Document 4Q69GMkJ5mwwRMDYxLmOja0Lj

BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 1 1 CAUSE NO. 2005-52097 2 BILLIE ONEY, INDIVIDUALLY AND AS REPRESENTATIVE OF THE 3 HEIRS AND ESTATE OF FLOYD ONEY; VICKI NEW, 4 INDIVIDUALLY; AND JANET SVRCEK, INDIVIDUALLY, 5 PLAINTIFFS 6 VS . 7 8 ALCOA, INC., ET AL, 9 DEFENDANTS ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) OF HARRIS COUNTY, TEXAS ) ) ) ) ) 11TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 10 TRANSFERRED FROM 11 CAUSE NO. 05-CV-147 12 FLOYD ONEY AND ) IN THE COUNTY COURT 13 BILLIE ONEY, ) 14 PLAINTIFFS ) ) 15 VS . ) ) AT LAW NO. 1 OF 16 ABLE SUPPLY CO., ET AL, 17 DEFENDANTS ) ) ) ) ) CALHOUN COUNTY, TEXAS 18 19 k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k -k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k-k'k 20 ORAL DEPOSITION OF BRUCE ALLEN LARSON 21 VOLUME 1 OF 1 22 DECEMBER 18, 2006 23 -k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k'k-k'k 24 25 ORAL DEPOSITION OF BRUCE ALLEN LARSON, produced as a WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005065 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 2 1 witness duly sworn by me at the instance of the Plaintiffs, 2 Billie Oney, Individually and as Representative of the Heirs 3 and Estate of Floyd Oney; Vicki New, Individually; and Janet 4 Svrcek, Individually, taken in the above styled and numbered 5 cause on the 18th day of December, 2006, from 9:43 a.m. to 4:57 6 p.m., before Misty Fondren Clements, Certified Shorthand 7 Reporter in and for the State of Texas, at the Law Offices of 8 DeHay & Elliston, 36 South Charles Street, Suite 1300, 9 Baltimore, Maryland 21201, pursuant to the Texas Rules of Civil 10 Procedure (and the provisions stated on the record or attached 11 herein). 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005066 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 3 1 APPEARANCES 2 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 4 Mr. Timothy R. Cappolino CAPPOLINO, DODD & KREBS 5 312 South Houston Avenue Cameron, Texas 76520 6 Ph: (254) 697-4965 Fax: (254) 697-4969 E-mail: tim@doddfirm.com; christian@industrialcancer.com 7 8 FOR THE DEFENDANT, EXXON-MOBIL CORPORATION: 9 Mr. Christopher Manning DEHAY & ELLISTON, L.L.P. 10 3500 Bank of America Plaza 901 Main Street 11 Dallas, Texas 75202 Ph: (214) 210-2400 Fax: (214) 210-2500 12 E-mail: cmanning@dehay.com; depos@dehay.com 13 FOR THE DEFENDANTS, GREENE TWEED AND GARLOCK SEALING 14 TECHNOLOGIES, INC.: 15 Mr. John LaBoon SEGAL, MCCAMBRIDGE, SINGER & MAHONEY, LTD. 16 100 Congress Avenue, Suite 700 Austin, Texas 78701 17 Ph: (512) 476-7834 Fax: (512) 476-7832 E-mail: jlaboon@smsm.com 18 19 FOR THE DEFENDANT, CROWN CENTRAL: 20 Mr. Walter Lynch BAKER BOTTS, L.L.P. 21 One Shell Plaza 910 Louisiana 22 Houston, Texas 77002-4995 Ph: (713) 229-2020 Fax: (713) 229-7720 23 E-mail: walter.lynch@bakerbotts.com 24 25 WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005067 BRUCE LARSON 1 FOR THE DEFENDANT, ALCOA, INC.: 2 Ms. L. Amy Green HUNTON & WILLIAMS, L.L.P. 3 Energy Plaza, 30th Floor 1601 Bryan Street 4 Dallas, Texas 75201-3402 Ph: (214) 979-3000 Fax: (214) 880-0011 5 E-mail: agreen@hunton.com 6 FOR THE DEFENDANT, GOULDS PUMPS, INC.: 7 Ms. Laura M. Higgs 8 DEHAY & ELLISTON 36 South Charles Street 9 Suite 1300 Baltimore, Maryland 21201 10 Ph: (410) 783-7225 Fax: (410) 783-7221 E-mail: lhiggs@dehay.com; depos@dehay.com 11 12 FOR THE DEFENDANT, A.W. CHESTERTON COMPANY: 13 Mr. Keith Truffer ROYSTON, MUELLER, MCLEAN & REID, L.L.P. 14 102 West Pennsylvania Avenue Suite 600 15 Towson, Maryland 21204-4575 Ph: (410) 823-1800 Fax: (410) 828-7859 16 E-mail: ktruffer@rmmr.com 17 FOR THE DEFENDANT, OWENS-ILLINOIS: 18 Mr. John Cosmich 19 COSMICH & SIMMONS, P.L.L.C. 733 North State Street 20 Post Office Box 22626 (39225-2626) Jackson, Mississippi 39202 21 Ph: (601) 863-2100 Fax: (601) 863-0078 E-mail: cos@cs-law.com 22 23 24 25 WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 12/18/06 Page 4 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005068 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 FOR THE DEFENDANT, FLUOR ENTERPRISES, INC.: Page 5 2 Mr. J. Keith Stanley (Via Teleconference) ADAMS & BOSWELL, P.C. 3 1010 Lamar, Suite 1800 Houston, Texas 77002 4 Ph: (409) 838-6767 Fax: (409) 838-6950 E-mail: keithstanley@adamsboswell.com 5 6 FOR THE DEFENDANTS, CLEAVER-BROOKS, INC. AND HERCULES CHEMICAL COMPANY, INC.: 7 Mr. Xaverie L. Picciurro (Via Teleconference) 8 WHITE & SHAVER, P.C. 11200 Westheimer, Suite 200 9 Houston, Texas 77042 Ph: (713) 953-0860 Fax: (713) 953-0917 10 E-mail: xpicciurro@whiteshaverlaw.com 11 FOR THE DEFENDANT, AMERICAN STANDARD, INC.: 12 Mr. Stephen K. Guidry (Via Teleconference) 13 GERMER GERTZ, L.L.C. 550 Fannin 14 Suite 500 Beaumont, Texas 77701 15 Ph: (409) 654-6700 Fax: (409) 835-2115 E-mail: skguidry@germer.com 16 17 FOR THE DEFENDANTS, BUFFALO PUMPS, INC.; DANA CORPORATION; AND CERTAINTEED CORPORATION: 18 Ms. Lisa Massey (Via Teleconference) 19 POWERS & FROST, L.L.P. 2400 One Houston Center 20 1221 McKinney St. Houston, Texas 77010 21 Ph: (713) 767-1555 Fax: (713) 767-1799 E-mail: lmassey@powersfrost.com 22 23 24 25 WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005069 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 FOR THE DEFENDANT, LONGHORN GASKET & SUPPLY: Page 6 2 Mr. Marcus A. Carroll (Via Teleconference) MARCUS A. CARROLL, P.C. 3 909 ESE Loop 323 Suite 215 4 Tyler, Texas 75701 Ph: (903) 561-9700 Fax: (903) 561-9715 5 E-mail: macarroll@cox-internet.com 6 FOR THE DEFENDANTS, HOBART BROTHERS, INC.; LINCOLN ELECTRIC 7 COMPANY; AND THE BOC GROUP, INC.: 8 Ms. Courtney P. Watson (Via Teleconference) STRONG, PIPKIN, BISSELL & LEDYARD, L.L.P. 9 1301 McKinney Street Suite 2100 10 Houston, Texas 77010 E-mail: cwatson@strongpipkin.com 11 Ph: (713) 210-5014 Fax: (713) 651-1920 E-mail: cwatson@strongpipkin.com 12 13 FOR THE DEFENDANT, JOHN CRANE: 14 Mr. Andrew Szocka (Via Teleconference) O'CONNELL, TIVIN, MILLER & BURNS, L.L.C. 15 645 Tollgate Road Suite 220 16 Elgin, Illinois 60123 Ph: (847) 741-4603 Fax: (847) 741-4692 17 E-mail: aszocka@djoalaw.com 18 FOR THE DEFENDANT, CRANE CO.: 19 Ms. Lauren A. Syler (Via Teleconference) 20 KIRKPATRICK & LOCKHART, NICHOLSON, GRAHAM, L.L.P. 2828 North Harwood Street 21 Suite 1800 Dallas, Texas 75201 22 Ph: (214) 939-4998 Fax: (214) 939-4949 E-mail: lsyler@king.com 23 24 25 WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005070 BRUCE LARSON 1 FOR THE DEFENDANT, ZURN INDUSTRIES: 2 Mr. Jeremy Aleman (Via Teleconference) FORMAN, PERRY, WATKINS, KRUTZ & TARDY, L.L.P. 3 2001 Bryan Street Suite 1300 4 Dallas, Texas 75201-3008 Ph: (214) 905-2924 Fax: (214) 905-3976 5 E-mail: alemanjd@fpwk.com 6 FOR THE DEFENDANT, GEORGIA-PACIFIC CORPORATION: 7 Ms. Kimberly Steele (Via Teleconference) 8 SEDGWICK, DETERT, MORAN & ARNOLD, L.L.P. 1717 Main Street 9 Suite 5400 Dallas, Texas 75201 10 Ph: (469) 227-8200 Fax: (469) 227-8004 E-mail: kimberly.steele@sdma.com 11 12 FOR THE DEFENDANT, GUARD-LINE, INC.: 13 Mr. Matthew Lott (Via Teleconference) DOGAN & WILKINSON, P.L.L.C. 14 734 Delmas Avenue Pascagoula, Mississippi 39567 15 Ph: (228) 762-2272 Fax: (228) 762-3223 E-mail: mlott@doganwilkinson.com 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 12/18/06 Page 7 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005071 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 8 1 INDEX 2 PAGE 3 Appearances.......................................................................................................................................... 3 4 Stipulations..................................................................................................................................... 12 5 BRUCE ALLEN LARSON 6 Examination by Mr. Cappolino........................................................................... 13 7 Examination by Mr. LaBoon................................................................................. 259 8 Examination by Mr. Lynch...................................................................................262 9 Examination by Mr. Cosmich.............................................................................267 10 Examination by Ms. Massey................................................................................275 11 Examination by Ms. Watson................................................................................276 12 Examination by Mr. Aleman................................................................................277 13 Examination by Mr. Manning.............................................................................278 14 Further Examination by Mr.Cappolino..................................................... 279 15 Further Examination by Mr. LaBoon..........................................................298 16 Further Examination by Mr.Cappolino..................................................... 299 17 18 Signature and Changes......................................................................................................... 300 19 Reporter's Certificate...................................................................................................... 302 20 TRCP Certificate........................................................................................................................ 306 21 EXHIBITS 22 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 23 1 Notice of Deposition...............................................................................................13 24 2 Exxon Skills Training Workbook, Identify Gaskets and 25 Their Use, Module 5.15, Dated February 1973............................... 13 WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005072 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 9 1 EXHIBITS (Continued) 23 3 4 4 Article from AIHAJ Entitled, "The History of OSHA's Asbestos Rulemakings..." by Martonik, et al...............................13 General and Special Laws of The State of Texas on Workmen's Compensation - Occupational Diseases, 1947 55 6 6 7 7 8 Article from Houston Chronicle, "Work Exposure Blamed for 20% Cancer Deaths"......................................................................................... 13 Report on Summary of Tee Plant Industrial Hygiene Problems, Standard Oil Co., 1949............................................................... 13 Insulation Materials Used in 1965 by Humble Oil & Refining Company - Baytown Refinery....................................................... 13 98 10 "Dust-Producing Operations in the Production of Petroleum Products and Associated Activities," by Roy Bonsib, July 1937............................................................................................................................... 13 11 9 Article Entitled "Asbestosis" by A.J. Lanza.................................13 12 10 Industrial Hygiene Survey of the Baton Rouge Refinery, Louisiana Division, ESSO Standard Oil Company, 13 February-Apr il, 1949.................................................................................................13 14 11 Letter from N.V. Hendricks to F.S. Venable dated 12-14-51 with Attached Information on Asbestos Dust....13 15 12 Letter from W.T. Foster to F.S. Venable dated 16 10-29-51.................................................................................................................................. 13 17 13 Production Department Safety Manual of Humble Oil & Refining Company, May 1953................................................................................13 18 14 Letter from Union Asbestos & Rubber Company to ESSO 19 Standard Oil Company RegardingUnibestosInsulation.... 13 20 15 Methods and Materials for Insulation of Steam Traced Lines, ESSO Standard Oil Company, Baton Rouge 21 Refinery.................................................................................................................................. 13 22 16 Insulation Study, ESSO Standard Oil Company, Baton Rouge Refinery................................................................................................................. 13 23 17 Article from Esso News Entitled "Special Insulation 24 Goes on Pipes at Aldox Unit".......................................................................... 13 25 18 List of Potentially Hazardous Materials, June 6, 1961, and Other Documents................................................................................................... 13 WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005073 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 10 1 EXHIBITS (Continued) 2 19 Memorandum to Neill K. Weaver from Fred Venable dated 5-13-64................................................................................................................................... 13 3 20 Letter from McCarty-Branton to Humble Oil Refining 4 dated 11-23-64................................................................................................................. 13 5 21 Summary of the Conference on "Biological Effects of Asbestos," Medical Research Division of ESSO dated 6 October 19-21, 1964................................................................................................... 13 7 22 Letter from R.S. Brief to N.V. Hendricks Regarding Asbestos Content of Insulating Materials dated 8 5-10-66..................................................................................................................................... 13 9 23 Occupational Health Regulations, Maximum Permissible Concentrations of Atmospheric Contaminants in Places of 10 Employment Effective July 1, 1958............................................................ 13 11 24 Occupational Safety and Health Standards, Standard for Exposure to Asbestos Dust dated 1972....................................................13 12 25 Handwritten Audit of Operations With Respect to Use of 13 Asbestos, Dated 12-28-71..................................................................................... 13 14 26 Memorandum to "Ray" from SCP dated 1-7-72....................................... 13 15 27 Memorandum to J.W. Hammond from F.S. Venable dated 3-9-72........................................................................................................................................13 16 28 Memorandum to Felton and Brock from F.S. Venable dated 17 7-20-72..................................................................................................................................... 13 18 29 Memorandum to A.C. Worsley from F.S. Venable dated 7-20-72..................................................................................................................................... 13 19 30 Letter to Mr. Jones from F.S. Venable Regarding 20 Asbestos Exposures...................................................................................................... 13 21 31 Union Carbide Corp. Report of Call on Exxon, Houston, Texas dated 3-4-74...................................................................................................... 13 22 32 Metals Division - Customer Call Report, Customer Exxon, 23 Houston, Texas Regarding Zinc-rich Coatings dated 10-19-76................................................................................................................. 13 24 33 NIOSH Health Hazard Evaluation Report on ExxonCorp. 25 Bayway Refinery and Chemical Plant, Linden, NJdated September 1986................................................................................................................. 13 WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005074 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 11 1 EXHIBITS (Continued) 2 34 Summary of Safe Practices for Contractors at Baton Rouge Refinery, ESSO Standard Oil Company, Louisiana 3 Division.................................................................................................................................13 4 35 Cover Letter dated 8-17-06 to Mr. Larson from Kyle Kneese, Re: Transmittal of Legal Documents..................................13 5 36 Cover Letter dated 12-8-06 to Mr. Larson from Meredith 6 Spratt, Re: Transmittal of Deposition Transcripts.............. 13 7 37 Oral Deposition of Jesse Stovall taken in the Altimore Case on 2-27-04............................................................................................................. 55 38 Oral Deposition of Jesse Franklin Stovall taken in the 9 Marshall and Wilkerson Cases on 6-27-96.......................................... 55 10 39 Oral Deposition of Jesse Franklin Stovall taken in the Stovall Case on 6-2-94......................................................................................... 55 11 40 Defendant Exxon Mobil Corporation's Objections to 12 Plaintiff's Subpoena Duces Tecum...........................................................299 13 41 Report Entitled "State-of-the-Art Knowledge - Asbestos Exposure in Petrochemical Plants" by William Dyson....299 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005075 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 12 1 STIPULATIONS 2 The parties in the above entitled and numbered cause 3 agree that the Deposition shall be taken pursuant to the Texas 4 Rules of Civil Procedure. 5 The parties agree that all objections as to the form 6 of the question and the responsiveness of the answer are to be 7 made at the time of the taking of said deposition; but that all 8 other objections are reserved and may be made at the time this 9 deposition, or any part thereof, is offered on the trial. 10 The parties further agree when said deposition has 11 been transcribed, it will be forwarded to the witness or 12 attorney for the witness for examination, notarization and 13 signature and is to be returned to the reporter. If the 14 deposition is not returned to the reporter, an unsigned copy 15 can be used at the time of trial with the same force and effect 16 as though the original had been read and signed. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005076 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 13 1 (Exhibit Nos. 1 through 36 marked.) 2 BRUCE ALLEN LARSON, 3 having been first duly sworn, testified as follows: 4 EXAMINATION 5 BY MR. CAPPOLINO: 6 Q. Would you state your name for the record, please, 7 sir? 8 A. My name is Bruce Allen, A-L-L-E-N, Larson, 9 L-A-R-S-O-N. 10 Q. Mr. Larson, my name is Tim Cappolino. I represent 11 the plaintiffs in this case, Billie Oney, Individually, and as 12 Representative of the Heirs and Estate of Floyd Oney, Vicki New 13 and Janet Svrcek, and you understand that Exxon is one of the 14 defendants in this case? 15 A. I do. 16 Q. You've had your deposition taken before on previous 17 occasions; have you not? 18 A. Yes, I have. 19 Q. You understand the court reporter has sworn you to 20 tell the truth, the same as if you were sitting in front of the 21 judge and the jury? 22 A. I do. 23 Q. And that in the event that you tell a lie, that is 24 perjury and you can go to jail for that. Do you understand 25 that? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005077 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 14 1 MR. MANNING: Objection, form. 2 A. Yes . 3 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) About how many times have you 4 testified before in depositions involving asbestos cases? 5 A. I'd estimate somewhere between -- somewhere between 6 15 and 25. 7 Q. Yes, sir. Are you currently employed by Exxon? 8 A. No . 9 Q. Were you ever employed by Exxon? 10 A. Yes, at one time. 11 Q. And when were you employed by Exxon? 12 A. Now, when you say, "Exxon," are you talking about 13 Exxon only or Exxon and Mobil or -14 Q. Exxon and Mobil. 15 A. Okay. I began employment with Exxon in 1976 and 16 worked for Exxon as an entity for like three years, and then 17 from then until my retirement in 2000 I worked for Mobil. 18 Q. Okay. You're currently retired; are you not? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. Do you do any consulting work for Exxon or Mobil -21 A. I do . 22 Q. -- as of today? 23 A. I do. 24 Q. One thing, Mr. Larson, I know you've taken 25 depositions and appeared in trial. Let me finish my question WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005078 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 15 1 before you answer so the court reporter can take that down. 2 A. Sure . 3 Q. Is that fair? 4 A. Sure . 5 Q. Okay. Do you provide consulting work for Exxon or 6 Mobil today? 7 A. I do. 8 Q. What type of work do you do? 9 A. It's essentially providing expert testimony in acting 10 as a corporate representative. 11 Q. So you're both -- have been designated as an expert 12 by Exxon-Mobil and also you were an employee of Exxon-Mobil 13 appearing as a corporate rep; is that correct? 14 A. I believe so. 15 Q. Has that always been the situation where you've 16 testified in cases on behalf of Exxon or Mobil? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. Have you discussed this case, this Oney case, with 19 counsel for Exxon and Mobil before today? 20 A. Yes . 21 Q. What did you discuss? 22 A. Just generally what my role was going to be in terms 23 of providing testimony on Exxon and Mobil's working practices. 24 procedures and policy regarding employee protection from 25 asbestos and asbestos-containing materials. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005079 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 16 1 Q. How many times did you meet with counsel for 2 Exxon-Mobil before today to discuss this case? 3 A. Once . 4 Q. And when was that, sir? 5 A. It was last night. 6 Q. How long did y'all meet? 7 A. We had dinner, so it was probably about an hour and a 8 half . 9 Q. And who did you meet with? 10 A. Chris Manning. 11 Q. Did Mr. Manning show you any documents to help you 12 prepare for this deposition? 13 A. I -- well, I have materials -- well, the deposition 14 testimony of -- but nothing -- nothing other than what 15 basically you see in that box. 16 Q. Yes, sir. 17 Well, Mr. Larson, I had issued a subpoena duces 18 tecum for you to provide documents responsive to some requests. 19 Do you recall receiving that? 20 A. Yes . 21 Q. And did you already have documents that you had in 22 this box that you've given me today, before you met 23 Mr. Manning, that were responsive to that request? 24 A. Yes . 25 Q. Did Mr. Manning, when he met with you last night. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005080 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 17 1 give you any other documents that you didn't already have to 2 review? 3 A. No. 4 Q. And the subpoena duces tecum was forwarded to you by 5 the lawyers for Exxon-Mobil; is that correct? 6 A. I believe it was from Chris Manning's office. 7 Q. I noticed -- and, again, I'm going to get to the 8 duces tecum. I noticed in the box of documents that you have 9 that you' ve got a number of depositions? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. But I do notice in the box that you have that you 12 don't have certain depositions, and let me name some of them 13 for you. You don't have any depositions of a gentleman by the 14 name of Jesse Franklin Stovall, do you? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Do you know who that individual was? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Do you know whether or not he testified in the same 19 case you testified in, in Galveston County, I believe. the 20 Altimore case? 21 A. I don't know if he did or not. 22 Q. Have you ever heard of that name before? 23 A. It's vaguely familiar. 24 Q. Has any lawyer for Exxon-Mobil ever provided you a 25 copy of any of the depositions of Mr. Stovall? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005081 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. No . Page 18 2 Q. Were you ever made aware that Mr. Stovall worked at 3 the Baytown refinery, the Exxon Baytown refinery? 4 A. No. 5 Q. That he worked there for about 35 years? 6 A. I don't know that. 7 Q. Did he work there when Mr. Oney worked there? 8 A. I don't know that. 9 Q. So you don't know any of what -- any of his testimony 10 regarding the Baytown refinery? 11 A. No. 12 Q. I did notice in your box of documents that you've 13 provided me today you had some deposition testimony of a 14 gentleman by the name of Randy Trembly; is that correct? 15 A. Yes . 16 Q. When were you provided with his deposition? 17 A. I think it was a week or so ago. 18 Q. Did you read it? 19 A. Yes . 20 Q. And you understand he was a corporate representative 21 for Crown Central Petroleum? 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. My understanding is, from your past deposition and 24 trial testimony, you used to work for OSHA; is that correct? 25 A. Correct. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005082 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 Q. And when did you work for OSHA? Page 19 2 A. From 1973 to 1976. 3 Q. And what did you do for OSHA in that time period? 4 A. I was a compliance officer in their Houston area 5 office and I specialized in industrial hygiene. 6 Q. Did you ever go out and do OSHA inspections during 7 that period of time? 8 A. Yes . 9 Q. Did any of those inspections involve compliance with 10 any asbestos regulations? 11 A. Some did. I think my estimate is probably about 15 12 out of about 300. 13 Q. Yes, sir. How many OSHA inspectors did they have 14 from the period of 1973 through 1976 in that area where you 15 worked? 16 A. It changed. I think initially when I joined in '73 17 they had approximately 8, and by 1976 that had risen to 18 approximately 14. 19 Q. What area did the OSHA inspectors that you worked 20 with cover at that time? 21 A. Initially, they covered about 25 percent of the 22 state. It ranged from Houston, south to Corpus Christi, west 23 to Austin, and east to Beaumont-Port Arthur. By '76, that area 24 had been reduced because they'd opened offices in Corpus 25 Christi. Austin and Beaumont-Port Arthur. So it was probably WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005083 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 half the area by the time I left. Page 20 2 Q. In the time from '73 through '76 did the OSHA 3 inspectors that you worked with cover the Pasadena refineries. 4 Pasadena , Texas? 5 A. Geographically, yes. 6 Q. All right. And, of course, they covered the Exxon 7 Baytown refinery; is that correct? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. Did you ever go to the Crown Central Petroleum 10 refinery to do any type of OSHA inspections? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Do you know who in your office, if you could identify 13 by name. would have been the inspector that would have gone to 14 Crown Central to inspect those premises? 15 A. I really don't know that. 16 Q. Have you seen any documents showing any type of OSHA 17 inspections from Crown during that period of time? 18 A. I think in one of the depositions, either 19 Mr. Trembly's or Mr. Bradley, it referred to an OSHA 20 inspection. 21 Q. Do you recall the name of the -- I believe it was a 22 woman -- the name of the woman who was the inspector? 23 A. I don't recall that. I may have read that. but I 24 don't recall who it was. 25 Q. And I think I have that document here and I' 11 show WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005084 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 it to you later. Page 21 2 Did you read all of Mr. Trembly's deposition? 3 A. I read two. 4 Q. Do you think he was shy on the details? 5 A. I think as a person that didn't really have a health 6 and safety background, he probably wasn't aware of some of the 7 more specifics as it related to the health and safety 8 practices. That was my impression. 9 Q. What do you mean didn't have the health and safety 10 background? 11 A. I thought he was more from the business area. 12 administration. 13 Q. Do you know why Crown Central would put him up as a 14 corporate representative to talk about safety issues if he 15 didn't have a health and safety background? 16 MR. LYNCH: Objection, form. 17 A. I have no opinion on that. 18 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) You were also -- in that box that 19 you've brought to me today, you had a deposition of Mr. Howard 20 Bradley from Crown Central, didn't you? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. When did you receive that deposition? 23 A. That would have been the same time that I received 24 Mr. Trembly's. I believe that was about a week ago. 25 Q. Do you know why you received depositions of Crown WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005085 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 representatives ? Page 22 2 A. I -- I don't know specifically why. I -- it's 3 related to the case, I guess. It's one of the areas that 4 Mr. Oney worked for a good portion of his working career where 5 potentially he could have had asbestos exposure so I assume 6 that's the reason I was asked to review those. 7 Q. You said that at Crown he could have potentially had 8 asbestos exposure. What do you mean by that? 9 A. I suppose that the evidence shows that, you know. 10 there was insulation at the refinery, gaskets, that type of 11 thing, that could very well have contained asbestos. 12 Q. Do you know what type of materials or products he 13 could have been exposed to that had asbestos at Crown? 14 A. Again, it could have been insulation, gaskets. You 15 know, there's quite a few different materials potentially in 16 any refinery that could have contained asbestos back in that 17 period. 18 Q. Is it also your belief and your testimony that he 19 could have been exposed to asbestos-containing materials, that 20 is, Mr. Oney, at the Exxon refinery in Baytown when he worked 21 there? 22 A. When he was -- when -- you say potentially? 23 Q. Or let me ask it another way. 24 A. Okay. 25 Q. Is it your opinion that he was exposed to WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005086 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 23 1 asbestos-containing materials at the Exxon refinery in Baytown 2 when he worked there on two occasions in the '60s. 3 A. Based on the programs that were in place at that 4 time, I would say no. 5 Q. What programs were in place at that time at the 6 Baytown refinery with regard to asbestos exposure and reducing 7 asbestos exposures to workers and contract employees? 8 A. I think you can see from the information provided by 9 James Hammond in various documents that I've included and, of 10 course, the fact that he refers to the work that began actually 11 back in the 1930s within Exxon that there were formal programs 12 in place to basically eliminate potential exposure. 13 Q. Do you know how long a period of time Mr. Hammond 14 spent at the Baytown refinery? 15 A. I don't know exactly, but I know he spent a good 16 portionof his time at that facility because he was located in 17 Houston, and Baytown was the largest refinery in Humble's 18 refining network. I would estimate he probably spent probably 19 about 25 percent of his time at that refinery. 20 Q. How long would that be? 21 A. Well, it would be between 1947 and 1978 when he 22 retired. 23 Q. Okay. So can you calculate how many years that would 24 be he spent at the Baytown refinery? 25 A. Well, let's see, let's do the math here. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005087 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 Approximately 31 years. Page 24 2 Q. He spent 31 years at the Baytown refinery? 3 A. Not full time. 4 Q. Well, how long? What do you mean, full time? Part 5 time ? 6 A. Well, as I said, possibly up to 25 percent of his 7 time he would have spent at the refinery. 8 Q. All right. How long did you spend at the Baytown 9 refinery ? 10 A. I was at Baytown initially when I joined Exxon for a 11 three-week period for orientation, and I returned to that 12 refinery , as well as several other Exxon refineries. 13 approximately once a month for a two-day period. 14 Q. All right. So you spent three weeks there initially. 15 When was that? 16 A. That would have been in 1976. 17 Q. All right. And then you spent -- you said each month 18 you went to the Baytown refinery? 19 A. Right. We'd have meetings there. 20 Q. What kind of meetings would you have there? 21 A. Industrial hygiene. 22 Q. In what period of time did that span when you did 23 these meetings at the Baytown refinery? 24 A. It would have been from '76 to the end of ' 18. 25 Q. As a industrial hygienist and as a corporate WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005088 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 25 1 representative for Exxon, wouldn't you like to have testimony 2 from an employee, a supervisor or supervisors at the Baytown 3 refinery plant for 35 years from approximately 1947 through the 4 '80s to see what he said about the programs, asbestos programs 5 that were in place at the refinery? 6 MR. MANNING: Objection, form. 7 A. I would see that as being helpful. 8 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) But you weren't provided with 9 that information from Mr. Stovall? 10 A. No . 11 Q. Would you like to see it? 12 A. Sure . 13 Q. Okay. And. we'll go over some of that testimony a 14 little bit later. I want to get back to Mr. Bradley. 15 Were you ever provided another copy, another 16 deposition from Mr. Bradley that he gave in his asbestos 17 lawsuit case? 18 A. No. 19 Q. All right. Do you know whether that even existed? 20 A. No. 21 Q. I'm going to show you what the reporter has marked as 22 Larson Exhibit No. 1, Mr. Larson, hand this to you, sir, ask if 23 you can identify that for the record. 24 A. It's, I guess, a deposition notice for this 25 deposition. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005089 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 26 1 Q. Is that the same and if you can -- you can look 2 through it if you need to. Is that the same notice of your 3 deposition with documents for you to produce if you had them in 4 your actual or constructive possession, the same one you 5 received before? 6 A. Yes. I believe it is. 7 Q. Did you have an opportunity to go through that 8 exhibit to see if you had any documents responsive? 9 A. Yes . 10 Q. And the documents that you have said were responsive. 11 have you provided them to me in this white box? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. All right. In that white box, are there any type of 14 internal memos from Exxon during the relevant time period that 15 Mr. Oney worked there that talked about asbestos control 16 measures at the Baytown refinery? 17 A. There's a memo from James Hammond concerning the 18 asbestos program that was in effect at the time he would have 19 been working at Baytown. 20 Q. Okay. Do you have any documents that you provided to 21 me that show whether or not any air sampling was done for 22 asbestos dust at the Baytown refinery in the 1960s? 23 A. Again, that's reflected in the Hammond memo. 24 Q. Okay. What does it -- what does he talk about -- and 25 we can pull that out later. What does he talk about as far as WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005090 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 27 1 whether or not any air sampling was done for asbestos at the 2 Baytown refinery in the '60s? 3 A. He said that a baseline had been established even 4 prior to the '60s and that follow-up routine air sampling was 5 conducted and that was part of the -- part of the program. 6 Q. When you were with OSHA, did you ever go to other 7 plants in the area to see if they were doing any air sampling 8 for asbestos exposure? 9 A. I -- I would say yes. 10 Q. All right. And when would this air sampling -- when 11 should it have started in the refineries that covered your 12 geographical area? When should that have started based on the 13 regulations in the OSHA regulations? 14 A. That would have been 19 -- late 1971 and early 15 1972 -- well, actually, it would have been mid 1972. 16 Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not Exxon ever had any 17 type of documents with regard to skill training that they 18 provided to other refineries or other companies, say, in the 19 Texas Gulf Coast area? 20 MR. MANNING: Objection, form. 21 A. I don't know that for a fact, but I wouldn't be 22 surprised if they did. 23 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) I'm going to show you what the 24 reporter has marked as Larson Exhibit No. 2 and have you look 25 at that and ask you whether or not you've ever seen a copy of WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005091 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 that document before? Page 28 2 A. I don't believe so. 3 Q. And can you identify what that document is? 4 A. It's titled, "Identify Gaskets and Their Use." 5 Q. And it's called -- it says, "Workbook, Module 5.15, 6 Skills Training, Exxon"; is that correct? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. Does this appear to be a document that was prepared 9 by Exxon in February of 1973 as you see on the second page? 10 A. Yes . 11 Q. All right. Do you recall whether or not this 12 document was discussed in the Trembly or the Bradley 13 depositions that you reviewed from Crown? 14 A. I don't believe it was. 15 Q. Do you -- and, again, I got this from Crown. Do you 16 know why Crown would have a copy of this document in their 17 files ? 18 MR. LYNCH: Objection, form. 19 A. No. 20 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) On the second page, it's called. 21 "Identify Gaskets and Their Use," February of 1973. It says 22 it's prepared by E.R. Gould, G-O-U-L-D; is that correct? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. Do you know who Mr. Gould is? 25 A. No. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005092 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 Q. You've never heard of him? Page 29 2 A. No. 3 Q. If you go to the third page, this talks -- has a 4 table of contents and then it has a Roman numeral II, 5 "Workbook," and then it has certain sections under it, 6 A through G; and B through G talk about gaskets, compressed 7 asbestos gaskets, double-jacketed asbestos gaskets, 8 spiral-wound gaskets, metal-ring joint gaskets. Do you see 9 that? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Was Exxon still using asbestos gaskets in 1973 at the 12 Baytown refinery? 13 A. I would say where asbestos-free substitutes were not 14 available, they would be, yes. 15 Q. What asbestos-free substitutes were available for 16 gaskets at that time instead of having asbestos gaskets? 17 A. Well, for example, under "F," it's metal-ring joint 18 gaskets. I'd say any of -- any of these gaskets that don't 19 mention asbestos would have been asbestos free. 20 Q. All right. If you go further into this document - 21 and I just want to cover it real briefly here and let's just go 22 to, say. Page 11 of the document. This is called, "Segment 23 No. 2," and it says, "Compressed Asbestos Gaskets." Do you see 24 that? 25 A. Yes -- wait, let's see. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005093 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 Q. Page 11? Page 30 2 A. Page 11. Which item? 3 Q. You don't have what I have? 4 A. What -- oh, okay. Got you. That's the title. 5 Q. Yeah. And then it says, "Compressed asbestos is the 6 most widely used type of material in industry today." Do you 7 see that? 8 A. Yes . 9 Q. Do you agree with that or do you agree with that as 10 of that time ? 11 A. That was the period -- that was a transition period. 12 I believe. Asbestos-free gaskets were being developed, but 13 they hadn't been actually commercialized at that time, so I -- 14 I would agree with you. 15 Q. All right. Go to the second -- or that Page No. 12, 16 Segment No. 2 . 17 A. Okay. 18 Q. It says -- No. 4, it says, "The included charts were 19 giving information to assist in selection of compressed 20 asbestos gaskets." And then as you see under "A," there's a 21 service. it says, "Gas," then has a flange rating and a 22 temperature range. Do you know what that means? 23 A. I know what the temperature range is. I'm not 24 familiar with that flange rating. 25 Q. Okay. But then it has "Gasket Selection" by that and WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005094 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 31 1 it has -- appears to be either the names or model numbers of 2 certain gaskets. Do you see that? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. And what does it say? 5 A. I believe it says, "JM-60, RM-670 and Garlock-800" -6 or "900 IT 7 Q. Do you know what Garlock 900 asbestos gaskets were at 8 that time? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Do you know whether or not they were used at the 11 Baytown refinery in the 1960s? 12 A. I don't know, but I'm -- I'm certainly not going to 13 say they weren't. 14 Q. Do you know whether or not the Garlock 900 asbestos 15 gaskets were used at the Baytown refinery in the 1970s? 16 A. I don't know that. 17 Q. Do you know whether or not Exxon at any time in the 18 '60s, ' 70s at any of their plants or refineries ever used 19 Garlock gaskets, asbestos gaskets? 20 A. I'm sure that at some point they probably did, but I 21 don't know the exact time period. 22 Q. Do you know where they used them in the refineries? 23 A. Not specifically, no. 24 Q. And J.M., does that mean Johns-Manville? 25 A. I would assume so. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005095 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 32 1 Q. All right. If you go to the next page, Mr. Larson, 2 Segment No. 2, compressed gaskets? 3 A. Yes . 4 Q. Again, it has some information under there. 5 "Service ," "Flange Rating," "Temperature Range" and "Gasket 6 Selection." Do you see that? 7 A. Yes . 8 Q. And under "Gasket Selection," it has, "Compressed 9 asbestos equal to JM-60, RM-670, Garlock 900 and Bestolite." 10 Did I read that correctly? 11 A. Yes . 12 Q. Further down under "Gasket Selection," again, it 13 says, "Compressed asbestos, durable, equal to JM-70, RM-650, 14 Garlock 7021, RM-10," and it looks like "000"; correct? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. Do you know what Garlock 7021 is? 17 A. Not specifically, no. 18 Q. And do you know whether or not Garlock 7021 asbestos 19 gaskets was used at the Baytown refinery in the '60s, 20 specifically from '65 through '69? 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. As you go to Page -- it looks like Page -- I'm 23 sorry -- 18 and 19, does this document continue to talk about 24 asbestos gaskets and where they're used at Exxon? 25 A. Yes . WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005096 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 33 1 Q. And on Page -- sorry. Let me go to Page 17. Anc I'm 2 sorry for skipping around here. These look like questions that 3 are asked to employees or contractors to fill out. Do you see 4 that? It' s like a test? 5 MR. MANNING: Objection, form. 6 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Like Page 17, Segment No. 3, 7 double-jacketed asbestos gaskets, and it has -- it appears to 8 be some typewritten information where blanks are to be filled 9 in. Do you see that? 10 A. Yes, I see that. 11 Q. Do you know what that's for? 12 A. I -- I -- I'm not sure. It could be something where 13 people are being asked to respond, you know, a test or 14 whatever, but I -- I don't know for certain. 15 Q. As an industrial hygiene person there at Exxon or 16 Mobil back in the '70s, you never saw these documents? 17 A. I haven't seen this document, no. 18 Q. Is this a document you probably should have seen as 19 an industrial hygienist? 20 MR. MANNING: Objection, form. 21 A. I don't really think so. I don't see any reason to. 22 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) All right. 23 A. I mean, certainly it would be of interest, but I 24 don't see where it would be something that is essential. 25 Q. All right. Further on and going to Page 21, it talks WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005097 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 34 1 about spiral-wound gaskets. Were those asbestos-containing 2 gaskets at that time or do you know? 3 A. It appears they -- they refer to an asbestos paper 4 filler, so there might have been at least some asbestos. 5 Q. Okay. I'm through with that document, Mr. Larson. I 6 appreciate it. 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. I'm going to show you what the reporter has marked as 9 Exhibit No . 3, hand this to you. 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. This was also attached as an exhibit, I believe, to 12 either Mr. Bradley's depo or Mr. Trembly's depo. Can you 13 identify what that document is for the record? 14 A. The title is, "The History of OSHA's Asbestos 15 Rulemakings and Some Distinctive Approaches That They 16 Introduced for Regulating Occupational Exposure to Toxic 17 Substances If 18 Q. Mr. Larson, can you tell us who the author is? 19 A. The authors are John Martonik, Edith Nash and 20 Elizabeth Grossman. 21 Q. What publication was that in and what year or volume? 22 A. It was in the March and April edition of the American 23 Industrial Hygiene Association Journal and that was in 2001. 24 Q. Did you ever subscribe to that journal as an 25 industrial hygienist ? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005098 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. Yes . Page 35 2 Q. And have you ever seen that document before? 3 A. I have. 4 Q. And when did you see that document? 5 A. I think I read it when it was initially published. 6 Q. And that was 2000? 7 A. 2001, uh-huh. 8 Q. And did you note in there where they talk about the 9 history of the regulations and the changes with regard to 10 asbestos ? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. And is it your testimony, according to Mr. Hammond's 13 information in that box, that Exxon-Mobil complied with all 14 those changes? 15 A. Absolutely. 16 Q. All right. Other than Mr. Hammond's information that 17 you have in that box, do you have any other sources to draw on 18 to tell us that Exxon-Mobil complied with all the asbestos 19 regulations in that document and all the changes? 20 A. Well, yes, just from discussions I've had with Exxon 21 employees. other industrial hygienists with Exxon, even some of 22 the people I worked with at Exxon Chemical's plants. 23 supervisors, I've been able to -- I've been able to learn the 24 history of what Exxon's approach to asbestos programs was. 25 Q. In, let's say, 1970 through 1975 at -- and I want to WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005099 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 talk about the Baytown refinery. Page 36 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. Did they have a safety department? 4 A. Yes . 5 Q. And do you know in that safety department if part of 6 its role was dealing with asbestos exposures? 7 A. At the Baytown refinery, they had an industrial 8 hygiene department, and at that time I think they had at least 9 one full -time industrial hygienist, Eric Lebrocq, and he had 10 several technicians that worked with him. 11 Q. When is the first time that Exxon had an industrial 12 hygienist on site at the Baytown refinery? 13 A. I believe that would have been shortly after Jim 14 Hammond joined Humble. I would say probably about 1950. 15 Q. Okay. And do you know who that person would have 16 been? 17 A. I -- I don't recall. 18 Q. All right. Would you agree with me that a supervisor 19 of a safety department at Baytown, the Exxon Baytown refinery. 20 say, in 1970 should know what the potential hazards of asbestos 21 exposure are ? 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. And why is that? Why should they know that at that 24 time? 25 A. I would say certainly by 1965 and 1966, after Irving WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005100 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 37 1 Selikoff published his work regarding asbestos-containing 2 insulation, that there was an awareness, I think, within the 3 industry of the potential hazards of asbestos. 4 Q. Now, you said there would have been an awareness 5 within the industry. Would that be the petrochemical industry? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. How would the petrochemical industry -- and I'm 8 talking about the petrochemical plants, refineries throughout 9 the United States -- be aware of that information, from what 10 sources? 11 A. From various scientific journals. The New York 12 Academy of Sciences initially published the information from 13 Dr. Selikoff's work, so through professional journals and 14 professional societies. 15 Q. Would that information or should that information be 16 disseminated to all the plants in the United States so they 17 would have an awareness at that time? 18 DEFENSE COUNSEL: Objection, form. 19 MR. CAPPOLINO: Off the record for a second. 20 I'm sorry. 21 (Discussion off the record.) 22 MR. CAPPOLINO: Could you read back that 23 question? 24 (Requested portion read back.) 25 MR. MANNING: Objection to form. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005101 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 38 1 A. I would say yes, if it was felt to be relevant to 2 their operations. 3 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Let me ask you about Crown 4 Central Petroleum. You've read some of the deposition 5 testimony, as you've told us, from Mr. Trembly and Mr. Bradley; 6 correct? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. Other than reading their deposition testimony, did 9 you know anything about the operations of Crown in Pasadena, 10 either as an OSHA inspector or any other time in your career? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Based on your review of the deposition testimony of 13 Mr. Trembly and Mr. Bradley, do you agree or not agree that 14 their safety department should be aware of the hazards of 15 asbestos by 1970? 16 A. I -- I would say yes. 17 Q. Why do youagree with that? 18 A. By that time, as I said earlier. Dr. Selikoff's 19 findings had been published and legislation to enact OSHA was 20 either under development or coming to, you know, conclusion; 21 and I think the agency had already indicated that asbestos was 22 going to be one of its first priorities from a standard-setting 23 standpoint. 24 Q. All right. Have you ever seen or reviewed a document 25 called "The General and Special Laws of the State of Texas" WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005102 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 39 1 which came out in 1947 involving the Workers ' Compensation 2 regulations on asbestos? 3 A. Yes . 4 Q. I' ve had the reporter go ahead and mark Larson 5 Exhibit No . 4 . I'm going to hand that to you, Mr. Larson, ask 6 you if you can identify what that is for the record. 7 A. It' s titled, "General and Special Laws of the State 8 of Texas," and then it just says, "Passed by the Regular 9 Session of the " -- " the 50th Legislature." That's -- that ' s 10 essentially it 11 Q. Is that the document that you've seen before 12 regarding the workers' comp laws in Texas as of 1947 listing 13 asbestosis as a compensable disease? 14 A. I believe so. 15 Q. All right. Were you aware of that law when you 16 worked with OSHA? 17 A. I don't think I was. 18 Q. Do you know why not? 19 A. I was primarily concerned with the Federal rules and 20 regulations and not the State. 21 Q. All right. Were you familiar with the Walsh-Healey 22 Act when you were with OSHA? 23 A. Yes . 24 Q. When did you first become aware of that workers' comp 25 law? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005103 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. It would have been after I joined Exxon. Page 40 2 Q. And that would have been approximately when? 3 A. About 1976. 4 Q. Okay. I'm going to hand you what's been marked as 5 Larson Exhibit No. 5 which appears to be -- and, again , this 6 was attached, I believe, to Mr. Trembly's deposition - - some 7 articles or an article out of the Houston Chronicle, ask you if 8 you can look at that and tell me whether or not you've ever 9 seen that particular article excerpt before. 10 A. I don't know if I've seen this before, but I think it 11 was referred to in Mr. Trembly's deposition. 12 Q. Okay. Were you provided the exhibits to the Trembly 13 deposition? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Do you know why not? 16 A. I don't know. 17 Q. Did you ever ask for a copy of them? 18 A. No. 19 Q. All right. And you weren't provided any of the 20 exhibits to Mr. Bradley's deposition either, were you? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Were you ever -- other than seeing that in 23 Mr. Trembly's deposition or noticing that referred to in his 24 deposition, have you ever seen that document before? 25 A. Let's see. I probably did because I was living in WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005104 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 Houston at the time. Page 41 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. I probably read this when it was published. 4 Q. And I know you hadn't had a chance to really look at 5 it in depth, and certainly during a break I'd be happy for you 6 to look at it. Do you know what that article talks about? 7 A. It's information regarding the occurrence of 8 work-related cancer deaths throughout the -- I guess, the 9 nation's working population. 10 Q. From what substance? 11 A. This is talking about basically all cancers, but I 12 think it specifically mentions cancers also caused by asbestos. 13 Q. All right. I'm through with that one, sir. Thank 14 you. 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. I'm going to show you what's been marked as Larson 17 Exhibit - - and I'm kind of skipping here. I've got other 18 documents I'm going to show you that are in between those, but 19 I want to show you Larson Exhibit No. 35, and this appears to 20 be out of your white box dated August 17th, 2006. I believe 21 it's addressed to you from Mr. Kyle Kneese. I'll hand that to 22 you. Can you identify what that Exhibit No. 35 is? 23 A. It's a cover letter transmitting some of the legal 24 documents in depositions related to this case. 25 Q. And Kyle Kneese, did you ever talk to Mr. Kneese WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005105 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 about the Oney case? Page 42 2 A. No. 3 Q. Other than the counsel who's with you today, did you 4 talk to anybody else from Exxon -- or, I mean, from any other 5 lawyers representing Exxon about this case? 6 A. Just Chris Manning. 