Document 44nxGYw86GNB0QyNoMXNjnqdj
FILE NAME: Phenolic Resins (PHR) DATE: 2004 July 14 DOC#: PHR026 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition of Marjorie A. Drucker, Vol. 2
1 SUPREME COURT OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK
ALL COUNTIES WITHIN NEW YORK CITY
2
3
In Re: NEW YORK CITY ASBESTOS LITIGATION
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5
VOL. II
6
7
Continued
8
Deposition Under
Oral Examination
9
O f MARJORIE DRUCKER
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PRIORITY-ONE COURT REPORTING SERVICES, INC.
899 Manor Road
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Staten Island, New York 10314
(718) 761-0527
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Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
Page 281
1 Transcript of the deposition of MARJORIE 2 DRUCKER, called for Oral Examination in the
1 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND 2 AGREED by and between the attorneys
3 above-captioned matter, said deposition being
3 for the respective parties hereto
4 taken pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil
4 that filing, sealing and
5 Procedure by and before,Victoria Rohl, Court
5 certification o f the within
6 Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State
6 Examination Before Trial be waived;
7 ofNew York; taken at the office of SIDLEY
7 that all objections, except as to
8 AUSTIN, BROWN & WOOD, Bank One Plaza, 10 South 8 form, are reserved to the time of
9 Dearborn Street, Chicago, Illinois 91356, on
9 trial.
10 July 14,2004, commencing at 10:00 a.m.
10 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND
11
11 AGREED that the transcript may be
12
12 signed before and Notary Public with
13
13 the same force and effect as if
14
14 signed before a Clerk or Judge of the
15
15 Court.
16
16 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND
17
17 AGREED that the within examination
18
18 may be utilized for all purposes as
19
19 provided by the CPLR.
20
20 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND
21
21 AGREED that all rights provided to
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22 all parties by the CPLR shall not be
23
23 deemed waived and the appropriate
24
24 sections of the CPLR shall be
25
25 controlling with respect thereto.
Page 283
APPEARANCES: JERRY KRISTAL, ESQ. WEITZ * LUXENBERG 180 Maiden Lane, 17th Floor New York, New York 10038-1925 Appearing for the Plaintiff DAVID SPEZIALI, ESQ. SPEZIALI, GREENWALD & HAWKINS 1081 Winslow Road P.O. Box 1086 Waiiamstown, New Jersey 08094 Appearing for die Defendant General Electric TIMOTHY KAPSHANDY, ESQ. SIDLEY, AUSTIN, BROWN & WOOD 10 Bank One Plaza 10 Sondi Dearborn Street Chicago, Illinois 91356 Appearing For the Defendant General Electric WILLIAM C. SILVERMAN, ESQ. GREENBERG TRAURIG, LLP 14 885 Third Avenue New York, New Yotk 10022 15 Appearing for die Defendant Robert A Keasbey Company
16 AMY E. McCRACKEN, ESQ.
17 DUANE MORRIS 227 West Monroe Street, Suite 3400
18 Chicago, Dlinois 60606 Appearing for die Defendants
19 Ford and Getmal Motors 20 LOUIS FLOCCO, ESQ.
WILBRAHAM, LAWLER & BUBA 21 1818 Market Street, Suite3100
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103-3631 22 Appearing telcphonically for the Defendant
Buffalo Pumps 23 24 25
Page 282
1 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND 2 AGREED by and between the attorneys 3 for the respective parties hereto 4 that a copy of the Examination shall 5 be furnished, without charge, to the 6 attorney representing the witness 7 testifying herein.
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9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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2 (Pages 281 to 284)
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1
MR. FLOCCO: Obviously I represent
1 A. Good. How are you?
J
2 Buffalo Pumps. We did not receive notice of the
2 Q. Nice to see you again.
?
3 first day of this deposition of Ms. Drucker, and
3 A. Nice to see you.
i
4 I would simply like to reserve my client's
4 Q. I want to do a little bit of
5 rights to any objections that we may have had to
5 housekeeping first. I've marked as Exhibit 8
;
6 that testimony after we have a chance to take a
6 what we call notice to take deposition which is
7 look at it. And my attendance by telephone
7 just informing folks that we're going to be
8 today cannot be construed as a waiver of any of
8 taking your deposition. This is from the
9 the rights my client may have in that regard.
9 original dep which is June --the deposition
10 Thank you.
10 date was June 3rd, 2004.
11
MR. KRISTAL: Right. And I don't want
11
And in that deposition, you had been
:
12 my silence to mean that I am agreeing that you
12 designated by General Electric as an expert in
13 did or didn't have notice of the first day of
13 four cases, Campa, Renow, Zatz and Roth. And we
14 deposition, but your statement stands as it is
14 were taking your deposition at that time as a GE
15 and we'll move forward. Obviously you had
15 expert in those cases.
16 notice of today's dep, right?
16
Subsequent to that, we sent a notice
17
MR. FLOCCO: Yes.
17 dated June 23rd, 2004 which I've marked as
18
MS. McCRACKEN: I'd like to put on the
18 Drucker Exhibit 9. And in that deposition
19 record as well on behalf of Ford and GM, it's my
19 notice, we had requested General Electric to
20 understanding we did not have notice of the
20 designate a person most knowledgeable in two
21 first day either.
21 subjects; one being General Electric's
22
MR. KRISTAL: Right, and - okay. I
22 historical knowledge of the hazards of exposure
23 think ril probably be able to explain that a
23 to asbestos, and the second, General Electric's
24 little more clearly in a moment, if that's
24 historical use of asbestos. And that deposition
25 correct, as well. But are we ready.
25 was scheduled for July 1st of 2004.
Page 286
Page 288
1
(Whereupon, Drucker Exhibit 8, a
1
After GE received that notice, we were
2 deposition notice from June 3rd, 2004 of
2 informed that you are designated as that person.
3 Ms. Drucker, was then received and marked for
3 So you are here pursuant to Exhibit 9 as the
4 identification.)
4 General Electric designee to speak about the two
5
(Whereupon, Drucker Exhibit 9, a
6 deposition notice dated June 23rd, 2004, was
5 subjects that I just mentioned. Do you 6 understand that?
7 then received and marked for identification.)
8
(Whereupon, Drucker Exhibit 10, a
9 letter to all counsel which was sent out by one
10 of Weitz & Luxenberg's trial paralegals
11 notifying folks on the rider that GE was
12 designating Ms. Drucker as the most
13 knowledgeable person in the two subjects and
14 that the deposition was scheduled for July 14th
15 and July 15th, and not for July 1st, was then
7 A. Yes.
8
MR. SPEZIALI: Let me just make a
9 clarification. And I'm seeing -- maybe it's my
10 confusion, and whether it's my confusion or not,
11 it's irrelevant. That dep notice is for a group
12 of cases that go beyond Roth, Campo, Katz and
13 Renow. Did I get all four?
14
MR. KRISTAL: Roth, Campa, Zatz and
15 Renow. You're right, and let me put that on the
16 received and marked for identification.)
17
18 MARJORIE A. DRUCKER, Post Office Box 3515,
19 Manhattan Beach, California, 90266, after being
20 duly called and sworn, testified as follows:
21
22
EXAMINATION BY MR. KRISTAL:
23
24 Q. Ms. Drucker, as you know, I'm Jerry
25 Kristal. How are you?
16 record.
17
MR. SPEZIALI: Right.
18
MR. KRISTAL: Sure. The deposition
19 notice which is dated June 23rd, which is
20 Exhibit 9, and that was sent a couple of weeks
21 after the first day of your deposition as an
22 expert, was noticed in all cases in which
23 General Electric is a defendant in the November
24 2003 and May 2004 in extremis trial clusters.
25
Is that what you wanted on the record?
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
3 (Pages 285 to 288)
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1
MR. SPEZIALI: No.
1 don't think that impacts anything you do today.
2
MR. KRISTAL: Okay.
2 The room is full of documents. Probably
3
MR. SPEZIALI: Yeah, the first - in
3 anything you ask about 30(b)(6) in the four
4 the first dep, as far as I was aware, the only
4 cases will segue or spill over into the others
5 four cases that we were focused on, which means
5 anyway.
6 they may have been the only four that were left
6
I just want you to know that I may have
7 in the classes, were the four -- I'm going to
7 other 30(b)(6) witnesses on particular aspects
8 call them the shipyard cases so I don't have to
8 of some of these cases. I can't represent to
9 keep repeating. The four shipyard cases are
9 you that she is the appropriate only witness for
10 Roth, Katz, Renow and Campa, right?
10 all of them.
11
MR. KRISTAL: Yeah. You just misspoke.
11
MR. KRISTAL: Well, let me see if we
12 It's Zatz.
12 can work our way through this. We sent out a
:
13
MR. SPEZIALI: What did I say? Katz?
13 notice asking for GE to designate a spokesperson
14 It's Zatz. I can tell you that for purposes of
14 who were most knowledgeable in two subjects, and
15 today's notice, she continues, of course, to be
15 that was noticed in the in extremis trial cases
16 an expert in those four cases, and we are
16 in which GE is a defendant for the November 2003
17 producing her as our 30(b)(6) witness for those
17 and November (sic) 2004 clusters.
18 four cases.
18
Regardless of the details o f any
19
It is absolutely true that there are
19 specific case, the generic subject matters are
20 now other cases that are covered by this notice,
20 the same in all cases; GE's knowledge of the
21 but I have to tell you, and it's indicative of
21 hazards of exposure to asbestos historically and
22 the unfairness of these clusters, I don't know
22 GE's historical use of asbestos generally.
23 anything about those other cases. I can tell 24 you she hasn't seen these cases. I'm not 25 telling you she would not be our 30(b)(6)
23
So I don't understand what you say when
24 you have somebody who may be in a particular
25 case on a particular subject a different
Page 290
1 witness in those cases. She has no information 2 or detail in those cases. She does know the 3 four cases; shipyard cases. She's looked at
4 those.
5
And there may be a nuance --and I
6 guess I'm concerned that there would be an
7 allegation that we've done something improper in
8 terms of the witness. My point is this: There
9 may be nuances in these cases that she is
10 totally not the right witness for. I don't know
11 what they are. I don't know if there's a case 12 here - off the record before we started today I
13 was mentioning to somebody that there was a case
14 we were sued in that, for the life of me, I
15 can't figure out why we would be sued.
16
There may be a case here that has
17 allegations that she's just not the right
18 witness for, and I don't know that. So that's
19 my way of saying to you I am going to reserve a
20 right to have a different 30(b)(6) witness as we
21 get down to the nitty-gritty of some of those
22 other cases.
23
And a lot of these may be dismissed and
24 it won't matter. In fact, I think we might have
25 been dismissed in a few of these already. So I
Page 292
1 30(b)(6) witness. Ms. Drucker is the most
2 knowledgeable person on those two subjects as
3 the GE designee. If there are any other
;
4 subjects that arise in these cases, either
:
5 the ones that Ms. Drucker's been also designated
6 as an expert for the other GE cases, you might
7 designate somebody else most knowledgeable in a
8 different subject, but Ms. Drucker is here on
9 two subjects generically for GE. That's why I'm
10 a little bit confused, but we can move forward.
11
MR. SPEZIALI: That's exactly my point.
:
12 There may be other people that I need to add. I
13 don't know what your allegations in some of
14 these cases are. You may have a - I'm not
15 going to repeat the introductory statement or
16 interrogatory answers, but we're a big, diverse
17 company.
18
There may be product lines that neither
19 she nor GE were thinking about that you stumbled
20 across a 1930 document that you got off of eBay
'21 that we found out that we made that product line
22 too that she knows nothing about. I may have to
23 get some other witness for those. That's not
24 going to change the fact that GE has general
25 knowledge. I'm just saying we may have to
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1 supplement on the 30(b)(6) as these cases go
1
2 forward.
2
3
MR. KRISTAL: If you want to add
3
4 somebody else in addition to her, we'll deal
4
5 with it at the time that you have to do that.
5
6 I'm not sure that will come to pass.
6
7 BY MR. KRISTAL:
7
8
Q. Exhibit 10 is a letter to all counsel
8
9 which was sent out by one of Weitz & Luxenberg's 9
10 trial paralegals notifying folks on the rider
10
11 that GE was designating Ms. Drucker as the most 11
12 knowledgeable person in the two subjects and
12
13 that the deposition was scheduled for today and 13
14 tomorrow, if necessary, and not for July 1st.
14
15 So I just want to put that on the record as
15
16 Exhibit 10.
16
17
There was also an agreement to
17
18 incorporate the June 3rd expert witness
18
19 deposition into this so that it's kind of one
19
20 continuing deposition. I think it will be
20
21 fairly easy to separate out Ms. Drucker's hats
21
22 in terms of whether she's testifying as an
22
23 expert or a GE spokesman in the - spokesperson, 23
24 sorry, in the two subjects that we mentioned.
24
25
Now, do you understand that? I know
25
Page 295 \
subject matters, I will let you know so maybe it i
will help you refocus your answers perhaps.
i
A. Thank you.
MR. KAPSHANDY: For the record, if you ;
can tell her and us whether you're asking her
\
personally or as an expert. We'll otherwise
1
presume you're asking her as a GE
j
representative. Is that fair?
;
MR. KRISTAL: That is fair. And as I
1
said, it will probably take most of the day, if
^
not all of the day today, to get through the GE
l
hat. All right.
Having said that, are you ready to
*
begin?
i
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR. KRISTAL: Okay.
)
MR. SPEZIALI: Can I give you -- we
;
brought four other exhibits. I can tell you now ;
or a different time. Before you start, we
have--in the room are the boxes of exhibits
f
that have been sent to Plaintiffs' counsel, that
*
hopefully he had a chance to look at some of
them.
i
What I did is I brought with me the
:
following which will be added to the exhibit
j
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1 it's -- this is a lot of business, legalese,
1 list. I brought the -- what is Betts Exhibit 10
2 that you're wearing two hats in some of these 3 cases; wearing both hats in the same case, one 4 is as an expert witness, and the other is as a
2 which is the February 19th, 1943 New York Navy j
3 Yard medical division memorandum from Goldwater;
4 I brought an unedited version of the Flescher
i
5 GE spokesperson. Do you understand the two hats 5 Drinker report.
;
6 sort of?
6
I have - we have -- also will be
i
7
A. Yes.
7 adding the July 5th, 1955 Industrial Health
f
8
Q. Okay. Most of my questions last time
8 Program from the Navy Civilian Personnel
i
9 related to your designation as an expert witness
9 Instructions Manual; January 7th, 1958
s
10 because you hadn't been designated as a GE
10 Department of Navy safety handbook for pipe
j
11 spokesperson at that time, but there's an
11 fitters; also from the Betts and Cushing
12 agreement if there are some questions that
12 depositions, February 19th, 1959 New York Navy
13 relate to the two subject matters for which you
13 Shipyard, Brooklyn, High Temperature Pipe
;
14 are now the spokesperson, that we're going to
14 Insulation Form, the minutes from that meeting.
;
15 incorporate that into this deposition. Do you
16 understand that?
17
A. Yes.
18
Q. Most, if not all, of my questions today
19 are going to relate to your role as a GE
20 spokesperson with respect to GE historical
21 knowledge of the hazards of asbestos and GE's
22 historical use of asbestos. Do you understand
23 that?
24
A. Yes.
25
Q. Okay. So if we kind of get into other
15
And it was a - 1think it was just a
16 copying issue, and I don't have the number in
17 front of me, but on the GE exhibit list is the
18 June 20th, 1986 preamble to the OSHA
19 regulations. For some reason, only a couple
20 pages printed on that. So we have the entire
21 preamble here that will be imaged on to the
22 disc. It was just a mistake but I brought it
23 anyway. So these are the additions, most of
24 which I think you've already seen in other --
25
MR. KRISTAL: Other lifetimes.
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1
MR. SPEZIALI: Well, actually in some
1
A. Yes, they do.
2 deps that you were at last week, I think.
2
Q. And have had them all over the US since
3
MR. KRISTAL: To the extent that I
3 certainly the 1920s?
4 understand what these documents are, and I
4
A. Yes, I would say so.
5 certainly am familiar with some of them, they
5
Q. I want to talk to you about products
6 relate more to your hat as an expert witness.
6 that General Electric produced that either
:
7 They don't relate directly to GE and its
7 contained components made out of asbestos or
8 knowledge or GE and its use of asbestos, so it's
8 products that were themselves made with asbestos
9 highly unlikely I'm going to be asking about
9 and GE's use of asbestos in some of those
10 these today.
10 products.
11
But when you put on the other hat, that
11
(Whereupon, Drucker Exhibit 11, a
12 may be incorrect, but since I haven't had a
12 broad-brush summary of various asbestos air
-
13 chance to really look at them, it's highly
13 sampling that had been done over the years in
14 unlikely that I'll be asking you about them
14 various locations at GE where asbestos was used
15 today. Anything else?
15 or asbestos was used in the production of GE
16
MR. SPEZIALI: I'll think of something.
16 products, was then received and marked for
17 BY MR. KRISTAL:
17 identification.)
18
Q. Could you tell me when the General
19 Electric Corporation was incorporated?
18 BY MR. KRISTAL:
19
Q. So I'm going to mark as Exhibit 11 -
20
A. GE was incorporated in the early 1890s.
20 it's a three-page index which was part of the
21
Q. Okay. And in what state was it
21 documents that have been supplied to me with
2 2 incorporated, if you know?
22 respect to documents that you have reviewed.
23
A. I don't recall.
24
Q. Okay. Do you know where GE's
25 headquarters, corporate headquarters have been
23 And I believe if I'm understanding this 24 three-page summary, this is sort of a 25 broad-brush summary of various asbestos air
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1 historically?
1 sampling that had been done over the years in
2
A. I'd say historically -- I'd say from
2 various locations at GE where asbestos was used
3 the 1950s forward for a great length of time
3 or asbestos was used in the production of GE
,
4 they were headquartered in New York City, and
4 products. Is that a fair statement?
5 then in the late 1970s they moved to Fairfield,
5
A. Yeah. I don't know what you mean by
6 Connecticut.
6 broad brush. This is a summary of the
7
Q. Okay. Prior to the 1950s, do you know
7 industrial hygiene air sampling that was
8 where corporate headquarters were?
8 conducted throughout GE facilities for the
9
A. As I recall, they were also in New York
9 period 1950s through 1990s.
10 City for a long period of time because I recall
10
Q. Okay. I guess what I meant by broad
:
11 seeing correspondence to the then president in
11 brush is we have not all that much level of
12 New York City.
12 detail of the results but we have some kind of
13
Q. Right. And if I understand what you're
13 tabulation or summary of those results. Is that
14 saying, Gerald Swope, S-W-O-P-E, was GE
14 fair?
15 president from the 1920s to around 1940 or so? 15
A. Yes, that's based on the industrial
16
A. That's correct, from the early '20s to
16 hygiene surveys that are in the files in this
17 the early '40s, and he came back for a period of 17 room.
18 time during the war and then he retired again.
18
Q. Right. I have those, but for purposes
19
Q. Mr. Swope's offices, as president of
19 of what I want to do now, I'm just going to ask
2 0 the General Electric Company, were in New York 20 you about the various products rather than the
21 City, right?
21 details of the air sampling. Okay?
22
A. Yes.
22
A. Sure.
23
Q. And General Electric has facilities,
23
Q. Okay. And just so the jury
24 whether they are manufacturing plants or service 24 understands, what GE did historically at
25 plants, all over the US?
25 different locations throughout the country where
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1 they were using asbestos products or asbestos 2 products were being used in the production of
1 by other manufacturers and having had to be
;
2 worked in some manner so that asbestos samples i
3 their other pieces o f equipment, would take
3 were taken.
?
4 periodic air sampling to measure the amount of
4
Q. So GE people would take an arc chute
5 asbestos in the air.
5 that contained asbestos and drill it or cut it
i
6
A. Yes. As part o f their ongoing
6 or manipulate it in some way and air samples
?
7 industrial hygiene monitoring to protect their
7 were taken. Is that an example of what you're
i
8 employees they took periodic monitoring. Some 8 talking about?
9 of these samples reflect other monitoring, as
9
A. Yes, that's an example, yes.
;
10 well, those conducted by state governments, and 10
Q. The next item down with respect to
^
11 those were incorporated here, too.
11 products at GE, brakes, B-R-A-K-E-S, use and ;
12
Q. Okay. Regardless of who took the
12 then brakes and production. Do you see that?
s
13 samples, whether it was GE internal people or
13
A. Yes.
;
14 some outside agency, the monitoring was done in 14
Q. So air samples were taken at GE
5
15 areas where asbestos products were used on
15 facilities over the years where asbestos was
16 products or used in the production of products
16 used in brakes and where brakes or brake
;
17 at General Electric?
17 components were produced by GE?
?
18
A. Yeah. They might have been, right,
18
A. Well, there were no samples actually -- 3
19 components used as part of GE products that were 19 you can see from the lower portion of the
i
20 not themselves asbestos products.
20 chart - on brake production because they didn't |
21
Q. Right.
22
A. But they were just used in association
21 make the brakes, but yes, on brake use there 22 were samples taken while they were used in GE 5
23 with certain limited applications, yes.
24
Q. For example, on the second page of
25 Exhibit 11, it has product dash use and
23 facilities.
1
24
Q. Okay. And then the next one down there ;
25 were asbestos-containing gaskets that were used
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1 production, and then it has a list. And the
1 by GE over the years.
;
2 first one is arc, A-R-C, chutes, C-H-U-T-E-S,
2
A. Yes, there were, and there were samples
3 switch gear and control panels, and then it has
3 taken on gasket use.
i
4 dash use, and then it has, the next column down, 4
Q. Okay. Now, when it says gasket
)
5 arc chutes, switch gear and control panels
5 production, and there's no samples next to it,
6 production. Do you see that?
6 does that mean to you that asbestos-containing i
7
A. Yes.
7 gaskets were not produced by GE, or does it mean '
8
Q. And if I'm understanding this, there
8 that there were no air samples taken where
9 were samples taken at various GE locations over 9 asbestos-containing gaskets were produced?
:
10 the years where GE was using arc chutes, switch 10
A. Yeah, it's my understanding that they
3
11 gear and control panels that contained asbestos? 11 were not produced by GE.
12
A. Yes. Generally they were made by
12
Q. And you got that understanding from
13 others, and they were just using them on their
13 speaking to folks at GE?
14 premises, and yes, they were testing that.
14
A. Yes. I spoke to many people throughout
15
Q. Okay. But then the second one is arc
15 GE and who had been with GE. I also read
16 chutes, switch gear and control panels
16 answers to interrogatories, and that's what led
17 production.
18
A. Uh-huh.
19
Q. And those would be air samples that
17 me to that.
18
Q. Okay. The next one, it's an
19 abbreviation that's supposed to mean general
20 were taken at GE facilities where those products 20 use?
21 containing asbestos were produced by GE?
21
A. G-E-N-A-L?
22
A. Generally I would say that those relate
23 to, to certain operations that may have been on
24 products purchased by -- from other
22
Q. Right.
23
A. Yes. Genal actually was a product that
24 was made by GE. It's -- that's the product
25 manufacturers such as arc chutes being produced 25 name, Genal, and that --we talked about that
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1 briefly at the last deposition. That's a
parts of asbestos materials, yes. And I'm
2 phenolic polymer that was made by GE for a
sorry, the second part of your question --
3 period of time from the 1920s to 1972.
