Document 3qMOGqD7RND9REJapajZXdmn

FILE NAME: Hercules Chemical (HERC) DATE: 1956 DOC#: HERC040 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Panel Discussion at 21st IHF Annual Meeting - Health Problems Involved in the Manufacture, Sale, and Use of Toxic Materials Transcript 21t ANNUAL MEETING INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE FOUNDATION / . ' JV~' ^ t. YC-'?er i - 'VS - > *'VJ ,) f >'> 2 i C a .ioii-l ' Y? Transactions Bulletin No. 30 (' ii'finmniii INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE FOUNDATION OF AMERICA MELLON INSTITUTE 4400 FIFTH AVENUE PITTSBURGH 13, PA. II i !:! V r^-ering questions on health problems involved in the m anufacture, sale and use of^toxJc m a te m ls a t Joint ' ' * : a T- r^-. . Qr j 0Kn A. Zapp, Jr., D irector, H askell Laboratory for Toxicology and In d u strial Medicine, E. I. x" * - - fAinnonv Tn/* Thpodnre H atch U niversity of P ittsb u rg h G raduate School of Public H ealth, to the Foundation: and V. P. A hearn, Executive Secretary, N ational In d u strial Sand Asso- HEALTH PROBLEMS INVOLVED IN THE MANUFACTURE, SALE, AND USE r ;< g- o rC+Q<J7?$ ^* oc>r " o p: ra -^ Wg ^< pT CcD C5O" |i_>J3 -r n!T?+- C5D3 T3 O* H & " C *O* ?h0i rr o ft Qfj ,<, t p ^W ^pr O^) m ft s & s* CL co o !> t) ft- p M O h-< ~ CT' CT> W ~ <V B rC 5" 3 ? 5 =" r s 3, 0 - 5-J. cd 05 hj h-- (t-*>* p < cr o ' o 3 o ^ tc>r cct)r a P ^ M- i?r CO a> rt- go o Q j ^~ "D ^ tr ^P s ft P ^p p Cu t> 2 oo c ` *3 CD <r> > ^ O f> c T| P i 1 s oZ o c s -o S"*5* > cr 3. --I y i Q- C .U3 T1 f3t 7^ s-5 > trr ^ 1-5 P J2 X 5 -? P ti _ 32 I US 53 03 > -o x 1 ?? N <* to aCU U" * * fL CM T1 0-5tt CO 5 ^ S o" V n n *3 - Xc * o o ? ao 3 n 3 -t > j S il L2 0 Cm D r+ r*3CV. ^ 5 oo T33 2 > > 7- 0 Lft ft S S ' -* C3 > r> > -m t/1 If I >s > s Q. r- to q m > 5LO 70 > C\-C<O m* O ~n S 2 : 5 o_ >--1 <5* n Som >< o *H 3S u m 3 -0* X r "zDr 3 * -? L ny r\ * a b 50 2 =ar. P 2 - O I O f- POf X_ O3 Qft, CO 2 . contributions to be made. The panel p articip an ts m et tins m orning to look over the questions and to discuss the program . A fte r the recess, at 3 :30, we propose to give p rio rity to questions asked from the floor rather th an to the written-out, questions. We hope lh at there will be floor discussion even if we h av e n 't answered all the w ritten questions, because we w ant to establish the town hall atm osphere and to give each of you an o p p o rtu n ity to ask a question, to make a contribution, to challenge a member of the panel, or do any th in g else th a t y o u r democratic in stin ct suggests you do. The first question which 1 am going to ask the panel is : !' How does one define `health problem s'? W hat is m eant by `toxic m a te ria l'? " 1 am going to ask Dr. McGee to answer th at question DR. M cG E E : In a broad sense, one m ight say th at any deviation from optimum physical, mental, and social well-being is a health problem. That definition of health as the optim um state of mental, physical and social adjustm ent has been batted about for a num ber of years. 1 believe for the purpose of this a fte rn o o n 's contribution, how ever, the health problems involved should be limited to those devia tions from optim um health which occur as a result of an exposure in m anu factu rin g , sale and use of something which is called ``toxic material. " As the title is stated, of course, any deviation in health of a worker would react on his work in output, and so forth, in a broad sense. B u t 1 believe the m eaning here is in a more lim ited sense of those deviations from the optimum physical, m ental, and social ad justm ents which result from the contact with this thing called ``toxic material. '' Passing then to the second p art of the question, "`W hat is toxic m aterial?" we are m trouble immediately. 1 find very few people, outside of those who are concerned with deleterious substances as they affect m an. who have a concept of the large range in degree and character of toxicity. I t is a word which m eans w hat anybody wauls it to mean U n fo rtu n atelv ,'to substitute for ``toxic," " poisonous," "dele terio u s" or w hat have you, gets us no place. It so happens that every thing with which man is in contact can be troublesome and " t o s i e " if lie gets too much Those things that we consider essential in life, including food, vitamins, minerals, and water, can lie " ( o w e " In man I believe Dr. H em s Smyth, <1r , defined " lo w c " simply as a m ailer of too much If we Keep lhat in mind, we will realize limn llml n r caniiol circum scribe a certain group u! nm leiials and :.a\ llm c am ln\ie others am mil lo \ir I musl admit and pos'ihlv Ih Sapp inn | :;ro | help us here, that, for purposes of orientation, we m ust have sour* arb itra ry definition of what is toxic DR. VjA P I5: J can only express m y agreem ent w ith the romarliN that Dr McGee has made. The term ``'toxic m a te ria l" is subject, to very many interpretations by different people The great difficulty th a t we have in talking about them and in draw ing u p laws and proordures to govern the use of toxic m aterial revolves about 1lie defi nition of toxic material. Dr. McGee was quoting to you ju st a few' moments ago from the report of the Council of Toxicology of The Am erican Medical Association, in -which are reviewed the various definitions of poison, (The Council found that there was no uniform ity.) As a m atter of fact, it states that, there is no uniform ity of legal or scientific opinion as to w hat constitutes a poison. A nd then, since a precise definition th a t would tit, all eircuiti stances is not possible, the Committee felt th at any substance that when im properly used may produce harm by chemical action, should be provided with an ap propriate cautionary label or statem ent, cl cetera. So. here, we have not only difficulty in defining what \v<* .... an by toxic m aterial, h u t also a concern on the p a rt of this group lotw arning of the consequences of misuse. 1 think what we really mean to talk about this afternoon is more properly defined as hazards, that is, the probability th a t an in ju ry will occur in the m anufacture, sale, or use of these materials. MODERATOR A H E A R N : Thank you very much. Dr /,app Now, I move on to the second question, unless at this stage a member of the panel wishes to add something to what these two gentImimu have already said. You football men will notice I am playing a seven man lineup on Ibis platform . I am going to ask my rigid tackle, Dr. Uaeliman, this question. " Do you think there is any basic difference in iial'ely as applied to people in research and development in comparison will) people involved in regular production operations?" Div -I '>A ( ' i i M A N i l l i i uk fills ( pl e s l i on m file liisl p l a c e I cfiqip lo aii a p p i o a e h lo safely. In llud ecspecl, I will tr y (o pass an opinion, I think (here is a considerable difference in the safe ly lllnt any *11iei11i 111< rs in (lie l a b o r a t o r y a n d I l i a ! w h i c h o ne e ne o n n l o i ' i i i n ll|j l p i . m l I n a p l a n l in Hu* r<*;, i i l n r p r o i l n e l i o n o p e r a t i o n , il is pohl il hj e I ni flu* i 'l l " u i e e i j o b r e a k a p r o c e s s d o w n i nt o m a n y c o m p o n e n t p i p 'lu a n I I 1111V these p a i l s I roll! (lie poi nt of view of sal 'elv ; I lie i li ffcl ' cn t " I " l i m n , c a n lie m l ei pi a I e | \ sa f e r n a i *lei I I l i m i t l l i e r c is m i l v e r y much difficulty m this, and it is ra th e r rarely th a t we have accidents of any significant nature in processes that are continually operating in a repetitive m anner. I think th at is rath er easy to control, and it is more feasible to tra in the operators in safety measures. Now, in co n trast w ith th at is a research laboratory. The men in the laboratory are frequently working in unexplored and unknown areas. They may or may not, and probably will not, know the toxico logical or hazardous explosive properties of the m aterials with which they are working or of the m aterials which m ight he form ed as a result of their researches. So, here, you have only a few of the general rules of safety th a t apply. I think a great deal of it in the case of the research man depends entirely upon him. I th in k his approach to it m ust be one of safety consciousness. I th in k he has to really live safely and to be effective this has to be a p a r t of his background, a part of his disposition. M ODERATOR A H E A R N : Thank you, D r. Bachman. Now. Mr. Hatch. MR. H A T C H . 1 certainly agree with everything he said except the second point, attitude Certainly, it is tru e th a t the people who are doing the basic research and development work should incorporate into their day-to-day thinking the needs with respect to safety to a greater degree than people out on the production line. However, it has been my experience, and T am sure many of the rest of us here have had the same experience, that very often we find it just the other way around. The man who is doing research is so w rapped up in his research objective th at he is inclined not to give very much considera tion to these other matters. 