7 Q. I'm going to show you Larson Exhibit No. 36 and ask 8 you if you can identify what that is, sir? 9 A. Okay. That's another letter from DeHay and Elliston 10 transmitting the depositions of Mr. Trembly and Mr. Bradley. 11 Q. All right. Put those over here. Thank you. 12 I had referred you and asked you a little bit 13 about depositions of Jesse Stovall, and I'm just going to show 14 these to you and just make sure if you've never seen these 15 before. It appears that Mr. Stovall had a deposition taken on 16 June 27th , 1996. He also had a deposition taken of him on June 17 2nd, 1994 , which was his own asbestos deposition. And he had a 18 deposition taken of him of February 27th, 2004. I want to hand 19 you these three depositions. 20 A. Okay. 21 Q. I want you just to look at them and ask you, have you 22 ever seen those deposition before? 23 A. No. 24 Q. All right. Thanks. 25 I want to ask you a little bit about your WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005106 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 43 1 payment, Mr. Stovall -- Mr. Stovall -- I mean Mr. Larson. 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. How much are you paid by the hour for your consulting 4 doing work for Exxon-Mobil? 5 A. 375 per hour. 6 Q. And does that -- is that just your standard fee in 7 doing depositions or through trial? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. All right. And how long have you had that rate? 10 A. I think that I've had that rate for about a year. 11 Q. Yeah, because I think in a case in which you 12 testified in Galveston County, March 23rd, 2004, your rate at 13 that time was $300 per hour. 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. All right. Do you receive any other compensation 16 other than that $375 per hour? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Do you know how much you have charged Exxon-Mobil for 19 your time in this case from the time you started working on 20 this case up until today? 21 A. I estimate that I have spent probably 8 to 10 hours. 22 Q. All right. What is industrial hygiene? 23 A. Industrial hygiene? 24 Q. Yeah. 25 A. It's the art and science of anticipating. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005107 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 44 1 recognizing, evaluating and controlling occupational health 2 hazards. 3 Q. When you say, "controlling occupational health 4 hazards," would that also involve asbestos exposure? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. And would control also mean, from an industrial 7 hygiene standpoint for an industrial hygienist or somebody in 8 charge of safety at a refinery such as Baytown refinery, to 9 notify employees about the hazards of asbestos exposure? 10 A. I'd agree with that. 11 Q. Is it your testimony today that in the 1960s the 12 employees at the Exxon Baytown refinery were advised of the 13 hazards of asbestos exposure? 14 A. It's my understanding that the medical department had 15 that primary responsibility, in addition to conducting medical 16 surveillance for people that -- for any person that was 17 potentially exposed. 18 Q. Other than that, is there any other evidence that you 19 know of in the 1960s or testimony that Exxon notified its 20 employees in the 1960s about the hazards of asbestos? 21 A. Well, again, I would also refer to the James Hammond 22 depositions and his memos. 23 Q. All right. Now, you say, "the medical department." 24 In the 1960s did the Exxon Baytown refinery have a medical 25 department ? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005108 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. Yes . Page 45 2 Q. Did they have a hospital on site? 3 A. Yes, a clinic. 4 Q. A clinic. 5 And did they have doctors on site? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. And in the 1960s did they conduct periodic exams or 8 annual exams to screen for asbestos disease? 9 A. Yes . 10 Q. Do you know when that started at Exxon Baytown 11 refinery? 12 A. It's my understanding that it was in place when James 13 Hammond joined Humble Oil in 1947. 14 Q. And did it continue from 1947 up until when? 15 A. To the present. 16 Q. And when you mentioned medical surveillance, what 17 does that mean with regard to control and advising workers 18 about the hazards of asbestos exposure? 19 A. Well, it would have began with a pre-employment 20 physical examination to make sure the person is suited for the 21 work that he's being employed to do, and then it would consist 22 of periodic follow-up exams typically conducted on a one to 23 three-year interval. In the case of asbestos, it would be 24 chest x-ray and pulmonary function. 25 Q. Do you know if chest x-rays and pulmonary function WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005109 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 46 1 studies were done on Exxon employee from 1947 up until the '70s 2 or ' 80s? 3 A. I don't know when the pulmonary function began, but I 4 know x-rays have always been given, like I said, since '47. 5 Pulmonary function may or may not have been provided at that 6 time. I 'm not sure when that started. 7 Q. Do you know whether or not OSHA ever went to the 8 Exxon Baytown refinery in the 1960 -- or 1970s to do any type 9 of testing or to do any type of examination of the plant? 10 A. Regarding? 11 Q. Asbestos exposure. 12 A. I'm not aware of any. 13 Q. Do you know if in the 1960s and 1970s Exxon refinery 14 at Baytown required its employees to wear respirators? 15 A. Yes . 16 Q. It's your testimony they required it? 17 A. Yes . 18 Q. And where did you get that information from? 19 A. It's just my overall impression from working at 20 Exxon, talking to people at Exxon, also, again, the James 21 Hammond depositions, the James Hammond's memo, that that was a 22 standard operating practice within Exxon from very early on 23 since at least the 1930s. 24 Q. So was it your understanding that all the employees 25 at Exxon wore respirators or just some of them at the Baytown WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005110 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 refinery? Page 47 2 A. Some, depending on the potential hazards of their 3 j ob. 4 Q. Which Exxon employees would wear respirators 5 depending on their jobs? 6 A. Specific to? 7 Q. Baytown refinery in the '60s and the '70s. 8 A. To asbestos? 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. Oh, okay. Certainly anyone who was installing or 11 removing insulation, and that could be obviously insulators as 12 well as people in the labor pool that may have been doing 13 clean-up work. 14 From time to time, it could also include other 15 crafts if they were working near or with insulators, for 16 example, but it depended on the exposure. That was closely 17 monitored by Exxon's safety inspectors that were assigned to 18 each unit to enforce the safety rules. 19 Q. Okay. Do you know who these Exxon safety inspectors 20 were, say, from -- at the Exxon refinery from 1965 through 21 1973? 22 A. By name I don't, but I think in reviewing Mr. Oney's 23 2001 deposition -- 2 4 Q. Uh-huh. 25 A. -- he referred to the man at Exxon who wore the gold WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005111 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 48 1 hat who was the safety -- the head safety guy who would fire 2 you in a second if you broke a rule. 3 Q. Yeah. So what you gathered from Mr. Oney's 4 deposition, the Exxon safety person, if he caught somebody like 5 Mr. Oney who was a -- working for Brown & Root, the contractor 6 at the Exxon refinery, and he wasn't wearing a hard hat, the 7 Exxon safety person would fire Mr. Oney? 8 A. Well, he wouldn't fire. He would go to their 9 supervisor. 10 Q. Whose supervisor? 11 A. Brown & Root. 12 Q. And would it be your testimony that Brown & Root's 13 supervisor would fire Mr. Oney? 14 A. That -- that would be my belief, yes. 15 Q. But the Exxon safety guy would get with the 16 supervisor for Brown & Root and give him that information? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And would recommend or tell him that he -- Mr. Oney 19 needs to be fired? 20 A. Well, it would depend on the situation. I mean, 21 he -- if it was a minor infraction of a safety rule, I'm 22 certain that he wouldn't recommend that he be fired. He'd just 23 tell him to make sure that the situation was corrected. And in 24 a very severe situation, for example, somebody is smoking a 25 cigarette in the cat cracker, that might very well be the WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005112 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 result. Page 49 2 Q. You had said that you had gotten some information 3 from certain employees with regard to control measures. Were 4 some of these employees at the Baytown refinery? 5 A. Yes . 6 Q. Can you identify who they were by name? 7 A. Yes. Eric Lebrocq. 8 Q. Do you know how to spell his last name? 9 A. L-E-B-R-O-C-Q. 10 Q. C-Q? 11 And he was the industrial hygienist? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. Is he certified? 14 A. I believe so. 15 Q. Do you know if he ever worked for OSHA? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Who else? 18 A. He worked for the Air Force at one time. 19 Bruce Simpson, S-I-M-P-S-O-N. 20 Q. And what was his job there? 21 A. He was also an industrial hygienist. 22 Q. When was he there? 23 A. He was there beginning in about 1975. 24 Q. Do you know how long he was there? 25 A. Approximately 20 years. And he did work for OSHA at WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005113 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 one time. Page 50 2 Q. Are these two people still alive? 3 A. I would think so. 4 Q. Do you know where they are? 5 A. Probably somewhere in the Baytown area. 6 Q. Who else, if you know, Mr. Larson, that you talked to 7 at the Baytown refinery? 8 A. Let's see. That's all that I can recall. 9 Q. All right. Did you ever go out in the field and talk 10 to any of the supervisors about whether or not asbestos control 11 measures were being instituted at the Baytown refinery? 12 A. I personally did not. 13 Q. Do you know if anybody ever did? 14 A. Oh, absolutely. 15 Q. And I'm talking -- 16 A. For example, people like Eric Lebrocq and Bruce 17 Simpson and the other staff people in Houston that worked for 18 James Hammond would be there periodically. 19 Q. Okay. You had said in a prior deposition that you 20 spent two weeks at Baytown learning about their programs. 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. What programs was that? 23 A. Just their general approach to the industrial hygiene 24 programs that were in effect, things like hearing conservation. 25 hydrocarbon exposure, respiratory protection, asbestos, and a WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005114 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 51 1 whole -- whole range of topics related to industrial hygiene at 2 Baytown. 3 Q. You also testified -- and, again, I know this was in 4 the Altimore case, but I want to ask you -- that your only 5 hands-on , out-in-the-field experience at the Exxon Baytown 6 facility was limited to the two weeks you spent getting your 7 industrial hygiene training at that facility. Is that still a 8 correct statement ? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. You had discussed previously about a accident 11 prevention manual at the Baytown refinery dated October 1st, 12 1949. Do you recall that? 13 A. I believe so, yes. 14 Q. Is that in that box of documents you brought me 15 today? 16 A. I don't think so. 17 Q. Do you know whether or not that manual talked about 18 asbestos hazards, asbestos exposure? 19 A. I don't believe so, no. 20 Q. Do you know why it didn't? 21 A. At that time, dating back to 1937 with the Bonsib 22 report, asbestos was addressed in its, I guess, its own 23 separate program, according to the recommendations in the 24 Bonsib report. So that, in essence, was the asbestos program. 25 Q. The Bonsib report? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005115 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. Yes . Page 52 2 Q. You've testified about that several times? 3 A. Yes . 4 Q. In fact, I think that was brought up in the Trembly 5 and Bradley depositions. Do you recall that? 6 A. I recall reference to that, that report, yes. 7 Q. And what was that Bonsib report called? I've had it 8 marked as an exhibit in this case, but do you recall what the 9 name of it was? 10 A. I believe it was called Dust-Producing Operations in 11 the Refining or Petrochemical Industry. 12 Q. Okay. Do you know if that document was circulated to 13 petrochemical refineries in the United States? 14 A. I don't know that for a fact. I do know that James 15 Hammond testified to that -- to that fact. 16 Q. What did he testify to with regard to that fact? 17 A. He said that it was made available to other 18 companies 19 Q. Did he talk about how it was made available to other 20 companies ? 21 A. I don't recall. 22 Q. All right. And certainly that made available to 23 other companies would include companies doing petrochemical 24 refining in the Texas Gulf Coast area? 25 A. I would think so. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005116 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 53 1 Q. Did the Exxon employees ever get separate copies of 2 any of the accident prevention manuals or any other type of 3 safety manuals at the Exxon Baytown plant and refinery? 4 A. It's my understanding that each employee received a 5 copy and also each contractor received a copy. 6 Q. All right. Now, let me ask you about what copies 7 each employee received. What documents are you talking about? 8 A. Would have been the safety procedures manual for the 9 refinery. 10 Q. And when was that compiled? 11 A. I don't know -- or when it was originally, but 12 certainly by 1949 we referenced the manual that was in effect. 13 so at least by then. 14 Q. But that didn't talk about asbestos? 15 A. No, not specifically in that book. 16 Q. Well, did it talk about it generally in that book? 17 A. Just general safety rules that applied refinery wide 18 to every employee. Now, if there are other classes of 19 employees that had special hazards, then there would be a 20 separate document that addressed those. 21 Q. We've talked about the 1949 document. What other 22 manuals were provided to each Exxon employee or contract 23 employee at the Exxon Baytown refinery from '49 on specifically 24 with regard to the hazards of asbestos exposure? 25 A. It's my understanding that each craft also had WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005117 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 54 1 specific safety procedures that they were provided, things that 2 specifically related to their craft. 3 Q. Okay. And that was at the -- that also was at the 4 Baytown refinery? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. Was that a document? 7 A. I believe so. 8 Q. Do you know the name of it? 9 A. I -- I've heard reference to shop manuals. I don't 10 know if that was the formal title of those, but I've heard 11 reference to shop manuals. 12 Q. Okay. Anything else? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Do these shop manuals talk about the hazards of 15 asbestos exposure with regard to a particular craft? 16 A. I don't know. I have been told that the medical 17 department briefed employees that were in the medical 18 surveillance program on the hazards of asbestos and why the 19 exams were being conducted. 20 Q. When did that start? 21 A. I believe Hammond referenced that was in place when 22 he joined the company in 1947. 23 Q. And that continued until when? 24 A. Until the present day. 25 Q. And what doctors at the Exxon Baytown refinery WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005118 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 55 1 specifically advised employees about the hazards of asbestos 2 exposure by name? 3 A. I don't recall their names. 4 Q. All right. Do you -- are these shop manuals still in 5 existence? Do you have copies of them? 6 A. I don't. I don't know if they are or not. 7 Q. Have you tried to look for them? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Have the lawyers for Exxon-Mobil given you copies of 10 the shop manuals ? 11 A. No. 12 Q. We've talked about the shop manuals. We've talked 13 about this 1949 safety procedure. Any other documents that you 14 know of from 1940s on that were given to Exxon employees or 15 employees of contractors with regard to the hazards of asbestos 16 exposures and the potential diseases they would cause? 17 A. Not that I'm aware of. 18 THE WITNESS: Is there any way to cool off this 19 room? It 's kind of warm in here. 20 MR. CAPPOLINO: Do you want to take a break? 21 MR. MANNING: Yeah. Let's take a break. 22 (Recess from 10:35 to 10:47.) 23 (Exhibit Nos. 37 through 39 marked.) 24 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Mr. Larson, we're back on the 25 record. I had mentioned to you in the depositions of Jesse WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005119 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 56 1 Stovall and the dates that they were taken, and I just went 2 ahead and for the record -- plus, I think we'll also give you 3 an opportunity to read them if you wanted to. I went ahead and 4 marked Larson Exhibit 37, 38 and 39 as exhibits to your 5 deposition. And just for the record, 37 is the oral deposition 6 of Jesse Stovall taken on February 27th, 2004 in the Altimore 7 case. And does that appear what that exhibit is? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Exhibit No. 38 is the deposition of Jesse Franklin 10 Stovall in the Marshall and Wilkerson cases in Harris County, 11 and that was taken on June 27th, 1996. That's Larson Exhibit 12 No. 38. Is that what it appears to be, Mr. Larson? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And then, finally, the deposition of Mr. Stovall in 15 the Stovall versus Fibreboard case in Harris County taken on 16 June 2nd, 1994, Larson Exhibit No. 39. Does that appear to be 17 what it is? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. All right. And I want to talk about those a little 20 bit later, but let me ask you some questions now about 21 Mr. Oney. You said you read his deposition; correct? 22 A. I did. 23 Q. And it was your understanding from the deposition 24 that he worked at the refinery, the Baytown refinery twice in 25 '65 or '66 and 1969 as a welder? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005120 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. Correct. Page 57 2 Q. And that he worked with andaround 3 asbestos-containing blocks during one of those times? 4 A. I don't believe that he indicated that it was 5 asbestos-containing. I think he mentioned block and -- and 6 pipe insulation. 7 Q. Could you tell from his testimony whether or not 8 those block and pipe insulation would have contained asbestos, 9 just from your reading of his deposition and your knowledge of 10 the plant? 11 A. No, I couldn't. 12 Q. All right. Do you know whether or not welders at the 13 Exxon refinery in '65 to '69 ever worked around 14 asbestos-containing materials at that plant or with 15 asbestos-containing materials at that plant? 16 A. I would say generally no. I'm not saying there's not 17 a possibility that at some point in time they could be near a 18 material that contained asbestos, but generally a welder does 19 welding; an insulator does insulating. And unless they were 20 working on top of each other, I don't see a potential for 21 exposure to a asbestos-containing material. 22 Q. So there would be no time in, say, '65 through '69 23 where a welder, say, a welder working -- employed by a 24 contractor like Brown & Root would be working around any 25 asbestos-containing insulation at that plant? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005121 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 58 1 A. Again, I'd say for the most part no, but from time to 2 time they could be near material like that; but if they were, 3 they'd be required to follow Exxon's asbestos-handling 4 procedures and they would have been required if there was 5 potential exposure to wear respiratory protection. 6 Q. And the contract employees would be required to 7 follow those policies also? 8 A. Absolutely. 9 Q. And were they given a copy of those policies? 10 A. The contractor himself or herself was, yes. 11 Q. And then do you know whether the contractor would 12 give it to their contract employees to review? 13 A. I don't know if they were given physically to each 14 and every contract employee, but they would certainly have been 15 trained into the requirements and the fact that they were to 16 follow those. 17 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to who Mr. Oney's 18 supervisor from Brown & Root was during the times he worked at 19 Exxon Baytown refinery? 20 A. I do know it was Brown & Root, but I don't know 21 specifically who his supervisor would have been. 22 Q. Did you ever visit with Brown & Root contract 23 supervisors, the contractor's supervisors at the Exxon refinery 24 at any time? 25 A. I have at the Exxon chemical plant on the ship WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005122 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 channel. Page 59 2 Q. All right. But not at the refinery? 3 A. Not specifically at the refinery, no. 4 Q. All right. Mr. Oney also said -- and just for 5 reference, I believe it was on Page 59 through Page 61 of his 6 deposition -- that he worked with sprags, which you said were a 7 stainless steel piece of metal that you weld on a skin of a 8 boiler or a heater and you push that insulation onto that and 9 there's a covering put over it. Do you remember him stating 10 that? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Do you know what that process involves from an 13 industrial hygiene standpoint or your experience with 14 Exxon-Mobil? 15 A. Well, it would have involved the fitters and 16 boilermakers actually installing the structure itself, and then 17 at that point the welders would come in to install the sprag, 18 which essentially is the metal component that holds the 19 insulation on the boiler itself. Once the sprags were welded 20 on, then the insulators would physically come in and insulate 21 the boiler, but that would be after the welding was complete. 22 Q. Okay. And so you're saying that when Mr. Oney said 23 the insulation is pushed onto that -- talking about the 24 sprag -- it's your testimony that an insulator would do that? 25 A. Correct. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005123 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 60 1 Q. Would that insulator be an employee of Exxon or would 2 that be a contractor employee? 3 A. It could be either, but if it was a large project, it 4 was probably a contractor. It was probably a Brown & Root 5 employee. 6 Q. And so it's your testimony that Mr. Oney would never 7 have put the insulation on the sprag himself? 8 A. No. 9 Q. And how do you know that? 10 A. Essentially, craft lines are fairly strict. Again, 11 you know. a welder does welding, an insulator does insulating. 12 pipefitter does pipefitting, so on and so forth. 13 Q. And Mr. Oney would not even be around the insulator 14 when he put the covering on it after he put the sprag on? 15 A. I wouldn't think so. The order of work, as I said. 16 the boilermakers complete their job, the welders come in and 17 complete their job and then the insulators come in and complete 18 their job 19 Q. And just to be fair to you, Mr. Larson, we all know 20 you weren 't there during that time watching Mr. Oney doing his 21 work? 22 A. No. 23 Q. You were never there at any time when Mr. Oney was 24 doing his work? 25 A. Correct. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005124 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 61 1 Q. Then he said a covering was put over it. Do you know 2 what that covering means? 3 A. Excuse me. Typically, they'll put metal flashing 4 over the insulation to protect it from the weather and from 5 contact. 6 Q. He also said in his deposition that his job at the 7 cracking unit at Exxon in 1969 for about two months was to weld 8 on those sprags and there was thousands of them, and then 9 they'd put the block on that. And then he said, "they or we or 10 whoever." Do you recall reading that testimony? 11 A. Yes . 12 Q. So did he indicate in his deposition that he could 13 have put that on there? 14 A. No. I thought he was referring to Brown & Root as 15 "we" -16 Q. But he didn't say -- 17 A. -- as the company. 18 Q. I'm sorry for interrupting you. 19 But he didn't say Brown & Root in his testimony. 20 did he? 21 A. Not specifically. 22 Q. Well, did he say it generally? 23 A. By referring to they or we, it could have referred to 24 either Exxon personnel or Brown & Root personnel. That's -- 25 that's the way I read that. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005125 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 62 1 Q. Did you ever make any attempt to talk to any people 2 that worked with Mr. Oney at the Exxon refinery during those 3 periods of time? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Then he said that was a fluid cracker, a cracking 6 unit. Did the cracking unit, the fluid cracker where he 7 worked. that he refers to, have asbestos-containing materials 8 in that part of the refinery? 9 A. I don't specifically know that it did, but it very 10 well could have. 11 Q. And what kind of products could it have had? 12 A. At that time period, it could have been block or pipe 13 insulation. 14 Q. Have you ever read any type of industrial hygiene 15 survey of that plant during that period of time that lists the 16 types of asbestos-containing materials that Exxon refinery had 17 in the cracking unit? 18 A. I don't recall, no. 19 Q. Do you know if any one of those surveys exist? 20 A. I have no idea. 21 Q. Have you tried to look for one? 22 A. No. 23 Q. He also said in his deposition that the blocks were 24 off-white and vary in sizes and most of them were cut to fit. 25 Is that the way these blocks, as you know them, were usually -- WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005126 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 usually looked like or how they were cut? Page 63 2 A. I believe that's a reasonable explanation. 3 Q. All right. He said on the first time he worked 4 there - - and I'm referring to Page 70, Line 19 through Page 76, 5 Line 1 of his deposition. He said in '65 or '66 for a month he 6 worked on another shutdown, worked on a platformer. Do you 7 recall that testimony? 8 A. Yes, I do. 9 Q. What does a shutdown mean? 10 A. It's basically when -- it's periodic maintenance done 11 on the units in a refinery or a petrochemical plant where they 12 come in and refurbish the equipment and do preventative 13 maintenance. 14 Q. You've never been out in the field on a shutdown. 15 have you? 16 A. No. 17 Q. You've never been out in the field on a turnaround? 18 A. No. 19 Q. What is a turnaround? 20 A. A shutdown and a turnaround are basically the same. 21 They're essentially identical. 22 Q. What is a platformer? 23 A. A platformer is used to crack incoming naphtha 24 streams into the basic fractions that make up gasoline. 25 Q. On these shutdowns or these turnarounds, would both WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005127 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 64 1 Exxon employees and contractor employees, like Brown & Root 2 contractors, be working on the same jobs together? 3 A. For the most part, it would be contractors, although 4 Exxon would have provided supervision. 5 Q. So it's your testimony today that no Exxon employees 6 would have actually been out in the field doing the type of 7 work Mr. Oney talked about or working with insulation at the 8 same time as the contractor employees during shutdowns? 9 MR. MANNING: Object to the form. 10 A. I think that would be -- from what I know and from 11 what I've gathered from people I've talked to and reading 12 things, that it was -- it was primarily contractors. They 13 may -- there may have been some Exxon employees, inspectors, 14 safety-type people that would be in the vicinity, but for the 15 most part, the work was conducted by contract employees. 16 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) And what source did you get that 17 information from? 18 A. It's just general practice in the refining industry 19 that contractors are normally brought in to do the shutdowns 20 and turnarounds. It's just -- otherwise, I mean, shutdowns and 21 turnarounds require a peak workload of -- of hands-on work that 22 generally is not staffed by the company for each refinery. So 23 they would bring in people like Brown & Root who have the 24 background and experience in doing shutdowns and turnarounds to 25 provide that temporary manpower during that short period of WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005128 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 65 1 time, the two to three-week period that typically these take. 2 Q. Well, what I'm asking you specifically -- and I want 3 to confine myself to the Exxon Baytown refinery plant during 4 the shutdowns and turnarounds -- 5 A. Okay. 6 Q. -- that Mr. Oney worked on. 7 What specific information, whether it be 8 documents or talking to employees, other than these general 9 practices do you know of that indicates that the contract 10 employees were not working alongside or side by side with any 11 Exxon employees? 12 A. I don't have anything specific. 13 Q. Have you made any attempt to try to find any specific 14 information to help you with that matter? 15 A. No. 16 Q. He said also in thatsection that he was a pipefitter 17 and for the month on a daily basis he worked in transport lines 18 replacing gaskets and putting in tees where they could add on 19 to the existing pipe. Some of it was in pipe racks. And then 20 he said it was outside, above ground work. Do you recall that 21 testimony? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. I want to ask you a little bit about transport lines. 24 What were those? 25 A. A transport line would be moving a product from a -- WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005129 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 a processing unit to storage, primarily, or to another Page 66 2 processing unit. 3 Q. Do you know whether or not there was any 4 asbestos-containing materials on or around transport lines 5 during the time Mr. Oney worked there? 6 A. There could have been in -- in any very high 7 temperature piping system. And when I say, "high temperature," 8 generally above 800 degrees Fahrenheit. Back in those periods. 9 there was -- asbestos was the only practical binder to use in 10 that type insulation. Typically, it would be 15 percent 11 asbestos as a binder and 85 percent magnesia or calcium 12 silicate, so depending on the temperature of the line. 13 Q. And that type of insulation was talked about in the 14 Bonsib report, wasn't it? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. All right. And they talked in the Bonsib report 17 about if it's disturbed or if that insulation is taken out f 18 what type of concentrations of asbestos dust are released. Do 19 you recall that? 20 A. They did measurements for total dust basically - - 21 Q. And do you recall -- 22 A. -- in the Bonsib -- 23 Q. -- those measurements in the Bonsib report? 24 A. Yes, I do. 25 Q. What were some of the measurements you recall? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005130 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 67 1 A. Well, let's see. I remember they did measurements 2 when insulators were insulating a 12-inch steam line. I recall 3 that, and there were probably measurements for 8 to 10 other 4 operations. 5 Q. Do you recall what the range of the measurements were 6 or do you need to look at the report? 7 A. In millions of particles per cubic foot, I think they 8 ranged anywhere from 8 to 20 some odd. 9 Q. Okay. I want to ask you about the gaskets. He said 10 he replaced gaskets also in that testimony. Do you have any 11 knowledge as to whether or not any of those gaskets he said he 12 replaced could have been asbestos-containing gaskets? 13 A. I don't have specific knowledge, but I would think 14 that there's at least a -- a possibility or that they -- that 15 they would have, yes. 16 Q. Do you know the manufacturers, who the manufacturers 17 of any of those gaskets would have been that he said he 18 replaced? 19 A. Not specifically. 20 Q. Do you know what type of gaskets they would have 21 been? Spiral wound? Whatever? 22 A. I have no idea. 23 Q. And do you know how gaskets are removed and replaced? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. How do you know? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005131 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 68 1 A. Well, I know it from observing people in the field 2 and also from reading a number of depositions that described 3 that process. 4 Q. And what is described, based on what you've learned, 5 how it's done? 6 A. Typically, once a flange -- once the bolts from a 7 flange are removed and it's pried open, a person would normally 8 use like a putty knife or a -- like a hacksaw blade to 9 scrape -- well, sometimes the gaskets will actually just fall 10 out intact. Sometimes they have to be scraped out. 11 Q. And when they're scraped out, have you read any type 12 of studies which indicates whether or not asbestos dust is 13 released when they are scraped out? 14 DEFENSE COUNSEL: Objection, form. 15 A. Well, first of all, if it's an asbestos-containing 16 gasket, there have been studies done, both -- both 17 reconstructive studies as well as in the field type studies and 18 measurements taken. 19 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) All right. Have you read any of 20 Dr. Longo's work, Mr. Longo's work? 21 A. I'm familiar with it. I don't remember specifically 22 reading it though. 23 Q. Mr. Oney also talked about putting in tees, T-E-E-S. 24 Do you know what tees are? 25 A. Yes. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005132 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 Q. What are they? Page 69 2 A. It's when one pipe joins another forming a T. 3 Q. These tees contained asbestos, didn't they? 4 MR. MANNING: Objection to form. 5 A. No. He's talking about pipe. Pipe is metal. 6 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) All right. 7 A. The only way, I guess, like fire water lines that 8 used products like Certainteed could have, but he's talking 9 about metal pipe. 10 Q. Let me just ask you something here and this is -- 11 DEFENSE COUNSEL: Objection, nonresponsive. 12 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) I'm kind of jumping ahead of 13 myself. In fact, this is marked as Exhibit 7, and we'll talk 14 about it later, which is in this binder. 15 This is Exhibit No. 7. I'm going to hand this 16 to you. Have you ever seen that document before? 17 A. I don't believe so. 18 Q. Does that appear to be a document from Exxon? 19 A. From Humble, yes. 20 Q. From Humble. 21 And Humble was a predecessor to Exxon? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. And can you identify or tell us what that document is 24 from what you can see? 25 A. Let's see. It's "Humble Oil and Refining Company, WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005133 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 70 1 Baytown Refinery, Insulation Materials Used in 1965, " and it 2 lists the material class, manufacturer and then quantity. 3 Q. Does it mention tees there? 4 A. Yes, but that's referring to insulation, not piping. 5 Q. Okay. And I wanted to ask you that because I saw 6 that in there. Can you tell us what that means? 7 A. It means that it's a preformed piece of insulation 8 that would be used to insulate tees. 9 Q. Okay. Are the tees put on insulation or how does 10 insulation work with tees? How does that work? 11 A. I'm not -- 12 Q. Let me back up again. Again, he said he put in tees 13 where they could add onto the existing pipe. What does that 14 mean? 15 A. Well, as a pipefitter, that means that he was 16 constructing -- it was essentially new construction where he 17 was adding pipe to an existing piping system, which means he 18 would have cut the existing pipe and then added another pipe to 19 the -- the "T" that's formed by the original pipe and the new 20 pipe. That would not have involved either removing or 21 installing insulation though. 22 Q. And that pipe would not have been insulated with any 23 asbestos-containing pipe insulation? 24 A. I can't say that for a fact, but if it had been -- 25 let's just -- WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005134 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 Q. Okay. Page 71 2 A. -- make the assumption that it had been. It would 3 not have been the pipefitter's job to remove that insulation. 4 It would have been the insulator's job to do that. So it would 5 have been removed prior to him even starting his work. 6 Q. Well, how do you know Mr. Oney never removed any 7 insulation, just based on the general procedure that an 8 insulator does that? 9 A. It's the craft rules. 10 Q. And what craft rules are those? 11 A. It's the craft rules that have been in effect 12 throughout the refining industry since the very early days. 13 Q. And it's your testimony those craft lines have always 14 been strict, strict craft lines? 15 A. I'd say for the most part . I'm not saying that it -- 16 that it would be impossible for -- if there was a small bit of 17 insulation on a pipe that the boilermaker might break the 18 rules -- or I'm sorry, the pipefitter might break the rules and 19 take that off, but as general rule. he would not. 20 Q. Do you -- he also talked about pipe racks. What were 21 pipe racks? 22 A. Pipe racks are suspended racks that carry product. 23 again, from one processing area to another or to storage, say. 24 in a tank farm. 25 Q. All right. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005135 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 72 1 A. They're usually 10 to 14 feet high suspended by 2 concrete pillars. 3 Q. Was there any asbestos-containing pipe insulation on 4 any of the pipes on the pipe racks during that time? 5 A. Again, it would depend on the operating temperature. 6 If it exceeded 800 degrees Fahrenheit, there's at least a very 7 good chance that it did. 8 Q. I want to ask you about some issues with regard to 9 contractors and employees. At the Exxon Baytown refinery, did 10 Exxon employees and contractor employees both attend safety 11 meetings at the same time? 12 A. At the same time? 13 Q. Yeah. 14 A. I -- I don't think so. 15 Q. It's not your testimony and you wouldn't agree that 16 it was a common practice for all trades at the Exxon refinery 17 in Baytown to work side by side where asbestos-containing 18 insulation was being applied or removed? 19 A. Well, I'm not -- I don't think it was common. I 20 think occasionally it could occur during a shutdown or 21 turnaround; but for, you know, day in and day out, I would say, 22 no, that would not occur. 23 Q. Would you agree that during turnarounds at the Exxon 24 Baytown refinery many crafts would work together side by side 25 to get the unit up? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005136 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. That could occur. Page 73 2 Q. Would you agree that the contractors furnished 3 workers who would work under the conditions that Exxon 4 specified? 5 A. Could you repeat that, please? 6 Q. The contractor furnished workers, contract employees. 7 who workec under the conditions Exxon specified? 8 A. I don't believe that Exxon specified. I think the 9 individual contractors supervised their own employees and they 10 would have specified their work practices. 11 Q. All right. So it's your testimony that no Exxon 12 supervisor , a supervisor employed at Exxon, would ever instruct 13 a contractor employee on what to do or how the work was to be 14 done? 15 A. No. I wouldn't think so. 16 Q. Would you agree that contractors and their employees 17 and Exxon employees worked side by side quite often in the '60s 18 and '7 0s? 19 A. I would say infrequently. 20 Q. Would you agree that Exxon assumed the responsibility 21 for the contractor workers' safety? 22 MR. MANNING: Objection to form. 23 A. No. The contractor was responsible for his own 24 employees. 25 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Would you agree that Exxon WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005137 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 74 1 assumed the responsibility for the safety of the contractors at 2 the plant? 3 MR. MANNING: Objection to form. 4 A. No. 5 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) All right. I'm going to show you 6 the deposition of Mr. Stovall from the Altimore case, and I 7 want to ask you some questions from that . Here's his 8 deposition. Now, unfortunately, I don't have a page and line. 9 and you may have to bear with me on that , but could you turn to 10 Page 31 of Mr. Stovall's deposition? 11 A. Okay. 12 MR. MANNING: Excuse me. And this is the 13 Deposition Exhibit No. 37 dated February 27th of '04? 14 MR. CAPPOLINO: I'm sorry . That's correct. 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Now, I don 't have the line number 17 and -- I'm sorry - - you may have to look through there, but 18 doesn't Mr. Stovall state on Page 31 that Exxon employees and 19 contractor employees were at safety meetings and that they 20 worked for him? 21 MR. MANNING: Excuse me. Counsel. Are you 22 talking about the actual Page 31 of the deposition or Page 31? 23 MR. CAPPOLINO: No. I'm talking about Page 31. 24 I said I didn't have the line number. I don't have another 25 copy, but I can try to find it. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005138 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 75 1 MR. MANNING: But there's two page numbers on 2 each page. is what I'm saying. Do you see what I 'm saying? 3 MR. CAPPOLINO : Yeah. 4 MR. MANNING: So, I mean, I just wanted to 5 figure out which one it is. 6 MR. CAPPOLINO : That's okay. 7 MR. MANNING: Is it this 31? 8 MR. CAPPOLINO : No. 9 MR. MANNING: It's this 31, isn't it? 10 MR. CAPPOLINO : No. 11 MR. MANNING: It's this 31 then? 12 MR. CAPPOLINO : Yeah, I'm sorry. 13 MR. MANNING: Okay. All right. 14 MR. CAPPOLINO : I'm sorry. 15 MR. MANNING: Then it's not page - - we need to 16 figure out what page here because that's the page of the 17 deposition 18 MR. CAPPOLINO : Okay. Why don't we just agree 19 that the page at the bottom is what we're talking about; is 20 that okay? 21 MR. MANNING: Well, then you are going to have 22 two line - 23 MR. CAPPOLINO : Well, that's fine. 24 MR. MANNING: You're going to have three Line 25 4 ' s on the same page. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005139 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 76 1 MR. CAPPOLINO: Fine. Then we'll go to what you 2 want to do. We'll start at Page 68 and go to the lines. Is 3 that fair? 4 MR. MANNING: Yep, that's fair. 5 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) All right. Let's go to Page 68 6 and that starts at, I believe. Line 6. See that, Mr. Larson? 7 Do you see where I'm pointing to -8 A. Yes, yes. 9 Q. -- for Mr. Stovall? 10 He said, "At the safety meetings that you held. 11 who was there?" 12 He said, "People primarily that worked for me." 13 "The Exxon employees?" 14 "Yeah." 15 "Were there any contractor employees present?" 16 He said, "Yes, there were, if they worked for 17 me . " 18 "So contractors that worked for you took part in 19 the safety meetings?" 20 His answer was, "Right." 21 Did I read that correctly? 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. Then starting again on Page 68, Line 16, he said. 24 "Can you give us the names of some of the contractors that 25 worked for you at any time that you remember?" WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005140 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 77 1 His answer was, "Diamond, Incorporated; Brown & 2 Root; S.I.P., Incorporated." 3 Did I read that part correctly? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. All right. I want to turn to page -- let's go to 6 this and see if I can do this here. 7 A. I just want to clarify. He doesn't -- he said the 8 contractors there. He didn't say whether it was the contract 9 employees or their supervisors. He didn't make a distinction. 10 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, nonresponsive. 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) I want to go to -- and this would 13 be page, I believe, Page 74 and starting on Line 19. 14 A. Okay. 15 Q. I believe this is a question by Troy Chandler in the 16 Altimore case. And he says there, "Okay. And was it common 17 practice for all trades at the Exxon refinery to work side by 18 side while asbestos-containing insulation is either being 19 applied or removed? Is that a common practice." 20 His answer was, "Yes, that's -- we tried to form 21 teams, you know. We mentioned football awhile ago. We had 22 guards and we had tackles and we had tight ends and like that. 23 And we might not know what the tight end was doing, but we knew 24 that he was always there or the play wouldn't work. That's the 25 way it kind of -- with our operation out there, we had to have WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005141 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 the team players to finish the job." Page 78 2 Did I read that correctly? 3 A. Yes . 4 Q. All right. Do you know whether or not machinists 5 ever took asbestos insulation off turbines or would that be 6 insulators ? 7 A. It would be insulators. 8 Q. I want to show you Page 47, Line -- I'm sorry. 9 Page 106, Line 1 of that deposition where Mr. Chandler asked a 10 question. 11 He said, "And there were turbines that 12 machinists worked on at Exxon; isn't that fair?" 13 He said, "That's right." 14 "And the turbines were also insulated, weren't 15 they?" 16 His answer was, "That's right." 17 "And if a machinist needs to work on a turbine. 18 how would he get the asbestos off?" 19 "ANSWER: He would take it off himself in most 20 cases." 21 Did I read that correctly? 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. And that's contrary to what you just said? 24 A. Yes . 25 Q. And so you don't agree with what Mr. Stovall is WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005142 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 saying? Page 79 2 A. I would say that would be an exception. 3 Q. All right. And further he said -- and I guess this 4 is starting at Page 106, Line 14 -- "Is it a fair statement 5 that it was very important, if a unit was down, for a 6 turnaround to get it back online as soon as you possibly 7 could?" 8 His answer was, "That's right." 9 And the question was, "And because it was very 10 important to get a unit back online as soon as you possibly 11 could, is it also fair to say that many, many men representing 12 many, many crafts would work together side by side in order to 13 get the unit up?" 14 His answer was, "That's right." 15 Did I right that correctly? 16 A. Yes . 17 Q. He further said, "You could have machinists and 18 insulators and pipefitters all working side by side to get that 19 unit up; isn't that fair?" 20 The answer was, "That's a reasonable statement. 21 yes . " 22 Did I read that correctly? 23 A. Yes . 24 Q. Do you agree with that? Do you agree that's how it 25 was done there ? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005143 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 80 1 A. Again, I would say that that's certainly possible, 2 but I don't think it happened that often. 3 Q. Mr. Stovall -- do you know Mr. Stovall was out in the 4 field supervising people for 30 years at least? 5 A. I'11 -- you know. I'll accept that. 6 Q. Wouldn't you agree that if a field supervisor like 7 Mr. Stovall was out there for 30, 35 years supervising 8 employees and watching them do this kind of work, he'd be in a 9 better position to know what was going out in the field than 10 you would at the Exxon refinery? 11 MR. MANNING: Objection, form. 12 A. Well, I -- I accept his testimony as given, but 13 that's one supervisor probably out of hundreds. He may not 14 have been representative of most of the supervisors. 15 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Have you ever heard of the term 16 "supervisor of supervisors"? 17 A. I'm sorry? 18 Q. Have you ever heard of the term -- of a position out 19 at the Exxon refinery, somebody who was calling himself or who 20 is known as a supervisor of supervisors? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What is that? 23 A. It's someone who essentially is directing the work of 24 other supervisors. 25 Q. All right. And do you know how many supervisors or WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005144 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 employees they would have under them? Page 81 2 A. I wouldn't know for sure. 3 Q. Do you know there was certain parts of his 4 deposition -- well, you don't know -- where there was at least 5 75 people under him? 6 A. I'm sure that's -- that very well could be. 7 Q. Let me turn to Page 57 of his deposition -- not 57. 8 Actually, Page 129 of his deposition -- excuse me, Mr . Larson. 9 I'm just trying to backtrack here. Page 128 of his deposition. 10 starting at Line 17, and let me just ask you about this. The 11 question was asked, "Do you remember Mundy being a contractor 12 out at the Exxon plant?" 13 He said, "They furnished labor for us. yes. 14 sir . " 15 16 they were ? Do you recall who Mundy was? Do you know who 17 A. Yes . 18 Q. Who were they? 19 A. They're a general contractor. They do work similar 20 to Brown & Root. 21 Q. And continuing the question, " And do you remember 22 about when they may have started?" 23 He said, "It had to have been sometime in the 24 '60s, late '60s." 25 "And they primarily just furnished workers?" WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005145 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 82 1 His answer was, "That's right." 2 And his question, "Working under the supervision 3 of Exxon? IT 4 "ANSWER: That's right. They had their own 5 foreman: 6 "QUESTION: Right. But they basically worked 7 under conditions that Exxon specified?" 8 His answer was, "That's right." 9 Do you agree with that? 10 A. It depends on what he meant by working under 11 conditions that Exxon specified. To me, that means that Exxon 12 assigned the work to be done, but they had their own foreman 13 and they were responsible for their own workmanship. 14 Q. Is that what he said there? 15 A. Well, again, "worked under conditions that Exxon 16 specified , " I'm not quite sure what that -17 Q. Okay. 18 A. -- means. 19 Q. Starting on Page -- this would be Page 143, Line 3. 20 And that starts up here (indicating), Mr. Larson, the question. 21 The question was, "When you talk about 22 contractors, contractors and Exxon employees working side by 23 side" -- "worked side by side quite often. Isn't that fair?" 24 "ANSWER: In the later years, yes. They started 25 in the '60s." WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005146 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 83 1 And then he said, "QUESTION: If it was 2 employees for the Mundy Company or the Brown & Root Company or 3 any other company, who was in charge of those workers' safety?" 4 The answer was, "Exxon assumed the 5 responsibility for them, but we hoped that they would have the 6 same type of safety programs, and that was a part of our 7 negotiations at the bidding of the contracts." 8 Then the question was, "Exxon assumed 9 responsibility for the safety of their contractors on their 10 plant ?" 11 His answer was, "That's right." 12 Did I read that correctly? 13 A. You read that correctly, but it's historically been a 14 practice that the contractors are responsible for their own 15 employees. I -- I wouldn't agree with that statement. 16 Q. So you don't agree with what Mr. Stovall said? 17 A. No. 18 Q. I'm sorry I had to kind of get over your shoulder. 19 Mr. Larson . It's just the logistics of the thing. 20 A. That's all right. 21 Q. This Larson Exhibit 39 -- and we got the right pages 22 on this one, thank goodness. I want to turn to Page 21 of this 23 deposition starting on Page 21, Line 7, and I'm going to go 24 ahead and read this and ask you a question. 25 It said, "QUESTION: During this time that you WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005147 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 were a laborer foreman, were you again working in close Page 84 2 proximity to any insulators?" 3 His answer was, "Yes, sometimes." 4 Then the question, "The insulators that you 5 would be working around, were they Exxon employees or were they 6 outside contractors?" 7 His answer was, "Both." 8 Do you agree with that? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And I want to go to Page 27 of Mr. Stovall's 11 deposition again on Line 2. 12 He said, "And then in 1969 you became a 13 supervisor ?" 14 His answer was, "I became a supervisor of 15 supervisors, yes." 16 And, again, did you tell us what your 17 understanding of what that meant was? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. A "supervisor of supervisors"? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Where -- as far as hierarchy in the plant out in the 22 field, where is that, if you know? I mean, where does that 23 rank in the hierarchy? 