Document 3gZQkDpRBnnydekyeRZkx6G3

file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (1 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 1 1 IN THE DISTRICT COURT 2 298TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 3 NO. 00-05448-M 4 5 ************** 6 CARY J. BURTON and JAMES BROOKS HILL, * 7 Plaintiffs, * 8 v. * 9* 10 U.S. GYPSUM COMPANY, et al., * 11 Defendants. * 12 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 13 VOLUME I 14 PAGES 1-217 15 DEPOSITION OF HAROLD Z. RIDDAR, a 16 witness called on behalf of the Plaintiffs 17 in the first three captions, pursuant to the 18 Texas Rules of Civil Procedure, before 19 Jessica L. Williamson, Court Reporter and 20 Notary Public in and for the Commonwealth of 21 Massachusetts, at the offices of Cetrulo & 22 Capone, LLP, 2 Seaport Lane, Boston, 23 Massachusetts, on Wednesday, February 6, 24 2002, commencing at 10:26 a.m. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (2 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 2 1 STATE OF TEXAS 2 NUECES, ss. 94th JUDICAL DISTRICT 3 CAUSE NO. 00 -464 -C 4 ************** 5 SALLY JONES SULLIVAN, Individually and * 6 as personal Representative of the * 7 Heirs and Estate of GUINN BINFORD * 8 SULLIVAN, JR., Deceased, et al., * 9* 10 Plaintiffs, * 11 v. * 12 * 13 GAF CORPORATION, (successor to * 14 RUBEROID CORPORATION), et al., * 15 Defendants. * 16 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (3 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 3 1 STATE OF TEXAS 2 NUECES, ss. 94TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 3 CAUSE NO. 00-2711-C 4 ************** 5 REID FOGLE CLANTON, et al. * 6 Plaintiffs, * 7 v. * 8* 9 GAF CORPORATION, (successor to * 10 RUBEROID CORPORATION), et al., * 11 Defendants. * 12 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 13 STATE OF TEXAS 14 DALLAS, ss. 94TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 15 CAUSE NO. DV00-05501-E 16 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 17 ELWYN CLYDE STEELMAN, et al., * 18 Plaintiffs, * 19 v. * 20 * 21 ARMSTRONG WORLD INDUSTRIES, INC., et * 22 al., * 23 Defendants. * 24 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (4 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 4 1 AP P EARAN C E S 2 3 BARON & BUDD, P.C. 4 (By Richard I. Nemeroff, Esq. 5 Christopher J. Panatier, Esq. 6 and Jacqueline M. Montejano, Esq.) 7 The Centrum 8 3102 Oak Lawn Avenue 9 Suite 1100 10 Dallas, Texas 75219-4281 11 (214) 521-3605 12 Counsel for the Plaintiffs in the first 13 three captions 14 15 SILBER & PEARLMAN, L.L.P. 16 (By Michael J. Hanners, Esq.) 17 2711 N. Haskell Avenue 18 Fifth Floor, LB 32 19 Dallas, Texas 75204 20 (214) 874-7000 21 Counsel for the Plaintiffs Elwyn Clyde 22 Steelman, et al. 23 24 G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1 _020602.txt (5 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 5 1 A P P E A R A N C E S, Continued 2 3 DeHAY & ELLISTON, L.L.P. 4 (By Gary D. Elliston, Esq.) 5 NationsBank Plaza 6 901 Main Street 7 Suite 3500 8 Dallas, Texas 75202 9 (214) 210-2401 10 Counsel for Riley Stoker and the Deponent 11 12 CETRULO & CAPONE, LLP 13 (Annette M. Boelhouwer, Esq.) 14 Two Seaport Lane 15 Boston, Massachusetts 02210 16 (617) 217-5500 17 National Counsel for Riley Stoker 18 19 ALSO PRESENT: 20 21 Brian Colburn 22 23 24 G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (6 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 6 1 INDEX 2 DEPONENT PAGE 3 HAROLD Z. RIDDAR 4 Examination by Mr. Nemeroff 9, 200 5 Examination by Mr. Elliston 180 6 7 EXHIB ITS 8 NO. PAGE 9 10 1 First Amended Notice 9 11 12 2 Amended Notice 9 13 14 3 Amended Notice 9 15 16 4 Master's Recommendation 9 17 18 5 Document headed "Trowelable 19 Light Weight Plastic 20 Refractories" 40 21 22 6 Notice of Time and Place of 23 Further Hearing 44 24 G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (7 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 7 1 EXHIB ITS 2 NO. PAGE 3 4 7 Workmen's Compensation 5 Commission Awared 53 6 7 8 Letter dated January 9, 1957 56 8 9 9 Memo dated July 31, 1972 84 10 11 10 Handwritten document dated 12 3/24/72 84 13 14 11 Eagle-Picher document headed 15 "Back Order, Shipping Order, 16 Plant Copy" 101 17 18 12 No exhibit marked 19 20 13 Drawings labeled "Lewis" 177 21 22 14 Drawings labeled "Clanton" 177 23 24 15 Drawings labeled "Sullivan" 177 G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (8 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 8 1 EXHIB ITS 2 NO. PAGE 3 4 16 Riley Stoker document headed 5 "In the News of the Day" 177 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (9 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 9 1 PROCEED INGS 2 (Documents marked as Exhibits 1 3 through 4 for identification.) 4 5 HAROLD Z. RIDDAR, 6 a witness called on behalf of the Plaintiffs 7 in the first three cases, having first been 8 duly sworn, was deposed and testifies as 9 follows: 10 11 DIRECT EXAMINATION 12 13 BY MR. NEMEROFF: 14 Q. Hi, Mr. Riddar. How are you? 15 A. Fine, thank you. 16 Q. My name is Rick Nemeroff, and I represent a 17 group of plaintiffs, and I'm going to ask 18 you some questions. How many times have you 19 given a deposition before on behalf of Riley 20 Stoker in a context of asbestos-related 21 claims? 22 A. One time. 23 Q. And how many times have you given testimony 24 at trial on behalf of Riley Stoker in G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (10 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 10 1 connection with asbestos claims? 2 A. None. 3 Q. Have you ever been to Texas? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. When was the last time you were in Texas? 6 A. I don't know the exact date. It was last 7 year sometime. 8 Q. In what connection? 9 A. With a deposition. 10 Q. For what kind of case? 11 A. I can't recall right now. 12 Q. It wasn't asbestos, though? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. Well, let me ask the question again. 15 You just told me you've only given one 16 deposition before for asbestos-related 17 claims, and that deposition was last year in 18 Texas? 19 A. I didn't take the deposition. I was there 20 for the deposition, but it was not taken. 21 Q. So you appeared, but no one ever took it? 22 A. Right. 23 Q. All right. Let me ask this question, then: 24 How many times have you appeared at a G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (11 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 11 1 deposition in connection with Riley Stoker 2 and asbestos-related claims where a 3 deposition did not go forward? 4 A. One time. 5 Q. And how many times have you appeared on 6 behalf of Riley Stoker in connection with 7 asbestos claims to testify at trial but 8 where you did not actually testify? 9 A. Not at trial. 10 Q. So they've never called you down to a 11 courthouse and said you're going to go on, 12 and then told you nope, you're not going on 13 today? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Sir, do you believe that asbestos exposure 16 can cause mesothelioma? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And, sir, when did you first learn that? 19 A. I can't give you an exact date. I don't -20 Q. Can you give me a decade? 21 A. End of '70s, 1970s, I would suppose 22 Q. And do you recall how you learned that 23 exposure to asbestos can cause mesothelioma 24 in the 1970s? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (12 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 12 2 Q. And where would you have read about it? 3 A. The newspapers. 4 Q. And do you recall what was being written 5 about asbestos causing mesothelioma in the 6 1970s in newspapers? 7 A. Not exactly. I can't recall the newspaper 8 or -9 Q. Do you recall reading about asbestos causing 10 mesothelioma in the 1970s in OSHA 11 regulations that were promulgated at that 12 time? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Would you consider yourself to have been 15 familiar with the OSHA regulations 16 pertaining to asbestos in the 1970s when you 17 were employed by Riley Stoker? 18 A. Would you repeat that, please? 19 Q. Sure. Would you consider yourself to have 20 been familiar with the OSHA regulations 21 pertaining to asbestos in the 1970s when you 22 were employed by Riley Stoker? 23 A. I read it once briefly. 24 Q. Do you recall reading in the OSHA G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (13 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 13 1 regulations that exposure to asbestos for as 2 little as three months could cause 3 mesothelioma? 4 MR. ELLISTON: Objection to form. 5 Q Okay. And your answer? 6 A No. I don't recall reading anything like 7 that. 8 Q Do you believe that exposure to asbestos can 9 cause lung cancer? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And when is it that you first learned that 12 exposure to asbestos can cause lung cancer? 13 A In the '70s. 14 Q And how is it that you learned that exposure 15 to asbestos can cause lung cancer in the 16 1970s? 17 A It was common knowledge at that time. 18 Q Common knowledge among who? 19 A The press. 20 Q When you say "The press," that's a rather 21 broad statement. Could you be more specific 22 as to what press you're talking about? Are 23 you talking about the -- well, you tell me 24 what you mean by "The press." G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (14 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 14 1 A Well, newspapers, radio. 2 Q Are you able to tell me specifically - 3 withdraw that. 4 In the 1970s where were you living? 5 A Worcester, Massachusetts. To be more exact, 6 Paxton, Massachusetts. 7 Q Here's my real tough question of the day: 8 Do you remember what newspapers you would 9 subscribe to back in the 1970s that would 10 have carried such information? 11 A The Worcester Program Gazette. 12 Q Did you ever subscribe to the New York 13 Times? 14 A No. 15 Q Did you read the New York Times in the 16 1970s? 17 A Occasionally. 18 Q How about the Newsweek Magazine? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Do you believe, sir, that exposure to 21 asbestos can cause gastrointestinal cancers? 22 A I have no knowledge of that. 23 Q Did you meet with the lawyers for Riley 24 Stoker before giving your deposition here G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (15 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 15 1 today? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And when did you first meet with them? 4 A. I don't have an exact date. A couple of 5 weeks ago. 6 Q. And how many times have you met with them? 7 A. Several times. 8 Q. And more than ten? 9 A. No. 10 Q. More than five? 11 A. About five. 12 Q. Okay. And would you be able to approximate 13 for me how long each of those meetings 14 lasted with the Riley Stoker lawyers? 15 A. Four to six hours perhaps. 16 Q. Four to six hours each time? 17 A. Yes, about. 18 Q. And are you represented by the lawyers here 19 for Riley Stoker today? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. In a personal capacity or in the capacity as 22 a representative for Riley Stoker? 23 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 24 A. I don't understand your question. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (16 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 16 1 Q. Well, what I'm trying to find out, sir - 2 well, I'm going to ask it this way: I know 3 exactly how I'm going to get my answer. 4 Sir, tell me about the contents of the 5 conversations that you had with the lawyers 6 from Riley Stoker. 7 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, 8 privileged attorney/client communication. I 9 instruct you not to answer that question. 10 Q Sir, are you going to be paying the lawyers 11 here to represent you, or is it your 12 understanding that Riley Stoker is going to 13 pay them for you? 14 A I have no idea. 15 Q Have you signed a retainer agreement with 16 any of the lawyers here to represent you at 17 this deposition? 18 A No, I have not. 19 Q So would it be fair to say that you are here 20 as Riley Stoker for the purpose of this 21 deposition? 22 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 23 A There is no Riley Stoker today. 24 Q Well, I understand that, sir. What I'm G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (17 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 17 1 trying to get at is -- when you're giving 2 testimony here today, I'm trying to 3 determine are you here speaking on behalf of 4 Riley Stoker in terms of what it knew and 5 things it did in the past? 6 A Yes. 7 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 8 Q Okay. When you learned about asbestos9 causing mesothelioma in the 1970s, sir, what 10 did you do at Riley Stoker to communicate 11 that knowledge to others? 12 A That was not my job. 13 Q Sir, my question, though, is, when you 14 learned about asbestos-causing mesothelioma 15 in the 1970s, what did you do at Riley 16 Stoker to communicate that knowledge to 17 others? 18 A I didn't do anything. 19 Q And, sir, when you learned that asbestos 20 could cause lung cancer in the 1970s, what 21 did you do at Riley Stoker to communicate 22 that knowledge to others? 23 A I did not (sic). 24 Q Sir, do you believe that asbestos can cause G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (18 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 18 1 asbestosis? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And when did you learn that? 4 A. In the 1970s. 5 Q. And how is it that you learned in the 1970s 6 that exposure to asbestos can cause 7 asbestosis? 8 A. By reading newspapers, magazines, radio. 9 Q. In the past when you were asked that 10 question, sir, you had indicated that the 11 source of your knowledge was, in fact, the 12 OSHA regulations. Are you now expanding 13 that to include the press and radio and 14 things along those lines? 15 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. To 16 the extent you're going to cross-examine him 17 regarding prior testimony, I request that he 18 be given the opportunity to see it. In 19 addition, since the beginning of the 20 deposition you've been standing, and I would 21 request that you be seated for the purposes 22 of the deposition rather than standing. 23 (Pause.) 24 MR. ELLISTON: Rick, I'll also tell G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (19 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 19 1 you that I have a copy of that 1995 2 deposition, so if you want me to show him my 3 copy, I'm happy to do that to expedite 4 matters. 5 MR. NEMEROFF: Sure. I think it's 6 actually earlier than that. Can you give me 7 the end date and the beginning date? 8 (Pause.) 9 MR. NEMEROFF: Why don't you try to 10 find it. I'm going to move on to something 11 else. I'm going to withdraw my last 12 question and move on to something else. 13 And so the record is not so 14 misleading, I'm standing simply because my 15 knee on which I had surgery not too long ago 16 is particularly stiff from sitting on a 17 plane for seven hours yesterday waiting to 18 get up here, so I apologize if I appear to 19 be doing anything other than just trying to 20 keep it from locking up on me while I sit. 21 MR. ELLISTON: I'm happy for 22 another counsel to ask questions so you can 23 be seated while they question. 24 MR. NEMEROFF: Well, that's sweet G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1 _020602.txt (20 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 20 1 of you, Gary, and I know that comes from 2 your heart. 3 MR. ELLISTON: I knew you would 4 appreciate it. I just don't -- we're about 5 three feet apart here, and I just would 6 prefer that the witness not be having to 7 look up to counsel who is standing. But we 8 can proceed, and we'll address it as we go 9 along. 10 MR. NEMEROFF: You know, not being 11 very tall, I'm always happy when someone 12 has to look up at me, so I take every 13 advantage I can of the situation. But I 14 will do my best to remain seated or hunched. 15 BY MR. NEMEROFF: 16 Q. Sir, did anyone at Riley Stoker ever tell 17 you prior to 1970 that asbestos could cause 18 asbestosis -- exposure to asbestos could 19 cause asbestosis? 20 A. Not that I can recall. 21 Q. And if Riley Stoker had known prior to 1970 22 that asbestos -- withdraw that. 23 Do you consider asbestosis to be a 24 deadly disease? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1 _020602.txt (21 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 21 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And do you consider mesothelioma to be a 3 deadly disease? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And do you consider lung cancer to be a 6 deadly disease? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And if Riley Stoker had knowledge prior to 9 1970 that asbestos could cause the deadly 10 disease, asbestosis, is that something that 11 you would have liked for them to communicate 12 that to you? 13 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 14 A. I was not particularly concerned about 15 health issues. I worked in the engineering 16 of the department. My job was to design and 17 make drawings of steam-generating equipment. 18 Q. And you understood, sir, that from the time 19 you began working for Riley Stoker, which I 20 think was in what year, sir? 21 A. 1953. 22 Q. And you understand, sir, that from 1953 23 until, I think, by -- withdraw that. 24 When did Riley Stoker stop using or G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (22 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 22 1 specifying asbestos to be used with its 2 boilers? 3 A Following the OSHA regulations. 4 Q And what year would that be? 5 A That was in 1972, so shortly afterwards. 6 Q Okay. So from 1953 until 1972 did you have 7 an understanding that asbestos insulation 8 was used in connection with the boilers that 9 you were helping to design? 10 A No. 11 Q From 1953 to 1972 you had absolutely no idea 12 that asbestos was being used on the boilers 13 that you were designing? 14 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 15 Now you can answer. 16 A There were areas where asbestos was used. 17 Q So the answer to my question is, from 1953 18 to 1972 you did have an understanding that 19 asbestos insulation was used in connection 20 with the boilers that you were helping to 21 design? 22 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 23 Q Is that correct? 24 A In some instances, yes, like gaskets. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (23 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 23 1 Q. So from 1953 to 1972 you had an 2 understanding that asbestos insulation was 3 being used in connection with the boilers 4 that you were designing? 5 A. Not insulation, no. 6 Q. Do you make a distinction between gasket 7 material and packing material and insulation 8 material? 9 A. I most certainly do. 10 Q. Okay. So from 1953 to 1972 you had an 11 understanding that asbestos packing and 12 asbestos gaskets were being used in 13 connection with the boilers that you were 14 designing for Riley Stoker? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Sir, when you designed a boiler, did you 17 specify the use of insulation materials in 18 connection with that boiler? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And when you designed a boiler between 1953 21 and 1972 at Riley Stoker, did you specify 22 the use of insulation materials in 23 connection with that boiler? 24 A. Yes. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (24 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 24 1 Q. And you had no idea from 1953 to 1972 that 2 when you specified the use of insulation 3 materials in connection with a Riley Stoker 4 boiler, that those insulation materials 5 would be asbestos-containing? 6 A. No. 7 Q. What was your understanding of the makeup of 8 those insulation materials that you were 9 specifying to be used on Riley Stoker 10 boilers between 1953 and 1972? 11 A. We specified on the insulation that the 12 insulation was specified as high temperature 13 block insulation, intermediate temperature 14 block insulation and mineral wool. 15 Q. And the block insulation that you understood 16 was being used on the boilers that you 17 designed for Riley Stoker between 1953 and 18 1972, is it your understanding that that 19 block was referred to as calcium silicate? 20 A. No. There's a distinction between calcium 21 silicate and high temperature block 22 insulation. 23 Q. Okay. Tell me where the distinction is, in 24 your mind, between calcium silicate and high G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (25 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 25 1 temperature block insulation? 2 A. Calcium silicate insulation was used mostly 3 on piping. 4 Q. And high temperature block insulation? 5 A. It was used on the boiler surfaces. 6 Q. And is it your understanding that calcium 7 silicate pipe insulation was asbestos8 containing prior to 1972? 9 A. I can't be sure of that. 10 Q. You would agree with me, sir, that Riley 11 Stoker boilers had asbestos insulation on 12 them in the past; is that correct? 13 A. At this point in time I had come to realize 14 that there may be -- such insulation had 15 been used on the Riley boilers. 16 Q. So the answer to my question is that in the 17 past -- Riley Stoker boilers had asbestos 18 insulation on them in the past? That is a 19 correct statement? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And calcium silicate insulation would be a 22 type of asbestos-containing insulation used 23 on a Riley Stoker boiler; is that correct? 24 A. Yes. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (26 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 26 1 Q. So we can agree that in the past, 2 asbestos-containium (sic) -- try that one. 3 So that we can agree in the past, asbestos4 containing calcium silicate insulation was 5 used on Riley Stoker boilers? 6 A. Yes. 7 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 8 Q. The high temperature block insulation, what 9 is your understanding of the makeup of the 10 high temperature block insulation? 11 A. The high temperature block insulation, in my 12 mind, had a higher density than the mineral 13 wool. 14 Q. And do you know whether or not the high 15 temperature block insulation that Riley 16 Stoker had used in connection with the 17 boilers that you designed between 1953 and 18 1972 had asbestos in them? 19 A. At that time, no. 20 Q. Are you familiar with a product called 21 Eagle-Picher SuperTemp block? 22 A. I have heard of Eagle-Picher, but I'm not 23 familiar with the SuperTemp block. 24 Q. So if Riley Stoker was purchasing -- let me G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (27 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 27 1 withdraw that and set it up this way: I 2 want you to assume for me that Riley Stoker 3 bought Eagle-Picher's SuperTemp block for 4 use on its boilers. 5 A. I don't know that. 6 Q. You don't know that? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Assuming that they did and that that block 9 contained asbestos, that was something that 10 was never communicated to you? 11 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 12 A. I can't recall anybody coming to me and 13 telling me that we were using asbestos. We 14 used insulation. 15 Q. Besides asbestos insulation, sir, between 16 1953 and 1972 what other types of 17 non-asbestos insulation are you familiar 18 with that were used in connection with Riley 19 Stoker boilers? 20 A. We used two types of insulation. We used a 21 high temp -- or three types of insulation. 22 We used the high temperature block, the 23 intermediate temperature block and mineral 24 wool. Those were the three groups that were G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (28 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 28 1 used. 2 Q. And the -- was it your responsibility in 3 designing a boiler to specify a type of 4 insulation to be used on the boiler? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. One of the three groups that I mentioned. 8 Q. All right. Maybe that's where I was getting 9 a little confused. You, Harold Riddar, when 10 working for Riley Stoker and designing 11 boilers for them, would specify on your 12 designs to use either high temperature 13 block, intermediate temperature block or 14 mineral wool at various points on the 15 boiler; is that correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And you had no understanding as to what high 18 temperature block was made up of at the time 19 when you were specifying it to be used on 20 your boilers between 1953 and 1972 when you 21 were working for Riley Stoker? 22 A. It was not a concern of mine. The high 23 temperature block was employed at -- the 24 temperature that it required had temperature G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (29 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 29 1 block. 2 Q. And so I'm clear, sir, you had no 3 understanding as to what the intermediate 4 temperature block was made up of at the time 5 when you were specifying it to be used on 6 the Riley Stoker boilers between 1953 and 7 1972; is that correct? 8 A No, I did not. 9 Q And you had no understanding as to what the 10 mineral wool was made up of when you were 11 specifying it to be used on the boilers that 12 you were designing for Riley Stoker between 13 1953 and 1972? 14 A Well, the name pretty much tells you it's 15 mineral wool. 16 Q You don't know if there was anything else in 17 the mineral wool product in addition to 18 mineral wool? 19 A I have no idea. 20 Q What qualified you to design boilers for 21 Riley Stoker between 1953 and 1972? 22 A My educational background, I guess. 23 Q And what was that? 24 A I have an associate degree in mechanical G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (30 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 30 1 engineering from Worcester Junior College. 2 Q. And as part of getting an engineering 3 degree, did you have to understand the 4 properties and nature of the material that 5 you would be specifying for use in the 6 boilers that you were designing for Riley 7 Stoker? 8 A. Yes, to some extent. In pressure parts 9 design you had to have a good knowledge of 10 properties of steel. 11 Q. Did Riley Stoker have engineering standards 12 that specified certain types of products to 13 be used in connection with the manufacture 14 of its boilers? 15 A. It was generally specified in a proposal and 16 sometimes customers' specifications would 17 list the temperature range and their 18 required insulation thickness. 