Q. Involved the use -- when those
4
Q. Okay. So Genal, G-E-N-A-L, was a
4 asbestos-containing products were used with
5 product where, in its production at certain
5 respect to the motors and generators GE also
6 General Electric facilities, GE would purchase
6 took air samples at the GE facilities where that
7 asbestos fiber and mix it with other raw
7 was done?
8 ingredients to make a product call Genal?
8
A. Yes, generally. The use in motors and
9
A. Yes. They mixed certain phenolic
9 generators is broad sweeping, actually. It
10 materials with asbestos in some of the Genal.
0 incorporates some of use and also certain -
1 Not all Genal contains asbestos, but that those
1 some of the dismantling of certain types of
2 that did were included here obviously for the
2 applications for former asbestos-containing
13 asbestos testing.
3 materials in motors and generators. That's a
4
Q. Okay. So here there was Genal use and
4 broad category here that I put under use.
5 there were air samples done, correct -
5
Q. Okay. Rail car use. So at times GE,
6
A. Yes.
7
Q. -- over the years, and then Genal
8 production which is where GE was actually
6 in its servicing of rail cars, would be using
7 asbestos-containing products?
8
A. I don't know about servicing, but
9 producing this product?
20
A. Yes, that's correct.
9 possibly in, in some sort of allied need. The 20 rail car again is not an asbestos product; that
21
Q. Okay. And then there were tests where
21 it may have used certain materials that did
22 asbestos-containing products were used on jet
22 contain asbestos in certain small amounts.
23 engines that GE had built. Is that right?
24 Where it says je t engines use.
25
A. Right. The jet engine itself obviously
23
Q. And GE, in some facility or more than
24 some facilities, were using asbestosproducts on
25 rail cars, right, because we have some sampling
Page 306
Page 308
1 is not an asbestos product but that it used 2 certain types of asbestos-containing parts that
1 there, right?
2
A. Yeah, I don't know how many. I'd have
3 were made by others incorporated into this.
3 to actually look at the studies done on that,
4
Q. Okay. And then the next one down where 4 but we do have some samples. We have six
5 there's air sampling is locomotives production,
6 and General Electric over the years produced
7 locomotives and used asbestos-containing
8 products in the production of the locomotives.
9 Is that fair to say?
10
A. Yeah. It's my understanding that--
5 samples total relating to rail car, and they're
6 all a hundred percent in compliance.
7
Q. And then Textolite, T-E-X-T-O-L-I-T-E,
8 use. That's a product that contained asbestos
9 that GE took air samples in some of the
10 facilities where that product was used?
11 obviously again, locomotives are not an asbestos 11
A. Yes, and made, and we talked about that
12 product - that it might have used certain types
12 at the last deposition also. That was a product
13 of materials that contained asbestos at various
13 made from the 1930s through 1973 when it was
14 points in time.
14 phased out. Not all Textolite contained
15
Q. The next products are motors and
15 asbestos. Less than five percent ever did, but
16 generators, and both use and production of
17 those. Do you see that?
18
A. Y es,Ido.
19
Q. And so that meansthat over the years
16 these are obviously - obviously we have very
17 few samples on that, those included here.
18
Q. Where do you get the information that
19 less than five percent of the Textolite products
20 GE both used asbestos-containing products that 20 contained asbestos?
21 were on or in motors and generators and produced 21
A. I think it was from a few sources. One
22 motors and generators in which asbestos products 22 was that some of these samples were taken by the
23 were in or on?
24
A. Over the years GE did some work that
23 State of Massachusetts when they went into the 24 plants, and they described that not all these
25 may have incorporated a production for certain
25 Textolite materials contained asbestos, that
8 (Pages 305 to 308)
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
Page 309
Page 311 :
1 there were other things that could have been
1 that answer, I'd have to look at the document,
2 used. And also from certain answers to
2 but in general I would say that a turbine is a
i
3 interrogatories, and also talking to people.
3 non-asbestos product, as well, but that there
;
4
Q. Did you talk to someone specifically
4 may have been some materials used in conjunction \
5 about what percent of Textolite product made by 5 with parts of the turbine made by others that,
i
6 GE contained asbestos over the years?
6 that contained asbestos, and those were tested. J
7
A. Not that I recall.
7
Q. Well, when you say some components that
8
Q. Now, GE did produce Textolite that
8 may have contained asbestos, there were lots of {
9 contained asbestos from the 1930s through
9 components in and on turbines that contained
10 whenever it was phased out in the '70s, correct? 10 asbestos, were there not?
i
11
A. Yes, they did.
11
MR. SPEZIALI: I object to the use of
;
12
Q. Now, there are no air samples during
12 the word "lots".
;
13 the production of Textolite, but the lack of air
13
THE WITNESS: I don't know what you
;
14 samples does not mean that GE did not produce 14 mean by lots. There were components made by
15 Textolite with asbestos, correct?
15 others that did contain asbestos at different
16
A. Right. It doesn't mean that they
16 periods of time, and it's my understanding as
17 didn't produce it. They --
17 well that that would depend on the specific type
18
Q. I'm sorry. Go ahead.
18 of turbine, the model, and I need to know more :
19
A. Yeah. As I said before, they did
19 specific information to really fully answer your J
20 produce Textolite from the '30s to 1973.
20 question accurately.
i;
21
Q. But the absence of air sampling does
21
MR. KRISTAL: We'll go over in a few
5
22 not mean that GE did not produce
22 minutes in more detail all of the
;
23 asbestos-containing Textolite, right?
23 asbestos-containing parts that went in and on
24
A. Yes. If what you're saying, if I'm
24 turbines.
5
25 understanding correctly, is that because we
25
MR. KAPSHANDY: We're running afoul. i
Page 310
Page 312
1 don't have samples it doesn't mean they didn't
1 We were discussing before we started that that's ^
2 produce it, yes.
2 an area where we have designated other 30(b)(6)
3
Q. Precisely.
3 witnesses who will talk about the historical use
4
A. Yes.
4 of asbestos in those particular products. As
J
5
Q. Then there's transformers use and
6 transformers production. So GE both used
7 asbestos-containing products with transformers
8 and produced transformers which contained
9 asbestos-containing components or parts or
10 insulation perhaps, right?
11
A. Well, I don't know about production.
12 Yes, I'm sorry. Pardon me. We're looking at
5 you know, we can designate more than one
j
6 witness. We don't want to suggest that she is a
7 witness for turbines, and I think you know that.
8
MR. KRISTAL: I don't know that, and
9 I'll ask the questions and we'll deal with it.
10
MR. KAPSHANDY: I think they had been ;
11 already. Just so we're clear, she is not the
12 person for historical use of asbestos in
13 transformers.
13 turbines. If you want to ask her about that,
14
Q. Right.
15
A. Yes. Again, the transformer is not an
16 asbestos product, but it might have been used in
17 certain products in discrete locations made by
14 she's already qualified --
15
MR. KRISTAL: I'm justgoingtobe
16 asking her about documents that you supplied to
17 me that Ms. Drucker supposedly reviewed.
18 others, and there were samples on that and also
19 for use.
20
Q. And then turbines, we have use and
21 turbines production. So there were --GE, in
22 using its turbines, would that be in servicing
23 turbines or repairing turbines would use
24 asbestos-containing products?
25
A. Well, again, to be totally focused on
18 BY MR. KRISTAL:
19
Q. Wire and cable use in production. GE
20 both manufactured wire and cable that contained
21 asbestos in it and used wire and cable that
22 contained asbestos?
23
A. Right. We mentioned that last time.
24 Wire and cable was made for a certain period of
25 time contained certain amounts of asbestos. And
9 (Pages 309 to 312)
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
Page 313
Page 315
1 as we mentioned before, not all wire and cable
1 exposure, an alleged last exposure of a given
2 made by GE contained asbestos. It was less than 2 Plaintiff, I'm going to have a standing
3 ten percent, until around the 1970s it was less
3 objection.
4 than five percent.
4
I don't want to waive any objections
5
Q. Where do you get those figures from?
5 that I might have to relevance or admissibility
6
A. I got those figures from speaking to a
6 which are impossible to determine because I
7 few people that had worked in wire and cable in 7 don't know what the facts in all the cases are
8 Lowell, and those were in a list that I believe
8 that we're here for today. So I just want to
9 was provided to you and it was called persons
9 note for the record a standing objection.
10 places contacted. So I got that information
10
I know you and I won't have a problem.
11 from at least one other, if not more than one,
11 I'm worried about some other lawyers getting
12 person.
12 imaginative and deciding suddenly that New York
13
Q. So one or more people whose names would 13 rules don't apply for the dep and California
14 be on the chronology summary that you have told 14 rules apply, and somebody in Illinois getting
15 me that about ten percent of the asbestos --
15 the same thing in her head.
16 strike that.
16
Just so the record is clear, we're
17
Ten percent o f the GE wire and cable
17 proceeding as a New York deposition, New York
18 had asbestos and then it was reduced in later
18 rules, and I'm going to make certain objections
19 years?
19 that I necessarily don't need to make under New
20
A. Right. Up to, right, the '70s about
20 York rules because of nuances and thus
21 ten percent, and then it was reduced further,
21 litigation and how we know these transcripts
22 and that, as I mentioned before, was because it
22 tend to circulate elsewhere in the country.
23 was required by law in certain types of wire and 23
I'm not going to belabor or burden the
24 cable. And then as the NEC approved
24 record, and I know I wouldn't have a problem
25 non-asbestos-containing wire for the highest
25 with you on some of these objections, but that's
Page 314
Page 3)6
1 temperature wire and cable, then it was
1 why I'm doing it. So I'll let her look at the
2 eliminated in 1980.
3
Q. Move to strike the non-responsive
4 portion of that answer.
5
Let me mark as Exhibit 12 a document
6 dated April 30th, 1970. And it's from a
2 document.
3
MR. KRISTAL: This document, in the
4 third paragraph, references production by GE of
5 a product that contained asbestos, right?
6
MR. SPEZIALI: Is this from the
7 Dr. Brugsch, B-R-U-G-S-C-H, to a Dr. Elkins, and 7 exhibits that we gave you?
8 it relates to a visit to the GE plant at Lowell,
8
MR. KRISTAL: Yes.
9 Massachusetts of April 22nd, 1970. Do you see 9
MR. SPEZIALI: Do you know the GE
10 that?
10 exhibit number on this?
11
A. I do.
11
MR. KRISTAL: W ell-
12
(Whereupon, Drucker Exhibit 12, a
12
MR. SPEZIALI: The only reason I ask
13 document dated April 30th, 1970 from Dr. Brugsch 13 that is for quick reference.
14 to Dr. Elkins, relating to a visit to the GE
14
MR. KRISTAL: I didn't know there were
15 plant at Lowell, Massachusetts of April 22nd,
15 GE exhibit numbers. There may have been numbers
16 1970, was then received and marked for
16 on the disc, but --
17 identification.)
17
MR. SPEZIALI: That's the one, right,
18
MR. SPEZIALI: We're going to look at
18 that's on the disc?
19 this. Jerry, let me mention one other thing for
19
MR. KAPSHANDY: Right. This looks to
20 the record.
20 be from the wire cable production IH file. I
21
To the extent -- and again, this is
21 could be wrong. Maybe the witness can tell us.
22 noticed for a large group of cases and only four 22 BY MR. KRISTAL:
23 of which I am readily familiar with the facts
23
Q. The third paragraph talks about a total
24 which are the shipyard cases. To the extent
24 of forty machines used for carding and
25 that a document postdates a period of last
25 processing asbestos felt. Do you see that?
10 (Pages 313 to 316)
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
Page 317
1
A. Y es,Ido.
1
2
Q. And that was in the production of wire
2
3 and cable. Is that your understanding? If you
3
4 look on the next page it may help.
4
5
A. I was looking at the location. Yes,
5
6 they were making wire and cable at this Lowell
6
7 plant for a period of time.
7
8
Q. Well, certainly going back to the
8
9 1930s, right?
9
10
A. As I recall it was about going back to,
10
11 yeah, that point in time.
11
12
Q. What they're discussing here is looking
12
13 at an area where asbestos is being handled in
13
14 making the felt to put on the wire and cable.
14
15 Is that fair to say?
15
16
MR. SPEZIALI: Just object. The
16
17 document speaks for itself.
17
18
THE WITNESS: They were discussing
18
19 certain of the processes, and asbestos felt
19
20 was -- is mentioned that it was being processed. 20
21 One thing.
21
22 BY MR. KRISTAL:
22
23
Q. On the next page, number two, it read,
23
24 quote, the twenty employees who are assigned in 24
25 an adjacent area where mainly cotton is used for 25
Page 319 '
A. This is a document that was offered by
;
GE. They had requested information from the 5
state governments, and this is something that
;
was done by the State of Massachusetts.
i
Q. And this report was presented to
i
Dr. Elkins who was in the medical department at i
the GE Lowell plant?
A. No. Dr. Elkins was the head of the
same program. In fact, I knew him. He was one j
o f the guest lecturers who frequently spoke at
the Harvard School of Public Health. So
;
Dr. Elkins was the head of the state program,
and this was an internal memorandum from his J
people who go around and do the surveys for
Dr. Elkins.
Q. This you got from GE?
A. This GE got from the state.
Q. Right.
A. In fact, I don't know if this was ever
delivered to GE, actually. This could have been
an internal memorandum.
;
Q. Well, GE was certainly aware that this
inspection was going on because their plant
nurses and unit managers - GE's plant nurse and
unit manager were interviewed for the visit,
Page 318
Page 320
1 producing electrical cord and where considerable 1 correct?
2 amounts of dust were also noted on the floor
2
A. Yes. They appear to have been
3 should also be given chest x-ray examinations on 3 interviewed, correct.
4 full-size film at regular intervals, unquote.
4
MR. SPEZIALI: Just for the record, we
5 Do you see that?
6
A. Yes, that's what it says. You read
5 would - to the extent that this document were 6 used or the transcript were read, we're going to
7 that correctly.
7 ask that Exhibit 12 be attached to the
8
Q. So there was a group of twenty
9 employees who were using cotton to produce a
10 coating for electrical cord, and they were
11 adjacent to folks who were using asbestos in the
12 same general process. Is that your
13 understanding?
14
A. That's what it appears to say in this
15 report.
16
Q. Okay. And then towards the second
17 paragraph it says, in view of the tendency of
18 asbestos workers to malignancies, closer
19 supervision of the exposed workers is indicated.
8 transcript --
9
MR. KRISTAL: Sure.
10
MR. SPEZIALI: -- for completeness
11 purposes if it were read -- rather than
12 burdening the record now, I would read the
13 entire letter into the record at this point,
14 but--
15
MR. KRISTAL: You don't have the right
16 to read the entire letter into the record at
17 this point. The document has been identified.
18 The document has been marked. At the end when
19 you have a chance to ask questions, you can read
20 And that sentence should be in quotes. Do you
21 see that?
22
A. I see that you read that sentence
20 and ask anything you want.
21
MR. SPEZIALI: Let me just say, Jerry,
22 for the record again, you and I would never have
23 correctly.
24
Q. Well, this was a document that was
25 prepared by GE?
23 problems with this, but I do have a right to 24 read it to the extent that any imaginative
25 plaintiffs attorney, whether in New York or
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
11 (Pages 317 to 320)
Page 321
Page 323
1 elsewhere in the country, is going to decide
1 on the fiber.
2 that suddenly this is trial testimony and is
2
Q. I move to strike the non-responsive
3 going to try to read the transcript.
3 portions of that answer.
4
If that were the case, which I will
5 suspect somebody will attempt to do, I would
4
And according to this memo, the mixture
5 of the heater cord asbestos covering was
6 have a right to interject for completeness
6 eighty-five to ninety-five percent asbestos, and
7 purposes in the record.
7 five to fifteen percent cotton was used in the
8
In lieu of burdening the record with
8 manufacture of heater cords; is that correct?
9 that, we'll attach it to the transcript. If
9
A. That's what this says, yes, you're
10 somebody were to try to do it, hopefully whoever 10 reading that first sentence in the first second
11 counsel for GE is at this point will, based on
11 paragraph correctly.
12 the statements, read the entire letter at that
12
Q. You don't disagree with that, do you?
13 juncture for completeness purposes.
13
A. I'll accept the document for what it
14
MR. KRISTAL: If it's being used
14 says.
15 potentially by us and marked into evidence and
15
Q. Okay.
16 anybody can read any portion of it.
16
MR. SPEZIALI: Again, we'd ask that the
17
MR. SPEZIALI: I agree you and I will
17 entire document be attached to the record. We
18 never have a problem.
18 would read in the results of the studies if we
`
19
MR. KRISTAL: I wouldn't go that far.
19 were sitting in a trial and somebody were trying
20
MR. SPEZIALI: At least on that case.
20 to read portions of the letter.
21
(Whereupon, Drucker Exhibit 13, a
21 BY MR. KRISTAL:
22 document dated July 16th, 1956 to Dr. Elkins
22
Q. I'm just asking you now about the
23 from Mr. Compony and Mr. Bavley, the subject 23 different products that contained asbestos that
24 being the Lowell, Massachusetts plant, was then 24 GE was manufacturing. I'm not talking about air
25 received and marked for identification.)
25 sampling now. Do you understand that? So we
Page 322
1 BY MR. KRISTAL:
1
2
Q. Exhibit 13 is dated July 16th, 1956,
2
3 and it is again to Dr. Elkins from a Mr. Compony 3
4 and Mr. Bavley, and the subject is the Lowell,
4
5 Massachusetts plant. Is that fair to say?
5
6
A. Yes.
6
7
Q. And they're talking about evaluating
7
8 dust conditions in the heater cord braiding and
8
9 K carding departments. Do you see that?
9
10
A. Yes.
10
11
Q. And what's your understanding of the K
11
12 carding department at GE, Lowell, Massachusetts 12
13 in 1956 in terms of their use of asbestos?
13
14
A. Well, I'd say that in general, what I
14
15 know from all the departments of GE, when they 15
16 used asbestos in the production of wire and
16
17 cable, that all tests conducted over the years
17
18 were within the applicable permissible exposure 18
19 limits at the time.
19
20
With regard to specifically the K
20
21 carding department in Lowell, I've seen the
21
22 indication --alphabetical indication such as K
22
23 and other alphabet letters of different carding
23
24 areas. I'm not sure what the K means. Carding 24
25 is where they were doing the carding operation
25
Page 324
have heater cord coverings, we have the wire and cable coverings. Those contained asbestos, and they - the coverings themselves were produced by GE, put onto the cords and the wire and cable that GE was manufacturing and selling. Is that fair to say?
A. No. What I'd say is that in this instance where you see this one memorandum dated from 1956, they do indicate that they are making certain - that they're using certain amounts of asbestos for certain aspects of heater cords.
It's my understanding that over the
years these kinds of products were not made anymore. Just because it says something happened in 1956, doesn't mean it happened for the full time that GE made wire and cable.
So to the extent that -- what I said was I accepted the document in 1956, that's what they came across. Yes. Was it like that in 1960? As far as I know, no. So things did change over time. I just want to put it in perspective and context so that if you come back later and say, well, up to 1980 they made this, they didn't.
Q. Well, you've been designated as the GE
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
12 (Pages 321 to 324)
Page 325
Page 327 |
1 person most knowledgeable in the GE historical
1 that date, the end of 1972, was phasing asbestos ;
2 use o f asbestos. Tell me, during what period of
2 out of the plastic compounds?
i
3 time did GE use asbestos in the manufacture of
3
THE WITNESS: Right, as we talked about i
4 wire and cable and in the manufacture of heater
4 before. It wasn't in all plastics; in some -
;
5 cords.
5 less than five percent of Textolite, and in some j
6
A. Well, as I said earlier, it's -- GE
6 of the Genal, and as of '72 it was phased out in ;
7 used chrysotile asbestos -- encapsulated
7 the Genal.
i
8 chrysotile in the manufacture of certain wire
8
MR. KRISTAL: And this is all things
;
9 and cable products from the 1930s through 1980. 9 that have been told to you either by people
10 And as I mentioned before, from the 1930s to the 10 you've interviewed or from GE's answers to
t
11 1970s that was less than ten percent of the
11 interrogatories?
j
12 types - total types of wire and cable that they
12
MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. Ifs in the
f
13 made. After 1970 it was less than five percent
13 documents.
s
14 of the total that they made.
14 BY MR. KRISTAL:
j
15
Q. Okay.
15
Q. The percentages?
;
16
A. And it was -- as far as the outer and
16
A. The percentages.
?
17 the braiding and heater cords, it's my
17
Q. When you say something was only five
;
18 understanding that products that used that were 18 percent of the product, so I don't have to keep
!
19 phased out in the '50s. So that that type of
19 on asking, your knowledge of that comes from {
20 braiding would not have applied after the '50s.
20 information you got from General Electric's
t
21
Q. So from the '30s to the '50s that would
21 answers to interrogatories or from speaking to
;j
22 apply?
22 somebody at General Electric?
?
23
A. Possibly in some products. It was --
23
A. As I said before, yes, in part from
;
24 it had very limited use.
24 answers to interrogatories, in part from
>
25
(Whereupon, Drucker Exhibit 14, a memo 25 speaking to people, and then also, as I
i
Page 326
Page 328 {
1 dated November 22nd, 1972 regarding a meeting 1 mentioned, that the state was in doing
2 between General Electric and Johns-Manville, was 2 monitoring in some of these plants, especially
3 then received and marked for identification.)
3 in Massachusetts where this plastics, that ifs
4
MR. KRISTAL: Okay. I move to strike
4 my understanding they're referring to the Genal ;
5 the non-responsive portion of the prior answer.
5 was made, and in the state reports themselves
:
6
Exhibit 14, which I'll hand you, is a
6 the state indicates that in certain inspections
7 memo dated November 22nd, 1972 regarding a
7 that, that asbestos was only used in certain
8 meeting between General Electric and 9 Johns-Manville. And it indicates as of that 10 date that GE was using asbestos, in the second
8 amounts of products, not in all products.
9
Q. But they don't give a percentage.
10
A. I'd have to look at the document itself
11 paragraph, to make plastic compounds. Do you 11 to be sure, but I mentioned that before some of
12 see that?
12 my knowledge comes from state reports
13
MR. SPEZIALI: Can I have that question
14 read back?
13 inspections and some of it from answers to 14 interrogatories and from speaking to people.
15
(Whereupon, the above-requested
16 question was then read by the reporter.)
17
MR. SPEZIALI: You sure you wanted to
18 ask it that way as of that date?
19
MR. KRISTAL: Fine.
15
And there were a lot of crosschecks in
16 all this. I had an opportunity to go from
17 document to document and refer from one to the
18 other. So there were crosschecks in doing this
19 type of study.
20
THE WITNESS: As of that date. Well,
20
Q. Okay. And if the percentages of the
21 we know that GE phased out the use of asbestos 21 plastic compounds that had asbestos are not in
22 in the plastic that we called -- we discussed
23 before as Genal in 1952. So they're saying that
24 they were phasing it out as of this date.
25
MR. KRISTAL: So GE, at least as of
22 your chronological notes --and you didn't get
23 it from somebody you interviewed? Is that fair
24 to say?