24 A. Well, it would depend. Each craft has supervisors 25 and then a supervisor of supervisors is what is typically WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005148 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 termed a superintendent. So pipefitters would have a Page 85 2 supervisor of supervisors. Laborers would have a supervisor of 3 supervisors and so forth for each craft. 4 Q. So evidently Mr. Stovall was promoted to that 5 position? 6 A. Yes, apparently. 7 Q. And then they continue -- and this is on Page 27, 8 Line 7, still with the question. 9 "At this time were you in an office or were you 10 out in the plant?" 11 "ANSWER: I was out in the plant with the 12 supervisors and the men." 13 And it says, "Tell me what you'd do on an 14 average day as the supervisor of supervisors." 15 "From the 1969 time frame through -- through -- 16 up to the '70 time frame, I did primarily turnaround 17 construction work which consisted of taking down units for 18 maintenance turnarounds." 19 "QUESTION: You weren't doing -- you weren't 20 actually doing this work yourself though, were you?" 21 "No. I was in the field though with them." 22 "QUESTION: Were the people you were 23 supervising, they were all Exxon employees?" 24 "ANSWER: Exxon and contractors at that time. 25 "QUESTION: Can you tell us the contractors WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005149 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 that you were supervising during that time period? Page 86 2 "ANSWER: It would be some of the same, S.I .P., 3 Incorporated; Diamond." 4 "Are there any others?" 5 "Brown & Root." 6 Did I read that correctly? 7 A. Yes . 8 Q. Do you agree with his testimony that he was 9 supervising both Exxon employees and contractor employees at 10 the same time? 11 A. Well, I think he -- what he meant by supervising , he 12 was directing the project and the contractor was performing the 13 work. 14 Q. Is that what he said? 15 A. I think that's what he said. 16 Q. All right. Page 64 of his deposition, starting at 17 Line 3, " QUESTION: All right. Now, when your insulators -- 18 are those Exxon employees?" 19 "ANSWER: In some cases Exxon employees, some 20 cases contractors." 21 "QUESTION: Are there times when Exxon 22 insulators are working in close proximity to contractors?" 23 "Yes." 24 "QUESTION: In your opinion, would the dust that 25 was generated from insulating work by Exxon insulators WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005150 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 87 1 potentially be around the contracted employees, based on what 2 you saw when you were out there?" 3 His answer was, "It could, yes." 4 Did I read that correctly? 5 A. Yes, but he's referring to insulators. He's not 6 talking about insulators and welders. 7 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, nonresponsive. 8 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Do you agree with his statement? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. I want to go to Page 65, starting at Line 20. And I 11 think we talked about this earlier, Mr. Larson. Let me just 12 ask you this. He said on the question, "Do they have a medical 13 department there?" 14 He said, "Yes, they did." 15 "QUESTION: While you were there? 16 "ANSWER: Uh-huh. 17 "QUESTION: Is that a yes? 18 "ANSWER: That's a yes. 19 "QUESTION: Did they have engineers working 20 there?" 21 His answer was, "Yes." 22 "QUESTION: Did they have industrial hygienists 23 working there?" 2 4 His answer was, "Later in my career they did. I 25 don't think in the early part of the career they had industrial WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005151 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 hygienists." Page 88 2 Now, again, he started out in 1947. Did they 3 have industrial hygienists from 1947 through, say. 1956 at the 4 Baytown refinery? 5 A. As I said earlier, I think that started at the 6 refinery in about 1950. 7 Q. Going further down on Page 66, Line 19, with the 8 question he said -- or he was asked, "Did you as a supervisor 9 of insulators at Exxon ever warn the contractors that came out 10 there about the potential dangers of being exposed to 11 asbestos ?" 12 His answer was, "No. I don't think I knew that 13 there was any danger to asbestos." 14 "QUESTION: When you say you -- you at the time 15 were a second line supervisor for Exxon; correct? 16 "ANSWER: Right." 17 Did he indicate that he didn't warn the 18 contractors about asbestos hazards and that he didn't know 19 about the danger to asbestos when he was a second line 20 supervisor for Exxon? 21 A. Well, just reading it, it says, "I don't think I 22 knew..." He doesn't say the time frame, and he could have been 23 saying I don't recall. I -- you know, I just don' t understand 24 what he meant by that -- that phrase. 25 MR. CAPPOLINO: All right. Take a quick break WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005152 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 so I can figure out -- Page 89 2 MR. MANNING: Sure. 3 (Recess from 11:25 to 11:29.) 4 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Mr. Larson, we were talking about 5 that deposition of Mr. Stovall in the Altimore case, but let me 6 just ask you some general questions here. 7 We've talked about respirators. And it's your 8 opinion that the Baytown refinery required their employees to 9 wear respirators, say, in the period 1960s/1970s? 10 A. Yes. It would depend on the exposure. Certainly not 11 every employee was wearing a respirator all the time, but in 12 the case where they were being exposed to a hazardous material, 13 it would be a requirement to wear respiratory protection. 14 Q. If Mr. Stovall said in the Altimore deposition that 15 he took -- or his testimony, that it was by choice if the 16 employees were going to wear respirators, would you disagree 17 with that? 18 A. Well, when you say, "by choice," I don't think 19 anybody was going to force somebody to wear a respirator. 20 Obviously, though, if it was a requirement for the job, they 21 wouldn't have been permitted to do the job if they weren't 22 wearing the required safety equipment. I mean, that's just a 23 fundamental safety policy. So, I mean, you could interpret 24 what he says, I think, to mean that if it was required, then 25 they would wear it. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005153 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 90 1 Q. Were you ever out at the refinery, Baytown refinery 2 or talked to any pot people out at the Baytown refinery that 3 actually saw the process where insulation was removed, cut or 4 sawed? 5 A. I've talked to industrial hygiene personnel there 6 that observed that, yes. 7 Q. And when you talked to him and you talked to him 8 about what he observed, what did he observe? And I'm talking 9 about whether or not any dust was created from that process. 10 A. Well, no, specifically there wouldn't have been 11 because they would have been required to wet the insulation -- 12 and this is either asbestos-containing or otherwise -- prior to 13 it being removed; and by wetting it, it would create 14 suppression of the dust. 15 Q. Okay. If you don't mind, I think I'm going to have 16 to go over your shoulder again and I apologize -17 A. That's fine. 18 Q. -- unless I have another copy of that -- 19 A. That's fine. 20 Q. -- deposition. 21 Is that okay, Mr. Larson? 22 A. Sure . 23 Q. I'm sorry. 24 Again, I'm sorry. I'm getting these page 25 numbers here, trying to figure that out. Okay. I'm sorry. I WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005154 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 91 1 want to ask you -- and I just asked you about whether or not 2 dust was created at certain times. And I want to point you to 3 the Altimore testimony of Mr. Stovall, Page 19, starting at 4 Line 2, and this is a question by Ms. Kyle, an attorney. 5 And it says, "QUESTION: Didn't the company or 6 didn't the safety man or your supervisor say something to the 7 effect that, "This is a dust mask. You should wear it when 8 it's dusty,' or when doing a certain activity in the plant?" 9 "ANSWER: They said that they were available. 10 They never did say -- except whenever you were unloading 11 catalyst, and then you were supposed to wear them because that 12 was -- you know, that was extremely dusty. The insulation was 13 dusty and it looked like snow, but they didn't require you to 14 wear them." 15 Did I read that correctly? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Do you agree with that testimony? 18 A. No, I wouldn't. 19 Q. Why don't you agree with that, sir? 20 A. Because it's basically in opposition to all the other 21 testimony that I've read and the discussions I've had with 22 safety and industrial hygiene personnel at Exxon. 23 Q. Do you know that Mr. Stovall's father was a Humble 24 man? I mean, he worked for the Humble company, too, or Exxon 25 and that it ran in his family? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005155 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. No . Page 92 2 Q. Okay. And, again, I told you that Mr. Stovall worked 3 at the Exxon refinery for 35 years? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. Okay. Was there a 1959 safety manual that Humble 6 refinery put out, an accident prevention manual? 7 A. I believe that's true. 8 Q. All right. And do you know if that was shown to the 9 employees, Exxon employees or contractor at the Exxon refinery 10 in Baytown? 11 A. It should have been. 12 Q. Did they talk about the hazards of asbestos in that 13 particular manual? 14 A. I don't know if they did or not. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. Probably not though. 17 Q. Why wouldn't they talk about asbestos dust in the 18 1959 manual? 19 A. Because that would have been addressed separately as 20 a procedure for minimizing dust exposure. 21 Q. All right. And, again, I hate to be talking over 22 your shoulder, but in that manual I'm just going to quote a 23 certain section of it where it says: "Dust respirators must be 24 used for all operations when there is an excessive amount of 25 dust in the air." WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005156 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 93 1 Do you recall that being in that manual? 2 A. That sounds like typical language. 3 Q. All right. How does a worker or a contract employee 4 know when there's an excessive amount of dust in the air? 5 A. When he's told by his supervisor or the safety 6 person. 7 Q. If you have 5 million particles per cubic foot of 8 dust in the air, can you see that? 9 A. When it comes to insulation, yes, you very well can. 10 Q. Can you see it all the time on other products? 11 A. If it was 100 percent asbestos, you probably 12 couldn't, but if it's part of an 85 percent/15 percent mixed 13 exposure of insulation, you very well could see it. 14 Q. Would it be an excessive amount of dust? 15 A. Yes . 16 Q. All right. It wouldn't be a haze. It would be -- 17 what would it look like? 18 A. It would be dusty. 19 Q. And when you say, "dusty," what do you mean? 20 A. Well, if you saw visible dust there, that would 21 certainly be an indication that you should be wearing a 22 respirator. 23 Q. What is a Type A dust? What is that. Type A dust? 24 A. I don't know what you are referring to there. 25 Q. Well, that was in the Humble refinery accident WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005157 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 prevention manual in 1959 -- Page 94 2 A. Okay. So they had classifications for dust. 3 Q. Let me finish my question. 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. That was in the 1959 safety manual. Humble Refinery 6 Accident Prevention Manual, where it mentions Type A dust. Do 7 you know what Type A dusts are? 8 A. No. 9 Q. It mentions Type A dusts being silica, asbestos. coke 10 and cement. Does that help you any? 11 A. It would tell me that that would be considered to be 12 a fairly high hazard potential, those particular materials. 13 Q. But it says further in that accident prevention - - or 14 that safety manual, it says: "The filters" -- talking about 15 respirators -- "provided are approved for all dusts, both toxic 16 dusts such as lead, cadmium, arsenic, et cetera, as well as 17 Type A dusts, silica, asbestos, coke, cement." 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. Why didn't they include asbestos as a toxic dust in 20 that manual? 21 A. I think they just -- they did. 22 Q. With the Type A? 23 A. Type A, correct. 24 Q. And that means toxic now? 25 A. Well, silica, yeah, right, in the same category. I WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005158 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 would say that is a toxic dust. Page 95 2 Q. So back in 1959 when this manual wasput out, Exxon 3 knew that asbestos was a toxic dust? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. And, in fact, during that timeshould all 6 petrochemical refineries in the United States have known that 7 asbestos was a toxic dust? 8 MR. LYNCH: Objection, form. 9 A. I would say that asbestos, to the extent that it was 10 being handled as a neater -- 100 percent material, yes, they 11 should have known. 12 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Should Crown Petroleum in 1959, 13 which was out in Pasadena, have known at that time that 14 asbestos was a toxic dust? 15 DEFENSE COUNSEL: Objection, form. 16 A. Again, you need to make the distinction between 17 asbestos versus an asbestos-containing insulation because 18 you're talking in one case about 100 percent of a material and 19 in the other about a 15 percent material. 20 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) All right. 21 A. So what -- and -- if I can finish, and it was in '65 22 when Selikoff came out and found that there were actually 23 hazardous exposures to people handling asbestos-containing 24 insulation, so by '65 -- and I think I've testified to that 25 earlier -- that would have been a key date. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005159 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 96 1 Q. Well, let me -- I'll put it in reference for you. 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. The Bonsib report which came out in the '30s -4 A. Right. 5 Q. -- the asbestos-containing materials that it talks 6 about in the Bonsib report, those would have been toxic 7 asbestos products? 8 A. Well, actually, in the Bonsib report, he's referring 9 to asbestos because asbestos itself was being handled and. yes. 10 he recognizes asbestos as being toxic. 11 Q. Okay. Do you recall stating in a 1996 deposition 12 when the question was asked to you, if the concentration of 13 asbestos fibers were 5 fibers per cc, you wouldn't be able to 14 see that in the air? Do you recall giving that testimony? 15 A. Yes, I do. 16 Q. Do you agree with that? 17 A. Yes . 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. As asbestos though. Okay. You said -- you didn' t 20 say 15 percent asbestos in insulation. 21 Q. Would you agree there's lots of pipe covering out at 22 the Baytown plant? 23 A. Yes . 24 Q. Do you know how much, say, in the '60s? 25 A. Oh, I'd say hundreds of miles. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005160 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 97 1 Q. Mr. Stovall in his testimony in that case, the 2 Altimore case, said that he read that there was about 600,000 3 miles of pipe at that plant. 4 A. I think that's possible. 5 Q. He said asbestos was used in heat situations ; one was 6 magnesium and the other was Superex. Do you recall those 7 products ? I think you talked about magnesium. 8 A. Magnesium. I'm not familiar with Superex. 9 Q. He also said the multi-craft system started in the 10 '56 time frame. Before that, insulators did the insulation. 11 Do you agree with that statement? 12 A. It's my recollection that insulators have 13 traditionally done the insulation. 14 Q. All right. Do you know what the multi-craft system 15 was ? 16 A. I think that came along later where people were 17 trained to perform multiple types of crafts. It gave the 18 refinery some flexibility. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. But when they did a craft, it was a distinct craft. 21 It's not like they would be as a pipefitter removing 22 insulation. They would still just do pipefitting and another 23 craft would do the insulation. So it was in terms of general 24 training , not the specific work. And by the way, that didn't 25 apply to contractors. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005161 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 98 1 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, nonresponsive. 2 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) I want to turn you again to 3 Mr. Stovall's testimony in Altimore. It's on Page 50 and 4 starting at Line 2 or Line 3. The question was put to him, "Do 5 you recall when you first became aware of any potential health 6 hazard associated with asbestos?" 7 His answer was, "It was in the latter part, 8 middle to latter part of the '70s." 9 Did I read that correctly? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. If that's true and he didn't know about the potential 12 health hazards associated with asbestos until the middle to 13 late part of the '70s and he had started there in the '40s, 14 wouldn't that lead you to believe that Exxon did not tell him 15 about the hazards of asbestos during that period of time? 16 MR. MANNING: Objection, form. 17 A. No. I wouldn't think so. I think it's probably the 18 fact that -- that that was a long time ago and he may not have 19 gotten his dates accurate. 20 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Okay. Would you like to sit down 21 and talk with Mr. Stovall about what he testified to? 22 MR. MANNING: Objection, form. 23 A. I don't know. Well, I suppose I -- I would. I don't 24 know. I mean, I -- I'm not saying that I'm disagreeing with 25 what he said. I think he may have gotten some -- some of his WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005162 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 99 1 information not totally accurate. It would be interesting to 2 talk to some other people with a similar work history to see if 3 they agree or disagree. 4 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) And so if you have a copy of 5 these depositions that you can now read that I've attached to 6 this deposition, do you think what you may do before you 7 testify at trial, if you're called in this case, is try to talk 8 to some of those people that worked with Mr. Stovall to see if 9 what he's saying is true or not? 10 A. I'd have to see who was available. 11 Q. Would you try to do that? 12 A. I may. 13 Q. If you do that, will you let counsel for Exxon know 14 so I will know? 15 A. Certainly. 16 Q. All right. I want to ask you further -- and going to 17 that line of questions about when he talked about being aware 18 of asbestos hazards, they asked him another question. And 19 this, again, is on Page 51, Line 5, with the question, "All 20 right. Were you aware earlier that you should avoid exposures, 21 excessive exposure to asbestos?" 22 His answer was, "Yes. I'm sure that I was 23 aware, but I thought, you know, that if I didn't choose to wear 2 4 the safety equipment -- and I think that's what my people 25 thought, too -- I'd just blow it out of my nose and -- when I'd WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005163 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 100 1 get through in the afternoon and that everything would be all 2 right, you know, and take a good shower and wash it off. I 3 didn't think that there was going to be any lasting effects 4 from it." 5 Did I read that correctly? 6 A. Yes, but I'm not quite sure what he's saying. 7 Q. Did they have -- do you know whether or not there 8 were Goulds pumps, G-O-U-L-D, pumps out at the Baytown 9 refinery? 10 A. I'm not certain about that, but I'm sure that there 11 very well could have been. 12 Q. Why do you think there very well may could have been? 13 A. They were in very widespread use within the refining 14 and petrochemical industry. So, you know, I'm certainly not 15 going to say they weren't in use. 16 Q. There's also discussion here on Page 27 about a 17 safety manual that was shown to him at the deposition, and let 18 me just read this to you and ask you about this. It's on 19 Page 59, starting at Line 9. 20 It says, "QUESTION: I want to talk to you about 21 Exhibit 1 that's been attached to your deposition, the safety 22 manual that you were shown by one of the lawyers in this case." 23 "ANSWER: Okay." 24 And the question was, "Have you ever seen that 25 manual prior to today, sir?" WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005164 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 101 1 He said, "In this form, certainly not." 2 Now, again, I didn't recall what you said. Were 3 the employees, like the supervisors, given copies of any of the 4 safety manuals that were put out by Exxon? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. All right. We talked a little bit earlier about how 7 many people he might have been responsible for, that is, 8 Mr. Stovall, when he worked there. And I want to direct you to 9 Page 60, Line 25, going to Page 61 with the question. 10 The question was, "At the highest point in your 11 career with Exxon, how many employees would be under your 12 supervision on any job?" 13 He said, "ANSWER: On catalytic cracking units 14 where I was an overall, there would be some 6 or 700, plus a 15 few contractors." 16 "QUESTION: So you would be directly responsible 17 for supervising jobs with 6 to 700 workers, plus contractors?" 18 "Yeah, but I just supervised the supervisors. I 19 didn't supervise the employees." 20 "Okay. As a supervisor of supervisors then, the 21 total number of employees that were under your control, your 22 direct chain of command, it is fair to say there would be 6 to 23 700 people?" 24 "There has on occasion, on a big fluid catalytic 25 cracker turnaround, yeah." WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005165 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 102 1 So it appears that he was taking care of a lot 2 of people; is that correct? 3 A. Well, during the period that he was responsible for 4 turnaround, that number would be accurate. 5 Q. All right. We've talked earlier about the section 6 where he learned about asbestos or when he said in the mid-'70s 7 or latter part of the '70s, and I want to direct you to Page 64 8 of the Altimore testimony, starting at Line 16. 9 The question was, "When did you learn -- how did 10 you learn that asbestos could cause cancer? Was it somebody 11 from Exxon's medical department that came out and told you?" 12 He said, "No. I actually heard about it on the 13 media." 14 "QUESTION: When you say you finally heard about 15 asbestos causing cancer on the media, do you mean on the T.V. 16 or radio? 17 "ANSWER: I read it in the paper. I think it 18 was some trial, but I don't really -- I don't remember how I 19 got word of it, that there was a danger of cancer from 20 asbestos." 21 And then further on Page 64, the question is 22 asked to him, "When did you first learn that asbestos could 23 cause a disease that could kill? No matter what the disease 24 was, whether it was cancer or something else, when did you 25 learn that asbestos caused diseases that could kill people?" WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005166 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 103 1 "ANSWER: The latter part of the '80s." 2 Did I read that correctly? 3 A. Yes, but I disagree with it. Also, it's inconsistent 4 with what he said prior to this. 5 Q. And what did he say prior to this? 6 A. And prior to this he said in the '70s. 7 Q. But I thought the question about the '70s was when he 8 learned about the hazards of asbestos. Is that the same thing 9 in your opinion? 10 A. I would think so. 11 Q. All right. So whether it be the '70s, middle, latter 12 part of the '70s, or learning about it in the '80s, did he 13 state that he learned about some of this information from the 14 media? 15 A. He did. 16 Q. Did he ever say he learned any of that from Exxon 17 prior to the '70s or '80s? 18 A. He didn't, but it's -- that's -- doesn't agree with 19 anything I've heard from any other person I've talked to. 20 Q. All right. Why would he make these statements if he 21 was supervising 600 people at the Baytown refinery? 22 MR. MANNING: Objection, form. 23 A. First of all, that was only on turnaround and that 24 only occurred, I think he said, for a period of a year or two. 25 I have no idea what his motives are. I have no idea WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005167 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 104 1 whatsoever. I don't know if he has a lawsuit pending or if 2 there's some other reason, but it doesn't agree with anything 3 I've ever -- I've ever learned about or -- or discussed with 4 other people. 5 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Okay. I want to ask you about 6 the medical information. You told me about doctors being at 7 the plant, Exxon, about them doing physicals or pulmonary 8 function or chest x-rays for asbestos. Do you recall that 9 testimony? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did you ever learn whether or not the doctors at the 12 Exxon refinery in Baytown ever told their employees about the 13 asbestos hazards or the hazards of asbestos? 14 A. Yes. That was part of their job. 15 Q. And when did they start telling the workers about the 16 hazards of asbestos? 17 A. It's my understanding, according to Jim Hammond's 18 testimony and his memos, that that was in place when he joined 19 the company in 1947. 20 Q. All right. I want to direct you back to 21 Mr. Stovall's testimony on that matter where he talks about 22 being -- x-rays being taken. And he says -- and this is on 23 Page 67, Line 6, beginning the question, "At any time you had 24 either a chest x-ray done or a pulmonary function test done by 25 a company doctor at any time, did any of those doctors tell WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005168 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 105 1 you, "We' re concerned about asbestos exposure at the plant and 2 that's why we're doing this"? 3 His answer was, "No." 4 Did I read that correctly? 5 A. Yes, but I disagree with that. 6 Q. That's not consistent with what you just told me 7 about doctors informing employees; is that correct? 8 A. I would say for every Mr. Stovall's testimony, you d 9 probably find 1,000 other employees that would state exactly 10 the opposite. 11 Q. Name those 1,000 employees for me. 12 A. Well, I'd say you could pick some at random. 13 Q. Well, who are they at random that you can tell me 14 about that I can talk to or take their deposition? 15 A. Well, I can name myself, but I'm sure there's others. 16 Q. Other than yourself, can you identify anybody else by 17 name? 18 A. Not -- not as I sit here today. 19 Q. All right. And did you ever have a chest x-ray or 20 pulmonary function study test done? 21 A. Yes . 22 Q. And when did you have that done? 23 A. Let's see. From '76 through '78. 24 Q. And was that at Exxon? 25 A. Yes . WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005169 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 Q. And what location? Page 106 2 A. The Houston chemical plant. 3 Q. Where was that? Was that Baytown or where was that? 4 A. It's on the ship channel or was on the ship channel. 5 Q. Why did you have that done? 6 A. It was part of standard medical surveillance. 7 Q. Did you have any asbestos disease? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Who was your doctor that did that; do you know? 10 A. It would have been -- they sent us to the 11 headquarter's office in Houston for that. It would have been 12 Dr. Lione , L-I-O-N-E. 13 Q. Going back to that same information about knowledge 14 of asbestos or when he was informed about it -- and this was on 15 Page 70, starting at Line 17 of his deposition -- the question 16 was, "Well, let me ask you this. At any time while you were 17 working for Exxon, not now, but while you were working for 18 them, did anybody ever inform you that asbestos diseases, like 19 asbestosis or lung cancer or mesothelioma -- did anybody ever 20 inform you that those diseases were what's called latent 21 diseases that took many, many years to develop?" 22 His answer was, "No, never." 23 Is that inconsistent with what you know? 24 A. Absolutely. 25 Q. What did the doctors, as far as you know, tell WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005170 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 employees about latent disease, if you know? Page 107 2 A. Well, I'm -- I'm sure they talked about asbestos 3 specifically and asbestos was a latent disease. And I'm sure 4 they informed them of the fibrosis, the asbestosis, and at 5 least beginning in some of the latter years, the fact that it 6 could cause cancer. 7 Q. Going further down to his deposition -- and, again. 8 this is on Page 71, Line 23 -- the question was, "Let me ask 9 you about specific precautions taken around asbestos-containing 10 pipe covering and asbestos-containing block. Did there ever 11 come a time when there were specific precautions taken with 12 asbestos- containing pipe covering or block to reduce the dust 13 that was created when it was cut?" 14 His answer was, "Not really. They just 15 encouraged you to wear dust respirators." 16 "QUESTION: Would that have been later in the 17 '70s?" 18 "ANSWER: Uh-huh." 19 "Is that a yes?" 20 "ANSWER: That's a yes." 21 Is that inconsistent with your knowledge? 22 A. Absolutely. When I was working for Exxon, we had 23 specific procedures in place. 24 Q. Further on Page -- on this same page, Mr. Larson, 72, 25 Line 11, the question was, "Well, let me ask you about prior to WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005171 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 108 1 the time when you became aware that asbestos was hazardous. Do 2 you ever recall, let's say, prior to the late '70s anybody 3 wetting down pipe covering before they would cut it to reduce 4 the dust ? If 5 His answer was, "No." 6 "QUESTION: Do you ever recall anybody wetting 7 down pipe covering when it was removed to try to reduce the 8 dust when it was removed?" 9 His answer was, "No." 10 Did I read that correctly? 11 A. Yes. And, again, it's inconsistent with everything 12 that I' ve learned over time. 13 Q. You testified earlier that it was your understanding 14 the procedures were to wet down the insulation? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. How would they wet down the insulation? 17 A. Using fire hoses from the fire monitors in the 18 refinery. I think -- let me clarify that. In some cases where 19 you had hot equipment, that was not practiced because you'd 20 create steam, which would be a safety hazard. 21 Q. Did you ever see them doing that out there at 22 Baytown? 23 A. At Baytown specifically, I don't recall. I may have. 24 but I can 't -- I don't have a specific recollection. 25 Q. Okay. Do you recall whether or not at the Baytown WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005172 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 109 1 refinery any -- at any time or learning from anybody that 2 craftsmen would take off insulation with sledge hammers? 3 A. No. They typically would use a hacksaw blade to cut 4 it with. 5 Q. Mr. Stovall's deposition testimony, again, this is 6 Page 72, starting at Line 21. The question was put to him, 7 "Did pipe covering or block insulation that had to be removed 8 off a pipe or a flange or a boiler or anything -- did you ever 9 see that removed in a way that created dust?" 10 "ANSWER: That's what I think I said awhile ago. 11 I might not have said it, but we really wanted to choose 12 insulators to do stuff where we were going to take off any 13 great amount of insulation. Our craftsmen would take it off 14 with sledgehammers or anything they could get their hands on to 15 get it out of the way and it did create dust. Yes, it did. 16 "QUESTION: Well, when a craftsman had to remove 17 insulation with a sledgehammer, explain to the ladies and 18 gentlemen of the jury what that would do to their clothes, for 19 example. 20 "ANSWER: Well, there would be visible signs of 21 dust on them at times, yes." 22 Did I read that correctly? 23 A. Yes, but I -- again, I think that's pretty much over 24 the top. 25 Q. And when you say, "over the top," what do you mean? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005173 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 110 1 A. It sounds like he's almost saying that they 2 intentionally tried to create dust rather than suppress it. 3 That's my opinion. 4 Q. All right. And so do you think that was his 5 intention, Mr. Stovall's intention when removing insulation, to 6 create dust as a supervisor rather than reduce dust? 7 A. Well, from reading his testimony, it almost appears 8 to be, but I -- I can't speak for him. 9 Q. All right. Do you know if anybody, any employees 10 that were working in that time frame, Exxon employees at the 11 Baytown refinery in the '60s and '70s, ever had an 12 asbestos-related disease? Do you know any information about 13 that? 14 A. According to Jim Hammond's testimony up through 1978 15 when he retired, there were no reported instances of any 16 asbestos-related disease. 17 Q. Do you know that Mr. Stovall was diagnosed with 18 asbestosis? 19 A. I didn't know that. 20 Q. In his testimony on Page -- andwe'll go to this- 21 he said that his friends who worked with him had 22 asbestos-related diseases, some of them. Do you know that? 23 A. No. 24 Q. I'm going to turn yourattention toPage 78, Line 3 25 of Mr. Stovall's deposition. This is a question by WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005174 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 111 1 Mr. Chandler. The question was, "Mr. Stovall, other than 2 Louise Altimore, who had mesothelioma in this case, do you know 3 anybody else from the Exxon refinery that came down with 4 mesothelioma?" 5 "ANSWER: Not from the Exxon refinery, no." 6 "QUESTION: Okay. How many of the people that 7 you used to work with, if you can give us a ballpark, do you 8 have personal knowledge of that came down with asbestosis or 9 lung cancer?" 10 His answer, "Probably somewhere around 40 or 11 50 . " 12 "Okay. Were any of those other men, men like 13 you who were supervisors for most of their career?" 14 "ANSWER: Right. One of them was my boss." 15 Did I read that correctly? 16 A. Yes. But, I mean, is this something that's been 17 medically, you know, certified or is it just his supposition? 18 I mean, I'd have to have more information to really understand 19 the significance of -- of these numbers. 20 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, nonresponsive. 21 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Did I read that correctly? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And that doesn't comport with your knowledge about 2 4 Mr. Hammond not knowing of any asbestos-related diseases out of 25 that plant? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005175 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 112 1 A. No, it doesn't. And I believe Exxon has done some 2 fairly extensive epidemiology work regarding their workforce, 3 and it's my understanding that the incidence of 4 asbestos-related disease is less than the general population. 5 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, nonresponsive. 6 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) You had mentioned earlier that 7 there was air sampling done out at the refinery, at Exxon, at 8 Baytown refinery? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q.Do you know whether or not they actually -- people 11 came out there and put devices on employees to see what they 12 were exposed to? 13 A. It depends on the time frame because the sampling 14 methodology changed in the late '60s and early '70s. Prior to 15 1970, they generally did what was called area sampling with 16 like the midget impinger method; and beginning in about 1970, 17 they started actually doing fiber counts with the membrane 18 filter method. 19 Q. I want to ask you a couple more -- a few more from 20 the Altimore Stovall deposition. Page 79, Line 15, another 21 question to Mr. Stovall, "Did you ever at any safety meeting 22 ever tell -- ever either tell anybody or hear from anybody at 23 Exxon that asbestos was something that could kill you?" 24 The answer was, "No." 25 Do you agree with that testimony? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005176 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 113 1 A. No. And the fact that he is consistently giving the 2 testimony that he is that Exxon did absolutely nothing about 3 asbestos tells me that he's got his own agenda. 4 Q. But you don't know what that agenda is? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Okay. Are you going to try to find out what his 7 agenda was? 8 A. I suppose, if I'm asked to. 9 Q. And if you are asked to do that and you find out what 10 you think his agenda was, will you let the Exxon lawyer know so 11 I can know? 12 A. Certainly. 13 Q. All right. Further on Page 79, Line 20 it says. 14 "When you say the immediate danger, I want to know what you 15 mean to i mply to the jury. Was it that asbestos was just like 16 any other dust, that you just had to not breathe in a whole lot 17 because you would get sick that day? Characterize that for 18 us." 19 "ANSWER: It fell in the mashed finger, stumped 20 toe, you know." 21 Did I read that correctly? 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. And was that Exxon's policy that asbestos fell in the 24 mashed finger, stumped toe area? 25 A. No. And it's inconsistent with everything I've -- WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005177 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 I've learned over time. Page 114 2 Q. All right. Going down to Page 81 -- and this was 3 Line 9 of his deposition or testimony, and I think this goes 4 back to the monitoring I asked you about earlier. The question 5 says, "Did you ever, let's say, prior to the late '70s, '77 6 specifically, since that's when Mr. Altimore left Exxon , did 7 you ever witness anybody from the industrial hygiene or safety 8 department come up to an employee and put a device on their 9 lapel when they were working with insulation to try to measure 10 the air for asbestos?" 11 His answer was, "No." 12 Did I read that correctly? 13 A. Yes, and that's incorrect because I -- Eric Lebrocq 14 had a complete dossier of asbestos measurements when I was 15 there in the '70s. 16 Q. Where are those? 17 A. I assume they're at the refinery. 18 Q. Baytown refinery? 19 A. I would suppose. 20 Q. Do you know if Exxon has a retention policy on its 21 documents? 22 A. I'm fairly sure they do. 23 Q. Do you know how long they keep documents, say , like 24 these documents you've just told me about? 25 A. I think probably 20 years. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005178 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 115 1 Q. All right. So do you know if they're still around. 2 those documents? 3 A. I don't know. 4 Q. Further on -- and this is going to Line 17 of Page 81 5 with the question, "In the 30 years, then, you were at Exxon 6 from 1947 to 1977, when Mr. Altimore quit working for Exxon, is 7 it a fair statement that you had never witnessed a single time 8 anybody put a personal air sampling device on any employee 9 while they were working around asbestos?" 10 His answer was, "No." 11 Did I read that correctly? 12 A. Right. And, again, that's over the top. 13 Q. And "over the top" meaning what in your parlance? 14 A. It's completely out of the realm of probability or 15 possibility. 16 Q. Other than the insulators, Mr. Larson, do you know 17 whether or not Exxon ever conducted classes to other trades 18 about how to reduce dust when it came to asbestos insulation? 19 A. Could you read that again, please? 20 Q. Yeah. Let me ask you this first. Do you know 21 whether or not Exxon at the Baytown refinery or any other 22 refinery ever conducted classes to insulators to teach them how 23 to reduce dust when removing or applying insulation? 24 A. For their own employees, I know they did. For 25 contractors, that would have been the responsibility of the WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005179 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 contractor. Page 116 2 Q. All right. Do you know if any other crafts were 3 given that same type of instruction with regard to asbestos 4 insulation? 5 A. I'm sure laborers would have been included with the 6 insulators, and I'm not positive, but they could have included 7 other crafts. But at a minimum, I know they would have 8 provided it to insulators and laborers. 9 Q. How about welders? 10 A. They could have. I don't know that for a fact 11 though. 12 Q. How about pipefitters? 13 A. Again, they could have other crafts. 14 Q. How about boilermakers? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. All right. Were the -- do you know if the 17 supervisors at Baytown refinery or the employees out there were 18 ever told about T.L.V.'s or P.E.L.'s for asbestos exposure? 19 A. Yes. That would have been covered in safety 20 training 21 Q. Tell us how that would have been covered in safety 22 training 23 A. Well, in the early days, again, I mentioned the 24 medical department would have reviewed the hazards of asbestos 25 and the fact that there were exposure limits and if you WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005180 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 exceeded those exposure limits you could incur an Page 117 2 asbestos-related disease. 3 Later on when OSHA came in, you had specific 4 training requirements under the asbestos regulations. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. After that, you had the hazard communication 7 standard, so there were formalized procedures that got more 8 sophisticated over time. 9 Q. Do you know whether or not any of the employees at 10 Exxon -- and, again, I'm talking about employees now -- were 11 ever told about the Texas 1958 regulations, the threshold limit 12 values for asbestos? And I'm talking about the specific 13 regulation. Do you know if they were taught -- they told them 14 about the Texas regulation? 15 A. Well, the Texas regulation established a threshold 16 limit value that specified the 5 million particles per cubic 17 foot standard. It didn't get into training requirements. It 18 required companies to maintain levels below 5 million particles 19 per cubic foot. So that combined with, as I mentioned, the 20 shop procedures that would have addressed installing and 21 removing insulation would have provided that -- the employees 22 with training on how to minimize exposure to keep it within 23 that threshold limit value. So the Texas standard itself was 24 just a limit. The Exxon procedures for removing and installing 25 insulation would have been such to keep their exposure below WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005181 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 that threshold limit value. Page 118 2 Q. Was the Bonsib report -- and I may have asked you 3 this and I apologize -- was that ever circulated to the Exxon 4 employees, contractors, supervisors at the Baytown refinery? 5 A. I -- I -- I don't know. 6 Q. All right. Page 30 -- I'm sorry. Page -- Page 85, 7 Line 3 of Mr. Stovall's deposition, I want to ask you this, and 8 I think this goes back to the T.L.V.'s or P.E.L.'s with the 9 question starting on Line 3. 10 "To this very day" -- and the question is, "To 11 this very day, Mr. Stovall, have you ever heard -- well, let me 12 ask you this because you had asked about it in your 1996 13 deposition. Prior to your deposition given in 1996, the whole 14 time you were working for Exxon had you ever heard the term 15 "threshold limit value?" 16 His answer was, "No." 17 Did I read that correctly? 18 A. Yes. And, again, it's inconsistent with my 19 knowledge. 20 Q. All right. It says, "The whole time" -- continuing, 21 "The whole time you were working for Exxon, had you ever heard 22 the term 'permissible exposure limit'?" 23 His answer was, "No." 2 4 Did I read that correctly? 25 A. Yes. And, again, it's inconsistent with my WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005182 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 knowledge Page 119 2 Q. And going down to Page -- that same page, starting on 3 Line 15 or Line 16, the question was, "During the entire time 4 you worked for Exxon, did you ever hear that there was a 5 threshold limit value for exposure to asbestos?" 6 His answer was, "No." 7 Did I read that correctly? 8 A. Yes, and my response is the same. 9 Q. And then further, "QUESTION: During the whole time 10 you worked for Exxon, did you ever hear there was a permissible 11 exposure limit that related to asbestos?" 12 His answer was, "No." 13 Did I read that correctly? 14 A. Ditto. 15 Q. And, again, that doesn't comport with your 16 understanding? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. All right. Do you know whether or not employees or 19 contractors at the Exxon refinery were ever told about the term 20 "pneumoconiosis"? 21 A. Do I? 22 Q. Yeah. 23 A. Yes . 24 Q. When were they told about that? 25 A. That would have been beginning, again, in 1947, at WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005183 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 120 1 least, when they would have been given medical surveillance. 2 Q. Okay. On Page 87 of his deposition, again I want to 3 ask you about respirators. And starting -- I believe this 4 would be on Line 19, Page 87. 5 "Now, what Mr. Bonsib writes in his report, is 6 that the kind of information that was shared with you in the 7 safety meetings, sir?" 8 His answer was, "We were concerned about them 9 working in dusty places without respirators, but it was at 10 their option as to whether they wore the respirators or not." 11 "QUESTION: There was never a rule or 12 requirement or mandate that employees wear a dust respirator?" 13 "Oh, yeah. It was in the safety manual that you 14 showed us awhile ago, you know." 15 "QUESTION: Well, what do you mean, it was at 16 their option, sir?" 17 And then he goes down to the answer here and 18 then he starts again on Line 20 with a question: 19 "Well, was the reason fellows would put on a 20 dust mask more of a comfort issue than anything else?" 21 His answer was, "At their option, I guess it 22 would be, yes." 23 Do you agree or disagree with that statement? 24 A. I disagree. I think, again, this is over the top and 25 it's just totally inconsistent with my knowledge. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005184 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 121 1 Q. All right. At the Exxon refinery, Mr. Larson, was 2 there any insulation of 12-inch steam lines occurring there at 3 any time in the '60s and '70s? 4 A. I don't know that for a fact, but I think there was a 5 good possibility that there was. 6 Q. If Mr. Stovall said that that process was going on 7 during the '60s and '70s, would you have any reason to disagree 8 with him? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Do you know whether or not insulating 750-pound 11 cracking coil accumulators was occurring out at the Exxon 12 Baytown refinery in the '60s and '70s? 13 A. I have no knowledge of that. 14 Q. If Mr. Stovall -15 A. I think what you're talking about is examples from 16 the Bonsib report. 17 Q. That's correct. 18 A. Right. Well, the technology certainly had changed 19 from the 1930s to the 1970s. I think you'd really have to ask 20 a process engineer whether that technology was still in place 21 40 years after Bonsib did his report. 22 Q. Well, if Mr. Stovall said he personally saw those 23 operations going on when he was there, would you tend to not 24 agree with him because of your disagreements with other parts 25 of his testimony? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005185 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 122 1 A. It would certainly raise a question in my mind. 2 Q. But as a person that was in industrial hygiene and 3 worked for Exxon, you don't know whether or not there was 4 750-pound cracking insulation going on at coil accumulators in 5 the '60s and '70s at the refinery? 6 A. I'd say there's certainly a possibility, but I have 7 no knowledge that there was. 8 Q. Do you know whether or not there was any insulating 9 treating plant acid suction lines at the Exxon refinery in the 10 '60s and '70s? 11 A. Same answer. Possibility, but I have no direct 12 knowledge. 13 Q. Do you know whether or not there was any insulating 14 cracking coil hot oil lines going on at Exxon Baytown refinery 15 in the '60s and '70s? 16 A. Same answer. 17 Q. You do know that there was dismantling and removing 18 of old insulation that occurred at the Exxon Baytown refinery 19 in the '60s and '70s. Would that be a correct statement? 20 A. I'd agree with that. 21 MR. CAPPOLINO: Go off the record for a second. 22 (Recess from 12:11 to 12:23.) 23 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Mr. Larson, we've been talking 24 about Mr. Stovall, and obviously, you know, throughout the 25 deposition I've read you parts of his testimony and you've WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005186 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 123 1 disagreed with him and said he's over the top and things like 2 that, but I wanted to show you this. 3 In this Altimore case, this oral deposition - 4 and actually it was on Page 6 of that deposition before the 5 deposition began, but after he was sworn in, it indicates here 6 that he had his personal attorney with him and it also 7 indicates on this page that Mr. Stovall is not appearing here 8 voluntarily. He's appearing here in response to a subpoena. 9 Did I read that correctly? 10 MR. MANNING: Objection, form. 11 A. I believe. 12 MR. CAPPOLINO : Basis for the objection? 13 MR. MANNING: The introductory paragraph before 14 your question. 15 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) All right. And after he's been 16 sworn in. does he say, "This is" -- well, this is his attorney 17 "This is Mr. Patronella with the Williams Bailey Law Firm. I': 18 Mr. Stovall's personal attorney. And Mr. Stovall is not 19 appearing here voluntarily. He's appearing here in response t 20 a subpoena." 21 Did I read that correctly? 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. Do you know what a subpoena is? 24 A. Yes . 25 Q. And do you know -- I know you're not a lawyer. Have WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005187 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 you ever been subpoenaed? Page 124 2 A. No. 3 Q. Do you know whether or not a subpoena would mean 4 they're appearing somewhere voluntarily for trial testimony? 5 A. I don't think so. 6 Q. It also indicates here that he's -- has prostate 7 cancer . Do you see that? 8 A. Yes . 9 Q. Mr. Patronella, his lawyer, asked Mr. Stovall, he 10 says -- and this is on Line 17, Page 6 -- "Do you have anything 11 you want to say, Mr. Stovall?" And then the witness responds 12 to that. Do you see that? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And let me just go ahead and read this and just ask 15 you a question. He says, the witness, "No, other than Mike and 16 I both hate that it has come to this, to have to give 17 testimony. I'm an Exxon employee. My dad was an Exxon 18 employee. I was born in an Exxon home in Hearne, Texas and 19 started my career there with them in 1947 after I came back 20 from the Marine Corps and transferred to the refinery. 21 "I'm caught between two desires. You know, I 22 want to be loyal to my company, but I also have known the 23 person that's name has been mentioned here. He and I graduated 24 from the same high school, 10 years apart, but from the same 25 high school. He graduated probably in the '33-'34 time frame WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005188 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 and I graduated in the '44 time frame." Page 125 2 Did I read that correctly? 3 A. Yes . 4 Q. Further he says, "So all of these things were taken 5 into consideration before I ever signed the deposition. And as 6 I told Troy, you know, when I agreed to the truthful statements 7 in that deposition, that more than likely it would call for a 8 subpoena . And I was hoping that something that they could do 9 would not cause that to happen, but situations or conditions 10 above their control did cause it to happen. That's it." 11 Did I read that correctly? 12 A. Yes, I believe so. I'm not quite sure that I 13 understand what he's saying, though. 14 Q. Well, I guess, I want to really focus on the fact 15 that he says, as I told you before, he's an Exxon employee. 16 His dad was an Exxon employee and he was born in an Exxon home 17 in Hearne, Texas and that he has loyalty to the company. Did 18 he say that? 19 A. Yes . 20 Q. Mr. Larson, do you know if at the Exxon refinery in 21 the '60s or '70s there were showers providec for employees? 22 A. Yes, there were. 23 Q. Do you know what the showers were for? 24 A. They were to give the employee an opportunity to 25 clean up before he left the work site. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005189 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 126 1 Q. And why to clean up before they left the work site? 2 A. It was -- made sense from a hygiene standpoint. 3 Obviously , a refinery is not a bakery or an ice cream plant. 4 You do tend to get dirty and grimy if you're doing hands-on 5 work. So the company offered that as a means for people to 6 clean up before they left work. 7 Q. Do you know when the showers were provided to 8 employees out at the refinery in Baytown, what year? 9 A. The specific date, I don't know. 10 Q. Do you know if it was in the '60s? 11 A. I believe it was prior to that, probably in the 12 1950s, if not before. 