1 can recall visiting laboratories where, for example, they were using such a well-known agent as benzol and were slopping it around like w ater. A t the same time, they m ight be quite concerned over the toxicity of the new' and exciting m aterial th a t they are developing. So, T am sure it is im portant to make sure th a t in the course o f re search and development, these questions are constantly raised, bul I d o n 't think we can rightly assume th at the research people are always going to raise them. M ODERATOR A H EA R N : Tlumk you, Ted. 1 waul to remind Ihc panel thal oilier coni ribulions are always welcomed. MR. BAIDE May I interject one com m ent'1 The very dial me turn that both gentlemen have made between the research operation ,md production operation suggests (lie desirability of a slighll.v dll' fere nl approach to the safety pingram with respect to opera Iion In the p ro d u ctio n operation, you are dealing with g u ard in g ag ain st ( Inindividual, isolated accidents in the course of production, whereas, in the research operation, you are concerned with the catastrophe proli. lem. Therefore, your program m th a t respect should be designed to provide for the type of action required in the event those Cains, trophes occur. M O D E R A T O R AITEARN. T hank you very much, M r. Haile, The next question gives us a chance to break out our legal talenl up here. " Does not the obligation of the insured under a Producls Ina bility Policy, particularly his agreement not to settle w ith a claim ant n o r to adm it liability, interfere w ith a m a n u fa c tu re r's relations wilh his customers and with the public?" Mr. Baile, you can be the first one to answer th a t question. MR. B A 1 D E : I believe the sim ple answer to the question is Dial it should not. I think at the same time you have to recognize dial, th ere is an apprehension on the p a rt of some people th a t it does. In order that it shall not interfere with customer and public relations, I th in k it is of utm ost im portance th a t there be u n d ersta n d in g on IInp a r t of both the in su rer and the insured, and also th a t there Ik- tinutm ost cooperation between the two. The basic u n d erstanding th at has to exist is to recognize the din tin ctio n between customer com plaints on one hand and claims on the other. Custom er com plaints m ust be a concern of the insured, tinm anufacturer himself. He must be free to deal with customer emu. plaints as you deal in business relations, without necessarily being concerned w ith the legal basis of the claim or the legal possibilit'icn that m ight arise out of your action. On the other hand, it is most im portant on the part of the no su re r to recognize th a t the insured m ust he free to acl in that wa\ ; th at he m ust be free to deal with a custom er in order that lie will have a satisfied customer Since th a t is the* interest of the maim I'mtu rer, he c a n 't re strain th a t action in order to profeet Ins legal poto tion. The in terest of the insurer and the insured must lie rrrogni/.ei| as an identical interest. They are not i\v<> parties; they nr....... .. pni-lv' serving oile aspect of the insured's business, which is his refill ion In (lie custom ers insofar as they are affected hv his producls, I hope / don'l sound idealistic speaking as an insurance mail on Ih.if subject, because I think it is the actual practice o! rvrr,\ emit' p:m\ ol stan d ing to operate m Ihr liamllm;.- of products liafiild.V -lainis in p irn s rly that wa\ I f il is done Ilia! way, llu-n there in iiu In ICr Ie I'el lee Willi til* eollip.lMV ' lefilllolr- Willi lie |Oifill! llllt -II Ioil iris > >f MODERATOR A H E A R N : Thank you Dr Zapp, will you comment ? DR. Z A P P . Well, I c a n 't speak on this topic as a law yer or as an insurance man. I t does seem to me th at there are two separate concepts involved in this question. One concerns the mechanism of settling* claims wrhich presume that there has been an injury for which the plaintiff seeks to recover damages. The other p art concerns the relations of the m an ufacturer with his customers and with the public. Now, it seems to me that the m anufacturer has a very definite responsibility to his customers and to the public, and that is to point out to them how Ins product can he used with safety. N othing can interfere with that responsibility on the part of the m anufacturer. If, however, a claim arises which suggests either th at the m anufac t u r e r 's statem ents were inadequate or in error, then you have this question of deciding about liability, which 1 feel is a separate m atter. MODERATOR AHEARN : Thank you, Dr. Zapp. The next ques tion is, " W hat inform ation respecting physical and chemical p ro p erties and toxicological properties of the m aterial does the industrial hygienist need in order to develop the hazard control p ro g ram ?" Mr. H a tc h MR. H A T C H : The answer to this question is very easy. You get all that is available There is one very im portant aspect of this ques tion as to what inform ation concerning physical and chemical and toxicological properties that the industrial hygienist needs. The im plication is that there is inform ation with respect to the toxicological properties of the substance obviously essential to an understanding of the hazard. T h at doesn't tell the whole story, however. T here m ust be added to this question; w hat inform ation does he need also w ith respect to the way in which the process operates in which this toxic substance is to be used? I t is im portant for us to keep in m ind th at there is a very real difference in toxicity and hazard. H ere is where the physical and chemical properties as well as the toxicological prop erties come in. We know, for example, th at two substances may be equally toxic but quite different in respect to hazard Thus, it should he the indus trial h y g ien ist's responsibility to accum ulate all the inform ation th at is available, and it should be his responsibility to digest this in fo rm a tion and determ ine to what extent, more inform ation is needed, be cause lie c a n 't limit Ins responsibility b\ sim ply saying that on h so much is known about the substance and, t here fore, decisions li,i\e to be bused upon ihi.s limited data He m ust see to it th a t the necessary additional inform ation is obtained. M ODERATOR A1IEARN . Dr. McGee. DR M <GEE. Accepting the suggestions that Ted H atch has given. 1 w onder if lie would adm it there is a practical sh o rtcu t which is useful in hum an exposures to some m aterials. I re fe r to the fact th a t if you have an explosive hazard a t a concentration in a ir well below that causing a definite, clear-cut, biological effect, it is a simple and good operating rule to take the lowest concentration needed as a guide. You may disregard certain properties which are evident, only at levels above th a t level which can be tolerated for reasons of safely. M O D E R A T O R AITEARN Thank you very much, D r. McGee. There are two questions on the list which bear essentially on tin* same points and we will therefore discuss them jointly. They a r e : 1 . ``W hat is the liability of a m anufacturer of a toxic chemical who sells it in bulk for packaging and resale by the purchaser under his own nam e or brand in the event of an in ju ry to an u ltim a !......... sum er?" and, 2. " W hat liability does a company have for its product if an adequate w arning label is placed on the container hut the ultim ate consum er eith er does not read the w arning label or does not follow la instructions?" I am going to call on Mr. O viatt first MR. O V IA TT: If the m anufacturer adequately warns a reseller of the toxic nature of the m aterial either on the label or otherwise and of the care th a t should be used in handling it, he is nol liable if the reseller fails to p u t such w arning on the package when In- re packages it and sells it to the public Of course, if a m anufacturer should find out in any one of num erous ways th at the reseller is fail ing to p u t the notice or the w arning or any m aterial part Ihereof <m the packages, then he should call the reseller's attention to il. If the reseller p ersists in disregarding those w arnings, llien I believe flint - Of course, w hat should go on a label depends great l\ on the cIiihm of trad e to whicli any product is sold, the knowledge of the people who are going to use it, the chemical knowledge and results Ihal mtr.lil come from m ishandling. So. you can't say a label lias to bear Ihim and so for the entire general public And that would also control to a certain extent, what should go on a label to a reseller II r ulinl knowledge he in.n have of the ehemieals sold and what lie lemld ml \ ise his piiieh.isers as to the method ol use MODERATOR A H E A R N : Thank you very much, Mr Oviatt. Mr. Baile. MR. B A ILE : I think in answering the first of the two questions, you have to make a distinction between chemicals which are toxic as a norm al attribute of the chemical itself on the one hand, and on the other hand the chemical which is toxic as a result of some dangercreating defect th at exists in the chemical which would norm ally be harmless. Now. I th in k Mr. O v ia tt's answ er is p rim arily directed to the first class where you are dealing with the chemical which is naturally toxic. U nder those circum stances, when the purchaser is given full knowledge of the toxic character of it and the dangers th a t are in herent, or the purchaser, w ithout your telling him, has that knowl edge, I d o n 't think there is any liability on the p a r t of the m anu facturer. However, where the toxic character of the chemical is created by some defect in the m a n u fa c tu rin g process, then I th in k there is liability on the part of the m anufacturer. I d o n 't th in k we are going to perm it m an u factu rers to insulate their own carelessness in the m anufacture of their product against consumers by the intervention of a middle man. MR. OVIATT Mr. Baile, after all, the question was w hat is the liability of the m anufacturer of a toxic chemical. Now a chemical is either toxic or not toxic, is th at right? MR B A IL E : Not according to my friend at the beginning of the meeting. MR. OV IA TT: If a chemical becomes toxic because of the de fect, th a t is n 't the subject of our m eeting today, is it? I thought we are ju st speaking of m aterials th at are inherently toxic without any defect producing toxicity. MODERATOR A H E A R N : I believe it would be helpful to the audience, Mr. Baile, if we had more pointed discussion of the second half of this question, because it seems to me it is a question which most people in this audience are very much interested in. W ill you point your remarks specifically to that question MR B A ILE As Mr Oviatt pointed out, the basic consideration in im posing liability upon a m anufacturer of a chemical, which in its nature is to\ic, is the oliugalion that is imposed upon him to disscmi Male the knowledge that lie has of the il.n i'v is to the purchaser Now, his nnlv method of doing (hat Mi most ............... . is through l a bel i ng I | the product w ith an appropriate warning, stating prohibitions agiliiwl p a rtic u la r use an d providing an antidote in the event harm is <-u countered. H av ing done that, there is not much more he can do, If, therefore, he meets th at requirem ent--puts an adequate warn ing on his p ro d u c t-- the unwillingness of an ultim ate user in take advantage of the knowledge th at has been made available In him, either refusing to read it or failing to understand that wlueli m clearly understandable does not create a liability. On the contrary, it constitutes on the p a rt of the consumer, the party injured, a fntdl which would bar any rigid of recovery th at he should have1 against a m anufacturer. MR. O V IA T T : On the other hand, what you are really saying is th at th e m a n u fa ctu rer does not have to police his customers, MR. B A IL E : I think th a t is a fa ir statem ent. M ODERATOR A H E A R N : I believe the audience appreeialed that additional contribution from both of you. By the way, I forgot to say in opening this m eeting dial at tie* request of the panel, I w ant to make it clear th at the mem bees of Ilie panel are speaking only for themselves as individuals and are mil In be reg ard ed as com m itting their companies in any way. I Hi ink we may assume th a t they and their companies arc fa irly close I n g o t her We w ill go on to the next question now.