Document 2q9BYV2dqNYqVqvKYMy602Xga

FILE NAME: CertainTeed (CERT) DATE: 1980 DOC#: CERT055 DOCUM ENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition of Leon Horow itz 2 1 Appearances: 2 For the P la in tif fs : 3 HAMBURG RUBIN MULLIN & MAXWELL BY: EDWARD RUBIN, ESQ. . 4 For the Defendant Turner & Newall, Ltd: 5 , JOHN P. MASON, ESQ. 6 For the Defendant CertainTeed Corporation: 7 SWARTZ CAMPBELL & DETWEILER 8 BY: G. DANIEL BRUCH, J R . , ESQ. 9 CURTIS M. PONTZ, ESQ. 10 * 11 12 13 14 15 z 16 LaBRUM & DOAK BY: JAMES D. HILLY, ESQ. For the Defendant Cassiar Asbestos Corp., Ltd: SHEA & GARDNER BY: DAVID BOOTH BEERS, ESQ., ELIZABETH S. GIBSON, ESQ. For the Defendant Lake Asbestos of Quebec, Ltd: PORZIO & BROMBERG BY: MYRON J . BROMBERG, ESQ. 17 For the Defendant Johns-Manville: 18 19 20 21 * 22 MARSHALL DENNEHEY & WARNER BY: THOMAS C. DELORENZO, ESQ., ANNE M. KENNEY, ESQ. For the Defendant Asbestos Corporation, Ltd: OMINSKY JOSEPH & WELSH BY: EDWARD B. JOSEPH, ESQ. 23 % Of f ic ia l Reporter CoMPANiCastieman.CERT00i i 2 i 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 f!l' 3 1 Appearances: (Cont'd) 2 F o r th e D efendant GAF: 3 r . 4 5 6 MESIROV GELMAN JAFFE & CRAMER BY: EDWARD GREER, ESQ. For the Defendant Southern Asbestos: WHITE & WILLIAMS BY: ANDREA L. BOWMAN, ESQ. 7 For the Defendant B ell Asbestos Mines, Ltd: 8 POST & SCHELL BY: F . JAMES GALLO, ESQ. 9 For the Defendant Turner & Newall, Ltd: 10 SULLIVAN & CROMWELL 11 BY: RICHARD J . RAWSON, ESQ. 12 For the Defendant Carey Canadian Mines, Ltd: 13 HARVEY PENNINGTON BY: JOEL D. GUSKY, ESQ. 14 For the Defendant United S tates of America: 15 WILLIAM R. HERMAN, ESQ. 16 C i v i l D i v i s i o n , U. S. Department of J u s t i c e 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 % Offic ia l Reporter Com pany ,, 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman .CERT001122 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 4 1 INDEX 2 3 "DEPONENT 4 Leon David Horowitz 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 EXAMINATION BY Mr. B eers Mr. Herman Mr. G allo Mr. Bromberg Mr. B eers - Mr. Rubin Mr. H illy Mr. Bruch Mr. H illy Mr. Pontz PAGE 5 119 125 138 172 176 226 235 241 242 14 4. 15 16 Ms. Gibson 242 Mr. Bromberg 243 Mr. Bruch 244 17 Mr. G allo 245 18 19 HOROWITZ DEPOSITION EXHIBITS 20 1 through 25 - 21 mr26,,- PAGE 5 172 22 23 (E xhibits attached to court origin al) Of f ic ia l Repo rter CoMPAhCastieman.CERT001123 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 5 1 (Horowitz D eposition E xh ib its Nos. 2 1 through 25 were m arked.) 3 LEON DAVID HOROWITZ 4 having been duly sworn by the N otary-R ep orter, was examined 5 and t e s t i f i e d a s fo llo w s : 6 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT CASSIAR 7 BY MR. BEERS: 8 Q What i s your f u l l name, Mr. Horowitz? 9 MR. MASON: The usual s t ip u la t io n s ? 10 MR. BEERS: Y es. They are in the F ederal R u les, 11 Mr. Mason. 12 A Leon David H orow itz. 13 Q. Where do you liv e ? 14 A I l i v e in B u rlin g to n , M a ssa ch u setts, 78 Macon % 15 Road, B u rlin gton , M assachusetts 01803. 16 , Q, Where do you work? 17 A I work w ith American Mutual L ia b ilit y Insurance 18 Company, in W ak efield , M a ssa ch u setts. 19 Q How old a re you? 20 A I am 62 y ea r s o ld . 21 * Q What i s your p o s itio n a t the in su ra n ce company? 22 A I am C h i e f o f the I n d u s t r i a l Hygiene S e c t io n of 23 the company. % OF UAL Reporter COMPANCastleman.CERT001124 12401 Palermo Drive ILVER SPR'NG . MD. 20904 6 1 Q How lo n g have you h eld t h a t p o s i t i o n ? 2 A Twelve y ea rs. 3 *r Q Can you j u s t g e n e r a l l y t e l l us what your d u t i e s 4 are there? 5 A My d u t i e s a r e to t r a i n and a d v i s e and be 6 a v a i l a b l e f o r c o n s u l t a t i o n on i n d u s t r i a l hygie ne m a t t e r s f o r 7 the company. 8 Q, Where were you born and b r o u g h t up? 9 A I was born i n New York C i t y . U n t i l the age of 10 40 I l i v e d i n New York C i t y . 11 Q Did you go to high school th e re ? 12 A Yes, I went to h ig h s c h o o l i n Brooklyn, New York, 13 Q Did you go to college? 14 * 15 16 A Yes, I went t o C i t y C o l le g e o f New York. Q When d i d you g r a d u a t e ? A I graduated as aBachelor of Chemical Engineering 17 Q When? 18 A 1942. 19 Q Have you done anyg r a d u a t e work? 20 . A I went to the U niversity of Colorado, but I did 21 ^ n o t g e t a d e g r e e . I went one s e m e s t e r . 22 Q What d i d you do a f t e r g e t t i n g out of c o l l e g e ? 23 A I went t o war, World War I I , and then a f t e r 0 F F 'CIA,12L40'1i E,,PFa?leRrmToEDn riCveoMPAr^astleman.CERT001125 SILVER SPRING. WD. 20904 7 1 World War I I , I g o t a job in th e D i v i s i o n of I n d u s t r i a l 2 Hygiene f o r th e New York S t a t e Department of L abor. 3 * Q What y e a r was t h a t ? 4' A That was 19^7* 5 Q What was your t i t l e a t t h a t time? 6 A I s ta r te d as an I n d u s tr ia l Hygienist and ended 7 as a Senior Industrial Hygienist. 8 Q When d id you end? 9 A In 1956. 10 Q What were y our d u t i e s t h e r e , i n th e S t a t e o f New 11 Y o rk ? 12 A My d u t i e s were examiningi n d u s t r i a l e x h a u s t 13 systems f o r the c o n tro l of to x ic gases and fumes fo r a l l of 14 i n d u s t r y i n New York S t a t e , a s w e l l a s s u r v e y in g i n d u s t r y 15 * i n New York S t a t e f o r exposure t o i n d u s t r i a l t o x i c d u s t , 16 gases and fumes. 17 Q What kin d o f t o x i c d u s t , g a s e s and fumes did 18 your job deal with? 19 A A ll d u s ts , gases and fumes th a t were considered 20 toxic at the time. 21 Q Did. your work embrace a s b e s to s ? 22 A Yes, i t did. 23 Q Can you t e l l us how and t o what e x t e n t ? . Offic ia l Reporter company * 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001126 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 TV! 8 1 A Not too much. I v i s i t e d one s h i p y a r d , Todd 2 S h ip y a r d i n B rooklyn. I d o n ' t r e c a l l why I was t h e r e , 3 ^probably to survey -- not r e a lly survey, to see an exposure 4 where a c o n t r a c t o r was making I n s u l a t i o n f o r p u r p o s e s of 5 use on a s h i p . But t h i s was n o t on th e s h i p , i t was o u ts i d e 6 the ship. 7 Then I a l s o went to an a s b e s t o s glove 8 m a n u f a c t u r e r i n u p s t a t e New York, I b e l i e v e Amsterdam. I 9 d o n 't r e c a ll where. 10 Q What d id you do a t the glove m a n u f a c tu r e r ? 11 * A S p e c i f i c a l l y , I d o n 't r e c a l l . I would evaluate 12 what I c o n s i d e r e d was th e e x p o s u r e , which could have meant 13 taking samples, but I don't recall taking samples. 14 Q When you say e v a l u a t e th e e x p o s u r e , what were 4 15 ' y o u m e a s u r i n g i t a g a i n s t ? ' 16 A B a s i c a l l y , my e x p e r i e n c e a s t o what i s an 17 exposure, which basically related to time of exposure to the 18 d u s t, a s w e ll a s c o n c e n tr a tio n , e i t h e r v i s u a l l y or by 19 measurement. Again, I probably measured i t , but I don't 20 recall. 21 ** Q Was t h e r e a measurement s t a n d a r d i n e f f e c t a t 22 that plant? 23 A Yes, there was. _ Offic ia l Reporter Company * 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001127 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 T . l S7 9 1 Q Do you remember what i t was? 2 A I t was th e Midget Impinger Method, which was a 3 % normal d u s t c o u n t method f o r a l l t o x i c d u s t l i k e s i l i c a and 4 so on. 5 Q Was t h e r e a p r e s c r i b e d l e v e l of a s b e s t o s i n the 6 ambient a i r t h a t was p re s c rib e d f o r t h a t p la n t? 7 A Yes, there was, for th at -- 8 Q Type of p l a n t ? 9 A For th at type of exposure, not for the plant. 10 Q And what was t h a t p r e s c r i b e d l e v e l ? 11 A Five m illion p articles per cubic foot of a ir. 12 MR. BROMBERG: Mr. H orowitz, you a r e s t a r t i n g 13 t o answer b e f o r e he f i n i s h e s h i s q u e s t i o n s . I t makes i t very 14 d if f ic u lt for the Reporter. 15' * THE WITNESS: I 'm s o r r y . 16 Q I c a l l e d I t a p r e s c r i b e d l e v e l . Was i t a 17 standard th a t the p la n t had to meet? 18 A I t was a l e v e l consid ered or ad v ise d by the 19 American Conference of Governmental & In d u s tria l Hygienists 20 t o be an exposure below which i t was consid ered s a fe f o r a t 21 ^ l e a s t 80 p e r c e n t o f p e o p l e exposed t o t h a t l e v e l . 22 Q Had you been le d t o b e l i e v e t h a t ex p o s u re s to 23 a s b e s t o s d u s t above t h a t s ta n d ard might be harmful to h e a lth ? O f f ic ia l R ep o r ter Co m p a n y xl 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001128 VER SPRING. MD. 20904 T -l 70 10 1 MR. RUBIN: O b je c tio n a s t o form. 2 MR. BEERS: Off the r e c o r d . 3 * (Discussion off the record*) 4 A Would you a s k the q u e s t i o n a g a i n ? 5 Q, Yes. P rio r to the time th a t you v is ite d that 6 a s b e sto s glove p la n t, had you been led to b eliev e th a t 7 exposures to a s b e s to s above the standard th a t you ju s t 8 d e s c r i b e d m ig h t be harm ful to human h e a l t h ? 9 MR. RUBIN: O b je c tio n a s to form. 10 , A I can answer now? 11 * MR. BROMBERG: What i s t h e o b j e c t i o n a s to form? 12 MR. RUBIN: I b e l i e v e I t i s a g r o s s l y l e a d i n g 13 question. 14 4 15' ' Q All rig h t. A We were t a u g h t and our u n d e r s t a n d i n g was to 16 in te rp ret the li3 t of threshold lim it values in general, 17 not a s b e s t o s s p e c i f i c a l l y or any s p e c i f i c a l l y . In g e n e ra l, 18 those values were guidelines to those of us in the industry 19 to aim f o r th a t le v e l f o r a safe v a lu e . In o th e r words, 20 when you d e s i g n e d an e x h a u s t system you would t r y to g e t i t 21 below t h a t l e v e l , i n g e n e r a l . So i t was a g u i d e . I t was 22 not an absolute figure. 23 Q . What was the r o l e of your s t a t e agency in Offic ia l Reporter Company ^ 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001129 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 TeL 572-4324 11 1 v is itin g .th a t asbestos glove plant? 2 A I t f u n c t i o n e d i n s e v e r a l ways. One way was 3 where the arm of the Department of Labor, the s a fe ty in s p e c ti 4 arm would e n t e r a p l a c e and i f t h e r e was a p o t e n t i a l hazard 5 r e l a t i n g to i n d u s t r i a l hygiene, they would c a l l our d iv is io n 6 i n t o make the e v a l u a t i o n . 7 The o t h e r was t o be c o n s u l t a t i v e and h e l p 8 i n d u s t r y p r o t e c t the h e a l t h of the worker by e n g in e e rin g 9 methods, as well as to measure the atmosphere to determine 10 whether they were above or below th is guideline. 11 ^ q When you were w ith the S t a t e of New York did 12 anyone t e l l you th a t exposures to asbestos a t any p a rtic u la r 13 l e v e l s m ight be h a r m f u l to human h e a l t h ? 14 MR. RUBIN: t j e c t i o n a s t o form. 15 % A A sb e s to s was co n s id e re d one of the to x ic 16 m a t e r i a l s by th e f a c t o f i t s t h r e s h o l d l i m i t v a l u e . No 17 s p e c i f i c d i s c u s s i o n was made a b o u t a s b e s t o s more than any 18 o t h e r m a t e r i a l . The d i s c u s s i o n s would g e n e r a l l y go to where 19 we had more work. S i l i c o s i s was d e f i n i t e l y a g r e a t e r 20 amount of discu ssio n than asbestos a t th a t time. 21 ^ Q Now, when d id you l e a v e th e S t a t e of New York? 22 A I le f t in 1956. 23 Q What d i d you do a f t e r t h a t ? Offic ia l Reporter Company % 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001130 SILVER SPRINC. M D. 20904 TeL 572-4324 12 1 I became a c o n s u lta n t in i n d u s t r i a l hygiene in 2 New York C i t y . 3 * 4 ' Q How lo n g d i d you remain i n t h a t -- A For four years, u n til I960. 5 Q L e t me f i n i s h my q u e s t i o n . 6 A Oh, I ' m s o r r y . 7 Q Did you deal with asb esto s exposure in th a t 8 position? 9 A I d o n 't r e c a ll any asbestos exposure in that 10 position, no. 11 q Did you deal with other problems of i n d u s t r i a l 12 dust control? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Can you e x p l a i n what you d id do and what your 15 ^ d u t i e s c o n c ern ed ? 16 A S i m i l a r to what i t was w ith the D iv is i o n of 17 Industrial Hygiene. I represented mostly small industry, 18 b u t some l a r g e i n d u s t r y , i n d e s i g n i n g i n d u s t r i a l e x h a u s t 19 system s f o r removal o f t o x i c m a t e r i a l s . I would make 20 su rv ey s, n o is e s u rv e y s , d u s t surveys; and I did o th e r work 21 ^besides i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n e , a s a l i c e n s e d p r o f e s s i o n a l 22 e n g i n e e r i n New York S t a t e . 23 Q Did you design dust c o n tro l equipment? Of f ic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Castleman.CERT001131 Tel. 372-4324 13 1 A Yes, I did. 2 Q Can you g iv e me some examples o f your c l i e n t s 3 during th a t fo u r-y e a r period? 4 A W e ll, I d id a b e r y l l i u m survey f o r RCA in 5 New J e r s e y . 6 I did a n o t h e r RCA su rv ey i n a n o t h e r p l a n t i n 1 New J e r s e y w i t h r e s p e c t t o employee c o m p la i n ts d u r in g t h e i r 8 work hours, which was the th ir d s h i f t , and th e re were a 9 mixture of chemicals so I c a n 't specify which chemicals. 10 Most o th e r c l i e n t s were small c l i e n t s , small 11 ^ b u s i n e s s e s i n New York C i t y . 12 Q What d id you do a f t e r you l e f t t h a t c o n s u l t i n g 13 position? 14 A I was h ir e d by Keasbeyis M a ttiso n , of Ambler, 15 Pennsylvania, as a dust control engineer. i6 Q How d id you f i r s t make c o n t a c t w i t h Keasbey& 1? Mattison? 18 A They had an ad v ertisem en t f o r a d u st co n tro l 19 e n g i n e e r i n th e New York Times and X responded t o t h a t . 20 21 ** Q To whom d id you respond? A To the a d d r e s s t h a t was i n the paper. 22 Q Who a t -- 23 A A p e r s o n n e l man was my f i r s t c o n t a c t . O ffic ia l r epo r ter Com pany ,7401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001132 :R SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel 572-4324 14 1 Q Who was t h a t ? 2 A I d o n ' t r e c a l l h i s name. He was n o t the head 3 'of the d e p a r t m e n t . A p p a r e n t l y , they had an o f f i c e i n the 4 R o c k efeller Center a t th a t time and I went to th a t o ffic e in 5 p a r t i c u l a r , but I d o n ' t remember h i s name. I'm s o r r y . 6 Q, Did you d i s c u s s the substance of the job with 7 that person? 8 A He d i s c u s s e d i t w ith me and I t o l d him my 9 experience and a p p a re n tly th a t i s what they were looking for 10 11 * Q What was t h e n e x t s t e p i n th e h i r i n g p r o c e s s ? A The n e x t s t e p was to go t o Ambler a t t h e i r 12 expense and be i n t e r v i e w e d by a more t e c h n i c a l p e rso n . 13 Q Do you remember who t h a t was? 14 A I b e l i e v e i t was A1 Spedding. 15 What was Mr. S p e d d i n g 's p o s i t i o n a t the time? 16 A W ell, he was the head of the E ngin ee rin g 17 Department a t that time. 18 Q Do you know t o whom he r e p o r t e d ? 19 A He r e p o r t e d t o , I b e l i e v e , th e v i c e - p r e s i d e n t 20 o f E n g i n e e r i n g , Mr. S c h n e i d e r . 21 ' Q Do you remember Mr. S c h n e i d e r ' s f i r s t name? 22 A No, I d o n ' t . 23 Q Do you remember to whom Mr. S c h n e i d e r r e p o r t e d ? * O ffic ia l R epo rter com pany 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001133 SILVER SPRING. MD. 2090* 15 1 A I d o n ' t r e a l l y know who he r e p o r t e d t o . Probablj 2 th e p r e s i d e n t , a s a v i c e - p r e s i d e n t . I am n o t s u r e . 3 Q So you went down to Ambler and met w ith Mr. 4 Spedding? 5 A Right. 6 Q Did you meet w ith him once or more than once? 7 A Once. 8 Q Did he d e s c r ib e the p o s i t i o n to you? 9 A He t o l d me th e y were l o o k i n g f o r a s p e c i a l i s t 10 i n d u s t c o n t r o l e n g i n e e r i n g . 11 Q Do you remember a n y t h i n g e l s e he t o l d you about 12 the background.of the problem or the purpose of the job? 13 A I d o n 't remember anything e l s e , no. I did meet 14 Mr. S c h n e i d e r a t th e tim e , b u t t h a t i s a l l I r e a l l y remember. 15 Q, Did Mr. Spedding e x p l a i n t o you why th e y were 16 lo o k in g f o r someone w ith your c a p a b i l i t i e s ? 17 A No. I J u s t assumed they needed somebody who 18 knew a l i t t l e more ab o u t d u s t c o n t r o l than they had a t the 19 time. 20 Q Did you a c c e p t t h e r e a f t e r ? 21 A Yes, I d id . 22 Q Without any fu rth er interview s? 23 A I had no oth er in te rv ie w . Of f ic ia l Reporter Company % 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001134 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 16 Q When d id you go to work? A , Q A E n g in eer. I b e l i e v e i t was May of t h a t y e a r , i 960. What was y our t i t l e ? I b e l i e v e my f i r s t t i t l e was Dust C o n tro l Q How lo n g did you remain Dust C ontrol E ngineer? A I was Dust C ontrol Engineer u n t il a few years l a t e r , a f t e r C e rta in T e e d to ok over and when X took over duties as corporate Safety Director. y e a r , b u t i t may have been ' 65. I d o n ' t know the e x a c t 11 Q 12 A 13 Q 14 A 15 ^ C o m p a n y . How lo n g d i d you remain c o r p o r a t e S a f e t y D irecto: From '65 t o ' 68, when I l e f t the company. What d i d you do when you l e f t the company? I joined American Mutual L ia b ility Insurance 16 Q When you f i r s t s t a r t e d w ith Keasbeyfc M a ttiso n 17 were your d u tie s company-wide or did they r e l a t e to a 18 particular plant? 19 A They were company-wide with re s p e c t to dust 20 co n tro l engineering and X added, with th e ir agreement, to 21 if do i n d u s t r i a l hygiene work. 22 Q Did the i n d u s t r i a l hygiene work p e r t a i n to a l l 23 plants or ju st to a p artic u lar plant? Of f ic ia l Reporter Company * 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001135 SILVER SPRING. M D . 20904 TeL 372-4324 17 1 A All the p la n ts th a t they had a t the time. 2 Q Did you v i s i t a l l the p l a n t s ? 3 A In what time space? 4 Q W ell, a t any time you were a t Keastey & M attison 5 or CertainTeed? 6 MR. BRUCH: I o b j e c t t o t h a t q u e s t i o n because 7 of the confusion with the plants. 8 A I believe I did. I believe I v isited every plan'; 9 Q Every p l a n t t h a t was owned by -- w e l l , Mr. 10 B r u c h ' s p o i n t i s w e l l t a k e n . 11 L e t ' s go back t o j u s t t h e p e r i o d when you were 12 working f o r Keasbey& M attison. That would be p r i o r to 1962. 13 Do you remember what t h e p l a n t s were? 14 A Well, I v i s i t e d every p la n t in the Ambler a re a , 15 4 which was a s h i n g l e p l a n t , an i n s u l a t i o n m a n u f a c tu r in g p l a n t 16 a t th e same p l a n t th e y had a s b e s t o s p a p e r and r u b b e r , i f I 17 r e c a l l , and the pipe p l a n t to o . That was i n the Ambler a r e a . 18 I do r e c a l l going to the S t. Louis p la n t and I believe I 19 v i s i t e d th e P e r t h Amboy r o o f i n g p l a n t once. 20 L e t's see, what other p la n ts did they have? 21 Q Did you e v e r v i s i t t h e p l a n t i n M e re d ith , New 22 Hampshire? 23 A Yes, I did. D efinitely. Offic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001136 SILVER SPRING. M D. 20904 Tel. 372-4324 18 1 Q . Keasbeyfc M a t t i s o n d id n o t have a p l a n t i n Texas 2 or C alifornia a t that time, did it? 3,, A Not a t t h a t ti m e . No, t h e y d i d n ' t have a p l a n t . 4 Q, A fte r you s t a r t e d work with CertainTeed did you 5 v i s i t a l l the p l a n t s t h a t C e rtainT ee d owned, a t one time or 6 another? 7 A In a ll the years, yes, I visited a l l their 8 p l a n t s , in a l l the y e a r s . While I was s t i l l a Dust Control 9 E n g i n e e r I d o n ' t remember v i s i t i n g a l l th e new p l a n t s t h a t 10 came w i t h C e r t a i n T e e d , b u t I c o n t in u e d v i s i t i n g the p l a n t s 11 * t h a t d e a l t w i t h a s b e s t o s and cement. 12 Q Mr. H o ro w itz, I t h i n k you d e s c r i b e d your job a s 13 f a l l i n g i n t o two p a r t s , d u s t c o n t r o l e n g i n e e r i n g on the one 14 hand and i n d u s t r i a l h y g ie n e on t h e o t h e r ? 15 ^ A I considered them as one. They both functioned 16 t o g e t h e r . That i s why I b r o u g h t them i n . B ut, y e s , they 17 considered i t both parts; rig h t. 18 Q Did you work f o r the same people while doing 19 both functions? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Who was y our immediate s u p e r v i s o r a t Keasbey & 22 M a t t i s o n when you f i r s t went t h e r e ? 23 A A1 Spedding. v Offic ia l Reporter Company * 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001137 SILVER SPRING. M D. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 19 1 Q Was t h e r e anyone who worked w ith you on the same 2 le v e l t h a t you were on? 3, A John McGinley was a young g ra d u a te of D rexel, I 4 b e l i e v e , and A1 Spedding a s k e d me to t r a i n him i n d u s t 5 control engineering, as well as in industrial hygiene, to 6 s o r t o f work w ith me. 7 Q Did you work w ith anyone e ls e d i r e c t l y ? 8 A I b e l i e v e A r t May, who had done some o f the 9 h y g ie n e work p r i o r t o my -- o r even d e s i g n . I am n o t too 10 su re a b o u t t h a t . But when you say work w i t h , we were a l l i n 11 * the E n g i n e e r i n g Department and we t a l k e d over problems .12 together. 13 Q How long d i d Mr. Spedding remain y o u r s u p e r v i s o r ? 14 A J u s t f o r th e two y e a r s u n t i l C e rta in T e e d took 15 f o v e r . 16 Q Then who became your s u p e r v i s o r , immediate 17 supervisor? . 18 A That i s a v e ry hazy a r e a . I d o n ' t know. I 19 t h i n k Mr. S c h n e i d e r to ok t h a t r o l e f o r s e v e r a l months. Then 20 I t h i n k Mr. Anderson, who was l a t e r p l a n t manager i n 21 H i l l s b o r o , took i t f o r s e v e r a l months, and maybe a y e a r or 22 two p a s s e d b e f o r e a Mr. A lp in e took t h a t Job. 23 Q Mr. Alpine? Offic ia l Reporter company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001138 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 20 1 A Yes. 2 Q Do you remember what h i s f i r s t name was? 3, 4 A Burt, I believe. Q Do you remember what h i s p o s i t i o n was? 5 A He was given the p o s i t i o n of head of th e 6 E n g i n e e r i n g D epartm ent, the same a s A1 Spedding had. 7 Q How lo n g d id Mr. McGinley work w i t h you? 8 A I d o n ' t know the l e n g t h o f tim e , b u t he l e f t to 9 go t o a n o t h e r Job and then came back a f t e r some space of time 10 and was h i r e d a s a r e g u l a r e n g i n e e r , n o t to work w ith me. 11 q Did someone r e p la c e him in working w ith you? 12 A No. 13 Q Was t h e r e anyone e l s e who had a s h i s primary 14 role e ith e r dust control engineering or in d u s tria l hygiene? 15 - P a Nobody had i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n e , b u t when I took 16 over the sa fe ty work I dropped the dust c o n tro l, except in 17 an advisory capacity to a draftsman th a t they assigned that 18 role to. 19 q Who was t h a t ? . 20 A I am a f r a i d I d o n ' t remember h i s name. His 21 ^ f i r s t name was George. 22 q L e t ' s go back t o I 9 6 0 , when you f i r s t went to 23 Keasbey& M a t t i s o n . T e l l us what your d u t i e s were w ith * Of f ic ia l Reporter Com pany 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 209<M Castleman.CERT001139 Tel. 572-4324 21 1 regard to dust control engineering. 2 A I t i s hard to remember. My d u t i e s , i n g e n e r a l , 3 ^ w e r e t o improve old a r e a s t h a t may need improvement, a s w e ll 4 a s d e s i g n new a r e a s t h a t needed d u s t c o n t r o l e x h a u s t sy stem s, 5 in general. 6 Q I g u e s s maybe I d i d n ' t a s k you t h i s . When d id 7 you stop doing dust c o n tro l engineering work? 8 A When I was given the f u n c t i o n a s s a f e t y 9 su p erv iso r o f the company. 10 Q And when was t h a t ? 11 H A I j u s t d o n 't remember the y e a r , but I think i t 12 was about '65. 13 Q I t was a f t e r CertainTeed took over? 14 A Oh, y e s , d e f i n i t e l y . 15 ^ Q Did your d u tie s in the dust co n tro l en gin eerin g 16 phase change s i g n i f i c a n t l y from i 960 to when you became 17 Safety D irector? 18 A J u s t a b o u t th e same. S e v e r a l new p l a n t s were 19 b e i n g b u i l t , so a l o t of i t had t o do w i t h new p l a n t s . 20 Q And d i d some have to do w i t h e x i s t i n g p l a n t s ? 21 A Yes. 22 Q R etrofitting existing plants? 23 A Yes. * Officia1l240R) ePpaolerrmtoerDricvoempanyCastleman.CERT001140 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 372-4324 ' 22 1 Q Who made the d e c i s i o n s a s to what d u s t c o n t r o l 2 equipm ent, new d u s t c o n t r o l equipment was needed i n old 3 -plants? 4 A G enerally, the -- 5 MR. BRUCH: May I o b je ct a g a in . Are you ta lk in g 6 from '60 to '62 in th a t q uestion? 7 Q L e t 's take i t one a t a tim e. From '60 to '62? 8 A I f i t were a new system --and I am j u s t ta lk in g 9 g e n e r a lly because I cannot sp ot th a t th ere were new system s 10 between '60 and '62-- but i f I t were a new system , i t would 11 ^ g en er a lly come from the p la n t manager, who would ask the 12 Engineering Department for complete engineering fo r the 13 i n s t a l l a t i o n o f new equipm ent, and I would be a ssig n e d the 14 d u st c o n tr o l th a t had to do w ith th a t new equipm ent. 15 ^ Q Were any o f the dust c o n tr o l e n g in ee rin g 16 p r o je c ts th a t you worked on approved by company-wide manage 17 ment? 18 A I don*t remember any kind o f form al ap p roval. 19 I t was a ccep ted a s to what was needed. I would work out the 20 com plete c o s t a n a ly s is and, in g en era l -- and I im agine t h i s -- 21 *a d e c is io n was made to go ahead or not to go ahead. 22 MR. RUBIN: Note my o b je c tio n , p le a s e . 23 MR. BRUCH: The same o b je c tio n . Offic ia l Reporter company 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Castleman.CERT001141 Tel. 572-4324 23 1 Q Do you have any r e a s o n t o b e l i e v e t h a t 2 company-wide management p a r t i c i p a t e d i n th e d e c i s i o n , o r was 3 **it e n tir e ly l e f t to the local p lan t manager? 4 MR. RUBIN: The same o b j e c t i o n . 5 A W e ll, I d o n ' t know the w orkings of the 6 economics of the p l a n t , w hether d e c i s i o n s had t o be made -- 7 somebody had t o p r o b a b ly make an okay a s t o what expe nses had 8 to be paid fo r any p a r tic u la r p la n t, and what the protocol 9 was I have no id e a . 10 Q Who made t h e d e c i s i o n t h a t more d u s t c o n t r o l 11 *rwork a t a p a r t i c u l a r p l a n t needed t o be done, e i t h e r by 12 f i x i n g up e x i s t i n g equipment or i n s t a l l i n g new equipment? 13 A Well, I t ie d in the i n d u s t r i a l hygiene work 14 with the d u st c o n tro l work because you needed th a t type of * 15 * i n f o r m a t i o n t o make a d e c i s i o n . So I would s u r v e y or take 16 a i r samples where I thought i t was needed. I would take 17 samples and then I would w r i t e my r e p o r t t o A1 Spedding 18 t h a t s o - a n d - s o a r e a was what I would c o n s id e r above the 19 g u i d e l i n e and would recommend new or improved d u s t c o n t r o l , 20 or I would say i t was okay. So I would i n i t i a t e i t . But, 21 of course, systems were i n i t i a t e d fo r other reasons. 22 Q Did your proposals have to meet the approval of 23 Mr. Spedding? Official Reporter company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001142 SILVER SPRINC. M D. 20904 TeL 572-4324 2k 1 A Yes, I imagine so. 2 Q Did he take your p ro p o sa ls and h i s recommendatioi 3 -*to Mr. S c h n e id e r ? 4 A I believe so, yes. 5 MR. RUBIN: Note my o b j e c t i o n to a l l o f h i s 6 answers. . 7 MR. BEERS: Mr. Rubin, i s t h e r e any problem a s 8 to form t h a t you would l i k e to t e l l me a b o u t ? 9 MR. RUBIN: No. I am j u s t assum ing, Mr. B e e r s , 10 t h a t t h i s may be used f o r t r i a l , and any answ e rs i n which he 11 "^assumes o r im a g in e s o r g u e s s e s I t h i n k a r e o b j e c t i o n a b l e and 12 I j u s t want t o n o te my o b j e c t i o n so when we re v ie w i t -- 13 THE WITNESS: I can only resp o n d t h a t way 14 because I did not ask them what they d id . 15 f Q But i t was your u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t Mr. Spedding 16 c l e a r e d y our p r o p o s a l s and h i s recommendations w ith Mr. 17 Schneider? 18 A I b eliev e he would have to , yes. 19 Q, You d o n ' t know w hethe r Mr. S c h n e i d e r had to 20 f u r t h e r c l e a r the m a tte r w ith anyone e l s e in the company-wide 21 ^managem ent? 22 A P u r e l y a s s u m p tio n s on my p a r t . 23 Q What was the n a t u r e and scope o f your d u t i e s i n - Offic ia l Reporter Company - 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001143 SILVER SPRING. MD. 2090 Tel. 372-4324 25 1 th e I n d u s t r i a l hygiene f u n c t i o n from i 960 to 162, when you 2 were working f o r Keasbey & M a ttis o n ? How did you t i e t h a t i n 3 with dust control engineering? 4 A Well, could I answer th a t by giving an example? 5 Q Absolutely. 6 A W ell, l e t ' s ta k e the M eredith p l a n t . The 7 M eredith p l a n t was th e only t e x t i l e p l a n t they had. 8 Q I s t h a t i n New Hampshire? 9 A That was i n New Hampshire; r i g h t . 10 I was a s k e d t o make a v i s i t and e v a l u a t e t h e i r 11 " ^ e x i s t i n g d u s t c o n t r o l . I would go up and measure the a i r 12 flow i n the dust system. I would look a t the type of dust 13 c o lle c tin g they had. I would take a i r samples In worker 14 exposure. fc 15 v * I would then r e p o r t what X found, make a 16 judgment, a p ro fe ssio n a l judgment as to adequacy and the 17 need and make recommendations a s t o what I th o u g h t was 18 necessary. 19 Q To whom would you make th o se recommendations? 20 A A l l r e p o r t s of mine went t o A1 Spedding. 21 ^ % 22 23 Q Who r e p o r t e d then t o th e p l a n t manager? A I believe a copy went to the p la n t manager. Q Can you e x p l a i n t o me how th e d e c i s i o n g o t made, * Of f ic ia1l240R1 ePpaolerrmtoerDriCveo m panCy astleman.CERT001144 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 TeL 572-4324 26 t h e f i n a l d e c i s i o n g o t made a s between th e E n g i n e e r i n g Department and the plan t manager? ^ A I b e l i e v e i t was an economic d e c i s i o n . And, a g a i n , I b e l i e v e . I . d i d n ' t a s k anybody and nobody t o l d me t h i s . I t was made on the same b a s i s of any e x p e n d i t u r e i n th e p l a n t . I f a new b o i l e r had to be p u t i n , the b o i l e r man, who happened t o be A rt May, would make h i s recommendations. I t would go to A1 S pedding, and th e n i n a l l p r o b a b i l i t y the d e c i s i o n had to be made between the manager and c o r p o r a t e , a s t o w h e th e r the e x p e n d i t u r e should be made f o r t h a t y e a r . -c Q Your understanding -- MR. RUBIN: Note my o b j e c t i o n t o th e answ er. Q Your d esc rip tio n ofth i s process applied throughout a l l the Keasbey& M attison p l a n t s ? & A As f a r a s I u n d e r s ta n d i t . V . ' Q Was a s i m i l a r system f o r d e c i s i o n - m a k i n g ap p lied a t CertainTeed a f t e r 1962? A I believe so. Q, Did you -- MR. RUBIN: Note my o b j e c t i o n . > MR, BRUCH: I o b j e c t to t h a t q u e s t i o n i n one r e s p e c t . Mr. S pedding n e v e r went w i t h C e r t a i n T e e d , n o r did some o f t h e s e o t h e r p eo p le t h a t have been m e n tio n e d . Offic ia l Reporter Company * 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001145 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 ">-4324 27 MR. RUBIN: Mr. B e e r s / can we a g r e e t h a t I w i l l have a continuing o bjection to any answer with resp ect to -what he b e lie v e s or g u esses, so I d o n 't have to keep in te r r u p tin g , or would you r a th e r I in te rru p t? MR. BEERS: I f your o b j e c t i o n i s a s to form, I think I would lik e to have i t . 7 MR. RUBIN: These a r e n o t a s to form, but I a s k 8 th a t the answers be s tr ic k e n . 5 MR. BEERS: You may have a l l the o b j e c t i o n s 10 c o n t i n u i n g you want on t h a t s u b j e c t . 11 MR. RUBIN: P i n e . I j u s t d o n ' t want to keep 12 interrupting unless i t is necessary. 13 Q I am now t a l k i n g a b o u t the p e r i o d a f t e r 14 C e rta in T e e d to ok o v e r . Although d i f f e r e n t p e r s o n s may have 15 *r h e l d th e d i f f e r e n t p o s i t i o n s t h a t you have d e s c r i b e d , was 16 the decision-m aking process th a t you to ld us about with 17 regard to Keasb^& Mattison sim ilar to that during the period 18 when you worked f o r C e rt a in T e e d ? 19 MR. RUBIN: O b je c tio n a s t o form. 20 A As much a s I knew o f the d e c is io n - m a k in g 21 ^ p r o c e s s i n Keasbey& M a t t i s o n , I knew j u s t a s much w i t h 22 CertainTeed. 23 Q Did you receive copies of the annual budget f Offic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. M D. 20904 Castleman.CERT001146 Tel. 572-4324 28 1 when you were w i t h Keasbey& M a ttis o n ? 2 A I did not. 3- Q, Did you r e c e i v e c o p i e s of the a n n u a l budget when 4 you were w ith CertainTeed? 5 A I did not. 6 Q Did you receive any economic or fin a n c ia l 7 in fo rm atio n from management th a t included item s f o r dust 8 c o n t r o l when you were w i t h Keasbeyfc M a t t i s o n ? 9 MR. MASON: Do you u n d e r s ta n d what he i s a s k i n g ? 10 THE WITNESS: I am a f r a i d p e r h a p s I d o n ' t . 11 * Q Did you ever see any budget p ro je c tio n s th at 12 included items for dust control? 13 A No. 14 Q. Any memorandafromcompany-wide management t h a t 15 v d i s c u s s e d t h e c o s t o f d u s t c o n t r o l ? 16 A I was n o t in c lu d ed i n t h a t type of in f o rm a tio n . 17 Q One more q u e s t i o n on t h i s s u b j e c t . When you 18 went to Meredith to evaluate dust co n d itio n s, what did you 19 u n d e r s t a n d t h e d u s t t o be made up o f? What were some of 20 i t s component p a rts? 21 > MR. HILLY: I o b j e c t to t h e form. 22 A My u n d e r s t a n d i n g was i t was a t l e a s t 90p e r c e n t 23 a s b e s t o s p l u s some c o t t o n and some s y n t h e t i c s . Official Reporter Company " . 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001147 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 7 j/2-4324 29 1 Q Did you do s i m i l a r surveys a t the Ambler p la n ts 2 when you were working f o r Keasbey& M a t t i s o n ? 3 A Yes. 4 Q What d i d you u n d e r s ta n d were th e component 5 p a r t s of the d u st whose le v e l you measured a t Ambler? 6 A That v a r ie d from the o p e r a tio n where the raw 7 m a te ria l was added in c e r ta in a re a s as 100 percent asb esto s, 8 i n c e r t a i n a r e a s where s i l i c a was added, and cement. Then, 9 a f t e r th e m i x t u r e was made, my u n d e r s t a n d i n g was t h e r e was 10 a b o u t 14 p e r c e n t a s b e s t o s i n the f i n a l p r o d u c t, bound up in 11 the cement. 12 Q What was y our u n d e r s t a n d i n g a s t o th e component 13 p a r t s o f t h e d u s t t h a t was measured a t S t . L o u is when you 14 ^ w o rk e d f o r Keasb;ey& M a t t i s o n ? V 15 A Similar. 16 Q The same a s i n Ambler? 17 A Yes. 18 MR. BRUCH: I o b j e c t t o t h a t q u e s t i o n . The 19 same a s i n Ambler w i t h r e s p e c t t o th e cement p ip e p l a n t or 20 w ith r e s p e c t to the o th e r p la n ts in Ambler during the > . 21 Keasb^& Mattison days? 22 Q Mr. Bruchwould l i k e t h a t c l a r i f i c a t i o n . Can 23 you help us? Offic ia l reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001148 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 T ,, l m a i ~i a 30 1 A The same a s th e a s b e s t o s cement p ip e p l a n t o n ly . 2 Q A f t e r 1962> when you worked f o r C e r t a in T e e d , d id 3 ,,you a l s o work w ith th e d u s t l e v e l s a t some of th e o t h e r plant, 4 A The same a s th e a s b e s t o s cement p l a n t s p r i o r to 5 that time. 6 Q Could you j u s t t e l l us th a t in a complete 7 s e n te n c e , what your u n d e rs ta n d in g was a s to the component 8 p a rts of the dust le v e ls in the p la n ts, say, a t H illsboro and 9 at Santa Clara? 10 A The answ er would be the same a t H i l l s b o r o and 11 `S a n ta C l a r a , which would be 100 p e r c e n t a s b e s t o s a s one of 12 the raw m a t e r i a l s to make a s b e s t o s cement p i p e , 100 p e r c e n t 13 s i l i c a t o make th e cem ent, and 100 p e r c e n t cement, a s raw 14 m a t e r i a l s ; and then th e f i n a l product a s 14 p e r c e n t a s b e s to s , 15 "j^with t h e r e s t a s a f i n i s h e d cement, combined cement. 16 MR. BEERS: F o r the n e x t l i t t l e w h ile or long 17 w h ile we a r e going t o be d e a l i n g w i t b a s e r i e s of 20-sorae 18 documents. 19 This is off the record. 20 (Discussion off the record.) 21 > Q I have asked the Reporter a t the beginning of 22 the deposition to mark each of these documents as Horowitz 23 E x h ib its 1 through 25. I would lik e to turn to the document Of f ic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Castleman.CERT001149 Tel. 572-4324 31 1 t h a t has been marked a s Horowitz E x h i b i t No. 1. Do you have 2 t h a t i n f r o n t of you, Mr. Horowitz? 3 A Yes, I do. 4 Q. J u s t to make su re we a r e a l l working w ith the 5 same p a p e r , would you j u s t read what a p p e a r s to be the t i t l e 6 of th a t document? 7 A Memorandum on Proposed E p i d e m i o l o g i c a l Study 8 of Lung Cancer in Asbestos Workers f o r the Asbestos T e x tile 9 Institute. 10 Q Have you e v e r seen t h i s document b e f o r e ? 11 A Yes. 12 Q When d id you f i r s t se e i t ? 13 A I can only guess t h a t I p ic k e d i t up d u rin g my 14 m e e t i n g s between i 960 and 1962 a t th e A s b e s to s T e x t i l e I n s t i t i ' 'i 15 Q, I s t h i s a document t h a t you b ro u g h t t o Keasbeyfc 16 Mattison? 17 MR. BRUCH: O b je c tio n a s t o form. 18 A I don't recall. 19 Q Could i t have been a document t h a t was a t 20 Keasbey& M a t t i s o n when you got t h e r e ? 21 MR. BRUCH: O b je c tio n t o t h e form of the q u e s t i o n 22 A I don't think so. 23 Q You d o n ' t t h i n k what? Offic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001150 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. .572-4324 32 A Institute. I b e l i e v e I picked i t up a t the A sb esto s T e x t i l e 3 Do you se e th e l i t t l e h a n d w r i t i n g n e x t to the 4 t i t l e th a t appears to say 1956? 5 A Yes. 6 Q With a question mark? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Do you know who p u t t h a t d a t e t h e r e ? 9 A That i s my h a n d w r i t i n g . 10 11 * Q Do you remember when you p u t t h a t mark t h e r e ? A I was c u r i o u s t o know when th e f i r s t knowledge 12 of the hazard due to a s b e s t o s was a v a i l a b l e , and in the 13 rep o rt they mention 1956. I believe I put i t there because 14 I d i d n 't know the d a t e o f t h i s memorandum. So I j u s t p u t i t 15 t h e r e f o r my own i n f o r m a t i o n . - 16 Q Do you remember when you p u t i t t h e r e ? 