13 Q. Do you know if any reason that Exxon provided those 14 was to prevent household exposure to asbestos from the work 15 clothing of its employees? 16 MR. MANNING: Objection, form. 17 A. I don't think they had knowledge at that time 18 specific to household exposure. 19 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) If Mr. Stovall said in the 20 Altimore case that the showers were provided more for 21 convenience and cleaning and not from a safety standpoint. 22 would you agree or disagree with that? 23 A. I'd disagree with that. Certainly by the -- at least 24 by the '60s there was some concern about aromatic oils, and 25 they wanted to emphasize hygiene in the workers. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005190 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 --i 1 --i 1 Page 127 1 Q. Was that in a policy or procedure that you're aware 2 of that was available at the Exxon Baytown refinery in the 3 '60s? 4 A. Yes . 5 Q. What policy was that? 6 A. Well, just the fact that they were provided. I don' t 7 know if you want to call that a policy, but they -- they were 8 there. I mean, that's what I'm saying. I don't think you 9 find that in some formal policy. 10 Q. Well, I'm just going to ask you about a written 11 document. Is that in any written document that you're aware 12 of, that showers were provided for hygiene reasons at the Exxon 13 Baytown refinery in the '60s or '70s? 14 A. I've seen it in documents somewhere. 15 Q. Where are those documents? 16 A. I don't know. 17 Q. Have you provided those to me today? 18 A. I don't think so, but somewhere in past reading. I 19 think I've come across a statement to that effect. 20 Q. And what was that statement in? 21 A. That showers were provided to promote good health 22 practices in the employees. 23 Q. Who wrote it? 24 A. I think it was the medical department. 25 Q. Who in the medical department wrote it? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005191 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. I don't know specifically. Page 128 2 Q. What medical department wrote it? 3 A. Exxon or Humble. 4 Q. What year was that written? 5 A. Like I say, I think it was in the 1950s, if not 6 before. 7 Q. But, again, you don't have -- 8 A. I think I've seen some -- in fact, I think even in 9 Jim Hammond's deposition he refers to that. 10 Q. All right. Did you ever participate yourself in any 11 safety meetings at the Exxon refinery? 12 A. In terms of personnel safety, I think not, though I 13 mentioned I -- I attended meetings at the refinery to discuss 14 industrial hygiene issues, but that would have been on a staff 15 level rather than participating in employee meetings. 16 Q. Do you know how much it would cost Exxon-Mobil to -- 17 each day on a turnaround to try to get the unit up, how much it 18 would cost them per day to -- in a turnaround or shutdown? 19 MR. MANNING: Objection, form. 20 A. It would certainly depend on the unit, but it could 21 be certainly in the millions. 22 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) All right. I want to ask you 23 some questions about another expert that was designated, I 24 believe. by ALCOA and also by Exxon, a Dr. Craighead. Do you 25 know him? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005192 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 129 1 A. That name is vaguely familiar, but I don't know him. 2 Q. Have you read his report? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Do you know in his report that he says that if 5 Mr. Oney has malignant mesothelioma that, in his opinion. 6 employment at the refineries, shipyards and steel mills after 7 leaving the Navy resulted in amphibole asbestos that could have 8 caused his mesothelioma? 9 A. I'm not familiar with that statement. 10 Q. Have you ever been provided a copy of his report in 11 this case? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did Exxon ever conduct -- and, again, I talked about 14 Exxon -- but its predecessors and the Baytown refinery when 15 Mr. Oney was there, did they ever conduct any mortality studies 16 or surveys of their workers related to exposures to any 17 hazardous substances at the refinery in Baytown? 18 A. Yes . 19 Q. And when were those done? 20 A. I think some studies were conducted in the '60s on up 21 through the present day. 22 Q. And where are those studies? 23 A. I'm sure copies are at the refinery. As far as I 24 know, some of those studies were published in the scientific 25 literature, so they should be publicly available. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005193 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 130 1 Q. So I should be able to get a copy if I make a request 2 for those from Exxon, the ones that are at the refinery? 3 A. I would think so. 4 Q. I want to ask you about the American Petroleum 5 Institute now. 6 A. Okay. 7 Q. Standard, ESSO, Exxon, they were members of the 8 American Petroleum Institute; correct? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. And do you know how long they had been a member or 11 when they started being a member of that organization? 12 A. Probably at least from the 1930s. 13 Q. And did they -- any Exxon employees ever participate 14 on any of the A.P.I. medical advisory committees? 15 A. Yes . 16 Q. And do you know how long they did that, from what 17 time periods? 18 A. From at least the 1950s to the present. 19 Q. And in those medical advisory committee meetings that 20 Exxon or its predecessors participated on, do you have 21 knowledge of whether asbestos hazards and diseases from 22 asbestos were discussed at those meetings? 23 A. I think from time to time they were. 24 Q. Does Exxon and its predecessors ever get the 25 information from the A.P.I. medical advisory committee WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005194 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 131 1 meetings , like safety minutes or any of the publications? 2 A. Yes . 3 Q. And when did they start getting those? 4 A. I would estimate beginning in the 1940s or 1950s. 5 Q. Did you ever receive copies of any of those 6 publications when you worked for Mobil or Exxon? 7 A. Yes . 8 Q. Was Exxon and its predecessors a member of the 9 National Safety Council? 10 A. Yes . 11 Q. Do you know for how long? 12 A. I think since at least the 1940s. 13 Q. And did they receive publications from the National 14 Safety Council? 15 A. Yes . 16 Q. Did Exxon or its predecessors ever attend meetings of 17 the National Safety Council? 18 A. Yes . 19 Q. Do you know if Exxon ever received the publication -20 and its predecessors -- the publication Oil and Gas Journal? 21 A. I believe so. 22 Q. Do you know what kind of publication that was? 23 A. It's an industry trade publication. 24 Q. Do you know how long they received it? 25 A. I would say probably at least from the 1950s. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005195 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 132 1 Q. Do you know whether or not that publication ever 2 talked about mineral wool insulation being used on pipes in 3 plants ? 4 A. It probably did. 5 Q. Do you know of any reason why mineral wool insulation 6 was used -- not used on all the piping and asbestos was? Is 7 there a reason for that because of the properties in mineral 8 wool insulation? 9 A. I think that's the primary reason. 10 Q. Did Exxon or its predecessors ever get the Journal of 11 the American Industrial Hygiene Association publication? 12 A. Yes . 13 Q. For how long? 14 A. Probably at least since the 1950s. 15 Q. And did you get that? 16 A. Yes . 17 Q. Did they get the Archives of Environmental Health? 18 A. Yes . 19 Q. From when to when? 20 A. Probably from the late 1950s until now. 21 Q. Did they get the Journal of Occupational Medicine? 22 A. Yes, from the 1940s until the present. 23 Q. And, again, I don't want to try to make you tell me 24 all the journals you got, but do you know of any other journals 25 that Exxon or its predecessors received, other than the ones I WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005196 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 133 1 told you. where they would discuss hazards of asbestos and 2 potential disease processes? 3 A. Probably the Industrial Health Foundation. There 4 could be others, but I can't think of any off the top of my 5 head. 6 Q. I was going to ask you about that. You said the 7 Industrial Health Foundation. Isn't that the Industrial 8 Hygiene Foundation? 9 A. It changed its name over time. 10 Q. When did they start -- when did Exxon and its 11 predecessors start getting those publications? 12 A. I would say probably the late 1940s. 13 Q. And do you know continuing into when? 14 A. Until the organization dissolved. I think that 15 happened in the late 1970s. 16 Q. And the Industrial Hygiene Foundation publication. 17 would that go to Crown -- I mean, not Crown -- would it go to 18 Exxon and its predecessors? 19 A. To at least someone in the company, yes. 20 Q. Do you know who that would have been? 21 A. It would have been the Research Environmental Health 22 Division in Linden, New Jersey. 23 Q. Do you know if that was ever disseminated throughout 24 the Exxon plants in the United States? 25 A. It was upon request. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005197 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 134 1 Q. Do you know whether or not those publications ever 2 talked about asbestos exposure and disease from asbestos? 3 A. I believe they did. 4 Q. Does Exxon and its predecessors have any documents 5 that identify its deceased employees? 6 A. Yes . 7 Q. Do you know where they are kept? 8 A. I'm not exactly sure. I would -- I believe they're 9 probably kept either in Houston or in Clinton, New Jersey. 10 Q. Do you know if they're still available? 11 A. I don't know. They probably are. 12 Q. Do you know if Exxon ever attended the Occupational 13 Cancer Now 1971 Symposium on Fundamental Cancer Research at 14 M.D. Anderson in Houston? 15 A. I don't know that. 16 Q. You worked at M.D. Anderson at one time, didn't you? 17 A. At one time I did. 18 Q. What did you do there? 19 A. I was an assistant biochemist. It was basically my 20 first job out of college. 21 Q. And you didn't have anything to do with asbestos 22 disease processes? 23 A. No. This was like fundamental research on DNA and 24 RNA. 25 Q. Okay. Were there any safety manuals put out by Exxon WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005198 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 and its predecessors for the years 1960 to 1974? Page 135 2 A. I'm sure there were. 3 Q. Do you know where they are? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Do you know whether or not they discussed the hazards 6 of asbestos exposure? 7 A. Again, the safety manuals were meant to be general 8 safety and health rules that applied to every employee in the 9 refinery. Different crafts and trades had hazards that were 10 specific to their jobs. And when that occurred, you'd have 11 ancillary documents that addressed those hazards. It would not 12 be part of the refinery's safety manual. 13 Q. Have you ever sat down in a room and looked at a 14 bunch of Exxon documents, such as like in this box 15 (indicating), with any attorneys to see what documents are 16 relevant to asbestos? Have you ever done that? 17 A. I don't recall doingthat. 18 Q. All right. I want to ask you about contractor - 19 information on contractors such as Brown & Root -- 20 A. Okay. 21 Q. -- S.I.P., Foster Wheeler, some of the people that 22 may have been out at the Exxon Baytown refinery. 23 A. Okay. 24 Q. I hadasked or we had requested any documents, 25 contractor documents, such as bid information or procedures WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005199 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 136 1 applicable to contractors or contract negotiation information 2 with regard to contractors. Do you know if any of that 3 information is available? 4 A. I don't know, but I think that it probably is. 5 Q. Do you know where it would be located? 6 A. Probably Houston. 7 Q. And the reason I'm asking you that is, we have asked 8 for the information and have not been provided with that 9 information. Do you know why we hadn't been provided with it? 10 MR. MANNING: Objection to form. 11 A. No. 12 MR. CAPPOLINO : Are you going to provide it to 13 us? We asked for it. 14 MR. MANNING: I'm sorry? 15 MR. CAPPOLINO : We asked for it in formal 16 discovery and we have not received it yet. 17 MR. MANNING: I haven't seen your request, Tim. 18 I'm happy to look at that and take a look at it and work with 19 you on that. 20 MR. CAPPOLINO : And, again, I think it was in a 21 supplemental response that y 'all sent us and we were asking for 22 the information, but I haven 't received it, so I guess -- 23 MR. MANNING: I haven't seen those responses. I 24 haven't seen your requests. I'm happy to go back and look at 25 it and we can discuss it. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005200 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 137 1 MR. CAPPOLINO: All right. 2 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) But does that information still 3 exist, as far as you know, the contractor information? 4 A. I would -- I would think so in some form, yes. 5 Q. Let me ask you about the Exxon refinery. When they 6 would -- I guess if they'd build a new unit or put in a 7 specification for the building of a new unit, would they use 8 like outside contractors to build those units, like Brown & 9 Root or Foster Wheeler? 10 A. To actually do the construction, yes. Obviously, 11 Exxon would do some of the fundamental engineering but then 12 turn it over to an engineering construction company like Brown 13 & Root, McDermott, you know, Fluor. 14 Q. Who would write the specifications for that type of 15 addition or construction? In other words, what type of 16 materials were to be used? What was to be built? 17 A. The initial engineering design basis would be done by 18 Exxon's central engineering and, of course, they would be using 19 A.S.T.M. standards and A.P.I. standards as part of that 20 process, but the initial design basis would come from Exxon and 21 then the engineering would be fleshed out by the contractor. 22 Q. Was there a period of time, again at Exxon Baytown 23 refinery with regard to these specifications, when Exxon did 24 not want the use of asbestos-containing materials that had a 25 substitute? Was there a period of time -- WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005201 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. Yes. Page 138 2 Q. -- when they specified that? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And when did that period begin? 5 A. Began? I would say in the early 1970s. 6 Q. Can you tell me what type, say, in the early 1970s, 7 what type of asbestos-containing materials were discouraged to 8 be used in new additions by Exxon, that had substitutes, in 9 other words, where they could use substitutes instead? 10 A. Well, essentially, any material that had a 11 commercially viable substitute that met the performance 12 requirements, and that primarily had to do with things such as 13 pipe and vessel insulation. I'm trying to remember the 14 manufacturer that came out with a asbestos-free calcium 15 silicate insulation in about '13. So as -- the central 16 engineering did a study to see what viable substitutes were 17 available, and as they did that, they changed their 18 specifications -- 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. -- to require the use of those materials as opposed 21 to an asbestos-containing material. 22 Q. So would I be correct or would this be a fair 23 statement, that by the early 1970s there was sufficient 2 4 substitute materials for asbestos-containing products that 25 could be used at a refinery? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005202 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 139 1 MR. LABOON: Objection, form. 2 A. In some applications, not all applications. 3 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) In what applications would there 4 not be substitutes for the asbestos material? 5 A. Well, I think we looked at that '73 document where we 6 were still specifying asbestos-containing gaskets, for example. 7 That took some more time. Some of the really high -- high 8 temperature vessel and pipe insulation initially did not have a 9 viable substitute, but that gradually was phased in over time. 10 So if I had to put a rough number on it, I would say by the mid 11 '70s we probably had asbestos-free substitutes for about 12 50 percent of the products that originally contained asbestos. 13 Q. Okay. In the early '70s -- again, I'm going back to 14 the specifications in the substitute materials - 15 A. Right. 16 Q. -- was Exxon -- starting in the early '70s, was Exxon 17 still specifying that insulating finishing cement or sprayed 18 asbestos could be used in the plants? 19 A. Well, that was a transition period, so part of the 20 time they probably were, but I would say by the mid '70s they 21 were not. 22 Q. And why weren't they -- why were they not -- by the 23 mid '70s, why weren't they specifying those products to be 24 used? 25 A. It would have been because there was not a WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005203 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 commercially viable substitute available. Page 140 2 Q. But in the mid '70s there was a commercially viable 3 substitute available? 4 A. I believe that's true. 5 Q. Do you know what that product was or what it was made 6 of? 7 A. I don't know what specific product it was. 8 Q. How about blanket asbestos; do you know what that is? 9 Have you ever -- 10 A. Are you talking about fire blankets or -- 11 Q. Yeah, yeah. 12 A. Yeah. By the early to mid '70s, to my knowledge all 13 the asbestos-containing blankets had been phased out and they 14 were either using fiberglass, canvas or ceramic fiber blankets. 15 Q. The early to mid ' 70s, I want to talk about 16 insulation and, again, with the specifications of molding, pipe 17 covering and block. Were there substitutes that came in, in 18 the early '70s, mid '70s, where another substitute could be 19 used for asbestos-containing molding, pipe covering and block? 20 A. I believe that's true. I base that on Jim Hammond's 21 testimony 22 Q. Do you know what that product would have been? 23 A. There was a material made -- I think it was by Carey, 24 and it had a pink tone to it, to identify that it was asbestos 25 free. I don't know specifically the name of the product. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005204 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 but. . . Page 141 2 Q. How would refineries -- and I'm not just talking 3 about Exxon. How would refineries, say, in the Texas Gulf 4 Coast area know about these substitute products in the early to 5 mid '7 0s? 6 A. I would say they were being aggressively marketed by 7 the manufacturers. 8 Q. Would these manufacturers go to the plants and market 9 it or would they just send out fliers or what would they do? 10 A. I'd say probably both. 11 Q. Do you know that, in fact, did happen? 12 A. I believe it did. 13 Q. Okay. And, again, I mentioned sprayed asbestos. Was 14 sprayed asbestos being phased out in the early to mid '70s to 15 be used ir plants? 16 A. When you talk about sprayed asbestos, I assume you're 17 referring to like gunite materials -- 18 Q. Yes . 19 A. -- things of that nature? 20 Q. Yes, sir. 21 A. Well, first of all, gunite -- not all gunite ever 22 contained asbestos, so it would depend on the type that was 23 specified. but I believe by the mid 1970s that all gunite 24 materials was asbestos free. 25 Q. Do you know what asbestos cement fire water line is? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005205 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. Yes . Page 142 2 Q. What is that? 3 A. It's basically the type of underground piping that 4 would typically be used for fire water lines. I think I do 5 know one brand name. I'm sure somebody here represents them. 6 but like Certainteed -- 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. -- for example, that type of thing. 9 Q. How do you know about Certainteed? 10 A. I've just seen it, seen the trade name appear in 11 various depositions. 12 Q. Do you know whether or not that Certainteed was in 13 existence or in place at the Exxon refinery in the '60s or 14 ' 70s? 15 A. I do not know. 16 Q. Do you know if there was a substitute material or a 17 substitute product for that asbestos cement fire water line in 18 the early to mid '70s? 19 A. I don't know the answer to that. I know I installed 20 it on a summer job. 21 Q. When was that? 22 A. It would have been the summer of -- I guess that 23 would have been 1968. 24 Q. Okay. Let me ask you about some other things. and I 25 know we had touched on them, Mr. Larson. And, again, I' m WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005206 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 143 1 talking about specifications and whether there was substitute 2 material. 3 How about the 85 percent magnesia product that 4 we talked about; do you know if there was substitutes for that 5 in the early to mid '70s to be used in refineries? 6 A. Yes. By the mid '70s, there were. 7 Q. And what were those substitutes that were available? 8 A. Well, they actually changed it from magnesia to 9 calcium silicate and they used -- I'm trying to recall the - 10 the binder that they used in place of asbestos. There was a 11 material -- I think it was ceramic fiber that they substituted 12 for asbestos. 13 Q. And you think that came in, in the mid '70s, that 14 substitute? 15 A. Approximately. 16 Q. When did Exxon start using that instead of the 17 85 percent magnesia? 18 A. It would have been the mid '70s. 19 Q. Do you know if that would have been '75? '76? Have 20 any knowledge? 21 A. Somewhere between '73 and '76. 22 Q. And why did they substitute thatproduct? 23 A. Because it became available and met the 24 specifications for its intended use. 25 Q. Well, did they substitute it because it had anything WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005207 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 to do with reducing the exposure for asbestos? Page 144 2 A. That was -- yes. 3 Q. I want to ask you about asbestos sponge felt, and I 4 know that was talked about in the Bonsib report; correct? 5 A. Right. 6 Q. What is that product? 7 A. You know, I'm really not quite sure. I don't think 8 it -- it was used -- it's being -- it was used or is being used 9 today. 10 Q. Do you know when they stopped using that, the 11 refinery ? 12 A. I don't know. It's probably in the '40s or '50s. 13 Q. Was there a substitute for the asbestos sponge felt 14 in the ' 50s that could be used at a refinery? 15 A. I'm sure there was. It was probably -- I'm just 16 thinking it was probably asbestos cloth -- 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. -- or fiberglass. I -- I really don't know. 19 Q. That's okay. 20 Refractory clay, do you know what refractory 21 clay in asbestos is? 22 A. In general terms. 23 Q. What is that, sir? 24 A. Refractory clay is used to line like furnaces and in 25 some cases boilers, and it may or may not contain asbestos. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005208 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 Some does; some doesn't. Page 145 2 Q. Did Exxon start phasing that product out in the early 3 to mid ' 70s at the Exxon Baytown plant? 4 A. I believe they did. I don't know that for a fact. 5 but I'm -- I'm fairly sure they did. 6 Q. Do you know if there was a substitute for it at that 7 time ? 8 A. Again, I think there was, but I don't know that for a 9 fact. 10 Q. Have you ever heard of something called Perlite, 11 P-E-R-L- I-T-E, and asbestos? 12 A. In asbestos? 13 Q. And asbestos. 14 A. I think I've seen that. 15 Q. Do you know if that was at Exxon in the '60s or ' 70s, 16 that particular -- 17 A. I don't know. 18 Q. Do you know if there was a substitute for that 19 product in the early to mid '70s? 20 A. I don't know that. 21 Q. Were there any boilers out at the Exxon Baytown 22 refinery in the '60s and '70s? 23 A. Certainly. 24 Q. Where were they located? Were they all over or 25 certain parts? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005209 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 146 1 A. It's my recollection there were probably two or three 2 boiler house -- houses on site -3 Q. Do you know -- 4 A. -- that would have contained probably three to four 5 boilers each. 6 Q. Do you know if any of those boilers had any 7 asbestos-containing material on them in the '60s and '70s? 8 A. They probably did. 9 Q. Do you know what that material would have been or 10 what it would have been used for? 11 A. It would have been primarily block insulation. 12 Q. Okay. Do you know who manufactured any of those 13 boilers , who the manufacturers were in the '60s and '70s? 14 A. Not offhand, not offhand. 15 Q. Do you know who was in charge of purchasing out at 16 the Exxon Baytown refinery in the '60s and '70s? 17 A. I don't, but I'm sure that could be determined. 18 Q. Have you reviewed any deposition testimony or 19 documents, exhibits to Neill Weaver, from Neill Weaver at 20 Exxon? 21 A. I've read a prior deposition that he gave. I don't 22 recall any exhibits though. 23 Q. I want to ask you about another organization, the 24 N.P.R.A . Do you know what that is? 25 A. Yes . WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005210 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 Q. What is that? Page 147 2 A. National Petroleum Refining Association. 3 Q. Was Exxon a member of that? 4 A. I believe so. 5 Q. Do you know when they started becoming a member of 6 that organization? 7 A. Probably the 1940s. 8 Q. And what was the purpose of that organization? 9 A. It was to share information among refine -- well. 10 refiners on operating practices, safety and engineering 11 standards 12 Q. And do you know if that organization ever 13 disseminated information that talked about the hazards of 14 asbestos and disease processes from asbestos? 15 A. I believe they did. 16 Q. And do you know if Exxon got any of that information? 17 A. I believe they did. 18 Q. When you worked with Exxon or Mobil, did you ever 19 share any information with other refineries, in other words. 20 call people, say, up at ARCO or Charter to see what type of 21 procedures they had for reducing asbestos exposure? 22 A. I'm sure that at some time if someone called me and 23 asked me about that -- I don't specifically recall that. but 24 I'm sure that probably occurred at some point. 25 MR. CAPPOLINO: Can we go off the record? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005211 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 148 1 (Discussion off the record.) 2 (Recess from 12:54 to 1:27.) 3 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Mr. Larson, earlier I had asked 4 you about OSHA when you worked for them, and I wanted to ask 5 you about somebody -- an industrial hygienist with OSHA and see 6 if you know who that person is, a Mrs. Linda Boehmer, 7 B-O-E-H-M-E-R? 8 A. I'm not familiar with her. She must -- if she was in 9 Houston, she was there after '76. 10 Q. Okay. Do you know what a -- and I guess in OSHA 11 parlance, do you know what a closing conference is concerning 12 an employee complaining of exposure to asbestos? Do you know 13 what that is? 14 A. Yes, generally. 15 Q. What is that? 16 A. When OSHA does an inspection, they have like three 17 phases of an inspection: One is the opening conference when 18 they arrive at the facility. They present their credentials, 19 tell them why they're there, whether it's a complaint, whether 20 it's a general inspection, whether it's in response to a 21 fatality, so on and so forth. 22 Once that's completed, they generally do what 23 they call a walkthrough in which they actually go on site, 24 inspect the facility, make a notation of any alleged violations 25 and then at the conclusion of the walkthrough, they do a WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005212 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 149 1 closing conference to review their findings and whether or not 2 there may be any, quote, potential citations issued. 3 So the closing conference, I guess, in regards 4 to an asbestos complaint would be sitting down with management 5 and any union representative, if the facility's, you know. 6 organized, and discussing the findings of the inspection. 7 Q. Okay. In Mr. Trembly's deposition and maybe in 8 Mr. Bradley's, do you recall when there was a reference to an 9 OSHA inspection probably sometime in '83 at the Crown plant? 10 A. I think that sounds right. 11 Q. Could you tell from reading the deposition testimony 12 what type of inspection was made? 13 A. No, not really. 14 Q. Are there different types of inspections, some not as 15 complete as others, that OSHA inspectors did in '83 when they 16 went out to a plant? 17 A. Well, yeah. Typically if it was a complaint, they'd 18 come in specifically and follow up on the very narrow area of 19 the complaint -- 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. -- as opposed to doing what they call a generally 22 scheduled inspection where you do basically a wall-to-wall 23 survey. 24 Q. But you couldn't tell from the deposition testimony 25 what -- exactly what type of inspection OSHA did at the Crown WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005213 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 plant? Page 150 2 A. No, I can't. 3 Q. I wanted to ask you -- and I went through the box of 4 documents real briefly, and I was just going to ask you about a 5 few things. One of them was this letter by James Hammond who 6 you've referenced before dated August 17th, 1994 to Mr. Hans 7 Siegel at Exxon -- 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. -- this document. And I'm probably not going to 10 attach it, but I just wanted to ask you, what is this document? 11 A. I think that was toward the end of his career. And 12 Siegel, I believe, was in the Exxon medical department. And I 13 guess they wanted him to basically, I guess, memorialize 14 what -- what his approach had been in Exxon to the industrial 15 hygiene in general and to asbestos controls specifically. 16 Q. Do you know whether or not this document was prepared 17 because of any asbestos litigation that was going on at that 18 time against Exxon? 19 A. I have no idea. 20 Q. Then I had a document, "Chronology of Asbestos 21 Regulation in United States Workplaces." What is this document 22 about? 23 A. It traces the history of governmental and 24 nongovernmental recommendations and regulations regarding 25 asbestos exposure. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005214 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 151 1 Q. Have you relied at all, let me ask you, on either one 2 of those two documents in giving your testimony today? 3 A. Well, yes. 4 Q. In what -- 5 A. Particularly the Hammond document. 6 Q. Okay. In what way? Why did you rely -- or just 7 basically because what Mr. Hammond said as far as the practices 8 at Exxon with regard to asbestos exposure and other exposure? 9 A. In that memo as well as in his deposition from 1990. 10 Q. I've got the -- this is the Trembly deposition that 11 you had to review. Volumes 1 and 2. And I just wanted to ask 12 you, you had marked a couple pages in here. 13 A. Okay. 14 Q. Let me just hand you the Trembly Volume 1 where 15 you marked a page, and the question I wanted to ask you, 16 Mr. Larson, is why did you mark that page in that deposition? 17 A. Let's see. That's a good question. I normally 18 highlight anything of interest in yellow, but I see I didn't do 19 that here. Huh. Quite frankly, I really don't know why I 20 would have tabbed that page because I don't really see anything 21 in here that really catches my eye in terms of 22 asbestos-handling procedures or safety procedures. 23 Like I said, I usually -- I usually highlight 24 passages that are of interest with yellow and I see -- this 25 sticky may have gotten on here by accident. I don't know. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005215 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 152 1 Q. Why do you usually highlight depositions that you 2 review? 3 A. Just to basically save time in indexing what I think 4 is important. 5 Q. Did lawyers for Exxon tell you not to highlight any 6 of the deposition testimony in this case? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Let me show you a Volume No. 2 of Trembly. 9 A. Okay. 10 Q. You also -- did this sticker on that Volume 2 get 11 there by mistake, too? 12 A. I hope not. I'm not in the practice of doing that. 13 Well, basically on this page it identifies the various types of 14 asbestos-containing materials that were present at the site and 15 it also refers to Mr. Bradley, the safety supervisor. And that 16 was the first reference I recall seeing about a 17 Mr. Bradley. 18 And then, of course, there was also then the 19 subsequent deposition by Mr. Bradley. I used this, I guess, to 20 highlight the fact that Mr. Bradley was in charge of safety and 21 would have been responsible for any procedures related to the 22 asbestos-containing products that were in use at Crown. 23 Q. Okay. I'm through with that, sir. Thank you. I'll 2 4 put that back in the box. 25 A. Okay. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005216 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 153 1 Q. I also have a document that I got out of the box 2 called, "State-of-the-Art Knowledge, Asbestos Exposure in 3 Petrochemical Plants," which is written by William Dyson, who 4 is an industrial hygienist expert, I believe, who was called to 5 testify several times for the defendants. 6 A. Right. 7 Q. And how did you rely on this, if at all? 8 A. Well, he talks about the historical regulation of 9 asbestos and state-of-the-art in terms of knowledge about when 10 certain health effects went out about asbestos. He also 11 goes -- and there's some fairly good, I think, exposure data 12 found for monitoring certain types of operations. 13 Q. Okay. I've got the document that, I think, I 14 reference, and then I've marked it as an exhibit, the 15 Occupational Health Regulations from the State of Texas 1958. 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. And this is the one that has, you know, the asbestos 18 in it. And the information, I believe it's on Page - 19 A. It's toward the end. 20 Q. Yeah. On mineral dust, where it has asbestos, 21 5 millions of particles per cubic foot of air. 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. I got something from the C.F.R. section. 24 A. I believe that's the 1987 OSHA asbestos regulations. 25 Q. Okay. And I wanted to ask you, have you ever -- have WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005217 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 154 1 you read some kind of a report from a Wesley Charles Hewitt 2 from a - - retired United States Navy on the Oney case? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Have you seen a copy of that? 5 A. I have not. 6 Q. I want to ask you about your designation as an expert 7 in this case. Have you read the Exxon-Mobil Corporation s 8 Supplemental Designation of Fact and Expert Witnesses where 9 you're listed as an expert? 10 A. I don't know if I have or not. 11 Q. Do you know whether or not you provided any of the 12 information that's in here to Exxon-Mobil about what you re 13 going to testify about? 14 A. Could I take a look at that? 15 Q. Yeah. 16 A. Yeah, I've seen this. It's probably been a couple of 17 years. 18 Q. Is the information accurate in there with regard to 19 your expected areas of testimony in this case? 20 A. I would say so. 21 Q. Okay. One of the things that was mentioned in here 22 is that "Mr. Larson may testify regarding matters in response 23 to testimony of Plaintiff's experts." Have you reviewed any of 24 the experts' testimony that's been taken in this case on behalf 25 of Plaintiffs in the Oney case? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005218 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. Not to date. Page 155 2 Q. At any time? 3 A. No. I would assume that if - - I may be asked to in 4 the future. 5 Q. For instance. you haven't seen Dr. Roggli's 6 deposition? 7 A. No. 8 Q. I believe you testified back in 2004 in a case out of 9 Travis County, Texas. I just wanted to ask you about this, 10 where you stated, "In the contract for contractors, Mobil makes 11 it clear that you will do things Mobil' s way or you're not 12 going to do it period." Do you recall stating that? 13 A. I don't recall that specific language; but. I mean. 14 I -- I'm not surprised to hear a quote like that. 15 Q. And would you -- is that accurate? Do you agree with 16 that? 17 A. That -- okay. Yes. I do in general, yes. 18 Q. All right. You also said in that testimony that 19 "Upon contractors being hired, they attended an orientation by 20 Mobil safety and health personnel and would review the safety 21 and health procedures in effect for the plant as well as any 22 specific health hazards that might be present." 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. Do you recall stating that? 25 A. Correct. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005219 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 Q. And is that true? Page 156 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. And then I believe you also stated that, "After 4 orientation, a Mobil person was assigned to that contractor to 5 periodically review their work practice, work safety, and make 6 sure they were meeting Mobil's requirements. Workers should be 7 informed of health hazards they are exposed to." Do you recall 8 stating that? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And is that an accurate statement? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. I want to ask you -- and there was something I was 13 trying to find earlier in one of the Stovall depositions. This 14 was marked as Larson 38, and I believe this was a deposition in 15 June of 1996. And, again, I'm probably going to have to come 16 over and look over your shoulder and I apologize, but let me 17 just come over here real quick. 18 And was there a period of time at the Exxon 19 Baytown refinery where all crafts tore off insulation? 20 A. I don't believe so. 21 Q. All right. In Mr. Stovall's deposition testimony 22 here, there's a question asked and it's on Page 10, Line 3. 23 The question was, "What does an insulator do?" 2 4 And the answer was, "He tore off insulation if 25 it was a smaller job, you know. All crafts tore off insulation WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005220 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 157 1 as far as that would go. Then he reapplied the insulation 2 after repairs." 3 And do you disagree with that statement? You 4 don't think that's accurate? 5 A. That's not the way it's supposed to happen. No, I 6 don't agree. 7 Q. All right. 8 A. I mean, again, you know, work is typically craft 9 specific. Welders weld. Insulators insulate. And insulators 10 don't do pipefitting, just like a pipefitter doesn't do 11 insulation. 12 Q. He also described -- and let me ask you this. During 13 the turnarounds and the shutdowns, do you know what the 14 condition of the air was or what the air environment was during 15 those periods of time? 16 A. Do I know? 17 Q. Yeah. 18 A. Specific -- I don't have any personal knowledge. 19 Q. All right. They asked him on Page 14, Line 5, "Okay. 20 Can you describe the air environment during these turnarounds 21 and shutdowns?" 22 His answer was, "Dirty, nasty, dusty." 23 Did I read that correctly? 24 A. You did, but I don't think it reflects procedure. 25 But, yes. you did. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005221 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 158 1 Q. What do you mean, it doesn't reflect procedure? 2 A. Well, I think beginning with the Bonsib report in 3 1937 on up through James Hammond's depositions and his memos. 4 it says that it was standard operating procedure to wet down 5 any insulation prior to its removal. 6 Q. Okay. Going back further on that, just to kind of 7 put that in context, I'm going to start on Page 13, Line 7 with 8 regard to his observation of the air environment. And the 9 question was, "I believe in your previous deposition you said 10 that about anywhere from 30 to 45 minutes a day you might be in 11 the office doing some paperwork. Does that sound about right?" 12 The answer was, "Yeah, making out time sheets. 13 right." 14 "QUESTION: What would you be doing the other 15 part of the time, the other 7 or 8 hours a day?" 16 And his answer was, "Coordinating the work of 17 the men in the field." 18 "QUESTION: Would you basically be called a 19 field supervisor?" 20 "ANSWER: That's right." 21 "QUESTION: Would you be outside where the work 22 was being done?" 23 "ANSWER: Right. We were really called a first 24 line supervisor." 25 And his question was, "First line supervisor, if WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005222 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 159 1 you can, describe to the ladies and gentlemen of the j ury in 2 your own words." 3 His answer was, "They were the people that the 4 craftsmen answered to for their direction." 5 And then the question was, "Fair enough. Would 6 they track you down in the office to ask you or would they f ind 7 you on the job site?" 8 "ANSWER: They would just turn around there . I 9 would be standing there pretty close." 10 And that was before the section we talked about 11 the air environment during the turnarounds. 12 Did I read that testimony correctly? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Do you have any reason to dispute that he was out 15 there with these workers when they were doing work? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Then the lawyer, who is Mr. Patronella, on Page 14, 18 Line 15 asked him a question: "I don't want you to guess or 19 speculate. I just want you to describe what you saw with your 20 own two eyeballs." 21 And then going down to Page 14, Line 22, he 22 said, "A lot of the dust was caused from tearing off 23 insulation." 24 Did I read that correctly? 25 A. Yes. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005223 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 Q. Do you have any reason to dispute that? Page 160 2 A. Well, yes. Going back to standard operating 3 procedure , wetting the insulation before it was removed, that 4 would have prevented dust from being generated by the removal. 5 Q. But, again, you recall in another deposition, I think 6 the Altimore, where he stated this wetting down didn't occur. 7 Do you recall that? 8 A. I suppose I do. 9 Q. All right. But, again, you said that just couldn't 10 happen? 11 A. It's not consistent with my knowledge. 12 Q. All right. Another question was asked to him on Page 13 14, Line 24: "What about new insulation when it was applied; 14 did that ever create any dust?" 15 His answer was, on Page 15, Line 4, "Yes, it 16 did. " 17 And then they said, "Did you see that dust with 18 your own eyes?" 19 He said, "I sure did, whenever they were cutting 20 or sawinc , cutting and fitting." 21 Did I read that correctly? 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. Do you have any reason to dispute that testimony? 24 A. It doesn't talk about what procedures were also in 25 place at that time because, again, standard operating procedure WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005224 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 when installing insulation would be the requirement for Page 161 2 respiratory protection. Did -- was there a potential to create 3 dust when they caught it, say, with a saw blade? I'd agree 4 with that, but I don't -- wouldn't agree that there would be 5 exposure, per se, because of the protective measures. 6 Q. But, again, this was a gentleman that was out there 7 eyeballing these people doing this work, according to his 8 testimony? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. And you weren't there? 11 A. I wasn't there, but there were safety inspectors on 12 every unit or for every turnaround that enforced the 13 requirements. So that's not consistent with my knowledge. 14 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, nonresponsive. 15 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) The insulation he's talking 16 about, he talked about pipe and block insulation. Was that 17 insulation at times at the Exxon refinery being applied and 18 removed? 19 A. From time to time, yes. 20 Q. All right. And, again, how would it usually be 21 removed, as far as what you know? 22 A. The area would be isolated typically with yellow 23 tape. The insulation to be removed would be thoroughly wet 24 with water and also an emulsifying agent. And then essentially 25 the insulation would be -- the wire holding the insulation WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005225 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 162 1 would be cut and the pieces would be taken down and put in bags 2 for disposal. 3 Q. Are you familiar with any of the type of pipe 4 insulation, asbestos-containing pipe insulation that was out at 5 the Exxon Baytown refinery in the '50s and '60s as far as brand 6 names ? 7 A. I've seen reference to a number of brand names from 8 time to time. 9 Q. And what were those names, as far as you recall, 10 Mr. Larson? 11 A. Let's see. I think I've seen reference to 12 Johns-Manville, Carey. Let's see. What other ones? Corning. 13 And I believe that's the three principle manufacturers that I 14 recall. 15 Q. How about Pabco, P-A-B-C-O; do you know if that was 16 out there at that time? 17 A. I -- I can't tell you that one way or the other. 18 Q. What about Kaylo? 19 A. Kaylo? I -- I have seen reference to Kaylo, yes. 20 Q. And have you seen reference to the Kaylo insulation 21 being out at the Exxon refinery in the '60s and '70s? 22 A. I think at some point I have seen a reference to 23 that, yes. 24 Q. Have you seen any references to Kaylo pipe covering 25 insulation being out at the Exxon Baytown refinery in the '50s? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005226 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. I don't recall that, no. Page 163 2 Q. How about the product Unibestos? 3 A. I don't recall that. 4 Q. All right. I'm going to go to his deposition 5 testimony real quick concerning that. They asked him on Page 6 15, Line 21, and they said, "Speaking about the pipe 7 insulation, are you familiar with any of the brand names or 8 manufacturer names of any of the pipe insulation that was used 9 between the years 1958 through the 1969 time period?" 10 And one of them he mentioned in the answer is 11 Johns-Manville; correct? 12 A. Uh-huh. 13 Q. And then on Page 16, Line 2 he mentions Carey, Pabco, 14 Kaylo and Unibestos. And did I read that correctly? 15 A. Yes. I think the only one I didn't identify was the 16 Unibestos 17 Q. Okay. 18 MR. LABOON: Which depo were you referring to? 19 The plaintiff's or -- 20 THE WITNESS: Stovall. 21 MR. LABOON: Stovall. 22 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) He also states on Page 17, Line 4 23 that he saw insulators taking these materials out of the box. 24 Do you see that? 25 A. Yes . WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005227 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 164 1 Q. He also says with regard to Kaylo -- when they asked 2 him on Page 17, Line 10, "Could you describe what the Kaylo box 3 looks like?" he described it. And then they asked him, "Did 4 you just see one box between 1958 to 1969?" 5 He said, "No. I saw several boxes." 6 Did I read that correctly? 7 A. Yes . 8 Q. They also asked him on Page 18, Line 7, "What time 9 periods or decades was Kaylo pipe covering used that you 10 recall?" 11 And he said, "We used it in the '50s, '60s and 12 early '70s IT 13 Then the question, "Where was Kaylo pipe 14 covering used?" 15 He said, "All over the refinery on pipe." 16 And is that what he stated? 17 MR. COSMICH: Object to the form. 18 A. That's what he said, yes. 19 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) You don't agree with that? 20 A. I don't agree completely because he says all over the 21 refinery. Again, Kaylo-containing asbestos would only have 22 been used on the high temperature application, so it couldn't 23 have been. quote, all over the refinery. It -- it would have 24 been used in certain areas. 25 Q. What areas would it have been used in, as far as you WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005228 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 know? Page 165 2 A. Again, where operating temperatures exceeded 3 800 degrees. 4 Q. It says, again, on Page 18, Line 23, "What decades or 5 time periods was Kaylo block used?" 6 He said, "'50s, '60s and '70s"; correct? 7 A. Yes . 8 Q. And then he said, "How do you know that?" 9 His answer was he saw it taken out of the boxes 10 and applied. 11 Did I read that correctly? 12 A. Yes . 13 Q. And then on Page 19, Line 2, he says, "Was Kaylo pipe 14 covering a product that was only used on rare occasions?" 15 His answer was, "No, many occasions." 16 Correct ? 17 A. Again, I -- that's what he says. I'll agree with 18 that. But, again, it would have been used in limited 19 applications on high temperature processes. 20 Q. Okay. On Page 22 -- I'm going to Unibestos now -- 21 Page 22, Line 17, the question was, "Do you recall seeing 22 Unibestos throughout the entire time period of the '60s?" 23 His answer on Line 22 was, "Yes." 24 Correct ? 25 A. Yes, but that's -- that doesn't fit with what I've WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005229 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 166 1 read and seen from even some of the bulk sampling work that's 2 been done on insulation that apparently Unibestos was used 3 very, very infrequently, if at all. 4 Q. And what information did you look at to give us this 5 information? 6 A. I've seen bulk sampling results from various 7 refineries , and very rarely do these bulk samples contain any 8 type of amosite asbestos. 9 Q. Do you know if any of the samples or any of the 10 insulation in Exxon Baytown refinery in the '50s, '60s and '70s 11 contained amosite asbestos? 12 A. It's possible, but I would say a very small 13 proportion of the insulation that was in use would have 14 contained amosite. 15 Q. And, again, I asked you this question before. You 16 never saw an industrial hygiene survey from the Exxon Baytown 17 refinery; correct ? 18 A. Oh, I have. 19 Q. Oh, you have? 20 When did you see that? 21 A. When I spent my two-week orientation at Baytown. 22 Q. And what years did that cover, that survey? 23 A. That would have covered -- as I recall, it was some 24 work that was done in 1972 and 1973. 25 Q. Okay. I want to turn to Page 27 of that same WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005230 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 167 1 deposition -- or Page 25. I'm sorry. He's talking about an 2 individual by the name of Luther Wilkerson who worked out at 3 Exxon refinery in Baytown. Do you know that person? 4 A. No, I don't. 5 Q. Never heard of his name? 6 A. No. 7 Q. It said on Page 25, Line 11, "When Luther Wilkerson 8 cut the Kaylo pipe covering, what would happen?" 9 His answer was, "It created dust." 10 "QUESTION: Did you see that dust with your own 11 eyes ?" 12 His answer was, "Sure did." 13 Do you have any reason to dispute that 14 testimony? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Because dust can be created when you cut it, this 17 pipe insulation? 18 A. Some amount. 19 Q. All right. Further on Page 27, it asks again in a 20 question. Page 27, Line 6, "Fair enough. From 1958 to 1967, 21 did you see it with your own eyes, Luther Wilkerson cut and saw 22 Kaylo pipe insulation?" 23 Answer was, "Yes, I did." 2 4 And "QUESTION: When he cut and sawed Kaylo pipe 25 insulation, did that create dust?" WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005231 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 168 1 The answer was, "Yes, it did." 2 And the question was, "And would that dust be in 3 the areas where you and other men would be working?" 4 His answer was, "Just like snow." 5 A. I wouldn't agree with that. 6 Q. Why not? 7 A. Because it just doesn't happen. 8 Q. That it's just like snow getting on other people? 9 A. Not -- not in my experience or from my knowledge. 10 Q. Have you ever cut asbestos insulation? 11 A. No, but I've seen other people do it. 12 Q. All right. And when did you see them do it? 13 A. Let's see. I think on one of my OSHA inspections. I 14 saw some maintenance people cutting asbestos. I think once or 15 twice when I was at the Houston chemical plant for Exxon 16 chemical, I saw people cut insulation. And that's probably 17 about it. 18 Q. All right. Then he says on Page 27, Line 22, 19 "QUESTION : Would others that were working in the area -- would 20 they be exposed to Kaylo pipe insulation?" 21 And his answer was, "Everybody." 22 A. Again, I think that's -- 23 Q. Do you disagree with that? 24 A. -- that's over the top. 25 Q. All right. Let me just ask you if you've ever heard WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005232 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 169 1 of these individuals, and I think he referenced them in the 2 deposition, but I'm not going to go over each one of them. 3 Walter Koepke, K-O-E-P-K-E, a boilermaker? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Do you know who that person is? 6 A. No . 7 Q. Maxey, M-A-X-E-Y, Ward? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Alfred Wotipka? I think it's W-O-T-I-P-K-A. 10 A. No . 11 Q. Walter Hillhouse? 12 A. No. 13 Q. All right. When you saw people cutting pipe 14 insulation, did the dust from the cutting ever get on their 15 clothes? 16 A. I don't believe it did. They weren't using power 17 equipment . This is hand sawing. 