Document 3JDaRYpXDDMg6VNZkBaYbZRwn

FILE NAME: Johnson & Johnson (JAJ) DATE: 2017 Aug 18 DOC#: JAJ019 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition of Dr. John Hopkins Part 4 Page 1058 1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES 2 3 TINA HERFORD and DOUGLAS HERFORD, 4 Plaintiffs, 5 vs Case No. BC646315 6 AT&T CORP., a subsidiary of AT&T INC. and its subsidiary PACIFIC BELL 7 TELEPHONE COMPANY, et al.. 8 Defendants. 9 10 VIDEO DEPOSITION OF DR. JOHN HOPKINS 11 Day 4 12 Friday, August 18, 2017 13 AT: 10:03 am 14 15 Taken at : 16 Shook Hardy & Bacon LLP 25 Old Broad Street 17 London EC2N 1HQ United Kingdom 18 19 Court Reporter: DEIRDRA JORDAN 20 21 22 23 24 25 Job NO. 2684109 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1059 Page 1061 1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY 1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY LAW DIVISION - MIDDLESEX COUNTY LAW DIVISION - MIDDLESEX COUNTY 2 2 3 DAVID CHARLES ETHERIDGE and 4 DARLENE PASTORE ETHERIDGE, 5 Plaintiffs, 6 vs Docket No. MID-L-0932-17 AS 7 BRENNTAG NORTH AMERICA, INC. 8 (sued individually and as successor-in-interest to 9 MINERAL PIGMENT SOLUTIONS, INC. and as successor-in-interest to 10 WHITTAKER CLARK & DANIELS, INC.) et al., 11 Defendants. 12 ________________ 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 IRMAVERDOLOTTI, 4 Plaintiff, 5 vs Docket No. MID-L-5973-16 AS 6 BRENNTAG NORTH AMERICA, INC. 7 (sued individually and as successor-in-interest to 8 MINERAL PIGMENT SOLUTIONS, INC. and as successor-in-interest to 9 WHITTAKER CLARK & DANIELS, INC.) et al., 10 Defendants. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY LAW DIVISION - MIDDLESEX COUNTY 2 3 RONALD MARTIN TEUSCHER and 4 SHANNON TEUSCHER, 5 Plaintiffs, 6 vs Docket No. MID-L-7249-16 AS 7 BRENNTAG NORTH AMERICA, INC. 8 (sued individually and as successor-in-interest to 9 MINERAL PIGMENT SOLUTIONS, INC. and as successor-in-interest to 10 WHITTAKER CLARK & DANIELS, INC.) et al., 11 Defendants. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 1060 Appearing for the Plaintiffs: 3 SIMON GREENSTONE PANATIER BARTLETT, PC BY: CHRIS PANATIER, ESQ. 4 BY: LEAH C. KAGAN, ESQ. 3232 McKinney Avenue, Suite 610 5 Dallas, Texas 75204 214.276.7680 6 cpanatier@sgpblaw.com 7 8 Appearing for the Defendant Johnson & Johnson: TUCKER ELUS LLP 9 BY: SHARLA J. FROST, ESQ. 405 Main Street, Suite 500 10 Houston, Texas 77002 972.537.4205 11 sharla.frost@tuckerellis.com 12 Appearing for die Defendant Johnson & Johnson: 13 SHOOK HARDY & BACON LLP BY: KATHLEEN FRAZIER, ESQ. 14 JPMorgan Chase Tower 600 Travis Street, Suite 3400 15 Houston, Texas 77002-2926 713.227.8008 16 kfrazier@shb.com 17 Appearing for Whittaker Clark & Daniels: 18 HOAGLAND LONGO MORAN DUNST & DOUKAS LLP BY: MARC S. GAFFREY, ESQ. 19 40 Paterson Street, PO Box 480 New Brunswick, New Jersey 08903 20 732.545.4717 mgaffrey@hoagtandlongo.com 21 22 23 24 25 Page 1062 2 (Pages 1059 - 1062) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 A P P E A R A N C E S...(continued) 2 Attending via telephone: LEVY KNIGSBERG LLP 3 BY: MOSHE MAIMON, ESQ. BY: DANIEL LATERRA, ESQ. 4 BY: JEROME BLOCK, ESQ. 800 3d Avenue, 11th Floor 5 New York, New York 10022 212.605.6200 6 mmaimon@levylaw.com dlaterra@levylaw.com 7 jblock@levylaw.com (For Plaintiffs in the Lanzo matter) 8 9 HAWKINS PARNELL THACKSTON & YOUNG BY: OLIVER BUNDY, ESQ. 10 455 S. Figueroa, Suite 3200 Los Angeles, California 90071-1651 11 213.486.8043 obundy@hptylaw.com 12 (For Elizabeth Arden Inc., Revlon Inc., Bristol-Myers Squibb Company and Yves Saint 13 Laurent America, Inc. in Herford case) 14 FOLEY & MANSFIELD 15 BY: M. AMADEA GROSECLOSE, ESQ. 300 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2800 16 Los Angeles, California 90071 213.283.2100 17 mgroseclose@foIeymansfield.com (For Unilever United States, Inc. and 18 Conopco, Inc. in Herford case) 19 ORRICK, HERRINGTON & SUTCLIFFE LLP 20 BY: C. ANNE MALIK, ESQ. BY: ALLEGRA NOONAN, ESQ. 21 1152 15th Street, N.W. Washington, DC 20005 22 202.339.8458 amalik@orrick.com 23 anoonan@orrick.com (For Johnson & Johnson) 24 25 Page 1063 Page 1065 1 A P P E A R A N C E S...(continued) 2 Attending via telephone: 3 MONTGOMERY McCRACKEN WALKER & RHOADS, LLP BY: RONALD E. HURST, ESQ. 4 123 South Broad Street Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19109 5 215.772.7242 rhurst@mnrwr.com 6 (For Brenntag Specialties in Teuscher case) 7 ' COSMICH SIMMONS & BROWN 8 BY: LaKEYSHA GREER ISAAC, ESQ. 100 Vision Drive, Suite 200 9 Jackson, Mississippi 39211 601.863.2100 10 lakeysha@cs-law.com (For Shulton, Inc., sued individually and as 11 successor to The Shulton Group and/or Shulton, Inc.; The Procter & Gamble Company, 12 sued as successor-in-interest to The Shulton Group and/or Shulton, Inc.; and Wyeth Holdings 13 LLC, filc/a Wyeth Holdings Corporation, f/k/a American Cyanamid Company, sued individually 14 and as successor-in-interest to The Shulton Group and/or Shulton, Inc.) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 ALSO PRESENT VIA TELEPHONE: DR. DAVID S. EGILMAN 24 VIDEOGRAPHER: LINDA FLEET 25 1 A P P E A R A N C E S...(continued) 2 Attending via telephone: 3 DRINKER BIDDLE &REATH BY: JACK N. FROST, ESQ. 4 600 Campus Drive Florham Park, New Jersey 07932-1047 5 973.549.7338 jack.frost@dbr.com 6 (For Johnson & Johnson in all but Herford) 7 KING & SPALDING LLP 8 BY: ALEXANDER CALFO, ESQ. 633 West Fifth Street, Suite 1700 9 Los Angeles, California 90071 213.443.4365 10 acalfo@kslaw.com (For Johnson & Johnson in Herford case) 11 12 RAWLE & HENDERSON LLP BY: LINDA DOBBINS, ESQ. 13 1339 Chestnut Street, 17th Floor Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19107 14 215.575.4200 ldobbins@rawle.com 15 (For Cyprus Amax Minerals Company and Imerys Talc America in NJ cases) 16 17 DENTONS US, LLP BY: ERIN CARPENTER, ESQ. 18 601 S. Figueroa Street, Suite 2500 Los Angeles, California 90017-5704 19 213.623.9300 erin.carpenter@dentons.com 20 (For Imerys Talc America, Inc. and Cyprus Amax Minerals Company) 21 22 HARRIS BEACH PLLC BY: MATTHEW QUIRIN, ESQ. 23 100 Wall Street New York, NY 10005 24 212.912.3505 mquirin@hamsbeach.com 25 (For Glaxosmithkline in Teuscher matter) Page 1064 Page 1066 1 (On the record at 10:03 am) 2 VIDEOGRAPHER: W e are now on the record. 3 This is the continued deposition o f John Hopkins. The 4 date today is A ugust 18,2017, and the tim e is 10:03 5 am. 6 EXAM INATION: 7 BY MS FROST: 8 Q G ood morning, D r Hopkins. 9 A G ood m orning. 10 Q W e have been with you for about three days, but 11 since w e w ere doing the P la in tiff first, w e're in a 12 little b ito fre v e rs e order. 13 So I'm going to ask you, if you would, 14 please, can you introduce yourself to the ju iy ? 15 A Yeah. M y name is John Hopkins. M y academic 16 qualifications: I have a Bachelors degree in chemistry 17 and biochem istry from the U niversity o f St A ndrew 's in 18 S cotland and I have a P hD in toxicology from the 19 U niversity o f D undee M edical School in Scotland. 20 Q Do I also understand that you hold a membership 21 in one o f the R oyal Societies in connection w ith your 22 w ork as a toxicologist? 23 A Yes. I'm a chartered biologist, but I'm also a 24 m em ber o f the Royal Society o f Biology. 25 Q W hat is your relationship with Johnson & 3 (Pages 1063 - 1066) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1067 Page 1069 1 Johnson? 1 powder? 2 A Johnson & Johnson is a past employer. I had 2 A It did, indeed. Certainly, talc has always 3 started o ff m y w ork in toxicology. I worked in the 3 been a topic o f interest within Johnson & Johnson, and 4 pharm aceutical industry for a couple o f years from 1974 4 certainly from m y first joining the company in 1976,1 5 to 1976 and I jo in ed Johnson & Johnson, the U K com pany 5 w as involved in talking to people w ho are involved in 6 in 1976. 6 talc safety in the U nited States, regular m eetings, and 7 Q How long did you stay w ith the U K company? 7 basically keeping up to date w ith the literature and 8 A I stayed with the U K company until the end of 8 w hat was going on. 9 1994 and then I m oved to the U nited States com pany for 9 Q W e'll get back to that in m ore detail. 10 four y e a rs ,'9 5 ,'9 6 , '97, '98. 10 B ut I w ould like for you to tell the jury 11 Q W hat positions did you hold during the tim e 11 w h a t hav e yo u done p ro fessionally since yo u left 12 th at you w orked for Johnson & Johnson? 12 Johnson & Johnson in 2000? 13 A W hen I joined the U K company, I joined the 13 A I left Johnson & Johnson as a full-time 14 M edical D epartm ent, b asically w ith responsibility for 14 em ployee in 2000, and I m aintained contact w ith the 15 safety in toxicology. 15 co m pany as a co n su ltan t un til approxim ately 2011, 16 Q Did you later becom e the head o f the M edical 16 m ostly w ith the European affiliates. 17 Departm ent? 17 B ut in 2 0 0 0 ,1basically set up m y own 18 A I becam e the head o f the R& D group in the UK 18 com pany, a consultant toxicology com pany, and that 19 co m pany, a n d that's the po in t th en I relocated to the 19 com pany, w e w ork for basically anyone in the industry 20 U nited States to be responsible for the baby products 20 w ho has an interest in safety o f their consumer 21 R & D on a w o rld w id e basis. 21 products. 22 Q Let's talk a little bit about your 22 Q A s part o f your w ork as a consultant in your 23 responsibilities as a toxicologist during your 25 years 23 ow n business, do you continue to evaluate the safety o f 24 at Johnson & Johnson. 24 m aterials and carry out assessm ents o f safety for the 25 W hat did you actually do? 25 ingredients that go into products? Page 1068 Page 1070 1 A Basically, well, the role o f a toxicologist is 1 A That is correct, yes. 2 to ensure the safety o f the products, and not just baby 2 In pretty well all o f the toiletries and 3 products. Initially, I w as also involved in som e o f 3 cosm etics that you w ould go into W al-M art or any store 4 the professional products. 4 to buy, you w ould find that they list m any, many 5 But, as w e're talking about baby products and 5 different ingredients. 6 particularly baby powder, m y responsibility w as to 6 A nd the role o f the toxicologist is to ensure 7 ensure that the materials used in the products are 7 that each o f those ingredients is safe for the purpose 8 safe, and that's basically a toxicologist's role. 8 o f use. 9 Q Y ou m entioned term "professional products". 9 Q Do I understand that you are w hat is called a 10 W e've not heard that before. W hat are you talking 10 "cosm etic safety assessor" under the EU cosm etics 11 ab o u t w h en y o u talk ab o u t Johnson & Johnson's 11 directive program ? 12 p ro fessio n al products? 12 A Yes. 13 A W ell, certainly back in the 1970s, early 1980s, 13 Q C ould you explain that for the jury, please? 14 th e U K co m pany h a d overall responsibility for products 14 A Yeah. Essentially, in Europe products need to 15 th a t w e see n o w as hospital p roducts, surgical sw abs 15 have a file assem b led befo re they're p laced on the 16 th at are used in operating theaters, item s that 16 m arket. T hat's not a prem arket registration, but it's 17 surgeons u se, the gow ns, the h ead rest, and th o se kind 17 the responsibility o f the com pany to assem ble a file, 18 o f m edical products. 18 in cluding the safety o f the products. 19 But in the m id '80s, they w ere split out into 19 Part o f that is a requirem ent for a safety 20 a separate com pany and I stayed w ith the consum er 20 report, w hich typically could be 20, 30 pages long, to 21 company. 21 review the product, the safety o f the ingredients and 22 M S FROST: Can w hoever is on the phone please 22 any final studies. 23 m ute? W e're hearing feedback. 24 Q Did your role as a toxicologist call for you to 23 A nd to be an approved safety assessor, the 24 assessor needs to have the appropriate toxicological 25 assess the safety o f talc as an ingredient in the baby 25 background experience, and I have a qualification, a 4 (Pages 1067 - 1070) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1071 Page 1073 1 chartered biologist, w hich enables m e to be an approved 1 done over the years, assem ble that data as to the 2 safety assessor for European cosm etic products. 2 safety o f raw materials. 3 Q H ow m any o f those are there in Europe? 3 Q Have you personally published papers in the 4 A W ell, probably in total, probably several 4 field o f toxicology and biology? 5 dozen, m aybe a hundred m ore. In each country there's 5 A Yes, I have, yes. 6 maybe ten, 20 or 30 who operate privately through a 6 Q Can you give us just a sense o f the types o f 7 company, as I do. 7 papers and the volume that you have done? 8 M ost o f the large corporations w ill --the 8 A W ell, the papers I've published from the three 9 Unilevers, the Procter & Gambles, those kind o f 9 and a half, four years I did for m y PhD thesis were 10 com panies tend to have their ow n inhouse people. 10 related to the w ay that certain dm gs react on red 11 But people w ho operate as I do as a company, 11 b lo o d cells in the body. 12 probably ten, 1 5 ,2 0 in the UK. Probably sim ilar 12 I was lucky enough to do m y PhD in a teaching 13 n u m bers in o th er countries. 13 hospital, so w e h ad exam ples o f getting hum an blood 14 Q Now, you said that you had a PhD in -- did 14 sam ples and w e looked at the w ay that certain dm gs 15 I und erstan d p h arm acology an d toxicology? 15 reacted w ith those people. 16 A That w as the w ork I did, yes, for m y PhD. 16 I have done other work since then in the 17 Q A nd w hat is pharm acology and toxicology? 17 cosm etic industry. O ne o f the problem s, o f course, is 18 A Pharm acology is the study o f the way that 18 that a lot o f that w ork is confidential and it tends to 19 drugs, m edicines w ork in the body, how the body reacts 19 be retained w ithin the industry and you don't alw ays 20 to them , w hat kind o f w ay that they w ork. I f you've 20 publish it, but I have done other w ork on skin safety 21 g o t a h eart d ru g o r a n antibiotic, it's th e w a y it 21 o f a num ber o f products. 22 works. 22 Q In addition to having done written 23 Toxicology relates to the safety o f those 23 publications, have you also presented at conferences 24 m aterials. So for any given m aterial, w e need to know 24 and so on on the issues o f toxicology and biology? 25 w hat is a safe level. You know, how m any aspirin can 25 A Yes, I have. Certainly since I set up m y Page 1072 Page 1074 1 you take that w on't harm you? That's a very sim ple 1 consultancy company, I have presented to young 2 example. 2 scientists, young toxicologists, people particularly in 3 So a toxicologist looks at issues like the 3 the cosmetic industry to give them an understanding o f 4 dose response, how safe is one aspirin versus 20? A nd 4 h o w p ro d u ct safety is evaluated for cosm etics. I've 5 the same applies to antibiotics and m aybe heart drugs, 5 done that at a num ber o f professional societies. 6 dm gs for epilepsy. 6 Q D r Hopkins, this m orning I want to talk with 7 So the toxicologist will leam to understand 7 you about a variety o f topics, including talc, Johnson 8 w hat are the side effects o f those drugs, and the basis 8 & Johnson a n d its history, Johnson & Johnson's use o f 9 o f that originally was how do they behave in rats and 9 talc, its evaluation o f safety and so on, and we're 10 m ice. W e look nowadays at how chem icals and dm gs 10 going to deal with those individually. 11 b eh av e in cell cultures system s. 11 B ut before w e do that, because some o f the 12 Y ou're essentially looking for how the drug 12 questioning over the last three days had to do w ith 13 reacts w ith b o d y o r w ith cells. 13 v ery specific docum ents th at raised questions that I 14 Q Have you personally done any work in your 14 believe need to be handled upfront, I w ould like for 15 c are er to do th at so rt o f in d ividualized assessm ent on 15 you to go through w ith m e som e specific docum ents that 16 pharm aceutical m aterials? 16 M r Panatier talked about, and then w e're going to get 17 A Yes. I m ean, going back to w hen I w orked in 17 back to the issue o f Johnson & Johnson and w ho it is 18 th e p harm aceutical industry, I w as responsible for 18 and w hat it w as doing. 19 antibiotic safety program s. I had a team o f people and 19 B ut before w e get into the individual 20 w e developed products that certain types o f synthetic 20 docum ents, I'd like to ask you can you tell the ladies 21 penicillins and antibiotics, and it m eans doing anim al 21 and gentlem en o f the jury w hether or not, from your 22 safety studies before they're launched on the market. 22 position both as a corporate representative and also as 23 Essentially, o f course, w hen you com e into 23 a scientist, a toxicologist, is it important to 24 the cosmetic industry, the data is available in the 24 evaluate the totality o f m aterials before you reach a 25 public literature, so you can read w hat others have 25 conclusion? 5 (Pages 1071 - 1074) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1075 Page 1077 1 A Yes. It's good scientific practice to, w hen 1 A No, it does not, no. 2 you're evaluating any chem ical, any substance, and not 2 Q I'm going to put a zero w ith a line through it, 3 ju st in the cosm etic industry, but the sam e applies to 3 and w e will understand that that means no. 4 foods and food additives, that you aim to find all the 4 But in connection w ith the evaluation o f this 5 data you can -- good, bad, indifferent --and read it 5 docum ent, does this provide you any information to use 6 all and com e to an overall conclusion. 6 to assess either the safety o f the talc being purchased 7 Q Likewise, can you tell us w hether or not you 7 by Johnson & Johnson at any time or the behavior 8 believe that it is im portant to look at the totality o f 8 associated with that purchase? 9 the docum ents that are being evaluated in connection 9 A No, it does not. 10 w ith the questions that have been raised here? 10 Q You m ay set that aside. 11 A Yes. The sam e i s - - the sam e situation 11 The next docum ent w e're going to look at it 12 applies. It's im p o rtan t to rev iew all docum entation. 12 is nu m b er 22. 13 Q Okay. 13 (E xhibit 22, p reviously m arked, handed to w itness) 14 The first docum ent I w ould like for you to 14 A nd this document, if you w ould take a look 15 lo o k a t -- I'm g oing to try an d do these so rt o f in 15 a t it, p lease -- 16 n u m erical o rd er to m ake it easier fo r all o f u s an d for 16 A Okay. 17 th e ju ry , b u t i f y o u w ould look, w e have the stack here 17 Q --M r Panatier asked you som e questions, but 18 o f the docum ents th at have b een adm itted into the case, 18 I'm g oing to a sk th at y o u tu rn to the flag on the 19 a n d the first do cu m en t th at w e w an t to lo o k at is 19 docum ent. 20 num ber 17. 20 A nd the question that I have for you, in 21 Here, I w ill give you m y copy. I can see it 21 connection w ith the m ine in Italy from w hich Johnson & 22 from here. 22 Johnson received its talc, does this docum ent help us 23 (Exhibit 17, previously m arked, handed to witness) 23 identify the specific m ine from which its talc was 24 A Thank you. 24 received? 25 Q Do you rem em ber this docum ent from the 25 A Yes, it does actually name the mine. Page 1076 Page 1078 1 questioning by M r Panatier? 1 Q A nd w hat is the nam e o f that mine? 2 A Yes, I do, yes. 2 A It says in one sentence: 3 Q I'm going to go to the board. 3 "All o f the J& J talc w ill com e from the 4 Now , that's a docum ent that --a 1948 4 Fontana M ine". 5 docum ent that purports to be betw een one governmental 5 Q In connection with evaluating the documents in 6 agency and another, does it not? 6 this case, is it important to distinguish between the 7 A It does, yes. 7 various m ines in the Val Chisone area? 8 Q W ho does it say it's from and w ho does it say 8 A Y es, it is. 9 it's to? 9 Q A nd w hy is that? 10 A W ell, the heading on the notepaper is the 10 A W ell, there are m any different mines. The Val 11 F ederal Security A gency, U S P u blic H ealth Service, 11 C hisone area covers a v ery large acreage. T here are 12 W ashington --yeah, W ashington D C. 12 m any, m any m ines in the Val C hisone valley, and w hat 13 Q A nd the topic o f this docum ent has to do with 13 th is identifies is the specific m ine th at the Johnson & 14 findings in the V erm ont m ines, does it not? 14 Johnson talc com es from. 15 A It does, yes. It's authored to M r H arry Ashe, 15 Q In evaluating the documents that are introduced 16 D ivision o f Industrial H ygiene in the S tate o f V erm ont, 16 in this case, w o u ld yo u tell u s w h eth er o r n ot it is 17 D ep artm en t o f P ublic H ealth, V erm ont. 17 im portant fo r the readers o f those docum ents to take a 18 Q Is there anything on that docum ent that 18 look at w hich m ine is being discussed as it --he or 19 indicate th at it is w e n t eith er to Johnson & Johnson or 19 she evaluates w hat is being talked about in the 20 to the W indsor m ines? 20 documents? 21 A N o. N o, it doesn't m ention Johnson & Johnson, 21 A It is important, yes. If we review documents 22 nor does it m ention the W indsor mine. 22 that relate to a different m ine, then it's not relevant 23 Q The docum ent itself, does it indicate in fact 23 to Johnson & Johnson. 24 anything about the identity o f the m ine that is being 24 Q Y ou m ay set that aside. 25 discussed as part o f the correspondence? 25 In evaluating the issues related to the 6 (Pages 1075 - 1078) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1079 Page 1081 1 individual m ines, M r Panatier asked you some questions 1 report to Johnson & Johnson in connection with the 2 about the variability o f the m ines and the fibers and 2 evaluation o f the H am m ondsville m ine? 3 the geology. 3 A They concluded that the reserves were 4 W ould you, as a toxicologist, rely on the 4 3.75 m illion tons o f ore containing 767,000 tons o f 5 geologists, w ho are fam iliar with the mineral 5 platy talc. 6 structures and developm ents o f the individual m ines, to 6 Q A nd rem ind us, please, w hat is platy talc and 7 provide inform ation about the type o f m inerals in an 7 w hy is that significant? 8 individual deposit? 8 A Okay. Platy talc is the kind that's used in 9 A Yes. The geologist is the expert who would 9 the cosm etic industry. Essentially, if you were to 10 understand the quality o f the m ine, or he or she w ould 10 look at a sam ple o f the talc under a m icroscope, you 11 u n d erstan d the kin d o f m in eralo lo g y in the m ine, and 11 w ould see it looks like little d in n er plates, little 12 w ould give a professional overview o f the quality o f 12 side plates. 13 th e talc from the m ine. 13 A nd the point o f the platiness is that when 14 Q During the tim e that you were working for 14 one little plate slides over another, it gives that 15 Jo hnson & Johnson, d id y o u rely o n outside geologists 15 sm ooth, silky feeling th at you're looking for on the 16 to provide you w ith inform ation concerning the m ineral 16 skin and prevents chafing. 17 content o f the m ines from w hich talc w as received? 17 Q D id they conclude in their report to Johnson & 18 A Yes, yes, I did. I was aware that the company 18 Johnson that there w ere asbestos m inerals in the 19 had chartered a specific geologist to exam ine the 19 H am m ondsville m ine? 20 quality o f the m ines involved. 20 A They concluded there w ere no asbestos materials 21 Q A nd w e're going to talk in som e detail about 21 in the H am m ondsville m ine. 22 the specific geologist and the findings. 22 Q W hat was the date on that, please? 23 But, in general, you were asked some 23 A The report is dated Decem ber 4,1970. 24 questions about docum ent 36, and I'm going to hand you 24 Q L et's turn now to num ber 41. 25 the cover page o f that. 25 (Exhibit 41, previously m arked, handed to witness) Page 1080 Page 1082 1 (Exhibit 36, previously m arked, handed to witness) 1 This is a docum ent from w hich M r Panatier 2 Can you tell us w ho it shows to have 2 read som e portions. H e asked you to read portions of 3 conducted the evaluation on the m ine reflected in 3 the document, but he did not ask you to read the 4 number 36? 4 rem ainder o f the document. 5 A The title is Colorado School o f M ines, Geology 5 If you w ill take a look at this? 6 and Ore Reserves, H am m ondsville M ine, W indsor Mineral s 6 M R PANATIER: Sorry, what? 7 Inc: 7 M S FROST: Exhibit num ber 41. 8 "The attached report completes our w ork on 8 M R PANATIER: Okay. 9 th e nature a n d m agnitude o f ... [the] ore b o d y in 9 TH E W ITNESS: Okay, I've taken a look at 10 Verm ont from w hich w e m anufacture B aby Pow der talc". 10 this, yes. 11 Q Thank you. 11 B Y M S FR O ST : 12 A nd then let's look, w hat did they report to 12 Q Okay. W ho is that from and who is that to? 13 h av e been th e objective o f the stu d y th a t w as 13 A It is from D r Nashed in Johnson & Johnson to a 14 com m issioned from the Colorado School o f M ines by 14 M r L Foster in Johnson & Johnson. 15 Jo hnson & Jo h n so n in co nnection w ith the H am m ondsville 15 Q A nd w hat does M r N ashed report to M r Foster? 16 m ine? 16 A He describes the ore manufacturing process and 17 A The Colorado School o f M ines stated that: 17 he states that: 18 "The objective o f this study w as to estimate 18 "The ore undergoes a careful purifying 19 an ore reserve tonnage and quality o f the H am m ondsville 19 process w hich includes a 36-step w ashing process to 20 mine. In conjunction w ith this, it was necessary to 20 m axim ize its content o f high lubricity platy talc ..." 21 study in detail the geology o f the m ine and the 21 Q Okay. Stop right there. Thirty-six step 22 m ineralology o f the ore m aterial. This latter 22 washing process. 23 information w ill facilitate future m ine developm ent and 23 W ould that indicate to you whether or not the 24 planning". 24 com pany w as taking efforts to ensure that it had the 25 Q A nd w hat did they ultim ately conclude and 25 finest quality o f talc to use in its baby powder? 7 (Pages 1079 - 1082) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1083 Page 1085 1 A It would, yes. 1 M r Panatier didn't ask you to read this 2 Q A nd then you read a portion o f this document 2 particular paragraph w hen you talked with him about the 3 earlier, but the paragraph I w ould like for you to read 3 document. Can you read that paragraph and explain to 4 into the record is the final paragraph o f this 4 us the significance o f it? 5 d o cu m en t, w h ic h M r P an atier d id n 't a sk y o u about. 5 A Yeah. 6 C ould you please read that for us and then 6 "I have just re-exam ined the G -l 1 sample and 7 I'll have a couple o f questions? 7 find no chrysotile in the second sample. There w as one 8 A Yeah. 8 fiber, but it gave a different diffraction pattern from 9 "W e w ill be receiving som etim e next w eek a 9 that o f chrysotile." 10 rep o rt from o u r consultant, P ro fessor F D P o o le y ... 10 Q W hat --if you would, please, remind us the 11 U n iv ersity C ollege o f W ales ... G reat B ritain. H e has 11 d iffractio n pattern? W h at is the significance o f that? 12 com pleted an exhaustive exam ination o f a sam ple o f baby 12 A W ell, w hen you're using x-ray diffraction, for 13 p o w d er b y electron m icroscopy a n d o th er sophisticated 13 exam ple, yo u g e t a num erical --a num erical v alue can 14 techniques. H is o ral report is ... it contain s no 14 be printed out or presented that identifies different 15 asbestos." 15 crystalline structures and it's given a num erical 16 Q Two things there. 16 num ber. 17 W hat type o f testing does it indicate that Dr 17 So, essentially, you get a num ber and you try 18 P o o ley co n d u cted on the b ab y p o w d er sam ple? 18 and m atch up that num ber w ith the kind o f m ineral 19 A Electron m icroscopy. 19 that's present. 20 Q W ould you rem ind us, please, w hat is the 20 Q So we now have --from the documents you 21 significance o f using electron m icroscopy versus som e 21 review ed with M r Panatier, w e have an evaluation o f the 22 other method o f evaluating the baby powder? 22 Ham m ondsville m ine in 1970 and it reflects no asbestos, 23 A W ell, electron microscopy, transmission 23 w e have the Pooley report in 1971 that reports no 24 electron m icroscopy, or other m eans o f electron 24 asbestos, and w e have the M cC rone report in 1971 that 25 m icroscopy, allows you to go right dow n to look at 25 reports no chrysotile, w hich w ould be no asbestos in Page 1084 Page 1086 1 parts per m illion o f a product. 1 the sam ple that was evaluated. 2 In other words, it is very, very 2 From your perspective on behalf o f Johnson & 3 sophisticated. 3 Johnson, w hat is the significance o f those reports from 4 Q The date again on that? 4 the outside consultants? 5 A The date on that is July 29, 1971. 5 (Tannoy sounded) 6 Q S o in l 9 7 1 ,a report from D r Pooley was, what? 6 (O ff the record at 10:30 am) 7 A It essentially said his oral report is that the 7 (O n the record at 10:33 am) 8 baby powder contains no asbestos when m easured by 8 BY MS FROST: 9 electron --electron m icroscopy. 9 Q Doctor, before the fire alarm, we were talking 10 Q Y ou m ay put that aside. 10 about w hat is the significance, from the perspective o f 11 The next docum ent I'd like you to look at is 11 Joh n so n & Johnson, to have received in the 1970 a n d '71 12 num ber 44, w hich M r Panatier asked you som e questions 12 tim e period these three different reports in connection 13 about. 13 w ith their talc? 14 (Exhibit 44, previously m arked, handed to witness) 14 A W ell, the significance was that coming from 15 If you w ould take a quick look at that, who 15 different people, it w as clear that there w as no 16 is that from? 16 asbestos in the talc that w as Johnson's Baby Pow der and 17 A It's from an outside agency, W alter M cCrone 17 Johnson's products. 18 A ssociates to -- 19 Q W hat's the date? 18 Q Y ou m ay set that particular document aside. 19 The next docum ent we are going to look at is 20 A It is dated September 3,1971. 20 Exhibit num ber 55, w hich M r Panatier talked with you 21 Q W hat does it report? 21 about. 22 A It reports the prelim inary report on the 22 (Exhibit 55, previously m arked, handed to witness) 23 Grantham ore in the Shower to Shower m edicated powders .23 B ut there was a period that he did not ask 24 Q And if you w ill turn to the next page to the 24 you to read that I'm going to ask you to take a look 25 paragraph that I have marked? 25 at. 8 (Pages 1083 - 1086) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1087 Page 1089 1 But, first o f all, num ber 55, this is the 1 provide inform ation useful in the comminution o f 2 w ritten report from D r Pooley, is it not? 2 particularly the talc ore samples, and also displays 3 A It is, yes, yes. 3 the non occurrence o f asbestiform am phiboles in the 4 Q And w hat does it reflect here on the front 4 talc ore". 5 cover? 5 Q A couple o f questions for you on that. 6 A It is --the title o f the report is from the 6 The im plication from the questioning by 7 Departm ent o f M ineral Exploitation, U niversity College 7 M r Panatier was that the photom icrographs indicated a 8 Cardiff, W ales. 8 presence o f asbestiform m ineral in the ore deposits 9 Q A nd for those o f us w ho are A m ericans and don't 9 evaluated by D r Pooley in Italy. 10 really understand the significance o f the University 10 Based on the final w ritten report, can you 11 C ollege o f C ardiff, w h y w as the U niversity C ollege o f 11 tell u s w h eth er or n o t th at is an accurate im plication? 12 C ardiff an appropriate outside consultant to retain to 12 A It doesn't reflect w hat the geologist wrote. 13 evaluate a m ineral issue o n b e h a lf o f Jo h n so n & 13 H e states very clearly: 14 Johnson? 14 "... the non occurrence o f asbestiform 15 A T hat particular university department has a 15 am phiboles in the talc ore". 16 long-standing expertise in understanding m ineralology. 16 Q Remind us, if you would, what is the 17 In th at particu lar locality, there has b een o v e r a 17 relationship betw een an am phibole and asbestos, since 18 h u n d red y ears o f m ining, m o stly coal b u t also iron ore, 18 the language there is slightly different than ju st 19 an d so m ineral expertise develops around that in the 19 asbestos? 20 universities and colleges. 20 A Yes. Am phiboles can occur in asbestosform or 21 A nd so that expertise developed into a very 21 n o t asbestosform , a n d w h at he's saying is there's no 22 high quality geology department that cam e with some 22 asbestos amphiboles present. 23 very experienced people. 23 Q The language o f that report conclusion would 24 Q A nd w e spoke yesterday and the day before and 24 seem to indicate that the photomicrographs that were 25 the day before that about D r Pooley. Is D r Pooley one 25 attached and illustrated by Plaintiffs' counsel earlier Page 1088 Page 1090 1 o f the faculty m em bers there, or did he have some other 1 this w eek related to areas o f the m ine other than the 2 relationship with the university? 2 m ine ore. 3 A He w as initially a leading researcher and then 3 W hy w ould that inform ation be provided in the 4 he became Professor in the m ineralology department. 4 context o f a report o f this nature? 5 Q Right. 5 A Essentially, i f you are entering a mine, you 6 W hat I w ould like for us to turn to, w e saw 6 will come across different kinds o f rock. It was 7 on Exhibit num ber 41 that in the paragraph that was not 7 form ed in the geology m any, m any millions o f years ago. 8 read into the record that D r Pooley had provided an 8 It's im portant w hen you're m ining that you 9 oral report that there was no asbestos. 9 know w hat else is there besides the talc ore. So it's 10 However, this is a w ritten report. Can you 10 n o t unreasonable to have a look at w hat the else is in 11 tak e a lo o k a t pag e that's B ates nu m b ered 95 a n d read 11 th e m ine a n d know w here to go a n d w here to avoid. 12 for us w hat did the ultim ate conclusion o f the w ritten 12 Q You m ay set that one aside. 13 rep o rt dem onstrate in co nnection w ith the evaluation o f 13 Let's take a look at docum ent num ber 56, 14 the talc used by Johnson & Johnson? 14 w hich you talked about w ith M r Panatier. 15 A Yeah. 15 (E xhibit 56, previously m arked, handed to w itness) 16 Professor Pooley presented a report from his 16 I f you w ould like a look at that, w hat is 17 studies in the m ine, a very detailed report, it looks 17 num ber 56? 18 like alm ost an inch thick, but he essentially 18 A It is a letter from D r Nashed o f Johnson & 19 sum m arizes on this first page: 19 Johnson. It's a m em o to the file, a report o f a 20 "In the following pages (no. 7 to 48) the 20 m eeting at the FD A in Septem ber 21, 1972. 21 Italian specim ens are system atically described as 21 Q Right. L et m e stop you there. 22 regards [to] their m ineral com position and m ode o f 22 So in 1972, the company was m eeting with the 23 intergrowth. N um erous photom icrographs taken under PP .23 FDA; correct? 24 and XN are provided with the description to mainly 24 A This is a report o f that meeting, yes. 25 illustrate the rock textures which, it is hoped, will 25 Q A nd can you rem ind us was it obligatory for 9 (Pages 1087 - 1090) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1091 Page 1093 1 Johnson & Johnson to meet with the FDA, or was it 1 Q W hat is a talc shard? 2 voluntary for them to meet with the FDA? 2 A V ery simply, talc norm ally takes the form o f a 3 A No, it's always been voluntary. 3 plate-like structure, but if you break a plate you will 4 Q In connection with this particular document, 4 end up with a piece that is not any longer the shape o f 5 look at paragraph 1. 5 a plate, b ut a piece that's broken off. 6 Who joined the Johnson & Johnson team to make 6 So a talc shard could well have a non-platy 7 this particular presentation to the FDA? 7 appearance, but it's still talc. 8 A It was Dr Pooley from University of Wales in 8 Q The docum ent goes on to describe what happened 9 the UK. 9 further in the m eeting. 10 Q And I believe you discussed one portion of this 10 H ow did they characterize how the m eeting 11 paragraph with Mr Panatier, but the portion that he 11 w e n t w ith D r L ew in? 12 didn't read I have marked at the bottom. 12 A W ell, w hen I read this, I think they were 13 Can you read for us, please, what did Dr 13 hav in g a little d ifficu lty w ith D r L ew in, becau se it 14 Pooley report to the FDA in connection with his 14 states: 15 evaluation of talc from Turin? 15 "The m eeting w as beginning to deteriorate in 16 A Yes. H e - - Dr Pooley: 16 a nonfruitful pathw ay. I interrupted to suggest a 17 "He pointed out that the mine contained two 17 com prom ise, nam ely, that D r L ew in has carried out the 18 species of chlorite ore which show x-ray peaks which 18 procedure w e h ad agreed on in the last m eeting. It was 19 could be confused with chrysotile asbestos. He also 19 one obvious that the X -ray scan d id not show definitive 20 mentioned that the Italian Mining Institute at Turin 20 chrysotile, [and] that m icroscopy was indicated, and 21 ... [had] also determined no chrysotile asbestos in the 21 since D r M cC rone is very fam iliar w ith this technique, 22 mine. He presented data on [the] SHOWER-TO-SHOWER and 22 I su g g ested th at the decisio n be m ade th at D r L ew in 23 Italian talc samples provided by Johnson & Johnson 23 w ork w ith D r M cCrone to establish the best microscopy 24 England dating back to 1949, establishing [the] absence 24 technique to be followed. D r Schaffer [FDA] obtained 25 of chrysotile asbestos by various techniques, 25 [an] ag reem en t f r o m ... [D r] L ew in an d [Dr] M cC ron e to Page 1092 Page 1094 1 (E lectron] M icroscopy, diffraction, X-ray, and 1 im plem ent this suggestion". 2 m icroscopy)". 2 Q In connection with the w ork that the FDA was 3 Q So w hat is the significance o f the inform ation 3 doing with talc, can you tell us w hether or not this 4 presented by D r Pooley to the FDA in connection with 4 indicates that Johnson & Johnson and the outside 5 this particular m eeting? 5 consultants it had retained were co-operating with the 6 A It essentially can be sum m arized that there was 6 FD A in order to evaluate the appropriate techniques for 7 no asbestos in the US Shower to Show er product and 7 the evaluation o f the talc that was being sampled? 8 there was no asbestos in the Italian talc samples from 8 A I w ould say that very m uch indicates 9 today. 9 co-operation. There's free exchange o f ideas and 10 That w as 1972 and going back to 1949. 10 suggestions to m ove things forward. 11 Q If you w ill flip to the second page, please - 11 Q A ll right. Y ou m ay set that one aside. 12 I g uess it w o u ld b e th e th ird page, I can 't count this 12 N ext docum ent w e are going to look at is 13 m orning. 13 an o th er th at y o u talk ed ab o u t w ith M r P anatier, n um b er 14 There is another paragraph w hich M r Panatier 14 63. D o you recognize that one? 15 d id n o t ask y o u to review . L o o k at the first paragraph 15 (E xhibit 63, previously m arked, handed to w itness) 16 a t the top o f th e page on p ag e 3, an d i f y o u c o u ld read 16 A Yes. 17 th a t for us, an d th en I'll have a couple o f questions? 17 Q And this one is dated what? 18 A "D r M cC rone [w ho w as also present] review ed the 18 A This one is dated June 28,1977. 19 d a ta b y D r L ew in a n d po in ted o ut a logical explanation 19 Q Now , in the portion that you talked with 20 for what D r Lew in w as seeing, nam ely, [that] the talc 20 M r Panatier about, you - he focused on som e o f the 21 h ad not one b ut three refractive indices, and D r 21 evaluation techniques, b u t w hat I w ould like to look at 22 Lew in's observations only indicated this fact and not 22 is w hat the docum ent says about the purpose o f the 23 the presence o f chrysotile. D r Stewart pointed out 23 audit m eeting in connection w ith W indsor 66 talc? 24 that D r Lew in's photographs indicated only talc 24 A It states very simply: 25 shards." 25 "To form alize the audit testing currently 10 (Pages 1091 - 1094) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1095 Page 1097 1 perform ed to ensure the absence o f asbestos in W indsor 1 Q A nd rem ind me, please, w hich m ine is that? 2 66 Talc, the following protocol is currently being used 2 A This relates to the W indsor m ine, producing 3 H 3 talc grade 66. 4 Q W hy would Johnson & Johnson be performing an 4 Q You m ay set that one aside. 5 audit o f the talc that is being used and characterized 5 N ext docum ent is docum ent num ber 81. 6 as W indsor 66? 6 (Exhibit 81, previously m arked, handed to witness) 7 A Essentially, the same reason I m entioned a 7 W hat is the date on that, please? 8 little while ago that you need to ensure that you have 8 A It's dated 20 October, 1975. 9 a clean m ine and that the m ine does not contain 9 Q To whom is it addressed and from whom? 10 asbestos. 10 A It's from W alter M cC rone A ssociates, Consulting 11 Q And w hen the phraseology that it uses -- 11 L aboratory, an d it's ad d ressed to M r R o g er M iller o f 12 A Very simple. It says: 12 the W indsor M inerals C om pany in Verm ont. 13 "... to ensure the absence o f asbestos in 13 Q Now, M r Panatier asked you some questions about 14 W in d so r 66 T a l c ..." 14 the second sentence o f the third paragraph in this 15 Q You m ay set that one aside. 15 docum ent. 16 N ext document that he talked with you about 16 W ould you please read the entirety o f that 17 a n d h a d y o u read som e portions, b u t n o t all, is n um ber 17 paragraph to give u s context? 18 69. 18 A Yeah. The first sentence was, w e discussed 19 (E xhibit 69, p reviously m arked, h an d ed to w w itness) 19 yesterday: 20 W hat is num ber 69? 20 "None o f the m ethods o f examination showed 21 A It's a report described as N ew Reagent 21 any evidence o f asbestiform m inerals present in any o f 22 System s - Plant Trial at W indsor M inerals Inc. 22 the three samples. Both light m icroscopy and 23 Q Can you tell what the date o f that is? Do we 23 transm ission electron m icroscopy indicated that the 24 have a date on that document? 24 unbeneficiated talc was som ewhat m ore fibrous than the 25 A n d i f th ere's n o t on e easily - 25 H am m ondsville talc to w hich w e ... [w ere] accustom ed". Page 1096 Page 1098 1 A W e do not. W e do not, no. 1 Q Then on the next paragraph w hat does --w hat do 2 Q Okay. 2 they conclude concerning their evaluation o f the 3 Now, I believe you spoke with M r Panatier 3 m aterials that they were looking at? 4 about some inform ation on the sort o f the first and 4 A The last sentence sim ply states: 5 last pages. 5 "No evidence o f... amphiboles were 6 But the part I wanted to focus on that we did 6 detected". 7 not look at is on page 5 o f the document. 7 Q You m ay set that one aside. 8 Looking at the first paragraph on page 5, 8 N ext document that he talked with you about 9 w hat does that report concerning the am phibole content 9 that I w ould like to look at is num ber 83. 10 in the talc product? 10 (E xhibit 83, previously m arked, handed to w itness) 11 A "There were no significant differences with 11 This is a docum ent from 1980. W hat is this 12 resp ect to th e am phibole co n ten t in the test products. 12 one? 13 T h e d etected am phibole m inerals d id n o t appear [to be] 13 A It's a docum ent dated O ctober 17,1980, and 14 ... fibrous [in] form in any o f the product sam ples." 14 it's titled Procedure for Identification and 15 Q Okay. 15 Q uantification o f A m phibole Particles in J& J Talcs 16 So no fibrous form o f amphibole in the 16 U sing O ptical M ineralogical M icroscopy. 17 p ro d u ct sam ples; is th at correct? 17 Q A nd M r Panatier asked you about the first line, 18 A That is correct. There w ere no fibers present. 18 w hich talked about the techniques u sed to evaluate talc 19 Q W hat is the significance o f that com m ent to you 19 for the freedom from asbestos m inerals, b u t he d id not 20 in your role as a toxicologist, or as a corporate 20 talk with you about the general comm ents that explain 21 representative? 21 the process. 22 A It provides an ongoing reassurance that, 22 First o f all, w hat is this particular 23 certainly in the m ine and the evaluation o f the mine, 23 docum ent? W hat is the im port o f it? 24 there is no am phibole m aterials present that are 24 A It's a Johnson & Johnson docum ent and it 25 asbestos. 25 describes the procedures that are follow ed to examine 11 (Pages 1095 - 1098) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1099 Page 1101 1 talc for freedom from asbestos. 1 talcs. 2 It reports the techniques, optical 2 I am m arking deposition Exhibit num ber 220 in 3 m icroscopy, CTFA m ethod J4 using x-ray, and, third, 3 connection w ith the docum ent num ber 84. 4 scanning electron microscopy, plus dispersive x-ray 4 (Exhibit 220 m arked for identification) 5 analysis for particles less than 5 microns. 5 Have you seen docum ent num ber 220 previously? 6 A nd then they m ove on to state General 6 A I think I have seen this, yes. Yes, yes. 7 Comments: 7 Q A nd w hat does num ber 220 tell us? 8 "The m ethod is applicable to the amphibole 8 A It says: 9 type m inerals in the size o f 5 m icrons and above. In 9 "W e are sending seven sam ples for asbestiform 10 ... all cases am phibole ob serv ed is specifically 10 analysis v ia transm ission electron m icroscopy". 11 trem olite, o r actinolite i f iron is present. T he 11 That's from W indsor M inerals Inc to Electron 12 trem olite/actinolite ob serv ed in talcs is presen t in 12 O ptics G roup at W alter M cC rone A ssociates. 13 relativ ely large particle size, e.g., one d im ension at 13 Q Right, and do the num bers there correspond with 14 2 0 m icrons o r greater". 14 the num bers reported on the report from A ugust, w hich 15 A nd then it states that: 15 is do cu m en t nu m b er 84? 16 "The particle shape is non-fibrous and ranges 16 A Yes. 17 fro m eq u an t gran u lar to th ick co lum nar elongated 17 Q Okay. 18 p articles w ith parallel prism atic cleavage". 18 I am m arking number 221. 19 Q Can you put that in plain English for those o f 19 (Exhibit 221 m arked for identification) 20 us w ho don't speak science? W hat do they m ean in that 20 M r Panatier. 21 last particular sentence there? 21 This is another docum ent related to the 22 A Sim ply they're saying that w here you find 22 samples. If you would take a look at that, please, 23 trem olite/actinolite m aterial, it is not fibrous in 23 w hat does that tell us about the samples w hose numbers 24 nature. 24 correspond to the report reflected in num ber 84? 25 It w ould be described as "chunky" m aterial, 25 A Those seven samples are described as Grade 76, Page 1100 Page 1102 1 but certainly not fibrous in nature. 1 Grade 76, Grade 76, Grade TC-700, Grade 76, Grade 2 Q A nd i f the trem olite is not fibrous, w hat is 2 TC-700, Grade 76. 3 the significance o f that? 3 Q W hat is the significance o f the Grade 76 4 A It is not asbestos. 4 designation as it relates to these particular examples? 5 Q You m ay set that aside. 5 A W ell, it clearly differentiated it from the 6 You were show n a num ber o f documents related 6 talc that's used in baby pow der, w hich is W indsor Grade 7 to m ineral sam ples that were done by the M cCrone 7 66. 8 Environm ental Services Laboratory and you talked a 8 Q W hen you review ed the transmittal letter, the 9 little bit w ith M r Panatier yesterday about the 9 schedule and the report, w hat does that tell you 10 ch aracterization o f sam ples th at have the p refix W M I, 10 concerning the evaluation and any m ineral content 11 an d I w an t to return to that. 11 related to the m inerals ev alu ated an d reported in 12 L et's look at docum ent num ber 84. 12 d o cu m en t nu m b er 84? 13 (E xhibit 84, p reviously m arked, h an d ed to w itness) 13 A Essentially, those seven m inerals that were 14 W hat is your understanding o f the 14 evaluated w ere not relating to the talc that's used in 15 sig nificance o f the d escrip to r W H I? 15 Jo hnson's B aby P o w d er o r S how er to S how er products. 16 A W MI. 16 Q W as it alw ays the case that the talc grade used 17 Q W M I, I'm sorry? 17 for baby pow der from W indsor w as G rade 66? 18 A Y eah. It describes product that's com e from 18 A G rade 66 is the reference given to talc that's 19 W indsor M inerals Inc, W M I. 19 alw ays been used for baby pow der. 20 Q A nd I am going to --w hat does the I indicate 20 Q So in evaluating the documents, it w ould be 21 as part o f the extension? 21 im portant for the jurors not ju st to m ake sure that the 22 A M y belief is that I --these were industrial 22 m ine being discussed in the docum ent is the same, but 23 talcs. 23 it's also im portant to identify that --w hether or not 24 Q Let's talk a little bit about that to m ake sure 24 the exact sam ple is in fact Grade 66 or some other 25 that we can confirm that these in fact are industrial 25 grade? 12 (Pages 1099- 1102) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1103 Page 1105 1 A Yes, there needs to be a clear differentiation. 1 BY MS FROST: 2 O nly G rade 66 is used in baby powder, and these results 2 Q B ack to the question. 3 do not relate to the talc that's used in baby powder. 3 In connection w ith the results reflected in 4 So - 4 num ber 84, do those results tell us about the mineral 5 M R PA NATIER: Can I ju st --I'm going to 5 content o f cosmetic baby powder or not? 6 state for the record, these docum ents w eren't produced 6 A No, those results have no relevance to cosmetic 7 to us here. These appear to be from the ovarian 7 baby powder. 8 production. So I never got these. 8 Q Y ou m ay set that aside. 9 But, anyw ay, I'm ju st going to state that for 9 Let's look at num ber 85. 10 the record, and go ahead. 10 (Exhibit 85, previously m arked, handed to witness) 11 M S FROST: O nly 66 w as used for b a b y -- 11 This is a docum ent that you discussed with 12 M R M AIM ON: This is M oshe M aimon. 12 M r Panatier. W h at is that docum ent? 13 Can w e have an identification o f the docum ent 13 A It's a letter from Joseph Schm idt in Johnson & 14 b y B ates n u m ber? 14 Johnson to a M r J M olnar and M r R M M iller. 15 M R PANATIER: Yeah. 15 Q Now, M r Panatier talked w ith you about some 16 M S FROST: Y eah, I'd be happy --I can read 16 m aterials in the second paragraph, b u t I w ant to talk 17 that. 17 w ith you about the first paragraph o f this docum ent. 18 H appy to do that. 18 W hat is the subject m atter being discussed in 19 (Reporter clarification) 19 this docum ent? 20 Yes, for the record, the docum ent that is 20 A Okay. It describes the W indsor M inerals raw 21 m arked as E xhibit 220 has the B ates num ber -- it has 21 talc subm issions from N ovem ber, 1986, to January, 1987. 22 tw o Bates numbers. 22 Q A nd w hat does it report as the finding 23 The first is J& J0004479. The second is 23 regarding those sam ples? 24 JNJ000065646. 24 A It states: 25 N um ber 21 has also tw o B ates num bers. The 25 "The accom panying table summarizes the Page 1104 Page 1106 1 first is J& J0004480. The second num ber is 1 am phibole m ineral content o f various talc samples 2 JNJ000065647. 2 su b m itted to date for m ic ro s c o p ic ... [exam ination]. 3 M R M AIM ON: For the record, those prefix for 3 T h e counts p e r slide w ere ob tain ed b y ... dispersion 4 B ates num ber series w ere n o t am ong the production to us 4 sta in in g ... on acid-w ashed sam ples. Few acicular, and 5 in this case. So I ju st w ant to note that. 5 no fibrous forms, were observed". 6 M S FROST: A nd which case are you referring 6 Q W hat is the significance o f that finding as it 7 to, Mosh? 7 relates to the W indsor M ineral raw talc submissions 8 M R M AIM ON: The Lanzo case. 8 during that tim e period? 9 (Reporter clarification) 9 A As describing them as no fibrous forms, they 10 The production o f documents in New Jersey 10 are suggesting and indicating that there w as no 11 w e re u n d er differen t B ates ranges. 11 asbestos in those sam ples. 12 (Reporter clarification) 12 M R PA NATIER: W hat w as the date? 13 M r Frost is on the line. H e can confirm 13 THE W ITNESS: January 30,1987. 14 that. 14 M R PANATIER: Thank you. 15 M R PANATIER: Just for the record, these 15 B Y M S FRO ST: 16 docum ents w ere indisputably n ot produced to us and 16 Q I think w e have one m ore before we get back to 17 th ey're n o t in the B ates ran g es th at w ere pro d u ced to 17 a m ore linear discussion. 18 u s, n o r w ith the B ates num bers th at w ere pro d u ced to 18 Num ber 155, which you discussed yesterday 19 US. 19 w ith M r Panatier. 20 These are clearly from the ovarian 20 (Exhibit 155, previously m arked, handed to witness) 21 production. 21 W hat is the date on num ber 155? 22 M S KAGAN: W hich w e were told was not 22 A January 14,1975. 23 relevant. 23 Q A nd w hat is that document? 24 M R PA N A T IE R : O kay. A ll right. L et's go 24 A It's a letter on W indsor M inerals letterhead. 25 ahead. 25 The author is V ernon Zeitz, M anager o f Research and 13 (Pages 1103- 1106) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1107 Page 1109 1 Developm ent -- 1 hospitals, surgical swabs, and basically medical 2 Q A nd-- 2 ingredients that are used in operations. 3 A --to R oger M iller, also at W indsor M inerals. 3 Q W here w as it located? 4 Q During this tim e period, was there a 4 A In N ew Brunsw ick, State o f N ew Jersey. 5 relationship betw een W indsor M inerals and Johnson & 5 Q Has it always been head quartered in New 6 Johnson? 6 Brunswick? 7 A Yes. Yes, W indsor M inerals w ere supplying talc 7 A In that location, yeah, in the area. 8 to Johnson & Johnson. 8 The facility has m oved slightly over the 9 Q Now, I believe you spoke w ith M r Panatier about 9 years, but within the State in that area, yes. 10 the sam ples being subm itted, including both industrial 10 Q A t what point did Johnson & Johnson get into 11 m inerals, w h ich w e re id en tified as G I, a n d W indsor, 11 the b u siness o f m aking b a b y pow der? 12 w hich is identified as W I, and the ores in the cosm etic 12 A It was one o f those things that occur just as 13 p roduction, w h ich is HC. 13 th ey occur. 14 B ut the thing that you didn't discuss w ilh 14 The products w hich were sold as adhesive 15 h im is the co n clu d in g paragraph. 15 plasters, so m etim es quite large, m aybe four inches b y 16 Can you tell us what the concluding paragraph 16 five inches, w ere sold, and som e people w ould react to 17 rep o rts in co nnection w ith the ev alu atio n o f the 17 the strong adhesive. 18 m inerals? 18 So a doctor wrote to the Johnson company in 19 A It relates to industrial in addition, but it 19 the early 1890s and suggested that he'd found that if 20 states very clearly: 20 you added a little bit o f high grade talc to the area 21 "In conclusion it can be stated with a 21 w here the adhesive m aterial had been rem oved, it would 22 greater than 99.9% certainty that the ores and 22 be tender on the skin and w ould protect the skin. 23 m aterials p ro d u c ed from the ores a t ... [the] W indsor 23 Certainly back in the day, I guess that 24 M ineral locations are free from asbestos or asbestiform 24 adhesives were m uch stronger than they are now. 25 m aterials". 25 So it was a w ay o f soothing the skin, and he Page 1108 Page 1110 1 Q W hat is the significance o f that report, from 1 thought it w as a good idea, and so Johnson started to 2 your perspective? 2 send out little tins o f this Italian talc powder with 3 A It w ould certainly indicate that the m ine was 3 boxes o f adhesive plaster material. 4 producing clean m aterial, free from asbestos. 4 Q So in the talc business starting in the 1890s? 5 Q Y ou m ay set that aside, please. 5 A I believe about 1894. 6 Let's take a five m inute break. I'll get all 6 Q W hen it begin in the business o f selling baby 7 m y stuff-organized. 7 pow der in 1984, from w here did it source the talc? 8 (O ff the record at 11:05 am) 8 A From the records that I've seen, it w as 9 (O n the record at 11:12 am) 9 originally sourced from the sam e Italian m ine we've 10 B Y M S FR O ST : 10 spoken about from Italy from the V al C hisone valley. 11 Q D r Hopkins, you introduced yourself to the 11 Q W hat are the years that the com pany used the 12 ju ry , an d w e'v e g iv en th em a n un d erstanding o f y o u r 12 talc from the V al C hisone valley in Italy? 13 b ack ground, b ut on e o f the o th er th in g s I w o u ld like to 13 A It was the m ain source up until during the war, 14 d o is to introduce Johnson & Jo h n so n to the ju ry . 14 1941, b ut there w ere exam ples o f a dom estic talc used 15 W hen was Johnson & Johnson founded? 15 a t certain tim es. 16 A A long time ago. From w hat I can understand, 16 There w ere political difficulties in the US 17 aro u n d ab o u t 1878. 17 in the D epression, and w e found that there've been 18 Q A nd w hat was the origin o f Johnson & Johnson? 18 cases w here the talc w as sourced from -- ju s t described 19 A The origin w as actually as a surgical dressings 19 as "dom estic", possibly Californian. 20 m anufacturer. 20 B ut during the war, talc shipments from Italy 21 Q W hat does that m ean for us Am ericans? 21 w ere being delayed or sunk, and so there w as a m ove 22 A W ell, actually, it's an A m erican term . 22 towards using again w hat is described as "domestic 23 Surgical dressings related to simple things 23 talc" for som e period o f tim e in the 1940s. 24 like what later became Band-Aid or adhesive plaster 24 Q S o from the 1890s u p to ro u g h ly W orld W ar II. 25 that goes on the skin, but also for use by surgeons in 25 The source o f Italy? 14 (Pages 1107-1110) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1111 Page 1113 1 A M ainly Italy w ith a little bit o f exception. 1 Q W hat is the grade from the m ine in China? 2 T here's som e indication that dom estic talc w as being 2 A It's given the title J200. 3 used probably som e tim e in the 1920s, probably during 3 Q W e've been talking an aw ful lot about talc. 4 the tim e o f the Depression. 4 W hat exactly is talc? 5 Q And then after W orld W ar II, what is your 5 A It's a m ineral. It's m ined underground, and, 6 understanding o f the source o f the talc? 6 as w ith all minerals, it has a chem ical composition, 7 A W ell, after W orld W ar II, shipm ents from Italy 7 and chem ists w ould describe it as a m agnesium silicate. 8 were getting through with no problem , and from then on 8 Q M agnesium silicate? 9 it w as used in Johnson's B aby Pow der and other baby 9 A Yes. 10 products, other products until approxim ately 1968. 10 Q In term s o f softness or hardness, where does 11 Q W hat happened in 1968 to cause the com pany to 11 talc lie on the - so rt o f the scale o f so ft to hard? 12 cease u sing th e Italian talc a n d m o v e to a different 12 A Okay. W ell, scientists rate m aterials from 13 source? 13 very h a rd to v e ry so ft on a scale. So ju s t about the 14 A W ell, at that tim e, the com pany had validated a 14 hardest m aterial know n to science is diam ond. 15 dom estic source o f talc from a m ine in the S tate o f 15 B ut at the other end o f the scale the 16 V erm ont, w h ich w as ow n ed b y the com pany, an d th ey had 16 m aterial talc is p retty w ell one o f the softest 17 q u alified it to use a g rade o f talc w h ich w as later 17 m aterials know n to science. 18 k n o w n a s G rade 66, a n d th at approved g rade w a s used 18 Q D oes talc com e in different varieties or types? 19 instead o f im porting from Italy. 19 A Yes. Yes. It depends on the m ine and the 20 Q Now, the type o f talc that was used from Italy, 20 geology, and that's w hy, w hen you're looking for 21 y o u ju st m entioned the W indsor 66 Grade. 21 cosm etic talc, you're looking for a product that m eets 22 W as there a specific grade o f talc used by 22 the requirements o f cosmetic talc, in softness and 23 Johnson & Johnson in connection with its baby powder 23 platiness. 24 products that it received from Italy? 24 Q W e've talked about softness o f talc. W hat does 25 A Yes, right the way through it always described 25 that actually m ean in terms o f texture or usage? Page 1112 Page 1114 1 as "five zeros", w hich is 00000 talc. 1 A Sim ply, the p o int o f talc is you pu t it on y our 2 That was the grade that was used from Italy. 2 skin. It should feel soft. 3 Q Y ou said that there had been a m ine qualified, 3 W ords like "silkiness", "lubriciousness" -- 4 if I understood your term inology. 4 those w ords are u sed to describe how it feels on the 5 W hat do you m ean by that in connection with 5 skin. 6 the change from the Italian m ine to a second m ine? 6 Q W hat does "lubriciousness" m ean? 7 A Yeah. The m ine in the State o f V erm ont was, 7 A It's a lo v ely w o rd , isn 't it? 8 obviously, w hen you open a new m ine, it takes tim e to 8 Q It is. 9 ensure that the quality o f the talc is the kind o f 9 A It m eans oily alm ost. A lm ost like a lubricant. 10 grade that you're looking for and w ill m eet the 10 It h as th a t v e ry soft, o ily feel w h e n it's 11 sp ecification yo u req u ire in term s o f its feel its 11 p la c e d o n th e s k in a n d r u b b e d o n th e sk in . 12 platiness, freedom from un w an ted m aterials. 12 Q I'm g o in g to h an d y o u w h a t I have m ark ed as 13 So that's part o f the m ine qualification. 13 E x h ib it 222. 14 Q W e'll talk about the m ine process in a little 14 (E xhibit 222 m arked for identification) 15 b it m ore detail shortly. 15 W hat is that? 16 But how long did the com pany use the Verm ont 16 A It's a p ile o f rock. It lo o k s like talc. It 17 m ine as the source fo r the talc th at it u se d in b ab y 17 certain ly looks lik e talc. 18 p o w d er a n d its o ther cosm etic b o d y pow ders? 18 W h en talc is first m in ed , it's b ro k en d o w n 19 A From approxim ately 1968 to about 2003. 19 into baseball, tennis ball size pieces, and this is 20 Q A nd w hat did it do in 2003? 20 w h at talc looks like w hen it first com es out o f the 21 A There w as another m ine source qualified, which 21 m in e an d is b ro k en d o w n in to ten n is b all size pieces. 22 has tended to be used globally. N ot just for Johnson & 22 Q C an you turn that around? 23 Johnson in the U nited States, but in AsiaPacific 23 M ad am V ideographer, can y o u get that, or is 24 countries and in Europe, and the grade m oved to a very 24 it to o fa r aw ay? 25 sim ilar high purity grade from a m ine in China. 25 V ID EO G R A PH E R : I can try ... 15 (Pages 1111-1114) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1115 Page 1117 1 Okay. 1 free o f asbestos. T hey're generally very w hite in 2 M S FRO ST: G ot it? 2 color, very pure. 3 Q A nd i f you'll turn to the second page, w hat 3 Industrial grades, as I said before, talc is 4 does that show? 4 a m agnesium silicate, but there are other m agnesium 5 A W ell, that shows w hat talc looks like under a 5 silicates that are found and they can quite 6 m icroscope. It's a general field, a high field, so it 6 legitim ately be used in industrial grades o f talc. 7 shows the talc particles w hich are recognized to have 7 Q Y ou m entioned that talc can be used in certain 8 w hat we describe as a "platy structure". They look 8 fo o d stuffs. A re y o u fam iliar w ith the F D A 's 9 like little side plates, dinner plates. 9 determination o f the use o f certain food products as 10 Q Can you turn that around? Can you point to 10 being safe? 11 w h a t you're talk in g about so th at the ju r y can see? 11 A Yes, I am, yes. 12 So it's the -- 12 Q Can talc be used in foods based on its safety 13 A In its crystal structure, it's the one this 13 a n d th e recognition o f its safety? 14 side. T hat's a b ro a d view o f w h at a group o f talc 14 A W ell, providing the talc quality specification 15 p articles lo o k like u n d er a m icroscope. 15 m eets the F D A standards, it is allow ed to be u sed in 16 If you raise the m icroscopic field to get a 16 food contact m aterials sold in the U nited States, and 17 h ig h er po w er, y o u can g e t a pictu re o f w h a t on e o r tw o 17 indeed in other countries. 18 talc particles lo o k like. 18 Q W hat sort o f standards does the FDA have for 19 Essentially, w e describe them as "plate-like" 19 talc for use in foods? 20 or "platy". 20 A The FD A has a specification w hich describes the 21 Q A fter it is ground, w hat does it look like? 21 quality o f the talc. 22 A W ell, after it's ground, it has the appearance 22 It describes the param eters or features such 23 that w e described a m inute ago o f little plate-like 23 as whiteness, fineness, freedom from certain materials, 24 particles. 24 including freedom from asbestos materials. 25 Q Are there uses for talc other than for baby 25 Q I'm going to hand you w hat I have m arked as Page 1116 Page 1118 1 powder? 1 Exhibit 223. 2 A Yes, talc has long been used as an industrial 2 (Exhibit 223 m arked for identification) 3 m aterial. In fact, I believe approxim ately at least 3 Can you tell us w hat that is? 4 90, 92 per cent o f the talc that's m ined around the 4 A It's a definition o f w hat are called "GRAS 5 w orld is used in industrial applications, and some o f 5 substances". G-R-A-S. 6 those include, o f course, paper. It's a filler in 6 Q A nd w hat is a GRA S substance? 7 paper that w e use. 7 A A GRA S substance is a term used within the 8 It's used in used in autom atic tires as a 8 U nited States and it's kind o f adopted elsew here around 9 filler w ith the rubber. It's used in som e packaging 9 the world. It stands for G enerally Recognized As Safe. 10 m aterials. It's used in roofing m aterials for the 10 Q A nd looking at num ber 223, w hat does this tell 11 ro o fin g m aterial th at goes on m any roofs. It's also 11 u s ab o u t w h a t the F D A has concluded about talc an d its 12 u se d in a nu m b er o f other applications. 12 use as a generally recognized safe substance? 13 Food, for exam ple -- certain foods are 13 A It states that it is recognized under a certain 14 perm itted to have talc added to them . I believe it's 14 rep o rt from 1979 as approved as a G R A S substance. 15 in ch ew ing gum , a n d in som e countries rice is treated 15 Q A nd if w e look at the bottom o f the page on 16 w ith talc to p re v en t it stick in g together. 16 page 1 o f E xhibit 223, w here it talks about definitions 17 Q Let me stop you there. 17 o f labels, can y ou read fo r us, please, w hat the FD A 18 Is there a difference in the uses o f the 18 has said in connection w ith the G enerally R ecognized As 19 industrial talc that you've been describing and 19 Safe characteristics o f various products, not ju st 20 cosm etic talc? 20 talc? 21 A Yes. 21 A Yes. A Generally Recognized A s Safe substance 22 Q H ow is it used in cosm etic talc? 22 is defined as: 23 A W ell, the cosm etic, and som etim es w e talk about 23 "A food substance that is not subject to 24 cosmetic or pharmaceutical talcs, are o f a very high 24 prem arket review and approval by FD A because it is 25 grade, and in fact one o f the requirem ents is they're 25 generally recognized, by qualified experts, to be safe 16 (Pages 1115-1118) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1119 Page 1121 1 under the intended conditions o f use". 1 if asbestos were present, it w ould be shown up by the 2 Q W e've talked about the use o f talc in baby 2 evaluation that was done from approxim ately 1946 3 pow der going all the w ay back to the 1890s. 3 onwards. That w as a m icroscopic examination. 4 In the tim e that Johnson & Johnson has been 4 Q L et me hand you w hat I have m arked as Exhibit 5 m anufacturing baby powder, w hat has been the form ula or 5 224. 6 the com ponents o f the baby powder? 6 (Exhibit 224 m arked for identification) 7 A Baby pow der comprises typically 99 per cent 7 W hat is this document? 8 talc pow der with a sm all trace o f fragrance. 8 A It is a specification, and a specification is a 9 Historically, there was addition o f other 9 description o f w hat a product should look like, feel 10 ingredients. O ne that's com e to light is a m aterial 10 like and the chem ical and various physical features o f 11 c alled sodium sesqui citrate, w h ich is a -- it's 11 th a t product. 12 actu ally used as a food additive; it's ad ded in table 12 And this relates to powdered talc used by 13 sa lt to stop salt from clogging in the little holes 13 Jo h n so n & Johnson. 14 w hen you invert your salt on your food. 14 Q Okay. 15 Q W hat was the point o f using it in baby powder. 15 A nd w e've talked a little bit about 16 A Essentially, basically, to stop any baby powder 16 specifications over the last few days, but w hat is a 17 fro m clogging in the little holes. 17 specification and w hat is the significance o f having a 18 Q Does Johnson & Johnson still use sodium sesqui 18 specification th at relates to a raw product? 19 citrate in th e u se o f b ab y pow der? 19 A A specification describes w hat a product should 20 A No. It was something that was done just for a 20 look like, feel like and any chem ical studies that you 21 few years, b ut I think it w as discontinued m any, m any 21 do on it. 22 years ago. 22 So, for exam ple, it describes it as: 23 Q As it relates to the baby powder, has Johnson & 23 "... a very fine, w hite pow der, free from 24 Johnson historically done anything to test the powder 24 g rittin e s s..." 25 for m inerals that w eren't talc, w hether w e're talking 25 So if you received from the factory or from Page 1120 Page 1122 1 about asbestos or som ething else? 1 the m ining site a dark brow n pow der w hich felt gritty, 2 A W ell, w hen you evaluate baby powder by 2 that clearly w ould not m eet the specification. 3 techniques such as x-ray diffraction, you can determine 3 A nd w e can look at other features o f the 4 if there are other m inerals present. 4 specification, such as the w ater content or its 5 You w ould pick those up if they were present. 5 solubility in acid, or how fine it is. 6 Q W hy would you not w ant other m inerals present 6 So those are all described on the 7 in the baby powder? 7 specification to ensure that w hen you receive a product 8 A For two reasons. One, they may have properties 8 from the m ine or from the factory, the sam e product is 9 that were unpleasant on the skin and didn't feel good; 9 the sam e every tim e and it m eets the quality required. 10 and, tw o, they m ay be harm ful o r toxic. 10 Q W ould it be fair to say that a specification is 11 So you basically try to avoid any material 11 u se d to ensure th at a sup p lier is providing to the 12 th a t is unw anted, e ith e r b ecause it's harm ful o r 12 purchaser the product th at it w ants to buy? 13 d o esn 't feel g o o d o n the skin. 13 A It is. The specification is generally agreed 14 Q Y ou m entioned earlier lubricity. H ow does 14 betw een the purchaser and the supplier. 15 n on-talc m ineral affect the lu bricity o f the baby 15 The supplier is advised: this is w hat we 16 powder? 16 w ant. A nything you send to us should m eet this 17 A If you have particles that are, for example, 17 specification. 18 needle-like, sharp o r granular, th ey w o u ld n o t give 18 Q N ow the docum ent that w e are looking at, num ber 19 th at nice silky, sm ooth feeling. It w ould feel like 19 224, w hat is the date on the docum ent? 20 rubbing sandpaper on your skin. 20 A The date on this particular version is 21 Q H ow long has Johnson & Johnson been evaluating 21 F ebruary 2 2 ,1 9 5 5 . 22 the talc in its baby powder to determine w hether there 22 Q N ow , attached to it there are som e other items 23 is any additional m ineral or contam inant in the ore? 23 that appear to have an earlier date. 24 A Looking back through the records, the oldest I 24 W hat are the m aterials that are attached to 25 could find was one w hich has a cover note stating that 25 Exhibit 224? 17 (Pages 1119-1122) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1123 Page 1125 1 A This is a guide, w hich is dated A ugust 14, 1 A It's a picture o f three types o f com m ercial 2 1946, from a book, and this gives guidance to the 2 asbestos, crocidolite, am osite and chrysotile. 3 people evaluating the specification as to w hat talc 3 Q I f you would, please, flip that around and 4 should look like for cosm etic purposes, and indeed w hat 4 let's show that to the jury. 5 it should not look like for cosmetic purposes. 5 How does that differ from the plate-like 6 So there are several photographs here. 6 version o f the talc? 7 Q Does it provide anything in this specification 7 A W ell, clearly, each o f those different types o f 8 that relates to the presence o f asbestos or other 8 asbestos are needle-like in structure. They look like 9 m inerals? 9 needles. 10 A It doesn't m ention the w ord "asbestos" back in 10 Q A nd I'm going to hand you back the previous 11 1946, b u t as an alternative it u ses the term 11 v iew o f talc. 12 "acicular", A -C -I-C -U -L -A -R , a n d th at is the L atin nam e 12 Can you hold those up together? 13 fo r a needle. 13 A So the talc is the classic plate-like structure 14 So it's saying th at there sh o u ld n o t be any 14 under the m icroscope, w hich is clearly very different 15 needle-like crystals present. 15 from n eedles u n d e r the m icroscope. 16 Q W ould an acicular fiber include asbestos, or 16 Q Okay. Y ou can set those aside. 17 w o u ld it n o t include asbestos? 17 To your knowledge, has Johnson & Johnson ever 18 A Asbestos w ould be - fall under the heading o f 18 b een in the b u siness o f selling asbestos? 19 a n acicular fiber. 19 A No. J& J has never sold asbestos. 