Document 3NMa1ddaxZZE8nYM77m2aDy8a

file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 1 1 32685AJB 2 IN THE DISTRICT COURT FOR JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS 3 172nd JUDICIAL DISTRICT 4 Cause No. E-170.351 5 6 _______________________________________________ 7 YOLANDA McCARTY ROBERTS, et al., 8 Plaintiffs, 9 vs. 10 SHELL OIL COMPANY, et al., 11 Defendant. 12 ________________________________________________ 13 14 VIDEOTAPE DEPOSITION OF RICHARD D. IRONS, Ph.D. 15 August 29, 2006 16 17 18 Pursuant to Notice taken on behalf of the 19 Plaintiffs at 2115 13th Street, Boulder, file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (1 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt Colorado 80301, at 10:48 a.m., before Joanne 20 Blair, Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public within Colorado. 21 22 23 24 25 file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (2 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 DARREN L. BROWN and RODNEY BARNWELL, Attorneys at Law, from the Provost Umphrey Law 3 Firm LLC, 490 Park Street, Beaumont, Texas 77704, appearing on behalf of the Plaintiff. 4 ROBERT SCOTT, Attorney at Law, from 5 the Law Firm of Abrams Scott & Bickley, L.L.P., 700 Louisiana, Suite 4000, Houston, Texas 6 77002-2727, appearing on behalf of the Defendant Univar U.S.A, Inc. 7 Also Present: Tom Koetting, 8 videographer 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (3 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 21 22 23 24 25 file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (4 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 3 1 INDEX 2 EXAMINATION: PAGE 3 By Mr. Brown 6, 298 4 By Mr. Scott 260, 329 5 6 7 8 INITIAL REFERENCE 9 DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: 10 1 Dr. Iron's notebook for the case 18 11 2 Dr. Irons' CV 18 12 3 Papers from Shanghai 18 13 4 Subpoena 48 14 5 Excerpt from Casarett and Doull's Toxicology 109 15 6 Clinic notes 116 16 7 "Benzene and Leukemia: Cell Types, 17 Latency, and Amount of Exposure Associated with Leukemia," by 18 Infante 241 19 8 "Proposed Studies on the Risk of file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (5 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt Benzene-Induced Diseases in China" 20 by Parker 317 21 (Enclosed.) 22 23 24 25 file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (6 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 4 1 WHEREUPON, the following proceedings 2 were taken pursuant to the Texas Rules of Civil 3 Procedure: 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now on the 5 record. Today's date is August 29, 2006, and 6 the time is approximately 10:48 a.m. The 7 location is the Hotel Boulderado, Boulder, 8 Colorado. This is the video-captured deposition 9 of Dr. Richard Irons in the matter of Roberts, 10 et al., versus Shell Oil, et al., Case 11 No. E-170.351 filed in District Court, Jefferson 12 County, Texas. The court reporter is Joanne 13 Blair of Esquire Deposition Services. My name 14 is Tom Koetting, legal videographer, and this 15 deposition was requested by Darren Brown. 16 Counsel, would you please identify yourselves 17 for the record. 18 MR. BROWN: I'm Darren Brown for the 19 plaintiff. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (7 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 MR. BARNWELL: Rodney Barnwell for 21 the plaintiff. 22 MR. SCOTT: Robert Scott for the 23 Defendant Univar USA, Inc. 24 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Joanne, would you 25 please swear him in. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (8 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 5 1 RICHARD D. IRONS, Ph.D., 2 having been duly sworn to state the whole truth, 3 testified as follows: 4 MR. BROWN: Bob, before we get 5 going, as far as agreements, pursuant to Texas 6 Rules of Civil Procedure? 7 MR. SCOTT: Yes. 8 MR. BROWN: Signature, what do you 9 want to do? 10 MR. SCOTT: I assume you want to 11 sign -- read and sign it? 12 THE DEPONENT: Yes. 13 MR. BROWN: Can I have an agreement 14 if it's not back within the required time by the 15 rules, we can use an unsigned copy? 16 MR. SCOTT: Yes. I think the rules 17 say 30 days, but whatever they say, that's fine. 18 MR. BROWN: Also, it's my 19 understanding -- file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (9 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 MR. SCOTT: Darren, let me just say, 21 there may be -- I don't know what Dr. Irons' 22 current travel schedule is, but he is out of the 23 country a fair bit. So there may be some issue 24 there. It may be delayed and mailed to China, 25 but that would be the only thing I can imagine. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (10 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 6 1 This shouldn't take any great time to get it 2 there. 3 MR. BROWN: My only concern, we're 4 No. 6 on the docket, I just found out today. So 5 if we ended up having to go, we would like to be 6 able to use what we get here today. 7 MR. SCOTT: Sure. 8 MR. BROWN: In addition, it's my 9 understanding that you thought you had about 20 10 minutes of direct? 11 MR. SCOTT: Correct. 12 MR. BROWN: Okay. 13 EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. BROWN: 15 Q. Good morning, Dr. Irons. 16 A. Good morning. 17 Q. Would you please state your full 18 name. 19 A. Richard D. Irons. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (11 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. What's your home address, sir. 21 A. 330 16th Street, Boulder, Colorado, 22 in the United States. 23 Q. Where is a daytime phone where you 24 can be reached? 25 A. (303) 315-7170. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (12 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 7 1 Q. Where does that ring? 2 A. University of Colorado Health 3 Sciences Center. 4 Q. Is that your employer? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. You have been retained by Mr. Bob 7 Scott as an attorney for the defendant Univar, 8 formerly known as Van Waters & Rogers; is that 9 correct? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. When were you first retained by him 12 to act as an expert in this case? 13 A. I believe it was February or March 14 of this year. 15 Q. In what areas -- strike that. What 16 was your assignment in the case that you got 17 from Mr. Scott? 18 A. To evaluate the records and 19 testimony in this case and to ascertain the file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (13 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 likelihood as to whether or not Mr. McCarty's 21 disease could have been caused or contributed to 22 by exposure to benzene. 23 Q. Were you asked to do anything else? 24 A. I don't believe so. 25 Q. And in what areas of science or file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (14 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 8 1 medicine do you intend to act as an expert in 2 this case? 3 A. Toxicology and the associated fields 4 in toxicology, epidemiology, industrial hygiene, 5 and pathology. 6 Q. You are not an epidemiologist, are 7 you, sir? 8 A. No, sir, I'm not. 9 Q. You are not an industrial hygienist, 10 are you, sir? 11 A. No. 12 Q. And you are not a medical doctor, 13 are you? 14 A. No, I'm not. 15 Q. My name is Darren Brown. We met 16 briefly before this deposition, correct? 17 A. I don't recall. 18 Q. You don't recall meeting me just 19 now? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (15 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. Oh, just now. I thought you meant 21 some other time. 22 Q. I'm sorry. Let's go back. 23 MR. SCOTT: He thought you meant on 24 a prior occasion. Are you taking any 25 medications today that we should be aware of? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (16 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 9 1 MR. BROWN: Feeling better now. 2 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) You and I met for the 3 first time briefly before this deposition this 4 morning? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. We've never met before, to my 7 knowledge. Have we met before? 8 A. Not to my knowledge. 9 Q. I represent the family of Oliver 10 McCarty, and you realize that he is the man who 11 passed away from acute myelogenous leukemia and 12 has brought a lawsuit against Van Waters & 13 Rogers and Univar, who are represented by 14 Mr. Scott and by whom you are testifying on 15 behalf as an expert? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You've given many depositions in the 18 past, correct? 19 A. Several, yes. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (17 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. During the last -- excuse me -21 during the last year have you testified in any 22 case involving benzene or diseases related to 23 alleged benzene exposure? 24 A. No. 25 Q. How about since you last testified file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (18 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 10 1 for Mr. Dillard in the Cowey case back in 2 November of 2003, have you given a deposition in 3 a benzene-related case since then? 4 A. I believe so. 5 Q. Do you know the name of that? 6 A. As I sit here, I can't recall. It 7 would have been probably last year. 8 Q. Who was the attorney who hired you? 9 A. I believe the last time I gave a 10 deposition was for Mr. Lou Woolf, but I'm not 11 certain. It's been a while. 12 Q. Was that deposition in Tennessee or 13 here in Colorado? 14 A. It wouldn't have been in Tennessee. 15 I believe it was here. 16 Q. All right. Do you keep copies of 17 your prior depositions? 18 A. No. 19 Q. And you've been acting as a file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (19 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 consultant for defendant oil companies and 21 chemical companies in litigation for about 16 22 years, as I understand; is that correct? 23 A. I've been involved in expert 24 consultation and testimony for -- 16 years? 25 Yes, that's probably right. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (20 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 11 1 Q. During the entire course of that 16 2 years, sir, have you ever testified that a 3 plaintiff's alleged disease was caused by 4 exposure to benzene? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Can you give us a ballpark estimate 7 of the number of times you've testified in cases 8 where benzene exposure was alleged to cause a 9 disease in which you had testified that it did 10 not cause that disease? 11 A. Maybe 40. I'm not certain of that 12 number. 13 Q. That's as close as you can get it as 14 you sit here; is that right? 15 A. Yeah, either less or more. 16 Q. Having given numerous depositions 17 before, you realize what a deposition is, 18 correct? 19 A. Yes. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (21 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. You realize that we are videotaping 21 today's deposition, and your deposition can be 22 played before the judge and jury in the trial of 23 this case just as though you were sitting in 24 front of the judge and jury testifying yourself, 25 correct? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (22 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 12 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. You realize that you are under oath 3 to tell the truth today? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. During the deposition if I ask you a 6 question that you don't understand, would you 7 stop me and tell me that you don't understand 8 what I've asked you? 9 A. I will. 10 Q. If you answer my question, may I and 11 the jury assume that you've understood what I've 12 asked you? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. If you need to take a break for any 15 reason, just let us know we'll be happy to 16 accommodate you, right? Is that agreeable? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What documents did you review to 19 refresh your recollection in preparation for file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (23 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 your testimony here today, sir? 21 A. The medical records and testimony 22 that I was provided by Mr. Scott in this case, 23 some publications that I have brought with me, 24 and other documents that I've also brought with 25 me. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (24 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 13 1 Q. The medical records that you have 2 reviewed, what are those? 3 A. They are the medical records of 4 Mr. McCarty. 5 Q. And you have received those from 6 Mr. Scott; is that correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. All right. The testimony that 9 Mr. Scott provided you with, whose testimony 10 have you seen and been provided with by 11 Mr. Scott? 12 A. Frank Parker; Joseph Julius Beverly, 13 also his affidavit; as well as the documents 14 that I reviewed that include transcripts that 15 are in Dr. Parker's exhibits. 16 Q. All right. Other than the testimony 17 of Frank Parker and the testimony in deposition 18 and by affidavit of Mr. Beverly, and exhibits to 19 Mr. Parker's deposition, have you reviewed any file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (25 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 other testimony or affidavits? 21 A. Just those, as I mentioned, those 22 that are in Frank Parker's exhibits. There's 23 several depositions and transcripts in that. 24 Q. Can you tell me the ones that, as 25 you sit here today, that you can recall that file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (26 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 14 1 were significant by name of the person who was 2 doing the testifying? 3 A. No. 4 Q. With regard to any of the 5 depositions that you have looked at, do you feel 6 like any of those were significant to your 7 opinions in this case? 8 A. With respect to relying on them for 9 my opinions, no, sir. 10 Q. With respect to relying upon them 11 for any matters, which depositions or testimony 12 do you feel were significant in your 13 consultation as an expert in this case? 14 A. As I mentioned, I reviewed 15 Dr. Parker's deposition and Mr. Beverly's. 16 Q. Okay. Now, you also said that you 17 have reviewed some publications; is that 18 correct? 19 A. Yes. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (27 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. Do you have those publications with 21 you here today? 22 A. I brought just a few of them as 23 examples. I didn't bring everything that I've 24 reviewed in terms of the medical epidemiologic 25 literature pertaining to benzene or acute file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (28 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 15 1 myelogenous leukemia. 2 Q. Have you brought with you the 3 articles that you felt were significant to the 4 formulation of your opinions in this case? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And then you said you brought -- you 7 had reviewed some other documents in preparation 8 for your testimony. What category or what 9 documents were those? 10 A. The medical records of Mr. McCarty, 11 which I have provided both -- I have brought 12 everything that I reviewed. I've also selected 13 some of those that I think are pertinent to my 14 opinions in this case, specifically. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. I brought a few documents that I 17 think are illustrative of the state-of-the-art 18 with respect to photo thresholds related to 19 benzene. I also brought my notes, which largely file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (29 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 pertain to a telephone conversation I had with 21 Mark Plisker concerning an exposure assessment 22 relating to Mr. McCarty's alleged exposure. 23 Q. Do you have copies of what you have 24 there in front of you in your notebook? Is that 25 the only copy that you have? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (30 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 16 1 A. That's the only copy. 2 Q. What do you call that notebook 3 that's there in front of you? Is that your file 4 for the case? 5 A. I guess you could call it that. 6 Q. Well, what would you call it so when 7 I refer to it we are referring to the same 8 thing? 9 A. My notebook. 10 Q. Notebook on the case? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. All right. I notice in some of 13 the -- behind some of the dividers in your 14 notebook on the case, you selected certain 15 medical records, correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. We've got a box of medical records 18 and a box or actually three boxes of 19 documents -- five boxes of documents, it looks file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (31 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 like here. Have you selected the documents that 21 you felt were pertinent to your opinions in this 22 case and put them in your notebook on the case? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. All right. And then you also have a 25 blue folder here in front of you. What is that? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (32 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 17 1 A. These are items that I've produced 2 for this deposition which includes my -- a 3 current copy of my curriculum vitae, 4 publications relating to the study that I direct 5 in Shanghai, and some descriptions of my 6 laboratory in Shanghai that I had. 7 Q. Okay. Why don't we do this. Would 8 you mind if we mark your case notebook and the 9 documents that you have in the blue folder, 10 along with your blue folder, as exhibits to your 11 deposition today? 12 A. Not at all. 13 Q. Let's have the court reporter mark 14 his file notebook as Exhibit 1. 15 MR. SCOTT: Do you want to go off 16 the video and get this organized? I don't know 17 how many separate exhibits you plan to mark. 18 MR. BROWN: I don't either. 19 MR. SCOTT: However you want to file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (33 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 handle it. 21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We could go off 22 if you like. 23 MR. BROWN: Let's go off for a 24 second. 25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (34 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 18 1 approximately 11:04 a.m. and we are now off the 2 record. 3 (Irons Deposition Exhibits 1, 2, and 4 3 were marked.) 5 (Discussion off the record.) 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 7 approximately 11:07 a.m., and we are back on the 8 record. 9 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Dr. Irons, we've 10 marked your black notebook as Exhibit 1. We put 11 the exhibit sticker on the first page. That 12 black notebook contains medical records from 13 Texas Oncology, M.D. Anderson. It looks like BM 14 post chemo; is that correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What is that? 17 A. That's bone marrow -- that's 18 pathology records relating to evaluation of 19 Mr. McCarty's bone marrow post chemotherapy. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (35 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. This is death summary, and then this 21 says express. What is that? 22 A. Exposure. 23 Q. Exposure. And then you have 24 dividers numbered 1 through 14 with pages behind 25 each divider; is that correct? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (36 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 19 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And you've got the deposition notice 3 with the subpoena duces tecum over in the pocket 4 part, and what is this back here in the back 5 pocket part? 6 A. I think those are certification of 7 the records. They are not of much importance to 8 me. Yeah, these are records -- documentation of 9 the medical records. 10 Q. Would you find for me in Exhibit 1 11 the notes that you referred to from Mark 12 Plisker? 13 A. Yes. 14 MR. SCOTT: I think it may be 15 Plisko. P-l-i-s-k-o, I believe it is. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) And that's behind the 18 exposure tab; is that correct? 19 A. Yes. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (37 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. And that's the only document that 21 you have behind the exposure tab in your case 22 notebook, correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. You mentioned earlier that you 25 thought his name was Mark Plisker. It looks file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (38 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 1 like you have written down Mark Plisko? 2 A. Plisko. 3 Q. Had you ever met Mark Plisko before? 4 A. No. 5 Q. How did you get in touch with him so 6 that you could make notes? 7 A. Mr. Scott suggested that I call him 8 to discuss the nature of his assessment of the 9 quantitative exposure that Mr. McCarty may have 10 incurred as an employee of Univar. 11 Q. Did Mr. Scott ask you to talk to 12 anybody else besides Mr. Mark Plisko about 13 potential exposures of Mr. McCarty? 14 A. No. 15 Q. When did you make these notes? 16 A. Yesterday or the day before. 17 Q. Well, do you recall? 18 A. It was either yesterday or the day 19 before. I can't think. I think it was file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (39 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 yesterday morning, but I could be mistaken. 21 Q. Your best estimate is you made those 22 notes yesterday, August 28th, in the morning? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Did you call Mr. Plisko or did he 25 call you? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (40 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 21 1 A. I called him. 2 Q. Where did you call him from? 3 A. From my office. 4 Q. Is that the same number you gave me 5 earlier? 6 A. Generally, yes, same switchboard. 7 Q. How long did you and Mr. Plisko 8 talk? 9 A. Roughly, I would say half an hour. 10 Q. Who was present when you were 11 talking with Mr. Plisko? 12 A. No one. Just of the two of us. 13 Q. You were the only one on your 14 call -15 A. Yes. 16 Q. -- on your end? And as you 17 understood it, he was the only one in his end? 18 A. To my knowledge. 19 Q. Where was he when you were speaking file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (41 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 to him? 21 A. My assumption is he was at 22 Environmental Profiles. 23 Q. Do you know where that is? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Do you know what area code that you file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (42 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 22 1 dialed? 2 A. I think it's East Coast. 3 Q. Do you know what city? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Had you ever heard of Mark Plisko 6 before? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Do you think that based on your 309 minute conversation you were able to develop an 10 idea about his reputation and ability to assess 11 worker exposures to chemicals? 12 A. It's my understanding that he is 13 associated with John Spencer, and I'm familiar 14 with Mr. Spencer's credentials. To elaborate, I 15 had asked Mr. Scott if he had a -- obtained an 16 estimate of quantitative exposure in this case, 17 and he referred me to Mr. Plisko. 18 Q. Just for the record, I need to 19 object to responsiveness. My question was with file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (43 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 regard to your half-hour conversation of Mark 21 Plisko, do you think that you had a sufficient 22 ability to evaluate his qualifications and his 23 reputation to be assessing worker exposures? 24 A. I believe I had sufficient 25 opportunity to evaluate his expertise with file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (44 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 23 1 respect to this particular analysis, and I was 2 satisfied with that. 3 Q. What is his expertise? 4 A. His expertise in terms of his 5 credentials, I do not know. 6 Q. You don't even know if he is an 7 industrial hygienist, correct? 8 A. That, I don't know. 9 Q. Do you typically rely upon people 10 who give you industrial hygiene information when 11 you don't even know if they are an industrial 12 hygienist? 13 A. I rely on quantitative exposure 14 assessments that are provided to me. I don't 15 make quantitative assessments myself. I prefer 16 to rely on exposure assessments by others, 17 either engineers or industrial hygienists. 18 Q. So we are clear on that, you have 19 not made independently on your own any file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (45 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 quantitative exposure assessment on Mr. McCarty, 21 correct? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Do you feel like the data that you 24 have, this one page note, and your half-hour 25 conversation, provides you with sufficient file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (46 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 24 1 information to enable you as a scientist and 2 health professional to accurately assess 3 Mr. McCarty's exposure to benzene in his work at 4 Van Waters & Rogers? 5 A. I feel like this provides me with an 6 adequate basis to assess his exposure as it's 7 outlined in the testimony that I have reviewed. 8 Q. So you feel like you have sufficient 9 information from what Mr. Plisko has told you 10 about Mr. McCarty's exposure; is that correct? 11 A. As I said, based upon the limited 12 testimony that I have reviewed, I believe that 13 this provides an adequate assessment of the 14 conditions that are described in that testimony. 15 Q. All right. Without the testimony 16 and just relying upon Mr. Plisko's notes that 17 you took in that half-hour conversation 18 yesterday, do you think Mr. Plisko's 19 conversation with you and the notes you took file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (47 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 from that were sufficient in and of themselves 21 to allow you to make a quantitative assessment 22 of Mr. McCarty's exposure to benzene? 23 MR. SCOTT: Object to form. 24 A. Not without some basis in testimony 25 or description to outline the conditions under file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (48 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 25 1 which the assumptions are made for the 2 quantitative assessment. Quantitative 3 assessment is only as good as the description of 4 the conditions that have been provided either in 5 written -- written form or testimony. 6 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Do you know the 7 information, the data and the facts, that 8 Mr. Plisko relied upon to provide you with the 9 notes that you have here in your Exhibit 1? 10 A. I know the assumptions that he 11 outlined to me in describing his assessment, and 12 I provided those summarized in my notes. 13 Q. Let me object to responsiveness. My 14 question is, do you know what information he 15 had, the data that he had, that he relied upon 16 to give you the information that you wrote in 17 your notes? 18 MR. SCOTT: Object to form. 19 A. As I said, the assessment that he file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (49 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 provided me is based on certain assumptions. 21 Those assumptions are outlined in my notes. 22 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) What I'm asking you 23 is, do you know what all assumptions that he 24 had? 25 MR. SCOTT: Object to form. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (50 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 26 1 A. I believe these are the assumptions 2 that he had. These are certainly the 3 assumptions that I had in evaluating his 4 analysis and relying upon it. 5 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Do you know if he had 6 anything other than the testimony of 7 Mr. Beverly, affidavit testimony of Mr. Beverly, 8 and/or the affidavit testimony of Mr. McCarty 9 regarding their exposures? 10 MR. SCOTT: Object to form. 11 A. He certainly had ACGIH modeling data 12 and publications, which were the basis for the 13 model that he used. With respect to exposure, I 14 don't know anything more than what I've told 15 you. 16 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Again, I need to 17 object to responsiveness. Forgive me. You can 18 ignore them. Do you know if he had 19 Mr. Beverly's affidavit, for instance? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (51 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. I believe he did, yes. 21 Q. I'm asking, do you know that for 22 sure? 23 A. From the conversation that we had, I 24 believe that Mr. Beverly's testimony is one of 25 the bases for the assumptions in this report. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (52 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 27 1 Q. All right. And was that -- again, 2 let me object to responsiveness. Do you know if 3 he had Mr. Beverly's affidavit, as opposed to 4 his deposition testimony? 5 A. I can't speak to that specifically. 6 Q. Do you know if he had Mr. McCarty's 7 affidavit, sworn affidavit? 8 A. I can't speak to that. I don't know 9 that. 10 Q. Do you know what particular 11 documents he had at all? Did he tell you these 12 are the documents I'm relying upon? 13 A. We discussed in general 14 Mr. Beverly's testimony. 15 Q. So I guess from that you assume that 16 he had a deposition testimony of Mr. Beverly? 17 A. Either that or the affidavit. I 18 can't -- as I sit here, I can't be certain. 19 Q. All right. Anything other than file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (53 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 that, the testimony of Mr. Beverly? 21 A. Not that I know of. I can't speak 22 to that. 23 Q. Next we have marked your -- what you 24 identified as your CV, your current CV, as 25 Exhibit 2; is that correct? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (54 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 28 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Is that document current and up to 3 date? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. As of when? 6 A. As of sometime this month. 7 Q. All right. Then for Exhibit 3, we 8 put into the blue folder -- these are documents 9 that we've marked as a group of studies which we 10 have referred to as documents and studies 11 related to your Shanghai studies, correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. You don't mind if we take these or 14 have the court reporter make copies of all 15 Exhibits 1, 2 and 3; is that correct? 16 A. No. 17 Q. You mentioned that you were familiar 18 with John Spencer's reputation and credentials, 19 correct? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (55 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Have you in the past received 22 quantitative exposure estimates from John 23 Spencer? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Have you always found those to be file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (56 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 29 1 reliable? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Have you always found those to be 4 reliable and sufficient -- and with sufficient 5 enough data so that you could make an exposure 6 assessment yourself? 7 A. I don't know whether I can -- I 8 don't know quite how to answer that question. 9 MR. SCOTT: I object to form of the 10 question. 11 A. An exposure assessment is always 12 based upon information which may be anecdotal, 13 it may be quantitative, it may be based on 14 modeling, and it may be based on actual 15 measurements. There may be more modeling in one 16 case than another. I've always found that John 17 Spencer's analyses are reliable in that they 18 state the assumptions and they provide 19 justification for the approach that was taken. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (57 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 I can't say that every time I've evaluated an 21 exposure assessment, whether it's from John 22 Spencer or anyone else, that there's been a 23 great deal of data sufficient to do a 24 quantitative assessment. 25 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) That's what I'm file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (58 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 30 1 getting at. There have been times when John 2 Spencer has provided you with quantitative 3 exposure assessments of individuals involved in 4 lawsuits where you were representing -- or you 5 were testifying on behalf of defendants that you 6 could not in good conscience rely upon what he 7 did, correct? 8 A. No, I can't say that. I think that, 9 again, the assumptions that go into an exposure 10 assessment may be limited and the assumptions 11 may limit the value of an exposure assessment. 12 That does not necessarily reflect poorly on the 13 assessor or the methodology. 14 Q. Well, my question is, there have 15 been times, sir, that John Spencer has given you 16 a quantitative exposure assessment which you did 17 not rely upon, correct? 18 A. I think that's highly likely. 19 Q. In fact, you did it when you file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (59 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 testified in the James Cowey case back in 21 November of 2003; do you recall that? 22 A. No, I don't. 23 Q. All right. Let me show you the 24 testimony I'm referring to. Page 79 in the 25 Cowey deposition. Mr. Lubel asked you, "But as file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (60 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 31 1 you sit here today as an expert witness for 2 United States Steel Corporation, you can't tell 3 us under oath whether or not the product that 4 Mr. Spencer tested was in fact the product that 5 had same or substantially similar ingredients to 6 that which Mr. Cowey used; is that correct?" 7 And you said, "I cannot say that, no." 8 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 9 the question. 10 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Did I read that 11 correctly? 12 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 13 the question. 14 A. You read that correctly, but that 15 does not speak to the adequacy or the quality of 16 Mr. Spencer's assessment. 17 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Well, you recall now, 18 after having read this, that Mr. Spencer did 19 provide an assessment to you in that case, file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (61 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 correct? 21 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 22 question. 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) All right. Over here 25 he asked you, "Did you earlier today in your file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (62 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 32 1 testimony make a statement that you didn't feel 2 as though you were in a position to make a 3 meaningful evaluation of Mr. Cowey's benzene 4 exposure based upon the information that had 5 been provided to you?" 6 Your answer was, "That's correct." 7 The next question is, "Do you stick 8 by the statement that I'm now asking you in the 9 question?" 10 You said, "Yes, that's correct." 11 Did I read that correctly? 12 A. Yes, you did. 13 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 14 the question. 15 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) In that case, even 16 though Mr. Spencer had provided you with 17 exposure assessment, you did not feel like you 18 had sufficient information to use one yourself. 19 You used what he provided, correct? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (63 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. Based upon that testimony, I believe 21 that that's a fair description of the testimony. 22 By the same token, as I said before, the nature 23 of the data on which an exposure assessment is 24 based is critical, and in that particular case 25 apparently I wasn't prepared to reach a file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (64 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 33 1 conclusion as to what exposure was. 2 Q. All right. But in this case based 3 on a 30-minute conversation with his assistant, 4 you feel like you are; is that correct? 5 A. I am prepared to render an opinion 6 with respect to the likelihood or probability 7 that Mr. McCarty's disease was associated with 8 his exposure as outlined in the testimony I 9 reviewed and based upon the quantitative 10 assessment that I have. That's -- that is my 11 testimony. 12 Q. Let me ask it this way: Could you 13 render an opinion based on quantitative exposure 14 evidence and information without the 30-minute 15 conversation that you had with Mark Plisko 16 yesterday? 17 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 18 question. 19 A. Based on the information and the file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (65 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 material that I've been provided, no. 21 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) So you have to rely 22 upon Mr. Plisko's information in your 30-minute 23 conversation yesterday to formulate your 24 opinions about what Mr. Beverly's exposure would 25 have been, correct? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (66 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 34 1 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 2 the question. 3 A. As we sit here today, yes. 4 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) And I believe I may 5 have misspoke and said Mr. Beverly's exposure 6 would have been. Let me reask the question. 7 You have to rely upon Mr. Plisko's 30-minute 8 conversation with you to determine and assess 9 what Mr. McCarty's exposure would have been; is 10 that correct? 11 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 12 question. 13 A. Based upon the material I've 14 reviewed in this case to date, that is correct. 15 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Do you expect to be 16 receiving any further or additional materials in 17 the case? 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. You have -- you don't have those file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (67 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 expectations as you sit here; is that correct? 21 A. No. 22 Q. I'm correct about that? 23 A. As we sit here, no. 24 Q. No, you do not have those 25 expectations? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (68 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 35 1 A. No. 2 Q. Okay. Have you prepared a written 3 report in this case? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Not even a draft? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Have you been asked to? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Do you typically prepare a written 10 report in a case like this? 11 A. If I'm asked. If not, no. 12 Q. Have you reviewed any written 13 reports or opinions or documents from any of the 14 other defendants who have been hired by 15 Mr. Scott -- strike that. Have you reviewed any 16 written reports or opinions or other documents 17 from any of the other experts that have been 18 hired by Mr. Scott in this case to testify on 19 behalf of the defendant? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (69 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. No. 21 Q. All right. You haven't reviewed 22 anything in writing from Mr. Spencer, correct? 23 A. No. 24 Q. I'm correct about that? 25 A. Yes, you are correct. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (70 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 36 1 Q. You haven't reviewed anything in 2 writing from Dennis Paustenbach; is that 3 correct? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. You haven't reviewed anything in 6 writing from Mr. Raabe; is that correct? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. You haven't reviewed anything in 9 writing from Mr. Nadelson; is that correct? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. Have you spoken to Mr. Spencer about 12 this case at all? 13 A. No, I have not. 14 Q. Have you spoken to Mr. -- or 15 Dr. Paustenbach about this case at all? 16 A. No, I have not. 17 Q. How about Mr. Raabe? 18 A. No, I have not. 19 MR. SCOTT: It's Dr. Raabe. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (71 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Have you spoken to 21 Dr. Raabe about this case at all? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Have you spoken to Dr. Nadelson 24 about this case at all? 25 A. No, I have not. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (72 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 37 1 Q. Would it be fair to say the only 2 person that you have spoken to other than 3 Mr. Scott about the facts of this case would be 4 Mark Plisko; is that correct? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. You've only had the one conversation 7 with him yesterday morning? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Is it your understanding that Mark 10 Plisko or Mr. Spencer has done any type of model 11 of what Mr. McCarty's exposure would have been 12 while he worked at Van Waters & Rogers? 13 A. That's basically what I provided in 14 my notes. 15 Q. All right. So am I correct to infer 16 that you have the understanding that they have 17 prepared a model of what Mr. McCarty's exposure 18 would have been? 19 A. Yes. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (73 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. Do you know what type of model that 21 they prepared? 22 A. Yes. It's an inverted cone model 23 predicated on a model for drum loading that is 24 published by the American College of Government 25 and Industrial Hygienists. I have a reference file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (74 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 38 1 to it in my notes. 2 Q. Prior to this case, had you ever 3 seen any model regarding estimated exposure for 4 drum-filling operations? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Do you have any idea about the facts 7 or criteria by which the model for the 8 drum-filling operations is controlled or 9 governed? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. All right. And where do they come 12 from? 13 A. They come from my discussions with 14 Mr. Plisko and the notes that I took. 15 Q. All right. What is your 16 understanding of the parameters of the 17 drum-filling operations that were involved in 18 the model that Mr. Plisko did? 19 A. Well, as he described them to me, file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (75 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 first of all, they were based upon the frequency 21 and rate of drum-filling that Mr. McCarty may 22 have been involved in, was described very 23 briefly in Mr. Beverly's testimony. 24 Q. All right. 25 A. And that was the basis for -- the file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (76 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 39 1 initial basis for the calculations that were 2 performed. 3 Q. All right. What were the parameters 4 in terms of the duration of the drum-filling 5 activities in the model that you described? 6 A. The duration of the activities -7 you mean as related to the individual exposures? 8 Q. No, sir. How long did the model, as 9 you understood from Mr. Plisko, determine or use 10 as the time that Mr. Oliver McCarty would have 11 been doing the drumming activity on the days 12 that he would be filling up the 55-gallon drums 13 with benzene? 14 A. Specifically 240 minutes, 40 drums. 15 It's basically a four-hour continuous-exposure 16 assumption. 17 Q. All right. Did you see in the 18 testimony that they may have drummed for as long 19 as five hours each day? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (77 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. There were -- as I recall, the range 21 was described was either three to five or four 22 to five. This particular model assumes a four23 hour exposure. 24 Q. All right. Do you have any 25 understanding why they chose four hours instead file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (78 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 40 1 of five? 2 A. This particular -- this particular 3 model assumes no breaks, constant activity over 4 a four-hour period. That seemed to me 5 reasonable based upon my review of testimony. 6 Other than that, I can't tell you precisely why 7 any particular value was chosen other than 8 trying to model the testimony that was provided. 9 Q. Well, let me object to 10 responsiveness. I take you don't know why 11 Plisko chose five -- or four hours rather than 12 five hours, correct? 13 A. That's correct. I'm relying on the 14 exposure assessment that was provided by 15 Environmental Profiles and that Mr. Plisko 16 described to me, and that's the basis for my 17 opinion with respect to quantitative exposure. 18 Q. All right. Let me object to 19 responsiveness for anything after "that's file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (79 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 correct." The exposure for four hours would 21 result in a lower part per million than exposure 22 for five hours at the same intensity, correct? 23 A. It would. It would result in a 24 relatively minor difference. 25 Q. You say minor. About 20 percent file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (80 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 41 1 difference in the amount of time, correct -2 A. 20 percent -3 Q. -- or more? 4 A. Yes, I would consider that minor. 5 Q. All right. Do you know anything 6 about the materials that were used in terms of 7 the model? 8 A. The model assumes exposure to neat 9 benzene. 10 Q. Pure benzene? 11 A. Pure benzene. 12 Q. Do you know anything about the 13 regularity or the frequency that the drumming 14 activity model assumes? 15 A. Constant. Over a four-hour period 16 constant. 17 Q. I'm not talking about over the time 18 from beginning of start-up to the first drum to 19 the last drum. I'm talking about from the time file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (81 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 he drums on one day until the next batch of 21 benzene comes in and they drum a different day? 22 MR. SCOTT: Object to form. 23 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) What does the model 24 assume on that, as you understand it? 25 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (82 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 42 1 question. 2 A. The model assumes -- for overall 3 cumulative exposure the model assumes a 4 one-time, one-day-a-month frequency. 5 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) All right. And you 6 were familiar with the testimony by Mr. Beverly 7 that they would have done that as many as three 8 times per month, correct? 9 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 10 question. 11 A. As I -- to the best of my 12 recollection, Mr. Beverly stated a range. One 13 time he said one; one time he said maybe three. 14 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Well, let me object 15 to responsiveness. Do you know Mr. Beverly has 16 testified that they would have been drumming 17 benzene, pure benzene, from a truck in 55-gallon 18 drums for as many as -- for as often as three 19 times per month, correct? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (83 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 21 question. 22 A. I believe I said that, yes. 23 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) And so do you have an 24 understanding of why it is that Mr. Plisko chose 25 a one-time-a-month number as opposed to a file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (84 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 43 1 three-times-a-month number? 2 A. The one-time-a-month assumption does 3 not change the nature of the quantitative 4 estimate and can be adjusted up or down 5 depending upon what assumptions you wish to 6 make. 7 Q. Let me object to responsiveness. My 8 question is, do you know why he chose only once 9 per month as opposed to three times per month? 10 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 11 question. 12 A. No. 13 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) In your conversation 14 yesterday did you ask Mr. Plisko to fax you any 15 of the information that he was telling you or 16 informing you of over the telephone? 17 A. No. 18 Q. With regard to the model from 19 drum-loading activities published by the file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (85 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 American Conference of Governmental Industrial 21 Hygienists that you say you have, where did you 22 acquire that? 23 A. I did not say I had that. 24 Q. I'm sorry. 25 A. I said that was the basis for this file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (86 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 44 1 particular assessment as it was related to me by 2 Mr. Plisko. 3 Q. Okay. You were told that he used an 4 ACGIH drum-modeling model? 5 A. I asked him to provide me for the 6 basis, the publication that formed the basis for 7 the mathematical modeling that he used, and he 8 told me that this is the model that he used. 9 Q. And I assume that your notes there 10 that are contained in Exhibit 1 after the 11 exposure information tab are complete; is that 12 correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. There is nothing else that you all 15 of talked about in your conversation relating to 16 Mr. McCarty's exposure; is that correct? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. And there is nothing else that you 19 need from Mr. Plisko or Mr. Spencer in order to file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (87 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 formulate your opinions in this case about 21 Mr. McCarty's exposure; is that correct? 22 A. There is nothing else I need to 23 render an opinion based upon this particular 24 exposure assessment. 25 Q. All right. Well, I mean, and that's file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (88 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 45 1 what you've done, correct? 2 A. That's what I've done. 3 Q. What I'm asking you is, with regard 4 to the exposure assessment that you have -- that 5 you have now come to this deposition and intend 6 to give opinions about, do you need anything 7 else from Mr. Plisko or Mr. Spencer? 8 A. I think that I should restate that I 9 am not offering an exposure assessment. I am 10 relying upon the exposure assessment that was 11 provided to me. And based upon the information 12 that I have from that telephone conversation and 13 my notes, I'm prepared to render an opinion 14 based on that exposure assessment. 15 Q. Fair enough. What I'm saying is, do 16 you have all the information that you need and 17 all that information, is that contained in your 18 notes in your notebook? 19 A. Yes. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (89 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. You indicated that you reviewed the 21 medical records of Mr. McCarty, and I would 22 assume that you would have reviewed his records 23 from M.D. Anderson; is that correct? 24 A. M.D. Anderson and prior to that as 25 well, I believe. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (90 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 46 1 Q. The St. Elizabeth Hospital records 2 and Dr. Schachner, Texas Oncology? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. I believe you have got that up in 5 the forward part of your notebook under Texas 6 oncology? 7 A. Um-hum. 8 Q. Any other medical records that you 9 reviewed on Mr. McCarty? 10 A. I've reviewed all the records that 11 were provided to me. These are the ones that 12 were salient with respect to my opinions in this 13 case. He -- there are a lot of medical records. 