Document 4JKNp8MvDQKNZBm5y5pJdVN7Q

1 NO. 7591 2 SHIRLEY TATE INDIVIDUALLY I IN THE DISTRICT COURT AND AS NEXT FRIEND OF \ 3 JOHNATHAN TATE AND AS X EXECUTRIX OF THE ESTATE OF I 4 JAMES FISK TATE; VICKIE TATE I AND JAMES FISK TATE, JR. 1 46TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 51 VS. CERTAIN-TEED CORP., X 6 BESTWALL GYPSUM COMPANY I AND GEORGIA PACIFIC CORP. X HARDEMAN COUNTY, TEXAS 7 8 NO. 85-1559-C 9 SHIRLEY TATE INDIVIDUALLY X IN THE DISTRICT COURT AND AS EXECUTRIX OF THE X 10 ESTATE OF JAMES FISK TATE, X AS NEXT FRIEND OF JOHNATHAN X 11 TATE, A MINOR, AND ON BEHALF X OF JAMES FISK TATE, JR. AND X 12 VICKI TATE GIBSON X 94TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT X 13 VS. X I 14 MINNESOTA MINING & X MANUFACTURING CORPORATION X 15 (3M CORPORATION), ET AL X NUECES COUNTY, TEXAS 16 17 18 DEPOSITION OF JOHN L. MYERS 19 JULY 27, 1987 20 21 22 DUPLICATE 23 FILE COPY 24 25 COPY UCAREF00012118 1 PPEARANCES: 2 MR. STANLEY R. WATSON Attorney at Law 3 P. 0. 3ox 50G Quanah, Texas 79252 4 MR. 3. MILLS LATHAM 5 Latham & Moss 1660 Texas Commerce Plaza 6 Corpus Christi, Texas 78470 II ! 7 COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 8 MR. J. BRUCE WELCH Freeman & Hawkins 9 2800 First Atlanta Tower Atlanta, Georgia 30383 10 COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANTS, 11 CERTAIN-TEED CORP., BESTWALL GYPSUM CO., and GEORGIA-PACIFIC CORPORATION 12 MR. KEVIN HEDGES 13 Butler & Binion 1600 Allied Bank Plaza 14 Houston, Texas 77002 15 COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT, RAYMARK INDUSTRIES, INC. 16 MR. MARK DEKOCH 17 White, Huseman, Pletcher & Powers 2100 The Six Hundred Building 18 Corpus Christi, Texas 78473 19 COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT, MINNESOTA MINING & MANUFACTURING CO. 20 MR. GEORGE SHIPLEY 21 Baker & Botts One Shell Plaza 22 Houston, Texas 77002 23 COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANTS, OWENS-ILLINOIS, INC. AC & S, INC., CELOTEX CORP., EAGLE-PICHER 24 INDUSTRIES, INC., FIBREBOARD CORP., H.K. PORTER CO., INC., KEENE CORP., 25 PITTSBURGH CORNING CORP., NATIONAL GYPSUM COMPANY, UNITED STATES GYPSUM CORP. ( UCAREF00012119 _____________ ______________________________________________________ 3 1 Deposition and answers of JOHN L. MYERS, who 2 resides in Kings City, California, taken herein by the 3 counsel for the Plaintiffs, before GENE CHATHAM, a Notary 4 Public in and for the State of Texas, on the 27th day of iII 5 July, A.D. 1987, between the hours of 2:00 p.m. and 6 6:05 p.m., in the law offices of Latham & Moss, 1660 7 Texas Commerce Plaza, Corpus Christi, Nueces County, 8 Texas, in accordance with the following stipulations I I 9 and agreements : 10 IT WAS AGREED by and between counsel for the 11 Plaintiffs and Defendants in the above-numbered and 12 styled cause that all formalities, including issuance of 13 Notice, are waived specifically, and that the oral 14 deposition of JOHN L. MYERS may be taken herein forthwith 15 before JOHN L. MYERS, a Notary Public in and for the 16 State of Texas, said deposition being taken with the 1I 17 same force and effect as though all requirements of the 18 statutes and rules had been fully complied with. 19 IT WAS FURTHER AGREED that no objections need be 20 made by any party at the time of taking said deposition, 21 except objections as to the form of the question or the 22 responsiveness of the answer, which if not made during 23 the deposition, are waived; but if and when said 24 deposition or any portion thereof is offered in evidence 25 on the trial of this cause by any party hereto, it shall UCAREF00012120 4 1 be subject to any and all other legal objections, such 2 objections to be made at the time of the tender, the 3 same as though the witness were on the stand personally 4 testifying. 5 IT WAS FURTHER AGREED that the witness must appear 6 before any Notary Public or official authorized to 7 administer oaths, and at such time the witness has the 8 privilege of reading over said deposition and making any I I 9 corrections that he finds to be necessary, such 10 corrections to be made in accordance with the Rules of 11 Civil Procedure. 12 IT WAS FURTHER AGREED that if the original deposition 13 is not signed and filed before time of trial or any hearin 14 a copy of the deposition can be used, the same as if it 15 were the executed original. 16 IT WAS FURTHER AGREED that after said deposition has 17 been returned into court in accordance with these 18 stipulations and agreements, it will be treated by the 19 parties hereto and may be used herein with the same force 20 and effect as though all statutes and rules relating to 21 the taking and returning into court of depositions had 22 been fully complied with. 23 24 25 UCAREF00012121 D 1 -5.2.CEEDINGS 2 3 MR. LATEIAM: Would you mark these as 4 exhibits before we begin, please. 5 6 {Whereupon, the above-mentioned 7 documents were marked for identification 8 as Exhibit Nos. M-l through M-37.) 9 10 11 12 JOHN L. MYERS, 13 having been first duly examined, cautioned and 14 sworn upon his oath to tell the truth, the 15 whole truth and nothing but the truth, then 16 testified as follows: 17 18 19 BY MR. LATHAM: 20 EXAMINATION 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q Would you state your full name, please. John L. Myers. And where do you live, Mr. Myers? In Kings City, California. How are you employed? I I iII I UCAREF00012122 ft 1A I am president of a corporation. 2Q And what is the name of the corporation? 3A KCAC, Incorporated. 4Q Is that part of Union Carbide group? 5A No. 6Q How long have you been president of KCAC, Inc.? 7A Since July 1st of 1935. 8Q And what was your job before that? 9A I was product and production manager. 10 Q For the same company? 0 11 A For Union Carbide. 12 Q Oh, for Union Carbide. Where? 13 A Kings CityCalifornia. 14 Q 15 A How long did you work for Union Carbide? Thirty-four years. 16 Q 17 A So sometime back in 1951, about? In '51, I started. 18 Q And in what capacity did you start? 19 A 20 Q I was an hourly employee. Did you start in California? i 9 21 A No, in Oakridge, Tennessee. 22 Q Can you just kind of briefly go through your 23 history with the company? 24 A 25 Q Yes. Starting in 1951 with your job then and how you lrI UCAREF00012123 1 2A 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 19 A 20 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Yes. From 1951 to 1966, I was with the Nuclear | Division of Union Carbide in Oakridge, Tennessee and Paducah, Kentucky from *66 to '67. I was called j a research engineer with the Union Carbide asbestos business in Niagara Falls, New York from 1970 to - no, from 1967 to 1970, I was technical superintendent of the asbestos operation in Kings City, California. ! And from 1970 to 1981, I was marketing manager for Union Carbide asbestos products. From 1981 until 1985, I was product and production manager for Union Carbide's asbestos mining and milling operation for Union Carbide in Kings City, California. What was your last position, product and what? Product and production manager. Okay. From 1967 to 1985, did you work in Kings City? No. From 1970 to 1981, I was marketing manager in j Niagara Falls. Niagara Falls. All right. Yes. And what kind of business is KCAC, Inc.? They operate an asbestos mining and milling operation. UGAREF00012124 1Q 2A 3Q 4 5A 6Q 7A 8Q 9A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 14 A IS 16 17 Q 18 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 23 24 25 Q 3 Is that the -- a spin-off of Union Carbide? NO. It is a completely separate mining and milling operation? The same mining and milling operation. Union Carbide sell that to KCAC -- Yes. -- in 1985? Yes. And does KCAC, Inc. still mine raw asbestos? Yes. And what do they -- who do they sell it to and for what? Oh, various customers in the United States and elsewhere for asphalt roofing, asbestos cement products, various applications. Is that primarily the same business that Union Carbide was in up until 1985? Yes. At least in Kings City? Yes. MR. SHIPLEY: Until when? MR. LATHAM:Until 1985. MR. SHIPLEY: All right. (By Mr. Latham) All right. And what is your UCAREF00012125 1 educational background? 2 I have a Bachelor of Science in chemical 3 engineering. 4Q When and where did you obtain that? 5A 1951, Purdue University. 6Q Did Union Carbide help you in some way to obtain 7 that degree? 8A No. 9Q You said 1981? 10 A 1951. 11 Q '51, I'm sorry. All right. Anything after that? 12 A Formal education? 13 Q Yes. 14 A No. 15 Q Is it fair to say that your first introduction to 16 asbestos as a product -- or a mined product -- a 17 manufactured product, came in 1966 when you were 18 moved to Niagara Falls? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Had Union Carbide been in the asbestos mining 21 business before that date? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Do you know how long they had been in it? 24 A Yes. 25 Q How long? UCAREF00012126 * 1A Three years. 2Q Okay. So since some time around 1963? 3A Yes. 4Q Did that come about either through the purchase of 5 the -- or development of the mines in California? 6A What was the question again? 7Q Okay. Did their entry into the asbestos mining 8 business start with their mines in California? 9A Yes. 10 Q 11 Did they acquire those mines as operational mines or did they develop them themselves? 12 A Well, yes, whichever question. 13 Q Okay. To both questions, did they buy the mines? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Okay. Were they - 16 A I'm sorry. They did not buy an operating mine. 17 Q 18 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 Q 23 24 25 All right. They bought the land and turned it into a mine? They didn't buy the land, no. The rights to mine the land? Yes. Where else does Union Carbide have -- or during - since 1963, where else have they had mines other than California? In Zambawai. UCAREF00012127 1a All right. And when did they acquire those mines? 2A I have no idea. 9 3Q After 1963? 4A I don't know. 5Q And then during the period of time that you are 9 6 aware of, which I am sure will include the time 7 that you have been there, in what countries has 9 8 Union Carbide sold raw asbestos? 9 United States, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Colombia, 10 Venezuela, Europe. I could name some countries, 11 but I wouldn't be -- it would be in Europe, in 12 general. 13 Q Like England? 9 14 A Yes, England, France, Germany, Spain, Portugal, 15 in Japan and Taiwan, Korea. 16 Have they sold products to -- and I am sure there 17 are others, other countries than you have 18 mentioned - 19 A Yes. 20 Q 21 22 23 A 24 Q 25 Have they sold raw asbestos products worldwide to most of the countries you mentioned or all of them since 1966? Yes, to the best of my knowledge. Since 1966, have they -- and if your memory goes back from 1963 from the knowledge you acquired -- UCAREF00012128 1 did they sell asbestos for otherproducts than i 2 3A 4Q 5 asphalt roofing and cement? j Yes. Can you give us a representative sample of the types of product that they knew were being -- that they j t j II I 6 were selling asbestos to be used in? j j7 Vinyl asbestos floor tile, rubber tile -- rubber 8 flooring products, ceiling -- accoustical ceiling j ! 9 tile, tape joint compounds, polyester resin, 10 phenolic resin -- let's see. That's all that 11 generally come to mind. j 12 Q All right. Any insulation products? j 13 A 14 Q No. As far as you know - | t 15 A Let me say no, other than sound deadener products, 16 but not in any heat or cold frost type insulation. ! j 17 Insofar as the sales in the United States were 18 concerned, do you know if any of the products from i 19 Zambawai was ever sold in the United States? 20 A Not to my knowledge. 21 Q And Z guess it was called Rhodesia back in those 22 days ? 23 A Yes. 24 Q 25 So to follow up, is it fair to say that any companies that purchased raw asbestos for UCAREF00012129 1 2 3 4A 5Q 6 7 8A 9Q 10 11 12 A 13 Q 14 15 A 16 17 Q 18 A 19 20 Q 21 A 22 Q 23 24 25 13 incorporation into whatever products they manufactured that were located in the United States ' bought from the California mines? Yes. I I l | ! j Was it always shipped from California or were there various other shipping points that Union j I Carbide used? Yes -- yes. Okay. Were there other shipping points that Union Carbide used besides California in the sale of that raw asbestos? l Yes. And what were some of the shipping points that they ', used? You mean from -- we would ship to a warehouse and I j i I then ship out of a warehouse. Out of a Union Carbide warehouse, right? I don't know,if there were any other Union Carbide warehouses, perhaps. j Did they have a warehouse of some sort in Dallas? I don't remember any. Now, in response to the notice to take this deposition, the notice was sent to Union Carbide for them to select a person who was knowledgeable about the various items of information we wanted, and also UCAREF00012130 14 contained a list of documents to be produced. And you have brought numerous documents today, haven't you? A I haven 11, no. Q All right. MR. SHIPLEY: Actually, he didn't bring them. Union Carbide sent them to me and I brought them. MR. LATHAM: All right. Thank you. Q (By Mr. Latham) Have you had a chance to look at the documents that were produced? A Only as they were in the box. Q Okay. Just for the sake of getting everything organized, we have listed or grouped numerous pages of documents under the title M-l, which is the first initial of your last name, and the number one, indicating it is the first one, and what we have intended to do is to place in here all of the, I guess, invoices or documents of sale of asbestos products to the defendants in the case in Quanah, which are certainly corporation, and Georgia-Pacific, and I don't know if you have in here Bestwall or Best Drywall Company, but have I described in M-l correctly, it is invoices to either Certain-Teed Corporation or Georgia-Pacific or Best Drywall UCAREF00012131 1 2A 3Q 4A 5Q 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 20 21 22 23 24 A 25 Company. In Quanah or -Yes. Because these are Amber, Pennsylvania. Yes, because I think they are nationwide. MR. SHIPLEY: Off the record just a minute. I i j j (Whereupon, an off-the-record discussion was held.) MR. LATHAM: Let's go back on the record. They appear to be invoices, as Mr. Shipley said, for Georgia-Pacific and Certain-Teed to all t ! i locations in the United States. All right. Or to various locations in the United States. All right. I know you haven't looked at every single invoice, but is it fair to say that the invoices will contain such information as the date the materials are ordered, the dates it was shipped or received, the location from which it was shipped and the location to which it was shipped? Yes. MR. LATHAM: George, do you know whether UCAREF00012132  9 9 9 9 9 * 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8Q 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Q 22 23 24 25 A these are in some sort of chronological -------; order? MR. SHIPLEY: No , I don't. 1 MR. LATHAM: All right. MR. SHIPLEY: I do know the ones to the : i Quanah plant are interspersed. They are not geographical. I know that. (By Mr. Latham) In just glancing through these. it appears that the earliest date of shipment was in 1964, and the last date of shipment to any of the parties we have mentioned before was in June of 1979. MR. SHIPLEY: You are not suggesting that it was shipped to Quanah, though, are i ! , j you? MR. LATHAM: No, no. MR. SHIPLEY: Which I don't think is right. MR. LATHAM: It shouldn't be right. j i { ! i MR. SHIPLEY: All right. (By Mr. Latham) These invoices cover from -- if I look at the bottom one and the top one, it appears they cover a period of time from April of 1964 through June of 1979. Yes, I believe so. UCAREF00012133 1Q 2 3 4 5A 6Q 7 8 9A 10 Q 11 12 A 13 Q 14 15 A 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Q 23 24 A 25 Q All right. And it also appears that in 1964, that the company that was making the shipments was called Union Carbide Nuclear Company, a Division of Union Carbide Corporation. Yes. And then later, the later ones in late 1970, indicated that the company was Union Carbide Corporation, Metals Division. Yes. Is that how you got involved in the first place, because you were with the Nuclear Company? No. How did you happen to get involved in asbestos sales from the Nuclear Division? The person for whom I was working in the Nuclear Division -- it wasn't Nuclear Company, the Nuclear Division in Paducah, Kentucky. I don't know how he got involved, but he got involved with the asbestos business and he requested that I be released from the Nuclear Division to work with him in the asbestos operation. Were you involved in some sort of chemical engineering in the -- at the Nuclear Division? Not academic chemical engineering. What was -- I believe you said your job a second ago UCAREF00012134 ________________________________ ________________________ 13 1 was -- well, I don't believe you said what it was. 2 In 1966 when you switched, what was your job 3 description with the Nuclear Division? 