17 A No, I d o n ' t . 18 Q Do you remember -- 19 A I have a f e e l i n g i t was done r e c e n t l y , but I 20 d o n ' t know. 21 Q I s i t your r e c o lle c tio n th a t you put the date 22 t h e r e when you were s t i l l w ith Keasbqyfc M a t t i s o n or some 23 time la te r? f Offic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001151 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 . 572-4324 33 MR. MASON: He s a i d he b e l i e v e d t h a t he d id i t r e c e n t l y b u t he does n o t know. THE WITNESS: That i s r i g h t . I d o n ' t know. I b e l i e v e I d i d i t r e c e n t l y , b u t I do n o t know. Q By r e c e n t l y you mean a f t e r you l e f t C e rta in T e e d ? A Yes, b u t I am not s u r e . Q. Did you p l a c e t h i s document i n some f i l e a t Keasbey& M attison? A My p e r s o n a l f i l e . . 1( Q Are you c l e a r t h a t you f i r s t saw th e document 1] w h i l e you s t i l l were a t Keasbey & M a ttis o n ? 12 A Yes. 13 Q What p e r s o n a l f i l e was t h a t t h a t you p la c e d 14 t h i s document i n , Mr. Horowitz? 15 A I kept f i l e s of everything re la tin g to the 16 hazards r e l a t i n g to the job, having to do with the Job, and 17 I would have i t i n my desk or a f i l e n e a r my d e s k . 18 Q Could you be a l i t t l e b i t more s p e c i f i c about 19 what you mean by h a z a r d s r e l a t i n g t o the jo b ? 20 A Well, any papers or any documents re la tin g to 21 s i l i c a , how t o sample any new c o n c e p t s r e l a t i n g t o s i l i c a , 22 diatomaceous e a r t h , a s b e s to s or any m a t e r i a l s t h a t I would 23 be r e s p o n s i b l e f o r f o r the company I worked, I k e p t f i l e s Offic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001152 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 on. I always have done th a t. Q Did you ta k e th o s e f i l e s w ith you when you l e f t " CertainTeed? A Yes, I did. , Q Did you le a v e any documents t h a t had been contained in your personal f i l e th a t you j u s t described a t CertainTeed? A I took my p e r s o n a l f i l e s w ith me. Q Do you know w h e th e r any o t h e r c o p i e s o f t h i s document were ever lo c a te d a t Keasbey& M attison or C e rta in - Teed? A I.have no id e a , no. Q Did you make any c o p i e s ? A I d o n ' t r e c a l l . I d o n ' t know. Ja w ' Q Do you know who w rote t h i s document? A No. Q Do you have any r e a s o n to b e l i e v e t h a t i t was w r i t t e n by someone connected w ith the A sbestos T e x t i l e Institute? A Yes. I t ' s c a l l e d a memorandum f o r ATI. I t > ' says so on the l a s t page. In f a c t , on ev e ry page i t says that. Q Do you have any o t h e r knowledge o r I n f o r m a t i o n Of f ic ia l R e p o r t e r C o m p a n y ^ .. . CDTnnH. ,, 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001153 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 T ,,1 f7*i 35 or understanding whatsoever as to the source or origin of f th is document? a A I have no id ea. A Q Did you d isc u ss th is document w ith anyone while 5 a t an Asbestos T ex tile I n s titu t e meeting or gathering? f A I d o n ' t have t o t a l r e c a l l . I am s u r e I d i d , 7 but I d o n 't have to ta l r e c a ll. a Q Did you d isc u ss th is document with anyone a t 9 KeasbeySc M a t t i s o n ? 10 A A g ain , I d o n ' t have t o t a l r e c a l l . A l l I know i s | n i n t h e f u n c t i o n I had i t was my r e s p o n s i b i l i t y t o p a s s on 12 i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t m ig h t be n o t known by th e company. 13 Q. To whom d id you norm ally p a s s on such i n f o r m a t i o h ? 14 A To th e one I was d i r e c t l y r e s p o n s i b l e t o , and 15 t h a t would be A1 S p e d d in g . 16 Q Did you e v e r pas s on such i n f o r m a t i o n t o Mr. 17 Schneider? 18 A In general discussion, yes. Specifically, I 19 can't recall. 20 Q Do you remember w hether or n o t you e v e r d i s c u s s e j 21 ^ t h i s document o r i t s c o n t e n t s w ith any p l a n t managers or 22 other employees a t a p a rtic u la r plant? 23 A Not the document in p a r tic u la r , no. Offic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 '.1. 372-4324 Castleman.CERT001154 36 1 Q How a b o u t th e c o n t e n t s o f th e document? 2 A The whole c o n c e p t was i n g e n e r a l d i s c u s s i o n a t 3 various times. 4 Q While you were a t KeasbQi& M attison? 5 A Again, I d o n 't have t o ta l r e c a l l . 6 MR. BRUCH: I o b j e c t . I would l i k e to n o te my 7 o b j e c t i o n to the term "whole c o n c e p t " . I d o n ' t know whether 8 the witness is referrin g to asbestos or -- 9 THE WITNESS: By whole c o n c e p t I mean a l l 10 hazards. 11 * Q Did you e v e r d i s c u s s w i t h anyone a t Keasbgyfc 12 Mattison the study or survey that is referred to in this 13 document? 14 E 15 A Which s u rv ey i s t h a t , i n p a r t i c u l a r ? Q On page 2, Mr. H orow itz. 16 A Could you s p e c if ic a lly point to which area? 17 Q Do you se e on page 2 -- 18 A Oh, th e r e s u l t s of the p r e l i m i n a r y survey? I 19 have no s p e c i f i c r e c a l l on t h a t . 20 Q Did you ever d is c u s s e i t h e r t h i s document or 21 i t s contents with anyone a t Turner & Newall? 22 A No. 23 Q Did you ever d isc u ss thes u b je c t of ther i s k of Offic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001155 SILVER SPRING. MD. 2090a Tel. 572-4324 37 cancer from asb esto s exposure with anyone a t Turner & Newall? A Yes. " Q discussion? Do y u remember when you f i r s t had such a 'I A A v i s i t was made by a Dr. Knox from Turner & I Newall and he brought the s u b je c t up. I ( 1C dr 11 12 Q A v i s i t to where? A To Keasbeyfc M a t t i s o n . Q Do you remember when t h a t was? A I b e l i e v e i t was i 960. Q What was Dr. K nox's f u l l name, do you know? A I. d o n 't r e c a l l h i s f i r s t name. 13 Q What was h i s p o s i t i o n a t T u rn e r & Newall a t the 14 time? . 15 A I b e l i e v e he was a medical c o n s u l t a n t to Turner 16 & Newall from an a s s o c i a t i o n on a s b e s t o s , and I d o n ' t have 17 r e c a l l o f th e name. I d o n ' t know even w h e th e r he was 18 employed f u l l time or a s a c o n s u lta n t. X have no knowledge 19 in that area. 20 Q h 21 *M a t t i s o n ? 22 A What was th e o c c a s i o n of h i s v i s i t to Keasbey& I b e l i e v e h i s purpose was to a d v i s e the 23 management of the hazard of a s b e s to s . Of f ic ia l Reporter Co m p a n y castieman.CERT00ii56 12401 Palermo Drive Sir ' - PRINC. MD. 2090a Cir** A 38 1 ft Did th a t meeting take p lace a t Ambler? 2 A Yes. 3. ft 4 p resen t i 5 A 6 ft 7 A Do you have any r e c o l l e c t i o n a s t o who was he meeting? Mr. S c h n e id e r and Mr. Speddlng were p r e s e n t . Do you remember anyone e l s e ? Again, I d o n ' t have t o t a l r e c a l l . Mr. H u tc h c ra f 8 m ig h t ha3 9 ft c-r-o-f-t? 10 A I t might be. 11 * MR* BRUCH: I o b j e c t to th e l a s t name on the 12 b a s i s t h a t he i s n o t c e r t a i n . He so s t a t e d . 13 He i s g u e s s in g a s to who was a t th e m eeting and 14 you a r e a l l o w i n g him to c o n t i n u e . You n e v e r gave him the 15 in stru ctio n in the beginning not to guess a t answers. 16 What a r e you l o o k in g a t me so i n c r e d u l o u s l y 17 f o r ? He i s g u e s s i n g . He sa y s he d o e s n ' t know. 18 THE WITNESS: I d o n ' t have t o t a l r e c a l l , 19 ft Do you remember how l o n g th e m e e tin g l a s t e d ? 20 A Approximately an hour. 21 * ft Bo you remember why Dr. Knox was g iv e n the 22 ta s k of coming to give advice to Keasbey& M attison? 23 A I d o n ' t know a t whose i n s t i g a t i o n h i s v i s i t was Offic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Castleman.CERT001157 Tel. 372-4324 , 39 1 made. A l l I know i s t h a t he was going to come and I was 2 invited to the meeting. 3 - Q. Do you remember what i n t e r e s t T urn e r & Newall 4 had i n the a f f a i r s of Keasbeyfc M attison a t t h a t time? 5 MR. MASON: I o b j e c t t o t h e form of t h a t q u e s t i o n 6 A I can s t i l l answer that? 7 Q Yes, s i r . 8 A I b e l i e v e Dr. Knox f e l t t h a t i n England they 9 were much more aware of t h e h a z a r d of a s b e s t o s and t h a t i n 10 America, th e U nited S t a t e s , we were n o t t h a t much aware. 11 Q Do you remember w h eth e r or n o t T & N, T urner & 12 Newall, had any r e l a t i o n s h i p w ith Keasbey& M attison a t the 13 time ? 14 A I only know o f th e r e l a t i o n s h i p t h a t I u n d e rsto o d <k 15 - - t h a t t h e y owned Keasbgy& M a t t i s o n . 16 Q What d id Dr. Knox t e l l you a t t h a t m eeting? 17 A His concern as w ell as the general knowledge 18 t h a t seemed to p r e v a i l i n th e B r i t i s h Empire, t h a t c a n c e r was 19 associated with asbestos. 20 Q Did he d i s c u s s any p a r t i c u l a r form of cancer? 21 A Yes. He m e ntioned m e so th e lio m a . 22 Q What d i d he s a y a b o u t mesotheliom a? 23 A That i t was a unique c a n c e r, t h a t a person could Offic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001158 SILVER SPRING, MD. 20904 40 1 g e t i t w ith even low exposure, and they were n o t sure about 2 w hether i t was due to i n g e s t i o n or -- w e ll , I s h o u ld n 't say 3 they were not su re . They th in k i t might have been caused 4 both by in g e s tio n as w ell as in h a la tio n . 5 Q Did Dr. Knox t e l l you what th e b a s i s o f h i s 6 conclusions was? 7 A He showed us a p i c t u r e of a s l i c e o f a lung 8 showing a mesothelioma which was, I b e lie v e , taken from a 9 past worker in England. 10 Q Do you remember whether he r e p o r t e d t h a t t h a t 11 *was a p a s t T u r n e r & Newall worker? 12 A He d id n o t . 13 Q Did he t e l l you what the source of h i s d a ta was? 14 A He s a i d many people worked i n t h i s a r e a in 15 England, b u t I do n 't r e c a l l any s p e c i f i c s o u rc e . 16 Q What do you mean by "in t h i s a r e a " ? 17 A Wrote p a p e r s , m e dica l p a t h o l o g i s t s o r people who 18 were in te re s te d in the toxicology of asb esto s. 19 Q Did he say a n y t h i n g more than you have 20 described to us about comparisons between the lev el of 21 ^ u n d e r s t a n d i n g i n Europe and the l e v e l o f u n d e r s t a n d i n g i n the 22 United S tates with regard to the hazards of asbestos 23 exposure? Of f ic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001159 SILVER SPRINC. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 kl 1 MR. HILLY: I o b j e c t to the form. 2 A I have h e a r d him say i t a t o t h e r tim e s when I 3 heard him a t a meeting, but I d o n 't r e c a l l th a t he said i t 4 at that time. 5 Q Did he make any recommendations to you or to 6 anyone e l s e a t Keasbey& M attiso n ab o u t coping w ith the problerr 7 th a t he had raised ? 8 A N othing s p e c i f i c . The g e n e r a l f e e l i n g was t h a t 9 he was t r y i n g to inform us to be more concerned than he 10 thought the American a t t i t u d e towards the disease was. 11 Q By th e g e n e r a l f e e l i n g do you mean the g e n e r a l 12 f e e l i n g between you and o th e r members a t the meeting? 13 A No; g e n e r a l a t t i t u d e i n th e U n ite d S t a t e s . 14 Q I'm so rry . I think you s ta rte d th a t l a s t 15 ' - a n s w e r , Mr. H orow itz, by s a y i n g t h a t th e g e n e r a l f e e l i n g was 16 t h a t he had come f o r s u c h - a n d - s u c h a p u r p o s e . 17 A Oh, I 'm s o r r y . 18 Q Do you mean th e g e n e r a l f e e l i n g -- 19 A I d o n ' t know what th e g e n e r a l f e e l i n g o f the 20 p e o p le t h e r e ' was. Nobody t o l d me t h a t he came e i t h e r a t the 21 ^ r e q u e s t of somebody o r what have you. I j u s t th o u g h t he was 22 i n t e r e s t e d i n g e t t i n g a company t h a t was owned by T urner & 23 Newall t o make a s p e c i f i c v i s i t , a l t h o u g h he was i n the Offic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001160 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 5 7 2 - 4 3 2 4 4-2 c o u n t r y f o r o t h e r r e a s o n s , In t h a t same a r e a , he came to v i s i t and would g i v e a p e r s o n a l v i s i t on t h a t same s u b j e c t to .u s . ' Q Could you tu rn to page 2 of t h i s Document No. 1, Mr. H o ro w itz . I want to a s k you a q u e s t i o n a b o u t th e paragraph that begins under the heading, Results of Prelim i n ary S urvey. Do you se e where i t s a y s t h a t v i s i t s were made to seven member p l a n t s o f the ATI? A How f a r down i s t h a t ? MR. MASON: R ig h t a t th e b e g i n n in g ( i n d i c a t i n g ) . 1] * THE WITNESS: Oh, y e s . 12 Q Do you know whether any v i s i t s were made t o a 13 KeasbeySs M a t t i s o n p l a n t ? 14 A No. I d o n ' t know t h i s s tu d y a t a l l . I t was 15 J u s t a r e p o r t t h a t I p ic k e d up. T h is was p r i o r t o my tim e, 16 1956. 17 Q L e t 's turn to the document th a t has been marked 18 Horowitz No. 2 . Would you re a d the h e a d in g on t h a t document. 19 A Proposed In d u s tria l Hygiene Program For All 20 Keasbey& M a ttiso n P l a n t s . 21 * Q Have you e v e r seen t h a t document b e f o r e ? 22 A I wrote i t . 23 0. Is t h i s a copy of a document th a t you wrote? Of f ic ia l Reporter Com pany 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001161 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 43 1 A Yes. 2 Q Can you t e l l us the c i r c u m s t a n c e s u n d er which 3 .you wrote th is document? 4 A I b e l i e v e i t was a r e s u l t of Dr. Knox's m e eting. 5 I was asked to work up a program f o r a l l the Keasbey& 6 Mattison plants. 7 q, Do you remember who a s k ed yout o do t h a t ? 8 A I t h i n k i t was a c onsensus of Mr. C h i l d s , Mr. 9 S c h n e i d e r and Mr. Spedding. 10 Q Who i s Mr. C h i ld s ? 11 -f. A My r e l a t i o n s h i p w ith him had t o do w i t h h i s 12 knowledge in the workman's compensation area . 13 Q, Do you remember what h i s f i r s t name was? 14 A I t h i n k i t was H. B. C h i l d s , b u t I d o n ' t know. 15 * Q, Do you know where Mr. C h i l d s i s now? 16 A I have no id e a. 17 Q Did he s ta y w ith CertainTeed a f t e r 1962? 18 A I don't think so. 19 Q What was h i s p o s i t i o n a t Keasbey& M a ttis o n i n 20 I960? 21 A I th o u g h t he was an i n s u r a n c e man, b u t I am not 22 sure. 23 Q Was he an employee of Keasbey& M a t t i s o n ? Offic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Castleman.CERT001162 Tel. 572-4324 kk 1 A Yes, he was. 2 Q At Ambler? 3 A At Ambler. 4 Q In the corporate headquarters? 5 A In the corporate headquarters. 6 Q . To whom d id you g iv e t h i s memorandum? 7 A To Mr. Spedding, who p r o b a b ly gave i t t o Mr. 8 S c h n e i d e r , b u t I d o n ' t know. I am s u r e he d i d . 9 Q Do you know anyone e l s e who was l i k e l y to have 10 gotten a copy? 11 W/ MR. BRUCH: I o b j e c t t o th e form. 12 A I b e l i e v e Mr. P o r t e r g o t a copy. 13 Q Who i s Mr. P o r t e r ? 14 A P re s id e n t of the company. 15 Q Do you know w h eth e r any of th e p l a n t managers 16 received a copy? 17 A I do n o t know t h a t . 18 q I would now l i k e t o t u r n t o the document t h a t 19 h a s been marked Horowitz E x h i b i t 3 Could you r e a d the 20 heading of th a t document. 21 A The h ea d in g o f t h a t i s , Notes on P a p e r s a t 13th 22 I n t e r n a t i o n a l Congress on O ccupational H e a lth . 23 Q Would you r e a d th e d a t e a l s o . Official Reporter Company ft 12401 Palermo Drive s il v e r s p r in g . MD. 20904 Castleman.CERT001163 Tel. 572-4324 45 1 A The d a t e i s August 3 r d , I960. 2 Q Have you e v e r seen t h i s document b e f o r e ? 3 # . A 4 Q I wrote i t . This document i s a c o r r e c t copy of the document 5 th a t you wrote with th a t heading? 6 A Yes. 7 Q May I ta k e i t t h a t you d i d a t t e n d t h e 13th 8 I n t e r n a t i o n a l Congress on O ccupational H e a lth ? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Where was t h a t c o n g re s s h e l d ? 11' .A I b e l i e v e i t was th e Waldorf A s t o r i a i n New York 12 City. 13 Q Did anyone e l s e a t te n d from Keasbey& M attison? 14 A I c a n ' t answer t h a t . I d o n ' t know. I d o n 't 15 P th in k so 16 Q Who a u t h o r i z e d you t o a t t e n d ? 17 A Mr. S pedding. 18 Q Did Mr. Spedding or Keasbey& M a t t i s o n have a policy about your attending health-related conferences? 19 20 A There was no w ritte n p o lic y , but any time I 21 a s k e d to a t t e n d I would a t t e n d . * 22 Q Did o t h e r Keasbeyfc M a ttis o n p e r s o n n e l sometimes 23 a t t e n d w ith you? Official reporter company I: 12401 Palermo Drive s il v e r s p r in g . MD. 20904 Castleman.CERT001164 Tel. 572-4324 46 1 A Not the s p e c i f i c meetings th a t I attended. 2 ' Q To whom d i d you d e l i v e r t h e s e n o t e s , i f anyone? 3 C' 4 A Mr. S pedding. Q Anyone e l s e ? 5 A A copy may have gone to Mr. S c h n e i d e r , but I 6 don' t have any r e c a ll and I don't have any note to that effec ; 7 Q Did you d is c u s s t h i s conference w ith anyone e l s e 8 a t Keasb;ey& M a ttis o n ? 9 A No. 10 Q Do you know of anya c t i o n ta ken by Keasbey& 11 * M a t t i s o n a s a d i r e c t r e s u l t o f th e s e n o t e s ? 12 A No. I t was g e n e ra li n f o r m a t i o n , b r in g in g 13 u p - t o - d a t e the knowledge t h a t I a c q u i r e d and g i v i n g t h a t same 14 knowledge t o my s u p e r i o r . 15 . # Q Would you t u r n now t o the document marked 16 Horowitz Exhibit 4 and read the heading and the date. 17 A This i s a copy of a l e t t e r I s e n t to Mr. C h a r l e s 18 D. F r e n c h , r e l a t i n g t o d u s t c o l l e c t i o n on a c u t - o f f saw i n 19 P la n t 8, which was an a s b e s to s cement p l a n t . 20 Q Who i s Mr. F rench? 21 * A He was p l a n t manager of P l a n t 8 a t the tim e . 22 Q Was t h i s l e t t e r w r i t t e n by someone named A. W. 23 Spedding? Of f ic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Castleman.CERT001165 Tel. 572-4324 ^7 1 A I t appears so, yes. 2 ft Do you remember t h a t he wrote i t ? 3 A I h a v e n ' t r ead i t , o r maybe I d id r e a d i t 4 r e c e n t l y , b u t I d o n ' t r e c a l l what i s i n t h e r e e x c e p t t h a t my 5 guess i s i t has something to do with dust c o l l e c t i o n th a t I 6 may have d e s ig n e d o r sh o u ld have d e s ig n e d i n P l a n t 8. 7 ft Do you remember g e t t i n g a copy o f t h i s l e t t e r 8 a t about the time i t was w r i t t e n ? 9 10 11 * 12 13 A Yes. ft Who i s Mr. J . V. Gear? A J . V. Gear? ft Down a t t h e bottom of the p age, on the l e f t . A At one time I thought he was p l a n t manager of 14 P l a n t 8, but t h a t i s the only r e c a l l I have of h i s name. But 15 s i n c e C h a r l e s F rench was p l a n t manager, I am con fu se d a bout 16 that. 17 ft Was he a Keasbey& M a ttis o n employee? 18 A Yes. 19 ft At Ambler? 20 A At Ambler. 21 * ft Who i s Mr. J . M. Gladeck who i s a l s o shown? 22 A Gladeck was an o th e r engineer i n our engineering 23 o f f i c e . He p r o b a b ly had to do w i t h i n s t a l l a t i o n of some of Offic ia l Reporter Company * 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001166 SILVER SPRING. MD. 2090* Tel. 572-4324 48 1 the equipment. 2 Q I would lik e to ask you to read the f i r s t 3 * s e n te n c e of t h a t document. Would you r e a d t h a t a l o u d ? 4 A "You a r e p r o b a b l y aware t h a t i t i s C e n t r a l 5 Engineering D ivision's resp o n sib ility to maintain a healthy 6 and d u st-fre e i n d u s t r ia l atmosphere in a l l K & M p la n ts ." ) 7 Q Was t h a t a p o l i c y of th e C e n t r a l E n g i n e e r i n g 8 Division? 9 A That was a p o lic y -- 1* 10 MR. HILLY: O b j e c t i o n . n" . A , -- we. hoped t o l i v e by, y e s . )/ 12 Q Who s e t t h a t p o l i c y ? 13 A I b e l i e v e Mr. Spedding and Mr. S c h n e i d e r . 14 V.. Q What d id you u n d e r s t a n d by the e x p r e s s i o n d u s t - ) 15 1 f r e e i n d u s t r i a l atm o sp h e r e ? 16 A I t i s not an ab so lu te term. I t i s a term which 17 relates to the threshold lim it or guidelines, to bring i t to 18 below the recommended g u id e lin e s i s a d u s t - f r e e i n d u s t r i a l 19 atmosphere. 20 Q Did you understand th a t the expression d u st-fre el 21 embraced asb esto s dust? . 22 A Yes. 23 Q What was th e p urpose o f having a p o l i c y of Official Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001167 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel 49 1 maintaining a dust-free in d u strial atmosphere? 2 A For health reasons. q Did you d e s ig n the c u t - o f f saw t h a t i s r e f e r r e d 3 to in th is document, the dust collection system for the 4 5 c u t - o f f saw? 6 A May I r e a d i t j u s t t o r e c a l l ? q, Certainly. 7 8 (Pause.) A A p p a r e n t l y , i t was my d e s ig n t h a t th e y were 9 t r y i n g to c o r r e c t , from t h e i r e x i s t i n g d e s ig n t o my d e s ig n , 10 11 .and he was u r g i n g him t o do i t . q I would l i k e you t o now t u r n t o a document t h a t 12 has been marked Horowitz E x h ib it 5- Could you read the 13 heading of th at document. 14 * 15 A I t i s w r i t t e n t o Mr. A. W. S pedding on September 14, I960. Asbestos T extile I n s titu te Meeting, September 8th 16 17 and 9 th , i9 6 0 . Q Have you e v e r seen t h i s document b e f o r e ? 18 A Yes. I wrote i t . 19 q This i s a tru e copy of the document th a t you 20 21 wrote? 22 A Yes. q Can you t e l l us w hat th is docum ent i s a l l about? 23 Of f ic ia l reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive s il v e r s p r in g , m d . 20904 Castleman.CERT001168 Tel. 572-4324 50 1 A May I lo o k a t i t ? 2 I b e l i e v e i t was my f i r s t m e e tin g a s r e p r e s e n t i n f 3 Keasbey& M attlson a t the A ir Hygiene & Manufacturing Committee 4 of th e A sbestos T e x t i l e I n s t i t u t e . I b e l ie v e I asked them 5 what t h e i r e x p e rien ce was w ith compensation claim s due to 6 occupational d ise a se , and I reported to them what they s a id . 7 Q Can you lo o k a t the people l i s t e d a s a t t e n d i n g 8 t h a t m eeting f o r a moment. 9 A Yes. 10 Q Can you t e l l u s who Mr. R. B. Smith was? Do you 11 * remember? 12 A He seemed t o have c h a i r e d most of the m e e ti n g s . 13 He r e p r e s e n t e d R a y b e s t o s -M a n h a t ta n , b u t I d o n ' t r e c a l l . 14 Q Do you know a n y t h i n g a b o u t h i s background? 15 f A About h is background? 16 Q Or t r a i n i n g ? 17 A I was im pressed w ith the f a c t t h a t a l l of the 18 p e o p l e on th e ATI A i r Hygiene Committee were n o t i n d u s t r i a l 19 h y g i e n i s t s , t h a t t h e y were p r o d u c t i o n p e o p l e , and I t h i n k Mr. 20 Smith was one of them. 21 * Q How d id you know th e y were n o t i n d u s t r i a l 22 hygienists? 23 A By t a l k i n g t o them. Of f ic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001169 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 51 they knowledgeable about dust control Q Were engineering? MR. HILLY: Objection. A They were aware of i t . Do you remember a n y t h i n g a b o u t Mr. J . D. M ltc h e l QH. ! remember he was a s s o c i a t e d w i t h H. K. P o r t e r . A and * not too Q A Q A much more. Anything e ls e more? He was a p r o d u c t i o n man. How a b o u t Mr. H. E. Palm? Vaguely t h e same t h i n g . Q Mr. A tkinson? A Vaguely t h e same t h i n g . , f f i r s t name was? Do you remember what h i Q A No. How a b o u t Mr. M ullinson? Q, A I d o n 't remember the name. Do you remember th e E n g l i s h A sb e s to s Company! Q A No. - the second paragraph ^ Would you l o o k a t tne ^ Q . . t sav s "These members responded discussion, where i t say , .. , ,, ovnprience r a t i n g s to my q u e s t i o n s c o n c e r n i n g t h e i of the readily with no,,, and so f o r t h . Did you a t respect to compensation claim , OFFICIAL REPORTER COMPANY H 12401 Palermo Drive s il v e r s p r i n g , m o . .2fistleman.CERT001170 52 1 t h e time know what Keasbey& M a t t i s o n ' s e x p e r i e n c e r a t i n g s 2 were with re sp e c t to compensation claims? 3, A I d i d n ' t know t h e i r r a t i n g s and I d i d n ' t 4 u n d e r s t a n d r a t i n g s . But Mr. C h i l d s made me aware of the 5 k i n d s of c l a i m s we had, and th e y were v e r y few. 6 Q Were t h e r e a s b e s t o s - r e l a t e d c l a i m s a t the time 7 of th is meeting? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Do you remember who th e members were who 10 responded readily to your questions? 11 ^ A Not a l l , b u t some. I d o n ' t remember who. 12 Q Do you remember any o f them? 13 A I d o n 't remember, no. 14 Q Do you remember w h eth e r o r n o t th e y s a i d t h a t 15 * t h e y had e x p e r i e n c e d com pensation c l a i m s a r i s i n g o u t of 16 asbestos exposure? 17 A I th in k they were very cagy about th a t. I 18 d o n ' t r e a l l y know. I was f i s h i n g f o r I n fo r m a tio n . 19 Q Do you see the s e n t e n c e t h a t r e a d s , " I t was the 20 general consensus th at the industry must accept dust control 21 i n o r d e r t o s t a y i n b u s i n e s s " ? 22 A What p a ra g r a p h ? 23 Q Right there in the second paragraph. Of f ic ia l Reporter Com pany ^ 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001171 SILVER SPRING. M D. 209(M Tel. 572-4324 53 1 A Yes, I see th a t. 2 q What d id you mean by t h a t s t a t e m e n t ? A The meaning was t h a t more e x p e n d i t u r e , c a p i t a l 3 4 ex p e n d itu re had to be given to the are a of dust c o n tr o l. 5 Q, Why? 6 A That i t was more of a problem thanthey th ought. q In the next paragraph do you see the second 7 8 s e n t e n c e , where i t s a y s , "Two members claim ed t h a t th e y 9 a t t e m p t to keep c o n c e n t r a t i o n s below 2\ MPPCFA"? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Do youremember which members th o s e were? 12 A No. q In the next paragraph do you see where i t says, 13 "One member r e l a t e d h i s company's e x p e r i e n c e w i t h 14 15 * occupational d isease"? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Do you remember who t h a t member was? 18 A No. q, Would you l o o k a t th e l a s t p a r a g r a p h on t h a t 19 20 page, where i t s a y s , "In summary, a l l members claim ed to 21 have good d u s t c o n t r o l programs w i t h f r e q u e n t d u s t 22 m onitoring." Vo a 23 Offic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER. SPRING. MD. 20904 Castleman.CERT001172 Tel. 372-4324 54 1 q "Pre-employment physicals including large-size 2 X-ray as w e ll a s y e a rly X-ray to compare w ith previous picture 3 rto check p ro g re ssio n ," and so fo rth . 4 A Yes. 5 q Was Keasb-qy& M a t t i s o n one of the members who 6 claimed that? 7 A I was the only r e p r e s e n t a t i v e of Keasbey& 8 M a ttis o n a t t h e m e e t i n g . T h e r e f o r e , I d i d n ' t make th e cla im , 9 so nobody from Keasbey& M a tt i s o n made i t . 10 Q, You d i d n o t make th e claim ? 11 * A No. 12 Q When you say a l l members h e r e , you d i d n o t 13 in clude Keasbey& M attison? A L e t me re v ie w t h a t . ( P a u s e . ) I was r e p o r t i n g 14 15 - ^ o n a l l t h e o t h e r members, n o t on m y s e l f . Q I would lik e to turn to the document th a t has 16 17 been marked H orowitz E x h i b i t 6 . Would you p l e a s e r e a d the 18 heading on t h a t document. 19 A The o r i g i n a l document was made by m y s e l f on 20 October 1 3 t h , i 960 i n Ambler. I t was a memo t o a l l p l a n t 21 ^ m a n a g e r s , and t h e s u b j e c t was r e s p i r a t o r program f o r a l l 22 f i r s t i t was K & M p l a n t s and th e n when we s w itc h e d over to C e r t a i n T e e d , I k e p t th e same memo and j u s t c r o s s e d out K & M 23 O ffic ia l R epo rter C ompany ^ 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001173 SILVER SPRING. MD. 209CM Tel. 572-4324 55 1 and used CPC, to mean C e rta in T e e d P r o d u c t s . 2 q Would you lo o k a t the document t h a t has been 3 . marked as Horowitz E x h ib it 20. 4 A Yes. 5 Q Would you lo ok a t the l a s t page of t h a t document 6 Yes. 7 Q Could you id e n tif y th a t fo r us? 8 A I t ' s the same a s the one I j u s t mentioned, 9 R e sp irato r Program fo r a l l K & M P lants. 10 Q Did you w r i t e t h a t document? 11 * A Yes. 12 Q, And t h i s i s a copy of i t ? 13 A Yes. Q That i s y our s i g n a t u r e down a t th e bottom? 14 15 P A Yes. 16 q Now l e t 's jump back t o No. 6 and see i f I 17 u n d e r s t a n d c o r r e c t l y . The document a t t a c h e d t o E x h i b i t 18 No. 20 i s the o r i g i n a l form and the document t h a t i s marked 19 No. 6 i s a re v is e d form? 20 A I d o n ' t even know i f I made a r e v i s i o n on i t . 21 I may have made -- may I lo o k a t 20 a g a i n ? 22 Q Yes. A A p p a r e n t l y , X made some a d d i t i o n s when X changed 23 Offic ia l Reporter company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001174 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 56 1 i t to the CertainTeed Products Corporation. 2 Q, I s t h a t what CPC s t a n d s f o r ? 3 A CertainTeed Products Corporation; rig h t. 4 I added one s t a t e m e n t t h e r e . Do you see t h a t ? 5 " I n d iv id u a l c lean c o n t a i n e r s must be provided to each 6 employee for storage of h is personal r e s p ir a to r I f a 7 c e n t r a l s to r a g e c a b i n e t I s not a v a i l a b l e . " That was added 8 to the CPC. That w a s n ' t on th e o r i g i n a l . 9 q Did you a l s o add thenote a t the very bottom? 10 11 rf A Yes, I did. Q Do you s e e th e h a n d w r i t i n g n e x t t o the n o te i n 12 which t h e r e a p p e a r t o be d a t e s ? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Can you e x p l a i n th o s e n o t a t i o n s ? 15 # A I t in d ic a t e s the f a c t th a t the a d d itio n and the 16 added s ta te m e n t on th e bottom was p u t i n on t h a t d a t e . 17 Q Which d a t e was t h a t ? 18 A I t was 1967 8-9 -6 7 . 19 Q How a b o u t t h e d a t e below t h a t ? 20 A There i s a l i t t l e d e l t a r e f e r e n c e t o i t on 21 December 6, 1967 and I d o n ' t have any r e c a l l why t h a t was 22 put in. q 23 When t h i s document was f i r s t i s s u e d by you on Of fic ia l Reporter Company ^ 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001175 SILVER SPRING. MD. 2090 Tel. 572-4324 57 1 October 13, I960 in the form t h a t i s a tta c h e d to E x h ib it 20 2 was i t communicated to K & M employees? 3 ,, 4 A I t was communicated to a l l p l a n t managers. Q Do you know what the p l a n t managers did w ith I t ? 5 A T hat was n o t my r e s p o n s i b i l i t y . 6 Q Do you know what i n f a c t th e y d id w i t h i t ? 7 A I d o n ' t know what i n f a c t th e y did w ith i t . 8 Q Look a t paragraph one, i f you w ill: Dust 9 r e s p i r a t o r s must be used by K & M or CPC p e r s o n n e l a t a l l 10 o p e r a t i o n s . Do you know w hether or n o t th e p l a n t managers 11 -` e n f o r c e d t h a t r e q u i r e m e n t ? 12 A Not 100 p ercen t, but they t r i e d . 13 Q The p l a n t managers t r i e d ? 14 15 ,, # A I believe so, yes. q Do you know how they communicated t h i s p o l i c y 16 to the employees, i f they did? 17 A No t o t a l r e c a l l . I b e l i e v e s i g n s . And when I 18 v i s i t e d I asked them about i t and they said they provided 19 r e s p i r a t o r s , n o t everybody was w i l l i n g to use them; t h a t 20 kind of a discussion. 21 Q Look a t p a r a g r a p h No. 5* I f y u w i l l , f o r a 22 * moment. Do you se e where i t sa y s: "O p e r a tin g p e r s o n n e l 23 must be warned t h a t , i f th ey p e r s i s t i n p e r f o rm i n g t h e i r OFFICIAL REPORTER COMPANY 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 2090 Castleman.CERT001176 Tel. 572-4324 58 1 job in dusty area s without the use of r e s p ir a to r s which have 2 been provided, i t w ill be necessary to req u est d is c ip lin a r y 3 #a c tio n through proper channels"? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Do you know w h eth e r t h a t r e q u i r e m e n t was 6 enforced by the p la n t managers? 7 A I have no knowledge th a t i t was. 8 Q Do you know t h a t i t was n o t? 9 A Nor t h a t i t was n o t . 10 Q Did you send t h i s memorandum t o anyone e l s e a t 11 c o r p o r a t e h e a d q u a r t e r s e i t h e r i n i 960 or i n 1967? 12 A T h is memo was made f o r the Loss C o n t r o l 13 Committee and th e y g o t a copy of i t and Mr. Spedding and Mr. 14 S c h n e id e r g o t a copy o f i t . I know t h a t . 15 , # Q Did somebody i n s t r u c t you to w rite t h i s 16 memorandum? 17 A Yes. 18 ft Who? 19 A The Loss C o n tro l Committee. Mr 20 ft Did you d i s c u s s the s u b s t a n c e of t h i s memorandum 21 * w ith any union o f f i c i a l e i t h e r b e f o r e or a f t e r you w rote i t ? 22 A I had no r e s p o n s ib ility nor mandate nor 23 r e q u i r e m e n t t o d i s c u s s w ith anybody b u t my s u p e r v i s o r s . Offic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Castleman.CERT001177 Tel. 572-4324 59 1 Q. Do you know w hether anyone a t Keasbey& M a ttiso n 2 d i s c u s s e d th e s u b s t a n c e of t h i s memorandum w i t h union 3 tofficials? 4 A I have no idea. 5 q Look a t p a r a g r a p h 5> i f y u the very la s t 6 lin e th a t I read, " i t w ill be necessary to request d i s c i p l i n a r y a c t i o n th ro u g h p ro p e r c h a n n e l s . " Do you know 7 8 what those channels were? 9 A I t 's a g e n e r a l s t a t e m e n t t h a t means my 10 u n d e rsta n d in g would be you j u s t c a n ' t do a th in g l i k e t h a t 11 ,, w i t h o u t d i s c u s s i n g i t w i t h w h ate v er p r o t o c o l t h e r e was a t 12 th e p a r t i c u l a r , p l a n t , e i t h e r union or c o n t r a c t o r w hat. So 13 i t ' s a v e r y g e n e r a l s t a t e m e n t . Q Did you understand th a t proper channels 14 15 i n c l u d e d some c o n s u l t a t i o n w i t h th e union? MR. RUBHI: O b j e c t i o n t o th e fo rm . 16 A I t was my u n d e r s t a n d i n g i n the i n d u s t r i a l 17 r e l a t i o n s s i t u a t i o n , y e s . When I w r i t e a t h i n g l i k e t h a t , 18 19 t h a t i s my u n d e r s t a n d i n g of i t . Q Was t h a t g e n e r a l l y t r u e a t a l l th e Keasbeyfc 20 21 t M a t t i s o n p l a n t s ? A I have no knowledge of th a t. 22 q But was i t your understanding t h a t proper 23 Official reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive silver spring, md. 2090 Castleman.CERT001178 Tel. 572-4324 60 1 channels for d isc ip lin e included consultation with the union 2 throughout the Keasbey& M attison system? 3 ' A T h is was my u n d e r s t a n d i n g -- 4 MR. RUBIN: Excuse me. O b j e c t i o n a s t o form. 5 I 'm s o r r y . 6 Q, Go a h e a d . 7 A I t was my f e e l i n g t h a t t h i s i s the way the t h i n g 8 should be done. 9 Q Would you lo o k a t p a r a g r a p h 2, Mr. H orow itz. 10 Who made th e d e c i s i o n t o s p e c i f y th e p a r t i c u l a r r e s p i r a t o r s 11 that are noted there? 12 A I did. 13 Q What did you base t h a t i n s t r u c t i o n on? 14 A The s t a t e of knowledge a t t h a t time was t h a t ' - ' 15 t h i s was the only r e s p i r a t o r a v a ila b le th a t could provide 16 some d e g r e e of p r o t e c t i o n a g a i n s t the h a z a r d o u s m a t e r i a l s 17 t h a t we were a s k i n g them t o use t h i s f o r , which in c l u d e d 18 s i l i c a , cement, mica, ta lc and asbestos d u st. 19 Q How d id you l e a r n what th e s t a t e o f the a r t was? 20 A Through pro fessio n al meetings and discussions 21 * and a s k i n g o t h e r p e o p l e . In g e n e r a l , a t t h a t time t h e r e was 22 no approval agency, but g e n e ra lly through o th e r people in 23 the Industry. s Official Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001179 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel 572-4324 61 1 q Would you p l e a s e t u r n now to the document t h a t 2 has been marked H orow itz E x h i b i t J . Would you r e a d the 3 'heading of that document. 4 A November 22nd, to Mr. G. Barge -- 5 Q, Excuse me. November 22nd? 6 A November 22nd, I960-. 7 Q Y es. Excuse me. Go a h e a d . 8 A To Mr. G. B a rg e . Be: I n d u s t r i a l Hygiene 9 Foundation Meeting, October 27, I960, P ittsburgh, Pennsylvania 10 Q, Would you lo o k t o page 2 of t h i s document. 11 *' A Look where? 12 Q Down a t th e bottom . Do you see t h e name H. B. 13 Childs? 14. 15 * A Yes. Q Do you know w hether or n o t he w rote t h i s 16 memorandum? 17 A Yes, I believe he did. I t ' s h is sig n a tu re. 18 That is , I d o n 't recognize h is signature, but i t is signed 19 H. B. C h i l d s and I assume i t ' s h i s , y e s . 20 Q Do you know how you g o t a copy of t h i s memoran- 21 *dum? 22 A No, I d o n ' t know. I t ' s n o t w r i t t e n t o me, nor 23 am I p r i v y t o a copy, a c c o r d i n g t o the l e t t e r h e r e . But I Official Reporter Company .......... 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001180 SILVER SPRING. MD. Ta. I <7 y . A 'l l A 20904 62 1 g o t a copy somehow or o t h e r . 2 ft You d i d g e t a copy o f t h i s ? 3 * A Apparently, yes. 4 ft Was t h i s a document t h a t was i n your p e r s o n a l 5 f i l e a t Keastey& Mattison? 6 A Yes. 7 ft Did you go to the I n d u s t r i a l Hygiene Foundation 8 Meeting i n P i t t s b u r g h on October 27, I960? 9 A I went to many I n d u s t r i a l Hygiene F oundation 10 meetings. I can't s p e c ific a lly say I went to th is one, but 11 *1 p r o b a b l y d i d , and maybe I went w i t h H. B. C h i l d s . I d o n ' t 12 know. 13 ft ..Who i s H. B. C h i l d s a g a i n ? 14 A As f a r a s I know, he may have been a 15 ^ c o m p tr o lle r , he may have been an i n s u r a n c e r e p . -- n o t r e p . , I 16 b u t took c a re o f the in su ra n ce a re a a t Keasbey& M attiso n , 17 insurance problems, but I don't reca ll his t i t l e . 18 ft He was a Keasbey& M a t t i s o n employee? 19 A He was a Keasbey& M a t t i s o n employee. 20 ft Who was Mr. G. Barge i n i 960? 21 * A I c a n 't remember. 22 ft Was he a Keasbey& M a t t i s o n employee? 23 A He was an e x e c u t i v e of some s o r t , y e s . ' Officia1l240R1 ePpaolerrmtoerDriCveompanyCastleman.CERT001181 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 63 1 Q You d o n ' t know what bran ch of management he was 2 in? 3 ** A No. 4 Q Was i t f i n a n c e ? 5 A I d o n ' t know. 6 Q Would you a g a i n lo o k to page 2. Could you 7 i d e n t i f y f o r us th e p e r s o n s who a r e l i s t e d a s h a v in g r e c e i v e d 8 or destined to receive carbon copies of th is document? I 9 t h i n k you have t o l d us who Mr. Spedding i s . 10 A Yes, Mr. Spedding was th e head of th e E n g in e e rin g 11 Department. 12 Mr. D ougherty, he had some s e m i - e x e c u t i v e r o l e 13 a t t h a t t i m e , b u t I d o n ' t know. The same w i t h Mr. S c r a n to n . 14 15 * Q Do you remember Mr. S c r a n t o n ' s f i r s t name? A No. 16 Q The document marked as Horowitz E x h i b i t 8, would 17 you read us the heading of th a t document. 18 A E x h i b i t 8 i s t o Mr. H. B. C h i l d s on December 1 s t , 19 I960, Dust Control. 20 Q Have you e v e r seen t h i s document b e fo re ? 21 * A Yes. 22 Q Do you remember r e c e i v i n g a copy of t h i s 23 document a t o r a b o u t the time i t was w r i t t e n ? * Of f ic ia1l240R1 ePpaolerrmtoerDriCveo m panyCastleman.CERT001182 S I L V E R S P R I N G . MD. 20904 Tel. 5 7 2 - 4 3 2 4 64 1 A V aguely. The l e t t e r b r i n g s r e c a l l , b u t i f I 2 d i d n ' t have i t i n f r o n t o f me I wouldn' t have remembered. 