Document 3QpEewem5701npoExmbRQ7QgD

\ IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OP WEST VIRGINIA CHARLESTON, WEST VIRGINIA JAMES M. ADKINS, Administrator of the Estate of Ralph E. Adkins, Deceased, et al, Plaintiffs, vs, MONSANTO COMPANY, a Delaware Corporation, Defendant. ) ) ) ) ) ) ) No. 81-2098 ) ) ) ) ) Deposition of HENRY J. HORNER taken on behalf of the plaintiffs. Reporter: M. Joy Springer J ames M ay R epo rtin g S ervic e CERTIFIED SH O R TH A N D REPORTERS R.R. 2 BOX 65 EDWARDSVILLE. ILLIN O IS 62025 '1 1 1- s *1821 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF WEST VIRGINIA CHARLESTON, WEST VIRGINIA JAMES M. ADKINS, Administrator of the Estate of Ralph E. Adkins, Deceased, et al, Plaintiffs, VS . MONSANTO COMPANY, a Delaware Corporation, Defendant. ). ) ) ) ) ) ) No. Bl-2098 ) ) ) ) ) -. APPEARANCES: Messrs. Calwell, McCormick & Peyton, by W. Stuart Calwell, Jr., Esc., Messrs. Bowles, McDavid, Graff & Love, by Ms. Deborah A. Sink, Thomas E. Scarr, Esq., Charles M. Love,. Ill, Esq., For the Plaintiffs; For the Defendant. IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by and between counsel for the plaintiffs and counsel for the defendant that the deposition of HENRY J. HORNER may be taken pursuant to Rule 26(a) of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, on behalf of the plaintiffs, on July 8, 1983, at the Radisson Hotel, Room 215, 9th Street and Convention Plaza, St. Louis, Missouri, before M. JOY SPRINGER, a Notary Public within and JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE ) * * 1 J2 k 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 , ) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ' 25 for the County of Madison, State of Illinois; that the Issuance of notice and dedimus Is waived, and that this deposition nay be taken with the sane force and effect as If all Federal rules and statutory requirements had been complied with. IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that any and all objections to all or any part of this deposition except objections as to form of the questions asked or answers given, are hereby reserved and may be raised on the trial of this cause; and that the signature of the deponent is not waived. HENRY J . HORNER produced, sworn and examined on behalf of the plaintiffs, deposes and says as follows: EXAMINATION BY MR. CALWELL: (Whereupon the reporter marked for the purposes of identification Plaintiff's Exhibit #29*i ( M o n s a n t o 's I.D. *232553). _ Q Mr. Horner, would you.state your name, please? 1 1 JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE O ( .J fc - / 1 A- Henry J. Horner. 2 a Where do you live, sir? 3 A. Collinsville, Illinois. A GL Are you employed? s' 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 % Who do you work for? 7 A. Monsanto. 8 What is your position with Monsanto? 9 A- Chief Chemist at the Hrunr.rich riant. 10 What is your education? 11 A. I have a Master's Decree in Analytical 12 Chenistry. 13 0- Where did you get that? U A. Kansas State University, Manhattan, Kansas. 15 a What year? 16 A. 1951. 17 Q, 18 degrees? You have any additional course work or 19 A- That's my degree. Well, I had a 3.S. in 20 chenistry prior to that, of course. 21 Q> Nothing further than the M.A.? 22 A. That's right. 23 How long have you worked f o r Monsanto? 2A A- Approximately twenty years. Be twenty years 25 in September. '1 JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE ' 1 y2 Q What was your first Job with Monsanto? A. I was a group leader in what they call the k 3 Process Research Group. What kind of processes were you researching 5 in that group? ' 6 A. All the processes that are in operation at 7 the Krummrich Plant. 8 a You been at the Xruirjnrich Plant the entire 9 twenty years that you have been with Monsanto? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q During your time there did you have occasion 12 to work with 2 , l , 5 T o r 2,1 D? \ 13 A. N o , sir, I didn't. 14 Q During your time there did you analyze 15 substances or products or chemicals for dioxin? 16 A. I'm sorry, would you restate question. 17 n While you worked at the Krummrich Plant 18 have you ever analyzed or caused to be analyzed substances 19 for dioxin content? 20 A. Yes, sir, there were materials analyzed for 21 dioxin content * ` 22 Q When did you first do that? 23 A. To my knowledge,-the first samples that we 24 sent for dioxin content that I knew, was knowledgeable of, 25 was 1979. r 1A J A M E S M A Y R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E h 7 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 J 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 -a -yif21 :22 23 24 25 ft And that would have been which dioxin? A Chlorinated dioxin. ft Do you know about analyzing specifically for 2,3,7,8 tetrachlorodibenzo-para-dioxin? A I don't know, sir. ft You don't know whether that was ever done at the Krumnrich Plant? A No, sir, not as such. ft When you say you are Chief Chemist for the Xrummrich Plant, what are the duties of the Chief Chemist? A Well, essentially the Chief Cher.ist is a misnomer, I'm really Laboratory Superintendent. My work is of an administrative nature. I have a lab force of about forty-five to fifty people, so I'm involved with personnel matters, performance reviews, salary administration, that sort of thing. ft What was the occasion in 1979 that you were analyzing for chlorinated dioxins, dibenzo-dioxins? A There was a sample that was brought in that we arranged to get dioxin analysis on. ft What was it a -sample of? A It was a sample taken at the tine of the Sturgeon spill Q Be about January 10th, 1979? A I don't remember the exact date. JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 Q, In the wintertime? 