- ' `lu wind way can do* producer of a toxic substance aid in securing its salt' use hy e.luem tion, research, and development of control m easures?" Mr. Ilaleli, MR. H A T C H . W e agreed in a prelim inary panel mooling the* m orning th a t th is question answers itself. The point is, Imw 1*1111 we get the p ro d u cer to recognize and accepl his responsibility We have m any examples in which (he m anufaelurers of luyio substances have recognized and assumed respoiisibilily m Ihis respect, even to the ex tent of requiring the cuslom er to show evidence in ml vance th a t he has made adequate provisions for (lie safe linmlliiqi o|' (he m aterial before they -nil] supply 1 lo him ! when I was with (lie New York Labor I)r|i,'i I'l men I Ihilt one com pany which was producing ami disl ribtil nig 11 highly lim n maleri.il required every potential custom er in New Yurk In gel Ilie approval of (ho S late for (heir proposed control III (In' cane of iniodier (o \ie sill isl mice one of our l.irgr rlirm iral com pit 11ies linn noI up .'in elahorale program ol education ul tin- 11I(imale oniouiiiMT of (he 1111den .il. Ill reeogn I(ion of (he \ or\ mipoif.ud fuel dial llhotll /oleqiude -.all'll me.iaiM",, ..i-rioir; ,| dlieid!ie . non* hound In iruull 1 w o u l d l i k e I n ( m i l I n ( l i e |a:>( l l e l l l i l l * ' d i \ c 11>| III 1' III o l 1 011 (1 ol V measures. There is a p a rtic u la r responsibility and opp o rtu n ity here on the p art of the producer because, as I said earlier, the hazard can be magnified or minimized for a given toxic m aterial by the m anner in which the process equipm ent operates. I t is the responsibility of the producer of such m aterials to take p art in the development of safe-process equipm ent so th a t he will be in a position to advise his customer on the kind of equipm ent in which he is to use this toxic m aterial. MODERATOR A H E A R N : Thank you, Ted. Dr. Bachman. DR. B A C H M A N . I can only add to Mr. H a tc h 's rem arks by call ing attention to an action one company is taking. They bring in the custom er's employees who are going to use this m aterial and give the employees of the customer a course in the handling of it Now this, I think, is an excellent approach when you get to extremely hazard ous conditions I d o n 't know of anything th a t you can do beyond that. M ODERATOR A H EA R N : Now we come to two questions which the panel believes should be grouped together also: ``W h a t pro cedures should be followed to determ ine w hether any of the p lan t personnel are abnormally sensitive to toxic m aterials. In conjunction w ith th at "H o w is a health problem to be anticipated? Recognized? Proved 1" D r McGee. DR. McGEE In general, there are certain principles which some of us feel should be followed. In the first place, we m ust know as much as we can about the biological action of the m aterial concerned. We like to know how it can affect the animal w ith which we are prim arily concerned There may be a species variation, such as the rabbit story Ted H atch m en tioned. The full story of biological action involves some u n d erstan d ing of the molecular structure; action at a cellular level, the details of the chemical, metabolic and other changes brought about in the body, to the extent that our research methods and our understanding of metabolism of the body allows us to define those things Secondly from the stan d p o in t of man, the worker, it is quite essential th at we know who in the p lan t has a deviation from his optimum state of health, when, where and why. W e are not able 1o recognize or anticipate a health problem unless we know what 1o look Sor, and actually do look periodically at this crucial and continuing experiment in which tin' w orker is involved To accomplish that, wo must know what ins situation hcalthwisc is when lit" starts to work (lie I'o rr exposure! and at internals th ereafter I thi nk ,i l . u p c ni i ml i ci o f o I'g.in i/.i IK ms. m n i d m to hr i . n e f n l I IT'S | when using a new m aterial, examine the worker at rather freipictil intervals until they define for them selves: 1 T hat the average person does well under the cireumsfimci'N and the control situation that exists at the p la n t; and 2 T h at in a sufficient experience they have not demons! ruled mi unusual sensitivity. I refer not only to the entire group of allergies, hu t to some of Ilie idiosyncrasies which are not too well understood. A p a rt of this recognition of a hazard involves other Ilian lunde knowledge, orientation and thinking about it day by day. A respon sible in d ividual reviews some of the possibilities which may he over looked and checks and double checks to see if they are actually oeeui. ring. I f you d o n 't look, 1 will assure you th a t the experience of moat of us is th a t you can miss them u n til they force themselves on ymi, By looking carefully for an untow ard reaction you may find il earlier than otherwise. M ODERATOR A H E A R N : Thank you. Now, I)r. Bachman DR. B A C H M A N . Once again I am in a position of haokup man w ith very little to say on the subject, because I think I)r. ,Me(!ee Ima p retty much said w hat can be said. I do note th at the poinl al which most of the conditions arise or appear is at the start of a new planl I think it is only by following the points as made hv l)r. MeOee llnd one can discover or uncover the abnorm al sensitivity of a per'imi The only th in g th a t I know of th a t could be done is to remove the man from the action and p ra y th a t he doesn't get worst1 M ODERATOR A H E A R N : Thank you. Dr. Bachman. Mr Ilatch, MR. H A T C H : I would like to add to what Dr. M etier said, lit addition to the continuing observations on the men for the p u rjmino of id entifying a problem area, it is equally essential that there he parid lei studies on exposure. The ultim ate purpose is to compare Ilie one with the other. So d o n 't forget that, it is the two together, the mail and the environm ent, th a t have to be studied continuously in order to reveal significant relationships. W ith m echanization and autom ation the ...................... people ill a plant become more and mure im portant. There are more of them in proportion to production men and difficult problems arise with respect to them because llieir exposures arc so varied and mieerlMHI Thus, system; it ie and continuing studies are e\en mine im poilim t Dli Z A I 'I ' I i <<p t<-111Ix m a d e ! s h o u l d l i ke to r o i n m e i i l on .1 s i l g e c . l l o u (lull in tli.il is, w i n i s m I we d e h o l lie a Iu c u e ia II \ i,eui five individual by some sort o screening test? F o r derm atitis, for example, why not a patch test before he is put, into contact with the suspected m aterial on his job? Generally speaking, we do not recommend this procedure. I be lieve one of the biggest scale attem p ts at this sort of thing was the testing of volunteers with m ustard gas at the beginning of W orld W ar II. A great many were tested in an effort to determine individual variations in sensitivity. One consequence of this program was that some of the men were sensitized to m ustard gas and therefore reacted abnormally whenever they came in contact with small concentrations. So. it is not a practical procedure to weed out the hypersensitive by a prelim inary testing program if we are dealing with a sensitizer. The other comment is th at we can anticipate certain types of difficulty. F or example, suppose we are dealing with a chemical that produces kidney injury. I t would not be wise to expose a man who has only one kidney ; he m ight very well be abnorm ally sensitive. And that brings up the importance of an adequate, preplacement medical examination and a classification of a man as fit or unfit for a certain type of exposure. DR. M cG E E : May I add one thing which I think is im portant? I t is the absolute necessity of a critical a ttitu d e in tying down the diagnosis I know of a few areas where it is more im portant to crossexamine a diagnosis and prove it to the extent that it is possible to prove it than in occupational disease. The very act of having a high index of suspicion when supervising an operation with a potential hazard sometimes leads to false diagnoses th a t can be troublesome. I am reminded of the incident of the plant physician who was aware th at a chemical could be a sensitizer of the skin and lead to a dermatitis. He showed me a ease of a very stubborn derm atitis, stub born because the man had been removed from the exposure for six months and still had the skin lesions I was visiting the plant at the time. I had a hunch of a different diagnosis when I saw the m a n 's lesions, p artly because I was not expecting contact derm atitis, as was the plant physician who lives with the problem every day. I asked the patient if there weie members of his fam ily who had sim ilar kin Trouble There were two m em bers who had sim ilar complaints. The diagnosis proved to be scabies for all three of the patients. M ODERATOR A H E A R N . T hank you very much We will go on to the next question `' Does the usual P roducts Liability Policy cover am and all liability lhaf may be imposed upon a m anufacturer for dam.me* resulting from llic use of Ins product 7 Mli. I'>A 11. K I (h in t (lie answ er to that ((Host mu is oln mush no | 2 C.0 | F irs t of all, it does not cover any liability in excess of lim its flint, are provided in the policy. Second, it does not cover the liability tlint might be imposed upon a m anufacturer for damage to the product itself. T h at liability is excluded in the norm al policy. T hird, mutd product liability policies are w ritten on w hat is called " accident basis." They cover liability imposed upon the m anufacturer for damages arising out of the use of a product, caused by accident,. Aeci dent is used there in the sense of some event which is identifiable in point of tim e an d place of occurrence, as distinguished from advoi'No effects which are cum ulative over a long period of time or over a great am ount of space. F o r th at reason, it is very im portant, and parlic.u larly when you are considering the exposure of a m anufacturer to a liability resulting from toxic effects of the products, th at yon keep in m ind th at a policy which is w ritten on the usual accident basis is not a satisfactory policy for your purposes. In that instance, yon should be certain th a t jrour policy