3 - 4 5 Q Do you remember i t was i n - A I t was i n my f i l e , y e s . Q I t was i n your p e r s o n a l f i l e a t Keasbey& 6 M attison? 7 Yes. 8 Q Look a t page 2, Mr. H orow itz. 9 A Yes. 10 Q Do you r e c o g n i z e Mr. S c r a n t o n ' s s i g n a t u r e ? 11 * A I d o n ' t remember h i s s i g n a t u r e , b u t I am sure 12 i t is h is. I t says original signed. 13 Q Do you know what the c i r c u m s t a n c e s were t h a t le d 14 t o t h e w r i t i n g of t h i s memorandum to Mr. C h i l d s ? 15 ^ A I think i t related to the Loss Control 16 Committee and some o f the o t h e r l e t t e r s we have been d i s 17 cussing. 18 Q, Do you know who r e c e i v e d c o p i e s o f t h i s 19 document, o t h e r than the p e r s o n s who were shown a s r e c e i v i n g 20 carbon copies? 21 * A No, I do n o t . 22 Q Do you know w hethe r t h i s document was ever 23 discussed with union o ffic ia ls? Of f ic ia l reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Castleman.CERT001183 Tel. 572-4324 65 1 A I do not, no. , 2 Q Look a t page 2, p le a s e . Look a t the paragraph 3 numbered 2. Do you know what Mr. S c r a n to n meant by the 4 follow ing sentence: "Poor working cond itio n s can lead to 5 employee d i s s a t i s f a c t i o n and a c tio n by the union, which i s 6 not in the b e s t i n t e r e s t of the company"? 7 MR. RUBIN: O b j e c t i o n a s t o form. 8 Q Go a h e a d , Mr. H orowitz. 9 A I w a sn 't l i s t e n i n g 100 p e rc e n t, but I b eliev e 10 r e c a l l t e l l s me t h a t Mr. S c r a n to n had t o do w i t h i n d u s t r i a l 11 ^ r e l a t i o n s and t h e f a c t t h a t you b r i n g t h i s p ar a g r a p h up 12 r em in d s me of t h a t , b u t a g a i n I c a n ' t be s u r e . 13 Would you a s k t h a t q u e s t i o n a g a i n , p l e a s e ? 14 * 15 Q I w ill ask you a d iffe re n t question. ' you believe a t the time th a t poor working 16 conditions could lead to employee d i s s a t i s f a c t i o n and actio n 17 by the union which i s not i n the b e s t i n t e r e s t of the c 18 MR. RUBIN: O b je c tio n a s t o form. 19 A W e ll, my a r e a o f b e l i e f i s i n th e a r e a of c l e a n 20 and h e a l t h f u l c o n d i t i o n s f o r good worker -- n o t so much 21 ^ r e l a t i o n s a s f o r good worker h e a l t h , and t h a t was my a r e a of 22 i n t e r e s t . The s u b j e c t i v e a t t i t u d e s o f p e o p l e were n o t my 23 area of i n t e r e s t . Offic ia l reporter Company * 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001184 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 66 1 Q Look a t the second sentence of th a t paragraph 2, 2 i f you w i l l , where i t says: "For example, a t S t. Louis the 3 State I n s p e c t o r s were b r o u g h t i n t o our p l a n t t o i n s p e c t th e 4 d u s t c o n d i t i o n s a t the r e q u e s t of th e u n i o n . " Do you see 5 that sentence? 6 A Yes. 7 Q, Do you remember t h a t i n c i d e n t , th e i n c i d e n t 8 re fe rre d to by th a t sentence? 9 A Not sp e c ific a lly , no. 10 Q Do you remember l i k e i n c i d e n t s ? 11 * A In g e n e r a l , th e re were a few i n c i d e n t s where 12 employees complained to the S tate, but i t i s a very 13 general -- I don't remember any s p e c ific -- 14 Q, You d o n ' t remember a t which p l a n t s ? 15 ? A No. 16 Q Do you remember which union or u n io n s r e p r e s e n t e 17 th e employees a t any o f th e Keasbey& M a t t i s o n p l a n t s , Mr. 18 Horowitz? 19 A I do n o t. 20 q Would you lo o k a t p a r a g r a p h numbered 3 . Do you 21 * see th e f i r s t s e n t e n c e ends w ith th e p h r a s e , " i n a r e a s where 22 dust conditions are noticeably bad"? 23 A Yes. O ffic ia l R epo rter Com pany 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001185 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 ' Tel. 572-4324 67 1 Q, Do you remember any i n c i d e n t s when the l a b o r 2 force that is referred to in that paragraph refused to accept 3 employment in a r e a s where du st c o n d itio n s were n o tic e a b ly bad 4 A Np. 5 Q I s t h a t because t h a t was n o t your a r e a of 6 responsibility? 7 MR. HILLY: O b j e c t i o n . 8 A I t ' s only in l e t t e r s th a t I would g et the idea 9 t h a t d u s t c o n t r o l was im p o rta n t t o the management, but no 10 specific. 11 MR. MASON: That w asn' t h i s q u e s t i o n . 12 THE WITNESS: I 'm s o r r y . 13 MR. MASON: Do you want t o a s k your q u e s t i o n 14 again? 15 * A Would you l i k e t o a s k th e q u e s t i o n a g a i n so I 16 would answer s p e c if ic a lly ? 17 Q No; b u t I was going t o a s k you w hether t h e r e 18 were other l e t t e r s which had -- 19 A I f there were, I don't re c a ll. 20 Q -- problems l i k e the one r e f e r r e d to here? 21 * A If there were, I don't re c a ll. 22 Q Do you remember w h e th e r t h e r e were a r e a s a t 23 Ambler where d u s t c o n d i t i o n s were n o t i c e a b l y bad, i n your * O ffic ia l r e po r t e r Com pany 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001186 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 68 1 view? 2 MR. BRUCH: In what time p e r i o d ? 3 ,r Q, At Keasbey& M a ttiso n ? 4 A Perhaps i t needs a l i t t l e explanation. 5 The making of p ip e c o n s t i t u t e s a c u t t i n g away 6 of a c e r t a i n amount of m a t e r i a l . So making d u s t i s p a r t of 7 making p i p e . Dust c o n t r o l i s needed f o r two r e a s o n s . F i r s t , 8 to ta k e the d u s t away so t h a t you can make th e p i p e . 9 O th e r w is e , i t would p i l e up. And a l s o f o r th e r e a s o n of 10 t a k in g away the very f i n e p a r t i c l e s t h a t go i n t o the a i r and 11 * c o u ld c r e a t e a h a z a r d . 12 So to answer your q u e s t i o n , the whole o p e r a t i o n 13 c o n siste d of making d u s t. 14 Q Do you remember p a r t i c u l a r a r e a s t h a t were A 15 ' n o t i c e a b l y bad, t o use Mr. S c r a n t o n ' s p h r a s e ? 16 A There werea re a s which I wouldevaluate 17 o b j e c t i v e l y , r a t h e r th a n s u b j e c t i v e l y , th e way a layman 18 would, by t a k i n g a i r sa m ples; and when I found th o se a r e a s 19 I r e p o r te d t h a t and recommended c o r r e c t i o n . 20 So to answer your q u e s t i o n , t h e r e were some 21 * a r e a s , y e s . 22 Q At Ambler? 23 A Yes. * Of f ic ia1l240R1 ePpaolerrmtoerDriCveo m pa n yCastleman.CERT001187 SILVER SPRING. MD. 2090* T I 69 1 Q While Keasbg/& M a tt i s o n owned th e p l a n t ? 2 A I imagine s o . I c a n ' t be s p e c i f i c . In two 3 "years there must have been a few. I t 's a constant thing. 4 Q I would l i k e you to turn to the document th a t 5 has been marked Horowitz E x h ib it 9 and ask you to read the 6 heading. 7 A Dust C o n t r o l R e p o r t , December 6 , i 960. 8 Q Would you t u r n to the l a s t page, page 4. 9 A Yes. 10 q Do you s e e who i s l i s t e d a s h a v in g w r i t t e n t h i s 11 document? 12 A Dr. S tab ler. 13 Q Have you e v e r seen t h i s document b e f o r e ? 14 A Yes. 15 Q When d id you f i r s t see i t ? 16 A I have no r e c a l l , but I must have seen i t almost 17 immediately a f t e r i t was w r i t t e n . 18 Q Why would you conclude t h a t , Mr. Horowitz? 19 A As a member o f the Loss C o n tro l Committee, d u s t 20 c o n t r o l was my a r e a of i n t e r e s t . 21 * Q Was t h i s document p la ced i n y our p e r s o n a l f i l e 22 a t Keasbey& M attison? 23 A I placed i t there. Offic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001188 SILVER SPRING. MD. 2090a Tel. 372-4324 70 1 Q Who was Dr. S t a b l e r ? 2 A I b e l i e v e he was a c o n s u l t a n t or a m edical 3 ,doctor h ire d by the company, but not an employee of the 4 c ompany. 5 Q Do you know what the c i r c u m s t a n c e s were' t h a t le d 6 to Dr. S t a b l e r ' s w r i t i n g t h i s memorandum? 7 A I b e l i e v e he was asked to w r i t e th e memorandum. 8 Q, Do you remember who asked him to w r i t e i t ? 9 A I b e l i e v e he s a t i n on Loss C o n t r o l Committee 10 m e e ti n g s and was asked t h e n . I c a n ' t be s u r e a b o u t t h a t . 11 * Q Do you know who r e c e i v e d t h i s r e p o r t or c o p ie s 12 of i t ? 13 A I know I r e c e i v e d i t . That i s a l l . 14 Q Would you lo o k a t the f i r s t s e n t e n c e i n the 15 ^second p a r a g r a p h , which s a y s : " A s b e s t o s i s of t h e lung i s a 16 constant fe a r of a l l employees and a problem to management." 17 Do you know what Dr. S t a b l e r ' s b a s i s f o r t h a t s t a t e m e n t was? 18 A I t appears to be a g e n e ra liz a tio n . 19 Q Did you ever d isc u ss th a t m a tte r w ith Dr. 20 Stabler? 21 A Not the f a c t th a t i t ' s a constant fe a r of a l l 22 employees, no. 23 Q Well, what did you d iscu ss w ith Dr. S ta b le r? Offic ia l Reporter Company ^ 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001189 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 372-4324 71 1 A The problem of a s b e s t o s i s . 2 Q Would you t u r n t o page 3 . I would r e f e r you 3 ,to th e h e a d in g marked: C. Program We Need. Would you j u s t 4 take a minute to review the eight points that Dr. Stabler 5 l i s t e d u n d er the h e a d in g Program We Need. 6 A Yes. 7 Q, Do you remember t h a t Dr. S t a b l e r recommended a 8 program along the lin e s set fo rth in th is document? 9 A I d i d n 't remember u n t i l I read i t . 10 Q, Now t h a t you have r ead i t do you r e c a l l t h a t he 11 recommended a program a l o n g t h e s e l i n e s ? 12 A My memory f a i l s me c o m p l e t e l y , b u t I am sure he 13 did i t , yea. 14 Q Do you remember w hether or n o t Keasbqy& M a ttison 15 'a d o p te d a program a lo n g the l i n e s recommended by Dr. S ta b le r? 15 MR. HILLY: I o b j e c t to the form. 17 A Certain p a rts were followed, yes. 18 Q, Can you t e l l us which p a r t s ? 19 A The p a r t s t h a t I had recommended. 20 Q. Which p a r t s were t h o s e , Mr. Horowitz? I d o n ' t 21 mean i n d e t a i l , b u t i f you would j u s t i d e n t i f y them o f f the 22 page h e re , th a t would be h e lp fu l to us. 23 A Extensive dust co n tro l, r e s p ir a to r program, Of fic ia l Reporter Company .fc* 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001190 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 72 1 t h o s e were f o llo w e d t h r o u g h . No. 6, c o o p e r a t i o n w ith o t h e r 2 a s b e s t o s m a n u f a c t u r i n g com panies. An a t t e m p t was made f o r 3 , a s t a n d a r d method o f d u s t c o l l e c t i o n . An a t t e m p t was made 4 f o r a s t a n d a r d method of x - r a y . And No. 8, w i t h the 5 cooperation of other companies. 6 Q, Would you lo o k a t 7b, Mr. H orow itz. 7 A Yes. 8 Q You d i d n ' t l i s t t h a t ? 9 A He d i d . 10 Q, Excuse me? 11 A Yes, he l i s t e d th a t. 12 Q Yes, b u t you d i d n ' t l i s t i t a s one of the th in g s 13 t h a t the company follow ed through on. 14 A I have no knowledge of what they did with the 15 - * union, so I c o u l d n 't respond to t h a t. 16 Q So you d o n ' t know w hether or n o t th e company 17 f o llo w e d th ro u g h on h i s recommendation No. 7? 18 A Not No. 1 , no. 19 Q I would lik e you to turn to the document th a t 20 has been marked Horowitz E x h ib it 10. 21 * A Do you want me t o r e a d i t ? 22 * 23 Q Yes, ju s t the heading. A December 16, i 960. To Mr. A. W. Spedding. O f f ic ia l Reporter Company ..fc- 12401 Palermo Drive s i l v e r s p r i n g , m d 2090a Castleman.CERT001191 Tel. 572-4324 73 1 A s b e s t o s T e x t i l e I n s t i t u t e M e e t in g , D e c e m b e r 1 5 , i 960. 2 Q, Did you ev er see t h i s document b efo re? 3 A Yes. 4 Q. Who w rote i t ? 5 A I wrote i t . 6 Q This i s a copy of a document you wrote? 7 A Yes. 8 Q, Would you look a t the p e r s o n s l i s t e d a s a t t e n d i n g 9 Do you remember Mr. D. T. A u s tin ? 10 A Vaguely a s a member of U. S. Rubber Company. 11 * Q How a b o u t Mr. Hans W a lte r? 12 A Yes, I remember him. 13 Q What was h i s p o s i t i o n a t AmericanA sb e s to s . 14 Textile Corporation? 15 * A I b e l i e v e he was e i t h e r a d e s ig n e n g i n e e r o r a 16 p ro d u c tio n man. 17 Q Can you r e a d th e h a n d w r i t i n g on the top r i g h t - 18 hand in the margin of th is document? 19 A Yes. Seme of i t i s d e l e t e d , b u t I can re a d some 20 of i t , yes. 21 Q Who w ro te t h a t ? 22 A T hat i s my h a n d w r i t i n g . 23 Q Can you t e l l us what i t s a y s ? I am c u r i o u s . Offic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 2090a Castleman.CERT001192 Tel. 572-4324 74 1 A U se b lu e so m eth in g in s te a d o f p h o to c o p ie s . 2 B lu e p r in t , i t m ust be b lu e p r in t . B lu e p r in t o f o n io n sk in 3 ^copy w here a v a ila b le . L ooks b e tte r and i s ch eap er and 4 i d e n t i f i e s E n g in e e r in g D ep a rtm en t. S ave m oney i f o th e r 5 d ep a rtm en ts do th e sam e. 6 I h ave no id e a why i t w as w r itte n . \ 7 Q I s t h a t j u s t c o m m e n d a b l e h o u s e k e e p i n g ? 8 A P r o b a b ly . One o f my f u n c t i o n s w as t o s a v e m oney 9 Q Do y o u rem em ber i f a n y o n e e l s e from K easbey& 10 M a ttiso n a tte n d e d t h is m ee tin g in D ecem ber o f I960? 11 A I d o n 't th in k so . I w o u ld h a v e p u t i t down i f 12 th ey d id . Q Who g e n e r a l l y g o t y o u r r e p o r t s o f th e m in u t e s o f 13 14 th e ATI m ee tin g s th a t you a tten d ed ? 15 _ * a I w o u ld r e p o r t i t to M r. S p e d d in g a n d he w ou ld 16 m ake a d e c i s i o n w h e th e r t o sen d i t up t o M r. S c h n e id e r ; b u t 17 t h a t i s t h e o n l y k n o w l e d g e I h a v e o f a n y b o d y g e t t i n g t h e 18 rep o rt. 19 Q D id h e fro m tim e t o tim e se n d c o p ie s up t o M r. 20 S ch n eid er? 21 A I b e lie v e he d id . 22 Q D id h e t e l l you t h a t he d id ? A I w o u l d Borne t i m e s s e e a c o p y t h a t h e d i d , w i t h 23 .. .IN OFFICIAL Rep o r ter Co m p a n y 12401 Palermo Drive silver spring. MD. 2090, Castleman.CERT001193 Tel. 572-4324 75 1 a n ote th a t he d id . 2 q L ook a t th e l a s t p a ra g ra p h on p a g e 1 , i f yo u 3 . w i l l , M r. H o r o w itz . Do you s e e w here i t sa y s: " It was 4 i n t e r e s t i n g t o d i s c o v e r t h a t J-M u s e s tw o la r g e ro o m s to 5 c o l l e c t th e d u s t c r e a t e d a t som e o f t h e ir c a r d s" ? 6 A Y es. 7 Q Why w a s t h a t i n t e r e s t i n g ? 8 a Tt- i n -tnt-.prfistine: f o r many r e a s o n s . F i r s t of 9 a l l , i t i s a r e l a t i v e l y in e x p e n siv e way to c o l l e c t d u s t. I t 10 w as a m eth od u se d i n th e c o t t o n in d u s t r y f o r t h a t sam e ty p e 11 o f o p e r a t io n . And i t w as i n t e r e s t i n g to me b e c a u s e I 12 c o n s id e r e d i t a r e l a t i v e l y p o o r way to c o l l e c t d u s t , so I 13 pointed i t out a s not a method to use. Q Keasbey& M attison did not use t h is method? 14 ^ * 15 A No, I d id n 't see i t a t any o f th e ir o p era tio n s. 16 I t w a s s o r t o f a c o m m o n m e t h o d u s e d i n t e x t i l e m i l l s , b u t w e 17 o n l y h a d o n e t e x t i l e m i l l , a n d w e d i d n ' t u s e t h a t m e t h o d . 18 Q H ow d id i t compare to the method t h a t Keasbey& 19 Mattison used? 20 A The d e s ig n o f th e m ethod th e y u sed w as a 21 b e t t e r m eth o d , m uch b e t t e r . 22 " 23 Q Who i s " th ey " ? A T h a t Keasbey& M a ttiso n used was a b e t t e r method. O ffic ia l R epo rter com pany 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Castleman.CERT001194 Tel. 372-4324 76 1 Q Would you t u r n to page 2. 2 A Yes. 3 Do you se e th e l a s t p a r a g r a p h which i s headed, 4 T e c h n ic a l P aper on Dust C o n tro l in A sb esto s I n d u s t r i e s ? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Do you se e th e name Dr. Shaw r i g h t i n th e middle 7 of that paragraph? 8 A Yes, I do. 9 Q Who i s Dr. Shaw? 10 A I b e l i e v e he worked w i t h ATI and was a 11 c o n s u l t a n t s o m e tin e s t o Keasbey& Matt i s o n . 12 Q Do you remember what h i s f i r s t name was? 13 A No. 14 Q What kind of a c o n s u l t a n t ? 15 _ * A Mostly i n p r o d u c t i o n m ethods, how t o make 16 a s b e s t o s t e x t i l e p r o d u c t s . He was a r e s e a r c h -- 17 Q I would now l i k e t o a s k you t o t u r n t o the 18 document t h a t has been marked Horowitz E x h i b i t 11 and a s k 19 you i f you would read the heading of th a t document. 20 A To Mr. A. W. S ped d in g . March 9# 1 9 6 l . A sbestos 21 T e x t i l e I n s t i t u t e M e eting, A ir Hygiene & M a nufa cturing 22 Committee, March 2nd and 3 rd , 1961. 23 Q Have you seen t h i s document b e f o r e ? Offic ia l Reporter com pany -fc 12401 Palermo Drive ^ silver spring, md. 2090, Castleman.CERT001195 TeL 572-4324 77 1 A Yes, I have. 2 Q Did you w rite i t ? 3 A I wrote i t . 4 Q This i s a copy of the document you wrote? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Do you remember w h eth e r anyone e l s e went to t h i s 7 m e etin g w ith you, Mr. H orow itz, anyone from Keasbey& M a t t l s o n ' 1 8 A I d o n 't believe anyone did. 9 Q Dr. S t a b l e r d i d n ' t go to t h i s meeting with you, 10 did he? 11 A No. 12 Q I would l i k e you to t u r n to th e document t h a t ha> 13 been marked H orowitz E x h i b i t 12. Would you r e a d the heading 14 of th a t. 15 ' A March 14, 1961. Dr. A. C. S t a b l e r . S u b j e c t : 16 Environmental H ealth Survey by Air Hygiene and Manufacturing 17 Committee of Asbestos T e x tile I n s t i t u t e (ATI). 18 Q Have you seen t h i s document b e f o r e ? 19 A Yes, I have. 20 Q I s i t a copy of a document you wrote? 21 A Yes, i t I s . 22 Q, What were the c i r c u m s t a n c e s u nder which you 23 prepared th is document? Offic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Castleman.CERT001196 Tel. 372-4324 78 1 A I wrote i t to inform Dr. S tabler of the medical 2 in fo rm atio n t h a t I obtained from a d isc u s s io n given by Dr. 3 iKenneth Smith of Johns-M anville. 4 Q Was Dr. S t a b l e r a t t h a t time a c o n s u l t a n t to 5 Keasbey& M attison? 6 A I b elie v e he was. 7 Q Do you know who e l s e g o t a copy of t h i s document; 8 A W e ll, the second page shows Mr. Speddlng and Mr. 9 Childs. 10 Q Do you know w hether anyone e l s e g o t a copy? 11 A I have no idea. 12 Q I would l i k e to ask you to look a t the l a s t 13 p a r a g r a p h on page 1. Would you j u s t ta k e a q u i c k lo o k a t 14 t h a t . My q u e s t i o n i s t h i s , Mr. Horowitz: Bid Keasbey& 15 ^ ^M attison m aintain any kind of f i l e or c o lle c tio n of books or 16 a r t i c l e s on i n d u s t r i a l hygiene or o c c u p a tio n a l d is e a s e ? 17 A None o t h e r than what I c o l l e c t e d . 18 Q Did you c o l l e c t books and a r t i c l e s from time to 19 time on th e s e s u b j e c t s ? 20 A Mostly a b s tra c ts . 21 * Q Where d id you g e t your a b s t r a c t s ? 22 A The I n d u s t r i a l H ealth Foundation in P itts b u r g h 23 would provide a b s tr a c ts , in general. Offic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER S P R I N G . M D . 20904 Castleman.CERT001197 Tel. 5 7 2 - 4 3 2 4 79 1 Q A bstracts of what? 2 A Of a l l s u b j e c t s r e l a t i n g to i n d u s t r i a l hygiene 3 , and toxicology. 4 Q Did th a t in c lu d e -- 5 A World-wide publications. 6 Q How o f t e n d id th o se a b s t r a c t s a r r i v e on your * 7 desk? 8 A Well, p resen tly I get i t once a month. I d o n 't 9 r e c a l l how o f t e n i t was t h e n . 10 Q Do you have any r e a s o n t o b e l i e v e t h a t i t was 11 .. l e s s f r e q u e n t l y than once a month when you were w ith Keasbey& 12 Mattison? 13 A I t might have been q u a rte rly . I don't r e c a ll. 14 Keasbey& M a t t i s o n and C e rta in T e e d were a member o f the 15 ^ P i t t s b u r g h -- 16 Q The I n d u s t r i a l H e a lth Foundation? 17 A The I n d u s t r i a l H e a lth F oundation. 18 Q Did you re g u la rly get a r t i c l e s th a t d e a lt with 19 asbestos? 20 A I would c u ll i t from the l i t e r a t u r e wherever I 21 * g o t I t . 22 Q Did you g e t some a r t i c l e s d e a l i n g w i t h a s b e s t o s 23 from the I n d u s tr ia l Health Foundation, or a b s tra c ts of Offic ia l reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 2090 Castleman.CERT001198 Tel. 572-4324 80 1 articles? 2 A Probably, yes. 3 * Q Did you get a b s t r a c t s from any other source? 4 A I asked an i n s u r a n c e company what knowledge they 5 h a d . When the problem of c a n c e r came up, I t r i e d t o g e t 6 more I n f o r m a t io n and I g o t a few a b s t r a c t s from them. 7 Q Do you remember who th e i n s u r a n c e company was 8 at the time? 9 A American M utual, the one I work f o r now. 10 Q Did th e y g i v e you a d d i t i o n a l i n f o r m a t i o n on -- 11 ' A A few a b s t r a c t s . They gave me p h o t o c o p i e s of 12 p u b l i s h e d r e f e r e n c e s on t h e s u b j e c t , a r t i c l e s o r p a p e r s t h a t 13 had been w r i tte n in England and South A fric a . 14 Q That dealt with asbestos? 15 A That dealt with asbestos -- w ell, lung cancer 16 was a q u e s t i o n a t the tim e. 17 Q So the a b s t r a c t s d e a l t w ith the p o t e n t i a l 18 r e la tio n s h ip between asb esto s and lung cancer? 19 MR. HILLY: O b j e c t i o n . 20 A Right. 21 * Q I would l i k e you t o t u r n t o H orow itz E x h i b i t 13 22 and read the heading of th a t. 23 A J u n e 12, 19 6 1. To Mr. A. W. S ped d in g . A sbestos Of f ic ia l Reporter Co m pany 12401 Palermo Drive silver spring, md. 20904 Tel. 372-4324 Castleman.CERT001199 81 1 T e x tile I n s t i t u t e Meeting, Air Hygiene & Manufacturing 2 Committee, June 8th and 9th, 1961. 3 Q Have you e v e r seen t h i s document? 4 A Yes. 5 Q, I s i t a copyof a document youp r e p a r e d ? 6 A Yes. 7 Q, This i s the meeting th a t Dr. S ta b le r went with 8 you, I gather? 9 A Yes,becauseDr. Smith was going to t a l k , I 10 believe. 11 Q Did you t e l l Dr. S t a b l e r i n advance t h a t Dr. 12 Smith was coming to ta lk ? 13 A That was the r e a s o n we i n v i t e d him. 14 Q Was i t because Dr. Smith was going to t a l k about 15 the r e la tio n s h i p between asb esto s and cancer th a t you 16 p a rtic u la rly asked Dr. Stabler to attend? 17 MR. HILLY: O b j e c t i o n . 18 MR. BRUCH: O b j e c t i o n . 19 A I sta te here, in a paragraph heading, Asbestos 20 and Cancer, underlined. 21 Q Asbestosis and Cancer? 22 A A s b e s t o s i s and C ancer. I `m s o r r y . "A meeting 23 of a l l ATI com m ittees was c a l l e d on Ju n e 8, 1961, s p e c i f i c a l l ; Offic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001200 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 372-4324 82 1 t o h e a r Dr. Kenneth Smith of J o h n s - M a n v i l l e r e p o r t on t h i s 2 s u b j e c t which i s of th e utm o st im p o r ta n c e to a l l member 3 companies. His report follow s." 4 So t h a t answers your q u e s tio n . 5 Q Was i t b e c a u se you knew th e purpose of the 6 meeting th a t you asked Dr. S ta b le r s p e c if ic a lly to attend? 7 A A ll committees -- t h i s was one of the few times 8 th a t i t wasn't j u s t the Air Hygiene & Manufacturing Committee 9 m e e t i n g , b u t we i n v i t e d o t h e r committee members t o v i s i t and 10 lis te n to Dr. Smith. 11 : Q Would you go back to p a r a g r a p h 1. Do you see 12 th e s e n te n c e t h a t s a y s : "Each member s u b m itte d i t s d u s t 13 c o u n t i n g t e c h n iq u e and e x i s t i n g m e d ic a l program"? Do you see 14 that sentence? 15 # A Yes. 16 Q, Did KeasbeyfcM a t t i s o n submit -- 17 A Yes. 18 Q Keasbey& M a ttiso n subm itted i t s d u s t counting 19 technique and e x istin g medical program? 20 A Yes, we d i d . 21 * q Did you review the d u s t counting techniques and 22 e x i s t i n g m edical programs subm itted to the group by o th e r 23 members? Offic ia l reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Castleman.CERT001201 Tel. 572-4324 83 1 A Yes. 2 Q Were Keasbey& M a t t i s o n ' s t e c h n i q u e s and programs 3 comparable to those of the o th er members? 4 A Yes. They were the accepted method of the time. 5 Q Did Dr. Smith ta lk about any p a r t i c u l a r forms 6 of cancer in h is ta lk , do you r e c a ll? 7 A I d o n 't r e c a l l the meeting. I have no r e c a ll 8 except for what i s in th is rep o rt. 9 Q Do you know why you l a b e l e d t h i s document 10 c o n f i d e n t i a l i n s e n d in g i t on to Mr. Spedding? 11 *' A A l l my r e p o r t s t o Mr. Spedding were marked 12 confidential. . 13 Q W e ll, t h a t i s what i n t r i g u e d me, Mr. H orow itz. 14 I f you w i l l look back to E x h ib it No. 11, which i s a l s o a 15 ^ re p o rt of m inutes, i t w a sn 't labeled c o n f id e n tia l, and I 16 wondered what happened. 17 A I am s u r e n o t a l l o f them. R e a l l y what I meant 18 was t h a t my r e p o r t s t o him were only to him. P robably 19 somewhere a l o n g th e l i n e somebody s a i d mark them c o n f i d e n t i a l , 20 I have no i d e a . I d o n ' t know w hether I d i d t h i s on my own 21 *or w h eth e r th e y t o l d me. I have no i d e a a t a l l . 22 Q Would you now t u r n to E x h i b i t No. 14. 23 A Right. Offic ia l Reporter Company -'"fc 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001202 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 8^ 1 Q . Would you p l e a s e re a d the h e a d in g of t h a t documer 2 A September 12, 1961. Mr. A. W. Spedding. 3 ^Subject: Asbestos T ex tile I n s t i t u t e Meeting, Air Hygiene & 4 Manufacturing Committee, September 7 and 8, 1961. 5 Q Have you e v e r seen t h i s document b e f o r e ? 6 A Yes, I have. 7 Q, Is i t a copy of a document you prepared? 8 A Yes. 9 Q ' Do you r e c a l l w hethe r anyone e l s e from Keasbey& 10 Mattison attended th is meeting? 11 . A Not a t th is meeting. 12 Q Would you p l e a s e t u r n t o page 2, th e very top 13 l i n e . Do you see where i t s a y s , "Mr. R. R. P o r t e r o b j e c t e d 14 to this proposal"? 15 1* A Yes. 16 Q Do you remember who Mr. R. R. P o r t e r was? 17 A He was th e p r e s i d e n t of Keasbey& M a t t i s o n . 18 Q So he a tten d e d t h i s meeting? 19 A No. 20 Q When d id he o b j e c t t o t h i s p r o p o s a l ? 21 j A When I recommended t h a t we J o i n w i t h th e o t h e r 22 companies and a s k the U. S. P u b lic H e a l t h S e r v i c e t o make 23 th is study. o ffic ia l Reporter Company * 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001203 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 85 1 Q Do you remember when you made t h a t recommendation 2 to Mr. P o r t e r ? 3 A Probably as a r e s u lt of a previous meeting. I 4 d o n ' t know i f I d id i t d i r e c t l y to him, b u t I did i t to -- 5 was i t i n my p r e v i o u s -- maybe t h e r e were some m in u t e s of 6 another meeting th at you d o n 't have or I d id n 't have. 7. Q But you do know t h a t your recommendation was 8 communicated t o Mr. P o r t e r ? 9 A Apparently, yes. 10. Q How d id you l e a r n t h a t he o b j e c t e d t o th e p r o 11 p o s a l ? 12 A I . t h i n k h i s o b j e c t i o n was given t o me f o r 13 purposes of resp o n d in g , to convince him t h a t th e r e was a 14 need for th is kind of study. 15 Q, Did you convince him th e re was a need? 16 A He had a p a r t i c u l a r r e a s o n f o r o b j e c t i n g to i t 17 and I d o n 't r e c a l l what the p a r tic u la r reason was. I 18 responded t o t h a t and I t h i n k he e v e n t u a l l y ag re e d t h a t we 19 should cooperate. 20 Q, Thank you. Would you now t u r n to the document 21 x t h a t has been marked Horowitz E x h i b i t No. 15 and would you 22 read the heading of th a t document to us. 23 A T h is one was a p p a r e n t l y p r i v a t e and c o n f i d e n t i a l , Offic ia l reporter Company '% '2401 Palermo. Drive Castleman.CERT001204 CR SPRING. MD. 20904 d. 572-4324 86 1 Q Yes. 2 A To Loss C o n t r o l Committee. The d a t e was 3 October 9, 1961. Subject: Analysis of Environmental 4 C o n d i tio n s i n Ambler P l a n t s From the I n d u s t r i a l Hygiene 5 I b in t of View R e f e r r in g to Recent X -rays. 6 Q Have you e v e r seen t h i s document b e f o r e ? 7 A I f I wrote i t I did, yes. 8 Q Is this -- 9 A Yes, th is I did. 10 Q This i s a copy of a document you wrote? 11 A Yes. 12 Q T e l l us a b o u t th e Loss C o n t r o l Committee, Mr. 13 H o r o w it z . Was t h a t a Keasbey& M a tt i s o n committee? 14 A Yes. 15 4 Q Who was on i t and what d id i t do? 16 A I only r e c a l l Mr. C h i l d s , m y s e l f , Mr. Spedding 17 and Mr. S c h n e id e r . 18 Q Was Dr. S t a b l e r on i t ? 19 A I th in k he was. 20 Q, How a b o u t Mr. D. W. Keach, who i s r e f e r r e d to 21 * on page 2 a s someone g e t t i n g a copy of t h i s document? 22 A I think he was. 23 Q. Who was Mr. D. W. Keach? Offic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Castleman.CERT001205 Tel. 572-4324 87 1 A E ith er in in d u s tria l re la tio n s or -- I think 2 i n d u s t r i a l r e l a t i o n s . I am n o t s u r e . 3 Q What was th e purpose of the Loss C o n tro l Comm 4 A I b e l i e v e a d e c i s i o n was made a f t e r Dr. Knox1 s 5 v i s i t to form a Loss Control Committee to respond to his 6 suggestion. 7 Q Would you l o o k a t the f i r s t p a r a g r a p h , i n the 8 f i r s t s e n t e n c e , where i t s a y s , "X-rays were made of 653 9 Keasbey& M a ttis o n em ployees i n May 1 961." Do you know where 10 those employees were lo cated , a t what plants? 11 " A No, I d o n ' t . I probably was j u s t reviewing what 12 Dr. K i r s h n e r had s u b m i t t e d . I do n o t know. 13 Q Who i s Dr. J . J . K ir s h n e r ? 14 15 A I don't recall. Q Did you ever meet him? 16 A I d o n 't r e c a l l meeting him, no. 17 Q Was he an employee of Keasbey & M a ttiso n ? 18 A I d o n 't b elie v e he was, no. 19 20 21 * Q Was he a c o n s u l t a n t ? A Probably. Q You d o n ' t know a n y t h i n g a b o u t th e arrangem ent 22 between Keasbey & M attison and Dr. Kirshner? 23 A No, I have no r e c a l l about Dr. K ir s h n e r . Of f ic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001206 SILVER SPRING. MD. 2090a Tel. 372-4324 88 1 Q. 2 you? You w o u ld n ' t know where th o se x - r a y s a r e , would 3 . 4 A No. Q Do you know what happened t o them? 5 A No. I had nothing to do with x - r a y s . 6 Q Would you look a t page 2. I changed my mind, Mr. 7 H o r o w i t z . Would you move on to th e document t h a t h a s been 8 m ark ed H o r o w itz E x h i b i t N o . l 6 . W ould y o u r e a d t h e t i t l e o f 9 th a t. . 10 A Mr. A. W. S pedding. December 13* 1961. 11 Subject: A s b e s t o s T e x t i l e I n s t i t u t e M eeting, A i r Hygiene and 12 M a n u f a c t u r i n g Committee, December 7 and 8, 1961. 13 Q Have you e v e r seen t h i s document b e f o r e ? 14 A Yes, I have. 15 # Q Did you w rite i t ? 15 A Yes, I did. 17 Q I t b e a r s y our s i g n a t u r e on page 2? 18 A Yes, i t does. 19 Q Do you s e e the h a n d w r i t i n g , th e two s e t s of 20 h a n d w r i t i n g on th e top of the page, page 1? 21 * * 22 23 A Yes. Q Is that your handwriting? A T hat i s a s i g n a t u r e of Mr. S c h n e i d e r . Offic ia l reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive wr-, ^ Castleman.CERT001207 SILVER SPRING. MD. 2090 Tel. 572-4324 89 1 Q. Could you read the handwriting in the left-hand 2 corner? 3 A That i s a n o te from Mr. Spedding to Mr. 4 Schneider, "For your in t e r e s t - please r e tu rn ." 5 Q How a b o u t the h a n d w r i t i n g r i g h t i n the middle 6 of the top of the page? 7 A Something t o Mr. Spedding. "I have n o te d " 8 something. I c a n 't read the re s t. 9 Q And i s i t s ig n e d ? 10 A I t i s i n i t i a l e d by RAS, Mr. S c h n e i d e r , on 11 .December 1 4 t h , a day l a t e r . 12 Q Would you look t w o - t h i r d s of the way down the 13 page, Mr. H orow itz, p a r a g r a p h No. 1. 14 Did th e U. S. P u b l i c H e a lth S e r v i c e e v e r v i s i t 15 . ita Keasbey & M attison p la n t? 16 A I am h e s i t a t i n g because I d o n ' t know w hether i t 17 was Keasbey & M a t t i s o n o r C e r t a i n T e e d . I b e l i e v e i t was 18 CertainTeed they v isited . 19 Q Do you know which C e rta in T e e d p l a n t they 20 v isited , or plants? 21 , A Yes. They v i s i t e d -- and I was w ith them a l l 22 *t h e time they were t h e r e -- f o r a s tu d y on exposure t o 23 a s b e s t o s , c o n c e n tra tio n in the a i r , a s well a s coming up with Offic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 209CH Castleman.CERT001208 Tel. 372-4324 91 1 Q And th e y s p e n t a week a t each p l a n t ? 2 A Yes. 3 , Q. Did th e y do b a s i c a l l y th e same t a s k s a t each of 4 the CertainTeed plants that they visited? 5 A Yes, they did. 6 Q Can you t e l l us i n more d e t a i l what they d id ? 7 A One of t h e i r team would be t a k i n g work h i s t o r i e s 8 which probably included smoking h a b i ts , p a st medical h is to r y . 9 These were a l l , by th e way -- w h a t 's the word to use? They 10 were p e r s o n a l , nobody saw them b u t th e U. S. P u b lic H ea lth 11 Service. 12 Q, P r i v i l e g e d and c o n f i d e n t i a l ? 13 A Privileged and con fid en tial between the 14 r e s p o n d e n t , the employee and the U. S. P u b l i c H e a l t h S e r v i c e . 15 .- ^ B u t I saw th e b l a n k . I knew what kind of q u e s t i o n s they 16 were asking, r e la tiv e to h isto ry of health and personal 17 h a b its and l i f e s ty le and s tu f f lik e th a t. 18 Then a n o t h e r s e t of the team, two or th r e e 19 o th e r fellow s would be going out in to the p la n t with a tra y 20 on w heels, of v a r io u s methods of sim u lta n eo u sly counting 21 d u s t o r sam p lin g th e a i r ; and the samples would be b ro u g h t 22 bac k t o a n o t h e r member o f the team, who would a n a l y z e the 23 m a t e r i a l by v a r i o u s methods, new methods a s w e l l a s old Offic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001209 ' SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 90 1 a method, a more a c c e p ta b le method of counting the d u s t. 2 They v i s i t e d f o r one week a t a time our S t . Louis p l a n t , our 3 Santa Clara p la n t, and I d o n 't r e c a ll any o th ers. 4 Q Who was p r e s e n t and a c t i v e l y working on the 5 program? You s a i d you were t h e r e ? 6 A I was th e re . 7 Q Who was t h e r e from the P u b lic H e a l t h S e r v i c e ? 8 A The head of the team was Jerem iah Lynch, from 9 th e U. S. P u b l i c H e a l t h S e r v i c e . 10 Q, Did he have people w ith him? 11 . A Yes. 12 Q Who e l s e p a r t i c i p a t e d a t each p l a n t ? 13 A At e a c h p l a n t ? You mean of t h i s team? 14 Q Yes, from th e C e rta in T e e d p l a n t . You s a i d you 15 ( p a r t i c i p a t e d f o r C e r t a i n T e e d . 16 A Who e l s e p a r t i c i p a t e d a t any one p a r t i c u l a r 17 plant? 18 Q Correct; participatedfor CertainTeed. 19 A The management gave f u l l c o o p e r a t i o n . The 20 U. S. P u b l i c H e a l t h S e r v i c e , i n o r d e r to e n t e r th e p l a n t , 21 * had t o g e t p e r m i s s i o n from the s t a t e , w h ate v er s t a t e 22 o r g a n i z a t i o n c o v e r e d t h i s a s p e c t , and i n S a n ta C l a r a we had 23 a s t a t e man accompany us a t l e a s t p a r t of th e ti m e . Offic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001210 : SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 92 1 methods. 2 Q What p e r c e n t a g e of the h o u r l y r a t e d employees 3 ^did the Public H ealth Service interview ? 4 A I th o u g h t i t was 100 p e r c e n t , b u t I d o n ' t know. 5 Q Do you know what was s a i d to the employees by 6 CertainTeed management ab o u t the scope and purpose of these 7 discussions? 8 A I b e l i e v e th e y p o s te d a n o t i c e on th e board 9 p r io r to the v i s i t , to ld them -- and I think they even 10 d i s c u s s e d i t w i t h th e u n i o n . Again, X am n o t p r i v i l e g e d to 11 - t h i s i n f o r m a t i o n . My i m p r e s s i o n was th ey t o l d the union th e y 12 were coming, th e government was making a s tu d y i n t h i s f i e l d 13 and t h a t we wanted t o c o o p e r a t e w ith them a s much a s we could, 14 q Did somebody t e l l you t h a t the union was con- 15 . ^ s u i t e d ? 16 A My i m p r e s s i o n was t h a t the U. S. P u b lic H e a lth 17 S erv ice even re q u e ste d t h a t i t be done t h a t way. 18 Q Were t h e r e any w r i t t e n -- 19 A And I know i n S t . Louis i t was, y e s . 20 Q Were t h e r e any w r i t t e n i n s t r u c t i o n s or r e q u e s t s 21 * from the P ublic H ea lth S e r v ic e t h a t you put i n t o your 22 personal file? 23 A No. Offic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001211 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 93 1 q . Now would you lo o k a t the l a s t p a r a g r a p h b e f o r e 2 th e f i n a l h e a d in g on page 2. I would l i k e you t o lo o k a t the 3 yery la s t sentence. 4 A Yes. 5 Q Do you see a r e f e r e n c e t o Dr. I . J . S e l i k o f f ? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Do you see a r e f e r e n c e t o th e f a c t t h a t he 8 apparently requested permission to v is it the Meredith plant 9 of Keasbey & Mattison? 10 A Yes. 11 / q Was p e r m i s s i o n g r a n te d ? 12 A When I r e r e a d t h i s , i t was th e f i r s t r e c a l l t h a t 13 I had t h a t he had made i t . So I d o n ' t t h i n k i t was, b u t I 14 d o n 't know. 15 ' q you d o n ' t know w hether o r n o t he -- 16 A I d o n ' t know a c t u a l l y w h e th e r o r n o t , no. Q You d o n ' t know w hether or n o t he e v e r v i s i t e d 17 18 the Meredith plant? 19 A No. I d i d n ' t know S e l i k o f f by ' 6 l . I f I had 20 known him a s I know him now, I would p r o b a b ly have b e t t e r 21 r e c a ll. B u t I d o n ' t r e c a l l t h i s i n c i d e n t . 22 * 23 MR. BEERS: Off the r e c o r d . (D iscussion o ff the r e c o r d , followed by luncheon recess taken a t 1:10 p.m.) OFFICIAL REPORTER COMPANY "401 Palcrmo Drive Castleman.CERT001212 : SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 94 1 AFTERNOON SE SSIO N 2 2:35 P.*m. 3 BY MR. BEERS: Q, Mr. 4 H o r o w i t z , c o u l d y o u p l e a s e f i s h o u t t h e 17 d o c u m e n t t h a t h a s b e e n m a r k e d H o r o w i t z E x h i b i t and w ould 5 6 you read th e h ea d in g o f th a t d ocum ent. A Meeting of Loss Control Committee, January 8, 7 8 1962, Meeting No. 4. 9 Q. Have you e v e r seen t h i s document b e f o r e ? 10 A Yes. 11 , 12 q Do you know who p r e p a r e d i t ? A I c a n 't be su re. I d o n 't recognize the i n i t i a l s 13 a t the end of the l e t t e r . q Can you make out th e i n i t i a l s , Mr. Horowitz? 14 c 15 a Not r e a l l y . I t ' s H -s o m e th i n g - J . I c a n ' t make 16 i t out. Q Would you ta k e a n o t h e r l o o k and t e l l us w hether 17 18 you t h i n k i t i s HBC, s t a n d i n g f o r Mr. C h i l d s ? 19 MR. BRUCH: O b j e c t i o n . 20 MR. RUBIN: O b j e c t i o n . # 21 22 A I wondered about th a t, but I c a n 't Q Was t h i s a document t h a t was p la c e d a t some time 23 in your personal f i l e by you? OFFICIAL REPORTER COMPANY 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 2090a Castleman.CERT001213 Tel. 572-4324 95 1 A Yes. 2 Q Do you remember r e c e i v i n g t h i s document from 3 whoever took n o te s of the meeting? 