18 Q. Yeah. 19 A. Created very little dust. I don't believe it did. 20 Q. And -- 21 A. At least not any visible dust. 22 Q. What years did you see that? When did you observe 23 that? When you said you were with OSHA? 24 A. It would have been -- let's see, in the early '70s. 25 Q. Any other time other than the early '70s? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005233 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. I don't believe so. Page 170 2 Q. They asked him a question here on Page 46, Line 23, 3 "Would Mr. Koepke go home with Kaylo pipe covering dust on his 4 clothes ?" 5 His answer was, "Oh, yes, we all did." 6 MR. COSMICH: Object to the form. 7 MR. CAPPOLINO: Basis? 8 MR. COSMICH: Speculation within the deposition 9 itself. 10 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) You can answer the question. Let 11 me ask you this. Did I read that correctly? 12 A. Yes. But we've already covered it, first of all. 13 that Exxon provided change rooms and showers and laundering of 14 clothing. so if there was any dust on the clothes -- which 15 unless you 're an insulator, you probably wouldn't have any -- 16 it would have been removed by the time you went home. 17 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, nonresponsive. 18 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Let me just back up a little bit. 19 On Page 46 , Line 9 the question was asked, "Do you know if 20 Walter Koepke got the dust from Kaylo pipe covering on his 21 clothing?" 22 And the answer was, "Yes, he did." 23 And the question was, "I don't want you to guess 24 or speculate, but how do you know that?" 25 His answer was, "All of it, it was so prevalent WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005234 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 that it was on everybody." Page 171 2 Did I read that correctly? 3 A. Yes. But, again, I -- it's not consistent with my 4 experience or knowledge. 5 Q. Okay. Do you know an individual by the name of John 6 Turner who was a carpenter out at Baytown refinery? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Do you know an individual by the name of Stanley 9 Cernoch, C-E-R-N-O-C-H, who was a pipefitter and mechanical 10 craftsman out at the Baytown refinery. 11 A. No. 12 Q. How about a James Hall, who was a first line welder? 13 A. No. 14 Q. On Page 59 of the deposition on Line 4, they asked 15 him a question about James Hall who I just mentioned. It says. 16 "James Hall, do you know James Hall?" 17 His answer on Line 10 was, "I know James Hall. " 18 And the question on Line 17, "How do you know 19 James Hall?" 20 "ANSWER: He was a friend of mine. He was a 21 first line welder and then a first line supervisor." 22 Did I read that correctly? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And then I'm picking up on Page 61, Line 14. They 25 ask him, "We were talking about James Hall." WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005235 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 "ANSWER: James Hall." Page 172 2 The question, "James Hall is a supervisor. Was 3 he ever in areas where insulators were working with the Kaylo 4 pipe covering product? You can answer it." 5 And the answer was, "Yes, he was." 6 And then the question was, "Between the years 7 1958 through 1969, was James Hall exposed to Kaylo pipe 8 covering dust?" 9 His answer was, "Yes, he was." 10 Did I read that correctly? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Do you have any reason to dispute that testimony? 13 A. I would just say that, again, if they were using 14 asbestos-containing insulation, he may have been working with 15 it and handling it, but according to safety procedures, he 16 would have been wearing respiratory protection. 17 Q. And then on Page 62, picking up on Line 7, again the 18 lawyer asked, "I don't want you to speculate. How do you know 19 that James Hall was exposed to Kaylo pipe covering?" 20 And his answer on 62, Line 14 was, "I saw his 21 insulators taking it out of the box." 22 And they asked him, "Who were some of the 23 insulators ?" 2 4 And he said, "Morris Johnson, Maxey Ward, Luther 25 Wilkerson." WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005236 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 173 1 Did I read that correctly? 2 A. Yes . 3 Q. Further on Page 63, the question on Line 17, starting 4 from that lawyer again, "Are you able to testify that James 5 Hall was exposed to the Kaylo pipe covering dust throughout 6 that time period, '58 through '69?" 7 His answer was, "Yes, I am." 8 Did I read that correctly? 9 A. Yes, but there's a difference between handling and -10 and being exposed. 11 MR. CAPPOLINO: Objection to everything after 12 "Yes , " as far as being nonresponsive. 13 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) On Page 64, Line 1 the question 14 was, "Did you see that with your own eyes?" 15 He said, "I did." 16 And then they asked him about Unibestos pipe 17 covering. "And how do you know that James Hall was around 18 Unibestos pipe covering?" 19 And then he says in his answer, " I saw the 20 insulators and his insulators take it out of the box, put it on 21 the pipe, cut it, fit it. " 22 And then they asked him, "Between the years '62 23 to ' 69, was James Hall exposed to Unibestos pipe covering?" 24 His answer was, "Yes." 25 Did I read that correctly? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005237 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 174 1 A. Yes. But, again, I think very little, if any. 2 Unibestos was actually used. If they were using Unibestos, it 3 would be the exception and not the rule. And, again, he'd be 4 wearing respiratory protection. 5 Q. Do you know an individual or ever talk to an 6 individual at the Baytown refinery named Jim Albis, A-L-B-I-S? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Have you ever heard of a laborer, Alfred Anderson? 9 A. No. 10 Q. A welder, Charles Amyett, A-M-Y-E-T-T? 11 A. In what period was this? 12 Q. That would have been in the '58 to '69 period. 13 A. No. I wasn't employed then. 14 Q. Wilburn Ashwood, a pipefitter, ever hear of him? 15 A. If they were there prior to '76, I would not have 16 known them. 17 Q. Robert Bennett, a laborer, tube cleaner, boilermaker. 18 did -- 19 A. No. 20 Q. -- you ever hear of him? 21 A. No. 22 Q. On Page 82 the lawyer's asking questions about 23 whether a person by the name of Robert Bennett was exposed to 24 Unibestos pipe covering in there. 25 And then going to the next page. Page 83, the WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005238 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 175 1 lawyer asked, starting on Line 15, his question with regard to 2 Mr. Bennett was, "Those aren't the only products he was exposed 3 to?" 4 The answer was, "There was -- " 5 And the question, "Several products?" 6 His answer was, " -- Pabco, Carey." 7 And he says, "Those are just the pipe 8 insulation?" -- the question. 9 The answer was, "Johns-Manville, yes, Garlock 10 packing , mud." 11 Did I read that correctly? 12 A. Yes . 13 Q. Do you know what Garlock packing mud was? 14 A. Garlock packing, then comma, mud. I don't know -- I 15 don't think -- I don't believe Garlock made mud. 16 Q. As far as you know, Garlock mostly made the gaskets 17 and the packing? 18 A. That's my understanding. 19 Q. And, again, do you know whether or not those 20 materials were out at the Exxon refinery in the '50s or '60s? 21 A. I think there's a very good possibility they were. 22 Q. Do you have any reason to dispute that this 23 Mr. Bennett was exposed to asbestos from Garlock packing? 24 MR. LABOON: Objection, form. 25 A. Yes. If -- again, there was a requirement that was WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005239 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 176 1 in force by the safety inspectors that any employee handling an 2 asbestos- containing material wear respiratory protection. 3 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Okay. Mr. Larson, I went ahead 4 and had - - before we started -- some exhibits marked, and these 5 probably fill in the holes. And actually, they're Exhibit 6 Numbers 6 through 34, and I have them in a binder here. 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. And I'm going to try to get through them as quickly 9 as I can. but I wanted to -- 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. -- hand you this binder that has them in there -12 A. All right. 13 Q. -- and then go over them with you. And just tell me. 14 first of all, if you've ever seen the documents, and I'll visit 15 with you a little bit about what each one is. 16 A. Okay. All right. The -17 MR. MANNING: Well, he'll ask you a question. 18 THE WITNESS: Okay. 19 MR. MANNING: These are -- Tim, just -- these 20 are 6 through 34? 21 MR. CAPPOLINO: Yeah. 22 MR. MANNING: For this deposition? 23 MR. CAPPOLINO: Yes. 24 MR. MANNING: Okay. 25 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) All right. I want to ask you WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005240 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 about Exhibit No. 6 -- Page 177 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. -- the first one, which is called, "Company 4 Confidential, Not for Publication in Present Form: A Report on 5 Summary of the Plant Industrial Hygiene Problems," with some of 6 the authors that you've mentioned, Hammond, Bonsib, Hendricks 7 and Berry, April 12th, 1949. Have you ever seen a copy of this 8 document before? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. 11 chance t 12 about? 13 A. I think it was like a critical assessment of the 14 occupati 15 specific 16 than one 17 occupati 18 ESSO sub 19 Q. Does this document anywhere talk about asbestos? 20 A. I think it does. Let's see. 21 Q. And if you could turn us to that location? 22 Maybe I can speed this up a little bit. 23 A. Okay. 24 Q. Actually, I think it may be talking about it on the 25 section that begins, "Industrial Hygiene Problems Observed in WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005241 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 178 1 the Baytown Refinery," J.W. Hammond who wrote that. Do you see 2 that part where it starts? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And I think we're going to go -- and, again, if I'm 5 not saying something right, let meknow -- Page 4 ofthat at 6 the bottom. 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. And where it says, "The exposure to asbestos under 9 normal operating conditions," do you see that paragraph? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. It says, "The exposure to asbestos under normal 12 operating conditions in the Refinery is not extensive, but 13 frequently it is necessary for an insulator to do work inside 14 of a closed space with limited ventilation, making it possible 15 that a high concentration of asbestos dust may be engendered." 16 And did I read that correctly? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And do you agree with that statement by Mr. Hammond 19 or Dr. Hammond? 20 A. Yes, but he -- he doesn't really address protective 21 equipment, but certainly being in a closed area, you could 22 certainly generate a high concentration. 23 Q. Yes, sir. And when you say, "high concentration," 24 what do you mean? Something that would exceed the threshold 25 limit values? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005242 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. That's not stated. It could mean that. Page 179 2 Q. But -- all right. 3 A. It could mean that. 4 Q. And then it says, "Also, the asbestos insulations are 5 sawed by power saws which give off rather heavy clouds of dust. 6 This problem should be studied." 7 Did I read that correctly? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Do you dispute that? 10 A. No. It's -- but it's my understanding that there was 11 a practice to install local exhaust ventilation on any power 12 equipment. I don't know if that had been done by this time or 13 if this was basically a recommendation to look into that. 14 Q. Okay. Did you review this document for today's 15 deposition? 16 A. Not for today. 17 Q. All right. Going further, a little bit further into 18 that document under the appendix section, Mr. Larson, where I 19 believe we talked earlier about industrial hygiene surveys, do 20 you see an appendix attached called, "Summary of Preliminary 21 Industrial Hygiene Survey At Baytown"? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. The second page of that lists materials or 2 4 conditions, and the last one has, "Silica and Asbestos." Do 25 you see that? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005243 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. Yes . Page 180 2 Q. And then it says, "Potential Diseases: Silicosis 3 fibrosis , erythema and cancer of the lungs." 4 A. Yes . 5 Q. And the departments and crafts affected by 6 recommendation, it says, "Brick masons and helpers, insulators. 7 laborers and pipe benders." 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. Do you agree with that? 10 A. Yes. Some of these jobs, that would be referring 11 primarily to silica exposure rather than asbestos. 12 Q. Well, how do you differentiate some would be silica 13 versus asbestos? 14 A. For example, brick masons, a brick contains a high 15 percentage of silica, so that was -- that was probably a job 16 that was related specifically to silica. 17 Q. All right. 18 A. Insulators obviously would be related to potential 19 asbestos exposure, and laborers, and possibly also pipe 20 benders. 21 Q. All right. When they say "helpers" -- 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. -- do you know if that means helpers to brick masons 24 or some other type of helpers? 25 A. I -- I think it's referring to brick masons. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005244 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 181 1 Q. All right. If it wasn't referring to brick masons -2 A. It would say that at the end of all these. 3 Q. Was there a craft out there just called a helper? 4 A. No. Each craft typically had helpers. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. But for some reason they -- I guess they suppose that 7 helpers of the brick masons would have -- also have exposure to 8 silica. 9 Q. Out at the Exxon Baytown refinery, was there a craft 10 called a Stillman? 11 A. That's not a craft. That's -- that's a job 12 assignment 13 Q. What is that? Do you know what that involves? 14 A. They typically work on the crude unit where you break 15 down crude into its components. 16 Q. Was there a type of job description called a general 17 mechanical helper at the Exxon refinery in the -18 A. I think there was. 19 Q. Do you know what type of duties they had out there at 20 the refinery in the '60s and '70s? 21 A. They would help the mechanics do their specific job. 22 whether it be overhauling a pump or working on instrumentation. 23 Q. Overhauling a pump. What did that involve? 24 A. It could involve changing out a seal in a pump. 25 Typically, that was the most common type of maintenance that WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005245 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 was done on pumps. Page 182 2 Q. Do you know if any of those seals contained asbestos 3 back in the '60s -- '50s, '60s? 4 A. Some -- some of the gaskets did and some of the 5 packing material did. 6 Q. Okay. Also attached to that document is a document 7 called. "Summary of Industrial Hygiene Problems in Connection 8 with Some Standard Oil Development Company's ESSO Laboratory 9 Research Projects at Baton Rouge Refinery." Do you see that? 10 A. Yes . 11 Q. And have you seen that document before? 12 A. I believe I have. 13 Q. Do you know if asbestos is discussed in that 14 document ? 15 A. I think probably it is. 16 Q. Do you know where? 17 A. I haven't found it yet. I haven't found it. 18 Q. Okay. Let me go to another part of that, "Summary of 19 Plant Industrial Hygiene Problems, Standard Oil Company, (New 20 Jersey), N.V. Hendricks, M.S." Do you know who N.V. Hendricks 21 was ? 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. Who is he? 24 A. He was the industrial hygienist for Standard Oil. I 25 believe it was still Standard Oil of New Jersey at that time. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005246 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 183 1 Q. Yes, sir. Is there any discussion of asbestos 2 exposure in this section of this exhibit that you can see? 3 A. By the way, I would like to make one comment on the 4 report for the Baton Rouge refinery. The author of that was 5 Roy Bonsib who wrote the article on dust. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. It's kind of ironic that he doesn't mention asbestos 8 in that oarticular report. Anyway... 9 Q. I asked you about the Hendricks section -- 10 A. Right. 11 Q. Does that discuss asbestos? 12 A. Let me check. I don't see it, but that doesn't mean 13 it's not here. 14 Q. All right. Well, if for some reason you look through 15 the deposition later and you find it in that exhibit, will you 16 let your lawyer for Exxon know and let me know? 17 A. Certainly. 18 Q. Let's go to Exhibit No. 7. I think we've talked 19 about this already. It's called, "Humble Oil and Refining 20 Company, Baytown Refinery, Insulation Materials Used in 1965." 21 Do you see that? 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. And I -- I asked you this before, and I apologize and 24 I forgot your answer. Have you seen this document before? 25 A. This document? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005247 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 Q. Yeah. Page 184 2 A. I believe I have. 3 Q. All right. And does this indicate the insulation 4 materials used there in 1965? 5 A. I -- I believe it does. 6 Q. And is this a document put out by Humble or the 7 predecessor at Exxon at that time? 8 A. I would think it would be Humble. 9 Q. It mentions material. Let's start with No. 1, 10 "Calcium Silicate (block). Manufacturer Johns-Manville, 11 'Thermobestos.'" 12 A. Okay. 13 Q. Was that an asbestos-containing material? 14 A. I think it was. 15 Q. And it says. Quantity, 13,485 board feet of blocks 16 from 1 inch to 3 inches thick. 17 A. Okay. 18 (Discussion off the record.) 19 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Do you have any reason to dispute 20 the amount of Thermobestos that was in the Baytown refinery in 21 ' 65? 22 A. No. 23 Q. And then it mentions, under that, "Amosite Asbestos." 24 Of course , we just talked about that a little while ago; 25 correct ? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005248 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. Right. Page 185 2 Q. It mentions, "Amosite Asbestos (pipe covering), 3 Manufacturer Pittsburgh-Corning, Unibestos." 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. And then it says, "Quantity, 31,375 feet of 1-inch 6 thick by 1/2-inch pipe size through 2-inch thick times 20-inch 7 pipe size IT 8 A. Okay. 9 Q. Is that a small amount? 10 A. Well, we mentioned earlier that at the refinery there 11 was over 600,000 miles of piping. 12 Q. Uh-huh. 13 A. So in terms of the overall length of piping in the 14 refinery. this would be a minor amount. 15 Q. We already talked about -- I don't know if -- the 16 next section says, "Ditto." Do you know what that means when 17 it says " Ditto" on the next section? Any idea? 18 A. Not really. 19 Q. And then it says "Ditto" on tees, and we already 20 talked about that. And then it mentions insulating cement. 21 Johns-Manville No. 450, 250 bags, 50-pound bags; correct? 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. Do you know what kind of material that was? 24 A. I'm not familiar with that specific product, no. I'd 25 say there was a -- there's at least a very good possibility WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005249 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 that it would contain some asbestos. Page 186 2 Q. Do you know what type of fibers, asbestos fibers it 3 would contain? 4 A. I think typically what we have found in J.M. products 5 was that it was primarily chrysotile. 6 Q. Do you know if any crocidolite asbestos fibers were 7 at the Baytown refinery in any product in the '60s? 8 MR. MANNING: Objection, form. 9 A. From the bulk sampling work that I'm familiar with, I 10 don't think they have found any. 11 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Do you know if there was any 12 Certainteed pipe -- and I may have asked you this before and 13 I'm sorry -- if there was any Certainteed pipe out at the Exxon 14 refinery in the '60s? 15 A. I do not know that. 16 Q. All right. I want to turn to Exhibit No. 8, and 17 we've talked about this at length already, and can you turn to 18 Exhibit 8 and tell us what that is? 19 A. That's the Roy Bonsib report that we've mentioned 20 several times from 1937. 21 Q. Yes, sir. And that was the July 1937 document? 22 A. Correct: 23 Q. The "Dust-Producing Operations in the Production of 24 Petroleum Products and Associated Activities, a Medico-Safety 25 Survey," by Mr. Bonsib, who was with Standard Oil? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005250 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. Correct. Page 187 2 Q. I want to ask you about certain sections of that 3 document. Obviously, we're not going over the whole thing 4 because it 's pretty thick. You've, again, testified about this 5 before in other depositions and other trial testimony; correct? 6 A. Right. 7 Q. I want to go to Page 27 of that document. But before 8 I get there -- and I jumped the gun and I apologize again -- 9 there's a forward that's written by Willard J. Denno, M.D., who 10 was the general medical director of Standard Oil at that 11 time -- 12 A. Yes . 13 Q. -- on Page 2. Do you -- 14 A. Right, right. 15 Q. What was his role; do you know, back at that time? 16 A. I think he was the medical director for Standard Oil 17 of New Jersey. 18 Q. Okay. He states at the top, and kind of 19 paraphrasing, it's the duty of the industry to protect its 20 employees. Would you agree with that? 21 A. Yes . 22 Q. And on the last paragraph of that forward, it says. 23 "The study confirms an opinion that dusty occupations 24 thoroughly understood and intelligently handled should result 25 in no serious disability." WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005251 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 188 1 Did I read that correctly? 2 A. Yes . 3 Q. And do you agree with that? 4 A. Yes . 5 Q. I want to go to Page 27 of that document. Hopefully, 6 our documents coincide with each other. And we had touched on 7 this earlier and I'd asked you some questions without really 8 looking at this, but Page 27 talks about insulating operations 9 in the refineries; correct? 10 A. Yes . 11 Q. And it talks about the different type of insulations 12 used and it says, "Insulation plays an important part in the 13 processing of petroleum products." You would agree with that; 14 correct ? 15 A. I would. 16 Q. It says the two types of insulating materials most 17 frequently used are the sponge felt and the 85 percent magnesia 18 and 15 percent asbestos; is that a correct -19 A. Yes . 20 Q. And it says the sponge felt is asbestos with ground 21 sponge to give dead air space and thus it creates the 22 effectiveness of the insulation. Is that what they 23 talk about -- 24 A. Yes . 25 Q. -- as its composition? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005252 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. Yes. Page 189 2 Q. Then it says generally speaking, about 85 percent of 3 insulator's work is with sponge felt and 15 percent with 4 85 percent magnesia insulation? 5 A. I believe that -- where did you see that? 6 Q. Yeah. 7 A. What part of that paragraph? Is that in the middle 8 or -- 9 Q. Yeah. It's actually at the last sentence on the 10 paragraph of insulating operations - 11 A. Okay. I see it, yes. Okay. 12 Q. Would you agree with that or have any reason to 13 dispute that? 14 A. I think at that time that was correct. I think -- I 15 think the proportion of products has changed dramatically since 16 then. 17 Q. Then it mentioned on that same sentence -- or the 18 last sentence, it says, "At one of the larger southern 19 refineries, about 300,000 square feet of sponge felt and 50,000 20 square feet of 85 percent magnesia are used." 21 Do you see that, where it talks about that. At 22 one of the" -- 23 A. What part of the page is that? 24 Q. It's Page 27, the last sentence of "Insulating 25 Operations," Section III, where it says, "At one of the larger WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005253 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 190 1 southern refineries, about 300,000 square feet of sponge felt 2 and 50,000 square feet of 85 percent magnesia are handled a 3 year." Do you see that? 4 A. Huh. 5 Q. The last sentence under "Insulating Operations," 6 first paragraph. 7 A. Oh, okay. 8 Q. Do you see that? 9 A. Yes . 10 Q. All right. And do you have any reason to dispute 11 that ? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Do you know what southern refinery they were talking 14 about? 15 A. I have no idea. 16 Q. And then going further down on Section B -- you know. 17 it has an A and a B under "Insulating Operations." Again, they 18 talk about what are the principle insulating operations and how 19 much dust is produced during those operations. Do you see that 20 section? 21 A. Yes . 22 Q. And they talk about the common insulation operations 23 at the refineries and the dust counts. 24 A. Okay. 25 Q. And they talk about certain operations which, I WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005254 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 think. we've already referenced -- Page 191 2 A. Right. 3 Q. -- some of them and what the dust counts were. And 4 you gave me some information just from your personal 5 recollection. Do you recall that? 6 A. Right. 7 Q. And on Page 27 through Page 28 -- 8 A. Right. 9 Q. -- they talk about some of these -- these dust 10 counts. 11 A. Right. 12 Q. And do you have any reason to dispute their results 13 as far as what these dust counts were in these particular 14 operations ? 15 A. Well, you have to put it in perspective because they 16 were measuring total dust and not asbestos. So these total 17 numbers are not for asbestos. It's for the mixed exposure. 18 the -- the filler and the binder. So when you take into 19 account the fact that asbestos is maybe, what, 15 percent of 20 the total particulate, you'd have to take 15 percent of these 21 numbers to equate it to an asbestos exposure. 22 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, nonresponsive. 23 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Let me just ask you about the 24 operations when they talked about total dust counts, and 25 they're talking about, on 27, 28, dust counts, particles per WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005255 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 cubic foot, 10 microns or less in size; correct? Page 192 2 A. I'm sorry. Where -- what are you referring to? 3 Q. Page 27 through 28. 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. Talking about the particular operations under 6 Section E , "Insulation Operations" -- 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. -- and what the total dust counts are. 9 A. Okay. 10 Q. Do you see that section? 11 A. Yes . 12 Q. And they mentioned certain things that were tested. 13 A. Right. 14 Q. For instance. Page 28, insulating a 750-pound 15 cracking coil accumulator -- 16 A. Right. 17 Q. -- and they found at peak, particles per cubic foot. 18 4,502,880? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. Treating a plant acid suction line, average 821,820? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. Insulating cracking coil hot oil lines with pipe 23 covering peak -- 24 A. Do you want to talk about the significance of those 25 numbers ? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005256 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 193 1 Q. No. I don't want to talk about the significance of 2 the numbers. What I'm asking you is what the report found 3 first; okay? 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. Insulating cracking coil hot oil lines with pipe 6 covering. 7,788,000 peak sawing. 7 Did I read that correctly? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Crushing scrap asbestos insulation. 85 percent 10 magnesia. at peak 27,527,040? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. Is that correct? 13 A. Right. 14 Q. Page 29, crushing old cork asbestos insulation. 15 20,016,178 dust count average? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. And then finally -- well, going to Page 51, and let 18 me just -- and we can go to that later, but it says dumping 19 pure asbestos floats in the mixing kettle -- 20 MR. MANNING: He's not there yet. 21 A. Okay. 22 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Are you there? I'm sorry, 23 Mr. Larsor . 24 A. Yeah. 25 Q. Page 51? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005257 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. Okay. Page 194 2 Q. Dumping pure asbestos floats into mixing kettle f 3 8,269,440 average -- 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. -- dust count; is that correct? 6 A. Yes . 7 Q. And, again, I asked you a question earlier. Do you 8 know if all of these operations or any of them were going on at 9 the Exxon refinery when Mr. Oney was there? 10 A. I think probably very few. 11 Q. Which ones do you think were going on there at that 12 time when he was there? 13 A. Possibly old cork insulation. That's -- that's -- 14 was no longer in use. Crushing scrap asbestos would not be 15 done . And as far as the other operations in terms of 16 insulation , something comparable to insulating a 12-inch steam 17 line would have been done. The other operations on 28 may have 18 been done at the time when Mr. Oney was there. 19 Q. Okay. Anything else? 20 A. No. 21 Q. What information do you have that some of those were 22 done during the time that he was there and some were not done? 23 What information are you drawing from? 24 A. Well, based on the fact that crushing old cork 25 insulation , for example, it's my -- it's my understanding WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005258 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 195 1 that that -- that type of insulation was phased out in the 2 '50s, so that wouldn't have been done. And as far as crushing 3 scrap asbestos, that was no longer done after about the '50s. 4 Those are two operations that are listed on Page 29. 5 Some of these other ones very well -- something 6 similar to that could have been done at the time Mr. Oney was 7 there in 1960. I can't say one way or another if they were or 8 were not. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. But it's possible that they were. 11 Q. All right. Thanks. 12 I'm going to go to Page 52, and it's actually 13 the first complete paragraph where it starts with, "Recent 14 investigations." Do you see that paragraph? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And it says, "Recent investigations have indicated 17 that the inhalation of asbestos particles 10 microns or less in 18 size is even more hazardous than was originally believed, and 19 that in order to prevent harmful effects, the concentration 20 should be kept below 5 million particles (10 microns or less) 21 per cubic foot. The physiological effects have already been 22 discussed under 'ASBESTOSIS' so need not be given any further 23 consideration. Men handling asbestos floats should be reguired 2 4 to wear approved respirator." 25 Did I read that correctly? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005259 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. Correct. Page 196 2 Q. And do you agree with that? 3 A. Yes . 4 Q. Was Exxon aware in 1937, Mr. Larson, that medical 5 monitoring and examinations should be done on employees in 6 order to ensure protection from asbestos exposure? 7 A. Yes . 8 MR. MANNING: Objection, form. 9 MR. CAPPOLINO: Basis? 10 MR. MANNING: Calls for speculation. 11 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Do you know the answer to that 12 question? 13 A. All I know is that historically Exxon has provided 14 medical surveillance for people that handle asbestos-containing 15 materials 16 Q. And when did that start again? 17 A. I believe it was in the '30s or '40s. 18 Q. Do you know if -- if during that period of time other 19 refining petroleum companies did the same thing? 20 A. I don't know the answer to that. 21 Q. On Page 49, just flipping back a few pages, sir, I 22 noticed the Bonsib report. And this is on the first complete 23 paragraph on Page 49. It cites a Dr. Irving Clark. Do you see 24 that ? 25 A. Yes . WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005260 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 197 1 Q. Do you know or have any idea who that gentleman was? 2 A. I do not. 3 Q. And they cite his work. Dr. Clark's, "Dust Hazards 4 and the Prevention of Injury from the Same," which was read at 5 a meeting of government officials in the industry at Boston 6 Massachusetts, May 21st, 1931; is that right? 7 A. Yes . 8 Q. And then I think it says here, that quoted paragraph. 9 part of it , it says, "No matter how well a workman is 10 protected. he should be kept under medical supervision and have 11 a periodic examination of the heart and lungs. In addition. 12 the x-ray should be employed freely in order to detect early 13 signs of fibrosis in the lungs." 14 Did I read that correctly? 15 A. Yes . 16 Q. Is it your testimony, based on your knowledge, that 17 Exxon did this type of medical surveillance from 1931 on? 18 A. I can't give you the specific year, but it was in the 19 '30s or '40s. 20 Q. And do you agree that's something that should be 21 done? 22 A. I think it's a -- a very good practice. 23 Q. Why would it be a very good practice? 24 A. To detect any disease prior to it becoming -- prior 25 to showing any symptoms. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005261 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 198 1 Q. Okay. This -- this report, this Bonsib report. do 2 you know if it also talked about welding operations? 3 A. I think it did. 4 Q. And I'm going to try to turn to that section. Do you 5 recall - - and while I turn to it or if you can find it -- what 6 they discussed with regard to welding? I believe that's on 7 Page 30. I'm sorry. Are you at Page 30? 8 MR. MANNING: Getting there. 9 A. Not quite. Okay. 10 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) It talks about welding and 11 cutting operations ? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. It says here, "Welding has never been considered a 14 dust-producing operation. However, our studies and those of 15 others indicate that the use of the modern coated electrodes or 16 rods produces a large amount of dust in addition to the fumes 17 which are involved. An electric arc is used for most of the 18 welding around refineries." 19 Do you have any reason to dispute that or 20 disagree with that? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Going to Page -- well, actually, it would be Page 35. 23 I don't think there was a page number at the top. If you could 24 turn to that page -- it was 35, but it's cut off -- where it 25 says, "Fume or Dust Produced by Arc Welding." Do you see that WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005262 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 section? Page 199 2 A. Yes . 3 Q. All right. And then going under that table, and it ' s 4 a quoted section, it says, "It is apparent that considerable 5 quantities of dust are found in any arc welding operation." 6 Did I read that correctly? 7 A. Yes . 8 Q. Going further down in that paragraph or the last 9 paragraph on that page, the quoted paragraph, do you see the 10 last two words of that paragraph, "Again, the" -- 11 A. Yes . 12 Q. And going to the next page, it says, "Again, the 13 coverings of a certain type of electrode contain asbestos." Do 14 you see that? 15 A. Yes . 16 Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not Exxon, other than 17 this discussion of welding operations, did any type of study on 18 welders and whether or not they were exposed to any asbestos 19 dust from welding operations? 20 A. I'm not aware of any that were done internally to 21 Exxon or Humble, but I'm aware of some studies that Lincoln has 22 done more recently about that. 23 Q. Going to Page 38 of that particular Bonsib report. if 24 you'll turn there real quickly, the last paragraph on that 25 page -- WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005263 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. Okay. Page 200 2 Q. -- itsays, "It is becoming more andmore recognized 3 that persons engaged in cutting and welding operations either 4 by arc or flame should have respiratory protection in all work 5 where there is a possibility of the workmen breathing fumes and 6 dust created." 7 Did I read that correctly? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. From anindustrial hygienestandpoint, do you agree 10 with that? 11 A. I think it would depend if they were at or above the 12 threshold limit value for the various components. 13 Q. Okay. I want to turn to Page 74 of the Bonsib 14 report. 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. Mr. Larson, this talks a little bit about control 17 measures or recommendations for reducing dust hazards, doesn't 18 it? 19 A. Okay. Yes. 20 Q. Is that correct? 21 A. Yes . 22 Q. And, for instance, it talks about suppression of dust 23 at its source, provision of proper ventilation and the use of 24 masks being recommended? 25 A. Yes . WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005264 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 201 1 Q. And then it talks about the different measures, such 2 as design plant for dust control; provide building ventilation; 3 store dusty materials in dust-type bins; enclose material 4 handling equipment; isolate dusty processes; provide wet 5 methods of operation; design equipment to control dust; provide 6 exhaust systems; establish maintenance and good housekeeping 7 procedures; provide respirators; and does it mention those 8 control measures? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. For what purpose are those control measures 11 recommended in this report? 12 A. To minimize the dust exposure. 13 Q. And would that include dust exposure from asbestos? 14 A. Yes. Although you have to recognize here, this 15 would -- well, okay. That's -- I'll just leave it at that. 16 Q. Okay. Going to the last -- I want to just ask you 17 about Page 81 under the "Conclusion" section of the report. 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. It mentions in the first paragraph a gentleman by the 20 name of Mr. Dan Harrington, who was the chief at the Health and 21 Safety Branch, United States Bureau of Mines, who came to a 22 conclusion in the report that he wrote in "Engineering" and it 23 looks like "Min. Journal." I don't know what that is. Do you 24 see that? 25 A. Yes. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005265 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 202 1 Q. And he says, "In the maze of uncertainties connected 2 with almost all phases of the causation and diagnosis of dust 3 disease, about the only really well-determined fact available 4 is that breathing large quantities of dust or possibly of 5 certain dusts over extended periods is likely under some 6 conditions to be harmful to health and that subsequent 7 alleviation or cure is difficult or impossible." 8 Did I read that correctly? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do you agree with that? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And then the last paragraph of that page where he 13 continues to talk, it quotes him as saying, "One common-sense 14 answer is that any atmosphere in which dust is visible to the 15 naked eye is certainly too dusty to be breathed with safety by 16 human beings, and the wise, farsighted human employer will 17 immediately start to decrease the dust content in any 18 atmosphere where dust is visible." 19 Did I read that correctly? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And do you agree with that? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And the last page it mentions some folks who helped, 2 4 I guess, or were involved in the study. Dr. A.J. Lanza, do you 25 see his name? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005266 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. Yes . Page 203 2 Q. Do you know who he was? 3 A. Yes . 4 Q. Who was he? 5 A. He was with Metropolitan Life. I think they actually 6 have that affiliation listed under his name. 7 Q. And Exxon or its predecessors were aware that 8 Dr. Lanza had written publications in peer-reviewed journals 9 and in other publications on asbestos and the diseases it 10 caused? 11 A. I believe that's true. 12 Q. And then this Mr. H.N. Blakeslee, Department of 13 Accident Prevention, American Petroleum Institute, do you know 14 who that fellow was? 15 A. I would -- I don't know specifically, but I -- I 16 would assume that he had something to do with occupational 17 health coordination within the A.P.I. 18 Q. Okay. The next exhibit -- and I know we just 19 mentioned this -- this is an article. Exhibit 9, a publication 20 called, " Asbestosis," by Dr. Lanza. 21 A. All right. 22 Q. And have you seen that document before? 23 A. I don't know. I may have, but I can't say for sure. 24 Q. Do you know whether or not Exxon had this particular 25 publication in any of its files -- WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005267 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 204 1 A. Do you know -- can you give me the date for this? 2 Q. Yeah. This was called, "Asbestosis," A.J. Lanza, 3 M.D., and it was read before the Section on Preventative and 4 Industrial Medicine and Public Health at the '86 Annual Session 5 of the American Medical Association in Atlantic City, New 6 Jersey, June 13th, 1935. Do you know whether or not Exxon ever 7 had that publication in its possession at any time? 8 A. I can't say for certain, but there's a very good 9 possibility that they did. 10 Q. When you say, "a very good possibility that they 11 did," what do you mean by that? 12 A. In that, I think, from what I've known and have 13 learned over the years, that they tried to keep track of 14 developments in the medical field that pertain to the company. 15 Q. Okay. There's no doubt in your mind, based on 16 everything you reviewed and your knowledge of Exxon-Mobil and 17 its predecessors, that that company knew about the hazards of 18 asbestos dust going back to the '30s? 19 A. I think that's a reasonable statement. 20 Q. Exhibit No. 10, do you have that there, Mr. Larson? 21 A. Yes, I do. 22 Q. Exhibit No. 10 is called, "Industrial Hygiene 23 Foundation of America, Inc., Industrial Hygiene Survey of the 2 4 Baton Rouge Refinery, Louisiana Division, ESSO Standard Oil 25 Company" in 1949; correct? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005268 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. Correct. Page 205 2 Q. Have you seen that document before? 3 A. I think I have. 4 Q. And in what context did you see that? 5 A. Let me look at it. I'm not sure if I have or not. 6 This has to do with Baton Rouge. 7 Q. Yes, sir. 8 A. I haven't really been involved in -- I don't think 9 I've been involved in any cases involving Baton Rouge, so I 10 probably have not seen this. 11 Q. Okay. Does this appear to be a document that the 12 Industrial Hygiene Foundation of America did a survey at the 13 Baton Rouge refinery? 14 A. That's what it appears to be, yes. 15 Q. And did you -- have you ever been to the Baton Rouge 16 refinery? 17 A. Yes . 18 Q. Do you know whether or not any of the operations or 19 procedures at the Baton Rouge facility were similar to those in 20 place at the Baytown facility where Mr. Oney worked during the 21 time Mr. Oney worked -- 22 A. Somewhere on the refinery side, although Baton Rouge 23 is a large chemical complex which Baytown -- which was 24 different from Baytown. 25 Q. Just bear with me here real quick. Could you turn WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005269 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 206 1 to -- and. again, this is kind of an appendix. It's Table 4. 2 It's Romar numeral xii and it's called Table 4, if you could 3 turn to that. 4 A. Table 4? 5 Q. Yeah. Do you see that? 6 A. Yes. I see Table 4. 7 Q. And Table 4, does it indicate that asbestos was 8 listed as a substance that welders, masons and laborers would 9 likely be exposed to during turnarounds? 10 A. Is that a different Table 4? 11 Q. Do you have the section where it says, "Operation or 12 Location, Catalytic Cracking Unit, Substance or Conditions, 13 Asbestos, Employee Group Affected"? Is that on -- 14 A. The title of my Table 4 is, "Exposures of Low 15 Intensity to Materials of a Low Order of Toxicity." 16 Q. All right. I'm going to hand you what I have. Tell 17 me whether or not you can spot this document in yours. 18 A. Oh, it's continued. Okay. It's the second page of 19 Table 4. 20 Q. I'm sorry. 21 A. Yes, I see -- I see asbestos listed. 22 Q. Have you ever seen this particular document before? 23 A. I don't think so. 24 Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not that information -25 or would you have any reason to dispute that information? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005270 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. No. I think it's correct. Page 207 2 Q. Okay. I want to turn to pages -- I believe it would 3 be Page 76 through 77 of that particular exhibit. Can you turn 4 further on? 5 A. Oh, let's see. Okay. 6 Q. And this is called, "Mason Division." 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. And the brick masons, what was their job? 9 A. Brick masons? Well, they can do a variety of things. 10 but they worked on furnaces, they worked on building 11 construction, on various tasks involving brick work. 12 Q. Okay. And it has, "This division includes 63 brick 13 masons, 56 concrete and sandblast workers and 72 insulators." 14 Why would insulators be in the mason division? 15 A. I'm not guite sure. 16 Q. The last paragraph on Page 76, I want to ask you 17 about that where it says, "The replacement of brick in the 18 catalyst regenerators in fluid catalytic cracking units is 19 known as a dusty job." Do you agree with that? 20 A. I'd agree. 21 Q. "The greatest source of dust is the disturbance of 22 residual catalyst in the chamber. Of secondary importance is 23 asbestos dust which is present to an unknown extent." 24 Did I read that correctly? 25 A. Yes . WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005271 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 208 1 Q. All right. And do you have any reason to dispute 2 that? 3 A. I guess the only question I would have, if they're 4 saying asbestos dust is present to an unknown extent, it seems 5 to me that there's an uncertainty if they even know that there 6 is asbestos. So that's my only comment about that, but it's 7 certainly possible. 8 Q. Could you -- 9 A. But also, it goes on to say it's probably minor. 10 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, nonresponsive. 11 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Could you turn to the next 12 exhibit , Exhibit No. 11? 13 A. Okay. Okay. 14 Q. Can you identify for us what Exhibit No. 11 is? 15 A. What -- what it is? 16 Q. Yes, sir. 17 A. It appears to be a transmittal letter from Fred 18 Venable to Van Hendricks. 19 Q. And have you seen that document before? 20 A. I don't think so. 21 Q. This document -- and, again, I want to give you a 22 chance to look at it. This is a '51 letter that notes the 23 transmittal of information on collection and counting of 24 asbestos dusts and was it from ESSO's New Jersey headquarters 25 to Fred Venable of ESSO's Baton Rouge facility? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005272 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 209 1 A. It was actually from Fred Venable of Baton Rouge to 2 Van Hendricks of the medical research division. 3 MR. MANNING: You are saying that backwards, I 4 think. 5 A. No. It's from Van Hendricks of the medical research 6 division to Fred Venable of Baton Rouge. 7 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Does this discuss asbestos? 8 A. Yes . 9 Q. What does it say about asbestos? 10 A. Let's see. "Frank Church has prepared some material 11 on this subject and we have obtained a copy of Public Health 12 Services Bulletin No. 241, 'A Study of Asbestosis in the 13 Asbestos Textile Industry.' This material is attached for your 14 information." 15 Q. All right. Could you turn to Exhibit No. 12, 16 Mr. Larson? And you can -- yeah, those tabs kind of give you 17 an idea. 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. Can you identify what Exhibit No. 12 is, sir? 20 A. Let's see. It appears to be a letter from William 21 Foster of the Department of Labor and Industry, State of 22 Pennsylvania, to Fred Venable with ESSO in Baton Rouge. 23 Q. And it's regarding transmittal of information on 24 asbestos -- asbestosis? 25 A. Correct. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005273 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 210 1 Q. All right. What year is that? Does it have a year? 2 A. That's '51. 3 Q. And does that discuss asbestos? 4 A. It appears to. 5 Q. What does it say? 6 A. It says, "In reply to your request of October 17th, 7 we are mailing, under separate cover. Special Bulletins 8 Nos . 37 and 42 entitled 'Asbestosis.'" 9 Q. All right. Let's turn to Exhibit No. 13. 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. And have you seen Exhibit No. 13 before? 12 A. I think I have. 13 Q. What is Exhibit No. 13? 14 A. It's the Safety Manual for the Production Department 15 of Humble Oil. 16 Q. All right. And have you read through that document 17 before you saw it today? 18 A. I think I've -- I've skimmed through it, yes. 19 Q. All right. And does this apply to all plants in the 20 Humble Oi] and Refining Company in May of 1953? 21 A. No. It's strictly limited to their production 22 department . 23 Q. What was the production department? 24 A. Exploration and producing. It's drilling and 25 producing oil. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005274 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 211 1 Q. Does this safety manual anywhere make any reference 2 to either asbestos dust specifically or pneumoconiosis in 3 general? 4 A. I wouldn't expect it to because you wouldn't have 5 that exposure in drilling. 6 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, nonresponsive. 7 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) My question again to you was. 8 does this 1953 safety manual make any reference to either 9 asbestos dust specifically or pneumoconiosis in general? 10 MR. MANNING: Bruce, just -- you can read the 11 whole document and then respond. 12 MR. CAPPOLINO: Well, we'll do that during a 13 break because I'm not going to waste my time having him read 14 through the document when it's been in the Exxon documents 15 forever and he's had a chance to review it. And I'm not going 16 to run that route again. 17 A. I guess my answer is no, but it's not relevant to 18 refining. 19 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) All right. Have you read that 20 document before to see whether or not it refers to asbestosis 21 or asbestos dust or pneumoconiosis? 22 A. This particular document? 23 Q. Yes . 24 A. Yes, but it doesn't. 25 Q. All right. Could you turn to Exhibit No. 14? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005275 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 212 1 MR. MANNING: After this exhibit, could we take 2 a break? 3 MR. CAPPOLINO: Yeah. Thanks. 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Can you identify what Exhibit 6 No. 14 is ? 7 A. Let's see. It is a document from a national accounts 8 representative with Union Asbestos & Rubber Company to -- to a 9 Mr. George Wilkening with ESSO Standard in Linden, New Jersey, 10 and it -- it involves Unibestos insulation. 11 Q. Is that what the company was called back then? 12 Exxon, was it called ESSO? 13 A. I think so. 14 Q. And in this particular document -- have you seen this 15 document before? 16 A. I don't believe so. 17 Q. Was this document ever provided to you by the lawyers 18 for Exxon -Mobil? 19 A. I don't think so. 20 Q. And in this document doesn't it state -- or in 1956 21 one of the insulation suppliers. Union Asbestos & Rubber 22 Company, gave information to ESSO showing that Unibestos 23 composition included 63 to 70 percent amosite asbestos? 24 A. Right. 25 Q. And do you have any reason to dispute that? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005276 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. No . Page 213 2 Q. Do you know the carcinogenic ability of amosite 3 asbestos versus the other asbestos fibers, as far as your 4 industrial hygiene knowledge? 5 A. I do. 6 Q. And what is that? 7 A. It's quite a bit substantially higher as we know it 8 today. 9 Q. Okay. Could you turn to Exhibit No. 15? 10 MR. MANNING: Can we take a break? 11 MR. CAPPOLINO: I'm sorry. Yeah. Thanks. 12 (Recess from 2:51 to 3:02.) 13 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Mr. Larson, are we ready to 14 begin? 15 A. (No audible response.) 16 Q. Mr. Larson, I want to go to Exhibit No. 15. 17 A. Okay. 18 Q. And have you seen a copy of this document before? 19 A. I don't think so. 20 Q. And this was not provided to you by lawyers for 21 Exxon-Mobil; correct? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. This is called, "ESSO Standard Oil Company, Baton 24 Rouge Refinery, Mechanical Technical Service Department" -- 25 A. Okay. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005277 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 214 1 Q. -- "Methods and Materials for Insulation of Steam 2 Traced Lines"? 