14 Q. Have you reviewed Mr. McCarty's 15 sworn affidavit? 16 A. I don't recall. Actually, I don't 17 believe so. 18 Q. If he had given an affidavit -19 A. No, I have -- I do and I have, yes. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (91 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 I just don't recall. 21 Q. What do you recall from his 22 affidavit, as you sit here, in terms of being 23 significant to your opinions? 24 A. My opinions with respect to 25 exposure, I've relied upon Mr. Beverly. My file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (92 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 47 1 opinions with respect to his diagnosis and his 2 disease, I'm relying upon the medical records. 3 So I have not relied on Mr. McCarty's affidavit 4 with respect to either of the exposure 5 assessment or the diagnosis. 6 Q. Why not? I mean, it's the man's 7 sworn testimony. Don't you typically rely upon 8 somebody's sworn testimony about what they say 9 their exposure was? 10 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 11 the question. 12 A. I don't believe that Mr. McCarty's 13 testimony provided me with a basis for rendering 14 an exposure assessment. 15 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Why is that, based on 16 what his affidavit said? 17 A. As I recall, to the best of my 18 recollection, the only description I have that 19 relates to his specific exposure at Univar file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (93 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 relating to drum-filling is contained in the 21 affidavit and the testimony of Mr. Beverly. 22 Q. Are there any other documents that 23 you reviewed or relied upon in forming your 24 opinions in this case that are not contained in 25 Exhibit 1, which is your case notebook file? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (94 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 48 1 A. Other than the literature in general 2 related to myelodysplastic syndrome and acute 3 myeloid leukemia, I don't believe so. 4 Q. All right. And you told us with 5 regard to the studies that you felt were 6 substantial and significant to your opinions, 7 you've included those in Exhibit 1; is that 8 correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Let's mark the subpoena as 11 Exhibit 4, please. 12 (Irons Deposition Exhibit 4 was 13 marked.) 14 Q. I noticed you had a copy of 15 Exhibit 4 in your notebook here? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. When is the first time you saw 18 Exhibit 4? 19 A. I believe it was the 25th of this file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (95 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 month. 21 Q. You brought with you a copy of your 22 resume or CV, correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Do you have a current or present job 25 description? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (96 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 49 1 A. No. 2 Q. You don't have one either for the 3 University of Colorado or for your work over in 4 Shanghai? 5 A. No. 6 Q. I'm correct about that? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Have you brought with you all the 9 documents that have been supplied to you or 10 reviewed by you in preparation for your 11 deposition? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. All right. The next set of 14 requests, 4 through 13, deal with documents 15 relating to your study in Shanghai. Did you 16 bring with you any -- anything other than the 17 studies that relate to your Shanghai work? 18 A. Other than a description of the 19 laboratory, no, I have not. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (97 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. Are you able to -- how do you 21 communicate with the others in Shanghai when you 22 are here in the states? Do you do that by 23 email? 24 A. Others? I'm not sure what you are 25 referring to. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (98 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 50 1 Q. Are there others? 2 A. Who? 3 Q. Do you have doctors and 4 epidemiologists and other people involved in the 5 Shanghai study that are in China? 6 A. At any given time, I communicate 7 with my laboratory, with pathologists, and 8 hematologists in Shanghai. I communicate with 9 others who are involved in -- on the research 10 side of the project, both in the United States 11 and China. I communicate through quantitative 12 database interaction and also via email. 13 Q. How do you keep up with and store 14 your correspondence or communications and email? 15 A. I review emails like anybody else. 16 I don't store them. The data that's collected 17 as part of this study is contained in a database 18 that provides both support for the clinical 19 operations and data that is used in the various file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (99 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 research projects. 21 Q. All right. What about other 22 correspondence? Do you have correspondence that 23 you do keep? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Next item is No. 5: Invoices, file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (100 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 51 1 receipts, bills, accounts receivable, and other 2 documents reflecting any payment or 3 consideration given to you by the University of 4 Colorado relating to your work at Shanghai. Did 5 you bring any such documents? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Does the University of Colorado, are 8 they the ones who pay you for your work in 9 Shanghai or somebody else? 10 A. I'm an employee of the University of 11 Colorado. The University of Colorado provides 12 me with a salary. The study in Shanghai is 13 basically conducted through international treaty 14 and contract involving the University of 15 Colorado, the State of Colorado, Fudan 16 University, the Shanghai Public Health Bureau, 17 University of Cincinnati, the Chinese Ministry 18 of Health and Exxon-Mobil Biomedical Sciences. 19 Q. So do you have invoices, receipts, file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (101 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 and checks that you get from those entities 21 relating to payments made to you? 22 A. No, no payments are made directly to 23 me other than the salary that I receive from the 24 University of Colorado. 25 Q. Well, so for your work in Shanghai, file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (102 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 52 1 the University of Colorado pays you, correct? 2 A. The University of Colorado pays my 3 salary. Part of that involves the studies that 4 I'm doing in Shanghai. 5 Q. When you started these studies in 6 Shanghai in 2000, was there an increase in your 7 salary for the work you are doing in Shanghai? 8 A. No. 9 Q. With regard to Item No. 6, you can 10 see that there, did you bring any documents that 11 are responsive to that? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Do you have any in your possession? 14 A. I have received no scientific 15 article -- no, I've not received any of those 16 types of materials from any of the sponsoring 17 corporations or any other company. 18 Q. Next item is any PowerPoint 19 presentations relating to benzene studies being file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (103 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 conducted in Shanghai, China. Do you have any 21 of those? 22 A. I have some PowerPoint files that 23 contain data and/or information that I provided 24 or presented at various meetings and scientific 25 meetings. I did not bring those today. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (104 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 53 1 Q. Why is that? 2 A. I informed Mr. Scott when I received 3 the subpoena that a great deal of the 4 information that you requested is either -- I'm 5 prohibited by law from providing it to you, 6 either Chinese or U.S., and that some of the 7 information that you've asked for I need to 8 ascertain from the participating organizations 9 to get permission to provide them. And at this 10 particular point, I didn't have any particular 11 presentations that I felt that I could provide 12 to you without going through that process. 13 Q. Others besides you have made 14 PowerPoint presentations concerning efforts to 15 gain additional members of the petroleum 16 industry to participate in the funding of your 17 Shanghai studies, correct? 18 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 19 question. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (105 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. I can't speak to that in an informed 21 way one way or the other. 22 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) You have no knowledge 23 of that? 24 A. No. 25 Q. With regard to No. 8, do you have file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (106 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 54 1 any documents responsive to No. 8? 2 A. It's essentially the same response 3 that I gave before. The memoranda and 4 correspondence that I have relating to the 5 individual sponsoring companies concerns solely 6 the work product progress and budgetary items 7 related to the project, and at this point I 8 don't feel that I can provide those to you 9 within the limitations that I have both legally 10 and contractually. 11 Q. Can you check with the member 12 companies and find out if there would be any 13 problems with us having any of that 14 correspondence? 15 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 16 the question. 17 A. The only correspondence I have 18 relates to progress on the budget. And the 19 budget with respect to the study, like any other file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (107 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 research study, is confidential, and this would 21 require both the approval of the University of 22 Colorado, Fudan University, and the various -23 not sponsoring -- the various participating 24 organizations that I mentioned. 25 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) The only way that we file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (108 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 55 1 would be able to obtain copies of that would be 2 have a court order to get it; is that right? 3 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 4 the question. 5 A. I'm not an attorney. I can't tell 6 you that. 7 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) You are not going to 8 turn it over to me just for the asking. You are 9 telling me that, correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. So if it gets turned over to me, a 12 court is going to have to tell you to do; is 13 that right? 14 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 15 the question. 16 A. I presume so. 17 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) With regard to any of 18 the other enumerated items there through 14, do 19 you have any of those items in your possession file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (109 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 that you brought with you today? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Do you have any other items in your 23 possession that you -- would be responsive to 24 any of those specific enumerated requests and, 25 if so, would you be able to provide me with a file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (110 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 56 1 copy of them? 2 A. I'm not sure I understand the 3 question. 4 Q. Well, I mean, I guess we could go 5 through it one by one and say -- you know, ask 6 the question, but if you could go down the list 7 and say, yes, I have documents responsive to 8 this question but I can't give them to you 9 because of X reason or I will give them to 10 you -- could you do that for me, please? 11 A. I think we would have to go through 12 them one by one. Some of these I'm prohibited 13 by U.S. law. I can't give them to you. No. 10, 14 I'm prohibited by the U.S. Common Rules. CFR 15 41, whatever it is, relating to independence of 16 clinical trials and confidentiality of patient 17 and clinical information. Information such as 18 that the sponsors in the studies don't have, and 19 it isn't public, and therefore I can't as a file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (111 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 principal investigator on this study provide 21 many of these things based upon those 22 regulations and governing procedures. 23 Q. All right. What about the rest of 24 them? 25 A. 12 we've discussed. 10 we've file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (112 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 57 1 discussed. 2 Q. Well, 12, I don't know if we 3 discussed any expenses that you've incurred and 4 if there is any evidence or documents that show 5 that relating to your work at Shanghai. 6 A. This would fall under the same 7 restrictions that -- with the budgetary. I 8 mean, this is all part and parcel of the 9 budgetary issues relating to the study. 10 Q. Have there been any payments like in 11 No. 13 from any of the oil companies funding the 12 study made directly to you? 13 A. No. 14 Q. All right. He needs to change his 15 tape so we need to go off the record. 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 17 approximately 11:51 a.m. and we are now off the 18 record. 19 (A break was taken.) file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (113 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 21 approximately 11:55 a.m. and we are back on the 22 record. 23 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Sir, we were about 24 finished talking about the subpoena duces tecum. 25 I think we were to the last page. Is there Item file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (114 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 58 1 14 on there or is 13 the last one? 2 A. I think 13 is the last one. 3 Q. We are finished. With regard to the 4 notes of your conversation with Mr. Plisko 5 yesterday and his exposure assessment model, 6 would you agree if the information that he has 7 provided you in his model was incorrect in any 8 way that you would have an inaccurate exposure 9 assessment? 10 A. To the degree that those particular 11 assumptions influence the model, that's correct. 12 Some of them would influence the model in a 13 great -- in a very significant way; others would 14 influence the model in a minor way. That's the 15 nature of an exposure assessment. 16 Q. All right. Every one that you've 17 written down in your notes you felt like was 18 important, correct? 19 A. I felt that these were in fact the file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (115 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 assumptions that were the basis for the 21 calculations that he did. Some are more 22 critical than others. 23 Q. Which ones are more critical than 24 others, in your opinion? 25 A. Airspeed is critical. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (116 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 59 1 Q. Airspeed of what? 2 A. Air. The speed of air in the area 3 in which the drumming is being performed and 4 conducted is a critical factor. The -5 Q. Why was there any reference to 6 airspeed at all? 7 A. Because the model assumes a 8 concentration associated with an inverted cone 9 around the drum and in the area of the operator. 10 Q. All right. 11 A. That concentration and the 12 equilibration within that cone is dependent upon 13 airspeed. 14 Q. What was the airspeed that was 15 assumed? 16 A. One mile per hour. 17 Q. All right. Is that typical of a 18 vapor recovery system or exhaust system in 19 place? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (117 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. This is -- my understanding is that 21 this does not involve a recovery system. This 22 is open or, slash, loading. Now, that's my 23 assumption based upon the conversation that I 24 had, that in fact this particular model does 25 not -- is not associated with a vapor recovery file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (118 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 60 1 system. 2 Q. Is it your assumption that this 3 model that you have is not associated with any 4 engineering controls regarding ventilation? 5 A. I believe so, yes. 6 Q. That's very important to know that? 7 A. That's my assumption. 8 Q. If that assumption is incorrect, 9 then your exposure assessment and the things 10 that you've relied upon would be flawed, 11 correct? 12 MR. SCOTT: Object to form. 13 A. I have not made a exposure 14 assessment. This particular assessment would 15 vary depending upon the assumptions that go into 16 it. 17 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Your opinions based 18 upon this exposure assessment would be flawed if 19 the exposure assessment is wrong, correct? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (119 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. If in fact the conditions are 21 different, then I would have to review whatever 22 other exposure assessment is performed and 23 understand it before I would be willing to 24 render an opinion on that particular 25 quantitative exposure assessment. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (120 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 61 1 Q. You would want to make sure that 2 what Mr. Plisko was telling you were the 3 conditions better have been the conditions that 4 Mr. McCarty was exposed to before you make 5 opinions about whether or not his exposure could 6 have caused his illness, correct? That's only 7 fair, isn't it? 8 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 9 question. 10 A. As an expert, all I can do is render 11 an opinion on the information I have been 12 provided and that I rely upon. My opinion 13 relates -- my opinion with respect to 14 quantitative exposure is based on this 15 assessment. If in fact this assessment is 16 modified, changed, or improved or invalidated, 17 that would change my opinion. With respect to 18 the exposure assessment, I would have to render 19 a opinion based on that exposure assessment. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (121 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) That's the old rule 21 garbage in, garbage out, correct? 22 A. I don't know what you are referring 23 to. 24 Q. Well, your opinions in this case 25 that you are going to be providing are only as file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (122 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 62 1 good as the information that you have to base 2 them on, correct? 3 A. That's the nature of any expert 4 opinion. 5 Q. Okay. And you, as you are sitting 6 here, you are not an expert on exposure 7 assessments, are you? 8 A. Not as an industrial hygienist. As 9 a toxicologist I am. 10 Q. Well, you are not an expert and you 11 are not going to be providing opinions as to 12 whether or not the exposure assessment that has 13 been provided to you is done in compliance with 14 all industrial hygiene standards and in 15 compliance with good practices, correct? 16 A. I can't speak to the specific 17 industrial hygiene standards that relate to the 18 assessment. I am assuming that in fact the 19 model that was used in fact is consistent with file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (123 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 the mathematical modeling that is published by 21 the ACGIH. I can only render an opinion based 22 upon the expertise of the industrial hygienists 23 and engineers that provided this to me. 24 Q. Okay. That's what I'm getting at. 25 I don't think we are disagreeing. You are not file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (124 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 63 1 the guy to come in and say this model is 2 appropriate and is a reasonable relationship or 3 reasonable estimate of what was going on; you 4 are relying upon Mr. Spencer's group or Mr. 5 Plisko to tell you that, correct? 6 A. I'm relying upon them to tell me 7 about the model they used and I am assuming that 8 the conditions and assumptions that are part of 9 the model in fact are accurate insofar as we can 10 determine. 11 Q. All right. If we want to know -12 without an assumption, if we want to know for 13 sure, we need to ask Mr. Plisko or Mr. Spencer, 14 correct? 15 A. With respect to this model, correct. 16 Q. One thing you told me is that you 17 thought that there was an assumption that 18 Mr. McCarty was filling drums with benzene on a 19 one-time-a-month basis, correct? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (125 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. That is what this model that I have 21 in front of me assumes. 22 Q. All right. I think it says down 23 here six times a year. Do you see that, six 24 days a year? 25 A. That's cumulative, yes. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (126 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 64 1 Q. That's equivalent to two times, once 2 every two months, correct? 3 A. No. That's six days a year at four 4 hours a day. Four hours a day is roughly half a 5 day. So over a year period it would amount to 6 six days a year. 240 minutes represents 7 basically half a day. So this assumes a 8 six-day-a-year total. You can modify the 9 quantitative assessment based upon changes in 10 assumption with respect to the times per month 11 or with respect to the number of days, depending 12 upon whatever information that you have. 13 Q. When you typically rely upon 14 exposure assessments in performing opinions 15 about causation of benzene-related illnesses, 16 are they typically in the format that you have 17 right here, based on a 30-minute telephone 18 conversation with somebody you don't know? 19 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (127 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 question. 21 A. I rely on exposure assessments that 22 are provided to me that range from very detailed 23 reports to very sparse information, depending 24 upon what the nature of the information is and 25 what I've been asked to do. I am not providing file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (128 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 65 1 the exposure assessment here. I'm relying on 2 this quantitative exposure assessment. 3 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) All right. We were 4 discussing the things that you thought were most 5 critical on the assumptions that you were making 6 or on the model and the notes that you took from 7 the model that you -- was discussed with you. 8 What other besides airspeed was significant or 9 would be of the most critical factors on that 10 model? 11 A. The airspeed is the most critical. 12 It changes -- it changes the quantitative 13 assessment in a linear way, which means if you 14 fluctuate the airspeed, you change the nature of 15 the assessment -16 Q. All right. 17 A. -- number. 18 Q. What besides airspeed then is 19 critical? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (129 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. I think that's the most critical. 21 The rest of them are part of the equation. If 22 you take any one of them out, you don't have an 23 equation. But in terms of sensitivity with 24 respect to how it changes the nature of the 25 exposure assessment, the airspeed is the file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (130 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 66 1 critical factor. 2 Q. In the line of ranking, the 3 assumptions that are in your notes there, from 4 most critical to least critical, airspeed would 5 be at the top, then; is that correct? 6 A. Airspeed would be at the top. 7 Q. What would be next? 8 A. Number of air changes. 9 Q. What is that? 10 A. That's the number of times per 11 minute that the volume of air changes. And 12 those are -- those are related, but the airspeed 13 is probably the driving factor. 14 Q. All right. The number of times that 15 the air changes, what is the assumption in the 16 notes that you have there? 17 A. It's 15 cubic meters per minute. 18 Q. What's the next most critical factor 19 in your opinion? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (131 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. The fact that this is neat benzene. 21 Q. Do you have any reason to doubt that 22 what was being drummed into the 55-gallon drums 23 was pure benzene? 24 A. I haven't seen anything in the 25 information that was provided to me that would file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (132 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 67 1 corroborate or document that in fact it was 2 benzene. I am simply assuming for purposes of 3 this analysis that it is benzene. I have no 4 basis in terms of what I've read to rely or to 5 conclude that in fact benzene, neat benzene was 6 being drummed. 7 Q. Well, you have read the deposition 8 of Mr. Beverly, and I know you told us you 9 didn't read the deposition or affidavit of 10 Mr. McCarty, but you know -11 A. I did read Mr. McCarty's affidavit. 12 Q. Oh, you did. 13 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 14 the question. 15 A. I don't recall his affidavit in 16 terms of substance. 17 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Okay. Did you see 18 where Mr. Beverly said it was benzene that they 19 were drumming? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (133 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. I did. 21 Q. Did you see Mr. Harold Wellen's 22 testimony where he said, "Yes, in fact we did 23 drum benzene at that facility during the 1960s"? 24 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 25 question. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (134 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 68 1 A. I recall seeing references to the 2 possibility of drumming at that facility. I 3 don't recall that it was during the same period 4 that we -- that's under -- that's at issue in 5 this case. 6 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) What period do you 7 recall benzene having been drummed from Harold 8 Wellen's testimony? 9 A. I don't recall specifically 10 Mr. Wellen's. I reviewed a great deal of 11 testimony relating to this particular site and 12 the information that was provided to me in the 13 exhibits that Frank Parker provided, and in 14 there, there were frequent references to the 15 fact that benzene was not drummed at this 16 facility, and I recall there was one reference 17 that suggested perhaps there was -- that there's 18 a possibility of benzene being drummed in the 19 late 1960s. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (135 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. Let me object to responsiveness. 21 With regard to the deposition of Harold 22 Wellen -- well, let me ask: Did you see the 23 notes, the invoice documents from ARCO which 24 said benzene was delivered to the Van Waters & 25 Rogers Beaumont facility in tank trucks to be file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (136 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 69 1 drummed out of the tank trucks? 2 A. If -- I don't recall specifically 3 those documents. If you would like to discuss 4 them, I would like to pull them out and refer to 5 them. 6 Q. I'm just asking if you recall them. 7 A. I don't recall them specifically. 8 Q. With regard to the next most 9 critical factor in the assumptions that were 10 made in the exposure estimate, what is next in 11 line after pure benzene? 12 A. Probably the rate of drumming. 13 Q. The fill rate? 14 A. Yes. The number of drums per minute 15 is probably next, although at this point we 16 begin to get into areas that I don't think -- I 17 mean, this assumes an inverted cone model, which 18 is what the ACGIH assessment strategy for 19 estimating exposure from drumming uses. If you file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (137 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 accept that model based on the ACGIH, then 21 that's what it is, an inverted cone. So there 22 are aspects of this model that if you eliminate 23 those assumptions, you don't have a model, but I 24 wouldn't say they are critical with respect to 25 taking the individual conditions and numbers file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (138 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 70 1 that are used in this equation and calculating 2 an exposure estimate from it. 3 Q. Are there assumptions in that, your 4 notes, dealing with the temperature that it is 5 alleged to have been drummed in? 6 A. There -- is it Mr. Plisko? I'm not 7 sure. Mr. Plisko described to me the condition 8 standard temperature and pressure. He related 9 to me the temperature that was used in the 10 model. I did not write that down because it was 11 not -- in terms of my use of this model, I 12 wasn't prepared to evaluate the role of 13 temperature in the actual equation. But I 14 believe that it was on the order of 70, or 15 something like that, Fahrenheit. 16 Q. 70 degrees Fahrenheit? 17 A. I believe, but I'm not sure. 18 Q. It would be a huge difference in the 19 amount of benzene vapor getting into the air if file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (139 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 it was being drummed in 90-degree temperature as 21 opposed to 70-degree temperature, correct? 22 A. That would make some difference. 23 You would have to ask Dr. Spencer or Mr. Plisko 24 as to the specific impact that would have on the 25 calculation. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (140 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 71 1 Q. All right. You have not done that 2 as part of your reliance upon his work that 3 you've got there, correct? 4 A. No. 5 Q. The size of the bung holes that are 6 in the drum, would that make a difference in the 7 amount of benzene vapor escaping into the air? 8 A. I couldn't tell you that. Obviously 9 if you are talking about an open container or 10 you are talking about a bung hole, it would make 11 a difference. How that impacts on the model, I 12 can't tell you. 13 Q. Just some more background 14 information. Prior to your deposition today, 15 did you have a chance to meet with Mr. Scott? 16 A. I've discussed this case with 17 Mr. Scott, yes. 18 Q. Did you discuss this case with 19 Mr. Scott today? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (141 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. Briefly, yes. 21 Q. Well, for how long? 22 A. Probably half an hour related to 23 this case. 24 Q. All right. You met with him this 25 morning, what time? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (142 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 72 1 A. 9 o'clock. 2 Q. Did you meet with him yesterday? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What time did you all meet 5 yesterday? 6 A. We met yesterday afternoon from 7 approximately 3 o'clock till about 6 or 8, 8 somewhere in there. 9 Q. All right. Any other meetings in 10 preparation for your deposition besides today 11 and yesterday? 12 A. Specifically relating to deposition, 13 no. I believe I've consulted by telephone with 14 Mr. Scott on matters related to this case maybe 15 a total of an hour and a half, maybe two hours 16 over the last several months. 17 Q. Are you being compensated for your 18 time here today, sir? 19 A. Yes. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (143 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. What is your rate of compensation 21 for your time in testifying? 22 A. My rate for consulting in all 23 matters is $500 an hour. 24 Q. Do you know how many total hours 25 you've spent in this case so far? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (144 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 73 1 A. All told, maybe 30. I'm not sure. 2 Q. All right. So we are talking about 3 $15,000 is a ballpark estimate of what you've 4 been paid in this case so far for your time? 5 A. I haven't billed yet in this case, 6 so I haven't been paid. 7 Q. All right. With regard to the 30 8 hours that you spent, you will bill at $500 an 9 hour regardless of what you were doing during 10 the hour in working on this case -11 A. Correct. 12 Q. -- whether it's deposition, prep 13 time, travel time, or anything else; is that 14 correct? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. As of right now if you had to bill 17 Mr. Scott, you would bill him about $15,000; is 18 that correct? 19 A. I believe so. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (145 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. Is your educational background 21 accurately stated in your CV, sir? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Is the work history accurately 24 stated in your CV? 25 A. Yes. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (146 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 74 1 Q. Do you have any licenses or 2 certifications in any fields? 3 A. I am board-certified in toxicology. 4 I have an inactive license as a clinical 5 laboratory scientist in the state of California. 6 I have an active license to operate a laboratory 7 and render laboratory diagnoses in the People's 8 Republic of China. I have a clinic laboratory 9 license in Shanghai. 10 Q. You've told us you are not an 11 epidemiologist and a medical doctor, correct? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. You are not a certified safety 14 professional; is that right? 15 A. I'm a toxicologist. 16 Q. All right. You are not a certified 17 safety professional, correct? 18 A. That's a jargon I'm not familiar 19 with. I'm not an industrial hygienist. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (147 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. You are not an industrial hygienist, 21 and there's a -- are you aware of a 22 certification in the field of safety that people 23 can get and they are entitled certified safety 24 professionals? 25 A. Well, I don't have a certification. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (148 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 75 1 Q. You are not an engineer; is that 2 correct? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. Do you have any legal training as a 5 lawyer? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Do you consider yourself to be an 8 OSHA compliance expert? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Do you consider yourself to be an 11 expert in human factors engineering or warnings 12 expert? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Have you ever had your testimony or 15 opinions stricken, disqualified, or limited by 16 any court in any case where you've been an 17 expert witness? 18 A. I know of one occasion where I 19 believe a judge in West Virginia ordered me to file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (149 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 render an opinion I did not hold. Ordered me 21 not to -- sorry -- ordered me not to render an 22 opinion that I did not hold. 23 Q. So a judge has ordered you or 24 prohibited you in the past from rendering an 25 opinion in a case where you were testifying as file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (150 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 76 1 an expert; is that correct? 2 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 3 the question. 4 A. I believe what I've said -- what I 5 said is that a judge has ordered me not to 6 render an opinion which I also did not have. So 7 I did not make an opinion that a judge ordered 8 me not to give. 9 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) What was the order? 10 Do you remember what the judge ordered you not 11 to give an opinion on? 12 A. Not as I sit here. I can't -- I 13 can't state it precisely. It's fairly obtuse. 14 Q. Well, just in general. I'm not 15 asking for an exact. 16 A. I believe it related to offering an 17 opinion associated with what -- with a 18 particular type of cytogenetic abnormality 19 associated with leukemia. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (151 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. The cytogenetic abnormality, was it 21 a loss or deletion of certain chromosomes? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Did it deal with a loss or deletion 24 of chromosome 5 or 7? 25 A. One or both. I can't recall. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (152 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 77 1 Q. Do you recall if he was saying you 2 cannot give an opinion on what that means in 3 terms of etiology of disease or causation? 4 A. No. It was far more restricted than 5 that. It was far -- it wasn't that general at 6 all. 7 Q. Do you have a copy of that order? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Do you remember the lawyer who had 10 hired you in the case where you were limited 11 like that? 12 A. Joseph Hollingsworth. 13 Q. When did that occur? 14 A. A long time ago. I don't remember 15 precisely. 16 Q. In your entire career, have you ever 17 testified as an expert on behalf of a cancer 18 victim who has brought suit against a company 19 claiming a chemical exposure caused his or her file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (153 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 disease? 21 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 22 question. 23 A. No. 24 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Have you ever 25 testified as an expert on behalf of any file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (154 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 78 1 plaintiff in a personal injury case? 2 A. I have not given any testimony on 3 behalf of a plaintiff. Excuse me. I have to 4 qualify that. I have not given any testimony on 5 behalf of an individual. I have given testimony 6 on behalf of a plaintiff. 7 Q. Let me object to responsiveness. 8 Have you ever given any testimony on behalf of a 9 plaintiff who was an individual involved in a 10 personal injury case? 11 A. No. 12 Q. When you have testified in the past 13 in cases where someone had brought suit claiming 14 exposure to chemicals had caused them to acquire 15 an illness, it has always been for the 16 defendant, correct? 17 A. I'm sorry; could you repeat the 18 question. 19 Q. Yes, sir. With regard to the file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (155 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 testimony in the past, you always testified on 21 behalf of defendants, correct? 22 A. In personal injury cases, that's 23 correct. 24 Q. And most of those times in a 25 personal injury case, if not all, have been file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (156 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 79 1 testifying for defendants who are oil or 2 chemical companies, correct? 3 A. Not all but certainly most. 4 Q. When have you testified in a case 5 involving a plaintiff claiming a personal injury 6 as a result of exposure where you were not 7 testifying for an oil or chemical company? 8 A. Although I can't think of a specific 9 case, I'm fairly certain I've testified in cases 10 or consulted in cases in which the defendant was 11 a premises or a factory or a company that was 12 not an oil or petroleum company or a chemical 13 company. 14 Q. Have you testified for 15 pharmaceutical companies? 16 A. I have certainly consulted for 17 pharmaceutical companies. I'm trying to 18 remember whether I've testified. I don't 19 specifically recall having testified in a file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (157 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 personal injury case on behalf of a 21 pharmaceutical company. I have consulted with 22 pharmaceutical companies on many issues. 23 Q. The publications that you have, 24 those are accurately set forth in your CV; is 25 that correct? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (158 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 80 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. Have you ever submitted an article 3 for publication that was denied? 4 A. Oh, yes. 5 Q. Have you ever submitted an article 6 for publication on benzene that was denied? 7 A. Oh, yeah. 8 Q. And were there efforts by you to go 9 back and change it, the article, so that it 10 could be published? 11 A. I'm not sure how to respond to that. 12 I'm not sure exactly what you are asking. Could 13 you restate the question. 14 Q. Yes, sir. I mean, you've -- you 15 said you've submitted articles relating to 16 benzene that have been denied, and I was 17 wondering, when that occurred, did you go back 18 and try to, with regard to the part that was in 19 dispute, reconsider it and so that it could be file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (159 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 published? 21 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 22 question. 23 A. I don't think that's an accurate 24 representation of the peer review process, so 25 it's difficult for me to answer that in a file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (160 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 81 1 responsible way. 2 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Can you answer it one 3 way or the other? 4 A. Yes, I can answer it. It will take 5 a while. In the peer review process, a 6 scientist writes a manuscript or a paper that is 7 based upon a study, based upon data and 8 interpretation of that data, design, other 9 issues related to research or findings, 10 observations, and submits them to a journal for 11 consideration for publication. Part of that 12 involves editorial determination on the part of 13 the journal whether the article is topical or 14 the material is of sufficient interest to the 15 readership to warrant publication. 16 If in fact the article is deemed to 17 have sufficient interest for the readership, 18 then it will be submitted -- should be submitted 19 for peer review by independent reviewers, who file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (161 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 will review the article for scientific merit. 21 In general if it is deemed to have 22 sufficient scientific merit, there will then be 23 some recommendations for modifying the paper or 24 changing it, which is called revision. For the 25 majority of articles that I've submitted for file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (162 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 82 1 publication, they have involved some revision 2 one way or the other. That's the nature of the 3 process. Some on rare occasions are accepted 4 without revision. 5 In at this particular point in time, 6 competition in the scientific and medical 7 literature is such that it's very frequent that 8 you will submit a paper for publication and it 9 will never get to review because the editor 10 decides it's not of sufficient topical interest 11 to warrant publication. I have that happen all 12 the time. As a matter of fact, that's a 13 frequent problem relating to benzene because the 14 general interest in the scientific and medical 15 communities for benzene is far less than it used 16 to be. And therefore often a journal will 17 decide that papers relating to benzene per se 18 are not of sufficient interest to warrant 19 publication. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (163 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. How many articles have you submitted 21 where -- on benzene where they were denied not 22 because of lack of interest but because of 23 something that you stated in the article that 24 they either asked for revisions or for some 25 other reasons that they didn't want to publish? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (164 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 83 1 A. I couldn't tell you. I don't recall 2 having any specific articles that I've submitted 3 that have not at one point or another been 4 published. If not in the first journal, then 5 the second or the third. That's the nature of 6 the process. Some undergo extensive revision, 7 some don't. 8 Q. As of last year, 2005, what 9 percentage of your income was derived from 10 testifying as an expert on behalf of defendant 11 oil companies? 12 A. I can't recall exactly, but I would 13 say less than 20 percent. Again, that, I can't 14 tell you as I sit here exactly what it is. 15 Q. Could it have been as high as 16 50 percent? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Has it ever in any year been as high 19 as 50 percent, the amount of income you've file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (165 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 derived testifying as an expert in litigation? 21 A. Yes, probably. 22 Q. How long ago was that? 23 A. Five, six, seven years ago. 24 Somewhere in that, on the order. 25 Q. Slowing down a little, I guess? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (166 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 84 1 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 2 question. 3 A. I'm busy. 4 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Okay. I mean, is 5 that a fair statement that you are slowing down 6 in terms of the amount of work you are doing as 7 a defendant expert on behalf of oil or chemical 8 companies involved in litigation? 9 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 10 question. 11 A. That's certainly been the case for 12 the last few years. 13 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Can you give us an 14 idea of how much money you earned last year in 15 testifying for oil and chemical companies? 16 A. No, as a matter of fact I can't. 17 Q. Don't have any idea? 18 A. No. It's 20 percent or less of my 19 income, as I recall. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (167 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. How many active cases do you have 21 where you are retained as an expert for a 22 defendant oil or chemical company? 23 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 24 question. When you say active, Darren -- I'm 25 not trying to interrupt your question; I'm just file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (168 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 85 1 trying to understand the question. 2 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Active files. 3 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 4 question. 5 A. I don't think I can tell you, simply 6 because I don't know what's active and what 7 isn't. I don't know -- I would say at the 8 present time, a few. 9 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Well, let me ask you 10 this. When a case is resolved, do you usually 11 keep everything about the case and keep it in 12 storage, or do you get rid of it? 13 A. I get rid of it. 14 Q. All right. So when you have a case, 15 you usually have a notebook like this on a case? 16 A. Um-hum. 17 Q. Is that right? 18 A. Yes, if I'm preparing a report or 19 preparing for a deposition or trial, yes. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (169 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. All right. When you open a file or 21 are retained in a case, do you keep a file, 22 contract in the file, and some kind of evidence 23 that you've opened the case so you can have that 24 for your records? 25 A. I don't -- I don't sign retention file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (170 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 86 1 letters. I don't -- I mean, I don't sign 2 contracts. So I have no contracts and/or -3 Q. How is it that you keep up with the 4 cases that you've been asked to open? 5 A. If I have -- if I have file 6 information relating to a case, whether it's 7 testimony or medical records, I will keep notes 8 that are related to that. 9 Q. Correspondence where you've been 10 retained or asked to help? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. How many of those letters, 13 correspondence, letters, that you have that are 14 active and haven't been thrown away, in your 15 filing cabinets? 16 A. Probably between -- probably less 17 than a dozen. Maybe six. Probably more than 18 six. I can't tell you exactly. 19 Q. Between six and a dozen; is that file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (171 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 right? 21 A. I would say yes. That I've been 22 contacted at one level or another. 23 Q. And that are currently still active; 24 is that right? 25 A. That I can't tell you. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (172 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 87 1 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 2 question. 3 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Well, they haven't 4 been thrown away, is what I'm asking? 5 A. I haven't thrown them away. That 6 doesn't mean the cases are still active. I 7 don't think I'm necessarily kept that current 8 with respect to what's going on in terms of 9 litigation. 10 Q. Would it be fair to say that you 11 have earned a good living working for oil 12 companies testifying as expert when you've been 13 hired by Mr. Scott or Mr. Dillard or somebody 14 else who is representing them in lawsuits? 15 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 16 question. 17 A. I'm sorry. If I had to rely on my 18 income from testifying, I think I would be in 19 pretty poor shape right now. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (173 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) So the answer to my 21 question is, no, you don't think you've earned a 22 good living doing this? 23 A. I'm certainly not earning a living 24 from testifying. 25 Q. Let's talk about hazards of benzene. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (174 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 88 1 You would agree, sir, that benzene is a poison, 2 correct? 3 A. Yes, almost all -- all chemicals are 4 poisons, and benzene is a poison. 5 Q. When you say almost all chemicals 6 are poison, does that include water? 7 A. Yes, water is a poison, and if you 8 drink enough fast enough, it will kill you. 9 Q. Do you consider what degree of 10 toxicity or poisonous nature that benzene is on 11 any stretch of the imagination equivalent to 12 water? 13 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 14 question. 15 A. No, but all chemicals are poisons. 16 So if you ask me if benzene is a poison, as a 17 toxicologist my answer is yes, and all chemicals 18 are poisons. Benzene is more toxic than water. 19 It is more potent than water. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (175 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Benzene is an 21 extremely insidious and toxic poison, correct? 22 A. I wouldn't agree to that 23 characterization. 24 Q. Would you agree it's an insidious 25 poison? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (176 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 89 1 A. No. 2 Q. So you would dispute the National 3 Safety Council in their 1950 document where they 4 said benzene is one of the most insidious 5 poisons ever to find wide industrial use? 6 A. Insidious is not a toxicologic term. 7 It's not a technical term. It's an adjective. 8 I wouldn't consider any poison necessarily to be 9 insidious. Benzene causes chronic toxicity. It 10 causes acute toxicity. I don't think insidious 11 is a technically useful term in describing a 12 poison. 13 Q. Let me object to responsiveness. My 14 question was, would you agree with the National 15 Safety Council in its 1950 document where they 16 describe benzene as one of the most insidious 17 poisons ever to find wide industrial use? 18 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 19 question. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (177 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. I wouldn't consider that kind of a 21 statement to be a type of statement I would rely 22 upon in rendering an opinion as a toxicologist. 