANS, HOOKED IT 26 UP TO A GAS CHROMATOGRAPH AND GOT IT GOING. 2 7 WHAT DID I DO NEXT AFTER I GOT IT GOING? 2 8 Q DID YOU RUN SAMPLES THROUGH IT? HARTOLDMONOQ43667 3 606 1 A CERTAINLY NOT. 2 WE RAN STANDARDS THROUGHIT, KNOWNS 3 THROUGH IT, BUT WE DIDN'T RUN SAMPLES THROUGH IT. WE 4 WEREN'T PREPARED TO RUN SAMPLES THROUGH IT AT THAT 5 TIME . 6 Q WAS PART OF YOUR JOB FOR DR. KELLER TO 7 DETERMINE WHAT ADDITIONAL EQUIPMENT HAD TO BE 8 PURCHASED? 9 A YES . 10 Q AND HOW DID YOU GO ABOUT DOING THAT, 11 DR. TUCKER? 12 A I WENT OVER WHAT TECHNIQUES PEOPLE HAD 13 USED AND WHAT I THOUGHT SHOULD BE DONE AND WHAT I 14 WOULD NEED TO DO. 15 I MADE A LIST OF THAT, PRESENTED IT TO 16 DR. KELLER. 17 WE GOT DOLLARS AND HOW MUCH IT WOULD COST 18 AND DELIVERIES AND WE DECIDED WHAT WE NEEDED TO DO. 19 HE WENT WHEREVER HE WENT TO GET 20 PERMISSION TO GET THOSE KINDS OF THINGS. 21 ULTIMATELY WE GOT THEM. 22 Q YOU WERE THE POINT PERSON FOR DETERMINING 23 WHAT ADDITIONAL EQUIPMENT MONSANTO NEEDED TO BUY, 24 RIGHT? 25 A I WAS THE INITIAL PERSON WHO SUGGESTED 26 WHAT WE NEEDED. 27 THAT'S THE POINT PERSON, YES. 28 Q AND THERE WAS SOME SORT OF BUDGETARY HARTOLDMON0043668 3 607 1 PROCESS YOU HAD TO GO THROUGH WITH MONSANTO TO BUY 2 THE EQUIPMENT? 3 A ABSOLUTELY, YES. 4 Q YOU WROTE UP THE BUDGET REQUEST FOR THE 5 NEW EQUIPMENT, RIGHT? 6 A I WROTE UP, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU GO TO THE 7 STORE AND BY SOMETHING, YOU WRITE UP A SHOPPING LIST 8 AND PUT THE ESTIMATED PRICES OVER. 9 YOU ADD IT UP AND YOU SAY, "HERE IS WHAT 10 WE NEED. THIS IS ABOUT HOW MUCH IT WILL COST." 11 Q AND WHAT YOU WANTED WAS A BIO-MEDICAL GAS 12 CHROMATOGRAPH, AN ALL GLASS SYSTEM, RIGHT? 13 A YES, MA'AM. 14 Q AND HOW MUCH DID THAT COST? 15 A YOU KNOW, I DON'T REALLY RECALL THE EXACT 16 NUMBER, BUT I WOULD GUESS SOMEWHERE IN THE RANGE OF 17 20 TO 40,000, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. 18 Q AND WHEN DID YOU PURCHASE THAT GAS 19 CHROMATOGRAPH WITH ELECTRON CAPTURE DEVICE? 20 A DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIME. 2 1 Q WHAT PERIOD OF TIME? 22 A THE PERIOD OF TIME YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, 2 3 PROBABLY IN 19 -- SOMETIME IN 1968. 24 Q CAN YOU BE ANY MORE SPECIFIC? 2 5 A NO, I CAN'T. 26 THAT WAS 25 YEARS AGO. 27 Q IT'S A LONG TIME AGO AND I APPRECIATE YOU 28 GIVING US YOUR BEST RECOLLECTION. HARTOLDMONOQ43669 3 609 1 A INSTRUMENTS NOWADAYS COST IN THE ORDER OF 2 40,000 SO I JUST ASSUMED IT WAS LIKE 20,000, 3 SO IF IT WAS 7,000, THAT'S FINE. 4 Q OKAY. THIS DOCUMENT IS DATED 8-28-68. 5 SO YOU DIDN'T PURCHASE THE ELECTRON 6 CAPTURE -- THE GAS CHROMATOGRAPH WITH ELECTRON 7 CAPTURE DEVICE AT THE BEGINNING OF 1968, DID YOU? 8 A I WOULD GUESS NOT, BY THIS INFORMATION 9 HERE . 10 Q AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE FIRST PAGE OF THIS 11 DOCUMENT, IT HAS SOME HANDWRITING ON IT. 12 DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT HANDWRITING? 13 A NO, I DON'T RECOGNIZE IT. 14 Q OKAY. SO SOMETIME AFTER 8-28-68, THE 15 MACHINE THAT YOU USED TO TEST ENVIRONMENTAL SAMPLES 16 WAS PURCHASED, RIGHT? 17 A THE SECOND INSTRUMENT. 18 Q OKAY. AND MEANING YOU HAD THE ONE THAT 19 WAS -- THAT YOU DISCOVERED WHEN YOU SURVEYED WHAT 2 0 MONSANTO HAD IN-HOUSE, YOU FOUND A GAS CHROMATOGRAPH 21 AND YOU HOOKED UP AN ELECTRON CAPTURE DEVICE TO IT? 22 A THAT'S CORRECT. 2 3 Q BUT YOU NEVER USED THAT TO TEST 24 ENVIRONMENTAL SAMPLES? 25 A I DON'T THINK SO. WE USED IT FOR METHODS 2 6 DEVELOPMENT. 27 Q CAN YOU TAKE A LOOK AT THE SECOND PAGE OF 2 8 THIS . HARTOLDMONOQ43671 3 611 1 BETWEEN THE TWO. 2 AND IT WAS IMPORTANT THAT THAT CONNECTION 3 BE ESTABLISHED AS TO WHAT IT WAS, AND THAT THESE KIND 4 OF THINGS WERE NEEDED TO DO THAT. 5 Q AND THAT WAS BECAUSE AROCLORS WERE A 6 SUBSTANTIAL PERCENTAGE OF THE PRODUCT LINE OF 7 MONSANTO IN THE FALL OF 1968, RIGHT? 8 A AROCLORS -- YOU MEAN AROCLORS WERE A VERY 9 SIGNIFICANT PRODUCT TO MONSANTO? 1 0 Q MONSANTO SOLD A LOT OF AROCLORS. 11 A YES, MONSANTO WAS THE SOLE U.S. 12 MANUFACTURER OF AROCLORS. 1 3 Q SO IF THERE WAS A PROBLEM WITH AROCLORS, 14 THAT WAS A BIG PROBLEM FOR MONSANTO, RIGHT? 15 A IT WAS A PROBLEM FOR MONSANTO, YES. 16 Q WHAT IS "RESTRICTIVE LEGISLATION WILL BE 17 PASSED UP TO THIS POINT IN THE FALL OF 1968"? 18 A I THINK WHAT IT BASICALLY SAYS IS IT'S TO 19 AVOID RESTRICTIVE LEGISLATION. 2 0 THE BEST WAY I KNOW TO AVOID RESTRICTIVE 21 LEGISLATION IS TO HAVE THE PROPER INFORMATION 22 PROVIDED TO THE PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING THE LEGISLATION 2 3 SO THAT THEY CAN PREPARE LEGISLATION THAT IS PROPER. 2 4 BECAUSE IF THEY DON'T KNOW ANYTHING, THEY 25 HAVE A TENDENCY TO BE, YOU KNOW, VERY, VERY, VERY 2 6 ULTRA-RESTRICTIVE. 27 WHEREAS, IF THEY HAVE THE FACTS THEY CAN 28 MAKE LEGITIMATE DECISIONS RELATIVE TO WHAT NEEDS TO HARTOLDMON0043673 3 6 12 1 BE DONE. 2 I THINK THAT IS BASICALLY WHAT IT MEANS. 3 Q SO YOUR CONCERN WAS THAT IF THERE WAS A 4 PROBLEM WITH PCB'S, YOU MIGHT BE LEGISLATED OUT OF 5 BUSINESS, CORRECT? 6 A THAT CERTAINLY WASN'T MY CONCERN. 7 THERE WERE CERTAINLY PEOPLE IN THE 8 BUSINESS THAT HAD THAT CONCERN. BUT MY JOB WAS TO 9 PROVIDE THE INFORMATION THAT WAS GOING ON AND TO 10 PROVIDE INFORMATION TO WHO WAS MAKING THE DECISIONS 11 RELATIVE TO WHAT WAS TO BE DONE IN THE FUTURE. 12 Q WHEN CONGRESS DID LEGISLATE CONCERNING 13 PCB'S, THEY LEGISLATED PCB'S OUT OF EXISTENCE, DIDN'T 14 THEY? 15 A NO, THEY DID NOT, IN A SENSE. 16 MONSANTO WITHDREW FROM THE MANUFACTURE OF 17 PCB'S PRIOR TO ANY LEGISLATION, THE TOXIC SUBSTANCES 18 ACT, THINGS OF THAT SORT. 19 I DON'T THINK THEY -- I DON'T UNDERSTAND 2 0 WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO SAY HERE. 21 Q WELL, TSCA SAID, MADE IT ILLEGAL TO 22 MANUFACTURE AND SELL PCB'S, CORRECT? 23 A THEY DID, YES. 24 Q OKAY. SO IT'S SOME TIME NOW IN THE FALL 25 OF 1968. THE BUDGET REQUESTS WENT THROUGH FOR $7,000 26 TO BUY THIS GAS CHROMATOGRAPH WITH AN ELECTRON 27 CAPTURE DEVICE HOOKED UP TO IT, RIGHT? 28 A TSCA, THE TSCA ACT DIDN'T OCCUR IN 1968. HARTOLDMON0043674 3613 1 THAT WAS MUCH LATER. 2 I DON'T WANT TO CONFUSE THAT ISSUE. 3 Q I THINK I SAID '78. 4 A OKAY, GOOD. 5 THANK YOU. 6 Q TSCA WAS PASSED IN '76, CORRECT? 7 A IN THAT RANGE, YES. 8 Q SO THE BUDGET REQUEST FOR $7,000 WENT 9 THROUGH AND YOU BOUGHT THE GAS CHROMATOGRAPH WITH AN 10 ELECTRON CAPTURE DEVICE ACCOUNT, RIGHT? 11 A YES . 12 Q AND THIS WAS IN THE FALL OF '68? 13 A YES . 14 Q 1 5 IT? AND HOW LONG DID IT TAKE FOR YOU TO GET 16 A I WOULD GUESS A NORMAL DELIVERY WOULD BE 17 FOUR TO SIX WEEKS. 18 Q SO SOMETIME IN OCTOBER OF 1968 YOU GOT 19 THE GAS CHROMATOGRAPH WITH ELECTRON CAPTURE DEVICE? 20 A OKAY . 2 1 Q IS THAT RIGHT? 2 2 A IT'S OKAY, YES, FOUR TO SIX WEEKS LATER, 23 AFTER IT WAS ORDERED. 24 Q AND AFTER YOU RECEIVED IT YOU COULDN'T 2 5 START USING IT RIGHT AWAY BECAUSE YOU HAD TO, AS YOU 2 6 EXPLAINED IN YOUR QUESTIONING BY MR. PREUSS, YOU HAD 2 7 TO UNPACK IT AND SET IT UP AND CALIBRATE IT AND MAKE 28 SURE IT WAS WORKING PROPERLY, RIGHT? HARTOLDMON0043675 3 614 1 A YES, MA'AM. 2 Q SO WHAT IS YOUR BEST ESTIMATE, NOW THAT 3 WE HAVE WORKED THROUGH THIS CHRONOLOGY, FOR WHEN YOU 4 STARTED PUTTING ENVIRONMENTAL SAMPLES INTO THE 5 MACHINE? 6 A MY GUESS WOULD BESOMETIME IN LATE '68, 7 EARLY '69, IN THAT REGION. 8 Q OKAY. SO THE FIRST TIME THAT YOU KNOW OF 9 THAT MONSANTO DID ENVIRONMENTAL TESTS OF MATERIALS TO 10 DETERMINE WHETHER THEY HAD PCB'S IN THEM WAS IN LATE 11 1968, RIGHT? 12 A YES . 13 Q SO THAT IS TWO YEARS AFTER JENSEN AND 14 WIDMARK ANNOUNCED THEIR RESULTS AND MONSANTO LEARNED 15 OF THEM, RIGHT? 16 A YES . 17 Q LET'S LOOK AT ANOTHER DOCUMENT, 18 DR. TUCKER. 19 LET'S LOOK AT EXHIBIT 57. 20 IS THAT IN THE SAME BOOK? 21 A NO, MA'AM. 22 THIS GOES THROUGH 50. 2 3 LET ME GET IT. 2 4 5 7? 2 5 Q RIGHT. 2 6 THAT IS DATED OCTOBER 21, 1968? 27 A THAT'S CORRECT. 2 8 Q AND WHAT IT IS REPORTING ON IS HARTOLDMONOQ43676 3 6 15 1 DR. RISEBROUGH'S RESEARCH CONCERNING FINDING PCB'S IN 2 BIRDS IN CALIFORNIA, RIGHT? 3 A IT'S -- IT DELINEATES THE PUBLICATION 4 OBTAINED FROM MR. SPENCER REGARDING INFORMATION THAT 5 RISEBROUGH WAS GENERATING ON THE SUBJECT. 6 Q RIGHT. AND WHAT IT SAYS IN THE LAST 7 PARAGRAPH THERE IS, IN A FEW WORDS, "RISEBROUGH HAS 8 FOUND PCB'S ALONG WITH CHLORINATED PESTICIDES IN A 9 NUMBER OF SPECIES OF FISH AND BIRDS ALONG THE 10 CALIFORNIA COAST AS WELL AS IN WATERS OFF OF BAJA 11 CALIFORNIA AND CENTRAL AMERICA. HE FURTHER REPORTS 12 PCB'S IN FISH FROM THE CHANNEL ISLANDS AND PUGET 13 SOUND. AND THEN IT SAYS PCB WAS DETECTED IN THE 14 LIVER OF TUNA TAKEN FROM THE GALAPAGOS ARCHIPELAGO. 15 "SCOTT TURNER WILL SCRUTINIZE THE 16 ANALYTICAL ASPECTS AND PARTICULARLY THE VALIDITY OF 17 SOME OF THE ASSUMPTIONS MADE BY THE AUTHOR." 18 A RIGHT. SCOTT TURNER IS SCOTT TUCKER 19 WHICH IS ME. 2 0 THIS IS THE PRESENTATION THAT HE GAVE AND 21 SAID THAT IT IS A PRIVILEGED SOURCE AND IF HE WENT 22 PUBLIC WITH THE SOURCE IT CAME FROM, THE SOURCE WOULD 2 3 REFUSE TO GIVE IT TO HIM IN THE FUTURE IF HE 2 4 DISCLOSED WHO HAD GIVEN IT TO HIM. 2 5 IT WAS A REAL UNDOCUMENTED TENTATIVE 26 THING, BUT, YES I WAS TO LOOK AT THAT AND TRY TO 27 ESTABLISH THE VALIDITY OF WHAT THE RESEARCH WAS DOING 28 IN REGARD TO REALITY. YES. HARTOLDMONOQ43677 3616 1 Q DID YOU GO OUT TO CALIFORNIA AND COLLECT 2 FISH SAMPLES AND BIRD SAMPLES TO RUN THEM THROUGH THE 3 MACHINE THAT YOU WERE SETTING UP? 4 A FOR PCB'S? 5 Q YES . 6 A NO, WE DID NOT. 7 Q DR. RISEBROUGH'S RESEARCH WAS PUBLISHED 8 IN DECEMBER OF 1968, RIGHT? 9 A YES . 10 Q AND DID YOU CALL UP DR. RISEBROUGH AND 11 HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM ABOUT HIS TESTING 12 METHODOLOGIES? 