Document 3JyQz7qjbv25bqR24n51EZqZJ

1. 6 8 1 . IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF THE UNITED STATES 2 FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS BEAUMONT DIVISION CECIL SCOTT, ET AL V . C.A. NO. B-84-1103-CA MONSANTO COMPANY 8 9 1 0 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF 1 1 PAUL GEORGE BENIGNUS 12 VOLUME II 1.3 14 15 16 17 April 21, 1987 18 Gilpin, Pohl & Bennett 1300 Post Oak Boulevard, 24th Floor 19 Houston, Texas 20 21 22 2 3 Cheryll K. LeFevers Texas CSR No. 1690/Notary Public 2 4 Nell McCallua & Associates 2900 Smith, Suite 104 2 5 Houston, Texas 77006 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019259 Jh L APPE! AKANCKB ; 2 3 For t he Plaintiffs : 4 DAVID M. LACK* WILLIAM I.TTTI.K 5 0 i. .1. pin, Poh l <i Bennett 1 3 0 (1 Post. Oak Boulevard, 24th F oo r 6 Houston, Texas 77056 7 For the Defendant: 0 WALTKR J. CRAWFORD, JR. 9 CHKRVTL D. Of.RSRN Wel.ls, Peyton, Beard, Greenberg I 0 Hunt & Crawford Petroleum Building 1 l P.O. Box 3708 Beaumont, Texas 77704 1.2 1 3 The Videographer: I. 4 JOHNNA COAT,BON Rxecutive Services Group 15 P.O. Rox 890306 Houston, Texas 77289-0306 16 17 1 fl 19 20 2l 7.2 7.3 24 25 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019260 1 /u I. Videotaped deposition of PA fit. GGORGR 2 BENIGNUS, Volume IT, a witness called by the 3 Plaintiffs, on April 21., 1907 , at the o f-' f: ices of 4 Gilpin, Poh 1 & Bennett., 1300 Post. Oak Boulevard, fl 24 th Floor, Houston, Texas, c om me nr. i n<j at 9:30 a.m., 6 before Cheryll K. r.eKevers, CAR No. 1690 and Notary 7 Public i. n and for the State of Texas, pursuant to fl Notice and Subpoena and the Federal Rules of Civil 9 Procedure. 10 I. I 12 13 14 I fl 16 l7 1 fl 19 20 2l 22 2.1 24 2 fl NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019261 1 rNDRX 2 3 WITNESS : PAUL GEORGE RRN.TGNUS 4 S EXAMINATION RY: 6 Mr. Ut:ey 7 B 9 t0 ]1 12 13 1.4 1S 16 17 18 )9 20 7.1 22 23 24 2fi )/l PAGE L 72 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019262 l / 2. I JL R. P_ <1 R n In o s 2 THK VrDKOCIRAPHKM : We .ire now 3 continuing the deposit-ion of Mr. Paul Fieniqnus. The 4 time is 9:35 a . m . 5 6 7 PAD 1. GRORGK HRN TGNU S , 8 having been previously duly sworn, testified as 9 f o I .lows : L0 1 1 KXAMINATION HY MR. I.ACKYt I 2 Q. Mr. Flenignus, Last night as we stopped your 1 3 deposition -- actually yesterday afternoon, T guess t 4 it was, a LittLe after 5:00, we went through a group i r> of documents by just, .identifying numbor that. I L 6 wanted to have you review and see III you can help us 1 7 learn something about them. 18 Did you have a chance last night to ] 9 take a look at. some of these documents to see what. 1 2 0 was interested in? 2.1 A. We looked at. all we had -- 2 2 Q. Okay. 2 3 A. - - w hirh was a large n umber. 2 4 Q. Okay. You did find most of them? 2 8 A. Oh, yes NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019263 1 /3 I Q Let me - F ' vo hr Led to group these 2 together as we g o through t.hem 3 A . Right. 4 Q -- in categories, and 1 want, t.o talk about `5 individual dncumnn ta . The t i. r s t mu? I'd like t o 6 show you .is the document numbered lb 19 through lb 28 7 and ask f y o u c;an identify that document for me. 8 A . Yes. The subject, is "The A r odors." This 9 lists the Aroc tor compounds that were made. It ] 0 lists Swani) Chemical at. - t.he plant, is at Anniston, l l A L a b a m a . Th i. s is Swann Chem i ca 1. . 1 2 So, t.ha t relates to the Aroclora at 1.3 Swann Chemical Company. 1 4 Q . Okay, Can you tell the; date of that IS document from look l nq F think inside on the first 16 page, inside, there may be some information on l 7 that. 1 8 A . It. says 1932, 19 Q. Okay. Now, this wouLd have been a 2 0 document, then, produced by Swann prior to i to 2 1 purchase by Monsanto? 2 2 A . This is correct.. 2 3 Q And nobody at Monsanto would have actually 24 had direct, involvement, in preparing that particular 2 S document? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019264 ) ' -4 I . A. No. 7. Q. Rxcept. t.o l.ht) extent, those people became 3 Monsanto emp J. o yees after they wore acquired by 4 Monsanto? 5 A . Right. 6 Q. Okay . 7 MR. CRAWKORhi Okay. Tf you know, 8 Mr. Renignus, about the employees. He's asking you 9 specifically about, that. l 0 THR WITNRSS i 1 said it's correct. 1 1 MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. l 2 Q. (Fly Mr. Lacey) Now, with regard to the 1 3 information that's contained in that, donment., do ]. 4 you know anything abou t the source of the i r:> information for what's .in there? l 6 A. Other than the sources from the ttwann 1 7 ChemicaJ Company. IB Q. Nothing beyond that? 1 9 A. Nothing beyond that, that I know of. 7.0 Q. Okay. Let me have that document back, and 7 i we'13 put that, in a stack over here that, we've 7 7. Looked at. 7 3 l.et me next, show you the Document. ibOfl 3 4 through L S I. B and ask if you can identify that, 7. f. d o cume n t. . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019265 15 I A . R 3 8 e n t i a I. I. y t: h e a a m e t h i n g . 2 Q . Okay. Can you t.e J .1 whf:n that, one w a a 3 written? 4 A . 19 3 4. !S Q. Ho, that, would be an updated v era ion 6 A. Right. 7 Q . - - of t. h e one we j u a t .looked at? H Alao written by Swann? 9 A. Correct. 1 0 Q. Prior to it.a acquisition by Monsanto? l l A . Right. 1 2. Q. And ycu don't know anything about the l 3 a on roe of the information contained in thi. a 1 4 docunent? 15 A . N o . ] ft Q. Do you know whether- or not these pieces of I. 7 literature were provided t.o anyone outai.de Swann? .1 0 A. T would certainly think a o. 19 Q. Okay. Now, in 1935 Swann waa acquired by 7 0 Monsanto, correct? 7. t A. Correct. 2 2 Q Okay. Now, 1 e. t m e. j u a t 1 ea v e. t.h i fl 2 3 el o c u in eiit, the one that's the 1934 document, there 2 4 f o r y o u :r review; and .1 e t me show yon now a donmeut 9.5 1.559 through LSBO. And i. t ' a (jot a number on it. NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. HARTOLDMONO019266 1 /b I Application Data fl u I. I. e t i. n No. I? -1 IS. 2 The f ira 1. th 1 ncj I want. t.o t ry to do i a 3 Identity where that document came Prom. Do you know 4 where that, document, would have - - who would have 5 ori</i. natod that document? 6 A. Monsanto Chemical Company. 7 Q. And w a a that document t h Monsanto version H of the previous Swann documents in t.ern of the 9 information it contained? } 0 A. That's essentially correct, yes. L l Q. Now, do you know when that document was 1 2 prepared? 1 3 A . Well , X see a date here, 1945. l 4 Q Okay . Tha t 1' a a date 3 tamp on iit? 1 5 A . X t ' a d a t. e Ht.aup . l 6 Q. Okay . That ia not a copyright dale like is 1 7 in the Swann documents? 1 8 A, No. ft 1.3 different, The Swann documents 1 9 had a copyright date. Someone stamped this, dated 2 0 it June, 194.S. 21 Q. And what we can te'll from that <1 a t. e a lamp 2 2 is that that, at least, was in existence by June of 2 3 19 4b because a June, ' 4 5, date stamp is on i l ? 2 4 A. t would assume so. 7 5 q . 11 t) 1 e s s somebody went back with a date s t. a m p NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019267 l// 1 to specif! i. c a L I. y b a c k d a t e 1 t., that would be true. 2 wou 1 <ln ' t i t? 1 A . T would think so. 4 Q . Now, do you have any idea of when Unit 5 d omiine n t was actua L 1y prepared , how much in advance ft of June, 19 4!-)? 7 A . No, T don't. fl Q Okay. What group or department, with .i n 9 M o n s a n t o would be responsible for producing 1 0 d o e u n e n t a like t h a 1. ? 1 1 A . This "P" indicates the phosphate division. 2I. which is the inorganic division. i :i Q T hat was t. h e division you worked for with I 4 racj.i rd to - 1 b A . I.ater on. I ft Q pen's in the 194 7 ..._ 1 7 A . Yeah . I. H Q. -- and Hollowing per led? 19 A. Yeah. 2 0 Q. So, .if we seo the letter "l3" on a document, 2 t we know it name f! v o in the phosphate division, 2 2 correct.? 2 3 A . Well, t h i s one, since it's t. h e only 1 e t. ter, 2 4 t h is is corr o c t 21> Q. Okay. And within that group --- is there a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019268 L / i) .1 pari'. L c u I. a r g r o u p o r p a r t L c u L a r up ec i. a I. t y t: h a t 1 s 2 aafiigned t-ho responsibility of actual j y preparing 3 documents of this I: y p e ? 4 A. Well, this - - this seems to be coming out 5 be f o r e m y I: i. m o , b u t i. t. would be applicable; so, i: ' I. I. 6 answer i t on that, basis. 7 Doc urn <5 n t. a of this type are prepared by H people who have assembled this technical information 9 and have put It together in rough form. Then the 1 0 procedure in usually to - not. in all cases -- but, l l i: would think, writer a of literature. And the a a 1 2 people would be in the advertising department, not n ner. e a :s a r i 1 y inea n i n g w r I. t i ng ads , e t cetera, b u t J 4 we'll have them in this department. They are 19 writers. T h o y put this into a final finished f or*, 1 6 and that (jives rise to this, for example. t 7 Q . So, you have people who are skilled i. n -- 1 a in writing things that, make sense and are 19 understandable, who actually put it in E i. na I. form? 2 A . This is r orree t. . 2 l Q. What was the purpose of preparing 2 2 1 i tera t.ure of t.ha t. a or t V 2 3 A. The purpose of preparing literature of this 2 4 sort, was to distribute it to customers of the 2 5 company who were buying the Aroclors, the subject of: NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019269 1 /9 l t; h i s , to disseminate and d I s t r i l) u Le i n f o rma t i o n to ?. than a people. That, was the purpose. 3 Q. Okay. 'Jo, It was do 3 L ijnml to provide to 4 customers? 5 A . RMHflnt La I. I.y/ yes. 6 Q. Okay. What's the relationship between 7 Monsanto Chemical. Company and Monsanto Company? I H notice that says "Monsanto Chemical Company" on it., 9 A. Oh, In later years the "Chemical" was 1 0 eliminated. That, is all. l l Q . okay. Now, let me show you another 1 2 <i o c u in e n i., 3 3 throucjli S3. And, in particular, I'm I ) a g a 1 n L n to roa ted i n try i. ng to de termine whether or 1 4 not this is the same document, as the one that you l 5 have just looked at or whether it's a different 1 f d oninent . 1 / A. Well, without going through each page, it 18 cert a Inly appears to be the same. 19 Q. Okay. Was there some sequence that 2.0 Monsanto used in order to Identify revised versions 7 ] of documents so, for example, when you were going to 7 7 give one to a customer you could make sure you gave 2 3 l. h e m the m o t. c u r r e n t. o n e ? 2 4 A. [ don't know of a formal, procedures. These 2 S were reissued when they ran out. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019270 1 (I 1 Q. Okay . 2 A. That 1 9 ('aaentidlJy the modus operand! , 3 Q And the only way y o u cou 1.d (jet a n w one is 4 if somebody d id a n ew one and , hopeful 3 y, t b c: y w o u 1 d t. hrow the o Ld ones away and have the news o n e 3 r e a d y (> to hand out when there was a new one, then? 7 A. Yes . H Q . Hut .i f: .... <> A. Now now, 1 am not certain. There are LO some numbers often i. n these things. I don't see 1 1 them now, but. if If saw such a set of numbers - l 2 sometimes there is an indication as to the number of 1 3 printings that were made and perhaps something about l 4 the date, but r ' m not sure of that. Those numbers 1 !i often are confusing to me. tft Q. Okay. Well, let mo see - Let me look at 1 7 t h i s one j u s t. a second and see if I can find the IB sort of thing you're talking about. 1 9 Where do t.hone numbers appear? 2 0 aually at the end of Lho document? 21 A. 3 would think so. That's where I .looked. 2 2 I didn't find any. 2. \ Q, Okay. Well, I don't find one on this one 2A either. f.et me just give you another document. 2. H W e ' I J j u s t g o t o a n o l. h e r one here. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. HARTOLDMONO019271 1BI 1 het me luind you Document 1527 through 2 ] 5 5 fl , a 1 ii o 1 abo] ed "Application Data R u .1 1 e t i n 3 P-115,* and ask you to take a Look at: that:. And, in 4 particular, I think on the next to iaat page of that 5 document, down at the lower Lett hand corner, there f. are Home numbers down there. 7 A . Yes , t h i. s is the k i n d of: thing I was 8 looking for. 9 Q. What sor t, of things do those numbers stand l 0 for within Monsanto Company? 1 1 A . ;i do not. know. l 2 Q. Okay. 1 3 A . T d o n o t. know. l 4 Q. Can y o u t o L1 from that document that f'v o 1 8 just, handed you whether it's older or newer than t.h e l 8 two previous versions of nuJ. Let in P-115 that you've 1 7 looked at? 1 8 A . Offhand, no. They look ver y similar- to me. 19 Q. Well, is there any way you couLd review 20 them and tell me which one is older and which one is 2 l newer? 2 2 A. (No response) >. 1 Q. E f there is any difference. 2 4 A . I don't, see any difference. 2 5 Q. Okay. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019272 I rl /! t A . J! see no d i. i: f; e r o n o e 2 Q Okay. I.e t me har>(i you another " A ppJ ion tion 3 Data Bulletin P U S, " numbered 1501 through 1605 4 and, aqain, on the last, page t. here, down at the 5 lower left-hand side, there's another s e r i o 3 ot: 6 let tern and numbers -- - and ask you if you nan, from 7 that. Identify anything about it. 8 A. Here, I would nay the numbers 8--4 7-7 1 may 9 mean August, '47, 1971. 1 0 Q . Well, t. h a t. doesn't. make sense. though, does 1 t i t, because there aren't 47 days in August? 1 2 A . Oh , excuse me. No , T said 19 4 7. l 3 Q Oh , 19 4 7? 1 4 A . Oh , n o. Wait a mi mi t.e . Wa i. t. a minute. 15 T ~ - s t r Ike that . 16 August., 194 7. What does the "71" l 7 mean ? I don 't know. 10 Q. I don't know. Hut. if you were qoinq to try 19 to date that, you would assume it's August, 1947? 20 A. Until I qot mixed up with the number 71, 2 l that I don't know ivhat it means. 22 Q. Okay. Do you have any idea, looking at 2 3 that code, when that document was produced? 24 A . I'm not. sure from this - - this code that .... 2.5 I'm confused with the code, actually. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019273 i rt .t I. Q. Who lit Mona.inl;n would know about: these code 2 nuibera and how to identify when these various 3 documents were printed, if: anybody? 4 A . My best, guess on t. h i s As someone in this 5 d e pa r tin lit. I re t:e r red to earlier, call i t: 6 "advertising department." or "literature department." 7 Q. Yo u t h L n k they might have a key to these 0 codes? 9 A . If there is one. t 0 Q. Okay. 1 1 A. If there is one. I. 2. Q. Now, let mo show you some more copies of 1 3 this same tml]etin . The next number is 1606 through l 4 1634; and on this one, I ' d ask you. a g a i n , to look 1 !> a t t h e next: t o 1 a a t. page and let me know whet.he r or 16 not you have any i d n a o f; what those letters and J 7 number a stand for. l 8 A . Yeah , I s e o 1: h i s . 1 9 Q. Okay . What, do t.hos e letters and numbers 2 0 stand for? 2 1 A . "P . G. n." are my ini l 1 a 1 s 22 Q A L L v igh t . ? :i A . "10, " 1 would assume is 0 e t. o b e r . 2 4 Q Okay 2 b A . T h e year 194 H. And, again , t h i s number 7 1 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019274 i l) 4 1 1 up here i. a 2 Q. Okay. Now, why would your 1 n i t. i a .1 a a p pear :j on that docuniH n t. ? r\ oc 4 A. <j d o o u m e n t V *5 Q Yes . 6 A . T t was a r e 5 a a u e of the prior- documents in 7 1 9 4 R , and l was in that a r e a at that time. H Q. Would tliat. mean that, you had revi ewe<1 that. 9 d o c u m e n t p r i o r to Its issuance to ensure that It was 1 0 a c c. u t a t e and a o on and ao forth? l l A . L would a ay a o. 1 2 Q. That. "71" is the name number that appeared l '1 the prior document that we - 1 4 A . yea . 1 b Q- couldn't figure out , isn't i tv l 6 A . Yeah . 1 7 Q- Now, if that, number ri g h t. there means that L H you Ldsuod that in - what did you say? October of 1 9 1940 -- 2 0 A. '48. 2 J Q . If we use the flame id e nt. i f ic a tion, when 2 2 would that previous document have been issued? 73 A . J 947 . 2 4 Q. Okay. And whose initials are there -- or 2 b what letters are there in front o f: t h a t ? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. HARTOLDMONO019275 I HS I A . " I1 . r, . " 2 Q. Who would "I1, r, . " bo? :i A. I'd s d y I. hut. would bo Paul. boc/ue. 4 Q . Paul I.owe ? Yi A. r.ogue, b o o n i;, 6 Q. Hid Mr. 1.runic precede you in the job that 7 you held when these things were ia sued under your H i ii i t ,i a .1 n ? 9 A. Paul I.ague and 1 were in what they called l 0 the development department. Yes, we were together. 1 1 Q. Okay And, no, it would make sense that 12 the document;:! labeled " P . b." were reviewed by 1 2 Mr. I.ogue before they went, out .... 14 A . Right. 1 '.I . - as a part, of his job reaponsibi .1 i t. i c H I b with Mo n nan to; Is that cor r net? 1 7 A. T would say this is correct. IB Q . And, .so, let - let's go back now and let 19 me take a look at - can you hand me those d o c. u m n t. s 2.0 just a second, and let ine look here? 2) We've <] o t- I o t. 'it 3 oe . I*e t me look 2 2 at theone just prior to that, see It that has a s e t 2 2 of initials on if or not. 24 Okay. We don't have the f: i r a t one 2?> we've got. a s e t of initials on, as far as 1 o a n NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. HARTOLDMONO019276 Ih 1 tell, i3 this Do c ii me n I; l SHI throuqh L 6 0 b , which it '?. would appear was i iia'iod under Mr, I.ocjue's direction 3 in August of 1947; is t h a t correct, from the code on 4 i t? h A . 1 think 3 o . 6 Q. Okay. Then the next one we've got with the 7 Letters a n d numbers in t h L a Document 1606 throuqh fl 16 3 4 t. h a t apparently wan issued after your review in 9 October of 1948; in that correct? 1 0 A . it has my initial. That, doesn't, mean that I. 1 o t h e r s d i. <1 n't review t; h i. 3 . 1 2 Q . Okay. Hut y o u - 1. 3 A . Out, these .ire my initials, and the other 1 4 ones are Paul I.ogue. I can see this. l i Q, And -- and you would have had at least a 1 6 review responsibility for that, document., wouldn't, L 7 you? i a A . Yog , 19 Q. Okay. And that, was issued apparently in 2 0 October of 1940? 2 1 A . I would say so ?. Q . Okay . pa A. -- according to these numbers. :m Q . f, e I; me show y o u another version of P - l Lb, 2 ?i document. 16 3b through 1663 and on the next to last. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019277 1d/ I page i h has your i n i h L I. rj and hhe codft indicating 2 that on was issued in April of J949, does it not. V .3 A. Yea . 4 Q. Okay. Let me show you another version of 5 Application D a h a Hullftt. in P l I. S , Do o u m o n t L 6 6 4 6 t. Iirouqh 16 9 2. Again, on t. h e n e x l. to la u t page we 7 have your initials and the code indicating that was H issued in June of J9b0, correct? 9 A. Yes. 1 0 Q. Okay. I.et me show you another version of 1 t t h o. A p p I. i c a I: i o ii Data Hull i* h i n P I. I h , No. 1693 1 2 through 1721 . And on the next, to last page we have 13 your initials and a code indicating that document 1 4 was issued in January of 19b2, correct? l `5 A. Yes. 1 6 Q . Okay. Let. me s how you another copy of an l 7 Application Data flu l let in No. P-ltS, Document ri 5 1 H through H3, and direct your attention to the next, to 19 last page, which has your initials and a code 7 0 indicating this document was issued in November of 21 1952, correct? 2 2 A. Yes. 2 3 p . Let. iue show you a no t. he.r v er s i on of t h e 2 4 Application Data Bulletin P i L *5 , No. 1 7 2 2 through 2b 17L2, and direct, your attention to the fourth page NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. HARTOLDMONO019278 tab I fir on the end where t here's a code <jLvi.ni/ your 2 ini tia] and i r> d i c a t .i n q t fi i s w a a issued in March of .3 19 5 3, correct? 4 A. Yea. b Q . Okay. Now, in the cast* of each one of ii t h ea e d o c u m enta where your initials a p p e a r: L n t h e / date, code, you would have - either by youjaeJf or 8 with others - have reviewed these, documents b e f: o r e 9 they were sent, to the pri n lerg for printing and then l 0 d i s t r i. b u I: i. o n ? J 1 A. Yes. ] ? Q, Were these printed in-house at Monsanto by I 3 Monsanto's own printing presses, or did they send 1 4 t. h e s e - J ii A . N o . T h e y w <3 r e s e n t out. 1 6 Q Okay. Do you know how many were presented 1 7 a t one pr A n ting ? 1 8 T H K VIDROGKAPHER: Kxc use me. i have 19 to go off! the record for a minute. 2 0 (D i c uss i o n o f f t. h e W e c o r d ) 2. \ TKK V I'D KOOK A PUKR : Wo are now back on 22 the record. The time is 9 : ii H a . in . ?. i q. (n y Mr. bacey) Do you know how many of 21 t. h e s e any v er s A o n of t.h es e bo I J et.i n3 would be 2. `j printed at one printing by Monsanto? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. HARTOLDMONO019279 1 A . Thy wnro, as we 3 a L d , printed o u I; 3 i d e . 2 Hut the quest i on i s how man y 0 opi es . 3 Q . Correct . Do you know? 4 A . I'm -- this i s one rcunon 1 ' m ] 00k i nq a l li the numbers . Homo ot those - one sees fchi 3number 6 71 7 Q. That, uppears in each one of these 8 d or. u me n t 3 . 9 A . T hat. seems to b in each one. l 0 Now, here's a " 2 M 1? 1 1 Q. Do you know what. t. h a t. a t. ends for? t 2. A . r ' m not p. x t: u 3 e me - ' m not sure what 1 3 i t a t. c.snda for, but it may have. to do with the 1. 4 n u m b o r 1 { R . Quantity V 16 A . The quantity. 1 w o u i <1 n 1 t. know w h a t. e J a e . l 7 Q . ].' t definitely appears that h h a 7 l t h a L ' 3 L n 1 (I each one of. these codes is c o n 3 i stent, b e cause we 1.9 have the sane Application Data Rul. let in, doesn't it ? 2 0 A. Yes, I would think so. 2 l Q . All r i. (j h t . And it a p p e a r 3 t h a h " 7 l " 2 2 r e f e r e n c e a A p p I i rati on Da t. a M u J .1 e t. i n P - 1 1 f> , c.orr e c t ? ?.3 A, Thai.'3 - that's r ease) nab Lo to as a nine, i 24 would assume that.. Q . Now, let me - we'll come back a nd ta 1k NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019280 i >u I a b o u *'. I: hose b u l I. e t: 1 n a l. . te r - 2 A . All r hi h t. . ') Q. - but Let me try to identify some 4 additional doc uinentii here in tennn of whal they ') are. And Let me a tart by handing you a dor. u men I; b railed " A p p J i c a t i o n Data n u i 1 e t. i n No. 0 P 1 1 b , " 1794 7 through 1024,, and isk you to take a look at that. H A . (W .i t n e a a complies) 9 Q. Did you review that document last night, or 1 0 one like .it? 1 I A. Oh, t saw it last night, yea- They have t 2 t h i. a . 1 3 Q. What does the "OP-lib" mean as opposed to 1. 4 the " P l l S " ? 1 b A . This is what T am trying to think, what, l 6 does that mean. The " P", we derided, was t he 1 7 phopha te di v i a i o . I. 0 Q. That's what you told me, yes. 19 A . Right.. The " 0, " this, 1 do not know, other 2 0 than, by this point i. n time, the materials were in 2 1 the area of the organic chemicals division. 2 2 Q. Okay, There's a code number there on that 2 3 documerit, i s t here not? 2 4 A . This is what: I Looked for, 2 b Q , is there a code number t. h e re? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019281 1 ') 1 I A . Yes. 2 Q. The e ode number c. o n c. .1 u d e s with 1 h a t same 3 r e f e r e n c e t o " 7 1,'' does i t n o t ? 4 A . R i g h t . T fi i s i s r i g h t . 5 Q Now, is that doc u m o n t ban i c a 1. 1 y f i. 1. led with f> the same j nf o t m a t i o n t. h a t t h e previous A p p .1 i niiti o n 7 D a t a R u l l e t i n 3 P - J. 1 h were filled with ? B A. (No reaponwe) 9 Q. And i. f you flood to, you cun take a moment 1 0 to compare that document with one of the P-115 1. I d onu me n t s . 1 2 A. Well, without g o i rig through it page by 13 p a (j e , i I; ' a essentially the same, 1 would 3 a y . 1 4 Q. Okay. 1 5 MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Henignus, you may 1. 6 want t o look and bo sum if: it is the same or not 1 7 the same. I don't know if they are or not., but l 8 T (IK W IT N R !1 5 ; W e 1 L , l can' t I: ell fro in 1 9 paging through here. 2 0 MR, CRAWFORD: Well ~~ 21 THE WITNESS : It looks the. same. ?. A . Doesn't it look t h e s a in e ? 2 3 Q (My M r , I.a cey ) I t h ink it is, b ut 1 wan l. 2.4 ask y o u 1. o tell, mo 3 l"> A . As far as I can t e 1 J , i t. i s . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019282 ia I. Q Okay. ?. MR. CRAWFORDs You might want to look 3 at the -- maybe the index on the two l:o see It 4 there's any difference. r> Q. (R y Mr. fi.ir. ey) Feel free to do that. I 6 -j u ? t wan t t o e l. a b J i s h for ns w h e t her or not. w c: ' v e 7 rtssen t l a l I. y got another version o f t h e same document 8 t.ha t. appears to have* a different cover on i t. - 9 A. Weil 1 0 Q. - and looks like t h e y changed the cover l L and t hey changed i t from being P - l l 5 to 0P-lt 5 . 1 7 A . Th a t.'s h o w far T am on this. 13 Q . Okay. Weil., take a I.ook to -- at-- at the 1 4 document and page through a couple of them to sen if I. !> they're essentially the same information. 1 6 A . I ' m looking at t.he index and seeing r>o I. 7 difference. In fact, they are the same, the index. 1 8 Q. Okay. Do you want, to flip through the rest, 19 of! the documen t ?. 0 A. It has a different, front page. 7 1 Q. Okay. And we know it's got. an "OP" instead >>.7. of a "P" on it? 7.3 A. Right, which C assume is the 7 4 o r q a n i c p h o r. p h a t e d i v i a i o r> . 7`i Q. Okay. And that - you told me what NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019283 I93 L It a ppned was the phosphate division moved from 2 i norgani c to organic? A . The Arm: lors did, yea. 4 Q . In about 1 9 b 2 ? 5 a . Approximately. Eh could have been a bit 6 e d r 1 i e r . Huh this is a approx j mate point, j n time. 7 ye:) . R Q A r e you n a t. i s 1 i e d t. h a t. this las t <1 o r u m e n t 9 I'v hand nil you is just 'in updated version of the J 0 pre v j (uni documents? l l A . T h a t. 's the way it. Looks to me. 1 7 Q Okay. Now l i A . With the "OP" and a different front page. J 4 c>. K i cj h t. . Now, the .last, d o c u m e n t. t. h a t. w t: tb had - - y o u m i.ij h t hand me that Last l 1 > d o c u mint 1 A t h a t ' s 3 m hi e d 3 a t. e .1 y be .1 o w t. h a 1 o n e , too, l 7 A . This one? 1 fl Q Yes. 19 A . (Witness romp 1. Lea) 20 Q. Th e last P - 1 1 b document, we hud , f r om t.h e 2.1 code on It - - and we're t a 1 k i. n g a b o u t. D o e u in on*; l V 2 2 2 2 1. Iirou cj h ] 7 b 2. - was printed in Mar c h of 1 9 b 73 , 2 .3 core e c t: ? 2 4 A , Yes . 2S Q Okay. And that went. out. wit. h t tie P lib NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019284 iI 1 covr and your ini h id la, corrnfit? 2. A . Yea, 3 Q. Now, when wo: come to the first, of the OP 4 documents -- rind maybe you can hand that OP document b back to me. 6 A . (Hi tn e s s compiles) That's 0 P. 7 Q bet me see If E can get our OP documents 8 arranged and j ook at the pages that are t hat, 9 contain the codes and figure out when they were 1 0 isaupd , 1 1 Did you have an employee number at t 2 Monsanto? E moan, did they have employee numbers, 1 3 badgo number, or anything like t.hat? l 4 A. Not that I know of. 1 S Q . Okay, Well, I noted t hat in these OP i a documents, the initial. 3 had disappeared in the codes 1 7 that, we see down at the bottom of the documents at l 8 the end, and in place of that there are n u nt b e r s . 1 9 And I gust wondered if -- if maybe those numbers 20 represented the Individual who wa3 responsible for 2 1 review of the document. 2 2 A. E don't have one with the number. 2 3 Q. Okay. W r 1 I , let mo show you these. I'm 2.4 trying to g e t these aligned In order here. A n d let 2. f> me do that. 1 think T have them in what 3 believe NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019285 I <*5 I to be Uii'ir propnr aeqiiiincfi, 2 l.ct me show you, first, Application 1 Data Bulletin OP-l 1.5, Document: 175.) through 1 7 8 2. 4 And on the third page from the end, we find the code 8 at the bottom Is 2 - l 9 5 0 3 ~ 5 4 0 2 M- 7l. A mi in eac h of 6 the OP documents t.ha t. I'm going to show you , the 7 number 2-195 i a the beginning number. And r'm j u a t fl wondering if that 2-195 represented a reference, to a 9 particular Individual who reviewed the document? 1 0 A. I can't answer that. I don't, know. l l Q. Pino. Would you, after you moved or after, 1 2 actually, the PCH division moved to the organic n group, have continued with responsibility for ] 4 reviewing documents like this before they went, out? t S A . I would be i n tho area and could be given 1 fi t. his to look at.. 1 7 Q. We know from your initials on the preceding IB documents - 1 9 A. That I did, yen. 2 0 Q . -- that you did f o r a o hi e p e r i.od of time? 2 1 A . Yen, Tight.. 22 Q . Now, looking at the code on t. h a t d o c u m e n t., 2 ) i. t has t ho same "71'* that's referenced all the 2 4 p r evi ous bulletins, does it. n o t. ? 25 A . Ve s . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019286 < 1 fv I Q And i t: w e 1. o o k at the code, we s e e .i 2 reference ther e in t he num be rin g system. Maybe you 3 can open u p t h o 1 a s t previous l lb to t h e code 4 A . This? 5 Q .... a n d w e can compare t hat. code number. 6 A . That d o e 3 n ' t have any code numb e r, 7 0- T believe it. does, right, there? 0 A . No . 9 Q. I meant t. he code -- J didn't mean exactly l 0 the same code, but it has a - - It has a code number 1 1 on it, does it. n o t ? L 2 A . (No response) 1 3 Q . Yep. It. ha8 your initials and t hen a code l 4 number, cornse t? ] b A. W hich I thought was t h e date. l h Q. Yea, which which you've indicated you 1 7 think means this was published in March of 1 9 F> 3 ? Ifi A. That ' b how I. interpret this. 19 Q. Okay. Now, as we compare t. h e code nunbe r 2 0 that appears on the a a me? page of the document, that 2 1 code in the last Application Data Bulletin P-lib, 2 2 Document 1722 through 1742, appears on Page 27 of 2 2 the internal number of t.hat document, does it not? 2 4 A. Yes . 2 r. Q. When we come to Page 2 7 of the Application NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019287 L ' / t Data Bulletin OP-l 13, Oociiihrii t 1733 I: hrough 1702, 2 and we look at. Page 2.1 of the. interna] numbering of .3 that ilocunant .... 4 A . Okay . 5 Q . - we f i ri d another set. of codes 6 A . Codes. 7 Q. - - down at the bottom left? 0 A . Righ t . 9 Q We have a t t. he end "71 which appears l 0 reference this particular aerie si of book a, does it 1 3 n o t. ? 3 2 A . Right. We have this same 2 M reference that 13 we've previously noted that may rn Late to the number 1 4 of documents published, correct? IS A. Yes. 1 6 Q. At. the beginning, instead of initials, like l 7 we previously had, which wore your initials i a A. Yes. 1 9 Q. -- P. G. B . , we have1; a 2-193. And you're, 2 0 not sure whether that references a person - 2 3 h . 3 - T don't, know what. that, is, no. 7.2 Q. And then we have "3-34," which would 7.3 a p p a ren 13 y in d i r. a t e this w a si p u b .1 i ii he d in M a r c h of 2 4 I. 9 3 4 , would it not ? 2r> A. I would assume so. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019288 * /n I Q. Okay. And if; we come to the next document. 2 Application Data Bulletin 0 P - 1 1 5 , Document. 1794 3 through 1824, wo have the a a mo code numbers except 4 numbers indicat. inq thin was published in February of *5 *55, correct? f. A . It. .looks that way, right. 7 Q. As we come to the next Application Data 8 Bulletin OP--115, Document. 1825 through 1 856 , we 9 have, again, that same series of numbers except a ] 0 number indicating this was apparently published in l l Decombfir, 1955, correct? 1 2 A. Yes. 1 3 Q. And as we come to the next Application Data 1 4 Rill let I n OP 115, Document 185 7 through 1880 , we have 15 a set of code numbers which w (hi 1d appear to indicate 16 that this d o c u mn t. was published in November of 17 19 b 6, correct? l 8 A . r,et me see that, J 9 MS . OI.RRKN: W h u I were t he d ocu m e nt 2 0 numbers two documents back , the one b e f o r e 1. 0 2 5 ? 21 MR . M'PTI.K: 17 94 t o 1 8 2 4. 2 2 MS . 0 ti K 8 R N s Okay . Thank you, 2 3 A . Yes, t. h is looks - now,, they don't, have the 2 4 2M i n here, do t he y ? 2 5 Q. (By Mr. l.acey) Right., which would maybe NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019289 i > 'i 1 indicate a dlftferent qu.i n t i hy , 2 A . It. may indicate a different. <1 u a ri t. i t. y , Here the numbers seem ho be run together. Here l;hey are \ separated. Hut. it. - it appeals to relate. 5 Q. To November, t 9 b 6 ? 8 A . I would a s a u in e s o . 7 Q. Then we come ho tho next Application Data 8 Mullet, in Ol'-'-lJH, No. 1889 through 19 18; and the code 9 numbers here appear to indicate that the document 1 0 was published in November of 1 9ti7 , correct? 1 l A. Yes. 1 2 Q. Okay. And, again, you may or may not have l.'i reviewed these documents that don't bear your 1 4 initials but. bear the code 2-19S; you're just. not. lb s ure? 1 6 A. I don't, know what. 2 - 1 9 b is. 17 Q. Okay. Would somebody in the group that you 1 8 worked with have been responsible for reviewing t 9 these documents before they we.re published? 20 A. Those were my initials on that, indicates 2 t that I was involved. 2 2 Q. And - - 2 2 A. 2 -19b, I would assume, is someone else. 2 4 Q. okay. And why do you assume 2 19b 2 b indicates someone o t. h e r t h a rt y o u V NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. HARTOLDMONO019290 u) I A , I don ' h know who 2195 i. a , 2 Q . Okay. is there some r e a a o n you think j t. 1 s 3 definitely not you and it'a somebody elan, or you 4 juat. don't know who il. is? 5 A . I don't know. f. () . Okay. Do you recall ever t'ransf ejr ing the. 7 responsibility tor reviewing these documents to 0 Romeone else? 9 A . 1 - officially - - you say. "transfer." l 0 r ? NO . 1 1 Q. Do you toca.11 -l 2 A . T h e y were, reissued by whoever was there. 1 3 Q . yes . W h a t. I'm - - what. 1 ' m asking -- and l 4 maybe f should ask it a different way. What I want, Hi to know is whether or not you recall some point in l 6 time where it was no Longer your job responsibility 1 7 to review these documents before they were reissued? l H A. Now, that runs up to what year3? 1 9 Q. Until you retired. 2 0 A. Until I retired? 2 1 Q. y e 8. Do you recall any point in time where 2 2 you no longer had the responsibility tor reviewing 2 3 thoae documents that, were in t. h e lib series, whether 2 4 it's P-115 or OP-115, after you started reviewing 2 5 t. h e m in 1 9 4 H ? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019291 1 A . '48. Yes , 1: h t a is correct. There were 2 periods when I was not. any longer assoriut.e d with .1 the nonelectrical areas. 4 Q. Okay. And when did -- when would it be 5 that you no longer would have had any responsibility 6 for documents like these that, are labeled " P - .1 1 5" 7 and "OP 115''? 8 A . I don't, know this - - t. h i s - - this point i n 9 time, I really don't. 1 0 Q . Okay. That's fine. 1 l A . in othfr words , complete dissociation from 1 2 i H this what you're asking? 11 Q That's w h a t l ' m trying to find out about. ] 4 A . I really don't know . 15 Q . Okay. Let me direct your attention back to 16 Document 1 6 0 6 through 1634. And this is the 17 document that had your Initials and the code ] 8 indicating it was printed in October of 194R. 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. 1 want, to direr. 1. your attention to Page 2 1 1625 of the numbering system for that document, or 2 2 Page J 9 of the document., where i t t.a 1 ks about 21 dermatology and toxicology. Do you see that topic 24 b e i rig discussed there ? 2 5 A . Yes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019292 / W/ I Q. Where would you have gotten t h o i n f o r m a t i o n 2 t o review and verify t. h e a ccuracy of the i Ti f o r m a t. i on 3 1 n that document on derm a t. o L o g y and t o x 1. c o 1. o g y ? 4 A . From the modira] department. 5 Q. This Ls the Monsanto medical department? 6 A . Correct., yes. 7 Q. And who in the medical department was fl responsible for giving you that information? 9 A. Dr. Kelly. 1 0 Q. Hr. Hamel Kelly? l 1. A. Yes. 1 2 Q. Would you have spoken personally with 13 Dr. R m m o. t tc e I. L y to verify the accuracy of: that } 4 information? lb A. It would be directed to his attention, 16 reviewed by him, and approved by him. That was his 17 responsibility on the dermatology and toxicology. IB That is the responsibility of the medical director. 19 This is 14th copy. 20 Q. Would you send him a draft of the language 2 l that you proposed to include and ask that he review 2 2 it and verify its a c*. curacy V 2 3 A . I may not have done th i s, as I indicated. 24 T h is was a e n t t. o writers w h o put this thin g 26 t o g e t h e r . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019293 / li 1 1 What 1 Ain sayimj is: Thi. a would thnn 2 have to, according to t. lie. procedure, be forwarded to 1 thfl Radical department for approval of whatever Is 4 written on the dermatology or toxicology. 5 Q . Well, wh.it r ' m trying to find out, you h.nl 6 some re a pon h i b i 1 I t. y for actually reviewing that, 7 particular version ofc the Application Oata Hullo tin H P - 1 1 b before .it w a a printed and then distributed t. o 9 customers, correct? 1 0 A . If my initials are on here, T would say. l l yes . I'm not dissociated from i t . 