19 Q. Sir, have you ever seen a specific Riley 20 Stoker Corporation engineering standard for, 21 say, refractories, refractory products to be 22 used on boilers? 23 A. Not as such, not in detail. There were 24 standards in certain areas that would be G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1 _020602.txt (31 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 31 1 where refractory would be used. 2 Q. Was Riley Stoker Corporation in the habit, 3 to your knowledge, of ordering materials for 4 use on its boilers of which it didn't know 5 what those products were made up of? 6 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 7 A. I don't know what other people did or knew. 8 Q. Well, do you think it's good engineering 9 practice to specify the use of a material on 10 a boiler where you don't know what the 11 constituency of the product you're 12 specifying is? 13 A. Are you talking about the entire boiler, or 14 are you talking about a specific area? 15 Q. Do you think it's good engineering practice, 16 sir, to specify on your drawings for a 17 boiler something that you don't know what 18 the makeup of the material that you're 19 specifying is anywhere on the drawing? 20 A. I realize I shouldn't answer a question by a 21 question, but your question is too broad. 22 Can you narrow it down to where I can answer 23 it? 24 Q. Do you think it's good engineering practice G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (32 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 32 1 to specify in your drawings for a Riley 2 Stoker boiler insulation materials, be it 3 high temperature or intermediate temperature 4 block, where you don't know what it is that 5 you are actually specifying to be used on 6 your boiler? 7 A. I knew I specified insulation, either high 8 temperature block, intermediate temperature 9 block or mineral wool. 10 Q But you're telling me that despite making 11 such specifications, you had no idea about 12 whether or not those products contained 13 asbestos or not? 14 A At that time I did not know. 15 Q Well, looking back, do you have an 16 understanding that the materials -- the 17 insulation materials that you were 18 specifying, the high temperature block, 19 intermediate temperature block, and the 20 mineral wool, did, in fact, have asbestos 21 until 1972? 22 A Before 1972 I had no idea. 23 Q But my question is, looking back now, do you 24 have an understanding that the materials, G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (33 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 33 1 the insulation materials that you were 2 specifying for use on the Riley Stoker 3 boilers, the high temperature block, the 4 intermediate temperature block and the 5 mineral wool, did, in fact, have asbestos in 6 them prior to 1972? 7 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 8 A. You're asking a -- you're grouping them into 9 one group, all three of them. I think there 10 was a difference there. 11 Q Well, let me break it up. Looking back now, 12 do you have an understanding that the high 13 temperature block material that you 14 specified for use on Riley Stoker boilers 15 between 1953 and 1972 was, in fact, 16 asbestos-containing? 17 A Today I know that. 18 Q And looking back now, do you have an 19 understanding that the intermediate 20 temperature block that you specified for use 21 on Riley Stoker boilers between 1953 and 22 1972 was, in fact, asbestos-containing? 23 A I don't know to this date. 24 Q And do you have an understanding now that G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (34 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 34 1 the mineral wool that you specified for use 2 on Riley Stoker boilers between 1953 and 3 1972 was, in fact, asbestos-containing? 4 A I don't think it was. 5 Q Do you have any specific information one way 6 or the other as it pertains to mineral wool 7 prior to 1972? 8 A No. 9 Q Sir, did Riley Stoker ever use or specify 10 for use lightweight plastic refractories for 11 use on their boilers? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And was that something that you personally 14 specified for use on the boilers that you 15 were designing for Riley Stoker after 1953? 16 A We used it in very small quantities. 17 Q When you say "very small quantities," can 18 you give me an estimation of what you mean 19 by that? 20 A Well, it was used as a packing back at the 21 buckstays of the boiler, B-U-C-K-S-T-A-Y. 22 Q And when you say "small quantities," do you 23 mean small quantities per boiler or small 24 quantities -- G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (35 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:32 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 35 1 A Yes. 2 Q And do you have an understanding as to 3 whether or not that lightweight plastic 4 refractory product that you were specifying 5 for use was asbestos-containing or not? 6 A No, I did not. 7 Q Was Riley Stoker -- withdraw that. 8 You were in the engineering 9 department? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Was it engineering department practice to 12 recommend specific products by name brand 13 for use as part of a specification on the 14 boilers that you were designing? 15 A It was not Riley policy to do that. 16 Q It was not? 17 A No, for a good reason. 18 Q Why is that? 19 A Well, we had what we call the bidders' list 20 at Riley Stoker, or they had, not in the 21 engineering department, but there was such a 22 list, so if we stated the name brand on a 23 drawing, it had to be followed by "or 24 equal," which left it up to the person in G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (36 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 36 1 the department to get an equal product. 2 Q. Have you ever seen a Riley Stoker 3 engineering standard list for lightweight 4 plastic refractories that would be used on 5 the boilers per your specifications? 6 A. I can't recall that. 7 MR. NEMEROFF: What number am I up 8 to? 9 THE REPORTER: 5. 10 Q. I'm going to show you what I'm going to mark 11 as Riddar No. 5 and ask if you can identify 12 this for the record, please. 13 (Witness reviews document.) 14 A. As I stated before, I can only recall using 15 this in back of buckstays on a boiler. 16 Q. Can you just identify the document for us? 17 A. Yes. 18 MR. ELLISTON: (Indicating.) 19 Q. Okay. Your counsel's indicating something, 20 so I'm... 21 MR. ELLISTON: I just want him to 22 look at both pages. 23 MR. NEMEROFF: Okay. Off the 24 record. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (37 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 37 1 (Discussion off the record.) 2 Q. Okay. Can you just describe for me what 3 this is that I've marked as Riddar No. 5 in 4 this deposition? 5 A. Riley Stoker standard. 6 Q. Riley Stoker standard? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And on this am I correct, sir, that it 9 identifies the trade name and manufacturer 10 of a number of different lightweight plastic 11 refractories that - 12 A. If we specified, as I told you before, it 13 would have to be specified in the 14 engineering department as "or equal," so 15 those names that you see there were 16 obviously on the bidders' list, the 17 lightweight refractory. 18 Q. Sir, in looking at Riddar No. 5, can you 19 please identify for us or point out for us 20 where it says "or equal" anywhere on that 21 document? 22 A. Not on that standard. 23 Q. It's not on the standard? 24 A. No. It was a policy. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (38 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 38 1 Q. And is that policy written down someplace? 2 A. I can't recall. 3 Q. Have you ever seen it written down someplace 4 in the past? 5 A. I can't recall that. 6 Q. Sir, do you have an understanding as to 7 whether or not any of the lightweight 8 plastic refractories as specified for use by 9 the Riley Stoker Corporation engineering 10 department contained asbestos on this list? 11 A. I don't know. 12 Q. As an -- I'm sorry. 13 A. I don't see anything in here referring to 14 asbestos. 15 Q. Do you think it's a good engineering 16 practice for Riley Stoker to specify the use 17 of a particular product if they don't know 18 what that product is made up of? 19 A. It was an insulating material, and the 20 engineering question would be, would it do 21 the job? We did not go into chemical 22 analysis of any refractories, and I don't 23 think they were sold that way. 24 Q. As an engineer, sir, do you think it is good G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (39 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 39 1 practice to understand the nature and makeup 2 of the products that you were specifying to 3 be used on any machinery that you designed? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. But when it comes to knowing whether or not 6 the insulation products that you were 7 specifying for use on Riley Stoker boilers, 8 you did not have an understanding of the 9 nature and makeup of the products that you 10 were specifying to be used; isn't that true? 11 A. No, it's not. I knew that the insulation 12 that we specified did its job for which it 13 was intended. 14 Q. But you don't know -- withdraw that. 15 But you never did any either 16 investigation or make any inquiry as to what 17 the insulation materials that you were 18 specifying for use on Riley Stoker boilers 19 between 1953 and 1972, you never undertook 20 to learn what was in those insulation 21 materials? 22 A. I did not. 23 (Discussion off the record.) 24 G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1 _020602.txt (40 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 40 1 (Document marked as Exhibit 5 2 for identification.) 3 Q. And do you consider your actions in not 4 making any inquiry as to what the insulation 5 materials were that you were specifying for 6 use on Riley Stoker boilers between 1953 and 7 1972 to have been good engineering practices 8 at that time? 9 A. That was not my concern. My concern was 10 building a boiler, you know. I concern 11 myself -- you know, a boiler consists of 12 many, many components. There is maybe as 13 many as 600 drawings involved in building a 14 boiler. That doesn't necessarily involve 15 insulation alone. The boiler in general was 16 built to a safety factor of 4. You know, we 17 were talking about pressure parts like 18 drums, headers, tubes. 19 Q. My question, sir, was, do you consider your 20 actions in not making any inquiry into what 21 the insulation materials that you were 22 specifying were made up of when you were 23 drawing boilers and saying use insulation 24 materials between 1953 and 1972, do you G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1 _020602.txt (41 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 41 1 think those actions were good engineering 2 practices? 3 A. I think the actions were appropriate. 4 Q. And if the materials that you were 5 specifying for use -- withdraw that. 6 Do you have an understanding now, 7 looking back, that the materials that you 8 were specifying for use that had asbestos9 containing (sic) were, in fact, dangerous to 10 users or people around the products? 11 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 12 A. Today we realize that. 13 Q. If you had known that in the 1950s, would 14 you have done something different in your 15 specifications? 16 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 17 A. Personally I probably perhaps would have 18 told someone if it was not general 19 knowledge. 20 Q. And you would agree with me, sir, that in 21 the 19 -- you believe in the 1950s, sir, 22 that it was general knowledge that asbestos 23 was harmful? 24 A. I don't believe that. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (42 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 42 1 Q. So in the 1950s, unless told by somebody 2 with knowledge of the dangers of asbestos, 3 an ordinary person wouldn't have any reason 4 to know that? 5 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 6 A. There was no way of knowing that asbestos 7 was harmful to your health, not at that 8 time. 9 Q. Why do you say that? 10 A. I'd never seen it written anywhere, heard of 11 it. How would I know? 12 Q. And you would agree with me, sir, that if a 13 company knew that asbestos could be harmful 14 to a person working with it and then let 15 someone be exposed to it without telling 16 them, that would be a bad thing to do? 17 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 18 A. I can't answer that. That's a broad 19 question. 20 Q. Well, if -- specifically do you believe, 21 sir, that if Riley Stoker knew that asbestos 22 could be harmful to someone's health, never 23 told anyone what they knew and allowed 24 people to be exposed to asbestos, that that G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (43 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 43 1 is a pretty bad thing to do? 2 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 3 A. I don't believe that Riley Stoker knew. 4 Riley Stoker is very safety-conscious. 5 Q. And if Riley Stoker knew about the dangers 6 of asbestos, you would have expected them to 7 tell you and tell others? 8 A. I would suppose they would have. That's my 9 personal opinion. 10 Q. And prior to 1972 you, Harold Riddar, had no 11 personal knowledge from Riley Stoker about 12 the dangers of asbestos; is that correct? 13 A. No, I did not. 14 Q. If Riley Stoker, in fact, did have knowledge 15 prior to 1972 and did not share it with you, 16 would you consider that to be the right 17 thing to do or the wrong thing to do? 18 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 19 A. I can't speak for anybody else. I can speak 20 only for myself. 21 Q. I only want to know what you, Harold Riddar, 22 believed if Riley Stoker had knowledge about 23 asbestos causing harm and injury and disease 24 to people before 1972 and they did not tell G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (44 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 44 1 you or tell anyone, would you consider that 2 to be a bad thing to do? 3 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Sir, I want to show you what I'm going to 6 mark as Plaintiff -- excuse me, as Riddar 7 No. 6. 8 (Document marked as Exhibit 6 9 for identification.) 10 Q. And I'm going to ask you if you can take a 11 look at Riddar No. 6. 12 (Witness reviews document.) 13 Q. Have you had a chance to look at that, sir? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And am I correct that -16 MR. ELLISTON: Excuse me. Before 17 you continue, may I take a second to look at 18 it? 19 MR. NEMEROFF: Sure. 20 (Mr. Elliston reviews document.) 21 MR. ELLISTON: Okay. 22 Q. Sir, referring to Riddar No. 6 -- why don't 23 you hold onto it -- what is your 24 understanding of what Riddar No. 6 is? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (45 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 45 1 A It's a lawsuit against Riley Stoker. 2 Q And do you have an understanding of the date 3 of that lawsuit against Riley Stoker? 4 A It was back in the 1950s, I believe. 5 Q Do you see in the middle of the first page 6 where it says 1958? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And I'm going to refer to the bottom pages, 9 in that little -- can you see that little 10 box down there? Is that clear for you to 11 see? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Okay. You understand that this is a claim 14 of Ernest Moreno? 15 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 16 Q It's probably at the top of the page. 17 A Yes. It's kind of hard to read, but, with a 18 little bit of imagination I guess we can get 19 that out of it. 20 Q Well, I think Mr. -- if you want to verify 21 that Mr. Moreno's name appears on other 22 pages of that... 23 A All right. I believe you. 24 Q Okay. And this claim by Mr. Moreno in 1948, G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (46 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 46 1 can you look at Page, what is marked 31. 2 A. I don't see any... 3 Q. There's 36, yeah, I'm looking down here, 36, 4 34. I'll just help you out. Page 30. 5 A. 31. 6 Q. Okay. And at the top there's indication 7 with a stamp that says "Riley Stoker 8 Corporation" in 1948? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And it's got Mr. Moreno's name and Riley 11 Stoker's name? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. In fact, it has Mr. Moreno, applicant, 14 versus other companies, including Riley 15 Stoker, as defendant? 16 A. Uh-huh. 17 Q. Is that correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And it says here "Decision After Rehearing." 20 Did I read that correctly? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And on the following page -- am I right 23 where I'm supposed to be? Is that it? 24 Could you please read into the record G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (47 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 47 1 Paragraph 1, which is highlighted. 2 A. "Earnest R. Moreno, born December 12, 1903, 3 while employed as an asbestos worker by 4 various employees in the State of California 5 for periods of time hereinafter set forth, 6 sustained injury arising out of an occurring 7 in the course of employments by reason of 8 his occupational activities, consisting of 9 exposure to asbestos dusts, the accumulated 10 effects of each day's exposure caused an 11 industrial asbestosis, resulting in 12 temporary total disability on December 8, 13 1944. For said temporary total disability, 14 the applicant is entitled to compensation, 15 exclusive of the waiting period for seven 16 days, based on earnings in excess of 17 maximum." 18 Q. Sir, based upon your reading of this 19 document from 1948, did Riley Stoker ever 20 tell you that in 1948 they had been named as 21 a defendant in a case where an individual 22 was found to have total or permanent 23 disability from exposure to asbestos dust? 24 A. No, they did not. I was not employed at G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1 _020602.txt (48 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 48 1 Riley Stoker at this time. 2 Q. And after you became employed in 1953, at 3 any point between 1953 and the time that 4 you, yourself, learned about the dangers of 5 asbestos in the 1970s, did Riley Stoker ever 6 tell you what they knew back in 1948 about 7 exposures to asbestos causing total or 8 permanent disability from exposure to 9 asbestos dust? 10 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 11 A. No. 12 Q. Sir, do you believe, knowing what you -13 withdraw that. 14 Sir, looking back and knowing that you 15 were specifying products that contained 16 asbestos while employed by Riley Stoker and 17 now having seen this document from 1948, 18 that Riley Stoker knew that exposing 19 individuals to asbestos could cause 20 permanent or total disability, do you 21 believe that it was reasonable for a company 22 to not tell anyone about the dangers of 23 asbestos when they were specifying asbestos 24 products to be used? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1 _020602.txt (49 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 49 1 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 2 A I can't speak for anybody else. 3 Q I want your personal opinion, sir. 4 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 5 A Many questions go through my mind. You 6 know, not having the background here, I 7 don't know what the case -- was Riley Stoker 8 in the place where he worked? I don't know. 9 Was Riley Stoker the cause of all this? 10 Q Sir, on the strength of that paragraph alone 11 which you've read, what do you understand 12 about the nature of being exposed to 13 asbestos causing disease? 14 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 15 A Well, obviously he got sick. 16 Q From breathing in asbestos? 17 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 18 A I don't know. 19 Q Sir, look at that paragraph and tell me, 20 what was the final decision as to the cause 21 of Mr. Moreno's disease? 22 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 23 A Obviously somebody decided that, yes, he got 24 sick. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (50 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 50 1 Q. And what was the cause? 2 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 3 A. Breathing dust. 4 Q. What kind of dust? 5 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 6 Q. Let me ask it this way, Mr. Riddar: Is 7 there some confusion in that paragraph that 8 you are left with some impression that 9 asbestos didn't cause Mr. Moreno's 10 asbestosis? 11 A. I have no way of knowing. 12 Q. And I'm asking you, based solely upon that 13 document, on that paragraph which you have 14 looked at, what is your understanding of Mr. 15 Moreno's injury and cause? 16 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 17 Rick, I've just made legal objections, which 18 you've shown him a document. He's read the 19 paragraph. He's here to testify about his 20 knowledge. He can tell you what this 21 document says, but I object to the 22 continuing badgering of the witness about 23 his understanding and his views about what 24 happened in a Workers' Comp claim back in G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (51 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 51 1 the 1940s. He can tell you what the 2 document says and that's all. All of this 3 is objectionable. 4 Go ahead if you can remember the 5 question. 6 MR. NEMEROFF: And, Gary, we've 7 been -- I sat down despite my best attempts 8 not to, and I guess I'll let the record 9 reflect your barking of "Objection, form" as 10 a signal to the witness is as clear as the 11 nose on my face, as was that last objection 12 as to what this witness is going to do. And 13 I'm asking him his understanding of the 14 cause and effect on this document that Riley 15 Stoker had in its possession. 16 MR. ELLISTON: And since you want 17 to argue that point, I think the record is 18 clear that I have lived by the rules of 19 stating an objection to form when you ask 20 questions, and it's been perfectly 21 appropriate, and I think any Court can look 22 at that. But for you to show this witness a 23 document, have him read it, which is fine, 24 but then for you to ask him medical G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1 _020602.txt (52 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 52 1 questions and ask him factual and opinion 2 questions about something that happened in 3 the 1940s is inappropriate. And I've tried 4 to make those observations, but you're 5 continuing to try to get admissions out of 6 him about a case that there's been no 7 showing he knows anything about. So you've 8 made your speech, I've made my speech, go 9 right ahead. 10 BY MR. NEMEROFF: 11 Q. Mr. Riddar, when you look at that paragraph, 12 when you read that paragraph, what 13 conclusions do you, Harold Riddar, draw from 14 that paragraph? 15 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 16 Q. Do you understand what I'm saying? I mean, 17 here's the thing: I give you that document. 18 I said read that paragraph. Do you think 19 that Mr. Moreno tripped down a flight of 20 stairs? Do you think that aliens kidnapped 21 him? What do you get from that paragraph? 22 A. From the document he obviously had 23 asbestosis. 24 MR. NEMEROFF: I want to mark this G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1 _020602.txt (53 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 53 1 as No. 7 and ask you to take a look at that. 2 (Document marked as Exhibit 7 3 for identification.) 4 (Witness reviews document.) 5 (Discussion off the record.) 6 Q. Have you had a chance to look at that, sir? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And Riddar No. 7, what is your understanding 9 of what Exhibit Riddar No. 7 is? 10 A. It's another case of asbestosis, Workmen's 11 Compensation claim. 12 Q. Against who? 13 A. Against Riley Stoker. 14 Q. And under the "Nature of disability" on the 15 second page of that document, what was the 16 nature of the claim? 17 A. I'm having problems pronouncing the first -18 Q. Pneumoconiosis? 19 A. Right, asbestosis. 20 Q. And what is the date of this claim against 21 Riley Stoker for asbestosis? 22 A. Mailed January 22nd, 1957 is the only 23 date -- oh, received by Riley Stoker January 24 23rd, 1957. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (54 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 54 1 Q Now, the stamp that's on top of that first 2 page where you said it's received in 1957, 3 is that a stamp you're familiar with from 4 your time at Riley Stoker? 5 A That says "Riley Stoker" right there 6 (indicating). 7 Q So this document, Riddar No. 7, as well as 8 Riddar No. 6, which has a similar stamp, you 9 understand that these were received by Riley 10 Stoker? 11 A Yes, I do. 12 Q And 1957 is four years after you began work 13 with Riley Stoker? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Did anyone at Riley Stoker tell you or 16 anyone, to your knowledge, that a claim for 17 asbestosis had been made against the company 18 in 1957? 19 A I don't remember being told. 20 Q If you had been told, that would have 21 predated your 1972 knowledge by about 14 22 years? 23 A Yeah, but let me say this: At that time I 24 was -- between 1957 I was a draftsman, a G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (55 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 55 1 lower grade draftsman. I was inexperienced, 2 and I was certainly not concerning myself 3 with Workmen's Compensation, so I had no way 4 of knowing. 5 Q. So in 1957, having just with been with the 6 company for a couple of years, you were 7 relying upon your managers and supervisors 8 to tell you the things that you would need 9 to know about health, safety and other 10 things; would that be a fair statement? 11 A. At that time I didn't see any reason for 12 being told anything except teach me how to 13 make a drawing. 14 Q. And if there was anything to know about 15 dangerous materials and the use of your 16 drawings or dangerous products that would be 17 specified, you would have relied upon your 18 supervisors and managers and people above 19 you to tell you what you needed to know at 20 that time? Would that be a fair statement? 