Document 2jYNKXzbZZEzn4oqVrYBzvn7L

FILE NAME Talc TALC DATE 1989 July DOC TALC001 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION Legal - Deposition of Barry Castleman Hh 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF OKLAHOMA ) ) Plaintiff ) ) VS. ) ) ARMSTRONG WORLD INDUSTRIES ) INC VERMONT TALC COMPANY ) et al - , Defendants ) COPY No. 1417 ******************************* ******************************* VOLUME I OF THE DEPOSITION OF BARRY CASTLEMAN Taken on Behalf of the Defendants on July 5th 6th and 7th 1989 in Baltimore Maryland * * * ************************ APPEARANCES ************************ ************************ * * * * * * * * ************************ * * * * * * * * * * * * ************************ ************************ ************************ * * * * * * * * ************************ For the Plaintiff JAMES HAYS Attorney 127 N.W. 10th Oklahoma City Oklahoma 73102 For the Defendant Milwhite Co MICHAEL W. HINKLE Attorney One Leadership Square 5th Floor Oklahoma City Oklahoma 73102 For the Defendant Picher CURTIS P. CHEYNEY II Attorney COURTNEY S. GRAY Attorney 1700 Land Title Building Philadelphia Pennsylvania C.S.R. ASSOCIATES For the Defendant Corning SCOTT RHODES Attorney 1215 Classen Drive Oklahoma -and- City Oklahoma 73103 JAMES H. CROSBY Attorney 2970 Cottage Hill Road Suite Mobile Alabama 36606 210 For the Defendant Harwick Chemical JAMES R. P.O. Box SCRIVNER 1373 Attorney Ada Oklahoma 74820 For the Defendant A.W. Chesterton JACQUELINE O'NEIL HAGLUND 525 South Main Attorney 10 Suite 1400 Park Centre Tulsa Oklahoma 74103 11 For the Defendant Southern Talc 12 JOHN DUNNERY Attorney 2421 East Skelly Drive 13 Tulsa Oklahoma 74105 14 For the Defendant CCR ROBERT H. HOOD Attorney 15 CARL E. PIERCE Attorney ROBIN S. LEE Paralegal 16 172 Meeting Street Charleston South Carolina 29401 17 For the Defendant Southern Clay 18 NANCY SIEGEL Attorney Nine East 4th Street 19 Suite 400 Tulsa Oklahoma 74103 20 For the Defendant Vermont Talc 21 TOM GOSS Attorney 25 South Charles Street Suite 1900 22 Baltimore Maryland 21201 23 For the Defendant Georgia Talc MICHAEL D. CARTER Attorney 24 20th Floor First National Center Oklahoma City Oklahoma 73102 25 C.S.R. ASSOCIATES qs For the Defendant C.P. Hall Company DAN CRAWFORD Attorney P.O. Box 2619 Tulsa Oklahoma 74101-2619 For the Defendant International Talc DAN WAGNER Attorney P.O. Box 1560 Tulsa Oklahoma 74101-1560 For the Defendant Pittsburgh & Illinois WM GREGORY JAMES Attorney 900 ONEOK PLAZA Tulsa Oklahoma 74103 For the Defendant Anchor Packing WILLIAM F. MAHONEY Attorney 10 20 S. Clank Street Suite 700 Chicago Illinois 11 -and- WILLIAM D. PERRINE Attorney 12 2800 Fourth National Bank Building Tulsa Oklahoma 74119 13 For the Defendant McNeil Corporation 14 JEFFREY J. CASTO Attorney 75 East Market Street 15 Akron Ohio 44308 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 10 11 12 13 14 15 17 18 19 20 CERTIFICATE APPEARANCES 2... 1... ww ew ee STIPULATION . . 2. 1. 1. 6 1 ww ew we DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR CROSBY . CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR HINKLE ..... CONFERENCE WITH THE MAGISTRATE ... . FURTHER CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR HINKLE CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR WAGNER ..... VOLUME II 2. 1 1 sw ew ew we ee CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR GOSS ... CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR HOOD ... FURTHER DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR CROSBY CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR PERRINE CROSS EXAMINATION BY MS HAGLUND FURTHER CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR HOOD . JURAT 6 6 6 ew ew ew we wt te tt th ew tw CERTIFICATE CERTIFICATE CERTIFICATE CERTIFICATE . e e . e e e e e a e e 1-3 .6 125 .176 200 336 339 340 351 .438 .536 .537 539 565 566 22 23 24 25 C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 5 STIPULATIONS It is hereby stipulated and agreed by and between the parties hereto through their respective attorneys that the deposition of BARRY I. CASTLEMAN may be taken on behalf of the Defendants on this the 5th 6th 7th day of July 1989 in the City of Baltimore Maryland by Marjorie Parker Miller Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public within and for the State of Oklahoma taken by notice and subpoena It is further stipulated and agreed by and between the 10 parties hereto through their respective attorneys that all 11 objections to questions propounded and answers thereto made 12 except as to the form of the question or the responsiveness of 13 the witness answer may be made at the time of the trial when 14 said deposition is offered in evidence with the same force and 15 effect as if said objections were made at the time of the 16 taking of this deposition 17 It is further stipulated and agreed by and between the 18 parties hereto through their respective attorneys that the 19 time of filing is waived 20 21 22 23 24 25 C.S.R. ASSOCIATES Thereupon the witness was produced by the defendants BARRY I. CASTLEMAN the witness hereinbefore named being first duly cautioned and sworn to testify the truth testified as follows CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR CROSBY Q. Would you give us your full name please A. Barry Ira Castleman BY MR CHEYNEY Usual stipulations 10 MR HAYS Yes 11 MR CROSBY Can we also agree that if there 12 is an objection by one defendant that that objection 13 is adopted by all defendants unless a defendant 14 opts out 15 MR HAYS No. I won't agree to that I want 16 them to stay awake for this deposition and not read 17 papers like they did at the last one 18 MR PIERCE That's going to make a horrible 19 transcript 20 MR HAYS We will see how it goes If it gets 21 too garbled we'll discuss it later 22 MR CROSBY Let me caution everybody in case 23 you all didn't hear it the plaintiffs are refusing to 24 allow the objection by one defendant to be deemed 25 adopted by all defendants Therefore if anyone has C.S.R. ASSOCIATES an objection you should state your objection in full and each defendant that wishes to join that objection should adopted that objection and maybe state it in full and restate any additional objections And then if anyone wishes to adopt any additional objections you should state that on the record also MR HAYS Let the record reflect that we have agreed to reserve all objections except as to form MR RHODES I might also state at this time 10 Jim that the Northern District of Oklahoma has set 11 forth a certain asbestos trial protocol which has been 12 adopted in the in re Asbestos Cases insofar as they 13 pertain to Mark Iola's plumbers and pipe fitters 14 That protocol I anticipate will in large be adopted 15 in the tire worker litigation with a specific provision 16 being in that protocol that an objection by one 17 defendant is deemed to be an objection by all 18 I think that it is something that is sensible 19 here and will take up a lot less time if we go ahead 20 and adopt it 21 MR HAYS Because of the lack of attention 22 during past depositions and repetitive question asking 23 not to a great degree but some I think it will help 24 the defendants pay a little more attention to the 25 deposition If it gets to be a little out of control C.S.R. ASSOCIATES then we will discuss it at a later time MR CROSBY I do not agree with the comments nor observations of counsel and move that they be stricken MR PIERCE stricken I join in that and move that they be MR JAMES I also join in that MS HAGLUND I also join in that MR PERRINE I also join in that 10 MR SCRIVNER I also join in that 11 MR CHEYNEY I'll join 12 MR GOSS I join in that too 13 MR CROSBY Mr. Hays do you and your witness 14 need to step outside to finish your conference or can 15 we continue 16 MR HAYS Which conference 17 MR CROSBY Well I just saw you whispering to 18 him something and I didn't know if needed to -- 19 MR HAYS You hadn't started asking him 20 questions 21 MR CROSBY Yes sir I had asked him we had 22 proceeded with the deposition 23 MR HAYS Has the deposition started 24 MR CROSBY Yes 25 MR HAYS All right C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 2] \ MR CROSBY He has been sworn and I had asked him to state his name and he had stated it on the record MR HAYS I didn't realize we were that far into it MR JAMES Pay attention Q. By Mr. Crosby just whispered in your ear Could you tell me what counsel A. He made some kind of a wisecrack about you all I 10 don't even remember what he said 11 Q. Do you have a preference as to how you are 12 addressed as to whether it's Mister or Barry or Doctor or 13 what 14 MR HAYS Counsel you've deposed the man 15 several times you ought to know what he prefers 16 MR CROSBY No sir I don't 17 MR HAYS You don't remember 18 MR CROSBY No sir I don't 19 THE WITNESS Mr. Crosby you can call me 2 whatever you feel comfortable calling me It doesn't 2 matter to me one bit 2 MR CROSBY All right 223 THE WITNESS At least not in the deposition 24 Q. By Mr. Crosby Sir I have taken your deposition 25 previously and I understand you have been deposed on other C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 10 occasions Could you tell me approximately how many times you have been deposed A. I have been deposed over 60 times since March of 1979 in asbestos litigation Q. And how many times have you been deposed in other litigation A. I don't think I have been deposed in any other litigation but asbestos There was an asbestos case in Delaware that also involved Dupont and chemical hazards and I 10 think I talked a little bit about chemical hazards as well 11 Q. And approximately how many times have you 12 testified in a court of law 13 A. About 85 times 14 Q. Approximately what percentage of those is asbestos 15 related 16 A. All of it 17 Q. Even though you're apparently familiar with the 18 procedure if I ask you a question and you do not understand a 19 portion of the question or the entire question please let me 20 know because if you answer the question it will be assumed by 21 me that you have understood the question all portions of the 22 question and have given your best complete answer under oath 23 Is that all right with you 24 A. Yes 25 Q. Were you served with a subpoena with respect to C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 11 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 this deposition A. Yes Q. Did you bring that with you A. I think so I think it's in here MR CROSBY We will mark as Exhibit 1 the deposition subpoena with the attached Exhibit A And as Exhibit 2 the notice to take deposition stamp filed June 23 1989 Jack C. Silver U.S. District Court MR HAYS For the record we filed an objection to the subpoena served on Dr. Castleman provided him with a copy and I forwarded a copy to Mr. Hinkle as lead counsel And soon as I get copies I will give the rest of the counsel copies MR CROSBY Exhibit 3 is apparently the coversheet that apparently accompanied the subpoena And Exhibit 4 is a copy of plaintiff's objection on behalf of Barry I. Castleman Q. By Mr. Crosby Sir have you filed personally or has any attorney on your behalf filed any objection to the subpoena and the request for documents to be produced A. I haven't been represented by counsel on this matter nor have I filed any documents on my own Q. Did you bring any documents with you to this deposition C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 12 A. Yes Q. Could I have the materials that you brought with you please A. Witness produces documents Q. When were you first contacted by the attorneys involved in these cases in connection to consulting with them or testifying A. Sometime within the past year exactly when I don't know 10 Q. Do you recall who first contacted you 11 A. Yes I am pretty sure it was Mr. Hays although I 12 spoke with Mr. Norman as well within a short time after the 13 initial contact 14 Q. What was your understanding of your role in 15 connection with these cases 16 A. My understanding was that in addition to -- well 17 that these attorneys represented rubber workers and that the 18 rubber workers they represented had allegedly developed 19 asbestos diseases as well as pulmonary problems 20 attributable to talc That I was to basically testify as I 21 have done many times before about the history of knowledge 22 about the hazards of asbestos and the foreseeability of harm to 23 people using asbestos products And also to similarly 24 investigate the history of literature relating to the hazards 25 of talc so that so as to develop a basis for opinions about C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 13 the availability of knowledge to sellers of talc used industrially as in rubber plants MR CROSBY For the record and on behalf of my client let me state that we are proceeding with this deposition in the nature of a discovery deposition to determine this witnesses opinions or purported opinions relating to the matters that he has just revealed to us By going forward in this manner we do not in any way wish to waive any 10 objections that we have to this witness offering any 11 quote expert opinions close quote in areas 12 relating to health aspects of any substance 13 particularly asbestos with respect to my clients 14 Nor do we wish to in any way waive any objections 15 that we may have with respect to this witness testifying 16 in any respect as an expert including as an expert with 17 respect to the development of the scientific and medical 18 literature relating to the alleged health aspects or 19 hazards of asbestos talc soapstone and clay 20 MR CHEYNEY Join in that objection 21 MR HOOD I am Bobby Hood on behalf of 22 CCR we join in that 23 MR JAMES Greg James on behalf of 24 Illinois and Pittsburgh we also join in 25 that C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 14 MS HAGLUND I'm Jacqui Haglund on behalf of A.W. Chesterton we would also join in that objection in statement of waiver position MR PERRINE Anchor Packing also joins MR SCRIVNER We join also on that statement MR GOSS Tom Goss on behalf of Vermont Talc we join MR DUNNERY John Dunnery on behalf of Southern Talc we also join 10 MR CROSBY And I guess as a precaution I will 11 make that objection on behalf of those defendants that 12 are not present It was my understanding and I think 13 it may have been some other's understanding that this 14 witness was going to be deposed in another matter first 15 thing this morning and that these proceedings would not 16 begin first thing So some individuals may not be here 17 at this time since the matter was rescheduled when the 18 other deposition became moot If they don't want to 19 adopt it they can certainly unadopt my statement but 20 I think in light of Counsel not allowing all defendants 21 to adopt automatically I will do that on their behalf 22 for whatever good that may do them 23 Q. By Mr. Crosby Sir let me begin with Exhibit 5 24 which is a letter appears to be a letter of May 19 1979 to 25 Mr. Hinkle from Mr. Norman with the copy to you relating to C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 this deposition Do you recall receiving that document A. Yes Q. Let me show a document that I will mark as Exhibit No. 6 which is a letter to you or to Mr. Barry Castleman and its salutation is Dear Dr. Castleman But it encloses or purports to enclose a check in the amount of 1,000 as payment to you as a retainer of your services as an expert in all tire worker cases an additional payment of 300 made payable to Paul Edholm m for his services in researching and providing us with articles dealing with the substance of State of the Art in talc Do you recall receiving that letter and did you in fact receive those funds A. Right yes Q. Have you provided us with the copy of the articles of Mr. Elholm's research with respect to State of the Art of talc A. You have materials from Edholm there You have additional materials as well Q. All right sir I will show you what I have marked as Exhibit 7 which purports to be a letter from Mr. Hays to you By the way in one document your name is spelled y and some others it's y Which is the correct Q. All right sir Advising you of this case or some C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 16 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cases being scheduled for trial and requesting that you block some time out on your calendar Did you receive that document A. Yes 0 Have you blocked the time out A. No. Q. Do you anticipate presenting testimony in the trial of this case live A. If the case goes to trial I do yes Q. Next which is number -- Defendant's 8 is a letter or purports to be a letter to you from Ms. Conn o forwarding two articles one entitled Respiratory Morbidity in Rubber Workers and another one Mortality e Among miners and Millers of abestiform Talc Do you recall receiving Exhibit No. 8 and the articles referred to A. Yes Q. A letter dated June 29th I think of this year A. Yes Q. It was Federal Expressed so you should have received it on or about June 30th A. Yes Q. Are those articles included in this stack of documents that you have sent me given to me A. I don't know if they are or not Q. Did you request those articles A. No. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES Q. Had you -- A. I didn't request any articles from Mr. Norman or his associates although some articles were sent to me partly because Mr. Edholm had misunderstood some of my instructions and not made me copies of some of the articles which he also sent to the law firm And so when the law firm realized this they did send me some copies of some articles just to make sure that I got them Q. Who is Mr. Edholm 10 A. Mr. Edholm is a researcher I use in Washington DC 11 Q. Does he work for you exclusively 12 A. No. 13 Q. How long have you used Mr. Edholm 14 A. About a year or two 15 Q. Do you have a CV of Mr. Edholm or do you know 16 anything about his background 17 A. I don't have a CV from Mr. Edholm His 18 background -- I used to use another researcher in Washington 19 and when she left Washington DC she found Mr. Edholm for me 20 Mr. Edholm does research There are occupations in 21 Washington DC that do not exist in most parts of the country 22 and there are apparently people who make a living just digging 23 things up for people 24 Q. I agree with that 25 A. And in Washington this is probably a thriving C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 18 industry In any event Mr. Elholm does this He has done in fact checking I think for News Week and Times or other kinds of national publications I forget exactly what they were but he's told me a little bit about other work that he's done And so he is basically an individual who is familiar with how to use a library whether it be a medical library library of congress or more typical common type of library or a library in a government agency He's familiar with how to walk into government offices and ask for access to government files So 10 I have used him for those kinds of purposes for research in 11 Washington 12 Q. Do you know what his educational background is 13 A. No. 14 Q. Do you know if he graduated from high school 15 A. I don't know I have never asked him about his 16 educational background He does very competent work that's 17 all I can tell you based on -- he does competent work Some 18 of it has been very competent some of it has been competent 19 Q. Is just competent the same as mediocre 20 A. No. But you know in some cases he's -- Well 21 there is a certain -- there are certain kinds of individuals 22 who are sharp enough so that once they understand what it is 23 you want they are capable of interpreting that in a way that 24 sometimes goes beyond the letter of the instruction that you 25 may have actually given them in order to be more inclusive in C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 19 19 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the material that they bring back Q. What did Mr. Edholm -- A. I am finished Q. am sorry What did Mr. Edholm charge for performing whatever it is he does A. Well this type of work I pay him 25 an hour plus expenses Q. What other type of work does he do A. Well I don't really know what he does for other people You mean for me aside from legal work Q. Just anything that you know about Because you have indicated for this type of work you paid him 25 an hour which indicates to me that for some other type of work you may pay him more or less A. That's correct There is other kinds of work that I do for which I pay a lower rate because it's work that I do at my own initiative for which I am not reimbursed by anybody but work that I feel is interesting and needs to be done my own research if you will And Mr. Edholm is willing to do work of that kind for 15 or 20 an hour plus expenses Q. So he may be performing the same services it's just that since it's for you individually rather than for a law firm or other entities that may have retained you he gives you a break on his fee A. Yes you could put it that way And it's C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 20 basically -- the rates were determined by me and accepted by him Q. Approximately how many hours per month or whatever time increment is best suited for your response does Mr. Edholm perform services for you either at the 25 or 10 or 15 or any rate A. It's very sporadic Sometimes some months go by I don't talk to Mr. Edholm at all And then there might be other months where I might have him working on two or three projects 10 at the same time 11 Q. Do you know anyone else or any other entity for 12 whom Mr. Edholm performs these services 13 A. Well as I said he mentioned some kind of a 14 national publication like Time Magazine or whatever it was I 15 forget I don't know who all his other clients are I have 16 never asked him about his other 17 Q. Who was the person that he replaced 18 A. I can't remember her name at this point 19 Q. Other than the name other than the person that he 20 replaced do you know anyone else or have you checked with 21 anyone else with respect to Mr. Edholm's qualifications 22 A. No. I mean I am satisfied by -- My way of 23 finding out how qualified somebody is is by giving them 24 something to do and seeing how well they do it That's the 25 only thing that matters to me I have done that with C.S.R. ASSOCIATES Mr. Edholm to my own satisfaction I mean they could have a PhD and if they do lousy research I don't want them for 10 an hour Q. Did you write Mr. Edholm a letter with respect to what you requested him to do in this situation A. I think I just told him by phone 0 Can you recall what you told Mr. Edholm A. I told him - I did have a list of references from sometime or another I had put together a list of old 10 references on talc that I had come across long before I got 11 involved in this litigation and I sent him those articles 12 I had also noticed that George Peters in his book 13 source book on asbestos diseases had references to articles on 14 talc as well And so I told Mr. Edholm to go through the 15 articles to first get all the articles on the list that I had 16 on my handwritten list to then go to the library locate a 17 copy of George Peters's source book go through the 18 bibliography in George Peters's book and pull out everything 19 that had talc in the title of the article And then to go 20 through the articles that he had thus accumulated and look at 21 bibliographies of those articles for references cited by them 22 dealing with health hazards of talc And this what he did 23 Q. So if there are articles out there about about 224 talc that don't have the word talc in the title you may not 25 have it C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 22 A. That is right I don't believe that I have a complete file I know I didn't have a complete file of every single article that has been written about the health hazards of talc I have mainly confined my research to the period prior to the 1970s Although there are articles that are included that go into the 1970s as well Q. And the materials that you have provided to me are your handwritten notes is your handwritten list amongst them A. I don't think so 10 Q. Do you still have a copy of that handwritten list 11 I mean there are a couple of handwritten lists here Are 12 either one of these -- 13 A. I don't know if I have that I probably do H 14 probably photocopied the handwritten list and sent it to 15 Edholm 16 Q. Let me mark as Exhibit No. 9 this document that 17 has a title or appears to be a title Talc in Rubber 18 Industry-- and then insert --Respiratory Hazards The word 19 Respiratory appears to replace Health Could you tell me 20 what Exhibit No. 9 is 21 A. Exhibit 9 are notes that I made regarding articles 22 that were published that made reference to pulmonary problems 23 attributed to the use of talc in industry in particular in the 24 rubber industry The texts are texts that for the most part 25 happen to be texts that I personally own I have a few dozen C.S.R. ASSOCIATES old boxs on occupational diseases But this is by no means a complete review of everything that appears in any textbooks on occupational diseases This is just a quick look through a sampling of such texts The journal reports are journal articles relating to chest disease or abnormal ray findings or normal pulmonary function and so on in people who worked with talc in rubber plants rubber plants of various kinds And these articles were published starting in 1931 and I think the latest one 10 included in this list is 1959. I think at that point I just 11 stopped keeping a list 12 Q. Did you prepare that Exhibit 9 before or after you 13 had talked to Mr. Edholm 14 A. Well I talked to Mr. Edholm on a number of 15 occasions 16 Q. About this particular project 17 A. This is after I had gathered up the materials that 18 Mr. Edholm was able to provide me 19 Q. So did that list on Exhibit 9 include some of the 20 articles that Mr. Edholm located as well as something from some 21 of the journals or texts in your own custody 22 A. Yes 23 Q. Let me show you what I have marked as Exhibit 10 24 Could you identify that for me please as to just what the 25 document is not what it contains C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 24 A. This is a summary which I have put together reviewing the literature on talc as a respiratory disease agent Q. Is that in your handwriting A. That is my handwriting Q. Has there been a typed version of that A. No. Q. Do you use a word processor or any kind of computer in your research or writings 10 A. I do but I didn't in this case 11 Q. Since we are going to resume tomorrow will you be 12 able to provide us tomorrow the handwritten list that you 13 provided Mr. Edholm tomorrow morning 14 A. Sure if I can find it 15 Q. Have you ever testified in a case involving tire 16 workers or rubber workers 17 A. No. 18 Q. Never in deposition or in court 19 A. No. 20 Q. These articles that I have before me that I am 21 going to go through are these your only copies of these or 22 are these extra copies 23 A. These are my only copies I mean there might be 24 some of these articles I might have other copies of some place 25 But for the purposes of talc litigation these are my only C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 25 25 copies this is my only set of such documents assembled for this purpose Q. We will undertake to label each one since they are clipped and not stapled then the chance of them getting messed up during the copying process will be reduced we will label each one with its own exhibit number and try to get copies made either this afternoon or this evening at a copy service and return the copies or the originals to you so that you will be able to go through and see that you have everything back we 10 hope 11 MR CROSBY I am assuming that's is agreeable to 12 all the other defendants 13 Q. By Mr. Crosby Do I understand so that I don't 14 have to guess tell me please sir if there is a general 15 category buy which this stack of documents can be identified 16 what this is 17 A. It's literature on health effects or adverse 18 health effects from breathing talc There might be one article 19 in there that relates to suspected ovarian cancer in women who 20 were exposed to talc generally This was published in the 21 1970s 22 There is also a letter of mine to the Food and Drug 23 Administration in 1972 asking for certain restrictions on use 24 of talc based on that article But otherwise the articles are 25 about the hazards or at least investigations relating to the C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 26 inhalation of talc Q. Prior to this deposition have you testified in any form with respect to health aspects of talc A. I don't think so Q. Let me rephrase it because I don't want it to sound any way other than it's meant Are you a medical doctor A. No. Q. Are you taking any courses currently to become a medical doctor 10 A. No. I have a Doctor of Science Degree from 11 Hopkins Hygiene and Public Health 12 Q. I am marking Defendant's Exhibit No. 11 a 13 document ~- sir you always try to stump me with the first one 14 entitled apparently and I will butcher some language and I 15 don't mean to I think its La Medicina del Lavoro is that 16 right Would you help me with that 17 A. That was excellent Of course I don't speak 18 Italian either Actually I speak a little Italian when it 19 comes to reading articles on asbestos and talc 20 Q. Does this article deal -- Let me show you No. 11 21 Does that deal solely with the subject of talc if you know 22 Or is there any other substance that is referred to in that 23 article 24 A. Well that is kind of a tricky question because 25 talc itself is kind of a -- very often a combination of things C.S.R. ASSOCIATES But this article is called Pneumoconiosis from Talc It's an article by a Dr. Zanelli n In Zanelli's case worked in a factory making tires for automobiles according to Page 7 where I have underlined the occupational history and involved exposure to quantities of talc powder according to that Q. Was this plant in Italy A. I believe so c Have you ever been to a tire worker plant 10 A. No. 11 Q. Do you know if the working conditions at the plant 12 made the subject of the article written as No. 11 in any way 13 resemble the plant conditions made the subject of the lawsuit 14 about which we are visiting today 15 A. Resembles it in the sense that talc is used in 16 rubber processing for similar purposes as an agent to keep you 1177 know the rubber products from sticking And I am operating 18 correctly or incorrectly under the assumption that that is the 19 purpose of the talc in the bicycle tire plant and that is at 20 least similar if not identical to the use of talc in the tire 21 plant in Oklahoma But I am stating all my assumptions so that 22 it's very clear what I know and what I don't know and what I 23 am making assumptions about 24 Q. Do you know if the talc utilized in the Italian 25 plant was similar or substantially the same as the talc C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 28 utilized in the Oklahoma plant A. I don't know about the -- let me take a look at the article again I don't see a mineralogical analysis of the talc as I look through this article very quickly I think at this early stage of the literature on talc people weren't