13 A I DID NOT BUT PEOPLE IN OUR COMPANY DID 14 HAVE CONVERSATIONS WITH DR. RISEBROUGH AND 15 DR. RISEBROUGH NEVER CONFIRMED THE PRESENCE OF PCB'S 16 IN ANYTHING BY MASS SPECTROMETRY. 17 HE USED DEDUCTIVE LOGIC TO SAY PCB'S WERE 18 PRESENT IN THINGS. 19 Q MEANING THAT WHAT DR. RISEBROUGH DID WAS 20 HE RAN CHROMATOGRAPHS WHICH WERE THESE THINGS THAT I, 21 AT LEAST BEING FROM CALIFORNIA LOOK LIKE SEISMOGRAPH 22 CHARTS, HE RAN THOSE ON FISH AND BIRD SAMPLES FROM 23 CALIFORNIA AND OTHERS PLACES AND HE COMPARED THOSE TO 24 CHROMATOGRAPHS FROM MONSANTO PRODUCTS, RIGHT? 25 A WHICH WERE OBTAINED AT A LATER DATE AND 26 COMPARED TO INFORMATION GENERATED EARLIER. 27 SO HE DETERMINED DEDUCTIVELY THAT PCB'S 28 COULD BE PRESENT IN THE SAMPLES THAT HE WAS ANALYZING HARTOLDMON0043678 3 618 1 DEGREE. THEY WEREN'T IDENTICIAL. 2 THEY WERE SIMPLY NOT IDENTICAL. 3 Q BUT THEY SHOWED PCB'S PEAKS, RIGHT? 4 A THEY SHOWED PEAKS THAT COINCIDED WITH 5 SOME OF THE PCB'S PRESENT IN THE AROCLOR MATERIALS WE 6 PROVIDED THEM. 7 SO HE DEDUCED THAT THOSE WERE PCB'S. 8 THAT IS A LOGICAL DEDUCTION BUT IT'S FAR 9 FROM PROOF. 10 IT NEEDS TO BE CARRIED THAT ONE STEP 11 FURTHER WHICH OTHER RESEARCHERS DID. 12 Q LET HE LOOK AT THE NEXT EXHIBIT WHICH IS 13 EXHIBIT 61. 14 A YES, MA'AM. 15 Q I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU A FEW QUESTIONS 16 ABOUT THIS, DR. TUCKER. 17 A YES, MA'AM. 18 Q NOW, THIS WORK DESCRIBED IN THE FIRST 19 PARAGRAPH, DR. CALANDRA, HE WORKED FOR INDUSTRIAL 20 BIO-TEST, RIGHT? 2 1 A DR. CALANDRA WAS THE PRESIDENT OF 22 INDUSTRY BIO-TEST, RIGHT. 2 3 Q AND INDUSTRIAL BIO-TEST WAS THE OUTSIDE 24 LAB THAT MONSANTO HIRED TO DO TOXICOLOGICAL WORK ON 2 5 PCB'S, RIGHT? 2 6 A YES, THAT'S RIGHT. 2 7 Q THE TOXICOLOGICAL WORK WHERE PCB'S WERE 28 FED TO DOGS AND TO CHICKENS AND TO RATS AND OVER HARTOLDMON0043680 3619 1 VARYING PERIODS OF TIME AND THEN THE ANIMALS WERE 2 EXAMINED TO SEE IF THE PCB'S HAD AN EFFECT ON THEM, 3 RIGHT? 4 A CORRECT. 5 THEY WERE ALSO LOOKED AT FOR TOXICOLOGY 6 PROPERTIES WHICH IS WHAT THE REAL STUDY WAS ABOUT. 7 Q BUT FOR YOUR PURPOSES, I TAKE IT, WHAT 8 YOU WERE INTERESTED IN IS JUST GETTING TISSUE SAMPLES 9 THAT YOU COULD RUN THROUGH YOUR MACHINE TO VALIDATE 10 YOUR MACHINE? 11 A THAT IS CORRECT. 12 YOU HAD ASKED EARLIER WHAT MY INVOLVEMENT 13 WAS WITH TOXICOLOGY. I WAS CAREFUL TO TELL YOU I AM 14 NOT A TOXICOLOGIST. 15 MY INVOLVEMENT WAS TO MAKE SURE THERE 16 WERE ENOUGH ANIMALS INVOLVED IN THE STUDIES TO GIVE 17 US ENOUGH TISSUE SAMPLES TO PROVIDE PCB METHODOLOGY. 18 Q THIS SAYS THAT "DR. CALANDRA IS TO BEGIN 19 30-DAY RANGE FINDING TOXICITY STUDIES WITH RATS ON 20 EACH OF THE FOUR AROCLORS WHICH HAVE BEEN SENT TO 21 HIM. " 22 NOW, BACK IN THAT BUDGET DOCUMENT WE 2 3 LOOKED AT EARLIER WHICH WAS EXHIBIT 768, THE TARGET 24 DATE FOR STARTING THE OUTSIDE TEST PROGRAM WAS AUGUST 25 15, 1968. 26 IS IT YOUR RECOLLECTION THAT THE OUTSIDE 27 TESTING DIDN'T START UNTIL DECEMBER, 1968? 2 8 A THAT WOULD BE MY RECOLLECTION WITH THIS HARTOLDMON0043681 3 62 0 1 MEMO, YES. 2 Q OKAY. DOWN HERE AT THE BOTTOM, I GUESS 3 THERE WAS ANOTHER OUTSIDE RESEARCHER THAT WAS ALSO 4 DOING SOME TESTS; IS THAT RIGHT, FRED YOUNGER OF 5 YOUNGER LABS? 6 A YES . 7 Q AND IT SAYS THAT "FRED WAS TO PROVIDE US 8 SOME SPECIMENS FROM SOME RATS WHICH HE IS CURRENTLY 9 DOSING WITH ONE OF THE AROCLORS AND A LUBRICATING 10 OIL" ? 11 A YES . 12 Q 13 WAS? DO YOU KNOW WHAT LUBRICATING OIL THAT 14 A USUALLY WHEN YOU DOSE ANIMALS, THEY CALL 15 IT GRANAGE, THEY PUT A TUBE DOWN THE THROAT AND FORCE 16 THE STUFF DOWN IN. IT'S USUALLY DISSOLVED IN MINERAL 17 OIL WHICH IS A LUBRICATING OIL. 18 THAT IS THE WAY THE ANIMALS WERE EXPOSED 19 TO IT. AT LEAST THEY USED TO BE. THAT WAS MANY 2 0 YEARS AGO. 2 1 Q YOU HAVE NO INFORMATION THAT THIS WAS A 2 2 MONSANTO LUBRICATING OIL? 23 A I DOUBT IF IT WAS. 24 IT WAS A PURE AROCLOR DISSOLVED IN 25 MINERAL OIL WHICH WAS A VEHICLE USED TO EXPOSE THE 26 ANIMAL TO AROCLOR SO WE COULD, AGAIN, GAIN SOME 27 TISSUE SAMPLES AND SEE IF WE COULD FIND THE AROCLORS. 28 Q LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT SOMETHING ON THE HARTOLDMONOQ43682 3 62 1 1 SECOND PAGE, DR. TUCKER. 2 THERE IN PARAGRAPH 8? 3 A YES, MA'AM. 4 Q "THERE SHOULD BE FOLLOW-UP WITH THE FISH 5 AND WILDLIFE PEOPLE AT PATUXENT WITH THE REQUEST FOR 6 DUPLICATE SAMPLES OF SOME OF THE SAMPLES THEY HAVE 7 IDENTIFIED. SO THAT WE CAN ATTEMPT TO CONFIRM THEIR 8 RESULTS." 9 THAT IS THIS REFERENCE TO THE WORK THE 10 PATUXENT LABORATORY WAS DOING ON PCB'S IN BALD 11 EAGLES, WASN'T IT? 12 A YES . 13 Q AND DID THEY FIND PCB'S IN BALD EAGLES? 14 A I THINK THEY DID. 15 Q DID YOU CONFIRM THEIR RESULTS? 16 A NO, I DON'T THINK THEY EVER PROVIDED A 17 SAMPLE. 18 Q LET'S LOOK AT EXHIBIT 67, DR. TUCKER. 19 DO YOU HAVE THAT IN FRONT OF YOU? 2 0 A YES, MA'AM. 21 Q DO YOU RECOGNIZE EXHIBIT 67? 22 A YES, MA'AM. 23 Q WHAT IS IT? 24 A IT'S KIND OF LIKE A DIAGRAM PREPARED BY 25 DR. KELLER AND MYSELF THAT KIND OF SHOWED ALL THE 2 6 WORK BEING DONE RELATIVE TO PCB'S BY THE VARIOUS 27 OUTSIDE FIRMS AND THINGS OF THAT SORT THAT WE WERE 2 8 INVOLVED IN THE PROJECT. HARTOLDMON0043683 3622 1 Q WAS THIS AS OF THE BEGINNING OF 1969? 2 A YES, MA'AM, THE DATE ON THE CORNER IS 3 1-4-69 AND THE -- IT'S 1-15-69. 4 SO JANUARY, 15, 1969. 5 Q NOW, THIS SAYS THAT ONE OF THE TASKS WAS 6 TO -- DOWN THERE AT THE BOTTOM, DR. TUCKER, TO 7 DETERMINE ENVIRONMENTAL CONTAMINATION TO PROTECT 8 PRODUCT POSITION WITH THE CUSTOMER? 9 A WHICH ONE? ARE YOU ON NUMBER 4? 10 OKAY. YOU ARE ON NUMBER 4. ON THE 11 LEFT-HAND SIDE IT'S NUMBER 4. 12 Q YES. EXACTLY NUMBER 4. 13 WITH RESPECT TO AROCLOR 1242, 1254 AND 14 1260 . 15 SO THE JUSTIFICATION FOR THE PROJECT WAS 16 TO DETERMINE ENVIRONMENTAL CONTAMINATION TO PROTECT 17 PRODUCT POSITION WITH THE CUSTOMER, DETERMINE AROCLOR 18 SOLUBILITY AND WATER PERCENT, WILDLIFE EXTRACTS. 19 THAT WAS THE WORK YOU WERE DOING, RIGHT? 2 0 A YES . 21 Q AND YOU HAD A NEW DEADLINE HERE OF 22 10-17-69; IS THAT RIGHT? 2 3 A THAT IS WHAT IT SAYS, YES. 24 Q NOW, WASN'T YOUR PREVIOUS DEADLINE 3-69? 2 5 A IT COULD HAVE BEEN, YES, MA'AM. 2 6 Q DO YOU RECALL THERE WAS SOME SLIPPAGE IN 27 GETTING THE ENVIRONMENTAL SAMPLES INTO THE MACHINE 28 AND TESTED AND VERIFIED? HARTOLDMON0043684 3 62 3 1 A I RECALL THAT THERE WERE A MILLION THINGS 2 THAT PEOPLE WANTED DONE AND THAT WE WERE TRYING TO 3 BRING MORE AND MORE RESOURCES TO GET THOSE KIND OF 4 THINGS DONE * 5 SO IT WOULDN'T SURPRISE ME IF THERE WAS 6 SOME SLIPPAGE. 7 I WOULD ALSO POINT OUT THAT EVERYBODY'S 8 BOSSES, INCLUDING MINE, HAVE A WAY OF CHANGING 9 PRIORITIES OCCASIONALLY SO DUE DATES DO CHANGE. 10 I'M TAKING THIS PERSONALLY, I GUESS, 11 BECAUSE I WASN'T COMPLETING MY ASSIGNMENTS ON TIME. 12 I KNOW THAT IS NOT TRUE. 13 Q BUT YOUR BEST RECOLLECTION IS THAT EITHER 14 THROUGH A CHANGE OF PRIORITIES OR THROUGH YOU NEEDED 15 MORE PEOPLE THAT THE NEW DEADLINE FOR DETERMINING 16 ENVIRONMENTAL CONTAMINATION TO PROTECT PRODUCT 17 POSITION WITH CUSTOMER WAS OCTOBER, 1969, RIGHT? 18 A TO DETERMINE THIS SPECIFIC PORTION OF 19 IT . 20 I MEAN, THAT WAS KIND OF LIKE AN ONGOING 2 1 PROJECT. 22 Q THE PORTION THAT DEALT WITH AROCLOR 1242? 23 A 1254 AND 1260. 2 4 Q RIGHT. 25 A RIGHT. 26 Q SO YOUR BEST RECOLLECTION ISYOU NOW HAD 27 A DEADLINE OF OCTOBER, 1969? 28 A TO COMPLETE THISPORTION OFIT, WHICH IS HARTOLDMONOQ43685 3624 1 SHOWN IN THE JOB OR PROJECT WHICH WAS BASICALLY TO 2 LOOK AT THREE TYPES OF TECHNIQUES THAT COULD BE USED 3 AND DEVELOP THE SENSITIVITY INFORMATION WE NEEDED IN 4 THOSE THREE NATURE SCENES, YES. 5 Q NOW, BY THE WAY, NOW THAT WE HAVE 6 ESTABLISHED THAT THE GAS CHROMATOGRAPH WITH ELECTRON 7 CAPTURE DEVICE WASN'T PURCHASED UNTIL SOMETIME IN THE 8 FALL OF 1968, DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION IN 9 ANY WAY ABOUT WHEN YOU GOT THE MASS SPECTROMETER YOU 10 HAD TO SETUP? 11 A I THOUGHT WE HAD ESTABLISHED THAT THE 12 MASS SPECTROMETER WAS PURCHASED OR ORDERED IN 1967 13 AND ARRIVED IN 1968. 14 I THINK WE ALSO ESTABLISHED THAT I DIDN'T 15 SET THAT MASS SPECTROMETER UP, THAT SOME OTHER PEOPLE 16 SET THE MASS SPECTROMETER UP. 17 Q YOU THINK IT WAS SET UP IN '68, THOUGH? 18 A I THINK THEY BEGAN SETTING IT UP THEN. 19 AT LEAST THAT WAS THE TIME FRAME. 20 THE COURT: MS. GRADY, WE WILL TAKE THE 2 1 AFTERNOON BREAK AT THIS POINT AND BE IN RECESS UNTIL 22 THREE O'CLOCK RESUMING AT THAT TIME 2 3 (RECESS.) 24 THE COURT: AND RESUMING. 2 5 GO AHEAD, MS. GRADY. 26 MS. GRADY: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. 27 Q DR. TUCKER, REFERRING BACK TO EXHIBIT 67, 28 THIS IS, IF YOU FLIP THE PAGE FROM WHERE YOU WERE, HARTOLDMONOQ43686 3 62 5 1 THIS IS A DOCUMENT YOU WROTE, RIGHT, THAT STATED, 2 "1-15-69, REK/ST"? 3 A THIS IS A DOCUMENT MY BOSS AND I WROTE 4 WHICH MEANS I CONTRIBUTED TO IT AND HE PUBLISHED IT. 5 Q OKAY. I WANT TO TURN BACK TO THAT 6 PREVIOUS PAGE WE WERE ON. 7 A THE FRONT PAGE OR THE SECOND PAGE? 8 Q THE SECOND PAGE. 9 A YES, MA'AM. 10 Q WHERE IT SAYS, NEXT TO ITEM NUMBER 4, 11 "AROCLOR 1242, 1254, 1260." 12 THEN IT HAS THE PROJECT WHICH IS TO 13 DEVELOP THESE ANALYTICAL TECHNIQUES AND THEN IT HAS 14 THE JUSTIFICATION. 15 WHAT IT SAYS UNDER JUSTIFICATION IS 16 "DETERMINE ENVIRONMENTAL CONTAMINATION TO PROTECT 17 PRODUCT POSITION WITH THE CUSTOMER." 18 DO YOU SEE THAT? 19 A YES, MA'AM, I DO. 2 0 Q NOW, DR. TUCKER, WAS IT YOUR JOB TO 2 1 DETERMINE THE SCIENTIFIC TRUTH CONCERNING PCB'S OR 22 WAS IT YOUR JOB TO HELP OUT THE BUSINESSMEN WHO WERE 2 3 SELLING PCB'S? 2 4 A I THINK THERE IS NO QUESTION ABOUT WHAT 2 5 MY JOB WAS. 26 MY JOB WAS TO FIND OUT SCIENTIFICALLY 27 WHAT WAS HAPPENING. 