4A 5Q 6A 7 Before I switched? Yes, before you switched. I forget the title, but I was managing a uranium decontamination operation, or I should say a I ! * 8 department. 9Q Was this for Union Carbide's own employees? 10 A Not employees -- when -- did you mean decontamina 11 tion? 12 Q Yes. 13 A No. This was equipment decontamination. 9 ii 14 Q Had that been your experience for several years 15 with the Nuclear Division? 9 16 A Yes. 17 Q When you became a research engineer for the asbestos 18 side of the business, did you go there because of 9 19 your decontamination experience? 20 A No. 9 21 Q Had you ever had any experience with -- or training 22 and knowledge of asbestos prior to your switching 23 over to the asbestos department? 9 24 A No. 25 Q Did they ever mention it to Purdue when you were at UCAREF00012135 1 2A 3Q 4 5 6A 7Q 8 9A 10 11 Q 12 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 23 24 A 25 q school there? Not that I recall. Did you receive any training from Union Carbide i in the properties of asbestos when you became a research engineer? Not that I remember. What kind of research did you do as a research engineer? t Working on new applications or different applications for asbestos fibers. And then later you became, I believe -- that was '66 through '67 you were involved in that? I didn't last very long. That was all in Niagara Falls? Yes. At that time, did you do any research into the hazards of asbestos? i t No. Were you aware of any of the hazards of asbestos? Not that I recall. Had anyone at Union Carbide mentioned to you or talked to you about any of the medical literature that was available at that time? Not that I remember. Had you ever heard of Dr. Selikoff? UCAREF00012136 ft. ~ " - " 1" i 1A Yes. t I 2Q How many research engineers were involved in j tft 3 whatever research you were doing in Niagara Falls ! 4 during '66 and '67? 5 I don't think they would all be enclosed as research ft 6 engineers, but there were four or five people 0 7 working on different applications. I ft 8Q Were any of them working on discovering the hazards 9 of or how to avoid the hazards of asbestos at that 10 time, as far as you are aware? ft 11 A Not to my knowledge. 12 Q Was that work you were doing preliminary to opening 13 the mines in Kings City, California? ft 14 A No. i i 15 Q Were the minesalreadyopened there bythat time? j ft 16 A Yes. i j 17 Q 18 And what -- during your research, what form was the asbestos thatyou worked with while youwere there i j ft 19 in Niagara Falls? 20 A It was raw asbestos fiber. ft 21 Q And in what quantities were you working? 22 A Laboratory quantities. 23 Q Okay -- | ft 24 A Grams, pounds. 25 Q Were you actually working with the raw product with UCAREF00012137 1 2A 3Q 4A 5Q 6 7A 8 9Q 10 11 A 12 Q 13 14 15 A 16 17 Q 18 19 A 20 Q 21 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q ______________________________ ______________________________ 21 your hands and - Yes. -- on a daily basis? Yes . And at that time, you weren't aware of any hazards involved in the use or - Nothing other than a dust, any dust hazards or dusty condition. But just from the standpoint it was a dusty condition? Yes. When was the first time that you were aware that there was any hazard of lung disease or cancer from asbestos? I can't recall a date. I would probably say in the early '70s. In 1967 when you went to Kings City, was there any discussion of the hazards of asbestos? Again, from a standpoint of being a dusty material. Nothing about its propensity to cause lung disease or cancer? I don't remember anything in particular. Anything in general that you remember about it then? No. And from '67 through '70, what was your job with -- UCAREF00012138 r 1A 2Q 3A 4 5 6 7 8 9Q 10 A 11 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 16 17 18 A 19 Q 20 21 A 22 Q 23 A 24 Q 25 A _____________________________________________________ ____________________22 I was technical superintendent. What did that mean? What did you do? The primary purpose that I went out there was to start up a facility for making treated asbestos product for use in polyester resins. I failed to respond earlier that while I was the research engineer, we did have a pilot plant for producing this product. All right. What was - In Niagara Falls, and therefore, I was sent to the plant to start up the production. Kind of an experimental plant in Niagara Falls? A pilot plant. All right. As part of your job then from *67 to '70, were you in charge of developing and working out the kinks or whatever in the plant that was going to produce this treated asbestos product? Yes. It was not a separate plant. They were just going to make that application in the existing plant? Of the product, yes. Did that involve working with raw asbestos? Yes. I mean, you, personally? Yes. UCAREF00012139 1Q 2A 3Q 4A 5Q 6 7A 8Q 9 10 11 12 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 17 18 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 24 25 And other employees of Union Carbide? Yes . On a daily basis? Yes . And that continued on the whole time that you were technical superintendent from '67 to '70? Right, yes. As far as you know while you were technical superintendent, did anyone at Union Carbide make you aware of any of -- of any hazards of any type of asbestos, as far as its capacity to cause lung disease and/or cancer? I can't remember anything specific. Do you remember anything general? Mainly, that it was to be controlled like any other dust. Any dust is harmful to your lungs, and we were operating on keeping under certain values from the asbestos fibers. Do you know where they obtained the threshholds? Prior to OSHA promulgation of asbestos rules, ACGIH. What does ACGIH stand for? Association -- American Conference of Government Industrial Hygienists, i think. Something close to that. At that time, were they using any other product or UCAREF00012140 L 24 1 raining any other product in California that had 2 some sort of threshhold limit like that, besides 3 asbestos? 4A You mean Union Carbide? 5Q Yes. 6A Not to my knowledge. 7Q All right. And what kind of efforts did Union 8 Carbide use to control the dust between 1067 and 1970 9 when you were the technical superintendent? 10 I can't really recall, other than the fact that 11 what we have now is ventilation equipment, vacuum 12 13 14 Q 15 A negative pressure ventilation systems around certain operations, especially packaging. And they had those back in 1967 to '70? To the best of my knowledge, yes. i i s 16 Q 17 Now, what did you mean about "around packaging"? Describe for me a little bit in less engineering 18 terms, what type of equipment you were using around 19 packaging. 20 They were called air-flow packers. The asbestos 21 fiber is forced into a bag by air pressure. And 22 any operation like that, the type of equipment in 23 the operation would cause more dust in other parts 24 of the plant. 25 What did they do to alleviate that? UCAREF00012141 1A 2 3Q 4 5A 6 7 8 9Q 10 n 12 13 A 14 15 16 17 Q 18 19 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q 4 25 Well, the vacuum or negative pressure ventilation systems -- Can you describe what that means, or how did that work? In household terms, if you stuck a big vacuum cleaner up around the operation to remove the fibers from the air, from the breathing zone of the packaging operators. So like between the packaging operators and the asbestos product would be a vacuum situation so that before the fibers could reach him, they would be sucked out of the space between him and the -- I can't remember whether it was that -- if that would fit the description, but it would be generally that kind of -- that would be the purpose of the system. \ And did you do tests back then on your employees that were in the packaging to determine what level of dust - Yes. -- they were getting? Yes. And how did you do those kinds of tests? By the impinger method, sample collection. All right. Can you describe that for me a little UCAREF00012142 1 bit, how it worked? | 2 I really can't. That was done by an industrial J ._ i 3 hygienist, and I would have to read the literature ] 4 to find out what it was. i j 5Q Do you recall if they strapped the collector on the I j i 6 worker, or just placed it between him and the jf 7 product or what? j I 8A I believe they did both. ; i 9Q Did you use the same type of equipment in the area 10 that you were working in where you and other 11 employees were working with raw asbestos in creating 12 the treated product? I | 13 No, that was in 1968, and I believe they had gone to | 14 the faith contrast, the current method for 15 sampling and analyzing asbestos fibers. 16 Q What methods were they using to protect the 17 employees in the treated asbestos product section? 18 A 19 Employees were -- respirators were made available to employees. They were required in certain areas i 20 based on the dust levels. 21 Q All right. If the dust levels were high enough, 22 the employees could choose not to use a respirator? 23 A Yes. We had a very effective training and 24 education program so that -- we have always 25 experienced a very high rate of usage of UCAREF00012143 1 2Q 3 4A 5Q 6A 7 8 9Q 10 11 A 12 Q 13 14 15 A 16 Q 17 18 A 19 Q 20 21 22 A 23 Q 24 25 A =-- = 27 I :------------------ ------------- f respirators. And this is in the same period of time, from '67 to '70, somewhere in there? | t ! j Yes. All right. Probably moretraining andeducation in the '70s because of the newer information that was coming out on the hazards of asbestos. i i I i And then in '70, you switched over to the marketing side of the business? Yes. And I guess that meant that you sought out customers and helped themacquire whatevershipment they wanted? I managed the department, yes. 1 i j i Does that mean that you had direct contact with some of your customers? Yes. During this period of time from 1967 through, I guess, '81, while you were still in the marketing department? 1970 until 1981. Yes, but in '67, you started off as a technical superintendent? At Kings City. UCAREF00012144 1Q 2 3A 4Q 5 6A 7Q 8A 9Q 10 A 11 12 Q 13 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 Q 23 A 24 25 Q All right. Now, i want to follow that through 1981. ` All right. Was Union Carbide shipping raw asbestos to various points in the United States to other manufacturers? Yes. And how were they shipping it? In what form? In fibrous form and in pellets. And in what types of containers? In paper bags and plastic bags and bulk hopper cars, railroad hopper cars. By bulk hopper cars, you mean the raw product was placed unpackaged into a hopper car? Yes. Covered or uncovered? Covered. Did it start with paper bags and then graduate to plastic bags? Yes. For how long did they use paper bags? From 1963 to 1985. And when did they start using plastic bags? I would say mid to late '70s. I don't have a date for sure. And what was the distinction between what product UCAREF00012145 29 you would send in paper bags and what product vou \ would send in plastic bags? A Paper bags were used for the open fiber product, fibrous product, and plastic bags were -- well, I I ! i 1 paper were used for both, but some customers wanted pellets in the plastic bags. Q All.right. And so the plastic bags were only used for the pellets? A Yes. Q But just -- but the raw asbestos that was still I ; ii | | i I I in its granular form or whatever it is, the dust form -- A Fibrous form. Q -- fibrous form was always shipped in the paper j 1 i I bags ? A In paper bags. Q Was it ever shipped, as far as you know, in gunny sack type materials? A No. Q Now you say sometimein the'70s you became aware, specifically aware of the fact that asbestos could cause lung disease and/or cancer? A Yes. Q And can you recallhow you were first made aware of that? UCAREF00012146 * 1 2 3 4 5A 6Q 7 8A 9Q 10 11 12 A 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 18 19 20 21 22 A 23 Q 24 25 30 'Jo, I can't recall specifics. I am sure a lot of it was just in general published literature. And by that you mean published elsewhere besides by Union Carbide? Yes. And you mean by that, trade magazines and such, or do you mean medical articles or what? Both. All right. How come you began to be aware of medical articles about the dangers of asbestos in the late '70s as opposed to before that? I said in the '70s. In the '70s. Not just late. All right, in the '70s. I obviously became more aware of it starting in 1971 when OSHA was beginning to develop asbestos rules. All right, and so you were informed about their asbestos rules either by OSHA or by someone else in the company? Yes. All right. And you were aware of it at that time that there was some specific hazards involved in asbestos exposure? UCAREF00012147 -------------------- ------- --------------------------------- j 1A Yes, as far as I remember. 2Q So about in 1971? | i j 3A Yes. 4Q 5 6A 7Q All right. aware of? And what specific hazards were you first ! t f J I can't remember. j jYou don't remember whether it wasasbestos or cancer 8 or -- ' 9A I would assume like everyone else's knowledge, it 10 was first asbestosis and then lung cancer. 11 Q During the time that youwere working for the - 12 in the asbestos side of the business at Union 13 Carbide, did you belong to or attend any industry j i 14 meetings, association meetings, that were involved 15 in the asbestos industry? 16 A Yes. 17 Q All right. And what were some of the groups that 18 you belonged to? 19 A The Asbestos Information Association of North 20 America. I didn't belong -- did you say "belong 21 to"? ' 22 Q Yes. 23 A 24 25 Q I didn't belong to it, personally. It was a company membership. That is what I mean, an editorial you. j UCAREF00012148 2Q 3A 4Q 5 6 7A 8Q 9A 10 Q 11 12 13 A 14 Q 15 16 A 17 Q 18 19 20 A 21 Q 22 23 A 24 Q 25 All right- The Asbestos Information - Asbestos Information Association of North America. All right. Any other companies that you are aware of that Union Carbide belonged to that involved the asbestos industry? You mean any other association? Yes, any other associations. No. Well -- no -- not -- no. There was an association back in those days called what, the Industrial Hygiene Association. Are you familiar with that? Industrial Hygiene Foundation. Do you know if Union Carbide was involved in that in any way? I think they were. When was the first time that you were aware that they may be involved with the Industrial Hygiene Foundation? Probably in the '80s, early '80s. All right. Did you ever attend a meeting of the Asbestos Information Association of North America? Yes. And when was the first meeting you attended of that group? UCAREF00012149 ^_______________ 33 1A 2 3Q 4 5 6 7 8 9A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 14 IS 16 17 A 18 19 20 21 A 22 Q 23 24 A 25 Q I can't recall. It would probably be the late '70s, '79, '73. In the late '60s, mid to late '60s, did you ever attend any informational institute, receive any papers from any informational institute or any industry literature that indicated that there was some hazards with the use of asbestos as related to lung disease and cancer? Not that I can recall specifically. Neither from the industry nor from Union Carbide? Not that I recall. Who at your plant -- and I am talking about the Kings City plant -- would have received information from Georgia-Pacific concerning the use and hazards of asbestos as soon as they begin to put that information out? Not anyone that I know of. MR. SHIPLEY: From Georgia-Pacific? MR. LATHAM: I'm sorry, from Union Carbide. I'm sorry. I got mixed up. I assume it would be the plant manager. (By Mr. Latham) Who was it during that period of time? What period? The early -- the mid and late '60s. UCAREF00012150 1A 2Q 3A 4Q 5A 6 7Q 8A 9Q 10 A 11 Q 12 A 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 20 Q 21 A 22 Q 23 A 24 Q 25 A 34 John Riddle. And then after that, who took his place? Floyd Larrison. And when did he take over? I don't -- let me see, I would guess -- I am just estimating or guessing it would be 1971. All right. After Mr. Larrison, who? Earl Shortridge. And up -- when did he take over? Probably 1974 or 1975. Okay, and after him? William Deatley. All right, and when did he take over? Probably in 1978. All right, and after him? Myself. Where is Mr. Riddle today? I understand he is in the bay area of California, or San Francisco Bay area. Mr. Larrison? He is retired. I don't know where he is. All right. Mr. Shortridge? He is in Colorado. And Mr. Deatley? I think in Connecticut. | i I II I i I UCAREF00012151 1Q 2A 3Q 4A 5 6 7 8 9A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 18 Q 19 A 20 21 22 23 24 25 Are all of them retired? | No. All right. Which ones aren't retired? Which ones aren't retired? I don't think John Riddle is retired. Mr. Shortridge and Deatley are ! i j i J ( not retired. All right. Does Mr. Riddle work for Union Carbide still? ] i No. Do you know for whom he works? I think, again, Bechtel Corporation. And what about Mr. Shortridge; do you know for whom he works? He works for Umetco, a subsidiary of Union Carbide. All right. Mr. Deatley? He is still with Union -- the corporation. I don't know whether he is with a subsidiary or not. All right. They stopped communicating with me on July 1st of 1985. Is the company that you worked for a stock -- is it a corporation with stock? Well, I am not sure. It is privately owned. I think shares are owned by the owners -- or by the buyers of the business. UCAREF00012152 36 1 And the buyers of the business were not principals 2 in Union Carbide, as far as you know? 3 A. No. 4Q It was an arm's-length transaction for the sale? I | i 5A What do you mean by "arm's-length"? 