focusing in that carefully on the mineralogical constituants of the individual talcs involved in the various plants where adverse effects were reported But again it's possible that somewhere in here there is some kind of a description of the 10 mineralogy of the talc involved 11 Q. What's the date of that article please 12 A. 1931 13 Q. Have you reviewed any of the medical records of 14 any of the individuals in this particular lawsuit 15 A. No. 16 Q. Have you reviewed any documents or materials of 17 any type with respect to the B.F. Goodrich plant in Miami 18 Oklahoma Oklahoma 19 A. No. I think I looked briefly at some kind of a 20 NIOSH survey that was done sometime in the 1970s or the 80s 21 maybe 80s I believe 22 Q. Do you have that with you 23 A. No I don't 24 Q. Do you know if you still have that back at your 25 office or your home C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 29 29 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. I don't know if I have it or if I threw it out If I have it I will bring it in I assumed that that was known to you all Q. Do you know of any of the individuals who were employed at the tire worker plant in Miami Oklahoma have any disease that is related to their occupation A. Well that goes beyond the scope of my area of expertise I am not here as a physician I would have to rely on reports of other expects to give you an answer on that I don't think that legally speaking that is worth much Q. All right sir Let me show you what has been stickered as No. 12. Is that an article entitled Talc promulgated or published by the International Labor Office A. Yes This is from the International Labor Office Encyclopedia called Occupation and Health Q. And the date of that publication A. 1934 is when the second volume of that encyclopedia was published Q. So far No. 11 and 12 were both of those provided by Mr. Edholm A. two Yes I believe that Mr. Edholm came up with these 0. Have you conducted an independent survey or undertaken any independent research to determine the accuracy of Mr. Edholm's efforts C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 30 A. Well I have in the sense that I have looked at the articles themselves and I have found that there are some articles that they cite that are not included Now I know what some of those articles say because of secondary references to them in the articles that I have seen But I am at this time endeavoring to procure those articles and they will be provided as soon as I get them So I would say that Mr. Elholm's work was in this particular case good but not great There were things that I would have hoped he would have 10 picked up that he didn't pick up including articles published 11 in the British Medical Journal and British Journal of 12 Industrial Medicine as well as articles published in foreign 13 language journals 14 I think I have a good picture of how the literature 15 developed on talc based on what I have here before me and I 16 can't imagine that anything that is still outstanding would 17 significantly alter opinions that I have developed regarding 18 the foreseeability of harm to workers using talc industrially 19 particularly in rubber plants 20 Q. Do you have a list of the articles or references 21 that Mr. Edholm did not provide 22 A. I don't have it here now 223 Q. Do you have it back at your office or at your 24 home 25 A. Well I have handed it to somebody who's going to C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 31 31 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 get me the references as soon as they can And I may have it this afternoon I will give you the list and the articles that I get at that time either this afternoon or tomorrow Hopefully this afternoon Q. A. Baltimore To whom did you give that list An attorney with the office of Mr. John Sutter in Q. And when did you deliver that to him A. I gave that to him this morning just before this deposition started Q. Was that the handwritten list that you had while you were sitting over there that I seemed to notice before we started A. I don't know what you noticed There is a lot of handwritten stuff But there was one list of articles references to articles you may have noticed it you may have been looking at something else and it's a list of about I guess about 15 references handwritten references and I have asked Mister -- I am sorry I don't even know the guy's name to simply go to the libraries here in Baltimore medical libraries and make photocopies of those references I have given him the citations and I am sure that he sufficiently qualified having gone through law school to go and obtain the medical articles photocopy them at the library Q. Based on some of your early comments I am amazed C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 32 that you have that degree of confidence in attorneys Have you done anything to ascertain what his qualifications are if any with respect to retrieving medical articles A. No. But with all due respect to attorneys I think any idiot could get these articles If they could talk their way into the medical library they could get the articles off the stacks The journals are in alphabetical order within each journal series they are in chronological order When you hand somebody a list and you give them the journal name volume 10 number page numbers and the year well I think that even a 11 rather incompetent attorney could probably manage to come back 12 with the article 13 Q. Do I understand that you prepared this list by 14 reviewing these articles that we have begun going through that 15 Mr. Edholm retrieved for you 16 A. That's right 17 Q. So your list was made from other lists 18 A. My list was made from my review of other articles 19 and from the articles themselves I see references to earlier 20 work that the authors of those articles cited and I am simply 21 going back and getting those articles 22 Q. Were those articles cited in a bibliography of 23 articles 24 A. Right 25 Q. So a bibliography is a form of a list C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 33 33 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0. Oh yes in the sense that they are listed at the end of the articles that I was reviewing Q. So your list is made from several lists that are contained in these articles A. In the sense that the bibliographies of the articles can be described as a list yes Q. Do you know anything about the mineralogical components of any of the talc used at the Miami Oklahoma plant A. No. Q. Do you consider yourself to be an expert in the field of mineralogy case well A. No. I understand Dr. Langer is involved in the He can answer your questions about that probably quite Q. Which Dr. Wagner Dr. Chris Wagner A. I'm sorry I said Langer Q. Oh Langer Dr. Art Langer A. Yes Q. mineralogy So you would defer to him with respect to A. Certainly Q. Do you find him to be a competent mineralogist A. As far as I am able to judge mineralogists yes not being one myself C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 34 Q. Do you know if the talc or talcs referred to in any of these articles that I have before me which we will eventually mark as exhibits are the same or substantially the same as any of the talcs utilized at the Miami Oklahoma plant A. All I know is that they are referred to as industrial grade talcs In some cases there are mineralogical type of analyses provided in other cases there are not And so as I say I haven't focused on the mineralogy of the talc used in the Miami Oklahoma plant mainly because I really 10 haven't had the time to look at these kind of collateral 11 aspects of the case which are interesting although not 12 essential to my testimony And so for that reason I can't 13 really render the kind of comparisons you're asking me about 14 Q. With respect to the articles that you do not have 15 and that the lawyer is attempting to obtain are you going to 16 defer rendering opinions with respect to scientific development 17 of knowledge relating to talc soapstone and clay until you 18 have reviewed those articles Or are you prepared to provide 19 your opinions in those categories without the benefit of those 20 articles 21 A. Let's just say that I will offer tentative 22 opinions about talc with the proviso that I consider it 23 extremely unlikely that such opinion would be altered in light 24 of the documents that I have sought to obtain and expect to 25 obtain later today You can either deal with it that way or C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 223 22 23 24 25 you can wait until the documents come in But I really don't expect that these documents contain any great surprises I know what a number of them say because I have seen them referenced in other articles and described in substance in literature And taking as a whole the literature on talc forms I think a fairly clear picture to the extent that we know what we know forms a very clear picture I don't believe that we know everything about the hazards of talc today Q. Have you personally gone to the library and conducted any research with respect to the health aspects of talc A. Yes I have included articles in here that came out of my own files which I got out of the library at various times As I said I have been interested in talc as a health problem particularly since I started reading about asbestos in 1970 171 Q. Did you have articles in your own -- as a result of your own research that Mr. Edholm did not obtain A. Yes Generally they were more recent articles but I have a few of those and I believe they are included here Q. Let me show you what is No. 13 it's the annual report of Chief Inspector of Factories and Workshops for the year 1933. Does this relate to talc Or asbestos Or both Or neither C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Relates to both Talc is also described here as French chalk Starting on Page 63 Dr. Merewether describes examinations of workers that he had conducted continues onto 64 and 65 Q. Are those individuals that were engaged in the tire and rubber industry A. Yes I believe so Q. What was the nature of those individual's exposure to asbestos in that particular report A. I don't believe there is any reference to asbestos exposure in connection with these talc cases The asbestos it's part of an annual report of the chief inspector Asbestos is described in another part of the report Q. So this is the asbestos section of the report A. This is the talc section of the report It's got a headline it's italic title is French Chalk And I believe there is a similar entry somewhere for asbestos In any event I see tables in which asbestos is described Yes asbestos is described under heading Silicosis and Asbestosis Q. But insofar as you are able to determine from reading that particular document was the talc or French chalk asbestos free Or is one able to determine from that article A. That is what I am trying to find out I don't think that there is any comment on -- no Asbestos is only used by way of comparison to talc or French chalk and it's C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 37 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 stated asbestos is more dangerous has a greater fibrosis producing power Q. What is your understanding if you have an understanding as to the nature of any asbestos exposure that may have occurred at the Miami Oklahoma plant A. Well the plant contained thermal insulation which at least in part may be asbestos And the deterioration installation maintenance and removal of this thermal insulation was a cause of exposure to asbestos dust in the air in the plant particularly for workers whose jobs involved maintaining the insulation in the plant or piping Q. Was that a matter brought out in that Merewether report A. Merewether doesn't talk about asbestos in rubber plants He's just talking about workers exposed to talc and what he found regarding it Q. In your review of the literature when was the first publication addressing asbestos - excuse me Let me start all over First report please sir addressing health aspects of asbestos exposure from thermal insulation products in a tire worker or rubber plant A. Dozens and dozens of reports on asbestos disease from exposure to asbestos insulation dust going back to 1932 but I can't off the top of my head recall the specific reference that describes an individual whose exposure to such C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 38 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 dust was confined to working in a rubber plant There may not be any such article in print today I just don't know Q. Were you asking Mr. Hays A. articles I was just asking Mr. Hays if he knew of any such Off the top of my head - MR HAYS the deposition He won't let me talk to you during MR CROSBY Sir if you wish to talk to the witness all I ask is that you let us know that you wish to talk with him and let us know that you want to take a recess to have a discussion and if it's appropriate then I don't have any trouble with that MR HAYS Thank you MR CROSBY We may break down on what is appropriate Q. By Mr. Crosby that matter Would you defer to Mr. Hays on A. All I was asking is whether Mr. Hays knew of such an article If there are articles I would expect that it would have been published in recent years Q. And even lawyer may know about that A. Especially a lawyer might know about that where it relates to his own clients yes Q. What is your hourly rate nowadays A. For research or for deposition and trial C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 39 39 39 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 testimony Q. please Any of your various hourly rates what are they A. I charge 150 an hour for research and 200 an hour for deposition testimony or trial testimony Q. And about what percent of your time is spent in depo trial testimony A. It varies Up until September of last year I had a much more diverse life Since September of last year I have been involved in I think an average of about three trials a month and probably one deposition would be my best guess in the asbestos litigation Q. Three trials per month and about how many depositions I'm sorry I was writing A. I think probably about one deposition a month But up until last September things were a lot more managable in terms of my time to do other things I still do work on other things Q. coming up Are you subpoenaed to appear at these three trails A. Not usually I go by agreement Q. So you voluntarily go A. I haven't recognized a distinction between a subpoena appearance and an appearance that I make without a subpoena I usually agree to go or I don't go C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 40 Q. I understand you might not make a distinction but my question here is Do you voluntarily go when you appear at trial A. Yes voluntarily My involvement in the asbestos litigation is Q. So about what percent of your time since September of '88 has been involved in the asbestos litigation A. It's probably been more than half of my time for the first time in ten years probably slightly more than half 10 of my time 11 Q. And approximately what percent of your income is 12 derived from asbestos litigation 13 A. The last time I looked it was let me see it was 14 over 90 percent Most of my other work is work with public 15 interest groups environmental groups labor unions in other 16 countries health activists in other countries Generally work 17 that pays little or nothing 18 Q. Do you have any other consulting or research 19 activities that pay you 150 per hour other than 20 asbestos 21 A. Well I have done legal work of other kinds and 22 charged the same rate 23 Q. What