Document 3QJxD7G3wvX6EQzeVqj7bVZKO

1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------x IN RE: ASBESTOS PRODUCTS Civil LIABILITY LITIGATION Number (NO. VI) ............................................................................................-..................x This Document Relates to: Action MDL 875 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FIFTH DIVISION, DISTRICT OF MINNESOTA ....................-...........................................-.....................................-- x CONWED CORPORATION, Plaintiff, against- Case Number 5-9-2-88 UNION CARBIDE COMPANY, INC. Corporation), . CHEMICALS AND PLASTICS (f/k/a) Union Carbide Defendant, -and- UNION CARBIDE CHEMICALS AND PLASTICS COMPANY, INC. (f/k/a Union Carbide Corporation), -against- OWENS CORNING FIBERGLAS CORPORATION, et al., WALKER JAMAR COMPANY., A. W. KUETTEL & SONS, INC., API, INC-., and MAC ARTHUR COMPANY, Third-Party Defendants. J ................................-..............................................................................x o October 12, 1994 -- - f ntTATNfK Doyle Reporting, Inc. CERTIFIED STENOTYPE REPORTERS Total Litigation Support WALTER SHAPIRO. CSR CHARLES SHAPIRO. CSR DUPLICATE FILE COPY . 169 LEXINGTON AVENUE NEW YORK. N.Y. 10017 (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018903 mm 2 October 12, 1994 4:20 p.m. Deposition of HARRISON B. RHODES, taken by Plaintiff pursuant to notice, at the law offices of Kelley, Drye & Warren, Esqs., 101 Park Avenue, New York, New York, before Paul Kirschen, . Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public within and for the State of New York. 1 UCAREF00018904 DEPOSITION CLARIFICATIONS Page 59, lines 22 through 25 and Page 60, lines 2 through 7. -The question was "...personally, had any involvement in working for or against the proposed change in the ceiling level in the OSHA standards(Emphasis supplied.) -My answer, Page 60, lines 2 through 5, was intended to refer to the post retirement period. -My response, Page 60, line 7, was simply in error. I meant after 1986. As the resume provided shows, a lot of my time was spent during the 1972 1981 period in AIA/NA activities. The AIA/NA International Reference Method and the AIA/NA Air Monitoring Study were done at that time. These were scientifically sound studies to standardize and define the precision of of the Phase Contrast Air Monitoring Procedure. This had a direct bearing on the ability to measure the several very low proposed TWA levels with any degree of reliability. The ceiling level was never an issue. In essence, although I did not answer the question in the way I intended , the answer l gave was correct. Page 100. lines 24 and 25, and Page 101, lines 2 and 3. -The electron microscope (or scopes) at Niagara Falls were operated by the overall laboratory analytical services group. Undoubtedly Mumpton, Wollery, Chwastiak, and other research personnel had samples analyzed there by electron microscopy. I have no knowledge whether or not any of these were air samples. -They did, however, analyze the artificially generated grinding air samples that were reported in the publication, "Detection of Chrysotile Asbestos in Airborne Dust from Thermosetting Resin Grinding" of which 1 am a co-author. -To the best of my knowledge, and I am quite certain of this, they did not do fiber counting analysis on any samples collected to measure personal exposures to asbestos. My answer was given in this context. UCAREF00018905 Eage p. 2 p. 3 p. 5 p. 12 p. 13 p. 15 p. 16 p. 38 p. 38 p. 57 p. 58 p. 58 p. 72 p. 73 p. 73 SUGGESTED CORRECTIONS TO THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE DEPOSITION OF DR. HARRISON RHODES OCTOBER 12, 1994 Line 6 20 & 22 18 4 2 11 16 12 . 21 17 6 14 19 4-5 10 Correction "4:20 p.m." should be "10:00 a.m." "Union Carbide Corporation" should be "Kelley, Drye & Warren" "Conwed core reports" should be "Conwed call reports" "but that it was not one of the things that was removed" is awkward, probably is not an accurate transcription of the witness's answer, and should be corrected "the delivery of asbestos" should be "Calidria asbestos" "come" should be "count" "that" should be "there" "it was" should be "there was" "In that time" should be "And that time" "accounting laboratory" almost certainly wrong, should be corrected is and "OSHA extrusion level" should be "OSHA excursion level" "extrusion" "excursion" should be "special limit value" should be "threshold limit value" "special limits" "threshold limit" should be "special limits" "threshold limit" should be UCAREF00018906 Page p. 73 p. 76 p. 99 p. 100 p. 100 p. 100 p. 103 p. 105 p. 112 Line 20 9, 19 & 23 20 6 & 17 18 19 6 20 p* 119 p* 122 p* 123 p- 166 p* 169 p* 179 p- 180 p- 181 10 19 17 2 2 25 19 & 23 12 & 13 Correction "special limits" "threshold limit" should be "Durnell" should be "Dernehl" "electromicroscopy" should be "electron microscopy" "electromicroscopy" should be "electron microscopy" "electro" should be "electron" "electromicroscopy" should be "electron microscopy" "weighted in" "greater than" should be "'66" should be "63" "an open part around the mill" is awkward, probably is not an accurate transcription of the witness's testimony, and should be corrected "Structure." seems wrong. This should be corrected "5/2/89" should be "5/2/78" "work of" should be "look at" "dry well" should be "dry wall" "Union carbide" "Union Carbide" should be "electromicroscopy" should be "electron microscopy" "electromicroscopy" should be "electron microscopy" "electromicroscopy" should be "electron microscopy" -2- UCAREF00018907 Page p. 188 Lins 12 & 14 Correction " ShwatzdiaJc" ,,Chwastiak,, should be -3- UCAREF00018908 P e a r a n c e s: 3 KELLEY, DRYE & WARREN, ESQS. Attorneys for Union Carbide Corporation 101 Park Avenue New York, New York 10178 BY: ALAN J. GERSON, ESQ. of Counsel -and- FOLEY & LARDNER, ESQS. 777 East Wisconsin Avenue Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53202 BY: . TREVOR J. WILL, ESQ. of Counsel STICH, ANGELL, KREIDLER & MUTH, P.A. Attorneys for Conwed Corporation 250 2nd Avenue South Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401 BY: ROBERT D. BROWNSON, ESQ. of Counsel Also Present: VIRGINIA M. RUSZCZYK Paralegal Union Carbide Corporation ELBA I. POZO Research Assistant Union Carbide Corporation UCAREF00018909 14 2 HARRISON B. RHODES, having 3 been first- duly sworn by a Notary Public of 4 the State of New York (Paul Kirschen), was 5 examined and testified as follows: 6 EXAMINATION. 7 BY MR. BROWNSON: 8 Q. Dr. Rhodes, as I told you earlier, my 9 name is Bob Brownson, and I am representing the 10 Conwed Corporation, who is a plaintiff in a 11 lawsuit against Union Carbide Corporation. We are 12 here today to take your deposition in connection 13 with that case. 14 I understand you have had your 15 deposition taken before, so I won't bore you with 16 a lot of rules about depositions. But you 17 understand that you are under oath 'here today? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. I would just ask that you answer 20 audibly, out loud. Don't shake your head or 21 mumble, that sort of thing, because the court 22 reporter can't take that down. 23 A. 0.K. 24 Q. And try not to speak when I am 25 speaking, and I will do the same, so each of us DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018910 1 Rhodes 5 2 speaks clearly and one at a time, so the reporter 3 can take this down more easily. 4 Will you do that? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Finally, if any question isunclear 7 to you or if you don't understand the question, 8 please tell me that before you answer the 9 question, so we have a record that reflects 10 answers to questions that you understood. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Dr. Rhodes, before youarrived here 13 this morning for this deposition, did you know 14 anything about this particular lawsuit, the case 15 of Conwed versus Union Carbide? 16 A. I arrived here several days ago and 17 reviewed at my request a variety of items, 18 basically dust counting files, the Conwed core 19 reports, the Conwed dust counting in particular, 20 the section of the deposition that Langer gave on 21 his experiments. 22 Q. The deposition by Dr. Langer in this 23 case? 24 A. In this case. 25 Q . O.K. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. {212)867-8220 UCAREF00018911 1 Rhodes 6 2 A. X also, on my own, did some reading, 3 reviewing the asbestos regulations that applied to 4 the period and the fiber counting, PCM fiber 5 counting procedures, that I thought I might be 6 questioned on and should have refreshed my memory 7 on, on what was involved. 8 Q. You came in a couple of days ago, 9 came to New York in connection with this 10 deposition, and performed this review? 11 A. Yes. 12 A lot of these materials were 20 13 years old. It would take some recollection to 14 remember what you were doing and when. 15 I also reviewed my resume. 16 Q. O.K. Prior to coming to New York for 17 this deposition and performing this review, had 18 you done any work in connection with this case at 19 all? 20 A. No. - 21 Q. Had you ever heard of the case? 22 A. I had never heard of it until Alan 23 called me three or four weeks ago. 24 Q. As I understand, you are currently 25 retired; is that correct? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018912 1 Rhodes 7 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. When did you retire? 4 A. I retired from Union Carbide in 1986 5 and from Versar, Inc., in 1989. 6 Q. In '86, when you retired from Union 7 Carbide, was it Union Carbide Corporation, a 8 company? 9 A. Yes. Metals division. Union Carbide 10 Q. When you retired from the metals 11 division in '86, how old were you at that time? 12 A. 63 . 13 Q. What was your title and position at 14 the company at that time? 15 A. I was manager of occupational health 16 and product safety for the metals division. 17 Q. Just to update ourselves, since that 18 time, from ' 86 to '89, did you work for a 19 different company? 20 A. Versar, Inc. 21 Q. Where was that located? 22 A. Springfield, Virginia. 23 Q. What sort of company is that? 24 A. It is an environmental consulting 25 f irm. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018913 4 1 Rhodes 8 2 Q. And you worked there for three years? *5. A. Yes. 4 Q. Till '89? 5 A. Yes. I worked there, for Versar, for 6 three years, two years in Springfield and one year 7 back in Grand Junction. 8 Q. Colorado? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And then you retired from that? 11 A. In '89, yes. 12 Q. During that three-year period, what 13 sort of work were you doing? 14 A. I was manager of their occupational 15 health department. We were primarily doing 16 asbestos building inspections, abatement design, 17 abatement oversight. 18 Q. Among the other work, Versar did 19 asbestos inspections and abatement design and 20 consulting? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Your role in that particular segment 23 of the work was what? 24 A. I was in charge of the group of six 25 or seven, three CIH groups. We were out -- the DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018914 4 1 Rhodes 9 2 people in my group were out doing asbestos 3 building inspections and the others were designing 4 for outside clients the abatement procedures. And 5 then we would have people on-site doing oversight 6 on the abatement contract. We did not do the 7 abatement ;per se. 8 Q. So Versar, your group, did abatement 9 consulting , design and monitoring? 10 A. Oversight it was generally called, of 11 the abatement contract. 12 Q. When you say "CIH," you mean 13 certified industrial hygienists? 14 A. Yes . 15 I would add I received that after I 16 went to work for Versar, after I left Union 17 Carbide. 18 Q. While you were working for Versar, 19 did you do any air monitoring? 20 A. Yes . 21 Q. Was that during abatement projects, 22 before and after? 23 A. All of the above. 24 Q. Were you involved in any of the 25 decision-making as to whether to abate or remove DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018915 1 Rhodes 10 2 asbestos or any materials from buildings? 3. A. No.. 4 Q. You were involved in the industrial 5 hygiene, and that is doing the air monitoring? 6 A. A client would come to us and ask to 7 have the building inspected. And our people would 8 go out and do the building inspection and provide 9 a report to the client. 10 The client made the decision as to 11 whether they wished to use our services further or 12 whether they wished to abate. 13 Q. Were you involved in building 14 inspections? . 15 A. I had people working for me for 16 building inspections. I was qualified under the 17 EPA regulations, training requirements, to do 18 building inspections, but I did not do them, 19 personally, . 20 Q. And these building inspections, among 21 other things, would determine the presence of 22 asbestos in any building materials in the 23 building? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. In connection with those, did you DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018916 1 Rhodes 11 2 provide any training for these people as to how to 3 identify asbestos in building materials? 4 A. They were -- EPA has required 5 training courses under AHERA you must have 6 satisfactorily completed before you can do 7 building inspections- And I have taken those 8 courses, and people working for me have taken 9 those courses. 10 Q. Are you familiar with what is called 11 EPA purple book? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And the blue book? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And the green book of1991, the 16 second green book? Are you familiar with that 17 one? 18 A. Not familiar with that. After I 19 retired. 20 Q. How about the orange book? ' 21 A. I heard of it. I don'tremember 22 which one it is. 23 Q. O.K. In connection with this work at 24 Versar, do you know if any of the jobs you were 25 involved with concerned abatement or removal of DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018917 # 1 Rhodes 12 2 asbestos in any ceiling tile? 3 A. I c' 'not specifically identify a job 4 but that it was not one of the things that was 5 removed. It was more often sprayed on, on the 6 concrete decking. 7 Q. Were any of these jobs for Union 8 Carbide buildings? 9 A. No . 10 . Q. Now let's go back to when you were 11 working for Union Carbide. 12 You retired in '86, as manager of 13 occupational health and plant safety? 14 A. Product safety. . 15 Q. Product safety. 16 For the metals division? 17 A. Right. 18 Q- How long had you been in that 19 position before '86? 20 A. I transferred in, in 1981, into that 21 position. That was a division staff position. 22 Q. 23 position? From '81 to '86, you were in the same 24 A. Yes . 25 Q. During that time period, '81 to '86, DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 U CARE FOO018918 1 Rhodes 13 2 did your work involve dealing with the delivery of 3 asbestos? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Let me preface this next series of 6 questions, so you see what I am getting at by 7 this . 8 I have had some confusion as to where 9 the asbestos group or the Calidria fit within the 10 structure of Union Carbide over the years. It 11 switches around to different groups. So I am 12 asking questions basically to try to get that 13 corporate relationship straight. I don't want to 14 spend a lot of time on it. 15 Just to kind of go back, from '81 to 16 '86, you were involved with work dealing with the 17 Calidria? 18 A. I am not sure that is a question. 19 Please -repeat. 20 Q. During the '81-86 time period, were 21 you involved with work dealing with the Calidria 22 asbestos group? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And were you involved with work 25 dealing with that group for 'the entire time period DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018919 1 Rhodes 14 2 of '81-86, or just for some part of it? 3 A. I was responsible for formalizing the 4 occupational health program for the entire 5 division. 6 As I recall, I had twelve locations 7 that I was visiting, and preparing a manual, 8 working out their programs, and auditing them 9 periodically to see what they were doing with it. 10 In that structure, I would visit the 11 King City operation, generally audit every other 12 year, and visit periodically in between if there 13 were any problems or questions that needed to be 14 worked out. They took up roughly one-twelfth of 15 my time. 16 Q. O.K. Now, as I understand it, at 17 some point toward the end of your tenure at Union 18 Carbide, Union Carbide actually sold the Calidria 19 operation. 20 Was that while you were still working 21 there or afterward? 22 A. That was about the time I left. A 23 year. About the time I left, the sale was taking 24 place. 25 Q. Did you oversee the Calidria DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018920 1 Rhodes 15 2 operation in terms of what you were doing right up 3 until '86, or did that end in '85 or something? 4 A. I can't recall the exact time frame. 5 Q. Right around the time that you quit? 6 A. Yes . 7 Q. You were responsible for twelve 8 locations. One of them was the King City 9 operation? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did that come as just one location? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. So there is a mine and a mill, but 14 that was all one ofyour twelve? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. O.K. How many of the other eleven 17 locations that you were responsible for used 18 asbestos? 19 MR. GERSON: Objection. Relevancy. 20 But you can go ahead and answer the 21 question if you can. 22 A. The -- 23 . MR. WILL: When you are using 24 "asbestos," are you talking about using 25 asbestos as raw material in the DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018921 1 Rhodes 16 2 manufacturing process or on a clutch facing 3 in a vehicle? 4 MR. BROWNSON: Good point. 5 Q. As I understand, there were eleven 6 other Union Carbide locations that you had this 7 industrial hygiene responsibility for. 8 What I am trying to find out is, in 9 those eleven other locations, did you do work 10 dealing with asbestos, whether it was used as raw 11 material or in some other fashion. 12 A. The only asbestos in these other 13 plants were the ones in the brake facings and 14 insulation and that sort of thing. And to the 15 extent that the maintenance people would be 16 removing asbestos and replacing insulation, that 17 would be proper work procedure for that. The 18 proper work procedure for that would be part of my 19 responsibility overall. . 20 But as far as any Calidria-produced 21 asbestos, it just wasn't there. 22 Q. O.K. As I understand it, the eleven 23 other locations were eleven Union Carbide plants 24 of one sort or another - 25 A. Yes, Union Carbide metals division. ' DOYLE REPORTING, INC. ( 212) 867 - 8220 UCAREF00018922 1 Rhodes 17 2 Q. Metals division plants of one sort or 3 another - 4 A. Yes . 5 Q. -- none of which used Calidria raw 6 material, if you will, in their production 7 process ? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. At those eleven other locations, 10 there were various asbestos products, pipe 11 covering and clutch facings, that were used by 12 maintenance people? 13 A. Yes. 14 MR. GERSON: Each of the eleven or 15 any of the eleven? 16 THE WITNESS: I can't say that at 17 every one of the eleven they had both of 18 those and any other. They all had vinyl 19 asbestos tile, too. But I couldn't say all 20 of them had everything. 21 Q. I don't want to dwell on these eleven 22 other locations. But at some of these eleven, 23 there were asbestos - containing products, pipe 24 covering, vinyl tile, clutch and brake facings? 25 A. Yes. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018923 1 Rhodes 18 2 Q. In terms of your industrial hygiene 3 supervision, there were certain maintenance 4 activities taking place with respect to those 5 materials that were watched or regulated by Union 6 Carbide; would that be a fair way to put it? 7 A. There would be a safe operating 8 procedure -- a written safe operating procedure. 9 And when I audited and would check, I would 10 spot-check that they -- that the procedure was in 11 place and it was being followed. 12 Q. Did this procedure have some name to 13 it? Was it called something? 14 A. Called different things at different 15 locations, but basically a safe operating 16 procedure. 17 And they had them for all of their 18 operations, as part of their overall health and 19 safety program. 20 Q. And whatever it was titled, it was a 21 written procedure or guideline? 22 A. It was, yes. 23 Q, And it dealt with the topic of 24 asbestos? 25 A. It dealt with how to do the job DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018924 1 Rhodes 19 2 properly and safely. And if asbestos was 3 involved, that would be included. 4 Q. Were these written procedures things 5 that were in place before '81, that you reviewed 6 and updated, or was this something that you 7 actually designed after '81 at these other 8 locations? 9 A. By and large, they were already in 10 place. 11 Q. Before '81, when you came in, was 12 there any companywide procedure in the metals 13 division for handling asbestos - containing 14 materials in the Union Carbide workplaces, or was 15 this on a plant-by-plant basis? 16 A. It was done on a plant-by-plant 17 basis. ' 18 Q. Was that standardized in any way 19 during your tenure from '81 to '86, or did you 20 leave that on a plant-by-plant basis? 21 A. It was changed if I looked at it and 22 felt it was inappropriate. 23 But we did have -- Union Carbide . 24 metals division occupational health activities 25 didn't start in '81. It started well back before DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018925 1 Rhodes 20 2 my time. And the safety manager handled safety. 3 And Paul McDanie'1 out of the corporate 4 professional industrial hygienists, was assigned 5 to the division, and he would set up the basic 6 occupational health aspects of the safe operating 7 procedures, and he would work with the safety 8 director or manager. 9 The program was expanded and 10 formalized when they took on and put a full-time 11 person on it in '81. 12 Q. That was you? 13 A. That was me. 14 Q. And in '81, you visited each of the 15 twelve locations at least every other year, would 16 that be correct? 17 MR. GERSON: In '81 every other 18 year? 19 MR. BROWNSON: Beginning in '81. 20 A. I audited like every other year, but 21 physically around periodically, probably at least 22 once, maybe more than that if there were 23 difficult, significant problems. 24 Q. One of the things you did during 25 these visits or audits was to review the written DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018926 1 Rhodes 21 2 procedures ? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And then you would update those and 5 revise them, if necessary? 6 A. If they were inappropriate. 