2 A, Yes, sir. 3 Q. What were the results of that testing? 4 A. I never actually saw the results. All we 5 did was arrange to send the sample. . 6 Q. When you say you arranged to send the sample, 7 what's that mean? 8 A ' We11, we have the responsibility for making 9 sure that all sariDles that are sent out of the plant for 10 testing or to customers or anything like that are sent n according to Department of Transportation regulations. 12 Q And you sent the sample to some other 13 laboratory? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 Ql And where was that? 16 A It seems like It was a laboratory in 17 Nebraska somewhere, but I'm. not positive. 18 Q Did you ever analyze for thechlorinated 19 dibenzo-dioxins, or whatever, at the Krumnrich Flant itself? 20 A We are currently doing that on some products 21 n o vi. 22 Q When did you first start doing it at the 23 Kruminrich Plant? 24 A Let's see, probably a year, year and a half 25 ago now. JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE i^ Nt VJ 1 a Early 1582, I guess? 2 A. Yes, probably around there. 3Q 4 facility? Are any of those products from the Nitro % 5 A. No, sir. 6 Are any of those substances or products 7 that you're testing manufactured at the Nitro facility? 8 A. No, sir. 9 n What are those substances? 10 A. They are chlorophenols. 11 Q Are they used in the intermediate steps in 12 the manufacture of finished products that Monsanto produces? 13 A. Yes, some of then are. 14 Q And what are those products? 15 A. Parachlorophenol is used in the manufacture 16 of Santophen 1. 17 C You still manufacturing Santophen 1? 18 A. Yeah, for another month, probably. 19 Q And are you analyzing orthochlorophenol, 20 by-product of that? 21 A- (Nods head affirmatively.) 22 Q How long has orthochlorophenol been analyzed 23 by Monsanto for dioxin? 24 A. To my knowledge, like I said, for probably 25 a year, year and a half. That's when we began being JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 involved in analyzing. J2 Q You don't know whether Monsanto analyzed the 3 orthochlorophenol, by-product of Santophen process, before 4 a year and a half ago, do you? 5 A. No. Q Do you know who would know that? 7 A No, sir, I really don't. 8 Q When you got the assignment to begin this 9 testing, for these dioxins, and I assume 2,3,7.6 TCDD is 10 one of them you're looking for, were you given some brief n ings by your company about dioxins? 12 A Yes, we were given an analytical method or 13 procedure to use. 14 Q When did you first learn thatMonsanto was 15 testing for dioxins? l A Really, I wasn't aware of it, I guess, until 17 the time with the Sturgeon incident. 18 Q When did you first hear about dioxins? 19 A Oh, early *70fs, late '60's. 20 Q, In what context did you hear about them? 21 A Just general reading, perhaps, discussions. 22 I really don't remember exactly the first time. 23 -Q That wouldhave been the first ..timeperiod 24 that you became aware of it? 25 A Yes. JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 8 1 Q, And when you became aware of them, was that 2 in connection with any product that Monsanto was producing? 3 A. N o , sir. 4 Q When did you first learn about dioxin, if 5 you did3 being connected with a product that Monsanto was 6 producing? 7 A Probably somwhere in the early '70's, mid-; 8 '70 rs . 9 Q And what was the product? 10 A Pentachlorophenol. 11 Q, How did you core to learn about dioxin in 12 connection with that product? 13 A Through discussions with sons people who 14 were doing some research, process-type research. 15 Q Who were they? 16 A The one I recall is Steve Vogel. 17 Q. What was his title? 18 A He was Research Chemist. 19 Q Do you know if the only thing he was looking 20 at was pentachlorophenol? 21 A I just don't know for sure, sir. That's 22 the only one I remember. 23 Q Was he looking at anytrichlorophenols? 24 A Not to my knowledge. 25 Q At that time were you aware, of a dioxin JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE O' 1 problem associated with 2,*1,5 trichlorophenoxyacetic acid 2 at the Nitro Plant? 3 A. No , sir . 4 Q Were you ever aware of that? 5 A. Hot until fairly recently. 6 Q When you began testing about a year and a 7 half ago at the Krummrich Plant for dioxin associated with 8 the Santophen process and orthochlorophenol, did you do any 9 research to see what Monsanto knew about dioxins and testing 10 for them? 11 A. Yes, because what we are doing is Monsanto 12 technology and methodology. K J 13 Q In looking at what Monsanto knew as of a 14 year and a half ago in preparation to undertake this project 15 to test Santophen and orthochlorophenol, what did you find 16 out? Did you see anything in there about the Nitro Plant 17 and 2,*1,5 T and dioxin? 