28 WE DON'T CALL THAT THE TRUTH. WE JUST HARTOLDMON0043687 3 62 6 1 CALL THAT WHAT IS HAPPENING. 2 SO I -- THE TRUTH IS A -- MY JOB WAS TO 3 FIND OUT SCIENTIFICALLY WHAT WAS HAPPENING AND TO BE 4 ABLE TO DEFEND THAT POSITION AND SUPPORT IT WITH THE 5 APPROPRIATE KIND OF QUALITY INFORMATION AND PROVIDE 6 IT TO THE PEOPLE WHO WOULD MAKE THE DECISIONS, 7 ULTIMATELY, WHETHER WHAT WOULD AND WOULDN'T BE DONE. 8 Q SO THEY COULD PROTECT THE PRODUCT 9 POSITION WITH THE CUSTOMER, RIGHT? 10 A YES, SO THAT THEY COULD INFORM THE 11 CUSTOMER OF TRULY WHAT WAS GOING ON AND MAKE SOUND 12 DECISIONS RELATIVE TO WHAT THEY NEEDED TO DO, BASED 13 ON THE INFORMATION THAT THEY WERE GIVEN, YES. 14 Q YOU NEVER TALKED TO TRANSWESTERN, DID 15 YOU? 16 A NO, MA'AM. 17 Q YOU NEVER TALKED TO TEXASEASTERN? 18 A NO, MA'AM. 19 Q SO AS FAR AS ANY INFORMATION PROVIDED TO 20 THOSE TWO CUSTOMERS, YOU DON'T HAVE ANY PERSONAL 2 1 KNOWLEDGE, RIGHT? 2 2 A NO, MA'AM, I DID NOT PROVIDE ANY 2 3 INFORMATION TO THOSE PEOPLE DIRECTLY OR TO MY 24 KNOWLEDGE. 2 5 Q NOW, THE FIRST ENVIRONMENTAL SAMPLES YOU 2 6 RAN THROUGH THAT MACHINE WERE ANALYZED IN FEBRUARY, 27 1969, RIGHT? 28 A THAT'S FINE. HARTOLDMONOQ43688 3 62 8 1 THE AMOUNT OF AROCLOR FOUND WAS 2 CALCULATED AS AROCLOR 1242. 3 AND THE TRACES OF THE SEDIMENT WERE 4 UNMISTAKENLY 1242. 5 SO IT WAS UNALTERED AROCLOR PRODUCT AT 6 THE OUTFLOW OF THE PLANT. 7 Q IN THE SEDIMENT, IN THE MUD? 8 A YES, MA'AM, AND THE WATER, TOO. 9 I JUST NOTICED HERE THAT WE ALSO ANALYZED 10 THE WATER. 11 Q THERE WERE ALSO WATER TESTS? 12 A YES, MA'AM. 13 Q NOW, DOWN IN THIS MEMO -- YOU WROTE THIS 14 MEMO, RIGHT, DR. TUCKER? 15 A YES, MA'AM, I DID. 16 Q DOWN IN THAT THIRD PARAGRAPH, YOU STATE, 17 "BILL TO GIVE US INFORMATION I THINK THAT IF THE PCB 18 ACCUSATION TURNS OUT TO BE TRUE AND THE GOVERNMENT 19 PEOPLE BECOME MORE ACTIVE, WE SHOULD PLAN ON AN 20 EXTENSIVE EVALUATION OF THE EXTENT OF CONTAMINATION 21 IN THIS AREA." 22 MEANING OUTSIDE MONSANTO'S OWN PRODUCTION 23 PLANTS, RIGHT? 24 A MEANING FROM THE OUTFALL TO WHEREVER WE 2 5 QUIT BEING ABLE TO SEE IT WITH THESE TECHNIQUES, YES, 2 6 MA'AM. 27 Q AND YOU WENT TO DO THAT TESTING, RIGHT? 28 A YES, MA'AM. HARTOLDMON0043690 3 629 1 Q AND YOU FOUND OUT THAT AROCLOR WAS 2 DETECTABLE QUITE A WAYS DOWN, FOR EXAMPLE THE 3 MISSISSIPPI RIVER FROM THE KRUMMRICH PLANT, RIGHT? 4 A WHAT WE ULTIMATELY FOUND WAS THE PCB'S 5 WERE UBIQUITOUS. 6 Q MEANING THEY WERE EVERYWHERE? 7 A YES, MA'AM. 8 Q NOT JUST OUTSIDE OF MONSANTO'S PLANTS BUT 9 IF YOU STARTED RUNNING YOUR SAMPLES THROUGH THIS 10 MACHINE YOU FOUND THAT LOTS OF ENVIRONMENTAL SAMPLES 11 SHOWED PCB'S? 12 A WE FOUND PCB'S IN A LOT OF PLACES, RIGHT. 13 Q HUMAN MILK? 14 A YES, MA'AM. 15 Q DISHWASHING DETERGENT? 16 A YES, MA'AM. 17 Q FISH? 18 A YES, MA'AM. 19 Q SHRIMP? 2 0 A YES, MA'AM. 21 Q BIRDS? 22 A THAT IS WHAT "UBIQUITOUS" MEANS, YES, 2 3 MA'AM. 2 4 Q UBIQUITOUS MEANS WHEN YOU STARTED DOING 25 THE TESTS WHAT YOU FOUND WAS PCB'S WERE EVERYWHERE? 26 A YOU FOUND OUT IF YOU WENT TO LOW ENOUGH 27 LEVELS YOU WOULD SEE PCB'S IN A LOT OF PLACES. 28 WE OBVIOUSLY DIDN'T ANALYZE EVERYTHING. HARTOLDMON0043691 3 63 0 1 THEY WERE UBIQUITOUS, THAT IS WHAT IT 2 MEANS, WIDELY SPREAD. 3 WE NEED THAT INFORMATION. THAT IS WHAT 4 THIS IS ALL ABOUT. 5 Q YOU WERE CONCERNED -- I TAKE IT AT THAT 6 POINT YOU DIDN'T THINK THE GOVERNMENT PEOPLE WERE TOO 7 ACTIVE; IS THAT RIGHT? I'M LOOKING AT THE SENTENCE, 8 DR. TUCKER, WHERE IT SAYS, "IF THE PCB ACCUSATION 9 TURNS OUT TO BE TRUE AND THE GOVERNMENT PEOPLE BECOME 10 MORE ACTIVE, WE SHOULD PLAN ON EXTENSIVE EVALUATION"? 11 A I THINK WE SHOULD HELP SOLVE THE PROBLEM. 12 TO DO THAT, WE NEEDED INFORMATION. 13 SO I WAS RECOMMENDING THAT WE BECOME MORE 14 ACTIVE. 15 Q BECAUSE YOU WERE CONCERNED IF THE 16 GOVERNMENT PEOPLE BECAME MORE ACTIVE, FINDING PCB'S 17 EVERYWHERE WAS GOING TO BE A BIG PROBLEM FOR 18 MONSANTO, RIGHT? 19 A WELL, I THINK -- I WASN'T SO MUCH WORRIED 2 0 ABOUT THE BIG PROBLEM WITH MONSANTO AS I WAS WORRIED 21 WITH WHAT YOU PROPOSED AS A SCIENTIFIC TRUTH EARLIER. 22 I THINK WHAT WE WERE TRYING TO DO IS FIND 2 3 OUT WHAT WAS THE PROBLEM, HOW WIDESPREAD IT WAS. 2 4 I THINK WE ESTABLISHED THAT WE SHARED OUR 2 5 INFORMATION VERY FREELY WITH ANYBODY AND EVERYBODY 2 6 WHO WAS INTERESTED. 27 BECAUSE THE ULTIMATE SOLUTION FROM MY 2 8 VIEWPOINT AS A SCIENTIST WAS TO DETERMINE WHAT THE HARTOLDMONOQ43692 3631 1 PROBLEM WAS AND PROVIDE GOOD, ACCURATE INFORMATION 2 UPON WHICH DECISIONS COULD BE MADE. 3 THIS WAS 25 YEARS AGO. 4 OUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT WAS GOING ON IN 5 THE ENVIRONMENT, THINGS OF THAT SORT, CAME FROM 6 THESE KINDS OF STUDIES. 7 Q THE FIRST THING YOU FOUND OUT WHEN YOU 8 RAN AN ENVIRONMENTAL SAMPLE THROUGH YOUR MACHINE TWO 9 YEARS AFTER JENSEN AND WIDMARK HAD REPORTED PCB'S IN 10 THE ENVIRONMENT WAS, YES, IT TURNS OUT THERE ARE 11 PC B 'S IN THE ENVIRONMENT, ACCORDING TO OUR OWN TESTS, 12 RIGHT? 13 A RIGHT, ESSENTIALLY RIGHT HERE AT THE 14 OUTFLOW OF THE PLANT WHERE WE WENT FIRST TO VERIFY 15 THAT WE WERE GOING TO FIND THEM. 16 THEN WE GRADUALLY WENT UP. 17 YES, ABSOLUTELY, SURE. 18 Q OKAY. I THINK IN QUESTIONING BY 19 MR. PREUSS YOU INDICATED THAT YOU THOUGHT THAT JENSEN 2 0 AND WIDMARK HAD JUST FOUND AROCLORS WITH SIX 2 1 CHLORINES ON THEM; IS THAT RIGHT? 22 A NO. 23 WHAT I SAID WAS THEY FOUND 24 POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS WITH SIX CHLORINES. 25 I DIDN'T SAY THEY FOUND AROCLORS. 26 AS A MATTER OF FACT, I WAS VERY CAREFUL 27 TO STATE THEY DIDN'T FIND AROCLORS. 28 THEY FOUND PCB'S THAT HAD SIX CHLORINES HARTOLDMONOQ43693 3632 1 OR BETTER IN THEM, 2 IN EUROPE, THERE WERE A NUMBER OF 3 MANUFACTURERS OF PCB'S IN EUROPE. 4 MONSANTO WE WERE THE SOLE MANUFACTURER IN 5 THE UNITED STATES. 6 BUT, THERE WERE A LOT OF PLACES THAT MADE 7 PCB'S IN EUROPE. 8 Q THE CONCERN WAS IF JENSEN AND WIDMARK ARE 9 FINDING PCB'S IN SWEDEN IT'S LIKELY THERE ARE PCB'S 10 HERE IN THE U.S., RIGHT? 11 A I THINK WE ALSO SUPPLIED PCB'S TO SWEDEN. 12 WE COMPETED ON AN INTERNATIONAL BASIS. 13 Q JENSEN AND WIDMARK DIDN'T -- LOOKING AT 14 EXHIBIT 88, I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S ON THE SAME? 15 A YES, MA'AM, IT IS. 16 Q IF YOU WOULD TAKE A LOOK AT THAT, 17 PLEASE. 18 JENSEN AND WIDMARK DIDN'T JUST FIND PCB'S 19 WITH SIX CHLORINES ON THEM, THEY FOUND PCB'S WITH 2 0 FIVE CHLORINES ON THEM, TOO, RIGHT? 2 1 A THAT COULD BE VERY WELL TRUE. 22 I'M SURE THEY FOUND IN SOME SAMPLES SOME 2 3 WITH FIVES, SOME WITH SIXES AND SOME WITH SEVENS, 24 ALTHOUGH I DON'T THINK THEY EVER FOUND ANY FOURS. 25 Q YOU DON'T THINK THEY FOUND ANY FOURS? 26 A I DON'T THINK SO. 27 I DON'T RECALL ANY REPORTS OF IT. 28 Q BUT SEEING THIS YOU RECALL THAT IT WASN'T HARTOLDMONOQ43694 3 63 3 1 JUST SIXES AND HIGHER BUT THEY ALSO FOUND FIVES? 2 A WHERE ARE YOU SPECIFICALLY? 3 Q WIDMARK WAS FINDING CL FIVE AND CL SIX 4 CHLORINATED BIPHENYLS FROM EXTRACTS OF SALMON AND 5 FROM EXTRACTS OF WASTE SEWAGE SLUDGE? 6 A YEAH, LOW CL SEVENS, CL EIGHTS, SOME CL 7 10 . 8 Q RIGHT. 9 SO BACK AT THE TIME, BACK IN 1969, YOU 10 KNEW THAT JENSEN AND WIDMARK WEREN'T JUST FINDING 11 SIXES AND EIGHTS, THEY WERE FINDING CL FIVES, RIGHT? 12 A IN ACCORDANCE WITH WHAT BILL RICHARD 13 STATED IN THIS MEMO. 14 Q WELL WHEN THE MONSANTO EMPLOYEES WENT 15 OVER TO EUROPE IN THE SUMMER OF 1969 TO SURVEY THE 16 RESEARCH THEY CAME BACK AND PROVIDED A REPORT TO YOU, 17 RIGHT? 18 A DON'T GET ME WRONG. 19 IF YOU LOOK AT THE LAST LINE IT STATES 2 0 THEY DIDN'T FIND ANY CL 11 OR 12. THOSE THINGS DON'T 2 1 EXIST. 22 THIS WAS SOMEBODY'S THOUGHTS. 2 3 THERE IS NO 11 CHLORINATED BIPHENYL AND 24 THERE IS NO 12 CHLORINATED BIPHENYL. 25 IT SAYS, "NO CL 11 OR 12 CHLORINATED 26 BIPHENYL WAS FOUND." 27 I'M VERY SUSPICIOUS OF THE THINKING 28 INVOLVED IN THIS PARTICULAR THING. HARTOLDMON0043695 3634 1 IT WOULDN'T SURPRISE ME IF THEY FOUND 2 FIVE CHLORINATED, BUT I WASN'T AWARE THEY HAD VIA 3 THEIR PUBLICATIONS. 4 Q IT WOULDN'T SURPRISE YOU IF THEY FOUND 5 PCB MOLECULES WITH FIVE CHLORINES ON THEM BECAUSE YOU 6 NEVER GOT PCB MOLECULES WITH FIVE CHLORINES ON THEM 7 TO DEGRADE, RIGHT? 8 A THE PCB'S WITH FIVE MOLECULES ON THEM 9 WERE RESISTANT TO DEGRADATION, YES. 10 Q NO TESTS -11 A IT WOULDN'T SURPRISE ME IF THEY FOUND 12 THOSE, THAT'S CORRECT. 13 Q NO TEST YOU EVER DID WHILE YOU WORKED 14 WITH MONSANTO SHOWED THAT CL FIVES AND SIXES DEGRADE, 15 RIGHT? 16 A NO TESTS THAT I EVER RAN DID BECAUSE OF 17 THE TIME FRAME REQUIRED FOR THEM TODEGRADE. 18 HOWEVER, IN WEATHERED SAMPLES THAT HAD 19 BEEN IN THE ENVIRONMENT FOR 20 YEARS AND THINGS OF 2 0 THAT SORT, THE FIVES NECESSARILY WERE NOT 2 1 PREDOMINANTLY FOUND. 22 IN FACT, THEY WERE SIX AND ABOVE. 23 IN THE TIME FRAME WE HAD TO DO THE 24 EXPERIMENTATION THERE WAS NOT SUFFICIENT GRADATION OF 2 5 THE PENTACHLORO. 2 6 FROM OUR VIEWPOINT THEY WERE NOT 27 DEGRADABLE. 28 THAT DOESN'T MEAN IF YOU WERE CAPABLE OF HARTOLDMONOQ43696 3 63 5 1 RUNNING THE EXPERIMENT FOR A LONGER PERIOD OF TIME 2 THEY WOULDN'T DEGRADE. 3 WHAT IT MEANS IS THEY WERE VERY SLOW TO 4 DO SO AND THAT WAS A PROBLEM. 5 Q WHEN YOU SAY NO, YOU DIDN'T FIND ANY 6 SIGNIFICANT DEGRADATION, YOU WERE MEASURING DOWN TO 7 PARTS PER TRILLION AND YOU DIDN'T FIND ANY 8 DEGRADATION, RIGHT? 9 A OKAY. WHAT I WAS MEASURING WAS THE 10 DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PARTS PER BILLION ADDED AND PARTS 11 PER BILLION FOUND LATER. 12 SO WE WERE MEASURING AT THE LEVEL OF 13 PARTS PER BILLION BUT WE WERE MEASURING BETWEEN THE 14 SMALL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TWO NUMBERS. 