3 A. Yes . 4 Q. Did I read that correctly? 5 A. Yes . 6 Q. Does that involve steam lines? Is that what that is? 7 A. A steam trace line would be a product line, a very 8 viscous product that you would apply a small steam line to, to 9 keep it viscous and flowing. 10 Q. All right. 11 A. So it's used in not a very large portion of the 12 refinery 13 Q. And does this appear to be a document -- an ESSO 14 Standard Oil Company document? 15 A. Right. I don't see a date though. 16 Q. Okay. It mentions under "Recommendations," it says. 17 "Expand the stock of rigid insulation to include the sizes 18 required to insulate steam trace lines. Calcium silicate or 19 Unibestos are equally satisfactory." 20 A. Okay. 21 Q. Did I read that correctly? 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. And then further down it mentions Unibestos and 24 calcium silicate and talks about them. 25 A. Okay. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005278 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 215 1 Q. And does this indicate that ESSO was wanting to 2 continue to use Unibestos? 3 A. I believe it does. It's -- I don't -- do we have any 4 idea when this was? 5 Q. No, sir. I don't have a date on it and I'm sorry 6 about that. 7 A. Well, clearly it was prior to 1970. 8 Q. All right. Say, if it was in 1958, sometime around 9 there, would that sound more likely? 10 MR. COSMICH: Object to the form. 11 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Or do you know? 12 A. I couldn't disagree with that. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. But let's clarify that this is Baton Rouge and not 15 Baytown. 16 Q. I understand. 17 Now, if it was -- let me ask you this. Do you 18 know whether or not there were asbestos-free alternatives to 19 the Unibestos and the calcium silicate insulation, such as spun 20 mineral wool or fiberglass? 21 MR. COSMICH: Object to the form. 22 A. I'm looking at this memo. Apparently, they 23 considered those two, but from a performance standpoint , they 24 recommended the Unibestos and calcium silicate. 25 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) And you see that on this memo WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005279 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 216 1 under "Discussion," where it talks about "sponge felt, a 2 laminated asbestos paper"? And then it says, "During the 3 investigation, four other types of insulation were evaluated," 4 and it mentioned the spun mineral wool, fiberglass and, of 5 course, the Unibestos and calcium silicate; correct? 6 A. Right. 7 Q. But despite -- and, I guess, despite the previous 8 document, Exhibit No. 14, where it shows the composition of 9 Unibestos pipe insulation to be 60 up to 70 percent amosite 10 asbestos, ESSO continued to want to use Unibestos; is that 11 correct. sased on these documents? 12 A. Again, we don't -- we don't have a date here. 13 Q. All right. Could you turn to the next exhibit, which 14 is Exhibit No. 16? 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. And have you ever seen a copy of that document 17 before? 18 A. I don't think so. 19 Q. This is also called, "ESSO Standard Oil Company, 20 Baton Rouge Refinery, Insulation Study," and is there a date on 21 here or not? 22 A. I don't see one. 23 Q. All right. Did it also in this document indicate 24 that ESSO Standard Oil refinery still wanted to continue to use 25 Unibestos and Thermobestos as standard pipe insulation? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005280 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. Let's see. I think, yes, among others. Page 217 2 Q. All right. Let's turn to Exhibit No. 17. And it 3 appears to be a news article out of the ESSO News, and it looks 4 to me like that was dated May 5th, 1961 at the top. Do you see 5 that ? 6 A. I think -- yeah, I can. 7 Q. Have you ever seen this particular article before or 8 a copy of this? 9 A. Again, this is a Baton Rouge document. I'm not 10 really that well versed on Baton Rouge issues. 11 Q. Do you know what the ESSO News was? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Do you know if that was a publication put out by ESSO 14 that went to plants or workers or contractors? 15 A. It very well could have. 16 Q. In this article that you can see, does it indicate 17 that the Baton Rouge refinery was using a metal-jacketed 18 version of Thermobestos, which was an asbestos-containing 19 calcium silicate insulation? 20 A. I think that's the gist of it, yes. 21 Q. Does it further indicate in this article that 22 unjacketed Thermobestos was in wide use at that facility? If 23 you want to look at it, that's fine. 24 A. Let's see. I won't -- I don't -- it doesn't jump off 25 the page at me, but I won't -- I won't dispute that. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005281 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 Q. Do you know what Thermobestos was? Page 218 2 A. It's pipe insulation. 3 Q. Do you know if that was used at the Baytown refinery? 4 And I know we referenced something to that earlier, but do you 5 know? 6 A. I think that probably it was. 7 Q. Could you turn to Exhibit No. 18? 8 A. (Witness complies.) 9 Q. And this, again, is a document called, "List of 10 Potentially Hazardous Materials," dated June 6th, 1961. 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. And have you ever seen this document before? 13 A. I think I have. 14 Q. And when did you see this document, sir? I'm sorry. 15 A. Just in reviewing some exhibits to, like. 16 depositions. 17 Q. All right. Does this particular document -- and does 18 this appear to be a document that was generated by ESSO or 19 Exxon-Mobil's predecessors? 20 A. From the initials, it looks like it was generated by 21 Fred Venable. 22 Q. And, again, he was -- what position did he have with 23 Exxon? 24 A. He was the industrial hygienist at Baton Rouge. 25 Q. Can you tell us whether or not it lists asbestos as a WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005282 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 potentially hazardous material? Page 219 2 A. It does. 3 Q. And does it talk about what particular plants it 4 listed as a hazardous material or does it just talk about it 5 generally 7 6 A. I don't see any reference to plants. I just see a 7 list here 8 Q. All right. Could you turn to Exhibit No. 19? 9 A. Okay. 10 Q. And have you seen this exh ibit before? 11 A. I don't think -- again, th is is a Baton Rouge 12 document. I don't believe I've seen it. 13 Q. All right. Does this appe ar to be a memorandum to 14 Dr. Neill K. Weaver from Fred Venabl e with the subject, 15 "Insulators' Exposures to Asbestos," dated 5-13 -64 out of the 16 Baton Rouge, Louisiana facility? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And in this document does it discuss on the second 19 paragraph the types of insulation or asbestos-containing 20 products that were used in the 1940s and early 1950s with 21 regard to insulation for high-temper ature lines ? 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. It lists 302 cement; corre ct? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. Which is Johns-Manville? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005283 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. Yes . Page 220 2 Q. It mentions Unibestos? 3 A. Yes . 4 Q. Thermobestos ? 5 A. Yes . 6 Q. Calsite? 7 A. Yes . 8 Q. And Careytemp as materials used during that time? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. All right. It mentions also in this document that 11 "Asbestos felt paper and asbestos sponge felted insulation was 12 also used to wrap cork insulated lines on cold piping"? 13 A. Yes . 14 Q. It mentions loose asbestos cement was received in 15 bags and dumped into mixing troughs and stirred with water and 16 applied wet, and that some asbestos dust would likely be 17 released in the first stage of this mixing? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. And do you have any reason to dispute that? 20 A. If -- if you review Hammond's depositions and his 21 memo, he talks about the fact that in the past, in the early 22 years, there was potential dust exposure from mixing the 23 asbestos cement, but he also goes into the procedures that were 24 implemented to prevent that dusting from occurring. 25 So I would say, yes, in the early days, as he WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005284 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 221 1 says, in the '40s and early '50s there probably was some dust 2 exposure; but beginning -- well, in the latter years, that 3 would have been minimized. 4 Q. Does this also talk about asbestos - 5 MR. CAPPOLINO: Let me object as nonresponsive. 6 I'm sorry. 7 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) This also talks about asbestos 8 magnesia insulation continued to be cut and fitted using hand 9 saws? 10 A. 11 Q. 12 it's the p 13 see that? 14 the fourth 15 A. 16 Q. 17 sentence t 18 A. 19 Q. ' 20 A. 21 Q. 22 "These are 23 magnesia i 24 A. 25 Q. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005285 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 222 1 hand saws (formerly power sawing was done about 10 years ago)." 2 A. Right. 3 Q. And do you have any reason to dispute that? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Under the -- a little further down, I think it's the 6 paragraph -- the second paragraph from the bottom, where it 7 says, "In recent years," do you see that? 8 A. Yes . 9 Q. It says, "Some asbestos - calcium silicate insulation 10 (Owens-Corning Kaylo) is used today." 11 Did I read that correctly? 12 A. Yes . 13 Q. And it says, "Johns-Manville 450 asbestos cement is 14 used by insulators." Do you also see that section in that same 15 paragraph 7 16 A. Yes . 17 Q. And do you have any reason to dispute that? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Finally, the last paragraph says, "In addition to the 20 work with the insulator in applying asbestos materials, it 21 should be remembered that their work of removing old insulation 22 is likely to produce dry dust exposures also." 23 Did I read that correctly? 24 A. Yes . 25 Q. And do you agree or disagree with that or dispute WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005286 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 that? Page 223 2 A. It's -- it doesn't -- it's not consistent with what 3 I've read in Jim Hammond's testimony 4 Q. All right. Could you turn to Exhibit No. 20? 5 A. Okay. 6 Q. And can you identify what Exhibit No. 20 is? 7 A. Let's see. It's a letter from McCarty-Branton to 8 Fred Venable with Humble. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. And it lists the percentage of fibers in specific 11 products 12 Q. All right. And it's dated November 23rd, 1964? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. "Thermobestos," it said, " 10 percent Grade 4 15 Chrysoti le Asbestos Fiber"? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. "450 Cement - 17 percent Grade 6 Chrysotile Asbestos 18 Fiber"; is that correct? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. All right. Could you turn to Exhibit No. 21? 21 A. Okay. 22 Q. Do you have that in front of you, Mr. Larson? 23 A. Yes . 24 Q. And can you identify what Exhibit No. 21 is? 25 A. It's an ESSO Research and Engineering publication WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005287 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 224 1 titled, " Summary of the Conference on Biological Effects of 2 Asbestos, " dated October 19th through the 21st, 1964. 3 Q. And who is the author? 4 A. Probably Dr. Eckhardt. 5 Q. Who was Dr. Eckhardt? 6 A. Eckhardt was the director of ESSO's medical research 7 division. 8 Q. Do you have any knowledge whether or not anybody at 9 Exxon or its predecessors tried to prevent Dr. Eckhardt from 10 publishing any of his materials on hazardous materials? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Have you seen a copy of this document before? 13 A. Yes . 14 Q. And does this document show or reveal anything about 15 the company trying to stay abreast of the state of asbestos 16 knowledge 17 A. Yes, it does. 18 Q. And does this paper talk about animal experiments on 19 asbestos toxicity, talk about a paper that found extensive 20 fibrotic changes in the lungs of guinea pigs exposed to 21 chrysotile, crocidolite, amosite and other asbestos fibers? 22 A. I believe it does. 23 Q. Do you know whether or not this study reported that 24 it was difficult to contain the dissemination of airborne 25 asbestos fibers; even guinea pigs, in a controlled group not WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005288 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 225 1 intended to breathe the asbestos showed lungs laden with fibers 2 upon postmortem examination? Do you know if it discussed that? 3 A. I believe it does. 4 Q. Did this article discuss the results of the 5 epidemiological study by Dr. Selikoff, Churg and Hammond, "The 6 Asbestosis Among Insulation Workers in the United States"? 7 A. Yes . 8 Q. Did this document discuss any type of household 9 exposure and any type of asbestos-related disease caused by 10 fibers being brought home on the clothing of workers? 11 A. Let's see. 12 Q. And I believe that would probably be at Pages 2 13 through 4 14 A. Well, it's talking about Wagner's work out of South 15 Africa. And I know that work did make reference to a household 16 case, but I don't -- I don't see it yet. It's probably in here 17 somewhere 18 Q. That's okay. Let me ask you, on Page 5 of that 19 document -- 20 A. All right. 21 Q. -- does it talk about a Texas physician indicating 22 that he had seen 10 cases of lung cancer in asbestos workers. 23 all of whom worked in the petroleum refining industry? 24 A. On Page 5? 25 Q. Yeah. Is that on Page 5? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005289 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 226 1 A. Huh. I can't find it, at least offhand. Oh, wait a 2 minute . Yes . 3 Q. All right. I'm sorry. Let me just go back a little 4 bit here. On Page 5 of that article also, does it talk about 5 Dr. Eckhardt's evaluation of a presentation by a Johns-Manville 6 representative whose paper in the estimation of ESSO's employee 7 was defensive in apparently trying to protect the asbestos 8 industry in the United States from the accusation of having 9 produced pulmonary or mesothelioma tumors? 10 A. Yes . 11 Q. Does it further state on that page that the Exxon 12 physician further concluded that the very poor paper was 13 primarily intended to confuse people? 14 A. Yes . 15 Q. On Page 6 of that paper, I wanted to ask you 16 something about that. Is there an indication there of the 17 reaction of defendant's employee to the totality -- or of 18 Exxon's employee to the totality of the conference where it 19 says, "All in all, I would say that this three-day conference 20 clearly suggests that exposure to asbestos is a most serious 21 situation , and I would certainly agree with Dr. Gilson when he 22 says that it is very important to eliminate all unnecessary 23 exposure to asbestos dust in the future"? 24 A. Yes . 25 Q. And that "It would seem important for us in the WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005290 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 petroleum industry to do epidemiological studies on the Page 227 2 insulators who work in the petroleum industry and, in addition. 3 to institute additional dust control measures"? 4 A. Right. 5 Q. And then it says, "Certainly this appears to be a 6 problem that cannot be taken lightly, and certainly it would 7 seem that very careful control of exposures to asbestos 8 throughout refinery operations should be instituted"? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. And, "This would include not only the insulators 11 themselves but also those who are tearing down older units 12 where insulation may be present around pipes and asbestos dust 13 exposure may develop." 14 Did I read that correctly? 15 A. Yes . 16 Q. Do you agree with those recommendations? 17 A. Yes . 18 Q. All right. And then finally on that page, on Page 6, 19 does the author state, "Again, in my mind there is no question. 20 nor was there at this conference" -- "nor was there at this 21 conference about the elimination of asbestos from the 22 industry"? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. And do you agree with that? 25 A. Yes . WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005291 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 228 1 Q. I want to turn to Page -- or Exhibit No. 22. And, 2 Mr. Larson, can you identify what Exhibit No. 22 is? 3 A. It's a letter from Dick Brief to Van Hendricks dated 4 1966 -- 5 Q. Okay. Did -6 A. -- regarding the asbestos content of certain 7 insulating materials. 8 Q. That was May 10th, 1966? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. And you said Dick Brief, Richard Brief. Did you know 11 him? 12 A. Yes . 13 Q. How do you know Mr. Brief? 14 A. He was basically Van Hendrick's successor as the 15 director of industrial hygiene for ESSO Research and 16 Engineering. 17 Q. Have you seen this document before? 18 A. I believe I have. 19 Q. Okay. And did this document, this report from ESSO's 20 Medical Research Division of the Standard Oil headquarters. 21 show that Thermobestos and 85 percent magnesia insulation still 22 contained asbestos ? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. And that it was in place at certain parts or certain 25 of the Exxon refineries? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005292 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. Right. Page 229 2 Q. Can you identify Exhibit No. 23? And I think we've 3 talked about this one already, but we haven't attached it 4 formally. What is Exhibit No. 23? 5 A. It's the Texas Department of Health Regulation for 6 asbestos and other -- other hazardous materials. 7 Q. And on Page 5 of the 1958 regulations, does it 8 state -- let me ask you this. The scope of this rule includes 9 all places of employment in the State of Texas; is that 10 correct ? 11 A. Yes, as it pertains to the threshold limit values. 12 And questions have come up from time to time regarding 13 asbestos, but I'll just leave it at that. 14 Q. And it says, "The limit for asbestos dust particles 15 is set at 5 million particles per cubic foot"? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. And the Texas State Department of Health issued a 18 1971 threshold limit value of 5 million particles per cubic 19 foot. Are you aware of that? 20 A. I'm sorry. What date? 21 Q. 1971. Did you know that? 22 A. Yes, but that was superceded by the OSHA P.E.L. 23 Q. Again, that 5 million particles per cubic foot by the 24 Texas State Department of Health in 1971, that was on Page, I 25 think, 17 of that document -- WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005293 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. Okay. Page 230 2 Q. -- is that correct? 3 A. I believe so. Wait a minute. Hang on a second. 4 Okay. 5 Q. That's all right. If you can't find it, let me ask 6 you this. And it's your testimony Exxon was aware of these 7 occupational health regulations from Texas back in '58? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. And how would these regulations have been 10 disseminated to petrochemical plants in Texas at that time? 11 How would they have gotten that information, if you know? 12 A. Well, I would believe that each company would have 13 been responsible for their dissemination within their 14 operations. 15 Q. Turn to the next Exhibit, No. 24. What is exhibit -- 16 I'm sorry . Are you there? 17 A. Okay. 18 Q. What is Exhibit No. 24? 19 A. This looks like the original emergency temporary 20 standard for asbestos that was published by OSHA in -- or is 21 it -- which one is this? Oh, no. This is the first permanent 22 asbestos regulations published June 7th, 1972. 23 Q. And what threshold limit was set for asbestos 24 exposure in those regulations? 25 A. As a time-weighted average, it would have been WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005294 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 5 fibers per cc for an 8-hour work. Page 231 2 Q. And certainly Exxon or its predecessors would have 3 known of those regulations? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. And in working with OSHA during the time you worked 6 with them. how would Exxon have received these regulations and 7 notice of these regulations? 8 A. They would have monitored the Federal Register and 9 extracted anything that they felt was pertinent to their 10 operation. 11 Q. Could you identify what Exhibit No. 25 is? 12 A. Let's see, 25. Let's see. It looks like -- looks 13 like they' re making notations, looks like an audit of their 14 operations with respect to the use of asbestos. That's what I 15 would think. I don't know who it's to or from. but -- or even 16 if it's an Exxon document, but it's -- it looks like it's 17 pertaininc to someone critiquing, I guess, their compliance 18 with the OSHA regulation. 19 Q. Do you have any knowledge -- have you ever seen this 20 before? 21 A. I don't believe so. 22 Q. And do you have any knowledge one way or the other 23 whether this was written by an Exxon employee? 24 A. I have no idea. 25 Q. Okay. There was a date at the bottom though. It WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005295 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 looks like 12-28-71. Page 232 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. And that would have been after the OSHA regulations 4 came out? 5 A. No. This is prior to that. 6 Q. Okay. Does it talk in this document about Exxon not 7 complying with the regulations regarding the mixing of asbestos 8 in closed bags ? 9 A. If they talk about compliance, it would be comparing 10 what the current practice would have been compared to what the 11 OSHA requirement would require because the OSHA regulation 12 wasn't in effect yet. 13 Q. Does it talk about the bagging of asbestos waste? 14 A. It says, "We don't bag waste as called for." So that 15 tells me it's either not using the same type of bag or the 16 labelling on the bag. This doesn't -- this is not -- really 17 not a clear statement in terms of what they do or don't do. 18 Q. Does it talk about vacuuming? 19 A. It says, "We dust vacuum as called for and I'm sure 20 we dry sweep which is taboo." 21 Q. "Dry sweep which is taboo," what does that mean, if 22 you know? 23 A. I believe the regulations in '72 prescribed wet 24 sweeping as opposed to dry sweeping. 25 Q. Do you know if any dry sweeping was done at the Exxon WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005296 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 Baytown refinery in the '60s and '70s? Page 233 2 A. It's certainly possible. I think that was a 3 procedure that was not called for, but I'm not saying that it 4 couldn't have happened at some point in time. 5 Q. And dry sweeping would not be called for because it 6 could kick up dust? 7 A. Right. 8 Q. There was another section on thisExhibit 25, the 9 first where it says, "Let us assume our contractors are 10 reviewing these standards, and some day we will officially 11 inform them they must comply." Do you see that? 12 A. Yes. That's the first point. 13 Q. Do you know what that means? 14 A. It seems to me that they're saying, well, people are 15 reviewing the proposed regulations and that we -- as we are 16 doing, and that we're assuming the contractors are doing 17 likewise, but at some point -- and I assume prior to the 18 effective date of the regulation -- they're going to inform 19 them that they must be in compliance when the regulation 20 becomes effective. 21 Q. This doesn't indicate to you any type of lack of 22 concern on Exxon's part for the contractor? 23 MR. MANNING: Objection, form. 24 A. No. I don't think so. 25 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) All right. Does this also -- WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005297 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 this document talk about the use of high dust asbestos Page 234 2 insulation and noting that use should be discontinued only 3 because the product was no longer available, specifically 4 referring to Unibestos, on the second part of that particular 5 document? 6 A. Yes, it seems to. 7 Q. It says, "We've been using Unibestos, the worst from 8 dust angle, but it is going off the market. Then I believe we 9 will be using Johns-Manville and Kaylo which is somewhat 10 better"? 11 A. Right. Correct. 12 Q. All right. On the fourth section it mentions 13 something about hand or power tools and it says, "This new 14 standard says hand or power tools should be provided with local 15 exhaust ventilation and dust collectors. I don't see how you 16 provide these on a hand saw and I don't see the need in the 17 field." 18 Did I read that correctly? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. And do you know what that means? 21 A. Well, it's -- it's my recollection that the standard 22 requires ventilation on power tools, so apparently this person 23 misinterpreted that it would be required on hand tools. That 24 would be my takeaway 25 Q. Could you turn to Exhibit No. 26? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005298 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. Okay. Page 235 2 Q. Have you ever seen Exhibit No. 26 before? Have you 3 ever seen that? 4 A. No, I haven't. 5 Q. Has that ever been provided to you by the lawyers for 6 Exxon-Mobil? 7 A. I haven't seen it before, no. 8 Q. Does this document, which I believe indicates was 9 written on January 7th, 1972, indicate that, "Although 10 respirators were available for use during the application and 11 demolition of insulation, employees were not wearing the 12 protective equipment and Exxon personnel had not been requiring 13 use of respirators"? 14 A. That's what it says. This appears to be -- this is 15 not a document relating to Baytown, however. 16 Q. Do you know what it relates to? 17 A. The only indication to me is if -- by the initials at 18 the top, F.S.V. It says, "You may want" -- I can't read it 19 all. But anyway, F.S.V. would be Fred Venable, so that would 20 indicate that it's a document somehow related to Baton Rouge. 21 Q. One of the priority items on this document was the 22 elimination of all - 23 MR. CAPPOLINO: I'm sorry. Strike that. I 24 apologize. 25 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Could you turn to Exhibit No. 27. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005299 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. Okay. Page 236 2 Q. Can you identify for us what Exhibit No. 27 is? 3 A. It's a memo from Fred Venable to Jim Hammond titled 4 "Asbestos Hazard Control Program," and it's dated March 9th of 5 ' 72 . 6 Q. Have you ever seen that document before? 7 A. I think I have. 8 Q. Do you know when Humble Oil -- Humble Oil, do you 9 know when they began to institute a company-wide asbestos 10 hazard control program? 11 A. Well, they implemented one as early as '37 with the 12 Bonsib report. It was modified over time, and certainly when 13 OSHA issued its final asbestos regulations, it was modified at 14 least from a technical standpoint to comply with it. 15 Q. Does this document that we're looking at. Exhibit 16 No. 27, indicate that Humble only began to institute a 17 company-wide asbestos hazard program in mid 1972? 18 A. I wouldn't think so, no, unless -- unless it's being 19 misinterpreted. 20 Q. I want to go to Page 3 of that document and the last 21 paragraph where it says, "We should not overlook the fact that 22 employees must be informed of the asbestos health problem, 23 their responsibilities for good work practices and the need for 24 their cooperation in every operation involving asbestos dust 25 exposure." WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005300 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. Right. Page 237 2 Q. Did I read that correctly? 3 A. Yes . 4 Q. Is it your testimony that the employees were informed 5 of the asbestos health problem prior to the date of this 6 document ? 7 A. Absolutely. 8 Q. Well, why would they put that wording in this 9 document ? 10 A. Because it was a specific compliance requirement in 11 the OSHA regulations. This is basically just going down a list 12 of compliance requirements. It's just reiterating the fact 13 that employees must be trained and educated. 14 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, nonresponsive. 15 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Could you turn to the next 16 exhibit, Exhibit No. 28? 17 A. Okay. 18 Q. And can you identify Exhibit No. 28 for the record? 19 A. Let's see. It's a memo from Fred Venable to a 20 Mr . E . R. Felton and an M.H. Brock and its subject is "Asbestos 21 Regulations," July 20th -- 22 Q. All right. 23 A. -- 1972. 24 Q. It says here, "I'm interested in making sure that all 25 employees , not just supervisors, become familiar with the WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005301 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 recent asbestos regulations." Page 238 2 Did I read that correctly? 3 A. Yes . 4 Q. And then it says, "Since the issuance of the Steering 5 Committee's No. 2 Bulletin on this subject, there has been a 6 thundering silence. Does this indicate a lack of concern or a 7 lack of knowledge?" 8 Did I read that correctly? 9 A. Yes . 10 Q. Do you know what that means? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Have you seen this document before? 13 A. I believe I have. 14 Q. Did you ever wonder what that meant? 15 A. Yes . 16 Q. And did you ever find the answer to that question? 17 A. I don't believe so. 18 Q. Why didn't you? 19 A. As far as I know, I need to see what -- I don't see 20 what Bulletin No. 2 is. I assume that it would be basically a 21 asbestos procedure to comply with the OSHA asbestos 22 regulations. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. It says, "Does this indicate a lack of concern or a 25 lack of knowledge?" I think it would probably indicate that WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005302 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 it's, again, a document that modifies asbestos-handling Page 239 2 procedures to meet OSHA regulatory requirements. So I guess 3 he's wondering why they haven't had more feedback on that. 4 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object -- 5 A. That's my interpretation. 6 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, nonresponsive. 7 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Mr. Venable, is he still around? 8 A. No. 9 Q. When did he pass away? 10 A. He had a heart attack. It's been probably 20 years 11 ago. 12 Q. Could you turn to Exhibit No. 29? 13 A. 29? 14 Q. Yes, sir. 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. And can you identify what Exhibit No. 29 is? 17 A. Let's see. It's a memo from Fred Venable to an A.C. 18 Worsley in purchasing. 19 Q. And, again, that's dated July 20th, 1972? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. Called "Contractors Compliance with OSHA Regulations 22 on Asbestos"? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. And the first sentence says or paragraph says , "In 25 the removal of scrap piping by scrap metal contractors. have we WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005303 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 made sure that possible exposures to asbestos materials Page 240 2 (insulation) are controlled?" 3 Did I read that correctly? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. Then it says, "What about cleaning up the area and 6 disposal of scrap asbestos resulting from handling of piping?" 7 Did I read that correctly? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. Then it says, "Is the contractor aware of the 10 requirements of Paragraph (c)(2)(iii) concerning clothing and 11 respirators ?" 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. Have you seen this document before? 14 A. I believe so. 15 Q. The next exhibit is Exhibit No. 30. Could you 16 identify that for the record, Mr. Larson? 17 A. It looks like another memo from Fred Venable to a 18 Mr. Jones regarding asbestos exposure. And let's see. I don' t 19 see a date. I don't see a date. 20 Q. All right. A two-page document. Have you seen this 21 before? 22 A. Let's see. I think I probably have. 23 Q. Okay. Do you know when you saw that? 24 A. It was probably -- I don't know, probably within the 25 last three years. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005304 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 241 1 Q. Does this document show and memorialize that Exxon 2 had knowledge of both Exxon employees and contractor employees 3 at the Baton Rouge plant that were being exposed to levels far 4 in excess of the 5 fibers per cubic centimeter standard 5 initially set by OSHA? 6 A. No, it doesn't. 7 Q. Why doesn't it? 8 A. Because these are instantaneous samples. They're not 9 time-weighted averages. 10 Q. The instantaneous samples, did that show that these 11 workers were being exposed and the contractors were exposed to 12 levels far in excess of the 5 fibers per cubic centimeter? 13 A. No, because that's a 8-hour time weighted average 14 over a period of 480 minutes. 15 Q. Were these excessive peak exposures? 16 A. I don't believe so. 17 Q. Does it talk about samples being taken from an Exxon 18 insulator involved in the removal of asbestos-covered lines 19 revealing asbestos concentrations of up to 20 78 fibers per cubic centimeter? 21 A. Just a second. Let me see this. 22 The other comment is that this would be without 23 regard to the use of respiratory protection. 24 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, nonresponsive. 25 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) My question to you, again, was. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005305 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 242 1 does this document show samples taken from an Exxon insulator 2 involved in the removal of asbestos-covered lines revealing 3 asbestos concentrations of up to 78 fibers per cubic 4 centimeter? 5 A. The actual concentration, yes. I'll -- I'll agree 6 with that 7 Q. Does the document show a contractor's employee 8 involved in the removal of insulating material from the 9 interior of a reactor vessel was exposed to concentrations of 10 asbestos reaching 255 fibers per cubic centimeter? 11 A. Yes, but for a three-minute period and without regard 12 to the use of respiratory protection. 13 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object to nonresponsive after 14 "Yes." 15 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Does this report talk about 16 failure to post warning signs in asbestos work areas? 17 A. Let's see. Let's see. I believe it does, yes. 18 Q. Does it talk about the failure to restrict 19 unprotected personnel from work areas? 20 A. Can you help me find that area? That would speed 21 things up 22 Q. All right. And, again, let me just ask you -- and I 23 apologize -- have you seen this document before? 24 A. I -- I say I think I have. I'm not positive. 25 Q. All right. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005306 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 243 1 A. As I said earlier, I've been primarily concerned with 2 documentation for the Baytown refinery and I haven't focused on 3 Baton Rouge. 4 Q. But, again, you told me earlier that some of the 5 operations at Baytown and Baton Rouge would be the same as at 6 the Baytown refinery? 7 A. Some would. 8 Q. Let me go to that second page. Page 2, and let me 9 just ask you about some other things here. And I think it's 10 the third paragraph where it says, "There are a number of items 11 concerning these jobs that I feel deserve comment." 12 A. Okay. 13 Q. It says, "The first concern is the clothing 14 contamination by asbestos dust which is almost unavoidable in 15 this scope of removal operations." 16 Did I read that correctly? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And do you agree with that? 19 A. I suppose. 20 Q. It says, "Not only are we violating the existing 21 regulations concerning clothing by not providing such clothing 22 and laundering it, but we are also failing to protect our 23 employees and the families of our employees from asbestos 24 exposure. The matter of protection of the contractors' 25 employees is also worthy of consideration by our management." WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005307 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 244 1 Did I read that correctly? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And then it says further in the next paragraph 4 "While we issued refinery-wide guidelines on asbestos handling 5 soon after the effective date of the standard in 1972, there 6 are still deficiencies in our compliance with these guidelines, 7 specifically the failure to restrict unprotected employees from 8 these areas and the failure to post warning signs in the 9 asbestos work area." 10 Did I read that right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Were you ever made aware of these deficiencies before 13 today at that plant? 14 A. I'm sorry? 15 Q. Were you ever made aware of these deficiencies at the 16 Baton Rouge facility before today, before I showed you this 17 document? 18 A. Like I say, I don't recall specifically if I have 19 read this memo before or not, but I will go -- I will say that 20 this is apparently an example of them doing an audit to find 21 out what the weaknesses were in the program at Baton Rouge and 22 taking corrective action now. 23 So I'm not saying that this didn't occur, but 24 I'm -- the fact that they, you know, reviewed the operations, 25 noted deficiencies and reported these, I think, is an example WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005308 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 of a -- at least a form of oversight of the program. Page 245 2 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, nonresponsive. 3 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Let me ask you about the next 4 paragraph. It says, "While we initially embarked upon the 5 asbestos control program with some reservations concerning its 6 real significance to the problem of asbestos caused disease and 7 some degree of complacency regarding the health of our 8 employees, there has been considerable change in thinking, at 9 least on the part of this writer, because of the appearance of 10 two cases of mesothelioma in recent months among Exxon company 11 employees." 12 Did I read that correctly? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And this would indicate, this document written by, I 15 guess, Mr. Venable, that there was some degree of complacency 16 regarding the health of the Exxon employees. Would you agree 17 with that? 18 A. Let's see. How does he say that? I wouldn't agree 19 with that. 20 Q. You wouldn't agree with it, but you weren't at the 21 Baton Rouge facility at any time during the time this was 22 written? 23 A. Let's see. I was actually there -- let's see. I was 24 there actually after this was written. 25 Q. So you disagree with Mr. Venable? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005309 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 246 1 A. I don't think that it's been my experience that Exxon 2 has been complacent regarding the health of employees. I think 3 it's been just the opposite. I think they've been very 4 proactive 5 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, nonresponsive. 6 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) I want to turn to the next 7 exhibit, Exhibit No. 31. We're getting pretty close to the end 8 on these. but let me ask you about Exhibit No. 31. 9 Can you identify what Exhibit No. 31 is? 10 A. It appears to be a memo. Let's see. I don't know 11 who it's from -- from J.E. Walsh of Union Carbide to several 12 people, I assume, also from Union Carbide regarding protective 13 coatings in the oil industry. 14 Q. It has a section there: 15 "Full Name: Exxon." 16 "Address: Houston, Texas." 17 "Protective Coatings of the Oil Industry." 18 Then it has, "Interviewed: Ron Beers - 19 Development Engineer," and then, "Bill Potsavich, Purchasing 20 Manager." Do you see that? 21 A. Yes . 22 Q. Do you know any of those folks? 23 A. No. 24 Q. This is a March -- is this a March -- appear to be a 25 March 1974 sales call memo? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005310 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. It appears to be. Page 247 2 Q. From a supplier of asbestos-containing materials 3 noting that the Exxon's Houston facility was a growing user of 4 Calidria brand RG-244 asbestos with projected use for 1974 of 5 some 8 million pounds? 6 A. Let's see. Let me read this. First of all, where 7 does -- where does it refer to asbestos? 8 Q. Do you see the part about 244? 9 A. Yes . 10 Q. Do you know whether or not that is RG-244 asbestos or 11 can you tell? 12 A. I have absolutely no idea. 13 Q. That's fine. We can go on to the next exhibit. 14 A. But it sounds like it's a coating. It's not -- it's 15 not asbestos. 16 Q. All right. 17 A. I don't think this has anything to do with asbestos. 18 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, nonresponsive. 19 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Let's go to Exhibit No. 32. 20 A. Okay. 21 Q. Have you seen Exhibit No. 32 before? 22 A. Don't believe so. 23 Q. Do you know if this is an Exxon document or Exxon 24 predecessor document or do you know? 25 A. It looks -- it looks like a document that is WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005311 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 248 1 discussing Exxon policy not to use asbestos if any equally 2 not-regulated material can be used. 3 Q. It has, "Metals Division, Customer Call Report," and 4 it has, "Customer & Location: Exxon, Houston, Texas," with 5 "Industry Classification: Zinc-rich coatings"? 6 A. Right. 7 Q. Do you know who J.E. Walsh is, the salesman? 8 A. I have no idea. That would be a, what, a -- an 9 employee of the, I guess, the supplier. 10 Q. Okay. It has "Persons Interviewed" again, Ron Beers 11 and H. Harman, a development engineer and a purchasing agent. 12 Could you tell from this document if they were Exxon employees? 13 A. I couldn't tell, and they're talking about coatings 14 and the refinery would not make any type of coating. 15 Q. It says, "Call made on moderate 244 user," and I just 16 want to ask you about the results of the call and what it says 17 here. It says, "Usage of 244 will not grow here and would 18 probably not exist at all if they could find a better 19 replacement for it in their Zinc-rich coating. Exxon policy is 20 not to use asbestos if any equal, not-regulated material can be 21 used. Each call is a toxicology discussion as they seem to be 22 literally shaking in their boots that someone (OSHA or their 23 people) are going to find out" - 24 A. "(OSHA or their own people.)" 25 Q. (Continuing) -- "(...or their own people) are going WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005312 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 to find Page 249 2 them. . 3 they al 4 because 5 of thei: 6 Did I read that correctly? 7 A. I believe you did. 8 Q. Have you ever seen this before? 9 A. No, but clearly it doesn't relate to the refinery. 10 and it 11 to use 12 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, nonresponsive. 13 A. So I don't see that as being a real issue. 14 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, nonresponsive. 15 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Turn to Exhibit No. 33. 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. Can you identify what Exhibit No. 33 is? 18 A. It looks like a NIOSH Health Hazard Evaluation Report 19 for the 20 Q. 21 Baytown 22 time wh> 23 similar 24 A. First of all, do you know the date on this? 25 Q. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005313 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 250 1 Well, actually, no. I'm sorry. It appears it's September of 2 1986 on the page there, third page. 3 Let me ask you this. Have you ever seen this 4 before ? 5 A. No. 6 Q. What is NIOSH? 7 A. It's the National Institute for Occupational Safety 8 and Health. 9 Q. And I want to ask you some questions from it and I 10 know you hadn't seen it. Does this appear to be a response to 11 a request by the National Institute for Occupational Safety and 12 Health to workers at that Exxon Bayway refinery to evaluate the 13 level and extent of asbestos exposure at that plant? 14 A. It appears to be. 15 Q. Does it indicate on -- and let me just turn to those 16 pages, if I can. If we could turn to Page -- I guess it would 17 be Page 18. 18 A. Okay. 19 MR. CAPPOLINO: All right. Strike that. Sorry. 20 I'd like to come back to that in a minute. I'm sorry, sir. 21 Let me just go on to the next exhibit. 22 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Exhibit No. 34, can you identify 23 what that is? 24 A. This is another document related to the Baton Rouge 25 refinery titled, "Summary of Safe Practices for Contractors." WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005314 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 251 1 Q. Have you ever seen a copy of that document before? 2 A. I don't -- I don't think I have. 3 Q. All right. And, again, that -- does that apply to 4 the Bat on Rouge facility? 5 A. I would -- I would believe so. 6 Q. All right. And do you know whether or not that's an 7 Exxon document? 8 A. I would believe it is. 9 Q. This document -- and I want to ask you about Page 1 10 of that document -- 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. -- under "General Information" -13 A. Okay. 14 Q. -- where it says, "On each job in the refinery a 15 company representative is assigned to serve as a liaison 16 between the contractor and the company. The contractor should 17 consult the designated representative for information on any 18 special safety precautions for the work being performed." 19 Did I read that correctly? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. And would you agree that that's something that did 22 happen at the Exxon refinery? 23 A. It's a standard practice, yes. 24 Q. Okay. And was that a standard practice at the Exxon 25 Baytown refinery also? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005315 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 252 1 A. Correct. Basically, any plant within the Exxon 2 system. 3 Q. All right. I want to talk about the section on that 4 first page again, "Safe Practices on the Job." No. 1, it says. 5 "Employees of the contractor will have an assigned gate to 6 enter and leave the refinery and a definite route will be 7 assigned for them to follow in getting to and from the job 8 site . " 9 Did I read that correctly? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. And was that standard practice? 12 A. Typically. 13 Q. All right. 14 MR. MANNING: Tim, can we go off the record just 15 for a second? 16 MR. CAPPOLINO: Yeah. 17 (Discussion off the record.) 18 (Recess from 3:57 to 4:04.) 19 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) We were talking about Exhibit 20 No. 34, Mr . Larson. That's where we are. I just wanted to ask 21 you some more things about that. 22 A. Okay. 23 Q. This document 34, I know it applies at the Baton 24 Rouge refinery, the Summary of Safe Practices For Contractors. 25 Do you know if the Baytown Exxon refinery had similar WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005316 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 documents? Page 253 2 A. I'm certain they did. 3 Q. And would they have talked about a lot of the same 4 issues ? And I know we haven't been through all of them on this 5 one, but a lot of the safety issues as far as the contractor 6 employees ? 7 A. Sure . 8 Q. Under No. 4 of that particular document on the first 9 page, it talks about hot work. What is hot work? 10 A. Hot work is where you're using equipment that creates 11 heat that could potentially cause a fire explosion. 12 Q. And it mentions things such as welding -- just for 13 example. welding, burning, soldering, power tool riveting. 14 things of that nature? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. And it says, "Hot work can be done in the refinery 17 only upon written authorization. The authorization can only be 18 granted by a designated company management representative"? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. All right. On Page 2 of that document, does it state 21 somewhere that ESSO at that time, the predecessor, also 22 retained the power to authorize contractor employees to operate 23 company equipment? 24 A. Let's see. Can you point that out? 25 Q. Yeah. "Contractors' employees must not ride in WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005317 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 254 1 company-owned vehicles or transport company employees in 2 contractors' vehicles unless specifically authorized by the 3 company representative"? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. Does it say any use of cranes of contractors would 6 also be controlled by ESSO personnel? Do you see that 7 anywhere? 8 A. Can you point that out? 9 Q. No. I can't point it out right now -- well, yeah, I 10 do. It says. No. 9, "A Company representative will review any 11 use of cranes by contractors in the refinery and will prohibit 12 the use of live boom equipment in locations where the safety of 13 refinery personnel or equipment may be jeopardized." 14 Did I read that correctly? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. And do you know whether or not that kind of policy 17 would have been effective at Exxon Baytown during the '60s? 18 A. I believe so. 19 Q. Then on No. 10 it says, "Contractors' work areas that 20 can be fenced out or otherwise isolated from the refinery may 21 be handled differently than previously outlined. In these 22 cases, the Company representative will advise of variations 23 permitted." 24 And did I read that correctly? 25 A. You did. And I'm not -- I really -- I don't actually WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005318 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 know what they're referring to there. Page 255 2 Q. All right. Do you -- did you ever read a deposition 3 of an individual by the name of Bonetti? Have you ever heard 4 of that name? 5 A. I don't believe so. 6 Q. And specifically, it would have been an 7 M.W. Bonetti. 8 A. I don't believe so. 9 Q. Do you know if that person even worked for Exxon or 10 any of its predecessors? 11 A. I have no idea. 12 Q. Okay. I had shown you this document, "Identify 13 Gaskets and Their Use" from Exxon, the Skills Training. Do you 14 know if any other documents like this exist at Exxon, workbooks 15 or skill training documents? 16 A. I don't guite understand the question. 17 Q. In other words -- 18 A. Exactly like that or similar or -- 19 Q. What I'm saying is, if there's any other documents 20 like this . I'm not talking about gaskets, but other type of 21 skill training in other areas. 22 A. I would imagine there are. I can't say with 23 certainty that there are, but I would assume that that's part 24 of a overall training program for craft employees. 25 Q. Okay. Did Exxon ever manufacture any WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005319 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 asbestos -containing material? Page 256 2 A. The only -- I don't -- I don't believe so, that I'm 3 aware of . Not that I'm aware of. 4 Q. Have you ever been provided any documents which show 5 that one way or the other? 6 A. Well, the one you were referring -- some -- some 7 coating number 244? 8 Q. Yeah. 9 A. To the extent that that was a asbestos-containing 10 product. then, I guess, yes. But if it had been, it sounds 11 like it would have been part of a -- like a paint or something 12 of that nature which would not have been -- I don't believe it 13 would have been friable in that sense. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. But I was not aware that they even produced that. 16 Q. What is a special emphasis inspection promotion? 17 A. In the early and mid 1970s, OSHA had what they called 18 the target health hazards program where they identified five 19 substances or agents of concern to occupational health. And 20 they did target inspections of industries that handled those 21 particular agents. They included asbestos, lead, silica. 22 cotton dust and noise. 23 Q. All right. Do you know whether or not any special 24 emphasis inspections were done at the Baytown Exxon refinery by 25 OSHA in the '7 0s ? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005320 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. I'm not aware of any. Page 257 2 Q. Do you know if any of those inspections were done at 3 the Crown Central Petroleum refinery in the '70s? 4 A. I'm not aware of any. 5 Q. Have you ever heard of a company called Stanco 6 Industries ? 7 A. Yes . 8 Q. Did you do any OSHA inspections over there? 9 A. I did. 10 Q. And what were the results? 11 A. It was a textile weaving operation, actually. They 12 made brake blocks for drilling rigs, and I did a special 13 emphasis inspection for asbestos there. Spent about a week. 14 did quite a bit of air sampling. And fortunately for them. 15 they had just installed local exhaust ventilation on all of 16 their weaving equipment and they did come in below the 5 f iber 17 per cc time-weighted average for asbestos. 18 Q. You had mentioned that there had been apparatuses for 19 measuring , doing measurements, air sampling measurements for 20 asbestos, like midget impingers? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. When did those come into existence? 23 A. When did they come into existence? 24 Q. Yeah. 25 A. I would say the -- probably the mid 1930s. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005321 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 258 1 Q. Okay. And certainly a refinery, if they wanted to 2 have some air sampling done, would have had access to get the 3 midget impingers to do it as early as that time? 4 A. It's entirely possible, but there were limitations 5 with that method because it did not measure asbestos fibers 6 per se. It measured total dust. So it would be a general 7 indicator of exposure, but it wouldn't tell you the specific 8 asbestos that you were being exposed to. 9 Q. All right. And did the technology improve over the 10 years where you could obtain better samples? 11 A. Absolutely. 12 Q. And what technology, in other words, what other type 13 of tools or equipment came into existence, and when, that a 14 refinery could use to do air samples for asbestos dust? 15 A. Well, the portable sampling pump was developed which 16 could be worn by the employee for asbestos. They used a 17 membrane filter that was attached to the employee's breathing 18 zone. It collected dust and fibers which could then be counted 19 microscopically, and you could identify the specific fibers 20 which met the definition for, quote, asbestos fiber. So you 21 were measuring apples and apples and not apples and oranges. 22 Q. When did that come into existence? When was that 23 technology - 24 A. The very late 1960s, and it was a method specified in 25 OSHA's first asbestos regulation. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005322 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 259 1 Q. Again, I want to make sure I've covered this. Your 2 hands-on, out-in-the-field experience at the Exxon Baytown 3 facility was limited to the two weeks you spent there getting 4 your industrial hygiene training at that facility. Is that a 5 correct statement ? 6 A. Specific to Baytown, but I went to each of the Exxon 7 refineries. 8 Q. I want to ask you some questions about Brown & Root, 9 if you have any knowledge of this. 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. Do you know if they had a safety or industrial 12 hygiene department in the '60s? 13 A. I believe they did. 14 Q. Do you know who headed that? 15 A. I don't know the specific person, no. 16 MR. CAPPOLINO: I believe I'm going to pass you 17 at this time, Mr. Larson, let some of these other lawyers ask 18 questions. I may have some after them, but I'd like to pass 19 you. 20 THE WITNESS: Fine. Thank you. 21 EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. LABOON: 23 Q. Mr. Larson, are you ready to proceed? 24 A. Sure . 25 Q. My name is John LaBoon. I'm just going to have a few WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005323 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 260 1 questions for you today. First of all, you are a certified 2 industrial hygienist; correct? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. And you are a certified industrial hygienist as of 5 when? 6 A. Let's see. That would have been 1976. 7 Q. During your time with the -- that you worked with 8 OSHA between '73 and '76, did you ever consider gaskets 9 asbestos- containing gaskets to be a hazard? 10 A. No, not a significant hazard, no. 11 Q. You have read and you brought, I think, with you or 12 produced Bill Dyson's report; is that correct? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. Do you know Dr. Dyson? 15 A. Yes, we've met. 16 Q. Have you -- I want you to look at Page 17 -- or 17 starting with Page 17 of that report. And that's the section 18 that starts concerning, "Knowledge Regarding Gaskets and 19 Packing"; correct? 20 A. Let's see. I believe so. What's the -- which 21 paragraph 22 Q. Well, it's the paragraph that starts -- it says. 23 "Knowledge Regarding Gaskets and Packing," Page 17. 24 A. Oh, I'm looking at the wrong designation for page. 25 Okay. Yes. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005324 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 261 1 MR. CAPPOLINO: John, let me just -- if you can 2 give me a running objection to this exhibit. It 's assuming 3 facts not in evidence. And I know we reserve our hearsay 4 objections , and I'd like to do that at this time , if you'll 5 allow me. so I don't have to keep interrupting. 6 MR. LABOON: That's fine. 7 Q. (By Mr. LaBoon) And you've read this report; 8 correct ? 9 A. Yes. I haven't read it recently, but I have, yes. 10 Q. Okay. In terms of his conclusions -- or let' s turn 11 to Page 18 now. I'm talking about 18 in the top right-hand 12 corner. 13 A. Right. Got you. 14 Q. And one thing he quotes is on Page -- the IARC 15 Conference from 1972 and it says, "There is no conceivable 16 health risk in the use of asbestos-based gasket materials." Do 17 you see that sentence? 18 A. Where on the page is that? 19 Q. It says, "One presenter wrote" -- and it says 20 footnote 66. 21 A. Oh, okay. Fine. 22 Q. And that's from -- you can see footnote 66 is the 23 IARC Conference from '72; correct? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. And then you see the sentence, "There is no WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005325 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 262 1 conceivable health risk in the use of asbestos-based gasket 2 materials " ? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. And then you see Dr. Dyson's impression is that, "The 5 last sentence in this statement reflected state-of-the-art 6 knowledge regarding gaskets as of 1972"; correct? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. Are you of the same opinion? 9 A. Yes . 10 Q. I believe the next page. Page 19, he goes on for 11 several pages and discusses a lot of different gasket studies; 12 correct ? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. And finally on Page 20 -- it's the second full 15 paragraph 16 A. All right. 17 Q. Do you agree with Dr. Dyson's conclusions that there 18 is no significant health effects of working with the gaskets ? 19 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object to form. 20 A. I agree. 21 MR. LABOON: That's all the questions I have. 22 EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. LYNCH: 24 Q. Mr. Larson, my name is Walter Lynch. I represent 25 Crown Central Petroleum. I've got a few questions. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005326 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. Okay. Page 263 2 Q. You ready? Generally speaking, a welder at a 3 refinery in that Gulf Coast area of Texas in the 1960s and 4 1970s would not have been exposed to asbestos dust? 5 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, form. 6 A. You're saying generally speaking? 7 Q. (By Mr. Lynch) Generally speaking. 8 MR. CAPPOLINO: Same objection. 9 A. Generally speaking, I'd say that's true. 10 Q. (By Mr. Lynch) I believe you even testified to that 11 earlier when talking about specifically Mr. Oney? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. That there might be some spot chances where a welder 14 might be exposed, but generally very little chance of exposure? 15 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, form and leading. 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. (By Mr. Lynch) Through 1974, do you think welders at 18 refineries in the Texas Gulf Coast region were generally at 19 risk for exposure to asbestos above the OSHA standards? 20 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, form. 21 A. No. 22 Q. (By Mr. Lynch) Why not? 23 A. Because of the brief and intermittent nature of 24 working around anything that might contain asbestos. Even if a 25 person had been, say, 20, 30 feet from an asbestos-containing WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005327 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 264 1 product. the exposure would have been very low, and chances are 2 the exposure duration would be very short. Therefore, in 3 determining the actual dose, in other words, what the person 4 would be exposed to over a full shift, a full week, a full 5 month or even a full working career, the actual numbers would 6 be extraordinarily low as compared to, say, some other craft 7 like an insulator. 8 Q. Besides reading the depositions that you've been 9 given in this case, you have no personal knowledge of any of 10 the work practices of the Crown Central refinery in Pasadena, 11 Texas ? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Previously, you were talking about the Bonsib report 14 and you quoted or you agreed with the statement that it was 15 made available to other companies at some point in time? 16 A. That's what I -- that's the impression I gathered 17 from reading Jim Hammond's deposition. 18 Q. But you don't know that Crown Central ever actually 19 received that report? 20 A. I don't know that as a personal fact, no. I don't 21 have personal awareness of that. 22 Q. And you're not specifically aware of any other 23 company that received that report? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. And you're not specifically aware that anyone at WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005328 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 Crown ever reviewed the Bonsib report? Page 265 2 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, form. 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. You're probably not specifically aware of any other 5 company reviewing that report? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. And a little earlier you testified about different 8 studies that were available to companies in the 1965-1966 time 9 frame concerning insulators, particularly the Dr. Selikoff 10 study? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. But you don't know if Crown before 1970 ever received 13 any study or article that discussed the hazards of asbestos? 14 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, form. 15 A. Right. 16 Q. (By Mr. Lynch) You also testified earlier that you 17 thought that Crown should have been aware that the hazards of 18 asbestos by 1970? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. But when you talk about the hazards of asbestos in 21 terms of 1970 knowledge, you're talking about overexposure to 22 asbestos ; right? 23 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, leading and form. 24 A. I'd agree with you. I'd also just say and the 25 potential inherent hazard of asbestos, if you are overexposed. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005329 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 266 1 Q. (By Mr. Lynch) And, in fact, in 1970 and through 2 1974, there was no regulation that said workers could not be 3 exposed to asbestos whatsoever? 4 A. That's exactly right. Correct. 5 Q. The regulations concerned the total amount of 6 exposure and the risk for overexposure? 7 A. Right. 8 Q. Do you know how many barrels a day the Exxon Baytown 9 refinery had capacity for in the early 1970s? 10 A. I'd say on the order of about half a million a day. 11 Q. And what about the Baton Rouge refinery in the same 12 time period? 13 A. Very similar. 14 Q. And what about the Bayway refinery? 15 A. It was somewhat smaller, probably close to 300, 000 16 barrels per day. 17 Q. Well, by reviewing the deposition of Mr. Trembly, are 18 you aware that Crown refinery in the early 1970s had a capacity 19 of just under 100,000 barrels a day? 20 A. I think I recall reading that, yes. 21 Q. So it's fair to say that in comparing the size of the 22 companies, Exxon and Crown Central Petroleum, there's really 23 not much of a comparison there? 24 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, form and leading. 25 A. I'd agree with that. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005330 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 267 1 MR. LYNCH: I'll pass the witness 2 EXAMINATION 3 BY MR. COSMICH: 4 Q. Mr. Larson, good afternoon. My name is John Cosmich. 5 I represent Owens-Illinois. I just have a few questions for 6 you. 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. You were shown multiple excerpts from a deposition of 9 a Mr. Stovall. Do you recall that? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And there was some mention about his personal lawyer 12 showed up with him? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. And it was mentioned that his personal lawyer was a 15 lawyer from the Williams-Bailey Law Firm. Do you recall that? 16 A. I think that's right, uh-huh. 17 Q. You had also said you didn't really know what his 18 agenda was, did you? 19 A. No, but there did appear to be something in the 20 background. 21 Q. Okay. If I were to tell you Mr. Stovall had his own 22 asbestos lawsuit, would that help tell you what his agenda was? 23 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, form and leading. 2 4 A. It certainly would explain, I think, his general tone 25 and... WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005331 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 268 1 Q. (By Mr Cosmich) And if I were to tell you that the 2 Williams- Bailey Law Firm handles lots of plaintiff lawsuits in 3 asbestos litigation, would that be another indication of what 4 his agenda was? 5 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, form and leading. 6 A. Yes, it would. 7 Q. (By Mr Cosmich) Would you agree with me that if 8 Mr. Stovall had his own lawsuit and the Williams-Bailey lawyers 9 were his attorneys, that he would have had an interest in 10 identifying as many asbestos-containing products as he could 11 out at Exxon Baytown? 12 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, form and leading. 13 A. I would think so. 14 Q. (By Mr Cosmich) Now, with respect to what was read. 15 there were multiple references to Kaylo from the years 1958 to 16 1969. Do you recall that time frame? 17 A. I believe so. 18 Q. Okay. Now, you never heard any testimony read from 19 Mr. Stovall's deposition as to when he first saw Kaylo within 20 that period, did you? 21 A. I don't recall any. 22 Q. Okay. And you didn't recall any mention of the name 23 Owens-Illinois, did you? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Okay. Now, with respect to whether or not Owens -- WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005332 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 269 1 whether or not Kaylo was heavily used at the Baytown refinery. 2 would you agree with me that that would be inconsistent with 3 the multiple documents that Mr. Cappolino showed you from Exxon 4 or -- or its predecessors that talked about what products were 5 used? 6 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, form and leading. 7 A. I'd agree with that. 8 Q. (By Mr Cosmich) In fact, most of the documents refer 9 to Thermobestos or 85 percent mag; correct? 10 A. Right. 11 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, form and leading. 12 Q. (By Mr Cosmich) And there were others that referred 13 to Unibestos, but there seemed to be some question as to when 14 and how it was used; right? 15 A. I'd agree with that. 16 Q. And at what facility? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. Also Kaylo, of course, was not mentioned in the 19 Bonsib report; correct? 20 A. No. 21 Q. The types of materials that they were studying then 22 were felts and 85 percent magnesia? 23 A. And mag, correct. 24 Q. And if I were to tell you that Kaylo was not an 25 85 percent mag, would you agree with me that it wasn't WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005333 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 mentioned in the Bonsib report? Page 270 2 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, form. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. (By Mr Cosmich) Would you agree with me that you 5 haven't seen any evidence that any of the -- that Mr. Stovall 6 ever worked with or around Mr. Oney at an Exxon facility? 7 A. I haven't seen any evidence to that effect. 8 Q. And you also weren't shown any evidence that he 9 worked with or around any of the other multiple gentlemen's 10 names that were read to you by Mr. Cappolino? 11 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, form. 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. (By Mr Cosmich) Now, with respect to a piece of 14 equipment, say, if it were insulated at some time in the 1940s 15 or 1950s and Mr. Oney came in contact with some piece of that 16 equipment in the 1960s, Exxon did not -- or the Baytown 17 refinery, to your knowledge, did not have records that would 18 say, okay, we know that this particular type of pipe covering 19 or block was put on this equipment in the '40s and '50s and we 20 know it lasted X number of years? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Okay. A piece of equipment or -- or a boiler or a 23 turbine or anything that would be insulated at the refinery 24 would be subject to turnarounds every one to two years at the 25 facility; correct? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005334 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. That's approximately correct, right. Page 271 2 Q. Okay. And one of the things that is done in a 3 turnaround, as you've testified to and been shown documents of. 4 is any of the old or worn insulation would be replaced? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. The object being to get rid of anything friable r 7 correct ? 8 A. Correct, or damaged. 9 Q. And there would also be -- in addition to these 10 multiple turnarounds that would occur every year, there would 11 be minor repairs from time to time by either a contractor or 12 in-house insulators; correct? 13 A. Right, to a smaller extent. 14 Q. Okay. And the goal of the refinery was to keep the 15 things in good condition? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. Would you agree with me that if there's testimony 18 that Mr. Oney removed or was around any old insulation at -- at 19 the Baytown refinery in the mid 1960s, it would be pure 20 speculation as to when and how that insulation was first put 21 on? 22 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, form. 23 A. I'd agree with that, unless it was -- there was a new 24 construction going on. 25 Q. (By Mr Cosmich) But as far as the old stuff -- WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005335 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. Right. Page 272 2 Q. -- didn't have records -- 3 A. Existing, no. 4 Q. Wouldn't know how many turnarounds it was subject to 5 in the previous years; correct? 6 A. Probably not. 7 Q. Wouldn't know how many minor repairs it was subject 8 to in the previous years; correct? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. And I believe it was your testimony that based upon 11 your knowledge of the procedures that had been in place at -- 12 in the company for years, you would not have expected Mr. Oney 13 as a welder to have participated in any tear-out of old 14 insulation; correct? 15 A. Correct. 16 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, form and leading. 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. (By Mr Cosmich) You also would not have expected him 19 to be around it; correct? 20 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, form and leading. 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. (By Mr Cosmich) And even if he were and there were 23 any type of dusts, you would have expected him to have been 24 wearing a respirator; correct? 25 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, form and leading. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005336 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. Correct. Page 273 2 Q. (By Mr Cosmich) And this is based upon policies and 3 procedures that Exxon had that were passed on to Mr. Oney's 4 employer. Brown & Root; correct? 5 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, form and leading. 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. (By Mr Cosmich) Now, it's clear that Exxon knew 8 since 1937, using the date of the Bonsib report, that when 9 working with or around asbestos-containing pipe covering and 10 block that there were certain industrial hygiene and 11 engineering controls that could be used to keep dust down; 12 correct? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. Now, you were asked some questions about the exposure 15 levels in the Bonsib report, and you started to say something 16 about peak exposures but were cut off? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. Can you tell me what you mean by peak exposures and 19 how that relates to the numbers that are in the Bonsib report? 20 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, form and side-bar. 21 A. Right. Due to the nature of the technology then in 22 terms of air sampling, the impinger samples were collected over 23 a short duration. So the measurements that were indicated in 24 the report were for periods of from 5 to 15, to a maximum of 25 about 20 minutes; whereas, the threshold limit value, the WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005337 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 274 1 5 million particles per cubic foot is a 8-hour time-weighted 2 average standard. So you have to factor in the dose for the 3 entire shift. 4 Also, when you talk about asbestos-containing 5 insulation, only a fairly minor proportion of the total dust 6 that would be generated would be asbestos. In the case of 7 magnesia, only 15 percent. So you'd have to factor in the 8 lower concentration of the asbestos and the short duration of 9 the sample to really come up with a comparison to the 5 million 10 particles per cubic foot standard. 11 Q. (By Mr Cosmich) And is that something that 12 Dr. Hammond did when he interpreted the Bonsib report? 13 A. He did. 14 Q. Would it be fair to say that Dr. Hammond, based upon 15 your reading of his testimony and -- and the documents at 16 issue, that Dr. Hammond had an understanding that if certain 17 precautions were used when working with asbestos-containing 18 pipe covering and block, you would not get dust levels that 19 exceeded the 5 million particles per cubic -- per cubic foot 20 time-weighted average? 21 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, form and leading. 22 A. Yes. 23 MR. COSMICH: Those are all the questions I have 24 for you. Thank you, Mr. Larson. 25 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005338 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 275 1 MR. MANNING: Does anybody on the phone have any 2 questions? 3 MR. SZOCKA: This is Andrew Szocka. I do not 4 have any questions. 5 MR. MANNING: Anybody else? 6 MS. MASSEY: This is Lisa Massey for 7 Certainteed. I have just a few questions. 8 MR. MANNING: Okay. 9 EXAMINATION 10 BY MS. MASSEY: 11 Q. Sir, is there any reason why a welder like Mr. Oney 12 would have worked on the cement pipe? 13 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, form. 14 A. No. It would -- his work would strictly be limited 15 to metallic piping and vessels. 16 Q. (By Ms. Massey) And the cement fire water line would 17 have been out in a trench; right? 18 A. Typically that's the way it's done. 19 Q. And so a welder wouldn't have even been working 20 around that type of pipe; correct? 21 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, leading and form. 22 A. That -- that's my understanding. 23 MS. MASSEY: Okay. Thank you. Those are all 2 4 the questions I have for you. 25 THE WITNESS: Thank you. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005339 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 276 1 MR. MANNING: Anybody else on the phone? 2 MS. WATSON: Courtney Watson for Lincoln, Hobart 3 and B.0.C. 4 EXAMINATION 5 BY MS. WATSON: 6 Q. Good afternoon. Earlier, the plaintiff attorney had 7 asked you questions about coated electrodes and the welding 8 processes. 9 A. Yes . 10 Q. Okay. And I recall that there was a page being shown 11 to you showing that these produced dust? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. Now, in your experience, do these -- do these welding 14 rods create any sort of danger for the welders? 15 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, form. 16 A. In my experience, they do not. And I -- I believe. 17 if I'm not mistaken, that Lincoln Electric has done some 18 studies that recreated exposure and this was specific to 19 asbestos. And I believe their findings was that there was 20 either no or almost -- well, essentially none detected. 21 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, nonresponsive. 22 Q. (By Ms. Watson) Okay. And so your understandings of 23 the Lincoln study is that there was no -- no real exposure to 24 the -- to the welders? 25 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, form and leading. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005340 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 Q. (By Ms. Watson) From asbestos; correct? Page 277 2 A. That's correct, either in their handling or their 3 use. 4 Q. (By Ms. Watson) And you also said that there were no 5 welding studies conducted by Exxon; correct? 6 A. Not that I'm aware of. 7 MS. WATSON: Okay. I have no more questions. 8 Thank you 9 EXAMINATION 10 BY MR. ALEMAN: 11 Q. Mr. Larson, can you hear me okay? 12 A. Yes . 13 Q. This is Jeremy Aleman on behalf of Zurn Industries. 14 A. On behalf of who? 15 Q. Zurn? 16 A. Zurn. Okay. 17 Q. Sir, you were previously asked about boilers out at 18 the Exxon Baytown facility? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. And you felt that some of the boilers may have had 21 some asbestos products that were used in conjunction with them? 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. Do you have any direct knowledge that any of those 24 boilers did, in fact, have asbestos products used in 25 conjunction with them? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005341 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. I do not have any direct knowledge, no. Page 278 2 MR. ALEMAN: Okay. Sir, that's all the 3 questions I have. Thank you. 4 MR. MANNING: Anybody else on the phone? 5 MR. CAPPOLINO: I've got some follow-up. 6 MR. MANNING: I've got a few. 7 MR. CAPPOLINO: I'm sorry. 8 MR. MANNING: That's okay. 9 MR. CAPPOLINO: Go ahead. 10 EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. MANNING: 12 Q. Mr. Larson, from your reading of the materials in 13 this case , did Mr. Oney serve in the Navy? 14 A. Yes . 15 Q. And for how many years did he serve in the Navy? 16 A. I believe it was either four or five. 17 Q. And he was a machinist's mate in the Navy? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. And would he have been exposed to asbestos as a 20 machinist 's mate in the Navy? 21 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, leading and form. 22 A. Based on the literature that I've reviewed, he would 23 be, yes. 24 Q. (By Mr. Manning) And then how many years did 25 Mr. Oney spend as a welder? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005342 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. How many total years? Page 279 2 Q. Yes, sir. 3 A. I would say probably 30 plus. 4 Q. And out of those 30-plus years as a welder, how much 5 time, based upon his testimony, did he spend at the Exxon 6 Baytown refinery? 7 A. According to his testimony, the total cumulative time 8 would have been three months. 9 MR. MANNING: Thank you, sir. I pass the 10 witness. 11 FURTHER EXAMINATION 12 BY MR. CAPPOLINO: 13 Q. Mr. Larson, I've got some follow-up questions. Let 14 me just ask you this. With regard to some other products that 15 may have been out at the Baytown refinery, we had mentioned -- 16 or I'd asked you about some of them. Have you ever heard of 17 the company John Crane? 18 A. Yes . 19 Q. And do you know what John Crane manufactured back in 20 the '60s? 21 A. I believe they manufactured valves. 22 Q. Do you know if John Crane manufactured any 23 asbestos -containing materials? 24 A. I've seen that referenced in some other depositions 25 that it did. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005343 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 280 1 Q. Do you know whether or not the Exxon Baytown refinery 2 in the 1960s had any John Crane asbestos-containing materials 3 at that plant? 4 A. I have no knowledge one way or the other. 5 Q. Who would be the person that I would talk to from 6 Exxon that would have the most knowledge of that, the Exxon 7 personnel who would have the most knowledge of what 8 asbestos-containing products were at that plant in the '60s 9 when Mr. Oney was there? 10 MR. MANNING: Objection, form. 11 MR. SZOCKA: This Andrew Szocka. Objection, 12 lack of foundation. 13 A. Off the top of my head, I really don't know who that 14 would be. 15 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) All right. People that actually 16 saw -- that were at the Exxon Baytown refinery and saw boxes 17 openedup with the names of manufacturers on it that contained 18 asbestos would be in a better position than you to say whether 19 that material was there or not, wouldn't they? 20 A. I suppose. 21 Q. Okay. Do you know how materials werepurchased or 22 requisitioned at the Baytown refinery in the '60s? 23 A. When you say "how," do you mean the process involved? 24 Q. Purchase orders? Requisitions? 25 A. Sure. Through the purchasing department, acentral WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005344 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 purchasing department, correct. Page 281 2 Q. Do you know who manned that purchasing department in 3 the '60s at the Baytown refinery? 4 A. Not the specific person, no. 5 Q. Let me ask you about Westinghouse. Do you know 6 whether or not there was any products manufactured by 7 Westinghouse that were out at the Baytown refinery in the '60s 8 when Mr. Oney was there? 9 A. I have no personal knowledge, but it's certainly 10 possible 11 Q. Why is it certainly possible? 12 A. Westinghouse, I know, was a major manufacturer of 13 turbines and compressors, so there was at least a pretty good 14 possibility or probability even that they were there. 15 Q. So now you're saying there was a probability that 16 they were -- 17 A. Well, I don't know if I'd go -- 18 Q. Let me finish my question. 19 A. Sure. 20 Q. Now you're saying there is a probability that there 21 were Westinghouse turbines or compressors out at the Baytown 22 refineries in the '60s; is that correct? 23 MR. MANNING: Objection, form. 24 A. Quite frankly, I'd say it's somewhere between a 25 possibility and a probability, whatever that might be. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005345 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 Q. 2 wise ? (By Mr. Cappolino) Page 282 Where does that lie, percentage 3 A. I don't know. 4 Q. Do you know whether or not these Westinghouse 5 turbines and compressors would have any type of asbestos 6 insulation on them in the '60s? 7 A. I don't know. 8 Q. Do you know whether or not the Exxon Baytown refinery 9 had Erie boilers, E-R-I-E, boilers back in the 1960s? 10 A. I have no knowledge of that. 11 Q. You had been asked a question whether or not you had 12 any knowledge as to whether or not boilers had any 13 asbestos- containing materials on them in the '60s when Mr. Oney 14 was there . Do you recall that? 15 A. Yes . 16 Q. You don't have any knowledge of that one way or the 17 other, do you? 18 A. I know just from -- 19 DEFENSE COUNSEL: Objection, form. 20 A. -- reviewing prior testimony that frequently that -- 21 that did. in fact, occur, but I have no personal knowledge 22 directly. 23 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) What testimony did you read in 24 the past that that would frequently occur, where there would be 25 asbestos- containing materials on boilers? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005346 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 283 1 A. I can't name a specific deposition, but I think I've 2 seen that referred to in several, but I don't recall 3 specifically which one. 4 Q. Well, did that involve cases involving the Exxon 5 refineries and claims of them having asbestos-containing 6 materials at their plants? 7 A. It was other companies that were named in lawsuits. 8 And I don't recall any related to Exxon, but there were some 9 with Mobil as one of the parties; that there were some power 10 plants in the greater Chicago areas where they were alleging 11 that boilers in the power plants contained some asbestos 12 materials. 13 Q. Okay. And did you learn from that prior testimony 14 what type of asbestos-containing materials could have been on 15 boilers ? 16 A. What kind? 17 Q. Yeah. In other words, what type? Pipe insulation? 18 Block insulation? 19 A. Pipe and block, I would say. 20 Q. And that it contained asbestos? 21 A. Some, some apparently did. 22 Q. And did you learn from that deposition testimony what 23 that asbestos insulation was used for on boilers? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. What was it used for? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005347 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. Thermal insulation. Page 284 2 Q. Did it ever have to be removed at any time? 3 A. I believe it did. 4 Q. Why did it have to be removed? 5 DEFENSE COUNSEL: Objection, form. 6 A. As I recall, it would be removed when tubes were 7 being replaced in the boiler. 8 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Do you have -- do you have any 9 knowledge from reading any prior testimony or outside knowledge 10 that asbestos-containing insulation had to be removed from 11 boilers ? 12 A. I'm sorry. Could you repeat that, please? 13 Q. Yeah. What knowledge do you have that 14 asbestos- containing insulation had to be removed from boilers ? 15 A. Again, just from reading depositions relatec to cases 16 involving Mobil. 17 Q. All right. Was it ever discussed in those cases how 18 it was removed? 19 A. How it was removed? I can't recall specifically. 20 Q. Or who would be the craft that would remove it? 21 A. To my knowledge, it would be insulators. 22 Q. Or whether or not dust was created when it was 23 removed? 24 A. I think it's been alleged that it could have been 25 dusty. I can't recall specifically what was said. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005348 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 285 1 Q. Well, do you have any knowledge if asbestos 2 insulation is removed from boilers whether or not any dust is 3 created in the air from that removal? 4 A. I'd say it's certainly possible, from what I've read. 5 Q. And from what you've read -- you're an industrial 6 hygienist. Wouldn't it be part of your job as an industrial 7 hygienist to determine from your own knowledge, not reading 8 other things, whether or not asbestos insulation creates dust 9 when it's removed from boilers in a refinery? 10 A. If I had been assigned to a refinery as an industrial 11 hygienist, I'm sure that would have been one of my -- one of my 12 areas of concern and responsibility. 13 Q. And you've never been assigned to a refinery as an 14 industrial hygienist; is that correct? 15 A. Not full time, but as I advanced through Mobil, I was 16 involved in numerous industrial hygiene audits of refineries 17 where we went in and took a look at, for example, asbestos 18 control programs and we actually reviewed the practices that 19 were in effect. 20 Q. Did you actually see asbestos insulation removed from 21 boilers when you went to the plants on this industrial 22 hygiene -- 23 A. Audit? 24 I've seen it removed from piping systems but not 25 boilers. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005349 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 286 1 Q. When did Exxon, the Baytown refinery -- and let me 2 ask you this. Did the Exxon Baytown refinery ever establish an 3 asbestos abatement program? 4 A. In terms of asbestos abatement program, that's an 5 ongoing program. Whenever a unit goes into a turnaround 6 situation, any asbestos-containing insulation is replaced with 7 non-asbestos-containing insulation. So it's an ongoing 8 process. 9 Q. Okay. And that's what you were talking about earlier 10 when the substitute materials would come into effect -- 11 A. Right. 12 Q. -- the regulations came into effect -- 13 A. Exactly, exactly. 14 Q. -- and that Exxon periodically would remove the 15 asbestos at different times? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. In other words, there wasn't one program that 18 established a certain time called an asbestos abatement 19 program? 20 A. No. It's an ongoing program. 21 Q. Do you know anything about aluminum smelting plants? 22 A. Somewhat. 23 Q. You had had some documents or some depositions in 24 there from some coworkers of Mr. Oney at the ALCOA Rockdale 25 plant. Do you recall seeing those depositions? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005350 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. Yes, I do. Page 287 2 Q. You put on those depositions, "Not Relevant"? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. Why did you do that? 5 A. As being not relevant to Exxon. I didn't mean that 6 they're not relevant to his lawsuit, but to Exxon. 7 Q. Do you know whether or not ALCOA Rockdale ever 8 established an asbestos abatement program? 9 MS. GREEN: Objection, form. 10 A. I have no knowledge of that. 11 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Do you know it wasn't until 1996 12 that they did that? 13 MS. GREEN: Objection, form. 14 A. I didn't know that. 15 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) If it was in 1996 when they 16 established that program, would that have been way past the 17 time the OSHA regulations came out? 18 MS. GREEN: Objection, form. 19 A. Yes, but to further clarify that, OSHA did not 20 require abatement programs per se. They regulated occupational 21 exposure 22 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, nonresponsive. 23 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) I wanted to ask you about -- you 24 had been posed some questions about Mr. Stovall's deposition 25 testimony, some questions by his lawyer from Williams and WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005351 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 288 1 Bailey. And they had asked you questions whether or not you 2 think he had his own agenda in the deposition testimony he gave 3 because he had an asbestos lawsuit. Do you recall that? 4 A. Yes . 5 Q. Do you think everybody that has an asbestos lawsuit. 6 say, who worked for a company like Exxon or Mobil or ALCOA in a 7 supervisory capacity has an agenda? 8 A. No, not necessarily, no. 9 Q. When you say, "not necessarily," what do you mean? 10 A. Well, I'm -- people are different. I mean, I'm sure 11 some people might have one and some people might not. I don't 12 know. It just appeared to me from his deposition testimony 13 that he had an agenda. 14 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, nonresponsive. 15 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Well, Howard Bradley who was the 16 safety supervisor at Crown Central Petroleum, as I told you. 17 had his own asbestos lawsuit. Do you remember me telling you 18 that? 19 A. Yes . 20 Q. And he had his deposition taken in his asbestos 21 lawsuit, but you hadn't seen a copy of that yet, have you? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Do you think Mr. Bradley has his own agenda? 24 A. I don't know. 25 Q. You'd have to read his deposition to see if he did? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005352 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 289 1 A. Well, there's -- it doesn't mean even by -- after 2 reading his deposition I'll come to some conclusion that he 3 either die or didn't have an agenda. 4 Q. I want to ask you about some gaskets. Mr. LaBoon had 5 asked you some questions about Dr. Dyson's report. Have you 6 met Dr. Dyson? 7 MR. MANNING: Objection, form. 8 A. Yes, I think I did. 9 MR. CAPPOLINO: What's the basis of that 10 objection? 11 MR. MANNING: That's repetitious. You've 12 already asked it. 13 MR. CAPPOLINO: I didn't ask that question. 14 MR. MANNING: Yeah. He's already answered it. 15 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Have you met him? 16 A. Yes. I believe so at the industrial hygiene 17 conference 18 Q. How many times? 19 A. I think once or twice. 20 Q. Have you ever read any of his deposition or trial 21 testimony in cases? 22 A. No. 23 Q. All right. And do you know on whose behalf he 24 testifies for in asbestos litigation? 25 A. I think it's primarily defendants. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005353 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 290 1 Q. All right. So if he testifies primarily for 2 defendants in asbestos litigation, he has his own agenda. 3 doesn't ie? 4 DEFENSE COUNSEL: Objection, form. 5 A. I have no way of knowing that. 6 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Do you know if he's ever 7 testified for a plaintiff? 8 A. I don't know that. I don't know that he's been 9 asked. 10 Q. Have you ever testified for a plaintiff in asbestos 11 litigation? 12 A. No. I haven't been asked to. 13 Q. Do you have an agenda because you haven't testified 14 for a plaintiff? 15 A. No. 16 Q. All right. Have you ever done any studies on dust 17 released from asbestos when they were removed? 18 A. When they -- I'm sorry. When they -- 19 Q. Have you ever done your own studies on gaskets, the 20 dust, asbestos dust that's from gaskets when they're removed 21 from a pipe flange? 22 A. Specifically for gaskets? I don't recall any. 23 Q. Do you know whether or not there was any type of 24 proposed ban on asbestos gaskets at any time? 25 MR. LABOON: Objection, form. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005354 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. I don't have any knowledge of that, no. Page 291 2 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) All right. In this document that 3 I've showed you identifying gaskets and their use, and that was 4 exhibit -- I don't even know if I can find it here. 5 MR. LABOON: 2. 6 MR. CAPPOLINO: 2? Thanks. Oh, here it is. 7 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) Let me just show it to you. 8 We've talked about this already, but -- and, again, this was an 9 Exxon Skills Workbook. Does it say anything in this whole 10 document about dust released from gasket removal? 11 A. I did not see anything, no. 12 Q. Does it say anything in this document about the 13 potential hazard of exposure from asbestos dust from the 14 removal of gaskets? 15 A. I don't believe so. 16 Q. Do you know why it's not in there? 17 A. I believe this was intended to be a document to help 18 people - - well, just based on the title of it, to identify 19 gaskets and their use. 20 Q. Okay. Does it ever talk in here about any kind of 21 dust being released when asbestos gaskets are removed? 22 A. I didn't see that, no. 23 Q. Okay. I want to ask you about the welders. 24 A. All right. 25 Q. Have you ever been a welder? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005355 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. I've been a welder's helper. Page 292 2 Q. Okay. When would you do that? 3 A. Summer. Let's see -- 4 Q. When? 5 A. 1967 . 6 Q. And was that a summer job? 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. How long did you do that? 9 A. Three months. 10 Q. What did you do as a helper? 11 A. Primarily I grinded welds and picked up materials, 12 welding rods for the welder. 13 Q. All right. And I grinded welds, too. 14 Do you recall when you grinded, you 'd get a lot 15 of dust on you and sometimes you'd sweat it out? 16 A. You certainly can. I also got my shirt caught in the 17 grinder once . 18 Q. All right. Other than that experience. have you had 19 any other experience as either a welder or a welder's helper? 20 A. Well, just from time to time walking through welding 21 shops at the various locations, seeing what they were doing. 22 Q. I wanted to ask you about the size of the refineries. 23 Mr . Lynch had asked you the size between Crown and Exxon, as 24 far as how much they produced? 25 A. Right. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005356 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 Q. Do you recall that? Page 293 2 A. Yes . 3 Q. Does that make any difference as to whether or not a 4 refinery should observe the regulations with regard to asbestos 5 dust exposure, as far as the size of their facilities? 6 A. I wouldn't think so. The only -- I would say that. 7 you know. obviously resources available to a small company may 8 not be as great as they would be for a larger company. 9 Q. Do you know how big that company was? Crown? 10 A. I don't. 11 Q. Do you know where their headquarters were? 12 A. I believe, from reading the depositions, Baltimore. 13 Q. Where we are right now? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. Have you ever had any dealings with Crown whatsoever 16 in your lifetime? 17 A. I don't think I ever have, no. 18 Q. Do you know when Crown started operation? 19 A. I believe I recall reading in one of the depositions 20 that it was, I believe, the 1930s or thereabouts. 21 Q. You didn't read anything about 1919? 22 A. That -- it could have been. Very well could have 23 been. 24 Q. So Crown would have had the benefit of all of this 25 knowledge about asbestos from the 19 -- at least the 1930s on. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005357 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 about the hazards or potential hazards of asbestos? Page 294 2 MR. LYNCH: Objection to form. 3 A. I can't speak to that. 4 Q. (By Mr. Cappolino) I wanted to ask you about the 5 Bonsib report. There was a question asked to you whether or 6 not those dusts reports were the 8-hour weighted average. Do 7 you recall that? 8 A. Right, right. 9 Q. And that they were just like peak exposures. 10 instantaneous? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. Why would Mr. Bonsib only do peak exposures? 13 A. At that time that was the only technology or 14 methodology they had for taking samples. He could have -- I -- 15 well, first of all, he goes on to say -- he gives the frequency 16 of the time that insulators even work with insulation. 17 Q. Uh-huh. 18 A. And it was much less than a full shift. So first of 19 all, there would be no reason to sample for an 8-hour day 20 because persons weren't exposed for a full 8-hour day and. 21 again, the technology only allowed short-term samples. 22 Q. Well, why would Mr. Bonsib report that? Why would it 23 be important for him to report that if it was in his report? 24 A. Because it shows relative exposure from one operation 25 to the next. WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005358 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 295 1 Q. So basically because it was a peak instantaneous 2 exposure , you say we're not supposed to cast any -- 3 A. No, no. That's not what I'm saying 4 Q. Let me finish my question. 5 A. Okay. Sure. 6 Q. We're not supposed to give it any type of 7 materiality, any importance? 8 A. No, absolutely -- the intent was to minimize exposure 9 to the lowest extent feasible. Whether that. yor know, was 10 half the exposure limit or l/100th, that was the goal. 11 Q. I had asked you for air-monitoring samples, results 12 of those at the Exxon Baytown refinery, in the subpoena duces 13 tecum. Do you recall me asking for some of that information? 14 A. I don't remember that specifically. I guess that 15 could be part of the umbrella of the information that you had 16 requested, but I don't specifically remember air- sampling 17 results. 18 Q. You didn't provide any of those air -sampling results 19 for me today, did you? 20 A. I don't believe so. 21 Q. Why not? 22 A. I guess I'm not -- I'm not quite sure. I don't -- I 23 haven't had access to that. 24 Q. If the lawyers for Exxon-Mobil ask you to come to 25 trial to testify in this case, will you do so ? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005359 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. Yes . Page 296 2 Q. And if the lawyers for Exxon-Mobil give you any of 3 those air -sampling results that you've talked about that were 4 in existence and that were in place at the Baytown refinery in 5 the '60s, will you get that information to me through the 6 lawyers ? 7 A. Certainly to the extent it's available, yes. 8 Q. Do you know whether or not any of that stuff was 9 destroyed ? 10 A. I don't believe so, no. 11 Q. Do you know if Bonsib did any subsequent studies or 12 reports with regard to 8-hour time-weighted averages? 13 A. Not that I'm aware of. 14 Q. Why didn't he? 15 A. I assume that at some point he probably retired and 16 left the company. 17 Q. Well, Exxon had a lot of employees and a lot of 18 people that had supposed expertise in industrial hygiene like 19 Mr . Bonsib. Did they ever do that? 20 A. Oh, certainly, but you were -- you were talking about 21 Mr . Bonsib. 22 Q. And where were those reported? 23 A. Each refinery would have records from air sampling. 24 Q. And that's what we've just talked about, whether or 25 not I have those today, which I don't? WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005360 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 A. Right. Page 297 2 Q. I wanted to ask you about the Lincoln -- a lawyer 3 from the Lincoln question and -- or the Lincoln lawyer had 4 asked you the question. The question was, "Did Lincoln do 5 studies on dust released from welding rods?" Do you recall 6 that? 7 A. Yes . 8 Q. So Lincoln did those studies? 9 A. Apparently. 10 Q. So Lincoln, would they have an agenda in doing those 11 studies ? 12 A. I can't speak for them. 13 Q. But you can speak for Mr. Stovall, saying he had an 14 agenda? 15 A. Well, based on my knowledge and experience, it 16 appeared that he did. 17 Q. Do you know whether or not at Exxon Baytown refinery 18 there was any type of monitoring for benzene exposure in the 19 '60s? 20 A. I believe there was. 21 MR. CAPPOLINO: I believe that's all I have. 22 Mr. Larson. I appreciate your time. 23 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 24 25 WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005361 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 298 1 FURTHER EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. LABOON: 3 Q. Mr. Larson, on Exhibit 2, the gasket article, the 4 silence of discussing any -- any potential hazards of working 5 with gaskets, the fact that the document is silent, is that 6 consistent, in your opinion, with the fact that there was no 7 such regulations as to gaskets during that time period, 8 February of '73? 9 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, form and leading. 10 A. Yes, that's correct. 11 Q. (By Mr. LaBoon) And is that also consistent with 12 your opinion, as an OSHA employee at the time, that there was 13 no substantial risk of working around gaskets? 14 MR. CAPPOLINO: Object, form and leading. 15 A. I agree. 16 MR. LABOON: No more questions. 17 MR. MANNING: Anybody else? 18 MR. CAPPOLINO: Do you have any more? 19 MR. MANNING: No. I was going to check on the 20 phone. Anybody on the phone have any more questions? 21 MR. SZOCKA: This is Andrew Szocka, no. 22 MR. MANNING: I don't have any more. 23 MR. CAPPOLINO: Just a few more, Mr. Larson. 24 25 WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005362 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 299 1 FURTHER EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. CAPPOLINO: 3 Q. When you went out to the refineries with OSHA -- 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. -- did you ever go out and look to see the process of 6 asbestos gasket removal from pipe flanges? 7 A. I'm trying to remember. When we did our inspections. 8 we got a snapshot, basically, of what was going on at the 9 refinery at that particular time. I don't recall if I ever 10 seen -- saw gaskets removed during an OSHA inspection. I know 11 that at some time in my career I have observed it. I just 12 don't know if it was during -- while I was with OSHA or while I 13 was with Exxon or Mobil. 14 Q. You stated in a prior deposition that at the Baytown 15 refinery there was over 100 potentially toxic substances in a 16 refinery and in a chemical plant like Baytown, and you included 17 asbestos as one of those; correct? 18 A. Correct. 19 MR. CAPPOLINO: That's all I have, Mr. Larson. 20 Thank you. 21 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 22 (Exhibit Nos. 40 and 41 marked.) 23 24 25 WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005363 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 300 1 CHANGES AND SIGNATURE 2 WITNESS NAME: BRUCE LARSON DATE: DECEMBER 18, 2006 3 PAGE/LINE CHANGE REASON 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005364 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 301 1 I, BRUCE LARSON, have read the foregoing deposition and hereby affix my signature that same is true and correct, 2 except as noted above. 3 4 5 6 7 THE STATE OF ) COUNTY OF ) BRUCE LARSON Before me, , on this day 9 personally appeared BRUCE LARSON, known to me (or proved to me under oath or through ) (description 10 of identity card or other document) to be the person whose name is subscribed to the foregoing instrument and acknowledged to 11 me that they executed the same for the purposes and consideration therein expressed. 12 Given under my hand and seal of office this day of , . 