18 A. I didn't see anything, no, sir. 19 Q. Did anybody tell you about it? 20 A. If I heard it, it was strictly in a passing 21 manner. No, nothing specifically. 22 Q Well, what did you hear In a passing manner? 23 A. I don't really recall. . _ 24 Q In preparation for your project in connec 25 tion with Santophen, did you look at any documents that JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 ^ S 2 3 j) : %i?4 ^ i **- * ' 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 J 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 / . > - 22 23 24 25 Monsanto had from the Dow Chemical Company? A No, sir. Q Were you given any instruction about the toxicity of dioxin in connection with your .preparation to start handling these materials? A. There were safety precautions as part of the methodology. Q, And what were those safety precautions? A Well, I've not been specifically doing the analysis, so I can't relate in detail what they are. G Were you responsible for seeing to it that these safety precautions were communicated to the people who would actually be doing the work? A No, sir. The method was submitted by people from Research, and they actually did the training and instruction of the people at the Krunmrich Plant on how to do it. G So you don't know anything about that, right* A That's right, no detail on it. Q Did anybody tell you about the risks associated with dioxin exposure in connection with your process with this Santophen? A Nothing more than what I have already related. Q Well, what were those risks? +< J A M E S M A Y R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 11 v) 1 A. I. mean, of the safety precautions and so 2 forth that were to be taken in doing; the analysis. 3 Cl Anybody tell you about any health effects, 4 adverse health effects being exposed to dioxin? 5 A. No, sir, nothing more than what was very 6 prevalent in the media and so forth. 7 0. Do they brief you from the media, is that 8 what they do? 9 A No, sir. 10 Q Well, did they brief you? They Just tell 11 you, go read the newspapers to find out whether dioxin would 12 hurt you or not? 13 A No, sir. I've never been aware of any U adverse health effects from dioxin. 15 Q, Okay. So far as you know, It doesn't hurt 16 you, right? 17 A That's right. 18 Q Is that what Monsanto told you? 19 A No. That's a personal opinion. 20 Q And what have you read that says dioxin 21 won't hurt you? 22 A I guess, the most recent thing I've read 23 was the report from the A.M.A. .- 74 Q And what was that? 25 A That was a few weeks ago, I think, when that JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1o 1 r elease carne. 2 Q That resolution? 3 A. Yeah. 4 G Did you see the retraction of the resolution? 5 A. Yeah, I saw something about that, yes', sir. g Have you read any of the literature about 7 dioxin in preparation for your overseeing this project in 8 connection with Santophen? 9 A. Yes, sir, I 1ve read some literature. 10 Q, What have you read? 11 A. I read a number of articles in the scientific 12 Journals, C & E News. 13 Q Any particular commentator or reporter that 14 you have read? 15 A. Not that I remember specifically. l Q So from what you're saying, then, as far as 17 you know, TCDD, 2,3,7,8, is Just not toxic , right , doesn't 18 hurt you, in other words? 19 A. To ny knowledge, it's never been proven to 20 be toxic to humans. 21 Q So there1s no real reason to take safety 22 precautions with it, is there? 23 A. Well, I think we take safety precautions 24 with a lot of things. 25 Q Let me hand you whatTs been narked Plaintiff JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 Exhibit 29*1 (Monsanto's I.D. ~232553) 3 and ask you to take 2 a look at that. 3 That's in 197*1 memorandum from a Mr. Mieure, is it 4 not ? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q And addressed to you? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q And is on Monsanto letterhead? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Cl And you recognize that form, is that right? 11 A. I recognize the form, yes, sir. 12 And as far as you know, you got that? 13 A. I don't remember it. I'm. sure I probably 14 got it, yes, 15 a You have had an opportunity to look at 16 Exhibit 29*1, haven't you? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q See anything in there that you disagree with? 19 A, Ho, sir. 20 Q, That memo says you were testing for TCDD 21 in 197*1, doesn't it? 22 A. They were attempting to. 23 0, Why would that have been addreased to you? 24 A. Probably because we supplied the sample to 25 Dr. Mieure. JAMES MAY REPO RTING SERVICE a 1 Q And what was your Job in 197^? 2 A. I was Chief Chemist. 3 CX Same job you have now? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Cl Why did it fall to you to supply the sample 6 to Dr. tfieure or to your department, or whatever? 