21 A. Yes, but there was no need for me to know 22 anything about issues like that at the time. 23 Q. But so we're clear, if you were to learn 24 about the dangers of any of the materials G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1 _020602.txt (56 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 56 1 that you were specifying, that would have 2 come from your higher-ups? 3 A. Yes, it would have. 4 Q. And in 1957 nobody from Riley Stoker told 5 you about the dangers of asbestos exposure? 6 A. Not that I can recall. 7 Q. And I want to show you what I'm going to 8 mark as Riddar No. 8 and ask you to take a 9 look at this document. 10 (Document marked as Exhibit 8 11 for identification.) 12 (Witness reviews document.) 13 Q. Can you identify for us what I've marked as 14 Riddar No. 8? 15 A. Yes. Accident control program, Lewis 16 Munger. 17 Q. And who is it to, and who is it from, if you 18 can tell? 19 A. It is to Michigan Mutual Liability Insurance 20 Company signed by P.A. Michaelian, safety 21 supervisor. 22 Q. Safety supervisor where? 23 A. Riley Stoker. 24 Q. And they're discussing the claim of Mr. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (57 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 57 1 Munger? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And do they discuss the asbestosis claim of 4 Mr. Munger? 5 A. Maybe I missed it here. I don't see it 6 here. 7 Q. Okay. Sir, after 1957 did Riley Stoker ever 8 issue any bulletin or memorandum or any 9 writing whatsoever informing people at Riley 10 Stoker that exposure to asbestos could cause 11 asbestosis? 12 A. I can't recall seeing any, but there may 13 have been other people that I'm not aware 14 of. I can't -- I speak only for myself. 15 Q. So after either the claim of Mr. Moreno or 16 Mr. Munger, Riley Stoker, to your knowledge, 17 never stopped or prohibited the use of 18 asbestos-containing materials in its 19 boilers? 20 A. Here again I can only speak for myself. I 21 don't know what went on within the company. 22 On my level I had no knowledge of any 23 asbestos claims. 24 Q. Well, my question is this: After either G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (58 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 58 1 claim -- why don't we just do after 1957, 2 did Riley Stoker, to your knowledge -- let 3 me withdraw that. 4 After 1957, to your knowledge, did 5 Riley Stoker ever prohibit the use of 6 asbestos on any of its boilers? 7 A. Not that I know of. 8 Q. After 1957 did Riley Stoker ever issue any 9 warning along with its boilers about the 10 dangers of asbestos? 11 A. I don't know. 12 Q. And, to your knowledge, sir, after 1957 did 13 Riley Stoker take any steps to test any of 14 the insulation materials it was using? 15 A. I don't know. 16 MR. NEMEROFF: Here, can I have 17 that for one second? 18 MR. ELLISTON: Oh, I'm sorry. 19 (Hands document to Mr. Nemeroff.) 20 (Pause.) 21 Q. Sir, do you have an understanding that 22 someone who works with insulation is 23 oftentimes referred to as either an 24 insulator or an asbestos worker or a lagger? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (59 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 59 1 Have you heard those terms? 2 A. Yes, I've referred to those terms, but I - 3 may I -4 Q. Please explain. 5 A. A lagger is not an insulator, he's a sheet 6 metal worker. 7 Q. Okay. Have you ever heard of asbestos 8 insulation referred to as lagging? 9 A. No. 10 Q. If I refer to an insulation worker as an 11 asbestos worker or if I said asbestos worker 12 as an insulation worker, would you 13 understand that those two terms are 14 interchangeable? 15 A. I would suppose so. 16 Q. So if a -- between 1953 and 1972 did you 17 have an understanding that insulation 18 workers worked with asbestos products? 19 A. No. I had the understanding that they 20 worked with insulation. 21 Q. Between 1953 and 1972 did you have an 22 understanding that asbestos workers worked 23 with insulation materials? 24 A. Yes. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (60 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 60 1 Q. So in the claim of Mr. Moreno which 2 discusses that -- in that paragraph that I 3 think it says he was an asbestos worker, 4 second line - 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. -- your understanding during the time that 7 you were employed by Riley Stoker, an 8 asbestos worker would be someone who worked 9 with insulation materials? 10 A. Yes, I would suppose so. 11 Q. Sir, has Riley Stoker ever consulted with 12 you when answering interrogatories served on 13 them by plaintiffs in asbestos litigation? 14 A. No. 15 MR. NEMEROFF: Sir, we've been 16 going for a while. Do you want to take a 17 break? 18 THE WITNESS: Sure. 19 (Recess taken.) 20 Q. Mr. Riddar, prior to today have you ever 21 seen the asbestosis claim of Mr. Moreno from 22 1948 against Riley Stoker? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Prior to today have you ever seen the claim G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (61 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 61 1 of Mr. Munger in 1957 against Riley Stoker 2 for his asbestosis? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Sir, I want to show you the -- going back to 5 Riddar No. 6, the claim of Mr. Moreno from 6 1948, and I want to ask you to look at this 7 paragraph under "Award," and if you could 8 just read this to yourself, the highlighted 9 portion, I want to ask you a question about 10 that, where it starts off with "It is 11 ordered." 12 (Witness reviews document.) 13 Q. Have you had a chance to look at that 14 paragraph? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. And if you could read it into the 17 record, please, under "It is ordered." 18 A. "It is ordered that Leko & Bosnyak; Great 19 American Indemnity Company, a corporation; 20 Tom Gogo and Steve Rodas, individuals, doing 21 business as Gogo & Rodas; Associated 22 Indemnity Corporation, a corporation; Major 23 E.R.K. Kaite, an individual doing business 24 as New Deal Manganese Mine; California G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (62 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 62 1 Compensation Insurance Company, a 2 corporation; Rock Wool Insulation Company, a 3 corporation; (Coast Insulating Corporation); 4 Aetna Casualty & Surety Company, a 5 corporation; L.R. Peck," I believe it is, 6 "an individual; Manganese Incorporated, a 7 corporation; and Industrial Indemnity 8 Company, a corporation, be and they are 9 hereby dismissed and discharged herefrom." 10 Q Do you see Riley Stoker's name on that list 11 of companies dismissed from Mr. Moreno's 12 asbestosis claim? 13 A No, I don't. 14 Q Would you be able to explain to us or to a 15 jury why it is that Riley Stoker swore under 16 oath that the suit was dismissed as to Riley 17 Stoker? 18 A I don't know why. 19 Q If Riley Stoker swore under oath that the 20 suit was dismissed as to them with respect 21 to Mr. Moreno's claim for asbestos, that 22 wouldn't be true, would it, based upon what 23 you've read? 24 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (63 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 63 1 A Would you repeat that? I didn't quite 2 understand your question. 3 Q Sure. If Riley Stoker -- if someone for 4 Riley Stoker swore under oath that Mr. 5 Moreno's claim for asbestosis was dismissed 6 as to Riley Stoker, that wouldn't be true 7 based upon what you read, would it? 8 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 9 A I have no idea what anybody swore at Riley 10 Stoker. I can't really answer that. 11 (Pause.) 12 Q Do you know James S. Brantl, B-R-A-N-T-L? 13 A Yes, I do. 14 Q And who is he? 15 A He's the attorney for Babcock Borsig Power. 16 Q Who? I'm sorry. 17 A Babcock Borsig Power. 18 Q And who are they? 19 A The present owner of the former Riley 20 Stoker. 21 Q Mr. Riddar, when were you employed by Riley 22 Stoker, from when to when? 23 A 1953 until 1989. 24 Q And when did you enter into a contractual G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (64 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 64 1 arrangement with Riley Stoker to do 2 additional work for them like you're doing 3 today? 4 A. Shortly after I retired. 5 Q. And do you get paid for your time? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What do you get paid? 8 A. What do I get paid? 9 Q. Yes, sir. 10 A. At the present time I get $75 an hour. 11 Q. Have you thought about asking for a raise 12 after I'm done? 13 A. I think I better. 14 Q. Are you guaranteed an annual amount from 15 Riley Stoker? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Do you have any stock options or any stocks 18 at all with respect to Riley Stoker, its 19 parent or predecessor companies? 20 A. No, I don't. 21 Q. Would you consider yourself to have any 22 financial interest whatsoever in Riley 23 Stoker? 24 A. No, I don't. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (65 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 65 1 Q. Riley Stoker doesn't exist today anymore? 2 A. No. 3 Q. What exists today in its place? 4 A. Babcock Borsig Power. 5 Q. And for how long have they existed in place 6 of Riley Stoker? 7 A. I believe they came into the picture in the 8 year 2000. 9 Q. And what is your understanding of what 10 happened in the year 2000 that they came 11 into the picture? 12 A. They either merged or bought Deutche 13 Babcock -- Deutche Babcock Power. 14 Q. Would you be the person with the most 15 knowledge about the financial transaction 16 that took place? 17 A. No, I wouldn't. 18 Q. I'll spare you, then, asking too many 19 questions about that. 20 A. Thank you. 21 Q. Who would be the person -- if I wanted to 22 know the most about that transaction, who 23 would I talk to? 24 A. I don't know. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (66 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 66 1 Q. If you wanted to talk to somebody, who would 2 you call? 3 A. I have no reason to talk to anybody. 4 Q. Okay. Let's say Riley Stoker owed you a 5 whole lot of money and you had to find out 6 how to get it and you had to call somebody 7 to find out what happened in that 8 transaction. Who would you call? 9 A. Jim Brantl. He's the legal man. 10 Q. If I thought he would give testimony, I 11 would ask him questions. 12 Mr. Riddar, having looked at the 13 asbestosis claim by Mr. Moreno against Riley 14 Stoker in 1948 and having looked at the 15 asbestosis claim of Mr. Munger in 1957, 16 would you consider those two claims to be 17 notice that breathing in asbestos dust can 18 cause asbestosis? 19 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 20 A. I'm not that familiar with the claim. I see 21 only what I read. 22 Q. Solely upon -- and, again, only based upon 23 the documents I've shown you, based upon 24 those two documents, would you from those G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (67 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 67 1 documents have an understanding that 2 breathing in asbestos dust can cause 3 asbestosis, at least by 19 -- or at the 4 latest by 1957 with Mr. Munger's claim? 5 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 6 A. That is what the document shows us. 7 Q. So if Riley Stoker stated that it became 8 aware of the association between asbestos 9 exposure and asbestosis after 1972, in light 10 of these two claims, would you consider that 11 statement to be false? 12 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 13 A. No. 14 Q. How would you reconcile not knowing about 15 asbestos causing asbestosis until 1972 with 16 the claim from 1948 and the claim from 1957? 17 A. I was unaware of these documents, and I'm 18 sure that there were a lot of people that 19 were in the same boat in the engineering 20 department. 21 Q. Based on reading those two documents, if 22 asked as to the disease asbestosis, state 23 the date on which Riley Stoker first learned 24 that such disease was caused by inhalation G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (68 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 68 1 of asbestos fibers, what would you say if I 2 asked you that question? 3 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 4 A. I wouldn't know what to say. 5 Q. Would you say 1947 because of Mr. Moreno's 6 claim? 7 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 8 A. Would you expand on that a little bit? 9 Q. Sure. 10 A. I'm not sure if I -11 Q. I want you to assume that -- I want you to 12 assume that you've read these documents - 13 well, not assume. Withdraw that. 14 You've read the two claims that I put 15 in front of you from 1948 and 1957 for 16 asbestosis claims against Riley Stoker; is 17 that right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. If Riley Stoker, whoever at Riley 20 Stoker, the corporation, the entity Riley 21 Stoker, was asked as to the disease 22 asbestosis, state the date on which Riley 23 Stoker first learned that such disease was 24 caused by inhalation of asbestos fibers by a G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (69 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 69 1 human, when would you tell Riley Stoker - 2 what date would you tell them to put down, 3 in light of these documents and what you 4 know? 5 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 6 A. In light of the documents, we have to go 7 with the first document. 8 Q. Which is when? 9 A. 1948, was it? 10 Q. 1948; is that correct? 11 A. That's what it says. 12 Q. So you would tell Riley Stoker that they 13 should put down 1948 as the date on which 14 they first learned that asbestos can cause 15 asbestosis in humans - 16 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 17 Q. -- based upon your reading of the documents? 18 MR. ELLISTON: Same objection, 19 form. 20 A. I wouldn't consider it my responsibility to 21 tell Riley Stoker. Obviously there was 22 other people above me that had to handle 23 that. 24 Q. You understand, sir, that you are here as G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (70 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 70 1 Riley Stoker's corporate designee? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. So I'm asking you, since you -- for my 4 purposes and for the purposes of all the 5 folks I represent, you are Riley Stoker. Do 6 you understand that? 7 MR. ELLISTON: I need to object to 8 form. He's designated on certain subjects. 9 Go ahead. 10 Q. Well, maybe we could do this, then: I'm 11 going to come back to this. 12 (Discussion off the record.) 13 Q. Mr. Riddar, what is your understanding as to 14 why you are here at this deposition today? 15 A. To take a deposition concerning the use of 16 asbestos. 17 Q. Okay. So your understanding is that you are 18 the person with knowledge about asbestos and 19 its use for Riley Stoker? 20 A. Some knowledge. 21 Q. Well, with that understanding in place, 22 based upon the documents that I've put in 23 front of you, would you agree with me that 24 you would tell Riley Stoker that the date G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (71 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 71 1 that Riley Stoker should put down when 2 asked, when did you learn asbestosis could 3 be caused by inhalation of asbestos fibers 4 would be 1948, the date of the first 5 document I showed you? 6 A. Yes. 7 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 8 A Yes. 9 Q Prior to 1972 -- or withdraw that. 10 At any point in time did Riley Stoker 11 ever warn its employees that were applying 12 asbestos insulation in the plants where they 13 were manufacturing boiler parts about the 14 potential health hazards of asbestos 15 insulation? 16 A I don't know. 17 Q Do you believe you have ever been exposed to 18 asbestos while employed by Riley Stoker? 19 A Not that I know of. 20 Q Riley Stoker supplied a service manual after 21 the sale of its boilers -- or along with the 22 sale of its boilers? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And do those service manuals still exist? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (72 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 72 1 A. I believe they do. 2 Q. For each boiler? 3 A. I can't attest to that. I don't know, but 4 there is -- there used to be a file. I have 5 not looked at it lately. 6 Q. And in a service manual would it talk about 7 replacement parts and things along those 8 lines? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And would it designate specific products 11 like we looked at on the engineering 12 standard for lightweight plastic 13 refractories, or would it be general? 14 A. I don't know. I can't be sure of that. I 15 haven't looked at any of those documents for 16 a long, long time. 17 Q. Where would those service manuals, if they 18 exist, be located? 19 A. They would be in the Worcester -- at one 20 time they were on the third floor in the - 21 third or fourth floor in the building that 22 we were in. Right now I don't know where 23 they are. 24 Q. To your knowledge, did a service manual at G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (73 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 73 1 any point in time ever discuss the health 2 hazards of asbestos as known by Riley 3 Stoker? 4 A. I don't know. 5 Q. After 1972 when you and Riley -- well, let 6 me rephrase that. 7 Did you do anything different after 8 you first learned about the dangers of 9 asbestos with regards to specifying 10 insulation materials? 11 A. We specified it on -- our drawings that were 12 made in the engineering department were 13 specified the same way. 14 Q. So there were no changes? 15 A. What do you mean by "changes"? 16 Q. Well, you told me earlier that you learned 17 about the dangers of -- you personally 18 learned about the dangers of asbestos in the 19 1971/72 era right around that time from 20 OSHA. And I want to know did you, Harold 21 Riddar, do anything different with respect 22 to the specifications that you were drawing 23 for insulation materials on boilers? 24 A. The insulation was specified in the same G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (74 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 74 1 manner, high temperature block, 2 intermediate, mineral wool. 3 Q. When did you come to learn or understand 4 that high temperature block had asbestos in 5 it? 6 A. Shortly after the OSHA regulations. 7 Q. Okay. So after you learned that the 8 materials that you were specifying for use 9 on the Riley Stoker boilers had asbestos in 10 it, did you do anything different? 11 A. Well, I personally didn't do anything 12 different. 13 Q. Did Riley Stoker as a corporation do 14 anything different after you learned that 15 asbestos was in the block material you were 16 specifying? 17 A. As I recall, on our purchase orders on any 18 material that was bought following that, 19 there was a statement attached to the 20 purchase order that the material was to 21 contain no asbestos whatsoever. 22 Q. And that was on the purchase orders that 23 Riley Stoker sent out to its vendors? 24 A. Yes. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (75 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 75 1 Q. And when did you say that -- when did that 2 start to take place? 3 A. I don't have an exact date, but I remember 4 seeing it. 5 Q. It was in the 1970s? 6 A. Yes, I believe so. I don't have an exact 7 date for you. 8 Q. Did Riley Stoker have a research department? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. From 1953 to 1972? 11 A. No. 12 Q. When? 13 A. 1975. 14 Q. So prior to 1975 there was no research and 15 development department at Riley Stoker? 16 A. Not that I know of. 17 Q. Prior to 1972 had Riley Stoker done any 18 studies on the ability for asbestos dust to 19 be released from the asbestos-containing 20 gasket material that it was using? 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. Prior to 1972 did Riley Stoker ever 23 undertake to do any tests on the asbestos24 containing packing material that it G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (76 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 76 1 specified in use? 2 A. I don't know. 3 Q. Prior to 1972 did Riley Stoker ever test any 4 of the insulation material that you were 5 specifying for use on the Riley Stoker 6 boilers? 7 A. Not that I know of. 8 Q. Are you aware, sir, that Riley Stoker 9 advertised in a variety of magazines and 10 trade publications for its boilers? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. I believe Power was one of them? 13 A. Yes. 14 (Discussion off the record.) 15 Q. And another one was Combustion Magazine? 16 Are you familiar with that? 17 A. I'm not familiar with that. 18 Q. Did you ever read anything in Power Magazine 19 about asbestos diseases or dust diseases in 20 general? 21 A. Not that I can recall. 22 Q. Do you know who Dr. Irving Selikoff was? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Can you say, sir, that Riley Stoker ever G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (77 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 77 1 received or read or relied upon an article 2 entitled "Report on effects of asbestos dust 3 on the lung and dust suppression in the 4 asbestos industry" by Merrewether and Price? 5 A I have no knowledge of that. 6 Q Can you say, sir, that Riley Stoker ever 7 received, read or relied upon an article 8 entitled "The occurrence of pulmonary 9 fibrosis and other pulmonary afflictions in 10 asbestos workers" by Merrewether in 1930? 11 A I don't know. 12 Q Are you able to say, sir, whether or not 13 Riley Stoker ever received, read or relied 14 upon U.S. Public Health Bulletin No. 241 15 entitled "A study of asbestosis in the 16 asbestos textile industry from 1938." 17 A I don't know. I've never heard of it. 18 Q Are you able to tell us, sir, whether or not 19 Riley Stoker ever read, received or relied 20 upon a 1946 article entitled "Health survey 21 of pipe covering operations in constructing 22 naval vessels" from The Journal of 23 Industrial Hygiene and Toxicology by 24 Fleischer and Drinker? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (78 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 78 1 A I don't know anything about it. 2 Q Are you able to say, sir, whether or not 3 Riley Stoker ever received, read or relied 4 upon a 1955 publication entitled "Mortality 5 from lung cancer in asbestos workers" by Sir 6 Richard Doll? 7 A I'm not able to comment on it. 8 Q Are you able to say, sir, that Riley Stoker 9 ever received, read or relied upon a 10 publication entitled "Diffuse pleural 11 mesothelioma and asbestos exposure in a 12 northwestern Cape province" by Dr. Wagner, 13 W-A-G-N-E-R, and others from 1960? 14 A I can't comment on that. 15 Q Sir, are you able to tell this jury whether 16 or not Riley Stoker ever received, read or 17 relied upon a publication from 1963 entitled 18 "The occurrence of asbestosis among 19 insulation workers in the United States" by 20 Dr. Selikoff? 21 A I'm not able to comment on that. 22 Q Are you able to tell us, Mr. Riddar, whether 23 or not Riley Stoker ever received, read or 24 relied upon an article entitled "Occurrence G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (79 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 79 1 of asbestosis among insulation workers in 2 the U.S." from 19 -- a 1965 article by Dr. 3 Selikoff? 4 A. I'm not able to comment on that. 5 Q. Do you know if anyone from Riley Stoker 6 attended a 1964 conference entitled "The 7 biological effects of asbestos" held in New 8 York City? 9 A. I have no knowledge of that. 10 Q. Did Riley Stoker ever have a medical 11 department? 12 A. Not to my knowledge. 13 Q. Did Riley Stoker ever have a company doctor? 14 A. Not that I know of. 15 Q. How about an infirmary? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Why did you read the OSHA requirements in 18 the 1970s concerning asbestos exposure, or 19 asbestos diseases? 20 A. The reason that led me to the OSHA 21 regulations, at the time we were working on 22 a breeching section of the boiler. We 23 needed an access, an access door. It was a 24 big section to reach the bottom, you needed G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (80 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 80 1 a ladder to get in there, and my concern 2 was, was it safe to put a ladder inside a 3 gas duct that was exposed to corrosion? And 4 in looking for some guidance, since we had 5 none that I know of, I got ahold of the OSHA 6 regulations, and at that time I stumbled on 7 the asbestos questions. 8 Q. So your knowledge of the asbestos 9 regulations by OSHA came about as a result 10 of accidentally stumbling upon it in search 11 of an answer to a question about a ladder? 12 A. Yes, you could say that. 13 Q. When you read the OSHA regulations 14 pertaining to asbestos, what did you do 15 next? 16 A. I went back to my ladder. 17 Q. Did you tell anybody what you had read about 18 asbestos in the OSHA regulations? 19 A. I can't recall. As I recall, what I read at 20 that time, OSHA regulations did not say you 21 can't use asbestos. 22 Q. What was your understanding of the 23 regulations? 24 A. My understanding was that it was a caution, G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (81 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 81 1 a caution to the use of asbestos. 2 Q. Do you recall in the regulations references 3 to the amount of asbestos dust that could be 4 in the air around workers? 5 A I believe I scanned that, yes. 6 Q Did you go back to Riley Stoker and say, 7 "Hold on, folks. We're using asbestos in 8 our plant. We've got to start testing the 9 air for asbestos dust"? 10 A I didn't do that. 11 Q Did anyone at Riley Stoker, to your 12 knowledge, start testing the air in the 13 manufacturing facilities where asbestos 14 products were being used to see how much 15 asbestos dust was in the air? 16 A I don't know. 17 Q Was there a safety department at Riley 18 Stoker while you were employed there? 19 A Not that I know of. It was all office, you 20 know, where I worked. I can't attest to 21 what was in the field, construction sites. 22 Q I'm talking just about Riley Stoker, either 23 in the manufacturing facilities or in the 24 office. Was there a safety department for G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (82 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 82 1 Riley Stoker? 2 A. Not in Worcester, not that I know of. 3 Q. How about in Erie or Cornwall Heights or the 4 Southwest facility? 5 A. I don't know. 6 Q. When you were employed for Riley Stoker from 7 1953 to 1972, was it possible to design and 8 manufacture a boiler and not use asbestos9 containing products? 