Document 3Q95KxQ77gVewg6GO57LRj00D

/ Sy" STATE OF INDIANA. . ) !/Y; yr; ) - ss: y;yC ,r^^-:iiC0UNTy-.of:marion . ), : -'V,. J ;vYv- Y-;Y, Y; '<$$?'' C>;;.';.-;v;> V,;-' *. Y IN' THE ;MARION 'SUPERIOR ' COURT ' / Y-u^ O;*- - , f V ,,.L.` ` 4*>.;'<i;-:.'-y> ` . 1> . _ * . ,s` .-/ - *'' : . , ,!'<*' Y`Y' 4 HJ ,V -' 'V, , Yy,/,-;, - *.; ', Y' `y yy ly"S V ../N1 , ,'V/-4*'",' > >., ' ,v/, 'v .... '4 ,<j A 'Y'Y YYv' v- y- , '7 7 C,;MYBOTTEMA, . JR ,-Yd/b/a Y* :?5/> yy\ ^ % .y , I'-. '/Y- v'C YY-.''4 ' Ybottema FARMS, '. V Y\Y.;.: i.*;r?v v-x-i.'*i<v`.`.-- ` '! .viY.w^< !.../ ./ie ' * 51wY,v->\i'**,, 77'.i*',1,, v..7\y.Y , .',..).7..v..;.k..\.v. ,, V>(-rl . 'StyPlaintiff . V;vv`'<,''*y 1.. -i.' ., -/. -. . t f < . 'S J y.'Jpy,^". V-' ) - i; ,v ;-l,'MONSANTO COMPANY`"'r^Y ;S 778-0603 ; Uh*A-~* v ' j **i J . > , , .. -YY ') * r 1 1 > /; >Y'Y ,.t. .. " ;$; `' ' ` bloomfield" silo 'company,"'IncY- `) , yv'-C;Ym.>..*'v ,-*' /? / ...... ' . -/-V. 'r.', -4 .. . /; J '7 .>'.,,( ..' i;v ; ;y . CONCRETE SILO.COMPANY ; ' a-. y;Y::; :v :YY' ' .INDIANA BRAND COMPiANNYY/' . <*'"::/ MArDsTISoOr\MN ' tB>tR> AaNmDt* '- CmOxMmPAAMNVY ; ' ) , ` ,, /YS' Y.vY;'<''Y -;C. V, JOHN DOE,`-:and;.^-; '7Y' \v> ' \\ ^1 ' f'jjJ v ,'S L. `"Tt ; ;:V,JOHN DOE, INC.', - -/ * , ). " ' ' ;; .i'yj' &?*.*'-&?*-. - t-' *, ' ..'j'y'y ^ , * ,'- YY>Defendant s. Y-.VvY-'-') .YiY ' .................................. '^ YYY:';:YY;i"Y...':Y'. :':/"Y:y'Y'jTower; "Building/-'in'the' City of' Indianapolis, - .-s': ^;tY-;':-vYfYYYYi:'Y County of Marion Y' .Statev of -Indiana, on' YYY'Y-Yc'-August 6, .1981.- ' ` YYYfYYY'Y , * -^Y'V ycYY1'-YY^ . , Y / y ^ J " i .^ i '' v . ,' , vr - ,\ j Y '' L'\\ >, , 'v'Y' ^ l t ' "Y" "-1 , ' -.y / .'`'..-.V.y 'y.'- > 4"' *4'> . / tY:/Ys/V+,. v j -\ " < ., ,j ... .*.?> x . ; v . . Y ^ ,.'i. ,, `/'Y-.; t . . -V .YY' :W ,y - "...Y.. * 'v^* i -< n v.>,.. ' $.i-\(. / .y, j 1 ,'' j\Y`* >' ..' ' o"'. -'..L < ri v:*-" .'V'*.'. . r* -; /' .. v>' ;'YY1' -'Y-''Nv'YY ' - ' / Y; ~ Yy. yY .tsv ........... . y'..V' h'Y j' ' ' /' ; . . > ..y,,-y''V. *v '!'*. YY Y '*1 , <s- \1 Y:%YYyY`YYYiY';'r;German' F."/TierneyReporter'Y"Yf,;/V-YY YYY:Y:;::;.YY'Y/^Y;Y- YY^YY/.Y.;/,;YY!,`'Y 3"-,^A Y-Y-.:YyV ::vy:/v.y .. <;^:;..;'--;T'YYY' V-y;.,,/yy'7 rv.' ; Y /,-Y ' 4t>; Y/'YLV';( .T JIE*R-NEY rR\Ec.PrOuiRr Ti ImNnGu COuj .^ -Yr1 Y"' '' Z"'YY',tY' '' YYyYY'YY 'YY::Y;i': '\Yv.jY,\'"Y.,YwYY^t?notiyi>e an<^ Shorthand Reporters'.'y/'Y'.'.'''''v'/lV-''- Y-TY- v; `y YYY". Yi-'Y'-Y YyYYt^Y'YYcYY;YYYYY i Y' /^ ^YYY Y p^de Tower YY';YY'yY:;Yv.;:-1Y-;:Yi>y/Y'Y^-V'''"Cv^;'-' ''Y"Y^-'vYYYy.y'iYY:''Y: ; Yr^YYY.Y'"',y'yY<V^YvYY'YYY'''^n^`an?P''s' 'Indiana ` : Y/Y;/Y^PhpneY38-3559' YYY^Y' " WATER PCB-SD0000035146 WILLIAM E. PAPAGECRG1 I OSK Questions b] wW >Uvv< nn*M' - va-:r*i Younu f*5 -T' tv-nrcr-+i -i: f A" '-1f' V Gray nsjnr 1 A A* Puese tV> -nJ*T.'` --v-rri 147 WATER PCB-SD0000035147 ;v?:ate of Indiana county of nation ) ) ) 8S; in 'iff hafjoh si-ra^m Qmrr C. M. BOLTETLA, JB.,, d/b/n BOTXEHA FARMS, FXalafcifi: "VS- kohsabto ccmnm BI.COMFXKLD SILO COMPACT, IN 0. CONGESTS Slli) COIIPAKY INDIANA BRAND COLfPAHY HADXSOB BRAND COM?ANT JOm POE,, and JOHN DOE, INC., ' Re/:^aijnss ) ) ) ) ) ) S 770-0603 jV ) ) } ) ) ). } )' } . - . DEPOSITION OF WX.UJ.AM ATAOFOP.QE Anpe_nr.{?.n.oe g: FOR THE PLAINTIFF: Young A T.oukr , bv ' Hr. HOWARD S. K}h?G, JR. and Hr. JOSHFU STEVENSON FOR THE DEFENDANT MOBSABrrO .COMPART*. Ho cap, P.o cap, F.ease A Younj j, Kr. FE'llF 0. REESE, ' Hr. JOHN I). COCIYUd and Hr.. JAMES G/ll-S TOR. THE DEFENDANT B100HFIELD SILO COMPANY: Dutton, Kapp<?.e & Overran, by Hr. DAVID W. C?MY . ' Banutm I. TIcrre-.y., Pc?pot ter WATER PCB-SD0000035148 STATE OF imiWA ) ) S3: COUNTY OF MARXOh ) X-5 10;*: MAR 101* SUPETI.i/'l yW? C. H, LOTTim, JRm, d/b/a E9XTEKA FAKMS, . Plaintiff . "VS MIHSASTO CCYtAHY BLOOMFIELD SILO COMPANY, IMG., CONGH.ETE SILO COMPANY TJdDXAIiA BR/GTD COMPANY KADI SOS BRAHD COMPAQ JCEiS DOE, and JOB'? DOE, IOC,, ' Do fnod ants- ) \/ ). ) ) } S 778-0603 } ) ) ) ) ) ). ) ) ) 3 The deposition of WILLIAM B,, PAPAGEOF.OE, a witness produced and tutors before sc, HeKraan F, Tierney, a Notary ' Public of Marlon County, State of Indiana, at, Che offices of ' Tierney Reporting Co, 928 Circle Tower Building, in. the City of Indianapolis, County of Marlon, Stale of Xndifma, on -the 6th day of August, 1981, pursuant to the Rules of Indiana Procedure. 'This deposition vys taken on behalf of tbe plaintiff, in a. certain action now pending in the Superior Court of Marion County, Indiana, wherein . M, Vc,ti:mv&, Jr,, d/b/a Boftensa Farms is plaintiff, end Men gw to Company, K loom fir. Id . WATER PCB-SD0000035149 Silo Company r Inc, Concrete Silo Compart Indiana Brand Company, Hadiacm Braml Company, John Ux> mx! John Doc, Inc. rr V'Tv JV'' cf f\ i.i , p - *, i -.*. i,. . - o' \ *. 'i..' v> # WATER PCB-SD0000035150 E 1'k k L A. I1 H* p A F A j 0 H C E, having been previously duly sworn to tell the truth, the who 1*3 truth and nothing It it the truth relating to s<*. id csmsc dope or s and -o.yst c D XRECT EfAMXl?AX tOM. QUEST 10 WS BY MB. HOWARD S. Y0'U8Gf JR,: 1. 0\ Would yOU St-ate your fvl.X ri;VM 3 pi&:8? A William B. Fapegeorge. 2 0 Would you sp ell it for the hopcrcr, please, name ? A My name , it is P"-*p~S"BTMe*' ') Where d<o you li.v'Sp sir? A Kt * Ion la, Missouri. 4 Q What is your j ob 1 - A 1 am Director (, Environmental Operations ,, for Monsanto Cocmde&I Intermediates Co *, -til opt?, rating unit of Monsanto Coapahy. . 5 Q Would you give me your job history, please, your work ' history, and start way beck when you started to work. bat's get your education firat, what was that? A X have a Bachelor of Science, -and Master of Science in Chemical Engineering from Washington University in St. hoyis, Missouri. -' WATER PCB-SD0000035151 6 (.) I'btui? _ A The*, bachelor of Science is 1943, the Master of Science :> a i? V/;, and my it? rat professional employment was with tl-Mips Petroleum Oorpeny in Fartlasvllie, Oklahoma Q hoai: did you do? A X was in the Research Department concerned with improv ing the recovery of oil from exhausted wells* And then I >nu< at signed to process enp.inhering In the Refining Department: of which I helped deeign equipment for refining petroleum. Fallowing that, 1 joined Monsanto Company. A then? . . A In. 1951, and X have been, with Monsanto Company since thorn' . - My principal assignments hive been in manufacturing management * 9 Q V3;;at dees that mean? A That Is the supervision of people end work forces Involved in the manufacture of chemical a* 10 0 Oort of administrative.-? . A Yea* sir. U Q TVw, will you give the dates on that, please? - A Tbct van from 1951 until January, 1970, and through the WATER PCB-SD0000035152 7 years, the level of responsibility irforeased with time. 12 Q fthat do you mean by that? A X starts out a a .n. supcrvT so?' of ?. in'-fill.. rr*>nu .faff fcur lag unit, and by the <rm<l of 1170, X res tlv plant manager at one of the pls.nka that Ky*ximfco has in Anniston, Alabama 13 Q Mow Monsanto is a chemical comtpaor, is 1t; ' not ? A Yob, sir. 14 Q rtakas chemical products? A Primarily. ' 15 Q What departments ware you in who.n you sk&xted cut as t\ supervisor' with Monsanto, ??ht det>artts*?ni' wore you la? A Ibe department that my initial assignment was with the unit that mads: Yhthalic and Hydride ' . 16 Q f/.'vA t- A.?.'; V'*5.V> 4 A That is the basic chemical that. .1.9 used, to combine with other chemicals to make plastics, paint, primarily. 17 Q X see, well, go ah-aad and tell me more. After you left that department, you said you became the hand of the plant. ` Now,, would you tell me the various responsibilities, you had with respect to products during chat Interval from *50 to *70? - WATER PCB-SD0000035153 iS A X had responsibility for vmuxxf,aei.ur and sales, packaging and distribution of the Fhthalic and Hydride mentioned, various t la sti ci.t ere-, v!>J ch pt? motoriots used to odd to plastic is to make tbosB. to yfve thera pto-portics that; art. deoi table , ` 7 also responsibly for the w.mtf&etuve of Phenol, which Is also kaev?r as carbolic rtcidj m.unuf.\acf:'f,V' of rubber additives* The so airs okvmteals that ara added to rubber to give the. desired properties. 18 C> Hell new, whan you say "you are re sponsible" you. were, X take .it you were In an acta in 1st retire rsspon s lb 11 f, ty ? A Yes, si r* - 19 Q Okay? ' A Yes, air, .' 20 Q Mow, X ara sorry I Interrupted you I didn't menu to do that;. A That is all vio 'Also made chemicals that In the. cher:less.! industry are called intermediate chemicals. These are che'.nicals that don`t in themselves end up used by an ultimte. consumer, but they are used to make other more useful ' chemicals,, 21 0 vh.?.f. was the name of the plant that .you wore attached to? WATER PCB-SD0000035154 9 A Thera wares two plants# 22 Q Two? A X.o addition to the one that I 7*n; assigned as plant manager, that Is throe, total# Q What: were they? A There la a plant in St* Louis X referred to, Monsanto, and the John, F. Queen. ?A Q Could you give tags the dates on that that you were--' A I was there from 1951 until 1965. . X was then transferred to the plant In a village e a 11e. d So.uge t ,, 111 ino i s # 25 0 la that the noise of the plant then? A The plant is called the William <1. Krurawriah pl.aat. 26 0 Jioiys go &h$&d, the third one? - A Ta& third cue is the Anniston pleat in Anniston, Alabama. 27 Q Cive ros the dates of those last two plants? A Iho Krummrich assignment vas from l?"--no, I was' in error on the first one--th first rae X should have said 1951 to 1964. The Kruminrich plant was from 1964 to 1965, and the Anniston plant from 1965 to the end of 1969* '> o Q And, I sen. ' WATER PCB-SD0000035155 A Yes, December, *69, Q Wow than, 1 take it you were not trained as a chemist? A That i:< correct 1 *im a chend cal engineer by training. Q That is the difference between a pract J.cin; ' chemist and. a chemical engineer? A The chemical engineer has the same basic chemical education, but be has in addition, a move through background in the equipment it tab.as to process the chemicals - Q All right, now In your training as an engineer, did you get your degree in chemistry? A I'io, sir, In chemical engineering. Q I see, .' bin.ee 1970, what has bean your job? . A prom 1970 until 1976. . Q hbat date, in *70, can you give m that? A January 1, . Q Just the beginning? A The beginning of the year, 1970, until about March 1, 1976, X had a couple; of titles, but the name job. The Initial title was Manager, Environmental. Protection,' and it %me eventually changed to Manager, Environmental Co a t xo 1, and. my- - WATER PCB-SD0000035156 H 35 Q Where did you do that 'work? A In St. Louis. . I have a correction to make There was a. third title X picked up, Manager, Production Acceptability. 36 Q TLo titles changed, did your work change? A No, sir, the principal-*" ^7 t\ 61:111 worked out~~ ' .61:5,11 worked cut of. St, Louis, and the principal responsibility was related to a product line referred to eventually commonly as Folychlorinated Biphenyls, 33 q PCI\*s? A 'V,^ r j w <* . 39 Q l`o7ychlorinated Biphenyls, PC1Y* s from now on? A Tea, ' 40 Q And if X call li: PVC or i'VU's or PB0*s, I am talking about FCB * s. ' I.. REESE: Well,, you better call it by the correct naive, because It will be helpful, ' 41 Q 3o that we understand each other, there is nothing about PCV*s in this lawsuit. yrp,y , 4? 0 If; there1 WATER PCB-SD0000035157 12 A Not to my knowledge. 43 Q' Met to mine either. Well, so we .undersfc^md one another* with that, and if you have any trouble with that Keith, let me know * K&. &EESE: X will, Howard. 4-4 Q How the Monsanto Chemical Comp&xiy, what is the, correct name of It? . A Monsanto Company. 4It C> Docs it have divisions? A It has divisions, hut wa don'&, wo do use the word division, but It Is, we also use the word* operating unit; s * . 46 Q Civsy, they taean abci.it the ssuto thing? A .1. suspect that . . 47 Q Ail rig!)c, are they just part of the same general corporation, or are they separate corporations? * A. They are part; of the can corporation. AS Q Mow what operating unit have you been attached to?. A At what period of tirao? - *41 Q Moll, X don't know. Can you hull, nc, generally? \ Tom X don't believe I can recall t.V.e specific dates. WATER PCB-SD0000035158 13 but iu sequence**- Let's just divide it from 1970 and 1970 back* ' All right, before 1970 I was tn the Organic Division, Organic Chowtcals Division * Early in X970, 1 was still with the Organic. Chemical Division , and about the mid- '70 * s, it: bncaree, wa re organised, and it was referred to as Monsanto Industrial {'.I'ew.icals Company. In 1976, I was transferred to the Monsanto Chcaaicai Intermediates Company* ' Honsanto Chemical Xnteres^dltt ben 1 Xofcattnarlinfces Company Did you continue doing the. sane typo of work from 1970 to the- present? Up through 1976, 1 what occurred in *76? `. In '76, I x>m$ assigned an entirely new group of chemicals for which I had environmental and product safety responsibilities. . Explain what you bad been doing before and after *76 as to the type of chemicals? . From 1970 fro 1.976, I was responsible for the FCB*o, in 3.9/6 ,, WATER PCB-SD0000035159 iK 55 Q A1one, took all your time? . A 90-plus percent of tny trims* There were occasions when 1 would, foacause of my bsicV.grotmi1. , would be consulted on other chemical a, but tha p rismx y re spons lbI, 1 ity xm s F CB * s * In 576, FCB's were assigned to soother individual, and I was given a different group of chemical al* together. . 56 Q X see. Did you lose contact with PCB*s at that point in 9 7 6 ? '' A Hot total, but quite a bit. X was not involved dally. 57 Q All right,' what did your rcspoas.ibij.ity continue to he with PCB9s after 1976? A As an individual to consult with regarding what happened in the. past, because of rayTM- 5 8 Q Ea pex iencc? k ibq: o sure experience. . 59 Q Between January 1 of '70 end I1'Arch, of *76, what were your duties? A in a very general way they were, X was responsible for harping informed of any activities associated with PCT-1 e so that I could properly inform the. proper WATER PCB-SD0000035160 ra3i?.ageraciit people, within Mmxsanfca* and at the same time, I was expected to mike recocrmenOatleas regarding what. Monsanto should do, ,Hcv that is pretty general. Yes. Gan you tell me more specifically what you did? X, of course,, tried to keep 'up -with anything that appeared In print, whether it be the popular proses or the technical journals. 1 attempted as best 1 could to keep very closely with the various disciplines Involvedt such as medical, toxicology, industrial hygiaacT chemistry4 applications of FOB * s, : . I was also expected to be familiar 30n.ewb.afc p with the marketplace where they ware sold, what kinds of uses generally they were put to. ' T. was also expected to stay abreast of dev lopatent a that happened in government, and at* the universities. Just: to summarisse, was titin mostly your* responsibility with respect to the problems that had occurred with the. use of TCB'3? At the' time, - In the environment ? WATER PCB-SD0000035161 \A A At the time. It a matter of problems so much as a teat tor of discovery and presence 6A Q Yon did have problems that you dealt with during that tImc, did yon not? A I don't know the meaning of the word ''problems" from your point of view f>5 -Q Well, you had claim;* freta peopJe that they had been Injured; that the product was dangerous, that the product was torsic and causing trouble and lawsuits, that is what I am referring to A Wo* X never had that. . The accusations .wre la the popular press, but X never had anybody call me and say he was hurt and what should 1 do . 00 Q X didn't ask you If they called yen* but did you .relate that to a particulax type of problem'? A. If I heard of such a situation, 7, would try to respond 67 Q Ur?.3. it your responsibility to take charge of that sort of thing and direct anti coordinate the activities in, Moasan.t'0? A Coordiivjta is the appropriate word, yes, air (if Q Pardon joo? A. O-vv'diaota is. the appropriate vot A WATER PCB-SD0000035162 .17 69 Q What departments did you coordinate in your working during tent period? A Honsanto 's Hectical. Department, Department, Ksrkefciog Department, Legal Department; , Distribution Department;, Public Relations Department, Advertising Department, Personnel Department, all departments, reall]| 70 Q Pealing with PCB* s? A leSf, air, . 71 Q. How then, did you take somebody, take over somebody's job on January 1, 1970? A tie 7 2 0 Hot? vna it sot; up then? . A' X don * t know that 1 under stand run? was It: set up . 73 Q T/Ct mo' strike the question,, . 1 take It it was a new activity that you took over a.vd took charge of? A Correct, 74 Q Prior to that ttron,' them had bean nobody coordinating the work on PGB' s that you then tool: over, is tbefc correct? 'A' Correct;, ' . 75 Q Rhat I vi a at to knov? is, who all on,3 doing" the. work that yon did, started doing, on .kv.iucr/ I, 1970. with the WATER PCB-SD0000035163 Mon santo Company? . A In January, the level of activity was net a 3 great as eventually it developed, What little activity was occurring -vaa handled by each, by rap re. sent stive b of each of these departmenta X mentioned, previously. 76 Q That you have tailed about? A Yes, . To whom did they report on that' problem, than? A It: depended on the person, and the department he belonged to, . for example. If It was n. medical question* it umuM go to the Medical Director who was head of thv Medical Department, and he reported to Che Vice Presi dent of Administration very high In the organization. If if was a marketing problems they would report that, that situation would go to the Marketing Manager, who eventually after several levels reported to the. business Director, the Business Group Director, ' If It was the Research Department Department, it would go to the chemist involved with TCB's who would in turn, report it to the. research organization. 78 Q Mow diet If eventually finally funnel to one Individual Myher up? WATER PCB-SD0000035164 A Yes, sir, it eventually did, 79 Q And who wea that? . A It would be the General Manager c> the Orgaiilc Piv-tsi<m. 80 Q What was his .name? ' A Howard Mlnckler* 81 Q St* Louis? A He used to be in St, Louis, . . 82 Q For vhat period did he head v.p timt activity of 1! of these various problems? A X don1t recall exact dates. Be was in that position In 1970, and it continued until the reorganisation took place in which, the Monsanto Industrial Chemicals Company was foresee!. 