7 A. 3ecause we have what we call the sales 8 sample function as part of the laboratory, and this is our 9 people that are responsible for sendinr out samples that 10 are requested in one form or another. 11 Q And what is the sales sample function, 12 what's that mean? 13 A. Okay. It supplies samples to customers -- 14 If through marketing customers request a sample of one of 15 our products, we had the capability in the lab of packaging 16 that material and sending it out. So we also send samples, 17 we also package and send practically all of the other samples 18 that go out of the plant also. 19 Q So If a potential customer would want to 20 try out a sample of whatever, 2,4,5 T, for example, in the 21 '60's, your department would have been responsible for 22 packaging up, let's say, a quantity of it and getting it to 23 that customer for their testing or use? _ _ 24 A. A function similar to that, yes. We didn't 25 have the sales sample function in the '60's as part of our JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1E 1 laboratory. 2 Q Do you know who did? 3 A. It was part of the Technical Services 4 organization in the '60's, early '60's. I don't remember 5 the exact time when it became part of the laboratory. It 6 was sometime after 1966. 7 Q, 3ut prior to 1966, as far as you know, it 8 was part of Technical Services? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q, And what was the physical location of the 11 department that would have had that responsibility for 12 packaging these samples? 13 A. It was part of the, I'd guess you'd say, the 14 administration building for the plant. 15 Q At Krummrich? l A. At Krummrich. 17 a So as far as you know, then, this sales 18 sampling function was always confined to the Krummrich Plant 19 area in one division or department or another? r 20 A. Well, to send out products that we made at 21 that plant. Now, I'm sure that other locations have a 22 similar function also. 23 Q Okay. So Is it your understanding that each 24 manufacturing facility has a sales sampling department or 25 function? JAM ES MAY REPO RTING SERVICE 16 ' 1 A. Yes, sir, I would think they do. 2 Q Okay. Now, are records kept of the samples * 3 that you would send out from time to time, as to who they '' 4 went to and what the request was and that sort of thing? 5 A. There are records kept, yes. 6 Q Do they have a name? Is there some specific 7 form that's followed? 8 A. To my knowledge, they are logged in a log 9 book. 10 Q Even today? 11 A. Yes, sir, 12 Q . Have you seen the log, book? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q Is It just a handwritten kind of thing? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q Do you know what happens to the log book? 17 A. Well, they are kept on file for several 18 years and then once the material has been assumed to have 19 been used and so forth, the records are destroyed.. 20 a If somebody asked for the log books in the 21 sales sampling function, at least, you would know what they 22 were talking about, right? 23 A. Yeah. . .- 24 Q Now, in 197*1 why, if you know, were you 25 testing for TCDD? JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE ' 17 1 A Well, as I said, Mr. Vogel was working on 2 -- and he was not part of my organization. He was part of 3 the Process Research organization housed in the same 4 building in which I was located. 5 Q Do you know why Monsanto was testing for 6 TCDD in 1971*? 7 A. I don't know why that testing was initiated, 8 no, sir. 9 ft Did you know what Mr. Mieure was talking 10 about when he talked about the toxicity of TCDD in that 11 Exhibit 29*1? 12 A. Well, as I recall, the concern at that time 13 was chloracne. That's the only thing that I was aware of. 14 ft Do you know where the chloracne was occurring 15 at that time? 16 A. Would you elaborate on that, please? 17 ft Was there a chloracne problem or a breakout 18 of chloracne at some Monsanto facility? 19 A. 20 chloracne. There were some people, apparently, have had 21 ft And do you know where that was? 22 A. There were some at the Krummrich Plant. 23 ft Anyplace else? ; 24 A. I'm not aware of any anyplace else. 25 ft The effort that's described In Exhibit 29*1 JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE TR  1 to analyze for TCDD, do you know how long that particular ^ 2 project or job lasted, what period of tine was involved V 3 there? 4 A. No, sir, I don't exactly. X would estinate 5 that Mr. Vogel was involved with that, perhaps, for a year, 6 or something like that. 7 Q. And were you copied and did you receive most 8 of the correspondence that would be associated with that 9 ongoing project since you were over the, I guess, sales 10 sampling function, or, at least, that was in your department 11 at the time. 12 A. I don't remember any number of letters or J 13 memos regarding that. 14 Q. Was there mere than one? , 15 A. I don 't know . 