is w ritten on w hat insurance men choose to call " occurrence basis." as distinguished from an " accident basin " I th in g in one other instance the fact th a t it is on an aceideut basis is im portant, because th at also is designed to exclude any coverage of the results of business decisions th a t mighl ....... ode. It n. p re tty difficult to illu stra te th a t in a case of products. T think il in more a p p a ren t in the ease of general liability policies You lake Ilie road contractor who has two methods of tearing up an area, d u e method is a little cheaper for him, but it involves exposing surround ing properties to dam age by shaking or noise or something like lluit, The other method, which m ight cost him a little hit more money, would avoid th at W ith th a t knowledge, he proceeds to follow the lean c\ pensive m ethod T hat is a business decision the company lias mode MR. .T. C. W A T E R S : May I ask one queslion as in Mini f Why do n o t insurance ca rriers w rite policies on a broader basis so limy gel beyond the concept of accidents? MR. BATLE : I think to answer th a t question you liave to atari out w ith the prem ise th a t the insurance company, if it could, would be very hap p y to w rite policies on a, com pletely broad Iuimin. Tint) would be very happy to insure the total liaiulily ol industry, To t|o that, of course, we would liave to receive the total income of elu'li t'Otn pany individually, which you would be unw illing In pay by way of premium Therefore, iI. is (lie question of balancing (lie risk Unit you have been exposed to against what you ace willing to pay for, Hot necessarily willing, bill what \ on can reasonably pa.V for S o it is a q u e s t i o n o f i s o l a t i n g those ba y , a i ds w hi c h ace lilinil common lo tm luslrv g e m s .ill s ' am i c ow ou ig Iln in ami c scl mtuip the specific hazards of a particular com pany or industry which are sub jected to a much greater hazard th a n an y other p a rt of th a t industry or any other industry. The second answer to the question, however, from the standpoint of product liability, is th at the insurance in d u stry in general will write the policy on an occurrence basis. W hat they are going to want to know in a particular industry is w hat are the hazards to which th a t company is exposed ? A nd they will try to m easure the rate th at they charge in the light of those hazards. But, as an additional point, for the company that is exposed by virtue of the nature of its product to damage arising out of the toxic effects, it is most im por tan t that they should have their policies w ritten on the occurrence basis I think in the main it will be an insurable risk on an occurrence basis. MODERATOR A IIEA RN : D r McGee. DR. M cG E E: I disclaim any knowledge of product liability poli cies. As a physician, 1 would hope th a t no device or arb itra ry fac tors would ever lessen the d esirability and need for a m anufacturer to know those things about his p roducts which are reasonable and which he should determine prio r to their use. MODERATOR A H E A R N : Thank you very much The next question is ' "Inasmuch as your in d u strial experience has been quite broad, what, based upon that experience, do yon think constitutes the average corporate philosophy concerning m anagem ent's responsi bility for the safety and protection of its employees ?'' D r Bachman. DR. BACHMAN. I think this is ra th e r an interesting question, and, of course, can only he answ ered on the basis of o n e's own ex perience , and I think in arriving at any statem ent or any thought concerning what the average corporate philosophy is today, one must review7 w hat has happened over the course of o n e's lifetim e The gen eral approach to safety 30 years ago was quite different from w hat it is today. The companies th at were m ostly interested in the safety of their men were, in a large measure, those companies where you had sort of a patemniisitie feeling between the owners of the company and towards their men. I don't think there was much of a concerted effort for safety. Some, perhaps, hu t not too great. Then as time went on and we grew, we have had a change in economic and sociological conditions. I think we have had manageinctii people, as a whole, become much more socially conscious towards t hen fellow man and conscious of th eir obligations to him over this '{(Ivcai period Thai lias created a great deal of difference in the a p p m a e l i !o developing safely measures for employe<>N ! ! In addition. I think managements over the years have recognized th a t safety is economically sound fo r a num ber of reasons. It has a very definite m onetary value when you consider our competitive economy Processes have grow n more and more com plicated; new products have appeared. This has caused the management to spend more money in order to build plants which inevitably have become complicated. W ith the plants becoming more complicated and the production increasing, it has been very desirable fo r the m anagem ent to see that they obtain the highest quality of work and the most skilled worker* th at they can. The skilled w orker became a very in tricate cog in Ilie production wheel, and it was certainly most desirable to protect him in the best possible m anner, to look out for his health and be sure th at he worked safely. The loss through accidents or through Nome fa ta lity would be serious, and, actually, mean a lot in dollars in pro duction time and production effort. I think this social consciousness and these other two factors have gone a long way in improving our approach to better and safer w orking conditions. Furtherm ore, money has been saved, and this has been well recommended in Hie saving* in the w orkm en's com pensation fees. Again, I think another factor th a t makes it worthwhile for mail agem ent to have a very favorable a ttitu d e towards safety is that H increases and im proves the m orale of th eir workers, and I know in our organization we have a saying, " A safe p lan t is rather a happy p la n t.'' A nd usually, if you have a h ap p y plant, you have your leiiol difficulties and you get your best work. From my own experience, I would say that, whereas in bygone years when one approached expenditures for safety purposes, Ihe question m ight be raised, " Is this necessary?'', the attitude taken today by most corporate m anagem ents is, " Will this do g en ii' If it is likely to do good, then p u t it in ." f think this is rather eluirne teristic in my experience. M ODERATOR A H E A R N T hank .you very much. Mr Ovmll, MR O V IA T T : Dr. Bachman has pretty well covered the sub ject. I d o n 't know that, ail those who weie safely eonsemiis J,U nr It) years ago were p aternalistic, hut, there has been a delimit' change hi philosophy Twenty-five or th irty years ago Ihere were siunll iilHr maries that companies established with pait lime medical pcmoiinel, and they sat back wanting for accidents to happen, Now they try to prevent accidents The y go In givnl h11)1111<mill spend great sums of money to prevvnl accident'., and I think Ih'm i* Irue of most of tile large cm pm at ions E v e r y ycai hit m sums id' | | money are spent on fully-equipped hospitals in the plants and in the office buildings. They have periodical exam inations made of th eir employees. They have safety program s and training programs for the supervisors in the plants. All in all, industrial medicine has become a large p a rt of the medical profession and a very im p o rtan t cog m an in d u strial organi zation. I know from experience th a t the presidents of some of the divisions of large corporations p u t up trophies to he competed for by the plants to see who can have the least lost-time accidents over a period. While the accident statistics may not bear out the statem ents that have been made, nevertheless, there is th at consciousness and a striving all the time for bettering their record; and I think the rec ords over-all are being bettered every year. As long as employers are conscious of this safety and w hat it will gain, not only in a m onetary way, but in a happy, well-knit organization, they are not going to let up just because they have arrived a t some degree of safety I feel th at is the philosophy today. M ODERATOR A H E A R N : T hank you. Now we will move on to another question ``Have there been recently substantial changes in the law respecting the liability of a m anufacturer to one injured by his product?" MR B A IL E : That term ``re c e n tly " is a relative term . If I would treat it as meaning in this century, I would say yes, there have been what you might call substantial changes, a change in concept and a change in application of principle. P rio r to 1916, generally in this country, you would have heard the rule stated that a m anufacturer has no liability for injuries re sulting from the use of his product beyond persons who are in direct contractual relations w ith him. In 1916, by the famous decision of Justice Cardoza, that principle was finally broken down and in lieu of it was adopted the ru le: if a m anufacturer would recognize that a defectively made product of his involved an unreasonable risk of harm to remote users or persons in the vicinity of remote users, th at then he was under duty to m ake it carefully and from th a t has grown the general principle now, that m anufacturers are, in the main, liable for defects in their products or for hazards against which they can guard, even to those persons who have no contractual relationship with lliem Probably more im portant than th at has been the change in the application of that rule Needless to say. in any claim by remote users ,ie,ims( a manii f.iet u i'ei , the problem of causation is a sei mils one A m an u factu rer m ay make his product at one place a n d it may I,ravel through m any hands over much territory and during a long period of time before it becomes a factor in somebody's in ju ry . The problem is then to determ ine w hether or not some activity on the paH of tlm m an u fa ctu rer was the cause of th a t in ju ry . In the m ain, in 1he pant years our courts required ra th e r specific proof of casual relationship If there has been a m ajor change of our law, it is the tendency of one courts-- and I am one of those who thinks it is a very undesirable tuul u n fo rtu n ate tendency-- to accept w hat I call hypothetical or ipicii tionable proof of relationship between cause and in ju ry . I think I Imse two main changes th at have occurred have been very substantial changes and have greatly broadened the scope of the liability of ihc m anufacturer. MR. O V IA T T : I have very little to add. The concepts of ...... contractual