6Q Well, somebody who wanted to buy the company came 7 in and with no relationship to Union Carbide, and I 8 they bargained the sale -- 9A Yes. 10 Q -- at arm's length? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And as plant manager, did you immediately become 13 14 A 15 Q president of the new company? Yes. Do you own stock in the new company? 1 1 | I i 16 A No. 17 Q Did Union Carbide have -- well, first of all, were 18 the mines in California part of a division of Union 19 Carbide or a wholly-owned subsidiary? What was the 20 structure of the mining operation? 21 A I believe it started off in the Nuclear Division. j ft 22 Q All right. 23 A And then changed to the Metals Division. 24 Q All right. 25 A And then changed to the Chemicals and Plastic UCAREF00012153 1 2Q 3 4 5 6A 7Q 8A 9Q 10 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 17 Q 18 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 Q 23 24 A 25 Q 37 Division, and then back to the Metals Division. Were any other divisions or subsidiaries of Union Carbide involved in either mining or production or sale of asbestos or asbestos products during the time that you were with the company? Other than those divisions I mentioned? Right. Not to my knowledge. Not that I remember. Was the Zimbawai mines owned by part of a different division or the same division? Different division. All right. I think -- yes. And what division were they a part of? Oh, I would only be guessing. Union Carbide Africa or South Africa. All right. Which would have been a subsidiary or - of Union Carbide? Yes. The parent company? Yes. Was there a subsidiary in Great Britain, the United Kingdom? Yes. Could you remember the name of it? Maybe Union UCAREF00012154 Carbide UK, something like that? I think Union Carbide Limited UK or something like that. . i j i j And do you know if Union Carbide UK Limited was involved in the receipt of or the sale of or the i ii j production of any asbestos products? They -- I think they were before I was involved, but I don't recall that I had any direct dealings after I became involved with the asbestos business. i I I Did the mines in California, as far as you know, ship asbestos, raw asbestos products to the United Kingdom? Yes. I stated that earlier. And that was prior to -- and when I say "United Kingdom," I mean Union Carbide United Kingdom. j j I can't say whether Union Carbide had a distributor in Great Britain or they used the subsidiary. i Did you ever attend a meeting with or correspond with anyone in the United Kingdom with Union Carbide concerning the sale or use of asbestos? I probably did. I can't recall anything specific. Did you ever hear of a fellow by the name of I. C. ; Sayers? Yes . Who was he? UCAREF00012155 ____________________________________________________ ____________________________ 39 1A 2Q 3 4 5A He was with Union Carbide UK. Were you ever told in 1966, 1967 or 1968, 1969, 1970, about any reports prepared by Mr. Sayers dealing with the hazards of asbestos products? Not that I recall. 6Q 7A 8Q 9A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 15 Q 16 17 18 A 19 Q 20 21 A 22 Q 23 24 25 A Have you heard about them since then? Yes. When was the first time you heard about them? Probably 1984, 1985. And how did you hear about them for the first time? During a litigation situation. Was it while you were testifying? Yes, I guess it was. In fact, it was later -- it was probably eighty -- '85 or '86. And was it the type of thing where someone presented it to you for the first time under litigation circumstances? Yes. And up to that point. Union Carbide had never told you about that? Not that I can remember. Did Union Carbide know that you were going to testify in that litigation situation in 1985 or '86 before you went to testify? Yes, I assume they did, yes. UCAREF00012156 1Q 2 3 4A 5Q 6 7 8A 9Q 10 11 A 12 Q 13 14 IS A 16 Q 17 18 19 A 20 Q 21 22 23 A 24 Q 25 40 Did they provide you materials to refresh your memory or documents about transactions that would help you before you went totestify? Not that I recall. And before you went to testify. Union Carbide did not mention to you Mr. Sayers' reports that were published in 1966 or '67, something like that? As I said before, I don't recall. How many times did you -- did you ever testify before 1935? No. In a case involving claims of asbestosis, mesothelioma, or some other asbestos-related disease? No. Was it the first time that you testified that you discovered about Dr. Sayers' report, or Mr. Sayers' report? Yes. . And was it Union Carbide'slawyer that showed it to you or was it the lawyer for one of the people that was injured? it was the plaintiffs' lawyer. So thefirst time you ever saw the results of Mr. Sayers' study was when a lawyer for someone who UCAREF00012157 was -- who it to you? had an asbestos-related diseaseshowed . You may be talking about something different than I will be answering to,. I am not familiar with any | t | J ! j study that I made. You are familiar with the reports that he wrote? j I with a report, yes. Well, is that the same report that says there is a growing feeling that the quoted "threshhold i j j ! limit value" is no longer tenable? I couldn't answer without you showing me the report. All right. Do you recall the language in the report that said something like, "On the basis of present evidence, we are not entitled, under any lI circumstances, to state that our material is not a health hazard. What is more, it is believed that a potential customer would use our material I dangerously and that he is unaware of the toxicity question. Then it must surely be our duty to caution him and point out means whereby he can hold the asbestos air flow concentration to a minimum." Do you recall that? l don't recall that, no. In any event, if that language was contained in a report, you never saw that or heard about it until UCAREF00012158 . * 1 2A 3Q 4A 5Q 6A 7Q 8 9 10 A 11 12 Q 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Q 21 22 23 A 24 Q 25 A 42 1935? That report? Yes. No. You never -Not that I recall. And whatever report that you were shown from Mr. Sayers was shown to you by a plaintiff's lawyer and not Union Carbide? To the best that I remember. I did not see it before that. Do you recall that Mr. Sayers' report -- MR. SHIPLEY: Why don't you show him the report? MR. LATHAM: I don't have a copy of the report. I am paraphrasing from it. MR. SHIPLEY: You are not quoting it? MR. LATHAM: I am quoting part of it. I don't have the whole report, just part of it. (By Mr. Latham) Do you recall that the report that you saw described a 1965 mesothelioma study done by Newhouse and Thompson in England? No. You don't recall that? No. UCAREF00012159 1Q 2 3 4A 5Q 6 7A 8 9 10 Q 11 12 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 18 19 20 21 A 22 Q 23 24 25 A When was the first time Union Carbide put any warnin labels on any of their sacks, paper sacks of containing asbestos? 1968. All right. And what did the warning labels say, as best you can recall? Something like it was very similar to the label that OSHA prescribed in '72. It was caution, something else, and "Do not breathe dust." If I were to tell you it was not until 1971 that they contained warnings, would you disagree with that? Am I wrong about the date? I would disagree with you, yes. You specifically remember it was1968? Yes. All right. Were you aware that back in the '60s or so, in the late '60s, that potential customers had written letters questioning the use of asbestos and wondering about its safety to Union Carbide? Had you ever been told that? I don't remember that Iknew that, no. Do you remember ever seeing any letter from any potential customer questioning the safety of the product or its dangers as it involved lung disease? In any time frame? UCAREF00012160 It 1Q In any time frame. 44 2A I don't remember specific letters. i am sure the 3 questions were raised. 4Q All right. 5A Either by us or by the customer. 6Q Do you know if while you were at -- in California 7 with Union Carbide, whether or not they belonged I 8 to the National Safety Council? 9A If the corporation belonged? 10 Q Yes. I 11 A I assume they did. I don't have any specific 12 knowledge that they did. 13 Q Do you know if prior to the purchase of the nines in 14 California, Union Carbide had done any studies 15 on the safety of asbestos or its harmfulness? I 16 A Not that I am aware of. 17 Q Have you ever heard of Mr. Peale? 18 A Yes. I 19 Q who is he? 20 A I am not sure whether he is an industrial 21 hygienist or was involved with environmental safety. 22 Q For whom? 23 A For Union Carbide. * 24 Q Were you ever made aware that he had done a study 25 in 1962 on exposure to insulation products UCAREF00012161 __________________________ ________________________________________________ 45 1 1 containing asbestos? 2A Yes. 3Q And when were you aware of that? 4A Probably 1980, I don't know, late '70s or '80s. 5Q And how were you made aware of that? 6A I can't remember for sure. It came up in one of 7 the -- again, one of the litigation situations. 8Q Again, was it called to your attention the first 9 time by a plaintiff's lawyer? 10 A No. 11 Q Was it called to your attention the first time by 12 Union Carbide? 13 A No, it wasn't called to my attention. I just 14 became aware of it. 15 Q During the entire time you were in California from 16 1966 through 1980, were you made aware by Union 17 Carbide of that study by Mr. - 18 A 1967 is when I went there. 19 Q 1967? 20 A Yes. No, not that I recall. 21 Q 22 23 A 24 Q 25 You started in the asbestos business with Union Carbide in 1967? In 1966 in Niagara Falls. All right. From 1966 until 1979 or '80 when you first heard about that report, did they ever mention UCAREF00012162 1 2A 3 4Q 5A 6Q 7A 8 9Q 10 11 A 12 Q 13 14 15 16 A 17 Q 18 19 20 21 A 22 Q 23 24 25 46 to you the Peale study? . Not that I recall. We had nothing to do with I i j insulation products. Have you ever heard about the 7th Saranac Symposium? ! J No. Which was conducted - Let me say I heard about it on a prior deposition, but I still don't know what it is. Did anyone with Union Carbide ever mention that symposium to. you? Not that I recall. Did anyone with Union Carbide ever tell you that they had ever attended the meeting for asbestos and its relationship to cancer werediscussed in the 1950's? You will have to repeat that. I lost track. Did anyone with Union Carbide ever tell you that I iii | I i j they had attended a conference that discussed the relationship between asbestos and cancer in the 1950s? No. As far as you knew, up until the late '70s, or I guess maybe the -- whenever -- again, when was the first time that you were aware that there was some I relationship between asbestos and cancer? UCAREF00012163 1A 2 3Q 4A 5 6Q 7 8A 9 10 11 12 Q 13 14 15 A 16 Q 17 18 A 19 Q 20 21 A 22 Q 23 A 24 25 Q ______________________________________ ________________________ _________ 47 I can't specifically say cancer, but if you want to talk about -Lung disease? If you want to talk about diseases, probably the early '70s. What about cancers? Do you recall when that would have been, after that? As I said, the same response as earlier. Like everyone else has found out, I think first, the concern was asbestosis and then lung cancer associated with chrysotile asbestos. What about mesothelioma? When was the first time you were ever aware of any association between asbestos and mesothelioma or lung cancer? I would guess in the middle '70s. Did you get that information from UnionCarbide or from somewhere else? Probably both. When were you first aware of Dr. Selikoff's 1964 study? I can't recall a date. I would say early '70s. And how were you informed about that? I can only assume that the report was routed to me for reading. And what do you recall about Dr. Selikoff's report? UCAREF00012164 1A 2Q 3A 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 A 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 22 23 24 25 "" This is the one on insulation workers? 43 ------ 7 * Uh-huh, yes. ! The main thing I recall is that his feeling at that i time and I think still is, in nonsmoking asbestos j workers, there was little incident -- little increased incidents of disease. You are talking about nonsmoking insulation workers, i j i j or nonsmoking raw asbestos workers? MR. SHIPLEY: We were talking about insulation workers. That's the one you asked him about. Nonworking -- nonsmoking asbestos workers. Are you talking about - Probably some of those, too. Are you talking about insulation workers or people j working with raw asbestos? Insulation workers. All right. That is what his report was about, as I recall it. All right. And even though his report was issued in 1964, you are not aware of it until the '70s? MR. SHIPLEY: I will object. It assumes facts not in evidence. It states things that ! are contrary to facts. (By Mr. Latham) Whenever his report was issued, you UCAREF00012165 1 2A 3Q 4A 5Q 6 7 8A 9Q 10 11 12 A 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 A 20 Q 21 22 A 23 Q 24 25 A _________________________________ ________________________________________ 4 0 were not aware of it until the '70s? That is as I remember, the early - All right. -- the early '70s. Was that the first time that you were aware that there was any relationship between asbestos and lung disease, or had you been aware of it before that? I can 11 recall. Above the plant manager, who was the next person in the line of authority; not the name of the person, but the position. 1 don't recall. I think it would probably have been a vice-president, most of the time, a division vice-president. And would it have been like the Metals and -- Mining and Metals Division, vice-president, that would have been the next person up the line, as far as you know? When it was under that division, yes. And when it was under the Nuclear Company, it would have been that vice-president? I don't know. And where would that vice-president have been located? In New York City. UCAREF00012166 1 ________________________________ _________________________________________ 3 0 1Q 2A In the home office of Union Carbide -- Or Danbury, Connecticut. i! II 3Q And I take it from that that he would probably be 4 responsible for more than just the one set of mines ItI 5 out in California, or the one plant out in 6 California? 7A 8Q Yes. From time to time, did plants in California get \ 9 correspondence from New York advising them of various 10 methods of operation, how to handle the product, 11 how to sell it, that sort of thing? 12 A Again, I can assume in the early days you are 13 talking about why? 14 Q Yes. 15 A I would assume that that is the way it would go. 16 Q There was information back and forth between - 17 A Yes. 18 Q Who was the head safety person for Union Carbide, 19 and not his name, but his position? 20 A I don't recall. I don't know it. 21 Q Who was the head safety person in California? 