25
A. I'm sorry.
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
13 (Pages 325 to 328)
Page 329
Page 331 ;
1
Q. Sure. You have provided a
1
A. I spoke to some industrial hygienist
2 chronological list who you met with and who you 2 who indicated that in '72 GE had phased asbestos
3 spoke to, and you wrote notes from your longhand 3 out of plastics and was very happy with that
4 notes and typed them into an index, right?
4 decision. And so yes, I spoke to an industrial
5
A. Yes. I typed into that running list
5 hygienist about that in general.
6 that we talked about before.
6
Q. My question is, did you speak to anybody
7
Q. And then you threw your original notes
7 at GE regarding those departments referenced in
8 away?
8 this memo in terms of their decision to
9
A. Yes. Yes, I discarded them after I had
9 eliminate asbestos in the end of 1972 from those
10 put the information into the listing.
10 two products, plastic compounds and the
11
Q. So the information that's on the
11 insulating tapes based on the economic penalties
12 listing are complete records of your notes?
12 associated with the cleanup equipment?
13
A. Unless I recalled something in addition
13
A. That wasn't your question before. That
14 to that; if I remembered something from a
14 was entirely different. Which question --what
15 discussion that's not necessarily written down.
15 do you want?
16
Q. So you might have remembered something 16
Q. Okay. Well, I want to know if you
17 from a discussion that wasn't from your original 17 spoke to anybody about that sentence, that GE
18 notes, didn't make it onto your chronological
18 departments made their decisions based on the
19 notes but you remember now?
19 economic penalties associated with cleanup
20
A. It depends on what you might ask me.
20 equipment.
21
Q. I'm just asking.
21
A. Okay. If you're asking me now if in
22
A. It depends on what you might ask me.
22 these cases GE departments made their decisions
23 There might be something that I recall that
23 based on the economic penalties associated with
24 might not have gotten written down.
24 cleanup, all I know is that's what this person
25
Q. So now the memo, Exhibit 14, also
25 wrote in the letter.
Page 330
Page 332
1 references a group within GE with respect to
1
Q. Here's my question: Did you speak to
2 deciding as of November o f '72 to phase out
2 anybody about GE -- strike that.
3 asbestos insulating tapes. Do you see that?
3
Did you speak to anybody at GE, all of
4
A. Yes. It says here the IMD group has
4 the people you interviewed, about that decision
5 decided to phase it out of insulating tapes.
5 in terms of the "it" being based on economic
6
Q. Okay. Right. And the "it" refers to
6 penalties associated with the cleanup equipment?
7 asbestos?
7 That's my question. I just want to know if you
8
A. Yes.
8 spoke to anybody about that particular subject.
9
Q. Okay. So GE was manufacturing
9
A. You're limiting it to a few words.
10 insulating tapes which also contained asbestos
10
Q. I am limiting it because I'm asking the
11 for some period of time?
11 questions. I'm limiting my question to whether
12
A. That doesn't necessarily mean that to
12 or not you spoke to anybody at GE about the
13 me, that they might have been buying this and
13 decision to eliminate asbestos in plastic
14 they were just going to phase it out in the use
14 compounds and insulating tapes based on the
15 of insulating tapes. That's the way I look at
15 economic penalties associated with the cleanup
16 that.
16 equipment. That is my question.
17
Q. And the memo in both cases says, these
17
A. I'll answer it this way since you're
18 GE departments made their decisions based on the 18 asking it very specifically with regard to these
19 economic penalties associated with the cleanup 19 words: I don't recall having mentioned, quote,
20 equipment. And that sentence should be in
20 based on the economic penalties associated with
21 quotes. Do you see that?
21 cleanup equipment, end quote. I'd say in
22
A. Yes, that's the last sentence in the
22 general I certainly spoke to them about their
23 second paragraph.
23 use and their eventual discontinuance of
24
Q. Did you speak to anybody from GE who 24 asbestos.
25 you interviewed about that?
25
(Whereupon, Drucker Exhibit 15, a
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
14 (Pages 329 to 332)
Page 333
1 letter that encloses a state survey similar to
1
2 the ones we had seen with respect to the wire
2
3 and cable and the heater cords April 22nd, 1991, 3
4 the subject being the General Electric turbine
4
5 department at Fitchburg, and the date of the
5
6 survey was April 14th, 1971, was then received
6
7 and marked for identification.)
7
8 BY MR. KRISTAL:
8
9
Q. Okay. Exhibit 15 is dated April 26th,
9
10 1971, and the first page is a letter from Harvey
10
11 Elkins to Mr. Rhodes, R-H-O-D-E-S, who's the
11
12 plant manager of GE at Fitchburg,
12
13 F-I-T-C-H-B-U-R-G, Massachusetts. Do you see 13
14 that?
14
15
A. Yes.
15
16
Q. And the letter encloses a state survey
16
17 similar to the ones we had seen with respect to
17
18 the wire and cable and the heater cords, and the 18
19 survey is dated April 22nd, 1991, and the
19
20 subject is the General Electric turbine
20
21 department at Fitchburg, and the date of the
21
22 survey was April 14th, 1971. Do you see that?
22
23
A. Yes.
23
24
Q. So at least from this particular
24
25 document, Mr. Elkins or Dr. Elkins had furnished 25
Page 335 ;
A. Yes.
;
Q. Okay. And Mr. B was sixty-two years
:
old, and he was one o f the three employees
engaged in changing turbine filters and
preparing asbestos gaskets. That's what the
survey says, right?
;
A. Yes.
Q. And then the survey says, quote, this
;
operation is performed monthly for one or two
days and entails the use of number 450, 450,
asbestos cement as well as the cutting of
asbestos blocks, both obtained from
;
Johns-Manville, end quote. Do you see that?
A. Yes, you read that correctly.
Q. And so that would be an example - when
we looked at the original industrial hygiene
surveys where it says turbines use, these are
5
asbestos-containing products used by GE in the i
production of their turbines, right, in the
*
plant at Fitchburg?
?
A. Are you talking about the survey? Are
i
you talking about the air sampling data that we
went through before?
Q. Right. It says turbines use. So there
was use of asbestos-containing products with
j
Page 334
Page 336 ;
1 to the GE plant manager a copy of the survey
1 respect to turbines at GE?
2 that had been done in that plant, right?
2
A. Well, I'm not saying that that is
3
A. Yes.
3 exactly the same type of use as is described
4
Q. Okay. And the survey itself indicates
4 here in this particular memorandum.
5 that the plant manager, Mr. Rhodes, and two GE 5
Q. No, but this is an example of the use
6 plant nurses were also interviewed at the time
6 by GE of asbestos-containing products in
7 of the survey in April of 1971.
7 conjunction with their turbines.
8
A. Yes. Wait. T w o G E -
8
MR. KRISTAL: I really would appreciate
9
Q. Look on the next page. The survey says
9 if you wouldn't shake your head. It may be
i
10 persons interviewed, and it includes Mr. Rhodes, 10 unconscious --
11 the plant manager, and two GE plant nurses,
11
MR KAPSHANDY: You're confusing a
12 correct?
12 totally different set of documents. Industrial
:
13
A. Yes.
13 hygiene --
14
Q. Okay. And this deals with, in part,
15 the cutting of asbestos with a power saw, right?
14
MR. KRISTAL: All I'm asking is please
15 don't nod your head or shake your head in one
16
A. Yes, the cutting of asbestos blocks,
16 direction or the other. You're sitting right
17 yes.
18
Q. And if you look at the survey itself,
17 next to the witness. That's all I'm asking.
18
MR. KAPSHANDY: Counsel, your question
19 the next page, second paragraph, they're
19 is misleading in that this document is not even
20 speaking about a particular employee, and
20 referred to in something that you know is not in
21 because of privacy issues I don't feel
21 the summary of the industrial hygiene use and
22 particularly right in mentioning his name
22 data. You're confusing two different sets of
23 because there's a medical issue involved, so
23 documents and contents.
24 I'll call him Mr. B. William B. Do you know who 24
MR. KRISTAL: Let me say my comment had
25 I'm talking about?
25 nothing to do with confusion. My comment had to
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
15 (Pages 333 to 336)
Page 337
1 do with perhaps an unconscious shaking of your
1
2 head.
2
3 BY MR. KRISTAL:
3
4
Q. All I'm asking is this survey
4
5 references with -- the use of
5
6 asbestos-containing products in conjunction with 6
7 turbine production by GE. Is that fair?
7
8
A. Before you said that he shook his head.
8
9 I'm not looking in his direction.
9
10
Q. There is no question pending other
10
11 than --
11
12
A. I'm trying to answer the question. I
12
13 said before are you, are you trying to link this
13
14 up with the air industrial hygiene data from
14
15 before? These are two different sets of
15
16 circumstances completely. The industrial
16
17 hygiene data that we mentioned before is
17
18 different data -- obviously there is no data from 18
19 this. This is a qualitative study. It's
19
20 descriptive, and these were two entirely
20
21 different situations.
21
22
Q. Okay. Move to strike that answer.
22
23
Here's my question. This survey is an
23
24 example of the use by GE of asbestos-containing 24
25 products in the production of turbines at GE
25
Page 339
happened when his people went into this plant at that particular time.
Q. Move to strike the non-responsive portions of that answer.
GE had been manufacturing turbines from the turn of the 20th century; from the 1900s forward?
A. GE -- yes, in general they made turbines from, right, the 1900s forward.
Q. And those turbines had asbestos insulation that were used on them from that time forward?
MR. KAPSHANDY: Now, Counsel, here's where you have been tendered a 30(b)(6) witness on the use of asbestos in conjunction with turbines. This witness is not being designated on that subject. If you want to continue to waste your time asking her about that, it truly is a waste of time.
She is not GE's designee on the use of asbestos in marine steam turbines. She is not answering those questions on behalf of GE. You were tendered Mr. Hobson, and he is the designee on that subject.
MR. KRISTAL: I'm asking you in terms
Page 338
Page 340
1 plant in Fitchburg, Massachusetts. Is that fair
1 of being designated on the historical use by GE
2 to say?
2 of asbestos.
3
A. Well, I think what's fair to say is
3
MR. KAPSHANDY: In something other than
4 that at this particular point in time when the
4 marine steam turbines for which there has been
5 state went in, this is one descriptor of how
5 another designee?
6 asbestos was used in that plant. Whether that
6
MR. KRISTAL: That's not what GE said
7 extended to any other plants and points in time,
7 in its designation, and I'll ask my questions
8 I have no reason to believe that's the case. I
8 and we'll hash it out later.
9 know from this description here, you know, this
9
MR. KAPSHANDY: Which designation are
10 is, this is what was going on.
10 you referring to?
11
Q. Okay. And you have no reason to
11
MR. KRISTAL: The response to my notice
12 believe that similar operations were being
12 is what I'm referring to.
13 performed at Fitchburg in years prior to this,
13
At the time --
14 or you have no way one way or the other to know? 14
MR. KAPSHANDY: Where is that? I'm
15
A. Well, I know that the state was in over
15 sorry. I don't have it.
16 periods of years and had been in and out of all
16
MR. KRISTAL: It has been marked.
17 GE plants. I know that Dr. Elkins --who was
17
MR. KAPSHANDY: Provide it to me.
18 the head of the state program, I knew him
18
MR. KRISTAL: It was marked earlier.
19 personally - was on the TLV committee, and I
19
MR. KAPSHANDY: Thank you.
20 knew that -- we know that at this point in time
20
MR. KRISTAL: In any event -
21 this activity was going on in this particular
21
MR. KAPSHANDY: Counsel, 1don't see
22 plant.
22 any GE response. Could you tell me which
23
So I don't see Dr. Elkins shutting down
23 exhibit that is?
24 anything or saying anything other than some
24
MR. KRISTAL: What's that?
25 basic recommendations. So all I know is what
25
MR. KAPSHANDY: Which GE response
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
16 (Pages 337 to 340)
Page 341
Page 343 i
1 amongst these exhibits are you referring to?
1 all of the objections that you're now making at ;
2
MR. KRISTAL: The fact that Ms. Drucker 2 some other time, and if we need to get the
5
3 was designated.
3 special master on the phone, that's fine. Iwas
;
4
MR. KAPSHANDY: Let me speak again in 4 hoping to finish by the end of tomorrow. Let's
5 plain English. She is not, by virtue o f her
5 try to move on.
6 appearance, the designee as to use of GE
6 BY MR. KRISTAL:
7 asbestos in conjunction with the use of GE
7
Q. This document was a document that you j
8 marine steam turbines. That was David Hobson. 8 had read as part of your review of General
j
9 You had your opportunity with him many times, 9 Electric documents relating to asbestos use and i
10 and she's not here to answer questions about the 10 GE's knowledge of the hazards of asbestos. Is
11 use of asbestos in conjunction with GE
11 that fair to say?
12 documents.
12
A. Yes, I would say that it was gotten
i
13
Your attempt to use this document out
13 from the state so that they could show all the
#
14 of context which has to do with a totally
14 records from the state, who went in of the
5
15 separate subject about GE's knowledge in health 15 still-existing records, yes.
;
16 and safety practice is, is one thing, but don't
16
Q. Move to strike. You reviewed this
17 try to turn this into a reattempt to redo your
17 prior to today?
j
18 deposition of David Hobson on the subject of the 18
A. Yes.
;
19 use of asbestos in conjunction with GE's marine 19
Q. And it was provided to you by GE,
20 steam turbines. You had your chance on that.
20 correct?
\
21
MR. KRISTAL: I would appreciate it if
21
A. Most immediately, yes, I got this from
22 you would just object to the form of the
22 Mr. Kapshandy.
23 question or reserve any objections for later on,
23
Q. And you knew or you know that Mr. B had
24 but I hear what you're saying and I'll speak to
24 been diagnosed with asbestosis, is that fair to
;
25 David at a break as to your question about GE
25 say, from your review of GE documents?
j
Page 342
Page 344 :
1 designating Ms. Drucker.
1
MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. The document ;
2
In this particular instance there was a
2 speaks for itself.
3 concern that Mr. B had asbestosis, correct?
3
THE WITNESS: Well, as of this date I
:
4
MR. SPEZIALI: No. Objection. Jerry,
4 don't know whether that was the case. As of
5
5 that's not what the document says. Objection.
5 this date it appears that Mr. B was presented
i
6 That document speaks for itself.
6 because of a blood dyscrasia.
7
I was actually going to put it on when
7
MR. KRISTAL: Right. And then goes on
8 you were done because I thought you asked it in 8 to say at the time of his visits to the blood
9 an earlier question. The document speaks for
9 clinic it was found that he suffers from
?
10 itself. If it is deemed relevant because of
10 pulmonary disease of an undetermined type, end :
11 time frame, which we would object to in many
11 quote. Do you see that?
12 cases --if it's deemed relevant, which we
12
THE WITNESS: Yes.
13 object to relevance because it's a plant
14 situation versus an end-product use situation.
15
More importantly, that document does
16 not make a finding -- does not suggest in any
17 way that Mr. B has asbestosis, and it speaks for
18 itself. We'd ask if somebody were to put it
19 into evidence for those reasons or read portions
20 of the transcript, that the entire document be
21 read.
22
MR. KRISTAL: We're going to be here a
13
MR. KRISTAL: But you also reviewed,
14 did you not, what I'm marking as Exhibit 16?
15 This is a medical record dated April 15th, 1971
16 of Mr. B. you had reviewed which makes a
17 diagnosis on the second page, first paragraph of
18 asbestosis.
19
MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. The document
20 speaks for itself. Relevance grounds.
21
(Whereupon, Drucker Exhibit 16, a
22 medical record dated April 15th, 1971 of Mr. B.,
23 long time, and all I'm suggesting is if you keep
23 was then received and marked for
24 your objections to form, I would appreciate it.
24 identification.)
25 I will live with the consequences. You can make 25 BY MR. KRISTAL:
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
17 (Pages 341 to 344)
Page 345
Page 347 1
1
Q. Right First paragraph on the second
1
Q. And there was a concern expressed,
i
2 page says, quote, I feel that the clinical and
2 according to the memo, about insulation lagging :
3 laboratory data in association with his
3 which goes on the turbine, quote, as a wet mud
4 occupational exposure to asbestos is sufficient
4 is, of course, removed at the time of
5 to warrant the diagnosis of asbestosis, end
5 dismantling in a very dry, dusty state, end
6 quote.
6 quote. Do you see that?
7
A. Yes, you read that correctly.
7
MR. SPEZLALI: Objection. The document
8
Q. Okay. Now, in this survey Mr. B was
8 speaks for itself.
9 cutting asbestos block and using
9 BY MR. KRISTAL:
10 asbestos-containing cement in conjunction with 10
Q. Do you see that?
11 his work on the turbines, right?
11
A. Yes, you read that correctly.
12
A. As you said, the asbestos cement as
12
Q. Okay. So it's your understanding, is
13 well as the cutting of asbestos blocks, yes, he
13 it not, from reading this document that
14 was doing that as of this day.
14 asbestos-containing mud is put on GE turbines
15
Q. In conjunction with his work on the GE
15 and then at times in dismantling it, it has to
16 turbines in that turbine department?
16 be removed?
17
MR. SPEZLALI: Again, objection. The
17
A. It's my understanding that there is an
18 document speaks for itself.
18 expert who's really more geared to turbines, and
19
THE WITNESS: Again, as of this date,
19 there is a land turbine expert and a marine
20 but what we know is that if he was diagnosed in 20 turbine expert. The land turbine expert is Paul
21 '71, he was probably exposed years and years
21 Baniziewski, and the marine turbine expert is a
22 before; could have been twenty, thirty, forty
22 Mr. Hobson. So generally I would say that those
23 years before.
23 are the people who have the knowledge about this
24
So I don't know whether Mr. B was brand 24 kind of situation.
25 new to the plant and just happened to be there
25
Q. Well, you've reviewed documents with
Page 346
1 for a short period of time or what the situation
1
2 was. All I can go on is what literally is
2
3 written on this piece of paper. What his
3
4 history is, I don't know.
4
5
MR. KRISTAL: The next document is
5
6 Exhibit 17.
6
7
MR. KAPSHANDY: Can we put these aside? 7
8
MR. KRISTAL: I'm moving on to another
8
9 exhibit.
9
10
(Whereupon, Drucker Exhibit 17, a memo
10
11 from January 3rd, 1973, was then received and
11
12 marked for identification.)
12
13 BY MR. KRISTAL:
13
14
Q. This is a memo from January 3rd, 1973
14
15 which you also reviewed, correct, imparted to
15
16 you by the GE attorney?
16
17
A. Yes. I'm sorry, the question?
17
18
Q. This document was provided to you by
18
19 the GE attorneys and you have reviewed it before 19
20 today?
20
21
A. Yes.
21
22
Q. And it's a memo again about a meeting
22
23 between Johns-Manville and General Electric,
23
24 right?
24
25
A. Yes, that appears to be the case.
25
Page 348
respect to wire and cable, and you've reviewed documents with respect to a whole host of GE products that had asbestos, right?
A. I reviewed a whole host of documents,
yes. Q. And there were certainly people at GE
who you had to go to to find out about those products, correct?
A. Those products meaning which products
are you talking about? Q. Non-turbine, asbestos-containing
products, wire and cable, phenolic resins, those
types of products. A. Yes, I spoke to people. I read
reports. I reviewed a number of things, as we talked about before.
Q. What you're saying is you feel comfortable speaking about those products but you don't feel comfortable speaking about asbestos on turbines?
MR. SPEZLALI: Objection, objection to the question. It mischaracterizes what she
said, Jerry. MR. KRISTAL: Okay. THE WITNESS: It's my understanding
18 (Pages 345 to 348)
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
Page 349
1 that any type of possible asbestos use would
1
2 depend on a particular model, make, year,
2
3 whatever, and that there are people that you can
3
4 go to for answers to these things. There was a
4
5 land turbine expert and a marine turbine expert.
5
6 BY MR. KRISTAL:
6
7
Q. Well, there's also a wire and cable
7
8 expert. You've read GE interrogatories. There
8
9 are specific people at GE who have more
9
10 knowledge on the individual products than you, 10
11 right? You're aware of that?
11
12
A. Yeah, there are people who are there
12
13 that have more knowledge than I on certain
13
14 aspects of those kinds of products.
14
15
Q. Okay. Are you doubting that there was
15
16 asbestos-containing cement put on GE turbines
16
17 historically?
17
18
A. That's such a broad question. I'd say
18
19 that I -- anything was possible, but it would
19
20 depend really on a specific that you're asking,
20
21 and that's the kind of question that you should
21
22 go to either Mr. Baniziewski or Mr. Hobson.
22
23
Q. So let me ask you this: You don't know
23
24 one way or the other whether some GE turbines, 24
25 over the period of time from 1930 to let's say
25
Page 351
certainly direct you to Mr. Hobson. I said
before for the Navy we know that the Navy spec'd
out what they wanted. The Navy had applicators.
The insulators put whatever they wanted on their
own turbines.
:
Q. So you do know --
A. That I know.
Q. So you do know that GE turbines, over a
certain period of time, certain models had
asbestos-containing cement put on. You do know
that?
MR. KAPSHANDY: Are you asking her that
personally or as a representative of GE?
MR. KRISTAL: Personally or as an
expert or in her capacity at GE.
MR. KAPSHANDY: Out of fairness and for
the record, you said at the outset that you
would like her to state if there's any
confusion.
MR. KRISTAL: And I just said I'm
putting on her expert hat and her GE hat at this
point.
MR. KAPSHANDY: Let me ask you to break
them down if you can.
MR. KRISTAL: Sure.
Page 350
Page 352
1 1975, had asbestos-containing cement put on
1 BY MR. KRISTAL:
2 them?
2
Q. As an expert do you have an opinion as
3
A. Well, as I said to you, I think --in
3 to whether or not at any period of time GE
4 this regard, it's a possibility, but it would
4 had -- GE turbines at any period of time had
5 really depend on the application meaning the
5 asbestos-containing cement on them?
6 situation that the turbine --what it called
6
A. Well, I certainly -- as an expert and
7 for, what the customer wanted, what the customer 7 having worked for the Navy, I would say that I'm
8 spec'd out, obviously what the Navy - the Navy
8 familiar that the Navy would have used asbestos
9 situation, what the Navy wanted. The Navy
9 on its turbines at certain periods of time.
10 applied their own insulation, so I can't answer
10
Q. Have you asked anybody about GE
11 your question.
11 turbines in general and asbestos use in your
12
Q. You can't answer that question?
12 capacity as a GE spokesperson? Have you asked
13
A. I just answered the question. I said
13 anybody about that?
14 that there were -
14
A. As I sit here right now I don't recall
15
Q. Your answer to the question is you
15 having spoken to somebody in particular - with
16 can't answer the question?
16 the GE hat on now -- about GE's use of
17
A. You totally distorted what I just said.
17 insulation on turbines. That was my
18 Let's read it back.
18 understanding that there were turbine experts,
19
Q. You finished the answer with "I can't
19 Mr. Baniziewski, Mr. Hobson, who would answer
20 answer that question", and I'm just trying to
20 specifically for those types of situations.
21 understand. Are you saying you can't answer
21
Q. So you did not speak to one person at
22 that question?