4 A No. 5 Q Would you l o o k a t numbered p a r a g r a p h 1. What i s 6 an SPI? 7 A I d o n ' t know. I t h i n k i t has to do w ith a 8 purchase som ething, h u t I d o n 't know. 9 Q You d o n ' t know what was meant -- 10 A I d o n ' t know what th e i n i t i a l s mean. 11 Q So you d o n ' t know what an SPI on the o b j e c t i v e s 12 of the Loss C o n tro l Committee would mean? 13 A No. 14 Q. Do you remember any p o l i c y s t a t e m e n t r e l a t i n g to 15 *the o b je c tiv e s of the Loss Control Committee? 16 A There i s one r e f e r e n c e h e r e , No. 4, I b e l i e v e , 17 the l a s t p a ra g ra p h on the page. 18 Q Do you remember th e l e t t e r of October 19th, 19 I960 to the D i r e c t o r s t h a t i s r e f e r r e d to i n p arag rap h 1? 20 A I d o n 't remember i t s p e c i f i c a l l y . 21 - Q Do you know w h e th e r some document went out t h a t 22 advised a l l le v e ls of management of the establishm ent and 23 f u n c t i o n s of the committee, a s mentioned i n p ara g ra p h 1? OFFICIAL REPORTER COMPANY * 1 2 4 0 1 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001214 S I L V E R SPRING. M D . 20904 Tel. 5 7 2 - 4 3 2 4 96 1 MR. BRUCH; I o b j e c t . Are you r e f e r r i n g to 2 Keasbey & M a t t i s o n when you a r e s a y in g management? 3 MR. BEERS: I am r e f e r r i n g t o Keasbey & 4 M a t t i s o n . Yes, I am. 5 A I d o n 't remember. 6 Q Would you lo ok a t p a r a g r a p h 3> E d u c a t i o n a l 7 Program. Do you remember any d i s c u s s i o n of th e f o r e m e n 's 8 tr a in in g meetings a t Ambler? 9 A No. 10 Q Do you remember t h a t f o r e m e n 's t r a i n i n g m eetings 11 . w e r e p a r t o f Dr. S t a b l e r ' s program? 12 MR. RUBIN; O b je c tio n a s t o form. 13 A I d o n 't remember t h a t . 14 Q Would you t u r n to page 2 and l o o k a t No. 5 Do 15 you se e where i t s a y s : "Mr. Horowitz d id n o t have an 16 o p p o rtu n ity to review Dr. S t a b l e r ' s r e p o r t s and recommenda 17 tions"? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Did you l a t e r review Dr. S t a b l e r 's r e p o r ts and 20 recommendations that are referred to here? 21 A I d o n 't remember. 22 Q L e t ' s t u r n t o Horowitz E x h i b i t 18. Would you 23 read the heading of th at document. Of f ic ia l reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive s i l v e r s p r i n g , m d . 20904 Castleman.CERT001215 Tel. 572-4324 97 1 A To Mr. A. W. S pedding. F e b r u a r y 8, 1962. 2 Re: R e q u e st f o r S p e c i a l A p p r o p r i a t i o n , Card Room Dust 3 'C o l l e c t i n g System, P l a n t 10. 4 Q I s t h i s a copy of a document th a t you wrote to 5 Mr. Spedding? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Who i s Mr. J . L. Rainey? 8 A He was p l a n t manager o f P l a n t 10, which was the 9 Meredith te x tile plant. 10 Q Would you p l e a s e t u r n t o Horowitz No. 19 and re; 11 `th e h e a d i n g of t h a t document. 12 A March 1 9 t h ,1962. To A. W. Spedding. 13 Subject: Asbestos T ex tile I n s t i t u t e Meeting, Air Hygiene 14 and M a n u fa c tu r in g Committee, March 8 and 9> 1962. 15 ; Q I s th is a copy of a document you prepared for 16 Mr. Spedding a t Keasbey & M a ttis o n ? 17 A Yes, i t i s . 18 Q I would l i k e you to look a t the names of those 19 th a t you reported to be in attendance. 20 * 21 Do you have any memory a b o u t Mr. Dewey C h i l d e r s ? A No. 22 Q Or John Hawkins? 23 A No. OFFicr reporter company r 401 Palermo Dnve Castleman.CERT001216 I I N G . MD. 20904 T -l <77-4^74 98 1 Q How a b o u t M r. C . S e c k l e r ? 2 A X b e lie v e th a t sh o u ld be S h e c k le r , C lif fo r d 3 S h e ck ler . 4 Q S -h -e -c -k -l-e -r ? 5 A Y es. 6 Q And who i s M r. S h e c k le r ? 7 A I w as on m any c o m m itte e s w ith M r. S h e c k le r , who 8 r e p r e s e n te d J o h n s - M a n v ille . I d o n 't know h i s e x a c t f u n c t io n . 9 I d o n * t b e l i e v e h e w a s an i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t , I b e l i e v e h e 10 w o rk ed in th e a r e a o f c o m p e n s a tio n , b u t h e w as a lw a y s my 11 t o u n t e r - p a r t on m any o f th e s e co m m ittee m e e tin g s th a t I wa3 in 12 Q W as h e a k n o w le d g e a b le fe llo w ? 13 MR. BRUCH: O b jectio n . 14 A In w hat a re a ? 15 Q D ust c o n tr o l en g in ee rin g ? 16 MR. BRUCH: O b jectio n a s to form . 17 A I d o n 't b e lie v e he was a d u st c o n tr o l e n g in e e r . 18 Q Y ou d o n 't know w hat h i s f i e l d w as? 19 A I th o u g h t i t had so m eth in g to do w ith com p en sa- 20 t io n . B u t he knew o f d u s t c o n d itio n s . 21 * Q Who i s M r. T . B o d n a r c h u l? 22 A I d o n 't know h im . 23 Q D oes th a t s p e llin g lo o k c o r r e c t to you? official Reporter company 1 2 4 0 1 Palermo Dr.ve Castleman.CERT001217 S I L V E R S P R I N G . M D . 20904 'el. J 7 2 -4 3 2 4 99 1 I d o n ' t know him. The name d o e s n ' t r i n g a b e l l 2 w i t h me a t a l l . 3 Q How a b o u t Mr. H. W a lte r? 4 A Which company i s t h a t ? 5 Q American Asbestos T e x tile . 6 A T hat i s Hans W a l t e r . I t h i n k we r e f e r r e d to him 7 before. 8 q, How a b o u t Dr. Mayer? 9 A Dr. Mayer was from American A sbestos T e x t i l e . 10 He was t h e i r , I t h i n k , owner. I am n o t s u r e . 11 * Q Do you know what he was a d o c t o r of? 12 A He was an e n g i n e e r . I r e a l l y d o n ' t know. 13 Q How a b o u t Dr. W e lls a t U. S. Rubber? 14 A I d o n 't remember him. 15 Q Would you p l e a s e t u r n t o page 2. 16 A Yes. 17 Q About h a l f - w a y down th e p a g e , where the h eading 18 i s Safety and Training Programs, do you see th at? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Do you se e a r e f e r e n c e t o J o h n a - M a n v i l l e 21 e n g i n e e r i n g and t r a i n i n g program f o r management down to th e 22 supervisor's level? 23 A Right. Offic ia l reporter Com pany 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001218 : SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 100 1 Q Did you ever see any documents r e f l e c t i n g t h i s 2 engineering and tra in in g program? . 3 * 4 A No, I d id n o t . Q Do you se e th e n e x t p a r a g r a p h , where i t says: 5 "H. K. P o r t e r employees r e g u l a r l y a t t e n d I n d u s t r i a l Managemen 6 Club c o u r s e s sp o n so red by th e YMCA on a v o l u n t a r y b a s i s ? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Do you r e c a l l any comparable programs f o r 9 Keasbey & Mattison employees or, l a t e r , for CertainTeed 10 employees? 11 ^ A None t h a t I know o f . 12 Q Would you p l e a s e t u r n t o Horowitz E x h i b i t No. 20 13 Would you p l e a s e r e a d the hea ding of t h a t document. 14 A Use o f Dust R e s p i r a t o r s . I t was w r i t t e n t o Mr. 15 * j . S. Simons, Safety D irecto r, April 5, 1962. 16 Q I s t h i s a copy of a document prepared by you? 17 A Yes, i t i s . 18 Q I s th a t your sig n a tu re a t the end of t h i s 19 document? 20 A Yes, i t i s . 21 * Q Who was Mr. J . S. Simons? 22 A I can't recall. 23 Q Was he an employee of e i t h e r Keasbey & M a ttis o n Offic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001219 SILVER SPRING. MD. 2090a Tel. 372-4324 101 1 or CertainTeed? 2 A I c a n ' t r e c a l l . I can only make g u e s s e s a t t h a t , 3 MR. BRUCH: I o b j e c t t o t h a t q u e s t i o n . He could 4 be an employee o f N i c o l e t . Why l i m i t i t to two companies. 5 THE WITNESS: The d a t e may be a h i n t . I d o n ' t 6 know when C e rta in T e e d e x a c t l y took over and when N i c o l e t came 7 in . I have no id e a . 8 Q Could he have been an employee of N ico let? 9 A I questioned that because the report covers 10 every p l a n t w ith r e s p e c t to -- i t covers P l a n t No. 10, i t 11 ^ c o v e rs P l a n t No. 4 . I t i m p l i e s Keasbey & M a t t i s o n to me. 12 MR. BRUCH: I might add i t i m p l i e s Keasbey & 13 Mattison to the w itness with respect to A pril 5, 1962, but 14 your q u e s t i o n i m p l ie d some d a t e beyond J u n e , 1962. You can 15 ^ i g n o r e t h a t , b u t t h a t i s what i t d i d . You a s k ed Keasbey & 16 Mattison and CertainTeed. 17 I am n o t t r y i n g t o be a r g u m e n t a t i v e . 18 Q Mr. Horowitz, a r e you c l e a r t h a t Mr. J . S. 19 Simons was t h e S a f e t y D i r e c t o r of the company by whom you 20 were then employed? 21 * MR. BRUCH: At what time? 22 MR. BEERS: The d a t e of th e document, A p r i l 5> 23 1962. o Offic ia l Reporter Company T 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001220 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 T ,,1 S 7 7 - 4 1 7 4 102 1 A From th e c o n t e x t of the r e p o r t , I am c l e a r t h a t 2 i t i s Keasbey & M attison and not CertainTeed. But I do not 3 - r e c a l l who Simons was. Why d id I r e p o r t on a l l the p l a n t s to 4 him, I have no i d e a . I do n o t r e c a l l t h a t we had a 5 c o rp o ra te S afety D ir e c t o r . I j u s t do not r e c a l l t h a t . 6 Q So you do n o t know what the c i r c u m s t a n c e s were 7 t h a t l e d you t o w r i t e t h i s memorandum? 8 A I do n o t know the c i r c u m s t a n c e s f o r t h i s . 9 Q Do you know who r e c e i v e d a copy? 10 A I do n o t know. I know I s e n t i t to Spedding -- 11 `"` w e l l , no, I d o n ' t know t h a t e i t h e r . Yes, I do. On top of 12 t h e l e t t e r i s a comment from Spedding: " F i l e - Loss C o n t r o l" 13 s i g n e d AWS. So he g o t a copy of i t . 14 Q Mr. Spedding g o t a copy of i t ? 15 * A That i s rig h t. 16 Q AWS a r e Mr. S p e d d i n g ' s i n i t i a l s ? 17 A That i s Spedding's i n i t i a l s , which indicates i t 18 i s Keasbey & M attison, too. 19 Q Would you now t u r n t o Horowitz E x h i b i t 21 and 20 read the heading of th a t. 21 * A To Mr. H. C. J o h n s o n . September 25, 1962. 22 Subject: Asbestos T extile I n s titu te Meeting (ATI), Air 23 Hygiene and M a n u fa ctu rin g Committee, September 13 and 14, 196 O ffic ia l R epo r ter C om pany ^ 12401 P no Drive Castleman.CERT001221 SILVER S' MD. 2090+ Tel. 572-4324 103 1 Q Is t h i s a copy of a document you prepared? 2 A Yes, i t i s . 3 Q Do you r e c a l l w hethe r you were working f o r 4 CertainTeed or Keasbey & M attison a t the time t h i s document 5 was p re p a re d ? 6 A The f a c t t h a t i t ' s w r i t t e n to H. C. Johnson 7 indicates i t is CertainTeed. 8 Q Who was Mr. H. C. Johnson? 9 A Mr. H.C. Johnson was c h i e f of the e n g i n e e r i n g 10 group of C e r t a in T e e d when C e rta in T e e d took o v e r . 11 Q, Do you know who Mr. M. S. D avis, J r . i s ? 12 A He was v i c e - p r e s i d e n t of C e r t a i n T e e d . I d o n ' t 13 r e c a l l which d i v i s i o n , I t h in k e v e n tu a l ly he was v ic e 14 p resid e n t of the Pipe D ivision, but I cannot be sure, A. 15 Q How a b o u t Mr. M. F in k , who was he? 16 A Mr. Mat F in k was the S a f e t y D i r e c t o r f o r C e r t a i n 17 Teed. 18 Q What d oes th e n o t a t i o n P a o l i mean? 19 A Paoli i s a c ity near Philadelphia. That meant 20 he worked out of th a t o ffic e a t th a t time. 21 q Mr. F i n k had h i s o f f i c e i n P a o l i ? 22 A Yes, I b eliev e they had an engineering office 23 in Paoli. Of f ic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 -r I r m a A Castleman.CERT001222 104 1 q . Did anyone e l s e from Keasbey & M attison or 2 C e rta in T e e d go to t h i s ATI m e eting? 3 * 4 A No. Q Mr. Horowitz, did C e rtain T eed a f t e r i t bought 5 the p la n t a t Ambler from Keasbey & M attison ever i t s e l f 6 become a member of ATI? 7 A I have been t r y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d why I made a 8 r e p o r t on ATI t o C e rtain T ee d when C e r t a in T e e d d id n o t buy 9 the t e x t i l e p l a n t and, t h e r e f o r e , th e r e was no need. I f you 10 w is h , I can g iv e you my r e a s o n i n g why I t h i n k I wrote t h i s 11 r e p o r t . 12 Q I.would like that reasoning. 13 A I b e l i e v e i t was t o f o l l o w up th e U. S. P u b l i c 14 H e a l t h S e r v i c e s t u d y t h a t was goin g t o be made th r o u g h o u t 15 - the a s b e s to s in d u s try and th a t a r e p o r t or a d iscu ssio n of i t 16 was going to be made a t the ATI, which I a d v i s e d them and 17 sa id I thought I ought to continue j u s t to go to th a t 18 m e e t i n g . And I b e l i e v e t h a t i s th e r e a s o n I r e p o r t e d to them 19 about this meeting. 20 ft Would you t u r n to page 2, Mr. H orow itz. 21 * 22 23 A Yes. ft Would you look a t th e l a s t p a r a g r a p h . A "We were t h e r e f o r e r e q u e s t e d " ? Official reporter Company k 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001223 SILVER SPRING. MD. 2090a Tel. 572-4324 105 1 Q Yes. 2 3r 4 MR. MASON: Off the r e c o r d , (Discussion off the record.) Q Do you now se e t h a t th e two pages come from 5 d iffe re n t documents? 6 A Yes, they do. 7 q I s the f i r s t page a copy of a document th a t you 8 prepared, on the s u b j e c t o f th e ATI A ir Hygiene and M anufactur 9 i n g Committee m eeting of September 13 and 14, 1962? 10 A The f i r s t page i s a copy of t h a t m e etin g . 11 *' q Do you know where th e second page of t h a t 12 document is ? 13 A I am c o m p l e t e l y a s confused a s you a r e . I d o n ' t 14 know where i t came from. 15 " q i know where t h e second page came from. I t came 16 from a document we looked a t a few m in u t e s ago. 17 Do you know where the second page t o th e 18 document o f September 25, 1962 now i s ? 19 A I have no id e a. 20 MR. BEERS: May we have a unanimous agreement 21 * t o s e p a r a t e th e second page and d i s c a r d i t ? I s t h e r e any 22 objection to th at? Off the record. (D iscu ssio n o ff the re c o rd .) 23 OFFICIAL REPORTER COMPANY T>t. 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001224 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 106 1 MR. BEERS: So i t i s a g r e e d t h a t Horowitz 2 E x h i b i t 21 f o r p u rp o ses of t h i s d e p o s i t i o n c o n s i s t s of only 3 the one page dated September 25, 1962. 4 Q, Would you now look, Mr. H orow itz, a t the 5 document t h a t i s marked No. 22. 6 . MR. BEERS: Off the r e c o r d . 7 (Discussion off the record.) 8 Q Would you r e a d the h e a d in g t o E x h i b i t No. 22. 9 A Asbestos T e x tile i n s t i t u t e , Air Hygiene and 10 M a n u f a c tu r in g Committee, J a n u a r y 24, s i x t y - s o m e t h i n g . To 11 ~Mr. H. C. J o h n s o n . 12 Q I s th is a copy of a document you prepared for 13 Mr. Johnson a t C e rta in T e e d ? 14 A Yes. 15 - q Would you lo ok a t the p e r s o n s t h a t you have 16 indicated were in attendance a t th a t meeting. 17 A Yes. 18 Q Do you know Mr. W. H. Jo hnson o f A t l a s Asbestos 19 Company? Do you remember him? 20 A No. 21 * q Would you t u r n t o page 2, p l e a s e . I f you w i l l 22 look a t the second f u l l paragraph, which begins, 'A team of 23 tw elv e p e o p l e w i l l v i s i t each p l a n t f o r a b o u t a w eek ." Offic ia l Reporter Company , k 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001225 A'l'iA SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 *7*> 107 1 2 3 * A Yes. Q Did a team v i s i t a CertainTeed p la n t? A A team v i s i t e d two C e rta in T e e d p l a n t s , a s I 4 indicated before. 5 Q And were th e p l a n t v i s i t s by th e P u b lic H ea lth 6 S ervice t h a t you described t h i s morning the v i s i t s th a t were 7 contemplated by t h i s paragraph? 8 A Only p a r t i a l l y . Only the en v iro n m e n tal study 9 was made, the m edical study was never made, and they d i d n ' t 10 use twelve people, they used four or five or six. 11 * q Would you now t u r n to E x h i b i t No. 23. Would you 12 read the heading of th a t. 13 A A sbestos Exposure and N e o p la s ia . June 1 s t , 1964 14 To Mr. R. L. Lanz. * 15 ' Q Have you e v e r seen t h i s document b e f o r e ? 16 A Yes, I have. 17 Q Is th is a copy of a document you prepared for 18 Mr. Lanz a t CertainTeed? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Do you remember the c i r c u m s t a n c e s t h a t l e d you 21 t o p r e p a r e t h i s document f o r Mr. Lanz? 22 A I b e l i e v e fro m my n o t e s t h a t I w as t r y i n g t o 23 i n d i c a t e t o m anagem ent t h a t we s h o u ld c o o p e r a t e w ith th e ft Official Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001226 SUV ,1-KiNC. MD. 20904 108 1 U. S. P u b l i c H e a l t h S e r v i c e v i s i t . 2 Q Can you r e a d the h a n d w r i t i n g a t th e bottom of 3 page f o r us? 4 A I made a n o t e of the l a s t p a r a g r a p h , sa y in g : 5 R. L. Lanz phoned June 2nd, 1964, OK f o r U. S. P u b l i c H e a lth 6 Service v is it. 7 Q Would you l o o k a t the f i r s t p a r a g r a p h . 8 A Yes. 9 Q I take i t you did attend the meeting referre d 10 to i n P h i l a d e l p h i a on A p r i l 29, 1964? 11 ` A Yes. 12 Q Did you make a r e p o r t of t h a t m e e ti n g to your 13 employer? 14 A I d o n ' t remember. I t h i n k t h i s may have been 15 : -th e r e p o r t . I d o n ' t know. 16 Q, Do you remember from whom you g o t th e paper 17 th a t you e n t i t l e d in t h i s document, Asbestos Exposure and 18 Neoplasia? 19 A I do not remember. 20 Q Now would you lo ok down to the n e x t - t o - t h e - l a s t 21 ^paragraph, where i t d i s c u s s e s Dr. C r a l l e y o f th e U. S. 22 Public Health Service. 23 A Yes. Of f ic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001227 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 el. 5 7 2 -0 2 4 109 1 Q Do you 'see the r e f e r e n c e to some f a c t being 2 r e p o r t e d to Mr. M. S. D a v is , J r . ? 3 A T hat he made a p r e l i m i n a r y v i s i t ? 4 Q Yes. 5 A Yes. 6 q Do you know who made t h a t r e p o r t to Mr. Davis? 7 A I b e l i e v e i t was my r e p o r t . I would have 8 r e p o r te d to him th a t Dr. C ralley v i s i t e d us. 9 q Did youmake a w r i t t e n r e p o r t , doyou know? 10 A I b e lie v e so . I hadmostly c o n ta c t only through / . 11 ^ c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w ith Mr. D a v is . 12 Q, Do you s t i l l have a copy of t h a t r e p o r t ? 13 A I have n o t seen i t i n my f i l e s . I d o n ' t have a 14 copy. 15 ^ Q Are you aware th a t Dr. S e lik o f f read a paper a t 16 a m e e ti n g o f th e New York Academy o f Medicine i n New York 17 City in the f a l l of 1964? 18 A In the Waldorf A s to r ia , i s t h a t the one you are 19 referring to? 20 21 * 22 23 Q, W e ll, I t h i n k s o . Yes. < A He r e a d many p a p e r s t h e r e . Q And -- A He and h i s team gave many p a p e r s t h e r e . Of f ic ia l reporter Com pany # 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001228 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 110 1 Q And d id some of th o se p a p e rs d e a l w ith the 2 s u b je c t of the r i s k of cancer from exposure to asbestos? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Did you a t t e n d t h a t New York Academy s e s s i o n ? 5 A Yes, I did. 6 Q Did anyone e l s e from CertainTeed a t t e n d with you 7 A Not from CertainTeed i t s e l f , no. 8 Q Did someone a t t e n d w ith you from any company 9 related to CertainTeed? 10 MR. BRUCH: O b j e c t i o n . 11 * a Not from a company r e l a t e d to C e rtainT ee d. 12 q Who went w i t h you, Mr. Horowitz? A A D r. Shaw o f the ATI went w i t h me. 13 14 Q D r. Shaw? 15 * A That is r ig h t. q Who a r r a n g e d f o r the two of you t o go t o g e t h e r ? 16 A I b e l i e v e Mr. H u t c h c r o f t , b u t I am n o t s u r e . 17 Q And who a g a i n was Mr. H u t c h c r o f t ? 18 A He was i n t h e R & D s e c t i o n o f b o t h Keasbey & 19 20 M attison and CertainTeed, research and development. . , 21 Q. Did you w r i t e a r e p o r t t o y our employer on the 22 New York Academy m e e tin g ? 23 A Yes, I d id . Offic ia l reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001229 SILVER SPRINC. MD. 20904 T - J <77 A 'l'JA 112 1 asbestos? 2 A They r e l a t e t o my f u n c t i o n w i t h the company, 3 find I d o n ' t know w h e th e r I have a l l my c o r r e s p o n d e n c e . I 4 ju s t have a few. 5 Q Are any of the other documents r e p o r ts to your 6 employer about your attendance a t conferences sim ilar to the 7 r e p o r t you have d e s c r i b e d , r e l a t i n g t o th e New York Academy 8 meeting? 9 A There probably are a few, yes. 10 Q Do you have any o b j e c t i o n t o our o b t a i n i n g 11 ^copies of th o s e r e p o r t s ? 12 13 14 15 * 16 A No. * Q At your convenience? A Any time you want them. Q Would you now l o o k a t E x h i b i t No. 24. MR. HILLY: That i s w i t h th e u n d e r s t a n d i n g we 17 w i l l a l l g e t co p ies of them? 18 MR. BEERS: I d o n ' t t h i n k t h a t q u e s t i o n was 19 a s k e d , Mr. H i l l y , b u t I p e r s o n a l l y have no o b j e c t i o n . I 20 j u s t asked in b e h a lf of the group whether he had any 21 jsob j e c t i o n to making them a v a i l a b l e . 22 MR. BRUCH: In b e h a l f of y o u r group. THE WITNESS: I f I am going t o make i t a v a i l a b l e 23 Offic ia l Reporter com pany 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001230 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 113 1 I would l i k e to make one a v a i l a b l e and you guys ta k e c a r e of 2 yourselves. 3 t Q W e ll, Mr. H orow itz, would you then make a v a i l a b l e 4 copies of such of the other documents in your personal f i l e 5 a s we would l i k e t o h a v e , on the u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t we w i l l 6 forw ard c o p i e s o f e v e r y t h i n g we g e t t o the r e s t of the group? 7 A Am I t o make a Judgment f a c t o r a s t o which to 8 include and which not to include? 9 Q W e ll, I t h i n k we would l i k e to se e them a l l , i f 10 we c o u l d , u n l e s s t h e r e i s something -- 11 * a Even i f they d o n 't r e l a t e to t h i s su b ject? 12 Q W e ll, why d o n ' t we t r y t o work t h a t out w ith 13 you on a c a s e - b y - c a s e b a s i s . 14 15 * A Okay. Whatever you want. MR. BRUCH: In any s i t u a t i o n where you work t h a t 16 out on a c a s e - b y - c a s e b a s i s we would l i k e t o be r e p r e s e n t e d , 17 s i n c e we have n o t t h e same i n t e r e s t a s y o u r s . O th erw is e , I 18 would s u g g e s t t h a t we have t h i s gentlem an g iv e a l l the 19 r e c o r d s t o a co p y in g ag en cy and l e t them make a copy f o r you 20 and whoever else wants a copy. 21 * MR. BEERS: I d o n ' t want t o work o u t the 22 d e t a i l s now, Mr. B ruch, b u t I w i l l t e l l you t h i s , t h a t we 23 w i l l make some a r r a n g e m e n t w i t h Mr. Horowitz and we w i l l Offic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001231 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 T cl S 7 2 -4 3 2 4 114 1 disclose those arrangements to everyone. 2 MR. PONTZ: I would l i k e t o s t a t e on th e r e c o r d 3 th a t CertainTeed o b je c ts stren u o u sly to th a t approach and 4 (jo e v e r y t h i n g we can t o p r e v e n t i t . There may v e r y w e l l 5 be r e c o r d s t h a t Mr. Horowitz has t h a t have n o t h i n g w h a ts o e v e r 6 to do with th is l i t i g a t i o n and I d o n 't believe th a t, under 7 the circumstances, any party here has a rig h t to see those 8 documents.. For C a ssia r or any other counsel here to be 9 g iv e n t h e o p p o r t u n i t y t o se e t h o s e documents w i t h o u t some 10 counsel being present that might take a different perspective 11 "bn t h i n g s smacks of im p ro p er p ro c e d u r e to me. 12 I f you want to work out an agreement with other 13 attorneys present so th at a mutual review of those records 14 can be made, so th a t nothing w ill be seen amongst those 15 d o c u m e n ts t h a t i s n o t germane t o t h i s l i t i g a t i o n , I would 16 presume t h a t t h a t would be a f a i r way t o p r o c e e d . O therw ise, 17 I think th a t C assiar would be abusing the kind opportunity 18 that is being afforded to you. 19 MR. BEERS: Mr. P o n tz, I ta k e i t you do not 20 r e p r e s e n t Mr. H orowitz i n t h i s p r o c e e d i n g . 21 0 MR. PONTZ: I do n o t . 22 THE WITNESS: I f e e l t h a t I am n o t knowledgeable 23 enough t o know what i s germane and what i s n o t . Offic ia l Reporter Company V* 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001232 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 115 1 . MR. BEERS: Thank you, Mr. H o ro w itz. 2 Would you mind going o f f the r e c o r d f o r a minute 3 (Discussion off the record.) 4 Q Mr. H orow itz, would you p l e a s e t u r n t o E x h i b i t 5 24. Would you r e a d th e h ea d in g of E x h i b i t No. 24, p l e a s e . 6 A To Mr. H. J . A n g s ta d t. O ctober 16, 1964. X -ray 7 Program . 8 q Do you know who p r e p a r e d t h i s document? 9 A I believe I did. Yes, I d id . 10 q Would you l o o k a t p a r a g r a p h 1, p l e a s e . 11 * 12 A Yes. Q Do you remember what th e p u b l i c i t y was t h a t you 13 have made r e f e r e n c e t o i n p a r a g r a p h 1? 14 15 > A N*o, I do n o t . q Would you l o o k a t E x h i b i t No. 25, p l e a s e . Would 16 you read the heading of th a t. 17 A To A l l Pipe P l a n t Managers. August 11, 1965- 18 Chest X-ray Program. 19 Q Do you r e c o g n i z e t h i s document? 20 A Yes. I t i s my document. 21 * q you p r e p a r e d t h i s document? 22 A Yes, I did. Q Are th o se you r I n i t i a l s up in th e r ig h t-h a n d 23 Offic ia l Reporter com pany 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 2090* Castleman.CERT001233 T e l 572-4324 116 1 corner? 2 A Those a r e my i n i t i a l s up i n the r i g h t - h a n d cornel 3 Q Would you lo o k over a t th e names t h a t a r e shown 4 to have received a carbon copy. 5 Would you i d e n t i f y Dr. D. J . Donald f o r me? 6 A I b e l i e v e he was an o u tsid e medical c o n s u l t a n t t( 7 the company. 8 Q I d ire c t your attention to the f i r s t paragraph, 9 which d e s c r i b e s a proposed c h e s t x --r a y program. 10 A Yes. 11 * Q You w i l l n o t e t h a t i t i n d i c a t e s t h a t t h a t prograi 12 had p r e v i o u s l y been d i s c u s s e d w ith Mr. Lanz? 13 A Yes. 14 Q. Did you d i s c u s s the program w ith Mr. Lanz? M 15 ' ' A I believe I did. 16 Q And d i d he approve i t ? 17 A I d o n 't remember the d isc u ssio n th a t I had with 18 him. 19 Q Was t h e program -- 20 A Unless i t had to do with t h i s previous l e t t e r 21 tfiat we j u s t d i s c u s s e d i n E x h i b i t No. 24. 22 Q Did the program go in to e f f e c t a t a l l p lan ts? 23 A I b e lie v e p a r t of the program had to do w ith the * Of f ic ia l Reporter Company 12401 P ale rm o D riv e Castleman.CERT001234 S IL V E R S P R I N G . M D . 20904 Tel. 5 7 2 - 4 3 2 4 117 1 f a c t th a t they were not taking f u l l size x -ra y s, and I 2 believe th at went in to e f f e c t , they changed to f u ll size 3 x-rays. Whether i t went in to effect as far as taking x-rays 4 a t pre-employment and r e g u la r times, I have no knowledge to 5 that effect. 6 Q Do you se e in th e secon d p aragrap h a r e fe r e n c e 7 to " r e q u ir e m e n ts o f ou r new in s u r a n c e c a r r i e r , T r a v e le r s 8 In su r a n c e Company"? 9 A Y es. 10 Q 11 * . a Do you rem em ber w hat th o se re q u ir em en ts w ere? I b e l i e v e p a r t of i t was the 14 by 17 x - r a y s 12 and g e ttin g a q u a lifie d physician. I d o n 't have t o t a l r e c a ll 13 on t h a t a t a l l . 14 Q Do you rem em ber when T r a v e le r s becam e C e r ta in - 15 d e e d 's in su rer? 16 A W hen C e r ta in T e e d to o k o v e r , I b e l i e v e 17 E m p lo y e r s M u tu a l w as th e c a r r i e r . Then a t som e tim e a f t e r 18 t h a t , T r a v e le r s becam e th e w ork m an 's c o m p e n sa tio n c a r r i e r , 19 b ut I d o n 't r e c a ll when. 20 q W hen C e r ta in T e e d b ecam e y o u r e m p lo y e r d id y o u 21 d i s c u s s w i t h the new owners of the p l a n t w hether or n o t you 22 w ou ld c o n t in u e to w ork a t A m b ler? A W hen C e r ta in T e e d b ecam e th e new e m p lo y e r th e r e 23 Offic ia l reporter company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001235 *r SM ' .R SPRING. MD. 2090* Tel. 572-4324 118 1 w as a p e r io d w here th o se o f u s in th e E n g in e e r in g D epartm ent, 2 n one o f u s knew w h e th e r we w ou ld be r e t a in e d . I re c a ll a 3 p e r io d a s lo n g a s s i x m o n th s -- I may o r m ay n o t b e r i g h t 4 a b o u t t h a t . D u rin g t h a t p e r io d I w as c a lle d in to be i n t e r S v iew ed , w ith a d esk th r e e -q u a r te r s th e le n g th o f th is one, 6 w ith f a c e s t h r e e -q u a r te r s th e num ber o f t h i s o n e, and I was 7 q u e s tio n e d a s to my f u n c t io n , w hat I can c o n tr ib u te to the 8 c o m p a n y . I b e l i e v e M r. S c h n e i d e r i n f o r m e d th e m o f w h a t my 9 f u n c t i o n w a s an d th e im p o r ta n c e o f my f u n c t i o n , an d th e y 10 d e c id e d to r e t a in m e. 11 -s* Q Do you rem em ber who w as a t th a t m ee tin g ? 12 A M r. D a v is , M r. S c h n e id e r , m y s e lf , and I b e lie v e th a t e n g in e e r I m e n tio n e d , M r. J o h n so n , L . D. J o h n so n , and 13 14 m a y b e M r . L a n a , b u t I c a n ' t r e c a l l t h a t f o r s u r e . *9 15 W as M r. D a v i s t h e M r. M. S . D a v i s w e h a v e Q 16 ta lk ed ab ou t b efo re ? 17 A Y es, I b e lie v e he was th e r e , y e s . Do y o u rem em b er w h at M r. S c h n e id e r s a id a b o u t 18 Q 19 w hat y o u r r o le w as in th e com pany? 20 A No, I do n o t. 21 ' Q Do you rem em ber th a t i t w as a c c u r a te ? 22 I t i n e s s e n c e d e s c r i b e d m y f u n c t i o n , y e s . A Do you rem em ber a n y th in g e l s e a b o u t the 23 Q Of f ic ia l R e p o r t e r Company 1 2 4 0 1 Palermo Drive S I L V E R S P R IN G . M D . 20904 Castleman.CERT001236 Tel. 5 7 2 - 4 3 2 4 119 1 discussion? 2 A That was about i t . ^ 3 MR. BEERS: We have one more e x h i b i t we would l i k e t o show Mr. H orow itz. I t i s an o r g a n i z a t i o n c h a r t t h a t 4 he has produced for us. But i t i s not d uplicated, so I 5 s u g g e s t we p a s s to someone e l s e and we w i l l a s k t o e back 6 7 for that limited purpose. 8 MR. DELORENZO: No q u e s t i o n s . E X A M I N A T I O N BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT UNITED STATES 9 10 BY MR. HERMAN: ,, 11 e M r. H o r o w itz , c o u ld y o u g o b a ck to H o ro w itz 12 E x h i b i t No. 1 3 , p l e a s e . 13 A Yes. q_ Could you turn to page 2. 14 15 a Yes. q W ell, l e t me a s k you t h i s , f i r s t . Were any 16 people from the Public Health Service a t th a t meeting which 11 1! you r e p o r t e d i n t h i s memorandum? A I d o n 't r e p o r t them as being th e r e , no. 1! q Who p r o v id e d th e i n f o r m a t i o n i n c o n v e r s a t i o n 2 . w i t h Dr. M a g n u s e n w h i c h y o u d e s c r i b e o n p a g e 2 ? 2 A That was Dr\ r. SCmm-ii1t-Vhi, iKveennnnee th Smith of J o h n s -- 2 o M a n v ille. OFFICIAL REPORTER COMPANY 12401 P a le rm o D riv e SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Castleman.CERT001237 T - ' 572-4324 120 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 q .C o u l d y o u t u r n t o E x h ib it No. l6 . A Yes. , q W ere th e r e a n y p e o p le from th e P u b lic H e a lth S e r v ic e a t th e m e e tin g w h ic h y o u d e s c r ib e i n th a t m em orandum ? A N ot a t th a t m ee tin g . q And w ho p r o v id e d th e i n f o r m a t i o n c o n c e r n in g th e j V,-,, rvrc! C r a l l e y , G i b s o n a n d E n t e r l i n e ? s ta te m e n ts made by D r s. G r a iie y , A I d o n ' t r e c a l l who pro v id ed t h a t . W as i t som eon e from th e P u b lic H e a lth S e r v ic e ? A A p p a r e n tly , th e ch airm an o f th e co m m itte e s e n t th e l e t t e r t o th e U . S . P u b lic H e a lth S e r v ic e an d h e may h a v e p r o v i d e d t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n , b u t I d o n ' t Wnow s p e c i f i c a l l y . q W o u l d y o u t u r n t o E x h i b i t N o . 19- A ' q Y es. W as th e r e anyone _ from th e P u b lic Pu H ea lth S erv ice ^ ,, M n v th e m e e tin g d e s c r ib e d in t h a t m em orandum ? a t th a t m ee tin g , tn e m eeuxu^ A No. q Andw hop r o v id e d th ein fo r m a tio n w h ich you l i s t under th e h ea d in g U . S . P u b lic H ea lth S e r v ic e ? A D r. Ken S m ith . * q F in a ll y , E x h i b i t N o . 21. A Y es. q W a s t h e r e a n y o n e f r o m t h e P u b l i c H e a lth S e r OFFICIAL REPORTER COMPANY 12401 Palermo Drive r silver SPRING. MD. 20904 Castleman.CERT001238 Tel 572-4324 121 a t that meeting? A No. q who p ro v id ed th e in fo r m a tio n w h ich you s e t out in the second and th ir d paragraphs? A I d o n ' t know who p r o v id e d i t a t t h a t tim e. I t was g e n e r a l knowledge, i t seems, b u t I d o n ' t know who p ro v id ed th a t. Q, B u t i t w a s n 't p r o v id e d t o y o u b y som eon e from th e P u b lic H ea lth S e r v ic e ? A Not a t th a tp a r tic u la r d a te , no. q Would you t u r n t o E x h i b i t No. 22. A Yes. q You s t a t e d e a r l i e r t h a t a l l th e t h i n g s t h a t were s e t out on page 2 of your memorandum -- .. * a E x h ib it 22? Q, Yes, s i r . ___ w e r e n ' t d o n e d u r i n g t h e s t u d i e s t h a t y o u w e r e j p a r t ic ip a t in g in ? A That is rig h t. Q W hat w as done d u r in g th o se s tu d ie s ? . a O ccu p a tio n a l h is t o r y . M ed ica l h is to r y was d on e. E n v iro n m en ta l s tu d ie s w as d on e, b u t th a t i s n o t lis t e d h ere a s one o f th e s ix . P h y s ic a l e x a m in a tio n , sputum Of f ic ia l Reporter Company 12401 P ' rmo Drive ' ILVER S' G . MD. 20904 Castleman.CERT001239 1ei. 572*4324 122 examination, pulmonary function and chest x-rays were not 2 done. . d What happened d u r i n g the e n v i r o n m e n ta l s t u d i e s 3 A j believe I explained th a t the team from the 4 ,, s Public Health Service took a i r samples using various 5 methods, as well as taking occupational h i s t o r , and medical 6 h i s t o r y , did the sampling and counting and a n a l y t i c a l work 7 on th e s p o t , and then made some c o n c l u s i o n s a s t o a new 8 method of sampling and t e s t i n g f o r a s b e s t o s d u s t . That was 9 *. mndp a t t h a t ti m e , of 10 th e c o n c l u s i o n of th e r e p o r t ; n o t made 11 course. a 12 , Page 3 of t h e memorandum, i n th e f i n a l p a r a g r a p } d e s c r i b e s som e g ro u n d w o rk , o f E x h ib it 2 2 . I t d e s c r i b e s som e 13 groundwork t h a t was going t o be done b e fo re the s t u d i e s 14 15 t o o k p l a c e , i s t h a t r i g h t ? A Well, I indicated th a t there might be an 16 , . _ which was d is c u s s e d , in d u s tria l re la tio n s problem, which 17 a Do you know w h a t, i f a n y t h i n g , was done t o 18 e x p l a in t o th e p l a n t w orkers what was happening? 19 A x b e l i e v e I e x p l a i n e d t h a t once a d e c i s i o n was 20 t o d e , t h e U. S. P u b lic H e a l t h S e r v i c e got p e r m i s s i o n from 21 th e s t a t e f u n c t i o n a r i e s t o make t h e v i s i t , g o t p e r m is s io n 22 frOT the p l a n t t o make t h e v i s i t . I was a s s i g n e d tne t a s k 23 OFFICIAL REPORTER COMPANY 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001240 cii v/CR CPRINICj . M D . 20904 123 1 of s t a y i n g w i t h them w h i l e th e y made the v i s i t , t o c o o r d i n a t e 2 I t and BO on; and w i t h the OK of the p l a n t manager they were 3 able to take people off the Job, ask the questions, but they 4 n o t i f i e d th e w o rk e rs by b u l l e t i n board t h a t t h e v i s i t was 5 going to be made. 6 Do you know more s p e c i f i c a l l y what was l i s t e d 7 in th e n o t i f i c a t i o n on th e b u l l e t i n b oard ? 8 A I believ e i t said, in essence, th a t a team of 9 U. S . P u b l i c H e a l t h S e r v i c e p eople w i l l be v i s i t i n g th e 10 p l a n t , you w i l l be asked one by one to give them a work 11 h i s t o r y , which w i l l be p r i v a t e and n o t d i v u l g e d t o anyone except between you two, and they w ill be going in the plant 12 13 making d u s t s t u d i e s , in e f f e c t . Q Did you rece iv e the r e s u l t s from the Public 14 li Health Service of those studies? A I remember asking for the r e s u l t s . I don't 1< r remember r e c e iv in g them. 1 q Who d i d you as k ? 1 A Je rry Lynch. q Who i s J e r r y Lynch? * a Jerome Lynch was the man i n c h a rg e of the s t u d i e s i n th e f i e l d . He was under Dr. C r a l l e y . q Do y o u know i f an yon e e l s e from C e r ta in T e e d OFFICIAL REPORTER COMPANY tjt 12401 Paler' Vive Castleman.CERT001241 SILVER S PR i:--. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 124 1 received those results? a X vaguely remember re c e iv in g r e s u l t s . I d o n 't 2 3 toave i t i n my f i l s . a Do you know i f a n y t h i n g was done i n r e s p o n s e to 4 5 those results? A The purpose of tt-hhep sqttuuudyv was n o t -- i n f a c t , 6 management d i d n ' t g e t th e r e s u l t s . X g o t th e r e s u l t s . The 7 8 only purpose of the study was to determine the ex ten t of exposures i n the a s b e s to s in d u s try and i t was an environ 9 m e n t a l s t u d y . And, of c o u r s e , the m e d ic a l s tu d y which was 10 <0 f o l l o w , Which was to i n d i c a t e whether t h e r e was a h a z ard , 11 was n e v e r done. So the only purpose of the r e s u l t s was to 12 f i n d a new way of sam pling more a c c u r a t e l y a s b e s t o s , and 13 v J e r r y Lynch then designed an a n a ly tic a l th a t was done because j e r r y y 14 -Sethod and a sampling method. 15 Q And d i d you p u t t h a t method i n t o p l a y a t your 16 17 plant? 18 I t wasn't published u n til a fte r I le f t the 19 company. T u r n in g t o E x h i b i t No. 2 3 . 20 Q 21 A Yg g # T h e s e c o n d - t o - l a s t p a r a g r a p h . Do you have any 22 Q ---- r e c o l l e c t i o n o,,f w.ha.t tDwr. cCrraalllleeyy t o l d you f o l l o w i n g h i s 23 OFFICIAL REPORTER COMPANY 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001242 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 125 p re lim in a ry v i s i t to Ambler? A Did you say follow ing? Would you r e p e a t t h a t again? Q I 'm s o r r y . You mad6 a r e p o r t t o Mr. D avis a ou D r . C r a l l e y 's v i s i t , is t h a t r i g h t ? A Right. a Did you d is c u ss with Dr. C ralley , did you have an y d i s c u s s i o n s W ith D r. C r a lle y f o llo w in g h i s v i s i t ? A d ,, a s v e r y f r i e n d l y w i t h Dr. C r a l l e y and we would d i s c u s s what kind of program, how th e y were going to ,, i. t hsve been t e l l i n g you now, y e s ^go a b o u t i t , the t h i n g s t h a t I have been ' a Did Dr. c r a l l e y make any recommendations concerning Ambler? A That was not h is fu n ctio n . He was j u s t coming _ so rt of preliminary le ttin g Ho see what a pipe p l a n t was and s o r t of P " ' , Tn e s s e n c e , i t was l i k e a us know how they would work. In public r e l a t i o n s t h i n g . MR. HERMAN: I d o n 't have any other questions. examination by counsel for defendant bell asbestos by MR. GALLO: vnn tu rn t o E x h i b i t s 5 and t q M r. H o r o w itz , w o u ld y 6 f o r a moment, p le a s e , s i r . A *es. OFFICIAL REPORTER COMPANY 12401 Palermo Drive Cast|eman.CERT001243 SILVER SPRING. MD. 2090 q I am d i r e c t i n g you s p e c i f i c a l l y to th e l a s t p a r a g r a p h on page 1 of E x h i b i t 5- Would you r e a d t h a t p a r a g r a p h , e s p e c i a l l y th e p a r t t h a t c o n t i n u e s on t o page 2. A "In summary, a l l members claimed to have good dust control programs with frequent dust monitoring; pre employment p h y sicals in clu d in g l a r g e - s i t e x-ray as well as y early x -ra y to compare with previous p ic tu re to check progression, and a r e s p ira to r program for dusty atmospheres with the th re a t of discharge i f masks are not used." q And would you r e a d p a r a g r a p h 5 of Horowitz 6. ,, a "Operating personnel must be warned th a t i f they p e r s i s t in performing th e ir Job in dusty areas without the use of re s p ira to rs which have been provided, i t w ill be necessary to request disciplinary action through proper channels." q These two documents were w r i t t e n w i th in about a month of each other, th a t i s , September and October, I960? A R ig h t. q Around t h a t time did Keasbey & M attison have a program for enforcing the use of resp irato rs? . A X d o n ' t b e l i e v e th e y f o llo w e d my recommendations on t h a t a t a l l . Q Do you know w h eth e r or n o t you had d i s c u s s i o n s OFFICIAL REPORTER COMPANY M- 12401 Palcrm0 Drive Castleman.CERT001244 SH VER SPRING. MD. 20904 ` 1. 