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 At the plant? Yes. I don't know -- well, we had a safety and health - called him safety engineer, I think, or safety and UCAREF00012167 4 4 1 2Q 3A 4Q 5 6A 7Q 8 9A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 18 19 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 24 25 and health engineer. All right. And what did he answer to? To the plant manager. Did the company -- the home office send out safety information from time to time? Yes. All during the period of time that you were in California? To the best of my knowledge, yes. And also while you were in Niagara - Yes. -- did they require safety meetings - Yes. -- of the people employed at various plants? Yes. Did they require people who were involved with the plants in the executive positions, such as plant manager, to attend safety meetings held by the company? Yes. And how often were those held and where? It has usually been a practice to have a formal safety meeting once a month with each crew or group of employees. Now let me -- UCAREF00012168 1A 2 3Q 4 5A 6Q 7 8 9 10 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 22 Q 23 A 24 25 Q ____________________________ ____________________________________________ 52 In addition to that, there would be tailgate safety sessions, and the regular things done by industry. Were the managers ever called together for safety meetings? What managers? Well, for instance, the plant manager in California, would he ever be called to the home office or some other place where managers of various divisions could meet and various plants could meet and discuss safety concerns? Yes. How often were those types of meetings held? Normally, once a quarter. So about every three months? Yes. And did they usually occur in one place or all around the country? Mostly rotation. And who would be in charge of those meetings? The person who was responsible for the -- to whom the plant managers reported. Like the vice-president of that division? If he was a vice-president, yes. He had that title. Was there some home office safety department that UCAREF00012169 would assist in either getting out the information for the meetings, or in making whatever presentations were - A There was a division safety department that would handle that. iQ And would that be located also in New York City or -i A No, he was in Grand Junction, Colorado. j Q jAnd who would attend these meetings besides the plant managers? A Well, usually some other officers -- or not officers, necessarily, but -the division -- oh, yes, the division president would often be there, staff people from the division -- from headquarters division. Q So it would be people from NewYork there? A Yes. ' Q From what we call the home office,I guess? A Yes. i ! i i ! j I I ! I 1 Q Would people below plant manager go, too? A Usually the -- well, let me see. No, I would say it is usually the plant manager. Maybe in his absence someone would go for him, or if there was a specific safety topic, the safety people would go from each location. Q Is it fair to say based on that, that the only UCAREF00012170 _____________________________________ 5 4 1 2 3A 4Q 5A 6Q 7 8A 9Q 10 11 A 12 13 Q 14 15 16 A 17 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 23 <2 24 25 A meetings such as that that you attended was after you became a plant manager? No. I attended them as the marketing manager. All right. Or at least some of them. Would they hand out information for you to bring back home with you? Sometimes. Things to pass out to the workers and pass out to various people at the plant? I think each plant manager would use his own judgment on what was passed on. When was the first time that Union Carbide put a warning on their packages of asbestos that warned of lung disease? I think I stated earlier that a warning was put on in 1968. But did that warn of lung disease? No. What did it warn of? Just -- it warneda person not to breathe the asbestos dust. All right. When was the first warning put on that warned of lung disease? There wasn't any that I know of. UCAREF00012171  9 -- ...................... - 55 j 1Q 2A 3Q 4 5A 6 7Q 8A 9 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 19 20 Q 21 22 23 A 24 Q 25 Up through 1985? No. All right. Were there ever any warnings put on any of the packages that warned of death? The OSHA prescribed warning was used from 1972 to 1985. All right. And there was no mention of death in the Union Carbide warning used from '68 until '72. And none in the OSHA -- No. -- warning? NO. j And never any mention of lung disease? No. All right. Other than you would associate it with -- that you are not supposed to breathe it,that it would cause lung damage. Basically, all of the warnings ever did was to tell people to be careful not to -- in breathing it or not to breathe it? Not to breathe it. Okay. What about your company now? Do you put warnings on your asbestos products? UCAREF00012172 1A 2Q 3A 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 A 11 Q 12 A 13 Q 14 15 A 16 Q 17 18 19 20 A 21 Q 22 23 A 24 Q 25 56 We use the OSHA prescribed warning. Does it mention lung disease or death? I think it does. I can't really recall. I think it mentioned -- I can't recall how it reads, exactly. Is it true of what you know about Union Carbide that all they ever did, as far as warnings on their products, was what was required by the government? On the products themselves? Whatever product they sold. From 1972, they put on what was required by OSHA. I don't mean just relating to asbestos. Was it true on all other products, too? I wouldn't have any knowledge of that. Is it true that as far as the establishment of government standards, that Union Carbide, while you were there, opposed every government standard that was ever proposed? MO. Opposed any government standard that was ever produced? No. Did they oppose any government standard that you are aware of? I i i Iii i i ii i i ii UCAREF00012173 1A 2Q 3 4A 5Q 6 7A 8Q 9 10 A 11 12 13 14 Q 15 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 20 Q 21 22 A 23 Q 24 25 _________ _______________ ________ ______________________________ 5 7 I don't know what you mean by "opposed." In 1977, did they oppose the OSHA standards that were being proposed at that time? i j i j In what manner do you mean by being opposed? : Be against them, try to recommend against publishing them. J No. They never asked you to be against any proposed OSHA regulations or anything? I think you will have to -- we testified to various hearings in OSHA. It is not that we were opposed to regulations. We always tried to get regulations issued that were - Did you testify in an OSHA regulations hearing in 1977 or thereabouts? Not that I recall. All right. If you have got something there that says differently, but I don't recall. Do you know who the National Association of Defense Council is? I know there is a group, yes. And in 1977, they petitioned the Consumer Products Safety Commission to ban asbestos in joint compounds and other types of products? UCAREF00012174 1A 2 3Q 4A 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Q 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A 25 I don't think it was "joint compound." That wasn't the wording on it. Drywall, spackling and joint compounds. I can't remember that was the exact wording, but, yes . MR. SHIPLEY: Why don't you show him what you are reading. It might save some time. MR. LATHAM: encyclopedia. I am reading from kind of an ! MR. SHIPLEY: What is it? MR. LATHAM: It is the "Asbestos and Legal Aspect" by Dr. Castleman. (By Mr. Latham) On August 15, 1975, Dr. Arthur Rowe and co-workers at the Mount Sinai School of Medicine published a report in the science, on the high levels of airborne asbestos exposure Iiii j I j i entailed by mixing, sanding and sweeping up after applying drywall spackling and joint compounds. The Natural Resources Defense Council then I i | petitioned the Consumer Products Safety Commission to ban asbestos in such products. Throughout 1977, Union Carbide led the opposition to the ban. Is that true, as far as you know? We presented our own testimony on air sampling results. UCAREF00012175 MR. SHIPLEY: And Dr. Castlenan was wrong j again. j (By Mr. Latham) Did Union Carbide, through you, or did you participate in the filing of any objections I with the Consumer Products Safety Commission? We submitted testimony, if that is the same thing. All right. it? Does that mean in writing, you submitted j i Yes, and I think orally. And was the testimony in favor of or opposed to the ban? It was opposed to the ban. Did you participate in preparing the testimony? I probably participated to some extent, yes. j I Probably more editorially. I didn't write the testimony. All right. But you participated -- they gave you -I was aware of the testimony. j I J i J | Did they give you a draft copy and ask you for your comments or suggestions about it? Probably. And when they did that, did they advise you - Who do you mean by "they"? Union Carbide. Was it Union Carbide that gave you the copy of the testimony and asked you to -- or UCAREF00012176 1 2 3A 4 5Q 6A 7Q 8A 9Q 10 11 A 12 Q 13 14 A IS Q 16 A 17 18 Q 19 20 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q 60 the proposed testimony, and ask you to comment on it? Well, it was not Union Carbide. It was my department. All right. The marketing department. For Union Carbide? I was working for Union Carbide. It was Union Carbide's marketing department that wanted to file the testimony? It was the asbestos group, marketing department. All right. In preparing your testimony, did they mention or tell you about the Sayers' report? Not that I recall. All right. I don't recall the Sayers' report having anything to do with the spackling compound. Did they tell you about or -- or were you aware of the Selikoff report? MR. SHIPLEY: Which one? (By Mr. Latham) The 1964 Selikoff report. In 1977? ,, Yes. I am -- I assume I was, yes. Were you aware of the Saranac Symposium? i UCAREF00012177 1A 2Q 3 4A 5Q 6 7 8 9 10 11 A 12 13 Q 14 15 16 17 A 18 19 20 21 Q 22 23 24 25 I have already answered no. And they didn't make you aware of that. Union Carbide didn't? I have never been aware of it. Did Union Carbide make you aware of any other association reports or foundation reports or institutes in which they had sent members that discussed cancer, mesothelioma or lung disease in asbestos prior to you preparing your comments or testimony in 1977? I would assume that I had read several things about asbestos and health by that time. By that time, what had you read concerning asbestos and health, the best you can recall? And if you can't tell me specific things, give me classifications of things that you had read. Oh, I would say primarily on chrysotile asbestos, the difference between the chrysotile and the amphibole, the safe -- or the threshhold limit values that were considered safe at various times. Let me interrupt you right here and we will go on with the rest of that question, but where did you ever -- where did Union Carbide or you ever obtain your threshhold limits? From what sources? Did you develop them yourselves or did you -- UCAREF00012178 1A 2Q 3A 4Q 5 6 7A 8Q 9A 10 11 Q 12 A 13 Q 14 15 A 16 17 18 Q 19 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 I think I started earlier from the ACGIH -- j All right. j -- until the OSHA rules were promulgated. So whatever -- whatever was promulgated by these I i groups were the threshhold limits that you all discussed and used? That or lower, yes. All right. What else? j j j i Well, I would guess just various studies of various doctors and scientific personnel -- Do you remember - -- on general asbestos and health. Do you remember any of the doctors specifically, or , the studies, specifically? Dr. Selikoff, Langer, McDonald -- and my mind is a blank as far as other names, but the typical i l j asbestos scientists or doctors. Had you sought those out yourself or had the company provided them to you? 1 i Both. But never the Sayers' report? Not that Irecall. Okay. I could have read it. I could very easily have read it, but I don't recall that I did. UCAREF00012179 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8Q 9A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 14 15 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 21 22 23 24 25 During all of this time that you were out in California, who was the insurance carrier for Union Carbide's employees out there, as far as health insurance was concerned? Blue Cross, I think. I am not sure. I remember Blue Cross as one name. They probably changed J j ji j I ! i j back and forth depending on low bids. Who was the liability insurance carrier? j I I don't have any idea. Who was the workers' compensation? I have no idea. Was Metropolitan Life Insurance Company ever involved in any of the insurance that any of the i Union Carbide plants where you worked, as far as you j know, either life insurance or health insurance? I I think they had the dental insurance at one point. Okay. And they may have had other kinds, but I don't know. All right. Now you have provided - MR. SHIPLEY: Are you going to move into another area? MR. LATHAM: Yes. Do you want to take a break? MR. SHIPLEY: Yes. MR. LATHAM: All right. Let's take a UCAREF00012180 1 2 3 4 5Q 6 7 8 9 10 A 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 A 19 20 Q 21 22 23 24 25 Q break. (Short recess taken.) 64 ' | I | (By Mr. Latham) these exhibits. Mr. Myers, let's go through some of i Exhibit M-2appears to besome i interoffice correspondence,and canyou kind of look through that and basically tell us generally | j what that is? These are call reports by salesmen on - MR. SIIIPLEY: Let me ask you something. These weren't stapled together originally, were they? j MR. LATHAM: No. We stapled them together because they all appeared to be the same thing. i | MR. SHIPLEY: All right. These are reports of the salesmen's calls on Georgia-Pacific in Georgia. i (By Mr. Latham) And just generally, this just shows -- MR. SHIPLEY: Which one? Are you just talking in general? MR. LATHAM: Yes. (By Mr. Latham) They show a list of names up in the ___________________________ _________________ _______________________________L UCAREF00012181 1 2 3A 4Q 5A 6Q 7A 8 9Q 10 11 A 12 Q 13 14 A 15 Q 16 17 18 19 20 A 21 22 23 Q 24 25 65 right-hand corner. Is that all of the people that - to whom a copy was routed for this information? It is in the left-hand corner. It is in the left-hand corner. I'm sorry. I would have to look at it to see. {Handed back to the witness by counsel.) Yes. That would be the distribution of these call reports after they were typed. Kind of up in the right-hand corner is the name of the man who prepared the report; is that correct? Yes. All right. And it also contains the date of the report? Yes. All right. M-3 is an article at that tine entitled "Asbestos and Health," and from the Asbestos Information Association of North America. Is there any way that you can look at that and identify it as to date? No. The only way would be -- this association is no longer located in New York City, and we could tie it down somewhat by that. And was this produced today because at some point in time you either read or had access to that, or was it just something that was in the Union Carbide I UCAREF00012182 ________________________________________________________________________ 6 6 1 files, or do you know? 2A Repeat the question. 3 MR. SHIPLEY: It was produced because it 4 was called for by your request. 5 (By Mr. Latham) Had you ever read that article i I/ 6 or do you recall it? 7A Yes, I think so. t 8Q All right. rt-4 is a similar type of art icle by the 9 Asbestos Information Association, apparently 10 entitled "Asbestos and Health Questions and 11 Answers." 