83 Q When was that? A As 1 best recall, that was *73, 1973-74, somewhere in . there* 84 q It was after you took over, thoul" ' A Yes, sir, ` . - 8*5 Q Bow about before January 7? A Yes, sir, Mr, Minckler was the General Manager before 1970, but I don't personally recall when, he was assigned . that position, sometime in the -Kiddle to late '60's, 86 Q When did Monsanto first start ranking ICS's? WATER PCB-SD0000035165 20 A Monsanto as an entity purchased the manufacturing unit that was making PCB's in. about X934~193S* 87 Q What was th.it entity'? A Swat* Chemical Company* $8 Q Mhere? A Of-Anniston* Alabama* 89 Q And thereafter they started? A And Monsanto continued the manufacture of PCVs from that point on. 90 Q Wliffit was your first responsibility with respect to PCB's? A My direct resporxsfb'ility began whe.n X reported to tb/s Anniston plant a plant manager -in 1963* 91 0, Was tlii.3 PCB manufactured, at that plant? A Yes* sir* . 92 0 You call, that the Anniston plant? A Yet., -` 93 <1. V.Qvi do you spell that? .. 94 Q V.Ti-are was it located? ' A Ann 1 sion, A1 abam 95 Q Is that; in the same general vicinity as t-b.a company which Mone-mxto purchased? WATER PCB-SD0000035166 A That: was the facility* 96 Q That was it? A Ye & * 97 Q What also is ai/mufactured in that plant besides OCR9s2 A' At what point in teixrie? 98 Q When you first went there ? A he manufactured chlorine and canetie soda,* v& Mamjfacturel biphenyl, phosphorus peta sulfide*` 99 Q Let me interrupt you, was that plant confined to manufacturing chemicals that went into tlm PCB!s? A hot confined, no, wa mds-- 100 Q But largely did that, you said chlorides? A Mot largely, if X, about half oil the capacity went to FCB's*' 1.01 Q Did that plant continue to raanul^ctiu:: PCB's as long as you were, there? ' A As lone, as I was there, yes, sir, 102 Q What; other plants would Monsanto bare, manufactured FOB'a in? A the Eruimrich plant at Snugat, Illinois* 103 <Q Any other plants? A Mos sir, - .1.04 Q Those, two? WATER PCB-SD0000035167 103 Q Here you ever connected with the Krutranrich plant? A "fes, air, 106 Q When was that? . A That was 1964 to 1965* . 107 Q What period of tiros were you at the Anniston plant? Tell roe again, if you told met ,. A 1963 to the end of 1969,, XG8 Q Did you have any responsibility with respect to PC'B*a ' prior to *64? ' A 1 am confused about the date that implies that 1 had responsibility from *64 to *65. '. 109 Q Hell, you told roe that you went to the Kruraarich plant in '64? A lh,ifc i?i correct* 110 Q Did you have any, X believe you told me, but what connection did you have prior to tbet ktew, then? A I am totally confused new* . 111 Q Well,' tell oie when you first bad any responsibility with reapocfc to FCB's, tell me, again? A It was v?hen 1 took over the rannagfce&enfc of the Anniston plant: in 196.5* 112 Q All right, you did not have any i;t risibility at t?.-? ' WATER PCB-SD0000035168 23 Krunsnrleh plant? A' That is correct* JUL /tod yon did not have miy contact really PCS s prior to * 64,- X mean, *65? A X had contact, but not responslbIXifcis* 1X4 Q Cicay, what was your contact prior to that? A We lip X was a user, for example, of equipment that contained FC!3*3* . 115 Q What do you mean, in your capacity as an employee of Monsanto? A Yes, sir. 116 Q You don't Tf:an at home? Ho* Bo. Well, X don't know at 'boras* I may have, and didn't know it. 117 Q Well, go ahead and tell me how long that, what that wan, that contact? A That contact is typical of an' industrial plant in which varieties of equipment are used, such as compressors, and electrical transformers, and all kinds of heat equipment, and on occasion, X would be involved 'with an operation that had a piece of equipment, that used PGB's. ' 118 Q Okay, ' WATER PCB-SD0000035169 A So that would be say contact . - 119 Q X see* Mow Aid you bmm any kind of a program prior to 1970, January, which studied the toxic effects of PCB5s? HR.* COGHRAhh Howard, you seeim ha personally,. or Monsanto? X2Q Q Monsanto, A Yes, Konsauto had a program that was typical of the period, 121 Q Just tell .roe what It - was? A It was the testing of a material, FCB's In this instance to get enough, information that would guide us In the proper methods of handling, labeling, storage, and this included the battery of tests that are gtv-m to Indus tri? chemicals which are commonly referred to as the. acute tcud.city testing, In which the ?roacunt of material that will be toxic to half of a group of: test antmls as determined, and Is "related to non-ccot.iota waterial a. There axe tests conducted to defcarsdae irritation of akin, irritation of the eyes, irritation of the r o s p Ira t j ry ey o t cm * WATER PCB-SD0000035170 122 Q Are you talking A Xn C*-tA XiTif;day yes There were, In the case cl v'CB's, as 1 tesvsT.bar. , alto cons chin tests conducted with human volunteers:^ Q When. did that program start the testing program? A As best I remember, in the *30' s~ MO1 a period, and began some repeat tests which were mg-de in the ' 50 * &. n , Q Was It an ongoing continuing thing,, or what? A It 'was a situation where we would conduct a test, get the results, and take the appropriate labeling and handling action, and then ns the technology and testing would change through the years, thote was a repeat cl the test to see if the data was the same, the information would be tbe same* Q What brought, on the testing program? What: caused .11: to be set up? A I hat j.s norrml, that is done for all chemicals, JUidua* trial chemicals, . 126 Q Who was In charge of thatt during those years? A That would be the Director of Monsanto's Corporate Medical Department, . 127 Q Who was he? m* SEE5JE: What period, Dov-nrd? WATER PCB-SD0000035171 20 128 Q Well, you mentioned '30*s, *40*s, "50*8? A Dr. Ihrmet Kelly wss tbs Director of the Medical Pispart- roe-rjt, nnd he joined Hoasmto at about th&t time In the midale (30?3* 129 Q Is ha still living? A Yes, be is. 130 Q Sfc* Louis? A Yea, sir. 131 '4 Is he still active in that reaponalbility? A He is retired from Monsanto * ' 132 Q Who is in charge of that tasting program after he left It ? Dr. George Roush is now the Director* - Q When did he take over? A 1 don't recall the er.net period, I973-1974, saire'nhere in there* 134 0 Ho still has that responsibility? A Yob. . 0 Were reports made from tine to time of the test results regarding PGB's? . A Yes. '' 136 0 Would you state In a general way what the nature of those reports were? WATER PCB-SD0000035172 u well,, ytrfk the question* . Vera they compiled from time to tim in 'any one place or si volume or book or a ii, .thoes reports? A It would be in th Medical Department' a files; there would be typically summary reports of t:lvs various tests transmitted, via company memorandum, to the people who would have a need to know this information, such aa the aiarwfaoluring people who .manufactured it at the plants, the individuals who would design the labels, what wording should appear on the .product, label* They would receive copies of; this* This would be summary statements prepared and included i.v miy product literature that was prepared to give to pofcen- tin), customers or active customers* . 137 Q But in .a general way, you have * central .location where those reports are collected and kepi: and r,maintained? kj vs, six 136 Q Are they In the: custody and fch cam of the Directors Kelly and Rous?'.? M&, QOGlTJttt: Are you talking shout right now? 139 Q Ue.ll, ware they when Kelly was them, and a?.o they nev-veil, strike Cha question* WATER PCB-SD0000035173 ij'j) Vrlio lias got custody? ME. COCHRAN: Are you talking about right new? 140 Q . Slight now? A, I don't; know -now, 141 Q It would be within the province.oS the Medical Director*.* Department, is that right? Would that he correct or not? A I don't know, right new, I haven't been involved, 142 Q The last time you knew where theyTM" A They were in the Medical Department when I was last involved,. 143 Q Hew long ago was that? - A In 1376. _ 144 Q how you mentioned labeling? A Yc r. ,, 145 Q Do you have any department that works on. labels for this material, PCB* c>? , A Tes, sir. 146 Q ` bluet was that department called? . A Just a small group of people In our Corporation Distr ilm Cion Department which is the department that rxoves the product to the marketplace. WATER PCB-SD0000035174 147 Q I presume they worked oa all labels for all your products? A Yss,, sir. 148 Q What Is that .called? Soros rusroa they hava? A T.hsy probably do, X don't know that it in official. 1 just refer to them as the Labeling Lection* 1 don't: know if that is correct or not* 149 Q Who waa in, charge of the Labeling faction in 1960 to 1?>70? A I can only sp&ak for the period closer to 1970* I don't* 1 can't go back to 3.960* personally. ISO q What was bio name? A lobett Silo. ' 131 Q All right, during that, that was in tha ' SQ's to '70's, hcv? about in the 1970' s? A be is still. 152 q Still the nrm? A Still there, yes, six. ' 153 q The. '60's, did. you hava any input.' with respect: to labeling of X'CB' s? ' A Mo. 154 0 Lid you, after 1970? A V 'O WATER PCB-SD0000035175 30 153 Q January? A Ye s. 156 Q Tfh,at input did you bave? A 1 was involved in tbs additions to the labeling that ware considered necessary, based on new in formation that we were getting, 157 Q So you would modify your labels from fcira to tirae? A Oh, yes. ' ` 158 Q You would be involved in that? A Yes, sir. 159 Q. Are you familiar with the type of label:!,xig that was used with-PCB'a prior to 1970, A Yes, sir. ' 160 Q Would you state to me, please, what type of labeling that you used prior to 1970 for PCB* a? A X are a&stunijng. when you say involved, you mean fcha wording on the labeling? 161 Q Yes, thank you. ' A I. of course don't recall, the exact words, but there ' wera statements there referring to avoiding pro .longed breathing, having adequate ventilation, avoiding skin contact, washing hands thoroughly; those are the key statements as I recall, regarding -safety, product WATER PCB-SD0000035176 31 safety 162 Q 'What particular danger ware you trying to warn of when you said, avoid breathings, adequate ventilation, skin contact? . A Earlier, when 1 mentioned the automatic toxicity tasting the animal studies indicated that the PCS*s could cause skin irritation as well as mucus membrane irritation, and as a result of the animal studies, we extrapolated that the caution that people should not get it on their skin, and avoid breathing too much in the way of numbers, ' This-was the basic piece of: information that led to that wordtog, as well as our plant experience, in which we determined that those individuals that -didn't wear gloves and didn't wash their hands would get the . chopped bands effect, or the reddening of the skin. So we passed that on the customers by putting it ' on the label, 1 163 0 Did this particular department keep, make reports and ~ keep records with 'respect to the types of labels that ware put on PCS'a during the '60*a? A too, sir. ' 164 0 Where sire those, records kept? WATER PCB-SD0000035177 32 A 1 personally do not knew * 163 Q Well, when you were familiar with the, do you know where they wore kept? A 'The labels in which X had a specific interest at the time wore In the possession of Mr, Siko, where ho stored them permanently, or from whore ha retired them, X do not know* They would be on. hies desk or In his desk drawer when. X would arrive in his office, . 166 Q All right, A Tint is all X know, 107 0 Excuse me# was there any other danger, or, yes, any other" danger that you were attempting to warn the public about, or your purchasers with your labels during the *60*8 than what you have seid, breathing, olein contact, - irritation? A. There were no other known dangers, ' 168 Q All right, now you, during that time, you w&j? 'conducting those toxicity tacts? A 'Yeg, sir, 169 Q ]Xa"3og that, the * 60's, did you hnve any testing proTM gram with respect to the transfer of: PCB1 s from one material to the other? WATER PCB-SD0000035178 33 A Not to my knowledge. 170 Q Did you have any testing for the effect of ingestion of PCB's during the '60*0? A During the '60's? In the latter part off the *60*0,. their were some 1ong-1e tm studie s started, 171 Q Would you. be a. little more snoot 5.c when you say the latter part, please? A About 19683 Monsanto started a program which was aimed at trying to dotermine whether or not PCB's could cause any fo-axra to animals and birds, 17?. Q Fy what-~eK<tse me* A Over the long terray not the short tents that 1 talked about `earlier! this is lifetime exposure for the teat anlssalo, for example. 173 Q Are you talking about ingest for.? A Ts.s, sixp feeding studies, 174 Q Tiwt is what 1 mean, .. A feeding; studies, Thtsy tests were started in, as best I ?;ouem,be.r, '68, and as is normal for this kind of testing, we started with preliminary te.pt.T'g to determine what levels of exposure or feed'kvy to us? for the long-term WATER PCB-SD0000035179 34 study,, 173 Q You didn't sot up those tests, did you? A X didn't, no, sir* 176 Q But you are familiar with, then?,? A Yes, 1, that was one of the first things that 1 looked into whan X-- , 177 Q klvat proraptad those tests? A Tb.o tests wer prompted because of tha reports Monsanto received that there were some scientists discovering FOB's in the environment * . Hie question then was raised, they ara there; they probably are there* h u'U 1 confirm that, but if they are there, what harm are they doing, if anything* 170 Q hhal: reports, you say reports fxovi scientists? ' A Yes, the principal reports, there were two reports about: that time, that were known to Monsantot one was a report from the University of Stockholm that the researchers there at: tha university there were detect ing FCB's In many places, including pine needles, 'infant: hair*, as X recall, feathers from an eagle In n rrMseum* . There ware many many samples taken, and PCB's wore alleged to be present, This was one. report that WATER PCB-SD0000035180 33 started this interest* There was another report that ecus out of the livnversity of California at Berkeley, Dr. Robert hlsisbrcu-gh^"-! am not too sure how ha spoils it, R-l-s-er b-K,"0~u-'g"-h> some thing close to that--die reported finding PCB's In the area in which the* bxoxni pelicans nud seals off of southern California inhabit. 17 9 Q Anything else? . A That Is all X can. recall at the moment, the early reports* '. ., 180 Q Those reports inspired this testing? A Yo';P pec, 181 << Hov 'what part of *60 ace you talk lug about,. when, you started this program? You said in *C3 you said the latter part, didn't * you? , A /Is I te.roerabar, X wasn't personally there, so X didn't know? exactly when* .' .32 Q Who ordered this tasting program set up, you know? A This was ordered by Dr. Kelly, and ha told his staff members to design the testing program, and the staff numbera attempted to contact: government agencies as to v?hoi: would be appropriate,; and did nut get .any assistance WATER PCB-SD0000035181 bc'ccuse no government ageacy at the ttee183 Q WU- 36 MR. PXSSS: Lot hte finish his aaswer. HR. COCHRAN: i/sfc him finish his answer* MR. UEESS: What mas his question, Mr. Reporter? THE WITNESS; Fleas* Cih preceding question, as read by the Exporter as follows; ,fWho ordered, this testing program set up, you know?'*) hi. ilEESE; You go ahead and finish your answer Do you want your answer read to you? Hi. XVlWCh I think he i'iniaked it. ' HE. REESE; Before you. interrupted. A I was'trying .fco establish that this was a new field for th industrial chemicals; no precedent was avail" able to guide Monsanto; It was a frustrating experience* 1*34 Q Well, my question was simply who ordered, that was the question,. I think you have answered my question. Wow tell me and wa will get; into that a little later, what had been done; before, and ao a matter of fact, 1 win ask you right now, What hml you had, had you ever had any such testing programs prior to this t:?r;n as to the toxic effect, if any, of ingestion of WATER PCB-SD0000035182 -1? PCS8s in living creatures? , A 11o5 sir, which was typical of all industrial chemicals. 18 5 0 That was PCB' a used for up to the f.icse, what w&ve they? A 1 will attempt to cover nil the u.%.*?, hut 1 am sura 1 won't remember all of them, 186 Q 1 understand* A There were many uses* The Initial use was aa a liquid in electrical equipment to cool the equipment when it is operating* This is referred to as the dic'lectxie. use* As a liquid in. hentina, equipment used t.o convey heat from '& source to a m;e. . 18? Q (las that used in the food industry? ., A It wo s, at one time, 188 0 At what, period of time -was* It used in the food industry?' A J f:1sink it bagnn sometime in the 160*0. X am not. farr.il iar exactly vht.n, and it continued until 1971 or *77, somewhere in them* That was when it was terrain^" t c- d * ' ' 189 Q That i.s when you discontinued sailing to the food industry, 1 nssucrae? . A fell, we dlccont5.aua.cl soiling to the food industry in 3.970,, a!? T. remember. WATER PCB-SD0000035183 36 190 Q That was one of the first things you did, as X f* V-lf T* T ' A Correct., There. t-?as another use in, as a fluid in hydraulically driven equipment,, In. which a fire*resistan fluid was mandatory, . 191 Example? ' A To operate the equipment in a die canting plant where hot molten metal Is manipulated down conveyor systems or handled* these, systems had to have a fire-resistant fluid as distinguished from the mineral oils such as you find, in your automobile brake system, . 192 Q Co ahead, ". A. All right. Those arc the three principal uses in equipment. There wan another category which Monsanto referred to as the plasttcir.o.r use which really moans miscell aneous use* all the other uses. 193 Q Co ahead, '. '' A In those applications* the PCB'o were blended "with other chemicalg to provide certain opalitlas such as re. si stance to acids-* resistance to water * long wearing ' f3.-om abrasion and rubbing, They did not peel or flake or dry out; long-la sting WATER PCB-SD0000035184 39 properties in plastics, caulking materials, paints and coatings, lacquers. There was another use that was rather unique, which was one of the zmny ingredients used, in the tasking . of the carbonless copy paper--you may recall--this is the paper that involves two surfaces facing each other, and the ballpoint pen breaks the minute capsules and releases the ink to make the imprint on the second copy. I think i have covered most of the applications in a very broad way here. 194 q All right. I'Tow then, with respect to the Medical Department-, what files did they keep on, what did they put in the files 'with re.speck to FCB's? A I axa net familiar with everything they kept in their . files, and 1 am assuming you are talking now in 1970? 