15 THAT IS QUITE DIFFERENT FROM WHAT YOU 16 SAID . 17 Q WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS POINT. 18 I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU EXHIBIT 352. 19 NOW, WHEN YOU WERE DESCRIBING HOW PCB'S 2 0 WERE MADE, YOU EXPLAINED THAT ALL AROCLORS ARE A 21 MIXTURE.OF PCB'S, RIGHT? 22 A CORRECT. 2 3 Q THAT MEANS THAT AROCLOR 1242 HAS LOTS OF 24 PCB MOLECULES WITH ONLY THREE CHLORINES ON THEM, 2 5 RIGHT? 26 A CORRECT. 27 Q BUT IT ALSO HAS PCB MOLECULES WITH FIVE 2 8 CHLORINES ON THEM, RIGHT? HARTOLDMON0043697 363 6 1 A YES. . 2 AS A MATTER OF FACT, IT HAS 10 PERCENT OR 3 LESS OF MATERIALS THAT HAVE FIVE CHLORINES AND ABOVE 4 IN THEM. 5 AND WE ESTABLISHED THAT THROUGH ANALYSIS. 6 Q RIGHT. 7 AND ANOTHER WAY TO SAY THAT IS OUT OF 8 EVERY GALLON OF AROCLOR 1242 10 PERCENT OF IT IS 9 MOLECULES WITH FIVE CHLORINES OR ABOVE ON IT, RIGHT? 10 A YES, MA ' AM, THAT IS WHAT PERCENTAGE, THAT 11 IS HOW IT WORKED, YES, MA'AM, YOU ARE CORRECT. 12 Q THAT IS WHAT YOU AT MONSANTO CALLED THE 13 HIGHER CHLORINATED PCB'S, RIGHT? 14 A CORRECT. 15 Q AND WHAT YOU FOUND WHEN YOU DID RIVER 16 DIE-AWAY STUDIES WAS NO DEGRADATION OF 1242? 17 A CORRECT. 18 Q AND RIVER DIE-AWAY IS, YOU TAKE REAL 19 RIVER WATER AND YOU PUT A SMALL AMOUNT OF PCB IN IT 20 AND THEN YOU WATCH IT FOR EIGHT WEEKS AND SEE IF 2 1 ANYTHING HAPPENS TO THE PCB, CORRECT? 22 A CORRECT. 23 Q AND WHEN YOU DID THAT WITHAROCLOR 1242 24 NOTHING HAPPENED WITH THE PCB, RIGHT? 25 A THAT'S CORRECT. 26 I SHOULD POINT OUT TO YOUTHAT THINGS 27 LIKE MINERAL OIL AND OTHER KINDS OF PETROLEUM 28 HYDROCARBONS AND THINGS OF THAT SORT ALSO WOULDN'T HARTOLDMONOQ43698 3 637 1 DISAPPEAR UNDER THOSE CONDITIONS. 2 IT'S NOT A VERY ROBUST TEST. 3 THERE ARE NOT MANY BACTERIA IN THERE AND 4 THINGS OF THAT SORT. 5 THAT IS NOT SURPRISING KNOWLEDGE. 6 Q SO WHEN YOU DIDN'T GET ANY DEGRADATION 7 USING RIVER DIE-AWAY STUDIES, WHICH WAS THE FIRST SET 8 OF STUDIES YOU RAN, RIGHT? 9 A YES . 10 Q THEN YOU WENT TO THIS ACTIVATED, 11 CONTINUOUS ACTIVATED SLUDGE TEST, RIGHT? 12 A RIGHT, SEMI-CONTINUOUS ACTIVATED SLUDGE, 13 YES . 14 Q THAT IS YOU TAKE SEWAGE AND YOU ADD A 15 LITTLE BIT OF PCB TO IT? 16 A LET ME CORRECT YOU. 17 YOU DON'T TAKE SEWAGE. YOU TAKE BACTERIA 18 FROM THE SEWAGE TREATMENT PLANT. 19 THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE. 20 I'M SORRY. SEWAGE LIKE WHAT YOU FLUSH 21 DOWN YOUR TOILET? 22 Q EXACTLY. 23 A WHAT GROWS AT THE SEWAGE TREATMENT PLANT 24 AND WHAT BIODEGRADES, THOSE KIND OF THINGS ARE 25 BACTERIA. 26 SO YOU DON'T TAKE THE SEWAGE. YOU TAKE 27 THE BACTERIA. 28 YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED IN THE SEWAGE. HARTOLDMON0043699 3 63 8 1 Q YOU TAKE SLUDGE THAT HAS A LOT OF 2 MICROBES AND BUGS IN IT, RIGHT? 3 A YES, MA'AM. 4 Q AND YOU PUT A LITTLE BIT OF PCB INTO THIS 5 SLUDGE AND YOU PUT A LOT OF AIR INTO THE SLUDGE AND 6 YOU STIR IT UP, RIGHT? 7 A THAT'S CORRECT. 8 Q AND YOU DID THAT AND YOU FOUND THAT 9 EVERYTHING UP TO HERE YOU COULD GET TO DEGRADE BUT 10 THIS WOULDN'T DEGRADE, RIGHT? 11 A OKAY. 12 WHAT I FOUND, AND THIS IS PUBLISHED 13 INFORMATION THAT WAS REVIEWEDINPEER JOURNALS AND 14 THINGS OF THIS SORT, IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY, I MAY 15 BE WRONG ON THE EXACT NUMBER, WAS IN A 48-HOUR PERIOD 16 48 PERCENT OF THE AROCLOR, BY WEIGHT, THAT WAS ADDED 17 TO THAT ACTIVATED SLUDGE UNIT WAS BIODEGRADED. 18 AND AFTER LOOKING AT IT FOR A LONG PERIOD 19 OF TIME IT APPEARED THAT THE THINGS THAT WEREN'T 2 0 DEGRADING IN THAT VERY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME, 48 2 1 HOURS, WERE THE MORE RESISTANT, HIGHER CHLORINATED 22 ONES, OKAY? 23 WHICH BASICALLY SAID THAT UNDER THESE 2 4 TEST CONDITIONS EVERYTHING UP TO PENTACHLORO BIPHENYL 25 DISAPPEARS VERY RAPIDLY, BUT THAT SOME OF THESE, 26 WHILE THEY MAY HAVE BEEN DEGRADED WERE NOT DEGRADED 27 DURING THAT 48-HOUR PERIOD. THAT IS A LOT DIFFERENT 2 8 FROM SAYING THEY NEVER DEGRADED. HARTOLDMON0043700 3 63 9 1 WHICH I WAS GETTING THE FEELING THAT YOU 2 WERE -- THE WAY YOU WERE INTERPRETING THAT 3 INFORMATION THAT IS WHAT YOU WERE SAYING. 4 Q YEAH, I WAS SAYING THAT. 5 A WELL, THAT WASN'T TRUE. 6 Q NO TEST THAT YOU EVER RAN SHOWED THAT THE 7 FIVES AND SIXES, THIS 10 PERCENT OF THE AROCLOR 1242 8 DEGRADED, RIGHT? 9 A THERE ARE SOME ISOMERS WHICH DO DEGRADE. 10 BUT PREDOMINANTLY WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS 11 VERY TRUE. 12 IN THE TIME FRAME WE STUDIED THEM THEY 13 DIDN'T DEGRADE. 14 Q OKAY. AND THIS SEMI-CONTINUOUS ACTIVATED 15 SLUDGE TEST, THAT IS NOT THE REAL WORLD, IS IT? 16 A OH, YEAH. 17 VIRTUALLY EVERY WASTE THAT WE PUT OUT 18 THERE GOES THROUGH SEWAGE TREATMENT PLANTS. 19 AND, IN FACT, UNTIL WE REALLY HAD SEWAGE 2 0 TREATMENT PLANTS AT THE END OF ALL THE PIPES THAT 2 1 COME OUT OF CITIES, WE HAD A REALLY SEVERE PROBLEM. 2 2 SO BIODEGRADATION THE SOMETHING WE HAVE 2 3 CREATED FOR OURSELVES TO CLEAN UP OUR SEWAGE AND IS 2 4 PROBABLY ONE OF THE BEST WAYS TO GET RID OF THESE 25 KIND OF THINGS. 2 6 Q YOU ARE NOT SUGGESTING THAT YOU SHOULD 27 PUT PCB'S IN A HUMAN WASTE DISPOSAL PLANT, ARE YOU? 28 A ABSOLUTELY NOT. HARTOLDMON0043701 3 640 1 I AM SUGGESTING THAT ONE OF THE 2 TECHNIQUES USED NOWADAYS IN REMEDIATION OF HAZARDOUS 3 WASTE SITES IS CALLED BIOREMEDIATION. 4 IT INVOLVES THE INCORPORATION OF 5 BACTERIA, SOME BACTERIA WHICH ARE KNOWN TO DEGRADE 6 PCB'S AND THINGS OF THAT SORT IN THE SOIL WITH THE 7 CONSTITUENTS THAT ARE ALREADY THERE AND THEN LETTING 8 THEM DEGRADE. 9 SO THAT IS WHAT I'M SAYING. 10 Q OKAY. LET ME ASK YOU ANOTHER QUESTION. 11 WHAT IF YOU DON'T HAVE ALL OF THESE BUGS 12 AND MICROBES. 13 WHAT IF YOU HAVE AROCLOR 1242 IN A CAN, 14 IN A WAREHOUSE. 15 HOW LONG WILL THAT AROCLOR 1242 LAST 16 WITHOUT BREAKING DOWN? 17 A PROBABLY AS LONG AS YOU PROTECT ITS 18 INTEGRITY. 19 Q IT WILL LAST 150 YEARS, WON'T IT? 20 A I WOULD GUESS. 21 IT'S A LONG EXPERIMENT. 22 I HAVE NO REASON TO BELIEVE THAT IT WILL 2 3 LAST FOREVER IF YOU KEPT DOING IT LONG ENOUGH. 24 Q DO YOU KNOW IF THERE ARE ANY MICROBES, 2 5 BUGS OR ANY ORGANIC MATTER IN A NATURAL GAS PIPELINE? 2 6 A I WOULD IMAGINE THERE ARE SOME, BUT I 27 DON'T THINK IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE THERE. 28 Q THERE IS NO OXYGEN IN A NATURAL GAS HARTOLDMON0043702 3 64 1 1 PIPELINE, RIGHT? 2 A I HOPE NOT. 3 Q SO IF THERE IS NO AIR -- NO OXYGEN, NO 4 LIGHT, NO MICROBES, IF YOU HAVE PCB'S IN A NATURAL 5 GAS PIPELINE, IF YOU CAN'T GET THEM OUT, THEY ARE 6 GOING TO LAST 150 YEARS, AREN'T THEY? 7 A I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE 150 YEARS. 8 BUT ARE YOU ASKING ME IF THEY WOULD 9 BIODEGRADE UNDER THOSE CONDITIONS? 10 IT WOULD BE HIGHLY UNLIKELY. 11 THEY WILL STICK AROUND IN THERE FOR A 12 WHILE, IF THAT IS YOUR QUESTION. 13 Q THEY ARE JUST LIKE THE CAN IN THE 14 WAREHOUSE THAT YOU SAID THE PCB'S WOULD STILL BE 15 THERE IN 150 YEARS, RIGHT? 16 A WELL, I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE 150 YEARS. 17 I DON'T KNOW WHERE YOU COME UP WITH THAT 18 MAGIC NUMBER, EITHER. 19 I KNOW ITS A LONG PERIOD OF TIME. IT 20 HASN'T BEEN DETERMINED. 2 1 I KNOW UNDER THESE KIND OF CONDITIONS, 22 WHEN YOU PUT FOOD IN A CAN IT LASTS FOREVER. THAT IS 23 WHY YOU DO THAT. 24 I WOULD SAY YES, IF YOU ARE GOING TO PUT 25 IT UNDER THOSE CONDITIONS, IT WILL LAST A LONG TIME. 26 Q OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WHEN YOU STARTED DOING 2 7 ENVIRONMENTAL TESTS, WHAT YOU FOUND, DR. TUCKER, AS 28 YOU SAID, WAS THAT THESE PCB'S WERE EVERYWHERE, HARTOLDMON0043703 3 64 2 1 RIGHT? 2 A AT A LOW ENOUGH LEVEL THEY APPEARED TO BE 3 UBIQUITOUS, YES. 4 THEY WERE AROUND, YES. 5 Q SO FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU LOOK AT EXHIBIT 6 103 -- EXHIBIT 103 ARE ENVIRONMENTAL TESTS DONE 7 OUTSIDE OF MONSANTO'S NEWPORT, ENGLAND PLANT, RIGHT? 8 A YES, MA'AM. 9 Q AND WHAT YOU FOUND SHOWN ON THE MAP THAT 10 IS ATTACHED IS AROCLOR 1242? 11 A YES, MA'AM. 12 Q AND WHEN YOU DID SIMILAR TESTS OUTSIDE OF 13 NATIONAL CASH REGISTER'S PLANT OF THE WATER THERE YOU 14 FOUND AROCLOR 1242, RIGHT? 15 A DO YOU HAVE ADOCUMENT YOU ARE REFERRING 16 TO? 17 I DON'T DOUBT THAT. BUT ARE YOU 18 REFERRING TO A DOCUMENT? 19 Q YEAH, LET ME SHOW IT TO YOU, DR. TUCKER. 2 0 IF YOU WOULD LOOK AT EXHIBIT 114. 21 DATED DECEMBER 3RD, 1962. 2 2 A YES, MA'AM. 2 3 Q AND THAT SHOWS THAT WHEN YOU TAKE SAMPLES 24 OF WATER FROM NCR, AND THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO MADE 25 THE CARBONLESS COPY PAPER, RIGHT? 2 6 A YES, MA'AM. 27 Q AND THEY MADE THAT WITH AROCLOR 1242? 28 A THAT WAS THE FLUID USED IN IT, YES. HARTOLDMON0043704 3 64 3 1 Q AND WHEN YOU TOOK THOSE SAMPLES AND RAN 2 THEM THROUGH YOUR MACHINE WHAT YOU FOUND WAS FAIRLY 3 HIGH PARTS PER MILLION OF AROCLOR 1242, RIGHT? 4 A YES . 5 Q AND YOU DID SAMPLES FOR -- AT SOME OF 6 YOUR OTHER LARGE CUSTOMERS' PLANTS, RIGHT? 7 A ABSOLUTELY. 8 WE HAD A PROGRAMWHOSEOBJECTIVE WAS TO 9 HELP OUR CUSTOMERS UNDERSTAND WHERE THEY WERE 10 RELATIVE TO DISCHARGES OF THE MATERIALS THEY WERE 11 USING. 12 Q DID YOU EVER DO ANY TESTS FOR TEXAS 13 EASTERN? 14 A I DON'T PERSONALLY RECALL EVERDOING ANY 15 TESTS, NO. 16 Q DID YOU EVER DO ANY TESTS FOR 17 TRANSWESTERN? 18 A I DON'T PERSONALLY RECALL DOING ANY 19 TESTS. 2 0 BY THE WAY, THOSE TESTS WOULD BE A MATTER 2 1 OF RECORD. 2 2 ALL TESTS THAT WERE DONE WERE RECORDED 2 3 AND IN LOG BOOKS, THINGS OF THAT SORT. 24 THEY WERE STANDARD PROCEDURES. 2 5 SO I DON'T RECALL. 26 Q SO AS THE FIRST TESTS WE HAVE SEEN WERE 27 THE FEBRUARY, 1969 TESTS, THAT WOULD INDICATE TO YOU 28 THAT THOSE WERE THE FIRST TESTS, THOSE WERE OUTSIDE HARTOLDMON0043705 3 64 4 1 SNOW CREEK IN ANNISTON, THAT THOSE WERE THE FIRST 2 ENVIRONMENTAL TESTS THAT YOU RAN IN YOUR MACHINE, 3 RIGHT? 