12 Is there anything on there that you can see 13 that identifies it as to date? 14 A No. Again, the association might have some - 15 there are some numbers at the bottom of the last 16 page which the association may have some record of - 17 that that indicates a date, but I don't see any 18 date. 19 Q 20 21 A 22 Q 23 24 25 All right. Do you recall ever having seen that particular article before? Yes. M-5 is a copy of another article entitled "Protecting the Asbestos Worker," also by the Asbestos Information Association of North America. Offhand, do you see any way -- anything that UCAREF00012183 1 2 3A 4Q 5A 6Q 7 8A 9Q 10 11 12 A 13 14 Q 15 A 16 17 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 22 23 24 25 ' " "................. ......... " 67 shows up on the article that would indicate its date? No. = Do you recall ever having seen thatarticle? Yes, uh-huh. Do you recall the period of time in which you saw it? No. I i Was there a particular period of time in which you were exposed to numerous articles about asbestos and whether it is hazardous or not? I would say starting in 1970 when I became marketing manager. All right. Part of my job was toinformcustomers of information like this. Did I answer the question - no, 1 didn't see a date on it. Yes, I think you answered All right. it. M-6 is anotherarticle or group of articles, and we did not staple these together, but I think it contains more than one thing. "Recommended Work Practices Molding and Fabrication of Asbestos-Containing Plastic Products." And it contains OSHA standards and other things. Have you ever seen those before UCAREF00012184 1 2A 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Q 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 today? Yes, I have seen the document, but I haven't read i t. MR. SHIPLEY: M-7 ought to be part of M-6. MR. LATHAM: That's right. MR. SHIPLEY: It came unstapled since I got it in the mail. i i j You can tell by the sequential number that it is part of M-6. MR. LATHAM: It is part of M-6? MR. SHIPLEY: Yes. (By Mr. Latham) All right. In the back of M-6 are | I j some schematic drawings, it looks like, having to j do with Page 776, has to do with typical vacuum system, 777, typical methods of dust disposal, and 779 is a materials list. 730 is a dust trap vacuum system, and 781 is an asbestos fiber bag opening station. Let me ask you to look at what is M-7, that is actually 781 of M-6. Does that have any -- or can you use that to explain to us or describe to us the type of system that you had at your California I plant for handling dust in the sacking of raw asbestos? UCAREF00012185 1A 2Q 3A 4Q 5A 6Q 7A 8 9 10 11 Q 12 A 13 14 15 16 17 a 18 19 20 Q 21 22 a 23 24 Q 25 A We don't have a bag opening station. All right. We have a bag filling station. All right. No, it doesn't look like that. What about any of these other drawings that we have? The typical vacuum system would be similar to what we would have to create a negative pressure on a pipe throughout the mill so that we could clean up spills like you would with a vacuum cleaner. As opposed to sweeping it up or something like that? Or scooping -- you could scoop it up wet with a shovel, but if it's dry, you would use a vacuum cleaner. MR. SHIPLEY: You are talking about what you would do? Well, we have one or two of these types of systems for plant clean-up. This is not what we would have in the bagging operation. And how long has Union Carbide had a system like that for a plant clean-up in their California plant? I don't know whether it was installed in -- one was installed in '63 or not. Was it -~ I know there was concern about dust generation or UCAREF00012186 1 2 3 4Q 5 6 7 8 9A 10 Q 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 A 18 19 20 21 22 Q 23 24 2S /U we wouldn't have had the air monitoring program, but I can't say -- I would assume there was one there from '63 on, but I don't know that there was. The equipment that you had, whether it contained that or not in 1963, I assume was put there because someone at Union Carbide felt that it was necessary to protect the workers from dust that was in the air? Yes. Which included the bacuura system that you talk about that relieved the dust from the face of the worker who was at the bagging position. This vacuum system for plant clean-up was all done to avoid dust because Union Carbide thought that was important and necessary for the protection of the workers? Yes. (Whereupon, an off-the-record discussion was held.) All right. M-3 is an article "What Asbestos Is, flow and Where It Is Used." And again, if you will look through it with me, I don't see any way to date that article, do you? UCAREF00012187 1A 2Q 3 4A Not with thesheets that are here. And had youat article? some point in tine seen this Yes. j l : ii j j 5Q It contains, among other things, a discussion of, 6 I guess, three different types of asbestos j 7 chrysotile? 8A You can pronounce it -- I usechrysotheal. 9Q Chrysotheal? I j i 10 A Crocidolite. 11 Q What is the number one? ! 12 A Amphibole. 13 Q Crocidolite -- 14 A Yes. 15 Q ' -- and anphibole? 16 A Amphibole. i ! j i j ! i ! 17 Q 18 All right. What kind of mine do you have in California? 19 A Chrysotheal. 20 Q 21 A And which kind of mine is in Zimbawai? Chrysotheal. I can't swear it was mined there. I You 22 asked if Union Carbide owned a mine there, but I 23 don't know if it was ever produced. 24 MR. SHIPLEY: Are you talking about 25 Zimbawai? UCAREF00012188 1 1 THE WITNESS : Yes. 2 (By Mr. Latham) Do you know for sure in !! t ; 3 California? i 4 No, I can't say for sure it was ever produced jlI i 5 anything. Carbide owned and maybe still does own a 6 chrysotheal mine in Zimbawai. 7 MR. SHIPLEY: All right. 1 j ji 8A But I don't know if it ever produced any fiber. 9Q (By Mr. Latham) 9 next, M-9 is an article entitled 10 "Asbestos and Health" from the Asbestos Information 11 Association of North America. 12 Correct me if I am wrong, but there doesn't appear to be any way to date the publication in that | 13 i l j 14 article. J 15 There is no date on it. They have moved to 16 Washington. I think that is probably an update 17 of the previous "Asbestos and Health" article. 18 MR. SHIPLEY: This might help. It looks 19 like there is something in here from 1972. 20 MR. LATHAM: So it had to be after '72. 21 MR. SHIPLEY: From the Young Conference. 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, it would be after '72. 23 MR. LATHAM: All right. l 24 MR. SHIPLEY: What number is that? 25 THE WITNESS: Nine. ' UCAREF00012189 1 2 3 4A 5Q 6 7A 8Q 9A 10 11 Q 12 13 A 14 15 Q 16 17 18 A 19 20 a 21 A 22 Q 23 24 25 (By Mr. Latham) All right. io and 11 are also articles put out by the Asbestos Information Association of North America; is that correct? Yes . And Union Carbide was a member of that Asbestos Information Association of North America? Yes . Do you know who all else was members of that? Fifty to a hundred companies. I couldn't give you all of the names. All of them either manufacture, mine, produce or use as a raw product,asbestos? Yes, and there were some associate members that might not be under those descriptions. M-12 is an article entitled "Asbestos and Your Health." Do you know who produced that? I couldn't find any indication. I am pretty sure this was produced by the QAMA. Why there it is. What is that? Quebec Asbestos Information Service. Is that the same type of organization as the American -- or the Asbestos Information Association of North America? I don't know whether they were that -- whether they UCAREF00012190 1 2Q 3 4 5 6 7 8 9A 10 Q 11 12 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 74 were similar or not. All right. Then 13 and 14 are also articles put out by the Asbestos Information Association, and I assume -- first le me ask you that question. [| I Ii i I t ii MR. SHIPLEY: I'm sorry, what was the question? MR. LATHAM: Those were also put out by i i i the Asbestos Information Association? Yes. I think this is the same as an earlier one. (By Mr. Latham) I assume the purpose of the I Ii I Asbestos Information Association is to put out information on asbestos? I 'Asbestos and Health and How to Use Asbestos Safely." All right. Are the charter of the association. The next article is M-15 and it is called "Calidria Asbestos" -- is that how you pronounce that? Yes. l i And that is put out by Union Carbide? Yes. All right. i October, 1968. And to whom was this given or distributed? It would be sent to tape joint producers, tape joint compound producers such as Georgia-Pacific. UCAREF00012191 Q 2 3A 4 5Q 6 7 8 9Q 10 11 A 12 Q 13 14 A 15 16 Q 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A 24 Q 25 And whoever else was running the 'Acme plant in 1968 if it wasn't Georgia-Pacific? It logically would have been sent to any producers of tape joint compound. All right. MR. SHIPLEY: Are you talking about M-15? MR. LATHAM: M-15, yes. MR. SHIPLEY: All right. (By Mr. Latham) You said it was produced in October of 1968? That is the date on the document. Had you seen this at or near the time that it was put out by Union Carbide? Not that I recall. I was not involved with marketing at that time. The reason I asked that is because on about Page 4 of the article, it mentions that there had been reported increased incidents of cancerous tumors, especially of lungs associated with asbestosis. I thought you testified, as marketing director out there in California, you didn't know about that until the '70s? I wasn't marketing manager until 1970. But it wasn't until after in the '70s sometime that you were aware of that? j UCAREF00012192 1A The early '70s. 2Q All right. So there were a couple of years, or at 3 least two after this was published that you were 4 made aware that there was some association 5 between -- 6A I didn't say that, no. 7Q All right. 8A In fact, I think from reviewing this with you, it 9 is probably 1970 would be when I began -- because 10 I was responsible for sending out this kind of 11 information to customers. 12 All right. Up until that point, until you became 13 responsible, you hadn't been told anything about 14 the report in '63 that said that - 15 A Hot that I recall. 16 MR. SHIPLEY: I will object to you calling 17 it a report. It is not a report. 18 A It is a sales literature. 19 Q (By Mr. Latham) Sales literature? 20 A Yes. 21 Q 22 But they hadn't informed you of that several years ago it was reported there was an increase in the 23 incidence of cancerous tumors in the lungs associated 24 with asbestos. You didn't know that? 25 As I said before, I can't recall specifically that UCAREF00012193 1 2Q 3A 4Q 5 6 7A 8Q 9 10 A 11 12 13 Q 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 A 22 23 Q 24 A 25 Q I had read about that before -All right. -- or anything like that before. M-16 is a -- looks like some more sales literature produced by Union Carbide, and I can't seem to find Ii ' | ! 1 f a date on there. Let's see if you can - No, I don't see any date on this. Okay. Also, sales information published by Union I | Carbide. well, let's see, not really sales information. it looks like a report of tests or -- using pelletized asbestos versus open fiber. I want to go back just a second to M-15, which was published by Union Carbide in 1968, in October, and ' I believe in answer to earlier questions, you said that it wasn't until the '79s that you knew that ; i ] I j j asbestos was related to lung disease, cancer, or mesothelioma. That you didn't know about it in | ! '63 up through the '70s. to earlier? i Is that what you testified j i No, I said I didn't remember, or wasn't -- I didn't remember that I knew - Okay. I -- earlier than that. All right. You don't recall now that you knew UCAREF00012194 1 2A 3Q 4A 5Q 6 7 8 9 10 11 Q 12 13 14 15 16 Q 17 18 19 20 21 Q 22 23 A 24 Q 25 earlier than that? 7 3 ?ii! NO. Is that what you mean? Yes. [ i I In '63, whoever wrote this for George -- or for f Union Carbide, it says it has been known for many i 1 years that some persons working with asbestos produc-j _~ 1 tion were prone to develop a disabling lung disease I MR. SHIPLEY: May I see it a minute, j please? (By Mr. Latham) -- under toxicological properties. Did anyone in Union Carbide tell you in 1963, '64, '65, '66, '67, that it had been known for many years that people developed lung disease from asbestosis? i ii i Not that I recall, specifically. All right. MR. SHIPLEY: I think it may not be clear from your question, but that was talking about asbestosis. MR. LATHAM: Yes. (By Mr. Latham) You recognize asbestosis as a lung disease? Yes. All right. M-17 appears to contain some of the material that is in M-15, and maybe additional, but UCAREF00012195 ----------- ---- ------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------- =L=4 J1 also appears to be -- maybe a conglomeration of i 2 sales information by -- produced by Union Carbide, J i 3 and I imagine maybe at different tines. 4A Well, this is obviously Page 2 of something, 2,3, ! 1r 5 4 and 5 -- this is a different product and j i 6 application. | 70 Okay. We may have made a mistake in stapling it \ i 8 together and putting it all there, but whatever is i ! 9 in M-17 was produced by Union Carbide? ! 10 A Wo. The last sheet was an article out of a 11 publication called Western Plastic. The rest of it 12 was information produced by Union Carbide. i i 13 Q All right. M-18 appears also to be some marketing i 14 information put out by Union Carbide; is that 15 correct? i 16 A Yes. j 17 Q 18 M-19 and 20, the same thing, marketing information put out by Union Carbide? 19 A I think M-19 is similar -- yes, put out by Union 20 Carbide. 21 Q All right. And 20, also? 22 A Yes. 23 Q M-21 and M-22 appear to.be some kind of 24 specifications for the use of Union Carbide products; 25 is that correct? UCAREF00012196 A Formulations, yes. Q All right. ! II A Or you can call it specifications. 22 is just a product characteristic of one of our products -- ' I j one of Union Carbide's products. j Q 23 , 24 and 25 are documents put out by Union Carbide, I i marketing information? j ! A 23 and 24 are marketing information. Q All right. I ! A 25 is a report of a sales -- a salesman's report of calls. . 0 Q All right. And logically, does this belong in the same sequence as M-2? A Yes. j I ! i | Q Or whatever the numbers -- yes. All right. Put those together for the time being and maybe we can J ! get them all together. All right. 26 and 27 are more articles by the Asbestos Information Association? A Yes. Q All of these articles were inUnion Carbide'sfile and at some time or another were available to whoever had access to the files? A Yes. Q M-28appears alsoto be areport of call, with an UCAREF00012197 __________________________________________________________________________ 3 I *f 1 article from Adhesive Age attached to it. Do you 2 know if that belonged on there or not? 3A Yes, it belongs there and it is a report of call. 4Q Okay. So it logically also belongs in 2? 5A Yes. 6Q All right. And M-29 is some more marketing t I 7 information produced by Union Carbide? 8A Yes. if 9Q M-30 is a letter from Mr. Rhodes. Do you know 10 Mr. Rhodes? 11 A Dr. Rhodes, yes. 12 Q Technology manager to the head of the corporate 13 purchasing of Georgia-Pacific, discussing Consumer 14 Product Safety Commission's proposed ban. 15 MR. SHIPLEY: On consumer taping, 16 spackling and joint ceiling compounds. 17 MR. LATHAM: Yes. 18 A Yes. 19 Q (By Mr. Latham) And M-31 appears to be two letters; 20 one, a letter to Georgia-Pacific from Mr. Rhodes, or ii 21 Dr. Rhodes, and a letter to Mr. Byrne from Georgia 22 Pacific, both in May of 1977. Is that right? 23 A Yes. 24 Q There is a handwritten note on the top of the first 25 one. Do you know who wrote that? UCAREF00012198 A Yes, I wrote that. Q What does it say? I I A "May 11, 1977, RFQ Fusaro advised that CSPC it }I should be CPSC -- "has power to order, buy back by producers. This is GP's fear. JLM" Q Do you recall what conversation it was that you had that inspired that notation? A I would need to read the letters first to find out. Well, my note just really covers the -- oh, I see now. Mr. Fusaro was in the Union Carbide legal department and he advised me that the Consumer Product Safety Commission has the power to order, buy back by producers, which means the CPSC could j jorder Georgia-Pacific to remove asbestos-containing products. Q Buy them back -- J i! j A Buy them back from people they had supplied them to. Q And someone at Georgia-Pacific expressed concern j about that to you? A Let's see -- let me see the wording again. I assume they had, or perhaps it had come through Dr. Rhodes or the salesperson. Q Do you recall why the Consumer Product Safety Commission was wanting to ban certain asbestos products, such as tape, spackling, joint and ceiling UCAREF00012199 1 2 3Q 4 5A 6 7 8Q 9 10 11 A 12 Q 13 14 A 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A 24 25 compound? MR. SHIPLEY: The Consumer Product -- (3y Mr. Latham) Do you know why they wanted to buy that? I think they were doing that based on Dr. Selikoff's j j report -- not Dr. Selikoff, but the Mount Sinai report. Well, was it your idea that the purpose behind it was for safety people that came in contact with j I !I j | | certain asbestos products -- For safety people. -- for the safety of people who came in contact with certain asbestos products? It was to reduce the airborne fibers, yes. If you eliminate a product which has asbestos in it, I j I ! i j would reduce airborne fibers. Would your understanding, having dealt with mined products and finished products, that there would be more airborne fibers coming from a consumer use of joint ceiling compound or more airborne fibers involved in the mixture of the ceiling compound using raw asbestos fiber? Depends on entirely how it was handled, just like any other dusty product that could be handled safely. UCAREF00012200 34 ft 1 Assuming it wasn't handled at all, just a i 2 consumer dealing with joint compound on one hand ft 3 and a worker who is mixing the joint compound on t 4 other, using raw asbestos products in the mixture. ii 5 I 6 MR. SIIIPLEY: Then you are handling the product. 7A It depends on how carefully they handled it. i I 8Q (By Mr. Latham) In the ceiling compound, there is 9 10 A not -- it is not only made up of asbestos, is it? Ceiling compound? i iii ft 11 Q Or the joint compound. On the joint compound, it i 12 is not solely made up of asbestos? 13 A NO . ft 14 Q Asbestos is just a small fraction? 