1 2 Q Okay. Anil I guess I'm t. ry i nq to find out 1.1 whether you personally assured yourself that all the 1 4 information in it was checked out. by the appropriate l F5 people before this th ing went to press. 1 6 A. In the procedure a/id organization of l 7 handling this, that calls for submitting these to 1 fl the medical director' for his approval on what, you're 19 talking about here. 2 0 Q. I understand. 21 A. Okay. 2 2 Q . And my - in y question is slightly 21 d i f: f r e n t . 2 4 Would you, since you had 2 1 responsibility for that document -- it's got your NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019294 /0 4 .1 1 ini._ti.al3 on it would you personally ensure that: 2 the led! cal dj red o r had , i n fact., reviewed t ha 1 :i Information and approved it: bet: ore you let the 4 document go t. o press? 5 A . I t was not. myself that, let t he document. qo 6 to press , Tt would have gone through the people who 7 handled t.he printing of this. And what was to be 8 printed, was response -- their responsibility to 9 pass to the medical director. t 0 Q. Well, T ' m t ry 1 n<j to find - - 1 1 A. That's how I interpret this, yea. l 2, Q . E ' m trying to find out who it was who 1 3 finally said, "This document, can go t.o pres a . It's 1 4 all. been verified. E t ' s all accurate , Kverything 1 b is fine." 1 6 A . On the medical t hinq, it would be Dr. 1 7 Kelly. 1 8 Q. Well, was each piece of the document, then, 19 piocaRsalfld out to somu body and nobody had a 20 checklist to make sure at. the end that Mr. Kelly 2 1 or Dr. Kelly had reviewed his part and whoever it 2 2 may be was responsible for each part, had reviewed it. 2 ) so they could say, "Well, yes, e v e r y b o d y has 2.4 reviewed it.. We qot all the okays back"? 2`j A. E think you'd have to ask -- address this NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019295 I to who the product manager was. 2 Q. The product manager? 3 h 4 I would think. 4 Q . But it w a s n ' t. n o t you? 5 A. E wan not the product manager of: the group. <* Q . Yeah. My .... Jet me rephrase my question. 7 E t wasn't you w h o had t h e a responsibility of ensuring that, everybody who was 9 supposed to review each section oC this document i o had, i n fact, done so and given their approval 11 before it was sent out? 1 2 A . No. 13 Q. Okay. Bid you, during your work in and 1 4 with POn's in the organic division and In the 1 F> inorqanj c division, ever provide copies of t heae 16 documents to anybody? 1 7 A . They were, nailed out to t.he customura . l H Q. Unsolicited? They were just mailed? 19 A . 1 wouldn't say "unsolicited." 1 don't, know 2 0 how to interpret it. They were available for 2 1 purchasers, users of rni. 2 2 Q. Okay. They could get a copy? 2 3 A. They could get a copy. This usually 2 4 transpired, E would say, through the sales 2. h d e par t. m e n 1 . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019296 r Uh 1 Q. 0 e t mn show you the next document that you 2 reviewed. Document 163h through 1 663 , which 3 according to the code wit.h your initial#, was 4 published in April of 1949 and, again, with regard *5 to the section on dermatology and toxicology, which 6 appears a t. Document. No. 16 E> 4 , internal Page No. 19, 7 ask it, again, the review of that language to ensure 8 i t. a accuracy wag the re a pons i b i 1 i t. y of the medical 9 department and Dr, Emmet Kelly. 1 0 A. That, is the place where it originated; and l t it is the responsibility of the medical department, 1 2 yeo . 1 3 (). Okay. Would the name thing be true for 14 Document 1664 through 1692, where the dermatology 1 f> and toxicology information appears on internal Page 16 19, Document No. 1683? 1 7 A. is this a different, one? 1 8 Q. Yes, it's a different one, 19 Would that also have been the 2 0 responsibility 2 1 A. This also would be, yes. 7.7. q . - of: Dr, Emmet Kelly and the medical 7 3 d e p a / t.ient? 24 A . R ight . 2 f> Q. Okay. Would the same thing be true for the NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019297 /. u / I "Dermatology and Toxicology" suction in Document 2 169 3 thx'ough 1 7 2. J , which appears at. internal Page 3 19, Document No. 1712? 4 A. This is "Dermatology and Toxicology." The 5 a n s wer in " y a . " 6 Q . So, again. Dr. K mm e t Kelly and his 7 department would bo responsible tor the review and a accuracy o f t hat. information? 9 A. That's whore the information came Cron. 1 o Q. And he would be responsible for reviewing 1t it and making suro it was accurate before it was 12 i s h e ri , c o r r e c t. ? 13 A . I hiivo to assume I: h i. 3 . 1.4 Q l f he d i d n ' t., he s h o u 1 d have? 15 A . I'm not a doctor. 1 6 Q ` Well, 3 understand. If he didn't. - l 7 A , I'm not a dermatologist nor an HD. ia Q Certainly. If he d i d n ' t review t. h a t. 19 information before it went out, he should have? 20 A. I would have to say "yes." 21 Q. It's important that information like that 2 2 be accurate, .isn't, it.7 2 3 A, Ves . 2.4 Q . Let. me go to Document. 55 through H3 and, 2 5 again, ask you about the "Dermatology and NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019298 t Tox I co Loijy" auction, which rippuars on internal Page 2 19 of the document and 74 of the cl o c u ih e n t numbering 3 sorlfltt and ask again; r n that " De rma to 1 ogy an cl 4 Toxicology" section the rospona i bi J i t.y for review 5 and correctness of Or. R nt in t Kelly in t h e medical 6 department? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q. Okay. Let me ask you specifically about 9 Document 1889 through 1918 with regard to the 1 0 "Dermatology and Toxicology" section that appears on l t Page 19 of the Internal numbering of the document 1 2 and page Document Page No. 1 908, whether that 13 "Dermatology a n d Toxicology" section was the 14 responsibility of the medical depart men t and 15 Dr. Rmmot Kelly as far as review and accuracy went? 16 MR. CRAWFORD: David, are these all in l 7 the time period we're talking about, which would be 18 '48 to -- the Fifties? 19 MR. r.ACRY: Yeah. It would go 2 0 through - - it appears from the codes, 1957, I 2 1 believe 2 2 MR . CRAWFORD: Okay. 21 MR . f, AC R Y : - was the last ono, 24 MR . CRAWFORD: Okay. So, the time. 2 5 frame is '48 to '57, roughly. Okay. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019299 /o^ L - Q. (Hy Mr. f.aeey) Would that have -- would 2 that "Dermatology and Toxicology" section have been 3 the responsibility of! Dr. Pm met Kelly a a fur as 4 review and accuracy of It. went? f> A. As medical director, ho'3 responsible f! o r (> dermatoloqy and toxicology. 7 Q. And specifically for reviewing and ensuring H the accuracy of that particular' discmiBion of 9 dermatology and toxicology, correct? 1 0 A. I would say so. l t Q. Okay, Would the same thing bo true for tho 1 2. other versions of book! els P 11b and OP-115 that we 13 have previously discussed today, in each one of 1 4 those? IS A. Yes. 1 6 Q. in each one of those. Dr. Kmmet Kelly and t 7 the medical department would have been responsible lfl for reviewing and determin i ng the accuracy of: t he 19 section on dermatology and toxicology? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. And you, to the extent you were 2 2 responsible for certain of these books, from the 2 3 codes shown on them, would not have taken upon 2 4 youvseLf to lot them be published without having 2 b been reviewed by Dr. Kmmet Kelly, correct.'-' NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019300 Iu I A. To my knowlfidqi; of; their being reissued, 3 this i fl true. I w a n not. necessarily informed of a 3 reprinting every time. My responsibility when I.' wan 4 a a 0 o c. i a t e d with the PCtn's in the nonelectriraj area !i was in preparing this information that is in the 6 bulletin. And 7 Q . Okay. Which information did you prepare 6 specifically and review for accuracy? 9 A. All right. Let's say 1 "dealt with." I 10 myself did not necessarily originate or develop the ] 1 .information. I would have acquired information that l 3 is contained in hern; and t pass it along as a 1 3 matter of knowledge and information, not that I l 4 myself developed this. lb (). 1 understand. 16 A . All right. "(loner.il Physical Properties , " 1 7 here, yes, i would review this and see to it that, it in is as it. should be. 19 Q. Okay. 3 0 A. All right. 7 1 Q. What about, the discussion on adhesiveness; 2 2 would you have had anything to do with the 33 d i s c. u n h i o n on ad he s 1 v ene s s ? 3.4 A. Vos, f would have reviewed this. And 3 b A ra c. 1 o r w ere used. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019301 /I I I Q . What about the discussion on specific 2 voluxi; would you have reviewed that.? 3 A . . Yea, I would have r o v i o w <3 d that. This i s 4 numerical, technical data. 5 Q . What a b (3 ut the discussion on averaqe 6 coefficients of expansion? 7 A . R iqh t . a Q . "CoiTOfi i on , " would you have reviewed that? 9 A. I would have reviewed that and the i o densities. ) i Q "Electrical Properties," would you have i?. rev i. e w e d that? 1 3 A . Yes, I would have reviewed that. l 4 Q "Nondry inq Properties," would you have 1 ?> revie w e d that? 16 A. Yes. 1 7 Q. ''Nonflammability"? IB A. Yes . 19 Q. "Solubility"? 2 0 A. Yes. 2) Q, "Specific Heat, and Thermal Conductivity"? 2 2 A. Yes . 2 3 Q. "Stability"? 7.4 A. Yes. 2h Q . " T h e i'm o p 1 a s t. i c i t. y " ? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019302 /. j / 1 A . Yes . 7 Q. "Vapori 3 A . Yes. 4 Q. "Vapor 5 A . J'. 1lo.0 s3 t a page, but the answer i s "yes." f> Q Okkaayy.. Now, when we comc. 7 A . Oh, yeess, "Vapor Prosauro." 8 Q. When we come to the section of the bill ] i t..i ri 9 that deals with applications ~ ~ have you Roao to 1 0 that section, yet? l l A . Oh, here it is ) 2 Q Now, would you 13 things that stated ap pl 14 A . Yes . J S Q. So, you would l 6 language about a d h o s i v o a'? 1 7 A . Yes . 18 Q . "K Inc l:r leal Kqulpmonk"? J 9 A . Yes. 7 0 Q . "Rxpans Lon Medium"? 21 A. Yes. 7 7. Q . "Hydraulic Medium"? 7 3 A . Yes. 2 4 Q . "Lubrication"? 7 S 3 didn't read all the subheadings NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019303 /. i .1 l u n do r " II y d r a u 1. i. c M e d i u m , " but 2. A . Well, yes. 3 Q. " L il b r l c a h i.on " ? 4 A . (No reaponae) 5 Q Is that - 6 A . Yes , 7 o. "Gasket and Packing" ---- "Gaskets and 0 Pack L n g Materia la"? 9 A . Yea. ] 0 Q Hut when we get down t.o "Dermatology and l 1. Toxicology," you would not have reviewed that; la i2 t h a l c o i r o c t. ? 1 3 A . When it g e t. a down to "Dermatology and l 4 Toxicology," i t la not my crea t ion - 1 ` Q I understand. 16 A . - to bog in with. 1 7 Q 1 understand. What I'm -Ifl A , This would be subject to revlewal and ) 9 approval by the medical department -- 20 Q Okay. The point I'm trying -2 J A . -- not. myself. 2 2 Q . Right. The point I'm trying to ge t. to is: 2 3 Kveryttn nq up to that page of t.h5 a <1 ocuuient. would 2 4 have been subject, to your rev L n w? 2!i A . Y e s . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019304 /l4 I - Q. Thai; one s notion would not have been 2 subject to your review and approval, corre r. t. 7 .3 A. Officially this I h correct. 4 Q. Well, what about unofficially? b A. Correct. 6 C). It wasn't. y o u r responsibility, either? 7 A. It wasn't. I say it is the responsibility a of the medical department.. 9 Q. Okay. Now, let's go on, aftor we got past l 0 "Dermatology and Toxicology" -- l t A . Yes . 1 7 Q. -- there are, then, portions of the 1.1 bulletin that deal with suggested uses for Aroclors? 1 4 A . Yes, 1 !> Q. Would you have reviewed these various I fi suggested uses? ) 7 A. Yes, I would. i a Q. Okay. And there's a whole list of uses 19 that are suggested? 20 A. Yes. 7 1 Q. And then there is a listing of othe r 2 7 literature at the very e n d of the bulletin that one 23 can get from Monsanto on specific uses. 2 4 You still need to get think it's 2 b yet a page further- in maybe:. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019305 1 ') 1 A . The next', p.wje , 2 Oh , this. .3 Q. There ' a a section of other l i to ra I. u re th.it 4 one couJrt order, l q u e a s , correct.? 5 A . Ifis , 6 Q . And wouldyou havereviewed that? 7 A - Yes. fl Q . So, theonly section ofthis entire booklet 9 that you would not very view would be ** Derma to i ogy 1 0 and T o xi col o(jy , " correct? l l A . I'm not responsible for this , yes -1 2 Q Hut you are .... l 1 A . - that ' s c o v r o c t . 1 4 o. n ut y ou are responsible for everything lri else ? 1 6 A . Yes. 1 7 Q. Okay. And that, would be true with regard l 8 to each vers ion ... 19 A . This 2 0 Q. -- of; those documents? 21 A . Thin was my work. You say 2 2 " r o s p o n s i. b i L i t y . " This was my ac t i vi ty . 2 3 Q Okay . That's fine. It's .... we're talking 2 4 about the same thing, aren't we? 2 ? A . Might.. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019306 / i t. 1 -Q . Okay , Now, let me see if we can s w itch t 0 2 another group of documents t.h a t. deal with P C H ' s ; and 3 they have a different. 3 e r i e h or at L e a s t a different 4 Bat of covers on them. I'm not sure that they're a 8 different series of documents, or the Information 6 as. 7 Hut Jet. me show you a Document. 1919 8 through 1966 and ask If you've had a chance to look 9 at that document, since yesterday afternoon? I 0 A. I've seen this yesterday afternoon, ] J {) . Now, this document has much of the same t 2 Information on PCH'a that the bulletins known as 1 3 "P-llh" or " OP-11 h" had; is that correct.? 1. 4 A. This Is correct, has much of the same 1 r> 5 nformation. 1 6 Q. Do you know whether- or not. that document l 7 was one that was generated earlier than the P and 1 B 0 p 1 1 ?i series or if this is a subsequent document, 19 that replaced those earlier ones? 2 0 A, (No response) 2 l Q. And C note for one example - 2 2 A . I'm look) nq at. the Information in here, 2 3 r t's essentially derived from these earlier ones, I 2 4 would say. Now -2 8 Q. Veah, This appears to be a later - - NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019307 2) / t A . E t appears l; h a 1; way to mo , yes. 2 Q . Okay. There's several th i n q h that, would 3 seen to Indicate t h. 11 . If you Look a t - - iowdrd the 4 end , where it gives the a d d ress for Monsanto, i L. has 55 a two d i.g i. t zonfi i n t h e Adi l L ng address . 6 Do you find that? 7 A . t: . Iiouis 6 6? B Q. Yeah. 9 A. 1 see that. now. Yes. Yes. This is out on l 0 Lindbergh Ron l ovard, yns . 1 1 Q. The -- the development of these postal 12 zones is something that, used to have, a long tiae 13 ago - 1 4 A. Two numbers, and now they're five, is it, 15 or more. 16 Q. Yeah ., Hut. we're in t. h e situation where 17 at least have got two numbers in a zone at this 1 fl point. 19 Can you t. c i .1 from review! n cj t. hat a b o u t 2 0 what date you think that document was created? 21 THR WITNKSEl: Did you write that 2 2 down ? 2 3 MR. CRAWFORD : l don't - 1 don't 2 4 t h i. n k s o . 2 5. THR WlTNKSKf I don't, think we did. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019308 e. 1 H I' MR. 0 RA W F 0 R D: That's not one you had 2 a hand in wri t.i nq, was it? 3 T H R WfTNFSfl: No. 4 MR. CRAWFORDi Okay. Well -- here, r) T ' l L take a 1. o o k a t it. 6 f f you don't, know, iut tell hi pi you 7 don't know. fl A . I don't know. 9 Q. (By Mr. f.acey) This la not a document that 1 0 you ever reviewed any portion of? l I. A . Not to my know! ndqii, no. ] 2 Q. Okay. ) 3 A. Hut. it is the same informal, ion, by and t 4 lartje, plus some other -- per hap 3 some additional 1 5 information. If. Q. And all you can tell u a is that, it appears 17 to be a ii b a e q u o n t to the P l I. 5 - 1 fl A . Yfia . 19 Q. -- OP-1 15 series? 20 A. This T would say "yes," 21 MR. CRAWFORD: David, on Page 33, 2 2 there's a footnote at the bottom referencing some of 23 the material that has a date oC 1953. Ho, 1 cjuoss 24 you could assume it must be after that; but. 1 25 that's a ]. I 1 s nft . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019309 X J 'I L Q. (Hy Mr, r.acey) And if i. t comes eM.er t h o P 2 and OP aeries, then that, would put it after about. 1 195 7 because that's the last OP series doc uine n t we 4 found, correct.? 5 Mlf. CBAWKCRDi Well, if you know. 6 A. C would - without being -- ['m not sure ot 7 the date of this. 1 didn't put it out, hut .... 1 8 neither can confirm nor reject this. 9 y. (Hy Mr. I.acey) Who would have been l 0 responsible within Monsanto Cor putting out the } 1 doaim e n t that in numbered 1919 t h rough 1 966? l 2 A. f,et me see it again. 1 3 Q. Certainly. J 4 A . T h p. person renponn ible, 1 w o u 1 d say, i a the IK product: manager. 1 6 y. What - 1 7 A. That's the ultimate person ro sponsi b1e. 10 y. f,e h mo --- let me direct your attention to J 9 the pages that have general physical properties of 20 the Aroclor compounds listed at the first of the 2 J document. 2 2 A. This? 2 3 y. Yes. Just. no. As vow f J i p in, there's 2 4 a chart-, about three or four pages in, similar to the 2r> one you previously looked at. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019310 // u 1 Keep on going. You'll Find the cturt 2 of -- got. through l he table of conlenta there. 3 A . Oh, t h i ;3 4 Q . Yes. Now, we're talking - - that's the 5 chart that shows tho general physical properties of. 6 the some of the Aroclor compounds , correct.? 7 A . As these earlier book Lets do, right. 8 Q. Yeah, very similar to the earlier booklets? 9 A . It is. J 0 Q. Yes. l l A . Isn't that it:? 1 2 Q , ( t h i n k it is. And my question .is t. h i a i 13 You indicated that you would ha v e reviewed the 1 4 information on the charts in the earlier booklets to 15 confirm its a c c; u r a r. y , correct? 16 A. Yes. 1 7 Q. Now, who would have reviewed the 10 information on the chart here to ensure its J 9 accuracy? 20 A . I do not. know, 1 t.o 1 d you that thv. 21 responsibility o rga n i / a t i.onw i se would be the product 2 7. manager. Now, there are people under him that would 7.3 have this assignment, r suppose; but he - he's the 24 person ultimately responsible. 2 5 Q. What I'm t r yin g to find out is whether you NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019311 2l \ l know who tiler or not: you, in fact, had the 2. re* pon a i b i 1 i t. y or not for reviewing that chart, for 3 that particular publication? 4 A . No . 8 Q You know t h a t. you did not? 6 A , i d 1. d not, n o . 7 Q. How do you - 8 A . r -- 9 Q.. Pardon me. How do you know you did not? l 0 A . I didn't wriho this. 1 1 Q And you know did you not review it? l 2 A . No, I did not review this. 1 3 Q Okay . 1 4 A . But., as you can a e e, much of the 18 Information came from our earlier literature. 1 6 Q . Okay. Would the same thing be true for 1 7 Document 8 4 t h r o u gh 13 1; that is, that you didn't 1 8 write it but that, much of the information contained 19 in it came from the oarlior Literature that you were 2 0 responsible for reviewing? 2 l A. This Looks like the same thing I just 2 2 looked at 2.3 Q It appears t. o bo a o t. o hi e . 2.4 A . i; c a n ' t see a difference -- anything 2.8 d 5 f f erent NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019312 I " Q Okay. An it, so, l. he same thing would be 2 t.rufi i You did not. personally review any of the 3 information in that document, but it does appear 4 that much of the information in there came from 5 oar tier documents that you did review and verify? 6 A. Yes. Yes. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A . This is an - an enlargement., a later 9 edition. 1 0 0. Okay. Let me direct your attention to l 1. another aeries of documents; and lot me hand you 1 2 Document. 234 7 through 237 7 and ask you to take a 13 Look at; that document, which is labeled "Monsanto J 4 Aakeral Inspection and Maintenance Guide." i r> Are you familial' with that document? i6 A . Yes. Yes. l 7 Q, Did you have anything to do with that 18 document? 19 A. Yea. 2 0 Q. What, did you have to do with that document? 2 l A. I accumulated the information a n d the 22 data. I worked on the accumulation of this 2 1 information and data and making rough drafts of this 2 4 information that is contained here in this 2*5 l itorature. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019313 ). 2 2 I <2 . So, you wfirn actually the person who 2 started putt.inq together what became that booklet, :i that you have? 4 A . This is r i q ht, yes. 5 Q. Okay. About when did you actually start 6 the process of preparing that document that's called 7 an "As koraL Inspection and Ma intenance Guide"? a A . It. was sometime i n the period of the early 9 t o m i d I960 ' a . 1 0 0 . Okay . D o e a t h a t document ha v e a code on it 11 a 1: the b a c k that will help you identify about when 1 2 i t. was published 1 3 (Discussion oft the Record) l 4 THE VLDROGRAPHER: We're about to go i off the record. The time is 10:43 a.m. 16 (Discussion off the Record) 1 7 THF VIDROGRAPHER: We are now hack on 18 the record. The time is 11:08 a . nt . 19 Q. (By Mr. b acey) Mr. Heniy nu s, before wo 20 took the break to lot Mr. Crawford make some phone 2 1 calls and just take our morning break, you were 2 2 looking at that inspection and maintenance guide and 2 3 you were telling me that you prepared it sometime in 2 4 the l 9 6 0 ' s? 2 b A. Yea. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019314 . ^ -i I Q AIL right. Was there any particular reason 2 why you pi'apare.d t. ha t. d o c u m e n 1. ? A. Yea. 4 Q. Why was that? l'i A. W ell, it states i t a purpose in the 6 introduction. It. a a y a why it. was prepared. V May C read it? 8 Q. Certainly. 9 A. "This manual describes the operating 1 0 characteristics of transformer Askeral liquid l 1 insulation and how it differs from mineral oil." 1. 2 Q. 8o 1 1 A. "The information is based on facts gathered l 4 by Monsanto over 10 years as producer of Askeral 1 f plus knowledqe gained from the experience of Lfi transformer manufacturers and users. t is a manual 1 7 that deals with the difference of the 18 characteristics of Liquid Askeral .is versus mineral 19 oil." 2 0 Q. What, was this to be used for? To whom 2 l would this be provided, for example? 2 2 A . This would be provided to manu f act.urer a of 21 Askeral transformers and also provided to users of 2 4 A m k e r a J transf orniorB . 2*5 Q. Now, i. n that Introduction there was a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019315 1 refiorrtncti to Mon a .in to having produced Askeral. for 2 over 30 years? 3 A, Yeah. 4 Q . Does that 3 0 - y a r period run fro m when 55 Monsanto acquired the Swann C. h o m i. c a l Comp a ny or b.irk 6 from 1930, '31, '32, when G.P. started using PC ft ' s 7 for transformer dielectric fluids? 8 A . I'm not sure. It. says, " 11 a a e d on facts 9 (j a the red by Monsanto over 30 years." I .... I can't 1 0 define it any closer than that. l l Q. You don't recall what 30-year period you 1 2 were referring to when you wrote that? i :j A . No, t do not. 1 4 Q. Okay. J S A. This was a rough - - in other words, it's l 6 been used a long time. 1 7 0. Okay. 1 8 A. It's been in use a 1o n g time. 19 Q. And .... and, if I understood your testimony 20 corrctly, PCH ' s started being used in transformers 2 1 in the early 1930's? 2 2 A. Yes . 2 3 q, So, if y o v) were talk .i n<) about, a 30-year 2 4 period, this would have to be written at least no 2 f> earlier- than the early 1960's, correct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019316 I - A. Yo3, th lh is rorrfict, 2 Q. Arid that'a when you think you wrote it., was 3 In the 1960 s? 4 A. In the 196 0 ' n . 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. Yen, 7 Q. Now, if you would, t u r n to the page of that, 8 document that talks about direct Lons for handling. 9 I think it's pretty close to the front of it there, l 0 not far after the introduction, maybe three or four 1 1 pages later. Right there, J think .... where it l 2 t a 1. k s - - 1 3 A. Yes, J 4 Q . ..... about, directions for handling? 15 A . For handling. 16 Q. And under that, there in a discussion of 17 "use ordinary personal precautions," correct? 18 A . Right. 1 9 Q. Where did you get the information that went 2 0 into that section on ordinary personal precautions? 2J A. This was obtained again, referring to 2 2 the introduction, this information was gathered," as 7.3 the introduction says, by Monsanto based on t h e 2 4 experience of 30 years, of our experience and the 2`i experience of. t r a n s f o r m e r manufacturers . In t. h e NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019317 22 7 1 introduction, some of the transformer the - the 2 main transformer manufacturers are listed here; for .1 instance, General Kler.l-.ru; Company, Wost'nujh ouac, 4 Allis-Chalmers. Others could be listed - listed. 5 To answer your question, this was ft derived from t. he experience of 30 years satisfactory 7 use in the industry. 8 Q . Well, for example, what I'm trying t. o find 9 out is whether or not you went to somebody in the 1 0 medical department, at. Monsanto t.o get the l l information that's contained here or whether you got 1 2 that. just, from your own personal knowledge. l .1 A. Not from my own personal knowledge. 1 4 Q. Okay. 1 b A. This came from the knowledge that was l 6 gathered from 10 years satisfactory use of Askeral. 1 7 Q. Okay. My question is - - l 8 A. And - - oh, excuse mo. 19 Q, My question is: To whom did you go to get. 20 the Information about that 10 -year history of; 2 1 handling Askeral? 2 2 A. This came from the people here in the 2 2 industry manufacturing and using Askeral 2 4 tranafarmers . 2 8 Q. Well, let me --- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019318 I A . And - ok.iy , 2 Q. Go ahead. I'm sorry, 1 didn't. - i didn't, 3 moan to Interrupt you. c thought you wore through, 4 but go ahead. b A . And - - you -- you asked about, my 6 knowledge. There was no knowledge, as Car as I'm 7 c oncerned n o know!edge , of t.oxi c or other 3 1 1 8 effects. So, I share this view. I share this view. 9 Q . Okay . Well, 1 et. me go back ; and let's talk 10 a b o u t t h i 3 document. And, in fact. why don't we 1 J identify some other versions of it because 1 think 12 t h c; y ' r o all essentially t h e same. And let's get 1 3 that done, maybe, before we. talk about t.he details. 14 A . Okay, i a {) . Let me a] so show you Documents 2378 through 16 2410, also 1. .ib eled "Monsanto As kora 1 Inspection and 1 7 Maintenance Guide." 10 A. Okay. 1 9 Q. Document. 2299 through 233 1 , also labeled 20 "Monsanto inkers l Inspection and Maintenance Guide"? 21 A. Yes. 2 2 Q . Documeu l. 2 12 through 24 0 , also labeled 21 "Monsanto As kora l Inspection and Maintenance Guide;" 2 4 and Document. 180 through 211, also labeled "Monsanto 2 5 Askarel inspection and Maintenance Guide" but with NELL NIC CALLUNI & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019319 2 A* L the name A L l In -Cha lnirn down at the bottom. 2 A. Oh, all r i q h t. . 3 Q. Now, what E want to a a k you La whuhhnr all 4 t h o s docunnt.n are basically copies of t ti same, 8 dor. nine n L -- 6 A . Right. 7 () . - c o n t a i n i n g the same* information V 8 A . R ight . Q. Now, Jet. me ask you, with regard to the one 10 that's got Allis -Chalmers written on it, why is 1 1 A 1 1 i s - c:ha J mera name down there on the bottom of that I. 2 document that begins Page 180? 1 3 A . A 1 J i a C! h a A m a r a made A n k e r a 3 t r a n a f o r m e r a , L 4 was one of the people making An ker.il transformers. 1 *i A 1 ) i a-Cha 3 mer a requested this literature for to L 6 tj s o anil our advertising - - I a a y "advertising" - 1 7 our literature department - I think that's a more 18 correct nomenclature in these cases than saying 19 "advertising" .... our literature department agreed to ?.0 print some of these with their namo on it -- 2 1 Q. Okay . ;>? A . - a it they w o u 1 d have far anyone else. 2 3 Q Okay . 2A A . T h a 1, occasions t. h i s . 2*i Q . I! t was still the d o o u m o n t that you had NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019320 n 1 prepared at Mona .into? / \w 2 A . Yea . Now, 1 lierp ' n an A 1 1 i a - Cha J iner a person 3 1.1 a tod hero In the introduction as having 4 participated in the. assembly and so forth of this 5 information. 6 Monsanto, realise, does not -- did n ot 7 make, design, manufacture -- that is, make, teat, H install, or use transformers. We made the fluid. 9 Q . R l cj h t . 1 0 A. This .is why the subject is "Askeral l 1. r< igu ld . " T I: is not subjected "Aakeral ) 2 Tranaf orners . " it is -- the subject, is "Transformer 13 Askeral r.iquld." Wd'vu talking about the liquid. 1 4 Q.Certainly. J !> A. Now, theae people who are listed here, they I fi are in that category of being representatives of 1 7 manufacturers and marketers, .installers, of the 18 equipment. 1 9 Q. The document, is, however, a 2 0 Monsanto-prepared document with information, in 2 1 part, you gained from others? 2 2 A. dorrec t. 2 3 q . Okay. Now, f want t o f oc. u a your a 1.1.e ntion 2 4 back on the paragraph that deals with ordinary ?.*; personal preeautionfl. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019321 X 1) 1. A . All r l g h t; . 2 Q. Again, i u a t. so we're clear, when we're .3 talking about AskeiaL, we're talking about pch ' 3 4 that M o n a a n t. o h a d the trade name of Aroclor for, S correct ? 6 A . Yea. 7 0. And are also just PCH'n, correct? 8 A. (No response) 9 Q. They're polychlorinated biphenyls, right? l 0 A. Not necessarily In all cases here, 1 3 Q, la there any Aakeral that does not contain 12 PCfl'H? 1 3 A. Well, if you go through the literature t 4 and -- and look at the formulas, there were blends 3 h of PCH's with other things. l 6 Q, Yes. Hut i.3 there any Aukeral that does 1 7 n o t. contain PCH's? t 8 A . Oh, put that way, correct. 1 9 Q. Okay. There are d i f f e rent, formulas for20 blending - 2 3 A. Correct. 2 2 Q. --- PCH'n to meet the specifications of 2 3 General. R lc t r ic or- Wea t i nghous o or A l l 1 s Cha l me r 3 24 or whoever? 2 tS A. This i. a right. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019322 2 \/ I Q . Rut; t h e y a I. L c o n t ,i in P C R ' 3 ? 2 A . Right. 3 0 . . Or w h a l Mon s a n t. o cii) ] p.d "Arodo r s " ? 4 A . Right. f> 0,. Okay. Now, talking about, those ordinary 6 personal precautions, we have that same - this same 7 information in each one of these document n we've 8 -just looked at - 9 A . Yes. l 0 Q . - - each version of: them. } J Now, did you acquire information on t 2 ordinary personal precautions from talking wLth 1 3 General Hleclric and We y I. j nq h oil s e and l 4 Allis- C. ha I * o r s V 1 !> A . Not exclusively. 1.6 Q. Whore else did you acquire information o n 1 7 t. h a l. 7 18 A . Monsanto, 19 Q. And from wI\odi at. Monsanto did you acquire 2 0 such information? 21 A . Our plant people, as supported by I he 2 2 industrial hygiene people. 2 2 Q. Are they in - the industrial hygiene 2* pet) pie in the medical department? 2h A . Yew. They're* with Dr. Kelly. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019323  l " Q. So -- 2 A . He was no t. t h e only on e ther e . 3 Q. Okay. So, you would 4 A . This is u consensus ~ r> Q . Okay . 6 A . - - in other words. 7 Q Okay. 8 A , Tt is a consensus, in-house an out - house 9 Q Okay. These art? n o t j u s h your though ts ? 1 0 A . That is riqhl. l t Q . They 1 2 A . I acquired these thoughts. I wa s in an 13 office. like y ou are. ] 4 Q And t. h e s e thoughts, then, includ e the 15 thought s of M o n s a n t o ' s medical department? If. A . These thoughts were c e r t. a i rt 1 v checked with 1 7 the medical department at some period in time. 1 8 Q . And they approved w h a t. you said? 19 A. They must have - - the --- the procedure was, 7 0 from a product, group, an we went through before, 2 l whan literature like this is composed and then, i n 27 the -- the writing department, I think we railed 2 3 them rather than advertising, they would set up the 24 format . 25 Now, in-house at Monsanto, this is to NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019324 /: j -I t bo paastid onto the nindir.a l department. 2 Q. Okav 3 A . So, I assume that it. was done s a . 4 Q. Okay. So, my - my apftc i. Pic qufistlon is: fi Han this directed for review to the modi ca 1 6 depa r 1. mon t ? 7 And your answer ia you think ho. 8 A. C think no. 9 Q . Okay. Now, did you also have this l 0 information on personal precautions reviewed by the 1 1 plant, managers at. the plants that, made PCB'a? l 2 A. Not directly, no. No. 1 3 Q. Did you do it. indirectly? l 4 A. f would -- T would say, really, no, other 1 6 t. h a ti - to my knowledge - - this is my personal 16 knowledge was not aware of anything that would 1 7 be cont.ra7'y to this. 1 8 Q. Okay. But. the actual review process, then, 19 at Monsanto involved what you knew and what the 3 0 medical department, knew? 3 1 A. Correct. 3 3 Q. And nobody else, correct? 3.3 A. That is the answer to your question. 3 4 Q. Okay. Now, I note in l.h i s section on 3.6 ordinary personal precautions you si: a to that AskeraL NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019325 / -> *J I has brp.n made , handled, and used fior ovnr .'I 0 y,i r3 2 without, cauai nq toxic or other iJi effects. f a that 1 what your statement was? 4 A . That's what, it says. 5 Q . And yo 11 believe that to bo true? 6 A . As far as ! know. 7 Q. And would you consider anybody who might 8 qt l sick enough to s eek medical attention having had 9 a t ox i.o or i l 1. <j f: I: c t ? J 0 A. Would what.? 1 1 Q. if somebody who had made, handled, or used l 2 Askera l had a sufficient medical problem to seek i :i medical attention, would you consider that, a toxic L 4 or ill effect? i r> A . Yes, 1 would consider t.ha t something to 16 call and go see the medical department. 1.7 Q . So, you -- t 8 A. Yes. 1 9 Q . You understood t he statement, here t o inean 2 0 that nobody who had made, handled, or used Askeral. 21 had ever gotten sick enough to need medical 2 2 attention, correct;? 23 A . R'lserili.iJ ly , yes. 2 4 q . 0k.1 y . And certainly not to have died from 2 f> i t? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. HARTOLDMONO019326 / .3 o l A . That's right. 2 Q Okay. Now, the next, sentence says, " ;f t can 3 be handled" -- and "It," you're talk In cj about the 4 PC -i A . A s k e r a L . 6 Q . A a k e r a 1 , the material c o n t. a i n i n g PCH ' a , 7 r.orroc 1: ? a A . Right . 9 Q. " tt. can be handled wi th only minor l 0 p r o c a u fc i o n g " ? i ] A . Yea . J 2 Q . What, did you consider to be minor l 3 pruciiu lions? 1 4 A . What T would consider here to be minor l `3 precautions is sensible cleanliness and avoidance of 1 6 long-term e x p o a u r e to the skin or t. o the v a p o r a ; and 17 if it were to come in contact with the skin, to wash l a the akin . That is how 1 interpret t. hia. 19 What l am saying is: Our people, to 2 0 ay knowledge, did not wear complete rubberized 2 1 suits. They wore ordinary clothes in our plants. 2 2 And - 7 3 Q . No special clothing? 2 4 A . No special clothing. 2 a However-, if accidentally it. was NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019327 / .) / I a p L I. l ed, they would have removed their clothing 2 instead of continuing to wear the clothing with t. h c 3 A a k o r a 1 spilled over themselves. 4 Q Okay , And you would h a v .... *7 A . They would have washed themselves f. Q Okay. You cons 1 d e r .... 7 A. They did not wear special glove3 and so 8 f or t.h . 9 Q They didn't have any special gear for their l 0 hands or their feet or their heads or anything like 1 1 t. hat? J2 A . No special gear, no helmets well , hard l 3 h a 1. s t: o r mechanical .... no space-age suits. 1 4 c>. 0 k a y . l 8 A . All right. 1 6 Q. Well, did they have space-age suits back 17 t. h o n ? 1 H A . (No response) 19 Q That's a serious question. mean. 1 Imvo 2 0 seen -- you know, in recent, years 1 have seen on TV 2 l wo -- wo had a b i. g chom i c a 1 sp ill up h e r e In ft a s t 2 2 Texas not t. o o 1 o n g ago. where a train ran o f f the 2 3 1. racks . And on TV you c ou lii see people out there 2 4 with thes e w h i t. e suits. all covered up. 2 8 Did they have stuff like that back NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019328 / .1 H I when yo,j1 were writ In(7 this? 2 A. I would say not to the typo that, they have* 3 now. They would - ~ they had pro too Live e l o thine; on 4 a savers situation. 5 Q. Okay. And it was your1 understand i ikj that, 6 the way Monsanto handled PCfl's in their plants, they 7 didn't have any special protective gear for their 9 heads, their hands, their feet, or anything like 9 t. hat.? 1 0 A. This is correct.. l l Q . And you wouldn't consider s p o clal 1 2 protective gear for the head, the hands, the feet, 13 and stuff Like t h a t minor precautions, would you? 1 4 A. No, Those are unusual precautions. lr> Q, Okay. Now, you go on to say, "If it's 1 6 accidentally spilled on the hands no serious skin l 7 irritation will occur"; is that correct? i a A . T h a t.'s - - that's what it. says?. L 9 Q. Where did you get that information? ?.Q A . This information came from the cons enau a of 21 the people in the industry and from the experience 22 in Monsanto's plant. - plants.1 w o u .1 d include, 2. 3 t h i s . ?. 4 q . Now, where did you get. the information on 7.9 I. he experience in Monsanto's plan t h ? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019329 2 :> 4 1 A. I would nuv this wan run through the 2 industrial hygiene people, again, in I. he medical 3 department. 4 Q Medical department? `5 A . Yes. 6 Q Y o u q o o n to nay t. hat. - - t. h a t, "If Askerai 7 is spilled on the hands, prolonged contact may lead 8 to drying and chapping of the akin"? ') A . This is right. 10 Q- That's kind c>f like if you're out. in the l 1 winter w n d and your skin dries out? 1 2 A . It's like if you have your hand in paint l 3 1, h i n n e v , is what it. says here. 1 4 Q. Okay. i r> A . It. removes the oils from the skin. 16 Q . Was tl\ere any problem that: you suggested 1 7 resulting from prolonged contact, with the skin, 10 other than drying and chapping? 19 A . Not t o my knowledge. 2 0 Q. So, the one reason you'd want to --21 A . However, I think if you'll go into this 2 2 further, it says if avoid prolonged contact with 2 3 t. he :ik i n 2 4 Q * My question is: The only thing t hat y o u 2 75 indicated might occur .is a result of prolonged NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019330 1u 1 contiict was drying and c h a p p i n q of the skin? 2 A. No. No. 3 Q. What. -- where e 1 s e do you indicate there's 4 any other* problem that can result from prolonged 5 contact, w i t h t. he s k i n ? 6 A . You're talking to mo now. 7 Q . Yea . 8 A . Right. I am not. a dermatologist nor an 9 MO . 1 0 Q . Yeah . 1 1 A. I have gone as far in my thinking on this, 12 not being a dermatologist or medical person,, as I 1 3 can go. Now, I don't know you're asking me, t 4 "What else?" This is a medical question. 1 8 Q. That's a different. - - I'm sorry. Maybe I I 6 didn't ask my question well. 1 7 I'm t.ry i nq to find out what else you 18 told people in this document might result from 19 prolonged contact of PC'B's with the skin, other than 2 0 drying or chapping? 21 A . T don ' t. t. h 2 2 Q. Ok ay . 2 3 A . :i n t. h i h 2 4 Q . Ok ay . So ,, ?.`> they would be reasonable in concluding that the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019331 24 1 I reason you wantod I; o avoid prolonged contact with 2 the skin was to keep it from chapping and drying, 3 correc t? 4 A. I don't agree with that fully, 5 Q . Okay. 6 A . That. 1 a part of it. 7 Q. What else would they conclude would result B ftom prolonged contact, with the skin? 9 A, I don't know what they would conclude. 1 0 Neither- do 1 know what sight conclude. l l What i. s going to be said here Is, 1 2 "Avoid long-term exposure"; and what is definitely 1 3 said, " L f spilled, wash it off" "wash with soap ) 4 and water." i r> I cannot, con jecture what might, happen. 16 Q. Well, E -- that's 1 7 A. I don't, know. I don't know what, you're 18 asking for. T don't - 19 Q. What what 1'm trying to find out - 2 0 A. This is not a medical ~ this is not a 21 medical dissertation. 2 2 Q . Well - - 2 3 A. This is a consensus from people handling 2 4 A s k e r a l in the transformer manufacturing area and in 2. fi our plants, t. heir experience. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019332 , i, 1 Now, r. ha vo no know), edge bevond what 2 I've said here. Now, if iiomeone else does have 3 knowledge, I don't have i. t . 4 Q. Okay. b A . W o vi ] d o \i r m e d 1 c a 1 people have i 1 ? t don't 6 know. You'd have to ask thorn. 7 Q. Well, .lot me ask you this. :f'm iust t. Tying 8 to f i nd out what you've said and what you think 9 people should have understood from it, because - ~ l 0 A. What l think people 3houl.d understand from 1 1 what I said then, now, and at any time, this is not l 2 soda pop. This material.. It Is said, "Avoid 1 3 prolonged contact, with the skin. If there is skin l 4 contact, wash In an ordinary way with soap and 1 S water, No special washings are required." 16 Ami it also somewhere - - C'm - - j; 1 7 can't read all of this- at once - somewhere it says, Ifl "Avoid breathing the fumes and the vapors." 19 Now, my premise here is: If someone 2 0 adheres to this, they're going to bo all right. 21 Q. Well, what, was "prolonged contact"? if a 2 2 person contacted it during a shift when ho was 2 3 working, would it. be appropriate for him to wash 7 4 carefully at the conclusion of his shift? 3 ?> A. If he had A ak e r a 1 on his skin, he should NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019333 24 J l wash at the time - - immediately after It - 2. Q. Ha a hou1d waah - .1 A . -- in my opinion. 4 Q. -- immediately? 5 A . 1 would say so. 6 Q Okay . 7 A . Then -- and this is not prolonged. An fl eight hour exposure is prolonged exposure. 9 U Did you say in here t.o wash immediately? l 0 A . tt says It - - if it contacts the skin, wash ] 1 it.. Ha s h i t -- - ' 1 2 Q - Doe a n't say to do it. immediately, does it? l1 A . Weil, I don't know. Tt may say if they ] 4 wash t h e akin - in case of contact --- in case of l l5 contact. wash off the akin; in case of contact -- ] 6 Q . Yeah. l 7 A . - - wash it off. lfl Q And by that., you meant to say, "In ca a e of l 9 contact, Immediately wash off the skin"? 20 MR. CRAWFORD; Wei], he said what he 2 t said . 2 2 A . i - - t. it e a e a r e t. h e words I said. 2 3 Q. (Py Mr. f.acey) Well, what T'm trying to 2 4 find ou t. is: Do you read that. -- 2`S A . What C say here, "Do not have prolonged NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019334 X44 I rtxposuru . E f conUrl:, wash L t off , " 2 Q . And y ovi 1h i nk that, should be don?1 .1 Immediately, correct? 4 A . Kaaentially .... I'm not. agreeing wi t.h wh a t. '3 you indicated, that you go around eight hour a with 6 it on during the work day. 7 Q. Well, that's what I'm trying to Sind out. a A. Oh, you better believe this ia my intent. 9 Q. Lt waa your intent that they immediately 1 0 was h ? 1J A. If one contacts it -- if this happens, wash i?. it ofl:. 1 3 Q. immediately? 1. 4 A. I wo viId -- I would say that ia - this is lf> what I myself would do. 16 Q. Okay. And as Car as clothing, was it your 1 7 intention that in the event FCH ' a got on clothing l 8 that they should immediately I'emove that clothing 19 and change into fresh clothing? 20 A. Well, let me read this. Where is this -- 21 Q. It's the same 22 A . oh, all r i g ht . "Wash off the skin with 2 3 soap and water." It. says "remove." 24 Q. yes. And my question 2 a A, Now, yes. T a gice with you,immediately. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019335 F. 1 b I Q. Immediately in what you meant? 2 A. Lot me say promptly, without undue delay, 3 reasonable promptness. 4 Q. Which doesn't, ne.an at. the end of a shift. if 5 someone - - 6 A . Oh, t. h i s is correct.. 7 Q. Okay. Okay. fl A. This is absolutely correct.. 9 Q. Okay. And that's what you intended to 1 0 convey when you wrote these words? l l A . This i. a right. 1 2 Q- Okay. 13 A. Without. yes, this is absolutely the -- l 4 t he intent. 15) Now, do you want to read about t. he 16 eye? 17 Q. If you want. to. I don't, have any questions IB about It; but if you want to go Into it, well, 19 fine. 20 A . Well, if j t qetfi in the eye, it. is going to 21 be Irritate -- irritating. You can count on LL. 22 Hut. permanent, damage -- it says, "no permanent 2 3 damage . " 24 It. says, "Flush with large amounts of 2 3 water," and then goes on to say, "Bee the eye NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019336 21 6 1 doctor." 2 Now, here aqai ii, the implication As 3 don't hang around night hours to tend to this. 4 Promptly, if At gets in your eye, do something about 5 it. Wash it with copious amounts - - you'll want to 6 do it., believe hi e. 7 0. Well, let me ask you about that. You fl didn't advise anyone to see a physician if they got 9 it. on their skin, only if they got it in their eye, l 0 correct? J 1 MR. CRAWFORD t Well l 2 A . This As c o r r e e t. ) 3 MR. CRAWFORD*. Wait. l 4 A. -- on shortterm contact yes. 1 5 MR. CRAWFORD He said, "recommend Ifi that they seea physician." I don't see that in 1 7 there. 1 fl THK WJTNKSHs Here. "To relieve the 19 irritation, physicians have used" -- well - 2 0 MR. CRAWFORD i Yeah, but doesn't, 2 l say -- okay. it says what they -~ 2 2 A. "If Aakeral" - "flush with large amounts 2 3 of water a s with .ill eye first aid." 24 MR. CRAWFORD: So 2.5 MR. [.ACHY : "Refer to a physician," do NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019337 24 / 1 you nee that, Walter. 2 MR. CRAWFORD; Yeah, but. ~~ 3 THR W ITNKSS : Yes . 4 MR. CRAWFORD: Oh, you mean it - - it. 5 mentions a physician, but it doesn't say qo to one. 6 MR. I.ACRYt Well, it. flays, "refer.to a 7 p h y a i r. 1 a n . " 8 TWR WITNESS; It. says, "refer to a 9 phya iclan . " 1 0 Q. (By Mr. I.accy) Mr. Beniqnus, doesn't - 11 A. Yes . 12 Q. --- "refer t.o a physician" mean qo to a 13 doc tor? 14 A . Yes . IS MR. CRAWFORD; Okay. lfi A. And this ia the meaning of it, yes. 17 MR. CRAWFORD; Okay. 1 8 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Okay. Anythinq else you 19 want to comment on that? Are you satisfied? 20 A. Wo. I'm satisfied. 21 Q. Okay. 2.2 A . You know what, my meaning is here. There's 2 3 no use for us to do bate this thing -2 4 Q . 3 think you're riq h t. 2 5 A . - ~ further. NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019338 `1 o 1 Pardon? 2 Q. I think you're right. That's a matter that 3 the jury can resolve for us. 4 I,et. me show you another document., 2 2 67 5 through 2 298. And this i. a "Monsanto Asker a J. 6 Inspection and Maintenance Guide, Revised September, 7 1963." Do you aee that on the cover - 8 A . Yes . 9 Q . ... _ where it says "revised"? 10 Now, is that a subsequent version to 1 J the ones we've been lookinq at.? 12 A . C would say so, yes. 13 0 So, the others must have been written 1 4 sometime before September, 1963? 1 5 A . Yes . 16 Q. If you would, find the section in that 17 revised version that deaLs with the handling 18 procedures and look at. it. and tell me whether those 19 are the same as the ones in the previous nonrevised 20 version. 21 A . Looks the same to me. 2 2 Q. Okay . 23 A . To me, it - - i t.'s the same. 2 4 Q. All right. Now, let me direct your 2 ii at.t.ent.ion t.o some more Aakeral Inspection and NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019339 /. A -> t Maintenance 0u ldes . first, 1 want to show you 2 Doruaent 2450 throuqh 24/7. This has qot a .1 different cover on It - 4 A . Yes, i t. does . 5 Q . - - but i. s that a n o t h e r version of that same 6 inspect i o ti and maintenance guide that you prepared? 7 A. It encompasses it, yes, plus there is more 8 information in this. It's an - - it. has addition to, 9 expansion of, enlargement of. 10 And the date do you have the date I. I of this? 1 2 Q Well, 1 wan going t.o ask you about that. 1.1 A . 1 would say 1975. 1 4 Q 1 9 7 5? l 5 A . t think that's the date. 16 Q . Okay. I *ve got one -- 17 A . I can't read it there. The date isn't on 18 here. It's blocked off. there. Rut. that, I think - 19 do wo have any other copy of that? 2 0 Q. I've qot. some other copies that indicate' 2 l thoy wore revised. T have one that indicates it was 2 2 revised in March of '75, and another one .iridicatinq 2.1 it was revised in August of '76. Rut this one 24 apparentiy is not the revised one. 2 5 Now, C wondered if maybe you could NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. HARTOLDMONO019340 /b0 L help me try to date this. Were were you involved 2 in thia? 3 A . I was n o L t h e r e . 4 Q. When th i. s was done? i> A . When this w a a done. 6 Q E see . So , the language in this document 7 :i a sometime after your retirement in 1 974 ? 8 A . Correct. 9 Q. Okay. Were these inspection and I. 0 maintenance qu Idea that we've previously looked at, 1 ] in particular the ont: that, was reviued in September l 2 of: 1963, the one that remained in use until the time 1 3 that, you ret i r e <1V J 4 A . Yes. 1 don't know of anything other. L 5 Q. Okay. f.ot me - - let me get that copy back 1 6 from you. 1 7 So, if J understand correctly, the 18 document marked 7.267 through 2298 was the Aakeral 1 9 "Monsanto Askerai Inspection and Maintenance 2 0 Guide" - 21 A . I t. h i n k the wire broke. 22 Q. fJIv-oh . hot'a Lot me see if: l can help 2 2 you got that, hooked back together here. 1 think it. 2 A just popped out oC your holder. ?S A. Yeah. Oh, T see. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019341 2.t> l L Q . There you g o . 2 A. Thank you. 3 Q . , Let me - - let ino go back and ask that 4 question, and ) et. mo have t he document, hack ho we 5 can a e t it clear. 6 A . (Witness compiles) 7 Q . I ft ft understand your testimony, then, the B "Monsanto Aakeral Inspection and Maintenance Guide" 9 revised September, 1963, Document No. 2267 through 1 0 2298, was the document that Monsanto made available l t about its transformer Aakera'J. from 1963 until your 1 7 r e 1.1 r e in e n t. in 1 9 7 4 ? L 3 A. (Witness nods head) J.4 Q. Is lliat. correct? l 5 A. I wouLd say that is correct. 1 6 Q. And, then, t.he document that I've shown l 7 you, another updated "Monsanto Inspection" -- 1 0 AskeraJ Inspection and Maintenance Guide, Document L 9 2450 through 2477, is an updated revision that 70 didn't come out until after you had left Monsanto in 2 1 1974? 2?. A . This is correct.. 2 3 Q. And you didn't have anything to do with 2 4 updating that inspection and maintenance guide? 2.3 A . R 1 g h t . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019342 2 > 2 1 Q. And, then, when wo coe to the "Monsanto 2. Transformer flukera] Inspection and Maintenance 3 Guide," revised March, 1975, Document 24L through 4 2 68, that's a revision of the one I've -just shown 5 you, but, again, prepared after your retirement, 6 correct? 7 A . Correct. 8 Q And, then, when we c one -9 A . This has the date on 11. 10 Q Yes, it. does. l l A . Yeah 1 2 Q Tha t. 'a a revision of the one -13 A . Oh , r sue. 1 4 Q . - - that doesn't, have a date. 15 A . A l 1 right. Well, is it? Weil -TM J f> Q T believe it. is. l 7 A . Yeah , it seems to be 18 Q You ' 11 note t. h a t the first, one doean 19 the "S" In the number. 7 0 A . Doesn't have an " R" in what, number? 2 1 Q. Let me show you here. 2 2 A . Oh, all r i q h l . A !l J r i q h t. . You're 2 3 looking. 3 8 and this La 3 8- 8. 7 4 Q . You'll see this is known as bolh the No. 2 5 T C / F F .3 8 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019343 I A . R iqht . 2 Q. - - and the one-: that, w a a revised in March of 3 197 S la IC/FF-38-R. 4 A. This is riqht. . 5 Q . And Lhfin lot: mo show y <a \i t h e Last o n o , 6 "Monsanto Trans former Aakeial inspection and 7 Main ten,i n c a Guide," Document 2470 through 2505. 8 You 1 I 1 note it has the same bulletin nunber, 9 IC / P F - 3 8 - 1 0 A . Right, R-2. 1 t Q. - but it*3 R-2 and shows it was -- ]? A. '76. 1.3 Q . - ftivisnd August:, '76. 1 4 A . Exactly. ] fi Q. So, all three of t. hose last ones t. hat all 16 have the different cover on them -- could you just 1 7 hoJ d one of ttioue up so the camera can aee what the L 8 covav looks like? 19 A. (Witness complies) 20 Q. Those "Transformer isker.il Inspection and 2 1 Maintenance Guides" were all produced after 19/4, 22 when you retired? 2 3 A. This ia right. 2 4 Q. Okay. Fine. And you, then, wouldn't know 2 b who put. in t h e information on toxicology and NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019344 / *4 I diivna to lo<jY in thons documi! n t. s ? 2 A . No . 3 Q. You 4 A . 3 wasn't there. 5 Q. You wouldn't claim any responsibility tor 6 i t. at all; is t h a t. e one c t V 7 A. I wasn't there. 8 Q. Okay. Well, T guess what. I'm asking you 9 isi You weren't working on a revision of that 10 document before your retirement, or any-thing? 1 1 A , No . 1 2 Q. Okay. I.et me show you some more documents 1.3 that relate to transformers and Askeral. 1 4 First, Jet me show you a document, IS called, "When Specifying Transformers, Here's How To 16 Get More Money and" .... "More Performance and Save L 7 Money," a document 0/FF--14, with No. 2 411 through 1 fl 2 4 2 5. 1 9 Have you seen that document before? 2 0 K. Not in this form. I've seen It 21 Q Did you 2 2 A . -- in a different form . 23 Q- Okay . And w h a t. i s different ? T h e cover? 2A A . T h e - - the -- not onLy the e over; but it 2 5 was a folder, about this large, t.hat unfolded. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019345 /. -i -> 1 Q. 1 think if: y o u ' L L look at that, that may bo 2 a copy of a uc h a document, that did unfold because a n you look Inside -- - 4 A. It has to be. '5 Q. Okay. When this t h i n g was original Ly in 6 Monsanto'a manufacture, it. was somet. hinq that, folded 7 out into a longer sheet? fl A . yea. 9 Q . Okay. Does that appear t.o be a copy of 10 that folder that you've previously seen? 1 1 A . R i q h t. . 12 Q. Did you have - 1 3 A . yes. 14 Q . -- anythinq to do with preparieq that L 5 folder? 1 f. A. T know when it was prepared. And this was 17 prepared by a writer in the advertising department, IB and I'm aware of this. It. has some of the. same 19 statements in it that our maintenance guide has in 2 0 it. 21 Q. Let. me ask you to look at the page that's 22 labeled or the section that's labeled "Why 2 3 A s k e r a 1, " close to the front. 3.4 A. oh, yes, "Why lskflr.il . " 2 [> Q . it. says there "For almost. 40 years A s k e r a 1 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019346 i transforraers," and goes onto describe It. That 2 would indicate, would it not, that this document was 3 written around 19/0? 4 A. No. I appreciate your analysis here. If b you will -- and this is what I was looking at - it 6 says "30 years" elsewhere. 7 Q. Well, yeah. In the documents you wrotn in 8 the early f> 0 ' s , it said 3 0 years? 9 A. Go does this, 10 Q. Well, here it nays "40 years." l 1 A. c do not disagree. 1 ?. Q. You think that's - I 3 A. That's riqht. 1 4 Q . - ~ a typographical error? 1 5 A . This Is lightweight. It's a leaflet. Is 1 6 is what, it is, put. out. by a writer in the -- in our 1 7 advertising department. ] 8 Here, "There are many examples of over 19 30 years oE trouble-free operation," 30 years. Now, 20 here, 4 0 years is lined. This -- this is nothing 2\ critical. It has no significance -22 Q . I understand. 2 3 A. - - is what I a( saying to you. 2 4 Q . Well, I'm -ju s t. trying t.o figure ou t. when 2b the document was written. And if, in fact, it were NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019347 75 1 1 true that for almost 4 0 years Askeral t ran a former a 2 had been used then this document, would have been 3 written in the early Seventies or around that? 4 A . 1 think you're, right.. 5 Q. Okay. Do you believe it was. In fact, 6 wri tt.en around 1970? 7 A , No . 8 (). When do you believe it was written? 9 A. This was written in the mid 1960's. 1 0 Q Okay. So, this ia a little bit. of 11 overstatement when i.t says 40 years? 1 2 A . It's an aberration 1.1 Q Okay. Now, there are - - strike that. 1 4 What wan the purpose of this pamphl et.V 15 A . bet's look at the pictures -1 6 Q okay . 17 A . If we may. 1 0 Q Re happy to. 19 A . Here ' s a building similar to what we have 70 where we are. Here's another one. Here i 8 a 21 shopping center. T. t -- - if T m i gh t -- - am r qolnq too 22 fa3t? 21 Q No. Fine. 2 4 A . Here i - - ia this a a c h o o1? This i a a 2 5 school. evidently. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019348 2SH 1 Q . Okay. 2 A. Ha a the fJaq. This is - 3 Q . Looks l i k a space ncudlo In Seattle or 4 somethinq. 5 A. Yes. It's a commercial area. Here we have 6 some morn. You'Ll see here a hospital ~~ 7 Q . Uh-huh . 8 A . - -- hiqh-riae; again, shopping center; 9 industrial load center; schools - 1 0 Q . (lh- huh, l l A. .... wo were r igh t on that. 1 2 That's the end of t. he pictures. l 3 Now, here's a transformer. 1 4 Q. Right. IS A . This ia a leaflet., a flier, that. indicates Ifi use. the popular use, and Location of A s k e r a 1 17 transformers. What this is saying, as you can see ia f r o the pictures, the place, the Location, of use 19 of an Askeral transformer, in general it is used in 20 a populated -- people -- populated area where 21 judgment has been made that warrants spending the 2 2 increased money to have a transformer that is fire 2 3 resistant. Now, t h a t. is the overall premise for the 2 4 application of AskeraL transformers. I could add 2`i other places. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. . HARTOLDMONO019349 I (J h - h u h . 2 A. Now, the purpose of this is to qo to makers 3 of Alkerdl transformers, just as you have there, 4 A 11 i a-Cha 2 aer a . They qot. this, too, as did other 5 transformer makers. Insurance people would get 6 t. h i a . Archi t.ects and contractors would get this. 7 They build these buildings. The engineering 8 department, the maintenance department, the design 9 department, what have you, of Industrial places; 1 0 such as, the automotive industry; such as. Clour l l mills, places that are dusty, cement plants, and so 1 2 forth, places where there is anticipated to be water 13 exposure, this kind of thing. 1 4 This is for general information and 15 circulation. 1 6 Q. Is it fair to say that, this was designed 17 not only to go to people who manufactured 1 8 transformers, but, also, to people who might specify 19 transformers? 20 A . Yes. 21 Q. And the goal was to encourage those people 2 2 to specify Askeral or PCH transformers in locations 2 3 that. Monsanto and others thought, were good ones for 2 4 PCR transformers? 2.5 A. Where Monsanto -- wait a minute. I'm going NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019350 i. b U 1 to chamje th l 3 , 2 Q. Peel free, 3 A. Where Monsanto was informed that the 4 consensus of people who had .... were in position to 5 select transformers did, Lndeed, select Askoral t.ransformers and install them in those locations. 7 And some of those are represented here. 0 Q. Well, you can agree with mo that in some of 9 these particular uses, there were other non-PCB } 0 products that, might be competing to be the t l transformer selected by, say, an architect for a 1 2. particular use, can't you? t:j A. In those applications that are depicted 1 4 here, 1 would not put. a mineral oil transformer, 15 neither would the insurance people 1 6 Q. Wei 1 , 1 guess 17 A. -- to give an example. 18 (). I guess I'm trying to find out. whether this 19 document warn designed to put out information that 2 0 Monsanto thought, was appropriate to get. architects, 21 builders, and owners to say that they wanted Askorai 22 transformers. 2 3 A. Correct. And it. stems from our knowinq 2 4 that this is, indeed, what was in vogue and was 2 5 being done. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019351 /b ) t Q. I understand. 2 A . Correct. . 3 Q. And one of the reasons M o n a a n t o wontd be 4 interested In people apoc Ifiying Askeral t ru n a f:' o r me r a b is because Mon a dnt.o made all the PCB ' s that. went 6 Into those transformers? 7 A. I think that ia obvious. 8 Q. And the more Asker a l transformers that were 9 specified, the acre PCB ' a Monsanto could make and 10 sell, correct? 1 1 A . Correct.. l 2 Q. Okay. And that's why you would be 13 interested in putting out. literature to encouraqe 1. 4 people to use Askeral trunsf omers? 1 5 A. Correct. 1 6 Q. Okay. Now, there -- in this literature is 17 a discussion not only of Askoral transformers, but 18 what. Monsanto believed were the advantaqes of 19 Askeral transformers over other transformers that 2 0 might be used, correct? 2 1 A. Oh, I'll say "yes." And we didn't think a 2 2 mineral oil t.ranaformer would have any advant.aqe. 2 3 q . Right. And you even compared them to 2 4 dry-type transformers? 2 8 A. Correct. Now we are in gear. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019352 X (. / I Q. Okay. 2 A. Right. 3 Q. And one ran compare the fire capabilities, 4 noise capabilities, the need to build a vault to b maintain .... 6 A. Water exposure, dust exposure, and hazards 7 from that sources in the caso of a open dry-type. 8 In other words, really there are places where one 9 should not Install an open dry-type transformer. 10 Q. Okay. Now, there are potential problems l 1 with Askoral transformers in places like office 1 ?. buildings and schools, are there not? L 3 A. Any piece of electrical apparatus can be - 1 4 no piece of electrical apparatus, transformer, no 18 matter what It is, that doesn't have something to be 16 concerned about. 1 '/ Is this what, you were asking? 18 Q. Yeah. r guess i u s t in view of this 19 advertising literature 2 0 k. They can all explode, for example. 7.1 Q. Yeah. And and the explosion of a PCH 2 2 transformer can cause problems, just like the 2 3 explosion of an f> i 1 t.ran s f ormer V 2\ A. Or of a dry-type transformer. 2 S Q. Certainly. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019353 <.0.1 I A. They could cause more problems. 2 Q . Well, axe you f a m i ] i a r with t.he triinatormer 3 that exploded Ln the oft; ice building in 13 in q ham ton, 4 New York? it A . 1 heard of t hat.. That was after 1 1 e f t. 6 Q But you've heard about that problem? 7 A . I've heard a boil t. that . 8 u. And do you know what happened up there? 9 A . ln a general way , yes. It was -* the to transformer exploded. It was Ln a -- this was a 1 1 very rare incident of -- of a failure. Now -- t 2 Q. Hut it contaminated the whole building with J 3 PC FI ' a , didn't it? 1 4 A. You said "exploded." 1 don't know that it 15 exploded. L was not in the area on this. 1 6 Q. 1 understand. What have you hoard? i 7 A. There was a failure, let me say. 1 9 Q. Yea. And that resulted in the building 19 being contaminated with PCB'u, did It not? 2 0 MR. CRAWFORD*. Just tell him what you 2 l know, Mr. Ran Minus. Answer his question. 2 2 A. Well, the building was contaminated with 23 PCH . 2 4 Q. (Fly Mr. Lacey) And that building stands 25 vacant to this day because of that problem, doesn't NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. HARTOLDMONO019354 /h4 I i t? 2 MR. CRAWFORD: If you know. 3 A.. I don't know. I havo not - - this i. a E t h r 4 y time. ft Q. (Ry Mr. Lacey) You really haven't, followed 6 what'a happened to PCB'3 since your retirement? 7 A. I have not. And the kind of incident that, a you're talking about la very rare. The incident of 9 failure, as judged by the Edison Electric Institute 10 when t was involved, waa of the order of a ew 3 3 hundred!.hs of a percent per year, which is, indeed, 12 very low. 1 3 So, I do know that, in later years, 14 there wa3 this failure. You said in ~ in New 1 ft York? 16 Q. Binghamton, New York. 17 A. Binghamton, New York. 3 8 Q. Okay. You just haven't followed up on what 19 happened In things like that? 20 A . No . 21 Q. Okay. In thin particular literature about 2 2 specifying transformers, the reference i. s made to 2 3 normal q oo d housekeeping. What ia "normal good 2 4 housekeeping" as that term Is used in a document 2ft like this? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019355 tt n I A. I would say "normal good houaoltfiap inq" 2 means that if there 5 g a spill, in accordance with 3 good housekeeping -- and it says in this 4 literature put. sawdust down, soak it. up in 5 sawdust; or vaqa or what have you. 6 What I'm saying is don't a p i. 11 it. 7 around. And if it gets on your clothes, it 8 encompasses this. Reasonable care and cleanliness. 9 Change your clothes if it spills onto you, y** 1 0 {). Change your clothes i.mmediately, would that l l be what you'd think "good housekeeping" would be? 12 A. That's what. I would - -- what I would say. 13 yes . 1 4 Q. Well - IK A. Don't continue to wear that clothing. It 16 doesn't mean you have to jump up, you know, and (jot 1 7 all excited. But it does say if it spills on your 18 clothes, change it. 19 Q. Okay. Now, you're not. saying this 20 particular document we've -just been looking at, 21 "When Specifying Transformers Here's How t.o Get More 2 2 Performance And Save Money," talks about changing 2 3 clothes or anything like that.? 2 4 A. )! don't know. 2 5 Q. Weil, do you want to take a look at it? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019356 /66 1 A . I don't know. 2 Q. T don't think it. says anything like that, in .3 there, 4 THK VIDKOGRAPHRR: Excuse me. 1 need 5 to go off: the record. 6 MR. CRAWFORD: Do you want, to take a 7 break for lunch? I1' a 1 2. : 0 0 - - a THE VIDKOGRAPHKR r The time, i a 11:57 9 a.a. i o (Noon Recess) 11 THE VIDKOGRAPHKR: We are now back on ] 2 the record. The time is 1:0.3 p.m. 13 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Mr. Henignus, let me hand 1 4 you again a document we were looking at. before the IS break. Document 2411 through 2.4 25 , Document O/FF-14 16 in Monsanto's nomenclature, entitled "When 17 Specifying Transformers, Hero's How to Get More IB Performance and Save Money," and ask you whether 19 that document, anywhere in it, indicates that if. a 2 0 person gets PCH-cont.ain.ing Askeral fluid on them 21 they should change their clothing immediately. 2 2 A . 1 don't think it. docs. I paged through 2.3 it. I don't find that. 2.4 Q. Now, did you have unything to do with the 2 5 writing of the language in this document that you're NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019357 26 7 I looking at? 2 A. Our advert i s i ncj writer wrote this. .3 Q. You didn't riiv low it for accuracy or 4 any thinq else? li A. Weil, it'8 a very light document. There's 6 no technology in this thing at all. So, I may not 7 have been involved in it. I know what, he was doing 8 was sending out a leaflet to try and got the name 9 Askeral and show a picture of an Askeral l I) transformer, call that to the attention of people 1 1 who do use transformers. That was the purpose of 12 i t . 1.3 It's not. a technical thing. It's no t 4 technology in Lt. There's no toxicology, 1 5 dermat.ology, or medical. It's just, a very nebulous 16 kind of a thing to, hopefully, enhance the 1 7 popularity of Askeral. At. least, people would have 18 heard the name. 19 Q. Are you telling me t.he document is not 20 necessarily accurate? 2 1 A. No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying it'3 2 2 not a heavyweight document and It doesn't get 2 3 into -- other than comments, general comments, a b o u t. 2 4 Askar els. There are many ex am pin 3 of over over 2 0 30 years of trouble free operation, makes statements NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019358 2.6 8 I Like that. t would a g roe with. E t says Aaknral 2 fluids are fire resistant. 3 MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Renlgnus, if you'll 4 try to just answer his question, we'll move along a 5 little ('aster if you do that. I think he'd 6 appreciate that; and we would, too. 7 A . What was it? 0 Q (By Mr. I.acey) Let -- let me ask you to 9 take a look now at the Document 2.332 through 2346 1 0 and ask if that's another copy of this same document l l called "When Specifying Transformers, Hero's How" -] 2 A . Yes . 1 3 Q. -- "To Get More Performance And Save 14 Money"? 1 5 A . Yes, it is. 16 Q. Okay. Now, Let me show you some more 17 documents. Let me show you Document 2426 through l 8 24.37 , also entitled "Here's How to Get More 19 Performance and Have Money When Specifying 20 Trans formers," a similar title to the preceding one, 2 1 and ask you to take a look at. that, briefly. 2 2 A . [ ' vh looked at it. 2 3 Q. Now, t. h a t. document, has on it. at. the front. 2 4 an indication that it was a now document created in 2 5 August of J 9 6 7 ; is that, correct.? NELL MCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019359 269 I A. L would think that that'a about correct. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A . I don't know where t hat, cornea from, but. T 4 would agree. f. Q. That, handwriting was on the document when 6 it came to mo Prom Monsanto. E don't know who wrote 7 t. h a t there, but that, is what's written on t. h a t a document. 9 A. I would agree with that. 3 would -- 1 0 Q. And it' you turn to the inside page of the 11 document., it talks about - - T think you need to l 2 maybe turn one more page. 1 3 A. Okay . 14 Q. Or maybe that's the page. No, turn one l 5 more page. 1 ft A. (Witness complies) t 7 Q. It talks about. Asker a L transformers having i a been used for 37 years? 19 A. Ya, I noticed this, looking at it; but you 20 look further back, you get. back to 30 years. This 2 1 is a little bit loose. 2 2 Q. Well, w h a t I was going t. o look at, I mean, 2 3 if this document, in fact, was new In 1967, would 37 24 years be correct.; that is, from 1930 to 1967? 2`i A. Well, that would be 37 years. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019360 270 I Q . Okay. 2 A . Rut. whether that, is accurate, 1 don't, 3 know. You run into the statement back hero, .3 0 4 years of trouble free service. 5 Q . Right. 6 A. I'd hate to say there was seven year's of 7 troubled service. 8 Q. T understand. Look back at the back of the 9 document. Do you find a code number on -- anywhere ] 0 at the back that helps you tell when it was l L produced? ) 2 A. The thing I could decipher here is *67, if 13 tha t is it. 1 4 Q. Yeah. That, would be consistent, with t.he t 5 note o n the front? 16 A. It would, and consistent, with these other l 7 things. t know when this thing was put out. 1 8 Q. Now, who was responsible for putting out. L 9 that document? 2 0 A . The same writer. And it's t. h e 3 a m e tenor 21 oC thinga . 2 2 Q . And was it. intended for the sane market., 2 3 poop in who 2 4 A. Yea , same purpose. 2 5 Q. To encourage people to use Askeral NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019361 z/ 1 I transformers? 2 A. To cal] Ask era la to their at tent, ion; and, 3 hopefully, that it would leave a favorable 4 impress!on, yea. f> 0 . Then the whole point, ia to get. them to 6 specify Aakeral transformers? 7 A . Yes . 8 Q So that there wilJ be more sold and more 9 demand Cor Monsanto's L1 C B Astcerals? 1 0 A . That's what we said before, right. l L Q Okay. Now, this document also talks about 1 2 A a k e r a ) trans formera and handling them, does it not. 13 where it saya , "Let's get all the facts on the ] 4 table?" Can you find that, section of the - 1 5 A . What page - - oh, what page is it? 1 6 Q. It. appears to be on Page fi. But I'm not. l 7 sure If I've (^ot an exact duplicate of. yours or not. i a b u t t. h e page on the document, seems t.o be Page f> . i 9 A . And --- and what was your question, again? 20 Q. There's a section called, ''Let's get. all 2 l the facts on the table." 2 2 A . Oh, yeah, I - - I have it.. 2 3 Q. And there it indicates that Asker.il fluids 2 4 have been manufactured handled and used safely for 2 S 3 7 yearn,* is that correct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019362 2 /2 I A. Yes, that's what that says. 2 Q. And, aqain, that would be consistent, with .3 the period from 19.30 to 1967 , correct? 4 A . Right.. f. Q. And when you hear a phrase like "They've 6 been manufactured, handled, and used safely for 37 7 yearn," t. hat would imply people haven't gotten 8 injured as a result of them, correct? 9 A. That, is the implication, yes. l 0 Q. And then there's this discussion again 1 1 about standard normal good housekeeping practices, l 2 <: o i* r e c t ? 1 3 A . Right. 1 4 Q. The same sort, of standard good housekeeping l 8 practices that you would use with other industrial 1 6 materials, right? I. 7 A. Yes, that's what it say3. 18 Q. Doesn't, indicate any any precautions are 19 needed with PCfl's other than what you would use with 20 other industrial materials, correct? 2 1 A. That's what it says. 22 q. Okay. Now, let me hand you another 7 3 document with the same title, "Here's How to Get 2 4 More Performance and Save Money When Specifying 2 5 T r a n s C o r it o c s " -- this is Document 2438 through NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019363 L 2 4 4 9 - - dnd ask L ff this is the same document, only 2 an updated version, that, according to the code, 3 would have been produced in June of 1971. 4 MS. 0 LKSK N : What were those pages 5 again? I'm sorry. 6 MR. CRAWFORD: What's the beginning 7 page there, Mr. Henignus? 8 THK WTTNRSS: This? 9 MR. CRAWFORD: Yeah, right here? 1 0 2438. l l MS. Q LF.S RN i Okay. 1?. A. Weil, here you come into this nuaber we 1.3 don't know of 71. I'm a bit confused by this, say, 14 19 7 1 . IS Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Let me show you right L6 hero -- I believe there's a code number right here, 1 7 which i ri d i c a t. e s -- 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. -- 06-7 1 20 A . -6 . 21 Q. Yes. That would indicate June of '7], 2 2 wouldn't it? 2 3 A. I cannot say this. I'm confused with that. 24 one. 2. S Q. Okay . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019364 7. / 4 1 A . I don't know i. f. that's - - that strange '71 2 we've been runninq into on all of these thinqs or 3 whether maybe the ynar here is '66, which is 4 correlates with the time these - which is in 5 correlation with t he time that these thinqs w o r e put 6 out . 7 Q. Okay. Well, let me show yon something else 8 on that same page. We have a list of the district 9 sales offices for all divisions, do we not? 10 /I . Yea . 1 1 Q. And down at the bottom of the section that l 2 has that list there's the notation 4/71, isn't 1 3 there? 1 4 A . 1 see this, correct. 1 5 Q . And that indicates that that list of 16 district, sales offices is as they existed in April I. 7 oe 1971, is it not? 1 0 A . I would say so. 19 Q. So, we know that the document is after 20 April of 71, then? 21 A . That is what it - I would have to agree 2 2 w L t h that 2.3 Q. Okay . 