4 A IN THE EXHIBITS WE HAVE LOOKED AT, YOU 5 ARE CORRECT. 6 Q LET'S LOOK AT EXHIBIT 110. 7 A OKAY . 8 Q THAT IS A MEMO YOU WROTE, RIGHT? 9 A YES, MA'AM. 10 Q AND IF YOU LOOK ON THE THIRD PAGE OF IT, 11 DR. TUCKER, IT SAYS 11-10-69? 12 A IN THE FAR RIGHT COLUMN? 13 11-10-69. 14 Q UNDER YOUR NAME THERE? 15 A WHERE ARE YOU AT? 16 IS THAT THE DOCUMENT UP ON THE SCREEN? 17 Q YES, IT IS. 18 A OH, SURE, ON -- 19 Q I'M STILL ON THE MEMO. 2 0 A YOU ARE STILL ON THE MEMO ITSELF. 2 1 OKAY . 22 YES, MA'AM. 23 Q AND WHAT THIS -24 A 11-10-69. 2 5 Q THANK YOU. 26 AND WHAT THIS WAS WAS A SUMMARY OF THE 27 INFORMATION THAT YOU HAD UP TO THAT POINT, NOVEMBER, 28 1969 CONCERNING PCB'S IN THE ENVIRONMENT, RIGHT? HARTOLDMON0043706 3 64 5 1 A YES, MA'AM. 2 Q AND THE REASON YOU WROTE THAT WAS BECAUSE 3 IN NOVEMBER, 1969 THERE WAS THE FIRST CORPORATE 4 DEVELOPMENT COMMITTEE MEETING, THE UPPER MANAGEMENT 5 OF MONSANTO, WHERE THE ISSUE OF PCB'S WAS GOING TO BE 6 PRESENTED, RIGHT? 7 A WELL, I WISH MY MOTIVES WERE THAT LOFTY. 8 ACTUALLY I WROTE IT BECAUSE BILL RICHARD 9 ASKED ME TO. 10 Q AND MR. RICHARD ASKED YOU BECAUSE HE TOLD 11 YOU, "I HAVE TO GIVE A PRESENTATION TO THE CORPORATE 12 DEVELOPMENT COMMITTEE ABOUT WHAT THIS PROBLEM WAS 13 WITH PCB'S," RIGHT? . 14 A NO, MR. RICHARD ASKED ME TO WRITE IT 15 BECAUSE HE ASKED ME TO DO SO AND I WROTE IT BECAUSE 16 HE WAS SOMEBODY WHO NEEDED THAT KIND OF INFORMATION 17 AND WANTED IT. 18 THAT WAS MY JOB. 19 WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY IS IT WASN'T 2 0 WRITTEN WITH ANYTHING IN MIND. 2 1 IT WAS WRITTEN WITH THE ASSIGNMENT IN 22 MIND WHICH WAS TO REVIEW WHAT WE KNEW TO THIS POINT 23 IN TIME AND PUT IT DOWN IN A CONCISE SUMMARY FASHION 24 FOR HIM. 2 5 SO YOUR IMPLICATION THAT I UNDERSTOOD 26 THEY WERE GOING TO USE IT TO TALK TO THE PRESIDENT, 27 THAT IS REALLY EXTENDING, REACHING A LITTLE BIT. 28 I'M TRYING TO TELL YOU WHY I DID IT HARTOLDMON0043707 3 64 6 1 BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT I THINK YOU ARE ASKING. 2 Q DID YOU RECEIVE INFORMATION THAT IN 3 NOVEMBER, 1969 THERE WAS THIS CORPORATE DEVELOPMENT 4 COMMITTEE MEETING WHERE THE BUSINESS GROUP DISCUSSED 5 WITH UPPER MANAGEMENT FOR THE FIRST TIME PCB'S? 6 A I DON'T RECALL RECEIVING THAT 7 INFORMATION. 8 AND I MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE BEEN INCLUDED 9 IN THAT. 10 I DON'T THINK I PROBABLY WAS. 11 Q OKAY. WOULD YOU LOOK AT THE SECOND PAGE 12 OF YOUR MEMO, DR. TUCKER. 13 DOWN THERE UP ABOVE THE LAST PARAGRAPH 14 THAT SAYS -- WHOOPS. 15 A "THE INFORMATION TO DATE"? 16 Q "THE INFORMATION TO DATE INDICATES THAT 17 WE HAVE A GLOBAL POLLUTION PROBLEM AT THE MOMENT 18 RESTRICTED TO AQUATIC AREAS BECAUSE OF THE TRANSPORT 19 AND CONCENTRATION OF MARINE INHABITANTS' 20 MECHANISMS." 21 AND THAT WAS YOUR SUMMARY OF WHAT YOU 2 2 KNEW ABOUT PCB'S BEING UBIQUITOUS IN THE ENVIRONMENT, 23 RIGHT? 24 A IT WAS THE TRUTH AS I KNEW IT AT THAT 2 5 TIME YES, MA'AM. 26 Q AND IT WAS A REFERENCE TO PCB'S? 27 A YES, MA'AM, THAT'S WHAT THIS IS ABOUT. 28 Q OKAY. YOU THOUGHT THE SOLUTION OF THE HARTOLDMON0043708 3 647 1 PROBLEM WAS FOR MONSANTO TO GO OUT OF THE BUSINESS OF 2 MAKING AROCLOR 1254 AND 1260, RIGHT? 3 A IT WASN'T UP TO ME TO THINK THOSE KINDS 4 OF THINGS. BUT IT WAS A NATURAL CONCLUSION TO DRAW 5 IF THAT IS WHAT WERE BEING FOUND IN THE ENVIRONMENT, 6 IF WE WITHDREW FROM THAT BUSINESS, THAT THEY WOULDN'T 7 BE PUT OUT IN THE ENVIRONMENT ANYMORE. 8 Q AND THAT WAS THE CONCLUSION YOU DID DRAW, 9 THAT MONSANTO SHOULD GO OUT OF THE AROCLOR 1254 AND 10 1260 BUSINESS, RIGHT? 11 A WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY IS I DIDN'T DRAW 12 THOSE KIND OF CONCLUSIONS FOR THE COMPANY. 13 IT WAS A SUGGESTION OF A PATH THAT COULD 14 BE TAKEN. 15 Q AND WHERE THAT SUGGESTION CAN BE FOUND IS 16 ON PAGE 3 WHERE YOU STATE, UNFORTUNATELY THE SOLUTION 17 TO THE PROBLEM WILL INITIALLY INVOLVE WITHDRAWAL OF 18 1254 AND 1260 FROM THE MARKETPLACE, CORRECT? 19 A THAT'S CORRECT. 2 0 AS A SCIENTIST THAT IS THE WAY I FELT 2 1 BASED ON THE INFORMATION I HAD GENERATED UP TO THAT 22 POINT IN TIME. 2 3 Q FOLLOWED BY A CONCERTED EFFORT TO PROVE 24 THAT AROCLOR 1242 IS BIODEGRADABLE, RIGHT? 25 A RIGHT, TO DEMONSTRATE THAT AROCLOR 1242 26 WAS BIODEGRADABLE AND WAS NOT CONTRIBUTING. 27 Q AND AT THIS TIME, NOVEMBER, 1969, YOU 28 HADN'T STARTED THE BIODEGRADATION STUDIES, RIGHT? HARTOLDMON0043709 3 64 8 1 A ARE YOU REFERRING TO A DOCUMENT THAT SAYS 2 I HADN'T STARTED THOSE? 3 Q I CAN SHOW YOU DOCUMENTS. 4 I GUESS WHAT I'M LOOKING FOR NOW IS JUST 5 YOUR BEST RECOLLECTION. 6 A I THINK THE BIODEGRADATION STUDIES HAD 7 BEEN STARTED BY 1969. 3 ISN'T THAT WHAT WE ESTABLISHED EARLIER? 9 Q I DON'T THINK SO, BUT I WILL SHOW YOU A 10 DOCUMENT. 11 A THAT'S GREAT. YOU KNOW - 12 OKAY . 13 Q BUT YOU WEREN'T CONVINCED THAT YOU WERE 14 GOING TO BE ABLE TO SHOW THAT AROCLOR 1242 WAS 15 BIODEGRADABLE, RIGHT? 16 A OH, NO, THAT'S NOT TRUE AT ALL. 17 I WAS CONVINCED THAT THAT WAS PROBABLY 18 THE CASE. 19 Q WELL, YOU STATE, "IN ORDER TO ASSURE THAT 20 THERE IS NO -- INSURE THERE IS NO MISUNDERSTANDING, 2 1 IT SHOULD BE STRESSED THAT THE PROBABILITY OF SUCCESS 22 OF THESE STUDIES" -- AND YOU ARE REFERRING TO THE 23 BIODEGRADATION STUDIES OF AROCLOR 1242 -- "IS ON THE 24 ORDER OF 75 PERCENT." RIGHT? 25 A AT THAT POINT IN TIME THAT WAS THE - 2 6 THAT WAS THE BET I WAS WILLING TO MAKE. 27 THAT IS PRETTY GOOD ODDS. 28 Q IT TURNED OUT TO HAVE BEEN NOT SUCH GOOD HARTOLDMON0043710 3 64 9 1 ODDS FOR THE CL FIVES AND SIXES WHICH MAKE UP 10 2 PERCENT OF AROCLOR 1242, RIGHT? 3 A THAT'S CORRECT. THAT IS WHY I WASN'T 4 WILLING TO BET 100 PERCENT. 5 Q YOU ARE THERE AT THAT POINT IN TIME, 6 NOVEMBER, 1969, WAS THAT WHAT YOU WERE ACTUALLY 7 SEEING IN THE ENVIRONMENT WAS AROCLOR 1242, THE 8 BIGGEST SELLER THAT MONSANTO HAD, WHICH WAS IN 9 CARBONLESS CARBON PAPER, WHICH WAS IN TURBINOL, WHICH 10 WAS IN A HOST OF OTHER PRODUCTS, THAT WHAT YOU WERE 11 SEEING WAS AROCLOR 1242 WITH EVERYTHING BUT THE FIVES 12 AND SIXES AND HIGHER DEGRADED, RIGHT? 13 A NO, THAT WASN'T MY OPINION, AT ALL. 14 I DIDN'T HAVE INFORMATION TO SUPPORT THAT 15 AND I STILL DON'T. 16 Q BUT THAT WAS A THEORY THAT YOU HAD, 17 RIGHT? 18 A NO . 19 MY THEORY WAS THAT WHAT WE WERE SEEING IN 20 THE ENVIRONMENT WERE PENTACHLORO BIPHENYLS AND 2 1 ABOVE. 22 AND THAT THOSE PRODUCTS WERE DOMINANTLY 23 THE MATERIALS THAT WERE PROBABLY ONES THAT WERE 24 CONTRIBUTING TO IT. 25 AND THEREFORE, IF YOU TOOK THOSE OUT OF 2 6 CIRCULATION, YOU WOULDN'T BE CONTRIBUTING TO THAT 27 LEVEL OF MATERIALS ANYMORE. YOU MIGHT SOLVE YOUR 28 PROBLEM. HARTOLDMON0043711 3650 1 THAT IS THE WAY I FELT AT THAT POINT IN 2 TIME. 3 AS YOU POINTED OUT, WE DIDN'T HAVE 4 INFORMATION TO SUPPORT THAT SO WE NEEDED TO GENERATE 5 INFORMATION TO SUPPORT THAT PARTICULAR CONCLUSION. 6 Q BUT WHAT YOU SAID TO DR. RICHARD WAS, "IT 7 COULD POSSIBLY BE THAT THE CL FOUR THROUGH CL NINE 8 PC B ISOMERS BEING FOUND ARE WHAT IS LEFT AFTER 9 AROCLOR 1242 HAS BEEN BIODEGRADED"? 10 A THAT IS POSSIBLE. 11 THAT IS WHY WE NEEDED TO DO THESE 12 PARTICULAR EXPERIMENTS. 13 Q OKAY. WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE CHART WITH 14 WHAT YOU EXPLAINED TO MR. PREUSS AS A SUMMARY OF ALL 15 THE RESEARCH YOU COULD FIND ON PCB'S UP TO THIS POINT 16 IN 11-69, THE FIRST RESULTS I SHOW WITH YOUR NAME 17 NEXT TO THEM THAT INDICATE THAT YOU USED THAT MASS 18 SPECTROMETER WHICH WAS THE EXPENSIVE PIECE OF 19 MACHINERY, IS 10-30-69. 20 THAT IS ON THE LAST PAGE THERE. 2 1 NOW, IS THAT CONSISTENT WITH YOUR 2 2 RECOLLECTION THAT IT TOOK A YEAR OR MAYBE A YEAR AND 23 A HALF TO GET THAT MACHINE UP AND RUNNING? 24 A THESE ARE ENVIRONMENTAL SAMPLES. 2 5 WE PROBABLY RAN IT WITH STANDARDS AND 2 6 THINGS OF THAT SORT, THINGS WE SPIKED EARLIER THAN 27 THAT. 28 YEAH, SURE. HARTOLDMON0043712 3651 1 THIS IS, YOU KNOW, AT THIS POINT IN TIME, 2 25 YEARS LATER, THIS STUFF LOOKS PRETTY EASY. 3 BUT AT THAT POINT IN TIME THIS WAS ROCKET 4 SCIENCE. 5 THIS WAS NOT EASY. 6 THESE WERE NOT THINGS PEOPLE KNEW. 7 IT WAS LIKE BEING IN A CAVE WITH NO 8 LIGHT. 9 SO INITIALLY YOU KIND OF FELT YOUR WAY 10 AROUND TO SEE WHERE YOU WERE AT. IT TOOK TIME. 11 THESE KINDS OF THINGS DEVELOP 12 EXPONENTIALLY. 13 THEY START OUT SLOW AND AS YOU ACCUMULATE 14 MORE INFORMATION SUDDENLY THINGS START HAPPENING VERY 15 RAPIDLY. 16 I THINK THAT IS BASICALLY WHAT THE RECORD 17 SHOWS. 18 Q YOU DIDN`T WANT TO REINVENT THE WHEEL? 19 A NO. 2 0 WHAT IT SHOWS IS THAT AS WE GAINED MORE 2 1 AND MORE KNOWLEDGE WE WOULD BE ABLE TO MOVE FORWARD 22 MORE QUICKLY. 2 3 I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT THIS AND YOU WOULD 2 4 TAKE THESE PUBLICATIONS AND YOU WOULD COUNT THEM UP, 25 THE ONES FOR 1966, THE ONE FOR 1967, THE ONES FOR 2 6 1968, THE ONES FOR 1969, AND YOU WOULD PLOT THOSE ON 27 A CHART THAT HAD YEARS HERE AND NUMBERS HERE, WHAT 2 8 YOU WOULD FIND OUT IS THAT THERE WERE THREE IN 1966, HARTOLDMON0043713 3 652 1 THREE OR SEVEN IN 1967, THREE OR SEVEN IN 1968 AND IN 2 1969 THERE WERE 93 PUBLICATIONS OF WHICH 75 PERCENT 3 WERE MONSANTO. 4 SO WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY IS THAT, YOU 5 KNOW, YOU START OUT, UNTIL YOU KNOW WHERE YOU ARE 6 GOING TO GO YOU DON'T DO A LOT. 7 WHEN YOU FIND OUT EXACTLY HOW YOU DO 8 THINGS, IT'S JUST A MATTER OF DOING IT OVER AND OVER 9 AGAIN AS FAST AS YOU CAN. THAT IS RESEARCH AND 10 DEVELOPMENT. THAT IS WHERE WE WERE AND THAT IS WHAT 11 WE WERE DOING. 12 Q THESE ARE DATED 10-30-69, RIGHT? 