15 A I don't remember what fraction it is. j i | ft 16 Q But it is a percentage, less than whole? | 17 A Yes. 18 Q And it has other things in it? ft 19 A Yes. 1 20 Q In fact, after you mix that, the asbestos, in what J 21 form does it take? Is it sort of a liquid type j ft 22 form? j 23 A No, it is like mud. s ft 24 Q Okay. Like mud? 25 A In fact, that is what they call it, yes. j j L UCAREF00012201 35 1 All right. Raw asbestos, as it is shipped in sacks 2 like a powder - 3A 4Q Yes. -- and it is -- contains one hundred percent i I 5 6A 7Q 8 9 asbestos fibers? Yes. And my question to you is isn't it -- isn't a person l iI ii I that -- who is dealing with the raw asbestos in any quantity at all, more likely to get involved with i 10 airborne fibers of asbestos than a person using the 11 joint compound? 12 Using the ready-mix mud or joint compound should 13 have no exposure. 14 All right. 15 A Because it is wet with water. 16 Q All right. So then you agree with my statement 17 that the person dealing with -- the employee who is 18 handling raw asbestos with a scoop and dumping it 19 into a bin, or sweeping it up out of a plant where ii 20 it is lying around, would get more airborne fibers, 21 is likely to get more airborne fibers than the usage 22 of the joint compound? 23 A If anybody handled it in this way, sure. 24 Q 25 All right. And that -- but that when told that this product was going to be banned or is proposed to be i 1 iI UCAREF00012202 1 2 3 4 5 6A 7 Q 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 A 15 Q 16 17 18 19 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q banned because of worry about consumer safety and health -- I an talking about the joint conpound, w.hat Georg ia-Pac..if.ic expressed to you was fear they were going to have to buy back all of those products? They expressed it to someone, yes. Did they express to you fear for their employees that were dealing with raw asbestos, handling it day after day after day? ' I ! !j ; i ; i t: i ! I ii j They didn't express anything like that to me. They wouldn't have any reason to. Okay. You all were the folks that were selling at least some of their asbestos, weren't you? Yes. | | M-32 is -- contains three documents, I think, maybe four. One is a letter to Georgia-Pacific from you about the Consumer Product Safety Commission proposal to ban taping, spackling and joint ceiling compound. Consumer use of those. j f = i rt | j I ^ What? The consumer use of those. Yes. A big difference between - Okay . i UCAREF00012203 _________________________________________________________________________ 3 7 k 1 As you know, between consumers using it and 2 professionals using it. I 3 Okay, and a letter to Mr. -- from Mr. A. S. Hart, 4 the chairman of the Consumer Product Safety 5 Commission. And a letter from Mr. Mereness with I 6 the Asbestos Information Institute also to 7 Mr. Byington with the Consumer Product Safety I 8 Commission. 9 What was the question -- is the question just are 10 these the letters you described? 11 Q Yes. 12 A Yes. 13 Q Okay. The subject of all of these letters in M-32 ft 14 was the proposed ban? 15 Yes, proposed ban on the consumer use of those i 16 various compounds. 17 M-33 is a series of documents, and they may be 18 redundant. It kind of looks like maybe some of them 19 may be -- it may be two sets that have to do with 20 what is called an asbestos bag opener. Is that - 21 A Yes. 22 Q 23 And apparently the company that manufactured that was Certain-Teed Machinery? 24 No. It says* "Patent Applied For" -- their name is 25 on the sheet. UCAREF00012204 t ? 1Q 2A 3Q 4A 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 A 22 Q 23 24 25 Caa you describe for us, basically, what that is? - If you will let me look at it. Yes, okay. j i j ii I can just read it. "Certain-Teed Model 440 asbestos bag opener is completely automated and environmentally isolated as a test bag opening machine." If you will look through that, can you tell me if i i j J what that is is the specifications and marketing information on a machine apparently manufactured or designed by Certain-Teed Machinery that will allow for the opening of bags of asbestos without exposure to the air of the fibers? It sounds like if it was operating properly and was ; being operated properly, it would do that, yes. Does that have a date on it anyplace or any way that you can date that? (Whereupon, an off-the-record discussion was held.)I i I don't see any date on it at all. Will you agree with me that unless there is some I minor technological changes in there, that there are about three pages of the document and everything else is repeat? UCAREF00012205 1A 2Q 3 4 5 6A 7Q 8 9 10 A 11 12 13 Q 14 15 A 16 Q 17 18 A 19 Q 20 21 22 A 23 24 Q 25 It appears that way without sorting it. ! From looking at this machine, do you agree that the purpose of it is to allow the opening of bags and i i ! emptying of bags of raw asbestos without exposing ; any employees to the dust? That is what it says on the face of it. And does it appear to be applicable to raw asbestos as it is packaged by -- in paper sacks by companies 1I | i j j such as Union Carbide? ' It is called an asbestos bag opener, and I assume it means a bag of asbestos, not a bag made out of asbestos. All right. And do you have any idea -- had you ever seen that before today, by the way? No. So you don't have any idea when this information was received by Union Carbide? No. Do you knowifUnionCarbide,while you were i li j ! j J i j i j j i j marketing the asbestos products, ever forwarded any information like this to any of its customers? Yes, we did discuss the use of bag openers with customers, yes. Do you recall ever discussing it with Georgia- Pacific or Best Drywall Company, or anyone related I UCAREF00012206 1 2A 3 4Q 5 6 7A 8Q 9 10 A 11 Q 12 A 13 Q 14 A 15 16 Q 17 18 19 A 20 Q 21 22 23 A 24 Q 25 90 to the Acme plant in Quanah? . Not specifically, and I probably wouldn't have been talking to them directly. . ' Were there other sales people who talked with them directly that arranged for the transfer and sale of ; j asbestos products? Yes. 34, 35, 36 and 37 also appear to be call reports j l j I j and probably belong with Exhibit M-2. Yes, they are. * Did you ever visit the Acme plant? Not that I can remember. Do you ever remember being in Quanah, Texas? Oh, is that -- is there an Acme, Texas and a j j Quanah, Texas? I think that there is a sign out there at theplant that says Acme, Texas thatis just outside of Quanah. I am sure that I have never visited there. Did you ever visit any plant belonging to either Georgia-Pacific, Certain-Teed, or BestDrywall Company? j i j ti | i i i i I I | ! j j Yes, I believe I did. And the follow-up of my question was where Union j i Carbide's asbestos products were being.used? UCAREF00012207 Did you visit a plant where they were being used? Oh, yes , yes. And which plants did you visit that you can recall where -- I The only one I recall visiting out of those ones you mentioned were Georgia-Pacific in Akron, New . York. I think it was Akron. Do you remember when you visited there? No. Within five years. \ i J Or what your job was when you did visit there? Oh, marketing manager. It was during that time when you were marketing manager? Yes. In California? Yes. Do you remember what the purpose of your visit was? I think it was probably just a sales call for PR purposes. Okay. It was close to my office in Niagara Falls. I didn't have to travel to Quanah, Texas. And did you go through and get the cook's tour of the plant? UCAREF00012208 __________________________________________________________ ___________ 32 1A I can't really recall. 2Q Did they have a joint system there? 3A What do you mean? 4Q A system that -- a plant that made joint compound? 5A Yes. 6 7 8 9 10 Q (Whereupon, an off-the-record discussion was held.) : i i j I I * And do you think you visited the joint -- the place 11 12 A where they made the joint compound? * Yes. I I | 13 Q 14 A 15 16 Q 17 Went physically into the plant? I can't remember whether I was into the plant or visiting with the manager. Do you recall whether you saw themethod by which they moved the asbestos from the warehouse where it ! i | j I j 18 was stored to the plant and then placed it in the 19 mixing machines? 20 A I don't remember, no. 21 Q 22 23 A 24 Q 25 Do you remember seeing any of their air control or dust control systems? No. Do you recall ever discussing with anyone at GeorgiaPacific, Best Drywall or Certain-Teed, dust control UCAREF00012209 1 2A 3Q 4A 5Q 6A 7Q 8 9A 10 Q 11 12 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 18 19 20 Q 21 22 A 23 24 25 93 systems? I don't recall, no. Who was the plant manager at Akron, by the way? -.. I have no idea. ! i Do you remember who you met with at Akron? No. Because they were good customers, you droppedby to say hello? j ! j Yes, with.the salesman, I am sure. Do you know if Union Carbide ever assisted Georgia- Pacific, Certain-Teed, or Best Drywall Company in making air studies at their plant? I don't know whether we assisted then, no. Did you ever make air studies at the plant? Yes. And -- MR.SHIPLEY: Do youmean him, individually? MR. LATHAM: No, Union Carbide. (By Mr. Latham) Atwhichplant did Union Carbide make air studies for Georgia-Pacific? I am pretty sure we did one at Akron, New York. I can't recall if we did any -- I think they had a plant in Marietta, Georgia. I don't have any more knowledge than that. UCAREF00012210 1Q 2 3A 4Q 5 6A 7 8 9 10 Q 11 12 13 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 21 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q 94 If I tell you they did have a plant at Marietta, j would that help you? It wouldn't help me, no. Do you recall why you did the air studies? i | At whose request? j I We made a practice of offering air monitoring j i studies to any customer to determine their compliance j with TLV's, so it would have always been at the customer's request. Did you offer it by way of your salesmen telling them that it was available? Did you offer it by way of some sort of information that you provided them in written form, or how did you all offer it? Through the salesmen. j j All right. Who may have put it in a written form. I j And when did you start doing that? When did you -- j As I recall, our first one was in 1971. j And how did you initiate it? Did the company make the decision, you call all of your salesmen and tell them it was available as a customer service? I don't know how it was physically communicated. All right. . It was communicated. All right. Do you recall when the test was done. I UCAREF00012211  1 2A 3Q 4A 5Q 6A 7Q 8A 9Q 10 11 A 12 13 14 Q 15 16 A 17 18 Q 19 20 A 21 Q 22 23 A 24 25 Q either in Akron, or Marietta, Georgia? Uo. j i ) 1 Some time after '71? i Yes. i Or '71 or after? 1 i Yes. i1i All right. ii j And before they quit using it, whatever that date is.! And what kind of monitoring device or devices was used in making the test? The ones prescribed by NIAOSH. It was phase contrast. I forget the people at NIAOSH, Bayer or Zumwalde, or something like that. - Does that involve taking a sample and testing it somewhere else? You collect fibers on a cellulose disk and dissolve I the disk away and count the fibers. And you take that someplace else, like a laboratory or something? ! Yes. Did Union Carbide have a laboratory that could do that? Yes. We had a building -- yes, we had a 1 laboratory. And where was that laboratory located? UCAREF00012212 36 A. in Niagara Falls, New York. Q Did it do other types of laboratory work besides I ! that? A Yes. t j j jQ Like check contamination of nuclear things and stuff like that? A No. i | MR. SHIPLEY: Can we take a real short break? MR. LATHAM: Yes. (Short recess taken.) j Q Okay. After the testing was done in -- you remember for sure it was done in Akron and you think it may have been done also in Marietta? A Yes. Q Did -- was a report made of the test? A Yes. | Q And was it-- a copy of the reportor the original | report sent to Georgia-Pacific? A That would be the normal procedure,yes. Q Okay, and would acopy be maintained by your company? A Yes. UCAREF00012213 1Q 2A 3Q 4A 5Q 6A 7Q 8 9 10 A 11 12 13 Q 14 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 22 23 A 24 Q 25 '1 And where would it bemaintained? 37 ! 4- 1 They were all maintained in Niagara Falls. At the laboratory? Yes. Have you seen a copy of thatreport? ; i | i ii I : Yes. ^ Can you recall whether or not at the time the tests I were made, the plant passed, as far as the standards : that were in effect at that time? I As I recall, all the -- we have seldom had any j I plant, customer plant tests that would be outside of J the threshhold limit valuefor asbestos. j And what was the procedure in caseit was outside the threshhold limit? ; ! j Our procedure? Yes. All we did was send them the report. All right. We would usually note that in a cover letter. j i | I I i I ! j Were you ever told or were you aware of the types j of dust control equipment being used at any of the Georgia-Pacific plants? No, not that I recall. Do you recall whether or not your company, through your marketing information, advised your customers UCAREF00012214 1 2A 3 4 5 6 7A 8 9Q 10 A 11 12 13 14 15 16 Q 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q 24 25 A products? I would say we did that indirectly by our custoner i mailings on the "Asbestos and Health and Safe Use : i of Asbestos Procedures." ; i MR. SHIPLEY: Just to clarify, that is the sale literature that he talked to you about? Mo. We haven't talked about general mailings. We made general mailings to customers of record. When did you begin to make general mailings? I know I have seen one date in 1970 to a specific customer. I think we probably began in 1972 or so to make general mailings on an annual basis. This would include,primarily, theAsbestos Information Associationdocuments or similar information. When did Union Carbide begin to require respirators ' i I j I i or similar devices for their employees at their plant in California? To the best of my remembrance or knowledge, this probably would have been started in 1963 in specific areas where it was expected that the dust levels might be in excess of the TLV's -- recommended TLV's. And can you describe for me what areas those would have been? Mothing more than I have already testified or told UCAREF00012216 1 2Q _____________________________________________________ ________________ 13 1 you, the packaging area. The packaging area. Is that the area where just - I 1 i 3A Where the asbestos is put into a package. 4Q Through some sort of machine that funnels it into 5 the package? 6A Yes. ii 7Q Any other areas besides the packaging area where f 9 8 you would have required respirators? i 9A 10 Probably in the vehicle loading, which would be in an enclosed area. to 11 Q what do you mean -- what vehicles are we talking 12 about? 