7 If they needed working on, I would 8 discuss that with them. 9 Q. During the course of 1981 to '86, did 10 you have a chance to review -the written procedures 11 at all of the locations, that had something to do 12 with asbestos? 13 MR. GERSON: Well, I object to the 14 question in the form it is in. It assumes. 15 Could you restate it. 16 MR. BROWNSON: Let me put it this 17 way: 18 Q. There were twelve locations, one of 19 which was King City, and eleven other ones? 2 0 A. Yes. ` 21 Q. As I understand it, at some of the 22 eleven other ones, the written safety procedures 23 dealt with asbestos. Or is.that true of all 24 levels? 25 A. I can't recall. - DOYLE REPORTING, INC. ( 212) 867 - 8220 UCAREF00018927 X Rhodes 22 2 Q. My question, is: 3 At least at t'e ones that did have 4 something to do with asbestos, where there were 5 some asbestos products in the workplace, did you 6 have a chance during those five years to review 7 all of those? 8 A. I just don't recall -- 9 Q. O.K. 10 A. -- where it was spot - checking. 11 Q. When you checked the written 12 procedures at these eleven Union Carbide locations 13 in the metals division other than King City, did 14 you know when you first looked at them whether any 15 of them made any distinction between different 16 fiber types of asbestos and how asbestos in any 17 materials should be handled or dealt with? 18 A. I really didn't notice. 19 Q. During your tenure from '81 to '86, 20 when you revised and updated these various written 21 procedures at these eleven locations, did you put 22 anything in there which distinguished between 23 asbestos fiber types? . 24 MR. GERSON: Before you answer - 25 and I will allow you to answer: DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018928 1 Rhodes 23 2 I just want to reiterate the 3 objection I stated earlier as to relevancy 4 of the inquiry involving such details of 5 Dr. Rhodes' work in eleven other sites when 6 Dr. Rhodes has been designated by us as a 7 fact witness with respect to his work 8 pertaining to the Calidria operation. To 9 the extent this may pertain to that and to 10 Dr. Rhodes' qualifications generally, I can 11 understand it, but I don't understand the 12 deviation in such detail other than on the 13 Calidria site. 14 But, that being said, if he can, I 15 will allow the witness to answer. 16 MR. BROWNSON: Thank you. 17 MR. GERSON: Again, he has been 18 designated as both a fact and expert '19 witness. The expertise is with respect to 20 the Calidria operation. 21 MR. WILL: I have a more prosaic 22 objection: - 23 Maybe we could just clarify on the 24 record whether he, in fact, modified any of 25 those safety operating manuals with respect DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018929 1 Rhodes 24 2 to asbestos. 3 I think you have established and 4 addressed a whole host of things that go on 5 at a particular site. I am not certain 6 that if we are talking about apart from 7 King City if he ever made any changes with 8 respect to asbestos. 9 MR. BROWNSON: I will' start by 10 asking that question. 11 BY MR. BROWNSON: 12 Q. Do you recall if, during the time 13 period '81 to '86, you made any changes in any of 14 the written procedures dealing with asbestos 15 materials, whether handling or maintenance, 16 dealing with them in any way? 17 A. I don't recall whether I made changes 18 or not in any of them. 19 Q. Do you have any recollection as to 20 whether you gave advice, whether written or oral, 21 to Union Carbide people, at any of these eleven 22 locations, that the different fiber types of 23 asbestos should be handled differently or dealt 24 with differently? 25 A. I don't recall doing that. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018930 1 Rhodes 25 2 MR. GERSON: I also object to 3 foundation. 4 I don't think we have established 5 there were different fiber types present at 6 any of these sites. 7 MR. BROWNSON: I want to move on to 8 a different topic, but before I do: 9 Q. Of these eleven other locations, 10 Onion Carbide locations, that you dealt with 11 between '81 and '86, do you remember, do you know, 12 was one o f those at Taft, Louisiana? 13 A. No. 14 Q. That was the chemical division? 15 A. Chemical. 16 Q. How about the one at Institute, West 17 Virginia? Was that one of the eleven? 18 A. No . 19 Q. And the third one I wanted to ask you 20 about was Charles Town, West Virginia. I think it 21 is South Charles Town. 22 Was that one of the eleven? 23 A. No, 24 Q. The labs at Niagara Falls, the Union 25 Carbide labs at Niagara Falls or thereabouts, was DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018931 m 1 Rhodes 26 2 that one of the eleven sites? 3 A. Yes. 4 I was located there. 5 Q. That is where you were physically 6 located? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Was that also considered one of the 9 twelve locations that you were in charge of? 10 A. At the time I transferred, the lab at 11 Niagara Falls was being closed down, so that X had 12 no real involvement with that. 13 The remaining operation at Niagara 14 Falls was one of the locations. 15 Q. And was there any Calidria used, in 16 use, at that location? 17 MR. WILL: Ferro-alloys or lab? 18 A. The ferro-alloys or lab? 19 Q. Ferro-alloys. 20 A. They had asbestos insulation, but 21 they did not use Calidria asbestos. 22 Q. You say it, the lab, was being closed 2 3 down around '81-at Niagara Falls. 24 Was it moved somewhere or closed 25 down? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018932 1 Rhodes 27 2 A. Closed down. 3 Q. Before it was closed down, as I 4 understand it, they did some testing of Calidria 5 asbestos in those labs; is that correct? 6 A. They did research and testing in the 7 laboratories. 8 Q. There weren't any sort of production 9 facilities? 10 A. No asbestos. 11 I joined in 1967. Moved into that. 12 From that time forward, there was no production. 13 Q. Let me take you back before '81. 14 I will preface these questions by 15 telling you what I am getting at. I am interested 16 in the Calidria asbestos operation within Union 17 Carbide. And I know that shifted'around in 18 different divisions that took responsibility for 19 it over the years. But regardless of which 20 division it happened to be in over the various 21 years, I am interested in talking about that 22 operation. O.K.? 23 Was that actually called something? 24 Was it called the asbestos operation or the 25 Calidria operation? How did you refer to it? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018933 1 Rhodes 28 2 A. I am sharing some of the same 3 confusion you a >, because it went on that far 4 back. I believe it came out of the R&D operation 5 in the nuclear division, and it was referred to as 6 the asbestos project and it eventually got 7 referred to as the asbestos business. It was as 8 confused as you have indicated. 9 MR. BROWNSON: For purposes of this 10 deposition, can we just call it the 11 asbestos business? Is that all right with 12 you guys? 13 MR. WILL: "Operation." 14 MR. GERSON: We have provided the 15 history of the corporation. If it will 16 help you, we have a copy and we can provide 17 it. 18 MR. BROWNSON: It is all right. 19 What I am trying to do is actually avoid 20 the different corporate divisions and 21 groups, like the chemical and plastics 22 division, the metals. 23 MR. GERSON: I thought you wanted to 24 get into that. 25 MR. BROWNSON: That had something to DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018934 1 Rhodes 29 2 do with it. 3 But what I am interested in is 4 talking about the Calidria asbestos 5 operation. 6 MR. GERSON: Why don't we call it 7 that. 8 MR. BROWNSON: O.K. 9 BY MR. BROWNSON: 10 Q. I would like to ask you some 11 questions now about the Calidria asbestos 12 operation, and my first question is: 13 When did your duties at Union Carbide 14 first bring you into contact with that operation? 15 A. The fall of 1967. 16 Q. Before we get into that, when did you 17 begin at Union Carbide? ` 18 A. 1957. 19 Q. I have seen your resume in the past. 20 I don't want to dwell on this. Butwas that when ' 21 you got right out of Columbia, or did you work 22 somewhere else first? 23 A. I worked from '49 to '53 at Sun Oil 24 Company, Marcus Hook, Pennsylvania, and worked for 25 Columbia University in a government research DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 - UCAREF00018935 1 Rhodes 30 2 project for four years after that, and was doing 3 my doctorate on the side. And then went to work 4 for Carbide in 'SI, when I finished. 5 Q. In connection with this deposition, 6 did you bring a copy of your CV or resume? 7 MR. WILL: I have one * 8 MR. BROWNSON: Thank you. 9 Can we just mark that and attach it 10 to the transcript? 11 MR. WILL: Yes. 12 It goes to June '86. It has not 13 been updated. 14 MR. BROWNSON: Let's mark that as 15 Exhibit 1. 16 (Curriculum vitae was marked as 17 Plaintiff's Exhibit 1 far identification, 18 as of this date) 19 BY MR. BROWNSON: 20 Q. We have now marked as Exhibit 1 a 21 copy of your curriculum vitae; is that what that 22 is? 23 A. Yes. ' 24 Q. And that takes you up through '86? 25 A. June '86. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018936 1 Rhodes 31 2 Q. O.K. I wanted to just ask you a 3 couple of questions from the time period '57 to 4 '67, when you began at Union Carbide, until you 5 first had some dealings with the Calidria asbestos 6 operation. 7 During that time period, were you 8 aware that Union Carbide had this Calidria 9 operation? 10 A. Not until right before I made the 11 switch and was looking around to see what else 12 Union Carbide might have available. 13 Q. That was right around '67? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. How was it that you discovered or IS learned that Union Carbide had the Calidria 17 asbestos operation? 18 A. I had drifted into a position where I 19 was basically doing product licensing for the 20 Xsosiv project, and it was basically a sales and 21 marketing job. It was not the kind of thing I 22 really wanted to be doing. So I asked the 23 president what is available within Union Carbide 24 that might be -- that might be able to be 25 interested in my services, and this was mentioned. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018937 1 Rhodes 32 2 And it was 20 minutes from where I 3 lived, so it was a good, attractive opportunity. 4 Q- In '67, then, you actually went to 5 work for where -- or at King City? 6 A. No. The asbestos project operation 7 that I had interviewed for was in Niagara Falls, 8 New York. 9 Q. I see. 10 A. It was the R&D laboratory operation. 11 Q. You lived 20 minutes from Niagara 12 Falls, not King City? 13 A. Actually, about 30 minutes. 14 That is correct. 15 Q. At that time, in '67, was the 16 headquarters of the asbestos operation of Union 17 Carbide at Niagara Falls, New York? 18 MR. WILL: "Headquarters" in that 19 context is pretty vague. What do you mean 20 by that? 21 Q. Well, I guess I was just following up 22 on your prior answer, where you said the asbestos 23 operation was 20 minutes from your house. 24 MR. WILL: He said the job he got 25 was 20 minutes. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018938 1 Rhodes 33 2 MR. BROWNSON: Let's back up. 3 Q. What was the job that you got in '67? 4 A. I took over a group that was doing 5 application development, new applications, of the 6 Calidria fiber, and customer service, technical 7 service. 8 Q. That would be customer technical 9 service with respect to Calidria asbestos fiber? 10 A. Calidria, yes. 11 . Q- Before you took that job in '67, had 12 your work at Union Carbide dealt with asbestos in 13 any context? 14 A. No. . 15 Q- How about your prior experience, 16 before coming to Union Carbide? Had that dealt 17 with asbestos in any context? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Would it be fair to say that 20 beginning in '67, your job on a day-to-day basis 21 was to be in charge of the Calidria asbestos fiber 22 business at Union Carbide? 23 MR. WILL: Did you say '57 or '67? 24 MR. BROWNSON: '67. 25 A. No . DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018939 1 Rhodes 34 2 Q. You were just in charge of a certain 3 aspect of that business? 4 A. The application development and 5 technical service. 6 Q. Now, did that job deal with trying to 7 find new applications for Calidria asbestos fiber? 8 A. Yes . 9 Q. Did it also deal with developing or 10 modifying or changing existing applications of 11 Calidria asbestos fiber? 12 A. Yes . 13 Q. When you say "customer technical 14 service," were you dealing with existing 15 customers and any technical questions or service 16 that they had? 17 A. Yes. ' 18 Q. And how long did you hold that 19 position? 20 A. I held variations on that position 21 until I was transferred to the occupational health 22 manager position. 23 Q. So-from the time period 1967 to '81, 24 your job, if you will, on a day-to-day basis, was 25 customer service with respect to Calidria asbestos DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018940 1 Rhodes 35 2 and developing applications for Calidria asbestos? \ 3 A. There was a period in there where we ... 4 were also in marketing. 5 Q. Was that marketing of Calidria? 6 A. Calidria asbestos. Everything that 7 was involved with Calidria asbestos. 8 Q. During that time period, '67 to '81, 9 as I understand it, your technical job title might 10 have changed a little bit - 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. -- but your basic duties remained the 13 same? 14 A. Pretty much the same, varying 15 depending on how much time you spent with 16 customers, how much time you spent doing 17 technical, doing research and development. 18 Q. Also, as I understand it, during that 19 time period of '67 to '81, the Calidria asbestos 20 business was shifted around within different 21 corporate divisions of Union Carbide? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. But at all times from '67 to '81, it 24 was actually owned by some part of Union Carbide. 25 It was just different divisions? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018941 1 Rhodes 36 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. O. . I understand that one of the 4 uses of Calidria asbestos fiber was in 5 papermaking? 6 A. Yes. ' 7 Q. Was that alreadygoing on when you a j oined, in ' 67? 9 A. That was a major activity when I 10 j oined, in '67. n Q. O.K. Was there a predecessor to your 12 j ob before '67? 13 MR. WILL: You mean a person that 14 held that position? 15 MR. BROWNSON: Right. 16 Q. That did the same thing that you did. 17 Or who was there before '67? 18 A. There were laboratory people who were 19 doing some of this. The laboratory was divided 20 basically into research and development, and the 21 research people were doing some of this. But it 22 was not a formal, relatively senior person 23 basically in charge of it. 24 Q. When did the Calidria asbestos 25 business actually begin, in terms of actually DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018942 1 Rhodes 37 2 selling the fiber to customers? 3 A. I don't know. Back somewhere in the 4 ' 60s . 5 MR. GERSON: Are you asking him 6 Union Carbide versus Calidria? 7 MR. BROWNSON: Right. .8 MR. GERSON: We have also provided 9 that information. 10 MR. BROWNSON: I just wanted to know 11 if he knew. 12 BY MR. BROWNSON: 13 Q. Would it be fair to say that in '67 14 Union Carbide, or at least one of its divisions, 15 decided that a new, full-time, senior position 16 would be created, dealing with these aspects of 17 Calidria fiber that you have described, and you 18 were the person that was given that job? . 19 A. Yes, as far as I know. 20 Q. From '67 to '81, was the research and 21 development and the laboratory work with respect 22 to Calidria asbestos at Union Carbide conducted in 23 New York, at Niagara Falls? 24 A. Niagara Falls, yes. 25 Q. In other words, there wasn't - DOYLE REPORTING, INC.(212)867-8220 UCAREF00018943 1 Rhodes 38 2 MR. WILL: State of New York. Not 3 the City of New Y^rk. 4 Q. There wasn't a research lab out in 5 California, King City? 6 A. No. 7 Q. When did you first become involved 8 with industrial hygiene type work with respect to 9 the Calidria asbestos? 10 A. About the time I joined the group, 11 Selikoff was beginning to come out with the 12 publications, the British publications, and it was 13 beginning to be a lot of concern and awareness of 14 possible hazards from the handling of asbestos and 15 how much fiber was given off and exposures and 16 that sort of thing. And we got involved with 17 fiber counting. And at that point, the program I 18 am sure you are going to ask questions about was > 19 kind of an outgrowth of technical service 20 application. 21 In that time was about the time we 22 began reading literature and getting interested in .2 3 the fiber count. 24 Q. Now, as I understand it, at some 25 point Union Carbide started a program where they DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018944 1 Rhodes 39 2 actually did regular asbestos fiber counting at 3 both King City, California, Union Carbide and also 4 the lab at Niagara Falls? 5 A. Starting a program would be putting 6 it a little bit strongly. 1 We were getting questioned about "How 8 much fiber are we going to release if we use your 9 product in my operation.'1 And we started off with 10 the corporate industrial hygienists. We would go 11 to a location and make a fiber count. And these 12 were not comprehensive industrial hygiene surveys. 13 They were limited, spot-checks, ceiling checks, to 14 give the potential user some idea of what kind of 15 exposures he might be creating if he began to use 16 the material. 17 And it became a rather popular thing. 18 There were a limited number of places where the 19 user could go to get a fiber count done, 20 particularly the smaller users. And it became 21 evident that we couldn't use corporate people. 22 Too many other responsibilities. 23 So-we trained a person -- under the 24 corporate industrial hygienist, and our basic 25 policy was to send them to the NIOSH training DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018945 * 1 Rhodes 40 2 school. And then we began having a technician who 3 could do these fiber counts, something that, once 4 we started it, it grew. 5 I don't believe it was a Carbide -- I 6 don't believe that Carbide made a decision that we 7 should go into this full-time. 8 Q. As I understand, what you have just 9 been talking about is asbestos fiber count that 10 Union Carbide would do at various Union Carbide 11 customer locations; right? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. And at some point along the line, as 14 I understand what you are telling us , you actually 15 had a technician who was an employee of Union 16 Carbide, trained to go out to these customer 17 locations and do this customer fiber counting? 18 A. Yes . 19 Q. Who was that? 20 A. The first one was Ed Kleber, and I 21 believe Blair Engels was trained. I can't 22 remember exactly who was trained to do what when, 23 but those two were involved. I took the training. 24 myself, in 1973. 25 Q- Were these people, these technicians, DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018946 1 Rhodes 41 2 operating under the direction of Paul McDaniel or 3 under the direction of you? 4 A. Basically, the way a lab -- the way 5 Industrial Hygiene Association -- to be 6 accessible - 7 MR. WILL: Excuse me. Doctor. Were 8 they under you or under Mr. McDaniel? 9 THE WITNESS: They were under Paul 10 McDaniel's wing, but they were reporting 11 directly to me. 12 Q. Paul McDaniel was the Union Carbide 13 corporate? 14 A. One of the Union Carbide corporate 15 professional CIH, occupational hygienists. IS Q. And he would train these people and 17 be in charge? 18 A. He would stop in periodically and 19 check with people. And they were under his wing. 20 But the day-to-day, who did what and 21 reports and things, I was handling. 22 Q. I want to talk about the asbestos 23 fiber counting done at various customer plants in 24 a little bit more detail. 25 Before I do, do you recall when that DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018947 1 Rhodes 42 2 was first done? 3 Q. When the first one was done? 4 MR. GERSON: You mean the first 5 count at a customer site? 6 MR. BROWNSON: Right. 7 A. Looking at the records, it was spread 8 over -- 1 think was near the end of '71 or about 9 maybe February or January or March, '72. 10 Q. As you think back to that time 11 period, which I think you have done over the past 12 couple of days, do you recall if that work was 13 initiated because of questions or inquiries from 14 customers, or was it initiated because Union 15 Carbide thought this would be a good idea, "Let's 16 tell customers about it"? 17 MR. GERSON: I object to the form. 18 But go ahead. I objected to the 19 form, but if you can answer... 20 THE WITNESS: You want him to 21 rephrase? , 22 MR. GERSON: If he wants to, he can. .2 3 If you understand it, you can answer. If 24 you don't understand it, he will have to 25 rephrase. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018948 1 Rhodes 43 2 THE WITNESS: Could you read it 3 back. -- 4 (Question read) 5 A. It was basically an outgrowth of 6 customers asking about what kind of fiber counts 7 they are going to get in their operation. 8 Initial, first couple of counts were made by the 9 corporate industrial hygiene people. And it had 10 some potential advantages to us. It allowed us to 11 know what kind of exposures people were getting to 12 our products. It seemed as we got into it, it 13 seemed like a reasonably good idea. 14 We talked with the law department 15 about how to handle the reporting - 16 MR. WILL: Excuse me, Doctor. Why 17 don't you just answer his question. He 18 will ask you the next one. 19 THE WITNESS: O.K. Thank you. 20 BY MR. BROWNSON: 21 Q. Before these customer plant asbestos 22 air tests were done by the Union Carbide people 23 beginning at about '71 to '72, did Union Carbide 24 have any data as to what the asbestos exposures 25 were in customer plants using Calidria asbestos? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018949 1 Rhodes 44 2 MR. GERSON: I object to the form. 3 *,,u can go ahead and answer. 4 A. I don't recall. 5 Q. In your review for thedeposition 6 today, have you seen any data from customer 7 locations using Union Carbide Calidria asbestos 8 before 1971? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Have you ever seen, that you can 11 recall, any Union Carbide tests -- in other words, 12 tests done by Union Carbide personnel -- at 13 customer locations using the Calidria asbestos 14 before '71? 15 A. No. 16 Q. As you can recall, do you remember 17 seeing any asbestos ai-r level measurements from 18 customer locations using Calidria asbestos done by 19 the customers, themselves, before '71? 20 A. No. 21 Q. So, as far as your best recollection 22 as you sit here today, the air monitoring for 23 asbestos at Calidria customer locations got under 24 way in that '71-to-'72 time period? 25 A. Yes. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018950 1 Rhodes 45 2 Q. You have told us that you were 3 starting to get these inquiries from customers. 