Document 3QK2BXJGGGjowrykZybBZXwvO

1 IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES 3 --oOo-- 4 TRANSWESTERN PIPELINE COMPANY, a Delaware 5 corporation, ) ) ) ) 6 PI aintiff, ) 7 VS. ) ) No. BC 026959 8 THE MONSANTO COMPANY and ) ) DOES 1- 200, inclusive, ) 9) Defendants. ) 10 ) 11 12 13 14 DEPOSITION OF 15 JAMES E. SPRINGGATE 16 17 August 14, 1992 18 19 Volume 1 20 2 1 (Pages 1 - 178) 22 2 3 CERTIFIED COPY 24 25 REPORTED BY: ROSE KIEHN, CSR No. 3268 (40554) 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 ;an Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 ^2-, C2, / / Czt <--f FAX 415-51 ?-1 ?41 1 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027811 I 1 INDEX 2 3 EXAMINATION BY: 4 MS. GRADY 5 AFTERNOON SESSION 6 PLAINTIFF'S FOR IDENTIFICATION DESCRIPTION 7 8 539 Organization Charts 9 541 10 Correspondence, 1/12/67, FROM D.V.N. Hardy, London, TO P.G. Benignus, et al. 11 545 12 Correspondence, 3/3/69, TO Robert T. Innis, FROM Elmer P. Wheeler 13 547 14 Correspondence, 3/6/69, W.R. Richard - Research TO E. Wheeler - EWHEE FROM Center, 15 548 16 17 Correspondence, 5/13/69, SUBJECT Aroclor - Analysis in Pesticide Residues, TO File, FROM W.R. Richard 18 550 19 20 Cover Letter, 6/4/69, FROM E.P. Wheeler, TO Howard S. Bergen, Jr., et al., and Handwritten Notes 2 1 551 22 Correspondence, 6/10/69, FROM J.E. Springgate 2 3 552 Handwritten Notes, 8/25/69 24 553 Correspondence, 8/25/69, TO Martin W. Farrar, FROM E.V. John PAGE 7 93 PAGE 34 41 42 59 64 69 74 79 86 t9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 U 5-512-1234 -combsfi iner FAX 415-512-1241 2 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMONOQ27812 1 EXHIBITS (continued) PAGE 2 555 3 Report of Aroclor "Ad Hoc" Committee, 10/2/69 87 4 557 5 Correspondence, 10/27/69, SUBJECT PCB Pollution Problem CDC Presentation, TO D.B. Hosmer 99 6 559 7 PCB Presentation to Corporate Development Committee 107 8 560 9 Minutes of Meeting of Corporate Development November 17, 1969 the Committee; 117 10 5 6 1 11 Monsanto - Organic Chemicals Division; Public Relations Report; October, 1969 123 12 5 6 6 13 14 Report of Meeting with Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food; Fisheries Laboratory, Burnham-On-Crouch; in London on 27th January, 1970 126 15 568 16 Correspondence, 2/18/70, FROM Donald A. Olson 130 17 57 2 18 Correspondence, 3/30/70, FROM St. Louis, TO W.B. Papageorge 13 2 19 574 20 21 Correspondence, 4/7/70, TO H.S. Bergen, FROM W.B. Papageorge, and Management Plan, Polychlorinated Biphenyl Environmental Problem 133 22 575 23 24 Correspondence, 4/9/70, FROM St. Louis - General Offices, TO W.B. Papageorge, SUBJECT PCB's Management Plan 139 25 9 Stevenj 3t, Suite 400 ian Franci: CA 94105 15-512-1234 CQ ,bs*S inc: CA V /II R-R1 0-1 O/ll 3 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027813 1 EXHIBITS (continued) PAGE 2 578 3 Minutes of Meeting of the Corporate Management Committee April 20, 1970 142 4 579 5 Correspondence, 4/17/70, TO W.B. Papageorge, FROM R.E. Keller 143 6 58 1 7 Correspondence, G. Robert Sido, Papageorge 4/28/70, TO FROM W.B. 144 8 58 3 9 Correspondence, 4/28/70, TO W.E. Schalk, et al., FROM J.E. Springgate 146 10 586 11 Cover Letter, 5/11/70, TO H.S. Bergen, et al., FROM John Mason, and attachments 148 12 587 13 Correspondence, 5/27/70, TO J.R. Durland - Tokyo, FROM W.B. Papageorge 149 14 588 15 Correspondence, 5/27/70, TO H.S. Bergen, et al., FROM W.B. Papageorge 152 16 594 17 Correspondence, 7/28/70, TO John Mason, FROM W.B. Papageorge 153 18 595 19 20 597 21 22 598 23 24 600 25 Correspondence, 8/18/70, TO D.S. Cameron - Brussels, FROM W.B. Papageorge - St. Louis Correspondence, 10/6/70, TO P.J.A. Marsh - Brussels, et al., FROM W.B. Papageorge - St.Louis Correspondence, 7/7/70, TO P.J.A. Marsh - Brussels, FROM W.B. Papageorge Progress Report, For October 1971, 10/29/71, St. Louis South Second Street 155 157 160 163 .9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 Jan Francisco, CA 94105 .15-512-1234 eomhsiS me: FAX 415-512-1241 4 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027814 1 EXHIBITS (continued) PAGE 2 601 3 Aroclor Plasticizer Withdrawal Plan, 12/7/71 165 4 602 5 Correspondence, 12/27/71, TO C.P. Cunningham, FROM H.S. Bergen 168 6 603 7 Correspondence, 1/28/72, FROM Edmund Greene 169 8 6 04 9 Correspondence, 2/10/72, H.S. Bergen, FROM W.B. Papageorge TO 170 10 606 11 Call Report, Monsanto Industrial Chemicals Co., DATE OF CALL 7/11/74, 171 12 6 12 13 Info used by J. Mason to report to CMC in March 1971. No written commentary was prepared. 172 14 613 15 Minutes of Meeting of the Corporate Management Committee May 11, 1970 . 175 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 combsfi me: ca v /i i o.-i 04-1 5 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027815 i IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES --O0O-- 4 TRANSWESTERN PIPELINE COMPANY, a Delaware ) ) 5 corporation, ) ) 6 Plaintiff, ) 7 vs. ) ) ) 8 THE MONSANTO COMPANY and ) DOES 1- 200, inclusive, ) 9) Defendants. ) 10 11 12 -- o 0 o -- 13 BE IT REMEMBERED that, pursuant to 14 stipulation, and on Friday, August 14, 1992, 15 commencing at 10:00 a.m., thereof, at 505 16 Montgomery Street, San Francisco, California, 17 before me, ROSE KIEHN, a Certified Shorthand 18 Reporter, personally appeared 19 JAMES E. SPRINGGATE 20 called as a witness by the Plaintiff, who having 2 1 been first duly sworn, was examined and testified 22 as foilows: 2 3 -- oOo -- 2 4 SHEARMAN & STERLING, 725 South Figueroa 25 Street, Twenty-first Floor, Los Angeles, California 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-51 2-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 6 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027816 1 90017-5421, represented by JANET M. GRADY, Attorney 2 at Law, appeared as counsel on behalf of the 3 Plaintiff. 4 BRONSON, BRONSON & McKINNON, 505 5 Montgomery Street, San Francisco, California 6 94111-2514, represented by CHARLES F. PREUSS, 7 Attorney at Law, appeared as counsel on behalf of 8 the Defendants. 9 -- oOo -- 10 EXAMINATION BY MS. GRADY 11 MS. GRADY: Q. Good morning, 12 Mr. Springgate. My name is Janet Grady and I 13 represent Transwestern Pipeline Company in this 14 litigation. 15 Mr. Springgate, have you ever had your 16 deposition taken before? 17 A. Yes, I have. 18 Q. And could you give me the summary of the 19 litigation in which your deposition was taken? 2 0 A. The subject was Agent Orange 245T 2 1 herbicide, and the defendant was Monsanto Company, 2 2 and the plaintiff was a group. 2 3 Q. Class action? 24 A. I am not sure. It was a large group that 2 5 was put together for a case that occurred -- the 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 Jan Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 7 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027817 t 1 case went to court in New York. 2 Q. Approximately when was your deposition 3 taken? 4 A. Eight years ago, more or less. 5 Q. Other than in the litigation involving 6 Agent Orange, have you ever had your deposition 7 taken? 8 A. I don't -- not that I recall. 9 Q. Have you ever provided a statement under 10 oath in connection with your employment with 11 Monsanto? 12 A. Not that I recall. 13 Q. Have you ever acted as an advisor or a 14 consultant on litigation involving Monsanto? 15 A. Yes, I am sure I have. 16 Q. And on what litigation was that? 17 A. Advisor or consultant? Probably the -- I 18 would think the 245T Agent Orange subject. As a 19 consultant, it covers a lot of territory because 2 0 for a long time I have been in a position of being 2 1 a consultant as an employee of Monsanto. I have - 2 2 I have even consulted for Monsanto for one year 2 3 after I retired. And I was an advisor on some 24 Monsanto personnel cases during that period of 2 5 time . 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 Ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 8 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027818 1 Q. Have you ever acted as a consultant to 2 Monsanto on PCB litigation? 3 A. I don't believe I have. 4 Q. Have you ever acted as an expert witness? 5 A. I was involved in a case for a company 6 other than Monsanto after I retired where I was to 7 be the expert witness in a -- and I consulted with 8 their law firm. The case was actually settled and 9 didn't go to court. 10 Q. Did that litigation involve PCBs? 11 A. No, it didn't. 12 Q. Have you ever testified in court before? 13 A. No . 14 Q. What was the nature of the expertise that 15 you offered in your engagement as a potential 16 expert witness? 17 A. The subject of -- was a contract on the 18 product called polysilicon, which Monsanto was a 19 purchaser and user of the material for the business 2 0 that I was in prior to my retirement. The company 2 1 I consulted with was Union Carbide Corporation. 2 2 Q. And was the -- was the subject matter of 2 3 your potential testimony the contract aspect or 2 4 something else? 2 5 A. It was -- it was, I think, somewhat 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 H 5-512-1234 combsA lliV CAV /IIC-RIO.IO/H 9 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027819 1 different than that. It was industry use and 2 practice in regard to the polysilicon subject. 3 Q. Let me go over the ground rules that we 4 use in depositions even though you have had your 5 deposition taken and I am sure you have consulted 6 with your counsel. You understand that you are 7 under oath today and your testimony is just as if 8 you were testifying in a court of law? 9 A. I understand. 10 Q. You will have a chance to review the 11 record after the deposition concludes. The 12 reporter will send you a copy of the transcript and 13 you will have a chance to correct any errors or 14 inaccuracies that exist in the transcript, but it's 15 important that we try to get as complete and 16 accurate a record today as is possible. 17 Do you understand that? 18 A. I understand. 19 Q. So that we can get an accurate record, 2 0 it's important that I wait until you finish your 2 1 answer and if you could, wait until I finish my 2 2 question before you respond to make it easier for 2 3 the reporter. Can you do that? 24 A. All right. 2 5 Q. It is also important that you understand t9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 H 5-512-1234 Comtek inc. CAV 10 42 Digital Drive. Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027820 - 1 the questions that I ask you today. So if you 2 believe that you do not understand a question, can 3 you please bring that to my attention? 4 A. I will. 5 Q. Thank you. Are you under any medication 6 today that would prevent you from giving accurate 7 and truthful testimony? 8 A. No, I am not. 9 Q. Is there any other reason you feel you 10 cannot give accurate and truthful testimony today? 11 A. No, there isn't. 12 Q. I will try to take a break about every 13 hour, hour-and-a-half; but if at any time you would 14 like to take a break either to consult with your 15 lawyer or for any other reason, please let me know. 16 A. All right. 17 Q. I will be asking you questions today 18 about events and documents, some of which were 19 drafted and took place many years ago. I am 2 0 entitled to your best recollection as you sit here 2 1 today. That means that if you have some 22 recollection responsive to the question I pose to 2 3 you, that I am entitled to that recollection. 24 Do you understand that? . 2 5 A. I understand. 9 Stevenson St.. Suite 400 !an Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 inc: CAS/ A AC CIO.IO/H 11 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027821 1 Q Are you represented here today, 2 Mr. Springgate? 3 A. Yes, I am. 4 Q. And Mr. Preuss is your lawyer? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. Could you please summarize for me your 7 education after high school? 8 A. I have a B.S. degree in chemical 9 engineering from the University of Missouri, and I 10 have an M.S. degree in chemical engineering from 11 Washington University in St. Louis, Missouri, and I 12 have advanced management training from Stanford 13 University's executive management course. 14 Q. In what year did you receive your B.S. 15 degree? 16 A. In 1950 . 17 Q. And what about your M.S. degree? 18 A. 1955. 19 Q. When did you take the advanced management 2 0 training? 2 1 A . 1974. 2 2 Q. What was your first job after you 2 3 graduated from college? 2 4 A. I went to work for Monsanto Company. 25 That was my first employment after college. Stevenson St., Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 n 5-512-1234 eo l_ 11IV,. FAX 415-512-1241 12 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027822 1 Q. What year was that? 2 A. That was in September of 1950. 3 Q. You mentioned that you are retired from 4 Monsanto; is that correct? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. What year did you retire? 7 A. I retired 1989, March 31st, 1989. 8 Q. Everyone remembers the exact date of 9 their retirement. I don't know why that is. 10 MR. PREUSS: When you retire, you 11 probably will. 12 MS. GRADY: I am already planning it. 13 Q. And you mentioned that you acted as a 14 consultant for Monsanto for one year after you 15 retired? 16 A. That is correct. 17 Q. Do you have any current employment or 18 consulting arrangements with Monsanto? 19 A. I do not. 2 0 Q. Are you currently employed? 2 1 A. My only business activity today is that I 2 2 am a member of the Board of Directors of a small 2 3 company in Silicon Valley that produces equipment 24 for the electronics industry and for that I receive 2 5 stock options. So it's not obviously a yes or a 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 r-A v/ a a c c a r> A rt a A 13 ....... 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9............ Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027823 I 1 no. Other than that, I am not currently employed 2 by anyone. 3 Q. And what is the name of the company? 4 A. Asyst Technology, A-s-y-s-t. 5 Q. In the year that you consulted or had a 6 consulting arrangement for Monsanto after you 7 retired, did Monsanto call upon you to offer 8 consulting expertise? 9 A. Yes, they did. 10 Q. What was the nature of the consulting? 11 A. The nature of that was the silicon 12 business that I -- from which I had just retired. 13 Q. Okay. What I would like to do is just 14 briefly go over your job history at Monsanto. It 15 obviously spans quite a number of years. So can 16 we -- can we start with your first job in -- that 17 you had with Monsanto and work forward to the 18 present? What was your first position with 19 Monsanto? 2 0 A. The first job was in an engineering group 2 1 in the Queeny plant of Monsanto in St. Louis. 2 2 Q. And what was the nature of your job 23 24 A. It was designing and installing 2 5 modifications to manufacturing equipment in that 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 me: FAy Alfi-KIP-IPAI 14 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027824 i 1 manufacturing plant. 2 Q. So did this call upon your education as a 3 chemical engineer? 4 A. Yes, it did. 5 Q. Were these chemical manufacturing 6 processes? 7 A. Yes, a chemical manufacturing plant and 8 chemical manufacturing processes. 9 Q. And how long did you have that job? 10 A. Approximately two years, after which I 11 moved to manufacturing supervision at the same 12 location. This is chemical manufacturing 13 supervision. 14 Q. So that was in approximately 1952? 15 A. Ye s. 16 Q. What products were being produced that 17 you were supervising the manufacturing? 18 A . Benz oic acid. 19 Q. And could you spell that for the 2 0 reporter, please? 2 1 A. B-e-n-z-o-i-c, I think. Yes, 2 2 B-e-n-z-o-i-c, benzoic acid. 2 3 Q. What were the commercial uses? What were 2 4 they in 1952? 2 5 A. It was generally a food preservative. If 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 Jan Francisco, CA 94105 H 5-512-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 15 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027825 ri 1 you look at the fine print on a bottle of fruit 2 juice, it will say one/tenth of one percent sodium 3 benzoic added as a food preservative. 4 Q. How many people reported to you in that 5 position? 6 A. Probably 30. 7 Q. What were the nature of their 8 responsibilities? Did you have chemists? Were 9 these line workers that reported to you? 10 A. Right. I was really responsible -- the 11 person reporting directly to me would have been 12 called a foreman. People who reported to him in 13 return were the hourly paid workers who operated 14 the manufacturing equipment around the clock, 24 15 hours a day, seven days a week. . 16 Q. What was the next position that you held? 17 A. The next position was a -- called 18 maintenance supervisor and maintenance supervisor 19 was maintaining the chemical equipment, repairing 2 0 chemical equipment and installing new chemical 2 1 manufacturing equipment. 2 2 Q. And how long did you hold that position? 2 3 A. About three years. 2 4 Q. How long were you a manufacturing 2 5 supervisor? 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 16 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027826 i 1 A. Well, let's see. Let me calculate here 2 for a second. 3 Q. Yeah. 4 A. It's hard to get the time. Say 5 approximately three years. 6 Q. So you were a manufacturing supervisor 7 until about 1955? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. And then you became a maintenance 10 supervisor. And how long did you hold that 11 position ? 12 A. Approximately four years. 13 Q. So until about 1959? 14 A. About 1959. 15 Q. Did you go to school to get your M.S. 16 degree while you were working? 17 A. Yes, I did. 18 Q. Then what was the next position you held 19 after maintenance supervisor? 2 0 A. The position was maintenance 2 1 superintendent. 2 2 Q. How did that position differ from the one 2 3 that preceded it? 24 A. This was the next level of supervision. 2 5 So I had eight to ten maintenance supervisors 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400. ian Francisco, CA 9.4105 15-512-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 17 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027827 I reporting to me. Q. Were these all within the Queeny plant? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. About how many people were employed at 5 the Queeny plant during the time that you were 6 maintenance superintendent? 7 A. Total personnel was approximately 1,200 8 people. 9 Q. Were Aroclors manufactured at the Queeny 10 plant during the time you were maintenance 11 supervisor or superintendent? 12 A. I don't -- I don't recall. I don't think 13 so. The answer is really I don't recall. 14 Q. Okay. I take it you don't -- let me 15 just ask the question. Do you recall ever 16 installing any equipment to be used to produce 17 Aroclors in the Queeny plant? 18 A. I don't recall that. 19 Q. How did you first come to hear about 2 0 PCBs ? 2 1 A. At a later time in my life I was 2 2 responsible for the plasticizer group of Monsanto products which included some Aroclor products. Q. Okay. Maybe wewill move forward to that. 9 Stevenson St,, Suite 400 >an Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 c 1 n, 11IV,. rA V AAC. C40 A O A A 18 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMONOQ27828 1 A. We will get to that. 2 Q. So from 1959 on until some period you 3 were a maintenance superintendent in the Queeny 4 plant, correct? 5 A. For three years. 6 Q. And then what was your next position 7 after that? 8 A. I was a manufacturing superintendent and 9 transferred to the Nitro, West Virginia plant. 10 Q. What were your duties as manufacturing 11 superintendent? 12 A. Supervised a group of manufacturing 13 supervisors who in turn managed operating units 14 producing chemical products at the Nitro plant. 15 Q. What did the Nitro plant produce in 1962 16 or thereabouts? 17 A. Rubber chemical products, agricultural 18 chemical products, meaning herbicides and animal 19 food supplements. 2 0 Q. And how long were you a manufacturing 2 1 superintendent in Nitro or at Nitro? 22 A. Two years, two years until 1964. 1964 I 2 3 became a plant manager of the Nitro plant. 24 Q. And how long were you plant manager? 2 5 A. 1964 until 1968. 9 Stevenson St.. Suite 400 an Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 comtefi. me: CAV /HC_C10.10/H 19 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027829 -,r\ 1 Q. And what was your next position after 2 that? 3 A. I trans;ferred back to St. Louis to 4 Monsanto's headquarters, and I was a project 5 director for the engineering and construction of a 6 manufacturing plant that was to be installed in 7 Texas City, Texas. 8 Q. What was to be produced at the plant? 9 A. A product called Santicizer 711. 1 0 Q. What is Santicizer 711? 11 A. Santicizer is a plasticizer used 12 primarily in vinyl plastics to soften the plastic 13 material, the vinyl. And a typical use would have 14 been -- for an end use would have been the seat 15 covers in automobiles, the ones that are--- look 16 like leather, but are-ftt--L-e-atrh-e-r or ^softened 17 vinyl. And Sanitizer 711 was the leading product 18 for that use. 19 Q. And how long were you director for 2 0 engineering and construction of this plant down in 2 1 Texas City? 2 2 A. Now, that was when it was called a 2 3 project director. 24 Q. I am sorry. I have got that right here, 2 5 project director. 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 Jan Francisco, CA 94105 H 5-512-1234 cm 20 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027830 l 1 A. For some portion of one year, I think it 2 was less than a full year. 3 Q. What was your next position after that? 4 A. My next position was business director, 5 plasticizers. 6 Q. What were your job responsibilities as 7 business director? 8 A. The job responsibilities included the 9 manufacturer of plasticizers, the research and 10 development efforts on the plasticizers, marketing 11 of the plasticizers, being responsible for the 12 profitability of that group. 13 Q. When did you become the business director 14 15 A. Sometime in the 1969 to early '70 period. 16 And I don't have a clear recollection of the date. 17 Q. And was that a position in St. Louis? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. Was there anyone above you that was 2 0 responsible for the plasticizer business alone in 2 1 Monsanto? 2 2 A. Not alone. The organization was such 2 3 that I was the plasticizer director. I had a boss 2 4 who was responsible for plasticizers plus general 2 5 chemicals plus something else. And then there i9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 n 5-51 2-1234 cornhs. me: FAY A-\R-R-\0--\0A-\ 21 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027831 1 would have been another higher level of echelon who 2 was -- so I was the head of the plasticizer 3 business unit, if you will. 4 Q. Have we missed the time when you first 5 became aware of PCBs, or is that right about now? 6 A. That should have been while I was the 7 plasticizer director. It should have been about 8 that point in time. 9 Q. And do you recall how you became aware of 10 the existence of PCBs? 11 A. Well, PCBs or Aroclors in Monsanto 12 terminology was one of the products of the product 13 group that I was responsible for. So in our list 14 of products that we manufactured and sold, Aroclors 15 were one of those products. That's how I first 16 heard of PCBs. 17 Q. Which Aroclors did the plasticizer group 18 manufacture and sell? 19 A. I could not tell you the -- the numbers 2 0 of the products. I could only broadly say that 2 1 those that were called Santicizer number so and so 22 were plasticizers. The other use for PCBs was what 23 we called functional fluids. And they had different numbers and terminology in functional fluids. So I can't really recall the Santicizer 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 1 fLt o inc: A A C C A r\ A r\ AA 22 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027832 1 numbers that went with the Aroclors. 2 Q. The plasticizer group was responsible for 3 the manufacturing, research and development, 4 marketing of all of the Santicizers; is that 5 6 A. That is correct, but I need to clarify. 7 Q. Sure. 8 A. We had two different business units 9 selling PCBs to end markets. One of them was the 10 plasticizer use and the other one was the 11 functional fluids use. And my recollection is that 12 all of those products were made at the same 13 location, manufactured by the same people. And I 14 say I was responsible for manufacturing, meaning I 15 had a manufacturing director who would visit that 16 plant and see that the Santicizer products were 17 being made in the quantity that we needed, the 18 quality that we needed. At the same time someone 19 from the functional fluids group was visiting that 2 0 plant to see that those needed for the functional 2 1 fluids were being made in the proper quantity and 2 2 qua1ity. 2 3 There's another agency called the plant 24 manager who would see they were being made 2 5 properly, the people weren't being injured and so 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 CQ 23 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027833 1 forth. So when I say when you say who is 2 responsible for the manufacture of Aroclors, there 3 were really three different parties. Each had a 4 portion of it. 5 Q. What plant were the Aroclors manufactured 6 at in? 7 A. Well, I recall the Anniston, Alabama 8 plant. And I don't -- to the best of my knowledge, 9 there weren't any others in the United States. To 10 the best of my recollection, there were no others 11 in the United States. That was the only one, as 12 far as I recall. 13 Q. What about -- is it pronounced Krummrich? 14 A. Krummrich. 15 Q. Were any -- where is that plant located? 16 A. In East St. Louis, Illinois. 17 Q. Do you recall any manufacturing of 18 Santicizers at the Krummrich plant? 19 A. I don't recall. I really don't. 2 0 Q. Monsanto also had a plant in Newport, 2 1 which I believe is in Wales; is that correct? 2 2 A. Correct. 2 3 Q. Were any of the Santicizers during your 24 period as business director manufactured in Wales? 2 5 A. I simply don't recall. 