195 0 Yea. . A I, do know that they kept in those files the results of any testing regarding FCB*s they were aware of that -they conducted through their sponsorship and initiative, or read in the literature. 196 Q New you. mentioned, or I asked you about the food industry. What applications did PCS*s have to the food WATER PCB-SD0000035185 40 Industry? A Hono directly that 1 know o-~oh, 1 am sorry* 197 Q Bow was it used in the food industry? A I ara sorry, I had forgotten it was used as a medium for transferring heat in packing and cooking equipment In the food industry, 198 Q Bow was that done? A A typical installation involves a. reservoir of PCB's In rather remote parts of a factory, or a food plant which is heated by say an oil or ga3 fire to verify temperatures which the KD * s could withstand, and the hot FCB#s were then piped to the point of use, whether it be a cooking kettle-** 199 Q X see, . A Or an oven, and, to heat the contents to perform the . cooking, - 200 Q Well, nr that the food then would come in contact with the pipes through which ran the hot PCB's and brans- ferred the heat front the FCB*s to the food, heated the - f.oo d, in o ther word a ? A The food would not corns in contact with the pipes them** selves,, The pipes would be under some plate of steel, let1 o S3yr. for example, and the loaves of bread would be WATER PCB-SD0000035186 r above. 41 201 Q How about; liquids? A Viquidss, In sote Instances, the pipes containing RGB's would be in the liquid* C 202 Q Right, so if you had a leak it would get in the food? A If there was, yes, I was thinking-"-*yes* 203 Q All right,, now I want to ask you some questions, Mr, Papageorge* am I, pronouncing that correct? A That is okay, ' 204 Q What is better, what is correct? . r A Papageorgn, that is what I say, I don't know that it makes it mij- aiore right, 203 Q Mr, Pap&georg, did anyone else in the country make RGB's other than Monsanto in a substantial way? . A* 1 don't know what yon mean by "substantial", 206 Q 5027 of it or something like that? ' A Sonmone else sa&ke 907,? 1 am sorry, *.07 Q Bid anyone, else make FBG* s? - - M!U BEESE: PCB's. MR. yoimc-i You correct me m. REESE s X will* r ; ij*i('.C^TrSd that on occasion WATER PCB-SD0000035187 42 Chemical, Geneva Chemical, were reported as having wade PCB's I also am aware, that some PCB- s were imported from the Europeanproducers. 1 have no way of personally knowing how much and for what periods of time, and X cannot think* 208 Q Would it be fair to say that Monsanto had 90% or more of the market of PCB'e in this country during all of the time that it manufactured them? A I don't know that 1 e&n~~90~-X don't know that I can support 9G% 209 Q You don't know about that? A We were a major producer is really all X know* 2X0- Q Do you know of miy other major producers? .- A Mo, sir, not in the country* .. 21,1 Q Wow as a matter of fact, you didn't have much foreign competition on account of tariffs and that sort of - thing, did you? ' ~ A "X am not qualified to say whether tariffs would-be-- 212 Q Weil, leave, the "tariffs1* out of that question* Did you have any substantial foreign competition? A X don11 know * 213 Q You don't know of any? WATER PCB-SD0000035188 A3 A No, X don't know the effect of the foreign material in this country on Monsanto's,, 214 0 Now is there more than one type of PCB's? ' A We11, if depends upon your definition of Polychlorinated Biphenyl * 215 q PCB's. A The material in industry has never been a pure chemical product,,: It has always been a mixture. 214 Q Right. A Of a family of chemicals. 217 Q How then, how many different--did you have a particular, any trade name for PGB' s that you. manufactured? X was asking you about a trade name. . . A There were, several trade names that belonged to Monsanto, 218 ({ Has Aroclor one of them? A Yes, sir, 219 Q What is the correct pronunciation of that? A Aroclor, - A~r-o**c**l~a~r-, . ' 220 Q Poes that also have a name of ihorrainal? . A Theratnal is the name applied to the mixture sold for heat transfer' purposes. 221 Q Xo it confined to that? A Yes, sir. WATER PCB-SD0000035189 44 222 Q Iff the chemical makeup any different than that of the Arealots? X I don't want to confute you. Xhe Arcclcrs that ware designed for the electrical turn were, generally of higher qualify than the Aroclore used for beat transfer purposes. This does not. mean that many times a high quality material was not sold as a bent transfer fluid. 223 Q All right, but Theralnal is the term used for Arocloru that was used for heat transfer? A Correct. 224 q j)o you describe your Aroclora by numbers? A Correct. ` 225 Q And how about Ho. 1254, what Is that? A The 1254 designates a mixture of PGB's in which the chlorine content averages typically 5-47, by weight of the total mixture. ' 226 Q So that the last two numbers in the number designation of Arealor indicate the chlorine in the content by volume? A by weight. 227 Q By weight? A Ye a, s tr. WATER PCB-SD0000035190 45 228 Q What do tbs first two number,*3 refer to? A That was arbitrarily chosen to represent Biphenyl Chlorinated Biphenyl, 229 0 V/h&';: shout ArocXor 5460? ' A That is not a PCB. '. 230 Q It is not? . A Ho, sir* 2.31 0 iJhat is it? ' A That is a Chlorinated Terphenyl *. 232 Q Wh&fc is the difference between the. twof as to use? A The Terphenyls were never used for the major uses that the Chlorinated, that the PCB's were put to.' For example5, they were not used in electrical equipment,, host' transfer?, hydraulic systems. '.The Tcrphcnyls generally found their way in the . ' miscellaneous- use in which a solid material was required as distinguished from the liquids that the PCB's are. 233 Q All right, so they would be more solid, In other words? A Yea, sir, they are heavy. 234 Q The 1254 is a liquid? A Correct. 235 Q Does it over come in a, does it ever become solid? A hot to' my knowledge. X have never seen it. ' WATER PCB-SD0000035191 46 236 Q Are you familiar with Curaar? . 4 I have heard of the expression# 237 Q iCbafc is Cumar? .. A Wall, to the .bast of my knowledge, as X understand it, it. is a tirade name, which belongs to some chemical company, and I am not certain just who# X believe It is Seville Chemical, I am not certain. And as X understand it, it is a resin# 238 Q A what? A Resin, r-e^s-i-n, a plastic kind of material, and that is all X really know about It# 239 Q Ik) you know that: Arcelor is used in that? A \Jhether It %m& used in Cutn&r or not in the * 60' e, I . have heard the expression Cuxaar used in a different way from what I described to you.. X cm told that; it is used to describe a material that Is used for coating. ' 240 Q Right, but: my question is, did you know that Aroclor was used' in the manufacture and makeup of Cuinar. ME. C&GHRAH: Are you talking about now, at this movant? 241. 0 Vet now, In the '60*5? WATER PCB-SD0000035192 47 A Oh? I vias never aware of it in the ' 60's. No, I did not know anything about it. 24?, Q 1. didn't cce&n what you knew about in the '60's, but 1 want to ask you did you know, If in the '60's, Aroelor %-ms used in Cuarar? A I was told this by soma attorneys in Monsanto. 243 Q Then did you first learn that? A 1970, middle of 1970, about March, April, is the best I recall, 244 q X take it you had nothing to do with the sale of this product? , A That is true, 245 Q Cr the-'- ' I#., CCE8Alik IThJLch product are you talking about? 246 Q Axoelor, the FCB'a? . A Then you say nothing to do, 1 don't know what you cover by that. 247 Q Well, new, you tell ma, did you have anything to do with the sale of it;? A If by "sale" you are talking about packaging and loading it on trucks and sending it to a customer, if that is tha sequence, of events, I was involved in the early part. WATER PCB-SD0000035193 48 Arid later, starting in 1970, I was in my coordinating job, X was aware of some of the marketing .iu:fcivlfcia, not allt but some, of them* 243 9 In the early part, you -are talking about in the '60's when you were chief chemist? A I was at the Anniston plant, 249 Q At the Anniston plant? . A Correct * 230 Q Axi4 at that time, you had something to do with labeling, you assisted in that, is that what you are tailing me? A Yes, sir, 251 Q Aim that would contain warnings and that sort of thing m to any toxic effects or dangers about the product? A Yes, sir, 232 Q Did you not have to know for what uses this, or what purposes this Arcelor was, and FOB's were being used for, in order to Kick a proper label? A {.Jot necessarily. The proper methods of handling had nothing to do with It, and used-"* MR. FEKSE: Howard, let him finish his answer, please. 2:53 9 X mm sorry, you go ahead and finish. Did you finish? WATER PCB-SD0000035194 A X believe go* 254 Q Ail right;, who, in your company then sold Aroclor to the people who imde Onroar? A I do not know* 255 Q Old you have any responsibility for instructing the Sales Department oil your company as to the proper uses of FCB's? A Mot proper uses, no. 255 Q Did anyone in your company advise the Sales Department as to what the proper uses for PGB's were in the 1960's? A X am not av?sra; 1 don't know* 257 0 Xo your answer the same as to the 1970's? . A In 1970, we terminated the sales of PCB's to these . miscellaneous uses, if that is part of instructing the ' sales people, yes, in 1970, wa did instruct* 258 o Yon started in by 'ba"s yourself? A Well, X was part of a. group of people involved, yes* 259 Q Do you know whether they ware given such instructions prior to you starting to instruct them? ' A I do not know* . 200 Q Whose job was that if it had been done? A It would, depend really on the situation. If it were a nodical situation, it would come from the Medical WATER PCB-SD0000035195 Director; if it say a chemical situation* it would come, from the research people- 261 Q Well* whoso job would it have been to advise the Sales Department with respect to say the toxic effects of FCB'c A It would be the Medical Director's responsibility, 262 Q Okay, were there any patents issued for i'GP'a? A Yes, 263 Q What patents were issued? A X x'ecall n patent that was issued to the Central Electric Company, 1 don't remember the dates for the use of FCB* in electrical equipment. And as bast a& 1 racall, there was another patent: issued to fcha Mat.lon.al Cash Register Company for the use of PCDfs as an ingredient In the. carbonless copy paper, 264 Q Merc any patents issued on. PC.B's In,a';, on the product itself, not: the applications-of it? . A Hot: to my knowledge, ' 265 Q How about the. company you bought that mad?- TCR' a did they have? A Hot to ray knowledge, , 266 Q Is that a patentable thing, that .Comula? - A I am not a patent authority, hut the cheralstry is so WATER PCB-SD0000035196 51 basic I would suspect it isn't. 267 Q How about trademarks., do you have trademarks for any of your named products? A Yes, the trademarks as I recall ware registered. 268 Q Is Aroclor registered with tha trademark? A X believe so, yes. 269 Q Were separate trademarks issued for the different types of Aroclor that you sold? A Hot that X recall, no. 270 Q Just the same Aroclor? ' A Correct. 271 Q How about Thermln&l? A Correct, Therminal. 272 Q Were any other trademarks issued for mry other Aroclor than Thermion! and Aroclor? ' A X find the question puaaling. Ml,. GQCIWMi Issued to Monsanto? 273 Q Yes. MR, REESE: You wars! to hear the question, Bill? MR, YOUMG: Let me rephrase if, 274 Q Did Monsanto saemre a trademark for any other name that WATER PCB-SD0000035197 applied to Aroclox', FCB's, X taean? A All right:f 1 think I know now* There was another trademark or a couple that 1 recallf Satouvoc. 275 Q Whst was that? A That was a fluid used in vacuum pumps, vacuum systems which contained PCB' a. They were, not 100% PCB' s. There is another trademark which is Monsanto * & called Fydr&ul which was used for a line of hydraulic fluids which contained PCB's as one of several ingred ients 276 Q How when was the first claim for loss made because of the use of PCB's? ME,. REESE: If you know,. A X don' t know. 277 Q You heard your lawyer tell you how to answer that ME. REESE: Ho, didn't tell him to answer. ' A That was the answer I arrived at. 278 Q T.'Jbo knows about that? A It would bo our legal staff at Monsanto 279 Q When was the first claim that: you know of that? WATER PCB-SD0000035198 M9L* CGCHRAM Against Monsanto? 280 Q Right, A I could be wrong, but: ns best ns X resell. It was some dairy farmers in Ohio who filed a claim against Monsanto in *73--- *70, *72, somewhere in that period. X have forgotten. 281 q That was the first one you heard of:? A That is the first 1 recall,. as best: as X recall. 282 Q Did you have any prior to fcht*fc time? had you received any complaints regardsug the itvsprc?: of PGA*a ora fclua environment, including O'rnnal ll.iX?? ' A X don't: know that X would call them cojnpl^.tnts, hut I had read reports, For example, X mentioned earlier U:o University of:' Berkeley report, from Dr, F.lsobro'sgb about; the. pelicans and the acal a in Hall font.la. 283 Q That was In '68? - A '68, yes, sir. 284 0 What did you do after you road tin'to reports, if . anything? A That Is what triggered our: fcoricity study program, t'.he expanded study ptogtsm. 285 0 What did you inclines In tbs': ter. tc..* Vy study or pro grass? WATER PCB-SD0000035199 54 A 1 don * t know that X understand what you me&n by ''include". 286 Q Well, you said expanded, wh&t did you include that you hadn5t inoludnd be to r e ? A They were long-term feeding studies which covers the normal life span of the rat; the feeding studies on leghorn chickens and also, a reproduction, study on rats and chickens, three generations reproduction study on the rats, 287 Q When ware those studies done? A The work started In 1960, and the final reports were available in about 1972 or so, 288 Q You liad interim reports? A Yes* . 289 Q Available? A Yes. 290 Q From time t:o time? . A Yes. - 291 Q During that period, whnfc were Use results of those tests? * A That tests involved three Arcelor materials, the Acoelor 1242, and the Aroclor 1254, and Aroclor J.260. As I. remember the leva is of feed to to t he animals WATER PCB-SD0000035200 53 f were two part.a per million, ten parts par million, and 100 parts per million in the daily diet of the test animals for the total length of the study,. 292 Q Two, ten, and what? C A 100. Now those are extremely high levels fox an industrial chemical and related to food. 293 Q What were tba results? - A In the rats, the higher chlorinated materials in, Arcelor 125A and Arcelor 1260 showed a decrease in weight gain and enlarged livers, which 1 &?n fold by the medical experts would be expected for this hind o material* 294 Q ^ou could have expected that, in other words? A Yes, the livers X am fold Is the organ that tries to cope with this strange material, and that is why it is enlarged. The Arcelor for the. chickens, bh ravers was true*"-not reverse*'"-'but the At odor 1242 had an effect on their eggshell thi.cluness. 295 0 Anything else,? A 1 don't recall any others. c 296 Q Mew who bas those reports? '_ WATER PCB-SD0000035201 56 A 1 don't personally know at th rocroant* 297 Q Who conducted these tests, the Medical Department;? They conducted them? A ibe Industrial Bio Test laboratory?*. 298 Q Is that an independent outfit? A Yes, sir. 299 Q Where are they located? A Northbrook, X11tnoi$. 300 Q Still in business, are they? A 1 think they ore still an entity; they are not active, 301 Q When you were coordinator in "70, dJ/i you have copies of these, reports? A 1 would get copies of the intertat reports and 1 have got, I received at the time, at the end of each study, the final reports, copies of the find xipcvts. 302 0 how what other tests were wade? MR, CQGhMN: mien? 303 Q At any t lrr>e, MR. QJGliMl-h By whoai? 306 Q By Mon nan?: o,, A There was a study with bo. agio dogs. WATER PCB-SD0000035202 r>; 305 Q What ? A Beagle dogs* 306 Q All right* A But I never personally nvw<?x saw the end results of that report* 307 Q When was that done? A 1 ara going to say since I was reassigned In. 1974, it must, have been 17 5 ? 7 6 g. in that per leu! of time * 308 Q Did your company make any other testa of the effect* of PGB's oil living creatures than what you have already described in 1960 or 1970? A '60 or '70, 1 think X covered theca all* I think I.covered all that I recall* 309 Q Did you coma- to mks any tests prior to 1960 of the toxic effects or the effects on living creatures of this material? A The tests that I mentioned earlier., the acute toxicity test itself, skin tests, -eye tests, the I.D-50, 310 Q When was that? A As I remember, there was some in the '30's, 'AO's, seme in the '501o, repeat in the *50's 311 Q Those are the. tests that were made by the Medical Department? WATER PCB-SD0000035203 MJ A Sponsored by, they themselves didn't do it. They would have contracted It, 312 Q When X say Monsanto funking, tests, 1 r&eU.y rvean tests that they Bright have hired to he done by Ilk this Northbrookville group, A J-vbi 313 Q Now including that part, ixi the answers, were there any other tests that: you havea' t described? A Not that I recall, 314 Q What did you do with respect to directing or warning your Sales boparimaat to pass the word to tha aisstorrers of your test results? ' MR, COCHRAN; Nhafc period-of tim -are you talking about? 3X5 Q At .any time, A Nell, the procedure was that any time anything of . significance developed, we would convey that to the customers, the active customers at that point 1st time. When the final reports were submitted in the. '72" 3 period, by that time, the infotaution had been re leased to the government agenci.es concerned, and had been pub lie trod, and re Lad already ciubnrted on a withdrawal WATER PCB-SD0000035204 program from much of the marketplace. So the evolving situation \w.c such that the final reports were really isvxt1 1 iroacfcic; everyhody th&t needed to know was already Inform'd. 316 Q Did you know that PCB's were used as a part of a lining for silos,, the part of the material that was used to coat interiors of silos? ' HR. CQCISlAil; At vjh&C time? A At what point: In. time? 317 Q At any time V . A Yes, 1 was eventually Informed that this was a us, yes. ' 318 Q When was that? A 1 believe the first .inkling that 1 personally had occur fed in 1970 .-about March, or Apx i.l, and that was sort of a vague indication, no.thing specific It was a speculation on somebody's pert.. That was tin* first piece of information X personaily hod. . 