10 A. We did not specify -- if you're referring to 11 insulation, I'll repeat what I told you 12 before, that it was high temperature block, 13 intermediate temperature block, mineral 14 wool. That's the way it was specified. 15 Q. And where did the calcium silicate come into 16 play? 17 A. Pipings only. 18 Q. And did Riley Stoker specify the use of 19 calcium silicate on various points on the 20 boiler? 21 A. Yes. The high temperature sections, which 22 is super heater outlet. 23 Q. And during the time that you were specifying 24 the use of calcium silicate, would that have G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (83 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 83 1 been during the 1953 to 1972 time period? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. During that period of time, did you have an 4 understanding that calcium silicate was 5 asbestos-containing? 6 A. No, I didn't know. 7 Q. You, Harold Riddar, did not know? 8 A. (No verbal response.) 9 Q. Is that correct? 10 A. After 1972, yes. 11 Q. Okay. But prior to 1972? 12 A. I can't recall. 13 Q. Do you know whether or not anyone else at 14 Riley Stoker knew that the calcium silicate 15 that you had been specifying for use in the 16 boilers prior to 1972 was, in fact, 17 asbestos-containing? 18 A. I don't know. 19 MR. NEMEROFF: I want to mark as 20 Riddar No. 9 and Riddar No. 10 two 21 documents, one dated March 24th, 1972. That 22 will be No. 10. And one dated July 31st, 23 1972. We'll label that No. 9. 24 Q. Mr. Riddar, why don't you take a look at G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (84 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 84 1 these for a minute. 2 (Documents marked as Exhibits 9 3 and 10 for identification.) 4 (Witness reviews documents.) 5 Q. Sir, if you could take a look at Riddar 6 No. 10, and if you could read into the 7 record what the subject is. 8 A. "Occupational Safety & Health Act - 1970, 9 Use of Asbestos Products." 10 Q. And is it on a particular kind of 11 letterhead? 12 A. Riley Stoker Corporation, Worcester, 13 Massachusetts. 14 Q. And the date? 15 A. 3/24/72. 16 Q. And could you read the first sentence into 17 the record, please. 18 A. "We understand that there is a current 19 increase in activity to enforce OSHA 20 regulations reference: Curtailment of the 21 use of asbestos. I am not an expert on the 22 subject, but I" -- "but Paragraph 1910.93 of 23 Part 1910 of OSHA health standards defines 24 the inhalation exposure limits to asbestos G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (85 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 85 1 fibers and this is causing recent concern to 2 insulation manufacturers, uses and 3 installers." 4 Q. Sir, who wrote that memo? 5 A. Sam Mencow. 6 Q. And who is he? 7 A. He was in the sales department. 8 Q. Had you discussed with him your reading of 9 the OSHA regulations before he wrote that 10 memo? 11 A. I can't recall. 12 Q. By this memo, sir, do you understand that 13 Riley Stoker was discussing the OSHA 14 regulations pertaining to asbestos? 15 A. Yes. Riley Stoker was concerned. 16 Q. The next highlighted paragraph, would you 17 please read that and the first sentence of 18 the next paragraph into the record. 19 A. "Many forms of insulation containing no 20 asbestos are available for use with our 21 equipment and the obvious reason for use of 22 such material wherever and whenever possible 23 is apparent." 24 Q. And the next sentence? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (86 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 86 1 A. "Calcium silicate insulation does contain 2 asbestos fiber. I believe this is factual 3 regardless of manufacturer or trade name. 4 Accordingly we feel that it's necessary to 5 discuss this consulting" -- "discuss this 6 with consulting engineers in your area to 7 insure they recognize the potential 8 violation of OSHA regulations if they safety 9 (sic) cal-sil insulation" - 10 Q And this was written by somebody in sales? 11 A Yeah. 12 -- "contract requirement. I don't 13 know what, if any, action we will take 14 reference: Current contracts including 15 cal-sil material but we probably will take 16 exception to including cal-sil on future 17 bids where such material is specified." 18 Q So it's Mencow, is that his name? 19 A Sam Mencow. 20 Q M -- I'm terrible with names. Is it Mencow? 21 A Uh-huh. 22 Q Mr. Mencow in the sales department was 23 discussing calcium silicate as being 24 asbestos-containing; is that correct? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (87 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 87 1 A Yes. 2 Q And he underlines in the original that 3 "Calcium silicate insulation does," and he 4 underlines "does," "contain asbestos fiber. 5 I believe this is factual regardless of 6 manufacturer or trade name." 7 Sir, do you understand that to be a 8 true statement? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And is that something you understood to be 11 true back in 1972? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Did you have that same understanding that 14 calcium silicate does contain asbestos 15 regardless of trade name or manufacturer 16 throughout the 1960s? 17 A No, I didn't know in the 1960s. 18 Q If I understand this correctly, sir, Mr. 19 Mencow was talking about the OSHA 20 regulations pertaining to asbestos as it 21 would affect current contracts for Riley 22 Stoker boilers and calcium silicate; is that 23 correct? 24 A Yes. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (88 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 88 1 Q. And by his letter they were going to 2 continue to sell the calcium silicate 3 according to the current contracts, but 4 would then take some steps in the future to 5 make some exceptions; is that right? 6 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 7 A. We were under contract and built to 8 specifications, so it would be possible that 9 there was something in the hopper, and I 10 think that's what he's referring to where 11 the customers came in and specified calcium 12 silicate pipe insulation. And I think 13 that's what he's referring to. 14 Q Is Mr. Mencow still alive? 15 A No. 16 Q When did he pass away? 17 A I don't remember. Couple years ago perhaps. 18 Q Did you find that someone in sales -- well, 19 let me rephrase that. 20 Had you seen this 1972 memo from the 21 sales folks prior to today? 22 A No. 23 Q If you had seen this in 1972, would you have 24 done something different with respect to the G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (89 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 89 1 specifications in the drawings for boilers 2 that you were working on? 3 A. I don't think so, not in the engineering 4 department. But as I told you before, there 5 was an attachment to all our requisitions 6 that forbid the use of -- the note read that 7 the material first listed under this 8 purchase order shall contain no asbestos 9 whatsoever. 10 Q And I'm going to show you this Riddar No. 11 9 -- I think we got those backwards, but 12 that's okay -- No. 9, and can you tell us, 13 what is the date of that document? 14 A July 31st, 1972. 15 Q And is it on Riley Stoker's stationery, 16 letterhead? 17 A Yes, it is. 18 Q And who signed it? 19 A Sam Mencow, the same person. 20 Q And there's a whole bunch of cc's at the 21 bottom. 22 A Yes. 23 Q Can you tell us who those folks were and 24 what departments they were in? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (90 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 90 1 A. Hicinbothem, I believe, was in the -- in 2 sales. George Parmakian was in engineering. 3 So was T. Walsh. W.H. Cross, he was in the 4 shop, I believe. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. I can't be 100 percent sure. Hartwig was a 7 sales engineer, I believe. A.H. Schmidt was 8 an erector. R.U. Sheikh was in engineering 9 on management level, and so was D.A. East. 10 K.M. Crooks was our legal counsel at the 11 time. And Richardson and Sullivan both 12 worked in the purchasing department. 13 Q. Was it common in 1972 for the salespeople to 14 be doing the investigation on OSHA 15 regulations and then communicating it to the 16 rest of Riley Stoker? 17 A. The sales department prepared the bids. 18 They had to be concerned about customers' 19 specifications or the consultant engineers 20 that were employed by the customer. 21 Q. Now, the folks who were on that list who 22 were in engineering, were they your 23 supervisors, your equals, your subordinates? 24 A. They were all equal or better. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (91 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 91 1 Q. Did any of those gentlemen, and I believe it 2 was Mr. -3 (Discussion off the record.) 4 Q. Mr. Harwit -5 A. Hartwig. 6 Q. Hartwig was in engineering? 7 A. Sales engineer, I believe. 8 Q. And who was the other gentleman in 9 engineering with you? 10 A. Parmakian -11 Q. Okay. 12 A. -- and Sheikh. 13 Q. Okay. What was Mr. Parmakian's position at 14 that time relative to yours? 15 A. 1972, probably chief engineer or vice 16 president. I can't recall. He was promoted 17 at some point, maybe later, to vice 18 president. 19 Q. How about Mr. Sheikh, is it? 20 A. Yes. He was vice president. 21 Q. Okay. Did either of these vice presidents 22 come talk to you about the asbestos 23 regulations, the OSHA regulations? 24 A. I can't recall. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (92 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 92 1 Q. Did they have a Riley Stoker meeting where 2 they said, "Hey, everybody, OSHA just came 3 out with this asbestos standard, and we need 4 to do something different from this point 5 forward"? 6 A I can't recall any such meeting. 7 Q You talked earlier that the specifications 8 for asbestos-containing products -- did you 9 say they came from the customer to Riley 10 Stoker? 11 A Yes. 12 Q So if -- as an example, let's say I wanted 13 to build a boiler. 14 A Yes. 15 Q I wanted you to build a boiler. And I say, 16 "Okay, Mr. Riddar. Design me a boiler for 17 my steam-generating plant in Texas." You 18 would design the boiler; is that right? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And then it would be up to me to tell you 21 how to insulate it? 22 A You as the owner - 23 Q Yes. 24 A -- would employ a consultant engineer. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (93 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 93 1 Q Okay. 2 A A plant entails a lot of equipment other 3 than the boiler. The boiler is only part of 4 it. 5 Q You've got the boiler - 6 A The consultant engineer handles the whole 7 insulation, the steam turbines, the 8 generators, the what have you. 9 Q Okay. What - 10 A They would issue a set of specifications yea 11 thick (indicating). 12 Q I guess indicating that's about three inches 13 thick? 14 A Yes, sometimes. Maybe two or three 15 volumes - 16 Q Okay. 17 A -- of specifications. And they would 18 outline what they wanted in that boiler. 19 Q Okay. And then what would Riley Stoker do? 20 A They would give them that. 21 Q Okay. The use of asbestos-containing 22 gaskets and packing, was that a decision 23 that Riley Stoker made, or is that a 24 decision that was made outside of Riley G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (94 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 94 1 Stoker? 2 A. That was made at Riley Stoker. 3 Q. Okay. So we know that with respect to 4 asbestos-containing gaskets and packing, 5 that's something that Riley Stoker had 6 control over the decision making and made 7 those decisions? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. With respect to the need for high 10 temperature block insulation, could you 11 think of any way to make a boiler or to draw 12 a boiler, design a boiler where it didn't 13 have high temperature block insulation? 14 A. Not that I know of. 15 Q. Okay. Can you think of any way for Riley 16 Stoker to have designed a boiler without the 17 need for intermediary (sic) block 18 insulation? 19 A. I suppose we could substitute high 20 temperature for intermediate. 21 Q. Either way you would have to have either 22 high temperature or intermediate temperature 23 block insulation? 24 A. Yes. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (95 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 95 1 Q Okay. 2 A Mineral wool, let's don't forget that. 3 Q And I'm getting to that. And can you think 4 of any way to manufacture -- or to design a 5 boiler where you didn't use mineral wool? 6 A No. 7 Q How about the lightweight plastic 8 refractories; could you design a boiler 9 without having to use those? 10 A Yes, and we sometimes did. 11 Q Okay. Could you think of or could Riley 12 Stoker design a boiler that didn't require 13 somewhere on it calcium silicate pipe 14 covering? 15 A Perhaps. 16 Q How - 17 A We didn't always choose calcium silicate. 18 There were other products like mineral wool 19 that was preformed. Pipe insulation's 20 pretty formal, comes in blocks. Wrap it 21 around the pipe, two halves. 22 Q Kind of three feet long half moons if you 23 looked at them? 24 A Exactly. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (96 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 96 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. And they could sometimes be mineral wool. 3 Q. Now, in the past you've testified that some 4 of the suppliers -- or the manufacturers of 5 insulation that were provided to Riley 6 Stoker included Philip Carey Corporation; is 7 that right? 8 A. We in the engineering department did not 9 make that selection. 10 Q. Okay. Go ahead. 11 A. If it was referred to, it would be "or 12 equal." 13 Q. Okay. Let me ask exactly the way it's been 14 asked in the past. Do you recall -- what 15 names do you recall of the insulation 16 manufacturers that provided asbestos17 containing insulation to Riley Stoker? Can 18 you give me that list? 19 A. I can't recall having a list. I'm sure that 20 in the purchasing department they probably 21 had such a list, but in the engineering 22 department -- I'm going to repeat this 23 again -- the way we specified the 24 insulation, it was high temperature block, G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (97 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 97 1 intermediate temperature block, mineral 2 wool, and that's the way it left the 3 engineering department. 4 Q. Okay. 5 MR. NEMEROFF: Counsel, on Page 78 6 of his deposition of -7 Q. On June 30th of 1995 you were asked a 8 question at Line 8 - 9 MR. ELLISTON: (Indicating). 10 Q. -- "QUESTION: What names do you recall of 11 the insulation manufacturers that provided 12 asbestos-containing insulation to Riley 13 Stoker?" And your answer was: 14 "Philip Carey, Forty-Eight 15 Insulation, Incorporated, Johns Manville, 16 Eagle-Picher. There may have been others 17 that I can't recall right now." 18 Did I read that right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. When these manufacturers of asbestos21 containing insulation sold materials to 22 Riley Stoker, what did Riley Stoker do with 23 them, if you know? 24 A. Do with what? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (98 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 98 1 Q Well, when these manufacturers of asbestos2 containing insulation sold their asbestos3 containing insulation to Riley Stoker, what 4 did Riley Stoker do with it? 5 A Well, Riley Stoker applied the insulation 6 after it was received in the field. 7 Q Okay. So Riley Stoker would actually engage 8 in the application of the insulation 9 materials in the field? 10 A Not always. 11 Q Sometimes? 12 A Sometimes. Sometimes the insulation was 13 sublet. Sometimes we would make what we 14 called a takeoff. 15 Q What does that mean? 16 A We would take the quantities required to 17 insulate the boiler, and if there was a 18 subcontractor, that information was passed 19 on to the subcontractor so he knew how much 20 to go out and buy. 21 Q So you would say, "Buy X amount of Johns 22 Mansville, X amount of Philip Carey"? 23 A No, no, no, no, no. I knew of those in my 24 deposition here. I have heard of those G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (99 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 99 1 manufacturers. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. But I'm not saying that we specified that on 4 our engineering drawings. 5 Q. Okay. We're going to get to that in a 6 second, because I think, if I'm clear, your 7 engineering drawings would be silent as to 8 the manufacturer of the insulation material? 9 A. Exactly. 10 Q. You would just specify insulation for use at 11 this temperature setting with these 12 parameters, and you would leave it at that? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Would the engineering department or would - 15 let me withdraw that. 16 Would Riley Stoker get involved in 17 specifying, as it did with respect to the 18 lightweight castables we looked at, the 19 actual specific brand name or manufacturer 20 name of the -- for the insulation that you 21 were specifying? 22 A. No. No. They had a choice, you know, like 23 I told you before. You know, we had a 24 suppliers' list, but the supplier was picked G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (100 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 100 1 by the purchasing department. 2 Q. So that wasn't engineering, that was 3 purchasing at Riley Stoker that did that? 4 A. Yes, so they could pick the supplier. 5 Q. Okay. Maybe that's where I've been confused 6 by this. When I say you, Harold Riddar in 7 engineering, you didn't care which supplier 8 supplied the insulation that you specified, 9 did you? 10 A. That's right. 11 Q. The purchasing department for Riley Stoker 12 cared because they had the list of potential 13 suppliers for the insulation material? 14 A. Exactly. 15 Q. Okay. And then the purchasing department at 16 Riley Stoker would purchase the insulation 17 materials that would then be applied? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. And I'm going to show you what I'm 20 going to mark as Riddar No. 11, and it's a, 21 I'm sorry, December 2nd, 1964, an 22 Eagle-Picher Company document. And I'm 23 going to ask you to take a look at that. I 24 want to talk with you about that. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (101 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 101 2 for identification.) 3 (Witness reviews document.) 4 Q. Okay. In looking at this exhibit, on The 5 Eagle-Picher Company, I guess it's a back 6 order shipping order, this document reflects 7 some sales of Eagle-Picher SuperTemp block 8 to Riley Stoker; is that correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. Engineering would have no -- or let 11 me rephrase that. 12 Would engineering be involved in 13 generating the purchase order to buy from 14 Eagle-Picher? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Okay. The purchasing department would be 17 involved? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Do you know how the purchasing order (sic) 20 made their list of suppliers and 21 manufacturers from which they would make 22 their purchases? 23 A. No, I have no idea. 24 Q. If you wanted to know that, how did the G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (102 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 102 1 purchasing department come up with their 2 list of folks and companies to buy their 3 asbestos products from, who would we talk to 4 if not you? 5 A Today I don't know. I haven't worked there 6 for the last -- since 1989, a good 12 years. 7 Q Who was at Riley Stoker in the purchasing 8 department during the 1950s and '60s and 9 through the early 1970s that you think we 10 can talk to? 11 A I can't recall. That's a long time ago. 12 Q Would Norman Sarkisian know? 13 A No. 14 Q Who's he? 15 A He's an employee of Babcock Borsig Power 16 today, and he worked previously with Riley 17 Stoker. 18 Q Do you know what his position was at Riley 19 Stoker? 20 A I believe he's in charge of the records 21 department and reproductions. 22 Q Who was Pitman Owens? 23 A I have no idea. 24 Q How about Harvey Ivy? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (103 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 103 1 A. I don't know. 2 Q. Clint Shattuck? 3 A. Don't know. 4 Q. James Douglas Rogers? 5 A. Don't know. 6 Q. We talked about Norman Sarkisian. How about 7 Jason Armour, A-R-M-O-U-R? 8 A. Don't know. 9 Q. Royal Bassett? 10 A. Don't know. 11 Q. Arthur Blackburn? 12 A. Don't know. 13 Q. Ollison Craig? 14 A. Don't know. 15 Q. Fred H. Daniels? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Who's Mr. Daniels? 18 A. He was the -- one of the founders of the 19 company. 20 Q. Founders of the old Riley Stoker? 21 A. Riley Stoker -22 Q. Okay. 23 A. -- Incorporated. 24 Q. How about Arthur T. Hunter? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (104 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 104 1 A No. 2 Q John Hunter? 3 A Don't know. 4 Q Kenneth E. Pote, or Potay or Potee? 5 A Don't know. Never heard of him. 6 Q Robert L. Sauer, S-A-U-E-R? 7 A Don't know. 8 Q Otis Sheldon? 9 A Don't know. 10 Q A Mr. Bray, B-R-A-Y? 11 A Bray I seem to recall was a president of 12 Riley Stoker at one time. 13 Q How about Mr. Griffith? 14 A Yes, he was one of the founders of the 15 company. Are you talking about Robert 16 Griffith or senior Griffith? 17 Q Are there two different folks? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Who are the two different people? 20 A Well, old man Griffith we called him was one 21 of the founders, and Robert Griffith was his 22 son. 23 Q I assume old man Griffith is not alive 24 still? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (105 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 105 1 A. No, he's not. 2 Q. He was probably old man Griffith back in 3 '50s? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Is his son still alive today? 6 A. I don't know. 7 Q. And what's his son's name? 8 A. Robert. 9 Q. A Mr. Daniels? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Who's -12 A. Didn't you mention that before? 13 Q. I might have. 14 A. Fred Daniels? 15 Q. Yes. 16 (Discussion off the record.) 17 Q. Mr. Acari, A-C-A-R-I? 18 A. He worked at Riley Stoker at one time. 19 (Discussion off the record.) 20 Q. Mr. Davy, D-A-V-Y? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Who's he? 23 A. He was the erector -- an erector and in 24 charge of the erection department. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (106 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 106 1 Q. Alex Schmidt? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Who is he? 4 A. He was an erector and in charge of the 5 department, erection department, 6 construction department. 7 Q. How about Steve Samuel? 8 A. He was also in charge of the construction 9 department at one time. 10 Q. Al Reed? Do you know Al Reed, R-E-E-D? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Who's Mr. Reed? 13 A. He was a valve expert. 14 Q. Valve expert? 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. Is he still around? 17 A. He's the only Reed that I know. 18 Q. How about Ed McDonough? 19 A. Yes. He was in the purchasing department. 20 Q. Is he still alive, Mr. McDonough? 21 A. I think he is. 22 Q. Do you know where we might be able to find 23 him? 24 A. The last I heard of him, he was down in G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (107 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 107 1 Florida. 2 Q. Good for him. 3 East Coast, West Coast, middle? 4 A. I have no idea. 5 Q. How about F. Castillo? 6 A. Castillo? 7 Q. Yeah, Castillo. 8 A. He was an engineer in Riley Stoker. 9 Q. And depending upon which part of the country 10 you're in, it depends how you pronounce that 11 last name. 12 A. Well, that's the way we pronounced it at 13 Riley, so I may be wrong. 14 Q. And up here I would say you're 100 percent 15 right. That wouldn't pass muster in South 16 Texas, though. 17 Okay. Let's talk about the erection 18 people, Mr. Davy, Mr. Smith and Mr. Samuel. 19 Is Mr. Davy still alive? 20 A. I don't know. 21 Q. How about Alex -22 A. It doesn't look like it would be possible, 23 but then, again, you don't know. 24 Q. How about Alex Schmidt? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (108 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 108 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Do you know when he was with Riley? 3 A. I don't have the exact dates, but he 4 followed Mr. Davy as the man in charge of 5 the construction division. 6 Q. How about Steve Samuel? 7 A. He came after Alex Schmidt. 8 Q. What department did Al Reed, the valve 9 expert, work in? 10 A. Engineering department. 11 Q. Now, I understand that the erection 12 department was sort of a -- they went out 13 and erected the boilers themselves for Riley 14 Stoker; is that correct? 15 A. Yes, they were in charge of construction. 16 Q. Would that include hiring out insulation 17 subs and all the other subcontractors that 18 needed to be used on a boiler erection? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Would they be involved in the -- with the 21 purchasing department in determining which 22 specific insulations would be purchased for 23 use on a boiler? 24 A. Yes. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (109 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 109 1 Q. Did you visit with the customers, you, 2 yourself, visit with the customers to -- as 3 part of your process of designing and 4 drawing a boiler? 5 A. No, I never visited with the customer. 6 Q. What was the highest position that you 7 attained at Riley Stoker? 8 A. Chief draftsman. 9 Q. And that was within the engineering 10 department? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And what other groups were within the 13 engineering department besides the 14 draftsmen? 15 A. Well, there was requisitioning, and there 16 was what we call -- I should have - - I don't 17 know if we had a name for them, but they 18 work in certain areas, you know, like where 19 we purchased the equipment like air heaters, 20 soap blowers, fans, back -21 Q. So -22 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry? 23 A. Yeah, they were like specialists. I believe 24 we called them specialists. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (110 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 110 1 MR. NEMEROFF: I referred to them 2 as heavy equipment. He's referring to them 3 as specialists. 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. So we had a group of those people. 