24 A. -- based on the numbers. And I do not 2 S disagree with that. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019365 27 ^ I Q- Yoah. And, no, i t. would rerU in ly not bo 2 illogical, then, that it could have been published 3 in 6-71, aa the code would indicate, two months 4 after they prepared the list of district offices? 5 A. Excuse me? 6 Q. The code number, the long code number, not 7 the district office number, but the long code number 8 at the bottom of that, same page is 06 - - names the 9 numbers 06-71, does it not? 1 0 A. I think so, yen, I. I Q And that could be indicative of June of 71, 1 ? wouldn't it? 13 A . Oh, yes . 1 4 Q . And it wo vi Id make sense that this could l 5 have been published in June of '71, after the 1 6 district, sales office list was prepared .in April of L 7 '71? 18 A. Yes . 19 Q. Or sometime thereafter? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. 2 2 A . It. m u a t. have been a revision of earlier. 2 3 Q. Exactly, a revision of the document we 2 4 first, saw that, was prepared in August, of '67, 2 8 c orroct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019366 2 /6 t A . YO8 . 2 Q. Okay3 A. And this is a revision of that in 'VI. 4 Q. Let me show you a Document No. 226`> through 5 2 2 6 6 and ask if you can identify t. h a t document.. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Who prepared t.hat document? 8 A. The same person. 9 Q. Okay. Somebody in this advertising group? L 0 A. Yes, an advertising writer. 1 1 Q. Ho you know when that document was t 2 pro pa red? 13 A. It's - - pardon? l 4 Q. Do you know when that document was IS prepared? 16 A. I would say this one was prepared in the t 7 approximate tino period of mid '66, as are these, ia other than what you've shown here, come up with a 19 revision of one that was prepared. So, I put that 2 0 into the time frame. Whether it's a revision or 2 1 not, this, I don't know. L don't see the -- the 22 date of issue. 2 3 MR. CRAWFORD! David, let me iust .... 2 4 can I a3k just a few questions to get this straight, 2 S because I'm not. sure that what's gone on here has NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019367 2l/ I been dead accurate. 2 MR . LACKY : Well .1 MR. CRAWFORD! I don't see any 4 difference between 24 26, that, series, and 2438 Tj ex c opt that there is attached to it a list of 6 diatri ct. offices. So, to say t. his is - - 7 MR. LACRY: It may well be another n reprinting, Walter. 9 MR. CRAWFORDi Okay. 1 0 MR. LACRY i That's what we've seen, 1l here are various repri. n tings - 1 2 MR. CRAWFORD: Right. But you said 1 3 "revision." 14 MR. LACKY: - with no changes. 1 5 MR. CRAWFORDi It's really not a ] 6 revision. It's the same - - actually t.he same l 7 document exactly. The only difference is it's got 18 the offices attached to it. 19 MR. LACRY: Weil, which is a 2 0 difference between the two documents. 21 MR. CRAWFORDi The only difference, 2 2 nut. the document could be the same, just with the 2 3 offices attached on. 2 4 MR. LACKY i No problem with that. 2 5 MR. CRAWFORDi And the offices could NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019368 2 7 rt I ha v boon whal: would bo revised In ' 7 L . So, it 2 could be the same thing. 3 MR. L A 0 RY ! Rut reprinted in '71. 4 THK WITNKSS: Reprinted. The word 5 " r o v i. a o d " - 6 MR. CHAWKORDi Well, not. even 7 reprinted, but maybe sent out. And -- well, at 8 least, we know the addition of the offices was 9 apparently '71, 1 0 MR. I.ACRY: Kxact.ly. 1 1 MR. CRAWFORD: That's all we can 1 2 really say. 13 MR. I.ACRY : That's fine. And 1 4 that's -1 i THK WITNESS: Well, that's an 16 interesting point, too. Isn't it? 1 7 MR. LACEY: Yeah. That would be 18 fine. 19 Q. (By Mr. L acey) Tha t. would mean that 2 0 Monsanto, in 1971, is giving out tho very same 21 information it gave out. when tho document, was fi r s t. 2 2 printed in '67? 2 3 A . Yes. One would have to -24 Q. And certainly if there were a change in the 2 b information that. Monsanto knew between 196 7 and NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. HARTOLDMONO019369 I 1971, it would fort approprUtft to modify the 2 d o cru aents to .incorporate new information before it. 3 was sent out, wouldn't it? 4 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, if you know it 5 waa sent out in *71, Mr. Hen ujnus, j ua t concentrate 6 on what you know. 7 A. Well, 1 don't know. All I - ~ I'm trying to 8 follow along here. I told you. I'm somewhat 9 confused with that one. 10 Q. (Ry Mr. ha coy) Well, you-a IV didn't 1J prepare these books to have them ait on the shelf, 12 did you? 13 A . J didn't., no . 14 Q. They were prepared to be given to people 1 r who would be specifying transformers? 16 A. Yes . 17 Q. And, no, if you add a list, of district, 19 sales offices to a document and print it, you're 19 preparing to have it. sent, out., correct? 2 0 MR. CRAWFORD 3 If that's. In fact, 21 what happened. 2 2 A. If that is what happened, yes. 23 Q. (Ry Mr. f.acey) Well, let me let me just 2 4 make sure what -- 2 3 A. This here ~- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019370 Atiii I MR. CRAWFORD : Those di'fi exactly the 2 a a e here, apparent. J y , 3 A. You see., what's being 3 a Id, that t h i. 3 4 literature is exactly the same - ~ you know, somebody 5 could have punched thin addition onto this thing. 6 I.et. me say t his - - I'm pretty sure I'm 7 correct oE this TM- these folders that these are -- a see, this didn't, go out in this form. They went. out. 9 in a folder. Those folders did not have added to J 0 the# this. 11 Q. (Fly Mr. Lacey) So, you're telling me when 12 M0 n s a n 10 gave me that document as an entire 1 3 document. - L 4 A . think that's a 1! Q . - - they made a mistake? 16 A . think this is an aberration. 17 Q. Okay. 1 R A. 1 really do. This is why I am telling you 19 I am confused with it. think this is an 2 0 aberration because 3 know that, this that, came out 2 l did not have thl3 with It. 2 2 MR LACEY : Walter -2 3 A . So, how this got on there, I do not know. 24 MR I.ACEY: Let. me make it clear on 2 5 the record) We've (jot a problem wit lx documents with NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019371 28 1 1 this witness saying that's not the way the documents 2 came, and what y o u- a]1 presented to me was that 3 right there as a document of Monsanto. 4 MR. CRAWFORD: David, I don't know 5 what the situation .... whether that was attached to 6 it or not.. I mean, Mr. Henignus would - 7 MR. LACKY: Mr. Bunignus is 30(b)(6) 8 corporate representative on the advcrtisinq of 9 Monsanto on dielectrics. 10 Q. (By Mr. l.acey) And that's advertising on l L dielectrics, is it not, Mr. Henignus? 1 2 A. In that category, yes. 13 Q . And you've here as a designated 1 4 reprenentative of the company today telling me that l 5 that document isn't really a copy of: the way the 16 Monsanto documents were in their file, correct? L 7 A. I - this Is my opinion of this thing. 1 0 Q. Okay. And you're the designated 19 representative of the company and saying that? 20 A. I am saying that. 2 1 Q, Okay. And T can rely on what you're 2 2 saying? 2 3 A. You can. 2 4 MR. CRAWFORD: Let me - 2 5 A. l don't know how this -- I cannot account NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019372 t82 I l;or t h i 3 , 2 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Okay. It. doesn't, make 3 sense; It shouJ.dn'l; bo that way. La that correct? 4 A. It doesn't make sense to me. You don't 5 find this on any of! the other - 6 Now, I t h A n k there's something An 7 addition to this. Lot *3 look it there, whatever. J. 8 don't know. 9 Q. Those are the only two documents of that 10 particular type they've given us, and one has it and 1 J one doesn't. 1 2. A. Weil, this was in the time frame. 13 Q. Now, when you're talking about "this," 14 you're talking about the Document 2 0 - - let me look 15 here - - 2265, 2 2 66. 1 6 A. Uh-huh. 1 7 Q. And that, was -- - that was - - when you say 18 "in the time frame," you're talking about in tho inid 1 9 1960 'a? 20 A. Mid 196 0 ' a . 2 1 Q. Okay. 2 2 A. That's where 1 would put. this thing. And 21 thore is there 1967. 2 4 1 stand confused by this. 2 5 Q. And the contusion arises from the fact that NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019373 28 3 1 the document that Monsanto has produced us in thi.3 2 case that's numbered 24 38 through 24 4 9 doesn't, j ook 3 in its entirety like the documents you reea 11 4 Monsanto having? ?> A. It. -- I recall in my opinion. I could 6 be wrong. T don't know. 7 Q. Okay. Well, you're the representative of 8 the company; so, we're going to have to rely on what 9 you say about, it. 1 0 A . So, T can't be wrong, huh? 1 I Q. That's ~~ that'a about what it amounts to. 12 They're representing that you're the person who 13 knows. 14 A. Well IS MR. CRAWFORD: I think he's a person 16 with knowledge about this. I don't know - 1 7 MR. LACEY: Well, let me make it very 18 clear. I asked for the company to designate the 19 person with the greatest, knowledge so I wouldn't 20 have somebody coming in and saying - - 21 MR. CRAWFORD: Well -2 2 MR. LACEY: -- "Oh, he didn't know 2 3 what he was talking about.. " 24 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, he is a person 2*> with knowledge. Arid whatever - - NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. HARTOLDMONO019374 ;84 I A . That i. s my host judgment. 2 Q. (Hy Mr. Lacey) Okay . .3 A . If I ' m wrong, L stand being corrected 4 and - - Q. Let show you another document, now, 6 called "The Care and Grooming of Askoral Transformer 7 Fluid," Document 2 S> 0 6 through 2 f> 2 1 and - - 8 A . Right. 9 Q . can you tell me about that? 10 A. Arid I will Look for what do you think? 1 1 I do not. find what they have there. I L 2 do find this. 1 3 Q . Which is what? l 4 A. Weil, this, now -or these district 1 5 offices. This in a list, of district offices. 16 Now, let me took at thi3 other one. 1 7 That, too, is a list of district, offices. 18 However, this gives the street 19 address, et cetera. That one does not.. Now, here I 20 find the same -- oh, that's that one. 21 Does that, have that same number- on 2 2 it? 23 1 don't, know. I'm looking. 24 q. ft has a code number on it down there at 2 b the bot.t. on. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019375 i rt b I A . " Ti i t h o in f J . S . 2 9 V l - 0 !5 6 2 - 1 0 . " I'm sorry. 2 I~ 3 Q. What can you tell me about that document? 4 Did you have anything to do with the preparation of; F> t. h a t document. ? 6 A. It's the same man that. - - that prepared 7 those. H Q. Who was that man who prepared t.hese 9 documents? 1 0 A . H i 1 1 Grosse. l 1 Q Rill? 1 3 A . Grosse, G K O Si S R . 13 0.. And how was he employed with Monsanto? 1 4 A . He was the advertising - - in charge of - L 5 he was the advertising director. I guess you'd caLl 16 him. Rill Grosse, t.he advertising director. 17 Q. Mow, was ho the advertising director for i a PCH's or for - 19 A. Everythi ng . 20 Q. Everything . 21 A . In the --- in the organic division. 2 2 Q. Where would he get. the information to go 2 3 into those booklets? 2 4 A . Me would get that, information from 2 'i excerpts. Color, clarity, and so forth, from the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019376 2H6 I spoc if i(M tiona , for instance, C t ' s - - it's c a i 1 e d 2 colorless, and it.'3 clear. 3 And then the black color and small 4 carbon particles, that indicates arcing. He would S have gotten that -- could have gotten that out of 6 that maintenance guide t.hat we looked at. earlier. 7 Dielectric strength Is --- these are B subjects out. of that maintenance guide. 9 Q. Well, would ho come and talk to a person 1 0 like you to get information to go in there and make l i sura It was accurate? 12 A . Yea , I would say so, that -- that he would l 3 this on the - - on the technical information. 1 4 Q . Do you - 1 f A . It's c ertainly in line with what, we had in l 6 the maintenance guide. 1 7 Q. Do you recall whether Mr. Grosse did 18 consult with you about the information In that 19 particular piece of literature? 20 A. I don't recall It, specifically. This was 21 a long time ago. Hut l would assume that, ho did 2 2 b e c a (i a o he is printing here, publishing, data that 2 3 1 ooka like the data that. - - that 1 had accumulated. 2 4 Q. Thoro's a lot of technical information, ?t. isn't, there ? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019377 2H / 1 A. Thoro'9 technical Information. This is 2 what I'm getting at.. 3 Q. And Mr. Grouse wouldn't know all that 4 technical information without, the assistance of you, 5 would ho? 6 A. That in correct. 7 Q. May E see that just a minute? 8 A. Kit. her t. h e assistance of me and discussion 9 and/or extraction from our literature. 1 0 Q. This little character that we see on the l 1 front of the book -- can you kind o E hold that up so 1 2 the camera can take a look at that? 11 A. (Witness complies) 1 4 Q. That little character there, was that one 15 of Mr. Grosso's inventions? J 6 A. Yes, it was. 17 Q. Okay, And was that supposed to that 10 character was supposed to represent PCB's? 19 A . NO . 2 0 Q. What did that 21 A. That is supposed to draw attention which I 2 2 be1ieve you think it does do, do you? 2 2 Q E don't know. You'll have to tell me . 24 Does i t. draw attention? 2 5 A . E think It speaks for itself. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019378 28 8 I Q. Okay. So, that was Mr, Grosae ' g -- 2 A. That's Mr. Grouse. 3 Q. Okay. Now, in this book on "The Caro and 4 Grooming of AnkeraJ Transformer Fluid," there is a b section that talks about personal care and indie.it03 6 that transformer Aukeral has been made and handled 7 and used for over 30 years without causing toxic or B other ill effects. Where would Mr. Grosse have 9 gotten the information like that? 1 0 A. He would have gotten that out of, probably, 1 l our maintenance guide. 1 2 Q. Okay . 13 A . That's my guess < 1 4 Q. I.et. me look at t h i s section with you IS brief l y, if I could. in the second sentence. where 16 he talks about persona] care. he says that, " A s k era 1 1 7 can bo handled in the same manner as insulating 1 B mineral oil." 19 A. Oh, I can show you where this conies from. 20 Q. Where does that come from? 21 A. That comes from outside of Monsanto. This 2 2 comes from the transformer industry. And you will 2B see this same wording here in literature published 2 4 ox-fJ.S. in the -- - some of those technical 2 5 organizations' p u b1icat ions. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019379 I Q. Okay. Now, horn ia - 2 A. That, is, in my opinion, where that, came 3 fro*. And thd t 1 9 where this was -- some of this was 4 extracted from. S Q. But this particular document is a Monsanto 6 publication, is it not? 7 A. Yes. a Q. And it's designed to go to various 9 customers of Monsanto? 1 0 A. Yes. 1) Q. And, in fact, it's designed to encourage l 2 the use of Askeral transformers, is it not? 1 3 A . Right.. 1 4 Q. And one of the things t. hat's said t. o l 5 encourage the use of Askeral transformers is that, 16 "AakcraJ can be handled in the same manner as l 7 insulating mineral oil," correct? 18 A . Correct.. 1 9 Q. And it indicates that, with regard to skin 20 contact, prolonged skin contact should be avoided 21 because there may be ari allergic reaction to 22 Askeral, just like there can be with mineral oil, 2 3 correct? 2 4 A. Where does it say "like there can be 2 5 with" -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. HARTOLDMONO019380 1 Q. "As with minora l oil" 2 A. Oh, yss. Yes. 3 Q . -- "them may bo some p o o p l e allerijic to 4 A s k e r el 1 . So, prolonged skin contact should be 5 avoided whore possible," 6 A . That' a what. it. says, right.. 7 Q. And I guess i it's not possible to avo id B pro.1 onged skin c. o n t a c t., as long as you're not 9 allergic. you don't have to worry about it. la It 10 what, he'a saying? 11 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, does it say 12 that? 1 3 THR WITNESS: It doesn't say that. t 4 Q, (By Mr. Lacey) Well .... 1 5 A. It doesn't, say that.. That's - - that's an 16 assumption, 1 suppose. Ho doesn't say that. 17 Q. Or does it. indicate or clearly imply that, 10 hhore are situations where prolonged contact with 19 Aakeral cannot be avoided? 20 A. Well, I don't read this. 2 1 Q. Well, it. says, "should be avoided where 2 2 possible." Does that indicate there are situations 2 3 where it's not. possible to avoid prolonged skin 24 c o n t a c t ? 2 0 A . 1 can't think of any. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019381 ^^ i L Q . E sne, 0 ka y 2 A . I cannot think of any. 3 Q. All right. Now, with regard to this typo 4 of information hero, would Hr. Grouse have reviewed 5 these statements regarding what one should do in 6 contacting Askera 1 , with the medical department of 7 Hons a nto? 0 A. I would say it should have been, or was. 9 Q. Rithor was or should have been? 10 A. Wither was or- should have been. 1 l Q . Okay. 1 2 A. Hut. I also am sayings Some of this l 3 writing, some of this exact writing, comes from 1 4 literature outside of Monsanto. I'm not disagreeing l 5 with this. I'm telling you the source. 1 6 Q. Do you agree with it? l 7 A. E agree -- well, E'd like to road i. t over ia again before getting pinned. 19 Q . Sure . Foe l f: roe . 20 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, what section are 2 1 you asking about? E moan 22 MR. I.ACKY : The: discussion. 2 3 TDK WETNESS: Ordinary personal care. 2 4 MR. CRAWFORD: Oh, okay. 2 5 A. To my knowledge, that first sentence is -- - NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019382 29 2 1 to iny knowledge, C agree with it. I have to agree 2 with it. 1 don't know of anything contrary. 3 Q. (By Mr. (ar.ey) The second sentence? 4 A . I would, more or less, agree with the 5 second sentence. 6 Q . When you say "more or 1 es tt, " what par t. 7 would you not want to agree with wholeheartedly? 8 A. I would not myself -- "as with mineral 9 oil." We didn't have mineral oil. I'm not in a 10 position t.o say "as with." 11 Q. So, you've not comfortable - 1 2 A. Ho, this is from ox -UHA. I would a a y, ms 13 far as I am concerned, this kind of - - o statement 1 4 should be run by our medical people -15 Q. E understand. 1.6 A. for their assessment of this and not. 17 through me. 1 8 Q. Okay. Rut my question right, now is whether 19 you agree with the statement as a factual statement 20 that Askeral can be handled in the same manner as 21 insulating mineral oil? 2 2 MR. CRAWFORD: If you know. 2 3 A. CM I - if I know. Now, as E ' 10 telling 2 4 you, I think 1 know where thin statement c.ame from; 2 5 and I think we'ii run into this later on --- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019383 29 i t Q. That's rod I ly not my question, though, 2 Mr. Benignus. 3 . My simple question to you is whether 4 or not you agree with that statement: Yes or no? J. A. I don't, know "the exact same manner as 6 insulating mineral oil," because 1 don't handle -~ 7 Q . Okay. a A. - - mineral oil. 9 Q. Okay. And - 1 o A. I don't want to make an assumption on this 11 thing. 1 2 () . Okay. Now -- 13 A. You know what t have to say on this 1 4 s u b } e c t.. i r> Q. Well, I'm t.ry.inq to find out what you have 16 to say on the subject. That's -- - that's what I'm 1 7 trying to find out. 18 And what 1 hear you saying iss You 19 would not make the statement that you can handLe 2 0 PCB * 8 just like mineral oil because, you don't, know 21 anything about mineral oil. 2 2 A. I can't, say I don't know anything about, 2.3 mineral oil, but t can say I'm not sufficiently 2 4 experienced or conversant, with mineral oil to really 2 5 make this statement. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019384 2 1 Q. Okay. Now, did 2 A. I would say this requires -- should have - 3 the okay Croa our medical people. That's wh.it I am 4 saying. r, Q Okay. And, ao, if Mr. Grosse didn't have 6 the approval oL! the medical people to make that 7 statement, on behalf of Mo naan to, he should have? 8 A, if e s, I would 3ay so. 9 Q. Okay. What -- one last question. About 10 what date was this "Care and Grooming of Askeral 1 1 Transformer Fluid," Document 2506 -- 12 A. That fits in this time frame of the mid 1 3 J 960 ' a . 1 4 Q. Okay. Let. me show you another document 15 called "When You Want Fire Safety Reliability, ] 6 Minimum Maintenance Specify Askeral Type 17 Transformers," Document 2522 through 2531. 18 A. Okay . 19 Q. Have you seen that document before? 20 A. I have seen this before. That fits -- ties 21 in with these same things. 2 2 Q. I see the - - you might hold that up. We've 2 3 got. the same - 2 4 A . Pixie girl. 2 5 Q. - pixie girl. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019385 /.v ^ 1 I A . That's what t called It. 2 Q. Okay. IR that another one of Mr Grouse ' a 3 produc 11ona ? 4 A . It i a b Q . Okay. And it. was produced in t h e in i d r, 1960's, too? 7 A. Yea. It. ties in with the other pixie girl 8 Q, Okay. So, any tio wu see that, we know 9 we're looking for Mr. Grasse, or we're looking at t 0 Mr. Grosso's work? 1 3 A . Yea. 1 2 Q. Okay. What was Mr. Grosac'n background? 13 Was he a chemist or anything like that? 1 4 A. I don't know. I really don't know. lr> Q . Okay. 1 6 A. Could have been at one time. 17 Q. Lot me come over and look at a port.Urn - 18 A. He was a writer. 19 Q. Mas ho a pretty good writer? 2 0 A. He was a good writer, yes. 2 1 Q. Let mo look at a section of: this document 2 2 with you, on the Document No. 2532 page. And it's 2 3 entitled "An Hnd to Misconceptions." Do you see 2 4 that.? 2 5 A . Yes NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019386 I Q. And It indicated that there are some 2 engineers who have some misconceptions about. AskeraJ 3 fluid, doesn't It:? 4 A . This is the. idea here, yea. 5 Q - No w, a g a i n - 6 A . They don't, understand it .... 7 Q Yeah a A . --- and, therefore, have m i a c.onc ept. i on s 9 a. Yes . Now, this Is a document, again. 1 0 prepared by Monsanto and provided to customers to t l encourage thorn to use Askeral transformers, correct? 1 2 A . Yes . 1 3 Q. Now, one of the misconceptions -- it starts l 4 off by giving in bold type what the misconceptions 1 ft are, correct? 16 A. Yes. 1 7 Q . And the first, misconception it says it's 10 going to deal with i 3 the misconception that Askeral 19 fluids are poison ness; is that, correct? 20 K. That's what it says. 21 Q. And it then goes on to say that Askeral 2 2 fluids have been manufactured, hand Led, and used 2 3 over 30 yearn without encountering toxic or ill 2 4 effects? 2 li A. That's what we've been reading. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019387 29 / I Q . Okay. And that means that they're - this 2 docuaent in tell inq Monsanto oust.omera that, nobody 3 has gotten sick enough to go to the doctor as a 4 result of working with PCH1s, correct? 5 MR. CRAWFORD? Well, is that what it 6 nays? 7 THK WITNESS? Well, it doesn't say 8 that in those words, no. 9 o. (Ry Mr. Lacey) That 's what i t means to however. i s n ' t it? 1 1 A . Well , it doesn't say that. Hut -- 1 2 Q Well , let me ask you about that . Didn't 1 3 you tell me before t. he lunch break that when a 14 document says there are no toxic or i l L effects, it 1 S means no one has gotten sick enough from PCB's to 16 have to go to the doctor? 1 7 A . Did T say that? 18 Q. Yes, you told me that, didn't you, before 19 the lunch break? 20 A. I would say so, if that's what what 3 2l said. I don't recall exactly, but I'm not ~~ 2 2 Q. Well, isn't, that, right, when you say - 2 3 A. If somebody is sick from it, they should go 2 4 see t. h v. doctor. 2 8 Q. And if somebody got. sick from PCH'a, t. hat. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019388 / '> >( I would ba <i toxic or III effect, wouldn't it? 2 A . Yes . 3 o. Okay. So, what that's saying is people 4 haven't gotten sick from PCB's, correct? h A . That is what this is saying, yes. 6 Q. Okay. And that's said In order to overcome 7 this belief1 that Home people have that PCB'a or 8 Askeral fluids are poisonness, righ h? 9 A . This is correct. 1.0 Q . Okay. And it then goes on to indicate that 11. y o u c a n use Askeral fluids with the ordinary 12 personal precautions used with other inert 1 3 industrial materials, correct? 14 A . That's what It says. lf> Q What's an "inert, material"? 16 A . Not reactive. 17 Q Okay. The next misconception that. it. 18 indicates it's going to deal with is the 19 misconception that Askeral transformers can explode, 20 correct? 21 A . That's what. it. says. 22 Q. Now, can Aakeral transformers explode? 2 3 A . Yes. 24 Q. Okay. Ho, that, misconception wasn't, really 2 8 a misconception at all; that was correct, they could NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019389 299 I explodn right? 7 A . I ;} u a t told you they could - 3 Q. Okay . 4 A . -- explode as as a result of arc formed 5 ga 3 . 6 Q. Okay. So, i t. ' a not a m i a c o n c. e p t i o n that, 7 A a k o v a l trans forniors can explode, 13 It? 8 A . I'd have to read this. 9 Askeral transformers can explode. 1 0 Q Niyht . l l A . They can explode. 1 2 Q Okay . 1 3 A . So, whether- it la a misconception that --14 Q It's a little bit confusing, Isn't it? 18 A . Yeah, 3 agree with you. And he is a 16 writer. 1 7 Q. Okay. And, yet, he's at. ill writinq on 18 behalf of Monsanto for people who might bo using I'CH 19 products made by Monsanto? 7.0 A . At this point in t i in e . 71 Q. Yes . 2 2 A . Yes, h e was writing about that. 7 3 q. ns Mr. Crosse still with Monsanto; do you 7 4 know? 7 8 A . I don't, know. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019390 400 1 Q. How old a mo n wo a Mr. Grosso when you were 2 working with him? 3 A. I -- I connoh answer this. He was one of 4 those, to me, sort of: an ageless person. [> I'm sorry, 1 can't answer it. 6 Q. Well, did you think ho was about your age. 7 younger, o J d e r? 8 A . Ho was younger than I. 9 Q. Okay. Hut you don't know how much? t 0 A. No,Idon't. 1 1 Q. Pine. Now, let me show you another 12 document, 1489 through 149.3, and ask if: you have 1 3 seen that, document, before. l 4 A. t t may have boon in tho list of things we 1 i'i looked at. I have nothing to do with this. 16 Q. Okay, You've got nothing to do with that 1 7 at all? i a A. I have nothing to do with this. 19 Q. And you have no idea what time frame it 2 0 might Cit into; is that, correct? 21 A. Weil, I haven't looked at it. 2 2 Q. Well, okay. Go ahead and look at. it. J 2 3 mean, if you can heLp us identify its location in 24 time, I would appreciate that. help. 2 5 A. It says, "For the past ten years. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. HARTOLDMONO019391 30 ] I Monsanto ' g half: century of: experience has boon 2 called on again." 3 1 would think this is running into t. h e 4 1960's. Now, that'a a quick guess. b Q. That's based on information in the document 6 and your knowledge oC Monsanto? 7 A. Thia ia an estimation on my part. That's 8 the best I can do with this. I'm Looking tor 9 iioiet.hing that might tie something in. to I would say It nay be running up into 1 1 the mid bO's to '60, something like this. 1 2 Q. Okay. 13 A. Now, that is merely an estimate. 1 4 Q. Fine. That's more help and knowledge than lb we had before. 1 6 A. Wo LI -- 1 7 Q. I.et me show you another document, 1504 18 t hi'o ug h 1507 , and ask It you can tell us anything 19 about that document and, in particular. what. 2 0 period --21 A . DO you want this back? 2 2 Q. you can just lay that down there, if you 2 3 wish. 2 4 A . See , this is , again, functional fluids, 2 b Q . Am you able to help us at all with t he NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019392 n; I dating of that? 2 A . I ' 1 ] try . 3 We;]], here it. flays, "For 2 f years 4 Monsanto has supplied the dielectric." Well, 5 Monsanto acquired Swann in '35. Then that. 2.0 would 6 be - it. runs It up to what I've been talking about, 7 or about I960. That's about afl close aa 1 can get. 8 tor you. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. That, ia --- it's in the ballpark. Talks 1 l about things that would bn in that framework, as 1 2 best. T c a n i u d g e i t . 1.3 Q. All right. tint me show you another 1 4 document called "Absorptive Refining of A u k e r a 1 155 Fluids," 2 253 through 2 2.64, and ask you if you can 1 6 help us date this document.. l 7 A. r would be looking for something like J 8 1967. Can we find that? 19 MR. CRAWFORD! David, just so the 20 record is clear. Hi nee he didn't author these, he is 21 just giving you estimates - and l think that's 2 2 pretty clear - the best he can do. And -- a n d 2 3 there may bo other exactrlos he can give you based 24 on the fact, he didn't, author them. 2 5 A. No, I didn't author this. I'm making a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019393 30 3 1 gUH3 3 . 2 I would put this into the time /'fame 3 after 1965 and certainly prior to 1970. So, t'm 4 hitting the mid to latter 1 96 0 ' a ; and I'm pretty 5 sure I -- I feel comfortable with that. 6 Q . (By Mr. Lacey) Okay. 7 MR. CRAWFORD: As long as you fool 9 comfortable with it., Mr. Beni gnus; but just, don't, 9 guess on a document. If you feel comfortable - 10 THR WITNESSi All I can do is guess on 1 l these things. I 2 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, we don't -13 THR WITNESS: I'm doing the best I 1 4 can, and 3 don't think I'm misleading anybody. 13 MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. 1 6 THR WITNESS: I'm not trying to, 1 7 and I don't know. lfl Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Well, that - 19 A. k week is going to make no difference. A 2 0 month will make no .... I don't, know. 21 Does a year make much difference? 2 2 Don't, pin me down to the year. 2 3 Q. This document you were i us t looking at, 24 "The Absorptive Refining of Askeral Fluids," is a 2 5 piece of advertising literature for dielectric NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019394 .1 U 4 I PCa'3, correct? 2 A . Yen. Thai. t. v p e of thing, yen, correct. 3 Q . And you 1 ro the -- 4 A . And I 5 Q . - company rrpreaentati ve on that.? 6 A. Yes. And I'm a n 8 w or l n g your question. V And what, did 1 t. e 1 1 you if* the; time on 8 this? 9 o.. 19 6 5 to 19 7 0 ; is that, correct? 1 0 A . I put it In between there. I think it's 1 1 bef ore 1 9 7 0. Let. me think some more. 12 Q. Okay. ] 3 A . I would tend to pin that, on *-- now, see, l 4 he's got ting me down to the exact year. ] b Let me pick '68. 16 Now, are you satisfied? 17 Q. I really wasn't, dissatisfied at all with l 8 your answers. Mr. Crawtord Is the one who's - 19 who's apparently not happy with them. 2 0 MR . CRAWPORD; Well, no. T just want 21 to be sure you're - you're fairly comfortable with 2 2 t h e accuracy of that. That's all I'm saying. r t ' a 2 3 j u s t. -- 24 () . (Hy Mr. I.acey) All we can do today - 2 8 A. I'm a bit uncomfortable now that I'm down NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019395 3U` 1 to I96fl por s. 2 Q. Rut. you're comfortable between '6b and '7 0? 3 A. You bettor bel ieve it. 4 C> . All r i q h t. . All we're trying t. o do here is 5 get these documents dated. And it we can accomplish 6 that., why, we've accomplished something. 7 A. Recause otherwise you're going to have a a lot more work. 9 Q. That's right. And 3 don't know who to - X 0 who's going to help us do it. 11 A. hate this one t. he same way. X >. Q. Okay. Well, Let mis hand it to you ao we'll 13 know which one in "this one." l 4 We've (jot a document here called 1 E> "Inline Measurement of Klec.trical Properties" - 16 A . Right. 1 7 Q. "For Flowing Dielectrics," Document 18 O/FF-12, No. 1529 through 1536. 1 9 A. Yeah. 3 hope 3 find some sort, of a code to 20 this. Sa, this has the exact same lettering as that 21 other one. And 3'ut reading 1068. Here again, I 2 2 don't know does that mean 1968. Rut I would be 2 3 comfortable with this donimc'.nt. in the same time 2 4 frame a 3 X gave you for that other document. 2 b Q. Okay. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019396 j06 I A . And -- 30, mark It a c c o r d l n g l y . 2 Wher e .i n the ot her one? 3 Oh, that, yes, those two. One i g the 4 absorption equipment., and the other one is t. he way 5 you measure what that absorption equipment has 6 accomplished. So, the two go hand in hand. 7 Q. Okay. Let me show you another document 8 called "Toxicology and Safe Handling of Monsanto 9 Aerelor Chlorinated Diphenyl," Document 18731 1 0 through 1R737 , and ask if: you can give me a date on l 1 that document. 12 Have you ever seen that one before? 13 A. E T. recognlze things in here that we 1 4 printed before. Hut. whether 1 saw this, I'm trying 15 to - 16 Q. I've looked for - 17 A. E would -- I'd almost say "no." 1 8 Q . So, t. hat one may be after your retirement? 19 A. I would have to say "no." 20 Q. It's not after your retirement? 2 X A. I recognize things in there - 2 2 Q. Okay. 2 3 A. -- but C have not see n t h i s . 24 Q. So, you don't have any idea to help us out. 2 5 on that one? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019397 307 I A . [ cannot pin p o i n t that one. 2 Q. Okay. 3 Q. Can you te 1 ] me what. " PydrauJ " was? 4 A. " Pydrau l" was a trade name assigned to f) fluids for use w.it. h, say, things like met. a] die 6 casting machines. It's a hydraulic fluid. 7 " F y d ra u1 " is a hydraulic fluid. 8 Q. Did it contain PCH's? 9 A. Not all Pydraul contained PCB's. Some l 0 Pydraul may have contained PCB. 1 ] Q. And you really don't know for sure one way i?. or the other about which ones did and which ones 1 3 didn't? 14 A. No, I wouldn't. ~- I was not in that area. l s Q. Did - - when you were w or k i n g in the 1 6 inorganic area, did you have anything to do with the t 7 PC3'a that went into things like hydraulic fluids? 18 A. PCH was used at that point in time as a 19 hydraulic fluid; yes, it was. 2 0 Q. While you were in that area? 21 A. This i.3 right. 2 2 Q . Did you have anything to do with the. PCB's 2 3 used as hydraulic fluid while you were in the 2 4 inorganic area? 2 f> A . Not. t.o select - - not. to specify, hut mere 1 y NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. HARTOLDMONO019398 10B I to acknowledge that PC!R fluid wag go In use. That 2 wan the extent, of it.. 3 Q. When you say "acknowledge that, it wag ho in 4 use," you mean you could - f'i A . I knew of it. 6 Q. -- just toll uh that happened? 7 A. 1 knew of it. 8 Q. Okay. Did you ever do any work on 9 literature for the advert.iaing of the Pydraul 10 fluids? 1 1 A . No. 12 Q. Who in that, area was responsible for that? 13 A. Well, the product manager of that area 1 4 would have been George - 1 5 Do you want the job position? What -1 f. what, are you asking for? l 7 Q. Well, hopefully somebody you can tell us 1 8 about who might, be able to do for us with regard to 19 the hydraulic fluid materials what you've done for 20 us with regard to the dielectric --- dielectric 21 materials, help us identify documents and the dates 2 2 on which they were published. 2 3 A. Thi3, now, different than in my case. Here 2 4 you're talking t. o one in dividual, which simplifies 2 5 things. You're now g e 11 i. n g into an area where there NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019399 109 I wore aevfird L i. ml i v i. dua L 3 Involved, I ' in talking 2 about an organization. And perhaps this question 3 that you raised with me had better be asked more 4 specifically from someone in that, area rather- than 5 inyso it . 6 {). So, you can't even - 7 A. It you understand what I'm trying to tell 9 you. 9 Q. Yeah. I'm just trying to find out if you 10 can even identify somebody that was in that area who 1 1 might be able t.o help us out., or we're back to 12 looking at the phone book to try to find somebody to 1 3 t. a 1 k to. 1 4 A . 7 don't, know who t. o name. I - - I a in - - I l r> know people in that area. 1.6 Q. Can you tell me some of the people that 17 were In that area? 1 0 A. George Huchanan was the product manager. 19 Now, he's retired, George Huchanan. 2 0 Q. Do you know where Mr. Huchanan lives now? 21 A, yeah. 2 2 (2 . Where does he Jive? 21 A. He lives in -- see, now you're going to say 24 Paul Men i gnus gave you that. name. 2 5 MR. CRAWFORD: Go ahead. He's NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. HARTOLDMONO019400 3i o I on titled, to L t . 2 THE WITNESSs I think he is entitled 3 to this. 4 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, he is. 5 THE WITNESS: T. really do. 6 A . He live;a in Green Valley, Arizona. 7 THE WITNESS: Can you Leave your B fingers still a minute? 9 Q (By Mr. Lacey) She's got to keep her 10 f 3 nqers going. That's her obligation. l l You go ahead and toll us. It Isn't 12 going to hurt anything if her fingers are going. n MR. CRAWFORD: Well -- well, just 1 4 answer -- ;j u h t answer his question because we've got. 15 a lot of -16 A . You asked where does he live. Green 17 V alley. Arizona. 10 MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. That's good. 19 Q (By Mr. Lacey) Do you know whereabouts In 2 0 Green Valley? 2 1 A. (No response) 2 2 Q. I thought, maybe that's what you were going 2 3 to try to toll us, If you h a p pn ed to know. 2.4 A . oh, BXPiise me. You think Green Valley is a 2 5 r Ivor valley. There are no great rivors out there NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019401 31 1 I except the dry Colorado H i vnr. 2 Q. That's - that.' n the name of a town in 3 Arizona? 