23 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) My question was, 24 would you agree or disagree with it? 25 A. I disagree with the statement as a file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (178 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 90 1 toxicologist. 2 Q. You agree that benzene is a cancer3 causing substance, correct? 4 A. I do. 5 Q. That it has been determined to be a 6 cancer-causing substance in humans by nearly 7 every governmental agency or entity who studies 8 cancer causation, correct? 9 A. The science relating to the toxicity 10 of benzene demonstrates that chronic exposure 11 can lead to the development of acute myeloid 12 leukemia. Any government agency that relies on 13 or reviews the world literature should reach the 14 same conclusion. 15 Q. Acute myeloid leukemia is cancer of 16 the blood, correct? 17 A. It is one cancer of the blood. 18 Q. It is the type of cancer that 19 Mr. McCarty had, correct? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (179 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. It is part of the spectrum of bone 21 marrow disease that Mr. McCarty had. 22 Q. The other part was meylodysplastic 23 syndrome that transformed to acute myelogenous 24 leukemia, correct? 25 A. Apparently that's the case, yes. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (180 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 91 1 Certainly the laboratory records demonstrate 2 that he had refractory anemia with excess 3 blasts. Whether or not in fact that transformed 4 into what is technically AML is not significant 5 with respect to the nature or severity of the 6 disease that he had. 7 Q. Let me object to the responsiveness. 8 IARC, what is IARC? 9 A. International Agency for Research on 10 Cancer. 11 Q. They have determined that benzene is 12 a confirmed carcinogen, correct? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. National Toxicology Program, what is 15 that? 16 A. That's a research arm of the 17 National Institute of Environmental Health 18 Sciences based on -- I believe it's still part 19 of the National Institute of Environmental file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (181 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Sciences, but I'm not sure administratively 21 whether it is. 22 Q. That's an organization that has 23 determined that benzene is a known cancer24 causing agent in man, correct? 25 A. I believe the NTP has based their file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (182 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 92 1 criteria on animal studies, to the best of my 2 recollection they have in fact determined that 3 it does produce cancers in animals. 4 Q. All right. Is it your testimony 5 that the National Toxicology Program does not 6 consider benzene to be carcinogenic in man? 7 A. I don't recall whether the NTP rates 8 carcinogens, human carcinogens, specifically on 9 human data. 10 Q. So you don't know; is that fair? 11 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 12 the question. 13 A. I'm just answering -- I'm trying to 14 answer responsively your specific question. The 15 NTP does animal studies, and I believe that they 16 have classified benzene according to those 17 studies. Part of that classification scheme, as 18 I recall, does involve probable human 19 carcinogen. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (183 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) What is the National 21 Toxicology Program's assessment of benzene and 22 whether or not it is confirmed or a probable 23 carcinogen for a possible carcinogen? 24 A. It's confirmed. 25 Q. How about OSHA, do they recognize file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (184 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 93 1 benzene as a cancer-causing substance in man? 2 A. Yeah, I believe so, yes. 3 Q. How about NIOSH? 4 A. I believe so. 5 Q. What about the Environmental 6 Protection Agency? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. You yourself recognize benzene as a 9 cancer-causing substance, correct? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. And you would agree that it is 12 generally accepted among members of the medical 13 and scientific field who study cancer that 14 benzene can cause cancer, correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. You recognize that exposure to 17 benzene can cause acute myelogenous leukemia, 18 correct? 19 A. Acute myeloid leukemia, yes. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (185 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. Do you also recognize that it can 21 cause acute myelogenous leukemia? 22 A. That term is not the currently 23 accepted terminology for the diagnosis of the 24 disease, which is why I differed. You can call 25 it myelogenous, but the current WHO standard file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (186 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 94 1 classification refers to it specifically as 2 acute myeloid. It's a trivial point, but it's a 3 specific term. 4 Q. Is it a point that makes any 5 difference in your opinions in this case? 6 A. No. 7 Q. What types of AML do you believe are 8 sufficiently linked to exposure to benzene? 9 A. Based on the current classification 10 scheme, it's difficult to ascertain specifically 11 which -- within the current classification, 12 which particular subtypes have or which 13 particular subtypes haven't been demonstrated to 14 be caused by benzene but I would say in general 15 it's impossible to exclude the possibility of 16 any particular subtype. Some have far more 17 evidence associated with them than others. 18 Q. All right. As a toxicologist, as a 19 defendant's expert in this case, are there any file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (187 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 types of AML or variants of AML which you can 21 rule out as being associated with benzene? 22 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 23 the question. 24 A. I think there are specific types for 25 which there has not been -- one can't say that file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (188 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 95 1 it's more probable than not that benzene is 2 associated with their development, but I also 3 can't say that benzene is not associated with 4 their development. 5 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Just for the record, 6 and respectfully, I need to object to 7 responsiveness, my question is simply is there 8 any type of AML or its variants which you as a 9 toxicologist can rule out as not being 10 associated with benzene? 11 A. I can't prove a negative. I can't 12 rule out anything. I can, however -- I do have 13 opinions with respect to the level of evidence 14 associated with specific subtypes. 15 Q. You recognize that exposure to 16 benzene can cause meylodysplastic syndrome, 17 correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You would agree with me that file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (189 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 epidemiological evidence is strong that exposure 21 to sufficient levels of benzene can cause acute 22 myelogenous or acute myeloid leukemia in man, 23 correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. What are some of the other diseases file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (190 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 96 1 or conditions of the blood and blood-forming 2 elements that you believe can be caused by 3 exposure to sufficient levels of benzene? 4 A. Specific diseases involve 5 myelodysplastic syndrome, some of its subtypes, 6 acute myeloid leukemia. Chronic exposure to 7 benzene can cause specific abnormalities of the 8 blood that may or may not be considered diseases 9 but certainly are conditions. Pancytopenia, 10 cytopenias, to some extent anemias. Did I 11 mention individual cytopenias? 12 Thrombocytopenia. 13 Q. Leukopenia? 14 A. That's synonymous with cytopenia, 15 yes. 16 Q. Okay. Aplastic anemia? 17 A. That's been a prevailing opinion for 18 many years. The number of actual cases for 19 which there is pathologic confirmation is very file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (191 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 small. At this point in time I'm not -- I'm 21 not, as I sit here, able to tell you whether or 22 not aplastic anemia and myelodysplastic syndrome 23 can be differentiated in terms of causation by 24 benzene. 25 Q. I don't know if I -- let me object file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (192 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 97 1 to responsiveness because I don't know if I 2 understand what you said. My question is, do 3 you have an opinion that aplastic anemia is 4 associated with exposure to benzene? 5 A. The literature definitely -- the 6 previous historical literature provides an 7 indication that exposure to benzene is 8 associated with development of aplastic anemia. 9 I personally -- I can't render an opinion with 10 respect to reasonable scientific certainty, but 11 I personally have some question as to whether 12 those cases of aplastic anemia were not in fact 13 myelodysplastic syndrome. 14 Q. Let me ask it this way. Would you 15 agree that it's generally accepted among members 16 of the medical and scientific fields in medicine 17 that benzene is associated with causing aplastic 18 anemia? 19 A. Yes. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (193 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. And you just have an opinion that it 21 might not be because somebody got the diagnosis 22 wrong and diagnosed aplastic anemia instead of 23 meylodysplastic syndrome; is that correct? 24 A. Many times. 25 Q. Meylodysplastic syndromes are file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (194 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 98 1 related to benzene; you've told us that, 2 correct? 3 A. That's correct. Let me clarify 4 this. I can -- I'm offering -- I'm giving you 5 an opinion with respect to reasonable scientific 6 probability, but I also have opinions that I 7 cannot -- or I have information and/or a 8 perception with respect to the actual evidence 9 that does not rise to that level of certainty 10 and that I can't offer as an expert opinion. 11 I can and I have said that the 12 literature indicates, the literature supports 13 the general scientific consensus that chronic 14 exposure to benzene can cause aplastic anemia. 15 At this point in time, as a scientist, I have 16 some questions whether the diagnoses and the 17 criteria that were used in the past to make 18 those -- to render that diagnosis were in fact 19 adequate. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (195 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. Let me object to everything after 21 "that's correct." Do you have an opinion 22 whether or not benzene can cause chronic 23 lymphocytic leukemia? 24 A. I don't believe that there is 25 sufficient evidence in the scientific and file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (196 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 99 1 medical literature to reach that conclusion. 2 Q. My question is, Do you have an 3 opinion that benzene can or cannot cause chronic 4 lymphocytic leukemia? 5 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 6 the question. 7 A. I believe I've answered that. I 8 don't believe that to a reasonable scientific 9 and medical probability there's evidence to 10 indicate that chronic exposure to benzene can 11 lead to the development of chronic lymphocytic 12 leukemia or small lymphocytic leukemia. 13 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) So the answer -14 A. Small lymphocytic lymphoma, excuse 15 me. 16 Q. So the jury and I can understand 17 exactly what is, would it be -- what you are 18 telling me is it's your opinion that benzene is 19 not sufficiently associated with causing CLL, file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (197 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 correct? 21 A. There is not sufficient evidence to 22 conclude that benzene causes CLL. 23 Q. You are aware of studies that find 24 excess CLLs among workers exposed to benzene 25 where those studies find a greater than twofold file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (198 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 100 1 increased risk at a confidence interval above 95 2 percent, correct? 3 A. Not based upon -- certainly not -4 not studies that I would rely on with respect to 5 the information, the data, or the relationship 6 with benzene specifically. 7 Q. All right. You are aware that the 8 Australian Healthwatch study comes to that 9 conclusion, correct? 10 A. No, I do not. 11 Q. You are not aware of that? 12 A. No. As a matter of fact, I brought 13 the latest publication relating to the 14 Australian Healthwatch study that documents or 15 at least brings up to date their current 16 findings, and it did does not comport with that. 17 Q. All right. So the excess CLLs in 18 the original Healthwatch study in Australia you 19 are saying have vanished? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (199 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 21 the question. 22 A. I'm saying that that study does not 23 in its totality support a conclusion that 24 benzene exposure is associated with the 25 development of CLL. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (200 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 101 1 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) The study as 2 originally published, do you agree that it 3 showed excess CLLs? 4 A. No, I cannot speak to that as I sit 5 here. My general understanding with respect to 6 the -- the Australian Healthwatch study is an 7 ongoing, progressive study. It has undergone 8 several revisions and modifications over time 9 with multiple different publications that have 10 come out and multiple changes in the conclusions 11 of the authors. The most recent conclusions of 12 the authors is there is insufficient evidence to 13 support a relationship in the study with 14 development of CLL, and in fact there's some -15 Q. All right. Let me object to the 16 nonresponsive portions of the answer. Do you 17 have an opinion that -- whether benzene can 18 cause CML? 19 A. I believe, again, that the file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (201 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 scientific and medical literature does not 21 support a causal relationship between chronic 22 exposure to benzene and the development of CML. 23 Q. Are you aware of any studies that 24 associate benzene with CML where the risks, 25 relative risk or observed risk, were greater file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (202 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 102 1 than twofold at a 95 percent confidence 2 interval? 3 A. I have not reviewed the literature 4 on CML in many years, so I don't remember the 5 specific studies that provide information 6 related to CML, but I don't believe there are 7 any that meet those criteria and certainly with 8 respect to reliable diagnosis of CML. 9 Q. Let me object to nonresponsive 10 portions of the answer. Are you aware of any -11 well, do you have an opinion as to whether acute 12 lymphocytic leukemia can be caused by exposure 13 to benzene? 14 A. There are no quantitative 15 epidemiology studies that provide a reliable or 16 significant data set to indicate that chronic 17 exposure to benzene results in the development 18 of ALL. 19 Q. Let me see if I understand what you file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (203 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 are saying. You are testifying that there are 21 no studies that show an increased risk of ALL 22 among benzene-exposed populations that exceed 23 twofold increased risk at a confidence interval 24 or 95 percent or greater; is that correct? 25 A. I believe so. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (204 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 103 1 Q. How about non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, do 2 you have an opinion whether benzene can cause 3 non-Hodgkin's lymphoma? 4 A. There have been studies that have 5 suggested that, but there are no adequate 6 epidemiology studies with respect to data set to 7 reach a conclusion with respect to the 8 relationship between benzene and non-Hodgkin's 9 lymphoma. There are certainly no studies that 10 provide a reliable quantitative indication of a 11 quantitative increased risk associated with 12 benzene exposure in non -- in Hodgkin lymphoma. 13 Q. Let me object to responsiveness. 14 Would your opinion be, as you sit here today, 15 that benzene does not cause non-Hodgkin's 16 lymphoma? 17 A. Are we talking Hodgkin lymphoma or 18 non-Hodgkin lymphoma? 19 Q. My question is non-Hodgkin's file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (205 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 lymphoma. 21 A. For non-Hodgkin lymphoma, there 22 are -- there's no indication that I believe 23 provides a clear-cut -- there are studies that 24 question there may be a relationship. There are 25 studies that have found no relationship. I file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (206 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 104 1 don't believe that as a whole, taken as a whole, 2 the epidemiology literature supports the 3 conclusion that chronic exposure to benzene is 4 associated with a significant or dose-dependent 5 increase in NHL. 6 Q. All right. Are you saying that in 7 terms of reasonable scientific certainty? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. All right. So you are not just 10 saying in reasonable medical probability; you 11 are saying in terms of reasonable scientific 12 certainty there is no studies? 13 A. I'm not sure how you distinguish or 14 discriminate between reasonable scientific 15 certainty and reasonable medical probability. 16 Seems to me that those are basically -- if there 17 are legal differences, I don't know what they 18 are. 19 Q. All right. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (207 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. I think to a reasonable scientific 21 probability, that has not been demonstrated to, 22 certainly within the general scientific 23 community. 24 Q. Were you aware of the Yin study? 25 Correct? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (208 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 105 1 A. Oh, yes. 2 Q. I know you have some criticisms of 3 that study, but that study does find that there 4 is an increased risk of non-Hodgkin's lymphoma 5 among benzene-exposed populations, correct? 6 A. It finds -- that study reported some 7 associations that are not related to dose -8 were not dose-dependent and raise very serious 9 questions with respect to whether in fact there 10 is a quantitative association. And the authors 11 of the Yin study and the NCI studies that 12 followed up on that I think reached similar 13 conclusions. It was a provocative finding and 14 suggested a possibility but certainly didn't 15 establish a causal relationship. 16 Q. Well, are you saying that the study 17 is unreliable? 18 A. I'm saying that the study has to be 19 taken in the context of the overall literature file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (209 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 and that there are aspects of the study that 21 render an interpretation -- an interpretation 22 that benzene causes NHL. The study is not 23 adequate to say that. 24 Q. My question was, Are you saying the 25 study is unreliable? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (210 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 106 1 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 2 the question. 3 A. I'm saying there are aspects in the 4 nature of that study that do not allow me as a 5 scientist to reach a conclusion that it 6 demonstrates an increased risk associated with 7 benzene exposure. 8 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) You would agree that 9 it's generally accepted among scientists and 10 health professionals in your field that 11 sufficient exposure to benzene can cause AML, 12 the type that Mr. McCarty had, correct? 13 A. It can cause AML. There are aspects 14 of his disease that I don't think necessarily 15 allow me to reach a conclusion that benzene is 16 associated with the development of the specific 17 type of disease that Mr. McCarty had. 18 Q. Well, let me object to 19 responsiveness. My question is, You file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (211 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 recognize -- or it is generally accepted among 21 scientists and health professionals in your 22 field that sufficient exposure to benzene can 23 cause AML, correct? 24 A. Yeah, that's correct. 25 Q. All right. You recognize that file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (212 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 107 1 Mr. McCarty was diagnosed by his treating 2 doctor, Dr. -- the cancer specialist, Dr. Jay 3 Schachner, and his doctors at M.D. Anderson with 4 AML, correct? 5 A. Refractory anemia with excess blasts 6 transforming into AML. 7 Q. You agree that refractory anemia 8 with excess blasts has been associated with 9 causing benzene in the medical and scientific 10 literature, correct? 11 A. Some forms of refractory anemia, 12 yes. Others, no. 13 Q. Do you have any information with 14 regard to the type of refractory anemia that 15 Mr. McCarty had? 16 A. There's reference in certainly 17 refractory anemia with excess blasts. There's 18 also information in his medical records to 19 suggest that in fact he may have had refractory file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (213 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 anemia with ring sideroblasts, and he certain -21 and the records certainly demonstrate that he 22 had prominent ring sideroblasts in his bone 23 marrow. 24 Q. Let me object to responsiveness. 25 Sir, do you dispute the diagnosis of M.D. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (214 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 108 1 Anderson that found that Mr. McCarty had acute 2 myelogenous leukemia? 3 A. No, I don't dispute it. It's not 4 clear to me what subtype. It is clear to me 5 that he had refractory anemia with excess blasts 6 that transformed -- probably transformed into 7 AML. That is not -- I don't believe that that 8 distinction is important with respect to the 9 issue of evaluating the relationship with 10 exposure to benzene. Benzene can cause -- with 11 sufficient exposure I believe benzene can cause 12 refractory anemia with excess blasts, and it can 13 cause AML. 14 Q. Let's go ahead and let him change 15 his tape. 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 17 approximately 12:54 p.m. and we are now off the 18 record. 19 (Discussion off the record.) file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (215 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 (Irons Deposition Exhibits 5 and 6 21 were marked.) 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 23 approximately 12:56 p.m. and we are back on the 24 record. 25 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Let me show you what file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (216 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 109 1 I've marked as Exhibit No. 5 to your deposition. 2 Do you recognize Casarett and Doull's Toxicology 3 as a reliable, learned treatise in the field of 4 toxicology? 5 A. It's a textbook that's respected in 6 the field of toxicology. 7 Q. Do you utilize that textbook in your 8 practice? 9 A. I haven't looked at it in quite some 10 time, but I have used it in the past. 11 Q. All right. This is the sixth 12 edition, and it's -- I want to refer you over to 13 page 402 where I've got the highlighted portion. 14 Is yours highlighted there, sir? 15 A. There's highlighting, yes. 16 Q. It says, "Curiously, AML is the 17 dominant leukemia associated with drug or 18 chemical exposure, followed by MDS," 19 myelodysplastic syndrome, and they quote Irons, file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (217 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 1997; is that correct? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. Is that you? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And you agree with that statement? 25 A. Yes. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (218 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 110 1 Q. It says, "The evidence that this 2 represents a continuum of one toxic response is 3 compelling," and again they quote you, Irons, 4 1997, correct? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. You agree with that statement? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Had you reviewed this portion of 9 this textbook prior to today either in terms of 10 peer review or for accuracy? 11 A. Not in particular, no. I don't 12 think I've ever seen this particular paragraph. 13 Q. The next statement, it says, "This 14 has also been linked to cytogenic abnormalities, 15 particularly the loss of all or part of 16 chromosomes 5 and 7; is that a correct 17 statement, sir? 18 A. That's definitely an accurate 19 description of the literature, and I have had file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (219 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 said that before several times. 21 Q. You still agree with that, correct? 22 A. I believe that the published 23 literature suggests a high association of 24 secondary leukemia with 5 and 7. 25 Q. "Remarkably, the frequency of these file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (220 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 111 1 deletions in patients who develop 2 myelodysplastic syndrome and/or AML after 3 treatment with acylating or other antineoplastic 4 agents ranges from 67 to 95 percent, depending 5 on the study." Did you know that to be a true 6 statement? 7 A. I believe that that's very similar 8 to what I've said in the past, and that refers 9 specifically to acylating chemotherapeutic 10 agents. 11 Q. All right. The next sentence says, 12 "Some of these same changes have been observed 13 in AML patients occupationally exposed to 14 benzene." Do you see that? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. Do you agree with that statement? 17 A. Yes, I do. 18 Q. Next statement says, down there at 19 the highlighted portion, "The relative low file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (221 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 frequency of deletions in chromosomes 5 and 7 in 21 de novo as compared with secondary AML suggest 22 that these -23 (The reporter interrupted for 24 clarification.) 25 Q. Let me just restart the whole file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (222 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 112 1 sentence over. It says, "The relatively low 2 frequency of the deletions in chromosomes 5 and 3 7 in de novo as compared with secondary AML 4 suggests that these cytogenic markers can be 5 useful in discriminating between toxic exposures 6 and other etiologies of this leukemia," and they 7 quote you; is that correct? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. Do you still agree with that 10 sentence? 11 A. I think it can be useful. I don't 12 think it's diagnostic. There are other 13 potential causes and etiologies for AML 14 associated with 5 and 7. Certainly the 15 literature currently supports that in fact 5 and 16 7 can be found with increased frequency in 17 benzene-associated leukemia. 18 Q. And what you mean here in "useful in 19 discriminating between toxic exposures and other file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (223 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 etiologies of leukemia" means that it could be 21 useful in determining whether or not a toxic 22 substance like benzene is the cause of the AML 23 as opposed to some other cause, correct? 24 A. It is one of the factors that can be 25 used in ascertaining potential cause. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (224 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 113 1 Q. Do you agree with what they say you 2 said here, sir? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. You don't want to change that at 5 all; is that correct? 6 A. That's what I just -- I just said. 7 Q. Are there any medical tests or 8 diagnostic procedures that can help determine 9 whether an AML is caused by exposure to toxic 10 substances such as benzene? 11 A. Specific procedures, no. The sum 12 total of the characteristics and presentation 13 can be useful in ascertaining the likelihood of 14 one etiology over another. 15 Q. All right. And one of those 16 specific tests would be a chromosomal analysis, 17 correct? 18 A. It's one of the tests. It's one of 19 those -- it's one of the procedures that can be file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (225 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 useful in discriminating between one etiology 21 and another. 22 Q. All right. You would agree that if 23 a person had sufficient exposure to benzene and 24 develops AML and his chromosome analysis 25 indicates a deletion of chromosome 5 or 7 then file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (226 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 114 1 such would provide strong evidence that the AML 2 was benzene-related, correct? 3 A. It would be more probable than not, 4 in my opinion. 5 Q. Would you even go so far as to say 6 it would be strong evidence that it would be -7 A. It would be more probable than not. 8 It would be more likely than not. 9 Q. All right. Let me ask you this: 10 Have you testified before that if somebody had 11 sufficient exposure to benzene and developed AML 12 and then his chromosomal analysis showed a 13 deletion of chromosome 5 or 7, that that would 14 be strong evidence that the AML was benzene15 related? 16 A. Those would be sufficient criteria 17 for me to reach a conclusion that it is more 18 likely than not that that AML was associated 19 with exposure to benzene. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (227 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. Do you remember testifying in a case 21 called Betsy Lakie versus Smith Kline Beecham 22 back in April 12, 1996, sir? 23 A. I don't remember testifying in that 24 case. I think I gave a deposition in that case. 25 I don't recall testifying. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (228 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 115 1 Q. Testifying in a deposition, took 2 place in Denver, Colorado? 3 A. I believe so. 4 Q. If you'll read along with me. It 5 says here, "If you saw an individual with one of 6 these deletions you've just described with AML 7 and there was evidence of benzene exposure, 8 would your opinion, given the simple 9 parameters -- given those simple parameters, be 10 more probably than not that it was caused by the 11 benzene exposure?" 12 I think your answer, if I read it 13 correctly, is, "If there was evidence of a 14 significant chronic benzene exposure, and you 15 have AML that with respect to its presentation 16 and criteria fits the category of a secondary 17 AML, the presence of a clonal lesion of 5q or 518 would provide fairly strong evidence that there 19 was a potential relationship." Did I read that file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (229 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 correctly? 21 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 22 the question. 23 A. Yes, you read this correctly. 24 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Do you agree with 25 your statement there that you made in that file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (230 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 116 1 deposition back in 1996? 2 A. Yes, and that's what I've just said. 3 Q. Let me show you what we've marked as 4 Exhibit 6 to your deposition. I will represent 5 to you that those are certain medical records of 6 Oliver McCarty that I pulled. I know I've seen 7 some of those in your deposition or your case 8 notebook here. Do you recognize the document 9 that we've marked as part of Exhibit 6 to your 10 deposition from Mr. McCarty's medical records? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. First page of that is Dr. Jay 13 Schachner's records. Dr. Jay Schachner is a 14 cancer specialist, oncologist. You are aware of 15 that, correct? 16 A. I believe so, yes. 17 Q. He states on March 26th of '03 -- he 18 describes the problems or his diagnoses of 19 Mr. McCarty as, No. 1, meylodysplastic syndrome. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (231 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 You've told us that could be related to benzene, 21 correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. The next one was preleukemia 24 associated with pancytopenia. You told us 25 pancytopenia is another condition of the blood file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (232 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 117 1 that can be related to benzene, correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. If you turn to the next page, it's 4 the April 3rd entry for Oliver McCarty's 5 clinical note of Dr. Jay Schachner. It states, 6 "Problems: Refractory anemia with excess blasts 7 and transformation to AML." Do you see that? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. He's saying that his myelodysplastic 10 syndrome has transformed into AML, correct? 11 A. He says it is transforming into AML. 12 That is -- that is technically a diagnosis of 13 RAEB-2, refractory anemia with excess blasts 2, 14 which is associated with a numerical increase in 15 the blast cell count in excess of 9 percent. 16 Q. Well, you said -17 A. So that's a -18 Q. Okay. I don't mean to interrupt 19 you. I'm sorry. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (233 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. However, that's inconsistent with 21 what he describes, which has been one of -22 which I don't think is significant with respect 23 to ultimately diagnosis of his disease, but 24 it's -- the description is inconsistent with the 25 laboratory results. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (234 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 118 1 Q. Well, let me ask you, do you dispute 2 Dr. Jay Schachner's diagnosis, the treating 3 physician for Mr. McCarty, who is a cancer 4 specialist? Do you dispute his diagnosis of 5 refractory anemia with excess blasts and 6 transformation to AML? 7 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 8 question. 9 A. No. I believe -- I don't dispute 10 his diagnosis. I believe there are 11 inconsistencies between his description and the 12 laboratory, is all. 13 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Let me object to the 14 nonresponsive portions of the answer after "no." 15 Next document is a page No. 49. It is the 16 Chromosome Analysis, Bone Marrow report. Do you 17 see that? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And the findings indicate that there file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (235 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 is deletion of chromosome 5, correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And also in the arm, 5q 31 and q 35, 23 correct? 24 A. Yes. That's the specific region 25 that's deleted. It's usually an interstitial file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (236 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 119 1 deletion. 2 Q. That is consistent with the 3 publication and the theories being put forth in 4 the toxicology book that we saw as Exhibit 5 and 5 your prior testimony that this is evidence that 6 strong -- or fairly strong evidence that his 7 acute myelogenous leukemia is related to 8 exposure to benzene, correct? 9 A. This particular finding is 10 consistent with an AML associated with chronic 11 exposure to benzene. There are other findings 12 that are associated with his leukemia that are 13 inconsistent. So this is one finding that is 14 consistent. There are others that are not. 15 Q. Let me object to the nonresponsive 16 portions of the answer. What diagnosis and what 17 condition did Mr. McCarty have, in your opinion, 18 and that you say as someone who has never seen 19 Mr. McCarty or treated him, that is inconsistent file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (237 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 with exposure to benzene? 21 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 22 the question. 23 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) As you say. 24 MR. SCOTT: Same objection. 25 A. Refractory anemia that's associated file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (238 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 120 1 with ring sideroblasts has to my knowledge not 2 been associated with exposure to benzene, and in 3 fact that is described in his records. So 4 within the context of -- or within the overall 5 data that we have available, there are features 6 of his disease that are consistent or would be 7 consistent with a benzene-induced leukemia, if 8 in fact he had sufficient exposure to benzene, 9 and there are others that are not consistent or 10 have not been reported associated with benzene. 11 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Well, you know he 12 ends up having AML with a loss of chromosome 5, 13 correct? 14 A. I believe -- I don't -- I believe 15 that he developed refractory anemia with excess 16 blasts and that refractory anemia with excess 17 blasts are RAEB-2. The distinction between 18 RAEB-2 and acute myelogenous, myeloid leukemia 19 is moot. These are basically the same disease file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (239 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 process. So the point at which he develops one 21 and no longer has the other is not clinically or 22 scientifically important with respect to the 23 severity of his disease, his prognosis, or 24 potential causation. 25 I believe that there are some -- file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (240 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 121 1 there are some discrepancies between the report 2 and the medical record that make it difficult 3 for me to differentiate on the basis of the 4 reports precisely what disease he had at what 5 time. I don't think these are significant with 6 respect to my conclusions, but there are some 7 discrepancies. 8 Q. All right. In your opinion, would 9 you conclude that if Mr. McCarty had benzene 10 exposures like his coworkers and that he has 11 testified or sworn that he had due to the type 12 of disease, leukemia he had, AML and the 13 deletion of the chromosome 5, that his exposures 14 would have been at least a contributing factor 15 to his disease? 16 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 17 the question. 18 A. My opinion is based upon the -- both 19 an analysis of the potential exposure file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (241 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Mr. McCarty had and the presentation of his 21 disease. If in fact he had sufficient exposure 22 to reach a conclusion of an association based on 23 the literature, I would be quite surprised at 24 the presence -- in fact I would find it 25 remarkable that in fact his pathology report file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (242 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 122 1 includes significant percent of ring 2 sideroblast. That is a finding that has not 3 been reported in the literature, to my 4 knowledge, associated with an AML or an MDS 5 associated with benzene exposure. So my opinion 6 with respect to the likelihood that 7 Mr. McCarty's disease is associated with 8 exposure to benzene is based on the basis of the 9 quantitative exposure assessment and my review 10 of his overall pathology report. 11 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Let me object to 12 responsiveness. Can you point to me one 13 diagnostic study or exam that says that his 14 diagnosis, his medical diagnosis by any of his 15 doctors, was refractory anemia with ring 16 sideroblasts? 17 A. Whether or not it was refractory 18 anemia with ring sideroblasts is dependent on a 19 specific numerical count, which is not provided. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (243 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 What there is, is a reference to the presence of 21 multiple ring sideroblasts. So I am saying that 22 based upon the assessment -- my assessment of 23 these reports, I see features of his disease 24 that would be consistent with exposure to 25 benzene, given evidence of sufficient exposure, file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (244 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 123 1 and there are features that are not consistent, 2 and this is one of them. The presence of a 3 chromosome aberration involving 5q 31 clonal 4 aberration would be consistent with an AML 5 associated with exposure to benzene. The 6 presence of ring sideroblasts is not. 7 Q. Let me object to responsiveness. My 8 question to you, sir, is, can you show me and a 9 the jury, pull out one medical record of all 10 these significant records that you've already 11 pulled and went through that says Mr. McCarty 12 had a diagnosis of refractory anemia with ring 13 sideroblasts? 14 A. No, I can't. Refractory anemia with 15 ring sideroblasts would in -- if it progressed 16 in course, develop into refractory anemia with 17 excess blasts. There is no way for me to 18 conclude, in the absence of a quantitative 19 numerical count of ring sideroblasts, to file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (245 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 conclude that in fact that was his disease. But 21 the presence of ring sideroblasts I do find is a 22 significant factor. 23 Q. Let me object to the responsiveness 24 as to everything after, "No, I cannot." The 25 Bone Marrow Morphology, which is the next file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (246 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 124 1 document, what was the diagnosis on that, sir? 2 A. Myelodysplastic syndromes -- okay. 3 Class C. "Evolving acute myeloid anemia cannot 4 be categorically excluded." 5 Q. That's the comment. What's the 6 diagnosis right above it? 7 A. "Finding consistent with refractory 8 anemia with excess blasts (17%) (RAEB-2 by WHO 9 scheme)." 10 Q. Do you have any reason to dispute 11 that diagnosis? 12 A. No. 13 Q. The next document is a document from 14 M.D. Anderson that's dated April 17, 2003, with 15 Dr. Charles A. Koller being the physician. Do 16 you know him? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Do you know anything about the 19 reputation for M.D. Anderson? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (247 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. Certainly. 21 Q. What is it? 22 A. M.D. Anderson is a prominent, world23 class cancer center. 24 Q. In your opinion, are there any 25 cancer centers that are more prominent or have file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (248 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 125 1 better reputations in the United States than 2 M.D. Anderson? 3 A. I think there are plenty of 4 competent, reliable cancer centers with very 5 good and excellent reputations. M.D. Anderson 6 is in the top tier of cancer centers in the 7 United States. 8 Q. Dr. Koller's impression and 9 diagnosis of Mr. McCarty when he went to see 10 him, right there, No. 1, acute myelogenous 11 leukemia. Do you see that? 12 A. I'm sorry; I'm trying to follow with 13 you. 14 Q. It says "impression" right down 15 here. 16 A. Are we on the same page? 17 Q. Should be page 73. Let me see if I 18 can find that for you. 19 A. My glasses need replacement. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (249 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. Dr. Koller's impression was that 21 Mr. McCarty had acute myelogenous leukemia. Do 22 you see that? 23 A. Um-hum. 24 Q. And in fact he told him that he had 25 acute myelogenous leukemia. Do you see that? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (250 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 126 1 A. Um-hum. 2 Q. Do you have any reason to dispute 3 Dr. Koller at M.D. Anderson's diagnosis that 4 Mr. McCarty had acute myelogenous leukemia? 5 A. No. If you notice the date on this, 6 it's 4/17. The initial date is earlier in the 7 month. There is no inconsistency between a 8 diagnosis of RAEB-2 at the beginning of the 9 month, earlier in the month, and a diagnosis of 10 acute myelogenous leukemia later in the month. 11 It's simply a function of the numerical blast 12 count. I don't see the blast count here, but 13 I'm fully prepared to accept that Dr. Koller's 14 impression of his disease is accurate. 15 Q. Let me object to responsiveness as 16 to everything after his answer "no." I've 17 included into Exhibit 6 the Koller diagnosis, 18 medical. The next page is from M.D. Anderson 19 records, page 92. This is the physician, file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (251 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Dr. Alessandra Ferrajoli. Do you see that? 21 A. I'm sorry. I'm not following. 22 Q. Right there. 23 A. Okay. 24 Q. Do you know Dr. Ferrajoli? 25 A. Not personally, no. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (252 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 127 1 Q. It says reason for admission, do you 2 see up at the top, treatment of AML, recent 3 diagnosis of AML? 4 A. Um-hum. 5 Q. Do you see that, sir? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you have any reason to dispute 8 Dr. Ferrajoli's diagnosis of AML in Mr. McCarty? 9 A. No. 10 Q. All right. If you go to the next 11 page, the discharge diagnosis was refractory 12 acute myelogenous leukemia. Do you see that? 13 A. Um-hum. 14 Q. Is that a yes? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. If you will turn to the next page, I 17 think it's page 102 of Dr. Schachner's records, 18 it's the death summary. I noticed you had a 19 copy of the death summary in your records? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (253 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Indicates that Mr. McCarty 22 unfortunately deteriorated and expired with his 23 family at his bedside on July 25th of '03. Do 24 you see that? 25 A. Yes. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (254 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 128 1 Q. And the final discharge diagnosis 2 was acute myelogenous leukemia; do you see that? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And then the last record is the 5 death certificate for Mr. McCarty, who at age 70 6 dies of acute myelogenous leukemia as recorded 7 by Dr. Schachner on his death certificate. Do 8 you see that? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do you have any reason to dispute 11 Mr. McCarty's diagnosis of AML? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Do you have any reason to dispute 14 that Mr. McCarty's AML caused his death? 15 A. No. 16 Q. You are not a medical doctor. 17 You've told us that, correct? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. You are not -- by law you cannot file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (255 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 practice medicine, correct? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. You have no medical license, 23 correct? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. You've never attended medical school file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (256 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 129 1 and went through the rigorous training and 2 courses that medical students who get their M.D. 3 go through, correct? 4 A. I've attended medical school, but I 5 did not obtain an M.D. 6 Q. You didn't take all the courses that 7 the M.D.s have to take to get there or you would 8 have gotten your M.D., correct? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. And because you don't have a medical 11 license, you cannot render medical pathological 12 diagnoses to a patient, correct? 13 A. That's correct. That's correct. 14 Q. And you have no reason, as you've 15 told us, to dispute the diagnosis of M.D. 16 Anderson or Dr. Jay Schachner with regard to the 17 disease Mr. Schachner (sic) suffered and died 18 from, correct? 19 A. I have no reason to dispute the file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (257 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 diagnosis rendered by M.D. Anderson. 21 Q. So I take that you would dispute the 22 diagnosis rendered by Dr. Jay Schachner for some 23 reason; is that what you are saying? 24 A. I simply am saying that there are 25 descriptions in his report that don't comport file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (258 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 130 1 with the pathology report, but I believe that 2 his conclusion with respect to refractory anemia 3 with excess blasts transforming into AML was 4 correct. 5 Q. All right. So any differences you 6 have in what his records would have said from 7 one day to the next as he had his hands on and 8 treating Mr. McCarty you believe are 9 insignificant; is that right? 10 A. With respect to the diagnosis of his 11 disease, I believe they are insignificant. 12 Q. All right. Is there any 13 significance in the differences and the records 14 that you say exist in your opinions? 15 A. With respect to Mr. McCarty, no. 16 They would be very significant in other cases. 17 But in this particular case, based on all the 18 information I have, no. 19 Q. And so we know that Mr. McCarty had file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (259 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 a disease process, meylodysplastic syndrome that 21 transformed into AML, and he has a loss or 22 deletion of chromosome 5. If he was exposed to 23 benzene like his coworkers said he was, would it 24 be your opinion that that exposure to benzene 25 was a contributing factor to his development of file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (260 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 131 1 AML and his death? 2 A. I can't say that based on the 3 information that I reviewed in this case. There 4 are other issues that are important in reaching 5 the conclusion, and those are not -- those are 6 not enough to reach that conclusion. 7 Q. Can you rule out benzene as a cause 8 of Mr. McCarty's AML and death? 9 A. No, I cannot. 10 Q. I don't have any further questions 11 at this time. I will have some after we take 12 our lunch break, but why don't we take our lunch 13 break now. 14 MR. SCOTT: I was going to say if 15 you are done, I can get done in 20 minutes, but 16 if not, let's come back. 17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 18 1:23 p.m. and we are now off the record. 19 (A lunch break was taken.) file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (261 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 21 approximately 2:30 p.m. and we are back on the 22 record. 23 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) All right. Sir, we 24 are back on the record after lunch. Can you 25 show me the reference in the medical records to file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (262 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 132 1 the ring sideroblasts that you were referring to 2 earlier? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. All right. This is from the bone 5 marrow morphology that's dated, report date of 6 March 8, 2003. All right. Is there any other 7 reference to ring sideroblasts in your medical 8 records that you reviewed or that you found and 9 thought were significant? 