9 Stevenson!3t., Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAY A 1S-K19.1941 24 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027834 Q. So your best recollection is it was Anniston? 3 A. That's the one I do recall, yes. 4 Q. Do you recall that there was more than 5 one plant providing Santicizers for your group? 6 A. My recollection would be it was only the 7 Anniston plant, but that's my recollection. 8 Q. How long did you hold the post of 9 business director of plasticizers? 10 A. Sometime about 1973 and I became general 11 manager of plasticizers and process chemicals. And 12 in about 1974 I became general manager of 13 phosphates and detergents. And in 1975 I 14 transferred to California as general manager of the 15 silicon business. And there were -- so I have 16 described four different jobs over about a 17 five-year period. And I am really confused as to 18 what those dates were. 19 Q. Okay. We have some organization charts 2 0 that might help. 2 1 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. General manager for plasticizers, how 2 3 does that differ from business director for 24 A. I would say it doesn't, not greatly. It 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 combs. me: CAV A4C CHO 40 A 4 25 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027835 1 means I didn't have that next level of boss and 2 instead I reported to someone at a higher level, 3 but the responsibilities were essentially the same. 4 Q. What were your job responsibilities as 5 general manager of phosphates and general 6 detergents? 7 A. Responsible for the research and 8 development efforts for the manufacturing of those 9 products, for the sales of those products, and for 10 the profitability of those products. 11 Q. Let me go back to 1973 for just a second 12 because I think I did not get your full title. You 13 were general manager, plasticizers and specialty 14 chemicals? 15 A. Process chemicals. 16 Q. Process chemicals. What are process 17 chemicals? 18 A. Process chemicals were heavy acids like 19 hydrochloride acid and sulfuric acid and broadly 2 0 used general chemicals like phthalic ma-l-e-icr^and 21 2 2 Q. In 1974 was Monsanto still in the 2 3 plasticizer business? 2 4 A. 1974? 2 5 Q. Uh-huh. 19 Stevenson St,, Suite 400 5an Francisco, CA 94105 H5-512-1234 1 A. c II FAX 415-512-1241 26 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027836 1 A . Yes. 2 Q. So after you left the position as general 3 manager of plasticizers, there were still sales of 4 plasticizers being made by Monsanto? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. During the time that you were business 7 director for plasticizers, were the Aroclors 8 removed from those products? 9 A. I think. 10 MR. PREUSS: Let me just object on 11 vagueness. You mean in 1973 were they removed or 12 by 1973 or during the year 1973? I think your 13 question is a little vague or at least I would like 14 to get it clarified. 15 MS. GRADY: Okay. Let me restate it. 16 Q. During the time you were business 17 director between -- or for plasticizers between 18 1969 and 1973, were the Aroclors removed from the 19 plasticizer products for which you were 2 0 responsible? 21 A. Monsanto decided to discontinue the 22 manufacture and sale during that period, at some 23 date in that period. . 24 Q. And they -- Monsanto decided to 2 5 discontinue the manufacture and sale of Aroclors 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 >an Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAY 41K-K19-1 0A1 27 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027837 1 used in plasticizers; is that correct? 2 A. Well, my recollection is that we were 3 finding PCBs in the environment. And the first 4 thing we did was to try to find out where the PCBs 5 in the environment were coming from. And then the 6 next wave of effort was to discontinue 7 manufacturing and sales in those areas that we 8 thought were contributing broadly in the 9 environment. And originally we continued to sell 10 and those sales were where the Aroclor was 11 contained. And then that occurred while I was 12 there. I started to comment on what happened after 13 I left, but I am not real sure what happened after 14 I left. But I know that happened while I was 15 there. 16 Q. Did the discontinuation of the 17 manufacture and sale of Aroclors in products where 18 the Aroclor was contained occur while you were 19 business director of plasticizers? 2 0 MR. PREUSS: You are talking about 2 1 plasticizer products? 2 2 MS. GRADY: Yes. 2 3 THE WITNESS: I think in the plasticizer 24 products -- we discontinued the sale of either all Aroclors or essentially all Aroclors because 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 cPfe CAY Ai 1UW* 0-1 0/11 28 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027838 1 generally in the plasticizer products the material 2 generally is not contained, meaning it had 3 reasonably wide distribution in the end market. So 4 my recollection is the plasticizer products were 5 the first ones that we discontinued manufacturing 6 and marketing. 7 MS. GRADY: Q. What do you mean by 8 "reasonably wide distribution in the end market"? 9 A. To give some examples first on those that 10 are contained, if an Aroclor is used as a 11 functional fluid in an airline airplane hydraulic 12 system or in a compressor system where it is 13 contained, it's contained. It's not being spread 14 around the countryside. 15 The opposite extreme would be -- we did 16 some business with the paper companies and it was 17 used in carbonless carbon paper. And it's used in 18 carbonless carbon paper. That paper is widely 19 distributed in offices, in filling stations, anyone 2 0 who uses carbonless carbon paper. 2 1 It was then sent to trash dumps where the 2 2 PCB could have been leached out and gone into the 2 3 ground or the paper was even recycled into 24 corrugated paper board and the PCBs went into 25 rivers. So the extremes would be carbonless carbon t9 Stevenson St, Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 H5-512-1234 comhs5i rncr CAV /HK.CIO.IO/11 29 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9.... Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027839 1 paper would widely disperse the PCBs. And a closed 2 system like an airline airplane hydraulic system or 3 a compressor fluid system was closely controlled 4 and contained. It didn't spread the PCBs in its 5 normal usage in the functional fluid area. 6 Q. Were there any uses for which 7 plasticizers were sold during your tenure as 8 business director of that group that you considered 9 the end use to be contained? 10 A. I recommend making an argument that a 11 plasticizer or a window sealant was reasonably well 12 contained to any Monsanto management. That idea 13 was not selling very well. They didn't consider 14 that being contained. So I don't recall having a 15 good place -- having a good contained use of 16 plasticizers and therefore they were the first ones 17 that we were looking at to eliminate. 18 Q. When you were the plant manager at the 19 Nitro plant in West Virginia, did you have ultimate 2 0 responsibility for the labeling of the products 2 1 that left the plant? 2 2 A. I would say no, not really. The 2 3 manufacturing plant's responsibility was to see 24 that the labels were attached as -- but the label 2 5 was really specified by a combination of marketing -9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 >an Francisco, CA 94105 H 5-512-1234 combs?. liter FAX 415-512-1241 30 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027840 1 people, medical people if it had any possible 2 toxicity problem. So that the plants were really 3 given the appropriate labels to us on whatever the 4 plants shipped and the plants really didn't have 5 the responsibility to make up the terminology for 6 the labels. 7 Q. Was it the ultimate responsibility of the 8 plant manager to make sure that the right label was 9 attached to the right product? 10 A. It was part of the manager's 11 responsibility, yes. 12 Q. You mentioned that one of the products 13 produced at the Nitro plant were agricultural 14 chemical products; is that right? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. Were those shipped in drums? 17 A. The agricultural products that I recall 18 manufacturing were solid materials that were 19 powders. They were shipped in cardboard drums, if 2 0 you will, the size and shape of drums, but they 2 1 were manufactured with paper, cardboard. 2 2 Q. Do you recall any agricultural chemical 2 3 products that were produced at the Nitro plant 24 during your tenure there that were shipped in metal 2 5 drums? 1-9 Stevens 3t., Suite 400 San Franci: CA 94105 t15-51 2-1234 PAY A1 P.P1 0-1 OA1 31 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027841 l 1 A. I can think of at least one. I am sure 2 we had more than one, yes. 3 Q. Did those drums have paper labels on 4 them? 5 A. I don't recall whether they had paper 6 labels or they had painted-on labels. I don't 7 recall. 8 Q. Do you recall whether there was a 9 production line that was designed to affix labels 10 to products leaving the Nitro plant? 11 A. No. I continue -- what I would remember 12 is that each manufacturing unit -- each 13 manufacturing department attached their own labels. 14 And we probably produced 30 to 40 different - 15 different products and each of those manufacturing 16 units would attach their own labels. Other than 17 the location of the customer, which would be done 18 by the shipping department, but the locations as to 19 what the product is, any hazardous handling labels 2 0 would all be done in the manufacturing department 2 1 as the containers were filled. 2 2 Q. Do you recall any equipment that was used 2 3 to affix the labels? 2 4 A. No, I don't. Equipment may be as simple 2 5 as a stencil and a spray can. 9 Stevenson St;, Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 CQ i ^ ine: FAY A15 .aio.ioai 32 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027842 Q. Right. For the -- do you recall any products in Nitro that had warning labels on them? A. Yes . 4 Q. Were you as plant manager provided with 5 the labels from St. Louis or some other location or 6 were they printed there at Nitro? 7 A. I don't believe we printed our own 8 labels. Our labels were provided to us from 9 somewhere and I don't recall where somewhere was. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. But I don't think we printed labels. 12 Q. When you became head of the plasticizer 13 group, did you have ultimate responsibility for the 14 warning labels put on plasticizer products? 15 A. I would say yes. We had all 16 responsibilities for the products that we handled. 17 Q. Do you recall whether -- strike that. 18 Do you recall where labels for the 19 plasticizer products were printed? 20 A. I wouldn't know where they were printed, 2 1 no. No, I don't recall. 22 Q. Did Monsanto have a printing facility 2 3 when you were there? 24 A. Yes, we did. . Q. Where was it? 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 33 42 Digital Drive. Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMONOQ27843 1 A . In St. Louis. Where was it? 2 Q. It was in St. Louis? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Was it in the Queeny plant? Excuse me. 5 A. The only printing facility I recall was 6 at Monsanto's headquarters in e-r-w&eee u r, 7 g--v-e-e-o- e-u-u:. " C-rtV{ Coe. 8 Q. And did that printing facility print 9 labels? 10 A. I don't recall. It may sound a bit 11 ridiculous, but, as a manager, manufacturers' 12 labels just appeared. I don't know where they came 13 f rom. 14 Q. Let me show you an exhibit which we have 15 premarked as Exhibit 539. I will hand to the 16 reporter the one with the stamp on it and provide 17 you and your counsel with a copy. 18 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 19 Exhibit 539 was marked 20 for identification.) 2 1 MS. GRADY: Q. And the questions I am 2 2 going to ask you about this exhibit, Mr. Springgate 2 3 and I realize it's difficult to read -- are on the 2 4 first page. Down in the right-hand corner of 25 Exhibit 539 it says, "Monsanto Industrial Chemicals 9 Stevehson St., Suite 400 an Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 34 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027844 1 Company, June 1st, 1972." 2 Do you see that? 3 A . Yes. 4 Q. Can you tell by looking at this 5 organization chart whether it accurately represents 6 this level of management in the Monsanto Industrial 7 Chemicals Company in 1972? 8 MR. PREUSS: What level? You mean the 9 whole chart? 1 0 MS. GRADY: No, I just mean this page. 11 Let me strike this and just make a simpler 12 question. 1 3 Q. Does this look like a management chart 14 from 1972 to you from the titles and the names on 15 this first page? , 16 A. I think it does. 17 Q. Your position is accurately reflected, 1 8 for example, as business director of plasticizers? 19 A. I think that's correct. 2 0 Q. And you reported to - 2 1 A . E.S. Robson. 2 2 Q. How do you spell that? 2 3 A. R-o-b-s-o-n. 24 Q. How did you -- how did you relate to the 2 5 director of manufacturing in this time period? How 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 CQ FAX 415-512-1241 35 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027845 i 1 did your responsibilities relate to that person's? 2 A. That was Holzapfel, I think, which is the 3 fourth name in the second column. This was again 4 when we were using a reasonably complex 5 manufacturing program. Fred Holzapfel had the 6 plant managers reporting to him. So the names 7 under there like Avon, Delaware River and so forth 8 were plant sites and those plant managers reported 9 to Holzapfel. 10 Within a business unit we had products 11 that were being manufactured in those various 12 locations. So the business units each had a 13 manufacturing manager who would work with those 14 manufacturing locations in regard to quantity and 15 quality of the product being manufactured. 16 Q. So you had a manufacturing manager under 17 you who worked with the Anniston plant, for 18 example, on the - 19 A. Correct. 2 0 Q. -- quantity and quality of the Aroclors? 2 1 A. That's correct. 2 2 Q. And -- well, strike that. 2 3 MR. PREUSS: Well, let me just clarify that. You said on Aroclors. Again we're talking about a time frame June 1, 1972. 9 Stevenson!St., Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 comb5i tncr FAV 41R-.F19-1CM1 36 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027846 -.-Fi 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE WITNESS: Well, we -- I had a manufacturing manager who worked with the plants, whichever plasticizer products were being manufactured at that point in time. MS. GRADY: That's right. I didn't mean to imply anything else. MR. PREUSS: I just want to make sure. MS. GRADY: Q. Who is Mr. Bergen? A. Howard Bergen was a business director. And as it says here -- it says, "Specialty Products," which at one point in time he was responsible for the Aroclors used fluids. -dr...don't--know--------- -p e-r i od . as functional --- Q. Even though I said I wasn't going to do this, could I get you to look at the next page? Are you familiar with someone named P.S. Park, who's shown there on the first block of the second level? A. Yes, I am. Q. Who's P.S. Park? A. Phocian Park, P-h-o-c-i-a-n, I think. MR. PREUSS: It's unique. THE WITNESS: Yeah. MS. GRADY: Q. That is a man? A. Yes. 9...Stevenson St,, Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 1_ CO, UJN~. FAX 415-512-1241 37 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMONOQ27847 Q. Who is Mr. Park? A. Mr. Park was an attorney assigned to a 3 group of businesses. He was one of two. There's 4 apparently another name there that I can't read. 5 Q. Did you have an attorney assigned to the 6 plasticizer business? 7 A. I am sure we did, but at that date I 8 couldn't tell you who the man was. 9 Q. And what tasks did the attorney assigned 10 to the plasticizer business - 11 A. Generally would work with us on customer 12 contracts, which was far and away the busiest 13 effort that we had going with the -- that required 14 some input from an attorney and any other legal 15 questions we may have of him. I can broaden it to 16 say I think every business unit I have ever been in 17 in Monsanto had an attorney assigned to work with 18 that business unit. It's always on a case basis as 19 needed, whatever you need. 2 0 Q. After you -- was the work you did with 2 1 the silicon business starting in 1975, was that 2 2 your last position with Monsanto? 2 3 A. Correct. 24 Q. What was your title? 25 A. When I started it was general manager of 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 comhsjf FAX 415-512-1241 38 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027848 1 materials and for the last five years it 2 was president of Monsanto's electronic materials 3 company. 4 Q. And what are electronic materials? 5 A. Primarily silicon wafers for the 6 semiconductor industry of the electronics business, 7 of the electronics industry, manufactured and sold 8 silicon wafers. 9 Q. Were the -- you indicated that the Texas 10 City plant for which you were a project director 11 was to manufacture Santicizer; is that correct? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. Do you recall whether there were any 14 particular design needs based on -- strike that. 15 Did the Santicizer -- was the Santicizer 16 manufactured with Aroclors? 17 A. No, it was not. 18 Q. So there were Santicizers that contained 19 Aroclors and others that did not; is that correct? 2 0 A. Correct. 2 1 Q. And the Texas City plant did not produce - 2 2 A. Did not. 2 3 Q. So the first time you believe that you 24 heard about Aroclors or PCBs was when you 2 5 transferred back to St. Louis, is that correct, 9 Stevenson St.. Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAY A1Z-K19-19A1 39 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027849 1 after your job in Texas City? 2 A. Yes, I believe I made that comment 3 earlier, but let me broaden it a bit. I hate to 4 say it's the first time I have ever heard of 5 Aroclors or PCBs. As a manufacturing 6 superintendent, we probably used a functional fluid 7 in some of the equipment that we had in the Queeny 8 plant. I had good friends who transferred from 9 plant to plant and one of them was the 10 superintendent of the Aroclor department in 11 Anniston, Alabama. So it's -- it's hard to say 12 when was the first time that I heard of PCBs if 13 the -- it was a Monsanto product and -- 14 Q. Who was your good friend that was 15 superintendent of the Anniston plant that 16 manufactured Aroclors? 17 A . The name was Robert G. Moody. 18 Q. Is Mr . Moody still alive? 19 A . No , he isn't. 2 0 Q. Was -- the equipment in the Queeny plant 2 1 used functional fluids? 22 A. I don't believe I can answer that. I 2 3 don't believe I can tell you which piece of 24 equipment -2 5 Q. You don't recall? 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 Ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 CQmhs5 me: PAY /I IP-PI 9-1 94-1 40 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027850 1 A . NO . 2 Q. Let me show you the next exhibit we have 3 premarked as Exhibit 541. I will provide a copy to 4 you and one to your -- sorry, one to your counsel. 5 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 6 Exhibit 541 was marked 7 for identification.) 8 MR . PREUSS: We are going to skip 540? 9 MS . GRADY: Yes , 10 MS . GRADY: Q. Why don't you go ahead 11 and read the whole document, Mr. Springgate? 12 A. Uh-huh. 1 3 Q. Have you ever seen this document before, 14 Mr. Springgate? 15 A. Not that I recall. 16 Q. Do you have any familiarity with a man 17 named D.V.N. Hardy? 18 A. Not that I recall. 19 Q. What about the R.S. Baxter? 2 0 A. No, not that I recall. 2 1 Q. Have you ever heard of the research done 2 2 by two scientists in Sweden named Jensen and 2 3 Widmark on Aroclors? 24 A. Not that I recall. 2 5 Q. Do you recall any discussion within 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 lan Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 combsfi inc: CAV AIK-KIO-IOAI 41 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027851 i 1 Monsanto about research done in Sweden on the 2 persistence -- that discovered the persistence of 3 Aroclors in the environment? 4 A. Not that I recall. 5 Q. All right. The next exhibit which is 6 premarked as 545 -- Mr. Springgate, I will point 7 out for you for the record that some of these 8 exhibits have numerous stamps on them and that's 9 because they have been used in different 10 litigation. 11 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 12 Exhibit 545 was marked 13 for identification.) 14 MS. GRADY: Q. Could you flip through 15 Exhibit 545 and tell me if this looks familiar to 16 you at all? 17 A. Now, what was the question? 18 Q. Have you seen this document before? 19 A. Not that I recall. 2 0 Q. By March 3d, 1969, were you the business 2 1 director of the plasticizers group? 2 2 A. I am not sure. Sometime in -- the only 2 3 thing I am sure of, we transferred back to 2 4 St. Louis in the summer of 1968. And I was working 25 on the project at Texas City. And sometime during 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 Ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 comhs5 PAY ihc: e.ei 0.1 OA1 42 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9...... Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027852 1 the next year I became the project director of 2 3 MR. PREUSS: Business director you mean? 4 THE WITNESS: I am sorry. Business 5 director of plasticizers. And I am not sure of the 6 specific date. 7 MS. GRADY: Q. Your job at Texas City -- 8 strike that. 9 For your job at Texas City you were 10 actually located in St. Louis; is that correct? 11 A. Yes, correct. 12 Q. When you took on your job as business 13 director for plasticizers, did you receive a 14 briefing by the person who had held that job 15 before, if there was one? 16 A. Not that I recall. 17 Q. Who held the job before you? 18 A. I don't -- I think that job was created 19 as a result of a reorganization. I think we went 2 0 to the business director concept for the first time 2 1 at that time. So I think it was a rearrangement of 22 the whole organization that resulted in business 2 3 direct to us. 24 Q. How did you go about learning about the 25 plasticizer business that you were now head of? 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 comhs5i UlV^. FAY Ai t^.t^l 0.1 0A1 43 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027853 i 1 A. I recall talking to the director of 2 marketing about his product list and his customer 3 list. I remember talking to the research and 4 development director about the projects he was 5 working on. So in summary I would say by talking 6 to the heads of each of those departments. 7 Q. Did you talk to the director of marketing 8 and -- in the first weeks or months when you became 9 business director for plasticizers, did you talk 10 the director of marketing about the issue of the 11 presence of PCBs in Monsanto's plasticizer records? 12 A. I don't recall. 13 Q. And is that the same answer for any talks 14 you had with your head of research and development? 15 A. I don't recall that. 16 Q. Do you recall any discussion with any 17 Monsanto employees in the first couple of weeks or 18 months upon assuming the job of business director 19 for plasticizers when the topic of PCBs came up? 2 0 A. I assume you mean PCBs in the 2 1 environment? 2 2 Q. PCBs in Monsanto's products and in the 2 3 environment. 2 4 A. There's a big difference-. PCBs are 2 5 Monsanto's products or they were. The Aroclors are i9 Stevenson St., Suite.400.. $an Francisco, CA 94105 H 5-512-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 44 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027854 1 PCBs. So I am sure I talked to people about the 2 Aroclors. Sometime early in my assignment as a 3 plasticizer business director I remember reading 4 and hearing about the peregrine falcon on the west 5 coast, but I couldn't tell you what the date was. 6 Q. What do you recall hearing about the 7 peregrine falcon? 8 A. What I remember hearing -- and not from 9 scientific dissertations, but from the newspaper 10 and magazines -- was that PCBs were suspected of 11 being responsible for the thin egg shells as laid 12 by the peregrine falcon and hence the falcon chicks 13 were not hatching. And it was a PCB problem 14 somehow. The PCBs were supposed to have wound up 15 in the falcon and that resulted in the thin egg 1 6 she11s. 17 Q. Who did you hear that from? 18 A. I would say that was from the public 19 press, not scientific input. That would have been 2 0 from newspaper articles or magazine articles. 2 1 Q. And did you take any action in your 2 2 position at Monsanto upon hearing about the 2 3 potential link between PCBs and egg shell thinning? 2 4 A. I can't recall a specific activity. I am 2 5 sure we took action, but I can't recall for you 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 15-51 2-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 45 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027855 1 specific things that we did. 2 Q. Do you recall going to anyone at Monsanto 3 and saying, "Hey, I have been -- have you heard 4 this about peregrine falcons, what are we doing 5 about this," or words to that effect? 6 A. There was a discussion in our business 7 group and among -- with other people about the 8 peregrine falcon and as to whether PCBs were likely 9 to be responsible for that or not. So, yes, I 10 remember that kind of discussion. 11 Q. Did you have an opinion on whether PCBs 12 were likely to be responsible? 13 A. I don't recall. 14 Q. Would you characterize this as more just 15 colleagues talking about stories in the popular 16 press or did this relate in some way to your job 17 18 A. It would have been a portion of my job 19 responsibility. If the PCBs were truly being 2 0 broadcast into the environment and it was to be 2 1 affecting wild life, that would affect my job 2 2 responsibilities. We would be very much concerned. 