other legal work have you done and charged 24 the same rate 25 A. I was contacted by some other lawyers at one point C.S.R. ASSOCIATES that were interested in the history of threshold limit values and had some chemical cases Q. What lawyers were they A. I don't remember their names How long ago was that About a year ago Was it before or after you authored the article that appeared in the -~ A. It was after my article that appeared in the 10 industrial journal 11 Q. Do you recall if those lawyers represented 12 plaintiffs or defendants 13 A. They said they represented plaintiffs 14 Q. And how much time did you spend on that project 15 A. I don't remember 16 Q. Well are we talking ten hours or 100 hours 17 A. Something in between 18 Q. Closer to 50 or closer to ten 19 A. I think my charges to them were something like 20 2500 21 What was the result of that endeavor 22 A. I don't know 23 Q. I mean what did you find 24 A. I don't know what they did with the information 25 Q. What did you find C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 42 A. I don't even remember exactly what I did for them now My life has been something of a blur with the amount of asbestos litigation that has gone to trial since last September Q. Do you recall what chemicals were involved A. There was a long list of chemicals Some of them I recognizseomde of them were trade name chemicals I didn't recognize Q. Do you know if it involved asbestos talc 10 soapstone or clay 11 A. It didn't involve any of those 12 Q. Let me show you what has been marked as No. 14 13 which appears to be a copy of a portion of the 1934 Annual 14 Report of the Chief Inspector of Factories and Workshops Does 15 that deal with talc Or asbestos Or both Or neither 16 A. It deals with both Talc is covered under the 17 heading French Chalk on Page 65 18 Q. With respect to your opinions relating to talc do 19 you make any distinction as to the mineralogical make of 20 talc or the form be it fibrous or fibrous 21 A. Yes 22 Q. Do those distinctions play any role in the 23 formation of the opinions that you have made respecting the 24 development of knowledge relating to alleged health aspects of 25 talc C.S.R. ASSOCIATES A. Yes and no My current view and this is something that started to gain more discussion as the literature on talc itself started to grow and people started wondering why some people were finding so much more severe affects than other people looking at talc workers My current view is that the presence of silica and asbestiform fibers came to be identified as the types of agents that would exacerbate or add to respiratory hazards associated with called pure talc as a mineral And that these kinds of 10 contaminants if you want to call them that were frequently 11 found mixed with talcs that were sold as industrial talcs 12 which were therefore mineralogically speaking mixtures not 13 pure substances 14 Q. Have you formed any opinions as to whether or 15 not -- Let me strike that and start again 16 Do your opinions with respect to health aspects of quote 17 talc close quote vary with respect to the development of 18 knowledge depending on whether or not the talc is quote 19 contaminated close quote with asbestos or silica 20 A. It depends on the time frame If a manufacturer 21 for example of -~ or a seller of industrial grade talc was 22 concerned about the possibility that his product might be 23 harmful it would certainly be necessary for such a 24 manufacturer to conduct certain types of analyses on the 25 product at a minimum to gain some insight into whether the talc C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 44 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that he was selling was of the more or less notorious kind But the literature on talc and here we really are getting into what my opinions are the literature on talc reflect a considerable amount of confusion about just what it is that was causing some talc workers to develop a disabling or even fatal pneumoconiosis and other talc workers to suffer far less severe effects even though they had evidently been exposed to substantial concentrations of talc for a number of years So it's not as if the literature here on talc is clear cut There are various mineralogical constituants which varied with the different types of talcs that were being used At least by the 1940s some of the writers appeared to be picking up on that fact and saying you know maybe there is something about this talc that is worse than that talc and starting to compare their findings with the findings of their predecessors And so this is the way the knowledge evolved But at the same time there was -- there were no clear cut findings that there is one bad factor that is present in industrial grade talcs that is causing all the disease that is associated with talc workers No one ever seems to come up with a single cause or a single agent There have been certainly some agents that had been recognized or very similar to agents that had been recognized as health hazards principally silica and asbestiform fibers C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 45 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 But the talcs the talc itself as distinct from those ingredients that were mixed in with the number of industrial talcs was also indicted in a number of articles as a cause of lung disease I am sorry to give you such a winded answer but we were eventually going to get into this anyway Seems to me sometime in the 1940s they started taking a closer look at what was in these industrial talcs and trying to figure out what were at least the principal causes of adverse health effects attributed to inhaling such talcs Q. You used the word indicted in your answer Was there ever any -- was there continuing literature relating to quote talc close quote and its quote contaminents close quote after the 40s A. Sure Q. Is it within your area of expertise to opine as to whether or not quote talc close quote contaminated with quote asbestos close quote causes an asbestos condition or disease as opposed to asbestos from some other source A. Well I guess I would have to answer that by referring to the literature itself which makes frequent comparisons between the scarring the lung scarring caused by the industrial talcs and the lung scarring caused by asbestos And this is commented on both radiologically and pathologically C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 46 in the literature that I am referring to here The findings of asbestos bodies in the lung tissues or asbestoslike bodies in lung tissues the finding of other appearances that at least resemble the picture of asbestosis And this is commented on I think starting in the 1940s by some of the authors writing about talc exposed workers So there are similarities at least between the types of damage between asbestos which were kind of separately established in the case of asbestos workers and types of 10 damage observed in talc workers The similarities were noted 11 in the literature I think starting in the 1940s 12 MR CROSBY I move to strike that as 13 nonresponsive 14 Q. By Mr. Crosby My question is Is it within 15 your area of expertise 16 A. It's within my area of expertise to relate what 17 was expressed in the literature which was available to 18 manufacturers and sellers of industrial talc yes 19 Q. So you're not saying that you personally have 20 formed an opinion based upon what you have read from that 21 literature you are telling me that within your area of 22 expertise you can relate to me your understanding of what the 23 literature imparts 24 A. I'm not sure I understand your question I am 25 doing the same kind of thing with talc that I have done with C.S.R. ASSOCIATES asbestos and that is at a minimum relating what the literature itself says and relating the availability of that literature in the United States as evidenced by the literature itself 2 All right sir And I think you are familiar with my prior objections and my probably continuing objection with respect to that testimony on your behalf But I am just trying to find out that with respect to this particular issue your area of purported expertise is that you can relate what the literature imparted to you or to others 10 who may have read it but you do not form an independent 11 scientific opinion with respect to for example causation in 12 case where an individual has been exposed to quote pure talc 13 close quote quote talc contaminated with asbestos close 14 quote or exposure to quote asbestos close quote from some 15 other source 16 A. Okay I think I understand what you're asking 17 better now I am not involved in diagnosing anybody's 18 condition medically I don't testify about causation in these 19 cases either individually either in terms of individual cases 20 or epidemiologically speaking as individuals as members of a 21 group I don't say that this person got his disease from that 22 cause That's never been included in the area of testimony 23 that I give 24 Q. In these particular cases assuming that you are 25 presented with a hypothetical to assume that an individual has C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 48 what has been from time to time referred to as quote an asbestos disease or condition close quote if you are presented with the facts that that individual or groups of individuals were exposed to quote pure talc close quote quote talc contaminated with asbestos or asbestiform fibers close quote and exposed to quote asbestos close quote from other sources such as thermal insulation is it within your area of expertise and will you proffer testimony as to what was the cause of the particular disease entities in that 10 person with those multiple exposures 11 A. I would be very loathe to offer such kinds of 12 opinions I would probably refuse to offer an opinion on such 13 a thing simply because there are other people who are better 14 suited to deal with that onerous job and I leave it to them 15 That's -- what you're asking is really much more a subject for 16 a treating physician's testimony than it would be for someone 17 like me if I understand your question correctly in terms of 18 analyzing an individual case and you know how much of this 19 person's exposure came from the talc and how much of this 20 person's exposure came from the thermal insulation In terms 21 of sorting out liability or whatever I mean that's not 22 something I even want to go near 23 Q. My question did not go to sorting liability I 24 believe that's something suited for juries in court Mine was 25 sorting out or attempting to sort out causation C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 49 49 49 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. It amounts to the same thing Q. Fortunately you are not the judge in this case because it may not So I'm trying to find out if you do endeavor to opine generally or specifically as to causation in a case of multiple exposure A. I don't expect to do anything of the kind I am not that familiar with the details of these individual's exposures and it's not the kind of testimony I have ever given It's not the kind of testimony I look forward to giving in this case either Q. Would you give it if asked A. I can't imagine circumstances underwhich I would give it if asked I mean the circumstances would have to be so clear cut as to make the question not even worth asking In other words a single type exposure and no other exposures Q. So multiple causations or multiple exposures to multiple types of talcs be they contaminated or not contaminated be they fibrous or fibrous in conjunction with exposure to asbestos from other sources would preclude your testimony in that area A. Again your question is not that clear But if I can just restate what I won't expect to be doing in this case and that is trying to weigh the -- quantitatively weighs the contributions that multiple exposures may have made in producing disease in any individual Is that clear enough C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 50 Q. I think your answer -- A. I will to the best of my ability avoid offering such testimony I don't think it's really appropriate for me I am not especially expert in that sort of thing Not that doctors necessarily are much more expert in it but it's more appropriate at least for the doctors to answer those kinds of -1 physicians I should say to answer those kinds of questions So I leave that pleasant task to them Q. Did you bring with you any medical or scientific 10 articles relating to your opinions of the development of 11 scientific and medical knowledge relating to health aspects or 12 alleged health hazards of asbestos 13 A. No. We have gone over all that many times And 14 as you know I have left behind 150 transcripts and a 700 page 15 book on that subject 16 Q. Have you -=~ 17 THE WITNESS Can we take about a ten minute 18 break 19 MR CROSBY Anybody got a problem with a ten 20 minute break Go ahead It's fine with me 21 Whereupon a short recess was taken 22 Q. By Mr. Crosby I have provided you with exhibits 23 that have been marked numbered 15 through 75. Would you please 24 look through those and at this time I would like to just mark 25 them as exhibits to this deposition we will go through them in C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 51 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 detail later but are those the articles in conjunction with No. 11 through 14 that we have already reviewed that you reviewed with respect to the development of medical and scientific knowledge relating to talc soapstone and clay and upon which you in part base your opinion regarding the development of knowledge A. Yes Q. And in addition to those as I understand it there are a few other articles which some other lawyer is in the process of obtaining today A. That a lawyer who has been given a list of references by me has gone to the library to obtain photocopies of yes Q. With respect to -- Let me make sure I have my numbers right With respect to Exhibits No. 12 through 14 are you aware of any evidence or information that Corning Fiberglass my client in this matter in any way attempted to alter delay suppress or in any other way influence or attempt to have an impact on medical and scientific literature reflected in those exhibits A. No. 147 MR HAYS Talking about specifically 12 through MR CROSBY Yes sir THE WITNESS No is the answer C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 52 Q. By Mr. Crosby Are you aware of any evidence that Corning Fiberglass in any way attempted to alter delay supress or in any way influence or have any impact on the medical and scientific literature or the development of such knowledge insofar as it relates to talc soapstone or clay A. No. Q. I can repeat that question or if you can hold it in your mind I will not But let me go at it one more time 10 Do you have any evidence that Picher in any way attempted 11 to alter delay suppress or in any manner influence or have 12 any impact on publication or development of medical and 13 scientific literature relating to talc soapstone or clay 14 A. No. 15 Q. If you can hold that question in your mind I will 16 not repeat it If not please let me know I will ask you 17 that same question with respect to Illinois 18 A. The answer would be no 19 Q. Same question with respect to Keene 20 A. The answer is no 21 Q. The same question with respect to Celotex or 22 Phillip 23 A. The answer is no 24 Q. The same question with respect to Armstrong World 25 Industries or Armstrong Industries C.S.R. ASSOCIATES A. The answer is no Q. Same question with respect to GAF Corporation A. No. Q. Same question with