319 Q What informal'-ion did you get, what her it: was vague or riot, what was it? ' A Well, if was, as best I recall, X. got a telephone call from a Dr. Hill who was an co-ploy or of otic of the g*mci WATER PCB-SD0000035205 00 in the State of Ohio that is involved with monitoring and managing the milk industry* 320 Ok Board of Health, something like that? A Something like that* 1 am not sure of the exact agency title. The man was, but he was trying to become informed, and he mentioned to me that some laboratories had determined the presence of PCB*s in some milk, and in tbs conversation he speculated that it might be coming from a coating in some silos. As I-recall, that was the first time 1 had heard of that application, 321 Q How that would be you, personally? . A Personally, correct, . 322 Q When was that? A I believe it was March, 3.970, somewhere in there, 323 Q March of '70, That is right after you took your job . aa coordinator? .' A Yes, early in. *70, 324 Q To your knowledge, did anyone else have any information regarding in your plan, regarding problems with milk or anything of that sort? A To my knowledge, no one else had, no. WATER PCB-SD0000035206 61 325 Q You mentioned a claim from some dairy producers in Ohio* what was that? A. I am not sure of the timing. It was after this call from Dr* Hill,, and 1 just don't recall when it became an officially filed claim* 326 Q Well, I don't mean that, I mean the information regard ing-- A Information? .. 327 Q Yes.* A Well, it started with Dr* Hill's call, and then evolved ever the next year or so, and the picture became clearer as to which dairy farms were involved, and the like* 328 Q Did you investigate that, and by "you", 1 mean someone under your control or anybody at: Monsanto? ' A Oh, yes, we were of course interested. I personally visited the two farms. 329 Q What did you find with respect to the silos? A 1 don't.quite know how to answer. They were inactive. They were placed out of service* 330 Q Did you examine them? ` A 1 looked in them. I climbed In them. There was a, what appeared to be the remainder of a coating. It was a worn surface. Parts of it WATER PCB-SD0000035207 62 appeared If; had a coating on it* The coating appeared to be a dark color varnish type of appsarao.es. X bad conversations with the dairy farrears there* 331 Q How what did you learn as to what the coating had been? A They used the expression Curaar, which was quite common with them., 332 Q Had you heard that expression before? ' A Yesj, 1 had heard this from our attorneys who had been involved with these* 333 Q Other claims regarding Cumar? . A I believe it was these two claims, these two farms. And X went out to just; personally get familiar with the situation* .' 334 Q v/h-it did you learn as to whether Omar contained your products Arealor? A X took samples of the scrapings off the wall, and it did ' contain, that particular- group of samples did contain FCb's in, the coating* 333 Q You took samples? ` A Yes. 336 Q You found that there ware PCB1s in there, is that right? A Yes, WATER PCB-SD0000035208 63 337 Q I'tev then, did you then conduct any kind of an investiga tion or inquiry as to where those PGB's come from? A I personally dida11* 338 Q 1. d.r-n'v. raeao. you personally* I mean, you know, your company, or to your knowledge* people under your control as' coordinator of this effort? A X don't personally know what our Legal Department did with some of this information* 339 Q The question I want to know* Mr. Papngeorge, is whether or not you, as coordinator of the effort of these X'CB problems* made any effort at that time to determine where the PCB * s , where the. PBC's cams from"-have I got that right:? MT. COCMS.AB: PCB's, you had it right the first . time. 340 Q You. found that the. material that lined the silos over in Ohio where you were getting a claim? A The effort that 1 made was my going back at some point la time in this period, X went hack to the manager of theproduct that markets this product and asked him if he was-- 341 q Markets Arcelor? WATER PCB-SD0000035209 64 A Markets Aroclor for these, miscellaneous uses, and I asked hltn was he aware that vie sold anything to anybody that looked like related to the dairy farms and silos and the like*. And at that time he told me no, the record doesn't show anything like that That was the extent of my personal involvement, because this was at that time an isolated instance with v/:y fragmentary information, not enough to really do anything with, to know where to go net. . 342 Q AH right:, did you ultimately find out that the PCB's in. the mterial lining those silos came from Monsanto? A ho, X didn't, 343 Q You didn't? A No, X never did do that. - . 344 q what: was your purpose in going over there? A Well, this was a now development, new to Monsanto. We, Monsanto associated with PCB's are not familiar with dairy farms and know nothing about the operations, and it was decided that someone ought to at least go out and get somewhat familiar with what kinds of situa tions exist, and X was chosen to go out, 345 Q As a matter of fact, Mr, Papageorge, the claim was being rr-ado against Monsanto for damages to the cattle and the WATER PCB-SD0000035210 65 fn'tscers as a result of Monsanto' s PCB's In the lining of the Factorials of those silos, was It not? A That v?ns the claim, as X understood, 346 Q And yen* vent cut to investigate that, did you not? A Yes, sir, 347 Q What did yon find as to whether or not that was your PC8*s that have been used.in this material? . KLl. REESE: He has answered that question about twice. HR, YOlRKk X don't think he has, Keith. HR. EEESE: You asked him point-blank about two minutes ago whether he determined that Monsanto raanu- factured it, and he said he did not learn that. That is my recollection of his testimony. m. YGUHG: The question-- . MR. REESE: You can answer again, go ahead. 348 Q bo you recall the question after all that speech? A X believe X do, ' We determined~~v;ell, would you read the question? (The preceding question was read by the Reporter as fellows: "What did you find as to whether or not that was. your PCB's that have been ussd in this rafcrl.il ?11) WATER PCB-SD0000035211 66 A I did not have any Information that said PCB * a in that coating was Monsanto's PCB * s * t 349 Q Who .analysed those samples for you? A Wel.jl.9 the laboratory within. Monsanto. 350 Q At your plant? A Mot at the Central Research Laboratory. 351. Q how much PCB was found to be in that material? A 1 don't remember. 332 Q You have reports on that? A There were reports. I don't know where they are today. 353 Q Did that go into litigation? A 1 don't knew. 354 Q Was a lewsuit filed? , A 7>.sf a lawsuit was filed. 355 Q has your deposition taken in that litigation? A Yes, yea. 356 Q Where was tliat lawsuit filed? A 1 don't know that 1 can answer that. It would be the. Canton.,, 0h$o-~at least, *3 K 7 Q 3 wasn't there. ' A 1 vas deposed In Canton# Ohio. X don't know where the lawsu5.t was filed. -. 0 Lid, you testify in a trial? WATER PCB-SD0000035212 67 A 21o, sir, 159 Q You know what the disposition of that claim or suit was? ? K . : \* (i u.f .A C. 0 360 (> vHrio warn Cho. parti.no? A The plaintiffs as bast I recall ware Mr. and Mrs. Humphrey f> 361 Q Humphreys ? ' A Humphreys, .362 Q Were there any other parties to the lawsuit? . t A Of course, Monsanto, and X don't remember any other parties. 363 Q who built those silos? A I don'fc know. . 304 Q Did Bloomfield Silo Company build them to refresh your xeeollection? A I don't know, 365 p Who hnn knowledge of that? A X don't", know who would have knowledge, 366 Q Pin you make any investigation with the manufacturers of Cuwir ns to where they got Che fOF> that, was used . in that product: Chat you found, that, you found in that product? WATER PCB-SD0000035213 63 367 Q Did .luvyoue under your direction or control or anyone fvotw llonwnto contact the producer of Gumar? A 'Tot to my knowledge 363 Q Just lot it go, did they? MR* G0CHRA8i Well now, Howard, he didn't say that. 363 Q Well, X will withdraw that. HR. COCBSAN: Thanks a little. . 370 Q Would you know that. If that had been done as coordinator ' - of the whole shebang? . A If it bad .been done, not neceneoxily 371 Q Would you know the results of any inquiry of that sort? A Mot necessarily. '. 372 Q Was it any concern to you or Monsanto that PCB's were being 'used, might hare, been used in Omar that was being us"m! to line silos? . ' A You must keep in mind that itv 1970 there. was no evidence that the presence of these PCB's in silo3 or In milk - or in tba environment \-mt\ a problem. 373 Q That is--I didn't mean to ask you that. (The preceding question was read by the Reporter as follows: 'Was it any concern to you or Monsanto that ?C31s were being used, might have been used In Cumar WATER PCB-SD0000035214 that was being used to line silos?") 69 A There was no evidence to create any concern,, Presence alone. does not u&cess&rliy raean that harm is being done. 374 <Q Is?, other words, you didn't pursue it any further? A That is tru* because there was no perceived need to take any further action. 375 Q That would be true, in your opinion* that was your thought about the matter? - A It is our thought bolstered by my contacts with the government people who didn't express any concern either at that tjjte* 376 Q how, you let the government, people make your decision for you? A Ho, sir, but-*- 311 Q All right,, mm after, when you went over to Ohio on that Ohio claim, were you not informed that FCB's were found in the milk of the cattle that had eaten silage from these silos that you took the sample from and found PCB*s ? A I i$aa told this, yes, yes. - 378 Q Who told you? A Mr. and Mrs. Humphreys eventually told me* 379 Q Who else? WATER PCB-SD0000035215 70 A Well, initially, Dr* Hill mentioned this* 380 Q Did you make any invest 5-gat Ion to defcerroino how FCB5 a got in the milk on that: farm? A That was the purpose o'; the trip, 381 Q Well, vjhat did you find? A 1 found that PCS'a were present in the coating, and they were present in some of the silage, and I was told if: was present in the. ratlin* 382 Q Right, you accepted that, did you not? A 1 had to, there was no-383 Q You did, did you not? Did you accept tb.xfc, or did you just -disregard it? rn. COCrniAW: Howard, let. him answer, you keep interrupting* 38A o Sorry, I don't inasm to hit corrupt you, ,, A 1 read the report and X so vi the mush nr 6. T. don't know what you mean by "accept"* 385 Q Well, you assumed that woe correct, did you not? A 3>'ot necessarily * 386 Q Dial you make some tests erf your own? A 1 could not get samples of the milk for my J.-abora fcory to cmalyre. WATER PCB-SD0000035216 71 387 Q At least, you had been Informed that there were PCB's in that milk? A X was informed that a laboratory with unknown cjualifications interpreted their results as being PGB's. And at that point in time, there, wore very few laboratories qualified to analyse for FCB's, 383 Q You had one? A Yes, sir, one of maybe two,or thr^o. in the whole world, 389 Q How long had you had this laboratory able to do that? A Oh, I would say in that period of time, it was maybe . that: it had six months of experience, but it took about-- 390 Q At what period of time? A The development of the analytical method was started as soon as we. heard shout the. Stockholm report, and it took our laboratory about two years which would take it through 1908 and 1.969, to fool comfortable and confident in the results on. PCO's start in#, in late '69 and early *70, 391 Q So you could do it. In #70? A Yes, sir, 392 Q All right, what was your opinion as to what caused PCB's to get into the silos that these cows consumed? A At that time, X, assuming, well, }'. really didn't know WATER PCB-SD0000035217 72 where the PCB's could be coming from. But if the coat lug had PCB'ss that could be a source. But X didn't know where else In the dairy farm operation. I'CB'o might be present either* 393 Q You knew It was proseat there? A That Is the only place where X had definite information. 394 Q Well, as a scientist, what was your opinion as to the source of the FCB*s In that silo? A . The- probability was that a good bit of it could have corae from that coating, could have, but there were other ' sources possible, . 395 Q Did you investigate the possible other courses when you went over there for that purpose? A X questioned the individuals, the dairy farm owners, but they were not familiar enough with the types of lubricants they used, the equipment they were using, where their cattle came from, or--much of the other information, just wasn't available to thes?,* ' 396 Q You didn't pursue It any .further than that? A That is true* . 397 Q All right, well, if was your opinion that that is where the PCh's In the lining of the silos was the source of the FOB'$ in the .silage, van in the niloe, was it not? WATER PCB-SD0000035218 Hil,, REESE it lie said it was possible. 73 A Possibly a source. I do not speak for any other sources. . 398 Q And that was your opinion at that time? A Correct< 399 Q Did you pxirsue any inquiry as to how PCB's got into the lining, of that raaterial of that silo, having in mind that you knew that it was Curoar? A Well, X was told it was Gum?:, I don't know what that really means. It is somebody's recipe for a coating. ...At this tiae, a discussion was l1.ad off the record. Mil. CbCUdAd: Hia statement with a cox"?:sction of mischaracteriaafcion, he dldn *fc know was Cum^r; he didn't know anything; he had been told bhst *' 400 Q X understand that. Wow, we have got our minds off on another track. Do you recall the question now? A Yes, sir, I personally did not pursue. 401 Q How about your company or someone under your direction . as the boss? ' A X cannot speak for everyone that could have pursued this, WATER PCB-SD0000035219 primarily,, because these were bundled through our Legal Department, and what they did, 1 was never really-402 Q But you never pursued it? A That Is what 1 said, 403 Q Nobody under 3'our direction pursued it? A That Is true, to my knowledge. 404 Q You. wore the big coordinator between the legal Depart ment: and nil these other departments that ware concerned with the problems you wore getting with J?CL* s, were you . not? A Not. in every legal case, 405 Q How many legal cases did yen Lave? A I don't rernenber. I never knew the total number * 406 Q Approximate? A Ob, I have, no idea, 407 Q How many cases have yon given dopetStlevs ini A Regarding this subject, regarding FOB he, J s half a dozen or no, I don't remember them all, 408 0 Half a do 4 J f'/T y, tf* is all you remember? A Uh-bubu 409 Q The at: would be six? Ml, RKESE: That is a brilliant deduction from 0 WATER PCB-SD0000035220 lawyer and a chemist, both. 410 Q How long does PCB1o stay in materials? How long does it last? A That depends upon the material and the conditions to which the material is exposed. I can't answer that, 411 Q Give us a range then of time that PCB's will last? A Well**** HE. CG&-ERAN: I am going to object. Your question Is so vague HR, YOUNG: Let; the witness vnisva;:, ME, REESE: To the point where he can't; answer, 412 Q If It is too vague that he can't answer It, ha can tell me, . You don't need to toll the witness how to answer the question. He is a very intelligent:, arm, ME. COCZ'RAN: X understand, but X am making. my objections fox* the record. 413 Q That is what I ara questioning. A There, are examples of PCB's still in was in transformers that, are 40"50 years old. There are .examples X am WATER PCB-SD0000035221 76 told of caulking mterials around windows of skyscrapers that are, tk original installations and many years old* Thar are also laboratory studies that show that FCB's that are put through a system that simulates a city sewage handling system will degrade* 414 Q Will, what? ' A Degrade? they disappear, eventually. 415- 0 Hv.it about PGB'o In silage* how long would that PCB's stay in silage? A X don't knew. 416. Q Bid you aver make any test to determine that? A Nop six * ' 417 q Do yon know of any tests that have been made to deter mine that? _ A sir* 1 don't know of any testa that one could use. 418 q The question is, do you know of any tests? .<AA ik>,, 41.9 q Thank you. dm'" you Imve no different opinion? ' A "n,, sir* 420 q Highfc have been years until It got eaten up? m. COGHGAA; Howard, 1 object. . WATER PCB-SD0000035222 77 42.1 Q W&ll, It might stay as long as the silage was a useful product, in other words? A X diva ' fc kacw. 422 C) Which of the -silos, or whexx were the silos in Ohio filled? . A X have forgotten, X don't know* 423 Q Would It he in the record? HA,. CQCERAN: What record? 424 Q Of that case, Wl* AEF.XE: He doesn't know; he is not a lawyer, 423 Q All right, X will withdraw the question* You don't Slavs: to be a lawyer to know everything* K&, EEE8E: We 13., it helps, X think* 426 Q Did you have any other cases Involving complaints of FGB's in milk? . ' ' A At what point, in time, now? 42? Q At any time, the oldest, farthest back that you can t!iink of* A Via have reports of FG8' s found in milk In one of the earlier reports that X was eventually made aware of, WATER PCB-SD0000035223 78 which was a situation in Virginia, as X recall * in which FCB*s were used along with other oils to dilute soma weed killer that was sprayed under transmission lines and cattle grassed in the area, and the PCB's eventually were detected in their milk. As best 1 recall, that was reported in *69, late '60?, , fiZt Q Ahat is the name of that claim? A I don * t know that it had a n* Inis was a report: that X personally got from government people. 429 (-l 4'as that the Humphreys case? . A i-'o 0 430 C\ But the cows had been, grass ix>g under some power lines? A Yes, sir, . ' 431 Q where the power lines waret was there any PCB's .round the power lines? A !sop the KJB' s were part .of the oil that was used to dilute the.weed killer, and It was, the idea is to keep the growth irons under fcho transmission lines from getting out of hand, 432 Q So you finally traced the PCS* s back to the oil then? A The government traced thorn. WATER PCB-SD0000035224 79 433 Q All right.,, A Other- 434 Q You had advantage of their findings, 1 taka It? 4 Correct, 433 Q Go ahead. . A Other situations involving FCB's In milk, X had reports of situations in Tennessee and Georgia, of course, Ohio. 430 q Others than you have mentioned in. Ohio? A X only remember the two in Ohio. X don't recall any others. There is also some reports out of Michigan. 437 h Was that the Michigan silo Involved in that? A Michigan silo has beon mentioned, and X got that from our legal people. ,, . 438 Q When v?as this Tennessee claim? A As beat X recall, 1.972 or thereabouts. 439 Q Kw about Georgia? A About: the &aim time. 440 Q Haw about Michigan? ' A Michigan, that, was later. X heard about those in about 1975--'74-'75. 