22 GE in your capacity as informing yourself about
23
A. Well, actually, my answer was that
23 GE's historical use of asbestos in terms of
24 there were many aspects to answering your
24 trying to find out whether or not
25 question fully. And for marine turbines I would 25 asbestos-containing products were used on GE
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
19 (Pages 349 to 352)
Page 353
Page 355
1 turbines at any period of time? You didn't
1
A. As I recall, there was a person
2 speak to anybody about that?
2 mentioned in wire and cable.
3
MR. KAPSHANDY: I think she said no
3
Q. And that would include phenolic resins
4 because that was somebody else's job.
4 with asbestos?
5
MR. KRISTAL: That's what I'm trying to
5
A. For that I'd have to recheck the
6 find out.
6 answers to interrogatories.
7
MR. KAPSHANDY: Asked and answered. 7
Q. So why are you begging off the turbine
8
1HE WITNESS: Yes, as I said, it was my
8 questions but you're not begging off the wire
9 understanding that there were people who
9 and cable questions? You're aware that GE has
10 specialized, were experts in that, and that they
10 somebody that they claim is more knowledgeable
11 would direct it, and I have not spoken to
11 on wire and cable?
12 Mr. Baniziewski or Mr. Hobson.
12
MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. She
13
MR. KRISTAL: Is it your understanding
13 hasn't --
14 that GE has other, quote, experts, end quote, in
14
MR. KRISTAL: Just object to the form.
15 the other asbestos-containing products that it
15 She's very good at picking up your coaching, so
16 used or manufactured over the years? You've
16 just make an objection to form or let the
17 seen that in GE's answers to interrogatories,
17 question go.
18 haven't you?
18
MR. SPEZIALI: I'm not coaching.
19
THE WITNESS: As I said before, GE made 19
MR. KRISTAL: Well, then you can either
20 veiy few types of products that ever contained
2 0 say form objection if --
21 amounts of asbestos over periods of time. Other 21
MR. SPEZIALI: When you're using a
22 products were not asbestos products. They may 2 2 phrase like begging off, you're accusing us
23 have been used in conjunction with certain types 23 of obstruction.
24 of materials made by others, and for some of
24
MR. KRISTAL: So then object to the
25 those, yes, it's my understanding there are
25 form of the question.
Page 354
1 people who are designated as experts in those
1
2 particular types of products.
2
3
MR. KRISTAL: Move to strike the
3
4 non-responsive portion. What products are there 4
5 people designated as experts in those types of
5
6 products?
6
7
MR. SPEZIALI: Just, Jerry, so we don't
7
8 get our phrases mixed up here, when we're saying 8
9 experts, I think we're talking about most
9
10 knowledgeable. Baniziewski would be most
10
11 knowledgeable. Hobson would be most
11
12 knowledgeable.
12
13
MR. KRISTAL: You guys can't have it
13
14 both ways as I'm sitting here.
14
15 BY MR. KRISTAL:
15
16
Q. You've read in GE interrogatories that
16
17 GE claims that there are a number of different
17
18 people knowledgeable about GE's use of asbestos 18
19 for a variety of different products.
19
20
A. I'm aware that for some products in
20
21 interrogatories there are people who are named
21
22 as those people most knowledgeable in those
22
23 types of products.
23
24
Q. And that would include wire and cable,
24
25 right?
25
Page 356
(Discussion off the record.) MR. KRISTAL: We're putting this on the record or do you want to be off the record? THE SPECIAL MASTER: What kind of objections? MR. KRISTAL: Speaking objections about this and that and everything else, and then the witness picks up on the objection and gives an answer. If it's to form, state as to form. If it's anything else, it's reserved. MR. SPEZIALI: Laraine, I disagree with that characterization, obviously, but let me tell you what the problem is. We have here a 30(b)(6) witness whose genesis starts as an expert in four marine turbine cases, purely aboard ship, Navy exposure cases. In these four cases, there are separate 30(b)(6) witnesses with respect to turbine specific, and -- THE SPECIAL MASTER: You're saying she's not the witness for that? MR. SPEZIALI: She isn't, and here's the problem. If you were to ask her a question about give me the historic knowledge of General Electric about asbestos, you ask her that question, she would take you back to the 1920s,
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
20 (Pages 353 to 356)
Page 357
Page 359 :
1 1930s, and she would say as part of that yes,
1 And I told Dave he has a preservation of eveiy J
2 and by the way, I understand that GE put
2 objection except as to form.
i
3 asbestos or it made products, namely turbines,
3
MR. SPEZIALI: Laraine, Til -- again,
4 that had asbestos applied to them and they made 4 I'll disagree with the idea of coaching. Here's
5 wire and cable and they made plastics and they
5 the other problem, and I've said it on the
;
6 made arc chutes and they made a variety of
6 record several times and I'll repeat it.
:
7 different things.
7
If it was just me and Jeny and knowing
;
8
However, so to -- the short answer --
8 that at some later date you'd be ruling on
9 and as part of that she saw documentation, and
9 objections or the judges would be ruling, I
10 in some instances she talked to people and in
10 would have no problem. I would say objection,
11 some she did not. To that extent in order to
11 or Jerry, you and I know I will have an
12 capture the 30(b)(6) area of what did the
12 objection, and we'd move on with our lives and
13 company in general do about asbestos, the answer 13 this thing would go smooth.
14 to the question is yes, she's that person.
14
The problem is this is the first
15
However, when you start to ask her the
15 30(b)(6) deposition of this nature. It -- the
;
16 questions, okay, so tell me everything there is
16 history of this litigation, as far as I'm aware
17 to know about a turbine, tell me everything
17 maybe there's two, who knows, of this type of
18 there is to know about wire and cable, tell me
18 witness against General Electric, who, of course
19 everything there is to know about an arc chute,
19 has become, in light of bankruptcies, the new
?
20 that's where she stops and she would say no, now 20 target defendant.
21 you have to go to Dave Hobson on one specific 21
We can't sit here and be naive. We
22 product.
22 know the folks in California are going to look
23
THE SPECIAL MASTER: So what's the
23 to read this transcript. We know the folks in
24 problem?
24 Madison County are going to look to read this
25
MR. KRISTAL: Well, the problem is Dave 25 transcript. And those judges and those special
Page 358
Page 360
1 is not saying what is happening here. I'm not
1 masters and those courts, they're not going to
2 asking her to explain how a turbine works, how
2 agree with the New York rules.
3 an arc chute works. She's been designated.
3
I have got to approach this to protect
4
THE SPECIAL MASTER: It's like--you
4 this record. Now, I know we can't seal this
5 know, are we clear, Jerry, that there are
5 transcript, and even if you were to say on the
6 certain areas that you may not explore with this
6 record right now it's never to be used anywhere
7 witness because she's not the designee for the
7 besides New York --
8 areas?
8
THE SPECIAL MASTER: I can't say that.
9
MR. KRISTAL: Well, she was designated 9
MR. SPEZIALI: -- you can't do that.
10 in the following two areas: GE's historical
10
THE SPECIAL MASTER: It's not up to me.
11 knowledge of the hazards of asbestos and GE's
11
MR. KRISTAL: Nor should you care about
12 historical use of asbestos.
12 anywhere else other than New York because we're
13
When I show her a memo and I ask her -
13 in New York taking a New York dep with a GE
14 it talks about asbestos-containing mud and block 14 designee.
15 used on turbines, she's getting coached to say I
15
MR. SPEZIALI: To the extent that I say
16 can't say anything about that. And when I ask
16 objection and indicate in the record, which I
17 her about wire and cable, she can talk about it
17 probably wouldn't do specifically in most
18 and talk about it was only five percent.
18 instances as I'm in a New York case, as to why,
19
So she's picking and choosing what
19 but if I think that a question does --is
20 products she wants to talk about. And my main 20 incomplete with respect to the document, I need
21 reason for calling is simply to have the
21 to say into this record I object, I ask that the
22 objections be a form objection. The witness can 22 entire document be read. I think it's
23 either answer the question or can't answer the
23 incomplete.
24 question or qualifies the answer, but what I
24
THE SPECIAL MASTER: Why can't you do
25 perceive as coaching going on is not proper.
25 that?
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
21 (Pages 357 to 360)
Page 361
Page 363
1
MR. KRISTAL: That's exactly what I
1 documents on turbines and asbestos on turbines.
2 said, Laraine. That's what I said.
2
When I ask her about those documents
3
MR. SPEZIALI: In many states --
3 that she reviewed as part of her scope of her
4
MR. KAPSHANDY: Here's what the problem 4 project, all of a sudden there's an objection.
5 is. This is Tim Kapshandy, Laraine, GE's
5
THE SPECIAL MASTER: Why are you
6 national counsel. He's essentially asking her
6 objecting to asking her about documents that she
7 to decide whether she is the corporate designee
7 reviewed?
8 for a particular subject. That's the lawyer's
8
MR. SPEZIALI: No, no, no. We're not
9 decision.
9 asking about that. Here's what happens. She'll
10
We have told him point blank when it
10 clearly talk about a document that she reviewed.
11 comes to questions of specifics with regard to
11 So to the extent that the document provides
12 turbines or wire and whatever, that she's not
12 insight, yes, GE had a product line, yes, that
13 the designee, she's not answering on behalf of
13 product line had somehow touched upon the world
14 GE, and he wants her to answer that question.
14 of asbestos, that she'll say yes and yes to, and
15
THE SPECIAL MASTER: The way I would 15 she'll say I know that because the document has
16 rather you do that rather than having some sort
16 the word asbestos in it.
17 of leading objection or something that is not a
17
But then to the extent that it goes
18 proper objection, if Jerry is asking her
18 beyond and the question now is and therefore,
19 questions that are outside the scope of her
19 the General Electric Corporation understood that
20 designation, then instruct her not to answer,
20 its turbines, when they went to those ships and
21 all right, save all of that up to the end, and
21 they went to those land facilities, were going
22 then I'll decide whether that is in the scope or
22 to be insulated with asbestos -
23 outside the scope, rather than having a coached
23
MR. KRISTAL: I haven't asked that.
24 answer or rather there having be no answer.
24 Let me give you an example specifically --
25
I mean, if I'm representing a 30(b)(6)
25
THE SPECIAL MASTER: Hold on one
Page 362
Page 364
1 witness and I designated it for A and they were
1 second, please. Sorry.
2 being asked questions about B, I'd simply
2
MR. KRISTAL: - so you can understand
3 instruct her not to answer on the grounds it's
3 what's going on.
4 outside the scope of the designation.
4
THE SPECIAL MASTER: She doesn't know.
5
MR. KRISTAL: This is the first time
5 If he's asking her things that she doesn't know,
6 that I'm hearing that they're carving out what
6 then all she has to say is I can't tell you, I
7 happens to be the critical products in this
7 don't know that.
8 case, number one.
8
MR. KRISTAL: Precisely.
9
THE SPECIAL MASTER: Do they have a 9
THE SPECIAL MASTER: I don't
10 designee for the critical products?
10 understand.
11
MR. KRISTAL: Well, no. There's a guy
11
MR. KRISTAL: The problem is we have a
12 named David Hobson who worked in the late '60s 12 witness --
13 and has since retired from GE. This witness is
13
THE SPECIAL MASTER: Stop. Is the
14 supposedly a total wrap-around witness. They
14 witness in the room?
15 sent me --
15
MR. KRISTAL: No.
16
THE SPECIAL MASTER: What's a
16
THE SPECIAL MASTER: Ifyou'vegota
17 wrap-around witness?
17 witness who's a loose cannon, that's not Jerry's
18
MR. KRISTAL: A witness who is
18 problem. If she doesn't know - if all she
19 basically talking about asbestos use and
19 knows is what she read in the documents and she
20 knowledge of asbestos hazards by GE from the
20 can't respond as to, you know, anything larger
21 1920s forward.
21 than what she read in the document, then her
22
They have sent me hundreds, if not
22 answer is she doesn't know.
23 thousands and thousands of documents that she 23
MR. KAPSHANDY: That's what she said,
24 has reviewed as part of this project to become
24 and she said I'm not the designee for that, and
25 the person most knowledgeable, including
25 he insists on pursuing that.
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
22 (Pages 361 to 364)
Page 365
Page 367 ,
1
THE SPECIAL MASTER: She can say I
1 mentioned previously, wire and cable, and he
2 don't know. His question to her wasn't whether
2 reads from the documents, and then we're off and
3 she was the designee. His question is as to
3 running on wire and cable when we've told him,
4 whether she has knowledge.
4 the interrogatory answers told him there's other
5
MR. KAPSHANDY: He asked her why is it 5 people that know about wire and cable. She's
:
6 that you're begging off on these questions?
6 trying to be fair to him.
1
7 It's very insulting, and it had to do with
7
THE SPECIAL MASTER: I have no
!-
8 whether she could make the determination as to
8 independent knowledge. If the document says
9 whether or not she was designee. She told him
9 that, that's what she has to answer. I mean, if
;
10 at the start she is not. We told him during the
10 that's the --if the only knowledge she has is
11 deposition she is not, and he keeps insisting on
11 what's in the document, that's what she tells
12 asking.
12 him. If you want to cure any incomplete use of ;
13
MR. KRISTAL: Let me give you an
13 the document, you have a turn after they go to
14 example.
14 ask her anything you want to clarify.
15
THE SPECIAL MASTER: After she says I 15
MR. KAPSHANDY: Right. And as long as
16 don't know, he's going to stop wasting his time.
16 we stop at that's all I know from the document,
17
MR. KAPSHANDY: You don't know Jerry. 17 we wouldn't be troubling you and we would be
18
THE SPECIAL MASTER: Your objection to 18 fine.
:
19 that question would be objection to form because 19
MR. KRISTAL: I doubt that.
20 it was asked and answered. Asked and answered. 20
THE SPECIAL MASTER: If he asks six ?
21 I don't have any problem with that.
21 more questions, he's wasting his day, and her
22
MR. KRISTAL: But Laraine, can I give
22 answer should be the same, and eventually --
23 you an example of what I'm talking about?
23 Jerry is not a fool --he will move on.
24
THE SPECIAL MASTER: Okay. Is this all 24
MR. KAPSHANDY: I hope you're right. ;
25 on the record?
25
THE SPECIAL MASTER: I know Jerry is i
Page 366
Page 368 !
1
MR. KRISTAL: If you want to go off the
1 not a fool. I know I'm right.
2 record --
2
MR. KRISTAL: Can we agree that if
3
THE SPECIAL MASTER: Go ahead.
3 there's --
4
MR. KRISTAL: She professes to know
4
THE SPECIAL MASTER: That you're not a
5 about asbestos-containing wire and cable, and
5 fool? I think we can. Unfortunately by the
6 she throws in in the context of an answer, it
6 tone of this --
7 was only five percent of the products. And I'm
7
MR. KRISTAL: All those in favor?
8 moving to strike non-responsive things.
8
THE SPECIAL MASTER: I hope this is on
9
Then when I ask her about turbines, she
9 the record, too.
?
10 begs off because somebody else knows more than 10
MR. KRISTAL: All I'm saying is can we
11 her, and there's other people that know more
11 get direction from you that the objections
12 than her about wire and cable. So what's really
12 should be limited to form, and that every and
13 going on is she's talking about things she knows 13 any other objection is reserved for whenever
14 nothing about, and she's begging off the
14 anybody anywhere in the country wants to use
15 critical products in this case. But if you say
15 this? Because I don't care about use anywhere
16 her answers should be I don't know and limit it
16 else, so I don't see why we should take New York
17 to I don't know the answer to that question,
17 ru le s-
18 we'll go to the next question.
18
THE SPECIAL MASTER: You're taking a
19
THE SPECIAL MASTER: If she honestly 19 New York deposition under New York rules.
20 doesn't know the answer. If she knows, she
20
MR. KRISTAL: Exactly. And therefore,
21 can answer.
21 New York rules apply, and we'll go under New
22
MR. KRISTAL: Right.
22 York rules. If somebody else in the country
23
MR. KAPSHANDY: The problem, Laraine, 23 wants to use this, then they're stuck with
24 is he puts documents in front of her that she's
24 whatever the New York rules were.
25 reviewed that touch upon, as Mr. Speziali
25
THE SPECIAL MASTER: I would agree.
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
23 (Pages 365 to 368)
Page 369
Page 371 '
1
MR. KRISTAL: And thank you for the
1
MR. SPEZIALI: So I would like to at
2 vote of confidence.
2 least be able to indicate for the record that a
3
THE SPECIAL MASTER: Well, it's
3 document, under completeness, should have been
4 limited, Jerry.
4 read in.
5
MR. KAPSHANDY: We may have to call you 5
THE SPECIAL MASTER: I tell you what
6 back.
6 I'll let you do if --Jerry, if it's okay with
7
THE SPECIAL MASTER: I'm reachable at
7 you. When the questioning about the document is
8 all times.
8 completed, if he just wants to make a notation
9
MR. SPEZIALI: We may get to a point
9 that the document wasn't full and the witness
10 where my geographic concerns are such --and
10 doesn't get to say anything else, I have no
11 having been in some of those other
11 problem.
12 jurisdictions, which I know will absolutely
12
MR. KRISTAL: Laraine, we could put one
13 ignore New York rules --
13 statement on. I am marking the exhibits so they i
14
THE SPECIAL MASTER: I don't see how
14 will be part of the transcript. Have you ever
15 you can be hurt by an answer that says I don't
15 been to a deposition where every document in its
16 know.
16 entirety was read into the record? We'd be here
17
MR. SPEZIALI: I'm concerned about a
17 for weeks.
18 partial reading of the document.
18
THE SPECIAL MASTER: I'm not suggesting '
19
THE SPECIAL MASTER: Ifh e re a d sa -
19 that you read it into the record. Where he
20 if he makes a partial read of the document, you
20 feels there's a document where incomplete
21 should --you have an opportunity in this
21 reading is going to prejudice him in some other
22 deposition to ask your own questions and refer
22 jurisdiction, it can be noted. Why don't you,
23 back to his questions and say, Mr. Kristal
23 at the end --
24 showed you a document, this is the document he
24
MR. SPEZIALI: That's what I've been
25 showed you, would you read -- he only read
25 doing.
Page 370
Page 372
1 paragraph two, would you read paragraph four?
1
THE SPECIAL MASTER: Why don't you, at
2 Fine. There's a way to cure that.
2 the end, have something read into the
3
MR. SPEZIALI: Unfortunately in some
3 transcript.
4 jurisdictions because this has not been cross
4
MR. KRISTAL: Just have one major
5 noticed as an evidence dep by GE, my direct
5 statement and it's over.
6 examination at the end would not be admissible. 6
THE SPECIAL MASTER: There's a way of
7
MR. KRISTAL: That's not New York
7 doing that.
8 rules.
8
MR. SPEZIALI: Exactly what you just
9
MR. SPEZIALI: I understand that, but
9 said is what I've been doing. I have just been
10 unfortunately New York rules will not be applied 10 saying objection, I would ask that the entire
11 in many jurisdictions anyway.
11 document be read in the event this transcript is
12
MR. KRISTAL: Not our problem, as I see 12 being used outside the New York rules.
13 it.
13
MR. KRISTAL: Make that statement once.
14
MR. SPEZIALI: I agree. New York
14
MR. SPEZIALI: That's all I've been
15 doesn't have an identity of interest rule. I
15 saying as the document is read in.
16 can take fifty deps of co-workers on the
16
MR. KRISTAL: Is it okay if he makes
17 Constellation in the Brooklyn Navy Yard. In
17 the statement once?
18 every state but three that I know of, Florida,
18
THE SPECIAL MASTER: It seems to me
19 Kentucky, New York, I could read that transcript 19 that's the decision. Have a nice day.
20 in on the identity of interest rule. I can't do
20
MR. SPEZIALI: We'll be talking to you.
21 that in New York, and New York would not
21 Thank you.
22 recognize the jurisdictional rules of 23 California. Do you see what I mean?
22
THE SPECIAL MASTER: Bye.
23
MR. SPEZIALI: Off the record.
24
THE SPECIAL MASTER: I can only be the 24
(Discussion off the record.)
25 special master in this state.
25
MR. KRISTAL: Just on the record. Do
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
24 (Pages 369 to 372)
Page 373
Page 375 :
1 you want to put something on the record?
1 to read this to answer your question.
;
2
MR. SPEZIALI: Okay. As the record
2
Q. Okay.
S
3 reflects, we just had a discussion with the
3
A. It's not totally clear to me who he is.
"
4 special master, Ms. Drucker. Here's how we're
4
Q. Well, there were two people, a
i
5 going to handle this.
5 Mr. Nelson in Schenectady, New York, right? It
6
There may be some instances, based on
6 says that up top. Mr. James Nelson?
5
7 that discussion, we're going to just tell you
7
A. Okay. There was a Mr. Nelson.
;
8 don't answer the question. To the extent that
8
Q. And Mr. Ege?
9 you feel there's an area that you're asked about
9
A. Mr. Ege.
;
10 which is outside your area, you just simply
10
Q. Ege. And the correct spelling is
j
11 state that; this is outside my area, this is
11 E-G-E. And Mr. Ege is John Ege who was a GE
12 knowledge that I don't personally have, and
12 industrial hygienist, correct?
i
13 leave it at that.
13
A. He was, yes.
14
I will just do, at the instruction of
14
Q. Okay. You spoke specifically to
15 what the special master said, which I deem to be 15 Mr. Ege, did you not, with respect to your
16 an instruction by the Court, I will, I will, I
16 becoming the person most knowledgeable about the
17 will --I should say this also is an instruction
17 historical use of asbestos at GE?
18 based upon the finding by the special master
18
A. I did. I spoke to Mr. Ege about
\
19 that this is a New York deposition with New York 19 asbestos matters in general.
i
20 rules.
20
(Whereupon, Drucker Exhibit 18, persons 5
21
I will limit my objections to form, and
21 contacted, places visited document, was then
;
22 to the extent that a document is read
22 received and marked for identification.)
;
23 incompletely, we will simply object, and we
23 BY MR. KRISTAL:
24 also -- with the understanding that that entire
24
Q. Okay. And you spoke to him on
)
25 document, if it's used as an exhibit in this
25 looking --and I'll hand you a copy that I
;
Page 374
1 dep, is going to be attached to the transcript.
1
2
With that, let's - - 1don't know if I
2
3 missed anything, but we'll proceed and see how
3
4 this works out.
4
5
MR. KRISTAL: Okay.
5
6
MR. SPEZIALI: We were on Exhibit 171 6
7 think was our last exhibit.
7
8
MR. KRISTAL: Exhibit 17 says, reading
8
9 the second paragraph, quote, he would add only
9
10 one specific question. The utility customer of
10
11 General Electric periodically takes down turbine 11
12 generators. The insulation lagging, which goes 12
13 on the turbine as a wet mud, is, of course,
13
14 removed at the time of dismantling in a very
14
15 dry, dusty state, end quote. Do you see that
15
16 sentence?
16
17
THE WITNESS: I don't have it in front
17
18 of me.
18
19
MR. SPEZIALI: You have it there.
19
20 Again, my objection is for reasons stated.
20
21
THE WITNESS: Yes, I read that.
21
22 BY MR. KRISTAL:
22
23
Q. And the "he" refers to, from reading
23
24 this document, Mr. Egge, E-G-G-E, or Mr. Nelson? 24
25
A. His real name is Ege, E-G-E. I'm trying
25
Page 376 i
marked as Exhibit 18 - at your persons
contacted, places visited document, and down at
the bottom there's an entry that you spoke to
i
Mr. Ege on the phone 12/1/03.