respect to Baldwin A. No. Q. Same question with respect to Pittsburgh A. No. Q. Same question with respect to Fibreboard A. No. 10 Q. It may be that we can shorten it Do you have any 11 information -- or excuse me do you have any evidence that any 12 corporate entity in any way attempted to influence delay 13 alter suppress or have an impact on the development or 14 publication of medical and the scientific literature relating 15 to talc soapstone or clay 16 A. I have seen something to the effect that some 17 company was in contact with Ken Lynch in 1950. I have received 18 a copy of this from the offices of Casey and Gerry in southern 19 California San Diego I don't think that company is involved 20 in this case though 21 Q. Do you recall the name of that company 22 A. No but I imagine Mr. Hays does 23 Q. Do you have a copy of the documents to which you 24 are referring 25 A. Yes I will bring them tomorrow C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 54 Q. Is it your position or opinion that contacting a person who conducts research by a corporate entity indicates that they are in some way trying to influence the medical and scientific literature A. Well no not contact per se Contact itself is the way people learn about these things But it's the nature of the contact that raised some question about the role of the company But since I haven't -- I got this information over the weekend I opened it up at about 11:00 last night and I 10 looked at it very briefly yesterday And I haven't brought it 11 because I understood that the company involved was not involved 12 in this case as a defendant and I had enough to deal with 13 without bringing it along I didn't really see that it was 14 terribly relevant to this case But you are certainly welcome 15 to examine it and if you want to ask me what my opinions are 16 on it I will take a closer look at what it actually says 17 before I accuse any company of doing anything the least bit 18 improper in the area of occupational health 19 MR CROSBY Mr. Hays if you have it here 20 with you it might shorten matters 21 MR HAYS I don't 22 MR CROSBY Do you know what it involves 23 MR HAYS Generally I would have to review 24 it myself though 25 MR CROSBY If you would bring that with you C.S.R. ASSOCIATES y' tomorrow please Q. By Mr. Crosby But other than that are you aware of any person or entity -- right MR HAYS You are addressing Dr. Castleman MR CROSBY Dr. Castleman yes Q. By Mr. Crosby --other than the correspondence to Dr. Lynch are you aware of any entity that in any way attempted to alter delay suppress or otherwise have an impact 10 or influence on the medical and scientific literature relating 11 to talc soapstone or clay 12 A. Not at this time As far as I know there have 13 been virtually no legal discovery conducted in that area And 14 since one does not find out about what has been suppressed from 15 the medical literature by going to medical libraries I wait the 16 development of additional information before closing the door 17 on that subject 18 Q. Do I take it from that that your opinions relating 19 to any efforts that in your opinion purport to demonstraight 20 attempts to alter suppress or have an impact on medical and 21 scientific literature is based upon information obtained from 22 discovery only 23 A. No. But discovery has rendered the literature a 24 lot more readable in some cases in terms of truly understanding 25 what was going on in terms of understanding what was published C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 56 as well as what was withheld or distorted Q. It's my understanding that tomorrow you desire that we adjourn at 1:00 for some purpose A. Yes Q. Could you relate to me what that is A. Yes The United States Environmental Protection Agency proposed in January of 1986 to ban asbestos in the United States ban the continuing use of asbestos to ban some products immediately and others over a period of time I have 10 received a call from the Environmental Protection Agency owing 11 to my continual contact with the EPA over that rule as a 12 consultant to the Natural Resources Defense Counsel The EPA 13 is going to hold a public announcement briefing at 3:30 14 tomorrow afternoon It's public so any of you who want to 15 come can come too And at that time the EPA will announce what 16 its final rule is going to be on the subject of the asbestos 17 bans or phase down rulings That is why I am leaving early 18 The meeting at the EPA is going to be tomorrow afternoon 19 Q. Are you the one making the announcement Or do 20 you just wish to be present when the announcement is made 21 A. I will be present when the announcement is made 22 The announcement is being made by someone in the Environmental 23 Protection Agency Either the administrator or one of the 24 assistant administrators 25 Q. Do you serve in any official capacity with the EPA C.S.R. ASSOCIATES at this time A. No. Q. Do you with respect to the asbestos ban or proposed ban A. I did in the early stages that led to the proposal ten years ago Q. What is your understanding as to what the announcement will be tomorrow A. I haven't any idea what they are going to do I 10 know what the proposed rule was and I would guess that the 11 final rule isn't going to be a whole lot different than the 12 proposed rule but it's speculation on my part to say what they 13 finally came down with 14 There were extensive hearings held after the proposed 15 rule was published in the federal register and the EPA has a 16 duty to consider all the information that it obtained during in 17 the course of those hearings from all interested parties And 18 I have really -- Since then there has been a change of 19 administration so I really don't know quite what to expect I 20 would only be guessing if I tried to answer the question today 21 Q. Do you have any opinion -- Well let me strike 22 that and start again 23 Do you have any evidence that any entity that 24 manufactured soap or produced in any way containing 25 products at any time or in any way attempted to alter delay C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 58 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 suppress or otherwise have an impact on the development of or publication of medical and scientific literature relating to asbestos That just goes for a yes or no A. Do I have information to the effect that asbestos manufacturers did that Q. Not information mine is evidence If evidence and information are synonymous do you -- A. I have what I consider evidence of that yes Q. Did you bring that with you today A. No that has been the subject of about 60 other depositions and the subject of a book and as well as 85 -- well not trial testimonies but a number of trial testimonies in which corporate knowledge was covered Q. I understand that And as you understand and know from our previous depositions I frequently ask questions that I have not thought of to ask before and the way that I do that is to look at what you contend is evidence and see if there are additional questions that I may wish to ask Or if looking at the evidence that I have and the questions that I have previously asked deem that it's appropriate to ask a question in a different way bearing in mind that particular information or evidence that you have and ask that question So my question remains although you may feel that you have addressed this issue adequately I personally do not and so I ask again if you have brought that material with you C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 59 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. No I have not Q. Is it available in your office or your home A. Most of it is yes from various files numerous files It's all been produced before in prior depositions that I've given including depositions for you I believe Q. I cannot recall my last deposition of you in this area but as I recall it we went for two days we did not complete the deposition it was adjourned the cases were resolved the deposition was never completed and it has been several years since then if you had anything new And I was hoping to update it to see A. That was 1986 I remember the occasion well I produced boxes and boxes of documents for you at the time Q. Do you also recall that the deposition was adjourned and not completed A. Well I mean I consider that a formality not being a lawyer Q. We lawyers consider it more than that A. I understand that It's like if I were the witness and I were able to ask you at the end of any deposition that I have ever been involved in if I were able to ask the defense lawyers Are you satisfied now I am sure the answer would be no So in that sense it's a continuing exercise And when someone deposes me for two days -- MR CROSBY Mr. Hays do you want to break C.S.RC.. S.R. ASSOCIATES 50 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR HAYS Yes lunch break now Did you want to take a THE WITNESS Let me just finish what I am saying Q. By Mr. Crosby My question to you was simply Doctor do you recall that that deposition was adjourned adjourned A. All I recall is that it lasted two days and I produced an enormous amount of information I don't recall the details of whether I signed the deposition or whether it was considered adjourned or still left open Q. Do you recall that we had not gone through all of the various boxes and documents that you produced A. At the time I believe we did I don't recall I mean maybe we went through part of it and not all of it Q. Do you still have those materials in the same files and in the same position so that you can obtain them and bring them here tomorrow so that we can continue where we left off A. I have no idea what I produced then I understood this was a deposition related to the history and knowledge about the hazards of talc I would like to -- Q. Let me see if that is your understanding and if it is we may be able to shorten this matter Is it your understanding that you will not be providing testimony in this case relating to the development of scientific and medical knowledge relating to health aspects of asbestos CSP CSP CSP 19000TAMDa 61 61 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. No. It's just that asbestos has been covered at nauseam in prior depositions and trials Talc is a new issue It is even in my opinion a legitimate area for a discovery deposition to be held I think that on the basis of the fact that there have been so many depositions and so on over asbestos that the people who want to ask about talc should be given priority and then if you want me to rent a trailer and bring all my files in here about asbestos and talk about that all over again we can deal with that later Mr. Crosby Q. Well I would request that if it's necessary for you to rent a trailer to bring the materials relating to asbestos that you do so A. Oh I am sure you would Q. And I would also ask you to bring those materials that were requested with the subpoena and the request for production attached thereto which relates to all documents that you have reviewed or prepared and upon which you rely in support of any opinions or conclusions which you have now or will testify to at the time of trial concerning development of scientific knowledge relating to the alleged hazards of asbestos talc soapstone and clay MR HAYS We have objected to that You have a copy of our objection MR CROSBY I am aware I was served with a copy of your objection this morning C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 62 MR HAYS Mr. Hinkle was also served earlier MR CROSBY It's an exhibit it speaks for itself The witness has stated that he did not file any objection So I renew that request and ask you or remind you that you should comply with that request and that I will in light of the fact that you don't have it here now we're about to adjourn for lunch you can bring it back with you after lunch If that's not sufficient time you can bring it with you tomorrow morning MR HAYS What did you do with the boxes of stuff you got earlier Did you ever ship that back to him MR CROSBY it Counsel He insisted on maintaining custody of MR HAYS Who the attorney MR CROSBY I don't know Maybe Lisa Blue did She was there for the plaintiffs THE WITNESS You mean to tell me you don't have copies of the stuff I gave you in '86 MR CROSBY I think that we have some portions of those documents but I don't think that we have all of those documents THE WITNESS It's not my fault MR HAYS Were they copied MR CROSBY If you recall you were reluctant C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 53 to let them out of your custody and some of them were unable to be copied THE WITNESS I was willing to let them all be copied as I recall I didn't have any objection to producing them Q. By Mr. Crosby In any event the issue is an opportunity to ask you questions about what some of the documents say and what your opinions are from them If I can get them here another way I will do it If you have them here 10 and have the originals plus the fact that I don't know if you 11 have something in addition to what we had in 1986 12 A. Well I think that would be easier to cover if you 13 just wanted to go company by company and say What is new 14 since 1986 I could at least attempt to give you answers to a 15 question like that I mean everything that is known up to 16 1986 almost everything of significance in this litigation is 17 recorded in my book and it's also a matter of discussion and 18 production that took place as of around the time that you 19 deposed me in 1986. There hasn't been a whole lot of research 20 or new material discovered relating to corporate knowledge on 21 asbestos or published literature on asbestos disease 22 historically speaking since 1986 23 I would be happy to try and answer questions of that 24 nature which would accomplish I think the same objective for 25 you as a more burdensome approach of asking me to bring C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 54 everything that I've got in my house that has got the word asbestos written on it Q. Doctor I understand that you may not appreciate the obligation that I have as an attorney to represent my client A. I appreciate that that obligation is sometimes invoked in cases where it gets stretched beyond its legitimation too Q. Are you able to testify here under oath today all 10 matters upon you which you base your opinion or positions with 11 respect to what efforts were attempted or that took place with 12 respect to what you contend resulted in an alteration delay 13 suppression or otherwise impact on the development of or 14 publication of medical and scientific literature relating to 15 asbestos 16 A. I can certainly take a crack at it And basically 17 I would be relying on my own book as a source of information 18 which is neatly arranged in Chapter 9 and appendix four of the 19 second printing of the second edition which has been available 20 for well over a year now 21 But if you want me to go through that exercise and 22 basically tell you what is in my book about corporate knowledge 23 and particular manipulations of scientific literature and so 24 forth we can take the time to do it I am just saying that I 25 would rather deal with issues related to talc first because if C.S.R. ASSOCIATES we start talking about asbestos in the manner that you seem to be laying out there is no end in sight in terms of the time it could potentially take to go over all this old ground I think the people who have an interest in talc have a And so legitimate priority to ask their questions first As you were asking before about talc those questions are the kindosf questions that I think should come first And if we