441 - Q Hev you have determined, have you not, that PCB's are harmful to cattle? WATER PCB-SD0000035225 80 A Ko9 sir. 442 Q Have you determined that PCB'a may be harmful to wild life? A l;?o sir. . 443 Q Mist efforts did you make to determine whether or not PGB's were or were not harmful to living creatures? A That was the very purpose of the long-term studies that X mentioned earlier* 444 Q Did you do anything else other than that? Specifically did you get, did you receive the results of the studies by the Federal government end the state government? A Yell-- 445 Q On the subject? ' . A W received, or saw reports of studies by the Federal government. For example the studies on Arcelor 1254 that the, the Kat5.on.sl Cancer Institute Study showed that they were not carcinogenic, that was reported. 446 Q Do you recall that one? - A Yes, that is a fairly recent report that came out, 447 Cj Would .if; be fair to say that your activities took advantage of all studios by any governmental agency WATER PCB-SD0000035226 81 on the fcc:-:ie offsets or harmful effects of PCB's on 11.v in g creahere s 1 A 1 don't know what you mean by the word "advantage"* 0 'Let tn'"" A Ua carfcainly-~ 449 0 By that I mean, did you secure copies of all that you could? A As wherever we could* all over the world* 450 Q All right, and you v?ere successful in getting reports wherever studies had been made, ware you not? A tip, bent as I can tell* '4t -*J7 *%* 0 All right,, and as a result of your activity and your work, did you take all PCB's off the market except for use in the Dielectric Department, did you not, eventually? . KP. ,, PJEESE: You want to read that question? ' - I?;', YQ5JHG: It isn't a good question. Let me rephrase it* . - 452 Q You did later limit your sales of PCB1 a to dielectric users, did you not? A Eventually., yes. 453 Q Vfben was that? .. \ Atoll., the program started in 1970, ami the actions we. WATER PCB-SD0000035227 82 took were based c.n the information we had at hand* Starting in 1970, we terminated the sale of the PCB's that we know ended up in uses that were not . containedf closed systems, these, miscellaneous kinds of uses that lend themselves to immediate release into the environi&ant * 434 Q That would include3 would it not,, the use of PCB's in materials used to line silos, would it not? A If that is whore they were used, yes, coatings* 433 Q That would be one of those uses? A Miscellaneous uses, yss, sales of those materials w.r terminated in August of 1970; August 30, as 1 remember* . . August 30 was the date* * 456 Q 1970? . A . 1970* ' 457 Q Alas It a directive that went out, or something? A Yea, sir, oh, yes, it was approved* '. . 458 Q You have a copy? A It was approved by top management Sorry, 1 didn't hear the last part* 459 0 That la okay, X will withdraw that. - \ Along v?ith . that withdrawal of the -miscellaneous WATER PCB-SD0000035228 83 open-emled uses, w aiao had a program for using those FCB's whatever we could, and still keep the safety features, lira, resistance, explosive resistance and the like la these hydraulic systems, and the electrical systems that had not, been reported by the environmental analysts as being discovered in the environment. So we selectively reduced the amount of the Aroclor 1.260, Atoc3-or 1234 that was sold. That wo.a part of the program. 480 Q Yes. That is what went into Gumar, wasn't it? .KT, OOOHRAM: -Well, now-" 461 Q 1234? -' A 7, was told that. X don't: know. 462 Q Okay, you don't try to verify everything personally, you wouldn't have time for that, would you? . KB, 31EESE; The question is impossible to answer, and l object. ' 463 Q 'Don't answer it, - ' A All right. This "was La 1970 that the program of withdrawal fre-n the mutketpla.ee-,, and this was based, I think it is WATER PCB-SD0000035229 8i important to know, was baaed on the fact that PCB's, seme of the BCD's were. being discovered in the environ- n*v:.U # So It is a Better of! presence of a man-made cheraica which we made* and we felt that if this :1s true * let's pull back on those operations that literally dump it into tha environment, That ia the purpose of that program at that point In time, okay? 464 0 Well, 7. wasn't - asking the purpose so much as 1 was .asking the sequence ns to when this did occur. how let me ask you when did you terminate, selling FC2 * s for use fclu might get into Bay, food? A That: was at the same time. < 463 Q 70' A " ^ * P 446 Q K*nnt did you do to disseminate the reasons fen: that to the' people who had already purchased your'materials? A h>!.l, as I roaiember, there were several things done. Marketing, people, who ware, of course, familiar with the customers, the'baking company, the baking corn- pro ty were advised to go back and talk with-contacts in those companies. - WATER PCB-SD0000035230 At: Che same CJjso, w on our own labels, we included the ofcatament not to be used 'la equipment associated with hupwtt lonih-w.hosa rrari'f. *'() /> ^'d; *i7! ry '*' words-"but. th at is the the*..1`'lit. 467 Q Did you, say aworthing about being harmful to living creatures, or livestock, .this product'? A I couldn't, do Chat that la act true. 468 Q The answer is you did not ? A That Is true, didn't have to. 469 Q Well, that is what you decided. HR. REESE: That la his answer. now. You flight not like it, but that is his answer. 470 0 Ue.ll, I Hke It fine, because that .Is Mr3. opinion. A X forgot where 1 was. 471 Q I have, too * - m, .REESli: It wasn't: harmful to llvt$ animals. 472 Q P.ead the question* . A X ms talking about informing cor.tonsura that w were-- 473 Q Would it help if we read the .quant: ion, pic a re? A The labels-"" - WATER PCB-SD0000035231 86 A All right, 475 Q The labels were part of rr,y qufict. inn as to what: you did with ronoeet fro infonclng t)y? peon 3/-; vho had purchased yoi.tr product o the dangers that yp. fetaid which csuired. you to reduce * to withdraw the use; of that product; sn.y in food that might go to human being3 or anything else? m. R1KSS8i That: :I. s cf';. {h ... .... That is a long question , 1 will V ithdrew' that qvsestion. Ml'., IXECSS; That i 2U -a.to re per j. he can an if ea.irftains evidence .*.3 O.'O t'" " . hit. YOtfTG: You don' t: 'have t 0 say anything more. . HR. c;v:;hg.AM; Wiry dun ft yon let him finish. f.h.e answer t 0 th. que fit ion ins teed of interrupting 1dm* I don't think be was fs n LGhad, m. Js.U V iV.,T t Keith. lot.erruptv t X , ;A A m* CO CI S'Ad ; You ashvd ti-n <qtu 3fi.onv `u^.! liie starts t 0 give file anewr, tvvK.c y u iatorn.ipc >:/SU.b other question 3 without le t L ifig ihi/a {flu Isl. lie r.nsKe.t to the first qu esfcion, MR. YOUSG: X dido. 't ;;' * ty | y ,* i rt - fii. -.Aii ; vJ'i'V'.t is 1 r*1'"' *i r jn'.evu yv-'-lv-1 ei?n * e- WATER PCB-SD0000035232 fS'F you asked the witness? I bei leve It was somethlag to the effect that was steps you took In forming ,,yo ut cuatowx s, .and 1 don't believe tbe witocsa-- MR. YOUNG: Read the last ques!:Iv k piefi&t to Mr. Cochran. (Tho xe er xed- o q u e s S io 11 s and aaawer? were* re-ad by the Reporter.) 477 Q Had you finished your artawer? A X don't believe X had. ' X talked about--' 478 Q Do you hove anything to .aid? - A I talked about dug personal contact ol insr sales . representatives with the.customers; X talked about Liut he Ufc O I ;,, and the n I sent t '* 3 i xc:r.fC er. the o hb.es O l.' sou n C ' * 0 tOiS?zrs Uhiit about he; t. :iun o i: saliis of PCB's for that nao. . any o f : . 1 %/.A*, -0A `v. . Yv.f> v*"nin,< that l w&y v Call theta of si. lot;? _ A ho, sis WATER PCB-SD0000035233 478 Q What effort did you make> If any, to determine what silos were in existence nt: that: time -which had PGB coatings in them? There. v?i3fi no. srldlfc lend effect nr* ho. bee* i <i?0 in Way* .June, ys August,, there were only two dairy farmers to our knowledge, involved ith about three silos, This vas a very very ctnal'i situation from civc point of view. It could have been ;va loo lath'd case. We just didn't have enough InfojeuBAtion to tell us that there terra more silo a l.nvolvnd. Q Did you ra-ibe any effort to find f>.;t .1 i, the.re v'ery rto.i'0: s 1 lo a tnvo Xvo d ? A ho, sir, ` .. Q So you did not notify anybody who wnis r.siu& khe product:. Cinar or who had purchased it? . A We had no V.nowXodgo of thorp peoplef so -no could not communicate, ` 481 0 Excuse we, ate you finished? Yes, sir. . 482 Q You said shier,ran in the field, did you t A Yes, sir. 402 0 t-ThaC d.cpat"fcmont d'Id fh.o.v come uw'i.'w* WATER PCB-SD0000035234 A The Sales Department*; of plasticizers, business ^wjips, 484 Q Did you make any effort to find, out -who had sold PCB's to the n:'^.uuf"ctnre.rr. of Ceimcr,, ina ?n^lvlt'uil in your Sale a Depart nrmt? A We, 1 touched base as X mentioned earlier. 485 Q Who was that? , A That was the ny?rkting ma'O.age'r of th# nlastlclrer applications, 486 Q What la his nm>e? A 1 believe it ms Dr* Curasing Patons, as'best X recall. - 487 Q Was that individual Instructed to give ton. manufacturer of Cumsr any information regarding f.ht possible hazards of the use of PCB's in alio linings? . A Mo, becart.se wn didn't know there was such a person existed, a s?v?.nufa cboxer of Cumar 488 Q You didn't.? Who did you think mrt'n I,?:? A Don't know, at that point ih Hue, ie didn't know . that this was & vtdoupvend kind of appllcr.tdoru ' 489 Q So the answer is that nothing was done with rvoct . to Cumar to warn of the. drapers nf rii1 s In a silo . lining? A Well, X sn disturbed about the fact that 'you use the ''warning of dangers"', there were x>e perceived WATER PCB-SD0000035235 90 warninss of danger in 1970 regarding FC*> * $ and cattle and milk and to that date, there oro no such perceived dangers, 490 Q Well now, to answer the question of whether there arc warninga or not* you did nothing, with respect to advising? A That, is right, there way ao poreoivod ns to do any* fch log, 491 Q At least, you dldnii perceive of any? A That is correct. Ht. UEKSS: my don't Vh<;> X'CC-'t'1.3,S ? ...At IX; 30 A..Mo, the further taking o f! deposition was recessed fox* lunch, to reconvene .at 1:00 P *M, '' WATER PCB-SD0000035236 91 AFXZBmon SESSION 1:00 P.M. Following tba nooa rwno, t.h& parttoa agal'a cwfc, C and tb?. following nrocnadioga bad: WILLIAM B. F a\ P A E 0 tt C, bavin* bn-an previous ly duly anomp resuiKci t!t stand and testified' fintthor as follows: DIRECT La/U1XU.(VI IDE (O01rfcS.iM.M2U.) * .. QUESTIONS V,Y MR 3 R MAYO E. YOl'nOv JO. (Covtfcittumi)-:- 492 Q Mr. Pmpngootye, is If: ym*r op In Ton that PCf* * s afe rso*: harmful to living creator er? .. A. Yas, at fch dosago or ]cwlu of- ^Kposurm 'ne var.-ld normally export in thn average klu.U of us* of FGB ' o, 493 Q Hovj you dropped your voice at fcbe cud* and X n^ssed If. A At: the levels one would normally c.'-woof;. (xon an raiponu.ro to in'Vi atria?. ohomien 5 a . PUS * a not. harmful WATER PCB-SD0000035237 <)/ Thor<3 is no evidence they are harmful It is only at the extremely I; l gh levels such as those X mentioned carl lev that the ?iiJvu<>lis under test wore exposod to the 100 ppm nnd a-'ove* This V.lod of level, there is an effect., not at. low levels'. 494 Q All right, what do you mean, "low levels"l A I am talking now in low parts per jr> 111 ioh * 495 Q What, how low? A X am not qualified to plot, a number like that:* 496 Q What do yon mean whan jrou say n!or?H? That is your word, not mine A 'll)at is right* - In. my mind, it is less than 50 upm for a siugj expo sure, and less than nay he psro for repeated exposuras, 497 Q For hex* long, hot-?' mu?h repetition'.1' A I have to depend upon a in': X know about it In the animal studies, and say, lor the U let Iran hind of: exposure, such as the rats wero. opposed to for s ill's* time. ' 493 O' Well, I aia. not familiar with, how lory catj live, f.ml>* A About two years.. _. 499 Q X-c t ' s ta1 o a k'JT.."'/1 ho in o t'y?o.h". tt ^i out' oninixui .ho5 WATER PCB-SD0000035238 O exposure to rJ.jKi'tnr.i > S,, is not ha:armful to human be lag s'? A At loo? Xevet s; It y s a d n ri> <3 ihuntion. 500 0 Jot ' go hack, to 1.OV7 l-OV els y. rJri, knot pr> . you ''-an. %VJ V ?:h to burn;?n be Lug s as a low levcl har cn expo nur a? A A 3 I said e.a tiler, X am not a medic ml per ton. 501 0 bur. you a ny "low". th one nr your wotds 7. am try to understand you* A Well* I am saying lew as to distinguish in the 100 ppm used l.n the animal studies, and 1cm with respect to the. situation is well known. and is locumanted that happened vla an accident In Japan, vfhj-u* it v-%&- 2,000 ppm. Wien you compare ilia levels that oik* r-ilght expect with such high numbers I the 100 and 2,000* that is shat X mean by lov; * 502 Q Are you. talking about 100 npm, or 2 *000 ppm or what V A X am calling those hiph levels, 503 Q Hum what is low level? A T. don't ba-'o an omaet number. 1 504 Q ` 1 knew you don't, but. yon ray* in eh??; range ate yen ' talking? A Arc you asking -for a layman's op.1nf.ca? - . 505 O Ho, your opinion. . .. ' . WATER PCB-SD0000035239 o, A My opinion, 1 am a lay person. 506 Q You are a toxicologist? A Mo, not a tor Icoloe.i&h, 507 Q You ate a chemist ? A I am a chemical engineer, ME. REJESE: H is a chemical engineer, ' A And X will have to, my persona], opinion in based upou my understanding as an engineer, v? j.thoufc m\y unique training in this field, that it; would have to bo 20 . ppm or lens, if you force me to cvr* up with some sort of number. . 508 Q 20 ppm or less, you say would not he harmful ? . A. I don't believe that would h>? barmful. . . 1JZo 'O > Would that also depend, In your or in ion, c.poa the number of exposures in that an'euo'; to lual level? Assuming hb*?t this is a repeated ctposure for aKtercdisd periods of time, as quite a bit of exposure, ye$ 510 Q Repeated Ivy, you nenn, or; s dally hr si ft? 5 f. V Yes. 511 ' Q Or over a period of years? . A Yes. 512 0 And you feel t?>a'-'on.? cl vc't. <"' '-aw"1,V WATER PCB-SD0000035240 95 Yztit that is right. To huanm beings? Tit.-h is right* bo you b.r/jn inforoatioo as to whether this PCB is .owuiat Av^ in tb.o food chain? J have, yes, I do* `Chat is rru^nt by that ,ret.mulative in the food chain"? Wh--. ' as ,i understand it, this refers to the situation ia -which the various living creatures in the environ ment vd:-.ich era part of the food chain, the larger cj. vats.ue entiog the orsuaLXer creature and the like T.;ith F;.'h9e the ability to end up with the result hx %'hXch the largest creature in the food chain consumes a Motor level of PCB'a because it is accumulating to cook of the pacts o the food chain, and increases a F-; i'(: p co c o e d c up' t he o o d ch a in* All right * Ihen on the basis of that, do you have an opinion of whether Pith's in the environment might accumulate sufficient cone*ntretleas of PCB'3 to be hossulsj 1 to huwnn life? . Fh. hEESP; 1 am going to object to the question* ,Tkls l&w&vdt does not Involve any personal injury of hied,, end 7. hove let you get into this about three WATER PCB-SD0000035241 96 m: four times, but. X don't think it is proper, and not germane to any of the issues in this lawsuit, As 7. understand it, you are suing for damages to silos and forced sale of cattle and damage to som si lag's* Consequently^ 1 think the question is improper, leu have "been into it three, or four times, and 1 object foe the reasons stated. 517. \\ Go ahead and answer. `Xbe Court will rule on his objection et the time. i vi 0.0 '.*x.`< Just hold on. a minute. Go ahead and answer* if you recollect You remember the question? A Tin? possibility Is therar but it is highly unlikely. GIG 0 7ow then you mentioned that, you stated that in your opinion* it; would take move than lev levels of PCB coo o.i:un 1 ta c f.on a to he harmful to living creatures? - A bn " 'ho h n . 519 Q Would you state what you base that opinion on? A. It i cj b cosed on the results of the animals and poultry i.?r; ud j ;u; co*. vine ted for Konsanto. WATER PCB-SD0000035242 97 That Is based on my reading of the literature published on other studies, and It is also based on mj personal observation of workers- making FCB's In the wo.v. 'X place. day In and day out throughout their working cm rows with no adverse medical consequences* Anything else? .' That'is all X can recall at this time. You spoke of animal and poultry studies made by Monsanto have you. described those -studies? Ye b , TTt.-.ifc readings did you base your opinion - on? I mentioned the 100 ppm* He, I dido.'fc~~excuse me, maybo 1 didn't make my ques tion cleat. * That readings did you read? no you m-eon of other literature? thatover It was when you referred to, when you said ycu based your opinion on readings? X don't recall all of too articles and reports, but - there have been goyoTT/.mmil, reports -issued by & task force in 1972. There was, I mentioned earlier the Hal turns* dnnner Institute study of Aroclor 1254. I have xoaf reports of interpretations of a WATER PCB-SD0000035243 98 incident 1 am sure there are others, but they don't come to nrltul right now ton spoke 08 a Japanese incident, what was that? '.this is the incident referred to as the Yusho incident, which occurred in Japan, and as I remember in 1969, I bed here It was, in which a PCS used to provide heat: In an oil r.t-fining process, that is an oil derived from rice, which Is used for salads and cooking was tto n,t:arap lat. ed. This cii van contemplated by PCB's and thousands of ImUvidua Is in the community digested in their food, md nt the fciuw it was reported that the estimated ecu men.trat ion of PCB's in, this oil was about 2,000 ppm; the symptoms that were reported included nausea, skin dlyt.'.nXoration, headaches, tiredness, general poor health, Seme infants were born to women pregnant at that time the incident occurred that were born with a darker pigmentation, which I >.m told eventually lightened. So it was a temporary effect. It was subsequently determined Chat the cause for all these symptoms could w.X.l have! been a contaminant present in the PCB's, u'.h, the- t-CB* s thev.-selvoo* That is generally the WATER PCB-SD0000035244 4 99 1rxc 1 det>,t 26 ^ 1'Ucf La five incident you were referring to? A If?-'5* 92? Q Then you. stated your opinion, are you speaking for Monsanto Company when you state that opinion? A Melt, it is my personal opinion* , O Cf Arc there my writings that are a part of the records of the company pertaining to the decision to terminate all sales of PGB except for dielectric' uses? A Yes, there were, Q v.Mat w-rot they, would you tail me? A I recall letters that were mailed to customers on mAh 1 recall references to the corporate management committee approving the withdrawal program. 