relationship has been broadened the last few years I I liink the courts are inclined to stretch that doctrine perhaps sometimes n little too far, b u t th a t old doctrine of M cPherson vs l'u ick Compunv has opened a new thought on this question of liability, which I I limit is all rig h t as long as they d o n 't take it too far. M O D ERA TO R A H E A R N : T hank you very much. Now, we will go on to the next question: " W hat are the possibilities of changiiii; process equipm ent or methods of m anufacture or use of a io\io mu terial in order to reduce the potential hazard' " MR. H A T C H : I should like to speak at great long) h on lllis pniltl , but we d o n 't have the time. I t is a very im portant point. T h e r e are great possibilities for changing a situation from one of groat ihuqp'i' to one of relatively little danger through the proper design or choice of process equipm ent. I d o n 't know of anything more I'riiMl nil (up than to w ork on a p lan t problem and to realize, while wrest Img with it, th at it should never have existed in the first place, Somebody along the line failed to give proper attention to the selection of the rig h t kind of equipm ent so as to avoid the problem I feel Unit (lie industrial hygienists who, up to now, have been largely eoneeiiied with h azard control though application of ventilal ion and o ther simh secondary m easures m ust, in the future, give greater eomiidernl Inh (o redesign of the process equipment itself for purposcM of hll'^ard control. There are endless num bers of examples of llie creation of nH nil necessary problem because of the failure ol ilosipiuoai of pm ruw equi pm cut to inror| nirate into I hell' mi tla I I 111nk mg i pirn I mi 10 of loot, I it and to ,i<<<"|>I t nun tlm out wl a iespoiiMlnlil \ !o mm inn/o 111> {uilioi tial hazard which is on a p ar w ith the responsibility they assume for the operation of the process itself. DR. ZAPP: I would certainly agree with everything that Ted Hatch has said. I notice th a t this question really concerns three things: possibilities of changing process equipm ent, methods of m anu facture, and use of toxic m aterial. I am sure th a t -we could th in k of examples of all three. Ted has spoken of changing process equipm ent of one sort or the other. Then, the m anufacturer may sometimes be able to substitute a less toxic m aterial. As fa r as the h azard of use is concerned, I can think of some examples. I think it is alm ost a tru ism th a t we can control any toxic hazard if we are willing to go to the trouble to do it. Now, sometimes economies is a decisive fa cto r there. T hat is, if you have to take ex tensive measures to control a hazard, it may not he economically feasible to do it. M ODERATOR A H E A R N : T hank you, Dr. Zapp. Next question . " Can one distinguish between health im pairm ent resulting from effects of handling toxic m aterial an d th at resulting from fear (an x iety states) of effects from handling such m ateria ls' '' D r McGee DR McGEE I think the answ er is " y e s" for certain m ateria's and " no" for others. I f a satisfactory differential diagnosis is to be made, there are two requirem ents. F irst, there must be some objective test which is specific for the effects of the m aterial. B y th a t I mean, by reliable chemical analysis. Second, there m ust be the ability to rule out a sim ilar effect from an y th in g else w ith which the w orker may have come in contact inside or outside the plant. In other words, we m ust he able to say th a t a specific health im pairm ent resulted from the m aterial in question and u n d er circumstances where we can rule out other possible factors producing th at end result. An example is the anticholinesterase effects of certain phosphoruscontaining insecticides. You have an objective test, in most instances you have the opportunity to rule out other exposures which could alter significantly the level of cholinesterase in the blood: There is another field, however, of m aterials whose effects are signs and symptoms which are ra th e r vague I feel the clinician can not be sure whether such illness is a result of actual exposure to a materia] which is known to give such vague symptoms in the early stages Butterflies m the stomach, problems of sleeping, malaise and the like are symptoms found freq u en tly in the man who has an an x iety state. Sometimes the rceognizat ion that t he (exposure is insufii l ent to produce the diseased state gives us a reasonably good clue i.it an anxiety is responsible ( " Gt; 1 th in k all the physicians present here will recall in tln-ir ex periences examples of epidem ics of anxiety in groups of people liecause one or more workers felt th at he had developed illness from u p articu lar exposure. H e talked about it and others soon felt, ihcy hn<I the same symptoms. In some instances we have sufficient, control ol' the environment to know exactly what were the possibilities of c\pn sure and to say th at it is impossible, under the amount of exposure for the episode to be a bona tide exposure with resulting illness. T h eir fore, the entire thing m ust be on a psychosomatic basis. M ODERATOR A H E A R N : Now, we will go to another (pieslinn " How adequate are anim al experim ents as a means of p re d ictin g | (,x icity for human beings?" DR. Z A P P : If we are try in g to predict effects on the hunuin being, then the hum an being him self would be the ideal exporiinenliil animal. We c a n 't use m an as an experim ental animal, anil, therefore, we must accept other species as an im perfect substitute. Now, perhaps the soundest basis for predicting 1he HIVcIm on man from the effects on anim als is th at our internal anatomy ami physiology are ra th e r sim ilar. I f we are dealing with a chemical that produces liver dam age in dogs and other animals, then we ecu he fa irly sure th a t it will produce liver damage in man. We cannol he too sure about the q u an titativ e relationship. There are differences in species of susceptibility. Now, w ith all that, with the recognition that animal experimeii t.ation is an im perfect su b stitute, I think we can look with .some mjiI|n faction at results th a t we have obtained in predicting eHeels on ninn through anim al experim ents over the past 100 years. We have ret* tainly learned a lot from the anim als, and we have, with Ilie use of perhaps a rb itra ry factors of safety, been guided by IImse result a m setting up criteria for safe practices with respect to man. By and large, we have been successful There are exeepiionn There are m aterials th a t affect m an in ways that we cannot reproduce in any experim ental anim al, h u t they ire, fortunately, rat her mrc, MR H A T C H : 1 like the em phasis Dr Zapp pul on the ipuinli i at ive aspects. F o r obvious reasons, it is not possible to li'iiiislnlc Ilia findings on anim als for direct application to man llow adequate are anim al e\perinienIs ' In son....... they urn highly adequate and in some other eases they haven'I been iulri|illilr <V r t a i n h . unite o f us w a n t to g o a u : i \ f r o m here wi t h the u l r n Hint the e x p e r i m e n t a l aniiii.il c a n g i v e us all the . u r . w c r , , hut the\ l o n o p i \ e 11 us i ii f o r m a I ion o f e n o r m o u s v a l u e S o , t here e, im qui ' sl loti that Hie a i m n a l p l a y s a n 11 n por t a n t p a r t m the l ml \ ol l n\ i e u p e o t a MODERATOR A H E A R N : We have arrived at the moment when we would welcome questions or statem ents from the door I f anyone has a question to ask about any phase of the discussion of the panel, I would welcome his getting up and giving his name and asking his question or making Ms suggestion. DR. ANNA M B A E T JE R , Johns-Hopkms University. I know th at the time is very lim ited, and we have not had time to cover all the questions. I would p articu larly like the panel to discuss two ph ases: one. the three questions th a t deal w ith the labeling laws and the importance of these; and two, how can the consumer determine the composition of toxic m aterials sold under trade names? MODERATOR A H EA RN As a m atter of fact, we had grouped those three together. Dr. McGee, will you take off on those questions? DR. M cG E E : How can consumers determine the composition of toxic m aterials sold u n d er trade nam es? Sometimes it is almost im possible to do so, F rom the standpoint of a practicing physician tre a t ing acute poisoning, such inform ation comes in too late fo r him to help his patient. H is problem is th a t of taking a trade name and trying to find out what it means. He gets a chemical identity as the first step, and he still d o esn 't know w hat the m aterial is in a p h arm a cologic sense. He has to have th at m aterial classified in a pharm a cologic or toxicologic sense for the inform ation to be of any help to him. I f he doesn't know som ething of the biologic properties of the m aterial, if he doesn't know the site of action, he will have no basis for intelligent therapy. Too frequently, in our present setup, th at in form ation comes to him a little late to be in the best interests of the patient The labels are not big enough to contain all of this inform a tion which might be required by the physician. There are in some packages inserts of descriptive m aterial which can be of use to him in some instances. I think, frankly, we m ust im prove techniques for getting the in form ation th a t is required to the customer, and in tu rn , to his physi cian where there has been an accident and resulting illness. Poison control information centers may help. MODERATOR A H EA RN : Thank you very much. Dr. llaehman, you arc a chemical engineer. I believe everybody would like to hear your specific answers to the question of w hether a nianu I'actu rer of toxic m aterials can be compelled to follow labeling resl n o tions and c.mfioii.s as I'eeotnmended b\ the M anufacturing Uhcmis/s' Association Also, we would like to have your eoiumrnls on the cur icnl si at us of cllorls by a uum her of nrgau i/.aI ions, such as Ihr Maim ( | fa ctu rin g C hem ists' Association, to develop adequate labeling imd lo standardize labeling. DR. B A C H M A N : I d o n 't believe the M anufacturing (JhctniNls' Association has any authority. My answ er to th a t is no, 1 d o n 't lm> lieve m anufacturers can be compelled to follow the reeonmiendatiouti of the M anufacturing Chem ists' Association. On the other hand, I think it is highly desirable th a t they cooperate to the maximum degree possible, and I think the great m ajority of the m anufacturers do a t tem p t to do this because m ost of them are members of the Mainline turing Chem ists' Association. Now, as to the