572-4324 127 1 with any of the plant managers concerning enforcement of a 2 respirator requirement? 3 A There may have been some discussion, but not the 4 particular items that you picked out, about disciplinary 5 action and so on, not that I know of, no. 6 Q In the course of your dust surveying and 7 studying in the plants did you have occasion to speak with 8 the plant managers? 9 A Yes; sure. 10 Q Did you have occasion to speak with management 11 people below the level of plant managers, such as supervisors t 12 and particular production line foremen? 13 A No. My function was primarily with the managers, 14 to advise the managers. 15 ' Q, Did you have discussions with the individual 16 plant engineers in particular plants? Not referring now to 17 central engineering, but the individual plant engineers? 18 A Having to do with dust collecting equipment, yes. 19 Q, In the course of taking your dust sampling, 20 this I take it would be done while production was going on? 21 *- A Yes. . 22 Q Would it be taken in the vicinity of where the 23 men were actually working? Of f ic ia l Repc tter Company 12401 P n o Drive Mt V E R c MD. 20904 T&. .. ,,-..>24 Castleman.CERT001245 128 1 A Yes, that is the way to do it. 2 Q Did you have discussions with any of the 3 workers, casual conversation, even, during the time that was 4 going on? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Did the workers know what the purpose of your 7 dust counting was? 8 A On occasion they would ask, and they had a 9 general idea that I was sampling for the dust in the air, yes 10 Q, Did you ever have occasion to take dust 11 sampling in areas where respirators were required? 12 A Yes; sure. 13 Q Did you ever discuss with any employees the 14 purpose of the requirement? IS V A Which requirement? 16 Q The respirator userequirement? 17 A In general, no. 18 Q Did you have any specific occasion, even though 19 you say In general you did not? Did you have any particular 20 specific occasion to discuss respirator use with an employee? 21 A It wasn't my function to directly inform or 22 educate the worker. My function was advisory to management 23 and it was their function to pass on my information to them. ^ O f f ic ia l Reporter c o m p a n y Castieman.CERT00i246 '""01 Palermo Drive R SPRING. MD. 2090< 129 1 Q If you were taking a dust count in an area where 2 respirators were definitely required and you saw someone in 3 the immediate vicinity who did not have his respirator on, 4 would you say something? 5 A Not to the man, no. I would say it to the 6 manager. 7 Q Did you ever have occasion to see a manager 8 instruct an employee to put his respirator on? 9 A I had no occasion to do that. 10 Q When you say this was not your duty, whose duty 11 Would it have been? 12 A The manager's duty, directly or indirectly, but 13 the manager's duty. 14 Q Under him whose duty would it have been? 15 A In all likelihood, a supervisor of that area. 16 Q You have mentioned some people in connection 17 with -- I think the term you used was industrial relations, 18 Mr. Scranton, and I think you also said Mr. Keach was 19 involved in industrial relations? 20 * 21 ' A I think he was, yes. - Q Would they have had occasion to discuss working 22 conditions with employees as part of their industrial 23 relations duties? & OFFICIAL Repc ER COMPANYCastleman.CERT001247 12401 P Drive SILVER Sl'k lis o . 20904 .130 1 MR. BRUCH: Objection. 2 A I am not aware of what their function was. 3 * Q, Are there any other people in Keasbey & 4 Mattison management who had responsibility for this area 5 which you term industrial relations? 6 A Repeat that again. 7 Q Are there any other people who were involved 8 with industrial relations, as you termed it? 9 A I am sure the management of the corporation, as 10 well as in plant management, were involved with industrial 11 *relation.s. - 12 Q So you are talking about the individual plant 13 managers? 14 A" 15 A I believe so. Q Is there anyone who specifically had that job 16 description, we might say? 17 A Only the names that I know of corporate side. 18 I don't believe there was in each plant an industrial rela 19 tions man. I don't believe they had that. 20 Q After CertainTeed took over, who would the 21 Ii ndustrial relations people have been? 22 A I am not aware of any. Q I think you said the first ATI meeting you 23 A O f f ic ia l Reporter CoMPANYcastieman.CERT00l248 1 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 131 attended was that of September 8 and 9 , I960, referred to in Exhibit 5 * is that right? * A Probably, because I was hired around May, i960, and don't recall anything before that. 0. thereafter? How frequently did you attend the ATI meetings A I believe they had two or three a year. Q Did you go to all of them? A All that I could get to, yes. You talked about the meetings of the Air Hygiene 11 and Manufacturing Committee? 12 A I was on that committee, yes. 13 Q Were you on any other committees? 14 * A Not for the ATI, no. 15 Q Were you present during general meetings, as 16 opposed to committee meetings? 17 A No; only when we called a general meeting once, 18 where Dr. Kenneth Smith worked. But that was our meeting, 19 Air Hygiene meeting, really. 20 Q Would it be fair to say, then, that you 21 attended most, if not all, of the ATI meetings beginning in 22 September, I9 6 0 , of the Air Hygiene & Manufacturing Committee? 23 A Y e s , *60 to '6 2 , OFFICIAL REPO 1 COMPANY 1240. ^ ^1vc <1\Vfctf CDDiKfr* wr\ hmu\a Castleman.CERT001249 132 1 Q '60 to -- 2 A Until CertainTeed took over, i 960 through 1962. 3 * Q How about after CertainTeed took over, did your 4 practices change as far as attending ATI meetings? 5 A Well, if you recall, there were two meetings I 6 attended to follow up the U. S. Public Health Service, but 7 I don't believe we were members of the ATI then. I just sat 8 in as a follow-up, I guess. 9 Q About how many meetings of the Air Hygiene and 10 Manufacturing Committee did you attend after CertainTeed took 11 over? 12 A I believe Just two. 13 Q Were there meetings of other organizations 14 which you attended? 15 A When? 16 Q Let's start with the Keasbey & Mattison phase. 17 A When you say organizations, could you define 18 that? 19 Q, Well, In response to one of my earlier 20 questions, you said, in concluding your answer, as far as 21 the ATI is concerned. Now, were you referring to some other 22 organization of which you also attended meetings? 23 A Well, I would attend annual meetings of the & Of f ic ia1l240r1 ePpaolerrmtoe rDriCveo m pany Castleman.CERT001250 Sp R| N G M D . 20904 T ,, l VT A l t A 133 1 American Industrial Hygiene Association. I would attend 2 either annual or semi-annual meetings of the Industrial 3 Health Foundation in Pittsburgh, at the Mellon Institute. 4 And that is all I recall for the time -- oh, I attended 5 local Industrial Hygiene meetings, American Industrial Hygiene 6 Association meetings. And then I would attend any specific 7 meetings that I thought related to the subject of my area of 8 responsibility. 9 Q When you say local American Industrial Hygiene 10 meetings, as opposed to the first thing you mentioned, which 11 was American Industrial Hygiene -- 12 A The annual one Is national, for the whole 13 nation. The local one is just for local sections. 14 Q, Where was the annual meeting held? 15 ' A Every year a different location. 16 Q The IHF meetings were always held in Pittsburgh? 17 A Pittsburgh. 18 Q Referring now to all of your years at Ambler, 19 from '60 to '68, about how frequently did you attend the 20 American Industrial Hygiene Association annual meetings? 21 - A Generally, every year I attended. 22 q All the way through the termination of your 23 employment with CertainTeed? Offic ia l ' r reporter company Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001251 'N C . MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 13^ 1 A Y es. 2 Q How a b o u t t h e I n d u s t r i a l H y g i e n e F o u n d a t i o n ? 3 A N o t e v e r y y e a r , b u t m any o f them I a t t e n d e d . 4 Q. M ore th a n o n ce a y e a r on o c c a s io n ? 5 A I 'd say an av era g e of once a y ea r . 6 Q How a b o u t t h e l o c a l A m e r ic a n I n d u s t r i a l H y g ie n e 7 A sso c ia tio n ? 8 A An a v e r a g e o f th r e e tim e s a y e a r or so m e th in g 9 lik e th a t. 10 Q W here w ere th ey h e ld , by th e way? 11 i fa They w ere h eld in P h ila d e lp h ia , in an e n g in e e r in g 12 clu b . 13 Q W as th e p ro b lem o f a s b e s t o s an d h e a lt h d is c u s s e d 14 a t an y o f th e se m eetin g s? A 15 A A s t h e r e b e c a m e m o r e a n d m o r e a w a r e n e s s o f t h e 16 h a za rd , i t becam e m ore and m ore d is c u s s e d . 17 q At a l l o f th e se a s s o c ia tio n m ee tin g s or o n ly a t 18 one o r som e o f them ? 19 A M o stly n a tio n a l, and th e I n d u s t r ia l H ea lth 20 F o u n d a tio n . L ocal s e c t io n s w ere n o t r e a lly d is c u s s io n , th ey 21 w ere d in n e r s w it h a s p e a k e r on a p a r t ic u la r s u b j e c t , and I 22 d o n 't b e lie v e a s b e s to s w as a p a r tic u la r item of g rea t 23 in t e r e s t a t th a t tim e . Off \ l Reporter Company 12401 Pa' Orive VER 20904 castieman.CERT00l252 135 1 Q. Do you have any documents i n c o n n e c ti o n w ith 2 your attendance a t e i th e r the n a tio n a l American I n d u s tr ia l 3 lygiene A s s o c i a t i o n or th e IHF? 4 A No, I d o n ' t th in k so. 5 Q, Did you have any c o n t a c t d u rin g your y e a rs both 6 a t Keasbey & Mattison or CertainTeed, with the N ational 7 Safety Council? 8 A I r e p r e s e n t e d our company a t a N a ti o n a l S a f e ty 9 Council annual meeting a f t e r I became S afety S upervisor of 10 the company, y es. 11 Q J u s t r e f r e s h my r e c o l l e c t i o n , s i r . When was t h a t 12 A Somewhere around '65 or *4. ' 65 I t h i n k i t was. 13 Q That was j u s t one meeting? 14 A 15 ' A No; a n n u a l l y a f t e r t h a t . Q As p a r t o f y our c o n t a c t w i t h th e N a t i o n a l 16 S a fe ty Council was a s b e s to s and h e a lth ever d isc u sse d or did 17 you e v e r r e c e i v e any i n f o r m a t i o n from the C ounc il on t h a t 18 subject? 19 A I t w a s n 't a dominant problem with them. 20 I n d u s t r i a l hygiene I s of g r e a t e r i n t e r e s t t o them now. L 21 I n d u s t r i a l hygiene was J u s t one s e c t i o n of a whole week progra 22 and the subject v arie d , but I d o n 't r e c a ll any asbestos 23 d i s c u s s i o n a t t h a t tim e, between '65 and '6 8 . Ik Of f ic ia l Reporter Co m p a n y castieman.CERT00i253 12401 Palermo Drive SIL' " .UNG. MD. 20904 136 . 1 D id K e a sb e y & M a ttis o n r e c e iv e a n y t h in g from 2 the N a tio n a l S a fe ty C o u n c il in the n a tu re o f p o s te r s or 3 l e a f l e t s fo r d is t r ib u t io n to em p lo y ees? 4 A I w ou ld o r d e r them , a s th e S a fe ty D ir e c t o r , and 5 s o d id M at F i n k b e f o r e t h a t , I am p r e t t y s u r e . 6 q W hen d id y o u f i r s t o r d e r th em , in '6 5 ? A W h en ever I saw a s u b j e c t th a t I th o u g h t w ou ld be 7 8 h e l p f u l f o r a p a r t i c u l a r s u b j e c t t h a t I had In m in d w h ic h 9 w ould p u b l i c i z e o r h e lp t e l l th e e m p lo y e e s k eep y o u r f i n g e r s 10 out o f m a c h in e s and B tu ff l i k e t h a t . M ovies I w o u ld r e n t and 11 stu ff lik e th a t. I w ou ld pay fo r s u b s c r ip t io n s to t h e ir 12 m a g a zin e f o r e a c h o f th e p la n t s , th in g s li k e t h a t . Q W hat w as th e name o f th a t m a g a zin e? 13 A N a tio n a l S a fe ty C o u n cil N ew s, I th in k . 14 * 15 q p o r how m any y e a r s w as K ea sb ey & M a ttis o n or 16 C er ta in T e ed r e c e iv in g c o p ie s o f th a t m a g a zin e? A I d o n 't rem em ber K easbey & M a ttiso n , b u t 17 18 C erta in T eed r e c e iv e d i t e v e r y y e a r , a s fa r a s I know . 19 q B e g in n in g in `6 2 ? 20 A M aybe p r io r to t h a t . I d o n 't know. 21 Q D id a n y o f th e m a t e r ia ls t h a t w ere o r d e r e d from 22 N a tio n a l S a fe ty C o u n c il e i t h e r by you o r M r. F in k to u ch th e 23 on th e s u b j e c t o f r e s p i r a t o r u s e ? c -iciAL R e p o r t e r CompanyC. astleman.CERT001254 12401 mo Drive ,t MLVEF AD. 20904 if *** 137 1 A I can only guess that it was the kind of subject 2 that comes through every once in a while. 3 " Q Did they put out any posters showing, for 4 example, a picture of a man wearing a respirator? 5 MR. RUBIN: Objection. 6 A They may have. I don't know. 7 Q Do you recall a poster such as I described being 8 used at Keasbey & Mattison? 9 A I am in this field so long that my memory is 10 cross-hatched. I see it every day or I don't see it every 11 'day. I can't specifically say yes. 12 Q That poster that you see so often, is that put 13 out by the National Safety Council or some other organization? 14 4- 15 . MR. RUBIN: Objection. A Both. 16 Q Who puts it out? 17 A Private organizations. people do their own 18 drawings, stuff like that, insurance companies. 19 Q Finally, the health research originating in 20 South Africa and England that has been referred to in some of 21 1;hese documents which you indicated you became aware of at 22 some point, did any of that Include research being done by 23 any people connected with Cape Asbestos or Cape Industries, Of f ic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001255 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. J72-4324 138 1 Limited?- 2 A The only knowledge I have of any r e s e a r c h i s 3 papers w r i t t e n by i n d i v i d u a l s , and I have no idea of t h e i r 4 association with any industry a t a l l . 5 Q Did you ev er read any papers by a Dr. Smithers? 6 A The name i s f a m i l i a r to me, b u t I d o n ' t know. 7 Q Do you know what s u b j e c t he wrote on? 8 A I am n o t s u r e , no. 9 MR. GALLO: Thank you. 10 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT LAKE ASBESTOS 11 BY MR. BROMBERG: 12 Q You s t a r t e d a t t e n d i n g ATI A ir Hygiene Committee 13 meetings fo r your employer in what year? 14 A I960, about September, I think. 15 * q Do you know who was doing i t b e f o r e t h a t f o r 16 the same -- 17 A I b e l i e v e A r t h u r May was on the same committee 18 before I was. 19 Q You have m entioned Mr. May e a r l i e r toda y. Could 20 you d e s c r i b e to us a l i t t l e more f u l l y who he was a s of the 21 {Joint you were employed? 22 A I b e l i e v e he was the b o i l e r man; t h a t i s , he 23 desig n ed b o i l e r s w herever i t was n e c e s s a r y . I can only OFFP7IAL R ep o r ter Co m p a n y ** 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001256 LVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 139 1 guess that he was given the assignment of the industrial 2 hygiene area prior to me, but I don't believe he had much 3 experience in that area 4 q d d you sit down with him or talk to him when 5 you first got the job of going to these meetings, to try to 6 find out what went on at them or what they were all about? 7 A Well, I discovered that he had been to them, so 8 I discussed the ATI with him in general, but nothing specific 9 Q Did he have minutes of the meetings that he had 10 gone to? 11 * A It's possible that I came across one and that is 12 how I realized he had been there; but if so, I have no 13 recollection of them, no Q Do you recall ever reviewing the old minutes 14 15 when you first started going? In other words, the minutes 16 that preceded your first meeting? 17 A I don't recall doing that, no. Q Does the name Muelback mean anything? A The name is familiar. ft Who was he? * A I can only guess. ft Give me your best guess. A Plant 4? Of f ic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001257 iLVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 l4 0 1 Q, Can you be any more s p e c i f i c than t h a t ? 2 A I th in k he had something to do with P lant 4. 3 That i s a l l I know. 4 Q How a b o u t the name E l t e r i c h , does t h a t have any 5 ring to it? 6 A No. 7 Q How a b o u t S. C. S chm idt, who was he? 8 A I u n d e r s t a n d "there was a Schmidt who did d u s t 9 co u n ts b e f o r e I came. That i s a l l I know. 10 Q Did you ev er see any of h i s d u s t counts? 11 " A I b e l i e v e I saw some, y e s . 12 Q Were-they high as compared to five m illio n 13 p articles per cubic foot? 14 A My o p i n i o n of them i s th e y were done i n a v ery \ 15 a m a te u ris h way, t h a t he was n o t an i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t . 16 That is a l l I re c o lle c t about th a t. 17 Q In o th e r words, you d i d n 't th in k they were 18 reliab le to use as a -- 19 A I j u s t d i d n ' t t h i n k he wa3 an i n d u s t r i a l 20 h y g i e n i s t . They had the equipment and I understand he used i i ' * 21 How a b o u t Dr. H e a t h e r i n g t o n , d i d you know him? ' ft 22 A No. 23 Q Did you e v e r have any c o n v e r s a t i o n s w i t h Mr. May : OFFICIAL REPOF R COMPANY Castleman.CERT001258 12401 Pal Drive -VER. SPRING. MU. 20904 1kl 1 in regard to asb esto s and lung cancer? 2 MR. BRUCH: At any time? 3 MR. BROMBERG: E v e r . 4 A Not r e a lly , no, I do n 't think so. 5 q Did he e v e r show t o you or b r i n g t o your 6 a t t e n t i o n a r e p o r t e n t i t l e d , An E p id e m i o l o g i c a l Study of Lung 7 Cancer in Asbestos Miners? 8 A I d o n 't remember t h a t . 9 Q, Do you e v e r remember s e e i n g such a r e p o r t ? 10 A No. 11 Q Who i s Mr. Deckman? 12 A The name r i n g 3 a b e l l , b u t X d o n ' t r e c a l l who he 13 14 Q, Who i s Mr. Quealy? 15 A The same t h i n g . 1 16 q Who i s Mr. W h i t f i e l d , A. E. W h i t f i e l d ? 17 A Again th e same t h i n g . 18 Q, And how a b o u t Mr. Widmayer? 19 A No, I d o n 't r e c a l l t h a t name. 20 Q Do you know Mr. P o r t e r ? 21 A The p r e s i d e n t of the company? 22 Q I s t h a t what he was? 23 A Yes. Of f ic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001259 ,c '.V E R SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 57? 1324 142 1 Q Mr. B a r r ? 2 A Yes. 3 * 4 Q Who was he? A He was a minor e x e c u t i v e , somewhere above me. 5 Q Do you know what h i s f u n c t i o n was? 6 A I th in k he was a v i c e - p r e s i d e n t of something. I 7 d o n ' t know w hat. 8 Q How a b o u t Mr. C e v o li? 9 A It just rings a bell. 10 Q Do you know Mr. R. L. S t r i c k l a n d ? 11 * A The same t h i n g . 12 Q Did you e v e r meet Dr. Louis C r a l l e y ? 13 A Yes. I know him w e l l . 14 15 ' Q When d id you f i r s t meet him? A I believe in discussions of th is program that 16 t h e U. S. P u b l i c H e a lth S e r v i c e was going t o perform a t the 17 ATI; and then a f t e r t h a t i n subsequent m eetings, 18 I n d u s t r i a l Hygiene F o u n d a tio n and AIHA. Then a f t e r t h a t we 19 were business frie n d s, you might say. 20 21 * 22 23 Q And C l a r k Cooper, did you know him? A Yes. Dr. Cooper of C a l i f o r n i a , you mean? Q R i g h t . How d i d you know him? A He became i n v o l v e d w i t h a s b e s t o s s t u d i e s e i t h e r it Of f ic ia l r porter Com pany l? falermo Drive Castleman.CERT001260 STL 11NC. MD. 20904 ... . . 2-4324 143 1 sim ultaneously or a f t e r Dr. S e lik o ff and be represented the 2 i n s u l a t i n g u n io n s i n th e s t u d i e s he made out on the west coas < 3 - Q I s he somebody you knew p e r s o n a l l y ? 4 A I know him p e r s o n a l l y . 5 Q When i s the f i r s t time you can e v e r r e c a l l 6 having any co n v e rsatio n with him th a t r e l a t e d to the su b je ct 7 of asbestos and h ealth ? 8 A M ostly a f t e r he gave a t a l k on th e s u b j e c t a t an 9 in d u s t r i a l hygiene meeting, and then in the hallway type of 10 thing. 11 * Q The name o f Dr. Delmar Donald was mentioned befo:' 12 A Yes. I b e l i e v e he was a c o n s u l t a n t to C e r t a i n - 13 Teed, m e d i c a l , b u t I d o n ' t know any more a b o u t him. 14 tt 15 - Q Do you r e c a l l e v e r t a l k i n g t o him f a c e - t o --f a c e ? A I j u s t d o n 't remember i t . 16 Q How a b o u t J . L. Goodman, M. D ., d i d you know him? 17 A The name i s v ag u e ly f a m i l i a r . 18 Q Did you know him a s the Medical D i r e c t o r of 19 CertainTeed? 20 A I d o n ' t know because i t i s v a g u e l y f a m i l i a r . 21 * Q Mr. D a v i s , M. S. Davis? 22 A Yes. 23 Q When d i d you f i r s t know him? Offic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001261 S I L V E R S P R I N C . M D . 20904 Tel. 3 7 2 - 4 3 2 4 1 A I b e l i e v e he was one of the p e o p le who s a t i n 2 judgment on me t o d e c id e w hether I should c o n t i n u e w ith the 3 company or n o t . 4 q That was i n '62? A I believe that, yes. 5 6 q D o you r e m e m b e r any o t h e r d e a l i n g s w i t h h i m other than having him as your judge a t th a t time? 7 8 A Yes. I s e n t c o p i e s of r e p o r t s t o him when I 9 becam e S a fe ty S u p e r v iso r . Q Do you e v e r r e c a l l a t t e n d i n g any m e e ti n g s w ith 10 11 hfen? A As a f e l l o w p a r t i c i p a n t ? You mean i n the 12 13 a u d i e n c e ? No. Q. Any m e e ti n g s a t a l l ? 14 m a You mean e x e c u t i v e m e e ti n g s ? 15 q, M eetin g s th a t d isc u sse d th e s u b je c t o f a s b e s to s 16 17 and h e a lth ? A No, I do n o t r e c a l l any m e e ti n g s w i t h him. 18 q Do you r e c a l l Myril Shaw b e i n g employed by 19 CertainTeed as an "asbestos sp e c ia list" a t any time? * A Yes. ' M R . HILLY: O b j e c t i o n t o t h e fo rm . 0 When was t h a t ? OFFICIAL REPORTER COMPANY 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001262 SILVER "'R IN G . MD. 20904 145 1 A When he went to th e c o n f e r e n c e w ith me i n the 2 Waldorf A storia. w 3 Q And t h a t was a p p r o x i m a t e l y when, to the b e s t of 4 your recollection? 5 A 1964. M e r r i l l Shaw; r i g h t ? 6 q I f you say so. I sp ell i t M -y-r-i-1. Do you r e c a l l Dr. Shaw b r i n g i n g t o your a t t e n t i o n 7 8 Dr. S e lik o f f ' s paper e n t i t l e d , Asbestos Exposure and Neoplasii; 9 a t any time? 10 11 _ A I d o n ' t know where I got t h a t r e p o r t . q what did you understand Dr. Shaw's function to 12 be as an "a sb e sto s s p e c i a l i s t " ? MR. HILLY: I o b j e c t to the form. 13 A I d o n ' t b e l i e v e he was an i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t . 14 q I d o n ' t want to know what he w a s n ' t . What I am 15 16 tr y in g to fin d out i s what was he? A I b e l i e v e he was an e x p e rt i n r e s e a r c h and 17 18 production of asbestos te x tile products. Q Did you a l s o a t t e n d m e e tin g s on o c c a s i o n of an 19 20 o r g a n i z a t i o n known a s NIMA? 21 * 22 A Yes, I did. Q Were you a member of t h e i r H e a l t h and S a f e t y 23 Committee? Offic ia l Reporter company % 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001263 SILVER. SPRING. MD. 20904 -rl 146 1 A. Yes, I was. 2 Q From what year to what year? 3 * A When CertainTeed took over. I don't know 4 exactly when I started going to meetings, but it was probably 5 within a year or so after CertainTeed took over. 6 q Would that have been up until the time you left 7 the company? 8 A Up until the time I left the company. 9 Q Did you attend any meetings, that you can recall, 10 of that organization, at which either Dr. Cralley or Dr 11 Choper had been? 12 A Neither of them ever attended any meeting that I 13 was at, at that organization. 14 Q What were the functions of the Health and 15 Safety Committee of NIMA when you were attending the meetings 16 A One of the functions was to prepare material 17 for dispensing information as to the health hazards involved 18 with insulation products. 19 Q Do you recall a Mr. Strickland going to NIMA 20 meetings? 21 * A The name is familiar, but I don't recall him. 22 Q Do you remember a Dr. L. B. Grant of the Health 23 and S a f e t y C om m ittee? Offic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER ''"R IN G . M D. 2090 572-4324 Castleman.CERT001264 147 1 A . I know Dr. G r a n t. 2 Q F or whom did he work or by whom was he employed? ,, 3 a One of the f i b e r g l a s , Owens C orning, I t h i n k , or 4 Owens I l l i n o i s . I t h i n k i t ' s Owens C orning. 5 Q Did you know R ic h a r d Lander? 6 A Yes. That i s the f i r s t time I h e a r d t h a t name 7 i n 12 y e a r s , maybe more. 8 Q Do you know where he i s ? 9 10 11 - A No. Q When d i d you l a s t see him? A Was he manager of P l a n t 8 a t one time a t Ambler? 12 I c a n ' t h e l p you. Maybe someone e l s e c a n . I d o n ' t know 13 That i s a l l I remember. 14 Q You remember him a s a manager? 15 *- 16 A Yes. Q Do you remember d e a l i n g w i t h him on s a f e t y 17 subjects? 18 A Only i n a g e n e ra l way. I j u s t d o n ' t r e c a l l . I d o n 't r e c a l l whether i t was d u rin g Keasbey & M attison time 19 20 or CertainTeed time. 21 ? Q Do you know Ben Postman? 22 A Yes. 23 Q When d id you f i r s t meet him? OFFICIAL REPORTER COMPANY * 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001265 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 148 1 A I knew Ben Postman before I ever went to 2 CertainTeed. 3 q How about before you ever went to Keasbey & 4 Mattlson? 5 A Before X ever went to Keasbey & Mattlson. 6 q, How did you know him? 7 A Ben Postman was -- he passed away a few years 8 ago-- one of the forerunners of industrial hygienists in 9 this country. He worked for Employers Mutual, an industrial 10 hygienist for Employers Mutual, and I knew him in New York 11 City when I worked for the Division of Industrial Hygiene. 12 Q Was Employers of Wausau or Employers Mutual 13 ever the workman's compensation insurer either for Keasbey & 14 Mattlson or for CertainTeed during the period of time you 15 were employed there? 16 A Yes, but Ben Postman already had retired from 17 that company by that time. 18 Q Do you remember Ben Postman coming to any 19 meetings of ATI? 20 A Yes, he was at ATI, and it is In the minutes 21 heS-e, because he was going to write a paper on asbestos 22 textile dust control and he asked for their help at the ATI. Q Do you know Mr. Pitkin of CertainTeed? That 23 Offic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive SILVE" "' INC. MD. 20904 Castleman.CERT001266 149 1 doesn't ring at all? 2 A No. 3 * Q How a b o u t W. D. O 'N e il, does t h a t r i n g a t a l l to 4 you, of CertainTeed? 5 A No. 6 Q When you f i r s t wentw ith Keasbey &M a t t i s o n 7 did you have occasion toatten d aseminar a t the U niversity 8 of Pittsburgh? 9 A Well, a s I sa id , I went to the U n iv ersity of 10 P itts b u rg h because t h a t i s where the Mellon I n s t i t u t e was. 11 I f I t was held by the I n d u s t r i a l Health Foundation, I t i s 12 very possible that I did. 13 Q Did Mr. McGinley go w ith you a t t h a t time? 14 _ A Mr. McGinley, a s I i n d i c a t e d , was a s s i g n e d to 15 my one-man d e p a r t m e n t t o l e a r n about d u s t c o n t r o l i n 16 I n d u s t r i a l h y g ie n e and we s e n t him t o the I n d u s t r i a l H ealth 17 Foundation fo r a two-week I n d u s tr ia l hygiene course. I 18 don't r e c a l l going with him to the I n d u s tr ia l H ealth 19 F o u n d a tio n . We may have a t t e n d e d a m e e tin g t o g e t h e r , but 20 I don't recall that. 21 * Q You have i n d i c a t e d t h a t on numerous o c c a s io n s 22 you drew p la n s or drew s p e c i f i c a t i o n s f o r d u s t c o n t r o l 23 equipment, i s that correct? Official Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRINC. MD. 2090 "T ,,l AI^A Castleman.CERT001267 150 1 A Yes. 2 Q Was i t alw ays i n s t a l l e d , e v e r y t h i n g t h a t you 3 evr drew plans for? 4 A Yes, because I wouldn't have drawn plans unless 5 th ey made a d e c i s i o n to go ahead. 6 q in that decision-making process -- f i r s t of a l l , 7 you j u s t r e f e r r e d t o " t h e y " . Who was the " th e y " who made the 8 d e c is io n to go ahead? 9 A Some powers g r e a t e r than m y s e l f . 10 Q Do you have any i d e a who th e y were? 11 A W e ll, I would p a s s i t on t o Mr. Spedding or 12 whoever was my s u p e r v i s o r and they would go on from t h e r e . 13 Q Mr. A lpine l a t e r ? 14 A Yes. 15 . " Q And th e y would r e t u r n t o you w i t h a d v i c e a s to 16 whether you were or were not to proceed with i t ; right? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Did they always say the powers th a t be said 19 yes, go ahead? 20 MR. BRUCH: O b j e c t i o n . 21 v A There m ight have been some time d e l a y , depending 22 on t h e c o s t f a c t o r and when they were r e a d y f o r i t ; but i n 23 e s s e n c e , a l m o s t e v e r y t h i n g I made p l a n s f o r was done. O f f ic ia l Reporter Co m pany 'V 1 2 4 0 1 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001268 S I L V E R S P R I N G . M D . 2090a Tel. 5 7 2 - 4 3 2 4 151 1 Q When you t a l k a b o u t time d e l a y , a r e we t a l k i n g 2 about days, weeks, months, years? 3 ` A W e ll, one y e a r they may n o t have money so they 4 might decide next year to put i t in the budget. Something --v*,. 5 like that. 6 Q R egardless of what th e ir thought processes were 7 f o r n ot doing i t , what was the lo n g e s t t h a t you waited to see 8 some p la n implemented t h a t in v o lv e d d u s t c o n t r o l ? 9 MR. BRUCH: During what p e r i o d of time? 10 Q During the period of time you worked fo r 11 CertainTeed? 12 A Well, th a t i s not an easy q u estio n to answer. 13 For a new p l a n t , f o r i n s t a n c e , you would d e s i g n i t one y e a r 14 and i t w asn't completed u n t i l three years l a t e r . 15 " Q L e t's ta lk about Ambler. 16 A Once a d e c i s i o n was made, I would say s i x 17 months to a y e a r . I t t a k e s t h a t much tim e . 18 Q That was once a d e c i s i o n was made to go ahead? 19 A Yes. 20 Q How much time would p a s s from the time you 21 would make th e s u g g e s t i o n b e f o r e you g o t a d e c i s i o n a s to 22 whether they were or were not going to go ahead? 23 MR. BRUCH: O b je c tio n a g a i n . O f f i c i a l R e p o r t e r C o m p a n y Castleman.CERT001269 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 152 1 A A g e n e ra l average would be h a l f a y ear to a y e a r . 2 Q Did you e v e r g e t memoranda back t e l l i n g you why 3 they were not going ahead? 4 A No. 5 MR. PONTZ: O b j e c t i o n . I t h i n k Mr. Horowitz 6 t e s t i f i e d t h a t he was never to ld t h a t a p r o j e c t would not go 7 ahead. 8 Q Were you e v e r t o l d t h a t a p r o j e c t would n o t go 9 ahead? 10 11 q MR. HILLY: I o b j e c t . He answered t h a t . Were you e v e r t o l d t h a t a p r o j e c t would n o t go 12 ahead? . 13 MR. HILLY: The same o b j e c t i o n . 14 A Not in th a t fashion a t a l l , no. 15 * Q, In some o t h e r f a s h i o n ? 16 MR. HILLY: O b j e c t i o n . 17 A The g e n e r a l p i c t u r e o f , r i g h t now the funds a r e 18 not available. 19 Q On th e day b e f o r e C e rta in T e e d took over thiB 20 p l a n t i n '62 you had c e r t a i n f i l e s , did you not? 21 * A Yes. 22 Q When t h e t r a n s f e r was made from Keasbey & 23 M attison to C e rta in T e e d , d id you throw away a l l th o se old O fficial Reporter com pany 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRINC. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 Castleman.CERT001270 153 1 files? 2 A No, I d id n o t . 3 *! Q, Did you keep them a l l ? 4 A I k e p t what I had or what I tho u g h t I needed, ye 5 Q Would i t be f a i r t o say t h a t the i n f o r m a t i o n 6 in terms of documents th a t your department had r e l a t i n g to 7 i n d u s t r ia l hygiene and asb esto s and health p rio r to the take 8 over by CertainTeed was kept a f t e r the takeover by CertainTeec 9 A Yes, i t was. 10 Q. Likewise, of course, you had c e r ta in knowledge 11 y d u r s e lf , personally, th a t you had acquired both from 12 t r a i n i n g , background e x p e r i e n c e and on th e job; r i g h t ? 13 A Yes, d e f in it e ly . 14 Q, N atu rally , you re ta in e d th a t as well with the 15 nw employer? 16 A Yes. 17 MR. HILLY: O b j e c t i o n . 18 MR. MASON: A l l o f i t ? 19 THE WITNESS: I r e t a i n e d what I th o u g h t was 20 necessary and I weeded out what w asn 't necessary, and I 21 d id n 't specify asbestos as being anything d iffe re n t than any 22 o t h e r h a z a r d . A l l h a z a r d s had my a t t e n t i o n and i t s 23 proportionate weight. Offic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 2090a <7*> A A Castleman.CERT001271 15^ 1 Q You r e c o g n i z e th e a b b r e v i a t i o n MAC? 2 A Yes. 3 * Q What does t h a t mean? 4 A I t means maximum a l l o w a b l e c o n c e n t r a t i o n . 5 Q That means the maximum c o n c e n t r a t i o n of a 6 su b stan ce t h a t one i s p erm itted to o p e ra te with what, 7 reasonable sa fe ty or what? 8 A At one time t h a t was th e te rm in o lo g y u se d , which 9 is presently thought of in terms of threshold lim it value. 10 I t makes a connotation th a t i t should not exceed th a t. While 11 th r e s h o ld l i m i t value says y e s , you can exceed i t , but you 12 must b a l a n c e i t w i t h e q u a l time below t h a t and e q u a l w eight 13 below t h a t . So i t ' s a d i f f e r e n t c o n c e p t , th e same and 14 different concept. 15 * Q Did you understand f iv e m i l l i o n p a r t i c l e s per 16 c u b ic f o o t a s o f 196^- t o be th e MAC, th e TLV, o r both? 17 A Yes. . 18 Q Both? 19 A Both, e ith er, both,whatever. 20 Q In o th e r words, a t t h a t p o in t in time you would 21 use the terms interchangeably? 22 A Yes, I believe so. Q, I draw your a t t e n t i o n t o E x h i b i t No. 5 marked 23 : OFFICIAL REPORTER COMPANY * 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001272 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 155 1 t o d a y . Would you ta k e a l o o k a t t h a t f o r a moment. 2 A Right. ,, q That i s the meeting of September 8 and 9, I960? 3 4 A Right. q In the th ir d f u l l paragraph there you were 5 t a l k i n g a b o u t maximum a l l o w a b l e c o n c e n t r a t i o n of f i v e m i l l i o n 6 p artic les per cubic foot of a ir; right? 7 8 A Right. Q Would you t a k e a lo o k , p l e a s e , a t E x h i b i t No. 6 9 10 marked today. 11 A Yes. . That t a l k s a b o u t maximum p e r m i s s i b l e l i m i t s , i n 12 Q 13 No. 1, does i t not? 14 A Yes. 1 you were u sin g th a t term In terch a n g eab ly , were 15 - Q 16 you n o t , w i t h MAC and TLV? A Yes. Q Would you be k in d enough t o l o o k a t No. l 6 , page 2. A * Q A Q Yes. Paragraph 6. Yes. There there i s a discussion th at Involves the . * Of f ic ia l Reporter Company < 1 2 4 0 1 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001273 S I L V E R S P R I N G . M D . 20904 Tel. 5 7 2 - 4 3 2 4 156- 1 words, permissible concentrations (MAC)? 2 A Yes. , - a once again you were using that interchangeably 3 4 with the other words? 5 A Interchangeably. 6 q Was it y o u r understanding as of the early 60s t h a t i f MAC were m a i n t a i n e d , that it would be Improbable t h a t 7 8 asbestosis would occur? A That was the understanding at that time. 9 q And that was not just your understanding, was 10 11 it? In other words, that was understood by other people in 12 your field as well? A It was understood by all industrial hygienists. 13 That was the guideline we all aimed for. 14 ~ 15 Q You have called it at one time a guideline, have used different words. But you are talking about the 16 17 same thing, TLV or MAC? A Right. They are all interchangeable. 18 q was American Mutual, your present employer, was 19 it at one time the workman -s compensation Insurer for the 2( 2' Ambler plant? 9* A Yes. q CertainTeed or Keasbey & Mattison? OFFICIAL REPORTER COMPANY ^ 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001274 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 157 1 A- Keasbey & M attison. 2 Q Did American Mutual make any d u s t c o u n ts a t any 3 time a t the plant? 4 A They d id p r i o r t o my -- 5 Q Prior to your arriv al? 6 A R ight. Then they ap p aren tly had confidence in 7 my r e s u l t s , so they a c c e p t e d my r e s u l t s . 8 Q You say th e y a c c e p t e d them. Did you submit them 9 to them? 10 A Yes. 11 Q When d i d you do t h a t ? 12 A A t.their request. 13 0. Regularly or occasionally? 14 1 15 16 17 A Occasionally. Q As o f t e n a s once a yea r? A As o f t e n a s th e y asked f o r i t . Q Did American Mutual come i n and make i n s p e c t i o n s 18 of the plant? 19 A Yes, they did. 20 * . 21 Q How f r e q u e n t l y was t h a t , a p p r o x im a te l y ? A The s a f e t y man would come p r o b a b l y on the 22 average of once or twice a year. 23 Q The s a f e t y man, would he be sometimes c a l l e d a Official Reporter company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001275 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 158 1 field engineer? 2 3 *: A Yes, he would be. 0, Do you remember what h i s name was, th e f e l l o w 4 from American Mutual? 5 A I n P h i l a d e l p h i a i t was B a l l a n t y n e . 6 Q Do you remember Mr. B a l l a n t y n e ' s f i r s t name? 7 A John, I guess. I r e a lly d o n 't remember. 8 Q A f t e r Mr. B a l l a n t y n e would make h i s i n s p e c t i o n s 9 would he p r o v id e some s o r t o f a r e p o r t back t o you so you 10 would g e t some f e e d b a c k , e i t h e r i n w r i t i n g o r o r a l l y ? 11 A W e ll, remember, I was n o t S a f e t y D i r e c t o r a t the 12 time and he was a s a f e t y man, not the i n d u s t r i a l h y g ie n is t 13 f o r American M u tu a l. He would c a l l i n the i n d u s t r i a l 14 h y g ie n ist from American Mutual. <* t 15 " Q, Who was t h a t ? 16 A T hat was a f e l l o w by the name o f -- I w i l l 17 remember i t i n a. m i n u t e . Shumaker, W illiam Shumaker. 18 Q Do you remember Mr. Shumaker coming i n t o the 19 plant? 20 A Well, he v i s i t e d u s . I j u s t d o n 't remember a 21 ^specific v is it. 22 Q I assume th e v i s i t was o t h e r th a n p u r e l y s o c i a l ? 23 A Yes. Official Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001276 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 159 1 Q What he was t h e r e f o r was w h at, a s you understooc 2 it? 3 ' A To d i s c u s s t h e i n d u s t r i a l h e a l t h problem s. 4 Q Did he e v e r make any s u g g e s t i o n s i n r e g a r d to 5 dust? 6 A We d i s c u s s e d t h e problems i n g e n e r a l , y e s , and 7 he wanted t o know what we were doing and I a d v i s e d him, and 8 he was im p r e s s e d w i t h my f o rm e r e x p e r i e n c e and we became 9 f r i e n d l y and i t was a good r e l a t i o n s h i p t h e r e . 