4 Do you know if any file or record was 5 kept of these inquiries from customers that got 6 this program going? 7 A. 1 don't know of any. 8 Q. As you sit here today, 20 some years 9 later, do you recall which customers it was who 10 made the initial inquiries to Union Carbide about 11 air levels of asbestos? 12 A. I don't recall. 13 You have all the files. 14 Q. As best you recall, do you remember 15 if these were papermaking customers, or were these 16 customers in other industries? 17 A. To the best of my recollection, it 18 was in other industries. But I just don't recall 19 for sure. 20 Q. You are familiar with the fact that 21 OSHA was passed right around that time and set the 22 first OSHAasbestos workplace standard in '72? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And you are also aware, I take it, 25 that before '72 there was a lot of discussion as DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018951 1 Rhodes 46 2 to work and about this upcoming OSHA asbestos 3 workplace standard? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. As you sit here today and think back 6 on it, do you recall that these customers' 7 inquiries you talked about around that time were 8 arising because of the OSHA asbestos standard that 9 was 'going into effect around that time? 10 A. 1 have no way of knowing that. 11 Q. Would it be fair to say, at least 12 once Union Carbide got the air-monitoring program 13 under way for customer locations, that one of the 14 uses was to see how the customer workplaces were 15 complying with the OSHA asbestos test? 16 A. We were not - 17 THE WITNESS: Can I have the 18 question back. 19 {Question read)' 20 A. The answer is no. 21 BY MR. BROWNSON: ' 22 Q. So, as far as Union Carbide was 23 concerned, you were not attempting to compile data 24 to see how customer locations were faring or 25 complying with respect to the OSHA asbestos DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018952 1 Rhodes 47 2 standards after '72? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Do you know, based upon your contacts 5 with the various customers, if the customers, 6 themselves, were using the Union Carbide air level 7 measurements for purposes of seeing whether they 8 were complying with the OSHA standards for 9 asbestos? 10 THE WITNESS: Can I hear that 11 . question back again. 12 (Question read) 13 A. The answer is no. . 14 BY MR. BROWNSON: 15 Q. By that you mean you don't know or 16 you know that they weren't using? 17 A. I don't know whether they were using 18 them. 19 Q. Do you recall that there was concern 20 at the Union Carbide Calidria asbestos business, 21 after '72, that if the Calidria could not be 22 handled and used by customers in conformity with 2 3 the OSHA standards, that it might hurt the 24 business, the Calidria business? 25 THE WITNESS: I am sorry. I am DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018953 1 Rhodes 48 2 having trouble. 3 Could you read that back. 4 (Question read) 5 A. I don't recall any of that. 6 BY MR. BROWNSON: 7 Q. In '67, when you joined this Calidria 8 businesswhat were the industries where Calidria 9 was used? 10 A. The major users, I think, were the 11 paper industry, and I am not sure whether the 12 vinyl asbestos tile producers were really going in 13 or -- they were substantially in at that time, I 14 think. 15 Q. But the largest user at that time was 16 the papermaking industry? 17 A. I think so. ' 18 Q. Now, as I understand it,over- the 19 years, other businesses were developed for the 20 Calidria asbestos, the vinyl flooring, the 21 drilling mud, oil drilling mud, and I think also 22 spackling compound; is that right? 23 A. Taping compound. 24 Q. Were there otherindustries or 25 industry groups that were developed over the DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018954 1 Rhodes 49 2 years, as customers? 3 A. Well, the main thrust of our 4 development work was the use of the asbestos as a 5 viscosity-control agent, and on the RG244 in S particular. And we were working on the use of 7 that in polyester boat manufacture, shower and tub 8 stall manufacture, all the things you make out of 9 polyester. And, while in total tonnage that was 10 not a great, large tonnage, but it was sold in 11 competition with CABO-SIL, which was a 12 dollar-a-pound type product. 13 So our major thrust was application. 14 where we were selling in markets other than 15 asbestos. 16 Q. When you say your "major thrust," you 17 mean you were trying to develop new business in 18 those markets? 19 A. New business, new customers, in those 20 markets. 21 Q. While you were doing that, the 22 papermaking industry remained a large customer of 23 Calidria asbestos throughout the years? 2 4 A. The paper industry faded out after -- 25 in the early part of the time that I was there. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018955 1 Rhodes 50 2 The vinyl asbestos tile more or less replaced that 3 as the product that kept the plant running. 4 > Q. In '67, the papermaking industry was 5 the biggest customer for Union Carbide asbestos? 6 A. To the best of my knowledge, it was. 7 I was not involved in how much we were selling at 8 that point in time, in that kind of context. 9 Q. I am just asking for general figures 10 here. 11 But at some point the papermaking 12 industry declined as a customer and new 13 industries, notably vinyl flooring, became bigger? 14 A. Became bigger, yes. 15 Q. "Would you say that it was in the 16 mid-'70s or so that that papermaking industry 17 decline took place? When was that? 18 A. My impression is it was earlier than 19 that. But it is in that time frame. I just don't 20 recall. 21 Q. Do you know why it was that the 22 papermaking industry lessened its usage of 23 Calidria asbestos? 24 A. There were some technical problems, 25 but I don't know for sure. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. {212)867-8220 UCAREF00018956 1 Rhodes 51 2 Q. Let me ask you one more question and 3 we will take our break: 4 Do you recall in '67, when you began, 5 whether Conwed was a customer, or do you recall 6 learning that Conwed was a customer of Calidria 7 asbestos? 8 A. All I can say to that was I may have 9 heard it. 10 It was not an account that I had 11 anything to do with. It was being handled by 12 someone else, who I don't recall. It wasn't my 13 job. 14 Q. And Conwed was previously known as 15 Wood Conversion Company. It changed its name 16 right around '67. So I guess the same question 17 with respect to Wood Conversion Company. 18 A. Somewhere along the line I heard they 19 were putting it in -- replacing amosite, amosite, 20 in order to make their sag and fire retardants. 21 (Recess taken) 22 BY MR. BROWNSON: 23 Q. You mentioned just before the break 24 that.at some point you became aware of Conwed as 25 one of the customers of Calidria asbestos; right? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018957 % Rhodes 52 2 A. Yes . 3 Q- Du you remember when that was? 4 A. No . 5 Q. We have been talking here about the 6 use of Calidria asbestos in the papermaking 7 industry. 8 Did you understand that Conwed was in 9 that industry? 10 A. No . 11 Q- Did you ever gain that understanding? 12 A. At this moment. 13 Q- O.K. 14 MR. WILL: Are you suggesting that 15 they are in the papermaking industry? 16 MR. BROWNSON: Well, let me back up 17 here. Yes, actually, I am.' 18 Q. Did you understand that Conwed made 19 ceiling tile s? 20 A. Yes . 21 Q. Did you ever gain an understanding 22 that the manufacture of ceiling tiles is 23 essentially a papermaking process? 24 A. No. . 25 Q. Now, you mentioned that you knew that DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018958 1 Rhodes 53 2 Conwed was using the Calidria asbestos as an 3 ingredient to meet sag standards and for fire 4 retardancy in the ceiling tile? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And when did you gain that 7 understanding? 8 A. I don't recall. 9 Q. When you say "sag standards," first 10 of all, you know what acoustical ceiling tile is, 11 I take it? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. By "sag standards" you mean that the 14 tile -- you are trying to prevent it from sagging 15 once they are installed, they have to have a 16 certain strength? 17 A. My impression was it was a fire 18 rating, that they don't sag under normal 19 conditions. . 20 But it is an area that I really was 21 not much involved in. 22 Q. You said at some point that Conwed 23 began purchasing asbestos? 24 A. I learned about it sometime when I 25 was there. It was just casual conversations. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018959 % 1 R----h--o---d---e--s- 54 2 Q. Did you ever have any conversations 3 with anyone from Conwed corporation? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Did this knowledge you gained come 6 from people working at Union Carbide? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you know who it was that you had 9 these conversations with, who told you that? 10 A. No recollection whatsoever. 11 Q. Do you know if it was Mr. Meyers? 12 A. I don't know. 13 Q. Did you ever gain an understanding a 14 to why Conwed wished to replace the amosite 15 asbestos in its ceiling tile with Calidria? 16 A. The only real information I got on 17 that was reading the call reports yesterday. 18 Q. Which reports? 19 A. The call reports. 20 Q. When you say "call reports," what 21 specifically are you referring to? 22 A. The reports of the salesmencalling 23 on them prior to my time. 24 Q. Those are reports you read in 25 connection with the deposition here? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018960 1 Rhodes 55 2 A. Yes . 3 Q. Those were prepared by who? 4 A. I don't recall. 5 Q- With respect to the industrial 6 hygiene asbestos air-monitoring tests that Union 7 Carbide did at customer locations that we were 8 talking about, how long did those continue? 9 A. They continued until approximately 10 1985, when the business was sold from the asbestos 11 group. 12 Q. Were those some of the things you 13 reviewed in preparation for the deposition today? 14 A. I reviewed them, but I did not 15 attempt to go through the file. 16 Q. Where did you conduct this review? 17 A. In a conference room here. 18 Q. Did you have available for your 19 review the entire file of all of the customer 20 air-monitoring data, or was it just certain ones? 21 A. It was my understanding that it was 22 the entire file, but I would have to defer, to see 23 if that is correct. 24 Q. Were there approximately four boxes' 25 worth, four of these big cardboard boxes? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018961 1 Rhodes 56 2 A. It was considerably more than that. 3 Q- Do you remember how many of the 4 cardboard boxes? 5 MR. GERSON: Well, I mean, how are 6 you defining the dimensions? 7 MR. BROWNSON: I could define them 8 as boxes. 9 MR. WILL: If it he-lps, I think a 10 11 . 12 13 rough guesstimate, there were about 500. He didn't read them all. But I think that was it, if that tells you. MR. BROWNSON: Well, let me just - 14 the reason I am asking is we had requested 15 the customer air-monitoring files. I got 16 four boxes' worth of files. I am just 17 wondering if that is what they are. 18 MR. WILL: It is my understanding 19 that that is what you got. But that is my 20 understanding. Maybe I am wrong. 21 MR. GERSON: Whatever you requested 22 you got. 23 BY MR. BROWNSON: 24 Q. Prior to reviewing of the Union 25 Carbide air-monitor tests at customer locations DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018962 1 Rhodes 57 2 for the past few days, when had you last seen 3 those? 4 A. It was certainly not after I retired, 5 and I doubt very much if I had looked at them, 6 surveyed them, in the years prior to that time. 7 Q. And did the collection of tests you 8 looked at in the last few days seem to be 9 complete? 10 A. I had no way of knowing whether they 11 were complete or not. 12 They were extensive. 13 ' Q. When you were at Union Carbide from, 14 say, about '71, when these tests began, up through 15 '85, where were those kept? 16 A. Until '81, they were kept in a file 17 cabinet in the accounting laboratory. 18 Q. At Niagara Falls? 19 A. At Niagara Falls, New York. 20 After '81 -- I moved out '82, and 21 they were shutting down that operation. I have no 22 idea where they were kept. 23 Q. Now, earlier this morning, when I was 24 asking you about the air-monitoring testing at 25 customer locations, you described them as limited DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018963 1 Rhodes 58 2 spot-checks and ceiling checks. I want to ask you 3 a little bit about those terms. 4 When you described them as ceiling 5 checks, did you mean by that air testing to see if 6 what was called the OSHA extrusion level or 7 ceiling level was being exceeded? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You weren't talking about a ceiling 10 like acoustical tile ceiling? 11 A. No. 12 Q. So you were familiar that the OSHA 13 standard beginning about '72 had what was called 14 an extrusion level or a ceiling level in it? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What did you understand that 17 particular standard or-term to be? 18 A. The term was defined as a level which 19 could not be exceeded at any time. 20 Q. As you sit here today, having made 21 this review of the regulations, do you recall what 22 that level was throughout the years? Because it 23 did change. 24 A. Through the time period we are 25 looking at, it was ten fibers per cc, and longer DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018964 1 Rhodes 59 2 than five microns. 3 Q. When the OSHA asbestos workplace 4 standard began, in '72, as far as you understand, 5 the ceiling level or extrusion level was ten 6 fibers per cc, and asbestos fibers longer than 7 five microns in length; is that right? 3 A. Yes. 9 Q. Then that changed at some point along 10 the way. 11 Do you recall when that first 12 changed? 13 A. My recollection is that wasn't until 14 the new standards, around '87 or '88, in 15 approximately that time frame. 16 Q. Do you recall any proposed changes in 17 that ceiling level before '87 or '88? 18 A. There was a proposal -- and I am 19 somewhere in that interval; I am not quite clear 20 where - - that was either withdrawn or knocked down 21 in court. 22 Q. As you sit here today, do you recall 23 whether you, personally, had any involvement in 24 working for or against the proposed change in the 25 ceiling level in the OSHA standards? . DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018965 1 Rhodes 60 2 A. The OSHA proposal was after I had 3 retired, I think. I did not work in any 4 connection in that time frame, working for or 5 against any standard. 6 Q- So that would be before '86? 7 A. Before '86. 8 Q. Are you aware ofthe fact that at all 13 9 times from '72 to '85 the OSHA occupational 10 - workplace as bestos standards made no distinction 11 as to fiber type? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. So am I correct when I made that 14 statement? 15 MR. WILL: Are you asking for a 16 legal opinion or for his understanding? 17 MR. BROWNSON: Let me rephrase the 18 question. 19 Q. Do you know if there was ever a 20 distinction in the OSHA asbestos workplace 21 standards, from '72 to '85, with respect to 22 asbestos fiber type? 23 A. There was no distinction. 24 Q. Did Union Carbide personnel, 25 including you, ever make any effort in that time DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018966 1 Rhodes 61 2 period, '72 to '86, to persuade OSHA to make a 3 distinction about asbestos fiber type in the 4 occupational asbestos standards? 5 A. I have no recollection of that kind 6 of activity. 7 Q. Are you familiar with the AIA? 8 A. Yes . 9 Q. What is the AIA? 10 A. AIA is Association of Asbestos 11 International Associations, which is an 12 association of asbestos trade associations from a 13 large number of countries AAIA. 14 Q. Was Union Carbide ever a member of 15 the AIAA? 16 A. Yes -- Union Carbide was not. Union 17 Carbide was a member of the AIANA, North America, 18 which was a member of the AAIA. 19 Q. O.K. Do you know what years Union 20 Carbide was a member of the AIANA? 21 A. It started in about 1971. 22 Q. Did you have anything to do with 23 Union Carbide joining the AIANA? 24 A. No. 25 Q. In other words, it wasn't done at DOYLE REPORTING, INC.(212)867-8220 UCAREF00018967 1 Rhodes 62 2 your suggestion? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. Do you know whose idea it was that 5 you ought to apply for membership in that 6 organization? 7 A. I have no idea. 8 Q. Do you know why it wasthat Union 9 Carbide joined the AIANA? 10 A. I really don't know that. 11 . Those decisions weremade at 12 corporate headquarters. 13 Q . Do you recall in the 1970s or in the 14 '72 time period that there was concern within the 15 Calidria asbestos business at Union Carbide that 16 the OSHA asbestos standard could have an effect on 17 the business? 18 MR. GERSON: You asked that already. 19 Can you read that back. 20 (Question read) 21 A. At what level? 22 BY MR. BROWNSON: 23 Q. Well, at your level. 24 A. I don't recall. 25 Q. What I am wondering is this: DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018968 1 Rhodes 63 2 It was around 1971 or so that Union 3 Carbide joined the AIANA, and it was also around 4 that same time that Union Carbide started the 5 programming of air-monitoring customer locations,6 and I am just wondering if these activities were 7 somehow connected with the OSHA asbestos standard 8 that went into effect at around the same time. 9 A. I would say that they were an 10 outgrowth of the concern that OSHA would go off 11 and go out - - 12 THE WITNESS: I am struggling, 13 obviously. 14 MR. GERSON: Don't struggle. Take 15 your time. . 16 THE WITNESS: Read me back the 17 question. 18 (Question read) 19 MR, GERSON: I will object to the 20 form of the question. 2 1 But if you feel you can answer it - 22 or, if not, I am sure Mr. Brownson will be 23 happy to"rephrase it. 24 A. I think I would appreciate it if you 25 would rephrase it. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018969 1 Rhodes 64 2 BY MR. BROWNSON: 3 Q. Do you know if the actions of Union 4 Carbide in joining the AIANA and beginning the 5 air-monitoring program at customer locations were 6 related in any way to the OSHA asbestos standard 7 that was going into effect? 8 MR. WILL: It is a compound 9 question. I mean, just to move this along, 10 he already said he doesn't know why they 11 joined the AIANA. 12 Why don't you take that out of the 13 question and why don't you ask that 14 ' separately, rather than mixing up the AIANA 15 and the air monitoring with the OSHA 16 standards ? 17 MR. BROWNSON: Let me ask this: 18 Q. I have already asked you about the 19 air-monitoring program. 20 Did Union Carbide take any steps in 21 the Calidria asbestos business which were related 22 to the OSHA asbestos standard that took place in 23 '72, if you can recall? 24 A. I can't answer that question, because 25 all those decisions came down from New York. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018970 1 Rhodes 65 2 Q. When you say "New York" you mean - - 3 A. Headquarters. 4 Q. -- headquarters in New York City? 14 5 A. Yes . 6 Q. O.K. Regardless of who made the 7 decision, do you recall getting certain directives 8 or information from the Union Carbide headquarters 9 in New York. City, around 1972, having to do with 10 steps you were to take or things you were to do in 11 the Calidria business because of the OSHA asbestos 12 standard that was taking effect at that time? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Now, do you recall any directives 15 coming to you from the headquarters in New York 16 City concerning industrial hygiene steps or 17 activities you were to take with respect to the 18 Calidria asbestos business? 19 A. No. ' 20 MR. WILL: Again, in '72? 21 MR. BROWNSON: Well, actually, the 22 question is broader than that. At any 23 time. 24 Q. Here is what I am getting at: 25 Were decisions as to industrial DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018971 1 Rhodes 66 2 hygiene activities in the Calidria asbestos 3 business made at the headquarters in New York 4 City, or were those made by you and/or Mr. 5 McDaniel? 6 MR. GERSON: Which decisions? All 7 decisions? Any decisions? 8 MR. BROWNSON: Any decisions ' 9 relating to industrial hygiene activities. 10 A. The industrial hygiene program at 11 King City was set up and in operation by Paul 12 McDaniel back when it was built. And the -- and 13 we also had good and proper handling procedures 14 for the laboratory activities in Niagara Falls. 15 And decisions on what they would do 16 in response to regulations and that sort of thing 17 came out of the management people in the New York 18 City office. We were not privy to those 19 decisions. 20 Q.' Now let me ask you this question: 21 When the OSHA asbestos standard took 22 effect in '72, did you get any instructions or 23 directives from the corporate office in New York 24 City as to steps you should take or things you 25 should do in the Calidria business because the net DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018972 1 Rhodes 67 2 asbestos standard had been enacted? 3 A. No . -' 4 We were basically in compliance at 5 that time. 6 Q. When you say "We were basically in 7 compliance," you mean the operation in King City, 8 California? 9 . A. And the laboratory. 10 Q. How about with respect to customers 11 out at their various plants? 12 You told us earlier that you don't 13 know what their particular asbestos exposures were 14 before that time; is that correct? 15 A. Yes . 16 Q. When you described the air monitoring 17 at customer locations, in addition to referring to 18 that as a ceiling check, you also referred to it 19 earlier as a limited spot-check. 20 What did you mean by that? 21 A. Depending on the operation, the 22 environment around the area where the asbestos is 23 being used was part of the determination. 24 Most of those operations involved 25 dumping asbestos at infrequent intervals. In some DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018973 1 Rhodes 68 2 cases we would pick up, take the whole morning; 3 some we would just monitor ceilings while the man 4 was doing the dumping. We did not spend the whole 5 day getting -- eight hours, things of that 6 nature -- doing a comprehensive coverage of the 7 entire operation where asbestos might be released. 8 Q. Do you recall whether the customers 9 were told that these, the results of these 10 spot-checks, were not to be extrapolated out? 11 A. The customers were not told that 12 specifically in writing. But we always sent them 13 a copy of the OSHA standards, referred them to the 14 OSHA standards. 15 Q. You told us today you had reviewed 16 the air-monitoring tests done at Conwed; is that 17 correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. How many visits were there to the 20 Conwed plant by Union Carbide personnel for air 21 monitoring? That you saw? 22 A. That I saw or know of, just that one 23 visit . 