20 Q Based on your review o f the documents, how far 20 Q Has Johnson & Johnson ever been in the business 21 b a ck does the req uirem ent to b e free from acicular 21 o f selling products to w hich they intentionally added 22 fibers extend? 22 asbestos? 23 A W ell, w ith the cover note I've seen for this 23 A No, Johnson & Johnson has never been selling 24 Exhibit 224, it described it as being relevant from 24 products with intentional addition o f asbestos. 25 1946 onwards. 25 Q The 1946 and 1955 specifications that we were Page 1124 Page 1126 1 Q So since at least 1946, Johnson & Johnson has 1 talking about, did those specifications go specifically 2 been evaluating the talc it received from its supplier 2 to health-related issues, or were they developed in 3 to determine whether it m et the specification to be 3 connection w ith broader concerns concerning the talc 4 free from acicular particles or not; is that correct? 4 and the baby pow der products? 5 A That is correct, yes. 5 A T hey w ere developed to ensure that the quality 6 Q And w hat is the significance o f that from your 6 o f the talc m et the requirements o f the company. 7 perspective as it relates to the purity o f the baby 7 W e said earlier that the talc should be free 8 pow der over tim e? 8 from unw anted m aterials; that it should feel sm ooth and 9 A It m eans that, certainly since 1946, probably 9 silky on the skin. 10 ev en earlier, i f yo u 've taken talc from the 000 0 0 m ine, 10 So certainly by avoiding what we described as 11 th e talc w o u ld n o t contain asbestos. 11 needle-like structures, th en you 're n ot going to g et 12 Q Is talc acicular? 12 that unpleasant, prickly feeling on the skin. 13 A No, talc is platy in structure. It looks like 13 Q As part o f your work as an employee and then as 14 little -- little d in n er plates. 14 a consultant on the safety issues for the com pany, are 15 Q Now , you show ed us the pictures o f talc and the 15 y ou fam iliar w ith the quality control testing that 16 dinner plates. 16 Johnson & Johnson perform ed on the talc that it used? 17 How does asbestos look if you see it under a 17 A Yes, I am, yes. 18 m icroscope? 18 Q If you would, give us ju st a short overview 19 A Generally, there are different kinds o f 19 about the steps that J& J took to ensure the talc it 20 asbestos, but generally they all have a very sim ilar 20 used w as free o f asbestos, and then we're going to talk 21 appearance under a m icroscope. T hey look like needles. 21 about those various steps in som e detail? 22 Very, very different from the plate structure. 22 A Okay. 23 Q Let me hand you what I have marked as 225. 23 W ell, the first part is to ensure that the 24 (Exhibit 225 m arked for identification) 24 m ine from w hich the talc is obtained is not going to 25 W hat is this? 25 allow contam ination o f the product with asbestos. So 18 (Pages 1123 - 1126) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1127 Page 1129 1 to ensure that the quality o f the ore coming out o f the 1 company. 2 m ine is talc that m eets the cosm etic pharmaceutical 2 A nd he w as involved in co-ordinating m any 3 grade. 3 approaches, dealing w ith geologists, dealing with 4 Then the next stage is to examine the quality 4 outside agencies, dealing w ith regulators, dealing with 5 o f the talc after it's been taken from the m ine, ground 5 facilities w ho w ould evaluate the talc. 6 dow n into the fineness that you require for body 6 A nd one o f his roles was to regularly visit 7 powders, and then going into packaging, being cleaned 7 talc facilities to ensure that the m ine was doing what 8 up and ready for sale. 8 w as required o f them. 9 So there are two issues there. One is to 9 I do rem em ber he w ent to the China m ine many, 10 ensure the m ine is clean; and then ensure the product 10 m any years ago to help open that up and help qualify 11 is clean. 11 it. 12 Q Let's talk first about the m ines. 12 He visited the Verm ont m ine in Italy and -- 13 You said that the m ines had to be evaluated, 13 sorry, the V erm ont m ine in the U n ited States --an d the 14 an d you used the w ord "qualified" earlier. 14 m ine in Italy. 15 W hat steps did Johnson & Johnson take to 15 So he was a regular visitor to w ork with the 16 evaluate a m ine? 16 people and ensure that they produced the kind o f 17 A W ell, w e've alluded to som e o f that in the past 17 product that Johnson & Johnson required. 18 hour. 18 Q N ow , w e've talked about the m ine in Italy and 19 It's im portant to get the involvem ent o f 19 the m ine in V erm ont and the m ine in China. 20 expert geologists to look at what's going on in the 20 D id Johnson & Johnson ever evaluate any other 21 m ine, to look at the type o f talc that's available in 21 m ines that it concluded didn't m eet its qualifications 22 the m ine, and to look at m aterials that you don't w ant 22 for use in the baby pow der product? 23 in the m ine to ensure that they can be avoided by the 23 A W ell, the w ay that that was done w as that, 24 miners. 24 certainly once Professor Pooley had reported on the 25 So that's part o f the qualification o f the 25 Verm ont m ine and the Italian mine, a program was Page 1128 Page 1130 1 mine. 1 considered and set in place to look at the talc that 2 W hen you look at the quality o f the talc, you 2 was being used by non-US affiliates around the world. 3 look at it by the best scientific techniques available, 3 T hat was an international program done on a 4 look at it m icroscopically, w ith x-ray diffraction, 4 regular basis to ensure that the talc that w as being 5 scanning m icroscopy, and whatever other techniques 5 used m et the same quality standards as in the United 6 you've got to ensure that the product is pure. 6 States, w hether talc w as sold in Philippines, in 7 Q How did Johnson & Johnson go about that process 7 England or India. 8 o f determining whether the talc was pure in the ores 8 So there was a regular audit o f the product 9 from which it obtained its talc? 9 that was being used in those countries. 10 A By involving outside expert geologists. A s 10 Q Did M r Ashton ever evaluate mines or products 11 w e 'v e alluded to earlier, C olorado School o f M ines w ere 11 a n d conclude th at th ey w eren 't a fit for Johnson & 12 involved w ith the V erm ont m ine and later, in 1972, 12 Johnson? 13 P ro fessor P oo ley fro m the G eology D epartm ent o f the 13 A N o, he never actually had to do that. 14 U niversity o f W ales w as also involved in the V erm ont 14 The m ines that were being used m et at the 15 m in e review . 15 tim es those quality standards required. 16 Q You spoke over the last several days about a 16 Q W e talked about the change from Italy to 17 g entlem an b y the n am e o f B ill A shton. W hat 17 V erm ont. W hy w as it th at Johnson & Johnson m ade the 18 involvem ent, i f any, d id M r A sh to n have in evaluating 18 decision in the late 1960s to change the source o f its 19 m ines to determ ine w hether they w ere appropriate for 19 ore from V al C hisone in Italy to V erm ont? 20 use by Johnson & Johnson? 20 A I've never actually seen the w ritten records. 21 A W ell, M r Ashton was a senior scientist in 21 M y understanding, having spoken to M r Ashton, is that 22 Johnson & Johnson. W e called him "M r Talc". 22 taking a dom estic source from Verm ont and packing it in 23 H e'd been em ployed from approxim ately 1950 23 the State o f N ew Jersey is a lot easier than shipping 24 until he retired as a consultant, I think about the 24 m any thousands o f m iles from Italy. 25 year 2003. So he had a long history o f talc in the 25 It w as a case of: w e have a good m ine nearby, 19 (Pages 1127- 1130) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1131 Page 1133 1 let's use that. 1 Q I'm going to hand you w hat I have m arked as 2 (Reporter requested phones to be m uted) 2 226. 3 Q L et's m ove, then, from the question o f how 3 (Exhibit 226 m arked for identification) 4 Johnson & Johnson qualified a m ine, and let's talk 4 Can you tell us w hat is this? 5 about the testing that it did o f the ore -- hang on a 5 A It's a letter from a Johnson & Johnson employee 6 second? 6 w ith the Baby Products Com pany to another Johnson & 7 M R PANATIER: Hey, folks on the phone -- 7 Johnson employee. 8 M S FRO ST: Yeah. W hoever's on the phone, 8 It's dated M ay 4, 1977, and the subject is 9 please put your phone on m ute. W e're getting feedback 9 W indsor 66 Talc Specification, Proposed Asbestos 10 from one or m ore o f you. 10 R equirem ents. 11 Q W e'll try that again. 11 Q Let me stop you there. 12 A Okay. 12 This is a 1977 letter, but did Johnson & 13 Q Y ou m entioned that, in addition to evaluating 13 Jo h n so n have a talc specification fo r the W indsor 66 14 the m ine and determ ining the purity o f the ore, that 14 m ine prior to 1977? 15 Jo hnson & Johnson also d id testin g -- the subsequent 15 A Yes, it did. 16 product. 16 Q In connection w ith that specification, w hat was 17 So let's break that into tw o parts. First, 17 the expectation for the quality o f the talc received 18 th e ore, a n d th en w e w ill talk ab o u t the finished 18 fro m the supplier a t V erm ont? 19 product. 19 A T hat it should be free from asbestos. 20 W hat did Johnson & Johnson do to test the 20 Q Now, the docum ent that we are looking at here, 21 talc o re itself? 21 num ber 226, it actually uses specifically the w ord 22 A The talc ore w as evaluated by a regular audit. 22 "asbestos", does it not? 23 Initially, obviously, w hen you're developing a new 23 A It does, yes, yes. 24 m ine, you do a lot o f testing to ensure that the 24 Q W as that a new requirem ent in 1977? 25 quality o f the talc m eets the required quality and 25 A T hat particular w ord was relatively new in 1977 Page 1132 Page 1134 1 specification. 1 on the specification. 2 Once the m ine is operating and it's producing 2 Q W ould the specification, prior to 1977, have 3 talc, then the requirem ent then is to confirm that the 3 encom passed m aterials that included asbestos, or w ould 4 talc has not changed as you progress through the mine. 4 it not have? 5 So there was a regular audit on the talc 5 A It w ould have included, to ensure that the 6 that's been produced from the m ine. That's a m ine 6 product was free from asbestos prior to this document. 7 audit. 7 Q B ased on your review o f the materials, w hy was 8 Q W as there ongoing testing that perm itted 8 it that Johnson & Johnson changed the wording during 9 Johnson & Johnson to evaluate the quality o f the talc 9 the tim e period 1977? 10 ore from the m ines that it used as -- w as provided by 10 A M y understanding, and speaking to people, was 11 its suppliers? 11 to en su re th at there w as absolute clarity and 12 A There w as a program , or is still a program , to 12 clarification betw een the m ine and the purchaser, 13 evaluate th e ore o n a qu arterly basis. So that, as yo u 13 Jo hnson's B aby P roducts, th at the products should be 14 progress through the m ine, that is confirm ed on a 14 free from asbestos, and used the w ord "asbestos", 15 q u arterly b asis th at th e m ine is still pro d u cin g the 15 rath er th an an y o th er w ord, such as "acicular". It 16 co rrect grade o f talc. 16 m oved from acicular to clearly stating asbestos. 17 Q W hat's the significance o f the grade o f talc? 17 Q W hat was the frequency o f the testing that was 18 A W ell, the grade o f talc, as w e've talked about 18 associated w ith the evaluation o f the W indsor 66 19 in the --w hen w e use the w ord "specification", relates 19 m aterials? 20 to its purity, its w hiteness, its softness, feel on the 20 A M y recollection is that that testing was done 21 skin, and absence o f unw anted m aterials and m inerals. 21 quarterly to evaluate as it progressed through the 22 Q Did Johnson & Johnson have a specification for 22 m ine, that on a quarterly basis the product still m et 23 the W indsor 66 talc, specifically? 23 the requirem ents to be free from asbestos, and indeed 24 A Yes. There's a separate specification for that 24 m et the other quality specifications. 25 talc. 25 Q W hat other quality specifications were there? 20 (Pages 1131 -1134) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 A There's quite a long list. Page 1135 Page 1137 1 control, the regular quality control, as a check on the 2 It lists the m axim um am ount o f moisture you 2 pow der before it's shipped for filling. 3 can have. It describes the m icroscopic structure, free 3 Q W hen did Johnson & Johnson begin to test baby 4 from m aterials that are unw anted and platy-type, it 4 pow der and Show er to Show er products? 5 describes its bulk density, it describes its color, 5 A In the talc form , certainly in the '60s, '70s, 6 fineness, m axim um limits for heavy m etals, and the 6 it was part o f the process specification. 7 am ounts o f w ater soluble iron. 7 Q W ere there standard methods that Johnson & 8 So there's a long list o f quality 8 Johnson used for its testing o f the talc? 9 descriptions that the product should meet. 9 A Yes, and over the years those methods developed 10 Q W e keep talking about w hether or not there is 10 as science and technology im proved and various m ethods 11 asbestos in talc a n d specifications th at th ere n o t be 11 have b een used. 12 a n y asbestos o r acicular particles o r anything o f th at 12 Q M ore specifically, did Johnson & Johnson have a 13 nature in th e talc. 13 standard m eth o d for testin g talc specifically for 14 W hy w ould one be concerned about the 14 asbestos? 15 ex istence o f those m aterials in co n junction w ith talc? 15 A W ell, originally, yes, back in the 1960s it 16 A W ell, i f those m aterials w ere present, if there 16 w ould have been optical m icroscopy, and certainly a 17 w ere asbestos m aterials present, th en it w o u ld be 17 com petent optical m icroscopist can see i f there's 18 d escrib ed a s n o t m eeting the specification. 18 asbestos presen t u n d er a g o o d m icroscope i f y o u look at 19 A nd certainly at that tim e, people were 19 enough slides. 20 beginning to be aware that the quality o f talc should 20 Then going forward, you can look at some of 21 be asbestos free. 21 the other techniques that have been developed, such as 22 Q Can you describe for us the finishing process 22 x-ray diffraction and transm ission electron microscopy. 23 that's associated w ith m aking the talc ore appropriate 23 Q W e keep talking about those terms. 24 to go into a finished baby pow der product? 24 Doctor, I have m arked an Exhibit 226 that - 25 A Yes. K eeping it very sim ple, the talc is talc 25 MS KAGAN: 227. Page 1136 Page 1138 1 rock, w hich w e see the baseball, tennis ball size 1 MS FROST: 227. Let me have that back, 2 pieces. They're ground dow n to fine particles. 2 please. Thank you. 3 Y ou're aim ing to get as m any o f the 3 (Exhibit 227 m arked for identification) 4 plate-like particles as possible and m inim ize the 4 Both sides have been lucky to have M s Kagan 5 num ber o f sm all, tiny particles that don't give you 5 here to keep us honest on our numbers. W e are looking 6 that nice feel. 6 at num ber 227. 7 So a process is set up called "flotation", 7 Q Just a sort o f orient us, when you are talking 8 w hereby the ground material is placed into a water 8 about these different types o f m achines that do 9 bath, essentially. Bubbling agents or foaming agents 9 testing, I am a visual person, so it's helpful for me 10 are added and the platy talc, the highest quality, the 10 to have som e idea o f w hat it is that you're talking 11 nicest, so ftest talc, rises to th e to p an d sits on the 11 about, an d I th in k th at w o u ld pro bably ben efit the 12 b ubbles at th e top o f the b ath , a n d th at is filtered 12 ju ro rs as w ell. 13 o f f o r taken off, an d an y m aterial th at is n o t o f that 13 Can you explain for us what these different 14 q u ality sinks to the b o tto m a n d is rem oved. 14 m achines you have described look like, and in sort o f 15 So w hat you're aim ing for is as high as 15 sim plified term s w h at is the difference o f w h at th ey 're 16 possible am ount o f the plate-like particles, because 16 looking for? 17 th at's w h a t you 're looking fo r to give the nice, silky, 17 A I m ean, the classic one in the m iddle is 18 sm ooth feel. 19 Q Okay. You can put that one away. 18 optical m icroscopy, and this is a picture o f a very up 19 to date, sophisticated m odel, certainly better than the 20 So w e've now talked about the m ine and the 20 ones I rem em ber from school, and that is a high pow ered 21 ore. 21 m icroscope that allow s you to look at the talc in the 22 Did Johnson & Johnson also test the finished 23 baby powder product itself to determine whether there 22 same way we looked at some o f those pictures today. 23 Y ou can see fine particles. 24 w as any asbestos in the product? 24 But, o f course, technology has moved on, and 25 A Yes. T hat was part o f the regular audit 25 there are other methods. This one is a picture o f a 21 (Pages 1135 - 1138) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1139 Page 1141 1 x-ray diffractom eter, w hich m easures x-ray diffraction, 1 Better? W orse? M ore comprehensive? Less 2 and that scans the talc particles and gives a printout 2 comprehensive? H ow w ould you describe it? 3 o f a num erical reference num ber, and that allows you to 3 A It's m ore com prehensive. 4 define w hat kind o f m inerals are present. 4 The CTFA m ethod requires to do tw o tests. 5 Again, very sim ply, the transm ission electron 5 O ne, ev aluate u sin g x -ray diffraction, an d i f th ere's 6 m icroscope allows you to look for fine, fibrous-like 6 any question, to follow up w ith polarized light 7 particles under the m icroscope. 7 m icroscopy. 8 They have a very, very high sensitivity. 8 The policy in Johnson & Johnson is to go a 9 T hey will w ork dow n to parts per million. 9 step further and have a product evaluated by 10 Q Is the transm ission electron m icroscope able to 10 transm ission electron m icroscopy. 11 g e t d ow n alm o st to a cellular b asis? Is th at w h at 11 Q How often was the talc that was used in baby 12 I understand? 12 p o w d e r an d S how er to S how er tested w ith Johnson & 13 A It will go down pretty well, yes. 13 Joh n so n 's internal testin g m ethods, starting in the 14 The Food and Drug A dm inistration used 14 1970s? 15 tran sm ission electron m icroscopy in th eir au d it o f 15 A The test m ethod was tested every two weeks on 16 products on the U S m arket in 2009, and they claim the 16 sam ples, every tw o w eekly. 17 d etection sensitivity o f .04 p arts p e r m illion. 17 Q W ho perform ed that testing? 18 Q Okay. 18 A Generally, outside consultants. 19 A So it's pretty sophisticated. 19 A s I've said before, expensive equipm ent 20 Q All right. Y ou can put that aside. 20 needs training and expertise in how to use it. So 21 Y ou spoke yesterday, I believe it was, 21 com panies like M cC rone Laboratories, EM Associates wei e 22 although it m ay have been the day before, with 22 used to give an outside opinion as to the quality o f 23 M r Panatier about a very specific testing m ethod called 23 the talc using their equipment. 24 J4-1, and w e looked at w hat is in the record as Exhibit 24 Q Now , w hen w e talk about the cost o f the 25 num ber 162. L et me hand that back to you. 25 equipm ent, you w ould agree w ith me, w ould you not, that Page 1140 Page 1142 1 (Exhibit 162, previously m arked, handed to witness) 1 Johnson & Johnson could probably have afforded to buy 2 W e're going to talk about that in detail in a 2 its ow n equipm ent; right? 3 m inute. 3 A They certainly could, yes, yes. 4 But in addition to this CTFA m ethod, did 4 Q So w hy didn't they? 5 Johnson & Johnson have any internal testing procedures 5 A W ell, it's relatively inexpensive to have a 6 that included review by the x-ray diffraction, optical 6 scan evaluated. 7 m icroscope and/or transm ission electron m icroscope, 7 B ut the m ain reason, to m y understanding, is 8 like the ones you ju st showed to the jury? 8 that to get a good result and to understand how to use 9 A Yes. A lthough J& J didn't necessarily in the 9 this equipm ent is one that requires expertise and 10 early days have som e o f the sophisticated equipm ent 10 training. 11 in-house, it w a s the com pany's p o lic y to u se outside 11 It's not som ething that I could do. I could 12 ex p erts w h o w ere --h a d ex p ertise in usin g x -ray 12 n o t do th at k ind o f w ork. I can look at an optical 13 d iffractio n a n d transm ission electron m icroscopy. 13 m icroscope. I can lo o k a t things, b u t w h en w e're using 14 A nd it w as the com pany's policy to use this 14 very sophisticated equipm ent, like transm ission 15 p articu lar m ethod, w hich u ses x -ray diffraction, 15 electron m icroscopy o r x-ray diffraction, w e need 16 polarized light m icroscopy and electron m icroscopy. 16 people w ho've got a good experience as to how to use 17 Q Okay. W hen you say "this m ethod", I can see 17 them so that the result is m eaningful. 18 th at you are lo o k in g a t the docum ent. 18 M S FROST: W hy don't w e take a ten m inute 19 Are you looking at num ber 162, w hich is the 19 break? W e've b een going for about an hour. 20 CTFA method? 20 M S FRAZIER: Yeah. 21 A Yes, I am. 21 (O ff the record 12:02 pm ) 22 Q Okay. 22 (O n the record at 12:12 pm ) 23 If you w ould set that down for a moment. 23 BY M S FROST: 24 W hy don't you tell the jury how did the 24 Q D octor, w e w ere talking about the CTFA J4-1 25 Johnson & Johnson m ethod relate to the CTFA method? 25 process. 22 (Pages 1139- 1142) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1143 Page 1145 1 Remind us, who is the CTFA? 1 A W ell, Johnson & Johnson actually incorporated 2 A It's the short nam e version for a group, the 2 that standard before the CTFA published. 3 Cosm etic Toiletry & Fragrance A ssociation o f the United 3 CTFA published in 1977. M y understanding is 4 States, and that's a group o f well know n com panies that 4 that J& J were doing those sam e tests certainly a year 5 sell products you'll buy in m ost superm arkets, 5 before then, and probably a little bit longer. 6 Unilever, Johnson & Johnson, Estee Lauder, all those 6 Q W hen you say that you understand that it was a 7 well known names. 7 little bit earlier, w hat is the basis for that? 8 Q The process itself describes the use o f 8 A It's having spoken w ith people within the 9 different technology. 9 com pany w ho said that, because they were involved in 10 W hat processes are required in order to 10 developing the CTFA standard, they w ere getting 11 d eterm ine th e absence o f am phibole m inerals in talc 11 ex p ertise in u sin g those sam e test m ethods v ia their 12 u sin g the J4-1 m ethod? 12 outside external consultants. 13 A The J4-1 m ethod states that the first test you 13 Q D oes the talc used in Johnson & Johnson's Baby 14 should use is x-ray diffraction to ensure there's no 14 Pow der m eet any other specifications? 15 am phibole m in erals present. 15 T hat's p ro b ab ly a v ery p o o r question. 16 Q M r Panatier has asked you several tim es about 16 W e talked -- these are industry standards, 17 th e com parison b etw een u sin g the J4-1 o r on e o f the 17 b u t there are also standards for som ething th at is 18 o th er m ethods and h is use o f a m agnifying glass to try 18 c alled the U S Pharm acopeia; is th at correct? 19 a n d fin d b acteria o n his skin. 19 A Yes. 20 Is that, in fact, an apt analogy in term s o f 20 Q A nd w hat is the Pharmacopeia? 21 h o w one g o es ab o u t finding som ething from a scientific 21 A The Pharm acopeia --we see it as a book, or 22 standpoint? 22 several volum es o f a book, and it describes the quality 23 A N o, I think that's, to be honest, that's 23 o fju st about all the drugs and pharm aceuticals that 24 probably a little bit o f a difficult one to draw a 24 th at you get prescribed to you, or even ju st over the 25 strong analogy. 25 counter. Page 1144 Page 1146 1 If you look on your skin w ith a 1 So everything from aspirin, acetaminophen, 2 m icroscope slide -- 2 right through to anti-virals, antibiotics, 3 Q Why? 3 beta-blockers, heart drugs, just about anything your 4 A --sorry, with a hand microscope, or a hand 4 physician w ould prescribe you. 5 slid, you w ill never, ever see any bacteria. They're 5 But it also includes m aterials that are what 6 ju st w ay too sm all to be seen through Sherlock Holm es' 6 are described as "excipients", so things that go to 7 m agnifying glass. 7 m ake the little white tablets you put in your mouth; 8 If you look at talc under x-ray diffraction, 8 m aterials like cellulose or starch or talc, w hich is 9 you will certainly at some level pick up w hether there 9 also used in those little w hite tablets. 10 is any asbestiform m inerals there, including asbestos. 10 So it describes the quality o f materials that 11 Q Is that because o f the detection lim it 11 go along w ith the drug, as w ell as the actual drug 12 d ifference w ith the m agnifying glass, o r som e other 12 itself. 13 technical d ifference b etw een th e type o f com parison? 13 Q W e've been talking about industrial talc and 14 A It is essentially the detection limit. 14 cosm etic talc. Is there also som ething called 15 A hand m agnifying glass will never, ever pick 15 p harm aceutical grade talc? 16 u p a bacterium o n y o u r skin, w hereas x -ray diffraction 16 A There is. The U nited States Pharm acopeia sets 17 w ill p ick up certain m aterials, su ch as asbestos, in 17 a standard for pharm aceutical grade talc. 18 talc sam ples. 18 Q I have m arked and handed to you a docum ent that 19 Q Even though it has a detection lim it? 19 w e --is num ber num bered 228. 20 A E ven though it has a detection lim it, there is 20 W hat is that? 21 a point at w hich it w ill pick them up, yes. 21 (Exhibit 228 m arked for identification) 22 Q D oes Johnson & Johnson's B aby Pow der and Show e 22 A It is a description o f w hat is the USP. 23 to Shower have to pass the CTFA standard? 23 It describes the US Pharmaceutical 24 A As a basic starting point, yes. 24 Convention, the USP: 25 Q And how long has that been so? 25 "... is a scientific nonprofit organization 23 (Pages 1143 - 1146) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1147 Page 1149 1 that sets standards for the identity, strength, 1 A Procedure 1 is to evaluate by infrared 2 quality, and purity o f medicines, food ingredients, and 2 absorption. 3 dietary supplements manufactured, distributed and 3 Q W e haven't talked about that. Is that a 4 consum ed worldwide". 4 process that Johnson & Johnson uses to evaluate the 5 Q Does the Johnson & Johnson B aby Pow der and its 5 quality o f the talc? 6 Shower to Show er m eet the standards for pharm aceutical 6 A N o, that's not one that's w idely used. 7 grade talc? 7 It has been used, but as an alternative, 8 A Yes. The U SP standard for pharm aceutical grade 8 Procedure 2, w hich is x-ray diffraction, is the one 9 talc is just about identical to the Johnson & Johnson's 9 that's Johnson & Johnson's initial evaluation. 10 standard for baby pow der talc. 10 A nd Procedure 3, w hich defines if you get a 11 Q A nd I believe M r Panatier asked you about the 11 resu lt in P ro ced u re 1 o r Procedure 2, is to use optical 12 n atu re o f the U S Pharm acopeia. 12 m icroscopy. 13 It is not a governm ental agency. I think you 13 Q W hat is the outcome if the talc passes the USP 14 described it as a quasi governm ental agency. 14 test? W hat is --w hat are the im plications in term s o f 15 W hat did you m ean by that? 15 sales? 16 A W ell, as the U SP heading describes, U SP's 16 A W ell, that talc can be used in pharmaceutical 17 standards are enforceable in the U n ited States b y the 17 applications, and in d eed food applications. 18 F o o d an d D ru g A dm inistration. 18 Q H ow often is the talc used in baby pow der and 19 So a branch o f the governm ent enforces the 19 Show er to S how er tested under the U S P standard? 20 U SP's standards. 20 A U sing the sam e test m ethodologies, batches are 21 Q Does the USP set standards on m inerals other 21 sam pled every tw o weeks. 22 than asbestos that are perm itted to be in 22 Q W e've now discussed the internal testing, the 23 pharm aceutical grade talc? 23 industry standard J4-1, the USP test. 24 A It does, yes, yes. 24 A re those all o f the tests that are done on 25 Q W ell, I have handed you docum ent num ber 229. 25 the final Johnson & Johnson baby pow der product? Page 1148 Page 1150 1 (Exhibit 229 m arked for identification) 1 A No. Johnson & Johnson takes that seriously and 2 Is that the set o f standards applicable for 2 takes it to the next level and uses transmission 3 the USP? 3 electron m icroscopy as an additional follow up test. 4 A It is, yes. 4 Q In connection w ith that testing, despite the 5 Q A nd I guess standards applicable to talc for 5 m aterials w ritten on the flip-chart by M r Panatier over 6 the USP? 6 the last several days, have you seen any testing from 7 A Talc for the USP, yes, yes. 7 the J4-1 m ethod, the U SP m ethod, the internal testing 8 Q And can you just give us some examples? W hat 8 or TEM to demonstrate that there is asbestos in Johnson 9 else does the USP set limits on in connection with the 9 & Johnson's B aby Pow der? 10 talc? 10 A The answ er to that question is no. I've never 11 A It sets a lim it on the content o f m agnesium , a 11 seen an y resu lt w h ich confirm ed asbestos w as p resen t in 12 lim it o n th e co n ten t o f iron. It sets standards for 12 b aby pow der. 13 th e am ount o f w a ter soluble substances. It sets a 13 Q In addition to the testing that is done by the 14 lim it on the am ount o f led, a lim it on calcium , a lim it 14 com pany, are y ou aw are o f any testing done by 15 o n alum inum , and absence o f asbestos, a n d the m icrobial 15 governm ental agencies regarding Johnson & Johnson talc? 16 quality. 16 A Yes, la m , yes. The classic, well known one 17 Q In connection with the standard for the absence 17 w as the F ood and D rug A dm inistration did a very 18 o f asbestos, h o w does it instru ct th o se w h o are 18 stringent analysis b ack in 2009. 19 com plying w ith the standard to do the testing? 19 Q I have m arked and I'm handing you w hat I 20 A W ell, to quote: 20 believe is 230. 21 "Suppliers o f talc m ay use one o f the 21 (Exhibit 230 m arked for identification) 22 follow ing m ethods to determine the absence o f asbestos. 22 W hat is that, sir? 23 Proceed as directed for Procedure 1 or Procedure 2. If 23 A This appears to be a print-off from the FDA 24 either test is positive, perform Procedure 3". 24 w ebsite relating to talc. 25 Q O kay, a n d w h at is P rocedure 1? 25 Q W hat was the FD A looking for in connection with 24 (Pages 1147- 1150) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1151 Page 1153 1 talc? 1 either by polarized light m icroscopy nor by 2 A It was looking for quality and purity, and in 2 transm ission electron m icroscopy. 3 particular it expressed that there was interest around 3 Q A nd w hat did they show to be the limit o f 4 the topic o f asbestos, and so they were interested in 4 detection in the m aterials that they are using? 5 exam ining talc to ensure that its quality w as such that 5 A W ell, w ith the very sophisticated methodology 6 it w as safe. 6 o f transm ission electron microscopy, they state that 7 Q Okay. 7 the average lim it o f detection is .0000021 per cent, 8 Looking at the second page o f 230, w hat does 8 w hich translates in parts p e r m illion to .021 parts per 9 the FD A say that it was doing in connection w ith the 9 million. 10 evaluation o f talcum pow ders? 10 Q Looking at that level, did they find any 11 A W ell, w hat is stated is How FDA follow ed up on 11 asbestos m inerals in the o re subm itted b y either R io 12 th e latest reports: 12 T into or L uzenac? 13 "Because safety questions about the 13 A They found no asbestos present in the minerals, 14 p o ssibility o f asbestos in talc are raised 14 no. 15 periodically, F D A d ecided to co n d u ct an exploratory 15 Q Turning over to page 7 w here it reflects body 16 su rv ey o f [the] c u r re n t... m ark eted cosm etic-grade raw 16 pow der, w hat does it show that Johnson & Johnson 17 m aterial talc, as w ell as som e cosm etic products 17 subm itted to be evaluated as p art o f the testing? 18 co ntaining talc". 18 A Yes, it appears to show that Johnson & Johnson 19 Q D id Johnson & Johnson provide sam ples o f its 19 subm itted tw o products, Johnson's B aby P ow der and 20 product for testing by the FDA in 2009 and 2010? 20 Shower to Shower M orning Fresh Body Powder. 21 A They did, yes. 21 Q W hat did the FDA report about the talc that 22 Q Did the supplier for Johnson & Johnson supply 22 they review ed -- the products they review ed for Johnson 23 m aterials for the FD A to review as part o f its testing? 23 & Johnson? 24 A Yes, the supplier provided talc ore materials. 24 A W ell, looking for asbestos by both polarized 25 Q W ould it be fair to say that Johnson & 25 light m icroscopy and transm ission electron microscopy, Page 1152 Page 1154 1 Johnson's participation on --in this FD A process w as 1 they reported none detected. 2 voluntary, rather than m andatory? 2 M S FR O ST : This is probably a good place to 3 A It was voluntary, yes. 3 break - 4 Q W hy would Johnson & Johnson voluntarily 4 M R PANATIER: Sure. 5 participate in the evaluation o f talc by --at the FDA 5 M S FROST: --fo r lunch. 6 in 2009 and 2010? 6 Let's do a quick lunch if w e can so w e can 7 A I w ould summarize by saying that there was 7 try and get finished. 8 nothing to hide and no fear that the product w ould be 8 (O ff the record at 12:28) 9 found lacking in any way. 9 (O n the record at 12:58 pm) 10 The com pany is very confident in the safety 10 B Y M S FROST: 11 o f its p roduct, a t lea st in term s o f freedom from 11 Q D r H opkins, w e w ere talk in g ab o u t the F D A 's 12 asbestos. 12 evaluation o f cosm etic talc in 2009 and 2010 and their 13 Q W hat sort o f test did the FDA perform , as 13 findings in co nnection w ith b o th Johnson & Johnson's 14 reported in num ber 230? 14 finished products and the ore from w hich they get their 15 A They used a well known contract laboratory and 15 talc. 16 th ey an aly zed sam ples u sin g tw o techniques, p o larized 16 Prior to the 2009/2010 evaluation, had 17 lig h t m icroscopy a n d tran sm issio n electron m icroscopy. 17 Joh n so n & Johnson h a d interaction w ith the F D A 18 Q W hat did they ultim ately conclude concerning 18 concerning asbestos testing that it w as perform ing in, 19 th e rev iew o f m aterials? 19 say, the early 1970s? 20 A They sum m arized their report. They looked at 20 A Yes, there was regular dialogue with FDA and 21 the raw talc, talc that is actually used by Johnson & 21 Johnson & Johnson on m any occasions in the early 1970s. 22 Johnson. 22 Q A nd you talked --I'm handing you num ber 231. 23 Q Is that reflected on page 3? 23 (Exhibit 231 m arked for identification) 24 A That's on page 3, and they reported that in the 24 You spoke w ith M r Panatier about some 25 seven sam ples evaluated, no asbestos was detected 25 interactions w ith the FDA, but I w ant to show you what 25 (Pages 1151-1154) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1155 Page 1157 1 I've m arked as 231. 1 A That is correct, yes. 2 W hat is this document? 2 Q A nd w hy w as J& J com m unicating this information 3 A It's a letter on Johnson & Johnson letterhead 3 to the FDA? 4 dated Septem ber 21 ,1 9 7 1 . It's from D r N ashed and to 4 A Johnson & Johnson was aware that FDA were 5 D r Schafiher at the Bureau o f Foods, Food and Drug 5 interested in the safety o f talc, talc products, and 6 A dm inistration in W ashington. 6 there had been discussion in the m edia and the press as 7 Q A nd w hat does it claim to do? 7 to w hether or not there m ay be asbestos in talc 8 A W ell, the subject is Johnson's B aby Pow der and 8 products. 9 it's a letter to D r Schafiher at FD A as a follow up 9 So FD A w ere responding to that. 10 from a m eeting w ith FD A on A ugust 3,19 7 1 . 10 Q Okay. You can set that one aside. 11 Q Right. It says on the document: 11 W e talked about the qualification o f the 12 "As w e discussed, w e are subm itting herewith 12 m ines. I w ould also like to talk w ith you about the 13 fu ll reports o f o u r investigations as follow s ..." 13 specific testin g o f the m ines. 14 W hat types o f investigations was Johnson & 14 O ne o f the item s identified in num ber 231 is 15 Jo hnson sharin g w ith the F D A an d the D epartm ent o f 15 a rep o rt fro m D r Pooley, an d w e have talked about D r 16 H ealth E d u catio n and W elfare in '71? 16 Pooley and w hat he found. 17 A W ell, the subject is Johnson's Baby Pow der and 17 I have for you document num ber 232. 18 th e sam ples th at are b eing sh ared w ith F D A are 18 (Exhibit 232 m arked for identification) 19 d escrib ed as: 19 There's a cover page and an attachm ent. 20 Identification o f samples used in the Pooley 20 A Thank you. 21 re p o rt an d the M cC rone report; 21 Q W hat is num ber 232? 22 A letter from the Colorado School o f M ines 22 A N um ber 232, there's a cover page on letterhead, 23 Research Institute; 23 U niversity College, Cardiff, w hich is the U niversity o f 24 A report by Johnson & Johnson Pharmaceutical 24 W ales, from D r Pooley, D epartm ent o f M ineral 25 Research Section entitled "Particle size o f JO H N SO N 'S 25 Exploitation, and that's to D r Shelley at Johnson & Page 1156 Page 1158 1 B aby Powder"; 1 Johnson. 2 A report from D r FD Pooley, University 2 Q A nd w hat do you understand that Dr Pooley did 3 College, W ales, w hich is described as "Report o f 3 in connection w ith his evaluation o f the mine? 4 Investigations o f Talc Sam ples supplied by Johnson & 4 A This is a report w hich in two paragraphs states 5 Johnson"; and, finally, 5 that: 6 Reports from W alter M cCrone Associates (a) 6 "The m ineralogical x-ray and morphological 7 and(b); 7 exam ination o f the Italian mine samples has been in 8 (a) is "M ethodology for the Determ ination o f 8 progress for over a year. The sam ples [which] w ere all 9 Asbestos in Talc; and 9 collected under m y supervision at the Fontana mine, 10 (b) "E xam ination o f B ab y P o w d er for Jo h n so n & 10 w h ic h is the sam e m ine from w h i c h ... 'S how er to 11 Johnson". 11 S how er' sam ple w as obtained". 12 Q Is this roughly all o f the inform ation that 12 A nd he goes on to state that the report 13 w e'v e been d iscussing th is m o rn in g ab o u t the evaluation 13 sum m arizes: 14 o f talc and finished product for Johnson & Johnson? 14 "No chrysotile w as found at the mine or in 15 A Yes, that is m y understanding is the sum total 15 the sam ples taken, som e trem olite w as located, b ut was 16 o f w hat w as available in 1971. 16 n o t asbestiform in character and has n ot been detected 17 Q A nd w hat does D r N ashed say in connection w ith 17 in the 00000 talc im ported into G reat B ritain for the 18 p ag e 2 ? W h at does h e say ab o u t th e ou tco m e o f the 18 past year, n o r in shipm ents dating back to 1949". 19 data? 19 Q D r Pooley attach a report as part o f his 20 A W ell, summ arizing the reports from the five 20 correspondence to M r Shelley? 21 people previously m entioned, he states: 21 A H e does. He attaches a b rief report. It looks 22 "It is seen that the data conclusively proves 22 about six pages. 23 that JO H N SO N 'S Baby Pow der is free o f asbestos". 23 Q A nd w hat type o f sam pling does it indicate that 24 Q W as that what Johnson & Johnson thought in 24 he did in connection w ith the testing? 25 1971? 25 A It's a sam pling o f sam ples from the Italian 26 (Pages 1155 - 1158) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1159 Page 1161 1 m ine, the basic rocks from different parts o f the m ine 1 spent several days in the m ine, looking at the 2 w here the m ine runs, and also sam ples o f the actual 2 different kinds o f rock in the locality o f the talc 3 talc that w as in the mine. 3 m ining area; looked for types o f rock that are not 4 Q And, again, the conclusion was? 4 m ined, but could well be in the m ine, and also to look 5 A W ell, there's a six page report, but the 5 at the quality o f the talc itself. 6 overall conclusion is that there w as no asbestos 6 Q I have handed you what I have marked as number 7 present. 7 233. 8 Q Y ou m ay set that aside. 8 (Exhibit 233 m arked for identification) 9 The letter talks about the m ine, but it also 9 W hat is that? 10 talk s ab o u t sam ples o f product, d id it not? 10 A This is a report from D r Pooley from the 11 A It did, yes. 11 M ineralogy D epartm ent o f h is university, w h ich is 12 Q W hat was his conclusion about the samples o f 12 described as a R eport o f the E xam ination o f the R ock 13 th e product? 13 S am ples from the V erm o n t M ine. 14 A W hat he stated w as - let's read it exactly. 14 Q Okay. 15 "The data conclusively proves that Johnson's 15 W hat is the date o f this, as best you can 16 B aby Pow der is free from asbestos." 16 tell? 17 Let m e read that again. Let m e read it 17 A It's w ritten --handw ritten, O ctober, 1972. 18 exactly. 18 Q W hat did he conclude after having reviewed the 19 "No chrysotile w as found at the m ine or in 19 V erm ont m ine, i f w e turn over to page 48, w hich is the 20 sam ples taken." 20 last page o f the document? 21 A nd then he goes on to say: 21 A It's a long report. Y es, the conclusions are 22 "Chrysotile w as located, but was not 22 on page 48, yes. 23 asbestiform in character and has not been detected in 23 L et's read th is c a re fu lly ... 24 talc im ported into Britain for the past year, nor in 24 Q Ith in k - 25 shipm ents dating back to 1949." 25 A I think the second paragraph is the key one: Page 1160 Page 1162 1 Q Chrysotile is one o f the types o f asbestos that 1 "The am phibole m inerals were [not] found in 2 you show ed to the jury on the graphic earlier? 2 [the] discrete locations ... [nor] dissem inated 3 A Yes. 3 throughout the talc ore and w ere not asbestiform ..." 4 Q W as it not? 4 I w ill read that again: 5 So none o f that in the mine? 5 "The amphibole m inerals were found in 6 A H e did not find that in the mine. 6 discrete locations and not dissem inated throughout the 7 Q Likewise, he did not find that in the product. 7 talc ore and w ere not asbestiform in character". 8 Is that correct? 8 Q Let me stop you there. W hat does that mean? 9 A That is correct, yes. 9 A Basically, he found no asbestos in the talc 10 Q H e m entions having looked at som e sam ples going 10 ore. 11 b a ck som e years. 11 Q Okay. 12 How far back did D r Pooley evaluate samples 12 W hat does he say in connection with 13 fo r Johnson & Johnson? 13 serpentine m ineral? 14 A It im plies, w hich is clear from the letter, 14 A "Serpentine m ineral w as found in the specimens 15 th a t he lo o k ed a t shipm ents d ating b ack to 1949. 15 lo cated a t the center o f the o re body b ut n o fibrous 16 Q Okay. 16 com ponents w ere observed." 17 D id D r Pooley also look at the Verm ont m ine 17 Q So what does that mean? 18 fo r Johnson & Johnson? 18 A Again, there was no asbestos in the --in that 19 A Yes, he did a separate audit o f the Vermont 19 particular location. 20 mine. 20 Q A nd that location is the W indsor mine? 21 Q W hat is your understanding o f w hat he actually 21 A This is the actual ore body o f the W indsor 22 did in connection with his evaluation o f the Verm ont 22 m ine, yes. 23 m ine? 23 M R PANATIER: Is that 233? 24 A V ery similar to what he did in the evaluation 24 M S FROST: Yes. 25 o f the Italian mine. Go down the mine. 1 know he 25 Q Now , M r Panatier talked with you about the 27 (Pages 1159- 1162) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1163 Page 1165 1 various outside consultants, and this m orning we have 1 "Roger M iller o f W indsor M inerals has asked 2 talked about the w ork that D r Pooley did in connection 2 th at I w rite to ... co n firm th at w e have b een u sing 3 w ith the Italian m ine and the V erm ont mine. 3 W in d s o r ... talc fo r a n u m b er o f years." 4 D r Pooley was not the only one who evaluated 4 Q A nd-- 5 ore from the Verm ont m ine on behalf o f Johnson & 5 A Canyon. 6 Johnson. 6 Q Pm sorry, I didn't m ean to interrupt you. 7 W ould you agree with m e on that? 7 They've been evaluating the talc for Johnson 8 A That is correct, yes. 8 & Johnson; is that - 9 Q For a very long tim e, Johnson & Johnson 9 A Yes. 10 retained an outside group to do som e ongoing m onitoring 10 "Our first project with W indsor w as opened in 11 o f the talc products, d id th ey not? 11 S eptem ber 1971." 12 A They did, yes. 12 W hich w ould be 16 years previously. 13 Q A nd w ho was it that did the m ajority o f that 13 "Since that date w e have continuously 14 evaluation, o r m aybe all o f th at evaluation? 14 m onitored com posite sam ples for W indsor using 15 A M uch o f the evaluation at one point w as the 15 transm ission electron m icroscopy, the m ost sensitive 16 C olorado S chool o f M ines. 16 technique for fine asbestos fibers." 17 Q Did they also use a comm ercial testing group? 17 Q Cutting to sort o f the chase, as we say it - 18 A They did, indeed. 18 A Yeah. 19 Q W ho was that? 19 Q - w hat does M r Stewart say about their 20 A They used one o f the few that were available, 20 collection o f evaluations o f W indsor talc through the 21 and that w as M cC rone Associates. 21 15 years o f evaluating that talc, starting in Septem ber 22 Q I have m arked num ber 234. 22 o f 1971 and as o f the date o f the letter in M ay, 1987? 23 (Exhibit 234 m arked for identification) 23 A W ell, in the second paragraph he states: 24 I didn't go back through all o f the docum ents 24 "Throughout this entire period I can only 25 that M r Panatier show ed to you, although it m ay have 25 recall two occasions on w hich som e suspicious material Page 1164 Page 1166 1 felt to you and the jury like I did, but there w ere a 1 w as detected. The first involved possible chrysotile 2 num ber o f testing results that he talked with you about 2 contam ination in an air sample and the contam ination 3 from M cCrone Laboratories. 3 source was subsequently pinpointed as a deteriorating 4 And rather than going back through all o f 4 clutch in som e m echanical equipment". 5 those, I have provided you with num ber 234. 5 Q A nd let m e stop you there. 6 W hat is this, sir? 6 Y ou were asked a num ber o f questions by 7 A This looks like a retrospective sum m ary o f 7 M r Panatier about M cCrone and its reporting. 8 events in the previous few years. 8 W hat does M cCrone itself comm unicate to this 9 Q And who is the letter from and w ho is the 9 outside third party about the status o f their testing 10 letter to? 10 fo r the sam ple that show ed som e chrysotile? 11 A It's from M cC rone A ssociates, it's dated 21 11 A It said that they believe they did find some 12 M ay, 1987, a n d it is to M r B en n in g er a t A rm strong W orld 12 chrysotile, an d it w as likely to n o t have com e from the 13 Industries Inc. 13 talc, b u t from a piece o f equ ip m en t in the facility. 14 Q Does it have a copy with anyone associated with 14 Q W hat does he say about the second occasion in 15 W indsor M inerals? 15 w h ic h th ey found suspicious m aterial in the talc? 16 A It has a copy o f -- to M r R oger M iller at 16 A "The second occasion was so novel that it was 17 W in d so r M inerals. 17 w ritten up in our publicity brochure published around 18 Q A nd rem ind us, w ho is M r M iller? 18 ... 75-76." 19 A He w as the --basically, he was the Plant 19 He encloses a copy. 20 D irector at the W indsor M inerals operation. 20 " S u ffic e ... to sa y th at am id st m utterings 21 Q In 1987, w hat does M r Stewart report to 21 ... [that] 'th at in spector is no lo n g er w ith us', the 22 M r Benninger, w ho I am assum ing was either another 22 Illinois EPA wrote to W indsor M inerals to the effect 23 custom er or a potential custom er that he w as looking to 23 that they w ere satisfied that W indsor's product is free 24 evaluate? 24 o f asbestos. That has always been our opinion and 25 A W ell, w e'll pull out the im portant parts. 25 concludes to be --continues to be our opinion based on 28 (Pages 1163- 1166) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1167 Page 1169 1 o ver 15 years o f closely exam ining this product." 1 Q How long was that the process, or how long has 2 Q So, in addition to the inform ation that M cCrone 2 that been the process? 3 w as providing to Johnson & Johnson about the lack o f 3 A Essentially, ever since the Verm ont mine was 4 asbestos in the W indsor talc, w hat were they reporting 4 opened and shipping product. 5 to unaffiliated companies regarding that same matter? 5 Q H ow often were m aterial analysis reports 6 A They gave a sum m ary o f their results in the 6 generated? 7 previous 15 years th at stated they h ad not found 7 A Generally, every two weeks. 8 asbestos in the W indsor talc used by Johnson & 8 Q I'm going to show you w hat I've m arked as 9 Johnson's baby products. 9 num ber 235. 10 Q So any implications to the contrary would be 10 (Exhibit 235 m arked for identification) 11 inaccurate. W o u ld y o u th in k th at w o u ld be correct? 11 W hat is this? 12 A That is w hat is im plied in this letter, yes. 12 A It is a certificate, M aterial Analysis Report, 13 Q Okay. 13 w hich is a n analysis o f the product. 14 W e've talked about m ines. W e've talked about 14 It's the vendor Cyprus M inerals is describing 15 ore. W e've talk e d ab o u t the product. L et's talk a 15 W in d so r 66 talc, w h ich is the talc u sed in Johnson's 16 little bit m ore about finished talc testing. 16 baby products, and they describe their analysis, their 17 Y ou described something called "bulk 17 a ssay fo r various im p o rtan t factors, such as m oisture, 18 testing". W h a t does th at m ean? 18 a cid solubility, m agnesium , color, b u lk density, its 19 A Bulk testing is to evaluate the talc samples 19 degree o f fineness, am ounts for arsenic, heavy m etal, 20 b efo re th ey 're p ack ed into little h a lf p o und 20 water, w ater soluble iron, and assay for asbestos. 21 containers. 21 Q O n this particular one, w hat does it reflect 22 So it's the bulk m aterial before it's 22 about asbestos? 23 shipped, o r w hen it's shipped to the factory for 23 A In this particular one, the specification 24 filling into containers. 24 lim its are none detected, and none are detected. 25 Q Does the company get from the supplier any 25 Q It shows that the laboratory report was Page 1168 Page 1170 1 confirm ation that the m aterial is in fact in compliance 1 reviewed by someone. 2 w ith the specification as it relates to this bulk 2 W ho w ould have reviewed this material? 3 sampling? 3 A It w ould have been review ed by the -- this is 4 A Yes, the com pany is required to receive from 4 actually signed by the Johnson & Johnson Products 5 the supplier a regular audit to demonstrate absence o f 5 Com pany in Royston, Georgia. So they've obviously 6 asbestos in the bulk sampling. 6 checked it, and before it w ould be shipped, it w ould be 7 M S FRO ST: Can we go off for just a second? 7 review ed by the laboratory in Vermont. 8 I'm m issing a document. 8 Q Does it have an indication for w hether -- what 9 (O ff the record at 1:17 pm) 9 to do w ith the product? 10 (O n the record at 1:18 pm ) 10 A It says it's --the m aterial conform s to 11 B Y M S FR O ST : 11 specification and it's a ccep t or n o t accept, an d it's 12 Q For the bulk testing, did that relate to rail 12 ticked accept. 13 cars? 13 You can accept this product. 14 A Yes. 14 Q Rather than go through every single such 15 Q A nd w hy w ere you testing rail cars? W hat was 15 docum ent, have y o u seen docum ents like this for 16 th e relationship b etw een a rail car and talc? 16 shipm ents other than num ber 235? 17 A O kay. T alc is shipped from the m ine in V erm ont 17 A I've seen very, very m any, yes, yes. 18 g ro u n d a fte r being h e ld in silos in rail cars, a n d it's 18 Q All o f them generally the same sort - 19 sh ip p ed for filling in the facto ry in G eorgia. 19 A All o f them generally the same. All o f them 20 Q In connection with filling the rail cars, did 20 w ith a sum m ary which says the product conform s and it 21 the com pany receive any sort o f m aterial analysis 21 m ay be accepted, yes. 22 report from the supplier related to those rail cars? 22 Q W e do product testing, w e do rail car testing. 23 A Yes. It's a requirem ent to supply a statem ent 23 D id Johnson & Johnson also have any sort o f a process 24 ensuring the compliance to the specification for the 24 to do testing regarding asbestos in a more global 25 shipment. 25 sense? 29 (Pages 1167- 1170) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1171 Page 1173 1 T hat apparently w as a very poor question. 1 of the talcs that it was using in baby powder and other 2 A It was. 2 cosmetic powders? 3 Q It's late in the day. 3 A It concluded that, on a global basis, there was 4 A Try again. 4 no asbestos contamination in any of the talcs used in 5 Q W e'll try that one again. 5 the Johnson's products around the world. 6 Did Johnson & Johnson have any other program 6 Q Let's summarize. We've talked about 1946 7 for the testing o f asbestos or m onitoring o f asbestos 7 through some period of time, and the company testing. 8 related to the talc? 8 What was the company's conclusion, based on 9 A Yes. 9 the testing that you are able to document going back 10 Q A nd w hat was that? 10 into the '40s and '50s? 11 A Certainly in the early 1970s, the decision was 11 A Going back into the '40s, '50s certainly into 12 tak en in the com p an y th at the q u ality standards that 12 the '60s, 70s, and then the worldwide monitoring 13 w ere applicable in the U n ited S tates should a p p ly to 13 program 75 onwards, right up to 2000 and beyond, many, 14 every country a ro u n d the w o rld w here consum ers w o u ld 14 many hundreds of talc samples were made, and in no case 15 b u y Johnson's B ab y P ow der o r Jo hnson's talc products. 15 was asbestos found in any of the talc samples. 16 A nd so to initiate that, a project was 16 Q Well, then let's turn to another subject. 17 u n d ertak en on p re tty w ell a n annual basis w hereby 17 Let's talk about some of the researchers who were 18 overseas affiliates from E urope, A frica, F a r E ast, 18 looking at talc in the early 1970s. 19 L atin A m erica, w o u ld send reg u lar - send a sam ple o f 19 You are familiar with a gentleman by the name 20 their finished product talc, as purchased from the 20 ofDrLewin? 21 local store, to N ew B runsw ick for evaluation for 21 A Yes,lam . 22 quality and purity. 22 Q Who was Dr Lewin? 23 Q I'm going to hand you w hat I've m arked as 23 A Dr Lewin was a researcher based in New York and 24 number 235. 24 he was commissioned by the Food and Drag Administration 25 M S KAGAN: 236. 25 to evaluate talc samples in the United States. Page 1172 Page 1174 1 M R PANATIER: I thought the last one was 235. 1 Q Did D r Lew in ever work for Johnson & Johnson, 2 M S FRO ST: I'm going to hand you w hat I have 2 to your knowledge? 3 marked as num ber 236. 3 A H e did not. 4 (Exhibit 236 m arked for identification) 4 Q I'm going to hand you docum ent num ber 237. 5 Q W hat is that, sir? 5 (Exhibit 237 m arked for identification) 6 A This is a report entitled Johnson & Johnson 6 A nd this -- are you fam iliar with this 7 W orldwide 1975 Talc M onitoring Program. 7 document? 8 Q And is that the program that you were just 8 A I've seen this before, yes. 9 describing for us? 9 Q A nd w hat is this? 10 A It is, yes. 10 A This is a report dated A ugust 11,1972. It's a 11 Q W hat is the frequency with which this talc 11 m eetin g b etw een F o o d a n d D rug A dm inistration 12 p ro ject w as done? 12 representatives, o f w hich there are six nam ed, and 13 A For most o f about 25 years, it was done 13 co nsum ers -- or, sorry, com panies selling consum er 14 annually. I th in k th ere m ay have b een a couple o f 14 products to the industry. So from the industry, 15 y ears w h en it w as skipped fo r a year, b u t pretty w ell 15 in clu d in g Jo h n so n & Johnson, others, M cC rone 16 an nually ov er a p e rio d o f 25 years. 16 A ssociates, Gillette, W hittaker C lark & Daniels, A von 17 Q A nd w hat was the finding o f the annual report 17 P roducts, the M ennen C om pany, C heesebrough-P ond's, an 1 18 o v e r the course o f th at 25 y ears? 18 D r L ew in h im self w as there. 19 A O ver that tim e, and this is taking m any, m any 19 Q W hy was Johnson & Johnson and its industry 20 talc samples from all over the w orld, in no case did 20 colleagues m eeting with the FDA to talk about D r Lewin? 21 the com pany ever find asbestos in any o f the Baby 21 A W ell, D r Lewin, as I said, had been given the 22 Products Com pany products. 22 project to take a look at products on the US market 23 Q Having found no asbestos in those products over 23 for --to check whether or not there was asbestos 24 that period o f tim e, w hat conclusion did Johnson & 24 present. 25 Johnson reach regarding the asbestiform m ineral content 25 Q A nd how m any products do you understand that he 30 (Pages 1171 -1174) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1175 Page 1177 1 tested? 1 A Yes. W hat D r N ashed stated was that Johnson & 2 A A lm ost two hundred. I think it was 192 or 2 Johnson: 3 thereabouts. 3 "... reported w ork they had done on a J& J 4 Q O f those, how m any products by Johnson & 4 product w hich D r Lew in reported as having chrysotile. 5 Johnson did he test? 5 D r N ashed reported that J& J scientists (Dr Stewart and 6 A A s I recollect, there w ere 11 th at h e'd tested. 6 M r Rolle supervised the analyses) had examined a 7 Q A nd in his initial testing, how m any o f those 7 portion o f the very same sam ple that Dr Lewin had 8 11 d id h e rep o rt th at he h ad fo u n d a percentage o f 8 analyzed and found no detectable chrysotile. They 9 asbestos? 9 reportedly used the follow ing techniques, petrographic 10 A H e thought he'd found asbestos in seven o f 10 analysis, electron m icroscopy, electron diffraction, 11 those, as I recollect. 11 p o w d er cam era x-ray, scanning x -ray and step scanning 12 Q Did Johnson & Johnson agree or disagree with 12 x -ray ... E ach sam ple w as analyzed fo r chrysotile and 13 h im on th at finding? 13 n o detectable am o u n t w as found". 14 A T hey totally disagreed for the sim ple reason 14 Q T he conclusion o f this m em o from the FD A is 15 th a t it d id n o t reflect the testin g th at Johnson & 15 reflected in the final paragraph. 16 Johnson had done and other laboratories had done over 16 Can you tell us w hat the conclusion o f the 17 th e p rev io u s few years. 17 m eeting w as, as reported by D r W enninger? 18 Q Because o f that, did --is that what 18 A It sim ply states: 19 p recip itated th e m eeting w ith the FD A ? 19 "There was no disagreement between FDA and 20 A Yes, yes, and it was concern not just in 20 industry scientists present at this m eeting about the 21 Jo h n so n & Johnson, b u t w ith o ther com panies th at D r 21 potential safety hazard that the presence o f asbestos 22 L ew in's results did not reflect reality. 22 in talc containing cosmetic products poses to the 23 Q W hen you say that, tell us about the m em orandum 23 consumer". 24 o f the m eeting with D r Lew in and the FDA. 24 Q Does the docum ent also indicate that D r Nashed 25 W hat does it say that D r Lew in reported in 25 represented to the FD A that analytical data w ould be Page 1176 Page 1178 1 connection w ith his technique for having identified 1 m ade available? 2 w hat he thought was chrysotile? 2 A It does. 3 A Yeah. W ell, D r Lew in was using x-ray 3 Q A nd w hat does it say in that connection? 4 diffraction as a means o f detecting chrysotile and 4 A It said: 5 trem olite, w hich he described as tw o species o f 5 "D r N ashed said that J& J w ould m ake all 6 asbestos in the talc samples analyzed. He found other 6 analytical data on the analyses o f their talc samples 7 m aterial species that he thought did not interfere. 7 available to FD A on a non-confidential basis in the 8 So he was using a technique o f x-ray 8 very near future". 9 diffraction to try to identify chrysotile. 9 Q Now, D r Lew in him self had something to say 10 Q W as there a discussion at this m eeting about 10 about the accuracy o f his findings, did he not? 11 w h eth er electron m icrographs reflected talc in the - 11 A He did, yes. 12 reflected asbestos in the talc o f th e p ro ducts th at had 12 Q I'm going to hand you w hat I've m arked as 13 b een evaluated? 13 n u m b er 238. 14 A W ell, the discussion centered around the x-ray 14 (Exhibit 238 m arked for identification) 15 d iffraction pictu res o r results a n d it w as p o in te d out 15 A Yes. 16 to D r L ew in that x-ray diffraction w ould not 16 Q Have you seen this before? 17 n ecessarily d etect asbestos m aterial as a single test 17 A Yes, I have, yes. 18 m ethod. 18 Q A nd what is this? 19 Q Now, D r Nashed attended this particular m eeting 19 A W ell, this is a letter to The W all Street 20 on behalf o f Johnson & Johnson, did he not? 20 Journal from Professor Lew in at N ew York University and 21 A He did, yes. 21 he --it's headed A sbestos R eport. H e --D r L ew in 22 Q A nd w hat did he report to the FD A regarding the 22 states: 23 w ork that had been done on Johnson & Johnson products, 23 "I w ish to m ake a sm all correction t o ... 24 the ones that are the same that D r Lew in had reported 24 [the] generally accurate article that appeared on 25 as having contained chrysotile? 25 February 26, dealing w ith the FD A 's concern over the 31 (Pages 1175 - 1178) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1179 Page 1181 1 possible health hazard posed by the presence o f large 1 W hat does he conclude at the end o f the day 2 am ounts o f asbestos-type impurities in cosmetic 2 in his reporting about the evaluations he's m ade o f the 3 powders". 3 various cosm etic talc products? 4 Q W hat did he have to say specifically as it 4 A Yes. In point 7 he states: 5 related to his findings on Johnson & Johnson's pow der? 5 "M ost o f the com m ercial talcs tested are free 6 A "In the article referred to, I w as erroneously 6 o f any detectable am ount o f any o f the asbestiform 7 quoted as having reported that Johnson and Johnson's 7 minerals, according to the criteria enumerated above. 8 talcu m p o w d e r con tain ed 2 ... to 3% asbestos. In 8 Thus, there appears to be an adequate supply o f talc 9 actual feet, I rep o rte d th at o f 11 sam ples o f the 9 for w hich there is no ambiguity about the absence o f 10 products o f this com pany, I found no asbestos in nine 10 chrysotile or trem olite. In about 10% o f the sam ples 11 o f th e sam ples, a n d [in] the o th er tw o sam ples fell 11 ... there appear[s] to b e definitely detectable am ounts 12 in to the in co nclusive categ o ry described above. T hese 12 o f either chrysotile or trem olite present". 13 are -- resu lts are n o t seriously a t variance w ith those 13 Q H e has a key that indicates the products, and 14 reported b y investigators retained by the com pany." 14 i f you look, num bers 29 and 30 - 15 Q W hat was the expert disagreement as it related 15 A Thank you. 16 to D r L ew in's classification o f m inerals as having been 16 Q - - are Johnson & Johnson? 17 chrysotile, to the ex tent th at y o u know ? 17 A Yes. 18 A I think what cam e out o f the m eeting and the 18 Q And then if you go a few pages further on, 19 d ialogue a n d discussion afterw ards w a s th at D r L ew in 19 num bers 1 3 1 ,2 ,3 ,4 ,5 , 6 ,7 and 8 are also Johnson & 20 realized, as did m any other people after the m eeting, 20 Johnson products; correct? 21 th a t the m eth o d o f differential x -ray analysis w as n ot 21 A They are, yes. 22 specific to detect asbestos, and that you need to go on 22 Q And if you turn to the results in the back 23 and do further testing to confirm whether or not that 23 w here he has the listing o f his final report results, 24 result is the case. 24 w hat does it show for num bers 29 and 30, w hich are the 25 A nd in the case o f chrysotile, it is well 25 tw o Johnson & Johnson products first listed? Page 1180 Page 1182 1 recognized that the x-ray analysis confuses chrysotile 1 A H e's listed chrysotile trem olite as 2 w ith a harm less m ineral called chlorite, w hich is 2 non-detected. 3 com m only found associated with talc. 3 Q For both o f those? 4 Q I th in k yo u 'v e m entioned chlorite before. W hat 4 A For 29 and 30. 5 is chlorite? Y ou said that it w as basically harmless? 5 Q T hen if w e turn over to the listings for the 6 A It is. It's a m agnesium silicate w ith a 6 rem aining products, num bers 131 through 138, w hat did 7 calcium atom on there. So it's very sim ilar to talc. 7 he ultim ately conclude? 8 It's totally innocuous, quite safe, but it's 8 A Right, I'm m issing those pages. They're out o f 9 occasionally found in association w ith talc. 9 order. 10 Q A nd w hat did you tell us earlier was the 10 Q Here, you can use this one. 11 chem ical d escrip tio n o f talc? 11 A O kay. I've g o t th em now . Y eah, okay. 12 A M agnesium silicate. 12 131 for trem olite, he describes as trace in 13 Q I'll hand you w hat I have m arked as num ber 239. 13 sam ple 131, b u t in 132 d ow n to 140, non-detected. 14 (Exhibit 239 m arked for identification) 14 A nd for chrysotile, he describes non-detected 15 This is, I believe, the final report o f D r 15 from 131 d ow n to 140. 16 L ew in. 16 Q So at the end o f the day, in connection with 17 Have you seen this? 17 the testing that D r L ew in d id in the early 1970s, w hat 18 A I think I've seen som ething sim ilar, yes. 18 w as the conclusion about the presence o f asbestos in 19 Q Okay. 19 the Johnson & Johnson product? 20 Let's take a look if you w ill turn to the 20 A The com pany's conclusion w as that there w as no 21 th ird pag e o f the docum ent. W hose is the signature? 21 asbestos in the product. 22 A SZ Lewin. Yes, Professor Lewin. 22 Q W hat about D r Lew in's conclusion? 23 Q In connection with the report that D r Lewin 23 A D r Lew in sim ply stopped at the point where he 24 m ade in July o f '73, let's look at the very last 24 noted trem olite in one sam ple, but he'd not defined 25 paragraph on page 3 in his Summary. 25 whether it w as asbestos trem olite or not asbestos 32 (Pages 1179- 1182) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1183 Page 1185 1 tremolite. 1 D r L ew in didn't know w hat he w as doing. 2 Q Did D r Eierm ann at the FDA have any comm ents 2 His results were basically not valid. 3 regarding D r Lew in's findings? 3 Q In addition to D r Lewin, we talked about 4 A There w ere -- w ell, there w ere regular m eetings 4 som eone called D r Langer, or you spoke with M r Panatier 5 betw een consum er companies, including Johnson & 5 about a Dr Langer. 6 Johnson, and FD A, and D r Eierm ann certainly summarize 6 W ho was Dr Langer? 7 som e o f those meetings, yes. 7 A H e's a researcher at M t. Sinai in N ew York. 8 Q I will hand you num ber 240. 8 Q Okay, and what was his relationship to Johnson 9 (Exhibit 240 m arked for identification) 9 & Johnson? 10 W hat is num ber 240? 10 A I don't believe he'd ever w orked for Johnson & 11 A It's a letter from H einz Eierm ann, dated 11 Johnson. H e 'd done som e independent research o f his 12 O cto b er 1, 1973. 12 o w n on talc analyses. 13 Q A nd rem ind us, who is D r Eierm ann? 13 Q A nd in connection with the analysis that he 14 A A t that tim e in '73, he w as w ith the Food and 14 did, w hat w as the report o f w hat he found initially? 15 D ru g A dm inistration. 15 A Again, he claim ed w ith one o f his colleagues 16 Q A nd w hat does he report to us in connection 16 that --he claim ed to have found asbestos in Johnson & 17 w ith the Sum m ary and Com m ents on the A nalyses for 17 Johnson, and indeed in other products on the U S m arket. 18 A sbestos in C osm etic T alc P roducts? 18 Q A nd in connection with the w ork that he did, he 19 A W ell, it's a long m em o. W e'll ju st focus on a 19 d id tw o sets o f analyses, did he not? 20 couple o f sentences. 20 A He did, yes. 21 But it comm ents on the w ork by following 21 Q A ll right. H e did one in the early '70s? 22 investigators, o f w hich D r Lew in is one, and D r Schulze 22 A Yes. It w as '71,1 think. 23 from the FD A was there, and they summarize: 23 Q A nd then som e later testing in '76? 24 "T here is p o o r correlation betw een D r L ew in's 24 A H e published in '76, yes. 25 results and the findings o f the other investigators". 25 Q All right. Page 1184 Page 1186 1 Q A nd in the next paragraph, w hat does he report 1 In connection w ith the 1971 testing, I have 2 as the reason for those discrepancies? 2 marked num ber 241. 3 A H e said: 3 (Exhibit 241 m arked for identification) 4 "The reason for these discrepancies m ay be 4 A fter the initial reports concerning D r 5 found in D r L ew in's ow n notes o f July 10,1973, in 5 Langer's findings, w hat did he later report concerning 6 w hich he stated: 'the chrysotile that I found in 6 w hat he had claimed to find in connection with baby 7 comm ercial talcs is generally different in significant 7 powder? 8 respects from the chrysotile that occurs as m assive, 8 A He claim ed to have found -- initially, he 9 fibrous g row ths in v e in s ... [of] serpentine rocks. 9 claim ed to have found asbestos in the baby powder. 10 T h at is, th e form er h as [a] d iffraction p e a k ... that 10 Q A nd w hat did he ultim ately report to the news 11 m a y differ from th e latter b y as m uch a s p o in t 0.2 A 11 m ed ia co n cerning w h at h e found? 12 ... It is th erefore - it is m ore reactive to w ard 12 A W ell, he just says: 13 d ilute acids; it show s a d ifferent appearance u n d er the 13 "Foolishly I sent them a w ritten report after 14 m icroscope; a n d [in] i t s ... [differential therm al 14 lo o k in g a t on ly tw o sam ples ... T he data w ere very 15 analysis] endotherm s and exotherm s are sh ifted relative 15 p relim inary in n a tu r e ... a n d ... I m ay have [ b e e n ] ... 16 to those o f the latter (and apparently dim inished)'. 16 m istaken [in looking at] long talcum fibers for 17 H e fu rth er states th a t 'the analytical m ethod (x-ray 17 asbestos fibers. T hey have [very] sim ilar properties". 18 d iffraction) g ives a rep ro ducibility o f plu s o r m inus 18 Q Is that the quote from D r Langer? 19 2 % to 3% average dev iatio n in replicate determ inations 19 A T hat is a letter. I guess he was trying to set 20 on the [very] sam e sam ple, but different sam ples from 20 the record straight. He w rote a letter to the - - 1 21 th e sam e b u lk co n tain er are fo u n d to vary a s m uch as 21 believe it w as T he N ew Y ork Tim es. 22 200% '". 22 Q A nd in connection w ith his --the report o f his 23 Q All right. In plain English, w hat is that 23 story, w hat did he ultim ately say about his analyses? 24 telling us, sir? 24 It's the next paragraph after the -- 25 A W ell, it's telling m e that the FD A thought that 25 A It's very sm all font. 33 (Pages 1183 - 1186) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1187 Page 1189 1 Q Sorry about that. 1 1976, w hat was the takeaw ay conclusion o f Johnson & 2 A V ery sm all print. 2 Johnson from the w ork done by D r Langer in '76? 3 "... M t. Sinai lab has been actively involved 3 A T hat he'd found no asbestos in any o f the 4 in warning the public o f the dangers o f inhaling 4 Johnson & Johnson products. 5 asbestos f i b e r s ... 5 Q W as Johnson & Johnson able to obtain the 6 D r ... Selikoff, w ho heads the laboratory, 6 results o f the investigation from the FDA related to 7 has a -- has been a central figure in the controversy 7 those products? 8 o v er a s b e s to s ... 8 A I believe so, yes. 9 B ut L anger said [that] the am ount o f asbestos 9 Q I will hand you what I have marked as number 10 he saw in baby pow der w as only 'trace level'." 10 243. 11 Q W hat did he say about w hat he thought about the 11 (Exhibit 243 m arked for identification) 12 im portance o f looking fo r asbestos in talcu m pow ders? 12 Is this is a 1976 document from the FDA 13 A W hat he said was the data very prelim inary in 13 regarding the evaluation o f asbestos m inerals in field 14 nature, and: 14 activity surveillance? 15 "... w h at is m ore, I m ay have [been] 15 A Yes. 16 m istaken --m istaken long talcum fibers for asbestos 16 Q W hat does "field activity surveillance" mean? 17 fibers. T h ey hav e sim ilar properties". 17 A It's a project that FD A has from tim e to time. 18 He continued: 18 T hey'll go into stores and take sam ples o f m any 19 "It ann o y s the hell o u t o f m e -- t h e r e ... 19 different types o f products, lipstick, nail polish and 20 [is] a lot m ore im portant things than looking for 20 other products, and they look to ensure that they are 21 asbestos in talcum powder". 21 safe to the consum er. 22 Q All right. 22 Q And, again, what was the conclusion based on 23 But, nonetheless, he returned to the issue o f 23 that evaluation o f products and the Johnson & Johnson 24 looking for asbestos in talcum pow der in 1976, did he 24 products? 25 not? 25 A W ell, they looked at over -- alm ost 200 Page 1188 Page 1190 1 A He did, yes. 1 products, I think, yeah. They looked at alm ost 200 2 Q In 1976, w hat do you understand D r Langer to 2 products, including some Johnson & Johnson products, 3 have evaluated? 3 a n d the conclusion --give m e a s e c o n d ... 4 A He claim ed to have evaluated several products 4 Looking for trem olite fibers, w hich w ould be 5 on the US m arket and published a report as to w hat he 5 asbestos fiber, or chiysotile, which w ould be an 6 believed that they contained asbestos. 6 asbestos, they found none detected in Johnson's Baby 7 Q Once again, there w as an article in The New 7 Powder. 8 Y ork Tim es concerning his results, was there not? 8 Several sam ples o f Johnson's Baby Pow der, 9 A Correct, there was. 1976, yes. 9 they found none detected. 