2 3 We would need to know how that was happening and do 2 4 something about it. 2 5 Q. Do you recall taking any steps to find 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 lan Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 46 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMONOQ27856 i 1 out how PCBs might be broadcast into the 2 environment so they were ending or allegedly ending 3 up in peregrine falcons? 4 A. I recall having discussed about how PCBs 5 could be spread around from the various uses to 6 which we were selling, which ones would likely be 7 spreading PCBs around and which ones were not. 8 Yes, we had that kind of conversation and we had a 9 lot of conversation about what action we should be 10 taking. And I remember taking a lot of action. 11 Q. I am just trying to get a beginning date -- 12 A. Right. 13 Q. -- for this activity. So that's the only 14 reason I am kind of rooting around here. 15 What's the first discussion you remember 16 with Monsanto employees about the issue of PCBs in 17 the environment. And if not by date, but who you 18 had the discussion with. 19 A. I can't recall that either way. 2 0 Q. Could I direct your attention to the 2 1 second page of Exhibit 545, the third full 2 2 paragraph that starts, "the conclusions of these 2 3 scientists are puzzling," and ask you to read that 24 paragraph? . 2 5 A. Uh-huh. 9 Stevenson St, Suite 400 ;an Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 combs?} me: FAX 415-512-1241 47 42 Digital Drive, Suite .9..... Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027857 Q. In your conversations with people at Monsanto, was it your impression that people - Monsanto people were confused as to how PCBs might 4 be showing up in the environment? 5 MR. PREUSS: Object to the form of the 6 question as calling for speculation. 7 THE WITNESS: Try that again, please. 8 MS. GRADY: Q. Sure. In your 9 conversations with people at Monsanto, was it your 10 impression that people at Monsanto were confused 11 about how PCBs might be showing up in the 12 environment? 13 MR. PREUSS: Again, I object to the form 14 of the question as calling for speculation as to 15 what's in the mind of other people and 16 argumentative in the use of the term "confused." 17 THE WITNESS: Shall I - 18 MR. PREUSS: You can answer. 19 THE WITNESS: We are a science based 2 0 company and we did not understand how PCBs could 2 1 wind up broadly in the environment with what we 2 2 knew about the uses of PCB and the chemical and 2 3 physical aspects of the product. We operated on the scientific basis. We needed to understand how you would possibly get from A to B. And this 9 Stevens St.. Suite 400 San Franci: CA 94105 15-512-1234 ita v/ aac cm -\n a 4 48 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMONOQ27858 i 1 paragraph says they're stable compounds and they 2 don't break apart and they're essentially insoluble 3 in water. And when the peregrine falcons 4 supposedly contain PCB after eating fish and 5 seafood, there was no way we could make the 6 connection between PCBs used in an airplane 7 hydraulic system and a falcon showing up with trace 8 PCBs. And that's all that sentence says. We don't 9 have the science to cover that distance in between. 10 MS. GRADY: Q. Could you -- could I 11 direct your attention to the one, two, three, 12 four -- fifth paragraph which starts, "PCBs are 13 also used in several plastic type applications"? 14 A. Uh-huh. 15 Q. "Here the chemical is incorporated into 16 the polymer as an integral part of the solid 17 material. This applies whether the polymer is used 18 as an adhesive, an elastomer or a surface coating." 19 A. Correct. 2 0 Q. Is there a description of some of the 2 1 products produced by the plasticizer people? 2 2 A. Yes. The products we produced 2 3 plasticizers are combined with plastic materials to 2 4 give different characteristics to the finished 2 5 plastic material. And when it's combined in a 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 115-512-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 49 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027859 1 plastic material, there's no way to separate the 2 two. That's all that says. 3 Q. You told me before, I believe, that the 4 plasticizer division produced and sold Santicizers 5 and that was the product from that group that 6 contained Aroclors; is that correct? 7 A. Santicizer is a Monsanto trade name for 8 plasticizer products. We had how many different 9 products? Let's say 30 different plasticizer 10 products. Some of those were Aroclor based 11 products. Most of them were not. My recollection 12 is that the Aroclor based products was a small 13 fraction, maybe 20 percent of our total plasticizer 14 products. The big volume plasticizer products are /lUCrjO C.j'c 15 not PCBs at all. They're made out of linear c-l-ors, 16 different chemistry. 17 Q. Initially did NCR carbonless - 18 A. Carbon paper. 19 Q. -- carbon paper product come out of the 20 plasticizer group? 2 1 A. I believe it did. 2 2 Q. And was that one of your products when 2 3 you were business director for plasticizers? 24 A. I believe it was. 2 5 Q. And Aroclors were used in that product up 9 Stevenson St.. Suite 400 Jan Francisco, CA 94105 H 5-512-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 50 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027860 i 1 to some point, correct? 2 A. I believe that's true. 3 Q. When you had your first discussions with 4 Monsanto people about how PCBs might be ending up 5 in the environment, was there discussion of 6 carbonless carbon paper as a possible source? 7 A. Originally my recollection is that that 8 was not one of the early suspects. In the first 9 few months of this subject, we discussed all 10 possible uses. And we really didn't understand it. 11 And then in the case of carbonless carbon paper, we 12 had convinced ourselves that the PCB would not 13 leach out of the paper into the water. That was 14 our initial belief. 15 And then over the next few months I 16 remember -- over the next period of time -- I don't 17 remember whether it was a few months or how long it 18 really was -- we then became convinced that 19 probably the broadest method of spreading -- the 2 0 most effective method of spreading PCBs was the 2 1 carbonless carbon paper. It went from the bottom 22 of our suspect list to the top of our suspect list 2 3 over a period of time as we developed more 2 4 information and better methods of identifying the 25 PCBs. And they were one -- since they were the 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAY AIR-filO-IOAl 51 42 Digital Drive,. Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027861 highest on the suspect list of spreading PCBs, that was one of the first cases where we went back to 3 the customer and said, "We have to find alternate 4 products." 5 Q. You said that at first when you were 6 discussing this situation that you all had -- that 7 you had convinced yourself, .you being the Monsanto 8 people, that the Aroclors in the carbonless carbon 9 paper could not leach into water. 10 Is that an accurate statement? 11 A. One of the facts we had was stated here, 12 that PCBs had a very low solubility in water. And 13 you would initially think that even if the paper 14 got into the water, PCBs -- either solubility is so 15 low that they wouldn't leach out at any detectible 16 level, that was an original thought. 17 And then a later thought was it 18 apparently was wrong because as we studied the 19 subject and we got more and more scientific data on 20 the subject, our scientists and our engineers would 2 1 come back and our scientists would tell you what 2 2 solubility was in water and our engineers would 2 3 come back and say yes. 24 And upon further research of the paper 25 industry, they would tell you that not only was 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 uicr FAX 415-512-1241 52 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9.... Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027862 1 carbonless carbon paper reasonably widely 2 distributed as carbon paper, then a lot of it went 3 back, was recycled and it went through another 4 washing process into cardboard. And now you also 5 got the cardboard distributed. So it was -- our 6 scientists and engineers over a period of time came 7 back and concluded that there's a lot more 8 distribution from the carbonless carbon paper than 9 we originally visualized. 10 Q. Did you have scientists reporting to you 11 that were working on trying to figure out how PCBs 12 from carbonless carbon paper might be getting into 13 the environment? 14 A. Yes, I did. I had some. And the 15 functional fluid group had some and we had some 16 under a combined effort. 17 Q. Were the scientists working -- can you 18 explain to me how -- how the -- the scientists' 19 efforts were coordinated in terms of their 2 0 research? 2 1 A. After -- after some period of time - 2 2 some period of months, Monsanto decided to put a 2 3 larger and more coordinated effort on determining 24 how PCBs were distributed and what could be done 25 about it and so forth and so on. They put together 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 comhsjS inn* FAX 415-512M241 53 42 Digital.Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027863 a task force, if you will, and then most of that scientific effort was then directed by that task force. And each of our business units had some 4 member on that task force for different purposes. 5 So we eventually ended up with a combined 6 task force approaching all these subjects at one 7 time. So you could be working on the right subject 8 at the right time from the research point of view 9 or a PR point of view or any other point of view. 10 So we had a combined research effort. 11 Q. You mentioned that a hydraulic system - 12 strike that. 13 Aroclors were used in hydraulic fluids 14 for airplanes; is that correct? 15 A. Yes, I believe that's true. 16 Q. And you mentioned that you thought that 17 hydraulic systems on airplanes were a closed 18 system; is that correct? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. Now, why was that a closed system? Can 2 1 you explain to me why the hydraulic system on an 22 airplane is a closed system? 2 3 A. Well, this is closed systems in terms 24 of -- of polluting the environment, if you will, 25 with PCBs. When you put Aroclors in the hydraulic 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 H 5-512-1234 conibsS inc t~ A W 54 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027864 ( 1 system on an airplane, you don't -- if you put in 2 50 pounds, you come back two weeks later, you are 3 still supposed to have 50 pounds or 49.99. You are 4 supposed to have the same volume in a closed 5 container. It's not like it squirts loose once and 6 it spreads all over the runway. It's a closed 7 system. It has to be a closed system. You can't 8 afford to keep buying Aroclors. So that is a 9 closed system in contrast to this carbonless carbon 10 paper, little bubbles of PCB on the back and they 11 get spread all over the place. That is what I mean 12 by a closed system versus an open system. 13 Q. I don't know anything about a hydraulic 14 airplane system. Let me ask one additional 15 question. Are you saying an airplane hydraulic 16 system is not like the oil you put into a car where 17 periodically you have to add more oil; rather you 18 put one dose of hydraulic fluid in an airplane 19 engine and that keeps it running for the life of 2 0 the airplane? 2 1 A. Uh-huh. An airplane hydraulic system is 22 like the brake fluid in your car. You fill a brake 2 3 system with brake fluid, and under normal 24 circumstances you should have no leakage, and the 2 5 brake fluid stays there for years. So a hydraulic 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 >an Francisco, CA 94105 H5-51 2-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 55 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027865 `_ri 1 system on an airplane is like that. If you have no 2 failures, if you have no leaks, it ought to stay 3 like that for a long period of time. 4 Q. What if you have leaks? 5 A. If you have leaks, you are going to lose 6 some. Again, even if you have leaks, you have 7 leaks under a more controlled system, meaning the 8 mechanics who work on that airplane work on it at 9 the same place all the time. It's not -- you know, 10 you are not spraying it over the corn fields of 11 Iowa. If you have got a leak, the odds are it's 12 going to leak right there where you are working on 13 it or, if you spill some of it, where you are 14 repairing the hydraulic system. And it's more a 15 closely controlled system. 16 Q. Do you know anything about gas 17 compressors from your work with Monsanto? 18 A. In generalities I do. I have done enough 19 engineering and maintenance work in the past that I 20 have an idea of how they operate, yes. 2 1 Q. Were there any gas compressors at the 22 Nitro plant? 2 3 A. I don't recall frank1y. 24 Q. What about the Queeny plant when you were 25 there? t9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 3an Francisco, CA 94105 H 5-512-1234 C FAX 41 R-51 2-1 241 56 4 2 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027866 1 A. I am sure we -- I remember air 2 compressors. I don't remember natural gas 3 compressors. 4 Q. And -- well, let's talk about air 5 compressors then. Is an air compressor, in your 6 opinion based on your work at Monsanto, a closed 7 system as you have defined that term? 8 A. If you used the fluid -- you are talking 9 the use of a fluid? 10 Q. Uh-huh. 11 A. I would think if you are talking about 12 the use of a fluid in an air compressor, it should 13 be a closed system, yes. You don't add gallons per 14 day to keep things running. You fill up the system 15 and it's a contained system. It's a closed system. 16 And even if you had a leak, you know where to look 17 for it. 18 Q. What lubricant's used in compressors? Do 19 you know anything about that based on your work at 2 0 Monsanto? 2 1 A. Well, I know that you generally -- you 2 2 need lubricants if you have bearings. If you have 2 3 pistons, you need lubricants. 2 4 Q. Are you familiar at all with the product 25 Turbinol produced by Monsanto? 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 an Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 57 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027867 1 A. Not in great detail. I know What it is. 2 Q. What is it? 3 A. It's ..... I would say that's a fluid. 4 Let's see. Let me think for a second. You have 5 Pydraul. One of those is for hydraulic systems. 6 And I think that's -- I don't remember the products 7 other than those used for hydraulic systems. And I 8 don't remember the nomenclature. 9 Q. Do you recall any discussions of any 10 products used for lubricants in gas compressors 11 during your work at Monsanto? 12 A. Not that I recall. 13 Q. Did that fall into the function of fluids 14 business? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. This is a good time for a break which I 17 am ready for if you are willing 18 A. Okay. 19 (Whereupon, a recess was taken.) 2 0 MS. GRADY: Q. I have been derelict in 2 1 identifying exhibits, I realized. So let me 22 describe for the record the last exhibit we were 23 working with, which was Exhibit 545, which is a 24 three-page document with Bates numbers T 091767 2 5 through 69, which purports to be a memo -- excuse 9 Stevenson St.. Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 CQ inc: CAY /Ilfi.WO-IO/H 58 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027868 1 me a letter dated March 3d, 1969 to Westinghouse 2 from Elmer P. Wheeler of Monsanto. 3 The next document I would like to show 4 you I have premarked as Exhibit 547, which I will 5 describe for the record as a three-page document 6 dated March 6th, 1969, which purports to be a 7 memorandum to a group of people, actually to 8 Mr. Wheeler from W.R. Richard. The subject of the 9 memorandum is Aroclor Wildlife Accusations and 10 Mr. Springgate is shown as a CC. 11 And I would like you to take a look at 12 this, Mr. Springgate, and tell me if you have seen 13 this document before. 14 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 15 Exhibit 547 was. marked 16 for identification.) 17 THE WITNESS: I would say not that I - 18 not that I recall. 19 MS. GRADY: Q. Mr. Springgate, as I 2 0 reviewed the documents that had your name on them, 2 1 I noticed that -- this is not a question. This is 2 2 a preamble to a question. I noticed that at a 2 3 certain point you started showing up in a long CC 2 4 list with Mr. Bergen and others. ' 25 This is the question. Do you recall that 9 Stevenson !3t,, Suite 400 5an Francisco, CA 94105 H5-512-1234 PAY 59 42 Digital Drive. Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027869 i some sort of program was put into place in the spring of 1969 to organize the distribution of 3 information within Monsanto concerning PCBs? 4 A. I don't recall. No, I don't recall. 5 Q. Do you know what information you got 6 about PCBs and what information you didn't get? In 7 other words, was it your understanding that there 8 was some system of circulation that had you getting 9 certain kinds of information about PCBs? 10 A. Well, yes. When we started the task 11 force to develop more information about PCBs and do 12 some more scientific work about PCBs, then I was 13 given information that affected my plasticizer 14 business unit. And I was able to monitor what was 15 being done by the task force through receiving 16 copies of whatever it was published from the task 17 force. 18 Q. How was the task force organized? 19 A. My recollection is that they brought in a 2 0 man by the name of Bill Papageorge, who I think had 2 1 just been the plant manager at the Anniston plant. 2 2 And he was put in charge of a task force. And then 2 3 my recollection is that they put in other appropriate people in that task force, either scientific persons or medical people, to contribute 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 H 5-512-1234 combs5i me: FAX 415-51P-1241 60 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027870 I 1 to the solution of the problem of the distribution 2 of PCBs in the environment. 3 Q. Were there meetings of the heads of 4 manufacturing for the groups that produced products 5 containing Aroclors on the PCB issue prior to 6 Mr. Papageorge being brought in to manage the 7 process? 8 A. I simply don't recall. 9 Q. Do you recall discussions about a 10 scientific paper printed in Nature magazine by a 11 fellow by the name of Dr. Risebrough? 12 A. I don't recall that. 13 Q. Let me direct your attention to the 14 second page of Exhibit 547 down to the paragraph 15 that starts, "But we can't easily control hydraulic 16 fluid losses in small plants," and ask you to read 17 that paragraph. 18 A. Uh-huh. I have read it. 19 Q. Based on your work at Monsanto in the 2 0 plasticizer group and the information you gained 2 1 about the use of Monsanto's PCBs, do you know what 22 is meant by "We can't easily control hydraulic 2 3 fluid losses in small plants"? 24 A. I don't know what the writer meant. Q. Does that convey any information to you, 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 me: FAX 415-512-1241 61 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9. Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027871 i based on your experience at Monsanto, about why it would be difficult to control fluid losses of 3 hydraulic fluids at small plants? 4 A. No. I don't understand what the writer 5 meant and, frankly, the statement doesn't make a 6 lot of sense to me. It would appear to me you 7 could control hydraulic fluids. 8 Q. You don't recall making that comment? 9 A. No. 10 Q. In the next paragraph, the one that 11 starts "Risebrough has taken known Aroclor samples 12 and claims to have evidence of enzyme and hormone 13 change," can you read that paragraph, please? 14 A. Uh-huh. 15 Q. The sentence that reads "Since 16 Risebrough's paper in 'Nature' in December of 1969 17 has just been published, it is timely, perhaps 18 imperative, that this paper and its implications be 19 discussed with certain customers," do you recall 2 0 discussing Dr. Risebrough's work concerning PCBs 2 1 and the environment with any of your customers? 2 2 A. Well, we discussed the PCBs in the 23 environment with our customers. Specifically in 24 reference to Risebrough's papers, no, I don't 2 5 recall. 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 H 5-512-1234 CQ 11JV_. FAX 415-512-1241 62 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027872 1 Q. Was there any discussion within Monsanto 2 about what customers would be contacted concerning 3 the evolving information about PCBs and which would 4 not? 5 A. I do recall that -- I do recall we had a 6 program to discuss PCBs with all our customers. I >ry 7 do also recall that we discussed -- we had a 'partry* 8 list on what we thought were the potentially widest 9 spread customers for PCBs and those which we 10 thought were least likely to spread PCBs. So we rtZiCtLiT'/. ' 11 had a p-a-rtyr'1 ist that we worked through from top to 12 bottom. ' 13 Q. Do you recall when NCR was first included 14 with the plasticizers group regarding its Aroclors? 15 A. I don't recall. 16 Q. So in this particular sentence in Exhibit 17 547 where it states, "this paper and its 18 implications I am sorry. I need to read more, 19 but "It is timely, perhaps imperative, that this 2 0 paper and its implications be discussed with 2 1 certain customers." 22 The use of the term "certain" doesn't 2 3 comport with your recollection of some sort of 24 division between what customers would be approached 25 with information about PCBs in the spring of 1969? 9 Stevenson St, Suite 400 Ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 e I /w uiv. FAX 415-512-1241 63 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027873 i A. I don't recall what this writer had in mind, that specific reference. 3 Q. And you understand that I am not asking 4 you what this writer had in mind. I am just trying 5 to refresh your recollection of any discussions or 6 materials that you recall occurring in the spring 7 of 1969 concerning this subject. 8 MR. PREUSS: He's already answered you 9 about discussion of PCBs with all customers in the 10 priority list. You want him to expand on that? 11 MS. GRADY: No. 12 Q. I just want to know if the use of the 13 term "certain customers" refreshes any other 14 recollections you might have about how customers 15 were identified? . 16 A. It doesn't. 17 Q. Thanks. 18 Okay. The next exhibit is marked as 19 Exhibit 548. 2 0 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 2 1 Exhibit 548 was marked 2 2 for identification.) 2 3 MS. GRADY: Q. And for the record, 2 4 Exhibit 548 is a two-page document'bearing Bates 2 5 numbers TRAN 086181 through 086182. It purports to 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 inc. FAX 415-512-1241 64 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027874 1 be a memorandum dated May 13th, 1969 from W.R. 2 Richard to file, subject Aroclor Analysis in 3 Pesticide Residues, visit to Professor G. Widmark, 4 W-i-d-m-a-r-k, University of Stockholm, May 5th, 5 1969, with a long -- that was '69 -- with a long CC 6 list which includes Mr. Springgate. 7 The same question as with all these 8 documents, Mr. Springgate; by looking at this 9 document, can you tell me whether you have seen it 10 before? 11 A. I don't recall. I don't recall seeing 12 it. 13 Q. Were you shown any documents in 14 preparation for your deposition here today? 15 A. Was I shown any? I guess -- can I change 16 that to did I read documents? The answer is no. 17 Q. Were you shown any? I don't understand 18 why you are making the distinction. Is there 19 some -- were you shown documents? Were documents 2 0 presented to you in preparation for your 2 1 deposition? 2 2 A. I think yes. 2 3 Q. Was this one of the documents? 2 4 A. I don't know. 25 Q. How many documents were presented to you 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 -15-512-1234 CO FAX 415-512-1241 65 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9. Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027875 t in preparation for your deposition? A . A small pile. 3 Q. Can you -- one-inch pile, a two-inch 4 pile? 5 A. A couple-inch pile. 6 MR. PREUSS: Not as thick as your pile. 7 MS. GRADY: I hope not for your sake. 8 Q. And were these documents given to you to 9 read at home? 10 A. No, they were not. 11 Q. Did you meet with Mr. Preuss to prepare 12 for your deposition here today? 13 A. Yes, I did. 14 Q. And when did you meet with him? 15 . A. Yesterday. 16 Q. How long was the meeting? 17 A. Two-and-a-half hours. 18 Q. Did you read any documents during your 19 meeting? 2 0 A. I would say no. 2 1 Q. Did you review any documents? 22 A. I don't know how to answer "review" 2 3 versus"read." . 24 Q. Did you skim any documents? A. Let me restate. I looked at exhibits and 9 Stevenson StTrSuite 40G ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 combs5t "V U1V* FAX 415-512-1241 66 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027876 noticed that I was on the CC list. That's what I did do. Q. Did any of the documents that you looked 4 at refresh your recollection, refresh your memory 5 of events that had occurred during your employment 6 with Monsanto? 7 A. The only thing that refreshed -- didn't 8 refresh -- I saw timing and my name on a list which 9 told me that apparently the business director at 10 that point in time -- it's really the only thing it 11 did for me. 12 Q. So your memory was refreshed as to the 13 time period of your various jobs? 14 A. The business director of plasticizers. 15 Q. Was your memory refreshed in any other 16 way? 17 A. No . 18 Q. Do you recognize the form of Exhibit 548? 19 A. The form in what regard to the question? 20 Q. As being a memorandum with you on the CC 2 1 list from Mr. Richard, do you recall receiving 22 documents that looked like this from Mr. Richard? 