;
A. That's correct.
i
Q. And there were no limitations on what
?
you could ask Mr. Ege, right, put on by GE?
J
A. No. I could ask anything I want.
Q. What did Mr. Ege say about this
l
conference in which either he or Mr. Nelson
i
asked about insulation lagging coming off a
:
turbine being dismantled and coming off in a
?
veiy dry, dusty state? What did he say about
!
that?
MR. KAPSHANDY: Objection. It's not a
GE document.
MR. KRISTAL: All you need to say is
object to the form.
THE WITNESS: Okay. First of all, I
don't know if it's --somebody at GE apparently
did not write this document. I don't know if
what this person is saying or paraphrasing or
alleging or anything happened is true or is
anything related to GE whatever. So I mean,
I -- what was your question?
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
25 (Pages 373 to 376)
Page 377
Page 379 ?
1
MR. SPEZIALI: Did you to talk to him?
1 the person writing this was accurate. I don't
2 BY MR. KRISTAL:
2 know what they had in their mind. I don't know.
3
Q. Let me back up for a second. You were
3 I don't know if this conversation or these
4 given a task unrestricted by GE to find out a
4 questions ever occurred. No, I didn't contact
5 lot of information about GE's historical use of
5 Mr. Ege. I actually saw these documents fairly
6 asbestos and GE's knowledge historically about
6 recently.
7 the hazards of asbestos, correct?
7
Q. Like when?
8
A. Yes.
8
A. I'd say within the last week or so.
9
Q. Were there any restrictions placed on
9
Q. So you're going to plan on calling
10 you timewise, money, material, who you could
10 Mr. Ege to find out something about this
11 speak to, who you couldn't speak to, any kind of 11 document?
12 restrictions placed by GE on you in that regard? 12
MR. SPEZIALI: Objection.
13
A. No, no, they didn't give me any
13 BY MR. KRISTAL:
14 restrictions.
14
Q. Are you planning on calling Mr. Ege?
15
Q. Did you speak to Mr. Ege about this
15
A. I have no plans one way or the other as
16 memo?
16 I sit here right now.
17
A. I don't recall having spoken to Mr. Ege
17
Q. Was it your goal when you started this
18 about this memo specifically, for one thing. I
18 project to get as much knowledge as you could on
19 did speak to Mr. Ege about asbestos in general.
19 the subjects that you were asked to get
20 For another, it's my understanding that these
20 knowledge about?
21 documents come from Manville trust which, as I 21
A. Yes, it was.
22 understand it, these documents were obtained
22
Q. Okay. And this document, in your mind
23 fairly recently; since, in fact, I had spoken to
23 you don't know if it's accurate, who was at the
24 Mr. Ege. So that's - just in timing, I didn't 25 have this by the time - at the time that I had
24 meeting, who wrote it, right?
25
A. Right. We don't know from this.
Page 378
Page 380 '
1 spoken to Mr. Ege on December 1st of 2003.
2
Q. Okay. So when you reviewed this
3 document you called him back?
4
A. When 1 reviewed this document I had the
5 same questions in my mind that I just spoke to
6 you about. First of all, Mr. Ege - can I
7 finish, please?
8
Q. My question is, did you call him back
9 after you reviewed the document?
10
A. I'm supposed to answer these questions
11 the way I'm supposed to answer them.
1
Q. But you do know that it references a
2 person who you have already spoken to and you
3 have access to speak to again, right?
4
A. Yes. And according to Mr. Ege, as he
5 told me on the phone on December 1st, 2003, he
6 didn't think asbestos was a problem during his
7 tenure. So in a way, he addressed this;
8 whatever issues came up. He didn't think
9 asbestos was a problem during his long tenure
10 with General Electric.
11
Q. And this document would contradict
12
Q. You're supposed to give an answer
12 that, right?
13 that's responsive.
14
A. That's what I'm doing.
15
Q. My question is, did you call Mr. Ege
16 after you read the document?
17
A. No.
13
MR. SPEZIALI: Objection.
14
THE WITNESS: Not necessarily at all.
15 We don't know what this document reflects;
16 somebody's accurate, inaccurate, distorted view
17 about what was talked about. Who knows what
18
Q. Okay. Next question, why didn't you
19 call Mr. Ege after you read the document if
18 this --no.
19
MR. KRISTAL: Isn't that the reason you
20 there's any question about what the document
21 says?
22
A. Well, as I said, with regard to
20 should speak to Mr. Ege?
21
MR. SPEZIALI: Objection.
22
THE WITNESS: I've already spoken to
23 questions about the document, I have no idea if 23 Mr. Ege, and according -
24 this was - we know that this wasn't written by
24 BY MR. KRISTAL:
25 Mr. Ege or somebody at GE, and I don't know if 25
Q. So you don't --
26 (Pages 377 to 380)
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
Page 381
Page 383
1
A. Can I finish?
1 is from the GE exhibit list?
2
Q. Sure. Go ahead.
2
MR. KRISTAL: No. The E-17 is from the
3
A. According to Mr. Ege, asbestos wasn't a
3 disc of documents that Ms. Drucker reviewed.
4 problem during his tenure at General Electric.
4
MR. KAPSHANDY: That is a GE index
5
Q. And now you have a document that you
5 provided to you?
6 don't know if it's accurate or not that mentions
6
MR. KRISTAL: I agree, it's part of the
7 Mr. Ege being present at a meeting, right?
7 GE index of documents that Ms. Drucker reviewed.
8
A. Right.
8 There's a separate exhibit list in New York for
9
Q. And you have no plans to speak to
9 this trial, and I don't believe this is on the
10 Mr. Ege about that?
10 GE exhibit list.
11
A. I said I didn't have any plans one way
11
THE WITNESS: Would you give me the E
12 or another.
12 number?
13
Q. Do you think it's a good idea you might
13
MR. KRISTAL: 17.
14 want to speak to Mr. Ege?
14
MR. SPEZIALI: Okay. And this is
15
MR. SPEZIALI: Objection.
15 Drucker --
16
THE WITNESS: I've spoken to a
16
MR. KRISTAL: 19.
17 considerable number of other people, as you
17
MR. SPEZIALI: I'msony. What's 18?
18 know, from this listing and from our
18
MR. KRISTAL: 18 was the chron--
19 discussions, and my, my understanding from
19
MR. SPEZIALI: I put 8. That's 18.
20 speaking to many industrial hygienists and
20 All right.
21 medical people over the years, and having been 21 BY MR. KRISTAL:
22 there myself in the 1970s, is that asbestos was
22
Q. You read this document, did you not,
23 not a problem the way it was used at GE.
23 before today?
24
MR. KRISTAL: Do you think it would be 24
A. Yes.
25 a good idea in the context of your role that
25
Q. When did you read this document?
Page 382
Page 384
1 you've been asked to perform for GE to speak to
1
A. Several months ago.
2 Mr. Ege about this document? Yes or no.
2
Q. Now, there are many boxes of documents
3
THE WITNESS: Maybe, maybe not. I will 3 that you reviewed in performing your task for GE
4 give it certain thought.
4 regarding GE's historical knowledge of the
5
MR. KRISTAL: Okay. IfMs.Drucker
5 hazards of asbestos and historical use of
6 sees fit to speak to Mr. Ege about this
6 asbestos?
7 document, I would ask that I be notified that
7
A. Yes, I reviewed many boxes of
8 that occurred so I can question her about that.
8 materials.
9
(Whereupon, Drucker Exhibit 19, a
9
Q. Did you take any notes on those
10 document entitled ACM manuals including TDLs, 10 materials?
11 was then received and marked for
11
A. No.
12 identification.)
12
Q. Did you write on the documents
13
MR. KRISTAL: Exhibit 19 is a large
13 themselves any notations or any kind of anything
14 exhibit entitled ACM manuals including TILs.
14 in writing to help you recall high points, low
15
MR. SPEZIALI: What number is that,
15 points, anything you thought about a document?
16 Jeny?
16 Anything like that?
17
MR. KRISTAL: E-17. I'm marking it
17
A. In some instances I used highlighter.
18 as -- a group of them, and I'm marking one at a
18
Q. Okay. And where are your highlighted
19 time as Drucker 19, Til mark the first one
19 copies?
20 which is a portion of this larger document.
20
A. They're at my office.
21 It's about an inch and a half thick, and I
21
Q. Okay. And did you take any notes or
22 wasn't going to copy the whole thing. So I
22 write on them other than the highlighting?
23 marked a portion in it which is called a
23
A. No.
24 technical information letter, TEL.
24
Q. This -- do you know what a technical
25
MR. SPEZIALI: For the record, the E-17 25 information letter is from your review of GE
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761 -0527
27 (Pages 381 to 384)
_
Page 385
Page 387
1 information?
1 turbine generators?
2
A. Yes.
2
MR. KAPSHANDY: Are you asking her
3
Q. And it's a letter that is to inform
3 personally or as the 30(b)(6) designee? I think
4 customers of various things, correct?
4 we may be running afoul here. It was TM
5
A. Yes. In general, this one is one of
5
MR. KRISTAL: I'm asking what your
6 those. It's directed to sales and service
6 understanding of the document was.
7 organizations.
7
MR. KAPSHANDY: Is that of her
8
Q. And this particular one is entitled
8 personally or as a 30(b)(6) designee?
9 Asbestos-Containing Material in Turbine
9
MR. KRISTAL: As a 30(b)(6).
10 Generators Applicable to Steam Turbine
10
MR. KAPSHANDY: Here we're going to ask
11 Generators. Do you see that?
11 again for the special master's instructions.
12
A. Yes.
12 Instruct her not to answer. A witness, Paul
13
Q. And it indicates that the purpose of
13 Baniziewski, has been designated to explain
14 the TIL is to inform customers of the possible
14 these documents in turbines and the use of
15 location of asbestos-containing materials in
15 asbestos in conjunction with them.
16 General Electric steam turbine generators
16
MR. KRISTAL: Well, are you making him
17 manufactured for utility and industrial
17 available in this case then? In other words,
18 applications, right?
18 when I sent out a notice with GE to designate
19
A. Yes.
19 the person most knowledgeable with respect to
20
MR. SPEZIALI: Objection.
20 GE's historical use of asbestos, it was not
21
THE WITNESS: You read that correctly. 21 limited in any way to a particular product or
22
MR. KRISTAL: And is it your
22 product line. So Ms. Drucker was designated.
23 understanding o f this TIL that it only applies
23 Now I understand you're making statements about
24 to GE turbine -- steam turbine generators for
24 other people being designated.
25 utility and industrial applications that were
25
MR. KAPSHANDY: Right.
Page 386
1 manufactured as o f a certain date or all such
1
2 pieces of equipment manufactured by GE used by 2
3 any and all customers in that description?
3
4
THE WITNESS: By any and all
4
5 customers --what do you mean? This one is
5
6 directed to utility and industrial applications.
6
7
MR. KRISTAL: Right. And is the
7
8 document limited in time in terms of turbine
8
9 generators manufactured after a certain date or
9
10 before a certain date or within certain dates?
10
11
MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. I don't
11
12 understand the question.
12
13 BY MR. KRISTAL:
13
14
Q. Sure. When you read this document, it
14
15 applied to GE steam turbine generators
15
16 manufactured for utility and industrial
16
17 applications. Was that your understanding?
17
18
A. That's that it says.
18
19
Q. Was that your understanding?
19
20
A. Yes, because that's what it says. That
20
21 was my understanding, yes.
21
22
Q. Good. Was it your understanding that
22
23 this TIL relating to steam turbine generators
23
24 was limited to any specific steam turbine
24
25 generator or model or applied to all GE steam
25
Page 388
MR. KRISTAL: So I want to know are you making those people available in these cases on that subject, because I believe that GE's asbestos use in all products relates to these cases, and that's what our dep notice was for.
MR. KAPSHANDY: Well, if you want a designee for land turbines and it is appropriate in these cases, whatever that means, Mr. Baniziewski would be that designee.
MR. KRISTAL: Then we will take his dep. You need to get a date for his deposition.
MR. KAPSHANDY: In these four cases or generally?
MR. KRISTAL: Generally. MR. KAPSHANDY: That's fine. MR. KRISTAL: And we also have who else? He's going to be --Hobson, he's going to be designated in all cases for person most knowledgeable about steam turbines? MR. KAPSHANDY: He has, I believe. MR. KRISTAL: I don't think he has because he said his knowledge was limited as of the time he started working and GE turbines were delivered to him. You may need to designate somebody else.
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
28 (Pages 385 to 388)
Page 389
Page 391
1
What about other GE products? Every
1 a motors case and you think that deposition is
2 and any GE product that had asbestos in it I
2 important, then we'll arrange to produce it.
3 want to take that person's deposition that's
3
MR. KRISTAL: Who is your 30(b)(6)
4 most knowledgeable, because I don't understand 4 witness on the historical use by GE of asbestos?
5 what Ms. Drucker is doing here on that subject
5
MR. KAPSHANDY: It depends on the
6 if you're saying she can't talk about turbines,
6 product. Let me be as plain as possible.
7 wire and cable. Are you going to have somebody 7 There's no one person who can answer that
8 for arc chutes and phenolic resins? My dep
8 question.
9 notice was not limited.
9
MR. KRISTAL: Then what products is she
10
MR. SPEZIALI: Let me say that to the
10 here to discuss?
11 extent that these cases --none of us have
11
MR. KAPSHANDY: She's here to talk
12 looked underneath them beyond the four.
12 about the knowledge with regard to the health
13
MR. KRISTAL: There's nothing limited
13 issues associated with the use of asbestos.
14 by these cases.
14 Unfortunately, there's no separate category for
15
MR. SPEZIALI: Yes, there is. I
15 use versus state of the art on knowledge of
16 disagree with you. I don't think arc chutes are
16 health effects because they go hand in hand.
17 relevant to the Navy cases.
17
If you happen to be using asbestos in
18
MR. KRISTAL: Well, then you need to
18 the production of wire and doing industrial
19 file a protective order and - you will need to
19 hygiene sampling, they overlap. She's doing her
20 file a protective order.
20 best to answer those questions. When you blur
21
MR. SPEZIALI: We're going to have to
21 into an area which clearly involves the
22 do that. I'm not conceding that on the record,
22 technical expertise of that product, we have
23 but to the extent that there are cases -- and I
23 other designees for that. If it's appropriate
24 suspect there are land turbine cases. I'm not
24 in a particular case, that person will be
25 going to pretend there aren't. That's the only
25 produced.
Page 390
Page 392
1 one that I would know beyond marine that we
1
MR. KRISTAL: Is Ms. Drucker being
2 would have a separate person for the kind of
2 designated as General Electric's person most
3 detail you're looking for on the 30(b)(6).
3 knowledgeable on the historic use of asbestos?
4
MR. KAPSHANDY: Just so the record is
4
MR. KAPSHANDY: It depends on the
5 clear, a number of other designees' depositions
5 product.
6 have been produced and are in those materials.
6
MR. KRISTAL: Why didn't you say that
7 Let's not be coy about that. The depositions
7 before we got here?
8 are in these materials and provided to you for
8
MR. KAPSHANDY: I said it at the
9 motors.
9 beginning. We said it off the record. We said
10
MR. KRISTAL: These depositions were
10 it on the record repeatedly.
11 provided to Ms. Drucker for her to review.
11
MR. KRISTAL: The first time I heard
12
MR. KAPSHANDY: They were provided to 12 that was this morning. What I want to know
13 you, also.
13 is -- there were two areas; one, General
14
MR. KRISTAL: O f course they were
14 Electric's historical knowledge of the hazards
15 provided.
15 of exposure to asbestos. Is Ms. Drucker GE's
16
MR. KAPSHANDY: So don't pretend you 16 spokesperson for that?
17 don't know who they are.
17
MR. KAPSHANDY: Yes.
18
MR. KRISTAL: They were provided to me 18
MR. SPEZIALI: On certain aspects of
19 as documents that she reviewed in terms of her
19 it, yes.
20 task. So she's reviewing depositions of other
20
MR. KRISTAL: What do you mean by that?
21 people. That's fine. But now if you want to
21
THE WITNESS: Health aspects.
22 change that and say she can't talk about it,
22
MR. KRISTAL: He just said that.
23 that's fine, too.
23
MR. SPEZIALI: He didn't use the word.
24
MR. KAPSHANDY: She is not the designee 24
MR. KRISTAL: Hazards of the exposure
25 on motors, if that's your question. If you have
25 to asbestos.
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
29 (Pages 389 to 392)
Page 393
Page 395
1
MR. SPEZIALI: Yes.
MR. KAPSHANDY: To the extent that you
2
MR. KRISTAL: Number two, General
believe this relates to health and safety issues
3 Electric's historic use of asbestos. Who's your
and hazard communication, then yes.
4 designee?
4 BY MR. KRISTAL:
5
MR. SPEZIALI: She, and to the extent
5
Q. Put on your expert hat. What's your
6 that you want to get into technical aspects with
6 understanding of Exhibit 19, this TIL, in terms
7 respect to the mechanics of a particular piece
7 of whether it applies to any particular year or
8 of equipment, an additional witness. There is
8 any particular model of GE steam turbine
9 not one person in that category. There are
9 generator for utility and industrial
10 several people.
0 applications?
11
MR. KRISTAL: Are you limiting
1
A. I have to say I don't know.
12 Ms. Drucker to historical use of asbestos to
2
Q. Well, is it limited in the document
13 certain products or not?
14
MR. SPEZIALI: No.
3 itself?
4
A. Is "it" limited? What do you mean by
15
MR. KRISTAL: Well, then I don't
16 understand why she can't answer the question.
15 "it"?
6
Q. What's your understanding in terms of
17
MR. SPEZIALI: I made it very clear
18 with the special master on the record. To the
7 who this letter was sent to; this TIL?
18
MR. KAPSHANDY: Asked and answered, but
19 extent that she's asked are you aware that i20 asbestos was used or touched upon --
19 go ahead.
20
THE WITNESS: Just all I can do is say
121
MR. KRISTAL: What I'm asking her is
21 that this was --the purpose of this tactical
:22 her understanding of that document.
22 information letter is to inform our customers of
123
MR. SPEZIALI: To the extent she's
23 the possible locations of asbestos-containing
24 asked, she'll say yes.
25
MR. KRISTAL: I asked her her
24 materials in General Electric's steam turbine 25 generators manufactured for utility and
Page 394
Page 396
1 understanding o f this document, and she was
1 industrial applications.
2 instructed not to answer.
3
MR. KAPSHANDY: No. I asked you to
2 BY MR. KRISTAL:
3
Q. Okay. Is it limited in any way to
4 clarify whether it was her personal
4 steam turbine generators manufactured before or
5 understanding or whether she was being asked as 5 after any certain date?
6 a GE corporate designee.
6
A. I don't know.
7
MR. KRISTAL: I could care less about
7
Q. Well, does it say that?
8 Ms. Drucker's personal understanding about
8
A. I don't know.
9 virtually anything in the context of this
9
Q. You don't know if it says that?
10 deposition.
10
A. No.
11
MR. KAPSHANDY: In which case you did 11
Q. Why don't you read it.
12 change the question. If ifs not simply what
12
A. If you'd like me to take my time, sure.
13 she reviewed or what her understanding is but
13
Q. Sure. Take as much time as you need.
14 what the GE's representation is as to what the
14
A. Thank you. And could I have the
15 purpose of that document is and to whom it was 16 sent, you need to ask Paul Baniziewski. If you
15 question again, please?
16
(Whereupon, the above-requested
17 want to ask what her personal understanding is,
17 question was then read by the reporter.)
18 she might be able to answer.
18
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
19
MR. KRISTAL: Why would I care what her 19 BY MR. KRISTAL:
j20 personal understanding is if she's not speaking
20
21 as a GE designee? It's like asking anybody in
21
Q. But you just read it, right? A. I just read this, yes.
122 the room -
22
23
MR. KAPSHANDY: She's also tendered as 23
Q. Does it say in it that it's limited? A. I don't know.
124 an expert -
25
MR. KRISTAL: On this subject?
24
Q. You don't know if it says in this that
25 it's limited or not limited?
30 (Pages 393 to 396)
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
Page 397
1
A. I didn't see the word limited in the
1
2 document. If there is one, perhaps you could
2
3 point it out to me. As I mentioned before,
3
4 there's a person who does land-based steam
4
5 turbines who you could speak to,
5
6 Mr. Baniziewski, who's the person most
6
7 knowledgeable about this.
7
8
Q. We've spoken to the special master
8
9 about this. Just say I don't know.
9
10
A. I did.
10
11
MR. KAPSHANDY: She did.
11
12
MR. KRISTAL: Well, then you don't need 12
13 to go on any further.
13
14
MR. KAPSHANDY: Well, then don't re-ask 14
15 it. Then we'll move faster.
15
16 BY MR. KRISTAL:
16
17
Q. My question is, does the document
17
18 anywhere in it limit itself to a year in terms
18
19 of the manufacture of steam turbine generators
19
20 that they're talking about?
20
21
A. I don't know.
21
22
Q. Does the document limit it --limit
22
23 itself in the document to any particular model
23
24 steam turbine generator that's referenced in
24
25 terms of being manufactured for utility and
25
Page 399 i
of the project, I'd say, I saw that a tactical
;
information had been issued; tactical
information letter had been issued.
Q. Did you try - - were you done?
;
A. Yes.
,
Q. Did you try to understand it?
A. Did I try to understand it? Sure, I
i
tried to understand what I read.
Q. Did you ask anybody about it?
A. Not that I recall.
?
Q. If it's not in your notes, fair to say
you didn't ask anybody about it?
;
A. Well, I'd say that in general those
;
notes that you're referring to listing are the
specific interviews that I had with people.
Q. In those specific interviews that you
had with people, did you ask anybody about this
TIL?
A. Not that I recall. It was my
understanding that there was an expert who was
going to be dealing with this; most
knowledgeable person for steam generators,
Mr. Baniziewski.
Q. Okay. Now, this document notes that
asbestos-containing thermal insulation was used ;
Page 398
Page 400
1 industrial applications?
1 on steam turbine generators, does it not?
2
A. I don't know.
2
MR. SPEZIALI: Objection.
3
Q. Well, I don't understand when you say
3
THE WITNESS: Can you tell me what
4 you don't know. You're reading the words of the 4 you're looking at, please?
5 document, and you don't know if they say what
5
MR. KRISTAL: Sure. Look at any or all
6 I'm asking one way or the other?
6 portions of it. There's a table which begins on
7
MR. KAPSHANDY: Objection. The
7 the fourth page, and it says asbestos-containing
8 document speaks for itself.
8 material type, heat retention material, i.e.,
9
THE WITNESS: You just told me if I
9 thermal insulation, comma, lagging. Do you see
10 don't know, I should say I don't know. I told
10 that?
11 you I don't know, and then you say why don't you 11
MR. SPEZIALI: Objection.
12 know.
12 BY MR. KRISTAL:
13 BY MR. KRISTAL:
13
Q. Turn to the next page. You read that,
14
Q. I didn't say that.
14 right?
15
A. I don't know why you keep repeating
15
A. I looked it over.
16 these questions. I told you there's a person
16
Q. Well, for what purpose?
17 who does address this kind of steam turbine
17
A. General information on that this
18 generator. Mr. Baniziewski.