13 A 14 Q 15 A Trucks or railroad cars or boxcars. All right. Loading them with sacks? With pallets of asbestos. i ! i 16 Q All right. And you are talking about asbestos that 17 18 A 19 Q 20 was in the paper bags? The paper bags, yes. And by pallets, so that a jury will understand, I guess that a pallet is a wooden platform that \ 1 21 has got openings so that a forklift can lift it up? 22 A 23 Q 24 25 A Yes. And you stacked so many sacks of bags -- or bags on it? Paper bags. UCAREF00012217 1Q 2 3 4 5 6A 7Q 8 9 10 A 11 12 13 Q 14 A 15 16 Q 17 18 A 19 Q 20 21 22 23 24 25 Paper bags. And then the bags on the pallet are j loaded onto whatever transportation system you are going to use, either railroad car or truck, so that they can be unloaded in the same way when they get to the destination? Yes. i i !I j i j r | And it was the people who drove the forklift and stacked the pallets with the sacks that were required to wear respirators starting in about 1963? j i I would assume. I wasn't there, but I would assume that they did that. We have made that a practice because of the dust measurements that we make. All right. ! As I said earlier, we encouraged and had a very high j percentage of respirator use by all employees. And I guess you encouraged it by way of safety meetings, safety information? * As stated earlier, yes. j I | j Now, did Union Carbide or did you as the marketing j director or the head of the technical side, envision j that when the pallets were received by your customer, that a reverse process was going to be gone through where the pallets would have to be taken out of the railroad car or the truck and put someplace for storage, and then eventually unstacked by hand? UCAREF00012218 1A 2 3Q 4A 5Q 6A 7 8Q 9A 10 Q II 12 13 A 14 15 Q 16 17 18 19 A 20 21 22 23 24 Q 25 102 Well, they definitely would have to go in and unload with a forklift. All right. | ' ! Or take each bag off separately and carry it. All right. ! i J I would assume that they would use forklifts to i unload. To get it into a central storage place of some sort? | Yes. And then from there, the bags would have to be lifted by hand and taken to wherever they are going to be opened, I guess? Unless the plant had a machine of some type to do that. And would you imagine that the requirement for j i i tI j respirators would be just as important for employees j j who were unloading the bags as they were for employee^ who were loading the bags? Well, it all depends. I would assume -- or I i j shouldn't assume -- but the customer would be making dust counts, also, to see if he felt like respirators should be worn during that particular practice. And by assuming, that means that you neither told nor mentioned to your customers that in the unloading UCAREF00012219 1 2 3 4A 5Q 6 7 8A 9Q 10 11 12 13 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q 24 25 procedures, that dust counts were apt to be high and their employees should wear respirators, based on your own experience? I don't recall telling anyone that myself. And do you recall seeing any information where anyone else with Union Carbide told anyone about that? Not unless you found it in some of the call reports. How, in the bagging procedure, not the loading and unloading, but the bagging procedure where the bags were actually loaded, was another area that you all discovered had high concentrations of dust, or they were likely to occur? I would say more likely to occur. All right. And I don't think you can just use the word "high." The levels there may have been in excess of the threshhold limit values. MR. SHIPLEY: Do you know whether they were? THE WITNESS: I am sure on occasion they were, yes. (By Mr. Latham) And is that because there is some point in the packaging process where the raw asbestos fibers were exposed to the air, the UCAREF00012220 1 2A 3Q 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 A 13 14 15 16 Q 17 A 18 19 20 Q 21 22 23 24 A 25 atmosphere? Only if a hag burst. Okay. Did you ever have a procedure at your plant where an employee was exposed to raw asbestos without a respirator -- well, first of all, where an employee was exposed to raw asbestos as a routine matter, where you didn't have to rely on a bag to break or something like that? Where they were physically handling the raw asbestos either with > scoops or some other method of physically handling the raw asbestos? We would handle the raw asbestos ore, that would be no problem of walking over the ore pile. And in the laboratory, they would be using raw asbestos to make the quality control tests. All right. And most of our asbestos is wet, so if you had to clean up a broken bag spill, you would have to be handling raw asbestos. And in handling raw asbestos where the employees would be handling it in open areas, is that the type of situation where you would require respirators? Not in all cases. That would depend on whether it is airborne or not. It doesn't just jump out of a UCAREF00012221 4 t 1 2 3 4 5 6A 7Q 8A 9Q 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 _______ _____ _______ 105 bag and become airborne. It has a specific gravitv * of'2.45. It is relatively heavy. Let me ask you to assume that in a particular plant, an employee was required to carry a bag of asbestos, i ! I ! iI j I ; j | a sack. I would prefer the word "bag." ; i j All right. It would be more likely to be paper. ! I I : All right, a bag. Splitting the bag open with a knife or some other sharp object. And with a`scoop, scoop out measures of asbestos and raise it up and empty it into a mixer, a dry mixer. > j i | i j MR. SHIPLEY: What is the question? ; MR. LATHAM: I am asking him to assume these things. MR. SHIPLEY: It isan assumption? MR. LATHAM: Yes. (By Mr. Latham) In your experience, was that worker J J | j likely to be exposed to more than the minimum threshholds of asbestos dust? Not necessarily. If he really mishandled it, and you are saying he is going to, say, shakes the scoop around. I don't know that anybody uses a scoop to remove asbestos from a bag. You don't think it is a proper procedure to use? UCAREF00012222 * 1A If there is ventilation equipment, I think that j 2 3Q would be fine. What kind of ventilation equipment would you need? j I ; 4A The same that I havedescribed previously. i 5Q A sucking kind of thing that vacuums it away? j 6A Right. : 7Q All right. But ifit -- J 8A It depends on whether it was wet or dry. ! 9Q You all ship it dry? 10 A Yes. " 11 Q And I am assuming that it is dry. 12 A It can be wetted in the bag before it is taken 13 14 Q out of the bag. And not wetted in the bag before it is taken out? I j 15 A 16 Q 17 Either way. Would you imagine that from time to time the employee, if not properly warned, would overfill j i j 18 the scoop, would shake some of the dust off of it j 19 into his face as he was emptying it into the hopper? 20 MR. SHIPLEY: I am going to object to the 21 form of the question. It calls for speculation 22 23 24 25 Q and hypotheses and opinions, and I don't know that this witness is qualified to talk about it. (By Mr. Latham) If you were going to clean asbestos UCAREF00012223 1 2 3 4A 5Q 6 7 8 9 10 A 11 Q 12 13 A 14 15 Q 16 A 17 18 19 Q 20 21 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q ________________ 10 7 dust off of the machinery and equipment, I believe you said that you -- your firm used -- that Union Carbide used a vacuum system? Or water. Or water. Have you ever seen anyone use a blower system where they took an air hose with compressed air and squirted it around where the asbestos was so that they could blow it off machinery and that sort of thing? No. * Would that -- do you think that would be apt to fill the air with asbestos fibers? I don't know whether it would fill the air. There would certainly be some if there was enough there. All right. I am sure you are aware it takes exposure to high quantities for long periods of time, if you did this once a day. I j | j i j j That I am aware of what now, that it takes high quantities of asbestos long periods of time to do what? To cause lung disease. And where did you get that information? From almost all of the scientific literature. You wouldn't agree that some of the scientific UCAREF00012224 1 2 3A 4Q 5A 6Q 7A 8Q '9 A 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 A 17 Q 18 19 20 21 22 A 23 Q 24 25 10 3 " ------------material says that a single exposure can eventually result in lung disease? Mo. , You have never seen any information like that? I have seen the claims, yes. But you don't buy that? No. You mean one-fiber-can-kill theory? Single-exposure theory. ii No. (Whereupon, an off-the-record discussion was held.) You think it takes a long exposure over many years to do that? I am speaking for chrysotheal asbestos. Besides the warnings that you put on the bags, did you ever warn any of your purchasers that asbestos had been known to cause asbestosis, which was a permanently disabling lung disease, that asbestos does -- Those are your words. You don't think that asbestosis is a permanently disabling lung disease? I am not a scientist or a doctor. t i i j | I j j j ! UCAREF00012225 1Q 2 3 4 5 6 7Q 8A 9Q 10 A 11 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 17 18 19 A 20 Q 21 22 23 24 25 Did you ever warn any of your clients or your customers that asbestos dust could cause asbestosis or lung disease? I MR. SHIPLEY : Are you limiting it to what was on the bag or are you talking about the exhibits? (3y Mr. Latham) Besides the bag? Yes. How did you do that an when did you start? \tI II i i Just what we have discussed previously, the mailings that were sent to customers. Starting in 1970 -- I am guessing it was '70, '71, '72. All right. And some of the literature that talks about asbestos and diseases. MR. SHIPLEY: Are those the exhibits that i ii I i * we have gone through here today? Yes. (By Mr. Latham) You are talking about the information from the Asbestos Information Association? Yes. MR. SHIPLEY: What about M-15? That was dated in 1968. UCAREF00012226 1 2 3 4 5Q 6A 7 8Q 9A 10 Q 11 A 12 13 Q 14 A 15 16 Q 17 18 A 19 Q 20 21 A 22 Q 23 24 A 25 Q THE WITNESS: That was passed out, too, but we didn't start -- he asked about warning customers. i think he meant in general, but this was done in *63. (By Mr. Latham) All right. To your customers? That was for tape joint customers, tape joint manufacturers. But they didn't pass it out to you? I wasn't in marketing in 1968. What were you doing in 1968? I was technical superintendent, in the plant from 1967 to 1970. And what was your job as technical superintendent? Supervising the laboratory and starting up the new equipment to make the modified products. You were setting up a portion of the plant to take raw asbestos and turn it into some sort of product? Well, that's -- yes. And had employees under you who were helping you do that? Yes. And people under you who were going to be exposed to varying degrees of asbestos? Varying degrees, yes, usually very low. And yet you never received this information in 1963? | UCAREF00012227 1A 2 3Q 4 5A 6Q 7A 8Q 9 10 11 12 A 13 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 18 19 A 20 21 Q 22 23 A 24 Q 25 Ill I wasn't involvedwithmarketing people. tothe tape joint Were you involved in the supervision employees? :jo . and safety of All right. : j il j j I j I have said that I don't recall seeing it previously. i i All right. In the 1968 document that we looked at, j was it sent to every asbestos customer or consumer ! at that time that was consuming from you all,* the manufacturer - It was prepared for tape joint compound manufac turers. All right. And I assume it was sent to then. ! I II And if that being true that -- and if Georgia-Pacific j was a tape joint compound manufacturer, they would | have gotten a copy of this? I don't know whether they were a customer in '68 without looking at the sales records. Certain-Teed, Bestwall, if they were customers, they would have gotten a copy of this? Yes. Other than the information that you provided today, was there any other information given to your __________________ II UCAREF00012228 112 1 customers -- by that I mean Union Carbide's 1 2 customers concerning the safety -- the safe use 3 of asbestos and the hazards in the use of asbestos 4 while you were in the asbestos portion of the i 5 industry? i I i 6A I am sure that there are other documents se-.t. I 7 know that we did send copies of the regulations 8 or regulatory changes as they were made, and there 9 have been other articles written and published that 10 perhaps would have been sent. 11 Q 12 A All right. But the main concern was the AIA published I 13 information on it. 14 Q Who decided what information to send to the 15 customer? 16 A Well, when I was marketing manager, it would be a 17 joint effort between myself and the sales personnel 18 under me. 19 Q 20 A Did you receive any -- Which we thought was appropriate for particular 21 end users. 22 Q 23 24 25 You didn't receive any help or direction from above about how to do that or when you ought to do that or anything? I would have -- I would get permission, normally, of UCAREF00012229 * 9 9 9 * 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8A 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q 113 what we were going to write and what we were going to send from my boss. - Well, is it true that all of these documents that j J J we talked about from the AIA, if they were sent to the customers, were sent because it was your original idea to do it and -- but before you did it, you had to get permission to do it? j i I can't really recall whether I thought it up or not.| t It was -- this was a very small, close-knit group j in the asbestos business and it was very easy to do things in a -- I hate to say in a committee way, but many things were handled that way. It was discussed what would be necessary and what would be j i i | the best advice for the customer and the best information. , But the committee started at your level with you of the committee? j * j I head : | Ho, I don't want to make it sound like it was a formal committee. It was a discussion of my peers and ray supervisors, perhaps the medical department. All right. Perhaps the legal department. All right. Just a joint effort to inform the customers. All right. Well then, I misunderstood. I UCAREF00012230 1 2 3 4A 5 6Q 7 8 9 10 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 Q 23 24 A 25 Q 114 thought originally you said it was you and your salesmen that got together and decided to do this, and then sought permission from up above. I was trying to explain that sometimes you would involve other people in it. Well then, did it initiate, to send out this information, the general mailings as we have called them, at the legal department, the medical department, the sales department, your department or where? I can't really say where they originated. You said there was a medical department? Union Carbide has a medical department, yes. And what does that consist of, doctors? Oh , yes , doctors. And where is it located? Today it is in Danbury, Connecticut. And then, where was it located? Danbury, Connecticut and New York, the hone office. All right. That was the corporate medical department. Okay. Were there full time doctors on staff with the department? Yes. And can you give me an idea of how many? UCAREF00012231 * 1A No. 113 2Q 3 4 5A 6Q 7A 8Q 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 A 18 Q 19 20 21 A 22 Q 23 24 25 Did you ever receive any medical information from the medical department concerning the hazards of asbestos? Yes. f what did you receive fromthem? I can't recall anyspecificinformation. I li j II ! i ! Did you receive documentation that came from them and initiated by them, or were they just passed on, I i j j for example, that they got someplace else? It was probably both. I think that originated with the medical department on M-15. Okay. Do you know if besides the Sayers' report. if Union Carbide ever did any of its own studies concerning the -- its employees and the effects of asbestos exposure on them? Not to my knowledge. Do you know if they did a program where employees involved in the mining and manufacturing of asbestos were routinely X-rayed with a chest X-ray? What was the question again? Was there ever a program set up where employees of the mining and manufacturing division that produced asbestos, where they were routinely X-rayed? Yes . UCAREF00012232 1Q 2A 3Q 4A 5Q 6A 7Q 8 9A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 24 25 Had chest X-rays? Yes. And when wasthat begun? 1963. ' And how long did it continue? It is still in practice. All right. And how often areyour employees X-rayed? Annually* How many employees would that be? * We currently -- well, KCAC has 40. You are continuing on with the KCAC employees, but it originatedwithUnionCarbide? Yes. Union Carbide employees? Yes. And where are the records of X-rays maintained? In the medical clinic in Kings City. Any employees ever develop asbestosis? No. Not a single one? No. MR. SHIPLEY: Is what he said correct? We have got a double negative going. Did any of them ever develop asbestosis? I i | j I ! i I I t j i I! ! tI - i UCAREF00012233 ft 1A 2Q No. (By Mr. Latham) Did any of them ever develop II 3 4A mesothelioma? NO. i 5Q Or any other form of cancer that has been related 6 to asbestos exposure? j 7A 8Q NO. while you were there, were there ever any claims | J | 9 made by anyone, an employee or not, that they had -- j 10 against Union Carbide, that they had contracted 11 asbestos -- asbestosis from Union Carbide - 12 A No. 13 Q 14 -- manufactured products while you werethere? That ; never happened? j 15 A No. 16 Q 17 Did anyone ever make a claim while you were there ! that mesothelioma -- that they developed mesothelioma 18 from a Union Carbide product? 19 A No. 20 Q 21 Or any other form of cancer related to asbestos exposure? 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q No. I think we have already answered those. I don't know when you did answer it. Just thirty seconds ago. I j i Okay. Well, thirty seconds ago, we were talking about] UCAREF00012234 1 2A 3Q 4A 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 A 13 Q 14 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 19 20 21 A 22 Q 23 24 A 25 Q ___________________ _________________________ employees. 