4 A . That's the name of a town. 5 Q Okay . fi A . Green Valley, Arizona. 7 0. . All right. 8 A . You can go from there. 9 Q . Okay. Can y on tell me what " Therminol" is? 10 A . Yes. Therminol relates to this same group l l that we ' re talking about , the Pydrauls ; the 1 2 Therm:l nolg; Sk ydraul , which isn't. PCB. And l 3 "Thiirminol" is a name, as it implies, heat, heat 1 4 transfer fluid. i r> Q. Who could help us date these documents that 16 we have that relate to Therminol? Would 1 7 Mr. Buchanan be the person there, too? 18 A. (Witness nods head) 19 Q, You need to answer verbally. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay . 1 2 2 A. He should be. 2 3 Q. All right. Now, what about - - we have some 2 4 documents hero that relate to coatings and 2ui plasticizers and things like that, NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019402 3 ) ?. 1 Who would bo a person who could he l p 2 us w i t li regard to those documents? 1 A. I have thought of I: h i a , th.it you would ask 4 this, also. 1 'v o hern trying to think. And if ] r> knew more specifically, r would tell you, believe 6 me . 7 Q. C e r t. a i n 1 y . 8 A . I j u 3 t don' t . 9 Q. That would n o t. be in Mr . Buchanan's area? 10 A . No, that wouId not have been at this time 3 1 n his area; this is correct. l 2 Q And you don ' t h a v (j a n y idea of who might 1 3 have been involved with that particular area? 14 A. really don't know who to nominate. J 5> Q. Okay. Let. me -- I'm trying to get through l 6 all of these various bulletins we've (jot and make 3 7 sure we've got everything covered here;. 10 A. Isn't it awful? 19 Q. There's a lot of them, aren't there? A 20 fair amount of 21 A . It's - - it's a 1 c> t. of - 2 2 Q. W o had a fair amount of: literature that 2 3 Monsanto provided to various exist outers dealing with 7.4 POR'3 . 2 b A. Yes, this is correct. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. HARTOLDMONO019403 1)3 1 Q . ['vi! (jot a o m (5 m o r o hnn; that - - let in e 2 see. I'm not. qnit.e mire how these' fit in. 3 Thorn's a documen t he r e c,il 1d t h (! 4 "Vroclor Polychlorinated Polyphftny1 a," Technical 5 Rul. lot in 0-FP/l, Document SCM 0 18626 through 18661. 6 l.et me ask you to take a look at that 7 and see IE you can provide me any information about a that, document. 9 A. Now, incident.ally, t.bin haa that, same 10 this thing, which we thought might be an attachment 11 earlier - l 2 Q. Right. 1 3 A . ...... and were somewhat, confused about, t 4 whether somebody taokad it on there. 1 h This, .1 would say .... here, this says, 16 "Pot* more information, additional literature, 17 Askeral Inspection and Maintenance Guide," which we 18 have already time framed between 1962, at the start 19 and -- I don't know when the last, revision was 20 ado. This 13 - would have to be put into the 21 framework of the 1960's. 2 2 Q. Okay. 2 3 A. That is - 2 4 Q. This has, T note, in it tables like we saw 2 6 before in that -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019404 31 4 I A . It d(1 o oa3 . 2 Q . - - P -1 1 fi and OF-] J 5 . 3 A. Yea. 4 Q. Would t hat have been a document wi l.h the 5 tables In It that you would have reviewed tor 6 accuracy before it wt'nt out? 7 A. Those tables? At aoma point in time 8 whether for this particular i s n u e, I do not. know. 9 Q . I sen. 1 0 A. See, every time a - one of these things l l issued, r wasn't sitting there waiting for It. 1 2 (). 1 understand. l 3 A . I would hope so. 1 4 Q. That would almost be a full-time job, to 15 sit there and wait for aLi these, wouldn't it? 1 6 A. It would. 1 7 Q. Let. me show you anothosr document which 18 appears to bo just another copy of that -- but I 1 9 want you to look and make sure - also labeled the 20 "Here lor Polychlorinated Polypheny Is," Technical 21 Pullet in O-FF/1, 132 through 1 l> 7 , and ask if that's 2 2, simply a copy of the other document you just looked 2 3 a l. . 2 A A. It appears to me to be exactly that. Now, 7.5 it has this number back here. Have you looked at NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019405 216 1 that number? 2 Q. Which number is that? 3 K. This number. 4 Q. Where it. naya "0466-6"? 5 A . Yeah. 6 Q. Let. me see the - 7 A. I think that's the same as that. 8 Q. Let. me see if that's the same number on the 9 other one. 1 0 MR. CRAWFORD: (Indicating) ll Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Does it have it seems to 1 2 be even t.he h a me little number there. 1.3 A. E think it's just another -- 1 4 Q . Another copy of the same one? 15 A . -- copy. 1 6 I think no. 17 Q. Let me show you another document, also 1 8 tabled the "Aerclor Polychlorinated Polyphenyla." 19 Here, instead ot.` giving the - - it's got the same 2 0 title; but i n s t: a d of giving a liflt of the series, 21 et cetera, it just says "Dielectric for Capacitors 2 2 and Trans f oners . " Then it. says Technical nulliten 23 0/PF/R, which would indicate it i3 a revision? 24 A. That's a revision of something. 2 5 Q. This is Document 158 through 179, and f NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019406 I would aak you If that appears to be a revision of 2 th two document. 3 we just previously discussed? 3 MR. CRAWFORD: Here. 4 A. 1 have, evidence here that, this would, no 5 doubt, put thia Into the time frame of this 11-71 6 t h a t. 1 see back here. 7 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Okay. H MR. CRAWFORD: Well, Mr. Benigmis, 9 you you're baning that strictly on this page that 1 0 has the district office -- sales office divisions; l l i.g that correct? 1 2 THK WITNESS: Well, no . No, it 1.3 i s n ' t. I ' m looking at this number. which I'm not 1 4 sure: 3 know what, it means. Hut. I'm looking at that. 15 number. b u t I'm 1 o o k i. n g at somothing else I saw. ] 6 MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. l 7 THE WITNESS: I'm only trying to date ] 8 this. 19 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) That's really what. I've 2 0 asked you to do. 2 1 And you would date it i n t.he '71 time 2 2 f rame? 2 3 A. Yes. Do you want to know why? '2 4 Q. `Jure. 2 b A. Of course, you would. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019407 117 1 Q. E ' vu been tryimj to -ask dll those questions 2 today. 3 A . Let me redd. It. mentions Bill Pappdqeorqe, 4 his address, 800 North Lindburgh, St. Louis, S Missouri, Ar ea Code - - 1 mean ZIP Code 63116. 6 okay. 7 Q . Ft o - 8 A . L'appdqeorqe arrived. 9 Q. Yes. Now, that is a revision of the l 0 previous document. Is it not? 1 1 A . Of this? 12 Q. Yes. 1 3 A . (No response) 14 Q . You ' ll note the number O-FF on there. Look 1 5 a t. the front. number. That appears to be a r e v i s ion 16 o e that prior document; is that correct? J 7 A . Bxcuse - excuse me? 18 Q. Yos . Let mo - I want to makti sure -19 A . Oh , I 8 e e what you're saying. 2 0 That'3 the way it Looks to me. 21 Q. And the reason this one just, talks about 2 2 dielectrics Cor capacitor's and transformers where 23 the prior- versions of the aame titled document, 24 talked about all these other uses Is because 2 S Monsanto has now stopped selling PCH'a for any use NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. HARTOLDMONO019408 3ia 1 except dielectric; isn't that correct? 2 A . Yea, air. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A , Correct. 5 Q . Now, let me have e;ac.h one of those back for a a moment, if could. 7 Did you have any involvement with 8 either of those documents, to your knowledge? 9 A. No, .1 did not. I've only been able to time LO frame them for you. 1 1 Q. Okay. Now, each one of these documents has l 2 in it a section on dermatology and toxicology and 1 3 safe handling. Is that something that would, again, l 4 go back to the* modical department Cor explanation? 1 it A. It. should. 1 6 Q. Okay. They would be the people to talk to l 7 about that? 18 A . Yes . 19 Q All right. 20 A . And you've got that. timed correctly. 21 Q. Okay. And we would 3 till be -2.2 A . Sure have. 2 3 Q. talking about Dr, Fimmet Kelly - -24 A . Yes. 2t> Q. .... a 3 l. h e person in the medical department? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019409 3 l9 I A . Yes. 2 Q. Was he there all the way up u n t. j J the time .1 that you retired? 4 A . Yea . 5 Q Okay. Ho, throughout - 6 A . Except during the war years, I happen to 7 know . a Q . What, was he doing during the war years? 9 A . Well, he'a a medical doctor. 1 0 Q In the service? 1l A . Yes . 1 2 Q Who was performing the functions an medical l 3 director for Monsanto during the World War El years? 1 4 A . 3 do not know. 2 do not. know. I can't l !5 answer that. 1 6 Q. Okay. Let me turn your attention to some l 7 other documents I think will be easier maybe to 1 fl understand; at least they are for me, and 2 hope 19 they will be for you. 2 0 X want to show you a document, called 2 t the "Reference Bulletin on Arocior Fluids Cor the 2 2 Transformer Industry," dated April 13th, 19S4, 2.3 Document 17 8.3 through 17 9.3. 24 Have you seen that document, before? 2`5 A. Yes, I 1vo seen that. I saw that last NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019410 .1 2 0 t night, Ute Last night. 2 Q. Who wrote that documcn t. ? 3 A. I did. This is dated 1904. 4 Q. Okay . And - and what, was the purpose - 5 A . C t ' s dated. 6 Q. Yes. What ' s the exact - 7 A . t ' 3 got my initial, and you're asking me? 8 Q Wha t. 's the exact date there on i t? 9 don't have a copy in front of mo. I 1 0 gave iiy copy to you, t l A . T h o exact ddto i. 3 4-13-04. 1 2 Q. That would be April 13th, 1904? 13 A. Correct, 14 Q. Now, what, was your purpose in writing that 10 document ? 16 A. This is an in-house, one might say, within 17 company, piece of information, brochure, that was 10 aimed at telling people in our sales department, that 19 there are those different materials that they may 2 0 hear. This is the essential part, of this thing. 21 And you'll, see here it identifies a whole list, of compounds. It's nice that, you have 2 3 this, isn't it? I. does that accurately and gives 2 4 their composition. 2 0 Q. This wag written as a reference book for NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019411 3 ?. 1 1 other Monsanto people, so to apeak? 2 A. 7en, ihat'a all it. is. 3 And It Lists tradu names by various 4 trariiiforer Manufacturers, what their given trade ') name is. Home of these are capacitor -- well, it 6 does say "capacitor" here. Others says 7 "transformer." Bo that the salesmen will have heard 8 of this, that he's not completely oblivious to 9 this. 1 0 it's not intended for anything !. I external. 1 2 Q. Hut it's information so he can answer 13 questions that do come from customers, correct? 1 4 A. 1 wouldn't. all right. If you want -- 1 IS don't know whether we expect this. 1 6 Q. Who asked you to write that? l 7 A. Who asked me to write this? 18 Q. yes . 19 A. in 1 9 f> 4 . This could have been a man in the 20 position that I referred to who was -- let's say the 21 project -- the product manager might, have auked 2 2 this, might have asked this. 2 3 q . no you know why you were selected to do it.? 24 A. I was about the most logical one to 2 5 identify these ~~ this whole list, of product names NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019412 3 ' '/ I that - - Pyranol - that's the G.F.. names. I 2 would -- I would be the logical place to go for .3 this. 4 Q. You had more knowledge about these sorts of 5 things-6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. than anybody else - H A. Yeah. 9 Q . -- In Monsanto? 1 0 A. Yeah. l l Q. tot me - 1 2 A. That would .... that would have been it. And l 3 E wrote Lt as an in-house thing. 1 4 Q. It explains the basic things about, how 15 transformers work and what they're used for, 16 correct? 17 A. I would suppose, yes. Just general IB information. This isn't training anybody. 19 Q. Well, would this be the sort of document 20 that a salesman might keep handy so if he has a 21 question come in over the phone, he could flip t.o It. 2 2 and be able to find the necessary information? 2 3 A . No, 1 don't, think so. No. Unless if he is 2 4 g e 11: L n g an inquiry from someone, like, for instance, 2 5 Ci . F. . Pyranol 1 499. And this in a name thi3 in NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. HARTOLDMON0019413 323 1 the trade name, common -- Ln common use at G.K. To 2 ua -- to him, it would be A roc: lor - 1240, was it? 3 book and see. 4 Q . Okay . be t. ' 3 nee. 5 A. I can't remember. Pyranol 1499? 6 Q. See if it lists 14. 7 A. rt would bo close to it. 0 Q . 1 2 4 2 , it flays hero. 9 A. Well, I was weighings Is Lt 124 2 or 1240? 1 0 Q. Says here it'a 1242. L l A. Yes, this Is correct. 1 2 See, even now, I can't remember that; l 1 and how could a salesman? That's its purpose. 1 4 Q. Okay. Now, t.his document described t.he lr> different types of transformers that could bn used, 16 did it not? it compared dry t.ransforiier* to 17 oil-filled to PCB-filled transformers? 1 B A. I don't, remember that it dot:a, but if you 19 say it's -- that's written in there. 20 Q. Let. me .... let me look at it with you for a 2 l minute. 22 A . All right. 2 3 Q. bo t mo just - 2 4 A . Well, this ifl the types of insulation. 2 5 Q Yeah. It -- and Lt (joes through to NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019414 321 I actuaLLy, In t h e process of disc usslncj things, t a l k 2 about the sales and application pact, tire for- PCH 3 transformers or A a kora 1 trails fornicrs - 4 A . 11 h - h u h . 5 Q . - - correct? 6 A . 11 h - h u h . 7 Q. And talks about the different n characteristics of how transf oruers are selected; 9 talks about dry-type units? l o A. Dry -- yes, where one would have an open 11 dry -- this shows a the different kinds of 1 2 t. r a n f o r in e r s , open dry. 1 3 Q. R it; lit. AnaLyzes the various 1 4 character i sties of transformers t. h a t could be used l 5 indoors? 16 A . 11 h - h u h . 1 7 Q. Makes comparisons between liquid and dry 18 transformers and all sorts of different 19 characteristics, correct V 2 0 A. Yes. 2 1 Q. Talks about even how much they - how much 2 2 noise they q i. ve off and how much they vibrato? 2 3 A. Yeah . 2 4 Q. Kxpluins the developments that are taking 2 8 place In dry transformers that may improve their NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019415 32` 1 diara<:teristi(!3, cor feet? 2 A. Well, you're reading I go along with 3 what you're saying on that. Yeah, Improvements in 4 continence and things 5 Q . Talks about, the development of thin (Mass H 6 insulation material? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q. And I guess what. I'm trying to figure out 9 here is whether the purpose of all of that was to 1 0 a 1 .1 o w a a a 1 e s m an - 1 1 A. No. Now that we've gone through this, no. l 2 Q. Well, let me finish my question. ] 3 A . All right.. 1 4 Q. I'm trying to find out whet, her the purpose 15 of this was to sufficiently educate Monsanto J 6 salesmen so that they would know what, the potential l 7 benefits of Askera l transformers are vis-a-vis i a competition like mineral-oil-filled transformers or 19 dry-type transformers? 20 A. No. No. 21 Q. Well, why does it give the salesman so much 2 2 information about the dry transformers - 2 3 A. R x c. u 3 e me. When 3 said "to the salesman," 2 4 1 was looking at. this list, of product names. 2 5 Now, that would be helpful to a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019416 .1 /.b I salflsnidn calling on one of: theae companies, say the 2 purchasing agent.. Whereas to the salesman it's 3 Aroclor 1242 and here he runs Into PyranoL 1499 that 4 he never heard of before, this correlates that. Now 5 that's what E Looked at. 6 That would be of interest. This is an 7 in-house thing. Above and beyond that, anything E a said is extraneous. 9 Q. Wei), why did you write all the rest of 10 this stuff about dry transformers and benefits, 11 vibration, noise, insulating materials, et cetera? l 2 A. Well, E knew about this and this was 13 extracted from the literature and so forth and 1 14 just put it together maybe -- 15 Q. Hut but for what purpose? 16 A. We weren't making transformers; we weren't 1 7 designing transformers; we were not selling 18 transformers. 19 Q. You did it. -just to be doing it? 20 A. That's about --- as I told you -- as I see 21 this, the most, significant, part, of that, is to list 22 the product nomenclature. That - - that is it. 2 3 Maybe you'll say I didn't have much 24 more to do. E don't know. 2 5 q . well, I --- 1 guess I'm just looking here. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. HARTOLDMON0019417 J* l 1 A . I'm passing along things that r knew and 2 had read about tranafoniera and passed it. into the 3 product; group. 4 We were selling dielectrics t. o people 5 who built designed and built transformers, and I 6 passed this -- it's a general information bulletin. 7 This is what it is, There's no specific goal, 8 purpose, and so forth. It is a matter of general 9 information. 1 0 Q. Okay . X X A. That'3 it, 1 2 Q. For salesmen? 1.1 A. No. Now that t'vo gone through this thing, 1 4 as I told you, for salesmen, I can see that this l IS product nomenclature could bo of interest. Hut that 16 is of interest, also, to the clerk who fills orders 1 7 that these namos can come in. It's of interest to 18 people in this product group. It's general 19 information. 20 Q. Well, the document, is approximately 11 21 pagns long. And the list of nomenclature, what the 2 2 G.E. name is versus t.he Monsanto name and so forth, 2 3 takes the -- a page and a half. 24 A . Right. 25 t>. What was the other nine and a half pages NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC, HARTOLDMON0019418 wo I for? 2 A . General information. 3 Q. For anybody's} benefit? 4 A. Por anybody. 5 Q. And who would it be within Honadn to who 6 would have one of these reference bulletins for 7 t h o i r benefit? a A. I would say the product manager and people 9 in -- in -- associated with him. That's its 1 0 purpose. u Q. And would that, include the salespeople, t 2 t o o, or not? ) 3 A . No. No. 1 4 Q. Okay. I,et me show you anotherdocument, l 5 titled "The Proper Handling of Aroclor and their 16 mix t. u res in the Electrical Industry," Document. 196 7 17 through 2051. 1 8 A. I'm very familiar with that.. 19 Q. Okay. How are you familiar with that? 2 0 A. Has my name on it. 2 1 Q. Okay. Did you write it? 2 2 A . I wrote it. 2 3 Q. And w h at date did you w r i t e it? 2 4 A. 12-1-54. 2 5 Q . December 1st, 1954? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019419 M9 I A . Correct:. 2 Q. You wrote that, in the name year that you :i wrote this reference bulletin on Ar color fluid:?, 4 right? 5 A . Okay. 6 (). Is that accurate? 7 A. Well, it says so, doesn't it? 8 Q. J believe 9 A. Yea. 1 0 Q . - it. doea. l 1. A. Yea. 1 2 Q. Now, what was the purpose of writing this l :l document on the proper handling of ArocLors and J. 4 their mixtures in the Klectrical Industry? l 5 A. The purpose of this was to inform our 16 customer!? of the specifications of all t. hese - - call 1 7 them "PCQ's." And you'll note in here all the test J 8 procedures, as used at - and document.ed at the 19 American Standards -- the ASTM. 20 So, it. gives all of that in - - in 2.I great detail. For instance, here It gives great 2 2 detail of the procedure that, is used in our own 2 3 Laboratories, and it ijives detail of: the procedures 24 documented at. ASTM out in the industry. And it. goes ?.ri into t h i. s detail, also, on s a in p l i ng methods. Then NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019420 3.iO 1 it (joea into auc h things as on loading of tank cars. 2 Now, T remember this. It was sort, of 3 embarrassing. A man would come and buy his Hirst 4 tank car, and it. would be shipped. And he would 5 have gone to the effort of buiLding an unloading 6 dock to receive this thing. And he built this 7 dock -- would have built it to unload from the 8 bottom, where tank cars usually do unload. 9 Q. And wouldn't even know enough to know how 1 0 to unload the car? 1 1 A. Wouldn't, know how to unload the car. Ours 1 2. unload through the top. Things like this. They 1 3 were intended, in detail, for our customers -l 4 Q. Okay, Ho - 1 5 A. -- of which there weren't many. Q. Okay. So, you'd provide a document Like 1 7 that to General Electric and a document t.o 18 Westinghouse and a document to A1 i ia -ChaLmers - 1 9 A. Exactly. 2 0 Q. -- and those sorts of people? 2.1 A. Exact 1y. 2 2 Q. I-et. me look at that document with you for a 2 3 little bit just to go over the sorts of things that 2 4 are in it.. It's qot in here a index or table of 23 o ontonts -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. HARTOLDMONO019421 33 1 1 A . y o 3. 2 Q. - - at the. f i rfl t., doesn't it? 3 A . fJh - h it h . 4 (1. And there it deals with a lot. of things 5 about what it's going to cover. For example, it has 6 a chapter on unloading tank cars? 7 A. Right. 1 saw that here somewhere, the tank 8 c.ar unloading. All right. 9 Q. rt has a chapter on storage tanks? 1 0 A. Right. We disclosed the kind of storage l 1 tanks we used. 1 2 Q. Has a chapter on gas -- gasketing and pump 13 pack i n g ? 14 A. Packing, right. 15 Q. Has an entire chapter on how to do sample? 1 6 A . Right. 1 7 Q. An entire chapter on how to do laboratory 18 analysis? 19 A. Correct. 2 0 Q. A chapter on the actual test, procedures? 21 A. Right. 2 2 Q. A chapter on typical properties? 2 3 A . Correct. 2 4 Q. A chapter on earth treatment of the 2 5 \roo tors and t h n i r mixtures? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019422 I A . Right. 2 Q. And a chapter on dermatology and 3 toxicology? 4 A . Yes . 5 Q. Okay. Now, did you writ, e each one of these 6 chapters yourself; or did you get any help on this 7 froM somebody else? 8 A . Most of it, T wrote by myself. 9 Well, no. Wait, a minute. 1 would 10 have to find out, "Now, what Is it the design and l 1 the construction of the storage tank?" 1 wouldn't l 2 know tills offhand. 13 Q Okay . ] 4 A . I had t.o go elsewhere to get t.his. You can l 5 go down the line. L was in an office. I J 6 accumulated this information from other people, to 17 answer your question. 1 8 Q. Okay. The chapter on tank cars, for 19 example -- 20 A . Uh huh . 21 Q. start.a off and it's got some very 2 2 specific directions on what to do, doesn't it? 2 3 A . 1 would think so. 2 4 Q. E mean, for example, it explains there are 2 b either two or three -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019423 333 I A. Vea. 2 Q. -- connections on l. he top of the car 3 A. Right. 4 Q. -- and exactly what size they are? 5 A . r t ' 3 very d t a l L e d , right, 6 Q . Exactly what pressures to use? 7 A. And that information was given to me from 8 our plant, 9 Q. Right. Rven even goes to the point of l 0 explaining that the car has got to be level and the 1 1 brakes have got. to be stst before you can unload it? 12 A. We know this. 13 Q. Okay. So, it's very detailed with regard l 4 to that? IS A. It ' s very detailed. 16 Q. All right. And that same sort of detail 1 7 follows through that whole chapter, basically a 1 8 stop- by-step how to do it? 19 A. Right. And that .... 1 obtained from our 20 plant. 21 Q. Right.. When we come to storage tanks - - 2 2 A . Same thing. 2 3 Q. Same thing, very detailed description of 24 storage tanks, exactly how they should be built, 7S exactly what, materials to use and everything. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019424 I correct? 2 A . Right . 3 Q* Talks -even has drawinqs on how to do it. 4 and the exact sixes of the nozzles, doesn't it? 5 A. It sure does. 6 Q. Okay- When we get to the chapter on 7 gasketing and pump packing, it describes - 0 A. A specific. 9 Q. -- specific types of connections, gives the 10 part number and the company you can get it from? 1 1 A . That ' s the purpose o f t his l 2 Q . Okay. The chapter o n the sampling methods. 1 3 again , is very specific on how you do it, is it not? l 4 A. That's correct. 1 5 t>. Explains what you can do, the particular 16 type of sample bottle, how --- what size It is, what J 7 color it is and everything, doesn't it? 10 A. Tha t ' 3 correc t. 19 Q. Okay. When you start talking about 2 0 laboratory analysis, again, you have a great deal of 21 detail on exactly what to do, don't you? 2 2 A, Thl8 is right. 2 3 Q , Explains t.he s i /.e bo1.1.1 e to use and what. 2 4 flask and what beaker and exactLy what methods are 25 to be u 3 e d , correct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019425 .1 1 Tj I A. Right. And that wad obtained from our 2 laboratory es. 3 Q. Right.. Then it talks about the actual test 4 procedures. These are specific procedures to make 5 sure that, the electrical properties have been 6 properly maintained? 7 A. This is correct. 8 Q. Okay. And it has great detail on those 9 test, procedures; is that correct? l 0 A. That's correct. * 1 1 Q. K v e n has in here some points, in capital 12 letters, "Caution," you know, "Don't touch the J 3 e 1 ec.trodes with your hands," that sort of thing? l 4 A. That would contaminate them. 1 5 Q. Okay. Gives the details on the specific 16 apparatus to be used, like a certain oscilloscope, 1 7 particular model number and everything, light.? L 8 A. (No response) 19 Q. Ia that correct.? 2 0 k. Yes, that's correct. 21 Q. Talks about specific safety in operating 2 2 controls on certain equipment that are used, 2 3 explains exac11y the order to go and which button to 24 pU3h and when, correct? 2 3 A. That's in the laboratory, yes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019426 .1 ti I Q. Very data Lind on that? 2 A. Yes. 3 MR. ('RAW FORD s Say, David, about, ready 4 Cor a break? S MR. IjACKY : Why don't you .let me 6 t Ln iah -7 MR. CRAWFORDt All right,. 8 MR. L A C K Y ; - this document right 9 here? ] 0 Q. (Ry Mr. Lacey) In fact, in talking about l 1 the teat procedures here on Page 47, Document 1 2 No. 2017, it. expresses you should -- "Danger. Make 13 sure to check knob La in the check position 14 otherwise painful shock will result"? 15 A, That's right. 1 6 Q. Just down to the point of. exactl y where to 17 set the particular controls at any point In the 1 8 testing, right? 19 A. That's cor roc t. 2 0 THB REPORTER I "Twenty" or 21 "twenty-seven" seventeen? 2 2 MR. I.ACF. Y : 20 17. 23 Q. (Ry Mr. Lacey) Talks at another point, on 2 4 Page 48, No. 2018, another caution; talks about, the 2 5 500 volt D.C. charge and the shock hazard that NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019427 :s i v I exists In handling the apparatus, correct? 2 A . That's correct.. 3 Q. . The next page. It observes again, 4 underlined, the possibility of painful shock, 5 doesn't It? 6 A, If you get a jolt of 500 volts 7 Q . you'll know it, won't you? 0 A. - you'll know it. 9 Q. Okay. In fact, that chapter on the test 10 procedures goes on and on and on, doesn't it? It's 1 1 a pretty long chapter? 1 2 A. This was the area in which 1 operated. l 3 I've been trying to get that across to you. 1 4 Q. Okay. Then you had 15 A. Now you're learning. 1 6 Q. Then you had a chapter on the typical l 7 properties of Aroclors, correct? 10 A. Yes. 19 Q. And you gave the 2 0 A. Yes. 21 Q. -- the trade names and what they were made 2 2 up of? 2.3 A. And the specifications. 2 4 Q. And you have specifications for each 21> Aror.lor? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019428 .i t) I A . That's correct. 2 Q. All r i qht. , And that has all sorts of 3 data LI in there, all the constants that go with it? 4 A. And t. h i fl is the same data that is 5 documented at the American Society for Testing and 6 Materials find, also, internationally. 7 Q. Then we have the chapter on earth a treatment .... 9 A. Yes. ) 0 Q. .... and it describes specifically how you 11 c ou Id filter Aroclors through s pec la l earth to take 1 2 ou t impurities, correct? 13 A . This Is correct, 1 4 Q. Defines the specific places you could get 15 t h e materials and alL of what it takes to order 1 t 1.6 and do it, correct? l 7 A . This Is correct. 1 fl Q. Okay. Then we come to the chapter on 19 dermatology and toxicology. Now, did you write that 2 0 chapter? 21 A. Well, this was qiven to me from the medical 2 2 department. '?. 3 Q . 1 s e e . 2 4 A. 1 did not --- 1 don't know what you mean by 2 5 "write it." NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019429 .) -i I Did T copy it down; did I Hot' mutate 2 this; did 3 decide what, to p\it. here? 3 No . 4 &. Okay. 5 A. I received this from the medical fi department. r know exactly w It a t La in here, and 7 thin i3 where it came from. 8 Q . Okay. Well , lot me atop -9 A . And -- oh. I'm sorry. to Q I * m sorry. Go ahead. You can tell ae 1 1 about the medical. U A . Weil --1 3 fi. I've got. 14 A . Well, here again, in this area. talk t. 15 modic a l people. J 6 Q Okay , l 7 A. I -- t gave what I received. ] a Q. Now, in the other chapters, for example, 19 how to unload a tank car, you got that from your 20 plant people, correct? 2 1 k. Yea, [ did, 2 2 Q. And it gave stop by step what, to do -just, 2 3 tho way your plant people did it, correct? 2 4 A . This is correct. 2 5 Q. And on the storage tanka, you got the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019430 -i t u 1 Information there Prom your plant people and gave 2 step by step just how to hand] e a storage tank, .3 correct? 4 A . This if. right.. 5 Q. And on the section about laboratory 6 procedures, that, came step by step fro* 7 A . We i l, we went through the whole t h L n g 8 Q Yes. 9 A . We're right on the entire thing there 10 Q . Yes . 1 1 A . - - t. h a t you're talking about. l 2 Q- Weil, let mo ask my question. 1 3 Now, on the laboratory procedures, you L 4 went step by step just the way Monsanto did It in 15 the laboratory, correct? 16 A. And as it was done by others in the field, 1 7 industry, yes. 18 Q. Okay. The sane thing with filtering the 19 Aroclors through the earth, step by step just like 20 Monsanto did it, correct? 21 A, Yes. We already said all these things. 22 Q, I want to make sure that each set of 23 directions were step by stop iust like Monsanto did 2 4 it themselves, correct? 2 5 A. Yes. Yes . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019431 -'4 I 1 Q . Now -- 2 A. Okay. 3 Q . - - my question t o you in: Or: t he 4 dermatology and toxicology and safe handling, did b you set out there step by at e p in detail exactly how 6 PCS'a were handled in Monsanto's plants? 7 A. No. I went in accordance with what was 8 given to me by the medical department. 9 Q. So, that's the only portion of this book to that doesn't give the step by step handling 1 1 procedures the same way Monsanto did it in their 12 plants; isn't that right? 13 A. Oh, it doesn't do this. This --- I have to t 4 agree. [ agree with you on this. l`i Q. And every other portion of the book does 16 give the step by steps, doesn't it? 1 7 A. Yes . 10 Q. And the reason you put that, in there is 19 because that's what the medical department gave you 2 0 to put in there? 2 l A. Tha t ' s where it came from. 2 2 Q. And they're the ones -- 2 3 A . D r . iJchwarti! ' s k in - patch test. 2 4 Q - Did Dr. Schwartz give that, to you? 2 5 A . No . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019432 i4 I Q . Who (jdvrt LI ho you? 2 A. That came from t. h e in e d i c a J. department, 3 Q. Or. Kelly? 4 A. Well, it came through him, let me say. 5 That's where i. t came from, 6 Q. from Dr. Kelly? 7 A. from the medical department. a Q. Well, do you know whether it came, from 9 Dr. Kelly or - ~ or one of his people? 1 0 A. Oh, I don't know. I -- 1 can't, answer 11 thi. 3. It came from that aroa, 12 Q, Who was working with Dr. Kelly in the 13 medical department back in 1954? 1 4 A. T think Fllmor Wheeler was there. 15 Q. Were they aware of the type of book you J 6 were writing for everything else and what this was 1 7 go i ng to go into? J a A. What this information here would be 19 included in? 2 0 Q. Yes. 2 1 A. They should have been. 2 2 Q. You made them aware of that? 2 3 A. It was certainly ~TM to my knowledge, yes. 2 4 Q. Okay. 2 5 A. That was the operation procedure, yes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019433 14 3 L Q. And lifter you got th.it back and put the 2 rent of the book together, it. was finally done; and 3 then provided to customers, correct? 4 A . This is correct.. 3 Q. Okay. C believe Mr. Crawford indicates 6 it's abouI time to take a break; so, why don't we 7 atop right here? fl THE VIDKOURAPHKR: We are now going 9 off the record. The time la 2 j 3 6 p.m. 10 (Short Recess) l l THB VrnflOCRAPHRR: We are now back on 1 2 the record. The time is 2iS>9 p.m. l 3 Q. (Oy Mr. f/acoy) Mr. RenLgnus, let me show 1 4 you document 2 0 b 2 through 2138 and ask you if this l 5 isn't an updated version of your work on the proper 1 6 handlinq of Aroclors and their mixtures in the l 7 Electrical Industry. 1 0 A . That. is. 19 Q. And this work follows the format of the; 20 original in that it has all of the detailed 2 1 information in each chapter on the specific Monsanto 2 2 procedures for doing everything with the exception 2 3 of the - not having the specific detailed 2 4 procedures on exactly how Monsanto handles PCB's in 2F their plant, units; is that correct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019434 1 4 1 A. That's the way it roads. 2 Q. Okay. Then, let mo show you -- by the way, 3 the -- what was the date of: that u pda to? 4 A . 56. 5 Q. Okay. And why did you produce an updated 6 version in 19 5 6? 7 A . We ran out.. 8 Q . Okay. 9 A. That's all. t 0 Q. You sold out the first printing? 1 1 A. It. went. They were intended for a handful t 2 of? customers; and where they alL went, C don't know. 1 3 Q. Okay. Now, let me show you anot.hexl 4 document, 2139 through 2252, and ask you if this is 1 f> a 1960 update of your previous work entitled "The 16 Proper Handling of Aroelors and Their Mixtures in 1 7 the KJectrical Industry." l 8 A. Yes, it is, 19 Q . And was t. h a t printed because the i 9 5 6 20 edition had run out? 21 A. Sad to nay, yea. 2 2 Q. You - - you had a popular work there? 2 3 A. I -- it dumbfounded me, really. 2 4 Q. (low many copies of? this thing do you think 2S got. distributed between 195 2, 19 5 6, and 1960? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019435 .1 ! j I A . E don't know. 2 Q . Quite a fpw of them. 3 A. Quite a few. 4 Q' Did people, who got the 19 5 2 edition also 5 got a 1956 edition? 6 A. Not. necessarily. 1 don't know why they 7 would want another one. 8 Q. Now, the - - the 195 2. edition and the 1956 9 editions were almost identical, were they not? 10 A. Correct . 11 Q. Let. me compare with you the 1956 edition 12 and the I960 edition to look at the changes or 13 additions that were present there. Now, that's the 14 '56 edition, and here's the *60 edition. 15 1 thought we might look at the ~ - just, 16 the index or table of contents. 1 7 A . Okay. 1 8 Q. It appears that in 1960 you added some 19 additional chapters. We've still got "Unloading 20 Tank Cars." We've stil'J got. "Storage Tanks," got a 21 "Gasketing and Pump Tanking" -- "Pump Packing." 2 2 A . 11 h h u h . 2 3 Q. Wti've qot "Sampling Methods." We've got 2 4 "Laboratory Analysts and Test Procedures." 2 5 A . u h -- h u h . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019436 .1 4 I Q. We ' vr got a section on "Typical. 2 Propertie." 3 K. Oh. 4 Q. And then we have a new Chapter No. 8 in the 5 1960 edition, don't we, called "Quality Requirements 6 of A r o c 1 o r s Prior to Use in Electrical Industry"? 7 A. Yes. Okay. 8 Q. And t.hen we have a chapter on "Earth 9 Refinement." That's Chapter 9 here -TM 3 0 A . Yes. Yes. t 1 Q. - where It used to be Chapter 8? 1 2 A . R i q h t. . 1 3 Q. And then we. have another chapter called 14 "Contamination," which is new. 1 5 A. Yes. 16 Q. Ar>d another chapter called "Reworking l 7 Contaminated Transformer AskoraL," which is now? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And t. len the same last chapter ~ ~ 20 A. Yes. 21 Q, called "Dermatology and Toxicology," 2 2 correc t? 23 MR. CRAWFORD: David, have you 2 4 identified both those documents by numbers? 2l' MR. I.ACKYi I believe we have. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019437 34 / I T h 19 6 6 document La 2 0 6 2 through 2 2138, and the 1960 document, in 2139 t. hrough 2252. 3 MR. CRAWFORD; Okay. 4 MR. LACEY j Have we got a .... have we 5 got somothinq on Mr. Wheeler? 6 MR. SHOKHOTHAMt Why don't we .... why 7 don't wo go o f. the record? 8 MR. LACK Vi Well, why don't we just. go 9 ahead and leave It on the record ao I've got it? 1 0 That will 11 MR. SHOEHOTHAM: Why don't we take it 12 off the video? 1 3 MR. LACKy ; That's fine to take it off 14 the video. That's 1 5 THE VIDBJOGRAPHRR : We're about to go 16 off the record -- off the video. The time i. a 3;03 17 P Rl 18 THE REPORTER: Who are you, please? 19 MU. SHOEHOTHAM: E'm John Shoebotham. 20 I a an attorney represent, ing Monsanto Company. 21 MR. CRAWFORD; God, do wo need to 2 2 swear him in? 23 MR. SHOKHOTHAM: Mr. Beniqnua, 1 2 4 haven't met. you. I'm Mr. Shoebot.haa. 2 8 THK WITNESS: I'* Mr. Beni gnus. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019438  O I MR. SHOKHOTHAM i E ,in going to - 2 Mr. Lacey has asked me for dales on which 3 Mr. Wheeler, Mr. Rimer Wheeler, will be available 4 for his deposition. Mr. Wheeler will he available 5 f o r his dopes It ion on May fi, 7 , or 8 , l 9 B 7 . 6 Mr. Wheeler would prefer to do the 7 deposition In either Camden or Columbia, South a Carolina, due to health considerations. He has 9 difficulties in traveling because of some health 10 concerns. He would be available in either one of 11 those two places, either Camdon or Columbia. j ?. He, also because of his health 11 concerns, does not want to be in a situation where 1 4 the deposition days last too long; and we would make 1 5 him available tor two days and would hope that the 1 6 days would be a little shorter in view of his l 7 health. 1 8 MR. I. AC BY! What is considered a day 19 that he would want to spend in deposition? 20 MR. SHOEHOTHAM: 1 don't know an exact, 2 1 number of hours. I can get that for you, though, 22 certainly 2 3 MR . I.ACKY : Okay . 24 MR. UHOEBOTHAMi X suggest we schedule 2 r. him perhaps for May 7th and 8t.h, if that's NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019439 .H 4 I acceptable with you; but E think -any one ot those 2 three days are. fine with hi in. 3 MR. LACEY: Es this re one place that's 4 easier to get. to than t.he other? > MR. SHOKBOTHAM t t woulil gues3 6 Columbia, but I don't know. 7 a Friday. MR. LACKYi Lot mo got back to you by 9 Are you going to be going out to San l 0 Diego? 11 MR. SHORHOTHAMi No. l 2. MR. LACEY: Let me get back to you by 1 3 Friday, e.it.her by phone or whatever; and we'll pick 14 a date and a place after E ' v e chocked the airline IS schedule. J f. I am inclined at this time t.o go with 17 the 7th in Columbia just because E suspect we can lfl get there easier than Camden. 19 But you ai'H able to assure me you will 20 be able to produce him? 2 l MR. SHORHOTHAMi Yes. 2 2 MR. LACEY: So, we will not go 2 3 pui'suant to the subpoena? 2 4 MR. SHORHOTHAMi This is off the 2 5 record. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019440 .) u 1 (Discussion o t f. t he Record) 2 Q. (By Mr. I.acey) With the 1960 version of 3 "The Proper HandLimj oC Aroclors and Their Mixtures 4 in the Blectrical Industry," what was the purpose of fi add i n<j the chapters on "Quality Requ ireaen ts , " 6 "Cont.ai nation, " and "Reworking Contaminated 7 As kera l " 7 8 A . The purpose of the whole thing , 1 assure 9 you, was to pass along any Information that we had 1 0 that, we felt would be of interest. And we've done l l our very best. 1 2 Q Okay . 1 3 A. And you understand the are.a 1 am concerned 14 i n . 1 h Q. yes. And, again, this I960 version, like 16 the previous two versions, had all the detailed 1 7 information about exactly how Monsanto did each step 18 in every chapter except "Dermatology and 19 Toxicology," correct? 7.0 A. This is correct. 21 Q. Okay. And in that, chapter on "Dermatology 22 and Toxicology" what was supplied was the 2 3 information t.he medical department gave to you to 24 include in this work? 2 b A. That's t.he information that, was available NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019441 35 I I to mo, correct, 2 Q. Right.. Did you actually review the 3 Information provided to you .about dermatology and 4 toxicology t.o ensure that it. met. what you knew; or 5 just because it was supplied, you put It in? 6 A. it *et. what. I had read previously. And 1 7 think this is it. And this ref: era to things that B had been published in the literature, et. cetera. 9 Q. bet me ask you a uoupLo of questions about 10 some of the material in that, section on dermatology 1 t and toxicology. 1 2 A . All right. 13 Q. r think that the Language remains 14 relatively constant through all three versions. 15 A. It does. 16 Q. See if I can get the three versions here in 1 7 front of us. 1 B This is the 1956 version 19 A. And this is --20 Q. The 1960 version. 2 1 A . '60. All rig h t. 2 2 Q. And we have, here, also, the 1952 version. 2 3 A. Yes . 2 4 Q. Now, t.he first paragraph in each one of 25 these versions --- or additions, I guess, maybe would NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019442 ^ 1 be the way to put It - - talks about skin contact; 13 2 that correct? 3 A. Whore? 4 Q. In the first paragraph. 5 A. "Ilk In s how a no primary Irritancy or 6 sensitization." 7 I think this in different, isn't it? 8 Q. Weil, what f'in asking about Is whether the 9 first paragraph in each one talks about skin. 1 0 A. This one certainly does, the one I'm 1 1 reading. 1 2 Q. Okay. And the other two? 13 A. t see "skin" hero and "skin" here. 1 4 Q. Okay. Now, in the 1952 version and the 1 5 1956 version, the first paragraph about skin is 16 identical in each one, in it. not? These two are 17 both identical? 18 A. They seem to be, yes. 19 Q. And, in fact. If wo go to the second 2 0 paragraph, the section on toxicology and skin is 2 1 identical? 2 2 A. This is riqht. . 2 3 Q. The third paragraph la also Identical on 2 4 these two, t he '52 and 2 5 A. One, two, three. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019443 3T>3 I Ifna . 2 Q. And the fourth paraqraph in almost 3 identical. There'a a change in the numbers for the 4 appropriate concentrations, is t.hei e not? 5 A. From this Is a 7; and this was a 1, I 6 see. 7 Q. Yes. Hut otherwise, those paragraphs are 8 identical, are they not? 9 A . Corr ect . 1 0 Q. Now, in the 19b2 version, in that paragraph 1 l about air concentrations, you indicated that thm 1 7 safe concentration was in the range of . b to 1 13 milligram per cubic meter of air, correct? 1 4 A . Yes. 1 Si Q. In t.he 19b6 version, you raised that safe 16 concentration Erom -- to l to 2 milligrams per cubic J 7 meter of air? 1 8 A. I didn't raise it. That's probably a 19 typographical error or something. 7.0 Q. Okay. Okay. So, you think that 2 l A. It's - it's in the - - it's in the order of 77 magnitude there. 7 3 Q. Okay. 7.4 A. There's not anything significant on that. 7. 5 Q. The - ~ Let me go ahead and get the '8 2 and NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019444 34 I '56 version a com pa rod beforn wo look at '60, which 2 is aokewhat different.. 3 A . Okay. All righ t. 4 O'. The next paragraph and I'll just. get. you 5 to look at those -- 6 A. Okay . 7 Q. the next, paragraph in the 1952 and '56 8 versions are identical, are they not? Here - 9 A. "Laboratory" - 10 Q . -- "Technique." 11 A. All right. Yes. l 2 Q . Then the next para g rap h la also identical, 13 is it not? 14 A, Yos . 1 5 Q. And t he next, paragraph? 16 A. Yea. Now, thia ia plant procedure - - 17 Q. Okay . 18 A. -- incidentally. 1 9 Q. Yen. We'll talk about that in a second. 2 0 A. Ail right. 2 1 Q. The next paragraph, .is that also identical? 2 2 A. Yes. 23 Q . And then the Iasi, paragraph, is that also 2 4 identica l ? 2 5 A. Yes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019445 I Q. '.; o, the only difference between the '52 - 2 A . IS 1 versus 2. .3 Q. - - Is the air concentration. And you think 4 that ay be a typographical - 5 A . Tha t -- that may be an aberration. 6 Q. Okay . best's talk about the changes between 7 the 19 5 6 vor a ion and then the I960 version, Now , fl a g a i n, these changes were made by the medical 9 department. Information they supplied you; is that 1 0 correct? 1 J A. Well, (ionic of t. h i a la the same. 1 think l 2 there are statement a added hero. If they are -- 1 3 this - apeak 1 nq of an open t.ranaformer, no, that l 4 probab L y isn't from the medical department. This is 15 from the the industry, who who wakes 16 transformers 1 7 Q. Okay. 1 fl A. and our judgment. I 2 would agree 19 with it. If a transformer a temperature above is 20 opened if it's above; that, "to open, provide 21 exhaust ventilation." I wouldn't need the medical 2 2 department, t. o tell m e t. h a t. . 2.3 Q. Okay. Well, let's - - then, let's stop 2 4 and - and first look at the 1952 and 1956 versions; 2 53 bet; a use apparently the I96 0 version has some NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019446 h I Information that you put In there other t h an from 2 the Medical department, correct? 3 A. I would 3<i y this is correct. 4 Q. Well, let's atop; and let me auk you to 5 look at the 1956 version of: your "Dermatology and G Toxicology" section. Could you do that. for me? 7 A . This? You want me to look at - -- 8 Q Yes, the 1956 version. 9 A . I'm seeing it. 10 Q Well, t. h a t ' a - - you're actually looking at l 1 1960 1 2 A . '60. Well, I don't have the '56 version. 13 Q That's what I'm trying to - 14 A . Oh . 15 Q. - ~ hand you right hero. lfi A . Oh, all right. 17 I'm seeing it, yes. 18 Q. Okay. Can I hand that, to you? 19 A. Oh, sure. 2 0 Q. Okay. Now, .in looking at t. h e information 21 on dermatology and toxicology In the 1956 version 2 2 A. That's this. 23 Q. -- of your book, what information in there 2 4 d 1 d not come from the medical d e p a r t m e n t., if any? 2 5 A. Only t he second page, too. For instance. NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019447 t " Fiocal izev spot ventilation together with gen oral 2 workroom exhaust is recommended for plant 3 operat ions . " 4 fr. Did that, come from the medical department.? 5 A . E really don't know. I red L l y don't know, 6 but. i t. i a t.here . 7 Q. Where miqht. it have come from if not. from 8 the medical department? 9 A. It's a statement that, makes sense. I would 10 think maybe from the industrial hygiene -- well, 1 ] that, is t. he medical department. l 2 Et's a statement that certainly makes 1 .3 sense and could have well come from the medical l 4 department or the plant department or -- or 1 5 wherever. 1 6 Q. What, about, that next .... l 7 A. l!n other words, it talks about spot 1 8 ventilation. 19 Q. All right. What about that, next paragraph, 20 which indicates that canvas gloves, safety glasses, 2 1 or goggles should be worn when sampling tank cars; 2 2 did that come from the medical department? 2 3 A . ft was I don't know if it. originated 2 4 with the medical department or whether it came from 2 b the p1 a n t. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019448 _i '.i Cl I Q. Okay. 2 A . It may have come from 1 he plant. Hut. 3 certainly, run by tin; medical department, T. 'm acre 4 they would agree. It seems to me that t hat, i h a 5 plant procedure that you asked about. 6 Q. Now, in regard to this paragraph talking 7 about sampling tank cars, does that talk only about 8 when sampling tank cars; or does that talk about 9 other procedures, in addition, where a person is ) 0 working with PCB's? t l A . It. s ays, " when sampling tank cars." 1?. Q . Yeah . So, the next sentence -n A . That 's why 1 say I think it came from our 1 4 plant.. 15 Q. Okay . And does the n e x t. sentence about. 16 c loth! n <j also refer to p e o ple who sample tank car3 J 7 A . That would - - should - should apply to 18 anybody. yourself or myself, if it gets spilled on 1 9 us, yes . 2 0 Q. Okay. So, the section there that says no 21 special clothing is required and recommends 22 laundering the workers' garments weekly 2 3 A. Yes. 2 4 Q. - - would refer not only to people sampling 2 5 tank cars, but also to peopLe working in a plant NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019449 1 with PCB'm? 2 A . Yen. Yes. .3 Q. Okay. 4 A. That's why that ia Uum e. Ye s, that's a 5 (jeiicrj t statement. 6 Q. With reqard to t.he remainder of this .... the 7 next last two paragraphs, did that also come from 8 the medical department, or from some other source? 9 A. [ would say that this came from the 1 0 capac i tor-i mpreqna t. i ng industry. This is standard 1 l practice there, when opening a 12 capiici tor-impregnal inq chamber, that, a respirator \ 3 a hould be worn during these short intervals. One 1 4 would find a respirator in that area. 15 Q. So, the people that you were writing this 16 for qa v e you the information to put in there to 1 7 write back to thorn, then? 1 8 A. It. could have originated there, yea. 19 Q. Did it originate there? 20 A . I would say that, statement did originate 21 there. 2 2 Q. Okay. So, that didn't come from the 21 medical department, then? 2 4 A. I wouldn't think so. 1 think they would 2.5 agree with t; h i. a as a matter of fact. That's why a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019450 Jfeu 1 respirator is there, to protect. 2 Q. Okay. What, about the last, paragraph? Did 3 that paragraph come from the medical department? 4 A . I'm not. sure that this came; from the 5 medLcal department or whether tills came from ijcneral 6 consensus from the .... from the industry. 7 Q. Thore is a reference there to c h 1 o i* i n a t e d a benzene. That is talking about the benzene ring 9 that you drew for ua yesterday, but replacing one or 1 0 more of the hydrogen atoms on it with a chlorine l l atom? 1 2 A . yeah. 1 3 Q. Okay. And some of. the transformer fluids 14 had a mixture of pro's and chlorinated benzene; is 15 that, correct? 16 A. This is correct. 1 7 Q. And that's why you reference chlorinated 18 benzene? 1 9 A. This is correct. 20 Q. Now, let me auk you to look, if you would, 2 1 at the I96 0 version. I'll take that. '56 version - 2 2 A. Okay. 2 3 (). and qet it out of the way here. 2 4 Let me Look at the I960 version with 2 5 you. And let's go back to the first portion of the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019451 1h l I suction thcro on - w 1 v.> qono - - wo've inis smi It, 2 haven't we? 3 Try.5ncj to find where; it begins. Here 4 we go. 5 A . Oh . 6 Q. The chapter on dermatology and toxicology" 7 starts at Document No. 2 2 4.3 . Now, the L: 1 r s t 8 p a r a g r a p h , does t. h a t. come from the medical 9 department? 1 0 A. T would say so. l l Q . A L 1 right. 1 2 A . That's my impression. 13 Q. And, again, you have indicated to me that 1 4 you would say, if - - if it were up to you, that if t 5 PCfl's get on the skin, they should be washed off 1 6 immediately with soap and water, correct? 1 7 A. Within reasonable promptness, yes. 1 8 Q. Okay. 19 A. Right. 3 would say that any time. 20 Q . Now, the aucond p a r a g r a p h, that's that same 21 paragraph on sampling tank cars, correct? 2 2 A . Y e s . 5fes. 2 3 () . And the 3 e c o ri d sentence there t. a 1 k s about 24 the general attire of: workmen both around tank cars 2 f and in the plant, working with PCH's, correct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019452 -i < 1 A . 0 a y this rii(.un . 2 Q. Yes. T he first sentence in this second 3 paragraph -~ 4 A . "When sampling tank earn," 5 Q . - - talks about wearing ij lovea - f> A . Yes. 7 Q. .... and safety glasses when sampling tank 8 <: a r s ? 9 A . Yeah. 1 0 Q. Now, the second sentence talks about no 1 1 special clothing and laundering the workers' 1 2 garments once a week? l 3 A. Yes . 1 4 (). Now, that relates not. only to people l S sampling tank cars, but also to people working In 1 6 the plant with PCD ' s? l 7 A. Yos. 10 Q . Okay. 19 A. Yes. 2 0 Q. Now, the third paragraph talks about 2 l burn*. 22 A . nh- huh . 23 Q. Did that information come from the medical 2 4 department? 2 b A. Yes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019453 t Q Anti it also h a :j in thnrfi the r> y e - 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. .... problem and suggests to see a doctor if 4 there's -- b A . Y(id , 6 Q . - oye contact? 7 A . Wight.. That came from the medical 8 depart: id n n t. 9 Q. Okay. If we qo to the; next page, where it 10 talks about vapors In the first paragraph -- 1 J A . Yes. 1 2 Q. did that information come fro* the l 3 mediCiil dopartuont? - 1 4 A. Yen. 1 5 Q. Now, again, here on the concentration l 6 L e v o L s -- 17 A . Wai t a minute. Wait, a minute. Wait, a 18 minute. Wait a minute. 1 9 "Vapors from hot Jlroclor or Aakeral 20 have a degree of toxicity and should not be Inhaled 2 1 over a prolonqod period of time." This, the medical 22 department, would agree .with. I would say this. 2 3 This i u s t. makes common, ordinary sense;, t. h a t the 2 4 vapors from tho hot Aroc lor or Askarols have a 2 b degree of toxicity and a h o u 1 d n o t. he i n h a 1 e d o v e r a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. HARTOLDMON0019454 I prolonged period of; time. 2 Anything I've ever stated said avoid .3 breathing the vapors and dusts from PCB's. And this 4 i a well entabl i shrc'l . So, the medical department, I 5 ass tiro you, wouLd not disagree with it. I'm well 6 aware of this myself. I've always said this. it's 7 a, you might say, well- documented and 8 wel1-established statement. 9 Q. Well, did that - 1.0 A. no not. inhale vapors from a PCB's . 1 l Q. Did that statement, though, come from the 1 2 medical department.; or' is that your s t. a t e is e n t. ? l 3 A. Originally it would have come from the 14 medical d e p a r t m e ti t . 1 8 Q. Okay. Now, in this section we return to 16 the .5 to l - 1 7 A. Kxcuse me. It. would come from t.he medical 18 department within the boundaries of Monsanto. And 19 anybody that knows about PCB's would -- would agree 2 0 with this. Anyone understanding PCR's would agree 21 with it. I have, no ti r e. a of d i s a g r e e in e n t., is what. 2 2 I'm saying on this. 2 3 Q. Okay. 2 4 A. Okay? 2 f> q. And it. and it c.omes from the medical NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019455 11> n I department, L n i. I: L a L I y ? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. okay Well, do you disagree with anythinq 4 in hare that comes from the medical department? b A . No, I don't. <> Q . Okay. Now, in this first paragraph, 7 talking about, air concentration - - 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. -- and vapors l 0 A. Yeah . 11 Q. wo see the . b to milligram per cubic 12 meter of a i r aga i n . 1 3 A. Yes. 1 4 Q. That goes back to the 19b2 version, does it 1 5 not? 1 6 A . Yea. 17 Q. Okay. Now, when we go to the second 10 paragraph, does that information come from the 1.9 medical department? 2 0 A. No. Tlie medical, department doesn't 21 necessarily know that a capacitor impregnation may 2 2 be done at a temperature as high as 2 fi 6 deg c o e s 2 3 Fahre. nhei t. . The;y would have read this, but thin 24 didn't come from the mod it: a l department. 2 b This came from knowledge as to how NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019456 \bb I high l. he impregnation i. a done, at times 130 degrees 2 centigrade. 3 Q. So, t hat, second paragraph on Document. 4 Mo. 2244 comes from somebody other than the medical b d e p a r t m v. n t. ? 6 A . It. comes from t he knowledge that capacitors 7 are often impregnated as high as 130 degrees 8 c e n t. i g r a d e , correct. 9 Q. And is that something you knew and wrote l 0 down? 1 1 A. Something I would have known. l 2 Q. Okay. 1 3 A, And any capacitor maker would have known. 14 Q. What about the third paragraph; does that 1 f> also come from something you knew, as opposed to the l 6 medical department? 1 7 A. I would know this, and the medical 1 8 department would know this. 19 Q. Well, did that statement in the third 20 paragraph come from the medical department or you? 2 1 A. This statement, here? 2 2 Q. Yes. 2 3 A . It. could have come from cither, 2 4 r.et me say this: If T were to say to 2*> the medical department that, the Askeral transformers NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019457 in I a r e used at t e m p n r a t u r o 3 above - - excuse m r> , Oh - 2 "if transformer Askarels" - I'm sorry -- "fluids 3 are used at temperatures above this to fill an open 4 transformer" ~~ okay - - "exhaust, ventilation should 5 be pcov idml in the immediate area." 6 Now, J 5 0 degrees F is more typical of 7 a transformer situation than 130 degrees C. Now, I R know if Askare]a are heated to this temperature, 9 the there will bo vapors and fumes; and, 1 0 therefore, this culls for exhaust ventilation, as I l l say; because any time you hoar mo say anything, I 1 7. say, "Do not breathe the vapors emitted at elevated t n temperatures." And I would say that 150 degrees ] 4 Fahrenheit is - is perhaps the starting point, of 1 s t hat. 16 Q. Well, my question to you, though, is 17 whether that third paragraph on 2244 is something 18 that was provided to you by the medical department 19 or that you put in yourself based on your own 2 0 knowledge. 2) A . I think 1 provided i t and -- and discussed 2 2 11 and ran it through the m ed ieat. department and it 2 3 was p u t. i n here. 24 Q. Okay. What about, the fourth paragraph on 2 5 2 24 4 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019458 ,'j t-. o I A . T h L 3 one? 2 Q . - - did that. c o in e f r o m the medical 3 department or from yon? 4 K. This came from the industry. And you'll (5 run Into this statement in other Literature that is 6 from the industry. 7 (). Who in the industry provided you with that 8 in tor mat ion? 9 A. People who made transformers would have l 0 boon the ones to comment and provide this, 1 1 transformer manufacturers. l 2 Q. That one - 1 3 A. Hecuuse they are the people who impregnated 1 4 capacitors and filled transformers, and this ia 1 t> their consensus. And to my knowledge, 1 don't know U5 of anything that would refute the Industry's it ) 7 demonstrates the: indus try's ability to handle these l 8 fluids without hazards to the workmen. 19 Nobody that. 1 know of came to Monsanto 2 0 with a problem along these lines. It says, "The 21 years of satisfactory use demonstrates the industry 2 2 ability to handle these fluids." 2 3 Q. Did you go - 4 2 4 A. That's the consensus in the industry. ?; q . Did you go out. and canvass the companies NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019459 .ib^ I th.it used Aak.i ni I 3 t o determi.no that they had not 2 had any problems? 3 A . No . 4 Q . We]], how did y o u come up w i t. h the; ] a n q u a q e ri for that statement, then? 6 A. 3 think you'].I find that in in / publications. a C). Well, we've seen similar statements in 9 other Monsanto publications. i o A. No. I mean other than Monsanto 11 p u bl1o a t ions . 1 7 Q. Whose publications wi]] we find that in? 1.1 A. Well, I think you'll find that in some 1 4 .later publications where the electrical industry lf> writes about these th i n gs. 1 6 Q. WelJ, what publications would I look at to t 7 find that? i a A. I would say ANSI and NRMA. 19 Q. Okay. And that's National Klectrlcai 2 0 Manufacturers Association? 2 l A. Vos. 2 7 And you haven't, looked at these, yet.. 21 Q . Okay. Maybo we can do that. 2 4 The last paragraph on that, page .... 2 r> A . All vL g h t. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019460 i Q . -- wc ' v< m last'd that i s talking about 2. good housekeeping , Where, did that statement, come 3 f rom? 4 A. This i it a general, you might flay, 5 observation, a general statement, that It is both 6 simple and in line with good housekeeping and 7 personal cleanliness, the exercise of suggested a precautions in all cases, 9 Q. Did that come j o A. it's a sensible statement to make, isn't 11 I t? i ? (.). Well, my question is: Where did it come L 3 from? The medical department or you? 1 4 A . They wovi 1 d certainly agree with it.. l 5 Q. Rut where did it come from, initially? Vou 1 6 or- the medical departmen t. ? l 7 A. I really don't know. It's a general 1 8 interest statement of common sense. T t.'s - -- it's 19 not a detailed medical presentation of medical data 2 0 or so forth. 21 Q, It doesn't, have much specifics with it? 2 2 A. r t doesn't have much specifics. It's just 2 3 an overall general statement to exercise these 2 4 precautions. Why make these precautionary 2 b statements if you're going to say don't, exercise NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019461 .t - l I thorn? 2 Q. Okay. 3 A . This i 5i what. I ' in trying to nay . 4 Q. Okay. And thou wn've got tho last - 5 A. Yeah. "Arced Atikeral . " 6 Q. Yeah. 7 A . l)h h u h , a Q. Where did this paragraph come from? 9 A. This cornea from obaorvationa and studies by 1 o the Underwriter's Laboratories, originally. Those 11 studios wore sponsored at the Underwriter's by 1 2 people like (Jen oral Klee trie and We. stiii ghouse and so i ;i forth. 1 4 Q. So, thin cornea from llnderwri ter 1 s 15 [laboratories' materials? 1 6 A . This is where this comes from. 17 Q. Okay. 1 8 A. This is where that, original, e a . 19 Q. Have we found out the sources of all the 2 0 statements that, you've got in thin 1960 version on 21 "Dermatology and Toxicology"? 2 2 A. An far as 1 know. 2 3 0 . Okay. And you were the author of tho book, 2 4 a t. least, nominally? 2 5 A . Yea. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019462 I Q. Okay. Let mo ask you about your knowledge 2 of the way transformer plants and capacitor plants 3 operated. Did you ever visit your customers' plants 4 to sve how they operated? <5 A . I've been in plants, yo3. 6 Q What, plants did you visit.? 7 A . I visited - I've been in the p L a n t at 8 Hudson Falls, New York. 9 Q Whose plant is that? 1 0 A . General Klee trie. t t Q What other plants? 1 2 A . I've been irt - - 1 visited the plant at l 3 H L o o hi i n g t on, Indiana, o n c e . 1 4 Q Whose - 1 L A . T don't, know if it was operating, but I 16 was - - I've been 1 7 Q Whose plant - -l 8 A . - - in the build L n g . 1 9 Q. Whose plant, was that? 20 A . That's WoatLnghouse. 2 1 Q. Okay . 2 2 A . I've been in the building. 2 3 Q What other- plant, s ? 2 4 A . Rise trica L Utilities at LaSalle, Illinois. 2 fi Q La Sa 1 1e ? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019463 I A . T h c! y m i g h I; h a v e b ee n liaSal tn, yeah. 2 They're out of bus i nfiii! , 3 Q . Electrical Utilities? 4 A. Yea. 5 Q . Wha t o tho ra ? 6 A. 1 really didn't - T want, to explajn 7 a o in c t h l n g h e r e . 1 a L d o m - - 1 never <1 i ii really g o 8 out a pec i f i ca 3 1 y t. o viait. a plant. It was 9 incidental on calling on the people that they 1 0 would somehow or other we'd get out into the l 1 plant area, to get a Coke or something like that and 1 2 so forth. 13 Q. I see. 1 4 A. 3 did not specifically put. on my hat. and l 5 coat to (jo out and visit anybody's plant. 1 6 (). What did you observe being manufactured at l 1 the G.K. plant in Hudson Falls, New York? 18 A. Capacitors. 19 Q. What did you observe being m a n u f a c t u r e d at. 20 the Westinghouse plant in Rloomington? 21 A. Capacitors, 2 2 Q. And what did you observe beinq manufactured 2 3 in the r, a `.1 a l l o , Illinois, K I Retried l II t L l i t L e s 2 4 plan l. ? ?S A . Yes. Capacitors. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019464 -1 4 I Q. M av o you over hewn in a plant whe r e 2 transformers are manufactured? 3 A. I've been at plants where transformers are 4 manufactured. I'm trying to - 5 You want-, to know whether I inspected 6 the plant.; is that, it? 7 Q. No. What plants have you been at where a transformers are manufactured? 9 A. Oh, have t been at where transformers are 1 0 made;? 1 l Q. Nh - huh. 1 2 A. I've been at. the West, ingho use plant. 1.1 Q. Where? 1 4 A. At. Sharon, Pennsylvania. Now, you l 5 understand "at the plant" doesn't mean that l was 1 6 out in the factory? l 7 Q. I understand. i a A. Okay. Okay. 19 Q. What other plants have you been at where ?.o transformers were manufactured? 2 l A. I was at the plant buildings, office, at 2.2. Rome, Georgia -- O.K. at. Rome, Georgia. 23 Q. That was a transformer plant.? 24 A. That's a transformer plant. 2 5 Q. Okay. What else? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019465 si :> I A . C w a 3 at: .in oft Lee L n G . K . ' s trans formal' 2 plant at Pittsfield. Massachusetts. 3 Q. What else? 4 A . J think I've been at the plant of 5 Mils -Cha liners at Pittsburgh, called on a man there. 6 () . What, other plants? 7 A. Wagoner R loetr lc and Maloney Electric. 8 0 Where were those located? 9 a . ;; t. fjou i a . 1 0 Q . noth of them? t I. A . fJ h h u h . 12 () . What else? t 3 A. 1 think that's about it. 1 4 () . Okay. 1.5 A. There are not that many. If. Q. Okay. When you visited the General 17 Klee trie Hudson Falls, New York, capacitor plant, i a did you go into the area where capacitors were being 19 made? 20 A. I have been in the area at Hudson Falls 2 l where capacitors were being made, yes. 22 Q. 0id you 2 3 A. C walked through there. 24 Q. Did you observe the process of: manufacture 2 5 go L ng on ? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019466 i r> I A. Vo a. Not that t was there to inapac t It; 2 but, yea, I observed, 3 Q. Did you observe the A roc. lor materials being 4 handled in a way that you tit ought was appropriate? B A . Well, they were handled in - in thin 6 particular location - it w a a appropriate, as far a s 7 I was concerned, walkinq through there. 8 There was ventilation, yes. I -- t 9 was not in a position to challenge and so on and no 10 forth. 1 J Q. Well, my question, though, in whether or 1 2 not you thought what you saw was appropriate or 13 not. . 1 4 A. I accepted that, that ' s what they were Hi doing. ] 6 Q. That's not my quest.ion, 1 7 A. I realise this. 1 B Q. Well, could you answer my question? 19 A. I would say t accepted what --- what they 20 were doing there. 21 I.e t. me put it this way: I was not 2 2 bothered by anything as I waLked through there. 2 3 From that, point of view, it's a c c e p t. a b 1 e to me and 2 4 appropriate. 2h Q. Okay. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019467 .i 7 7 I A. 1 was not; subjected to what I would 2 consider a harmful exposure to fumes, because what. J 3 was going by it was essentially at room 4 temperature. They were not opening a capacitor 5 chamber and this sort of a thing . I did not put 6 a mask. There was no occasion. T h i ng s were at 7 not'iDdl temperature. 8 Q. Okay. When - 9 A . f>o, from that point, I would say okay. 3 0 Q. When you went to the Westinghouae capacitor l 1 plant in Bloomington, Endiana, did you go into the 1 2 area where: capacitors were being made? 11 A. E don't think it was in operation. When I 1 4 went, there, 1 was asked - ~ they had moved there, and 15 Ralph Marberry had taken great pride in designing 1 6 that plant; and they had moved from East 17 Pittsburgh. ) 8 And he had set up a manifold system -19 system of impregnation. And his purpose of showing 2 0 me this was to show this method, which was different 21 from the usual method, which i3 batch flooding. Ho 2 2 impregnated each capacitor individually. 2 3 But'I - the thing wasn't running. It 2 4 wan new. It. wan there. He had just, designed and 2 5 b u 1.1 t this thing. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019468 J /H I Q . lio, you saw t h e plant b e I: o r o It actually 2 started up? 3 A . A a 1 remember, I saw it before it. start e d 4 up. 5 Q . Did i t. appear t o you that, the plant, was 6 designed as a new plant with appropriate 7 v e n t. i J. a t. i on? 8 A, 1 don't, think it wan running at that. time. 9 Q. No, that's not my question. Whether Lt was 10 denigned ~~ 1 l A. Oh, r don't know. 1 7. () . to have the appropriate ventilation. 13 A. r didn't inspect Lt. T didn't inspect lt. ] 4 Q. You didn't, observe anything about that? l 5 A. I didn't inspect their ventilating systems 16 and so forth, no. 17 Q . So, you certainly couldn't, criticise thin 13 plant that had been designed by Mr. Marberry? 19 A. I never did. No, I couldn't.. 7 0 Q. And were you Impressed -71 A. And 1 wasn't asked to. 2 2 Q . E understand. 7 3 A . I wasn't there to do that. He merely 7 4 showed this to me. 7 S Q. Well, were you impressed with the design he NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019469 1 had Cor Impregnating those capacitors and thought It 2 was a good one? 3 A . 1 w o u1d think so. I see nothing wrong with 4 a manifold impregnation. In fact, he EeLt there was S an advantage to it, ( guess. 6 Q. Okay. And you didn't see any disadvantage 7 t. o it.? a A. I saw no disadvantage to it.. 9 Q, Weil, what about when you visited the i o LaSalle, Illinois, Fleet, ri c Utilities capacitor L 1 plant; did you go out into the area where capacitors 12 were being made? 13 A. 1 was there in the area where capacitors 1 4 wore being made, yes. T'vo been there. If) Q. Did you observe anything that caused you 16 any concern about the way they were handling PCH's? 1 7 A . I felt that their ventilation may not have l 8 boon all that it should be, but I wasn't them to 19 call their inspector or anything else. 20 Q. Did you see -21 A. I - I c oxi Id smell more A) odor there at 22 that point in time than I would have expected to. 23 You realize, don't, you, that, you can 24 smell Aroclor? It's not without detectable odor. 2fi Q. What does Aroclor smell like? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019470 z 0 > ' ti u 1 A . ArocLor has a elnan odor. is the best I can 2 describe this to you. a clean odor. Ji has no odor 3 a s perfumes or flowers or anything ll k o t h a t . 4 Q- you wouldn't use it us perfume 5 A . bfiCdll!) o it doesn't Impart that kind o f 6 del i cate odor 7 Aroclor doesn't smell bad . It smells 8 clean. May I say "clean odor?" 9 Q. This is new A roc1 or ? 10 A . It's -- let mo say t hisi The nearest I can 11 nay that might be familiar to you is if you go into l 2 the washroom In a public place and you smell the 13 naphthalene - ~ okay? - - in other words, the 1 4 disinfectant. Tt's not a odor that upsets one. 15 It's ~~ it's a clean odor. And it's not a strong 16 odor at normal temperatures. 17 Q. This is - this in fresh Aroclor? 18 A. Well, T don't know what you mean by "fresh 1 9 Aroclor." 20 Q. Unused. 21 A. I'd say --unused? 2 2 Q. Yes. 2 3 A. That's true of unused; and it's true of 2 4 used, too. 25 Q. So, even Aroclor in a failed t.rannformer or NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019471  '-i i I a failed capacitor i. a going to have that same amolL? 2 A . Oh, now, wait, a minute. 3 Q. Well, that's what I'm trying to rind out. 4 A . Oh. Well, now, failed, you're probably 5 talking about an arcing failure of a transformer or 6 a case of a capar.it. or where the thing has consumed 7 itself. a Q. What smell would Aioclor have there? 9 A. In those situations -- remember, there's 1 0 more t.han PCB inside a transformer. There are l l celLutoslc materials, in the case of a transformer, 1 2 pressboard, wood, and things like that. 13 And if this thing has been subjected 14 to the heat one generates when there's an arc-formed 15 gas, you're going to get carbonization and odor 1 6 and -- and so forth that, is not at. all normal at 17 all. It's going to smell. You better believe it. J 0 Q. It. ' a going t. o have an unpleasant smell? 19 A. Oh, yes . 2 0 Q. Okay. 21 A. And you have hydrogen chloride. Yes, very 2 2 pungent. 2 3 Q. Okay. Now, at this Electric Utilities 2 4 plant In LaSalle, Illinois, you did not feel that 2 5 t. hey had the ventilation they should; is that NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019472 j x I corve<: t? 2 A . I said t. h i s as a general thing. yes, 3 Q. 0 i d you - 4 A . A 1 though, 1 was not. uncomfortable. H u t - 5 Q Did you e xpress your concern to the people: f> there at. the plant that they were not. handling it 7 well? H A . No . 9 Q . You just. kept, your mouth shut, and went on? 10 A. 1 wasn't being asked. And, after all, ] 1 they've been woiking in there day and out -- day in l 2 and day out with no report o any hea L th hazard* 1 3 and - 1 4 Q. Did you ask them when you were there about 15 health problems? J 6 A. No, I didn't.. t 7 Q . you just --- bark at Monsanto where you 1 B normally stayed, you never had heard anything about, 19 a health problem there at that plant? 20 A. That's right. I hadn't heard of a health 2 l problem at any of these places. 2 2 Q. Hut had you ever gone to any of these 2 3 places and attempted to determine whether they had 2 4 any health problems? 2 5 A . N o, I didn't. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019473 i ,i I Q . Wo L l , you h a v e n ' h hoard of! t hin , You 2 haven't -- you haven't, inquired about, any, either. 3 It'a just ~ 4 A . This i :i collect. 5 Q. Okay. When you went to the Westinghouse f, transformer plant in Sharon, Pennsylvania, did you 7 go out into the area where transformers were fl manufactured? 9 A, Yes, where they were being -- the corea 1 0 were being wound. Yes, I remember that. 1 1 Q. Did you observe t. heir use of PCFf'a? l 2 A. 1 don't think, actually, that r did. I 1 3 must, have passed some tanks where they were. I M didn't -- in that plant, the only thing I remember lb there was people winding the core and the coil of 16 transformers. I wasn't there when they wore being 1 7 a impregnated . 1 8 Q. Okay. What about, the transformer plant, 19 that General Electric had in Rome, Georgia? When 20 you were there, did you go into the area where .... 21 A. L wasn't in the plant there ever. 2 2 Q. Okay . So, you don't. know w h e t. h e r they were 2 3 us i ng thn m well or not? 2 4 A . No . I wasn't in the p1 a n t there, no. 2 5 Q Okay . What about the General Electric NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. HARTOLDMONO019474 .1H4 I transformer plant i. n Pittsfield, Massachusetts; did 2 you go into -3 A . I w a a not In t h o plant. 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. No, I waa in the of!t:Lce. 6 Q . What about the All is- Chalmers transformer 7 plant in Pittsburgh; did you go into the plant area? a A. No. I was not in the plant, no. 9 Q. What about the Wagoner Electric plant in 1.0 St. Louis; were you in the plant area? 1 l A. r was in that plant area ~~ 1 2 Q. Did you observe them 13 A. - at one time. 1 4 Q. Did you observe 1. hem using PCR'sV l 5 A. I think ho, yea. This was many years ago; 1 6 b vi t. I would think so, that - - there were some 17 transformers there in various stages, and I would i a think that, they were using PCH's at the Wagoner 19 plant. 