Document 3Qb2dZna0j7vyzKXmzbYoV89a

FILE NAME: Ford (FD) DATE: 1998 May 4 DOC#: FD019 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition of Henry Lick CAUSE NO. 94-007165 STEPHEN F. BLOCK, JR. and RITA BLOCK, Plaintiffs, IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF HARRIS COUNTY, TEXAS -vs- MAREMONT CORPORATION, ET AL. 215TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT Defendants. VIDE O D E P O S I T I O N OF HENRY LICK Dickinson Wright 500 Woodward Avenue, Ste. 4000 Detroit, MI 48226 May 4, 1998 8:00 a.m. APPEARANCES: FOR PLAINTIFF: FOR DEFENDANT FORD: COOK, BUTLER & DOYLE 4 Houston Center 1221 Lamar, Ste. 1300 Houston, Texas 77010 BY: MR. RUSSELL L. COOK, JR. MS. LYNN BRADSHAW DICKINSON WRIGHT 500 Woodward Avenue, STe. Detroit, MI 48226 BY: MR. ROBERT S. KRAUSE 4000 FOR DEFENDANT FORD: CALLIER & GARZA 1301 McKinney, Ste. 3138 Houston, Texas 77010 BY: MR. BERNARDO S. GARZA REPORTER: Patricia R. Murray, CSR PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 APPEARANCES (Con't): FOR DEFENDANT CHRYSLER: FEIKENS, VANDER MALE, STEVENS, BELLAMY & GILCHRIST One Detroit Center 500 Woodward Avenue, Ste. 3400 Detroit, MI 48226 BY: MR. ROBERT H. FEIKENS FOR DEFENDANT ABEX: POLING, MC GAW & POLING 5435 Corporate Drive, Ste. 275 Troy, MI 48098 BY: MR. RICHARD B. POLING, JR. MS. VERONICA B. O'HARA FOR DEFENDANT MORTON: LAURA D. MASON, P.C. The Rembrandt Building 19678 Harper Avenue, Ste. 101 Grosse Pointe Woods, MI 48236 BY: MS. LAURA D. MASON FOR DEFENDANT ALLIED & GM: THOMPSON & KNIGHT 3300 First City Center 1700 Pacific Avenue Dallas, Texas 75201 BY: MS. DAWN MARIE WRIGHT FOR DEFENDANT BRIDGESTONE/ FIRESTONE: BAKER & BOTTS One Shell Plaza 910 Louisiana Houston, Texas 77002 BY: MR. GEORGE T. SHIPLEY ALSO PRESENT: HARDIN, COOK, LOPER, ENGEL Lake Merritt Plaza 1999 Harrison Street, 18th Oakland, CA 94612 BY: MR. TROY D. MC MAHAN & BERGEZ Floor PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 INDEX WITNESS: HENRY LICK Examination by Mr. Cook 1 1EXHIBIT NO. 1 EXHIBIT INDEX DESCRIPTION NONE PAGE NO. 5 PAGE NO. PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 4 HENRY LICK 1 Detroit, Michigan 2 May 4, 1998 3 8:00 a.m. 4 5 THE TECHNICIAN: Today's date is May 4, 6 1998 and we're on the record at 8:05 a.m. This is 7 the video deposition of Mr. Henry Lick and we're at 8 the law offices of Dickinson Wright in Detroit, 9 Michigan. This is the matter of Block versus 10 Maremont Corporation et a l . 11 Counsel, can you put your appearance on the 12 record, please? 13 MR. COOK: Russell Cook, for plaintiffs. 14 MS. BRADSHAW: Lynn Bradshaw, for the 15 plaintiffs. 16 MR. KRAUSE: Robert Krause, for Ford Motor 17 Company. 18 MR. GARZA: Bernard Garza, for Ford Motor 19 Company. 20 MS. WRIGHT: Dawn Wright, for Allied Signal 21 and General Motors Corporation. 22 MS. MASON: Laura Mason, for Morton 23 International. 24 MR. POLING: Richard B. Poling, Jr., on 25 behalf of Abex. PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 5 HENRY LICK 1 HENRY LICK 2 called as a witness by the Plaintiff, being first 3 duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 4 EXAMINATION 5 BY MR. COOK: 6 Q. Please state your full name for the record, sir. 7 A. My name is Henry B. Lick. 8 Q. Mr. Lick, how are you currently employed? 9 A. I'm the manager of Industrial Hygiene for the Ford 10 Motor Company. 11 Q. Who do you report to? 12 A. Right now, I report to a fellow by name of Walter 13 Telemonte. 14 Q. What is his job title? 15 A. He is Director of Clinical Medicine at this time. 16 We're going through an organization change right 17 now. 18 Q. Have you ever given your deposition before, Mr. 19 Lick? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. On how many occasions? 22 A. I don't remember. It's certainly less than a dozen. 23 Q. More than ten? 24 A. I don't know. It's not recently. 25 Q. Let's go back to when it was you last gave your PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 A. 5 6 Q. 7 A. 8 Q. 9 10 A. 11 12 13 Q. 14 A . 15 Q. 16 17 A. 18 Q. 19 A. 20 Q. 21 22 A. 23 24 Q. 25 A. 6 HENRY LICK deposition. When was that? On this particular ease? No. At any time. It was right after Dickinson Wright moved in this building, so what, four, five years. About five years ago? Yes. What kind of case was that? I don't need any details. Just generally, what was it about? It was not a brake case. It was just a regular asbestos case, I think it concerned some of our workers. Who were the plaintiffs in that case? I d o n 't know. Was this a suit against Ford by other large companies such as your suppliers? No. Who was it by? I don't remember. Do you recall it being involving the workers having claims against Ford? It involved workers but, you know, exactly what the case involved, I don't remember. This was four or five years ago? Yes. PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 Q. 2 A. 3 4 Q. 5 A. 6 7 8 Q. 9 A. 10 11 Q. 12 A. 13 14 15 Q. 16 A. 17 Q. 18 A. 19 Q. 20 A. 21 22 23 Q. 24 25 7 HENRY