16 Q Do you recall any other projects or Jobs 17 like that to analyze for TCDD? 18 A. No, sir. That was the one that I mentioned 19 earlier that I was familiar with there was work being done. 20 Q, Do you know if there were materials from. other plants that would have been handled through your 22 department that would have been analyzed for TCDD? 23 A. No, sir, not to my knowledge, nothing from 24 other plants. 25 Q Do you know if Steve Vogel would have been r JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 19 1 involved in analyzing for TCDD in materials from other plants 2 A. No, sir, I don't know'that he was. X don't 3 believe that he was. He was assigned to work on products 4 at the Krummrich Plant. 1 5 Q Now, where did the pentachlorophenol come from? 7 A. We manufactured it for a number ofyears, 8 Q At the Krummrich Plant? 9 . A. Yes, sir. 10 G. And in connection with your testing of the 11 pentachlorophenol, were you also testing along about that 12 time the orthochlorophenol that was the by-product of 13 Santophen? 14 A. I really don't remember, sir. I was not 15 supervising the work and I Just don't remember. l Q That would have been in 197*1 when Steve 17 Vogel was doing this? 18 A. Right. 19 Q At that time, at least, the preparation of 20 any samples for shipment, or whatever, would have come 21 through you, is that right? 22 A. It's likely they would have, although, I'm 23 sure there were instances where they went over by some other 24 source. 25 Q Is it likely also that orthochlorophenol JAM ES MAY REPO RTING SERVICE ?n  1 was included with the pentachlorophenol? In fact, that y 2 whole family were probably being tested, weren't they, at 3 that time? > *' ' ,"4 A. I don 't know. ... 5 Q Is It likely that they were? 6 A. You're asking me for an opinion? 7 Q Uh huh (yes). 8 A. I would think it was likely they would have 9 been, yes. 10 0, They are fairly closely related, you're 11 chlorinating a benzene ring, so if you were into that par- 12 ticular problem of analysis, It would make sense, would it 13 not, that you'd probably be looking at pentachlorophenol and 14 orthochlorophenol in 197^ -- 15 A. Yes, sir, I would think so. 16 G. And dioxins were in fact found in one degree 17 or another in the pentachlorophenols and orthochlorophenols, 18 weren't they? 19 A. I'm knowledgeable that they found them in 20 the penta, yes. . t ; "'V.'.l n Q And from your knowledge of testing procedures ) if they were testing the orthochlorophenol, they, at least, 23 had the capability of finding it there also if .they could 24 find it in the penta, right? 25 A. Yes, sir. 'i JAMES MAY REPO RTING SERVICE OT 1 Q Now, are records kept of those kinds of 2 tests? 3 A There are records kept at the tine that the '4 work is done, but they are not kept indefinitely. 5 Q Is there some policy that relates to reten 6 tion of -7 A. There's a records-retention systen. 8 Q, How would you identify the work that Mieure 9 -- I assume he would be writing down his findings and 10 recording it somehow? 11 A. Yes, sir, I would certainly assume so. 12 Q Are those called laboratory records, or do 13 they have a specific name within your organization? 14 A Laboratory notebook. 15 Q, Okay. And, I suppose, those are handwritten 16 documents that are created as the experiment, or whatever, 17 Is progressing? 18 A That's right. 19 Q, 3y the person who's actually doing the work? 20 A That's right. 21 Q Now, are those laboratory notebooks likewise 22 covered by your retention policy, documents retention policy 9 23 A I'm not sure because what we _do..with the 24 laboratory notebooks at the Xrummrlch Plant after a booklet 25 has been filled, it's sent over to the library system at the JAMES MAY REPO RTING SERVICE 22 1 general offices and microfilmed and then they maintain the 2 files. 3 0, Well, that makes more sense. Obviously, you - 4 wouldn't want to discard information that you gleened from , 5 experience, so you'd want to record that, I suppose, as opposed to correspondence or something like that? 7 A. Right. 8 Q. So as far as you know, the laboratory note 9 books, as such, become a part of the library cf information 10 that Monsanto would have? 11 A. Yes, sir, to my knowledge. 12 Q As far as you know, it's r.icrofilm.ee? 13 A. Yes, sir. U a All right. Could I see 29^ for a minute? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q Now, in the first paragraph of 29^ reference 17 is made to seven chlorophenol fractions. Do you knew what 18 that means? 19 A. Those were production fractions, samples 20 that were taken from the production process at the tine. .>21 Q, Now, when you say chlorophenol, is that 22 sufficiently descriptive to tell you what chlorophenol? 23 A. No, sir, it isn't. 24 Cl It could have been the ortho, the penta? 25 A. I don't remember enough about the process \ JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 23 1 at this point in time to specifically state what specific 2 composition those fractions might have been. 3 Q Now, in the body -- I'm going to call that 4 ta letter, #29^. A. All right. Q In the body of that letter from Mr. Meiure .7 to you some general observations are made about the dioxins 8 that may be thrown or created In the chlorophenols. Are 9 those comments general to the orthochlorophencls, the penta10 chlorophenols? In other words, we are talking about the n family of chlorophenols, really, in that letter, aren't we? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 0, And that would support your opinion that it 14 was likely that orthochlorophenol was likewise being con 15 sidered at that time? l A. I would think It might be, but I don't 17 really have knowledge of that. 18 Q, And you're ananalytical chemist? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q And as ananalytical chemist, if some con 21 clusions are made about the chlorophenols and their potential 22 for dioxins, those statements may have some application to 23 the particular chlorophenols, like, penta or ortho, Isn't 24 that right? 25 A, Yes, sir. JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 Q, The ability of the chlorophenols to create 2 dioxins at various uses and stages, it's kind of a common 3 thread when you!re dealing with chlorophenols in these 4 various processes, isn't that right? You know what a 5 chlorophenol will do, and if you're working with ortho6 chlorophenol and you know it's a chlorophenol, you know you 7 have the potential to create a dioxin, don't you? 8 A. That1s possible . Like I say, I've forgotten 9 -- I'm not all that knowledgeable, directly knowledgeable- of 10 the process, but I think there are some -- I think the 11 higher chlorinated materials would certainly tend to have 12 more potential for dioxin. 13 Q That's right. So If the penta had a 14 potential, then you as an analytical chemist would know you 15 get into orthochlorophenols and you're a little higher there, 16 are you not? 17 A. Mo, you're not. 18 a You're lower? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q You know that the penta and ortho both have 21 the capability of throwing a 2,3,7,8 tetrachlorodibenzo22 oara-dioxin? 23 A. I don't know that. - 24 Q Just the ortho, right? 25 A. I don't know that the ortho does . JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 Q. You know what chlorophenols will have the 2 potential of creating a 2,3,7,8 TCDD? 3 A. No. sir, I don't.. 4 Q I mean, you never learned that as an 5 analytical chemist? i 6 A. No, sir. Not the chemistry of formation of 7 the dioxins. 8 Q And I'll ask you this one more time. In '7^ 9 you were looking at these chlorophenols foh their dioxin 10 potential? 11 A. 12 Q Mr. Vogel was looking at it. And you said that you thought one of the 13 reasons was because of chloracne you thought might have been 14 existing at the Krummrich Plant. You know of any other 15 reason why you might have been looking at the chlorophenols 16 for their potential dioxin content? 17 A. No, sir, I don't. . 18 Q And the next time you heard about Monsanto 19 looking at chlorophenols for their dioxin potential was in 20 early 1979 associated with the Sturgeon spill, is that right? 21 A. Yes, sir. To my knowledge, that's what I 22 recall. 23 Q So, at least, in your recollection after 24 197*1 or *75, whatever that time period was when Mr. Vogel 25 was looking at the chlorophenols for dioxins, the next time JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 you know that Monsanto was concerned about it was in early 2 1979 associated with the Sturgeon spill, is that right? 3 A. To my knowledge. Because Mr. Vogel left 4 the plant into another position and there wasn't anyone 5 there doing that type of work subsequent to that. G Mow, during that time period, *7^ to 1979, 7 aside from the work that Mr. Vogel did in '7** and then the 8 work that you became, at least, tangentially involved in / 9 in '79, do you know of any ether testing that Monsanto was 10 doing for dioxins associated with chlorophenols? 11 A. Veil, I heard reference to Chick Edema tests. i 12 Q. Okay. And when did you hear about that? 13 A. That was about the same time that Mr. Vogel 14 was doing this work. 15 a In fact, it's mentioned in that memo, is l it not? 17 Yes, sir. 18 Q Exhibit 29^? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q And you also knew about rabbit ear tests, 21 right? 22 A. Yes, sir, I heard about those. 23 Q What did you hear about the rabbit ear tests' 24 A. Just that tests were being done. To my 25 knowledge, I never saw any results. JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 27 1 Q Never saw any -- 2 A. Never saw any results or never saw the 3 rabbit. 4 Ql With chloracne, right? 5 A. Because that was not-done at our location. 6 But that was something in your line of work 7 as an analytical chenist you would have had some interest in 8 wouldn1t you? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q In fact, in your training as an analytical 11 chemist you did have some introduction to the toxicity of 12 various substances, did you not? 13 A. Well, yes, sir, you're always -- 14 Cl I mean, that you're going to be working with 15 them. 16 A. You're always concerned with the safety 17 aspects of anything you work with. 18 That was part of the course work you did? 19 At least, that was associated with the textbooks you read 20 and the literature? 21 A. Yes, sir. You were always taught not to 22 add water to acid. 23 Q In your studies and, I assume, you kept 24 abreast over the years of developments in your field? 