cu rren t status of these efforts, th a t is perhaps one of the most active committees in the M anufacturing C hem ists' Anan ciation. In m any cases, it has form ulated codes and labels to be ttsei), which I believe are being used. Of course. I th in k the crux of the whole question here is for mieli organizations as the M anufacturing Chem ists' Association, The Amer ican M edical Association, and the chemical specialty people lo gel In gether an d try to form ulate a coordinated policy on la biding. We are always going to have difficulties if you have several approaches in labeling. I th in k we m ust have a unified approach or, if it is limlttm down into compartments, these compartments must all originate from the same source. T h at is, they m ust originate from Hie same aul Imri ly, be th a t au th o rity one th a t results because people work together or oho th a t is enforced by virtue of government action M ODERATOR A H EA R N - There are a number of association, including the M anufacturing C hem ists' Association, busy in lliis field I believe the A m erican Medical Association is equally active, I t seems to me, Dr. Zapp, I should ask you lo devote yourself specifically to the question, " H o w can consumers determ ine Ihe rout position of toxic m aterials sold under trade* nam es"" DR. Z A P P : Before I answ er Dial, .Mr Abeam , I would like to make one comment on the current status of (lie work of llirse vnrioiin associations The M anufacturing Chem ists' Assoeiahon, llirougli flnfir I'ei-cattl ternary Committee, tin* Chemical Spceia II ms M anufacturing Association, and the, American Medical Association have agreed Hint lliey will work ingot her tow ards w ording of some uniform labeling law or at least, a sol of principles (hat will guide Ilioso \urtoiitt mmnotii (ions 'I'lie CS.M A. group is now meeting m Philadelphia oil ltfin very same subject Thai is the current status as far as I kirnw Wi l li respect lo (Question HI, I t hi nk that all three el the opem'lnw I h a v e just m e n t i o n e d . Hie M a i i n l a e l u r i m * ( ' Iteimsl-,' \ssoiMnt hm, | ! C S.M.A., and A.M.A. agree th a t there should be more inform ation on product labels than there is at the present time. I believe w ith respect to the industrial uses of chemicals, th at industry is fa irly well satisfied w ith M .C.A .'s principles of labeling as expressed in its Manual of W arning Labels, with which I presume all of you are familiar. However, when it comes to the consumer, and particu larly the user of small packages of cleaning powder or toothpaste or cement or what have you, it is agreed th at there should be more inform ation on the label so th a t the user will have some idea of the active in g re dients and some idea of the hazards involved in an accidental expo sure to m aterial. One of the most freq u en t inquiries I suppose that we get in the du Pont Company is, w hat happens if a child swallows a little d u P o n t cement? It was never intended for that purpose, of course, but the question is, w hat happens? F o rtu n ately , the answer to th a t is. ''''prac tically nothing, d o n 't w orry about i t " ; hut t h a t 's the thing th a t the person needs to be reassured about. The physicians, on the other hand, would like to see on the label the kind of inform ation th at would enable them to trea t cases of accidental exposure. Now, with all the good will in the world on the p a rt of these organizations, there are still many practical difficulties involved in form ulating a set of label ing principles th a t will do the job to everyone's satisfaction. The householder really wants to know how to keep out of trouble and avoid calling the M .D .'s. A nd so it goes Now, T think that something is going to be done, and out of all this activity there will be more product information on the labels. Meanwhile, we have the resources th at D r. McGee told us about, the poison control centers There are one or two compilations th at give us a good deal of inform ation about the trade name products, and Dr. Hodge of the University of Rochester is coming out with an encyclo pedia which will give more inform ation of that type. But, ultim ately, the m anufacturer is the best source of inform ation if you need it. In most of these eases where inform ation is needed m a h u rry , I th in k it can be best obtained by getting in touch with the m an u fa ctu rer or his branch office. MODERATOR AHEARN- Thank you. Dr Zapp Mr RaiR, T believe to complete the discussion, you ought to answer this question : " Are present labeling laws adequate w ith respect to requiring w arn ing and preventive m easures as to toxic q u alities?" MR. H A IL E . I think lliere we first have to define the sense, in winch we are using 1lie lerm adequate If we use the word in the ,ense that eninpii,nice assures im munity From liability for the maim | 210 | facturer, our answ er w ould be one th in g : and on the o th er hand, if we mean by adequate in the sense of sufficient requirem ents and on forcem ent to protect the public from injury, I think there is a dif ferent answer. P ro m the first stan d p o in t, labeling laws as such do n o t give im m unity from liability to a m an u factu rer by mere com pliance w ith tinlabeling law. The common law itself imposes a du ty upon the maim facturer to bring to the attention of the users of his product and people who are in the vicinity of its use, the dangers w hich arc in herent in its use or m ay flow from it lie m ust comply with tlml standard. C onsidering it from the second standpoint-- of the adequacy <>l the laws to protect the public from in ju ry -- I think we have 1o say ilial the laws as such are inadequate. I am also one of those who 1ms IInview th a t the laws will always be inadequate, because 1 think Ihere u. necessarily a lag between technology and its development, and (In ability of legislators to act. F o r th a t reason, 3 have always felt that effective labeling lege, lation should be broad an d general in its terms and depend for Hli-.tiveness upon detailed and limited regulations issued iiursuaiil m th at broad general sta tu te I think when this is done, wc arc tlu-n able to more quickly adopt regulations to changing conditions .-uni lit more effectively enable in d u stry to comply, because they can In- imm specific and thus more clearly understood. As you know, the num ber of labeling statutes that exist dolus are bad E ven the person who confines his attention to that sub,tool and nothing else, an d there are few people who do, not only lias tlnvo or fo u r federal statu tes w ith which he m ust deal, bid llicrc an- niouo 28 separate state statutes, and then there is a m ultitude of loi-ul or dinances th at have other effects upon us They have main ndvauliigcb from the stan d p o in t of im posing crim inal liability. In all im.liiiiccn however, they are not effective in enabling authoril n-s to take nut of the m arket the products th a t do not meet 11k- requii-eineiiIm of llmoo statutes, and needless to say, the only was Dial you can n-nliy oll'eo lively prevent harm from substances Ilia! arc im properly in IIn- mnr ket, is to "exclude ilje'ii from tin- iiiarkc! in con Iisc.-iIion, Mr. A hearn, 1 would sax by way of summary lliat, yea. <mr ltilo`1 mg laws are inadequate They need to hi- changed amt I am hopeful they will bo. Mlv WATIORS I think Iho audience would he 11111-1-i.11-it in (lo1 question oi whi-lliic n iduslnes should loll lln-u cmpliiycc-i dial Iho in.don,il Ilies' an- li.milim-- is loxn- or ............... | 27 1 ] M ODERATOR A H E A R N : I think we decided to group th a t question with the question, " Should information on the presence of toxic exposures in industry, obtained by health departm ents, be given to labor unions and employees or only to management ?'' D r. McGee. DR. M cG E E : In answer to the first question, I have found no way to conduct a program which will get the cooperation of the em ployees without giving them the reasons for it. These people are en titled to it. I think the only successful program s that I have observed else where, outside of our organization, are those in which the employee has some knowledge of why he follows certain operating procedures regardless of w hat the end effect is of the m aterial or the end effect m ight be in the m aterials th a t he handles. Therefore, I w ould say th at we m ust give the employee th a t knowledge so th a t he can u n d e r stand and use it in coming to a conclusion as to why he m ust do cer tain thing's to protect himself. I think the same statem ents ap p ly to organized groups and safety committees and union leaders. MODERATOR A H EA R N : You draw no distinction as to infor mation made available ? DR. M c G E E : T h a t's right. FLOOR S P E A K E R : I t is required in Ohio to tell the employees of the toxic m aterial in the d ep artm en t and it is required to re p eat it to them monthly. M ODERATOR A H E A R N . Thank you ver\- much. M ANFRED BOW DITCH, Lead Industries Association: I think there were two im portant m atters not covered in the discussion of labeling. F irst of all. D r McGee said th at very frequently the nature of the toxic substances gets to the doctor too late. I w onder if he is aware of the fact that the A m erican Academy of Pediatrics has now established over 30 poison control centers from coast to coast. There are 15 in the S tate of F lo rid a alone. A ll of them are m anned by tele phone 24 hours a day. All are in charge of a physician, and a t a meeting only day before yesterday it was agreed that the Public Health Service will be asked to take over the national direction of these centers and see th a t cu rren t inform ation is supplied to all of them. I really think th a t this is of importance. W ith regard to the m atter of warning labels, there is a body of laws known as the Pharmacy Laws, which were designed to protect the public in p u r chases over drug store counters. In a court in one of the southern stall's recently, one of these laws was interpreted to cover a shipm ent ill lilharue in in d ustry and an aw ard of $18,000 was m ade on that l 272 ] basis, and at the present time I understand th at fu rth er suits amounl ing to $80,000 are before the courts. I am told that only aboul hull' n dozen of th e states have adequate exemptions to p rev en t such mininterpretations. O nly about three weeks ago I discussed this willi representatives of the M anufacturing C hem ists' Association, and it is my u n derstanding th a t they will take steps to try to bring proper exemptions into the laws of the other states. MR. T. J. LA N IG A N , General E lectric Company.