want to talk about asbestos all the rest of it we can do that later 10 Q. I understand your preferences but I am here to 11 ask those questions among -- I mean certain questions among 12 those questions are questions relating to opinions or matters 13 that you contend relate to asbestos since you are proffered as 14 an expert in that area and you have volunteered to do so So 15 would ask that you produce those documents tomorrow 16 I will make an effort to obtain from my office copies of 17 what I can from prior depositions and we will proceed with 18 areas of inquiry along those lines when the documents have 19 arrived If you prefer we can adjourn to -- where is your 20 office 21 A. My office is in my home and I prefer that we do 22 not adjourn to my office 23 Q. Will you bring the materials -- can you bring them 24 after lunch 25 A. No. I mean it would extend the time taken for C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 56 lunch and reduce the time available for the deposition I would rather bring them tomorrow if necessary and perhaps you can communicate to the court and find out whether it's necessary MR HAYS If you would like for me to do so will And are you adopting that portion of the subpoena that objects to an over broad request for production THE WITNESS Sure 10 MR CROSBY We object to the attempted adoption 11 MR HAYS It's timely You just served the 12 subpoena a few days ago Do you know when you served 13 that subpoena Since you're relying on it I'm sure you 14 do Do you know when that subpoena was served Counsel 15 MR CROSBY I will ask the witness 16 Q. By Mr. Crosby When were you served 17 A. Either Friday or Monday No hold it I suppose 18 it was Friday 19 Q. What efforts if any did you take to comply with 20 the subpoena other than the collection of the materials that 21 have been marked as exhibits to this deposition 22 A. That was all I had time for 23 Q. Those materials weren't in one place 24 MR HAYS Most of them are in the book you 25 have got sitting over there in front of you C.S.R. ASSOCIATES Counselor MR CROSBY Well let's ask that Q. By Mr. Crosby Sir how many of those articles referred to that have been attached -- MR HAYS We're talking about asbestos articles the box that you had in your office He's also referred to a book MR CROSBY It's not in my office Counselor MR HAYS You don't have those documents in your 10 office 11 MR CROSBY I do not believe that I do 12 I said I'm going to check and whatever I do have 13 I will have sent My recollection is that that 14 deposition is among other things we've got copies of 15 his second edition hot off the press which I have paid 16 for and Ms. Blue took her copy and I have yet to be 17 compensated for that 18 Q. By Mr. Crosby So what I am trying to find out 19 is of the exhibits marked here through 75 how many of them are 20 referenced in your book 21 A. These talc articles contain only a few which are 22 referenced in my book Those articles tend to be of the 23 general nature on the subject of pneumoconiosis or they are 24 textbooks on occupational diseases which are referenced in my 25 book So I would say maybe 10 of these articles maybe 15 at C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 68 the most are referenced in the book of asbestos because they also cover asbestos as well as talc 0 Of the exhibits that we have attached to this deposition being No. 11 or 12 through 75 which are references or articles weren't those all collected in one place prior to this deposition A. The talc articles A. No. I mean before I got involved in this 10 litigation I didn't do this kind of a historical review of 11 literature on talc I was familiar with the fact that talc 12 literature went way back 13 Q. Excuse me Doctor Let me see if I can rephrase 14 my question in more artful manner Are those articles that 15 number through 75 as exhibits are those the ones that were 16 accumulated by Mr. Edholm 17 A. Some of them are some of them are articles that I 18 had in my possession either because an interest prior interest 19 in talc or because of my interest in asbestos 20 Q. Did you keep those talc articles in a single place 22 as they accumulated 22 A. Yes You mean the ones that I had from years 23 before 24 Q. Yes sir 25 A. Yes C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 59 Q. Did you then gather the ones that Mr. Edholm gave you and put them with them A. Yes Q. So when you were served with a subpoena you had a single file that contained those articles correct A. The talc articles yes And that is what you have got Q. What else did it take you the rest of the time since being served with a subpoena until now to gather up to be 10 prepared 11 A. Just one other thing I had to do 12 Q. What's that 13 A. Read the articles 14 Q. So prior to the subpoena you had not reviewed the 15 articles 16 A. I had gathered the articles but I had not had 17 time to sit down in a methodical way and read them all 18 Q. So prior to receipt of the deposition notice and 19 subpoena had you favored the attorneys for the plaintiffs and 20 these or any rubber and tire worker cases with your opinions 21 concerning the development of the state of the knowledge or 22 excuse me development of the knowledge relating to health 23 aspects of talc soapstone and clay 24 A. No. I think I understand your question I have 25 never ventured such opinions and I haven't really done the C.S.R. C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 02 literature review on the basis of which such opinions could be safely ventured Q. And at what point did you reveal to counsel for the plaintiffs your opinions concerning development of knowledge on talc soapstone and clay A. Last night to the extent that I have some opinions on that MR CROSBY How long do you want to take for lunch Mr. Hays 10 MR HAYS How long do you want Doctor 11 THE WITNESS Three quarters of an hour ought to 12 do it 13 MR HAYS Let's just make it an hour 14 MR CROSBY Is an hour all right for lunch 15 everybody 16 THE WITNESS 2:00 17 MR CROSBY Just so we will know we are 18 going to do what we can to accommodate your schedule 19 concerning the conference that you wish to attend in 20 Washington There has been an objection filed to 21 these proceedings today going beyond 5:00 I don't 22 know if that objection was filed at your request or not 23 We have also subpoenaed this deposition to go from 24 day until concluded We will accommodate you 45 where we can but we have information that we need to C.S.R. ASSOCIATES know and need to discover If you can think about whether you can go beyond 5:00 and consult Mr. Hays in that matter we would appreciate it We would also if we are able to adjourn tomorrow at 1:00 we would ask that you review your schedule of events to see if you can be here on Friday so that we may go forward if necessary THE WITNESS Okay MR HAYS Off the record 10 Whereupon a lunch break was taken 11 MR HAYS Back on the record now 12 MR CROSBY Yes 13 MR HAYS Did you make a decision about what you 14 wanted to do 15 MR CROSBY Yes I am going to try to put it 16 in here right now so that we can hopefully move forward 17 I am going to mark as Exhibit 80 the list of what 18 appears to be articles or references that were produced 19 to me a minute ago by you and the witness pertaining to 20 apparently articles dealing with asbestos exposure And 21 on the back of the last page of No. 80 are four articles 22 numbered 346 347 348 and 349 which are marked as 23 Exhibits 76 77 78 and 79 to this deposition 24 It's also my further understanding that the 25 documents or the articles referred to in Exhibit No. 80 C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 72 which is the Plaintiff's Exhibit Index are matters or materials that are available here in Baltimore at an attorney's office and were anticipated to be used in the other deposition or videotape deposition that was canceled this morning that was to precede this deposition And that in addition to those exhibits there are documents and things that relate to called knowledge close quote of particular persons or entities 10 My understanding is that if requested the articles 11 listed in Exhibit 80 will be provided I have been 12 advised by some of the parties to these proceedings that 13 have not been involved in these proceedings previously 14 that they would like copies of these articles that are 15 listed on Exhibit 80. And as you have requested or 16 volunteered we would like for him to bring tomorrow 17 the materials that this witness contends relates to 18 entities or individual's knowledge and that he relies 19 upon in forming any opinions with respect to asbestos 20 Now have I got that part of it right 21 MR HAYS For clarification purposes we suggest 22 this That the documents be taken to an entity for 23 copying perhaps Kinko's we're having some copying 24 done today but they not leave the custody of the 25 attorneys who's exhibits they actually are They will C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 73 deliver them to Kinko's you instruct Kinko's what you want to do with them as far as number of copies are concerned insofar as delivery to you and take care of payment for them and then he will pick up the original documents and return them to Sutter's office MR CROSBY That is fine Were on the same thing there we're in agreement there So if you will have that lawyer take them to Kinko's MR HAYS I will call him during the break and 10 ask him to do that Maybe get them over there today 11 What's the address of the Kinko's where you're having 12 your copying done 13 MR RHODES 221 Charles Street 14 MR HAYS Is there someone that can go over 15 there for the defendants and make the arrangements 16 for payment and so forth 17 MR RHODES They are going to be delivering 18 them here Jim probably in the next half hour We 19 can just ask and make arrangements at that time 20 MR CROSBY What about the article 21 references that he relies on with respect to state 22 of the knowledge 23 MR HAYS He will just have to put those _ 24 together tonight and have them here tomorrow I 25 suppose C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 74 THE WITNESS I will bring my traveling corporate files on which I base opinions relating to the corporate defendants in the asbestos litigation MR CROSBY Will those documents be all of the documents upon which you base those opinions THE WITNESS Yes MR CROSBY The entities that are related or involved or have been involved in the past in production of containing products we would ask 10 there be one copy of the articles listed on No. 80 and 11 then we will make other copies for any other people at 12 some other time 13 MR HAYS So my understanding is you are asking 14 for one copy But I am going to ask you to take care 15 of all that I don't want to get involved in the 16 copying 17 MR CROSBY Is there anybody beside an asbestos 18 producer who would like a copy of the articles on 19 Exhibit 80 which are this witnesses bibliography of 20 asbestos publications Is that a fair 21 characterization of it 22 THE WITNESS Let's just say that it's a 23 sufficient bibliography on which I would base any 24 opinions I would give about what was available to 25 manufacturers of containing products who C.S.R. ASSOCIATES troubled themselves to go to a medical library MR CROSBY So does anybody want copies of the articles Or do you just want a copy of the bibliography So just the one copy and I will see it gets to the appropriate people who want them MR HAYS So there will be one copy made MR CROSBY Yes MR HAYS All right 10 THE WITNESS How are we going to handle the 11 traveling corporate files I would like to be sure 12 that they are going to be handled in a careful manner 13 MR CROSBY It's all right with me I don't know 14 how long it will take you to put together the quote 15 traveling corporate files close quote but if you 16 can get together or you're in such a position that you 17 can get them to somebody today in whom you have 18 confidence and have them taken to the same copy place 19 and have those copies made so that we will have your 20 file back to you and copies here at the same time to 21 make sure they match up it's suitable to start that 22 this afternoon or if the process will have to start in 23 the morning it will have to start in the morning 24 THE WITNESS If we go until 5:00 today it will 25 have to start in the morning I have got someone from C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 76 out of the country coming and spending the evening with me today and I am not going to have time after about 6:00 to do any of this stuff If we knock off at 5:00 I can probably get the files together and bring them in tomorrow As far as copying the stuff Mr. Crosby none of this stuff is going to be new to you So don't think it should take you very long to question me about them MR CROSBY As you know sir I often have 10 objections as to your areas of expertise and one of 11 them is not only that you may know what I know but 12 your ability to know what a piece of paper meant when 13 somebody wrote it that's now dead So I will have 14 to see the documents to see if there is something I've 15 seen there before and if upon reading it it prompts a 16 question I haven't thought of before 17 THE WITNESS Ready to talk talc 18 MR CROSBY Well I have been requested that I 19 proceed with respect to the articles that we are waiting 20 to get back from the copy place which will involve 21 talking as you say talking talc The parties here 22 have asked that we proceed in that manner That is sort 23 of how we had it outlined and I don't know how long it 24 will take for them to get back 25 Does anybody have an estimate as to how long it will fm ea D ACCOCTAINa take to get them back MR RHODES Approximately 3:30 a MR CROSBY So that is 40 minutes approximately If you want we can take a break now so you can call that lawyer and he can get things over to that copy shop That is one of the things I think we probably need to get underway MR HAYS I don't have a problem with that THE WITNESS We can also mark some more 10 documents if you like That is always a great way to 11 spend time These are in chronological order 12 MR CROSBY Number 81 will be a copy entitled 13 Effects of Certain Silicate Dust on the Lungs 14 appearing in the Journal of Industrial of Medicine -- 15 it just says the Journal of Industrial Hygiene I am 16 sorry volume C Roman Numeral 15 17 THE WITNESS Got an author 18 MR CROSBY Dreessen e Appears 19 to be an author 20 Number 82 is from the British Medical Journal 21 Volume Roman Numeral I 1948. There's an article 22 inside there are two One's entitled Dangerous Talc 23 THE WITNESS That is the only one 24 MR CROSBY Number 83 is British Journal of 25 Industrial Medicine Volume 12 1955 entitled Talcosis C.S.R. C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES of Unusually Rapid Development by A -- and - v ia t And then Number 84 is Industrial Hygiene Review Volume 4 May 1961 No. 1 Division of Industrial Hygiene Department of Labor State of New York Article appears to be entitled Problem Areas in Pneumoconiosis Authors appear to be Morris Kleinfeld e and Jack Messite - And since Mr. Hays has withdrawn apparently to 10 call the other attorney I suppose we will defer 11 the questioning until his return At least that is 12 the practice where I am from 13 Whereupon a short recess was taken 14 Q. By Mr. Crosby Number 81 let me show this to 15 you please and would you tell me is this one of the articles 16 that you asked the attorney to retrieve 17 A. Yes it is 18 Q. Did he bring the list by the way with him 19 A. Yes he did 20 Q. Do you have that with you 21 A. Yes I do 22 2 Yes that is