LICK Do you know where the workers were from? I think they were from our Sheldon Road plant but I don't know for sure. Where is the Sheldon Road plant? It's -- from here it would be northwest of Detroit, about 20, 25 minutes, in the Township of Plymouth, Michigan. How were these workers exposed to asbestos? We used to make a heater housing and it was reinforced with asbestos. I don't know what a heating housing is. It's your air conditioning and -- it's the plenum chamber that houses the air conditioning and the heater. It's heater housing for a car. For a car? Right. It's your ventilation system for your car. Did any of these workers have mesothelioma? Not that I could recall. Do you know one way or another? I don't remember. I don't remember very much about the case. This is not what I do for a living, testify. But you have testified before and so you know even though we're sitting here informally this proceeding has the same significance, force and effect as if we PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 5 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 10 11 A. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 Q. 20 A. 21 Q. 22 A. 23 24 Q. 25 8 HENRY LICK were before a court and jury in the courtroom? Yes. Can you and I have an agreement that if I ask you a question and you don't understand what I'm asking you, that you will stop me and tell me you don't understand? Yes. Prior to this deposition which was four or five years ago, what was the deposition going backwards in time that you next recall? I don't recall any of the particulars about the depositions. All I remember, this is -- we're looking at a 30-year career and once asbestos became known for what -- its health hazards, there was a number of times but if you look at 30 years and ten times or less than ten times, it's hard to remember. Like I said, it's not what I do for a living. When would your first deposition have been? I think it was sometime around '80. Where was that deposition taken? It was in the old law offices of Dickinson Wright, which I think is about a block from here. Sir, in this 1980 deposition, was it about asbestos also? PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 A. 2 Q. 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 A. 7 Q. 8 A. 9 q. 10 11 12 13 A. 14 Q. 15 A. 16 Q. 17 18 19 A. 20 21 22 Q. 23 24 A. 25 Q. 9 HENRY LICK Yes. Have all the depositions you've given been about asbestos or have there been some other -There have been some other health hazards involved. Now, were most of them about asbestos? Yes. This one in 1980, did it involve brakes at all? No, not that I can recall. Have you been involved in any cases where there's been an allegation that at least some asbestos involving brakes was a cause of the plaintiff's injuries? No. This is the first time? This is the first time on brakes. Can you tell me what some of the other sources of asbestos exposure were alleged in these other lawsuits? They were just strictly from where we used asbestos in the production process and again, it would be reinforcing plastic materials for various parts. But you did use asbestos in the production process at Ford? Yes. Have there been any asbestos-related health claims PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 5 6 7 8 A. 9 Q. 10 11 A. 12 Q. 13 A. 14 15 16 Q. 17 A. 18 Q. 19 A. 20 Q. 21 A. 22 23 Q. 24 A. 25 Q. 10 HENRY LICK out of that? I don't have any personal knowledge of that. Whether you have any personal knowledge, this is a discovery deposition and under Texas Rules so I get to ask you if you have any knowledge, hearsay or otherwise, and you can let me know that it's not personal. I have heard of one or two cases of mesothelioma. How did you hear about these one or two cases you mentioned? Through our epidemiologist. Who is your epidemiologist? This would not be the present epidemiologist. This was the past epidemiologist. His name was David Sugano. Can you spell that for me? S-U-G-A-N-0. Is Mr. Sugano still alive? I believe so. Do you know where he is located? He left Ford and is, I think, with Shearing Plow. He's in New Jersey, I know. Who is the current epidemiologist at Ford? A fellow by name of Gordon Reeve. What do these men do, a general description? What PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 11 HENRY LICK 1 2 A. is an epidemiologist? They study rates of disease. Essentially, they take 3 statistical applications and apply it towards 4 disease either in the workplace or in public health. 5 q. 6 Are you a part of the Medical Department at Ford? Is that what it's called or what is the appropriate 7 term? 8 A. We were the Occupational Health and Safety 9 Department. 10 Q. What are you now? 11 A. Now we're part of something called Health Protection 12 Services, which is part of Health Care Management. 13 Q. What resource information do you have available to 14 you in your job? 15 MR. KRAUSE: What do you mean resource - 16 literature? 