2 3 A. I would say yes. 2 4 Q. And did you rec.eive those in the ordinary course of your job duties as business director for 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 >an Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 i CO, A* incr FAX 415-512-1241 67 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027877  A , Yes , I did. 3 Q. And did you receive a number of documents 4 from Mr. Richard updating you on information about 5 PCBs? 6 A. I am sure I did. 7 Q. Do you recall any discussion or does this 8 memorandum refresh your recollection about any 9 discussion concerning research that had been done 10 in Sweden concerning the persistence of Aroclors in 11 the environment? 12 A. No, I didn' t. ' 13 Q. I may have asked you this. If so, I 14 apologize. Aroclor 12 was the Aroclor used in 15 carbonless carbon paper, correct? 16 A. I don't know. I don't recall. 17 Q. We may have a document that may refresh 18 your memory. All right. The next exhibit is 550, 19 which I will describe for the record as a six-page 2 0 document, the first page of which purports to be a 2 1 memorandum dated June 4th, 1969 from Mr. Wheeler to 2 2 Howard Bergen and Charles Smith and James 2 3 Springgate with the Bates number TRAN 058981. The 2 4 remaining pages of this exhibit are consecutive and 2 5 start with the number TRAN 057762 and go through 3t., Suite 400 CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 68 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027878 1 057766 and purport to be handwritten notes of a 2 Friday meeting, A building. Mr. Springgate's name 3 appears on the first page of what purport to be 4 meeting notes. 5 Do you remember anything that took place 6 in 1969, particularly in 1969? I am trying to 7 figure out if there's some key event that we could 8 use as a benchmark in trying to establish some sort 9 of chronology. 10 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 11 Exhibit 550 was marked 12 for identification.) 13 MR. PREUSS: Oh, your question is a 14 little broad. Anything that happened in 1969? 15 MS. GRADY: Uh-huh. . 16 THE WITNESS: The problem is it works the 17 other way around. One event that I remember was 18 Monsanto discontinuing sales of Aroclors which 19 affected our entire plasticizer business. That was 2 0 a very important event, but I don't know the date. 2 1 MS. GRADY: Q. Do you recall how long 2 2 you had been discussing with other Monsanto people 2 3 the persistence of PCBs in the environment prior to 24 the discontinuation of plasticizer' that contained 2 5 Aroclors? 9 Stevenson St, Suite 400. San Francisco, CA 94105 H 5-512-1234 CQ PAY i _ iW 'Cl ^ ina 9-1941 69 4 2 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027879 1 A. No, I don't recall. 2 Q. What's Building A or A Building, I guess 3 it is? 4 A. Monsanto's buildings at Crevecoeur, they 5 had very sophisticated numbering systems. They 6 were A, B, C and D. 7 Q. Was there discussion at Monsanto that the 8 public information about PCBs was similar to the 9 hue and cry over DDT? 10 MR. PREUSS: Well, I am going to object 11 to the form of the question as argumentative. 12 MS. GRADY: Okay. I will rephrase. 13 Q. Do you recall in your discussions with 14 Monsanto employees any linkage of public awareness 15 of deleterious environmental persistence of DDT and 16 the issue of the persistence of PCBs in the 17 environment? 18 MR. PREUSS: Well, again object to the 19 form of the question as argumentative, at least to 2 0 the term of deleterious, no foundation. 2 1 THE WITNESS: I really don't recall. 2 2 MS. GRADY: Q. Do you recall any 23 discussions of DDT while you were at Monsanto? 24 A. Yes, but I don't remember the time frame. 25 I remember Rachel Carson or whatever her name was, 19 Stevenson St.. Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 H 5-512-1234 G FAX 415-512-1241 70 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027880 Silent Spring, and that was probably ten years before this or something, but it's very vague. 3 Q. Was it ever your concern that people 4 would associate the PCBs that were in the 5 plasticizer products with the bad publicity that 6 DDT had gotten? 7 A. I don't remember that concern. 8 Q. Could I direct your attention to the page 9 that has Bates number TRAN 057765? 10 A. Uh-huh. 11 Q. Do you know a man named Dr. Scott Tucker? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And did he work with someone named Bob? 14 A. Someone who -- 15 . Q. Named Bob, to your recollection. 16 A. I couldn't help -- can't contribute to 17 that. 18 Q. Is Mr. Wheeler known as Bob? 19 A. No. His name is Elmer. 2 0 Q. Elme r. 2 1 Did you come to believe that the work 2 2 done by Dr. Risebrough was essentially valid? 23 A. I don't recall. . Q. You don't recall if you came to any conclusion about Dr. Risebrough's work? Do you 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 71 42. Digital Drive,.Suite .9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMONOQ27881 i 1 recall coming to any conclusion at any time in your 2 work at Monsanto that PCBs did persist in the 3 environment? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. When was that? 6 A. About the time that Monsanto discontinued 7 the sales. 8 Q. And when you say "about the time," what 9 kind of time frame do you have in mind? 10 A. Within months, that point of time. 11 Q. Within months of the discontinuation of 12 the sales of Aroclors in the plasticizer products 13 was the best you can target when you concluded for 14 yourself -- 15 A. Right. 16 Q. -- that PCBs were persisting in the 17 environment? 18 Did you know that the Krummrich plant was 19 dumping Turbinol? 20 MR. PREUSS: Objection, assuming facts 21 not in evidence, argumentative. 22 MS. GRADY: Q. You can answer. 2 3 MR. PREUSS: I will direct your attention 24 to - 25 THE WITNESS: That's a beating your wife 3t., Suite 400 CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 72 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMONOQ27882 l question, is it not? MS. GRADY: Q. Well, I get to ask those 3 kind of questions. I don't think it is, but even 4 if it is, I get to ask the questions. 5 I will direct you to TRAN 057766 under 6 the name "Paul Hodges, Plants," item No. 2, "Stop 7 any gross losses," and then under that it says, 8 "Krummrich was dumping Turbinol." 9 Does that refresh your recollection as to 10 any knowledge you ever had that the Krummrich plant 11 was dumping Turbinol? 12 A. I had no knowledge at all about that. 13 Q. Do you recognize the handwriting of these 14 notes? 15 A. No, I don't. 16 Q. At any time prior to when Monsanto 17 discontinued the sale of Aroclors and plasticizer 18 products, did you come to any conclusion about how 19 PCBs were getting into the environment? 2 0 A. I don't recall. It was too long ago. I 2 1 don't know what I thought -- my thought process was 22 in 1969. 2 3 Q. Did you think that -- did you reach any 2 4 conclusion in your own mind as to whether 2 5 carbonless carbon paper was responsible in any way -9 Stevenson St.. Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 H 5-51 2-1234 coMmbs$b FAX 415-512-1241 73 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027883 1 for putting PCBs into the environment? 2 A. I do recall that we thought that was a 3 primary contributor to PCBs in the environment and 4 that we should discontinue the use and sales for 5 that purpose. I do recall that. 6 Q. The next exhibit we will mark as Exhibit 7 551, which I will describe for the record as a 8 one-page document with Bates number TRAN 0251233 9 which purports to be a memo dated June 10th, 1969, 10 from J.E. Springgate to Mr. W.E. Schalk, 11 S-c-h-a-l-k, the subject Aroclors. 12 Could you please read this entire memo, 13 Mr. Springgate? 14 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 15 Exhibit 551 was marked 16 for identification.) 17 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh. 18 MS. GRADY: Q. Did you draft this memo, 19 Mr. Springgate? 20 A. I don't recall, but I probably did. 21 Q. Is that your signature? 22 A. Yes, I believe it is. 2 3 Q. Is this -- is this a draft that's kept in 24 your files? Can you explain to me the form of 25 this? I have seen some of them with a printed form 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 H 5-512-1234 incr PAV A1Z-R19-19A1 74 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMONOQ27884 1 and others that just have names where the "to" and 2 "from" go. 3 A. This looks like a -- just a letter, which 4 is just an internal memo requesting Walter Schalk 5 to do something and requesting Farrar to do 6 something,, 7 Q. So this is the form that you used in your 8 work at Monsanto? 9 A. Correct. 1 0 Q. And who's Mr. Schalk? 11 A. He was the director of marketing of the 12 plasticizer group. 13 Q. And do you recall -- do you recall 14 anything about the request made in Exhibit 551 15 concerning paints for the interior of water towers? 16 A. I don't -- I don't recall that particular 17 I don't recall the memo. I don't recall the 18 application. 19 Q. Down at the bottom there's a note to 2 0 Martin. Do you know who that is? 2 1 A. Probably it's -- M.W. Farrar is Martin 2 2 Farrar. 2 3 Q. Oh. Who was Martin Farrar? 24 A. He was the director of research of our 2 5 business unit of our plasticizer business group. 9 Stevenson St., Suite.400 >an Francisco, CA 94105 15-51 2-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 75 42 Digital Drive. Suite.9. Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMONOQ27885 Q. What methods were used to control the use of plasticizer products? 3 A. I am sorry. I don't understand the 4 question. What -- what way? 5 Q. Let me rephrase it. It's indicated in 6 Exhibit 551 that one -- that paints with Arodors 7 in them might be in use in water towers where the 8 water is primarily for human consumption. Were 9 there methods in place for recommending uses of 10 Aroclor based products or controlling the uses to 11 which Monsanto products were put? 12 A. Well, the function of the marketing 13 department was to create as many markets as 14 possible for product. And that was their purpose 15 in life. So unless you -- you were working with a 16 product that had some known health hazard or if you 17 were working with an application that required some 18 governmental approval, the normal course of events 19 would be to encourage the use of the product 2 0 wherever it had economic benefit. It was the 2 1 normal course of events. And you didn't usually 2 2 worry about control of the product unless there was 2 3 some health reason or legal reason that you had to 2 4 control it such as legal reason being an FDA approval or a Department of Agriculture approval or 9 Stevenson St.,.Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAX 41R-51P-1P41 76 42 Digital Drive, Suite. 9. Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027886 4 1 something of that tape. So you didn't normally 2 worry about control of how many people wanted to 3 use your product if you didn't have any known 4 hazard. 5 Q. If you had a known hazard, how did you 6 control the use? 7 A. Well, let me think. Some products - 8 chlorinated hydrocarbons as a class are known to 9 develop chloracne, skin acne. So if you were 10 selling a product that's a chlorinated hydrocarbon, 11 you would be concerned about the end use and warn 12 the potential customer that's a problem of that 13 product. 14 Now, what does that say? It says, 15 "Mr. Customer, if you were going to put this in a 1 6 shampoo, it wouldn't make a lot of sense. Even if 17 you were going to use it on any application where 18 it would be handled by the bare hand, it's got a 19 health problem associated with it." 2 0 So you would be very concerned about 2 1 people that used that particular product in certain 2 2 application. Normally in plasticizers these 2 3 products are mixed in machinery. And you don't 24 usually worry about control. 25 Q. If you knew of a specific health hazard, 9 Stevenson St, Suite.400. an Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 I CQ /u ine: FAX 415-512-1241 77 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027887 ,,f\ for example, the situation that you raise, which is 2 chloracne in relation to chlorinated hydrocarbons, 3 did you warn the customers of the specific hazard? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. So the warning would consist of -- 6 A. Label, some information on the product 7 sheet that went with the product, the data sheet. 8 Q. Were the plasticizer products that 9 contain PCBs identified as containing PCBs? 10 A. To -- I haven't seen a data sheet on 11 plasticizers in 20-odd years. My recollection is 12 every plasticizer product we sold also listed the 13 chemical name. So my recollection is yes, Aroclors 14 were called chlorinated biphenyls. 15 Q. So your recollection is that products 16 that contained Aroclors also had a label that 17 stated chlorinated biphenyls? 18 MR. PREUSS: I think that 19 mischaracterizes his testimony. He didn't say it 2 0 was a label necessarily. 2 1 MS. GRADY: Q. Oh, I am sorry. I didn't 2 2 mean to mischaracterize your testimony. 2 3 A. I would say in the plasticizer group our 24 marketing brochures, our sales information, listed 25 Santicizer number so and so and the specific 9 Stevenson St.. Suite 400 Jan Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 78 42 Digital Drive. Suite.9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027888 i 1 chemical compound that was involved. And that was 2 in all of our marketing literature. And I do 3 not -- I do not recall whether that was on the 4 labels or not. 5 Q. Okay. The next document is -- let's see - 6 552, which consists of the Bates number TRAN 02 - 7 purports to be handwritten notes with a date up in 8 the right-hand corner of the first page of 8/25/69 9 and what looks like a title saying "Aroclors 10 Toxicity Meeting" with a list of names, one of 11 which is Springgate. 12 And I would ask you to look at these 13 notes, Mr. Springgate, and tell me if you recognize 14 whose handwriting this is. 15 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 16 Exhibit 552 was marked 17 for identification.) 18 THE WITNESS: No, I don't know whose 19 handwriting it is. 2 0 MS. GRADY: Q. Do you recall attending 2 1 meetings to discuss the toxicity of Aroclors prior 2 2 to Mr. Papageorge being brought on on the PCB 2 3 issue? 2 4 A. I don't recall a specific meeting. I 2 5 don't recall whether we did or did not really. 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 >an Francisco, CA 94105 H 5-51 2-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 79 42 Digital Drive. Suite 9 Novato. CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027889 vf* Q. What's the first time you remember hearing about PCBs being found in fish? 3 A. Sometime close to the point in time that 4 the product was discontinued within months. 5 Q. Were all the Aroclors or -- excuse me. 6 Were all the plasticizers with Aroclors 7 discontinued at the same time? 8 A. I think they were, but I am not sure. 9 Q. On the first page of these notes under 10 item 3 it says, "Hartford, Conn, publicity PCB in 11 fish." That's my interpretation of this 12 handwriting. 13 Does that ring any bells concerning 14 discussions you had with people listed above on 15 Exhibit 552 concerning toxicity of Aroclors? 16 A. No, I don't recall that. 17 Q. Were there any products produced by the 18 plasticizer group that were used in food 19 production? 2 0 A. I am sorry. In food? 2 1 Q . Yes. 2 2 A. Not in food production. We had a 2 3 product, not an Aroclor, that was used in food 2 4 wrap, a clear vinyl food wrap, but it was not an 2 5 Aroclor product. 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 iuv> FAX 415-512-1241 80 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027890 1 Q. It was not an Aroclor product? 2 A. No. My recollection is that product 3 required FDA approval. 4 Q. Was there any -- was there ever any 5 discussion within Monsanto about the taste of 6 Aroclors precluding their use in contact with food? 7 A. I have no recollection of any 8 conversation like that. 9 Q. Okay. Could you read the text down at 10 the bottom of page TRAN 021750 where it says, 11 "J. Fallon," question mark? 12 A. Uh-huh. 13 Q. Does that refresh your recollection of 14 any discussions concerning the taste of Aroclors 15 precluding their use in food? 16 A . No, it doesn't. 17 Q. What about rub-down oil, any discussion 18 of the use of Aroclors in rub-down oil? 19 A. Not that I recall. 2 0 Q. Are you familiar with a product called 2 1 Electrisol? 2 2 A. Not really, no. 2 3 Q. Have you ever heard of it? 24 A. No, not that I recall. 25 Q. Was there any discussion lead by 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 tncr FAX 415-512-1241 81 42 Digital Drive. Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027891 Dr. Tucker concerning finding PCBs in four out of five samples of Electrisol? 3 A. I don't recall. 4 Q. Was there discussion at Monsanto about an 5 incident in Pensacola involving the discharge of 6 Aroclors? 7 A. I don't recall. 8 Q. Do you recall any discussion at any 9 meeting about the toxicity of Aroclors, discussing 10 the anchovies and the presence of PCBs in 11 anchovies? 12 A. I don't recall that. 13 Q. Could you look in the middle of the page 14 that has 21752 at the bottom? Next to the middle 15 item it states, "Publicity from Oregon state, 16 attachment D," and then some words I can't read, 17 then, "Anacopa Island -- Brown Pelican, anchovies 18 hundreds of parts per million -- not confirmed by 19 mass spec." 2 0 Did this refresh your recollection about 2 1 any discussion concerning anchovies? 22 A. No, it doesn't. 2 3 Q. Do you recall an ad hoc committee on PCBs being formed to report to you and Mr. Bergen concerning a plan for dealing with evidence 3t,, Suite 400 CA 94105 15-512-1234 PAY 41 *.^1 9-1 941 82 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027892 -..r. concerning the persistence of PCBs in the environment? 3 MR. PREUSS: Addressed to them alone? 4 MS. GRADY: Yes, to them alone. 5 THE WITNESS: No, I don't recall that. 6 MS. GRADY: Q. Okay. Could you look at 7 the bottom of 21753 where it says, "Conclusion"? 8 And read that, if you can. 9 A. Uh-huh. 10 Q. If you can't, I can give you my best 11 rendition of it and see if that refreshes your 12 recollection concerning the creation of an Aroclor 13 ad hoc committee. 14 MR. PREUSS: That was to report to him 15 and Bergen alone? . 16 MS. GRADY: Correct. 17 THE WITNESS: I can read the note, but I 18 don't recall anything about that. 19 MS. GRADY: Q. What's the first time 2 0 that you recall management above your level of 2 1 Mr. Bergen's level being involved with the issue of 2 2 Aroclors and their persistence in the environment? 2 3 A. I can't -- I can't give you a date. I 24 don't -- I don't have a clear recollection of -- of 2 5 when that happened. 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 CAY /(IK.KI 0-1 0/11 83 42 Digital DriverSuit 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMONOQ27893 I 1 Q. Do you have any recollection? 2 A. No, I don't. 3 Q. Did you have the authority as business 4 director of the plasticizers group to change the 5 label on plasticizers that contained Aroclors? 6 A. Did I have the authority? Probably not. 7 As I recall, labeling would be proposed by the 8 marketing department. It would have to be checked 9 by someone in the medical department. And it 10 probably had to be approved by someone in the 11 patent department or law department who was 12 concerned with trademarks. So that a label change 13 was not a simple situation. 14 Q. Is that same process that you described, 15 is that true of a warning label on a product? 16 A. I could say probably as close as I can 17 get to that because that also would be a label 18 change. That would be my recollection is that it 19 probably did. 2 0 Q. When you were business director of 2 1 plasticizers, what was your understanding about 2 2 whether if you wanted to change the warning label 2 3 on Aroclor containing plasticizer products, you had 24 to get the approval of your boss? 2 5 A. My recollection is that it wasn't my boss 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400. San Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 84 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949...... 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027894 -.ft ' 1 that you went to for approval. it was to the 2 appropriate department of specialists like the 3 marketing department, the medical department and 4 the patent department. 5 Q. Are you talking about the marketing 6 department that reported to you? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. So you, the head of the business, wanted 9 to change the warning label on the products, you 10 still had to have the approval of the marketing 11 people that worked for you? 12 A. Yes, they -- well, they would do it. I 13 didn't change labels. They changed labels. They 14 would make a proposal to change and we would get 15 the staff department specialist to agree or 16 disagree. 17 Q. So the genesis for the change -- for a 18 change in labels came from the marketing department 19 up? 2 0 A. Yes. 2 1 MS. GRADY: Gentlemen, it's 12:30. I 2 2 have no particular preference as to when we break 2 3 for lunch. I don't know if you have reservations 2 4 anywhere or not. 2 5 MR. PREUSS: Whatever you like. 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-51 2-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 85 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949. 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027895 i MS. GRADY: Why don't we go for another 15 minutes if that's okay with you? MR. PREUSS: Sure. 4 MS. GRADY: Q. Okay. The next exhibit 5 is 553, which I will describe for the record as a 6 one-page document bearing Bates number TRAN 058985 7 purporting to be a memorandum from E.V. John to a 8 list of recipients. Mr. Springgate is shown as a 9 CC and the memo purports to be dated August 25th, 10 1969 . 11 And I would ask that you read this 12 memorandum, Mr. Springgate. 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 15 Exhibit 553 was marked 16 for identification.) 17 MS. GRADY: Q. Does this refresh your 18 recollection in any way about the formation of an 19 ad hoc committee to report on PCB related issues? 2 0 MR. PREUSS: To him and Mr. Bergen only? 2 1 MS. GRADY: Right. We are getting to 22 that one. 2 3 THE WITNESS: No, it really doesn't. No, 24 I don't recall this. 2 5 MS. GRADY: Q. Do you recall an ad hoc 9 Stevensen St, Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 86 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027896 i committee meeting -- excuse me -- an ad hoc meeting to be formed to report to a PCB committee? A. No, I don't. I remember a PCB task 4 force, but I don't think this was the particular 5 group that I remember. So I don't recall the -6 Q. Was there a PCB committee that you were a 7 member of? 8 A. I don't recall. 9 Q. The next exhibit is 555, which I will 10 describe for the record as a multi-paged document 11 bearing Bates numbers TRAN 024250 through 24262. 12 It purports to be dated October 2d, 1969. The 13 subject: Report of Aroclor Ad Hoc Committee, to 14 Howard S. Bergen, Jr., James E. Springgate, from a 15 list of names. And it's stamped Company 16 Confidential and Confidential. 17 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 18 Exhibit 555 was marked 19 for identification.) 2 0 MS. GRADY: Q. Why don't you flip 2 1 through this, Mr. Springgate, and see if you recall 2 2 seeing this report before? 2 3 A. I really don't recall this committee. 24 Q. Are you familiar with any policies Monsanto had concerning the stamping of documents 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 an Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 87 42 Digital Drive. Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027897 I 1 Company Confidential? 2 A. Let's see. We used that stamp on 3 practically all business plans and I think they 4 came about -- we had some information stolen now 20 5 years ago and after that we went to a program 6 whereby we stamped almost everything Company 7 Confidential. 8 Q. Can I direct your attention to 24252, 9 which says up at the top "Objectives" - 10 A. 252? 11 Q . Yes. 12 -- and ask you to read that page? 13 A. Uh-huh, I have. I have read it. 14 Q. Was there discussion at Monsanto about 15 how to protect continued sales and profits of 16 products containing Aroclor in connection with 17 information about the persistence of Aroclors in 18 the environment? 19 A. Yes, there was. 2 0 Q. And did you participate in that 2 1 discussion? 22 A. I am not referring -- the broad subject 2 3 is, was there a conversation? Yes, I am sure there 24 was. Did I participate in those conversations? 25 Yes, I did, the section of my plasticizer business 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAY 419-910-1041 88 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027898 1 group. 2 Q. Who did you talk to about that subject? 3 A. I would say I talked to my boss at the 4 time, who was Ernie Robson probably. And I am sure 5 I talked to Howard Bergen and I talked to our 6 research people. I talked to our marketing people 7 I am sure. 8 Q. Did you talk to Howard Bergen about how 9 to save products that had Aroclors in them from 10 being discontinued? 11 A. I don't remember a specific reference. I 12 don't remember a specific conversation. 13 Q. But you remember that you had such 14 conversations; is that correct? 15 A. I don't recall. 16 Q. So do you recall anyone that you talked 17 to saving the profits and sales from plasticizer 18 products that contained Aroclors? 19 A. I remember talking to my marketing 2 0 manager, who was Mr. Schalk at that time, but I 2 1 don't have specific memory of specific 2 2 conversations. 2 3 Q. Did you have the authority to discontinue 2 4 a product based on health reasons, health warning 25 reasons or adverse health reasons, I guess? St., Suite 400 i, CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 89 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027899 I A . Yes, sure. Q. Did you recommend a discontinuation of 3 the plasticizer products that contained Aroclors? 4 A . No . 5 Q. Did you recommend against such 6 discontinuation? 