18 appeared that, you know -- and it was my
19
Q. Did you read this document before you
19 understanding that this was -- that customers
20 got here today, Exhibit 19?
20 were inquiring, and that general information
21
A. I read it over, yes.
21 letter was provided, and beyond that, that
22
Q. Was it part of the knowledge base that
22 specifics would be addressed by the steam --
23 you have regarding GE and its historical use of 24 asbestos?
23 land-based steam turbine expert, 24 Mr. Baniziewski.
25
A. It was a document that I read for part
25
Q. Okay. When you read this document, you
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
31 (Pages 397 to 400)
Page 401
Page 403
1 saw that in a table that is entitled
1
A. Why did I read their transcripts?
2 Asbestos-Containing Material in Turbine
2
Q. Yeah.
3 Generators. You see that title, right?
3
A. Because I was interested in seeing what
4
A. You read that correctly. That's title
4 they had to say. They were the people most
5 one.
5 knowledgeable in land-based steam turbines and
6
Q. Did you read that when you looked at
6 marine steam turbines, so it was of interest to
7 this document?
7 me to read their depositions.
8
A. Yes, I read that.
8
Q. Where it says asbestos-containing
9
Q. There's a column, left-hand side that
9 material, then it says potential locations,
10 says asbestos-containing material type. Do you 10 right? It says general, hot surfaces greater
11 see that?
11 than a hundred and forty degrees Fahrenheit. Do
12
A. Yes, there's a column that says
12 you see that?
13 asbestos-containing material type.
13
A. It says potential locations. What this
14
Q. Did you read that?
14 speaks to me --it all depends. It depends, it
15
A. I'm sure I looked it over, yes.
15 depends, it depends. It depends on the
16
Q. And under that, the first thing under
16 situation, model, the year. I don't know why we
17 that column is heat retention material, i.e.,
17 keep going over this. You can ask me about
18 thermal insulation, comma, lagging. Do you see 18 every single one on here, and I'm going to say
19 that?
19 it depends.
20
A. Yes, you read that correctly.
20
Q. Okay. Maybe you misunderstood my
21
Q. Did you read that at the time you saw
21 question.
22 this document?
22
A. Sure.
23
A. Again, I looked it over for general
23
Q. Your understanding of this document is
24 information. It's my understanding there was a
24 is that for some turbine generators that are
25 specialist who would deal with this,
25 being referenced in this document there was
Page 402
1 Mr. Baniziewski. These are specialized things.
1
2 There was a land-based steam turbine, and
2
3 there's a marine steam turbine person.
3
4
Q. Is it your understanding from this
4
5 document that GE is saying that there was
5
6 asbestos-containing heat retention material on
6
7 hot surfaces of its turbine generators from
7
8 reading this document?
8
9
MR. SPEZIALI: Objection.
9
10
THE WITNESS: Maybe, maybe not. It's
10
11 my understanding it all depends on the type, the 11
12 model, the year; that anything the client,
12
13 the --anything. Where it's going, you know.
13
14 It's, it's --
14
15 BY MR. KRISTAL:
15
16
Q. Where did you get that understanding?
16
17
A. Where did I get that understanding?
17
18 Well, first of all, I know from having worked
18
19 with the Navy that the Navy would have certain 19
20 types of requirements that may be different from 20
21 any other type of situation obviously because
21
22 there's -- it's a marine situation. And I also
22
23 read deposition transcripts of Mr. Baniziewski,
23
24 Mr. Hobson, and so I had information.
24
25
Q. Why did you read their transcripts?
25
Page 404
asbestos-containing insulation on hot surfaces, not all of them, it depends on the application and the specifications in part?
A. Maybe, maybe not. Q. Maybe, maybe not meaning under no case was there asbestos-containing thermal insulation used? A. I don't know.
Q. Well, then why would GE be informing customers that a potential location for its turbine generators would be the hot surfaces where there would be asbestos-containing thermal insulation if under no circumstances did that occur?
MR. KAPSHANDY: Objection. Maybe it's been answered. If you can understand it.
THE WITNESS: I don't understand the question, but I really would think for details like that, you need to speak to the person most knowledgeable.
MR. KRISTAL: Did you speak to the person about this document?
MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: I did answer that, and I
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
32 (Pages 401 to 404)
Page 405
1 said that no, I read their deposition
1
2 transcripts, and it was my understanding that
2
3 they were available to be - to answer questions
3
4 on those subjects.
4
5 BY MR. KRISTAL:
5
6
Q. There's no question in your mind,
6
7 though, that this was a GE document written by
7
8 GE dated November 10th, 1989, right? It's got a 8
9 GE copyright?
9
10
A. I don't authenticate documents. All I
10
11 can do is just, like you, look at what it says
11
12 on this piece of paper. Beyond that, I don't
12
13 know.
13
14
Q. What's your understanding? Is this
14
15 based on, this piece of paper, a document
15
16 copyrighted by General Electric?
16
17
A. I don't authenticate documents.
17
18
MR. SPEZLALI: He just wants to know do 18
19 you, from looking at it, think that this is a GE
19
20 document. That's all he wants. You said yeah? 20
21
THE WITNESS: It appears to be a GE
21
22 document.
22
23
MR. SPEZIALI: Okay. That's all he
23
24 wants to know.
24
25
THE WITNESS: I said beyond looking at 25
Page 407
Q. But your best understanding is this was a GE document?
MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: A gainMR. KRISTAL: You're not objecting to this on authenticity grounds. I'm asking you -- MR. SPEZIALI: She's already said that her conclusion is this is a GE document. MR. KAPSHANDY: It's a document that we produced from GE's files. We're not objecting to its authenticity, to speed it up. (Whereupon, Drucker Exhibit 20, a TIL relating to gas and steam turbines and generators, was then received and marked for identification.) MR. KRISTAL: I'm going to mark as Exhibit 20 another TIL relating to gas and steam turbines and generators. Did you read this document before today? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. KRISTAL: This is another technical information letter from GE to customers advising them where potential locations of asbestos-containing materials in GE gas and
Page 406
Page 408
1 that like you. That's all I can do. It says
1 steam turbines and generators were located?
2 General Electric on it.
2
MR. SPEZIALI: Objection.
3 BY MR. KRISTAL:
3
THE WITNESS: The purpose is to advise
4
Q. When you were assigned your task when
4 customers of potential locations of
5 you were reviewing all these documents that were 5 asbestos-containing materials in GE gas and
6 sent to you by the GE lawyers, did you make any 6 steam turbines and generators.
7 effort in your mind to figure out, do I think
7
MR. KRISTAL: And does this document in
8 this is a GE document, do I think this isn't a
8 the document itself limit itself to any year or
9 GE document, I don't know one way or the other? 9 model or make of GE gas and steam turbine or
10 Did you make that effort?
10 generator?
11
A. Do I think this is a GE document? Are
11
MR. SPEZIALI: Objection.
12 you talking about general? Are you talking
12
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
13 about this?
13 BY MR. KRISTAL:
14
Q. General.
14
Q. Did you read the document?
15
A. Well, in general I certainly look a
15
A. Yes.
16 document over to see where --like from or to,
16
Q. From your reading of the document, does
17 if that's the case, or whatever may be attendant
17 it limit itself to any make or model or
18 with it.
18 particular year?
19
Q. To try to see if it was a GE document
19
A. I don't know.
20 or not in part?
20
Q. Do you read English?
21
A. Well, that was just part of the puzzle.
21
MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. Come on.
22 There were a lot of documents that I looked at.
22 Ask a question.
23 Whether it was a GE or state, whether it was a
23 BY MR. KRISTAL:
24 study, whether it was anything, it was just
24
Q. Do the words o f the document limit
25 part, part of the puzzle.
25 itself in any way?
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
33 (Pages 405 to 408)
Page 409
Page 411
1
A. Well, let me answer it this way: Yes,
1 see that?
2 by the way, I do read English. Thank you.
2
A. Yes, I read that.
3
When I look at a document like this,
3
Q. And you are aware, are you not, that
4 it's a technical information letter, and to me
4 those items were manufactured by GE?
5 this speaks to people who are technical people
5
MR. SPEZIALI: Objection.
6 in these areas of gas and steam turbines and
6
THE WITNESS: No, no. They - it's my
7 generators.
7 understanding that they were made by others and
8
This might speak to them as far as what
8 possibly used by GE in certain types of
9 you're asking about, years and other things that
9 situations.
10 I just don't know about. I don't know. And
10
MR. KRISTAL: Why don't you look at the
11 that I would refer the type of information,
11 next page of the document.
12 something like that, to the overall expertise of
12
MR. SPEZIALI: Next page. Page or
13 somebody who knows about these things; in this 13 paragraph?
14 case, Mr. Baniziewski.
14 BY MR. KRISTAL:
15
Q. I'll give you what I'm marking as
15
Q. Next page. Roman numeral four, quote,
16 Exhibit 23.
16 status of the candidate replacement materials,
17
MR. SPEZIALI: Do you know that 21 and 17 unquote. Do you see that section?
18 22 haven't been marked yet?
18
A. Yes.
19
MR. KRISTAL: No.
19
Q. And the first paragraph is A, arc
20
MR. SPEZIALI: I got 21 as my next
20 chutes. Do you see that?
21 number.
21
A. Yes.
22
MR. KRISTAL: We'll mark this as 21.
22
Q. Now, I'm going to leave out the various
23
(Whereupon, Drucker Exhibit 21, a memo 23 model numbers because it would take me too long
24 dated June 10th, 1974 from the insulation and
24 to read them. So let me read the couple of
25 non-metals laboratory, memo report WJ Willis, 25 sentences there without the model numbers.
Page 410
1 and the subject is replacement materials for
2 structural asbestos parts, was then received and
3 marked for identification.)
4 BY MR. KRISTAL:
5
Q. Handing you what's been marked as
6 Exhibit 21 which is a memo dated June 10th, 1974
7 from the insulation and non-metals laboratory,
8 memo report WJ Willis, and the subject is
9 replacement materials for structural asbestos
10 parts. This came from some of the documents
11 that you had been asked to review by GE.
12
Now, this document references the fact
13 that there are asbestos-containing parts on
14 equipment sold to the New York City Transit
15 Authority which are arc chutes, structural
16 frames for resistors, and insulating
17 constructing bases and boxes. Do you see that
18 in the document?
19
A. Where were you reading from?
20
Q. Under discussion, the first sentence.
21 It says, quote, asbestos-containing parts on
22 equipment sold to New York City Transit
23 Authority are arc chutes, structural frames for
24 resistors, and insulating 25 constructing bases and boxes, end quote. Do you
Page 412
1
Quote, arc chute sides and other
2 similar parts are molded in building 24 from GE
3 number one compound per manufacturing process 4 P6-GEP16. Do you see that sentence?
5
A. Yes.
6
MR. SPEZIALI: Objection.
7 BY MR. KRISTAL:
8
Q. So is it your understanding of that
9 sentence from reading this document that GE is
10 manufacturing the arc chutes?
11
A. No, I don't take that necessarily as
12 manufacturing.
13
Q. Okay. Well, let's read the next
14 sentence. Quote, GE number ninety-one compound
15 consists of slaked, S-L-A-K-E-D, line, comma, 16 flint, and intermediate short asbestos fibers, 17 end quote. Do you see that sentence?
18
A. Yes.
19
Q. So they're talking about a particular
20 GE mix, right? Number ninety-one compound?
21 Right?
22
A. Yeah. That's n o t- - that's a compound.
23 That's not necessarily the compound formulating
24 the arc chute, but go ahead.
25
Q. What are you talking about? It says in
34 (Pages 409 to 412)
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
Page 413
1 the sentence we just read that the arc chutes
1
2 are molded from GE number ninety-one compound. 2
3
MR. SPEZIALI: Right.
3
4
MR. KAPSHANDY: Objection, Counsel.
4
5 This is under the section entitled candidate for
5
6 replacement materials.
6
7
MR. KRISTAL: Of course. This is the
7
8 lead-in paragraph that's talking about the GE
8
9 asbestos-containing, and manufactured by GE, arc 9
10 chutes, and they segue into possible
10
11 replacements for asbestos, but we're not there
11
12 yet.
12
13 BY MR. KRISTAL:
13
14
Q. Read paragraph one to yourself.
14
15
A. Thank you.
15
16
Q. Okay. So you would agree that this
16
17 document is stating that GE is mixing various
17
18 raw materials into a compound which they call
18
19 compound ninety-one, and that compound is then 19
20 molded to make arc chutes, right?
20
21
A. A type of an arc chute. We know that
21
22 just very certain models of - yes, that's what
22
23 this appears to say.
23
24
Q. And they list five particular types of
24
25 arc chutes by model number, right?
25
Page 415
A. Right, number ninety-one asbestos
compound consists of slaked line, flint and
intermediate short asbestos fibers.
Q. Why did you say that it's your
understanding that arc chutes were not
manufactured by GE but that they were purchased
by others -- from others?
A. That's what I recall. I brought this
to attention.
Q. There's nothing that you need to bring
to my attention.
A. I'd like to --
Q. It's not appropriate in a deposition.
MR. SPEZIALI: It's her answer to the
last question.
MR. KRISTAL: There's nothing you need
to bring to my attention. If there's anything I
want you to bring to my attention, I'll ask you.
Counsel can ask whatever questions they want.
MR. SPEZIALI: Let me clarify. The
question is, as I understand it, why did she
say--
MR. KRISTAL: N o -y e s.
MR. SPEZIALI: - arc chutes were not
made by GE.
:
Page 414
1
A. Yeah. It appears to be the case they
1
2 list five separate long numbers.
2
3
Q. Okay. And in the manufacture of those
3
4 types of arc chutes, GE is using, as a raw
4
5 material, asbestos?
5
6
A. Yeah, they're using some asbestos in
6
7 the --that has been incorporated into the GE
7
8 number ninety-one compound.
8
9
Q. And that was done in the Erie,
9
10 Pennsylvania, GE factory. That's item B on the 10
11 second page.
11
12
A. It appears to be, right, having been
12
13 made in Erie, Pennsylvania from this.
13
14
Q. Okay. And what the document is saying 14
15 is that, quote, during the mixing, molding and
15
16 , machining of the ninety-one - the number
16
17 ninety-one asbestos compound, it is obviously
17
18 difficult and expensive to prevent particulate
18
19 pollution of the work area, end quote. Do you
19
20 see that?
20
21
A. I see that you read that sentence, yes.
21
22
Q. Okay. So it's your understanding that
22
23 these arc chutes are made with a compound that 23
24 contains asbestos, right; what they refer to as
24
25 number ninety-one asbestos compound?
25
Page 416
MR. KRISTAL: The question is why did
you say that the arc chutes were not made by GE
but were purchased from others, and she said
that was my recollection, and that was the
answer to tibe question. There's no question
pending.
MR. SPEZIALI: All I want to know is
this: Was what you were about to follow up with
responsive to that or to something else?
THE WITNESS: To something else.
MR. SPEZIALI: We'll deal with that
later.
MR. KAPSHANDY: I'd like to object to i
counsel marking parts o f a document as this is
only an appendix from another document that has
been produced.
MR. KRISTAL: If you wish to mark that
entire document as Exhibit 2 1-A, you can do that
now. We'll put it on the record.
I'm not trying to do anything --when I
travel a long distance and I'm interested in a
particular memo that is a subset and was
j
attached to other memos, I really don't have it
in me to lug this all around the countiy.
So Tim, if you want to mark that as
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
35 (Pages 413 to 416)
Page 417
Page 419
1 21-A, go ahead. We'll make that part of the
1 Authority. That's what the memo says.
2 record. I have no problem with that. Whatever
2
MR. KAPSHANDY: I'm going to object.
3 you want to do in that regard is fine.
3 That is misleading.
4
MR. KAPSHANDY: Thank you.
4
MR. KRISTAL: Is that what the memo is
5
MR. KRISTAL: Do you want to do that?
5 about?
6
MR. KAPSHANDY: Yeah. We'll have to 6
MR. KAPSHANDY: It doesn't say that at
7 get a copy at the break.
7 all. That misstates --
8
MR. KRISTAL: All right. So we're
8
MR. KRISTAL: All you need to do is
9 going to mark -- why don't you just - we'll do
9 object, Tim. And I don't want to get Laraine
10 it when you have it ready to be marked.
10 back on the phone.
11
MR. KAPSHANDY: Great.
11
THE WITNESS: Could you please repeat
12 BY MR. KRISTAL:
12 the question?
13
Q. Turn to page three. And this is now
13
MR. KAPSHANDY: Counsel, for the
14 section B under the candidate of replacement
14 record, you know there's a 30(b)(6) designee for
15 parts, right?
15 transit car products if you had specific
16
A. Section B, status of the candidate
16 questions about whether braking resistor grids
17 replacement materials continued.
17 are used in transit cars.
18
Q. The first section we were talking about
18
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Could you
19 arc chutes, and they start out the discussion by
19 please repeat the question?
20 talking about asbestos-containing arc chutes at
20 BY MR. KRISTAL:
21 the manufacturing, and then they go to discuss
21
Q. Sure. The barrier boards --a hundred
22 other possible arc chutes that don't contain
22 thousand barrier boards per year, is it your
23 asbestos. Is that fair?
23 understanding GE is purchasing them from a
24
A. They talk about non-asbestos arc
24 company called Debco Products from reading this
25 chutes.
25 document?
Page 418
Page 420
1
Q. Right. Then there's another section on
1
A. Somebody is purchasing them.
2 something called barriers, and the first section
2
Q. Well, this is, your understanding, is a
3 reads, quote, approximately a hundred thousand
3 GE memo, is it not?
4 barrier boards per year are purchased from Debco 4
A. I don't know with certainty. I don't.
5 Products who cut fifty inch by ninety-eight inch
5
Q. Do you have an understanding that it's
6 sheet asbestos to the sizes specified in the
6 a GE memo?
7 drawing, end quote. Do you see that?
7
A. It may be, and it's my understanding
8
A. Yes, you read that correctly.
8 that there's an expert that you can speak to.
9
Q. Okay. So is it your understanding that
9
Q. You're very good at picking up on those
10 with respect to the products that are being
10 clues, aren't you?
11 discussed here, the equipment sold to the New
11
MR. KAPSHANDY: It's not her job -
12 York City Transit Authority, that GE is
12
MR. KRISTAL: It's a joke. You were
13 purchasing a hundred thousand asbestos sheet
13 supposed to object, and then you not only
14 boards from another company for use in that
14 object, you then throw it in, she then picks it
15 material -- in that equipment?
15 up.
16
MR. SPEZLALI: Objection.
16
The hundred thousand barrier boards
17
THE WITNESS: Not necessarily.
17 that are referenced here, those are fifty by
18
MR. KRISTAL: Not necessarily? They're 18 ninety-eight inch sheet asbestos, is it not?
19 talking about barriers here, right, in this
19 That's what the document says.
20 paragraph?
20
MR. KAPSHANDY: If you're asking her
21
THE WITNESS: They're talking about
21 personally what the document says. If you're
22 barrier boards.
22 asking her as a 30(b)(6) designee on transit
23
MR. KRISTAL: And barrier boards is an
24 asbestos-containing component that is used in
23 cars, she's not the witness.
24
MR. KRISTAL: You have the right to
25 equipment sold to the New York City Transit
25 make an objection as to form or whatever else
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
36 (Pages 417 to 420)
Page 421
Page 423
1 the special master said, but that was not
1
THE WITNESS: As a health and safety
2 included.
2 expert, this has no relevance to me.
3
MR. KAPSHANDY: I'm asking you to
3
M R KRISTAL: Well, is it relevant to
4 clarify as a matter of courtesy. If you
4 you in your capacity as a GE spokesperson how
5 refuse --
5 much asbestos GE used over the years in terms of
6
MR. KRISTAL: Put on your expert hat or 6 their knowledge about asbestos?
7 your 30(b)(6) hat and tell me which one you're
7
THE WITNESS: You know, in terms of the
8 answering under what's being referenced, a
8 overall company picture and part of the puzzle
9 hundred thousand barrier boards being purchased 9 and how things were handled responsibly
10 from Debco who cut fifty inch by ninety-eight
10 throughout the company.
11 inch sheet asbestos to the sizes specified in
11
MR. KRISTAL: Okay. So you would agree
12 the drawing.
12 a hundred thousand asbestos sheet boards that
13
MR. KAPSHANDY: For the record, I'll
13 are approximately four feet by eight feet per
14 instruct you not to answer as a 30(b)(6)
14 year used by GE is a significant number of
15 designee on transit cars. If as an expert in
15 asbestos sheets?
16 the area of health and safety and industrial
16
MR. SPEZIALI: Objection.
17 hygiene you can answer the question, please go 17
THE WITNESS: I can tell you as a
18 ahead.
18 health and safety professional that this could
19
MR. KRISTAL: Well, in terms of the
19 be sheet board that's totally encapsulated that
20 30(b)(6) in the area of industrial hygiene.
20 has no bearing on any asbestos at all. So I
21
MR. KAPSHANDY: What's your question? 21 don't know.
22
MR. KRISTAL: I'm asking when you just 22
I don't know as --not being an expert
23 said if you could answer as an expert in the area 23 in the transit cars, I don't know what this
24 of industrial hygiene, I could care less what
24 means to them. Again, this means --1can't
25 her opinion is unless it's an expert opinion
25 answer that as a health and safety person. I
Page 422
Page 424
1 that you intend to offer in this case.
1 don't know if that's a lot or a little. It
2
MR. KAPSHANDY: I don't know that she's 2 could be nothing in terms o f--
3 going to rely upon this in offering any opinions
3
(Whereupon, Drucker Exhibit 22, a
4 as a health and safety expert, but I can tell
4 document entitled The Asbestos Problem by
5 you in response to your subpoena, you requested
5 HW Gayek, G-A-Y-E-K, Transportation Equipment
6 at the last deposition to bring all documents
6 Products Department, Erie, Pennsylvania, was
7 that she's reviewed. She's brought them, and
7 then received and marked for identification.)
8 some of them may relate to her expert testimony
8
MR. KRISTAL: Okay. Let me give you
9 and some of them may not.
9 Exhibit 22, which I think is from the same
10
MR. SPEZIALI: We don't plan on relying
10 bigger document, but it's entitled The Asbestos
11 on this document.
11 Problem by HW Gayek, G-A-Y-E-K, Transportation
12
MR. KAPSHANDY: But we brought them in 12 Equipment Products Department, Erie,
13 the interest of being open and giving you
13 Pennsylvania. This is one of the documents that
14 everything that she reviewed and relied upon.
14 were provided to you by GE Florida.
15
MR. KRISTAL: Did you read this
15
M R KAPSHANDY: It's page ten of some
16 document?
16 document, Counsel.
17
THE WITNESS: I read it.
17
MR. KRISTAL: It may have been part of
18
MR. KRISTAL: What does this paragraph 18 that other document.
19 mean to you in terms of GE's use of asbestos
19
MR SPEZIALI: It's not. I can tell
20 sheet barrier boards?
20 you that for the record.
21
M R KAPSHANDY: We're not offering her 21
MR KRISTAL: It's in one ofthe boxes
22 as an expert in what they, what they used in
22 here. That's about as good as I can provide
23 what transit car products. If it has some
23 you.