17 BY MR. COOK: 18 Q. Literature, computer on-line - 19 A. Well, there are the everyday journals, American 20 Industrial Hygiene Journal. We get the B & A, a 21 review of everything in occupational health and 22 safety. Various -- not tabloid magazines but the 23 health and safety magazines from the popular press. 24 In our Toxicology Department they have some 25 on-line services, I forget which ones they are. But PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 Q. 3 A. 4 Q. 5 A. 6 7 8 9 Q. 10 11 A. 12 Q. 13 A. 14 Q. 15 A. 16 Q. 17 A. 18 19 20 Q. 21 22 A. 23 24 25 12 HENRY LICK we do have some on-line services available to us. Do you have a medical library available to you? Yes. How is that available to you? I have part of it in my office and then the occupational health physicians in their particular offices which is now clinical medicine have that available to them also in their offices. Does your medical library have books that deal with the lungs? Yes. Can you tell me the names of some of those books? No. Do you ever look at any of those books? Yes. How old are thosebooks? Well, it depends on which ones you're looking at. We have -- some of our books go back to the '40s and some are recently, five or six years. If you look at the books that go back to the '40s do they indicate asbestos as being a health hazard? Yes. MR. COOK: Let's go off the record. Some more lawyers have arrived. THE TECHNICIAN: Off the record at 8:18 PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 13 HENRY LICK 1 a.m. 2 Back on the record at 8:20 a.m. 3 MR. SHIPLEY: George Shipley for 4 Bridgestone Firestone. 5 MR. MC MAHAN: Troy McMahan of Hardin, Cook 6 in Oakland, California representing Ford. 7 BY MR. COOK: 8 Q. Sir, are you a medical doctor? 9 A. No. 10 Q . Do you have a P h .D .? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Do they call you Dr. Lick? What's the appropriate 13 thing for me to be addressing you? Is it Dr. Lick? 14 A. Call me Hank. 15 Q. Well, for purposes of the deposition - 16 A. You asked what they called me. 17 Q. I'll call you Dr. Lick, is that okay? 18 A. That's fine. 19 Q. Tell me about your educational background. 20 A. I've got an undergrad in industrial relations with 21 science, I've got one Master's degree inIndustrial 22 Hygiene, another Master's in Business 23 Administration, another Master's in Security. 24 My Ph.D. is from the College of Education 25 at Wayne State University and I did my dissertation PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 3 Q. 4 5 A. 6 Q. 7 A. 8 Q. 9 A. 10 11 Q. 12 13 A. 14 Q. 15 A. 16 Q. 17 A. 18 Q. 19 A. 20 Q. 21 22 23 A. 24 25 14 HENRY LICK on health and safety communication, which would be lock-out, tag-out. In any of those courses in college did you learn about the health hazards of asbestos? Yes. Which courses? Toxicology, principles of industrial hygiene. What years would that have been? They would have been -- those courses would have been in the early '80s. When did you first start work for Ford Motor Company? 1968. What was your job title at that point in time? Industrial hygienist. How long did you hold that job title? Through 1973. Then what was your job title? Senior industrial hygienist. If you can just go through your jobs and job titles for me in chronological order, that will make it faster. I hired in at Ford as an industrial hygienist doing everything for Ford and then in '73 I was promoted to senior industrial hygienist and I was in charge PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 3 4 Q. 5 A. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Q. 19 20 21 22 A. 23 Q. 24 25 A. 15 HENRY LICK of Philco-Ford. After Philco-Ford, I left Industrial Hygiene and went into Work Force Analysis and after that - Give me some years if you will, sir. '76 and '77 I was in Work Force Analysis. '77 through '80 I was in a department called Management Personnel. 1980 through 1985 I came back as an industrial hygiene associate, which is just a senior industrial hygienist, different title but working at all Ford locations again. 1985 through '87 I went out to the Transmission Division, Transmission Chassis Division of Ford as a division industrial hygienist and technical trainer. 1987 I came back as supervisor of Industrial Hygiene and later on the title was changed to manager of Industrial Hygiene. That's what I've done for 30 years at Ford. So for almost the last ten years you've held this position - - o r more than ten years, eleven years - you've held the position as supervisor of Industrial Hygiene? Manager of Industrial Hygiene. What does that mean from the standpoint of your job responsibilities? I have the total responsibility for anything at PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Q. 9 10 A. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Q. 18 A. 19 20 21 22 23 Q. 24 A. 25 Q. 16 HENRY LICK Ford globally that has to relate to worker occupational health as it refers to the typical occupational health hazards. Again, take away from being an occupational health physician. So things in the plants and/or with the products to a degree that affect the health of people come under my charge. When you talk about affect the health of people you're talking about the health of Ford employees? Generally, just the health of Ford employees. I will get involved on product-related issues where it's germane, something comes up in the dealership network that needs resolution. I do not work with dealership network but sometimes things will come up in the dealership network that just requires some counsel. Canyou give me an example of something like that? For instance, if we're asking the dealerships to install new paint booths or Ford Land will construct dealerships and so if Ford Land is going to be changing a paint booth, for instance, they might ask for expertise in that. How many industrial hygienists are under you? Right now, there are eight. How many overall people are under your management? PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 A. 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 7 A. 8 9 10 11 12 Q. 13 14 A. 15 Q. 16 A. 17 Q. 18 A. 19 Q. 20 A. 21 22 Q. 23 24 A. 25 Q. 17 HENRY LICK Ten. I know a little bit about the structure at Ford Motor Company, the personnel structure. How is your job classified if you relate it to something in either the auto field or the truck field in terms of rank or who you report to? I'm what they call on the supplemental compensation roll. That's the second rung up as far as management rolls go. It's a bonus position but it's not a highly paid bonus position. I don't walk away with the jewels. You told me the person you report to and I've already forgotten his name. Walter Telemonte. Who does he report to? He reports to an M.D. by name of Woodrow Meyers. What is that man's title? He's director of Health Care Management. Who does he report to? He reports to Robert Cramer who is the vice-president of Human Resources. In these jobs you've given me, which one of those jobs if any would occasionally deal with asbestos? The first two jobs for sure that you have there. I've got when you are an industrial hygienist in PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 18 HENRY LICK 1 1968 and then you worked for Philco-Ford in '73 to 2 '76? 3 A. Right. I did work also on asbestos at Philco-Ford 4 and then when I came back in 1980, I was doing 5 things with asbestos. 6 Q. Then from '80 on, is that right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Tell me, Dr. Lick,what your firstcontact with the 9 asbestos issue was in 1968. 10 MR. KRAUSE: Ask him if he had some in 11 1968. 12 BY MR. COOK: 13 Q. Well, in this timeframe. 14 A. In the 1968 to '73 timeframe. 15 Q. Right. 16 A. Probably, I think, about 1969, '69, '70, somewhere 17 in there, Sheldon Road plant. 18 Q. Tell me what that contact or matter was. 19 MR. KRAUSE: I think he already testified 20 they made heater housings that used asbestos. 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, just evaluating 22 the worker exposure there. 23 BY MR. COOK: 24 Q. What wasthe reason for evaluating theworker 25 exposure there? PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 A. 2 3 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Q. 14 15 A. 16 Q. 17 18 19 20 A. 21 22 Q. 23 A. 24 25 HENRY LICK Well, first of all, it was a job assignment. 19 Later on it became because OSHA was going to promulgate a standard. Initially it was just a job assignment. When you say just a job assignment, what do you mean by job assignment? A company like Ford has something like 2,000 locations. At that time we had maybe 120 manufacturing locations. So at that time there was only four of us so whatever needed looking at, whether it be lead, whether it be asbestos, solvents, that's your turn up in the barrel, that's what you did. How did asbestos come to your attention in this job assignment? In what respect? Well, at some point in time you became involved in looking at or dealing with some issue relating to asbestos. Was that something you initiated on your own, was it something that someone else initiated? No. Paul Toth, who was my supervisor, assigned me to that to do. Can you describe what your assignment was? It was to -- at that time, as long as you're talking about initial assignments, was to evaluate worker exposure at Sheldon Road. PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 Q. 2 A. 3 Q. 4 A. 5 Q. 6 A. 7 Q. 8 A. 9 Q. 10 A. 11 Q. 12 13 A. 14 15 16 Q. 17 18 A. 19 Q. 20 21 A. 22 23 24 Q. 25 20 HENRY LICK Worker exposure to? Asbestos. Mr. Toth gave you that assignment? Yes. Is Mr. Toth still working for Ford Motor Company? No. Where is Mr. Toth? He's retired. Do you know where he lives? Yes. Allen Park, Michigan. What did you do in order to carry out this job assignment? Went out to the plant, took care of samples, took ventilation measurements, looked at the overall flow of material in the plant. Prior to this job assignment did you know anything about