7he references to the programs we instituted re . greening, the recall of material from distributors, a program to assist one customers of heat transfer fluids . and draining, f3.ushS.ftS, and refilling their system; . that Is all 1 remember, now, 53 3 Were you privy to that decision to terminate sales of s -p.r?.t of the recommendation, and X was made aware WATER PCB-SD0000035245 100 of the approval- of that program, yes. y>y that I take it you appeared before the committee that neda that eidolon/ a.uc! testified or spoke. Were yea yx'osv-rnt ichsu Che dec is.'loo was decided, made? do, ny traterlor was present when the decision was approver!. ' f ' C M3 3 3 ty ?vitne ? .'C`u U K? w:rn. Was d?. ho;s*xd 0 f Directors ho, this wa s a corporate '/as !iat rt'caarAcndatri tpC cor od Mgt ere op than f . J1 .$? A1s. <*/* e? V: d:Idn 1 h hove to be. tba 0<.)>'poratIon to app tT.fr>' that dovva, ! 70? H*y V 1'J is, on tly Kay, I'o you know the basin of It, or the foundation for that action? The foundation for t?i'.th-irr..wal was based on the presence a3 reported of FCb's in the environment, and our intent to 60 two things: - ., Car;: > a to ellw.l,n.r;te further release of PGB's by WATER PCB-SD0000035246 101 terminating the use in open systems, open-ended uses, and a! so to eliminate as tswch as we could, principally those BOB* a such, as Arcelor 1254 and Aroclor 1260 that were being reported by the analytical chemists. That in the purpose* Did not that committee act on the opinion and the assumption and thought that the presence of PCBfs in the environment were harmful? Ho, they did not, because* there was no evidence that they were harmful. You were act present. Did others testify before that c:omeji ?.:t e cj ? out to ft),y--waU, I don't wish to confuse, you--I was present at u meeting in April*in which the broad in front of the program was described, and in May,the specific dates -were established, and that is when the a p p 'tosrn .1 \ma g iven. ''deli, I, take it that that eonmifctee felt that, and their action wa t,, Mbtg.n because PCB's in the environment might be harmful to living: creatures? `To, no, the. corporate management committee decided tun presence la tire, environment of a man-made chemical for which we could at least reduce the loss to the WATER PCB-SD0000035247 102 environment mao something that should be done In a responsible wy, anil they proceeded to approve it 540 \ nby would they want to bo induced to eliminate the presence of FO'ft ' a in the environment If it might not have been harmful? A doll? it is based on the fact that if something is man~ r.'ade and it is out there* wo. have no good reason to put ..it out there unless there is a definite benefit to be gained by the use of the. material, 541 fl You produced about 40*000*000 pounds of PCB's each year ; at your plant* did you not? A I don't recall the enact:* but that is about the right order of niagnitudo ,, 542 Q bow the 40,000,000 pounds per -year were made at the Smu'-et plant, were they? A That: Is about, right, yes, sir, M3 0 And j-y<`asanto employs about 50,000 people? A 0omvtwhere in there, yes, 544 0 Are; you familiar with the, when you speak of chickens lavlag been contaminated, you. are referring to the ' Campbell soup? . A IhiU' was one, 345 <j fc;:rpj! u.!.v.!' ? WATER PCB-SD0000035248 1.03 A That was one of the incidents that I heard os yes. 546 Q What was that complaint? A As 1 recalls the chickens used in a product by the Campbell Soup Company were fmmd to have .PC'B's in . theta, above some level--*I have forgotten the number. And the resolution we that they could process the chickens by removing those? parts of the chickens with the high levels, such that the product eventually sold at a level less than five ppm* _ 547 Q What happened to the chickens thnt were*. ixx that soup, were they destroyed or. what? - A ho, they were eventually used, because the FOB level was reduced by removing the skins and the fat. 548 0 And the livers? _ A X don't know about the livers. X doo."t think livers are used in mking chicken--feui that, is, X don't know what happened to the livers. 549 Q ICB's end-up in the liver generally, does it not? A Ho, sir. 550 Q Of living creatures? A Ho, it ends up in the fat. The liver destroys PCB's. 551 Q Does that accumulate in the. liver? ' A Well, there la a little bit there that the liver hasn't WATER PCB-SD0000035249 104 worked on yat, so there is .n amount that cum h>Q found there ,, hut it is not fcivs storage place for it. 532 Q The storage mostly .is in the fat tissue? A Yes* sir. 533 Q That would bo throughout nil the tisane? A Wherever there is fat. 554 Q Why did they take the skin off: then? A Because 1 cm told that the fatty layer i.vnk th. tit skin is the principal-- 555 Q On chickens? A On chickens? is the principal plnon of ni:o%rag of pm} * o Jj kJ ft 55(3 (} Are you familiar with the Holly Harm case: A Yes, sir. . 557 Q What happened there, leak in a tronsfor orJi.t j n. a what? ' A There was a fish meal processing unit whicfr?. used PCB*s as a heat transfer* tedia to provide k:he 'tsat to dry the. fish ir.eal. Ad X recall, the PCB1 s leaKc.4 through damaged. equipment into the fish meal. The - fish wv*>1 in turn was sold to ,a poultry food processor who HI rudod It In with c liter ingredient m to pou3.tr;;- ford or WATER PCB-SD0000035250 105 different kinds of poultry feed* The poultry feed eventually s delivered to the poultry far-ti, the egg Ketcherie?? and. the like,, mid as I retueraber there were come reproduction, problems There were some chicks that were diseased. . Of course, there was the presence of. FCB's In the poultry that was exposed* That Is the situation, as I recall it* 558 Q Now have you had other claims with respect to FCB's in milk cov?s from silos and TCBVs? A None other than those X reported earlier or discussed this morning* 559 Q Well? A Should I repeat those? 560 q No, as X recall you repotted .cor In Ohio? A Yes, sir* . 561 Q And you reported one in Michigan? A I don't know that 1 had the nuraber hi Miahf.g-D.ru ' There, are some in Michigan* 7. &-vn* t rccicmbea'.' the eacac t munber * 562 Q How many were there in Michigan? A A couple* I think there were a con-pi.z in Michigan* "1 y^imninfl-r f:* Tonness'a there wo vs sort* T. don't WATER PCB-SD0000035251 know how many. 563 Q Do you know the number in Tennessee? A Ho, 1 don't. Thono are all handled by our loegeJ. ' Department, and J. am not directly involved. 564 Q What other claims have you had arising In Indiana than this? - A I have, only beard from, our legal people of one addition al. . 565 Q What is that? A I have heard it mentioned as the. Iia.et.ings case. I don't knew what that mesas. That fs all 1 kmr#,. 566 Q You are not familiar with, the hasting'j ease?? A No ,, . 567 Q Are you fan.?.liar with tho test: results of the ETA, Environmental Protection Agfutcy with respect to PCS ' s? A I don*!; recall, any tests sponsor?.--! by EPA. No, 1 don't. X don't recall any EPA- cp-u. sored ' PCD studies. 56il 0 If there, are, you are not jcam.Qier TtUb. them? A That is true. 569 Q Have you fold us all. of the warn.leys on labels that you have placed to warn people about PCS'a? A Ho, I did not get the chance to mention that $:a soon, as we had heard about the c;:vJ.roumei:rtv,l presence, wo change WATER PCB-SD0000035252 10/ our label in -early 1970 to caution the user not to permit the PCB1 s to contaminate the environment; I, don*t remember the er.act words,, but don't release to rivers and the aiwiroaraaut. 570 Q When was that done? A March or April of 1970. 571 Q Did those labels indicate what the consequences of such a release might be? A I believe it mentioned e word ''pr^s^no'5. 572 Q Pardon me? A Presence in the environmevit 1 l.-eXleve it said the recent reports indicated the presence of PCB'a in the environment and caution should be taken, not to release this material and on and oru 573 Q Well, did. you indicate any dangers Item such a release or what: the dangers might be? A Wo, . .. 574 Q In your labels? - A Wo, because I. didn't have any iolVacrUiicm that would lead tr;a to do so. 575 Q Well, you did not do so? - . A That is correct. 576 0 Did your company do, t&nke any env l ..dnuonu.ai impact WATER PCB-SD0000035253 in a studieso as to PCS 9 a? A X don't knew what is meant by an onvironassnts.1 Impact study 0 It varies from situation to situation, so *j~- 577 Q Let me make a little mote clear then, did your company . make any studies as to the effect in the awimraseat on the environment of VC.l' fsf Is -that any hotter? A Well, the studies that X. mentioned, the rata, the dogs arid the chickens -tcer intended to help us understand what, these mataria Is will do to living creatures, mammals, birds. That nos cur total intent on conducting these studies. 578 Q Did you. make any other studies then that, so far as the effect of PCB * s ca the nvircn.vent? A bo. ' 579 Q Arc you familial.' with tests that wet msd-ct with monkeys? A Yes, I neglected to mention these this morning* ' 580 Q Yes, what are they? A I neglected--! didn't get a chance to, 581 Q how Is your chance. -. HP., EJSESE: You are going to let him. answer It now WATER PCB-SD0000035254 109 Howard? A X ara limited in my knowledge of those studies, because they were placed as bast 1 remember in 1975 prior to our Medical Department, and since X was reassigned in early *76, 1 really don't know anything about those studies, other than that they vie.re placed* m$v & Q When. v;as that dene, when ware those tests mad, on. m.onk.eys? A I believe they were started in 1975, but>~ 583 Q Who made, them? A X don't know, . 584 Q How you menttoned some torlciky studies., was that first done in *58? A X believe the 1950 studio:' were n repeat r.f earlier studies that were done in the '80's,'40*a; there'v&re 59 less two studies made, jruo cj: Q Have you described all the. tonicity studies that your company made regarding PC?'ft? A X tried to, X may have niceod soyr.thing here, 586 Q How we mentioned. sometiling about the tcmdwicy o FCB's to migrate, Poes that word hwe a marring ? A 1 don't recall any dlsemrslon on migration, 587 0 T. run rofcwing, to the toode.xy ol; VC 8fu to mlgc-ate iren WATER PCB-SD0000035255 one material to another* that is la close contact with it. Is there such a phenomena? A Hot to my knowledge. The migration * if by migration we mean the movement of PCDds? 588 Q Right. .. . A Hy underr.taniling o.C how this happens with fCB's generally because they adhere to particulars! matters such as grains oil sand in a river bottom, and it is only when that: grata of sand moves that the FGB moves. Now TO'nhs are heavy * and they v.'il.l settle to fcho bottom of the water and stay there, 589 Q V.'o.li, are you familiar with, the fact that PCB*s in a material used to coat an lasxls of a silo moves into the silos? - A ' Well, X would call that, if it decs occur, I would sa.yy suspect: very highly it is a. leeching action, whets a material dissolves the FOB, nnd toRes it up In that fashion. . 590 Q Well, that would be a transfer of wets tic1 from one material to another, would it not? A Correct. ' 591 q have you vain any studios o.c to the iranahv effect of WATER PCB-SD0000035256 Ill FOB from one nsaterJtal to another? A Thors wcro very early studies made that showed that FOB'3 were highly Insoluble la water, and very soluble In many chemicals particularly, what is known by the chemist, as organic chemicals, solvents, particularly, . .oils. . 592 Q Bight. A So they are soluble in some materials. 593 Q Silage would be one of them, wouldn't it? A 1 don't know enough about what is in silage and silage liquids to comment* SVA Q Well, -are. you familiar with "the effect of PCB's on j uvenlie shrimp ? A Yes. *. 595 Q What was that, fell us about that? What is your . understanding of that? * A I was told by the laborers in Gulf Breece, Florida, an EPA laboratory. . 59G Q Wh-su, if X. may Interpose? A. X ms going to say about 1972. 597 Q Okay, go ahead. . A Somewhere in there. ~' 538 X Interrupted yon, so -- WATER PCB-SD0000035257 112 A By Dr* Duke,, Director of that laboratory at that time. that they had found that juvenile shrimp were extremely sensitive to exposure to FCB's* ' 51} Q And as a matter- of ct, that study showed that one ppm would kill those shrimp? A it is a very low level, yes, sir, 600 Q Xhat was in *71, was it not? A Well, all right, 1 bad forgotten. 601 Q How you said that you withdrew this product from distributorsj, who are' your distributors, do you ' recall? 1 think, you used the word? A Wellf, our distributors for our purposes were considered customers,, and yet we comcunicafed with them In a special way to make sure that*they in turn communicated with fcbelr custooiers* the recall- 602 Q Co ahead. ' A The recall was part of the termination, of sales to distributors, and it was our intent to help them get rid of any inventory they might have bad in their ware houses. 603' Q Okay, so they had bought and paid for such, and you bought it back, so to speak? V'c had a recall plan within so many. days. WATER PCB-SD0000035258 113 604 Q You paid for it? A Yes, sir, and. as time-- . . 605 Q In other words, you. gave them their money back? A Ye s,, . 606 Q And your distributors are your customers, is that what you said? A well, they are listed along with our other customers. 60? 0 Do you have distributors who have customers? A. *2S* 608 Q Who? A Well, X am sorry, didn't under,stand. 609 q Describe them generally for "me, would you? A Customers or distributors? 610 Q X didn't make myself clear. * . Do' you have distributors, and those distributors ha.vs customers? ' ' A That Is true. . 611 Q Okay, now what effort did you make to see that the distributor took back iron their customers this material? ' A We made no specific effort to make sure that he went to his customers to recall; if was recommended that he inform his custoroots. -. WATER PCB-SD0000035259 114 612 Q What, Inform them of what? A Two things. Early on, we had informed our distributors that FCB's were being found la the environment Most of the findings referred to Afoclor 1254, and let's make sura that this material is not permitted to be dumped into the environment-- some of here is what we understand. This was in February. ' . And lafccnr, when we decided to terminate sales, we told the distributor we are going to stop sales on August 30. w& suggest you tell your customers there 'will he* no more FCB's available after August 30. We even 'want so far as to suggest attached is a form of a letter that you might want: to consider using. 6.13 Q Did you follow that up in any way? A Yes, we did check with our distributors through our marketing, people ns to***-did you get our letter? Rave you done what we suggested? And the. answer generally came back, yeah, we heard you and we are out there; we are. communicating . 614 'Q So you asked your sales people, and 1 assume marketing people mean.a your sales people? A Correct. 615 0 To follow tap on that? ' WATER PCB-SD0000035260 115 A To s, 616 Q Did you have a written directive to him to do that? A Wo, no <. . 617 Q Did you. have_ them make a report as to what they had dome? ' A Hot to Kses personally. 613 Q To anyone? k I didndt see any; 1 don't know if any existed, 619 Q You weren't given a form or anything like that? A Wot to tty knowledge 620 Q You would know, would you not, as the head coordinator? A I wouldn't know everything, -no. 621 Q Wot: :in every detail, of course? A Ho way. - 622 Q But: you know whether or not there was such a program? A I .would know that ' om: marketlug people knew of the - situation, and they knew what was expected of them,. and I would expect the managers to fulfill their duties 622 Q Did the company, that is Monsanto reimburse the. distribu ' for for any PCB material that the distributor took ' back from their customers? A 1 don't know. We don't, the material that-returned to us, wo don't know' where if cams from, but. whatever-- WATER PCB-SD0000035261 1X6 624 Q Anything that was returned to you? A We reimbursed* 625 Q And you did Cell the distributor, go get it, send it in? A. lb at is right:,, 626 Q You mentioned that: this Cumar was made in a company plant; you didn't know the name of the company that made it, but you did indicate you knew where it was, ' where was it? A X didn't know that 1 said plant* 1 was in,formed by our attorneys who are respon sible for handling litigation situations of a formula, of a coating referred to Lara, in the Midwest here as Cumat 627 q Rigid; * * A And this all came from the lawyers. .. 62$ Q Wall, they are good people, go ahead* ` A 1 know that, but 1 have no way of knowing where they got: it, or how valid it was, but nevertheless, they told me about Cusnnr. Did I know anything about it? 1 told them X didn't know anything about it. Later, they came back and says, here Is a formula and recipe, 1 forget, there are a half a dozen ingredients listed, one of them was our Arcelor 1254,- and they asked roe WATER PCB-SD0000035262 117 then, do you recognise this, and that: la the first, I said, that la the first X have seen it, and that is really the extent of any knowledge of Guiaar* 629 9 What X was trying to get at was, I thought you knew where it was mad# , not tb.e name, of the company, not the name of the company, but where? . A. X was told, again by attorney's that there is a man by the name of Egan associated with the silo company, 630 Q This was Bloomfield Silo? ' A X am sorry? . 631 Q Bloomfield Silo? ' X don * t want; to interrupt you too much, A Ho. 63.?. 0 do ahead, excuse roe, * A. I don't associate that with Bloomfield* Michigan Silo-' Mr. Egan with Michigan Silo Company had formulated " this rc.c5.pe, and It: was used to coat silos. Again, all of this came from our attorneys. 633 0 Vlhen did you get this from your attorneys? . A I, think this started to develop in 1971. 634 Q All right, now then to refresh your recollection as pert of that formula, there was Aroclor 5480 in the smount of 7.0 pounds, ao,d Aroclor 1254 in the amount of WATER PCB-SD0000035263 118 70 pounds, out of a. total of about 200 and some-odd pounds.* Were you familiar with that fact? A I had forgotten, but 1 don't remember the numbers. 633 Q How complaints, say whan you received complaints from silo users avid manufacturers, they went to you, did they not? X Hot necessarily. 636 Q Well, you got wind of them, did you not? . A Some off them/, 637 i> Did you not. Are there some that you don * t know about? A I have a belief that some complaints regarding silos went to our Legal Department, and it is at their discretion as to when they would inform me and involve mss. - '` 633 Q S-Jho is Mr. Cory? A Hr. Cory at one time was ray superior. * . 