24 Q That was in about October '72? 25 A. I think so, yes, or thereabouts. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. {212)867-8220 UCAREF00018974 1 Rhodes 69 2 MR. WILL: I think it was August. 3 MR. BROWNSON: Yes, the visit was 4 August. That is true. 5 Q. Before preparing for your deposition 6 here in the past few days, had you ever seen that 7 before? 8 A. I have no recollection of ever seeing 9 it before. 10 I would have no reason to look at it. 11 Q. Do you know why it was that Union 12 Carbide personnel did not go back to the Conwed 13 plant after '72 to do further air measuring? 14 MR. GERSON: I object to the form of 15 the question for lack of foundation. 16 I don't' think the witness testified 17 that Carbide personnel, in fact, did not go 18 back. I think he just testified that he 19 does not know. 20 Q. Let me put the question to you this 21 way: 22 Assuming, Dr. Rhodes, that Union 23 Carbide personnel did not go back to the Conwed 24 plant after the one air test in '72, do you know 25 why that was? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018975 1 Rhodes 70 2 MR. WILL: You mean they didn't go 3 back to do more air testing? 4 MR. BROWNSON: Right, to do more air 5 testing. 6 A. I have no idea. That is not what I 7 would call a house account. We didn't hear very 8 much about it. 9 Q. What do you mean by that? 10 A. It was handled by someone not at our 11 location. A manager. Something of that nature. 12 We had very little contact with 13 Conwed. 14 Q,. When you say the account was handled 15 by someone else, you mean the day-to-day dealings 16 with Conwed were done by someone? 17 A. Other than anybody I had any contact 18 with. 19 Q. Do you know which Union Carbide 20 office had the responsibility for handling that 21 account ? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. Are you aware that the Union Carbide 24 air monitoring at customer plants does not provide 25 a comprehensive picture of any possible exposure DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018976 1 Rhodes 71 2 at the plant? 3 MR. GERSON: I object to the form. 4 THE WITNESS: I am sorry? 5 MR. GERSON: You want that read 6 back? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 (Question read) 9 MR. WILL: Comprehensive possible 10 exposure to what? 11 MR. BROWNSON: Exposure to asbestos 12 in the air. 13 A. Yes . 14 BY MR. BROWNSON: 15 Q. Is that why you refer to them as 16 spot - checks? 17 A. Basically, yes. 18 Q. In other words, what they show is air 19 levels at a particular time, during a particular 20 operation that is being monitored? 21 A. Yes . 22 MR. GERSON: Referring now to the 23 spo t- checks. 24 MR. BROWNSON: Right. 25 MR. GERSON: All right. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. :212)867-8220 UCAREF00018977  1 Rhodes 72 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 MR. BROWNSON: O.K. 4 BY MR. BROWNSON: 5 Q. Now, were you familiar with something 6 called the American Conference of Government 7 Industrial Hygienists? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Are you aware of a threshold limit 10 value that that group published for different 11 particles of fibers over the years? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And as part of your duties beginning 14 in '67, did you become acquainted with that, or 15 did you learn about that some time after that? 16 A. No recollection of when I first 17 became aware of it. 18 Q. Are you aware that the ACGIH 19 published a special limit value for asbestos? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And, as you sit here today, do you 22 have any recollection of when you became aware of 23 that? " 24 A. It was probably in the '70s or in the 25 '70s somewhere. It began as the OSHA thing. OSHJ DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018978 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Rhodes 73 proposals came up. Q. And do you recall the point in early 70s when you became aware of the ACGIH special limits for asbestos that you learned had been published by the ACGIH since '46? A. I was not aware of how long it had been around. Q. When you first became aware of the ACGIH special limits value for asbestos, did you make any inquiry or research to find out how long it had been in effect? A. No. Q. Were you a member of the ACGIH at any time ? A. No. American Conference of Government Industrial Hygienists, and I have never been a government industrial hygienist. Q. When you first became aware of the ACGIH special limits value for asbestos, did you become aware that' it had been published for some period of time before the early 1970s? A. I was not aware of how long it had been around. Q. Did you ever collect or obtain any of DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018979 P 1 Rhodes 74 2 the booklets published by the ACGIH that contained 3 their threshold limit values? 4 A. Yes. . 5 Q. You are aware of the fact they came 6 out with these little booklets? I think they are 7 about six or eight inches tall, three inches wide. 8 A. I am aware of them, yes. 9 Q. Were you aware of the fact that the 10 bookie ts were published annually? 11 A. Yes . 12 Q. And at some time, beginning in the 13 early 197 Os, did you subscribe to them or collect 14 them? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did you ever obtain a collection of 17 those booklets? 18 A. Some time after I got into 19 professional industrial hygiene, in the '80s. 20 Q. You got them at that point? 21 A. Somewhere in that time frame, I began 22 looking at them. 23 I got into threshold limit values for 24 other materials than asbestos. 25 Q. You told us, when you began working DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018980 1 Rhodes 75 2 in the Calidria asbestos business in '67, you 3 became aware that there had been some materials 4 published by Dr. Selikoff? 5 A. Yes. 6 MR. WILL: I think he said shortly 7 after that. 8 MR. BROWNSON: Right. 9 Q. Shortly after you got your job in 10 '67, you became aware of this material published 11 by Dr. Selikoff? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you recall if you read any of his . 14 articles pertaining to asbestos? 15 A. I did, yes. I had read some of his 16 articles. 17 Q. Do you recall if you received any 18 information from the Union.Carbide medical 19 director's office in New York City about the 20 Selikoff research around that time? 21 A. We received -- what did we call it - 22 toxicology, one or two sheets, discussion of the 23 toxicology of asbestos, written by the corporate 24 medical department. I am a little vague on just 25 when that first -- somewhere in '65-66, I think. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018981 1 Rhodes 76 2 It was there when I got there; put it 3 that way. 4 Q. You recall the Union Carbide medical 5 department published a sheet or paper called 6 asbestos toxicology report? 7 A. Something with that title, yes. 8 Q. Do you remember that that was 9 authored by Dr. Carl Durnell? Does that ring a 10 bell? 11 . A. Yes. 12 Q. And these asbestos toxicology 13 reports, that was the information you received 14 from the Union Carbide medical office -- 15 A. Right. 16 Q. -- about asbestos and health? 17 A. Yes . 18 Q. Did you have any conversations with 19 Dr. Durnell about the topic of asbestos and health 20 after '67? 21 A. I don't recall any. 22 Q. How about any of the other medical 23 doctors in the Union Carbide medical department? 24 Did you have any discussions with them about the 25 topic of asbestos and health after '67? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018982 1 Rhodes 77 2 A. Yes-. 3 Q. Do you recall when that would have 4 taken place? 5 A. Some time in the time frame after I 6 was manager of occupational health with Dr. 7 Fortney. 8 Q. That would be sometime between 1981 9 and '86? 10 A. Yes. 11 Also with Dr. Lewinsohn. 12 Q. And those discussions with both Dr. 13 Lewinsohn and Dr. Fortney would have taken place 14 sometime between '81 and '86? 15 A. Some time after I was involved with 16 occupational health. 17 Q. Before '81, do X understand, then, 18 that you had no personal discussions with the 19 medical doctors in Union Carbide medical 20 department about asbestos and health? 21 A. None that I recall. 22 Q. Do you recall having anydiscussions 23 with doctors elsewhere, medical doctors, before 24 '81, on the topic of asbestos and health? 25 A. Yes . DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018983 1 Rhodes 78 2 Q. Can you describe for me what those 3 were. 4 A. Vaguely, with the -- I can't remember 5 the names the Johns-Manville corporate medical 6 director. 7 Q. Was that Dr. Kenneth Smith? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Do you remember who that was? 10 A. I- don't. 11 Q. Do you recall when those discussions 12 took place? 13 A. Those would have been in the middle 14 ' 70s , middle to late '70s. ' 15 Q. Do you know if that would have been 16 after August '74? 17 A. Probably.- I am not sure. 18 Q. Do you remember what the topic of 19 those discussions was? 20 A. The topic was basically health 21 effects. That is what you talk to them about. 22 Q. And other than the asbestos 23 toxicology reports authored by Dr. Carl Durnell, 24 did you receive any other documents or literature 25 or books or articles about asbestos and health DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018984  1 Rhodes 79 2 from the Union Carbide medical department before 3 '81? 4 A. 5 Q. 1 don't recall receiving any. Do you ever recall seeing any reports 6 about animal inhalation studies conducted by the 7 Mellon Institute with different types of asbestos? 8 A. I had heard about it, that it 9 existed. But the first time I saw it was the day 10 before an earlier deposition. 11 Q. That would be in the last couple of 12 years? 13 A. 14 Q. Last three or four years. When you say you heard about it, do 15 you remember when you first heard about that? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Do you know if it was before '81? 18 A. . Possibly. 19 Q. But whenever you first heard about 20 it, you never actually saw it? 21 A. Never. 22 Q. Do you know in what context you first 23 heard about it? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Do you know who told you about it? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018985 1 Rhodes 80 2 A. NO. 3 Q. Were you aware that one of the types 17 4 of asbestos that was used in the experiment was 5 Calidria? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And do you know when you became aware 8 of that? 9 A, No. 10 Q. As I understand it, you didn't have 11 anything to do with actually conducting those 12 experiments? 13 A. Absolutely not. 14 Q. You became aware of it after the 15 fact? 16 ' A. 17 Q. Well after the fact. Do you remember becoming aware of 18 what the results of the experiments showed? 19 A. I had a vague understanding that 20 there was no difference between the two types of 2 1 asbestos, but it was vague. 22 Q. Do you know what the two types of 23 asbestos were that were used in those experiments; 24 A. Probably -- well, no. Calidria 25 and -- well, Calidria, a California and a DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018986 1 Rhodes 81 2 Canadian. 3 Q. You told us a minute ago about 4 discussions that you had with some medical 5 director at Johns-Manville. 6 Do you know if those discussions were 7 on the topic of the Johns-Manville mine out near 8 King City? 9 A. I don't recall. I would doubt it. 10 Q. Were they probably about moregeneral 11 health effects of asbestos? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. In terms of health effects of 14 asbestos, do you hold any opinions today as to 15 whether there are any differences in health 16 effects between the fiber mined at the three 17 different mines around King City, the Union 18 Carbide, the Atlas and the Johns-Manville? 19 MR. WILL: He is not offered as a 20 medical expert and I think this is outside 21 of his area of expertise.. But I am not 22 going to tell him not to answer. I will 23 simply put that on the record. 24 THE WITNESS: If you would read that 25 back. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018987 1 Rhodes 82 2 (Question read) 3 MR. BROWNSON: Let me rephrase the 4 question. , 5 BY MR. BROWNSON: 6 Q. Did you ever hear from anybody that 7 there was any difference in health effects between 8 the 'asbestos fiber mined in the three different 9 mines, Union Carbide, the Johns-Manville and the 10 Atlas mine? 11 A, No. 12 Q. Did you understand there were any 13 different physical or chemical properties between 14 the fibers mined in those three different mines? 15 A. No. 16 Q. As far as you knew, they were 17 basically the same deposits and the same type of 18 fiber? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you know whythe Union Carbide 21 Calidria fiber was pelletized? 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. Why was that? 24 A. I was not privyto thedecision, but 25 the processing came out of research, and they had DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018988 1 Rhodes 83 2 opted to do a wet processing. And once you have 3 got it in water, you are not going to ship it 4 around in buckets; you have to get it dry again. 5 And the only way to get it dry is to filter it, 6 pelletize it and run it through a drier. 7 Q. This was a decision made before '67? 8 A. This was a decision made well before 9 my time. 10 Q. By someone other than you? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. You are not saying, are you, that the 13 only way you could dry Calidria asbestos was to 14 pelletize it? 15 A. No . 16 Q. It was sold as open fiber as well as 17 pelletized fiber? 18 A. Yes . 19 Q. By "open" I mean loose or 20 nonpelletized fiber. 21 A. No. You must go through a pellet 22 stage. The open fiber was a pellet which had been 23 reopened. ' 24 Q. So the Union Carbide Calidria 25 asbestos fiber was sold in two forms, pelletized DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018989 1 Rhodes 84 2 form and nonpelletized form? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. You are telling us all of the fiber 5 at the mill was pelletized, but then some of it 6 was - - 7 A. Reopened. 8 Q. Or unpelletized, and sold that way? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. When you say you know why the 11 decision was made to pelletize the fiber, that was 12 basically because the milling process was a wet 13 process ? 14 THE WITNESS: Let me have that 15 question again. ' 16 (Question read) 17 A. Well, somewhere back when they were 18 doing the research, they decided they would go 19 with a wet process. So, in order to get product 20 which could be sold, or moved, they had to dry it, 21 and that was the way it was selected. 22 I am not quite sure I understand what 23 you are driving at. 24 BY MR. BROWNSON: 25 Q. Let me ask you this: DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018990 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Rhodes 85 Do you know why the wet process was selected for the mill at King City? A. No. Q. Do you know if it had anything to do with keeping dust down in the mill? A. I don't know that. Q. In your view, was Calidria pelletized asbestos less dusty than other asbestos that was nonpelletized? A. Yes. Q. In your view,did the form of the asbestos as pellets provide a less dusty type of asbestos for handling out at customer plants, as compared to nonpelletized asbestos sold by competitors? A. Yes. Q. As you think back, in the years after 1967, do you know if Union Carbide used that as one of the factors in marketing the asbestos? A. Yes. Q. That it is less dusty because it is pelletized? A. Yes. Q. In your view, as you look back on it, DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018991 1 Rhodes 86 2 you believe that the pelletized Calidria was less 3 dusty when used in customer plants than the 4 open-fiber Calidria or the nonpelletized Calidria? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. So there was a difference not only 7 between Calidria and competitors' asbestos but 8 there was a difference between pelletized and 9 nonpelletized Calidria, in terms of dustiness? 10 A. Yes. 11 . Q. And if you could sum up that 12 difference, it basically was that the pelletized 13 Calidria is less dusty when used than 14 nonpelletized asbestos; would that be fair to say? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Do you recall, at some point along 17 the line in '71, that Johns-Manville introduced a 18 process at their mine out at California where they 19 were making briquettes of their asbestos? 20 A. Now that you mention it, I have a 21 very, very vague recollection of something like 22 that. But you asserted it. 23 Q. Now, the asbestos deposit in 24 California was known as the Coalinga deposit. 25 Are you familiar with that? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018992 1 Rhodes 87 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And as I understand it, there were 4 three operating mines in that deposit. Union 5 Carbide had one and Johns-Manville had one and 6 Atlas had one. Is that right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And the Union Carbide fiber that came 9 out of that deposit was called Calidria? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you know what the trade name for 12 the Atlas asbestos was that came out of that 13 deposit? 14 A. I know they had one, but I don't 15 recall it. 16 Q. Howabout Johns-Manville? Do you 17 know what their trade name was of that asbestos 18 from that deposit? 19 A. Theonly recollection Ihave is I 20 think the material they sold was Lowsal. Whether 21 they sold others, in other industries, with other 22 names, I don't recall. 23 Q. And getting to this business about 24 the briquettes, was it your understanding that 25 both Atlas and Johns-Manville essentially sold DOYLE REPORTING, INC.' (212)867- 8220 UCAREF00018993 1 Rhodes 88 2 their asbestos from that deposit in California in 3 bags of fiber? In other words, it wasn't 4 pelletized, like Union Carbide's was? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And - - 7 MR. GERSON: "Yes," it was not 8 pelletized like Union - 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, it was not 10 pelletized like Union Carbide. 11 Q. In going back to the timeperiod '67 12 up through '81, when you were working with the 13 Calidria asbestos, did you consider that Calidria 14 had a competitive advantage over those two 15 competitors because Calidria had the pelletized 16 asbestos and they did not? 17 A. In the area where pelletized asbestos 18 could be used, they had a clear advantage. 19 Q. Do you remember that Union Carbide 20 had some concern in about '71 that Johns-Manville 21 was going to sell a pelletized form of this 22 asbestos from California by making it into these 23 briquettes? ' 24 A. I don't remember any concern. 25 Q. What is it that you recall about DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018994 1 Rhodes 89 2 Johns-Manville making these asbestos briquettes? 3 A. I really have very little 4 recollection. 5 Somewhere I have an impression that 6 they tried it and it didn't work; it didn't work 7 out. I don't think they ever got out on the 8 market in any sizable amount. I don't know that. 9 Q. Let me just finish up on this topic. 10 You told us that it was your belief 11 that the pelletized Calidria was less dusty than 12 nonpelletized asbestos? 13 A. Yes . 14 Q. O.K. What I would like to do is 15 you a couple of questions about the use of the 16 pelletized asbestos. 17 First of all, was it less dusty when 18 it was shipped? 19 MR. GERSON: Comparing it generally 20 to nonpelletized? 21 MR. BROWNSON: Right, nonpelletized 22 asbestos. 23 Q. As far as you recall, was it less 24 dusty during shipping than nonpelletized asbestos' 25 A. Yes. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018995 1 Rhodes 90 2 Q. Why was that? 3 A. The amount of -- there were always 4 some broken pellets around. But there just wasn't 5 enough -- as much loose asbestos that could get 6 loose. And if it got loose, it would be pellets. 7 Q. And as you recall, during shipping, 8 both pelletized and nonpelletized, Calidria 9 pelletized and nonpelletized asbestos from your 10 competitors and even from Calidria, were shipped 11 in bags? . 12 A. Yes. As far as I know, Calidria was. 13 I am not real sure what the other competitors' 14 was . 15 Q. Were you aware back in those years, 16 after '67, up through '81, that during shipping 17 bags could break open? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Are you telling us that in instances 20 where bags would break open, the pelletized 21 Calidria would be less dusty than the 22 nonpelletized types of asbestos? 23 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes. 24 Q. What would happen when the bag would 25 break open? Pellets would fall out instead of DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018996 1 Rhodes 91 2 loose asbestos? 3 A. Yes . 4 Q. Is it also your view that the , 5 pelletized asbestos was less dusty when, dumped out 6 of bags at the customer's plant -- 7 A. Yes . 8 Q. -- than nonpelletized? 9 A. Yes . 10 Q. Was that your view back from '67 to 11 '.81? 12 A. Yes. . 13 Q. Did you have any view during those 14 years, '67 to '81, that the pelletized asbestos 15 was less dusty in finishing processes in 16 customers' plants once it had been dumped into the 17 mix? 18 A. What do you mean by "finishing 19 processes " ? 20 MR. GERSON: I was going to ask him 21 that 22 MR. WILL: You mean incorporated 23 intci the'product? 24 .- MR. BROWNSON: Let me do this: 25 I will use the Conwed plant as an DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018997 1 Rhodes 92 2 example. 3 BY MR. BROWNSON: 4 Q. First of all, do you have any 5 understanding as to how the Calidria asbestos was 6 used in the Conwed ceiling tile in terms of the 7 process, where it was introduced into the process 8 and how it was used? 9 A. I have some vagueunderstanding. But 10 I have never been there. 11 Q. And did you understand that the 12 Calidria was dumped into a slurry, a mixer? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Have you ever heard the term 15 "hydropulper"? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Did you understand that in the 18 ceiling tile process, the Calidria pelletized 19 asbestos would be dumped into a slurry and a 20 hydropulper and mixed up with other ingredients? 21 A. Yes . 22 Q. Did you also understand that once 23 that was done, this wet slurry would be conveyed 24 along and put through a drier? 25 A. As of yesterday, when I went over the DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018998 1 Rhodes 93 2 process. 3 But I really had no familiarity with 4 how you make ceiling tile. 5 Q. Assuming that Calidria pelletized 6 asbestos was used in the Conwed ceiling tile 7 process, once that ceiling tile was dried and cut 8 and sanded and otherwise processed, do you have 9 any view as to whether the pelletized form of the 10 asbestos would be less dusty than if they had used 11 nonpelletized asbestos? ' 12 A. Nonpelletized Calidria asbestos? 