the one I noticed this morning 23 A. It's kind of a mess Written on the back of a 24 piece of scrap paper 25 Q. Let me -- C.S.R. ASSOCIATES A. The thing is I would like to get it back so I can try and retrieve the ones I haven't gotten yet MR HAYS Can we have someone run a copy of that so we could have that today MR CROSBY Sure MR HAYS We have got a copy service here in the motel MR CROSBY We will mark that as Exhibit No. 85 Q. By Mr. Crosby Would you tell tell us what No. 10 85 is please 11 MR HAYS By the way there is certain material 12 on the back of this that is marked out that is not 13 pertaining to this litigation Let's take a look and 14 see what that says 15 THE WITNESS It says something about Mr. Crosby 16 Q. By Mr. Crosby I hope you spelled it right 17 A. This is a list of articles that I have not 18 collected as of last evening or at least it was a list that 19 was intended to be the list of articles I still needed to get 20 from the library Some of them I in fact did find last 21 evening and I scratched them out at that time Others I have 22 since obtained and I have scratched them out today And there 23 still looks like about nine or ten articles to go 24 And I also wanted to eventually review the abstracts 25 published in the Journal of Industrial Hygiene and Bulletin of S. ASSOCIATES 80 Hygiene Although the abstracts would simply be secondary references to primary articles which I believe I substantially have or will have with the completion of what is on this list Some of these are here just for color if you will Article in 1896 published in a German journal and it is the first report of Talcosis cited by many subsequent authors so I thought it would be interesting to see it although from the standpoint of notice to subsequent articles starting in the 1930s would seem to be quite ample since many of them appear in 10 the English language anyway and review what Thorel had said 11 Q. Is Thorel one that you've obtained or one you are 12 still trying to obtain 13 A. It's the latter category The ones that are not 14 crossed out are still articles outstanding that I would hope to 15 obtain in the near future 16 Q. Exhibits 81 82 83 and 84 are articles that the 17 attorney obtained for you 18 A. They are articles that the attorney was able to 19 find in the University of Maryland Medical Library and that is 20 so indicated on some of the articles One of these The 21 Department of Labor Report I don't recall being on there but 22 maybe it was 23 Q. Let me give you 85 and you can tell me if it is 24 on there please 25 A. I am at a loss to say how the attorney managed to C.S.R. ASSOCIATES come up with this one It's not on my list of the articles that I wanted to obtain Somehow he found it I really -- I don't know the story there It's just one of many articles by Morris Kleinfeld and his worker Jacqueline Messite on the New York State talc workers Q. Can we assume given your previous glowing reports as to the attributes of the attorney to locate articles that if he was unable to locate certain of those articles as a result of his search and did not bring them back here that they 10 must not be in the library 11 A. No. Unfortunately -- 12 MR HAYS I think we now even have a lowering 13 opinion of the capabilities of lawyers in general for 14 research 15 THE WITNESS This fellow managed to bring back 16 a cover page from the British Journal of Industrial 17 Medicine from 1949. I wanted two articles from 1949 18 and 1950. Stapled to the cover page of the 1949 are the 19 1950 articles The 1949 article is still sitting in the 20 medical library 21 Q. Assuming that it's there 22 A. Assuming that the volume attached to that cover 23 page is in the medical library which would seem to be a safe 24 assumption He also neglected to find an article by Leroy 25 Gardener in a journal described here as JAMA He evidently C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 82 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 didn't understand that I was referring to the Journal of the American Medical Association or simply overlooked it looking down this very sloppy list of articles I am pretty sure that the medical library over there does have JAMA from 1938 on it's shelf and not in storage but I am not positive of that fact But I asked him about that and he didn't really say I looked for it and didn't find it So much for attorneys as research assistants Q. So based on your experience with this one you are willing to categorize us all I take it A. No. I am just a little more circumspect in what I think that people whose skill in life one would think would be the assimilation and compilation of written knowledge that such skills are not often as finely honed as one might expect Q. Do we know which law school he went to MR HAYS Somewhere in the south I don't know I was just responding to your humor sir MR CROSBY You will find that those of us from the south are constantly being barraged and we have become quite calm MR HAYS I won't argue that with you Q. By Mr. Crosby Now then looking at No. 85 the document which is the list that is crossed through that list No. Exhibit 85 is not your initial list is it A. No. This is what is left yet to be looked up and C.S.R. ASSOCIATES possibly applied to the stack of articles that would relate to what was available in terms of published published knowledge on talc hazards Q. And you are going to bring that initial list with you tomorrow along with other materials that we have discussed A. Along with all the other materials - Well I have a specific list and we can go over at the end of the day what I am agreeing to bring tomorrow Q. Could I see No. 80 please It's the index to the 10 articles 11 MR HAYS Have you marked it 12 MR CROSBY I marked it and I think someone's 13 taken it out to copy it Do you have your copy 14 MR HAYS I have got a copy but I don't want 15 it to suffer the same fate 16 MR CROSBY It won't I'm going to keep it right 17 here 18 MR HAYS I don't want it marked either 19 MR CROSBY It won't be marked 20 Q. By Mr. Crosby What I am trying to find out do 21 you recall if your list includes the works by Vigliani in Italy 22 during the late 30s and 40s 23 A. I don't think it does 24 Q. Do you have those works of Vigliani 25 A. I don't think I do I have seen reference to C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 24 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 23 22 23 24 25 Vigliani publishing reports of two fatal cases of asbestosis in 1941. And Vigliani has also written abstracts which appeared in the Bulletin of Hygiene which I cited in my book at least once Q. Have you seen any studies of Vigliani or references to where vigliani opined that a safe concentration of asbestos could be accomplished at approximately 200 fibers per cc A. When was this Q. In the late 30s or the 40s A. I guess you will have to find the article The article may have been in Italian for one thing I have not been able nor have I tried to translate every single article that has been published on the hazards of asbestos especially if the articles related to factory workers of which there are so many published articles on asbestosis in factory workers that usually there wasn't any basis in my mind for expecting to find anything particularly new in such articles I would also question your description of the articles because they weren't doing fiber counts back in 1939 They were doing particle counts and so -- Q. I stand corrected Two hundred particles per cc do you recall reading anything along that line in the Italian literature dealing with threshold limit values for asbestos A. Well that wouldn't surprise me because 170 0 @ Ft 1001 ATIMA 000AT100ATI IMA 1M 000AA TIMA AA 100ATIMA 85 particles per cc is equivalent to five million particles per cubic foot so Vigliani may have adopted that from Dreessen and just sort of rounded it up a little bit as a fitting figure perhaps that Italian workers are more resistant to asbestosis than American workers Q. I understand what your surmise and opinion is My question was Do you recall reading that in the literature A. I do not recall reading that Q. Looking at No. 85 is there any method to that 10 document as to which ones are crossed out as to who obtained 11 them and from what source they were obtained 12 A. No. 13 Q. So when it's crossed out it could have either been 14 obtained by you by going through your library at your office or 15 home or -- well the only other source would be this attorney 16 is that correct 17 A. Or Paul Edholm Because in some cases I had 18 listed an article as something that we needed to get only to 19 find later on that I already had it and then crossed it out 20 So there are some like that on this list too Q. And then on the side opposite the exhibit sticker 22 are there also some articles 23 A. You mean on the reverse side 24 0 Yes sir 25 A. On the reverse side there is reference to CSR CSR CSR ASSOCIATES 86 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 abstracts in the Journal of Industrial Hygiene and yes an article by Bauder the German expert in Berlin on occupational diseases writing in the German Medical Weekly In 1950 a review article on talc according to other references is what that is And also I have made a note that I would like to go through the abstracts of particularly the Journal of Industrial Hygiene and the Bulletin of Hygiene in order to simply you know make sure that I have covered what was easily available in this country and at the same time come up with abstracts in English of articles the originals which may have been perhaps published in other languages and then which were abstracted in the United States or Britain and English within a year or two of their publication date These are sources that were available in this country and therefore relevant Q. Would you recite to us in the record just the ones that you do not have based on that A. The references that I do not have and I am not sure about the first line I have got three references by Kleinfeld and his workers out of the Archives of Environmental Health I think when the documents come back from the copying services we may find that one or two of these are actually already in our possession These are articles published in 1963 1964 and 1965 if that's sufficient The next is an article by McLaughlin in the British C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 37 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Journal of Industrial Medicine in 1949 That is not in the collected group so far although we do have another article by McLaughlin And McLaughlin in this case is reporting on a case of talcosis or talc pneumoconiosis in a tire manufacturing plant worker according to other references that state this so that is certainly one we want to get The next is Gardener in JAMA 1938 I think a general article on pneumoconioses I don't know what it says on talc I have forgotten whatever reference there was to it in the other sources Q. Is this Leroy U. Gardener A. The one and only Dr. Leroy Gardener Next is Thorel's article which we have already discussed the article on talc pneumoconiosis published in the German Journal in 1896 The next one is the article by Feinberg in Archives of Pathology And I believe that the reference I am going to put question mark beside it because I think the reference is wrong The highly educated attorney who went to the library went and got me Volume 24 Page 65 1937 an article that had nothing to do with talc So apparently Feinberg's article was not cited right or not copied right as far as the reference goes and it would take a little bit of poking around through the index or whatever of the Archives of Pathology to get the C.S.R. ASSOCIATES right reference and pull the article The next is an article buy Kipling in a journal called Transaction of the Association of Industrial Medical Officers published in 1960 The next is article by Messite which we may already have Archives of Industrial Health 1959 The next article by Williams this is not in the Medical Journal It's called Talc Dust in the Rubber Industries and it was published in a journal called Safety Engineering in 10 1937. That should be interesting Williams I believe was 11 with Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and did such things as 12 petrographic analysis of silted dust on rafters in asbestos 13 plants in the 1930s 14 The next is Carozzi in a medical weekly published in 15 1941 And I believe I have already talked about what is on the 16 other side of the page 17 Q. Would you spell the last one 18 A. Carozzi 19 Q. Yes 20 A. a 21 Q. And that was 19 what 22 A. 1941 23 Q. The Williams article was 1937 24 A. Right 25 Q. Is that right C.S.R. ASSOCIATES A. Yes Q. And Kipling A. 1960 Q. Looking at No. 81 could you give me the title of that please I am sorry but my list has wandered out A. It's called Effects of Certain Silicate Dust on the Lungs Q. And that was in the Journal of Industrial Hygiene A. Right 10 Q. 1941 11 A. No 1933 Dreessen 12 Q. Does that reference mention any health effects of 13 talc or asbestos or both 14 A. Yes Well it talks about talc 15 Q. Do you recall seeing any reference to asbestos in 16 that particular article 17 A. I don't think the word asbestos is used They 18 talk about a tremolite talc And I have to say I haven't - I 19 got this article and saw it for the first time about an hour 20 ago I haven't really spent that much time looking at it So 21 maybe somewhere in here the word asbestos appears I don't 22 see it 23 Q. Would that be true also with respect to Number 82 _ 24 83 and 84 with respect to how much time you have had to review 25 those C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 20 A. I reviewed 82 a little more carefully I am sure the word -- I am pretty sure the word asbestos doesn't appear there if that is your question Q. And 82 is that the article by -- Mr. Hays is pointing something out to you Excuse me A. Mr. Hays has astutely noted in the first introductory paragraph Dreessen has generally started out about talking about pneumoconiosis asbestosis is Asbestos is not here the word 10 Q. Back to No. 81 since that is what we were just 11 talking about 12 A. Right 13 Q. Is there any -- do your opinions any of the 14 opinions that you express in this case regarding talc or 15 asbestos or soapstone or clay are they based in whole or in 16 part on that article No. 81 17 A. Adjacent parts of that article yes 18 Q. What parts 19 A. Well the part on the article in that the author 20 Dr. Dreessen indicated people who breathe this kind of -- 21 breathe talc dust and this is a tremolite talc in Georgia I 22 believe it was that these people do develop a fine diffuse 23 bilateral fibrosis of the lungs which is definitely 24 demonstrable in the rays It does contain a warning that 25 these people do get this material trapped in their lungs and it C.S.R. ASSOCIATES does produce a fibrosis of the lungs which is demonstrable on ray Q. Does it distinguish between whether the talc or tremolite is fibrous in nature or like A. I don't recall You might find something in here like that It seems to me these earlier articles don't get into that very much I don't think until the 40s did they start talking about fibers possibly because of the work of Leroy Gardener that was coming to light at the end of the 30s 10 and 40s where longer fibers of asbestos were attributed to 11 causing the fibrosis that asbestos caused and people started 12 thinking maybe more in terms of its shape of the particles and 13 not their chemical constituants as the cause of disease 14 Chemically talc and asbestos are very similar So I 15 think at this stage they weren't very focused