7 A. Well, they were a product of the line. 8 You don't have to recommend against. They were a 9 product of commerce. And my recollection is that 10 at some point in time when scientific data was 11 being developed and there then became a body of 12 knowledge, the science of how did this material get 13 distributed in the environment, a higher level 14 group of Monsanto managers than my level made the 15 decision that plasticizer products would be 16 discontinued. I remember they didn't happen to ask 17 me to vote on that subject. 18 Q. When you say it was a product of the 19 line, it was a product of commerce, were you 2 0 suggesting that the role of the business director 2 1 is to champion the products and the decisions about 2 2 discontinuing the products are made at a higher 2 3 1eve1? . MR. PREUSS: I will object. It's a mischaracterization of his testimony, 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 90 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027900 1 argumentative. 2 MS. GRADY: Q. You can answer. 3 A. Aroclors continued -- my recollection is 4 they constituted 20 percent of the plasticizer 5 line. They had some reasonable profit attached to 6 that 20 percent of our business. And before I 7 would give up 20 percent of the business, I would 8 want to be sure that discontinuing the product line 9 was justified. So your first inclination is to 10 defend it. And so we did defend it until the 11 science was developed as to how this environmental 12 contamination occurred. 13 Now, during that same period of time the 14 groupings overseeing the PCB problem kept being 15 raised higher and higher levels of Monsanto. So I 16 do recall that eventually the internal Monsanto 17 executive committee type of people were receiving 18 reports. And my recollection is they made the 19 final decision of discontinuing the product, all of 2 0 which is kind of normal course of events. 2 1 Q. Did there ever come a time prior to the 2 2 discontinuation or the decision by this higher 23 level of Monsanto executives to discontinue the 2 4 plasticizers that contained Aroclors? Did there 2 5 ever come a time when you stopped defending the 9 Stevenson St.. Suite.400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 CQ inct FAX 415-512-1241 91 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027901 t 1 products? 2 A. Well, what we had underway was trying to 3 understand the problem and develop a larger and 4 larger body of data, scientific data, and to try to 5 understand what this PCB environmental problem 6 really was and was not. And my recollection is 7 everything that PCBs were accused of polluting, 8 honestly it wasn't all true. So PCBs were -- it 9 turns out after you develop all the scientific 10 data, they were being reasonably widely dispersed. 11 So you have to go through this period of 12 time of developing scientific data. As I say, this 13 is a science based company. We like to understand 14 what we are doing. So did I personally shift from 15 defending to voluntarily agreeing to reduce the 16 product line? I frankly don't recall. This is 24 17 years ago or whatever. 18 MS. GRADY: Why don't we break? 19 (Whereupon, the proceedings were 2 0 adjourned at 12:40 p.m. for a lunch break.) 2 1 --0O0-22 23 24 25 3t., Suite 400 CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 92 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027902 i AFTERNOON SESSION 1:35 P.M. EXAMINATION BY MS. GRADY (continued) 3 MS. GRADY: Q. Mr. Springgate, can I 4 turn your attention or direct your attention to the 5 page that says page 6 up at the top and page 24257 6 down at the bottom? That second paragraph 7 discusses an incident involving milk. Could you 8 read that paragraph, please? 9 A. Okay. I have read it. 10 Q. Do you recall anything about an incident 11 in Maryland involving finding PCBs in milk? 12 A. No, I don't. 13 Q. Okay. The last paragraph on this page, 14 could you read that, please? 15 Just so it is clear since we have' all 16 been off on our lunch break, we are on Exhibit 555, 17 which is the report -- purported report of the 18 Aroclor ad hoc committee to Mr. Bergen and 19 Springgate. 2 0 A. I do recall that highway marking paints - 2 1 I remember some conversation about that apparently 2 2 contained -- some paints contained Aroclor. 2 3 Q. Was that a product of the plasticizer 2 4 group? 2 5 A. Yes, correct. Yes, it was. 9 Stevenson St., Suite.400, San Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 93 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027903 l 1 Q. Did Monsanto actually manufacture the 2 highway working paints or components that were used 3 by - 4 A. I think just the Aroclor that was sold to 5 the paint manufacturer. 6 Q. So did the plasticizer group sell pure 7 Aroclor for end uses that involved plastics or 8 vinyls? 9 A. That's correct. We sold -- that's a 10 correct way to state it. We sold pure Aroclors and 11 then the vinyl fabricator would mix it with vinyl 12 to makes things like seat covers or would mix it 13 with a paint formulation to create a paint. So 14 what we sold were Aroclors. 15 Q. Did the plasticizer group sell pure 16 Aroclors to NCR to be used in the manufacture of 17 carbonless carbon paper? 18 A. It's my recollection we did, yes. 19 Q. Then the Santicizer product, was that a 2 0 product that was blended with Aroclors and 2 1 something else by Monsanto, or was that pure 2 2 Aroclor? 2 3 A.. My recollection is that the Santicizer 2 4 products were pure Aroclors. It just had our 2 5 Santicizer trade name as a plasticizer. We called 9 Stevenson.St...Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 ( /u> me: FAX 415-512-1241 94 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949...... 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027904 it Santicizer XYZ, whatever the number was, but it was pure Aroclor. 3 Q. Were the Aroclors sold for different end 4 users by the plasticizer group in any way different 5 from a chemical composition standpoint? 6 A. I am sorry. I don't understand that. 7 Q. Let me rephrase. The Aroclor that you 8 sold to people that made paint, was it different in 9 any way than the Aroclor you sold under the 10 Santicizer brand? 11 A. It was -- my recollection would be it was 12 one of those that we sold under the Santicizer 13 brand. We had a series. It was sold under the 14 Santicizer brand and that was one of the series. 15 . Q. So one of the series of Santicizer was 16 pure Aroclor; is that correct? 17 A. I believe all the series of Santicizers 18 were pure Aro -- no. Sorry about that. We had a 19 total of 30 or 40 products, most of them with the 2 0 Santicizer trade name. It's a Monsanto trade name. 2 1 Of that group of 30 or 40 products, my recollection 22 would be that there were ten or 12 that were 2 3 Aroclor products. They were also sold under the 24 Santicizer trade name. 25 Q. Does -- do you recall any discussion i9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 >an Francisco, CA 94105 H 5-512-1234 CQ i _ /V ina FAX 415-512-1241 95 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027905 f 1 among the PCB group that you were a part of of oil 2 and/or grease applications of Monsanto products 3 being suspect for putting PCBs into the 4 environient? 5 A. Well, I don't remember that -- I don't 6 recall the specific instance of this particular 7 memo. My recollection was that we were looking at 8 all the uses of Aroclor and trying to identify 9 those that would most likely be the environmental 10 contaminants, and the -- I do recall that the 11 highway marking paint was interesting because we 12 thought if the paint came off the highway in a rain 13 storm, it probably went into the environment. 14 So we were looking at those -- we were 15 trying to develop some data -- some scientific data 16 that would close the gap between the products we 17 sold and where it wound up in the environment. We 18 were trying to understand how it got there. 19 And then again we had some products we 2 0 knew that -- or we found out that would have very 2 1 broad distribution, such as the product in the 2 2 carbonless carbon paper. And we had some products 2 3 we knew would have extremely limited distribution 2 4 which would be the -- the, fluid that was used for electrical transformers and the fluids that would 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 .an Francisco, CA 94105 15-51 2-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 96 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027906 1 be used for industrial equipment, the either the 2 transmission fluids or the hydraulic fluid because 3 that was more contained uses. 4 Q. Do you recall any discussion of the uses 5 of oil and/or -- and/or grease lubricants? 6 A. I don't recall that. 7 Q. Did you play any part in notifying 8 Monsanto manufacturing plants that they should be 9 aware that there was a potential environmental 10 problem with Aroclors? 11 A. I don't recall that specifically. 12 Q. Based on your experience, who do you 13 think would have had the responsibility if the 14 plants were to be notified that there was a 15 potential problem with Aroclors? Who would be 16 responsible for notifying them? 17 A. My experience would be that the business 18 group directors would notify their manufacturing 19 managers, who in turn would notify the plants. 2 0 Q. Down at the bottom of what's noted as 2 1 page 9, up at the top, which is kind of a confusing 2 2 direction, in that last paragraph there's some 2 3 discussion of electric dishwashing compounds. 2 4 Could you read that paragraph, please? 2 5 A. Uh-huh. I have read it. 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 >an Francisco, CA 94105 H 5-512-1234 CQ f _ /Vrf ;cj incr FAX 415-512-1241 97 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027907 i 1 Q. After you left -- sometime after you left 2 the plasticizer group, you were head of the 3 phosphates and detergents group; is that correct? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. Do you recall any discussion while you 6 were head of plasticizers about possible 7 contamination of dishwasher compounds by PCBs? 8 A. I do not remember that, no. 9 Q. Did that ever come up while you were -- 10 you were in the phosphate and detergent business? 11 A. Not to the best of my recollection. 12 Q. Did Monsanto's business involve 13 formulation of products for consumer use? 14 A. Monsanto sold raw materials to the big 15 detergent manufacturers. Like we sold the raw 16 materials to Proctor Gamble, Colgate and Lever 17 Brothers. They in turn formulated dish detergent 18 and laundry detergent. 19 Q. Could I direct your attention to page 10 20 of Exhibit 55 under the heading of Assignment of 2 1 Full-Time Effort and ask you to read those two 2 2 paragraphs? Actually, I guess it continues onto 2 3 the next page. Why don't you just read the first 24 two paragraphs though? '. 25 A. Okay. I have read that. 9 Stevenson St.. Suite 400. ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 i_ ~Q 'Cl v incf FAX 415-512-1241 98 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949.. 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027908 S 1 Q. Does -- do these paragraphs refresh your 2 recollection in any way concerning when 3 Mr. Papageorge was brought in to head up the PCB 4 efforts? 5 A. Not in regard to when. I remember that 6 he was brought in, but I don't remember the timing. 7 Q. Did you play any role in recommending 8 that someone be brought in to head up Monsanto's 9 PCB monitoring efforts? 10 A. I don't recall. 11 Q. Do you recall ever making a presentation 12 to the CDC or the CMC concerning bringing in a 13 coordinator for PCB activities? 14 A. I don't recall that, no. I should 15 explain to you. I have probably made hundreds of 16 presentations to that group, but I don't recall 17 that one. 18 Q. Do you recall whether you played any role 19 in Mr. Papageorge getting the job? 2 0 A. I don't recall. 2 1 Q. The next exhibit we will look at is 557. 2 2 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 2 3 Exhibit 557 was marked 2 4 for identification.) 25 MS. GRADY: Q. Let me go back for just a 1-9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 5an Francisco, CA 94105 U 5-51 2-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 99 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027909 1 second to 555. I can't remember if I asked you 2 this question or not. If you look at the first 3 page of Exhibit 555, it purports to be a report to 4 just Mr. Bergen and you. 5 Do you recall having some sort of 6 oversight responsibility with Mr. Bergen for PCB 7 activities prior to Mr. Papageorge's appointment? 8 A. Yes. I would recall that we did. We 9 each operated a business group that manufactured 10 and sold Aroclors. 11 Q. And did your shared responsibility with 12 Mr. Bergen, was that a job that was assigned to you 13 from up above or was it one that kind of naturally 14 flowed your responsibilities? 15 A. The normal course of events since we were 16 the business directors of the products. 17 Q. Exhibit 557 purports to be a one-page 18 memorandum from Mr. Bergen to a list of people 19 including Mr. Springgate dated October 27th, 1969, 2 0 subject PCB pollution problem, CDC presence. It 2 1 purports to be dated -- I already said this, right - 2 2 October 27th, 1969 and the Bates number is TRAN 2 3 F8986 . . 2 4 Mr. Springgate, have you had a chance to 2 5 look at Exhibit 557? 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 100 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato. CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027910 t 1 A. Yes, I have. 2 Q. Have you ever seen this exhibit or this 3 document before? 4 A. I don't recall this exhibit. 5 Q. Does the form look familiar to you? 6 A. Yes, it does. 7 Q. Is this the form in which inter-corporate 8 communications inside Monsanto were carried out? 9 A . Yes , it i s . 10 Q. When was the -- was the first presence 11 you -- strike that 12 What i s the CDC? 13 A. I think it stood for Corporate 14 Development Committee -- Corporate Development 15 Committee, words to that effect. 16 Q. And was that group renamed at some point 17 to the Corporate Management Committee? 18 A. I don't recall. I don't recall. 19 Q. I have seen references to both a CDC and 2 0 a CMC. Do you remember if those were the same 2 1 group that had its named changed at some point? 2 2 A. I would believe that they are. Q. And who were members of the CDC? A. The members were usually the heads of the various divisions of Monsanto and the heads of the 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 >an Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 lner FAX 415-512-1241 101 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027911 1 various staff departments of Monsanto, including 2 the president of the company, in other words, the 3 top internal officers of the company. 4 Q. Can we go back to that organization chart 5 we looked at this morning, which I think was the 6 first exhibit, Exhibit 539? 7 A. Uh-huh. 8 Q. At what level does membership on the CDC 9 start, if that's shown on this chart? 10 A. With Mr. Cunningham, the top man. 11 Q. He's the managing director; is that 12 correct? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. He's managing director of Monsanto 15 Industrial Chemicals Company? 16 A. That is correct. 17 Q. How many managing directors approximately 18 were there? 19 A. They were probably about five at that 2 0 time . 2 1 Q. In '72 or thereabouts? 2 2 A. (Nods head.) 2 3 Q. Correct? 24 A. About five in 1972. ' 25 Q. You indicated that in addition to the i9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 >an Francisco, CA 94105 U 5-512-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 102 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato. CA 94949 ... 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027912 1 heads of the divisions, there would be heads of the 2 operating staffs; is that what you were saying? 3 A. What we would call staff departments. 4 Q. Staff departments? 5 A. Meaning the head of the legal department, 6 the head of the personnel department, and we -- at 7 different points in time they would have a man who 8 would be called the vice-president of marketing. 9 So these were people who were head of staff 10 departments in addition to the people who were 11 heads of the line operating units of Monsanto. 12 Q. So it was the idea that the staff 1 3 department's interests ran across the various 14 business lines? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Where was the vice-president from 17 marketing drawn? 18 A. The -- for many years they had a 19 vice-president of marketing who was in essence a 2 0 staff advisor to the president. He was not one of 2 1 the functional marketing managers. 2 2 Q. You mentioned earlier that you made 2 3 hundreds of presentations to the CDC; is that 2 4 correct? 25 A. Correct. 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 >an Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 103 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato. CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027913 I 1 Q. Did you come to form an understanding of 2 what their role was within Monsanto? 3 A. Yes, I would think so. 4 Q. What was your understanding? 5 A. Their role was advisors to the president. 6 Their role would be responsible to the president 7 for plans, future plans, business plans; and their 8 role would be to contribute to individual business 9 units where they had functional expertise. In 10 other words, the personnel director would provide 11 expertise to a business unit through a committee. 12 Q. How did you -- did you see a difference 13 between your role vis-a-vis the president of 14 Monsanto and the role of the CDC? 15 A. Try that again. 16 Q. You testified that you understood the 17 role of the CDC in part to be as advisors to the 18 president. 19 A. Uh-huh. 2 0 Q. How was that role different from the role 2 1 that you had as head of the plasticizers business? 2 2 A. Well, the CDC members were the most 2 3 experienced management within Monsanto. They were 24 also looking at issues across the corporation where 2 5 those like -- jobs like mine were working on issues 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 CQ r \/ a -t 104 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027914 i specific only to our business unit. They had a more broad outlook. I would say those were the two primary differences. Q. Did the CDC meet on a regular schedule? Let's say during the time period '68 to '72, if it 6 varied. 7 A. I don't recall. That may leave the wrong 8 impression. They would meet on more or less a 9 regular schedule, meaning it was not just to meet 10 for a crises of some kind. Yes, they did meet on a 11 reasonably regular schedule. 12 Q. You just don't recall? 13 A. I don't recall what the schedule was. 14 Q. What the interval of the meetings was? 15 A. No . 16 Q. Exhibit 557 states, "CDC has asked for a 17 status report and plan of action on a subject 18 p rob1em." 19 Do you recall talking -- making a 2 0 presentation to the CDC prior to October 1969 2 1 concerning PCB? 2 2 A. I don't recall it, no. 2 3 Q. Who's Jim Bryant? 2 4 A. I don't recall that either. I know -- I think I could identify most of the people on that 3t,, Suite 400 CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 105 42 Digital Drive. Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027915 i 1 list, but Jim Bryant I can't identify. 2 Q. Who's -- I think you already told me 3 this, but who's D.B. Hosmer? 4 A. He was a manufacturing manager. He was 5 always a manufacturing manager. What he was 6 assigned to at this specific point in time I am not 7 sure . 8 Q. Who gave presentations to the CDC? Was 9 there a certain level of Monsanto -- did you have 10 to be of a certain rank to go in and make a 11 presentation to the CDC? 12 A. No. I would say the routine reports on 13 sales and profitability were made by the heads of 14 the business units. And then any other subject 15 matter that came up, the reports would be made by 16 the people who had expertise in that subject, 17 whatever the subject may be. 18 Q. Do you remember making a presentation to 19 the CDC at any time on the issue of PCBs? 2 0 A. I don't recall that, no. 2 1 Q. Okay. 559 is the next exhibit, which I 2 2 will describe for the record as a multi-paged 2 3 document, Bates numbers TRAN 024713 through 737 on 24 the first page. Mr. Springgate's name appears in 2 5 handwriting. There's a date of November 17, 1969 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 an Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 r*A \/ A 4 C C4n 4nA4 106 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027916 i in the upper right-hand corner and the document is headed PCB Presentation to Corporate Development Committee. 4 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 5 Exhibit 559 was marked 6 for identification.) 7 MS. GRADY: Q. Mr. Springgate, is that 8 your handwriting -- I am sorry -- on the first page 9 of this exhibit? 10 A. I don't think so. It doesn't look like 11 it. 12 Q. Do you want to flip through and 13 familiarize yourself with the document? I am just 14 going to ask you a couple of things about -- in 15 particular down at the bottom of 24727 i.t says in 16 handwriting, "Turn over to Jim Springgate." From 17 there on maybe it looks more familiar. 18 A. Uh-huh. I have looked through this. 19 Q. Okay. Does looking through Exhibit 559 2 0 refresh your recollection about whether you made a 2 1 presentation to the Corporate Development -- excuse 2 2 me -- Corporate Development Committee concerning 2 3 PCBs ? 24 A. No, it doesn't. '. 2 5 Q. On the first page of this exhibit in the 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 :ci lncr FAY 41R-R19-1941 107 42.Digital.Drive,.Suite_9~ Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027917 ,,r> 1 fifth paragraph, there are the figures 22 followed 2 by an M with a line over it? 3 A. Uh-huh. 4 Q. In Monsanto's conventions, does that mean 5 22 million? 6 A. Correct, it does. 7 Q. What does an M without a line mean? I 8 have got one of those to show you too. 9 A. I don't know what this would mean. 10 Q. Okay. Look on page 24715. In the middle 11 of that -- the text it states, "funding 12 toxicological and analytical test program with 13 excess of 100," and it's followed by an M without a 14 line over it. Is there a Monsanto convention that 15 that means 100,000? 16 A. I would say no, it doesn't mean 100,000. 17 100,000 normally would be 100 K. And what 100 M 18 means I don't know. 19 Q. Probably doesn't mean 100 million, right? 2 0 So that doesn't look like a term -- a convention 2 1 that you are familiar with? 2 2 A. Just the bare M does not. 2 3 Q. Okay. Could you turn to the page that's 2 4 labeled up at the top page 4, which includes 2 5 figures broken out in various ways for plasticizers 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 ;an Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 CAV /11 C.C1 O.l O/H 108 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027918 1 and functional fluids? And I would ask you to 2 review the numbers for plasticizers and tell me if 3 those figures comport with your recollection of the 4 business at the time you were business director? 5 A. I would say those numbers appear to be 6 reasonable, to the best of my recollection, yes. 7 Q. So you recall that production was 8 approximately 34 million pounds per year in 9 Aroclors for the plasticizers business in 1969? 10 . A. That's a little more detail than I 11 recall. I recall that -- my recollection would be 12 that our plasticizers sales of 34 million pounds 13 and $6 million is a ballpark. 14 Q. What about the return on investment of 15 10.5 percent, does that sound like the right 16 ballpark? 17 A. I would say that's - 18 MR. PREUSS: For plasticizers or for 19 Aroclors? 2 0 MS. GRADY: For both, sorry. 2 1 THE WITNESS: That would be logical. I 2 2 don't recall the number, but it's not illogical. 2 3 MS. GRADY: Q. "Worldwide M/I," do you 2 4 know what that stands for? 25 A. It's market share. That's Monsanto over ^rstevensoTfSirSuite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 iflC. CAV /HK C-IO.IOvM 109 42-Digitai-DriverGuit 9-- Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027919 ( industry. Q. So this would indicate to you with your knowledge of Monsanto convention that that's 4 indicating that Monsanto had 62 percent of the 5 worldwide market in the Aroclor business? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. This states that there are two U.S. 8 plants, Anniston and Sauget? 9 A. Sauget, which is the one previously 10 referred to as Krummrich, the same location. 11 Q. In that case, this indicates that both 12 Anniston and Krummrich were producing Aroclor. 13 Does that refresh your recollection in any way? 14 A. No, it doesn't, but that's what it says. 15 Q. Could I direct your attention to a couple 16 of pages forward in the document? It's in 17 handwriting. Up at the top it says page 6. In 18 that first full paragraph where it states, "The 19 first load of Aroclor went out of Anniston, Alabama 2 0 to General Electric in 1931. Since then the market 2 1 has grown to one of Monsanto's most profitable 2 2 franchises," was -- at the time that you were 2 3 business director of the plasticizers group, was it 2 4 one of the most profitable business lines in Monsanto? : St., Suite 400 3, CA 94105 15-512-1234 ine: FAY AIR-.^IO-IOAI 110 42-Digital.Deiver5uite-9, Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027920 1 A. I doubt it, but I didn't write at that 2 text. I don't know what they had in mind. 3 Q. But your recollection is that it wasn't. 4 What about the Aroclor part? 5 MR. PREUSS: Did you say "was" or "was 6 not"? 7 MS. GRADY: Was not. 8 THE WITNESS: Was not would be my 9 recollection. 10 MS. GRADY: Q. What about the Aroclor 11 portion of the plasticizer business? Did he ever 12 break out the numbers that way, to your 13 recollection, in terms of profit? 14 A. Within the plasticizer business, it was 15 the most profitable as a percent of sales, but it 16 was not the most profitable in terms of total 17 dollars. 18 Q. So it wasn't? 19 A. It wasn't the biggest things we had in a 2 0 plasticizer. 