6 Q. Were you ever the head of the engineering 7 department? 8 A. I was head of the design graphics 9 department. I was manager of the design 10 graphics department. 11 MR. ELLISTON: Rick, let me 12 interject. For us Texans it's 10 after 13 12:00, but for these eastern people it's 10 14 after 1:00, and let's take a lunch break. 15 MR. NEMEROFF: You got it. 16 (Lunch recess taken.) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (111 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 111 1 AFTERNOON SESSION 2 3 (HAROLD Z. RIDDAR, Resumed) 4 DIRECT EXAMINATION, Continued 5 6 BY MR. NEMEROFF: 7 Q. Mr. Riddar, let's go over some beginning 8 stuff. I want to show you what I've already 9 marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibits 1, 2 and 3 10 and ask you to take a look at those. 11 (Witness reviews document.) 12 A. Misspelled my name. 13 Q. You're free to leave now, sir. We 14 apparently have been talking to the wrong 15 person for the past -16 A. You're speaking to the wrong guy. 17 Q. I wouldn't disagree with that. 18 A. You want me to read all these? 19 Q. No. They're, I will represent, 20 substantially similar to one another. Have 21 you ever seen the subpoena duces tecum or 22 the document requests that were served for 23 this deposition to take place -- prior to 24 this deposition taking place? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (112 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 112 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And I'm also going to attach as Exhibit - 3 as Riddar 4 a written order from Special 4 Master Kelton and ask you if you have seen 5 this written document. 6 (Witness reviews document.) 7 A. I don't remember seeing this. 8 Q. Okay. Have you brought documents responsive 9 to the request for documents on those lists, 10 on 1, 2 and 3? 11 A. I have brought the documents that you have 12 in front of you. 13 Q. Okay. Why don't you tell us on the record 14 what it is you have brought and why. 15 A. The arrangement drawings and some -- a 16 typical insulation drawing there, 17 arrangement drawings of boilers. 18 Q. Okay. 19 MR. NEMEROFF: And what number are 20 we up to? 21 MR. PANATIER: 12. 22 MR. NEMEROFF: 12, okay. 23 Q. I have three sets of drawings; is that 24 correct? And the reason I say three is G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (113 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 113 1 because I have three binder clips. 2 A. I can't tell without looking at it. I don't 3 know just exactly what we have there. 4 Q. I want to mark them as something, and I just 5 want to know how to go about marking them, 6 so -- and if you've got some notes that go 7 along with them, we'll just mark the notes 8 as well so that will help us follow along. 9 A. This, what we have here, the first two 10 drawings, are Contract No. 80014, and that's 11 an insulation. This one (indicating) 12 doesn't belong in that set. Sorry. 13 And also Contract 80011, a tile and 14 refractory drawing. And also the applied 15 insulation drawing. These drawings that are 16 clipped together pertains to the boiler, in 17 Texas what we call the RX boilers. 18 The next set that we're looking at is 19 the package boilers. 20 Q. Package? 21 A. Package. 22 Q. Thank you. 23 A. For Southwestern Oil & Refining Company. 24 Q. Okay. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (114 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 114 1 A. And the next drawing that we have here is 2 what we call an RX boiler for Great Southern 3 Chemical Corporation, Corpus Christi, Texas. 4 Q Is that a package boiler as well? 5 A No, it's not. It's a field-erected boiler. 6 And the contract number there is 2136. 7 They're two drawings. 8 Q Okay. 9 A Then we have drawings of an MH boiler for 10 Suntide Refining Company, Viola, Texas. 11 There are three drawings. 12 Then we have a field-erected boiler 13 for Carbide & Carbon Chemical 14 Corporation -- Company, Seadrift, Texas. 15 Q That's it? 16 A Yeah. This is the same boiler, just larger 17 drawing. 18 Q Okay. Why did you bring these? 19 A I brought them after a discussion with the 20 attorneys here at Cetrulo & Capone. 21 Q Without going too much into the substance, 22 why these? I might as well just ask and get 23 it out there. Were you told to look for 24 specific types of boilers or something? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (115 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 115 1 A. No. I was looking for boilers at Borger, 2 Texas. 3 Q. That word, I'm sorry? 4 A. Borger, Texas. Borger, Texas. 5 Q. I'm sorry, what? 6 MR. PANATIER: Borger. 7 MR. NEMEROFF: Borger, okay. 8 A. I was told that's the way it's pronounced in 9 Texas. 10 MR. ELLISTON: He wouldn't know. 11 Q. I've gotten my northeastern ear back in 24 12 hours depending where I am. 13 What specifically were you told to 14 look for in producing these documents? Were 15 you given a list? Were you given -- I'm 16 just trying to figure out how we got from me 17 serving a subpoena on the lawyers to get to 18 you that I wind up with these in front of 19 me. 20 A. Well, in discussion, like I said, with the 21 attorneys here, we had some information - 22 or they had some information as to what we 23 were going to be talking about today. And 24 based on that, I got these drawings out. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (116 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 116 1 Q. Okay. And they're labeled "Sullivan," 2 "Clanton" and "Lewis," and unfortunately I 3 wrote No. 13 on Lewis, but they came without 4 that on there. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Never saw that. Go away. 7 What does Sullivan, Lewis and Clanton 8 mean to you? 9 A. They're plaintiffs. 10 Q. Okay. Is this your handwriting on these 11 (indicating)? Did you write these Post-Its? 12 A. These Post-Its? 13 Q. Yes. 14 A. No. 15 Q. Okay. Who did? 16 A. I have no idea. 17 Q. Where did these drawings come from? 18 A. Drawing files, microfilm files. 19 Q. And located where? 20 A. In Worcester. 21 Q. And my understanding is that there is a 22 drawing for every single solitary boiler 23 ever manufactured, made and sold by Riley 24 Stoker there; is that correct? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (117 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 117 1 A. I can't swear to that, but I hope there is. 2 Q. How big is that storage facility for the 3 documents, the microfiche and stuff? 4 A. The room itself? 5 Q. Yes. 6 A. 40 by 40 perhaps. 7 Q. Would you be -8 A. But we have another storage facility that is 9 on the premises at the office. 10 Q. That holds other drawings and microfiche and 11 things like that? 12 A. Yes -- no, not microfiche, not microfilm, 13 but drawings. 14 Q. So those kind of architectural drawings 15 where you put them out -16 A. Yes. 17 Q. -- and they've got the flat... 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Mr. Riddar, if I were to hand you one of 20 these drawings and ask you to tell me how an 21 individual would be exposed to asbestos from 22 the boiler on the picture, would you be able 23 to do that? 24 A. Yes. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (118 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 118 1 Q How would you know that? 2 A After? 3 Q No, no, no. 4 A After the facts? They were in the 5 insulation. 6 Q Let me break it down. If I hand you, I 7 guess this would be -- this is a type MH 8 boiler - 9 A Yes. 10 Q -- for Southwestern Oil & Refining Company 11 in Corpus Christi, Texas. Is this a field12 erected boiler or a package boiler? 13 A It's a package boiler. 14 Q Okay. Would you be able to show me where 15 all the asbestos would be on this boiler? 16 Is it possible to do that? 17 A I can show you where the insulation is. 18 Q Okay. But my question is, can you tell me 19 where the asbestos is on this boiler? Where 20 would asbestos be on this boiler? 21 A I can show you where the insulation is. I 22 don't think you will find any reference to 23 asbestos on that drawing, but you will find 24 a reference to insulation. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (119 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 119 1 Q. Would I be correct, then, in saying that 2 where I see the word "insulation," I can say 3 that would be asbestos insulation? 4 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 5 A. I didn't say that. 6 Q. All I'm asking, would I be right if I said 7 that? 8 A. I can't tell you that. 9 Q. Okay. So would - 10 A. I haven't looked at the drawings yet. 11 Q. Okay. I thought you had. That's why I was 12 asking the question. I'm going to hand you 13 what's marked as Clanton -- well, we'll mark 14 it as No. - 15 MR. NEMEROFF: Let's do this: The 16 Lewis group is 13. The Sullivan group is 17 14. The Clanton group is 15. That's how 18 we're going to do the numbers. So 13, 14, 19 15. 20 Q. Looking at No. 15, the top drawings, I'm 21 going to hand you some red flags. Could you 22 just put a little red flag where you would 23 find asbestos? 24 A. I will - G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (120 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 120 1 Q. You can just pull it out. It's just the 2 first one. 3 A. I will tell you where you can find 4 insulation. (Witness complies.) 5 Overlapping things here. 6 Q. You can put that over here. 7 A. May I move this? 8 Q. I haven't figured out where that came from, 9 but we'll just leave it there for now. 10 A. Now, there are areas here that I can't show 11 you. 12 Q. What do you mean there are areas here that 13 you can't show me? 14 A. Well, there may be a couple of handholds, 15 and then we have areas, gaskets (putting 16 stickies on drawings). 17 This (indicating) is the cross-section 18 of the boiler, and this is the outside of 19 the boiler with the outside covering on it. 20 Q. Now, the packaged boilers come completely 21 encased, ready to go and just be hooked up 22 on-site; is that correct? 23 A. Exactly. 24 Q. All the insulation is applied, be it G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (121 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 121 1 asbestos or non-asbestos, at a Riley 2 facility before it leaves that facility so 3 when it gets to the site, you just hook in 4 pipes and light it up? 5 A Yeah. 6 Q That's a pretty basic - 7 A Yes, that is the... 8 Q Okay. Is it contemplated that there are 9 going to have to be pipes attached to the 10 packaged boiler? I mean, do you leave 11 flanges exposed? 12 A It would be contemplated the boiler would 13 have to be fed, you know, feed water, but 14 Riley Stoker did not furnish, as the name 15 implied, a package. 16 Q So they would send it to a facility or job 17 site, and your responsibility in erecting 18 the boiler ended once it hit the road from 19 the Riley manufacturing facility? 20 A I believe that Riley paid the freight. 21 Q Did Riley ever send its erection crews out 22 to help set up the package boilers? 23 A Not generally. 24 Q Were there instructions that came along with G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (122 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 122 1 the package boiler? 2 A. I don't know. 3 Q. Did you ever prepare instructions on how to 4 set up and operate a package boiler? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Do you know how to run a boiler? 7 A. No. 8 Q. You know how to build them, not run them? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. Okay. How about maintaining a boiler; are 11 you familiar with how to maintain a boiler? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Okay. So when we're looking at this package 14 boiler, where you've put the red strips - 15 and I see a number of them there -- what 16 types of insulation are you saying were on 17 those package boilers? Just give me the 18 full list, and we'll go back to the... 19 A. Well, you can read it off the notes that are 20 on here. Say on the side walls, for 21 instance, we had two layers of asbestos 22 millboard, staggered joints, two inches of 23 Spintex No. 415 compressed to one and 24 three-quarters followed by 10-gauge welded G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (123 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 123 1 casing. 2 Q Okay. 3 A Now, that was pretty much through all of the 4 walls in that -- in the boiler. 5 Q Now, when we talked earlier -- and I'm sorry 6 I'm leaning so close, but I'm trying to read 7 upside down -- you had told me that the 8 insulation would just be generic, and it 9 would just say "Insulation," but when we're 10 looking at this particular package boiler, 11 it says "Two layers, 4" -- is that foot or 12 4-inch? 4-inch? -- something, "4," 13 something, ASB." - 14 A "Millboard." 15 Q -- "millboard," closed quote. Now, here's a 16 specific specification for asbestos on one 17 of the drawings. 18 A Yes. 19 Q Can you reconcile for me how it is that - 20 withdraw that. 21 Why did you say asbestos millboard on 22 that? 23 A Because that was the first layer of 24 insulation that they put on. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (124 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 124 1 Q. Well, were there other types -- well, 2 withdraw that. 3 What I'm trying to figure out is up 4 till now you've just been saying insulation, 5 and you didn't know if it was asbestos or 6 not, and you made no distinction between 7 asbestos and non-asbestos, but here we have 8 a distinct specification on a drawing that 9 says "Asbestos" on it, and I'm trying to 10 figure out why. 11 A. I neglected -- previously neglected to tell 12 you that I was speaking to the field-erected 13 boilers like the drawing that you have in 14 front of you. 15 Q. So on package boiler specifications, you 16 would because you were both manufacturer as 17 well as the -- you were doing the whole 18 thing from soup to nuts? You would specify 19 even the types of materials that had to be 20 used on it? 21 A. These boilers were manufactured in Erie, 22 Pennsylvania. I never worked there. 23 Q. Okay. Did you ever draw or design a package 24 boiler? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1 _020602.txt (125 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 125 1 A. No. 2 Q. In all of your career at Riley Stoker, were 3 you only involved in the design drawing of 4 field-erected boilers? 5 A. We did -- after the purchase of Union Iron 6 Works, we processed some of these boilers 7 through the Riley Stoker office in 8 Worcester. 9 Q. What does that mean? 10 A. But I was -- well, this type of boiler is 11 pretty much standardized. There's not a 12 great deal of engineering to it. It was 13 sort of a run-of-the-mill type of boiler. I 14 personally have never drawn or made a 15 drawing pertaining to an MH boiler. 16 Q. MH means package? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. So when it comes to a package boiler, 19 and we go to the first page, and it says - 20 you've indicated where the red strips are we 21 have the asbestos millboard? 22 A. Uh-huh. 23 Q. And then what other insulation do we have? 24 A. We had what they called Spintex. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (126 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 126 1 Q What is Spintex? 2 A I have no idea. 3 Q Okay. Is it an insulation material? 4 A Yes, I believe it is. 5 Q Is it asbestos-containing? 6 A I don't know. 7 Q What other insulation materials do we have 8 on here? 9 A We have the -- let me look at this drawing 10 here where I can read it. There was no 11 other insulating materials that I can see on 12 this drawing. 13 Q No gaskets? No, but you - 14 A Gaskets were not an insulating material. 15 (Discussion off the record.) 16 Q How about asbestos on the boiler; can you 17 tell me where asbestos would be on the 18 boiler besides the asbestos millboard? 19 A There was none other. 20 Q No gaskets? 21 A Oh, that was not an insulating material. We 22 had gaskets on the boiler. 23 Q How about asbestos materials besides the 24 asbestos millboard; what other asbestos G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (127 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 127 1 materials were used on a package boiler? 2 A. None that I know of. 3 Q. Okay. Let me make sure that we're clear on 4 this. Aside from asbestos millboard, did 5 you use asbestos gaskets on a package 6 boiler? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Did you use asbestos packing on a package 9 boiler? 10 A. I really don't know. 11 Q. Asbestos rope? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Any asbestos firebrick? 14 A. I never heard of asbestos firebrick. 15 Q. How about asbestos refractory products? 16 A. I never heard of asbestos refractory. 17 Q. Asbestos refractory cements? 18 A. I've heard of cement. There was refractory 19 used on this boiler at the bottom in the 20 furnace. 21 Q. Do you know whether it was asbestos or not? 22 A. No, I don't. 23 Q. How would we find out if it was or wasn't? 24 A. I don't know. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (128 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 128 1 Q Would purchasing be able to tell us? 2 A I don't think so. 3 Q Who put the boiler together? 4 A The shop, Erie shop. 5 Q What bought the refractory material to put 6 into the package boiler? 7 A Erie purchasing. 8 Q So if I wanted to know what went into the 9 refractory products or what refractory 10 products were used on a package boiler, I 11 would have to go to Erie to find this out? 12 A Yes. 13 Q It's cold there right now, isn't it? 14 A (No verbal response.) 15 Q Yeah. 16 A The lake is frozen, too. 17 Q Do you know anything about the records 18 pertaining to package boilers at Erie? 19 A No. 20 Q Is the Erie shop still around? 21 A Oh, yes, yes. They -- let me say this: The 22 records that they had were sent to 23 Worcester, so some of the records are in 24 Worcester. These drawings came out of G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (129 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 129 1 Worcester. 2 Q. Okay. But the orders for the refractories 3 that would be put into a package boiler, 4 where would we find those to find out what 5 specific refractories? 6 A. Before the purchase of Union Iron Works by 7 Riley Stoker, those records were in Erie. 8 After the purchase, they are in Worcester. 9 Q. And when did Riley buy Union Iron Works? 10 Would that be 1960? 11 A. '60, uh-huh. 12 Q. Okay. When it comes to the package boilers, 13 could there have been asbestos in the 14 insulation that was used on the boiler 15 without the word "asbestos" appearing on the 16 drawing in front of you? 17 A. The drawing refers to Spintex 415, No. 415, 18 I believe. I have no experience with 19 Spintex 415. I'll tell you I don't know 20 what it contains. 21 Q. Well, where the word "Insulation" appears on 22 a package boiler, are you able to say 23 definitively yes or no that that insulation 24 was asbestos or non-asbestos? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (130 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 130 1 A. No, I can't do that. 2 Q. Okay. How would we -- and we would have to 3 determine that by looking at the records 4 from the manufacturer of those boilers? 5 A. We would -- if I was to look for that, I 6 would have to go back to the supplier of 7 Spintex because only they would know what 8 was in the insulation. 9 Q. Are there any other places where it just 10 says insula -- well, let me just take a 11 look. When it says "Loose packing," do you 12 know what that is? 13 A. That would be used in an area, you know, 14 where you have an irregular surface, and it 15 could be the same material, you know, that's 16 sort of loosened up and packed into that 17 area. 18 Q. Like cement mixed up or - 19 A. No, no. 20 Q. -- like rope packing that would be - 21 A. No. It would be the Spintex. If I was to 22 do it, I would take a batch of Spintex, and 23 that obviously is sort of soft consistency, 24 because it tells you it's compressible. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (131 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 131 1 Q. Where this says "JM No. 23 brick," do you 2 know what that is? 3 A JM I would think refers to Johns Manville. 4 Q Okay. 5 A I'm not familiar with the brick. 6 Q Okay. And where it says "Castable 7 refractory," you don't know who made that? 8 A No, I have no idea. 9 Q And it says "A.P. Green Kast-Set," K-A-S-T, 10 Set, you don't know if that's asbestos11 containing or not, do you? 12 A No, I don't. 13 Q And where it talks about three-inch block 14 insulation for the super heating casing, 15 would that be considered a high temperature 16 block insulation? 17 A That would be a high temperature block 18 insulation. 19 Q What did the Spintex look like? 20 A I have no idea. I've never seen it. 21 Q When it says "12-foot by 1 3/4-inch INS.", 22 I-N-S, period, "casing," is that insulating 23 casings? 24 A Inside the casing. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (132 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 132 1 Q. Inside, thank you. 2 So we have 2-inch Litecast. Do you 3 know, what's Litecast? 4 A. It's a Litecast refractory like we referred 5 to before. 6 Q. Like a lightweight castable? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Similar to the ones that we looked at on 9 that list of the -- like a plastic -10 Exhibit No. 5, which are those lightweight 11 castables we talked about? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Okay. And you don't know if those were 14 asbestos-containing or not? 15 A. No, I don't. 16 Q. "4-inch Riley TE-3 castable," what' s that? 17 A. It's a refractory, standard refractory, 2800 18 degree refractory. 19 Q. It's called a Riley TE-3 castable. Did 20 Riley Stoker actually manufacture a 21 castable? 22 A. No, they didn't. 23 Q. Did they rebrand their name on a castable? 24 A. They referred to it as TE-3. I don't know G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (133 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 133 1 the reason why it was designated as such. 2 Q. Who made it? 3 A. All the refractory suppliers made the TE-3 4 castable. 5 Q. And did Riley put their name on it to call 6 it the Riley TE-3 castable, or is it just -7 A. I think Riley put their name on it that says 8 TE-3. You know, if you go way back in the 9 fabrication of boilers, before the 10 refractory came into use, they would take 11 firebrick and beat it to pieces and use it 12 as a refractory. 13 Q. They would break it down and use it -- break 14 it down like a dust and mix it with water 15 to -16 A. You go back to -17 Q. Did you ever do that? 18 A. No, no, no, no. 19 Q. Have you ever seen that done? 20 A. No. 21 Q. How do you know they did that? 22 A. I think I read it somewhere. 23 Q. Do you remember where? 24 A. No. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (134 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 134 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. They're still using brick rubble on the 3 bottom of the furnaces, which is the same 4 thing, but today you don't use a sledge 5 hammer, you buy it. 6 Q. And all the block insulation, either 7 five-inch block or four-inch block, you 8 don't know who manufactured that, do you? 9 A. No, I don't. 10 Q. And you don't know if it's asbestos11 containing or not, do you? 12 A. No. Does that say "block insulation"? At 13 the rear wall of the boiler there was 14 sometimes firebricks used. 15 Q. Yeah. You have "Rear wall construction, two 16 layers 2-inch Shiplap tile, 5-inch block 17 insulation," and "No. 10 Georgia welded 18 casing"? 19 A. Yes. It's a steel 10-gauge -- or 10-gauge 20 steel casing. 21 Q. Guess who's never built a boiler before - 22 me. I see GA, I think Georgia. 23 A. There was block insulation used back there. 24 It was -- the first two layers were tiles, G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (135 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 135 1 which is a firebrick material, refractory 2 material, followed by the insulation block 3 and then the casing. 4 Q. And the firebrick, did it have to be 5 mortared into place, or was it just placed 6 into place? 7 A Both methods were used. 8 Q Okay. Both or bolt? 9 A Both methods. 10 Q Okay. 11 A The firebrick method would be sometimes 12 dipped in a -- the material came in in drums 13 wet, and they would dip the firebrick in it 14 before they placed it. 15 Q Now - 16 A And sometimes they would be placed dry. 17 Q Do you know if Riley Stoker ever tested the 18 air in the facility where the package 19 boilers were being manufactured to determine 20 how much, if any, asbestos dust was being 21 created when making these boilers? 22 A I don't know. 23 Q I see dates on here of around 1965. Would 24 that be approximately when this plan was G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (136 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 136 1 written -- was drawn? 2 A. I would suppose if that date is on there, 3 that's -4 Q. Yeah, that's - 5 A. -- that would have been in the transition 6 period. It would be moved out to Erie. 7 Q. And if the package boilers were fairly 8 standard in the sense that there wasn't a 9 whole lot of difference between the package 10 boilers, would you have a separate drawing 11 for every package boiler that was 12 manufactured and shipped out? 13 A. Yes, we did. You know, we changed the title 14 block, and the length and the width 15 sometimes varied -16 Q. Okay. 17 A. -- depending on the capacity of the boiler. 18 If you needed 50,000 pounds of steam an 19 hour, you wouldn't go out and buy 100,000 20 pounds of steam an hour boiler. So the 21 length and the width varied. 22 Q. Now, I'm looking at the front elevation, and 23 it says, "Note: Smoke outlet to have 3-inch 24 insulation/10-gauge lagging by U.I.W. in G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (137 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 137 1 shop." 2 What does that mean? 3 A. That means that that piece was insulated and 4 lagged in the Union Iron Works. 5 Q. What does lagged mean? 6 A. Covered. 7 Q. With, like, calcium silicate? 8 A. No, no, no, no, no. Casing. 9 Q. Casing. 10 A. Steel casing, 10-gauge steel casing. It's 11 roughly a tenth of an inch there. 12 Q. I don't see here where gaskets would go. 13 A. They would go at the main openings. If you 14 look at the upper and lower drums, you would 15 see an oval. 16 Q. Yeah. 17 A. An elliptical opening. 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. That's where the manhole covers were that 20 gave you access into the drums. There would 21 be a gasket in there. 