- 1 would like to hear discussion on the question: "'How is it best possible to main tain a continuing safety awareness among employees engaged in hazardous occupations involving the use of toxic m aterials ?'' MR. H A T C H : To have an effective safety program Ilie people who are attem p tin g to do this must m aintain among themselves mi awareness of safety needs th at is stronger th an the safety uwnrouesn of the employees. I have no p articu lar procedure to sugge.sf .since I have had no special experience in developing and m aintaining such awareness. I do know from experience, however, th a t there is greai risk if such awareness is not m aintained and developed on the port of everybody concerned. We have all seen good programs break down because of lack of m aintenance of awareness. M ODERATOR A H E A R N : Dr. Zapp, would von connneiil ? DR. Z A P P . I will only add to what Ted Hatch has said. I Dunk the promotion of the continual awareness of the safety program among employees is a responsibility of supervision. Kupervisnrs will only do it if they know th at higher m anagement wants them lo do it Now, when safety policy is set at the top level of company immtige m ent and is passed on down through the various supervisory elmniieU to the employees, then I believe the program can lie m aintained fide quately, and the employees will have a continuing awareness <il` the program . I f the forem an goes around an area without wearing n nuiMlt where a m ask is required or w ithout w earing safely glasses in mi area where safety glasses are required, obviously, bv his example, lie is going to underm ine the whole program . If. on Hie otlu-r limul, ho goes in w ith a mask on or goes in with so let v glasses on and inaml th a t others do likewise, he has a good chance of enforcing ihe ride# and m aintaining the continued awareness that this qiicslioi! ape/ilta of. M ODERATO R A IIE A R N : Thank you Mr I'.ailr, \<m are |lie general counsel of an insurance eompaiiv II seems lo me you arc file panelist to answer these two questions "W h at methods are a vmlnlile to insurance carriers to assisl (heir msined:. in Ho- protection of cm plovers and Ihe piirelinsinp publ i c h u m tin ha/.iids o f Io mc nni terials?" and, " W hat methods are available to insurance carriers to assist small industries in the detection and control of hazardous con ditions?" MR. B A IL E : I think those questions are prim arily directed to the insurance carriers' place in contributing towards the reduction of accidents in industry, either among the employees or in users of the product or in th ird parties who m ight be otherwise affected by the ac tivity of the employees of an industry. I think that it can probably come under eight points : P irs t is the function th a t D r. Zapp has already m entioned, th a t is, through the sale of the insurance there is brought to the atten tio n of top management the im portance of the safety program . I t has a very direct influence on the am ount of costs, a very su b stan tial item in the cost of any industry. B y bringing that to bear on the top management, you get the influence which Dr Zapp suggested, which is so necessary, of th at philosophy going' down through the various echelons of the company. Also, I think it is th a t very force th at brought about the changes in the philosophy of industry that we referred to earlier. I think the safety awareness of in d u stry has been, to a great extent, brought about by the influence of the salesmanship, if you will, of the insur ance industry. B ut in a more practical sense, the insurance in d u stry contributes through its engineering facilities and its suggestions and participation in the development of safety programs in any industry. This consists of arranging and conducting safety meetings, distribut ing the proper type of literature, and the proper type of postings. Secondly, by its own engineering, it supplements the safety program of a company in ascertaining where the hazards in th at industry exists. A nd in doing so, it approaches it, I think, w ith a g re a te r ob jectivity, because it is uninfluenced by those unconscious influences which company people are subject to, such as the costs of changing a process, the reduction in time, or the increase in time which some change of process to incorporate a safety factor would involve. Another way in which they can contribute is in the preparation of a catastrophe plan fo r specific hazards. Insurance carriers can aid in the developm ent cf d rills so th a t companies are piepaxeu m the event those catastrophes occur. A nother m anner in which they aid is m the supplying of in fo r mation for the preparation and distribution of safety m aterial. The msiirmiee in d u stry acquires the collective knowledge of m any indu.sIries and can bring (hut knowledge to 1he aid of a p a rtic u la r com pany The inMiranee ru m o r also aids in the preparation of purchasing [ 271 1 agent m anuals, which is a method of coordinating the receipt of toxicm aterials into a p lan t, so th at knowledge comes to the attention of (Inproduction personnel of the n ature of the pro d u ct th a t is being brought in, in order that proper safety precautions can be taken. Finally, I think the contribution that the insurance carrier can make is to m a in ta in the awareness of safety I think the greal difli culty th a t occurs in m any industries is th at you develop a program he avoid accidents and prevent accidents It has a peak, and then it tends to slacken off. E v ery once in awhile it needs to be rejuvenated I think the fact th at the engineers of the insurance carrier and its slnll' come in re g u la rly and constantly bring safety to the attention of Un people at the production level helps establish the habit of safely mid it is th at h ab it which in the long ru n will prevent m any accidents. M ODERATO R A H E A R N . On that same point, will you rlalm rate on m ethods available to insurance carriers to assist small indns tries ? MR. B A IL E : I m ight say this: I think there is a distinction Hud should be d raw n there. In some industries, because of tlioir size, ihe,\ are able to em ploy the technical talent which is required in eiieei mg a sound safety program : whereas in other industries, because of die small num ber of employees they are not able to have people wlm will specialize in those p a rtic u la r problems. In th at instance, (lie insurance carriers become another arm of the company and supply 1 willi Iccliui cal talent w hich it doesn't have available within its own personnel. MR 0 V IA T T : Air. Baile, isn 't it true that the insu ranee ennr panics look to the larger m anufacturers many times lo gel nil'ornm tion on these toxic m aterials, on the processes that are used and (Insafety devices th a t may be necessary? MR B A IL E . V ery much so. MR. O V IA T T : A nd then they can imparl dial knowledge lo the smaller com panies th a t are not in a posilion lo hire these highly trained experts? MR B A IL E I WOllId s a v t h a t is de f i n i t e l y fei | e MR. O V IA T T : There is also another way I think you will lieur me out on (Ins-- 1ha1 insurance companies have been helpful T h a i la in making counts-- fume counts, petrographic analyses, and no forth T h e y go into the limits to make ill esc and make lli-'ir ivconc incmlal ions MR It A I IJ-! I is, dial is rigid MR. O V IA TT: I would like to add ju st one word if I may to the earlier question on efforts to develop adequate labeling and to standardize labeling. Those on the panel who spoke to th at question failed, I think, to m ention the fact th at the M anufacturing Chem ists' Association at present has a law, a proposed federal law for labeling and for the fa r more im portant m atter of confiscation. You can have crim inal statutes all over the place, but throwing a man in jail or fin ing him $10,000 will n o t save the life of someone using a chemical th a t is not p ro p erly labeled. I think this confiscation featu re is all-im por tant. This new law that M.C.A. proposes does take care of th at ade quately as to the defining of w hat a poison is and setting forth tests for determ ining a poison. Now, what will become of th at law. no one knows T h at is the present statu s of the M .C .A 's efforts. MODERATOR A I1EA RN : Thank you DR. BACHMAN : I would like to comment in reference to earlier questions. To m aintain safety awareness you m ust say th at a company has to tell its employees w hat the nature of the m aterials is which they are handling, whether they are toxic or carcinogenic, because you can never have a safety program unless you give the people working with toxic or carcinogenic m aterials such inform ation. I d o n 't think th a t was adequately emphasized before. I think as far as the question of the most economical and best way a small plant can get help on problems of toxicity and industrial hygiene, the obvious answ er is a good consultant. I d o n 't know if there is enough consulting work done in a continuous m anner with the different smaller companies. DR. THOMAS L. SHIPM AN, Los Alamos Scientific L aboratory. I would like to have this question discussed: " If a m anufacturer con forms to the highest standards of an industry m the m anufacture of his product, will th at be a complete defense in an action against him for injuries resulting from his product?" In placing this question before the panel, I would like to rem ind them of the experience of some of the electrical p roduct m anufacturers and th eir difficulties with beryllium MODERATOR A H E A R N : Mr Oviatt, let me ask you to answer that question. MR. O V IA T T : I th ink th a t can be categorically answ ered as " no." There have been cases where a court has held th at even though 1lie* standards of the in d u stry have been followed, the highest sta n d ards, Ilia! un d er flic eirem nstances those stan d ard s w eren't high . enough. E ach individual m an u factu rer must assess his own product and go beyond, under certain circumstances, the standards set by the industry. T hat is so even though labeling laws are followed. M OD ERA TO R A H E A R N : Mr. Baile, would you care to add some thing to that answer ? MR. B A I L E : By way of a d d itio n : The responsibility of Ilie m anufacturer is essentially one to conform with the standard of cure th a t the law imposes. Now, th a t stan d ard may be imposed e ith er by statute, b y ju dicial decision or by w hat is probably a p re tty vague standard, namely, the standard of care of a reasonable man acting under those circumstances. Now, in determ ining whether that third standard has been met, n court or ju ry should take into consideration what the practices mid stan d ard s of an in d u stry are, but they are only a m easure for the fuelfinder to use and are not binding upon them. In other words, the wide spread adoption of a particular method or practice will he a test for determ ining whether or not reasonable care was used. B ut llie courts have said th a t 12 lay people, who d o n 't know a thing about, (be busi ness, can say you could have used more care. I c a n 't believe Hint reasonable care can be any more th a n an industry would use, because I d o n 't th in k in d u stry would ever adopt, as a widespread practice, a careless practice if there were a safe one. The court seems to think Ilia! 12 jurors can say they can. I m ight say, whenever I have been confronted with that, problem, I have always remembered the one judge who said the only reasonable m an he ever knew was his w ife 's first husband. AIR. S C H W B N Z F E IR , JR ., B rush Beryllium Company I would i like to have the expression of the panel on the distinction in l a b e l in g procedure between w hat is required for a retail product and wind In ' required for in d u strial products. I t has been infernal that it is not p articu larly im p o rtan t to exercise greater rare in labeling if Ilie ^ product is to be handled in commercial use. though it may be m retail, 5 I t is im plied in another question that the maimfnet u rer of Ilie I toxic m aterial can pass the responsibility on to the eorpoiale pur ] chaser, who, m tu rn , passes the hazard on to his rinployrr. 