13 A YES, MA'AM, THESE ARE. 14 Q NOW, FOR THREE YEARS FROM WHEN MONSANTO 15 FIRST LEARNED THAT THE SCIENTISTS IN SWEDEN HAD FOUND 16 PCB'S IN INFANT HAIR, RIGHT? 17 A A LITTLE LESS THAN THREE YEARS, YES. 18 THREE YEARS FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES, 19 YES, MA'AM. 20 Q IF YOU WANTED TO KNOW IF THOSE WERE PCB'S 2 1 THAT THEY WERE FINDING, WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST GO OVER 22 TO SWEDEN AND POUR YOUR STUFF INTO THAT SWEDISH 2 3 MACHINE? 24 A OKAY. 2 5 FIRST OF ALL, WE HAD PEOPLE THAT WENT TO 26 SWEDEN AND ASSERTED THAT THEY WERE PCB'S. 27 EARLY ON, JUST SHORTLY AFTER THE 28 PUBLICATION, NOBODY DENIED THE FACT THAT THEY WERE HARTOLDMONOQ43714 3 653 1 PCB'S. 2 IN FACT, WE NEVER DENIED THE FACT THAT 3 THOSE WERE PCB'S. 4 WE AGREED THAT THEY WERE PCB'S. 5 OUR PROBLEM IS THAT WE DIDN'T KNOW WHERE 6 THOSE PCB'S WERE COMING FROM. 7 THEY CERTAINLY WEREN'T DUPLICATES OF OUR 8 AROCLOR PRODUCTS THAT WE MANUFACTURED. 9 AND SO FROM OUR VIEWPOINT THEY COULD HAVE 10 BEEN CONTAMINANTS AND FROM SOME OTHER KIND OF 11 PROCESS, THEY COULD HAVE BEEN COMING FROM A LOT OF 12 DIFFERENT PLACES AND THEY WERE ONLY BEING FOUND IN 13 ONE PLACE. 14 SO THEIR NEEDED TO BE A LOT MORE 15 INFORMATION GENERATED TO BEGIN TO FIND OUT WHAT TO DO 16 ABOUT A PRODUCT THAT HAD BEEN MANUFACTURED SAFELY FOR 17 40 YEARS, HAD BEEN USED TO PROTECT PEOPLE IN 18 DIELECTRIC USES AND CAPACITOR USAGES AND TRANSFORMER 19 USAGES AND THINGS OF THAT SORT THAT WERE SAFE 2 0 MATERIALS. 21 YOU HAD TO HAVE GOOD SCIENTIFIC 22 INFORMATION TO DECIDE WHAT YOU NEEDED TO DO ABOUT 23 THAT PARTICULAR PRODUCT LINE THAT HAD BEEN SO SAFE 24 FOR SO MANY YEARS. 2 5 SO IT'S JUST A PROCESS OF DOING IT RIGHT 2 6 AND GENERATING THE INFORMATION THAT PEOPLE NEED TO 2 7 MAKE THE PROPER KINDS OF DECISIONS. 28 IT TAKES TIME. HARTOLDMONOQ43715 3 654 1 NOW, IF, IN YOUR ESTIMATION, THREE YEARS 2 IS TOO LONG, YOU HAD TO BE THERE. 3 Q LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT ONE OTHER THING. 4 THAT IS MCS-1016, ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH 5 THAT PRODUCT? 6 A YES, MA'AM, I AM. 7 Q WHAT IS MCS-1016? 8 A MCS IS AN AROCLOR 1042 WHICH HAS BEEN 9 DISTILLED TO REMOVE THE 10 PERCENT AND ABOVE ISOMERS 10 THAT WERE DETERMINED NOT TO BIODEGRADE OVER A PERIOD 11 OF TIME, I.E. REFRACTORY. 12 Q EXHIBIT 371. 13 SO EXHIBIT 371 SHOWS THAT YOU TAKE 14 AROCLOR 1242 AND YOU TAKE OFF THE ONES THAT DON'T 15 BIODEGRADE, RIGHT? 16 A IT SHOWS THAT IF YOU REMOVE THE 10 17 PERCENT, THAT YOU HAVE A PRODUCT THAT CONTAINS THESE 18 OTHER THINGS. 19 THAT IS WHAT MCS-1016 WAS. 2 0 I'M NOT SURE IT SHOWS ALL THE THINGS THAT 2 1 YOU SAID. 22 BUT THAT IS WHAT IT SHOWS. 2 3 Q AND MONSANTO DETERMINED THAT -- OR YOU 24 DETERMINED THAT FROM AN ENVIRONMENTAL VIEWPOINT 25 MCS-1016 WAS AT LEAST 10 TIMES BETTER THAN AROCLOR 26 1242, RIGHT? 27 A THAT'S CORRECT. 2 8 Q AND MCS-1016 WAS NEVER USED TO PRODUCE HARTOLDMONOQ43716 3655 1 TURBINOL, RIGHT? 2 A I DON'T THINK IT WAS, NO. 3 I'M SURE -- I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT, BUT 4 I'M SURE IT WASN'T. 5 Q NOW, YOU WENT OVER WITH MR. PREUSS A 6 DOCUMENT THAT WAS A PCB TASK FORCE PRESENTATION, 7 RIGHT? 8 A YES, MA'AM. 9 Q THAT WAS EXHIBIT 241. 10 WHEN WAS THAT PRESENTATION? 11 A LET ME GET IT. 12 BUT I THINK IT WAS IN MAY OF '72, MAY 15, 13 1972 . 14 IT WAS A DOCUMENT WHAT WAS THE NUMBER? 15 Q I THINK IT WAS 241. 16 A 241. 17 OKAY. IT WAS MAY 15, 1972. 18 Q OKAY. NOW, BY MAY 15, 1972 MONSANTO 19 WASN'T MANUFACTURING PCB-CONTAINING LUBRICANTS 20 ANYMORE, WAS IT? 2 1 A YOU ARE TELLING ME. 2 2 I DON'T KNOW THAT SPECIFICALLY. 2 3 I DON'T HAVE ANY REASON TO NOT BELIEVE 24 IT. 25 Q DO YOU KNOW WHAT PRODUCTS MONSANTO WAS 26 STILL SELLING IN MAY OF 1972 THAT HAD PCB'S IN THEM? 27 A I DO NOT RECALL. 28 I DO KNOW THAT THEY HAD TAKEN ACTIONS IN HARTOLDMONOQ43717 3656 1 THOSE AREAS, 2 AND I'M SURE IF YOU WENT THROUGH RECORDS, 3 YOU COULD DOCUMENT THAT. 4 Q OKAY. LET ME SHOW YOU ANOTHER DOCUMENT, 5 DR. TUCKER. 6 THAT IS EXHIBIT 213. 7 DO YOU HAVE THAT IN FRONT OF YOU? 8 A I THINK SO, 9 Q THAT IS DATED OCTOBER 1ST, 1971, RIGHT? 10 A YES, MA'AM. 11 Q AND YOUR NAME IS THERE, IS THAT YOU? IS 12 THAT A DIFFERENT TUCKER? 13 A I AM NOT AWARE OF ANY J. E TUCKER THAT 14 WORKED FOR MONSANTO, SO I WOULD GUESS THAT WAS 15 PROBABLY ME, TO BE HONEST WITH YOU. 16 Q WHAT THIS DOCUMENT SHOWS IS THAT IN 17 SWEDEN, BY OCTOBER, 1971 PCB'S WERE BANNED, RIGHT? 18 A NO . 19 ACTUALLY I THINK YOU PROBABLY NEED TO 2 0 READ THE SENTENCE. 21 THE SWEDISH GOVERNMENT HAS BANNED THE 22 IMPORT OF ALL PCB'S AND PCB-CONTAINING PRODUCTS 23 EXCEPT FOR THE DIELECTRIC INDUSTRY. 24 Q AND DIELECTRICS WERE THOSE FLUIDS THAT 2 5 ARE WELDED INTO CONTAINERS, RIGHT? 26 A I DON'T THINK THEY ARE WELDED. 27 THEY ARE IN A SEALED CONTAINER, YES. 28 Q THEY ARE NOT LUBRICATING OILS USED UNDER HARTOLDMON0043718 3 657 1 HIGH PRESSURE? 2 A NO, THEY ARE A CONTAINED USAGE WHICH - 3 YES, CORRECT. 4 Q AND WHAT THIS DOCUMENT SHOWS IS THAT IN 5 HOLLAND THERE WAS ACTIVE CONSIDERATION OF A BAN OF 6 PCB'S, CORRECT? 7 A THAT IS WHAT IT SAYS, YES. 8 Q AND IF YOU FLIP OVER TO THE NEXT PAGE 9 THIS DOCUMENT SHOWS THAT THE U.N. WILL HOLD 10 CONFERENCES ON THE HUMAN ENVIRONMENT IN THE SPRING OF 11 1972 . 12 "A GROUP OF NOBEL SCIENTISTS INTEND TO 13 SPONSOR A RESOLUTION THAT WILL ASK FOR GLOBAL 14 RESTRICTIONS ON PRODUCTION AND USE OF PCB'S," RIGHT? 15 A THAT IS WHAT IT SAYS, YES, MA'AM. 16 Q AND IN JAPAN, ALTHOUGH THERE IS NOT YET A 17 BAN, THERE WAS A LOT OF CONTROVERSY, RIGHT? 18 A THAT IS WHAT IT SAYS. 19 Q SO THIS PC B TASK FORCE PRESENTATION THAT 20 YOU GAVE IN THE SPRING OF 1972 FOLLOWED ALL OF THESE 2 1 REGULATORY ACTIVITIES, RIGHT? 22 A CHRONOLOGICALLY, YES, MA'AM. 23 MS. GRADY: NOTHING FURTHER AT THIS TIME. 24 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. 25 REDIRECT, MR. PREUSS? 2 6 /// 27 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 28 BY MR. PREUSS: HARTOLDMON0043719 3 658 1 Q DR. TUCKER, WERE YOU INVOLVED IN 2 REFORMULATIONS AS PART OF YOUR JOB? 3 A NO, SIR, REFORMULATIONS WERE NOT PART OF 4 MY JOB. 5 MR. PREUSS: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS. 6 THE COURT: MAY THIS WITNESS NOW BE EXCUSED 7 MR. PREUSS? 8 MR. PREUSS: YES, YOUR HONOR. 9 THE COURT: AND MS. GRADY? 10 MS. GRADY: YES, YOUR HONOR. 11 THE COURT: THANK YOU, DR. TUCKER, FOR YOUR 12 ATTENDANCE AT THIS TRIAL. 13 YOU ARE EXCUSED FROM FURTHER ATTENDANCE. 14 A FURTHER WITNESS, MR. PREUSS? 15 MR. PREUSS: WE HAVE ANOTHER READING, YOUR 16 HONOR. 17 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. 18 MR. ZIMMER: YOUR HONOR, I WOULD LIKE TO READ 19 FROM THE DEPOSITION OF EARL P. FARMER TAKEN ON 20 SEPTEMBER 9, 1992. 2 1 THE COURT: AND THE LAST NAME IS SPELLED. 2 2 MR. ZIMMER: F-A-R-M-E-R. 23 THE COURT: GO AHEAD WHEN YOU ARE READY, 24 MR. ZIMMER. 2 5 MR. ZIMMER: I WILL ALLOW MS. GRADY A MOMENT TO 2 6 FIND IT. 27 MS. GRADY: THANK YOU. 2 8 MR. ZIMMER: (READING): HARTOLDMON0043720 3 659 1 Q WOULD YOU STATE YOUR FULL NAME 2 FOR THE RECORD, SIR. 3 A EARL P. FARMER. 4 Q WHAT IS YOUR DATE OF BIRTH, SIR? 5 A DECEMBER 16, 1930. 6 Q AFTER GRADUATING FROM HIGH SCHOOL 7 DID YOU THEN ATTEND LOUISIANA 8 STATE UNIVERSITY IN BATON ROUGE? 9 A YES . 10 Q WAS THERE SOMETHING YOU DID IN 11 BETWEEN? 12 A YEAH, I SERVED IN THE MILITARY 13 BETWEEN START AND FINISH. 14 Q OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WHAT BRANCH OF 15 THE MILITARY DID YOU SERVE? 16 A U.S. ARMY. 17 Q THEN AFTER CONCLUDING YOUR STINT 18 IN THE U.S. ARMY, DID YOU ENROLL 19 IN L.S.U.? 2 0 A YES . 2 1 Q DID YOU RECEIVE A BACHELOR OF 2 2 SCIENCE DEGREE IN CHEMICAL 23 ENGINEERING FROM L.S.U. IN 1957? 24 A YES, I DID. 25 Q AFTER RECEIVING THAT BACHELOR OF 26 SCIENCE DEGREE DID YOU TAKE 27 GRADUATE COURSES IN CHEMICAL 28 ENGINEERING? HARTOLDMONOQ43721 3 660 1 A YES, I DID. 2 Q AND WHEN WOULD THAT HAVE BEEN? 3 A IN THE EARLY 60'S. 4 Q UPON GRADUATING FROM LOUISIANA 5 STATE UNIVERSITY IN 1957, DID YOU 6 THEN START WORK AT TEXAS EASTERN? 7 A I DID. 8 Q AND WHAT WAS THE FULL NAME OF THE 9 COMPANY YOU STARTED WORK FOR? 10 A TEXAS EASTERN TRANSMISSION 11 CORPORATION. 12 Q MR. FARMER, LET ME DIRECT YOUR 13 ATTENTION TO THE LATE 1950'S, 14 EARLY 1960'S WHEN YOU WERE EITHER 15 A JUNIOR ENGINEER OR AN ASSISTANT 16 ENGINEER IN THE COMPRESSOR 17 STATION SECTION OF THE DESIGN AND 18 CONSTRUCTION GROUP, 19 AT THAT TIME WERE YOU INVOLVED IN 20 SELECTION OF A SYNTHETIC 2 1 LUBRICANT FOR USE IN CERTAIN 22 TEXAS EASTERN COMPRESSORS AND 23 TURBINES? 24 A YES . 25 Q AND AT THE TIME YOU WERE ASSIGNED 26 THE TASK OF SELECTING A SYNTHETIC 27 LUBRICANT BY FRANK GORDON. WAS 28 THERE ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL WITHIN HARTOLDMON0043722 3 661 1 THE COMPRESSOR STATION SECTION 2 WHO WAS ALSO WORKING ON THAT 3 PROJECT? 4 A YES, I THINK THERE WAS. OLIVER 5 FLETCHER WAS INVOLVED. 6 I THINK HE WAS THE TEAM LEADER. 7 Q WOULD YOU AGREE THAT THERE WAS A 8 TASK FORCE OR STUDY GROUP 9 ASSIGNED TO INVESTIGATE TEXAS 10 EASTERN'S USE OF SYNTHETIC 11 LUBRICANTS? 12 A I WOULD SAY YES. 13 Q AND MR. FLETCHER WAS THE TEAM 14 LEADER OF THAT GROUP? 15 A YES, HE WAS. 16 Q NOW, DO YOU RECALL ANYONE ELSE 17 BESIDES OLLIE FLETCHER AND 18 YOURSELF WHO PARTICIPATED IN THAT 19 STUDY GROUP? 20 A I DON'T RECALL ANYONE ELSE. 2 1 Q WAS CONRAD MARVIN A MEMBER OF 2 2 THAT GROUP? 23 A I DON'T THINK SO. 24 HE WAS IN A SUPERVISORY 25 CAPACITY. 26 Q I THINK THAT IS TRUE. 27 NOW, SIR, YOU DON'T CONSIDER 28 YOURSELF A LUBRICATING EXPERT, DO HARTOLDMON0043723 3 6 62 1 YOU? 2 A I DO NOT. 3 Q WITHIN THAT GROUP WHO WAS IT THAT 4 HAD THE LUBRICATING EXPERTISE? 