22 Q. Now, how about the -- when a package boiler 23 had to be serviced, what generally was 24 repaired, replaced or maintained? Do you G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (138 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 138 1 know? 2 A. No, I don't know. 3 Q. That wasn't your business? 4 A. That was not my business. 5 Q. Can you put just some more -- just put the 6 red flags where the gaskets would go? 7 A. Sure. 8 Q. Thanks. 9 A. I'll cover it up. Maybe you won't see it. 10 (Witness complies.) 11 You've got too many red flags here. 12 Q. That's okay. We'll talk about a lot of 13 them. Okay. So now we've got gaskets on 14 top of -- okay. And the gaskets you say 15 were asbestos-containing? 16 A. In the MH boilers I really don't know what 17 they used for gaskets. 18 Q. And you don't know how these were maintained 19 and repaired and serviced after they 20 left -- they got to where they went to? 21 A. No. They went to the customer -22 Q. Okay. 23 A. -- and they took care of it. 24 Q. Do you know whether or not Riley had a G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (139 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 139 1 manual for how to maintain and repair their 2 package boilers? 3 A Not that I know of. 4 Q So they could, but you just don't know about 5 it? 6 A No, I don't know. 7 Q Well, you don't know means you personally 8 don't know; that doesn't mean they didn't do 9 it, right? 10 A I just don't know. 11 Q Okay. I just want to make sure that we're 12 talking the same on that one. 13 (Discussion off the record.) 14 Q Now, No. 15, which is the Clanton, if an 15 individual worked near, around or even on 16 that package boiler when it was being 17 serviced or repaired or fixed, you could not 18 say whether or not that individual would 19 have any asbestos exposure or not? 20 A No, I couldn't. It would depend on where 21 the repair was taking place. 22 Q Okay. 23 A If you had access to the furnace, you could 24 go inside the furnace without being exposed G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (140 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 140 1 to -- they're just tubes inside, 2 refractories on the floor. 3 Q. And there's a lot of products on that that 4 we've talked about that you don't know if 5 there was asbestos in it or not; is that 6 correct? 7 A. Right. 8 Q. Okay. Now, has Riley Stoker ever - 9 withdraw that. 10 From our discussion today, it sounds 11 like Riley Stoker used a lot of asbestos 12 gaskets. Would that be a fair statement? 13 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 14 Q. Well, let me rephrase that and ask it this 15 way: Would it be fair to say that Riley 16 Stoker used asbestos-containing gaskets on 17 every boiler it either manufactured or 18 designed? 19 A. After 1972 there was concern -20 Q. Prior to '72. 21 A. Yes, gaskets contained asbestos in most 22 cases. 23 Q. And the packing, also asbestos-containing 24 prior to '72, to your knowledge? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (141 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 141 1 A. Yes. Yeah. 2 Q. Is it your understanding that after 1972 3 none of the products, gaskets or packing or 4 insulation, had asbestos in it anymore? 5 A. No, I wouldn't say that. 6 Q. What continued to have asbestos in it after 7 1972, that you're aware of? 8 A. Gaskets. 9 Q. Gaskets. 10 And Riley continued to specify 11 asbestos gaskets on its boilers, as well as 12 manufacture boilers with asbestos gaskets? 13 A. Yes, because there was no other material 14 available. 15 Q. After 1972 did Riley Stoker put a warning or 16 issue a warning either on its package 17 boilers or in its specifications that 18 asbestos-containing gaskets may be 19 hazardous? 20 A. I don't know. 21 Q. Did Riley Stoker ever, prior to 1972, test 22 the gaskets that it was using to determine 23 how much asbestos dust was being given off? 24 A. Not that I know of. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (142 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 142 1 Q. Did Riley Stoker before 1972 ever test the 2 asbestos-containing packing to determine how 3 much asbestos dust was being given off when 4 you used it? 5 A. Not that I know of. 6 Q. How about after 1972; did Riley Stoker ever 7 test the gaskets with asbestos in it for 8 asbestos dust release? 9 A. Not that I know of. 10 Q. And after 1972 did Riley Stoker ever test 11 the asbestos packing material to see how 12 much asbestos dust it gave off? 13 A. Not that I know of. 14 Q. On the field-erected boilers -- on the 15 field-erected boilers -- and those are 16 No. 13 and No. 14 -- I imagine these are 17 bigger than the package boilers? 18 A. Yes. These boilers are field-erected. 19 Q. You're looking at No. 13, I think? Yeah, 20 Lewis. What's the date of that? 21 A. The date of this drawing is 3/9/82. 22 Q. 1982? 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. Okay. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (143 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 143 1 A. 3/15/82. 2 Q. So would it be your understanding that in 3 1982 there would be no asbestos insulation 4 used on that? 5 A. I don't believe it was. You know, this 6 was -- in looking at these drawings, I 7 believe, without looking at any other 8 documents, that the insulation was sublet. 9 Q. What does that mean? 10 A. Well, we gave them the temperature ranges on 11 the various pipelines, and as you can see on 12 these sections here (indicating), we 13 referred to insulation as four-inch-thick 14 insulation double layer -- four-inch-thick 15 insulation double layer, two inches by two 16 inches. 17 Q. Was Riley Stoker still -- when is the - 18 withdraw that. 19 When was the last time that Riley 20 Stoker used an asbestos-containing gasket in 21 any of its boilers? 22 A. 1986, I believe. 23 Q. Was that a package boiler or field-erected 24 boiler? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (144 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 144 1 A. Probably both. 2 Q. Why 1986? 3 A. Because up to that time there was no gasket 4 material that would safely -- that could 5 safely be used as flange gaskets and 6 handhold gaskets and such. 7 Q. And do you know who manufactured any of 8 those gaskets? 9 A. Flexitalic, Spirotallic. 10 Q. Were they all metal-wound gaskets, or were 11 they -12 A. They were metal gaskets with a filler, with 13 an insulating filler, for packing. 14 Q. Were you all using Garlock gaskets? 15 A. I have seen Garlock gaskets. 16 Q. How about John Crane gaskets? 17 A. I can't be sure. 18 Q. How about Victor gaskets? 19 A. Never heard of them. 20 MR. NEMEROFF: Do you have a list, 21 Jackie, because I'm gasket freezing right 22 now. 23 Q. How about Sepco gaskets? 24 A. Never heard of them. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (145 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 145 1 Q. Craneco gaskets? 2 A. Never heard of them. 3 Q. Durabla, how about Durabla gaskets? 4 A. Never heard of them. 5 Q. Okay. When Riley Stoker bought insulation 6 materials that it was going to use to erect 7 boilers and the like, would it store them at 8 a central Riley Stoker facility, or would it 9 store them at the site where the field10 erected boiler was going up? 11 A. As far as I know, it went directly to the 12 site. 13 Q. Where would an asbestos gasket go on the - 14 was it 1982 you said that was -15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Can you just use our friends, the red flags, 17 again and show me where the gaskets would 18 go? 19 A. (Witness complies.) 20 Q. Are you trying to save my red flags? 21 A. Yeah. You know, the sign on the boilers 22 changed over the years. This is now what we 23 call a welded wall boiler. 24 Q. As opposed to? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (146 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 146 1 A That, you know, there were -- handholds were 2 no longer needed because all the tubes were 3 welded. They were not rolled. So there was 4 no need for handholds. 5 Q I've got a few more gaskets I want to ask 6 you about. 7 A Yes. 8 Q A.W. Chesterton? 9 A I have heard of them, but we have never used 10 their gaskets for these kind of 11 applications. 12 Q How about Anchor, Anchor Packing? 13 A I have heard of them, but here again I don't 14 think we ever used them. 15 Q Okay. Who - 16 A Chesterton was used for very, very small 17 quantities, you know. I mean, there were - 18 I believe it was maybe -- it was smaller 19 than a valve packing, you know, that if you 20 referred to Riley using -- having used that, 21 it's negligent. 22 Q Negligent? 23 A Yes. Minimal quantities. 24 Q Negligible? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (147 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 147 1 A Yes. 2 Q Okay. You almost gave him a heart attack. 3 A Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. 4 If you used a cupful for a boiler, I 5 think you did fine. 6 Q Okay. 7 THE WITNESS: (To Mr. Elliston) 8 What did I say? 9 Q If you want to say they were negligent, I'll 10 let you say that all you want. That's quite 11 all right. I'm fine with that, but in 12 fairness I think you meant negligible. 13 A Yes. My accent gets me sometimes. 14 Q When we're looking any of the other boilers 15 on that No. 13 stack, are any of them 16 earlier than 1982? 17 A I have '84. 18 Q '84? 19 A And I have '81. 20 MR. ELLISTON: I apologize, before 21 you go to the next boiler or the next 22 drawing I just need to make a quick run. 23 Can I just have five minutes? 24 MR. NEMEROFF: Sure. Go ahead. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (148 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 148 1 (Recess taken.) 2 Q. Okay. Mr. Riddar, you said earlier that 3 these drawings that we're looking at here 4 are not the complete set for each one of 5 these boilers. Did I hear that correctly? 6 A The entire boiler? 7 Q Yes. 8 A No. 9 Q So if I wanted to know every -- I mean, for 10 each of the boilers that are drawn out here 11 (indicating) there are more drawings that 12 are relevant to that boiler that are not 13 copied for us here? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q Okay. Because you said at one point some of 16 these were multiple volumes of three-inch17 thick volumes, so this is just a couple of 18 pages from what might otherwise be hundreds 19 of drawings for a particular boiler? 20 A I don't believe I said that. 21 Q No, I'm asking. I don't think you said 22 that, but I want to make sure that I'm 23 getting it. Let me rephrase this. 24 A I referred to specifications. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (149 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 149 1 Q Okay. And on the specifications there are 2 more drawings in the specifications for each 3 of the boilers represented here on the table 4 today? 5 A There are no drawings with the 6 specifications. 7 Q Then if I were to ask you to provide for us 8 every conceivable document pertaining to, 9 let's say, what's marked here the Ralph M. 10 Parsons Company, Los Angeles, California, 11 for Viola, Texas, right here (indicating), 12 the boiler, whatever number this is, I think 13 it's index -- do you do index numbers? Is 14 that how you catalog these? 15 A No. They're filed by the customer's name. 16 Q Okay. And that would be Suntide Refining 17 Company? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Okay. What I have here in front of me, is 20 this every drawing in Riley Stoker's 21 possession for this boiler? 22 A I don't think so. 23 Q So there's more than what's here? 24 A Yes. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (150 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 150 1 Q. What else is there that is not here? 2 A. You have in front of you a general 3 arrangement drawing. 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. You have no detailed drawings. 6 Q. So there are detailed drawings that would 7 show, I guess, kind of zooming in on 8 specific parts of this boiler that would 9 give us more detail than what we're seeing 10 here? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And you did not bring those here today? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Why not? 15 A. I was not asked to. 16 Q. Were you told -- withdraw that. 17 Were you specifically told not to 18 bring some things? 19 A. No. 20 Q. So you were told just to bring the general 21 drawings and not the specific? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Would the general drawings contain more 24 detailed information about the insulation G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (151 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 151 1 each of these boilers? 2 A. No. 3 Q. It would not? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Why not? 6 A. There was no need for it. 7 Q. Why do you say that? 8 A. I can't picture myself detailing that piece 9 of insulation, sorry. 10 Q. So just saying "insulation" is enough? 11 A. The insulation drawings that you have in 12 front of you is enough. 13 Q. So you brought insulation drawings in 14 addition to the general drawings? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Do you distinguish between drawings and 17 specifications? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What is that distinction, or what is the 20 difference? 21 A. Specifications are written. Drawings are 22 pictorial. 23 Q. And you've brought with you drawings today, 24 not specifications? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (152 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 152 1 A. Right. 2 Q. Do the specifications that match up with 3 these drawings still exist? 4 A. Sometimes. 5 Q. Sometimes when, sometimes when not? I guess 6 that's bad syntax, but what would -- when 7 would they exist versus when would they not 8 exist? Is there some event, calendar date 9 or something that would make that 10 distinction? 11 A. Not that I know. 12 Q. Have they just been lost or thrown out or 13 destroyed over time? 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. Do they exist in the same place as the 16 drawings do, the specifications, that is? 17 A. No, they don't. 18 Q. Where do the specifications exist as opposed 19 to the drawings? 20 A. The drawings would be in the drawing file or 21 on microfilm. 22 Q. And the specifications? 23 A. Would be in book form. 24 Q. And where are those kept if they are to G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (153 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 153 1 exist? 2 A. In the records department. 3 Q. And is the records department in Worcester? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Is there -- during the time that you were 6 there, was there a document destruction 7 policy or document retention policy in 8 place? 9 A. Not that I know of. 10 Q. Is there any reason why you would keep the 11 line drawings as opposed to the 12 specifications? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Why? 15 A. I would have to mark it. 16 Q. What does that mean? 17 A. If you want to sell a part, you want to sell 18 a tube, we would have the drawings on how to 19 make it. And if the customer came back and 20 asked for it, we would furnish it. 21 Q. So if a customer came back and said, "I want 22 a replacement part for whatever we put in," 23 you would go to the drawing as opposed to 24 the specification? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (154 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 154 1 A Yes. 2 Q What would be included -- what is not 3 included on the specifications that are 4 included on the drawings to make that the 5 easier thing to do? 6 A Specifications are written by the customer, 7 not Riley. 8 Q Oh, okay. So specifications were not 9 generated by Riley Stoker, they were 10 generated by the customer? 11 A Yes. 12 Q When it came to the field erection of the 13 boilers by Riley, would there be 14 specifications by Riley as to how to do that 15 and what insulation to include, or would 16 that still come from the customer? 17 A The erection was done by boiler -- by 18 Riley - 19 Q Okay. So -20 A -- in most cases. 21 Q Okay. So in most cases Riley would do the 22 erection, and what I'm wondering is, would 23 Riley then also decide when they are 24 erecting the boiler which insulations from G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (155 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 155 1 that list we've talked about earlier they 2 were going to use? Does that make sense? 3 A. No. 4 Q. No, I didn't think so. 5 So in most cases Riley would erect the 6 boilers, and when they would erect the 7 boilers, would they -- would Riley erection 8 people then pick from the list of, I guess, 9 approved products, insulation or asbestos 10 products or whatever they are, to then use 11 in the erection of the boiler? 12 A. They went by the drawings, the erection 13 department. That's what the drawings were 14 made for, fabrication and erection. 15 Q. So when erection -- but in terms of like 16 insulation, when Riley was going to do the 17 insulation work, Riley would determine which 18 particular brands or manufacturers of 19 insulation to use when they were erecting 20 the boiler; is that right? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Who would? 23 A. The purchasing department. 24 Q. Okay. So the purchasing department of Riley G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (156 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 156 1 Stoker? 2 A. That's right. 3 Q. Okay. Did the erection department have a 4 choice in which materials they could 5 specify, or did the purchasing department 6 make that decision for the erection 7 department? 8 A. The purchasing department purchased the 9 material. 10 Q. Okay. I guess where I'm trying to -- or I'm 11 just missing a step. Riley is going to 12 erect the boiler for a customer and do all 13 the insulation work and put it up. In order 14 to do that, there has to be insulation work 15 done, and if Riley is going to be doing that 16 insulation work, I'm trying to figure out 17 how the Riley erection department folks 18 wound up with the specific insulation they 19 would use to erect the boiler. So did the 20 erection department say, "Hey, purchasing 21 department, I want Johns Manville or Philip 22 Carey," or did they say, "Hey, purchasing 23 department, I need insulation. You send me 24 whatever you think I need, and I'll just put G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1 _020602.txt (157 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 157 1 it up"? 2 A. The erection department erected what was 3 specified on the drawings by the engineering 4 department. 5 Q. Okay. But where it says "insulation" with 6 no name next to it, how did the erection 7 department know what to put up as 8 insulation? You can't just say "Give me 9 insulation," or maybe this is beyond your 10 area. Do you not know this? 11 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 12 A. Let me put it this way: I can't answer your 13 question any other way. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. If you have a box of insulation that says 16 high temperature block insulation and you 17 have an area that is going to be insulated 18 by high temperature block insulation, you 19 take -- open that box and you apply it to 20 that area. 21 Q. Okay. I understand -- I'm good there. I'm 22 with you on that one. What I'm trying to 23 figure out is you don't just -- the 24 purchasing department of Riley Stoker didn't G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1 _020602.txt (158 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 158 1 just go buy, you know, generic like you go 2 to a store and you see tuna fish or 3 spaghetti or meat sauce. There are 4 manufacturers for high temperature block 5 insulation. And what I'm trying to figure 6 out, how did the block insulation get chosen 7 by either the purchasing department or the 8 erection department to be used. And if I'm 9 going outside your knowledge, then let me 10 know that, too. 11 A I don't know. 12 Q Okay. I would have to ask someone in the 13 purchasing department about that? 14 A I don't know. 15 Q Well, either the purchasing department or 16 the boiler erection department, they would 17 be able to tell me how they operated? 18 A I can't speak for them. 19 Q Okay. Fair enough. On the subpoena duces 20 tecum, Nos. 1, 2, and 3, can you tell me of 21 the list of requests we made for today, what 22 number do these drawings respond to? 23 A I don't know. 24 Q Did you look through that subpoena duces G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (159 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 159 1 tecum and then undergo some investigation of 2 materials to be responsive to that subpoena? 3 A. Not really, no. 4 Q. What did you do with it when you looked at 5 it? 6 A. I read through it. 7 Q. Did you -- did it call -- upon -- after 8 having read through it, did you do something 9 in response to having read it? 10 A. No. 11 Q. So you undertook no search, no 12 investigation, nothing to be responsive; you 13 just read it, put it down and forgot about 14 it till today? 15 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 16 A. No, I didn't forget it. 17 Q. Okay. But you do -18 MR. ELLISTON: Excuse me. 19 MR. NEMEROFF: I'm sorry. 20 MR. ELLISTON: Let me interject 21 here, because I've tried to let you ask the 22 witness questions, but I do want to make a 23 statement for the record that, as counsel 24 knows, Riley Stoker has prepared a response, G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (160 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 160 1 has filed objections with the Court. It is 2 the subject of ongoing hearings that will 3 continue into the future, and so Riley 4 Stoker has produced numerous documents in 5 response to requests from Baron & Budd, as 6 well as making numerous objections to those 7 documents. The documents that are produced 8 today are in addition to documents that had 9 been produced earlier. 10 Now, having said that, go ahead. 11 MR. NEMEROFF: Okay. Well, subject 12 to that, and just bear with us, we're about 13 to do some lawyer stuff for a second here. 14 We all talk just to hear ourselves talk and 15 preserve records. We are clearly not 16 considering, even if I hit the end of today, 17 considering this deposition over with 18 because as -- counsel's right, you objected 19 to our subpoena duces tecum, and subject to 20 getting your objection either overruled or 21 sustained or whatever and more production of 22 documents is forthcoming, I may want to ask 23 more questions of the witness if it becomes 24 apparent that I need to do so, or if you G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1 _020602.txt (161 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 161 1 decide to give me somebody else, I may take 2 somebody else's deposition. But since the 3 subpoena -- and we're kind of going around 4 on this thing, and all of this is basically 5 just for us. I know that. You all didn't 6 provide -- I mean, you provided some boxes, 7 and we're still trying to figure out, and 8 that's what I've got, this list of 9 production, and that's why we're trying to 10 work this out to figure out what has been 11 produced and in response to what. And 12 that's where I'm having sort of a little 13 problem. I can't conclude the deposition 14 because I don't know what's been produced in 15 response to this deposition notice. But 16 that's a fight you and Mary can have all day 17 long and... 18 MR. ELLISTON: Well, I do want the 19 record to be clear that we did not insist 20 upon the deposition going forward today, 21 that Baron & Budd certainly had the 22 opportunity to finish the fight, as you call 23 it, on the documents prior to starting the 24 deposition, and I would encourage you to be G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1 _020602.txt (162 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 162 1 mindful of the hourly limitation on the 2 deposition. And so if you want to reserve 3 time to review and discuss future documents, 4 that's certainly up to you. But I'm not 5 making any agreements concerning the 6 continuation of this deposition in light of 7 our status. 8 MR. NEMEROFF: And I will ask for 9 no agreements. I'm just being crystal clear 10 that it ain't over till it's over, and I'm 11 not considering this over until a judge 12 tells me it's completely over. And that's 13 fine. And that's something that Special 14 Master Kelton is dealing with, Judge Alvarez 15 is going to deal with, Judge Hunter is 16 dealing with and all the various courts, and 17 we'll cross those bridges when we get there. 18 Sorry about that, Mr. Riddar. 19 BY MR. NEMEROFF: 20 Q. Looking at what is marked as No. 14, it's 21 titled "Sullivan." I think the dates -22 what are the dates on this boiler when this 23 was built or drawn? 24 A. The date when this drawing was made is 1961. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1 _020602.txt (163 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 163 1 I can't make out the month. There were 2 several revisions made to the drawing, and 3 the last revision being 11/25/61. 4 Q. I just thought of something. When these 5 drawings were made, how -- first question, 6 how soon after the drawing is made and the 7 date is affixed to the drawing did the 8 boilers actually get built? 9 A I don't know. 10 Q Do you know that each one of these boilers 11 has been built? 12 A Yes. 13 Q How do you know that? 14 A They're supposedly out in the field. 15 Q Okay. You say "supposedly." Do you know 16 for a fact that each boiler drawn -- that 17 has been drawn in front of you has actually 18 been built and put into service? 19 A I have not seen them built. 20 Q So you don't have personal knowledge that 21 they actually got built? 22 A No, I don't. 23 Q Second thing, do changes occur in the 24 erection of a boiler that may not be G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (164 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 164 1 reflected on the drawing? 2 A. No, all the changes have to be reflected on 3 the drawing. 4 Q. So if there's a change made, you've got to 5 go back and redraw the whole boiler? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Talk to me about that, then. 8 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 9 Q. Tell me about - 10 MR. ELLISTON: Even your co-counsel 11 would sustain that objection, sir. 12 Q. Tell me about the process that you have to 13 undergo when a change is made to a boiler 14 between the drawing and the erection when 15 there's a change between the two. Where 16 would you find that reflected? 