asbestos? Yes. How did you gain knowledge about asbestos prior to this job assignment? I was trained as an industrial hygienist in the Air Force, 1961 through '65, and also worked for an insurance company locally. Let's talk about the Air Force first. What did you learn about asbestos in the Air Force? PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 A. 2 Q. 3 A. 4 5 Q. 6 A. 7 8 Q. 9 A. 10 11 12 Q. 13 14 A. 15 16 Q. 17 18 A. 19 Q. 20 21 A. 22 Q. 23 A. 24 25 21 HENRY LICK That it was a lung inhalation hazard. Specifically where did that training occur? Place called Gunner Air Force Base, Montgomery, Alabama. What was the nature of this training? It was classroom training, you know. Like the military generally does things, intensive training. What was the military training you to be? It was called a preventative medicine and industrial hygiene technician, later to be called a military public health occupational medicine technician. As part of that training you learned about asbestos for the first time? Yes. Learned about the health hazards of asbestos for the first time. Can you be more specific as to when during that 1961 to 1965 timeframe you would have learned about that? 1961. Can you remember what health hazard was associated with asbestos in this training in 1961? Mostly pneumoconiosis-type diseases. For those of us that are not as -Just filling of the lungs with fibers and calcification. Filling the lungs with fibers and/or dust is typically a pneumoconiosis. What PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 3 4 5 6 Q. 7 8 A. 9 Q. 10 11 A. 12 13 Q. 14 15 16 A. 17 18 Q. 19 20 A. 21 22 23 24 Q. 25 22 HENRY LICK happens, the lungs tend to react to the fibers or particles, depends on where in the lungs they settle but essentially it's a calcification of the lungs that reduces the amount of lung capacity that you have. Is this a delayed reaction or does it occur immediately? No, it's a delayed reaction. Is there some type of generally accepted timeframe for that? If you're talking present knowledge, typically you'd see it in ten years. Most quotes are 20 years. Now, back in 1961 what precautions if any was the Air Force taking in regard to avoiding exposure of their troops to asbestos? Nothing unique, nothing unique. Just controlling overall dust. When you say nothing unique, can you explain what you mean by controlling overall dust? Well, you treat it like a normal dust hazard. Now, you treat asbestos as a carcinogen so there are lots of precautions you take but asbestos was lumped with everything else as something you controlled. When you say lumped with everything else, what is everything else? PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 A. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Q. 10 A. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Q. 18 19 A. 20 Q. 21 22 23 A. 24 Q. 25 A. 23 HENRY LICK Silica, overall dust, all of the various dusts that you might be exposed to, plastic dust, whatever. It was lumped as far as the control technology with all of those. They all had different kinds of threshold limit values applied to them but it was essentially the same types of controls that you would use, anywhere from respirators to local exhaust ventilation. Where was the exposure in the Air Force to asbestos? They would have -- I didn't do, first of all, let me say I didn't do any exposure monitoring for asbestos in the Air Force. But the Air Force also used asbestos in the same fashion as everyone else. They used it in gaskets, in brake material, they would have used it in insulating materials, wrapping jet engines with it, things like that. The thermal blanket in wrapping the jet engines, is that right? Yeah. Now, this training in 1961 and 1965, was there any type of manuals that you were given or anything of that nature? Yes. Do youstill have any of those? I still have some. PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 Q. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A. 10 Q. 11 12 A. 13 14 15 16 Q. 17 18 A. 19 20 21 Q. 22 23 24 25 HENRY LICK I would ask that you save those manuals. 24 We will file a motion for production with the court and to the extent that you can find them and your lawyer can advise you on that, we would like to see those. Now, did they understand at that point in time in your training in the Air Force that exposure to asbestos would actually create a disease or could cause a disease called asbestosis? Yes. Was it understood that the asbestosis could result in death? Generally at that time when you talked about asbestosis, it wasn't a disease you talked about resulting in death. It was a disease that was limiting. By limiting, you mean disabling to the person that suffered from the disease? Well, it could be disabling but typically what you would see is they have some sort of reduced lung function. That might span a large scale of reduced lung functions up to the point that some people might be totally disabled from it, is that fair? MR. KRAUSE: I don't know that this witness is that much of an expert in asbestosis to answer PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 25 HENRY LICK 1 that question. 