10 A. I believe that's it. 11 Q. If we could go back and talk about 12 that. That's also one of the records that we 13 put in Exhibit 6, I believe. We'll look at 14 yours. Page 044 in Exhibit 1 of your notebook. 15 A. 043, I believe. 16 Q. Okay. That's what I thought. Page 17 43 on my records in Exhibit 6, and it's also 18 page 43 in your records, and you've also written 19 some handwritten notes out beside? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (263 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What do those notes say? 22 A. It says 15 percent, question mark, 23 RARS, R-A-R-S, arrow, RAEB. 24 Q. Where do you get the 15 percent 25 refractory anemia with ring sideroblasts and the file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (264 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 133 1 RAEB? 2 A. RAEB is what he's diagnosed as. 3 Q. All right. 4 A. I'm asking the question, what is the 5 percentage of ring sideroblasts, because it 6 doesn't say. 15 percent is the arbitrary number 7 that defines refractory anemia with ring 8 sideroblasts. 9 Q. And people who diagnose -10 pathologists and people who read these bone 11 marrow morphologies, they realize that, don't 12 they? 13 A. I don't know. I would assume they 14 do, but most reports that I've seen or would 15 generate would specifically list the number of 16 ring sideroblasts if in fact you noted there 17 were multiple ring sideroblasts. 18 Q. Well, anyway, this is the hemo -19 hemic (phonetic) pathologist, what is that? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (265 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. Hematopathologist is a pathologist 21 who specialized in the diagnosis of 22 hematopoietic diseases. 23 Q. Are you a hematopoologist 24 (phonetic) -- let me see if I can back up and 25 say it. Are you a hematopathologist? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (266 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 134 1 A. No. 2 Q. And we've got Dr. Joon S. Lee, M.D., 3 who is reading the bone marrow morphology. How 4 do they do that? Do they put it under a 5 microscope and read a slide? 6 A. They put in under a microscope and 7 use an iron stain, and they would look at the 8 smear and look at it in a nonquantitative way, 9 and then they would also typically enumerate the 10 number of ring sideroblasts. 11 Q. In any event, even though the iron 12 stain reflects ring sideroblasts, the diagnosis 13 that they come up with is refractory anemia with 14 excess blasts, 17 percent, correct? 15 A. Yes. Those are not inconsistent. 16 Q. Well, what you are saying is that 17 you have a problem; you don't know if there is a 18 ring -- refractory anemia with ring 19 sideroblasts, and that because of the ring file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (267 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 sideroblasts, that prevents you from saying that 21 Mr. McCarty's AML with a loss of his chromosome 22 5 was a benzene-related AML; is that correct? 23 A. No, I don't think that's a correct 24 characterization of my testimony. My opinion is 25 that the presence of ring sideroblasts is not a file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (268 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 135 1 finding that's reported in previous described 2 cases of benzene-associated leukemia or 3 myelodysplastic syndrome in the literature. A 4 diagnosis of refractory anemia with ring 5 sideroblasts requires that there be 15 percent 6 ring sideroblasts, which is a significant 7 number, a large number. If there are less, it's 8 still a remarkable finding to me that it is 9 present. So in the absence of any other 10 information, my opinion, based on this, is this 11 is not -- this -- this specific finding is not 12 consistent with literature associated with 13 hematopoietic disease associated with benzene. 14 Q. When you say this specific finding, 15 you are talking about under iron stain where it 16 says ring sideroblasts, correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. That's the specific finding you are 19 talking about? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (269 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And even though they found it -22 there is a diagnosis for refractory anemia with 23 ring sideroblasts, correct? 24 A. Yes, it requires 15 percent of ring 25 sideroblasts. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (270 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 136 1 Q. And this pathologist who read this 2 says -- they don't put in the diagnosis 3 refractory anemia with ring sideroblasts; they 4 put in refractory anemia with excess blasts, 5 correct? 6 A. Yes, and there's a perfectly logical 7 reason for that, and that's because RAEB-2 8 supersedes refractory anemia. So the diagnosis 9 of RAEB-2 based on 17 percent blasts obviates 10 the initial diagnosis. 11 Q. Do you dispute the diagnosis that 12 Dr. Joon Lee came up with there? 13 A. No, I don't. 14 Q. Let me just ask it this way. If it 15 weren't for this one mention of sideroblasts in 16 this one record, would you have any hesitancy in 17 saying that Mr. McCarty's benzene -- I mean, 18 acute myelogenous leukemia with his loss of 19 chromosome 5 is related to benzene exposure? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (271 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. Yes. There is no quantitative 21 evidence that I've seen in the record to 22 indicate that he had substantial benzene 23 exposure, and the latency between his last 24 opportunity for exposure and the presentation of 25 his disease is 35 years, which is way beyond the file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (272 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 137 1 latency that is reported in the quantitative 2 epidemiology literature. 3 Q. Let me object to the 4 nonresponsiveness of the answer. If it -- the 5 loss of chromosome 5 and the fact that he had 6 AML, that is indicative to you as strong 7 evidence that it was a toxic exposure that 8 caused his leukemia, correct? 9 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 10 the question. 11 A. It is not -- it is not in and of 12 itself diagnostic of a secondary leukemia. 13 There are many acute myelogenous leukemias that 14 present and are characterized as de novo that 15 present with minus 5. There is an increased 16 frequency of minus 5 and/or minus 7 in AMLs that 17 develop secondary, clearly associated with 18 exposure to alkylating chemotherapy agents and 19 most probably associated with benzene. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (273 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 That in and of itself does not 21 provide a diagnosis -- evidence all by itself 22 that an individual's AML developed as a 23 consequence of benzene exposure. It's one of 24 the factors that has to be taken into account, 25 along with quantitative exposure and/or exposure file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (274 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 138 1 assessment, issues such as latency, and the 2 relationship and temporal relationship between 3 the presentation of disease and the cessation of 4 exposure, as well as other characteristics in 5 the presentation and diagnosis of the disease. 6 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Let me object again 7 to the nonresponsive portion of the answer. My 8 question was simply, that is strong evidence 9 that the AML is toxic-induced AML and it's not 10 just -- in terms of probability you even report 11 yourself that it's between 76 and somewhere 12 90 percent of the time that when there is an AML 13 that has those chromosomal damage, the loss or 14 deletion of 5 or 7, that you can trace it back 15 to a toxic substance, correct? 16 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 17 question. 18 A. No, and that's not my testimony. 19 The fact of the matter is approximately file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (275 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 12 percent -- 12 to 15 percent of AMLs presented 21 in this country that are described as de novo 22 present with clonal aberrations involving 5 23 and/or 7. If you have an AML that presents 24 secondary to previous chemotherapy for other 25 neoplastic diseases, the frequency of file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (276 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 139 1 aberrations involving 5 or 7 goes much higher 2 and is present at levels between two-thirds and 3 90-some-odd percent. That's the frequency of 4 this lesion in cases where you've got documented 5 exposure to alkylating agents at concentrations 6 that produce very frank bone marrow damage and 7 go on to develop MDS or AML. That's separate 8 and distinct from the incidence of this 9 chromosome aberration in the general population 10 and in AMLs that are de novo. 11 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) You say here even in 12 your studies, in your prior depositions and in 13 the toxicology treatise that we've got here 14 marked as Exhibit No. 5 to your deposition, that 15 it -- not only does it occur with people who 16 have had chemotherapy with alkylating agents, 17 but it's -- these same changes have been 18 observed in AML with patients occupationally 19 exposed to benzene. That's a true statement; file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (277 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 You've told me that, correct? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. Is there any incidence or number 23 difference in the frequency that you see people 24 with occupational benzene exposures developing 25 AMLs with loss of 5 or 7 as opposed to people file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (278 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 140 1 developing AMLs secondary to chemotherapy with a 2 loss of 5 or 7? 3 A. To the extent that we have 4 literature describing cytogenetic aberrations 5 associated with exposure to benzene, and this 6 goes back to case-controlled studies that have 7 been published in the 1980s and 1990s, the 8 frequency of aberrations is less in those 9 associated with benzene than in the 10 chemotherapeutic literature, but you have to -11 you have to keep in mind that the incidence -12 individuals who are treated with chemotherapy, 13 the exposures are clearly demonstrable. They 14 are quantitative because we know what the dose 15 is the individuals have received. We can define 16 precisely what the natural history of that 17 disease is. And the frequency of aberrations 18 involving 5 or 7 in those individuals is 19 extremely high, and studies have repeatedly file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (279 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 demonstrated that to be the case. 21 That doesn't mean that everyone who 22 present with an AML has had previous 23 chemotherapy or that they have been exposed to 24 benzene that's associated with the development 25 of their disease. There is a difference between file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (280 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 141 1 the frequency, the relative frequency of these 2 aberrations in patients who have received 3 chemotherapy and patients who have not. And 4 that's the significant difference. 5 This aberration is more frequently 6 found in individuals who develop AML secondary 7 to exposure to chemotherapeutic agents, and the 8 evidence associated with benzene also suggests 9 that that relationship to some extent holds for 10 those individuals as well. But there are many 11 people who present with AML that have 12 involvement in chromosomes 5 and/or 7 for which 13 there is no demonstrable evidence that they had 14 any significant exposure to benzene or 15 chemotherapeutic agents. 16 Q. Let me object to responsiveness. 17 That was my question is, what is the difference 18 in the number of percentage of people? You said 19 it's less. Less by how much? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (281 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. We -- I can't put a quantitative 21 number on it because we have much more 22 compelling quantitative data on patients 23 receiving chemotherapy than we do patients who 24 have been previously chronically exposed to high 25 concentrations of benzene. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (282 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 142 1 Q. If you can't put a quantitative 2 number on it, then you really can't say that 3 it's less, can you? 4 A. I think it's more probable than not 5 that AMLs associated or that have 5 and/or 7 are 6 among those leukemias that benzene -- chronic 7 exposure to benzene is associated with. I can't 8 tell you what number less than those that are 9 associated with alkylating chemotherapy is. 10 There is no basis for basically rendering an 11 opinion on a negative. 12 Q. You can't tell me the number, 13 correct, for benzene -14 A. I can't -- I can't -- I can't render 15 an opinion on a negative finding in general. 16 That's not something scientists can do. 17 Q. Well, it's not a negative finding. 18 You know, here you are rendering it for people 19 with chemotherapeutic agents who develop AML and file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (283 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 the loss of 5 or 7. What I'm saying is you 21 can't tell me what the number is below that for 22 benzene because you don't know, and are there 23 any studies that support your opinion that it's 24 less? 25 A. Yes. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (284 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 143 1 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 2 the question. 3 A. Yes, certainly. 4 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) What studies? 5 A. The same studies that support my 6 opinion that in fact 5 and 7 are increased in 7 frequency in cases of AML associated with 8 benzene exposure. I have repeatedly testified 9 to that, to those studies. I published on those 10 studies. It is my opinion here today, and it 11 was my opinion ten years ago, that the frequency 12 of clonal aberrations involving 5 or 7 in AMLs 13 associated with previous benzene exposure is 14 more probably than not increased relative to the 15 frequency in the general population. I can't 16 say that it's the same frequency as associated 17 with chemotherapeutics. We don't know that. 18 Q. That's what -- that's all I'm asking 19 you is, I thought you told me earlier you file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (285 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 thought it was less, but you can't put a 21 quantitative number on it? 22 A. I'm saying exactly the same thing. 23 I cannot provide you with a quantitative 24 estimate of what that frequency is based upon 25 the world literature. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (286 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 144 1 Q. All right. And that's my next 2 question. Is there any literature that would 3 support your opinion that it's less in terms of 4 quantitative -- a quantitative number? 5 A. The actual frequency in studies 6 where in fact the AML has been associated with 7 previous benzene exposure do not rise to the 8 same number that the chemotherapeutic -9 alkylating chemotherapeutic literature does. 10 That's a fact. 11 Q. Is that just what your assumption 12 is, or do you have hard scientific data or 13 studies that back you up when you say that? 14 A. I have the existing case-control 15 quantitative epidemiologic literature associated 16 with -17 (The reporter interrupted.) 18 A. Associated with benzene. 19 MR. SCOTT: Cytogenetic aberrations file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (287 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 and benzene. That is a good point about slowing 21 down if we can. Some of this is a little dense. 22 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Well, you are saying 23 you've got those studies, and those studies show 24 that when there is exposure to benzene, it 25 causes a loss of the chromosome 5 or 7, that it file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (288 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 145 1 would be with less regularity or frequency than 2 chemotherapy-induced damage to 5 or 7. What in 3 those studies is the quantitative number that 4 they use related to benzene? 5 A. You know, as I sit here right now, I 6 can't give you a number because I would not -- I 7 don't believe that those studies allow me to 8 provide or to render an opinion on the precise 9 number. I've testified and I've repeatedly said 10 in the literature that the studies that exist 11 suggest there is an increased frequency of those 12 aberrations in AML associated with benzene. I 13 cannot tell you exactly what the number is. 14 It's been my opinion and it's 15 certainly been my hypothesis for many years that 16 the alkylating chemotherapeutic literature 17 informs us with respect to plausible mechanisms 18 that may be involved in the development of AML 19 from benzene, and it would be consistent that file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (289 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 you would see an increase. I've said that many 21 times. That's still my opinion today. 22 Q. Okay. Let me object to 23 responsiveness. You say you can't say an exact 24 number with regard to benzene-induced damage to 25 5 or 7, but is there a study that has a number file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (290 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 146 1 in it like these studies with chemotherapeutic 2 agents, you know, saying that you see that with 3 75 to 90 percent of the cases? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. There are studies that show an 7 increased frequency. The problem with the 8 existing studies is where you've got very 9 reliable quantitative cytogenetic analysis of 10 clonal lesions, you have far less reliable 11 exposure data related to the specificity of the 12 exposure to benzene. In the studies where 13 you've got much higher -- where you have a much 14 more reliable quantitative estimate of benzene 15 exposure, you have far less reliable, if totally 16 unreliable, cytogenetic data. 17 Q. You have not reviewed any of the 18 slides or the pathology for Mr. McCarty, 19 correct? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (291 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. No, I have not. 21 Q. Have you even requested it? 22 A. No. 23 MR. SCOTT: Darren, let me say, it's 24 not particularly important here, but we've been 25 trying to get pathology from M.D. Anderson for file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (292 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 147 1 some time, and it took us a period of time to 2 get an agreement with you all about what we 3 could ask for and how. And at one point 4 Anderson told us they found some blocks, and now 5 they can't seem to find them, but we have been 6 continuing our efforts to get that material. 7 MR. BROWN: Object to sidebar. 8 MR. BARNWELL: We have had an 9 agreement in place for several months that would 10 allow you guys chain of custody. 11 MR. SCOTT: Absolutely, and I think 12 there were some posttreatment slides that we got 13 that were forwarded to Dr. Nadelson. 14 MR. BROWN: Same objection. 15 MR. SCOTT: I don't mean it for the 16 record. 17 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Well, I mean, because 18 it's not insignificant. The significance is you 19 haven't even asked for them because you didn't file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (293 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 plan on using those, correct? 21 A. No, that's not true. Actually I 22 have been informed by Mr. Scott that they didn't 23 have them available, which is why I haven't 24 asked for them. At this particular point in 25 time I would be happy to look at the smears if file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (294 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 148 1 in fact they were presented to me. I think that 2 it would be informative for me to look at them, 3 but I don't think that at this point it's 4 going -- that those slides are likely to change 5 my opinion based upon the reports and the 6 information that I have. 7 Q. But bottom line is you never asked 8 for them and you've been working on this case 9 since February, correct? 10 A. I have received the material in this 11 case over the course of the last several months. 12 I agreed to render an opinion on this case in 13 February. I have not been working consistently 14 on this case since February. I've been working 15 on this case for approximately the last month. 16 Q. Let me object to responsiveness. 17 You've been hired in this case since February, 18 and even up to today you've never asked for the 19 slides that you are referring to correct? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (295 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. Is it your opinion, sir, that in 22 order for there to be an AML that would be 23 benzene-related that there would always be a 24 loss or deletion of chromosome 5 or 7? 25 A. No. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (296 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 149 1 Q. That doesn't have to be necessary; 2 you don't have to see a loss or deletion in 5 or 3 7 in order for somebody to say this benzene -4 this AML is benzene-related, correct? 5 A. That's correct. That's never been 6 my opinion. 7 Q. Likewise a person doesn't have to 8 have a deletion of both 5 and 7 before one can 9 opine that his AML is benzene-related, correct? 10 A. I don't think we have enough 11 information to conclude that. I don't think we 12 have enough information to render a -- I don't 13 have enough information to render an informed 14 opinion on that. 15 Q. Well, you have testified in the past 16 that if you have a loss of 5 or if you have a 17 loss of 7, that could be a benzene-related 18 leukemia, correct? 19 A. Based upon the available data that file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (297 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 we have, the literature that's available, that's 21 correct. 22 Q. All right. Are there any other 23 chromosomes whose loss or deletion has been 24 associated with a toxic exposure? 25 A. There are other -- there are other file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (298 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 150 1 abnormalities that are found with equal 2 frequency in both de novo and in cases for which 3 there's documented exposure. There are also 4 recurring abnormalities that have been variously 5 hypothesized to be associated with exposure to 6 alkylating agents. There are specific 7 translocations that have been associated with 8 exposure to a specific class of alkylating -9 actually, classic chemotherapeutic agents known 10 as topoisomerase inhibitors. 11 Q. Well, can you tell me in terms of 12 loss or deletion of other chromosomes besides 5 13 and 7, if any, that would be associated with 14 potential benzene-induced AML? 15 A. I wouldn't be at all surprised to 16 find a case of documented benzene exposure in 17 the development of an AML that involves trisomy 18 8, but trisomy 8 occurs with equal or greater 19 frequency in spontaneous AMLs as well, so it file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (299 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 doesn't provide any kind of distinguishing 21 feature in evaluating the disease and potential 22 causation by benzene. 23 Q. How about chromosome 11? 24 A. I don't believe that the data on 25 chromosome 11 is sufficient to reach a file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (300 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 151 1 conclusion associated with exposure to benzene. 2 Q. Have you seen that hypothesized? 3 A. I've seen -- I've seen that 4 hypothesized. I've seen many hypotheses with 5 respect to cytogenetic aberrations in benzene, 6 including my own, but I don't believe that the 7 quantitative literature supports that 8 conclusion. 9 Q. How about the loss of the Y 10 chromosome? 11 A. No. Minus Y is extremely 12 nonspecific. It can be associated with a clonal 13 lesion. It can be associated with age. It's 14 often found in AMLs associated with elderly 15 individuals, and the question is always what 16 happened first: the development of AML or the 17 loss of -- incidental loss of chromosome Y. It 18 can be indicative of a clonal lesion in general, 19 which would be any neoplastic condition, or it file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (301 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 can simply be a function of age and not related 21 to disease. 22 Q. You talked a little bit earlier -23 talked a lot earlier about the quantitative 24 assessment was provided to you by Mr. Plisko or 25 Mark Plisko. Are you familiar with the file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (302 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 152 1 scientific methodology that was used by 2 Mr. Plisko in his alleged exposure assessment 3 that he provided to you? 4 A. In terms of the specific 5 mathematical model that he used, no. 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Time is 7 approximately 2:55 p.m. and we are now off the 8 record. 9 The time is approximately 2:57 p.m. 10 and we are back on the record. 11 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Since you haven't 12 been a doctor -- or since you are not a medical 13 doctor, you've never had to tell a patient that 14 he has cancer or leukemia, correct? 15 A. That's not true. I have. 16 Q. You've been the one to tell a person 17 he has cancer or leukemia even though you were 18 not his doctor? 19 A. Yes. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (303 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. Difficult thing to do, isn't it? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Had to look into the eyes of another 23 human being and give him the bad news that they 24 had cancer and that if it's a cancer like 25 leukemia, they are not going to be around long, file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (304 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 153 1 correct? 2 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 3 the question. 4 A. It's very possible. 5 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Do you know what a 6 person goes through when they have a terrible 7 disease like acute myelogenous leukemia? 8 A. Sir, my laboratory in Shanghai 9 routinely diagnoses leukemias and lymphomas on a 10 daily basis and provides reports and diagnoses 11 that clarify and/or confirm these diseases in 12 individuals routinely. I'm aware and I 13 understand the nature and the severity of and 14 the seriousness of these diseases. 15 Q. Well, let me object to 16 responsiveness. I understand that your lab does 17 diagnoses, clinic -- I mean research diagnoses 18 of individuals, but you have never had to treat 19 anybody with cancer? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (305 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. No, sir. 21 Q. Have you ever had a family member 22 who has had cancer, died of cancer? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And you know exactly what it is I'm 25 talking about, how difficult of a process it can file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (306 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 154 1 be for a family to have to sit through the 2 months of pain and grief that they -- are 3 associated with somebody who is dying of a 4 cancer like leukemia, correct? 5 A. Absolutely. 6 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 7 the question. 8 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) And dying of leukemia 9 is not an easy or preferred way to go, is it? 10 A. No. It wouldn't be my preferred 11 way. 12 Q. Often AML people just bleed 13 uncontrollably, correct? 14 A. That's one of the adverse 15 consequences that often occurs in AMLs. 16 Q. They are often delirious and have 17 pain, correct? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. And they often end up dying of file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (307 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 sepsis, correct? 21 A. Sepsis is another adverse 22 complication associated with AML. 23 Q. What is sepsis? 24 A. Widespread infection, systemic 25 infection. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (308 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 155 1 Q. And systemic infection of all of 2 their organs, correct? 3 A. Often, yes. 4 Q. It's painful, isn't it? 5 A. Yes, it can be. 6 Q. You saw his death certificate where 7 the immediate cause of death after suffering 8 with AML -- Mr. McCarty finally succumbed to 9 that disease and the sepsis that resulted from 10 it, correct? 11 A. Sepsis -- I believe sepsis was the 12 precipitating cause of death. 13 Q. You've been consulting as an expert 14 for oil companies and chemical companies in 15 litigation involving benzene for, I think we 16 established earlier, about 16 years or so, 17 correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Over those years you've been file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (309 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 involved with benzene issues, legislation, 21 studies, and that type of thing even longer than 22 16 years, correct? 23 A. I've been studying benzene for the 24 better part of 30 years. 25 Q. Then you are, I would assume, aware file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (310 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 156 1 that benzene was reported to cause fatal 2 diseases of the blood and blood-forming organs 3 as far back as the 1800s, correct? 4 A. There were reports of bone marrow 5 failure and toxicity associated with benzene 6 back at least as far as the late 1800s. 7 Q. I assume that you be aware that 8 benzene was reported being associated with and 9 causing leukemia as far back as 1928, correct? 10 A. There were hypotheses and opinions, 11 observations made by individuals as far back as 12 the -- certainly the late 1920s, early 1930s. 13 Q. All right. And to the extent that 14 those hypotheses were that benzene can cause 15 leukemia, they turned out to be correct, 16 correct? 17 A. To the -- yes, with the caveat that 18 the -- what was considered and/or understood to 19 be leukemia and/or bone marrow failure at that file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (311 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 time was not what we now consider to be those 21 diseases. There's been a lot of changes over 22 the last 100 years, the last 80 years with 23 respect to our knowledge of both the disease and 24 benzene. 25 Q. I mean, if in 1928 it's being file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (312 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 157 1 reported that benzene causes leukemia, then 2 those who have access to that report would know 3 that benzene can cause fatal diseases, correct? 4 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 5 question. 6 A. Isolated reports don't provide us -7 isolated individual case reports don't provide 8 the scientific community with a -- with proof 9 that in fact there is a causal association 10 between any given etiology and a given disease. 11 In the case of the reports that are usually -12 the cases that were reported in France in 1920 13 and 1929, there is really actually no clear-cut 14 evidence that those individuals were actually 15 exposed solely to benzene. In fact, there's 16 evidence to suggest they were exposed to 17 alkylating radiation as well as benzene and 18 other toxic chemicals. 19 So the fact that we have a given file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (313 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 case report or group of case reports does not 21 give us a quantitative evidence that there is a 22 causal relationship between a given etiology and 23 a given disease. That requires quantitative 24 epidemiology. 25 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) I object to file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (314 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 158 1 responsiveness. You are aware that by 1948 the 2 American Petroleum Institute was reporting that 3 benzene could cause fatal illnesses and was even 4 reporting at that time that there were 5 reasonably well documented instances of the 6 development of leukemia from chronic exposure to 7 benzene -8 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 9 question. 10 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) -- correct? 11 A. My recollection of the reports that 12 I've seen and the statements that I've seen by 13 American Petroleum Institute or their 14 representatives raise concern over the 15 possibility and the potential of benzene to 16 cause blood diseases. 17 Q. Well, I guess let me object again to 18 the responsiveness. My question was, Were you 19 aware that in 1948 API, American Petroleum file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (315 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Institute, in its toxicological review for 21 benzene was reporting at that time that there 22 were reasonably well documented instances of the 23 development of leukemia associated with 24 exposure -- chronic exposure to benzene? 25 A. I have -- yes, that's basically what file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (316 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 159 1 I've said. 2 Q. And what is the American Petroleum 3 Institute? 4 A. American Petroleum Institute is a 5 trade organization that membership includes 6 petroleum companies. 7 Q. All right. Companies like Mobil and 8 Exxon and Shell and Gulf, Chevron -- all those 9 companies were members of the American Petroleum 10 Institute back in the 1940s; were you aware of 11 that? 12 A. I believe so. 13 Q. I'm showing you the API 14 toxicological review for benzene, 1948. You've 15 seen that document before, haven't you, sir? 16 A. Yes, I have. 17 Q. Numerous times; would that be 18 correct? 19 A. Yes. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (317 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. Did you know Philip Drinker? 21 A. No, not personally. 22 Q. You know him to be a reputable 23 professor of the school of medicine at Harvard 24 University back at that time that that report 25 was written, correct? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (318 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 160 1 A. I believe so, yes. 2 Q. And if a doctor with the reputation 3 of Philip Drinker is reporting in 1948 that 4 there are reasonably well documented instances 5 of the development of leukemia from chronic 6 exposure to benzene, he's not just guessing that 7 there might be a connection; he is making a 8 statement that there is some legitimate concern 9 among the members of that profession and there 10 should be of the American Petroleum Institute 11 that benzene can cause leukemia; isn't that 12 right? 13 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 14 question. 15 A. I can't testify to that. I think 16 it's obvious from Professor Drinker's statement 17 that he thought there was legitimate concern. I 18 can't say that on the basis of the opinion or 19 statement of a single professor that in fact file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (319 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 that's the case. That's what in fact 21 quantitative epidemiology and biomedical 22 sciences is all about, proving a relationship 23 that is hypothesized through observation. 24 Professor Drinker made some very salient and 25 significant observations and expressed his file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (320 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 161 1 concern about exposure to benzene, which was 2 extremely well-founded. That doesn't on the 3 basis of his opinion make it so. 4 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Let me object to 5 responsiveness. The fact where he reports there 6 are reasonably well-documented instances of 7 development of benzene -- development of 8 leukemia from chronic exposure to benzene, that 9 would have been information that should have put 10 the companies on notice that benzene could 11 result in a cancerous disease like leukemia? 12 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 13 question. 14 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Don't you agree, sir? 15 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 16 question. 17 A. I think that that's information that 18 should have and did raise concern on the part of 19 the scientific and medical communities and the file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (321 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 industry alike in terms of understanding and 21 studying the potential toxicity of benzene. 22 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) All right. 23 Additionally, he reports in this API document 24 that due to individual susceptibilities, 25 inasmuch as the body develops no tolerance to file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (322 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 162 1 benzene and as there is wide variation in 2 individual susceptibility, it is generally 3 considered that the only absolute safe 4 concentration from benzene is zero. Do you 5 agree with that statement, sir? 6 A. That's what he said. In doing so, 7 he also -- he goes on to say that a limit of 50 8 ppm or less is strongly recommended. So based 9 upon our ability and our understanding of -- our 10 ability to measure benzene, I think Dr. Drinker 11 was roughly equating zero or nothing, which is 12 really toxicologically not a cogent concept, to 13 levels at or below 50 parts per million. 14 Q. Let me object to the responsiveness. 15 My question was, Do you agree that because 16 there's variation in individual susceptibility 17 to exposures to chemicals such as benzene, that 18 the only absolutely safe level of exposure for 19 everybody would be zero? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (323 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. No, I think that's -- that's not 21 been demonstrated in the scientific literature 22 and in fact is an impossible concept. 23 Q. Well, have you testified before that 24 there is -- well, first of all, do you agree 25 that there is no safe level of exposure to file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (324 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 163 1 benzene? 2 A. I don't believe that the scientific 3 and medical literature supports the concept of 4 no threshold or that there is no safe level or 5 level below which there are no demonstrable 6 health effects. 7 Q. Have those opinions that you are 8 expressing right now, have you gained those in 9 the last three years? 10 A. No. I've had them for 20 years. 11 Q. Can you point to a study that says 12 that there is a safe level of exposure to 13 benzene? 14 A. As I said earlier in this 15 deposition, scientists can't prove a negative. 16 We have no scientific basis to conclude that 17 zero is the only safe level. It's a theoretical 18 concept, and I don't think that it is supported 19 by the scientific and medical literature. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (325 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. Is there a level in your mind for 21 benzene exposure, a threshold level at which -22 or below which no one in this world will develop 23 a benzene-related illness? 24 A. I can't -- I can't make a reasonable 25 scientific -- render an opinion to that file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (326 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 164 1 question. I don't believe that there is any 2 data that allows us to draw a conclusion one way 3 or the other below those levels of exposure that 4 have been demonstrated in quantitative studies 5 to be associated with an increased risk. 6 Q. So in your opinion, as I understand 7 what you're saying, there is no threshold level 8 below which exposure is safe for every 9 individual; is that a fair statement? 10 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 11 the question. 12 A. Could you repeat or rephrase that 13 question. 14 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Yes, sir. There is 15 no -- in your opinion there is no threshold 16 level below which exposure to benzene is safe 17 for all people? 18 A. No, that's not my opinion. My 19 opinion is that the scientific and medical file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (327 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 literature does not indicate that there is no 21 safe level of benzene exposure. The scientific 22 and medical literature -- scientists can't prove 23 a negative. What we can do is ascertain in 24 studies at what levels or what conditions of 25 exposure to a chemical such as benzene are file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (328 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 165 1 associated with a significant increase in the 2 incidence of a disease and therefore an 3 increased risk. That's all we can do. 4 Q. Let me object to responsiveness. My 5 question is, Do you have a level that you have 6 in your mind would be your opinion that would -7 if somebody did not exceed that level, that it 8 would be safe for all people? 9 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 10 the question. 11 A. I believe that reliable quantitative 12 epidemiologic studies don't provide an 13 indication of increased risk of acute myeloid 14 leukemia associated with cumulative exposures 15 certainly below 45 parts per million years and 16 on the order of 60 parts per million years. 17 That is the state of the art today. 18 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Let me object to 19 responsiveness. Sir, is it your testimony that file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (329 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 no person in this world will develop benzene21 related leukemias if they do not exceed the 45 22 parts per million years? 23 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 24 the question. 25 A. I'm sorry. There are too many file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (330 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 166 1 negatives in that sentence. 2 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Is it your testimony 3 that no person in this world will develop a 4 benzene-related leukemia so long as they do not 5 exceed the 45 parts per million years 6 quantitation that you just described? 7 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 8 the question. 9 A. No, I can't say that and no 10 responsible scientist would say that. 11 (The reporter interrupted for 12 clarification.) 13 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) That's because every 14 person reacts differently to chemicals; that's 15 the whole concept of individual susceptibility, 16 isn't it? 17 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 18 the question. 19 A. You now have asked me two questions. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (331 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 I believe the first question -- well, actually 21 could you restate that. 22 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Yes, sir. Are you 23 familiar with the concept of individual 24 susceptibility? 25 A. Oh, yeah. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (332 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 167 1 Q. What is that concept? 2 A. Individual susceptibility is that 3 individual variations in individuals, even 4 genetic or environmental, can influence or alter 5 their susceptibility to development of diseases 6 following exposure to individual agents. It is 7 a very well described and understood concept. 8 Q. It's been described and understood 9 in the medical literature for years, correct? 10 A. To the extent that we understand it 11 exists, yes. With respect to specific genetic 12 susceptibility for individual diseases, that's 13 really an area of ongoing research, intense 14 research. 15 Q. Have you ever seen the 1943 Soley 16 document report on benzene to Shell before? 17 A. I don't know whether I have or not. 18 Q. Did you -- have you ever heard of 19 Dr. Mayo Soley? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (333 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. No, I haven't. Not that I recall. 21 Q. Have you ever heard of the 22 University of California Medical School 23 Pharmacological Laboratory? 24 A. I've heard -- I'm not sure which 25 branch of the University of California you are file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (334 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 168 1 talking about. 2 Q. Well, it's 1943, so I don't know how 3 many different branches they would have had back 4 at that time. You can see the data at the 5 bottom. 6 A. San Francisco. I'm not familiar 7 with this specific laboratory. 8 Q. I want to read to you what his 9 report to Shell was on the chronic health 10 hazards of benzene. First of all, you can see 11 here where he mentions chronic poison and some 12 of the diseases that result from exposure to 13 benzene include leukemia, correct? 14 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 15 the question. 16 A. Yes. To the -- whatever that means. 17 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) He is saying 18 leukemia, right? 19 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (335 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 the question. 21 A. The definition and diagnosis of 22 leukemia has changed dramatically since 1943. 23 It's even spelled here l-u-c as opposed to 24 l-u-k. I see that on the page. I don't know 25 what Dr. Soley is specifically referring to. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (336 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 169 1 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Are you saying that 2 the way he spelled it, l-u-c-e-e-m-i-a, that 3 that's not leukemia? 4 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 5 the question. 6 A. I'm not saying that. I'm saying I 7 can't assume what precise disease he is talking 8 about there. 9 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) You've never seen the 10 English variation of the spelling of leukemia? 11 A. That is not current English spelling 12 for leukemia and hasn't been certainly during my 13 career. 14 Q. This is a 1943 document that is 15 mentioning leukemia, and you are not disputing 16 that, are you? 17 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 18 the question. 19 A. No. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (337 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Okay. What I wanted 21 to show you is where he says, "While prolonged 22 exposure to any concentration of benzene is 23 dangerous, there is marked variation in 24 susceptibility of individuals so that some, for 25 unknown reasons, are particularly resistant file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (338 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 170 1 while others are quite susceptible." 2 MR. SCOTT: Object. 3 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) That concept, that's 4 the same concept of individual susceptibility 5 that you are referring to, correct? 6 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 7 the question. 8 A. Yes, I believe I've already said 9 that. 10 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) For that reason you 11 couldn't tell us, nor any other scientist could 12 tell us, how much benzene it takes for any 13 particular individual to be exposed to before 14 that they might develop a disease related to 15 that exposure, correct? 16 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 17 question. 18 A. I don't believe that is the reason 19 we can't prove a negative. I believe that file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (339 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 individual susceptibility is -- is an operating 21 influence in all the studies that have examined 22 quantitative exposure to benzene and 23 demonstrated a relationship between cumulative 24 exposure to benzene at certain levels and an 25 increased risk of AML. Those are the file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (340 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 171 1 individuals who are susceptible to development 2 of the disease. Individuals who are -- many 3 individuals exposed at comparable levels do not 4 develop the disease. So we can assume that the 5 frequency of AML and the risk of AML associated 6 with quantitative exposure to a given level 7 includes those individuals by definition who 8 have increased susceptibility. So I believe 9 that individual susceptibility is a major factor 10 in determining risk of developing a disease such 11 as AML associated with benzene, and they are 12 included in the quantitative studies that we 13 currently have that provide us with information 14 as to that quantitative risk. 15 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) All right. Let me 16 object to responsiveness. Can you tell me, sir, 17 and the jury at what level it took for 18 Mr. McCarty -- or would have taken for 19 Mr. McCarty individually in terms of exposure to file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (341 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 benzene for him to develop leukemia? 21 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 22 question. 23 A. All I can tell you is what I've 24 already testified to, which is the quantitative 25 epidemiology literature does not support an file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (342 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 172 1 increased risk of the development of AML below 2 certainly 45 ppm-years, and most studies on the 3 order of 60 ppm-years. Those are the lowest 4 levels of cumulative exposure that to date have 5 been associated with significant increased risk 6 of AML following benzene exposure. 7 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Object to 8 nonresponsive. My question is, sir, can you 9 tell me and the jury at what level it was 10 required for Mr. McCarty to be exposed to 11 benzene and him develop leukemia? 12 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 13 question. 14 A. I believe I've just given you the 15 best answer I can to that question. 16 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Well, have you ever 17 seen Mr. McCarty's name in any epidemiological 18 study? 19 A. No. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (343 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. Have you ever seen any other 21 individual's name in any epidemiological study? 22 A. I would hope not. 23 Q. All these epidemiological studies do 24 is study population. They cannot tell us at 25 what level any specific individual would develop file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (344 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 173 1 a disease process; isn't that true? 2 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 3 question. 4 A. The quantitative study of 5 populations in epidemiology and quantitative 6 controlled clinical studies is the best and only 7 tool we have with which to ascertain the 8 potential risk of developing a disease 9 associated with a given agent. That is the 10 limits of scientific and medical state of the 11 art that we work within, and as a scientist that 12 is the basis and can be the only basis for my 13 opinion on the quantitative relationship between 14 benzene and the development of acute myeloid 15 leukemia. 