17 A. In the revision box on the drawing. 18 Q. Okay. Where would the revision box be? 19 A. Right here (indicating). 20 Q. Where's that? Is that the little box down 21 there? 22 MR. ELLISTON: (Indicating.) 23 MR. NEMEROFF: How about that? 24 There's a revision box down there, everyone. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (165 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 165 1 (Discussion off the record.) 2 Q. Okay. Did you draw any of these? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Who did? Can you tell that from looking at 5 this? 6 A. There are initials here that I'm not 7 familiar with. 8 Q. Were you -- did you personally go pull these 9 drawings out of the drawers and the 10 microfiche and observe them being pulled and 11 copied? 12 A. No. 13 Q. So how is it that we got from your 14 conversation with counsel to the production 15 of these drawings here today? 16 A. The records department produced them based 17 on the title on the drawing. 18 Q. Would you be able to tell me on this drawing 19 from Viola, Texas, the Suntide Refining 20 Company, would you be able to tell me on 21 this -- from this drawing alone how someone 22 would be exposed to asbestos from this 23 boiler? 24 A. They wouldn't be exposed to asbestos from G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (166 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 166 1 this boiler. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. It's a package boiler. It's completely 4 enclosed in a steel casing. 5 Q. And when we get to, say, the Lewis -- oh, 6 wait a second. This is an MH boiler, too? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Is there a records custodian at the records 9 department, someone who's in charge of that? 10 A. I don't know of anybody with the name of 11 records custodian. 12 Q. Who did you contact at the records 13 department to get these things pulled? 14 A. I contacted the paralegal people in 15 Worcester. 16 Q. And -17 A. They contacted the... 18 Q. So you contacted this law firm -19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And then they contacted the people in 21 Worcester? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Okay. Do you talk to Riley Stoker employees 24 yourself, or do you go through counsel to do G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (167 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 167 1 that? In making these requests and doing 2 all that you're doing, do you deal directly 3 with Riley Stoker employees now, or do you 4 deal with Riley Stoker's counsel for your 5 requests? 6 A Riley Stoker's counsel. 7 Q Okay. So this is a package boiler that I'm 8 looking at here (indicating)? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Okay. What's this (indicating)? Same 11 thing? 12 A That is a field-erected boiler. 13 Q Okay. Tell me where the change takes place. 14 Is that it (indicating)? Is that it? Is 15 that the first page of the field-erected? 16 Yeah, I think it is. So on this boiler, 17 which is Carbide & Carbon Chemical Company 18 in Seadrift, Texas, this is a field-erected 19 boiler? 20 A Yes, it is. 21 Q Would you be able to tell just from these 22 drawings alone where an individual would get 23 exposure to asbestos from this boiler? 24 A The entire boiler is covered, so there's no G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (168 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 168 1 exposure to asbestos. 2 Q. What do you mean, it's all covered? 3 A. It's covered with lagging. 4 Q. Metal lagging? 5 A. I believe it is 10-gauge steel casing. 6 Q. And that's after it's been erected it's 7 covered with -- is this a package boiler or 8 a field-erected boiler? 9 A. It's a field-erected boiler. 10 Q. During the erection of the boiler they have 11 to install the insulation, they have to do 12 all the things to build the boiler, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. During the installation and erection of this 15 boiler, would you be able to tell me all the 16 ways in which a person would be exposed to 17 asbestos when the erection of the boiler 18 took place? 19 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 20 A. If the insulation contained asbestos. I 21 don't know. 22 Q. And you don't know if it contained asbestos 23 or not? 24 A. No, I don't. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (169 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 169 1 Q. And for that I would have to talk to the 2 purchasing department or whoever erected the 3 boiler? 4 A. I don't know. 5 Q. Who erected this boiler? Could you tell 6 that? 7 A. It's not shown on the drawings. 8 Q. Is it typically shown on the drawings who 9 erected the boiler? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Where would it be reflected who erected the 12 boiler? 13 A. On what we call erection cards. 14 Q. The erection cards? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Where -- are those kept? 17 A. In Worcester. 18 Q. Along with the specifications? 19 A. What do you mean by "along"? 20 Q. "Along with," meaning you've got the -21 A. Together? 22 Q. Yeah, are they kept together? 23 A. No. 24 Q. So there's a separate place where the G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (170 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 170 1 erection information is kept separate from 2 the specifications, separate from the 3 drawings? 4 A Yes. 5 Q What other records for a boiler are kept in 6 Worcester pertaining to any particular 7 boiler? 8 A That's all I would be concerned about, the 9 drawings, specifications, if they're still 10 around. 11 Q Do you know if the erection data is kept in 12 the same completeness that you believe the 13 drawings are kept? 14 A No. 15 Q And you told me earlier that some of the 16 specification books are no longer in 17 existence for one reason or another; they're 18 not kept for every single boiler the same 19 way the drawings are? 20 A That's right. 21 Q So in some cases we may never be able to 22 determine the specifications or who erected 23 a boiler, but we still may have the line 24 drawings for the boiler itself? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (171 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 171 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Now, there's a library in Worcester, isn't 3 there, Riley Stoker, at the library? 4 A. I wouldn't go as far as calling it a 5 library. There is a collection of material 6 in the office. 7 Q. I'm going to -- in the past in your 8 deposition, Pages 32 and 33, you had talked 9 about sales brochures, and you checked with 10 the advertising department and the library 11 and that you checked out some Power -- or 12 you took out some Power Magazines. Some of 13 them you located in the library. I'm trying 14 to figure out what is in this thing -15 what's in this thing that you termed "the 16 library" a couple years ago? 17 A. Well, it's a collection of brochures, you 18 know, like magazines, and there are some 19 books, but "library" is a pretty complete -20 I probably shouldn't have referred to it as 21 a library the last time I mentioned it 22 because it's not what you would generally 23 find in a library. It's more brochures, and 24 there are books. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1 _020602.txt (172 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 172 1 Q. Well -- and, again, I'm not quarreling over 2 the term "library." You just used it 3 before, and I wanted to make sure I 4 understood it. 5 A Yes, I realize that. 6 Q Are there technical manuals and technical 7 journals that are kept there? 8 A Some. 9 Q So I guess it could be a library of sources. 10 It could be a very small library specific to 11 what Riley Stoker does. Would that be a 12 fair statement? 13 A Yes. 14 Q So you're not going to find wildlife books 15 and cooking books, but you would find Power 16 Magazine and Combustion Magazine and other 17 things relative to the business of Riley 18 Stoker? 19 A Pretty much, yes. 20 Q Were there any books on any -- any books on 21 safety or safety in the workplace in this 22 library? 23 A Not that I know of. 24 Q Any books on the subject of industrial G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (173 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 173 1 hygiene and safe industrial hygiene measures 2 in the library? 3 A. Not that I know. 4 Q. Anything to do with occupational diseases in 5 this library? 6 A. Not that I know of. 7 Q. Is there a person whose responsibility it is 8 to maintain this space? 9 A. Not that I know of. 10 Q. In some of the specifications I saw 11 asbestos -- I'm going to withdraw that. 12 I saw a reference to "insulation 13 blankets." Are you familiar with those? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Would those be asbestos-containing; do you 16 know? 17 A. I don't know. 18 Q. Were they purchased -- if you know, were 19 they purchased from another vendor, or were 20 they actually made at a Riley facility? 21 A. They were not made at Riley's. 22 (Pause.) 23 Q. In the package boilers that we've looked 24 at -- and you've said they were more or less G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (174 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 174 1 the same from package boiler to package 2 boiler -- they contained asbestos packing, 3 asbestos gaskets, asbestos millboard and 4 then other materials which you're not sure 5 whether or not they contained asbestos or 6 not. Would that be -- that's a fair 7 statement? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Would you agree with me, then, that Riley 10 Stoker's package boilers were products which 11 contained asbestos products as part of the 12 whole boiler? 13 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. So I guess another way to put it would be 16 Riley Stoker's package boiler with these 17 asbestos gaskets and packing and millboard, 18 while the boilers themselves are not all 19 asbestos, they are asbestos-containing 20 products? 21 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 22 A. Well, the boiler did contain asbestos, yes. 23 Q. Okay. And if the field-erected boilers had 24 asbestos used as part of them, gaskets, G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (175 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 175 1 packing, millboard, block, whatever it might 2 be, then they, too, would be -- while not 3 all asbestos, they, too, would be asbestos4 containing products under that scenario? 5 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 6 A Some part of the boiler contained asbestos. 7 Q So the boiler would be asbestos -- would be 8 asbestos-containing? It wouldn't be a full 9 asbestos product, it would be an asbestos10 containing product? 11 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 12 A Well, the boiler consists of many 13 components, you know. It's just not an 14 asbestos and asbestos-containing product. 15 It contained many other components. 16 Q But it was asbestos-containing to the extent 17 it had these asbestos parts in it? 18 A Asbestos insulation. 19 Q Or asbestos packing or gaskets or whatever? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Did you know any of the plant managers over 22 at the Erie facility? 23 A No. 24 Q How about the Cornwall Heights facility? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (176 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 176 1 A. No. 2 Q. How about the Southwestern facility? 3 A. No. 4 MR. NEMEROFF: Can we go off for a 5 second? 6 MR. ELLISTON: Sure. 7 (Discussion off the record.) 8 Q. Mr. Riddar, have you ever been a member of 9 any trade organization having to do with 10 boilers? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Are you a member of any association, 13 professional -- have you been a member of 14 any professional association in the past? 15 A. No, I have not. 16 Q. Are you familiar with the Industrial Hygiene 17 Foundation? 18 A. No, I'm not. 19 Q. How about the National Safety Council? 20 A. No, I'm not. 21 Q. Are you familiar with the American Ceramic 22 Society? 23 A. No, I'm not. 24 Q. How about the American Society of Mechanical G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (177 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 177 1 Engineers? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Were you a member of that? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Do you know if Riley Stoker was a member of 6 any of those organizations? 7 A. American Boilermakers Association. I've 8 seen a plaque. 9 Q. And were you at all involved in the 10 compilation of documents -- well, I'm not 11 going to ask you -- hold on one second. I'm 12 going to withdraw that. 13 (Discussion off the record.) 14 MR. NEMEROFF: Okay. I'm going to 15 mark this as No. 16. 16 Q. I'm just going to show you what I'm going to 17 mark as Exhibit No. 16 and ask you if you 18 have any idea what that is. Sir, that's 19 No. 16. Do you know what that is? 20 A. I have no idea. 21 (Discussion off the record.) 22 (Documents marked as Exhibits 13 23 through 16 for identification.) 24 MR. ELLISTON: Let's get on the G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (178 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 178 1 record real quick, and let me say during the 2 break off the record we corrected some 3 numbers on the exhibits, and there will be a 4 reference earlier in the transcript to an 5 Exhibit 12 as being all of the drawings. We 6 have decided to leave Exhibit No. 12 blank, 7 and the drawings are now separately marked 8 as 13, 14 and 15. Agreed? 9 MR. NEMEROFF: Agreed. 10 (Discussion off the record.) 11 Q. Mr. Riddar, am I correct that Riley 12 Stoker -- withdraw that. 13 Am I correct, sir, that you have said 14 in the past that Riley Stoker stopped using 15 asbestos insulation products in or around 16 the early 1970s because they were no -17 Riley Stoker was no longer able to purchase 18 them in light of the OSHA regulations? 19 A. Did I say that? 20 Q. I think you did. 21 (Discussion off the record.) 22 Q. Right. In 19 -- okay. "In 1970 Riley 23 Stoker stopped using asbestos-containing 24 insulation on its boilers?" And your answer G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1 _020602.txt (179 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 179 1 was: 2 "You couldn't buy insulation with 3 asbestos on it." The question is: 4 "So that's when Riley Stoker 5 stopped using asbestos-containing 6 insulation?" And your answer was: 7 "Yes." 8 Did I get that right? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And at no time in the history of your time 11 with Riley Stoker did Riley Stoker ever 12 place any warning on any of its boilers 13 having to do with asbestos exposure; is that 14 correct? 15 A I don't know that. 16 Q Okay. And you have no knowledge as you sit 17 here today that they ever did? 18 A I don't know. 19 Q And do you have any knowledge about Riley 20 Stoker -- withdraw that. 21 And, sir, would you agree with me that 22 Riley Stoker never sent out any warnings to 23 its customers having to do with asbestos 24 insulation being hazardous? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (180 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 180 1 A. I don't know. 2 MR. NEMEROFF: All right, sir. I 3 think subject to the Court's ruling on the 4 subpoena duces tecum, which it is an ongoing 5 discussion, to be polite to all sides, those 6 are all the questions I have for you today. 7 I might have more depending upon what the 8 judge rules and what other production takes 9 place, but subject to that I think I'm done. 10 MR. ELLISTON: I do have some 11 questions. Do you want to stand up and take 12 a short break? 13 THE WITNESS: Sure 14 MR. ELLISTON: Why don't we take a 15 short break. 16 (Recess taken.) 17 18 CROSS EXAMINATION 19 20 BY MR. ELLISTON: 21 Q. Mr. Riddar, as you know , my name is Gary 22 Elliston, and I have just a few questions 23 for you. What is your date of birth, sir? 24 A. August 26th, 1924. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (181 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 181 1 Q. What age gentleman are you now? 2 A. 77. 3 Q. You mentioned that you got an associate's 4 degree in mechanical engineering. What year 5 did you receive that degree? 6 A. 1955. 7 Q. When did you go to work for Riley Stoker? 8 A. 1953. 9 Q. If you would, sir, would you briefly go 10 through the jobs that you held at Riley 11 Stoker until your retirement. 12 A. In 1953 I started as a trainee draftsman, 13 moved up to a qualified draftsman after that 14 training and advanced to what we call a 15 drawing checker, checking other people's 16 work, drawings, became a pressure parts 17 designer where I designed pressure parts 18 according -- in compliance with the ASME 19 power boiler code. From there I went to 20 group leader in the industrial boiler 21 division. Later on I was group leader for 22 the utility boilers, became assistant to the 23 manager of the, what was then called the 24 boiler drafting department and advanced to G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (182 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 182 1 manager of the design graphics department, 2 and two years before I retired I was made 3 chief draftsman. 4 Q. What year did you retire? 5 A. In 1989. 6 Q. Were you age 65 at that time? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Since your retirement, have you worked as a 9 consultant at Riley Stoker? 10 A. Yes, I have. 11 Q. Have you worked as a consultant at Riley 12 Stoker on various engineering projects, as 13 well as reviewing drawings for boilers? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. So you've been retired now for approximately 16 12 1/2 years? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. And you worked at Riley Stoker for 19 approximately 36 years? 20 A. 36 years. 21 Q. Did Riley Stoker ever mine raw asbestos? 22 MR. NEMEROFF: Objection. 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did Riley Stoker ever mill raw asbestos? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (183 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 183 1 A. No. 2 MR. NEMEROFF: Objection. 3 Q. Did Riley Stoker ever use raw asbestos in 4 the manufacture of any products? 5 A. No. 6 MR. NEMEROFF: Objection. 7 Q. Did Riley Stoker manufacture, design or 8 market an asbestos-containing block, cement 9 or pipe covering? 10 MR. NEMEROFF: Objection. 11 A. No. 12 Q. Did Riley Stoker ever manufacture, design or 13 market an asbestos-containing spray or 14 fireproofing? 15 A. No. 16 MR. NEMEROFF: Objection. 17 Q. Did Riley Stoker ever manufacture, design or 18 market an asbestos-containing joint 19 compound, plaster or wallboard? 20 MR. NEMEROFF: Objection. 21 A. No. 22 Q. Did Riley Stoker ever manufacture, design or 23 market asbestos-containing breaks, clutches 24 or friction products? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (184 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 184 1 MR. NEMEROFF: Objection. 2 A. No. 3 Q. Did Riley Stoker ever manufacture, design or 4 market gaskets, rope or packing? 5 A. No. 6 MR. NEMEROFF: Objection. 7 Q. What was Riley Stoker's business during the 8 years you were employed with them? 9 A. Manufacture and construction of boiler and 10 boiler equipment. 11 Q. Did Riley Stoker, to your knowledge, ever 12 purchase raw asbestos and put it into any 13 kind of product? 14 A. No. 15 MR. NEMEROFF: Objection. 16 Q. When Riley Stoker would build or erect 17 boilers, would they from time to time 18 purchase asbestos-containing gaskets or 19 packing for use in that building or 20 construction of boilers? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Were all of the gaskets and packing used on 23 Riley Stoker boilers asbestos-containing? 24 A. I'm not sure. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (185 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 185 1 Q. Was all of the calcium silicate used on the 2 piping around some of the Riley Stoker 3 equipment? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Was all of that calcium silicate that was 6 used on that piping around some of the 7 equipment asbestos-containing? 8 A. I don't know. 9 Q. You mentioned aftermarket as one of the 10 reasons that Riley Stoker kept some of the 11 drawings. If some of the equipment in the 12 field needed a replacement gasket or rope, 13 would Riley Stoker supply that replacement 14 gasket or rope or packing? 15 A. No. 16 Q. The package boilers, they were actually 17 constructed at the Riley Stoker facility in 18 Erie? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Once the Riley Stoker package boiler was 21 shipped, was there any reason for a worker 22 to be exposed to asbestos during the 23 installation of that package boiler? 24 A. No. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (186 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 186 1 MR. NEMEROFF: Objection. 2 Q. Was -- or were all of the asbestos3 containing components of the package boiler 4 covered at the time they left Riley Stoker? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Did Riley Stoker manufacture or market 7 boilers or equipment for maritime purposes? 8 A. No. 9 Q. By that I mean for use onboard ships? 10 A. No. 11 Q. You mentioned a number of individuals who 12 were erectors. What would an erector do? 13 A. He would be in charge of the erection of 14 that boiler. He would hire the people to 15 work on the boiler and manage the size of 16 the work force. 17 Q. For these boilers that were field-erected, 18 would some of those be erected by the 19 customer and some erected by Riley Stoker 20 pursuant to a contract? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. When Riley Stoker would be responsible for 23 the erection, would they send a crew of 24 workers from Worcester, or would they just G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (187 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 187 1 hire people locally to work with the 2 erector? 3 MR. NEMEROFF: Objection. 4 A. The people were hired locally. 5 Q. Are you aware, sir, of any individual who 6 worked at the Riley Stoker equipment 7 manufacturing facilities who developed an 8 asbestos-related disease? 9 A. No. 10 MR. NEMEROFF: Objection. 11 Q. Of all the workers that did work 12 constructing package boilers for Riley 13 Stoker, do you know of any of those 14 individuals who have developed an asbestos15 related condition? 16 MR. NEMEROFF: Objection. 17 A. Not that I know of. 18 Q. Was it ever your job, sir, to serve on any 19 of the erection crews? 20 A. No. 21 Q. What type of companies would generally be 22 the purchasers of boilers or other equipment 23 from Riley Stoker? 24 A. The utility companies, refineries, the G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (188 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 188 1 papermaking industry. Those would probably 2 be the main customers. 3 Q. The purchasers of equipment from Riley 4 Stoker, would they tend to be larger, more 5 sophisticated companies? 6 MR. NEMEROFF: Objection. Calls 7 for speculation. 8 A. Would you repeat that? 9 Q. Sure. The customers who would purchase 10 boilers and related equipment from Riley 11 Stoker, would they tend to be larger, more 12 sophisticated-type companies? 13 MR. NEMEROFF: Objection. Calls 14 for speculation. Calls for a conclusion 15 that he's certainly not qualified to render. 16 A. Yes, there were large utility companies. 17 MR. ELLISTON: I need to place an 18 objection to the argument on the record. 19 Now you can answer the question. 20 MR. NEMEROFF: Counsel, you're 21 doing a direct examination right now which 22 basically means we're - 23 A. We had some big customers, utility 24 companies. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (189 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 189 1 MR. NEMEROFF: (Unintelligible.) 2 THE REPORTER: You need to repeat 3 that. 4 MR. NEMEROFF: I'm sorry, I was 5 talking to him (indicating). 6 BY MR. ELLISTON: 7 Q. I need to go back and ask you the question 8 because with the discussion by counsel I'm 9 not sure it's clear. Let me ask the 10 question again. 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. The customers that purchased boilers and 13 related equipment from Riley Stoker, did 14 they tend to be larger, more sophisticated 15 companies? 16 MR. NEMEROFF: Objection. 17 A. There were sophisticated companies, yes, and 18 there were some they were not as 19 sophisticated companies. 20 Q. The boilers once they were installed, would 21 they generate or create dust during normal 22 operation? 23 A. No, not that I know of. 24 MR. NEMEROFF: Objection. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (190 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 190 1 Q. When was Riley Stoker incorporated, sir? 2 A. 1925, I believe. 3 Q. When did Riley Stoker first open its doors 4 and begin operation? 5 A. Riley Stoker opened its doors in 1913 as a 6 stoker, as a builder of stokers. 7 Q. When did Riley Stoker first begin to 8 manufacture boilers? 9 A. When? In 1931 when they purchased the Baden 10 Hausen Corporation. Up to that point they 11 were all stokers. 12 Q. Sir, when the equipment is being erected in 13 the field, at what point during the 14 construction or erection process is the 15 insulation generally applied? 16 MR. NEMEROFF: Objection. Calls 17 for speculation. He's never seen it. No 18 foundation. 19 MR. ELLISTON: Excuse me. I object 20 to the argument of counsel on the record. 21 He's going beyond legal objections which he 22 knows is inappropriate. 23 Q. Now, answer the question, sir. 24 A. The insulation was applied last. When the G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (191 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 191 1 boiler was built, it was the last item to... 2 Q. Sir, you indicated in your testimony that 3 Riley Stoker would use high temperature 4 block in connection with some of the 5 boilers. Do you know, sir, whether all of 6 that high temperature block contained 7 asbestos? 8 A. I don't know. 9 Q. You were also asked about various parts of 10 the boiler. Approximately how many parts or 11 components would a boiler have? 12 A. Hundreds, if not thousands. 13 Q. As part of your drawings and specifications 14 for a boiler, would you specify the brand of 15 insulation to be used? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Okay. Sir, I want to take you back to a few 18 of the exhibits that you were questioned 19 about, and let's start with Exhibit No. 6, 20 which appears to be some documents related 21 to a claim by Mr. Moreno. Have you seen 22 Exhibit 6 before today? 23 A. No, I have not. 24 Q. You were asked questions about the award G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (192 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 192 1 made in that case, and you were asked to 2 read a paragraph from that document. Do you 3 recall that, sir? 4 A. Yes, I do. 5 Q. And would you simply read to yourself the 6 award referenced on that page. 7 A. Sure. (Witness complies.) 8 Q. Okay. Have you completed reading the award 9 section? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. From your review of that award section did 12 you see any reference to an award being made 13 against Riley Stoker? 14 A. I did not. 15 Q. Let's turn back in that same document to 16 Paragraph 2B. Read that Paragraph 2B to 17 yourself, please. 18 A. (Witness complies.) 19 Q. Are you completed? 20 A. Yeah, this paragraph (indicating). 21 Q. Does Paragraph 2B indicate that Mr. Moreno 22 worked for Riley Stoker for a period of 31 23 days? 24 A. Yes. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (193 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 193 1 Q. Would you read Paragraph 5 from that same 2 document, sir. 3 A. Yes. (Witness complies.) 4 Yes. 5 Q. Does Paragraph 5, sir, indicate that the 6 claim against the defendants listed in 7 Paragraph 2 was barred? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And does Paragraph 2 include Riley Stoker? 10 A. I would suppose so. 11 MR. NEMEROFF: Objection. 12 Q. Does Paragraph 2B reference Riley Stoker 13 Corporation? 14 A. Yes, it does. 15 MR. NEMEROFF: Objection. 16 Q. From your review of that document, sir, did 17 you see any information concerning the 18 levels of exposure that Mr. Moreno had at 19 any time on any job? 20 MR. NEMEROFF: Objection. 21 A. I did not. 22 Q. Did you see any information in Exhibit 6, 23 sir, concerning whether Mr. Moreno was even 24 exposed to asbestos on his job with Riley G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (194 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 194 1 Stoker? 2 MR. NEMEROFF: Objection. 3 A. I did not. 4 Q. Did you see, sir, in the award section of 5 Exhibit No. 6 that an award was actually 6 made against another company? 7 MR. NEMEROFF: Objection. 8 (Discussion off the record.) 9 A. No. Or did I read the wrong paragraph here? 10 I didn't read that one. 11 Q. Did you see language, sir, in the award 12 paragraph that an award was made in favor of 13 Mr. Moreno against a specific employer 's 14 insurance company? 15 MR. NEMEROFF: Objection. 16 A. Yes. I read the wrong paragraph. 17 Q. Does that document, from your review, sir, 18 make any reference to the type of work that 19 Mr. Moreno did on boilers? 20 MR. NEMEROFF: Objection. 21 A. I haven't seen it, but I haven't read this 22 whole... 23 Q. Okay. Have you ever met Mr. Moreno? 24 A. No, I have not. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (195 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 195 1 Q. Do you know anything at all about Mr. 2 Moreno -3 A. No. 4 Q. -- other than what you read in Exhibit 6? 5 A. No, I don't, besides just what I see here. 6 Q. Looking at Exhibit 8, there is the -- one of 7 the documents there refers to Mr. Lewis 8 Munger; is that correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did you know Mr. Munger? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Do you know anything at all about Mr. 13 Munger? 14 A. No, I don't. 15 Q. From Exhibit No. 8, is there an indication, 16 sir, as to the amount of time and time 17 period that Mr. Munger worked for Riley 18 Stoker? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And would that period be, according to 21 Exhibit 8, June 9, 1952 through August 15, 22 1952? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Have you seen any information, sir, or did G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (196 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 196 1 you see any information in Exhibit No. 7 or 2 8 about the levels of exposure to dust that 3 Mr. Munger would have had on any job he had 4 with Riley Stoker between June 9, 1952 and 5 August 15, 1952? 6 A. No, I did not. 7 MR. NEMEROFF: Objection. 8 Q. From the review of Exhibit No. 7, sir, are 9 there six other employers listed? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What would you consider to be the primary 12 components of a boiler? 13 A. Pressure parts. 14 Q. What do you mean by "pressure parts"? 15 A. Pressure-containing vessels like tubes, 16 headers, drums, piping. 17 Q. What is the job of a boiler? 18 A. To generate steam. 19 Q. Is the insulation on the boiler necessary 20 for it to do its job, or is it to -- well, 21 strike that. Let me ask that a little 22 differently. 23 When you're designing a boiler, is it 24 important to you to determine the type of G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (197 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 197 1 insulation other than whether it will meet 2 certain temperatures? 3 A. Yes. The insulation serves two purposes. 4 We had to think of the efficiency of a 5 boiler. If you let the heat escape, it's 6 not going to be very efficient. Secondly, 7 it also serves as personnel protection. 8 Q. When you say "personnel protection," you 9 mean to protect people that may be around it 10 from getting burned? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And the other purpose was to keep the heat 13 in; is that correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. So as long as the insulation would do those 16 two things, it didn't matter to you whether 17 it contained asbestos or not; is that 18 correct? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. When the boilers were erected in the field, 21 would Riley Stoker sometimes purchase the 22 insulation to be placed on it and sometimes 23 the purchaser would actually purchase the 24 insulation? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (198 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 198 1 MR. NEMEROFF: Objection. 2 A. Riley Stoker would generally purchase the 3 insulation, but they would sublet the 4 insulation and sometimes be able to specify 5 the quantities, and there would be a 6 subcontract put out for bid. 7 Q. Let me make sure I understand that. 8 MR. NEMEROFF: Objection, leading. 9 MR. ELLISTON: I'll withdraw that. 10 Q. In a situation where Riley Stoker was not 11 going to do the erection itself, would Riley 12 Stoker purchase the insulation, or would the 13 erection company purchase the insulation? 14 MR. NEMEROFF: Objection. 15 A. Sometimes it could either be Riley Stoker or 16 it could be the insulation contractor that 17 bought the insulation. 18 Q. In situations where a Riley Stoker erector 19 was going to be on the job, would Riley 20 Stoker sometimes purchase the insulation, 21 and sometimes the customer would purchase 22 it? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Earlier in your testimony you were looking G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (199 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 199 1 at some drawings for a package boiler, and 2 there was some discussion of asbestos 3 millboard. Would that asbestos millboard be 4 completely covered by metal lagging or a 5 metal covering? 6 MR. NEMEROFF: Objection. 7 A. Yes, steel casing. 8 Q. When you were specifying gaskets or packing 9 for the equipment, would you specify 10 asbestos-containing gaskets, or would you 11 specify gaskets that would take care of a 12 certain temperature? 13 A. For manholes and handholds it would be 14 specified on the drawings by size. As an 15 example, handholds would be specified as 16 3 1/2 by 4 1/2 handhold gaskets. The 17 manhole gaskets would be specified as 18 12-inch by 16-inch manhole gaskets. 19 Q. As a result of your 36 years' experience at 20 Riley Stoker, did you consider Riley Stoker 21 to be a safety-conscious company? 22 A. I certainly would. 23 MR. ELLISTON: I'll pass the 24 witness. Thank you, sir G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1 _020602.txt (200 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 200 1 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 2 3 BY MR. NEMEROFF: 4 Q. Mr. Riddar, if I understood your testimony 5 earlier today, I asked you why you were 6 here, and you told us you were the person 7 with -- that you're going to testify 8 concerning the use of asbestos. Do you 9 remember that? Do you recall giving us that 10 testimony earlier today? 11 A. Yes. It's on the record, I suppose. 12 Q. Okay. So if you're the person that Riley 13 Stoker designated to talk about asbestos, I 14 want to ask you some questions about 15 asbestos. Can you please tell the jury the 16 different types of asbestos that there are? 17 A. I don't know. 18 Q. Well, how about tell us the types of 19 asbestos-containing products that existed in 20 the world in the 1950s or 1960s. 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. How about the name brands of some of the 23 asbestos-containing products from the 1950s 24 or '60s or '70s? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (201 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 201 1 A. I don't know. 2 Q. Who was the biggest supplier of asbestos in 3 the 1950s, '60s or '70s? 4 A. I don't know. 5 Q. How about this: Block insulation is 6 something that's at issue in this case. Why 7 don't you tell the jury all the different 8 types of asbestos-containing block 9 insulation that was available to be 10 purchased in the 1950s '60s and '70s? 11 A. I don't know. 12 Q. How about calcium silicate; can you identify 13 for this jury the name brand of one 14 manufacturer or brand name of calcium 15 silicate? 16 A. We specified on the drawings calcium 17 silicate insulation. That's what took place 18 in that engineering department. 19 MR. NEMEROFF: Objection. Move to 20 strike. 21 Q. Sir, my question was very simple. Can you 22 please identify by name one company that 23 made calcium silicate? Tell me the name 24 brand since you're the person Riley Stoker G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (202 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 202 1 designated to talk about asbestos use. 2 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 3 Q Give me the name of a calcium silicate 4 manufacturer. Can you do that? 5 A I believe that most of the insulation 6 manufacturers made calcium silicate 7 insulation. 8 Q Can you identify - 9 A Pipe insulation. 10 Q Can you tell me the name, the brand name of 11 one type of calcium silicate since you are 12 Riley Stoker's choice to talk about asbestos 13 products here? 14 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 15 A Philip Carey. 16 Q Thank you. Any others? 17 A No. 18 Q You were asked questions about whether or 19 not an individual would have exposure to 20 asbestos when a boiler would be used, and I 21 would like to know, sir, what is your 22 training in industrial hygiene? 23 A None. 24 Q What is your training in taking air samples? G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (203 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 203 1 A None. 2 Q What is your training in determining dust 3 release from a product that has asbestos in 4 it? 5 A None. 6 Q Please tell us all the tests that you have 7 personally done on asbestos-containing 8 products that allow you to draw any 9 conclusion about asbestos dust being 10 released? 11 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 12 A Have I drawn conclusions? I have not drawn 13 conclusions. 14 Q Have you done any tests to draw conclusions? 15 A No. 16 Q Can you please share with us any documents 17 that you have seen on Riley Stoker 18 letterhead that show testing was done on 19 asbestos-containing products to show how 20 much dust would be released when products 21 were used. 22 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 23 A I haven't seen any. 24 Q Can you please share with this jury how much G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (204 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 204 1 asbestos dust one would find in the air even 2 if you can't see the dust visibly? 3 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 4 A I have no idea. 5 Q You were asked questions about whether or 6 not anyone you knew at the manufacturing 7 facilities of Riley Stoker ever got 8 asbestosis, and you told us you didn't know 9 any; is that right? 10 A That's right. 11 Q But you also weren't shown the documents of 12 Mr. Munger and Mr. Moreno until today; isn't 13 that right? 14 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 15 Q Isn't that correct? Until today you had 16 never seen the claims against Riley Stoker 17 made by Mr. Munger or Mr. Moreno? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q So you don't know if there's one other, five 20 other, 10 other or 100 other claims that you 21 haven't been shown yet; isn't that correct? 22 MR. ELLISTON: Objection - 23 A I don't know. 24 MR. ELLISTON: Please. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (205 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 205 1 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 2 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 3 Q. You were asked questions about the erection 4 of boilers, and I want the jury to be clear. 5 Can you please tell this jury how many 6 boilers you personally helped erect? 7 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 8 A. I can't recall. 9 Q. Have you actually erected boilers? 10 A. No, I have not. 11 Q. So when you were asked questions about the 12 erection of boilers, you're not basing that 13 upon personal experience, you're basing that 14 upon what people told you; is that correct? 15 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 16 Q. Is that correct? 17 A. I have never personally erected a boiler, 18 yes, that is correct. 19 Q. Therefore, I'm asking, is it that you are 20 basing your conclusions about how boilers 21 are erected from what others have told you? 22 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 23 A. The boilers are erected from the drawings 24 that we made in the engineering department. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (206 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 206 1 Q. I understand that. I'm talking about the 2 actual construction on the construction 3 project itself. You've never done that, 4 right? 5 A. No. 6 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 7 Slow down. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 Q. And have you been on-site when boilers are 10 erected? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. How many times? 13 A. I can't recall. 14 Q. One or two? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Three or four? 17 A. Yes. 18 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 19 Q. Five? 20 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 21 A. I can't recall. 22 Q. So we know it's as much as four, but we're 23 not sure if it's five or more? 24 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (207 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 207 1 A Correct. 2 Q And that's over 30-some-odd years of working 3 for Riley Stoker? 4 A I've worked in the engineering department of 5 Riley Stoker. 6 Q Fair enough. And as part of working in the 7 engineering department, your job was to sit 8 in a room, draw out the line drawings for 9 the construction of a boiler, pass those on 10 to others who would then build the boilers; 11 is that a fair statement? 12 A Yes. 13 Q You didn't purchase the asbestos for use on 14 a boiler, did you? 15 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 16 A No, I did not. 17 Q And you weren't involved in telling anyone 18 which asbestos products to purchase for a 19 boiler construction; isn't that true? 20 A I thought I had told you previously how we 21 specified the insulation. 22 Q I understand that. 23 A We purchased it. 24 Q I understand that, sir, but I want to be G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (208 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 208 1 clear, since we had some questions from your 2 counsel, that you were not involved in the 3 purchase of asbestos-containing products for 4 use in constructing boilers; isn't that 5 correct? 6 A That's correct. 7 Q And you didn't specify a particular type or 8 brand of asbestos-containing product to be 9 used on a boiler; isn't that correct? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q And, again, your job was to draw diagrams 12 that would then turn into the boilers out in 13 the field; is that right? 14 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 15 A Yes, the drawings were used in the 16 construction of the boiler. 17 Q If you had to estimate how much time you 18 spent in the office drawing versus out of 19 the office observing the construction of 20 boilers, could you do that for us? 21 A In what terms? 22 Q Well, would 99 percent of your time have 23 been spent drawing the diagrams like we've 24 seen here today and a very small percentage G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (209 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 209 1 being out in the field or somewhere - 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. That's about right? 4 A. (No verbal response.) 5 Q. And, sir, at any given time -- withdraw 6 that. 7 And in 1972, sir, when you discovered 8 by chance that OSHA was regulating asbestos, 9 you didn't tell anybody at Riley Stoker 10 about that, did you? 11 A. I can't recall. 12 Q. Sir, would you agree with me that Riley 13 Stoker manufactured, designed and marketed 14 boilers with asbestos as a component part? 15 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 16 A. We designed, manufactured and erected 17 boilers. 18 Q. Sir, am I correct that Riley Stoker 19 manufactured, designed and marketed boilers 20 with asbestos as a component part? 21 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 22 A. They were not part of the components in the 23 boiler. In the case of field-erected 24 boilers, the insulation was supplied in the G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (210 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 210 1 field. 2 Q Any gaskets? Were they not marketed to be 3 erected in the field and to have insulation 4 of which asbestos gaskets would be a part? 5 A They were not part of the boiler. They were 6 applied in the field. 7 Q Let me break it down, then. Did Riley 8 Stoker manufacture boilers with asbestos as 9 a component part? 10 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 11 A We have just gone through the MH boiler, 12 which was a shop-fabricated boiler. 13 Q So when it comes to package boilers, Riley 14 Stoker, in fact, manufactured, designed and 15 sold boilers with asbestos as a component 16 part? 17 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 18 A They sold boilers with insulation on them. 19 Q Including asbestos gaskets, asbestos 20 millboard and other asbestos products? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And for the field-erected boilers, at 23 times -- and I think you testified earlier, 24 a fair amount of times when Riley Stoker G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (211 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 211 1 field-erected boilers, they would, through 2 purchasing, bring asbestos-containing 3 products to the job site, including 4 insulation, and install them there; is that 5 correct? 6 A Sometimes. 7 Q You were asked questions about calcium 8 silicate and whether or not you knew if it 9 was asbestos-containing or not. When we 10 look at Exhibit No. 10, Mr. Mencow stated, 11 quote, "Calcium silicate insulation does," 12 and he underlined it, "contain asbestos 13 fiber. I believe this is factual regardless 14 of manufacturer or trade name," closed 15 quote. 16 Did I read that correctly? 17 A Yes. 18 Q But you, the Riley Stoker person designated 19 to talk about asbestos use, you don't know 20 what's in calcium silicate? 21 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 22 A This is the first time I've seen this - 23 Q How many documents -24 A -- memo. G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (212 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 212 1 Q. I'm sorry. How many documents has Riley 2 Stoker shown you prior to today's deposition 3 to get you ready to testify here? 4 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, 5 privileged. I instruct you not to answer. 6 MR. NEMEROFF: I'll withdraw that 7 question. 8 Q. Sir, have you seen any of the documents that 9 I showed you today before today? 10 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 11 A No. 12 Q This is the first time? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And you gave your first deposition for Riley 15 Stoker in the context of asbestos cases in 16 1995, some six years ago; is that correct? 17 Is that right? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And with respect to Mr. Munger and Mr. 20 Moreno, whether or not awards were paid, 21 whether or not Riley Stoker was found 22 responsible, whether or not -- whatever 23 conclusions are drawn, in 1948 Riley Stoker 24 was brought into a case by a worker claiming G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (213 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 213 1 exposure to asbestos and an asbestos disease 2 as a result; isn't that true? 3 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 4 Q That's what he claimed? 5 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 6 A I don't know anything about the case except 7 what I've seen here (indicating). 8 Q And from what you've seen here, we've both 9 asked you questions about it, it seems that 10 Mr. Moreno in 1948 got an asbestos-related 11 disease from exposure to asbestos dust - 12 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 13 Q -- is that right? 14 A Did it say that? 15 Q Would you like to take another shot at 16 reading it? 17 A Yes, I would. 18 Q It's the first paragraph of the award. 19 (Witness reviews document.) 20 A Now would you re - 21 Q And my question is, regardless of what award 22 or conclusions were drawn, Mr. Moreno 23 brought a claim against a number of 24 companies for his injury that he claimed G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (214 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 214 1 asbestosis as a result of breathing in 2 asbestos dust; isn't that correct? 3 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 4 A. Riley Stoker -- I'm here to answer on behalf 5 of Riley Stoker. I don't see him having 6 inhaled Riley Stoker asbestos. 7 Q. But clearly if the question is when would 8 somebody know that breathing in asbestos 9 dust can cause asbestosis, by 1948 when 10 Riley Stoker got that claim, that would have 11 been the first indication that that could be 12 a problem. 13 MR. ELLISTON: Objection, form. 14 A. I didn't know about it. I didn't work at 15 Riley Stoker in 1948. 16 Q. Fair enough, sir. 17 MR. NEMEROFF: That's all I have 18 for you. Thank you. 19 MR. ELLISTON: We're done. 20 (Whereupon the deposition was 21 adjourned at 4:50 p.m.) 22 23 24 G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1 _020602.txt (215 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 215 1 ATTACH TO THE DEPOSITION OF HAROLD Z. RIDDAR CASE: BURTON -VS- U.S. GYPSUM 2 AND RELATED CASES 3 ERRATA SHEET 4 INSTRUCTIONS: After reading the transcript of your deposition, note any change or 5 correction to your testimony and the reason therefor on this sheet. DO NOT make any 6 marks or notations on the transcript volume itself. Sign and date this errata sheet 7 (before a Notary Public, if required). Refer to Page 217 of the transcript for 8 errata sheet distribution instructions. 9 PAGE LINE _____ CHANGE: 10 REASON: _____ CHANGE: 11 REASON: _____ CHANGE: 12 REASON: _____ CHANGE: 13 REASON: _____ CHANGE: 14 REASON: _____ CHANGE: 15 REASON: _____ CHANGE: 16 REASON: _____ CHANGE: 17 REASON: _____ CHANGE: 18 REASON: _____ CHANGE: 19 REASON: 20 I have read the foregoing transcript 21 of my deposition and except for any corrections or changes noted above, I hereby 22 subscribe to the transcript as an accurate record of the statements made by me. 23 24 HAROLD Z. RIDDAR DATE G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt (216 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 216 1 In the District Court 2 298th Judicial District 3 I, Jessica L. Williamson, Registered, 4 Professional Reporter, Certified Realtime 5 Reporter and Notary Public in and for the 6 Commonwealth of Massachusetts, do hereby 7 certify that HAROLD Z. RIDDAR, the witness 8 whose deposition is hereinbefore set forth, 9 was duly sworn by me and that such 10 deposition is a true record of the testimony 11 given by the witness. 12 I further certify that I am neither 13 related to or employed by any of the parties 14 in or counsel to this action, nor am I 15 financially interested in the outcome of 16 this action. 17 In witness whereof, I have hereunto set 18 my hand and seal this 18th day of February, 19 2002. 20 21 22 Jessica L. Williamson, RPR, CRR 23 Notary Public, CSR No. 138795 24 My commission expires: 12/27/2002 G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1 _020602.txt (217 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM] file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1_020602.txt 217 1 DEPONENT'S ERRATA SHEET 2 AND SIGNATURE INSTRUCTIONS 3 4 The original of the Errata Sheet has 5 been delivered to Gary D. Elliston, Esq. 6 When the Errata Sheet has been 7 completed by the deponent and signed, a copy 8 thereof should be delivered to each party of 9 record and the ORIGINAL delivered to Richard 10 I. Nemeroff, Esq. to whom the original 11 deposition transcript was delivered. 12 13 INSTRUCTIONS TO DEPONENT 14 15 After reading this volume of your deposition, indicate any corrections or 16 changes to your testimony and the reasons therefor on the Errata Sheet supplied to you 17 and sign it. DO NOT make marks or notations on the transcript volume itself. 18 REPLACE THIS PAGE OF THE TRANSCRIPT WITH THE 19 COMPLETED AND SIGNED ERRATA SHEET WHEN 20 RECEIVED. 21 22 23 24 G & M COURT REPORTERS & ASSOCIATES (617) 338-0030 file:///J|/Imports/riddarh1 _020602.txt (218 of 218) [4/5/2002 3:01:33 PM]