2 MR. COOK: I'm not asking him that today. 3 I'm just asking about then in 1961 what the Air 4 Force was teaching you. 5 BY MR. COOK: 6 Q. Were they teaching you that the range of exposure 7 might result in anywhere from mild restriction of 8 lung function to total disability? 9 A. They regarded asbestos as one of the more serious 10 types of particles, aerosols, same like silica, that 11 type of thing. But it wasn't, for instance, like 12 beryllium. 13 Q. Can you remember just this specific and if you can't 14 that's fine -- I know it's been a long time -- as to 15 whether or not back in 1961 and 1965 the Air Force 16 was telling you that asbestosis could be a disabling 17 disease? 18 A. It was mentioned but it was never mentioned as a big 19 deal. 20 Q. Now, beryllium was mentioned as a big deal? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. Now, that was your first instance where there was 23 educational information aboutasbestos? 24 A. Right. 25 Q. What wasthe next one? Youtold me a minute ago PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 A. 5 6 Q. 7 A. 8 Q. 9 A. 10 11 12 13 Q. 14 15 A. 16 Q. 17 18 A. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 HENRY LICK and again -I don't think I mentioned the next one to you. What was the next one, then? Well, if you were looking for the formal setting it would have been in classwork. Classwork? in the '80s. What about informal settings? Informal settings, you would go to various conferences and the like, American Industrial Hygiene Conference and things such as that. There would be papers given. Did you regularly attend the American Industrial Hygiene Conference? Yes. Can you tell me the organizations inyourfield that you're a member of? American Industrial Hygiene Association andMichigan Industrial Hygiene Society. That's the professional organizations. And I'm also certified by the American Board of Industrial Hygiene, certified by the Board of Safety Professionals, certified as registered occupational hygienist in Canada and also licensed industrial hygienist in the state of Illinois. PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 2 Q. 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 8 9 A. 10 11 12 13 14 Q. 15 16 A. 17 18 Q. 19 A. 20 21 22 Q. 23 24 25 A. 27 HENRY LICK I guess that takes care of it. After you got out of the Air Force in 1965, what did you do next? I worked for Michigan Mutual Liability Company. That's what I was trying to remember. You said you ran into asbestos in some manner there. How while working for Michigan Mutual Liability did you run into asbestos? Just as a part of -- you did evaluation of the insured and it would be part of the -- you look at 30 plants a week depending on where you were at and you just run across it. It's just a normal part of doing business. Let me understand what your job was for Michigan Mutual Liability Company. For the first few years I was an industrial hygienist for them. What were your job responsibilities? I ran the laboratory plus also I went out and visited companies that they insured, typically small business. Is that when you would deal with the asbestos issue when you were going out to these smaller companies they insured? Yes. PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 Q. 2 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 A. 7 8 9 10 Q. 11 12 A. 13 14 Q. 15 16 A. 17 Q. 18 19 A. 20 Q. 21 22 A. 23 Q. 24 25 28 HENRY LICK Why were you interested on behalf of Michigan Mutual Liability Company and whether or not there was asbestos at these companies they insured? Because pneumoconiosis was a compensable disease. What does that mean in layman's terms? It means that as people have reduced lung function they typically file Workers' Compensation claims and ask for whatever the table shows as for compensation. That was here in the state of Michigan under their Workers' Compensation laws? Yes. State of Michigan, Indiana, some in Ohio but mostly Michigan. Did any of those small companies that you visited supply parts to the automobile industry? Yes. Did any of them supply parts containing asbestos to the automobile industry? I do not recall. Do you recall there being asbestos in some of these plants that you inspected? Yes. What did you do as an industrial hygienist for Michigan Mutual Liability Company when you ran into situations where there was asbestos at these plants? PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 A. 2 3 4 5 Q. 6 A. 7 8 Q. 9 10 11 12 13 A. 14 15 16 17 18 Q. 19 A. 20 Q. 21 A. 22 23 24 Q. 25 A. HENRY LICK It depends on how it was being used. 29 If it wasn't being used in any kind of situation that would generate any kind of dustiness, then not very much of anything. What if it was? Then we Would recommend ventilation controls for them. Then you said the first few