10 Q Was he know ledgeable on th e s u b j e c t of d u s t and 11 h e a l t h ? 12 A Yes. He was i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t f o r American 13 Mutual a t the time. 14 Q Did Mr. Shumaker ev e r f u r n i s h you w ith r e p o r t s * 15 in writing? 16 A No, I d o n ' t remember an i n d u s t r i a l hygiene r e p o r ; 17 Q A fter American Mutual got o ff the r is k , that i s , 18 a f t e r American Mutual was no l o n g e r th e i n s u r e r , who was th e 19 next workman's compensation in s u re r, as f a r as you r e c a ll? 20 A That was CertainTeed and i t was Employers 21 Mutual, I believe. 22 Q And who was t h e h y g i e n i s t t h e n , do you r e c a l l ? 23 A I d o n 't r e c a ll any h y g ien ist v i s i tin g . % Official Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001277 SH.VER SPRING. MD. 20904 ' Tel. 572-4324 160 1 Q Do you remember s u b m i t t i n g any i n f o r m a t i o n i n 2 regard to dust counts to -- 3 * A I didn't. q Who was th e n e x t a f t e r t h a t , so f a r a s you r e c a l :.? 4 A I d o n 't r e c a ll, except for the information I see 5 6 h ere th a t T r a v e le r s was in v o lv e d . q When T r a v e l e r s was I n v o lv e d , d id they e v e r make 7 8 d u st cou n ts or d u st su rveys? A I don't re c a ll that they did. 9 Q Do you e v e r remember s u b m i t t i n g i n f o r m a t i o n to 10 11 them? A I did not submit inform ation to them. 12 Q Do you remember Aetna L i f e & C a s u a l t y a s an 13 insurer a t this plant? 14 A Not as a workman's compensation in su rer. 15 Q Do you remember them a s some o t h e r kind of 16 insurer that related to this plant? 17 A I believe they covered us for group health. 18 Q And d i d t h e y e v e r come t o t h e p l a n t ? 19 A I f they d id , I was not aware of i t . 20 * Q Did you e v e r know th e f i e l d e n g i n e e r out of th e 21 P h ila d e lp h ia o ffic e ? 22 A Of Aetna? 23 Of f ic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive SM VFR SPRING. MD. 2090 castieman.CERT00i278 l6 l 1 Q . Yes. 2 A No. 3 ( q Have you ever at any time known the industrial 4 hygienist at Hartford for Aetna Life & Casualty? 5 A I know them now. I did not know them at the time 6 Q Let me take you back for a moment to the Loss 7 Control Committee while you were at CertainTeed. Is it your 8 understanding that that was a committee one of whose purposes 9 was to control the amount paid out in workman's compensation 10 claims? 11 ' MR. BRUCH: Objection. 12 A Well, that is not -- 13 MR. PONTZ: Excuse me. I would like to object 14 also. I don't believe, and I could be mistaken, I don't 15 Relieve Mr. Horowitz ever testified that there was a Loss 16 Control Committee at CertainTeed. 17 Q Was there a Loss Control Committee at Certain- 18 Teed? 19 A Yes, there was. I'm sorry, not at CertainTeed. 20 I didn't say at CertainTeed. I said there was a Loss Control 21 Committee at Keasbey & Mattison. I don't remember a Loss 22 Control Committee at CertainTeed. 23 Q As to the documents that you have produced that * Official Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001279 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 T el 577.4124 162 1 were marked and that we have gone over today, those are all 2 documents that were generated during the period of time that you were working for these corporations; right? 3 4 A Right. Q And they would be normal memoranda or whatever 5 6 type of document that was sent in the plant at the time; 7 correct? 8 A Right. Q, When you went from Keasbey &Mattison to 9 10 CertainTeed, to the best of your knowledge, sir, was there 11 someone who went to Nicolet to take over their industrial 12 hygiene? . A Nobody went toNicolet to take overindustrial 13 14 hygiene. ~ q 15 . Was there anyone in charge of industrial hygiene 16 at Nicolet, so far as you know? A To my knowledge, there was no one in charge of 17 18 industrial hygiene. Q Did they ever consult with you on the subject, 19 20 Nicolet? * a They never consulted with me. Well, Fred 21 Bickel went with Nicolet and he was an engineer and he may 22 have discussed their dust collecting systems, but not 23 Of f ic ia l reporter Company 12401 Palermo. Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 ' Castleman.CERT001280 163 1 Industrial hygiene per se, and he was not an industrial 2 hygienist. 3 * Q, Would you call him a dust engineer? 4 A No, he was not a dust engineer. 5 Q Is Mr. May living, do you know, Art May? 6 A I was told by one of the lawyers that he was 7 still living, that his testimony had been taken already. But 8 that is not for me to say, Is It. 9 Q But you don't know where he is or what he is 10 doing? 11 * t a I had no contact with him since the day I left ' 12 the company. - 13 Q During the period of time that you were in 14 charge of industrial hygiene and dust control for CertainTeed 15 would you have occasion to review the dust counts or dust 16 surveys taken in the plant? 17 A I did them. 18 Q You did themyourself? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And did they on occasion exceed five million 21 particles per cubic foot? 22 MR. BRUCH: Objection. 23 A They exceeded on occasion five million. O ffic ia l R epo rter Com pany ** 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001281 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 161* 1 q Five million? 2 A Yes. 3 Q When you determined thatthey wereexceeding 4 five million particles per cubic foot didyoualways do 5 something about it? 6 A I reported -- I 'd like to make you understand. 7 Remember, it was a guide. No one result was the stimulus for 8 Immediate action. The thing had to be evaluated more than 9 just by the dust count. I made my evaluation and if I though; 10 it needed correction based on that evaluation -- as an 9 11 industrial hygienist, I don't use just a sample as a guide. 12 After all, that is a ten-minute sample. I use more than that. 13 When I thought there was need for correction, I reported it 14 to my supervisors, yes. 15 Q And what did you tell them or ask them to do 16 about it? 17 A I would make recommendation as to what they 18 should do about it. 19 Q Such as? A Such as either improve an existing system, change a dust collector because it wasn't the right size, fix a fan or a motor or what have you, or put in a system where one didn't exist. * OFFICIAL R eporter Company castleman.CERT001282 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 2090a 165 1 MR. RUBIN: Excuse me. Did this question relate 2 to Keasbey & Mattison? 3* 4 THE WITNESS: It relates to both. MR. RUBIN: Your answer relates to both? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 MR. RUBIN: Thank you. 7 Q Did you ever suggest the wearing of respirators 8 In a particular job? 9 A The respirator program was mine, yes. On a 10 particular job, you are asking? 11 * Q On a particular job? 12 A As an industrial hygienist, I don't prefer 13 respirators as a primary method of control. I would 14 recommend dust respirators only where engineering was 15 impossible and it was a temporary job. So I would recommend 16 it for maintenance people or anybody who had to go into the 17 dust collector to fix it. But I did not recommend 18 respirators as a primary method of control. I recommended 19 a respirator program only until engineering methods could be 20 used. * Q When did you recommend that respirator program? 21 A If I found counts to be high and I evaluated 22 that it was a bad condition, I would recommend that they use 23 Offic ia l Reporter company 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 n r _ i C*T -i Castleman.CERT001283 166 1 I t u n til they improved i t . 2 q Was the program t h a t you recommended i n I960 3 p(it in to e f f e c t then? 4 A Not t o t a l l y . q, What p a r t of i t was n o t p u t i n t o e f f e c t . 5 6 A Well, certain parts like individual personal l o c a t i o n s , p e r s o n a l r e s p i r a t o r s , t h i n g s l i k e t h a t . They may 7 8 n o t have p u t i t i n i n every l o c a t i o n . I t was a g e n e ra l 9 d i r e c t i v e , r a t h e r than a s p e c i f i c d i r e c t i v e , so i f i t was or 10 i t wasn't is d iffic u lt to say. 11 " q Did you ever face the s i t u a t i o n where the 12 r e s p i r a t o r program you recommended was n o t put i n t o e f f e c t and you had t o recommend i t a second tim e? 13 A No. As I s a y , I d i d n ' t lo o k a t a r e s p i r a t o r 14 15 program a s a means of dust c o n tr o l. q Well, i t would not be a means of d u st co n tro l, 16 17 would i t ? 18 A I t i s not, no. Q Did you look a t i t -- 19 A I t i s a means of reducing exposure to a 20 p a r tic u la r person but i s not a means of d u st c o n tro l. 21 q Was t h e r e e v e r an o c c a s i o n when, a l t h o u g h you 22 had recommended a r e s p i r a t o r program, i t was n o t put in to 23 O fficial R epo r ter C om pany 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 2090a T.. C71 A l'iA Castleman.CERT001284 167 1 effect? 2 MR. BRUCH: O b j e c t i o n . What time p e r i o d a r e 3 you t a lk in g about? 4 Q While you were with CertainTeed? 5 A I was n o t a policeman i n t h a t a r e a , so I d i d n ' t 6 s e a r c h f o r t h a t ty p e o f t h i n g . So I c a n ' t say w h e th e r i t was 7 or i t w asn't. 8 Q, Xs i t your r e c o l l e c t i o n t h a t the I9 6 0 , October 9 1 3 , I 960 r e s p i r a t o r program was put i n t o e f f e c t a t t h a t time? 10 A X c a n ' t respond to t h a t , t h a t i t was or w a s n 't. 11 * q Would you ta k e a lo o k a t E x h i b i t No. 20, page 3* 12 the l a s t paragraph. 13 A Right. 14 Q Did you n o t end t h a t memorandum t o Mr. Simons: 15 *It i s im portant th a t a r e s p i r a t o r program be i n i t i a t e d 16 s im ila r to the one suggested by the attac h ed sh eet dated 17 October 1 3 / i 960"? 18 A Y es. What a b o u t t h a t ? 19 Q I s i t your understanding that the program of 20 October 13, i 960 was i n f a c t i n i t i a t e d i n i 960? Or i s i t 21 n o t t r u e , s i r , t h a t two y e a r s l a t e r you were s t i l l t r y i n g to 22 g et i t ado p ted by the company? 23 MR. BRUCH: O b j e c t i o n . Official Reporter Company * 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001285 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 168 1 A W e ll, a s I sa y, X was n o t a policeman The 2 only time I would respond to the program would be i f I 3 'found dust counts in an area where they should have been 4 wearing r e s p i r a t o r s . Then I would r e p o r t t h a t th e r e should 5 have been r e s p ir a to rs as per program. Right. 6 q Horowitz No. 20 i s a c o n f i d e n t i a l memorandum on 7 d u s t r e s p i r a t o r s , use t h e r e o f , dated A p r i l 5* `62; r i g h t ? 8 A Right. 9 Q And i n t h e second p a r a g r a p h you say: "There 10 w i l l a l w a y s be many p l a c e s where p o t e n t i a l e x p o s u re to 11 harmful concentrations of atmospheric contaminants w ill 12 exist." Right?. 13 A Right. 14 Q Then a t t h e end, a f t e r you d i s c u s s v a r i o u s ite m s 15 "in th e p l a n t , you end up s a y i n g : " I t i s i m p o r t a n t t h a t a 16 r e s p i r a t o r program be i n i t i a t e d s im ila r to the one suggested 17 by the attac h ed sheet dated October 13, I9 6 0 ." Right? 18 A Correct. 19 MR. BRUCH: O b je c t i o n . 20 Q The re a so n f o r t h a t i s they d i d n ' t i n i t i a t e the 21 "program i n O c to b e r, I 9 6 0 . R i g h t , s i r ? 22 MR. BRUCH: O b je c t i o n . 23 Q I s t h a t n o t so? O fficial Re^ 12401 SI rter Company mo Drive Castleman.CERT001286 G. MD. 20904 75-4324 169 1 A I d i d n ' t f o llo w t h i s up as i f i t were a d i r e c t i v e 2 t h a t needed f o l l o w i n g up. T h is was a c o n s u l t a t i v e p ie c e of 3 advice to a l l the managers. 4 Q W e ll, you knew i n '6 2 , when you s a i d t h a t , t h a t 5 o b v i o u s l y i t had n o t been p u t i n , d i d n ' t you, when you s a id 6 i t should be in itia te d ? 7 MR. HILLY: I object to the form. 8 MR. BRUCH: Objection. 9 A Apparently, my consultative advice to them was 10 that here is our respirator program, please follow it, at 11 the time. 12 Q. That isn't what you said, though, was it? 13 A It didn't say that I knew they didn't do it, 14 but it did say that I feel this is a program that we should ft 15 all do. 16 Q What you are telling us now is that when you 17 said In the last paragraph there, "It is important that a 18 r e s p i r a t o r program be i n i t i a t e d s im ila r to the one suggested 19 by t h e a t t a c h e d s h e e t d a t e d October 13 I 9 6 0 , " t h a t i t was 20 your understanding then that It already was in effect for two * 21 years, is that right? 22 A An interpretation like that could be made. 23 That Is right. .OFFICE r e p o r t e r COMPANY J01 Palermo Drive ER SPRING. MD. 20904 Castleman.CERT001287 170 1 Q It could? 2 A It could be made. Sure. 3 q Now let me ask you something else. Take a look, 4 If you would, please, at that attachment to No. 20 and also 5 take a look at Horowitz No. 6. 6 A Yes. 7 q You mentioned before that in paragraph No. 4 8 certain language was added about clean containers being 9 provided; right? 10 A Right. 11 * Q But there are other changes as well, aren't 12 there, between No. 6 and the attachment to 20? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Well, for one thing, K & M Is crossed out and 15 CPC is put in in several places; right? 16 A Right. 17 Q And for another thing, there is a note on the 18 bottom: "Note: This memorandum was Issued in I960 and must 19 be strictly enforced." Right? 20 A That is right. * q And y our n o t e n e x t t o i t h a s d a t e s of 12-6-67 21 22 and 8-9-67? 23 A Right. Offic ia l Reporter Company ^ 12-401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001288 SILVER SPR IN G . M D. 2090a Tel. 572-4324 171 1 Q 2 you? You a l s o made a change I n p a r a g r a p h 1, d i d n ' t 3 , A Yes. I added som e th in g . I made a change from 4 Keasbey & Mattison to CertainTeed Products Corporation. 5 Q And o r i g i n a l l y th e way p a r a g r a p h 1 re a d was: 6 "Dust r e s p i r a t o r s must be used by K & M personnel a t a l l 7 operations involving the use of s ilic a , cement, mica, talc 8 and asb esto s d u s t." That i s a l l i t said; rig h t? 9 A Right. . 10 Q And the p l a i n meaning o f t h a t t o you, s i r , and 11 to anyone e l s e re a d in g i t , would be t h a t you wanted 12 r e s p i r a t o r s worn a t a l l o p e r a tio n s where th e r e were these 13 various things, including asbestos dust; right? 14 MR. BRUCH: O b j e c t i o n . 15 - MR. HILLY: O b je c tio n t o t h e form. 16 A Right. 17 Q Was t h a t bec auser e a d i n g s were c o n s i d e r a b l y . 18 over five m illion p a rtic le s per cubic foot in those days? 19 A No, b ec au se I was n e g l i g e n t I n b eing thorough; 20 and when I improved i t t h e n e x t tim e , I made s u r e i t 21 followed the philosophy I suggested to you, that i t should 22 be used where d u s t c o n t r o l i s n o t s u f f i c i e n t . So I w asn' t 23 clear the f i r s t time. Official R e f 12401 SILV 2t e r Company mo Drive MD. irion* .4 1 7 A Castleman.CERT001289 172 1 Q And i n '6 7 , a t l e a s t , when t h i s went o u t , the 2 words: "where dust control i s not s u f fic ie n t to maintain 3 a i r b o r n e d u s t c o n c e n t r a t i o n s below maximum p e r m i s s i b l e l i m i t s 4 A Correct. 5 q And i s n ' t t h a t th e f i r s t time t h a t t h i s 6 memorandum a c t u a l l y e v e r i s s u e d a f t e r you added t h o s e words? 7 A In a ll likelihood, yes. . 8 MR. BROMBERG: No f u r t h e r q u e s t i o n s . 9 MR. GUSKY: No q u e s t i o n s . 10 <5i 11 ` MS. BOWMAN: No q u e s t i o n s . MR. BEERS: Wouldyou mark t h a t e x h i b i t . 12 (Horowitz D e p o s i tio n E x h i b i t No. 26 13 was m arked.) 14 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT CASSIAR 15 BY MR. BEERS: 16 Q Mr. Horowitz, would you take a look a t an 17 e x h ib it t h a t has been marked Horowitz 26. 18 A Right. 19 Q Have you ever seen t h a t document b e fo re ? 20 # 21 A Yes, I have. ' q Would you t e l l u s what i t i s ? 22 A Apparently, It is a table of organization, I 23 guess you would call it that, of Keasbey & Mattison Company \ P F tfiA i Rr ITER COMPANY Castleman.CERT001290 t2 4 f n Drive S1LVEK * MD 173 a t the time I worked th e re . Q Was t h i s a document t h a t was k ep t I n y our personal f i l e a t Keasbey & Mattlson? A Yes. Q Do you know w hether you r e c e i v e d i t a b o u t the time t h a t i t was I s s u e d on October 1, i 960? A Probably a l i t t l e a f te r th at, yes Q name? Do you see the h a n d w r i t t e n c i r c l e a r o u n d your A I c irc le d th a t. Yes. 11 ' Q You c i r c l e d t h a t ? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Did you c i r c l e t h a t back when you were w ith 14 Keasbey & M attlson? 15 i A I don't recall. 16 Did I c i r c l e I t when I was w i t h you, Ms. Gibson? 17 MS. GIBSON: I d o n ' t r e c a l l e i t h e r . 18 A I d o n ' t r e c a l l . I d o n ' t r e c a l l why i t ' s 19 c i r c l e d . I t h i n k I c i r c l e d i t t o i n d i c a t e t h a t i t shows 20 I n d u s tr ia l Hygiene and P roject Engineer but d o e s n 't say Dust 21 C ontrol E n g in e e r. I was h ir e d e a r l i e r t h a t yea r a s a Dust 22 C o n tro l E n g i n e e r and th rough my own e f f o r t s and w i t h the 23 acceptance of th e company, performed as an I n d u s t r i a l Hygiene O fficial Reporter Com pany 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRIN G . M D. T,,1 jITi-iA 20904 Castleman.CERT001291 174 1 Engineer, but I functioned as a Dust Control Engineer. 2 Q Does t h i s , so f a r as you can r e c a l l , f a i r l y 3 represent the o rg an izatio n al stru c tu re of Keasbey & Mattison? 4 A I believe I t does, yes. 5 Q, As o f i 960. X ta k e I t the answer t o t h a t i s y e s ' 6 A Yes. I thought I said yes. 7 Q One more q u e s t i o n , Mr. H o ro w itz. Do you remembei 8 th e r e p o r t o f th e New York Academy m e eting t h a t you r e f e r r e d 9 to e a rlie r today? 10 A Yes. 1964? j. . 11 Q. R i g h t . You s a i d you had a copy of y o u r r e p o r t 12 i n your p e r s o n a l f i l e now? 13 A I have a copy o f my r e p o r t . 14 Q Would you be w i l l i n g t o m a i l a copy t o Ms. Gibson 15 w ith a s h o r t c o v e r i n g n o t e s a y i n g what i t i s t h a t you a r e 16 m a i l i n g t o h e r ? ' 17 A I would be w i l l i n g to do t h a t . 18 Q Thank you. 19 MR. BEERS: C o u n s e l, I am going to r e p r e s e n t on 20 the r e c o r d t h a t when Ms. Gibson r e c e i v e s t h a t she w i l l make 21 a copy i m m e d i a t e l y o f Mr. H o r o w i t z ' s c o v e r i n g n o t e and of 22 th a t single document and w ill mail i t to a l l counsel of 23 r e c o r d . I p ro p o s e we w orry a b o u t what to do a b o u t * Of f ic ia l R eporter Com pany castleman.CERT001292 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 175 1 admissibility after we have all taken a look at it. 2 I have n o t h i n g f u r t h e r . W ell, l e t me a s k one 3 more q u e s t i o n . 4 Q Mr. H orow itz, I want to a s k you one c a t c h - a l l 5 q u e s t i o n a b o u t th e documents t h a t we have seen today t h a t you 6 have produced f o r u s , E x h i b i t s Nos. 1 th rough 26. To the 7 best of your re c o lle c tio n , are they true and accurate copies 8 of documents th a t you kept in your personal f i l e in the 9 ordinary course of your work fo r Keasbey & Mattison or 10 C e rt a in T e e d ? 11 A They are true copies of records of my function 12 d e s c r i b i n g some of my work t h e r e , y e s . 13 Q At Keasbey & Mattison and CertainTeed? 14 A Right. % 15 " MR. BEERS: Thank you. 16 MR. RUBIN: Mr. B e e r s , you e a r l i e r made some 17 type of representation on the record with regard to other 18 documents in the witness's file. Are you now retracting 19 that and saying you are only going to make available the one 20 document that he Is sending to your office? 21 * MR. BEERS: I have no plans to go to Massachuset 22 and look for other documents In Mr. Horowitz's file. I 23 thought we would begin simply by obtaining that one report v Of f ic ia l Reporter Company castieman.CERT00i293 12401 Palermo Drive ' R SPRING. MD. 2090* 176 1 t h a t he i d e n t i f i e d and c i r c u l a t i n g i t t o c o u n s e l f o r comment. 2 MR. RUBIN: Would you a g r e e i f i n th e f u t u r e you should have occasion to obtain other documents from h is 3 4 f i l e , you w i l l make them a v a i l a b l e t o o t h e r c o u n s e l? 5 MR. BEERS: Yes. 6 MR. RUBIN: Thank you. EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 7 8 BY MR. RUBIN: q Hr. H o ro w itz, when you were employed by the 9 10 D i v i s i o n of I n d u s t r i a l H ygiene, th e New York Department of 11 L a b o r , I assume s i n c e you were v i s i t i n g some a s b e s t o s f a c i l i t i e s you had some knowledge of a s b e s t o s d i s e a s e s a t 12 13 th at time? 14 A Yes. " q What time p e r i o d was t h a t , s i r ? 15 A I worked fo r them between 19^7 and 1956. 16 q What was y our knowledge a t t h a t tim e , s i r , pf 17 18 asbestos diseases? A I hope I had the p re v a ilin g knowledge, which 19 was i t was one of the hazardous m a t e r i a l s t h a t could cause 2( a lung disease, pneumoconiosis, called asbestosis. 21 q And how d i d you a c q u i r e t h a t knowledge? 2i A By t h e f a c t t h a t i t e x i s t e d a s a t h r e s h o l d l i m i t 2! % o f f ic ia l Reporter Com pany castieman.CERT00i294 ' 12401 Palermo Drive . SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 177 1 v a lu e or.MAC I n th e l i s t made a n n u a l l y by th e American 2 Conference of Governmental and I n d u s tr ia l H ygienists, and the 3 knowledge acquired from other people working In the area in 4 my o f f i c e . 5 Q Had you r e a d any s t u d i e s or p u b l i c a t i o n s d e a l i n g 6 with asbestos health hazards as of that time? . 7 A Not as p o in te d ly more of a problem than, l e t ' s 8 say, s i l i c o s i s . S i l i c o s i s to us was more of a problem 9 because many more people were exposed. 10 Q, But you had re a d some m e d ic a l a r t i c l e s or 11 s c i e n t i f i c a r t i c l e s on a s b e s t o s - r e l a t e d d i s e a s e s ? 12 A Since i t w asn't a dominant area or an area of 13 m ajor c o n c e r n , I d o n ' t r e c a l l r e a d i n g too much a b o u t i t . 14 Q When you say you d o n ' t r e c a l l r e a d i n g too much, 15 I^ in fe r you read something about i t ? 16 A I re a d something about I t . I t was Included in 17 a l l of the t e x t s as one of the pneumoconiosis d is e a s e s . 18 Q, Had you a t t e n d e d any se m in ars o r l e c t u r e s w ith 19 regard to asbestos-related diseases as of that time, prior 20 to 1956? 21 * ^ No. There were none t h a t I was aware of. 22 Q Was i t covered i n th e g e n e r a l pneum oconiosis 23 se m in ars o r c l a s s e s you may have a t t e n d e d p r i o r t o ' 56? t Offic ia l Reporter com pany H 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001295 SILVER SPRING. MD. 2090 T ol S 77.4124 178 1 A I t was covered a s a g e n e r a l pneum oconiosis 2 disease, yes. 3 " q When I say covered I am t a l k i n g a b o u t a t a forma. 4 se m inar or program t h a t you may have a t t e n d e d . . 5 A Any t e a c h i n g c l a s s , any l e c t u r e s , any t e x t s , i t 6 was in c lu d e d a s one of the pneumoconiosis d i s e a s e s , y e s . 7 Q P rio r to 1956 were you aware of the 8 p o s s i b i l i t y of a r e la tio n s h ip between a s b e s to s is and cancer? 9 A I was n o t aware of t h a t . 10 q You had n o t r e a d any of the s c i e n t i f i c or f' 11 m e d ic a l a r t i c l e s d e a l i n g w i t h t h a t t o p i c ? 12 A I had not read anything r e la tin g to cancer. 13 Q Aside from reading, did you have any knowledge 14 p r i o r t o 1956 of a p o s s i b l e c o n n e c ti o n between a s b e s t o s and * 15 cancer? 16 A I had no knowledge a t a l l to th a t e f f e c t . 17 Q When you started with Keasbey & Mattison in 18 i 960, how many plants were there in Ambler that were under 19 your jurisdiction? I am just talking about Ambler now. 20 A I t h i n k I mentioned i t b e f o r e . There was a 21 sh ingle p l a n t , which was P lan t 1, I th in k ; a P la n t 4, which 22 covered I n s u l a t i o n a s w ell as asbestos paper and rubber products; and then a Plant 8, which covered asb esto s cement. 23 OFFICIAL REPORTER COMPANY 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Castleman.CERT001296 179 1 That i s a l l I r e c a l l . And a r e s e a r c h -- I d o n ' t know whether 2 the r e s e a r c h b u i l d i n g had been b u i l t y e t . X am n o t s u r e . 3 q As of t h a t tim e , i n I960, what ty p e of d u s t 4 control devices were there in each of those three plants? 5 A They had d u s t c o l l e c t i n g d e v i c e s , hoods b u i l t 6 around the devices, the c u ttin g machines th a t would cut the 7 product or break i t or whatever, with duct work leading to 8 dust collectors. 9 Q, In ea ch of t h e p l a n t s ? - 10 A In each of the plants. 11 * q Did you observe whether any of the d u st 12 c o l l e c t i n g d e v ic e s were more modern or newer i n any one p la n t 13 than th e o th e r two p l a n t s ? 14 15 16 A Yes. Q, Which would you say were more modern? A I w i l l take i t the o th e r way and say which were 17 l e a s t modern. P la n t k was the l e a s t modern. 18 Q. Did you observe, v i s i b l y observe d u st in the a i r 19 i n any o f th e t h r e e p l a n t s i n i 960, when you would go i n t o 20 the plants? 21 a I t ' s a subjective evaluation, but of course I 22 observed dust, yes. 23 Q Was i t more o b s e rv a b le i n one o r more of the O fficial R eporter Com pany 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 2090r Tel. 572-4324 Castleman.CERT001297 1BO 1 plants? 2 A That i s a hard question to ask an in d u s tria l 3 " h y g i e n i s t because I d o n ' t depend on v i s u a l o b s e r v a t i o n . I t 4 is a d if fic u lt thing to answer. 5 q L et me change i t a l i t t l e b i t . Did you c o n s i d e r 6 one of the p l a n t s , one of those th ree p l a n t s , more dusty 7 from an in d u s tr ia l h y g ie n is t's standpoint? 8 A Yes, I would. 9 Q Which one? 10 A Plant 4. 11 q And which would be n e x t , from d u s t i n e s s t o l e a s t 12 d u s t y ? 13 A Plant 1, probably, the shingle p lan t. 14 Q And P l a n t 8 would be the l e a s t d u s t y ? 15 A That was p robably because i t was a newer p l a n t . 16 Yes. 17 Q Was i t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t P l a n t 8 was 18 b u i l t i n th e l a t e *30s o r e a r l y '40s? 19 A I b e l i e v e i t was a newer p l a n t , y es, and the 20 equipment was a l i t t l e more modern than th e o t h e r s . I am 21 ^ta lk in g a b o u t d u s t c o l l e c t i n g equipm ent. I am l i m i t i n g i t ( 22 to that. 23 Q I u n d e r s t a n d . Now, a s of 1962, when X fficial Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001298 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 *T*_I ? 7 Y A \ - ) A 181 1 C e r t a in T e e d and N I c o l e t came In and p u rc h a s e d a s s e t s from 2 Keasbey & M a ttison, what was your u n d e rsta n d in g a s to each 3 of those p la n ts as to what happened to them, the three p la n ts - , 4 t h a t we have been t a l k i n g a b o u t ? 5 A I have no r e a l i n - d e p t h knowledge. A ll I know 6 i s t h a t I was r e t a i n e d by C e rta in T e e d f o r the a s b e s t o s cement 7 p l a n t s , which meant the p ipe p l a n t in Ambler -- t h a t was the 8 only p la n t in Ambler-- and the other pipe p la n ts in the oth er 9 cities. 10 Q , Do you know w h e th e r N i c o l e t purchased and kept 11 i n o p e r a t i o n P l a n t s 1 and *4? 12 A I f 1 was the s h in g l e p l a n t , t h a t had been 13 d i s m a n t l e d a few y e a r s p r i o r , maybe a y e a r p r i o r t o t h a t , I 14 b e l i e v e . I t h i n k 1 d id n o t e x i s t , 1 was d i s m a n t l e d , i f i t 15 wfis t h e s h i n g l e p l a n t . I am n o t s u r e a b o u t t h a t . 16 But 4 was bought by N i c o l e t . And what was the 17 question about that? 18 q Let me a s k you s e v e r a l q u e s t i o n s a b o u t t h a t . 19 With regard to what you re fe rre d to as Plant 4 20 a t the tim e, d id t h a t c o n s i s t of one b u i l d i n g or more than 21 qpe b u ild in g ? 22 A I t was a l i n e of -- you can c a l l i t one b ig 23 b u ild in g , or since they had sev eral manufacturing a rea s you O fficial r epo r ter Co m pany % 12401 Palertn Drive Castleman.CERT001299 SILVER SPRING. MD. 209IH TeL 572-4324 182 1 could c a l l I t ad jo in in g b u ild in g s . But you could walk through 2 I t lik e one big warehouse. 3- Q There was no p a r t of P l a n t 4 t h a t was not 4 connected to another part? 5 A No, I d o n ' t r e c a l l any p a r t of P l a n t 4 t h a t was 6 not connected; right. 7 q Were you f a m i l i a r w i t h what had been P l a n t No. 2 8 p r i o r t o th e time t h a t you came t h e r e ? 9 A I f you r e c a l l to me where P l a n t No. 2 was, maybe 10 I can answer th a t. 11 q P l a n t No. 2 was f u r t h e r down the r a i l r o a d 12 tracks towards Philadelphia, behind Plant 4. 13 A W e ll, maybe t h a t i s what I am c o n s i d e r i n g a s one 14 p l a n t . Was t h a t r u b b e r m a n u f a c t u r i n g ? 15 * Q, They did ru b b e r m a n u f a c t u r i n g . 16 A Then, y e s , I was f a m i l i a r w i t h t h a t . 17 Q, Do you c o n s i d e r t h a t a s p a r t o f P l a n t 4? A My r e c o l l e c t i o n d o e s n ' t ~ I d o n ' t remember the 18 19 numbers. I c o n s i d e r e d t h a t a l l one p l a n t and I tho u g h t t h a t 20 went w ith N i c o l e t , so I c o n s id e r t h a t one p l a n t . 21 * q were you f a m ilia r with what had been called 22 P l a n t No. 5 a s o f the time you came? 23 A Where was t h a t ? O fficial repo r ter c o m pa n y 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001300 r 'LV ER SPRING. M D . 209CM Tel. 572-4324 183 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 q- There had b, een a _ Plan^ Nwoo*. 5 j 3-ft Ambler. A What d id th e y do i n t h a t p l a n t ? . a X b e l i e v e t h a t was th e t e x t i l e p l a n t . A T hen i t w a s p r io r to my tim e b e c a u s e th e t e x t i l e p x a n t h ad b een m oved from t h a t a r e a , w h ic h w as in w h at I c a l l P l a n t 4 , t o M e r e d it h , New H a m p s h ir e , b e f o r e my t im e , a n d t h a t w a s c a l l e d P l a n t No. 10 i n M e r e d i t h . q No,, , d id y o u b e g in u p g r a d in g , im p r o v in g o r r e p la c in g d u st c o n t r o l sy ste m s o r d e v ic e s in an y on e o f th e th r e e p la n t s m ore so th an th e o th e r s , w hen you w ere i n i t i a l l y | h ir e d in i9 6 0 ? A W h e n you s a y th e th ree p la n ts you are ta lk in g a b o u t P la n t 8 , P la n t 4 and -- r~ ' q P la n t 1 . \ A p l a n t 1 was the s h in g le p l a n t ? q That was the s h in g l e . A I th in k to th e s h in g le p la n t n o t to o m uch a t t e n t io n w as p a id b e c a u se th e r e w as a b ig q u e s tio n a s to ,, h e th e r th e y w o u ld c o n tin u e w ith i t , an d th e r e w as n o t to o mu=h d u s t c o n t r o l d o n e b y me in t h a t p l a n t . X t h in k m ore ftas d o n e in P la n t 8 , a lth o u g h I h ad a b ig a s s ig n m e n t to e v a lu a te th e p o o r d u st c o n d itio n s in P la n t 4 . q D id y o u in f a c t f in d t h a t t h e r e w ere - d id y o u OFFICIAL REPORTER COMPANY 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001301 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 184 1 use the word poor d u s t c o n d i t i o n s in P la n t 4? 2 A I t was, yes. 3 * Q That i s what you concluded? 4 A Yes. 5 Q With regard to theex h ib itsthat have been 6 marked h e r e to d a y , d i d you or Mr. B e e r 3 d e te r m in e which of 7 your p erso n a l papers to mark and which were not marked as 8 exhibits? 9 A Ms. Gibson came t o my o f f i c e w i t h m in u t e s o f 10 m e e ti n g s t o t h e ATI and p r i o r t o t h a t had asked me i f I had 11 any correspondence re la tin g to th is p a rtic u la r subject or 12 h e a r i n g o r what have you, and I b r o u g h t my r e s p o n s e s -- t h a t 13 I s , my c o r r e s p o n d e n c e r e l a t i n g to th o se m e e ti n g s and a few 14 co rrespondence t h a t I thought was p e r t i n e n t to the s u b j e c t , * 15 to her a t that time. 16 Q, W e ll, how d id i t ev o lv e t h a t t h e s e documents 17 th at have been marked and th a t were part of your personal 18 f i l e s were i n f a c t marked and some o t h e r documents were not 19 produced today? Who d ec ided which were t o be produced and 20 which were not? 21 * A The documents I j u s t mentioned t h a t I thought 22 were p e r t i n e n t , some of which responded t o th e ATI m e e ti n g s , 23 by d a t e s . So t h e y showed my r e s p o n s e t o t h o s e , p l u s a few ^ Official Reporter company r 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001302 S I L V E R S P R I N G . MD. 20904 T.i \r > .A v n 185 1 o t h e r s were shown t o Ms. Gibson, a s I had i n d i c a t e d t h a t I 2 would, and Ms. Gibson chose the ones t o be marked, to be 3 taken. 4 . Q, I f I understand your testimony co rrectly , your 5 e n t i r e f i l e was n o t shown t o Mr. B e ers or Mrs. Gibson or 6 anyone from th a t o ffic e ? 7 A No. 8 Q W i l l you t u r n t o E x h i b i t No. 1, p l e a s e . 9 A Yes. 10 Q. I s I t your u n d e rsta n d in g t h a t E x h i b i t No. 1 I s 11 a ' 'proposed s t u d y t h a t was proposed by th e I n d u s t r i a l Hygiene 12 F o u n d atio n i n P i t t s b u r g h f o r ATI? 13 A No. 14 Q That i s not your understanding of what i t is? 15 * A T h at i s n o t my u n d e r s t a n d i n g , no. W e ll, I 16 d o n ' t know. I d o n ' t know much a b o u t t h i s . I t p r e c e d e d , 17 a p p a r e n t l y p r e c e d e d my coming t o th e company. 18 Q And you d o n ' t r e c a l l how -- 19 A But a p p a re n tly i t saysthey were approached by 20 the In d u stria l -- I w asn't in the a c tiv ity of th is 21 p a r t i c u l a r memorandum. In o th e r words, I found i t somewhere, 22 I d o n ' t know w h ere. I t may have been one o f the q u e s t i o n s 23 was i f I found any p r e v i o u s c o r r e s p o n d e n c e . I t may have O fficial repo rter Com pany 12401 Palermo Drive S lL V r "' S P R I N G . M D . 20904 `AHA Castleman.CERT001303 186 1 been th e r e . I d o n 't know. 2 Q I s i t your understanding, s i r , that th is 3 p rop osed s tu d y by IHF was i n f a c t turned down by th e 4 Asbestos Textile In stitu te ? 5 A I have no knowledge to th at e f f e c t a t a l l . 6 Q Do you have an y know ledge a s t o w h eth er or n o t 7 a study was e v e r done f o r the Asbestos T e x t i l e I n s t i t u t e by 8 the In d u s tria l Hygiene Foundation? 9 A I f th e r e was one d on e, I n ev er saw i t . 10 Q Did you ev er hear about one? 11 * A No, I d id n 't hear about i t . 12 0 I take i t from your testim on y th a t your f i r s t knowledge about the p o s s i b i l it y of a lin k between a sb e sto s 13 or a s b e s t o s i s and c a n c e r o c c u r r e d i n and around i 960? 14 * 15 ' A Y es. 16 Q You had n o t r ea d a n y th in g p r io r t o i 960, any 17 s c i e n t i f i c o r m e d ic a l a r t i c l e s d e a lin g w ith th a t? 18 A N o. I t came a s a s u r p r is e to me. 19 Q Had you b een r e c e i v i n g th e I n d u s t r i a l H ygiene 20 F oundation D i g e s t p r i o r t o i 960? * a 1 had no r e la tio n with the In d u s tr ia l Hygiene 21 F o u n d atio n b e f o r e I j o i n e d th e company. No. I knew they 22 23 ex isted . 12401 Palermo DriCve0MPANY Castleman.CERT001304 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 r 17^ 187 1 q Did you receiv e copies of the minutes of the 2 general meeting of the Asbestos Textile I n s titu te to review 3 when you were w i t h Keasbey & M a ttis o n ? 4 A No. The only m in u t e s I r e c e i v e d were on th e 5 Air Hygiene Committee. q Do you know w h e th e r Keasbey & M a ttis o n r e c e i v e d 6 7 the minutes from the general meetings? 8 A No, I do n o t know t h a t . q Would you be t h e f i r s t one t o g e t th e A i r 9 Hygiene Committee m in u t e s o r d i d th e y come to you from 10 11 someone e l s e a t Keasbey & M attison? A I b e l i e v e th e y were m a ile d t o me d i r e c t l y . 12 q What would you do w ith them a f t e r you reviewed 13 14 them? * 15 A I d o n ' t know. I wrote a r e p o r t a s a r e s u l t of my v i s i t s t o th e m e e t i n g s . In f a c t , I d i d n ' t have a copy o f 16 the m in u t e s of th e m e e tin g i n my f i l e , so I may have passed 11 them on w i t h my r e p o r t . I d o n ' t Know. A ll I had i n my If 1` r e c o r d s was my r e p o r t on the m e e ti n g . q Who would you have pas sed on the m i n u t e s of th e 21 2 Air Hygiene Committee to ? 2: A Mr. Spedding. q And I assume you d o n ' t know what happened to OFFICIAL REPORTER COMPANY * 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001305 SILVER SPRING, MD. 20904 T e l 572-4324 188 them a f t e r he g o t them? A E x cep t f o r th e few o c c a s io n s where I saw a n o te t h a t he p a s se d i t on - a t l e a s t , my r e p o r t on t o Mr. S c h n e id e r . q I f you w o u ld , s i r , tu rn t o E x h ib it N o. 6 . I am referrin g to the f ir s t paragraph. What were th e o p e r a tio n s in v o lv in g th e u se of silica ? A S i l i c a was u se d t o make cem en t f o r th e a s b e s t o s cement produ cts. - q So th a t would o n ly have been used in P lan t No. to your knowledge? A And th e s h i n g l e p l a n t . q S ilic a was a ls o used in P lan t No. 1? % A That i s a sb e sto s cem ent, to o , in P lant No. 1. I assume your answer fo r op era tio n s in v o lv in g th e u se o f cem ent w ould be th e same? A Y es. q What a b o u t m ic a , what o p e r a tio n s a t Keasbey & M attison in v o lv ed the use of mica? * 21 a I b e l i e v e th e one roofing p la n t th e y had used 22 m ica. 23 Q P la n t No. 1? OFFICIAL REPORTER COMPANY % 2401 P a le r m o Drive R SPRING. MD. 20904 Castleman.CERT001306 -r.l 189 1 A No. P e r t h Amboy. Q . Not the shingle p la n t but the ro o fin g plant? 2 3! * A 4 q Yes. And what a b o u t t a l c , where was t h a t used? 5 A Talc l a used In the rubber p l a n t and could be 6 used in the roofing plan t. I don't re c a ll sp ecifically 7 where i t was used t h e r e , b u t i t could be u se d i n th o s e two 8 plants. 9 q When you say r u b b e r , what r u b b e r p r o d u c t s were 10 being made, to your knowledge? " A I b e l i e v e t h e y made r u b b e r g a s k e t s , w ith 11 a s b e s t o s a s a f i l l e r , i n t h a t p l a n t you d e s c r i b e d . No. 2, 12 13 was i t ? Q The one t h a t you f e e l i s c o n n e c te d t o P l a n t 4? 14 % 15 A Yes. 16 q I t would be e i t h e r 2 or 5. A Yes. I t was a r e l a t i v e l y sm all o p eratio n . 17 q You t e s t i f i e d t h a t a s to p a r a g r a p h 5 i n E x h i b i t 18 19 No. 6, d e a l i n g w ith d i s c i p l i n a r y a c t i o n , t h a t you f e l t the language th e re , saying i t w ill be necessary to request 20 d iscip lin ary action through proper channels, in your opinion 21 d e a lt w ith the union? I s th a t what you sta te d ? A In my o p i n io n i t d e a l t w ith a r e a s i n which I had Offic ia l reporter company 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING, MD. 20904 Castleman.CERT001307 190 1 no involvement and t h a t I f e l t I c o u ld n 't ask fo r d is c i p l i n a r y 2 a c tio n w ithout warning them th a t they must do i t in the 3 proper way. 4 So, In g e n e r a l , i t was a v e r y broad s t a t e m e n t , 5 did not say Ju st whether they had a union or not a union. 