639 Q What did ha do, and at what time was ha your superior? A Vx* Cory was my superior at the time Monsanto reorgan- lae.d and formed the Monsanto Industrial Chemicals Company, and my job was placed under his supervision. This was 1373 or 4, somewhere in there. 640 0 Prior to thi&t time, your job came under what division WATER PCB-SD0000035264 119 or part? A It was prior to that, it was the Organic Division. 641 Q 0?ray. And after *73, it all was under the Monsanto Industrial Chemicals Company? . A Up until 1976. 642 Q All right. Kbo in the nan in the legal Department who is, to whom you reported regarding PGB*s? - A Thera wereseveralmany. 643 0 llio was the beadman then? m. Goamm: 'When ? 644 Q In the legal Department, A At what time? ' 646 Q when you ware in charge of. coordinating all the PGB work, Savestigntion of m:U Is, warning, whatever? A Putsell was the corporate general counsel and head of the legal Department. 646 0 . Vho war; John Stapleton? . A Doha Stapleton reported to Mr. FufczeXl arid took care of legal wxv.tcjtn for Monsanto Indil>t^aTial Chemical Ccr.pnry fron. 3.173 to about some, time in 1974, 1 forget: WATER PCB-SD0000035265 120 the evact times. 647 Q All -eight,, now "have you aivy litigation with some feed mruifacCmrers on account of PCD*s getting into the r,, ,n -o A X believe X recall one* When you. any with them, were ihay^ 64B Q (Tell, again, ''them'' or ''they'* would, be against you, oj>~ . A X don't know the exact situation, but there was a feed situation involved in upper Hew Toxic, and another heed situation involved in Mew Hampshire, f] Vhow about Michigan? . I haven't heard of any Michigan situations. 6 !> 0 Q Did yc-u have any litigation with or against Campbell Soup on account of FCk's other than this chicken? A dot that X know of. ' 651 0 Was that litigated? . A I. don't: know; not to my 1 enow ledge. 652 Q What happened to .it, that claim? A I don't know. ' 653 Q Old you have any litigation with .anyone regarding nnv other true of animals having FCB's? - <1 . O -n , WATER PCB-SD0000035266 654 Q What? A In New Hampshire,, we had a mink exposure 655 Q A what? A Mink exposure, 656 Q What was that about? A The allegation was that the minks suffered ill health, mid did not reproduce ao expected boeanoe of Ingestion of PCB's. . 657 Q What Is the claim as to how they got this FCB's? A This claim was that the PGIi's ware present in duck offal, which was fed to the wink, 658 Q Wild ducks? " A No, those woreLong Island duck, 659 Q How did the LongIsland duck get if? A The allegation there was that the feed that the duck ingested was contaminated with TCh's, 660 Q And how-*'* A- There were two possible, at least, two possible routes, One is from the presence of FOB1 s In Iriks used in . packaging of waste bakery or stale bakery goods. The other is a possibility of PCF's being present in floor sweepings or what have you from, a bakery operation. WATER PCB-SD0000035267 661 Q Did you have any .litigation with any county, inter county cooperative? A Yes, that is the one X hod in find when I ment: lowed upper York* X think that. the 1 ntnr-county 662 Q What was that about , if yem know? A That had to do with poultry bain?; exposed to contam inated feed# 663 Q Is that the complaint regarding eggshells, ox' is that the one where they had to take the skin off of them? A Well, X don't know the relationship. 664 Q How did you sell PCB?s to the. general mrket, foy volume, or wei.ght, or-- A It 5.s sold by weight# 665 Q How is it packaged, as X rodoretend it, It. was & liquid? A PCS'a were liquid. 666 Q Pome of course were a little rror thick them others, 1 assume? A Correct, that was sold anywhere from five gallea pails to tank carSj, railroad cars, t.nn> rnr lots. 667 Q Would that be by the round, in ekbet vonas? . A Always sold by the pound, yes. 668 Q How rtuch a pound did you. sell it? A Ch, X don't reirtirber. . WATER PCB-SD0000035268 123 669 Q $15,00 a pound? $15,00 a pound would be right, or was it 30? A No, no, it is much lass than that. It was in cents per pound,, 1 have forgotten, 670 Q Say it again? A Cents per pound. - 671 Q You mean less than S? ' . A Well, it didn't get that low, . X will have to guess"-'l5# a pound, 25 0 a pound# 672 Q X see. A Something like that, and it rose with the times, and - the cost, 673 Q What did It cost you to make it? A Again, I don11 remember, - 674 Q In. your plant that you wt-.ro in charge of:'! A X honestly don't remember, 675 Q Didn't you have cost effective studies ant! that sort of thing? MR. REESE: Well, 1 object to this line of questioning, MR,, YOUNG: X will crocs out the question., MR. REESE: Thank you, . - WATER PCB-SD0000035269 676 Q 1 thought you had to have * You know what the cost is, that was my question; A 1 doa*t'reosmber. X did know at one time. 677 Q Would It be about half ol` what you told? MR. REESE: This witness has told you three times he does not remember. New 1 object to the quastion and X Instruct the witness not to answer', and let's get on with the deposition. ' MR. YGMG: We will get along just fine without your sticking your nose into It. MR. REESE: We can got: along just fina unless you start' asking the same question four times, and 1 don*t intend to sifc here the rest of my life to listen fco it. MR, YOUNG: Did 1 ask a question about how much it cost before? MR. REESE; Three times. IE, YOUNG; Did X get an .answer? MR, REESE: Be said hs did not know. You have got an answer, MR, YOUNG: I. am trying; to help him, MR* IlEESEr X know you are trying to help him, but WATER PCB-SD0000035270 125 he has answered the question, and. that Is what lie is hero for* I have no objections t:o his antwsring. ISt. YOuhG: You are getting awfully cantankerous, HR. REESE: Hell, I am getting tired of hearing the same question over and over. 678 Q 1 have got oust more questiont what time does your plane leave? A 5:35* MR. REESE; Maybe. THE WITNESS: There Is a maybe there, five some.thing. . 111. YOMG: All right now, just a second, X want to have a powwow and step outside, . *, .At this time, a recess tatun, AFTER RECESS ' . 679 <] .Mr. Papageorge, you told us about: going to Ohio, and personally inspecting these sides et that one place* wan that: the Humphrey fatal? . A Yes, sir, . 680 Q And you rcenlloned going to another: place over there. - ly was that;, and Yvc. s? WATER PCB-SD0000035271 121 A It was in that same area, Mr*, 1 think it is Schwartz- welder, X believe that was the man. * 3 name, he was another dairy farner, 68.1 Q Schwar tr.waldsr ? A Schv?art2walder, S"c-h~w~a~r"t~s~w~a~X~d~e-r, X think, X believe that is the name. If; is something close to that, 682 Q Is that; Canton., or is that elsewhere? A It is within driving distance of Canton, Ohio* I have forgotten the exact location, sir. 683 Q What did you find there? A' Mot very much. 684 Q What did you go there for? A Because lJ.i\ Scbwnrtxwaldar' s -milk had been embargoed at: one time by Dr. Hill's office, hut be managed to get the level of FOB * s below, into an acceptable level; therefore, he. was able to market his milk quickly, much morn quickly than the Humphreys, 685 Q What did he do? How did he do that? . A X do not lenov?, 686 Q All right, what did you do when you went there?. A 1 was trying really to gat abatter understanding of WATER_PCB-SD0000035272 127 the total dairy s3/fcuatlon, silos, silage. As a city boy, I knew nothing, so I started from zero knowledge, and X looked over his idle silo. It was emptyJ nothing in it. - He was happy to show it to roe, but he indicated to ms that his milk was acceptable, and that he had no particular problem. Glad to meat me kind of thing, very social, so 1 really found out nothing from that last visit. - 687 Q Did you examine the silo? A Visually 1 looked at: it. - 688 Q Did you take any samples from the silos? A X don't, 1 had intended to, but I don't recall if I did. X don't know. * 639 Q .Weil, you would probably have some record of that, would you not? A There was a record at one time, after the analytical .result. I. do not know where it is at present. 690 Q So you would have taken something to get an analytical result, would you not? A If 1 took a sample, the result would have been recorded. 691 Q Did you, v/hat did you determine was the source of the - that was found in his milk? WATER PCB-SD0000035273 128 A Oh, 1 didn't make any determination there, I couldn't. 692 Q What did h tell you? ' A All he told me was that they found some PCB's in hia milk at a certain time, and several days later he checked it again, and It was acceptable, and it took all his milk. 693 Q What did he. tell you he did with the silage? A I cca confusing the two farms. 1 don't remember specifically what he did with his. ' 694 Q But you say it was empty? A Xfc was empty, yes. 693 Q Did you ask him why it was empty, if everything was hunkj"dory? A X don't recall asking him why* He was telling me that he was feeding then hay and other kinds of feed, and that he had abandoned the silo, was not using it any longer. 696 Q Was that because it had PCB's in It and would contam inate the silage, did he say? A X do not, 1 did not ask 1dm. . 697- Q How did you happen to go? A ' Because I, heard that his was one. . 698 Q How did you hear that? ' WATER PCB-SD0000035274 129 A Dr,, Hill's, and also our Legal Department by then, this was in '71, yes. Legal Department informed me of Seh&artswal.dsr. 699 Q That he had made a claim, X take it? A Must have been* 700 Q hhat disposition of his claim was made? A I don't know* 701 Q Mxat other formal inspections did you make in your effort to learn all about the farming problem? A Those are the only two that 1 visited. 702 q On that occasion, but X am talking about any other time? A 1 don't recall visiting any other farms. X met with other dairy farmers, but not at their farms. 703 Q Did you get the total silage story from the observa tion at those two farms in Ohio? A X. got the story from the ttvo known instances in 1970 before wa terminated the sale, of FOB1 s for that kind of use. 7 04 Q Are you saying that; the only two silos that you . inspected were those at the Humphreys and also the Schwartz,wiIdcr farms? .' A Those nre the only dairy farms where X physically with WATER PCB-SD0000035275 130 my own eyes saw the silos and entered the silos. 705 Q Bow you said that you conferred with cattle raisers and milk people*, dairy farmers? A Uh-huh* 706 Q Wlmfc was the occasion for that? A o visited acme dairy fanners in Michigan in 1975. 707 Q Was that where they condemned all the cattle up there and buried them 16 feet under ground? A Bo. 708 Q Thousands of them? A 7 hadn't heard that, not with FOB*s, heard it with . another chemical. 709 Q Yes. '- ' A FCBfs? ' ME. COCHRAHr Howard, X believe you are mistaken, X think you are-TM . 710 Q FCB`s. You wrote the-- ME. COCHPvAil: What ycu are talking about, Howard, is FPB1 &. 1-511. YOUNG: X am not, you knew X am not asking you, John. You just forget that. WATER PCB-SD0000035276 131 MR.* G0CI51WI: 1 am making an objection to your misleading statements. . W.. YOUNG: 1 am asking the witness. 711 Q Do you recall the. question? A Yes, I am not aware of any burial of cattle because of PG'B contamination. 712 Q Wall, X interrupted you x?itb. that, X was trying to help you & little bit, . But what aiy question was-- REESE: With that kind of help, Bill, you got all the friends you can handle. ' THE VXXHESS: 1. can \ise all the help I can get. 713 Q But my question was, why you went to make these talks to meet: these other dairy farmers, what was the occasion? You said you went to Michigan. Now then, X in terruptad, A Our legal Department was contacted by attorneys in Michigan wanting to discuss PGB's in dairy cattle, . and milk. 714 Q Where did you go? A h'a made a visit- of many cities in Michigan. * WATER PCB-SD0000035277 132 X remember Flint and Lansing, Michigan, and it seems to me there 'were a couple more other cities in Michigan. Vfe made a tour of several cities over several days, 713 Q 'What was the occasion you wanted to go talk to them, new why did you want to go talk to them? A So find out what is the situation, what is it we can : do to haIp that kind of approach. 716 Q What was the problem that: they were having that you thought you might help them with? ' A It appeared to be similar to the general problem, coatings, silage, contaminated milk kind of problem. 717 Q Okay. A That was our understanding. , . 718 Q ykm at the time, did you learn that the coating was Cutnar in these silos that you were going to help these followa with? A 1 don't recall that the word Cutaar was used. 719 Q What kind of coatings then? A 1 never cum the coating, they alleged that their silos were coated, and they thought that the contamination came from the coating, - ' WATER PCB-SD0000035278 133 720 Q Vibo was the manufacturer, or who put, made the silos? A I don' t know ,, 72,1 Q Who it Michigan Silo? A X don't know, there ware several silo companies men tioned, and I frankly have forgotten, there were so many mentioned, 722 Q When was that? A 1973, 723 Q You made a report, I assume of this? You remember a Kt,, Bassert up there? A. Yes, I believe he was an employee of a silo company, that we with in one of those towns or cities, 724 Q Hall, he was the, owner, wasn't he? . A I don't romcrsber, 725 Q 'Well, at any rafts, did you make a report of this? A X persona'll.? did not make a report,, 726 Q Who was with you on that trip? . A A Mr. Lon MacFarland. . 727 Q L-o how? . . A L-o-n is his first nan:, M~a- c**F-a- r-1- a~ n- d. 723 0 Who else? A That is all. 773 0 'Aio raade the report? ' WATER PCB-SD0000035279 134 A Mr, MacFaxIant! made the report. 730 Q To whom? . A I think to his own file. Ho la an attorney. 731 Q Was he with your company? A He was working for my company, end as to, he is an independent attorney, I don1?: know what the right words are--"in Columbia*. Tennessee * 732 Q What was he doing up in Michigan? ' A Well, he is the attorney that up instil then had been involved with silos iu Tennersee, and had experience ' with silos,, and he was asked by ike os auto to look.. Into the Michigan situation. 733 Q Mow you were requested by the *Lcg,X Department to wake. that trip. Did you 'not make a report to them? A Mo, Mr, Macfvrland made the report, 734 Q To your legal Department? A Yea. . 735 Q You think that was *75? You remember %lmfz period of the year it was? A Mot really, no. 736 Q All right, you made speeches around here and there, did you not? WATER PCB-SD0000035280 A Yes, sir, . 737 Q Where all have you made speeches7 A Have 1 made the as ? 738 ' Q Regarding~-where all have you nn<k* -'peaches regarding PCB's? A For the entire period of time, I don't ror-jeiiber all of them. . 739 Q Well, just do the best you can. A I made prsentations before a group of interested individuals, government and university in Forth Carolina, as- 7. remember the place '"is on lied Quail .Roost, Quail * a Roost, l have was located. 1 H*rh;: where that 740 q Sounds like n weekend hideaway.? A Yes, that was very pleastnt, that is Why 1 rerwaiber that, first, . That was one ot: the early reef Ings on I have made p.-resent/; fionhvf'vtf* the Wisconsin, 1 believe it is cal .Led the }?*:* part >'** of: Maturnl . Re sources,, I made- a presentation before the Associated Carden Clutrn of M! eh .1 pan or ?oxr cueh title, 1 ara . not ccrtobu o ? there? Wthr, ' WATER PCB-SD0000035281 06 741 Q Well, you made numerous speeches then? A Yes. 742 0 Dio you make substantial.! y the speech evetywhe.ce? A It depended upon, the period of tine* and what new information Icould add to it. 743 Q How if your attorneys approve, may we have a copy of your speech? A I have never put it in writing. 744 Q You do have a copy of your speech? , A Mo, it was off the top of i\v/ head kind of An approach * 743 Q How you did h&v one speech written, out* Aid you net? A There was a presentation I made, before Congress that ' was written cut. - 746 Q All rights when was that? ' A '74-`75. 747 Q What was that before, was that this talk presentation to Congress? Was it a Cosu^ittae.t or~ i Was it before the full Mouse, or what? A Itwas a Committee of Congress. 748 Q Which Conucrltie? A I have forgotten the full title,, but if had something to do with the Nerchant liar lues that was chal.rd by a Representative from Masaachuseti:.u In n>* district WATER PCB-SD0000035282 13? there were some electrical apparatus manufacturers, . and he was most interested In the ecnitlmsed use of PCB's in electrical apparatus. And he asked rea for tills. 749 Q Was that published in the Congressloixg.1 Record? A I don!l know. 750 Q You didn't receive a copy of it;' A I didnft personally see the Congves.aion.?. 1 Record ,, 751 Q But anyway, you think that was ,iw *74. What season of the year? A 1 don't remember, 752 r4 All right now, you recall the occasion in. Michigan in 1970 to 1971 whan, a large number of cattle got some feed in which had .Baer* rained, `mingled or mixed 'with . PCB's? A That is not truthful. 753 Q Well, you recall that occasion? A I recall**-* . 754 Q That occurrence? A X recall an occasion where another ebsrutc.nl was reported to have been mixed in with feed. . 755 Q Was that-*-not;? tell rue about that* please? A As X understood U: Crow vend leg the trad* iomnals and WATER PCB-SD0000035283 c f ].?S popular press, and in talking to a representative o the Michigan Chemical Company, fcha chemical was Polybrorainatcd Biphenyls.. 756 Q Polybromi'aatocl, what was the last vord? A Biphenyl, B~i~p-h~e-n~y~X. 757 Q What was the difference between, the Polyp nominated and the FCB's? . A Chlorinated, where, FCB ' s have a chlorine attached, the bromin.atcd has .a bromine attached * 758 Q Instead of this-*" A In stead of chlorine. V* .q1 O^ Q In. the sorao amount? A It could l` 6 1 don't Ickc; how much bromine, they o. <1dec. to the chemise 1 A * 760 Q now much dllTerence <1 id that ra;iko, -O the product <7. jvrvtween P C'B and this Folybram.hujtod Biphenyl? A In what r ega,rd? 761 Q As to its ch.aracter, or ehoranl;crl sties? A I .am told by our Modi end l'op;v.tt"merit to,at the b.tr.cminuted version Is pore toxic. 762 Q lion ranch core? A I don ' ?: know, 763 Q Was that y-^jv prctlue!:' WATER PCB-SD0000035284 139 A No, sir. 764 Q 'Whose product was it? A Michigan Chemical Company C 765 Q Uow many times have, you testified in Court regarding PCB * s? A In two esses, 766 Q Where were they? A In Knoxville, Tennessee, end in Concord* f'ew Hampshire, 767 Q When? . A X believe the ik-w Hampshire was 1974* and the Knoxville case 1973. 768 Q Okay, what were the names of the plaint Ilfs? A I don' t recall the individuals in Tennessee. New Hampshire it was the,, thou wire three raiuk ranchers that, were the plaintiffs. 