2 1 Q. Could I direct your attention to the page 2 2 that's labeled 8 up at the top - 2 3 At the bottom it says 24270. 2 4 A. Uh-huh. 2 5 Q. -- and ask you to read those 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 an Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 CQ FAX 415-512-1241 111 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027921 \ alternatives? 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. Alternative 2 states, "Go out of total 4 Aroclor business was considered unacceptable from a 5 Divisional viewpoint, but from a Corporate 6 viewpoint may be necessary. Only you can make that 7 decision." 8 A. Right. 9 Q. Based on your years of working at 10 Monsanto, did you understand there to be on certain 11 occasions a difference between a divisional 12 viewpoint and a corporate viewpoint? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. What did the corporate viewpoint refer 15 t o ? .' 16 A. Well, the -- a corporate viewpoint from 17 higher level people is what it really means, may 18 decide to go out of the business and suffer the 19 loss of sales and the loss of profitability; that 2 0 lower level people would never come to that same 2 1 conclusion. 2 2 Q. How did you decide what decisions had to 2 3 be made by the CDC and what decisions could be made 24 by business -- at the business director or 2 5 divisional manager level? St., Suite 400 i, CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAY A1R-.F19-19A1 112 42 Digital Driver Suited Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027922 1 A. At the business director/business manager C' c /i/t <- <- S/ C a/ 2 level, we were working on a scientific e-x-sd^rs-ro'ri to 3 the problem that we were convinced that we could 4 find meaning -- we could put together with the 5 source of the Aroclors that wound up as an 6 environmental contaminant and could eventually 7 determine exactly what was contaminating whatever 8 portion of the environment we were looking at. And 9 we were convinced that all Aroclors were not 10 environmental contaminants; that those that would 11 go into things -- carbonless carbon paper may very 12 well turn out to be the item contaminating the 13 scene, but those enclosed systems probably were not 14 contaminating the environment and we should be able 15 to separate those two. 16 So from a business point of view, 17 business unit point of view, we thought that over a 18 period of time we could separate out the offenders 19 from those who were not the offenders. Now, from 2 0 the corporate point of view, again, higher levels 2 1 of management more experienced people, better 2 2 backgrounds, they may reach the conclusion that 2 3 you, the business director, have an interesting point of view; but we, corporate management, don't share it with you. We will go out of the business 9 Stevenson-Sb;.Suite 400. ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 113 42. Digital Drive. Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027923 t 1 entirely. They sometimes reached different 2 decisions due to greater experience, more broad 3 4 Q. Was -- how did you decide it was an issue 5 that could only be -- that could only be determined 6 by the higher level management? 7 A. Typically that is determined by higher 8 level management. Lower level people usually 9 believe they can solve all their own problems. 10 Higher level people often say, "Explain your 11 problem to me and I will share in the decision with 12 you." And in this particular case, I don't know 13 which method or how it got there. 14 Q. On page 16, this is part of the document 15 that relates to plasticizers. Up at the top it 16 says, "Comments distinctions from FF." FF in 17 Monsanto parlance is functional fluids; is that 18 correct? 19 A. Correct, uh-huh. 2 0 Q. And the first point is "large number of 2 1 direct U.S. customers - 570." 2 2 Does that comport with your recollection 2 3 of the number of customers U.S. plasticizers 24 business had? 2 5 A. Yes. I don't remember the specific ,9.Stev.enson-St.^SuiteL4O0 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 114 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949..... 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027924 number, but we had many, many customers. Q. And was it also your understanding the functional fluids group had direct customers? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. On the next page, page 17, there's a 6 chart that has three columns, "Markets, 1968 7 Sales," and, "Major Aroclor used." And the first 8 product listed is carbonless carbon paper. The 8.8 9 million pounds as reflected on this document and 10 the major Aroclor used is Aroclor 1242. 11 Does that -- do you have any reason to 12 believe that the major Aroclor, carbonless carbon 13 paper, was not Aroclor 1242? 14 A. No, I don't have any reason to doubt that 15 that is accurate. 16 Q. On page 18 there's another chart that is 17 showing applications for various products and 18 there's a product or a market -- excuse me - 19 described as "hot melt adhesives." 2 0 Does that ring a bell with you as a 2 1 product of the plasticizer group? 22 A. Yes, it does. 23 Q. And it says that the source -- I am sorry that the heading for this chart was possible contamination sources. It says here the source, -9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 H 5-512-1234 c*njb: FAX 415-512-1241 115 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027925 i 1 "Contact with product via packaging. 2 Incineration." 3 Was there a -- was product packaging 4 identified as a potential problem with the use of 5 PCBs? 6 A. I don't recall. 7 Q. I can't tell what this page is labeled. 8 So down at the bottom it's 24733. Let me ask you a 9 general question first. 10 When presentations were made -- well, 11 that's not going to work. Strike that. 12 Do you recall having any group meetings 13 with the medical department, the law department, 14 the functional fluids department and the 15 plasticizers department about PCBs? 16 A. I remember generally having meetings, 17 yes . 18 Q. But you don't have any specific 19 recollection of preparing for CDC presentations; is 2 0 that correct? 2 1 A. No. 2 2 Q. Item 2 here is "notify all Aroclor 2 3 customers of PCB problem and relabel containers 24 within 60 days." 25 Do you recall any discussion concerning 9^eii/efT5frSCSalts^4t30~ San Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 me: CAV /HK.C10.10/11 116 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027926 i 1 the relabeling of PCB containing products? 2 A. No, I don't, 3 Q. Item 10 on the next page says -- and this 4 is still part of the recommended action plan - 5 "Determine feasibility and cost of eliminating 5/6 6 C12 in Aroclors 1242 and 1248," and then has a date 7 of 3/70. 8 Do you know what 5/6 C12 is or 9 represents? 10 A. No, I don't. 11 Q. Does that represent higher chlorinated 12 isomers and Aroclors? 13 A. I don't know. I don't know. The degree 14 of chlorination is the 42 and 48, I think, but I 15 don't know what that means. 16 Q. Is there a discussion of lawsuits -- did 17 you have discussions of lawsuits that could be 18 filed against Monsanto related to Monsanto's use of 19 Aroclors? 2 0 A. I don't remember a discussion of lawsuits 2 1 that could be filed. No, I don't. 2 2 Q. Okay. Exhibit 560. 2 3 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 24 Exhibit 560 was marked 25 for identification.) 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 !an Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 r-a \/ a a rr cm a r\ a a 117 ^Digital-Driver-Suite- 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027927 ~f\ 1 MS. GRADY: Q. For the record, I will 2 describe this as a three-page document, TRAN 023298 3 through 023301, headed Minutes of Meeting of the 4 Corporate Development Committee, November 17th, 5 1969. And then it has a list of people who were 6 present. And I would ask you to look at this, 7 Mr. Springgate, sufficiently so that you can tell 8 me if you recall seeing this document before. 9 A. I don't recall seeing this document. 10 Q. Is this a form ofdocument that you are 11 familiar with? 12 A. Yes, it is. 13 Q. Is this how minutes of CDC meetings were 14 typically provided to you? 15 A. Yes, it is. 16 Q. On the versions that you got, were there 17 blanks as there are on this version? So, for 18 example, on the first page, there's a large white 19 area and on the second page there's a large white 2 0 area and on the third page there's a large white 2 1 area . 2 2 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. You know what I described -- the document 2 4 the exhibit actually goes to page 301. Sorry. 2 5 And what did you understand to be -- why 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400. ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 me: PAV A1Z-X19-19A1 118 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027928 .JT> ' 1 were you getting these documents with big white 2 spaces on them? 3 A. Because we were getting copies of 4 decisions that affected our business and they were 5 not sending us copies of subject matter that did 6 not affect our business. Item 1 could have been a 7 personnel issue, nothing to do with my business. 8 Q. Did the CDC presentations that you 9 attended out of the hundreds you made -- you 10 attended or made presentations to, was it typical 11 for the committee to make a decision on the spot? 12 A. Typically, no. Sometimes there were - 13 decisions were not even necessary. They were 14 reviews of financial subjects and decisions were 15 not required. Typically I would say decisions were 16 not made on the spot while the presenters were in 17 the room. Instead they would take it under 18 advisement and make a decision later. 19 Q. Was there some understanding or some - 2 0 did you have any understanding as to what your 2 1 batting average was in terms of making 2 2 recommendations to the CDC of their going along 2 3 with those recommendations? . 24 A. Yes. 2 5 Q. What was it? 9 Stevensor 3t., Suite 400 >an Franciscc CA 94105 15-512-1234 me: 119 42- Digital Drive, Suite-9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027929 i 1 A. Extremely high because you don't make bad 2 recommendations to your boss. 3 Q. So an attempt was made, I take it from 4 your last answer, to try to give them a 5 recommendation that they were going to approve; is 6 that correct? 7 A. A recommendation that you believed was 8 the right recommendation for the corporation and 9 therefore you would expect them to approve it. 10 MR. PREUSS: Kind of like advising 11 clients. 12 THE WITNESS: Right. 13 MR. PREUSS: You only get so many bats. 14 MS. GRADY: Q. Okay. Down at the bottom 15 of 23301 there's a section called "Conclusions." 16 Could you read that, please? 17 A. Uh-huh. 18 Q. Was the continued production of Aroclor 19 1254 and 1260 one of the times that the CDC did not 2 0 agree with one of your recommendations? 2 1 A. I am sorry, but I am a bit confused. 2 2 What is this? Minutes of a meeting. 2 3 Q. Let me see if I can help you. If you 24 look up above at items 4 and 5 on that same page, 2 5 this purports to be -- all of these items purport 19 Stevenson St., Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 115-512-1234 ej inc' PAY 12 0 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027930 1 to be a summary of the presentation made to the CDC 2 which was also the case with the document that we 3 looked at that was Exhibit 559. 4 Just to shortcut rehashing what all of 5 those recommendations were, if you look at 4 and 5, 6 it indicates that the recommendation being made to 7 the CDC was to educate customers on need to reduce 8 and effectively control PCB effluents at their 9 plants and develop and implement new packaging 10 systems for Aroclor 1254 and 1260. And then down 11 at the bottom under "Conclusions: The division is 12 instructed to develop a program to discontinue 13 these products," referring to Aroclors 1254 and 14 1260, "and report this to the committee." 15 So my question with all that being 16 preamble is, was the -- your recommendation 17 concerning Aroclors 1254 and 1260 one of the times 18 when the CDC did not go along with or did not agree 19 with your recommendation? 2 0 MR. PREUSS: I will object as assuming 2 1 facts not in evidence. 2 2 THE WITNESS: I can't answer yes to that 2 3 either. This is not clear to me at all. The 24 division is instructed to -- I am reading -- the 2 5 division is instructed to develop a program to -9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 Jan Francisco, CA 94105 4 5-51 2-1234. FAX 415-512-1241 12 1 42 Digital Drive. Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027931 i discontinue these products and report this. MS. GRADY: Q. Okay. Why don't we look back -- let me -- just in terms of seeing if we can 4 refresh your recollection here, why don't we look 5 back at Exhibit 559? At alternative 3 on page 6 24720 where the document states, "Alternative 3: 7 Go out of Aroclor 1254 and 1260. This was 8 seriously considered and may eventually occur by 9 our actions and customer actions, nevertheless, we 10 feel that segments of this business are defensible 11 or are so 'confined' in use that specific plans of 12 action are called for this portion." 13 Does that refresh your recollection 14 whether your recommendation concerning the 15 continued marketing of 1254 and 1260 was. one of the 16 times when the CDC did not agree with your 17 recommendation? 18 MR. PREUSS: Well, again, Counsel, I am 19 going to object as a mischaracterization. There's 2 0 nothing in there that says what you had represented 2 1 to be said. So it's argumentative and assuming 2 2 facts not in evidence. 2 3 THE WITNESS: I don't remember the 24 details about this and I don't have a clear 2 5 recollection of what happened and I frankly don't St., Suite 400 i, CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAX 415-519-1941 122 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027932 t 1 even understand. Under item 5 it says, "Develop 2 and implement a new packaging systems..." So, I - 3 "6, Introduce to market, replacement products..." 4 How would a conclusion be different from that? I 5 don't recall this and I don't understand it. 6 MS. GRADY: Q. Okay. Let's look at 7 Exhibit 561. 8 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 9 Exhibit 561 was marked 10 for identification.) 11 MS. GRADY: Q. It purports to be a 12 memorandum to Monsanto, Organic Chemicals Division, 13 Public Relations Report, dated October 1969 bearing 14 Bates numbers TRAN 058372 through 374. And it 15 shows distribution to a long list of people, one of 16 which is -- or purports to show distribution, one 17 of which is Mr. Springgate. 18 The same question as usual, 19 Mr. Springgate, do you recall seeing this document 2 0 before? 2 1 A. No, I don't. 2 2 Q. Is this document in a form that you 2 3 recognize? 24 A. Yes, it is. Q. And what is that form? 9 StevensoirStrr Suite 40(1 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 me. FAX 415-512-1241 12 3 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027933 1 A. This would be the form that the public 2 relations department used to notify the people in 3 the operating unit of any item that they had picked 4 up in the publications that were of interest to 5 this particular group of people. 6 Q. And do you recognize Exhibit 561 as the 7 type of document that you received on some sort of 8 regular basis from the public relations department? 9 A . Yes, it is. 10 Q. In that second paragraph it states, "A 11 memo to plant managers, communicators and field 12 offices alerted key Monsanto personnel to the 13 growing PCB controversy." 14 Do you recall playing any role in 15 alerting Monsanto personnel to PCB issues? 16 A. I remember that we did. How and which 17 date I don't recall. 18 Q. You don't recall if it was by memorandum 19 or some other means? 2 0 A. No, I don't. 2 1 Q. What means of communicating to the people 2 2 in the plant were there at the time you were head 2 3 of the plasticizers group? By that I mean were 2 4 there newsletters that regularly went out to the 2 5 Monsanto employees? Was there a report that went -9 Stevensen Stri-Suite 4qq ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 :ci incr FAX 415-512-1241 124 42 Digital Drive. Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027934 out on a quarterly basis or was information provided on an issue-by-issue basis, on no regular basis, or some combination of any or none of those? 4 A. Yes to all of the above. We had routine 5 plant newsletters, we had newsletters at Monsanto's 6 main office, we had routine monthly manufacturing 7 marketing and research reports, and we had memos on 8 specific subjects and phone calls and whatever on 9 specific subjects. 10 Q. You were physically located in Monsanto's 11 main offices; is that right? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. And there was a newsletter that went 14 around the main headquarters building; is that 15 right? 16 A. Yes, there was. 17 Q. Is it your recollection that that was 18 monthly? 19 A. Yeah, I would say that was monthly. 2 0 Q. And when you were at Nitro, were there 2 1 also plant newsletters that went around - 2 2 A. Correct. 2 3 Q. -- on a regular basis? Do you have any 2 4 recollection of seal deaths on the English coast 2 5 being a cause for increased publicity about PCBs in 9 Stevenson !3t., Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 PAY Al R-P1 0-1 OA1 12 5 ^-Oigitat-OriverSuite-ONovato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027935 the environment? A. I don't recall it. 3 MR. PREUSS: Let me object late to the 4 question on the basis that it's argumentative to 5 the extent it assumes that the seal deaths were 6 connected with the PCBs. It's lacking foundation 7 as wel1. 8 MS. GRADY: Q. This is Exhibit 566, 9 which is a three-page document, TRAN 021702 through 10 021704, purports to be a Report of Meeting with 11 Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, 12 Fisheries Laboratory, Burnham-On-Crouch, in London 13 on 27th January, 1970, lists who was present there 14 for the ministry, who was present for Monsanto and 15 then copies to a large group of people, one of 16 which is shown as Mr. Springgate. The report is 17 labeled Company Confidential. 18 Mr. Springgate, do you recognize Exhibit 19 566 as a document you have seen before? 2 0 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 2 1 Exhibit 566 was marked 2 2 for identification.) 23 . THE WITNESS: No, I don't recall seeing 24 it. MS. GRADY: Q. What was the reporting 9 Stevenson St,, Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 inc. FAY AIR-RIO-IOAI 126 42-Qigital-Drlver.Suite-a Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027936 I 1 relationship between Monsanto U.K. and the various 2 business lines in St. Louis? 3 A. If you were -- had a business group 4 responsibility, it was worldwide. So you were 5 responsible for that business in Europe or Japan as 6 well as the United States. 7 Q. And as head of the plasticizers business, 8 did you have a business group responsibility? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did you receive reports on a regular 11 basis from employees of Monsanto U.K. that related 12 to plasticizers' issues? 13 A. Yes, I did. 14 Q. And did those reports take the form that 15 you see in Exhibit 566? . 16 A. Yes, it could. 17 Q. This is a form that you recognize? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Page 2 of this document, item 2, could 20 you read that, please? By the way, if anything I 2 1 direct your attention to you don't think is enough 22 information for you to figure out, feel free to 2 3 read more of the document. 24 A. I have read that. ` 25 Q. Did you provide, or did any of your staff 3t.,IQ-Q+ovrenenn-* Suite 400 sail i i ai viuvUi CA 94105 H 5-51 2-1234 FAY A1K-R19-19A1 127 42-Digital-Drive^Suite^a Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMONOQ27937 1 at your direction provide, to the fisheries and 2 food ministries in England information about the 3 proportions of Aroclor 1242 that were shipped into 4 England? 5 A. I don't recall. 6 Q. This says, "It is invariably the higher 7 chlorinated compounds (5 and 6 chlorines) that are 8 found and they," referring to the ministry people, 9 "therefore assume, incorrectly, that these are the 10 commercial grades most widely used." 11 Was there any reason that you recall not 12 to provide information to the food and fisheries 13 ministries in England concerning what commercial 14 grades of Aroclors were most widely used? 15 MR. PREUSS: Well, I am going to object 16 as assuming facts not in evidence and 17 argumentative. 18 MS. GRADY: Q. Just any reason you 19 recall being discussed, Mr. Springgate. 2 0 A. I don't recall that subject at all. 2 1 Q. Okay. Item 6 on page 3 of this document, 2 2 which down at the bottom is 21704, it's the two 2 3 paragraphs there next to item 6 that I would like you to read. A. Uh-huh. St., Suite 400 3, CA 94105 H 5-512-1234 inc: PAY A1R-R19-19A1 128 42 Digital Drive. Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027938 1 Q. Was there a time when Monsanto was 2 holding -- withholding from public dissemination 3 the information that carbonless carbon paper was 4 made with PCBs? 5 MR. PREUSS: Object as argumentative, 6 assuming facts not in evidence. 7 THE WITNESS: I don't recall that being 8 true, no. 9 MS. GRADY: Q. Does -- this statement, 10 "We were questioned closely about the quantities of 11 PCB used in the U.K. and the major industrial 12 applications. Our response was limited to the 13 applications given in the authorized press 14 statement, i.e., those uses or proposed uses that 15 are given in the literature. No mention was made 16 of NCR, but it will become increasingly difficult 17 to maintain this position. Indeed, continuing to 18 do so might only highlight the NCR paper 19 application when it becomes, as it must, more 2 0 widely known," does that refresh your recollection 2 1 in any way about Monsanto -- Monsanto's position 2 2 concerning the Aroclor content of carbonless carbon 2 3 paper? 24 A. I don't remember any portion of that. 25 Q. Did you have any discussions with NCR 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 H 5-512-1234 o inc: r-K vy a a r? r~ a r\ 129 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027939 1 that they didn't want the world to know that 2 carbonless carbon paper had PCBs in it? 3 A. Not that I recall. 4 Q. Did you have any discussion with your 5 marketing people that it wouldn't do marketing any 6 good to disclose that carbonless carbon paper had 7 PCBs in it? 8 A. Not that I recall. 9 Q. How were all of the plasticizers' 10 customers notified of the presence of PCBs in their 11 products ? 12 A. I don't recall specifically, but the 13 only -- I don't recall specifically, period. 14 Q. What's your general recollection? 15 A. My general recollection would be that we 16 had such a broad customer base, we would have had 17 to have done that by memo of some type. 18 Q. Is that -- have you told me everything 19 you recall about the notification of PCB content to 2 0 the customers of plasticizers? 2 1 A. That's it. 2 2 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 2 3 Exhibit 568 was marked 2 4 for identification.) 25 MS. GRADY: Q. Let me show you Exhibit i St., Suite 400 3, CA 94105 he -512-1234 PAY /HS.C10.1041 13 0 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 .. HARTOLDMON0027940 ..ft 1 568, which for the record purports to be a two-page 2 letter bearing Bates TRAN 003226 through 27, dated 3 February 18th, 1970 on Monsanto letterhead, signed 4 by Donald A. Olson. 5 Mr. Springgate, have you ever seen 6 Exhibit 568 before? 7 A. I don't recall it. 8 Q. Does this refresh your recollection about 9 any letter that was sent out to plasticizer 10 customers concerning the presence of PCB in certain 11 Monsanto products? 12 A. Not specifically. I remember informing 13 customers somehow by memo. That's about all I 14 remember. 15 Q. So you can't tell me sitting here today 16 whether this was the letter sent to the plasticizer 17 customers or not? 18 MR. PREUSS: This specific one? It says, 19 "functional fluids group." 2 0 MS. GRADY: Right. 2 1 THE WITNESS: He was the functional 2 2 fluids director of sales. So this letter probably 2 3 didn't go to the plasticizer customers. 24 MS. GRADY: Q. Do you recall 25 coordinating the notification of plasticizer 9 Stevenson St.. Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 H 5-512-1234 CSV /M K.K1 0.1 OA1 13 1 42-Biiita1-DriverSuite-9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMONOQ27941 i 1 customers with the notification of functional 2 fluids customers? 3 A. I don't recall that, no. 4 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 5 Exhibit 572 was marked 6 for identification.) 7 MS. GRADY: Q. Exhibit 572 purports to 8 be a one-page memorandum to Mr. Papageorge, signed 9 by R. Emmet Kelly, Bates number TRAN 008374, dated 10 March 30th, 1970, with a list of CCs where 11 Mr. Springgate's name appears. 12 Would you look at this and tell me if you 13 have seen this document before, please? 14 A. I don't remember this document. 15 Q. Down in it last paragraph there it 16 states, "This brings us to a very serious point." 17 There's a preceding paragraph about contamination, 18 alleged contamination, of silage in Ohio. "When 19 are we going to tell our customers not to use any 2 0 Aroclor in any paint formulation that contacts 2 1 food, feed, or water for animals or humans? I 2 2 think it is very important that this be done." 2 3 Does this refresh your recollection about 2 4 any follow-up efforts you engaged in or you advised 25 your ..... or directed your staff to engage in about 9 Stevens St., Suite 400 San Franci: CA 94105 15-512-1234 CAV /HC CIO 4 n A-i 13 2 42_Bigital-0riverSuite-9Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027942 1 finding out if paints -- excuse me -- if paints 2 still contained -- were being made with Aroclors? 3 A. I have a vague recollection of the 4 painted silos that supposedly some PCB was picked 5 up. Your next question, did this lead to -- your 6 question was what? 7 Q. Do you recall conducting any follow-up 8 work, either yourself or directing your staff to do 9 so, to find out if paint was still being formulated 10 with Aroclors? 