24 significance to you as a health and safety
24
MR. SPEZIALI: We'll object to using
25 expert, maybe it does.
25 the document. I'll see if I can find the rest
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
37 (Pages 421 to 424)
Page 425
1 of it.
1
2
MR. KAPSHANDY: I'll look for it, too.
2
3
MR. SPEZIALI: Transportation Equipment 3
4 Products Department, Erie, Pennsylvania.
4
5
MR. KRISTAL: It's in the same group as
5
6 the last one because that's also the GE
6
7 Equipment Transportation.
7
8 BY MR. KRISTAL:
8
9
Q. First of all, this is a document that
9
10 was provided to you by the GE lawyers?
10
11
A. I don't know where this came from, so
11
12 if you say it was part of these -
12
13
Q. I can represent to you as an officer of
13
14 the Court that it was printed off the CDs that
14
15 were sent to me of the documents that you
15
16 reviewed that had been sent to you by the GE
16
17 lawyers.
17
18
The first sentence reads, quote, for
18
19 about the past year we, in the transportation
19
20 equipment products department, have been engaged 20
21 in a project aimed at identifying substitutes
21
22 for asbestos materials used in our products, end
22
23 quote. Do you see that?
23
24
A. Yes, you read that correctly.
24
25
Q. Did you speak to anybody at the GE
25
Page 427
of that. A. My understanding is that there is a
person who can address that. Q. So you have no understanding? A. Well, that's my understanding. Q. I'm not asking you about who can
address that question. I'm asking about your understanding of the subject matter. Do you have an understanding of the subject matter as to which or anything about any of those twelve hundred parts drawings calling for asbestos materials?
A. When you say to me - this is really taking something, I think, totally out of context. The twelve hundred parts could be twelve hundred parts in fifty thousand different types of pieces of equipment. I don't know. This is totally -
Q. My point is you don't know anything about that?
A. I haven't seen the rest of the document, for one thing. You put one piece of paper in front of me.
Q. Can you tell me A. No. Let me finish. Why are you
Page 426
Page 428
1 transportation equipment products department
1 laughing?
2 about that subject?
2
Q. Because this is turning into a joke.
3
A. No.
3
MR. KAPSHANDY: She's asked for the
4
Q. Did you speak to Mr. or Ms. Gayek?
4 entire document. If you can provide it, tell us
5
A. No, I did not.
5 where it came from.
6
Q. The fourth paragraph down reads, quote,
6
MR. KRISTAL: I just told you where it
7 in our study we identified and reviewed some
7 came from.
8 twelve hundred parts drawings calling for
8
MR. KAPSHANDY: It's not in there.
9 asbestos materials, end quote. Do you see that?
9
MR. KRISTAL: It is what it is.
10
A. Yes, you read that correctly.
10
MR. KAPSHANDY: Well, it's a part of a
11
Q. Did you speak to anybody about that?
11 document that she's asked for the rest of it, so
12
A. No, not about that specifically, no, I
12 we can't proceed any further if that's what it
13 did not.
13 is.
14
Q. Do you have an understanding as to any
14
MR. KRISTAL: We can proceed as far as
15 or all of the twelve hundred parts that call for
15 we can.
16 asbestos materials that were used in the
16
Did you ask anybody, did you do any
17 transportation equipment products department at 17 research, did you look into anything involving
18 G E -
18 the twelve hundred parts drawings calling for
19
A. W e ll-
19 asbestos materials referenced in this document?
20
Q. --to start with?
20 You either did that or you didn't do it.
21
A. As I said before, it's my understanding
21
THE WITNESS: I said no, no, I did not.
22 that there is an expert who can discuss if,
22
MR. KRISTAL: Okay. Then that's your
23 where, models, years and so forth that may have 23 answer. The next document from the same series
24 contained asbestos parts.
24 is Exhibit 23. It's in the TEPD, wherever that
25
Q. I'm asking if you have an understanding
25 series of documents is located. Something
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
38 (Pages 425 to 428)
Page 429
Page 431 r
1 called a US. Does that mean anything to you?
1 complete document of which Exhibit 22 is
2
MR. KAPSHANDY: No.
2 contained.
3
MR. KRISTAL: That's what it says on
3
MR. SPEZIALI: Okay.
4 the document.
4 BY MR. KRISTAL:
5
(Whereupon, Drucker Exhibit 23, page
5
Q. Having read the complete document are
6 two of a results summary for the TEPD, was then 6 any questions or any answers to the questions
7 received and marked for identification.)
7 that you provided for 22 any different?
8 BY MR. KRISTAL:
8
22-A, for the record, is a -- it's
9
Q. Exhibit 23 is page two of a results
9 entitled Transportation Systems Business
;
10 summary for the TEPD. It says typical annual
10 Division. It has General Electric up top with
11 usage, all asbestos materials. Do you see that?
11 the logo, technical information series. The
12
A. I see that's what's written on there; a
12 title of the entire document is Arc, A-R-C,
13 piece of paper.
13 Interruption Conference 1977, and the date is
14
Q. This was a document sent to you by the
14 11/25/77, and it's a compilation of a variety of
15 General Electric attorneys?
15 documents. And Exhibit 22 is a portion of
16
A. I don't know.
16 those.
17
MR. KRISTAL: Let's take a break.
17
Anything about my questioning regarding
18 Let's find the original of the document. We'll
18 the twelve hundred parts drawings calling for
19 give it to you and then we'll move forward.
19 asbestos now that you've seen the whole 22 and
20
(Discussion off the record.)
20 all the materials?
21
(Whereupon, Drucker Exhibit 22-A, the
21
A. Yeah. It appears from the document in
22 entire document that contains Exhibits 22 and
22 its entirety that they pulled together people
23 23, was then received and marked for
23 from all over the company to study certain
24 identification.)
24 issues, this being one of the - asbestos being
25
MR. KRISTAL: Okay. We're going to
25 one of them.
Page 430
Page 432
1 mark as Exhibit 22-A the entire document that
1
And it appears to me in looking at the
2 contains Exhibits 22 and 23, and if you could
2 document that there are certain critical uses of
3 give that to Ms. Drucker for her to look at
3 asbestos as part of these products. So that it
4 since she needs to look at the whole document.
4 seems that in all instances, substitute
5
MR. KAPSHANDY: Have we marked 22 and 5 materials are not available or not readily
6 23?
6 available.
7
MR. KRISTAL: 23 is holding. 22 is a
7
And so one thing that this added to me
8 prior exhibit.
8 is that the company is studying ways to further
9
MR. KAPSHANDY: What's 22-A?
9 get out of asbestos, but there are some very
10
MR. KRISTAL: They're separately
10 critical aspects that they just can't get out of
11 marked, but you're telling me that they are
11 at the time o f this conference, so they're
12 pages from 22-A. That's that I'm understanding
12 studying it.
13 you to say.
13
Q. And one of the things that was
14
MR. KAPSHANDY: Right.
14 presented at this conference was the fact that
15
MR. KRISTAL: Okay.
15 there were twelve hundred parts drawings for
16
THE WITNESS: I haven't seen it.
16 different parts that contained asbestos for this
17
MR. SPEZIALI: That one came from --
17 particular type of product?
18 that one is in there.
18
A. Yeah. My understanding is that some of
19
THE WITNESS: Not this one.
19 these parts can be veiy tiny parts.
20
MR. KAPSHANDY: Let's see. There's a
20
Q. Where did you get that understanding
21 different three-part number.
21 from?
22
MR. SPEZIALI: Do you want to do 22
22
A. Because I, I've read documents and
23 first?
23 I've, I've seen documents that indicate that
24
MR. KRISTAL: No. All we need to do is 24 some of these -- some of the equipment that they
25 state that for the record Exhibit 22-A is the
25 put together was thousands and thousands and
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
39 (Pages 429 to 432)
Page 433
1 thousands of parts.
1
2
So the fact that there might be some
2
3 parts, small little parts of twelve hundred, it
3
4 could be insignificant in terms of the finished
4
5 product or finished products. Again, I would
5
6 have to refer you to the person who was most
6
7 knowledgeable about this.
7
8
Q. So you don't know one way or another?
8
9
A. Ido. I just told you.
9
10
Q. Well, you don't know if the twelve
10
11 hundred parts that contain asbestos that are
11
12 referenced here are big, small, medium? You
12
13 don't know which parts they are? You don't
13
14 anything about them?
14
15
MR. SPEZIALI: Objection.
15
16 BY MR. KRISTAL:
16
17
Q. Do you?
17
18
A. Yeah.
18
19
Q. Tell me which parts of those twelve
19
20 hundred that are, in your mind, small; the
20
21 twelve hundred asbestos-containing parts.
21
22
A. That's not exactly what your question
22
23 was.
23
24
Q. That's now my question. That's my
24
25 question.
25
Page 435
Q. Who was that? A. I don't recall his name. Q. And in the key words on the title page of this, asbestos is listed as a key word on this document, right? A. Right. Q. Okay.
A. It's listed as a key word, among many other key words, on this piece of paper.
Q. Okay. Can you tell me anything other than what you've already said about the twelve hundred parts that contained asbestos?
A. Well, if you ask me a question, perhaps I can answer it.
Q. Do you know what years they were manufactured? Do you know how much asbestos they had? Do you know the specific size of any of them? Do you know the type of asbestos that was put in them? Do you know how they were manufactured?
MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. THE WITNESS: We know that some are non-critical, some were semi-critical and some were critical. So that speaks to me that were certain ~ some that had to be used but they
Page 434
1
MR. SPEZIALI: Objection.
1
2 BY MR. KRISTAL:
2
3
Q. Tell me which of the twelve hundred
3
4 parts that contain asbestos that are referenced
4
5 in Exhibit 22 are, in your mind, small.
5
6
A. From this I can't tell which are small.
6
7
Q. Okay. Can you tell from any other
7
8 source specifically which ones are small?
8
9
A. But I can tell you that in general,
9
10 having read documents and about just general
10
11 information knowing how many thousands of parts 11
12 may be in any given type of piece of equipment
12
13 just in general that, that this twelve hundred
13
14 might really be taking these out of context.
14
15
That's all I'm saying, that this twelve
15
16 hundred could be totally small parts,
16
17 insignificant in the total picture or pictures
17
18 of various types of transit cars. So I would
18
19 urge you for the sake of context to speak to the
19
20 person who is most knowledgeable in that way.
20
21
Q. Did you speak to the person about that
21
22 or anybody else at GE about that?
22
23
A. As I recall, I read a deposition by a
23
24 person who was designated as knowledgeable about 24
25 that.
25
Page 436
were required to be used. So that I know as of this date and this document.
MR. KRISTAL: Okay. Anything else? THE WITNESS: It depends on what you ask.
MR. KRISTAL: I'm asking you if there's anything else on the question that I just asked. I'm trying to get a complete answer.
MR. SPEZIALI: Objection. THE WITNESS: I think I would refer you to the person who's most knowledgeable about these. MR. KRISTAL: Okay. Do we have 23-A? MR. KAPSHANDY: Yes. It's part of E-15, and it's subfolder seven. MR. KRISTAL: We're going to mark as 23-A a document which is a collection of documents from which 23 came. And why don't you look at that and hold it out to Ms. Drucker and I'll ask you some questions about 23. MR. SPEZIALI: We'll take a break after this one. MR. KRISTAL: Okay. THE WITNESS: Yes. (Whereupon, Drucker Exhibit 23-A, a
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
40 (Pages 433 to 436)
Page 437
Page 439
1 collection of documents from which 23 came, was 1 BY MR. KRISTAL:
2 then received and marked for identification.)
2
Q. It has the total was six hundred
3 BY MR. KRISTAL:
3 thousand pounds a year. Three hundred tons a
4
Q. Exhibit 23-A is dated February 7th,
4 year. Is that what the document says?
5 1977. It's another Transportation Systems
5
A. Yes, that's what's listed on page two.
6 Business Division of GE, technical information
6
Q. Okay. Do you have any reason to
7 series. The subject is entitled, quote,
7 disagree with that?
8 Asbestos Materials, end quote. The title is,
8
A. No. Again, I'll just accept that as
9 quote, Asbestos Materials Usage and Applications 9 what it says.
10 in GE Transportation Equipment Products, end
10
Q. Okay.
11 quote. And the author is HW Gayek, G-A-Y-E-K. 11
MR. KRISTAL: Why don't we take a break
12
And the summary page begins with the
12 and we'll come back after lunch. Is that all
13 following, quote, significant quantities of
13 right with everyone?
14 asbestos materials are used currently in the
14
(Whereupon, a recess was then taken.)
15 products of the transportation equipment
15
(Whereupon, Drucker Exhibit 24, a memo
16 products department, end quote. Do you see that 16 dated November 11th, 1971 from Dr. Elkins to
17 first sentence?
17 Mr. Grady, the subject being General Electric
18
A. Yes, you read that correctly.
18 Company, Building 36, Pittsfield, was then
19
Q. Did you agree, disagree, have no
19 received and marked for identification.)
20 opinion on that subject?
20 BY MR. KRISTAL:
21
A. I'll take it for face value.
21
Q. Marking as Exhibit 24 a memo dated
22
Q. Okay. And in it they discuss the
22 November 11th, 1971 from Dr. Elkins to a
23 number of tons and pounds of the various
23 Mr. Grady. The subject is General Electric
24 asbestos materials that are used by the
24 Company, Building 36, Pittsfield. And this is
25 Transportation Equipment Products Department, do 25 one of the documents that GE lawyers provided to
Page 438
Page 440
1 they not, in Exhibit 23-A?
1 you and which you reviewed as part of your
2
A. If I could see that copy, please.
2 project?
3
Q. Sure.
3
A. Yes, I did.
4
A. The question was --
4
Q. And Exhibit 24 is the memo that I just
5
Q. They discuss the amount by weight, the
5 mentioned with an attached report to Dr. Elkins
6 pounds and tons, of various asbestos materials
6 dated November 5th, 1971, and the subject is the
7 that are used by the Transportation Equipment
7 General Electric Company, Building 36,
8 Product Department?
8 Pittsfield, and it notes that there was a visit
9
A. Yes, they list that on page two.
9 October 13th, 1971. Is that, correct?
10
Q. Right, which is number 23, which I have 10
A. Yes. A visit by the state, yes.
11 pulled out of this larger document, 23-A. And
11
Q. Okay. And Mr. Robert Cunningham, the
12 they reference, on page four, the types of
12 manager of personnel, was interviewed at the
13 materials that contain asbestos that are used,
13 time of the visit by the state, right?
14 and they list asbestos paper, sheet packing,
14
A. Yes, that's what it says.
15 asbestos cloth, asbestos lumber, and they say
15
Q. Okay. And is it your understanding
16 sheets and thicknesses from one-eighth inch to
16 Mr. Cunningham was a GE employee?
17 two inches, and they have asbestos plates. Do
17
A. I took it that way, yes.
18 you see that?
18
Q. And Mr. Grady, to whom this was sent,
19
A. Yes, I see that listed.
19 was a GE employee; to whom the report was sent?
20
MR. SPEZIALI: Where do you see
20
A. I don't know if Mr. Grady is a GE
21 asbestos plates? I see.
21 employee.
22
MR. KRISTAL: And the pounds per year 22
Q. Did you ask anybody?
23 that are used in annual usage was estimated on
23
A. No, I didn't.
24 Exhibit 23. Let me find it in 23-A.
24
Q. Did you ask the GE lawyers where they
25
MR. KAPSHANDY: It's page two.
25 got this document from?
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
41 (Pages 437 to 440)
Page 441
Page 443
1
A. Yes.
1
Q. But at least on this occasion they were
2
Q. Where did they get the document from?
2 dumping as much as eight hundred pounds of
3
A. It's my understanding they did a
3 asbestos at one time.
4 freedom of information search of several states.
4
A. It said they sometimes dump as much as
5 This was one from Massachusetts, and this was
5 eight hundred pounds of asbestos from
6 from the State of Massachusetts.
6 one-hundred-pound bags into cardboard drums.
7
Q. Okay. And what's your understanding -
7
Q. Okay. And the product they were making
8 strike that.
8 here was a phenolic resin that contained
9
They were investigating mixing
9 asbestos?
10 operations in which raw asbestos was being
10
A. Yes.
11 dumped into mixers at this GE facility, correct? 11
Q. So GE was taking various raw materials
12
A. Yeah. At this facility they were
12 and manufacturing an asbestos-containing
13 mixing asbestos, occasionally dumping it. There 13 product?
14 wasn't a continual operation.
14
A. Yeah. I mentioned that before. This
15
Q. Well, they would dump it as they needed 15 was where they were making Genal, and that was
16 to make the product they were making, right?
16 made from a period of the '20s to '72 when
17
A. According to this -- let me read this a
17 asbestos was completely phased out, and not all
18 second. If you read this in combination with
18 Genal contained asbestos.
19 other surveys made by the State of
19
We have IH, industrial hygiene, data of
20 Massachusetts, it's described that this is an
20 the use of Genal, and all the data shows that
21 occasional-type thing. It's not a continual
21 everything was within applicable permissible
22 operation, nor is it continual with asbestos.
22 exposure limits at the time.
23 It's just done on occasion.
23
Q. Move to strike the non-responsive
24
Q. Are you saying that it's your
24 portion of that answer.
25 understanding from reading documents that the 25
When you say that it was your
Page 442
Page 444
1 dumping of asbestos into these mixers at the
1 understanding that the asbestos was only used
2 Pittsfield GE facility at this time was only
2 occasionally in Building 32 and 36, do you mean
3 done occasionally?
3 on that day it was only used occasionally? Do
4
A. I was at Pittsfield at this time. I
4 you mean --how far back was it only used
5 was at --this was one of my plants in November 5 occasionally?
6 of 1971, and it is my understanding, both from
6
A. How far back in time?
7 state reports and from what I saw personally,
7
Q. How far back in time do you have an
8 that this was done occasionally.
8 understanding that asbestos in Buildings 32 and
9
Q. So part of your understanding of how
9 36 at Pittsfield prior to this November 1971
10 frequent or infrequent the raw asbestos was
10 time frame was asbestos only used occasionally?
11 being dumped is from state reports similar to
11
A. Well, it's my understanding that Genal,
12 this? Is that what you're saying?
12 its phenolic product that contained asbestos,
13
A. Well, part of it, yeah. As I said, if
13 was made there from the 1920s up through 1972.
14 you read all the state reports, they describe
14
Q. And was the use of asbestos, in your
15 that this was an occasional-type operation, and
15 understanding, being reduced as time went on or
16 that was my understanding when I was there
16 increased or stayed the same or you don't know?
17 myself on several occasions in Pittsfield at
17 I'm talking about in these buildings for that
18 this time.
18 product.
19
Q. What do you mean by occasional?
19
A. I don't know how they were decreased
20
A. I --maybe I should look up the other
20 over time. I know that it was a big priority to
21 surveys and give you their description of that.
21 the company, in fact, the company president, to
22
Q. When, when you say other surveys, you
22 go asbestos free in Genal, which they did in
23 mean other state surveys done of Pittsfield at
23 '72. And everybody was happy when they did
24 Building 36?
24 not have to use that as part of the constituents
25
A. Buildings 32 and 36, yes.
25 of the product.
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
42 (Pages 441 to 444)
Page 445
1
Q. So in answer to my question, was it a
1
2 decreasing use from the '20s up until '72 in
2
3 this facility?
3
4
A. I'd have to check reports for that to
4
5 give you more information. I'd have to go back
5
6 and look at some of the industrial hygiene
6
7 surveys.
7
8
Q. In any event, it's not your
8
9 understanding that the use of asbestos as an
9
10 ingredient, the raw material, at Pittsfield was
10
11 increasing over the years?
11
12
A. I'm not led to believe that. I don't
12
13 think that's the case. To understand its -- how
13
14 frequently it was used and the amounts, I might 14
15 get more information from the industrial hygiene 15
16 reports.
16
17
(Whereupon, Drucker Exhibit 25, an
17
18 October 26th, 1970 memo, was then received and 18
19 marked for identification.)
19
20 BY MR. KRISTAL:
20
21
Q. I'll mark as Exhibit 25 an October
21
22 26th, 1970 memo from Dr. Elkins to Mr. Grady, 22
23 and the subject, General Electric Company in
23
24 Pittsfield, and attached to it is an October
24
25 14th, 1970 memo, and the subject is General
25
Page 447
A. Yes, into, into ventilated mixer feeds, yes.
Q. And then in the next paragraph it says, a total o f approximately four million pounds of asbestos will be used at this location during 1970. Do you see that sentence?
A. Yes, you read that correctly. Q. That to you is an occasional use of asbestos, four million pounds in a year? A. Yes, it is. The way they describe the process it is occasional. They describe the different total weights of the batches, and yes, that was my understanding, that it was not a continuous-type operation. It was done intermittently, not continually. Q. Well, four million pounds is two thousand tons, right? A. Yes. Q. And if there are three hundred sixty-five days in a year or fifty-two weeks in a year, let's say that Pittsfield facility was closed on weekends and there were holidays involved, so let's say two hundred fifty work days. Is that a reasonable estimate?
MR. SPEZIALI: I object.
Page 446
Page 448
1 Electric Company, Building 36, Pittsfield,
1
MR. KRISTAL: I want you to assume that
2 persons interviewed, Mr. Ernest Laskovic, safety 2 there was approximately two hundred and fifty
3 engineer, and Mr. Carl Lambert, process
3 work days.
4 engineer, and the date of the visit was
4
THE WITNESS: Okay. Two hundred fifty
5 September 29th, 1970.
5 work days.
6
And my question is, is that another
6
MR. KRISTAL: Okay. And in the year
7 report with respect to - at least another
7 1970, according to the numbers here, that would
8 survey with respect to Building 36 for
8 be eight tons of asbestos a day was being used
9 Pittsfield making this Genal product with
9 at that facility, correct?
10 asbestos, correct?
10
MR. KAPSHANDY: Objection. That's
11
A. Yes.
11 misleading.
12
Q. And this was one of the ones that you
12
MR. KRISTAL: I'm just doing math.
13 were referring to earlier when you said you had 13 It's very hard to be misleading.
14 read other reports from that building?
14
MR. KAPSHANDY: There's a lot of things
15
A. Yes, I had. Yes, this is one of them
15 that are misleading in that, and I won't get
16 that I was thinking about, yes.
16 into it to avoid the talking objection.
17
Q. Okay. And if you look at the report
17
MR. KRISTAL: So just object to the
18 dated October 14th, 1970, it says in the second
18 form if you want.
19 paragraph that a total of eleven mixing stations
19
MR. KAPSHANDY: You said it wasn't
20 are located in this building of which nine are
20 misleading. I say it is.
21 in use. Do you see that?
21
MR. KRISTAL: Okay.
22
A. Yes, I see you read that, yes.
22
MR. KAPSHANDY: But given those
23
Q. And then it reads that asbestos is
23 assumptions, go ahead and answer if you can.
24 dumped into ventilated mixer feeds from
24
THE WITNESS: We're talking about two
25 hundred pound bags, right?
25 thousand tons a year.
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
43 (Pages 445 to 448)
Page 449
1
MR. KRISTAL: Divided by two hundred
1
A. I said I was aware of this.
Page 451
2 fifty days, eight tons of asbestos a day.
2
Q. Okay. So at the time in 1970, '71 time
3
THE WITNESS: Yes, if you do the math.