13 14 15 NOTARY PUBLIC IN AND FOR 16 THE STATE OF ________________________ COMMISSION EXPIRES: _________ 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005365 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 302 1 CAUSE NO. 2005-52097 2 BILLIE ONEY, INDIVIDUALLY ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT AND AS REPRESENTATIVE OF THE ) 3 HEIRS AND ESTATE OF FLOYD ) ONEY; VICKI NEW, ) 4 INDIVIDUALLY; AND JANET ) SVRCEK, INDIVIDUALLY, ) 5) PLAINTIFFS ) 6) VS . ) OF HARRIS COUNTY, TEXAS 7) 8 ALCOA, INC., ET AL, ) ) ) 9 DEFENDANTS ) 11TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 10 TRANSFERRED FROM 11 CAUSE NO. 05-CV-147 12 FLOYD ONEY AND ) IN THE COUNTY COURT 13 BILLIE ONEY, ) ) 14 PLAINTIFFS ) ) 15 VS . ) AT LAW NO. 1 OF ) 16 ) ABLE SUPPLY CO., ET AL, ) 17 ) DEFENDANTS ) CALHOUN COUNTY, TEXAS 18 19 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATION DEPOSITION OF BRUCE LARSON 20 DECEMBER 18, 2006 21 22 I, Misty Fondren Clements, Certified Shorthand Reporter in 23 and for the State of Texas, hereby certify to the following: 24 That the witness, BRUCE LARSON, was duly sworn by the 25 officer and that the transcript of the oral deposition is a WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005366 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 1 true record of the testimony given by the witness; Page 303 2 That the deposition transcript was submitted on 3 to the witness or to the attorney for the 4 witness for examination, signature and return to me by 6 That the amount of time used by each party at the 7 deposition is as follows: 8 9 MR. CAPPOLINO....................05:33 10 MR. LABOON.................................00:04 11 MR. LYNCH.....................................00:06 12 MR. COSMICH............................00:09 13 MS. MASSEY................................00:01 14 MS. WATSON................................00:02 15 MR. ALEMAN................................00:01 16 MR. MANNING............................00:01 17 18 That pursuant to information given to the deposition 19 officer at the time said testimony was taken, the following 20 includes counsel for all parties of record: 21 22 Mr. Timothy R. Cappolino, Attorney for Plaintiffs; 23 Mr. Christopher Manning, Attorney for Defendant, 24 Exxon-Mobil Corporation; 25 Mr. Walter Lynch, Attorney for Defendant, Crown Central; WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005367 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 304 1 Mr . John LaBoon, Attorney for Defendants, Garlock Sealing 2 Technologies, Inc. and Greene Tweed; 3 Ms . L. Amy Green, Attorney for Defendant, ALCOA, Inc.; 4 Ms . Laura M. Higgs, Attorney for Defendant, Goulds Pumps, 5 Inc. ; 6 Mr . Keith Truffer, Attorney for Defendant, A.W. 7 Chesterton; 8 Mr . John Cosmich, Attorney for Defendant, Owens-Illinois; 9 Mr . J. Keith Stanley, Attorney for Defendant, Fluor 10 Enterprises, Inc.; 11 Mr . Xaverie L. Picciurro, Attorney for Defendants, 12 Cleaver- Brooks, Inc. and Hercules Chemical Company; 13 Mr . Stephen K. Guidry, Attorney for Defendant, American 14 Standard , Inc.; 15 Ms . Lisa Massey, Attorney for Defendants, Dana 16 Corporation, Certainteed Corporation and Buffalo Pumps, Inc.; 17 Mr . Marcus A. Carroll, Attorney for Defendant, Longhorn 18 Gasket & Supply; 19 Ms . Courtney P. Watson, Attorney for Defendants, Hobart 20 Brothers , Inc., Lincoln Electric and CBS Corporation; 21 Mr . Andrew Szocka, Attorney for Defendant, John Crane, 22 Inc. ; 23 Ms . Lauren A. Syler, Attorney for Defendant, Crane 24 Co. ; 25 WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005368 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 305 1 Mr. Jeremy Aleman, Attorney For Defendant, Zurn 2 Industries; 3 Ms. Kimberly Steele, Attorney for Defendant, 4 Georgia-Pacific Corporation; 5 Mr. Matthew Lott, Attorney for Defendant, Guard-Line, 6 Inc. r 7 8 I further certify that I am neither counsel for. related 9 to. nor employed by any of the parties or attorneys in the 10 action in which this proceeding was taken, and further that I 11 am not financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of 12 the action. 13 Further certification requirements pursuant to Rule 203 of 14 TRCP will be certified to after they have occurred. 15 Certified to bv me this of 2007 . 16 17 18 Misty Fondren Clements 19 Texas CSR No. 4026 Expiration Date: 12-31-07 20 LegalPartners, L.P. 21 9219 Katy Freeway, Suite 111 Houston, Texas 77024 22 Phone: (713) 935-1600 Fax: (713) 935-1610 23 Firm Registration No. 375 24 25 WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005369 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 306 1 FURTHER CERTIFICATION UNDER RULE 203 TRCP 2 3 The original deposition was/was not returned to the 4 deposition officer on ; 5 If returned, the attached Changes and Signature page 6 contains any changes and the reasons therefor; 7 If returned, the original deposition was delivered to 8 , Custodial Attorney; 9 That $ is the deposition officer's charges to 10 the Plaintiff for preparing the original deposition transcript 11 and any copies of exhibits; 12 That the deposition was delivered in accordance with Rule 13 203.3, and that a copy of this certificate was served on all 14 parties shown herein on and filed with the Clerk. 15 Certified to by me this day of 16 , 200 7. 17 18 19 Misty Fondren Clements Texas CSR No. 4026 20 Expiration Date: 12-31-07 21 LegalPartners, L.P. 9219 Katy Freeway, Suite 111 22 Houston, Texas 77024 Phone: (713) 935-1600 23 Fax: (713) 935-1610 2 4 Firm Registration No. 375 25 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91:2,8 92:23 100:10 145:25 153:10,12 164:24 187:2 190:25 192:12 199:13 202:5 204:8 228:6,24,24 253:2 273:10 274:16 286:18 certainly 31:12 33:23 36:25 41:5 47:10 52:22 53:12 58:14 80:1 89:10 93:21 99:15 100:14 101:1 113:12 121:18 122:1 122:6 126:23 128:20 128:21 145:23 178:21,22 183:17 202:15 208:7 226:21 227:5,6 231:2 233:2 236:12 258:1 267:24 281:9,11 285:4 292:16 296:7,20 Certainteed 5:17 69:8 142:6,9,12 186:12,13 275:7 304:16 certainty 255:23 certificate 8:19,20 306:13 Page 4 certification 302:19 305:13 306:1 certified 2:6 49:13 111:17 260:1,4 302:22 305:14,15 306:15 certify 302:23 305:8 cetera 94:16 chain 101:22 chamber 207:22 chance 41:4 72:7 177:11 208:22 211:15 263:14 chances 263:13 264:1 Chandler 77:15 78:9 111:1 change 170:13 245:8 300:3 changed 19:16 112:14 121:18 133:9 138:17 143:8 189:15 changes 8:18 35:9,14 35:19 224:20 300:1 306:5,6 changing 181:24 channel 59:1 106:4,4 Characterize 113:17 charge 44:8 83:3 146:15 152:20 charged 43:18 charges 306:9 Charles 2:8 4:8 154:1 174:10 Charter 147:20 charts 30:18 check 183:12 298:19 chemical 5:6 10:25 58:25 106:2 168:15 168:16 205:23 299:16 304:12 Chemical's 35:22 chest 45:24,25 104:8,24 105:19 Chesterton 4:12 304:7 Chicago 283:10 chief 201:20 choice 89:15,18 choose 99:23 109:11 Chris 16:10 17:6 42:6 Christi 19:22,25 Christian @ industrial... 3:6 Christopher 3:9 303:23 Chronicle 9:5 40:7 Chronology 150:20 WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005374 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 chrysotile 186:5 223:15 223:17 224:21 Church 209:10 Churg 225:5 cigarette 48:25 circulated 52:12 118:3 citations 149:2 cite 197:3 cites 196:23 City 204:5 Civil 2:9 12:4 claims 283:5 clarify 77:7 108:18 215:14 287:19 Clark 196:23 Clark's 197:3 class 70:2 classes 53:18 115:17,22 Classification 248:5 classifications 94:2 clay 144:20,21,24 clean 125:25 126:1,6 cleaner 174:17 cleaning 126:21 240:5 clean-up 47:13 clear 155:11 232:17 273:7 clearly 215:7 226:20 249:9 Cleaver-Brooks 5:6 304:12 Clements 2:6 302:22 305:18 306:19 Clerk 306:14 clinic 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components 181:15 200:12 comport 111:23 119:15 composition 188:25 212:23 216:8 compressed 29:6,23 30:5,19 32:2,8,13 compressors 281:13,21 282:5 conceivable 261:15 262:1 concentration 96:12 178:15,22,23 195:19 242:5 274:8 concentrations 10:9 66:18 241:19 242:3,9 concern 126:24 233:22 238:6,24 243:13 256:19 285:12 concerned 39:19 105:1 120:8 243:1 266:5 concerning 26:17 148:11 163:5 240:10 243:11,21 245:5 260:18 265:9 concluded 226:12 conclusion 38:20 148:25 201:17,22 289:2 conclusions 261:10 262:17 concrete 72:2 207:13 condition 157:14 271:15 conditions 73:3,7 82:7 82:11,15 125:9 178:9 178:12 179:24 202:6 206:12 conduct 45:7 129:13,15 conducted 27:5 45:22 54:19 64:15 115:17 115:22 129:20 277:5 conducting 44:15 conference 10:5 148:11 148:17 149:1,3 224:1 226:18,19 227:20,21 261:15,23 289:17 Confidential 177:4 confine 65:3 confirms 187:23 confuse 226:13 Congress 3:16 conjunction 277:21,25 connected 202:1 Connection 182:7 conservation 50:24 consider 260:8 considerable 199:4 245:8 consideration 125:5 195:23 243:25 301:11 considered 94:11 198:13 215:23 consist 45:21 consisted 85:17 consistent 105:6 160:11 161:13 171:3 223:2 298:6,11 consistently 113:1 constructing 70:16 construction 70:16 85:17 137:10,12,15 207:11 271:24 constructive 26:4 consult 251:17 consulting 14:20 15:5 43:3 contact 61:5 270:15 contain 144:25 166:7 186:1,3 199:13 224:24 263:24 contained 22:11,16 57:8,18 69:3 139:12 141:22 146:4 166:11 166:14 182:2 228:22 280:17 283:11,20 contains 180:14 306:6 Contaminants 10:9 contamination 243:14 content 10:7 202:17 228:6 contents 29:4 context 158:7 205:4 continue 32:23 45:14 85:7 215:2 216:24 continued 9:1 10:1 11:1 54:23 206:18 216:10 221:8 continues 202:13 continuing 81:21 118:20 133:13 248:25 contract 23:7 53:22 58:6,12,14,22 64:15 65:9 73:6 77:8 93:3 136:1 155:10 contracted 87:1 contractor 48:5 53:5 57:24 58:10,11 60:2 60:4 64:1,8 72:10 73:6,13,21,23 74:19 76:15 81:11,19 86:9 86:12 92:9 116:1 135:18,25 137:3,21 156:4 233:22 240:9 241:2 251:16,16 252:5 253:5,22 271:11 contractors 11:2 33:3 55:15 64:2,3,12,19 72:9 73:2,9,16 74:1 76:18,24 77:8 82:22 WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005375 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 6 82:22 83:9,14 84:6 85:24,25 86:20,22 88:9,18 97:25 101:15 101:17 115:25 118:4 119:19 135:19 136:1 136:2 137:8 155:10 155:19 217:14 233:9 233:16 239:21,25 241:11 243:24 250:25 252:24 253:25 254:2,5,11,19 contractor's 58:23 242:7 contracts 83:7 contrary 78:23 control 26:15 44:6 45:17 49:3 50:10 101:21 125:10 200:16 201:2,5,8,10 227:3,7 236:4,10 245:5 285:18 controlled 224:25 240:2 254:6 controlling 44:1,3 controls 150:15 273:11 convenience 126:21 cool 55:18 cooperation 236:24 Coordinating 158:16 coordination 203:17 copies 53:1,6 55:5,9 101:3 129:23 131:5 306:11 copy 12:14 17:25 25:15 27:25 28:16 40:17 53:5,5 58:9 74:25 90:18 99:4 129:10 130:1 154:4 177:7 209:11 213:18 216:16 217:8 224:12 251:1288:21 306:13 cork 193:14 194:13,24 220:12 corner 261:12 Corning 162:12 Corp 10:21,24 corporate 15:10,13 18:20 21:14 24:25 Corporation 3:8 5:17 5:17 7:6 303:24 304:16,16,20 305:4 Corporation's 11:11 154:7 Corps 124:20 Corpus 19:22,24 correct 14:19 15:13,17 17:5,10 18:14,24,25 20:7,8 21:21 26:12 28:6,7,22,23 31:3 32:14,15 35:11 37:6 38:6,7 43:8,14 44:5 45:6 49:12 50:21 51:8,9 54:5 56:21 57:1 59:25 60:25 69:22 74:14 88:15 92:4 94:23 95:4 102:2 105:7 108:15 116:15 119:17 121:17 122:19 130:8 130:9 138:22 144:4 150:8 153:16,22 155:23,25 156:2 163:11 165:6,16,24 166:17 180:8 184:25 185:21 186:22 187:1 187:5 188:9,14,18 189:14 192:1 193:12 194:5 196:1 200:20 204:25 205:1 207:1 209:25 213:21,22 216:5,11 219:23,24 221:10 223:13,16,18 223:19 227:9,23 228:9,23 229:10,16 230:2,8 231:4 232:2 234:11 239:20,23 240:4,8,12 251:20 252:1,10 253:19 254:4,15 259:5 260:2 260:3,12,13,19 261:8 261:23,24 262:3,6,7 262:12,13 263:16 264:24 265:3,6,11,19 266:4 267:13 269:9 269:17,19,23 270:12 270:25 271:1,5,7,8 271:12,16 272:5,8,9 272:14,15,17,19,21 272:24 273:1,4,6,12 273:13 275:20 277:1 277:2,5,19 278:18 281:1,22 285:14 286:16 293:14 298:10 299:4,17,18 301:1 corrected 48:23 corrective 244:22 correctly 32:10 76:21 77:3 78:2,21 79:15 79:22 83:12,13 86:6 87:4 91:15 98:9 100:5 103:2 105:4 108:10 109:22 111:15,21 113:21 114:12 115:11 118:17,24 119:7,13 123:9,21 125:2,11 157:23 159:12,24 160:21 163:14 164:6 165:11 170:11 171:2 171:22 172:10 173:1 173:8,25 175:11 178:16 179:7 188:1 193:7 195:25 197:14 199:6 200:7 202:8,19 207:24 214:4,21 222:11,23 227:14 234:18 237:2 238:2,8 240:3,7 243:16 244:1 245:12 249:6 251:19 252:9 254:14,24 Cosmich 4:18,19 8:9 164:17 170:6,8 215:10,21 267:3,4 268:1,7,14 269:8,12 270:4,13 271:25 272:18,22 273:2,7 274:11,23 303:12 304:8 cost 128:16,18 cos@cs-law.com 4:21 cotton 256:22 Council 131:9,14,17 counsel 15:19 16:1 37:18 42:3 68:14 69:11 74:21 95:15 99:13 282:19 284:5 290:4 303:20 305:8 count 193:15 194:5 counted 258:18 counting 208:23 counts 112:17 190:23 191:3,10,13,24,25 192:8 County 1:6,12,17 17:19 43:12 56:10,15 155:9 301:7 302:6,12,17 couple 112:19 151:12 154:16 course 20:6 23:10 137:18 152:18 184:24 216:5 269:18 court 1:2,12 13:19 15:1 302:2,12 Courtney 6:8 276:2 304:19 cover 11:4,5 19:20 20:3 29:21 41:23 166:22 210:7 covered 19:21 20:6 27:11 116:19,21 166:23 170:12 259:1 covering 59:9 60:14 61:1,2 96:21 107:10 107:12 108:3,7 109:7 140:17,19 162:24 164:9,14 165:14 167:8 170:3,20 172:4 172:8,19 173:5,17,18 173:23 174:24 185:2 192:23 193:6 270:18 273:9 274:18 coverings 199:13 coworkers 286:24 crack 63:23 cracker 48:25 62:5,6 101:25 cracking 61:7 62:5,6 62:17 101:13 121:11 122:4,14 192:15,22 193:5 206:12 207:18 craft 53:25 54:2,15 60:10 71:9,10,11,13 71:14 84:24 85:3 97:20,20,23 157:8 181:3,4,9,11 255:24 264:6 284:20 crafts 47:15 72:24 79:12 97:17 116:2,7 116:13 135:9 156:19 156:25 180:5 craftsman 109:16 171:10 craftsmen 109:2,13 159:4 Craighead 128:24 Crane 6:13,18 279:17 279:19,22 280:2 304:21,23 cranes 254:5,11 cream 126:3 create 90:13 108:20 109:15 110:2,6 160:14 161:2 167:25 276:14 created 90:9 91:2 107:13 109:9 167:9 167:16 169:19 200:6 284:22 285:3 creates 188:21 253:10 285:8 credentials 148:18 critical 177:13 critiquing 231:17 crocidolite 186:6 224:21 Crown 3:19 18:21 20:9 20:14,17 21:13,20,25 22:7,13 28:13,15,16 38:3,9 95:12 133:17 133:17 149:9,25 152:22 257:3 262:25 264:10,18 265:1,12 265:17 266:18,22 288:16 292:23 293:9 293:15,18,24 303:25 crude 181:14,15 crushing 193:9,14 194:14,24 195:2 CSR 305:19 306:19 cubic 67:7 93:7 117:16 117:19 153:21 192:1 192:17 195:21 229:15,18,23 241:4 241:12,20 242:3,10 274:1,10,19,19 cumulative 279:7 cure 202:7 current 232:10 currently 14:7,18 Custodial 306:8 Customer 10:22,22 248:3,4 cut 62:24 63:1 70:18 90:3 107:13 108:3 109:3 162:1 167:8,16 167:21,24 168:10,16 173:21 198:24 221:8 221:22,25 273:16 cutting 160:19,20 168:14 169:13,14 198:11 200:3 cwatson@ strongpip... 6:10,11 C-E-R-N-O-C-H 171:9 C-Q 49:10 C.F.R 153:23 D dad 124:17 125:16 daily 65:17 Dallas 3:11 4:4 6:21 7:4,9 damaged 271:8 Dan 201:20 Dana 5:17 304:15 danger 88:13,19 102:19 113:14 276:14 dangers 88:10 WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005376 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 data 153:11 date 95:25 126:9 155:1 204:1 214:15 215:5 216:12,20 229:20 231:25 233:18 237:5 240:19,19 244:5 249:24 273:8 300:2 305:19 306:20 dated 8:25 9:14,15 10:2 10:4,5,7,11,13,14,15 10:16,18,21,23,25 11:4,5 41:20 51:11 74:13 150:6 217:4 218:10 219:15 223:12 224:2 228:3 236:4 239:19 dates 56:1 98:19 dating 51:21 day 2:5 54:24 72:21,21 85:14 113:17 118:10 118:11 128:17,18 129:21 158:10,15 233:10 266:8,10,16 266:19 294:19,20 301:8,12 306:15 days 71:12 116:23 220:25 dead 188:21 dealing 36:6 dealings 293:15 deaths 9:5 41:8 decades 164:9 165:4 deceased 134:5 December 1:22 2:5 300:2 302:20 decrease 202:17 Defendant 3:8,19 4:1,6 4:12,17 5:1,11 6:1,13 6:18 7:1,6,12 11:11 303:23,25 304:3,4,6 304:8,9,13,17,21,23 305:1,3,5 defendants 1:9,17 3:13 5:6,17 6:6 13:14 153:5 289:25 290:2 302:9,17 304:1,11,15 304:19 defendant's 226:17 DEFENSE 37:18 68:14 69:1195:15 282:19 284:5 290:4 defensive 226:7 deficiencies 244:6,12 244:15,25 definite 252:6 definition 258:20 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264:17 266:17 267:8 268:19 283:1,22 287:24 288:2,12,20 288:25 289:2,20 299:14 301:1 302:19 302:25 303:2,7,18 306:3,4,7,9,10,12 depositions 14:4,25 17:9,12,13,25 20:18 21:25 28:13 41:24 42:10,13,19 43:7 44:22 46:21 52:5 55:25 68:2 99:5 142:11 152:1 156:13 158:3 187:5 218:16 220:20 264:8 279:24 284:15 286:23,25 287:2 293:12,19 depos @ dehay.com 3:12 4:10 depth 41:5 describe 157:20 159:1 159:19 164:2 described 68:2,4 157:12 164:3 description 8:22 181:16 301:9 deserve 243:11 design 137:17,20 201:2 201:5 designated 15:11 128:23 251:17 253:18 designation 154:6,8 260:24 desires 124:21 despite 216:7,7 destroyed 296:9 details 21:4 detect 197:12,24 detected 276:20 determine 285:7 determined 146:17 determining 264:3 DETERT 7:8 develop 106:21 227:13 developed 30:12 258:15 development 38:20 182:8 246:19 248:11 developments 204:14 device 114:8 115:8 devices 112:11 diagnosed 110:17 diagnosis 202:2 Diamond 77:1 86:3 Dick 228:3,10 die 249:4 difference 173:9 293:3 different 22:15 135:9 149:14 188:11 201:1 205:24 206:10 262:11 265:7 286:15 288:10 differentiate 180:12 differently 254:21 difficult 202:7 224:24 dinner 16:7 direct 101:8,22 102:7 104:20 122:11 277:23 278:1 directed 177:15 directing 80:23 86:12 direction 159:4 directly 101:16 282:22 director 187:10,16 224:6 228:15 dirty 126:4 157:22 disability 187:25 disagree 89:16 99:3 103:3 105:5 120:23 120:24 121:7 126:22 126:23 157:3 168:23 198:20 215:12 222:25 245:25 disagreed 123:1 disagreeing 98:24 disagreements 121:24 discontinued 234:2 discouraged 138:7 discovery 136:16 discuss 15:21 16:2 128:13 133:1 136:25 183:11 209:7 210:3 219:18 225:4,8 249:2 discussed 15:18 28:12 51:10 104:3 130:22 135:5 182:13 195:22 198:6 225:2 265:13 284:17 discusses 262:11 discussing 149:6 248:1 298:4 discussion 37:21 100:16 148:1 183:1 184:18 199:17 216:1 248:21 252:17 discussions 35:20 91:21 disease 39:13 45:8 102:23,23 106:7 107:1,3 110:12,16 112:4 117:2 133:2 Page 7 134:2,22 147:14 197:24 202:3 225:9 245:6 diseases 9:4 55:16 102:25 106:18,20,21 110:22 111:24 130:21 180:2 203:9 dismantling 122:17 disposal 162:2 240:6 dispute 159:14 160:1 160:23 167:13 172:12 175:22 179:9 184:19 189:13 190:10 191:12 198:19 206:25 208:1 212:25 217:25 220:19 222:3,17,25 disseminated 37:16 133:23 147:13 230:10 dissemination 224:24 230:13 dissolved 133:14 distinct 97:20 distinction 77:9 95:16 Distinctive 34:15 DISTRICT 1:2,9 302:2 302:9 disturbance 207:21 disturbed 66:17 Ditto 119:14 185:16,17 185:19 division 9:12 10:5,22 11:3 133:22 204:24 207:6,12,14 209:2,6 224:7 228:20 248:3 DNA 134:23 doctor 104:25 106:9 doctors 45:5 54:25 104:6,11,25 105:7 106:25 document 20:25 28:1,3 28:8,12,16 29:20,22 32:23 33:17,18 34:5 34:13 35:2,4,19 38:24 39:11 40:24 52:12 53:20,21 54:6 69:16,18,23 127:11 127:11 139:5 150:9 150:10,16,20,21 151:5 153:1,13 177:8 177:11,19 179:14,18 182:6,6,11,14 183:24 183:25 184:6 186:21 187:3,7 188:5 203:22 205:2,11 206:17,22 WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005377 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 208:19,21 210:16 211:11,14,20,22 212:7,14,15,17,20 213:18 214:13,14 216:8,16,23 217:9 218:9,12,14,17,18 219:12,18 220:10 224:12,14 225:8,19 228:17,19 229:25 231:16 232:6 234:1,5 235:8,15,20,21 236:6 236:15,20 237:6,9 238:12 239:1 240:13 240:20 241:1 242:1,7 242:23 244:17 245:14 247:23,24,25 248:12 250:24 251:1 251:7,9,10 252:23 253:8,20 255:12 291:2,10,12,17 298:5 301:10 documentation 243:2 documents 9:25 11:4 16:11,18,21 17:1,8 18:12 20:16 23:9 26:3,8,10,20 27:17 33:1641:18,24 51:14 53:7 55:13 65:8 114:21,23,24 115:2 127:14,15 134:4 135:11,14,15,24,25 146:19 150:4 151:2 176:14 188:6 211:14 216:11 253:1 255:14 255:15,19 256:4 269:3,8 271:3 274:15 286:23 DODD 3:4 DOGAN 7:13 doing 27:7 43:4,7 47:12 52:23 60:20,24 64:6 64:24 77:23 85:19,20 91:8 104:7 105:2 108:21 112:17 126:4 135:17 149:21 152:12 158:11,14 159:15 161:7 233:16 233:16 244:20 257:19 292:21 297:10 dose 264:3 274:2 dossier 114:14 double-jacketed 29:7 33:7 doubt 204:15 Dr 37:13 38:18 68:20 106:12 128:24 155:5 178:19 196:23 197:3 202:24 203:8,20 219:14 224:4,5,9 225:5 226:5,21 260:14 262:4,17 265:9 274:12,14,16 289:5,6 dramatically 189:15 draw 35:17 drawing 194:23 drilling 210:24 211:5 257:12 dry 222:22 232:20,21 232:24,25 233:5 duces 11:12 16:17 17:4 17:8 295:12 Due 273:21 duly 2:1 13:3 302:24 dumped 220:15 dumping 193:18 194:2 durable 32:13 duration 264:2 273:23 274:8 dust 9:14 10:11 26:22 66:18,20 68:12 86:24 90:9,14 91:2,7 92:17 92:20,23,25 93:4,8 93:14,20,23,23 94:2 94:6,19 95:1,3,7,14 107:12,15 108:4,8 109:9,15,21 110:2,6 110:6 113:16 115:18 115:23 120:12,20 153:20 159:22 160:4 160:14,17 161:3 167:9,10,16,25 168:2 169:14,19,21 170:3 170:14,20 172:8 173:5 178:15 179:5 183:5 190:19,23 191:3,9,13,16,24,25 192:8 193:15 194:5 197:3 198:16,25 199:5,19 200:6,17,22 201:2,5,12,13 202:2 202:4,14,17,18 204:18 207:21,23 208:4 211:2,9,21 220:16,22 221:1 222:22 226:23 227:3 227:12 229:14 232:19 233:6 234:1,8 234:15 236:24 243:14 256:22 258:6 258:14,18 263:4 273:11 274:5,18 276:11 284:22 285:2 285:8 290:16,20,20 291:10,13,21 292:15 293:5 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90:12 104:24 112:22 134:9 140:14 151:1 200:3 211:2,8 232:15 271:11 276:20 277:2 278:16 289:3 292:19 electric 6:6 198:17 276:17 304:20 electrode 199:13 electrodes 198:15 276:7 Elgin 6:16 eliminate 23:12 226:22 elimination 227:21 235:22 Elizabeth 34:20 Elliston 2:8 3:9 4:8 42:9 embarked 245:4 emergency 230:19 emphasis 256:16,24 257:13 emphasize 126:25 employed 14:7,9,11 45:21 57:23 73:12 174:13 197:12 305:9 employee 15:12,24 25:2 46:1 53:4,7,18 53:22,23 58:14 60:1 60:2,5 73:13 89:11 93:3 114:8 115:8 124:17,18 125:15,16 125:24 128:15 135:8 148:12 176:1 206:13 226:6,17,18 231:23 242:7 248:9 258:16 298:12 employees 23:7 33:3 35:21 44:9,12,20 46:14,24 47:4 49:3,4 53:1,19 54:17 55:1 55:14,15 58:6,12 64:1,1,5,8,13,15 65:8 65:10,11 72:9,10,10 73:6,9,16,17,24 74:18,19 76:13,15 77:9 80:8 81:1 82:22 83:2,15 84:5 85:23 Page 8 86:9,9,18,19 87:1 89:8,16 92:9,9 101:3 101:11,19,21 104:12 105:7,9,11 107:1 110:9,10 112:11 115:24 116:17 117:9 117:10,21 118:4 119:18 120:12 125:21 126:8,15 127:22 130:13 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114:13 Erie 282:9 erythema 180:3 ESE 6:3 essence 51:24 essential 33:24 essentially 15:9 39:10 59:18 60:10 63:21 70:16 80:23 138:10 161:24 276:20 Esso 9:12,18,20,22,23 10:5 11:2 130:7 177:18 182:8 204:24 209:22 212:9,12,22 213:23 214:13 215:1 216:10,19,24 217:3 217:11,13 218:18 223:25 228:15 253:21 254:6 ESSO's 208:24,25 224:6 226:6 228:19 establish 201:6 286:2 established 27:3 117:15 286:18 287:8 287:16 Estate 1:3 2:3 13:12 302:3 estimate 14:5 19:11 23:18 43:21 131:4 estimation 226:6 et 1:8,16 9:2 94:16 302:8,16 evaluate 250:12 evaluated 216:3 evaluating 44:1 249:2 evaluation 10:24 177:16 226:5 249:18 event 13:23 everybody 168:21 171:1 288:5 evidence 22:9 44:18 261:3 270:5,7,8 evidently 85:4 exact 31:21 exactly 23:15 105:9 134:8 149:25 255:18 266:4 286:13,13 examination 8:6,7,8,9 8:10,11,12,13,14,15 8:16 12:12 13:4 45:20 46:9 197:11 225:2 259:21 262:22 267:2 275:9 276:4 277:9 278:10 279:11 298:1 299:1 303:4 examinations 196:5 example 29:17 47:16 48:24 50:16 109:19 139:6 142:8 180:14 194:25 244:20,25 253:13 285:17 examples 121:15 exams 45:7,8,22 54:19 exceed 178:24 exceeded 72:6 117:1 165:2 274:19 exception 79:2 174:3 excerpt 40:9 excerpts 267:8 excess 241:4,12 excessive 92:24 93:4,14 99:21 241:15 excuse 61:3 74:12,21 81:8 executed 301:11 exercise 249:3 exhaust 179:11 201:6 234:15 257:15 exhibit 13:1 25:22 26:8 27:24 34:9,11 39:5 40:5 41:17,19,22 42:7 52:8 55:23 56:4 56:7,9,11,16 69:13 69:15 74:13 83:21 100:21 153:14 176:5 177:1 183:2,15,18 186:16,18 203:18,19 204:20,22 207:3 208:12,12,14 209:15 209:19 210:9,11,13 211:25 212:1,5 213:9 213:16 216:8,13,14 217:2 218:7 219:8,10 223:4,6,20,24 228:1 228:2 229:2,4 230:15 230:15,18 231:11 233:8 234:25 235:2 235:25 236:2,15 237:16,16,18 239:12 239:16 240:15,15 246:7,7,8,9 247:13 247:19,21 249:15,17 250:21,22 252:19 261:2 291:4 298:3 299:22 exhibits 8:21 9:1 10:1 11:140:12,20 56:4 146:19,22 176:4 218:15 306:11 exist 62:19 137:3 248:18 255:14 existed 25:19 existence 55:5 142:13 257:22,23 258:13,22 296:4 existing 65:19 70:13,17 70:18 243:20 272:3 Expand 214:17 expect 211:4 expected 154:19 272:12,18,23 experience 51:5 59:13 64:24 168:9 171:4 246:1 259:2 276:13 276:16 292:18,19 297:15 experiments 224:18 expert 15:9,11 128:23 153:4 154:6,8,9 expertise 296:18 experts 154:23,24 Expiration 305:19 306:20 EXPIRES 301:16 explain 109:17 267:24 explanation 63:2 Exploration 210:24 explosion 253:11 exposed 22:13,19,25 44:17 88:10 89:12 112:12 156:7 168:20 172:7,19 173:5,10,23 174:23 175:2,23 199:18 206:9 224:20 241:3,11,11 242:9 258:8 263:4,14 264:4 266:3 278:19 294:20 exposure 9:5 10:11 11:13 22:5,8 23:6,12 27:8 34:16 36:21 44:4,9,13 45:18 46:11 47:16 50:25 51:18 53:24 54:15 55:2 57:21 58:5 89:10 92:20 93:13 99:21 105:1 116:18 116:25 117:1,22,25 118:22 119:5,11 126:14,18 134:2 135:6 144:1 147:21 148:12 150:25 151:8 151:8 153:2,11 161:5 178:8,11 180:11,19 181:7 183:2 191:17 191:21 196:6 201:12 201:13 211:5 220:22 221:2 225:9 226:20 226:23 227:13 230:24 236:25 240:18 243:24 250:13 258:7 263:14 263:19 264:1,2 266:6 273:14 276:18,23 287:21 291:13 293:5 294:24 295:2,8,10 297:18 exposures 10:20 23:7 36:6 55:16 95:23 99:20 129:16 206:14 219:15 222:22 227:7 240:1 241:15 273:16 273:18 294:9,12 expressed 301:11 extended 202:5 extensive 112:2 178:12 224:19 extent 95:9 207:23 208:4 250:13 256:9 271:13 295:9 296:7 extracted 231:9 extraordinarily 264:6 extremely 91:12 Exxon 8:24 10:21,22 10:24 11:11 13:13 14:7,9,11,12,13,13 14:14,15,16,20 15:5 15:16,19,23 18:3 20:6 22:20 23:1,11 24:10,12 25:1 26:14 27:16 28:6,9 29:11 31:17 32:24 33:15 35:20,21,22 36:11,19 40:1 42:4,5 44:12,19 44:24 45:10 46:1,8 46:13,20,20,22,25 47:4,19,20,25 48:4,6 48:7,15 51:5 53:1,3 53:22,23 54:25 55:14 57:13 58:19,23,25 60:1 61:7,24 62:2,16 64:1,4,5,13 65:3,11 69:18,21 72:9,10,16 72:23 73:3,7,8,11,12 73:17,20,25 74:18 12/18/06 Page 9 76:13 77:17 78:12 80:10,19 81:12 82:3 82:7,11,11,15,22 83:4,8 84:5 85:23,24 86:9,18,19,21,25 88:9,15,20 91:22,24 92:3,9,9 95:2 98:14 99:13 101:4,11 103:16 104:7,12 105:24 106:17 107:22 110:10 111:3 111:5 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EXX-MOR-005384 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 15 193:23 196:4 200:16 204:20 209:16 213:13,16 223:22 228:2 240:16 252:20 259:17,23 262:24 267:4 274:24 277:11 278:12 279:13 297:22 298:3,23 299:19 300:2 301:1,5 301:9 302:19,24 lasted 270:20 lasting 100:3 late 27:14 81:24 98:13 108:2 112:14 114:5 132:20 133:12,15 258:24 latent 106:20 107:1,3 laundering 170:13 243:22 Laura 4:7 304:4 Lauren 6:19 304:23 law 1:15 2:7 39:15,25 123:17 267:15 268:2 302:15 laws 9:3 38:25 39:7,12 lawsuit 25:17 104:1 267:22 268:8 287:6 288:3,5,17,21 lawsuits 268:2 283:7 lawyer 17:24 113:10 123:25 124:9 159:17 172:18 173:4 175:1 183:16 267:11,14,15 287:25 297:2,3 lawyers 17:5 42:5 55:9 100:22 152:5 212:17 213:20 235:5 259:17 268:8 295:24 296:2,6 lawyer's 174:22 lead 94:16 98:14 256:21 leading 263:15 265:23 266:24 267:23 268:5 268:12 269:6,11 272:16,20,25 273:5 274:21 275:21 276:25 278:21 298:9 298:14 learn 35:23 102:9,10 102:22,25 104:11 283:13,22 learned 68:4 102:6 103:8,13,16 104:3 108:12 114:1 204:13 learning 50:20 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102:6 139:10 139:20,23 140:2,12 140:15,18 141:5,14 141:23 142:18 143:5 143:6,13,18 145:3,19 236:17 256:17 257:25 271:19 middle 98:8,12 103:11 189:7 midget 112:16 257:20 258:3 Mike 124:15 miles 96:25 97:3 185:11 MILLER 6:14 million 93:7 117:16,18 195:20 229:15,18,23 247:5 266:10 274:1,9 274:19 millions 67:7 128:21 153:21 mills 129:6 Min 201:23 mind 90:15 122:1 204:15 227:19 mine 171:20 mineral 132:2,5,7 153:20 215:20 216:4 Mines 201:21 minimize 117:22 201:12 295:8 minimized 221:3 minimizing 92:20 minimum 116:7 minor 48:21 185:14 208:9 271:11 272:7 274:5 minute 226:2 230:3 WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005386 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 17 250:20 minutes 131:1 158:10 241:14 273:25 misinterpreted 234:23 236:19 Mississippi 4:20 7:14 mistake 152:11 mistaken 276:17 Misty 2:6 302:22 305:18 306:19 mixed 93:12 191:17 mixing 193:19 194:2 220:15,17,22 232:7 mlott@ doganwilkins... 7:15 Mobil 11:11 14:13,14 14:17,20 15:6,16,19 33:16 131:6 147:18 155:10,20 156:4 283:9 284:16 285:15 288:6 299:13 Mobil's 15:23 155:11 156:6 model 31:1 moderate 248:15 modern 198:15 modified 236:12,13 modifies 239:1 Module 8:25 28:5 molding 140:16,19 monitored 47:17 231:8 monitoring 114:4 153:12 196:5 297:18 monitors 108:17 month 24:13,17 63:5 65:17 264:5 months 61:7 245:10 279:8 292:9 MORAN 7:8 Morris 172:24 mortality 129:15 motives 103:25 moving 65:25 mud 175:10,13,14,15 MUELLER 4:13 multiple 97:17 267:8 268:15 269:3 270:9 271:10 multi-craft 97:9,14 Mundy 81:11,15 83:2 M-A-X-E-Y 169:7 M.D 134:14,16 187:9 204:3 M.H 237:20 M.S 182:20 M.W 255:7 N N 3:1 naked 202:15 name 13:6,8,10 17:12 17:14,22 18:14 20:13 20:21,22 47:22 49:6 49:8 52:9 54:8 55:2 105:11,15,17 124:23 129:1 133:9 140:25 142:5,10 167:2,5 171:5,8 174:23 201:20 202:25 203:6 246:15 255:3,4 259:25 262:24 267:4 268:22 283:1 300:2 301:10 named 174:6 283:7 names 31:1 55:3 76:24 162:6,7,9 163:7,8 270:10 280:17 naphtha 63:23 narrow 149:18 Nash 34:19 nasty 157:22 national 131:9,13,17 147:2 212:7 250:7,11 nation's 41:9 nature 141:19 253:14 256:12 263:23 273:21 Navy 129:7 154:2 278:13,15,17,20 near 47:15 57:17 58:2 neater 95:10 necessarily 288:8,9 necessary 178:13 need 26:2 67:6 75:15 95:16 195:22 234:16 236:23 238:19 needs 48:19 78:17 negotiation 136:1 negotiations 83:7 Neill 10:2 146:19,19 219:14 neither 305:8 network 23:18 never 29:1 33:16 42:14 60:6,23 63:14,17 71:6 91:10 106:22 115:7 120:11 166:16 167:5 198:13 268:18 285:13 new 1:3 2:3 13:12 37:11 70:16,19 133:22 134:9 137:6,7 138:8 160:13 182:19 182:25 187:17 204:5 208:24 212:9 234:13 249:19 271:23 302:3 news 9:23 217:3,3,11 NICHOLSON 6:20 night 16:5,25 NIOSH 10:24 249:18 250:6 NJ 10:25 noise 256:22 nongovernmental 150:24 nonresponsive 69:11 77:10 87:7 98:1 111:20 112:5 161:14 170:17 173:12 191:22 208:10 211:6 221:5 237:14 239:6 241:24 242:13 245:2 246:5 247:18 249:12 249:14 276:21 287:22 288:14 non-asbestos-contain... 286:7 normal 178:9,11 normally 64:19 68:7 151:17 North 4:19 6:20 Nos 13:1 55:23 210:8 299:22 nose 99:25 notarization 12:12 NOTARY 301:15 notation 148:24 notations 231:13 note 35:8 noted 244:25 301:2 notes 208:22 notice 8:23 17:11 18:12 25:24 26:2 231:7 noticed 17:7,8 196:22 noticing 40:23 notified 44:19 notify 44:9 noting 234:2 247:3 not-regulated 248:2,20 November 223:12 number 17:9 68:2 74:16,24 101:21 102:4 139:10 162:7 198:23 243:10 256:7 270:20 numbered 2:4 12:2 numbers 31:1 75:1 90:25 111:19 176:6 191:17,21 192:25 193:2 264:5 273:19 numeral 29:4 206:2 numerous 285:16 N.P.R.A 146:24 N.V 9:14 10:7 182:20 182:20 O oath 301:9 object 64:9 77:10 87:7 98:1 111:20 112:5 161:14 164:17 170:6 170:17 191:22 208:10 211:6 215:10 215:21 221:5 237:14 239:4,6 241:24 242:13 245:2 246:5 247:18 249:12,14 262:19 263:5,15,20 265:2,14,23 266:24 267:23 268:5,12 269:6,11 270:2,11 271:6,22 272:16,20 272:25 273:5,20 274:21 275:13,21 276:15,21,25 278:21 287:22 288:14 298:9 298:14 objection 14:1 21:16 25:6 27:20 28:18 33:5,20 37:18,25 68:14 69:4,11 73:22 74:3 80:11 95:8,15 98:16,22 103:22 123:10,12 126:16 128:19 136:10 139:1 173:11 175:24 186:8 196:8 233:23 261:2 263:8 280:10,11 281:23 282:19 284:5 287:9,13,18 289:7,10 290:4,25 294:2 objections 11:11 12:5,8 261:4 observation 158:8 observe 90:8 169:22 293:4 observed 90:6,8 177:25 299:11 observing 68:1 obtain 258:10 obtained 209:11 obviously 47:11 89:20 122:24 126:3 137:10 180:18 187:3 293:7 occasion 101:24 occasionally 72:20 occasions 13:17 23:2 165:14,15 occupational 9:4 10:9 10:11 34:16 44:1,3 132:21 134:12 153:15 177:14,17 203:16 230:7 250:7 250:11 256:19 287:20 occupations 187:23 occur 72:20,22 73:1 160:6 244:23 271:10 282:21,24 occurred 103:24 122:18 135:10 147:24 305:14 occurrence 41:7 occurring 121:2,11 220:24 October 10:6 51:11 210:6 224:2 odd 67:8 offered 12:9 126:5 offhand 146:14,14 226:1 office 4:20 17:6 19:5 20:12 85:9 106:11 158:11 159:6 301:12 officer 19:4 302:25 303:19 306:4 officer's 306:9 offices 2:7 19:24 officially 233:10 officials 197:5 off-white 62:24 oh 30:4 47:10 50:14 96:25 120:13 166:18 166:19 170:5 190:7 206:18 207:5 226:1 230:21 260:24 261:21 291:6 296:20 oil 9:7,7,12,17,19,20,22 10:3 11:2 45:13 69:25 122:14 131:20 182:8,19,24,25 183:19 186:25 187:10,16 192:22 193:5 204:24 210:15 210:20,25 213:23 214:14 216:19,24 228:20 236:8,8 246:13,17 oils 126:24 okay 14:15,18 15:5 22:24 23:23 25:13 WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005387 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 18 26:20,24 27:16 30:4 30:17,25 34:5,7,10 36:2,15 40:4,12 41:2 41:15 42:9,20 43:2 47:10,19 50:19 52:12 54:3,12 59:22 65:5 67:9 70:5,9 71:1 74:11,15 75:6,13,18 75:20 77:11,14,16 82:17 90:15,21,25 92:2,5,15 94:2,4,18 96:2,11,18,19 97:19 98:20 100:23 101:20 104:5 108:25 111:6 111:12 113:6 117:5 120:2 130:6 134:25 135:20,23 138:19 139:13 141:13 142:7 142:24 144:17,19 146:12 148:10 149:7 149:20 151:6,13 152:9,23,25 153:13 153:25 154:21 155:17 157:19 158:6 163:17 165:20 166:25 171:5 176:3,7 176:10,16,18,24 177:2,23 178:7 179:14 181:5 182:6 182:18 183:6 184:12 184:17 185:4,8 187:18 189:11,11 190:7,24 192:4,7,9 193:3,4,21 194:1,4 194:19 195:9 198:1,9 199:16 200:1,13,15 200:19 201:15,16,18 203:18 204:15 205:11 206:18,24 207:2,5,7,12 208:13 208:13 209:18 210:10 212:4 213:9 213:17,25 214:16,20 214:25 215:13 216:15 218:11219:9 223:5,9,21 225:18 228:5,19 230:1,4,17 231:25 232:6 235:1 236:1237:17 238:23 239:15 240:23 243:12 247:20 248:10 249:16 250:18 251:11,13,24 252:22 255:12,25 256:14 258:1 259:10 260:25 261:10,21 263:1 267:7,21 268:18,22,25 270:18 270:22 271:2,14 274:25 275:8,23 276:10,22 277:7,11 277:16 278:2,8 280:21 283:13 286:9 291:20,23 292:2 295:5 old 122:18 193:14 194:13,24 222:21 271:4,18,25 272:13 older 227:11 once 16:3 24:13 59:19 68:6,6 148:22 168:14 289:19 292:17 ones 130:2 132:25 162:12 194:11 195:5 Oney 1:2,3,12,13 2:2,3 13:11,12 15:18 18:7 22:4,20 26:15 42:1 48:5,7,13,18 56:21 59:4,22 60:6,13,20 60:23 62:2 64:7 65:6 66:5 68:23 71:6 129:5,15 154:2,25 194:9,18 195:6 205:20,21 263:11 270:6,15 271:18 272:12 275:11 278:13,25 280:9 281:8 282:13 286:24 302:2,3,12,13 Oney's 47:22 48:3 58:17 273:3 ongoing 286:5,7,20 online 79:6,10 open 68:7 opened 19:24 280:17 opening 148:17 operate 253:22 operating 46:22 72:5 147:10 158:4 160:2 160:25 165:2 178:9 178:12 operation 77:25 198:14 199:5 201:5 206:11 231:10 236:24 257:11 293:18 294:24 operations 9:9 10:12 38:2,9 52:10 67:4 92:24 121:23 153:12 186:23 188:8 189:10 189:25 190:5,17,18 190:19,22,25 191:14 191:24 192:5,6 194:8 194:15,17 195:4 198:2,11 199:17,19 200:3 205:18 227:8 230:14 231:14 243:5 243:15 244:24 249:23 opinion 21:17 22:25 86:24 89:8 103:9 110:3 129:5 187:23 262:8 298:6,12 opportunity 26:7 56:3 125:24 opposed 138:20 149:21 232:24 opposite 105:10 246:3 opposition 91:20 option 120:10,16,21 oral 1:20,25 11:7,8,10 56:5 123:3 302:25 oranges 258:21 order 60:15 79:12 195:19 196:6 197:12 206:15 266:10 orders 280:24 organization 130:11 133:14 146:23 147:6 147:8,12 organized 149:6 orientation 24:11 155:19 156:4 166:21 original 12:16 70:19 230:19 306:3,7,10 originally 53:11 139:12 195:18 OSHA 18:24 19:1,3,6 19:13,19 20:2,10,16 20:19 27:6,13 38:10 38:19 39:16,22 46:7 49:15,25 117:3 148:4 148:5,10,16 149:9,15 149:25 153:24 168:13 169:23 229:22 230:20 231:5 231:18 232:3,11,11 236:13 237:11 238:21 239:2,21 241:5 248:22,24 256:17,25 257:8 260:8 263:19 287:17 287:19 298:12 299:3 299:10,12 OSHA's 9:2 34:14 258:25 outcome 305:11 outlined 254:21 outside 65:20 84:6 137:8 158:21 284:9 out-in-the-field 51:5 259:2 overall 46:19 101:14 185:13 255:24 overexposed 265:25 overexposure 265:21 266:6 overhauling 181:22,23 overlook 236:21 oversight 245:1 Owens 268:25 Owens-Corning 222:10 Owens-Illinois 4:17 267:5 268:23 304:8 O'CONNELL 6:14 P P 3:1,1 6:8 304:19 Pabco 162:15 163:13 175:6 packing 175:10,13,14 175:17,23 182:5 260:19,23 page 8:2,22 28:9,20 29:3,22 30:1,2,15 32:1,22,22 33:1,1,6 33:25 59:5,5 63:4,4 74:8,10,18,22,22,23 75:1,2,15,16,16,19 75:25 76:2,5,23 77:5 77:13,13 78:8,9 79:4 81:7,8,9 82:19,19 83:22,23 84:10 85:7 86:16 87:10 88:7 90:24 91:3 98:3 99:19 100:16,19 101:9,9 102:7,21 104:23 106:15 107:8 107:24,24 109:6 110:20,24 112:20 113:13 114:2 115:4 118:6,6,6 119:2,2 120:2,4 123:4,7 124:10 151:15,16,20 152:13 153:18 156:22 157:19 158:7 159:17,21 160:12,15 163:5,13,22 164:2,8 165:4,13,20,21 166:25 167:1,7,19,20 168:18 170:2,19 171:14,24 172:17 173:3,13 174:22,25 174:25 178:5 179:23 187:7,13 188:5,8 189:23,24 191:7,7 192:3,14 193:14,17 193:25 195:4,12 196:21,23 198:7,7,22 198:22,23,24 199:9 199:12,23,25 200:13 201:17 202:12,23 206:18 207:3,16 217:25 225:18,24,25 226:4,11,15 227:18 227:18 228:1 229:7 229:24 236:20 243:8 243:8 250:2,2,16,17 251:9 252:4 253:9,20 260:16,17,23,24 261:11,14,18 262:10 262:10,14 276:10 306:5 pages 83:21 151:12 196:21 207:2 225:12 250:16 262:11 PAGE/LINE 300:3 paid 43:3 paint 256:11 paper 34:3 102:17 216:2 220:11 224:18 224:19 226:6,12,15 papers 221:17 paperwork 158:11 paragraph 123:13 178:9 187:22 189:7 189:10 190:6 195:13 195:14 196:23 197:8 199:8,9,9,10,24 201:19 202:12 207:16 219:19 221:12,14,14,16,21 222:6,6,15,19 236:21 239:24 240:10 243:10 244:3 245:4 260:21,22 262:15 paraphrasing 187:19 parlance 115:13 148:11 part 12:9 24:4 27:5,5 36:5 58:1 62:8 64:3 64:15 71:15 76:18 77:3 83:6 87:25 93:12 98:7,8,13 102:7 103:1,12 104:14 106:6 135:12 137:19 139:19 158:15 178:2 182:18 188:12 189:7,23 WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005388 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 197:9 233:22 234:4 245:9 247:8 255:23 256:11 285:6 295:15 participate 128:10 130:13 participated 130:20 272:13 participating 128:15 particles 67:7 93:7 117:16,18 153:21 191:25 192:17 195:17,20 229:14,15 229:18,23 274:1,10 274:19 particular 40:9 54:15 92:13 94:12 145:16 183:8 191:13 192:5 199:23 203:24 206:22 207:3 211:22 212:14 217:7 218:17 219:3 234:4 253:8 256:21 270:18 299:9 particularly 151:5 265:9 particulate 191:20 parties 12:2,5,10 283:9 303:20 305:9 306:14 parts 81:3 121:24 122:25 145:25 228:24 party 303:6 Pasadena 20:3,4 38:9 95:13 264:10 Pascagoula 7:14 pass 239:9 259:16,18 267:1279:9 passages 151:24 passed 39:8 273:3 Patronella 123:17 124:9 159:17 payment 43:1 peak 64:21 192:17,23 193:6,10 241:15 273:16,18 294:9,12 295:1 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205:20 228:24 272:11 296:4 Page 19 places 10:9 120:9 229:9 plaintiff 268:2 276:6 290:7,10,14 306:10 plaintiffs 1:5,14 2:1 3:3 13:11 154:25 302:5 302:14 303:22 plaintiffs 11:12 154:23 163:19 plant 9:6 10:25 25:3 46:9 53:3 57:10,14 57:15,25 58:25 62:15 63:11 65:3 74:2 81:12 83:10 84:21 85:10,11 91:8 96:22 97:3 104:7 105:1 106:2 111:25 122:9 126:3 145:3 149:9,16 150:1 155:21 168:15 177:5 182:19 192:20 201:2 241:3 244:13 249:22 250:13 252:1 280:3,8 286:25 299:16 plants 11:13 27:7 31:18 35:22 37:8,16 132:3 133:24 139:18 141:8 141:15 153:3 210:19 217:14 219:3,6 230:10 283:6,10,11 285:21 286:21 platformer 63:6,22,23 play 77:24 players 78:1 plays 188:12 Plaza 3:10,21 4:3 please 13:6 73:5 115:19 284:12 plus 56:2 101:14,17 279:3 pneumoconiosis 119:20 211:2,9,21 point 31:20 57:17 59:17 91:2 101:10 147:24 162:22 233:4 233:12,17 253:24 254:8,9 264:15 296:15 pointing 76:7 policies 58:7,9 273:2 policy 15:24 89:23 113:23 114:20 127:1 127:5,7,9 248:1,19 254:16 pool 47:12 poor 226:12 population 41:9 112:4 WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005389 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 20 portable 258:15 portion 22:4 23:16 37:24 214:11 posed 287:24 position 80:9,18 85:5 218:22 280:18 positive 116:6 242:24 possession 26:4 204:7 possibility 57:17 67:14 115:15 121:5 122:6 122:11 175:21 185:25 200:5 204:9 204:10 281:14,25 possible 80:1 97:4 166:12 178:14 195:10 208:7 233:2 240:1258:4 281:10 281:11 285:4 possibly 24:6 79:6,10 180:19 194:13 202:4 post 4:20 242:16 244:8 postmortem 225:2 pot 90:2 potential 23:12 36:20 37:3 47:2 55:16 57:20 58:5 88:10 94:12 98:5,11 133:2 149:2 161:2 180:2,18 220:22 265:25 291:13 294:1 298:4 potentially 9:25 22:5,7 22:15,22 44:17 87:1 218:10 219:1 253:11 299:15 Potsavich 246:19 pounds 247:5 power 169:16 179:5,11 221:11 222:1 234:13 234:14,22 253:13,22 283:9,11 POWERS 5:19 practical 66:9 practice 46:22 64:18 72:16 77:17,19 83:14 152:12 156:5 179:11 197:22,23 232:10 251:23,24 252:11 practiced 108:19 practices 11:2 15:23 21:8 65:9 73:10 127:22 147:10 151:7 236:23 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178:20 185:18 188:7 202:3 205:8 217:10 232:16 254:25 266:22 267:17 274:9 280:13 realm 115:14 reapplied 157:1 reason 22:6 33:21 104:2 120:19 121:7 126:13 132:5,7,9 136:7 159:14 160:1 160:23 167:13 172:12 175:22 181:6 183:14 184:19 189:12 190:10 191:12 198:19 206:25 208:1 212:25 220:19 222:3,17 275:11 294:19 300:3 reasonable 63:2 79:20 204:19 reasons 127:12 306:6 recall 16:19 20:21,23 20:24 28:11 36:17 50:8 51:12 52:5,6,8 52:21 55:3 61:10 62:18 63:7 65:20 66:19,21,25 67:2,5 81:15 88:23 93:1 96:11,14 97:6 98:5 101:2 104:8 108:2,6 108:23,25 135:17 143:9 146:22 147:23 149:8 152:16 155:12 155:13,24 156:7 160:5,7 162:9,14 163:1,3 164:10 165:21 166:23 191:5 198:5 244:18 266:20 267:9,15 268:16,21 268:22 276:10 282:14 283:2,8 284:6 284:19,25 286:25 288:3 290:22 292:14 293:1,19 294:7 295:13 297:5 299:9 receive 21:22 43:15 131:5,13 received 21:23,25 26:5 53:4,5,7 131:19,24 132:25 136:16,22 220:14 221:13 231:6 264:19,23 265:12 receiving 16:19 Recess 55:22 89:3 122:22 148:2 213:12 252:18 recognize 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135:24 295:16 requests 16:18 136:24 require 64:21 91:13 138:20 232:11 287:20 required 46:14,16 58:3 58:4,6 89:8,22,24 90:11 117:18 195:23 214:18 234:23 requirement 89:13,20 120:12 161:1 175:25 232:11 237:10 requirements 58:15 117:4,17 138:12 156:6 161:13 237:12 239:2 240:10 305:13 requires 234:22 requiring 235:12 requisitioned 280:22 Requisitions 280:24 research 10:5 133:21 134:13,23 182:9 209:2,5 223:25 224:6 228:15,20 reservations 245:5 reserve 261:3 reserved 12:8 residual 207:22 resources 293:7 respect 10:12 231:14 268:14,25 270:13 respirator 89:11,19 93:22 120:12 195:24 272:24 respirators 46:14,25 47:4 89:7,9,16 92:23 94:15 107:15 120:3,9 WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005392 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 23 120:10 201:7 235:10 235:13 240:11 respiratory 50:25 58:5 89:13 161:2 172:16 174:4 176:2 200:4 241:23 242:12 respond 33:13 211:11 responds 124:11 response 119:8 123:8 123:19 136:21 148:20 154:22 213:15 250:10 responses 136:23 responsibilities 236:23 responsibility 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291:2,24 292:13,18,25 293:13 294:8,8,11 297:1 right-hand 261:11 rigid 214:17 rigs 257:12 risen 19:17 risk 261:16 262:1 263:19 266:6 298:13 riveting 253:13 RM-10 32:14 RM-650 32:13 RM-670 31:5 32:9 RNA 134:24 Road 6:15 Robert 174:17,23 Rockdale 286:24 287:7 rods 198:16 276:14 292:12 297:5 Roggli's 155:5 role 15:22 36:6 187:15 Roman 29:4 206:2 Ron 246:18 248:10 roof 249:1 room 55:19 135:13 rooms 170:13 Root 48:5,11,16 57:24 58:18,20,22 60:4 61:14,19,24 64:1,23 77:2 81:20 83:2 86:5 135:19 137:9,13 259:8 273:4 Root's 48:12 Rouge 9:12,20,22 11:2 182:9 183:4 204:24 205:6,9,13,15,19,22 208:25 209:1,6,22 213:24 215:14 216:20 217:9,10,17 218:24 219:11,16 235:20 241:3 243:3,5 244:16,21 245:21 250:24 251:4 252:24 266:11 rough 139:10 route 211:16 252:6 routine 27:4 Roy 9:9 183:5 186:19 ROYSTON 4:13 Rubber 9:18 212:8,21 rule 48:2,21 71:19 120:11 174:3 229:8 305:13 306:1,12 Rulemakings 9:2 34:15 rules 2:9 12:4 39:19 47:18 53:17 71:9,10 71:11,18,18 135:8 run 211:16 running 261:2 R.S 10:7 S s 3:1 116:18,18 118:8,8 Safe 11:2 250:25 252:4 252:24 safety 9:17 10:11 21:6 21:7,9,14,15 36:3,5 36:19 38:14 44:8 47:17,18,19 48:1,1,4 48:7,15,21 53:3,8,17 54:1 55:13 72:10 73:21 74:1,19 76:10 76:19 83:3,6,9 89:22 89:23 91:6,22 92:5 93:5 94:5,14 99:24 100:17,21 101:4 108:20 112:21 114:7 116:19,21 120:7,13 126:21 128:11,12 131:1,9,14,17 134:25 135:7,8,12 147:10 151:22 152:15,20 155:20,20 156:5 161:11 172:15 176:1 201:21 202:15 210:14 211:1,8 250:7 250:11 251:18 253:5 254:12 259:11 288:16 safety-type 64:14 sales 246:25 249:4 salesman 248:7 sample 274:9 294:19 samples 166:7,9 241:8 241:10,17 242:1 258:10,14 273:22 294:14,21 295:11 sampling 26:21 27:1,4 27:7,10 112:7,13,15 115:8 166:1,6 186:9 257:14,19 258:2,15 273:22 296:23 sandblast 207:13 sat 135:13 satisfactory 214:19 save 152:3 saw 33:16 70:5 87:2 90:3 93:20 121:22 159:19 161:3 163:23 164:5 165:9 166:16 167:21 168:14,16 169:13 172:20 173:19 210:17 234:16 240:23 268:19 280:16,16 299:10 sawed 90:4 167:24 179:5 sawing 160:20 169:17 193:6 222:1 saws 179:5 221:9,11 222:1 saying 57:16 59:22 71:15 75:2,2 79:1 88:23 98:24 99:9 100:6 110:1 125:13 127:8 178:5 202:13 208:4 209:3 233:3,14 244:23 255:19 263:6 281:15,20 295:3 297:13 says 28:5,21 29:23 30:5 30:18,18,21 31:5 32:13 39:8 77:16 85:13 88:21 89:24 91:5 92:23 94:13,14 100:20 104:22 113:13 114:5 118:20 124:10,15 125:4,15 129:4 158:4 164:1,20 165:4,13,17 168:18 171:15 173:19 175:7 178:8,11 179:4 180:2 180:6 184:15 185:5 185:16,17,19 187:22 188:12,16,20 189:2 189:18,25 193:18 195:16 197:8,9 198:13,25 199:4,12 200:2 202:1 206:11 207:17 210:6 214:16 216:2 221:1,17,21 WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005393 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 222:7,9,13,19 226:19 226:22 227:5 229:14 232:14,19 233:9 234:7,13,14 235:14 235:18 236:21 237:24 238:4,24 239:24,24 240:5,9 243:10,13,20 244:3 245:4 248:15,16,17 251:14 252:4 253:16 254:10,19 260:22 261:15,19,19 scheduled 149:22 school 124:24,25 science 43:25 Sciences 37:12 scientific 37:11 129:24 scope 229:8 243:15 SCP 10:14 scrap 193:9 194:14 195:3 239:25,25 240:6 scrape 68:9 scraped 68:10,11,13 screen 45:8 se 161:5 258:6 287:20 seal 181:24 301:12 Sealing 3:13 304:1 seals 182:2 second 28:9,20 30:15 37:19 48:2 88:15,19 122:21 179:23 206:18 219:18 222:6 230:3 234:4 241:21 243:8 252:15 262:14 secondary 207:22 section 65:16 92:23 102:5 153:23 159:10 177:25 179:18 183:2 183:9 185:16,17 189:25 190:16,20 192:6,10 198:4 199:1 199:4 201:17 204:3 206:11 222:14 233:8 234:12 246:14 252:3 260:17 sections 29:5 187:2 SEDGWICK 7:8 see 16:15 23:8,25 25:4 25:7,11 26:8 27:7 28:9 29:8,23,25 30:7 30:20 31:2 32:6 33:3 33:9,10,21,24 35:4 40:25 50:8 57:20 67:1 69:24,25 75:2 76:6,7 77:6 93:8,10 93:13 96:14 99:2,8 99:10 105:23 108:21 109:9 112:11 124:7 124:12 135:15 138:16 147:20 148:5 151:17,18,20,24 160:17 162:11,12 163:24 164:4 166:20 167:10,21 168:12,13 169:22,24 173:14 177:20 178:1,9 179:20,25 182:9 183:2,12,21 189:5,11 189:21 190:3,8,19 192:10 195:14 196:23 198:25 199:9 199:14 201:24 202:25 205:4 206:5,6 206:21,21 207:5 209:10,20 211:20 212:7 214:15 215:25 216:22 217:1,4,16,24 218:14 219:6,6 221:13,14,15,16 222:7,14 223:7 225:11,16 231:12,12 233:11 234:15,16 237:19 238:19,19 239:17 240:18,19,19 240:22 241:21 242:17,17 245:18,23 245:23 246:10,20 247:6,8 249:13 253:24 254:6 260:6 260:20 261:17,22,25 262:4 285:20 288:25 291:11,22 292:3 299:5 seeing 40:22 152:16 165:21 286:25 292:21 seen 20:16 27:25 33:17 33:18 35:2 38:24 39:11 40:9,10,24 42:14,22 69:16 100:24 127:14 128:8 136:17,23,24 142:10 142:10 145:14 154:4 154:16 155:5 162:7 162:11,19,20,22,24 166:1,6 168:11 176:14 177:7 182:11 183:24 203:22 205:2 205:10 206:22 208:19 210:11 212:14 213:18 216:16 217:7 218:12 219:10,12 224:12 225:22 228:17 231:19 235:2,3,7 236:6 238:12 240:13 240:20 242:23 247:21 249:8 250:3 250:10 251:1 270:5,7 279:24 283:2 285:24 288:21 299:10 SEGAL 3:15 Segment 29:22 30:16 32:2 33:6 selection 30:19,25 32:6 32:8,12 Selikoff 37:1 95:22 225:5 265:9 Selikoffs 37:13 38:18 send 141:9 sense 126:2 256:13 sent 106:10 136:21 sentence 189:9,17,18 189:24 190:5 221:17 221:21 239:24 261:17,25 262:5 separate 51:23 53:1,20 210:7 separately 92:19 September 10:25 250:1 serious 187:25 226:20 serve 251:15 278:13,15 served 306:13 service 30:21 32:5 213:24 Services 209:12 Session 39:9 204:4 set 229:15 230:23 241:5 severe 48:24 shaking 248:22 share 147:9,19 shared 120:6 SHAVER 5:8 sheets 158:12 Shell 3:21 shift 264:4 274:3 294:18 ship 58:25 106:4,4 shipyards 129:6 shirt 292:16 shop 54:9,11,14 55:4 55:10,12 117:20 shops 292:21 short 64:25 264:2 273:23 274:8 Shorthand 2:6 302:22 Page 24 shortly 36:13 short-term 294:21 shoulder 83:18 90:16 92:22 156:16 show 16:11 20:25 25:21 26:21 27:23 34:8 41:16,18,19 42:7,13 74:5 78:8 123:2 152:8 224:14 228:21 241:1,10 242:1,7 256:4 291:7 showed 120:14 225:1 244:16 267:12 269:3 291:3 shower 100:2 showers 125:21,23 126:7,20 127:12,21 170:13 showing 20:16 197:25 212:22 276:11 shown 92:8 100:17,22 255:12 267:8 270:8 271:3 276:10 306:14 shows 22:9 216:8 294:24 shutdown 63:6,9,14,20 72:20 128:18 shutdowns 63:25 64:8 64:19,20,24 65:4 157:13,21 shy 21:4 sick 113:17 side 65:10,10 72:17,17 72:24,24 73:17,17 77:17,18 79:12,12,18 79:18 82:22,23,23,23 205:22 side-bar 273:20 Siegel 150:7,12 signature 8:18 12:13 300:1 301:1 303:4 306:5 signed 12:16 125:5 significance 111:19 192:24 193:1 245:6 significant 260:10 262:18 signs 109:20 197:13 242:16 244:8 silence 238:6 298:4 silent 298:5 silica 94:9,17,25 179:24 180:11,12,15,16 181:8 256:21 silicate 66:12 138:15 143:9 184:10 214:18 214:24 215:19,24 216:5 217:19 222:9 Silicosis 180:2 similar 81:19 99:2 195:6 205:19 249:23 252:25 255:18 266:13 SIMMONS 4:19 Simpson 49:19 50:17 SINGER 3:15 single 115:7 sir 13:7 14:7 16:4,16 19:13 25:22 41:13 42:8 81:1491:19 100:25 120:7,16 141:20 144:23 152:23 178:23 183:1 186:21 196:21 205:7 208:16 209:19 215:5 218:14 239:14 250:20 275:11 277:17 278:2 279:2,9 sit 98:20 105:18 site 36:12 45:2,5 125:25 126:1 146:2 148:23 152:14 159:7 252:8 sitting 13:20 149:4 situation 15:15 48:20 48:23,24 226:21 286:6 situations 97:5 125:9 size 185:6,7 192:1 195:18 266:21 292:22,23 293:5 sizes 62:24 214:17 skguidry @ germer.co... 5:15 skill 27:17 255:15,21 Skills 8:24 28:6 255:13 291:9 skimmed 210:18 skin 59:7 skipping 33:2 41:17 sledge 109:2 sledgehammer 109:17 sledgehammers 109:14 small 71:16 166:12 185:9 214:8 293:7 smaller 156:25 266:15 271:13 smelting 286:21 smoking 48:24 snapshot 299:8 snow 91:13 168:4,8 societies 37:14 WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005394 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 25 soldering 253:13 somebody 44:7 48:4,24 80:19 89:19 102:10 142:5 148:5 somewhat 234:9 266:15 286:22 soon 79:6,10 244:5 sophisticated 117:8 sorry 32:23 33:1,2 37:2061:18 71:18 74:14,17 75:12,14 78:8 80:17 83:18 90:23,24,25 118:6 136:14 167:1 186:13 192:2 193:22 198:7 206:20 213:11 215:5 218:14 221:6 226:3 229:20 230:16 235:23 244:14 250:1 250:19,20 278:7 284:12 290:18 sort 276:14 sound 158:11 215:9 sounds 93:2 110:1 149:10 247:14 256:10 source 64:16 200:23 207:21 sources 35:17 37:10 south 2:8 3:5 4:8 19:22 225:14 southern 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51:6 166:21 257:13 259:3 Spiral 67:21 spiral-wound 29:8 34:1 sponge 144:3,13 188:17,20,21 189:3 189:19 190:1 216:1 220:11 221:17 spot 206:17 263:13 sprag 59:17,24 60:7,14 sprags 59:6,19 61:8 Spratt 11:6 sprayed 139:17 141:13 141:14,16 spun 215:19 216:4 square 189:19,20 190:1 190:2 St 5:20 staff 50:17 128:14 staffed 64:22 stage 220:17 stainless 59:7 Stanco 257:5 standard 5:11 9:7,12 9:19,20,22 10:11 11:2 43:6 46:22 106:6 117:7,17,23 130:7 158:4 160:2,25 182:8,19,24,25 186:25 187:10,16 204:24 212:9 213:23 214:14 216:19,24,25 228:20 230:20 234:14,21 241:4 244:5 251:23,24 252:11 274:2,10 304:14 standards 10:11 137:19,19 147:11 233:10 263:19 standard-setting 38:22 standing 159:9 standpoint 38:23 44:7 59:13 126:2,21 200:9 215:23 236:14 Stanley 5:2 171:8 304:9 start 54:20 76:2 104:15 131:3 133:10,11 143:16 145:2 158:7 184:9 196:16 202:17 started 27:11,12 43:19 45:10 46:6 81:22 82:24 88:2,5 97:9 98:13 112:17 124:19 130:11 147:5 176:4 273:15 293:18 starting 71:5 76:23 77:13 79:4 81:10 82:19 83:23 86:16 87:10 91:3 98:4 100:19 102:8 106:15 109:6 118:9 119:2 120:3 139:16 173:3 175:1 260:17 starts 76:6 82:20 120:18 178:2 195:13 221:19 260:18,22 state 2:7 4:19 9:3 13:6 19:22 38:25 39:7,20 74:18 103:13 105:9 153:15 209:21 212:20 224:15 226:11 227:19 229:8 229:9,17,24 253:20 301:7,16 302:23 stated 2:10 155:10 156:3 160:6 164:16 179:1 299:14 statement 51:8 79:4,20 83:15 87:8 97:11 115:7 120:23 122:19 127:19,20 129:9 138:23 156:10 157:3 178:18 204:19 232:17 259:5 262:5 264:14 statements 103:20 125:6 states 37:9,16 52:13 95:6 133:24 150:21 154:2 163:22 187:18 201:21 225:6 226:8 state-of-the-art 11:13 153:2,9 262:5 stating 59:9 96:11 155:12,24 156:8 stay 224:15 steam 9:20 67:2 108:20 121:2 194:16 214:1,6 214:7,8,18 steel 59:7 129:6 Steele 7:7 305:3 Steering 238:4 Stephen 5:12 304:13 sticker 152:10 sticky 151:25 Stillman 181:10 Stipulations 8:4 12:1 stirred 220:15 stock 214:17 stopped 144:10 storage 66:1 71:23 store 201:3 Stovall 11:7,8,10,10 17:14,25 18:2 25:9 42:13,15 43:1,1 56:1 56:6,10,14,15 74:6 74:18 76:9 78:25 80:3,3,7 83:16 85:4 89:5,14 91:3 92:2 97:1 98:21 99:8 101:8 110:17 111:1 112:20,21 118:11 121:6,14,22 122:24 123:7,18 124:9,11 126:19 156:13 163:20,21 267:9,21 268:8 270:5 297:13 Stovall's 74:10 84:10 91:23 98:3 104:21 105:8 109:5 110:5,25 118:7 123:18 156:21 268:19 287:24 streams 63:24 Street 2:8 3:10 4:3,8,19 6:9,20 7:3,8 strict 60:10 71:14,14 strictly 210:21 275:14 Strike 235:23 250:19 STRONG 6:8 structure 59:16 studied 179:6 studies 46:1 68:12,16 68:17,17 129:15,20 129:22,24 198:14 199:21 227:1 262:11 265:8 276:18 277:5 290:16,19 296:11 297:5,8,11 study 9:22 105:20 138:16 187:23 199:17 202:24 209:12 216:20 224:23 225:5 265:10 265:13 276:23 studying 269:21 stuff 109:12 271:25 296:8 stumped 113:19,24 styled 2:4 subject 209:11 219:14 237:20 238:5 270:24 272:4,7 submitted 303:2 subpoena 11:12 16:17 17:4 123:8,20,23 124:3 125:8 295:12 subpoenaed 124:1 subscribe 34:24 subscribed 301:10 subsequent 152:19 202:6 296:11 subsidiaries 177:18 substance 41:10 206:8 206:12 substances 34:17 129:17 256:19 299:15 substantial 298:13 substantially 213:7 substitute 137:25 138:11,24 139:9,14 140:1,3,18 141:4 142:16,17 143:1,14 143:22,25 144:13 145:6,18 286:10 substituted 143:11 substitutes 29:13,15 WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005395 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 26 138:8,9,16 139:4,11 140:17 143:4,7 successor 228:14 suction 122:9 192:20 sufficient 138:23 suggests 226:20 Suite 2:8 3:16 4:9,14 5:3,8,14 6:3,9,15,21 7:3,9 305:21 306:21 suited 45:20 Summary 9:6 10:5 11:2 177:5 179:20 182:7,18 224:1 250:25 252:24 summer 142:20,22 292:3,6 superceded 229:22 Superex 97:6,8 superintendent 85:1 supervise 101:19 supervised 73:9 101:18 supervising 80:4,7 85:23 86:1,9,11 101:17 103:21 supervision 64:4 82:2 101:12 197:10 supervisor 25:2 36:18 48:9,10,13,16 58:18 58:2173:12,12 80:6 80:13,16,20 84:13,14 84:19,25 85:2,2,14 88:8,15,20 91:6 93:5 101:20 110:6 152:15 158:19,24,25 171:21 172:2 288:16 supervisors 25:2 35:23 50:10 58:23,23 77:9 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124:20 302:10 transition 30:11 139:19 transmittal 11:4,6 208:17,23 209:23 transmitting 41:23 42:10 transport 65:17,23,25 WWW.LEGALPARTNERS.COM 713-935-1611 EXX-MOR-005397 BRUCE LARSON 12/18/06 Page 28 66:4 254:1 Travis 155:9 TRCP 8:20 305:14 306:1 treating 122:9 192:20 Trembly 18:14 28:12 38:5,13 40:12 42:10 52:4 151:10,14 152:8 266:17 Trembly's 20:19 21:2 21:24 34:12 40:6,11 40:23 149:7 trench 275:17 trial 12:9,15 14:25 18:24 43:7 99:7 102:18 124:4 187:5 289:20 295:25 tried 55:7 62:21 77:20 110:2 204:13 224:9 troughs 220:15 Troy 77:15 125:6 true 92:7 98:11 99:9 140:4,20 156:1 203:11 263:9 301:1 303:1 Truffer 4:13 304:6 truth 13:20 truthful 125:6 try 65:13 74:25 99:7,11 108:7 113:6 114:9 128:17 132:23 176:8 198:4 trying 81:9 90:25 138:13 143:9 156:13 224:15 226:7 299:7 tube 174:17 tubes 284:6 tumors 226:9 turbine 78:17 270:23 turbines 78:5,11,14 281:13,21 282:5 turn 74:9 77:5 81:7 83:22 98:2 110:24 137:12 159:8 166:25 177:21 186:16,17 198:4,5,24 199:24 200:13 205:25 206:3 207:2,3 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