11 A. I think in an earlier memo you were 12 showing me I asked our marketing department to do 13 that, yes. 14 Q. Do you recall anything subsequent to that 15 request? 16 A. I don't recall the answer to that. 17 Q. All right. The next exhibit is 574. 18 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 19 Exhibit 574 was marked 20 for identification.) 2 1 MS. GRADY: Q. This purports to be a 22 multi-paged document with Bates numbers STR CC1530 2 3 through STR CC15 -- and then the last two digits 24 are cut off, but it looks to me like they are 25 contiguous pages, in which case the last number St., Suite 400 ), CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 13 3 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027943 l 1 would be 1539. it is a memorandum from 2 Mr. Papageorge dated April 7th, 1970 to a list of 3 people including Mr. Bergen and Mr. Springgate. 4 And it's the usual question, 5 Mr. Springgate, whether you recall seeing this 6 document prior to today? 7 A. I don't recall this specific document. 8 Q. Do you recall documents like this one? 9 A . Yes, Ido. 10 Q. Did Mr. Papageorge present 11 recommendation -- strike that. 12 After the time where Mr. Papageorge 13 was -- became head of the PCB monitoring 14 activities, was it he that made the presentations 15 to what has apparently now been renamed the CMC? 16 A. I don't recall. I don't recall. He may 17 have, but others may have also. 18 Q. Do you recall Mr. Papageorge running his 19 recommendations by you and others prior to 2 0 presenting them to the CMC? 2 1 A . Yes, Ido. 2 2 Q. And was that for purposes of getting your 2 3 sign-of f? 24 A. Yes, I think that is true. 2 5 Q. It was your understanding that if you had 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 an Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 I n> C me: CAV /HC.C^O.IO/H 13 4 4-243iiital-DflverSutte-9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027944 1 a strong disagreement with one of the 2 recommendations, that it wouldn't be made or it 3 would be modified in some way? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. Okay. Could I get you to turn to what's 6 labeled at the top "Page 2," under item Roman 7 numeral III, "Objectives," where it states, "The 8 overall objective of this plan is to manage the PCB 9 pollution problem to prevent it from adversely 1 0 affecting the established Return-on-Investment 11 objectives of the Functional Fluids and 12 Plasticizers Group, while maintaining the corporate 13 image of Monsanto as a responsible and respected 14 member of industry worldwide," and then get you to 15 read the objectives that are listed by number under 16 that? 17 A. Uh-huh. 18 Q. Do you recall making a recommendation to 19 a Monsanto client that they should give an Aroclor 2 0 based product to a non-Monsanto product? 2 1 MR. PREUSS: At any time? 2 2 MS. GRADY: Q. At any time. At any time 2 3 while you were head of plasticizers. 24 A. I am sorry. Give an Aroclor product -2 5 Q. -- to a non-Monsanto product. i9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 >an Francisco, CA 94105 4 5-512-1234 13 5 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027945 . .ft f 1 A. Yes , Ido. 2 Q. What was that? 3 A. I remember -- I remember decisions with 4 NCR on switching to some other product. And they 5 had a better idea of what the field was than we 6 did. And I remember some person came in. He was a 7 manufacturer of some kind of a lamp that used 8 Aroclor. And we told him we didn't have any 9 substitute product for him and we kind of guessed 10 with him on something else that could be used. So 11 the answer to the question broadly is yes. 12 Q. And what was the nature of the 13 discussions with NCR about a replacement for 14 Aroclors in carbonless carbon paper? 15 A. They needed a replacement for their 16 carbonless carbon paper. So we discussed with them 17 what the characteristics were of the product that 18 they needed and we discussed things that were 19 either made by Monsanto or made by other people. 2 0 Q. Do you recall any instances other than 2 1 NCR and this maker of this lamp that used Aroclors? 22 A. Not off the top of my head. 2 3 Q. And what was -- was NCR the largest 24 customers in the plasticizers group? 25 A. No. They were the largest customer for 9 Stevenson St., Suite 40h ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 inc: 13 6 - 42'OigitalDriverSuite'9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027946 1 Aroclor, but not the largest customer we had in the 2 group, no. 3 Q. Could you look at page 5 where it says, 4 "Action - Develop acceptable substitutes and 5 selectivity phase-out of the Aroclor containing 6 industrial fluids"? The response listed is not 7 yours. It's the functional fluids group. And then 8 it has a series of dates. 9 Do you recall any discussion about 10 phasing out of Aroclor use as development of 11 acceptable substitutes went forward? 12 MR. PREUSS: Excuse me. Objection to the 13 form. Are you talking about industrial fluids now, 14 all products, plasticizers or what? 15 MS. GRADY: I guess I am talking about 16 all products containing Aroclors. 17 THE WITNESS: Well, I remember many 18 discussions of substitutes for the plasticizers 19 that contained Aroclor. I really didn't 2 0 participate in discussion of the functional fluids 2 1 with Aroclor. 22 MS. GRADY: Q. Page 8, item 7 , Objective 2 3 Determine," excuse me, "effects of PCBs on birds, 24 aquatic life, animals and humans." 2 5 Could you read that, "Status, action," 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 l_ _ A* CQ me: 13 7 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027947 I 1 et cetera? 2 A. Yes, I read that. 3 Q. Did you participate in any discussions 4 concerning the results of toxicological studies 5 being conducted on Aroclors? 6 A. I remember some discussions of it, yes. 7 Q. What do you recall? 8 A. Very little. I remember meeting with 9 those people, with the Monsanto medical people, but 10 that's about all I remember. 11 Q. Do you recall anything about effects on 12 liver enlargements or reproduction of rats? 13 A. No, I don't. 14 Q. The last page is headed "COSTS. Costs 15 for the program for 1970 have been budgeted as 16 follows:" And then it has a chart that shows it 17 with the bottom number being $675 with that M next 18 to it again without a line over it. 19 Does either your experience at Monsanto 2 0 or your work in the plasticizers group at the time 2 1 this document was created allow you to tell me if 2 2 that $675,000 that was devoted to -- that was 2 3 proposed for the budget? 24 A. I don't understand that terminology. 25 Q. Do you remember what the research budget 9 Steven 3CSattr40CX Ian Franci CA 94105 15-512-1234 CA V/MC.CMO lO/M 138 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027948 1 was for -- strike that. 2 Do you remember what the budget was for 3 tasks related to PCB issues at Monsanto when you 4 were head of the plasticizers group? 5 A. No, I don't. 6 Q. Does $675,000 sound reasonable to you? 7 A. Yes, it does. 8 MS. GRADY: Why don't we take a break? 9 (Whereupon, a recess was taken.) 10 MS. GRADY: Q. The next Exhibit is 575. 11 It purports to be a three-page document, Bates TRAN 12 005549 through 51, from St. Louis - General Offices 13 dated April 9th, 1970, subject PCB's Management 14 Plan, to Mr. Papageorge, with Mr. Springgate shown 15 as a CC. 16 Do you recall seeing Exhibit 575 prior to 17 today? 18 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 19 Exhibit 575 was marked 2 0 for identification.) 2 1 THE WITNESS: I don't recall it. No, I 2 2 don't. 2 3 MS. GRADY: Q. Who is John Mason? 24 A. He was a member' of Monsanto management 25 within the same operating unit as were Howard 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 Ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 139 42 Digital Drive. Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027949 i Bergen and was I. Q. chart? He was up above you on the organizational 4 A. I think so. At various times we were 5 peers and one time he was up above me depending on 6 the point in time. 7 Q. Okay. Could you read the first 8 paragraph, please? 9 A. Yes, I have read that. 10 Q. Do you recall discussing with 11 Mr. Papageorge making an affirmative presentation 12 to the CMC such as to make sure that the business 1 3 division's best interests were represented? 14 A. I don't recall that specifically. 15 Q. Do you have a general recollection? 1 6 A. No . 17 Q. Could you read item 1 on the first page 18 of this exhibit, "Open the review by referring to 19 the previous presentation to the CMC highlighting 2 0 particularly their direction that we should prepare 2 1 a plan to discontinue the manufacture of 1254 and 2 2 1260"? 2 3 Do you recall a time when the CMC had 2 4 recommended that a program be developed to discontinue all sales of 1254 and 1260 and that the 943tevenson-StrSuite-400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 PAY 9-1 9A1 14 0 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027950 1 division was recommending that certain sales be 2 continued? 3 MR. PREUSS: Well, if that purports to be 4 a characterization of paragraph 1, I would object. 5 It's a mischaracterization. 6 MS. GRADY: It doesn't. I am not 7 purporting to summarize what it's saying here. 8 This is just a question. 9 MR. PREUSS: Okay. 10 THE WITNESS: I don't remember this 11 specific issue, period. I do remember a prior memo 12 we looked at and I can read what it says here, but 13 I don't remember the subject. 14 MS. GRADY: Q. Okay. Could you look at 15 item 10? Oops, sorry. I need you to look at the 16 top of page 2, item G, and then item 10. 17 A. Uh-huh. I have read it. 18 Q. Does anything that you have just read 19 refresh your recollection of a -- of a division 2 0 recommending that the CMC modify a directive to 2 1 discontinue the sale of 1254 and 1260? 2 2 A. I don't remember these specific points. 2 3 I just don't. 24 Q. Do you have a general recollection of the 2 5 division recommending to CMC that 1254 and 1260 not 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 CQ1 --At me: 14 1 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027951 1 be terminated? 2 A. I just don't remember that, no. 3 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 4 Exhibit 578 was marked 5 for identification.) 6 MS. GRADY: Q. The next exhibit is 578, 7 which purports to be minutes of the meeting of the 8 Corporate Management Committee April 20th, 1970. 9 It's a two-page document bearing Bates range BIR 10 002086 through 87. 11 And I would ask you to look at this, 12 Mr. Springgate, so you can answer the question 13 whether you have seen Exhibit 578 before? 14 A. I don't remember seeing it. No, I don't. 15 Q. Do you recall seeing minutes of the 1 6 Corporate Management Committee in this form before? 17 A. Yes, I do. 18 Q. And this was how the decisions of the 19 Corporate Management Committee were typically 2 0 presented to you; is that correct? 2 1 A. That's right. 2 2 Q. On the second page of this document under 2 3 "Conclusions" it states that "The committee felt 24 that while the division has taken major steps to 25 resolve this problem, more affirmative action must 19 Stevenson St., Suite 400 >an Francisco, CA 94105 H 5-512-1234 *3% 142 42"Dtgitaf'0riverSaite-9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027952 1 be taken. A replacement product should be 2 developed on a crash basis for the NCR 3 application." 4 Does that refresh your recollection about 5 a Corporate Management Committee meeting involving 6 the PCB issue? 7 A. No. The answer is no, it doesn't. I 8 remember developing a replacement product for the 9 NCR application, but I don't remember the CMC's 10 involvement in that subject. 11 Q. In other words, you don't remember being 12 directed -13 A . No, I don't. 14 Q. - - to do that? 15 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 16 Exhibit 579 was marked 17 for identification.) 18 MS. GRADY: Q. Exhibit 579, which is a 19 four-page document bearing two sets of Bates 2 0 numbers, one is PRR 022792 through '795 and the 2 1 other is SCM 038534 through 38537. It purports to 2 2 be a memorandum from Keller dated April 17th, 1970, 2 3 subject Environment Materials Analyzed by Monsanto 24 for PCBs, to W.P. Papageorge, Personal and 2 5 Confidential, list of CCs with Mr. Springgate among 9^steWis6rstrsurtr4oo- an Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 i--a \/ a * rr c 4 r\ a r\ a 4 143 42"Bigita1-6rivrSuite"9Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027953 1 them. 2 Do you recall seeing Exhibit 579 prior to 3 today? 4 A. No, I don't recall it. 5 Q. Do you recognize the form of 579 as one 6 with which you are familiar in your work at 7 Monsanto? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And is this a form in which you received 10 information concerning the PCB issue? 11 A . Yes, it is. 12 Q. The next exhibit is 581. 581 is Bates 13 numbered 300 2628, and it's from Papageorge, dated 14 April 28th, 1970, to G. Robert Sido, with a list of 15 CCs including Mr. Springgate. 16 I would ask you to read this entire 17 memorandum, please. 18 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 19 Exhibit 581 was marked 2 0 for identification.) 2 1 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh. All right. 2 2 MS. GRADY: Q. Have you seen Exhibit 581 2 3 prior to today? 24 A. I don't think s.o. 25 Q. Is this one of the documents that was 9-SteveRSon St;rSuite-4QQ San Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 inc: FAX 415-512-1241 144 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027954 -_.fi 1 shown to you in preparation for the deposition? 2 A. Not that I recall. 3 Q. Who was G. Robert Sido? 4 A. I believe he was a man who developed 5 labels. He worked on labels. 6 Q. Where was he located? 7 A. Somewhere in the Crevecoeur complex, but 8 I don't know where. 9 Q. Does this refresh your recollection as to 10 any discussions you had in the spring of 1970 11 concerning relabeling of products containing 12 Aroclors? 13 A. No, it doesn't. I don't remember that. 14 Q. Do you recall -- does this text look 15 familiar to you? 16 A. I would say, yes, it does. 17 Q. Is this the text that appeared on Aroclor 18 or plasticizer products that contained Aroclor 19 after some period of time? 2 0 A. I don't know. I don't recall. 2 1 Q. That's not your handwriting down at the 2 2 bottom, is it? 23 A. No, it isn't. 24 Q. Do you recognize that handwriting? 2 5 A. No, I don't. 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 r~A V/ AAC C H n 4 n A 4 145 "--4iH3igitaH9riverSuite-9"---- Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027955 I 1 Q. The next exhibit is 584. That's not it. 2 I am sorry. The next exhibit is 583, which is 3 here . 4 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 5 Exhibit 583 was marked 6 for identification.) 7 MS. GRADY: Q. For some reason I only 8 have two copies of that one. Sorry. Exhibit 583 9 purports to be -- or is a two-page document, Bates 10 numbered Tran 085279 through 80, from St. Louis 11 General Offices, dated April 28th, 1970, subject 12 Aroclor, to Schalk, Waychoff, Paton, with a list of 13 CCs, which does not include Mr. Springgate. 14 Could I get you to read the first - 15 let's say down through item 3 on the first page of 16 Exhibit 538 -- 583? Sorry. 17 A. Uh-huh. 18 Q. Mr. Springgate, it's late in the day and 19 I have just turned to the second page of this 2 0 document and discovered why I put it in here which 2 1 is that it appears that you signed it. 2 2 Is that your signature? 2 3 A. I would believe it is, yes. 24 Q. And do you recall seeing Exhibit 583 2 5 prior to today? strsuttr^oh CA 94105 15-512-1234 aantes ine: f A V/ A A C CAn AnAA 14 6 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027956 i 1 A. No, I don't. 2 Q. But you have no reason to believe that 3 you didn't draft this? 4 A . No . 5 Q. Item No. 2, "Assume we will discontinue 6 sales of PCBs on August 31st, 1970," do you recall 7 what that was about? This assumes that product 8 sales would stop as of August 31st, 1970? 9 A. Well, we were going to discontinue the 10 products that we thought were the biggest 11 contributors to the environmental contamination. 12 As I say, the body of the sciences is increasing 13 and changing, but at this point in time we thought 14 we were going to discontinue these. And that's 15 apparently what this memo says and we should be 16 informing people that we were going to do that. 17 Q. When this memo says -- it lists among the 18 products that are under item 2, "Assume we will 19 discontinue sales of PCBs on August 31st, 1970," 2 0 A-1242. 2 1 Does that mean A-1242 sold as Aroclor and 2 2 sold as Santicizer, for example? 2 3 A. Well, if I was doing it, it would be that 2 4 sold as a plasticizer. It is Aroclor 1242. I only 25 spoke for the plasticizer sales, but that's what 9-Stevenson"St:r8atte-4O0 San Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 i A> ine: FAY /II F-F1 9-1 941 147 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027957 1 that says. 2 Q. Do you recall an effort being made in the 3 spring of 1970 to notify all of the plasticizer 4 customers that Aroclor -- the Aroclors listed here 5 would not be available to them after August 31st, 6 1970? 7 A. I remember notifying customers that we 8 were discontinuing the products. I don't remember 9 the specific timing. 10 Q. Why did you -- why did you recommend that 11 the assumption be made that these listed Aroclors 12 would be discontinued as of August 31st, 1970? 13 A. Why did we assume that in this memo? 14 Q. Right. 15 . A. I don't recall, but the logical 16 assumption was that was the recommendation about to 17 be made to the Corporate Management Committee. 18 Q. Were sales of 1242 discontinued as of 19 August 31st, 1970? 2 0 A. They were discontinued, but I don't 2 1 remember the date. 2 2 Q. Were sales of the Aroclors that were sold 2 3 by the plasticizer group discontinued prior to - 24 strike that. 2 5 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's ; St., Suite 400 ), CA 94105 15-512-1234 PAV A1P-P19-19A1 148 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMONOQ27958 1 586 was marked 2 for identification.) 3 MS. GRADY: Q. All right. The next 4 exhibit is 586, which is a multi-paged document 5 bearing Bates numbers TRAN 085281 through 085304. 6 The cover memo is from St. Louis - General Offices, 7 dated May 11th, 1970, to Mr. Bergen and 8 Mr. Springgate, CC to Mr. Papageorge, from John 9 Mason. 10 And I would ask you if you have seen 586 11 before? 12 A. I don't remember it. I don't remember. 13 Q. Did John Mason represent the two business 14 lines, the functional fluids business line and the 15 plasticizer business line at CMC meetings? 16 A. For purposes of the PCB subject, he did. 17 Q. Why was that? 18 A. My recollection is that he represented 19 the division which at the time was the organic 2 0 division. This was a special assignment given to 2 1 him by the general manager of the organic division 2 2 which was to coordinate all efforts on the PCB 2 3 program which is not only Papageorge, but also any 2 4 governmental efforts we had going for contacts in 2 5 Washington, D.C. So he was assisting the 9 Stevenson St.. Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 CQ 149 42"Digital"DriverSaite-t Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMONOQ27959 1 Papageorge program, as well as I remember, but he 2 was actually even a higher level than Papageorge, 3 my recollection. 4 Q. Is it your recollection that 5 Mr. Papageorge was not coordinating any efforts 6 that were going on with regulators or legislators? 7 A. Yes, that's my recollection. Mason was 8 doing that. 9 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 10 Exhibit 587 was marked 11 for identification.) 12 MS. GRADY: Q. Exhibit 587, I ask you to 13 take look at that. I will describe it for the 14 record as a three-page document bearing Bates 15 numbers TRAN 085321 through 323, from Papageorge, 16 dated May 27th, 1970, subject PCB Environmental 17 Problem, to J.R. Durland, Tokyo, CC Mr. Bergen, 18 Mr. Dana and Mr. Springgate. 19 A. Uh-huh. I have read this. 2 0 Q. Have you seen Exhibit 587 prior to today? 2 1 A. Not that I recall. 2 2 Q. Is that your handwriting up in the 2 3 right-hand corner? 2 4 A. I don't think it is, no. 2 5 Q. Do you recognize the form of that 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 >an Francisco, CA 94105 -15-512-1234 CQ me. 150 ^42^tgita113riverSaite^" Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027960 document - A . Yes. 3 Q. -- as one that you used in the normal 4 course of your duties? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Do you recall that -- do you recall 7 whether a determination was made that the Aroclors 8 sold by the plasticizer group were not 9 biodegradable? 10 MR. PREUSS: Let me just object here. At 11 what point in time are we talking about? 12 MS. GRADY: At any point in time. 13 MR. PREUSS: In all plasticizers? 14 MS. GRADY: Yeah, any Aroclors in any 15 plasticizers at any point in time. 16 MR. PREUSS: Okay. 17 MS. GRADY: Q. Do you recall a 18 determination being made that they were not 19 biodegradable? 2 0 A. No, I don't. I remember some discussion 2 1 about biodegradability, but I don't remember which 2 2 ones were and which ones were not. 2 3 Q. And you don't remember a determination 24 being made that any of them were not biodegradable? 2 5 A. I don't remember the conclusion of the 9"SteveF\sn-S{rrSuite 400 an Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 151 42. Digital Drive.. Suite. 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMONOQ27961 1 biodegradation subject. 2 Q. Okay. Do you recall at any time prior to 3 when the Aroclor 1242 used in carbonless carbon 4 paper was withdrawn from sale that a determination 5 was made that that form of Aroclor was not 6 biodegradable? 7 A. I don't remember the conclusions of the 8 biodegradability subject. 9 Q. Okay. The next is Exhibit 588. 10 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 11 Exhibit 588 was marked 12 for identification.) 13 MS. GRADY: Q. For the record, it is a 14 two-page record with Bates numbers STR C05152 15 through 5153 from Papageorge dated May 27th, 1970, 1 6 subject PCB Environmental Problem, May Summary, to 17 Mr. Bergen and Mr. Springgate. 18 Mr. Springgate, do you recall or have you 19 seen Exhibit 588 prior to today? 20 A. I don't think so, no. 2 1 Q. Was this one of the documents shown to 22 you in the preparation for your deposition? 2 3 A. I don't recall. 2 4 Q. Did Mr. Papageorge after some point in 25 time start presenting you and Mr. Bergen with iv-r-''rvr-'zrr--`rv-r-f.irzf'-t-r San Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 (--A \/ 4 C C4 r\ 4 n A 4 152 4-2-0iital-DriverSuite"9-^Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027962 -_.fi 1 monthly records? 2 A. Yes, he did. 3 Q. And is Exhibit 588 an example of one of 4 those monthly reports? 5 A. I believe it is. 6 Q. And you used this in carrying out your 7 duties and responsibilities in your work - 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. -- as head of plasticizers? 10 A. Yes, we did. 11 MS. GRADY: The next exhibit is Exhibit 12 594 . 13 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 14 Exhibit 594 was marked 15 foridentification.) 16 MS. GRADY: Q. Exhibit 594, for the 17 record, is a one-page document, TRAN 061665, from 18 Papageorge, dated July 28th, 1970, to John Mason, 19 with a list of CCs including Mr. Springgate. 2 0 Mr. Springgate, have you seen Exhibit 594 2 1 prior to today? 2 2 A. No, not that I recall. 2 3 Q. Do you recognize the form of 594 as one 24 used by Monsanto? 2 5 A. Yes. 9 Stevenson St.. Suite 400" San Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 r"A V A A E CH n HOiH 153 42-Bigita(-BriverSuite-9Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027963 ( 1 Q. And you had -- you have received 2 information in this particular form in your work as 3 head of the plasticizers group? 4 A. Yes, that's true. 5 Q. Okay. Could you read this memorandum, 6 please? 7 A. Uh-huh. I have read it. 8 Q. Earlier today we discussed the fisheries 9 and food ministries in the United Kingdom and an 10 incident involving meeting with Monsanto 11 representatives and them. And you indicated that 1 2 you did not recall having a policy of -- strike 1 3 that. It's hopelessly complex. 14 Let me just ask it to you this way. Do 15 you recall Monsanto keeping the Aroclor content of 16 NCR carbonless carbon paper a secret? 17 A. I don't recall that one way or the other. 18 It is, however, very common industry practice not 19 to tell the world what your specific customers buy 2 0 from you. Some companies -- most companies object, 2 1 some vehemently. A very large company like IBM 2 2 would not allow anyone to disclose what was sold to 23 them. In regard to NCR, I don't remember the 24 details of that case. . 25 Q. Do you know what Monsanto's policy was 3t., Suite 400 ...... ............ CA 94105 15-512-1234 PAV A 1Fi-Fi19-1941 154 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027964 with regards to disclosing - A. Not to disclose a customer use if the 3 customer had an objection. 4 Q. And that -- did that include not 5 disclosing the presence of PCBs to government 6 agencies if the customer objected? 7 A. I think government agencies are in a 8 different category. I think we made the data 9 available to the government agencies routinely. 10 Q. Do you have any contact with the WARF 11 Project, the Wisconsin Alumni Research Foundation? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Okay. The next exhibit is Exhibit 595, 14 which is a multi-paged memorandum with Bates 15 numbers TRAN 039104 through 039111, from 16 Papageorge, dated August 18th, 1970, subject PCB 17 Environmental Problem, July status report to a long 18 list of people, none of which includes 19 Mr. Springgate, but the CC list does. 20 Do you recall seeing Exhibit 595 prior to 2 1 today? 