10 Q In 1976, w hen they reported th at ten o f 19 body 10 Q Okay. 11 a n d b ab y p o w ders h a d b e en found to contain asbestos 11 A nd is this is the Langer report or the Lewin 12 fibers - - 1 have handed you docum ent num ber 242. 12 report? 13 (Exhibit 242 m arked for identification) 13 A It's 176 sam ples. So let's have a look ... 14 A nd this is a copy o f (he article at The N ew 14 This is -- yes, this is a review o f D r 15 Y o rk tim es, w h a t w as his conclusion about the p ro ducts 15 L e w in 's d a ta . Y es. 16 in w hich he did n ot find asbestos? 16 Q Okay. Y ou m ay set that one aside. 17 A "The products that the researchers found 17 O ther than the w ork that was done with that, 18 u n co n tam in ated w ith asbestos fibers w ere A m m en's 18 the L anger m aterials received quite a bit o f coverage, 19 M ed icated P ow der, A von B ird o f P arad ise B eauty D ust, 19 d id th ey not? 20 D iaperene M edicated B ody Pow der; [and] tw o Johnson's 20 A They did, yes. 21 B aby Pow ders (... m ade here and one in Britain), 21 Q And, as with other issues with the FDA, the 22 Johnson's M edicated Pow der, M ennen B ath Talc, Y ardley 22 CTFA arranged for a m eeting w ith M t. Sinai, did they 23 After Shave Pow der and Yardley Original B ody Powder". 23 not? 24 Q Okay. 24 A They did, yes. 25 So o f the products evaluated by Mt. Sinai in 25 Q A nd did that include m em bers o f the staff o f 34 (Pages 1187- 1190) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1191 Page 1193 1 Environm ental Science Laboratories, D r Langer and his 1 Q Is this 245? 2 cohort, D r Rohl? 2 A Yes. 3 A It did, yes. 3 (Exhibit 245 m arked for identification) 4 Q In connection with the m aterials that were 4 Q W hat is this, sir? 5 reviewed by D r Langer and D r Rohl, I have handed you 5 A The first page is a response from the Food and 6 number 244. 6 D rug A dm inistration and it is in response to a 7 (Exhibit 244 m arked for identification) 7 Citizen's Petition. 8 W hat is this? 8 Q A nd w hat is a Citizen's Petition, as you 9 A It's a m em orandum o f a m eeting, M arch 2 2,1976, 9 understand it? 10 a t M t. Sinai S chool o f M edicine, N e w Y ork, b etw een 10 A Putting it sim ply, it means that any citizen 11 m em b ers o f s ta ff o f the E nvironm ental Science 11 fro m the U n ited States can talk to F o o d and D rug 12 L aboratories a t M t. Sinai, D r L an g er a n d D r R ohl, an d 12 A dm inistration i f they have a concern or an issue on a 13 tw o peo p le fro m D ivision o f C osm etics T echnology o f 13 food, a drug o r a cosm etic, and they can require F D A to 14 FD A , M r W ilson and M r Yates. 14 com e to an opinion as to w hether that concern is valid 15 A nd they w ere discussing the topic o f 15 o r n o t valid. 16 A nalytical M ethodology fo r th e D etectio n an d 16 Q A nd w hat did the Citizen's Petition in 1983 17 D eterm ination o f A sbestos M inerals in Talc. 17 request o f the FD A in connection w ith cosm etic talc? 18 Q Right. 18 A W ell, the response to M r Douillet: 19 Now, in connection with this meeting, and I 19 "This responds to your Novem ber 8,1983, 20 apologize, I think I described it as a m eeting with 20 petition requesting that cosmetic talc be labeled with 21 F D A --this is actually a m eeting w ith M t. Sinai -- the 21 an asbestos w arning statem ent, inform ation on asbestos 22 ten products that D r Langer had done analyses on and 22 particle size and the proportion o f talc impurities in 23 reported the presence o f trem olite and anthophyllite, 23 the product". 24 those did not include a Johnson & Johnson product; is 24 Q W hat did the FD A conclude w as the appropriate 25 that correct? 25 thing to do in connection with the citizen request that Page 1192 Page 1194 1 A They did not include a Johnson & Johnson 1 a warning be placed on cosmetic talc? 2 product. 2 A W ell, the response covers over --alm ost an 3 Q In fact, the docum ent itself lists the ten 3 inch o f documentation, but they basically summarized 4 products w hich he had evaluated. 4 having discussed how they had taken their approach, and 5 Can you tell us w hat those were? 5 w hat approach they had taken to com e to a decision. 6 A T hey w ere other products on the U S market. 6 A nd they sum m arized it by saying that: 7 Cashm ere Bouquet Body Powder; Rosem ary talc; Brut for 7 "However, your petition has not persuaded us 8 M en; A ir Spun Face Pow der from Coty; Baby talc from 8 that cosm etic talc that is presently being produced 9 B auer and Black; Black Label, Yardley; After Shave 9 contains sufficient am ount o f asbestiform m inerals -- 10 Talc, English Leather; Z B T B aby Pow der; Invisible Talc 10 sorry, contains significant am ount o f asbestiform 11 fro m Y ardley; an d Shave talc from M ennen. 11 m inerals". 12 Q In addition to the Langer w ork and the FDA 12 Q W hat does it say about the FD A 's evaluation o f 13 analyses, d id -- w a s there ev er an y an alysis or 13 inform ation in the early 1970s, as th ey reported to the 14 interaction betw een the FD A and w hether o r not there 14 citizens? 15 w a s a hazard asso ciated w ith th e asbestos contam ination 15 A W ell, w hat they state is: 16 in cosm etic talc? 17 A Y es, I think it's fair to say that the industry 16 "In addition, FD A surveillance activities 17 that w ere conducted in the latter portion o f the 1970s 18 selling co sm etic talc w as k een to ensure th at the 18 show that the quality o f cosm etic talc had 19 p ro d u ct w as safe, a n d th ey w ere --there are reports o f 19 significantly im proved, and that even w hen asbestos w as 20 several m eetings betw een industry representatives and 20 present, the levels were so low that no health hazard 21 F ood and D rag A dm inistration, FDA. 21 existed". 22 Q In 19 --are you fam iliar w ith a 1983 Citizen's 22 Q U nderstanding w hat the FDA said about testing 23 Petition asking that a warning be placed on cosm etic 23 in the early 1970s, i f you look back on the first page, 24 talc? 24 the first paragraph explains w hat it w as that they did. 25 A Yes, I have seen that Citizen's Petition, yes. 25 A nd w hat does the FD A say that they did in 35 (Pages 1191 - 1194) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1195 Page 1197 1 connection w ith the evaluation o f the health status o f 1 Q In connection with the relevant data, did the 2 cosm etic talc? 2 FD A also look at the risk o f exposure in relationship 3 A W ell, they go on, and particularly in the last 3 to environm ental exposures? 4 paragraph, that they received several such reports and 4 A I'm sure they did. This is over an inch thick 5 they evaluated them by looking at the analytical 5 o f documentation. So give me a minute. 6 results and discussed how questionable they were: 6 Q Okay. 7 "... [The] assessm ent proved to be correct 7 H ere's an easier question: w hat do you 8 because m any questions were subsequently raised about 8 understand to have been their conclusion about the 9 results reported in the literature in the early 1970s 10 t 9 comparison o f a w orst case exposure to asbestos from 10 cosm etic talc as it relates to a lifetim e environm ental 11 And they give some references, and: 11 exposure? 12 "Because o f the questionable nature o f the 12 A A s I recollect, and I'm not going to read 13 analytical results, the agency w as n o t able to assess 13 several hundreds p ages o f docum entation, b ut as I 14 ... [the reliab ility of] the levels o f asbestiform 14 recollect, it w as o f no consequence. 15 m inerals in cosm etic talc t h e n ... [on] the 15 There's ju st no relationship. So it w as not 16 m arketplace." 16 o f significance. 17 Q Turning to the second page, what do they report 17 Q A t Johnson & Johnson --you can set that aside. 18 in the seco n d p arag rap h about the actions th at it took? 18 A Thank you. 19 A They stated that --took these actions: 19 Q Yes. 20 "... m an y cosm etic m an ufacturers b egan to 20 A t Johnson & Johnson, w ho all evaluated the 21 analyze their talc for asbestiform m inerals as part o f 21 published scientific literature concerning talc? 22 th eir q u ality control p r o g r a m s ... talc suppliers began 22 A It w ould say several people. Certainly, there 23 to sell higher purity talcs to the cosm etic industry. 23 w as a Research Departm ent, a M edical Department, 24 By 1976, asbestos analytical m ethodology was 24 several qualified M Ds, toxicologists. 25 sufficiently developed that the Cosm etic Toiletry and 25 Q W e talked about the Johnson & Johnson process Page .1196 Page 1198 1 Fragrance Association (CTFA) could issue a 1 o f hiring outside experts to assist with talc issues. 2 specification (copy enclosed) for cosm etic talc. [The] 2 D id they use that sort o f outside expertise 3 ... specification required that such talc be free o f 3 for anything other than talc? 4 fibrous am phibole (e.g., asbestos in the form o f 4 A Yes. That's certainly not uncom m on in m any 5 asbestiform tremolite) using a CTFA m ethod o f analysis 5 corporations and com panies that you look at outside 6 that is capable o f detecting 0.5 per cent o f amphibole 6 help w here you think someone else has got a different 7 asbestos. This specification contributed to the 7 skill set. Yeah, certainly. 8 continued im provem ent o f cosm etic talc quality". 8 Clinical trials for one. You're not 9 Q Is the FD A referring in that discussion to the 9 necessarily going to do those in-house. Tests on 10 C T F A asbestos testin g standard th at w e talk ed about 10 product for skin irritation. T hose are all done 11 earlier? 11 outside. 12 A I believe they are, yes. 12 Q One o f the issues that you talked with 13 Q Does the FD A indicate that it has taken into 13 M r P an atier ab o u t yesterd ay h a d to do w ith publications 14 co nsideration th a t a n d o th er issues since the 1970s to 14 in the literature and Johnson & Johnson's involvem ent 15 evaluate th e safety o f such talc? 15 w ith its outside experts and others in connection w ith 16 A Yes. T hey indicate that they've certainly 16 that. 17 follow ed the issues a n d keep a n eye o n things. 17 D o you rem em ber those questions? 18 Q So w hat was their final conclusion? 18 A Yes, I do, yes. 19 A In their final conclusion, having review ed all 19 Q Right. 20 the data that they have found in the literature with 20 One o f the things that we talked about 21 spoken w ith experts, th ey sim ply conclude that: 21 yesterday had to do w ith C olorado School o f M ines' 22 "For all o f these reasons, your petition is 22 discussion o f a paper at the Bowling Green - from 23 denied. T his denial is w ithout prejudice to the future 23 Bowling Green University. 24 filing o f a petition on this m atter, accom panied b y all 24 Do you recall that? 25 relevant data in support o f the petition". 25 A I do, yes, yes. 36 (Pages 1195- 1198) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1199 Page 1201 1 Q A nd docum ent num ber 188 was som ething that 1 m ay possibly m ake an identification o f anhydrite in 2 M r Panatier show ed you and talked w ith you about that 2 talc". 3 has to do w ith the Colorado School o f M ines' discussion 3 Q Y ou spoke yesterday w ith M r Panatier about the 4 w ith the Bow ling G reen people regarding their findings. 4 professional process o f m eeting with other scientists 5 Now, one o f the things that he show ed you in 5 to go through things that did not seem to be logical in 6 that docum ent had to do with the people w ho w ent to the 6 connection with a variety o f findings. 7 m eeting, but what he didn't talk to you about w as w hy 7 A s it relates to this document, mem orializing 8 it was that the Colorado School o f M ines had been asked 8 the m eeting between the Colorado School o f M ines and 9 to go and talk w ith their counterparts at Bowling Green 9 the Bowling Green research team, what does it reflect 10 to discuss the findings, as reflected in their article. 10 that w as discussed am ongst the scientists involved in 11 Can you look at the first page o f num ber 188 11 th at m eeting? 12 and read for us, please, w hat it is that it says there 12 A It summarizes w hat appears to be a very 13 regarding th e re aso n fo r th eir v isit to discuss these 13 technical discussion, and one o f the things about 14 issues with Bowling Green? 14 scientists, as I'm sure w ith law yers, is that there's 15 (E xhibit 188, prev io u sly m arked, han d ed to w itness) 15 general respect for each other, and you have an opinion 16 A W ell, this letter is from the Colorado School 16 as to w hat som eone has done, and if you find 17 o f M ines Research Institute, dated June 8,1973, and it 17 disagreem ent, you'll talk about it in a friendly and 18 describes the m eeting w ith Bow ling G reen University 18 positive m anner. 19 G eology Staff, and w hat is stated is that: 19 So that basically is the essence o f this 20 "Since our general observations at the 20 discussion. 21 R esearch Institute - that's Colorado School o f 21 Q A nd let's look at the specific item s that they 22 M ines -- relative to asbestiform m inerals in talc are 22 reflect, because M r Panatier talked with you about the 23 such --are at such high variance --sorry, such large 23 fact that there was a m eeting and it made clear that 24 variance to those reported in the paper, an 24 the data could be a serious charge against the product. 25 investigation o f the paper w as undertaken". 25 B ut let's talk about exactly w hat the authors Page 1200 Page 1202 1 Q A nd how do you interpret that? W hat does that 1 and Colorado School o f M ines discussed in connection 2 mean? 2 with those findings. 3 A W hat it m eans is that Colorado School o f M ines 3 A Essentially, one o f the outcomes o f that 4 had been looking at talc samples from m any different 4 professional m eeting stated that: 5 suppliers, including Johnson & Johnson, and they had 5 "None o f the three authors had any previous 6 never found anything like the num bers that were found 6 experience w ith talc m ineralogy, b u t th ey d e c id e d ... 7 by the Bowling Green University group. 7 it w ould be a suitable subject for a paper. Our 8 Q Now , this docum ent goes on to talk about the 8 discussions yielded the follow ing significant results: 9 identification o f som ething called "anhydrite". 9 A ll three au th o rs re ad ily adm itted ... they 10 W hat is anhydrite? 10 did a 'rush job'. A bout 2 w eeks w as spent in gathering 11 A W ell, anhydrite is calcium sulphate. 11 d ata f o r ... [this] paper". 12 Q A nd w hat does the Colorado School o f M ines 12 Q W hat else does it show? 13 rep o rt in th is docum ent co n cerning the significance o f 13 A It says that: 14 the B ow ling G reen team 's finding o f anhydrite in 14 "They agreed that asbestiform minerals cannot 15 co n n ectio n w ith the m aterials th at it evaluated? 15 be identified by X -ray diffraction. X -ray diffraction 16 A W ell, calcium sulphate or anhydrite is a very 16 is capable only o f identification o f a m ineral group 17 sim ple m aterial, and w hat they say is that: 17 w hich contains both asbestiform and non-asbestiform 18 "T he m ineral [calcium sulphate] a n h y d rite ... 18 minerals". 19 i s ... reported b y X -ray diffraction for all except 19 Q W hat else did the Bowling G reen researchers 20 three o f the sam ples. W e have never found anhydrite in 20 agree w ith the Colorado School o f M ines about in 21 any talc sam ples exam ined at the R esearch Institute. 21 connection w ith the evaluation o f the quality o f 22 Furtherm ore, from the standpoint o f geological 22 research done to support their paper? 23 occurrence and ro ck g e n e s is ,... [we] w o u ld n o t expect 23 A "They admitted that they did not adequately 24 to find anhydrite associated w ith talc. W ith these 24 c h eck the 'talc edge effect' w hich could lead t o ... 25 factors in m ind, a study was m ade to determ ine how one 25 m isidentification o f talc plate edges as [an] 37 (Pages 1199- 1202) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1203 Page 1205 1 asbestiform m ineral by m icroscopic analysis." 1 read to the jury those portions that M r Panatier did 2 Q N ow , th at's n o t som ething M r Pan atier talked 2 not ask you about and tell us w hat is your 3 w ith you about; correct? 3 understanding o f w hat w as being asked to be 4 A N o. I m ean, basically w hat they're saying is 4 accom plished in connection with the review o f Dr 5 if you have the plate set on its edge, it w ould look 5 H enderson's work? 6 long and thin, b ut they didn't separate that out. 6 A Sure. Just as a follow up, it was mentioned 7 Q And does the document reflect that there were 7 that M r Henderson was looking at electron m icroscopy 8 several other areas o f scientific discussion concerning 8 w here the particle is shadowed with platinum deposited 9 the quality o f the research? 9 under vacuum , and the final sentence is important: 10 A Yes. They agreed that they had m ade several 10 "M r Henderson claims that this pattern was 11 errors. T h ey agreed: 11 specific to talc an d anthophyllite only". 12 "They did not take into account the possible 12 T hen it goes on to state that: 13 p resence o f chlorite in the talc an d co uld w ell have 13 "Our inform ation was that these types o f 14 m isidentified chlorite as serpentine (w hich [would] o f 14 patterns w ere a function o f any cleavable m aterial". 15 course in c lu d e ... chrysotile)". 15 Q A nd w hat w as the significance o f the finding 16 T hey also adm itted that: 16 th at the patterns w ere the sam e as on any cleavable 17 "Relative to the identification o f anhydrite, 17 m aterial? 18 th ey a d m itte d ... th ey p ro b a b ly m isidentified ... [the] 18 A W ell, w hat it m eant w as that any cleavable 19 k -b eta talc peak" th at's o n the m achinery. 19 m aterial w ould not necessarily include anthophyllite or 20 And, secondly: 20 talc, so that the claim that M r Henderson m ade that the 21 "They counted only 100 grains for their 21 pattern w as specific to talc and anthophyllite w ould 22 quantitative m icroscopic analyses. Though their data 22 not be valid. 23 is p resen ted in term s o f v o lu m e ... W e p o in ted o u t ... 23 Q Is that an appropriate or an inappropriate view 24 the statistics involved are totally unacceptable". 24 o f how to deal w ith a scientific disagreement? 25 Q Does that indicate to you that the discussion 25 A I think the sum m ary here is that people are Page 1204 Page 1206 1 betw een the Colorado School o f M ines and the Bowling 1 setting out their position and m aking clear that, in 2 Green researchers was, as implied by M r Panatier, some 2 this case M r Henderson, w asn't accurate in his 3 sort o f a threatening meeting, or w ould you 3 interpretation. 4 characterize it in some other way, and if so how? 4 It's a professional dialogue. 5 A No, I think, as I've said earlier, that 5 Q You can set that aside, I believe. 6 generally when scientists sit dow n and talk to each 6 W as Johnson & Johnson involved in any w ay in 7 other, there m ay be an occasion for disagreement, but 7 subm itting materials to the NTP? 8 the outcome o f this m eeting is that the Bowling Green 8 A Forevaluation? For -- 9 scientists realized that they had not understood the 9 Q For talc safety? 10 jo b pro p erly a n d h a d n o t g iv en accurate readings and 10 A For talc safety studies? 11 results. 11 I believe N TP did use talc in a talc safety 12 Q All right. Y ou m ay set that aside. 12 study, yes. 13 M r Panatier, also talked with you 13 Q A nd w e haven't talked about NTP. W hat is NTP? 14 d o cu m entation n u m b er 189, w hich is a C onfidential 14 A Okay. It's the N ational Toxicology Program o f 15 T alc - U K W o rk S tatus R eport. 15 the U n ited S tates. It's a div isio n o f the U S 16 (Exhibit 189, previously m arked, handed to w itness) 16 governm ent, w ho has a responsibility to evaluate the 17 A nd the area that I specifically w ant to talk 17 toxicology or safety o f m any different kinds o f 18 w ith y o u ab o u t is the d iscussion ab o u t th e evaluation 18 m aterials that are u sed both in industry --m ostly in 19 o f D r H enderson's w o rk reg ard in g cleavage fragm ents an d 19 industry - a n d also ju s t in the environm ent an d arou n d 20 patterns on cleavagable m aterial. 2 0 US. 21 N ow , as I understood the questioning from 21 Q Okay. 22 M r Panatier, it w as his im pression, at least, that the 22 D id you personally have any involvem ent in 23 com pany was discrediting D r Henderson generally. 23 subm itting m aterials related to talc to the N TP for an 24 Can you review the parts o f that docum ent 24 evaluation at any point? 25 related to the evaluation o f D r H enderson's w ork and 25 A I personally did not, no. 38 (Pages 1203 - 1206) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1207 Page 1209 1 Q Did Johnson & Johnson subm it m aterials to the 1 m arket, they did extensive studies and show ed that in 2 N TP for its evaluation o f whether to list talc as a 2 no case were there asbestos m aterials present in the 3 carcinogen or a product reasonably expected to be a 3 product. 4 carcinogen? 4 Q In connection w ith the C itizen's Petition, w hat 5 A Are you talking about documentation? 5 did the FDA conclude concerning the need for a warning 6 Q Yes, sir? 6 on cosmetic talc products? 7 A N ot talc samples? 7 A W ell, they review ed all the literature that was 8 I believe Johnson & Johnson was certainly 8 technically available in --up to 1986 and beyond, and 9 involved in assem bling data to support the safety o f 9 they concluded that there was no reason to list a 10 talc for th at p articu lar review . 10 w arning on talc products. 11 Q W hat did the N TP conclude in connection with 11 Q Do you know whether they have revisited that 12 w h e th er o r n o t to list talc as a carcinogen o r a 12 question since 1986? 13 p ro d u ct reaso n ab ly ex p ected to b e a carcinogen? 13 A I believe they have, but I don't have that 14 A They concluded that there was insufficient data 14 docum entation w ith me. 15 to list talc a s a carcinogen. 15 I believe there has been a more recent 16 Q Do you have any idea o f w hat the constituency 16 C itizen's Petition, b u t I can't be sure, so I'm not 17 w as o f the g roup o f people w h o w ere m aking that 17 going to com m ent. 18 d ecision? 18 M S FROST: Okay. Let's take a five m inute 19 A W ithin the N TP process, the ROC process, the 19 break, please. 20 first level is undertaken to nom inate a product. It 20 (O ff the record at 2:19 pm ) 21 co m es fro m w h a t are called the "staffers". 21 (O n the record at 2:33 pm ) 22 They are relatively junior people in the 22 BY MS FROST: 23 organization who w ill pull together a proposal; and at 23 Q D r Hopkins, w hy is it that the FD A was involved 24 the second review it goes to a higher authority body 24 w ith the evaluation o f the safety o f cosmetic talc 25 w ith m ore --m ore skill set. 25 products? Page 1208 Page 1210 1 But in betw een tim es, people m ay m ake a 1 A W ell, FD A 's role to the A m erican consum er is to 2 subm ission and provide data inform ation that m aybe NTP 2 ensure that the products that are on the market are 3 didn't have at their first evaluation. 3 safe. 4 Q So is this a fairly thoroughly scientific 4 FD A has responsibility for - overall 5 review? 5 responsibility for cosm etic products. 6 A It's a very thorough review. 6 Q Could the FD A require a warning on cosmetic 7 It allows not just industry but consum er 7 products if it so wished? 8 groups to present data to N TP as part o f their review. 8 A If they had valid reason to do so, they could 9 Q And, again, at the end o f this review, w hat was 9 require that warning, yes. 10 the conclusion o f N T P regarding w hether or not to list 10 Q To date, have they done so? 11 talc as a carcin o g en o r a p ro d u ct reasonably expected 11 A They have not, no. 12 to b e a carcinogen? 12 Q Now, w e spoke previously about the NTP. 13 A N TP concluded that there w as no valid evidence 13 In advance o f the N TP's m eetings in 2000, was 14 to list talc as a carcinogen. 14 Johnson & Johnson aw are that they w ere going to be 15 Q In discussion o f -- actually, let m e m ove back 15 review ing talc as a potential carcinogen? 16 to the board for a m om ent. L et's m ake sure that we 16 A I'm not aw are that that w as part o f the story. 17 h a v e ... 17 There was no early warning other than the 18 So N TP concluded that talc was not a 18 N T P 's review , o r p ro p o sed rev iew in 2000. 19 carcinogen? 19 Q Okay. 20 A That's -- 20 Did you, as part o f the work that you did 21 Q O r not to be listed? 21 w hile you w ere still at Johnson & Johnson, participate 22 A N ot to be listed as a carcinogen, yes. 22 in any specific FD A workshop or other evaluation 23 Q W hat w as the outcom e o f the FD A 's analysis in 23 regarding talc? 24 2009 and 2010 as it relates to cosm etic talc products? 24 A Yes. The FD A called a workshop in 1994 in 25 A B ased on their review o f products on the US 25 W ashington and I was a participant in that workshop. 39 (Pages 1207 - 1210) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1211 Page 1213 1 Q And w hat did the workshop consider? 1 D o you think that's a fair takeaw ay from the 2 A The w orkshop w as over two days. It considered 2 questions yesterday? 3 tw o m ain topics. One w as the results o f the rat and 3 A That is an interpretation, yes. 4 m ouse studies that N TP had conducted to evaluate talc 4 Q Okay. 5 safety by inhalation in rats and m ice over a lifetime. 5 N ow , one o f the documents that you were shown 6 Q Let m e stop you there. W e haven't talked about 6 yesterday, and I w ant to go through a series o f these, 7 that. W hat sort o f rat and m ouse study did they do? 7 and there's one for w hich I don't have a num ber. I 8 A Essentially, standard toxicology stuff. 8 didn't write the num ber down. It's O ctober 10,1974, 9 Y ou dose rats and m ice at different dose 9 M r A shton to D r Hildick-Smith. 10 levels o f talc dust, b reathable talc dust, an d they 10 M R PA N A TIER: H ere it is. 78. N o, that is 11 b reath e it in ev ery day o f th eir lives for tw o years. 11 another. 12 Q A nd w hat did those two years demonstrate in 12 W e'll figure it out. 13 co nnection w ith the ra t study? 13 MS FROST: Okay. 14 A The total sum m ary o f the study that was 14 M R PANATIER: It was an exhibit; right? 15 p resen ted b y the N ational T o x ico lo g y Pro g ram in 1994, 15 M S FROST: It is an exhibit. 16 b o th the ra ts an d the m ice, w a s th at th e talc w as n ot 16 So I'm going to ask about it and we'll come 17 resp o n sib le fo r a n y c an c er cau sin g effects. 17 back w ith the exhibit num ber. 18 Q Specifically, did the rat and m ouse study 18 Q In connection w ith the discussions for the 19 d isclose a n y m esotheliom a in the te s t subjects? 19 study that D r R ubino w as doing, there w ere a series o f 20 A They did not see any m esotheliom a in rats or 20 docum ents, and I'm going to try to do them in 21 m ice. 21 chronological order. 22 Q T hat is 1994? 22 Let's look first at docum ent num ber 192, 23 A It was reported in 1994, yes. 23 w hich is a m em o from D r G avin Hildick-Sm ith to D r 24 Q W e've been talking about an aw ful lot o f 24 Petterson talking about the initial m eeting to discuss 25 documents today. You personally attended this 25 the scope o f the study. Page 1212 Page 1214 1 particular seminar, but o f the documents we have been 1 (Exhibit 192, previously marked, handed to witness) 2 talking about this afternoon, had you reviewed and have 2 D o you rem em ber that? 3 fam iliarity w ith those documents prior to your arrival 3 A I rem em ber that, yes. 4 here today? 4 Q M r Panatier asked you some questions, but he 5 A Yes, indeed. M any tim es over m any years. 5 didn't ask you som e questions about the discussion on 6 Q How is that? 6 page 2 o f that m emo that describes w hat the m eeting was 7 A W ell, as an employee o f Johnson & Johnson from 7 about. 8 '76 and then through as a consultant to 2 0 1 1 ,1 had 8 Can you look for me, please, at the first 9 occasion to be involved in safety o f talc, and part o f 9 paragraph there on page 2 o f this docum ent and let's 10 th at w as to review those docum ents as and w hen the need 10 talk about w hat the docum ent reports as the purpose o f 11 arose. 11 th e m eeting? 12 So I have certainly seen them and I reviewed 12 A W ell, this docum ent is dated Decem ber 12,1973: 13 th em ov er th e --rereview ed th em o v e r the p a st several 13 "A m eeting was held with Professor Rubino and 14 weeks. 14 his associate, D r G Piolato, and it w as pointed out 15 Q A nd speaking o f rereviewing, we just talked 15 th a t the objective o f the epidem iological study w as to 16 ab o u t the ra t an d m ouse study, b u t som e o f the issues 16 determ ine w hether the incidence o f cancer in the 17 th at you discussed yesterday w ith M r Panatier had to do 17 diseased m iners w as different from that expected in the 18 w ith outside research th at w a s b ein g con d u cted b y D r 18 ... n o n-m ining po p u latio n in ... [the] adjacent area". 19 R u b in o in Italy. 19 Q Let me stop you there. 20 Do you recall that discussion? 20 W hose objective does the docum ent seem to 21 A Yes, I do, yeah. 21 reflect that refers to? 22 Q Okay. 22 A W ell, Professor Rubino and the people --the 23 The im plication w as that there was something 23 epidem iology experts in Italy. 24 untow ard about the actions o f Johnson & Johnson in 24 They are keen to understand whether or not 25 connection w ith that study. 25 there was an issue w ith incidence o f cancer. 40 (Pages 1211 -1214) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1215 Page 1217 1 Q Right. 1 Tenovus group w ill be subm itting data on the content of 2 It goes on in the next paragraph. W hat else 2 talc in cancerous and norm al tissues". 3 does it say about w hat D r Rubino's objective w as with 3 Q W hat is the significance o f the description o f 4 the study, as explained in this first m eeting? 4 D r Rubino and his m ethodology in your review o f this 5 A W ell: 5 document? 6 "Prof Rubino w ill initially obtain the 6 A It sum m arizes that G avin Hildick-Smith, MD, 7 records --[all] the records o f all m ining em ployees 7 believed that he was working to the highest standards, 8 from 1945 to 1973 and determ ine those w ho have died and 8 using experts in statistics, biometrics, and getting 9 the cause o f death. In addition, som e o f the data will 9 together unassailable facts -- to quote those words. 10 be obtained from a m atched group o f non-m iners in an 10 Q Is that a good thing or a bad thing? 11 ad jacent com m unity. A ll the d a t a ... w ill be recorded 11 A T hat is a good thing. T hat w ould be called 12 on a standard form to allow it to be computerized". 12 good science. 13 Q Now , M r Panatier talked w ith you about the 13 Q Y ou m ay set that aside. 14 th ird p arag rap h and the fact th at it w o u ld involve 14 (E xhibit 197, previously m arked, handed to w itness) 15 review o f epidem iological experts and procurem ent o f 15 He also showed you this document from 16 optim um data. 16 O ctober 3 0 ,1 9 7 4 , another -- this one to D r 17 Based on your understanding o f the 17 H ildick-Sm ith from M r A shton, also concerning the 18 m ethodology involved in a study o f this nature, how do 18 Italian talc studies and a visit w ith D r Rubino. 19 you interpret that description? 19 Now, w hat M r Panatier asked you about was the 20 A W ell, the tw o paragraphs I've ju st read 20 instructions concerning the term s o f the talk, but what 21 indicate that the --Professor Rubino and the 21 he didn't ask you about w as the follow ing paragraph. 22 epidem iology contacts in Italy have pretty well decided 22 Can you read for us from the following 23 w hat appears to be a good protocol to review the data. 23 paragraph and explain to us the significance o f that 24 So they have already set up a nice protocol. 24 from your analysis? 25 Q You m ay set that aside, sir. 25 A Yeah. It discusses that Rubino read his talk Page 1216 Page 1218 1 N ext docum ent I w ant to talk with you about 1 from the Italian draft and the English translation was 2 is also related to the epidem iological study o f the 2 translated by Stefano and Stefano. 3 cause o f death in Italian talc m iners. This one is 3 "There are some phrases which do not 4 m arked as Exhibit 193. 4 translate into English, but I gather they do not alter 5 (Exhibit 193, previously marked, handed to witness) 5 the findings o r the conclusions. Since O ctober 7 talk, 6 D ated February 14,1974. If you will take a 6 Rubino has an additional 200 case histories, but the 7 look at it and orient yourself. 7 results are the sam e as you have reported earlier." 8 Y ou spoke w ith M r Panatier about part o f this 8 Q So he has continued to compile data; is that a 9 yesterday, but I w ould like for you to look at the 9 fair understanding? 10 portion he didn't show you or ask you about on page 2 10 A T hat is the case, yes, and the period between 11 co n cerning the evaluation o f D r R ubino a s a researcher? 11 his talk an d w h e n th is m em o is w ritten, he h as g ot m ore 12 A O kay. T his docum ent is dated February 14, 12 data from m ore m iners. 13 1974, receiv ed in Jo h n so n & Jo h n so n M arch 12, '74, and 13 Q And if you turn to the second page, an 14 that particular sum m ary from D r Hildick-Sm ith, MD, 14 analysis, or in conjunction w ith the discussion by 15 w ritin g to h is colleagues in Joh n so n & Johnson says, 15 M r A shton o f the com m ents that he provided, w hat does 16 final paragraph: 16 he say w as the nature o f the com m ents th at he m ade to 17 "The im pression w as obtained from Professor 17 the draft o f the paper, as presented in this m eeting? 18 R ubino that he is a m eticulous w orker concerned with 18 A His first sentence says: 19 obtaining unassailable facts and [he] is h im self not 19 "I have some m ineralogical comm ents w hich I 20 concerned with personal gain from the study. Professor 20 told to Stefano". 21 Rubino is consulting with experts in the field o f 21 A nd then, as we discussed yesterday: 22 statistics and biom etrics and expects to have his study 22 "The first page o f the article has to be 23 com pleted so that he can have data available for the 23 carefully revised. The m ention o f two genetic sources 24 fall, 1974, m eeting ... h eld by D r S elikoff a t the N ew 24 o f talc and the phrase indicates that talc o f dolomite 25 Y ork Academ y o f Science at w hich M r Henderson o f the 25 origin has fibrous m ineral m ust be deleted. It is 41 (Pages 1215 -1218) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1219 Page 1221 1 important that Rubino refers only to high grade 1 the m ineralogical m aterials in the rock ore and the 2 cosm etic talc to avoid paragenetic m aterial matters." 2 talc ore. 3 So he's com m enting on m ineralogical aspects 3 Q If you turn to the last page o f that document, 4 to D r Rubino. 4 and specifically to the section where their comments on 5 Q He goes on to m ake comm ents concerning som e o f 5 capabilities o f Rubino and staff - in sort o f sum m ary 6 the surprising findings about D r Rubino's evaluation. 6 fashion, w hat did M r Ashton report o f his evaluation of 7 W hat does D r --does M r A shton refer to in 7 the capabilities o f D r Rubino and his staff? 8 connection in this next paragraph about the findings 8 A W ell, in sum m ary, he looks -- he sounds to be 9 that were unexpected as it related to the evaluation o f 9 very im pressed by Rubino: 10 th e m iners a n d m illers? 10 "Rubino's m edical capabilities are w ithout 11 A Talking about the m ineralogical aspects o f 11 question. A s yo u w ell k n o w he is in d em and for talks 12 R ubino's talc article, he says: 12 o n the co n tin en t an d a recognized authority in 13 "You recall that a few o f us here were 13 o ccupational disease investigations". 14 talk in g ab o u t the surprising d ata w hich seem s to show 14 He goes on to say that he was pleased to 15 th at silicosis a n d pneum oconiosis w as h ig h er in the 15 lea m th at he has three electron m icroscopies at his 16 m in ers th an in the m illers. It w as surprising because 16 d isposal in th e hospital. 17 m illers are exposed to m ore d u st th an m iners. It w as 17 Q W hat is the significance o f three electron 18 very significant an d a testim o n y o f R ubino's veracity 18 m icroscopies b ein g available to D r R ubino during this 19 th at he's b een w o rrying ab o u t th at un expected 19 tim e p e rio d o f tim e? 20 relationship in his findings." 20 A W ell, at that tim e it was pretty amazing, 21 Q Is it good or a bad thing that D r Rubino is 21 becau se those are expensive, sophisticated pieces o f 22 reporting on an unexpected finding related to the 22 equipm ent. W hat it show s is that he has the best 23 m iners and m illers? 23 equipm ent available to do his research. 24 A That's good science. Y ou should report on w hat 24 Q A nd in the final paragraph that M r Panatier 25 y o u find. 25 didn't ask you about, w hat does M r Ashton say to his Page 1220 Page 1222 1 Q Now, in connection with the next paragraph, you 1 colleagues concerning the qualities and independence o f 2 w ere asked som e questions about silica and the 2 D r Rubino? 3 drilling, but in the middle o f that paragraph there was 3 A H e states: 4 som e explanatory m aterial w hich seems to give context, 4 "M y opinion on Rubino is this. H e is a 5 but was not show n to you or asked about. 5 sincere, distinguished and m ost capable m edical 6 Can you take a look at that and tell us what 6 scientist. H e has at his disposal the m ost 7 is the im plication or im port o f that additional 7 sophisticated o f equipm ent and can go at any dust 8 information? 8 problem with profundity. Anybody w ho for a moment 9 A W ell, it says that: 9 thinks that Rubino, his data, or the hospital at the 10 "....the miners are exposed to host rock 10 U n iv ersity o f T u rin is anything b u t top flight has 11 d u st w h ich contains ... am ounts o f m uscovite ( m ic a ) ... 11 eith er snapped o ut [ o f it] o r is full o f crap". 12 quarts ( s ilic a ) ..." 12 Q Y ou can put that one in the stack. 13 How ever, it goes on to say: 13 N ow , let's look at docum ent num ber 207. 14 "The m illers never are exposed to those rock 14 (E xhibit 207, prev io u sly m arked, handed to w itness) 15 d usts o r to ... [the] m ineral b alance since m illers 15 D o you rem em ber 207 from yesterday? That's 16 o n ly m ill talc, n o t h o st rocks. R u b in o n o w needs a 16 the allegedly altered versio n -- 17 w ritten reference [to] com m unication o n the m ineral 17 A The shortened version. 18 m ake-up o f the h o st rocks and talc ore. T he geological 18 Q - o f the prelim inary data? 19 rep o rt fro m C a rd iff (on file a t F D A here) is a useable 19 A Y es,Id o ,y es. 20 reference for that and I gave you the appropriate pages 20 Q I'm also going to show you the prepublication 21 y esterd ay fo r transm ittal to R ubino". 21 co p y o f the article p repared b y D r R ubino an d w hich you 22 Q Does that indicate that the m aterials being 22 discussed in som e detail w ith M r Panatier. 23 provided w ere to hide inform ation o r to provide 24 information? 23 A nd I w ant you to look at the prepublication 24 docum ent, num ber 207, and then w e're going to compare 25 A No, the intent was to provide inform ation on 25 that to num ber 202, and I w ant you to tell us w hat 42 (Pages 1219 - 1222) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1223 Page 1225 1 these three documents are and how they relate to each 1 Q A nd am ongst the sim ple tabulation in the 2 other? 2 published version, in w hich journal did you say that 3 A Yeah. 3 is? 4 W ell, in the prepublication department, as 4 A It's the Journal o f O ccupational M edicine. 5 this m atter was raised yesterday, there was a separate 5 Q In the Journal o f -- 6 line item for cause o f death from larynx, lung, 6 A Sorry, Journal o f Occupational M edicine, yes. 7 trachea, oesophagus and stomach cancer. 7 Q Journal o f Occupational Medicine. 8 Q A nd in the prepublication -- that's the 8 And as an aside, who does the Journal of 9 prepublication? 9 O ccupational M edicine go to? 10 A That's the prepublication. There w as a 10 A W ell, generally, anyone w ho's interested in 11 relativ ely long list o f differen t types o f cancer. 11 h ygiene in industry. So it's p retty w ell anyone in 12 Q Okay. 12 industry: m ining, m illing, factories. 13 Now, when you turn to document number 207, 13 It relates to the health o f employees in any 14 w h ich is th e docu m en t th at M r P anatier a sk ed y o u about, 14 industrial application. 15 can yo u tell u s from looking a t nu m b er 207 w h at is the 15 M R PANATIER: Can you just show m e the front 16 sou rce o f th at docum ent? 16 page? 17 W here was it published? 17 Perfect. Thank you. 18 A I've n o t com e across th is a s b eing p u b lish ed in 18 B Y M S FR O ST : 19 a n y p eer rev iew m edical jou rn al. 19 Q In the chart on page 4 o f Exhibit num ber 204, 20 It doesn't have a page num ber on or a journal 20 w hich is the - or 202, the publication version -- 21 reference, w hich you w ould norm ally find. 21 A Yes. 22 Q B y com parison, let's take a look at num ber 202. 22 Q W hat does it show as the incidence o f cancer 23 (Exhibit 202, previously m arked, handed to witness) 23 for the m iners and millers? 24 W hat is the publication inform ation as it 24 A It breaks dow n the incidence o f cancer into all 25 relates to the Rubino study for num ber 202? 25 m alignant neoplasm s, and then it goes on to look at Page 1224 Page 1226 1 A W ell, this is a print from the Journal o f 1 neoplasm s --that's cancers --o f the larynx, and then 2 Occupational M edicine from M arch, 1974. 2 the lung, bronchus and trachea, and then it considers 3 Q And is the Journal o f Occupational M edicine the 3 the pleura, mesotheliom a, the oesophagus, the stomach, 4 sam e journal w hich was referred to yesterday in the 4 the intestine and the liver and any other sites. 5 documents as the one where one o f the in-house folks at 5 Q H ow does that com pare to the table that is 6 Johnson & Johnson was assisting D r Rubino in making 6 reflected in the prepublication document? 7 sure that the article w ould com ply w ith the 7 A L et's have a look. 8 requirements for publication? 8 W ell, the prepublication docum ent also 9 A Yes. It was, yes. 9 reviews all m alignant neoplasm s, lung, bronchus, 10 They have a house style that you follow that 10 trachea, larynx, oesophagus, stom ach, pneum oconiosis. 11 fo rm at i f y o u 're subm itting an article. 11 Y es, it's pretty well the sam e. V ery 12 Q N ow , M r Panatier asked you som e questions about 12 sim ilar. 13 th e very last pag e o f th at particu lar docum ent, b u t 13 Q Does D r Rubino m ake available data from which 14 w hat he didn't ask you about w as the chart regarding 14 one can analyze the incidence o f m alignancies am ongst 15 th e results o f findings am ongst the m iners a n d m illers 15 the m iners and m illers in his study? 16 in the talc a rea o f V al C hisone. 16 A Yes, it's published in this docum ent. He deals 17 If you will turn to the --is it the fourth 17 w ith both m iners and w ith both m illers and he looks at 18 p age? 18 actual em ployees a n d the control g roup o f non-em ployees 19 A Yeah. Yes. 19 and he com pares the two. 20 Q W hat do you fm d on the fourth page o f the 20 Q Y ou m entioned m esotheliom a. W hat does the 21 publication version o f the R ubino study? 21 study reflect as m esotheliom a findings in the m iners 22 A There's a sim ple sum m ary o f observed versus 22 and millers in Val Chisone? 23 expected deaths in both m iners and millers. 23 A He found that there w as no evidence o f 24 (Reporter clarification) 24 m esotheliom a in either the m iners or the m illers in 25 It's a sim ple tabulation. 25 their particular m ining operation. 43 (Pages 1223 - 1226) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1227 Page 1229 1 Q So if Johnson & Johnson w as attem pting to edit 1 A W ell, by 2003, they had a larger --what they 2 out o f the m edical literature any findings related to 2 call a "cohort". That's the num ber o f em ployees that 3 other types o f cancer in the Val Chisone workforce, did 3 com prised 1,795 m en w ho had w orked for at least a year 4 they do a good or a bad job? 4 in the m ine and/or the factory betw een 1946 and 1995. 5 A W ell, I'm not aware they tried to edit out, 5 So they basically did the same kind o f study 6 because the prepublication version is as close to 6 but with a larger population. 7 identical to the final published version, and in the 7 Q A nd w hat did they conclude in 2003 as it 8 topic o f mesotheliom a, very clearly there were no 8 relates specifically to mesotheliom a, w hich is the 9 deaths. 9 issue in front o f us in this case? 10 Q Now, you can set that one aside. 10 A W ell, in a sim ple four-line sum m ary they 11 M R PANATIER: H and it to me, please. 11 concluded: 12 M S FROST: O f course. 12 "This study provides additional support for 13 M R PANATIER: Thank you. 13 a n association betw een talc in m in in g an d m illin g and 14 B Y M S FR O ST : 14 non-neoplastic respiratory d is e a s e ..." 15 Q D r R ubino's study is not the only study that 15 Q Stop there. W hat does that mean? 16 relates to the occurrence o f m esotheliom a in talc 16 A W hat they noted was that there were an increase 17 m iners a n d m illers; is th at correct? 17 in som e respiratory diseases in m iners and millers. 18 A Y es, that's correct. O ther people in the 18 Q Does that go back to the silica issue that was 19 m in in g o f co sm etic grade, p harm aceutical grade talcs 19 being discussed in som e o f those earlier docum ents? 20 have certainly looked at the health o f their employees 20 A It is recognized that, certainly back in the 21 over --in m any different m ines around the world. 21 early days, there w as a significant am ount o f dust in 22 Q And in connection with the Rubino study, that 22 the m ine, and that w ould certainly raise the chance o f 23 first one w as published in 1976? 23 respiratory disease, or w hat they call "non-neoplastic 24 A W as it '76? 24 respiratory disease". 25 M S FROST: M r Panatier, what is the 25 Q A nd w hat did they conclude concerning Page 1228 Page 1230 1 publication date? 1 neoplastic respiratory disease? 2 M R PANATIER: W hat? 2 A Then they go on to say: 3 M S FROST: The item. 3 "... w hile show ing no significant excess risk 4 M R PANATIER: This one? The official 4 for lung cancer and mesothelioma". 5 publication date? M arch, '76. 5 Q D id they find any m esotheliom a in the miners 6 M S FROST: A nd I apologize. I try not to do 6 and m illers in their report from 2003? 7 that, but since w e're sharing docum ents, you'll have to 7 A Let me refresh m yself... 8 forgive me. 8 N o, they didn't, no. 9 Q N ow , D r Rubino did follow up studies related to 9 Q 2003 w asn't the last tim e that a researcher 10 the m iners and m illers, did he not? 10 looked at the w orkers w ho had w orked as m iners or 11 A H e and his colleagues, or certainly his 11 m illers in V al C hisone; correct? 12 colleagues as th e y ears p rogressed, yes. 12 A That's correct. The sam e team plus one two 13 Q A nd there is a follow up o f the m ortality study 13 others, th ey lo o k ed a t the sam e m ine operation w ith 14 o f talc m iners and m illers in Italy from 2003, is there 14 even m ore people b y 2013 -- 2017. 15 not? 15 Q I'm handing you w hat I have m arked as num ber 16 A That's right. The sam e m ine, but m ore people. 16 250. 17 Q A nd I have m arked this as 249. 17 (Exhibit 250 m arked for identification) 18 (Exhibit 249 m arked for identification) 18 Are you fam iliar with this paper published in 19 W ho w as the lead author on the follow up in 19 2017 that's entitled M ortality o f Talc M iners and 20 2003? 20 M illers from Val Chisone, Northern Italy? 21 A M aurizio Coggiola. 21 A Y es, I've read this paper, yes. 22 Q All right, and how do w e spell Coggiola? 22 Q A nd w hat is this paper taking a look at? 23 A C-O -G -G -I-O -L-A . H e's an M D . 23 A The aim o f the study was to update the analysis 24 Q W hat did M r C oggiola and his colleagues look at 24 o f m ortality in talc m iners and millers in northern 25 in the 2003 publication? 25 Italy, and they looked at the m ortality from 1946 to 44 (Pages 1227 - 1230) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1231 Page 1233 1 2013 o f 1,722 m ale w orkers in an asbestos free talc 1 the Verm ont talc business. 2 m ine, o f w hich 1,166 w ere m iners and 556 were millers. 2 Q As an aside, w hat w ould be the anticipated 3 Q Is this the same or a different group of 3 levels of exposure to talc for someone working as 4 employees that were evaluated first by D r Rubino and 4 either a m iner or a m iller in a cosmetic talc m ine? 5 then later by D r Coggiola? 5 A They w ould vary. 6 A It's an update o f the group. S o m e -th e re 6 The m iners are exposed traditionally to quite 7 w ere probably som e additions. 7 high levels. Certainly going back to pre-w ar tim e, the 8 Q W hat conclusion, and who is the lead author on 8 quality o f w ork environm ent in the mines was much 9 this one? 9 dustier than it is today. Today there's m ore forced 10 A The lead author was also on the 2003 paper, 10 ventilation, so the air is less dusty. 11 E n rico P ira, M D . P-I-R -A . 11 W hereas the m illers, w orking above ground, 12 Q W hat do the researchers report in 2017 12 are going to b e exposed to m uch less talc dust. 13 co ncerning th eir findings related specifically as to 13 But in both cases there is a pretty well 14 m esotheliom a in the talc m iners and m illers from the 14 eight h our day exposure to som e level o f talc dust on a 15 V al C hisone area o f n o rthern Italy? 15 daily b asis for m any, m any, m an y years. 16 A They concluded simply: 16 Q W as Johnson & Johnson aware o f the Selevan 17 "W e confirm the lack o f association between 17 study in 1979? 18 exposure to asbestos free talc, lung can cer and 18 A Y es, yes. This has been in the com pany files 19 m esotheliom a". 19 since it w as available. 20 Q So w hat does that m ean in plain English? 20 Q W ere you familiar with this study w hen began 21 A It m eant that those m illers and m iners working 21 your w ork in 1976? 22 in that environm ent did not get m esotheliom a or lung 22 Clearly, you w ouldn't have anticipated it in 23 cancer associated w ith their work. 23 '76, but as part o f the jo b that you did as a 24 Q You m ay set that aside. 24 toxicologist, did you becom e familiar with this report 25 The health status o f m iners and m illers who 25 in the tim e period w hen it w as published. Page 1232 Page 1234 1 deal with talc have been evaluated in areas other than 1 A I did, yes. I m ean, it's part o f the jo b to 2 just Italy, have they not? 2 keep up to date w ith the m edical literature. So I was 3 A They have, yes. There are talc mines in 3 certainly aw are o f this one in '79, '80, yes. 4 several countries that m ine cosm etic grade talc. 4 Q You m ay set that aside, and I will hand you 5 Q I'm going to hand you num ber 51. 5 num ber 248. 6 (Exhibit 251 m arked for identification) 6 (Exhibit 248 m arked for identification) 7 Are you familiar with this document? 7 W hat is num ber 248? 8 A Yes, I've read this m any times. 8 A It's a publication from a m edical journal. 9 Q A nd w hat is this? 9 It's the Journal o f Occupational and Environm ental 10 A This is a report from Selevan and colleagues, a 10 M edicine, and it's from 2002, and the title o f the 11 U n ited States report, d ated 1979, a n d th ey lo o k at 11 article is A C o h o rt M o rtality an d N ested C ase C ontrol 12 M o rtality P a tte rn s A m ong M in ers an d M illers o f 12 Study o f French and A ustrian Talc W orkers. 13 N o n -asb estifo rm T alc, a n d this is a prelim in ary report. 13 Q So we have Italian from Rubino, Coggiola and 14 Q W hen you say miners and millers in the United 14 Pira. T hen w e have A m erican from Selevan. 15 S tates, does th a t include an y o f th e a reas w here the 15 This one is French and Austrian? 16 W indsor m ine w as located? 16 A French and Austrian employees, yes. 17 A It did include. Yes, it was done as part o f 17 Q And who was the first author on that one? 18 th e V e rm o n t H ealth D ep artm ent's surveys. 18 A It's M r P W ild. 19 So it relates to the Verm ont talc industry. 19 Q W -I-L-D? 20 Q W hat did Selevan and his colleague D r D em ent 20 A Yes. 21 and others conclude concerning the incidence o f 21 Q W hat did the researchers conclude concerning 22 m esotheliom a am ongst the workers in the m ines in 22 the risk o f health effects to French and Austrian talc 23 Verm ont and their exposure to talc? 23 workers as part o f their evaluation? 24 A They concluded that there was no association 24 A They sum m arized in tw o lines: 25 betw een m esotheliom a and m iners and millers w orking in 25 "The m ortality from non-m alignant respiratory 45 (Pages 1231 - 1234) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1235 Page 1237 1 disease was found to be related to high cumulative 1 general population. 2 exposure to talc dust. The sm all excess in lung cancer 2 Q A nd w hat did they conclude concerning the 3 does not seem to be attributable to talc". 3 existence o f mesotheliom a? 4 Q Do they find any mesotheliom a? 4 A Just let m e double check... 5 A Ju st let m e check, p l e a s e ... 5 They don't report m esotheliom a as a cause o f 6 No, in both the Austrian cohorts they found 6 death. There's no m ention o f m esotheliom a as a cause 7 no cases o f mesothelioma, and in the French group they 7 o f death. 8 found no cases o f m esotheliom a. 8 Q So no m eso reported? 9 Q Are you fam iliar w ith this docum ent, sir? 9 A N o meso reported, no. 10 (Exhibit 246 m arked for identification) 10 Q If one w ere to exclude the original Rubino 11 A Yes, I rem em ber this. 11 stu d y from the list o f epidem iological studies related 12 Q A nd w hat is this? 12 to the relationship betw een talc m iners and m illers and 13 A This is a publication in the Am erican Journal 13 the developm ent o f m esotheliom a, w ould it change the 14 o f Industrial M edicine from 1990 and it is from a 14 conclusion at the end o f the day concerning the 15 N o rw eg ian talc m ine, a cosm etic talc m ine. 15 relationship betw een exposure to cosm etic talc and the 16 The author is Ebba W ergeland. 16 risk o f the developm ent o f m esotheliom a? 17 Q Y ou're going to have to spell that one for me. 17 A N o, it wouldn't. 18 A Y eah. W ergeland. W -E-R -G -E-L-A -N -D , and he oi 18 I m ean, in all these cases w e have several -- 19 she is an M D. 19 certainly w ell over 2,000 em ployees exposed to quite 20 Q And you said that is Norw ay? 20 high levels o f talc dust pretty well all day for 20 or 21 A It is in Norway. Yes, it is Norway, yes. 21 m ore years, and in no case was m esotheliom a ever 22 Q W hat were they studying in the Norw ay 22 reported. 23 employees? 23 Q W hen you combine the historic testing done both 24 A They were essentially looking for the health o f 24 internally by Johnson & Johnson and externally by its 25 employees w ho w ere exposed to talc dust as part o f the 25 consultants with the epidemiological findings o f the Page 1236 Page 1238 1 their job. 1 m edical researchers w ho have looked at the issue o f 2 They looked for mesotheliom a, tuberculosis, 2 developm ent o f disease amongst those who w ork all day 3 pneum oconiosis, lung disease in general. 3 in their w ork day with cosm etic talc products, what 4 Q A nd w hat did they conclude concerning the 4 does that lead you to conclude on behalf o f Johnson & 5 health status o f the Norw egian talc workers? 5 Johnson concerning the risk for development o f 6 A W ell, this was a group o f 94 talc miners and 6 m esotheliom a for users o f its cosmetic talc products? 7 295 talc m illers exposed to non-asbestiform talc, and 7 A Okay. I'm trying to sum m arize that in a couple 8 they com m ented that: 8 o f sentences. 9 "M esotheliom a, tuberculosis or pneum oconiosis 9 It's clear that in none o f the analyses o f 10 w ere not reported as a cause o f death". 10 baby powder talc has anyone found asbestos, and if we 11 Q So no mesotheliom a? 11 lo o k a t som e real life exposure o f people w ho've been 12 A N o m esotheliom a. 12 exposed to quite high levels o f talc dust every day o f 13 Q Are you fam iliar with this one, sir? 13 their lives fo r 20, 30 or m ore years, and no cases are 14 (Exhibit 247 m arked for identification) 14 there reports o f mesothelioma. 15 A Yeah, this is a follow up from the sam e team, 15 Q During the years you worked for Johnson & 16 D r W ergeland in Norw ay. This one is dated 2017 and 16 Joh n so n a n d w ith all the in teraction y o u 'v e had w ith 17 it's published in the A m erican Journal o f Industrial 17 their scientists and the outside experts, w hat w as the 18 M edicine. 18 consensus o f the scientists, both at Johnson & Johnson 19 Q The same set o f Norwegian workers? 19 and on the outside consultants, concerning health risk 20 A It's the sam e workers, yes. 20 for users o f Johnson's cosm etic body pow ders? 21 Q W hat did they conclude? 21 A Assum ing and presum ing that consumers use the 22 A It's essentially a longer follow up w ith m ore 22 product as directed and in a norm al consum er fashion, 23 workers. 23 there w as zero health risk. 24 But they followed up for 24 years, covering 24 Q W hen you talk about "consumers", we talk about 25 1953 to 2011, and they compared the workers with the 25 them in sort o f a hypothetical way. 46 (Pages 1235 - 1238) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1239 Page 1241 1 But as an employee o f Johnson & Johnson, were 1 A It does, yes. That's been the case since the 2 you a user or consum er o f those products yourself? 2 1940s w hen the com pany set up what they call a "company 3 A A bsolutely, yes. I m ean, I've had th re e - - w e 3 credo". 4 have had three - m y wife and I have three children. 4 Q W hat's that? 5 W e certainly used baby powder. 5 A It's an interesting little one page document, 6 All three o f m y children are m arried and have 6 and it's g ot about four paragraphs. 7 families. B etw een them there is an additional eight 7 It was initiated by the then Chairm an o f the 8 grandchildren and I know that I can go into any o f 8 company, General Johnson, and he set out the guiding 9 their hom es and they use talc pow ders, m ostly Johnson's 9 principles that all em ployees have to follow to ensure 10 B aby Powder. 10 that the com pany perform s well. 11 M y m um, w ho passed away a few months ago, 11 Q A nd how does that relate to this? 12 alm o st 99, she u se d Jo hnson's B ab y P o w d er p retty w ell 12 A W ell, the first principle says that we have a 13 all h e r life. 13 responsibility to the users o f our products, nurses, 14 So from a personal view, I have never had any 14 doctors, m um s, babies, et cetera, and the products 15 co ncern fo r m y se lf o r m y fam ily in u sin g b ab y pow der. 15 sh o u ld be safe. 16 Q In connection with the com pany view o f the 16 That's the first principle. 17 efficacy a n d the safety o f Jo hnson's B aby P ow der, yo u 17 Q O ver the years, has Johnson & Johnson kept 18 are here as the corporate representative. 18 abreast o f the developm ent o f the scientific and 19 So w hat is Johnson & Johnson's position, as 19 m edical literature as it relates to talc? 20 w e sit here today, concerning the status o f its 20 A I believe so, yes. 21 cosm etic talc products and the potential for the 21 Certainly, if you look through the company 22 existence o f asbestos in those products? 22 files, you w ill find a lot o f correspondence, a lot o f 23 A The com pany is very clear. There is not and 23 im portant information on the safety o f talc, published 24 never has been any asbestos in the talc products, and 24 in the m edical literature from symposia, meetings. 25 the products are safe to use. 25 There is a great deal o f talc safety Page 1240 Page 1242 1 Q Even though they think that, w hy not just 1 information in the public domain, and the com pany has 2 include a warning? 2 ensured that it keeps up to date w ith that. 3 M r Panatier talked to you for a very long 3 Q If you had to tell someone w hat you think on 4 time about warnings. 4 behalf o f the company about the safety o f the baby 5 Y ou have told us you don't have any concerns 5 pow der or the other cosmetic powders, w hat w ould you 6 about (he product, the com pany doesn't have any 6 tell them? 7 concerns about the product. W hy not ju st throw on a 7 A I w ould tell them that there's no hazard in 8 w arning for the fun o f it? 8 using those products, that they're quite safe to use, 9 A I think the best answ er to that is to recognize 9 and have been since the 1890s. 10 that a w arning should m ean there is an issues. There 10 There's never been any proven issue with 11 is a concern to be avoided. 11 p ro ducts w h en u sed as intended. T h e product is safe. 12 W e seem to put warnings in m any cases where 12 M S FR O ST : Let's go o ff the record. 13 y o u 'v e g o t to q u estio n w a s th at right. I get a cup o f 13 (O ff the record at 3:22 pm ) 14 coffee fro m a w ell kno w n store, it says, "C aution, 14 (On the record at 3:29 pm) 15 p ro d u ct m ay b e hot". I k n o w that. 15 M S FROST: D r Hopkins, those are all the 16 B ut in the case o f talc products, there is 16 qu estio n s I'm g oing to have for y o u this afternoon. 17 never a valid reason to say there is a safety issue 17 I am now going to pass the witness and I 18 w ith th is p roduct. So a w arn in g b eco m es in a sense 18 b eliev e som e o f the o th er law yers w ill have som e 19 irrelevant. 19 questions for you. 20 It can actually devalue the nature o f 20 THE W ITNESS: Thank you. 21 w arnings b y having unnecessary warnings. 21 EXAM INATION: 22 So I believe that there is no valid reason to 22 BY M R GAFFREY: 23 have a warning on this product relating to asbestos. 23 Q Hello, D r Hopkins. 24 Q D oes Johnson & Johnson take seriously its 24 A Hello. 25 responsibility to its customers and users? 25 Q M y nam e is M arc Gafffey. I represent W hittaker 47 (Pages 1239 - 1242) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1243 Page 1245 1 Clark & Daniels. 1 A It is correct, yes. 2 You and I have met a number o f times over the 2 Q And in m y review o f those documents, I have not 3 past few days, have we not? 3 seen a docum ent w hich referenced W hittaker Clark & 4 A We have, yes. 4 Daniels as a source o f talc used either in Johnson & 5 Q And you understand I represent Whittaker Clark 5 Johnson B aby Pow der or Johnson & Johnson Shower to 6 & Daniels in this case? 6 Shower; is that correct? 7 A Ido,yes. 7 A That's correct. I've no t seen it used in 8 Q Just from my own understanding, Johnson & 8 m anufacturing operations for either o f those products. 9 Johnson's Baby Powder was manufactured through the Baby 9 Q Okay. 10 Products division of Johnson & Johnson? 10 Just to conclude that area o f questioning, 11 A Yes. Historically, it was termed Baby Products 11 w o u ld it b e true to the b e st o f y o u r know ledge th at 12 division. It became Consumer Products division back in 12 W h ittak er C lark & D aniels w as n e v er a source o f talc 13 the 1990s, but historically the terminology on 13 u se d in the pro d u ctio n o f either Johnson & Johnson B aby 14 letterhead is Baby Products Company. 14 Pow der or Johnson & Johnson Show er to Show er; is that 15 Q Okay. 15 correct? 16 And, likewise, Shower to Shower, which 16 A T hat's correct. A s far as I'm aw are having 17 I understand became --came into production some time 17 read as m any docum ents --n ot quite 170,000 --b u t I've 18 later; is that correct? 18 n o t seen W hittaker C lark D aniels supply as a source o f 19 A It did, yes. 19 product used for sale to the consum er. 20 Q And I think we established the date some time 20 Q A nd that w ould be for production? 21 during the course of this deposition, but it was a 21 A For production, yes. 22 later period? 22 Q A nd y o u had m ade reference --I forget i f it 23 A It was much later, yes. 23 w as D ay 1 or D ay 2 o f your testim ony --to certain mine 24 Q And was that also produced through the Baby 24 strikes? 25 Product division and later the Consumer Products 25 A There w as a m ine strike in the V erm ont m ine in Page 1244 Page 1246 1 division? 1 the 1980s, as I recollect, yes. 2 A That's correct, yes. 2 Q W as that the only m ine strike, to your 3 Q A nd you are, as you've testified here in the 3 knowledge? 4 past few days, familiar with the suppliers or the 4 A O n the Verm ont m ine, yes, yes. 5 sources o f talc for use in the B aby Product division, 5 Q A nd during that m ine strike, w as it necessary 6 and later the Consum er Product division, throughout 6 for Johnson & Johnson to obtain talc for use in baby 7 your tenure and subsequently in your tim e as a 7 powder and Shower to Shower from some other source? 8 consultant; is that correct? 8 A It was. In fact, for a very short period of 9 A Yes, I read the correspondence that I --has 9 tim e, I think just a few months, they reverted to the 10 b een available to m e to see w ho the suppliers were. 10 historic Italian 00000 talc from the Fontana m ine in 11 Q D uring the past four days o f your testim ony, I 11 Italy. 12 h a v e n o t h e ard y o u reference W h ittak er C lark & D aniels 12 Q Okay. 13 a s a supplier o r a source o f talc to Johnson & Johnson 13 W as there a particular company that sourced 14 for use either in baby pow der or Show er to Show er; is 14 th at talc for use in baby pow der and Show er to Show er 15 th at correct? 15 to Jo h n so n & Jo h n so n fo r pro d u ctio n during the m ine 16 A It's correct. I've not seen W hittaker Clark 16 strike? 17 D an iels' letterh ead o r correspondence in products that 17 A Yeah, the records that I've seen indicate it 18 w e u se d fo r sale to m anufacture S how er to S how er or 18 w as supplied b y C yprus M inerals at that tim e. 19 Johnson's B a b y Pow der. 19 Q I'm going to ask you to assum e for the m om ent 20 Q And, in fact, Johnson & Johnson turned over a 20 that W hittaker Clark & Daniels on M arch 19,1977, sold 21 num ber o f docum ents in this litigation; is that 21 five 50 pound containers o f 141 talc to Johnson & 22 correct? 22 Johnson B aby Products division. 23 A Yes. 23 W ould you have knowledge or an idea o f what 24 Q A n d from w h at I've seen, it's an estim ated 24 that would have been used for? 25 170,000 pages o f docum ents; is that correct? 25 A W ith a hundred per cent certainty I w ouldn't be 48 (Pages 1243 - 1246) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1247 Page 1249 1 sure w hat it w as used for, but that is a very sm all -- 1 A N o, it's the sam e --sam e thing. It's too 2 sm all amount. 2 small. 3 It w ould be too sm all to be used in a 3 It w ouldn't --w ouldn't barely go in the pipe 4 m anufacturing operation, but it's the kind o f am ount 4 w ork o f the production operation. So it's too sm all an 5 that would be used in an R& D operation if R& D were 5 amount. 6 evaluating a talc sam ple for a product. 6 Q A n d w hat i f W hittaker C lark & D aniels sold 12 7 It could well have gone to the research 7 fifty pound containers o f 5251 talc to Johnson & 8 laboratory to see i f it's o f value in the company. 8 Johnson? W ould that have been used in production? 9 (Reporter clarification) 9 A Again, that's too small. 10 A research sample. 10 The production operation m ns by m any tons 11 Q A n d R & D stands for R esearch a n d D evelopm ent? 11 p e r operation. H a lf a ton o f talc w o u ld not - w ould 12 A Research and Development, yes. 12 b arely g o into the m achinery. It's too sm all to be 13 Q And i f Johnson & Johnson had to, or w anted to 13 used. 14 use talc 141 from W hittaker C lark, w hat w ould they have 14 It's the kind o f am ounts that the research 15 h a d to do in o rd e r to b e able to pro d u ce th at talc from 15 g ro u p w o u ld use i f th ey w ere evaluating a sam ple o f 16 th a t m aterial? 16 talc. 17 A That w ould have needed to have gone through a 17 Q W hat about, just using odd numbers, 50 pound 18 fairly d etailed valid atio n process. 18 b ag s o r 50 p o u n d containers o f 3440 talc, w ould th at 19 Part o f that would have been to ensure that 19 have been used in production? 20 it m et, as w e've talked about earlier, the 20 A Again, the same - the same applies. A 50 21 specification. 21 pound sack is ju st too sm all to even get through --you 22 But also that it m atched the fragrance that 22 know, it would never be used in the equipment. 23 w as currently being used and that it processed 23 The equipm ent works by tons, not a few 24 according to the w ay the factory w o uld require it. 24 pounds. So those kind o f numbers, 50 pounds, 100 25 It w ould need to -- the product w ould need to 25 pounds, that's the kind o f thing that the research and Page 1248 Page 1250 1 be put on stability. The product w ould need to have 1 developm ent group could well be evaluating. 2 been evaluated by consumers. 2 Q So you can state with reasonable certainty that 3 So they could well have --they w ould use 3 if W hittaker Clark & Daniels delivered a 50 pound - 4 those kind o f four 50 pound sacks - could well have 4 50 - 50 - 50 pound containers o f talc to Johnson & 5 been done for a prelim inary evaluation. 5 Johnson, it w ould not be used in production for either 6 Q But it would not have been feasible to Johnson 6 Johnson & Johnson Baby Pow der or Shower to Shower? 7 & Jo h n so n to u se the five 50 p o u n d containers o f 141 7 A Yes, I can. W ith reasonable certainty, that is 8 talc in the production? 8 the case, yes. 9 A No. N o, the production uses am ounts in the 9 Q Thank you. 10 tonnages, not a few hundred pounds. 10 A Thank you. 11 You w ould not have -- you would not have used 11 M R GAFFREY: A nd I appreciate your endurance. 12 th e equipm ent for that. 12 M R PA N A TIER: A ll right. Let's go o ff the 13 It's m ore likely -- and, again, I'm only 13 record. 14 guessing -- it sounds m ore like an R & D project. 14 (O ff the record at 3:39 pm) 15 R esearch a n d d evelopm ent project. 15 (On the record at 3:44 pm) 16 Q A nd you can state with reasonable certainty, 16 EXAM INATION: 17 th en, th at th e 141 talc -- the five 50 p o u n d containers 17 B Y M R P A N A T IE R 18 fro m W h ittak er C lark & D aniels w as n o t used in 18 Q W e're g oing to pro ceed w ith m y questions i f 19 production? 19 no one else on the phone has questions. 20 A W ith reasonable certainty, it's too sm all an 20 The next exhibit is 252. 21 am ount to ship to production. 21 (Exhibit 252 m arked for identification) 22 Q And, likewise, if W hittaker Clark & Daniels 22 Here you go, sir. 23 shipped to Johnson & Johnson Baby Products division 23 A Thank you. 24 three 50 pound containers on January 19,1979, that 24 Q Sir, can you see that this is a letter dated 25 w ould not have been used in production? 25 February 16,1970; it's from D onald Ferry at Chas 49 (Pages 1247 - 1250) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1251 Page 1253 1 M athieu to R obert G Smith at W hittaker Clark & Daniels? 1 Q A nd W hittaker C lark & D aniels is saying they're 2 A That's w hat it says on the letter, yes. 2 prepared supply more; right? 3 Q D o you understand the questions that you were 3 A Yes. 4 ju st given w ere from the law yer from W hittaker Clark & 4 Q Okay. You can set that aside, sir. 5 Daniels; right? 5 W hat I w ant to do is I kind o f - - 1w ant to 6 A Yes. 6 start near the end, because you recall that you were 7 Q Okay. 7 asked to look at the Rubino paper and the 8 So D on Ferry says here to the President of 8 prepublication version; right? 9 W hittaker Clark & Daniels: 9 A Yes. 10 "D ear B o b ..." 10 Q Right. Okay. I'm going to leave this Post-it 11 A nd then he says: 11 o n there. 12 "W e have been reviewing the situation o f 12 And you were shown -- remember yesterday we 13 M etro p o litan T alc C o a n d its future operations here in 13 established R ubino w ro te tw o pap ers in the '70s; right? 14 th is office a n d believe th at because o f the recent 14 A He wrote a paper that was published in the 15 dev elopm ents, th at serious consideration sh o u ld be 15 A m erican Journal o f H ygiene. 16 given to the raising o f price on all grades o f C anadian 16 Q W ell, no, he published one that was published 17 T alc cu rren tly sold. W hile ou r initial estim ate o f the 17 in the Journal o f O ccupational M edicine? 18 situation se e m e d to indicate a m o re gradual approach to 18 A Occupational M edicine, yes. 19 the problem , several things have occurred w hich we 19 Q A nd then he wrote a second one published in the 20 believe m ake it reasonable to increase prices alm ost 20 Society for Occupational and Environm ental Health; 21 im m ediately". 21 correct? 22 That's ju st our context; okay. 22 A Okay. I've not seen that. W as that the one we 23 "The large loss sustained last year by 23 discussed yesterday? 24 M etropolitan was caused by failure o f prices to m eet 24 Q It indeed is. 25 the costs o f producing at South Plain-field. A s you 25 A A nd w hat w as reference for the publication? Page 1252 Page 1254 1 are well aware, w e have received the initial order from 1 Q So the reference o f the publication was the 2 Johnson & Jo h n so n o f N e w B ru n sw ick fo r 1100 tons o f ... 2 ex h ib it w h ich I can show you. 3 1615 talc to cover the period o f February 23rd through 3 B ut here's the first one; okay. Rem em ber 4 June 15th." 4 there was a m ortality study? 5 N ow , 1,100 tons is a lot m ore than a couple 5 A Yes. 6 o f 50 pound bags; right? 6 Q A nd a m orbidity study, remember? 7 A It is, yes. 7 A Yes, yes. 8 Q A nd 1615 is Italian talc; correct? 