5 A I DON'T KNOW OF ANY PARTICULAR 6 PERSON THAT WOULD BE AN EXPERT IN 7 LUBRICATING, 8 Q DID YOU SEEK INPUT FROM ANYONE 9 OUTSIDE THE GROUP WITH EXPERTISE 10 IN THE AREA OF LUBRICATION? 11 A I DO NOT RECALL. 12 Q NOW, YOU DID NOTBELONG TO THE 13 AMERICAN SOCIETY OF LUBRICATION 14 ENGINEERS, DID YOU? 15 A NO. 16 Q DO YOU KNOW OF ANYONE AT TEXAS 17 EASTERN AT THAT TIME PERIOD WHO 18 BELONGED TO THE AMERICAN SOCIETY 19 OF LUBRICATION ENGINEERS? 2 0 A I'M NOT AWARE OF ANYONE WHO WAS A 2 1 MEMBER. 2 2 Q AND AS I UNDERSTAND IT, YOU ALSO 2 3 HAD NO EXPERIENCE OR KNOWLEDGE OF 24 THE INTERNAL SYSTEMS ON A 2 5 COMPRESSOR, IS THAT TRUE, SIR? 2 6 A I'M NOT AN EXPERT ON COMPRESSOR 2 7 DESIGN. 28 Q MY QUESTION REALLY WENT A LITTLE HARTOLDMON0043724 3 66 3 1 BIT FURTHER THAN THAT. 2 NOT ONLY DO YOU NOT CONSIDER 3 YOURSELF AN EXPERT IN COMPRESSOR 4 DESIGN BUT YOU REALLY DON'T 5 CONSIDER YOURSELF AS HAVING ANY 6 EXPERIENCE OR KNOWLEDGE OF THE 7 INTERNAL WORKINGS OR SYSTEMS OF 8 GAS COMPRESSORS? 9 A I'M AWARE OF THE THEORETICAL 10 WORKINGS OF THE COMPRESSOR. 11 AS TO THE MECHANICAL DESIGN, I 12 HAVE VERY LIMITED KNOWLEDGE. 13 Q OKAY. TO THE BEST OF YOUR 14 KNOWLEDGE, DID OLLIE FLETCHER 15 HAVE KNOWLEDGE OR EXPERIENCE OF 16 THE INTERNAL SYSTEMS OR WORKINGS 17 OF GAS COMPRESSORS? 18 A I REALLY DON'T KNOW. 19 Q WHO IN THE SYNTHETIC LUBRICANT 20 STUDY GROUP HAD SUCH EXPERIENCE 21 OR KNOWLEDGE? 22 A NOBODY IN MY KNOWLEDGE. 2 3 WE WOULD PULL FROM OTHER GROUPS 24 INFORMATION LIKE THAT. 2 5 Q IN TERMS OF YOUR PARTICULAR JOB 2 6 AS PART OF THIS STUDY GROUP AND 27 THAT IS INVESTIGATION OF AND 28 ULTIMATELY SELECTION OF A HARTOLDMON0043725 3 664 1 FIRE-RESISTANT LUBRICANT FOR USE 2 IN CERTAIN TEXAS EASTERN NATURAL 3 GAS COMPRESSORS, AS PART OF THAT 4 STUDY WHO DID YOU GO TO FOR 5 PURPOSES OF THE NECESSARY 6 INFORMATION CONCERNING THE 7 INTERNAL WORKINGS OF THESE 8 NATURAL GAS COMPRESSORS? 9 A OUR BASIC ASSIGNMENT, AS I 10 RECALL, WAS TO EVALUATE THE 11 FLUIDS ON THE MARKET. 12 WE DIDN'T HAVE TO EVALUATE THE 13 INTERNAL DESIGN OF UNITS TO USE 14 THE FLUIDS. 15 Q NOW, I BELIEVE AT SOME POINT YOUR 16 STUDY GROUP DID MAKE A 17 RECOMMENDATION THAT A PARTICULAR 18 LUBRICANT BE USED BY TEXAS 19 EASTERN; IS THAT CORRECT? 2 0 A OBVIOUSLY A RECOMMENDATION WAS 2 1 MADE . 22 Q ALL RIGHT. AND TO THE BEST OF 23 YOUR KNOWLEDGE THAT 24 RECOMMENDATION WAS FOLLOWED? 25 A THAT'S CORRECT. 26 Q THE RECOMMENDATION WAS THAT A 2 7 MONSANTO PRODUCT CALLED OS-81 BE 28 USED AS A SYNTHETIC LUBRICANT, HARTOLDMON0043726 3665 1 CORRECT? 2 A IT WAS A MONSANTO PRODUCT BUT MY 3 MEMORY IS VERY HAZY AS TO THE 4 SEQUENCE THESE PRODUCTS CAME OUT 5 IN . 6 Q OKAY. IN THE COURSE OF YOUR WORK 7 FOR THIS SYNTHETIC LUBRICANTS 8 WORK, MR. FARMER, YOU REVIEWED 9 MATERIALS RELATING TO SEVERAL 10 MONSANTO PRODUCTS; IS THAT 11 CORRECT? 12 A THAT'S CORRECT. 13 Q DO YOU RECALL REVIEWING MATERIALS 14 RELATING TO MONSANTO'S PYDRAUL 15 LINE? 16 A THE TERM "PYDRAUL" IS FAMILIAR. 17 Q IS IT YOUR BEST RECOLLECTION AS 18 YOU SIT HERE TODAY THAT YOU 19 REVIEWED MATERIALS RELATING TO 2 0 MONSANTO'S PYDRAUL LINE OF 2 1 FLUIDS? 22 A TO THE BEST OF MY MEMORY WE 2 3 REVIEWED ANY MATERIAL THAT WAS 24 FIRE RESISTANT. 25 BUT PYDRAUL IS A FAMILIAR NAME, 26 I'M SURE WE LOOKED AT IT. 27 Q IS IT ALSO TRUE, MR. FARMER, THAT 28 IN 1958 YOU UNDERSTOOD THAT THE HARTOLDMONOQ43727 3 666 1 CHEMICAL COMPOSITION OF OS-81 WAS 2 A CHLORINATED POLYPHENYL IN A 3 PHOSPHATE ESTER MIX? 4 A THE TERMS ARE FAMILIAR. 5 THE CHEMICAL NAMES ARE FAMILIAR, 6 YES . 7 Q WELL, YOU WOULD AGREE WOULDN'T 8 YOU, MR. FARMER, THAT IN THE 9 COURSE OF YOUR STUDY WITH THIS 10 GROUP YOU DID LEARN FROM MONSANTO 11 WHAT THE CHEMICAL COMPOSITION OF 12 THIS PRODUCT WAS? 13 A THAT IS CORRECT. 14 Q MONSANTO DID NOT ATTEMPT TO HIDE 15 FROM YOU OR YOUR GROUP THE 16 CHEMICAL COMPOSITION OF THIS 17 FLUID, THAT'S CORRECT, ISN'T IT, 18 MR. FARMER? 19 A NO, NO. 2 0 I'M JUST THINKING. 2 1 MONSANTO TOLD US THE COMPOSITION 2 2 OF THE COMPOUNDS. 23 Q WHEN YOU SAY "THECOMPOSITION," 24 YOU ARE REFERRING SPECIFICALLY TO 25 THE CHEMICAL COMPOSITION,* IS THAT 26 CORRECT? 27 A THAT'S CORRECT. 28 Q IS IT YOUR BESTRECOLLECTION AS HARTOLDMON0043728 3 667 1 YOU SIT HERE TODAY, MR. FARMER, 2 ASSISTED BY THAT QUESTION AND THE 3 ANSWER THAT I READ TO YOU FROM 4 YOUR PRIOR SWORN DEPOSITION 5 TESTIMONY THAT IN 1958 IT WAS 6 YOUR UNDERSTANDING THAT THE 7 CHEMICAL COMPOSITION OF 8 MONSANTO'S OS-81 WAS A 9 CHLORINATED POLYPHENYL IN A 10 PHOSPHATE ESTER MIX? 11 A TO THE BEST OF MY MEMORY THAT IS 12 CORRECT. 13 Q AND THAT INFORMATION WAS GIVEN TO 14 YOU BY MONSANTO, CORRECT? 15 A THAT'S CORRECT. 16 Q WAS IT PROVIDED ORALLY, IN 17 WRITING OR BOTH? 18 A BOTH. 19 Q IN YOUR JOB AS A MEMBER OF THE 20 STUDY GROUP EVALUATING 2 1 FIRE-RESISTANT LUBRICANTS AND 2 2 ULTIMATELY MAKING A 23 RECOMMENDATION THAT A CERTAIN 24 FIRE-RESISTANT LUBRICANT BE USED, 25 DID YOU PASS ON THE CHEMICAL - 2 6 DID YOU PASS ON THE CHEMICAL 27 COMPOSITION TO ANYONE ELSE? 28 A I BELIEVE THE CHEMICAL HARTOLDMONOQ43729 3 66 8 1 COMPOSITION WAS A MATTER OF 2 RECORD WITHIN TEXAS EASTERN. 3 Q BY THAT YOU MEAN YOU PASSED IT ON 4 BOTH ORALLY AND IN WRITING TO THE 5 APPROPRIATE INDIVIDUALS AT TEXAS 6 EASTERN, CORRECT? 7 A THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN A WRITTEN 8 RECORD, YES. 9 Q DID YOU PREPARE A WRITTEN RECORD, 10 MR. FARMER? 11 A I PREPARED A WRITTEN RECORD. 12 Q AND FORWARDED THAT WRITTEN RECORD 13 TO THE APPROPRIATE INDIVIDUALS 14 THAT YOU WERE REPORTING TO WITHIN 15 THE TEXAS EASTERN ORGANIZATION, 16 CORRECT? 17 A THAT'S CORRECT. 18 Q BUT YOU KNOW THAT A COPY WAS SENT 19 TO THE APPROPRIATE INDIVIDUALS? 20 A OH, YES. 2 1 Q WOULD YOU AGREE, MR. FARMER, THAT 22 YOU UNDERSTOOD IN 1958 THAT 2 3 CHLORINATED POLY.PHENYLS WAS A 24 CHEMICAL COMPOUND CONTAINING ONE 25 OR MORE CHLORINE ATOMS AND ONE OR 26 MORE MOLECULES OF AN ORGANIC 27 CHEMICAL COMPOUND KNOWN AS A 2 8 PHENYL? HARTOLDMON0043730 3 669 1 A THAT'S CORRECT. 2 Q WOULD YOU AGREE THAT A 3 CHLORINATED POLYPHENYL COULD ALSO 4 BE -- FORGIVE ME. 5 WOULD YOU AGREE THAT A 6 CHLORINATED POLYPHENYL COULD ALSO 7 BE ACCURATELY DESCRIBED AS A 8 CHLORINATED HYDROCARBON? 9 WAS IT YOUR UNDERSTANDING THAT IN 10 1958 THE CHLORINATED POLYPHENYL 11 COULD ALSO BE DESCRIBED AS A 12 CHLORINATED HYDROCARBON? 13 A SINCE ANY COMPOUND THAT WAS 14 HYDROGEN AND CARBON IS A 15 HYDROCARBON, THE ANSWER WOULD BE 16 YES . 17 Q OKAY. BECAUSE A POLYPHENYL IS A 18 COMPOUND THAT HAS HYDROGEN AND 19 CARBON, RIGHT? 2 0 A THAT'S CORRECT. 2 1 Q SO A CHLORINATED POLYPHENYL COULD 2 2 ALSO BE DESCRIBED AS A 23 CHLORINATED HYDROCARBON, TRUE? 24 A THAT ' S CORRECT. 25 Q WITH YOUR EDUCATION AND 26 EXPERIENCE AS A CHEMICAL 27 ENGINEER, DO YOU BELIEVE THERE 2 8 WOULD HAVE BEEN ANYTHING HARTOLDMONOQ43731 3670 1 MISLEADING OR DECEPTIVE IN THE 2 LATE 1950'S AND EARLY 1960'S IN 3 DESCRIBING A CHLORINATED 4 POLYPHENYL AS A CHLORINATED 5 HYDROCARBON? 6 A I DON'T THINK I UNDERSTAND YOUR 7 QUESTION. 8 Q ALL I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT, 9 MR. FARMER, IF YOU THINK IT'S 10 MISLEADING FOR A COMPANY SUCH AS 11 MONSANTO TO DESCRIBE CHLORINATED 12 POLYPHENYL AS A CHLORINATED 13 HYDROCARBON? 14 A BASED ON MY KNOWLEDGE I WOULDN'T 15 EXPECT THAT TO BE MISLEADING. 16 Q WOULD YOU THINK THERE WOULD BE 17 ANYTHING MISLEADING IN DESCRIBING 18 A CHLORINATED BIPHENYL AS A 19 CHLORINATED HYDROCARBON? 20 A WELL, BASED ON THE PREVIOUS 2 1 ANSWERS IT'S OBVIOUS THAT THE 2 2 TERMINOLOGY IS INTERCHANGEABLE. 23 Q THAT THERE WOULDN'T BE ANYTHING 24 MISLEADING ABOUT DESCRIBING 25 CHLORINATED BIPHENYL AS A 26 CHLORINATED HYDROCARBON, CORRECT? 27 A THAT'S CORRECT. 2 8 Q IN CORRESPONDENCE OF STUDY GROUPS HARTOLDMONOQ43732 3 67 1 1 THERE WERE PRODUCTS FROM VARIOUS 2 MANUFACTURERS THAT WERE 3 EVALUATED; IS THAT CORRECT, 4 MR. FARMER? 5 A THAT'S CORRECT. 6 Q AMONG THOSE THERE WAS A PHOSPHATE 7 ESTER MANUFACTURED BY CELANESE 8 CORPORATION, A STRAIGHT PHOSPHATE 9 ESTER CALLED CELLULUBE; IS THAT 10 CORRECT? 11 A WE ARE GOING BACK INTO HISTORY, 12 YOU KNOW. 13 Q LET ME ASK YOU THIS. 14 IN THE COURSE OF EVALUATING AND 15 COMPARING THESE VARIOUS 16 LUBRICANTS, THEY WEREN'T ALL 17 CHLORINATED HYDROCARBONS, TRUE? 18 A THAT'S CORRECT. 19 Q OKAY. MONSANTO PRODUCT WAS A 2 0 CHLORINATED POLYPHENYL OR 2 1 CHLORINATED BIPHENYL, CORRECT? 22 A WHICH MONSANTO PRODUCT ARE YOU -2 3 Q OKAY. WELL, THERE WERE DIFFERENT 24 PRODUCTS MANUFACTURED BY MONSANTO 25 TO THE BEST OF YOUR 2 6 UNDERSTANDING. ONE WAS A 2 7 CHLORINATED POLYPHENYL, ONE WAS A 28 CHLORINATED BIPHENYL, CORRECT? HARTOLDMON0043733 3672 1 A I'M A LITTLE APPREHENSIVE THAT WE 2 ARE THROWING TERMS AROUND THAT 3 ARE TOO INTERCHANGEABLE AND HAVE 4 BEEN USED INTERCHANGEABLY IN THE 5 PAST THAT IT'S GOING TO GET 6 CONFUSING. 7 Q WAS IT YOUR UNDERSTANDING THAT 8 ALL OF THE PRODUCTS BEING 9 CONSIDERED BY MONSANTO, 10 MANUFACTURED BY MONSANTO AND BY 11 THAT I MEAN THE OS-81 AND THE 12 MCS-153 WERE SOME KIND OF 13 CHLORINATED POLYPHENYL, MEANING 14 CHLORINE ATOMS PLUS MORE THAN ONE 15 PHENYL ATOMS; IS THAT CORRECT? 16 A TO THE BEST OF MY MEMORY, THAT IS 17 CORRECT. 18 Q ALL RIGHT. THE COMPETITOR 19 PRODUCTS BEING CONSIDERED WERE 20 NOT CHLORINATED POLYPHENYLS, 2 1 CORRECT? 22 A I DON'T RECALL. 23 Q DO YOU RECALL THAT AT LEAST ONE 24 OF THE OTHER PRODUCTS THAT WAS 2 5 BEING CONSIDERED WAS A STRAIGHT 2 6 PHOSPHATE ESTER BLEND WITH NO 27 CHLORINATED POLYPHENYLS? 28 A TO THE BEST OF MY MEMORY, YES, HARTOLDMON0043734 3 67 3 1 THERE WAS. 2 Q SO IN MAKING YOUR FINAL SELECTION 3 YOU KNEW THERE WERE 4 NON-CHLORINATED OPTIONS 5 AVAILABLE, TRUE? 6 A THAT'S CORRECT. 