16 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) I understand that you 17 are limited in what you can use to formulate 18 your opinions as a toxicologist, but the bottom 19 line answer to my question is, you can't tell a file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (345 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 jury how much benzene exposure it took for 21 Mr. McCarty to develop his leukemia, can you? 22 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 23 question. 24 A. I have seen no data that would allow 25 me to reach a conclusion that in fact file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (346 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 174 1 Mr. McCarty's acute myeloid leukemia was 2 associated with exposure to benzene. 3 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) I mean, it would be 4 possible that an individual could be exposed to 5 high levels of benzene and not develop a 6 disease, correct? 7 A. Yes, definitely. 8 Q. And it's also possible that 9 individuals can be exposed to extremely low 10 levels of benzene and develop a disease, 11 correct? 12 A. Well, we have quantitative data to 13 support the former. We cannot determine the 14 latter based upon scientific quantitative data. 15 We can't prove a negative. 16 Q. Okay. Can't prove it, in other 17 words? 18 A. Can't prove a negative. That's not 19 something that a scientist can do. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (347 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. All right. Were you familiar with 21 Dr. Hine who consulted with Shell concerning 22 toxicology of chemicals? 23 A. I don't know who you are talking 24 about. 25 Q. All right. Was it -- in your file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (348 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 175 1 experience in studying benzene over these last 2 20 to 30 years, have you come to understand that 3 chemical companies and industry often hire 4 consultants to help them assess hazards of the 5 chemicals that they use and make and require 6 their employees to work around? 7 A. Sometimes, yes. 8 Q. And with regard to -- tell me some 9 of the companies who you are familiar with that 10 going on, that type of thing happening in 11 particular with regard to benzene. 12 A. Well, certainly most of the 13 companies -- certainly any of the companies that 14 I've consulted for in the past have been 15 interested in precisely that, which is 16 understanding the nature of my opinions or my -17 or to ask my expertise in evaluating potential 18 hazards associated with in the case of -- in 19 this specific case, benzene. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (349 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. And that type of activity went on 21 and was used by companies in the 1940s, 1950s, 22 correct? 23 A. I've seen reports by individuals who 24 presumably were hired as consultants by 25 companies in the '40s and '50s. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (350 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 176 1 Q. Here is another document I'm going 2 to refer you to. This is a report to Shell 3 Development Company regarding certain problems 4 of environmental cancer in the petroleum 5 industry. Do you see that? 6 A. Yes, it's by Charles Hine. Now I 7 know who Dr. Hine was. 8 Q. How did you know Dr. Hine? 9 A. Dr. Hine was a professor of 10 toxicology and pharmacology at the University 11 of -- if this is the same Dr. Charles Hine that 12 I knew, at the University of California, San 13 Francisco. A grand old man. Many, many, many 14 years ago. We are talking -- I knew him briefly 15 30 years ago. He was retiring at that point. 16 Q. Did you know him to be a consultant 17 of Shell? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Did you know him to be a reputable file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (351 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 and competent toxicologist? 21 A. Yes. I think he was highly 22 respected. Certainly for his day he was highly 23 respected. 24 Q. Let me show you what he has to say 25 about benzene. He says, "In only a relatively file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (352 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 177 1 few instances can the origin of an environmental 2 cancer be traced to a contact with a well3 defined chemical agent possessing established 4 carcinogenic qualities. Among such compounds 5 include arsenic," and the second one is on this 6 list is benzol, correct? 7 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 8 the question. 9 A. What he says is benzol; that's 10 correct. 11 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) That's benzene, isn't 12 it, sir? 13 A. It can be. I would presume he is 14 talking about benzene, but he also could be 15 talking about gasoline, but I think he is 16 talking about benzene. 17 Q. Are you saying back in 1950 that 18 this reputable toxicologist would have been 19 saying it was a well-established carcinogen? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (353 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Gasoline was a well-established carcinogen? 21 A. No. That's why I'm saying -- I'm 22 saying the use of -- specific use of the term 23 benzol most likely relates, pertains to benzene, 24 but I can't -- I can't get inside his mind, but 25 that's what I assume he is saying. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (354 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 178 1 Q. As you read that document, this 2 Dr. Hine who you knew as a competent 3 toxicologist, well respected, is saying in 1950 4 that benzene has well-established carcinogenic 5 characteristics, correct? 6 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 7 the question. 8 A. That's what -- that apparently is 9 what he is saying, yes. 10 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Did you know Allen 11 Dooley from Texaco? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did you know that even in 1954 he 14 was reporting that benzene had a destructive 15 effect on the bone marrow and could cause latent 16 injuries and was even citing to the 1948 API as 17 something that companies should use to help them 18 assess the risks associated with benzene 19 exposure? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (355 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 21 question. 22 A. As I said, I don't know Dr. Dooley. 23 I don't know of him. However, the statement 24 that in fact benzene causes bone marrow damage 25 was generally understood much earlier than even file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (356 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 179 1 that. 2 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Bone marrow damage, 3 including aplastic anemia, which is a fatal 4 blood disease, correct? 5 A. It can be, yes. 6 Q. Were you aware that in Texas it has 7 been the law since 1958 that employers monitor 8 their work environment so that they can be 9 assured that they don't overexpose employees to 10 benzene? 11 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 12 question. 13 A. Well, I'm not specifically aware of 14 Texas law in particular dating back to the 15 1950s, but I'm generally aware that in fact 16 that's an obligation of employers. 17 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Were you aware that 18 as early as 1960 the Walsh-Healey Act required 19 employers or companies who sold goods over file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (357 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 $10,000 to the government, the United States 21 government, that they had to monitor and protect 22 their workers from exposure to chemicals 23 including benzene? 24 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 25 the question. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (358 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 180 1 A. I have absolutely no argument with 2 the notion, but I'm not familiar with the 3 Walsh-Healey Act. 4 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Never heard of that 5 or had any questions asked to you about that in 6 all of your 40 or so benzene depositions? 7 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 8 question. 9 A. I probably have, but I don't 10 recognize it as the Walsh-Healey Act, so I'm not 11 sure what you are talking about specifically, 12 but I have no argument with the concept. 13 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Would you agree, sir, 14 that by 1960 there was no secret in the chemical 15 industry that benzene was known to cause deadly 16 blood diseases? 17 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 18 question. 19 A. Benzene was associated with chronic file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (359 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 bone marrow toxicity far earlier than that. At 21 that particular point in history, there were no 22 quantitative epidemiology studies that 23 demonstrated a clear-cut relationship between 24 benzene and leukemia. Acute myelogenous 25 leukemia in particular. At this -- during that file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (360 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 181 1 decade we became aware not only -- and when I 2 say "we" I'm talking with the scientific 3 community as a whole because I was -- I was a 4 youngster at that point. But in the 1960s -5 over the 1960s is when there was first evidence 6 in the medical community that bone marrow 7 toxicity and bone marrow damage per se could 8 lead to the development of AML, and there was 9 also emerging evidence associating benzene in 10 particular with the development of AML. So 11 those began to occur over the decade of the 12 '60s. 13 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Let me object to 14 responsiveness. My question was more simple 15 than that. Isn't it true that by the 1960s, it 16 was well known among the chemical industry that 17 benzene could cause deadly diseases? 18 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 19 question. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (361 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. With respect to bone marrow 21 toxicity, it certainly should have been, yes. 22 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) There would have been 23 no reason for a company who was selling and 24 handling chemicals and requiring its employees 25 to work around chemicals, for them not to know file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (362 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 182 1 and have knowledge that benzene could cause 2 deadly diseases, correct? 3 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 4 question. 5 A. As a matter of principle, in 6 general, I think that employers have an 7 obligation, whether or not and independent of 8 specific laws, to provide information relating 9 to the potential hazards and toxicity of the 10 substances that they are exposed to. 11 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) All right. I would 12 agree with that, too, but my question was more 13 along the lines of your previous answer that by 14 the 1960s members of the chemical industry 15 should know about the hazards of benzene and 16 that it could cause deadly diseases for those 17 who were exposed to it? 18 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 19 question. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (363 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. By the 1960s and certainly during 21 the 1960s, the evidence in the scientific and 22 medical literature associated with the 23 development of bone marrow toxicity in general 24 and benzene was generally recognized. 25 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) It was widespread by file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (364 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 183 1 the '60s, correct? 2 A. With respect to bone marrow 3 toxicity, yes. 4 Q. And with respect to deaths resulting 5 from bone marrow toxicity, correct? 6 A. From severe chronic exposure, that's 7 true. 8 MR. SCOTT: Darren, if you get to a 9 spot someplace, I would like to take a break, 10 just whenever you get there, a rest room break. 11 MR. BROWN: Okay. If you need to 12 take a rest room break, we can take one right 13 now. 14 MR. SCOTT: If this is good for you 15 to stop, that's fine. 16 MR. BROWN: I ain't going to keep a 17 man from going to the rest room. 18 MR. SCOTT: I'm good for a while. 19 Just early warning here. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (365 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 MR. BROWN: I got so noticed out of 21 your questions that I might have to go someday. 22 So if we need to take a rest room break, let's 23 do it. 24 MR. SCOTT: Thanks. 25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (366 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 184 1 approximately 3:33 p.m. and we are now off the 2 record. 3 (A break was taken.) 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 5 approximately 3:38 p.m. and we are now on the 6 record. 7 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Sir, you've told us 8 you are not an industrial hygienist, correct? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. Are you seen any quantitative 11 industrial hygiene monitoring data for 12 Mr. McCarty for the years that he worked at the 13 Van Waters & Rogers facility in Beaumont, Texas? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Have you seen any monitoring data 16 for Mr. McCarty at all? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Have you seen any monitoring data 19 for any person whom you believe or whom others file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (367 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 have told you were engaged in representative 21 jobs that Mr. McCarty would have been doing? 22 You don't understand that question? 23 A. No, I didn't. 24 Q. Let me reask it. Have you seen any 25 industrial hygiene monitoring data that you file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (368 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 185 1 contend is representative of Mr. McCarty's 2 exposure while he worked at Van Waters & Rogers? 3 A. Specifically, no. 4 Q. And that would be, as you I'm sure 5 recall from reading of the depositions that you 6 told me that you read, because Van Waters & 7 Rogers never did monitor workers like 8 Mr. McCarty, correct? 9 A. I can't speak to that one way or the 10 other, based upon my review of the testimony and 11 information that I have read. My focus in 12 reviewing the boxes of information that I have 13 looked at in this case were based upon rendering 14 the opinions that I have and I really did not 15 focus on other issues. 16 Q. All right. Sir, I will represent to 17 you that Mr. Wellen and others who we've deposed 18 have told us that there was no industrial 19 hygiene monitoring of anybody at Van Waters & file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (369 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Rogers during the years that Mr. McCarty worked 21 there for industrial hygiene monitoring in the 22 breathing zone for benzene. All right? You can 23 take that as a representation to me -- from me 24 based on my review in those depositions that you 25 have copies of, okay? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (370 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 186 1 Assuming that that is true, wouldn't 2 you agree that it would be very difficult to 3 have actual quantitative data on the types of 4 exposures that Mr. McCarty would have been 5 experiencing without the industrial hygiene 6 monitoring data? 7 A. To the extent that -- to the extent 8 that -- a quantitative exposure analysis 9 optimally requires monitoring data. In the 10 absence of specific monitoring data, often 11 mathematical models are used or analogies or 12 surrogate exposures or monitoring data can be 13 substituted. It's not as robust as direct 14 monitoring data, but it's the state of the art 15 with respect to industrial hygiene. 16 Q. And with respect to trying to assess 17 an individual's exposure to a certain chemical, 18 wouldn't you agree that the most accurate and 19 the best way of doing that would be to do file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (371 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 industrial hygiene monitoring of that person's 21 breathing zone? 22 A. The most accurate way of doing it 23 would be to do personal monitoring of the 24 individual, not necessarily breathing zone, but 25 basically quantitative, repeated analysis, but file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (372 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 187 1 that's -- that is simply not possible to do 2 individual monitoring on everyone that has ever 3 worked, even in benzene manufacturing. 4 Individual personal monitoring data is used in 5 developing and documenting exposure estimates, 6 but not everyone all the time can be monitored 7 for exposure to benzene or anything else. 8 Q. Let me object to responsiveness. 9 Sir, do you recognize -- I know you are not an 10 industrial hygienist, but you say you have 11 experience in some issues of industrial hygiene. 12 Do you recognize that the standard for 13 determining worker exposures to a chemical is to 14 do industrial hygiene monitoring of that 15 worker's breathing zone? 16 A. Yes, I do. 17 Q. All right. Is there any more 18 accurate way of assessing a worker's exposure to 19 chemicals than conducting the standard and file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (373 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 competent industrial hygiene monitoring of his 21 breathing zone? 22 A. There are other techniques that can 23 be useful in evaluating an overall quantitative 24 exposure for an individual or group of 25 individuals besides breathing zone measurements. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (374 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 188 1 This includes exhaled breath measurements, this 2 includes personal monitoring, this includes a 3 variety of different quantitative techniques 4 that can be used in a -- certainly in an 5 environment where you are doing research or 6 trying to assess quantitative exposure. 7 The techniques I'm talking about are 8 not routinely used in monitoring individual 9 workers in the workplace. They are the subject 10 of studies, and they are used in research in 11 industrial hygiene. 12 Q. Let me object to responsiveness. My 13 question was, Do you know of a more accurate way 14 of assessing a worker's exposure to a particular 15 chemical than to do industrial hygiene 16 monitoring of his breathing zone? 17 A. I think I just told you that one can 18 obtain more accurate assessments -- the more 19 information you have, the more data you have file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (375 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 always the better it is. And there are 21 experimental procedures besides doing breathing 22 zone measurements. Breathing zone measurements 23 are the standard for evaluating exposure in the 24 workplace on a routine basis. 25 Q. Okay. And without having any type file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (376 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 189 1 of monitoring for Mr. McCarty or any of his 2 coworkers, those who try to assess or quantify 3 his exposures has to rely upon less accurate or 4 less reliable means of doing so, correct? 5 A. You can always -- I can't think of a 6 situation where one has absolutely every piece 7 of quantitative data that you can imagine in 8 order to evaluate an exposure. That simply is 9 not the case. I do believe that there are very 10 effective and useful methodologies that involve 11 surrogate analysis and involve use of physical 12 monitoring. And I think mathematical models can 13 be very useful in evaluating and extrapolating 14 that data. I think that certainly within terms 15 of approximating quantitative exposure, those 16 are reasonable surrogates in many circumstances. 17 Q. Let me object to responsiveness. 18 You have not done on your own any mathematical 19 modeling or quantitative or surrogate analysis file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (377 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 of Mr. McCarty's exposure, correct? 21 A. No, I have not. 22 Q. All right. And you had to rely upon 23 somebody else to do that for you, correct? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. You didn't have enough information file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (378 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 190 1 to make those decisions or design a model that 2 you felt comfortable with on your own; is that 3 true? 4 A. I did not want to make a 5 quantitative assessment of his exposure. 6 Q. Okay. Another way of trying to get 7 an estimate of what a worker's exposure would 8 have been would be to use means other than 9 quantitative measurements, correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And those are -- to do that they are 12 often referred to as qualitative estimates of 13 exposure, correct? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. And that's at least been in your 16 practice acceptable, scientific means of trying 17 to assess a worker exposure, correct? 18 A. I think it's less valuable than a 19 quantitative exposure assessment. In the file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (379 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 absence of a quantitative exposure assessment, a 21 qualitative exposure assessment is basically all 22 I would have to fall back on in terms of 23 evaluating exposure, but it's by no means the 24 ideal. 25 Q. It's not the ideal, but it's file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (380 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 191 1 accepted and within the epidemiological field 2 within the toxicological field for determining 3 what potential exposures or range of exposures 4 may have been at a particular time, correct? 5 A. I would disagree with that. I think 6 that certainly in terms of epidemiology and in 7 quantitative epidemiology, qualitative estimates 8 are not acceptable surrogates for quantitative 9 exposure assessments. 10 Q. Well, that's what I'm saying. Not 11 all -- not all epidemiological assessments have 12 the benefit of quantitative data, correct? 13 A. That's correct, but I'm saying that 14 a quantitative epidemiology study requires a 15 quantitative exposure assessment. 16 Q. All right. Well, there are many 17 epidemiological studies that don't have 18 quantitative data that are relied upon by 19 epidemiologists and toxicologists in determining file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (381 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 disease causation, correct? 21 A. Not in determining quantitative 22 disease causation. You have to have some 23 estimate of exposure. You have to have some 24 basis for determining that you understand the 25 nature of the exposure that an individual or file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (382 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 192 1 individuals in a population have experienced. 2 Q. Some basis of exposure, and that can 3 be gained through talking with a plant 4 industrial hygienist or gathering other 5 information that would indicate exposures at a 6 particular level, other than by quantifying or 7 quantitative means or industrial hygiene 8 monitoring, correct? 9 A. Obviously in the absence of the 10 ability to do any quantitative measurements, 11 which is rare, or assessments, epidemiologists 12 will rely on qualitative analysis. I don't 13 believe those studies are as reliable in 14 determining the quantitative relationship 15 between exposure and disease. Often -- the most 16 often scenario that I think is as reliable as 17 most studies are involves a combination of 18 assessing the qualitative exposure and providing 19 some kind of quantitative estimate, modeling or file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (383 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 actual analysis of industrial hygiene data. 21 Q. Let me object to responsiveness. 22 One qualitative method of evaluating exposures 23 would be to consider or look at the odor 24 threshold of a particular chemical, correct? 25 A. That's not a useful quantitative file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (384 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 193 1 measure of assessment. 2 Q. All right. Are you saying it's 3 totally useless? 4 A. I'm saying certainly it's not a 5 quantitative -- it's not a quantitative 6 estimate, and it's not a reliable estimate in 7 determining the nature of a quantitative 8 exposure. 9 Q. Let me object to responsiveness. My 10 question is, Are you saying evaluating exposures 11 by odor threshold of chemicals is a totally 12 useless way of trying to come up with at least a 13 minimum exposure to a chemical? 14 A. Close to useless. It is certainly 15 not useful in a quantitative assessment of 16 exposure. 17 Q. Well -18 A. It's a highly unreliable parameter 19 and is subject to a host of deficiencies. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (385 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. Well, you indicated earlier that you 21 had gathered data on odor threshold of 22 chemicals. So I assume you did that with some 23 purpose in mind, correct? 24 A. Yes. I provided those, the 25 references that I have relating to exposure, file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (386 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 194 1 because I believe that Mr. Parker's analysis of 2 the potential exposure to benzene based on odor 3 thresholds are not -- don't comport with the 4 scientific and medical literature associated 5 with odor thresholds of benzene, and in fact 6 there are numerous authorities that disagree 7 with his conclusions. 8 Q. Okay. Again, I need to object to 9 responsiveness. Do you know what the American 10 Industrial Hygiene Association is? 11 A. It's an association of industrial 12 hygienists. 13 Q. Do you recognize the American 14 Industrial Hygiene Association as a reliable 15 source of industrial hygiene information? 16 A. Sometimes. Not necessarily just 17 simply on the basis of the fact that it's the 18 Industrial Hygiene Association. It depends upon 19 what it is, who it is that is making a file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (387 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 statement, whether it's the association or an 21 individual, whether it's based upon experimental 22 direct evidence, what the source of it is, and I 23 would take into -- I take into consideration not 24 only its single source, but what are the 25 available -- what are the available data sets file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (388 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 195 1 and authorities and sources of information that 2 are available in the world literature. 3 Q. I'm just asking a simple question. 4 Do you or do you not recognize the American 5 Industrial Hygiene Association as a reliable 6 source of industrial hygiene information? 7 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 8 question. 9 A. Sometimes. 10 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) I mean, in general do 11 you feel like that that group publishes reliable 12 information concerning industrial hygiene and 13 exposure information, for instance? 14 A. Sometimes. 15 Q. Can you think of anytime 16 specifically that you say that they have been 17 unreliable and you have not relied upon them? 18 A. To the extent that any summary of 19 data doesn't comport with the preponderance of file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (389 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 data available in the scientific and medical 21 literature concerning a given finding, then I 22 would have to disagree. I can't -- I can't on 23 the basis of defining a single authority, 24 textbook, or organization say a priori that 25 because there is a document that has been file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (390 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 196 1 published by them or that information contained 2 in a tome that's produced by -- in a textbook or 3 any organization a priori carries the weight of 4 scientific proof. So I would have to evaluate 5 every individual item or piece of evidence or 6 conclusion on an individual basis. 7 Q. And so I guess what you are saying 8 is that if the matter concerned a matter of 9 industrial hygiene, you would include as a 10 source to consider the opinions of the American 11 Industrial Hygiene Association? 12 A. I would consider -- I would consider 13 them as a source, and I would -- yes, I would -14 I think that they are an authority that should 15 be considered in evaluating any particular issue 16 related to industrial hygiene, but not 17 categorically would I conclude that any given 18 document or statement is accurate or true. 19 Q. Do you know that the American file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (391 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Industrial Hygiene Association has published 21 odor threshold figures for various chemicals? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And do you know that they have 24 published one for the chemical benzene? 25 A. I believe they published one many, file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (392 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 197 1 many, many years ago. 2 Q. Go ahead. 3 A. I recall seeing -- I don't remember 4 the date, but it's very old. 5 Q. Well, I mean, you don't recall the 6 date. So again, you don't know how many times 7 they've published odor thresholds for various 8 chemicals, I would assume, correct? 9 A. They published -- I know that there 10 are compendiums of odor thresholds. There are 11 numerous authorities that have published on odor 12 thresholds for many -- for many compounds. I've 13 provided several here today. There are many 14 different groups, government agencies, as well 15 as nongovernment groups like the ACGIH. Many 16 different organizations have published data on 17 the physical, chemical properties of chemicals, 18 including odor thresholds and other properties. 19 Q. Other than for litigation, do you file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (393 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 use odor thresholds at all in your business? 21 A. I think they are highly unreliable. 22 I would not use them in a quantitative way, and 23 only in the most general qualitative way, 24 because most individuals' knowledge and 25 understanding of what it is they are smelling or file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (394 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 198 1 what the nature of a given smell is, is highly 2 unreliable when untrained. 3 Q. Let me object to responsiveness. My 4 question is, Other than in litigation, do you 5 use odor threshold in your business for any 6 reason? 7 A. For any reason? Only as a very 8 general guidance. 9 Q. For what particular application? 10 A. For ascertaining whether or not an 11 individual perceives that they have been exposed 12 to a solvent or some other compound or chemical. 13 Q. Are you familiar with what the 14 American -- I mean, the American Industrial 15 Hygiene Association says is the odor threshold 16 for benzene? 17 MR. SCOTT: Object to form. 18 A. If you want to show me the document, 19 I would be happy to discuss it. Specifically file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (395 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 the exact number you are talking about, I would 21 have to see it. 22 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) All right. Well, if 23 the American Industrial Hygiene Association has 24 published that the odor threshold for benzene, 25 the median value, is 61 parts per million, would file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (396 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 199 1 you dispute that figure? 2 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 3 the question. 4 A. I think that the vast majority of 5 studies on odor threshold of benzene and 6 authorities who have published on odor threshold 7 of benzene are not consistent with that level 8 and in fact are consistent with vastly lower 9 odor thresholds in terms of concentration. 10 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Let me object to 11 responsive. Would you dispute the American 12 Industrial Hygiene Association's median odor 13 threshold value of 61 parts per million for 14 benzene? 15 MR. SCOTT: Object to form. 16 A. Based on my knowledge and the 17 knowledge of the literature, yes. 18 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) All right. What 19 studies do you have that would allow you to file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (397 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 dispute the American Industrial Hygiene 21 Association odor threshold for benzene 22 particularly when you are not even an industrial 23 hygienist? 24 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 25 question. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (398 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 200 1 A. I only brought a few. I didn't 2 bring everything in the literature. But I've 3 brought references associated with the 4 determination of odor threshold for benzene from 5 numerous sources. This one is the National 6 Safety Council, which reports an odor threshold 7 of approximately 2 parts per million. 8 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Is that odor 9 identification threshold? Is that odor 10 recognition threshold? Can you -11 A. It's odor -- it's odor recognition 12 threshold. 13 Q. Of 2 parts per million? 14 A. Yes. By recognition I mean exposure 15 to something. Got a 1989 report from the 16 American Industrial Hygiene Association, which I 17 think is the same organization we've been 18 talking about, and it gives a geometric mean for 19 a odor threshold of 61. A geometric mean is not file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (399 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 a mean. It's not an arithmetic mean. It is a 21 single point in any number of random 22 measurements giving only weight to the 23 individual point. It does not -- there could 24 be -- for example, out of 100 measurements there 25 could be 99 at 5 parts per million or less, for file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (400 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 201 1 example, and one at -- my arithmetic is not this 2 good -- let's say something on the order of 90, 3 and the geometric mean would be 61. 4 Q. That's an average of what you were 5 saying, correct? 6 A. This is a geometric mean. That's 7 not an arithmetic mean. 8 Q. The range that they report for the 9 61 parts per million geometric mean was what? 10 A. It's hard to say. They give two 11 measurements. They don't -- it's hard for me to 12 tell from this whether it's a range. Again -13 Q. Does it say 34 to 97 on there? 14 A. No. It says 61 and then there's 15 another figure on the line below that says 97. 16 But as I said before, that's a geometric mean. 17 It's not an arithmetic mean. I've got other 18 citations. Here's the Texas Medical Library -19 let's see. AMA, American Medical Association, file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (401 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 from -- this is 1959, which is extremely old. 21 Q. Before we go any further, I hate to 22 stop you. We are going to run out of tape. If 23 we could stop right now and hold your thought 24 and we will continue on right there. 25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (402 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 202 1 approximately 4:01 p.m. and we are now off the 2 record. 3 The time is approximately 4:03 p.m. 4 and we are back on the record. 5 A. As long ago as 1959 the American 6 Medical Association published a report on the 7 state of knowledge with respect to the 8 toxicology, biochemistry, and industrial hygiene 9 of various substances and reported an odor 10 threshold of benzene of 1.5 ppm. 11 The World Health Organization on 12 environmental health criteria dated 1993 13 presented the same type of data on benzene and 14 reported a range of odor -- a range of 15 concentrations for odor threshold of between 4.8 16 and 15 milligrams per cubic meter, which is 17 one -- roughly one to four and a half parts per 18 million benzene. 19 A reference from 1972 in Clinical file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (403 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Toxicology, Fifth Edition, reports an odor 21 threshold of benzene of 1.5 to 5 ppm for 22 detection. The U.S. Department of Health and 23 Human Services from 1997 reported a detection 24 threshold odor, which is again 4.9 milligrams 25 per meter cubed, which would be 1.5 parts per file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (404 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 203 1 million. These are just some examples. 2 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Let me object to 3 responsiveness. Sir, with regard to the study 4 by the American Industrial Hygiene Association, 5 first of all, do you have any reason to think 6 that that industry is biased in any way -7 MR. SCOTT: Object to form -8 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) -- or that 9 association is biased in any way? 10 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 11 the question. 12 A. No. I believe that the variance 13 between virtually all the other authorities on 14 odor threshold and that particular report is the 15 use of a geometric mean, which does not convey 16 the weight or frequency of measurements made at 17 a given level. And I believe that most of the 18 other odor thresholds have been calculated on 19 the basis of the quantitative weight of the file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (405 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 number determinations and arithmetic mean. 21 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Let me object to the 22 nonresponsive portions of the answer. With 23 regard to the American Industrial Hygiene 24 Association study, do you know how they came up 25 with their numbers, and do you know if such file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (406 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 204 1 method was an accepted scientific method of 2 arriving at odor threshold of chemicals? 3 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 4 question. 5 A. I haven't -- I have not evaluated or 6 studied their specific methodology. I am simply 7 providing you with my opinion based upon the 8 number of authorities that have provided 9 information on an odor threshold for benzene 10 which indicate that the odor threshold is far 11 less than that reported by the ACGIH in that 12 particular report. 13 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) All right. Object to 14 nonresponsive. As I understand your answer, you 15 have not evaluated the methodology used by the 16 American Industrial Hygiene Association for 17 arriving at odor thresholds that they did, 18 correct? 19 A. Other than my analysis of the file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (407 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 statistical parameters that they use, which was 21 geometric mean, which I do understand and I do 22 understand the difference between the 23 methodology for calculating the mean between an 24 arithmetic and a geometric mean. 25 Q. What I'm asking is, did you file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (408 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 205 1 understand what methodology that they used. Do 2 you know how they determined what levels, what 3 kind of industrial hygiene monitoring, or any 4 kind of monitoring that they used? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Do you know anything about the 7 parameters of their studies or their report? 8 A. No. 9 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 10 the question. 11 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) All right. With 12 regard to any of the other studies that you've 13 referenced here today, do you know anything 14 about the methodologies that were used in those 15 that have the values which you say are more in 16 line with what the odor thresholds are? 17 A. No. 18 Q. So you couldn't vouch for those 19 studies or say that they were accurate in any file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (409 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 way; you just have to read the studies just like 21 anybody else, correct? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. Have you ever done any independent 24 research on odor thresholds of chemicals, 25 specifically with regard to benzene, yourself? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (410 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 206 1 A. I'm currently directing a study that 2 is evaluating exposure to benzene. As I said 3 before, my reliance on odor threshold is -- I 4 don't rely on odor threshold except the 5 anecdotal indication that an individual may have 6 that they perceive they have been exposed to a 7 volatile substance. 8 Q. Let me object to responsiveness. My 9 question was, Have you done any independent 10 research on the odor thresholds of chemicals, 11 specifically benzene? 12 A. No. 13 Q. All right. With regard to the 14 research that you are doing in Shanghai, do you 15 use odor thresholds in any aspect of that 16 research? 17 A. No, not substantively. 18 Q. Do you know how much benzene 19 exposure that it takes for an individual to file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (411 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 become dizzy or lightheaded? 21 A. Usually between 100 and 500 parts 22 per million. Most individuals will experience 23 some sensory -- sensorium impairment before they 24 get to levels of 500 parts per million. 25 Q. All right. Well, are you saying file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (412 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 207 1 that if somebody is exposed at the level above 2 500 parts per million, that he is going to be 3 physically impaired to the extent he can't do 4 his job? 5 A. No. 6 Q. That's not your testimony, correct? 7 A. No, I'm saying they will experience 8 some dizziness or lightheadedness. 9 Q. You read the affidavit of and 10 deposition of Mr. Beverly where he indicated 11 while they were drumming benzene, he experienced 12 lightheadedness or dizziness, correct? 13 A. I vaguely recall that, yes. 14 Q. All right. And do you recall 15 Mr. McCarty saying those same things in his 16 sworn affidavit? 17 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 18 question. 19 A. As I indicated to you earlier, I file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (413 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 don't recall specifically Mr. McCarty's 21 comments. 22 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Okay. You didn't 23 even use Mr. McCarty's affidavit in formulating 24 your opinions; that's correct? 25 A. I did not use his affidavit in file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (414 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 208 1 formulating my opinion with respect to exposure. 2 Q. Isn't it important, sir, to you as a 3 toxicologist trying to assess exposure, if 4 somebody said I drummed benzene and I drummed it 5 where the concentrations were such that it made 6 me lightheaded or dizzy, that would be an 7 important fact in your evaluation? 8 A. If in fact there was evidence to 9 support or corroborate that in fact that 10 individual was exposed to benzene, it would be 11 of some value to me. But I don't believe that 12 individual anecdotal reports with respect to 13 perception are useful in determining the nature 14 of the specific substance that an individual is 15 exposed to. 16 Q. Are you saying to the jury you don't 17 think Mr. McCarty was exposed to benzene? 18 A. I am saying that there is no -- I've 19 seen no specific evidence to -- that I can rely file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (415 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 upon to determine that in fact Mr. McCarty was 21 exposed to benzene, and I don't believe that his 22 anecdotal testimony relating to what he smelled 23 is useful in answering that question. 24 Q. Sir, the man said he was exposed to 25 benzene. He filled it up in 55-gallon drums. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (416 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 209 1 His co-worker said he did the same thing. Are 2 you saying he's lying? 3 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 4 the question. 5 A. I am not saying and I do not believe 6 that Mr. McCarty is lying. I don't believe that 7 his testimony provides me with sufficient 8 information to determine that in fact he was 9 exposed to benzene. 10 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) But he says he was, 11 so that's not good enough for you, correct? 12 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 13 question. 14 A. That's not -- that is not 15 information as a toxicologist I can use in 16 determining or assessing his potential 17 quantitative exposure to benzene. 18 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) All right. What 19 would you have to have in addition to his word file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (417 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 and his co-worker's word that he was exposed to 21 benzene and that they filled up 55-gallon drums 22 of benzene often during the month for four to 23 five hours at a time without any protection -24 what in addition to that would you need to say 25 you had enough information to perform a file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (418 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 210 1 toxicological evaluation that he was exposed to 2 benzene? 3 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 4 the question. 5 A. Well, I don't recall in fact that I 6 read testimony in my review of the material 7 provided to me that provides independent 8 corroboration that in fact, with the exception 9 of Mr. Beverly and Mr. McCarty, that they in 10 fact -- were in fact drumming benzene. And 11 furthermore, I think that in order to ascertain 12 that that in fact was the substance -- solvent 13 that they were involved in drumming, that I need 14 additional information to corroborate that that 15 was in fact the solvent. 16 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) That's what I'm 17 asking. What additional information do you need 18 other than the workers' own good word, hey, it 19 was benzene we were putting in these drums -- file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (419 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 and we got tickets from 1969 that says they were 21 doing that; somehow for some reason we can't 22 find them going back any further -- but what do 23 you need in addition to the man's word it was 24 benzene we were putting in those drums before 25 you feel confident enough to say that he had file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (420 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 211 1 some exposure to benzene? 2 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 3 question. We are just arguing now. And 4 Mr. McCarty wasn't there at that point that you 5 got tickets, so -6 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) What additional 7 information do you need other than their word 8 that they got exposed to benzene? 9 MR. SCOTT: Same objection. 10 A. As a toxicologist, I would need some 11 independent corroboration that in fact benzene 12 was present on the facility, that they were in 13 fact drumming benzene, and in fact they were 14 working with -- in that environment at a time 15 when benzene was present at the facility. 16 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Did you see 17 Mr. Wellen's testimony where he said, yes, we 18 did drum benzene at the Beaumont facility in the 19 late '60s? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (421 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 21 question. 22 A. I -- as I -- as I testified earlier 23 today, I recall testimony that suggested the 24 possibility or that referred to the possibility 25 that in fact there was benzene at that facility file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (422 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 212 1 in the late '60s. That does not comport with my 2 understanding of the period of time that's at 3 issue with respect to Mr. McCarty's exposure. 4 Q. Bottom line is you don't know if 5 Mr. McCarty was exposed to benzene or not, 6 correct? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. And you wouldn't take that job away, 9 that fact-finding job away from the jury, if 10 they wanted to believe Mr. McCarty and his 11 co-worker that they were exposed to benzene 12 while they worked at Van Waters & Rogers, would 13 you? 14 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 15 question. 16 A. As a toxicologist, I cannot render 17 an opinion with respect to potential for 18 Mr. McCarty's exposure to benzene without some 19 objective evidence that in fact he was exposed. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (423 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 I am simply telling you that based upon my 21 opinion, I've seen nothing that would lead me to 22 conclude that in fact he was exposed to benzene. 23 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) And to come to that 24 opinion you have to ignore his coworker's 25 testimony and his sworn affidavit that he was, file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (424 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 213 1 correct? 2 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 3 question. 4 A. I don't believe that's the case at 5 all. 6 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Well, that's what you 7 are doing, isn't it, sir? 8 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 9 question. 10 A. I reviewed a great deal of material 11 including testimony that did not indicate that 12 benzene was drummed at that facility during the 13 time that Mr. McCarty was there. 14 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Are you ignoring 15 their testimony or are you not ignoring it? 16 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 17 question. 18 A. I am not using anecdotal testimony 19 as a basis for determining what in fact file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (425 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Mr. McCarty's exposure to benzene was. 21 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) His statements about 22 what he was exposed to are of no use to you and 23 you can ignore those in terms of how you come up 24 with your opinions, correct? 25 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (426 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 214 1 question. 2 A. As an expert in rendering opinion 3 with respect to benzene exposure and the 4 relationship between benzene exposure and the 5 development of Mr. McCarty's disease, I cannot 6 rely on anecdotal information in reaching -7 solely anecdotal information in reaching that 8 conclusion. 9 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Do you have any 10 studies, sir, that you think fairly and 11 accurately represent what Mr. McCarty's exposure 12 to benzene was while he was drumming that 13 chemical into 55-gallon drums for four to five 14 hours at a time? 15 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 16 question. 