8 Q A nd I asked you the question. I said: 9 A It is, yes. That's m y understanding, yes. 9 m ortality m eans death; m orbidity m eans illness? 10 Q Right. 10 A Correct. 11 "They have indicated great concern to us that 11 Q Right. 12 i f S how er to S how er should m eet w ith g o o d m arket 12 So you were looking at the m ortality study. 13 approval, th ey m ig h t have to increase th is tonnage and 13 T h at w a s the first study; right? 14 w o n d e r ab o u t o u r abilities to supply. W e have assu red 14 A Yes. 15 th em th at w ith the existing bu sin ess w e have in hand, 15 Q 1976 is w hen it actually ended up in the 16 w e could take care o f betw een 2000 and 2500 tons on an 16 Journal o f O ccupational M edicine? 17 an n u al basis." 17 A Yes, and o f course it also discusses other 18 D id I read that right? 18 diseases. 19 A You did, yes. 19 Q Right. 20 Q A ll right. 20 If you want to finish today, you just got to 21 So on the basis o f an actual document, we 21 answ er the questions; okay? 22 know that Johnson & Johnson actually ordered 1,100 tons 22 A Yes. 23 o f Italian from W hittaker Clark & Daniels at som e point 23 Q Okay. All right. 24 before February 16,1970; correct? 24 Now, w hat you were shown by Ms Frost was the 25 A That's w hat it w ould im ply, yes. 25 prepublication copy w hich you and I asked about 50 (Pages 1251 - 1254) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1255 Page 1257 1 yesterday. 1 ju st broken down by m iners and m illers; right? 2 A Yes. 2 A Correct. 3 Q Now , the prepublication copy, that entire 3 Q Okay. 4 packet is dated M arch 20,1978? 4 Because then he has other tables broken down 5 A Yes. 5 by amounts o f exposure; right? 6 Q Now, unless Johnson & Johnson bought D r Rubino 6 A Correct. 7 a tim e m achine, he could not have given them a 7 Q So let's ju st look at -- the easiest one to 8 prepublication copy o f the second article, the 8 look at is m iners and m illers there? 9 m orbidity article, before that article cam e out; 9 A Yes. 10 correct? 10 Q On that page? 11 A And w hat was the date o f the m orbidity article? 11 A Yes. 12 Q M arch 20,1978. 12 Q A nd you can see there's different cancers that 13 A Okay. 13 are reported; correct? 14 Q Okay. 14 A Correct. 15 So w hen you were comparing the 15 Q There are a few elevated cancers, but not by 16 p rep u blication, an d M s F ro st w rote it up there. She 16 m uch in th at publication; is that right? 17 w rote: p republication? 17 A T hat is right, yes. 18 A Yes. 18 Q Okay. 19 Q And publication? 19 Now, it sounded to m e like what you guys were 20 A Yes. 20 trying to do w as to suggest that the data that I said 21 Q The prepublication copy w as for the article 21 didn't m ake it into the m orbidity study w as actually in 22 published in 1979. W e do not have a prepublication 22 the m orbidity study; right? 23 copy o f the one published in '76. 23 A W ell, that's w hat you're saying. 24 Do you have that straight now? 24 Q W ell, that's w hat you guys w ere doing; right? 25 A M ay I look at the exhibit? 25 A That's w hat you're saying. Page 1256 Page 1258 1 Q O f course. T here it is, and y o u can see in the 1 Q That's w hat I'm saying you w ere doing; am I 2 top com er the R ubino m orbidity study; right? 2 right? 3 A nd the date on th at is 1978? 3 A I'm not sure how you're interpreting it. S o - 4 A Yes. 4 Q Okay. 5 Q Okay? 5 A --let's pass on that one. 6 A Yeah. 6 Q Sure. Okay. W e'll pass. W e'll come back to 7 Q A n d th e n y o u can see th is is th e p rep u b licatio r 7 that; okay? 8 co py for the m orbidity study; right? 8 A Yes. 9 A T h at is the date, yes. 9 Q So this is the data from the second study that 10 Q Okay. 10 I'm putting in front o f you, all right, and it reports 11 N ow , the m ortality study also had data on J 1 on cancers o f larynx, oesophagus, stomach; okay? 12 cancers; rig h t? 12 A It does, yes. 13 A Yes. 13 Q A nd you have the data from the previous study 14 Q Okay. 14 there. 15 N ow go ahead and turn to the page that 15 A Yes. 16 M s F ro st flag g ed fo r you; okay? 16 Q Right. 17 So the first study h ad data on cancers? 17 N ow , if you look at the observed and expected 18 A Yes. 18 and you com pare it w ith the second study, it is a 19 Q T he second study, w hich you have seen the 19 different data set; correct? 20 actual publication, did n o t except fo r lung cancer; 20 A It is, and I believe I said h alf an hour ago 21 correct? 21 th at the reports w ere essentially sim ilar. 22 A Yes. 22 Q Except that the raw data from the second paper 23 Q A ll right. 23 never m ade it into the paper; right? 24 So you are looking at the first publication 24 A T hat's an interpretation, yes. 25 an d it has -- w h a t y o u 're lo o k in g at o n th at p a g e is 25 Q W ell, that's a fact, isn't it? 51 (Pages 1255 - 1258) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1259 Page 1261 1 A Y es. It is, yes. 1 A That was their proposal, yes. 2 Q A ll right, sir. Y ou can set that aside. 2 Q Okay. 3 O kay. S o n o w w e're g o in g to ju m p around 3 "The conclusion is based on the human 4 again. W e're g o in g to g o to th e y ear 2000. 4 epidem iology studies that purportedly link Talc use in 5 (B riefly o ff the record) 5 the perineal area w ith ovarian cancer. The web address 6 T his w ill be 253. 6 ... [is yada yada] T he N T P B oard o f Scientific 7 (E xhibit 253 m arked for identification) 7 C ounselors is scheduled to m eet D ecem ber 13 or 14 to 8 H ere y o u go, sir. 8 review the conclusion. A ttention from the press m ay be 9 E xhibit 253 is a m em o b y the C T FA , dated 9 expected before then, how ever, since the report is 10 O cto b er 1 0 ,2 0 0 0 ; do y o u see that? 10 publicly available. 11 A I do, yes. 11 CTFA has contacted a consultant in 12 Q A n d it's fro m L in d a L o retz, w h o w e h ave 12 epidem iology to determ ine i f sufficiently high pow ered 13 d iscu ssed b efo re; right? 13 epidem iologists w ill b e available to question the 14 A Yes. 14 studies being used to support the ovarian cancer 15 Q A n d she's w ith th e C T F A ; true? 15 concern, along w ith a cost estim ate. A crisis 16 A She is, yes. 16 m anagem ent firm has also b een contacted to determ ine 17 Q Y ou have talked som e about the N T P , the 17 the cost o f preparing for the expected public interest. 18 N atio n al T o x ico lo g ical P ro g ram ; right? 18 W h en th is inform ation is received, it w ill be forw arded 19 A Yes. 19 to the T ask Force for review and support." 20 Q A nd ju st to m ake it clear, ultim ately the N T P 20 So the industry was kind o f scrambling to 21 w as considering talc w ith no asbestos in it; right? 21 reply to this; right? 22 A T hat is correct, yes. 22 A Yes, the industry was putting together their 23 Q R ight. 23 position to defend the safety o f talc. 24 So w hen M s F rost w rote on her board, "N TP, 24 Q A nd ultim ately they put forth their position; 25 n o t a c arc in o g e n - talc n o t a carc in o g e n ", th ey w e re 25 right? Page 1260 Page 1262 1 only considering talc that had no asbestos in it; 1 A They did, yes. 2 correct? 2 Q A nd they persuaded the N TP not to find that 3 A They w ere considering the w ord "asbestiform 3 non-asbestos talc w as a carcinogen; right? 4 free talc". 4 A T hat was the outcome o f the dialogue, yes. 5 Q Right, w hich i f it's asbestiform free, it's 5 Q A ll right. 6 asbestos free; correct? 6 This next one will be som ething - 254. That 7 A Correct. 7 w ill be quicker. 8 Q All right. 8 (Exhibit 254 m arked for identification) 9 A nd you're aware that both the N TP and IARC 9 So this is an email, and, sir, you can see 10 consider talc containing asbestos to be a carcinogen; 10 that this is from R ichard Z azenski and he is at 11 correct? 11 L uzenac; correct? 12 A They do. 12 A Correct. 13 Q A nd Johnson & Johnson w ould agree with that; 13 Q Okay. 14 correct? 14 A nd this is dated January 2 ,2001, so this is 15 A Correct. 15 ju s t a couple o f m onths after th e N T P announced th eir 16 Q A ll right. 16 proposal; right? 17 So for background, here's w hat she said: 17 A Yes. 18 "The N TP background docum ent addressing the 18 Q A nd num ber 1 says: 19 listing o f T alc in the R eport on C arcinogens w as posted 19 "Jim congratulated us for a fine victory, but 20 on the NTP webpage today, with the conclusion that 20 suggested w e not get too confident ju st yet. He 21 N o n-asb estifo rm T a l c ..." 21 confirm ed that the talc session w as quite an 22 So non-asbestos talc: 22 em barrassm ent for N TP but that m ight also m otivate them 23 "... is 'reasonably anticipated to be a hum an 23 to address the talc definition issue w ith greater 24 carcinogen'". 24 resolve". 25 So that w as w hat was proposed by NTP; right? 25 Now , before w e m ove on into the rest o f this 52 (Pages 1259 - 1262) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1263 Page 1265 1 thing, w e've been talking a lot about definitions in 1 A Again, I repeat w hat I said. Johnson & Johnson 2 this case; right? 2 ow n the company, babycenter.com . It was a com pany the) 3 A Yes. 3 purchased. 4 Q W hat is asbestos? W hat is asbestiform ? The 4 Part o f that rem it is that they have zero 5 difference betw een massive tremolite and asbestiform 5 control over w hat is w ritten on the website. 6 trem olite, and so forth; right? 6 So the idea o f influence is --it just does 7 A Yes. 7 not exist, either for or against any com m ent on the 8 Q Now, the industry was using sort o f a 8 website. 9 definition defense with the NTP; correct? 9 Q Johnson & Johnson ow ns babycenter.com ? 10 A That's -- that is possible, yes. 10 A They own the company. 11 Q All right. 11 Q Has no control over them? 12 W ell, if you go down to the second to last 12 A B ut has no control over the editorial content. 13 p aragraph, M r Z azenski, w h o is at L uzenac, n o w Im erys, 13 Q A ll right. 14 says: 14 A nd we're not to read it one w ay or another 15 "We, the talc industry, dodged a bullet in 15 i f Johnson & Jo h n so n links to babycenter.com on the 16 D ecem ber based entirely on the confusion over the 16 Johnson & Johnson.com w ebsite? 17 d efin itio n issue". 17 A W e can interpret any w ay w e wish, but the 18 Do you see that? 18 reality is th at Jo h n so n & Johnson has zero control over 19 A That's w hat he has written. 19 the co n ten t o f the w ebsite, the w ay it's w ritten. 20 Q All right, sir. Y ou can set that aside. 20 Q That's not the question I asked. 21 Okay. Let's go back tow ards the beginning o f 21 The question I asked is: w e're not to take it 22 the questions asked by M s Frost. 22 as any type o f endorsement that Johnson & Johnson 23 Now, you said at the beginning o f your 23 offers babycenter.com as a resource to people on their 24 exam ination and at the end, you said talc is safe for 24 ow n website; correct? 25 use, including baby talc; right? 25 A Again, Johnson & Johnson owns the company, but Page 1264 Page 1266 1 A Yes. 1 not the content. So w hat is w ritten on the w ebsite is 2 Q Now, I show ed you a website controlled by 2 not endorsed by Johnson & Johnson. 3 Johnson & Johnson yesterday where Johnson & Johnson 3 Q O ther than linking to it and saying: you can go 4 says skip the powder because it can be harmful to 4 here for information; right? 5 baby's lungs; right? 5 A Yeah, absolutely. 6 A W ell, the website is not controlled by Johnson 6 Q So, as you sit here today, people should 7 & Johnson. T hey have zero influence on editorial 7 continue to powder their babies with Johnson & 8 content. 8 Johnson's talc; right? 9 Q Okay. 9 A Yes. 10 W ell, it is called babycenter.com ; right? 10 Q Okay. 11 A Y eah, it's a that com pany Johnson & Johnson 11 Now , you also serve as a consultant in some 12 p u rch ased som e tim e ago. 12 litigation; right? 13 Q Okay. 13 A I have done, yes. 14 A But they have zero control over the content. 14 Q I never asked you the question: about how often 15 Q Okay. 15 do you w ork as a consultant in litigation in term s o f 16 Johnson & Johnson endorses w hat they say; 16 either hours or your total tim e? 17 right? 17 A Probably once --typically, once every six, 18 A It depends how you define "endorses". 18 nine, ten m onths. 19 A s I say, they have zero control over the 19 Q Okay. 20 content. So if you have zero control over w hat is 20 Now, we w ent through a num ber o f studies 21 w ritten, y ou cannot have the grounds to endorse it. 21 yesterday, or tw o days ago, from the '50s and '60s that 22 Q W ell, let me give you a hypothesis. 22 Battelle did where they were looking in the actual 23 W ould Johnson & Johnson be endorsing it if 23 proportion o f the talc process that would ultim ately go 24 they had num erous links to BabyCenter on the Johnson & 24 into the end product, and they were finding tremolite; 25 Johnson.com website? 25 do you recall that? 53 (Pages 1263 - 1266) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1267 1 A They claim to find a type o f tremolite, yes. 1 Page 1269 Internally, the non-talc needles, those are 2 Q N ow , that's m y follow up. Y ou kept saying they 2 tremolite. T hat was w ritten by Johnson & Johnson; do 3 found trem olite and w e don't know w hether it w as 3 you recall that? 4 fibrous or m assive; right? 4 A That was an analysis done in 1971 o f 344L talc, 5 A Correct. 5 and I'm absolutely certain that that w as re-evaluated 6 Q Johnson & Johnson, in response to those 6 and show n to be not asbestos. 344L is not a talc 7 B attelle studies, never went back and said: let us know 7 product. 8 w hat proportion, if any, is fibrous as opposed to 8 Q Right. T here w as a longer story to this; 9 massive; correct? 9 right. 10 A I've not seen that in the literature, although, 10 A Sorry, not a needle talc product with 11 historically, w e k now the an sw er to th at b ecause w e 11 trem olite. 12 k n o w th at th ere w as n o asbestos trem olite in the m ines 12 (Reporter clarification) 13 th at w ere b ein g the source o f supply. 13 Okay. That 344L grade talc was shown to be 14 Q Can we go to the board. Thanks. 14 free from asbestos. 15 So these were the studies w e w ent through, 15 Q W hat w as shown, let's be very clear, is that 16 and from the '50s, and in '48 you w ere asked about that 16 Colorado School o f M ines w ent to a m eeting w ith 17 docum ent. T h at w as ju s t a governm ental do cu m en t th at 17 everybody, including Johnson & Johnson, on 3 A u g u st and 18 sa id there w a s serpentine an d asbestos in V erm ont talc 18 on 6 A ugust they w rote back and said: now that w e w ent 19 generally; right? 19 to that m eeting, w e rem em ber that w e contam inated all 20 A Yes. Certainly back in the '40s, as I've read, 20 the samples; right? 21 th ere w ere som ething like 50 talc m ines in V erm ont. 21 A W hat they said in a follow up: w e've evaluated 22 Q Okay. W ell - 22 the product again and we do not find any asbestos or 23 A N ot necessarily the one that J& J were using. 23 trem olitic talc that's asbestosform in your product. 24 Q W ell, the Battelle studies were Johnson & 24 And that pretty well reflects dozens upon 25 Johnson's tests o f the Italian talc that it w as using; 25 dozens o f different analyses conducted on the same talc Page 1268 Page 1270 1 correct? 1 source over m any decades. N o asbestos. 2 A That is correct, yes. 2 Q Right. So he got back, rem em bered he had 3 Q Okay. 3 contam inated everything and told Johnson & Johnson; 4 And you don't dispute the conclusions o f 4 right? 5 Battelle; right? 5 A I can only hypothesize, I can speculate, and 6 A No. 6 you can hypothesize or speculate, but it could well 7 Q N ow , for instance, you've said none o f it was 7 have been that they went back and said: hey, we better 8 fibrous, or none o f it was asbestos, and you have 8 check that again. They checked it again and they came 9 continued to say that. 9 out w ith a conclusion that there was no asbestos in the 10 But, for instance, this is ju st one m em o that 10 product. 11 y o u an d I lo o k ed a t in 1967 w here th ey w ere looking at 11 Q The precise opposite conclusion they had 12 so m ebody else's product, an d th ey said: 12 reached tw o m onths earlier; right? 13 "Baby-mate is greater than or less than - - 1 13 A Two months? Two days? 14 can't read anym ore -- .5 p e r cent fibrous trem olite". 14 Q One m onth earlier? 15 R ig h t? 15 A One m onth earlier. 16 A That relates to Baby-M ate. 16 Q Right? 17 Q That's right, and then they said: this com pares 17 A Yeah, because they probably re-evaluated ale 18 to o u r Italian nu m b er 1 talc. 18 found out that they h ad m isinterpreted their results. 19 A The definition o f "compares" is not given 19 Q Now, we also w ent over the fact that Dr Langer 20 there. Com pares could m ean in term s o f whiteness or 20 edited his estim ate o f the am ount o f asbestos in 21 feel. T here's n o necessarily m ineralogical 21 Johnson & Johnson's B aby Pow der dow n; correct? 22 relationship. 22 A Yes, correct. 23 Q Okay. W ell, if you w ant to dispute that one, 23 Q Correct. But he never said it was asbestos 24 let's look a t som e others. 24 free, did he? 25 Let's do -- let's do this one. 25 A I don't think that was the intent o f his 54 (Pages 1267 - 1270) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1271 Page 1273 1 article, his study. 1 This has reference to our discussion in New 2 Q In fact, he told J& J internally at a m eeting: I 2 Y ork regarding the proposed FD A regulations for talc 3 still think your stuff has chrysotile in it; correct? 3 for food and food packaging m aterials w herein it is 4 A He did, and the reason for that is that Dr 4 stated th a t'... since talc can be processed to rem ove 5 Langer did not have the ability to distinguish between 5 asbestos-form particles, it is prudent to require that 6 chrysotile and chlorite talc. 6 talc w hich is to be used in the manufacture o f food or 7 They give the same reading on the x-ray 7 food pack ag in g be free o f asbestos-form p articles'. I 8 diffraction machine. 8 recall the result o f that study concluded that the talc 9 Q You recall from the m em orandum , and I don't 9 could not be processed to com pletely rem ove tremolite, 10 w ant to have to dig it out, but he did it by x-ray -- 10 even b y your m ost technologically advanced m ethods o f 11 h e d id it b y T E M ? 11 beneficiation". 12 A He did, yes. 12 If you'll ju st verify that I read that 13 Q Yes. Okay. A ll right. 13 correctly? 14 TEM , you can't confuse chlorite and 14 A Y ou did. 15 chrysotile, can you? 15 Q All right. 16 A You need to be an expert to look at that, and 16 So Johnson & Johnson has told these folks: we 17 certainly th o se findings w ere n ev er confirm ed b y any 17 can't get rid o f elongate particles, including 18 o th er research. 18 trem olite; correct? 19 Q Okay. So one o f the exhibits that you were 19 A The reference is to a discussion in New York 20 show n w as Exhibit 41, M s Frost brought up the fact that 20 regarding the proposed FD A regulation, and the 21 the talc u sed b y Johnson & Johnson undergoes a 36-step 21 regulation states that talc can be processed to rem ove 22 washing process; right? 22 asbestiform particles. It's prudent to require that it 23 A Yes. 23 not be used. So the FD A are stating that, yes. 24 Q Okay. 24 Q R ight. T he FD A had proposed a regulation to -- 25 Now, Johnson & Johnson understands, and of 25 and in that they had said it is possible to remove Page 1272 Page 1274 1 course you and I talked yesterday about it, the fact 1 elongate minerals, including trem olite; correct? 2 that, regardless o f how m any tim es they w ashed the 2 A W ell, that w as the FD A 's opinion. 3 talc, elongate m inerals still got through into the 3 Q T hat's right, and w h at Johnson & Johnson's 4 final product; correct? 4 o p in io n w as w as no, y o u can 't; right? 5 A Y ou could certainly get talc shards coming 5 A Correct, yes. 6 through and sm all granular talc com ing through in the 6 Q Okay. 7 fines, yes. 7 A ll right, sir. So you can hand that back. 8 Q Including trem olite; correct? 8 In fact, I'll ju st give you the second page 9 A There m ay well be non-fibrous tremolite. 9 and you can verify that Colorado School o f M ines was 10 Q This will be Exhibit 255. 10 echoing the sam e sentim ent? 11 (Exhibit 255 m arked for identification) 11 A Yes. 12 A ll right, sir. B ecause I'm ju st responding 12 Q Okay. 13 to s tu ff o n cross, I d o n't h av e copies, so I'll ju s t 13 Now , if there w as no elongated tremolite 14 give you a copy. 14 present in the talc, they could have sim ply ju st said 15 MS FROST: Okay. 15 th at, b u t th ey d id not; right? 16 M R P A N A T IE R : A ll right, sir. I'm going to 16 A W ell, the sentence states w hat it states. 17 re ad th is to y o u a n d th en I'm g oing to give it to you; 17 Q In neither letter did they say: there is no 18 okay. 18 elongated trem olite in our talc, d id they? 19 A Okay. 19 A W ell, from D esert M inerals, Johnson & Johnson 20 Q Because I only have the one copy; okay? 20 has never used D esert M inerals talc. 21 A Okay. 21 So I'm n o t sure th ey w ould go to th at level 22 Q This is a letter from February 8 ,1 9 7 3 . It's 22 o f m inute detail. 23 from D esert M inerals -- it says an A m erican m ineral 23 Q I f they w eren't using - if they w eren't using 24 com pany, a Johns M anville affiliate - to Bill Ashton: 24 D esert M inerals talc, then they w ould say: w e don't 25 "D ear Bill: 25 know what can be rem oved from your talc; right? 55 (Pages 1271 - 1274) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1275 Page 1277 1 A Again, that's a hypothesis. I f you're given a 1 Q But they never said they m isread this, did 2 quick one paragraph, two sentence reply, you give a two 2 they? 3 sentence reply. You don't necessarily go to the 3 A T hey did not. 4 m inutiae and what can and cannot be done. 4 Q Okay. 5 So I'm not going to specify or hypothesize 5 Let's look at --by thickness, I'm going to 6 w hat m ight or m ight not have been stated. 6 pass on this one. 7 Q You know, a lot o f tim es w hen I ask you a 7 A Thank you. 8 question, and you say that's a hypothesis. 8 Q I'm going to skip som e o f this stuff. Okay. 9 How m any tim es did you tell M s Frost that her 9 Okay. This is Exhibit 56, dated 10 questions w ere hypotheses? 10 Septem ber 25, '72, and this is a m eeting about Show er 11 A W ell, I'm not sure I got questions so m uch as 11 to S how er w ith the FD A ; okay? 12 co m m ent o n th e data. 12 A Thank you. 13 Q Okay. 13 Q A nd you were asked some questions about that. 14 A I think you're providing m e w ith a hypothesis 14 A nd throughout that document, Johnson & 15 an d, as a scientist as w ell, I'll actu ally p ick u p a 15 Johnson is reiterating, th ey are telling the FD A 16 hypothesis and say: that's a good idea, or that's w orth 16 there's no asbestos in Show er to Shower; correct? 17 testing. 17 A Yes. 18 Q Num ber 44 is M cCrone Shower to Shower. You 18 Q Okay. 19 w e re a sk ed a b o u t th at docum ent; correct? 19 A nd w e know, however, that as o f Septem ber 3, 20 A Yes. 20 1971 --w hat's the date o f that? 21 Q Okay? 21 A Septem ber 25, '72. 22 A Yes. 22 Q Okay, so a year earlier M cCrone had identified 23 Q All right. 23 chrysotile in an additive that was going into Shower to 24 Y o u said: w ell, the final says there's no 24 Shower; correct? 25 asbestos, there's no chrysotile. 25 A They reported on a G -l 1 sam ple that they claim Page 1276 Page 1278 1 W ill you look at the flagged portion o f the 1 to have found chrysotile, but -- 2 final report from M cCrone? I highlighted a little bit 2 Q A nd did that --was that reported to the FDA? 3 up there. W hat does that say? 3 A B ut m y recollection, and I don't have the paper 4 A "We have, however, found traces o f chrysotile 4 in front o f me, is that a re-evaluation was done on 5 in G -l 1..." 5 G -l 1 w hich did not confirm chrysotile. 6 It says: 6 That's probably som ething w e could look in 7 "... one o f the additives to Show er to 7 the documentation. 8 Shower". 8 Q W ell, their point is there's no asbestos in 9 Q Right, so if something is an additive to Shower 9 Show er to Shower. That's w hat they're telling the FDA; 10 to Show er, that m eans it's added to it; right? 10 right? 11 A Yes. 11 A They are. 12 Q A nd M cC rone found chrysotile in it; right? 12 Q W e know that, what, a year later the FDA found 13 A A t that point, they claim to have found 13 107,000 fibers o f trem olite p e r gram in S how er to 14 chrysotile, b u t if I m ay respond? 14 Show er; correct? 15 Q It was just a hypothesis? 15 A B y the FD A m ethod at that time. 16 A It was a finding o f a confusion between sodium 16 Q M m m hm m . Okay. So they did find it, right? 17 sesqui citrate, w h ich looks like chrysotile, and that's 17 Y ou alw ays say: well, by that m ethod they 18 m isidentified. 18 found it; right? 19 Q Did they say that there? 19 A I'd like to --before I com m ent on that, I'd 20 A N ot in this one, no. It's on a later one I 20 like to see that FD A report. 21 found that chrysotile can look like sodium sesqui 21 Q I am not going to dig every paper out o f here. 22 citrate in a M cCrone report. 22 A Okay. 23 Q In general - in general, chrysotile can look 23 Q I f you w ant to w e can do it, or I w ill try to 24 like sodium sesqui citrate; correct? 24 rem em ber to do it at the very end; okay? 25 A Correct. 25 A Thank you. 56 (Pages 1275 - 1278) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 Q It was an optical method? Page 1279 1 Q Okay. Page 1281 2 A It was an optical m ethod, yes. 2 A N ot for asbestos, no. 3 Q Yes. It w as optical m icroscopy, so it w asn't 3 Q You ever run a TEM ? 4 XRD? 4 A N o. I said earlier I'm not a transm ission 5 A Yeah. 5 electron m icroscopist. 6 Q All right? 6 People w ho do that are experts in their 7 A But by fibers, you cannot tell whether 7 field. 8 trem olite is a fiber o f trem olite or a sim ple talc 8 Q M mmhmm. 9 fiber. 9 Have you ever done XRD? 10 A nd one o f the issues around talc is that you 10 A N o, I've not. 11 g e t fibrous talc w hich, a s I h av e said before, talc is 11 Q AH right. 12 n o rm ally a plate, a n d w h en y o u roll it up it looks like 12 A I said earlier that's an expert job that people 13 th at, an d y o u get a m isinterpretation th at it's a 13 d o th at ju s t as th eir job. 14 fiber. 14 Q Okay. I'm going to read to you from the cover 15 So I just question the w ord "fiber" and 15 o f E x h ib it 67, w hich is the F D A test th at w e lo o k ed at 16 trem olite together. 16 tw o days ago, and then I'll let y ou look at it. 17 Q You've done that now for four days. 17 Description o f the work: 18 So w hat you're doing now is you're now saying 18 "The 200 comm ercial cosmetic talc samples 19 m ay b e the F D A screw ed u p an d th ey m isidentified talc as 19 ev alu ated b y D r L ew in w ill be tested for asbestos by 20 tremolite? 20 refractory optical m icroscopy. After installation o f 21 A I'm saying that, w ith a m icroscope, you cannot 21 the autom ated x-ray pow der diffractom eter and the 22 identify trem olite w ith an optical m icroscope. 22 high-tem perature differential thermal analyzer, 23 You can identify fiber, w hich under a 23 instrum ent analytical m ethodology will be perfected to 24 m icroscope could be a fiber o f trem olite, could be a 24 a degree that asbestos can be determined reliably and 25 fiber o f any chem ical, any other ingredient that comes 25 speedily at concentrations o f less than one per cent". Page 1280 Page 1282 1 in a fibrous form. 1 Okay? 2 But com m only you will find fibrous talc when 2 A Yes. 3 you look under a m icroscope because talc on edge looks 3 Q So you're aware o f the different techniques 4 like a fiber. Talc w hen it's rolled looks like a 4 he's using; right? 5 fiber. 5 A Yes, yes. 6 So without seeing the detailed report again, 6 Q H e is using techniques that can identify the 7 w e ju st have it there were 107,000 fibers. 7 m ineral, isn't he? 8 B ut trem olite -- to identify trem olite, you 8 A If he's using x-ray diffraction as an initial 9 need to go dow n to the next level o f -- 9 screen. 10 Q I'm going to object to all o f this as 10 Q A n d th at's w h at he's saying. H e's saying he's 11 n o n-responsive. 11 u sin g that, refracto ry optical m icroscopy, w hich also 12 Let's take a break. I'm going to pull out 12 can identify the m ineral, can't it? 13 th at study. 13 A It can, yes. 14 (O ff the record at 4:17 pm) 14 Q Okay. 15 (O n the record at 4:18 pm) 15 A nd high-tem perature differential thermal 16 B Y M R P A N A T IE R : 16 analysis; right? 17 Q Are a m icroscopist? 17 A Yes. 18 A I'm not a m icroscopist. I have certainly used 18 Q W hich you guys actually had a spec for for 19 o p tical m icroscopes in m y w o rk in g life. 19 looking for chrysotile; correct? 20 Q Okay. 20 A Yes. 21 Have you ever looked at talc for asbestos? 21 Q A nd then he says, for num ber 84 --w e saw this: 22 A N ot under a microscope, no. 22 "Sample # 84 contained 107 fibers o f 23 Q Have you ever looked at -- have you ever looked 23 trem olite/actinolite per mg". 24 at --in any substance for asbestos particles? 24 A nd a m illigram is one one thousandth o f a 25 A No. 25 gram; right? 57 (Pages 1279 - 1282) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1283 Page 1285 1 A Yes. 1 A W e reviewed that this week. 2 Q In fact, w ith M s Frost, you looked at the FDA 2 Q W e certainly did. 3 re-evaluation o f the Lew in results; right? 3 Now, you said: I think they must have spiked 4 A Yes. 4 it, right, to put chrysotile in it? 5 Q A nd w hen they did the FD A re-evaluation o f his 5 A You would - to show a decent reduction, you 6 results, they actually found some trem olite - they 6 w o uld n eed to spike it. 7 found trace trem olite in the m edicated pow der as well, 7 Q D o you know w hether they actually say in their 8 didn't they? 8 m ethods that they actually spiked it? 9 A They found trace trem olite, yes. Trace. 9 A That's a - looks like a 30 or 40 page report. 10 Q Yeah, I don't even think I have that on the 10 Q M mmhmm. 11 b oard, b u t I assum e Jo h n so n & Jo h n so n takes issue w ith 11 A But, from m emory, I think they put in 12 th a t finding, too? 12 2 p e r cent to see i f th ey could reduce it. 13 A T here's no record on the Lew in finding that it 13 Q Can you find that for me? 14 w as fibrous trem olite. 14 A It's a m em ory. I can't remember. 15 Q Okay. 15 Q Yeah. 16 A But m y understanding is they found tremolite, 16 (Pause). 17 a n d th at w a s n o t unusual to fin d traces o f non-asbestos 17 A Okay. O n that report I cannot find that they 18 trem olite. 18 spiked it. 19 Q N ow , you have been very clear about this 19 There was certainly a report that I have read 20 distinction from your perspective between non-asbestos 20 where they did spike with either 1 or 2 per cent to 21 trem olite or m assive form trem olite and asbestiform 21 show a reduction. 22 trem olite; right? 22 B ut in this particular report it doesn't 23 A Yes. 23 quote that they've deliberately added or spiked it w ith 24 Q Okay. 24 chrysotile. 25 A nd regardless o f w hat they were finding 25 Q O kay, and let's speak specifically, because we Page 1284 Page 1286 1 there in the Verm ont m ine and when they were using the 1 should do that - me, as a pseudo-scientist and you as 2 Italian, Johnson & Johnson expended funds to ask Dr 2 an actual scientist; right? 3 Pooley to find two different w ays to get rid o f 3 A Yes. 4 chrysotile and trem olite in V erm ont talc; correct? 4 Q A n d so w h en y o u say th at y o u 're aw are o f a 5 A As a hypothetical question, they did. 5 reference to som ebody spiking a sam ple, you can't even 6 So if there w ere --trem olite were present, 6 say it's w ith regard to w hat they w ere doing here. 7 they asked him to find out how to reduce it, yes. 7 There are discussions o f spiking sam ples in 8 Q Right, and they sent him samples o f the Verm ont 8 order to determine a lim it o f detection with certain 9 talc; correct? 9 tests; right? 10 A Correct, yes. 10 A Yes. 11 Q A nd they also asked him to find out a w ay how 11 Q A nd there are, for instance, we saw that 12 to destroy chrysotile trem olite in it; right? 12 yesterday in the C T FA round robin, they had spiked som e 13 A In talc, yes, and I've been to D r Pooley's lab. 13 sam ples to see i f peo p le could d etect it u sin g J4; 14 H e w ould --h e w o u ld have the trem olite as w ell. 14 right? 15 Q Okay. 15 A Correct, yes. 16 Now, Exhibit 69 is the reagent system that 16 Q O kay, but you don't have --there's nothing you 17 they were trying to set up, and in the docum ent it says 17 can po int to here. 18 th a t th ere w ere conclusions: 18 Y ou've had four days w ith the Johnson & 19 "Chrysotile fiber suppression w as indicated 19 Johnson law yers to find som ething that says those 20 w hile u s in g ... n-butanol-citric acid system ". 20 sam ples w ere spiked, and you haven't, have you? 21 A nd they actually have the results showing 21 A No. 22 the reduction o f chrysotile through use o f each 22 Q Okay. 23 reagent; correct? 23 A But, as you say, there are 170,000 documents, 24 A Correct, yes. 24 and I've not found the m atching one. 25 Q Okay. 25 B ut if I were running a study, I would be 58 (Pages 1283 - 1286) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1287 Page 1289 1 looking to spike it, and I w ould also be looking to 1 respectively. 2 ensure that if it did claim to be chrysotile, it really 2 D r Estrin stated that these products which 3 w as, because they describe it as probably chrysotile, 3 w ere analyzed by D r L ew in and the C T FA com m ittee were 4 probably chrysotile, chrysotile, chrysotile. 4 obtained by D r Lew in prior to 1973 and are no longer 5 So it kind o f implies that it wasn't 5 representative o f com m ercially available cosmetic talc 6 confirmed. 6 products". 7 B ut that's m y opinion. 7 M eaning that w e're still talking about the 8 Q W ell, two say chrysotile and two say probably 8 original Lewin samples; correct? 9 chrysotile, w hich would mean, sir, that two were 9 COURT REPORTER: Sorry, could I just have a 10 confirmed as chrysotile and two were probably 10 m inute? 11 chrysotile; right? 11 M R PANATIER: Yes. 12 A That's w hat it states. 12 (O ff the record at 4:29 pm) 13 Q A nd you know w ho did that test? 13 (O n the record at 4:31 pm ) 14 A W as it McCrone? 14 B Y M R PA N A TIER: 15 Q It's M cCrone. 15 Q So the only point there is, first o f all, 16 A Yes. 16 L ew in, all he d id w as X R D ; right? 17 Q Good guess. 17 A Correct. 18 Okay. Y ou can set that aside, sir. 18 Q O kay, and they're saying for X R D the CTFA 19 The next docum ent is 256. 19 agreed w ith L ew in's read on those early sam ples on 14 20 (Exhibit 256 marked for identification) 20 o f 15 o f them ; right? 21 This is regarding M r Lewin. Y ou spent some 21 A Yes. 22 tim e talking about M r Lewin. 22 Q Okay. You can set that aside, sir. 23 A nd they're talking here about him - I'm 23 Okay. So there w as an exhibit w hich was the 2 4 going to h an d it to y ou again, I did n 't m ake copies 24 '73 report fo r - 1 th in k it w as E xhibit 239, the 25 because these were sort o f unanticipated. 25 second Lew in report, the final report. Page 1288 Page 1290 1 B ut it says: 1 B ut you're saying the cover page w asn't on 2 "D r E strin requested this m eeting ..." 2 it? 3 Now, Estrin is CTFA; right? 3 M S KAGAN: Correct. 4 A Yes. 4 BY M R PANATIER: 5 Q "... for the purpose o f discussing the results 5 Q So apparently it didn't have a cover page. So 6 obtained from the analysis o f 15 coded sam ples o f 6 w e'll m ake that 257. 7 cosmetic talcs that had been sent to the CTFA by the 7 (Exhibit 257 m arked for identification) 8 Division o f Cosmetics Technology on N ovem ber 4,1975". 8 Okay. 9 So that's from the FD A ; right? 9 All I w ant to do here, because a lot o f time 10 A Yes. 10 w as spent on D r L ew in and his results. 11 Q Okay. 11 So A lfred W eissler, w ho's the Acting Director 12 A nd it just says here: 12 for the F D A in 1973, in this letter he says under 13 "The results o f the CTFA analyses by x-ray 13 nu m b er 2: 14 d iffra c to m e try ..." 14 "I chose D r Lew in for this w ork because he is 15 A nd that's X RD ? 15 a n internationally-recognized ex pert on m ineralogical 16 A Yes. 16 chem istry and because he is a m em ber o f the academic 17 Q "... w ere, w ith the exception o f one sam ple 17 com m unity and therefore likely to be im partial in a 18 it 18 co nfrontation b etw een industry and g o v e rn m e n t... 19 So 14 o f 15: 19 [Therefore], his com petence had previously been 20 "... in general agreem ent w ith those obtained 20 recognized by industry (by virtue o f their ow n use o f 21 b y D r SZ Lew in. H ow ever, the results o f the optical 21 him as a consultant) w hich appeared to confer a 22 m icroscopic exam inations o f these sam ples by CTFA and 22 desirable im m unity against possible industry attacks on 23 D C ST could not be com pared due to the usage o f 23 the validity o f the results". 24 differing definitions as to w hat constitutes a fiber; 24 T hat prediction turned out to be wrong. His 25 i.e. length to diam eter ratios o f 5 to 1 and 3 to 1 25 results are pretty well attacked, w eren't they, sir? 59 (Pages 1287 - 1290) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1291 Page 1293 1 A They were, and with good reason. 1 chrysotile", sir? 2 Q W ell, as w e saw from the previous memorandum, 2 A I don't. It's not a norm al scientific term. 3 the results that were looked at betw een the CTFA and 3 Q This is Exhibit 258. 4 L ew in w ere in ag reem en t 14 o f 15 tim es; correct? 4 (Exhibit 258 m arked for identification) 5 A On second review, although w e read this 5 W hat is the date o f that memo? 6 sentence an hour ago: however, D r Lew in points out on 6 A It's A u g u s t... 7 page 2 paragraph 1 o f his table that chrysotile he has 7 Q H ere, let m e hand it to Sharia first. 8 identified in commercial products shows several 8 T here you go, sir. A ugust 10 - is that '80 9 significant differences from classical chrysotile in a 9 o r '83? 10 location o f x-ray diffraction, et cetera. 10 A Eighty-three. August 10,1983. 11 So even D r Lew in is saying that he's having 11 Q All right, and what is that docum ent talking 12 d ifficu lty id entifying chrysotile. 12 about? 13 Q H e's saying it doesn't look like com m ercial 13 A It's called Q uality Assurance Testing o f 14 chrysotile; right? 14 W indsor G rade 66 T alc and B aby Pow der, Form ula 499. 15 A It doesn't look like chrysotile, yeah. 15 Q Right. 16 Q No. 16 So this is in the '80s, and then I 17 A Classical chrysotile, sorry. 17 h ig h lig h ted a ph rase there, b u t w h at does the w hole 18 Q Right. 18 sentence o f th at ph rase say? 19 A nd com m ercial chrysotile, som ething th at is 19 A "Due to the excellent analytical 20 intentionally added to a product such as an asbestos 20 Sorry, I'll start again: 21 product, is going to look a lot different than 21 "Due to the excellent analytical quality 22 naturally occurring chrysotile; correct? 22 history w ith talc w e have accepted W indsor's 23 A Actually used the w ord "classical chrysotile". 23 C[ertificate] o f A[nalysis] on m ost o f the 24 Q O kay. That's fine. Classic chrysotile; right? 24 specification param eters, with only an infrequent audit 25 A He said the sam ples, the chrysotile he 25 conducted at Royston". Page 1292 Page 1294 1 identified doesn't look like chrysotile, basically. 1 Q Okay. 2 Q A nd w hat I'm asking you is: you don't expect 2 I f y o u turn the page, so this w ould be the 3 chrysotile as it crops up as a naturally occurring 3 audit program for w hen they actually get the talc to 4 mineral as a contam inant o f som ething like talc to look 4 th e p lace w h ere it's b o ttled ; right? 5 like it looks w hen it com es out o f a chrysotile mine; 5 A N o t necessarily, no. 6 correct? 6 Q W ell, it said -- on the front it said, "w hen w e 7 A I w ould expect so. 7 g et it to R oyston"? 8 W e've seen those photom icrographs earlier 8 A Okay. 9 this afternoon o f w hat chrysotile looks like under a 9 Q Is th at w h ere th ey b o ttle it? 10 m icroscope, and it should still look the sam e w hether 10 A I t 's b o t tl e d i n R o y s to n . 11 it's in a sam ple o f p o w d er o r a sam ple o f flour, o r 11 Y o u c a n d o a n au d it o f th e talc after it's 12 w h atev er it m a y be con tam in ated by. 12 b o ttled o r b efo re w h en it's receiv ed in b u lk shipm ent 13 Q So- 13 o n th e - o n th e ra il cars. 14 A Chrysotile is chrysotile. 14 Y ou can still do finished product audit in 15 Q So if w e have a giant pile o f chrysotile, like 15 th e p o ts th at are little h a lf p o u n d pots. 16 y o u w ere sh o w n in the p hoto b y M s F rost, that's w h at w e 16 Q Okay. 17 should see i f w e find it in talc? 17 A I m ean , th at's n o t c le ar from here. 18 A The photographs we were showed about 50 or 100 18 Q Okay. 19 fibers o f chrysotile. T h ey hav e a definition, th ey 19 W hat does that second page say at the top? 20 look like chrysotile, and they have an x-ray 20 A Specification R equirem ent. F irst item is 21 diffraction pattern and a scanning or transm ission 21 asbestos. 22 electron m icroscopic picture that enables a real 22 Q A nd w hat is the frequency o f the audit? 23 expert, and obviously that's im portant, to identify if 23 A T ested b y frequency. It says research and 24 it's chrysotile or not chrysotile. 24 audit. 25 Q D o you know w hat he m eant by "classic 25 Q Okay. 60 (Pages 1291 - 1294) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1295 Page 1297 1 So the only tim e that w ould be tested for 1 level o f assurance. 2 asbestos is by an audit that som eone decides to do so, 2 Q A nd as w e sit here today on D ay 4, you can't 3 or for research; correct? 3 ever having recalled that Johnson & Johnson ever 4 A W ell, it im plies both research and by audit. 4 rejected a lot o f asbestos for --a lot o f talc for 5 Q Right. 5 asbestos content; correct? 6 A Tested by frequency - sorry, tested by 6 A I've never seen that in any docum entation or 7 research. Frequency is audit. 7 literature. 8 Q All right. 8 Q Okay. 9 A That's clear. 9 A ll right, sir. T his is dated M arch 18, 10 Q All right. 10 1976. The subject is The M t. Sinai Sam ples are Old. 11 And how often w ould an audit occur? 11 (Exhibit 259 m arked for identification) 12 A A n au d it is som ething th at yo u 'd do o n the 12 Okay. 13 m ine. It's --th e intention, I believe, is quarterly 13 So take a peek at that, and if you'll go dow n 14 fo r the m in e audit. 14 to the one that is highlighted, can you read that out 15 A n audit on finished product, once it's been 15 loud for us? 16 bottled, that's after it's been audited o ff the rail 16 A W ell, this talks about Colgate. 17 car, that is n ot specified on here. 17 "Colgate has identified a sample o f Cashmere 18 Q W ell, the w ord they used to describe the audit 18 B ouquet as being pre-1971. C olgate [has] changed talc 19 is "infrequent"; right? 19 sources in 1970 a n d ... rep o rted the n ew talc does n ot 20 A Yes. 20 contain asbestos." 21 Q Can you hand that back to me, please? 21 Q Do you know what talc Cashmere Bouquet or 22 A Yes. 22 Colgate used before 1970? 23 Q The other item s outside o f asbestos, they are 23 A I do not. 24 per rail car or a daily composite; right? 24 Q It was Italian 1615. 25 A Yes. 25 T hat's the sam e stu ff you guys used; right? Page 1296 Page 1298 1 Q Now, the second Langer paper from 1976, or the 1 A Italian 00000. 2 second Langer research on consum er talcums from 1976, 2 Q W hich w e have agreed is the exact same thing as 3 you talked about that; do you recall? 3 1615 AG IT; correct? 4 A Yes. 4 A W ell, you're telling m e that. I've not seen 5 Q And you read some documents where they had 5 the specification for 1615, but I'll take your w ord for 6 found asbestos in different brands, including Cashm ere 6 it. 7 Bouquet; right? 7 Q W e saw three documents yesterday, and this 8 A That's w hat it read, yes. 8 perhaps - you've seen a lot o f docum ents, in fairness; 9 Q A nd you pointed out that they hadn't found it 9 okay. 10 in Johnson's B aby Pow der during that test; correct? 10 A Yes. Thank you. 11 A I believe so. 11 Q W e saw one that said 00000 is the exact same 12 Q Okay. 12 thing as 1615 A G IT , w hich then becom es the exact sam e 13 So m y question is: you have taken issue w ith 13 th in g as Supra. 14 D r Langer's abilities, m ethodology, you've already done 14 Do you recall that? 15 it w ith m e today. 15 A Yes, that's right, yeah. 16 So w hen he finds the asbestos in your product 16 Q Okay. A ll right. 17 a n d says th ere is asbestos there, I tak e it you're 17 So 00000 is 1615; correct? 18 say in g w e shouldn't tru st him , y o u disagree w ith him ; 18 A Yes. 19 b u t w h en h e d oesn't find it, w e sh o u ld agree w ith him ? 19 Q A nd if Cashm ere Bouquet was using 1615 during 20 A N o, I don't say that at all. 20 those years, w hich I w ill ask you to assume, then that 21 W e m ay be comparing two different sources o f 21 w as the pow der that w as found to be containing asbestos 22 talc. It could well be that the Johnson & Johnson 22 b y Langer at that tim e, if w hat I'm saying is correct? 23 product, having audited the m ine, having taken samples 23 A Yes. 24 o f the m ine, taken sam ples from the factory, taken 24 Q Okay. All right, sir. You can set that aside. 25 samples o f the finished product, you develop a high 25 This w ill be Exhibit 260. 61 (Pages 1295 - 1298) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1299 Page 1301 1 (Exhibit 260 marked for identification) 1 am ount o f asbestos in the cosmetic versus the 2 This is a memo from March 30,1976, telephone 2 industrial. 3 conversation with FD Pooley, and for context, and then 3 Is that correct? 4 I'll show it to you, it says: 4 A As fines, yes. 5 "Langer has spent two days in Pooley's 5 Q Okay. 6 Laboratory in Wales re-examining the OTC products 6 A Yes. 7 reported in the Washington Post. According to Pooley, 7 Q Now, did Johnson & Johnson ever ask M cCrone to 8 Langer agrees now that the level o f amphibole reported 8 re-evaluate those reports? 9 were too high. For example, Langer now feels that the 9 A No. 10 Cashmere Bouquet Body Powder has 4% amphibole (in line 10 Q Okay. 11 with McCrone and Pooley) and not 20% amphibole". 11 A But w e've described them as fibers is rather 12 Can you take a look at that? 12 high. W hat w e've not stated that's com ing out o f that 13 A Yes, and, in fact, the sentence goes on: 13 report, a t least it's n ot on the board, is w hether 14 "There ... [was] evidently still disagreement 14 those fibers w ere asbestos fibers o r talc fibers. 15 between Langer and Pooley as far as the products that 15 Q H ere. L et m e help orient you back to this, 16 Langer reports low levels of amphibole and Pooley finds 16 because I know it's been a long w eek, b u t this is w hat 17 none detectable levels". 17 they said. 18 Q Okay. All right. Sir, I want to get you done 18 Fibers o f asbestos and confirm ed asbestos. 19 today; okay? So you got to just answer the questions I 19 Y ou can't get m ore clear than that, can you? 20 ask, please. 20 A A nd that's in the industrial talc. 21 A I'll answer the question. 21 Q N o, it's not. 22 Q Okay. Thank you. 22 W e can break those out again. 23 A I agree with what you've highlighted. 23 I f you're going to decide to change -- 24 Q Okay. Thank you. 24 A N o, I'm ju st - - 1 m ean, it w as three days ago, 25 And so whatever was in Cashmere Bouquet at 25 so w e're looking at that. Page 1300 Page 1302 1 that time, in that early production pre-71, Langer, 1 Q Okay. Sir, do we --can you agree that in 2 Pooley and M cC rone all agree it's 4 per cent am phibole; 2 these tw o reports it said that there w as confirm ed 3 correct? 3 asbestos both in the fines and in the sediment? 4 A Yes. Amphibole. Yes. 4 Can w e agree to that, or do I have to get the 5 Q All right. 5 paper out? 6 In Exhibit 220 and 221, you said that you 6 A No, w e can agree to that. 7 believed that those were --those designations there, 7 Q Okay. 8 the W M I, w ere industrial talcs? 8 A nd can w e agree that in the next report it 9 A That was m y --that w as m y feeling, yes. Yes, 9 said there were fibers o f asbestos in the fines and in 10 G rade 76, yes. 10 the sedim ent? C an w e agree to that? 11 Q Okay, because it wasn't G rade 66; right? 11 A W e can agree to w hat was w ritten in that 12 A Yes. 12 report, yes. 13 Q Okay. 13 Q All right. 14 Now, w e actually have a comparison M cCrone 14 So w hat we know when we had a direct 15 d id b etw een som e industrial talcs an d som e cosm etic 15 co m parison o f cosm etic talc a n d industrial talc b y 16 talcs; correct? 16 M cC rone, w as that there w as m ore asbestos in the 17 A Yes. 17 cosm etic talc th an there w as in the industrial; 18 Q Right. H ere I'll go back up to the board. 18 correct? 19 So that was these two m em os in middle and 19 A That is w hat's reported. 20 late 1975. 20 Q Okay. W e can set that aside. 21 Any time they looked at the fines, w hich we 21 T his dead air is m e skipping stuff, so that's 22 talked about the fines versus the sediment, w hen we 22 good news. 23 looked at the fines, there were m ore than two tim es the 23 A ll right. Y ou were asked by M s Frost about 24 fines for asbestos, either confirm ed asbestos or fibers 24 som ething called GRAS, w hich is Generally Regarded As 25 o f asbestos -- there were m ore than two tim es the 25 Safe that is a designation the FDA uses; right? 62 (Pages 1299 - 1302) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 A Correct. Page 1303 2 Q T hey have never designated talc for use in 3 cosmetics as GRAS, have they? 4 A They have designated talc for use in 5 pharm aceutical applications and food applications as Page 1305 1 Q A nd at that tim e, the specification doesn't 2 specify any type o f regular testing for asbestos, 3 obviously, since it doesn't even m ention asbestos? 4 A No. It specifies regular testing for absence 5 o f acicular needles. 6 GRAS. 6 Q In fact, the testing --well, you tell m e what 7 Q Right. They have never done so in cosmetics; 7 type o f testing does it say they should do regularly 8 correct? 8 for testing for acicular needles? 9 A No. 9 A Ifs a m icroscopic test. Y ou look under the 10 Q In fact, in their assessment o f w hether or not 10 m icroscope for a sam ple o f the product and look for the 11 to say th at talc is generally reco g n ized a n d safe an d 11 absence o f acicular needles. 12 som ething y o u m ig h t ingest, th ey d id n o t conduct an 12 Q W ell, here is w hat it says: 13 in halation assessm ent, d id they? 13 "Acicular needle-like crystals. The latter 14 A T hey did not. 14 tw o are undesirable in the talc. T he presence o f large 15 Q Okay. 15 acicular crystals o f heavy cross section in any am ount 16 W hen you said that early on Johnson & Johnson 16 are sufficient grounds for rejection o f the talc. The 17 h a d a general specification, w hich w e'v e seen, th at 17 presence o f sm all am ounts o f pointed crystals w hich are 18 says y o u d o n 't w an t an y particu late really, b u t they 18 still platelets is n ot too serious, and distinction 19 said you don't w ant any needle-like particulate in it; 19 should be m ade betw een the tw o conditions". 20 right? 20 So that's w hat it says; right? 21 A Correct, yes. 21 A Yes. 22 Q Because w hen you're m aking a body pow der, you 22 Q I'm ju st looking here, I m ean, how often were 23 don't w ant anything like that you can feel; right? 23 they supposed to test it, do you know? 24 A Correct. 24 A I think, from m em ory, it does specify how 25 Q But you agree, sir, that fibers o f asbestos, 25 m any --they used fifty pound sacks, and I'm speaking Page 1304 Page 1306 1 okay, if they w ere hypothetically present, as you've - 1 from m em ory, but I'm sure it does state how m any 50 2 we will put that caveat on it so w e can talk about 2 pound sacks were evaluated and when, but it was part o f 3 it - if those fibers are present and they're there at 3 the process, yes. 4 5 ,1 0 , 20 m icrons long, no one is going to feel that, 4 Q I'm ju st looking at their exam ples o f the 5 are they? 5 photomicrographs. 6 A I don't know . It's an interesting question 6 A M mmhmm. 7 because the hum an skin can basically pick up the 7 Q A nd they're all at 330 times. 8 trigger for one nerve, and a nerve ending in the hum an 8 A Yes. 9 skin is incredibly fine. 9 Q Okay. 10 So it's a physiological question. Y ou'd need 10 Is that w hat they were supposed to be doing 11 to ask a physiologist. 11 w h en th ey d id a n y so rt o f th e periodic testing? 12 Q Okay. So you don't know the answer? 12 A W ell, that w ould be a m inimum. 13 A I do not know the answer. 13 I m ean, I've used regular microscopes m any, 14 Q Okay. 14 m any, m any years and 3 5 0 ,1 ,0 0 0 , those are typical 15 A A physiologist m ay well know the answer. 15 levels at w hich y o u look under a m icroscope. 16 Q All right. 16 Q I'm not asking w hat you look at, sir. 17 The 1946 specification, w hich was I think 17 A W ell, 350 w ould be w hat is on that 18 2 2 4 --E x h ib it 224, it d oesn't hav e an y --it doesn't 18 specification. 19 m en tio n asbestos a t all; correct? 19 Q I am looking --I am asking a question about 20 A No. 20 w hat they did, not what you m ight have done. 21 Q A nd it doesn't m ention asbestiform ; correct? 21 A Okay. 22 A No? 22 Q So the exam ple they have here is 330 times. 23 It mentions acicular. 23 A Yes. 24 Q Right, w hich is needle? 24 Q There w as no specification to look any closer 25 A A general description for those structures. 25 than that; correct? 63 (Pages 1303 - 1306) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1307 Page 1309 1 A W ell, the specification gives the exam ples, as 1 the sensitivity o f the tool is key; correct? 2 published in a journal, where they use 350 tim es as 2 A It is, yes. 3 being the ideal that w ould pick up needle-like 3 Q A nd if w e had said, look, let's look at the ~ 4 crystals. 4 let's look at the last 35 years, going back to 1975 for 5 Q H ere's all I found, okay. The exam ples they 5 Johnson & Johnson talcs, generally, we have a bi-weekly 6 gave are at 330 times. 6 J4 test and a quarterly TEM test, generally; is that 7 N ow , w e can agree if there's asbestos 7 right? 8 present, you could look at something at 330 tim es under 8 A Yes. 9 a m icroscope and you could very w ell m iss it; correct? 9 Q Okay. 10 A The view that I've spoken to m icroscopists is 10 T here are som e caveats. T here are -- 11 th a t i f y o u lo o k a t enough fields o f v iew , enough 11 so m etim es it m ight change u p a little bit. 12 vision, y o u sp en d eno u g h tim e looking a t the m icroscope 12 A Yeah. 13 slide, yo u sh o u ld p ick it up. 13 Q B ut that's basically w hat w e have; right? 14 Q W hat's the m inim um w idth o f a chrysotile fiber 14 A Yes. 15 th a t y o u can see w ith optical m icroscopy? 15 Q Okay. 16 A It's in --it's in fractions o f a --fractions 16 A nd the TEM m ethod has always been the 7024 17 o f a m illim eter. 17 T E M ; correct? 18 I can't answ er that question. 18 A Yes. 19 Q So w hat it says here is under 6.4 it says 19 Q A nd the other m ethod has always been J4-1? 20 M icroscopic Structure: 20 A Yes. 21 "Take a sm all quantity o f talc on the tip o f 21 Q Now, another --another thing you brought up 22 a spatula and place on a glass m icroscope slide. 22 was this thing was USP, US Pharmacopeia; right? 23 Distribute in a very thin layer by rubbing and sm earing 23 A Yes, w e discussed that. 24 it gently using the flat side o f another slide. Insert 24 Q A nd you said that USP was another way that your 25 slide under microscope, and exam ine talc crystals at a 25 talc got tested? I w asn't sure? Page 1308 Page 1310 1 m agnification o f 150..." 1 A No. The U nited States Pharm acopeia offers a 2 So that's the spec? 2 test system for the analysis o f talc for asbestos. 3 A That's the spec. 3 Q A ll right. So w hat does that have to do with 4 Q Right? 4 Johnson & Johnson? 5 A Yes. 5 A W ell, the tw o are virtually identical, in the 6 Q So how m uch asbestos can you see at 150 times? 6 sense that the USP has a stage one using x-ray 7 A Y ou w ould see large fibers o f asbestos. 7 diffraction, and if there's cause, you can m ove to a 8 Q Y ou w ouldn't see the sm all ones, w ould you? 8 stage two, w hich is transm ission electron microscopy. 9 A N ot by that method, no. 9 Q Okay. 10 Q Okay. 10 A A nd that's --that m eets the U SP requirem ents. 11 The next tim e there is any specification or 11 Q So U SP requires transmission electron 12 any tim e th a t is m o d ified is w h en th ey start to develop 12 m icroscopy? 13 J4; correct? 13 A A s a second stage. 14 A Y es, that specific, although, as w e've 14 Q I th in k I have it. 15 discussed, retrospective review s o f sam ples from the 15 I think it's in your pile. I think I w asn't 16 late 1940s b y the b e st m ethods d id n o t indicate any 16 planning to use it. 17 asbestos. 17 H ere it is. Okay. Great. 18 Q W ell, d id P ooley list w hat m ethods w hen h e used 18 So this is Exhibit 229, w hich you've spoken 19 w hen he said he w ent back to '49? 19 about, and on the second page is the procedure for 20 A Yes, he used exactly the same m ethods as he 20 absence o f asbestos, w hich you say is a two-step 21 used in the m ain review o f the m ines. 21 process o f X R D and TEM ? 22 Q W hat were those? 22 A Yes. 23 A From memory, differential - sorry, x-ray 23 Q Take a look at that. 24 diffraction and electron microscopy. 24 A Yes. 25 Q W hen you're looking for som ething very small, 25 Q A ll right. 64 (Pages 1307- 1310) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1311 Page 1313 1 Now, the first step is a choice between 1 A N o, I've never seen the name. 2 infrared absorption and XRD; right? 2 Q Did you know that Johnson & Johnson put him up 3 A Correct, yes. 3 or nom inated him for this panel? 4 Q If it's non-detect, then you can pass it; 4 A No. 5 right? 5 Q Okay. All right. 6 A U nder U SP system , yes. 6 The abstract says: 7 Q And CTFA is similar because under CTFA if you 7 "In response to a req u est from the U S ... 8 don't see it w ith XRD , you get to pass it and say no 8 [FDA] through the FD A M onograph M odernization Task 9 asbestos; right? 9 Group, the U SP Talc m onograph is being m odernized to 10 A U nder that system, yes. 10 ensure th at the tests for asbestos have adequate 11 Q Okay. 11 specificity". 12 A U nder the CTFA protocol, yes. 12 D id I read that right? 13 Q Right. 13 A Y ou did. 14 A nd sam e w ith this one. If you pass step one 14 Q Okay. 15 b y X R D o r infrared absorption, y o u get to say pass, no 15 A t the end o f there it says: 16 asbestos; right? 16 "T he U S P T alc ... [E xperts'] recom m endation 17 A Yes. 17 fo r revision o f the test fo r A b sence o f A sbestos w ill 18 Q It doesn't m ean there's no asbestos, though; 18 include om ission o f the infrared spectroscopy test and 19 right? 19 in clu sio n o f a rev ised x -ray d iffraction procedure, in 20 A N o. That's w hy it's a good idea to m ove onto 20 com bination with one or m ore m icroscopic evaluations 21 step three. 21 (p o larized -lig h t m ic ro s c o p y ,... [TEM ] o r ... [SEM ])". 22 Q Right. 22 R ig h t? 23 A W hich is optical m icroscopy. 23 A Yes. 24 Q Right, because the problem with infrared 24 Q A ll right. 25 absorption is, w ell, infrared absoiption and X R D , is 25 Go ahead and go to the next page. Page 1312 Page 1314 1 you've got a relatively high detection limit, m eaning 1 It says: 2 not as sensitive as something like optical or TEM ; 2 "T he infrared spectroscopy (IR ) an d ... [XRD ] 3 right? 3 m ethods, as currently written, can lead to 4 A No, you m ight well pick up other m aterials like 4 false-negative results, w hich could allow talc samples 5 chlorite that they're no concern, but they confuse the 5 w ith asbestos contam ination to pass the Absence o f 6 issue. 6 A sbestos test in the USP Talc Monograph". 7 Q Right, but you can miss asbestos; correct? 7 A false negative means som ething is there, 8 A You m ight do, yes. 8 b u t y o u say it isn't; right? 9 Q All right. 9 A That's w hat it states, yes. 10 D oes U SP require TEM , as you said, sir? 10 Q Likewise, it says --dow n below that it says: 11 A No. Optical m icroscopy. 11 "Even after applying the current USP 12 Q All right. Okay. You can set that aside. 12 m icroscopy m ethod, the an aly st can n o t ru le o u t the 13 So this w ill be Exhibit 261. 13 p resence o f hazardous fibers in a sam ple o f talc. In 14 (Exhibit 261 m arked for identification) 14 addition, the lack o f identification procedures in the 15 Sir, can you see that this is a --w hat's 15 op tical m icroscopy section o f the m eth o d co uld lead to 16 called a Stim uli to the R evision Process, the 16 false-positive results". 17 M o d ernization o f A sbestos T estin g in U S P T alc? 17 Right. 18 A Yes. 18 A Correct. 19 Q Do you see that there's tw o individuals there, 19 Q "This underscores the need to modernize the 20 Julie Pier; do you know who she is? 20 current m onograph for tw o reasons: 1) both the IR and 21 A N o, I've never heard the name. 21 X R D m ethods have relativ ely high detection lim its for 22 Q She works for a company called Imerys. You 22 a s b e s to s ..." 23 know w ho that is; right? 23 A nd Johnson & Johnson agrees with that; 24 A Yes. 24 right? 25 Q A nd D rew V an O rden; do y ou know w ho that is? 25 A Correct. 65 (Pages 1311-1314) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1315 1 Q "... a n d ... there is no k n o w n 'safe' level o f 1 Q Okay. Page 1317 2 asbestos exposure". 2 L et's turn, please, to page 16 o f 21 at the 3 A nd you agree w ith that; right? 3 top. The m iddle paragraph: 4 A That's w hat it states. 4 "There are currently no established safe 5 Q D o you agree w ith it? 5 levels o f asbestos exposure. This underscores the 6 A I think that's based on current knowledge. 6 efforts o f the Talc EP to identify strategies and 7 Q Okay. 7 m ethods for reducing the potential for asbestos 8 Now, go ahead and turn to page 9 o f 21, okay, 8 contam ination o f talc to the lowest feasible levels. 9 and you can see that they have advantages and 9 M ore effective analytical approaches are needed to 10 disadvantages o f each m ethod; right? 10 achieve m uch low er levels o f detection than those 11 A They do. They review each o f the test 11 trad itionally u sed to evaluate asbestos contam ination 12 p ro cesses a n d describe the v alue o r w here they've g ot 12 o f bulk m aterials. T he existing m ethods are not 13 w eaknesses a n d failings. 13 necessarily adequate for assessing the potential health 14 Q Right. So under IR it says: 14 risks o f these m aterials. Research b y the U S EPA and 15 "Cannot distinguish asbestos from 15 o thers h as show n th at disturbance o f m atrices (e.g., 16 n o n -asbestos form s o f the sam e m in e r a l... [and] 16 soil, verm iculite insulation) containing asbestos 17 detection lim it is unknow n". 17 concentrations identified b y the low er detection lim its 18 R ig h t? 18 o f P L M -- w ell below 1% asbestos by w eight, the lim it 19 A Yes. 19 historically u sed by the U S EPA to define an A sbestos 20 Q ForX RD: 20 Containing M aterial --can generate potentially 21 "Limit o f detection m ay be too high for 21 hazardous exposures (30-32). This issues, while not 22 public health and regulatory purposes". 22 currently evaluated, m ay be particularly relevant for 23 R ig h t? 23 the talc used in powders and cosmetics". 24 A Yes. 24 Okay. Have you read this before, sir? 25 Q And then: 25 A I've not, no. Page 1316 Page 1318 1 "M ay give false-negative result if used as a 1 Q Okay. 2 screening method". 2 A No. 3 W hich they m ention earlier; true? 3 Q N ext page: 4 A Yes. 4 "Also, exposures to certain nonregulated 5 Q Okay. 5 m ineral such as fibrous forms o f winchite, richterite, 6 U nder Optical Microscopy: 6 and antigorite are o f concern. Recent studies have 7 "Particles o f m illed material m ay be 7 found that such exposures are associated with increased 8 disaggregated and inconsistent w ith typical asbestos 8 risks o f mesotheliom a and other asbestos-related 9 m orphology". 9 diseases ... T he U S P T alc E x p ert P anel agrees th at 10 Now, that means, right, sir, that you m ight 10 exposure risks can and should be m itigated b y revising 11 see som ething th at do esn 't lo o k like asbestos, b u t it's 11 U S P m ethods, w h ich w ill th en allow for m u ch low er 12 b e en disaggregated; right? So y o u m ay n o t recognize it 12 detectio n lim its for asbestos, and i f w arranted, other 13 a s asbestos; true? 13 m inerals". 14 A It's possible. It depends on the skill o f the 14 N ow , you haven't seen this before, but those 15 operator. 15 general com m ents, do y o u agree w ith those? 16 Q Okay. 16 A They're a general sum m ary o f current opinion. 17 "Particles o f m illed m aterial m ay be below 17 Q All right, sir. Y ou can set that aside. 18 th e reso lu tio n lim it." 18 Y ou discussed the FDA 2009 analysis o f 19 M eaning the detection limit; right? 19 various talcs. D o y ou recall that? 20 A Correct. 20 A W e did discuss that, yes. 21 Q A nd then, lastly: 21 Q Now , a few questions about that. 22 "Limit o f detection m ay be too high for 22 First, what do you know about the lab that 23 public health and regulatory purposes". 23 did the w ork on behalf o f the FDA? 24 R ig h t? 24 A The FDA report said - - 1 believe it was AM A, a 25 A That's w hat it states. 25 laboratory. 66 (Pages 1315-1318) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1319 Page 1321 1 Q Okay. 1 looked at ten grid openings per sample, that w ould be 2 Do you know whether or not the actual 2 less sensitive than looking at a hundred? 3 m icroscopist that did that w ork is now a paid 3 A Yes. In general, the m ore grid openings you 4 consultant for cosmetic talc m anufacturers? 4 look at, the greater the sensitivity. 5 A I don't know the answ er to that question, no. 5 Q Okay. 6 Q All rig h t 6 Exhibit 235 was the m aterial analysis report 7 Do you know, generally speaking --I think we 7 from C yprus, I think in the early '90s -- '92; is that 8 talked about it on D ay 1 --that, in order to increase 8 right? 9 your sensitivity w hen doing TEM , you take a fixed 9 A Yes. Y es, I've seen this. 10 am o u n t o f m aterial, y o u d isperse it a n d th en y o u p u t it 10 Q Okay, and it ju st says that it passes the 11 o n T E M g rids? 11 asbestos test; right? 12 A Yes. 12 A Yes. 13 Q Right? 13 Q Now , that w ould be one that is done by the 14 A Yes. 14 supplier; correct? 15 Q A nd each o f those grids has tiny grid openings 15 A Y es, it's the rail car evaluation. 16 th at you scan; right? 16 Q A nd they're required to do J4-1 on that; right? 17 A Yes. 17 A Yes. 18 Q And, as with anything, the m ore o f those grid 18 Q Okay. 19 o pen in g s y o u scan, the g reater y o u r sensitivity; 19 B ecause that's not a quarterly test. That's 20 correct? 20 ju st your regular test; right? 21 A Correct. 21 A Yes. 22 Q Right. 22 Q A ll right. 23 I think we saw that Blount said she did 23 A n d so y o u said a "rail car te s t". 24 several hundred grid openings w hen she did her paper; 24 N ow , I asked you earlier, generally, you had 25 correct? 25 a test --composite test every two weeks and then a Page 1320 Page 1322 1 A Sure, yeah. 1 quarterly TEM . Y ou m entioned a rail car test. 2 Q T hat w ould give y o u a higher sensitivity than 2 Are you now saying that all the rail cars 3 ju st doing a few grid openings; right? 3 were also tested by J4? 4 A Yes. 4 A N o, I ju st used the w ord "rail car test" as 5 Q Okay. 5 being the finished product that's shipped in bulk from 6 O r, because people som etim es say low er 6 the holding silos. 7 sensitivity is better, right, higher w ould be less 7 Q A ll right. So w e w ould expect those to have 8 sensitivity; right? 8 been subject to the bi-w eekly test? 9 A Yes. 9 A That's, yes, correct. 10 Q Okay. 10 Q Okay. So w hen it checks that it passes the 11 So the m ore grid openings y ou look at, the 11 analysis, th at is the bi-w eekly test pe r J4; correct? 12 greater th e sensitivity? 12 A Yes. 13 A Yes. 13 Q A ll right, sir. You can set that aside. 14 Q A ll right. 14 Now, J4-1 is the test that both the Johnson & 15 D o y o u k n o w h o w m a n y g r i d o p e n in g s t h a t th< : 15 Johnson a n d th e F D A k n o w g ot an F m inus o n its round 16 contractor looked at for the F D A test in 2009? 16 robin in 1977; correct? 17 A I d o n 't reco llect read in g th at in th at report. 17 A If used alone, yes. 18 Q Okay. 18 Q Okay. 19 In fairn ess, it's n o t in th a t rep o rt. S o I'm 19 A Yes, w ithout TEM , yes. 20 ju s t asking if y o u know from anything else? 20 Q That's right. Okay. 21 A G o o d . N o , I'm g la d m y m e m o ry isn 't g o in g . 21 Exhibit 240 was a statement that M s Frost 22 Q No. 22 show ed you regarding --by Eierm ann regarding Seymour 23 A N o , I d o n 't reco llect read in g that. 23 Lew in; correct? 24 Q Okay. 24 A Yes. 25 I f - can w e generally agree that, if he only 25 Q A nd Eierm ann, o f course, w e've established w as 67 (Pages 1319 - 1322) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1323 Page 1325 1 a form er Johnson & Johnson employee; correct? 1 H ere you go, sir. 2 A Y eah, you stated that. I w asn't aw are o f it. 2 A Thank you. 3 Q W ell, I pointed it out to you on a Johnson & 3 Q Sure. 4 Johnson m em o; right? 4 Okay. So from tim e to tim e, citizens, in 5 A You did, yes. 5 groups or alone, they write to the FDA and they ask 6 Q Okay. A ll right, sir. Y ou can set that aside. 6 them to do things, such as m aybe take something o ff the 7 Exhibit 244 was a m eeting betw een FDA and 7 m arket or put a warning on a product; right? 8 Rohl and Langer that you were show n by M s Frost. 8 A They do. 9 (Briefly o ff the record) 9 Q Okay. 10 A nd D r Langer demonstrates his -- one o f his 10 So if you'll look at that page, at the bottom 11 m ethodologies here, a n d I hig h lig h ted a section. 11 it's g o t a P D N 1, b u t it's the th ird page overall. 12 Can you go ahead and read that out loud for 12 A Yes. 13 us? 13 Q A ll right. 14 A Okay. This is -- let's ju st check the date on 14 So the FD A responds to this individual, 15 w h ich rep o rt it is. It is the rep o rt o f a m eeting 15 P h ilip D ouillet; right? 16 betw een D r L anger and D r R ohl and tw o people from the 16 A They do. 17 F D A , M arch 2 2 ,1 9 7 6 . 17 Q A nd they say: 18 W hat you have underlined under the heading o f 18 "FDA recognizes that asbestos inhalation over 19 T rem olite, it states that: 20 "Dr Langer demonstrated by preparing a slide 19 extended periods is hazardous to hum ans. T he agency 20 II 21 o f C ashm ere B ouquet talc. U nder the m icroscope 21 L et me ask you this: is 40 years an extended 22 trem olite was observed as short particles with 90 22 period? 23 degree cleavage. A nthophyllite had the sam e cleavage 23 A Yes. 24 but was definitely fibrous, having aspect ratios 24 Q Okay. 25 ty p ically 30 o r 40 to 1". 25 "The agency is also aware that some cosmetic Page 1324 Page 1326 1 Q All right. 1 talc produced in the 1960s and early 1970s did contain 2 So Langer is showing the FDA - by w ay o f 2 asbestiform minerals. However, your petition has not 3 exam ple, he's using Cashm ere Bouquet, but he's found 3 persuaded us that the cosm etic talc that is presently 4 trem olite in it and fibrous anthophyllite; correct? 4 being produced contains significant amounts o f 5 A H e's claim ing to have found, yes, trem olite and 5 asbestiform minerals". 6 am phibole. Yes, he's claim ing that. 6 R ig h t? 7 Q Right, and the w ord "claiming" is yours; right? 7 A That's w hat it states. 8 A It is, yes. 8 Q Now, the FD A knows that when the CTFA did their 9 Q Okay. A ll right. 9 round robin in 1977, they were using 1976 production 10 A Certainly, as w e know at this time, there was 10 pow ders; correct? 11 deb ate as to w h a t peo p le w ere identifying, a n d w e've 11 A Yes. 12 seen th at before. 12 Q A nd that at least three o f those w ere positive 13 Q W ell, that doesn't say there's a debate or he's 13 u n d e r J4; correct? 14 claim ing. It says this is w hat he found; right? 14 A Yes. 15 A T hat's w h a t he's --yes, th at's w h a t he's 15 Q Okay. 16 reporting. 16 Go to the next page, please. In the second 17 Q Okay, sir. 17 paragraph about halfw ay in: 18 One o f the other things you were asked to 18 "By 1976 asbestos analytical m ethodology was 19 look at w as a Citizen's Petition from 1986. 19 sufficiently developed th at the Cosm etic T oiletry and 20 I think there should be a - - 1 have the copy 20 Fragrance A ssociation (CTFA) could issue a 21 that w as handed to me. 21 specification (copy enclosed) for cosm etic talc. This 22 D o you have your copy over there? It's 22 specification required that such talc be free o f 23 Exhibit 245. 23 fibrous am phibole (e.g., asbestos in the form o f 24 Let m e come behind you. 24 asbestiform trem olite) using a CTFA m ethod o f analysis 25 (Briefly o ff the record) 25 that is capable o f detecting 0.5 per cent o f amphibole 68 (Pages 1323 - 1326) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1327 Page 1329 1 asbestos. This specification contributed to the 1 A Yes. 2 continuing im provem ent o f cosm etic talc quality". 2 Q Or, "Being redone"? 3 So he's citing J4; correct? 3 A Being redone, yes. 4 A Correct. 4 Q A nd then we have the new one where all the 5 Q All right, sir. 5 percentages are removed? 6 A nd that was -- that was one o f the things 6 A Correct. 7 that the FD A wrote to this m an and then, o f course, if 7 Q Right. Okay. 8 you turn a few pages, you can see CTFA J4 -- sorry, you 8 L et me show you som ething. This was in the 9 can see their spec for cosm etic talc; right? 9 documents you guys gave us. 10 A Yes. 10 This would be 262. 11 Q And then for fibrous amphibole, if you go 11 (Exhibit 262 m arked for identification) 12 acro ss, th ey sp ecify C T F A J4-1; right? 12 Now , you can see this is a November 26,1990, 13 A That's w hat is stated, yes. 13 letter from M cC rone to C yprus; right? 14 Q Right, sir. Y ou can set that aside. 