25 A. I've tried to. JAMES MAY REPO RTING SERVICE 9P. 1 Q Aside from the media that you have read, 2 the newspaper accounts of pros and cons of the toxicity 3 of dioxins, did you read anything else at all about toxicity 4 of dioxins? 5 A In what manner, sir, what type? 6 G. Did you read they were toxic? 7 A Well, I've read in a number of scientific 8 Journals reference to their being toxic to animals. / 9 0. .Okay. So you at least knew that. Was that 10 in the early '70's that you knew about that? 11 A About that time, 12 Gt Did you ever read a German study by Ker.ick 1 13 (phoenetic) in 1957 regarding the toxicity of 2,3,7,6 14 tetrachlorodibenzo-para-dioxin? 15 A Mo, sir, .1 don't recall reading that. 16 Q You are familiar with it, though? 17 A. No, I really can't say that I am. I Joined 18 Monsanto in 19^3 and I was doing analytical work prior to 19 that for another company but in a different line of chemi 20 cals. ; 21 What company were you working for? 22 A Dow-Corning. 23 a You worked with no chlorophenols or anything 24 like that? 25 A No,, sir. Dow-Coming was involved strictly JAMES MAY REPO RTING SERVICE 29 1 with silicone . 2 Q Did you have any connection with a Nitro 3 Task Force? 4 A. No, sir, not at all. 5 Q Ever seen or read any studies by Raymond Suskind? 7 A. No, sir, I can't recall that I did. 8 0, Do you know who he is? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Now, do you know Dr. Callis? n From Monsanto? 12 Yes, sir. 13 A. Yes, sir, I know who he is. 14 Q Did you ever work with him or under him or 15 for him? 1 A. No, sir. 17 ft Dr. Meyer? F. Meyer, Ferd Meyer at Monsanto. 18 He's retired now but he was with Monsanto? 19 A. No, sir,- I don't recall him. 20 Q, The fourth paragraph of Exhibit 29^ reads, 21 "Alternatively, another course of action seems attractive. 22 Since the reason for this analysis is to determine what 23 safety^ precautions are needed for the handling .and disposal 24 of this residue, a more direct measurement of overall 25 toxicity is available. This would be to subject the residue JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 30 1 to a biological test, such as the rabbit ear or chick 2 embryo tests. 'This has the additional advantage that it 3 might detect other toxic com.Donents which could be in the . 4 residue, such as other chlorodibenzodioxifts or chloro5 dibenzofurans. While these compounds are significantly less 6 toxic than TCDD, we should not overlook their possible effect 7 on the overall residue toxicity." Then-Mr. Kieure continues, 8 "It is my understanding th-at you and Steve Vogel are in 9 basic agreement with this approach." This letter was 10 addressed to you, so I assume the "you" Mr. Mieure was 11 referring to was K. J. Horner? 12 A. I guess that's right. 13 Q Did you determine what safety precautions 14 should be taken in handling those dioxins referred to in 15 Exhibit 29^? 16 A. I didn't. I'm not aware of anything further 17 on that. 18 Q In 197^ do you think you would, have known 19 what Mr. Mieure was talking about? 20 A. I 'm sure I was aware of his concerns. 21 Q And is it true that you were in agreement 22 with what he was saying? 23 A Yeah, he certainly had a lot_ more expertise 24 in that area than I did at the plant. 25 CL That may be true, but is it true you were in JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 agreement with what he was saying there in 29*1 for testing 2 for safety precautions in that fashion? 3 A. Yeah, what he was talking about there, I'm 4 sure, is being in agreement with the additional testing, 5 the rabbit ear and chick edema test., 6 Q, And you knew what he was talking about, 7 referring to rabbit's ear ana chick edema, in 197*1, right? 8 A My only knowledge of it was it was supposed 9 to show response such as to chloracne type. 10 Q. You really weren't very curious at all about 11 this dioxin or TCDD or chlorophenols in 197*1, 1 guess? 12 A Not to any great extent. 13 Q. And even today you're not, is that right? 14 A That's right, I 'm still not aware of any 15 human health effects. l Q, And you're just not particularly curious 17 about It either? 18 A I'm curious, certainly. 19 Q You don't really ask anybody about, it, do 20 you, in the plant or your superiors or people in the 21 medical department? It's just not of much Interest to you, 22 Is it? If It were, you'd know more about it, wouldn't you? 23 A Yes, sir, I feel we'd know what we need to 24 know to work safely with the material. 25 C> Okay. Tell me what you need to know to work JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 32 1 safely with the material since you do know that. 2 A Well, the material really is in very, very 3 small concentrations in anything we work with, parts per ` 4 trillion, and the chemists that are actually doing the work 5 were instructed by the people who developed the method on 6 the necessary procedures to work with it safely. 7 Q And do you know what those procedures are? 8 A Not in detail. 9 Q Do you know about them generally? 