769 Q That had to do with the ducks? A yes, yes. 770 Q All right, now what was the result in those coses? A T.rr Tennessee, Monsanto was, and X don't'. know the right legal express ion, was released by the? Judge as not being- 771 Q Found for the company? . f A He just dismissed me and sent mu I.snn, WATER PCB-SD0000035285 140 m q Well-- A Di strdssed Monsanto. 773 Q 1 see* you sat through the trial on behali: of Monsanto? A Yes, sir, and 1 testified for Monsanto 774 q Was this a jury trial or a Judge trial?. A Jury trial ' 773 Q Did the company put in any evidence, or was it dis missed foefore ths company put la any evidence? Did you testify, in other words? A I testified, but X was a witness for the General Electric attorney 776 q I see. - A And I submitted Monsanto labels and Monsanto letters and the like . 777 Q Was General Electric released? ' ' A No 773 Q Xn that case? A Mo, sir 779 q Were they held liable? ' ' A It- is my understanding they were 760 q (Sow what did that irf.vo.lve? A There was a transformer delivered from the' General Electric plant in Rome, Georgia on its way to a customer traveling through Tennessee and the WATER PCB-SD0000035286 141 transformer developed a leak at the opening which was not tightly capped. 78'}.. Q That was GE's transformer? A GE1 a trsttsfomer, and the material was alleged to have sprayed on some farmland, on the shoulder of the highway, and sprayed on some individuals driving by in a truck, and the truck driver was asked to get off the. road by a State trooper, and he got instructions from his dispatcher to unload the rest of the oil, and he released it on the shoulder of the road, and that is the story, 782 Q Were any cattle or anything of this sort: involved? A X believe soma of the testimony did indicate that the animals on that particular farm were either affected or their vale had been reduced 783 Q -Tore they slaughtered? A Co, no ,, 784 Q And the plaintiff won in. this case as against GE? A X really don't know* 785 Q To you know any other cases where you 'have testified in Court? A Wo j, s it. 7?.'0 0 'That was the -outcome of the mink case? WATER PCB-SD0000035287 142 A That was a very complex decision* The primary, and X am not going to use the right legal terns, but Ag~W&y Company, which was the feed formulator was judged by the jury to have been the principal, and X don't know the right words here, but they are the ones that paid the greater amount to three plaintiffs. 787 Q Was it settled, or did if go to verdict? A It went to a verdict, 788 Q What was the verdict? ' A Gosh, I don't know that X can repeat it. There were, as X rcmembers four of us found guilty in varying degrees, and the awards were calculated by some com plex mathematical formula the.Judge worked out, and Monsanto was one of the four* Ag-Way Chemical was the one judged to be most in the position to have been-- 789 Q Was the judgment paid? ' A X don't, know* 790 f> Was it appealed? ' A It was not appealed, to my knowledge* 791 Q Cot appealed* When was that verdict? ` WATER PCB-SD0000035288 143 A In '74, 792 Q What was the complaint against, was that the case in which the minks got some duck--* A Ye.ap sir* 793 Q You said ot'fsfl? A That is the intestines and whatever they clean up out of it, 794 Q So Ag-W&y processed that, Ag~Way had processed the. intestines? A Hop Ag-Way prepared the feed. The feed was delivered to the. Long Island duck farm, and 1 forgot their names** the two brothers ran the farm--and when they would slaughter the birds, they would save the intestines and what, have you, and freer. them In blocks and . deliver" them to these mink farmers who in turn would 'feed them to the mink over a period of time. 793 Q And Ag-vJay then fed the ducks? A 'Ho, - 796 Q Furnished the feed for the ducks? .1 Yes-*-okay# yes, 797 Q You remember some, a problem with turkeys? A Yes. Mow that you mention it, there was something about turkeys. WATER PCB-SD0000035289 144 798 Q Big trouble, 'big trouble with turkeys, wasn't it? A Couldn't have been too big* 1 don't remember any thing about it* 799 Q Well, let refresh your recollection* Didn't you have complaints concerning turkeys in Missouri and in Minnesota and in Maine? A X remember something about turkeys, but I don't remember anything developing from that* 809 Q You. would have records on that if there was, your Legal .Department, anyway? A They might* X don't know* HR. YOtBG: that is all, thank you. THE WITNESS: Thank you*. ME* GUAY: I have just, a few questions* THE WITNESS: Okay. GROSS ISAHIKAIIOH, 'QUESTIONS BY MS.'* DAVID W. GRAY: . 801 Q To your knowledge, were PGB'a ever used in any sort of insecticidea? ' A Yes. SG'.i Q Do you know which ones? - A I do not know the insecticides by name. WATER PCB-SD0000035290 145 X know that the Department of Agriculture in articles; published by representatives of the DepartTM meat had recommended using FOB's in insecticides particularly with an attempt to get at the gypsy moth, as X remember * The PCB's were found to extend the effectiveness of the pesticide over a longer period of time*' 803 ri You. don't know, or recall the trade names of any of these Insecticides? A Ko, I don11* 804 Q Their maoufacturers? A ho. 803 Q To your knowledge, ware PCB's ever used in any sort of fertilisers? ' A hot to my knowledge 804 Q flow about war they ever used in weed killers? A Yes, I mentioned earlier the use in which the PCB's in a weed-killing formulation, . - 807 Q Do you recall the trade name of those weed killers that trvyy have contained PCB's? A Ho, X don't, 806 Q To the bust of your knowledge, could any PCB loaded bydcnulic systems be found cm any farm machinery? WATER PCB-SD0000035291 146 A It is possible, SOI) Q Du you know what type of machinery they could be found on, perhaps? A It is possible that they would be found in any device that needs a fluid to function the mechanism, 810 Q, Gould that be for example a farm tractor? A, Could be, 811 Q Or perhaps other farm implement equipment? A Could be, x 312 Q Bow about an electrical system containing PCS' a, might that be found on a farm? A It Is possible. 81.3 Q Gould you describe briefly what sort of electrical systems that could be found on a farm that might . contain PCB's? . A That assumes I know quite a bit about farm equipment, and !*' 814 0 .To the best of your knowledge. ' A It is quite likely that there are motors that have motor starters and capacitors that contain PCX5*s in them. It is possible that there are transformers present in an installation, ' WATER PCB-SD0000035292 147 Of course, all of these fluorescent fixtures have little capacitors in them, that contain PCB's them. 015 Q Do you. know .if other domestic producers of PCB's besides Monsai nto have made or did make PCB's to be used as the term plasticisers? A I do not know where their PCB's are sold. 016 q Or for what function? A Or for what function, yes. Ml, Gift?: That is all X have, thank you. OhESIXO; 3t m. KKX.TH C. REESE: 817 Q Hr. Fapageorge, my recollection of some of the testimony her today, 1 think Mr. Young did inquire of you as to whether Monsanto had made certain studies concerning the effects on the environment of PCB's. You remember that question? A Ye a, 818 Q .tail, you indicated that: some, studies had been made? A 'Yes, 1 rote,ember that. 819 q My recollection is that you did not say anything about a biodegradation study. Was that study done by Honcanto ? WATER PCB-SD0000035293 You may recall X mentioned there were some studies ro.-s/jo. In which we simulated in the laboratory a municipal waste treatment system where the PCB*.s were found to be consumed or disappeared. Yea, . . that would fit under environment treatment studies. And. that would be another study then that you would add to your answer to that: question, is that right? Yes, I would. X should have, yes. And I have just arm other question. 1 recall Hr. Young asking you about: certain,, instructions or letters to Monsanto distributors. In essence, what did we tell our distributors when this letter went out which was in 570, I think you testified to February-March of *70? I am trying to recall. It seems to m there were at least two letters; one informing them of a. developing situation in the discovery of PGB!s in the. environment, and that we should not release these materials in the environment and we attached to that, as 1 remember, a copy of an article that appeared in a trade journal, one of Che chum ice! journals which talked about water pollution WATER PCB-SD0000035294 149 ami the like. klrat was in February. - Them 1 aker, after cite corporate management crnr-al.kfoe approve*} the withdrawal program, wa sent letters to distributors informing them that as of August 30* 1970, we would no longer sell them, ship them any JXJB' a, and J, balinve-"-!. am not too sure at. this point whether with that letter or an additional latter, we also included a program where we would buy back material that they had in inventory, still with Monsanto*o label on it* In, other wozdo, our naterial at some schedule * B22 0 Mr. Young 7 think then asked you in connection with that inquiry one of his summary questions was, in . ossenea, did Monsanto tell the distributors to get it hack from their customers, and send it hack to Monsanto, and X think perhaps you agreed with that summary of a question by Mr. Young. . Is that accurate, do you agree? A Mo, X misunderstood that. Wo did. not tell them you go ot.it and contact all of your customers and bring back any material they had, OO WATER PCB-SD0000035295 150 MR. REESE: I have nothing further. REDIRECT EXAMINATION, QUESTIONS BY I'E. HCtWI-.D S,, YCVEG, JR.: 823 Q What did you tell them in that rcsapeet? A X don't recall w@ told them anything specific, W@ relied oa their good judgment as to how to handle their customers,, 824 Q You told them that you would buy back any of the stuff that the})' would send back? A Correct, ' 825 Q All right., now then, this blodagra&afc.tors studyf what was the result of It? A The study allowed that the, and 1 don't m*.n to confuse- too much hare, fcbo PCS * s with the lower asrsount of chlorine would vanish from, the system, would dis appear . . 826 Q The lower the chlorine the quicker? A The lower the chlorine the quicker they would be ' digested or consumed by Urn bacteria which was most encouraging to show that It was not* these particular PCB's were not persistent. . The higher chlorinated would persist, WATER PCB-SD0000035296 151 827 Q How long? A This particular study, as I remember, was six months, 828 Q How by ''higher", how high? A We are talking non about five chlorines and higher per group. ( 829 Q In percentages? A In percentages, the five chlorines were roughly 507. or more, ' 830 Q 507, or more of the entire, volume? A Ho, where the chlorine was 50% of the total weight? 831 Q Yes. A Of that group, 832 Q That, would last longer, is that what you are saying? A That would '.Last longer, * 833 Q That would last up to six month;*? A At least in this case, yes, - 834 Q In that case, What was the data .of that study? A 1971? 835 Q I don't know, A '72--about *71-'72. 836 Q Tliere would be a record of that, wouldn* t there?' A Yes. WATER PCB-SD0000035297 3.52 837 Q Who made that study? A Monsanto research chemists. 838 Q What department, in your department? A In the Research Department of Monsanto Industrial Chemicals Company, and as I recall"- 839 Q Go ahead, X am sorry, ME. REESE; Go ahead. A Tills was reported to the government agency representa tives who were part of that interagency task force that put together" a report that they issued, finally' issued, in May of 1972, 840 Q Was that a government program? A Yes, sir. * 841. Q Funded by the government? A Yes, six", 842 Q Was it: EPA or what agency? A It was,. it included EPA, USPA, FDA,. Do.pa.rfmnnfc of ' Commerce, That is all, 843 Q Any other study of a biodegradable nature? A Wot to my knowledge* 844 Q What did you do, nlrrfc did you do later? What was the nature, of the study? WATER PCB-SD0000035298 1l*rJ\ '.J<t A Hie system is designed to simulate. a laxge community system. 845- Q Okay, sewage? A Sewage system in which you take--we11, actually we went to a sewage system and got a culture, and introd uced it into the. equipment, glass equipment, and bubble air through it., and then studied it to see what is loft after so raaxij hours, 846 Q I see, how long would it take to degrade it if you put if through a sewage treatment plant? A Correct, that Is the intent,, 84? Q That is all that was? A Right. 848 Q Did you. do any other biodegradable studios? A There were some studies dime in whale;?, by a university professor. 849 Q Do any in aliases? _ A There were some studies - 'e.dc by the- of Agriculture, Dr. George Freese, nod the chin Agricul ture Research Station .in Wooster, by Don hil'let on the nature of~~ 850 Q What is the name, of this Wooster, Ohio. thing? . A If is the, if is the Ohio AgfItultuvo Re search WATER PCB-SD0000035299 154 Station;, or some such words* 851 Q Was that done wltli what kind of animals* did you say? A Cattle, 852 Q Cattle? . A Dr, Will'et. i 853 Q What was the conclusion? . - A 1 have forgotten the exact data, but in time, the PCB's in cattle do diminish in the cattle themselves, and in their milk. Tint is it, 854 Q Never disappear? A Yes, 853 Q Just diminishas? . .A With time, 856 Q Never goes mmy? A X think they reached the point: where be couldn't detect: It any longer 857 Q Now Mr, Papageorge, If a .PCD will stay in a silo 30-40-30 years, what' is-the formula- of PCB that would be so long-lastlog as all that ? MR, GRAY: 1 am going to object to the form of the question, because X think it* ansucesr things that haven * t bean proven. WATER PCB-SD0000035300 .1 ! O MR. (XHIHRAtl: Join in the objection A 1 don't think X understand Che wording, of the question in that if PCS' 6 stay in a silo 30 years. That will depend an awful lot on what is happening to those i PCS1 s 838 Q Sure it would, but vbat 1 want to get at is the formula that is the longest lasting of the PCB's that would last that long under the most lasting coiuUtions? A Well, that is very difficult to answer,, because If nothing is present to react with or consume, etc. or what have you, no matter what material you put under it, it will last forever, 859 Q That is what 1 thought. . A But if you put a material in there such as ftowe of these bacteria 1 talked about earlier., and give them a chance to get at that PCB, they will start eating and cmi sura trig it, or if you put lv< there 860' Q Well, what*, is the formula, of the VCR that is mast resista5.it to that type of dograrlni. lorii A The. most resistant PCB is the one with the highest chlorine. 861 Q Highest chlorine? WATER PCB-SD0000035301 A That; ^ould be the ten chlorines > that is the maximum. 862 Q What about 5460? A That would have in it some of the resistant onesp not the whole* 863 Q 60%? i ME, COCHRAN; Walt a minute, VJcm'ld you repeat tha question? Chlorine, the particular chemical you are interested in, you say 5460? 864 Q 5460? . A That is not a PGB, 865 Q That is Thermin.al, tsr?it it? A Ko, that is a solid wcty kind of: material that ls~~ 866 Q What about 1254? A All right, that is wbat 1 thought; you ha;:! -scant,, 1254, 867 Q Well, thanks for correcting raa. That ie x-Ai&t X meant ' MR, REESE; That is all right- A Now in that material Monsanto called 1254, there are some PCB* s that have six, seven and. eight: chlorines p-68 Q Ring? WATER PCB-SD0000035302 A Per double ring, 869 Q The higher the chlorine contents the more resisfcsafc it becomea. The more fire resistant th more degradation and so on. 1 870 Q You have seen the formula for Curaar, that, .is the 1254, what is used in Curaar? . A That is a recipe 1 saw somewhere,, 871 Q Formula? . A Well, all right. 872 Q 1254, that was used in it, wasIt not? A That is my--that Is whsfc 1 am told. 873 Q Okay, all right. Who are your distributors in Indiana? A I don't know. . 874 Q Who knows? A 1 would, it would have to be the marketing people, ~ marketing, 875 Q Who were the distributors in Indiana la 1970 when you put out: this letter or these two ox* three letters? A I recall the Hat, but 1 don't recall ike names any longer. 876 Q Whom should we ask, didycu cay,X mean, nn individual? WATER PCB-SD0000035303 JL5C 1 don't mean a whole department. A It would have to be one of three people, Mr. Walter Shalk. 877 Q S-h-a-l-k? A S-h-a-l-k, Or Mr. Willis Clark, and Dr. Camming Paton. 878 Q Are they all St. Louis people? A Mr. Shalk is in St. Louis; 1 believe the other two are overseas on. some assignment overseas, 879 Q All right, they will bss back one of these days* X assume? They will be in St# Louis when they return t;o St. Louis? . A 1 don't know. AND HHi'IHKP. DEPOHLNT SAITH NOT William B. Papagcorgo WATER PCB-SD0000035304 STATE OF INDIANA ) ) comm OF MARION ) SS; I, H&xttm i' Tiorasy, a Notary Public and SCeno- type Reporter In and for the County of Marion, State of Indiana, do hereby certify that WILLIAM XL -FAPAGEO&GE, deponent herein, was by me first sworn to tell the. truth, the whole truth y.nd. nothing but the truth, la a cause in which CL PL Bottesa-s, Jr*, d/b/a Botteraa Farms is plaintiff, and Monsanto Company, Bloom ' field Silo Company, Concrete Silo Company, Indiana Brand i Company, Madison Brand Company, John Boa, and John Doe, Inc* arc defendants, now pending in the Superior' Court of Merlon County, Indiana; that Che foregoing deposition was taken at the instance of the plaintiff, at the^offices of Tierney Importlug Co., 928 Circle Tower Building, in the City of Indianapolis, County of Marion, State of Indiana, on the 6th clay of August, 1981, between the hours of 0:00 ALL and 6:00 P JL ; that the above is a true and accurate transcript of my notes so taken; that the deposition, was taken in st.eaotypy and afterwards reduced to typewriting under my direction, and that the deposition of the deponent was presented to Counsel for the deponent for hie signature; that plaintiff was present and represented by bis attorns?s, Mr. Toward S, WATER PCB-SD0000035305 160 Yeung, Jr., and Hr* Joseph Stevenson; that defendant: Monsanto Company was represented by its attorneys, Mr. Keith C. Hee#e Mr. John .0, Cochran and Mr* James Gale; and that defendant Bloomfield Silo Company was represented by Its attorney, Mr David W Gray. I further testify that X am a disinterested person in this cause of action; that 1 era not a relative or attorney of any of the parties, or otherwise interested in the event of this action, and am not in the employ of the attorneys for either the plaintiff or defendants. T'l fJT'TM^CC TJ'i'Cf'; 1?/>P Xau *4 ok ,if. tV.t.* li.-v.MVi. have hereunto set my hand and affixed my notarial seal thi 21s?: day of August, 1381. My Commission Expires: October 0, 1984 notary Pub11 WATER PCB-SD0000035306