1 woiub'i* if th at is really correct. MR. B A IL E . If 1 understand your question, it is llmi, YVlielhri a m an u factu rer lias a dut y with respect to riving \\ uriiiui"-: uu In (|io attributes of the product to Hie ulliiu.ile i'oiimiiiii-i':, wlieiv lie aellh, let \ sa \ . toil middle purchaser who repaekai'es it nr -niiiol ll Iug l||m Ib.il " f MR. S C H W E N Z F E IR , J R . : No, in te rm itte n t han d ler is another production concern, like this bulk packaging th at was in one of the earlier questions of the program. MR. B A IL E : Your question, then, concerns the liability of the m anufacturer who distributes in bulk to people who handle th at prod uct in transportation and who are employees of the purchaser who use it in some m anufacturing process? MR SC H W EN ZFEIR , JR : Right. MR. B A IL E : I would say by way of answering that, first of all. T.C C regulations, of course, control to a large degree the require ments of labeling in transportation. Now, they are designed p rim arily for the protection of employees who are handling it in tran sp o rta tion, and, of course, conformance with th at is required and if there is a lack of conformance and inju ry results to employees of carriers who are tran sp o rtin g it, liability would be imposed From the standpoint of the employees of the purchaser of the product, the problem there, as I see it, is t h i s : The law imposes upon the m anufacturer the obligation to give warning, reasonably calcu lated to call to the attention of the users or potential users of the product the hazards that are apparent in th at produet. Now, notice, it is a d u ty of reasonableness th at is imposed upon them. It would be an utter impossibility for the m anufacturer of car bon tetrachloride, le t's say, to go to every employee in every m an u facturing p lan t th at uses th at and inform them as to the hazards th a t are involved in the use of it. So. the law recognizes, u n d er those c ir cumstances, th a t if the m anufacturer brings to the attention of the purchaser whose employees are going to use it, the hazards of that product, or if the purchaser without having it brought to his attention is aware of th e hazards of th a t product, then there is no obligation on the p art of the m anufacturer to inform them, because the law never requires a m an to do a vain act. You d o n 't have to tell somebody the Hangers in a p ro d u ct when he already knows them T hen the law im poses upon th a t employer the du ty of providing his employees w ith a safe place to work and of passing on knowledge of hazards to the miplo.yees .so the employee can take such action and exerei.se such care is is necessary for his own protection Does th a t answ er the question or am I still missing it Ml !. S O I ! W E N Z F E 1 R . -JR T h a t ' s it T h a n k yon MODERATOR lie Moor 1 A II E A R N Now, is there .i not her (|iicst urn from | :?7S l M E. W. W. H O D G E, K oppers Company, In c .: 1 w ould like 1 hear discussion on the question of how industry can best w ork willi governm ental groups in order to be certain th at reg u latio n s fo r tim control of hazardous materials are proper and reasonable. M ODERATOR A H E A R N : Mr. Hatch, we had assigned you lo answer that question. MR. H A TC H : I am not certain what the fram er of this question h ad in m ind-- obviously, there are m any different answ ers to it. In d u stry , presumably, does have a large volume of informal ion th at can be best utilized by working with governm ental agencies in order th a t the proper regulations be form ulated. I have in mind one v ery specific way in which in d u stry is working w ith an official a gency to make sure of proper regulations, and th at is in the S tale of New York, where under the procedures for developing or re gula tin g node fo r in d u stry , it is required th a t an advisory committee be f or mul at ed, in clu d in g representatives from the industries directly involved, i Iioh who su p p H equipm ent to be used in industry, rep resen lalives from labor unions, and so on. Now, I think the im portant point here is th is: in the very I'riim ing of this procedure, recognition is given to the fact tlial llic prob lem pertaining to the use of a particular toxic substance in one p a r ticu lar in d u stry may be different from the problem tlial arises in Ilm use of th a t same toxic substance in some other i n d u s t r y , ami dial lo be reasonable regulations m ust recognize this. Regtilal ions developed from this point of view are distinguished, for example, from a ........ml reg u latio n which consists p rin cip ally of a list of permissible eoneeip trations. Take carbon monoxide, for example; adoquale regidalnm for control of this hazardous gas should be different from regida Ihum governing its control in steel mills. This is recognized in the New York procedure, ami provnibmw are m ade fo r the active participation in fornmlnt ion of industry code by those people from the industries who do have needed in I'moiinlhiu an d experience. Obviously, to be objective, il must be an tV('( I by fill those who do particip ate th at the purpose is lo come mil with a regti, iation which will, in fact, prevent ill healfh or aecideiils, W e had in this room nol long ago a public Hireling w h i c h bad file same purpose here1 m Pennsylvania Prior lo (be official ado|ihon (if regulations pertaining to a certain imliisl rial liii/.ard, people fimif the industries who could b r i n g mporlan! mi lonnal am .mil i-\ pet imme lo bear on Ihe problem were inviled lo alleml and I'nuliilm lr imggi'u lions w h i c h would make the final code mine el'lVr! i\ o I hrlirvi- ||tn| |lu> mi It Isl rn-s llml do h.m tins in format mu -boiilil m-|< nnir mnl mdi.ed ! :!'/! | should search for opportunities to b rin g this inform ation to the official agencies and work with them in translating it into reasonable regu lations M ODERATO R A H E A R N - Now, we have room fo r about one more question Who has a question to ask? R. C. ERICKSON, A lum inum Company of A m erica: H ow would you propose to bridge the gap between safety and the business re vealing trade secrets when such became necessary in the interest of safety ? DR. B A C H M A N : Of course, the question of tra d e secrets is rather an interesting question. If you have rather a fundam ental patent on a process, you usually are adequately protected. L e t's tr y to confine ourselves to the area where we say the patent protection is not available. I think this is going to be a tough one. F ran k ly , I think about the only way th a t it could be handled would be-- well, there are two ways. If the num ber of com panies in volved were small, I think it likely that Company A possessing the trad e secret m ight be quite w illing to make the inform ation available to Com pany B w ith the sole restriction th at this inform ation not be used by Company B except insofar as it was used for the purposes of protecting the health of the employees or for rendering the work safely. If the secret information or the confidential inform ation, let us say, were to be used for purposes of profit in the m anufacture of the item, there Company A would properly expect a rem uneration from Company B. This is fairly standard w ithout the elem ent of safety. There are a lot of companies today that go out and deliberately buy confidential information rather than patent inform ation. W hen you go beyond the relationship existing between the few companies and tr y and say th at this is som ething th a t would be broadly ap p lic able to a g reat num ber of companies, I d o n 't know how you could do th at except th rough some form of perhaps very fine social feeling, let us say, social consciousness on the p a rt of the company possessing those tra d e secrets and indicating a willingness to make available In their fellow countrym en at large such inform ation 1 think ilia t is the only other possible approach whereby you can achieve Iliat Bo, I think you have tw o cases; one, when* the n u m b e r o f c o m panies involved are limited, this can be handled W here the com pan ies i n v o l v e d a r e not l i m i t e d a n d v e r y l a r ge , t h e n \ on m u s t d e p e n d , I believe, e n t i r e l y upon I lie social consciousness of the ina ling,e m e u I of the compilin' ho ldi ng the tr a d e secret | :;so | \< M O D E R A TO R A H E A R N : You would never th in k it wise to u n d ertak e concealm ent if the price of concealm ent was to bring lifllculties to a m a n 's health? DR. B A C H M A N : Of course, I am a little b it biased. I d o n `l be. lieve people are such blackguards that they would do those tiling M O D E R A TO R A H E A R N : Gentlemen, I th in k I an ticip ate the wishes of the audience when I express to Dr. McGee, D r. I'.ncliinmi, Mr. Baile, Mr. Oviatt, Dr. Zapp, and Mr. Hatch, your appreciation of the co n tribution which they have made to our know ledge We hove h ad a d istinguished panel, and I hope and believe th a t we have Inn I a very profitable session. I would like to say on behalf of the panel, you have been n good audience. You have been very attentive and very courteous, and tlnd has inspired the panel to do a good job. You have to have n good audience to have a good panel We have had both here hxbiy I II