14 A Yes. 15 So even though there were tw o guys from the 15 Q A nd it discusses three samples that were sent 16 FD A at that m eeting w here J4 failed m iserably, the FD A 16 to M cC rone for asbestos analysis; right? 17 is n o w tellin g som eone in 1986 th at they're actually 17 A Yes. 18 citin g J4 as o ne o f the reasons for im p ro v ed talc; is 18 Q A nd it says: 19 th at true? 19 "Examination found no quantifiable amounts o f 20 A It's true to say th at J4 has contributed to 20 asbestiform minerals". 21 im proved talc, yes. 21 R ig h t? 22 Q A nd w e know that later in 1977 M r Schelz from 22 A Yes. 23 Johnson & Johnson actually recom m ended increasing the 23 Q A nd there's three samples: CW M 90-28; 90-29; and 24 am ount o f allow ed fibrous trem olite and anthophyllite; 24 90-30. 25 correct? 25 So the ultim ate report that Cyprus gets back Page 1328 Page 1330 1 A I believe we m ay have seen that as a com m ent in 1 is no asbestos; right? 2 a note, yes. 2 A That's the cover page, yes. 3 Q A llow ing anthophyllite up to 2 to 4 per cent; 3 Q Okay. 4 rem ember that? 4 Then you see the letter from Cyprus to 5 A Yes. 5 M cCrone w here they say: here's the sam ples; right? 6 Q Okay. 6 A Yes. 7 Now, M cCrone --Johnson & Johnson asked them 7 Q The next page lists the three samples: 90-28; 8 to revise at least one report w e put up on the board, 8 90-29; and 90-30; right? 9 the one that gave the percentages o f trem olite in the 9 A It does, yes. 10 baby pow der that they looked at; right? 10 Q T hen --you're looking at the correct page, I 11 A I don't know whether they w ere asked to revise 11 th in k -- a t the top it says E P A L evel I I T E M A nalysis; 12 o r asked to com m ent, b u t there w a s a -- there w as a 12 right? 13 seco n d variance, yes. 13 A Yes. 14 Q Yes. 14 Q It says the client ID is CW M 90-28; right? 15 So rem em ber the chain o f events was the 15 A Yes. 16 rep o rt com es to Johnson & Johnson, it gives the 16 Q A nd we know from the cover that they say it 17 percen tag es o f trem olite, a n d th ey d escribe th em as 17 co ntains n o asbestiform m inerals; right? 18 "rods" in tw o sam ples o f Jo hnson's B ab y Pow der; 18 A Yes. 19 correct? 19 Q Now, look down at the count sheet and look at 20 A Correct. 20 the space for grid 56. 21 Q Then there's a note on it that says, "Do not 21 Do you see that? 22 use this report"; right? 22 A Yes. 23 A Yes. 23 Q It says the structure is F, w hich is fiber; 24 Q Then we have another handwritten note that 24 type, A for asbestos; length, 20 --that's microns; 25 says, "M cCrone report being revised"? 25 right? 69 (Pages 1327 - 1330) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1331 Page 1333 1 A Yes. 1 A Yes. 2 Q W idth, 1.5; right? 2 Q Okay. 3 A Yes. 3 So the first one, 20 and 1.5 is far m ore than 4 Q A nd then under SA ED and ED S, it says check 4 3 to 1; right? 5 mark, check mark, anthophyllite; right? 5 A It is, yes, yes. 6 A Yes. 6 Q A nd here it is actually identified - the 7 Q Twenty to 1 is a fiber; right? 7 structure is identified as a fiber; correct? F? See 8 A Yes. 8 that? 9 Q B y anybody's definition; right? 9 A Yes, yes. 10 A Yes. 10 Q Okay. 11 Q Okay, and that is a fiber o f anthophyllite; 11 A nd under O SH A , it's a m inim um o f 5 microns; 12 right? 12 right? 13 A By -- on a 20 to 1 ratio, yes. 13 A Yes. 14 Q Yeah. 14 Q So this w ould be a fiber under OSHA? 15 A Yes. 15 A Yes. 16 Q O kay, and if you turn to the next count sheet, 16 Q Okay. 17 there's a couple o f ED S readouts there. 17 The last one w as shorter. It was 1 m icron 18 The next count sheet is for Cyprus 90-29; 18 long; right? 19 right? 19 A Yes. 20 A Yes. 20 Q Okay. 21 Q Okay, and you don't see any structures 21 So that's not a countable fiber under OSHA? 22 identified on that count sheet; true? 22 A No, it is not, no. 23 A No. 23 Q Okay. 24 Q Okay. 24 So let's ju st talk about the first one you 25 G o to the last one, w hich should be for 25 brought up. That's a countable fiber under O SH A and Page 1332 Page 1334 1 90-30. 1 according to Johnson & Johnson; correct? 2 You see structure, F fiber, type C 2 A It is, yes. 3 chrysotile, length, 1, w idth .15, m eaning th at's about 3 Q Okay. 4 8 to 1. S o m eth in g like that; right? 4 And yet somehow the report from M cCrone back 5 A Yes. 5 to W indsor says, "No quantifiable am ounts of 6 Q Okay. 6 asbestiform minerals"; right? 7 And it says SAED, check mark, EDS, check 7 A Yes. 8 mark. 8 Q Okay. Y ou can set that aside, sir. 9 So that's a fiber o f asbestos; correct? 9 Y ou said this - - 1wrote this down - you 10 A I'm not a m ineralogist. Y ou know , I'm not 10 should report on w hat you find? 11 g oing to co m m en t on that. Y ou n e ed to a sk a 11 A Yes. 12 m ineralogist. 12 Q A s a scientist; right? 13 There have been - 1ju st tell you w here I'm 13 A Yes, absolutely. 14 com ing from . O S H A have defined the m inim um w idth, th ; 14 Q I f y o u fin d som ething, you n eed to rep o rt it; 15 m in im u m len g th for a fib er to b e defin ed as asbestos. 15 right? 16 That's - 1 can't rem em ber w hat the O SH A 16 A Yes. 17 d efin itio n is a t th is p oint, so it's p ro bably a 17 Q T hat goes for any scientist, yourself included; 18 q u estion to ch eck w ith a m ineralogist. 18 right? 19 Q W ell, let's do that, then. Let's take -- let's 19 A Yes. 20 actually take Johnson & Johnson's definition, w hich 20 Q It goes for McCrone? 21 happens to be the O SH A definition. 21 A Yes. 22 Remem ber on the first day I show ed you under 22 Q It goes for Rubino? 23 test m ethod 7024, fiber by J& J w as defined as 3 to 1 23 A Yes. 24 parallel sides. 24 Q Okay. 25 D o you remember that? 25 Do you agree that the act o f supplying 70 (Pages 1331 - 1334) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1335 Page 1337 1 information to the FD A can be ju st as deceptive as 1 things in duplicate or - 2 providing none if you provide incom plete information? 2 Q H ow m any -- for any studies that were done for 3 A I'm going to use the w ord again, 3 Jo h n so n & Jo h n so n th at show ed n o asbestos, h o w m any dii i 4 "hypothetical". 4 Johnson & Johnson go back to the researcher and say: 5 The act o f providing inform ation to the FDA 5 you had better redo this? 6 is --depends on w hat kind o f information. 6 A I don't know if anyone has ever used those 7 M y understanding o f the records that we've 7 w ords, "Better redo this". 8 gone through in the last four days is that Johnson & 8 It w ould not be unusual in any analytical 9 Johnson have provided a very large am ount of 9 study, w hether it's m icrobiology o r w hatever it m ay be, 10 inform ation to FD A w hich Johnson & Johnson considered 10 to question the study you've got, and say: does this 11 to b e v a lid a n d relev an t to the product. 11 so und right? Is this really the reality? Is this 12 I'm not aw are that any inform ation has been 12 reflectin g the p ictu re w e'v e h a d fo r the last ten 13 deliberately w ith h eld th at th e co m p an y has felt should 13 years? 14 have b een seen b y FD A . 14 So you m ay well go back to the lab and say: 15 But, again, I'm talking hypothetically. 15 w ould you check this, please? 16 Q W ell, let's go back to m y question in which, 16 Q I'm not asking a general question. Iw a s 17 w hich w a s a general question. 17 asking a very specific question about Johnson & 18 A Okay. 18 Johnson. 19 Q W hich is: the act o f supplying partial 19 A re you aw are o f any tim e w here Johnson & 20 inform ation can be ju st as bad or worse than supplying 20 Johnson asked any o f its consultants to redo a negative 21 none; correct? 21 study? 22 A Okay. 22 A I'm not aw are they've asked them to do a 23 Q G enerally speaking? 23 negative --redo a negative study. 24 A W ell, partial information, you should supply 24 Q Okay. 25 inform ation, partial or full, w hen you're sure o f its 25 W e saw a few tim es where they asked them to Page 1336 Page 1338 1 veracity, its correctness. 1 redo a positive study; correct? 2 Q W ell, let's say - let's say you have both 2 A T hey w ere asked to check the veracity o f the 3 positive and negative results, right, and the FDA wants 3 results. 4 to know is there any -- for instance, in this case, is 4 Q Right. 5 there any asbestos in the talc? 5 H ow m any tim es were they asked to check the 6 W e know they w anted to know that; right? 6 veracity o f a negative result? Ever? 7 A T hey did. 7 A I've not see that, no. 8 Q Okay. 8 Q All right. 9 A They do, yes. 9 Y ou're not an epidem iologist, are you? 10 Q A nd so if someone had both positive and 10 A No. 11 n egative tests and only su pplied th e negative, th at 11 Q Do you know how big o f a population o f m iners 12 w o u ld b e m isleading to the FD A ; correct? 12 you w ould have to have to be able to have sufficient 13 A It w ould be supplying insufficient information. 13 p o w e r to actu ally determ ine w h ether or n o t there is a 14 You w ould not be supplying the full picture. 14 relationship betw een inhalation o f talc in a m ine 15 Q Right. 15 settin g a n d m esotheliom a? 16 A Yes. 16 A I've not review ed -- you know, that's an 17 Q A nd it w ould be biased information; correct? 17 epidem iological question. 18 A That's an interpretation, yes. 18 W hat w e do know is w e've got over 2,000 talc 19 Q A nd you w ould agree w ith that interpretation? 19 m iners and m illers w ho have had a --often a lifetim e 20 A If the inform ation that was being withheld was 20 exposure, 25, 3 5 ,4 0 years in some cases. 21 show n to be true, as opposed to here's a partial 21 Q If I ask you that question, you can give me 22 experim ent, w e haven't finalized it. 22 that answ er, but that's not the question I asked you. 23 it's one o f the tilings in science. People 23 A Okay. Ask the question again. 24 often do a study and they say: I'd better confirm that, 24 Q The question I asked you was: do you know 25 and so you do it again. That's good practice, doing 25 whether or not any o f the studies you referenced had 71 (Pages 1335 - 1338) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1339 Page 1341 1 sufficient pow er to determine whether or not inhaling 1 This will be Exhibit 263. 2 talc in a m ine environm ent was sufficient to increase 2 (Exhibit 263 m arked for identification) 3 the risk for mesothelioma? 3 N ow , som etim es in m edia statem ents, sometimes 4 D o you know the answer to that question? 4 in advertisem ents we see Johnson & Johnson talking 5 A don't. All I read is w hat you read, is that 5 about how their talc is extrem ely pure; right? 6 none o f the miners developed mesotheliom a after a 6 A Yes. 7 lifetim e exposure to talc dust. 7 Q Very pure. 8 Q Right. 8 And under the CTFA standard that was set they 9 And, sir, have you -- are you aware o f any 9 said that the overall - w hatever goes into the bottle 10 studies com paring the quality o f the dust betw een a 10 has to be at least 90 per cent talc; right? 11 m in e setting, w h at is actu ally in the air, an d a 11 A I can't rem em ber, but I'll take your w ord for 12 co n su m er u se setting, w here they're u sin g the refined, 12 it, yes. 13 finely p u lv erized pow der? 13 Q That's fine. 14 Are you aware o f any studies comparing those 14 A A nd the CTFA statement. 15 tw o things? 15 Q W ell, okay. 16 A I've not looked at those studies, no, no. 16 So the extent that Johnson & Johnson's 17 There are studies w hich show the quantity o f 17 standard is any different than that, w hat is their 18 du st in the m ine. 18 standard on h o w m uch o f th e du st th at goes in the 19 Q Sure. 19 bottle is actually talc? 20 B ut you can have --for instance, you could 20 A It should be over 90 per cent, yes. 21 h a v e th e sam e q uantity in term s o f p articles o f tw o 21 Q Okay. 22 totally different dusts; right? 22 A O r thereabouts, yes. 23 A Yes. 23 Q All right. 24 Q B ut those dusts m ight be completely different 24 O ther stu ff m ight be --o f course, we're 25 in their character as far as how fine they are, what 25 talking about asbestos, but it m ight also be the Page 1340 Page 1342 1 they actually are m ade of; right? 1 chlorite you mentioned. 2 A Yes. 2 A Yes. 3 Q Okay. 3 Q It m ight be little bits o f other accessory 4 M S FRA ZIER: T hey've been disconnected. 4 m inerals; right? 5 M R PA N A TIER: A ll right. W ell, that's a good 5 A Yes, yes. 6 tim e for a break anyw ay, and I'm nearing the end. 6 Q Okay. 7 (O ff the record at 5:30 pm) 7 So this here is --this is one o f those 8 (O n the record at 5:41 pm ) 8 docum ents that w as provided to us. It's from som eone 9 BY MS FROST: 9 at --it looks like IITRI R esearch Institute, and it's 10 Q Sir, Exhibit 85 w as the one w here there was a 10 to the FD A , D ecem ber 2 0 ,1 9 7 3 . 11 survey d o n e o f som e com petitors, including Johnson's 11 Take look at that. 12 B ab y P ow der, b u t fo u r o th er com petitors from E keral, 12 A Okay. 13 R ichw ay, R ev co S tork-A id an d K -M art. 13 Q Have you seen that before? 14 A Mmm. 14 A N o, I'm not fam iliar w ith this one. 15 Q A s well as an evaluation o f international talcs 15 Q Okay. 16 and the W indsor float and stock. 16 He is calculating how m any chrysotile fibers 17 I f you'll take a look at the evaluation, this 17 o r how m any am phibole fibers you could have in talc 18 w as a n ev alu atio n o f ju s t am phiboles p e r slide, okay, 18 that is 99.9 per cent pure; right? 19 an d i f y o u take a look at th e bab y pow ders, there's 19 A Yes. 20 five total baby powders evaluated there; right? 20 Q Okay. 21 A Yes. 21 If you'll turn the page, right, and he's got 22 Q O ut o f those five, w hich one had the most 22 a big, long m ath equation there? 23 amphiboles? 23 A H e certainly has. 24 A Johnson's B aby Pow der, L ot PR6139. 24 Q G o ahead and go to the last page. I think he 25 Q A ll right. You can set that aside. 25 has his results, and he calculates results both for 72 (Pages 1339 - 1342) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1343 Page 1345 1 chrysotile and am phiboles; right? 1 Y ou talked w ith M s Frost about sort o f the 2 A Yes. 2 worldw ide talc control program ; right? 3 Q According to his calculations, if you have a 3 A Yes. 4 99.9 --and is it ju st .9 or 99? 4 Q W hen did that start? 5 A O n th is one it says .9. 5 A 1975 w as the first one I can find. 6 Q Okay. 6 Q Okay. 7 A 99.9. 7 Now, I have an undated docum ent here, but if 8 Q 99.9 per cent pure talc. 8 it started in '75, this w ould have to be p o st-7 5 -- 9 W hat is his calculation as to how m any 9 A Yeah. 10 chrysotile fibers can still be present in th at talc? 10 Q --because it's entitled A sbestos Occurrence in 11 A H e's claim ing it m ay contain --sorry, it can 11 T alc, C ontrol W orldw ide. 12 co n tain as m an y as 3,500 chrysotile fibers p er 12 It's Exhibit 264. 13 m illigram . 13 (Exhibit 264 m arked for identification) 14 Q Per m illigram. 14 N ow , in the second paragraph here, and I'll 15 A nd for amphibole asbestos, how m any fibers 15 let you see it in ju s t a second -- 16 p e r m illigram ? 16 A Thank you. 17 A W ell, for am phibole fibers, he's claim ing it 17 Q - they say: 18 m ig h t contain as m an y as 20,000 am phibole fibers p er 18 "In the US - and Italian-sourced talc, we 19 m illigram . 19 have excellent long-term audit inform ation, control o f 20 Q Okay. 20 specific ore veins, and an ongoing system o f 21 If w e w ant to know w hat that is per gram, we 21 m easurem ent th at w ill tell us i f w e had processed 22 ju st m ultiply each by a thousand; right? 22 asbestos-containing talc". 23 A Yes. 23 A nd you and I have talked about all o f 24 Q So for chrysotile, you w ould have 3.5 m illion 24 that --betw een m yself and you and M s Frost, we've 25 fibers per gram; right? 25 talked about that quite a bit; right? Page 1344 Page 1346 1 A Yes. 1 A W e have, yes. 2 Q And for amphibole asbestos, you w ould have 2 Q "In other sources, history is scant, control o f 3 20 m illion fibers per gram; right? 3 exact source is less reliable, and ongoing m easurements 4 A Yes. 4 are so m odest that they gave us little confidence". 5 Q O kay, and that's hypothetical. I f you had -- 5 B ut look at w hat it says at the very top. It 6 A The w hole --yeah, die w hole thing is a 6 says Present Position, and w hat is their introductory 7 hypothetical. 7 paragraph? 8 Q Sure. 8 A This says: 9 A W hat if, w hat if. 9 "... at present [we] have no control system 10 Q Right. 10 to prevent a s b e s to s ..." 11 A M ay contain. Yeah. 11 In --worldwide. 12 Q N ow , in fairness, w e see a lot o f w hat ifs 12 Q Okay. 13 ab o u t ho w m uch asbestos can b e in a talc product; 13 T hat's not ideal, is it? 14 right? 14 A W ell, obviously, in --this could have been 15 A W e have. In the last tw o or three days, we've 15 pre-'75, o f course, but at that tim e, there w as no US 16 seen a num ber o f hypothetical w hat ifs, yes. 16 control over the talcs in other non-U S countries. 17 Q Sure. Sure. 17 Q Tell m e w hat the title o f the -- 18 N ow , w hat he's saying is, if his m ath is 18 A The title is A sbestos Occurrence in Talc 19 correct, that you could claim som ething to be 19 C ontrol W orldw ide. 20 99.9 per cent pure, but that w ould allow for 20 Q W orldwide, and you said that program started in 21 3.5 m illion fibers p er gram o f chrysotile or 20 m illion 21 7 5 ? 22 fibers per gram o f am phibole asbestos; right? 22 A It started in 7 5 as an official program , yes. 23 A Yes. Hypothetically, if it contains that 23 Q Okay. All right, sir. Y ou can hand that over. 24 num ber in the first place. 24 W hat they say here, w hether this was 7 5 or a 25 Q Okay. Y ou can set that aside. 25 little before or after, it says: 73 (Pages 1343 - 1346) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1347 Page 1349 1 "W e at present have no control system to 1 So th is is A pril 1, '77; right? 2 prevent asbestos contam ination at levels detectable by 2 A Yes. 3 T E M in ou r fin ish ed p ro d u c t'1. 3 Q A nd it's done by EM V . W e haven't talked about 4 R ig h t? 4 them yet, have we? 5 A That's w hat it states, yes. 5 A No. 6 Q A nd Johnson & Johnson w as selling Johnson's 6 Q If you look at the photom icrographs near the 7 Baby Powder worldwide at that point; right? 7 back, you can see that they have EDS. This is electron 8 A Yes. The reference doesn't, o f course, state, 8 m icroscopy; correct? 9 but responsibility was left to the individual countries 9 A Yes. 10 to ensure quality. 10 Q All right. 11 Q W ell, the ultim ate responsibility is the 11 A nd w hat they say is they're trying some 12 co m pany th a t puts it on the shelf, a n d th at w as Johnson 12 d ifferent sam ple preparation. T h ey say; 13 & Johnson; right? 13 "It becam e evident during the last set o f 14 A From a legal perspective, if Johnson & Johnson 14 analyses that som e particles o f the largest talc 15 F rance o r Jo h n so n & Johnson G erm any p u t a p ro d u ct on 15 fraction w ere b ein g b iased ag ain st during norm al sam ple 16 the m arket, they have the legal responsibility. 16 preparation. B ecause trem olite is often present in 17 Q A Johnson & Johnson entity; correct? 17 this size fraction and is apparently less susceptible 18 A A Johnson & Johnson entity, yes. 18 to com m inution than talc ..." 19 Q All right. 19 W hat does "comm inution" mean? 20 This w ill be Exhibit 265. 20 A Breakdown. 21 (Exhibit 265 m arked for identification) 21 Q Okay. 22 Now, you said that at some point it became 22 A Yeah. 23 fairly regular to do quarterly m onitoring? 23 Q Right, because, o f course, talc is softer, as 24 A M mmhmm. 24 you say? 25 Q I think w e have one o f those here. 25 A It is, yes. Page 1348 Page 1350 1 Now , this is --if you look on the very first 1 Q S o it's easier to b reak d o w n talc th an 2 page, or actually the second page, right, do you see 2 trem olite; right? 3 that's highlighted there? 3 A Y es, yes. 4 A Yes. 4 Q "... tw o p rep aratio n s are n o w b ein g exam ined: 5 Q A nd it says Consultant R eport to Johnson & 5 one is as before, another is a slurry o f the bottom 6 Johnson, 9 T alc Sam ples, A pril 1, '77; right? 6 fraction o f talc dispersed and decanted w ith ethyl 7 A Yes. 7 a lc o h o l..." e t cetera; okay? 8 Q That would be the first day o f the second 8 T hey have several different tests. T hey have 9 quarter? 9 D g ro u n d , an d th at's th eir designation. 10 A Yes. 10 I take it that m eans "dom estic ground"? 11 Q Right. 11 A I d o n 't know . 12 A nd it's to Johnson & Johnson, and W indsor 12 Q Okay. 13 m ills; right? 13 A I d o n 't know . I w o u ld n 't com m ent. 14 A Yes. 14 Q T hey have no - nothing detected there; 15 Q Okay. 15 correct? 16 So on the next page it says; 16 A No. 17 "This report gives the results o f analysis 17 Q T h at's o n th e p ag e at the bottom , 8983? 18 fo r nin e talc a n d ro ck sam ples and d iscu sses new 18 A Yeah. 19 p reparation an d exam ination techniques th at have b een 19 Q Is th at correct? 20 im plem ented to supplement previous techniques. Other 20 A Yes. 21 than this, exam ination is as described in previous 21 Q Okay. 22 reports". 22 F or A com posite, and you guys w ere doing 23 I'm going to go to the board, because we 23 com posite quarterly T E M ; correct? 24 haven't talked about this report yet, and w e started 24 A Yes. 25 to. I put the date dow n and then I forgot. 25 Q T h ey say b o th -- I'm ju s t go in g to w rite this 74 (Pages 1347 - 1350) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1351 Page 1353 1 in green so it's easier --they say: 1 num bers o f large trem olite particles. This sam ple was 2 "Both large and small fibrous trem olite 2 prepared as described in the second paragraph o f the 3 particles fo u n d ..." 3 report. Figures 18 and 19 show the tw o types o f 4 R ig h t? 4 sam ples that w ould be prepared for each sample. One 5 A That's w hat they state, yes. 5 fibrous trem olite particle w as found in the larger 6 Q Okay. 6 fraction, Figure 20". 7 For O ld Stock Composite, does that m ean they 7 So one trem olite particle; right? 8 were just testing for a past quarter there? 8 A Yes. 9 A I don't know. It's - - you know, I'm going to 9 Q One non-fibrous? 10 use the w ord "speculate", but I w ouldn't w ant to 10 A Yes. 11 speculate. 11 Q Okay. 12 Q Okay. D on't speculate then. 12 A nd then there's a lot o f pictures, and 13 A Thank you. 13 th ey 'v e g o t som e a t 1,500 tim es, 15,000 tim es. So this 14 Q They say: 14 is electron m icroscopy; correct? 15 "One small, fibrous trem olite particle". 15 A Yes. 16 R ig h t? 16 Q Right. 17 A That's w hat they say, yes. 17 Even if you look at the bottom o f 8988, so go 18 Q Then in Sam ples -- they have something labeled 18 to th at page, 8988, they have som e pictures. 19 Sam ples 14 and 15: 19 Now, m ost o f these old photocopied pictures 20 "Trem olite particles here were found in 20 do n 't com e o u t too w ell; right? 21 several experim ental types o f p rep aratio n s ..." 21 A T hey don't. 22 B ecause they're talking about how they're 22 Q But these two on the left, you can actually see 23 changing up --how they're preparing the slides for 23 there's a big bundle o f trem olite there in the top 24 microscopy; right? 24 left; right? 25 A Yeah. 25 A You can, yes. Page 1352 Page 1354 1 Q "...how ever. Fibrous and non-fibrous 1 Q A nd then there's a very long fiber at 5,000 X 2 trem olite are show n in F igures 8, 9 and 10". 2 o f trem olite there on the bottom left; right? 3 So th ey say -- they ju st say som e trem olite 3 A Yes. 4 fo r 14 and 15; correct? 4 Q Okay. 5 A T hey do say that, yes. 5 That's a fiber o f asbestos sir; correct? 6 Q A n d fo r 8 ,9 and 10, again, n o n -fib ro u s - I'm 6 A I w ould say so, looking at that picture, yes. 7 sorry, fibrous and non-fibrous trem olite. 7 Q All right, sir. 8 Is that correct? 8 A B ut can I m ake a comment? 9 A T h at's w h a t's w ritten , yes. 9 Q One second. 10 Q S am ple 16 w as - I'm ju st going to list it so 10 Go ahead and turn to 8993, please. Sorry, I 11 w e 'r e a ll o n t h e s a m e p a g e h e re . 11 h a d one m ore I w an ted to show you. 12 Sam ple 16 w as non-fibrous trem olite. 12 Y ou can see there on the top left there's 13 S o th ey 're g etting a m ixture; correct? 13 an o th er large bun d le o f trem olite fibers; right? 14 A Yes. 14 A Yes. 15 Q T h ey 're g ettin g so m e fibrous a n d som e 15 Q A nd those --they label those as "fibrous 16 n o n -fib ro u s; rig h t? 16 trem olite particles"; correct? 17 A C orrect. 17 A They do, yes. 18 Q N o a s b e s to s in 17 th r o u g h 2 1 , a n d I g u e s s th a t 18 Q Right, sir. Y ou can set that aside. 19 is a t 2111? 19 Now, w hat did you want to say -- 20 A Yes. 20 A Yes. 21 Q S o 17 th ro u g h 2 1 - 1 w ill p u t a II b y it: 21 Q --and I'm ju st allow ing y ou to say it. I 22 nothing. 22 didn't ask a question. B ut you can say w hat you w ant 23 A n d then B com posite. T hey say: 23 to say. 24 "T he sam ple represents w hat is hoped to be a 24 A Thank you. Thank you. 25 su ccessful p rep aratio n tech n iq u e fo r d etecting sm all 25 It relates to this, because I have seen this 75 (Pages 1351 - 1354) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1355 Page 1357 1 before and it is addressed to Johnson & Johnson. 1 Talcum Products; do you see that? 2 A t the tim e A pril, '77, Johnson & Johnson 2 A Yes. 3 also ow ned the industrial m ine and they would also have 4 been sending sam ples o f industrial talc. 3 Q Do you see that the authors are Pooley Rohl, 4 Langer, Bowes and Skinner; right? 5 This report, for w hatever reason, doesn't 5 A Yes. 6 state w hat --w hich m ine w as being evaluated. It's an 6 Q So it looks like Pooley, Rohl and Langer, all 7 unknown. 7 these guys actually w rote a paper together; right? 8 It's ju st a com m ent I w anted to make. 8 A Yes. W as this published? 9 Q Y ou're saying you don't know i f that is an 9 Q W ell, that's a good question. W e're going to 10 industrial sam ple? 10 talk about that. 11 A T hat is correct. 11 A Okay. 12 Q Okay. 12 Q So w e w ill get there. 13 W e do know a few things. It's the start o f 13 So, as you can see, this was a evaluation o f 14 the second quarter; right? 14 it looks like both m ine and consum er talc products; 15 A Yes. 15 correct? 16 Q Y ou w ere doing -- you were sam pling the 16 A Yes. 17 cosm etic quarterly; correct? 17 Q Okay. 18 A Y es, b ut w e haven't discussed the industrial 18 Now, you asked m e whether or not this was 19 sam pling. 19 published. I take it, then, you're not aw are if it w as 20 Q W ell, do we have a docum ent here that tells us 20 published? 21 w h a t the in d ustrial sam pling w as? 21 A I'm aw are o f a paper that Pooley authored w ith 22 A No, because I was not deposed to talk about 22 Langer, or a draft paper that was presented or not 23 industrial sam pling, and I don't have that information. 23 presented at a symposium. 24 Q But w ho brought it up, sir? 24 Q Mmmhmm? 25 A N o, I brought it up because this does not state 25 A A nd because Pooley did not agree with the draft Page 1356 Page 1358 1 it's cosm etic talc from the cosm etic m ine. It's a 1 th at it w as presented at. 2 bland report. 2 Q Okay. 3 I ju st w anted to note for the record it 3 So i f you turn to the --we'll talk about 4 doesn't state that it's cosm etic talc. 4 w hether it was presented or not, but if you turn to the 5 Q W ell, it also d o esn't state th at it's 5 page --w ell, let's go to the Conclusions, okay. 6 industrial talc, does it? 6 The Conclusion page is the one with the Bates 7 A N o, it doesn't. It's a bland report on talc. 7 stamp 4622. 8 Q Right. 8 A Yes. 9 W hat we do know is it is addressed to Johnson 9 Q Conclusions. 10 & Johnson; correct? 10 1. T he analysis o f tw enty-seven sam ples o f 11 A Correct. 11 raw talc im ported into G reat B ritain an d eighteen 12 Q It is the start o f the second quarter o f 1977; 12 consum er talcum products purchased at retail stores in 13 correct? 13 G reat B ritain h a s show n th at these m aterials co n sist o f 14 A Correct. 14 a variable and com plex m ixture o f m inerals". 15 Q It is electron m icroscopy; correct? 15 So we know that it was 27 samples o f raw and 16 A Correct. 16 18 consum er sam ples; right? 17 Q Johnson & Johnson w as doing quarterly testing 17 A That's w hat's stated, yes. 18 o f th eir talc b y electron m icroscopy; correct? 18 Q It says: 19 A Correct. 19 "Trem olite was found in six o f the forty-five 20 Q All right. 20 samples, in am ounts up to 30% by weight. Three o f 21 (Reporter clarification) 21 these six sam ples w ere consum er talcs. A nthophyllite 22 This w ill be Exhibit 266. 22 w as found in one consum er talcum. Serpentine phases, 23 (Exhibit 266 m arked for identification) 23 possibly including chrysotile, were found in at least 24 Sir, do you see that this is a paper entitled 24 tw o samples". 25 M ineralology and Chemistry o f British Talc and Consume] 25 D id I read that right? 76 (Pages 1355 - 1358) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1367 Page 1369 1 high grade platelet talc and a sm all am ount o f 1 m entioned those going back to the 1950s, '60s, the 2 fragrance. To assure that we obtain the purest talc 2 source o f the talc was the Italian 00000 talc, w hich we 3 available, w e extract ore from our ow n m ines in Verm ont 3 know m ay contain traces o f trem olite. 4 w hich were selected because o f the high quality and 4 B ut based on thorough evaluation, that has 5 purity o f the talc. The talc ore then undergoes a 5 been shown to be non-asbestos tremolite. 6 cleansing procedure know n as flotation that involves 6 So it w ill rem ove impurities. It m ay well 7 m any separate 'washing' operations to rem ove any 7 leave som e trem olite present. 8 impurities w hich m ight be present". 8 Q So I'm going to ask you the question again. 9 N ow , I'm going to stop there. 9 W e know that, first o f all, I asked you this 10 W e know that statem ent is false; correct, 10 question already today --w e know that Johnson & 11 sir? 11 Jo h n so n n ev er said to B attelle o r anybody else: go b ack 12 A The talc undergoes several washing operations, 12 an d decid e w h at portion o f the flotation w h ere you 13 yes. 13 fo u n d trem olite is fibrous versus non-fibrous; correct? 14 Q Right, and his statem ent that it rem oves any 14 A That is correct. 15 im purities is false; correct? 15 Q Okay. 16 A It depends how w e define "any impurities". 16 A Yes. 17 The washing involves removal o f a great deal 17 Q This person from Johnson & Johnson is telling 18 o f im purities, y o u know , the sm all fines, the 18 one o f y o u r consum ers th at the talc is washed; okay? 19 particles, hem atite, iro n m agnetic particles. 19 "... m any separate 'w ashing' operations to 20 T hey all get rem oved, as do sm all, fragile 20 remove any impurities which m ight be present". 21 fragm ents o f talc. 21 To a person that is receiving that letter, a 22 Q M r- 22 lay person, a consum er, the w ay they take that is: they 23 A Those are impurities. 23 git rid o f all the im purities, isn't it, sir? 24 Am I m issing som ething here? 24 A T h at's - w ell, that's p art o f the --the next 25 Q Yes, sir. It's right here on the board. 25 sentence. Page 1368 Page 1370 1 These are the results o f the flotations o f 1 Q Hold on. Hold on. 2 Italian talc, all starting back in the '50s, w here they 2 W e're going to get there; okay? 3 were show ing that, even w ith the flotations, the 3 A Okay. 4 flotation system , the w ashing, like they call it; 4 Q H ow a regular person hears that is: hey, they 5 right? 5 get rid o f whatever impurities m ight be present, 6 A Yes. 6 because that's w hat the guys says; right? 7 Q T hey were still getting trem olite in the end 7 A He does, and then he goes on in the next 8 result; correct, sir? 8 sentence. 9 A In the 1950s? 9 Q W hich w e're going to get to, okay. 10 Q In the 1950s? 10 "Finally, the talc is checked by complex 11 A Yes. 11 scientific m ethods including x -ray diffraction, 12 Q Through the 1960s, and, sir, w e have at least 12 differential therm al analysis, and electron m icroscopy 13 tw o letters in the 1970s, on e from C olorado S chool o f 13 w ith electron differentiation to confirm the absence o f 14 M ines, one from H ildick-Sm ith to a federal agency w here 14 asbestos". 15 th ey say: w e can n o t guarantee rem oval o f all elongate 15 R ig h t? 16 particles. 16 A That's rig h t 17 And, in fact, today I showed you the one 17 Q Okay. 18 w here C olorado S chool o f M ines said: w e can 't get rid 18 So this was w ritten in Decem ber 30,1974. 19 o f trem olite; right? 19 So w e have all o f this different testing. 20 A Yes. 20 Johnson & Johnson B aby Pow der ore has trace fibrous 21 Q So the statem ent that w e w ash it and we get rid 21 trem olite/actinolite .001 per cent chrysotile in 22 o f any im purities is a false statement. 22 m edicated pow er is the additive. 23 You m ight get rid o f some impurities, but you 23 .01 per cent chrysotile in Johnson's B aby 24 don't get rid o f any impurities; correct? 24 Powder. 25 A W ell, you m entioned trem olite and, as you 25 W e have --w e have 1 to .5 p e r cent trem olite 79 (Pages 1367 - 1370) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1371 Page 1373 1 and .2 to .3 per cent trem oiite in 108 and 109T. 1 A nd that Johnson & Johnson's goal in their 2 W e have trem oiite fibers that are suspected 2 ow n w ords w as to "control the work"; right? 3 in Johnson & Johnson Baby Powders. 3 A Johnson & Johnson's goal is to actually find 4 W e have confirm ed am phibole in four samples 4 the truth. 5 a t b etw een .001 p e r cen t a n d .01 p e r cent. 5 Q I'm not asking for your words. I'm asking to 6 The FD A study, then. W e have a --w ait a 6 agree w hether or not Johnson & Johnson's w ords w ere to 7 m inute, w hat's the date o f that? 7 "control the work"? 8 A Decem ber, 1974. 8 A It depends how w e define "control". 9 Q 12 m onths earlier, w e started a chrysotile 9 I think I've said this before, the comm ents 10 suppression system w here w e saw chrysotile in the final 10 from D r A shton m ade it also clear that Rubino and his 11 float; correct? 11 colleagues w ere v e ry professional. 12 W e looked at that today; right? 12 They w ould not subject them selves to any form 13 A T hat was --that was claim ed to be the case. 13 o f control. T hey w ere g oing to give an honest 14 Q Okay. 14 appraisal o f their results. 15 So despite all o f that, this is w hat he tells 15 Q D id Johnson & Johnson use the word "control" in 16 this person: that w e get rid o f any asbestos; right? 16 relation to R ubino's w ork? 17 A That's w hat he's w ritten, yes. 17 A A n individual used the w ord "control". 18 Q Then in the second paragraph he says: 18 Q Okay. A ll right, sir. Y ou can set that aside. 19 "It is unfortunate that articles like this 19 Is Johnson & Johnson's current philosophy, 20 appear from tim e to tim e, as they present a sensational 20 right now today, that --o r let's ju st say w ithin the 21 and scary perspective, rather than a balanced and 21 last ten years, okay --in the last ten years, is 22 scientific one. D ata associated w ith talc that is 22 Johnson & Johnson currently still testing the final 23 heavily contam inated with asbestos or other dusts o f 23 product, as opposed to ju st the raw material? 24 course has no bearing on the cosm etic use o f a purified 24 A I believe so. 25 talc like ours". 25 Q Okay. Page 1372 Page 1374 1 Now, w e know that the very next year their 1 It is Johnson & Johnson's policy that the 2 ow n study show ed that the cosmetic talc had more 2 final product should be tested? 3 asbestos in it than the industrial talc; right? 3 A I believe that is part o f the audit, yes. 4 A T hat was w hat was w ritten on the chart, yes. 4 Q All right. 5 Q Right. 5 Now, w ho is John Lemmo, L-E-M -M -O? 6 Do you know whether or not M r Infante wrote 6 A I think the name is in the Quality Assurance 7 M s Sorensen back and gave her those results? 7 Department. 8 A I do not know. 8 Q Okay. 9 Q Okay. 9 W ho's M atthew Noble? 10 In the m iddle o f the paragraph it says: 10 A H e's an ex-em ployee in the UK. 11 "The m ost recent inform ation in this regard 11 Q Did you know him? 12 w a s p resen ted b y P ro fessor G F R ubino at the 37th 12 A Yes, I did, yes. 13 C ongress o f the Italian S ociety o f O ccupational 13 Q W hat w as his job? 14 D ise a se s..." 14 A He was a senior scientist. 15 A nd he goes on to talk about that; right? 15 Q Senior scientist. Okay. 16 A Yes. 16 Sorry for the little break there. This will 17 Q D id he disclose that Johnson & Johnson funded 17 b e 269. 18 that? 18 (Exhibit 269 m arked for identification) 19 A Johnson & Johnson m ade a grant to Rubino, not 19 I only have the one copy, so take your time. 20 necessarily full cost o f the work, but they m ade a 20 No, I can bring it up here. 21 gran t to D r R ubino. 21 All right, sir. Here you go. 22 Q R ight. W e saw at one point it w as I think 12 22 A Thank you. 23 or 18,000. A t another point it w as 30,000? 24 A Yes. 23 Q D o you see that's an email sent D ecem ber 6, 24 2009. The subject is Global Talc Specification; right? 25 Q Right? 25 A Yes. 80 (Pages 1371 - 1374) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1375 Page 1377 1 Q A nd it regards a PCPC m eeting in DC. 1 responding to regulatory stuff; right? 2 That's the CTFA? 2 A Y eah. H e's b e en a t P C P C for a few years, yes. 3 A Yes. 3 Q Okay. Do you know him? 4 Q Right. 4 A Id o . I've m et him , yes. 5 It says -- this is M r Lem m o --he says: 5 Q Okay. A ll right. 6 "I did attend the PCPC m eeting in DC 6 Do you know whether or not Johnson & Johnson 7 yesterday. I m ade it a point to have off-line 7 has retained him as an expert witness in litigation? 8 discussions with the attending talc experts (Drew Van 8 A I don't know that, no. Y es o r no, I've no 9 O rden from RJ Lee, Julie Pier from Rio Tinto and Gary 9 idea. i 10 T om aino fro m S peciality M inerals)". 10 Q Okay. 11 Do you know him? 11 Do you know whether anybody has retained him 12 A N o, I don't know him , no. 12 as an expert in asbestos talc litigation? 13 Q Okay. 13 A I don't, no. 14 W hat does "off-line discussion" mean? 14 Q Okay. 15 A It's probably ju st face it face, like w e're 15 A I m et him but, you know , beyond that I don't 16 having now . 16 k now w hat his d ay to d ay activities are. 17 W ell, no, actually it's not. W e're being 17 Q "This was reinforced in a comm ent from the PCPC 18 recorded. B u t i f the reco rd in g w as o f f an d w e had a 18 rep (John B ailey) w ho re-stated m y assertion that i f w e 19 chat, th at's off-line. 19 control (elim inate) asbestos in the raw m aterial there 20 Q Got you. 20 is no need to test for it in finished products. There 21 "All w ere in agreem ent that current XRD 21 w as no acknow ledgm ent from the FD A on this view ". 22 techniques are appropriate for testing for free 22 Now, do you agree with this proposition by 23 crystalline silica, and that a lim it o f less than 0.5% 23 M r Lem m o that there is no need to test for it in the 24 w as reasonable from the standpoint o f analytical 24 finished products? 25 sensitivity and w hat we can practically expect from our 25 A N o, I th in k h e 's ju s t m aking a suggestion. Page 1376 Page 1378 1 high grade talc RM s". 1 It's not one that w ould, you know , be accepted, I don't 2 That's raw m aterials; right? 2 think, by his senior management. 3 A Raw materials, yes. 3 Q Okay. 4 Q "The FDA (John Gasper) m ade a brief 4 Because the truth is that the raw material 5 presentation at the talc portion o f the meeting, and 5 testing can absolutely m iss something; correct? 6 m entioned that FD A is soon to complete a contracted 6 A Raw m aterial or m ine? Raw material or m ine? 7 analytical study o f asbestos in US talc raw m aterials 7 Q The m ine testing can m iss something; right? 8 and finished products containing talc". 8 A The m ine testing, yes. 9 A nd we've talked about that today? 9 Q The raw material testing can miss something? 10 A W e've discussed that today, yes. 10 A In theory. 11 Q Okay. Last paragraph: 11 Q A nd even the final product testing can miss 12 "During the Q& A session I pointed out that 12 som ething; right? 13 the d ifficulties in testin g for asbestos i n ... raw 13 A In theory, yes. 14 m aterial beco m e even g reater w h e n testin g a w ide 14 Q Okay. 15 variety o f fin ish ed pro ducts th at contain talc (unknow n 15 And, for instance, I think we can point to an 16 potential interferences, low er overall sensitivity, no 16 exam ple o f this if w e take it at face value, w hich is 17 valid ated m ethods, etc.)". 17 i f w e look a t the report from the independent 18 N ow , there are validated m ethods for testing 18 laboratory from 2004, he studied Johnson's B ab y P o w d er 19 finished products; correct, sir? 19 and found .2 p e r cent anthophyllite asbestos; right? 20 A Yes. 20 A Yes. 21 Q Okay. 21 Q If we take that at face value, that means that 22 "This was reinforced in a com m ent from the 22 the m ine m issed it, the raw m aterials m issed it, and 23 PC PC rep (John B ailey) ..." 23 the final product testing m issed it; right? 24 N ow , John Bailey is one o f the guys w ho works 24 A Yes. 25 at PCPC and helps co-ordinate with industry and 25 Q But that also assumes that all three o f those 81 (Pages 1375 - 1378) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1379 Page 1381 1 tests happened; right? 1 docum ents I've seen, I haven't seen a single one w ith 2 A Yes. 2 your nam e on it if you were involved? 3 Q Because not every pound or every ton that 3 A Okay. They w ould probably be in the UK 4 leaves the m ine is tested; correct? 4 com pany's records, then, in th at case, th at an y 5 A That w ould be impossible. 5 m eetings we had w ith people like Bruce Semple and other 6 Q Right. O f course. 6 colleagues. He w ould visit the U K office or the U K 7 A You w ould never reach the manufacturing plant. 7 facilities. W e'd m eet and I'd get an update. 8 Q Right, and certainly not every ton or even 8 M inutes w ould be held in the UK, if anything. 9 every lot is tested at the plant; right? 9 Q So there should be m inutes o f those meetings? 10 A N ot every ton, no. 10 A I f the m inutes were taken o f any meeting, yes, 11 Q A nd certainly not every bottle is tested; 11 yes. 12 right? 12 Q W ell, w e know that Johnson & Johnson is m inute 13 A N ot every bottle, no. 13 taking com pany; right? 14 Q W e know that at the m ine, they only test every 14 A M aybe in the US. In the UK, things were, 15 65 0 tons -- 15 certainly b a ck in the '70s, a little b it m ore inform al. 16 A Yes. 16 Q W ell, we have information certainly going back 17 Q -- by J4; right? 17 betw een the U K branch and the U S quite a b it in these 18 A Yes. 18 papers w e've looked at; right? 19 Q So the prospect o f m issing som ething is 19 A Yes, possible. Yeah. 20 certainly a reality if we take that report at face 20 Q A nd w e've only looked at --I m arked ju st over 21 v alue; right? 21 2 00 exhibits, and w e have w ell o ver a hundred thousand 22 A A theoretical possibility, yes. 22 o f them, o f total documents. 23 Q Okay. 23 A Yeah. 24 A ll right. Now, you said that --you said 24 Q So there should be documents with your name on 25 th at your fam ily use Johnson & Johnson's B aby Powder. 25 it if you w ere involved in talc back then; right? Page 1380 Page 1382 1 W hen was the first tim e -- well, let m e ask you, you 1 A It depends if those m inutes that w ere taken in 2 said your kids used it? 2 the U K or what have you were transmitted back to the US 3 A Yeah. 3 and what have you. 4 Q I don't w ant to get personal, but w hen were 4 B ut Bruce Sem ple certainly visited the U K 5 your kids bom ? 5 office on m any occasions in the 1970s. W e m et, we 6 A 70 --that's right, they'll never forgive m e if 6 discussed this topic, and I kept up to date with the 7 I g et it w rong --'74, '75, '81. 7 information. 8 Q O kay. All right. 8 Q Y ou discussed the asbestos topic? 9 W hen was the first time that you had 9 A W e discussed talc safety. It was topical at 10 responsibility for talc at Johnson & Johnson? 10 the tim e, as you know . W e've discussed it in the last 11 A Seventy-six. 11 fo u r days. 12 Q O kay, and were you responsible - 1 didn't see 12 Q Sure. Yeah. 13 y o u r nam e o n an y o f th is early s tu ff - w ere yo u 13 But I just w ant to know to w hat extent you 14 dealing w ith the asbestos issue? 14 w ere involved in asbestos? 15 A I was dealing with the safety o f talc in the UK 15 A N ot asbestos, no. W e were involved in talc 16 a n d the E uro p ean perspective -- 16 safety, and the inform ation w e've discussed in the last 17 Q Mmmhmm? 17 few days, people like R ohl and L anger and w hat w as 18 A -- as it pertained information crossing the 18 happening w ith the CTFA . 19 A tlantic. I w as involved in dialogue w ith peo p le like 19 T hat was part o f the dialog, ju st essentially 20 B ruce Sem ple, M D. He regularly visited our offices in 20 not that I w ould m ake a m ajor contribution, but that we 21 the U K . 21 w ould b e kept up to date w ith w hat's happening, because 22 So, yes, certainly from that tim e, I was 22 it m ight affect the European operations. 23 familiar with the w hole topic and issue from --right 23 Q It sounds like your involvem ent at all in 24 from the day I started, essentially, w ith J&J. 24 talc - well, in asbestos w ould be in passing at best. 25 Q O kay, b ut I'm ju st --in the 170,000 plus 25 A The involvem ent was in talc safety as it 82 (Pages 1379 - 1382) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1383 1 related to the publications we've been talking about 1 Q Okay. All right. Page 1385 2 today. Publications in the public domain, Rohl, 2 Does Johnson & Johnson know the total num ber 3 Langer, Lewin, anything that was happening with CTFA. 3 o f Johnson & Johnson talc product users w ho have died 4 That was -- that was shared with myself and 4 or are dying from mesothelioma? 5 our Medical Director. 5 A I don't. 6 Q And when you arrived in 1975 -- 6 Q W hat is the total num ber o f Johnson & Johnson 7 A Seventy-six. 7 talc users who have sued you because they are dying of 8 Q -- when you arrived in '76, did you sit down 8 mesotheliom a? 9 and go through all of the historical testing of Italian 9 A I don't know the answ er to that. 10 and Vermont talc for asbestos? 10 Q Okay. Certainly, Johnson & Johnson has that 11 A No, no. 11 inform ation; right? 12 Q Okay. 12 A I don't. Yes, it is possible that the Legal 13 A Not at that point in time, no. 13 D epartm ent m ay w ay. I can 't an sw er th at question. 14 Q When did you --when did you start to 14 Q Y ou w ere asked about --you w ere asked for this 15 appreciate that there was -- and I'll use the word 15 com m ent: ab o u t w arnings. D o y o u recall talk in g about 16 "controversy", because that's the word Johnson & 16 w arnings? 17 Johnson uses, but a controversy about asbestos in talc? 17 A I do, yes. 18 A Well, controversy came about with Dr Rohl, Dr 18 Q A nd M s Frost said --she brought up the concept 19 Langer, Dr Lewin in the early '70s, and then the 19 o f w arning ju s t for the fun o f it; right? 20 ongoing dialogue between CTFA, between CTFA and FDA. 20 A Yes. 21 That was a topic for discussion that we had 21 Q Okay. 22 with Dr Semple back in the mid-'70s, late '70s, yes. 22 If there w as asbestos in anybody's talc, m uch 23 Q Okay. So you became aware of it some time in 23 less Johnson & Johnson's, and they knew about it, the 24 the mid to late '70s? 24 m anufacturer knew about it, there should be a warning 25 A From when I joined the company. 25 on it; right? Page 1384 Page 1386 1 Q Okay. 1 A If a talc product was deem ed unsafe by medical 2 A I rem em ber it w as one o f the first topics w e -- 2 experts, scientific experts, it w ould be reasonable to 3 as a toxicologist, it w as a case of: you need to get up 3 w arn, or even n ot to sell it. 4 to speed with w hat's happening out there. 4 Q Correct, and in fact if Johnson & Johnson talc 5 So, yes, from the m id-'70s onward. 5 pow ders had asbestos in it, they shouldn't have been 6 Q Right. 6 sold at all; correct? 7 A So m id-'60s --'76 onwards. 7 A If they had asbestos that was dangerous and the 8 Q Okay. 8 product w asn't safe, then that's a reasonable 9 Now, you said that your kids used the baby 9 supposition. 10 pow der -- you used the baby pow der on your kids? 10 Q Okay, and in the 1960s, Johnson & Johnson was 11 A Yeah. 11 aw are th at doctors w ere alread y saying baby pow der 12 Q They use it on the grandkids; right? 12 shouldn't b e used on babies; right? 13 A Yeah. Still do. O r their parents do. 13 A Y eah, doctors are entitled to an opinion. 14 Q Okay. 14 W e've certainly seen in the last couple o f 15 N ow , m y question, then, is that's, w hat, 12 15 days th at a couple o f doctors, o r certainly several 16 p eo ple? E ig h t grandkids, th ree k i d s ... 16 doctors, h ad that opinion. 17 A It's eleven. 17 Q I'm going to re-ask the question because you're 18 Q Okay, well, including you said your 99 year old 18 answ ering a question I didn't ask. 19 m um ? 19 A Okay. 20 A Yeah, m y mum, yeah. W ell, she passed away and 20 Q Johnson & Johnson knew, as o f the 1960s and 21 w h e n w e w ere clearing o ut h e r cupboards recently 1 21 even before, that doctors w ere recom m ending against the 22 noticed another tub o f Johnson's Baby Powder. 22 use o f baby powder, saying it should not be used; 23 Q Yeah. W hat did you do w ith it? 23 correct? 24 A W ell, like everything else in the house, it 24 A Some doctors were. 25 w ent in the dumpster. 25 Q Johnson & Johnson still sells it; correct? 83 (Pages 1383 - 1386) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1387 Page 1389 1 A Correct. 1 should be minimized; correct? 2 M R PA NATIER: Let's go o ff the record and see 2 A Yes. 3 if I have anything else. 3 MR PANATIER: Those are all the questions I 4 (O ff the record at 6:32 pm) 4 have for you at this time, sir. Thank you. 5 (On the record at 6:34 pm) 5 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 6 BY M R PANATIER: 6 EXAMINATION: 7 Q Just briefly, sir, Exhibit 22 --it was one o f 7 BY MS FROST: 8 the first exhibits w e used in the case, was a report o f 8 Q Dr Hopkins, I'm going to start close to the end 9 a visit to Italy in 1959, and I'll go ahead and hand it 9 o f where Mr Panatier ended. 10 to you. I have a copy o f it. 10 In connection with the ongoing sale of 11 This is just on the last thing we talked 11 Johnson & Johnson Baby Powder, has the company had any 12 about. 1959. H ere's w h at it says: 12 reason historically to be concerned about the 13 "The Val Chisone owners were worried lest we 13 development o f mesothelioma in the users o f its baby 14 had found poisonous m inerals in the talc or had 14 powder or other cosmetic baby products? 15 oth erw ise b e en displeased. W h en to ld w e m erely had a 15 A No, none whatsoever. 16 sch em e fo r im proving th eir ex cellent talc, th ey w ere 16 Q You spoke with Mr Panatier about the Rubino 17 m o st anxious to cooperate. M asci ex p lain ed th at ou r 17 study, and irrespective o f which o f the years of 18 p ro b lem w a s n ot a m atter o f dissatisfaction, b u t th at 18 publication we're talking about, can you tell us 19 a b o u t 1/3 o f the doctors are presen tly ad vising against 19 whether or not the data concerning the development of 20 the use o f baby talc inasmuch as starches and oils have 20 neoplasms was made available to the medical community? 21 a greater purity and there is no dangerous dust to 21 A It was made available, yes, through symposia, 22 inhale". 22 publications, yes. 23 Now, you remember reading that on Day 1 ,1 23 Q The data that is important as it relates to ' 24 think? 24 these specific cases that we're here about, lung cancer 25 A Yes, w e've read this before, yes, yes. 25 or mesothelioma, was that information included in the Page 1388 Page 1390 1 Q A nd yo u have said repeatedly everyone is 1 published version, or was it excluded from the 2 entitled to their opinion, but this is one third o f 2 published version? 3 doctors, according to them , in 1959; right? 3 A There's a record m entioning m esotheliom a and 4 A That is w hat is written, yes. 4 lung cancer that was included as part o f the analysis. 5 Q Okay. 5 Q A n d is th at tru e w h eth er w e 're talking about 6 H old on, there's one m ore thing apparently 6 1976 or 1979? 7 that I'm supposed to ask about. 7 A Yes. 8 A nd then the very next sentence, sir. 8 Q M r Panatier asked you about a document numbered 9 M r M asci is som eone w ith Johnson & Johnson, 9 265, and I'm going to hand you m y copy o f that. 10 N ick M asci; right? 10 Do you rem em ber that? That is the ENV 11 A Yes, that's m y --m y read o f it, yes. 11 analysis? 12 Q W ell, it actually says he's -- 12 A Yes, I do rem em ber this. I recollect reading 13 A Yes, it does. It says Johnson & Johnson, yes. 13 th is som e w hile back. 14 Q T he next thing he says is: 14 Q In connection with the ENV analysis, is there 15 "M asci explained that J& J has no desire to 15 an y thing in the tex t o f th at rep o rt th at h elps us 16 g et into the m ining b u siness ... its objective is to 16 identify the source o f the talc being evaluated? 17 p ro duce a superior po w d er ... to reverse the presen t 17 A N o. It's ju st described as nine talc samples. 18 m ark et tren d w hich is aw ay from talc". 18 Q Can you tell us w hether or not the samples are 19 R ig h t? 19 industrial talc or cosm etic talc? 20 A That's w hat he states, yes. 20 A This report does not identify w hether they're 21 Q Right. 21 industrial or cosm etic, o r even if they are Johnson & 22 A That's w hat's w ritten, yes. 22 Johnson talc. 23 Q Okay. 23 Q In evaluating talc, and w e talked about this 24 And in 1969, the company doctor said that any 24 earlier today w hen w e were talking about M r Bill 25 use o f asbestos - any use o f talc if it had asbestos 25 Ashton, w ould there have been any reason for Johnson & 84 (Pages 1387 - 1390) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1391 Page 1393 1 Johnson to have an outside source evaluate a talc 1 A I do, yes, yes. 2 sam ple at the time period o f this report in 1977 that 2 Q W ould you look on the page where they have the 3 w a s n ot rela te d to a specific m in e from w hich Johnson & 3 su m m ary o f the m ineralogic com position o f the 18 4 Johnson w as sourcing its cosm etic talc? 4 B ritish consum er talcum products, and I'm going to hand 5 A W hat actually happened, and I rem em ber Bill 5 y o u m y copy o f th at so y o u do n 't have to look for 6 A shton w hen I m et w ith him m any tim es, is that over the 6 yours. 7 years he received talc samples from prospective m ines 7 Do you see that? 8 all over the w o rld from Asia, India, China, Latin 8 A Yes, I do, yeah. 9 Am erica, several in Europe, who were saying: please 9 Q Can you tell us whether or not the indicated 10 evaluate o u r talc; can w e o ffer y o u as o u r talc as an 10 m ineral references say fo r the am phiboles w hether those 11 alternative to w h a t yo u 're doing. 11 are asbestos o r n o t asbestos? 12 So in fact his shelf in his little cubicle 12 A N ow here does it actually state they are 13 h a d lots an d lo ts o f differen t sam ples o f talc th at had 13 asbestos. T h ere's a description o f trem olite, b u t it 14 b e en sent in, to tally unsolicited, b y p ro spective m ine 14 doesn't state w hether it's asbestos trem olite or not. 15 ow ners in m an y p a rts o f the w orld. 15 A nd likew ise for anthophyllite. It doesn't 16 So it w as typical that he w ould say: yeah, 16 state w hether o r not it's asbestos trem olite. 17 let's look at it. It do esn 't co st a great deal. L et's 17 Q It is very late in the day. Can you tell us 18 ju s t see w h a t the q u ality o f this talc is. 18 d o es the use o f the w o rd "trem olite" o r "anthophyllite" 19 So he w ould invariably send o ff -- if it 19 alone answ er the question for u s o f w hether or not that 20 looked w hite, then he w ould say: yeah, let's check it 20 is asbestos? 21 out, it could be o f use to us. 21 A It does not, no. 22 And they were just labeled w ith a number, A, 22 The m ajority o f trem olite that we find in the 23 B, C, 1 ,2 ,3 . 23 w orld, the vast m ajority is not asbestos tremolite. 24 B ut that's all w e have. It's all I've seen 24 Q In connection w ith that report, and you m ay set 25 at this point. It w as unknow n talc samples. 25 that down, sir, M r Panatier also asked you about a memo Page 1392 Page 1394 1 Q Now, in fairness, that particular report does 1 from D r Langer to D r Chalm ers that purports to explain 2 use the w ord "composite" as it relates at least to some 2 w hat was done in connection w ith that paper. 3 portion o f m aterials that were being evaluated. 3 D o you rem em ber those questions? 4 A Mmmhmm. 4 A Id o,yes,yes. 5 Q Does the use o f the term "composite" help you 5 Q A nd it makes reference to pressure put on D r 6 in any way to reach a conclusion about the source or 6 Pooley. 7 identity o f the materials that are being tested? 7 D o you recall those questions? 8 A N ot really. Y ou could have a composite sample 8 A Yes, I do, yes. 9 from more than one supplier. 9 Q O ther than D r Langer's m em o that talks about 10 For exam ple, if you've got tw o m anufacturers, 10 the w ithdraw al o f the paper, have you seen anything 11 tw o m ine ow n ers in a particu lar area, th ey co uld w ell 11 fro m D r P oo ley th at says th at D r P oo ley agrees or 12 sen d y o u a com posite from w h a t th ey h a d from their 12 disagrees w ith the representation by D r L anger 13 m ine. 13 concerning the handling o f the p aper a t the sem inar? 14 It's -- the problem w ith this report is it is 14 A N o, I've not seen any com m ent from D r Pooley. 15 n o t specific. It do esn 't give y o u th at lev el o f 15 Q Are you familiar with this particular issue, 16 inform ation that would, in m y view , give you an 16 and w ere you fam iliar at the tim e w ith the discussion 17 assurance th at yo u w ere lo o k in g a t a Jo h nson's cosm etic 17 ab o u t the presen tatio n o f the p ap er a n d the ultim ate 18 talc. It's n o t m en tio n ed anyw here. 18 w ithdraw al o f it by D rs Pooley and Langer? 19 Q M r Panatier also asked you about a document 19 A A t the time, I was not em ployed by Johnson & 20 num ber 266 w hich reflects to b e a draft -- it's poor 20 Johnson, but obviously I have since read part o f that 21 quality, but it says "Subject to being revision [sic] 21 100-odd thousand docum ents that there w as a dialogue 22 not to be quoted", and this is the document that was 22 betw een D r Pooley, or Professor Pooley and D r Langer 23 labeled as a draft article by both Drs Pooley and Dr 23 related to the w ithdraw al o f that paper. 24 Langer. 24 Q A nd based on your review o f those documents, 25 Do you rem em ber talking about that? 25 w hat is your understanding o f the reason why the paper 85 (Pages 1391 - 1394) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 was withdrawn? Page 1395 1 Page 1397 Q M r Panatier also asked you som e questions, 2 A M y understanding, having read that, is that 2 looking back at som e 1995 findings by M cCrone regarding 3 Professor Pooley wasn't happy w ith the w ay the paper 3 asbestos in some o f the talc. 4 was written and the conclusions that were being drawn 4 Do you recall those questions? 5 from it. H e did not w ant to be associated w ith it. 5 A I do, yes. 6 Q M r Panatier asked you some questions about 7 testing and the frequency o f testing and the ability to 6 (Reporter clarification) 7 Q I am going to hand back to you Exhibit num ber 8 test every piece o f talc that cam e out o f the mine. 8 234. 9 Do you rem em ber those questions? 9 Separate and apart from what M r Panatier has 10 A Yes, I do, yes. 10 on the flip-chart, w hat did M cC rone tell to a third 11 Q Can you tell us w hether or not it is an 11 p a rty in 1987 ab o u t its historical findings related to 12 app ropriate statistical m eth o d to do sam pling o f 12 asbestos in the talc th a t w as being m ined from W indsor 13 p ro d u ct -- w h e th er w e're talk in g a b o u t talc or 13 a n d u se d b y Johnson & Johnson? 14 som ething else -- in o rd er to determ ine the quality o f 14 A Yes, they looked at all their analyses o f 15 th at product? 15 asbestos ov er the p erio d 1971 onw ards to 1984, and th ey 16 A W ell, the point o f achieving w hat you're trying 16 sum m arized that by saying that: 17 to fin d is statistical relevance o r significance. 17 "Throughout this entire period I can only 18 Essentially, as w ith anything, the m ore tim es 18 recall tw o o c c a sio n s... [in] w hich som e suspicious 19 y o u test, y o u test a n d test and te s t again, th en the 19 m aterial w as detected. T he first involved possible 20 higher level o f surety you have to be able to say: this 20 chrysotile contam ination in an air sample and the 21 product is free from asbestos. 21 contam ination source w a s ... pin p o in ted to a 22 If you test once, you've got an assurance 22 deteriorating clutch in som e m echanical equipment". 23 level o f one. I f you test a hundred tim es, then you're 23 A nd the second was a novel one that was 24 a hundred tim es m ore assured o f the result that you've 24 w ritten up in the m edical literature --in the 25 got. 25 scientific literature, w hich w as indicated that there Page 1396 Page 1398 1 Q In connection w ith the sam pling that was done 1 w as no asbestos present. 2 by Johnson & Johnson to test its ore and the m aterial 2 Q A nd the sort o f bottom line sum m ary from 3 from the m ine, was the frequency sufficient from a 3 M cC rone concerning its conclusions about the ore it had 4 statistical standpoint to provide any level o f 4 been testing throughout that entire tim e period was 5 certainty regarding the quality o f the talc? 5 what? 6 A I w ould say yes a n d -- 6 A "... our opinion [has alw ays been that] and 7 Q Why? 7 continues to be ... [that in] 15 y ears o f closely 8 A - w ith the caveat that, over tim e, if you test 8 e x a m in in g ... pro d u ct [the pro d u ct is free from 9 once, you've got an assurance o f one. B ut you do that 9 asbestos]". 10 regularly over the year m any tim es and do it again the 10 Q D id Johnson & Johnson have any basis to 11 n ex t y e ar an d the n e x t year, a n d i f you 're finding 11 co nclude th at the level o f exposure to talc associated 12 resu lts th at m eet the requirem ents, th en y o u r level o f 12 w ith its cosm etic products w ere not associated w ith the 13 su rety is very, v e ry high. 13 risk o f d ev elopm ent o f m eso? 14 Q W hat w as the level o f surety o f Johnson & 14 A There is no evidence that talc products sold by 15 Jo h n so n in co nnection w ith the talc th at it w as 15 Jo h n so n & Johnson w ere associated w ith m esotheliom a. 16 receiving for use in its baby pow der and cosm etic 16 None. 17 p o w d er products? 17 Q Prior to the litigation that w e're here about, 18 A W ell, the level o f surety com es from 18 and som e other contem poraneous litigation, over the 19 u n d erstan d in g o f the m ine an d the m ine geology. So yo u 19 co urse o f tim e from 1894 to close to contem porary 20 start at that point w ith a historical record o f absence 20 times, has Johnson & Johnson had any experience 21 o f asbestos from the m ine sam ples. 21 concerning m esotheliom a and its products? 22 And then the regular quarterly audit o f the 22 A No, they have not. 23 m ine as you progress. You look at that data, add that 23 Q A t the end o f the day, have any o f the 24 to your pile, and then you add to the data pile by 24 questions M r Panatier has asked you changed your 25 taking results from every tw o-weekly samples. 25 opinion regarding the safety or purity o f Johnson & 86 (Pages 1395 - 1398) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1399 1 Jo h nson's p ro d u cts? 2 A N o. I'd go hom e and use Johnson's Baby Pow der Page 1401 1 Q Right? That has some cancer data from that 2 paper; correct? 3 tonight. I've no --no concerns. 3 A Yes. The '76 publication, it does - it does 4 M S FRO ST: I don't have any further questions 4 talk about m alignant neoplasms o f the esophagus, 5 for you, sir. I w ill pass you to the next one. 5 pleura, mesotheliom a. It m easures those: lung, larynx, 6 M R G A FFR EY : I don't have any further 7 questions. 6 stom ach, intestine. 7 It does m ention mesothelioma. 8 EXAM INATION: 8 Q Keep it on that page; okay? 9 BY M R PANATIER: 9 A Okay. 10 Q Ido. 10 Q That's in 1976. That's one paper? 11 All right, sir. Sir, you said that Johnson & 11 A Yes. 12 Jo h nson has no concern reg ard in g m esotheliom a for the 12 Q That's the m ortality paper; correct? 13 u sers o f its pow ders; right? 13 A Yes. 14 A That's m y opinion, yes. 14 Q Then there's a second paper four years later; 15 Q Johnson & Johnson has never surveyed its users 15 right? T he m orbidity paper; correct? 16 to see the disease incidence am o n g them ; correct? 16 A Can w e look at that? 17 A That w ould be correct, yes. 17 Q Y ou're looking at it right there. That's the 18 Q Johnson & Johnson -- certainly an indication o f 18 p rep ublication version. 19 w h eth er o r n o t Jo hnson's talcs can cause m eso w o u ld be 19 Actually, it m ight be easier to get the - 20 individuals w ho get m esotheliom a from using it and then 20 let's hop o ff the record. 21 su e Johnson & Johnson; correct? 21 (O ff the record at 6:55 pm ) 22 That w ould be an indication, w ouldn't it? 22 (On the record at 6:55 pm ) 23 A That would be an indication o f a dialogue or a 23 BY M R PANATIER: 24 discussion about the relationship. 24 Q Y ou have in your hands the second Rubino paper; 25 Q Okay. 25 right? Page 1400 Page 1402 1 Now, you mentioned, you painted it in a very 1 A Yes. 2 broad brash stroke, and said all o f Rubino's data w as 2 Q Okay. 3 available to the m edical comm unity. 3 A B u t this w as never published. 4 Do you recall that? 4 Q It w as published. 5 A The data was available in various publications, 5 A W here w as it published? 6 yes. 6 Q In the Society o f O ccupational and 7 Q W e know that's not true; right? W e know the 7 E nvironm ental H ealth Journal. 8 second publication has five categories o f increased 8 A Y es, this w as the -- I have -- I do recollect 9 cancer that never saw the light o f day; correct? 9 this. 10 A I believe it w as in the Rubino paper, was it 10 Q Okay. 11 not? 11 A T his w as presented as a paper at a sym posium 12 Q It was in the prepublication version o f the 12 Q Okay. 13 seco n d p ap er. T h e se co n d p ap er only re p o rte d o n lu n g 13 A Y es, it w as one o f several papers presented. 14 cancer; correct? 14 Q A n d rig h t u n d er it, okay, y o u hav e -- g et rid 15 A I'd need to look at that again. 15 o f that, th at is the o th er - y o u set this to the side. 16 Q Okay. I'm perfectly happy for you to do that. 16 A Yeah. Thank you. 17 A Okay. 17 Q H ere y o u go. T h at's th e p rep u b licatio n versio i 18 Q H ere's the prepublication version. 18 o f the docum ent there on yo u r left; correct? 19 A Yeah. 19 A It is a prepublication version o f a paper 20 Q H ere's the first version that's not 20 entitled M ortality and M orbidity in T alc M iners and 21 prepublication for that; right? 21 M illers in Italy, w h ich is the sam e title, yes. 22 A Okay. 22 Q T h at's right. 23 Q The paper you're looking at right now in front 24 o f you w as published in '76. 23 So you have the published version in your 24 right hand -- in your left hand, and you have the 25 A Yes. 25 prepublished version in your left hand; correct? 87 (Pages 1399 - 1402) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1403 1 A W e have a version -- a prepublication copy o f a 2 paper. Page 1405 1 So I can see w hy that m ay have dropped out, 2 certain im portant --you m ay consider them important -- 3 Q Right. 3 im portant areas o f discussion and debate. 4 W e already established that all o f the data 4 But in the publication that preceded this, 5 about the excess cancers do not appear in the published 5 the '76 paper --the '74 paper --he does look at 6 version; correct? 6 neoplasm s across the board, including mesothelioma. 7 A In the version that was presented as a lecture? 7 Q I'm going to ask you the question again. 8 Q Yes. 8 Sir, for the m orbidity paper that was either 9 A The 15-minute lecture in the Society. 9 presented or published -- 10 Yes, this was --this was --that was the 10 A Yes. 11 d ata th at w as presented. 11 Q --I'll give y o u w h ich ev er one yo u w ant; okay? 12 Q H old on a m inute. I'm going to hold this up 12 A Okay. 13 fo r th e cam era. 13 Q D id it contain the five categories o f increased 14 This is a 15-minute lecture? 14 cancer that w as in the prepublication version? Y es or 15 A W ell, or h alf an hour lecture. 15 no? 16 Q Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. 16 A N o, it w as a sim plified version. It did not. 17 This w as a --w hat w as it? A 15-minute 17 Q It did not? 18 lecture? A h alf-h o u r lecture? W h at w as it? 18 A Correct. 19 A It was given as a lecture to a professional 19 Q They didn't suggest that there w as any 20 society. 20 increased cancer in the paper that was either presented 21 Q Okay. 21 o r published; correct? 22 A In --I believe it was Edinburgh. 22 A Correct. 23 Q A nd w hen it w as given, sir, did it contain all 23 Q Okay. Y ou can set that aside. 24 o f the cancer data for the increased cancers o f the 24 Y ou said the ENV paper, w hich you have there, 25 five categories that the prepublication version 25 right, w hich I w rote on the board all o f the fibrous Page 1404 Page 1406 1 contains? 1 trem olite that was found there in 1977, you said that 2 A No, it did not. 2 c o u ld b e A shton w anting to test som ebody else's talc; 3 Q Okay. Y ou can set that aside, please, sir. 3 right? 4 A Yes. 4 A Yeah, I don't know w hose talc this is. This 5 Q Are you aware o f a published version o f the 5 doesn't describe w hose talc this is, w hich m ine it's 6 second Rubino paper that does include the increased 6 from. 7 incidence o f the five cancer categories? 7 It basically doesn't have enough data to be 8 A The paper that follow ed the first Rubino paper 8 able to say: yeah, I feel confident in saying this is 9 w as by R ubino's colleagues, D r Coggiola, in 2003. 9 yes or no Johnson's Baby. 10 That was an update o f the data that was 10 Q W ell - 11 available. 11 A There's no evidence here. 12 Q So you're saying that if w e w ant the data that 12 Q I f it's y o u r o w n talc, y o u d o n 't have to label 13 w a s w ritten th ere in --o f five in creased categories o f 13 it th at it's yo u r ow n talc, do you? 14 cancer from 1979, w e have to go to 2003? 14 A W hen you send a sam ple o ff to - 15 A W ell, all w e've got is w hat w e've got. 15 Q Can you ju st have to answer the question? 16 W e'v e g o t tw o papers, o r th ree pap ers, a n d w e 16 A No. 17 h av e a prep u b licatio n version o f a paper. 17 Q I f it's y o u r ow n talc, y o u d o n't have to list 18 Now, I --you know, I cannot be specific as 18 th a t it's y o u r ow n talc; right? 19 to w hy certain lines w ere rem oved from the half-hour, 19 A Y o u do n 't. Y o u d o n't have to, b u t y o u don't 20 one-hour lecture. They obviously were. 20 need to do so either. It's a choice. 21 Certainly, you know, I've given sym posia 21 Q Okay. All right. 22 talks and very often you're going to give it to a group 22 N ext question. So you --w e were talking 23 who have got expertise or experience in different 23 about the unpublished Pooley paper. Before you can 24 areas. It's not unusual to focus dow n on the m ain 24 have trem olite asbestos, you have to have trem olite the 25 bullet points. 25 m ineral; right? 88 (Pages 1403 - 1406) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 A Correct. Page 1407 Page 1409 1 asbestos, in fact twice as m uch in the cosmetic as they 2 Q And before you can have anthophyllite asbestos, 2 did in the industrial? 3 you have to have anthophyllite the m ineral; right? 3 A T hey did not. 4 A Yes. 4 Q Did they m ention this one? Now, this one was 5 Q So by having the m ineral, you're h a lf w ay 5 industrial, but did they m ention that they found 6 there, but you've got to get fibers; right? 6 chrysotile fibers at .006 per cent in an industrial 7 A Correct. 7 sample? 8 Q Okay. 8 A M y understanding is they are only discussing 9 You said your recollection o f the reason why 9 cosm etic grade talc. 10 the Pooley paper w as w ithdraw n w as because Pooley 10 Q To Arm strong W orld Industries? 11 w a sn 't satisfied w ith h o w th e p a p er w a s b ein g w ritten? 11 A Y eah. I m ean, this doesn't m ake it clear 12 A Yes. 12 w hether it's asbestos in cosm etic or industrial. 13 Q H e w as the lead author; right? 13 Q So M cCrone doesn't m ention this one either; 14 A He was on a draft, yes, but not --the paper 14 right? 15 n e v er got to the stage o f b ein g ag reed to a fo rm at that 15 A No. 16 c o u ld b e published. 16 Q Okay. 17 Q The only copy w e have, he's the lead author; 17 Let's see here. I don't rem em ber all the 18 rig ht? 18 ones th a t M cC rone. 19 A H e's the lead author -- 19 This one is. 4.24.74, the evaluation o f 20 Q Okay. 20 A rgonaut w here they found chrysotile. They didn't 21 A - and that was in the form as a presentation 21 m ention that, did they? 22 to a symposium. 22 A They did not. 23 Q And, lastly, M s Frost asked you to reread the 23 Q They didn't m ention the S5888 sam ple that was 24 letter from M cCrone w here they said from 1971 to 1984 24 chrysotile, did they? 25 they only had tw o occasions w here there w as asbestos in 25 A T hey did not. Page 1408 Page 1410 1 talc. 1 Q L et's see here ... 2 One was they discovered that there was a 2 T h ey d id n 't m en tio n finding trem olite in 108 3 clutch that w as disintegrating in the m achine; right? 3 and 109T in O ctober o f '72, did they? 4 A Yes. 4 A No, but it could well have been non-asbestos 5 Q A nd another one, they ju st said was w ritten up 5 tremolite. 6 som ewhere, b ut they don't say w hat it was; right? 6 Q I hear w hat you're saying. 