17 A. No. 18 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) As a toxicologist and 19 a health professional, what would you think file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (427 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 about a work practice of a company that allowed 21 employees to drum pure benzene for four to five 22 hours at a time into 55-gallon drums without 23 respiratory protection or any PPE or any warning 24 of benzene hazards? 25 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (428 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 215 1 question. 2 A. Based upon our knowledge of the 3 hazards of benzene and the existing state of the 4 art with respect to regulation of benzene, I 5 believe that that would be both illegal and 6 inappropriate today. 7 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) That would be utterly 8 ridiculous today, wouldn't it, sir? 9 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 10 question. 11 A. It is -- with respect to the state 12 of the art today, that would not be acceptable. 13 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) All right. And even 14 back in the 1960s when companies, as you said, 15 should have known that benzene caused deadly 16 diseases, that information was available to 17 them, that was utterly ridiculous back at that 18 time too, wasn't it, sir? 19 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (429 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 question. 21 A. I still, as I sit here today, don't 22 believe, and I don't have any information to 23 conclude, that the conditions associated with 24 the -- certainly the described -- the conditions 25 described in Mr. Beverly or Mr. McCarty's file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (430 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 216 1 testimony -- Mr. Beverly's as I remember -- that 2 provides me with a -- even a qualitative 3 indication that the levels of exposure that 4 Mr. McCarty was potentially exposed to, if you 5 assume all of the conditions in Mr. Beverly's 6 affidavit, necessarily is associated with an 7 exposure that would be consistent with that 8 which has been previously demonstrated to result 9 in a quantitative increase in the risk of AML. 10 That's one of the reasons why I think it's 11 important, when possible, to rely on a 12 quantitative exposure estimate. 13 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) I think I'm supposed 14 to object to nonresponsive here. My question 15 was, It would have been utterly ridiculous in 16 the 1960s for a company to allow its employees 17 to drum pure benzene into 55-gallon drums for 18 four to five hours at a time without 19 respirators, PPE, or any warning of benzene file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (431 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 hazards whatsoever due to the fact that in the 21 '60s it was widely known that benzene could 22 cause deadly illnesses, correct? 23 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 24 question. 25 A. Based on my knowledge, that's not file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (432 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 217 1 the case. That is not necessarily consistent 2 with state of the art during the '60s. 3 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Assume with me that 4 that is what was happening. I know you don't 5 necessarily believe Mr. McCarty and his 6 co-worker, Mr. Beverly, but assume with me that 7 the jury does. Would you at least be able to 8 tell the jury that would have been a silly, 9 utterly ridiculous practice for a company to 10 allows employees to drum benzene, pure benzene 11 into 55-gallon grams without any protection 12 whatsoever and without any warning that benzene 13 could hurt? 14 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 15 the question. It's repetitive and harassing. 16 A. I don't believe that the 17 state of the art at the time that that procedure 18 or those practices would be inconsistent with 19 state of knowledge at that particular time. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (433 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) And what basis do you 21 have to say that the state of the art was such 22 that at that time that would have been an 23 acceptable practice? 24 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 25 the question. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (434 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 218 1 A. The general scientific and medical 2 communities did not reach the conclusion that 3 quantitative -- quantitative exposure, repeated 4 exposure to benzene was associated with the 5 development of AML until the mid to late 1970s. 6 During the 1960s, the medical and scientific 7 communities were first becoming aware that 8 exposures to benzene at or below 100 -- 50 to 9 100 parts per million could be associated with 10 the development of toxicity. 11 This is an evolving field, and the 12 level of scientific knowledge and understanding 13 has developed markedly over the last 80 years, 14 and at that particular point in time, although I 15 don't think that those practices would be 16 considered appropriate today, I think that that 17 is consistent with my understanding of 18 state-of-the-art during the '60s. 19 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Let me object to file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (435 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 responsiveness. Sir, did you read any of the 21 depositions from Shell that -- from their 22 representatives that said had they known Van 23 Waters & Rogers was doing this back in the '60s, 24 they wouldn't even have sold the benzene to them 25 at all? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (436 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 219 1 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 2 the question. 3 A. I don't recall. 4 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Did you read the 5 testimony of the Shell representative that said, 6 If they would have told us that, we wouldn't 7 have sold it to them at all, and we asked them 8 what they were using it for and if -- the only 9 way they could have gotten it and used it like 10 they did in drumming it from trucks would have 11 been to lie to us to get it? 12 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 13 the question. 14 A. Sir, I don't understand the 15 question. 16 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Yes, let me reask it. 17 Did you read any of the testimony from the Shell 18 representative in this case who said when they 19 sold benzene to companies like Van Waters & file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (437 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Rogers, they would ask what the company was 21 going to do with it, and the only way that Van 22 Waters & Rogers could have gotten the benzene 23 from Shell and put it into drums out of a truck 24 would have been to lie to Shell so that Shell 25 would sell it to them? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (438 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 220 1 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 2 question. 3 A. I don't recall that. 4 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) As you sit here, can 5 you tell us what the exposure would have been 6 for Mr. McCarty as he filled up 55-gallon drums 7 of benzene with both bungs out of the barrel for 8 four to five hours in hot summer months out 9 there on the docks of the Van Waters & Rogers 10 facility in Beaumont, Texas? 11 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 12 question. 13 A. I base my opinions and my 14 understanding of Mr. McCarty's exposure on the 15 quantitative assessment that I've received that 16 we've discussed today, and I have no opinion as 17 to what his exposure specifically would have 18 been under the conditions you described. 19 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) You are not able to file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (439 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 tell us a number, correct? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Sir, do you know of any reliable 23 peer-reviewed information that says intermittent 24 exposures to even low levels of benzene can be 25 more toxic to the blood-forming elements than file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (440 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 221 1 continuous exposures to even higher levels? 2 A. I have hypothesized in the past that 3 intermittent exposure is probably from a 4 pathogenic standpoint the most significant 5 exposure with respect to the pathogenesis of 6 specific toxicity of the bone marrow, but 7 intermittent exposure in that context is in fact 8 the exposure that I believe is associated with 9 the typical workplace environment that is 10 included and subsumed in the quantitative 11 exposure analysis. 12 So I think the typical industrial 13 exposure environment is that of a succession of 14 intermittent exposures far more frequently than 15 some constant average, theoretical, low-level or 16 high-level exposure. The level of exposure in 17 most workplace situations, whether it's high or 18 low, tends to be sporadic and intermittent. 19 Q. All right. With -- you have stated file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (441 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 to others before that you think that 21 intermittent exposures could be more damaging to 22 the bone marrow, correct? 23 A. Mechanistically, yes, but 24 epidemiology -- quantitative epidemiology 25 studies don't support that as a metric as being file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (442 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 222 1 more sensitive than cumulative exposure. 2 Q. So are you saying you are wrong 3 about intermittent exposures being more 4 dangerous than continuous exposures? 5 A. No, I think we are looking at two 6 different things. I'm looking at the potential 7 molecular mechanisms of bone marrow toxicity and 8 what's the nature of the exposure environment. 9 And the epidemiology studies are looking at the 10 sum total human experience of exposure. And 11 based upon the technologies and the 12 methodologies that are used in assessing 13 exposure, intermittent exposure metrics have 14 proved to be less sensitive than cumulative 15 exposure methods. 16 Q. You are aware that the concept that 17 the body with only -18 (The reporter interrupted.) 19 MR. BROWN: Take a break if you need file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (443 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 to. 21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Time is 22 approximately 4:26 p.m., and we are now off the 23 record. 24 (A break was taken.) 25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (444 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 223 1 approximately 4:30 p.m. and we are back on the 2 record. 3 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Sir, we were talking 4 about the -- your opinions as to relative danger 5 of intermittent exposures to levels of benzene 6 being more toxic to the bone marrow than higher 7 levels of continuous exposure. Do you recall 8 our questioning about that? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. In 1983 do you recall verifying to 11 Dr. Peter Infante that idea that you had and 12 also placing that information into the OSHA 13 benzene document? 14 A. No, I did not. I didn't do that. I 15 gave a -- and I did not talk to Dr. Infante 16 personally. I gave a presentation at a meeting 17 in Washington, D.C., based on my experimental 18 data in animals suggesting that intermittent 19 exposure might produce greater toxicity than file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (445 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 continuous in the context of benzene metabolites 21 introduced directly into the bone marrow in in 22 vitro and vivos situations. That information 23 was not provided by me to OSHA. I would not 24 have thought that it would have been significant 25 to the issues that OSHA was reviewing with file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (446 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 224 1 respect to benzene emissions from the lake and 2 hydride plants at that time. 3 Q. So you would deny that you made 4 those statements, that those statements were 5 transcribed, and it was the New York benzene 6 meeting that I'm referring to, and that those -7 that presentation that you gave at the meeting 8 was transcribed and the transcription of that 9 meeting was put into the OSHA benzene document? 10 A. I'm not sure what you just said. I 11 don't know what the question is. 12 Q. Well, we were talking about your 13 idea about the intermittent exposures being more 14 toxic to the bone marrow than continuous 15 exposures to benzene even at higher levels, and 16 that concept being put into a transcribed 17 document and placed into the OSHA benzene 18 document. You are saying that did not happen, 19 correct? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (447 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 21 question. 22 A. No, I'm not saying that. What is 23 the question you are asking me? 24 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) That is the question 25 I'm asking. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (448 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 225 1 MR. SCOTT: Object to form. 2 A. I'm sorry. I did not detect a 3 question. 4 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) All right. You are 5 saying that you never told Peter Infante that 6 there was -- you had the opinions that 7 intermittent exposure to levels of benzene are 8 more toxic to the bone marrow than continuous 9 exposures at even higher levels? 10 A. No, I'm not saying that. That's not 11 what I was saying. 12 Q. You are not saying that? 13 A. No, I'm not saying that. 14 Q. So you wouldn't deny Peter Infante 15 if he said you told him that, correct? 16 A. I did not tell him individually 17 specifically that. I presented that at a 18 meeting once that Dr. Infante attended. I 19 presented research data from experimental file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (449 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 animals. That does not specifically reach the 21 same conclusion that you did but I think 22 supports another -- something else that I've 23 already responded to you in one of my answers. 24 What I'm saying is I did not specifically talk 25 to Dr. Infante by himself concerning file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (450 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 226 1 intermittent exposures, and I did not submit 2 that presentation of mine to OSHA. 3 Q. During the years of 1977 through 4 1988, you worked for the Chemical Industry 5 Institute of Technology; is that correct? 6 A. Chemical Institute of Toxicology. 7 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. During the years 8 of 1977 through 1988, you worked for the 9 chemical institute -- Chemical Industry 10 Institute of Toxicology; is that correct? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. Who funded the work being done by 13 the Chemical Institute -- Industry Institute of 14 Toxicology? 15 A. CIIT received funding primarily from 16 chemical companies. 17 Q. What were some of those companies? 18 A. Chevron, Texaco, Shell, Mobil, 19 Exxon, to name a few. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (451 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. DuPont? 21 A. I believe so, yes. 22 Q. Dow? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. W.R. Grace? 25 A. Yes. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (452 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 227 1 Q. Conoco? 2 A. I think so, but I can't recall 3 specifically. 4 Q. Phillips? 5 A. Again, I think so, but I can't 6 recall. 7 Q. Do you recall testifying that those 8 two entities did fund the CIIT before? 9 A. Well, I don't recall specifically 10 they did, but I don't find it at all 11 inconsistent. I just don't remember that far 12 back. 13 Q. Wouldn't deny they were contributors 14 or sponsors, correct? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Monsanto? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Any others? 19 A. As I sit here, I don't recall. It's file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (453 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 been a long time. 21 Q. While you were there, what was your 22 job? 23 A. I was a pathologist, scientist, and 24 senior scientist. 25 Q. Did any of your job duties include file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (454 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 228 1 peer review? 2 A. Peer review -- I've been involved in 3 peer review for my entire career. So while I 4 was at CIIT I was involved in peer review. 5 Q. Did you know a health scientist or 6 health professional by the name of Kligerman? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. How did you know him? 9 A. He was another scientist at CIIT. 10 Q. What was his name, first name? 11 A. Andrew. 12 Q. Were you working at CIIT when 13 Kligerman had trouble getting his findings 14 published that benzene was causing chromosomal 15 abnormalities at concentrations as low as 1 part 16 per million? 17 A. I worked at CIIT during -- certainly 18 during the period when Dr. Kligerman was doing 19 studies on chromosomal aberrations on benzene. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (455 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 I don't recall specifically what you are 21 describing. 22 Q. Well, do you recall him having 23 trouble getting his chromosomal findings on -24 chromosomal abnormalities associated with 25 benzene exposures, getting that work published? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (456 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 229 1 A. I don't recall what specific 2 difficulties he had with respect to peer review 3 of his publications. 4 Q. Do you recall that he had opined and 5 found through his work that benzene was causing 6 chromosomal abnormalities in concentrations as 7 low as 1 part per million? 8 A. I recall that he had data that he 9 produced that suggested or that he thought 10 represented demonstration of an association, and 11 I don't even remember the end point, between 12 exposures to benzene at low concentrations and 13 chromosome aberrations. Not aberrations. Other 14 end points. I don't remember specifically the 15 concentration or the end points. I remember 16 there was controversy over the quantitative 17 nature of the results. 18 Q. Did you peer review that work by 19 Dr. Kligerman? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (457 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. I think every scientist probably did 21 at CIIT. That would have been common and 22 typical. 23 Q. Did you agree with his work or his 24 findings? 25 A. I don't recall the specific issues. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (458 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 230 1 I remember -- I remember that I often had and 2 offered opinions that criticized or critiqued 3 studies of my colleagues, and my studies were 4 also criticized and critiqued by my colleagues. 5 Q. Do you know who, if anybody, was 6 behind any effort to discourage or prevent the 7 publication of Dr. Kligerman's work concerning 8 chromosomal abnormalities? 9 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 10 the question. 11 A. I don't know what you are talking 12 about. I don't know what you are referring to. 13 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Well, did he get his 14 work published? 15 A. I believe that -- I believe 16 Kligerman's studies were published. I don't 17 recall specifically where or specifically when, 18 but it's my recollection that his studies were 19 published. I can't tell you specifically one file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (459 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 way or way or the other, but it's certainly 21 my -- it's my recollection that they were. 22 Q. A finding that benzene was causing 23 chromosomal abnormalities in concentrations as 24 low as 1 part per million would have been a 25 finding that none of the companies who were file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (460 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 231 1 funding the Chemical Institute -- Industry 2 Institute of Toxicology would have wanted, 3 correct? 4 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 5 question. 6 A. I think if in fact Dr. Kligerman's 7 studies provided quantitative, definitive 8 evidence of that, it would have been important. 9 I vaguely recall that there were some issues 10 related to the nature of the studies, not the 11 findings themselves. But I don't remember the 12 details. 13 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Well, my question was 14 that people who were funding your company where 15 Dr. Kligerman was working and you were working 16 would not have really liked to have seen a 17 finding that benzene could cause chromosomal 18 damage in concentrations as low as 1 part per 19 million back at that time, would they? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (461 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 21 the question. 22 A. I can't speak to the individual 23 companies or representatives, but whether in 24 fact -- whether or not an individual company 25 would have liked those results or not, if in file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (462 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 232 1 fact CIIT scientists did studies that produced 2 reliable peer-reviewed data that that was in 3 fact the case, it would have been published by 4 the institute. We -- certainly in my case I -5 it was -- actually, all of us, it was made 6 demonstrably clear to us many times that our 7 work and our results were independent of the 8 sponsoring companies and our publications were 9 independent of the sponsoring companies. 10 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) So for the life of 11 you, you couldn't tell the jury whether or not 12 you think those companies would have liked to 13 have seen a finding like that? 14 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 15 question. 16 A. I'm saying it wouldn't have made any 17 difference with respect to the publication of 18 his data. 19 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) But my question was, file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (463 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 would the companies who were funding you have 21 liked to have seen that result, and you are 22 telling me you don't know, correct? 23 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 24 the question. It's harassing. 25 A. As an expert I can't sit here today file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (464 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 233 1 and tell you what a company thinks or what the 2 companies would have thought. 3 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Do you remember 4 telling Dr. Peter Infante about the Kligerman 5 findings that we've been discussing? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Are you familiar with the Lan study? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. The study showing blood 10 abnormalities from benzene exposures down to 11 .2 parts per million? 12 A. I wouldn't necessarily characterize 13 those as abnormalities. The Lan study provides 14 a cross-sectional analysis of isolated blood 15 parameters, none of which are clinically 16 significant. 17 Q. What are your disputes or concern 18 with the Lan study? 19 A. The independent measurements that file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (465 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 they make, there's -- the individual differences 21 that they report are less than the typical 22 diurnal variation in an individual. They 23 aren't -- the differences aren't associated with 24 any clinically recognized hematologic 25 abnormality. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (466 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 234 1 Q. Sir, you said you were asked in this 2 case to form opinions as to the cause of 3 Mr. McCarty's myelodysplastic syndrome and acute 4 myelogenous leukemia. Have you done that? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What is your opinion as to what 7 caused Mr. McCarty's myelodysplastic syndrome 8 and acute myelogenous leukemia? 9 A. It's my opinion that the evidence 10 with respect to exposure and the development of 11 his disease, that there is no basis for me to 12 conclude to a reasonable scientific medical 13 probability that in fact his disease was 14 associated with exposure to benzene. 15 Q. That's based on the evidence that 16 you've seen and how you have interpret it, 17 correct? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. Do you have any other opinions about file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (467 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 the causation issue with regard to Mr. McCarty's 21 disease and what it would have been related to? 22 A. No, other than the fact that at 23 Mr. McCarty's age, the prevalence of 24 myelodysplastic syndrome is relatively high, but 25 I have no basis or opinions with respect to file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (468 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 235 1 alternative causes. 2 Q. All right. Let me ask you this 3 question: Are you saying Mr. McCarty's age of 4 70 years old is what caused him to have 5 myelodysplastic syndrome and acute myelogenous 6 leukemia? 7 A. I'm saying that myelodysplastic 8 syndrome in particular is far more prevalent in 9 people in the fifth, sixth, and seventh decades 10 of life than it is earlier in life. So 11 individuals in that particular age group have a 12 higher overall incidence of myelodysplastic 13 syndrome. 14 Q. But at the same time, Mr. McCarty's 15 age didn't cause his disease, correct? 16 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 17 the question. 18 A. I didn't say that. 19 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) He was -- it's your file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (469 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 understanding from the literature you've 21 reviewed that he was at greater risk for 22 developing myelodysplastic syndrome or acute 23 myelogenous leukemia because of his age, 24 correct? 25 A. Yes, defining risk as an file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (470 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 236 1 epidemiologic -- as an epidemiologic concept, 2 yes. 3 Q. And that's because the damage that 4 occurs from the toxic exposures that cause 5 myelodysplastic syndrome and acute myelogenous 6 leukemia take a while to take place, correct? 7 A. Not necessarily. I don't think you 8 can -- I don't think that that's a cause and 9 effect relationship that's been established in 10 the scientific or medical literature, and I 11 don't think that you can necessarily assume that 12 that is the mechanism associated with the 13 development of MDS in the majority of 14 individuals. 15 Q. Well, because of latency issues, 16 persons will tend to be older in the development 17 of their disease than diseases that don't have 18 latency issues, correct? 19 A. Latency requires or assumes that file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (471 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 there is a point in time an etiologic agent that 21 is associated that can be defined, it's 22 associated with the development of the disease. 23 The increased incidence of MDS in aging 24 individuals does not inform with respect to 25 latency at all. It doesn't tell us anything file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (472 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 237 1 about latency. 2 Q. Well, you would agree that latency 3 would have an effect on somebody's age at the 4 time of diagnosis, correct? 5 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 6 question. 7 A. No. 8 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Well, if the guy -9 well -10 A. Latency -- I'm sorry. 11 Q. If a guy -- what is -- let me just 12 ask you, what is your opinion as to the latency 13 period for -- from first exposure to benzene to 14 clinical diagnosis of benzene-related leukemia? 15 A. Quantitative epidemiology studies 16 indicate a very clear period of latency with a 17 median of around 9 1/2 to 10 1/2 years, and some 18 follow-up studies of epidemiologic studies 19 suggest it may be as high as 15 to 20 years. So file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (473 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 I would say the range is basically probably from 21 on the order of five years as a reasonable 22 probability early and 20 years as an outside 23 probability, based on the epidemiological 24 evidence. 25 Q. Is that median? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (474 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 238 1 A. No, those are ranges. 2 Q. All right. Well, you are aware of 3 the studies in the literature that show ranges 4 of latency for leukemia after exposure to a 5 toxic substance like benzene being -- ranging in 6 period of time from one to 40 years, correct? 7 A. Certainly not for acute 8 myelogenous -- no, not for acute myelogenous 9 leukemia, no. Sorry. 10 Q. You've never seen the Shell study 11 that found a latency period of 47 years for an 12 acute myelogenous leukemia? 13 A. I don't think that an individual 14 case -- first of all, I'm not aware specifically 15 what you are referring -- I don't know what you 16 are referring to as the Shell study, but 17 independent of that, a specific case -18 Q. The Shell look-back study. 19 A. I have not -- that doesn't mean file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (475 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 anything to me. 21 Q. The study of its refinery and 22 chemical plant down in Deer Park, Texas. 23 A. I can't -- I don't recall a specific 24 individual, but you have to remember that 25 quantitative epidemiology defines individuals file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (476 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 239 1 that either comprise a cohort or a defined set 2 of study subjects, and that in any study you are 3 going to have individuals who present with 4 disease that some of which are likely to be 5 associated with the exposure and some of which 6 are going to happen independent of exposure. If 7 you assume -- so in the design of a study, 8 that's always going to be the case. Some 9 individuals in the study are likely to have an 10 etiology that's associated with -- have a 11 defined etiology, and others are going to 12 develop the disease independent of that 13 etiology. 14 In the assessment of latency, no one 15 individual constitutes proof of a period of 16 latency. You have to look at the entire cohort 17 or the entire set in order to ascertain whether 18 or not there's a reasonable probability of 19 developing the disease in a given period of time file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (477 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 based on the entire study. Cohort, not 21 individuals. 22 Q. Latency is described in terms of 23 averages, correct, or means? 24 A. Or ranges, based on scientific 25 probability. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (478 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 240 1 Q. All right. And is it your testimony 2 that a person who has exposure to benzene, first 3 exposure to benzene, and presents with a 4 clinical diagnosis of leukemia 21 years later, 5 that there is no possibility that that diagnosis 6 of leukemia is related to exposures to benzene? 7 A. I wouldn't say that. What I'm 8 saying is the probability that a latency 9 exceeding 20 years is likely to be associated in 10 terms of probability with benzene exposure, that 11 that -- that basically it's unlikely. It's less 12 likely that an individual with a latency of 20 13 years or greater, that that individual's disease 14 is associated with benzene exposure. I don't 15 think the literature supports it. 16 Q. What you are saying is based upon 17 the median latencies that are in the 18 quantitative epidemiology studies that you have 19 reviewed, correct? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (479 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. It's based on the range of latencies 21 reported and documented in the quantitative 22 epidemiologic literature. 23 Q. You agree that qualified, competent 24 scientists have different opinions than you on 25 the average and mean latencies of development of file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (480 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 241 1 leukemia from exposure to benzene, correct? 2 A. I have no idea in general what you 3 are referring to. If you've got a specific 4 document, I would be happy to look at it. 5 Q. Well, let's mark this as the next 6 exhibit. 7 (Irons Deposition Exhibit 7 was 8 marked.) 9 Q. Do you know Dr. Peter Infante? 10 A. I'm familiar with him, yes. 11 Q. Do you consider him to be a 12 competent epidemiologist? 13 A. I think that he's -- Dr. Infante 14 performed an epidemiology study that -15 approximately 30 years ago that represents one 16 of the milestones in the quantitative 17 epidemiologic assessment of benzene 18 chemogenesis. Since then I'm not aware that he 19 has done any primary research in the field. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (481 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. Do you know of his reputation of 21 being a competent epidemiologist or do you say 22 he's not? 23 A. I can't speak to his competency as 24 an epidemiologist. 25 Q. Have you ever seen a study called file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (482 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 242 1 Benzene and Leukemia -- or a publication called 2 "Benzene and Leukemia: Cell Types, Latency, and 3 Amount of Exposure Associated With Leukemia"? 4 Have you ever seen the study before or the 5 publication? 6 A. This -- I wouldn't refer to this as 7 a study. This is a -- this is basically a 8 review and an editorial. It's a review article 9 in which Dr. Infante states his opinions and his 10 review of the literature concerning benzene and 11 leukemia. 12 Q. All right. He states there in that 13 first highlighted paragraph -- would you read 14 that for me, please? 15 A. Which? 16 Q. The first highlighted paragraph. 17 A. "The latency period for benzene 18 leukemia can range from less than one year to 19 more than 40 years after initial exposure with file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (483 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 the median latency for various studies ranging 21 from 9 to 35 years." 22 Q. Do you agree with that statement or 23 not? 24 A. No, I disagree with it. 25 Q. All right. So you recognize that file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (484 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 243 1 good scientists can agree to disagree, correct? 2 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 3 the question. 4 A. I disagree with Dr. Infante's 5 opinion as stated here. 6 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) What he is saying is 7 he has looked at the literature and this is what 8 he sees in the literature, and you are 9 disagreeing with his statement there? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. Can you read the second highlighted 12 portion, please. 13 A. "Quantitative risk assessment based 14 on data from three major benzene cohort studies 15 where relatively good information on dose was 16 provided to estimate cohort exposures indicated 17 a risk of ten excess leukemia deaths per 18 thousand workers exposed over an occupational 19 lifetime, 45 years, to an average concentration file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (485 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 of one ppm benzene." 21 Q. Do you agree or disagree with that 22 statement? 23 A. Well, as I testified to earlier 24 today, I believe that the minimum -- that 25 quantitative epidemiology provides in the -- for file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (486 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 244 1 a minimum of a cumulative exposure estimate of 2 45 ppm-years associated with significant excess 3 of AML. That is exactly what Dr. Infante is 4 saying. 5 Q. So, I mean, you are saying 6 Dr. Infante's opinion is you have to have 45 7 ppm-years to get leukemia; is that right? 8 A. I'm saying that Dr. Infante says 9 here that there is a risk of 10 excess leukemia 10 deaths per thousand workers exposed over an 11 occupational lifetime of 45 years to an average 12 concentration of 1 ppm benzene. His cumulative 13 quantitative metric here is 45 ppm-years. 14 I don't agree that there is any 15 evidence exposure to 1 part per million benzene 16 at any length of time is associated with 17 causation of AML. But there is evidence in the 18 epidemiologic literature in at least one study 19 that suggests that 45 ppm-years would be the file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (487 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 lowest cumulative exposure that's associated 21 with significant excess. 22 Q. Well, you know OSHA disagrees with 23 you on that; you know that OSHA's mathematical 24 modeling of excess leukemias are existing even 25 at below concentrations of 1 part per million, file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (488 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 245 1 correct? 2 A. I can't speak to what OSHA or what 3 an organization like OSHA has for an opinion. I 4 am talking about the quantitative epidemiologic 5 literature. 6 Q. All right. It says right here, page 7 117, referring to Table 3, that 34 percent of 8 those who died from leukemia were exposed to 9 average levels of benzene ranging between .5 and 10 5 parts per million in this particular study. 11 Do you see that? 12 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 13 question. 14 A. That's what -- that's what this 15 says. 16 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) All right. Do you 17 agree or disagree with that statement? 18 A. I have no idea what he is referring 19 to. I don't know what he means by average. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (489 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Average is not a very useful concept in terms of 21 quantitative exposure. An individual that's 22 exposed to an average of 5 parts per million 23 benzene could be exposed to 250 ppm benzene 24 sometimes and virtually infinitesimal amounts at 25 other times. Average means nothing. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (490 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 246 1 Q. What are the risk factors of 2 myelodysplastic syndrome and AML? 3 A. Epidemiology -- in terms of the 4 epidemiology, age. For certain types of MDS, 5 previous exposure to alkylating chemotherapeutic 6 agents. I believe that prolonged chronic 7 exposure to benzene is associated with the 8 development of myelodysplastic syndrome. In 9 fact I published to that effect. There are 10 studies that speculate that there may be 11 infectious or viral etiologies. 12 I think there's some anecdotal 13 evidence that in fact previous infection with 14 certain parasitic agents may be associated with 15 it but I don't think there is quantitative 16 evidence in the literature to support that as of 17 yet. As I sit here, I think those are the major 18 factors. 19 Q. What about radiation? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (491 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. Yes, radiation can cause 21 myelodysplastic syndrome. I don't think it's a 22 frequent cause of the disease. But it can, yes. 23 Q. With regard to the risk factors that 24 you've just told me about, have you ruled out 25 radiation as a cause of Mr. McCarty's file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (492 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 247 1 myelodysplastic syndrome and AML? 2 A. I have no -- I have no information 3 that would allow me to conclude that radiation 4 played a role. I have no information to exclude 5 radiation. 6 Q. You have no information whatsoever 7 that Mr. McCarty had any exposure to radiation, 8 correct? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. You don't have any opinion that 11 Mr. McCarty's exposure to radiation, if any, was 12 a cause or contributing factor of his AML, 13 correct? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. Do you have any evidence that he was 16 exposed to any chemotherapeutic drugs or 17 alkylating agents prior to developing 18 myelodysplastic syndrome or AML? 19 A. No. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (493 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. So you don't have an opinion that 21 any alkylating agent or chemotherapeutic drug is 22 a cause of his myelodysplastic syndrome or AML, 23 correct? 24 A. Not to my knowledge. 25 Q. With regard to infectious file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (494 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 248 1 etiologies, it's my understanding from what 2 you've just told me, you don't think that the 3 science is sufficiently adequate to say that any 4 of those are a particular cause of 5 myelodysplastic syndrome or AML, correct? 6 A. At this time, yes. 7 Q. Do you have any information that 8 Mr. McCarty had any type of infection or any 9 other condition that you believe could have 10 caused his myelodysplastic syndrome or AML? 11 A. Since in fact I don't think the 12 scientific literature supports that as a 13 conclusion for causation, I have -- I don't 14 believe that there is any evidence that 15 Mr. McCarty's MDS is associated with infection. 16 Q. Other than his age, do you think -17 do you have an opinion that any other risk 18 factor or potential risk factor played a role in 19 his development of his myelodysplastic syndrome file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (495 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 or AML? 21 A. I'm not aware of it. 22 Q. And you -- that is what you've been 23 asked to try to find out, correct? 24 A. I've been asked to render an opinion 25 specifically related to benzene, not to file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (496 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 249 1 determine a priori what the cause of his disease 2 is. 3 Q. Well, did you consider any potential 4 risk factors he had, in your opinion? 5 A. Yes, I considered his age, and in my 6 review of his records, I didn't find anything 7 that would suggest that -- I've already 8 testified to the fact that anything to suggest 9 that radiation played a role in the development 10 of his disease. 11 Q. He smoked cigars but in the distant 12 past. Do you have any opinion that cigarette -13 cigar smoke played any role in the development 14 of his condition? 15 A. No, I don't. There is evidence in 16 the medical literature to suggest an increased 17 risk of AML associated with cigarette smoking. 18 There is no evidence that I'm aware of that says 19 that there is an association specifically with file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (497 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 MDS or specifically with cigar smoking. 21 Q. Let me object to responsiveness 22 then. Do you have an opinion in this case that 23 Mr. McCarty's cigar smoke in the distant past 24 played any role or contributing factor in the 25 development of his myelodysplastic syndrome or file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (498 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 250 1 AML? 2 A. I'll say it once again. I do not 3 believe the scientific or medical literature 4 provides specific evidence to suggest or to 5 support a conclusion that cigar smoking is 6 associated with the development of MDS or AML. 7 Q. In cigarette smoke -- the studies 8 that you just referred to as being suggestive of 9 a contributing factor of AML, what is there in 10 cigarette smoke that you believe allows one to 11 say that cigarette smoke causes acute 12 myelogenous leukemia? 13 A. There have been many hypotheses. It 14 has been hypothesized that benzene is a 15 causative agent. However, there are many other 16 agents in cigarette smoke that are potentially 17 associated with bone marrow toxicity. As a 18 matter of fact, there are many compounds in 19 cigarette smoke at much higher concentrations file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (499 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 than benzene that are actually metabolites of 21 benzene in individuals following benzene 22 exposure. So I don't think it's at all clear 23 what the causative agent is in cigarette smoke. 24 There are several substances in cigarette smoke 25 that are potentially toxic to bone marrow. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (500 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 251 1 Q. Do you have any idea what kind of 2 concentrations of benzene one would inhale from 3 cigarette smoke? 4 A. It's really -- there have been 5 speculations and estimates of that. I don't 6 think they are credible or cogent because I 7 don't think that the actual concentration in 8 cigarette smoke is a potential factor in the 9 development of the disease. It's the overall 10 dose and the concentration of delivery which is 11 different than other potential sources of 12 exposure. So I am not -- I really can't provide 13 you with an expert opinion on what the 14 concentration would be delivered to the lung. 15 Q. Do you think benzene in cigarette 16 smoke causes or contribute to AML? 17 A. I don't think that is the factor 18 that -- my personal opinion -- and there is no 19 quantitative evidence supporting the specific file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (501 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 agents or agent -- agent or agents in cigarette 21 smoke that are associated with pathogenesis of 22 AML. So this is basically my opinion as a 23 scientist, but not -- I can't render an informed 24 opinion as to what the -- there's no 25 epidemiology that will allow me to reach a file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (502 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 252 1 conclusion of what is the causal agent. 2 What I'm saying is there are several 3 agents in cigarette smoke that could potentially 4 alter regulation of bone marrow hematopoiesis or 5 that might be potentially toxic, and we simply 6 don't have a basis for understanding the 7 pathogenesis of that mechanism. 8 Q. All right. Sir, have you relied 9 upon any study, publication, information or 10 whatsoever from Mr. Paustenbach -- or 11 Dr. Paustenbach in forming your opinions in this 12 case? 13 A. Specifically no. Dr. Paustenbach 14 has published quantitative estimates of benzene 15 exposure and risk associated with AML. I 16 believe they are consistent with the studies 17 that I've provided here today, but specifically 18 I did not rely on any of his publications, but I 19 think that I could just as easily have produced file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (503 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 a risk analysis that has been published by 21 Dr. Paustenbach that would be consistent with my 22 opinion. 23 Q. Let me object, responsiveness. My 24 question is, for the purpose of our record, it's 25 my understanding you have not relied upon any file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (504 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 253 1 information, study, or publication from 2 Dr. Paustenbach in any way in forming your 3 opinion, even though you would assume some might 4 be consistent with some of these other studies; 5 am I correct about that? 6 A. No, sir. That's not my testimony 7 and that's not what I'm saying. As I said 8 earlier, I've relied on the world literature in 9 general and several articles specifically in 10 rendering my opinion. I brought some that are 11 representative of what I consider to be the 12 state of the art in quantitative epidemiology 13 associated with benzene and the development of 14 AML. 15 I did not bring everything that I've 16 relied upon or that I would consider the basis 17 for my opinion, and that includes certainly at 18 least one publication by Dr. Paustenbach which I 19 didn't provide here today. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (505 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. So you've got one publication from 21 Dr. Paustenbach that you have relied upon in 22 performing your -- in making your opinions in 23 this case? 24 A. You know, I just said I've relied on 25 the world literature, which includes file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (506 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 254 1 publications by Dr. Paustenbach. As I sit here, 2 I can recall one particular assessment that is 3 consistent with my opinion and with the papers 4 that I provided here today. I did not produce 5 it, but in general I'm relying on the literature 6 that's out there, not just specifically and 7 exclusively those that I provided. 8 Q. Well, I mean, help me out here, sir. 9 Are you relying upon Mr. Paustenbach -- or 10 Dr. Paustenbach at all in forming your opinions 11 in this case? 12 MR. SCOTT: Object to -13 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) And if you are, show 14 me the study that you are relying upon. 15 MR. SCOTT: Object to form. 16 A. I'm relying on the world literature 17 related to the epidemiology of benzene, which 18 includes publications by Dr. Paustenbach. 19 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) All right. What I file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (507 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 would ask you to do, sir, you say you've got 21 other publications and studies and information, 22 the world literature that you are relying upon. 23 I'm asking you -- I know you have produced some 24 of it -- to produce to Mr. Scott for me as part 25 of this expert deposition all of the literature file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (508 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 255 1 you are relying upon, whatever it is, whatever 2 is the world literature that you are going to be 3 saying that this is a study that I've relied 4 upon, so I'll know what it is today or sometime 5 before trial of this case. Don't you think 6 that's fair that I know what you relied upon? 7 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 8 the question. World literature would fill up 9 rooms, not boxes, and doesn't make sense. 10 MR. BROWN: Bob, I mean, here's the 11 deal. I get to find out what he has relied upon 12 in forming his opinion. 13 MR. SCOTT: I don't disagree, but 14 are you asking him to give you the world 15 literature? 16 MR. BROWN: I'm asking him to give 17 me what he has relied upon in forming his 18 opinion, whatever that is. 19 A. I produced publications that I file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (509 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 provided today not in specific response to your 21 subpoena but as general support and to 22 illustrate my opinions in this case. I will -23 I reserve the right as an expert to render an 24 opinion on whatever particular literature or 25 evidence that's out there in the world file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (510 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 256 1 literature that you present to me or ask me to 2 review or that anyone else asks me to review. I 3 haven't provided the world literature today as 4 the basis for my opinion, but I do in fact have 5 knowledge of and will respond to individual 6 questions that are related to my opinion that 7 are supported by literature that I did not 8 provide today. 