7 Q WHAT WAS THE PROBLEM WITH THE 8 COMPETITOR PRODUCT THAT DID NOT 9 CONTAIN POLYCHLORINATED 10 BIPHENYLS? 11 A THE MOST SIGNIFICANT PROPERTY OF 12 THE MONSANTO PRODUCTS WAS ITS 13 STABILITY. 14 Q DID YOUR GROUP PRIORITIZE WHAT 15 PROPERTIES WERE THE MOST 16 IMPORTANT FOR THE PUMPS IN YOUR 17 DECISION? 18 A NO, WE DID NOT PUT PRIORITIES ON 19 PROPERTIES, WE TRIED TO FIND THE 20 BEST PRODUCT TO MEET THE 21 GUIDELINE. 22 Q WOULD YOU AGREE THAT THREE 23 IMPORTANT QUALITIES WERE FIRE 24 RESISTANT, EFFECTIVE LUBRICATION 25 AND STABILITY? 2 6 A THAT IS THREE IMPORTANT 27 PROPERTIES, YES. 28 Q WOULD YOU AGREE THAT THOSE WERE HARTOLDMON0043735 3674 1 THE THREE MOST IMPORTANT 2 PROPERTIES? 3 A YES, I THINK SO. 4 Q YOUR GROUP CONCLUDED THE MONSANTO 5 PRODUCT WHICH CONTAINED 6 POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS WAS THE 7 BEST IN TERMS OF MEETING THOSE 8 THREE PROPERTIES? 9 A AT THAT TIME, YES. 10 Q WAS THE REASON THE 11 NON-POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYL 12 PRODUCT WAS NOT AS EFFECTIVE, 13 THAT IT TENDED TO DECOMPOSE AND 14 OXIDIZE? 15 A ON SOME OF THE PRODUCTS, YES. 16 Q AND THE MONSANTO POLYCHLORINATED 17 BIPHENYL PRODUCTS TENDED NOT TO 18 DECOMPOSE AND OXIDIZE, CORRECT? 19 A IT HAD A LONGER LIFE THAN OTHER 2 0 PRODUCTS BEFORE DECOMPOSITION AND 2 1 OXIDATION BECAME SIGNIFICANT. 2 2 Q IT WOULDN'T DECOMPOSE DURING LONG 23 DURATIONS OF OPERATION, CORRECT? 2 4 A NO, I COULDN'T SAY THAT. 25 Q WELL, IT WOULDN'T DECOMPOSE 2 6 DURING LONGER DURATION OF 27 OPERATIONS THAN THE COMPETITOR 28 PRODUCTS, CORRECT? HARTOLDMONOQ43736 3 67 5 1 A BASED ON WHAT OUR EXPERIENCE IS, 2 THE STABILITY OF THE PRODUCT 3 INDICATED A MUCH LONGER LIFE 4 BETWEEN OIL CHANGES. 5 Q WOULD YOU AGREE, MR. FARMER, 6 THEN, THAT THE PREDOMINANT 7 CHARACTERISTIC OF OS-81 THAT LED 8 TO ITS COLLECTION WAS ITS 9 INHERENT STABILITY? 10 A I THINK WE PREVIOUSLY AGREED THAT 11 WAS CORRECT. 12 Q AND WAS IT YOUR UNDERSTANDING IN 13 1958 THAT IT WAS THE POLYPHENYL 14 COMPONENT THAT GAVE THE MONSANTO 15 LUBRICANT ITS INHERENT STABILITY, 16 CORRECT? 17 A TO THE BEST OF MY MEMORY, THAT IS IS THE UNDERSTANDING. 19 Q AND THAT WOULD BE SOMETHING YOU 20 LEARNED FROM MONSANTO? 2 1 A. THAT'S CORRECT. 22 Q IS IT YOUR UNDERSTANDING THAT 23 THIS MONSANTO LUBRICANT WAS USED 24 FOR BOTH THE TURBINE AND THE 25 COMPRESSOR, THAT THEY HAD A 26 COMMON OIL SYSTEM? 27 A SOME MACHINES HAD A COMMON OIL 2 8 SYSTEM. HARTOLDMONOQ43737 3676 1 Q WAS IT YOUR UNDERSTANDING THAT 2 THIS MONSANTO LUBRICANT WAS USED 3 IN THE SEAL OIL SYSTEM OF THE 4 COMPRESSOR? 5 A IT HAD TO BE IN THE COMMON 6 SYSTEM. 7 Q OKAY. WAS IT DISCUSSED WITH 8 MONSANTO? 9 A WELL, I DON'T KNOW. 10 Q YOU DIDN'T ADVISE MONSANTO ABOUT 11 THAT FACTOR? 12 A NO. WE WEREN'T COMPRESSOR 13 DESIGNERS. 14 WE DIDN'T TRY THAT. 15 Q DO YOU KNOW WHO IT WAS THAT ACTED 16 AS THE POINT PERSON WITH MONSANTO 17 IN TERMS OF THE COMPRESSOR DESIGN 18 AND OPERATION? 19 A NO, I DON'T. 20 Q NOW, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, 2 1 MR. FARMER, AT SOME POINT TEXAS 2 2 EASTERN SWITCHED FROM THE 2 3 MONSANTO OS-81 LUBRICANT TO 24 MONSANTO MCS-153; IS THAT YOUR 2 5 UNDERSTANDING? 26 A YES . 27 Q WAS IT YOUR UNDERSTANDING THAT 28 THE NEW MONSANTO LUBRICANT THAT HARTOLDMONOQ43738 3 677 1 WAS SWITCHED OVER TO THE MCS-153, 2 THAT ONE OF THE QUALITIES THAT IT 3 HAD WAS THAT IT HAD A LOWER POUR 4 POINT WHICH MADE IT MORE 5 EFFECTIVE FOR USE IN COLDER 6 CLIMATE OR DURING THE WINTER 7 MONTHS? 8 A TO THE BEST OF MY MEMORY THAT'S 9 CORRECT. 10 Q WHEN YOU KNEW AT THAT TIME THAT 11 THE SWITCHOVER OCCURRED, THAT 12 MCS-153 WAS A CHLORINATED 13 BIPHENYL, CORRECT? 14 A THAT'S CORRECT. 15 Q AND MONSANTO PROVIDED THIS 16 INFORMATION, CORRECT? 17 A THAT'S CORRECT. 18 Q AND IT WAS YOUR UNDERSTANDING, IN 19 FACT, THAT THERE WERE MORE THAN 20 ONE CHLORINE ATOMS ATTACHED TO 2 1 THE BIPHENYL WHICH WOULD MAKE IT 2 2 A POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYL, 23 CORRECT? 24 A THAT'S CORRECT. 25 Q JUST AS THERE WAS A WRITTEN 26 DOCUMENT WITHIN TEXAS EASTERN 27 ADVISING OF THE CHEMICAL 28 COMPOSITION OF THE OS-81, WAS HARTOLDMONOQ43739 3 67 8 1 THERE A WRITTEN DOCUMENT ADVISING 2 OF A CHEMICAL COMPOSITION OF 3 MCS-153 ? 4 A YES, THERE HAD TO BE. 5 Q DID YOU HAVE ANY INVOLVEMENT AT 6 ALL IN THE DECISION TO USE THE 7 MONSANTO SYNTHETIC LUBRICANT IN 8 ONE OF THE REPLACEMENT 9 COMPRESSORS AT THIS CORONA 10 STATION? 11 A DO YOU MEAN, DID I HAVE ANY 12 PERSONAL INVOLVEMENT AT THAT 13 TIME? 14 Q YES. 15 A NO . 16 Q AT SOMEPOINT DIDYOU HAVE SOME 17 PERSONAL INVOLVEMENT IN THE 18 CORONA STATION ON THE 19 TRANSWESTERN SYSTEM? 20 A I DO NOT EVEN KNOW WHERE IT IS. 21 I HAD NO INVOLVEMENT WITH THE 2 2 TRANSWESTERN COMPRESSOR STATIONS, 2 3 EVER . 24 Q IN ROUGHLYJANUARY OF 1972 DID 2 5 YOU LEARN THAT MONSANTO WAS 2 6 WITHDRAWING THE MCS-153 AND 27 TURBINOL-153 FROM THE MARKET? 28 A I DO NOT KNOW WHEN, BUT THE HARTOLDMON0043740 3679 1 OPERATING DEPARTMENT INFORMED US 2 THAT MONSANTO WOULD NO LONGER 3 PROVIDE THEIR PRODUCTS. 4 Q AND AT THAT TIME YOU LEARNED THAT 5 THE REASON FOR MONSANTO CEASING 6 THE PRODUCTION OF THOSE PRODUCTS 7 WAS THAT THERE WAS SOME CONCERN 8 THESE PRODUCTS PERSISTED IN THE 9 ENVIRONMENT AND PRESENTED AN 10 ENVIRONMENTAL HAZARD? 11 A I DID NOT LEARN THAT. 12 Q WHEN DID YOU FIRST LEARN THAT? 13 A I DO NOT REMEMBER. I DO NOT 14 RECALL THE TIME FRAME. 15 Q NOW, MR. FARMER, IS IT YOUR 16 RECOLLECTION NOW, HAVING READ 17 YOUR PRIOR TESTIMONY AND THIS 18 EXHIBIT, THAT, IN FACT, YOU WERE 19 TOLD IN THIS TIME FRAME WHEN 20 MONSANTO WITHDREW THESE PRODUCTS 2 1 FROM THE MARKET THAT THE REASON 22 MONSANTO WAS WITHDRAWING THEM 2 3 FROM THE MARKET IS THAT A MAJOR 24 INGREDIENT OF THESE PRODUCTS WAS 2 5 PC B OR POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYL 2 6 AND PCB'S WERE FOUND TO HAVE 27 PERSISTED IN THE ENVIRONMENT WITH 28 TRACES HAVING BEEN FOUND IN FISH, HARTOLDMON0043741 3680 1 BIRDS, BODY FATS, ET CETERA. IS 2 THAT YOUR RECOLLECTION? 3 A MY RECOLLECTION AS PREVIOUSLY 4 STATED WAS I DIDN'T KNOW WHY THEY 5 WITHDREW IT UNTIL THIS MEMO CAME 6 OUT . 7 I DID NOT REMEMBER THE TIME 8 FRAME. 9 I KNEW THEY HAD WITHDRAWN IT. 10 THEN WE GOT THIS INFORMATION. 11 SO I DIDN'T REMEMBER THE TIME 12 FRAME. 13 Q SO AT THE TIME THIS MEMO OF 14 JANUARY 17, 1972 CAME OUT, THAT 15 IS WHEN YOU LEARNED THAT THE 16 REASON THAT MONSANTO WAS 17 WITHDRAWING THESE PRODUCTS WAS 18 BECAUSE OF ENVIRONMENTAL 19 PERSISTENCE; IS THAT CORRECT? 2 0 A I'M NOT SURE THAT IS WHAT IT SAYS 21 NOW. IT SAYS IT TENDS TO BE. 22 THAT WASN'T REAL CLEAR AT THE 2 3 TIME THAT IT WAS GOING TO BE A 24 PROBLEM. 25 Q AFTER RECEIVING THIS MEMO DID YOU 26 HAVE ANY FURTHER INVOLVEMENT IN 27 THIS ISSUE OF THE MONSANTO 28 LUBRICANTS AND THEIR USE IN THE HARTOLDMONOQ43742 3 68 1 1 TEXAS EASTERN SYSTEM? 2 A NO, I DIDN'T. 3 Q TAKING A LOOK HERE AT THIS TEXAS 4 EASTERN MEMO, MR. FARMER, AND 5 THIS IS EXHIBIT 594, IT SHOWS 6 THAT YOU WERE, IN FACT, IN 7 ATTENDANCE AT THIS MEETING; IS 8 THAT CORRECT? 9 A IT WOULD APPEAR SO, YES. 10 Q DO YOU RECALL BEING PRESENT AT 11 THAT MEETING? 12 A NO, I DON'T. 13 Q DO YOU HAVE ANY REASON TOBELIEVE 14 THAT THIS MEMO IS IN ERROR TO THE 15 EXTENT THAT IT SHOWS THAT YOU 16 WERE IN ATTENDANCE? 17 A * NO, I DON'T. 18 Q AS A CHEMICALENGINEER WITH TEXAS 19 EASTERN, WERE YOU CALLED ON AT 2 0 ALL FROM 1972 TO 1981 TO OFFER 2 1 ANY INPUT INTO THE ISSUE OF PCB'S 22 IN THE COMPRESSOR LUBRICANTS THAT 2 3 WERE BEING USED AT CERTAIN 24 STATIONS? 2 5 A I DON'T RECALL A TIME FRAME. 2 6 BUT AT ONE STAGE WE WERE ASKED TO 27 LOOK AT POTENTIAL METHODS TO 2 8 REMOVE ANY PCB'S OR SYNTHETIC HARTOLDMON0043743 3 682 1 LUBRICANTS FROM OUR SYSTEM. 2 THE COURT: EXCUSE ME, MR. ZIMMER, ABOUT HOW 3 MUCH LONGER IN TERMS OF PAGES OR TIME? 4 MR. ZIMMER: WE BETTER BREAK. 5 THE COURT: WE WILL TAKE THE AFTERNOON BREAK 6 NOW, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. 7 REMEMBER THAT TOMORROW THE NOON HOUR WILL 8 BE EXTENDED SO WE WILL BE IN RECESS FROM 12 TO 2:00. 9 I WILL REMIND YOU, AGAIN, NOT TO THINK 10 ABOUT THE CASE, FORM ANY IMPRESSION OR SAY ANYTHING 11 TO ANY OTHER PERSON ABOUT ANYTHING HAVING TO DO WITH 12 IT . 13 HAVE A NICE EVENING. 14 WE WILL RESUME TOMORROW MORNING AT 9:30. 15 16 (AT 4:00 P.M., THE PROCEEDINGS WERE ADJOURNED 17 UNTIL TUESDAY, DECEMBER 21, 1993 AT 9:30 A.M.) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 HARTOLDMON0043744 1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE DF CALIFORNIA 2 FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES 3 DEPARTMENT NO. 31 HON. G. KEITH WISOT, JUDGE 4 5 TRANSWESTERN PIPELINE COMPANY, A DELAWARE CORPORATION, S PLAINTIFF- RESPONDENT, 7I VS . 3 MONSANTO COMPANY AND DOES 1 9 THROUGH 200, INCLUSIVE, 1 0 DEFENDANTS- APPELLANTS. 11 ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) NO. BC 0 2 S 9 5 9 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 12 STATE OF CALIFORNIA 13 COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES ) ) SS , ) 14 15 I, DAVID ALAN SALYER, OFFICIAL REPORTER OF THE 16 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, FOR THE 17 COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES, DO HEREBY CERTIFY THAT THE 18 FOREGOING PAGES, 3,476 THROUGH 3,682, INCLUSIVE, 19 COMPRISE A TRUE AND CORRECT TRANSCRIPT OF THE 20 PROCEEDINGS HELD IN THE ABOVE-ENTITLED MATTER, AS 2 1 DESIGNATED BY COUNSEL TO BE INCLUDED IN THE 22 TRANSCRIPT ON APPEAL, REPORTED BY ME ON December 20, 23 19 9 3. 24 . DATED THIS _________DAY OF APRIL, 1994. 25 26 _______________________ . CSR 3 4410 2 7 OFFICIAL REPORTER 23 HARTOLDMON0043745