13 Q. Nonpelletized asbestos of any kind. 14 A. Speaking first of Calidria asbestos, 15 the hydropulper will open it, disperse it. And 16 Calidria was used because, from what I read, it 17 improved starch retention, which meant that it had 18 more starch on it than you might suspect from 19 another asbestos. On that basis, I would 20 hypothesize that it would still be better bound to 21 get less of it out, break less of it loose, than 22 an asbestos that was not as well tied up in 23 starch. 24 MR. GSRSON: You say "less loose." 25 Is that the same thing as less dusty? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00018999  1 Rhodes 94 2 THE WITNESS: Less dusty, yes. 3 Q. Do you have any data which would 4 indicate whether that is true or not? 5 A. No. 6 You asked my opinion. 7 Q. Right. 8 MR. WILL: After the hydropulper, if 9 it was all Calidria, it wouldn't make any 10 ' dif rence; is that right? 11 THE WITNESS: It should not make any 12 dif 13 Q. Whether it was pelletized or not? 14 A. Pelletized or not. IS Assuming the hydropulper did a good 16 opening jo if you understand my term. 17 Q. Broke up the pellets? 18 A. Broke up the pellets into the fibers, 19 yes . 20 21 MR. WILL: At that point, either form of Calidria would be equivalent? 22 THE WITNESS: Would be equivalent, 23 yes . 24 Q. In terms of 25 A. In terms of DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019000 1 Rhodes 95 2 MR. BROWNSON: A couple of more 3 questions, to follow up, and we can break. 4 Q. You are hypothesizing that the 5 Calidria might be less dusty than other types of 6 asbestos because you think it might retain starch 7 better? 8 MR. GERSON: He was just stating his 9 opinion. 1 don't think he was 10 hypothesizing. 11 . A. Yes. Basically, that's correct. 12 Q. Where did you get that information, 13 that it would retain more - - 14 A. From the call reports and the 15 information on the Conwed file. 16 I understand there was some 17 discussion, disagreement, within Conwed, about 18 what the conditions were. 19 Q. But you have no actual information of 20 your own research or from seeing data as to how 21 well different types of asbestos retained starch? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. And from the call reports or other 24 information that you have seen, do you know why 25 Conwed made the decision to switch from amosite DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019001 1 Rhodes 96 2 asbestos to Calidria asbestos? 3 A. The call reports said starch 4 retention, and I think there was mention of better 5 sag. Whether these two are connected -- I would 6 suspect those two might be connected. But my 7 information comes entirely from the Conwed call 8 reports. 9 MR. BROWNSON: Why don't we take our 10 break now. 11 . (Luncheon recess: 12-:25 p.m.) 12 13 14 15 oOo 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019002 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 97 AFTERNOON SESSION 1:30 P.M. HARRISON B. RHODES, previously sworn, resumed: MR. BROWNSON: Let's premark these documents, Exhibits 2 through 6. (Various documents were marked as Plaintiff's Exhibits 2 through 6, inclusive, for identification, as of this date) MR. BROWNSON: Back on the record. EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. BROWNSON: Q. Dr. Rhodes, let me ask you some more questions. Do you know Robert Woolery? A. Yes . Q. Did you do any work with him in connection w ith the Calidria asbestos? A. What do you mean by "with"? Q. Did you ever participate in any of his research projects? A. No . DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019003 1 Rhodes 98 2 Q. Are you familiar with a paper that 3 Dr. Woolery wrote called "Asbestos in the 4 Papermaking Process"? 5 A. I recall it, yes. 6 Q. Is that something you used in your 7 work or just something that you came to hear 8 about? 9 A. I think I probably read it. But that 10 was it. 11 Q. Do you know Dr. Fred Mumpton? 12 A. Yes . 13 Q. Did you work with Dr. Mumpton in 14 connection with the Calidria asbestos business? 15 A. No . 16 Q. Did you ever consult with Dr. Mumpton 17 in terms of analyticaltechniques for analyzing 18 asbestos samples? 19 A. I have no recollection of it. 20 Q. Now, Union Carbide's lawyers have 21 provided to us and I have reviewed many asbestos 22 air sampl es taken by various Union Carbide 23 personnel , both in customer plants and in Union 24 Carbide f acilities. We are going to look at some 25 of those. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019004 1 Rhodes 99 2 But before we start, as a general 3 matter, as I have looked at all these, I have 4 noticed that they all are reported using the 5 analytical technique of polarized microscopy? 6 A. No, phase contrast microscopy. 7 Q. Would I be correct in stating the air 8 measurement taken by Union Carbide personnel, both 9 in the customer plants and Union Carbide 10 facilities, were used, were done, with phase 11 contrast microscopy? 12 A. Yes. . 13 Q. Do you recall, at any time from '67 14 to '81, whether you did any research or inquiry 15 into using electron microscopy to analyze these 16 samples? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Do you have anyrecollection of 19 speaking to Fred Mumpton about the use of 20 electromicroscopy to analyze asbestos samples? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Do you recallanytime inthose years, 23 from '67 to '81; hearing that OSHA, NIOSH or the 24 ACGIH was considering changing their analytical 25 techniques for asbestos measurements from phase DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019005 % Rhodes 100 2 contrast 3 A. 4 Q. 5 from '67 6 electromi 7 A. 8 Q. 9 the corpo 10 A. 11 Q. 12 A. No Were you aware if Union Carbide, in Lon, had an electron microscope? Yes . Where was that? The only one I know of was in Niagara 13 Falls. 14 Q 15 A. 16 Q. 17 transmiss 18 electromi Do you know what kind it was? What make? Well, do you know if it was a 19 A. 20 was a transmission scope. 21 Q. Do you know when Union Carbide 22 obtained that electron microscope? 23 A. NoL 24 Q. As far as you know, was that ever 25 used to analyze any asbestos air samples from any DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019006 1 Rhodes 101 2 source? 3 A. Not that I am aware of. 4 Q. I also noticed, in reviewing the 5 asbestos air samples that have been provided to us 6 from both the customer plants and from Union 7 Carbide facilities, that the fibers reported are 8 only fibers greater than five microns in length; 9 is that correct? 10 A. That's correct. 11 . Q. Do you know why they were reported 12 that way? 13 ' A. That was the OSHAstandard for 14 reporting them. IS Q. Would it be fair, then, to say that 16 Union Carbide looked to the OSHA standard in terms 17 of deciding what should be measured? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. I think we covered thisbefore, but, 20 as far as you can recall, none of these air 21 measurements at customer plants were done before 22 OSHA; were they? 23 A. The OSHA I am going hazy on this. 24 I think the OSHA emergency .standard in December 25 1971 preceded them. I think. It was right in DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019007 * 1 Rhodes 102 2 that time frame. 3 Q. Let me ask you this: 4 With respect to the air measurements 5 done at the King City mine and mill, I understand 6 those had been done going back to about 1963? 7 A. To whenever the inception was. I do 8 not know exactly when that was. 9 Q. And when you took over this new job, 10 in '67, did you obtain copies of the air 11 measurements from the King City mine and mill 12 before that time? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Do you know where those were kept? 15 A. No. 16 Not kept at Niagara Falls. 17 Q. From '67 until about 1971, as far as 18 you know, air measurements continued to be done 19 out of King City, at the mine and mill? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you know where those were kept 22 during that time period? 23 A. Kept at KingCity. 24 Q. Did you ever go back and review the 25 pre-1967 air measurements from the King City DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019008 1 Rhodes 103 2 facility? 3 A. No. 4 Q. So do you have any information as to 5 what air levels were found before 1967 in the King 6 City mine and mill? 7 A. Only in very general terms. 8 Q. How did you get that information? 9 A. Talking to the people at King City. 10 Q. What did you learn about those air 11 levels from the time period before 1967? 12 A. That, by and large, the -- other than 13 the baggers, they were half to one, something in 14 that general range. The baggers, in isolated 15 areas, could be up to three, four and five range. 16 They were equipped with respirators. 17 Q. When you said the half to one range, 18 you meant half a fiber? 19 A. Yes. Fibers per cc weighted in five 20 microns 21 Q. And were those eight-hour 22 time-weighted averages ? 23 A. Yes . ' 24 Q. You understand that the actual 25 measurements taken at King City before '67 were DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019009 1 Rhodes 104 2 air samples of less than eight hours in duration? 3 A. No. 4 Q. O.K. Would youexpect that those air 5 samples done before '67 were an air sampling for 6 less than eight hours? 7 A. I am sorry, would yourepeat. 8 Q. ' Yes. 9 Based upon what you learned and what 10 you know now, would you expect that the air . 11 samples done at King City before '67 had a 12 sampling time of less than eight hours? 13 MR. WILL: Once again, I mean, this 14 is sort of a silly question. Either it 15 says on there or it doesn't say on there 16 how long they were. 17 Why are you asking him to guess 18 whether or not it was longer? 19 MR. BROWNSON: Actually, I don't 20 have those pre-1967 ones. That is why I am 21 asking. 22 A. I would expect, although the original 23 samples were less than eight hours, that they 24 would total seven or eight hours for the time that 25 the men were actually in the plant. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019010 1 Rhodes 105 2 I don't know that, but I would expect 3 that they would sample that way. 4 Q. First of all, how often were the air 5 samplings done in King City during those years? 6 MR. WILL: '66 'through '67? 7 MR. BROWNSON: Right. 8 A. I don't know. 9 Q- Was this done annually? 10 A. My vague recollection is it was a 11 couple of times a year. 12 Q Let's take as an example air sampling 13 done around the baggers. In those years, from '63 14 to '67, let's say, for example, Union Carbide was IS sampling twice a year near where the baggers were 16 working. 17 Are you saying that on each of those 18 occasions when they would sample, they would run 19 their pump for eight hours? 20 A. I just don't know. 21 Q. Well, if you look at the more recent 22 air samples -- we have got some of them here - 23 after 1971, most of them are of relatively short 24 duration, half hour, that sort of thing; is that 25 your recollection? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019011 1 Rhodes 106 2 MR. WILL: Why don't you look at one 3 of them. 4 MR. BROWNSON: You can look at some 5 of the exhibits down through the bottom. 6 MR. WILL: Let's identify for the 7 record what you are looking at. 8 THE WITNESS: This is Exhibit 4. 9 A. These are listed as ceiling counts 10 performed at the Niagara Falls laboratories on 11 short-term samples at King City. 12 This particular - 13 MR. WILL: The date is May 10, 1978. 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. 15 A. These particular samples were aimed 16 at getting ceiling samples on the baggers. So 17 that they would not be run for eight hours. They 18 would be run only the time period when the baggers 19 were physically bagging. 20 BY MR. BROWNSON: 21 Q. Now let's use these samples you are 22 looking at, which you have identified as Exhibit 23 4, as contained in Exhibit 4. This is the report 24 of May 10, 1978. ' 25 What you are telling us is that DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019012 1 Rhodes 107 2 actual sampling was for a period ranging from 49 3 to about 72 minutes, usually about an hour; does 4 that sound right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. But then the results are reported - 7 and I am looking at page number 3 -- the results 8 are reported as chrysotile asbestos. 9 Do you see that? 10 A. Yes . Q11 And a figure is then given there. I 12 am looking at the first results; for example. page 13 3 , 3.4. 14 Do you see that? 15 A. Yes . 16 Q. Now, I assume that reference to 17 fibers per cubic centimeter of air -- 18 A. Yes . 19 Q. -- those are fibers greater than f ive 20 microns in length? 21 A. That is the way the column is headed. 22 Q. Is that an eight-hour time-weighted 23 average? 24 A. No. That is a ceiling for that time 25 period. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019013 1 Rhodes 108 2 Q. So that is based upon 60 minutes of 3 sampling? 4 A. On that one, yes. 5 Q. During the time Union Carbide 6 measured asbestos levels in the air at either its 7 own facilities or at customer facilities, do you 8 know if any measurements were made of fibers less 9 than five microns in length? 10 A. I do not know of any measurements 11 less than five microns. 12 Q. You said that the measurement length 13 of five microns was chosen because that is the 14 OSHA standard? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. But in terms of those measurements 17 that were done at King'City before OSHA, from '63 18 to about '71, '72, would you agree.with me that 19 those were also measured and reported only as 20 fibers greater than five microns in length? 21 A. I don't know. I have not looked at 22 those reports. 23 Q. Do you know if those reports exist? 24 A. I do not know if they exist. 25 Q. So, as far as you know, those reports DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019014 1 Rhodes 109 2 may or may not have measured fibers less than five 3 microns in length? 4 A. As far as I know. I do not know 5 whether that is so. 6 Q. You don't know one way or another? 7 A. I don't know one way or another. 8 Q. You are aware of the fact, of course, 9 that in terms of physical size, Calidria asbestos 10 fiber is mostly less than five microns in length? 11 A. By fiber number or by weight? 12 Q. By fiber number. 13 A. The number of fibers smaller than 14 five is considerably more than the number of 15 fibers larger. 16 Q. Have you seen size distribution 17 measurements or data for Calidria asbestos fiber 18 that shows, on a percentage basis, how many fibers 19 are of different sizes of lengths? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. As you sit here today, can you recall 22 what that data showed? 23 A. The only thing I can recall is that 24 there were a fairly substantial percentage by 25 weight that were not only longer than five microns DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019015 * 1 Rhodes 110 2 but much longer. 3 Q. Well, in terms of number of fibers, 4 do you recall what the percentages were that were 5 greater than five microns? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Would you agree with me that, 8 measuring by weight, a greater percentage were 9 greater than five microns in length than if you 10 just measure by total number? 11 A. To the best of my recollection, I 12 can't say more, but a very substantial percentage 13 were using larger fibers. 14 Q. That is because larger fibers are 15 heavier? 16 A. Bigger and heavier. 17 Q. Now, do you know what the unit - 18 let's go again - 19 A. Are we done with this exhibit? 20 Q. You can look at it if you want to. 21 We will get back to it. 22 But using the phase contrast 23 microscope technique, do you know what the limit 24 of detection was for fiber diameter? In other 25 words, what is the thinnest fiber that could be DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019016 1 Rhodes Ill 2 detected with that technique? 3 A. That is a function of the microscope 4 and the observer's eyeball. And if some were to 5 go to a quarter of a micron, I think, that is the 6 best recollection I have. 7 Q. Do you have any recollection as to 8 how much could be detected by the microscopes used 9 in the laboratory at Niagara Falls? 10 You said it is a function of the 11 instrument. But let me ask you about the 12 particular instrument that you had in Niagara 13 Falls. Do you know what their limit was for fiber 14 diameter? 15 A. I do not know specifically. 16 Q. O.K. Going back to the air 17 measurements taken at the King City mine and mill 18 over the years -- I am asking you to rely on your 19 recollection here -- do you have a recollection 20 that the highest levels that were detected were 21 generally found around the baggers? 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. To'get ourselves acquainted with the 24 operation, have you been to the mill at King City? 25 A. Yes. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019017 1 Rhodes 112 2 Q. Physically, where would the baggers 3 be located in that process in the mill? 4 A. One setup was towards the south 5 front, and the 244 baggers'1 setup was west, about 6 the middle of the mill. 7 Q. Was the bagging the final step in the 8 milling process? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. In other words, the pellets were now 11 coming off and they were being put in bags. 12 Was that physically going on? 13 ' A. Yes . 14 Q. The pellets that were being bagged. 15 were they wet or dry? 16 A. Dry. 17 Q. And were there any other dry 18 processes in the mill, other than the bagging? 19 A. The drying opening. There was going 20 to be an open part around the mill and then into 21 the bag. 22 Q. In terms of the pelletized asbestos, 23 were there any other dry processes in the mill, 24 other than the bagging? 25 A. The drying. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019018 1 Rhodes 113 2 Q. They were sent to the drier? 3 A. Yes, sent through a rotary drier. 4 Q. Was the drier enclosed? 5 A. It was enclosed enough so that you 6 didn't get emissions out into the atmosphere in 7 any significant amount. 8 Q. Did it have some ducts put on it that 9 would pull dust out of it, or was it just an 10 enclosed drier? 11 MR. WILL: What time are you asking? 12 A. What time frame are we talking about? 13 Q. Did that change over time? 14 A. I - - to the best of my recollection, 15 it was -- it had very little leakage. It had an 16 air sweep through it and it was filtered. 17 But as environmental regulations 18 became more severe in California, up into the 19 '80s, I think they did add some additional control 20 on that. I am not sure. 21 Q. After the pellets came out of the 22 drier, how were they physically conveyed to the 23 bagging area? 24 A. I am not sure. They went into a 25 hopper. ` DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019019 1 Rhodes 114 2 Q. Do you know whether there were any 3 air measurements taken of operations between the 4 drier and the bagging area? 5 MR. WILL: You mean in the 6 transportation area? There aren't any 7 operations between these two areas to talk 8 about. 9 MR. BROWNSON: I guess that is what 10 my prior question went to. 11 Q. In other words, the pellets come out 12 of the drier and then at some point they get put 13 in bags? 14 A. They get conveyed into a hopper and 15 then down into a bagger area. 16 Q. So would it be fair to say that the 17 first operation after the drier where air 18 measurements were done on a routine basis was the 19 bagging area? 20 A. No, it would not be fair. 21 Q. Where else was it done between the 22 drier and the bag? 23 A. Various people working in the plants, 24 other than the baggers, had routine air monitoring 25 done on them. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019020 1 Rhodes 115 2 Q. Were those people engaged in some 3 operation between the driers and the baggers? 4 A. Yes. Driers and baggers. They would 5 be passing through the area, going about their 6 duties, running the extruder, running a filter 7 presser. This was a mill. And there were 8 screens, there were wet drying equipment, these 9 sorts of things, that people had to operate. 10 Q. I understand that. 11 Let me ask you this question: 12 This was what is known as a wet 13 process - - 14 A. Yes . 15 Q- -- in this mill; correct? 16 A. Yes . 17 Q. The Calidria asbestos would come in 18 in a wet slurry form? 19 A. Yes . 20 Q. And it would be milled in a wet form? 21 A. Yes . 22 Q. After the milling, it then would be 23 pelletized and dried or dried and pelletized? 24 A. It would be pelletized and dried. 25 Q. O.K. And after it was dried, it then DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019021 1 Rhodes 116 2 would be bagged? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And it was during the bagging 5 operation or in the bagging area that the highest 6 air levels were reported, generally, over time, in 7 the mill? 8 A- Yes. 9 Q. And after the material was bagged, as 10 I understand, the bags were then put on pallets; 11 is that correct? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. Was that done in the mill or outside? 14 A. That would be stacked in the mill and 15 then moved to cover in outside storage. 16 Q. Those pallets, as I understand, were 17 placed on railroad cars for shipment? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And do you know if any air 20 measurements were taken at or near the railroad 21 cars as the pallets were bagged and loaded? 22 A. I don't know for a fact that they 23 were. ' 24 Q. I had shown you a little while ago 25 and you have had a chance to look at a couple of DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019022 1 Rhodes 117 2 exhibits which have been premarked Exhibits 2 and 3 3. 4 5 MR. BROWNSON: Exhibit 2 -- for the record, these were reports which were 6 included in the reports produced by Union 7 Carbide in this case. 8 Q. Exhibit 2 is marked "UCC plenum test 9 10903 dust count. King City, California," May 12th 10 and July 26th, 1982. 11 Do you see that? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Before I showed you these today, had 14 you ever seen these before? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Do you know if any tests of this sort 17 were ever run before 1982? 18 A. All I remember is that Blair Engels 19 and I at one time messed around with it a little 20 bit and gave it up as a dead end. 21 Q. When you say you and Blair Engels 22 "messed around with it," you attempted to do tests 23 of the type we see here? 24 A. In general, yes. 25 Q. Do you recall when you attempted to DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019023 1 Rhodes 118 2 do such a test? 3 A. I don't recall. 4 Q. Do you know if it was before '81? 5 A. It would be before '81. 6 Q. Sometime between '67 and '81? 7 A. Yes. More towards '81 than '67. 