3 frame, you physically had Exhibit 27 and 28. Is
4 Eight tons of asbestos per day put into
4 that what you're saying?
5 ventilated mixers.
5
A. I had seen the reports. Whether - I'd
6
MR. KRISTAL: Right. And that, to you,
6 seen the reports. That's what I said to you.
7 is occasional use of asbestos?
7
Q. And you had seen them in your capacity
8
MR. KAPSHANDY: Objection. It's
8 as a GE employee?
9 misleading. You're missing ~ this is a waste
9
A. Yes.
10 of time.
10
Q. Did you speak to anybody at the time
11
THE WITNESS: As I mentioned before,
11 about the approximately four million pounds of
12 this is one of the plants I had and I went to on
12 asbestos used at this location during 1970 as is
13 several occasions. This isn't something that
13 written in Exhibit 28?
14 they did on a continual basis. They mixed up
14
A. Yes. It was one of my locations, and
15 batches at various points in time, and it wasn't
15 as I mentioned to you in our last occasion, that
16 a continual-type operation.
16 I worked very closely with one of the medical
17
MR. KRISTAL: So there were days when
17 physicians at GE when I was the industrial
18 they were using less than eight tons and days
18 hygienist for many plants including this one.
19 when they were using more than eight tons?
19
Q. So your answer is back at the time,
20
MR. KAPSHANDY: Objection. Misleading. 20 1970, '71, you spoke to someone at GE about the
21 Assuming, as you did, that they weren't working
21 approximately four million pounds of asbestos
22 all the time -
22 referenced in this report?
23
MR. KRISTAL: All you need to say is
23
A. Well, as I said, as I sit here right
24 objection, Tim. If we need to get Laraine back
24 now I don't recall if I mentioned that number.
25 on the phone, it's a very easy phone call to
25 I certainly recall speaking about the use of
Page 450
1 make.
1
2
THE WITNESS: The question again?
2
3
MR. KRISTAL: Sometimes they were using 3
4 more than eight tons, and some days they were
4
5 using less than eight tons?
5
6
MR. KAPSHANDY: Assuming his
6
7 assumptions.
7
8
THE WITNESS: Taking your math, yes. I 8
9 don't know if that's actually the case, but I'll
9
10 just take those numbers as they are if you want
10
11 to do the math.
11
12 BY MR. KRISTAL:
12
13
Q. Did you know Mr. Laskovic or
13
14 Mr. Lambert from GE?
14
15
A. Not that I recall.
15
16
Q. Okay. Did you know at the time that
16
17 these inspections were being done in the
17
18 Pittsfield plant?
18
19
A. Yes.
19
20
Q. Did you speak to Dr. Elkins or anybody
20
21 else from the state regarding these inspections? 21
22
A. Not with regard to these. I know
22
23 Dr. Elkins. I knew him. But no, not with
23
24 regard to these inspections. I had his reports.
24
25
Q. So you had these reports?
25
Page 452
asbestos at that location. Q. And then the Exhibit 28 goes on. The
next sentence after the 1970 time frame is, quote, it is expected that approximately five million pounds will be used during 1971, end quote. Do you see that?
A. I saw that sentence that you read, yes. Q. Okay. And you read it at the time? A. Yes, I was aware of that. Q. Now, when - did you - strike that.
Who was it, the medical person, that you spoke to about this report?
A. The medical person? Q. AtGE. A. The medical person with whom I worked at GE was Dr. George Martalon. Q. Okay. Now, on page two, first full paragraph, quote, due to the low ventilation rates and the toxicity of asbestos, approved respirators should be worn by the employee employees during any handling of the asbestos, end quote. Do you see that? A. Yes, I see that you read that, yes. Q. Did you concur with that statement at the time?
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
44 (Pages 449 to 452)
Page 453
Page 455 /
1
A. Yes, I did. And what else I recall at
1 27 or 24?
i
2 that plant specifically was that we were having
2
MR. KRISTAL: We marked the documents i
3 a very difficult time getting the people to wear
3 as Exhibit 24 and 25. In the context of a
1
4 respirators; that they were available but that
4 question I may have referred to them as 27 and j
5 it was being -- that they were - that it was
5 28, so I'd just like to correct the transcript.
6 veiy, very difficult to get them to wear the
6 There's nothing different in your answers if I
;
7 respirators even though they were available.
7 got it wrong?
;
8
Q. What was your understanding at the time
8
THE WITNESS: No.
;
9 as to the four million pounds of asbestos that's
9
MR. KRISTAL: Okay.
10 referenced here?
10
MR. SPEZIALI: There might be.
11
MR. SPEZIALI: Understanding about
11
THE WITNESS: If you want to go back
>
12 what?
12 over the questions, we can.
;
13
MR. KAPSHANDY: That it weighed four 13
(Whereupon, Drucker Exhibit 26, a
14 million tons?
14 document dated August 5th, 1969 from Dr. Elkins ;
15
MR. KRISTAL: What they were referring 15 to Mr. Sinclair, was then received and marked
16 to there.
16 for identification.)
17
THE WITNESS: I don't know what you're 17 BY M R KRISTAL:
18 asking.
18
Q. I have no such desire unless you feel
19
MR. KRISTAL: I'm asking what your
19 there's a need to.
20 understanding is of that sentence, quote, a
20
A. No, that's okay.
i
21 total of approximately four million pounds of
21
Q. Okay. Drucker 26 dated August 5th,
22 asbestos will be used at this location during
22 1969, and it's from Dr. Elkins to a
23 1970, unquote.
23 Mr. Sinclair, and it references a copy of a
24
MR. SPEZIALI: Objection.
24 report that was done with respect to, in part,
25
THE WITNESS: I took it at face value.
25 asbestos from the Lowell facility, does it not?
Page 454
1 I took it a total of approximately four million
1
2 pounds of asbestos will be used at this location
2
3 during 1970. I know that it was phased out
3
4 there in '72. And that was, that was it.
4
5 BY MR. KRISTAL:
5
6
Q. Okay. Did you have any
6
7 responsibility - strike that.
7
8
You were not at GE in 1969, right?
8
9
A. Yes, right.
9
10
Q. You were or you were not?
10
11
A. I was not.
11
12
Q. And at Lowell GE what was being
12
13 manufactured--wait a minute. Hang on. What 13
14 number did I give that?
14
15
MR. SPEZIALI: 25.
15
16
MR. KRISTAL: Okay.
16
17
MR. KAPSHANDY: I think we're okay.
17
18
MR. KRISTAL: I think we're okay but I
18
19 think I referred to them as 28 and 27 earlier.
19
20 I should have referred to them as 24 and 25. If
20
21 there's any problem, can we just correct the
21
22 transcript. When I referenced documents,
22
23 Ms. Drucker was looking at the document, I was 23
24 looking at the document, I just called it --
24
25
MR. KAPSHANDY: Say 26, does that mean 25
Page 456
A. Okay. I'm sorry. Could we have that one back?
Q. Sure. The document refers to a study that was done by the state at the GE facility in Lowell and, in part, references asbestos?
A. Yes. They took dust counts for asbestos which revealed concentrations which averaged below the maximum allowable concentration.
Q. And the next to the last paragraph says, quote, recommendations are made for use of respirators for highly toxic dusts by workers exposed to asbestos and for the housekeeping at the K and M machines, end quote. Do you see that?
A. Yes, I do. Q. And with respect to the recommendation for respirators for the Pittsfield plant, they would be for the same type of respirators; i.e., for highly toxic dusts? A. Well, I'm assuming that they would have been for dusts. As you know, the types of respirators that were approved for dusts such as asbestos changed over time.
There were, for a long period of time,
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
45 (Pages 453 to 456)
Page 457
Page 459
1 disposable dust respirators acceptably used.
1 document if you'd like to have me look at it.
2 When you're saying for highly toxic dusts, I
2
MR. KRISTAL: In order to say whether
3 don't know which type of respirators they're
3 this is part of a larger document that was sent
4 referring to. They changed over time.
4 to you by the GE lawyers you need to see the
5
Q. But at the time - first of all, I move
5 whole document?
6 to strike the non-responsive portion of that.
6
THE WITNESS: Yes.
7
For the time when you were aware there
7
MR. KRISTAL: Okay.
8 was a recommendation that you agreed with with 8
MR. SPEZIALI: Off the record.
9 respect to the respirators, and reading the
9
(Discussion off the record.)
10 sentence from Exhibit 25 --
10
MR. KAPSHANDY: For the record, it's
11
MR- KAPSHANDY: Previously referred to 11 E-l 6, asbestos documents from CEP libraiy files;
12 as 27?
12 potentially one of two documents, looks like
13
MR. KRISTAL: No. That was actually
13 there are two different versions. One is
14 previously referred to as 28.
14 slightly different, but the same title.
15
MR. KAPSHANDY: As long as we're clear. 15
MR. KRISTAL: One is fifty-seven. This
16
MR. KRISTAL: Quote, due to the low
16 must be this one. This is, this is only
17 ventilation rates and the toxicity of asbestos,
17 thirty-two pages. We'll mark that as 27-A at
18 approved respirators should be worn by the
18 some point.
19 employees during any handling of the asbestos,
19 BY MR. KRISTAL:
20 end quote.
20
Q. That's the fifty-seven page document of
21
So you knew that you had --you knew at
21 which Exhibit 27 came from and is page twelve
22 the time that the approved respirators had to be 22 of?
23 the type that were not just for nuisance dust.
23
A. Yes.
24
A. That's what I'm saying, that those
25 types o f respirators changed over time, and that
24
Q. What's your understanding of the GE
25 extranet?
Page 458
Page 460
1 for a long period o f time the type of respirator
1
A. I don't know.
2 that was for nuisance - an approved respirator
2
Q. Do you know where this document came
3 for nuisance dust was also approved for
3 from; the website that's listed at the bottom?
4 asbestos. I just want to make sure that we're
4
A. Other than the website listed at the
5 talking about the same thing here.
5 bottom, no, I don't.
6
Q. Move to strike the non-responsive
7 portions of that answer.
8
(Whereupon, Drucker Exhibit 27, page
6
Q. Okay. Under properties at the bottom
7 of Exhibit 27, it says warning properties. Do
8 you see that?
9 twelve of fifty-seven pages from a website, was
9
A. Yes.
10 then received and marked for identification.)
10
Q. And it says, quote, asbestos is
11
MR. KRISTAL: Exhibit 27 is page twelve 11 odorless and generally non-irritating.
12 of fifty-seven pages from some website, and this 12 Accordingly, asbestos should be regarded as
13 was part of the materials that were provided to
13 having inadequate warning properties, end quote.
14 you and then provided to me by the GE lawyers. 14 Do you see that?
15 And what's your understanding on the bottom?
15
A. I do. And I can tell you that in
16 Theaddressiscep.corporate.ge.com. CEP is
16 general this document is meant for health and
17 corporate environmental something or other?
17 safety professionals, and that type of warning
18
THE WITNESS: It's my understanding
18 and this wording means something to health and
19 that would be corporate environmental programs 19 safety professionals.
20 at GE, yes.
20
MR. SPEZIALI: Objection.
21
MR. KRISTAL: This is part of one of
21
MR. KRISTAL: Meaning that the
22 the documents that you reviewed?
22 substance itself doesn't give any indication
23
MR. SPEZIALI: This is page twelve of
23 that it could be dangerous?
24 fifty-seven.
24
THE WITNESS: Meaning that it doesn't
25
THE WITNESS: I'd have to see the whole 25 have certain types of warning properties such as
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
46 (Pages 457 to 460)
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1 odor or things of that nature.
1
2
MR.KRISTAL: All right. Exhibit 2 8 -
2
3
MR. SPEZLALI: I just noted something.
3
4 There is identifying information on the back
4
5 page of it. It says asbestos United States -
5
6 bear with me one second. I don't know if you
6
7 want that on the record or not.
7
8
MR. KRISTAL: At the end, I don't know,
8
9 it says words, what this is, Asbestos
9
10 parentheses, United States, close parentheses,
10
11 1998 by Jonathan Oreck & Company, 234 Church 11
12 Street, New Haven, Connecticut.
12
13
(Whereupon, Drucker Exhibit 28, a
13
14 document entitled GE Power Generation, Sales and 14
15 Services Operations, with the GE logo, Asbestos 15.
16 Management Training Participants Book, Company 16
17 Proprietary Information, was then received and
17
18 marked for identification.)
18
19 BY MR. KRISTAL:
19
20
Q. But in any event, this document was
20
21 found on a GE corporate environmental website, 21
22 right? Fm asking you.
22
23
A. Yeah. It appears to be something
23
24 prepared by health and safety professionals for
24
25 health and safety professionals.
25
Page 463
Q. Sure. Let me check the back and see if there's something that would help. I don't see a date. The only thing that appears to be dated are some of the TILs which we have previously discussed which are from 1990 which would obviously indicate it's probably sometime thereafter because it would hard pressed to be before.
A. Post -- Q. Tell me what you're trying to do. A. I was trying to match up the permissible exposure limits with the dates, and this has a permissible exposure limit o f '86 and yet the technical information letter is -- Q. November o f '89? A. - is before --it was changed to '94. All right. Okay. Q. So it's probably sometime between 19 end of 1989 and 1994? A. Between'86 and'94. Q. Okay. Turn to the second page of Exhibit 28. A. Yes. Q. There's a section entitled diseases related to asbestos. Do you see that?
Page 462
Page 464
1
Q. Okay. Exhibit 28 is part of that same
1
A. I do.
2 larger document that we had discussed earlier
2
Q. And it says, quote, asbestos is a slow
3 which is E-17 which is entitled ACM Manuals.
3 acting or chronic toxin, parentheses, versus
4 It's called E-17, although I'm not marking the
4 fast acting or acute, close parentheses, with a
5 entire thing.
5 latency period of five to thirty or more years,
6
Let me --can we agree that E-17, from
6 end quote. Do you see that?
7 which this document comes, is --you can take a
7
A. Again, this was written after 1986. So
8 look --entitled GE Power Generation, Sales and
8 that was certainly known by '86.
9 Services Operations, got the GE logo, Asbestos
9
Q. We're going to go over some documents
10 Management Training Participants Book, Company 10 in a moment about the historical knowledge, but
11 Proprietary Information? It's from
11 that fact was certainly something that was known
12 environmental health and safety. And if you
12 by the folks at GE in the 1930s?
13 flip through --try help you --section --
13
MR. SPEZIALI: Objection.
14 second paperclipped section.
14
THE WITNESS: What fact?
15
A. Okay. I see a diagram, human
15 BY MR. KRISTAL:
16 respiratory tract.
16
Q. That asbestos is a slow acting or
17
Q. Which is the front page of Exhibit 28,
17 chronic toxin versus a fast acting or acute
18 right?
18 one, number one, that was known, was it not, in
19
A. Yes.
19 1934 and thereafter by the folks at GE? Perhaps
20
Q. Then if you look behind that in the
20 even earlier.
21 larger document, can you confirm that the next
21
A. I'd say for the most part, yes, it was
22 two pages are the second and third page of
22 known by the 1930s. It was a chronic, and the
23 Exhibit 28?
23 type of exposure with a latency period generally
24
A. Yes. I'm looking for a date on this
24 at that point thought to be longer than five
25 document. Give me a minute here.
25 years. This says five to thirty years.
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47 (Pages 461 to 464)
Page 465
Page 467
1 Generally going back to the '20s. That would
1 subject.
2 have been considered kind of a short latency
2
I'm asking you is it not true that
3 period, five to thirty. It would have been
3 people in the medical and industrial health
4 considered longer than that.
4 departments at GE and the president of GE in the
5
Q. Okay. So folks at GE, people in the
5 1930s knew that asbestos is a slow acting or
6 medical department at GE, Mr. Swope - and we're 6 chronic toxin versus fast acting or acute?
7 going to look at communications he had with
7
A. Well, you're really taking something
8 Alice Hamilton who was the president of GE in
8 totally out of context, and what I really have
9 the '30s --were certainly aware that asbestos
9 to do as a health and safety professional is
10 was a slow acting or chronic toxin with a
10 describe what really happened back then and not
11 certain latency period, and they knew that in 12 the 1930s?
11 play some word games. If I can answer the 12 question the way I know how to answer it, let me
13
MR. SPEZLALI: Objection.
13 just go ahead and do that.
14
THE WITNESS: Well, I'd say what they
14
MR. KRISTAL: Let's get Laraine on the
15 knew in the 1930s, which was known in the
15 phone. Either I'm wrong or not, but I'm not
16 medical and scientific literature, was that
16 going to play games like this for much longer.
17 asbestos -- over exposure, high levels of
17
(Discussion off the record.)
18 asbestos dust, could lead to a fibrosis
18
MS. McCRACKEN: I want to put one thing
19 condition identified and called asbestosis in
19 on the record before we quit. This just relates
20 1928, but -- that it could lead to that kind of
20 to our discussions at the very beginning about
21 condition, but that was certainly considered at
21 notice with regard to the original deposition,
22 very high levels of dust back in the 1930s.
22 and during the course of this deposition I've
23
MR. KRISTAL: Move to strike the answer 23 looked at Exhibit 9 and 10, which were the
24 as non-responsive.
24 notices for this deposition, and I would say
25
What I'm trying to do, I'm going to
25 that I do not see reflected on there, but if
Page 466
1 read the sentence and I'm going to ask you if
1
2 the folks at GE, anybody at GE, knew that that
2
3 was true in the 1930s. Quote, asbestos is a slow
3
4 acting or chronic toxin versus fast acting or
4
5 acute, end quote. Do you agree or disagree that
5
6 people at General Electric knew that in the
6
7 1930s?
7
8
MR. SPEZIALI: Objection.
8
9
THE WITNESS: Well, again, I have to
9
10 say that they -- what was known -- they knew
10
11 what the rest of the medical and scientific
11
12 community knew.
12
13 BY MR. KRISTAL:
13
14
Q. I'm not asking about the rest of the
14
15 medical and scientific community.
15
16
A. I can only answer the way I can answer.
16
17
Q. The last time you didn't know what the
17
18 medical and scientific community knew in terms 18
19 of the state of the art, and you said you knew
19
20 what the Navy knew and you knew what GE knew. 20
21 Didn't you say that last time?
21
22
A. I don't recall.
22
23
Q. I'm j u s t a s k in g y o u a b o u t G en e r a l
23
24 Electric's knowledge because you are the
24
25 spokesperson for General Electric on that
25
Page 468
I've missed it I'm happy to be corrected, that GM was ever notified even of the continuing deposition. Notwithstanding the fact that I am here and that we had actual notice, to the extent that there may be issues with respect to notice, I don't want to waive those.
MR. KRISTAL: But you're here for the two clients --
MS. McCRACKEN: GM and Ford. (Discussion off the record.) MR. KRISTAL: We just had a phone call with the special master, Laraine Pacheco, regarding the questioning and answering of the witness. We discussed the last line of questioning, and we're going to continue this deposition August 17th and 18th in Tucson so we can be directly supervised by the special master. So that's the end of the dep today. MR. SPEZIALI: I just think that's probably by agreement of all counsel. This way we get this thing done, and we do have a gentlemen's disagreement as to whose position is
correct, and rather than havin g to run to the
phone every time because we are standing on our swords thinking we're right, it's probably going
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
48 (Pages 465 to 468)
1 Page 469
Page 471
to be easier for all involved Plaintiffs and GE
1 STATE OF NEW YORK)
2 to get our rulings whether we like them or not.
3
MR. KRISTAL: Well, I agree with that.
4 We're off the record now.
5
*****
6
7
8
9 10 11 12
13
14
2
SS:
3 COUNTY OF ERIE)
4
5
I, VICTORIA ROHL, a Notary Public
6 in and for the State of New York, County of
7 Erie, DO HEREBY CERTIFY, that the Examination
8 Before Trial of MARJORIE DRUCKER, was taken down
9 by me in a verbatim manner by means of Machine
10 Shorthand on July 14,2004, that the proceedings
11 were taken to be used in the above-entitled
12 action.
13
I further CERTIFY that the
14 above-described transcript constitutes a true,
15 accurate and complete transcript of the
15
16 testimony.
16
17
17
18
18
19
19
20
20
VICTORIA ROHL
21
21
Notary Public
22
22
23
23
24
24
25
25
Page 470
1
I hereby CERTIFY that I have read
2 the foregoing pages, and with the exception of 3 the changes on the errata sheet, that they are a 4 true and accurate transcript of the testimony 5 given by me in the above-entitled action on July 6 14, 2004.
7
8
9 MARJORIE DRUCKER
10
11 Sworn to before me this
12
day of
, 2004.
13
14
15
16
Notary Public
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
EXHIBIT INDEX
DRUCKER EXHIBITS:
PACE:
8, a deposition notice from June 3rd, 2004 of Ms. Drucker
9, a deposition notice dated June 23rd, 2004
10, a letter to all counsel which was sent out by one o f W eitz & Luxenberg's trial paralegals notifying folks on the rider that GE was designating Ms. Drucker as the most knowledgeable person in the two subjects and that the deposition was scheduled for July 14th and July 15th, and not for July 1st
11, a broad-brush summary o f various asbestos air sampling that had been done over the years in various locations at GE where asbestos was used or asbestos was used in the production o f GE products
12, a document dated April 30th, 1970 from Dr. Brugsch to Dr. Elkins, relating to a visit to the GE plant at Lowell, Massachusetts o f April 22nd, 1970 13, a document dated July 16th, 1956 to Dr. Elkins from Mr. Compony and Mr. Bavley, the subject being the Lowell, Massachusetts plant
14, a memo dated November 22nd, 1972 regarding a meeting between General Electric and Johns-Manville
15, a letter that encloses a state survey similar to the ones we had seen with respect to the wire and cable and the heater cords April 22nd, 1991, the subject being the General Electric turbine department at Fitchburg, and the date o f the survey was April 14th, 1971
16, a medical record dated April 15th, 1971 o f Mr. B.
Priority-One Court Reporting (718) 761-0527
49 (Pages 469 to 472)
1 17, a memo from January 3rd, 1973
2 18, persons contacted, places visited
document J-3
346 375
19, a document entitled ACM manuals including
382
4 TILs
5 20, a TIL relating to gas and steam turbines
407
and generators
g
21, a memo dated June 10th, 1974 from the 7 insulation and non-metals laboratory, memo
report WJ Willis, and die subject is S replacement materials for structural asbestos
parts 9
22, a document entitled The Asbestos Problem 10 by HW Gayek, G-A-Y-E-K, Transportation
Equipment Products Department, Erie, 11 Pennsylvania 12 23, page two o f a results summary for the
TEPD 13
22-A, the entire document that contains 14 Exhibits 22 and 23 15 23-A, a collection o f documents from which 23
came 16
24, a memo dated November 11th, 1971 from 17 Dr. Elkins to
Mr. Grady, the subject being General Electric 18 Company, Building 36, Pittsfield 19 25, an October 26th, 1970 memo 20 26, a document dated August 5th, 1969 from
Dr. Elkins to Mr. Sinclair 21
27, page twelve o f fifty-seven pages from a 22 website 23 28, a document entitled GE Power Generation,
Sales and Services Operations, with the GE 24 logo, Asbestos Management Training
Participants Book, Company Proprietary 25 Information
409
424
429 429
436 439
445 455
458 461
50 (Page 473)