9 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Counsel, I need 10 to change the tape. 11 MR. BROWN: All right. 12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Time is now 13 approximately 5:11 p.m. and we are now off the 14 record. 15 (Discussion off the record.) 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Time is 17 approximately 5:12 p.m. and we are back on the 18 record. 19 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) All right. Sir, file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (511 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 which study from Dr. Dennis Paustenbach have you 21 relied upon in any amount or any way in 22 formulating your opinions in this case? 23 A. Specifically I did not review 24 Dr. Paustenbach's studies in arriving at my 25 opinion in this case. I can recall studies that file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (512 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 257 1 Dr. Paustenbach has performed that are -- that 2 inform with respect to the quantitative 3 epidemiologic assessment of the risk associated 4 with AML following exposure to benzene. I can 5 specifically refer to and provide those studies, 6 but I didn't provide them today. 7 Q. And you've told me at the beginning 8 you brought the studies you thought that you 9 needed and were necessary to express support for 10 the basis of your opinions? 11 A. That are representative, yes. 12 Q. All right. What I'm asking you to 13 do here today is, would you please bring the 14 other studies that you think play a role in your 15 opinions, to provide those as part of your 16 deposition here today. We've requested in the 17 subpoena -- I know there's been objections to 18 them, but I'm asking you to provide any of the 19 studies that you are relying upon as an expert file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (513 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 or any other information that you are relying 21 upon as an expert in this case to express your 22 opinions. Is that fair? 23 MR. SCOTT: There haven't been any 24 objections to studies. Just so we are clear 25 there. I object to the form of the question to file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (514 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 258 1 that extent. 2 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Is that fair that you 3 would provide me with those? 4 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 5 question. 6 A. With respect to my specific opinions 7 in this case and specific literature, I believe 8 that that's reasonable. I don't believe that 9 it's reasonable for you to ask me to provide the 10 world literature on the pathogenesis and 11 development of MDS, AML, every study that has 12 ever been published on benzene or has anything 13 to do with potential development of disease 14 associated with benzene. 15 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) I'm not asking for 16 that. I'm asking for the studies that you are 17 relying upon specifically to express your 18 opinions in this case. 19 A. I think that, yes. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (515 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. Do we have those in the notebook 21 that you provided? 22 A. I could provide some more. I did 23 not do so because I didn't believe that that's 24 what I was asked to do. 25 Q. How many more could you provide or file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (516 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:37 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 259 1 would you provide as being something you 2 specifically relied upon in preparation for your 3 opinion? 4 A. Again, this is what I specifically 5 relied upon. If you are asking me to provide 6 everything in the literature that supports my 7 opinion, that's a totally separate matter. 8 Q. What you've got here in your 9 notebook marked as Exhibit 1 is the complete 10 list of documents that you have specifically 11 relied upon, correct? 12 A. In -- in -- specifically related to 13 this case, but not in terms of my overall 14 opinion with respect to the quantitative risk 15 associated with exposure to benzene and the 16 development of AML. 17 Q. So when we get down to trial and 18 there's questions asked how do -- what do you 19 support your opinions with, Doctor, you are not file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (517 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 going to be telling the jury at that time or 21 telling Mr. Scott at that time, well, I relied 22 upon Dr. Dennis Paustenbach's study and it's 23 very informative, anything like that? 24 A. Specifically -- specifically I'm 25 going to rely on the studies that I've provided file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (518 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 260 1 here. If you or Mr. Scott or anyone else asks 2 me my opinion with respect to any other study, I 3 will provide it. 4 Q. All right. I'll pass the witness 5 and reserve the rest of my time for after 6 Mr. Scott's examination. 7 EXAMINATION 8 BY MR. SCOTT: 9 Q. Dr. Irons, would you tell us a 10 little bit about where you grew up and your 11 educational background. 12 A. I grew up in the San Francisco Bay 13 Area. I attended the University of Pacific and 14 the University of California, San Francisco, for 15 my undergraduate and early graduate training. I 16 attended the University of Rochester School of 17 Medicine and Dentistry for graduate and medical 18 training, and graduated with a Ph.D. in 19 toxicology in 1974. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (519 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. Did you start out as a medical 21 student, then? 22 A. I was in -- I was taking classes in 23 both the school of medicine and the graduate 24 school when I was at the University of Rochester 25 and was undecided as to specifically what file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (520 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 261 1 direction I would take until relatively late in 2 my education. 3 Q. When did that occur when you altered 4 or picked a course as between being a physician 5 and the research course that you've chosen? 6 A. I received a grant from the National 7 Institute of Arthritis, Metabolism, and 8 Digestive Diseases to study pathology as it 9 related to toxicology, and I combined that with 10 training in clinical pathology, anatomic and 11 surgical pathology for a period of approximately 12 three -- between three and four years after 13 finishing my Ph.D. requirements. At the end of 14 that period I decided not to continue medical 15 education but to go into full-time research at 16 that time. 17 Q. Many of us have seen television 18 programs involving pathologists and that sort of 19 thing. Did you do that sort of pathology at any file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (521 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 point in your educational career? 21 A. Yes. That was part and parcel of 22 what I did during that three- to four-year 23 period. I was involved both in research and in 24 training in anatomic and clinical pathology. 25 Q. And what sorts of things would that file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (522 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 262 1 pathology -- that pathology experience include? 2 A. Participating in autopsies, clinical 3 pathology, clinical laboratory studies. I 4 focused on pathology in general but also 5 specific areas of pathology that were defined on 6 the basis of my grant as toxicologic pathology. 7 My focus was on pathology related to toxic 8 exposure, immunopathology, and what is now 9 referred to as hematopathology, but at the time 10 hematopathology was not a recognized discipline. 11 Q. How have toxico -- toxicopathology 12 and hematopathology changed since the years you 13 first studied? 14 A. The classification of diseases has 15 turned over several times. The criteria for the 16 diagnosis of diseases has basically gone from 17 observational and in many cases clinical to 18 primarily a quantitative and laboratory-based 19 process, although certainly morphologic analysis file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (523 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 is still very important in the diagnosis, 21 differential diagnosis of hematopoietic 22 diseases. 23 Q. We are all familiar with the Human 24 Genome Project and genes and chromosomes in 25 particular and what we read in the newspapers file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (524 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 263 1 about those today. How has that changed 2 toxicology and pathology, particularly 3 hematopathology? 4 MR. BROWN: Object to the form. 5 MR. SCOTT: What's the objection? 6 MR. BROWN: It's leading. 7 MR. SCOTT: That's the objection? 8 Q. (BY MR. SCOTT) If that's it, you 9 can answer that question. 10 A. Clinical laboratory, molecular 11 laboratory studies now are the fundamental basis 12 for the differential diagnosis of hematopoietic 13 and lymphoid diseases. Genetic abnormalities, 14 immunophenotypic abnormalities, including flow 15 cytometry, immunohistochemistry, molecular 16 studies looking at specific gene involvement, 17 gene rearrangement, cytogenetics, as well as 18 classic histochemistry and staining are now all 19 integrated into the criteria for classification file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (525 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 of hematopoietic and lymphoid diseases. 21 Q. How did you -- what interested you 22 in the field of toxicology to begin with? 23 A. Understanding -- what I was most 24 interested in was understanding the basis for 25 the development of disease and pathogenesis of file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (526 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 264 1 disease in general, but particularly that 2 associated with exposure to drugs or chemicals. 3 I was fascinated with understanding the 4 mechanism, and I also felt that the study of the 5 effects of drugs and chemicals provided a very 6 powerful tool for understanding the pathogenesis 7 of disease. 8 Q. Do we fully understand today the 9 mechanisms involved in the development of 10 diseases, leukemia, and particularly acute 11 myelogenous leukemia? 12 A. No. We understand a great deal more 13 than we did five years ago, and a tremendous 14 amount more than we did ten years ago. Even so, 15 how it all fits together and what the natural 16 history is and the specific events that occur in 17 the pathogenesis of AML in general and specific 18 AMLs in particular, we still don't have those 19 answers. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (527 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. Before I get on to some of your 21 other experiences, let me ask you about your 22 family. Are you married? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. How long have you been married? 25 A. Over 25 years. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (528 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 265 1 Q. Do you have children, and tell us 2 who your children are and what they are doing 3 these days. 4 A. Yes, I have three children. Katy is 5 a librarian in Tacoma, Seattle area, David is an 6 executive on Madison Avenue, and Sarah is a 217 year-old college student who has just returned 8 from California to Boulder. 9 Q. Let me -- and you live here in 10 Boulder, Colorado; is that correct? 11 A. There's a rumor to that effect. 12 Q. I understand you spend a lot of your 13 time elsewhere from Boulder these days. Can you 14 describe for the jury what your primary job is 15 these days. 16 A. I'm director of the Joint Sino-US 17 Clinical Molecular Laboratory in Shanghai, 18 China. 19 Q. How long have you had that position? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (529 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. Basically since -- officially since 21 2001. 22 Q. And what are your job duties in that 23 position? 24 A. The laboratory is both a clinical 25 laboratory responsible for the diagnosis of file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (530 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 266 1 leukemia and lymphoma and hematopoietic diseases 2 for 31 hospitals in Shanghai and it's also a 3 research laboratory that's conducting a series 4 of studies on the pathogenesis of hematopoietic 5 diseases, different types of leukemia and 6 different types of lymphoid diseases, and is 7 also involved in studies of the health effects 8 of benzene in workers in the workplace. 9 Q. I want to hand you some documents 10 that -11 MR. SCOTT: Darren, you may have 12 marked these. Did you mark the papers, studies 13 and other papers related -- yeah. We called 14 that Exhibit -15 MR. BROWN: 3. 16 Q. (BY MR. SCOTT) 3. Can you describe 17 for us -- if you will go through each of the 18 separate studies, articles, papers that makes up 19 Exhibit 3 for us. Tell us what it is and what file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (531 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 your role with regard to that document is. 21 A. Well, in general these are 22 peer-reviewed publications that we have recently 23 published that present results from our studies 24 in Shanghai. The first one is entitled "Chronic 25 exposure to benzene results in a unique form of file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (532 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 267 1 dysplasia." This is a study that characterizes 2 a very -- a very unique pattern of abnormalities 3 occurring in the bone marrow of a group of 4 individuals that were exposed to -- chronically 5 exposed to very high levels of benzene, and that 6 we recognized in fact was not previously 7 described in terms of the long-term persistent 8 bone marrow pathology that had been described 9 for benzene in the past. 10 Q. What is the unique form of dysplasia 11 that results from chronic exposure to benzene, 12 based on the study -- your study that you 13 described? 14 A. It includes -- it's a specific 15 pattern with respect to the pathologic 16 abnormalities that are prominent in individuals 17 that have been exposed to benzene. Some of 18 these cases correspond to the WHO classification 19 of myelodysplastic syndromes, refractory file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (533 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 cytopenia with multilineage dysplasia. I 21 believe there is one that would qualify as a 22 refractory anemia. Other forms of bone marrow 23 aplasia, many of which previously would have 24 been diagnosed as aplastic anemia in certainly 25 the classic historical literature. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (534 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 268 1 The specific pattern that we see 2 that's unique involves the inflammatory changes 3 that are present, characteristics such as 4 hematophage ptosis, a unique form of 5 eosinophilic precursor abnormalities, dysplasia, 6 a constellation of changes that were found to be 7 consistent for a majority of these individuals 8 that haven't been described together associated 9 with dysplasias in the past. 10 Q. I notice on Table 1 of the Chronic 11 Exposure to Benzene article, they are a listing 12 of 23 -- are these cases -13 A. Yes. 14 Q. -- on Table 1? These are all people 15 who have documented exposure to benzene? 16 A. These are all people who have 17 documented exposure to benzene and who 18 previously have been diagnosed with benzene 19 poisoning, which in China the best way to file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (535 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 describe it is they present -- they have 21 presented -- they presented previously with bone 22 marrow findings consistent with bone marrow 23 suppression associated with benzene exposure at 24 the time that these findings were observed. 25 Q. What levels of exposure to benzene, file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (536 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 269 1 based upon your experience, are necessary for a 2 person to present with bone marrow suppression? 3 A. In general, the literature is 4 consistent or the literature suggests, and 5 this -- the quantitative -- the actual levels of 6 exposure, quantitative levels that have been 7 associated with bone marrow suppression are not 8 as well documented as the epidemiology 9 associated with acute myelogenous leukemia or 10 myeloid leukemia because most of these studies 11 were done before actually that type of 12 epidemiology was even done, and most reported in 13 the literature is anecdotal. 14 Certainly the experience that we 15 have that is provided or reflected in this 16 publication is associated with exposures that 17 are extremely high relative to the levels that 18 we typically associate with the development of 19 AML. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (537 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 With respect to these exposures, I 21 think we -- we describe full shift exposures 22 that average, so this is an average, between 50 23 and 300 parts per million. That's -- that's not 24 ppm-years. That's the average exposure that 25 these individuals were exposed to for any period file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (538 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 270 1 of time, for long periods of time, for many 2 years in many cases. Some of the cumulative 3 exposures are typically in excess of 5,000 part 4 per million years. 5 MR. BROWN: Object to 6 responsiveness. 7 Q. (BY MR. SCOTT) Let's go to the, if 8 we can, the next paper in Exhibit 3. So I would 9 like to move through these and get some 10 description what each one of these papers 11 involves. 12 A. One is the "Prospective study of 174 13 de novo acute myelogenous leukemias according to 14 the WHO classification: subtypes, cytogenetic 15 features and FLT3 mutations." This is 16 basically -- this is our first -- this was our 17 first series reporting on the pattern and 18 specific characteristics of AMLs that have been 19 diagnosed by the laboratory in the general file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (539 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 population, and provide one of the first -21 actually the first characterization, detailed 22 characterization of the pattern of AMLs seen in 23 individuals associated -- who have been 24 diagnosed using the WHO classification. 25 Q. Okay. The WHO classification is a file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (540 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 271 1 relatively new classification for hematopoietic 2 disease; is that correct? 3 A. It was first -- it's been in 4 development for a long time, but it was 5 officially promulgated by the World Health 6 Organization in 2001. 7 Q. Let's go to the next paper, if we 8 could. 9 A. This is a paper that characterizes 10 the prevalence of MDS, myelodysplastic syndrome, 11 subtypes in Shanghai and compares the WHO, World 12 Health Organization, classification with the 13 previous predominant classification that was 14 used, and that was the French, American, British 15 classification. 16 Q. What are the significant factors or 17 findings in this study, Prevalence of MDS 18 subtypes? 19 A. This provided -- this is -- this -- file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (541 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 this paper really provides two pieces of -21 overall two pieces of information that are -22 that have not -- that are unique. One is this 23 is -- this, I believe, is the first direct 24 comparison of the two diagnostic classification 25 schemes in a clinical study. So we used both file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (542 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 272 1 classification schemes in the diagnosis of these 2 cases and compared the prevalence of the 3 individual subtypes based on that 4 classification. 5 This is important with respect to 6 interpreting studies on the incidence of AML, as 7 well as MDS, because the classification of MDS 8 using these different -- using the different 9 classification -- the rubrics that are used, 10 actually redefine the incidence and prevalence 11 of AML as well as MDS because they are on a 12 continuum. 13 So in the case of the WHO 14 classification for the same group of individuals 15 looking at a mixture of cases of myelodysplastic 16 syndrome and AML, with the WHO classification 17 more people have AML than with the FAB 18 classification. So this defines those 19 quantitative differences. This paper does. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (543 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 In addition to which, we uncovered 21 or discovered a very unique prevalence for a 22 type of -- a new classification, a new MDS 23 subtype defined under WHO, refractory cytopenia 24 with multilineage dysplasia. That occurs in a 25 very -- the incidence for it with respect to file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (544 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 273 1 age, the prevalence of this disease in Shanghai, 2 there is a very high prevalence in younger 3 individuals, individuals basically below the age 4 of 30, which is a unique finding and suggests 5 that the pattern of MDS certainly in Shanghai is 6 different than that that's been described in the 7 west. 8 Q. Let's go on to the next paper, if we 9 can. 10 A. The next paper is an abstract that 11 is published in Chinese and I provided a 12 translation for it. That describes a prognostic 13 analysis of, again, a group of cases, 166 cases 14 of MDS, using WHO in China. This was 15 provided -- this was presented at a conference 16 in China as a means of communicating our results 17 to the general medical community in China. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. I have an abstract here that was file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (545 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 presented at an international conference on 21 benzene in Munich in October of 2004, and it is 22 the original -- it's the first presentation of 23 the data that eventually led to our description 24 of benzene-induced dysplasia, BID, and this 25 described our initial findings with respect to a file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (546 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 274 1 group of 18 of the 23 workers that we -- that 2 were the basis for the original publication. 3 And this described the exposure characteristics 4 of the group as well as some of our initial 5 findings. 6 Q. All right. Let's go to the next 7 one. 8 A. I have an abstract that presented 9 the initial findings of the prevalence of MDS 10 using the WHO classification that was published 11 in Blood, American Society of Hematology. More 12 recently we have published an abstract 13 describing the relative prevalence of lymphoid 14 neoplasms in Shanghai and the relative frequency 15 of subtypes of non-Hodgkin lymphoma diagnosed 16 using the WHO classification. To date there are 17 not any quantitative case series that have used 18 the WHO classification previous to this. So 19 this is one of the first studies that describe file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (547 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 the different subtypes of NHL in lymphoid 21 neoplasms used in the WHO classification. 22 Q. All right. 23 A. The last one in this series is an 24 abstract of a presentation that I provided at 25 the International Conference on Malignant file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (548 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 275 1 Lymphoma in Lugano, Switzerland, in 2005, and it 2 describes a very, very rare type of leukemia 3 called aggressive natural killer cell leukemia 4 that we've described in Shanghai. In the world 5 literature over the last 20 years or so, there 6 are a total of maybe slightly less than 100 7 cases ever reported anywhere, and I believe as 8 of now we have somewhere around ten to twelve 9 that we've diagnosed in Shanghai in just the 10 last couple of years. 11 Q. Generally, what -- what is the 12 number of cases of lymphohematopoietic disease 13 you and your group have observed or seen in the 14 Shanghai health study today? 15 A. If you look at all hematopoietic and 16 lymphoid diseases, not just AML per se or its 17 subtypes or what historically has been referred 18 to as NHL, but virtually all hematopoietic 19 diseases, it's on the order of -- I think the file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (549 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 last, my last -- last time I looked at it, it 21 was about 3,000, 3,200 cases. 22 Q. We are familiar with publications 23 done by investigators, specifically Dr. Hayes, 24 Dr. Rothman, and Dr. Linet and others that have 25 worked with the NCI out of China as well. Are file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (550 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 276 1 you familiar with the series of papers or 2 studies that I'm talking about? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What is the number of cases that 5 they report they have seen, that group has seen? 6 A. Well, the cohorts for those studies, 7 which means the total number of individuals that 8 were defined within their study criteria, not 9 diseases but individuals, was very, very large, 10 on the order of 30,000 plus, 33,000. The actual 11 number of cases of so-called NHL or AML that are 12 in those -- or MDS in those studies is much 13 smaller. The total number of NHLs reported in 14 that study I believe is 17, of which 14 were 15 associated with exposure to benzene and three 16 were in their control group. I think their 17 total number of AMLs was on the order of 33. I 18 may be off on that by one or two. 19 Q. Again, how does that compare with file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (551 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 the number of NHLs and AMLs that your group has 21 seen? 22 A. Their study design is basically a 23 cohort study, which looks at a defined segment 24 of the population, compares exposure, and then 25 looks at the incidence of disease. We have a file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (552 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 277 1 totally different design. Their study was a 2 retrospective study that looked at historic 3 exposure and historic diagnosis. Our study is 4 prospective. It's based on concurrent -5 previous concurrent, which means present 6 exposure, and looks at diagnosis today, and also 7 follow-up and prognosis of cases after initial 8 diagnosis. 9 Q. I know there are some other papers 10 in Exhibit 3. Let's be sure we've talked about 11 all of those. They may not be studies or 12 abstracts, but what else is in Exhibit 3? 13 A. I have provided two descriptions 14 that I have that -- that in response to 15 Mr. Brown's request for documents, that describe 16 the laboratory that I prepared in support of 17 efforts of the laboratory to expand its research 18 and funding base. 19 Q. What role does Fudan University play file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (553 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 in the studies and the work that you're doing in 21 China now? 22 A. Fudan University is where the 23 laboratory is located. I am a member of the 24 faculty at Fudan University. So the clinical 25 and research operations of the laboratory are file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (554 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 278 1 basically conducted under the auspices and at 2 Fudan University. 3 Q. What role does the University of 4 Colorado Health Sciences Center in Denver play 5 in the studies and investigations you are 6 working on now? 7 A. The University of Colorado Health 8 Science Center is the lead institution in terms 9 of the research studies and also provides 10 support both in terms of training and technical 11 expertise in support of the clinical operation 12 in Shanghai. 13 Q. Have you learned Chinese as part of 14 your efforts with this work, or have you learned 15 Chinese? 16 A. I'm not a Chinese scholar, but I 17 have a passable knowledge of Mandarin and am 18 China-proof. I can survive in China in 19 Mandarin. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (555 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. We've talked about the papers 21 related to your current work. How many papers 22 have you authored regarding -- authored or 23 co-authored regarding generally the subject of 24 benzene over your 30-plus-year history, career? 25 A. Probably between 150 and 160. I'm file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (556 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 279 1 not sure exactly. 2 Q. How many papers have you authored or 3 co-authored regarding lymphohematopoietic 4 diseases, understanding there may be some 5 overlap? 6 A. There is -- there is -- there is a 7 great deal of overlap. I would say I've 8 probably published on the order roughly of 160 9 publications. I would say 80 to 90 percent 10 involve benzene and 99 percent involve 11 hematopoietic or lymphoid diseases. I did some 12 earlier work on the liver and liver toxicity and 13 methods of quantitative analysis, but certainly 14 the vast majority of my career has been spent 15 focused on understanding the pathogenesis and 16 cause of hematopoietic and lymphoid diseases. 17 Q. Have you edited any books regarding 18 the subject of benzene or which deal with the 19 subject of benzene and lymphohematopoietic file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (557 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 diseases? 21 A. Yes. Toxicology of the Blood and 22 Bone Marrow is a book that I edited and authored 23 many years ago. 24 Q. Mr. Brown mentioned that the authors 25 of Casarett and Doull or the editors of Casarett file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (558 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 280 1 and Doull had cited some of your work in their 2 textbook on toxicology. Have you appeared -3 has your work appeared in other textbooks and 4 scientific publications? 5 A. Yes. Some of which I've authored, 6 some of which I haven't. 7 Q. Can you give us some idea of the 8 journal, the professional or scientific journals 9 that your work has appeared in? 10 A. The journal Blood, Proceedings of 11 the National Academy of Sciences, Journal of 12 Clinical Investigation, Toxicology and Applied 13 Pharmacology, Journal of Experimental Pathology, 14 Journal of Immunology, International Journal of 15 Experimental Hematology, Leukemia, Leukemia 16 Research, International Journal of Hematology, 17 European Journal of Hematology. 18 Q. Mr. Brown marked as Exhibit 2 to 19 this deposition your curriculum vitae. Is that file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (559 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 a pretty good summary of your educational 21 experience, your work experience, your 22 scientific publications and endeavors over your 23 career? 24 A. I think so, yes. 25 Q. Have you done work with -- Mr. Brown file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (560 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 281 1 mentioned NTP, National Toxicology Program. 2 Have you done work with any of these 3 organizations: NTP, National Institute of 4 Environmental Health Sciences, Occupational 5 Safety and Health Administration, Environmental 6 Protection Agency, any of those sorts of 7 scientific -- governmental advisory or 8 regulatory agencies? 9 MR. BROWN: Object to form. 10 MR. SCOTT: Is it just that I've got 11 them all together? 12 MR. BROWN: I will withdraw it if he 13 makes it clear in his answer. 14 MR. SCOTT: That's good. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. (BY MR. SCOTT) You need to be more 17 complete than that or I've got to start all 18 over. 19 A. Earlier in my career I served as a file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (561 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 consultant for the National Toxicology Program 21 on pathology working groups and in the 22 evaluation and peer review of chronic analyst 23 studies. I've served as a consultant to the 24 Environmental Protection Agency and a member of 25 their scientific advisory panel, scientific file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (562 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 282 1 review panel. I have served as a -- in that 2 role for a variety of organizations. What other 3 organizations did you mention? 4 Q. OSHA. 5 A. I have not specifically done any 6 work for OSHA. 7 Q. Have you received any awards from 8 any of those organizations? 9 A. I've received a certificate of 10 commendation from the Environmental Protection 11 Agency for my work on their scientific review 12 panel. 13 Q. Mr. Brown mentioned earlier Dr. Yin 14 and asked if you were aware of the Yin study. 15 How long have you known Dr. Yin? 16 A. Longer than I would care to admit. 17 It certainly dates both of us. 18 Q. And specifically how did you first 19 come into contact or meet Dr. Yin? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (563 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. I met Dr. Yin at a British Royal 21 Society of Medicine -- at the British Royal 22 Society of Medicine London in 19 -- I'm sorry, 23 this is really dating me. Probably 1980, maybe 24 '80. In that general area. 25 Q. Other than where you met him, have file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (564 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 283 1 you had any professional association with him 2 over the years? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Can you describe that for us. 5 A. We've been colleagues. Obviously we 6 have common interests in China, he being Chinese 7 and me spending a lot of time there. And I've 8 been in China since -- my first trip to China 9 was in 1988 at his invitation, and we've been 10 colleagues. We obviously have a common interest 11 in benzene. We agree on some things. We 12 disagree on others. We've had a continuing 13 relationship now for a long time. 14 Q. Let me scroll back a little bit 15 here. You also discussed a little bit in answer 16 to Mr. Brown's questions about the peer review 17 process, and I want to explore that a little 18 bit. You sort of quickly answered and 19 enthusiastically answered that you had had file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (565 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 studies or articles which had not been accepted 21 by journals. I want to talk about the peer 22 review process. First, does any good scientist 23 who publishes and investigates have articles or 24 studies that are not immediately accepted by a 25 particular journal? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (566 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 284 1 MR. BROWN: Object to form. 2 A. My -- certainly my experience and my 3 knowledge is that most scientists have had the 4 unenviable experience of having their work 5 critiqued and/or not accepted upon initial 6 presentation. I would object to your 7 characterization of my response to Mr. Brown as 8 enthusiastic. It's just a -- it's a part and 9 parcel of the scientific process. 10 Q. (BY MR. SCOTT) When a journal -11 when a scientific journal does not accept a 12 study or an article, what kinds of reasons are 13 those decisions based upon? 14 A. Well, as I said before, it can be 15 lack of topical interest. It can be lack of 16 relevance with respect to the specific focus of 17 the journal. A journal may decide that a 18 particular manuscript or article is way too 19 specific or deals with too specific a subject file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (567 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 matter than the journal is comfortable -- or is 21 typically published, and they will recommend 22 that you send it to a more specialized journal. 23 Sometimes a journal is -- sometimes 24 the peer review process results in reviewers who 25 object to usually design and/or interpretation, file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (568 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 285 1 usually design, of data and whether or not the 2 methods and the data appropriately support the 3 conclusions of the author. That is subject to 4 individual opinion, and the peer review process 5 is one that allows for usually more than one but 6 certainly one or more scientists with 7 independent -- or independent of the work to 8 render an opinion. If an editor decides that 9 those criticisms are significant enough, he may 10 decide not to accept the paper or to suggest 11 revisions, which is usually up to the individual 12 editor. This is a process that's been in place 13 for well over 100 years. 14 Q. Have you served as a peer reviewer 15 for scientific journals such as those that you 16 mentioned to us earlier? 17 A. I've served as a peer reviewer, as 18 an editor, and as a member of editorial boards. 19 I am not currently on any editorial boards file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (569 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 because my time doesn't permit, but I still 21 review publications as a peer reviewer. 22 Q. When you served as an editor, did 23 you make those decisions about whether a 24 particular submission met the topical interest 25 of the journal, study design was something that file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (570 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 286 1 the journal was interested in, that sort of 2 thing? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. You also told Mr. Brown when he 5 asked you about recent instances in which you 6 testified that, quote, I'm busy. What did you 7 mean by that? 8 A. I spend most of my time in Shanghai. 9 Certainly more than half my time, probably on 10 the order of 60, 70 percent. I'm also a member 11 of the faculty here at the University of 12 Colorado Health Sciences Center and I teach. 13 That doesn't leave much time for me to engage in 14 consultation activities. And so for the last 15 certainly couple of years, my consulting 16 activities have been limited. 17 Q. How many times have you testified by 18 deposition during the year 2006? 19 A. None. This is -- this is my first. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (571 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. Same question for 2006 and testified 21 in a trial? 22 A. None. 23 Q. Just so that it's clear here, based 24 upon the state of scientific evidence and 25 literature, what is the level of exposure to file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (572 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 287 1 benzene which has been demonstrated to cause 2 acute myelogenous leukemia? 3 MR. BROWN: Object to form. 4 MR. SCOTT: What's the objection? 5 MR. BROWN: Incompetent, lacks 6 foundation. 7 MR. SCOTT: My question is 8 incompetent or the witness? 9 MR. BROWN: I'm not saying that. 10 I'm saying it lacks foundation. You didn't set 11 up any foundation for your question. 12 Q. (BY MR. SCOTT) Okay. Do you 13 remember the question? 14 A. Could you repeat it. 15 Q. You bet. I have it written down. 16 Based upon the state of scientific evidence and 17 literature, what is the level of exposure to 18 benzene which has been demonstrated to cause 19 acute myelogenous leukemia? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (573 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 MR. BROWN: Same objection. 21 A. I don't think there is any question 22 that the scientific and medical literature 23 supports a causal association with respect to 24 benzene and the development of acute myeloid 25 leukemia at concentrations of 100 ppm-years or file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (574 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 288 1 higher. I also believe that quantitative 2 epidemiology studies suggest that accumulative 3 exposure maybe as low as 60 and in one case as 4 low as 45 ppm-years. In general, I think that 5 the literature support -- I think the most 6 likely cumulative exposure that's associated 7 with the development of acute myelogenous 8 leukemia falls somewhere in between those 9 extremes, but I do believe that the literature 10 doesn't support a significant excess risk of AML 11 below 45 ppm-years. 12 Q. (BY MR. SCOTT) Is there a particular 13 paper or study or investigation that you rely 14 upon in that regard? 15 A. Two that -- two that I think inform 16 with respect to that, the lower cumulative 17 metric, one would be the Hayes study associated 18 with AML or acute -- acute nonlymphocytic 19 leukemia, which is the China study. The other file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (575 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 is a case control study by Rushton, Leslie 21 Rushton, that reaches a conclusion that in any 22 case, there's no evidence of an increased risk 23 of AML below 45 ppm-years. 24 Q. Are there published studies -25 reliable published studies in the scientific file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (576 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 289 1 literature which indicate a higher level of 2 cumulative exposure as the lower bound of those 3 associated with the development of AML? 4 A. Yes, I believe so. I believe that 5 certainly -- certainly there's one quantitative 6 exposure assessment that's been published by 7 Dr. Wong associated with the -- again, an 8 analysis of a pliofilm factory, which is the 9 basis for most -- is the first epidemiology 10 study demonstrating a quantitative relationship. 11 That suggests an increased risk significantly 12 above 100 parts per million years. I personally 13 think that that may be too high. 14 The actual pliofilm study, which was 15 originally authored by Dr. Infante and 16 reanalyzed by Dr. Rinsky and coworkers, 17 demonstrated an excess risk on the order -- that 18 was significant, on the order of 60 ppm-years. 19 Q. When did a consensus develop among file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (577 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 the medical and scientific community that 21 benzene was a human carcinogen? 22 MR. BROWN: Object to form. 23 A. The relationship between benzene 24 and -- benzene as a carcinogen, which 25 specifically relates to acute myeloid leukemia, file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (578 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 290 1 was the subject of controversy for a long time, 2 primarily because there were no quantitative 3 studies, and the appreciation that something 4 that could cause bone marrow suppression could 5 also cause leukemia really was not a generally 6 held medical or scientific theory until the -7 until we had sufficient experience with 8 chemotherapeutic and radiation treatment in the 9 therapy of other cancers. This occurred -10 these studies began to appear in the '60s, in 11 the late '60s, and a consensus with respect to a 12 defined quantitative risk of AML associated with 13 benzene occurred in the mid to late 1970s. 14 Q. (BY MR. SCOTT) When did the U.S. 15 government first conclude that benzene was a 16 cause of acute myeloid leukemia? 17 MR. BROWN: Object to form. 18 A. If by that -19 Q. (BY MR. SCOTT) Let me change my file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (579 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 question because it's not -- it's a good 21 objection. When did the U.S. government or any 22 agency of the U.S. government first publish 23 anything that -- in which the conclusion that 24 benzene was a cause of acute myeloid leukemia 25 was published? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (580 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 291 1 MR. BROWN: Object to form. 2 A. As I sit here, I'm not sure I recall 3 the specific date, but I think it was on or 4 about 1980. I could be wrong. 5 MR. BROWN: Object to 6 responsiveness. 7 Q. (BY MR. SCOTT) What does -- are you 8 familiar with the ATSDR? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What is that? 11 A. It's a -- it's basically a document 12 put out by the federal government that 13 summarizes the knowledge with respect to health 14 effects, what's known about the adverse effects 15 of chemicals and specifically benzene. 16 Q. And it is not independent research; 17 is that correct? The ATSDR on benzene, for 18 instance, is not independent research? 19 MR. BROWN: Object to form. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (581 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. No, there's no original research. 21 It's a compilation of studies and a summary of 22 the official policies of government and various 23 agencies relating to benzene and its toxicity. 24 So it provides a summary of literature as well 25 as summarizes the regulatory policies that file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (582 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 292 1 relate to benzene. 2 Q. (BY MR. SCOTT) I want to turn now 3 specifically to the case of Mr. Oliver McCarty. 4 What opinions have you reached regarding the -5 whether or not there is evidence, sufficient 6 evidence to conclude, based upon the scientific 7 literature and the information you've received 8 about Mr. McCarty, as to whether or not benzene 9 exposure was a cause of his MDS and acute 10 myelogenous leukemia? 11 A. Based upon my -- excuse me -- based 12 on my review of the data made available to me in 13 terms of Mr. McCarty's alleged exposure to 14 benzene, as well as my review of the medical 15 records and the diagnosis of his disease, it's 16 my opinion that there is insufficient evidence 17 to conclude that in fact his disease was caused 18 by exposure to benzene. 19 Q. Now, Mr. Brown asked you some file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (583 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 questions related to your conversation with 21 Mr. Plisko earlier this week. Had you reached 22 the conclusions which you have just stated prior 23 to your conversation with Mr. Plisko? 24 MR. BROWN: Object to form. 25 A. Yes, based upon the other factors file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (584 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 293 1 that I've discussed today that I evaluated with 2 respect to Mr. McCarty's disease. 3 Q. (BY MR. SCOTT) You have reviewed the 4 deposition of Frank Parker. Did Mr. Parker do a 5 quantitative exposure assessment for 6 Mr. McCarty? 7 A. Not in any of the documents that 8 I've read. 9 Q. That would include his deposition; 10 is that correct? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. What is the incidence of AML in the 13 general population, U.S. population, just give 14 or take? 15 A. It's been a while since I looked at 16 that. 17 Q. Sure. 18 A. In the general population it's less 19 than -- I believe it's less than ten per file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (585 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 100,000, but I have not reviewed that. I 21 haven't reviewed certainly any recent incidence 22 literature on that. 23 Q. Where would you look -- if, for 24 instance, we were interested in how many cases 25 of acute myeloid leukemia, new cases of acute file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (586 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 294 1 myeloid leukemia we would see in the United 2 States this year, where would you look for that 3 information? 4 A. Basically what's referred to in the 5 trade as the SEER data, SEER study, which is a 6 compilation of incidence data provided by -7 provided from around the country that I believe 8 is sponsored by the U.S. government. 9 Q. Is it true that the vast majority of 10 cases of acute myeloid leukemia in this country 11 are -- occur to people who have no occupational 12 exposure to benzene? 13 MR. BROWN: Object to form. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. (BY MR. SCOTT) Where would one look 16 for that sort of information? 17 A. If you look at the -- basically if 18 you look at the incidence of AML in the general 19 population, the vast majority are referred to as file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (587 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 de novo, which means no -- no known cause or 21 etiology. That -- there are two different types 22 in general: those that are de novo and those 23 that are referred to in general as secondary. 24 Secondary means that there's some 25 association with an etiology that's known -- a file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (588 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 295 1 cause, an exposure or an agent that has been 2 associated with the -- previously with the 3 development of AML. 4 The most frequently encountered 5 secondary AMLs are associated with chemotherapy, 6 with radiation. That constitutes the vast 7 majority of secondary AMLs that are reported in 8 the United States. The incidence of AML related 9 to benzene exposure is most reliably determined 10 by looking at the quantitative epidemiology 11 studies that have been published on the subject. 12 Q. You mentioned earlier a report from 13 IMPATH Labs related to the observance of 14 multiple ring sideroblasts. What is the 15 significance of ring sideroblasts with regard to 16 Mr. McCarty's case and your opinions? 17 A. Ring sideroblasts are a morphologic 18 feature that is associated with certain forms of 19 myelodysplastic syndrome, primarily those file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (589 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 associated with, if not exclusively, de novo 21 MDS, MDS not associated with secondary exposure. 22 And certainly in the case of benzene, previous 23 descriptions of MDS and AML that have been 24 associated with benzene don't provide evidence 25 of the presence of ring sideroblasts, which is, file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (590 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 296 1 I think, significant in that ring sideroblasts 2 are very frequently -- refractory anemia with 3 ring sideroblasts and the presence of ring 4 sideroblasts in MDS are very frequently found in 5 the United States. 6 Q. Let me -- and I don't mean this in a 7 critical way at all, but just to see if I can 8 put it in plain English so I will understand 9 it -- is that the same thing as saying that in 10 the studies in which people who have been 11 exposed to benzene have been observed to develop 12 myelodysplastic syndrome, that the scientists 13 have not observed ring sideroblasts? 14 MR. BROWN: Object to form. 15 Q. (BY MR. SCOTT) If I've said it 16 wrong -- I'm trying to get this into more plain 17 language. 18 A. Yes. I specifically don't know of 19 any cases that have been reported, and if file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (591 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 they -- if there are cases, they are vanishingly 21 few. 22 MR. BROWN: Object to 23 responsiveness. 24 Q. (BY MR. SCOTT) In opposition to 25 that, in those cases where people with file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (592 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 297 1 myelodysplastic syndrome -- who have developed 2 myelodysplastic syndrome have no known 3 occupational exposure to benzene, is the finding 4 of ring sideroblasts somewhat common? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. I think the last question I have is, 7 you mentioned, and I think you said 3,000 cases 8 of -- that the Shanghai health study or JCML Lab 9 had seen of some lymphohematopoietic cancer or 10 MDS. How many of those cases have you 11 personally been involved in the evaluation of, 12 in the diagnosis of? 13 MR. BROWN: Object to form. 14 A. All of them. 15 Q. (BY MR. SCOTT) What is your 16 involvement in that -- Mr. Brown asked you 17 questions earlier about whether you could 18 diagnose disease. How does that fit with what 19 you just told me about your involvement in the file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (593 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 JCML evaluations? 21 A. In China, in JCML, I'm director of 22 the laboratory, both clinical and the research 23 arms of the laboratory. I'm responsible for the 24 overall management and I personally sign out 25 cases based on my evaluation of the clinical file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (594 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 298 1 laboratory data and the histopathology. 2 Q. I believe that's all I have. 3 MR. BROWN: You got one more minute 4 left. 5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 6 approximately 6:11 p.m., and we are now off the 7 record. 8 (Discussion off the record.) 9 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 10 approximately 6:15 p.m. and we are back on the 11 record. 12 EXAMINATION 13 BY MR. BROWN: 14 Q. Dr. Irons, is it impossible to have a 15 benzene-related AML where there is some ring 16 sideroblasts present, even when there is a 17 myelodysplastic syndrome transformation to AML 18 with a loss of chromosome 5? 19 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (595 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 the question. 21 A. I'm sorry. Could you repeat that. 22 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Yes, sir. Is it 23 impossible to have a benzene-related AML where 24 there are some ring sideroblasts present even 25 when there is a myelodysplastic syndrome file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (596 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 299 1 transformation into AML with a loss of 2 chromosome 5? 3 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 4 the question. 5 A. I can't say that anything is 6 impossible. As a scientist I can't say that. I 7 can't prove a negative, as I've said before. 8 What I -- what my opinion is, is that there are 9 no cases that I know of in which those criteria 10 are met. 11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Doctor, would you 12 please wear the microphone. 13 THE DEPONENT: Sorry. 14 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) All right. So that 15 we get your answer good on the tape, you can't 16 say it's impossible, correct? 17 A. I can't say -- as a scientist I 18 can't offer an opinion that anything is 19 impossible. I can't say that it's impossible. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (597 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 My opinion is based upon the fact that I'm not 21 aware of any cases in which those specific 22 features are present in a case that's been 23 previously associated with benzene exposure. 24 Q. Are you aware of any studies out 25 there that say if you have ring sideroblasts, file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (598 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 300 1 there is no way that the leukemia or 2 myelodysplastic syndrome can be related to 3 benzene exposure? 4 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 5 question. 6 A. As I said, I have no -- I can't say 7 that it's impossible. There are no studies that 8 say -- there are virtually no studies that say 9 anything is impossible. That's not the nature 10 of scientific inquiry. 11 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Are there any studies 12 that address ring sideroblasts being present in 13 AML and whether or not benzene is a particular 14 cause of it? 15 A. Only by its absence as a feature 16 described in the cases. 17 Q. So specifically there is no study, 18 correct? 19 A. No, that would be -- that's file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (599 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 virtually unheard of. 21 Q. You said you reached your 22 conclusions and opinions about Mr. McCarty's 23 disease and its cause prior to your conversation 24 with Mr. Plisko, correct? 25 A. I reached -- yes, I did. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (600 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 301 1 Q. That's what you testified to 2 Mr. Scott just now? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. So you didn't need any type of 5 exposure assessment by anyone to reach your 6 conclusions and opinions in this case, did you? 7 A. That's not -- that's not a fair 8 description of my testimony or my opinions. 9 Q. Sir, let me just ask you. You 10 said -11 MR. SCOTT: Let him finish, please. 12 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) You said you didn't 13 need Mr. Plisko's quantitative exposure 14 assessment to reach your opinions, correct? 15 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 16 the question. 17 A. I testified that I had reached my 18 conclusions based -- with respect to the 19 likelihood that Mr. McCarty's AML was associated file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (601 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 with benzene exposure based on the evidence that 21 I had prior to my discussion with Mr. Plisko. 22 Subsequent to that discussion, I also am relying 23 on that quantitative exposure assessment. But 24 prior to that, in the absence of a quantitative 25 exposure assessment, I had reached an opinion file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (602 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 302 1 based on the nature and the characteristics of 2 Mr. McCarty's disease. 3 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Let me object to 4 responsiveness. You reached your conclusions 5 and opinions about Mr. McCarty's disease and its 6 cause prior to your conversation with Mr. Plisko 7 where he gave you a quantitative exposure 8 assessment on Mr. McCarty's benzene exposure, 9 correct? 10 A. Yes, that's correct. 11 Q. And so by common sense, anybody can 12 see you didn't need Mr. Plisko's exposure 13 assessment for Mr. McCarty to form your opinion 14 that Mr. McCarty -- that his AML and his 15 myelodysplastic syndrome were not related to 16 exposure to benzene, correct? 17 A. In the absence of a quantitative 18 exposure assessment, I have an opinion with 19 respect to the characteristics and features of file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (603 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Mr. McCarty's disease and whether or not the 21 literature related to exposure to benzene is 22 associated with those characteristics. 23 Independent of that and in addition 24 to that, I have an opinion with respect to the 25 likelihood -- the same likelihood that includes file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (604 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 303 1 a quantitative exposure assessment. But in the 2 absence of an exposure assessment, I'm still 3 prepared to offer an opinion with respect to the 4 characteristics and features of Mr. McCarty's 5 disease and its presentation. 6 Q. That's the same as saying you don't 7 need Mr. Plisko's notes or the handwritten notes 8 you made from your conversation or anything he 9 told you to come up with your opinions about 10 Mr. McCarty and his disease, correct? 11 A. I have an opinion with respect to 12 the likelihood of Mr. McCarty's disease in the 13 absence of a quantitative exposure assessment 14 and in the presence of a quantitative exposure 15 assessment. It's the same opinion, but it's 16 based on those different pieces of information. 17 Q. There was some discussion about your 18 work in the area of pathology. Let me ask you, 19 sir, in the United States if you signed off on a file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (605 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 diagnosing -- or a diagnosis of a condition 21 based on a bone marrow chromosomal study or 22 analysis, for instance, would you be in 23 violation of the laws that prohibit the 24 unlicensed practice of medicine? 25 A. Could you repeat the question. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (606 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 304 1 Q. Yes, sir. If you signed off on a 2 diagnosis of a patient who had an abnormal 3 morphology study or chromosomal analysis, you 4 would be in violation of the laws of the United 5 States that prohibit the unlicensed practice of 6 medicine, correct? 7 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 8 question. 9 A. If I did? 10 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Yes. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Are you a nosologist? 13 A. No. 14 Q. There's some confusion I had 15 about -- I think it was paper 5 where you were 16 asked how many lymphohematopoietic cases in 17 Shanghai had you reviewed to date, and I think 18 your answer was about 3,000, 3,200 cases; is 19 that correct? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (607 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. To date, yes. 21 Q. All right. And then, sort of 22 comparing apples and oranges, you were asked 23 about the other cohort by I think Mr. Yin, 24 Mr. Hayes, and said that that was about 33,000 25 total in the cohort, correct? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (608 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 305 1 A. My study is not a cohort study. 2 Q. I understand. 3 A. Well, you said other cohort. It's 4 not a cohort study. 5 Q. You said the cohort in the other 6 study was a 33,000-member cohort. 7 A. The Yin study has a cohort. It's a 8 different study design. It has a total of 9 33,000 individuals, not 33,000 cases of disease. 10 Q. I understand that. What I wanted to 11 get to is, you weren't asked by Mr. Scott about 12 how many total lymphohematopoietic cases there 13 were in that 33,000 cohort; you were only asked 14 how many cases of NHL, AML, and myelodysplastic 15 syndrome. Can you tell me how many cases of 16 lymphohematopoietic disease were in the cohort 17 of 33,000? 18 A. Total? 19 Q. Yes. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (609 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. As I sit here, I can't recall 21 specifically. I can't recall specifically. It 22 may be twice as many. I don't recall. 23 MR. SCOTT: Twice as -- I'm sorry. 24 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) With regard to your 25 opinions on the minimal -- or the minimum level file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (610 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 306 1 at which somebody would develop AML as a result 2 of benzene exposure, and you've said 45 3 ppm-years is the lowest number you've heard 4 of -- is that correct? 5 A. That's the lowest level for which I 6 believe there is quantitative epidemiology to 7 support an increased risk associated with AML. 8 Q. All right. Have you seen, and I 9 know you have, the Australian study which says 10 that levels below 5 parts per million have 11 resulted in leukemias? 12 A. I don't believe that that is a fair 13 conclusion. I have seen the Australian 14 Healthwatch study and I provided the most recent 15 publication in my production here. I don't 16 believe that's an accurate characterization of 17 the results of that study. 18 Q. What is your understanding of the 19 results of that study in terms -- when it says file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (611 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 levels below 5 parts per million was associated 21 with causing leukemia? 22 A. I don't believe that I can reach 23 that conclusion. I have here the most recent 24 publication and summary of the update of that 25 study and the conclusions that are reached in file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (612 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 307 1 it. And the final conclusion of the authors is 2 that it's uncertain whether benzene exposures, 3 particularly past levels of exposure, have been 4 high enough to cause acute nonlymphocytic 5 anemia, which is AML. 6 Q. There is nowhere in the study where 7 you could discern or detect that the authors 8 were suggesting that exposure below 5 parts per 9 million were contributing to leukemia or other 10 cancers of the blood or hematopoietic system? 11 A. This is the most recent publication 12 from this group and constitutes the current 13 conclusions of the authors with respect to the 14 sum total research conducted in that study. At 15 the present time there -- that's the conclusion 16 that the authors have reached. 17 Q. That's an Exxon-funded study, 18 correct? 19 A. I couldn't tell you. I believe that file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (613 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 the Australian Healthwatch is supported by a 21 variety of different sponsors, but I couldn't 22 tell you specifically whether Exxon is 23 supporting them or not. 24 Q. When you testified in the case in 25 2003, do you remember testifying that it was an file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (614 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 308 1 Exxon-funded study? 2 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 3 the question. 4 A. No, and I don't believe at the time 5 I -- at this point, I don't recall knowing 6 specifically whether it was Exxon-funded or 7 funded by someone else. I believe that it 8 probably says somewhere in this document what 9 its support is. 10 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) It should, shouldn't 11 it? 12 A. It's supported by the Australian 13 petroleum industry, which I would conclude 14 probably includes Exxon, but doesn't say 15 specifically. 16 Q. If the study did in fact find 17 originally that leukemias were found in excess 18 at exposure levels below 5 parts per million, 19 that would have been a finding that Exxon and file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (615 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 the other members of the petroleum industry in 21 Australia would not have liked, correct? 22 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 23 the question. 24 A. I can't speak for any particular 25 company or any individual in any particular file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (616 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 309 1 company with respect to what they would have 2 liked or disliked. 3 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Well, you've got 4 common sense, don't you, sir? Industry, 5 companies don't want there to be publications 6 out there finding that excess leukemias at low 7 levels because it causes them to spend money, 8 doesn't it? 9 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 10 the question. Come on, this is just argument 11 and harassment, Darren. This isn't an expert 12 subject. 13 MR. BROWN: Yes, it is. 14 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 15 the question. 16 A. I believe that's very overly 17 simplistic and not realistic. I think by the 18 same token that a company may not -- or any 19 individual in the company may not be happy to file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (617 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 hear that exposure to a given chemical at a 21 given level causes a disease, I think that 22 responsible individuals within any company want 23 to know what in fact the relationship is between 24 exposure to an agent or a chemical or a 25 workplace condition and the development of the file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (618 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 310 1 disease. 2 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) And money has nothing 3 to do with it in your opinion; is that correct? 4 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 5 question. 6 A. Money has nothing to do with it as 7 far as I'm concerned, in my opinion. 8 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) This is not actually 9 an update of the Australian Healthwatch study; 10 that's a completely different study; isn't it, 11 sir? 12 A. No, this is the same group, I 13 believe. It's defined as Healthwatch, 14 Australian Healthwatch. 15 Q. You are citing the update of 16 "Mortality and Cancer Incidence in the 17 Australian Petroleum Industry Cohort" by R.T. 18 Gunn, correct? 19 A. Yes. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (619 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. It's your testimony under oath that 21 that is an update of the original Australian 22 study? 23 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 24 question. 25 A. I'm reading what it says. It says file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (620 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 311 1 here, "The Australian petroleum industry 2 surveillance program Healthwatch was established 3 in 1980," and then goes on to describe the 4 history of the cohort and that this is an 5 update. 6 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) You agree that the 7 Yin study differs with you in terms of what the 8 lowest required levels of exposure are to 9 develop leukemia, correct? 10 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 11 question. 12 A. Specifically if by the Yin study you 13 mean the studies published in collaboration 14 between the Chinese and the National Cancer 15 Institute, it's typically referred to in terms 16 of the exposure assessment provided in the Hayes 17 analysis, no. I believe that the Hayes study 18 provides -- if you take the Hayes study on face 19 value, it provides evidence of a significant file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (621 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 excess risk above 45 ppm-years. 21 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) It also says that 22 excess leukemias were found at levels of 23 exposure below 10 parts per million, correct? 24 A. It refers to the findings of 25 individual cases for which were characterized file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (622 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 312 1 average exposures. Again, an average exposure 2 is not a quantitative exposure or a time-related 3 average and includes, certainly within a 4 description, individuals who may have been 5 exposed at much higher levels. 6 Q. Sir, with regard to the amount of 7 work that you have done over the last 15 or 16 8 years serving as an expert for defendant oil 9 companies and chemical companies in litigation, 10 with regard to your history of working at the 11 Chemical Industry Institute of Toxicology which 12 was funded by industry, do you feel like you 13 have any conflict of interest whatsoever in 14 doing the Shanghai study, particularly when you 15 have testified, as has Otto Wong, time and time 16 again that benzene exposure only at high levels 17 can cause certain diseases? 18 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 19 question. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (623 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 A. I don't believe that characterizes 21 my opinions or my testimony. And I certainly 22 believe that my publication record speaks for 23 itself, and the design and conduct of the 24 Shanghai health study is independent of the 25 sponsors, as is required by U.S. and Chinese law file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (624 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 313 1 and has been adequately documented. 2 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) How much have the 3 sponsors, the five petroleum company sponsors, 4 contributed to the study thus far? 5 A. Total, which is not -- which is not 6 just the studies that I'm responsible for in the 7 laboratory, I believe is probably on the order 8 of $23,000,000. Specifically I believe the 9 clinical and research aspects of the study that 10 I'm responsible for, the overall budget has been 11 on the order of 19,000,000. 12 Q. Per year? 13 A. No. Total. 14 Q. And it's been going on since 2000, 15 correct? 16 A. Began -- began -- design and 17 laboratory construction began in 2000, 2001. 18 Q. And who are the five industries or 19 five companies again who are the contributors to file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (625 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 the study? 21 A. Sponsors are Exxon-Mobil, Chevron, 22 British Petroleum, Conoco-Phillips, Shell 23 Chemical. 24 Q. Have they -- in addition to 25 contributing money to your efforts, have they file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (626 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 314 1 also contributed money, to your knowledge, to 2 Fudan University in China or the university here 3 where you work? 4 A. Those are all the same. 5 Q. So the $23,000,000 is total and 6 there's not been one more dime contributed to 7 the efforts in the study; is that correct? 8 A. Not to my knowledge. 9 Q. Who else has contributed money 10 besides these five entities? 11 A. Those are the entities that are 12 supporting this project, and they are the only 13 entities supporting this project. 14 Q. This is an industry-funded project 15 then, isn't it, sir? 16 A. It's an industry-funded project, 17 yes. 18 Q. Do you or the API have any plans to 19 include the National Cancer Institute or NIOSH file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (627 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 in the study? 21 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 22 question. 23 A. The American Petroleum Institute is 24 not -- is simply an administrator in this 25 project and doesn't have a management or file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (628 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 315 1 sponsoring role. I have no intentions of 2 including the National Cancer Institute in the 3 conduct of this project, any more than I would 4 include anyone else at this stage. 5 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Well, wouldn't you 6 agree it would take away some of the -- what 7 might be a perceived bias if the National Cancer 8 Institute or NIOSH were included in this study? 9 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 10 question. 11 A. I think that's an outrageous, 12 outlandish idea. To my knowledge, the National 13 Cancer Institute has neither the interest nor 14 the expertise to conduct a study such as this, 15 nor do they have an interest in providing 16 clinical services to the City of Shanghai. 17 This study has a totally different 18 design and totally different purpose and, to my 19 understanding, focus than the NCI study, which file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (629 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 was a classic retrospective, historical 21 epidemiology study. This is a prospective study 22 of the pathogenesis of disease in the 23 hematopoietic system. A relatively small part 24 of it is associated with or deals with potential 25 exposure to benzene. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (630 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 316 1 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Sir, wouldn't you 2 agree that it would be best for you and those 3 who are doing this study that if there was an 4 appearance of no influence by the companies who 5 are funding your study or appearance of 6 impropriety or bias in that study? 7 MR. SCOTT: Is there a question? 8 I'm sorry. Object to form. 9 A. Is there a question? 10 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Yes. Wouldn't it be 11 best for you in your efforts if there were an 12 appearance of no influence by the companies who 13 are funding your study or an appearance of no 14 potential bias because of oversight or by way of 15 oversight from the National Cancer Institute, 16 NIOSH, or some other governmental entity? 17 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 18 the question. 19 A. I think it's totally meaningless and file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (631 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 ineffective. I think our -- I think that the 21 Shanghai health project as it exists has both 22 the appearance and the reality of being 23 independent from the study sponsors in meeting 24 with U.S. and Chinese law, as well as the 25 ethical guidelines that have been set forth by file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (632 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 317 1 the World Health Organization and by the 2 independent committees that oversee the science 3 and oversee the conduct. It's independent of 4 the sponsors, which is consistent with any other 5 clinical research project in the United States 6 and most conducted worldwide. 7 (Irons Deposition Exhibit 8 was 8 marked.) 9 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) I want to show you 10 what we've marked as Exhibit 8 to your 11 deposition and ask if you've ever seen that 12 document before. 13 A. No. 14 Q. All right. I will represent to you 15 that this is a document produced by Monsanto in 16 another litigation, and it looks like at the top 17 there is a Craig M. Parker. Does the name Craig 18 M. Parker -- do you know Craig Parker? 19 A. No. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (633 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. In any event, it looks like it's a 21 PowerPoint presentation about the proposed 22 studies on the risks of benzene-induced diseases 23 in China; that's your study, isn't it? 24 A. It's not mine. I've never seen it. 25 Q. Well, is it referring to your study? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (634 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 318 1 A. I don't know whether it is 2 specifically or not. That's not the title of my 3 study, and I have not seen this document before. 4 I certainly didn't produce it. 5 Q. All right. In any event -6 A. Monsanto is not a sponsor. 7 Q. Well, it's a document that was 8 produced by Monsanto in other litigation. 9 That's what I will represent to you. And people 10 that were -- efforts on the part of those who 11 were contributing to acquire other contributors 12 to assist in funding the study. You are 13 familiar with that, aren't you, sir? 14 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 15 question. 16 A. In general I believe that the 17 sponsors had discussions with other companies, 18 but specifically I'm only aware of one 19 particular discussion, and that was with Dow file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (635 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Chemical. I have no knowledge of any 21 conversations or discussions or presentations 22 with Monsanto or any other company. 23 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) You are not saying 24 that somebody didn't try to recruit Monsanto to 25 be a contributor to help fund the study, file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (636 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 319 1 correct? 2 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 3 the question. 4 A. I'm saying I have no personal 5 knowledge of that. 6 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) You would agree that 7 it would be wrong, it would be ethically wrong, 8 it would be professionally wrong for somebody to 9 undertake a study where they had already had 10 some expectations of what the results of the 11 study would be, correct? 12 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 13 question. 14 A. Yes, which is precisely why U.S. 15 regulation and international guidelines for 16 clinical studies ensure the independence of the 17 study conduct and the investigators in clinical 18 studies. 19 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Let me object to file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (637 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 everything after "yes." It would be criminal 21 for somebody to rig an epidemiological study to 22 use for their benefit in litigation; do you 23 agree with that? 24 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 25 question. This is just harassing. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (638 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 320 1 MR. BROWN: No, it's not, Bob. 2 MR. SCOTT: Of course it is. It's 3 ridiculous. 4 A. You know, I can't -- I'm not an 5 attorney and I don't know whether or not it 6 would be criminal. It would be certainly 7 unethical and reprehensible. 8 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) All right. Well, 9 here is the reason I'm saying criminal. These 10 epidemiological studies are used to perform risk 11 assessments and set PELs for certain different 12 types of chemicals that are involved in these 13 studies, correct? 14 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 15 question. 16 A. I'm not -- I'm not at all -- I'm not 17 sure what you are talking about in terms of 18 these epidemiology studies. I have absolutely 19 no knowledge or concern over whether or not the file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (639 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 studies that I'm conducting support regulatory 21 standard setting or not from the standpoint of 22 an investigator. It's totally -- that's not the 23 goal of the study, and that's certainly not my 24 focus in the conduct of the studies. 25 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) What you are saying file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (640 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 321 1 is you just let the chips fall wherever they may 2 and it doesn't matter how much money these 3 companies fund, correct? 4 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 5 the question. It's nonsensical, Darren. What 6 do you mean what he's saying? 7 A. I don't understand the question. 8 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Is it your 9 understanding that with regard to your study, 10 you let the chips fall wherever they may. You 11 design the study, and you don't look back on it, 12 and there is no changes made if a bad result is 13 determined, anything like that? 14 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form of 15 the question. This is harassing. 16 A. What I'm saying is the conduct of 17 these studies, their design, the performance of 18 these studies and the results that are published 19 for the study are not in any way related to or file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (641 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 predicated on the basis of what influence they 21 will have on regulation. That's certainly not 22 the focus of me or the investigators. 23 The focus of these studies is to 24 understand the pathogenesis of these diseases 25 and to provide additional information that may file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (642 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 322 1 inform with respect to the specific relationship 2 between exposure to benzene and the development 3 of any of these diseases. 4 To the extent that that data becomes 5 useful for further regulation or other 6 activities, I think that's a laudable use of it, 7 but it's certainly not the focus or the driving 8 force as far as the conduct of the study is 9 concerned. 10 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Well, if your study 11 is used to support higher PELs for dangerous 12 products and people die because of the study 13 that you helped do, and the study was 14 predetermined from the beginning, that would be 15 criminal, wouldn't it, sir? 16 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 17 question. Darren, we are over your six hours. 18 MR. BROWN: No, we're not. 19 MR. SCOTT: Yeah, we are. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (643 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 MR. BROWN: No, we're not. 21 MR. SCOTT: I'm pretty sure we are. 22 I'm not stopping you, but come on. Let's ask 23 some reasonable questions. Object to form. 24 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) That would be 25 criminal, wouldn't it, sir? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (644 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 323 1 MR. SCOTT: Object to the form. 2 It's already been asked. It's harassing of this 3 particular witness. 4 A. That is absurd. Your allegations 5 are absurd. That that in no way characterizes 6 either the conduct or the intent of the study. 7 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) That somebody would 8 think that the results of the study would be 9 predetermined, that's absurd? 10 A. Yes. 11 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 12 question. 13 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Let me read to you 14 Exhibit 8, what is said here by this PowerPoint 15 presentation with Craig Parker's name at the 16 top. It says -17 MR. SCOTT: Can you tell us who that 18 is? 19 MR. BROWN: It's a safety guy or file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (645 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 some health professional, as I understand it, 21 who worked for Monsanto. 22 MR. SCOTT: You are vouching for all 23 of his credentials and all of that? 24 MR. BROWN: Sir, are you going to 25 interrupt my deposition and coach the witness? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (646 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 324 1 MR. SCOTT: I should because you are 2 over six hours, but I'll let you go on. 3 MR. BROWN: No, I'm not. 4 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 5 question. 6 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Sir, he says right 7 here, "The information gained from these studies 8 will assist contributing companies in achieving 9 product stewardship goals and will be useful in 10 defending the industry's risk reduction 11 programs. Additional benefits from this 12 collaboration approach are outlined below." How 13 do you feel about that statement, sir? 14 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 15 question. 16 A. This statement as you've read to me 17 and as I read it says that the information 18 gained from the studies will assist in -19 contributing companies in achieving product -- file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (647 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 product stewardship goals and will be useful in 21 defending the industry's risk reduction 22 programs. That to me sounds like a very 23 laudable goal, associated with stewardship and 24 in risk reduction. I don't see where that 25 implies any nefarious or predetermined result. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (648 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 325 1 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) How would somebody 2 know in February of '01 before you even have 3 your results of your study that the information 4 is going to be useful in defending the 5 individual risk reduction programs? 6 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 7 question. 8 A. I have no idea. 9 MR. SCOTT: Do you know what the 10 risk reduction programs are, Darren? 11 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) How would somebody 12 know that, sir? 13 A. I have no idea. 14 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 15 question. 16 A. I mean, I would never have said that 17 because -- that particular point in time I 18 certainly wouldn't be convinced that our results 19 would do that or not. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (649 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Were you aware of 21 these statements made by Dr. Infante in his 22 article published called "The past suppression 23 of industry knowledge and the toxicity of 24 benzene to humans: Potential bias in future 25 benzene research" where he states, "The file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (650 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 326 1 PowerPoint presentation apparently sent to Craig 2 Parker, manager of toxicology and product 3 safety, Marathon Oil, states that the planned 4 research results will enhance industry's ability 5 to achieve the above-mentioned objectives and 6 the findings of the Shanghai study are expected 7 to 1 -- or A, provide strong scientific support 8 for the lack of risk of leukemia or other 9 hematological disease at current ambient benzene 10 populations to the general population." Have 11 you ever heard of anything like that before? 12 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 13 question. 14 A. First time I heard that was when I 15 read that particular article, which is absurd 16 and outlandish. 17 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Did you call up 18 Dr. Infante and tell him that? 19 A. I wouldn't waste my time. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (651 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 Q. Have you written anybody at the -21 at this -22 MR. SCOTT: International Journal of 23 Occupational and Environmental Health. Joe 24 LaDou is the editor. 25 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) Have you written file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (652 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 327 1 anybody for that organization, sir? 2 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 3 question. 4 A. No. 5 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) I mean, what you're 6 saying is -- I mean, Dr. Infante is making a 7 serious allegation against you and your study, 8 correct? 9 A. Dr. Infante has made a number of 10 statements there that -- most of the statements 11 I disagree with, and I certainly don't -- I 12 don't have any knowledge that -- or personal 13 knowledge that indicates that they are true. As 14 a matter of fact, I think they are not true. 15 And I think that there are many statements in 16 there that are unfounded and certainly 17 misrepresent my understanding of what I'm doing 18 and what the study is about. 19 Q. Well, and I'm not -- I don't want to file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (653 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 imply that you are doing anything wrong. What I 21 want to get to the bottom of is if you've got a 22 study where industry expects the results of the 23 study are going to be favorable to them before 24 the study is even complete, that is just simply 25 wrong, correct? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (654 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 328 1 MR. SCOTT: Object to form of the 2 question. 3 A. Yes, that would be wrong. And that 4 not the case in the Shanghai health study. 5 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) And even though you 6 disagree with what Dr. Infante says, you've 7 never written anybody for the journal or never 8 written Dr. Infante or published any written 9 document to respond to what he said, correct? 10 A. No. As I said, I wouldn't waste my 11 time. 12 Q. That's a pretty serious allegation, 13 isn't it? 14 MR. SCOTT: What's a serious 15 allegation? 16 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) That there is -17 that's a pretty serious allegation, isn't it, 18 sir? 19 MR. SCOTT: What -- object to form file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (655 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 of the question. 21 MR. BROWN: Okay. Object to the 22 form. 23 Q. (BY MR. BROWN) The ones that I just 24 read to you about that Dr. Infante said. 25 A. As I have said before and I will say file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (656 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 329 1 it again, they are absurd and outlandish, and to 2 my knowledge they are totally unfounded. 3 Q. Give me one minute. 4 MR. BROWN: How much time do I have 5 left? 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On this tape, 7 approximately 25 minutes. 8 MR. BROWN: No, I'm talking about 9 there is a six-hour limitation. How much time 10 have I used? 11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: You are right in 12 that six hours. 13 MR. BROWN: Okay. 14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: I didn't know the 15 exact time that Mr. Scott started asking. 16 MR. BROWN: I will pass the witness. 17 MR. SCOTT: I just have a couple of 18 follow-up questions. 19 EXAMINATION file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (657 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 BY MR. SCOTT: 21 Q. First, I want to understand this 22 discussion of how many cases the NCI China study 23 has observed of lymphohematopoietic cancers as 24 compared to those that the Shanghai health study 25 has seen. You said twice as many, but I'm not file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (658 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 330 1 sure what that related to. Can you describe how 2 many cases you all, your study, has seen and how 3 many NCI has seen. 4 A. My understanding of the question was 5 how many cases of other hematopoietic disease 6 were reported in the overall series of studies 7 published by Hayes and all, and that includes a 8 variety of different publications by Travis, 9 Linet, Hayes, Yin, and what have you. I -- as I 10 sit here, I recall that the overall list of 11 abnormalities and diseases was more than the 12 number of cases of AML or NHL. That's what I 13 was referring to. 14 Q. And how many cases of AML and NHL 15 were there approximately in the NCI China study? 16 A. There were 14 cases of NHL, three of 17 which were confirmed by pathologic diagnosis. I 18 believe there were on the order of 30 and then a 19 few cases of AML, some of which were confirmed file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (659 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 by histopathologic diagnosis and some that 21 weren't. 22 Q. How many of the cases that the 23 Shanghai health study is -- has evaluated have 24 been confirmed by histopathology -- describe for 25 us the process that the Shanghai health study file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (660 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 331 1 goes through to diagnose these cases and what it 2 includes. 3 A. After a patient presents at Shanghai 4 Hospital, the laboratory performs sampling 5 including biopsy, analysis of blood, bone 6 marrow, and then performs a series of molecular 7 diagnostic studies in keeping with -- in strict 8 adherence to the WHO criteria for 9 classification. Histopathologic and 10 hematologic, morphologic review is performed. 11 Cytogenetic analysis and molecular genetic 12 analysis is performed. A diagnosis is made 13 typically by two independent morphologists and 14 then integrated into a study diagnosis, 15 sometimes three. 16 Each of those studies is then 17 independently peer-reviewed by a board-certified 18 hematopathologist from the United States, who 19 for study purposes reviews the cases. And then file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (661 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 additional tertiary review is applied in 21 selected cases involving a third expert in the 22 United States. 23 MR. BROWN: Object to 24 responsiveness. 25 Q. (BY MR. SCOTT) How does that compare file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (662 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 332 1 with the evaluative techniques that were 2 utilized by the NCI kind of study? 3 A. There is virtually no molecular or 4 phenotypic or cytogenetic analysis performed in 5 those studies. Some of the diagnoses were 6 anecdotal or verbal, involving no documented 7 laboratory or pathology analysis. The criteria 8 that were used in the diagnosis of those cases 9 were not standardized, which is a problem in 10 China. A relatively small number were available 11 for independent histopathologic review in the 12 United States and have been reported in those 13 studies, as I said, three out of 14 lymphomas 14 exposure group. A larger number of AMLs I think 15 were -- there was material available for review. 16 Q. I want to -- with regard to this 17 editorial of Peter Infante in the International 18 Journal of Occupational and Environmental 19 Health, I notice on the editorial board of that file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (663 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 journal -- the following individuals sit on that 21 editorial board: Peter Infante, Barry Levy, and 22 Dan Teitelbaum. Are you familiar with those 23 men? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Are you familiar with whether or not file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (664 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 333 1 every one of those men has testified on multiple 2 occasions for plaintiffs in cases involving 3 benzene? 4 A. In cases that I have been a 5 consultant on, they are frequently involved as 6 consultants. 7 Q. When you read Dr. Infante's 8 editorial in the International Journal of 9 Occupational and Environmental Health did you 10 notice whether he disclosed that he makes a lot 11 of money testifying for plaintiffs in benzene 12 cases? 13 A. What I noticed was there are no -14 there are no statements of potential conflict of 15 interest or financial support, and yet that's a 16 preeminent policy of the journal, at least 17 stated in their policies. 18 Q. That's all I have. Thank you. 19 MR. BROWN: I don't have any further file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (665 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 questions. 21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This includes the 22 August the 29th deposition of Dr. Richard Irons. 23 The time is approximately 6:55 p.m. and we are 24 now off the record. 25 file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (666 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 334 1 2 CORRECTION PAGE WITNESS: RICHARD D. IRONS, Ph.D. August 29, 2006 3 PAGE LINE CHANGE REASON 4 ________________________________________________ 5 ________________________________________________ 6 ________________________________________________ 7 ________________________________________________ 8 ________________________________________________ 9 ________________________________________________ 10 ________________________________________________ 11 ________________________________________________ 12 ________________________________________________ 13 ________________________________________________ 14 ________________________________________________ 15 ________________________________________________ 16 ________________________________________________ 17 ________________________________________________ 18 ________________________________________________ 19 ________________________________________________ file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (667 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 ________________________________________________ 21 ________________________________________________ 22 ________________________________________________ 23 ________________________________________________ 24 ________________________________________________ 25 ________________________________________________ file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (668 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 335 1 SIGNATURE PAGE 2 I, RICHARD D. IRONS, Ph.D., have read the foregoing deposition and hereby affix my 3 signature that same is true and correct, except as noted on the correction page. 4 ___________________________________ 5 RICHARD D. IRONS, Ph.D. 6 THE STATE OF TEXAS) 7 COUNTY OF JEFFERSON) 8 Before me, _________________________, on this day personally appeared RICHARD D. 9 IRONS, Ph.D., known to me (or proved to me under oath or through ___________________________) 10 (description of identity card or other document) to be the person whose name is subscribed to the 11 foregoing instrument and acknowledged to me that he/she executed the same for the purposes and 12 consideration therein expressed. Given under my hand and seal of 13 office this __________ day of _________________, 2006. 14 15 ___________________________________ NOTARY PUBLIC IN AND FOR 16 THE STATE OF ______________________ My commission expires: _______________ 17 18 19 file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (669 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 21 22 23 24 25 file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (670 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 336 1 CAUSE NO. E-170.351 IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF JEFFERSON COUNTY, 2 TEXAS, 172ND JUDICIAL DISTRICT 3 YOLANDA MCCARTY ROBERTS, ET AL VS. 4 SHELL OIL COMPANY, ET AL 5 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATION DEPOSITION OF RICHARD D. IRONS, PH.D. 6 TAKEN AUGUST 29, 2006 7 I, Joanne Blair, Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for the State of Colorado, 8 hereby certify to the following: That the witness, RICHARD D. IRONS, Ph.D., 9 was duly sworn by the officer and that the transcript of the oral deposition is a true 10 record of the testimony given by the witness; That the deposition transcript was submitted 11 on September 8, 2006, to the witness or to the attorney for the witness for examination, 12 signature and return to Esquire Deposition Services, L.L.P., by October 6, 2006. 13 That the amount of time used by each party at the deposition is as follows: 14 Darren Brown..... 5 HOURS:38 MINUTE(S) Robert Scott.....01 HOURS:01 MINUTE(S) 15 That pursuant to information given to the 16 deposition officer at the time said testimony was taken, the following includes counsel for 17 all parties of record: Darren Brown - Attorney for Plaintiff 18 Rodney Barnwell - Attorney for Plaintiff Robert Scott - Attorney for Defendant 19 Univar U.S.A., Inc. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (671 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 I further certify that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the 21 parties or attorneys in the action in which this proceeding was taken, and further that I am not 22 financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of the action. 23 Further certification requirements pursuant to Rule 203 of TRCP will be certified to after 24 they have occurred. 25 file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (672 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 337 1 Certified to by me this 5th of September, 2006. 2 3 4 ___________________________________ 5 JOANNE BLAIR Esquire Deposition Services 6 303 East 17th Avenue, Suite 565 Denver, Colorado 80203 7 (303) 316-0330 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (673 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 21 22 23 24 25 file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (674 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 338 1 FURTHER CERTIFICATION UNDER RULE 203 TRCP 2 The original deposition was/was not returned to the deposition officer on 3 _________________________; If returned, the attached Changes and 4 Signature page contains any changes and the reasons therefor; 5 If returned, the original deposition was delivered to Darren Brown, Custodial Attorney; 6 That $_______ is the deposition officer's charges to the Plaintiff for preparing the 7 original deposition transcript and any copies of exhibits; 8 That the deposition was delivered in accordance with Rule 203.3, and that a copy of 9 this certificate was served on all parties shown herein on and filed with the Clerk. 10 Certified to by me this 6th day of September, 2006. 11 12 ___________________________________ JOANNE BLAIR 13 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 303 EAST 17TH AVENUE, SUITE 565 14 DENVER, COLORADO 80203 (303) 316-0330 15 16 17 18 19 file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (675 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt 20 21 22 23 24 25 file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/EXPERT%20TRANSCRIPTS/irons.r.06.08.txt (676 of 676) [7/1/2010 11:25:38 AM]