2 0 Q. Did you observe anything about t.hesii- use of 21 PCB'a that gave you any concern? 2 2 A. No. No, f didn't. 2 3 Q. What about the Maloney transformer plant In 24 St. Louis; did you go into the transformer area? 2 5 A. No, 1 was never in that -- in that plant. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019475 I Q. 8 0 - 2 A . I'm not. sure i w <t si at. t h e i r office, even . 3 Q. Okay. So, the only transformer pI a n t you 4 can actually remember cj o .i n g to where you saw PC'R ' s 5 in use was the Maqoner plant in St. Louis? f. A. That they were actually in process of 7 filling transformers I'm trying to think. a Obviourly these other -- all of these other plants 9 used PCB'a and made transformers at one point or 1 0 another. They were filling transformers with PCB's 11 and 30 on and so forth. J 2 Q. Rut you didn't observe them doing it? 13 A. 1 didn't observe that in the transformer J 4 area. I have observed in the capacit.or area where 15 they were impregnating capacitors. It was - in one J 6 cage it was ~ 17 Q. Which plant was that? J 8 A. Well, Rlectric Utilities, I mentioned. 19 Q, Okay. Well, that's what I am saying. 20 A. That wan capacitors. 2 l Q. As I understand your testimony, you have 2 2 observed the use of I'CH'a by a customer of Monsanto 2 3 on one occasion for sure: That's the capacitors at 2.4 Bleotri c. Utilities in LaSalle? 2 5 A. No. There's was more than one occasion for NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019476 .1 Cl t I capacitors. 2 Q . What, o t. h e r s ? 3 A. Well, the E Lee trie Utilities at tali a LI. e. 4 That '8 one. b Q . You've t. old me about that. one. 6 A. I've seen the I was in the plant at G.E. 7 at Hudson Palls. 8 (). I thought you told me you didn't, actually 9 see them using the FOB'S at. that point. 10 A. Well, T saw t.he PCB ' s standing there, in l l vats. 1 2 Q. Okay . 13 A . That's - - that's .... is that, using it? 1. 4 Q. Well., t guess that's what I'm trying to 1 b find o u t. . I mean .... l 6 A. I would say that that is material in one 1 7 a t a q e or another of use. Ifl When when the impregnation goes on, 19 you see, this is under vacuum and pressure in a 2 0 closed reactor. 2 J Q, Were you able to see t.he HCH's in these 2 2 open vats at Hudson Falls? 2 3 A. At. Hudson Palls? Yes. 2 4 Q. Okay. 2 b A. Just, as though it was in this room here. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019477 *. O / I I t was a vat that - - well , maybe be from hero to 2 almost that wall long a n d abmi t. this wide; and these 3 power capacitors wore i n there. A nd this i. s wliat 4 was rolled, moved, into this c. yJiridric. a] 5 Impregnating chamber. 6 Now, what 1 saw was the capacitors 7 after they had been impregnated and they had been 8 cooled down; and they were Hitting t h e r e in these 9 vats, waiting to be soldered. 1 0 Q. Okay. Did you see any workmen actually l l working w i t h them? J 2 A . 1'here were workers in the plant, yes. 1 3 Q. Actually working with the P C 8'3 in the 1 4 capacitors? 1 8 A. Not the ~~ the particular -- what, do you 16 want to call it? -- these tanks that L' saw. We just 1 7 walked by them, and they were sitting in there. 18 Q. Okay. AnypLace else that you haven't told 19 me about where you've actually observed either 20 capacitor or transformer manufacturers working with 21 the PCft'a? 22 A. I'm trying to think. It's - it's been 23 y oa r3 ago . 24 A. Where -- where could I have -- I'm thinking 2 5 now about transformers. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019478 Joe I I believe no, no. E didn't gee 2 the* working with It. there. 3 I ' ve boon In the plant. Again, i. t wag 4 not operating; 3 o, 3 didn't see them working with it. ri at A r o v o x . T h a t ' a capacitors. 6 Q . Rut. you didn't - - 7 A. E ' v e a non their facilities, but it was not R in operation. They weren't working with it. 9 Q. So, you've told me, as Car as you can J 0 recall, places where you've actually seen PCB's 1 1 being used? 1 2 A . This i s r i q h t. . 1.1 Q . Okay . Did you ever visit 14 A . 1 don ' t mean t. o say that 15 everything. E'vo done my best to answer you. 16 Q . That's all I can ask. l 7 A. Yeah . 1 B Q. Did you ever visit the Monsanto plant, s 19 where PCB's wore actually produced? 2 0 A. Yes . 21 Q. Did you visit both the Anniston, Alabama, 2 2 plant -- 2 3 A. Yea, both. 2 4 Q. and the 2 b A. I've been in both plants. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019479 1 Q - - and tho K r u m m r l c. h plant? 2 A . Correc1. 3 Q. Tell me what, you observed about Monsanto's 4 I? C 9 |>r o d u c 11 o n In t h o Krumnr ich plant? b A . I'm q oing back years ago, and I'm going to 6 make a general observation. Years ago chemical 7 plants were not. as clean as they are today. 1 think 8 we .ill know this. 9 The Aroclor plant at Krummrich was l 0 outdoors. I was aware Aroclor was being made. 1 1 There were tanks and stills there that were at 12 higher temperatures. The equipment and the 1 3 chloririators, et. cetera, were - were not cool and 14 idle. They wore in operation. Hvon though this was 1.5 out of doors, I was aware I was around the odor of 16 Aroclor. J 7 1 will say t.hi s : 1 was there in more 1.8 recent yoars, probably around 1968. And by that 19 time, things had improved by way of cleanliness. 1 2 0 think that's a general observation. 2 1 Q. When were vou first there, the first time 2 2 you were describing for mo, about what period of 2 3 time ? 24 A. I would probably p ut this sometime in the l 9 5 0 ' s . In the l 9 5 0 ' s, sometime around there. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019480 .i' u 1 RfitMiise I would qo ho the laboratory at t h o 2 Kruiirich plant; and there'a where I saw Arcelor 3 used, tested, and so on and so forth. In the 4 laboratories, yes. b Q Did you also q o out. into the plant, area 6 where it was blmj manufactured? 7 A. 1 said, yes, 1 was out there. 8 Q . Okay. Did you observa any special 9 precautions taken by the workmen to avoid contact 1 0 with Aroclora or any precautions taken by Monsanto J 1 to keep the workmen from coming into contact with l 2 Aroc lot s ? J 3 A. I did not. I observed hard hats. I wore a l 4 hard hat. I observed gloves being worn as one would 1 5 wear qoinq wear climbing onto a tank car or - or 16 going up iron stairs, at cetera, and an iron 1 7 railinq, and maybe rolling some drums. 18 These gloves were not there for the 1 9 purpose of covering the hand skin from the Aroc. lor. 2 0 Neither did E have anything. E had goggles was - 2 1 this was standard practice. You qo into a plant., 2 2 they give you protective goggLes; yes, E had this. 2 3 And these are safety goggles, for .innlance, o r 24 glasses. That was a requirement when you wnt into 2 b a chemical plant.. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019481 1 At one point. In ti*o, whe thor you went 2 to the PCB area or not., they would give you a smock .1 to wear; but you had that whether you went to 4 Aroc 1 or or not. 5 Q. Anything o13 o ? 6 A. They wear safety shoes, but not because of 7 the PCB. They didn't want any heavy thing to break 8 their toes. 9 0. Talking about ateel-toed shoes? 1 0 A. 8 teel-toed 3 h o e s , yea. 1 1 Q . A n y t. h 5 n g else? 12 A . No. C ' d any that's it. ] 3 Q. Did you ace any changes between the way the 14 workmen wore exposed or not exposed to PCB'a when 1 8 you went back to the Krurnwrich plant in the late 16 60's, other than the fact It was cleaner and you 1 7 couldn't smell it? 1 8 A, No, I couldn't see any difference in their 19 attire, no. 20 Q. What about the Anniston, Alabama, plant.; 21 when did you visit that plant? 2 2 A . I visited Anniston, Alabama - 1 would say 23 the first time was in 19 - - maybe '40 or '47, 2 4 n a m e t. h i n g like this, 2 <3 Q. And what did you observe there about NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019482 .i * / .1 1 prociutiona provided by Mona .into for the workmen? 2 A . H a s e n t. .i a ] 1 y t h e same as I -just. said for l h e 3 Krummrich plant. 4 Q. You didn't, notice any -- 5 A. There are no special protective - - they 6 didn't, wear aprons and - -- and protective garments. 7 They were attired In their khaki. Some even wore 8 the supervisor, he wore a white shirt. -- I don't 9 know why --- and khaki pants. He didn't -- at times, 1 0 didn't wear a hard hat, either. t l Q. Were there special uniforms that Monsanto 1 2 required a]] its people to wear? You were supposed 13 to wear a khaki - 1 4 A. Yes. 115 Q. ..... uniform to work? 16 A. Yes. This is a thing that, whether you 17 were in the laboratories or Ln the plant, you had ) 8 these uniforms to wear. It. was no longer that you 19 came there in your street clothos. You wore those 2 0 uniforms; and they were laundered by the company 2 l and/or furnished and laundered by the company and 2 2 were changed once a week or twice a week, whatever. 2 3 11! needed, If there was a spill, they would be 2 4 c h a n g e d at. that. time. 2 r) Q. Okay. So, the workmen had special clothes NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019483 .5 .1 1 when they came to work: to change into? 2 A. Yes. They - they didn't, work in their 3 street clothes. Let me say. Those days w e ro o v o r 4 with, yes. 6 Q . Okay. Any other precautions that were 6 t.i ken with re (yard to exposure to PCB's? 7 A . Not. that. 1 know of, no, uh-uh. 8 Q. The company Laundered these clothes for the 9 workmen? to A. Yes. 1 1 C>. You can't think of any ot.her precautions 12 that you observed being taken by Monsanto to protect ) 3 its workmen from exposure to PC'll's? 14 A. No. I never saw anybody wear a mask or 3o If. f orth . } 6 Q. 1 want, to focus your attention now on the l 7 matters that took place after t h o problems of PCR'3 18 came to liqht in the ] 9 6 0 ' s . Do you know what. 19 I'm - 2 0 A . In other words, you're, after, certainly, 21 post I960; you 'ru up to 1968, would you say? 2 2 Q. Yes. T n the period of time where. 2 3 A. All right. I'm with you. 2 4 Q . - where there comes a -2 Vi A . Rnvi. ronaenta I. concern. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019484 -> 'i I Q. Yiis. 2 A . Ye*. A33 right. 3 Q. Now, you wiit'o Involved In gome of the 4 responses that Monsanto made to these concerns, were 5 y ou not? f> A . To what, concerns? 7 Q. The environmental concerns, the concerns 0 about the potential hazards of PCS'a. 9 A. I responded to who? I was -1 0 Q. You were involved in some of the response 1 1 that Monsanto made to those concerns. 1? A. To the environmental people? 1 3 Q. Yes, the concerns -3 4 A. No. No, I wasn't.. t r) t wa3 aware of what was going on; but 3 6 I don't recall responding, in any significant, way, 17 directly to the environmental people. No, E don't 3 fl remember that. 1 9 Q. No. I'm sorry. That isn't, what 1 meant, to 2 0 ask. 2 1 You were involved in a part, of the 2 2 r o s p on s o that Monsanto made to those problems and 2 3 concerns, weren't you? 2.4 A. Actually, I wasn't. 2.0 Now, 7 want, you to consider something NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019485 i 'j I hero. I rot l rod in 19/4. Now, you retire at f> 55 . 2 In companies, they tend to put you on the shelf, may .3 I say, certainly five yodrs prior to retirement, 4 maybe earlier than that. Now. by and large, what 9 you're <j o 1 n g to run into in this period of! time, r. f. w a a .... if you'll allow me to way it. in quotes - on 7 the shelf. H I was not. in the directive! line. This 9 does not moan that T did not know. in general, what 1 0 was going on; that I d:i d not. maybe talk to someone 1.1. about t hi :? . But when things were handled -- and 17 you're up t. o 19 - - would you want. to go t.o '7 0? 13 Q We 1 l , y o u t nL1 me. I 4 A . Let. ' s go to J970. i r> MR. CRAWPOROj Weil, Mr. Renignus, 1 6 he's got a document there that I'm sure - 17 THK WETNESS: I know he has. J 0 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, why don't you let. 19 him ask you about it; and then we'll move on a ?0 little faster- here? 21 THK WITNESS: 1 still haven't gotten 2 2 to say what Z wanted to explain. 73 Q. (Hy Mr. I.ac.ey) Well, why don't, you go 7 4 ahead and explain what you want to explain? 2h A . You know Hill I'appaqrorge? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019486 1 Q. C think you asked me yesterday. [ ' vn hoard 2 the nai, but. I've not met the man. 3 K . Oh, I didn't know t his. 4 Q. Yeah . 5 A . 1 didn't know t h i 3 . 6 Q I've not yet. met. the man 7 A . He was called to h a n d L o these things -fl Q And ..... 9 A . - specifically. And he did. 1 0 Q When he came in. you, as you say, got put 1 l the shelf? ) 2 A. No, 1 don't nay because Pappageorge l 3 .arrived. I'm trying to tell you that [ was on the 14 shelf somewhat. 1 already told you that. I spent, a 15 lot of my time traveling ex-C/.S. and this sort of 1 6 thing. 1 7 May I s ea the document? 18 Q. Surely. I've got a document here. Ct'3 19 numbered 508 through 511. And it's a letter that 20 appears to be dated Aut7ust 6, 1970, on Monsanto 21 Company letterhead 2 2 A . fJh - h u h . 2 3 Q , - and signed by you. For some reason, X 2 4 don't have any addressee on the letter, I don't 2 5 know who it. wan sent. to. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019487 I A . Oh, that ho I ps. 2 Q . Yeah, that. ] a a b j g help, i nn 1 t. it? .3 A. Well --4 Q. Did you normally, when you had .letters 5 typed up, .show on there who you sent it to? 6 A. This one went to you right now. And we're 7 talking about what we talked the other day, 1016. B This, 1 think, was left open so that 9 people'3 names would be stamped on because this 1 0 t. h i n g received wide circulation - l l Q . (/ h -huh. 1 2 A . ..... ex-Ll.S. - I mean ex-Monsanto. 13 Q Okay . 1 4 A . This went, as an information pi ece to our 15 A rocLor 1242 customers. It compares 10 16 w i t h ] 6 A roc J or 12 4 2 -- 17 Q . N o w 18 A. --- which was an assignment 1 had. 19 Q . Okay. 2 0 THE WITNESS: And what's the date of 21 that? 2 2 MR. CRAWFORD: August 6th, 1970. 21 A. ALL right. That is approximately when 2 4 Aroclor 10)6, I think we will find, was being 2 5 introduced, 1970. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019488 1 Q. (Hy Mr. Lacey) And you wore Involved In 2 that, were you not? 3 A . Yes, J wa . T was the one r ea l )y involved 4 In covering this with our capacitor customers. 5 {> . You were involved in trying to get them to 6 take on that product? 7 A. T was - yes. 1 was my duty was to show 9 them the difference in It and that we say there is 9 essentially no difference; that, if you people are l 0 wilting to accept this, it's a stop in the right 1 1 direction to he1p satisfy the environmentalists; if l 2 you're w i. L l i n <j to a c c e p t this, Monsanto is willing 13 to make it and supply it. in replacement for 1242 if 14 you so approve of it. This is what it was. 1 h J was giving them specifically - - 16 there's a specification, isn't tliore, a comparison 1 7 of those specifications? 18 Q. Yes. There's attached a specification 19 for - 2 0 A. 1016? 21 Q. -- 1016 and for 124 - 2 2 A. 1242. 2 3 Q. - 1242. 2 4 A . This is exactly what, this thing is, yes. 2 5 Q. Now, I've got another --- what appears to be NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019489 .4 1 1 t another copy oE that letter -- and I want you to 2 conpare it and let me know it it is Document 3 15504 through 15508, that apparently Indicates a 4 copy of that letter was sent to Mr. Hobert. E. Abbe, 5 A B H E. r A . "Abbe" at G.K. 7 Q . "Abbe"? With G.E.? a A. All right. It says here, "You requested 9 this amount, and the" -- "the samples are being sent i o to you . " i i And Dr. Munch had analyzed -- or had 12 tried this in our laboratory with experimental 13 capacitors and found them satisfactory. l 4 Q. Okay. Dr. Munch was a scientist there that lb was -- t 6 A . Yeah . 1 7 Q. He was developing different dielectric 18 fluids in response to 19 A . Yea, he was. And this was one -- 20 Q. This was not the only dielectric fluid? 2 1 A . Oh, no. We were trying additional things 2 2 to this . This is the same thing here. 2 3 Q Yeah. Appears to be the same letter, does 2 4 it not? 2 b A. This is exactly the same thing, yes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019490 i i I Q Now, lot: in e show you 2 A . And t. h i s is - see, it. has Abbe at. CJ . K . , .3 whLch would have been the Lanjos t user. 4 If they weren't going t o u s e i t. , t h e 5 thing wouldn't go at all. They did use it and we 6 went to that. but. it didn't, satisfy the 7 environmentalists. 8 Q. Okay. I.et. me show you another letter. 9 Document 812 through 516, dated February 18th, 1971, J 0 and signed by you. Is that, another one of your t l L e t h e r s involving this 1016 -- 1 2 A . v e n , it. is. 13 Q - problem'? 1 4 A . Yes, it is. 1 5 Now, this gives more information. Our l 6 laboratory now, in '71, has completed Life tests 1 7 It takes time, you know. This is our additional 18 information. And, yos, this is a LI of tills, the 19 results of life t.e t.s - 20 Q. Okay . 2 1 A . -- giving these people the benefit, of what. 2 2 we have observed. 2:1 Q . And then I have what I believe is another 2 4 copy of that letter. Document 15696 through 15701, 2 5 indicating a copy of that, letter was sent to General NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019491 Vw t KL(*ctric at Hudson Fa L 1.3, Now York. 2 A That ' s Abbe aqain. .1 Q. Okay. Well, I don't see his name on that. 4 Wou 1 d the Hudson Kails, New York, be Mr. Abhe? 5 A . Well, it means that Location, yes. Abbe 6 was the - - Abbe was the direct -- the director c>f 7 materials. He would bo the one wo would contact. a Q On the. second page of that letter, if you 9 would turn -1 0 A . This one? 11 u. Yes, that letter. 1 2. in the fourth paragraph from the end. 11 you say, "We have an extensive rosearch protjram on 1 4 materials for use in capacit. or dielectric systems." l 5 Do you soo t ha t - ~ 1 6 A . Where do I see that? On the second page? l 7 Q. Yes. Right there. i a A . Oh. "We would be most pleased to have you 19 visit" -- no 2 0 Q. No . 21 A . Oh, all right.. I'm sorry. 2 2 "We have an extensive research program 21 on materials for use in capacitors die" yes. 2 4 Wo -- at th13 point in timo Munch had set up a 2l. laboratory facility to impregnate and life test NELLMCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019492 i o / t experimental possible replacements llor I'CH'a , And 2 this waa one of them. .3 Q. When - now, t h i. a actually was a pen 4 prod ire t., though, wasn't, it? 5 A . Oh, yes. This is a PCD, and this Is why it 6 didn't, fly. To 7 Q, When -0 A. Go ahead. 9 Q. When did Dr. Munch first develop a non-PCB 10 replacement fluid for capacitors? 1 1 A. I don't, know exactly when; but it is in 12 this time frame when we are looking for J 3 rep 1 acement.s , whether M- 1 6 or something else. 1 4 Q. Did Monsanto seek to acquire patents on any 1 f> of the replacement fluids developed by Dr. Munch? Ifi A. Yes. On -- on ono, yes. 1 7 Q . And t. h a t. was one that, you thought, had great, IH promise? 19 A . I didn't. 2 0 Q. YOU didn't? 21 A . No . 22 Q . Well, why go t.o the effort, of seeking a 2 3 patent on it, then? 2 4 A. Well, don't, ask me. 2 5 Q. Okay. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019493 > *i \ I A . I don' t mean to be - - okay. 2 Q. Did I) r . Munch think it. had some p r o hi i s e ? 3 A. Why don't you ask him? 4 Q- Okay . You don't know anything abou t. t. h a t. ? 5 A . !> u r e , I know about it. 6 Q. Wei 1 , tell me what, you know about, it.. 7 A . Well., you .raked for one with a patent a application; so, we'll talk about t. hat. one. 9 This was a hydrocarbon base. Now, 1 0 early on, if 1 can remember, yesterday we talked 1 l about dielectric constant, mineral oil, 2. This is 1 7. 2. And we also saw PCB at b. 13 Now, we have a hydrocarbon base that 1 4 does not. give the capacitance for the kind of 15 capacitors that we're going to have to make, which 16 are mo tor-run a and ballast.. 17 Now, one way of increasing capacitance ia is t.o add what Munch has patented. You can read in 19 the literature. It's a diphenyl aulfone, which has 2 0 a high dielectric constant. 21 Now, there's two things about this. 2? It's q o i n g to cost, more than PCB. It i a q o i n g to b r 2 3 a I o a s y-1 y p e fluid. 2 4 Q . A what? 2 5 A. bossy, b O - - it's going to have dielectric NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019494 I Losses higher - 2 Q. Okay . 3 A. -- than one wants to deal with. 4 Now, this was submitted to Che General b Electric. Company and other people. And the response 6 was along this lino you are aware nothing is 7 going to fly in this business unless G . K . adopts 8 it. Wo can assume this. 9 Their reaction to this was: "We have 10 enough trouble; with lossy dielectrics that we are 1 1 already trying to find as replacement for PCD, and 12 wo object to this Cor that reason." They were not 1 3 interested. It. did not go coimnercial . t 4 Now - - lb Q. Could it have been used as an alternative l fi capacitor Ciuid in capacitors that were then being 1 7 filled with PCD'a? 18 A. Could it have been? 19 Q. Yea. 2 0 A. Dr. Munch, in his laboratory, made 2 l capacitors th.it he thought were all right. 2 2 Q. They worked? 2.1 A. it could they worked, granted. 2 4 Q . The problem was that you couldn't, get G . E . 2*5 to buy - NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019495 4u- I A . TO U3(! It. 2 Q. - t. obuy t h i a fluid instead of PCH'a? .1 A . Yes. Of Instead ofother t h L n g 3 , what 4 they're using now. b Q. Were you ever involved in any discussions 6 about simply ceasing to sell P C n ' 3 so that cl . k . 7 would use other fluids? 8 A, Not in those terms, no, it I understand 9 what, you said. I'm not sure I did. l 0 Q. Well, Let me make it - 1 1 A. Let's explore what you want. l 2 Q. Let me make it clear. ) 3 A. Yes. 14 Q. Surely. ] r. G.K., as I understand what you're 16 telling mo, basically said, " n ' d rather buy your 1 7 PCH ' a than this alternative that Or. Munch has come l 8 up with.'' 19 A. No, I'm not saying that at all. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. What 1 said -- and their laboratories were 2 2 closed doors at this point in time. They 3 a id, "We 2 3 all" - "arr already working with 1o s s e y dielectrics 2 4 a 3 a possible r e p l ac e m o t . " 2 b 1 know what they had in mind. They NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019496 I had i. n mind p h t h a l a t e ea ter, specifically d ioc ty l 7 phthalate, which they were working on. And they 3 began the life teat in 1972. 4 And J guess we're in that framework of 5 time, somewhere .around there. 6 Now, they had come to Monsanto and 7 asked Monsanto to suppLy dioctyl phthalat.e. Prior a to that and along at this point in time, Monsanto 9 had sampled G.B. with SantisIzer 711. Now, to make 1 0 this simple, S5 anti sizer 711 is a phthalate ester l i just like D 0 P L s a p h t h a l a t e ester. J 2 You don't want the whole explanation, 13 is that why you're s m i. Ling? 14 Q. No. Go ahead. l 5 A. don't know what to say. 1 6 Q. No. No. Just go ahead. You're -- you're 17 explaining. Go ahead and finish explaining. i a A . Well, do you want the explanation? 19 Q. Ye*. Absolutely. ?.o A . Real 1y ? 2 1 Q. Yes . 7.2 A . ,f thought you were - startr.d smiling 2 2 0 . No . '? 4 A . If you're sincere, 3' 11 take the time 2`5 Q Go ahead and explain i t. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019497 iu / I A . All right, Monsanto had Sant ia izcr 711, 2 and that ' a a phtha1 ate eater with a - one chain of 3 a oven carbons and another chain oC 11 carbons. 4 Di octyl phtha late has one chain of eight, car bon a and 5 another chain of: eight carbons. Roth arc phtha l a he 6 esters. You can't. - - they 're like two peas in a 7 pod . 0 We offered Sant, is i 2e.r 711 t.o G . K . , 9 which we made. We weren't making OOP. Later they 1 0 would ask us t.o do so. We didn't.. 1 1 Rut they did not accept Monsanto's 1 2 711. The reason: It was a tick worse on dielectric 13 constant, not a great thing. It cost more. And 1 4 that, is important. 1 b The other thing is they knew they 16 could get OOP on -- on the market, like a commodity, 1 7 rook and qravel. And this is what, they were looking l 8 for, Roth products had the same limitations of 1 9 being an eater, subject. t.o hydrolysis and 2 0 oxidation. So, why should they go with what 21 Monsanto offered? 2 2 They were looking at. 1") 01`, and this was 2 3 in th i s time frame. 2 4 Q. You were offering them alternatives in the 2`i 1971 time frame? NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019498 a 1 A. To PCR; yes. And this isn't tho only 2 alternative that was offered. Another alternative 3 was another hydrocarbon, which was later adopted, 4 that type thing, by West, in gho use, which they had 5 researched probably prior to this time we had 6 sampled. 7 You can say, "Well, why didn't, they 8 adopt that?" Well, ours - I'm talking about 9 isopropyl biphenyl -- ours was more expensive than 10 they felt their economics they adopted 1. 1 eventually - ray understanding, they now use 1 2 something coming from this area, a hydrocarbon, 1 3 quote, "isopropyl biphenyl." They call it that, t 4 it's an off-stream from a petvoleu# hydrocarbon. IS And the point, to all of this is and lf> I want to make Lt the time that PC8 manufacture 1 7 terminated was the exact time when CJ . R. went to 18 market with dioctyl phthaLato. Monsanto always said 1 9 as soon as anyone --- we, anyone -- on the outside 20 has a substitute, out; because the company was 2 1 ordered to shut down. The only reason they were 2 2 making it was because of the insistence and the plea 2D of the electrical industry and the KFA. 2.4 Q. When - - when had Monsanto decLded that it 2 S would stop producing I'CH's as soon as there was an NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019499 i us I altornative? 2 A. As soon us there was an alternative and 3 G.B. stopped buying PCB, that was the end of it. 4 Q. Well, let me - let me separate those two 5 apart for just a second. 6 Axe you telling me that, by 1970 7 Monsanto was committed to stop selling PCR'3 as soon 8 as there was an alternative product for use in 9 capacitors and transformers? 1 0 MR. CRAWFORD: If you know. 1 l A. Ct -1 2 THE WITNESS: I do know. 1 1 A . you've asked t he question. To my 1 4 knowledge, this is it.: The very top of Monsanto - 15 and this Ls in response to the YDSHO thing. 1 6 0. (By Mr. l'.acey) YDS HO, you're talking about I. 7 the Japanese - ] n A . Yes. 19 Q. -- Incident? 20 A. When they shut down in Japan, that meant, 2 l our plant shuts down in Japan, too, not only the 2 2 Japanese. 2.T Q . W h e ti did that, h a p p e n ? 2 4 A. i: t - it was around 1968 or somewhere in 2 5 t. hat. period. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019500 I _ So, Monsanto':; t'CR plant in .f a pan w a s s h ti t 7. down i n the late Si x t j cn V 1 A . 0 h , yes. 4 Q. Okay. 'j A . 1 won l d s <i y so. f\ Q Ok ay . 7 A . Tl never really q o t. noing , 1) e cause I was 11 a e n t o v e r there to try to market and hod no success. 9 0 . A n d s h o i t .1 y after that., t h e Japune h e - L 0 A . They had no time for the Japa to life test 1 1 a n d a 1 1 that. And shortly after it, boom, the l2 e m p o re r you know, they shut down their own place. i :i l.hey ' r-(i cjoincj to shut no. Ther c ' no point, in our 1 4 try inn to f L q h t t.ho Hmporor of Japan. 1 h () . okay. 1 6 A . Now, 1 et. ' s q e t back here. The YU5H0 t.h i ri(| 1 7 is I. ho thlnq of: very pro non need inf iuonco on PC 13. IB I'm not. say.inq it. was fully understood. It was a 19 marked i n E1unm:o, ?.o The directive, as i understand this 2 l Paul nenlcjnus apeak i nq we are maki. nq someth 1 nq 7.2 that .in not. wanted. Simple to understand? 7..\ Q . Ye s . 2 4 A . Cl e t o ut. . 2L> Now, Monsanto proceeds to do thin. It NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019501 I w a s iv 1 t d i f f: i < u 1 t i n t h o n o n e 1 o r t r i c a l b o c a u a o the re 2 were subst i tail. o n - o ) suli.nt. i Lutes c o u ] d e a s i J v bo 1 prov Lded . 4 T n t h o e 1 e c t. r i c. a .1 i ndu a try a nd t h r l5 reason I ' m to l 1 i n q y o u t h i a - I q o t. a p h o ne call 6 from G . K . " 1)0 n ot 1 e t. M o n a a n 1. o t. a k e p r o c i p i t o u s 7 action to S t) u t U 3 down as ha 3 been a l re ad y don o L n fl n i.) n t: i e.c t. r i cat . ft 9 My r e s p o n se t o this is : "1 know what l 0 L t in e ana . Y o u d o n ' t have to tell me that it runs 1 1 1. h < ' r ,i s k - i t y an can' t. get rcn ' :i for capacitors l 2 a n <1 t r a n a r o r mors, you ' rn qoi.ru; ho say It's going to 1 '1 run the risk of shutting down power ?ui pp J .i e s . " And I. 4 T bo l love it would have. It would have b o e n a v o r y 1 S serimiB thing t o d o . 1 6 They did not h a v e a f: i re re s i. a ta n t 1 / r p .1 a c v. in e n t. . We k n o w t. his,. W e ' r e talking ht:rt> l fl about of torts to find replacements. None, of: th(i so. } 9 were fire resistant. Now - 2 0 Q. Thor o p l a c o m e nts t hoy ultimately use d 2 ) weren1t fire resistant, either, wore they V 2 2 A . That1 s true, too. 2 3 t> Okay . G o a head . 2 4 A . Now, they pie aded, "Don 1 I: hh u t dow n . 0 o n 2 li s h vi t. u s off . " NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019502 r said, "You're; la I king ho l. h? wrong quy . You better- got vour very t op people and come Into Ht. fiouid and talk ho the ' r r y hop poop I o nh Monsanto." ')' h i fl a<: t u a I I y hap p e n e d , T h i r: , they did. 7 Q . Who did they talk t. o V (3 A . They 1 n; not speaking only tor t h e in s e 1 v e s . 9 They ' ip fi peaking for the .industry. And because of i n this, and the Government, al.so I'm saying the l i KHA -- it's my u nd e r s I. a n d i n q that, the HI PA a iso said, i "fiook, if I- h i n m o,i ns shut down power supply in this 1 3 country, you're going to have to find some way to l 4 p roe oed w i. I. hou t do i ng h hat. " ]l. 'Phi e n r o m e a h hi i S P i t. a a 1. i o n : A g r e e m e n l 1. 6 by all concerned to p c o e e o d o n h h e p r e in i s e 1. h a t 1 7 r. a p a c .i t. o r s and t. r a n fi f o i in e r a a r c hi e rmel. i ca i J y L H sealed. And they c ontlmifi d t o s u p p l y , pond i ng a 1 9 rep]acement. 0 Now, Mon !. a ri t o ti a d t h e s o + hi nq s . 'J' hi e r 2 1. were other things. Non e o L h h o in f 1 c w f: o r u c . A n d , 7 2 a a I s ay, w h e n t h < a h u t. d o w n r i: a 1 1 y c t me wu r< when 2 1 G . K . inn o n n c ed a nd d i d t/ o 1; o ma r k o h. w i t h 0 0 P . And 2 4 l ha t ' h t li e end of i t and Ihe a n n w e T to i t . 2 0 Q . Ok ay . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019503 I A - Tli a 1 'a t h e a e q u o n e o of it. 2 Q. a o , wlicn f i . K s a .id, " W o ` t e no 1 o n o ! q o i nq .3 t o need -- nond PCH's. Wo no Longer" - A . That. wa n the end o f it. 9 Q .. *? want to buy them," then Mona uni. o a a i d , h "We 're go i ntj to ahnt down production"? 7 A . Thai: 'a my und e v a t a ml 1 n g of: it. a Q Okay . And the very product, a that were U c cl 9 L n c .v pa c i. to i a and transformers in l i o u oil P (3 fl ' a wore J o a J r v a d y a v a i 1 a b J e i n ] 9 7 0 , weren't, t. h e, y V 11 A . Yea, they were. 1 2 Q Okay l 3 A . Yea, tli oy we re . 1 4 Q A n d had Merman lo stopped making PCM ' M i n l 'i 1 9 7 0 , t h e t r a n a t o r in ft r and capacitor poop in would 1 6 have: gone t. o t. h e. very p t o d u c t a they c: v e n l. u a M y d l 7 go t o i. n Lieu o 1: 1? C. R ' a? i n A T h i rs i s n ' L. e x a c l. 3 y right. No , I d o ri ' t. 19 agree with t h L a . 2 0 Q What wonJ d they have gone to? 2 l A They - - Wft i 1. , a 1 L right. Y ou 're t h ink! ?:* t. h i s t h rough f OT y o u i self, a n d .1 d o n ' t. mean to q 2 3 i n t: o a d ft b a h o o n t h i a sub j ee 1. . ? 4 v> I i u 8 t want. t o know y o u r l. v. n t 1 III o n v ?r) A t agree 0 0 l> w ,i a a v a i i a b l ft . C a cj r e ft 1: li .i NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019504 <t , 4 l isopropyl bi. phenyl was available. T. <t i 3 a g c o. with ?. your thinkinq - bee a u r: e Iherc is a big void in what, :j you are saying bocan so these things wore not tos tod 4 and probed and proved nut - that it would be b tons i. b l.o( sato I.o go to market with HOP, 6 If you think it was an easy thinq to 7 do term l no this, f assure yon It was not. And after a DO - G. K . did q o to market, with OOP and Monsanto <) shut oft! - - did stop produc i.mj P c A, I can assure you i n there were some com pan ion fiat, on their face because 11 they were not able - they no longer had the PCB. i ?. They had nothing. And that, was a very difficult 1 :l situation. We ..... wo. were railed things tit at weren't ] 4 t. o o n i o e . i s Q. I see. I m/i ' t. it a fact that the decision l 6 of Monsanto to keep manufacturing PCR ' s a I: tn r it had 1 7 a .1 t. e mat i v e p ro dnets a n d o t. h r r a h a d alt. e r n a t. i v e i. a p rod lie t S a v a i table w a 3 influenced by the far t t h 1 9 Monsanto made a ] o t. o f money selling PCH's 7 7.0 A . No , i. t was n o L . No, s i. r . ?. 1 Q Had noth .i n q t o do wit. h .i t. ? 2 ). A . No , a ir, i. t ha d noth iiuj I.o do with i. t . 7: 1 Q Ok a v 7.4 A . No , sir. i t d i d n o t . 2 ';> Q I.e t. m e a s k y o u about your work with t. h e NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019505 1 1 A in o r i. c .i n N a I. i. o n a L 9 t a n d a r d s L ns t i tut o C o m in i, t. tei; 2 C-1 07 . 3 A . Yes. T ti i M now, von 'to. up to 19 7 (l . 4 Well, that wag published in '72 or '73. Thoro 5 wa f. ME. CRAWFORD : Let ...... lot him a :k you 7 i (1110 3 t Ion so we can 9 T fJ R W 1 T N K 9 9 i 1 t. h o u g h t h e d i d . 9 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, h <5 ' 3 (jot a 1 0 docuincri l. there that he'll probably want, to ask you l l about. 1 2 Q . (Hy Mr. baccy) Yon were the chairman of 1 3 the s hinr i mj commi tteo on the 1 4 A. Thin i*i what 1 was qoinq to say. l ?> Q. Okay. Tell me about that. J6 THE WITNESS: Now 1 now should 1 l 7 pro c ao d ? 1 fl MR. CRAWFORD: Well, yen. 19 Q . (n y Mr. f, a c e y ) Y e s , 2 0 A. T hate to take the time. Wo 1 re qo.inq l. o 21 have to jo soon. 7? ME. Ol.KSKN: That's the. problem. 2 3 There's a half hour, Wo don 'I. know how much more 2 4 you want, him t. o do and - 7. S MR. f.ACEY: Well, l don't know It' NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019506 1 i h I we're (jo i nq I; o make i t oi' not:. All we can do is l 2 can ask the. cj u e:(t. i o n :: a n ci h o can a n a w c: r t h e m and 3 we'll 3sr i. f: wo (jot t hroiujh it all. [ don't know 4 what, to do. b MK. Hi A W F OKI) : Okay. l,f:t. ' r: q o . 6 MR. LAORV: I'm askinq them. 7 A. f was elected to be chairman. Now, an .1 rt a L r a d y told y o n , I w a a on t h xi a h e l f: at t h i a t i. m x . q Q. (Hy Mr. I.acey) Okay. 1 0 A, Rxcrtpt I did know people. The transformer 1 } in a k e r s and the c a p a ci tor makers, I knew those p ao p1e 1 '7. t h v o u q li 1. h e y o a r 3 . ] 3 0 W e r e you an in f1 u e n t i a .1 person with t. hose l 4 peo p l e ? 1 b A . They didn't di s J ike me. 1 e t. m e say. 1 b Q - Okay . Whu t you -- what y o u h a d to say - 1 7 A . They knew me. And T was u s d t o o i q a n i v.e l 0 thlg thlnq. A l Salnxai* at ANSI had k he Government 1 9 back 3 ncj, the f unda and support; but he didn't, know 2 0 who to invite. I knew this. And, so, we drew up a 2 1 list of people who should all be invited. And this 2 2 was very broad representation. 2 1 Q . Now, Mr, SttLi?dr Was with the N a t j o n a l > 4 K I. a ctri c a l M.in u I: a e I: u r era A u s o <: i. a t i o n , c o r r e c I: ? 2 b A, Hul. he was also secret, ary of .... he was also NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019507 i l w L 1; h ANSI. 2 Q . Okay. 3 A . On t h i n - .i n l h in a r o a a n d in h o in f' in 4 some other -jrisas . s 0 Now, l. hc N a 1 i o n a 1 K i e r t r i r a l M a n u f a c t vi r e r ft fi A a a o c. i a h i. o n i a a lit'ado organization of people ; t Ike, 7 W O ft t j n q h CUI3P ii II 8 General KJectric ami A 1 .1 i K C h a 1 in e r ft 8 and Ma lonny and o 1: h e v a ? 9 A . Yen. W h err a a A N 8I is rea1 1y - - represent. 9 1. 0 (I o v n r n m e n K , o r<ja n in.Ui.ons, and ovorybody, t h e FDA 1 1 a n d t h o Rut t'd ii Hi. iindards and t h r> K )' A and th o - - l 2 1; h e - (VP r y b od V i n 0 . Okay , 1 4 A . - indu n t. / y , i n h l .1 t n l. i o n ids, u n i v o r h i i. i e h , 1 8 a n d 9 o o n and a it r. o r t h . Yea,, h. his i a <: o r roo t 1 f. Q Now , t. h e V. h i h ft t o e r i ri q c. o ui mi t t e e for t. t) e 1 7 A N 8 r C 1 11 7 c/r o u p , y o ii .1 e L u a 1 L y r. h a i. r o d t. h a t i n r o m in i t t c e , d i d n ' t you ? 19 A . T h i a i a what, you' re roadinq; so, y o a 2 0 Q I m e a n , i ;i i h a f a c. r u ra 1.c- ? 2 l A . Th o y on 1. led mo o lx , no. r was r. \\ii i r ;n a n 2 7 of t. hi? ;! t e e ri n q c o in in .i i. t o o . 3. 1 Q . Vila . 3 4 A . !: x c. u ri e mo. Yon , T ii a l. , v o n . 