6 I t is a d e lic a te in d u stria l re la tio n s problem 7 and here I was p u tti n g something in the b ib le and d i d n 't 8 want to t u r n around and have somebody say t o me t h a t you did 9 not include th a t as a warning to management. 10 Q But you did not know, when you used the words 11 proper channels, ex actly what channels were necessary, did 12 you? 13 A No, n o t a t a l l . 14 Q I f you w i l l tu rn to E x h ib it No. 1 , your r e p o r t 15 JL i t i s n o t your r e p o r t , b u t a r e p o r t t h a t you a r e f a m i l i a r 16 w i t h , i n v o l v i n g t h e I n d u s t r i a l Hygiene F o u n d atio n m e e ti n g . 17 What o t h e r companies were r e p r e s e n t e d a t t h a t m e e ti n g , do 18 you know? 19 A I am a f r a i d i t i s n o t my r e p o r t , a copy w a s n ' t 20 s e n t t o me, and I d o n ' t r e c a l l w hether I was a t t h a t m e etin g 21 a l s o . So I have no i d e a . When you say what o t h e r companies were 22 23 represented, do you mean who went to the Industrial Hygiene % O ffic ia l r epo r ter Company 12401 mo Drive Castleman.CERT001308 S IL \ . MD. 2090. |-j1124 191 Foundation meeting? Q - A Yes. That is the kind of a meeting that is very generai and open and anybody would go. , Q Well, who did you meet at Industrial Hygiene Foundation meetings that you could associate with various companies? A Q My counterparts for other companies in general. Did you meet representatives of Johns-Manville there? * A I met them after I knew who they were. I met them there , yes. Q Did you meet representatives of Bell Asbestos Mines there? , - A I didn't know any representatives of Bell Asbestos Mines. Q What about representatives of Cassiar Asbestos Company? A Q I didn't know any individuals there. What about representatives of the Asbestos Corporation? A I didn't know any individual. Q Did you know any Individuals who were employed O fficial Reporter Company * 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Castleman.CERT001309 Tel. 572-4324 192 1 by or rep rese n tin g the mining companies or the supplying 2 companies? 3 . 4 A None. Q So i f I were t o a s k you w h eth e r you knew any 5 re p r e s e n ta tiv e s from any of the Canadian mining companies 6 t h a t s u p p lie d a s b e s t o s to Ambler, your answer would be no? 7 A U nless i t was J o h n s - M a n v i l l e , some o f whose 8 p erso n n e l I knew. 9 Q, But o th er than J-M -- 10 A Other than J-M, I knew no o t h e r p e o p l e , no. 11 * Q Did you know w hethe r they i n f a c t were in 12 a t t e n d a n c e a t IHF m e e t i n g s , even i f you d i d n ' t know them 13 p e r s o n a l l y ? 14 A I have no idea whether they were. 15 - Q, Does y our p e r s o n a l f i l e c o n t a i n m in u t e s or 16 agenda from IHF m e e ti n g s t h a t you a t t e n d e d ? 17 A I d o n 't think so, no. 18 Q When you lo o k f o r t h a t document f o r Ms. Gibson 19 would you d o u b le c h e c k and see i f t h e r e i s a n y t h i n g from IHF 20 m e e t i n g s ? And i f t h e r e i s -- 21 * A I m ig h t have made a r e p o r t on one o r two of 22 them, y es. 23 Q, I f t h e r e i s , would you make i t known i n t h a t O fficial Reporter Com pany ^ 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001310 " L V E R SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. .572-4324 193 1 l e t t e r t h a t you a r e going t o be sending to h e r or Mr. B eers? 2 A A l l r i g h t . You a r e a s k i n g any r e p o r t r e f e r r i n g 3 -only to asbestos, or r e fe rrin g to anything? 4 Q Any r e p o r t of any IHF m e etin g t h a t you may have 5 attended. 6 A Whether i t had to do w ith a s b e s to s or not? 7 q Whether asbestos or not. 8 X believe th a t you te s t i f i e d th a t the only 9 general meeting of the Asbestos T ex tile I n s t i t u t e th a t you 10 a t t e n d e d was th e one on Ju n e 9, 19&1 i n P h i l a d e l p h i a t h a t 11 TDr. Smith spoke a t , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? 12 A I believe so, yes. 13 q I want to show you the m in u tes from the Asbestos 14 T e x t i l e I n s t i t u t e of t h a t g e n e r a l m e e ti n g . 15 - ms. GIBSON: What I s the d a t e o f t h a t ? 16 MR. RUBIN: June 9, 1961, i n P h i l a d e l p h i a . 17 q On th e second page, under p o i n t 5, t h e r e i s 18 r e f e r e n c e t o Dr. Kenneth Smith s p e a k in g . Doyou seet h a t ? 19 A Yes. 20 Q, Have you se en t h e s e m in u tes b e f o r e ? 21 A I d o n ' t b e l i e v e s o . Q D i d n ' t Ms. Gibson show you t h e s e m in u t e s when 22 23 she showed you minutes from the Asbestos T e x tile I n s t i t u t e ? OFFICIAL REPORTER COMPANY 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001311 SILVER SPRING. MD. 2090a 194 1 A That m eeting was n o t in c lu d e d . 2 3 . 4 Was i t , Ms. Gibson? MS. GIBSON: Does i t have h i s name? MR. RUBIN: I t has h i s name a s b ein g p r e s e n t 5 f o r Keasbey & M a ttison Company, y e s . 6 MR. BRUCH: That i s one of them because I have 7 a copy of i t . 8 THE WITNESS: I s i t one of them? Did I have a 9 response to t h a t meeting? I don't r e c a l l i t . Did I have a 10 r e p o r t on t h a t meeting? 11 * MR. BRUCH: That i s j u s t one o f the ATI m in u te s 12 t h a t were s u b m i tte d t o you by Ms. Gibson. 13 THE WITNESS: So t h a t would be i n c l u d e d -- 14 q I am n o t s u r e i f i t i s i n c l u d e d i n t h a t p a c k e t 15 o f n o t. But you r e c a ll being a t th is meeting th a t Dr. Smith 16 talked at? 17 A Oh, y e s . 18 q On th e f i r s t page i t l i s t s the r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s 19 from th e v a r i o u s companies t h a t were p r e s e n t . Did you know 20 any o f t h e s e p eo p le who a r e l i s t e d on th e f i r s t page or did 21 y6u meet them there? 22 A Ken Sm ith. And a t th e time I w a s n ' t f a m i l i a r 23 w ith S h e c k l e r , b u t I g o t t o know him l a t e r . O bviously, ,, Official repo rter co m pany * 12401 Palermo-Drive Castleman.CERT001312 SILVER ' ~ MD. 20904 -4324 195 1 t h e s e people were from my company, b u t X d o n ' t remember them 2 too much e x c e p t f o r H u t c h c r o f t . One of the R a y b e s to s - 3 ]fa n h atta n was chairman o f my committee, b u t I c a n ' t even 4 remember a face And Dr >haw, of c o u r s e , X remember 5 q I t h i n k you t e s t i f i e d t h a t Dr. Shaw was an 6 asbestos s p e c i a l i s t ; i s th a t the words th a t you used? 7 A Not a h e a lth asbestos s p e c ia lis t, but a research 8 asbestos specialist. 9 Q Was he a t any time e v e r employed by C ertainT eed 10 or Keasbey & Mattison? 11 A I d o n ' t t h i n k he was employed. I t h i n k he was 12 hired a s a c o n s u lta n t , a t l e a s t to go to t h a t meeting a t the 13 Waldorf A s t o r i a . Maybe more than t h a t , t o o . I d o n ' t know. 14 Q, At t h i s m e etin g , the 1961 meeting he was h ir e d 15 Iis a c o n s u l t a n t by Keasbey & M a t t i s o n , o r was i t a d i f f e r e n t 16 m eeting? 17 A No, th e W ald o rf A s t o r i a m e e tin g on a s b e s t o s . 18 Q The one t h a t Dr. S e l i k o f f spoke a t ? 19 A Right. 20 Q And was h i r e d by C e rta in T e e d t o a t t e n d t h a t 21 meeting? 22 A I b e l i e v e so , because Keasbey & M a ttiso n was no 23 longer in existence in '64. O fficial Reporter Com pany * 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001313 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 196 1 q . What was th e p u rp o s e of C e rta in T e e d engaging h i s 2 services to attend that meeting? , 3 m* *A* I d o n ' t know why. He w a s n ' t an i n d u s t r i a l 4 h y g i e n i s t , but I guess they f e l t he - I d o n 't know. But he 5 and I went to g e th er. 6 q Was he d o in g any type of c o n s u l t i n g work f o r 7 C e r ta in T e e d a t th e tim e ? 8 A I f he was, I was n o t aware of i t . 9 q And as- a r e s u l t of him a t t e n d i n g t h a t meeting 10 as a co n su lta n t fo r CertainTeed, what did he do? 11 ' A He w ro te a r e p o r t . 12 q A r e p o r t on h i s a t t e n d a n c e a t th e m e etin g ? 13 A That is r ig h t. MR. PONTZ: I would l i k e t o o b j e c t . Mr. Rubin 14 15 used the phrase, as a consultant for CertainTeed. 16 I th in k you a re p u ttin g words in the mouth of 17 th e w i t n e s s . You a r e presuming t h a t he was t h e r e a s a 18 c o n s u l t a n t f o r C e r t a i n T e e d , when i n f a c t I d o n ' t t h i n k t h e r e 19 has been testimony to th at e ffe c t. THE WITNESS: I am n o t aware of what h i s r e a l 20 *21 ftinetion was. ` 22 MR. PONTZ: I t h i n k the w i t n e s s h a s s t a t e d on 23 s e v e r a l o c c a s i o n s t h a t he i s n o t c l e a r a s t o the c a p a c i t y Official r epo r ter Com pany 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 .572-4334 Castleman.CERT001314 197 1 I n which Dr. Shaw was p r e s e n t . 2 Q W ell, i s i t your r e c o l l e c t i o n , s i r , t h a t he was 3 t h e r e i n some c a p a c i t y f o r C e r t a i n T e e d , a s opposed to being 4 there for the Asbestos Textile In stitu te ? 5 A Yes. . 6 Q Do you know w h eth e r he g o t p a i d f o r a t t e n d i n g 7 that meeting? 8 A I d o n ' t know w hethe r he g o t p a i d . I f he d i d , I 9 am n o t aware o f i t . 10 Q A f t e r he made h i s r e p o r t w i t h r e g a r d to a t t e n d i n g 11 t h a t m e e t i n g , do you know w h eth e r he d i d a n y t h i n g e l s e f o r 12 CertainTeed? 13 A No. 14 15 ` Q He d i d n o t or you d o n ' t know? A I d o n ' t know. I am n o t aware o f a n y t h i n g t h a t 16 he d id . 17 Q Do you have any r e a s o n t o b e l i e v e , s i r , t h a t 18 the p e r s o n s and companies l i s t e d on page 1 of the A sbestos 19 T e x tile I n s t i t u t e meeting of June 9 , 1 9 S l were not present 20 at that meeting? 21 A Not p re se n t a t which meeting? 22 Q At the meeting th a t Dr. Smith spoke a t , June 9, 23 1961? W >f iC i a1l240R1 ePpaolerrmt oe rDriCveo m p a n yCastleman.CERT001315 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 -r~i A1">A 198 1 As I i n d i c a t e d , I know o n ly a few o f th e names 2 here 3 q But do you have any reason to b eliev e th a t the 4 people l i s t e d th e re were not there? 5 A I have no reason to b eliev e they were not th e re . 6 q How many people were a t th e m e e tin g ? Was i t a 7 sm all group l i k e t h i s or was i t a b i g g e r group? 8 A I don't re c a ll the meeting exactly. q In E x h i b i t No. 16 th e r e i s r e f e r e n c e t o the 9 10 U nited S t a t e s P u b l i c H e a l t h S e r v i c e or Dr. C r a l l e y meeting 11 w i t h you a t C e r t a i n T e e d , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? 12 A I b e l i e v e th e s u b j e c t i s th e A s b e s to s T e x t i l e 13 i n s t i t u t e m e e t i n g . Co I mate r e f e r e n c e -- oh, i t i s p o s s i b l e 14 t h a t th e y may v i s i t u s to o , i s t h a t what you mean? 15 * Q, No. 16 A T h is was a meeting a t the ATX. 17 q Y es. I am t h i n k i n g of a l a t e r e x h i b i t , i n 18 which th e re was r e f e re n c e to Dr. C ra lle y making a p relim inary 19 v i s i t to Ambler? 20 , 21 A Yes, he d id . q Did you meet w ith him on t h a t occasion? 22 ` 23 A Yes. Q. What was h i s purpose i n coming t o Ambler? Official Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Castleman.CERT001316 Tel. 572-4324 199 1 A I f you r e c a l l , t h e r e was some h e s i t a n c y on the 2 p a r t of our management to agree to the study. I don't r e c a l l 3 or s u r e why he v i s i t e d , w hether i t wa's to o b t a i n i n f o r m a t i o n 4 himself as background information or to help us convince 5 management I d o n 't r e c a l l t h a t . 6 Q Well, did he a c t u a l l y go through the p l a n t or 7 any of the p l a n t s in Ambler and in s p e c t them? 8 A He d i d n o t come f o r p u r p o s e s of i n s p e c t i o n . I 9 d o n 't r e c a l l whether I even took him to one of the p l a n ts . 10 11 - Q Did anyone meet w ith him o th e r than y o u r s e lf ? A I d o n ' t r e c a l l . Can we f i n d t h a t and do I have 12 a r e f e r e n c e t o i t somewhere? 13 Q L e t ' s see i f we can f i n d i t . 14 E x h i b i t No. 23, Mr. H orow itz, th e s e c o n d - t o - l a s t 15 paragraph. 16 A Well, since I said to our p la n t, I have vague 17 r e c a l l t h a t we went i n t o P l a n t 8. 18 Q. For what purpose? 19 A To show him what a p ip e p l a n t looked l i k e , b u t 20 not to inspect i t or anything like that. 21 * * 22 23 Q D id a n y b o d y e l s e com e w it h h im a t th e tim e ? A N o. MR. BRUCH: D i d y o u s a y t h a t y o u s h o w e d D r . O fficial R eporter Com pany 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001317 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 TeL 572-4324 200 1 C r a lle y w hat a p ip e p la n t lo o k e d lik e ? 2 THE WITNESS: I b e l i e v e we walked i n t o th e p l a n t , 3 y s. 4 q I am a l i t t l e c o n fu se d by E x h i b i t No. 20. Can 5 you turn to t h a t , Mr. Horowitz. . 6 A Yes. q T h i s i s amemorandum from you t o Mr. Simons, i s 7 8 that correct? 9 A R ig h t. 10 q Mr. Simons wasa s s o c i a t e d w i t h C e r t a in T e e d , 11 rath e r than w ith Keasbey & Mattison, i s th at correct? 12 M R . BRUCH: I o b j e c t t o t h a t . A I don't think so because I re fe r to apparently, 13 t h i s i s a memo from me t o a S a f e t y D i r e c t o r whose name, f a c e 14 a<hd f u n c t i o n I d o n ' t remember, b u t i t r e f e r s t o s e v e r a l a r e a s 15 16 in K & M p lan ts and, therefore, re fe rs to Plants 1, 4, 6, 1 , 17 8, 9 and 10, t h a t C e r t a in T e e d d id n o t ta k e o v e r . So i t ' s 18 K easbey & M a ttiso n . 19 q T h at i s why I w as c o n fu se d . I th o u g h t you had 20 I d e n t i f i e d Simons a s b e i n g a s s o c i a t e d w ith ^ 21 A No; b u t I d o n ' t r e c a l l who Simons was, I am a f r a i d , and I d o n ' t know w h e th e r he i s on t h i s l i s t h e r e . 22 q Now, on E x h i b i t 21 t h e r e I s an I n d i c a t i o n t h a t 23 O fficial r epo r ter co m pa ny 'Hi 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001318 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 201 1 a Mr. D av is g o t a copy. Was he th e I n d iv id u a l t h a t you 2 a sso c ia te d w ith C ertainT eed, ra th e r than w ith Keasbey & 3 M a.ttison? 4 A Yes. Q I f you w ill look in the second f u ll paragraph, 5 s ta rtin g w ith "Several m edical e x p e rts," you m ention Dr. 6 C a r t i e r . Do you see t h a t in p a r e n th e s is ? 7 8 A Yes. 9 0, Who i s D r. C a r t i e r ? 10 A I b e lie v e he was an e x p e rt from the Saranac 11 L a b o r a to r ie s who c o n c e n tr a te d on pneum oconiosis ty p e s of 12 d ise a se s. 13 Q I f I would su g g e st to you th a t he was a s so c ia te d w ith T h etfo rd Mines in Q uebec, would th a t be -- 14 15 ? A I f he was, I was ig n o ran t of th a t. 16 ft Did you know D r. C a r t ie r ? 17 A I d id n o t know him . 18 0, Did you e v e r h e a r him speak? 19 A I d o n 't r e c a l l h e a rin g him sp eak . Do you r e c a l l b e in g p r e s e n t a t an A sb esto s 2( Q T e x tile I n s t i t u t e m eetin g when he ta lk e d ab o u t th e h e a lth 21 experience th a t he had observed in the mines and m ills in 25 2' Quebec? O fficial r e po r t er Com pany 101 Palermo Drive SPRING. MD. 20904 Castleman.CERT001319 e l 3*' 324 202 1 A I d o n 11 r e c a l l i t . My f e e l i n g i s I w a s n ' t t h e r e 2 because I have always been curious about the health effects 3 in .th e mines of Quebec, as well as South A frica, and I ju st 4 don't reca ll that meeting. 5 Q W ill you t u r n t o the l a s t e x h i b i t , 25. Did you 6 w r i t e t h i s memorandum, s i r ? 7 A Yes. 8 q In the second paragraph, s i r , you say i t w ill 9 make i t more d i f f i c u l t f o r th e union a t t o r n e y s t o subpoena 10 the x-rays? 11 ; A Where i s t h a t ? 12 Q I t ' s . t h e se cond p a r a g r a p h . Whyd o n ' t youtake 13 a m inute and r e a d the whole p a r a g r a p h b e c a u s e I am going to 14 question you about i t . 15 f A Yes. What q u e s t i o n do you want? 16 Q What was y o u r knowledge a t t h e time w i t h r e g a r d 17 to the union's attorneys subpoenaing the x-rays? 18 A I had no knowledge a t a l l . 19 Q What was t h e p urpose of y our making th e s t a t e 20 ment t h a t i t w i l l make i t more d i f f i c u l t f o r th e u n i o n ' s 21 atto rn e y s to subpoena the x-rays? 22 * A A p p a r e n tl y , t h i s i s a f e a r t h a t the company had 23 and I was t r y i n g to a s s u r e them t h a t we c o u ld p r o v i d e O fficial Repo rter Com pany 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. M D. 2090 TeL 372-4324 Castleman.CERT001320 p r o t e c t i o n f o r th e woriker iw.hitt-hh ht hhli sa oprrooKgrraamm I was recormnendi-ng * ,,,,,,n o M iU v of the information, and a l l a y t h e ir f e a rs of a v a i l a b l l i y O Someone from the company t o l d you th e y were concerned about the union A I said apparently. I d o n 't know. q What made you t h i n k of any ty p e of concern a t a l l a b o u t union a t t o r n e y s subpoenaing x - r a y s ? Someone must have planted the seed in your mind. A I t ' s a g e n e ra l concern i n i n d u s t r y which makes them h e s i t a t e to go ahead w ith a program which i s perhaps good i n d u s t r i a l h y g ie n e , t h a t i t might i n s t i g a t e c l a i m s . So i t ' s the kind of a th in g th a t you t r y to t e l l them l e t ' s not worry ab o u t t h a t crap b u t l e t ' s go ahead and do something. Q SO t h a t you b e l i e v e t h a t i n 1965 you f e l t t h a t i t was a general concern of in d u stry t h a t unions or th e ir a t t o r n e y s may t r y t o lo o k a t the x - r a y s o r g e t ehold of the x - r a y s i n o r d e r t o make c l a i m s ; i s t h a t w hat y o u r te stim o n y i=|? MR. BROMBERO: Mr. Rubin, may I have a s t a n d i n g . . n. . r e l a t i n g t o what he b e l i e v e s ? objection to a ll your questions relating MR. BRUCH: I o b j e c t t o t h e q u e s t i o n a l s o . . Q L e t me r e p h r a s e t h a t . Was i t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g i n 196T t h a t th e r e was a concern i n I n d u s t r y i n g e n e ra l and at CertainTeed in particular, that unions or th eir attorneys OFFICIAL REPORTER COMPANY > 12401 Palermo Drive ^ s il v e p s p r in g , m d . 2090* Castleman.CERT001321 204 1 may a t t e m p t t o lo o k a t h e a l t h r e c o r d s o r x - r a y s of employees? 2 MR. BROMBERG: Would you r e a d the q u e s t i o n 3 back, please? 4 MR. BRUCH: O b je c t i o n . 5 (The R e p o r te r read the l a s t q u e s t i o n . ) 6 MR. RUBIN: Amend t h a t t o 1965* 7 MR. BROMBERG: I o b j e c t t o t h a t q u e s t i o n . I t 8 t a l k s a b o u t I n d u s t r y i n g e n e r a l , w h a te v e r t h a t may be, and 9 I t talks about his b elief. 10 MR. BRUCH: I a l s o o b j e c t t o t h a t q u e s t i o n . 11 r MR. DELORENZO: I a l s o o b j e c t t o t h a t . 12 Q Can you answer t h a t , s i r ? 13 A A p p a r e n t l y , y e s . That i s w h y I i n c l u d e d I t . 14 MR. PONTZ: A p p a r e n t l y , y e s , w h a t ? 15 " THE WITNESS: Could I expand on i t ? 16 Q S u r e . Go a h e a d . 17 A I am t r y i n g t o g e t my t h o u g h t s t o g e t h e r on i t . 18 At th e tim e, i t appears -- i t n ot only appears, 19 the g e n e ra l f e e l i n g of in d u s try seems to have been, and i t 20 was, you can r e a d i t th r o u g h many of t h e n o t e s , t h a t the 21 h a z a r d and th e a s s o c i a t i o n of c a n c e r w i t h a s b e s t o s i s was n o t 22 r e a l b u t was b e i n g made a b i g t h i n g o f by o t h e r s . And i n 23 g e n e r a l , ray f e e l i n g was t h a t s p e c i f i c management, a s w e ll a s r O fficial R eporter Com pany 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001322 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 TeL 572-4324 205 1 management in total, didn't want the records readily available 2 and indiscriminately used. * 3 So it was a cautionary statement. My efforts 4 were to get this program going and if this were to help in 5 getting it going, I included it. 6 q Did you ever have any discussions with Dr. Donald, at which time Dr. Donald was advised not to use the 7 8 term asbestosis when discussing health problems with employee A No, X don't recall any meeting with Dr. Donald 9 10 either. My memory fails me there. ? q d o you recall ever issuing a memo to that effect 11 12 A I issuing a memo to that effect? 13 Q Yes. A I would not issue a memo to that effect. And if 14 you presented one to me, it would just show you that my brain 15 16 is going. I don't think I would issue a memo like that. Q Do you recall discussing with anyone at Keasbey 17 & Mattlson or CertainTeed that the company did not want Dr. 16 Donald to use the word asbestosis when discussing health 1< 21 problems? * a I don't recall that at all. 2' Q DO you know whether that was the company 2: position in the early '60s, in mid '60s, that is -- 2, Of f i c 'L Reporter Company 401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001323 8. SPRING. M D. 20904 206 A. Which company? Q I t would be Keasbey & M attison and CertainTeed bec ause I am c o v e r i n g b o th p e r i o d s . **-- t h a t Dr. Donald was n o t t o use the word a s b e s t o s i s when t a l k i n g w ith employees? MR. BRUCH: O b je c t i o n . A The whole i d e a i s a b h o r r e n t to me because a p ro fe ssio n a l would not accept th a t kind of thinking or ta lk in g . Now, w h e th e r i t was given or n o t , I am not p r i v y to th a t inform ation , nor do I ever r e c a l l any. ; Q Turn to the next page, s i r , of E x h ib it 25, the fourth f u ll paragraph. I t says: "This report w ill contain conservative language in those cases where x-rays reveal a lung or heart condition possibly unrelated to the employee's occupation." What d i d you mean by c o n s e r v a t i v e language? A The f e a r was n o t to u p se t the employee and I believe conservative language meant not inflammatory type. Q W ell, t h i s r e p o r t was going to the em ployee 's family physician, not to the employee, i s n ' t th at correct? ' A That is rig h t, yes. Q So why was t h e r e any type o f f e a r a b o u t u p s e t t i n g the employee in a document going to the employee's physician Official Reporter co m pa ny 12401 Palermo Drive SILV ER SPR IN G . M D . 20904 TeL J72-4324 Castleman.CERT001324 207 1 and not to the employee? 2 A Presumably, the doctor would then pass it on to 3 the employee. 4 At that time there was a fear that many doctors 5 didn't know too much about this subject, either. 6 Q Why was it that the employees, again looking at 7 that same paragraph, were not directly told of their x-ray 8 results hut, rather, the results were to be sent to the 9 family physician? 10 A This was customary in industry, to pass on the 11 information, that it was incumbent on the industry when they 12 find any medical effect, you know, negative, positive, 13 whatever, to pass it on through the family physician. 14 Q Did you consider that to be good industrial 15 hygiene practice at the time? 16 MR. BRUCH: Objection. 17 A The passing on of information is not part of the 18 industrial hygiene practice per se. I think perhaps -- well, 19 I don't really know whether it's good practice or not. I 20 can't say. It's really a medical opinion and I am not 21 xpert in that area. 22 Q Did you discuss the way the films would be read 23 and sent to the family physician with any medical people Official reporter company > 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001325 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 TeL 572-4324 208 1 II before issuing this memorandum? 2 || a Did I discuss it? 3 Q Yes. 4 A I have no knowledge about reading x-ray reports. 5 I wouldn1t do that. 6 Q No; I am talking about how the information would 7 be passed on. 8 A No, I never discussed it with anybody. 9 Q Was it CertainTeed's wish that the results of 10 the x-rays not be directly related to the employees but be 11 passed through the family physician? 12 MR. BRUCH: Objection. 13 A I don't recall whether it was their wish or not. 14 Q Would it have been either their wish or your 15 recommendation, since it appeared in this report? 16 A It was my recommendation that the employee be 17 notified of any negative results on the x-ray. 18 Q By his family physician? 19 A It was my recommendation that he be notified 20 of any negative results, and the mechanics of it I 21 recommended here was to alleviate the worry that the company 22 seemed to have of direct information from the company 23 physician. It was a practice throughout Industrial medicine Official Repo rter Com pany 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 2090 Tel. 572-4324 Castleman.CERT001326 209 1 t o alw ays send -- l i k e i f they had a TB s h o t or s y p h i l i s 2 sh o t or what have you, t o p a s s t h i s kind of i n f o r m a t i o n on 3 t o ' t h e d o c t o r of the employee. I b e l i e v e i t was customary 4 to do t h a t . 5 0 T hat i s why you p u t i t i n t h i s l e t t e r of August 6 11? 7 A I believe so. That is not part of in d u stria l 8 hygiene re a lly , that is medical. 9 Q Looking a t the paragraph d i r e c t l y above the one 10 we have been r e f e r r i n g t o , where the x - r a y was normal the 11 r e s u l t s would be reported d ir e c tly to the employee, i s n ' t 12 that correct? 13 A Yes. 14 q So d o n ' t you t h i n k , s i r , t h a t i f th e employee 15 did n o t g e t t h e r e s u l t s , he would by i n f e r e n c e know t h a t 16 th e re was something wrong and be worried anyway? 17 MR. BRUCH: O b je c tio n . 18 A W e ll, he was going to g e t th e r e s u l t s , b u t 19 th rough h i s own d o c t o r , i f i t were n e g a t i v e , so t h a t the 20 doctor could advise him. 21 * Q You mean i f i t were p o s i t i v e ? 22 A I f i t were p o s it iv e . I'm s o r ry . I f i t were 23 n e g a tiv e t h e r e was no need to go to h i s d o c t o r . I f i t were OFFICIAL REPORTER COMPANY 12401 Palermo Drive 5'- SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. .572-4324 Castleman.CERT001327 210 1 positive, then there was a need to go to his doctor. I 2 believe that is the thinking behind that. 3 Q What did you mean by x-rays that showed no 4 radical change over the previous years? 5 A In my limited knowledge about x-rays, the 6 purpose and the benefit of x-rays is to show change, and 7 generally change should be radical enough to cause concern. 8 Minor, little things I believe they don't consider as change. 9 But I am sort of repeating somebody else's medical type of 10 thinking. I believe that is what is meant by that. 11 Q How about if an x-ray started to show some 12 plaquing in the lower lobes that had not appeared in a prior 13 film, is that considered a radical change? 14 A In my layman's opinion, that is a radical change. 15 Q What is not a radical change in a chest x-ray? 16 A I don't know. I was just repeating. As a 17 layman, I was trying to give them a medical program, being 18 the only one available to give them that, and I was probably 19 repeating what I had read or heard or seen somewhere else. 20 MR. BROMBERG: I object to that question. 21 Q As a result of this memorandum of August 11, 22 19 6 5 do you in fact know what was implemented in Ambler? 23 A No. Offic ia l Reporter company 12401 P alerm o D riv e SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Castleman.CERT001328 Tel. 572-4324 211 1 MR. BROMBERG: What d a t e ? 2 MR. RUBIN: The d a t e i s August 11, '65 t h a t 3 a p p e a r s on E x h i b i t 25 4 Q Do you know how an employee was inform ed of h i s 5 x - r a y r e s u l t s a f t e r t h i s memorandum of August 11, 1965? 6 A I have no id e a . 7 q When did you l e a v e C e rta in T e e d , *66? 8 A 1968. 9 Q Was t h i s program t h a t you o u t l i n e d i n E x h i b i t 10 25 p u t i n t o e f f e c t i n Ambler? 11 A I have no id e a . 12 MR. BROMBERG: You mean i n i t s e n t i r e t y ? 13 MR. RUBIN: Yes. 14 Q Do you know w hethe r any p a r t of th e program was 15 put i n to e f f e c t in Ambler? 16 A The only p a r t t h a t I can r espond t o i s t h a t 17 they changed to f u l l s iz e d f ilm s , where p rev io u s -to th a t 18 they weren't using fu ll sized film. 19 q And i t i s y o u r te stim o n y you n e v e r met w ith or 20 talked with Dr. Donald a t any time? 21 * A I t i s my t e s tim o n y t h a t I d o n ' t r e c a l l e v e r 22 meeting or talking to him. 23 Q, With r e g a r d t o NIMA, when d i d you J o i n the O f f i c i a l R e p o r t e r C o m p a n y C, astleman.CERT001329 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 7 -i n o i 212 1 health or safety committee? 2 A I don't have to ta l r e c a ll, but probably the year 3 af*ter CertainTeed, around th a t time. 4 Q What was the f u n c t i o n of t h a t committee? 5 MR. HILLY: O b j e c t i o n . T h is was asked and 6 answered. 7 A I believe I answered that. 8 Q Your answer was t o p r e p a r e m a t e r i a l on h e a l t h 9 hazards? 10 A That was one of t h e i r f u n c t i o n s . 11 Q. What o t h e r f u n c t i o n s did they have? 12 A To respond t o th e h e a l t h problems in v o lv e d w ith 13 insulation. 14 Q Did they fund any s t u d i e s ? 15 A Not to my knowledge, no. 16 Q In what way d i d th e y respond t o the h e a l t h 17 problems? 18 A We p u b l i s h e d l i t t l e b o o k l e t s on a s b e s t o s and, 19 I b e l i e v e , f i b e r g l a s . I am n o t s u r e . 20 Q Was one of the b o o k l e t s j o i n t l y a u t h o r e d by 21 C liff Sheckler, John Vyberg, Harry Messier and yourself? 22 A Yes. Vyberg was the salesman f o r Ofens Corning. 23 Q And t h a t book was c a l l e d , Recommended Safe Off ic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive c '? SPRING. MD. 2090a Castleman.CERT001330 213 Practices for Handling and Applying Thermal Insulation Products Containing Asbestos; right? * a q Yes. I notice that was printed May 1st, 1968. A I s t h a t when i t was? q Did you remain on that committee after you left CertainTeed? A No, sir. q When d i d you say you l e f t ? A In A pril of 1968. When was t h a t p r i n t e d ? q May of '68. A I d o n 't know how I g o t a copy, b u t I t h i n k I have a copy. I am n o t s u r e . ! Q Were h e a l t h problems of f a c t o r y w o rk e rs d i s c u s s e d a t th e NIMA hygie ne committee m e e ti n g s t h a t you attended? A Q Yes. This d eals with in su la tio n workers, th is book, does i t not? ' a What was your question again? Q My q u e s t i o n d e a l t w ith f a c t o r y w o r k e r s . A Well, f a c t o r i e s making i n s u l a ti o n i s what the Of f ic ia l Reporter Company i 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001331 . s n VF.R SPRING. MD. 2090 572-4324 214 1 reference was. 2 Q, So it was discussed at these meetings? 3 A Yes. 4 q Do you have minutes from those meetings in your 5 personal file? 6 A I may have. I don't know. q When you check your file would you see if you 7 8 have those minutes and let Ms. Gibson know if you do, please? 9 A Yes. 10 q Did you say that if the MAC were maintained, it 11 was your understanding that asbestosis would not result? Is 12 that a statement that you made here today? AIt's the purpose of establishing MACsor TLVs 13 so that most people exposed below that value would not get 14 15 the particular disease caused by that material. That is 16 general. It is not specific for asbestos or any other 17 material. I f there is one for carbon tetrachloride, then 18 the understanding is if you maintain it below the level that 19 is recommended - and this is data that thoseof us who do 2( not do research accept and try to meet. ' Q And that is true regardless of the length of 21 22 exposure? A That value has a function, is determined and 2c Official Reporter Company 17401 P a l e r m o Drive " VER SPRING. MD. 20904 Castleman.CERT001332 215 1 has to be evaluated, and one of the evaluations la length of 2 exposure. So It's not specific alone to length of exposure, It`has to do with exposure times concentration, length of 3 4 exposure times concentration. 5 Q Dose response relationship? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Is it your understanding that any TLV or MAC 8 for asbestos took into consideration a dose response relation- 9 ship? 10 A They attempted to take it into consideration 11 within the knowledge available at the time. 12 Q Was it your understanding that any MAC or TLV 13 for asbestos was in fact medically confirmed as being correct MR. BROMBERG: I am going to object. He is not 14 V 15 a doctor. MR. RUBIN: I am asking what his understanding 16 17 was. If A Those of us who are industrial hygienists have come from various areas of engineering, chemistry, biology, 1< physics and so on. We have to depend on those who determine 2i these levels, and we watch for documentation as to how they 2 come to these conclusions and then we accept them. 2: At the time, the ACOIH, which is the American 2 O fficial Reporter Com pany 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 Castleman.CERT001333 216 1 o f C o n f e r e n c e G overnm ent and I n d u s t r ia l H y g ie n is ts , w as th e 2 i n o n l y o n e th e w o r ld e s t a b lis h in g th e s e v a lu e s . T h ese w ere a c c e p t e d b y s t a t e s , w e r e p i c k e d u p b y OSHA, a n d t h o s e o f u s 3 4 w ho w ere la y p e o p le a c c e p t e d them b e c a u s e i t w a s th e p r e v a i l ! ^ 5 knowledge a t the time. q do you s t i l l a c c e p t them, s i r ? 6 I t i s th e only t h i n g we have t o a c c e p t . 7 A Do you s t i l l a c c e p t i t w ith reg a rd to a s b e s to s ? 8 Q 9 10 11 J- 12 A I s t ill accept it . MR. HILLY: A p a r t i c u l a r s t a n d a r d , a r e you a s k i n | ? MR. RUBIN: Yes. . THE WITNESS: Which s t a n d a r d , t h a t s t a n d a r d or 13 to d a y 's sta n d a rd ? a Do you a c c e p t t o d a y ' s s t a n d a r d w i t h r e g a r d to 14 ' 15 a sb esto s? 16 A I have t o . q Why do you have to ? 17 A I have no o th e r sta n d ard , nor do I do any 18 19 r e s e a r c h o n m y o w n t o c o n t r a d i c t i t . Q Why d o n ' t you p r e f e r r e s p i r a t o r s a s a prim ary 20 21 m e t h o d o f a s b e s t o s c o n t r o l ? A I d o n o t p r e f e r r e s p ir a t o r s a s a p rim a ry m eth od 22 Of c o n t r o l for a n y t o x i c m a t e r i a l . 23 OFFICIAL REPORTER COMPANY 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001334 SILVER SPRING. M D. 2090 217 1 Q . Why? 2 A Because i t i s f a r from p erfect and very f a l l i b l e . 3 I t I s su b ject to personal f a ilu r e , personal misuse, and i t i s 4 not accepted in the fie ld as a primary method. 5 Q Do you a g r e e w i t h the s t a t e m e n t made by Hugh 6 Jackson of Johns-Manville th at resp irato rs are our la s t line 7 of defense? 8 M R . 'BROMBERG: O b j e c t i o n . He i s n o t b ein g 9 deposed a s an ex p e rt w itn e ss i n t h i s case, nor has he been 10 o f f e r e d a s an e x p e r t by anybody t h a t I know o f . I t h i n k i t 11 is improper. 12 He i s n o t r e p r e s e n t e d by c o u n s e l , b u t I don t think you have the r i g h t to ask him qu estio n s about expert 13 14 opinion. * 15 MR. DELQRENZO: And I t h i n k he should be advised 16 t h a t he can r e f u s e t o answer q u e s t i o n s l i k e t h a t because i t 17 a t t e m p t s t o make him an e x p e r t . THE WITNESS: I t i s an o p in io n q u e s t i o n , anyway, 18 19 so I think i t i s kind of rid ic u lo u s . 20 Hugh J a c k s o n comes to mind. I have met the 21 fellow. MR. BRUCH: W e l l , Mr". H orow itz, J u s t f o r your 22 own b e n e f i t , what you view a s a c o n c e p t of o p in io n and what 23 OFFICIAL REPORTER COMPANY 1 2 4 0 1 P a l e r m o Drive SILVER SPRIN C. MD. 20904 T -l 572-4324 Castleman.CERT001335 218 1 we know i n th e law a s an o p in io n i s a d i f f e r e n t d e f i n i t i o n . 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 I w ill t e l l you th is . I, as an in d u s tria l 4 h y g i e n i s t , would use i t a s a l a s t method of defense and only 5 where I c a n 't use something b e t t e r . 6 q I am confused by E x h i b i t No. 6. Can you t u r n 7 to that, s ir . . 8 E x h i b i t No. 6 was l a t e r a t t a c h e d to E x h ib it 9 No. 20, which i s th e l e t t e r o f A p r i l 5> 1962, i s t h a t r i g h t ? 10 A I believe so. 11 Q Is that correct? 12 A Yes. 13 Q I th o u g h t I h e a rd you say t h a t E x h i b i t No. 6 14 was n o t i s s u e d u n t i l 1967? 15 A Well, you s a id l a t e r . A c tu a lly , the one in 16 E x h i b i t No. 20 was f i r s t . 17 Q Right. 18 A Then E x h i b i t No. 6 was a d j u s t e d and changed or 19 amended t o i n c l u d e my b e t t e r t h i n k i n g , a s w e l l a s to change 20 the name from K & M t o C e r t a i n T e e d . So t h a t came l a t e r . 21 , q That was a t t a c h e d to your memorandum of A p r i l 22 5 , 1962, which i s Horowitz No. 20? 23 A The f i r s t i s s u a n c e of t h i s p ap e r f o r K & M was Official Reporter Com pany 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 209CM Castleman.CERT001336 Tel. 572-4324 219 1 a t t a c h e d to No. 20. T hat waB i n 1962. 2 Q For K & M or for CertainTeed? 3 * A That was o r i g i n a l l y f o r K & M. 4 Q So i t was n o t i s s u e d i n i 960, i t was i s s u e d i n 5 1962, even though i t i s d a t e d i 960? 6 A Oh, no, i t was i s s u e d i n i9 6 0 , b u t i t was added 7 to t h i s *62 memorandum because the s u b j e c t m a t t e r was use of 8 d u s t r e s p i r a t o r s . I t was a c t u a l l y i s s u e d i n i 960. 9 MR. BROMBERG: J u s t f o r th e r e c o r d , I t h i n k i t 10 i s t o t a l l y u n c l e a r a s t o what was i s s u e d I n i 960. 11 MR. BRUCH: I o b j e c t t o t h a t . 12 MR. BROMBERG: We w i l l e x p l o r e i t f u r t h e r . 13 Q, L e t 's c l e a r i t up. What was i s s u e d In i 960? 14 A The r e s p i r a t o r program f o r a l l K & M p l a n t s 15 which i s a t t a c h e d t o No. 20 was i s s u e d on October 13# I960. 16 Q Then a s o f A p r i l 5# 1962 i t was amended and 17 attached to -- 18 A I t was n o t amended. I t was J u s t atta c h e d to 19 t h i s l e t t e r to Mr. Simons a s i n f o r m a t i o n . 20 Q Oh. And I t was i n 1967 t h a t I t was amended? 21 4 A R ig h t; i t was amended In 1967# a s per a s t e r i s k 22 on th e bottom o f No. 6, which says: "Note: T h is memorandum 23 was i s s u e d i n I9 6 0 and must be s t r i c t l y e n f o r c e d . " Then I - * Official Reporter~ C. ompany rCa, sr(t,loemm,ann.rCiE:RDTTM001m3377 12401 Palermo Drive . SILVER SPRING. MD. 209CM 220 1 have something i n December *67 and I d o n ` t know what i t was 2 about. 3 - Q What happened i n 1967? What was done w ith i t i n 4 1967? 5 A I t was r e i s s u e d w ith the amendments i n 1967 6 You s e e , t h e r e a r e new p l a n t managers now. I t was a new 7 company. That i s , i t was a d d i t i o n a l p l a n t s . 8 Q You were n e v e r an o f f i c e r or d i r e c t o r of Keasbey 9 & Mattison? 10 A I was never an o f f i c e r . 11 Q Or o f C e rt a in T e e d ? 12 A Or o f C e r t a i n T e e d . 13 Q Did you ever a t any time while you were w ith 14 Keasbey & Mattison or CertainTeed d ir e c tly discuss with the 15 employees, hourly or piece working employees, health hazards 16 related to asbestos exposure? 