113 i f I'm sorry, what - Now I am talking about anyone. Maybe you better -- maybe I better retract that. No employee has ever filed any compensation claim or any kind of claim against Union Carbide -- Union i i ii Carbide's asbestos mining and milling operation for any asbestos-related disease. All right. Now, has anyone at all while you were there, did anyone at all ever claim that they*" contracted asbestosis from a Union Carbide product? Yes. And when did -- when was the first claim that you are aware of, when was it made? I don't know. In the '60s, '70s? I don't know. The law department would have to answer that. Were you ever contacted by the home office concerning such a claim? Yes. And when was the first time you were ever contacted concerning such a claim? I don't recall. The late '70s, probably. The same thing is true, the same thing is true about UCAREF00012235 1 2A 3Q 4A 5Q 6A 7Q 8A 9Q 10 A 11 Q 12 13 14 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 22 A 23 Q 24 25 A mesothelioma? Yes . And the answer is "Yes, there have been"? I I Yes, there have been. That they would be maintained in the home office? There is litigation. I All right. I don't know where the records are maintained. 3ut the legal department would be aware of then? I hope they would. And how many times have you testified in either asbestosis cases, mesothelioma cases or some other type of cancer-related -- that is claimed to be I related to asbestos? Once. All right, and where was that? In Arkansas. I i j { Was that Little Rock? Yes. And that was, I think, what, 1985, did you say, around there? It was either '85 or '86. Did you serve as a witness for Union Carbide or a witness for the plaintiff who called you to testify? I think it was Union Carbide. UCAREF00012236 A Q 9A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q 12 0 MR. SHIPLEY: Was it a deposition or -- f THE WITNESS: Wo, it was a trial, it was a jury trial. It would be Union Carbide. (By Mr. Latham) Do you remember who the lawyer was that represented Union Carbide? No. Do you remember who the lawyer was that represented the plaintiff? No. Okay. Have you ever testified by deposition -- Yes. -- before today? Yes. Okay. When was that? 1 i 1 j 1 i i I I think the first one was 1931. Involving a case -- a case involving asbestosis, ! I on some claim of injury involving asbestos? Some claim. Do you remember where you testified? In Columbia, South Carolina. Was Union Carbide a party to that suit? Yes. And when was the next time? 1984, I think. And where was that? UCAREF00012237 __________________________________________________________ __________________________ 12 1 A That was Houston. Q Also a case in which Union Carbide was a party? I A Mo, wait a minute -- '34, I think, was Los Angeles. I'm sorry. Q Okay, Houston. A Union Carbide was, as far as I know, named in that sui t. Q And what Houston -- A Houston, I think, was '86. Q All right. * j A And as I understand, Union Carbide was not named in that suit. I i Q All right. In 19 -- in that suit that you testified j i in 1935, had you also had your deposition taken ! before you testified? i iI A Oh, in Little Rock -- no. Q All right. A Please don't hold me to those dates because -- Q All right. j A There should be a record somewhere. Q During the years that you were at -- in California - and I don't know if you became marketing director - just start when you were marketing director, how much gross sales of asbestos would you all have each year? UCAREF00012238 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 A 13 Q 14 15 16 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 23 Q 24 A 25 Q I think it would range about seven million dollars --j weil, it wasn't that high when I started. I would say starting at three and up to seven, max, would i | j cover the period. j Do you recall what you charged for asbestos? you charge by the pound or the ton? Did I ! j It was quite a range. It wouldn't make any difference. Some of the pricing was on dollars per ton and some was cents per pound. Can you just give us -- I guess we can find out from the -- the invoices of that? Yes . i Did you receive,or just tell us what education you received concerning asbestos when you made the j j switch from the nuclear side of the business to the asbestos side of the business? What education? Yes. About asbestos? Yes. As I have said before, I don't recall anything formal. Do you recall anything informal? No, I don't recall any. During the whole time that you were with the i l | UCAREF00012239 1 2 3 4 5A 6 7Q 8A 9 10 11 Q 12 13 A 14 Q 15 rv 16 Q 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q 25 ____12 3 asbestos side of the business, what kind of education did you receive besides on-the-job education, or at seminars, institutes, that sort of thing? Well, I went to a Communispond to learn how to speak. All right. j I went to a financial seminar to learn how to read a j i balance sheet. I attended several of the AIA NA j meetings discussing asbestos. *i Did you ever run into any Georgia-Pacific folks there? Not that I recall, no. What else? I j That is about it. Did you ever go to "60 Minutes, How to Deal with Dan Rather When He Shows Up at Your Office With a j Microphone"? That was part of the Communispond course. j I (Whereupon, an off-the-record discussion was held.) Let me go over one other thing that I may not have covered enough with you. In the Kings City plant. UCAREF00012240 1 2 3 4A 5 6Q 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 A 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Q 22 A 23 24 Q 25 you use respirators primarily -- I mean, required respirators primarily in interior areas, the loading and unloading areas, the packaging areas? Those were examples. MR. SHIPLEY: Objection, repetit ious. i ii i (By Mr. Latham) In both of those areas in addition to -- or in the packaging area, i n addition i to the respirator, you also had a vacuum s ystem that vacuumed the particles out of the area to reduce the level; is that right? MR. SHIPLEY: Objection, repetit ious. You can answer the question. The system has been changed over the years to improve the dust removal efficiency. I ca n 1 t describe to you the system other than it i s not -- i ii it is not a big hose or lots of hoses stuc k around in different areas to suck asbestos. It's an engineered system to reduce the amount of fibers that might escape from the bag while it is being filled. i Who designed the system, do you know? It would be our -- it would be the Union Carbide engineering department. Now, I guess that somebody could say that a big exhaust fan in the roof of a building could be a UCAREF00012241 1 2 3A 4Q 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 20 A 21 Q 22 23 24 25 _____ 12 5 system because it would be sucking some air out all the time? Yes. .- Is that what you are talking about "a system," or could you describe your system for air removal or 1 i i i ! i i iI i i dust removal in a different way? MR. SHIPLEY: Objection, repetitious. i You have asked it several times. I can't describe it much better than I have. The bag is in a compartment and the operator handles the bag with -- through rubber sleeves. That compartment is exhausted through dust collector systems to the atmosphere. You just create a vacuum in the area around the immediate packaging operation. All right. Then that is what I didn't understand. j ! l j l All right. Your employee is sitting outside some enclosed system and reaching through with sleeves? I Yes. And the area that he is reaching into, a vacuum has been created to lift the asbestos dust out? As well as the entire toom in which he is located is also under a negative pressure. All right. Is he looking through some kind of UCAREF00012242 p p p 4 P P P I 9 1 2A 3 4Q 5A 6Q 7A 80 9A 10 11 Q 12 A 13 14 15 Q 16 17 18 A 19 20 Q 21 A 22 Q 23 A 24 25 Q _________________________________________________________________________ 126 enclosed -- or glass or plastic? Parts of it. Parts of it are open, too, because i you have an air flow away from him into the system. But his face is protected by glass or something? Not necessarily, no. j J All right. Then what is the need for the gloves? In case of a bag bursting. That is the main reason, j f j All right. The dust levels that we monitor are usually well less than the TLV's. All right. But sometimes during the day, you might have a foul- up in a system. You have to be prepared for an : equipment failure or bag bursting. All right. There was something that protected him, between him and the bag, that he had to reach his i I hands through; is that right? Well, as I say, there was some openings that he could see through. All right. Not necessarily glass or plastic. All right. Because there was a negative pressure there. The dust can't come out. It has to go in. The negative pressures brought the air in through UCAREF00012243 1 2A 3Q 4 5A 6Q 127 the holes into the system and out? Yes. Okay. So that if there was dust inside the system, it couldn't come out because the air was coming in? Right. Okay. ; t i !i ! I I i 1 I 7A Now maybe we are getting someplace. J p 8Q All right. And then in addition to that, there was i J 9 also some protection in the event dust could get j 10 out somehow that exhausted it away from the p 11 employee? 12 A 13 No, there wasn't anything other than the entire room 'i is under a lower pressure than outside. j 14 Q All right. So that if the dust would tend to go 15 away from him - I p 16 A Yes. j j 17 Q All right. And then in addition to that, the things | 18 we have already mentioned, you had the vacuum system j t 19 that vacuumedup any spills orthings? j 20 A Yes. ! I 21 Q All right. 22 A Vacuum or washed down. 23 Q All right. i j 24 A Expensive wash-down facilities. 25 Q Would that same employee who wasreaching through I | UCAREF00012244 1 2A 3Q 4A 5 6 7Q 8 9A 10 11 12 Q 13 A 14 15 Q 16 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 23 24 Q 25 A the sleeves also have a respirator on? Yes . All right. Anyone in that general area is required to wear a respirator if they are there to work, rather than just to walk through. And has that been true ever since 1964 or five or six i when you first got there? Well, as I said, I assume there has been some semblance of that, but I was not there for the first three years. All right. And was not really -- I can't remember for sure, but the system has been improved over the years. When you first got there, was there a system like this? I could not swear to that. All right. I assume that there was something similar. All right. There was not a total enclosure that was under negative pressure. I can't remember when that was added. All right. But it was later. But the immediate protection UCAREF00012245 1 2Q 3A 4Q 5 6A 7Q 8 9A 10 Q 11 12 A 13 14 15 16 17 Q 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 around the bagging operation has been there. And that has been available in the '60s and `70s? To the best of ray knowledge. Did you study that sort of thing before you set up this system there to see what -- I did not set up the system. Okay. Someone else studied it and set up the system? It was done by the engineering group. All right. Okay. Do you all have plans of those someplace, of the system? I assume there are still plans, yes. (Whereupon, an off-the-record discussion was held.) Would you agree with me that if a manufacturer of i any product knows that it is dangerous, that he has a duty to pass that knowledge on to his customers so that they will have the sane knowledge that he does? MR. SHIPLEY: Objection, calls for speculation, calls for a legal conclusion, and it also calls for an improper response from this witness. I object to the form of the UCAREF00012246 1 2A 3Q 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 A 11 Q 12 13 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 20 A 21 Q 22 23 A 24 Q 25 __________ __________________ __________________________________________ 13 3 question. You can answer it. Okay. Would you repeat it? (By Mr. Latham) Would you agree with me that a i j i j manufacturer of any product who is aware that there are dangers related to that product, has a duty to pass his information on to the people who are buying it and using it, so that they will know the same as he does? MR. SHIPLEY: Same objection. to I would agree that would be a good practice, yes. (By Mr. Latham) Do you know what exposure limits you all did experience in the railroad cars and the trucks? No, I don't. Okay. Have you ever heard of Dr. Wagner? I am sure there are a lot of Wagners. Which one? Okay. Dr. Wagner that did a study on asbestos. NIOSH, Joe Waggoner? MR. SHIPLEY: The testifier. I know him by name. (By Mr. Latham) Have you ever read any reports by him? Yes, I am sure I have. Okay. MR. LATHAM: That's all the questions we UCAREF00012247 1 have. . 131 I ------------------------------------------------------------------- f | 2 MR. WELCH: I don't think I have any, I 3 Deacon. I don't have any. ! i 4 MR. HEDGES: I don't have any. j 5 6 7 8 EXAMINATION 9 BY MR. SHIPLEY: 10 11 Q I just want to ask you, the copies -- the exhibit 12 that we have gone through that we have referred to 13 as sales literature, or AIA documents, are those 14 true and correct copies of the documents that - 15 the type of documents that you would send to the 16 people that you were selling the products to? 17 A Well, some of them are sales type and some of then 18 are AIA. 19 Q All right. 20 A We wouldn't -- the salesliterature would not be 21 something we would send on an annual or periodic 22 23 Q 24 A 25 basis. All right. But is he -- If we wanted totry to get acustomer, him with the sales literature. we would hit UCAREF00012248 1Q 2 3A 4Q 5 6 7 8A 9 10 Q 11 A 12 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 17 A 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 132 The question was are they true and correct sales | documents, true and correct copies? j Yes. How would you, by looking at an invoice, determine whether a customer was buying it for tape joints or not? Is there any way you could discern that j I | ! : from an invoice? No. Except, for example, in this case, SG210 was used almost exclusively in tape jointcompound. All right. j i | j ! Not necessarily -- Iwould have to say no, you could not tell. Okay. Is SG210 a type of asbestos you all sold? Yes. And a higherpercentage of it was used for tape ; i | i joint compound? Yes. MR. SHIPLEY: There are several other questions, but we will reserve them until the j I j time of trial. MR. LATHAM: I just have one question. i I l l UCAREF00012249 t 133 RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. LATHAM: p 3 4Q The documents that you provided that are by the 5 AIA -- p 6A Yes. 7Q -- do you know whether or noteach andevery one i j p 8 of those documents actually went to your 9 customers? 10 A I would have to say yes, to the best of my t 11 knowledge. 12 Q Okay. 13 A It was certainly our intent to accomplish that. 14 Q All right. 15 A As I mentioned earlier,several of those are updated p 16 versions of one document. Through the years, they 17 would have probably received all of them. 18 p 19 MR. LATHAM: That's all the questions I have. 20 t 21 22 (Whereupon, at the hour of 6:35 p.m., the deposition was concluded.) 23 24 JOHN L. MYERS 25 UCAREF00012250 134 1 THE STATE OF X 2 COUNTY OF X 3 Subscribed and sworn to before me by the said 4 witness, JOHN L. MYERS, on this the _______ day of 5 , A.D. 1937. 6 7 8 Notary Public, The State of Texas 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 i UCAREF00012251 135 1 THE STATE OF 2 COUNTY OF 3 I, , a Notary 4 Public in and for the State of _________ , do 5 hereby certify that JOHN L. MYERS, the witness herein 6 before named, appeared before me and subscribed and 7 swore to the above and foregoing deposition; and, I 8 further certify that all changes, corrections or 9 interlineations appearing in pencil or ink were made by * 10 the said witness for the reason stated prior to signing 11 said deposition. 12 GIVEN UNDER MY OFFICIAL HAND AND SEAL OF 13 OFFICE, this, the _______ day of , 14 A.D. 1937. 15 16 17 18 Notary Public, The State of 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 T UCAREF00012252 1 THE STATE OF TEXAS I 2 COUNTY OF NUECES I 3 I, GENE CHATHAM, a Notary Public in and for the 4 State of Texas, do hereby certify that the facts stated 5 by me in the caption hereto are true; that the foregoing 6 deposition of JOHN L. MYERS, the witness hereinbefore 7 naned, was at the time named, taken by me in stenograph, 8 the said witness having been by me first duly cautioned i ! 9 and sworn upon his oath to tell the truth, the whole * 10 truth and nothing but the truth, and later transcribed j ! i 11 from stenograph to typewriting by Barbara Herod. 12 I further certify that the above and foregoing 13 deposition as set forthin typewriting is a full, true i i 14 and correct transcript of the proceedings had at the tine | 15 of taking saiddeposition. 16 WITNESS MY HAND, this, the _______ day of July, 17 A.D. 1997. i i i i | 18 19 20 GENE CHATHAM Notary Public, The State of Texas 21 22 COSTS : 23 (Due and Owing by the Plaintiffs) 24 25 UCAREF00012253