7 A They don't, no. 7 T hey didn't talk about finding chrysotile in 8 Q So really that means really no occasions o f 8 the additive to m edicated pow der in Septem ber o f '71; 9 asbestos in talc; right? 9 right? 10 A It does, yes. 10 A N ot in this, because there is a separate note 11 Q Okay. 11 I've seen th a t chrysotile c o u ld b e co n fu sed w ith the 12 So let's go to --so the ones I've w ritten 12 free flow agent, sodium sesqui citrate, that w as added 13 d o w n here, 1975, N o v em b er 5 ,1 9 7 5 , th at w a s M cC rone; 13 to h elp th e talc n o t stick in th e bottle. 14 correct? 14 Q Y ou said that, too. 15 A Correct. 15 The bottom line is M cC rone did not convey all 16 Q That's an occasion o f fibers o f asbestos they 16 o f the tim es they had found asbestos, even in cosm etic 17 found; right? 17 talc, in that letter; correct? 18 A That's w hat you've w ritten, yes. 18 A That letter states that they did not find 19 Q D id they put that in the letter? 19 asbestos in cosm etic talc over a 15 y ear period. 20 A That's w hat is written. 20 Q In their ow n words, they did; correct? 21 Q Did they put that in the letter w here they said 21 A But the letter states that they did not. 22 they'd only had those tw o occasions; right? 22 Q B ut in their own words --these are their 23 A In their overall sum m ary o ver 15 years, they 23 words, because I w anted to m ake sure that I did this 24 did not m ention that. 24 straightforward; okay? 25 Q Did they m ention this one where they confirm ed 25 In their ow n w ords, they did find asbestos in 89 (Pages 1407 -1410) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1411 Page 1413 1 talc? 1 w hether or not w e could tell if these were cosmetic or 2 A On the - the w ay you've written it on those 2 not. 3 boards, they claim - yes, that is what is written. 3 HC: cosm etic; correct? 4 Q Those quotes, right, remember you and I? 4 A W ithout seeing the tabulation to confirm that, 5 A Yeah, you've written that, yes. 5 it's a guestim ate. 6 Q Those were their words; right? 6 Q You and I talked about this. W e saw the 7 A Yes, that's your ~ that's the words you've 7 designations that W indsor M ineral used. HC was 8 written, yes. 8 cosmetic. W indsor w as W indsor Industrial and G was 9 Q That they wrote for me to write? 9 Gassetts. 10 A That's w hat --that's w hat you've written, yes. 10 D o you rem em ber that? 11 M R PANATIER: Pass the witness. 11 A I do rem em ber that, yes. 12 EX A M IN A TIO N : 12 Q They said this w as the cosmetic; correct? HC? 13 B Y M S FRO ST: 13 A I'll take your w ord for it, but I cannot 14 Q One last question: in connection with the 14 rem em ber w hether that is a definition for the cosm etic 15 letter from M cC rone in 1987, it is specific ab o u t the 15 grade. 16 W indsor m ine, is it not? 16 M R PANATIER: N o furthers questions. 17 A It is, yes. 17 Anybody on the phone? 18 Q A nd it is specific about cosm etic talc, or is 18 (O ff the record at 7:07 pm) 19 it? 19 (O n the record at 7:08 pm ) 20 A It doesn't m ention cosm etic talc. A t least if 20 M S FROST: To the extent that they are J& J 21 it does, I can't see it. 21 B ates stam ped docum ents that w e produced to you, sam e 22 Q Okay. 22 stipulations as yesterday. 23 But talc from the W indsor mine would have 23 A s it relates to the reading o f the 24 been Grade 66? 24 transcript, the w itness w ill w ant to read the 25 A Yes, it would, yes. 25 transcript. Page 1412 Page 1414 1 Q So that w ould be cosm etic talc? 1 M R PANATIER: C an we stipulate to an unread 2 A Yes, it would, yes. 2 and signed version to be used in motion practice if 3 Q A nd M r Panatier just asked you about a whole 3 necessary? 4 series o f various reports. 4 M S KAGAN: W e did that with the rough. 5 O f those reports - those previous reports, 5 M R PA N A TIER: W e're already doing it w ith the 6 can w e tell w hether or not those evaluations were from 6 rough, but I figured ~ 7 the W indsor m ine, from one o f the other m ines in 7 M S FROST: W e can make that agreement. 8 Verm ont, or not? 8 M R PANATIER: Yeah. Okay. 9 A W e cannot. 9 (W hereupon the deposition concluded at 7:09 pm) 10 Q Can w e tell from those results whether the 10 11 fin dings th ey are reco rd in g are o f cosm etic talc o r o f 11 12 in d ustrial talc? 12 13 A W e cannot. That's not specified in the 13 14 reports. 14 15 I f it states G rade 66, it's cosm etic talc. 15 16 Q In connection w ith the findings that relate to 16 17 trem olite, can w e n ecessarily tell w h eth er those are 17 18 asb estos o r non-asbestos? 18 19 A That's not defined. It could be asbestos. 19 20 M ore likely non-asbestos. 20 21 M S FRO ST: I don't have any further 21 22 questions. 22 23 EXAM INATION: 23 24 BY M R PANATIER: 24 25 Q Let's ju st m ake sure: M s Frost ju st asked you 25 90 (Pages 1411 -1414) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1415 1 INDEX 1 2 Page 2 3 W ITNESS: D R JO H N HO PKINS (Recalled) 106< 3 4 Exam ination by M S FROST 1066 4 5 Exam ination by M R GAFFREY 1242 5 6 Exam ination by M R PANATIER 1250 6 7 Exam ination by M S FROST 1389 7 8 Exam ination by M R PANATIER 1399 8 9 Exam ination by M S FROST 1411 9 10 E xam ination b y M R PA N A T IE R 1412 10 11 11 12 EXHIBITS 12 13 13 14 E xhibit D escription Page 14 15 N o. 15 16 220 L etter H ills (W M I) to P alen ik 16 17 (M cCrone) 17 18 JNJ000065646 1101 18 19 221 L ist o f Sam ples to M cC ro n e from 19 20 Hills (W M I) 20 21 JNJ000065647 1101 21 22 222 Im ages o f talc - "D -507" 22 23 N o Bates 1114 23 24 24 25 25 Page 1417 Exhibit Description Page No. 230 W ebsite from FDA Re Talc No Bates 1150 231 Letter N ashed (J&J) to Schaffner (FDA) Re Johnson's Baby Powder JNJMX68 5215 1154 232 Letter Pooley to Shelly (J&J) Re examination o f Italian JNJAZ55 3645 1157 233 Pooley Report o f the Examination O f Rock Samples from the Vermont M ine JNJMX68 14190 1161 234 Letter Stewart (M cCrone) to Benninger (Armstrong) cc M iller (W indsor) and M illette (M cCrone) Re W indsor Minerals Inc JNJMX68 00001... ? 1163 235 J& J M aterial Analysis Report W indsor 66 Talc JNJM X68_000016...? 1169 236 J&J W orldwide 1975 Talc Monitoring Program JNJNL61 32876 1172 Page 1416 Page 1418 1 Exhibit D escription Page 1 Exhibit D escription Page 2 No. 2 No. 3 223 W ebsite Select C om m ittee on G RA S 3 237 M em o o f M eeting betw een FR A and 4 S u b sta n c e s 4 C T FA and J& J R e A sbestos in Cosm etic^ 5 N o Bates 1118 5 C ontaining Talc, Such as D usting 6 224 J& J R aw M aterial Specification for 6 Pow ders and Face Pow ders 7 Talc Pow dered 7 N o Bates 8 JN J000370144 1121 8 A ppears to be FO IA 1174 9 225 Three T ypes o f C om m ercial A sbestos 9 238 L etter to E ditor from Lew in 10 Im ages. 11 N o B ates 1124 12 2 2 6 L e tte r L e e (J & J ) to F ra n k (J& J) 10 R e J& J Finding 11 JNJM X68_4614 1178 12 239 L ew in R eport (m issing cover page) 13 R e W indsor 66 Talc Specification 13 N o Bates 1180 14 - Proposed A sbestos R equirem ent 14 240 Sum m ary and C om m ents on A nalysis 15 JN J000252240 1133 15 F or A sbestos in C osm etic Talc 16 227 T ools for S tate-of-the-A rt 16 Products by Eierm ann (FDA) 17 Testing 1974-1995 im ages o f 17 JN JNL61_18340 1183 18 Testing equipm ent 18 241 "D octor A dm its H e M ay H ave 19 N o Bates 1138 20 2 2 8 W e b s ite U S P - A b o u t U S P 21 N o Bates 1146 22 2 2 9 R e v is io n B u lle tin T a lc U S P 19 B een M istaken" 20 JN J000343318 1186 21 242 N Y T im es "A sbestos F ound in 22 T en Pow ders" 23 M ethod 23 N o Bates 1188 24 N o Bates 1148 24 25 25 91 (Pages 1415 -1 4 1 8 ) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. A V e r ite x t C o m p a n y 718-983-1234 1 Exhibit D escription 2 No. Page 1419 Page 1 Exhibit Description 2 No. Page 1421 Page 3 243 E ierm ann and Y ates Tabulated 3 253 CTFA Memo Re NTP 4 R esults o f D C S T 's A nalyses for 4 Pltf_IM ERY S_00041221 5 A sbestos M inerals in Lew in 5 IMERYS-A 0012865 1259 6 Field A ctivity Surveillance 6 254 Email from Zezinski Re NTP 7 N o Bates 1189 7 "Fine Victory" "Dodged Bullet" 8 244 M em o o f M eeting at M t. Sinai btw n 8 Pltf_IM ERYS_00077020 9 L anger and FD A R e 10 Sam ples 9 IMERYS 303828 1262 10 HHS00000018 11 2 4 5 . D o u ille t L e tte r re s p o n s e to 12 C itizens Petition R e A sbestos 1191 10 255 L etter from D esert M inerals (JM ) 11 To Ashton Re FDA Talc Regulation 12 For Food; 13 W arning 13 Letter from Colorado School Mines 14 N o Bates 14 To JM 15 FO IA 1193 15 JN JN L 61J6536; 16 246 W ergeland, et al. "C ause-specific 16 JNJAZ55 6145 1272 17 M ortality and C ancer M orbidity in 17 256 M em o o f M eeting btw n CTFA (Estrin) 18 390 M ale W orkers E xposed to H igh 18 W ith FDA Re Lewin 19 P urity T alc, a six-decade follow -up" 19 HHS 65 1287 20 N o Bates 1235 21 247 W ergeland, et al. "M orbidity and 20 257 1973 L ew in W IT H W E ISSL ER C O V ER 21 LETTER 22 M ortality in Talc-Exposed W orkers" 22 N o Bates 1290 23 N o Bates 1236 23 24 24 25 25 Page 1420 Page 1422 1 Exhibit Description Page 1 Exhibit D escription Page 2 No. 2 No. 3 248 Leodolter, et al. "A Cohort M ortality 3 258 Q uality A ssurance Testing o f W indsor 4 And Nested Case-control Study o f French 4 66 T alc and Johnson's B aby P ow der 5 And Austrian Talc Workers" 5 Form ula 499 6 N o B ates 1234 6 JNJM X68_3587 1293 7 249 Coggiola, et al. "An Update o f a 7 259 J& J M em o "The M t Sinai Sam ples Are 8 M ortality Study o f T alc M iners and 8 O ld" 9 M illers in Italy" 9 JNJM X68 9855 1297 10 No Bates 1228 10 260 J& J M em o "Telephone C onversation 11 250 Piro, et al. "M ortality o f Talc 11 W ith F.D . Pooley" 12 M iners and M illers from V al Chisone 12 JNJM X68_17760 1299 13 N orthern Italy" 13 261 S tim uli to R e v isio n P rocess for 14 N o Bates 1230 14 USP 15 251 Selevan, D em ent, et al. "M ortality 15 N o Bates 1312 16 Patterns Among Miners and M illers o f 16 262 M cC rone to C yprus re C W M 90-28, 17 Non-Asbestosform Tale: Preliminary 17 9 0 -2 9 ,9 0 -3 0 18 Report" 18 JNJM X68_12851 1329 19 No Bates 1232 19 263 H TR I R esearch Institute to F D A 20 252 Letter Ferry to Smith (W CD) 20 JN JN L 61_20261 1341 21 Re Italian to J&J 21 264 A sbestos O ccurrence in Talc Control 22 CF-B ALL-5 1250 22 W orldw ide 23 (Produced by W CD in Kaenzig) 23 JNJNL61 16002 1345 24 24 265 EM V R eport to J& J 25 25 JN JM X 68 8981 1347 92 (Pages 1419 - 1422) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 Exhibit D escription Page 1423 Page 1 Exhibit Description Page 1425 Page 2 No. 2 No. 3 266 P ooley, R ohl, L anger, et al. paper 3 44 Report from Grieger (McCrone) 4 "M ineralogy and C hem istry o f B ritish 4 "from R. Rollo's files" 5 Talc and C onsum er Talcum Products" 5 Re Italian, Medicated 6 JNJAZ55 4614 1356 6 Grantham Talc 7 267 L etter from L anger to Chalm ers R e 7 Bates JNJAZ55 8893 1084 8 T he O ngoing T alc Study in the 8 55 M emo enclosing Pooley Report 9 Environm ental Sciences L aboratory 9 "An Examination o f Italian M ine 10 N o Bates 1361 10 Samples and Relevant Powders" 11 A rchives M ount Sinai 11 Bates JNJAZ55 212 12 268 L etter from J& J to consum er 12 Bates JNJAZ55 87 1086 13 Sorensen bcc W agner and Sem ple 13 56 M em o to File from N ashed 14 R esponding to C oncern R e A sbestos 14 Re Shower to Shower/Asbestos 15 In Johnson's B aby Pow der 15 FDA M eeting, Sept 21, 1972 16 JN JA Z 55_13489 1365 16 Bates JNJAZ55 380 1090 17 2 6 9 E m a il fro m L e m m o (J & J ) R e G lo b a l 17 63 L etter from Frank (J& J) to Lee 18 Talc Specification: Lim its o f Q uartz 18 (J&J) Re Audit Testing o f W indsor 19 (free crystalline silica)/PC PC 19 66 Talc for Asbestos 20 M eeting in D C 20 Bates JN JM X 6 8 J 8545 1094 21 JNJNL61 103603 1 3 7 4 21 69 C onfidential N ew R eagent System s 22 270 Plaintiffs additional pages o f 22 Plant Trial at W indsor M inerals Inc 23 F lip -c h a rt 23 Bates JNJMX68 4996; 5032; 5037 1095 24 N o Bates 24 25 25 Page 1424 Page 1426 1 Exhibit Description Page 1 Exhibit D escription Page 2 No. 2 No. 3 271 D efendant flip-chart 3 81 R ep o rt G rieger (M cC rone) to 4 4 M iller (W M I) re H am m ondsville 5 5 T alc 6 PREVIOUSLY M ARKED EXHIBITS 6 Bates JN JM X 68 19934 1097 7 7 83 M em o by R ussell (J& J) Procedure 8 Exhibit Description Page 8 For Identification and 9 No. 9 Q uantification o f A m phibole 10 17 L etter from Byers (U S P ublic 10 Particles in J& J T alcs U sing 11 Health Service) to Ashe (State 11 O ptical M ineralogical M icroscopy 12 O f VT Dept Public Health) 12 Bates JN JN L61_492 1098 13 Re mineral samples in VT 13 84 R e p o rt M ille tte (M cC ro n e ) to 14 Bates JNJMX68 17827 1075 14 L aPierre (W M I) R e A nalysis o f 15 22 L etter from Sm ith (J& J) to 15 Seven Talc Sam ples for A sbestos 16 Tangel Re Rome, Italy 16 M ineral C ontent by TEM 17 M arch 5,1959 trip 17 Bates JN JM X 68 13019 110C 18 Bates JNJAZ55 1114 1077 18 85 L etter from S chm idt (J& J) to 19 36 C olorado School o f M ines 19 M olnar to M iller R e W indsor 20 Research Institute Report 20 M inerals R aw Talc Subm issions 21 Geology and Ore Reserves 21 N ovem ber 1986 to January 1987 22 Bates JNJAZ55 15127 1080 22 Bates JN JA Z55 8 177 1105 23 41 L etter from N ashed (J& J) to 23 24 Foster Re Talc/Asbestos 24 25 Bates JNJMX68_4646 1082 25 93 (Pages 1423 - 1426) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 Page 1427 1 Exhibit Description 2 No. Page 3 155 M em o Zeitz to M iller of W indsor 4 M inerals re codes for industrial vs 5 Cosmetic VT 6 JNJMX68 2659 1106 7 162 J4-1 8 JNJNL61_53222 1140 Page 1429 1 CERTIFICATE OF DEPONENT 2 3 I, JO H N HO PK IN S, hereby certify that I have read the foregoing pages, num bered 1 through 356, o f m y 4 deposition o f testim ony taken in these proceedings on Friday, A ugust 18, 2018, and, w ith the exception o f 5 the changes listed on the next page and/or corrections, if any, find them to be a true and 6 accurate transcription thereof. 9 188 M em o Caneer (Colorado School o f Mines) 7 10 To Ashton (J&J) Re M eeting with 8 11 Bowling Green Geological Staff 12 JNJAZ55_1871 1199 13 189 C onfidential Talc - U K W ork Status 14 1.6.73, IW Sloan 9 10 11 Signed: ............................ 12 N am e: JO H N H O P K IN S 13 D ate: ............................ 15 JNJAZ55_5084 1204 14 16 192 M em o H ildick-Sm ith (J& J) to 15 17 Petterson (J&J) Re Epidemiological 16 18 Study o f Italian Talc M ine 17 19 JN JAZ55J583 1214 18 20 193 M em o H ildick-Sm ith (J& J) to 19 21 Petterson (J&J) Re Epidemiological 20 21 22 Study o f the Cause o f D eath in 22 23 Italian Talc M iners 23 24 JNJAZ55 1607 1216 24 25 25 Page 1428 Page 1430 1 Exhibit D escription 2 No. Page 1 2 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 3 197 M em o A shton (J& J) to H ildick- 3 I, D EIR D R A JO RD A N , an A ccredited C ourt Reporter, 4 Sm ith (J& J) R e Italian Talc 4 hereby certify that the testim ony o f the witness, JOHN 5 Studies V isit to P ro f R ubino 6 U niversity o f Turin, Italy 5 HOPKINS, in the foregoing transcript taken on Friday, 6 A ugust 18, 2017, w as recorded by m e in m achine 7 8 202 JNJAZ55 1096 1217 Rubino, M ortality and M orbidity 7 shorthand and w as thereafter transcribed by me; and 8 that the foregoing transcript is a true and accurate 9 10 11 12 2 0 7 A m ong T alc M iners and M illers in Italy JN JN L6153191 1223 R ubino, M ortality and M orbidity 9 verbatim record o f the said testimony. 10 11 12 I fu rth er certify th at I am n o t a relative, em ployee, 13 A m ong Talc M iners and M illers in 13 counsel o r financially in volved w ith any o f the 14 Italy 14 parties to the w ithin cause, nor am I an em ployee or 15 N o B ates 1222 15 relative o f any counsel for the parties, no r am I in 16 16 any w ay interested in the outcom e o f the w ithin cause. 17 17 18 18 19 19 Signed: ............................ 20 20 N am e: D E IR D R A JO R D A N 21 21 D ate: ............................ 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 94 (Pages 1427 - 1430) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 ERRATA SHEET Priority-One Court Reporting/Veritext 2 718-983-1234 ASSIGNMENT NO. Pl-2684109 3 CASE NAME; Herford, Verdolotti, Teuscher & Etheridge v. Asbestos/Johnson & Johnson DATE OF DEPOSITION: 8/18/2017 4 WITNESS' NAME: Dr. John Hopkins Vol 4 5 PAGE/LINE(SV CHANGE REASON 6 / /_______ / i /________________ / 77 /________________ / 7 /________________ / / /_______ / / J____________ / 9 / /_______ ! / /_______ ! 10 / /_______ ! / /_______ ! n i /________________ ! / /________________ i 12 / /_______ / 7_______ i________________ ! 13 7 /________________ ! 7 /________________ / 14 / /_______ ! 7 /________________ i 15 /___/_________ / / /________________ i 16 / /_______ / / /_______ ! 17 / /_______ ! / _ _ _ / _______________ ! / /_______ ! 18 / 7 19 i________________ i i________________ / 20 Dr. John Hopkins Vol 4 21 (Notary not required in California) SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO 22 BEFORE ME THIS DAY OF______________, 2017. 23 24 NOTARY PUBLIC 25 MY COMMISSION EXPIRES. Page 1431 95 (Page 1431) Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 2 3 I, DEIRPRA JORDAN, an Accredited Court Reporter, 4 hereby certify that the testimony of the witness, JOHN 5 HOPKINS, in the foregoing transcript taken on Friday, 6 August 18, 2017, was recorded by me in machine 7 shorthand and was thereafter transcribed by m e ; and 8 that the foregoing transcript is a true and accurate 9 verbatim record of the said testimony. 10 11 12 I further certify that I am not a relative, employee, 13 counsel or financially involved with any of the 14 parties to the within cause, nor dm I an employee or 15 relative of any counsel for the parties, nor am I in 15 any way interested in the outcome of the within cause 17 18 19 20 21 Date: 22 23 24 25 3Oth August 2017 , p [&-1] Page 1 _________ & _________ & 1058:16 1059:10 1060:10 1061:9 1062:8,12 1062:13,17,18 1063:9,14,19,23 1064:3,6,7,10,12 1065:3,7,11 1066:25 1067:2,5 1067:12,24 1068:11 1069:3,12 1069:13 1071:9 1074:8,8,17 1076:19,21 1077:7 1077:21 1078:13 1078:23 1079:15 1080:15 1081:1,17 1082:13,14 1086:2 1086:11 1087:13 1088:14 1090:18 1091:1,6,23 1094:4 1095:4 1098:24 1105:13 1107:5,8 1108:14 1108:15,18 1109:10 1111:23 1112:22 1119:4,18 1119:23 1120:21 1121:13 1124:1 1125:17,20,23 1126:16 1127:15 1128:7,20,22 1129:17,20 1130:11,17 1131:4 1131:15,20 1132:9 1132:22 1133:5,6 1133:12 1134:8 1136:22 1137:3,7 1137:12 1140:5,25 1141:8,12 1142:1 1143:3,6 1144:22 1145:1,13 1147:5 1147:9 1149:4,9 1149:25 1150:1,9 1150:15 1151:19 1151:22,25 1152:4 1152:21 1153:16 1153:18,23 1154:13,17,21 1155:3,14,24 1156:4,10,14,24 1157:4,25 1160:13 1160:18 1163:5,9 1165:8 1167:3,8 1170:4,23 1171:6 1172:6,24 1174:1 1174:15,16,19 1175:4,12,15,21 1176:20,23 1177:1 1179:5 1181:16,19 1181:25 1182:19 1183:5 1185:9,10 1185:16 1189:1,4 1189:5,23 1190:2 1191:24 1192:1 1197:17,20,25 1198:14 1200:5 1206:6 1207:1,8 1210:14,21 1212:7 1212:24 1216:13 1216:15 1224:6 1227:1 1233:16 1237:24 1238:4,15 1238:18 1239:1,19 1240:24 1241:17 1243:1,6,8,10 1244:12,13,20 1245:3,4,5,12,13 1245:14 1246:6,15 1246:20,21 1247:13 1248:7,18 1248:22,23 1249:6 1249:7 1250:3,4,6 1251:1,4,9 1252:2 1252:22,23 1253:1 1255:6 1260:13 1264:3,3,7,11,16 1264:23,24 1265:1 1265:9,15,16,18 1265:22,25 1266:2 1266:7 1267:6,24 1269:2,17 1270:3 1270:21 1271:21 1271:25 1273:16 1274:3,19 1277:14 1283:11 1284:2 1286:18 1296:22 1297:3 1301:7 1303:16 1309:5 1310:4 1313:2 1314:23 1322:14 1323:1,3 1327:23 1328:7,16 1332:20 1334:1 1335:8,10 1337:3,4,17,19 1341:4,16 1347:6 1347:13,14,15,17 1347:18 1348:5,12 1355:1,2 1356:10 1356:17 1364:18 1365:12 1366:22 1369:10,17 1370:20 1371:3 1372:17,19 1373:1 1373:3,6,15,19,22 1374:1 1377:6 1379:25 1380:10 1381:12 1383:16 1385:2,3,6,10,23 1386:4,10,20,25 1388:9,13 1389:11 1390:21,25 1391:3 1394:19 1396:2,14 1397:13 1398:10 1398:15,20,25 1399:11,15,18,21 1431:3,3________ ______________0 _____________ 0.2 1184:11 0.5 1196:6 1326:25 1375:23 00000 1112:1 1124:10 1158:17 1246:101298:1,11 1298:17 1360:9,13 1360:15,25 1361:3 1364:16,18 1369:2 0000021 1153:7 00001 1417:19 000016 1417:22 00041221 1421:4 00077020 1421:8 001 1370:21 1371:5 0012865 1421:5 006 1409:6 01 1370:23 1371:5 021 1153:8 04 1139:17 07932-1047 1064:4 08903 1062:19 0932-17 1059:6 _____________ 1 _____________ 1 1091:5 1118:16 1148:23,25 1149:1 1149:11 1183:12 1245:23 1262:18 1268:18 1285:20 1288:25,25 1291:7 1314:20 1317:18 1319:8 1323:25 1331:7,13 1332:3 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [1 -150] 1332:4,23 1333:4 1333:17 1348:6 1349:1 1358:10 1365:11 1370:25 1387:23 1391:23 1429:3 1.000 1306:14 1,100 1252:5,22 1,166 1231:2 1,500 1353:13 1,722 1231:1 1,795 1229:3 1.5 1331:2 1333:3 1.6.73 1427:14 1/3 1387:19 10 1181:10 1184:5 1213:8 1259:10 1293:8,10 1304:4 1352:2,6 1419:9 100 1064:23 1065:8 1203:21 1249:24 1292:18 1394:21 10005 1064:23 10022 1063:5 103603 1423:21 1066 1415:3,4 107 1282:22 107.000 1278:13 1280:7 1075 1424:14 1077 1424:18 108 1371:1 1410:2 1080 1424:22 1082 1424:25 1084 1425:7 1086 1425:12 1090 1425:16 1094 1425:20 1095 1425:23 1096 1428:7 1097 1426:6 1098 1426:12 109t 1371:1 1410:3 10:30 1086:6 10:33 1086:7 11 1085:6 1174:10 1175:6,8 1179:9 1276:5 1277:25 1278:5 1100 1252:2 1426:17 1101 1415:18. 1105 1426:22 1106 1427:6 1114 1415:23 1424:18 1118 1416:5 1121 1416:8 1124 1416:11 1133 1416:15 1138 1416:19 1140 1427:8 1146 1416:21 1148 1416:24 1150 1417:4 1152 1063:21 1154 1417:7 1157 1417:10 1161 1417:14 1163 1417:19 1169 1417:22 1172 1417:25 1174 1418:8 1178 1418:11 1180 1418:13 1183 1418:17 1186 1418:20 1188 1418:23 1189 1419:7 1191 1419:10 1193 1419:15 1199 1427:12 11:05 1108:8 11:12 1108:9 11th 1063:4 12 1214:12 1216:13 1249:6 137]1:9 1372:22 1384:15 1204 1427:15 1214 1427:19 1216 1427:24 1217 1428:7 1222 1428:15 1223 1428:11 1228 1420:10 123 1065:4 1230 1420:14 1232 1420:19 1234 1420:6 1235 1419:20 1236 1419:23 1242 1415:5 1250 1415:6 1420:22 1259 1421:5 1262 1421:9 1272 1421:16 12851 1422:18 1287 1421:19 1290 1421:22 1293 1422:6 1297 1422:9 1299 1422:12 12:02 1142:21 12:12 1142:22 12:28 1154:8 12:58 1154:9 Page 2 13 1261:7 13019 1426:17 131 1181:19 1182:6,12,13,15 1312 1422:15 132 1182:13 1329 1422:18 1339 1064:13 1341 1422:20 1345 1422:23 1347 1422:25 13489 1423:16 1356 1423:6 1361 1423:10 1365 1423:16 1374 1423:21 138 1182:6 1389 1415:7 1399 1415:8 14 1106:22 1123:1 1216:6,12 1261:7 1288:19 1289:19 1291:4 1351:19 1352:4 140 1182:13,15 141 1246:21 1247:14 1248:7,17 1411 1415:9 1412 1415:10 14190 1417:14 15 1071:12 1165:21 1167:1,7 1288:6,19 1289:20 1291:4 1332:3 1351:19 1352:4 1398:7 1403:9,14 1403:17 1408:23 1410:19 15,000 1353:13 150 1308:1,6 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - 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A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [1984 - 236] Page 4 1984 1110:7 1397:15 1407:24 1986 1105:21 1209:8,12 1324:19 1327:17 1426:21 1987 1105:21 1106:13 1164:12 1164:21 1165:22 1397:11 1411:15 1426:21 1990 1235:14 1329:12 1990s 1243:13 19934 1426:6 1994 1067:9 1210:24 1211:15 1211:22,23 1995 1229:4 1397:2 1:17 1168:9 1:18 1168:10 lh q 1058:17 2 2 1148:23 1149:8 1149:11 1156:18 1179:8 1181:19 1184:19 1202:10 1214:6,9 1216:10 1245:23 1262:14 1285:12,20 1290:13 1291:7 1328:3 1371:1 1378:19 1391:23 2,000 1237:19 1338:18 20 1070:20 1071:6 1071:12 1072:4 1097:8 1099:14 1237:20 1238:13 1255:4,12 1299:11 1304:4 1330:24 1331:13 1333:3 1342:10 1344:3,21 1353:6 20,000 1343:18 200 1065:8 1184:22 1189:25 1190:1 1218:6 1281:18 1381:21 2000 1069:12,14 1069:17 1173:13 1210:13,18 1252:16 1259:4,10 20005 1063:21 2001 1262:14 2002 1234:10 2003 1112:19,20 1128:25 1228:14 1228:20,25 1229:1 1229:7 1230:6,9 1231:10 1404:9,14 2004 1378:18 2009 1139:16 1150:18 1151:20 1152:6 1154:12 1208:24 1318:18 1320:16 1374:24 2009/2010 1154:16 2010 1151:20 1152:6 1154:12 1208:24 2011 1069:15 1212:8 1236:25 2013 1230:14 1231:1 2017 1058:12 1066:4 1230:14,19 1231:12 1236:16 1430:6 1431:22 2018 1429:4 202 1222:25 1223:22,23,25 1225:20 1428:8 202.339.8458 1063:22 20261 1422:20 204 1225:19 207 1222:13,14,15 1222:24 1223:13 1223:15 1428:12 21 1090:20 1103:25 1155:4 1164:11 1315:8 1317:2 1352:18,21 1425:15 212 1425:11 212.605.6200 1063:5 212.912.3505 1064:24 213.283.2100 1063:16 213.443.4365 1064:9 213.486.8043 1063:11 213.623.9300 1064:19 214.276.7680 1062:5 215.575.4200 1064:14 215.772.7242 1065:5 21ii 1352:19 22 1077:12,13 1122:21 1191:9 1323:17 1360:4 1387:7 1424:15 220 1101:2,4,5,7 1103:21 1300:6 1415:16 221 1101:18,19 1300:6 1415:19 222 1114:13,14 1415:22 223 1118:1,2,10,16 1416:3 224 1121:5,6 1122:19,25 1123:24 1304:18 1304:18 1416:6 225 1124:23,24 1416:9 226 1133:2,3,21 1137:24 1416:12 227 1137:25 1138:1,3,6 1416:16 228 1146:19,21 1416:20 229 1147:25 1148:1 1310:18 1416:22 230 1150:20,21 1151:8 1152:14 1417:3 231 1154:22,23 1155:1 1157:14 1417:5 232 1157:17,18,21 1157:22 1417:8 233 1161:7,8 1162:23 1417:11 234 1163:22,23 1164:5 1397:8 1417:15 235 1169:9,10 1170:16 1171:24 1172:1 1321:6 1417:20 236 1171:25 1172:3,4 1417:23 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [237 - 41] Page 5 237 1174:4,5 1418:3 238 1178:13,14 1418:9 239 1180:13,14 1289:24 1418:12 23rd 1252:3 24 1236:24 1360:8 240 1183:8,9,10 1322:21 1418:14 241 1186:2,3 1418:18 242 1188:12,13 1418:21 243 1189:10,11 1419:3 244 1191:6,7 1323:7 1419:8 245 1193:1,3 1324:23 1419:11 246 1235:10 1419:16 247 1236:14 1419:21 248 1234:5,6,7 1420:3 249 1228:17,18 1420:7 25 1058:16 1067:23 1172:13 1172:16,18 1277:10,21 1338:20 250 1230:16,17 1420:11 2500 1064:18 1252:16 251 1232:6 1420:15 252 1250:20,21 1420:20 253 1259:6,7,9 1421:3 254 1262:6,8 1421:6 255 1272:10,11 1421:10 256 1287:19,20 1421:17 257 1290:6,7 1421:20 258 1293:3,4 1422:3 259 1297:11 1422:7 26 1178:25 1329:12 260 1298:25 1299:1 1422:10 261 1312:13,14 1422:13 262 1329:10,11 1422:16 263 1341:1,2 1422:19 264 1345:12,13 1422:21 265 1347:20,21 1390:9 1422:24 2659 1427:6 266 1356:22,23 1392:20 1423:3 267 1361:10,11 1423:7 268 1365:20,21 1423:12 2684109 1058:25 269 1374:17,18 1423:17 27 1358:15 1360:11 270 1423:22 271 1424:3 28 1094:18 2800 1063:15 29 1084:5 1181:14 1181:24 1182:4 295 1236:7 2:19 1209:20 2:33 1209:21 3 3 1084:20 1092:16 1148:24 1149:10 1152:23,24 1155:10 1179:8 1180:25 1181:19 1184:19 1269:17 1277:19 1288:25 1332:23 1333:4 1359:3 1361:21 1371:1 1391:23 3,500 1343:12 3.5 1343:24 1344:21 3.75 1081:4 30 1070:20 1071:6 1106:13 1181:14 1181:24 1182:4 1217:16 1238:13 1285:9 1299:2 1323:25 1358:20 1360:15 1365:24 1370:18 30,000 1372:23 30-32 1317:21 300 1063:15 303828 1421:9 3200 1063:10 3232 1062:4 32876 1417:25 330 1306:7,22 1307:6,8 3400 1062:14 3440 1249:18 3441 1269:4,6,13 35 1309:4 1338:20 350 1306:14,17 1307:2 356 1429:3 3587 1422:6 36 1079:24 1080:1 1080:4 1082:19 1271:21 1360:20 1424:19 3645 1417:10 37th 1372:12 380 1425:16 39 1360:4,24 390 1419:18 39211 1065:9 3:22 1242:13 3:29 1242:14 3:39 1250:14 3:44 1250:15 3 rd 1063:4 4 4 1058:11 1081:23 1133:8 1181:19 1225:19 1288:8 1297:2 1299:10 1300:2 1328:3 1431:4,20 4.24.74 1409:19 40 1062:19 1285:9 1323:25 1325:21 1338:20 405 1062:9 40s 1173:10,11 1267:20 41 1081:24,25 1082:7 1088:7 1271:20 1424:23 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [44-84] Page 6 44 1084:12,14 1275:18 1425:3 455 1063:10 4614 1418:11 1423:6 4622 1358:7 4646 1424:25 48 1088:20 1161:19,22 1267:16 480 1062:19 49 1308:19 492 1426:12 499 1293:14 1422:5 4996 1425:23 4:17 1280:14 4:18 1280:15 4:29 1289:12 4:31 1289:13 _________ 5_________ 5 1096:7,8 1099:5 1099:9 1181:19 1268:14 1288:25 1304:4 1333:11 1370:25 1408:13 1420:22 1424:17 5,000 1354:1 50 1246:21 1248:4 1248:7,17,24 1249:17,18,20,24 1250:3,4,4,4 1252:6 1267:21 1292:18 1306:1 500 1062:9 5032 1425:23 5037 1425:23 507 1415:22 5084 1427:15 50s 1173:10,11 1266:21 1267:16 1368:2 51 1232:5 5215 1417:7 5251 1249:7 53191 1428:11 53222 1427:8 55 1086:20,22 1087:1 1425:8 556 1231:2 56 1090:13,15,17 1277:9 1330:20 1425:13 5 9 73-16 1061:5 5:30 1340:7 5:41 1340:8 _________ 6_________ 6 1181:19 1269:18 1374:23 6.4 1307:19 600 1062:14 1064:4 601 1064:18 601.863.2100 1065:9 60s 1137:5 1173:12 1266:21 1369:1 1384:7 610 1062:4 6145 1421:16 63 1094:14,15 1425:17 633 1064:8 65 1421:19 650 1379:15 66 1094:23 1095:2 1095:6,14 1097:3 1102:7,17,18,24 1103:2,11 1111:18 1111:21 1132:23 1133:9,13 1134:18 1169:15 1293:14 1300:11 1411:24 1412:15 1416:13 1417:21 1422:4 1425:19 67 1281:15 69 1095:18,19,20 1284:16 1425:21 6:32 1387:4 6:34 1387:5 6:55 1401:21,22 _________ 7_________ 7 1088:20 1153:15 1181:4,19 1218:5 70 1380:6 700 1102:1,2 7024 1309:16 1332:23 70s 1137:5 1173:12 1185:21 1253:13 1381:15 1383:19,22,22,24 1384:5 71 1086:11 1155:16 1185:22 1300:1 1410:8 713.227.8008 1062:15 718-983-1234 1431:2 72 1277:10,21 1410:3 7 2 49-16 1060:6 73 1180:24 1183:14 1289:24 732.545.4717 1062:20 74 1216:13 1380:7 1405:5 75 1173:13 1345:8 1345:8 1346:15,21 1346:22,24 1380:7 75-76 1166:18 75204 1062:5 76 1101:25 1102:1 1102:1,1,2,3 1185:23,24 1189:2 1212:8 1227:24 1228:5 1233:23 1255:23 1300:10 1363:11,13,22 1383:8 1384:7 1400:24 1401:3 1405:5 767,000 1081:4 77 1348:6 1349:1 1355:2 77002 1062:10 77002-2926 1062:15 78 1213:10 79 1234:3 7:07 1413:18 7:08 1413:19 7:09 1414:9 _________ 8_________ 8 1181:191193:19 1199:17 1272:22 1332:4 1352:2,6 8/1 8 /2 0 1 7 1431:3 80 1234:3 1293:8 800 1063:4 80s 1068:19 1293:16 81 1097:5,6 1380:7 1426:3 8177 1426:22 83 1098:9,10 1293:9 1426:7 84 1100:12,13 1101:3,15,24 1102:12 1105:4 1282:21,22 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [84 - addressed] Page 7 1426:13 85 1105:9,10 1340:10 1426:18 87 1425:12 8893 1425:7 8981 1422:25 8983 1350:17 8988 1353:17,18 8993 1354:10 _________ 9_________ 9 1315:8 1343:4,5 1348:6 1352:2,6 90 1116:4 1323:22 1341:10,20 90-28 1330:7 90-29 1329:23 1330:8 1331:18 1422:17 90-30 1329:24 1330:8 1332:1 1422:17 90017-5704 1064:18 90071 1063:16 1064:9 90071-1651 1063:10 90s 1321:7 92 1116:4 1321:7 94 1236:6 95 1067:10 1088:11 96 1067:10 97 1067:10 972.537.4205 1062:10 973.549.7338 1064:5 98 1067:10 9855 1422:9 99 1119:7 1239:12 1343:4 1384:18 99.9 1107:22 1342:18 1343:4,8 1344:20 99.9. 1343:7 a abilities 1252:14 1296:14 ability 1271:5 1395:7 able 1139:10 1173:9 1189:5 1195:13 1247:15 1338:12 1395:20 1406:8 ab reast 1241:18 absence 1091:24 1095:1,13 1132:21 1143:11 1148:15 1148:17,22 1168:5 1181:9 1305:4,11 1310:20 1313:17 1314:5 1370:13 1396:20 absolute 1134:11 absolutely 1239:3 1266:5 1269:5 1334:13 1378:5 absorptio n 1149:2 1311:2,15,25,25 ab stract 1313:6 academ ic 1066:15 1290:16 academ y 1216:25 acalfo 1064:10 accept 1170:11,11 1170:12,13 accepted 1170:21 1293:22 1378:1 accessory 1342:3 accom panied 1196:24 accom panying 1105:25 accom plished 1205:4 account 1203:12 accredited 1430:3 accuracy 1178:10 accu rate 1089:11 1178:24 1204:10 1206:2 1429:6 1430:8 accustom ed 1097:25 acetam inophen 1146:1 achieve 1317:10 achieving 1395:16 acicular 1106:4 1123:12,16,19,21 1124:4,12 1134:15 1134:16 1135:12 1304:23 1305:5,8 1305:11,13,15 acid 1106:4 1122:5 1169:18 1284:20 acids 1184:13 acknow ledgm ent 1377:21 acreage 1078:11 act 1334:25 1335:5,19 acting 1290:11 actinolite 1099:11 1099:12,23 1282:23 1370:21 actions 1195:18,19 1212:24 actively 1187:3 activities 1194:16 1377:16 activity 1189:14 1189:161419:6 actual 1146:11 1159:2 1162:21 1179:9 1226:18 1252:21 1256:20 1266:22 1286:2 1319:2 add 1396:23,24 added 1109:20 1116:14 1119:12 1125:21 1136:10 1276:10 1285:23 1291:20 1410:12 addition 1073:22 1107:19 1119:9 1125:24 1131:13 1140:4 1150:13 1167:2 1185:3 1192:12 1194:16 1215:9 1314:14 additional 1120:23 1150:3 1218:6 1220:7 1229:12 1239:7 1423:22 additions 1231:7 additive 1119:12 1276:9 1277:23 1370:22 1410:8 additives 1075:4 1276:7 address 1261:5 1262:23 addressed 1097:9 1097:11 1355:1 1356:9 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [addressing - amounts] Page 8 addressing 1260:18 adequate 1181:8 1313:10 1317:13 adequately 1202:23 adhesive 1108:24 1109:14,17,21 1110:3 adhesives 1109:24 ad jacen t 1214:18 1215:11 adm inistration 1139:14 1147:18 1150:17 1155:6 1173:24 1174:11 1183:15 1192:21 1193:6,12 adm its 1418:18 adm itted 1075:18 1202:9,23 1203:16 1203:18 adopted 1118:8 advance 1210:13 advanced 1273:10 advantages 1315:9 advertisem ents 1341:4 advised 1122:15 advising 1387:19 affect 1120:15 1382:22 affiliate 1272:24 affiliates 1069:16 1130:2 1171:18 afforded 1142:1 africa 1171:18 afternoon 1212:2 1242:16 1292:9 agencies 1129:4 1150:15 agency 1076:6,11 1084:17 1147:13 1147:14 1195:13 1325:19,25 1368:14 agent 1410:12 agents 1136:9,9 agit 1298:3,12 ago 1090:7 1095:8 1108:16 1115:23 1119:22 1129:10 1239:11 1258:20 1264:12 1266:21 1281:16 1291:6 1301:24 agree 1141:25 1163:7 1175:12 1202:20 1260:13 1296:19 1299:23 1300:2 1302:1,4,6 1302:8,10,11 1303:25 1307:7 1315:3,5 1318:15 1320:25 1334:25 1336:19 1357:25 1363:16 1373:6 1377:22 agreed 1093:18 1122:13 1202:14 1203:10,11 1289:19 1298:2 1407:15 agreem ent 1093:25 1288:20 1291:4 1375:21 1414:7 agrees 1299:8 1314:23 1318:9 1394:11 ahead 1103:10 1104:25 1256:15 1313:25 1315:8 1323:12 1342:24 1354:10 1387:9 aid 1108:24 1340:13 aim 1075:4 1230:23 aim ing 1136:3,15 air 1166:2 1192:8 1233:10 1302:21 1339:11 1397:20 al 1058:7 1059:10 1060:10 1061:9 1419:16,21 1420:3 1420:7,11,15 1423:3 alarm 1086:9 alcohol 1350:7 ale 1270:17 alexander 1064:8 alfred 1290:11 allegedly 1222:16 allegra 1063:20 allow 1126:25 1215:121314:4 1318:11 1344:20 allowed 1117:15 1327:24 1362:20 allowing 1328:3 1354:21 allows 1083:25 1138:21 1139:3,6 1208:7 alluded 1127:17 1128:11 a lte r 1218:4 altered 1222:16 alternative 1123:11 1149:7 1391:11 alum inum 1148:15 am a 1318:24 am adea 1063:15 am alik 1063:22 am ax 1064:15,20 am azing 1221:20 am biguity 1181:9 am ended 1362:11 am erica 1059:7 1060:7 1061:6 1063:13 1064:15 1064:201171:19 1391:9 am erican 1065:13 1108:22 1210:1 1234:14 1235:13 1236:17 1253:15 1272:23 1360:18 1360:21 am ericans 1087:9 1108:21 am idst 1166:20 am m en's 1188:18 am osite 1125:2 am ount 1135:2 1136:16 1148:13 1148:14 1177:13 1181:61187:9 1194:9,10 1229:21 1247:2,4 1248:21 1249:5 1270:20 1301:1 1305:15 1319:10 1327:24 1335:9 1367:1 am ounts 1135:7 1169:19 1179:2 1181:11 1220:11 1248:9 1249:14 1257:5 1305:17 1326:4 1329:19 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [amounts - appropriate] Page 9 1334:5 1358:20 am phibole 1089:17 1096:9,12 1096:13,16,24 1098:15 1099:8,10 1106:1 1143:11,15 1162:1,5 1196:4,6 1299:8,10,11,16 1300:2,4 1324:6 1326:23,25 1327:11 1342:17 1343:15,17,18 1344:2,22 1360:7 1365:1 1371:4 1426:9 am phiboles 1089:3,15,20,22 1098:5 1340:18,23 1343:1 1393:10 analogy 1143:20 1143:25 analyses 1177:6 1178:6 1183:17 1185:12,19 1186:23 1191:22 1192:13 1203:22 1238:9 1269:25 1288:13 1349:14 1397:14 1419:4 analysis 1099:5 1101:101150:18 1168:21 1169:5,12 1169:13,16 1177:10 1179:21 1180:1 1184:15 1185:13 1192:13 1196:5 1203:1 1208:23 1217:24 1218:14 1230:23 1269:4 1282:16 1288:6 1310:2 1318:18 1321:6 1322:11 1326:24 1329:16 1330:11 1348:17 1358:10 1370:12 1390:4,11 1390:14 1417:20 1418:14 1426:14 analyst 1314:12 analytical 1177:25 1178:6 1184:17 1191:161195:5,13 1195:24 1281:23 1293:19,21 1317:9 1326:18 1337:8 1375:24 1376:7 analyze 1195:21 1226:14 analyzed 1152:16 1176:6 1177:8,12 1289:3 analyzer 1281:22 an d rew 's 1066:17 angeles 1058:1 1063:10,16 1064:9 1064:18 anhydrite 1200:9 1200:10,11,14,16 1200:18,20,24 1201:1 1203:17 anim al 1072:21 anne 1063:20 announced 1262:15 annoys 1187:19 annual 1171:17 1172:17 1252:17 annually 1172:14 1172:16 anoonan 1063:23 answer 1150:10 1240:9 1254:21 1267:11 1299:19 1299:21 1304:12 1304:13,15 1307:18 1319:5 1338:22 1339:4 1385:9,13 1393:19 1406:15 an sw erin g 1386:18 anthophyllite 1191:23 1205:11 1205:19,21 1323:23 1324:4 1327:24 1328:3 1331:5,11 1358:21 1359:8 1360:12,17 1360:21,24 1364:13 1365:4 1378:19 1393:15 1393:18 1407:2,3 an ti 1146:2 antibiotic 1071:21 1072:19 antibiotics 1072:5 1072:21 1146:2 anticipated 1233:2 1233:22 1260:23 antigorite 1318:6 anxious 1387:17 anybody 1222:8 1369:11 1377:11 1413:17 anybody's 1331:9 1385:22 anym ore 1268:14 anyw ay 1103:9 1340:6 a p a rt 1397:9 apologize 1191:20 1228:6 ap p aren tly 1171:1 1184:16 1290:5 1349:17 1388:6 a p p e a r 1096:13 1103:7 1122:23 1181:11 1371:20 1403:5 appearance 1093:7 1115:22 1124:21 1184:13 appeared 1178:24 1290:21 ap p earin g 1062:2 1062:8,12,17 ap p ears 1150:23 1153:18 1181:8 1201:12 1215:23 1418:8 applicable 1099:8 1148:2,5 1171:13 application 1225:14 applications 1116:5,12 1149:17 1149:17 1303:5,5 applies 1072:5 1075:3,12 1249:20 apply 1171:13 applying 1314:11 appraisal 1373:14 appreciate 1250:11 1361:9 1366:19 1383:15 approach 1194:4 1194:5 1251:18 approaches 1129:3 1317:9 appropriate 1070:24 1087:12 1094:6 1128:19 1135:23 1193:24 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [appropriate - asbestos] Page 10 1205:23 1220:20 1362:25 1375:22 1395:12 approval 1118:24 1252:13 approved 1070:23 1071:1 1111:18 1118:14 app ro x im ately 1069:15 1111:10 1112:19 1116:3 1121:2 1128:23 ap ril 1348:6 1349:1 1355:2 ap t 1143:20 archives 1423:11 ard en 1063:12 area 1078:7,11 1109:7,9,20 1161:3 1204:17 1214:18 1224:16 1231:15 1245:10 1261:5 1392:11 areas 1090:1 1203:8 1232:1,15 1404:24 1405:3 argonaut 1409:20 arm strong 1164:12 1409:10 1417:16 arose 1212:11 arran g ed 1190:22 a rriv a l 1212:3 arrived 1383:6,8 arsenic 1169:19 a rt 1416:16 a rth u r 1361:12 article 1178:24 1179:6 1188:7,14 1199:10 1218:22 1219:12 1222:21 1224:7,11 1234:11 1255:8,9,9,11,21 1271:1 1366:15,16 1392:23 articles 1371:19 asbestiform 1089:3,8,14 1097:21 1101:9 1107:24 1144:10 1158:16 1159:23 1162:3,7 1172:25 1181:6 1194:9,10 1195:14,21 1196:5 1199:22 1202:14 1202:17,17 1203:1 1232:13 1236:7 1260:3,5,21 1263:4,5 1273:22 1283:21 1304:21 1326:2,5,24 1329:20 1330:17 1334:6 asbestos 1081:18 1081:20 1083:15 1084:8 1085:22,24 1085:25 1086:16 1088:9 1089:17,19 1089:22 1091:19 1091:21,25 1092:7 1092:8 1095:1,10 1095:13 1096:25 1098:19 1099:1 1100:4 1106:11 1107:24 1108:4 1117:1,24 1120:1 1121:1 1123:8,10 1123:16,17,18 1124:11,17,20 1125:2,8,18,19,22 1125:24 1126:20 1126:25 1133:9,19 1133:22 1134:3,6 1134:14,14,16,23 1135:11,12,17,21 1136:24 1137:14 1137:18 1144:10 1144:17 1147:22 1148:15,18,22 1150:8,11 1151:4 1151:14 1152:12 1152:25 1153:11 1153:13,24 1154:18 1156:9,23 1157:7 1159:6,16 1160:1 1162:9,18 1165:16 1166:24 1167:4,8 1168:6 1169:20,22 1170:24 1171:7,7 1172:21,23 1173:4 1173:15 1174:23 1175:9,10 1176:6 1176:12,17 1177:21 1178:21 1179:2,8,10,22 1182:18,21,25,25 1183:18 1185:16 1186:9,17 1187:5 1187:8,9,12,16,21 1187:24 1188:6,11 1188:16,18 1189:3 1189:13 1190:5,6 1191:17 1192:15 1193:21,21 1194:19 1195:24 1196:4,7,10 1197:9 1209:2 1231:1,18 1238:10 1239:22,24 1240:23 1259:21 1260:1,6,10,22 1262:3 1263:4 1267:12,18 1268:8 1269:6,14,22 1270:1,9,20,23 1273:5,7 1275:25 1277:16 1278:8 1280:21,24 1281:2 1281:19,24 1283:17,20 1291:20 1294:21 1295:2,23 1296:6 1296:16,17 1297:4 1297:5,20 1298:21 1300:24,24,25 1301:1,14,18,18 1302:3,9,16 1303:25 1304:19 1305:2,3 1307:7 1308:6,7,17 1310:2,20 1311:9 1311:16,18 1312:7 1312:17 1313:10 1313:17 1314:5,6 1314:22 1315:2,15 1315:16 1316:8,11 1316:13 1317:5,7 1317:11,16,18,19 1318:8,12 1321:11 1325:18 1326:18 1326:23 1327:1 1329:16 1330:1,24 1332:9,15 1336:5 1337:3 1341:25 1343:15 1344:2,13 1344:22 1345:10 1345:22 1346:10 1346:18 1347:2 1352:18 1354:5 1365:2 1369:5 1370:14 1371:16 1371:23 1372:3 1376:7,13 1377:12 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [asbestos - attending] Page 11 1377:19 1378:19 1380:14 1382:8,14 1382:15,24 1383:10,17 1385:22 1386:5,7 1388:25,25 1393:11,11,13,14 1393:16,20,23 1395:21 1396:21 1397:3,12,15 1398:1,9 1406:24 1407:2,25 1408:9 1408:16 1409:1,12 1410:4,16,19,25 1412:18,18,19,20 1416:9,14 1418:4 1418:15,21 1419:5 1419:12 1422:21 1423:14 1424:24 1425:14,19 1426:15 1431:3 asbestosform 1089:20,21 1269:23 1420:17 ashe 1076:15 1424:11 ashton 1128:17,18 1128:21 1130:10 1130:21 1213:9 1217:17 1218:15 1219:7 1221:6,25 1272:24 1373:10 1390:25 1391:6 1406:2 1421:11 1427:10 1428:3 asia 1391:8 asiapacific 1112:23 aside 1077:10 1078:24 1084:10 1086:18 1090:12 1094:11 1095:15 1097:4 1098:7 1100:5 1105:8 1108:5 1125:16 1139:20 1157:10 1159:8 1190:16 1197:17 1204:12 1206:5 1215:25 1217:13 1225:8 1227:10 1231:24 1233:2 1234:4 1253:4 1259:2 1263:20 1287:18 1289:22 1298:24 1302:20 1312:12 1318:17 1322:13 1323:6 1327:14 1334:8 1340:25 1344:25 1354:18 1363:24 1364:10 1373:18 1404:3 1405:23 asked 1077:17 1079:1,23 1082:2 1084:12 1097:13 1098:17 1143:16 1147:11 1165:1 1166:6 1199:8 1205:3 1214:4 1217:19 1220:2,5 1223:14 1224:12 1253:7 1254:8,25 1263:22 1265:20 1265:21 1266:14 1267:16 1275:19 1277:13 1284:7,11 1302:23 1321:24 1324:18 1328:7,11 1328:12 1337:20 1337:22,25 1338:2 1338:5,22,24 1357:18 1369:9 1385:14,14 1390:8 1392:19 1393:25 1395:6 1397:1 1398:24 1407:23 1412:3,25 asking 1192:23 1292:2 1306:16,19 1320:20 1337:16 1337:17 1373:5,5 aspect 1323:24 aspects 1219:3,11 aspirin 1071:25 1072:4 1146:1 assay 1169:17,20 assem ble 1070:17 1073:1 assem bled 1070:15 assem bling 1207:9 assertion 1377:18 assess 1068:25 1077:6 1195:13 assessing 1317:13 assessment 1072:15 1195:7 1303:10,13 assessments 1069:24 assessor 1070:10 1070:23,24 1071:2 assignm ent 1431:2 assist 1198:1 assisting 1224:6 associate 1214:14 associated 1077:8 1134:18 1135:23 1164:14 1180:3 1192:15 1200:24 1231:23 1318:7 1371:22 1395:5 1398:11,12,15 associates 1084:18 1097:10 1101:12 1141:21 1156:6 1163:21 1164:11 1174:16 association 1143:3 1180:9 1196:1 1229:13 1231:17 1232:24 1326:20 assum e 1246:19 1283:11 1298:20 assum es 1378:25 assum ing 1164:22 1238:21 assurance 1293:13 1297:1 1374:6 1392:17 1395:22 1396:9 1422:3 assure 1367:2 assured 1252:14 1395:24 at& t 1058:6,6 atlantic 1380:19 atom 1180:7 attach 1158:19 attach ed 1080:8 1089:25 1122:22 1122:24 attaches 1158:21 attachm ent 1157:19 attacked 1290:25 attacks 1290:22 attem pting 1227:1 attend 1375:6 attended 1176:19 1211:25 attending 1063:2 1064:2 1065:2 1375:8 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [attention - back] Page 12 attention 1261:8 attributable 1235:3 audit 1094:23,25 1095:5 1130:8 1131:22 1132:5,7 1136:25 1139:15 1160:19 1168:5 1293:24 1294:3,11 1294:14,22,24 1295:2,4,7,11,12 1295:14,15,18 1345:19 1374:3 1396:22 1425:18 audited 1295:16 1296:23 august 1058:12 1066:4 1101:14 1123:1 1155:10 1174:101269:17 1269:18 1293:6,8 1293:10 1429:4 1430:6 au strian 1234:12 1234:15,16,22 1235:6 1420:5 au th o r 1106:25 1228:19 1231:8,10 1234:17 1235:16 1362:10 1407:13 1407:17,19 authored 1076:15 1357:21 authority 1207:24 1221:12 authors 1201:25 1202:5,9 1357:3 authorship 1362:9 autom ated 1281:21 autom atic 1116:8 available 1072:24 1127:21 1128:3 1156:16 1163:20 1178:1,7 1209:8 1216:23 1221:18 1221:23 1226:13 1233:19 1244:10 1261:10,13 1289:5 1367:3 1389:20,21 1400:3,5 1404:11 avenue 1062:4 1063:4,15 average 1153:7 1184:19 avoid 1090:11 1120:11 1219:2 avoided 1127:23 1240:11 avoiding 1126:10 avon 1174:16 1188:19 aw are 1079:18 1135:20 1150:14 1157:4 1210:14,16 1227:5 1233:16 1234:3 1245:16 1252:1 1260:9 1282:3 1286:4 1323:2 1325:25 1335:12 1337:19 1337:22 1339:9,14 1357:19,21 1383:23 1386:11 1404:5 aw ful 1113:3 1211:24 b b 1156:7,10 1352:23 1366:6 1391:23 1415:12 babies 1241:14 1266:7 1386:12 baby 1067:20 1068:2,5,6,25 1080:10 1082:25 1083:12,18,22 1084:8 1086:16 1102:6,15,17,19 1103:2,3,11 1105:5,7 1109:11 1110:6 1111:9,9 1111:23 1112:17 1115:25 1119:2,5 1119:6,7,15,16,19 1119:23 1120:2,7 1120:15,22 1124:7 1126:4 1129:22 1133:6 1134:13 1135:24 1136:23 1137:3 1141:11 1144:22 1145:13 1147:5,10 1149:18 1149:25 1150:9,12 1153:19 1155:8,17 1156:1,10,23 1159:16 1167:9 1169:16 1171:15 1172:21 1173:1 1186:6,9 1187:10 1188:11,21 1190:6 1190:8 1192:8,10 1238:10 1239:5,10 1239:12,15,17 1242:4 1243:9,9 1243:11,14,24 1244:5,14,19 1245:5,13 1246:6 1246:14,22 1248:23 1250:6 1263:25 1268:13 1268:16 1270:21 1293:14 1296:10 1328:10,18 1340:12,19,20,24 1347:7 1366:14,25 1370:20,23 1371:3 1378:18 1379:25 1384:9,10,22 1386:11,22 1387:20 1389:11 1389:13,14 1396:16 1399:2 1406:9 1417:6 1422:4 1423:15 b ab y 's 1264:5 babycenter 1264:24 babycenter.com 1264:10 1265:9,15 1265:23 babycenter.com . 1265:2 bachelors 1066:16 b a c k 1068:13 1069:9 1072:17 1074:17 1091:24 1092:10 1105:2 1106:16 1109:23 1119:3 1120:24 1123:10,21 1125:10 1137:15 1138:1 1139:25 1150:18 1158:18 1159:25 1160:11 1160:12,15 1163:24 1164:4 1173:9,11 1181:22 1194:23 1208:15 1213:17 1229:18 1229:20 1233:7 1243:12 1258:6 1263:21 1267:7,20 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [back - biology] Page 13 1269:18 1270:2,7 1274:7 1295:21 1300:18 1301:15 1308:19 1309:4 1329:25 1334:4 1335:16 1337:4,14 1349:7 1368:2 1369:1,11 1372:7 1381:15,16,25 1382:2 1383:22 1390:13 1397:2,7 background 1070:25 1108:13 1260:17,18 bacon 1058:16 1062:13 bacteria 1143:19 1144:5 bacterium 1144:16 b a d 1075:5 1217:101219:21 1227:4 1335:20 bags 1249:18 1252:6 bailey 1376:23,24 1377:18 balance 1220:15 balanced 1371:21 ball 1114:19,21 1136:1 1420:22 band 1108:24 barely 1249:3,12 b a rtle tt 1062:3 baseball 1114:19 1136:1 based 1089:10 1117:12 1123:20 1134:7 1166:25 1173:8,23 1189:22 1208:25 1215:17 1261:3 1263:16 1315:6 1363:14 1369:4 1394:24 basic 1144:24 1159:1 basically 1067:14 1068:1,8 1069:7 1069:17,19 1109:1 1119:161120:11 1162:9 1164:19 1180:5 1185:2 1194:3 1201:19 1203:4 1229:5 1292:1 1304:7 1309:13 1406:7 basis 1067:21 1072:8 1130:4 1132:13,15 1134:22 1139:11 1145:7 1171:17 1173:3 1178:7 1233:15 1252:17 1252:21 1398:10 batches 1149:20 bates 1088:11 1103:14,21,22,25 1104:4,11,17,18 1358:6 1413:21 1415:23 1416:5,11 1416:19,21,24 1417:4 1418:7,13 1418:23 1419:7,14 1419:20,23 1420:6 1420:10,14,19 1421:22 1422:15 1423:10,24 1424:14,18,22,25 1425:7,11,12,16 1425:20,23 1426:6 1426:12,17,22 1428:15 b ath 1136:9,12 1188:22 battelle 1266:22 1267:7,24 1268:5 1369:11 b au er 1192:9 bc646315 1058:5 bcc 1423:13 b cc'd 1366:3 beach 1064:22 bearing 1371:24 beauty 1188:19 began 1195:20,22 1233:20 beginning 1093:15 1135:20 1263:21 1263:23 behalf 1086:2 1087:13 1163:5 1176:20 1238:4 1242:4 1318:23 behave 1072:9,11 beh av io r 1077:7 belief 1100:22 believe 1074:14 1075:8 1091:10 1096:3 1107:9 1110:5 1116:3,14 1139:21 1147:11 1150:20 1166:11 1180:15 1185:10 1186:21 1189:8 1196:12 1206:5,11 1207:8 1209:13,15 1240:22 1241:20 1242:18 1251:14 1251:20 1258:20 1295:13 1296:11 1318:24 1328:1 1373:24 1374:3 1400:10 1403:22 believed 1188:6 1217:7 1300:7 bell 1058:6 beneficiation 1273:11 benefit 1138:11 benninger 1164:12,22 1417:15 best 1093:23 1128:3 1161:15 1221:22 1240:9 1245:11 1308:16 1382:24 b eta 1146:3 1203:19 b etter 1138:19 1141:1 1270:7 1320:7 1336:24 1337:5,7 beyond 1173:13 1209:8 1377:15 b i 1309:5 1322:8 1322:11 biased 1336:17 1349:15 biddle 1064:3 big 1338:11 1342:22 1353:23 1361:23 1366:21 bill 1128:17 1272:24,25 1390:24 1391:5 biochem istry 1066:17 biological 1359:14 biologist 1066:23 1071:1 biology 1066:24 1073:4,24 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [biometrics - calculates] Page 14 biom etrics 1216:22 1217:8 b ird 1188:19 b it 1066:12 1067:22 1100:9,24 1109:20 1111:1 1112:15 1121:15 1143:24 1145:5,7 1167:16 1190:18 1276:2 1309:11 1345:25 1381:15 1381:17 bits 1342:3 black 1192:9,9 b la n d 1356:2,7 blind 1366:3 block 1063:4 blockers 1146:3 blood 1073:11,13 blount 1319:23 b o a rd 1076:3 1208:16 1259:24 1261:6 1267:14 1283:11 1300:18 1301:13 1328:8 1348:23 1367:25 1405:6,25 b o ard s 1411:3 bob 1251:10 body 1071:19,19 1072:13 1073:11 1080:9 1112:18 1127:6 1153:15,20 1162:15,21 1188:10,20,23 1192:7 1207:24 1238:20 1299:10 1303:22 book 1123:2 1145:21,22 b o rn 1380:5 bottle 1294:9 1341:9,19 1379:11 1379:13 1410:13 bottled 1294:4,10 1294:12 1295:16 bottom 1091:12 1118:15 1136:14 1325:10 1350:5,17 1353:17 1354:2 1398:2 1410:15 bought 1255:6 bouquet 1192:7 1296:7 1297:18,21 1298:19 1299:10 1299:25 1323:21 1324:3 bowes 1357:4 bowling 1198:22 1198:23 1199:4,9 1199:14,18 1200:7 1200:141201:9 1202:19 1204:1,8 1427:11 box 1062:19 boxes 1110:3 b ran ch 1147:19 1381:17 b ran d s 1296:6 b re a k 1093:3 1108:6 1131:17 1142:19 1154:3 1209:19 1280:12 1301:22 1340:6 1349:20 1350:1 1374:16 breaks 1225:24 b reath 1359:25 breathable 1211:10 b re a th e 1211:11 1360:2 b ren n tag 1059:7 1060:7 1061:6 1065:6 b rie f 1158:21 1376:4 briefly 1259:5 1323:9 1324:25 1387:7 b rin g 1365:11 1374:20 bringing 1366:19 bristol 1063:12 b rita in 1083:11 1158:17 1159:24 1188:21 1358:11 1358:13 1362:25 b ritish 1356:25 1361:25 1362:3,11 1362:22 1363:21 1393:4 1423:4 bro ad 1058:16 1065:4 1115:14 1400:2 b ro a d e r 1126:3 b ro ch u re 1166:17 b ro k en 1093:5 1114:18,21 1257:1 1257:4 bronchus 1226:2,9 b ro u g h t 1271:20 1309:21 1333:25 1355:24,25 1385:18 brow n 1065:7 1122:1 1359:24 bruce 1380:20 1381:5 1382:4 b runsw ick 1062:19 1109:4,6 1171:21 1252:2 b ru sh 1400:2 b ru t 1192:7 b tw n 1419:8 1421:17 bubbles 1136:12 bubbling 1136:9 b u lk 1135:5 1167:17,19,22 1168:2,6,12 1169:18 1184:21 1294:12 1317:12 1322:5 bullet 1263:15 1404:25 1421:7 bulletin 1416:22 bundle 1353:23 1354:13 bundy 1063:9 b u re a u 1155:5 business 1069:23 1109:11 1110:4,6 1125:18,20 1233:1 1252:15 1388:16 butanol 1284:20 buy 1070:4 1122:12 1142:1 1143:5 1171:15 byers 1424:10 c c 1062:1,4 1063:1 1063:20 1064:1 1065:1 1123:12,12 1228:23 1293:23 1332:2 1361:16 1391:23 calcium 1148:14 1180:7 1200:11,16 1200:18 calculates 1342:25 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [certainly - citizens] Page 16 1171:11 1173:11 1183:6 1196:16 1197:22 1198:4,7 1207:8 1212:12 1227:20 1228:11 1 2 2 9 :2 0 , 2 2 1233:7 1234:3 1237:19 1239:5 1241:21 1267:20 1271:17 1272:5 1280:18 1285:2,19 1324:10 1342:23 1366:14 1379:8,11,20 1380:22 1381:15 1381:16 1382:4 1385:10 1386:14 1386:15 1399:18 1404:21 certainty 1107:22 1246:25 1248:16 1248:20 1250:2,7 1396:5 certificate 1169:12 1429:1 1430:1 certify 1429:3 1430:4,12 cetera 1241:14 1291:10 1350:7 cf 1420:22 chafing 1081:16 chain 1328:15 chairm an 1241:7 chalm ers 1361:16 1394:1 1423:7 chance 1229:22 change 1112:6 1130:16,18 1237:13 1301:23 1309:11 1431:5 changed 1132:4 1134:8 1297:18 1362:9 1398:24 changes 1429:5 changing 1351:23 ch aracter 1158:16 1159:23 1162:7 1339:25 characteristics 1118:19 1362:8 characterization 1100:10 characterize 1093:10 1204:4 characterized 1095:5 charge 1201:24 Charles 1059:3 c h a rt 1150:5 1224:14 1225:19 1372:4 1397:10 1423:23 1424:3 ch artered 1066:23 1071:1 1079:19 chas 1250:25 chase 1062:14 1165:17 chat 1375:19 check 1137:1 1174:23 1202:24 1235:5 1237:4 1270:8 1323:14 1331:4,5 1332:7,7 1332:18 1337:15 1338:2,5 1391:20 checked 1170:6 1270:8 1370:10 checks 1322:10 cheesebrough 1174:17 chem ical 1075:2 1113:61121:10,20 1180:11 1279:25 1362:7 chemicals 1072:10 chem istry 1066:16 1 2 9 0 :1 6 1356:25 1362:11 1423:4 chem ists 1113:7 chen 1361:3 chestnut 1064:13 chewing 1116:15 children 1239:4,6 china 1112:25 1113:1 1129:9,19 1391:8 chnese 1361:3 chisone 1078:7,11 1078:12 1110:10 1110:12 1130:19 1224:16 1226:22 1227:3 1230:11,20 1231:15 1387:13 1420:12 chlorite 1091:18 1180:2,4,5 1203:13,14 1271:6 1271:14 1312:5 1342:1 choice 1311:1 1406:20 chose 1290:14 Chris 1062:3 chrom ium 1359:13 chronological 1213:21 chrysotile 1085:7 1085:9,25 1091:19 1091:21,25 1092:23 1093:20 1125:2 1158:14 1159:19,22 1160:1 1166:1,10,12 1176:2,4,9,25 1177:4,8,12 1179:17,25 1180:1 1181:10,12 1182:1 1182:14 1184:6,8 1190:5 1203:15 1271:3,6,15 1275:25 1276:4,12 1276:14,17,21,23 1277:23 1278:1,5 1282:19 1284:4,12 1284:19,22 1285:4 1285:24 1287:2,3 1287:4,4,4,8,9,10 1287:11 1291:7,9 1291:12,14,15,17 1291:19,22,23,24 1291:25 1292:1,3 1292:5,9,14,14,15 1292:19,20,24,24 1293:1 1307:14 1332:3 1342:16 1343:1,10,12,24 1344:21 1358:23 1370:21,23 1371:9 1371:10 1397:20 1409:6,20,24 1410:7,11 chunky 1099:25 circle 1365:12 circum stances 1359:12 citing 1327:3,18 citizen 1193:10,25 citizen's 1192:22 1192:25 1193:7,8 1193:16 1209:4,16 1324:19 citizens 1194:14 1325:4 1419:12 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [citrate - commercial] Page 17 citrate 1119:11,19 1276:17,22,24 1410:12 citric 1284:20 claim 1139:16 1155:7 1205:20 1267:1 1276:13 1277:25 1287:2 1344:191411:3 claim ed 1185:15 1185:16 1186:6,8 1186:9 1188:4 1371:13 claim ing 1324:5,6 1324:7,14 1343:11 1343:17 claims 1205:10 clarification 1103:19 1104:9,12 1134:12 1224:24 1247:9 1269:12 1356:21 1397:6 clarity 1134:11 d a r k 1059:10 1060:10 1061:9 1062:171174:16 1243:1,5 1244:12 1244:16 1245:3,12 1245:18 1246:20 1247:14 1248:18 1248:22 1249:6 1250:3 1251:1,4,9 1252:23 1253:1 classic 1125:13 1138:17 1150:16 1291:241292:25 classical 1291:9,17 1291:23 classification 1179:16 clean 1095:9 1108:4 1127:10,11 cleaned 1127:7 cleansing 1367:6 clear 1086:15 1103:1 1160:14 1201:23 1206:1 1238:9 1239:23 1259:20 1269:15 1283:19 1294:17 1295:9 1301:19 1373:10 1409:11 clearing 1384:21 clearly 1089:13 1102:5 1104:20 1107:20 1122:2 1125:7,14 1134:16 1227:8 1233:22 cleavable 1205:14 1205:16,18 cleavagable 1204:20 cleavage 1099:18 1204:19 1323:23 1323:23 client 1330:14 clinical 1198:8 clogging 1119:13 1119:17 close 1227:6 1389:8 1398:19 closely 1167:1 1398:7 closer 1306:24 clutch 1166:4 1397:22 1408:3 coal 1087:18 coauthor 1361:13 cobalt 1359:14 coded 1288:6 codes 1427:4 coffee 1240:14 coggiola 1228:21 1228:22,24 1231:5 1234:13 1404:9 1420:7 co h o rt 1191:2 1229:2 1234:11 1420:3 cohorts 1235:6 Colgate 1297:16,17 1297:18,22 colleague 1232:20 colleagues 1174:20 1185:15 1216:15 1222:1 1228:11,12,24 1232:10 1361:24 1373:11 1381:6 1404:9 collected 1158:9 collection 1165:20 college 1083:11 1087:7,11,11 1156:3 1157:23 colleges 1087:20 color 1117:2 1135:5 1169:18 Colorado 1080:5 1080:14,17 1128:11 1155:22 1163:16 1198:21 1199:3,8,16,21 1200:3,12 1201:8 1202:1,20 1204:1 1269:16 1274:9 1368:13,18 1421:13 1424:19 1427:9 colum nar 1099:17 com bination 1313:20 com bine 1237:23 come 1072:23 1075:6 1078:3 1090:61100:18 1113:18 1119:10 1166:12 1193:14 1194:5 1213:16 1223:18 1258:6 1324:24 1353:20 comes 1078:14 1114:201207:21 1279:25 1292:5 1328:16 1396:18 coming 1086:14 1127:1 1272:5,6 1301:12 1332:14 com m ent 1096:19 1209:17 1265:7 1275:12 1278:19 1328:1,12 1332:11 1350:13 1354:8 1355:8 1363:24 1376:22 1377:17 1385:15 1394:14 com m ented 1236:8 com m enting 1219:3 comments 1098:20 1099:7 1183:2,17,21 1218:15,16,19 1219:5 1221:4 1318:15 1373:9 1418:14 com m ercial 1125:1 1163:17 1181:5 1184:7 1281:18 1291:8,13 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [commercial - concluded] Page 18 1291:19 1416:9 co m m ercially 1289:5 com m inution 1089:1 1349:18,19 commission 1431:25 commissioned 1080:14 1173:24 com m ittee 1289:3 1416:3 com m only 1180:3 1280:2 com m unicate 1166:8 com m unicating 1157:2 com m unication 1220:17 com m unity 1215:11 1290:17 1389:20 1400:3 com panies 1071:10 1141:21 1143:4 1167:5 " 1174:13 1175:21 1183:5 1198:5 com pany 1058:7 1063:12 1064:15 1064:20 1065:11 1065:13 1067:5,7 1067:8,9,13,19 1068:14,20,21 1069:4,15,18,18 1069:19 1070:17 1071:7,11 1074:1 1079:18 1082:24 1090:22 1097:12 1109:18 1110:11 1111:11,14,16 1112:16 1126:6,14 1129:1 1133:6 1145:9 1150:14 1152:10 1167:25 1168:4,21 1170:5 1171:12 1172:21 1172:22 1173:7 1174:17 1179:10 1179:14 1204:23 1233:18 1239:16 1239:23 1240:6 1241:2,2,8,10,21 1242:1,4 1243:14 1246:13 1247:8 1264:11 1265:2,2 1265:10,25 1272:24 1312:22 1335:13 1347:12 1366:21 1381:13 1383:25 1388:24 1389:11 com p an y 's 1140:11,14 1173:8 1182:20 1381:4 com pare 1222:24 1226:5 1258:18 com pared 1236:25 1288:23 com pares 1226:19 1268:17,19,20 com paring 1255:15 1296:21 1339:10,14 com parison 1143:17 1144:13 1197:9 1223:22 1300:14 1302:15 com petence 1290:19 com petent 1137:17 com petitors 1340:11,12 compile 1218:8 com plete 1376:6 com pleted 1083:12 1216:23 completely 1273:9 1339:24 com pletes 1080:8 complex 1358:14 1370:10 com pliance 1168:1,24 com ply 1224:7 complying 1148:19 com ponents 1119:6 1162:16 com posed 1366:25 composite 1165:14 1295:24 1321:25 1350:22,23 1351:7 1352:23 1392:2,5 1392:8,12 com position 1088:22 1113:6 1393:3 com prehensive 1141:1,2,3 com prised 1229:3 com prises 1119:7 com prom ise 1093:17 com puterized 1215:12 concentrations 1281:25 1317:17 concept 1385:18 concern 1175:20 1178:25 1193:12 1193:14 1239:15 1240:11 1252:11 1261:15 1312:5 1318:6 1366:19 1399:12 1423:14 concerned 1135:14 1216:18 1216:20 1389:12 concerning 1079:16 1096:9 1098:2 1102:10 1126:3 1152:18 1154:18 1186:4,5 1186:11 1188:8 1197:21 1200:13 1203:8 1209:5 1216:11 1217:17 1217:20 1219:5 1222:1 1229:25 1231:13 1232:21 1234:21 1236:4 1237:2,14 1238:5 1238:19 1239:20 1366:13 1389:19 1394:13 1398:3,21 concerns 1126:3 1240:5,7 1399:3 conclude 1080:25 1081:17 1098:2 1130:11 1152:18 1161:18 1181:1 1182:7 1193:24 1196:21 1207:11 1209:5 1229:7,25 1232:21 1234:21 1236:4,21 1237:2 1238:4 1245:10 1398:11 concluded 1081:3 1081:20 1118:11 1129:21 1173:3 1207:14 1208:13 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [concluded - consumer] Page 19 1208:18 1209:9 1229:11 1231:16 1232:24 1273:8 1414:9 concludes 1166:25 concluding 1107:15,16 conclusion 1074:25 1075:6 1088:12 1089:23 1107:21 1159:4,6 1159:12 1172:24 1173:8 1177:14,16 1182:18,20,22 1188:15 1189:1,22 1190:3 1196:18,19 1197:8 1208:10 1231:8 1237:14 1260:20 1261:3,8 1270:9,11 1358:6 1392:6 conclusions 1161:21 1218:5 1268:4 1284:18 1358:5,9 1395:4 1398:3 conclusively 1156:22 1159:15 conditions 1119:1 1305:19 conduct 1151:15 1303:12 conducted 1080:3 1083:18 1194:17 1211:4 1212:18 1269:25 1293:25 confer 1290:21 conference 1362:13,20 conferences 1073:23 confidence 1346:4 confident 1152:10 1262:20 1406:8 confidential 1073:18 1178:7 1204:14 1425:21 1427:13 confirm 1100:25 1104:13 1132:3 1165:2 1179:23 1231:17 1278:5 1336:24 1370:13 1413:4 confirm ation 1168:1 confirm ed 1132:14 1150:11 1262:21 1271:17 1287:6,10 1300:24 1301:18 1302:2 1371:4 1408:25 conform s 1170:10 1170:20 confrontation 1290:18 confuse 1271:14 1312:5 confused 1091:19 1410:11 confuses 1180:1 confusion 1263:16 1276:16 congratulated 1262:19 congress 1372:13 conjunction 1080:20 1135:15 1218:14 connected 1362:23 connection 1066:21 1075:9 1077:4,21 1078:5 1080:15 1081:1 1086:12 1088:13 1091:4,14 1092:4 1094:2,23 1101:3 1105:3 1107:17 1111:23 1112:5 1118:18 1126:3 1133:16 1148:9,17 1150:4,25 1151:9 1154:13 1156:17 1158:3,24 1160:22 1162:12 1163:2 1168:20 1176:1 1178:3 1180:23 1182:16 1183:16 1185:13,18 1186:1 1186:6,22 1191:4 1191:19 1193:17 1193:25 1195:1 1197:1 1198:15 1200:15 1201:6 1202:1,21 1205:4 1207:11 1209:4 1211:13 1212:25 1213:18 1219:8 1220:1 1227:22 1239:16 1389:10 1390:14 1393:24 1394:2 1396:1,15 1411:14 1412:16 conopco 1063:18 consensus 1238:18 consequence 1197:14 consider 1211:1 1260:10 1405:2 consideration 1196:14 1251:15 considered 1130:1 1211:2 1335:10 considering 1259:21 1260:1,3 considers 1226:2 consist 1358:13 constituency 1207:16 constitutes 1288:24 consultancy 1074:1 consultant 1069:15,18,22 1083:10 1087:12 1126:14 1128:24 1212:8 1244:8 1261:11 1266:11 1266:15 1290:21 1319:4 1348:5 consultants 1086:4 1094:5 1141:18 1145:12 1163:1 1237:25 1238:19 1337:20 1364:22 consulting 1097:10 1216:21 consum ed 1147:4 consum er 1068:20 1069:201174:13 1177:23 1183:5 1189:21 1208:7 1210:1 1238:22 1239:2 1243:12,25 1244:6 1245:19 1296:2 1339:12 1356:25 1357:14 1358:12,16,21,22 1362:12 1363:20 1369:22 1393:4 1423:5,12 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [consumers - correct] Page 20 consumers 1171:14 1174:13 1238:21,24 1248:2 1365:10,12 1366:22 1369:18 contact 1069:14 1117:16 contacted 1261:11 1261:16 contacts 1215:22 contain 1095:9 1124:11 1188:11 1297:20 1326:1 1343:11,12,18 1344:11 1369:3 1376:15 1403:23 1405:13 contained 1091:17 1176:25 1179:8 1188:6 1282:22 container 1184:21 containers 1167:21,24 1246:21 1248:7,17 1248:24 1249:7,18 1250:4 containing 1081:4 1151:18 1177:22 1260:10 1298:21 1317:16,20 1345:22 1376:8 1418:5 contains 1083:14 1084:8 1194:9,10 1202:17 1220:11 1326:4 1330:17 1344:23 1404:1 contam inant 1120:23 1292:4 contam inated 1269:19 1270:3 1292:12 1371:23 co n tam ination 1126:25 1166:2,2 1173:4 1192:15 1314:5 1317:8,11 1347:2 1397:20,21 contem poraneous 1398:18 contem porary 1398:19 content 1079:17 1082:20 1096:9,12 1102:10 1105:5 1106:1 1122:4 1148:11,12 1172:25 1217:1 1264:8,14,20 1265:12,19 1266:1 1297:5 1426:16 context 1090:4 1097:17 1220:4 1251:22 1299:3 continent 1221:12 continue 1069:23 1266:7 continued 1063:1 1064:1 1065:1 1066:3 1187:18 1196:81218:8 1268:9 continues 1166:25 1398:7 continuing 1327:2 continuously 1165:13 contract 1152:15 contracted 1376:6 contractor 1320:16 co ntrary 1167:10 contributed 1196:7 1327:1,20 contribution 1382:20 control 1126:15 1137:1,1 1195:22 1226:18 1234:11 1264:14,19,20 1265:5,11,12,18 1345:2,11,19 1346:2,9,16,19 1347:1 1373:2,7,8 1373:13,15,17 1377:19 1420:4 1422:21 controlled 1264:2 1264:6 controversy 1187:7 1383:16,17 1383:18 convention 1146:24 conversation 1299:3 1422:10 convey 1410:15 cooperate 1387:17 copies 1272:13 1287:24 copy 1075:21 1164:14,16 1166:19 1188:14 1196:2 1222:21 1254:25 1255:3,8 1255:21,23 1256:8 1272:14,20 1324:20,22 1326:21 1365:22 1366:4 1374:19 1387:10 1390:9 1393:5 1403:1 1407:17 co rn er 1256:2 corp 1058:6 corporate 1074:22 1096:20 1239:18 corporation 1065:13 corporations 1071:8 1198:5 correct 1070:1 1090:23 1096:17 1096:18 1124:4,5 1132:16 1145:18 1157:1 1160:8,9 1163:8 1167:11 1181:20 1188:9 1191:25 1195:7 1203:3 1227:17,18 1230:11,12 1243:18 1244:2,8 1244:15,16,22,25 1245:1,6,7,15,16 1252:8,24 1253:21 1254:10 1255:10 1256:21 1257:2,6 1257:13,14 1258:19 1259:22 1260:2,6,7,11,14 1260:15 1262:11 1262:12 1263:9 1265:24 1267:5,9 1268:1,2 1270:21 1270:22,23 1271:3 1272:4,8 1273:18 1274:1,5 1275:19 1276:24,25 1277:16,24 1278:14 1282:19 1284:4,9,10,23,24 1286:15 1289:8,17 1290:3 1291:4,22 1292:6 1295:3 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [correct - cover] Page 21 1296:10 1297:5 1298:3,17,22 1300:3,16 1301:3 1302:18 1303:1,8 1303:21,24 1304:19,21 1306:25 1307:9 1308:13 1309:1,17 1311:3 1312:7 1314:18,25 1316:20 1319:20 1319:21,25 1321:14 1322:9,11 1322:16,23 1323:1 1324:4 1326:10,13 1327:3,4,25 1328:19,20 1329:6 1330:10 1332:9 1333:7 1334:1 1335:21 1336:12 1336:17 1338:1 1344:19 1347:17 1349:8 1350:15,19 1350:23 1352:4,8 1352:13,17 1353:14 1354:5,16 1355:11,17 1356:10,11,13,14 1356:15,16,18,19 1357:15 1360:15 1363:9,18 1364:5 1364:6,9,20,21,23 1364:24 1365:7 1367:10,15 1368:8 1368:24 1369:13 1369:14 1371:11 1376:19 1378:5 1379:4 1386:4,6 1386:23,25 1387:1 1389:1 1399:16,17 1399:21 1400:9,14 1401:2,12,15 1402:18,25 1403:6 1405:18,21,22 1407:1,7 1408:14 1408:15 1410:17 1410:20 1413:3,12 correction 1178:23 corrections 1429:5 correctly 1273:13 correctness 1336:1 correlation 1183:24 correspond 1101:13,24 correspondence 1076:25 1158:20 1241:22 1244:9,17 1362:23 cosmetic 1070:10 1071:2 1072:24 1073:17 1074:3 1075:3 1081:9 1105:5,6 1107:12 1112:18 1113:21 1113:22 1116:20 1116:22,23,24 1123:4,5 1127:2 1143:3 1146:14 1151:16,17 1154:12 1173:2 1177:22 1179:2 1181:3 1183:18 1192:16,18,23 1193:13,17,20 1194:1,8,18 1195:2,15,20,23 1195:25 1196:2,8 1197:10 1208:24 1209:6,24 1210:5 1210:61219:2 1227:19 1232:4 1233:4 1235:15 1237:15 1238:3,6 1238:20 1239:21 1242:5 1281:18 1288:7 1289:5 1300:15 1301:1 1302:15,17 1319:4 1325:25 1326:3,19 1326:21 1327:2,9 1355:17 1356:1,1 1356:4 1371:24 1372:2 1389:14 1390:19,21 1391:4 1392:17 1396:16 1398:12 1409:1,9 1409:12 1410:16 1410:19 1411:18 1411:20 1412:1,11 1412:15 1413:1,3 1413:8,12,14 1418:15 1427:5 cosmetics 1070:3 1070:10 1074:4 1191:13 1288:8 1303:3,7 1317:23 1418:4 cosmich 1065:7 cost 1141:24 1261:15,17 1372:20 1391:17 costs 1251:25 coty 1192:8 counsel 1089:25 1430:13,15 counselors 1261:7 count 1092:12 1330:19 1331:16 1331:18,22 countable 1333:21 1333:25 counted 1203:21 counter 1145:25 counterparts 1199:9 countries 1071:13 1112:24 1116:15 1117:17 1130:9 1232:4 1346:16 1347:9 country 1071:5 1171:14 counts 1106:3 county 1058:1 1059:1 1060:1 1061:1 couple 1067:4 1083:7 1089:5 1092:17 1172:14 1183:20 1238:7 1252:5 1262:15 1331:17 1386:14 1386:15 course 1072:23 1073:17 1116:6 1138:24 1172:18 1203:15 1227:12 1243:21 1254:17 1256:1 1272:1 1322:25 1327:7 1341:24 1346:15 1347:8 1349:23 1371:24 1379:6 1398:19 court 1058:1,19 1059:1 1060:1 1061:1 1289:9 1430:1,3 1431:1 cover 1079:25 1087:5 1120:25 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [cover - day] Page 22 1123:23 1157:19 1157:22 1252:3 1281:14 1290:1,5 1330:2,16 1418:12 1421:20 coverage 1190:18 covering 1236:24 covers 1078:11 1194:2 cp an atier 1062:6 crap 1222:11 credo 1241:3 crisis 1261:15 criteria 1181:7 crocidolite 1125:2 crops 1292:3 cross 1272:13 1305:15 crossing 1380:18 crystal 1115:13 crystalline 1085:15 1375:23 1423:19 crystals 1123:15 1305:13,15,17 1307:4,25 cs 1065:10 ctfa 1099:3 1140:4 1140:20,25 1141:4 1142:24 1143:1 1144:23 1145:2,3 1145:10 1190:22 1196:1,5,10 1259:9,15 1261:11 1286:12 1288:3,7 1288:13,22 1289:3 1289:18 1291:3 1311:7,7,12 1326:8,20,24 1327:8,12 1341:8 1341:14 1375:2 1382:18 1383:3,20 1383:20 1418:4 1421:3,17 cubicle 1391:12 cultures 1072:11 cum ulative 1235:1 cup 1240:13 cupboards 1384:21 cu rren t 1151:16 1314:11,201315:6 1318:16 1373:19 1375:21 currently 1094:25 1095:2 1247:23 1251:17 1314:3 1317:4,22 1373:22 custom er 1164:23 1164:23 custom ers 1240:25 cutting 1165:17 cwm90-28 1329:23 1330:14 1422:16 cyanamid 1065:13 Cyprus 1064:15,20 1169:14 1246:18 1321:7 1329:13,25 1330:4 1331:18 1422:16_________ ________ d________ d 1228:23 1234:19 1235:18 1350:9 1366:6 1415:1,22 daily 1233:15 1295:24 dallas 1062:5 dangerous 1386:7 1387:21 dangers 1187:4 daniel 1063:3 daniels 1059:10 1060:10 1061:9 1062:17 1174:16 1243:1,6 1244:12 1244:17 1245:4,12 1245:18 1246:20 1248:18,22 1249:6 1250:3 1251:1,5,9 1252:23 1253:1 d a rk 1122:1 d artene 1059:4 d ata 1072:24 1073:1 1075:5 1091:22 1092:19 1156:19,22 1159:15 1177:25 1178:6 1186:14 1187:13 1190:15 1196:20,25 1197:1 1201:24 1202:11 1203:22 1207:9,14 1208:2,8 1215:9 1215:11,16,23 1216:23 1217:1 1218:8,12 1219:14 1222:9,18 1226:13 1256:11,17 1257:20 1258:9,13 1258:19,22 1275:12 1371:22 1389:19,23 1396:23,24 1400:2 1400:5 1401:1 1403:4,11,24 1404:10,12 1406:7 date 1066:4 1069:7 1081:22 1084:4,5,19 1095:23,24 1097:7 1106:2,12,21 1122:19,20,23 1138:191161:15 1165:13,22 1210:101228:1,5 1234:2 1242:2 1243:20 1255:11 1256:3,9 1277:20 1293:5 1323:14 1348:25 1371:7 1382:6,21 1429:13 1430:21 1431:3 dated 1081:23 1084:20 1094:17 1094:18 1097:8 1098:13 1123:1 1133:8 1155:4 1164:11 1174:10 1183:11 1199:17 1214:12 1216:6,12 1232:11 1236:16 1250:24 1255:4 1259:9 1262:14 1277:9 1297:9 1365:24 dating 1091:24 1158:18 1159:25 1160:15 david 1059:3 1065:23 day 1058:11 1087:24,25 1109:23 1139:22 1171:3 1181:1 1182:16 1211:11 1233:14 1237:14 1237:20 1238:2,3 1238:12 1245:23 1245:23 1297:2 1319:8 1332:22 1348:8 1365:11 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [day - described] Page 23 1377:16,16 1380:24 1387:23 1393:17 1398:23 1400:9 1431:22 days 1066:10 1074:12 1121:16 1128:16 1140:10 1150:61161:1 1211:2 1229:21 1243:3 1244:4,11 1266:21 1270:13 1279:17 1281:16 1286:18 1299:5 1301:24 1335:8 1344:15 1362:13 1382:11,17 1386:15 dbr.com 1064:5 dc 1063:21 1076:12 1375:1,6 1423:20 dcst 1288:23 dcst's 1419:4 dead 1302:21 deal 1074:10 1205:24 1232:1 1241:25 1367:17 1391:17 dealing 1129:3,3,4 1129:4 1178:25 1380:14,15 deals 1226:16 dean 1361:16 d ear 1251:10 1272:25 1366:12 death 1215:9 1216:3 1223:6 1236:10 1237:6,7 1254:9 1427:22 deaths 1224:23 1227:9 debate 1324:11,13 1405:3 decade 1419:19 decades 1270:1 decanted 1350:6 decem ber 1081:23 1214:12 1261:7 1263:16 1342:10 1365:24 1370:18 1371:8 1374:23 decent 1285:5 deceptive 1335:1 decide 1301:23 1369:12 decided 1151:15 1202:6 1215:22 decides 1295:2 decision 1093:22 1130:18 1171:11 1194:5 1207:18 deem ed 1386:1 defend 1261:23 defendant 1062:8 1062:12 1424:3 defendants 1058:8 1059:11 1060:11 1061:10 defense 1263:9 define 1139:4 1264:18 1317:19 1367:16 1373:8 defined 1118:22 1182:24 1332:14 1332:15,23 1412:19 defines 1149:10 definitely 1181:11 1323:24 definition 1118:4 1262:23 1263:9,17 1268:19 1292:19 1331:9 1332:17,20 1332:21 1413:14 definitions 1118:16 1263:1 1288:24 definitive 1093:19 degree 1066:16 1169:19 1281:24 1323:23 d eird ra 1058:19 1430:3,20 delayed 1110:21 deleted 1218:25 deliberately 1285:23 1335:13 delivered 1250:3 d em and 1221:11 dem ent 1232:20 1420:15 dem onstrate 1088:13 1150:8 1168:5 1211:12 dem onstrated 1323:20 1359:7 dem onstrates 1323:10 denial 1196:23 denied 1196:23 density 1135:5 1169:18 dentons 1064:17 dentons.com 1064:19 departm ent 1067:14,17 1076:17 1087:7,15 1087:22 1088:4 1128:13 1155:15 1157:24 1161:11 1197:23,23 1223:4 1374:7 1385:13 departm ent's 1232:18 depends 1113:19 1264:18 1316:14 1335:6 1367:16 1373:8 1382:1 deponent 1429:1 deposed 1355:22 deposit 1079:8 deposited 1205:8 deposition 1058:10 1066:3 1101:2 1243:21 1414:9 1429:4 1431:3 deposits 1089:8 depression 1110:17 1111:4 dept 1424:12 describe 1093:8 1113:7 1114:4 1115:8,19 1135:22 1141:2 1169:16 1287:3 1295:18 1315:12 1328:17 1406:5 described 1088:21 1095:21 1099:25 1101:25 1110:18 1110:22 1111:25 1115:23 1122:6 1123:24 1126:10 1135:18 1138:14 1146:6 1147:14 1155:19 1156:3 1161:12 1167:17 1176:5 1179:12 1191:20 1301:11 1348:21 1353:2 1390:17 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [describes - different] Page 24 describes 1082:16 1098:25 1100:18 1105:20 1117:20 1117:22 1121:19 1121:22 1135:3,5 1135:5 1143:8 1145:22 1146:10 1146:23 1147:16 1182:12,14 1199:18 1214:6 describing 1106:9 1116:19 1169:14 1172:9 description 1088:24 1121:9 1146:22 1180:11 1215:19 1217:3 1281:17 1304:25 1393:13 1415:14 1416:1 1417:1 1418:1 1419:1 1420:1 1421:1 1422:1 1423:1 1424:1,8 1425:1 1426:1 1427:1 1428:1 descriptions 1135:9 descriptor 1100:15 desert 1272:23 1274:19,20,24 1421:10 designated 1303:2 1303:4 designation 1102:4 1302:25 1350:9 designations 1300:7 1413:7 desirable 1290:22 desire 1388:15 despite 1150:4 1371:15 destroy 1284:12 detail 1069:9 1079:21 1080:21 1112:15 1126:21 1140:2 1222:22 1274:22 detailed 1088:17 1247:18 1280:6 detect 1176:17 1179:22 1286:13 1311:4 detectable 1177:8 1177:13 1181:6,11 1299:17 1347:2 detected 1096:13 1098:6 1152:25 1154:1 1158:16 1159:23 1166:1 1169:24,24 1182:2 1182:13,14 1190:6 1190:9 1350:14 1397:19 detecting 1176:4 1196:6 1326:25 1352:25 detection 1139:17 1144:11,14,19,20 1153:4,7 1191:16 1286:8 1312:1 1314:21 1315:17 1315:21 1316:19 1316:22 1317:10 1317:17 1318:12 detects 1361:2 deteriorate 1093:15 deteriorating 1166:3 1397:22 determ ination 1117:9 1156:8 1191:17 determ inations 1184:19 determ ine 1120:3 1120:22 1124:3 1128:19 1136:23 1143:11 1148:22 1200:25 1214:16 1215:8 1261:12,16 1286:8 1338:13 1339:1 1395:14 determ ined 1091:21 1281:24 determ ining 1128:8 1131:14 devalue 1240:20 develop 1296:25 1308:12 developed 1072:20 1087:21 1126:2,5 1137:9,21 1195:25 1326:19 1339:6 developing 1131:23 1145:10 developm ent 1080:23 1107:1 1237:13,16 1238:2 1238:5 1241:18 1247:11,12 1248:15 1250:1 1389:13,19 1398:13 d evelopm ents 1079:6 1251:15 develops 1087:19 deviation 1184:19 dialog 1382:19 dialogue 1154:20 1179:19 1206:4 1262:4 1380:19 1383:20 1394:21 1399:23 diam eter 1288:25 diam ond 1113:14 diaperene 1188:20 died 1215:8 1385:3 d ietary 1147:3 differ 1125:5 1184:11 difference 1116:18 1138:15 1144:12 1144:13 1263:5 differences 1096:11 1291:9 different 1070:5 1078:10,22 1085:8 1085:14 1086:12 1086:15 1089:18 1090:6 1104:11 1111:12 1113:18 1124:19,22 1125:7 1125:14 1138:8,13 1143:9 1159:1 1161:2 1184:7,13 1184:20 1189:19 1198:6 1200:4 1206:17 1211:9 1214:17 1223:11 1227:21 1231:3 1257:12 1258:19 1269:25 1282:3 1284:3 1291:21 1296:6,21 1339:22 1339:24 1341:17 1349:12 1350:8 1362:21 1370:19 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [different - doctor] Page 25 1391:13 1404:23 differential 1179:21 1184:14 1281:22 1282:15 1308:23 1370:12 differentiated 1102:5 differentiation 1103:1 1370:13 differing 1288:24 difficult 1143:24 difficulties 1110:16 1376:13 difficulty 1093:13 1291:12 diffraction 1085:8 1085:11,12 1092:1 1120:3 1128:4 1137:22 1139:1 1140:6,13,15 1141:5 1142:15 1143:14 1144:8,16 1149:8 1176:4,9 1176:15,16 1177:10 1184:10 1184:18 1200:19 1202:15,15 1271:8 1282:8 1291:10 1292:21 1308:24 1310:7 1313:19 1370:11 diffractom eter 1139:1 1281:21 diffractom etry 1288:14 dig 1271:10 1278:21 dilute 1184:13 d im ension 1099:13 dim inished 1184:16 d in n er 1081:11 1115:9 1124:14,16 direct 1302:14 directed 1148:23 1238:22 directive 1070:11 director 1164:20 1290:11 1366:9 1383:5 disadvantages 1315:10 disaggregated 1316:8,12 disagree 1175:12 1296:18 disagreed 1175:14 disagreem ent 1177:19 1179:15 1201:17 1204:7 1205:24 1299:14 disagrees 1394:12 disclose 1211:19 1372:17 disconnected 1340:4 discontinued 1119:21 discovered 1408:2 discrediting 1204:23 discrepancies 1184:2,4 discrete 1162/2,6 discuss 1107:14 1199:10,13 1213:24 1318:20 1362:16 discussed 1076:25 1078:18 1091:10 1097:18 1102:22 1105:11,18 1106:18 1149:22 1155:12 1194:4 1195:6 1201:10 1202:1 1212:17 1218:21 1222:22 1229:19 1253:23 1259:13 1308:15 1309:23 1318:18 1355:18 1376:10 1382:6,8,9,10,16 discusses 1217:25 1254:17 1329:15 1348:18 discussing 1156:13 1191:15 1288:5 1409:8 discussion 1106:17 1157:6 1176:10,14 1179:19 1196:9 1198:22 1199:3 1201:13,20 1203:8 1203:25 1204:18 1208:15 1212:20 1214:5 1218:14 1273:1,19 1375:14 1383:21 1394:16 1399:24 1405:3 discussions 1202:8 1213:18 1286:7 1375:8 disease 1221:13 1229:14,23,24 1230:1 1235:1 1236:3 1238:2 1359:13 1399:16 diseased 1214:17 diseases 1229:17 1254:18 1318:9 1372:14 disintegrating 1408:3 disperse 1319:10 dispersed 1350:6 dispersion 1106:3 dispersive 1099:4 displays 1089:2 displeased 1387:15 disposal 1221:16 1222:6 dispute 1268:4,23 dissatisfaction 1387:18 dissem inated 1162:2,6 distinction 1283:20 1305:18 distinguish 1078:6 1271:5 1315:15 distinguished 1222:5 d istrib u te 1307:23 d istrib u ted 1147:3 disturbance 1317:15 division 1059:1 1060:1 1061:1 1076:161191:13 1206:15 1243:10 1243:12,12,25 1244:1,5,6 1246:22 1248:23 1288:8 d laterra 1063:6 dobbins 1064:12 docket 1059:6 1060:6 1061:5 doctor 1086:9 1109:18 1137:24 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [doctor - dr] Page 26 1142:24 1388:24 1418:18 doctors 1241:14 1386:11,13,15,16 1386:21,24 1387:19 1388:3 docum ent 1075:14 1075:19,25 1076:4 1076:5,13,18,23 1077:5,11,14,19 1077:22 1079:24 1082:1,3,4 1083:2 1083:5 1084:11 1085:3 1086:18,19 1090:13 1091:4 1093:8 1094:12,22 1095:16,24 1096:7 1097:5,5,15 1098:8,11,13,23 1098:241100:12 1101:3,5,15,21 1102:12,22 1103:13,20 1105:11,12,17,19 1106:23 1121:7 1122:18,19 1133:20 1134:6 1140:18 1146:18 1147:25 1155:2,11 1157:17 1161:20 1168:8 1170:15 1173:9 1174:4,7 1177:24 1180:21 1188:12 1189:12 1192:3 1199:1,6 1200:8,13 1201:7 1203:7 1204:24 1213:22 1214:9,10 1214:12,20 1216:1 1216:12 1217:5,15 1221:3 1222:13,24 1223:13,14,16 1224:13 1226:6,8 1226:16 1232:7 1235:9 1241:5 1245:3 1252:21 1260:18 1267:17 1267:17 1275:19 1277:14 1284:17 1287:19 1293:11 1345:7 1355:20 1361:8 1390:8 1392:19,22 1402:18 d o cum entation 1075:12 1194:3 1197:5,13 1204:14 1207:5 1209:14 1278:7 1297:6 docum ents 1074:13,15,20 1075:9,18 1078:5 1078:15,17,20,21 1085:20 1100:6 1102:20 1103:6 1104:10,16 1123:20 1163:24 1170:15 1211:25 1212:1,3,10 1213:5,20 1223:1 1224:5 1228:7 1229:19 1244:21 1244:25 1245:2,17 1286:23 1296:5 1298:7,8 1329:9 1342:8 1381:1,22 1381:24 1394:21 1394:24 1413:21 dodged 1263:15 1421:7 doing 1066:11 1072:21 1074:18 1094:3 1129:7 1145:4 1151:9 1185:1 1213:19 1257:24 1258:1 1279:18 1286:6 1306:10 1319:9 1320:3 1336:25 1350:22 1355:16 1356:17 1391:11 1414:5 dolomite 1218:24 dom ain 