17 MR. HILLY: I o b j e c t t o th e form. 18 A I t was n o t my r e s p o n s i b i l i t y t o b r i n g t h a t to 19 t h e i r a t t e n t i o n , b u t when I was ta k in g a i r samples i t was 20 n a t u r a l f o r them t o a s k me what I was d o in g , some of them, 21 and I would e x p l a i n to them what I was d oing. 22 Q T h a t you Were ta k i n g a i r samples? 23 A That I was tak in g a i r samples to determine the O fficial repo rter co m pa ny 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER ...... MG. MD. 20904 .>72-4324 Castleman.CERT001338 221 1 concentration of dust in the a i r . 2 Q But did you t a l k with them a t th a t time about 3 asbestosis or cancer? 4 A No, I d id n o t . 5 Q Do you know of a n y t h i n g t h a t any o f the companies 6 t h a t s u p p l i e d a s b e s t o s t o Ambler d id by way of warning the 7 workers of health hazards of working with asbestos? 8 A I am n o t aware ofa n y t h i n g . 9 Q Did you ev er d is c u s s w ith any of the s u p p lie r s 10 of a s b e s t o s i n t o Ambler a n y t h i n g d e a l i n g w i t h p u t t i n g warnings 11 on th e bags of a s b e s t o s ? 12 A I did not. 13 Q Did you e v e r see any w a r n in g s on the bags of a sb e sto s while you were employed by Keasbey & M attison or 14 15 CertainTeed? 16 A I don't recall seeing i t . 17 Q, You m entioned e a r l i e r t h a t you were f a m i l i a r 18 w ith th e name Hugh J a c k s o n of J o h n s - M a n v i l l e ? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Do you know him p e r s o n a l l y ? * H X know I met w i t h him and I d o n ' t remember 21 which o c c a s i o n s , b e f o r e C l i f f S h e c k l e r was the man from 22 23 J o h n s-M a n v ille th a t I m et. t O fficial R eporter c o m pa n y * 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001339 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 222 1 Q, And what d i d you d i s c u s s w i t h Hugh Jackson, do 2 you r e c a ll? 3 A The same g e n e r a l t o p i c s of a s b e s t o s and h e a l t h 4 and so on. 5 Q, Do you r e c a l l a p p r o x i m a t e l y when t h a t was? . 6 MS. KENNEY: A pproximately when what was? 7 MR. RUBIN: That he met w ith Hugh J a c k so n . 8 A A p p ro x im ate ly when I was w ith S h e c k l e r . I t may 9 have been Keasbey & M a t t i s o n tim e , i t may n o t have been. I 10 d o n ' t know. 11 Q P rio r to t h i s deposition did you meet with -- 12 you have a l r e a d y t e s t i f i e d you met w ith Ms. Gibson, I b e l i e v e 13 Did you a l s o meet w i t h Mr. B e ers? 14 A Yes. 15 Q, How many tim e s d id you meet w i t h them? 16 A Mr. B e e r s v i s i t e d me i n my o f f i c e once, and 17 then Ms. Gibson f o llo w e d l a t e r , and she was t h e r e the f i r s t 18 time, too. 19 Q How l o n g was your f i r s t m e e tin g ? 20 A A p p ro x im ate ly two h o u r s . 21 Q And was y o u r te s tim o n y t h a t you e v e n t u a l l y gave 22 today discussed a t th a t time? 23 A My t e s t i m o n y was n o t d i s c u s s e d . O fficial Reporter Co m pany 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001340 .VER SPRING. MI). 20904 " 572-4324 223 1 Q Were th e g e n e r a l t o p i c s covered i n your testimony 2 discussed a t that time? 3 * A They asked me s e v e r a l q u e s t i o n s s i m i l a r t o the 4 type t h a t I am b e i n g asked now. They asked me i f I had any 5 co rrespondence to s u p p o r t , p e rh ap s , what I was s a y i n g . They 6 asked me i f I knew many names which they r a t t l e d o f f . And 7 then th e y f e l t t h a t my t e s tim o n y should be d ep o s ed , I g u e s s . 8 And t h a t was i t . My company lawyer s a t w ith me. ' 9 Q And th e second v i s i t was t o go over the 10 documents t h a t you had s e l e c t e d from your f i l e , w i t h Ms. 11 Gibson, is th at correct? 12 A To go ov er th e m in u t e s t h a t she b r o u g h t w ith 13 h e r from th e ATI, and I had my co r r e sp o n d e n c e r e l a t i v e to 14 those minutes, plus documentation -- not documentation, but 15 c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h a t I had i n my p e r s o n a l f i l e s t h a t might be 16 relativ e to this particular case. 17 q S ir, are you receiving anything in re tu rn for 18 your testimony here today? 19 A I am b e in g compensated f o r the time I have 20 sp en t on t h i s , y e s . 21 Q By Mr. B e e r s ' o f f i c e ? 22 A By Mr. B e e r s ' o f f i c e . 23 q And what a b o u t y o u r t r a v e l e x p e n s e s ? Offic ia l Reporter company 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 372-4324 Castleman.CERT001341 224 1 A Travel expenses included. 2 Q That i s fo r you and your wife? 3 * A Me and my w i f e . 4 Q And y our h o t e l e x p e n s e s ? 5 A J u s t one n ig h t; r i g h t . 6 Q One l a s t q u e s t i o n . In r e f e r r i n g to th e MAC or 7 TLV, d id you i n d i c a t e t h a t t h a t i s a s s o c i a t e d w ith a 8 percentage of 80 p erce n t? 9 A The g e n e r a l f e e l i n g i s t h a t i t i s i m p o s s ib le or 10 would be very r e s t r i c t i v e and c o s tly to s e t a value to attem pt 11 to meet 100 percent because th a t value -- and th is i s 12 g e n e r a l , i t has n o t h i n g t o do w i t h a s b e s t o s a l o n e . By 13 a tte m p tin g to meet 80-plus p e rc e n t, they would be p r o te c tin g 14 p ractica lly a l l the workers. 15 " Q 80 p e rc e n t of what? I d o n 't understand. 16 A All people are d iffe re n t. There are d ifferen t 17 s u s c e p t i b i l i t i e s . Why does one p e r s o n g e t a d i s e a s e and 18 an o th e r d o e s n 't ? So the v a r i a b l e s a r e very, very g r e a t , 19 what the concentration i s and what the time i s . Apparently, 20 the committee, the American Conference of Governmental and 21 Industrial Hygienists claim that they attempt to arrive at 22 a f ig u r e t h a t i s c lo s e to 80 p e r c e n t or more, 23 Q In o th e r words, th a t would p ro te c t 80 percent r Offic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001342 SILVER SPRING. MD. 2090a Tel. 572-4324 225 1 o f the p e o p le who were exposed? 2 MR. BRUCH: O b j e c t i o n . 3 " MR. BROMBERG: O b j e c t i o n . 4 A I guess i t ' s l i k e sm allp o x . I f you i n j e c t 80 5 p e rce n t of the world, then you might e lim in a te smallpox 100 6 percent. That is the kind of a thing. Well, there i t ' s 7 because people p ass i t on to each o t h e r . 8 Q But w i t h r e g a r d t o th e TLV t h a t th e ACGIH s e t 9 f o r a s b e s t o s e x p o s u r e , a r e you s a y i n g t h a t t h a t l e v e l was 10 designed to p r o te c t 80 p e rc e n t of the people exposed? 11 A W e ll, I am n o t r e a l l y s a y in g t h a t , and maybe 12 i t 18 d i f f i c u l t f o r me t o e x p l a i n i t b ec au se I am r e p e a t i n g 13 what they say. 14 Q W e ll, t o th e b e s t t h a t you c a n . I am confused 15 a b o u t t h a t . Can you t r y t o c l a r i f y i t ? 16 A I t ' s lik e saying I f you measure a n a ly tic a lly 17 something and you put i t in an Instrum ent and i t gives you 18 no v alu e, you c a n ' t say th e re i s zero th e re because you 19 d o n ' t know th e l i m i t s of the i n s t r u m e n t . 20 The same t h i n g w i t h t h i s . They d o n ' t know t h a t 21 the value they s e t , they c a n ' t a b s o lu te l y say -- remember, 22 I t ' s a guide. I t ' s not an absolute number, although i t ' s 23 being used a s an a b s o lu te number. I t ' s a g u id e . They c a n ' t * O fficial Reporter Company ' Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001343 ..... .PRING. MD. 2090 226 1 a b s o lu te ly say 100 p erce n t, so they play I t safe and say 2 they aim and they hope t h a t i t w i l l p r o t e c t 80 p e rc e n t p l u s . 3 ; I think that is the idea behind i t . 4 MR. RUBIN: Thank you, s i r . 5 MR. BROMBERG: At th e time of t r i a l I a s k t h a t 6 te s tim o n y be s t r i c k e n because i t i s based on what he t h i n k s 7 it is. 8 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT CERTAINTEED 9 BY MR. HILLY: 10 Q Mr. H o ro w itz, on t h i s t h r e s h o l d v a l u e , do you 11 know a value f o r 100 p e r c e n t coverage? 12 A Yes. Z ero i s 100 p e r c e n t c o v e r a g e . That i s why 13 14 15 r 16 they c a n 't give 100 percent coverage. Q about that. Going t o E x h i b i t 25, Mr. Rubin was a s k in g you The h e a d in g h e r e , to whom i s t h a t a d d r e s s e d ? A To a l l p ip e p l a n t m anagers. 17 Q And t h e ca rb o n c o p i e s , I s one of those to Dr. 18 Donald? 19 On the f r o n t i s t h e r e a ca rb o n l i s t ? 20 A Yes, apparently there i s . 21 - Q When you were w r i t i n g t h i s , Mr. Rubin was a s k i n g 22 you a b o u t r a d i c a l c h a n g e s . Was i t one o f y our purposes i n 23 w ritin g th is to in s t r u c t Dr. Donald as to what changes in Official Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001344 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 5 7 2 -4 3 2 4 227 1 the x-rays were? 2 A No, i t was -- what was t h a t ? Say t h a t a g a i n , 3 please? 4 q Was one o f y o u r p u rp o se s i n w r i t i n g t h i s 5 memorandum t o i n s t r u c t Dr. Donald? 6 A No. The purpose was t o i n s t r u c t the managers 7 th a t such a program was needed and to respond to the f e a r s 8 that they had in general about not promulgating a program 9 l i k e t h a t , and D r . Donald J u s t g o t a copy of t h a t . I t was 10 to the pipe plant managers. 11 q This b u s in e s s about making i t more d i f f i c u l t 12 f o r th e u n i o n ' s a t t o r n e y s t o subpoena th e x - r a y s , have you 13 ever studied law? 14 A No, I h a v e n ' t . 15 c Q Have you e v e r heard the term r o s t e r c l a im s ? 16 A No, I have n o t . 17 Q Has any in fo rm a tio n ever reached you about a 18 p ra c tic e by c e r t a in a tto rn e y s in s o l i c i t i n g workman's 19 compensation claims by simply alp h ab etizin g the work r o s t e r 20 A I have h e a r d r e f e r e n c e made t o the f a c t t h a t 21 c l a im s sometimes a r e done t h a t way, b u t t h a t i s th e only 22 reference I have heard. 23 0 I n E x h i b i t 8 t o t h i s d e p o s i t i o n , on page 2, i n Offic ' " Reporter company !01 Palermo Drive SPRING. MD. 20904 el. 5 7 2 - m A Castleman.CERT001345 228 1 No. 1, i t says: "Although i t i s d i f f i c u l t to prove t h a t a 2 person has a s b e s to s is , i t i s a ls o d i f f i c u l t to prove th a t he 3 does not have a s b e s to s is ." 4 Did you have any inform ation contrary to what 5 Mr. S cranton was s a y in g i n t h i s I960 r e p o r t ? 6 A I b e l i e v e th e u n d e r s ta n d in g a t t h a t time was 7 t h a t t h e r e were n o t to o many m edical p e o p le who r e a l l y could 8 i d e n t i f y a s b e s t o s i s a t t h a t tim e . So X b e l i e v e t h i s i s what 9 he was t r y i n g to sa y . Then, in h i s f u n c t i o n , I guess he 10 f e l t t h a t the o p p o s ite was tr u e a l s o , so he sa id t h a t . 11 Q And i n th e December 6, I960 d u s t c o n t r o l r e p o r t 12 of Dr. S t a b l e r , u n d e r No. 2, t h i r d p a ra g ra p h down, Dr. 13 S t a b l e r s t a t e s : "The f a c t i s , though, t o make a d i f f e r e n t i a l 14 d ia g n o sis by x -ra y alone i s f o l l y . " 15 He c o n t i n u e s i n the n e x t p a r a g r a p h : There a r e 16 lung conditions th at resemble asbestosis in the x-ray 17 p i c t u r e , p h y s i c a l f i n d i n g s and symptoms which have been 18 proven to not be asb esto sis. 19 Did you have any contrary inform ation a t th a t 20 time which would d is p u te what Dr. S ta b le r i s saying there? 21 A At th a t time I could only accept the medical 22 o p i n io n on t h i s ty p e o f a n a l y s i s , and t h a t i s t r u e to d a y , to o 23 Q G e t t i n g bac k t o E x h i b i t 25, when you a r e , Of f ic ia l Reporter Company * 2401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001346 'ER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 229 1 speaking about providing a uniform program fo r x - ra y s , what 2 do you mean by uniform ? 3 A Where do X say t h a t ? 4 q In p a r a g r a p h 2 on the f i r s t page. A Uniform means fo r a l l our p la n ts , as i t says, 5 6 "a c e n t r a l l y c o n t r o l l e d , uniform program f o r a l l our p l a n t s which w i l l meet the r e q u ir e m e n ts of our new in s u r a n c e 7 8 c a r r i e r , T ra v ele rs Insurance Company." In other words, the same t h i n g done a l l over and c o n t r o l l e d i n one l o c a t i o n . 9 q i n E x h i b i t 3 , your n o t e s on the pap ers of the 10 13th I n t e r n a t i o n a l Congress on O ccupational H e a lth , p o in t 11 No. 5: "The r e l a t i o n between a s b e s t o s and lung ca n c e r has 12 not been firm ly e s t a b l i s h e d . Lung cancer r e l a t e d to in d u s try 13 14 r e q u i r e s much s t u d y . , 15 Di a you have any i n f o r m a t i o n i n August o f I960 t h a t was d i f f e r e n t than when you made th e n o te t h a t was 16 17 reported at this congress? A I only reported what I heard a t th a t conference. 18 q, Did you p erso n a lly have any inform ation th a t 19 20 was c o n t r a r y t o t h a t ? r 21 A I bad no inform ation contrary to th a t. q E x h ib it 7, the I n d u s tr ia l Hygiene Foundation 22 m e e tin g of O ctober 27, I9 6 0 , r e p o r t e d by Mr. C h i l d s t o Mr. 23 Of fic ia ' Reporter Company 401 Palermo Dri ER SPRING. M D. ' Castleman.CERT001347 Tel. 571 230 1 Barge, r e p o r t s th a t: "Only r a r e l y do in o rg an ic p a r t i c u l a t e 2 m a t e r i a l s i n d i c a t e cause f o r c a n c e r of the lung and many 3 o tlier i t e m s must be c o n s i d e r e d . Much to be done y e t to be 4 able to determine cause of lung cancer." 5 In November of ' 60 did you p e r s o n a lly have any 6 information contrary to that report? 7 A Where i s t h a t , so I can j u s t lo o k a t I t ? 8 Q Under A (l)(b ). 9 A I t h i n k t h a t was the knowledge a t the tim e. 10 Q I n E x h i b i t No. 23, your r e p o r t to Mr. Lanz on 11 the S e lik o f f paper, the l a s t paragraph, In d ic a tin g you 12 had a d v i s e d " t h a t we c o o p e r a t e w ith the U nited S t a t e s P u b lic 13 H e a lth S e r v i c e s t u d y to h e l p s t o p the a l a r m i s t r e p o r t i n g on 14 a sampling too small to be s t a t i s t i c a l l y v a l i d , " a re you 15 r e f e r r i n g in t h a t r e p o r t to the S e lik o f f study or paper you 16 are discussing in there? 17 A In general, yes. 18 Q What do you mean "on a sampling too sm a ll to be 19 statistically valid"? 20 A The number of c a s e s a t t h a t tim e. 21 Q In E x h i b i t No. 5, page 1, of the September 22 8 and 9, I960 Asbestos T e x tile I n s t i t u t e meeting, dated 23 September 14, I960, in the fourth paragraph, l a s t lin e , i t , Offic ia l Reporter company r- 1 Jl Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001348 ' SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. r -i324 231 1 is reported that one company expects no compensation from 2 newer employees. 3 * Can you explain what was understood by you after 4 hearing this statement at that meeting? 5 A Which paragraph was that? 6 Q Fourth paragraph, roughly the last line. A "One member related his company's experience," 7 8 is that the one? 9 Q Yes. Did you have an understanding at that time 10 as to why they would expect no workman's compensation claims 11 from newer employees? 12 A What he was trying to say, apparently, was that 13 it's a dose relationship and that prior employees who were 14 exposed for a number of years, X number of years, were 15 exposed to higher concentration than new employees would be 16 because control is better now and they are keeping it below 17 five million particles per cubic foot of air; and since it 18 takes a certain period of time, these new employees' total 19 dose would be much less than the old employees had been 20 exposed to. 21 q In Exhibit No. 15, the October 9, 1961 report 22 to the Loss Control Committee, in the first paragraph you 23 mention that " 1 5 have been reported as possible pulmonary Off ic e 1 reporter Com pany i. Palermo' Drive `.PRING. MD 20904 el. 1 Castleman.CERT001349 232 d i s e a s e or damage e a s e s . " L a t e r , in the second se n te n c e , exposed to d iffe re n t types of dust." . ` Can you t e l l me, o f those 15 c a s e s , what type s of dust they are re fe rrin g to? A Yes. I b e l i e v e t h i s was a c o m p i l a t i o n of a l l th e r e c o r d s they had o f c l a i m s made and the d u s t e x p o s u re . The r e a s o n i t was s t a t e d t h i s way was the d u s t exposure was not only a s b e s to s but s i l i c a and mica and o th er d u s ts . Q So a s used i n t h a t paragraph, d u s t r e f e r s to a l l kinds of dusts? A I t re fe rs to a l l kinds of dusts, yes. Q E x h i b i t No. 16, of December 1 3 , 1961, your r e p o r t . t o Mr. Spedding r e g a r d i n g the A T I meeting and the United S ta te s Public Health Service study to be undertaken, p a r t i c u l a r l y p o i n t 2 : "They were aware t h a t s t u d i e s made by th e E n g l i s h i n South A f r i c a on c o lo re d w orkers may n o t a p p ly to other ethnic groups with d iffe re n t environmental back ground. 3. They were i n t e r e s t e d in types of f i b e r , as well as mixtures of asbestos and other dusts." Did you have any personal inform ation a t th a t time regarding any of the inconclusive nature of the knowledge of the United S ta te s Public Health Service as evidenced by these p o in ts ? Did you have an y th in g c o n tra ry , Official r e p o r t e r c o m pa n y Castleman.CERT001350 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 T~ . I 233 1 to that to your personal information a t th at time? 2 A I don't re a lly understand the question. 3 . Q Did you have any p e rs o n a l in f o rm a tio n in 1961 4 r e g a r d i n g the s t u d i e s made by the E n g l i s h i n South A f r i c a 5 and th e ir v a lid ity ? 6 A I f you a re meaning with re fe re n c e to d i f f e r e n t 7 environment or d iffe re n t people exposed, th at is a medical 8 opinion th a t you c a n 't take data from one area to an o th er. 9 Are you a s k i n g me of the v a l i d i t y of t h e i r 10 s t u d i e s , what my o p i n i o n i s of the v a l i d i t y of t h e i r s t u d i e s ? 11 Q Of th e E n g l i s h s t u d i e s , i n 1961, what was your 12 understanding of the v a lid ity of those studies? 13 A As a l a y p e r s o n , I am i n a p o s i t i o n always t h a t 14 I have to ac ce p t the consensus of the medical community. 15 * Q What was y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f the consensus 16 a t th at time? 17 A The u n d e rs ta n d in g was t h a t , a p p a r e n t l y , the 18 s t u d i e s th e y had made i n d i c a t e t h a t a s b e s t o s was more 19 h a z a r d o u s than we t h o u g h t i t was. 20 Q You m entioned Dr. Knox coming t o the United 21 S ta te s . Other than v i s i t i n g Keasbey & M attison, what e lse 22 did he do, i f you know? 23 A I b e l i e v e he gave some p a p e r s i n o t h e r a r e a s , Official Reporter Company * . 12401 Pale -Drive Castleman.CERT001351 SILVER cp" 'D . 2090C ' 124 234 1 maybe a t .the I n d u s t r i a l H e a lth F ou n d atio n a t t h a t time. 2 Q Do you know the purpose of h i s v i s i t to the 3 . United States? 4 A I d o n ' t know the purpose of h i s v i s i t . 5 Q When he was m e etin g w i t h you a t Keasbey & 6 Mattison did he ask to see the p la n t o p eratio n s? 7 A . No, he d i d n o t . 8 Q, Was he concerned w ith the d u s t c o l l e c t i o n opera 9 tions a t the plant or plants? 10 A Only i n s o f a r as he to ld us t h a t they must 11 perform as good a s p o s s i b l e . 12 Q Did he a s k to see them? 13 A No, he d i d n o t . 14 Q, R e g a r d in g t h e h a z a r d s o f a s b e s t o s , d id he make 15 recommendations to you about what to do about i t ? 16 S pecifically, with regard to your present operation a t that 17 time? 18 A No, he d i d n o t . 19 Q You m entioned Dr. Shaw. What f i e l d i s h i s 20 d o c t o r a t e i n , do you know? 21 A I d o n ' t know. 22 Q I s he a medical doctor? 23 A No, I d o n ' t b e l ie v e so . P b.D ., I b e l i e v e . O fficial R eporter Com pany 12401 Palermo Drive SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Castleman.CERT001352 ' Tel. 572-4324 235 1 Q The c o n f i d e n t i a l stamp or marking and ty p in g 2 a t th e top of the e x h i b i t s h e r e , when d i d you use t h a t term 3 on a p a r t i c u l a r r e p o r t ? 4 A A p p a r e n t l y , i t was done -- I r e a l l y d o n ' t know 5 w hether I s t a r t e d n o t u s in g i t and then was asked to use i t , 6 or whether I was t o l d t h a t t h i s i s p r i v i l e g e d in fo rm a tio n 7 and therefore i t should go out c o n fid e n tia l, or whether i t 8 was done because we were r e q u e s t e d only the p e r so n i t was 9 w r itte n to should see i t . I have no id e a . I d o n 't r e c a l l . 10 Q, So you have no r e c o l l e c t i o n why i t would be 11 used i n some c a s e s ? 12 A I have no r e c o l l e c t i o n why. 13 Q During your work with CertainTeed Corporation as 14 I n d u s tr ia l Hygienist and Safety D irector and Dust Control 15 .E n g i n e e r , d id you have th e s u p p o r t of th e company i n the 16 th in g s th a t you were doing and recommending? .17 A I believe so, yes. 18 MR. HILLY: No o t h e r q u e s t i o n s . 19 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT CERTAINTEED 20 BY MR. BRUCH: 21 Q Mr. H orow itz, I only have a few q u e s t i o n s . 22 As an i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t , was i t a x i o m a t ic 23 --and you can c o r r e c t me i f t h a t word i s too h a r s h -- t h a t O f f 'c i a l R e p o r t e r C o m p a n y 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001353 T S7 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 , *1 236 1 even without the i n te r e s t in health problems, you needed to 2 take care of dust Ju st to work? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And was d u s t c o n t r o l a f a c t o r t o be c o n s i d e r e d 5 by an in d u s t r ia l h y g ie n ist? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Was i t a s i g n i f i c a n t f a c t o r ? 8 A Yes. 9 Q During your period of employment with C ertain - 10 Teed from 62 to '68, did the d u st co n d itio n s in P lan t 8 11 improve or s t a y the same or g e t worse? 12 A I t improved. 13 With resp e ct to these e x h ib its th a t have been 14 presented today, the Asbestos Textile In s titu te dealt mostly 15 with the te x tile industry, is that correct? 16 A That is rig h t. 17 , Q, When th e members c o n s u l t e d th e U nited S t a t e s 18 Public Health S erv ice , did they begin by studying the 19 a s b e s t o s t e x t i l e segment o f the i n d u s t r y or some o t h e r 20 segment? 21 A I believe they started with the te x tile industry 22 Q What was th e r e a s o n t h a t they s t a r t e d w ith the 23 asbestos te x tile part of the industry? Official R eporter Com pany 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001354 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 T ol S7 T.A \-)A 237 A They f e l t the percentage of a s b e s to s in the p r o d u c t was much g r e a t e r than any o t h e r i n d u s t r y , o f a s b e s t o s *i n the p r o d u c t . Q G reater than asb esto s cement pipe? A G reater than asbestos cement pipe. Q Did you ever le a rn anything from any of the members of the A sb es to s T e x t i l e I n s t i t u t e , or anywhere e l s e , th a t companies from Canada supplying the f i b e r were in t e r e s t e d in tr y in g to fin d out i f c r o c i d o l i t e or c h r y s o t i l e , one or the o t h e r , was l e s s dangerous than the o th e r? A I w asn't aware of anything like th a t. Q You n e v e r hea rd o f any s t u d i e s to t h a t e f f e c t ? A I know QAMA made s t u d i e s , b u t I d o n ' t know what s tu d ie s they made. Q Do you know who composed the QAMA? A I th o u g h t t h a t i t was a l l Canadian m i l l s and mines, b u t I am n o t aware i f t h a t i s t r u e . Q You mentioned E n g l i s h s t u d i e s i n t o d a y ' s d e p o s i t i o n , you mentioned s t u d i e s from South A f r i c a . Were t h e r e s t u d i e s made i n Canada d u r in g the p e r i o d of time of t h e s e e x h i b i t s , from *60 to '68 or w hatever th e y d a t e to? Were t h e r e s t u d i e s going on i n Canada? A I d o n 't r e c a ll any a b s tra c ts th a t I have seen Official Reporter Com pany 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001355 SILVER SPRING, MD. 20904 T - l 4 7 7 A1~>A 238 1 from Canada. 2 q Or any r e a d i n g s c o n c e r n in g t h a t ? 3 A I don't re c a ll any. 4 Q I n r e s p o n s e t o Mr. R u b i n ' s q u e s t i o n s d id you say 5 t h a t you knew Dr. C a r t i e r ? 6 A Yes. Obviously, he was a t the meeting t h a t X 7 was a t and X may have met him, b u t I d i d n ' t know him p e r s o n 8 ally. 9 Q With re sp e c t to Plant 10, there i s mention of a 10 Mr. Rainey on t h i s o r g a n i z a t i o n a l c h a r t i d e n t i f i e d a s 11 E x h i b i t No. 26. Did you know Mr. Rainey? 12 A Yes, Jack Rainey. 13 Q Do you know i f P l a n t No. 10 was a c q u i r e d by 14 Amatex? 15 A Yes, i t was. 16 Q Do you know i f Mr. Rainey went w i t h Amatex? 17 A Yes, he d i d . 18 Q From 1962 u n t i l 1968, do you know the name of a 19 CertainTeed employee from the Ambler a s b e s to s cement pipe 20 p l a n t who i n f a c t had a s b e s t o s i s ? 21 A I d o n ' t know of any. 22 Q Did youknow, i n your p e r i o d w i t h Keasbey & 23 M a t t i s o n , from i 960 t o 1962, w hether or n o t someone i n f a c t - Offic ia l Reporter company - 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001356 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 239 1 had asb esto sis? 2 A There were r e c o r d s of claim s made i n Mr. C h i l d s ' 3 r e p o r t s t o me and t h e r e was one newspaper r e p o r t of a judgment 4 That i s a l l I remember. 5 Q But do you know w hether t h a t c la im was c o n c lu 6 siv e ly held to find th a t th is claimant had a s b e s to s is ? 7 A I w asn't involved with the claim a t a l l , so I 8 have no knowledge a t a l l . 9 q This i s a minor point, but with respect to, I 10 b e l ie v e i t was E x h i b i t No. 5, you were asked to i d e n t i f y the 11 members i n a t t e n d a n c e t h e r e by Mr. Beers and you s t a t e d 12 t h a t __c o r r e c t me i f I am wrong, but you s a i d something 13 about these were a l l production people. 14 Dr. Kenneth Smith was n o t a p r o d u c t i o n p e r so n , 15 was he? 16 A D r. Kenneth Smith was n o t in t h i s group. 17 Q On E x h i b i t 5? Then I have got the wrong e x h i b i t 18 A On E x h i b i t 5 19 Q Then s t r i k e th a t question. 20 A B u t Dr. Smith was not a p r o d u c t i o n p e r s o n , no. 21 My i n t e n t i o n was t h a t the people on the 22 committee were not in d u s tr ia l h y g ie n ists. q When they made r e f e r e n c e t o t h i s J-M p l a n t w ith 23 Of f ic ia l Reporter Company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001357 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 Tel. 572-4324 240 1 the two-card study, I forget the exact ex h ib it, with respect 2 t o c l e a n i n g th e a i r , you s a i d t h a t P l a n t No 10 d i d n o t use 3 th a t method? 4 A Having to do w ith the d u s t c o l l e c t o r s , you mean? 5 Q Yes. 6 A Yes, that is rig h t. 7 Q But you d o n ' t know whether J-M used the method 8 used i n P l a n t 10 i n o th e r p l a n t s t h a t they had, do you? 9 A I d o n ' t know. 10 Q, Did you e v e r t r a v e l to any of the Canadian m i n e s ? 11 A I never traveled to Canadian mines. 12 Q Do you view the mining of a s b e s t o s f i b e r as 13 part of the asbestos industry? 14 MR. BROMBERG: O b je c t i o n . 15 Q In your r e p o r t s , when you r e f e r r e d to the 16 asbestos industry? 17 MR. BROMBERG: ' O b je c tio n . 18 A I answer th a t anyway; r i g h t ? 19 Q I would lik e fo r you to answer i t . 20 A I view i t as p art ofthe asb esto s industry. 21 MR. BRUCH: No o t h e r q u e s t i o n s . 22 23 Official Reporter Com pany 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001358 SILVER SPRING. MD. 2090 Tel. 572-4324 2kl 1 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT CERTAINTEED 2 BY MR. HILLY: 3 Q Mr. H orow itz, you mentioned t h a t th e committee 4 l i s t e d i n E x h i b i t 5 was p r im a r il y p r o d u c tio n peo p le. 5 When you went to Keasbey & M a t t i s o n i n I960, did 6 the other companies in the industry g en erally have in d u s tria l 7 h y g i e n i s t s or was Keasbey & M a ttis o n the o n ly one? 8 A I was n o t aware t h a t they had i n d u s t r i a l 9 h y g i e n i s t s , b u t th e y may have had. At l e a s t , they d id n o t 10 a p p e a r on the committee w i t h me. 11 Q In your r e l a t i o n s w ith th e ATI, d id you come 12 i n t o c o n t a c t w i t h o t h e r co m p an ie s' i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t s ? 13 A No . ' 14 Q So i s i t f a i r to say t h a t a t t h a t time Keasbey & 15 M a t t i s o n was, i f n o t a l o n e , v e r y u n u su a l i n hav in g an 16 In d u strial hygienist in the asbestos industry? 17 A I must h o n e s t l y say they d i d n ' t h i r e me a s an 18 i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t , a s I have s a i d b e f o r e , and a s f a r a s 19 I know -- I d o n ' t know, b u t I am p r e t t y s u r e , I d o n ' t know 20 th at Johns-Manville d id n 't have one. 21 Q How a b o u t the o t h e r companies i n the i n d u s t r y 22 as a whole? 23 A In the asbestos te x tile industry? _ O fficial Reporter Com pany 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001359 V V E R SPRING. MD. 20904 el. 572-4324 242 1 Q Yes. 2 A As f a r a s I know, they d i d n ' t have any i n d u s t r i a l , 3 .hygienists. 4 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT CERTAINTEED 5 BY MR. PONTZ: 6 Q I have one q u e s tio n . Did CertainTeed h i r e you 7 as an in d u s tria l hygienist? 8 A C e rta in T e e d k e p t me on to do what I was doing 9 before. 10 Q Did they h i r e you as an i n d u s t r i a l h y g ie n is t? 11 Were th e y aware o f your background and were you h i r e d on the 12 basis of th at background? 13 A They were aware of my background and they 14 c o n t i n u e d t o keep me on. 15 MR. PONTZ: Thank you. 16 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT CASSIAR 17 BY MS. GIBSON: 18 Q I have one q u e s t i o n . Did you meet with any 19 la w y e rs c o n n e cte d w i t h t h i s c a s e , o t h e r than me and Mr. 20 Beers, prior to this deposition? 21 A Yes, I did. 22 Q Who e l s e d i d you meet w ith ? 23 A This gentleman from Turner & Newall. ,, Offic ia l Reporter company 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001360 "L V E R SPRING. MD. 20904 T .l 243 1 Q I s t h a t Mr. Eawson you a r e i d e n t i f y i n g ? 2 A Mr. R ic h a rd Rawson. 3; 4 And t h i s gentlem an. q i s t h a t Mr. Bruch t h a t you a r e r e f e r r i n g to ? 5 A Yes. 6 MR. BRUCH: Did you meet w i t h Ms. Nancy Shea? 7 THE WITNESS: There was a n o t h e r woman t h e r e , b u t 8 I do n o t r e c a l l w h eth e r i t was Ms. Shea. 9 MS. GIBSON: I t was n o t Nancy Shea. 10 Thank you. 11 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT LAKE ASBESTOS 12 BY MR. BROMBERG: 13 Q In term s of e d u c a ti o n of th e men i n the p l a n t 14 of the d a n g e r s of a s b e s t o s , do you t h i n k t h a t was p a r t of 15 your Job a s i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t , to make s u r e t h a t th e men 16 in the p la n t were aware of a danger of asb esto s? 17 MR. BRUCH: O b je c tio n . 18 MR. HILLY: O b je c tio n . Asked and answered. 19 A I wished i t were, but I d o n 't think i t was. I 20 presented th a t wherever I could, but I had no J u r is d ic tio n . 21 My r e s p o n s i b i l i t y was d i r e c t l y t o my b o s s , Spedding. And 22 i f I th o u g h t th e y sh o u ld be e d u c a te d , I t o l d i n my r e p o r t s 23 th a t they should be educated, but I had no d ir e c t * Of f c ia l Reporter Company " J2401 Palermo Drive C9Stlem9n.CERT001361 S!LVFr G. MD. 20904 572-4324 244 1 re sp o n sib ility to the employees a t a l l . 2 Q Did you su g g e st such edu c atio n ? 3' A In c e r t a i n a r e a s . In f a c t , i n some o f the 4 testimony here I have indicated something lik e th a t. 5 Q When you s u g g e s te d such e d u c a t i o n of the men, 6 what was the r e a c t i o n t h a t you got back from your s u p e r io r s ? 7 A No r e a c t i o n a t a l l , e i t h e r p o s i t i v e or n e g a t i v e . 8 Q And we a r e t a l k i n g a bout b o th Keasbey & 9 Mattison and CertainTeed? 10 A Yes. 11 MR. BROMBERG: No o t h e r q u e s t i o n s . 12 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT CERTAINTEED . 13 BY MR. BRUCH: 14 Q, I have one q u e s tio n w ith r e s p e c t to t h a t . 15 Mr. H orow itz, i n your m e e ti n g s w i t h the A sbestos 16 T e x tile I n s t i t u t e and the knowledge th a t you brought back, 17 was t h e r e doubt a s to th e dangers e x p r e s s e d by people? 18 A I b e l i e v e t h e r e was d o u b t, y e s . 19 Q In f a c t , t h e r e was a g r e a t e r doubt p r i o r to Dr. 20 S e l i k o f f 's speech in 1964; rig h t? 21 A Yes, there was. 22 Q i s n 't i t a fact, d id n 't Dr. S elikoff remain 23 ambivalent, at times, with respect to his position, as far Of f ic ia l Reporter Co m p a n y ,, 12401 Palermo D^ ri.ve Castleman.CERT001362 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 245 1 a s you were concerned, even a f t e r 1964? 2 A I d o n ' t know what you mean by a m b i v a l e n t . 3- Q Did he ever change what he sa id a t d i f f e r e n t times, a f t e r 1964, regarding the dangers of asbestos? ' 5 A No, n o t i n g e n e r a l . 6 Q How a b o u t s p e c i f i c a l l y ? Did he e v e r convey to 7 you th e amount of f i b e r needed f o r someone to c o n t r a c t 8 a s b e s t o s i s or any o th e r a s b e s t o s - r e l a t e d d is e a s e ? Did he 9 know t h e e x a c t amount o f f i b e r ? 10 A Only w ith in the a re a of mesothelioma did he give 11 a d i f f e r e n t opinion, but in a s b e s to s is he did no t. 12 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT BELL ASBEST 13 BY MR. GALLO: 14 Q Mr. H orow itz, I j u s t have a few more q u e s t i o n s . 15 Did you e v e r make any r e q u e s t of a s u p p l i e r of 16 raw a s b e sto s to e i t h e r the Keasbey & M attison or CertainTeed 17 p l a n t , t h a t th e y somehow I n s t r u c t the w orke rs a t the p l a n t ? 18 A I did not. 19 Q Did you have any co n tact with the s u p p lie rs of 20 raw a s b e s to s ? 21 A I had no contact with them. 22 Q, Did you e v e r recommend to y o u r s u p e r i o r s 23 e i t h e r -- l e t ' s s t a r t w i t h Keasbey & M a t t i s o n , t h a t they make O fficial Reporter 12401 Palermo F JSfLVER S!>K 'Mr- Tel Co m pany ve Castleman.CERT001363 2090* 246 1 such a req u est of the su p p liers of raw asb esto s? 2 A I did not. 3 Q Did you e v e r make a r e q u e s t of your s u p e r i o r s a t 4 CertainTeed along those lines? 5 A I did not. 6 Q When you were f i r s t h i r e d by Keasbey & M a ttis o n 7 and th e y c a l l e d you down f o r t h a t i n t e r v i e w a t Ambler w ith 8 Mr. Spedding and Mr. S c h n e i d e r , d i d th e y re v ie w w ith you what 9 t h e i r previous p r a c t ic e s had been as f a r a s dust counts, 10 dust control, th eir concern about asbestos or asbestosis? 11 A I don't r e c a ll i f they did. 12 Q Did they express to you an y thing along the lin e s 13 t h a t th e y needed someone w ith more e x p e r t i s e than they had 14 p r e v i o u s l y had and t h a t i s why they were b r i n g i n g you i n ? 15 A No. Although to your p r e v i o u s q u e s t i o n , they 16 t o l d me th e y had equipment f o r sa m p lin g . 17 Q I t h i n k you mentioned Mr. Schmidt, who had been 18 doing i t before? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Did you e v e r meet Mr. Schmidt? 21 A No. 22 Q I t h i n k you s a i d you review ed some of h i s c o u n ts? 23 A I saw some of h i s r e s u l t s , y e s . Official Reporter Com pany 12401 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001364 SILVER SPRING. MD. 20904 2^7 1 Q Other than the r e s u l t s compiled by Mr. Schmidt, 2 a r e you aware or were you a t any time made aware of anyone 3 e l s e who had done t h a t type of c o u n t in g or s u r v e y i n g f o r 4 Keasbey & Mattison? 5 A They c a l l e d a c o n s u lta n t in to h elp them with 6 dust c o n tro l, Dr. Melvin F i r s t , from Harvard U niversity, a t 7 one t i m e , to review some of t h e i r d u s t c o n t r o l equipment i n 8 P l a n t 4 , and he wrote a r e p o r t on i t . That was the only 9 knowledge I have of anybody p re v io u s t o me. 10 Q That was b e f o r e you came w ith them? 11 A Yes. I found a report of th is . 12 Q Do you s t i l l have t h a t r e p o r t by Dr.F i r s t ? 13 A No, I d o n ' t have t h a t . T hat wasi n the f i l e 14 somewhere. 15 Q Did you have an o p p o r t u n i t y , though, to review 16 i t a f t e r you came w ith them? 17 A Yes, I did. 18 Q Do you r e c a l l what h i s c o n c l u s i o n s were? 19 A I t needed improvement. 20 Q Do you remember a b o u t when he made t h a t study? 21 In terms of, your coming w ith them was i t i n f a i r l y r e c e n t 22 y e a r s o r had i t been a s much a s a decade b e f o r e ? A Within four years, I'd say. 23 Official Reporter company 12401 Palermo Drive C9Stlem9n.CERT001365 SILVER SI'K ' <D. ?090< VI. 5 /, - 4 3 2 4 248 1 Q And what e x a c t l y had h i s s tu d y covered? 2 A He was j u s t c a l l e d i n to e v a l u a t e t h a t p a r t l c u l a i 3 'dust control system. 4 Q, In which p l a n t ? 5 A In Plant 4. 6 Q Did i t make s p e c i f i c mention of a s b e s t o s d u s t? 7 A I t was a s b e s t o s d u s t , m ix tu re of a s b e s t o s and 8 other m aterials. 9 Q Do you r e c a l l i f Mr. Spedding and Mr. S chneider 10 mentioned his study in connection with their interview with 11 you in d e s crib in g -- 12 A No, they did n o t . 13 14 15 Nicolet. MR. BRUCH: Did you mean to say P l a n t 4? THE WITNESS: P l a n t 4, I s a i d , r i g h t , which was 16 Q Do you know the p r e s e n t w hereabouts of e i t h e r 17 Mr. S c r a n t o n or Mr. Reach? 18 A. No. 19 Q Do you know whether e i t h e r of them went with 20 CertainTeed? 21 A Mr. Spedding did n o t . 22 Q I 'm s o r r y , Mr. S c r a n to n or Mr. Reach? 23 A Oh. I d o n ' t know w hethe r they d id or n o t . I O f f i c i '" R e p o r t e r C o m p a n y !01 Palermo Drive Castleman.CERT001366 ... KING. MD. 20904 Tl K7~> A 249 1 have no idea 2 MR. GALLO: That i s a l l I have. Thank you 3 (Concluded a t 6:40 p.m.) 4 5 6 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY 7 I , Gerald N e v i t t , the o f f i c e r b e f o r e whom the 8 f o r e g o i n g d e p o s i t i o n was ta k en , hereby c e r t i f y t h a t the 9 w i t n e s s whose te stim o n y a p p e a r s h e r e i n was duly sworn by me; IO t h a t the te stim o n y of the w itn e s s was taken by me i n s h o r t 11 hand and t h e r e a f t e r reduced to t y p e w r i t i n g under my 12 d ire c tio n ; that the deposition is a true record of the 13 te s tim o n y given by the w i t n e s s ; t h a t I am n e i t h e r counsel 14 f o r , r e l a t e d to , nor employed by any of the p a r t i e s or 15 a t t o r n e y s t o the a c t i o n i n which t h i s d e p o s i t i o n was taken, 16 nor f in a n c ia lly or otherwise in te re s te d in i t s outcome. 17 18 19 / 20 Notary Public 21 D i s t r i c t of Columbia 22 My Commission e x p i r e s F ebruary 28, 1983 23 / / V O fficial R e po r t er Co m pa n y mm r>m. n,;*.. Castleman.CERT001367 SIL V MD. 20904 4^94