8 Q. Do you recall what the tests were 9 that you considered doing or attempted to do? 10 A. We were looking for an easy way to 11 compare dust containment potentials. 12 Q. And that would be of the Calidria 13 fiber? 14 A. That would be Calidria products. 15 Q. If you look at Exhibit 2 here, the 16 test that was done in 1982 - - I am looking at the 17 first page of the report -- it shows -- and I am 18 paraphrasing - - where a closed chamber was 19 prepared and some asbestos dust from the ceiling 2 0 materials was placed on a pan vibrator and stirred 21 up in the chamber, and then air samples were 22 taken. 23 Is that your understanding of 24 generally what was done? 25 A. Yes. DOYLE REPORTING,INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019024 1 Rhodes 119 2 Q- Is this the same general sort of test 3 that you and Blair Engels considered some time 4 before 1981? 5 A. In very broad terms, yes. 6 Q. Did you ever actually set up any test 7 apparatus to do a test of this general type before 8 1981? 9 A. Nothing of any real significance. 10 Structure. We literally were just playing in the 11 laboratory to see if we could get something that 12 was worth pursuing. 13 Q. This was the laboratory where? 14 A. Niagara Falls. 15 Q. Do you remember, was the reason why 16 you were working at such a test before '81 to 17 determine how much dust would be generated from 18 Calidria asbestos fiber in an enclosed 19 experimental chamber? 20 A. No . 21 Q. What was the reason for it? 22 A. We were looking for a way to compare 23 rather than an absolute, how much dust we had in 24 there. 25 Q. Well, would it be fair to say that DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019025 1 Rhodes 120 2 what you were trying to do was stir up some dust 3 from Calidria fiber within an enclosed chamber and 4 measure the dust - - 5 A. Yes . 6 Q. -- and then compare it with 7 something? 8 A. With the dust from other Calidria 9 products. 10 . Q. What were the different types of 11 material you thought you would compare for 12 dustiness? 13 A. I don't recall. 14 Q- Do you recall if you used pellets in 15 any of these experiments that you did? 16 A. I don't recall. 17 Q. Do you recall if you got any actual 18 measurements from any of these experiments? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Do you recall if you proposed to do 21 these experiments before 1981 because you were 22 trying to determine if pelletized Calidria was 23 less dusty or more dusty than other types of 24 asbestos ? 25 A. No . ,DOYLE REPORTING INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019026 1 Rhodes 121 2 We already knew that. 3 Q. You believed it was less dusty? 4 A. That's correct. 5 This was a very minor, day-or-so type 6 of thing. 7 But you asked the question and I 8 answered it. 9 Q. So would it be fair to say that the 10 only laboratory test before 1981 to determine the 11 relative dustiness of Calidria asbestos was this 12 day-or-so thing that you and Mr. Engels were 13 playing around with? 14 A. That woulddescribe it. 15 MR. WILL: He wants to know if that 16 was the only one. Are you aware of any 17 others? 18 THE WITNESS: That was the only one 19 that I was aware of. 20 MR. BROWNSON: O.K. 21 BY MR. BROWNSON: 22 Q. And what we are seeing in Exhibits 2 23 and 3, which I have shown you, are laboratory 24 tests done in 1982; correct? 25 A. Yes. DOYLE REPORTING, INC.(212)867-8220 UCAREF00019027 1 Rhodes 122 2 Q. These were both done in Niagara 3 Falls; is that right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. You were not involved in either one 6 of them; is that correct? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. Do you know why it was that you would 9 not have been involved in either one of these? 10 A. At that time -- this is testing, I 11 believe,.in connection with reclamation at the 12 mill, and I should have been copied, as the 13 manager of occupational health, but was not. I do 14 not know why I was not copied. 15 Q. Let me refer you to Exhibit 4. 16 Exhibit 4 is, again, a copy of a test provided by 17 Union Carbide in this case. 18 It is titled "UCC Dust Count, King 19 City, California, 5/2/89." Right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. The actual report is dated May 10, 22 '78; correct? 23 A. Yes . 24 Q. It says: 25 "Subject: Airborne asbestos count DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019028 1 Rhodes 123 2 for Union Carbide Corporation in King City, 3 California." 4 Is that right? 5 A. Yes . 6 Q. These were samples done in the mill, 7 the Calidria asbestos mill? 8 A. Yes . 9 Q. Exhibit 4, the May 10, 1978 report 10 and test results, was this part of the or was this 11 one of the program of tests that were being done 12 out at King City and the mill? 13 A. No . 14 Q. What was this test? 15 A. This was a specific examination of a 16 fairly detailed look at the bagger - operation. 17 Q. In May 19-78, was a detailed work of 18 the bagger operation, the asbestos levels in that 19 operation, being done because that historically 20 had been the area where the highest dust levels 21 were gotten in the King City mill? ' 22 A. I don't recall why it was done 23 specifically. 24 Q. Do you know whose idea it was? 25 A. No. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019029 % 1 Rhodes 124 2 Q- Now, the report is addressed to Mr. 3 Shortridge <at Union Carbide metals division, King 4 City, California? 5 A. Yes. ' 6 Q. What was his role at that time? 7 A. He was plant manager. 8 Q. And the samples were collected out at 9 the King City mill, as I understand it? 10 A. Yes . 11 Q. And they were then sent to the 12 laboratory in Niagara Falls, New York? 13 A. They were carried to the laboratory 14 by the lady that collected them. 15 Q. And they were analyzed by Glenda 16 Spencer? 17 A. Yes . 18 Q. She was a microscopist? 19 A. She had the proper training to 20 collect and count samples. ' 21 Q. And she `then issued this report. 22 Exhibit 3 ; correct? 23 A. Yes . 24 Q. Then she sent a copy to a number of 25 people, including you -- DOYLE REPORTING, INC. {212)867-8220 UCAREF00019030 1 Rhodes 125 2 A. Yes . 3 Q. -- and a number of other people. 4 Can you just tell us who the other 5 people are and what their role was in getting a 6 copy? 7 A. Bill Thurber was the manager in New a York City of the whole asbestos operation. 9 Q. He was at the Union Carbide corporate 10 headquarters in New York City? 11 A. Yes . 12 McDaniel was the corporate industrial 13 hygienist under whose wing we were operating this. 14 John Meyers I believe at that time 15 was manager of marketing in King City -- or, I am 16 sorry, in Niagara Palls. 17 Byrne was marketing manager, area 18 marketing manager, Niagara Falls. 19 And Blair Engels was one of my group. 20 Q- And Meyers and Byrne - 21 A. Meyers was marketing manager and 22 Byrne reported to him. 23 Q. Both in marketing asbestos? 24 A. Yes . 25 Q. As marketing people, do you know why DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019031 % 1 Rhodes 126 2 they would be interested in the results of air 3 sampling at the King City mill? 4 A. This, what you see here, is basically 5 the main group, and we had some fairly standard 6 distributions. I don't see any reason that they 7 would not receive this. We were a very small 8 group, and we passed information around. 9 Q. That was Exhibit 4. Let's look at 10 Exhibit 5, another dust count, done March 15, '79, 11 at the mill in King City; is that correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And it isentitled, "Replicate 14 sampling tests of airborne fiber emissions at King 15 City, California"; right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What do they meanby "replicate"? 18 A. We took samples on each side of the 19 breathing zone, two samples simultaneously, one on 20 each side, and analyzed one set at King City and 21 one set at Niagara Falls. 22 Q. Was that done because by that time, 23 in 1979, it had'historically been noticed that 24 there was a difference, for whatever reason, in 25 the results that were gotten at King City compared DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019032 * 1 Rhodes 127 2 to Niagara Falls? 3 A. No. ' 4 Q. Are you aware of the fact that it was 5 noticed at some point in time that tests done at 6 King City were 3 to 4 percent different than those 7 done at Niagara Falls? 8 A.' 3 to 4 percent different would be 9 totally irrelevant. 10 Q. Are you aware of the fact that it was 11 noticed that the tests done at King City were 12 different than the tests on the same samples done 13 at Niagara Falls? 14 A. I don't recall that. 15 Q. You don't recall ever preparing memos 16 or letters about that? 17 A. Air samples you are talking about? 18 Q. Right. " 19 A. It's possible, but I don't recall it. 20 Q. Let's look at this particular 21 exhibit, and I am looking at the first page. In 22 the third paragraph it says, it reads: 23 "Comparisons of the fiber counts 24 performed by the two labs are shown in table 1. 25 Niagara Falls fiber counts of main bagging and DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019033 1 Rhodes 128 2 personnel tended to be, with fewer exceptions, 40 3 to 60 percent higher than the corresponding King 4 City baggers." 5 Do you know what Mr. Engels is 6 talking about there when he makes that statement? 7 A. Yes. ' 8 Q. What is that? 9 A. Well, what he is saying is, when you 10 put them side by side, the ones counted at Niagara 11 Falls were 40 to 60 percent higher than those at 12 King City. 13 Q- Do you know why that is? 14 A. There is an explanation on the next 15 page. The re is a reason for that. 16 Q- O.K. As reported by Mr. Engels? 17 A. As reported by Mr. Engels. 18 Q- What explanation does he give? 19 A. Basically, they switched -- they 20 calibrated the pump with a 25-millimeter filter, 21 and somewhere partway through they switched to a 22 37-millimeter and they didn't recalibrate the pump 23 for the resistance of the 37-millimeter filter, so 24 that they got additional air flow, resulting in 25 higher loading on the filter, on the larger DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019034 1 Rhodes 129 2 filter. 3 Q. That was because they had not 4 recalibrated the pump for the different air flow? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. The final paragraph: 7 "There was some variance between the 8 two labs in the test procedures, which he 9 attributed to microscopeequipment and 10 procedures." 11 Q. Do you see that? 12 A. I am looking at it again. Yes. I 13 see it. 14 Q. As you sit here today, do you recall 15 that there was historically some variance between 16 those two labs and their measurements? 17 A. I still don't recall any differences 18 that would cause great concern. 19 Q. You are aware of the fact that you 20 can get different results depending on who is 21 doing the measuring and what equipment is being 22 used? 23 A. Yes, I am well aware of that. 24 Q. And what is being reported here in 25 Exhibit 5 is an example of that, although one that DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019035 1 Rhodes 130 2 you say didn't cause great concern; is that 3 correct? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. Now, Exhibit 6 is the nextexhibit I 6 would like to have you look at. 7 A. The cover letter explains this, and I 8 don't have the cover letter here now. You have 9 the only copy of the cover letter. 10 Q. This isn't a cover letter. This is a 11 report from NIOSH. 12 A. That was relative to this. 13 Q. Exhibit 6 is entitled "King City 14 NIOSH samples dust count, January 25-27, 1983 "; 15 correct? 16 A. All I have is asbestos -- 17 Q. I am looking at thecover. 18 A. I am sorry. Yes. 19 Q. Do you recall this testing that was 20 done in connection with NIOSH in '83? 21 A. When I saw this, I remembered that it 22 was done, yes. 23 Q. And before I showed it to you today, 24 had you seen this before, in recent years, 25 anywhere? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019036 1 Rhodes 131 2 A. Not that I recall. 3 Q. In any event, having looked at it, it 4 brings back some recollection as to this 5 particular testing? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Justto summarize it, was this 8 particular test a test being done at the request 9 of NIOSH, to determine various fiber levels in the 10 King City mill? 11 A.. No. 12 Q. What was it? 13 A. The test wasprimarily -- I can't 14 remember whether it was the NIOSH that initiated 15 it or the manufacturer of the bagger and 16 ventilation system. 17 NIOSH was very much interested in 18 collecting the information on how controls worked. 19 And, again, I am not exactly sure who approached 20 us. I think it was probably NIOSH. I had some 21 fairly good friends at NIOSH at the t.ime. And 22 they asked us if we would cooperate in running 23 this test. And the answer was yes, obviously. 24 Q. You say that "the answer was yes, 25 obviously." DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019037 1 Rhodes 132 2 Do you recall having some concern at 3 Union Carbide about whether you should let NIOSH 4 run this test or not? 5 A. No. There was no concern. .6 Q. You actually recall that there was no ' 7 concern about that? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. In any event, was the test done by 10 NIOSH personnel or was it done by Union Carbide 11 personnel, the actual sampling? 12 A. The sampling was done -- does it show 1 13 on the cover letter who did the sampling? This is 8 14 a Union Carbide industrial hygiene summary, so it 15 was done by Union Carbide. Sample by Blair 16 Engels, I think. I can't make out the initials. 17 Q. Was that information then turned over 18 to NIOSH for whatever purpose they were going to 19 make of it? 20 A. Fred Smith. Yes. 21 Q. Did NIOSH ever issue a report 22 concerning what they - - 23 A. I have no recollection of receiving a , 24 report. I should have, if they had sent one. 25 MR. WILL: Should have remembered it DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019038 1 Rhodes 133 2 or should have received it? 3 THE WITNESS: Should have received 4 it. If I received it, I would probably 5 recall it. 6 Q. If you want to take a break at any 7 time, let me know. 8 A. Yes. 9 (Recess taken) 10 MR. BROWNSON: Let's premark 11 Plaintiff's Exhibits 7 through 16 for 12 identification. .- 13 (Various documents were marked as 14 Plaintiff's Exhibits 7 through 16, 15 inclusive, for identification, as of this 16 date) 17 MR. BROWNSON: Can we have an 18 agreement that documents produced by Union 19 Carbide in this case are authentic and you 20 will not object to their authenticity? 21 MR. WILL: We said dust counts for 22 the King City plants or for customer plants 23 that we produced in this case we will agree 24 are authentic Union Carbide documents, 25 assuming what you have produced is a true DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019039 1 Rhodes 134 2 copy of them. 3 MR. BROWNSON: I don't need to 4 authenticate those documents through Dr. 5 Rhodes, the dust counts? If we at trial 6 introduce them as evidence, whatever 7 objections you may have on other grounds, 8 you won't dispute that they are authentic 9 and there is an adequate foundation for me 10 to establish authenticity? 11 MR. WILL: The documents that were 12 produced in this case, that's correct. 13 MR. BROWNSON: O.K. 14 BY MR. BROWNSON: 15 Q. Dr. Rhodes, from about '71 to '81, 16 Union Carbide technicians were going out to a 17 number of different customer plants, doing these 18 dust counts that we have talked about this 19 morning; correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Wereyou the person in general charge 22 of that program? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Did you generally keep yourself 25 abreast of what Union Carbide technicians were DOYLE REPORTING, INC. {212)867-8220 UCAREF00019040 1 Rhodes 135 2 finding at customer plants? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Was this data tabulated or summarized 5 or correlated - - 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. - - or - 8 MR. WILL: Let him finish. 9 THE WITNESS: I am sorry. I thought 10 he was finished. 11 . MR.BROWNSON: O.K. I am finished. 12 A. Yes. 13 BY MR. BROWNSON: 14 Q. Did Union Carbide attempt to draw any 15 general conclusions from the data? 16 MR. GERSON: I object to the form. 17 A. Union Carbide did assemble the data 18 by application, by the application, by type of 19 asbestos operation, as something to something. 20 And we summarized it and prepared summaries for 21 potential customers. 22 Q. Do you know whenthis summarization 23 of the data that was prepared by Union Carbide 24 occurred? . 25 A. No. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREFOO019041 1 Rhodes 136 2 Q. Do you know if the summaries of the 3 data from dust counts at different customer plants 4 were also provided to existing Union Carbide 5 customers, or was that just given to prospective 6 new customers? 7 A. I don't recall. We may have done 8 that. 9 Q. Do you recall if the summarization of 10 the data of these air tests at customer locations 11 was ever .used by Union Carbide in connection with 12 any government regulatory proceedings? 13 A. I don't know of any case that it was. 14 Q. I want to show you what has been 15 marked as the next exhibit. This is Exhibit 7. 16 What it is is a collection of letters that have 17 been provided to us by Union Carbide, all in 1985. 18 I will just have you take a look at 19 them, familiarize yourself with them, and then I 20 will ask you some questions about them. 21 (Pause in the proceedings) 22 Q. Exhibit 7 is actually clipped 23 together, 21 different letters sent out to 24 different people, all of whom appear to be - 25 first of all, you have had a chance to look at DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019042 1 Rhodes 137 2 those generally and familiarize yourself with what 3 they are? 4' MR. WILL: He has had a chance to 5 glance at them. Do you want him to read 6 every single one in its entirety or just 7 accept your representation? 8 Q. Do you recognize those letters? 9 A. Yes . 10 Q. And generally, do you know what they 11 are? 12 A. Yes . 13 Q. What are they? How would you 14 describe them? 15 A. These are all people who are bagger 16 operators whose exposure exceeded two fibers; 17 eight-hour time, exceeded two fibers. 18 And under regulations. Title 8 19 Section 5208, subparagraph A, "Employee 20 Notification," these are -- we were required to 21 notify them of the certain time period that they 22 had been overexposed and what we are going to do 23 about it. 24 Q. 25 A. Now - May I add? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019043 1 Rhodes 13 8 2 Overexposed without - - if they were 3 not using the respirator, they would have been 4 overexposed. 5 They were all wearing respirators and 6 the proper protective clothing, changes, that sort 7 of thing. 8 Q. What Exhibit 7 shows, if I can 9 summarize, is a collection of letters sent to 10 different people who worked in the -bagging 11 operations at the mill and is basically notifying 12 them under the California OSHA law, the OSHA 13 standard in effect at that time, that exposure 14 exceeded the standard if they weren't wearing 15 respiratory protection. 16 Is that a fair summarization? 17 > A. That is not what the letter says. 18 The letter was sent because we were 19 required to. It notifies them that they were - 20 the exposure was over two fibers per cc. 21 Q. Which was the California OSHA 22 standard at the time? 23 A. Yes. 24 "During the time of exposure, you 25 were using an improved respirator," M-E-S-A - DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019044 1 Rhodes 139 2 that is not right. 3 Q. Should be M-E-S-H-A? 4 A. I am drawing a blank. But that is 5 not the right word. 6 NIOSH number 2C-21C-170. And it 7 tells what we are doing about it, as required by 8 law . 9 Q. Would it be fair to say that in 1984 10 and '85, the California OSHA regulation requires 11 you to send out a letter like this to employees 12 where testing air monitoring revealed that those 13 employees were exposed to more than two fibers per 14 cc of the substance? 15 A. I do not recall exactly when the 16 California OSHA -- there may have been some 17 revisions in California OSHA. I don't know when 18 they occurred. I don't know how far back this 19 started. . 20 But I would be sure we were sending 21 them out whenever it was required. 22 Q. Well, whenever it started, by '84 and 23 '85 - - 24 A. I am sorry, '84, yes. 25 Q. -- by '84 and '85, the California DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019045 140 2 OSHA required that the letter be sent out? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And what Exhibit 7 shows, just to 5 summarize, is a collection of 21 such letters that 6 were sent out - - 7 A. Yes . 8 Q. -- to bagging employees. 9 Now, the letters were actually sent 10 by whom? Who is the person? E. J. Garcia. 11 . A. Safety and health supervisor. 12 Q. Actually, I guess they were sent by 13 different people. Some were Garcia; some were Mr. 14 Cronkite. 15 A. Safety engineer. 16 Q. Now, if we look at the letters sent 17 to employees, some are on Calidria Corporation 18 letterhead and some Union Carbide Corporation 19 letterhead. 20 Do you know why that was? 21 A. I don't know. I don't know. I 22 haven't the vaguest idea. 23 Q. Do you remember there actually being 24 a company called Calidria Corporation? 25 A. Not in that time frame. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019046 1 Rhodes 141 2 Q. Do you remember there being a company 3 by that name at any time frame? 4 A. No. 5 Q. In any event, all of the letters in 6 Exhibit 7 show that copies were received by a 7 number of people, including you; correct? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. Can you just describe for us -- go 10 down that list and tell me who those other people 11 are and what their role was? 12 A. Most of them -- DeLeon, I am drawing 13 a blank. He may have been at King City. 14 Jack Frost was at Grand Junction, 15 Colorado, in what was basically the main office at 16 that time. 17 Q. Main office of what? 18 A. Of -- in '84 -- let me retract that. 19 The main people other than those who 20 were in Danbury at this time, in the asbestos 21 operation -- or in the metals operation, I am 22 sorry -- were gathered at King City -- I am sorry, 23 at Grand Junction. It was a major office. 24 And Jack Frost was one of the senior 25 people at that office. I don't really know why he DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019047 1 Rhodes 142 2 got a copy, because he was not that much involved 3 in the asbestos. 4 Marsten was one of the senior men at 5 the King City operation. 6 Q. Was he a Union Carbide employee? 7 A. These are all Union Carbide 8 employees. 9 Q. O.K. 10 A. Myers, I don't know where he was at 11 that point in time. X know who he is. 12 Ernie Piersall was corporate director 13 of safety. 14 Q. Where was he located? 15 A. In Grand Junction. 16 Ron Beethe was industrial hygienist 17 who worked for me in Grand Junction. 