1242:1 1383:2 dom estic 1110:14 1110:19,22 1111:2 1111:15 1130:22 1350:10 don 1251:8 donald 1250:25 dose 1072:4 1211:9,9 double 1237:4 douglas 1058:3 douillet 1193:18 1325:15 1419:11 doukas 1062:18 dozen 1071:5 dozens 1269:24,25 d r 1058:10 1065:23 1066:8 1074:6 1082:13 1083:17 1084:6 1087:2,25,25 1088:8 1089:9 1090:18 1091:8,13 1091:16 1092:4,18 1092:19,20,21,23 1092:24 1093:11 1093:13,17,21,22 1093:23,24,25,25 1108:11 1154:11 1155:4,5,9 1156:2 1156:17 1157:15 1157:15,24,25 1158:2,19 1160:12 1160:17 1161:10 1163:2,4 1173:20 1173:22,23 1174:1 1174:18,20,21 1175:21,24,25 1176:3,16,19,24 1177:1,4,5,5,7,17 1177:24 1178:5,9 1178:21 1179:16 1179:19 1180:15 1180:23 1182:17 1182:22,23 1183:2 1183:3,6,13,22,22 1183:24 1184:5 1185:1,3,4,5,6 1186:4,18 1187:6 1188:2 1189:2 1190:14 1191:1,2 1191:5,5,12,12,22 1204:19,23,25 1205:4 1209:23 1212:18 1213:9,19 1213:23,23 1214:14 1215:3 1216:11,14,24 1217:4,16,18 1219:4,6,7,21 1221:7,18 1222:2 1222:21 1224:6 1226:13 1227:15 1228:9 1231:4,5 1232:20 1236:16 1242:15,23 1255:6 1270:19 1271:4 1281:19 1284:2,13 1288:2,21 1289:2 1289:3,4 1290:10 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [dr - electron] Page 27 1290:14 1291:6,11 1296:14 1323:10 1323:16,16,20 1361:12 1362:6,10 1362:13,15,19,22 1363:3,3 1364:2 1372:21 1373:10 1383:18,18,19,22 1389:8 1392:23 1394:1,1,5,9,11,11 1394:12,14,22,22 1404:9 1415:3 1431:4,20 d ra ft 1218:1,17 1357:22,25 1364:12 1392:20 1392:23 1407:14 d raw 1143:24 d raw n 1395:4 dressings 1108:19 1108:23 drew 1312:25 1375:8 drilling 1220:3 d rin k e r 1064:3 drive 1064:4 1065:8 d ro p p ed 1405:1 d rs 1392:23 1394:18 d ru g 1071:21 1072:12 1139:14 1146:11,11 1147:18 1150:17 1155:5 1173:24 1174:11 1183:15 1192:21 1193:6,11 1193:13 drugs 1071:19 1072:5,6,8,10 1073:10,14 1145:23 1146:3 due 1288:23 1293:19,21 dum pster 1384:25 dundee 1066:19 dunst 1062:18 duplicate 1337:1 dust 1188:19 1211:10,10 1219:17 1220:11 1222:7 1229:21 1233:12,14 1235:2 1235:25 1237:20 1238:12 1339:7,10 1339:18 1341:18 1387:21 dustier 1233:9 dusting 1418:5 dusts 1220:15 1339:22,24 1371:23 dusty 1233:10 dying 1385:4,7 ________ e________ e 1062:1,1 1063:1 1063:1 1064:1,1 1065:1,1,3 1092:1 1235:18,18 1374:5 1415:1,12 e.g. 1099:13 1196:4 1317:15 1326:23 ea 1365:25 earlier 1083:3 1089:25 1120:14 1122:23 1124:10 1126:7 1127:14 1128:11 1145:7 1160:2 1180:10 1196:11 1204:5 1218:7 1229:19 1247:20 1270:12 1270:14,15 1277:22 1281:4,12 1292:8 1316:3 1321:24 1371:9 1390:24 early 1068:13 1109:19 1140:10 1154:19,21 1171:11 1173:18 1182:17 1185:21 1194:13,23 1195:9 1210:17 1229:21 1289:19 1300:1 1303:16 1321:7 1326:1 1380:13 1383:19 easier 1075:16 1130:23 1197:7 1350:1 1351:1 1401:19 easiest 1257:7 easily 1095:25 east 1171:18 ebba 1235:16 ec2n 1058:17 echoing 1274:10 edge 1202:24 1203:5 1280:3 edges 1202:25 ed in b u rg h 1362:1 1403:22 edit 1227:1,5 edited 1270:20 editor 1418:9 editorial 1264:7 1265:12 eds 1331:4,17 1332:7 1349:7 education 1155:16 effect 1166:22 1202:24 effective 1317:9 effects 1072:8 1211:17 1234:22 efficacy 1239:17 efforts 1082:24 1317:6 egilm an 1065:23 eierm ann 1183:2 1183:6,11,13 1322:22,25 1418:16 1419:3 eight 1233:14 1239:7 1384:16 eighteen 1358:11 eighty 1293:10 either 1076:19 1077:6 1120:12 1148:24 1153:1,11 1164:22 1181:12 1222:11 1226:24 1233:4 1244:14 1245:4,8,13 1250:5 1265:7 1266:16 1285:20 1300:24 1405:8,20 1406:20 1409:13 ekeral 1340:12 electron 1083:13 1083:19,21,23,24 1083:24 1084:9,9 1097:23 1099:4 1101: 10,11 1137:22 1139:5,10 1139:15 1140:7,13 1140:16 1141:10 1142:15 1150:3 1152:17 1153:2,6 1153:25 1165:15 1176:11 1177:10 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [electron - essentially] Page 28 1177:10 1205:7 1221:15,17 1281:5 1292:22 1308:24 1310:8,11 1349:7 1353:14 1356:15 1356:18 1370:12 1370:13 elevated 1257:15 eleven 1384:17 elim inate 1377:19 elizabeth 1063:12 ellis 1062:8 elongate 1272:3 1273:17 1274:1 1368:15 elongated 1099:17 1274:13,18 else's 1268:12 1406:2 em 1141:21 em ail 1262:9 1374:23 1421:6 1423:17 em barrassment 1262:22 employed 1128:23 1394:19 employee 1069:14 1126:13 1133:5,7 1212:7 1239:1 1323:1 1374:10 1430:12,14 employees 1215:7 1225:13 1226:18 1226:18 1227:20 1229:2 1231:4 1234:16 1235:23 1235:25 1237:19 1241:9 em ployer 1067:2 em v 1349:3 1422:24 enables 1071:1 1292:22 enclose 1362:14 enclosed 1196:2 1326:21 encloses 1166:19 enclosing 1425:8 encompassed 1134:3 ended 1254:15 1389:9 endorse 1264:21 endorsed 1266:2 endorsem ent 1265:22 endorses 1264:16 1264:18 endorsing 1264:23 endotherm s 1184:15 endurance 1250:11 enforceable 1147:17 enforces 1147:19 england 1091:24 1130:7 english 1099:19 1184:23 1192:10 1218:1,4 1231:20 enrico 1231:11 ensure 1068:2,7 1070:6 1082:24 1095:1,8,13 1112:9 1122:7,11 1126:5,19,23 1127:1,10,10,23 1128:6 1129:7,16 1130:4 1131:24 1134:5,11 1143:14 1151:5 1189:20 1192:18 1210:2 1241:9 1247:19 1287:2 1313:10 1347:10 en su red 1242:2 ensuring 1168:24 entering 1090:5 entire 1165:24 1255:3 1397:17 1398:4 entirely 1263:16 entirety 1097:16 entitled 1155:25 1172:6 1230:19 1345:10 1356:24 1362:7 1386:13 1388:2 1402:20 entity 1347:17,18 enum erated 1181:7 env 1390:10,14 1405:24 en vironm ent 1206:19 1231:22 1233:8 1339:2 en v iro n m en tal 1100:8 1191:1,11 1197:3,10 1234:9 1253:20 1361:19 1402:7 1423:9 ep 1317:6 epa 1166:22 1317:14,19 1330:11 epidemiological 1214:15 1215:15 1216:2 1237:11,25 1338:17 1427:17 1427:21 epidemiologist 1338:9 epidemiologists 1261:13 epidemiology 1214:23 1215:22 1261:4,12 epilepsy 1072:6 equant 1099:17 equation 1342:22 equipm ent 1140:10 1141:19 1141:23,25 1142:2 1142:9,14 1166:4 1166:13 1221:22 1221:23 1222:7 1248:12 1249:22 1249:23 1397:22 1416:18 erin 1064:17 erin.carpenter 1064:19 e rra ta 1431:1 erroneously 1179:6 erro rs 1203:11 ertificate 1293:23 esophagus 1401:4 esq 1062:3,4,9,13 1062:18 1063:3,3 1063:4,9,15,20,20 1064:3,8,12,17,22 1065:3,8 essence 1201:19 essentially 1070:14 1072:12 1072:23 1081:9 1084:7 1085:17 1088:18 1090:5 1092:6 1095:7 1102:13 1115:19 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [exclude - externally] Page 30 exclude 1237:10 excluded 1390:1 exhaustive 1083:12 exhibit 1075:23 1077:13 1080:1 1081:25 1082:7 1084:14 1086:20 1086:22 1088:7 1090:15 1094:15 1095:19 1097:6 1098:10 1100:13 1101:2,4,19 1103:21 1105:10 1106:20 1114:13 1114:14 1118:1,2 1118:16 1121:4,6 1122:25 1123:24 1124:24 1133:3 1137:24 1138:3 1139:24 1140:1 1146:21 1148:1 1150:21 1154:23 1157:18 1161:8 1163:23 1169:10 1172:4 1174:5 1178:14 1180:14 1183:9 1186:3 1188:13 1189:11 1191:7 1193:3 1199:15 1204:16 1213:14,15,17 1214:1 1216:4,5 1217:141222:14 1223:23 1225:19 1228:18 1230:17 1232:6 1234:6 1235:10 1236:14 1250:20,21 1254:2 1255:25 1259:7,9 1262:8 1271:20 1272:10,11 1277:9 1281:15 1284:16 1287:20 1289:23 1289:24 1290:7 1293:3,4 1297:11 1298:25 1299:1 1300:6 1304:18 1310:18 1312:13 1312:14 1321:6 1322:21 1323:7 1324:23 1329:11 1340:10 1341:1,2 1345:12,13 1347:20,21 1356:22,23 1361:10,11 1365:20,21 1374:18 1387:7 1397:7 1415:14 1416:1 1417:1 1418:1 1419:1 1420:1 1421:1 1422:1 1423:1 1424:1,8 1425:1 1426:1 1427:1 1428:1 exhibits 1271:19 1381:21 1387:8 1424:6 exist 1265:7 existed 1194:21 existence 1135:15 1237:3 1239:22 existing 1252:15 1317:12 exotherm s 1184:15 expect 1200:23 1292:2,7 1322:7 1375:25 expectation 1133:17 expected 1207:3 1207:13 1208:11 1214:17 1224:23 1258:17 1261:9,17 expects 1216:22 expended 1284:2 expensive 1141:19 1221:21 experience 1070:25 1142:16 1202:6 1398:20 1404:23 experienced 1087:23 experim ent 1336:22 experim ental 1351:21 expert 1079:9 1127:20 1128:10 1179:15 1271:16 1281:12 1290:15 1292:23 1318:9 1377:7,12 expertise 1087:16 1087:19,21 1140:12 1141:20 1142:9 1145:11 1198:2 1404:23 experts 1118:25 1140:12 1196:21 1198:1,15 1214:23 1215:15 1216:21 1217:8 1238:17 1281:6 1313:16 1375:8 1386:2,2 expires 1431:25 explain 1070:13 1085:3 1098:20 1138:13 1217:23 1394:1 explained 1215:4 1387:17 1388:15 explains 1194:24 explanation 1092:19 explanatory 1220:4 exploitation 1087:7 1157:25 exploratory 1151:15 exposed 1219:17 1220:10,14 1233:6 1233:12 1235:25 1236:7 1237:19 1238:12 1419:18 1419:22 exposure 1197:2,9 1197:11 1231:18 1232:23 1233:3,14 1235:2 1237:15 1238:11 1257:5 1315:2 1317:5 1318:10 1338:20 1339:7 1398:11 exposures 1197:3 1317:21 1318:4,7 expressed 1151:3 extend 1123:22 extended 1325:19 1325:21 extension 1100:21 extensive 1209:1 extent 1179:17 1341:16 1382:13 1413:20 external 1145:12 externally 1237:24 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [extra - ferry] Page 31 ex tra 1361:3 ex tract 1367:3 extrem ely 1341:5 eye 1196:17______ _________f ________ f 1065:13,13 1322:15 1330:23 1332:2 1333:7 f.d. 1422:11 face 1192:8 1375:15,15 1378:16,21 1379:20 1418:6 facilitate 1080:23 facilities 1129:5,7 1381:7 facility 1109:8 1166:13 fact 1076:23 1092:22 1100:25 1102:24 1116:3,25 1143:20 1168:1 1179:9 1192:3 1201:23 1215:14 1244:20 1246:8 1258:25 1270:19 1271:2,20 1272:1 1274:8 1283:2 1299:13 1303:10 1305:6 1368:17 1386:4 1391:12 1409:1 factories 1225:12 factors 1169:17 1200:25 factory 1121:25 1122:8 1167:23 1168:19 1229:4 1247:24 1296:24 facts 1216:19 1217:9 faculty 1088:1 failed 1327:16 failings 1315:13 failure 1251:24 fair 1122:10 1151:25 1192:17 1213:1 1218:9 fairly 1208:4 1247:18 1347:23 fairness 1298:8 1320:19 1344:12 1392:1 fall 1123:18 1216:24 false 1314:4,7,16 1316:1 1367:10,15 1368:22 fam iliar 1079:5 1093:21 1117:8 1126:15 1173:19 1174:6 1192:22 1230:18 1232:7 1233:20,24 1235:9 1236:13 1244:4 1342:14 1380:23 1394:15,16 fam iliarity 1212:3 fam ilies 1239:7 fam ily 1239:15 1379:25 fa r 1114:24 1123:20 1160:12 1171:18 1245:16 1299:15 1333:3 1339:25 1363:9 1364:1 fashion 1221:6 1238:22 fd 1083:10 1156:2 1299:3 fda 1090:20,23 1091:1,2,7,14 1092:4 1093:24 1094:2,6 1117:15 1117:18,20 1118:11,17,24 1150:23,25 1151:9 1151:11,15,20,23 1152:1,5,13 1153:21 1154:17 1154:20,25 1155:9 1155:10,15,18 1157:3,4,9 1174:20 1175:19 1175:24 1176:22 1177:14,19,25 1178:7 1183:2,6 1183:23 1184:25 1189:6,12,17 1190:21 1191:14 1191:21 1192:12 1192:14,21 1193:13,17,24 1194:16,22,25 1196:9,13 1197:2 1209:5,23 1210:4 1210:6,22,24 1220:19 1273:2,20 1273:23,24 1277:11,15 1278:2 1278:9,12,15,20 1279:19 1281:15 1283:2,5 1288:9 1290:12 1302:25 1313:8,8 1318:18 1318:23,24 1320:16 1322:15 1323:7,17 1324:2 1325:5,14,18 1326:8 1327:7,16 1327:16 1335:1,5 1335:10,14 1336:3 1336:12 1342:10 1371:6 1376:4,6 1377:21 1383:20 1417:3,6 1418:16 1419:9 1421:11,18 1422:19 1425:15 fd a's 1117:8 1154:11 1178:25 1194:12 1208:23 1210:1 1274:2 fear 1152:8 feasible 1248:6 1317:8 features 1117:22 1121:10 1122:3 feb ru ary 1122:21 1178:25 1216:6,12 1250:25 1252:3,24 1272:22 federal 1076:11 1368:14 feedback 1068:23 1131:9 feel 1112:11 1114:2,10 1120:9 1120:13,19 1121:9 1121:20 1126:8 1132:20 1136:6,18 1268:21 1303:23 1304:4 1406:8 feeling 1081:15 1120:19 1126:12 1300:9 feels 1114:4 1299:9 fell 1179:11 felt 1122:1 1164:1 1335:13 ferry 1250:25 1251:8 1420:20 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [fiber - fire] Page 32 fiber 1085:8 1123:16,19 1190:5 1279:8,9,14,15,23 1279:24,25 1280:4 1280:5 1284:19 1288:24 1307:14 1330:23 1331:7,11 1332:2,9,15,23 1333:7,14,21,25 1354:1,5 fibers 1079:2 1096:18 1123:22 1165:16 1186:16 1186:17 1187:5,16 1187:17 1188:12 1188:18 1190:4 1278:13 1279:7 1280:7 1282:22 1292:19 1300:24 1301:11,14,14,14 1301:18 1302:9 1303:25 1304:3 1308:7 1314:13 1342:16,17 1343:10,12,15,17 1343:18,25 1344:3 1344:21,22 1354:13 1371:2 1407:6 1408:16 1409:6 fibrous 1096:14 1096:16 1097:24 1099:16,23 1100:1 1100:2 1106:5,9 1139:6 1162:15 1184:9 1196:4 1218:25 1267:4,8 1268:8,14 1272:9 1279:11 1280:1,2 1283:14 1318:5 1323:24 1324:4 1326:23 1327:11 1327:24 1351:2,15 1352:1,1,6,7,7,12 1352:15,16 1353:5 1353:9 1354:15 1365:7 1369:13,13 1370:20 1405:25 field 1073:4 1115:6,6,16 1189:13,16 1216:21 1251:25 1281:7 1419:6 fields 1307:11 fifth 1064:8 fifty 1249:7 1305:25 figueroa 1063:10 1064:18 figure 1187:7 1213:12 1353:6 figured 1414:6 figures 1352:2 1353:3 file 1070:15,17 1090:19 1220:19 1425:13 files 1233:18 1241:22 1425:4 filing 1196:24 filler 1116:6,9 filling 1137:2 1167:241168:19 1168:20 filtered 1136:12 final 1070:22 1083:4 1089:10 1149:25 1177:15 1180:15 1181:23 1196:18,19 1205:9 1216:161221:24 1227:7 1272:4 1275:24 1276:2 1289:25 1371:10 1373:22 1374:2 1378:11,23 finalized 1336:22 finally 1156:5 1370:10 financially 1430:13 find 1070:4 1075:4 1085:7 1099:22 1120:25 1143:19 1153:10 1160:6,7 1166:11 1172:21 1186:6 1188:16 1200:24 1201:16 1219:25 1223:21 1224:20 1230:5 1235:4 1241:22 1262:2 1267:1 1269:22 1278:16 1280:2 1283:17 1284:3,7,11 1285:13,17 1286:19 1292:17 1296:19 1334:10 1334:14 1345:5 1373:3 1393:22 1395:17 1410:18 1410:25 1429:5 finding 1105:22 1106:6 1143:21 1172:17 1175:13 1200:14 1205:15 1219:22 1266:24 1276:16 1283:12 1283:13,25 1396:11 1410:2,7 1418:10 findings 1076:14 1079:22 1154:13 1178:10 1179:5 1183:3,25 1186:5 1199:4,10 1201:6 1202:2 1218:5 1219:6,8,20 1224:15 1226:21 1227:2 1231:13 1237:25 1271:17 1397:2,11 1412:11 1412:16 finds 1296:16 1299:16 fine 1121:23 1122:5 1136:2 1138:23 1139:6 1165:16 1262:19 1291:24 1304:9 1339:25 1341:13 1421:7 finely 1339:13 fineness 1117:23 1127:6 1135:6 1169:19 fines 1272:7 1300:21,22,23,24 1301:4 1302:3,9 1367:18 finest 1082:25 finish 1254:20 finished 1131:18 1135:24 1136:22 1154:7,14 1156:14 1167:16 1171:20 1294:14 1295:15 1296:25 1322:5 1347:3 1376:8,15 1376:19 1377:20 1377:24 finishing 1135:22 fire 1086:9 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [firm - found] Page 33 firm 1261:16 first 1066:11 1069:41075:14,19 1087:1 1088:19 1092:15 1096:4,8 1097:18 1098:17 1098:22 1103:23 1104:1 1105:17 1114:18,20 1126:23 1127:12 1131:17 1143:13 1165:10 1166:1 1181:25 1193:5 1194:23,24 1199:11 1207:20 1208:3 1213:22 1214:8 1215:4 1218:18,22 1227:23 1231:4 1234:17 1241:12 1241:16 1254:3,13 1256:17,24 1289:15 1293:7 1294:20 1311:1 1318:22 1332:22 1333:3,24 1344:24 1345:5 1348:1,8 1369:9 1380:1,9 1384:2 1387:8 1397:19 1400:20 1404:8 fit 1130:11 five 1108:6 1109:16 1112:1 1156:20 1209:18 1246:21 1248:7,17 1340:20,22 1358:19 1400:8 1403:25 1404:7,13 1405:13 fixed 1319:9 flag 1077:18 flagged 1256:16 1276:1 flat 1307:24 fleet 1065:24 flight 1222:10 flip 1092:11 1125:3 1150:5 1397:10 1423:23 1424:3 float 1340:16 1371:11 floor 1063:4 1064:13 florham 1064:4 flotation 1136:7 1367:6 1368:4 1369:12 flotations 1368:1,3 flour 1292:11 flow 1410:12 fluorene 1359:15 1359:16,17,18,21 fluoride 1359:20 fluorine 1359:22 1359:22 foam ing 1136:9 focus 1096:6 1183:19 1404:24 focused 1094:20 foia 1418:8 1419:15 foley 1063:14 foleymansfield.c... 1063:17 folks 1131:7 1224:5 1273:16 follow 1141:6 1150:3 1155:9 1205:6 1224:10 1228:9,13,19 1236:15,22 1241:9 1267:2 1269:21 1419:19 followed 1093:24 1098:25 1151:11 1196:17 1236:24 1404:8 following 1088:20 1095:2 1148:22 1177:9 1183:21 1202:8 1217:21,22 follows 1155:13 font 1186:25 fontana 1078:4 1158:9 1246:10 food 1075:4 1116:13 1117:8,9 1117:16 1118:23 1119:12,14 1139:14 1147:2,18 1149:17 1150:17 1155:5 1173:24 1174:11 1183:14 1192:21 1193:5,11 1193:13 1273:3,3 1273:6,7 1303:5 1421:12 foods 1075:4 1116:13 1117:12 1117:19 1155:5 foolishly 1186:13 force 1261:19 forced 1233:9 foregoing 1429:3 1430:5,8 forget 1245:22 forgive 1228:8 1380:6 forgot 1348:25 form 1093:2 1096:14,16 1137:5 1196:4 1215:12 1273:5,7 1280:1 1283:21 1326:23 1363:9,10 1364:6 1364:8 1365:2 1373:12 1407:21 form alize 1094:25 fo rm at 1224:11 1407:15 form ed 1090:7 form er 1184:10 1323:1 form s 1106:5,9 1315:161318:5 form ula 1119:5 1293:14 1422:5 forth 1261:24 1263:6 forty 1358:19 forw ard 1094:10 1137:20 forw arded 1261:18 foster 1082:14,15 1424:24 found 1109:19 1110:17 1117:5 1152:9 1153:13 1157:16 1158:14 1159:19 1162:1,5 1162:9,14 1166:15 1167:7 1172:23 1173:15 1175:8,10 1176:6 1177:8,13 1179:10 1180:3,9 1184:5,6,21 1185:14,16 1186:8 1186:9,11 1188:11 1188:17 1189:3 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [found - general] Page 34 1190:6,9 1196:20 1200:6,6,20 1226:23 1235:1,6 1235:8 1238:10 1267:3 1270:18 1276:4,12,13,21 1278:1,12,18 1283:6,7,9,16 1286:24 1296:6,9 1298:21 1307:5 1318:7 1324:3,5 1324:14 1329:19 1351:3,20 1353:5 1358:19,22,23 1369:13 1378:19 1387:14 1406:1 1408:17 1409:5,20 1410:16 1418:21 founded 1108:15 four 1067:10 1073:9 1109:15 1229:10 1241:6 1244:11 1248:4 1279:17 1286:18 1335:8 1340:12 1371:4 1382:11 1401:14 fourth 1224:17,20 fra 1418:3 fraction 1349:15 1349:17 1350:6 1353:6 fractions 1307:16 1307:16 fragile 1367:20 fragm ents 1204:19 1367:21 fragrance 1119:8 1143:3 1196:1 1247:22 1326:20 1367:2 france 1347:15 fra n k 1416:12 1425:17 frazier 1062:13 1142:20 1340:4 free 1094:9 1107:24 1108:4 1117:1 1121:23 1123:21 1124:4 1126:7,20 1133:19 1134:6,14,23 1135:3,21 1156:23 1159:16 1166:23 1181:5 1196:3 1231:1,18 1260:4 1260:5,6 1269:14 1270:24 1273:7 1326:22 1375:22 1395:21 1398:8 1410:12 1423:19 freedom 1098:19 1099:1 1112:12 1117:23,24 1152:11 french 1234:12,15 1234:16,22 1235:7 1420:4 frequency 1134:17 1172:11 1294:22,23 1295:6 1295:7 1395:7 1396:3 fresh 1153:20 friday 1058:12 1429:4 1430:5 friendly 1201:17 fro n t 1087:4 1225:15 1229:9 1258:10 1278:4 1294:6 1363:23 1400:23 frost 1062:9 1064:3 1066:7 1068:22 1082:7,11 1086:8 1103:11,16 1104:6,13 1105:1 1106:15 1108:10 1115:2 1131:8 1138:1 1142:18,23 1154:2,5,10 1162:24 1168:7,11 1172:2 1209:18,22 1213:13,15 1225:18 1227:12 1227:14,25 1228:3 1228:6 1242:12,15 1254:24 1255:16 1256:16 1259:24 1263:22 1271:20 1272:15 1275:9 1283:2 1292:16 1302:23 1322:21 1323:8 1340:9 1345:1,24 1385:18 1389:7 1399:4 1407:23 1411:13 1412:21,25 1413:20 1414:7 1415:4,7,9 full 1069:13 1155:13 1222:11 1335:25 1336:14 1365:12 1372:20 fun 1240:8 1385:19 function 1205:14 funded 1372:17 funds 1284:2 fu rth e r 1093:9 1141:9 1179:23 1181:18 1184:17 1399:4,6 1412:21 1430:12 furtherm ore 1200:22 fu rth ers 1413:16 fu tu re 1080:23 1178:8 1196:23 1251:13________ ________ g g 1085:6 1118:5 1214:14 1228:23 1228:23 1235:18 1251:1 1276:5 1277:25 1278:5 1413:8 gaffrey 1062:18 1242:22,25 1250:11 1399:6 1415:5 gain 1216:20 gam ble 1065:11 gam bles 1071:9 gary 1375:9 gas 1359:22,24,25 1360:1 gasper 1376:4 gassetts 1413:9 gather 1218:4 gathering 1202:10 gavin 1213:23 1217:6 general 1079:23 1098:20 1099:6 1115:61199:20 1201:15 1236:3 1237:1 1241:8 1276:23,23 1288:20 1303:17 1304:25 1318:15 1318:16 1321:3 1335:17 1337:16 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [generally - going] Page 35 generally 1117:1 1118:9,12,18,21 1118:25 1122:13 1124:19,20 1141:18 1169:7 1170:18,19 1178:24 1184:7 1204:6,23 1225:10 1267:19 1302:24 1303:11 1309:5,6 1319:7 1320:25 1321:24 1335:23 generate 1317:20 generated 1169:6 genesis 1200:23 genetic 1218:23 gentlem an 1128:17 1173:19 g entlem en 1074:21 gently 1307:24 geological 1200:22 1220:18 1427:11 geologist 1079:9 1079:19,22 1089:12 geologists 1079:5 1079:15 1127:20 1128:10 1129:3 geology 1079:3 1080:5,21 1087:22 1090:7 1113:20 1128:13 1199:19 1396:19 1424:21 georgia 1168:19 1170:5 germ any 1347:15 getting 1073:13 1111:8 1131:9 1145:10 1217:8 1352:13,15 1368:7 gf 1372:12 gi 1107:11 giant 1292:15 gillette 1174:16 git 1369:23 give 1073:6 1074:3 1075:21 1079:12 1097:17 1120:18 1126:18 1136:5,17 1141:22 1148:8 1190:3 1195:11 1197:5 1220:4 1264:22 1271:7 1272:14,17 1274:8 1275:2 1316:1 1320:2 1338:21 1361:8 1365:23 1373:13 1392:15 1392:16 1404:22 1405:11 given 1071:24 1085:15 1102:18 1108:12 1113:2 1174:21 1204:10 1251:4,16 1255:7 1268:19 1275:1 1403:19,23 1404:21 gives 1081:14 1123:2 1139:2 1184:18 1307:1 1328:16 1348:17 glad 1320:21 glass 1143:18 1144:7,12,15 1307:22 g laxosm ithkline 1064:25 global 1170:24 1173:3 1374:24 1423:17 globally 1112:22 go 1069:25 1070:3 1074:15 1076:3 1083:25 1090:11 1103:10 1104:24 1126:1 1128:7 1135:24 1139:13 1141:8 1146:6,11 1160:25 1163:24 1168:7 1170:14 1179:22 1181:18 1189:18 1195:3 1199:9 1201:5 1213:6 1222:7 1225:9 1229:18 1230:2 1239:8 1242:12 1249:3,12 1250:12,22 1256:15 1259:4,8 1263:12,21 1266:3 1266:23 1267:14 1274:21 1275:3 1280:9 1293:8 1297:13 1300:18 1313:25,25 1315:8 1323:12 1325:1 1326:16 1327:11 1331:25 1335:16 1337:4,14 1342:24 1342:24 1348:23 1353:17 1354:10 1358:5 1360:3,7 1360:20 1361:21 1363:21 1369:11 1374:21 1383:9 1387:2,9 1399:2 1402:17 1404:14 1408:12 goal 1373:1,3 goes 1093:8 1108:25 1116:11 1143:21 1158:12 1159:21 1200:8 1205:12 1207:24 1215:2 1219:5 1220:13 1221:14 1225:25 1299:13 1334:17,20,22 1341:9,18 1370:7 1372:15 going 1066:13 1069:8 1072:17 1074:10,16 1075:15 1076:3 1077:2,11,18 1079:21,24 1086:19,24 1092:101094:12 1100:20 1103:5,9 1114:12 1117:25 1119:3 1125:10 1126:11,20,24 1127:7,20 1133:1 1137:20 1140:2 1142:19 1160:10 1164:4 1169:8 1171:23 1172:2 1173:9,11 1174:4 1178:12 1197:12 1198:9 1209:17 1210:14 1213:16 1213:20 1222:20 1222:24 1232:5 1233:7,12 1235:17 1242:16,17 1246:19 1250:18 1253:10 1259:3,4 1272:16,17 1275:5 1277:5,8,23 1278:21 1280:10 1280:12 1281:14 1287:24 1291:21 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [going - hand] Page 36 1301:23 1304:4 1309:4 1320:21 1332:11 1335:3 1348:23 1350:25 1351:9 1352:10 1357:9 1367:9 1369:1,8 1370:2,9 1373:13 1381:16 1386:17 1389:8 1390:9 1393:4 1397:7 1403:12 1404:22 1405:7 good 1066:8,9 1075:1,5 1110:1 1120:9,13 1130:25 1137:18 1142:8,16 1154:2 1215:23 1217:10,11,12 1219:21,24 1227:4 1252:12 1275:16 1287:17 1291:1 1302:22 1311:20 1320:21 1336:25 1340:5 1357:9 governm ent 1147:19 1206:16 1290:18 governm ental 1076:5 1147:13,14 1150:15 1267:17 gowns 1068:17 g rad e 1097:3 1101:25 1102:1,1 1102:1,1,1,2,3,6 1102:16,17,18,24 1102:25 1103:2 1109:20 1111:17 1111:18,18,21,22 1112:2,10,24,25 1113:1 1116:25 1127:3 1132:16,17 1132:18 1146:15 1146:17 1147:7,8 1147:23 1151:16 1219:1 1227:19,19 1232:4 1269:13 1293:14 1300:10 1300:11 1367:1 1376:1 1409:9 1411:24 1412:15 1413:15 grades 1117:3,6 1251:16 grad u al 1251:18 grains 1203:21 gram 1278:13 1282:25 1343:21 1343:25 1344:3,21 1344:22 g ran d 1063:15 grandchildren 1239:8 grandkids 1384:12,16 g ra n t 1372:19,21 g ran th am 1084:23 1425:6 g ra n u la r 1099:17 1120:18 1272:6 g raphic 1160:2 gras 1118:4,6,7,14 1302:24 1303:3,6 1416:3 g reat 1083:11 1158:17 1241:25 1252:11 1310:17 1358:11,13 1362:25 1367:17 1391:17 g reater 1099:14 1107:22 1262:23 1268:13 1319:19 1320:12 1321:4 1376:14 1387:21 green 1198:22,23 1199:4,9,14,18 1200:7,14 1201:9 1202:19 1204:2,8 1351:1 1427:11 greenstone 1062:3 g re e r 1065:8 grid 1319:15,18,24 1320:3,11,15 1321:1,3 1330:20 grids 1319:11,15 grieger 1425:3 1426:3 grittiness 1121:24 g ritty 1122:1 groseclose 1063:15 g ro u n d 1115:21 1115:22 1127:5 1136:2,8 1168:18 1233:11 1350:9,10 grounds 1264:21 1305:16 group 1065:11,12 1065:14 1067:18 1101:12 1115:14 1143:2,4 1163:10 1163:17 1200:7 1202:16 1207:17 1215:10 1217:1 1226:18 1231:3,6 1235:7 1236:6 1249:15 1250:1 1313:9 1404:22 groups 1208:8 1325:5 grow ths 1184:9 guarantee 1368:15 guess 1092:12 1109:23 1148:5 1186:19 1287:17 1352:18 guessing 1248:14 guestim ate 1413:5 guidance 1123:2 guide 1123:1 guiding 1241:8 gum 1116:15 guys 1257:19,24 1282:18 1297:25 1327:15 1329:9 1350:22 1357:7 1370:6 1376:24 ________ h________ h 1415:12 hai 1361:3 h alf 1073:9 1167:20 1249:11 1258:20 1294:15 1403:15,18 1404:19 1407:5 halfway 1326:17 ham m ondsville 1080:6,15,19 1081:2,19,21 1085:22 1097:25 1426:4 hand 1079:24 1114:121117:25 1121:4 1124:23 1125:10 1133:1 1139:25 1144:4,4 1144:15 1171:23 1172:2 1174:4 1178:12 1180:13 1183:8 1189:9 1227:11 1232:5 1234:4 1252:15 1274:7 1287:24 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [hand - historically] Page 37 1293:7 1295:21 1346:23 1387:9 1390:9 1393:4 1397:7 1402:24,24 1402:25 handed 1075:23 1077:13 1080:1 1081:25 1084:14 1086:22 1090:15 1094:15 1095:19 1097:6 1098:10 1100:13 1105:10 1106:20 1140:1 1146:18 1147:25 1161:61188:12 1191:5 1199:15 1204:16 1214:1 1216:5 1217:14 1222:14 1223:23 1324:21 handing 1150:19 1154:22 1230:15 handled 1074:14 handling 1394:13 hands 1401:24 hand w ritten 1161:17 1328:24 1360:4,8 hang 1131:5 happened 1093:8 1111:11 1379:1 1391:5 happening 1382:18,21 1383:3 1384:4 happens 1332:21 happy 1103:16,18 1362:16 1395:3 1400:16 harassm ent 1362:19 1363:5 1364:3 h a rd 1113:11,13 h ard est 1113:14 hardness 1113:10 h ard y 1058:16 1062:13 h a rm 1072:1 harm ful 1120:10 1120:12 1264:4 harm less 1180:2,5 h arris 1064:22 harrisbeach.com 1064:24 h a rry 1076:15 haw kins 1063:9 h a z a rd 1177:21 1179:1 1192:15 1194:20 1242:7 1365:16,17 hazardous 1314:13 1317:21 1325:19 he 1107:13 1413:3 1413:7,12 head 1067:16,18 1068:17 1109:5 headed 1178:21 heading 1076:10 1123:18 1147:16 1323:18 heads 1187:6 health 1076:11,17 1126:2 1155:16 1179:1 1194:20 1195:1 1225:13 1227:20 1231:25 1232:18 1234:22 1235:24 1236:5 1238:19,23 1253:20 1315:22 1316:23 1317:13 1402:7 1424:11,12 h ear 1410:6 heard 1068:10 1244:12 1312:21 hearing 1068:23 hears 1370:4 h e a rt 1071:21 1072:5 1146:3 heavily 1371:23 heavy 1135:6 1169:19 1305:15 heinz 1183:11 held 1168:18 1214:13 1216:24 1362:1 1381:8 hell 1187:19 hello 1242:23,24 help 1077:22 1129:10,10 1198:6 1301:15 1361:8 1392:5 1410:13 helpful 1138:9 helps 1376:25 1390:15 hem atite 1367:19 henderson 1064:12 1204:23 1205:7,10,20 1206:2 1216:25 henderson's 1204:19,25 1205:5 herew ith 1155:12 herfo rd 1058:3,3 1063:13,18 1064:6 1064:10 1431:3 herrington 1063:19 hey 1131:7 1270:7 1370:4 hhs 1421:19 hhs00000018 1419:10 hide 1152:8 1220:23 high 1082:20 1087:22 1109:20 1112:25 1115:6 1116:24 1136:15 1138:20 1139:8 1199:23 1219:1 1233:7 1235:1 1237:20 1238:12 1261:12 1281:22 1282:15 1296:25 1299:9 1301:12 1312:1 1314:21 1315:21 1316:22 1367:1,4 1376:1 1396:13 1419:18 higher 1115:17 1195:23 1207:24 1219:15 1320:2,7 1395:20 highest 1136:10 1217:7 highlighted 1276:2 1293:17 1297:14 1299:23 1323:11 1348:3 hildick 1213:9,23 1216:14 1217:6,17 1368:14 1427:16 1427:20 1428:3 hills 1415:16,20 h irin g 1198:1 historic 1237:23 1246:10 historical 1383:9 1396:20 1397:11 historically 1119:9,24 1243:11 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [historically - illustrated] Page 38 1243:13 1267:11 1317:19 1389:12 histories 1218:6 history 1074:8 1128:25 1293:22 1346:2 hm m 1278:16 1281:8 1285:10 1306:6 1347:24 1357:24 1359:23 1364:15 1380:17 1392:4 hoagland 1062:18 hoaglandlongo.c... 1062:20 hold 1066:20 1067:11 1125:12 1363:12 1370:1,1 1388:6 1403:12,12 1403:16,16,16 holding 1322:6 holdings 1065:12 1065:13 holes 1119:13,17 holmes 1144:6 hom e 1399:2 homes 1239:9 honest 1138:5 1143:23 1373:13 hop 1401:20 hoped 1088:25 1352:24 hopkins 1058:10 1066:3,8,15 1074:6 1108:11 1154:11 1209:23 1242:15,23 1389:8 1415:3 1429:3,12 1430:5 1431:4,20 hospital 1068:15 1073:13 1221:16 1222:9 hospitals 1109:1 host 1220:10,16,18 hot 1240:15 ho u r 1127:18 1142:19 1233:14 1258:20 1291:6 1403:15,18 1404:19,20 hours 1266:16 house 1140:11 1198:9 1224:5,10 1384:24 houston 1062:10 1062:15 hp ty law .co m 1063:11 h r 1366:6 hum an 1073:13 1260:23 1261:3 1304:7,8 hum ans 1325:19 h u n d red 1071:5 1087:18 1175:2 1246:25 1248:10 1319:24 1321:2 1381:21 1395:23 1395:24 hundreds 1173:14 1197:13 h u rst 1065:3 hygiene 1076:16 1225:11 1253:15 1361:25 hypotheses 1275:10 hypothesis 1264:22 1275:1,8 1275:14,16 1276:15 hypothesize 1270:5,6 1275:5 hypothetical 1238:25 1284:5 1335:4 1344:5,7 1344:16 hypothetically 1304:1 1335:15 1344:23_________ ______________ l ______________ i.e. 1288:25 iarc 1260:9 idea 1110:1 1138:10 1207:16 1246:23 1265:6 1275:16 1311:20 1377:9 ideal 1307:3 1346:13 ideas 1094:9 identical 1147:9 1227:7 1310:5 identification 1 0 9 8 :1 4 1101:4,19 1103:13 1114:14 1118:2 1121:6 1124:24 1133:3 1138:3 1146:21 1148:1 1150:21 1154:23 1155:20 1157:18 1161:8 1163:23 1169:10 1172:4 1174:5 1178:14 1180:14 1183:9 1186:3 1188:13 1189:11 1191:7 1193:3 1200:9 1201:1 1202:16 1203:17 1228:18 1230:17 1232:6 1234:6 1235:10 1236:14 1250:21 1259:7 1262:8 1272:11 1287:20 1290:7 1293:4 1297:11 1299:1 1312:14 1314:14 1329:11 1341:2 1345:13 1347:21 1356:23 1361:11 1365:21 1374:18 1426:8 identified 1107:11 1107:12 1157:14 1176:1 1202:15 1277:22 1291:8 1292:1 1297:17 1317:17 1331:22 1333:6,7 identifies 1078:13 1085:14 identify 1077:23 1102:23 1176:9 1279:22,23 1280:8 1282:6,12 1292:23 1317:6 1390:16,20 identifying 1291:12 1324:11 identity 1076:24 1147:1 1392:7 ifs 1344:12,16 ii 1110:24 1111:5 1111:7 1330:11 1352:21 iitri 1342:9 1422:19 illinois 1166:22 illness 1254:9 illustrate 1088:25 illustrated 1089:25 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [images - industrial] Page 39 images 1415:22 1416:10,17 im erys 1064:15,20 1263:13 1312:22 1421:4,5,8,9 im m ediately 1251:21 im m unity 1290:22 im partial 1290:17 im plem ent 1094:1 im plem ented 1348:20 im plication 1089:6,11 1212:23 1220:7 im p licatio n s 1149:14 1167:10 im plied 1167:12 1204:2 implies 1160:14 1287:5 1295:4 im ply 1252:25 im port 1098:23 1220:7 im portance 1187:12 im portant 1074:23 1075:8,12 1078:6,17,21 1090:8 1102:21,23 1127:19 1164:25 1169:17 1187:20 1205:9 1219:1 1241:23 1292:23 1389:23 1405:2,2 1405:3 im ported 1158:17 1159:24 1358:11 im porting 1111:19 im possible 1379:5 im pressed 1221:9 im pressio n 1204:22 1216:17 im proved 1137:10 1194:19 1327:18 1327:21 im provem ent 1196:8 1327:2 im proving 1387:16 im purities 1179:2 1193:22 1367:8,15 1367:16,18,23 1368:22,23,24 1369:6,20,23 1370:5 inaccurate 1167:11 inappropriate 1205:23 inasm uch 1387:20 inch 1088:18 1194:3 1197:4 inches 1109:15,16 incidence 1214:16 1214:25 1225:22 1225:24 1226:14 1232:21 1399:16 1404:7 include 1116:6 1123:16,17 1190:25 1191:24 1192:1 1203:15 1205:19 1232:15 1232:17 1240:2 1313:18 1404:6 included 1134:3,5 1140:61334:17 1389:25 1390:4 includes 1082:19 1146:5 including 1070:18 1074:7 1107:10 1117:24 1144:10 1174:15 1183:5 1190:2 1200:5 1263:25 1269:17 1272:8 1273:17 1274:1 1296:6 1340:11 1358:23 1370:11 1384:18 1405:6 inclusion 1313:19 incom plete 1335:2 inconclusive 1179:12 inconsistent 1316:8 incorporated 1145:1 increase 1229:16 1251:20 1252:13 1319:8 1339:2 increased 1318:7 1400:8 1403:24 1404:6,13 1405:13 1405:20 increasing 1327:23 incredibly 1304:9 independence 1222:1 independent 1185:11 1378:17 india 1130:7 1391:8 indicate 1076:19 1076:23 1082:23 1083:17 1089:24 1100:20 1108:3 1158:23 1177:24 1196:13,16 1203:25 1215:21 1220:22 1246:17 1251:18 1308:16 indicated 1089:7 1092:22,24 1093:20 1097:23 1252:11 1284:19 1393:9 1397:25 indicates 1094:4,8 1181:13 1218:24 indicating 1106:10 indication 1111:2 1170:8 1399:18,22 1399:23 indices 1092:21 indifferent 1075:5 indisputably 1104:16 individual 1074:19 1079:1,6 1079:8 1325:14 1347:9 1373:17 individualized 1072:15 individually 1059:8 1060:8 1061:7 1065:10,13 1074:10 individuals 1312:19 1399:20 industrial 1076:16 1100:22,25 1107:10,19 1116:2 1116:5,19 1117:3 1117:6 1146:13 1225:14 1235:14 1236:17 1300:8,15 1301:2,20 1302:15 1302:17 1355:3,4 1355:10,18,21,23 1356:6 1372:3 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [industrial - invert] Page 40 1390:19,21 1409:2 1409:5,6,12 1412:12 1413:8 1427:4 industries 1164:13 1409:10 industry 1067:4 1069:19 1072:18 1072:24 1073:17 1073:19 1074:3 1075:3 1081:9 1145:16 1149:23 1174:14,14,19 1177:20 1192:17 1192:20 1195:23 1206:18,19 1208:7 1225:11,12 1232:19 1261:20 1261:22 1263:8,15 1290:18,20,22 1362:18 1363:5 1364:3 1376:25 inexpensive 1142:5 infante 1365:25 1366:1 1372:6 influence 1264:7 1265:6 inform al 1381:15 inform ation 1077:5 1079:7,16 1080:23 1089:1 1090:3 1092:3 1096:4 1156:12 1157:2 1167:2 1193:21 1194:13 1205:13 1208:2 1220:8,23,24,25 1223:24 1241:23 1242:1 1261:18 1266:4 1335:1,2,5 1335:6,10,12,20 1335:24,25 1336:13,17,20 1345:19 1355:23 1363:15 1372:11 1380:18 1381:16 1382:7,16 1385:11 1389:25 1392:16 in fra re d 1149:1 1311:2,15,24,25 1313:18 1314:2 infrequent 1293:24 1295:19 ingest 1303:12 ingredient 1068:25 1279:25 ingredients 1069:25 1070:5,7 1070:21 1109:2 1119:101147:2 inhalation 1211:5 1303:13 1325:18 1338:14 inhale 1387:22 inhaling 1187:4 1339:1 inhouse 1071:10 initial 1149:9 1175:7 1186:4 1213:24 1251:17 1252:1 1282:8 initially 1068:3 1088:3 1131:23 1185:14 1186:8 1215:6 initiate 1171:16 initiated 1241:7 innocuous 1180:8 insert 1307:24 inspector 1166:21 installation 1281:20 instance 1268:7,10 1286:11 1336:4 1339:20 1378:15 institute 1091:20 1155:23 1199:17 1199:21 1200:21 1342:9 1422:19 1424:20 in stru ct 1148:18 instructions 1217:20 instrum ent 1281:23 insufficient 1207:14 1336:13 insulation 1317:16 in ten d ed 1119:1 1242:11 in ten t 1220:25 1270:25 intention 1295:13 intentional 1125:24 intentionally 1125:21 1291:20 interaction 1154:17 1192:14 1238:16 interactions 1154:25 interest 1059:8,9 1060:8,9 1061:7,8 1065:12,14 1069:3 1069:20 1151:3 1261:17 interested 1151:4 1157:5 1225:10 1430:16 interesting 1241:5 1304:6 interfere 1176:7 interferences 1376:16 intergrow th 1088:23 in tern a l 1140:5 1141:13 1149:22 1150:7 internally 1237:24 1269:1 1271:2 international 1130:3 1340:15 internationally 1290:15 1364:19 in te rp re t 1200:1 1215:19 1265:17 interpretation 1206:3 1213:3 1258:24 1336:18 1336:19 interpreting 1258:3 in te rru p t 1165:6 interrupted 1093:16 intestine 1226:4 1401:6 introduce 1066:14 1108:14 introduced 1078:15 1108:11 introduction 1366:11 introductory 1346:6 invariably 1391:19 invert 1119:14 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [investigation - jnj000370144] Page 41 investigation 1189:6 1199:25 investigations 1155:13,14 1156:4 1221:13 investigators 1179:14 1183:22 1183:25 invisible 1192:10 invited 1361:24 involve 1215:14 involved 1068:3 1069:5,5 1079:20 1128:12,14 1129:2 1145:9 1166:1 1187:3 1201:10 1203:24 1206:6 1207:9 1209:23 1212:9 1215:18 1380:19 1381:2,25 1382:14,15 1397:19 1430:13 involvem ent 1127:19 1128:18 1198:141206:22 1382:23,25 involves 1367:6,17 involving 1128:10 ir 1314:2,20 1315:14 irm a 1061:3 iron 1087:18 1099:11 1135:7 1148:12 1169:20 1367:19 irrelevant 1240:19 irrespective 1389:17 irritatio n 1198:10 isaac 1065:8 issue 1074:17 1087:13 1187:23 1193:12 1196:1 1214:25 1229:9,18 1238:1 1240:17 1242:10 1262:23 1263:17 1283:11 1296:13 1312:6 1326:20 1380:14 1380:23 1394:15 issues 1072:3 1073:24 1078:25 1126:2,14 1127:9 1190:21 1196:14 1196:17 1198:1,12 1199:141212:16 1240:10 1279:10 1317:21 italian 1088:21 1091:20,23 1092:8 1110:2,9 1111:12 1112:6 1129:25 1158:7,25 1160:25 1163:3 1216:3 1217:18 1218:1 1234:13 1246:10 1252:8,23 1267:25 1268:18 1284:2 1297:24 1298:1 1345:18 1360:9,12 1360:15,25 1361:2 1361:3 1364:16,18 1368:2 1369:2 1372:13 1383:9 1417:9 1420:21 1425:5,9 1427:18 1427:23 1428:4 italy 1077:21 1089:9 1110:10,12 1110:20,25 1111:1 1111:7,19,20,24 1112:2 1129:12,14 1129:18 1130:16 1130:19,24 1212:19 1214:23 1215:22 1228:14 1230:20,25 1231:15 1232:2 1246:11 1387:9 1402:21 1420:9,13 1424:16 1428:6,10 1428:14 item 1223:6 1228:3 1294:20 items 1068:16 1122:22 1157:14 1201:21 1295:23 iw 1427:14 _______ J_______ j 1062:9 1105:14 j& j 1078:3 1098:15 1125:19 1126:19 1140:9 1145:4 1157:2 1177:3,5 1178:5 1267:23 1271:2 1332:23 1365:25 1380:24 1388:15 1413:20 1416:6,12 1416:12 1417:5,8 1417:20,23 1418:4 1418:10 1420:21 1422:7,10,24 1423:12,17 1424:15,23 1425:17,18 1426:7 1426:10,18 1427:10,16,17,20 1427:21 1428:3,4 &0004479 1103:23 j&j0004480 1104:1 j200 1113:2 j4 1099:3 1286:13 1308:13 1309:6 1322:3,11 1326:13 1327:3,8,16,18,20 1379:17 j4 -l 1139:24 1142:24 1143:12 1143:13,17 1149:23 1150:7 1309:19 1321:16 1322:14 1327:12 1427:7 ja c k 1064:3 jack .fro st 1064:5 jackson 1065:9 ja n u a ry 1105:21 1106:13,22 1248:24 1262:14 1426:21 jb lo ck 1063:7 jerom e 1063:4 jersey 1059:1 1060:1 1061:1 1062:19 1064:4 1104:10 1109:4 1130:23 jim 1262:19 jm 1421:10,14 jnj000065646 1103:24 1415:18 jnj000065647 1104:2 1415:21 jnj000252240 1416:15 jnj000343318 1418:20 jnj000370144 1416:8 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [jnjaz55 - johnson] Page 42 jnjaz55 1417:10 1421:16 1423:6,16 1424:18,22 1425:7 1425:11,12,16 1426:22 1427:12 1427:15,19,24 1428:7 jnjm x68 1417:7 1417:14,19,22 1418:11 1422:6,9 1422:12,18,25 1424:14,25 1425:20,23 1426:6 1426:17 1427:6 jn jn l l 1417:25 1418:17 1421:15 1422:20,23 1423:21 1426:12 1427:8 1428:11 jo b 1058:25 1202:10 1204:10 1227:4 1233:23 1234:1 1236:1 1281:12,13 1374:13 jo h n 1058:10 1066:3,15 1365:24 1366:1 1374:5 1376:4,23,24 1377:18 1415:3 1429:3,12 1430:4 1431:4,20 johns 1272:24 johnson 1062:8,8 1062:12,12 1063:23,23 1064:6 1064:6,10,10 1066:25 1067:1,2 1067:2,5,5,12,12 1067:24,24 1068:11 1069:3,3 1069:12,12,13,13 1074:7,8,8,17,17 1076:19,19,21,21 1077:7,7,21,22 1078:13,14,23,23 1079:15,15 1080:15,15 1081:1 1081:1,17,18 1082:13,13,14,14 1086:2,3,11,11 1087:13,14 1088:14,14 1090:18,19 1091:1 1091:1,6,6,23,23 1094:4,4 1095:4,4 1098:24,24 1105:13,14 1107:5 1107:6,8,8 1108:14,14,15,15 1108:18,18 1109:10,10,18 1110:1 1111:23,23 1112:22,23 1119:4 1119:4,18,18,23 1119:24 1120:21 1120:21 1121:13 1121:13 1124:1,1 1125:17,17,20,20 1125:23,23 1126:16,16 1127:15,15 1128:7 1128:7,20,20,22 1128:22 1129:17 1129:17,20,20 1130:11,12,17,17 1131:4,4,15,15,20 1131:20 1132:9,9 1132:22,22 1133:5 1133:5,6,7,12,13 1134:8,8 1136:22 1136:22 1137:3,3 1137:7,8,12,12 1140:5,5,25,25 1141:8,8,12 1142:1,1 1143:6,6 1144:22 1145:1,1 1145:13 1147:5,5 1147:9 1149:4,4,9 1149:25,25 1150:1 1150:1,8,15,15 1151:19,19,22,22 1151:25 1152:4,4 1152:21,22 1153:16,16,18,18 1153:22,23 1154:13,17,17,21 1154:21 1155:3,3 1155:14,15,24,24 1156:4,5,10,11,14 1156:14,24,24 1157:4,4,25 1158:1 1160:13,13 1160:18,18 1163:5 1163:6,9,9 1165:7 1165:8 1167:3,3,8 1170:4,4,23,23 1171:6,6 1172:6,6 1172:24,25 1174:1 1174:1,15,15,19 1174:19 1175:4,5 1175:12,12,15,16 1175:21,21 1176:20,20,23,23 1177:1,2 1179:5,7 1181:16,16,19,20 1181:25,25 1182:19,19 1183:5 1183:6 1185:8,9 1185:10,11,16,17 1189:1,2,4,4,5,5 1189:23,23 1190:2 1190:2 1191:24,24 1192:1,1 1197:17 1197:17,20,20,25 1197:25 1198:14 1200:5,5 1206:6,6 1207:1,1,8,8 1210:14,14,21,21 1212:7,7,24,24 1216:13,13,15,15 1224:6,6 1227:1,1 1233:16,16 1237:24,24 1238:4 1238:5,15,16,18 1238:18 1239:1,1 1239:19 1240:24 1240:24 1241:8,17 1241:17 1243:8,10 1243:10 1244:13 1244:13,20,20 1245:4,5,5,5,13,13 1245:14,14 1246:6 1246:6,15,15,21 1246:22 1247:13 1247:13 1248:6,7 1248:23,23 1249:7 1249:8 1250:4,5,6 1250:6 1252:2,2 1252:22,22 1255:6 1255:6 1260:13,13 1264:3,3,3,3,6,7 1264:11,11,16,16 1264:23,23,24 1265:1,1,9,9,15,15 1265:16,18,18,22 1265:22,25,25 1266:2,2,7 1267:6 1267:6,24 1269:2 1269:2,17,17 1270:3,3,21 1271:21,21,25,25 1273:16,16 1274:3 1274:19,19 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [johnson - king] Page 43 1277:14,15 1283:11,11 1284:2 1284:2 1286:18,19 1296:22,22 1297:3 1297:3 1301:7,7 1303:16,16 1309:5 1309:5 1310:4,4 1313:2,2 1314:23 1314:23 1322:14 1322:15 1323:1,1 1323:3,4 1327:23 1327:23 1328:7,7 1328:16,16 1332:20 1334:1,1 1335:8,9,10,10 1337:3,3,4,4,17,18 1337:19,20 1341:4 1341:4,16 1347:6 1347:6,12,13,14 1347:14,15,15,17 1347:17,18,18 1348:5,6,12,12 1355:1,1,2,2 1356:9,10,17,17 1364:18,18 1365:12,12 1366:21,22 1369:10,11,17,17 1370:20,20 1371:3 1371:3 1372:17,17 1372:19,19 1373:1 1373:3,6,15,15,19 1373:22,22 1374:1 1377:6,6 1379:25 1380:10,10 1381:12,12 1383:16,17 1385:2 1385:2,3,3,6,6,10 1385:10,23 1386:4 1386:4,10,10,20 1386:20,25,25 1388:9,9,13,13 1389:11,11 1390:21,22,25 1391:1,3,4 1394:19,20 1396:2 1396:2,14,15 1397:13,13 1398:10,10,15,15 1398:20,20,25 1399:11,12,15,15 1399:18,18,21,21 1431:3,3 johnson's 1068:11 1074:8 1086:16,17 1102:15 1111:9 1134:13 1141:13 1144:22 1145:13 1147:9 1149:9 1150:9 1152:1 1153:19 1154:13 1155:8,17,25 1156:23 1159:15 1167:9 1169:15 1171:15,15 1173:5 1179:5,7 1188:20 1188:22 1190:6,8 1198:14 1238:20 1239:9,12,17,19 1243:9 1244:19 1266:8 1267:25 1270:21 1274:3 1296:10 1328:18 1332:20 1340:11 1340:24 1341:16 1347:6 1366:14,25 1370:23 1373:1,3 1373:6,19 1374:1 1378:18 1379:25 1384:22 1385:23 1392:17 1399:1,2 1399:19 1406:9 1417:6 1422:4 1423:15 johnson.com 1264:25 1265:16 joined 1067:5,13 1067:13 1091:6 1383:25 joining 1069:4 jo rd a n 1058:19 1430:3,20 joseph 1105:13 jo u rn a l 1178:20 1223:19,20 1224:1 1224:3,4 1225:2,4 1225:5,6,7,8 1234:8,9 1235:13 1236:17 1253:15 1253:17 1254:16 1307:2 1362:22,25 1402:7 jp m o rg an 1062:14 julie 1312:20 1375:9 ju ly 1084:5 1180:24 1184:5 ju m p 1259:3 ju n e 1094:18 1199:17 1252:4 ju n io r 1207:22 ju ro rs 1102:21 1138:12 ju ry 1066:14 1069:10 1070:13 1074:21 1075:17 1108:12,14 1115:11 1125:4 1140:8,24 1160:2 1164:1 1205:1 _________k ________ k 1065:13,13 1203:19 1340:13 kaenzig 1420:23 kag an 1062:4 1104:22 1137:25 1138:4 1171:25 1290:3 1414:4 kathleen 1062:13 keen 1192:18 1214:24 keep 1135:10 1137:23 1138:5 1196:17 1234:2 1401:8 keeping 1069:7 1135:25 keeps 1242:2 kept 1241:17 1267:2 1382:6,21 key 1161:25 1181:13 1309:1 kfrazier 1062:16 kids 1380:2,5 1384:9,10,16 kind 1068:17 1071:9,20 1079:11 1081:8 1085:18 1112:9 1118:8 1129:16 1139:4 1142:12 1229:5 1247:4 1248:4 1249:14,24,25 1253:5 1261:20 1287:5 1335:6 1365:11 kinds 1090:6 1124:19 1161:2 1206:17 king 1064:7 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [kingdom - lecture] Page 44 kingdom 1058:17 knew 1385:23,24 1386:20 know 1071:24,25 1090:9,11 1160:25 1179:17 1185:1 1209:11 1221:11 1239:8 1240:15 1249:22 1252:22 1267:3,7,11,12 1274:25 1275:7 1277:19 1278:12 1285:7 1287:13 1292:25 1297:21 1301:16 1302:14 1304:6,12,13,15 1305:23 1312:20 1312:23,25 1313:2 1318:22 1319:2,5 1319:7 1320:15,20 1322:15 1324:10 1327:22 1328:11 1330:16 1332:10 1336:4,6,6 1337:6 1338:11,16,18,24 1339:4 1343:21 1350:11,13 1351:9 1351:9 1355:9,13 1356:9 1358:15 1359:15 1362:2 1363:9,11,17 1364:1,4,7,11 1366:1,8 1367:10 1367:18 1369:3,9 1369:10 1372:1,6 1372:8 1374:11 1375:11,12 1377:3 1377:6,8,11,15,16 1378:1 1379:14 1381:12 1382:10 1382:13 1385:2,9 1400:7,7 1404:18 1404:21 1406:4 knowledge 1125:17 1174:2 1245:11 1246:3,23 1315:6 know n 1111:18 1113:14,17 1143:4 1143:7 1150:16 1152:15 1240:14 1315:1 1359:13,14 1367:6 know s 1326:8 konigsberg 1063:2 kslaw.com 1064:10_________ ________ 1________ 1 1059:6 1060:6 1061:5 1082:14 1123:12 1228:23 1234:19 1235:18 1374:5 lab 1187:3 1284:13 1318:22 1337:14 label 1192:9 1354:15 1406:12 labeled 1193:20 1351:18 1391:22 1392:23 labels 1118:17 laboratories 1141:21 1164:3 1175:16 1191:1,12 laboratory 1097:11 1100:8 1152:15 1169:25 1170:7 1187:6 1247:8 1299:6 1318:25 1361:19 1378:18 1423:9 lack 1167:3 1231:17 1314:14 lacking 1152:9 ladies 1074:20 lakeysha 1065:8 1065:10 langer 1185:4,5,6 1186:18 1187:9 1188:2 1189:2 1190:11,18 1191:1 1191:5,12,22 1192:12 1270:19 1271:5 1296:1,2 1298:22 1299:5,8 1299:9,15,16 1300:1 1323:8,10 1323:16,20 1324:2 1357:4,6,22 1361:13 1363:3,11 1363:13 1364:2 1382:17 1383:3,19 1392:24 1394:1,12 1394:18,22 1419:9 1423:3,7 lan g er's 1186:5 1296:14 1394:9 language 1089:18 1089:23 lanzo 1063:7 1104:8 lapierre 1426:14 large 1071:8 1078:11 1099:13 1109:15 1179:1 1199:23 1251:23 1305:14 1308:7 1335:9 1351:2 1353:1 1354:13 larg er 1229:1,6 1353:5 largest 1349:14 larynx 1223:6 1226:1,10 1258:11 1401:5 lastly 1316:21 1407:23 late 1130:18 1171:3 1300:20 1308:16 1383:22 1383:24 1393:17 la te rra 1063:3 latest 1151:12 latin 1123:12 1171:191391:8 lau d er 1143:6 launched 1072:22 la u re n t 1063:13 law 1059:1 1060:1 1061:1 law.com 1065:10 law yer 1251:4 lawyers 1201:14 1242:18 1286:19 lay 1369:22 lay er 1307:23 ldobbins 1064:14 lead 1202:24 1228:19 1231:8,10 1238:4 1314:3,15 1407:13,17,19 leading 1088:3 leah 1062:4 learn 1072:7 1221:15 leather 1192:10 leave 1253:10 1369:7 leaves 1379:4 lectron 1092:1 lecture 1403:7,9 1403:14,15,18,18 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [lecture - litigation] Page 45 1403:19 1404:20 led 1148:14 lee 1375:9 1416:12 1425:17 left 1069:11,13 1347:9 1353:22,24 1354:2,12 1402:18 1402:24,25 legal 1347:14,16 1385:12 leg itim ately 1117:6 lem m o 1374:5 1375:5 1377:23 1423:17 length 1288:25 1330:24 1332:3,15 leodolter 1420:3 lest 1387:13 letter 1090:18 1102:8 1105:13 1106:24 1133:5,12 1155:3,9,22 1159:9 1160:14 1164:9,10 1165:22 1167:12 1178:19 1183:11 1186:19 1186:20 1199:16 1250:24 1251:2 1272:22 1274:17 1290:12 1329:13 1330:4 1366:10,13 1369:21 1407:24 1408:19,21 1410:17,18,21 1411:15 1415:16 1416:12 1417:5,8 1417:15 1418:9 1419:11 1420:20 1 4 2 1 :1 0 ,1 3 ,2 1 1423:7,12 1424:10 1424:15,23 1425:17 1426:18 letterhead 1106:24 1155:3 1157:22 1243:14 1244:17 letters 1368:13 level 1071:25 1144:91150:2 1153:10 1187:10 1207:20 1233:14 1274:21 1280:9 1297:1 1299:8 1315:1 1330:11 1392:15 1395:20 1395:23 1396:4,12 1396:14,18 1398:11 levels 1194:20 1195:14 1211:10 1233:3,7 1237:20 1238:12 1299:16 1299:17 1306:15 1317:5,8,10 1347:2 levy 1063:2 levylaw.com 1063:6,6,7 lewin 1092:19,20 1093:11,13,17,22 1093:25 1173:20 1173:22,23 1174:1 1174:18,20,21 1175:24,25 1176:3 1176:16,24 1177:4 1177:7 1178:9,20 1178:21 1179:19 1180:16,22,22,23 1182:17,23 1183:22 1185:1,3 1190:11 1281:19 1283:3,13 1287:21 1287:22 1288:21 1289:3,4,8,16,25 1290:10,14 1291:4 1291:6,11 1322:23 1383:3,19 1418:9 1418:12 1419:5 1421:18,20 lew in's 1092:22,24 1175:22 1179:16 1182:22 1183:3,24 1184:5 1190:15 1289:19 lie 1113:11 life 1238:11 1239:13 1280:19 lifetim e 1197:10 1211:5 1338:19 1339:7 light 1097:22 1119:10 1140:16 1141:6 1152:17 1153:1,25 1313:21 1400:9 likewise 1075:7 1160:7 1243:16 1248:22 1314:10 1393:15 lim it 1144:11,14 1144:19,20 1148:11,12,14,14 1148:14 1153:3,7 1286:8 1312:1 1315:17,21 1316:18,19,22 1317:18 1375:23 lim its 1135:6 1148:9 1169:24 1314:21 1317:17 1318:12 1423:18 linda 1064:12 1065:24 1259:12 line 1077:2 1098:17 1104:13 1223:6 1229:10 1299:10 1375:7,14 1375:19 1398:2 1410:15 1431:5 linear 1106:17 lines 1234:24 1404:19 link 1261:4 linking 1266:3 links 1264:24 1265:15 lipstick 1189:19 list 1070:4 1135:1 1135:8 1207:2,12 1207:15 1208:10 1208:14 1209:9 1223:11 1237:11 1308:18 1352:10 1406:17 1415:19 listed 1181:25 1182:1 1208:21,22 1362:7 1429:5 listing 1181:23 1260:19 listings 1182:5 lists 1135:2 1192:3 1330:7 literature 1069:7 1072:25 1195:9 1196:201197:21 1198:14 1209:7 1227:2 1234:2 1241:19,24 1267:10 1297:7 1397:24,25 litigation 1244:21 1266:12,15 1377:7 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [litigation - looks] Page 46 1377:12 1398:17 1398:18 little 1066:12 1067:22 1081:11 1081:11,14 1093:13 1095:8 1100:9,24 1109:20 1110:21111:1 1112:14 1115:9,23 1119:13,17 1121:15 1124:14 1124:14 1143:24 1145:5,7 1146:7,9 1167:16,20 1241:5 1276:2 1294:15 1309:11 1342:3 1346:4,25 1374:16 1381:15 1391:12 liver 1226:4 lives 1211:11 1238:13 lkagan 1062:6 lie 1065:13 Up 1058:16 1062:8 1062:13,18 1063:2 1063:19 1064:7,12 1064:17 1065:3 local 1171:21 locality 1087:17 1161:2 located 1109:3 1158:15 1159:22 1162:15 1232:16 location 1109:7 1162:19,20 1291:10 locations 1107:24 1162:2,6 logical 1092:19 1201:5 london 1058:17 long 1067:7 1070:20 1087:16 1108:16 1112:16 1116:2 1120:21 1128:25 1135:1,8 1144:25 1161:21 1163:9 1169:1,1 1183:19 1186:16 1187:16 1203:6 1223:11 1240:3 1301:16 1304:4 1333:18 1342:22 1345:19 1354:1 longer 1093:4 1145:5 1166:21 1236:22 1269:8 1289:4 longo 1062:18 look 1072:10 1075:8,15,17,19 1077:11,14 1078:18 1080:12 1081:10 1082:5,9 1083:25 1084:11 1084:15 1086:19 1086:24 1088:11 1090:10,13,16 1091:5 1092:15 1094:12,21 1096:7 1098:9 1100:12 1101:22 1105:9 1115:8,15,18,21 1118:15 1121:9,20 1122:3 1123:4,5 1124:17,21 1125:8 1127:20,21,22 1128:2,3,4 1130:1 1137:18,20 1138:14,21 1139:6 1142:12,13 1144:1 1144:8 1160:17 1161:4 1174:22 1180:20,24 1181:14 1189:20 1190:13 1194:23 1197:2 1198:5 1199:11 1201:21 1203:5 1213:22 1214:8 1216:7,9 1220:6 1222:13,23 1223:22 1225:25 1226:7 1228:24 1230:22 1232:11 1238:11 1241:21 1253:7 1255:25 1257:7,8 1258:17 1268:24 1271:16 1276:1,21,23 1277:5 1278:6 1280:3 1281:16 1291:13,15,21 1292:1,4,10,20 1299:12 1305:9,10 1306:15,16,24 1307:8,11 1309:3 1309:3,4 1310:23 1316:11 1320:11 1321:4 1324:19 1325:10 1330:19 1330:19 1340:17 1340:19 1342:11 1346:5 1348:1 1349:6 1353:17 1361:20 1378:17 1391:17 1393:2,5 1396:23 1400:15 1401:16 1405:5 looked 1073:14 1138:22 1139:24 1152:20 1160:10 1160:15 1161:3 1189:25 1190:1 1227:20 1230:10 1230:13,25 1236:2 1238:1 1268:11 1280:21,23,23 1281:15 1283:2 1291:3 1300:21,23 1320:16 1321:1 1328:101339:16 1361:13 1371:12 1381:18,20 1391:20 1397:14 looking 1072:12 1081:15 1096:8 1098:3 1112:10 1113:20,21 1118:101120:24 1122:18 1133:20 1136:17 1138:5,16 1140:18,19 1150:25 1151:2,8 1153:10,24 1161:1 1164:23 1173:18 1186:14,16 1187:12,20,24 1190:4 1195:5 1200:4 1205:7 1223:15 1235:24 1254:12 1256:24 1256:25 1266:22 1268:11 1282:19 1287:1,1 1301:25 1305:22 1306:4,19 1307:12 1308:25 1321:2 1330:10 1354:6 1392:17 1397:2 1400:23 1401:17 looks 1072:3 1081:11 1088:17 1114:16,17,20 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [looks - marked] Page 47 1115:5 1124:13 1158:21 1164:7 1221:8 1226:17 1276:17 1279:12 1280:3,4 1285:9 1292:5,9 1342:9 1357:6,14 loretz 1259:12 los 1058:1 1063:10 1063:16 1064:9,18 loss 1251:23 lot 1073:18 1113:3 1130:23 1131:24 1187:20 1211:24 1241:22,22 1252:5 1263:1 1275:7 1290:9 1291:21 1297:4,4 1298:8 1340:24 1344:12 1353:12 1379:9 lots 1391:13,13 loud 1297:15 1323:12 lovely 1114:7 low 1194:20 1299:16 low er 1317:10,17 1318:11 1320:6 1376:16 lowest 1317:8 lu b rican t 1114:9 lubriciousness 1114:3,6 lubricity 1082:20 1120:14,15 lucky 1073:12 1138:4 lunch 1154:5,6 lung 1223:6 1226:2,9 1230:4 1231:18,22 1235:2 1236:3 1256:20 1389:24 1390:4 1400:13 1401:5 lungs 1264:5 luze 1360:22 luzenac 1153:12 1262:11 1263:13 1360:22_________ m m 1063:15 1228:23 1361:12 1374:5,5 m achine 1255:7 1271:8 1408:3 1430:6 m achinery 1203:19 1249:12 m achines 1138:8 1138:14 m adam 1114:23 m ag n esiu m 1113:7,8 1117:4,4 1148:11 1169:18 1180:6,12 m agnetic 1367:19 m ag n ificatio n 1308:1 m agnifying 1143:18 1144:7,12 1144:15 m agnitude 1080:9 m aim on 1063:3 1103:12,12 1104:3 1104:8 m ain 1062:9 1110:13 1142:7 1211:3 1308:21 1404:24 m aintained 1069:14 m ajo r 1382:20 m ajo rity 1163:13 1393:22,23 m aking 1109:11 1135:23 1206:1 1207:17 1224:6 1303:22 1377:25 m ale 1231:1 1419:18 m alignancies 1226:14 m alignant 1225:25 1226:9 1234:25 1401:4 m alik 1063:20 m an 1327:7 management 1261:16 1378:2 m anager 1106:25 m andatory 1152:2 m an n er 1201:18 m ansfield 1063:14 m anufacture 1080:10 1244:18 1273:6 m anufactured 1147:3 1243:9 m anufacturer 1108:20 1385:24 m anufacturers 1195:20 1319:4 1392:10 m anufacturing 1082:16 1119:5 1245:8 1247:4 1379:7 m anuscript 1362:21 m anville 1272:24 m arc 1062:18 1242:25 m arch 1191:9 1216:13 1224:2 1228:5 1246:20 1255:4,12 1297:9 1299:2 1323:17 1424:17 m a rk 1331:5,5 1332:7,8 1360:12 1360:17,25 1364:14 1365:4 m ark ed 1075:23 1077:13 1080:1 1081:25 1084:14 1084:25 1086:22 1090:15 1091:12 1094:15 1095:19 1097:6 1098:10 1100:13 1101:4,19 1103:21 1105:10 1106:201114:12 1114:14 1117:25 1118:2 1121:4,6 1124:23,24 1133:1 1133:3 1137:24 1138:3 1140:1 1146:18,21 1148:1 1150:19,21 1154:23 1155:1 1157:181161:6,8 1163:22,23 1169:8 1169:101171:23 1172:3,4 1174:5 1178:12,14 1180:13,14 1183:9 1186:2,3 1188:13 1189:9,11 1191:7 1193:3 1199:15 1204:16 1214:1 1216:4,5 1217:14 1222:14 1223:23 1228:17,18 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [marked - means] Page 48 1230:15,17 1232:6 1234:6 1235:10 1236:14 1250:21 1259:7 1262:8 1272:11 1287:20 1290:7 1293:4 1297:11 1299:1 1312:14 1329:11 1341:2 1345:13 1347:21 1356:23 1361:11 1365:21 1374:18 1381:20 1424:6 m ark et 1070:16 1072:22 1139:16 1174:22 1185:17 1188:5 1192:6 1209:1 1210:2 1252:12 1325:7 1347:16 1388:18 m arketed 1151:16 m arketplace 1195:16 m arking 1101:2 1101:18 m arried 1239:6 m a rt 1070:3 1340:13 m a rtin 1060:3 m asci 1387:17 1388:9,10,15 massive 1184:8 1263:5 1267:4,9 1283:21 m atch 1085:18 m atched 1215:10 1247:22 m atching 1286:24 m ate 1268:13,16 m aterial 1071:24 1080:22 1099:23 1099:25 1108:4 1109:21 1110:3 1113:14,16 1116:3 1116:11 1119:10 1120:11 1136:8,13 1151:171165:25 1166:15 1167:22 1168:1,21 1169:5 1169:12 1170:2,10 1176:7,17 1200:17 1204:20 1205:14 1205:17,19 1219:2 1220:4 1247:16 1316:7,17 1317:20 1319:10 1321:6 1373:23 1376:14 1377:19 1378:4,6 1378:6,9 1396:2 1397:19 1416:6 1417:20 m aterials 1068:7 1069:24 1071:24 1072:16 1073:2 1074:24 1081:20 1096:24 1098:3 1105:16 1107:23 1107:25 1112:12 1113:12,17 1116:10,10 1117:16,23,24 1122:241126:8 1127:22 1132:21 1134:3,7,19 1135:4,15,16,17 1144:17 1146:5,8 1146:10 1150:5 1151:23,24 1152:19 1153:4 1190:18 1191:4 1200:15 1206:7,18 1206:23 1207:1 1209:2 1220:22 1221:1 1273:3 1312:4 1317:12,14 1358:13 1376:2,3 1376:7 1378:22 1392:3,7 m ath 1342:22 1344:18 m athieu 1251:1 m atrices 1317:15 m atsu 1366:6 m a tte r 1063:7 1064:25 1105:18 1167:5 1196:24 1223:5 1387:18 m atters 1219:2 m atthew 1064:22 1374:9 m aurizio 1228:21 maximize 1082:20 m axim um 1135:2 1135:6 m ccracken 1065:3 m ccrone 1084:17 1085:24 1092:18 1093:21,23,25 1097:10 1100:7 1101:12 1141:21 1155:21 1156:6 1163:21 1164:3,11 1166:7,8 1167:2 1174:15 1275:18 1276:2,12,22 1277:22 1287:14 1287:15 1299:11 1300:2,14 1301:7 1302:16 1328:7,25 1329:13,16 1330:5 1334:4,20 1397:2 1397:10 1398:3 1407:24 1408:13 1409:13,18 1410:15 1411:15 1415:17,19 1417:15,17 1422:16 1425:3 1426:3,13 mckinney 1062:4 m d 1216:14 1217:6 1231:11 1235:19 1366:9 1380:20 m ds 1197:24 m ean 1072:17 1099:20 1108:21 1112:5 1113:25 1114:6 1138:17 1147:15 1162:8,17 1165:6 1167:18 1189:161200:2 1203:4 1229:15 1231:20 1234:1 1237:18 1239:3 1240:10 1268:20 1287:9 1294:17 1301:24 1305:22 1306:13 1311:18 1349:19 1351:7 1375:14 1409:11 m eaning 1289:7 1312:1 1316:19 1332:3 m eaningful 1142:17 m eans 1072:21 1077:3 1083:24 1114:9 1124:9 1176:4 1193:10 1200:3 1254:9,9 1276:10 1314:7 1316:10 1350:10 1366:3 1378:21 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [means - method] Page 49 1408:8 m eant 1205:18 1231:21 1292:25 m easured 1084:8 m easurem ent 1345:21 m easurem ents 1346:3 m easures 1139:1 1401:5 m echanical 1166:4 1397:22 m edia 1157:6 1186:11 1341:3 m edical 1066:19 1067:14,16 1068:18 1109:1 1197:23 1221:10 1222:5 1223:19 1227:2 1234:2,8 1238:1 1241:19,24 1365:25 1366:9 1383:5 1386:1 1389:20 1397:24 1400:3 m edicated 1084:23 1188:19 1188:20,22 1283:7 1370:22 1410:8 1425:5 medicine 1191:10 1224:2,3 1225:4,6 1225:7,9 1234:10 1235:14 1236:18 1253:17,18 1254:16 medicines 1071:19 1147:2 m eet 1091:1,2 1112:10 1122:2,16 1129:21 1135:9 1145:14 1147:6 1251:24 1252:12 1261:7 1381:7 1396:12 m eeting 1090:20 1090:22,24 1092:5 1093:9,10,15,18 1094:23 1135:18 1155:10 1174:11 1174:20 1175:19 1175:24 1176:10 1176:19 1177:17 1177:20 1179:18 1179:201190:22 1191:9,19,20,21 1199:7,18 1201:4 1201:8,11,23 1202:4 1204:3,8 1213:24 1214:6,11 1214:13 1215:4 1216:24 1218:17 1269:16,19 1271:2 1277:10 1288:2 1323:7,15 1327:16 1362:1 1375:1,6 1376:5 1381:10 1418:3 1419:8 1421:17 1423:20 1425:15 1427:10 meetings 1069:6 1183:4,7 1192:20 1210:13 1241:24 1381:5,9 m eets 1113:21 1117:15 1122:9 1127:2 1131:25 1310:10 m em ber 1066:24 1290:16 m em bers 1088:1 1190:25 1191:11 m em bership 1066:20 m emo 1090:19 1177:14 1183:19 1213:23 1214:6 1218:11 1259:9 1268:10 1293:5 1299:2 1323:4 1393:25 1394:9 1418:3 1419:8 1421:3,17 1422:7 1422:10 1425:8,13 1426:7 1427:3,9 1427:16,20 1428:3 m em orandum 1175:23 1191:9 1271:9 1291:2 m em orializing 1201:7 m em ory 1285:11 1285:14 1305:24 1306:1 1308:23 1320:21 memos 1300:19 m en 1192:8 1229:3 m ennen 1174:17 1188:22 1192:11 m ention 1076:21 1076:22 1123:10 1218:23 1237:6 1304:19,21 1305:3 1316:3 1401:7 1408:24,25 1409:4 1409:5,13,21,23 1410:2 1411:20 m entioned 1068:9 1091:20 1095:7 1111:21 1117:7 1120:14 1131:13 1156:21 1180:4 1205:6 1226:20 1322:1 1342:1 1368:25 1369:1 1376:6 1392:18 1400:1 m en tio n in g 1390:3 mentions 1160:10 1304:23 m erely 1387:15 meso 1237:8,9 1398:13 1399:19 m esotheliom a 1211:19,20 1226:3 1226:20,21,24 1227:8,16 1229:8 1230:4,5 1231:14 1231:19,22 1232:22,25 1235:4 1235:7,8 1236:2,9 1236:11,12 1237:3 1237:5,6,13,16,21 1238:6,14 1318:8 1338:15 1339:3,6 1385:4,8 1389:13 1389:25 1390:3 1398:15,21 1399:12,20 1401:5 1401:7 1405:6 m et 1124:3 1126:6 1130:5,14 1134:22 1134:24 1243:2 1247:20 1377:4,15 1382:5 1391:6 m etal 1169:19 m etals 1135:6 m ethod 1083:22 1099:3,8 1137:13 1139:23 1140:4,15 1140:17,20,25,25 1141:4,15 1143:12 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [method - mine] Page 50 1143:13 1150:7,7 1176:18 1179:21 1184:17 1196:5 1278:15,17 1279:1 1279:2 1308:9 1309:16,19 1314:12,15 1315:101316:2 1326:24 1332:23 1395:12 1416:23 methodologies 1149:20 1323:11 m ethodology 1153:5 1156:8 1191:161195:24 1215:18 1217:4 1281:23 1296:14 1326:18 m ethods 1097:20 1137:7,9,10 1138:25 1141:13 1143:18 1145:11 1148:22 1273:10 1285:8 1308:16,18 1308:20 1314:3,21 1317:7,12 1318:11 1370:11 1376:17 1376:18 m eticulous 1216:18 m etropolitan 1251:13,24 mg 1282:23 m gaffrey 1062:20 mgroseclose 1063:17 m ica 1220:11 mice 1072:10 1211:5,9,16,21 m icrobial 1148:15 m icro b io lo g y 1337:9 m icrographs 1176:11 m icron 1333:17 m icrons 1099:5,9 1099:14 1304:4 1330:24 1333:11 m icroscope 1081:101115:6,15 1124:18,21 1125:14,15 1137:18 1138:21 1139:6,7,10 1140:7,7 1142:13 1144:2,4 1184:14 1279:21,22,24 1280:3,22 1292:10 1305:10 1306:15 1307:9,12,22,25 1323:21 microscopes 1280:19 1306:13 m icro sco p ic 1106:2 1115:16 1121:3 1135:3 1203:1,22 1288:22 1292:22 1305:9 1307:20 1313:20 m icro sco p ically 1128:4 microscopies 1221:15,18 m icroscopist 1137:17 1280:17 1280:18 1281:5 1319:3 m icroscopists 1307:10 m icroscopy 1083:13,19,21,23 1083:24,25 1084:9 1092:1,2 1093:20 1093:23 1097:22 1097:23 1098:16 1099:3,41101:10 1128:5 1137:16,22 1138:18 1139:15 1140:13,16,16 1141:7,10 1142:15 1149:12 1150:3 1152:17,17 1153:1 1153:2,6,25,25 1165:15 1177:10 1205:7 1279:3 1281:20 1282:11 1307:15 1308:24 1310:8,12 1311:23 1312:11 1313:21 1314:12,15 1316:6 1349:8 1351:24 1353:14 1356:15 1356:18 1370:12 1426:11 m id 1059:6 1060:6 1061:5 1068:19 1383:22,24 1384:5 1384:7 m iddle 1138:17 1220:3 1300:19 1317:3 1372:10 m iddlesex 1059:1 1060:1 1061:1 miles 1130:24 mill 1220:16 milled 1316:7,17 m iller 1097:11 1105:14 1107:3 1164:16,18 1165:1 1233:4 1417:16 1426:4,19 1427:3 m illers 1219:10,16 1219:17,23 1220:14,15 1224:15,23 1225:23 1226:15 1226:17,22,24 1227:17 1228:10 1228:14 1229:17 1230:6,11,20,24 1231:2,14,21,25 1232:12,14,25 1233:11 1236:7 1237:12 1257:1,8 1338:19 1402:21 1420:9,12,16 1428:9,13 m illette 1417:17 1426:13 m illigram 1282:24 1343:13,14,16,19 m illim eter 1307:17 milling 1225:12 1229:13 million 1081:4 1084:1 1139:9,17 1153:8,9 1343:24 1344:3,21,21 millions 1090:7 mills 1348:13 m ind 1200:25 mine 1076:22,24 1077:21,23,25 1078:1,4,13,18,22 1079:10,11,13 1080:3,6,16,20,21 1080:23 1081:2,19 1081:21 1085:22 1088:17 1090:1,2 1090:5,11 1091:17 1091:22 1095:9,9 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [mine - minimize] Page 51 1096:23,23 1097:1 1097:2 1102:22 1108:3 1110:9 1111:15 1112:3,6 1112:6,7,8,13,14 1112:17,21,25 1113:1,19 1114:21 1122:8 1124:10 1126:24 1127:2,5 1127:10,16,21,22 1127:23 1128:1,12 1128:15 1129:7,9 1129:12,13,14,18 1129:19,19,25,25 1130:25 1131:4,14 1131:24 1132:2,4 1132:6,6,14,15 1133:14 1134:12 1134:22 1136:20 1158:3,7,9,10,14 1159:1,1,2,3,9,19 1160:5,6,17,20,23 1160:25,25 1161:1 1161:4,13,19 1162:20,22 1163:3 1163:3,5 1168:17 1169:3 1228:16 1229:4,22 1230:13 1231:2 1232:4,16 1233:4 1235:15,15 1245:23,25,25 1246:2,4,5,10,15 1284:1 1292:5 1295:13,14 1296:23,24 1338:14 1339:2,11 1339:18 1355:3,6 1356:1 1357:14 1378:6,6,7,8,22 1379:4,14 1391:3 1391:14 1392:11 1392:13 1395:8 1396:3,19,19,21 1396:23 1406:5 1411:16,23 1412:7 1417:13 1425:9 1427:18 m ined 1113:5 1114:18 1116:4 1161:4 1397:12 m iner 1233:4 m ineral 1059:9 1060:9 1061:8 1079:5,16 1085:18 1087:7,13,19 1088:22 1089:8 1100:7 1102:10 1105:4 1106:1,7 1107:24 1113:5 1120:15,23 1157:24 1162:13 1162:14 1172:25 1180:2 1200:18 1202:16 1203:1 1218:25 1220:15 1220:17 1272:23 1282:7,12 1292:4 1315:161318:5 1393:10 1406:25 1407:3,5 1413:7 1424:13 1426:16 m ineralogie 1393:3 m ineralogical 1098:16 1158:6 1218:19 1219:3,11 1221:1 1268:21 1290:15 1362:8 1426:11 m ineralog ist 1332:10,12,18 m in eralo g y 1161:11 1202:6 1362:11 1423:4 m ineralology 1079:11 1080:22 1087:16 1088:4 1356:25 m inerals 1064:15 1064:20 1079:7 1080:6 1081:18 1095:22 1096:13 1097:12,21 1098:19 1099:9 1100:19 1101:11 1102:11,13 1105:20 1106:24 1107:3,5,7,11,18 1113:6 1119:25 1120:4,6 1123:9 1132:21 1139:4 1143:11,15 1144:10 1147:21 1153:11,13 1162:1 1162:5 1164:15,17 1164:20 1165:1 1166:22 1169:14 1179:16 1181:7 1189:13 1191:17 1194:9,11 1195:15 1195:21 1199:22 1202:14,18 1246:18 1272:3,23 1274:1,19,20,24 1318:13 1326:2,5 1329:20 1330:17 1334:6 1342:4 1358:14 1359:9,12 1375:10 1387:14 1417:17 1419:5 1421:10 1425:22 1426:20 1427:4 m iners 1127:24 1214:17 1215:10 1216:3 1218:12 1219:10,16,17,23 1220:101224:15 1224:23 1225:23 1226:15,17,21,24 1227:17 1228:10 1228:14 1229:17 1230:5,10,19,24 1231:2,14,21,25 1232:12,14,25 1233:6 1236:6 1237:12 1257:1,8 1338:11,19 1339:6 1402:20 1420:8,12 1420:16 1427:23 1428:9,13 mines 1076:14,20 1078:7,10,12 1079:1,2,6,17,20 1080:5,14,17 1127:12,13 1128:11,19 1129:21 1130:10 1130:14 1132:10 1155:22 1157:12 1157:13 1163:16 1167:14 1198:21 1199:3,8,17,22 1200:3,12 1201:8 1202:1,20 1204:1 1227:21 1232:3,22 1233:8 1267:12,21 1269:16 1274:9 1308:21 1367:3 1368:14,18 1391:7 1412:7 1421:13 1424:19 1427:9 m inim ize 1136:4 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [minimized - name] Page 52 m inim ized 1389:1 m inim um 1306:12 1307:14 1332:14 1332:15 1333:11 m ining 1087:18 1090:8 1091:20 1122:1 1161:3 1214:18 1215:7 1225:12 1226:25 1227:19 1229:13 1388:16 m inus 1184:18 1322:15 m inute 1108:6 1115:23 1140:3 1142:18 1197:5 1209:18 1274:22 1289:10 1371:7 1381:12 1403:9,12 1403:14,17 m inutes 1381:8,9 1381:10 1382:1 m inutiae 1275:4 m iserably 1327:16 m isidentification 1202:25 m isidentified 1203:14,18 1276:18 1279:19 m isinterpretation 1279:13 m isinterpreted 1270:18 misleading 1336:12 m isread 1277:1 missed 1378:22,22 1378:23 missing 1168:8 1182:8 1367:24 1379:19 1418:12 mississippi 1065:9 m istaken 1186:16 1187:16,16 1418:19 m itigated 1318:10 m ixture 1352:13 1358:14 m m aim on 1063:6 m m m 1278:16 1281:8 1285:10 1306:6 1340:14 1347:24 1357:24 1359:23 1364:15 1380:17 1392:4 m m w r.com 1065:5 m ode 1088:22 model 1138:19 m od ern izatio n 1312:17 1313:8 m odernize 1314:19 m odernized 1313:9 m odest 1346:4 m odified 1308:12 m oisture 1135:2 1169:17 m olnar 1105:14 1426:19 m om ent 1140:23 1208:16 1222:8 1246:19 m onitored 1165:14 m onitoring 1163:10 1171:7 1172:7 1173:12 1347:23 1417:23 m onograph 1313:8,9 1314:6 1314:20 m ontgom ery 1065:3 m onth 1270:14,15 m onths 1239:11 1246:9 1262:15 1266:18 1270:12 1270:13 1371:9 m oran 1062:18 m orbidity 1254:6 1254:9 1255:9,11 1256:2,8 1257:21 1257:22 1401:15 1402:20 1405:8 1419:17,21 1428:8 1428:12 m orning 1066:8,9 1074:6 1092:13 1153:20 1156:13 1163:1 m orphological 1158:6 m orphology 1316:9 m ortality 1228:13 1230:19,24,25 1232:12 1234:11 1234:25 1254:4,9 1254:12 1256:11 1401:12 1402:20 1419:17,22 1420:3 1420:8,11,15 1428:8,12 m osh 1104:7 m oshe 1063:3 1103:12 m otion 1414:2 m otivate 1262:22 m ount 1423:11 m ouse 1211:4,7,18 1212:16 m outh 1146:7 move 1094:10 1099:61110:21 1111:12 1131:3 1208:15 1262:25 1310:7 1311:20 m oved 1067:9 1109:8 1112:24 1134:16 1138:24 m quirin 1064:24 m t 1185:7 1187:3 1188:25 1190:22 1191:10,12,21 1297:101419:8 1422:7 m ultiply 1343:22 m um 1239:11 1384:19,20 m um s 1241:14 m uscovite 1220:11 m ute 1068:23 1131:9 m uted 1131:2 m utterings 1166:20 m yers 1063:12 _______ n_______ n 1062:1 1063:1 1064:1,3 1065:1 1235:18 1284:20 1415:1 n.w. 1063:21 nail 1189:19 nalysis 1293:23 nam e 1066:15 1077:25 1078:1 1123:12 1128:17 1143:2 1173:19 1242:25 1312:21 1313:1 1374:6 1380:13 1381:2,24 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [name - note] Page 53 1429:12 1430:20 1431:3,4 nam ed 1174:12 nam es 1143:7 nashed 1082:13,15 1090:18 1155:4 1156:17 1176:19 1177:1,5,24 1178:5 1417:5 1424:23 1425:13 national 1206:14 1211:15 1259:18 n aturally 1291:22 1292:3 1365:23 n atu re 1080:9 1090:4 1099:24 1100:1 1135:13 1147:12 1186:15 1187:14 1195:12 1215:18 1218:16 1240:20 n ear 1178:8 1253:6 1349:6 nearby 1130:25 nearing 1340:6 necessarily 1140:9 1176:17 1198:9 1205:19 1267:23 1268:21 1275:3 1294:5 1317:13 1372:20 1412:17 necessary 1080:20 1246:5 1414:3 need 1070:14 1071:24 1074:14 1095:8 1142:15 1179:22 1209:5 1212:10 1247:25 1247:25 1248:1 1271:16 1280:9 1285:6 1304:10 1314:19 1332:11 1334:14 1377:20 1377:23 1384:3 1400:15 1406:20 needed 1247:17 1317:9 needle 1120:18 1123:13,15 1125:8 1126:11 1269:10 1303:19 1304:24 1305:13 1307:3 needles 1124:21 1125:9,15 1269:1 1305:5,8,11 needs 1070:24 1103:1 1141:20 1220:16 negative 1314:4,7 1316:1 1336:3,11 1336:11 1337:20 1337:23,23 1338:6 neither 1274:17 neoplasms 1225:25 1226:1,9 1389:20 1401:4 1405:6 neoplastic 1229:14 1229:23 1230:1 nerve 1304:8,8 nested 1234:11 1420:4 never 1103:8 1125:19,23 1130:13,20 1144:5 1144:15 1150:10 1200:6,20 1220:14 1239:14,24 1240:17 1242:10 1245:12 1249:22 1258:23 1266:14 1267:7 1270:23 1271:17 1274:20 1277:1 1297:6 1303:2,7 1312:21 1313:1 1361:6 1369:11 1379:7 1380:6 1399:15 1400:9 1402:3 1407:15 new 1059:1 1060:1 1061:1 1062:19,19 1063:5,5 1064:4 1064:23 1095:21 1104:10 1109:4,4 1109:5 1112:8 1130:23 1131:23 1133:24,25 1171:21 1173:23 1178:20 1185:7 1186:21 1188:7,14 1191:10 1216:24 1252:2 1273:1,19 1297:19 1329:4 1348:18 1425:21 news 1186:10 1302:22 newspaper 1366:15 nice 1120:19 1136:6,17 1215:24 nicest 1136:11 nick 1388:10 nickel 1359:13 nine 1179:10 1266:18 1348:18 1390:17 nj 1064:15 noble 1374:9 nom inate 1207:20 nom inated 1313:3 non 1089:3,14 1093:6 1099:16 1120:15 1130:2 1178:7 1182:2,13 1182:141202:17 1214:18 1215:10 1226:18 1229:14 1229:23 1232:13 1234:25 1236:7 1260:21,22 1262:3 1269:1 1272:9 1280:11 1283:17 1283:20 1311:4 1315:16 1346:16 1352:1,6,7,12,16 1353:9 1361:2 1369:5,13 1410:4 1412:18,20 1420:17 nonfruitful 1093:16 non p ro fit 1146:25 nonregulated 1318:4 noonan 1063:20 n o rm al 1217:2 1238:22 1293:2 1349:15 norm ally 1093:2 1223:21 1279:12 n o rth 1059:7 1060:7 1061:6 n o rth ern 1230:20 1230:24 1231:15 1420:13 norw ay 1235:20 1235:21,21,22 1236:16 norw egian 1235:15 1236:5,19 notary 1431:21,24 note 1104:5 1120:25 1123:23 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [note - offers] Page 54 1328:2,21,24 1356:3 1410:10 noted 1182:24 1229:16 notepaper 1076:10 notes 1184:5 1360:4 1364:11 noticed 1384:22 novel 1166:16 1397:23 novem ber 1105:21 1193:19 1288:8 1329:12 1408:13 1426:21 nowadays 1072:10 n tp 1206:7,11,13 1206:13,23 1207:2 1207:11,19 1208:2 1208:8,10,13,18 1210:12 1211:4 1259:17,20,24 1260:9,18,20,25 1261:6 1262:2,15 1262:22 1263:9 1421:3,6 n tp 's 1210:13,18 n u m b e r 1073:21 1074:5 1075:20 1077:12 1080:4 1081:24 1082:7 1084:12 1085:16 1085:17,18 1086:20 1087:1 1088:7 1090:13,17 1094:13 1095:17 1095:20 1097:5 1098:9 1100:6,12 1101:2,3,5,7,15,18 1101:24 1102:12 1103:14,21,25 1104:1,4 1105:4,9 1106:18,21 1116:121118:10 1122:18 1133:21 1136:5 1138:6 1139:3,25 1140:19 1146:19 1147:25 1152:14 1154:22 1157:14,17,21,22 1161:61163:22 1164:2,5 1165:3 1166:6 1169:9 1170:16 1171:24 1172:3 1174:4 1178:13 1180:13 1183:8,10 1186:2 1188:12 1189:9 1191:61199:1,11 1204:14 1213:7,8 1213:17,22 1222:13,24,25 1223:13,15,20,22 1223:25 1225:19 1229:2 1230:15 1232:5 1234:5,7 1243:2 1244:21 1262:18 1266:20 1268:18 1275:18 1282:21 1290:13 1344:16,24 1359:3 1360:11,15 1385:2 1385:6 1391:22 1392:20 1397:7 num bered 1088:11 1146:19 1390:8 1429:3 num bers 1071:13 1101:13,14,23 1103:22,25 1104:18 1138:5 1181:14,19,24 1182:6 1200:6 1249:17,24 1353:1 num erical 1075:16 1085:13 1085:13,15 1139:3 n um erous 1088:23 1264:24 nurses 1241:13 ny 1064:23 1418:21_________ o o 1228:23,23 1374:5 object 1280:10 objective 1080:13 1080:18 1214:15 1214:20 1215:3 1388:16 obligatory 1090:25 observations 1092:22 1199:20 observed 1099:10 1099:12 1106:5 1162:16 1224:22 1258:17 1323:22 o b tain 1189:5 1215:6 1246:6 1367:2 obtained 1093:24 1106:3 1126:24 1128:9 1158:11 1215:10 1216:17 1288:6,20 1289:4 obtaining 1216:19 obundy 1063:11 obvious 1093:19 obviously 1112:8 1131:23 1170:5 1292:23 1305:3 1346:14 1394:20 1404:20 occasion 1166:14 1166:16 1204:7 1212:9 1408:16 occasionally 1180:9 occasions 1154:21 1165:25 1382:5 1397:18 1407:25 1408:8,22 occupational 1221:13 1224:2,3 1225:4,6,7,9 1234:9 1253:17,18 1253:20 1254:16 1361:25 1372:13 1402:6 occur 1089:20 1109:12,13 1295:11 occurred 1251:19 occurrence 1089:3 1089:14 1200:23 1227:16 1345:10 1346:18 1422:21 occurring 1291:22 1292:3 occurs 1184:8 October 1097:8 1098:13 1161:17 1183:12 1213:8 1217:161218:5 1259:10 1410:3 odd 1249:17 1394:21 oesophagus 1223:7 1226:3,10 1258:11 offer 1391:10 offers 1265:23 1310:1 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [office - operation] Page 55 office 1251:14 1381:6 1382:5 offices 1380:20 official 1228:4 1346:22 oh 1359:5 oils 1387:20 oily 1114:9,10 okay 1075:13 1077:16 1081:8 1082:8,9,12,21 1096:2,15 1101:17 1104:24 1105:20 1113:12 1115:1 1121:14 1125:16 1126:22 1131:12 1136:19 1139:18 1140:17,22 1148:25 1151:7 1157:10 1160:16 1161:14 1162:11 1167:13 1168:17 1180:19 1182:11 1182:11 1185:8 1188:24 1190:10 1190:16 1197:6 1206:14,21 1209:18 1210:19 1212:22 1213:4,13 1216:12 1223:12 1238:7 1243:15 1245:9 1246:12 1251:7,22 1253:4 1253:10,22 1254:3 1254:21,23 1255:13,14 1256:5 1256:10,14,16 1257:3,18 1258:4 1258:6,7,11 1259:3 1261:2 1262:13 1263:21 1264:9,13,15 1266:10,19 1267:22 1268:3,23 1269:13 1271:13 1271:19,24 1272:15,18,19,20 1272:21 1274:6,12 1275:13,21 1277:4 1277:8,9,11,18,22 1278:16,22,24 1280:20 1281:1,14 1282:1,14 1283:15 1283:24 1284:15 1284:25 1285:17 1285:25 1286:16 1286:22 1287:18 1288:11 1289:18 1289:22,23 1290:8 1291:24 1294:1,8 1294:16,18,25 1296:12 1297:8,12 1298:9,16,24 1299:18,19,22,24 1300:11,13 1301:5 1301:10 1302:1,7 1302:20 1303:15 1304:1,12,14 1306:9,21 1307:5 1308:10 1309:9,15 1310:9,17 1311:11 1312:12 1313:5,14 1315:7,8 1316:5 1316:161317:1,24 1318:1 1319:1 1320:5,10,18,24 1321:5,10,18 1322:10,18,20 1323:6,14 1324:9 1324:17 1325:4,9 1325:24 1326:15 1328:6 1329:7 1330:3 1331:11,16 1331:21,24 1332:6 1333:2,10,16,20 1333:23 1334:3,8 1334:24 1335:18 1335:22 1336:8 1337:24 1338:23 1340:3,18 1341:15 1341:21 1342:6,12 1342:15,20 1343:6 1343:20 1344:5,25 1345:6 1346:12,23 1348:15 1349:21 1350:7,12,21 1351:6,12 1353:11 1354:4 1355:12 1357:11,17 1358:2 1358:5 1359:2 1361:5 1362:5 1365:15 1366:3 1369:15,18 1370:2 1370:3,9,17 1371:14 1372:9 1373:18,21,25 1374:8,15 1375:13 1376:11,21 1377:3 1377:5,10,14 1378:3,14 1379:23 1380:8,12,25 1381:3 1383:12,23 1384:1,8,14,18 1385:1,10,21 1386:10,19 1388:5 1388:23 1399:25 1400:16,17,22 1401:8,9 1402:2 1402:10,12,14 1403:21 1404:3 1405:11,12,23 1406:21 1407:8,20 1408:11 1409:16 1410:24 1411:22 1414:8 old 1058:16 1297:10 1351:7 1353:19 1384:18 1422:8 oldest 1120:24 Oliver 1063:9 omission 1313:18 once 1129:24 1132:2 1188:7 1266:17,17 1295:15 1395:22 1396:9 ones 1138:20 1140:8 1176:24 1308:8 1408:12 1409:18 ongoing 1096:22 1132:8 1163:10 1345:20 1346:3 1361:18 1383:20 1389:10 1423:8 o nw ard 1384:5 onw ards 1121:3 1123:25 1173:13 1384:7 1397:15 open 1112:8 1129:10 opened 1165:10 1169:4 openings 1319:15 1319:19,24 1320:3 1320:11,15 1321:1 1321:3 o p erate 1071:6,11 operating 1068:16 1094:5 1132:2 operation 1094:9 1164:20 1226:25 1230:13 1247:4,5 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [operation - page] Page 56 1249:4,10,11 operations 1109:2 1245:8 1251:13 1367:7,12 1369:19 1382:22 o p erator 1316:15 opinion 1141:22 1166:24,25 1193:14 1201:15 1222:4 1274:2,4 1287:7 1318:16 1386:13,16 1388:2 1398:6,25 1399:14 opposed 1267:8 1336:21 1373:23 opposite 1270:11 optical 1098:16 1099:2 1137:16,17 1138:18 1140:6 1142:12 1149:11 1279:1,2,3,22 1280:19 1281:20 1282:11 1288:21 1307:15 1311:23 1312:2,11 1314:15 1316:6 1426:11 optics 1101:12 optim um 1215:16 oral 1083:14 1084:7 1088:9 orden 1312:25 1375:9 o rd er 1066:12 1075:16 1094:6 1143:10 1182:9 1213:21 1247:15 1252:1 1286:8 1319:8 1395:14 ordered 1252:22 ordinate 1376:25 ordin atin g 1129:2 ore 1080:6,9,19,22 1081:4 1082:16,18 1084:23 1087:18 1089:2,4,8,15 1090:2,9 1091:18 1120:23 1127:1 1130:19 1131:5,14 1131:18,21,22 1132:10,13 1135:23 1136:21 1151:24 1153:11 1154:14 1162:3,7 1162:10,15,21 1163:5 1167:15 1220:18 1221:1,2 1345:20 1367:3,5 1370:20 1396:2 1398:3 1424:21 ores 1107:12,22,23 1128:8 organization 1146:25 1207:23 organized 1108:7 orien t 1138:7 1216:7 1301:15 origin 1108:18,19 1218:25 original 1188:23 1237:10 1289:8 originally 1072:9 1110:91137:15 o rrick 1063:19 orrick.com 1063:22,23 osha 1332:14,16 1332:21 1333:11 1333:14,21,25 otc 1299:6 outcom e 1149:13 1156:18 1204:8 1208:23 1262:4 1430:16 outcom es 1202:3 outside 1079:15 1084:17 1086:4 1087:12 1094:4 1128:10 1129:4 1140:11 1141:18 1141:22 1145:12 1163:1,10 1166:9 1198:1,2,5,11,15 1212:18 1238:17 1238:19 1295:23 1391:1 ovarian 1103:7 1104:20 1261:5,14 overall 1068:14 1075:6 1159:6 1210:4 1325:11 1341:9 1376:16 1408:23 overseas 1171:18 overview 1079:12 1126:18 owned 1111:16 1355:3 owners 1387:13 1391:15 1392:11 owns 1265:9,25 ______ P______ p 1062:1,1 1063:1 1063:1 1064:1,1 1065:1,1 1231:11 1234:18 pl-2684109 1431:2 pacific 1058:6 packaging 1116:9 1127:7 1273:3,7 packed 1167:20 packet 1255:4 packing 1130:22 page 1079:25 1084:24 1088:11 1088:19 1092:11 1092:12,16,16 1096:7,8 1115:3 1118:15,16 1151:8 1152:23,24 1153:15 1156:18 1157:19,22 1159:5 1161:19,20,22 1180:21,25 1193:5 1194:23 1195:17 1199:11 1214:6,9 1216:101218:13 1218:22 1221:3 1223:20 1224:13 1224:18,20 1225:16,19 1241:5 1256:15,25 1257:10 1274:8 1285:9 1290:1,5 1291:7 1294:2,19 1310:19 1313:25 1315:8 1317:2 1318:3 1325:10,11 1326:16 1330:2,7 1330:10 1342:21 1342:24 1348:2,2 1348:16 1350:17 1352:11 1353:18 1358:5,6 1360:3 1361:21 1362:14 1393:2 1401:8 1415:2,14 1416:1 1417:1 1418:1,12 1419:1 1420:1 1421:1 1422:1 1423:1 1424:1,8 1425:1 1426:1 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [page - particles] Page 57 1427:1 1428:1 1429:5 1431:5 pages 1070:20 1088:20 1096:5 1158:22 1181:18 1182:8 1197:13 1220:20 1244:25 1327:8 1423:22 1429:3 paid 1319:3 p ain ted 1400:1 palenik 1415:16 p an atier 1062:3,3 1074:16 1076:1 1077:17 1079:1 1082:1,6,8 1083:5 1084:12 1085:1,21 1086:20 1089:7 1090:14 1091:11 1092:14 1094:13 1094:20 1096:3 1097:13 1098:17 1100:91101:20 1103:5,15 1104:15 1104:24 1105:12 1105:15 1106:12 1106:14,19 1107:9 1131:7 1139:23 1143:16 1147:11 1150:5 1154:4,24 1162:23,25 1163:25 1166:7 1172:1 1185:4 1198:13 1199:2 1201:3,22 1203:2 1204:2,13,22 1205:1 1212:17 1213:10,14 1214:4 1215:13 1216:8 1217:19 1221:24 1222:22 1223:14 1224:12 1225:15 1227:11,13,25 1228:2,4 1240:3 1250:12,17 1272:16 1280:16 1289:11,14 1290:4 1340:5 1387:2,6 1389:3,9,16 1390:8 1392:19 1393:25 1395:6 1397:1,9 1398:24 1399:9 1401:23 1411:11 1412:3,24 1413:16 1414:1,5 1414:8 1415:6,8 1415:10 panel 1313:3 1318:9 p ap er 1116:6,7 1198:22 1199:24 1199:25 1202:7,11 1202:22 1218:17 1230:18,21,22 1231:10 1253:7,14 1258:22,23 1278:3 1278:21 1296:1 1302:5 1319:24 1356:24 1357:7,21 1357:22 1361:6,13 1361:21,25 1362:2 1362:7,12,14,16 1362:24 1363:8,13 1363:13,14,21,22 1364:12 1366:16 1394:2,10,13,17 1394:23,25 1395:3 1400:10,13,13,23 1401:2,10,12,14 1401:15,24 1402:11,19 1403:2 1404:6,8,8,17 1405:5,5,8,20,24 1406:23 1407:10 1407:11,14 1423:3 papers 1073:3,7,8 1253:13 1381:18 1402:13 1404:16 1404:16 paradise 1188:19 paragenetic 1219:2 p a ra g ra p h 1083:3 1083:4 1084:25 1085:2,3 1088:7 1091:5,11 1092:14 1092:15 1096:8 1097:14,17 1098:1 1105:16,17 1107:15,16 1161:25 1165:23 1177:15 1180:25 1184:1 1186:24 1194:24 1195:4,18 1214:9 1215:2,14 1216:16 1217:21 1217:23 1219:8 1220:1,3 1221:24 1263:13 1275:2 1291:7 1317:3 1326:17 1345:14 1346:7 1353:2 1361:23 1371:18 1372:10 1376:11 paragraphs 1158:4 1215:20 1241:6 parallel 1099:18 1332:24 param eters 1117:22 1293:24 p aren ts 1384:13 p a rk 1064:4 p arn ell 1063:9 p a rt 1069:22 1070:19 1076:25 1096:61100:21 1112:13 1126:13 1126:23 1127:25 1136:25 1137:6 1151:23 1153:17 1158:19 1195:21 1208:8 1210:16,20 1212:9 1216:8 1232:17 1233:23 1234:1,23 1235:25 1247:19 1265:4 1306:2 