years -- let me restate the question. What would you then do as an industrial hygienist if asbestos was found in any of these companies and it was in the air? If it was a situation that was regarded as not controlled according to the threshold limit values that we applied at that time then I would recommend some sort of ventilation controls or use of respirators. What respirators back then were you recommending? It would be a dual-cartridge respirator. Any particular manufacturers? Pretty much probably would be Mine Safety Appliances. Mine Safety controlled the market at that time. MSA? Yes, the U.S. Bureau of Mines approval. PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 1 Q. 2 3 4 A. 5 6 7 8 9 Q. 10 11 A. 12 Q. 13 A. 14 Q. 15 16 A. 17 Q. 18 A. 19 Q. 20 21 22 23 24 25 HENRY LICK Now, you said that for a while you did this. 30 At the end did you do something different, at the end of your tenure there? I did a combination of safety and Industrial Hygiene. Michigan Mutual was a big foundry insurer and they decided in 1967 that they weren't going to do foundries anymore so I was out of a job. Foundries was a big thing with us. Foundries involved exposure to asbestos, did they not? They could. In what setting were they involved with that? Probably more than not thermal insulation. Foundries also could potentially be a hazard for silicosis? Yes. In what setting? In making molds and cores. Are silicosis andasbestosis, are those similar type diseases? MR. KRAUSE: You're asking medical questions of this witness. I don't think he's qualified to answer that type of question, comparing one type of pneumoconiosis to another. THE WITNESS: They may have similar effects PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 31 HENRY LICK 1 when you talk about asbestos. Asbestosis and 2 silicosis but typically what happens is that 3 different areas of the lungs are involved. It 4 depends on how you read the X-ray. 5 BY MR. COOK: 6 Q. How do you know that? 7 A. Books. 8 Q. Do you know how to read X-rays? 9 A. N o . 10 Q. Now, after leaving Michigan Mutual Liability 11 Company, you went to work for Ford? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. We talked about the assignment at Sheldon Road? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Did you find whenyou did this air sampling that 16 changes needed to be made at the Sheldon Road plant? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What changes did yourecommend? 19 MR. KRAUSE: Counsel, the Sheldon Road 20 plant has absolutely nothing to do with brake 21 linings. Ford Motor Company had asbestos in various 22 forms at various plants around the country. If we 23 going to go through all those plants today we're 24 going to be here a very long time. 25 MR. COOK: Do you want to read back the PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 32 HENRY LICK 1 question to him? 2 3 (The reporter read the last question.) 4 5 THE WITNESS: Sheldon Road plant, 6 we recommended -- 7 MR. COOK: You may need to wait for your 8 lawyer. 9 BY MR. COOK: 10 Q. Which changes did you recommend? 11 MR. KRAUSE: I'm going to instruct this 12 witness not to answer questions about products other 13 than brake linings. We are not here to talk about 14 asbestos throughout the Ford Motor Company in the 15 world. We're here to talk about brake linings and 16 I'm not going to let him answer questions about 17 other types of occupational problems with asbestos 18 throughout Ford Motor Company. 19 MR. COOK: Well, now, sir, I have allowed 20 you to participate in this and I'm willing to allow 21 you to participate in this even though you're not 22 licensed in Texas as long as you follow the Texas 23 Rules and the Texas Rules are apparently not what 24 the rules are in Michigan. 25 This is a discovery deposition. I can ask PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 33 HENRY LICK 1 him any question that might lead to discoverable 2 evidence in the case. And it is inappropriate as I 3 understand the law -- and there are lots of other 4 Texas lawyers here so you can consult with them -- 5 to instruct the witness not to answer a question 6 unless as I understand the law, I'm violating some 7 type of privilege. 8 There's no motion for protection filed 9 in this to limit this deposition and I think this is 10 important evidence for me to discover in the case. 11 If you are going to instruct the witness 12 not to answer these types of questions, then I would 13 ask that Bernie do that since the Texas court has no 14 jurisdiction over you at this point in time to 15 enforce it and if does that, well, then, that's fine 16 and we will deal with that in front of the Texas 17 court. 18 You put me in a position where I have no 19 remedy if you act inappropriately under Texas Rules 20 and I don't want to be in that position. You can 21 understand that. 22 MR. KRAUSE: I can understand that but I've 23 instructed him not to answer anymore questions about 24 Sheldon Road period. 