18 Jim Settlemoir was thetechnician 19 that did all the asbestos counting work in King 20 City. He was the lab man in King City for a long 21 t ime. 22 Bill Thurber was head man in the 23 asbestos projects located in, I believe, Danbury 24 at this time. 25 And Usrey was a shifter, shift DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019048 1 Rhodes 143 2 leader, at King City. 3 Q. Do you know if Union Carbide ever 4 communicated to customers what the air levels of 5 asbestos were in the bagging area of the King City 6 mill? > 7 MR . GERSON: Ever, to any customer? 8 MR . BROWNSON: To customers of 9 Calidria. 10 MR. GERSON: Any customer? 11 MR. BROWNSON: Right. 12 A. I do not know if they ever discussed 13 it. 14 BY MR. BROWNSON: 15 Q. Do you recall any discussion at Union IS Carbide as to whether the air levels found in the 17 bagging area of the King City mill ought to be . 18 communicated to customers? 19 A. No . 20 Q. Do you remember any discussion in 21 Union Carbide as to whether the air level found at 22 King City mill had any relevance to what might be 23 going on in customer plants? 24 . A. No. 25 Q. Let me show you the next exhibit, DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019049 * 1 Rhodes 144 2 which is Exhibit 8, June 3, '75 letter to Dr. J. 3 J. Welsh, from Mr. Thurber, which shows a copy 4 sent to you. 5 My question when you are ready to 6 answer is: 7 Do you recognize that letter? 8 (Pause in the proceedings) 9 Q. Now that you have looked at the 10 - Exhibit 8, do you recall if you have ever seen ii 11 before? 12 A. I don't deny it, but I don't recall 13 it. 14 Q. As you sit here today, you don't 15 recall that? 16 A. I don't recall that particular 17 letter. 18 Q. First of all, do you know who Mr. W 19 C. Thurber i s? ' 20 A. Yes . 21 Q. What was his job at that time? 22 A. He was the head man in the asbestos 23 operation in the whole affair. 24 Q. And his office was where? 25 A. In 1975 it would have been in New DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019050 * 1 Rhodes 145 2 York City, on the next block. 3 Q. 270 Park Avenue, New York, New York? 4 A. Yes . 5 Q. And he is writing to Dr. J. J. Welsh 6 at the fourth floor. 7 Who was Dr. J. J. Welsh? 8 A. He was a medical -- I don't know 9 whether he was the head corporate medical doctor 10 or one of the top corporate medical doctors. 11 Q. Of Union Carbide Corporation? 12 A. Union Carbide Corporation. 13 Q. New York City? 14 A. New York City. 15 Q- And then he sent copies to Mr. Myers, 16 who is the man - 17 A. That I reported to basically. 18 Q. And to you? 19 A. Yes . 20 Q. Do you have any recollection as you 21 sit here today about information coming from 22 Europe, either in the 1960s or 1970s, about any 23 hazards that could be associated with the use of 24 Calidria asbestos? 25 A. At the time, in this time frame, I DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019051 1 Rhodes 146 2 have no recollection. 3 But I have been reminded that some - - 4 one of our people in Europe was saying that the 5 thing caused some questions. I can't recall his 6 name . 7 Q. When you say you have been reminded, 8 is that in connection with preparing for this 9 deposition? _ 10 A. One of the previous depositions. 11 Q.. In connection with some previous 12 deposition, you were shown some documents by Union 13 Carbide people in Europe? 14 A. I don't recall whether I was shown 15 them or it was discussed, what was, in general 16 terms, what he had been saying. 17 Q. Did you see a report by Sayers? 18 A. I don't remember seeing it, but it 19 was discussed. I may have seen it. 20 Q. That would be in connection with some 21 deposition in the past? 22 A. Three or four years. 23 Q. As long as we are on that topic, have 24 you given other depositions in cases where people, 25 plaintiffs, have been alleging some sort of DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019052 1 Rhodes 147 2 asbestos - related injury from exposure to Calidria 3 asbestos? 4 A. Yes . 5 Q. Was it in connection with one of 6 those depositions that you saw this or heard about 7 this material from England? 8 A. Yes . 9 Q- How many depositions have you given 10 in cases of that type? 11 A. Prior to this one, two. 12 Q. And which cases were those, do you 13 remember? 14 A. I can tell you the subject. 15 One was a drilling mud case in 16 Houston. 17 The other was an RG244 case in 18 Athens, Georgia. 19 Q. When you say "RG244," Calidria 20 asbestos fiber? 21 A. Yes . 22 Q. Was the case located in Athens, 23 Georgia, or that was where you gave the 24 deposition? 25 A. That was where I gave the deposition. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019053 1 Rhodes 148 2 Q. Do you remember that was a case 3 involving a man who worked at, I think, a Georgia 4 Pacific wallboard plant in Texas? 5 A. It was not - 6 Q. What was it? 7 A. - - not a lab 8 Salesman, basically, from Whittaker 9 Chemical. 10 Q. O.K. And the salesman was alleging 11 some sort of asbestos - related disease - 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. -- from being exposed toRG244? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Your deposition was taken, in 16 connection with that case, in Athens, Georgia? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What was your particular role in that 19 case? Were you being asked to be a witness by 20 Union Carbide? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Did you ever have any role in any 23 cases arising out of a plant in Quanah, Texas, 24 where some people were claiming they were exposed 25 to Calidria asbestos and got various diseases? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019054 * 1 Rhodes 149 2 A. NO. 3 Q. You mentioned a second case. 4 Was this the second case or was there 5 another one where you gave a deposition? 6 A. Onewas -- the first one was in 7 Beaumont, Texas, relative to asbestos. Drilling 8 mud. 9 Q. ' That deposition took place where, in 10 Beaumont? 11 A. Beaumont. 12 Q. The third deposition in connection 13 with asbestos lawsuits would be today? 14 A. Today. 15 Q. Just to cover this, it was in 16 connection with one of those prior two depositions 17 you told us about where you saw or heard about 18 this information from England? 19 A. Yes . 20 Q. Before you were shown that in 21 connection with one of those depositions, you had 22 not seen- that before, or was it something that you 23 saw and forgot?' 24 A. I had not seen it before. 25 Q. While you were working for Union DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019055 1 Rhodes 150 2 Carbide, had it ever come to your attention that 3 certain unions over in England or elsewhere in 4 Europe were raising doubts about handling Union 5 Carbide asbestos? 6 A. I don't know. 7 Q. Did you ever hear anything about dock 8 workers in England not wanting to unload it off 9 ships because they thought it might be dangerous? 10 A. That rings a very, very faint bell. 11 . Q. Do you know if that is information 12 that came to your attention while you were working 13 for Union Carbide or something you learned in 14 connection with these lawsuits? 15 A. It was not in connection with a 16 lawsuit. 17 Q. In any event, do you have any 18 recollection, back when you were working for Union 19 Carbide, of doing any work in connection with 20 asbestos health issues over in Europe? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Do you have any recollection, as you 23 sit here today,"that during the 1960s and 1970s, 24 you heard about various asbestos health research 25 that was going on in Europe? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. -(212) 867- 8220 UCAREF00019056 1 Rhodes 151 2 THE WITNESS: Could I have that 3 question. 4 (Question read) 5 A. Yes. 6 BY MR. BROWNSON: 7 Q. Do you recall where you got that 8 information? 9 A. By and large, either through the 10 AIANA or by seeing it in meetings, publications, 11 things of that nature. 12 I was not trying to read the 13 literature exhaustively but did, during that time 14 period, read articles that I came across and saw 15 independently. 16 Q. Back during the time period when you 17 worked for Union Carbide, beginning in '67, when 18 you were selling Calidria asbestos, if you had 19 questions or needed information concerning health 20 issues, would you direct those to the Union 21 Carbide medical department in New York or where 22 would you go for that? 23 A. I don't recall doing it. But if I 24 had done it, it would have been to the New York - 25 the medical people that were here in New York. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019057 1 Rhodes 152 2 Q. When you say "medical people in New 3 York," those would be at the Union Carbide medical 4 department? 5 A. I am sorry? 6 Q. Those would be at the Union Carbide 7 medical department? 8 A. Yes, corporate medical. 9 Q. Let me show you what has been marked 10 as Exhibit 9 and ask if you have ever seen that 11 before. I am showing you Exhibit 9. Is this 12 something you have seen before today? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. It is indicated that it is the 15 internal Union Carbide correspondence of February 16 12, 1976 - 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. -- from Mr. Thurber, at the office in 19 New York City - 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. -- and it is-directed to Mr. J. W. 22 Rawlings at the metals division, on the 30th 23 floor, at the same office, in New York City? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Who is he? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019058 1 Rhodes 153 2 A. He was the level up above Thurber. 3 I don't recall. 4 Q. He was on a higher floor in the 5 building? 6 A. 7 Q. 8 A. He was on a higher floor. And he was also higher? A higher official. Thurber reported 9 to him . 10 MR. GERSON: The two often go hand 11 in hand. 12 Q. A copy is indicated as being sent to 13 Mr. Kroft 14 Who is he? 15 A. He was the president of metals. IS Q. Metals division of Union Carbide? 17 A. Yes . 18 Q. It doesn't indicate that any copy of 19 it was actually sent to you at the time; does it? 20 A. No. 21 Q. So you do recall seeing this? 22 A. A copy went to John Myers. And I 23 have -- again, We were a small organization and 24 circulated things like this. 25 Q . Who are these other two people who DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)857-8220 UCAREF00019059 1 Rhodes 154 2 got copies? 3 A. R. L. Folkman -- and I am drawing a 4 blank. I think Folkman may"have been the division 5 president. 6 And Kroft a step above him. I just 7 don't recall. 8 Folkman reported to Kroft. 9 Q. Would it be fair to say that all of 10 these people, with the exception of Mr. Meyers, 11 who are shown getting a copy of this report, were 12 Union Carbide headquarters people in New York? 13 A. Senior headquarters people. 14 Q. Do you know who WCT is? 15 A. William C. Thurber. 16 Q. O.K. Do you know why Mr. Thurber was 17 giving this summary of the Calidria asbestos 18 business to the senior corporate Union Carbide 19 people at that time, in 1976? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Why was that? 22 A. Carbide was involved in 23 across - the - corporation strategic planning. And 24 this was our particular business. 25 Q. And when you say "strategic DOYLE REPORTING, INC. {212)867-8220 UCAREF00019060 1 Rhodes 155 2 planning," what does that mean, in practical 3 terms, with respect to what you were doing in 4 1976? 5 A. In practical terms, it just gave us 6 some information down the ladder on what the 7 thinking was and the direction and the planning 8 for the asbestos business. 9 In corporate terms, they were 10 reviewing all the businesses and deciding what to 11 do about them at that point in time. 12 Q. Was a decision made, after this 13 review, that Union Carbide ought to keep the 14 asbestos going at least for some period of time? 15 A. I was not party to what their 16 decision was. 17 Q. At least they did keep it going? 18 A. They did keep it, but they eventually 19 sold it. 20 Q. So, if we could summarize what is 21 going on here, in 1976, the Union Carbide 22 corporate headquarters people in New York were 23 reviewing all the different businesses that Union 24 Carbide owned, and this is a summary of the 25 Calidria asbestos business. ' DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019061 1 Rhodes 156 2 Is that fair to say? 3 A. That is a reasonable summary. 4 ' Q. You don't know the details of the 5 Union Carbide corporate decision, but you do know 6 that they decided to keep the asbestos business at 7 least until about 1985, at which point it was 8 sold? 9 MR. WILL: I will object. 10 He said they, in fact, kept it. He 11 doesn't know when a decision was made. 12 MR. BROWNSON: I understand. 13 MR. WILL: That is not the way you 14 phrased the question. 15 A. The fact that they kept it does not 16 mean that they decided to keep it. 17 BY MR. BROWNSON: 3 18 Q. Let me ask you this question: 19 Whatever the decision was. Union 20 Carbide corporation management did, in fact, keep 21 the asbestos business until about 1985 -- 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. --at which point it was sold? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And when it was sold, do you know to DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019062 1 Rhodes 157 2 whom it was sold? 3 A. Sold to a company', I believe the name 4 was Vermont Asbestos Group, VAG. 5 Q. Are you familiar with that company? 6 A. The only thing I knew about them or 7 know about them is they had an asbestos operation 8 in Vermont somewhere, which makes sense. And they 9 also had a -- had one in Copperopolis, California. 10 Q. At? 11 A. Your spelling is as good as mine. 12 Q. At some point after '85, we have been 13 told by Union Carbide, the asbestos operation came 14 to be owned by KCAC, King City Asbestos Company. 15 Have you ever heard of that company? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. That is the company that owns the 18 mine ? 19 A. I believe they are owned by VAG. VAG 20 just continued the King City Asbestos Corporation 21 name. For business continuity or for whatever 22 reason, they didn't change it. 23 Q. Have you done any work for the new 24 owners of the Calidria asbestos operation after 25 Union Carbide sold it? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019063 1 Rhodes 158 2 A. No. 3 Q. Have they ever consulted you or asked 4 you to do anything for them? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Next I would like to show you another 7 exhibit, which is Exhibit 10. 8 I will ask you if you have ever seen 9 that before. 10 A. In answer to one of your earlier 11 questions, we used the most efficient dust 12 collectors on a product. 13 Q. You are reading from a speech given 14 by Mr. Myers on the exhibit. 15 Let me ask you, before we get to 16 that, have you ever seen this particular document 17 before, Exhibit 10. 18 A. I don't remember, but I have 19 undoubtedly seen it. 20 Q. What do you mean? 21 A. I am on the distribution. 22 Q. A copy of it - - 23 A. Was sent to me, at least to look at. 24 Q. Look at a couple of things. 25 Basically, what this is is a text or DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019064 1 Rhodes 159 2 a script of a speech given by Mr. Myers to who? 3 Can you tell? 4 A. Made at the state cancer education 5 programs on June 13th in Los Angeles and June 18th 6 in San Jose. 7 Q. What year was that? 8 A. 1977. 9 And this is presented atCalifornia's 10 one-day programs, quote, "preventing on-the-job 11 cancer", end quote. 12 Q. It looks like it is a slide show, 13 with narration by Mr. Myers? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. He lists a number of slides 16 presented, and what I want to do is just refer you 17 to a couple of these. 18 Slide number 21 indicates it is of a 19 "No smoking" sign "at the entrance of our plant." 20 Do you understand that to be the King 2 1 City mill? 22 A. Yes . 23 Q- And Mr. Myers says in his text to 24 that slide: 25 "Smoking has been prohibited on plant DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019065 1 Rhodes 160 2 property since January of this year," which I 3 guess would be 1977. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. "As you all know, smoking and 6 asbestos exposure do not mix." 7 Did' you have any understanding back 8 in 1977 that hazards related to asbestos exposure 9 could be increased or compounded amongst smokers? 10 A. Yes . 11 . MR. WILL:Can you be more specific 12 as to what you mean by "hazards"? 13 MR. BROWNSON: Health hazards. 14 Q. Do you know when you obtained that 15 information? 16 , MR. GERSON: You are not asking for 17 medical opinion at this point? 18 MR. BROWNSON: No. 19 Q. What I am asking is: 2 0 Mr. Myers recites in his piece here, 2 1 in connection with slide 20, that statement, that 22 "Smoking and asbestos exposure do not mix," and 23 what I am asking, Dr. Rhodes, is if you understood 24 that to be true back at this time, in 1976. 25 A. Yes . DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019066 1 2 3 4 5 6_ 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Rhodes 161 Q. Do you know when you first obtained that information? A. Some time after Dr. Selikoff's paper came out. Q. In about? A. '70-ish, somewhere in that time f rame. Q. Do you know where you got the information? A. From Selikoff and the literature, general asbestos hazards literature, that was coming out in the early '70s. Q. Do you know whether customers of Calidria asbestos were advised by Union Carbide that smoking and asbestos do not mix? MR. GERSON: At any time period? MR. BROWNSON: Right. A. Could you repeat. Q. Do you know whether customers of Union Carbide Calidria asbestos were advised that smoking and asbestos do not mix? A. Yes . Q. What do you know about that? A. We included that in general DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019067 1 Rhodes 162 2 information that we sent out to customers with 3 some publications from the AIANA. It was fairly 4 prominent in our customer discussions from 5 sometime, I would estimate, in the mid-'70s. I 6 don't know specifically when. 7 Q. Do you know if it was before or after 8 1974? . 9 A. No. 10 Q. DidUnionCarbideprovide to 11 customers various handouts from the AIANA? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And do you knowwhenthose handouts 14 began to be provided to customers by Union 15 Carbide? 16 A. Sometime in the early to middle '70s 17 is my best estimate. 18 Q. Would it be fair to say that the 19 Asbestos Information Association of North America, 20 in the early to mid-'70s, was very skeptical of 21 Dr. Selikoff's research and pronouncements about 22 asbestos and health? 23 MR. WILL: I will object to asking 24 him to characterize something like that. 25 A. I don't know that I could define DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019068 1 Rhodes 163 2 whether they were or not. 3 Q. Would it be fair to say that the 4 AIANA was a trade association of asbestos mining 5 companies in North America? 6 A. No . 7 Q. It was not? 8 A. It included them, but it was -- also 9 had a large number of asbestos - containing product 10 manufacturers that were involved. 11 Q. Slide number 30 presented in this 12 speech by Mr. Myers is entitled "Monitoring," and 13 he writes and presented in his speech: 14 "We have collected dust samples since 15 our plant opened, in 1963. Considerable effort is 16 expended to remain in compliance with changing 17 regulations." 18 Do you see that? 19 A. What was the slide number? 20 Q. 30 . 21 A. Yes . 22 Q- As far as you know , is that correct? 23 A. As far as I know, that is correct. 24 Q. But, again, as you sit here today, 25 you can't recall seeing any of those before 1971? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019069 1 Rhodes 164 2 MR. WILL: Any of what? 3 MR. BROWNSON: Dust measurements 4 from King City. 5 A. No, I don't know of any before then.. 6 There is no reason for me to see 7 them. 8 Q. Next exhibit I would like you to look 9 at is Exhibit 11. This is a July 14th, 1977 10 letter from you to a number of different people at 11 Union Carbide. ' 12 I will ask you if you recognize that. 13 A. I recognize it. 14 Q. Can you describe for us what that 15 exhibit is? 16 A. At this po int in time, the Consumer 17 Product Safety Commissi on - - 18 MR. WILL: Wait. Tell him what" the 19 thing is. There are several different 20 documents, appar ently, stapled together, 21 Q. Just give us a physical description 22 of what this exhibit is 23 A. This is a letter on proposed CPSC ban 24 of asbestos in tape joi nt compounds, dated July 25 14, 1977. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019070 1 Rhodes 165 2 Q. And CPSC is Consumer Product Safety 3 Commission? . 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. That is a federal government group? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. At the time this was written, was the 8 Calidria asbestos being used in tape joint 9 compound? 10 A. Yes. 11 . MR. WILL: Thefirst page of the 12 exhibit is this internalcorrespondence 13 from Dr. Rhodes dated July 14, 1977. 14 Second, third, fourth and fifth 15 pages of the exhibit are a copy of a letter 16 dated July 14, 1977, to The Honorable S. 17 John Byington, chairman of the Consumer 18 Product Safety Commission, also from Dr. 19 Rhodes. 20 And the last - 21 MR. BROWNSON: And the last three 22 pages of the exhibit are something else. 23 THE WITNESS: Apparently from Barry 24 L. Castleman, environmental consultant, 25 commenting on the Carbide 7/14/77 letter to DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019071 1 Rhodes 166 2 CPSC, dated from the dry well repair job. 3 BY MR. BROWNSON: 4 Q. Do you know if that is something that 5 was actually attached to your letter, or is that 6 something - 7 A. This looks like my writing on it. 8 This was probably July 14th. 9 MR. WILL: That refers to your 10 letter, the day of your letter. 11 You say "attached." You mean 12 attached in Carbide's files. 13 ' Q. What I am trying to figure out is: 14 I have received these three items 15 that Trevor Will has just identified, attached 16 together, from Union Carbide. I am just wondering 17 if your internal cover memo which is on the front 18 included as attachments the two'attachments that 19 we have here on the exhibit. 20 A. I recognize the letter, obviously. 21 Q- The first of the two attachments you 22 recognize? 23 A. Let me look here just a moment. 24 Q- Let's see if we can clear this up. 25 The exhibit you are looking at, DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019072 1 2 Exhibit l: 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 memorandui 7 correct? 8 A. 9 Q. 10 wrote on . 11 Consumer : 12 A. 13 Q. 14 A. 15 Q. 16 three pag 17 Castleman 18 19 Q. 20 commentin 21 A. 22 Q. 23 material 24 by you? 25 A. Rhodes 167 -- consists of three parts. The first is your internal Then the next part is a letter you And the third part of this exhibit is MR. WILL: It is on his letterhead. - on his letterhead, basically And then Mr. Castleman's typewritten Yes, probably. They look like my DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019073 1 Rhodes 168 2 handwriting 3 Q. You are commenting on his comments? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. O.K. The next exhibit I have got is 6 Exhibit 12. 7 I will ask you if you recognize that. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. For the record, will you identify for 10 us what Exhibit 12 is. 11 A. It is a -- subject is asbestos 12 product label, October 29, 1984. 13 Q. And that is a memorandum by you? 14 A. By me, to J. L. Myers. 15 Q. Of? 16 A. UMETCO Minerals Corporation, King 17 City, California. 18 Q. UMETCO Minerals Corporation is the 19 same King City Calidria asbestos business we have 20 been talking about? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And at some point its name was 23 changed to UMETCO Minerals Corporation? 24 A. The whole metals division at some 25 time was changed to UMETCO Minerals Corporation. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019074 t # 1 Rhodes 169 2 Q. It still was a Union carbide - 3 A. Still was a Union Carbide business. 4 Q. O.K. And what you are doing in this 5 particular letter in '84, as I understand it, is 6 you are commenting on an asbestos product label; 7 right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And this is the label that would go 10 . on what, bags of Calidria asbestos? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Would this label be used anywhere 13 else, other than on bags? 14 A. It could be used as a warning label 15 where warning labels are required, in other 1 16 places. 17 Q. Do you know if Union Carbide used it 18 anywhere other than on the bags of Calidria 19 asbestos? ' 20 A. I don't believe Union Carbide ever 21 used this. 22 Q. Do you know if it ever - 23 A. This label was being put together to 24 give John something to take with him when they 25 changed, when they sold the business. It is a DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019075 1 Rhodes 170 2 U.S. international label with the "A" sign on it. 3 Q. At the time you drafted this memo. 4 Union Carbide was already in the process of 5 selling the Calidria asbestos business? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And John Myers, who was the former 8 Union Carbide plant manager, was going to work for 9 the new owners? 10 11 . A. Go with it, yes. Q. And you were preparing or helping him 12 prepare a label to be used on the Calidria 13 asbestos bag under the new ownership? 14 A. Yes, Calidria Corporation. 15 They changed that. 16 Q. Here is why I am confused: 17 Earlier, when we were looking at 18 those letters sent to the bagging employees at 19 King City, some of them were on the Calidria 20 Corporation letterhead but they were copies to 21 you. I asked you at that point who this Calidria 22 Corporation was, and I got the impression they 23 were still owned by Union Carbide at that point. 24 MR. WILL: The operation or the 25 Calidria Corporation? ' DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019076 w 16 1 ' )' 1 Rhodes 171 2 MR. BROWNSON: Both. 3 MR. WILL: I think he said he never 4 heard of Calidria Corporation. 5 A. I will admit to being confused. 6 In October '84, they were still part 7 of the new UMETCO Minerals Corporation, which was a a Union Carbide wholly-owned subsidiary in that 9 structure. 10 BY MR. BROWNSON: n Q. The particular label for the Calidria 12 asbestos bags, which is attached to your memo here - - as I understand it, that label was never 13 14 used on the bags while Union. Carbide owned the 15 company; is that correct? 16 A. That is my understanding, yes. 17 Q. Union Carbide did have a label on the 18 bags at some point; correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And at some point Union Carbide put a 21 warning label on the bag dealing with health 22 hazards of inhaling asbestos; correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Do you remember when that was? 25 A. I looked at both labels yesterday. I DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019077 1 Rhodes 172 2 am trying to remember. I think the first one was 3 in 1968. 4 Q. Do you remember when the first change 5 to that was made? 6 A. The first change was made in '76 or 7 thereabouts, when the new OSHA standard came out. 8 MR. WILL: I think '72. 9 THE WITNESS: I am sorry. 10 A. I am sorry. '72. 11 Q. 0. K. 12 Q. By '84, the label you were suggesting 13 to Mr. Myers was that attached to your letter, 14 Exhibit 12? 15 A. Yes . 16 Q. Are you aware of any other revisions 17 of the label on the asbestos between '72 and '84? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Next exhibit I want to show you is 20 Exhibit 13. 21 I will ask you, first of all, do you 22 recognize that. 23 A. Yes, I recognize it. 24 Q. Can you describe for us what this 25 exhibit is. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019078 1 Rhodes 173 2 MR. WILL: Read the title. 3 A. "Occurrence of Ultra Fine Fibers in 4 Calidria RG244 asbestos," August 24, 1978. 5 Q. Is it a memorandum or a report? 6 A. Informal report. - 7 Q. Addressed to Mr. Myers, who is the 8 manager of the King City plant? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. It is written by you? 11 A. Yes . 12 Q. And the work done by Mr. Engels and 13 Glenda J. Spencer. August 24, 1978. 14 Do you remember why this report was 15 prepared? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Why was that? 18 A. In our customer sampling program, we 19 had suddenly picked up a couple of high fiber 20 counts in the RG244 product, which normally 21 gave -- routinely gave very, very low fiber 22 counts. And we also had had a report from a 23 customer, it states here, that their fiber counts 24 were now one to two; and I think, from what I read 25 here, also, an OSHA inspection got a very high DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019079 1 Rhodes 174 2 fiber count. 3 Q. At that customer's plant? 4 A. At the customer's plant. 5 So we went back and looked at the 6 filters. We had saved all the filters from the 7 customer counts over the years and stored them, so 8 we had them available to go back and look at them. 9 And we went back and looked at them and, in 10 general, found that there were -- in some of the 11 filters, there were fibers longer than five 12 microns that were also very fine. They were at 13 the limit of detection. 14 Q. By the polarized - 15 A. By the phase contrast microscopy. 16 If you had a microscope that was on 17 the good side, you could see them, and if you 18 didn't, you didn't. 19 And we had also been making -- had 20 made a couple of increases in capacity. The RG244 21 was manufactured in a separate circuit, and we had 22 made capacity increases and some processing 23 changes in that time frame. And these sections, 24 identifiable times when you could -- when you 25 found these marginally detectable fibers, seemed DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019080 1 Rhodes 175 2 to -- could represent the times these changes had 3 been made. 4 Q. o.K. And you drew some conclusions 5 from them, which you set out in the report. And 6 we don't need to belabor them in detail. But my 7 question is: 8 Do you know whether the information 9 contained in this report or the conclusions 10 contained in this report were then given to the 11 customers, or was this retained for Union 12 Carbide's internal use? 13 A. I don't know whether it was given to 14 customers or not. 15 I believe it caused us to start 16 running internal QC and adjust our processing 17 conditions so that we were not doing this. 18 Q. The report has the heading on it 19 "Business confidential." 20 Do you know what was meant by that? 21 A. That was meant to -- basically, to go 22 to a very small distribution, that you see there. 23 Q- Why did you place that heading on the 24 report? 25 A. Because we wanted, basically, to DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019081 1 Rhodes 176 2 limit the information until we decided what to do 3 about it. 4 (Discussion off the record) 5 BY MR. BROWNSON: 6 Q. Dr. Rhodes, I want to show you the 7 next exhibit, which is marked Exhibit 14. 8 I ask you if you can identify for us 9 what that is. 10 A. It is entitled, "Testimony regarding 11 16 CPR, 1304, 1305, respirable free-form asbestos 12 proposal to ban certain patching compounds and 13 artificial emberizing materials," paren, ampersand 14 "ash," close paren. 15 Q. "Presented byHarrison B. Rhodes, 16 Union Carbide Corp." 17 That is you, yes? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. August 15, '77? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Now, is this written testimony that 22 you submitted, or did you actually sit in front of 23 somebody and testify? 24 A. This was oraltestimony before the 25 CPSC. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019082 1 Rhodes 177 2 Q The same Consumer Product Safety- 3 Commission proposal to ban the joint compounds 4 containing asbestos that we talked about a minute 5 ago? 6 A. I think so. Let me review it here. 7 Yes, I believe it is. 8 Q. And you traveled somewhere to testify 9 in opposition to the ban? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Where did you go to present that 12 testimony? 13 A. Washington, D.C. 14 Q. The next exhibit is Exhibit 15. 15 I will ask you if you recognize this. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. This is dated April 18, 1975, and it 18 is an internal Union Carbide correspondence from 19 you to Mr. Thurber, at the Union Carbide office on 20 the 38th floor, 270 Park Avenue, New York, New 21 York. Right? ' 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And it says, "Subject:Backup 24 discussion, Marks" - 25 A. Backup information, Marks bill DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019083 1 Rhodes 178 2 discussion. 3 Q. What is Marks bill discussion? 4 A. This is a California law, Marks bill, 5 banning the spraying of anything containing . 6 asbestos. And the original bill had gone through, 7 literally doing that. You couldn't spray water 8 from your house with asbestos in it, in 9 California. 10 And we had a number of products that 11 were used in maintenance coatings, things of that 12 nature, that had a small amount of asbestos 13 already mixed in, and our data showed that the 14 release of asbestos from the spraying was 15 basically nil, already wet, and that the release 16 of asbestos from the sandblasting or the removal 17 of the coatings was there, but very, very low. 18 And we were lobbying, talking, preparing to talk, 19 to the legislators relative to amending the Marks 20 bill. ' 21 Q. Did you, in fact, talk tothe 22 legislators in California? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Was the Marks bill amended - 25 A. Was ultimately amended - DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019084 # 1 Rhodes 179 2 Q. - - as a result of your effort? 3 A. We were not alone . Our efforts and 4 those of others. 5 Q. If you'd look at the second paragraph 6 of your memorandum, you say: 7 "Our case is going to have to stand 8 or fall on the OSHA procedure." 9 Are you talking there about the fact 10 that the measurements Union Carbide had done on 11 asbestos air levels were all done according to the 12 OSHA method, using phase contrast microscopy? 13 A. Let me read the paragraphbefore I 14 answer that question. 15 Q. O.K. 16 (Pause in the proceedings) 17 THE WITNESS: Would'you read the 18 question again, please. 19 (Question read) . 2 0 A. The answer is yes. 21 BY MR. BROWNSON: 22 Q. Just before that, you makereference 23 to "EM." 24 Are you talking there about 25 electromicroscopy? DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867 - 8220 UCAREF00019085 1 Rhodes 180 2 A. Yes . 3 Q. Now, in that context, you say: 4 "You also know we did not pursue the 5 EM work." 6 What EM work are you talking about 7 there? 8 A. Well, the issue here is that there 9 were in our samples, particularly if you had 10 fiberglass, also, in the composite that you were 11 sanding or grinding, you got glass fibers and 12 things like that that were counted as fibers if 13 they had the right dimensions, unless you had good 14 reason to exclude them. 15 And what we had done is, for want of 16 better information, had included a fair amount of 17 stuff in those counts that in all probability were 18 not asbestos, and we had to go to 19 electromicroscopy to redo the counting. And that, 20 in itself, is a messy correlation. It really is 21 not that good. 22 Q. Why did you not go to the 23 electromicroscopy to get a more accurate film, a 24 more accurate count? 25 A. You don't necessarily get a more DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019086 1 Rhodes 181 2 accurate count. You can identify some of the 3 things that were not asbestos, which would help. 4 But comparison counting between electron 5 microscopy and the same or filtered from the same 6 kind by the EM - - there have been varying levels 7 of correlation, none of them real good. 8 Q. Have you ever done such comparisons? 9 A. We have never done such comparisons, 10 but I have read about them. 11 Q. You say one of the problems with 12 using electromicroscopy or one of the things you 13 could do with electromicroscopy is identify the 14 nonasbestos particles? 15 A. You could begin to positively 16 identify some of the things you had been counting 17 which, in reality, were not asbestos. 18 Q. The other thing you would also do, 19 you would detect smaller asbestos particles that 20 you didn't see before, smaller and thinner 21 particles? 22 A. You would detect smaller and possibly 23 thinner, yes, that you didn't see before. 24 So it was more of a mess than a 25 research project to try to do that. So we just DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019087 1 Rhodes 182 2 didn' t do it 3 Q. In any event, it sounds like this was 4 . some work that was considered but you decided not 5 to pursue it ? 6 A. Yes. ` 7 We decided to stand on our OSHA. 8 Q. O.K. Then, when you say "We did not 9 pursu e it anymore," that seems to indicate that 10 you s tarted it. 11 Did you start it at all? 12 A. No. 13 Q- You just didn't do any of it? 14 A. No . 15 Q. Here is what I wanted to ask you 16 about 11 On the second page of your memo. you 18 talk about " Yale report." Do you know what you 19 were talking about here? 20 A. I think a gentleman named Sawyer did 21 some work at Yale on asbestos. It is hazy. He 22 came up with some unusually high numbers. 23 Q. At'the time you wrote this report, it 24 had apparently come to your attention that Dr. 25 Sawyer had generated some asbestos air level DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019088 1 Rhodes 183 2 numbers that you were commenting on; is that fair 3 to say? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And do you know how Dr. Sawyer's 6 result had come to your attention before that 7 time? 8 A. It appeared in the literature 9 somewhere. 10 Q. And, maybe to jog your memory, do you 11 recall that what Dr. Sawyer did was took some 12 measurements of airborne asbestos levels in the 13 Yale architectural library at Yale University? 14 A. Now that you say that, I think that 15 is the report. 16 My comment was if he took an unbound 17 asbestos and rubbed it hard enough, there is no 18 reason to disbelieve a count this high could be 19 obtained. 20 ' Q. Are you aware that Dr. Sawyer's 2 1 results from the Yale architectural library were 22 adopted by OSHA as some of the data upon which 23 they based the OSHA standards after 1973? 24 A. I was not aware of it. 25 Q. The next exhibit, Number 16, April DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019089 1 Rhodes 184 2 22, 1974 report, authored by you and Mr. Kleber, 3 entitled "Airborne asbestos dust levels for 4 intermittent batch dumping operations for open 5 chrysotile fiber"; is that correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Is this a report that you authored? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Do you remember why this report was 19 10 written and what purpose you intended to use it 11 for? 12 A. We were assemblingdata that we 13 had gotten from the various -- variety of 14 customer monitoring, to get an overview of the 15 kind of fiber levels that'were expected, for 16 our own information and for discussing with 17 customers. 18 Q. And the compilationor thesummary of 19 the customer air level data that you talked about 20 earlier, that you put together? 21 A. This is one of them, anyway. I was 22 curious. I notice this is 1974, and I think that 23 probably we updated it and published others as 24 we got more information. But this is the first 25 one . DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019090 1 Rhodes 185 2 Q. Do you know if any report of this 3 type, summarizing the data at customer plants, was 4 prepared considering the Calidria pelletized 5 asbestos? 6 A. I believe it was. 7 Q. Do you recall what the date was? 8 A. After this one. 9 Q. Do you know if there was a report 10 similar to this, summarizing airborne asbestos 11 dust measurements at the King City plant, where 12 those were compiled and put together in a 13 report? 14 A. X don't recall everdoing that. 15 Q. Do you know if this report. Exhibit 16 16, was ever used by you or submitted by you in 17 connection with any government regulatory 18 proceedings? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Does that mean youdon't know or it 21 wasn't? 22 A. I don't know. 2 3 MR. BROWNSON: Thank you. 24 EXAMINATION 25 BY MR. WILL: DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019091 1 Rhodes 186 2 Q. Doctor, by way of clarification, if 3 you are looking at fibers that are longer than 4 five microns, talking only about that type of 5 fiber, would you expect to be able to see all 6 of the fibers longer than five microns with 7 PCM, if you are properly trained in that 8 microscope? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Do you have any sense of what the 11 percentage is? 12 A. No. 13 Q. All right. Doctor, am I correct, do 14 I understand correctly from yourlast answer, that 15 you don't have any sense of what percentage of the 16 fibers over five microns you would be able to see 17 with PCM? 18 MR. BROWNSON: I will object to the 19 form of the question. 20 MR. WILL: I wil 1 rephrase it. 21 Q. Do you have any s ense, Doctor - - 22 let's talk about Calidria asbe stos -- of what 23 percentage of the fibers over five microns that 24 exist in a sample you would be able to see with 25 PCM, the way you did it -- the way it was done DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019092 # 1 Rhodes 187 2 when you were at Union Carbide? 3 A. I would think you would be able to 4 see a substantial proportion of them. 5 Q. Are you able to say with any more 6 specificity than that? ' 7 A. I can't say with any more 8 specificity. 9 MR. WILL: O.K. 10 FURTHER EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. BROWNSON: 12 Q. Have you seen any Calidria asbestos 13 fiber size distribution data that actually tells 14 you what portion of them are detectable by PCM and 15 what are not? 16 A. No. 17 MR. WILL-: We are talking about 18 fibers over five microns? 19 . MR. BROWNSON: Over five microns. 20 A. I have not seen any data of that 21 type. 22 FURTHER EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. WILL: 24 Q. Doctor, did you do any studies 25 actually comparing asbestos fiber from the Union DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019093 1 Rhodes 188 2 Carbide mine with fiber from the Johns-Manville 3 mine or fiber from the Atlas mine in the Calidria 4 deposit? ' 5 A. I did not. 6 Q. Are you aware of any such 7 studies being done by other people at Union 8 Carbide? 9 A. There may have been work in that area 10 done by Dr. Mumpton and another gentleman whose 11 name escapes me, back in the early days of the 12 project. Dr. Shwatzdiak. 13 Q. If there was such work, we should ask 14 Mumpton and Shwatzdiak? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. They would be the ones that know 17 about it if there was any such work? 18 Yes . 19 MR. WILL : All right. 20 MR . WILL : That is all I've got. 21 MR. BROWNSON: Just for the record, 22 you will put the exhibits with the original 23 and then'copy exhibits for the copies. The 24 reporter can send me the original for later 25 filing with the court. DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019094 1 Rhodes 189 2 MR. WILL: Right. 3 And he does want to read it and sign 4 5 MR. BROWNSON: Thank you. 6 (Time noted: 4:20 p.m.) 7 8 9 10 11 Subscribed and sworn to before me 12 thisday of1994 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019095 1 190 2 C E RT.XI.XCATE 3 4 STATE OF NEW YORK 5 COUNTY OF NEW YORK ) ) ss. : ) 6 7 I, PAUL KIRSCHEN, a Certified 8 Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public within 9 and for the State of New York, do hereby 10 certify: 11 That I reported the proceedings in 12 the within-entitled matter, and that the 13 within transcript is a true record of such 14 proceedings. 15 I further certify that I am not 16 related, by blood or marriage, to any of 17 the parties in this matter and that I am in 18 no way interested in the outcome of this 19 matter. 20 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto lot* 21 set my hand this dav of October, 1994. 22 'Y&J! l^uscL--- 2 3 24 PAUL KIRSCHEN, CSR 25 UCAREF00019096 # 1 191 2 INDEX 3 WITNESS 4 Harrison B. Rhodes' 5 EXAMINATION BY Mr. Brownson PAGE 4 187 6 Mr. Will 185 187 7 8 EXHIBITS 9 PLAINTIFF' S FOR IDENT. 10 Dr. Rhodes' curriculum vitae, 11 through 1986 30 12 2 13 UCC plenum test, 10903, dust count, King City, California, May 12, 1982 and July 26, 1982 97 14 3 ' 1982 lab test 97 15 4 16 5 17 18 6 19 UCC dust count, King City, California, May 2, 1989 Replicate sampling of airborne fiber emissions at King City, California, done March 15, 1979 King City NIOSH samples, dust count, January 25-27, 1983 97 97 97 20 7 21 8 22 23 9 24 25 21 1985 letters from Union Carbide to baggers Letter dated June 3, W. C. Thurber to Dr. Welsh ' 1975, J. J. from Correspondence dated February 12, 1976, from Mr. Thurber to J. W. Rawlings 133 133 133 DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019097 1 192 2 3 (Continued) 4 PLAINTIFF'5 FOR IDENT. PAGE 5 10 Presentations of June 13, 1977 6 and June 18, 1977, by Mr. Myers 133 7 11 8 Letter dated July 14, 1977, from Dr. Rhodes to various recipients,*, four-page letter 9 dated July 14, 1977, from Dr. Rhodes to The Honorable S. John 10 Byington; and three-page document from Barry L. 11 Castleman 133 12 12 13 Memorandum dated October 1984, from Dr. Rhodes to Myers, with label 29, J. L. 133 14 13 15 Informal report dated August 24, 1978, from Dr. Rhodes to Mr. Myers 133 16 14 17 18 15 19 20 16 21 Presentation of August 15, 1977, by Harrison B. Rhodes, Consumer -Product Safety Commission to Correspondence 1985, from Dr. Thurber dated April 18, Rhodes to Mr. Report dated April 22, 1974, from Dr. Rhodes and Mr. Kleber 133 133 13 3 22 23 * * * 24 25 DOYLE REPORTING, INC. (212)867-8220 UCAREF00019098