1361:20 1369:24 1374:3 1382:19 1390:4 1394:20 p artial 1335:19,24 1335:25 1336:21 participant 1210:25 p articip ate 1152:5 1210:21 participation 1152:1 p article 1099:13 1099:16 1155:25 1193:22 1205:8 1351:15 1353:5,7 particles 1098:15 1099:5,18 1115:7 1115:15,18,24 1120:17 1124:4 1135:12 1136:2,4 1136:5,16 1138:23 1139:2,7 1273:5,7 1273:17,22 1280:24 1316:7,17 1323:22 1339:21 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [particles - phases] Page 58 1349:14 1351:3,20 1353:1 1354:16 1367:19,19 1368:16 1426:10 p artic u la r 1085:2 1086:18 1087:15 1087:17 1091:4,7 1092:5 1098:22 1099:21 1102:4 1122:20 1133:25 1140:15 1151:3 1162:19 1169:21 1169:23 1176:19 1207:10 1212:1 1216:14 1224:13 1226:25 1246:13 1285:22 1392:1,11 1394:15 particularly 1068:6 1074:2 1089:2 1195:3 1317:22 particulate 1303:18,19 parties 1430:14,15 p a rts 1084:1 1131:17 1139:9,17 1153:8,8 1159:1 1164:25 1204:24 1391:15 p arty 1166:9 1397:11 pass 1144:23 1242:17 1258:5,6 1277:6 1311:4,8 1311:14,15 1314:5 1399:5 1411:11 passed 1239:11 1384:20 passes 1149:13 1321:10 1322:10 passing 1382:24 p asto re 1059:4 paterson 1062:19 pathw ay 1093:16 p a tte rn 1085:8,11 1205:10,21 1292:21 p attern s 1204:20 1205:14,16 1232:12 1420:16 pause 1285:16 pc 1062:3 pcpc 1375:1,6 1376:23,25 1377:2 1377:17 1423:19 p d n l 1325:11 peak 1184:10 1203:19 peaks 1091:18 peek 1297:13 peer 1223:19 penicillins 1072:21 Pennsylvania 1064:13 1065:4 people 1069:5 1071:10,11 1072:19 1073:15 1074:2 1086:15 1087:23 1109:16 1123:3 1129:16 1134:10 1135:19 1142:16 1145:8 1156:21 1179:20 1191:13 1197:22 1199:4,6 1205:25 1207:17,22 1208:1 1214:22 1227:18 1228:16 1230:14 1238:11 1265:23 1266:6 1281:6,12 1286:13 1320:6 1323:16 1324:11 1336:23 1380:19 1381:5 1382:17 1384:16 percentage 1175:8 percentages 1328:9,17 1329:5 perfect 1225:17 perfected 1281:23 perfectly 1400:16 perform 1148:24 1152:13 p erfo rm ed 1095:1 1126:161141:17 perform ing 1095:4 1154:18 perform s 1241:10 p erin eal 1261:5 period 1086:12,23 1106:8 1107:4 1110:23 1134:9 1165:24 1172:16 1172:24 1173:7 1218:101221:19 1233:25 1243:22 1246:8 1252:3 1325:22 1391:2 1397:15,17 1398:4 1410:19 periodic 1306:11 periodically 1151:15 periods 1325:19 perm itted 1116:14 1132:8 1147:22 person 1138:9 1369:17,21,22 1370:4 1371:16 personal 1216:20 1239:14 1362:18 1363:4 1364:2 1380:4 personally 1072:14 1073:3 1206:22,25 1211:25 perspective 1086:2,10 1108:2 1124:7 1283:20 1347:14 1371:21 1380:16 persu ad ed 1194:7 1262:2 1326:3 pertained 1380:18 petition 1192:23 1192:25 1193:7,8 1193:16,20 1194:7 1196:22,24,25 1209:4,16 1324:19 1326:2 1419:12 petrographic 1177:9 petterson 1213:24 1427:17,21 pharm aceutical 1067:4 1072:16,18 1116:241127:2 1146:15,17,23 1147:6,8,23 1149:16 1155:24 1227:19 1303:5 p h arm aceuticals 1145:23 pharm acology 1071:15,17,18 pharm acopeia 1145:18,20,21 1146:161147:12 1309:22 1310:1 phases 1358:22 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [phd - pointed] Page 59 phd 1066:18 1071:14,16 1073:9 1073:12 Philadelphia 1064:13 1065:4 philip 1325:15 Philippines 1130:6 philosophy 1373:19 phone 1068:22 1131:7,8,9 1250:19 1413:17 phones 11*31:2 photo 1292:16 photocopied 1353:19 photographs 1092:24 1123:6 1292:18 photom icrographs 1088:23 1089:7,24 1292:8 1306:5 1349:6 phrase 1218:24 1293:17,18 phraseology 1095:11 p hrases 1218:3 physical 1121:10 1362:8 physician 1146:4 physiological 1304:10 physiologist 1304:11,15 pick 1120:5 1144:9,15,17,21 1275:15 1304:7 1307:3,13 1312:4 picture 1115:17 1125:1 1138:18,25 1292:22 1336:14 1337:12 1354:6 pictures 1124:15 1138:22 1176:15 1353:12,18,19 piece 1093:4,5 1166:13 1395:8 pieces 1114:19,21 1136:2 1221:21 pier 1312:20 1375:9 pigm ent 1059:9 1060:9 1061:8 pile 1114:16 1292:15 1310:15 1396:24,24 pinpointed 1166:3 1397:21 piolato 1214:14 pipe 1249:3 p ira 1231:11 1234:14 p iro 1420:11 place 1130:1 1154:2 1294:4 1307:22 1344:24 placed 1070:15 1114:11 1136:8 1192:23 1194:1 plain 1099:19 1184:23 1231:20 1251:25 plaintiff 1061:4 1066:11 plaintiffs 1058:4 1059:5 1060:5 1062:2 1063:7 1089:25 1423:22 planning 1080:24 1310:16 p lan t 1095:22 1164:19 1379:7,9 1425:22 plaster 1108:24 1110:3 plasters 1109:15 plate 1081:14 1093:3,3,5 1115:19,23 1124:22 1125:5,13 1136:4,16 1202:25 1203:5 1279:12 platelet 1367:1 platelets 1305:18 plates 1081:11,12 1115:9,9 1124:14 1124:16 platiness 1081:13 1112:12 1113:23 platin u m 1205:8 platy 1081:5,6,8 1082:20 1093:6 1115:8,20 1124:13 1135:4 1136:10 please 1066:14 1068:22 1070:13 1077:15 1081:6,22 1083:6,20 1085:10 1091:13 1092:11 1097:1,7,16 1101:22 1108:5 1118:17 1125:3 1131:9 1138:2 1199:12 1209:19 1214:8 1227:11 1235:5 1295:21 1299:20 1317:2 1326:16 1337:15 1354:10 1391:9 1404:3 pleased 1221:14 p leu ra 1226:3 1401:5 pile 1064:22 plm 1317:18 p ltf 1421:4,8 plus 1099:4 1184:18 1230:12 1380:25 pm 1142:21,22 1154:9 1168:9,10 1209:20,21 1242:13,14 1250:14,15 1280:14,15 1289:12,13 1340:7 1340:8 1387:4,5 1401:21,22 1413:18,19 1414:9 pneumoconiosis 1219:15 1226:10 1236:3,9 po 1062:19 point 1067:19 1081:13 1109:10 1114:1 1115:10 1119:15 1144:21 1144:24 1163:15 1181:4 1182:23 1184:11 1206:24 1252:23 1276:13 1278:8 1286:17 1289:15 1332:17 1347:7,22 1364:19 1372:22,23 1375:7 1378:15 1383:13 1391:25 1395:16 1396:20 pointed 1091:17 1092:19,23 1176:15 1203:23 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [pointed - powders] Page 60 1214:14 1296:9 1305:17 1323:3 1376:12 points 1291:6 1404:25 poisonous 1359:25 1387:14 polarized 1140:16 1141:6 1152:16 1153:1,24 1313:21 policy 1140:11,14 1141:8 1374:1 polish 1189:19 political 1110:16 pond's 1174:17 pooley 1083:10,18 1084:6 1085:23 1087:2,25,25 1088:8,16 1089:9 1091:8,14,16 1092:4 1128:13 1129:24 1155:20 1156:2 1157:15,16 1157:24 1158:2,19 1160:12,17 1161:10 1163:2,4 1284:3 1299:3,7 1299:11,15,16 1300:2 1308:18 1357:3,6,21,25 1362:6,10,13 1363:3 1364:22 1392:23 1394:6,11 1394:11,14,18,22 1394:22 1395:3 1406:23 1407:10 1407:10 1417:8,11 1422:11 1423:3 1425:8 pooley's 1284:13 1299:5 1362:15,19 poor 1145:15 1171:1 1183:24 1392:20 population 1214:18 1229:6 1237:1 1338:11 p ortion 1083:2 1091:10,11 1094:19 1177:7 1194:17 1216:10 1276:1 1369:12 1376:5 1392:3 portions 1082:2,2 1095:17 1205:1 posed 1179:1 poses 1177:22 position 1074:22 1206:1 1239:19 1261:23,24 1346:6 positions 1067:11 positive 1148:24 1201:18 1314:16 1326:12 1336:3,10 1338:1 possibility 1151:14 1379:22 possible 1136:4,16 1166:1 1179:1 1203:12 1263:10 1273:25 1290:22 1316:14 1381:19 1385:12 1397:19 possibly 1110:19 1201:1 1358:23 1364:13 post 1253:10 1299:7 1345:8 posted 1260:19 potential 1164:23 1177:21 1210:15 1239:21 1317:7,13 1359:13,14 1376:16 potentially 1317:20 pots 1294:15,15 pound 1167:20 1246:21 1248:4,7 1248:17,24 1249:7 1249:17,18,21 1250:3,4 1252:6 1294:15 1305:25 1306:2 1379:3 pounds 1248:10 1249:24,24,25 pow der 1068:6 1069:1 1080:10 1082:25 1083:13 1083:18,22 1084:8 1086:16 1102:6,15 1102:17,19 1103:2 1103:3 1105:5,7 1109:11 1110:2,7 1111:9,23 1112:18 1116:1 1119:3,5,6 1119:7,8,15,16,19 1119:23,24 1120:2 1120:7,16,22 1121:23 1122:1 1124:8 1126:4 1129:22 1135:24 1136:23 1137:2,4 1141:12 1144:22 1145:14 1147:5,10 1149:18,25 1150:9 1150:12 1153:16 1153:19,20 1155:8 1155:17 1156:1,10 1156:23 1159:16 1171:15 1173:1 1177:11 1179:5,8 1186:7,9 1187:10 1187:21,24 1188:19,20,22,23 1188:23 1190:7,8 1192:7,8,10 1238:10 1239:5,10 1239:12,15,17 1242:5 1243:9 1244:14,19 1245:5 1245:14 1246:7,14 1250:6 1264:4 1266:7 1270:21 1281:21 1283:7 1292:11 1293:14 1296:10 1298:21 1299:10 1303:22 1328:10,18 1339:13 1340:12 1340:24 1347:7 1366:14,25 1370:20,24 1378:18 1379:25 1384:10,10,22 1386:11,22 1388:17 1389:11 1389:14 1396:16 1396:17 1399:2 1410:8 1417:6 1422:4 1423:15 pow dered 1121:12 1416:7 pow ders 1084:23 1112:18 1127:7 1151:10 1173:2 1179:3 1187:12 1188:11,21 1238:20 1239:9 1242:5 1317:23 1326:10 1340:19 1340:20 1362:3 1371:3 1386:5 1399:13 1418:6,6 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [powders - probably] Page 61 1418:22 1425:10 pow er 1115:17 1338:13 1339:1 1370:22 pow ered 1138:20 1261:12 ppl 1088:23 pr6139 1340:24 practically 1375:25 p ractice 1075:1 1336:25 1414:2 p re 1233:7 1297:18 1300:1 1346:15 preceded 1405:4 precipitated 1175:19 precise 1270:11 prediction 1290:24 prefix 1100:10 1104:3 prejudice 1196:23 prelim inary 1084:22 1186:15 1187:13 1222:18 1232:13 1248:5 1420:17 prem arket 1070:16 1118:24 preparation 1348:19 1349:12 1349:16 1352:25 preparations 1350:4 1351:21 p re p a re d 1222:21 1253:2 1353:2,4 prep arin g 1261:17 1323:20 1351:23 prepublication 1222:20,23 1223:4 1223:8,9,10 1226:6,8 1227:6 1253:8 1254:25 1255:3,8,16,17,21 1255:22 1256:7 1400:12,18,21 1401:18 1402:17 1402:19 1403:1,25 1404:17 1405:14 prepublished 1402:25 prescribe 1146:4 prescribed 1145:24 presence 1089:8 1092:23 1123:8 1177:21 1179:1 1182:18 1191:23 1203:13 1305:14 1305:17 1314:13 1359:7 1364:13 presen t 1065:23 1085:19 1089:22 1092:18 1096:18 1096:24 1097:21 1099:11,12 1120:4 1120:5,61121:1 1123:15 1135:16 1135:17 1137:18 1139:4 1143:15 1150:11 1153:13 1159:7 1174:24 1177:20 1181:12 1194:20 1208:8 1209:2 1274:14 1284:6 1304:1,3 1307:8 1343:10 1346:6,9 1347:1 1349:16 1361:24 1362:7 1367:8 1369:7,20 1370:5 1371:20 1388:17 1398:1 presentation 1091:7 1376:5 1394:17 1407:21 presen ted 1073:23 1074:1 1085:14 1088:16 1091:22 1092:4 1203:23 1211:15 1218:17 1357:22,23 1358:1 1358:4 1362:15 1372:12 1402:11 1402:13 1403:7,11 1405:9,20 presently 1194:8 1326:3 1387:19 p resid en t 1251:8 press 1157:6 1261:8 p ressu re 1394:5 pressures 1362:18 1363:4 1364:3 presum ing 1238:21 p re tty 1070:2 1113:16 1139:13 1139:19 1171:17 1172:15 1215:22 1221:20 1225:11 1226:11 1233:13 1237:20 1239:12 1269:24 1290:25 prevent 1116:16 1346:10 1347:2 prevents 1081:16 previous 1125:10 1164:8 1167:7 1175:17 1202:5 1258:13 1291:2 1348:20,21 1412:5 previously 1075:23 1077:13 1080:1 1081:25 1084:14 1086:22 1090:15 1094:15 1095:19 1097:6 1098:10 1100:13 1101:5 1105:10 1106:201140:1 1156:21 1165:12 1199:15 1204:16 1210:12 1214:1 1216:5 1217:14 1222:14 1223:23 1290:19 1424:6 price 1251:16 prices 1251:20,24 prickly 1126:12 principle 1241:12 1241:16 principles 1241:9 p rin t 1150:23 1187:2 1224:1 p rin ted 1085:14 p rin to u t 1139:2 p rio r 1133:14 1134:2,6 1154:16 1212:3 1289:4 1362:13 1398:17 p rio rity 1431:1 prism atic 1099:18 private 1362:17 privately 1071:6 p ro b ab ly 1071:4,4 1071:12,12 1111:3 1111:3 1124:9 1138:11 1142:1 1143:24 1145:5,15 1154:2 1203:18 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [probably - prof) Page 62 1231:7 1266:17 1270:17 1278:6 1287:3,4,8,10 1332:17 1375:15 1381:3 problem 1111:8 1222:8 1251:19 1311:24 1387:18 1392:14 problem s 1073:17 procedure 1093:18 1098:14 1148:23,23,24,25 1149:1,8,10,11,11 1310:191313:19 1367:6 1426:7 procedures 1098:25 1140:5 1314:14 proceed 1148:23 1250:18 proceedings 1429:4 process 1082:16 1082:19,19,22 1098:21 1112:14 1128:7 1135:22 1136:7 1137:6 1142:25 1143:8 1149:4 1152:1 1169:1,2 1170:23 1197:25 1201:4 1207:19,19 1247:18 1266:23 1271:22 1306:3 1310:21 1312:16 1422:13 processed 1247:23 1273:4,9,21 1345:21 processes 1143:10 1315:12 p ro c te r 1065:11 1071:9 procurem ent 1215:15 produce 1247:15 1388:17 produced 1103:6 1104:16,17,18 1107:23 1129:16 1132:6 1194:8 1243:24 1326:1,4 1413:21 1420:23 producing 1097:2 1108:4 1132:2,15 1251:25 p ro d u c t 1070:21 1074:4 1084:1 1092:7 1096:10,14 1096:17 1100:18 1113:21 1121:9,11 1121:18,19 1122:7 1122:8,12 1126:25 1127:10 1128:6 1129:17,22 1130:8 1131:16,19 1134:6 1134:22 1135:9,24 1136:23,24 1141:9 1149:25 1151:20 1152:8,11 1156:14 1159:10,13 1160:7 1166:23 1167:1,15 1169:4,13 1170:9 1170:13,20,22 1171:20 1177:4 1182:19,21 1191:24 1192:2,19 1193:23 1198:10 1201:24 1207:3,13 1207:20 1208:11 1209:3 1238:22 1240:6,7,15,18,23 1242:11 1243:25 1244:5,6 1245:19 1247:6,25 1248:1 1266:24 1268:12 1269:7,10,22,23 1270:10 1272:4 1291:20,21 1294:14 1295:15 1296:16,23,25 1305:10 1322:5 1325:7 1335:11 1344:13 1347:3,15 1373:23 1374:2 1378:11,23 1385:3 1386:1,8 1395:13 1395:15,21 1398:8 1398:8 production 1103:8 1104:4,10,21 1107:13 1243:17 1245:13,20,21 1246:15 1248:8,9 1248:19,21,25 1249:4,8,10,19 1250:5 1300:1 1326:9 products 1067:20 1068:2,3,4,5,7,9 1068:12,14,15,18 1069:21,25 1070:14,18 1071:2 1072:20 1073:21 1086:17 1096:12 1102:15 1109:14 1111:10,10,24 1117:9 1118:19 1125:21,24 1126:4 1130:10 1133:6 1134:13,13 1137:4 1139:16 1143:5 1151:17 1153:19 1153:22 1154:14 1157:5,8 1163:11 1167:91169:16 1170:4 1171:15 1172:22,22,23 1173:5 1174:14,17 1174:22,25 1175:4 1176:12,23 1177:22 1179:10 1181:3,13,20,25 1182:6 1183:18 1185:17 1188:4,15 1188:17,25 1189:4 1189:7,19,20,23 1189:24 1190:1,2 1190:2 1191:22 1192:4,6 1208:24 1208:25 1209:6,10 1209:25 1210:2,5 1210:7 1238:3,6 1239:2,21,22,24 1239:25 1240:16 1241:13,14 1242:8 1242:11 1243:10 1243:11,12,14,25 1244:17 1245:8 1246:22 1248:23 1289:2,6 1291:8 1299:6,15 1357:1 1357:14 1358:12 1362:12 1376:8,15 1376:19 1377:20 1377:24 1389:14 1393:4 1396:17 1398:12,14,21 1399:1 1418:16 1423:5 p ro f 1215:6 1428:5 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [professional - put] Page 63 professional 1068:4,9,12 1074:5 1079:12 1201:4 1202:4 1206:4 1362:18 1363:4 1364:3 1373:11 1403:19 professionally 1069:11 professor 1083:10 1088:4,16 1128:13 1129:24 1178:20 1180:22 1214:13 1214:22 1215:21 1216:17,20 1372:12 1394:22 1395:3 p rofundity 1222:8 p ro g ram 1070:11 1129:25 1130:3 1132:12,12 1171:6 1172:7,8 1173:13 1206:14 1211:15 1259:18 1294:3 1345:2 1346:20,22 1417:24 program s 1072:19 1195:22 progress 1132:4 1132:14 1158:8 1396:23 progressed 1134:21 1228:12 project 1165:10 1171:16 1172:12 1174:22 1189:17 1248:14,15 properly 1204:10 p ro p erties 1120:8 1186:17 1187:17 proportion 1193:22 1266:23 1267:8 proposal 1207:23 1261:1 1262:16 proposed 1133:9 1210:18 1260:25 1273:2,20,24 1416:14 proposition 1377:22 prospect 1379:19 prospective 1391:7,14 protect 1109:22 protocol 1095:2 1215:23,24 1311:12 proved 1195:7 proven 1242:10 proves 1156:22 1159:15 provide 1077:5 1079:7,16 1089:1 1123:7 1151:19 1208:2 1220:23,25 1335:2 1396:4 provided 1088:8 1088:24 1090:3 1091:23 1132:10 1151:241164:5 1218:15 1220:23 1335:9 1342:8 provides 1096:22 1229:12 providing 1117:14 1122:11 1167:3 1275:14 1335:2,5 p ru d en t 1273:5,22 pseudo 1286:1 public 1072:25 1076:11,17 1187:4 1242:1 1261:17 1315:22 1316:23 1383:2 1424:10,12 1431:24 publication 1223:24 1224:8,21 1225:20 1228:1,5 1228:25 1234:8 1235:13 1253:25 1254:1 1255:19 1256:20,24 1257:16 1362:22 1389:18 1400:8 1401:3 1405:4 publications 1073:23 1198:13 1383:1,2 1389:22 1400:5 publicity 1166:17 publicly 1261:10 publish 1073:20 1363:22 published 1073:3 1073:8 1145:2,3 1166:17 1185:24 1188:5 1197:21 1223:17,18 1225:2 1226:16 1227:7,23 1230:18 1233:25 1236:17 1241:23 1253:14,16,16,19 1255:22,23 1307:2 1357:8,19,20 1361:7 1363:9,10 1363:13,22 1364:5 1364:8 1390:1,2 1400:24 1402:3,4 1402:5,23 1403:5 1404:5 1405:9,21 1407:16 pull 1164:25 1207:23 1280:12 pulverized 1339:13 p u rch ase 1077:8 purchased 1077:6 1171:201264:12 1265:3 1358:12 purchaser 1122:12,14 1134:12 p u re 1117:2 1128:6,8 1341:5,7 1342:18 1343:8 1344:20 p u rest 1367:2 purified 1371:24 purifying 1082:18 pu rity 1112:25 1124:7 1131:14 1132:20 1147:2 1151:2 1171:22 1195:23 1367:5 1387:21 1398:25 1419:19 purportedly 1261:4 p u rp o rts 1076:5 1394:1 p urpose 1070:7 1094:22 1214:10 1288:5 purposes 1123:4,5 1315:22 1316:23 p u t 1077:2 1084:10 1099:19 1114:1 1131:9 1136:19 1139:20 1146:7 1222:12 1240:12 1248:1 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [put - ranges] Page 64 1261:24 1285:4,11 1304:2 1313:2 1319:10 1325:7 1328:8 1347:15 1348:25 1352:21 1363:4 1394:5 1408:19,21 puts 1347:12 putting 1193:10 1258:10 1261:22 _____ q_____ q& a 1376:12 qualification 1070:25 1112:13 1127:25 1157:11 qualifications 1066:16 1129:21 qualified 1111:17 1112:3,21 1118:25 1127:14 1131:4 1197:24 qualify 1129:10 qualities 1222:1 quality 1079:10,12 1079:20 1080:19 1082:25 1087:22 1112:9 1117:14,21 1122:9 1126:5,15 1127:1,4 1128:2 1130:5,15 1131:25 1131:25 1132:9 1133:17 1134:24 1134:25 1135:8,20 1136:10,14 1137:1 1141:22 1145:22 1146:10 1147:2 1148:161149:5 1151:2,5 1161:5 1171:12,22 1194:18 1195:22 1196:8 1202:21 1203:9 1233:8 1293:13,21 1327:2 1339:10 1347:10 1367:4 1374:6 1391:18 1392:21 1395:14 1396:5 1422:3 quantifiable 1329:19 1334:5 quantification 1098:15 1426:9 quantitative 1203:22 q u an tity 1307:21 1339:17,21 q u a rte r 1348:9 1351:8 1355:14 1356:12 q u a rte re d 1109:5 q u arterly 1132:13 1132:15 1134:21 1134:22 1295:13 1309:6 1321:19 1322:1 1347:23 1350:23 1355:17 1356:17 1396:22 q u arts 1220:12 q u a rtz 1359:8 1423:18 quasi 1147:14 question 1077:20 1105:2 1131:3 1141:61145:15 1150:10 1171:1 1197:7 1209:12 1221:11 1240:13 1254:8 1261:13 1265:20,21 1266:14 1275:8 1279:15 1284:5 1296:13 1299:21 1304:6,10 1306:19 1307:18 1319:5 1332:18 1335:16 1335:17 1337:10 1337:16,17 1338:17,21,22,23 1338:24 1339:4 1354:22 1357:9 1360:12,17,21,25 1364:14 1365:4 1369:8,10 1384:15 1385:13 1386:17 1386:18 1393:19 1405:7 1406:15,22 1411:14 questionable 1195:6,12 questioning 1074:12 1076:1 1089:6 1204:21 1245:10 questions 1074:13 1075:10 1077:17 1079:1,24 1083:7 1084:12 1089:5 1092:17 1097:13 1151:13 1166:6 1195:8 1198:17 1213:2 1214:4,5 1220:2 1224:12 1242:16,19 1250:18,19 1251:3 1254:21 1263:22 1275:10,11 1277:13 1299:19 1318:21 1389:3 1394:3,7 1395:6,9 1397:1,4 1398:24 1399:4,7 1412:22 1413:16 quick 1084:15 1154:6 1275:2 q u ick er 1262:7 qu irin 1064:22 quite 1109:15 1117:5 1135:1 1180:8 1190:18 1233:6 1237:19 1238:12 1242:8 1245:17 1262:21 1345:25 1381:17 quote 1148:20 1186:18 1217:9 1285:23 quoted 1179:7 1392:22 quotes 1411:4 r r 1062:1 1063:1 1064:1 1065:1 1118:5 1123:12 1231:11 1235:18 1425:4 r& d 1067:18,21 1247:5,5,11 1248:14 rail 1168:12,15,16 1168:18,20,22 1170:22 1294:13 1295:16,24 1321:15,23 1322:1 1322:2,4 raise 1115:16 1229:22 raised 1074:13 1075:10 1151:14 1195:8 1223:5 raising 1251:16 ranges 1099:16 1104:11,17 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [rat - recollect] Page 65 ra t 1211:3,7,13,18 1212:16 rate 1113:12 ratio 1331:13 ratios 1288:25 1323:24 rats 1072:9 1211:5 1211:9,16,20 raw 1073:2 1105:20 1106:7 1121:181151:16 1152:21 1258:22 1358:11,15 1373:23 1376:2,3 1376:7,13 1377:19 1378:4,6,6,9,22 1416:6 1426:20 raw le 1064:12 raw le.co m 1064:14 ray 1085:12 1091:18 1092:1 1093:19 1099:3,4 1120:3 1128:4 1137:22 1139:1,1 1140:6,12,15 1141:5 1142:15 1143:14 1144:8,16 1149:8 1158:6 1176:3,8,14,16 1177:11,11,12 1179:21 1180:1 1184:17 1200:19 1202:15,15 1271:7 1271:10 1281:21 1282:8 1288:13 1291:10 1292:20 1308:23 1310:6 1313:19 1370:11 reach 1074:24 1172:25 1379:7 1392:6 reached 1270:12 react 1073:10 1109:16 reacted 1073:15 reaction 1366:15 reactive 1184:12 reacts 1071:19 1072:13 read 1072:25 1075:5 1082:2,2,3 1083:2,3,6 1085:1 1085:3 1086:24 1088:8,11 1091:12 1091:13 1092:16 1093:12 1095:17 1097:16 1103:16 1118:17 1159:14 1159:17,17 1161:23 1162:4 1197:12 1199:12 1205:1 1215:20 1217:22,25 1230:21 1232:8 1244:9 1245:17 1252:18 1265:14 1267:20 1268:14 1272:17 1273:12 1281:14 1285:19 1289:19 1291:5 1296:5,8 1297:14 1313:12 1317:24 1323:12 1339:5,5 1358:25 1363:1,2 1365:3 1387:25 1388:11 1394:20 1395:2 1413:24 1429:3 readers 1078:17 readily 1202:9 reading 1271:7 1320:17,23 1387:23 1390:12 1413:23 readings 1204:10 readouts 1331:17 read s 1359:11 read y 1127:8 reag en t 1095:21 1284:16,23 1425:21 real 1238:11 1292:22 reality 1175:22 1265:18 1337:11 1379:20 realized 1179:20 1204:9 really 1087:10 1287:2 1303:18 1337:11 1392:8 1408:8,8 reason 1095:7 1142:7 1175:14 1184:2,4 1199:13 1209:9 1210:8 1240:17,22 1271:4 1291:1 1355:5 1361:7 1389:12 1390:25 1394:25 1407:9 1431:5 reasonable 1248:16,20 1250:2 1250:7 1251:20 1375:24 1386:2,8 reasonably 1207:3 1207:13 1208:11 1260:23 reasons 1120:8 1196:22 1314:20 1327:18 1362:15 reassurance 1096:22 re a th 1064:3 recall 1165:25 1198:24 1212:20 1219:13 1253:6 1266:25 1269:3 1271:9 1273:8 1296:3 1298:14 1318:19 1385:15 1394:7 1397:4,18 1400:4 recalled 1297:3 1415:3 receive 1122:7 1168:4,21 received 1077:22 1077:24 1079:17 1086:11 1111:24 1121:25 1124:2 1133:17 1190:18 1195:4 1216:13 1252:1 1261:18 1294:12 1391:7 receiving 1083:9 1369:21 1396:16 recognition 1117:13 recognize 1094:14 1240:9 1316:12 recognized 1115:7 1118:9,12,13,18 1118:21,25 1180:1 1221:12 1229:20 1290:15,20 1303:11 recognizes 1325:18 recollect 1175:6 1175:11 1197:12 1197:14 1246:1 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [recollect - relates] Page 66 1320:17,23 1390:12 1402:8 recollection 1134:20 1278:3 1407:9 recom m endation 1313:16 recommended 1327:23 recom m ending 1386:21 record 1066:1,2 1083:4 1086:6,7 1088:8 1103:6,10 1103:20 1104:3,15 1108:8,9 1139:24 1142:21,22 1154:8 1154:9 1168:9,10 1186:20 1209:20 1209:21 1242:12 1242:13,14 1250:13,14,15 1259:5 1280:14,15 1283:13 1289:12 1289:13 1323:9 1324:25 1340:7,8 1356:3 1387:2,4,5 1390:3 1396:20 1401:20,21,22 1413:18,19 1430:9 recorded 1215:11 1375:18 1430:6 recording 1375:18 1412:11 records 1110:8 1120:24 1130:20 1215:7,7 1246:17 1335:7 1381:4 red 1073:10 redo 1337:5,7,20 1337:23 1338:1 redone 1329:2,3 reduce 1284:7 1285:12 reducing 1317:7 reduction 1284:22 1285:5,21 re fe r 1219:7 reference 1102:18 1139:3 1220:17,20 1223:21 1244:12 1245:22 1253:25 1254:1 1273:1,19 1286:5 1347:8 1394:5 referenced 1245:3 1338:25 references 1195:11 1393:10 referred 1179:6 1224:4 referrin g 1104:6 1196:9 refers 1214:21 1219:1 refined 1339:12 reflect 1087:4 1089:12 1169:21 1175:15,22 1201:9 1201:22 1203:7 1214:21 1226:21 reflected 1080:3 1101:24 1105:3 1152:23 1176:11 1176:12 1177:15 1199:101226:6 reflecting 1337:12 reflects 1085:22 1153:15 1269:24 1392:20 refractive 1092:21 refractory 1281:20 1282:11 refresh 1230:7 reg ard 1286:6 1372:11 regarded 1302:24 reg ard in g 1105:23 1150:15 1167:5 1170:24 1172:25 1176:22 1183:3 1189:13 1199:4,13 1204:19 1208:10 1210:23 1224:14 1273:2,20 1287:21 1322:22,22 1396:5 1397:2 1398:25 1399:12 regardless 1272:2 1283:25 regards 1088:22 1375:1 registration 1070:16 reg u lar 1069:6 1129:15 1130:4,8 1131:22 1132:5 1136:25 1137:1 1154:20 1168:5 1171:19 1183:4 1305:2,4 1306:13 1321:20 1347:23 1370:4 1396:22 regularly 1129:6 1305:7 1380:20 1396:10 regulation 1273:20,21,24 1421:11 regulations 1273:2 regulators 1129:4 regulatory 1315:22 1316:23 1377:1 reinforced 1376:22 1377:17 reiterating 1277:15 rejected 1297:4 rejection 1305:16 relate 1078:22 1103:3 1140:25 1168:12 1223:1 1241:11 1412:16 related 1073:10 1078:25 1090:1 1100:61101:21 1102:11 1108:23 1126:2 1168:22 1171:8 1179:5,15 1189:6 1204:25 1206:23 1216:2 1219:9,22 1227:2 1228:9 1231:13 1235:1 1237:11 1318:8 1383:1 1391:3 1394:23 1397:11 relates 1071:23 1097:2 1102:4 1106:7 1107:19 1119:23 1121:12 1121:18 1123:8 1124:7 1132:19 1168:2 1197:10 1201:7 1208:24 1223:25 1225:13 1227:16 1229:8 1232:19 1241:19 1268:16 1354:25 1389:23 1392:2 1413:23 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [relating - reports] Page 67 relating 1102:14 1150:24 1240:23 relation 1373:16 relationship 1066:25 1088:2 1089:17 1107:5 1168:16 1185:8 1197:2,15 1219:20 1237:12,15 1268:22 1338:14 1399:24 relative 1184:15 1199:22 1203:17 1430:12,15 relatively 1099:13 1133:25 1142:5 1207:22 1223:11 1312:1 1314:21 relevance 1105:6 1395:17 relevant 1078:22 1104:23 1123:24 1196:25 1197:1 1317:22 1335:11 1425:10 reliability 1195:14 reliable 1346:3 reliably 1281:24 relocated 1067:19 rely 1079:4,15 1365:12 rem ainder 1082:4 rem aining 1182:6 rem em ber 1075:25 1129:9 1138:20 1198:17 1214:2,3 1222:15 1235:11 1253:12 1254:3,6 1269:19 1278:24 1285:14 1328:4,15 1332:16 1332:22,25 1341:11 1384:2 1387:23 1390:10 1390:12 1391:5 1392:25 1394:3 1395:9 1409:17 1411:4 1413:10,11 1413:14 rem em bered 1270:2 rem ind 1081:6 1083:20 1085:10 1089:16 1090:25 1097:1 1143:1 1164:18 1183:13 rem it 1265:4 rem oval 1367:17 1368:15 rem ove 1273:4,9 1273:21,25 1367:7 1369:6,20 rem oved 1109:21 1136:14 1274:25 1329:5 1367:20 1404:19 rem oves 1367:14 rep 1376:23 1377:18 re p e a t 1265:1 repeatedly 1388:1 replicate 1184:19 reply 1261:21 1275:2,3 rep o rt 1070:20 1080:8,12 1081:1 1081:17,23 1082:15 1083:10 1083:14 1084:6,7 1084:21,22 1085:23,24 1087:2 1087:6 1088:9,10 1088:13,16,17 1089:10,23 1090:4 1090:19,24 1091:14 1095:21 1096:9 1101:14,24 1102:9 1105:22 1108:1 1118:14 1152:20 1153:21 1155:21,21,24 1156:2,3 1157:15 1158:4,12,19,21 1159:5 1161:10,12 1161:21 1164:21 1168:22 1169:12 1169:25 1172:6,17 1174:10 1175:8 1176:22 1178:21 1180:15,23 1181:23 1183:16 1184:1 1185:14 1186:5,10,13,22 1188:5 1190:11,12 1195:17 1200:13 1204:15 1219:24 1220:19 1221:6 1230:6 1231:12 1232:10,11,13 1233:24 1237:5 1260:19 1261:9 1276:2,22 1278:20 1280:6 1285:9,17 1285:19,22 1289:24,25,25 1301:13 1302:8,12 1318:24 1320:17 1320:19 1321:6 1323:15,15 1328:8 1328:16,22,25 1329:25 1334:4,10 1334:14 1348:5,17 1348:24 1353:3 1355:5 1356:2,7 1365:8 1378:17 1379:20 1387:8 1390:15,20 1391:2 1392:1,14 1393:24 1417:11,20 1418:12 1420:18 1422:24 1424:20 1425:3,8 1426:3 1426:13 rep o rted 1101:14 1102:11 1129:24 1152:14,24 1154:1 1175:25 1176:24 1177:3,4,5,17 1179:7,9,14 1188:101191:23 1194:13 1195:9 1199:24 1200:19 1211:23 1218:7 1236:10 1237:8,9 1237:22 1257:13 1277:25 1278:2 1297:19 1299:7,8 1302:19 1364:12 1400:13 rep o rted ly 1177:9 rep o rter 1058:19 1103:19 1104:9,12 1131:2 1224:24 1247:9 1269:12 1289:9 1356:21 1397:6 1430:1,3 rep o rtin g 1166:7 1167:4 1181:2 1219:22 1324:16 1431:1 reports 1084:22 1085:23,25 1086:3 1086:12 1099:2 1107:17 1151:12 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [reports - reveo] Page 68 1155:13 1156:6,20 1169:5 1186:4 1192:19 1195:4 1214:10 1238:14 1258:10,21 1299:161301:8 1302:2 1348:22 1412:4,5,5,14 represent 1242:25 1243:5 1363:17 representation 1394:12 representative 1074:22 1096:21 1239:18 1289:5 representatives 1174:12 1192:20 represented 1177:25 represents 1352:24 reproducibility 1184:18 republished 1364:4 request 1193:17 1193:25 1313:7 1362:24 requested 1131:2 1288:2 requesting 1193:20 re q u ire 1112:11 1127:6 1193:13 1210:6,9 1247:24 1273:5,22 1312:10 required 1122:9 1129:8,17 1130:15 1131:25 1143:10 1168:4 1196:3 1321:16 1326:22 1431:21 requirem ent 1070:191123:21 1132:3 1133:24 1168:23 1294:20 1416:14 requirem ents 1113:22 1116:25 1126:6 1133:10 1134:23 1224:8 1310:10 1396:12 requires 1141:4 1142:9 1310:11 reread 1407:23 rereviewed 1212:13 rereviewing 1212:15 research 1106:25 1155:23,25 1185:11 1197:23 1199:17,21 1200:21 1201:9 1202:22 1203:9 1212:18 1221:23 1247:7,10,11,12 1248:15 1249:14 1249:25 1271:18 1294:23 1295:3,4 1295:7 1296:2 1317:14 1342:9 1422:19 1424:20 research er 1088:3 1173:23 1185:7 1216:11 1230:9 1337:4 researchers 1173:17 1188:17 1202:19 1204:2 1231:12 1234:21 1238:1 reserve 1080:19 reserves 1080:6 1081:3 1424:21 resolution 1316:18 resolve 1262:24 resource 1265:23 respect 1096:12 1201:15 respected 1362:19 respectively 1289:1 respects 1184:8 respiratory 1229:14,17,23,24 1230:1 1234:25 respond 1276:14 1366:22 responding 1157:9 1272:12 1377:1 1423:14 responds 1193:19 1325:14 response 1072:4 1193:5,6,18 1194:2 1267:6 1313:7 1419:11 responsibilities 1067:23 responsibility 1067:14 1068:6,14 1070:17 1206:16 1210:4,5 1240:25 1241:13 1347:9,11 1347:16 1380:10 responsible 1067:20 1072:18 1211:17 1380:12 responsive 1280:11 rest 1068:17 1262:25 resubm itted 1362:21 result 1142:8,17 1149:11 1150:11 1179:24 1273:8 1316:1 1338:6 1363:8 1368:8 1395:24 results 1103:2 1105:3,4,6 1164:2 1167:6 1175:22 1176:15 1179:13 1181:22,23 1183:25 1185:2 1188:8 1189:6 1195:6,9,13 1202:8 1204:11 1211:3 1218:7 1224:15 1270:18 1283:3,6 1284:21 1288:5,13,21 1290:10,23,25 1291:3 1314:4,16 1336:3 1338:3 1342:25,25 1348:17 1368:1 1372:7 1373:14 1396:12,25 1412:101419:4 retail 1358:12 retain 1087:12 retained 1073:19 1094:5 1163:10 1179:14 1377:7,11 retired 1128:24 retrospective 1164:7 1308:15 re tu rn 1100:11 re tu rn e d 1187:23 revco 1340:13 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [reverse - right] Page 69 reverse 1066:12 1388:17 reverted 1246:9 review 1070:21 1075:12 1078:21 1092:15 1118:24 1123:20 1128:15 1134:7 1140:6 1151:23 1152:19 1190:14 1204:24 1205:4 1207:10,24 1208:5,6,8,9,25 1210:18,18 1212:10 1215:15 1215:23 1217:4 1223:19 1245:2 1261:8,19 1291:5 1308:21 1315:11 1394:24 review ed 1085:21 1092:18 1102:8 1153:22,22 1161:18 1170:1,2 1170:3,7 1191:5 1196:19 1209:7 1212:2,12 1285:1 1338:16 reviewing 1210:15 1251:12 reviews 1226:9 1308:15 revise 1328:8,11 revised 1218:23 1313:19 1328:25 revising 1318:10 revision 1312:16 1313:17 1392:21 1416:22 1422:13 revisited 1209:11 revlon 1063:12 rh o ad s 1065:3 rh u rs t 1065:5 rice 1116:15 rich ard 1262:10 ric h te rite 1318:5 richw ay 1340:13 rid 1273:17 1284:3 1368:18,21 1368:23,24 1369:23 1370:5 1371:161402:14 rig h t 1082:21 1083:25 1088:5 1090:21 1094:11 1101:13 1104:24 1111:25 1139:20 1142:2 1146:2 1155:11 1173:13 1182:8 1184:23 1185:21,25 1187:22 1191:18 1198:19 1204:12 1213:14 1215:1 1228:16,22 1240:13 1250:12 1251:5 1252:6,10 1252:18,20 1253:2 1253:8,10,13 1254:11,13,19,23 1256:2,8,12,23 1257:1,5,16,17,22 1257:24 1258:2,10 1258:16,23 1259:2 1259:13,18,21,23 1260:5,8,16,25 1261:21,25 1262:3 1262:5,16 1263:2 1263:6,11,20,25 1264:5,10,17 1265:13 1266:4,8 1266:12 1267:4,19 1268:5,15,17 1269:8,9,20 1270:2,4,12,16 1271:13,22 1272:12,16 1273:15,24 1274:3 1274:4,7,15,25 1275:23 1276:9,10 1276:12 1278:10 1278:16,18 1279:6 1281:11 1282:4,16 1282:25 1283:3,22 1284:8,12 1285:4 1286:2,9,14 1287:11 1288:3,9 1289:16,20 1291:14,18,24 1293:11,15 1294:4 1295:5,8,10,19,24 1296:7 1297:9,25 1298:15,16,24 1299:18 1300:5,11 1300:18 1302:13 1302:23,25 1303:7 1303:20,23 1304:16,24 1305:20 1308:4 1309:7,13,22 1310:3,25 1311:2 1311:5,9,13,16,19 1311:22,24 1312:3 1312:7,9,12,23 1313:5,12,22,24 1314:8,17,24 1315:3,10,14,18 1315:23 1316:10 1316:12,19,24 1318:17 1319:6,13 1319:16,22 1320:3 1320:7,8,14 1321:8,11,16,20 1321:22 1322:7,13 1322:20 1323:4,6 1324:1,7,7,9,14 1325:7,13,15 1326:6 1327:5,9 1327:12,14 1328:10,22 1329:7 1329:13,16,21 1330:1,5,8,12,14 1330:17,25 1331:2 1331:5,7,9,12,19 1332:4 1333:4,12 1333:18 1334:6,12 1334:15,18 1336:3 1336:6,15 1337:11 1338:4,8 1339:8 1339:22 1340:1,5 1340:20,25 1341:5 1341:10,23 1342:4 1342:18,21 1343:1 1343:22,25 1344:3 1344:10,14,22 1345:2,25 1346:23 1347:4,7,13,19 1348:2,6,11,13 1349:1,10,23 1350:2 1351:4,16 1351:24 1352:16 1353:7,16,20,24 1354:2,7,13,18 1355:14 1356:8,20 1357:4,7 1358:16 1358:25 1359:10 1360:1,3,9,13,18 1360:22,25 1361:3 1361:14,16 1362:3 1363:1,6,25 1364:5,8,16,25 1365:4,9,9,13,17 1365:19 1366:4,17 1367:14,25 1368:5 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [right - safety] Page 70 1368:19 1370:6,15 1370:16 1371:12 1371:16 1372:3,5 1372:15,22,25 1373:2,18,20 1374:4,21,24 1375:4 1376:2 1377:1,5 1378:7 1378:12,19,23 1379:1,6,8,9,12,17 1379:21,24 1380:6 1380:8,23 1381:13 1381:18,25 1384:6 1384:12 1385:1,11 1385:19,25 1386:12 1388:3,10 1388:19,21 1399:11,13 1400:7 1400:21,23 1401:1 1401:15,17,25 1402:14,22,24 1403:3 1405:25 1406:3,18,21,25 1407:3,6,13,18 1408:3,6,9,17,22 1409:14 1410:9 1411:4,6 rio 1153:11 1375:9 rises 1136:11 risk 1197:2 1230:3 1234:22 1237:16 1238:5,19,23 1339:3 1398:13 risks 1317:14 1318:8,10 rj 1375:9 rm 1105:14 rm s 1376:1 ro b e rt 1251:1 robin 1286:12 1322:16 1326:9 roc 1207:19 rock 1088:25 1090:6 1114:16 1136:1 1161:2,3 1161:12 1200:23 1220:10,14 1221:1 1348:18 1417:12 rocks 1159:1 1184:9 1220:16,18 rods 1328:18 ro g er 1097:11 1107:3 1164:16 1165:1 rohl 1191:2,5,12 1323:8,16 1357:3 1357:6 1362:22 1363:11,12 1382:17 1383:2,18 1423:3 role 1068:1,8,24 1070:6 1096:20 1210:1 roles 1129:6 roll 1279:12 rolle 1177:6 rolled 1280:4 rollo's 1425:4 rom e 1424:16 ronald 1060:3 1065:3 roofing 1116:10 1116:11 roofs 1116:11 rosem ary 1192:7 rough 1414:4,6 roughly 1110:24 1156:12 round 1286:12 1322:15 1326:9 royal 1066:21,24 royston 1170:5 1293:25 1294:7,10 ru b b e d 1114:11 ru b b e r 1116:9 rubbing 1120:20 1307:23 rubino 1212:19 1213:19 1214:13 1214:22 1215:6,21 1216:11,18,21 1217:4,18,25 1218:6 1219:1,4 1219:21 1220:16 1220:21 1221:5,7 1221:9,18 1222:2 1222:4,9,21 1223:25 1224:6,21 1226:13 1227:22 1228:9 1231:4 1234:13 1237:10 1253:7,13 1255:6 1256:2 1334:22 1372:12,19,21 1373:10 1389:16 1400:10 1401:24 1404:6,8 1428:5,8 1428:12 ru b in o 's 1215:3 1219:6,12,18 1221:10 1227:15 1373:16 1400:2 1404:9 rule 1314:12 ru n 1281:3 running 1286:25 ru n s 1159:2 1249:10 ru sh 1202:10 russell 1426:7 _________s________ s 1062:1,18 1063:1 1063:10 1064:1,18 1065:1,23 1118:5 1181:11 1415:12 1431:5 s5888 1409:23 sack 1249:21 sacks 1248:4 1305:25 1306:2 saed 1331:4 1332:7 safe 1068:8 1070:7 1071:25 1072:4 1117:101118:9,12 1118:19,21,25 1151:6 1180:8 1189:21 1192:19 1210:3 1239:25 1241:15 1242:8,11 1263:24 1302:25 1303:11 1315:1 1317:4 1386:8 safety 1067:15 1068:2,25 1069:6 1069:20,23,24 1070:10,18,19,21 1070:23 1071:2,23 1072:19,22 1073:2 1073:20 1074:4,9 1077:6 1117:12,13 1126:14 1151:13 1152:10 1157:5 1177:21 1196:15 1206:9,10,11,17 1207:9 1209:24 1211:5 1212:9 1239:17 1240:17 1241:23,25 1242:4 1261:23 1380:15 1382:9,16,25 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [safety - school] Page 71 1398:25 saint 1063:12 sale 1127:8 1244:18 1245:19 1389:10 sales 1149:15 salt 1119:13,13,14 sam ple 1081:10 1083:12,18 1085:6 1085:7 1086:1 1102:24 1158:11 1166:2,10 1171:19 1177:7,12 1182:13 1182:24 1184:20 1247:6,10 1249:15 1277:25 1282:22 1286:5 1288:17 1292:11,11 1297:17 1305:10 1314:13 1321:1 1349:12,15 1352:10,12,24 1353:1,4 1355:10 1360:8 1391:2 1392:8 1397:20 1406:14 1409:7,23 sam pled 1094:7 1149:21 samples 1073:14 1089:2 1091:23 1092:8 1096:14,17 1097:22 1100:7,10 1101:9,22,23,25 1105:23 1106:1,4 1106:11 1107:10 1141:161144:18 1151:19 1152:16 1152:25 1155:18 1155:20 1156:4 1158:7,8,15,25 1159:2,10,12,20 1160:10,12 1161:13 1165:14 1167:19 1172:20 1173:14,15,25 1176:6 1178:6 1179:9,11,11 1181:101184:20 1186:14 1189:18 1190:8,13 1200:4 1200:20,21 1207:7 1269:20 1281:18 1284:8 1286:7,13 1286:20 1288:6,22 1289:8,19 1291:25 1296:23,24,25 1297:10 1308:15 1314:4 1328:18 1329:15,23 1330:5 1330:7 1348:6,18 1351:18,19 1353:4 1355:4 1358:10,15 1358:16,20,21,24 1360:4 1364:16 1371:4 1390:17,18 1391:7,13,25 1396:21,25 1415:191417:12 1419:9 1422:7 1424:13 1425:10 1426:15 sam pling 1158:23 1158:25 1168:3,6 1355:16,19,21,23 1395:12 1396:1 sandpaper 1120:20 satisfied 1166:23 1407:11 saw 1088:6 1187:10 1282:21 1286:11 1291:2 1298:7,11 1319:23 1337:25 1371:10 1372:22 1400:9 1413:6 saying 1089:21 1099:22 1123:14 1152:7 1194:6 1203:4 1253:1 1257:23,25 1258:1 1266:3 1267:2 1279:18,21 1282:10,10 1289:18 1290:1 1291:11,13 1296:18 1298:22 1322:2 1344:18 1355:9 1363:12 1386:11,22 1391:9 1397:16 1404:12 1406:8 1410:6 says 1078:2 1094:22 1095:12 1101:8 1155:11 1170:10,20 1186:12 1199:12 1202:13 1216:15 1218:18 1219:12 1220:9 1240:14 1241:12 1251:2,8 1251:11 1262:18 1263:14 1264:4 1272:23 1275:24 1276:6 1282:21 1284:17 1286:19 1288:1,12 1290:12 1294:23 1296:17 1299:4 1303:18 1305:12,20 1307:19,19 1313:6 1313:15 1314:1,10 1314:10 1315:14 1321:10 1324:14 1328:21,25 1329:18 1330:11 1330:14,23 1331:4 1332:7 1334:5 1343:5 1346:5,6,8 1346:25 1348:5,16 1358:18 1359:5 1360:7,8,9,11,17 1360:18,20,22 1366:11 1370:6 1371:18 1372:10 1375:5,5 1387:12 1388:12,13,14 1392:21 1394:11 scale 1113:11,13 1113:15 scan 1093:19 1142:6 1319:16,19 scanning 1099:4 1128:5 1177:11,11 1292:21 scans 1139:2 scant 1346:2 scary 1371:21 schaffer 1093:24 schaffner 1155:5,9 1417:5 schedule 1102:9 scheduled 1261:7 schelz 1327:22 scheme 1387:16 schm idt 1105:13 1426:18 school 1066:19 1080:5,14,17 1128:11 1138:20 1155:22 1163:16 1191:10 1198:21 1199:3,8,16,21 1200:3,12 1201:8 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [school - sensitive] Page 72 1202:1,20 1204:1 1269:16 1274:9 1368:13,18 1421:13 1424:19 1427:9 schulze 1183:22 science 1099:20 1113:14,17 1137:10 1191:1,11 1216:25 1217:12 1219:24 1336:23 sciences 1361:19 1423:9 scientific 1075:1 1128:3 1143:21 1146:25 1197:21 1203:8 1205:24 1208:4 1241:18 1261:6 1293:2 1370:11 1371:22 1386:2 1397:25 scientist 1074:23 1128:21 1222:6 1275:15 1286:1,2 1334:12,17 1363:16 1374:14 1374:15 scientists 1074:2 1113:12 1177:5,20 1201:4,10,14 1204:6,9 1238:17 1238:18 scope 1213:25 Scotland 1066:18 1066:19 scram bling 1261:20 screen 1282:9 screening 1316:2 screwed 1279:19 second 1085:7 1092:11 1097:14 1103:23 1104:1 1105:161112:6 1115:3 1131:6 1151:8 1161:25 1165:23 1166:14 1166:16 1168:7 1190:3 1195:17,18 1207:24 1218:13 1253:19 1255:8 1256:19 1258:9,18 1258:22 1263:12 1274:8 1289:25 1291:5 1294:19 1296:1,2 1310:13 1310:19 1326:16 1328:13 1345:14 1345:15 1348:2,8 1353:2 1354:9 1355:14 1356:12 1361:23 1371:18 1397:23 1400:8,13 1400:13 1401:14 1401:24 1404:6 secondly 1203:20 section 1155:25 1221:4 1305:15 1314:15 1323:11 security 1076:11 sedim ent 1300:22 1302:3,10 see 1068:15 1075:21 1081:11 1115:11 1124:17 1136:1 1137:17 1138:23 1140:17 1144:5 1145:21 1211:20 1244:10 1247:8 1250:24 1256:1,7 1257:12 1259:10 1262:9 1263:18 1278:20 1285:12 1286:13 1292:17 1307:15 1308:6,7,8 1311:8 1312:15,19 1315:9 1316:11 1327:8,9 1329:12 1330:4,21 1331:21 1332:2 1333:7 1338:7 1341:4 1344:12 1345:15 1348:2 1349:7 1353:22 1354:12 1356:24 1357:1,3,13 1360:5 1361:12 1374:23 1380:12 1387:2 1391:18 1393:7 1399:16 1405:1 1409:17 1410:1 1411:21 seeing 1092:20 1280:6 1413:4 seen 1101:5,6 1110:8 1123:23 1130:20 1144:6 1150:6,11 1156:22 1170:15,17 1174:8 1178:16 1180:17 1180:18 1192:25 1212:12 1244:16 1244:24 1245:3,7 1245:18 1246:17 1253:22 1256:19 1267:10 1292:8 1297:6 1298:4,8 1303:17 1313:1 1318:14 1321:9 1324:12 1328:1 1335:14 1342:13 1344:16 1354:25 1381:1,1 1386:14 1391:24 1394:10 1394:14 1410:11 select 1416:3 selected 1367:4 selevan 1232:10 1232:20 1233:16 1234:14 1420:15 selikoff 1187:6 1216:24 sell 1143:5 1195:23 1386:3 selling 1110:6 1125:18,21,23 1174:13 1192:18 1347:6 sells 1386:25 sem 1313:21 sem inar 1212:1 1394:13 semple 1366:6,8,9 1380:20 1381:5 1382:4 1383:22 1423:13 send 1110:2 1122:16 1171:19 1171:191391:19 1392:12 1406:14 sending 1101:9 1355:4 senior 1128:21 1362:10 1374:14 1374:15 1378:2 sensational 1371:20 sense 1073:6 1170:25 1240:18 1310:6 sensitive 1165:15 1312:2 1321:2 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [sensitivity - show] Page 73 sensitivity 1139:8 1139:17 1309:1 1319:9,19 1320:2 1320:7,8,12 1321:4 1375:25 1376:16 sent 1186:13 1284:8 1288:7 1329:15 1374:23 1391:14 sentence 1078:2 1097:14,18 1098:4 1099:21 1205:9 1218:18 1274:16 1275:2,3 1291:6 1293:18 1299:13 1369:25 1370:8 1388:8 sentences 1183:20 1238:8 sentiment 1274:10 separate 1068:20 1132:24 1160:19 1203:6 1223:5 1367:7 1369:19 1397:9 1410:10 sept 1425:15 September 1084:20 1090:20 1155:4 1165:11,21 1277:10,19,21 1362:1 1410:8 series 1104:4 1213:6,191412:4 serious 1201:24 1251:15 1305:18 seriously 1150:1 1179:13 1240:24 serpentine 1162:13,14 1184:9 1203:14 1267:18 1358:22 1359:8 serve 1266:11 service 1076:11 1424:11 services 1100:8 1365:25 sesqui 1119:11,18 1276:17,21,24 1410:12 session 1262:21 1362:6 1376:12 set 1069:17 1073:25 1077:10 1078:24 1086:18 1090:12 1094:11 1095:15 1097:4 1098:7 1100:5 1105:8 1108:5 1125:16 1130:1 1136:7 1140:23 1147:21 1148:2,9 1157:10 1159:8 1186:19 1190:16 1197:17 1198:7 1203:5 1204:12 1206:5 1207:25 1215:24,25 1217:13 1227:10 1231:24 1234:4 1236:19 1241:2,8 1253:4 1258:19 1259:2 1263:20 1284:17 1287:18 1289:22 1298:24 1302:20 1312:12 1318:17 1322:13 1323:6 1327:14 1334:8 1340:25 1341:8 1344:25 1349:13 1354:18 1363:24 1364:10 1373:18 1393:24 1402:15 1404:3 1405:23 sets 1146:16 1147:1 1148:11,12 1148:13 1185:19 setting 1206:1 1338:15 1339:11 1339:12 seven 1101:9,25 1102:13 1152:25 1175:10 1358:10 1426:15 seventy 1380:11 1383:7 seym our 1322:22 sg pblaw .com 1062:6,6 shadow ed 1205:8 shannon 1060:4 shape 1093:4 1099:16 sh ard 1093:1,6 shards 1092:25 1272:5 shared 1155:18 1383:4 sharing 1155:15 1228:7 sharia 1062:9 1293:7 1365:23 sharla.frost 1062:11 sh arp 1120:18 shave 1188:23 1192:9,11 shb.com 1062:16 sheet 1330:19 1331:16,18,22 1431:1 shelf 1347:12 1391:12 Shelley 1157:25 1158:20 shelly 1417:8 sherlock 1144:6 shifted 1184:15 ship 1248:21 shipm ent 1168:25 1294:12 shipm ents 1110:201111:7 1158:18 1159:25 1160:15 1170:16 shipped 1137:2 1167:23,23 1168:17,19 1170:6 1248:23 1322:5 shipping 1130:23 1169:4 shook 1058:16 1062:13 sh o rt 1126:18 1143:2 1246:8 1323:22 shortened 1222:17 sh o rter 1333:17 sh o rth an d 1430:7 shortly 1112:15 show 1091:18 1093:19 1115:4 1125:4 1153:3,16 1153:18 1154:25 1169:8 1181:24 1194:18 1202:12 1216:10 1219:14 1222:20 1225:15 1225:22 1254:2 1285:5,21 1299:4 1329:8 1339:17 1353:3 1354:11 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [showed - sites] Page 74 showed 1097:20 1124:15 1140:8 1160:2 1163:25 1166:10 1199:2,5 1209:1 1217:15 1264:2 1292:18 1322:22 1332:22 1337:3 1368:17 1372:2 show er 1084:23 1084:23 1091:22 1091:22 1092:7,7 1102:15,15 1137:4 1137:41141:12,12 1144:22,23 1147:6 1147:6 1149:19,19 1153:20,20 1158:10,11 1243:16,16 1244:14,14,18,18 1245:5,6,14,14 1246:7,7,14,14 1250:6,6 1252:12 1252:12 1275:18 1275:18 1276:7,8 1276:9,10 1277:10 1277:11,16,16,23 1277:24 1278:9,9 1278:13,14 1425:14,14 show ing 1230:3 1284:21 1324:2 1368:3 shown 1100:6 1121:1 1213:5 1220:5 1253:12 1254:24 1269:6,13 1269:15 1271:20 1292:16 1317:15 1323:8 1336:21 1352:2 1358:13 1369:5 shows 1080:2 1115:5,7 1169:25 1184:13 1221:22 1291:8 shulton 1065:10 1065:11,11,12,12 1065:14,14 sic 1392:21 side 1072:8 1081:12 1115:9,14 1307:24 1402:15 sides 1138:4 1332:24 signature 1180:21 signed 1170:4 1414:2 1429:11 1430:19 significance 1083:21 1085:4,11 1086:3,10,14 1087:10 1092:3 1096:19 1100:3,15 1102:3 1106:6 1108:1 1121:17 1124:6 1132:17 1197:16 1200:13 1205:15 1217:3,23 1221:17 1395:17 significant 1081:7 1096:11 1184:7 1194:10 1202:8 1219:18 1229:21 1230:3 1291:9 1326:4 significantly 1194:19 silica 1220:2,12 1229:18 1375:23 1423:19 silicate 1113:7,8 1117:4 1180:6,12 silicates 1117:5 silicosis 1219:15 silkiness 1114:3 silky 1081:15 1120:19 1126:9 1136:17 silos 1168:18 1322:6 sim ilar 1071:12 1112:25 1124:20 1160:24 1180:7,18 1186:17 1187:17 1226:12 1258:21 1311:7 sim m ons 1065:7 sim on 1062:3 sim ple 1072:1 1095:12 1108:23 1135:25 1175:14 1200:17 1224:22 1224:25 1225:1 1229:10 1279:8 sim plified 1138:15 1405:16 sim ply 1093:2 1094:24 1098:4 1099:22 1114:1 1139:5 1177:18 1182:23 1193:10 1196:21 1231:16 1274:14 sinai 1185:7 1187:3 1188:25 1190:22 1191:10 1191:12,21 1297:10 1419:8 1422:7 1423:11 sincere 1222:5 single 1170:14 1176:17 1381:1 sinks 1136:14 sir 1150:22 1164:6 1172:5 1184:24 1193:4 1207:6 1215:25 1235:9 1236:13 1250:22 1250:24 1253:4 1259:2,8 1262:9 1263:20 1272:12 1272:16 1274:7 1287:9,18 1289:22 1290:25 1293:1,8 1297:9 1298:24 1299:18 1302:1 1303:25 1306:16 1312:10,15 1316:101317:24 1318:17 1322:13 1323:6 1324:17 1325:1 1327:5,14 1334:8 1339:9 1340:10 1346:23 1354:5,7,18 1355:24 1356:24 1360:3 1364:10 1365:3 1367:11,25 1368:8,12 1369:23 1373:18 1374:21 1376:19 1387:7 1388:8 1389:4 1393:25 1399:5,11 1399:11 1403:23 1404:3 1405:8 sit 1204:6 1239:20 1266:6 1297:2 1364:7 1383:8 site 1122:1 sites 1226:4 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [sits - speaking] Page 75 sits 1136:11 situation 1075:11 1251:12,18 1366:20 six 1082:21 1158:22 1159:5 1174:12 1266:17 1358:19,21 1380:11 1383:7 1419:19 size 1099:9,13 1114:19,21 1136:1 1155:25 1193:22 1349:17 skill 1198:7 1207:25 1316:14 skin 1073:20 1081:16 1108:25 1109:22,22,25 1114:2,5,11,11 1120:9,13,20 1126:9,12 1132:21 1143:19 1144:1,16 1198:10 1304:7,9 skinner 1357:4 skip 1264:4 1277:8 skipped 1172:15 skipping 1302:21 slid 1144:5 slide 1106:3 1144:2 1307:13,22 1307:24,25 1323:20 1340:18 slides 1081:14 1137:19 1351:23 slightly 1089:18 1109:8 sloan 1427:14 slurry 1350:5 sm all 1119:8 1136:5 1144:6 1178:23 1186:25 1187:2 1235:2 1247:1,2,3 1248:20 1249:2,4 1249:9,12,21 1272:6 1305:17 1307:21 1308:8,25 1351:2,15 1352:25 1367:1,18,20 sm earing 1307:23 sm ith 1213:9,23 1216:14 1217:6,17 1251:1 1368:14 1420:20 1424:15 1427:16,20 1428:4 sm ooth 1081:15 1120:191126:8 1136:18 snapped 1222:11 societies 1066:21 1074:5 society 1066:24 1253:20 1372:13 1402:6 1403:9,20 society's 1361:25 sodium 1119:11 1119:18 1276:16 1276:21,24 1410:12 soft 1113:11,13 1114:2,10 softer 1349:23 softest 1113:16 1136:11 softness 1113:10 1113:22,24 1132:20 soil 1317:16 sold 1109:14,16 1117:16 1125:19 1130:6 1246:20 1249:6 1251:17 1386:6 1398:14 solubility 1122:5 1169:18 soluble 1135:7 1148:13 1169:20 solutions 1059:9 1060:9 1061:8 somebody 1268:12 1286:5 1406:2 somewhat 1097:24 soon 1376:6 soothing 1109:25 sophisticated 1083:13 1084:3 1138:19 1139:19 1140:10 1142:14 1153:5 1221:21 1222:7 sorensen 1365:25 1366:12 1372:7 1423:13 sorry 1082:6 1100:17 1129:13 1144:4 1165:6 1174:13 1187:1 1194:10 1199:23 1225:6 1269:10 1289:9 1291:17 1293:20 1295:6 1308:23 1327:8 1343:11 1352:7 1354:10 1374:16 sort 1072:15 1075:15 1096:4 1113:11 1117:18 1138:7,14 1152:13 1165:17 1168:21 1170:18,23 1198:2 1204:3 1211:7 1221:5 1238:25 1263:8 1287:25 1306:11 1345:1 1398:2 sound 1337:11 sounded 1086:5 1257:19 sounds 1221:8 1248:14 1382:23 source 1110:7,13 1110:25 1111:6,13 1111:15 1112:17 1112:21 1130:18 1130:22 1166:3 1223:16 1244:13 1245:4,12,18 1246:7 1267:13 1270:1 1346:3 1369:2 1390:16 1391:1 1392:6 1397:21 sourced 1110:9,18 1246:13 1345:18 sources 1218:23 1244:5 1296:21 1297:19 1346:2 sourcing 1391:4 south 1063:15 1065:4 1251:25 space 1330:20 spalding 1064:7 spatula 1307:22 speak 1099:20 1285:25 speaking 1134:10 1212:15 1305:25 1319:7 1335:23 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [spec - stated] Page 76 spec 1282:18 1308:2,3 1327:9 speciality 1375:10 specialties 1065:6 species 1091:18 1176:5,7 specific 1074:13 1074:15 1077:23 1078:13 1079:19 1079:22 1111:22 1139:23 1157:13 1179:22 1201:21 1205:11,21 1210:22 1308:14 1337:17 1345:20 1389:24 1391:3 1392:15 1404:18 1411:15,18 1419:16 specifically 1099:10 1126:1 1132:23 1133:21 1137:12,13 1179:4 1204:17 1211:18 1221:41229:8 1231:13 1285:25 specification 1112:11 1117:14 1117:20 1121:8,8 1121:17,18,19 1122:2,4,7,10,13 1122:17 1123:3,7 1124:3 1132:1,19 1132:22,24 1133:9 1133:13,16 1134:1 1134:2 1135:18 1137:6 1168:2,24 1169:23 1170:11 1196:2,3,7 1247:21 1293:24 1294:20 1298:5 1303:17 1304:17 1305:1 1306:18,24 1307:1 1308:11 1326:21,22 1327:1 1374:24 1416:6,13 1423:18 specifications 1121:16 1125:25 1126:1 1134:24,25 1135:11 1145:14 specificity 1313:11 specified 1295:17 1412:13 specifies 1305:4 specify 1275:5 1305:2,24 1327:12 specimens 1088:21 1162:14 spectroscopy 1313:18 1314:2 speculate 1270:5,6 1351:10,11,12 speed 1384:4 speedily 1281:25 spell 1228:22 1235:17 spend 1307:12 spent 1161:1 1202:10 1287:21 1290:10 1299:5 spike 1285:6,20 1287:1 spiked 1285:3,8,18 1285:23 1286:12 1286:20 spiking 1286:5,7 split 1068:19 spoke 1087:24 1096:3 1107:9 1128:16 1139:21 1154:24 1185:4 1201:3 1210:12 1216:8 1389:16 spoken 1110:10 1130:21 1145:8 1196:21 1307:10 1310:18 spun 1192:8 squibb 1063:12 st 1066:17 stability 1248:1 stack 1075:17 1222:12 staff 1190:25 1191:11 1199:19 1221:5,7 1427:11 staffers 1207:21 stage 1127:4 1310:6,8,13 1407:15 staining 1106:4 stam p 1358:7 stam ped 1413:21 stan d ard 1137:7 1137:13 1144:23 1145:2,10 1146:17 1147:8,10 1148:17 1148:19 1149:19 1149:23 1196:10 1211:8 1215:12 1341:8,17,18 stan d ard s 1117:15 1117:18 1130:5,15 1145:16,17 1147:1 1147:6,17,20,21 1148:2,5,12 1171:12 1217:7 standing 1087:16 standpoint 1143:22 1200:22 1375:24 1396:4 stands 1118:9 1247:11 starch 1146:8 starches 1387:20 s ta rt 1253:6 1293:20 1308:12 1345:4 1355:13 1356:12 1362:14 1383:14 1389:8 1396:20 started 1067:3 1110:1 1345:8 1346:20,22 1348:24 1371:9 1380:24 startin g 1110:4 1141:13 1144:24 1165:21 1368:2 state 1058:1 1076:16 1099:6 1103:6,9 1109:4,9 1111:15 1112:7 1130:23 1153:6 1158:12 1194:15 1205:12 1248:16 1250:2 1306:1 1347:8 1351:5 1355:6,25 1356:4 1356:5 1393:12,14 1393:16 1416:16 1424:11 stated 1080:17 1107:21 1151:11 1159:14 1167:7 1177:1 1184:6 1195:19 1199:19 1202:4 1273:4 1275:6 1289:2 1301:12 1323:2 1327:13 1358:17 1377:18 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [statement - subject] Page 77 statem ent 1168:23 1193:21 1322:21 1341:14 1365:6 1367:10,14 1368:21,22 statem ents 1341:3 states 1063:17 1067:9,20 1069:6 1082:17 1089:13 1093:14 1094:24 1098:4 1099:15 1105:24 1107:20 1112:23 1117:16 1118:8,13 1129:13 1130:6 1143:4,13 1146:16 1147:17 1156:21 1158:4 1165:23 1171:13 1173:25 1177:18 1178:22 1181:4 1184:17 1193:11 1206:15 1222:3 1232:11,15 1273:21 1274:16 1274:16 1287:12 1310:1 1314:9 1315:4 1316:25 1323:19 1326:7 1347:5 1388:20 1410:18,21 1412:15 stating 1120:25 1134:16 1273:23 statistical 1395:12 1395:17 1396:4 statistics 1203:24 1216:22 1217:8 status 1166:9 1195:1 1204:15 1231:25 1236:5 1239:20 1427:13 stay 1067:7 stayed 1067:8 1068:20 stefano 1218:2,2 1218:20 step 1082:19,21 1141:9 1177:11 1271:21 1310:20 1311:1,14,21 steps 1126:19,21 1127:15 Stewart 1092:23 1164:21 1165:19 1177:5 1417:15 stick 1410:13 sticking 1116:16 stim uli 1312:16 1422:13 stipulate 1414:1 stipulations 1413:22 stock 1340:16 1351:7 stom ach 1223:7 1226:3,10 1258:11 1401:6 stop 1082:21 1090:21 1116:17 1119:13,16 1133:11 1162:8 1166:5 1211:6 1214:19 1229:15 1367:9 stopped 1182:23 store 1070:3 1171:21 1240:14 stores 1189:18 1358:12 sto rk 1340:13 story 1186:23 1210:16 1269:8 straig h t 1186:20 1255:24 1365:13 straig h tfo rw ard 1410:24 strategies 1317:6 street 1058:16 1062:9,14,19 1063:21 1064:8,13 1064:18,23 1065:4 1178:19 stren g th 1147:1 strike 1245:25 1246:2,5,16 strikes 1245:24 stringent 1150:18 stro k e 1400:2 strong 1109:17 1143:25 stronger 1109:24 stru c tu re 1093:3 1115:8,13 1124:13 1124:22 1125:8,13 1135:3 1307:20 1330:23 1332:2 1333:7 structures 1079:6 1085:15 1126:11 1304:25 1331:21 studied 1363:21 1378:18 studies 1070:22 1072:22 1088:17 1121:20 1206:10 1209:1 1211:4 1217:18 1228:9 1237:11 1261:4,14 1266:20 1267:7,15 1267:24 1318:6 1337:2 1338:25 1339:10,14,16,17 1428:5 study 1071:18 1080:13,18,21 1200:25 1206:12 1211:7,13,14,18 1212:16,25 1213:19,25 1214:15 1215:4,18 1216:2,20,22 1223:25 1224:21 1226:15,21 1227:15,15,22 1228:13 1229:5,12 1230:23 1233:17 1233:20 1234:12 1237:11 1254:4,6 1254:12,13 1256:2 1256:8,11,17,19 1257:21,22 1258:9 1258:13,18 1271:1 1273:8 1280:13 1286:25 1336:24 1337:9,10,21,23 1338:1 1359:4,5,6 1359:7 1361:18 1371:6 1372:2 1376:7 1389:17 1420:4,8 1423:8 1427:18,22 studying 1235:22 stu ff 1108:7 1211:8 1271:3 1272:13 1277:8 1297:25 1302:21 1341:24 1359:18 1377:1 1380:13 stuffs 1117:8 style 1224:10 subject 1105:18 1118:23 1133:8 1155:8,17 1173:16 1202:7 1297:10 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [subject - susceptible] Page 78 1322:8 1361:18 1373:12 1374:24 1392:21 subjected 1362:17 1363:3 subjects 1211:19 subm ission 1208:2 1362:24 submissions 1105:21 1106:7 1426:20 subm it 1207:1 subm itted 1106:2 1107:10 1153:11 1153:17,19 su b m itting 1155:12 1206:7,23 1217:1 1224:11 subscribed 1431:21 subsequent 1131:15 1362:24 subsequently 1166:3 1195:8 1244:7 subsidiary 1058:6 1058:6 substance 1075:2 1118:6,7,12,14,21 1118:23 1280:24 substances 1118:5 1148:13 1416:4 successful 1352:25 successor 1059:8,9 1060:8,9 1061:7,8 1065:11,12,14 sue 1399:21 sued 1059:8 1060:8 1061:7 1065:10,12,13 1385:7 suffice 1166:20 sufficient 1194:9 1305:16 1338:12 1339:1,2 1396:3 sufficiently 1195:25 1261:12 1326:19 suggest 1093:16 1257:20 1405:19 suggested 1093:22 1109:19 1262:20 1361:7 suggesting 1106:10 suggestion 1094:1 1377:25 suggestions 1094:10 suitable 1202:7 suite 1062:4,9,14 1063:10,15 1064:8 1064:18 1065:8 sulphate 1200:11 1200:16,18 sum 1156:15 sum m arize 1152:7 1173:6 1183:23 1238:7 sum m arized 1092:6 1152:20 1183:6 1194:3,6 1234:24 1397:16 sum m arizes 1088:19 1105:25 1158:13 1201:12 1217:6 sum m arizing 1156:20 sum m ary 1164:7 1167:6 1170:20 1180:25 1183:17 1205:25 1211:14 1216:14 1221:5,8 1224:22 1229:10 1318:16 1393:3 1398:2 1408:23 1418:14 su n k 1110:21 su p erio r 1058:1 1059:1 1060:1 1061:1 1388:17 superm arkets 1143:5 supervised 1177:6 supervision 1158:9 supplem ent 1348:20 supplem ents 1147:3 supplied 1156:4 1246:18 1336:11 supplier 1122:11 1122:14,15 1124:2 1133:18 1151:22 1151:24 1167:25 1168:5,22 1244:13 1321:14 1392:9 suppliers 1132:11 1148:21 1195:22 1200:5 1244:4,10 supply 1151:22 1168:23 1181:8 1245:18 1252:14 1253:2 1267:13 1335:24 supplying 1107:7 1334:25 1335:19 1335:20 1336:13 1336:14 support 1196:25 1202:22 1207:9 1229:12 1261:14 1261:19 supposed 1305:23 1306:10 1388:7 supposition 1386:9 suppression 1284:19 1371:10 su p ra 1298:13 sure 1100:24 1102:21 1154:4 1197:4 1201:14 1205:6 1208:16 1209:16 1224:7 1247:1 1258:3,6 1274:21 1275:11 1306:1 1309:25 1320:1 1325:3 1335:25 1339:19 1344:8,17,17 1364:17 1366:21 1382:12 1410:23 1412:25 surety 1395:20 1396:13,14,18 surgeons 1068:17 1108:25 surgical 1068:15 1108:19,23 1109:1 su rp risin g 1219:6 1219:14,16 surveillance 1189:14,16 1194:16 1419:6 survey 1151:16 1340:11 surveyed 1399:15 surveys 1232:18 susceptible 1349:17 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [suspected - talc] Page 79 suspected 1371:2 suspicious 1165:25 1166:15 1397:18 sustained 1251:23 Sutcliffe 1063:19 swabs 1068:15 1109:1 sw orn 1431:21 symposia 1241:24 1389:21 1404:21 symposium 1357:23 1402:11 1407:22 synthetic 1072:20 system 1284:16,20 1310:2 1311:6,10 1345:20 1346:9 1347:1 1368:4 1371:10 system atically 1088:21 systems 1072:11 1095:22 1425:21 sz 1180:22 1288:21_________ _________ t ________ t 1415:12 table 1105:25 1119:12 1226:5 1291:7 tables 1257:4 tablets 1146:7,9 tab u lated 1419:3 tabulation 1224:25 1225:1 1413:4 tak e 1072:1 1077:14 1078:17 1082:5 1084:15 1086:24 1088:11 1090:13 1101:22 1108:6 1127:15 1142:18 1174:22 1180:20 1189:18 1203:12 1209:18 1216:6 1220:6 1223:22 1240:24 1252:16 1265:21 1280:12 1296:17 1297:13 1298:5 1299:12 1307:21 1310:23 1319:9 1325:6 1332:19,20 1340:17,19 1341:11 1342:11 1350:10 1357:19 1360:21 1369:22 1374:19 1378:16 1378:21 1379:20 1413:13 takeaw ay 1189:1 1213:1 taken 1058:15 1082:9 1088:23 1124:101127:5 1136:13 1158:15 1159:20 1171:12 1194:4,5 1196:13 1296:13,23,24,24 1381:10 1382:1 1429:4 1430:5 takes 1093:2 1112:8 1150:1,2 1283:11 talc 1064:15,20 1068:25 1069:2,6 1074:7,9 1077:6 1077:22,23 1078:3 1078:14 1079:13 1079:17 1080:10 1081:5,6,8,10 1082:20,25 1086:13,16 1088:14 1089:2,4 1089:15 1090:9 1091:15,23 1092:8 1092:20,24 1093:1 1093:2,6,7 1094:3 1094:7,23 1095:2 1095:5,14 1096:10 1097:3,24,25 1098:18 1099:1 1102:6,14,16,18 1103:3 1105:21 1106:1,7 1107:7 1109:20 1110:2,4 1110:7,12,14,18 1110:20,23 1111:2 1111:6,12,15,17 1111:20,22 1112:1 1112:9,17 1113:3 1113:4,11,16,18 1113:21,22,24 1114:1,16,17,18 1114:20 1115:5,7 1115:14,18,25 1116:2,4,14,16,19 1116:20,22 1117:3 1117:6,7,12,14,19 1117:21 1118:11 1118:20 1119:2,8 1119:25 1120:15 1120:22 1121:12 1123:3 1124:2,10 1124:11,12,13,15 1125:6,11,13 1126:3,6,7,16,19 1126:24 1127:2,5 1127:21 1128:2,8 1128:9,22,25 1129:5,7 1130:1,4 1130:6 1131:21,22 1131:25 1132:3,4 1132:5,9,16,17,18 1132:23,25 1133:9 1133:13,17 1135:11,13,15,20 1135:23,25,25 1136:10,11 1137:5 1137:8,13 1138:21 1139:2 1141:11,23 1143:11 1144:8,18 1145:13 1146:8,13 1146:14,15,17 1147:7,9,10,23 1148:5,7,10,21 1149:5,13,16,18 1150:15,24 1151:1 1151:5,14,17,18 1151:24 1152:5,21 1152:21 1153:21 1154:12,15 1156:4 1156:9,14 1157:5 1157:5,7 1158:17 1159:3,24 1161:2 1161:5 1162:3,7,9 1163:11 1165:3,7 1165:20,21 1166:13,15 1167:4 1167:8,16,19 1168:16,17 1169:15,15 1171:8 1171:15,20 1172:7 1172:11,20 1173:14,15,18,25 1176:6,11,12 1177:22 1178:6 1180:3,7,9,11 1181:3,8 1183:18 1185:12 1188:22 1191:17 1192:7,8 1192:10,10,11,16 1192:18,24 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [talc - talk] Page 80 1193:17,20,22 1194:1,8,18 1195:2,15,21,22 1196:2,3,8,15 1197:10,21 1198:1 1198:3 1199:22 1200:4,21,24 1201:2 1202:6,24 1202:25 1203:13 1203:19 1204:15 1205:11,20,21 1206:9,10,11,11 1206:23 1207:2,7 1207:10,12,15 1208:11,14,18,24 1209:6,10,24 1210:15,23 1211:4 1211:10,10,16 1212:9 1216:3 1217:2,18 1218:24 1218:24 1219:2,12 1220:16,18 1221:2 1224:16 1227:16 1228:14 1229:13 1230:19,24 1231:1 1231:14,18 1232:1 1232:3,4,13,19,23 1233:1,3,4,12,14 1234:12,22 1235:2 1235:3,15,15,25 1236:5,6,7,7 1237:12,15,20 1238:3,6,10,12 1239:9,21,24 1240:16 1241:19 1241:23,25 1244:5 1244:13 1245:4,12 1246:6,10,14,21 1247:6,14,15 1248:8,17 1249:7 1249:11,16,18 1250:4 1251:13,17 1252:3,8 1259:21 1259:25 1260:1,4 1260:10,19,21,22 1261:4,23 1262:3 1262:21,23 1263:15,24,25 1266:8,23 1267:18 1267:21,25 1268:18 1269:1,4 1269:6,10,13,23 1269:25 1271:6,21 1272:3,5,6 1273:2 1273:4,6,8,21 1274:14,18,20,24 1274:25 1279:8,10 1279:11,11,19 1280:2,3,4,21 1281:18 1284:4,9 1284:13 1289:5 1292:4,17 1293:14 1293:22 1294:3,11 1296:22 1297:4,18 1297:19,21 1301:14,20 1302:15,15,17 1303:2,4,11 1305:14,16 1307:21,25 1309:25 1310:2 1312:17 1313:9,16 1314:4,6,13 1317:6,8,23 1318:9 1319:4 1323:21 1326:1,3 1326:21,22 1327:2 1327:9,18,21 1336:5 1338:14,18 1339:2,7 1341:5 1341:10,19 1342:17 1343:8,10 1344:13 1345:2,11 1345:18,22 1346:18 1348:6,18 1349:14,18,23 1350:1,6 1355:4 1356:1,4,6,7,18,25 1357:14 1358:11 1359:4,5,8 1361:18 1362:6,11 1367:1,2,5,5,12,21 1368:2 1369:2,2 1369:18 1370:10 1371:22,25 1372:2 1372:3 1374:24 1375:8 1376:1,5,7 1376:8,15 1377:12 1380:10,15 1381:25 1382:9,15 1382:24,25 1383:10,17 1385:3 1385:7,22 1386:1 1386:4 1387:14,16 1387:20 1388:18 1388:25 1390:16 1390:17,19,19,22 1390:23 1391:1,4 1391:7,10,10,13 1391:18,25 1392:18 1395:8,13 1396:5,15 1397:3 1397:12 1398:11 1398:14 1402:20 1406:2,4,5,12,13 1406:17,18 1408:1 1408:9 1409:9 1410:13,17,19 1411:1,18,20,23 1412:1,11,12,15 1415:22 1416:7,13 1416:22 1417:3,21 1417:23 1418:5,15 1419:19,22 1420:5 1420:8,11,17 1421:11 1422:4,21 1423:5,8,18 1424:24 1425:6,19 1426:5,15,20 1427:13,18,23 1428:4,9,13 talcs 1098:15 1099:12 1100:23 1101:1 1116:24 1173:1,4 1181:5 1184:7 1195:23 1227:19 1288:7 1300:8,15,16 1309:5 1318:19 1340:15 1346:16 1358:21 1362:8 1399:19 1426:10 talcum 1151:10 1179:8 1186:16 1187:12,16,21,24 1357:1 1358:12,22 1362:3,12 1393:4 1423:5 talcum s 1296:2 1363:20 talk 1067:22 1068:11 1074:6 1079:21 1098:20 1100:24 1105:16 1112:14 1116:23 1126:20 1127:12 1131:4,18 1140:2 1141:24 1157:12 1167:15 1173:17 1174:20 1193:11 1199:7,9 1200:8 1201:17,25 1204:6 1204:17 1214:10 1216:1 1217:20,25 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [talk - test] Page 81 1218:5,11 1238:24 1238:24 1304:2 1333:24 1355:22 1357:10 1358:3 1372:15 1401:4 1410:7 talked 1074:16 1078:19 1085:2 1086:20 1090:14 1094:13,19 1095:16 1098:8,18 1100:8 1105:15 1113:24 1119:2 1121:15 1129:18 1130:16 1132:18 1136:20 1145:16 1149:3 1154:22 1157:11,15 1162:25 1163:2 1164:2 1167:14,14 1167:15 1173:6 1185:3 1196:10 1197:25 1198:12 1198:20 1199:2 1201:22 1203:2 1204:13 1206:13 1211:6 1212:15 1215:13 1240:3 1247:20 1259:17 1272:1 1296:3 1300:22 1319:8 1345:1,23,25 1348:24 1349:3 1365:11 1376:9 1387:11 1390:23 1413:6 talking 1068:5,10 1069:5 1086:9 1113:3 1115:11 1119:25 1126:1 1135:10 1137:23 1138:7,10 1142:24 1146:13 1154:11 1207:5 1211:24 1212:2 1213:24 1219:11,14 1263:1 1287:22,23 1289:7 1293:11 1335:15 1341:4,25 1351:22 1383:1 1385:15 1389:18 1390:5,24 1392:25 1395:13 1406:22 talks 1118:16 1159:9,10 1221:11 1297:16 1361:20 1394:9 1404:22 tangel 1424:16 tannoy 1086:5 task 1261:19 1313:8 tc 1102:1,2 teaching 1073:12 team 1072:19 1091:6 1201:9 1230:12 1236:15 team 's 1200:14 technical 1144:13 1201:13 technically 1209:8 technique 1093:21 1093:24 1165:16 1176:1,8 1352:25 techniques 1083:14 1091:25 1094:6,21 1098:18 1099:2 1120:3 1128:3,5 1137:21 1152:16 1177:9 1282:3,6 1348:19 1348:20 1375:22 technologically 1273:10 technology 1137:10 1138:24 1143:9 1191:13 1288:8 telephone 1058:7 1063:2 1064:2 1065:2,23 1299:2 1422:10 tell 1069:10 1074:20 1075:7 1078:16 1080:2 1089:11 1094:3 1095:23 1101:7,23 1102:9 1105:4 1107:16 1118:3,10 1133:4 1140:24 1161:16 1175:23 1177:16 1180:10 1192:5 1205:2 1220:6 1222:25 1223:15 1242:3,6 1242:7 1275:9 1279:7 1305:6 1332:13 1345:21 1346:17 1359:5 1361:6 1365:16 1366:10 1389:18 1390:18 1393:9,17 1395:11 1397:10 1412:6,10,17 1413:1 telling 1184:24,25 1277:15 1278:9 1298:4 1327:17 1369:17 tells 1355:20 1371:15 tem 1150:8 1271:11,14 1281:3 1309:6,16,17 1310:21 1312:2,10 1313:21 1319:9,11 1322:1,19 1330:11 1347:3 1350:23 1426:16 tem perature 1281:22 1282:15 ten 1071:6,12 1142:18 1188:10 1191:22 1192:3 1266:18 1321:1 1337:12 1373:21 1373:21 1418:22 tend 1071:10 tended 1112:22 tender 1109:22 tends 1073:18 tennis 1114:19,21 1136:1 tenovus 1217:1 ten u re 1244:7 term 1068:9 1108:22 1118:7 1123:11 1293:2 1345:19 1392:5 term ed 1243:11 term in o lo g y 1112:4 1243:13 term s 1112:11 1113:10,25 1137:23 1138:15 1143:20 1149:14 1152:11 1203:23 1217:20 1266:15 1268:20 1339:21 test 1096:12 1119:24 1131:20 1136:22 1137:3 1141:15 1143:13 1145:11 1148:24 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [test - thoroughly] Page 82 1149:14,20,23 1150:3 1152:13 1175:5 1176:17 1211:19 1281:15 1287:13 1296:10 1305:9,23 1309:6 1309:6 1310:2 1313:17,18 1314:6 1315:11 1320:16 1321:11,19,20,23 1321:25,25 1322:1 1322:4,8,11,14 1332:23 1377:20 1377:23 1379:14 1395:8,19,19,19 1395:19,22,23 1396:2,8 1406:2 tested 1141:12,15 1149:19 1175:1,6 1181:5 1281:19 1294:23 1295:1,6 1295:6 1309:25 1322:3 1374:2 1379:4,9,11 1392:7 testified 1244:3 testim ony 1219:18 1244:11 1245:23 1429:4 1430:4,9 testing 1083:17 1094:25 1126:15 1131:5,15,24 1132:8 1134:17,20 1137:8,13 1138:9 1139:23 1140:5 1141:13,17 1148:19 1149:22 1150:4,6,7,13,14 1151:20,23 1153:17 1154:18 1157:13 1158:24 1163:17 1164:2 1166:9 1167:16,18 1167:19 1168:12 1168:15 1170:22 1170:22,24 1171:7 1173:7,9 1175:7 1175:15 1179:23 1182:17 1185:23 1186:1 1194:22 1196:10 1237:23 1275:17 1293:13 1305:2,4,6,7,8 1306:11 1312:17 1351:8 1356:17 1370:19 1373:22 1375:22 1376:13 1376:14,18 1378:5 1378:7,8,9,11,23 1383:9 1395:7,7 1398:4 1416:17,18 1422:3 1425:18 tests 1141:4 1145:4 1149:24 1198:9 1267:25 1286:9 1313:10 1336:11 1350:8 1379:1 teuscher 1060:3,4 1064:25 1065:6 1431:3 texas 1062:5,10,15 text 1390:15 texture 1113:25 textures 1088:25 thackston 1063:9 th a n k 1075:24 1080:11 1106:14 1138:2 1157:20 1181:15 1197:18 1225:17 1227:13 1242:20 1250:9,10 1250:23 1277:7,12 1278:25 1298:10 1299:22,24 1325:2 1345:16 1351:13 1354:24,24 1366:13 1374:22 1389:4,5 1402:16 thanks 1267:14 theaters 1068:16 theoretical 1379:22 theory 1378:10,13 thereabouts 1175:3 1341:22 th ereo f 1429:6 therm al 1184:14 1281:22 1282:15 1370:12 thesis 1073:9 thick 1088:18 1099:17 1197:4 thickness 1277:5 thin 1203:6 1307:23 thing 1107:14 1193:25 1217:10 1217:10,11 1219:21 1249:1,25 1263:1 1298:2,12 1298:13 1309:21 1309:22 1344:6 1387:11 1388:6,14 things 1083:16 1094:10 1108:13 1108:23 1109:12 1142:13 1146:6 1187:20 1196:17 1198:20 1199:5 1201:5,13 1251:19 1324:18 1325:6 1327:6 1336:23 1337:1 1339:15 1355:13 1363:17 1381:14 th in k 1093:12 1101:6 1106:16 1119:21 1128:24 1138:11 1143:23 1147:13 1161:24 1161:25 1167:11 1172:14 1175:2 1179:18 1180:4,18 1185:22 1190:1 1191:20 1192:17 1198:6 1204:5 1205:25 1213:1 1240:1,9 1242:3 1243:20 1246:9 1270:25 1271:3 1275:14 1283:10 1285:3,11 1289:24 1304:17 1305:24 1310:14,15,15 1315:6 1319:7,23 1321:7 1324:20 1330:11 1342:24 1347:25 1372:22 1373:9 1374:6 1377:25 1378:2,15 1387:24 th in k s 1222:9 th ird 1092:12 1097:14 1099:3 1166:9 1180:21 1215:14 1325:11 1388:2 1397:10 th irty 1082:21 thom as 1361:16 th o ro u g h 1208:6 1369:4 thoroughly 1208:4 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [thought - toxicologists] Page 83 tho u g h t 1110:1 1156:24 1172:1 1175:10 1176:2,7 1184:25 1187:11 thousand 1343:22 1381:21 1394:21 thousands 1130:24 thousandth 1282:24 threatening 1204:3 th ree 1066:10 1073:8 1074:12 1086:12 1092:21 1097:22 1125:1 1200:20 1202:5,9 1221:15,17 1223:1 1239:3,4,4,6 1248:24 1293:10 1298:7 1301:24 1311:21 1326:12 1329:15,23 1330:7 1344:15 1358:20 1378:25 1384:16 1404:16 1416:9 th ro w 1240:7 ticked 1170:12 tim e 1066:4 1067:11 1069:13 1077:7 1079:14 1086:12 1106:8 1107:4 1108:16 1110:23 1111:3,4 1111:14 1112:8 1119:4 1122:9 1124:8 1134:9 1135:19 1163:9 1172:19,24 1173:7 1183:14 1189:17 1189:17 1221:19 1221:19,20 1230:9 1233:7,25 1240:4 1243:17,20 1244:7 1246:9,18 1255:7 1264:12 1266:16 1278:15 1287:22 1290:9 1295:1 1298:22 1300:1,21 1305:1 1307:12 1308:11,12 1324:10 1325:4,4 1337:19 1340:6 1346:15 1355:2 1362:20 1365:10 1365:10 1366:22 1371:20,20 1374:19 1380:1,9 1380:22 1382:10 1383:13,23 1389:4 1391:2 1394:16,19 1396:8 1398:4,19 tim es 1110:15 1130:15 1143:16 1186:21 1188:8,15 1208:1 1212:5 1232:8 1243:2 1272:2 1275:7,9 1291:4 1300:23,25 1306:7,22 1307:2 1307:6,8 1308:6 1337:25 1338:5 1353:13,13 1391:6 1395:18,23,24 1396:10 1398:20 1410:16 1418:21 tin a 1058:3 tins 1110:2 tinto 1153:12 1375:9 tiny 1136:5 1319:15 tip 1307:21 tires 1116:8 tissues 1217:2 title 1080:5 1087:6 1113:2 1234:10 1346:17,18 1362:10 1402:21 titled 1098:14 titles 1362:9 today 1066:4 1092:9 1138:22 1211:25 1212:4 1233:9,9 1239:20 1254:20 1260:20 1266:6 1296:15 1297:2 1299:19 1368:17 1369:10 1371:12 1373:20 1376:9,10 1383:2 1390:24 toiletries 1070:2 toiletry 1143:3 1195:25 1326:19 told 1104:22 1218:20 1240:5 1270:3 1271:2 1273:16 1387:15 tom aino 1375:10 ton 1249:11 1379:3,8,10 tonight 1399:3 tonnage 1080:19 1252:13 tonnages 1248:10 tons 1081:4,4 1249:10,23 1252:2 1252:5,16,22 1379:15 tool 1309:1 tools 1416:16 toothpaste 1359:19 top 1092:16 1136:11,12 1222:10 1256:2 1294:19 1317:3 1330:11 1346:5 1353:23 1354:12 topic 1069:3 1076:13 1151:4 1191:15 1227:8 1380:23 1382:6,8 1383:21 topical 1382:9 topics 1074:7 1211:3 1384:2 to tal 1071:4 1156:15 1211:14 1266:16 1340:20 1381:22 1385:2,6 totality 1074:24 1075:8 totally 1175:14 1180:8 1203:24 1339:22 1391:14 tow 1095:19 tow er 1062:14 toxic 1120:10 toxicological 1070:24 1259:18 toxicologist 1066:22 1067:23 1068:1,24 1070:6 1072:3,7 1074:23 1079:4 1096:20 1233:24 1384:3 toxicologist's 1068:8 toxicologists 1074:2 1197:24 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [toxicology - two] Page 84 toxicology 1066:18 1067:3,15 1069:18 1071:15 1071:17,23 1073:4 1073:24 1206:14 1206:17 1211:8,15 trace 1119:8 1182:12 1187:10 1283:7,9,9 1370:20 traces 1276:4 1283:17 1369:3 trach ea 1223:7 1226:2,10 traditionally 1233:6 1317:11 training 1141:20 1142:10 transcribed 1430:7 tran scrip t 1413:24 1413:25 1430:5,8 transcription 1429:6 tran slate 1218:4 tra n slated 1218:2 tran slates 1153:8 tra n slatio n 1218:1 transm ission 1083:23 1097:23 1101:10 1137:22 1139:5,10,15 1140:7,13 1141:10 1142:14 1150:2 1152:17 1153:2,6 1153:25 1165:15 1281:4 1292:21 1310:8,11 tra n sm itta l 1102:8 1220:21 transm itted 1382:2 travis 1062:14 treated 1116:15 trem olite 1099:11 1099:12,23 1100:2 1158:15 1176:5 1181:10,12 1182:1 1182:12,24,25 1183:1 1190:4 1191:23 1196:5 1263:5,6 1266:24 1267:1,3,12 1268:14 1269:2,11 1272:8,9 1273:9 1273:18 1274:1,13 1274:18 1278:13 1279:8,8,16,20,22 1279:24 1280:8,8 1282:23 1283:6,7 1283:9,14,16,18 1283:21,21,22 1284:4,6,12,14 1323:19,22 1324:4 1324:5 1326:24 1327:24 1328:9,17 1349:16 1350:2 1351:2,15,20 1352:2,3,7,12 1353:1,5,7,23 1354:2,13,16 1358:19 1359:8 1360:8,12,15 1364:13 1365:2,3 1368:7,19,25 1369:3,5,7,13 1370:21,25 1371:1 1371:2 1393:13,14 1393:16,18,22,23 1406:1,24,24 1410:2,5 1412:17 trem olitic 1269:23 tre n d 1388:18 tria l 1095:22 1425:22 trials 1198:8 trie d 1227:5 trigger 1304:8 trip 1424:17 tru e 1245:11 1259:15 1316:3,13 1327:19,20 1331:22 1336:21 1363:17 1390:5 1400:7 1429:5 1430:8 tru s t 1296:18 tru th 1373:4 1378:4 try 1075:15 1085:17 1114:25 1120:11 1131:11 1143:18 1154:7 1171:4,5 1176:9 1213:20 1228:6 1278:23 trying 1186:19 1238:7 1257:20 1284:17 1349:11 1395:16 tu b 1384:22 tuberculosis 1236:2,9 tu c k e r 1062:8 tuckerellis.com 1062:11 tu rin 1091:15,20 1222:10 1428:6 tu rn 1077:18 1081:24 1084:24 1088:6 1114:22 1115:3,10 1161:19 1173:16 1180:20 1181:22 1182:5 1218:13 1221:3 1223:13 1224:17 1256:15 1294:2 1315:8 1317:2 1327:8 1331:16 1342:21 1354:10 1358:3,4 tu rn ed 1244:20 1290:24 turn in g 1153:15 1195:17 tw enty 1331:7 1358:10 twice 1409:1 two 1083:16 1091:17 1103:22 1103:25 1115:17 1120:8,10 1127:9 1131:17 1141:4,15 1141:16 1149:21 1152:16 1153:19 1158:4 1165:25 1169:7 1175:2 1176:5 1179:11 1181:25 1185:19 1186:14 1188:20 1191:13 1211:2,3 1211: 11,12 1215:20 1218:23 1226:19 1230:12 1234:24 1253:13 1266:21 1270:12 1270:13,13 1275:2 1275:2 1281:16 1284:3 1287:8,8,9 1287:10 1296:21 1299:5 1300:19,23 1300:25 1302:2 1305:14,19 1310:5 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [two - use] Page 85 1310:8,20 1312:19 1314:20 1321:25 1323:16 1327:15 1328:18 1339:15 1339:21 1344:15 1350:4 1353:3,22 1358:24 1362:13 1368:13 1392:10 1392:11 1396:25 1397:18 1404:16 1407:25 1408:22 type 1079:7 1083:17 1099:9 1111:20 1127:21 1135:4 1144:13 1158:23 1179:2 1265:22 1267:1 1305:2,7 1330:24 1332:2 types 1072:20 1073:6 1113:18 1125:1,7 1138:8 1155:14 1160:1 1161:3 1189:19 1205:13 1223:11 1227:3 1351:21 1353:3 1416:9 typical 1306:14 1316:8 1391:16 typically 1070:20 1119:7 1266:17 1323:25_________ u u 1123:12 u k 1067:5,7,8,13 1067:18 1068:14 1071:12 1091:9 1204:15 1374:10 1380:15,21 1381:3 1381:6,6,8,14,17 1382:2,4 1427:13 ultim ate 1088:12 1329:25 1347:11 1394:17 ultim ately 1080:25 1152:18 1182:7 1186:10,23 1259:20 1261:24 1266:23 unacceptable 1203:24 unaffiliated 1167:5 unanticipated 1287:25 unassailable 1216:19 1217:9 unbeneficiated 1097:24 uncom m on 1198:4 uncontam inated 1188:18 u n d ated 1345:7 undergoes 1082:18 1271:21 1367:5,12 underground 1113:5 underlined 1323:18 underscores 1314:19 1317:5 understand 1066:20 1070:9 1071:15 1072:7 1077:3 1079:10,11 1087:10 1108:16 1139:12 1142:8 1145:6 1158:2 1174:25 1188:2 1193:9 1197:8 1214:24 1243:5,17 1251:3 1366:14 understanding 1074:3 1087:16 1100:14 1108:12 1111:6 1130:21 1134:10 1142:7 1145:3 1156:15 1160:21 1194:22 1205:3 1215:17 1218:9 1243:8 1252:9 1283:16 1335:7 1394:25 1395:2 1396:19 1409:8 understands 1271:25 understood 1112:4 1204:9,21 undertaken 1171:17 1199:25 1207:20 undesirable 1305:14 unexpected 1219:9,19,22 unfortunate 1371:19 unilever 1063:17 1143:6 unilevers 1071:9 united 1058:17 1063:17 1067:9,20 1069:6 1112:23 1117:161118:8 1129:13 1130:5 1143:3 1146:16 1147:17 1171:13 1173:25 1193:11 1206:15 1232:11 1232:14 1310:1 universities 1087:20 university 1066:17,19 1083:11 1087:7,10 1087:11,15 1088:2 1091:8 1128:14 1156:2 1157:23,23 1161:11 1178:20 1198:23 1199:18 1200:7 1222:10 1428:6 unknow n 1315:17 1355:7 1376:15 1391:25 unnecessary 1240:21 u n p leasan t 1120:9 1126:12 unpublished 1406:23 u n re a d 1414:1 unreasonable 1090:10 unsafe 1386:1 unsolicited 1391:14 untow ard 1212:24 unusual 1283:17 1337:8 1404:24 unw anted 1112:12 1120:12 1126:8 1132:21 1135:4 u p d ate 1230:23 1231:6 1381:7 1404:10 1420:7 upfro n t 1074:14 usage 1113:25 1288:23 use 1068:17 1070:8 1074:8 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [use - virtually] Page 86 1077:5 1082:25 1108:25 1111:17 1112:16 1116:7 1117:9,19 1118:12 1119:1,2,18,19 1128:20 1129:22 1131:1 1132:19 1140:11,14 1141:20 1142:8,16 1143:8,14,18 1148:21 1149:11 1163:17 1182:10 1198:2 1206:11 1238:21 1239:9,25 1242:8 1244:5,14 1246:6,14 1247:14 1248:3,7 1249:15 1261:4 1263:25 1284:22 1290:20 1303:2,4 1307:2 1310:16 1328:22 1335:3 1339:12 1351:10 1371:24 1373:15 1379:25 1383:15 1384:12 1386:22 1387:20 1388:25,25 1391:21 1392:2,5 1393:18 1396:16 1399:2 useable 1220:19 useful 1089:1 user 1239:2 users 1238:6,20 1240:25 1241:13 1385:3,7 1389:13 1399:13,15 uses 1095:11 1115:25 1116:18 1123:11 1133:21 1140:15 1149:4 1150:2 1248:9 1302:25 1383:17 usp 1146:22,24 1147:8,16,21 1148:3,6,7,9 1149:13,19,23 1150:7 1309:22,24 1310:6,10,11 1311:6 1312:10,17 1313:9,16 1314:6 1314:11 1318:9,11 1416:20,20,22 1422:14 usp 's 1147:16,20 v v 1431:3 vacuum 1205:9 val 1078:7,10,12 1110:10,12 1130:19 1224:16 1226:22 1227:3 1230:11,20 1231:15 1387:13 1420:12 valid 1185:2 1193:14,15 1205:22 1208:13 1210:8 1240:17,22 1335:11 validated 1111:14 1376:17,18 validation 1247:18 validity 1290:23 valley 1078:12 1110:10,12 value 1085:13 1247:8 1315:12 1378:16,21 1379:21 van 1312:25 1375:8 variability 1079:2 variable 1358:14 variance 1179:13 1199:23,24 1328:13 varieties 1113:18 variety 1074:7 1201:6 1376:15 various 1078:7 1091:25 1106:1 1118:19 1121:10 1126:21 1137:10 1163:1 1169:17 1181:3 1318:19 1400:5 1412:4 v ary 1184:21 1233:5 vast 1393:23 veins 1184:9 1345:20 vendor 1169:14 ventilation 1233:10 veracity 1219:18 1336:1 1338:2,6 verbatim 1430:9 verdolotti 1061:3 1431:3 verify 1273:12 1274:9 veritext 1431:1 v erm icu lite 1317:16 Vermont 1076:14 1076:16,17 1080:10 1097:12 1111:16 1112:7,16 1128:12,14 1129:12,13,19,25 1130:17,19,22 1133:18 1160:17 1160:19,22 1161:13,19 1163:3 1163:5 1168:17 1169:3 1170:7 1232:18,19,23 1233:1 1245:25 1246:4 1267:18,21 1284:1,4,8 1367:3 1383:10 1412:8 1417:12 vernon 1106:25 version 1122:20 1125:6 1143:2 1222:16,17 1224:21 1225:2,20 1227:6,7 1253:8 1390:1,2 1400:12 1400:18,20 1401:18 1402:17 1402:19,23,25 1403:1,6,7,25 1404:5,17 1405:14 1405:16 1414:2 versus 1072:4 1083:21 1224:22 1300:22 1301:1 1369:13 victory 1262:19 1421:7 video 1058:10 videographer 1065:24 1066:2 1114:23,25 view 1115:14 1125:11 1205:23 1239:14,16 1307:10,11 1377:21 1392:16 virais 1146:2 virtually 1310:5 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - 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A Veritext Company 718-983-1234 [went - works] Page 88 1269:18 1270:7,19 1308:19 1384:25 w ergeland 1235:16,18 1236:16 1419:16 1419:21 west 1064:8 w hatsoever 1389:15 w hi 1100:15 whichever 1405:11 w hite 1117:1 1121:23 1146:7,9 1391:20 whiteness 1117:23 1132:20 1268:20 w hittaker 1059:10 1060:10 1061:9 1062:17 1174:16 1242:25 1243:5 1244:12,16 1245:3 1245:12,18 1246:20 1247:14 1248:18,22 1249:6 1250:3 1251:1,4,9 1252:23 1253:1 w ho've 1142:16 1238:11 w hoever's 1131:8 wi 1107:12 wide 1376:14 widely 1149:6 w idth 1307:14 1331:2 1332:3,14 wife 1239:4 wild 1234:18 w illiam 1366:6 wilson 1191:14 w inchite 1318:5 Windsor 1076:20 1076:22 1080:6 1094:23 1095:1,6 1095:14,22 1097:2 1097:12 1100:19 1101:11 1102:6,17 1105:20 1106:7,24 1107:3,5,7,11,23 1111:21 1132:23 1133:9,13 1134:18 1162:20,21 1164:15,17,20 1165:1,3,10,14,20 1166:22 1167:4,8 1169:15 1232:16 1293:14 1334:5 1340:16 1348:12 1397:12 1411:16 1411:23 1412:7 1413:7,8,8 1416:13 1417:16 1417:17,20 1422:3 1425:18,22 1426:19 1427:3 W indsor's 1166:23 1293:22 wish 1178:23 1265:17 w ished 1210:7 wishes 1362:19 w ithdraw 1362:20 1363:24 w ithdraw al 1362:15,23 1394:10,18,23 w ithdraw n 1362:13 1364:1 1395:1 1407:10 w ithheld 1335:13 1336:20 witness 1075:23 1077:13 1080:1 1081:25 1082:9 1084:14 1086:22 1090:15 1094:15 1095:19 1097:6 1098:10 1100:13 1105:10 1106:13 1106:20 1140:1 1199:15 1204:16 1214:1 1216:5 1217:14 1222:14 1223:23 1242:17 1242:20 1377:7 1389:5 1411:11 1413:24 1415:3 1430:4 1431:4 wm i 1100:10,16 1100:17,19 1300:8 1415:16,20 1426:4 1426:14 w onder 1252:14 w ord 1114:7 1123:10 1127:14 1132:19 1133:21 1133:25 1134:14 1134:15 1260:3 1279:15 1291:23 1295:18 1298:5 1322:4 1324:7 1335:3 1341:11 1351:10 1363:19 1373:15,17 1383:15,16 1392:2 1393:18 1413:13 w ording 1134:8 w ords 1084:2 1114:3,4 1217:9 1337:7 1373:2,5,6 1410:20,22,23,25 1411:6,7 w ork 1066:22 1067:3 1069:19,22 1071:16,19,20 1072:14 1073:16 1073:18,20 1080:8 1093:23 1094:2 1126:13 1129:15 1139:9 1142:12 1163:2 1174:1 1176:23 1177:3 1183:21 1185:18 1189:2 1190:17 1192:12 1204:15 1204:19,25 1205:5 1210:20 1231:23 1233:8,21 1238:2 1238:3 1249:4 1266:15 1281:17 1290:14 1318:23 1319:3 1372:20 1373:2,7,16 1427:13 w orked 1067:3,12 1072:17 1185:10 1229:3 1230:10 1238:15 w orker 1216:18 w orkers 1230:10 1231:1 1232:22 1234:12,23 1236:5 1236:19,20,23,25 1419:18,22 1420:5 w orkforce 1227:3 w orking 1079:14 1217:7 1231:21 1232:25 1233:3,11 1280:19 w orks 1071:22 1249:23 1312:22 1376:24 Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. - 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