22 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 2 3 Exhibit 595 was marked 24 for identification.) THE WITNESS: No, I don't. 3ttrStiite"400 CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAy A1.e;-.e;i9-19A1 155 42~DjgitaLDrivr*Sufe^ Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027965 1 MS. GRADY: Q. Could I ask you to look 2 at page 4? Under "Research, Aroclor 1242 3 Replacement for NCP," can you tell me if that's a 4 typo? Is that supposed to be NCO? 5 A. I think the Xerox failed to pick up the 6 bottom of that. R. 7 Q. Okay. This discusses various results of 8 tests that are run on MIPB and I would like to ask 9 you if -- if Monsanto performed special research 10 for replacement products for certain customers? 11 A. I would say yes, we provided special 12 research for many customers. 13 Q. At the time you were there, did you 14 provide special research for all customers in terms 15 of replacement products for Aroclors? . 16 A. As broad a customer list as you could 17 hope to cover. Again, in an economic benefit 18 versus research cost, I doubt that we spent any 19 time and energy on that paint for the highway we 2 0 discussed earlier. When we had problems like a 2 1 replacement for NCR or any work that was being done 22 in the functional fluid area -- so you have a 2 3 priority list of which is most important and which 2 4 is least important and you probably never.get to 2 5 those that are the least important. rg^sievWTsorstrSnlte^TOO^ San Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 CO, mcr CA V HHC.CHO HO/H 156 4-2-0iitel-OrwerSuite"9Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027966 1 Q. And what's the definition in that answer 2 of "most important" and "least important"? 3 A. What's most important is probably most 4 important from a business standpoint -- point of 5 view. Can you continue the business and can you 6 satisfy the customer? And from Monsanto's point of 7 view, you have big customers, you have multiple 8 products that you are marketing to them, large 9 customers. So you want to keep that large customer 10 happy and you are more inclined to do a large 11 amount of work. Again, the opposite extreme is a 12 paint manufacturer who doesn't buy much and it's 13 easy for him to buy an alternate product. So you 14 would probably do very little on that application. 15 Q. Were there certain customers in the - 16 that were -- strike that. 17 Were there certain plasticizer customers 18 that you notified of the withdrawal of Aroclor in 19 time to do special research projects to find a 2 0 substitute? 2 1 A. I honestly don't recall. I just don't 2 2 recall, okay, which is bad wording. There is not a 2 3 dishonest -- I don't recall. 2 4 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 25 - 597 was marked F-Stevenson"St"Stiite"4QQ>an Francisco, CA 94105 H5-512-1234 tnc: PAY A1 P-P1 0.1 OA1 157 -_--,,._4-2-Oigita(-Drtve,-Suite-9Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027967 t for identification.) MS. GRADY: Q. Exhibit 597 is the next 3 exhibit, which is a memorandum from Papageorge, 4 dated October 6, 1970, subject PCB Environmental 5 Problem, September Status Report, to a long list of 6 people, CC Mr. Bergen, Mr. Mason and 7 Mr. Springgate. The Bates number is TRAN 0031205 8 through 003116 -- oops, or wrong, 117. 9 Mr. Springgate, have you seen 597 prior 10 to today? 11 A. Not that I recall. 12 Q. Is this another -- do you recognize this 13 to be one of Mr. Papageorge's monthly status 14 reports ? 15 . A. Yes, Ido. 16 Q. Could you read the first paragraph under 17 "GENERAL," please, where it says, "Performance 18 against the PCB plan was reviewed with the CMC on 19 September 14," down through the end of that first 2 0 paragraph? 2 1 A. Yes, I have read that. 2 2 Q. Does this paragraph -- where it states, 2 3 "However, it was emphasized.that we must continue 24 to emphasize to all remaining users of PCB's the 25 importance of preventing escape to the environment 9-Stevenson-Sfcr8oite-40" an Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 -e^jincr FAY 415-519-1941 158 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027968 I 1 and we must ensure that these warnings are fully 2 documented so that they will support the action we 3 have taken in this area should we become involved 4 in legal actions," does that refresh your 5 recollection in any way concerning discussions 6 about labeling? 7 A. Not really, no. 8 Q. Did you have meetings with your marketing 9 people concerning documenting warnings about PCBs? 10 A. Not that I recall. We discussed 11 notification, but I don't recall discussing 12 documenting. 13 Q. How were warnings to customers still 14 using PCBs documented? 15 A. I don't recall. 16 Q. Did the plasticizers marketing people use 17 call reports? 18 A. Yes, they did. 19 Q. And did you review as part of your job 2 0 call reports? 2 1 A. Not normally. The marketing manager 2 2 normally did that. 2 3 Q. Did you ever have reason to review 2 4 documentation of a warning to a particular customer 2 5 about their use of PCB containing products? 9 Stevenson St.. Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 159 "42"D1gita1*DriverSnrte"9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027969 l 1 A. Not that I recall, but that would not 2 normally be my function either. 3 Q. Were customers of the plasticizers group 4 told before the Monsanto product they were buying 5 was reformulated? 6 A. In the -- specifically in the case of 7 Aroclors? 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. I don't recall specifically. As a matter 10 of practice, yes, they certainly were. You would 11 wind up in big trouble if you didn't tell your 12 customer you were reformulating. 13 Q. And, as a matter of practice, at what 14 point in the reformulation process was the customer 15 notified that his product was being reformulated? 16 A. Before you ever shipped it to him. 17 Q. At any point prior to that? 18 A. As a routine practice you probably had 19 discussion while you were working on a 2 0 reformulation. 2 1 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 2 2 Exhibit 598 was marked 2 3 for identification.) 2 4 MS. GRADY: Q. Exhibit 598 is a 25 multi-paged exhibit bearing Bates numbers TRAN 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 CQ1 incr 160 42 Digital Drive. Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027970 1 003094 through 3104, from Papageorge, to a list of 2 people, dated December 7th, 1970, subject PCB 3 Environmental Problem, November Status Report. 4 Mr. Springgate together with Mr. Bergen and 5 Mr. Mason shows ups as a CC. 6 Mr. Springgate, do you recall seeing 7 Exhibit 598 prior to today? 8 A. No, I don't recall. 9 Q. Is this another Papageorge monthly 1 0 report? 11 A. It appears to be, yes. 12 Q. And you recognize the form of it -- 13 A. Yes, Ido. 14 Q. -- to be a Papageorge monthly report? 15 Could I direct your attention to page 7 16 under the heading Pydraul Reformulation, Factory 17 Mutual Visit? What is Factory Mutual? 18 A. It's a fire insurance carrier, I believe. 19 Factory Mutual was the insurance company -- Factory 2 0 Mutual, which the manufacturers belonged, and it's 2 1 kind of a self-insured fire insurance. 2 2 Q. Did the plasticizers group use Factory 2 3 Mutual to certify any of the tests that it 24 performed on products? 2 5 A. I don't recall. 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 CQ 161 ^DrgitarertverSotte^ Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027971 l 1 Q. Could you look on the next page at 2 Turbinol 153A? Do you know what the V105C pump | ij 3 test is? 4 A. No, I don't. 5 Q. Do you know what TAN Krummrich CDP is? 6 A. No. No, I don't. 7 Q. It's called tribal language. If you 8 don't belong to that tribe, you don't know what it 9 is. 10 Maybe you remember whether the use of the 11 word Krummrich in a -- to describe a product 12 designated that the product was made at Krummrich, 13 the Krummrich plant? 14 A. I would have no idea. There were also 15 people named Krummrich. 16 Q. Were any of the plasticizer products 17 reformulated to include chlorinated Turbinols, 18 PCTs? 19 A. I don't recall. I think there were 2 0 always chlorinated terphenyls, were there not? I 2 1 believe. 2 2 Q. I am sorry. I didn't understand you. 2 3 MR. PREUSS: There were always - 2 4 THE WITNESS: Chlorinated terphenyls, 25 that was always one of the products, I think. 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 Jan Francisco, CA 94105 H 5-512-1234 a tnc: CTAV A4CZ C-IO.iO/H 162 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027972 MS. GRADY: Q Oh, I see. Okay. Let me clarify. Were any of the products that formerly 3 included PCBs reformulated to include PCTs? 4 A. I don't know. I don't know. 5 Q. The next exhibit is Exhibit 600. 6 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 7 Exhibit 600 was marked 8 for identification.) 9 MS. GRADY: Q. Exhibit 600 is a 10 multi-paged exhibit bearing Bates TRAN 022427 11 through 436, titled at the top Progress Report, 12 Organic -- Progress Report, Organic Chemicals 13 Division, Technology Department, dated 10/29/71, 14 showing it is -- mine has a hole through it. I 15 think it says presented by -- there is a fellow 16 named Litschgi, L-i-t-s-c-h-g-i, and Dr. Tucker, 17 distribution shown restricted to a list of names 18 and then with details to another list of names 19 which includes Mr. Springgate. 2 0 Mr. Springgate, have you seen Exhibit 600 2 1 before? 22 A. Not that I recall. 2 3 Q. Do you recognize the form of Exhibit 600? 24 A. Yes, Ido. . 25 Q. You have seen documents like it; is that 9-9tevenson-SfcrSutte-400an Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 :ctincr FAY A1F-F19-1 9A1 163 -42-Digitat-Drivr-Suite-9L Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027973 i 1 right? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. What is Exhibit 600? 4 A. It appears to be a progress report from 5 the organic chemicals division technology 6 department. 7 Q. Were these progress reports issued on a 8 regular basis? 9 A. Yes, they were. 1 0 Q. And what was their purpose? 11 A. Their purpose was to inform those on a 12 distribution list the result of their work, their 13 research work. 14 Q. Did the organic chemicals division 15 technology department test materials provided by 1 6 plasticizer customers? And I will direct your 17 attention to what is labeled at the bottom 22430 to 18 see if that helps. 19 A. 22430? 2 0 Q. Uh-huh, Table 1, Customer Service. 2 1 A. Uh-huh. 2 2 MR. PREUSS: Where were you? 2 3 MS. GRADY: Let me restate the question. 24 Q. Did the organics division technology 2 5 department test materials received from JSJevenson SlTSffilB"40tT an Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 1XP2 i* I--A V/ A A t tn a nAa 164 ^-g-Oigital-BriverStiite-SNovato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMONOQ27974 ,,j' 1 plasticizers' customers for Aroclor content? iII 2 A. I don't recall. I just don't recall. 3 Does it say that here somewhere? 4 Q . No . 5 A. I don't recall. 6 Q. Do you recall aprogram where the 7 technology department tested materials provided by 8 functional fluids customers for Aroclor content? 9 A. I don't recall thateither. 10 MS. GRADY: The next document is Exhibit 11 601 . 12 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 13 Exhibit 601 was marked 14 for identification.) 15 MS. GRADY: Q. It's a multi-paged 16 document with Bates numbers TRAN 065404 through 17 417, titled Aroclor Plasticizer Withdrawal Plan. 18 Down in the right-hand corner of the first page it 19 says, "W.S. Clark," with a date 12/7/71. 2 0 Have you seen Exhibit 601 prior to today? 2 1 A. Not that I recall. 2 2 Q. Do you recall there being a document that 2 3 was sent out to various people involved with the 24 final withdrawal of plasticizer products that 25 contained Aroclors? :f-Ste?enson~8trSuite~40 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 CAV A-I C_C-I 0_-l OA 165 42-Bigita1-BriverSwte--9----....... Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027975 s 1 A. Yes, I remember we did that. 2 Q. Did you help draft that document? 3 A. I probably didn't draft it. I probably 4 reviewed it. 5 Q. And did the document need your sign-off 6 prior to being used? 7 A. Yes. I would say it did. 8 Q. Could you look at -- on page 10which is 9 labeled "Dos/Don'ts, Research Work" and review that 10 page, please? 11 A. Uh-huh. Yes, I have read that. 12 Q. Do you recall advice being given to 13 salesmen on what research work Monsanto was willing 14 to provide to plasticizer customers for which 15 Monsanto was discontinuing the Aroclor based 16 product? 17 A. That appears to be what this list is. I 18 don't recall it, but that appears to be the list. 19 Q. Does it comport with any recollection you 20 might have that Monsanto would not do research work 2 1 for customers -- excuse me -- for miscellaneous 22 work requests from salesmen? 2 3 A. We always -- we always had to control 24 which research work we did and which we did not do. 2 5 Every individual salesman thought his customer was St"Saite-460 CA 94105 15-512-1234 PAY AlP-P10-1 OA1 166 43-Disite1-Dv,4Mte-9_ Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMONOQ27976 1 the world's most important. So we always had to 2 control it. Well, apparently in the terms of 3 replacing PCBs in plasticizers, in this specific 4 plasticizer, this appears to be the list of things 5 we would do and the list of things we wouldn't do. 6 That's the extent of my knowledge. 7 Q. Got it. On the next page, do's and 8 don'ts, product group item No. 2, "Visit key 9 accounts as per attached list. Don't do: Don't 10 visit accounts other than those shown on attached 11 key account list." 12 Do you recall establishing a policy that 13 only certain accounts would be visited by Monsanto 14 salesmen in person concerning the withdrawal of 15 certain products that contained Aroclors from the 16 market? 17 A. I don't recall that, but I do recall that 18 earlier some prior exhibit said we had 570 19 customers and there's a limit to how many persons 20 you can cover. 21 MR. PREUSS: So that question was 22 broader, but you were intending him to answer it as 2 3 a group, head of the plasticizer group, correct? 24 MS. GRADY: Yes. 25 THE WITNESS: Well, my comments are all 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 15-51 2-1234 167 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027977 I 1 restricted to the plasticizer group. 2 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 3 Exhibit 602 was marked 4 for identification.) 5 MS. GRADY: Q. Okay. Exhibit 602, which 6 I will describe for the record as a multi-paged 7 document bearing TRAN 085934 through 85942, from 8 W.R. Corey, date December 27th, 1971, subject 9 PCB/PCP Implementation Program, to C.P. Cunningham, 10 with a list of CCs not including Mr. Springgate. 11 Mr. Springgate, do you recall seeing 12 Exhibit 602 prior to today? 13 A. No, I don't. 14 Q. Who is W.R. Corey? 15 A. Winthrop Corey. Wink was the -- 16 Q. Wink Corey? 17 A. Wink, W-i-n-k, was the nickname. 18 Winthrop was his first name and he was probably -- 19 I think he was general manager of functional fluids 2 0 and something else. 2 1 Q. Had functional fluids been split off from 2 2 the plasticizer group as part of a business group? 2 3 A. No. They were always separate business 2 4 groups, but at this point.in time I think Howard 2 5 Bergen reported to Corey and -- where are we? '71, ^Stevensorr-St--Suite-406San Francisco, CA 94105 H 5-512-1234 FAY 168 4.2.DigitaLDrlYe,_auite_9_ Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027978 1 I still had I was reporting to 2 Robson, Cunningham or Bible, but we reported 3 through different chains. But we were still in a 4 section of Monsanto that was Monsanto's industrial 5 chemicals company, I guess they were calling it. 6 Q. Who is C.P. Cunningham? 7 A. He was the managing director of 8 Monsanto's industrial chemicals company. 9 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 10 Exhibit 603 was marked 11 for identification.) 12 MS. GRADY: Q. Exhibit 603 is a 13 multi-paged document, Bates TRAN 085111 through 14 115, with a CC list on the front with 15 Mr. Springgate's name together with Mr. Bergen's 16 and Mr. Papageorge's. The third page of the 17 document is dated 1/28/72. 18 Have you seen Exhibit 608 prior to today, 19 Mr. Springgate? 2 0 A. I don't recall it. 2 1 Q. Do you recall the form of this? 22 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. What is this? What is Exhibit 603 in 24 terms of its form? 2 5 A. This is a internal Monsanto communication 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 Ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 CO inc: 169 42"C)igital"Drtve, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027979 k ----------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --* | I 1 form to send information to multiple receivers at 2 the same time. 3 Q. So this again was some form of Monsanto 4 internal communication? You just said that. 5 A. Right. 6 Q. And in your job as head of plasticizers, 7 did you have reason to receive things that looked 8 like exhibit -- in form like Exhibit 603? 9 A. Correct. 10 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 11 Exhibit 604 was marked 12 for identification.) 13 MS. GRADY: Q. Exhibit 604 is a 14 multi-paged document, Bates numbers TRAN 003025 15 through 3035, from Papageorge, date February 10th, 16 1972, subject PCB/PCT, subject Action Plan, to a 17 long list of names including Mr. Springgate. 18 Do you recognize Exhibit 604 as a 19 document you have seen prior to today? 2 0 A. No, I don't recall it. 2 1 Q. Do you recall that at a certain point 22 during the PCB issue when you had some 2 3 responsibility for PCB issues that a chart was 24 developed to show progress towards'goals?. 2 5 A. Yes. I F9^SteTOnsorrStrSnite"40^ ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 inc: CAV A 1 C-C1 0-1 041 17 0 _42.0igitai-0riv,-Suite-9Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027980 1 Q . Could you look at 3031 2 A. Uh-huh. '/ 3 Q. -- just headed, "Plasticizers"? No. 1, 4 "Generate withdrawal plan," subpoint E or subpoint 5 D, "Notify Plasticizer personnel," and the date is 6 given as 12/20? 7 Do you recall what was done to notify 8 people that worked in the plasticizer division that 9 all products containing Aroclors were being 10 withdrawn? 11 A. I don't recall how that was done. 12 Q. The next entry says, "Notify 13 ex-plasticizer personnel." 14 Do you understand what that refers to? 15 A. No, I don't. 16 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 17 Exhibit 606 was marked 18 for identification.) 19 MS. GRADY: Q. The next document is 606, 2 0 a one-paged document, Bates number TRAN 004048. 2 1 It's labeled a Call Report, salesman Bob Bevacqua, 2 2 B-e-v-a-c-q-u-a, date typed is 7/22/74. 2 3 Have you seen Exhibit 606 prior to today? 2 4 A . No, I haven't. 25 Q. Down on those initials in the bottom it 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 an Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 CTA V A H G CIO -i n A -i 17 1 ^2^-Btgital-BriverBuite-9------- Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027981 I 1 says, "JES." 2 Do you have any reason to believe that's 3 referring to you? 4 A. No, I don't. And I don't think that does 5 refer to me. 6 Q. Why is that? 7 A. I don't recall ever being directly 8 responsible for the functional fluid group of 9 products. 10 Q. So is it accurate to say that you don't 11 think you would have been provided information 12 about Turbinol in 1974? 13 A. No. July of 1974 I was attending 14 Stanford University. I was the general manager of 15 the phosphate and detergents division of Monsanto. 16 I don't think I had anything at all to do with this 17 subject in July of 1974. 18 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 19 Exhibit 612 was marked 2 0 for identification.) 2 1 MS. GRADY: Q. The next exhibit is 2 2 Exhibit 612, a multi-paged document, Bates numbered 2 3 TRAN 086384 through 414. It's a handwritten note 2 4 on top of a group of outlines. 2 5 Do you recognize Exhibit 612? -9~3tevensDir8t:; 8uite 4'0eian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 FAY A1F-F19-19A1 172 ^,2,,DigitaL0rivBT^Suite_9. Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMONOQ27982 1 A . No, I don't. 2 Q. I should mention for the record that on 3 the first page of the exhibit in handwriting it 4 says, "March 1971." I don't know what the date is, 5 but that's what it -- it states. Oh, actually I 6 guess it says - 7 MR. PREUSS: Well, it says that J. Mason 8 is to report to CMC in March '71. 9 MS. GRADY: Right. And I guess at the 10 top of numerous of these pages that follow it says, 11 "3/4/7 1. " 12 Q. Do you recognize the form of any part of 1 3 Exhibit 612 as one you are familiar with in your 14 work at Monsanto? 15 A. Yes, I would say -16 Q. What do you recognize this form to be? 17 A. The buck slip on the front, it says 18 Papageorge's name on it. It is a standard Monsanto 19 buck slip, pass-the-buck type of slip. 2 0 Q. What about the rest of this? Does any of 2 1 this -- any of the materials that follow refresh 2 2 your recollection about a presentation made to the 2 3 CMC in March 1971 concerning PCBs? 2 4 A. I don't really recall the presentation, 2 5 so I don't have a way to give you a firsthand 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 f^ ina FAX 415-512-1241 173 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027983 i 1 response to your question. I just don't, you 2 know -3 Q. How would the process work? Would you 4 and Mr. Bergen meet with Mr. Mason prior to him 5 making his presentation to the CMC? 6 A. Uh-huh. He would -- yes, that would be 7 normal. He would tell us what he was presenting 8 and see if we had any major disagreements with what 9 he was doing. And we talked to him in his -- his 10 office was right next door to our offices and we 11 talked to him frequently. So we generally knew 12 what he was doing. 13 Q. Where would the materials that he -- that 14 he presented, where would they be prepared? In 15 other words, if he was talking about plasticizer 16 products, were those prepared by people that worked 17 for you? 18 A. The data was probably prepared by people 19 who worked for me and he put it into whatever 2 0 format he wanted to use for the presentation, but 2 1 there is data in here. They probably present -- my 22 people would present that to him. 2 3 Q. Okay. The next and last exhibit is 24 Exhibit 613, lucky No. 613, which for the record 25 has a Bates number that's kind of illegible, but it 9 Stevenson St.. Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 i_ `CJ mer FAX 415-512-1241 174 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato. CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027984 1 looks like 61002988. There's also another number 2 under it that's completely illegible. None of 3 these numbers have TRAN. And it purports to be 4 Minutes of Meeting of the Corporate Management 5 Committee, May 11th, 1970. 6 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 7 Exhibit 613 was marked 8 for identification.) 9 THE WITNESS: I have read it. 10 MS. GRADY: Q. Excuse me. Have you seen 11 Exhibit 613 prior to today? 12 A. I don't recall it. 13 Q. Do you recognize the form of 613 as one 14 used by Monsanto? 15 A. Yes, I do. 16 Q. And you used it in your work - 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. -- at Monsanto? 19 That's all the questions I have, 20 Mr. Springgate. Thanks very much. 2 1 MR. PREUSS: I have no questions at this 22 time . 2 3 MS. GRADY: Off the record. 24 (Discussion off the record.) 25 MR. PREUSS: The parties have agreed that 9-SteveneoR-gtyStrite-4QQian Francisco, CA 94105 15-512-1234 CQ in\~. FAX 41 fi-fil 2-1 241 175 4.2-Digital.Orivr-Suite-9. Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027985 1 the original -- that the court reporter may be 2 relieved of her responsibilities under the code and 3 that she can send the original deposition to the 4 witness who will have 30 days to review and make 5 any corrections, at which time I will assume the 6 responsibility of getting the original to 7 Ms. Grady. And if for some reason the original 8 gets misplaced, that I will stipulate that a copy 9 of the deposition may be used as if it were the 10 original at the time of trial or for any other 11 purpose. 12 MS. GRADY: So stipulated. 13 -- o 0 o -- 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9 Stevenson St., Suite 400 ian Francisco, CA 94105 -15-512-1234 FAX 415-512-1241 176 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 ^evatoTCA-^^-" 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027986 1 --o0o-- 2 (Whereupon, the deposition was adjourned 3 at 4:30 p.m.) 4 --0O0-5 I declare under penalty of perjury that 6 the foregoing is true and correct. Subscribed 7 at______;____________, California, this_______day of______________ 8 1992 . 9 10 11 12 Witness signature 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1-9 Stevenson St.. Suite 400 San Francisco, CA 94105 H 5-512-1234 me: FAX 415-512-1241 177 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 Novato, CA 94949 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027987 1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 2 3 I, ROSE KIEHN, a Certified Shorthand 4 Reporter, hereby certify that the witness in the 5 foregoing deposition was by me duly sworn to tell 6 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the 7 truth in the within-entitled cause; 8 That said deposition was taken down in 9 shorthand by me, a disinterested person, at the 10 time and place therein stated, and that the 11 testimony of the said witness was thereafter 12 reduced to typewriting, by computer, under my 13 direction and supervision; 14 I further certify that I am not of 15 counsel or attorney for either or any of the 16 parties to the said deposition, nor in any way 17 interested in the event of this cause, and that I 18 am not related to any of the parties thereto. 19 2 0 ELATED , 1992 21 2 2 ROSE KIEHN, CSR 3268 23 24 25 19 Stevenson St., Suite 400 San Francisco. CA 94105 H5-512-1234 ^ inc. FAX 415-512-1241 178 42 Digital Drive, Suite 9 tlovatcrOA-9494#--- 415-883-1197 HARTOLDMON0027988