25 MR. COOK: Bernie, are you going to PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 34 HENRY LICK 1 instruct him likewise? 2 MR. GARZA: Well, here's the situation, 3 Russ. When we talked about Bob Krause being allowed 4 to represent the witness at the deposition without 5 having his pro hac vice filed, I was not told that 6 was provided he didn't make any objections. 7 MR. COOK: I think what Lynn told you and I 8 asked her about that was that we follow the Texas 9 Rules. 10 MR. GARZA: The issue here is we don't have 11 a plaintiff who is claiming exposure to insulation 12 at a Ford facility. That's the issue here. You 13 have someone who is claiming exposure to friction 14 products and so we're talking about two totally 15 different things. 16 So what does the Ford experience with 17 workers and insulation products have to do with the 18 plaintiff claiming exposure to a friction product? 19 That's the issue. 20 MR. COOK: Are you going to instruct the 21 witness not to answer? 22 MR. GARZA: At this time, yes. 23 MR. COOK: We're going to recess this 24 deposition and we're going to go to Houston and talk 25 to the judge about it and we will request the PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 35 HENRY LICK 1 witness be produced in Houston, Texas in regard to 2 finishing this deposition. 3 It is perfectly legitimate for me to ask 4 about Ford's knowledge of asbestos and what they did 5 for their own workers versus what they might have 6 done for brake workers generally. It's a relevant 7 inquiry, it certainly may lead to other discoverable 8 evidence in the case and if your position is going 9 to be obstructive in that regard then we're going to 10 stop and seek appropriate remedies with the court 11 and I assume that's what we're going to do, is that 12 right? 13 MR. KRAUSE: You can do whatever you want, 14 counsel. 15 MR. GARZA: Why don't we take a break and 16 we'll talk about it. 17 THE TECHNICIAN: Off the record at 8:50 18 a.m. 19 MR. COOK: I'm not going to proceed with 20 any depositions if I'm going to be -- if you're 21 going to try to impose some artificial limit on 22 discovery that's not in accordance with the Texas 23 Rules, if that's what going to happen, I don't want 24 to proceed until we have a court ruling. We're 25 coming back in a week and we may as well get some PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 36 HENRY LICK 1 guidelines from the court. 2 MR. KRAUSE: You can do what you want. I 3 d o n 't care what you d o . 4 MR. COOK: This is just so we're clear. 5 MR. KRAUSE: I understood that from the 6 start. I wasn't confused at all. 7 I think you have different witnesses. I 8 think Mr. Lick has a work history that involves Ford 9 throughout the United States and maybe Canada and 10 maybe other places. 11 Arnie Anderson is limited to brakes. I 12 have no knowledge of Arnie being involved in any 13 asbestos problems related to plants. If you want to 14 proceed with Arnie, we will proceed with Arnie. 15 It's up to you. 16 MR. COOK: If we proceed, are you going to 17 agree to follow Texas Rules? 18 MR. KRAUSE: I'm following Texas Rules now. 19 MR. COOK: No, you're not. 20 MR. KRAUSE: I'm not going to argue the 21 question with you. If you want to file a motion, be 22 my guest, file a motion. 23 I'm asking if you want to proceed with 24 Arnie Anderson. 25 MR. COOK: I will proceed with him until PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 37 _______________HENRY L I C K ________________________ 1 there1s some type of obstructive behavior and then I 2 will leave. 3 MR. KRAUSE: Fine. He's not going to be 4 here until 11. 5 MR. COOK: That's fine. Can we look at the 6 documents? 7 8 (A recess was taken.) 9 10 MR. COOK: Mr. Garza, we have taken a 11 break while you were going to consult with someone, 12 I guess, and I understand you're not changing 13 your position and you're not going to allow 14 the witness to answer that question and the witness 15 is gone, is that right? 16 MR. GARZA: That's right. 17 (Deposition concluded at 8:45 a.m.) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545 38 HENRY LICK 1 CERTIFICATE 2 STATE OF MICHIGAN 3 COUNTY OF LIVINGSTON ) ) SS: ) 4 5 I, PATRICIA R. MURRAY, Certified Shorthand 6 Reporter, a Notary Public, hereby certify that I recorded 7 in shorthand the examination of HENRY LICK, 8 the deponent in the foregoing deposition; and that prior 9 to the taking of said deposition the deponent was first 10 duly sworn, and that the foregoing is a true, correct and 11 complete transcript of the testimony of said deponent. 12 I further certify that no request was made for 13 submission of the transcript to the deponent for reading 14 and signature and that no such submission was made. 15 16 PATRICIA R. MURRAY, CSR-2155 17 Notary Public, Livingston County, Michigan 18 My commission expires: 1/27/01 19 Dated: This 5th day of May, 1998. 20 21 22 23 24 25 PATRICIA MURRAY & ASSOCIATES BRIGHTON (810) 229-8238 ANN ARBOR (313) 995-9545