10 A I can't relate then in order, no, sir. 11 Q 12 going to? Is it that you can't or you Just aren't 13 A I really haven't -- no, sir, I Just don't 14 know what they are in detail. 15 Q. Is your lack of knowledge about these things 16 typical of Monsanto employees at your level? You don't 17 seen to know very much about it. 18 A I'n not directly involved with the analysis. 19 I haven't done any so-called bench work for twenty years. 20 Q In Exhibit reference is made to concen . 21 tration levels of TCDD in these particular samples at the 22 six- to seven-parts-per-million concentration level, and you 23 Just testified that the concentration levels of these 24 dioxins that you're aware of that. Monsanto'tests and works 25 with are in very small quantities, minute concentrations, I . JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 think you said parts per trillion. 2 A. Yeah, parts per billion, parts per trillion. 3 Cl Has Monsanto established any .safe level of 4 dioxin concentration, a level that you are concerned about 5 in terms of implementing safety precautions and handling a 6 chemical with that particular level of dioxin? 7 A. Yes, sir, I know they have established a 8 level below which they don't ship any material. 9 Q; I 'm not sure I follow that. A level below 10 which they don't ship any material? 11 A. Yeah. If they analyze and find above a 12 certain number, they would not ship that material. 13 Q I see. If it had a level -- 14 A. Concentration. 15 Q A concentration of dioxin above a certain 16 level, then that would not be shipped to a customer? 17 A. Right. 18 CL What is that level? 19 A. I don't have knowledge of that. This- is 20 handled through a different part of the organization. 21 Q And when the sales sample function was 22 handled under your direction, was there also a level for 23 dioxin above which you would not ship materials? 24 A. The sales sample function is currently under 25 my direction and has been since probably '67, '68, somewhere JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 around there. V2 ft But you don't know what the level is of 3 dioxin which would prohibit you frorr. shipping something to 4 the customer, is that right? 5 A. The material that 's ,,released for shipment has to meet certain specifications. 7 Q I don't doubt that. 8 A. We get permission from Marketing as to what 9 material can be sent. 10 Q And what permission have you gotten with 11 relation to dioxin content during the period 1966 through 12 today? 13 A. Well, as I said, we have Just be run analyzing 14 routinely for dioxin within the last year to year and a half, 15 and this is when the level I'm talking about, to my 16 knowledge, has been established. 17 Q. What is that level? You surely know it, 18 don't you? 19 A. I can't say specifically the number of parts 20 uer billion. 21 Q. Is it one part per billion? 22 A. I really don't know specifically, I know 23 it s down in that area. 24 Qt Was there any standard in 197*1? 25 A. No, sir, not to my knowledge. JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 35 1 In 1970? 2 A (Shakes head negatively. ) 3 Q As far as you know, the first time that 4 Monsanto ever had a standard for dioxin content was in, 5 like, the last year and a half, is that what you're saying:? A. That's in regard to chlorophenols , yes, sir 7 the products that I'm knowledgeable. 8 Q. Chlorophenols, that's what we have been 9 talking about. 10 MR. CALWELL: All right, Mr. Homer. 11 Thank you very much. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Henry J. H o m e r 22 23 24 25 JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 36 1 2 STATE OF ILLINOIS ) ) SS 3 COUNTY OF MADISON ,) 4 5 7 I, M. JOY SPRINGER, a Notary Public, duly 8 commissioned and qualified in and for the County of Madison, 9 State of Illinois, do hereby certify that pursuant tc notice 10 came before me on the 8th day of July, 1983, at the 11 Radisson Hotel, Room 2153 9th Street and Convention Plaza, 12 St. Louis, Missouri, HENRY J. HORNER, who was by me duly 13 sworn to testify to the truth and nothing but the truth of 14 his knowledge touching and concerning the matters in con 15 troversy in this case; that' he was thereupon carefully 16 examined upon oath, and his examination reduced to writing 17 under my supervision; that the deposition is a true record 18 of the testimony given by the witness; and signature of the 19 witness was not waived by agreement of counsel. 20 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither attorney > 21 nor counsel for nor related to nor employed by any of the 1 ` 22 parties to the action in which this deposition is taken; 23 and further, that I am not a relative or employee of any 24 attorney and counsel employed by the parties hereto, or 25 financially Interested in the action. JAMES MAY REPO RTING SERVICE \ 1' IN WITNESS WHEPEOF, I have hereunto set ny hand and affixed my notarial seal on this _________ day of ________________ , 1983- 4 5 7 8 Notary Public within and 9 for the County of Madison, 10 in the State of Illinois. 11 12 13 14 15 1 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 38