2 r> Q . And wha 1. did that invo 1 v e ? - NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019508 I A . As I- a l rfidiiy said, ,i s chairman of tho 2 steering committee, i participated there in getting .3 this thing organized and getting it together (J n 4 beha If of Al Salazar, to get. thin thing going. 5 Q. Now, the artij.il chairman of the. committee ft a ft it. 1 i nal wound up - 7 A . R i g h I.. . a Q was Mr. P a ppag e.or go , wasn't i t. 7 9 A . You're rl g ht. ) 0 Q S o ..... 11 A . N o t in e . 1 7 Q . Ha, a Monsanto man chaired both the I. 3 stofifi iig r o in in i 11 e a -~ ) 4 A . Y o u a s r. right. l 5 Q - - and the c o m in i t t. e o ? 1 6 A . H u t the g u y - okay. I, e t. ' s J e t t h c> glory 1 7 to the - you ' to right. i a Q. What? 1 9 A. You're right, but I told you t. licit f was on 2 0 the shelf and Pappageorgo won put in there as ? 1 chairman. He didn't do the active work, T assure 22 you . 2 3 () . W h o did t. h e active work? 2 4 A. Well, the composition of these are given 2S in .in those tiroahiu es there. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019509 * I H I Thorn was a separate group I'or 2. capacitors . Why? He can s c* they were capaci t.o r 3 people and know what. thny could do i n thn capacitor 4 area . f> There was a separate section. They ft wore tranaforaer people thny knew. We didn't have / carpenters or bricklayers or no forth. We asked the 8 K P A and peo p I. e l i. k e Ui.it to participate. They 9 didn't know what to do but they were invited and 10 thny attended mootings, yes, 1 1 0- Now, you and Mr. i'appageorge were on both r 2 the t r .ins f: o r m e r committee and the capacitor 1 3 Com m i t t.ce , w v r en ' t. you? 1 4 A. Oh, as - as exofficio, ls It, there, 1 8 you're r i g t> t. . 1 ft Q. What does "exofticio" mean? l 7 A, l don't know. [ don't know. 1 fl f) . Old ..... d id you get t. o p ar lici pa t. o in t. h o n e 1 9 meet Inga? 2 0 A . T walked around while these q u y s w r e 2 l working. 2 2 Q . I.e t. me show y o u 2 3 A . I! went from o n e r non t o 1. h o o t ti e r . 2 4 Q I, el. in e s how y o u a nocumcnt. 0 2 0 0 2 1. And 2 *5 this l\ a s g o t t li e .1 c t u a l members o n those NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019510 I 0 m m i 1; t [Mill ?. A . That ' s what, f wan t a Iking nbo u t. . 3 Q. -- d 0 0 s n ' t i t ? 4 A . Yeah . Y e s . b (2 New, w 0 r e t h 0 re any representa t. i ven of t.hc 6 :pa 011 those c 0 m m i t. t e e:? ? 7 A . Tli i i /> w ti a f J a 1 r e a d y said. K P A was 9 in Vi ted t 0 p a r t i cipate. 9 What would the EPA do? The EPA did l 0 attend t h e me 0 ting 3 ; b uf when it. comes down to 1 1 worki n q 0 u t. t h e n i t. t. y g r i tty, we couldn't, get an EPA 1 2 guy in there. Wo askftd EPA to .it bond all o f. our J 3 in e e t i ng r . t 4 Q . flh h u h . 1 !> A. And if you want, to (jet. into that., we'd meet. I 6 L n - - L n Chicago with I: li o E PA; arid t h e next time 1 7 you'd meet, i 11 C. i nc: i n n a t. i with a d 1 f f e rent K PA man. l 8 We mot. in Washington al: fidthei'sbflrq and so on. 1 9 It. -- we asked t. hene; people. 2 0 Q. My point in that those commit toos were 2 1 really made up) of two Monnanio people and, with the 7. 2 exception of one representative from the Department 7: of Army on the transf ormer group, the trnn.iformer 3 4 and capacitor manufacturers, weren't they? 2h A. Excuse me f or laughing. And you're going NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019511 I l-.o s a y I; his i s s e I. T - s e r v i. n g . 7 Q. I'm j u n t. dski nq who what people wore on 3 the committees. 4 A . A fl y o u see i l right, there. You're r j q h t . h Q . Okay. 6 A. This in correct. I tried to say h o w 7 come .... 0 () . Well, how did it wind up like that, that 9 A. Well., I said the people on the capacitor 1 0 qroup were people' k no w l edq ea b 1 e with capacitors; and l l tho people on transformers, they were knowledgeable } 7 w i t. h t r ,i fi s f o r in ers . 1 3 Q. 7 mean, I note in re'viewing this document 1 4 that it appears that there were people from the EPA J h i4 nd -- 16 A . Yeah. ] 7 0. - the R K A and the TVA and others that were 1 0 on these committees, but they didn't got involved in 1 9 the working groups. 7 0 A . They didn't want, to work. They didn't know 7 t what t o do. 22 Q Okay. 7 3 A . That's that.' s all. H u t. t h e y wor e o n 1. h e 2 4 comm it t ee. 7 *) Q. Okay. Now, the National Electrical NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019512 I M a n u f a e t u r n r :j A 3 h o r i .i t i o n e out with t h e L r own 2 n t. a n d a r d a - 3 A, V e a , t h e y did. 4 Q. - for the hant'll i nq of PC It's in 5 t ra n n I: o r in<r s , did t he y no t ? 6 A . Yph, t hey did. 7 Q. Now, did Monsanto have a roI in doing n involved in the develop hi ent. of the National 9 R l e e t r i c a l Manufacturers Association s t a n d a rd a > 1 0 A. From the standpoint, that, those NRMA people 11 are the same people that that I think you find 1 7. there on t. h e A N5 I thing, i t. * s I - i t. ' a difficult. 1 .3 1: o r in e t o s e pa ra to t h e s e two. T get m i. xed up wl th J 4 i t. m v s e 1 f 1 b 0 They ' re pret.ly c ] o s e 1 y r e ] a I e d .. .. 16 A . Oh, absolutely. } 7 Q ~ - t. h e. i n 0 a t r y trade group and the A N'. I ? I 13 A . A ba o l u t e l y , 1 9 Q . Almost, one and the a a m e V 7.0 A . Yes . 7 1 Q . Okay. The 3 3 A . The one is d aled 73, and T. th i n k f. h e o th 3 3 o n e i ,`f d a ted '73 l(nd - 34 Q . . r think it's ' / 3 and '74. 3 b A . K x c u a e hi e . Okay . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019513 I Q. r h iippfi.u's Lli.iL -- L i! L mo show you Lhe NKMI^ 7 standards -- 3 A . /cab. 4 ft. -- the Nation a] HJecirica] M.itiuf acturera r> Association. Vt's Document 7 64 through B l fj . i'L 6 appears they came out in January of 1973. 7 A. ALL eight. a ft. And l. he. n the ANSI standards, the C-107, 9 a p p .1 r e n t L y came out i. n January of: 1974. I 0 A . yeah . I 1 ft. And that.','! Document728 through 763. l 7 A. fJh-huh, right Okay. ) 3 ft . Now, those standards, b o t. h the National L 4 K L o c L r i c a l M a ituf a cturei'a Association stun d a nis and i a the American Natjon-il Standards Ins t i t u t e l <> standards and bo tit of: those were prepared by I 7 tlu'fic pi otipa that basically we re comprised of I i) industry people a n d Monsanto - 1 9 A. Yes. 7 0 Q . -- then e Bt.arid a r cl s w e r e v e r v n i m j 1 a r t o 7 l each other, were they not? 7 7 A . 0 ft , t. ft e y a r c . 7 3 Q Almost. idonl icj 1. ? 7 4 A . They a r e . 7 S Q Y e a h . Those standards ar e considerably NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019514 1 dif Uiiin I: !i o standards that the K P A r.mo out 2 with on behalf ol the ciovf'nmenl. , are they not V 3 A. You're Ln an .ire a now where I! was out of 4 the picture. lS Q . I see, 6 A. f ran not. answer t h i n . i don't, know. 7 Q. Wo L l , ,ini you aware o I: the fact that when U the' (i over n hi e n t. took action its action was much 9 in ore. similar t o I: hat of J a p a n than to what t h e a e 1 0 i n d vi sir y qrou p s did? 11 A . f didn't know that, no. 1 2 1! Okay. You aren't, aware of the fact, that l 1 hho llovo rumen h banned the in a n u 1: ac: t u r e o f PCH'a ? 1 4 A . T n Ja pa n ? 1 ri Q No. f. ix the Uni tod Staton. J h A . In the United Stales, banned i l., y e s . Th 1.7 ('.lino a 1 j. 11 l e l a t e r 1. h a n '77. ' 7 9 , 1 3 I r o m e m b e r . 1 H Is that. r i q h t ? 19 Q . It was effective '79 2.0 A . Kffectivc 2 \ Q. - but tii"' doc is Lon was mad o a n d 2 2 1 ecj i n 1 a l i o n p a r, s e d in 1 / 6 , w a ti ` l i t y 2.2 A . f .ice opt what you say. 4 MR . CRAWKOHI) : Wei ] , i f y mi know, 1 Cl n im . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019515 A . ] don't know. 2 Q . (By Mr. Lacey) 0 k a y . i A . I wn ,s ro t i . 4 Q. Okay. You do recogni'/e I ha t. t. ho. C> o v e .< n m < n I 5 action was considerably ditto font than what both the 6 N a t i o n a .1 K 1 e c t r i c a J 7 A. No, L don't. 9 Q. Okay. Did either the National Klectrical 9 Mnnu liricturtvra Association or the American National J 0 91 a n (1 a t d s In n t. i t u t. e rec o in m e rid that. PCH 1 s be banned t l f r o m u s e as <1 i e l e c t r i c a ? 1 2 A . I - - 1 d <> ri ' t know. 1 w a 3 - - I w a s n '1 t. in 1.1 t h a h L i. in e , t o my k no w 1 edge . l 4 Q WerfcTi ' t you on t h o k e committees - 11 A . o h . 1 f. Q when these re port 3 were writ. t. e n V I 7 A . All right. 1 think you arc correct. j: 19 think I've heard what you've said. 1 9 I think, it you want a short answer, I 2 0 would have to say "no." That, is t. h e a n n w e r . 2 l Q. Okay. What the Industry recommended and 2? w h a t. the Governmenl did were very differ e n t. . 11 Industry said keep on u s L n <7 9 C R ' s a n d the Gov o r n in e n t 1 4 said top. MH . (' HAW);' OKI) ; Well, what t. ime frame NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019516 1 are you Ulkiruj .iboiil;? A. Well, (l e p e nd i n t| on whut lime: frame- von' re .1 t aL k i n q about. 4 Q (Fly Mr-. I.rtC.cy) Wei 1 , f h e i nd u y 1. ry was Li s.iy i. mi f r o hi l 9 V 0 on, "Ko e p on us imi them. We ' V o q o t f t o have t h e in " 7 1 / A . Ye s , until they f i n d a nub a t. 3 t. u t. t: . n a 1)0 these documents say anyt hinq a b o u t y 1 o o k i n cj f or a subst i 1 u t e for Pf'H's? l (3 A . That wasn't t he sub j ec I. o f those I i d oc u in c n t K . T h e s u b ) e c t. o f they e d o c. u in e n 1 s is t. o t. r y i ). a n d s e o \\ o w to pro vent c ontaminat ion of the 1 :> < nv jro n m e nt w :i t h HCH's. i 4 0 . C soo , 11> A. That. is what t. Ii e s: e documents arc addressed r ^ t <r . The - - the purpose of those, documents was not ] / to find a .'substitute. The purpose of these i n documents is to try and specify standards as to how 3 9 to prevent c o t t a m i n a t i 11 q the environ in c- n t, o b v i o u sly, 2 0 in the continuation of - of P(! R ' s . And this L s why 2 1 .1 a q r e e w j t. h w h a t y o u 1 v c: y a i d . 2 2 Q In f a c t, wa w n't L t. Mo n s a n t o ' s p O -l i t Lon that ? .'3 if wo uJ d be a l> |T o p r 3 a 1 e t. o 'OTi t i n ue 1 i > m a n u f a c. t. u r e 2. 4 and uso PCR ' s i. n the d i o 1. o c trie a i od be c a u s c 2 S M o ti a onto wa s qoinq to (' n a u r e t. h a t th- i o d u e l. n NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019517 t <i i d n ' t q o L out i n l" o L h n on v i t o irniRiit (: ro in t. ho i r ?. plants and to ref unc to noil P r H ' a l o anybridw who .1 let Pi'H's get out i n 1; o the environment (iron their 4 plants? b MR. C R A W F 0 R I) : If you know, (i A . t don't know, no, on that one. 7 Q (By M r. tdcey) l nee. (3 A . You ought to check with somebody else. 9 (). . 1 e e , W e .1 1 , Jet. me show you again 1. 0 Docu went 2 0 I)2 I through 2 0 0.19 and direct, your ) 1 a 1 lent. ,i o ri to Page 2 0 9 2 fi and 27. t 2 A . Okay . 1 H () . That'.( the steering c.omm it. tee a tat event. on l 4 PCIl's, i 3 i. t n o t ? 1 b A. 1 would a au m e ao, yes. That's w h a t j t l f> says . 1 7 Q. You were chairman of that, a Leering I fl cumuli L too? 1 9 A. Yea . 2 0 Q . Okay. And d o w n her e i n 1 torn N o . 4 i l a a y a 2 1 that " S ti' 1c t a nd e f: l: ti o t i v o s I. e p s have be e. n t akon 1'. 11 2 7 a v o i d 1 n t tod u c X. '< on o f PCH 1 c i n L o t. h e e n v i r o n me n t id 2 .1 M o n a .> n 1. o ' s p 1 i n t a " 7 4 A . Y or.. 7 Q . " and by l h e f a c i 1 it ic'i u s od w ti e r e. j_________________________________________ ____________________________ NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019518 t A s k i>. r a I - l.ypn L va n d f n r in o. r h an d capacitors a r o m ado. " 2 A. This is correr. 1. This is what, il says. .1 Q . 0kay . 'L*i\i position that was being taken by 4 this qroup was that PCM's weren't going to be an b environmental problem when us ni in the electric f. .i ndus try because the mo n u f a c. t. u r e r , Menu unto, and 7 Miniu.i n to ' s e u s' tomu'S we ro qo Imj to ensure t ha t I; h oy a didn't, get out in the environment; is that. correct? 9 MR . CRAWb'ORD; Well, that's his i o characterization. H e n u re. you understand. i i A . i: d id not write this. t si g n <2 d - - ) ? [i, (Uy Mr. l.acey) Who wrote that? l A . My name is on h ere. 1 4 0 . .1 t. w . i s ghost, w r i 1.t e n tor y o u V I `i A . E did not write this. J 6 () . Who w ro t e i t. ? l 7 A . I.' don't know. M u t. - - 1 a Q . Wei .1 , why i s your name: on i t ? 19 A. My n .1 m e w a s u s (2 d i n m a n y ways. 2 0 Q. Well, did you approve the documents that, 2\ used your name b e l: o r e t hey w > n t out? ?? A . I n e s n (' n c o , 1 W O ll ] d ii a v c t. o s u Y yes Q . Oka V !1 o - 2 4 A . y e n / i n e :< s e nc e . 2ri 0 . So , th e p o s i 1. i o n t; ii a 1; the s t. e e r n g NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMON0019519 I c Dinm i t I'.i'-fi w a s taking was that V3 o R 1 s weren't < j o l n <7 t o 2 be an fiiiviionmt'ii t a I pi n b .1 e 111 in d i e] ec t r i c u n e 3 bacauai! Monsanto, as I. ho iiunu [,u: turur, and I ho 4 people to whom Monsanto sold, as the actual nu iIdem S of: capacitors and transformers, wo no ijoiiuf to take 6 the necessary .steps to keep them from qet. ting out. 7 into the environment? fl MR. CRAWFORD: Well, 1 will state that l) i t: 3 t a l: n s w h a. t their purpose is i. n t h o - - ho '3 read 1 0 .it. and that that ought to stand for - 1. I Q. (Hy Mr. r, a coy) And isn't -- isn't that J 2 what - isn't, that, in sum, exactly what you were l .1 s t a t i n g ? 1 4 A . T h a t. 1 ff w h a t it states 1 ri here:, yes. I. 5 Q, Now, do you know whether or not, in truth 1 6 and in fact., all of the p e o p I e t. o w h o m Monsanto sold l 7 PCD's a c tuall. y hand loil them i. n such .1 way as to i a t. h e m f roin q e 1.1 i 11 q i 11 to the e nvi r 0 n m e n t ? I 9 A . No, I do no t. r do not. 20 Q. Would that make, any d > f f 0 r e n c e to you 2. I the chairman o(: the s l.ee ring c 0 inm i 11: ec , signing 2 2 d 0 c. u in e n t. 1 i l< e that ? 2..) A . K f fort was in ad e , a 3 i t s ays horn, 10 2 4 pr e vent spills into t. h c e n v i r 0 n m e ri t. . That, w a a 2.9 fully a c h i e v 0 d . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019520  Q , Okay- And would L I; m a k o any d i l f o r o n c o t o 3. you, as the person : i qn i nq that, that that wasn't 3 actua l ly aidt invod ? 4 A. Yes. In full conscience, yes. !> 0. Okay. Did Monsanto fcako any stops, as the h in a n u f a c t. u r e r o f P C M'S, to exercise: what, ever powe f it 7 ii a d t o ensure t h a I: i t s c mi tonifies didn't allow PC M ` s H to b e a pr obJe Ml? 9 A . They d.i d everythinq they could, yes. l 0 Q What d L d t h c y do with their customers who 1 1 wer en' t. It a n d 1 i nq PCM' s ji ro pe r 1 y V I ' A . l ilon ' I; k now . You would have to check with 1 3 t h c in a / k c 1.1 n q - - w i 1 h the per !io n - t. ho business l 4 d L r o o I: o r , I ';> () . Wc.ll, then, how can you say they did 1. fi everything in their power If you don't oven know 1 7 what t. h e. v d i d ? ] U A . A J 1 r i q h t . ')' h e n I 'll withdraw what. .1 said 1 9 and say chock into this with the top of the >.0 business, which .1 was nol . 2 1 Q. Well, would you aqroe with mo that Monsanto 3 3 should have done civ crythi mi in their power In try 7. 1 a n d e n s u r e t h a K t. h e i r on tome r s d i. d n ' t I o t i ' (; fl ' s < j o I 3 4 i II t. o t h e c n v i r o n m e n t ? 3.`> A. L' aqroe w L t h th.it. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019521 I Q. Okay. Now, wlm h. n I', r a I o<j y did Mon :! .mho 7. follow, from :i In own corporate- s t a n d po .i n t , with 3 roqard t;o rcspoiui inn to tho I'CR problem? 4 MR. CRAWKOKJ): If you know. ,\ . f (Tan iio t. a n s wm' that m y h e 1. f: , n o . I f. W fl ?! Tl ' t 1 wan as 1 a 1 re a d y told you, 1 was on 7 in y w a y townrd3 r n t i v o m e n t . They d i. d n ' t c all. m o i. n a O Tl t. h r- s e th i iiqn . 9 0 (My Mr, I.accy) Okay. 0 k a v . I.et me show l 0 y o u .\ document ho r <t . It' s pa i t o f a 1 a njor pac kaije , 3 1 tl u t. t. h e a c 1 u a 1 d o c u in e nt heq i ri s at a 9 3 t> and continue s 1 2 t h r o nq h a 9 i 7 . r t ' a memo da tod Marc h 2 2nd, 1972 - - 1 a A . Y c. n . 1 4 (> . - - f I Cl III Dr. M u ii c h t. o M r . 0 o s s a q o , w j 1. h a 1 a copy to y on. Is L t 11 o t ? ) A . Y c. a h , 1 ' m copied in h e re . I. 7 Q I) l d you 3e that memo and the a t: tuo. hm o n t s 3 a to i l.V 3 9 A . What, was the; date o n this 7 2 0 Q . March 7.7 ml, 1.977.. 7 3 A . If 1 was j ri t ti c c o ii n t r y , 1 a aw it; and 1 7. 7. w o u L d hovo r o c e i v e d LI:. T ' in w.-i 3 on hero: so, r 7. a a ft n m *>. , n owe wh ore iilonq the line, 1 rocei v e cl i 1. . ?. 4 Q , And this d o c 11 in o n t sot forth t h n s f r i I. e> j y with r ( q aid t. o d i o J e c t i i c s a n d F C M ' s 7 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019522 l A . 'Crtli . ?. Q Okay . .3 A . I . uiulnrs ta ml this. <\ Q Okay. R A . C o r i o r. t . 6 Q Now, a r o y o u t. e .1 l .i ri q m v. you cl i dn ' t. h v e a n y ! pa rL In lio rmn 1 a t i n g L h at strategy ? R A . No, I did not. 9 Q Okay. You i u a t got copied on it so you d 1 0 know what it. wa? \ l A . 1' got copied on it, yes. ) (3. . Okay. A n c'J Or. Munch would he more f ami liar 1 3 w i. t h w h a t 1; h e a c 1: a a L strategy 3 4 A . He wr ot e it. l ri Q (1 e w r o t o t h e c o r p o r a t o stmt o <JY ? 1 6 A . Bell, h v. wrote the - - this - t. h i s - 1 1. / don't know il! he ' n transmitting what was wr: i 11 e n by ) R r< om e one: else. ) 9 " T h e a l t. a c h e d ti a s " i t says 3 0 "strategy" -- "strategy has been revised on t h e <3 n o 2 1 sent with my memo of M a t rh 17th.1' 2 2 om<: ill i I1Q wart - - wa s rov i rt e <1 , a n d h e 2 3 s e ri t t. h is to (lossaqti. G o . sage is t.h e one you 2A should - 2A Q M T . G o s s a q e wou) d be able to t. a .1 k NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019523 l A . Yos . ?. (2 .. ,, t. o u s u ti out 1 h a t ? 1 A . ^fiS. 4 Q okay . Do 1 in o* show y ou a not tier dnciime n t , rj 0 V ft .1 h h v <> (KT h H 7 ft l> , d.i l:oit J u n o A ni.t , 19 7 1. I n I; h. i t. a ft document t h a t. you wroio ? 7 A . Yes . H f> A n d ymi w i o 1. e it t. o - 9 A . r 1: h Ink so. 1 0 H e t. v. r Mar s h in - - in D ninspJ s . 1 l Q Okay . And you copied a number of! pen p l e 1 2 a t) o u l t h a 1 d o c u in rnl , <: o r i e c t. "> t A . C o p i od i.n a number of people, ri. r;ht. 1 4 0 . Inc l ud. in q Mr. CJossaqo'? 1. 5 A . Y e 3 . 1 ft (> O i . M u n c h ? 1 7 A . Yea . 1 ft Q . Dr . H i o h a r d V 1 9 A . A l L t ti e s o here. '7 0 Q Does t h i s d e s r r i b e l h e. i n f o r m a l. ion t h a t. y n u 2 l acquired r e q a rdinir HCH's and the sales prosper 1 S l: O f 7 '7 AskareJ s ? / 1 A . T h i a .i <t w ti a t i t. d s c u s s r s , y e s . 'I1 h i s d e a 1 i! >. 4 w i L h r a i. 1. r o a d I-, ran a f o r in i - r a . 7 1. o A n d the i ( j> 1 a < e in e n l of PCH's an the f 1 II i d NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019524 I In Hiom ? 2 A. A chanqp - what T've rend so far i , 3 ho ropldofi Aroc lor I 7 fi 0 with 1244, That's net 4 replacing PCH ' a . f l. ' u rrp] .ic.i nq one I'CH with 4 a n o l. her L'CH . t 2 tS 0 is h e x a c h L o r o b i phony l . "T* h i n i a 6 P e n t. a c* h I o r o h j phony] . 7 0 . Okay . 0 A . S o , 1 t ' k r o placing O 7) o w j t. h arm t h e t 9 0. ALL r L q h t . f n 1: h o third par a graph, 1 0 a d i souas ion to - a ref p renco to a discussion you t l h a. d w L t; h C! o n e r al. K I oc trie's Hash Imjton, D . C . , J 2 people - I 1 A . fJ h huh. 1 4 C> . .... stimi t R e p r esontat. ive Ky a u ' s b i I J . l4 A . (J h - h u h , j 6 (> . What.' n that a i J abou t. ? l V A. Ryan was a comjrnssmnn, 1 H Q . And what bill was that? l 9 A. T don't know. Thiw wan soinoUnivj in 2 0 Cong res a, had t.o do with the Mon no of 21 R o p r e s e n t a t i v a . It w a a R o p r o :: o n t a t i. v lly a n , 7 7 T h a t wan a n a in i > t h a t. k e p t <' r o p p i ti cj u r> . 7. 1 Q. Rut youdon't know whv? 74 A. You. It kept r s o p p i ri q u p j ti t h i s - thin 2 4 area ol - ot lJ C H and environmental -- Ryan wan a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019525 l n a m e L U v t kept (' l o ppi. nq up. He was quite not. lvo 2 i n - - n t. h i a a r e a of the environmental t. h.inq. 1 MR . (M? ftWfORD : Da v i d , how are you A d o i nq y We ' i e T j C) h t o n b : 0 0 ci 1 <: 1 o e. k . b M R . f. A 0 E V ; i'll q u o n a m a y b e ?. 0 f* HI i n VI t c u T h a t. w o u .1 d b c: m y q vi e :: f? . 7 MR . CRAWFORD: That would be* b; 10. H 1' H K WITNESS: We can't, do that.. 9 MR . CRAWFORD: No. 1 0 THE WITNESS: No, we can't do that 1 1 MR . 0 l? A W E 0 R D : No. 1 ? T H (: V 1 DKOCIK A T'HKK : I'm ready. 1 1 MR . CRAWFORD: What do you want to 1 A d o? H a v e y ru q o t a not tier t.en m.i imten or somethi L 9 If o w e (Z a n make l: h a b p i .i n e ? 1 6 MR. l.ACKY: A J .1 1 cati do is i u .*: l keep 1. 7 on qo i mj hill you nay wo need ho shop and then wo 1 ft can try to conclude thin <i t. no me point. We're 19 close. ? 0 MR . HiAWFOKD: Yen. }. 1 MR. f,AC !: Y : Hui C don * t - you know, T 2.2 don't, knowwhe IhtM wn ' t J make i l in ion minute*: or ? .1 n o t . ?A MR. CKflWKOK)' : Okay. Wot.I, let ' n q < v e 7 b it a not. her ton minute:* - NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019526 1 Till': witn k /; . ALL t L qll t . 2` M IV . C IV A W K) X 1) : and t tie'll wc :i b i-i ttfjr -- 4 'J' H ): WITN K SI ; t don't w .i n l. 1 o r 1 o n e; 1 y r: Ml t .i :? ill y pi ,i n o . 0 MIV . f R A W K 0 K 1) : Okay. 7 M K . [, A C I-: Y : Vour flight is back to 0 S 1 , ) i o u i ;> ? 9 MW . f'RAWKO XI) ! y O 51 . 1 0 TU K W r T N K Si Si ; Yes. Y o a h . 11 MX . IACKY: In 1 h a t. the; last, f 1 i q h t 1 2 O U I; t li i a f ' von i. n < / ? ) a MX . C KAWV OR)) : Thal'n the: problem. 1 4 T H K WrTNFl Si Si : Yf!3 . 1 MX . 1. A c: K y : i.ast. flight out of Hobby? 1. fl MR . OHAWfOltn : C don't know if it's J7 the 1 a t. S 1 i q h t. . 1 a f! S` 11 hi e 1 M TUN WrTN K Si 3 : 1 t ' 1. ti o 1 a :i f f light. 1' 1 9 ] oo k e:d into t h a l tlOCMlUlO [ w a s o r 1 q i n a 1 1 y - <' "I u p t o 2 0 d o -- - L <3 t ' s nob < j r-l into - 2.1 MR . C RAWKOIM) : Okay. 2. 7 Tti X W 1 T N xSi ; Y o ii ' r o n o I, i j o L n q L. n :i h t i IK) t ll a t. 11 p t. O me , a .r r y o u 7 2 4 MX . r. At- K y : I i)iiii3 3 wo ' l l Let Min t. - - 2 h w V. 'll ncit win i y about t he; plane. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019527 I. THR Wl'TNK'ii! ; What a deal , ?. fi. (Hy Mr. I-a my) The ci.i .icussjonii a 10c rn e m n 3 th.it you wrote about - or to Mi . Marsh - 4 A . Miir s h , y c r. . b Q. about, the rti ftcunsiona vim had with l h o f> v a r i o u s O . H . poo p L o. , d i. d t lu t a c. c u r a t. o l v in m in a r 1 c 7 I h e various d i snission m y a u h a rl w i t. h General rt K l o a t; r i r a b o u t r o p I. a <: e m n n t 3 I! o r P G R * s ? 9 A . I hijveui ' t. read ,i t. , I don't know . I. 0 Q. Yeah, I know. I 1 A . Rut ( wouldn't, mislead - riow, we're -- 1 7. wn'v e (jot a - - 1 3 Q. Well, why don't you take a minute t. o review t 4 tha L? J 5 It's important to me that. ,T know that I 6 that is what you ni r. a 1. 1 G . H . h a v l n q i n f: o v m e d y o u I 7 A. Yes, 1 w o u 1 d II o t have (| e n e r a 1. e d t h i k j n d L0 of: in o r m a t i. o n m y \i e l I; , uni L a t. a r a 1. 1 y . I i: 1 9 wouldn't, have been at. l e. t. o . fJ' h 3 n i : w h y t) u v a 2 0 dry-type, expen 3 i v e f: U :3 c ? 7 1 T h j a i s pa n i 111 j a 1 o (i q i n f o i m a l i o n t h V 7 w a 3 q i v < n t o m o . r r. don' T. - t h o - t ill? who 1 o 2 3 t hi nq whs of no i in j) o i Ian c e t hat 1 l< n o w of . 2 4 Q . O E no import a n r. n ? 7 S A. No. Not t h a I 1 know of, no. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019528 L Q . I ;3 o e . 2 A. 1 t. may son nd l twit wav, but it actually 3 w a 3 n ' t. 4 MW. CRAWKOK1) : Have wo .identified that `i with .i n u m b o i ? 6 TIIK WITNRSS: I don't, know. 7 Mil. f, ACKYi Yon. Wo proviously have. H 1 t ' k H 7 fi 3 I h r o ugh 8 7 6 S . ) A. Nothing happened as a roan LI- oC that, I 1 0 <i r, a in e you . I1 Q . (M v Mr. Lacey) Okay. You w ere s t. i ] 1 l 2 in tor oatod at this point, ovon to tho ox tont you had J 3 bot'ii put on the shelf, .in trying to keep people I 1 a d v i a o d o P p o t o n t i. a L oppor tun it ioa f o r f u r t h e r a a 1. o a 1 h o f P OH'a l b A . I won Id a a y 1 11 i a . ) 7 (> , - even t. h nil q h y o u u n d e r si t. o o d that i t i a i n to n L i on o J; M o n a a n to a t this 1; i. m o to a Lop 1 9 mak i rig PCM ' a a a a o o n a r: r e p 1 a c e m e n t. a e o u J1 d t> e 1 o 2 0 A . Yos / t would have 1. o a a y this?. 2 1 0 . Y O U ' T n still looking for markets i i n t he 2 2 m e a n t i. me ? 2 1 A . We 1 1 , 1 t o .1 d yon this d o e ri n 1 t a m o u n t t o 2.4 vovy much, 1 f - - if - i. if y o u i n t e r o r < t th i. ii >1 J 2h a i g n i f i c. h n t. t. h i n g , <i 1 1 t i g h t . J have t o go wi t h NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019529 I w h a t. t. h o - wha t i s s a i >t i n t It o r o , 7 Q We J 1 , I'm j 11 s l l t y i n 0 3 A . I (1 i d n ' t i iino ro what - what was <j L v n m n . 4 It. has to do wi t. h c 1 e e 1 r i c t. j a i it t. r a n s f or m r, 1 b b o 1. i n v r> f> f) . We 1 1 . t. h m e a re. cti sniani ons in i here about / the prospects for sol 1 i n<j P C 11 ' s to China, a n it od f; o r 0 I'CH's i n Russia - arc-' n ' t 1. h o ! o 1. h i n y s disc u s s e d 9 thot e? J 0 A . 7 d i cl t> 1t rcari t. hat . 1 l q . Wo L 1. , maybe w o o u a It t t o a 1; op back and just 1 7 J o o k a t i l. a c) a i ri , I - l o t. ui e show you the n A . In t h i a l. h i nq - - J 4 0 . the t h i 7 d 7> a q e . i b A , - t o Marsh? J 6 C> Y v. a . H e re - here's t. h o' in e m o , l l h a s P a cj e l 7 l , l'.)i|e 7 , Paij<; 1. You're ta1 k L n <y a b o u t h o n: China i n is (joi nq l.o probably need chiih iderabl i: Aroc.l or for 19 capacitors. Tho Runs ia iki, who luve two plants, have 7 0 need for 5,000 tons per y n ai 7 1 A . I was pas si mj a 1 o nq i it t: o v m a 1'. i o it i It at I 7 7 pi eked ti p s o m e w h e r e , 7. 1 Q . Now, why d L d you I. h i it k t h a t l n f o r ui a t ion 74 won 1 d be of i iil.orent. t. o M o It s a 111. o n i n c e y o u as u nd n ra tootl they It ad a Irea d y m a d o t h o d n c i s i.on to NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019530 1 l stop si1 U imj Pen's .is noon .is their customer a could n w i t. c. h over? 3 A. Nobody hud a replacement for Pffi . 4 Q. Well, you were to l kirn; about A . Th i B this t i or g in, as I u n d e r s t. a nd i t. , 6 w i t h K u r o pe , n t ernat. Lon.i l - Marsh i s in Kurope, 7 T h e i r po S t U r Or o n FCH - 1 don't know the date of fl t. h i s t h i n g v i. jht now was considerably ditto rent 9 fro m t. 11 6! p o s t u r e. here in the States. l 0 y [ see . 15 o, Monsanto only was going to stop 1 ) ft e .1 .1 i ncj ITH ' s i n t fi e ll n i t i'd Staten. They wer e going l 2 to keep on selling them overseas? 1 3 A. The French were going to. the. Germans and l 4 so to r th - I Q . Ami M o n santo was, t. o o ? 1 fi A. and the Russians. J / /' a r d o n '> 1 fl Q, Ami Monsanto was, too? ) 9 When Monsanto shut, down here;, that 2 0 automatically shut it down i. i > in Hr i t.i i n . That 2 1 is what happe ne d. ?.? Q . [ gee. Hut in the meantime, in Kurope and 3 3 other places. Mo ns ant o was goi. rig to try to continue 7 4 to sell ITH ' s ? 7. S A. fn Kurope, yes. Yes. lie c a u s e ttie posture NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019531 I f. h n r i: W .1 *4 cons idiirah I y d i I fo run L h h a n i. t w.i j It i > t e . Q. Were you involved at all in wonitori n o l h e 1 actual, s a l e s by Mona.m l:o at tJ (J R materials, i r 4 determining whal was p i <> I it. a t> 1 e and w h a t. w a, r n n I ? s A. No. I! think now you 1 eo (jottiinj in . n a r n a 1 h a l i nvol v e s o t. h or- t h a n d i e J e. r. (. i 5 c . / Q . Well - a A. you're talking about the broad area, ) Q. Okay. And you were, n't involved - i n A. No, .1 wan not in that. i i Q. Uven though fro in 1971. on Monsanto, it Least 1 2 in t h o !l n i led V, [. a t. e s , w an 1 1 m it i n g its sales t. o I 1 d i c. I. o r. t r i c u :? o s ? 1 4 A . Y (' a h , l li a t - * t ha t ' s r i q h t. . ia Q llo you roc a L L .i n y t L ino when Mo n ) was i f\ h a v i iiq t r oiibl e n 1 .1 i ntj i t. a A roc lora lee an lhc i/ q u a 1. L t. y o W L t s prod tic t w a s n o I: a s g o o d .is it or i a i i s c o in p e t. 5 t o r a ? i. ) A . No. Who a n; i t s o o in po l . i 1: o r s > ;to Q Well, w c>. r e n ' t t ho r e o t h e r p e o p .1 c u n d t. b r. ?. \ world who were in a k i ihj pcir s at a o in e p o i n t 1: L m o .' y ?. A . oh, yon. No , l thought you wore I k i ri q - ?. \ o h , y o u ' r e - y o u ' r o i. n t o ex U.S. y 4 Q [ ' in ask i n q w h e t h v. r or not. you re. I a 7ri >> n t. tod o |; t i m o, w h e n Mo n3 an to 1 s prod ti e K i o n PCH'u NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019532 1 w.ia not. ,is qood .i u ua I ity ns th.it of the fopanoso ?. and t. lie Gerniiiri.i , for example? 1 A . No . No, absolutely n o t . 4 Q. I t. wa s a l w a y s s U (1 O 1 i o r ? 9 A . l don ' t s a y L 1: was " s u ini r i o r . " T i. w o s (, e q u i v a 1 C. II t . .1 l say t. h c i r quality, a;i fa r a s r 7 know. was and co u L d ha ve been o q u i. v a L e n t . n `I'h ,i n c. r> in e a back to so 1.1 .i nq t h e s e 9 i n t e r na t i o n a l stdnil.inta that I worked on. That was i n the (mu po fie f ot it., to have uniformity of quality. 11 Q. And yon don't - you don't rncati at any i ? point, in time the United States' plants or Monsanto l 3 in the United States tie i ruj concerned that Its PCR's 1 4 w e r e n n t. a a q o o d a quality - l 5 A . No,no, no. Not at all. 1 6 0 . Okay. l 7 A . No. 1 f) 0. If that happened, would that be him prisinq 19 to you? 2 0 A . Oh,it. would. 2 l Q . Okay. Some o f I. h o s e As k a nits, o r P (- R ' u , ? 2 used in 1ra nsformera and capacitors had other 3 3 m .iter i a t a added to them in addition to the l' <.' R ' a , 3-1 did they not? 2 3 A . Ye a , NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019533 1 _ Q A n d wore those other materials a p rob Loin o '? having t o x i c e f f e c' l :i o > advc r n e effects o n h u in an '3 health? 4 A . Not. t. o in y k ri o w 1 e d q e . b Q . A H f a r as you know, that was not the ease? fi A. No . 1 t h ink y o u h e 11. e r talk t o t he modi c a / poop 1 e on t h i s 0 0 I.e l in e h how y c> u a D o c u in e n t 1 d 9 4 7 . That 1 s ') ha n dwr L t t o n n o to dated April b t h, l 9 6d , from an 3 n R . M . McCut.c h e on at the Kruminr i c. h plant, to you, i s 1 t i t no t? 1 2. A . Y e s l 3 O . A ltd i t t a 1 k a about 1 4 A . ] 9 6 n . O ti , all right. I.'1 Q. - - t: j L k n about thimjs added to PCR ' - 1 f. A. All r i q h 1 . This i fl an added a r a v e r q e r . 1 7 'I' I) L s ii o e s h a v <* t ox ic L ty, yes. ) fl p. Okay. So, some of the products that 1 9 Monsanto sold c o It t. a L n Leg r>rn ' s no t. only had 1?C n ' s :! o but also had o t h e i m a l <- i i a 1 s that could cause toxic ?. 1 problems , d i d 1.It e y It o L? 2 2 A . Th i 1 'i W h rl t t h r y c a 1 1 c-.d a " s c a v e n q e r , " ? u s o d i n the t in <5 u n L o t: a f: e w tenths of a percent a ltd ? i p e r s e , t h : e C ) 1 o X i d e s h a v c their own m e d i c u .1 e It a raetor i s l. i 0 :> h 1 s t o r y , 1 e t m e say. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. HARTOLDMONO019534 1. And <j n this 3 u () i e c l; I- h i n Is aonifit'. h i mj 2 for the m e d5ca I pe o p1o 3 Q . Okay. 4 A . - for l' r. K e J 1 y . r> Q 0 o you know why a p l a n t per s o n wa wr i t i n <7 6 you to l.el.l vou about that proble in ? 7 A . No, [don't . No, 1 don't. 8 (> . Hi) t. you do rec a 1 1 t. h a t. s one of t. h c* 9 add i t i v e a t h a t wore put in t h o s i! fCH's E o r J 0 dic1vc t r i c: r> ft t p o t.i e s h ad 1he j r own additional toxi c l l pcoble m a , c o r re c t ? 1 7 A . T h ) s i s c o r r e c t . K p o x i d e s, we're t. a J k i n g l 3 a b o u t; and 1 h i. s i s c lire e c t . T he toxicology of J <1 ('pox i d ('. ] s a a e p a r a i e s u h i c c i., and I ' m not q ua 1 i f i c d l 5 t o eg ua to it. 1 6 Q . What sort, of warnings did you r group 1 7 provide to the people to whom you sold PCB motor Luis 1 fl having these scavengers added to them? Anything? 19 A, Not a s a formal, program or approach, that T 70 know of. 7 J You're referring to the fact, of the 2 2 addition of this jinail amount of scavenger, what 73 effect that, has what, bearing that has, on 2 \ toxicology a n d 3 o E o rt h . N o t that I know of, no. 7S However, they would refer- t. o t. h e NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019535 i t I. i to c.i hwt'H on on i.linan hh i.nqs to pen pin. us liny 2. them, the what.'n printed in the I i t e ra t. u r e . .3 Q. The primary source of literature to people 4 a b o u t a n y t o x i c. o .1 o g i cal c> r d e r m a t o .logical p r o b l < m a 5 with PCH ' a and Askoral as dielectric fluids was the b li l.na I lire that we've already .looked at., was it not? 7 A. Yen. 8 Q . Are you aware; of any ot.hc.r 1 A terature 9 pr (Willed to customers about toxicology or hazards, 1 () (i l her than what, we've already looked at.? l t A. No. 1 3 () . Sio, as far an you know, as t. he person l 3 designated by Monsanto to apeak to advertising on 1 4 d A e J e c. I r Acs, in a r k e l i ti q on di elec t. r Acs, a n d t. e c h n i c a 1 l ?> dal. a on dielectrics, that's the solo source of 1 6 i n f or m ai.i on luipyil .i ed to customers V l 7 A. As Car as know, yos. i a MR. OKAWFOKD i We better shut her 19 down . ?.0 MR. I.ACKY ; Okay. Well, we 1 .1 j ?, I T f ( K W IT NR : Yeah. 7 ? MR. LACKY : bet me address the 7.3 question whether wo need t o <* oin p I e t e I. h l a later o r 74 r\ o I . 71. MK. CRAWFORD: Okay. Fine. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019536 I MU. C. AC K Y : A ii >.t wn ' l l d o c L d ii w h.) t to 2 do at. future date. Hut, riqht now, wo ' ] J ) u <! t leave 1 It open. sub j o <: 1; t o b <! : ri <j o o m p L e t o d . 4 MU . CRAWFORD: All r J q h l. . MayLc w c ``i <: a n d o i t b y p h o n n LI: you don't have a lot of 6 q u e k t. i o n f! . 7 MU . LACK'/ : Okay . We ' J 1 look al that n w h e n w o <j n t t hen; . 9 MU . CRAWFORD: Okay. 1 0 T H K VIDNOOUAPHRR: This concludes the 1 ] d rpo n i t. .i a ri o f Mr . )' a vi 1 H e n .i q n u n . The time in 5 ill. l 2 MU . fi AC l\ Y : You need t o note it's the 1 3 coni-i n u a t. 1 n n . T t. ' n not the conclusion 1 4 TIIK V r D K n G R A p H R R : Okay . r t ' s not o d. 1 f> Mf! . 0 1. K `> K N : Adjourned, rather. L f-i ***** 17 LH 19 20 21 72 7 24 7 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019537 I S i; 11 N AT 1] R R OF W I T.N R_SH 2 3 1, I'A[ll, GEORGE HEN TONUS, solomnlv 4 swear or a f. f! i r m , undo r t ho pains and penalties of i. per jury, that t. 1) e 1 ore.ejo i ng p a q e. s , 1 6(1 t h r o uqh <14 6 6 e o n t a i n a t rinj a n d correct t cansc r l P t of t h '/ t. e s t i m o ri y q j v f- n by ihe a t t he t i hi e and p 1 are stilted n with l, h o c o r r o cti o ns, i f: a n y , and the r na sons 9 the.rrf o r no ted o n a a e para t. e st h e e t. o f paper and l 0 a 11a <; hod her ho ; a nd tha t t am h iijnlmi I.h i s bellora a 1 1 Not.ary l'lilil i o. . l2 13 PAI/h GEORGE RKNIiGNUS l4 15 1 6 T H K S TATE OF : l 7 *5 U R 53 Cl R j; n R D ANO SWORN 'L'O flKFORE MK, the 1 fl uiulcrn i qiied ail l.ticiri t.y , by the. witness, )' A 111- GEORGE 1.9 RKNEGNUS, on this t h o ______ day l: _________________________ , 2 0 1907 , 21 22 Notary Public in and Toe 23 T h o G t. a t o o t' _______ __ 2 4 My commission ex p i r es ; 2l> NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019538 J TtiK :;tatk op trxm; . 2. J , Cheryl I K . f.ePevera, a Corl i f j e<] .1 Shorthand Reporter, hereby certify that t. ho 4 foreqoing testimony was given hcforc; me after the l3 Witness had b o e n fi i r s I: d u I. y s w o r n . 6 i further certify that. J prepared thin 7 transcript and that the foregoing pages constitute a tl r o m [il ete a n d correct copy of t. h o t. r anscri p l. of t h e 9 proceedings. 1 0 I f u r t. h e r c e r t i f y that. I a in neither I l attorney for, rotated to, nor employed by any of the } 2 p a j lien to 1 h e lawsuit, in which this deposition was L'i taken; further, I a in nt> i. thnr related to nor employed ) 4 by any attorney of record in this cause, nor do I 1 b have a 1 i. lunci aL interest i. n the matter. 1h ] 7 C51VKN UNDKH MY HAND AND SF.Al. OP OFF] OK I H in Houston, Texas, on this t h a 2 8 t h day of April, 1 9 1 987. 20 2.1 .f, e F e v e r s ^ ---------------' csii, r i.', cm 22 2 2 C e r t. i f i c Lion Number: J C 9 0 Date (if Kxp Li'i.i I: ion i Do com her II, 19 8 8 2A Afldren::: 2 9 0 0 r> m i t. h Street, Suite 104 H o u s t o n , Tex a 7 7 0 0 fi 2.b Phono: 7 11 / fi 2 2 1 7 b / NELL NIC CALLUNI & ASSOCIATES, INC. HARTOLDMONO019539 Pag* Lina LAirril'S NOTSS NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. HARTOLDMONO019540