so much on the 16 shape of the particles as being the key factor in the causation 17 of disease 18 Q. Fiber type or substance type did take an issue 19 did present itself as an issue in that particular study 20 A. I don't know what you mean There is no 21 discussion of fiber type there is no discussion of fibers in 22 terms of as far as I see and maybe there is I mean as I 23 say I haven't looked at this article 24 MR HAYS Would you like to take a minute and 25 look at it for your purposes C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 99 THE WITNESS I hate to delay the deposition H don't think it will serve any purpose for me to sit here for half an hour with each one of these articles and answer questions that aren't central to the issues of whether or not some of these articles constitute form of notice to talc manufacturers that their product might be a problem in terms of breathing it in health terms 2. By Mr. Crosby Sir I understand that you may 10 have formed opinions as to what may be or may not be central or 11 may be crucial in your own mind but we here as attorneys are 12 here to develop what opinions you may have since you are 13 proffered as an expert in this case with respect to the 14 development of knowledge regarding asbestos soapstone talc 15 and kaolin and you may have priority in which you wish to 16 present it However we have priority in which we wish to seek 17 your opinions and what you base them on 18 You have stated you base your opinions in this case in 19 whole or in part upon that article I am attempting to 20 determine from you what part of that opinion of the article 21 that you have in front of you which is No. 81 and what parts 22 of the opinions you have that you rely on If none of your 23 opinions are based upon that article in whole or in part then 24 we can simply move on But if you state they are I would like 25 to make inquiry C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Well there is a long way and a short way of doing everything We will do it whatever way you want to do it because you are asking the questions Q. I like to think there is a right way A. May I finish my answer Q. You may answer A. It's the summary I was reading to you from which appears on Page 78 is the author's summary of their findings Q. Yes sir I notice that it's highlighted Did you do that highlighting or did the attorney that did the research do the highlighting A. That is my mark in the margin Now I believe your question was whether they talked about -- whether the talc was a fibrous talc whether there were fibers in the talc Is that what you wanted to know Q. I believe my question was Was not one of the matters addressed in that fiber type A. I don't know what you mean by that question Q. Is tremolite a type of asbestos fiber A. Yes it can be But that is not as far as I can see discussed in this article Q. You have me at a disadvantage in that you have seen the articles albeit briefly and I have not except to put a sticker on it You say you rely on it therefore I am asking what it says in that respect C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 04 MR HAYS You commented about the mark on the page Obviously you paid some attention to it MR CROSBY I can see it from here Counselor on the last page next to the last paragraph THE WITNESS As far as I can see this article doesn't talk about tremolite in the context that you frame your question namely as a type of asbestos fiber Q. By Mr. Crosby The generic term quote asbestos close quote was not utilized when referring to asbestiform 10 contaminant close quote rather the word tremolite was 11 used 12 A. The word tremolite was used 13 Q. Does that article in your opinion provide any 14 information with respect to health aspects of asbestos 15 A. Well it points out that the importance -- 16 Q. Mr. Hays is pointing 17 A. He doesn't need to point It's the only place in 18 the article asbestos is mentioned 19 MR HAYS That is the part we discussed earlier 20 where it says asbestosis in the 1933 article I think 21 I am referring to the one you are referring to I am 22 pointing it out that you are pointing it out to him 23 THE WITNESS The one place in the article that 24 mentions asbestosis says this is a disease that has 25 recently been recognized So to that extent someone C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 25 could learn about asbestosis by reading this article Q. Referring to No. 82 it's an article by -- A. This is an unsigned editorial in the British Medical Journal called Dangerous Talc Q. editorial Have you since learned the author of that unsigned A. No. It stands as a statement of the editor or editors of the journal British Medical Journal Q. Back up What year was that published 10 A. 1948 11 Q. In 1948 are you aware of documents that state that 12 unsigned editorials appearing in that journal are the opinions 13 of the editorial staff of that journal 14 A. Let me just answer your question this way There 15 are not explicit statements to that effect but that is the way 16 journals work These editorials are not written by carpenters 17 they are published by professionals of the editors of the 18 journal They may not be written by the editor of the journal 19 but if they are unsigned they stand as a statement of the 20 editor because the editor bears the responsibility for having 21 published every word of this thing That is the way it is 22 Q. Is that true with all journals 23 A. That is my understanding of unsigned editorials in 24 British Medical Journals 25 Q. My question to you is Is that the practice of C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 96 all journals A. sir I don't know what the practice of all journals is Q. Was it the practice of all scientific and medical journals at that time A. I think it's safe to assume that it was but it's also possible that there is some kind of exception of some sort I can't imagine what the exception would be though The editor's bear responsibility of what they publish If they 10 publish it without anyone's name on it as an editorial it's 11 their statement 12 Q. What tangible evidence do you have that unsigned 13 editorials appearing in published medical and scientific 14 journals during the 1930s 40s and 50s and 60s were the 15 official position of the editors 16 A. I have only the -- the only actual proof in that 17 sense is my discussion with Dr. Hueper who was invited to write 18 editorials for a number of journals He said if he published 19 an editorial in a journal as for example in 1955 in the 20 American Journal of Clinical Pathology and the editorial 21 carried his name that he could make statements which were his 22 own opinions and were as fully strong as his opinions were If 23 he wrote an editorial for the say Journal of American Medical 24 Association was the example he gave and it was to be an 25 unsigned editorial he had to write a slightly more C.S.R. ASSOCIATES conservative appraisal than he would have written in this own name because it was written as an editorial for the editor of the journal and would be presumed to be a statement of the editor Q. So are you saying then that Dr. Hueper's opinions were altered or manipulated by editors of these journals when they caused him to be more conservative A. I am only saying Dr. Hueper's expression was a little more tempered in cases where he was writing for the 10 editor of the journal as oppose to writing in his own name In 11 other words at a certain point the information becomes a 12 matter of opinion and the opinions that he would give would be 13 a little less far reaching not appreciably different but 14 slightly different 15 Q. Do I take it that the tempering of one's opinion 16 with respect to medical and scientific matters is an acceptable 17 practice when it comes to presenting unsigned editorials 18 A. I think that when it comes to matters of style 19 this can be done without compromising one's integrity and I 20 certainly believe that is what Dr. Hueper was able to do 21 Q. Where could we talk with Dr. Hueper and see if 22 your recollection of your discussion is correct 23 A. I am afraid Dr. Hueper died in December of 1978 24 And like you I have many questions that I have that I regret I 25 am unable to ask him now C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 98 Q. Did you make any notes or have any recordings of your discussions with Dr. Hueper A. I don't think I retained any such documents Q. Are you saying -- did you make notes at the time MR HAYS You just asked him a question He's trying to respond Q. have notes By Mr. Crosby My question was simply Does he A. I may have made notes of one of my discussions 10 back at the time I was visiting with him 11 Q. Do you still have those notes 12 A. I have no idea 13 2 Do you know where you would be able to find them 14 if you retained them 15 A. No. I would just have to ransack my files 16 Q. You may have some evidence that could enlighten us 17 in this matter but you don't know where it is 18 A. I don't need to go through my files Dr. Hueper's 19 bibliography is on file at the National Library of Medicine 20 History of Medicine section and includes a number of 21 editorials which were unsigned editorials that appeared in the 22 Journal of the American Medical Association 23 Q. Does it provide us with the drafts or his versions 24 as he would have written it had it not been unsigned 25 A. I don't think there were any such drafts I mean C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 99 he wrote it for certain audiences with a certain understanding I suppose I don't know what sort of iteration these things went through I gather he didn't have any problem with the editor or he wouldn't have invited him to write articles in the first place Q. Is that gleaned with your conversation with Dr. Hueper Or is that an assumption you are making A. It's based on Dr. Hueper's discussion with me where he said up until the Journal of the American Medical 10 Association was changed he was given a number of opportunities 11 to write such articles and after changing editorship he was no 12 longer called upon to do so 13 Q. What if anything does that indicate to you 14 A. Dr. Hueper thought it indicated that second editor 15 was substantially less concerned about occupational 16 environmental cancer than the one that he replaced whose name 17 I am trying to recall Morris something or another 18 Anyway this guy had been the editor of JAMA and retired 19 in 1950 and was replaced by someone else named Austin Smith 20 and Dr. Smith never contacted Dr. Hueper to write any articles 21 Q. Do you have any tangible evidence other than your 22 recollection of Dr. Hueper regarding why he was not contacted 23 A. No. 24 Q. Do you have any information or evidence with 25 respect to why Dr. Hueper was not contacted C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 100 A. Only the information that I have the information from my discussions with Dr. Hueper which I have related to you Q. If Dr. Hueper was not contacted he doesn't know why they didn't contact him either does he A. My conversations with Dr. Hueper were not as elaborate as your questions to me so I can't answer Q. Hendryx With respect to No. 82 is this an article by 10 A. 82 is the one we just -- 11 Q. That is the unsigned one 12 A. Yes What about Hendryx 13 Q. Do you rely on this article No. 82 in whole or 14 in part in forming any of your opinions with respect to 15 asbestos talc soapstone or clay 16 A. Yes 17 Q. Could you tell me please what it is in there 18 that you rely upon and what it tells you 19 A. What this tells you first it's entitled 20 Dangerous Talc published in one of the most prominent medical 21 journals in the English language in the world and indicates 22 that getting talc in your body can cause adverse affects 23 Q. Does it discuss what type of talc if it's babies 24 powder talc Contaminated Uncontaminated Does it give you 25 anything other than that or is just the word talc used C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 101 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Just the word talc Q. Does it's in any way relate to tire workers or rubber workers A. workers No it doesn't discuss tire workers or rubber MR HAYS Let me ask you something about that last question Do you mean dangerous talc or talc does not apply to rubber workers Or that particular article does not name or name tire workers THE WITNESS This particular article MR HAYS I was referring to Counsel's question because we're certainly not saying talc is not dangerous to tire workers THE WITNESS We're saying the article doesn't say anything about tire workers this particular article doesn't make reference to tire workers Q. By Mr. Crosby From that article do you form any opinions with respect to the talc utilized at the Miami Oklahoma plant as opposed to the talc referred to in that article and circumstances underwhich it was used A. I only infer that this is one more statement in a prominent place in the medical literature which very clearly indicates that talc is dangerous to get in your body Q. Based on that if I am understanding you right all talc under all situations is dangerous C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 102 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Well not necessarily But the article raises the question that must be presumed that there isn't anything in here to exculpate any kind of talc from the assertion made This doesn't say the only type of talc that we consider dangerous is type A and if you have type B don't worry It doesn't say that in here It says talc is dangerous It says Dangerous Talc in the title of the article and there is no further elaboration about the kind of people talked about in other places or later years about what about talc might be dangerous Q. Is that one of the shortcomings of that article in your opinion the fact it doesn't discuss different types of talc and situations under which it may be a hazard A. It may be a shortcoming in the sense that the authors don't have complete information about what was dangerous about talc But it's not a shortcoming in the sense that it constitutes a form of notice to people who are in the talc business Q. Was baby powder being used about the time that article was published A. lot before I assume so I understand cornstarch was used a Q. What is the difference between French chalk and talc as used at the Miami Oklahoma plant A. I don't think I can answer that question I think C.S.R. ASSOCIATES that is for Dr. Rohl -- Dr. Langer Is it Dr. Rohl on this case or mil MR HAYS Dr. Rohl THE WITNESS The mineralogist can answer questions about that I haven't made any investigation about mineralogy in the Miami plant Q. By Mr. Crosby Would you agree a mineralogist who was able to review an article as it pertained to their particular product would be in a better position to opine what 10 the article said as to the product 11 A. I think it depends on the specific article and 12 what the article conveys 13 Q. What is No. 83 please sir 14 A. This is a publication of authors in Greece 15 Q. And what year was that 16 A. This was 1955 published in the British Journal of 17 Industrial Medicine 18 Q. Before you go on to it can you tell me if you 19 relied on that article in whole or in part in forming your 20 opinions in this case relating to asbestos 21 A. Yes I do 22 Q. What part of that article do you rely upon in 23 whole or in part with respect to asbestos 24 A. Well there is a paragraph on Page 48 which says 25 More recent research has shown there is such a clinical entity C.S.R. ASSOCIATES as talcosis Our observations confirm reference Gardener in '39 Policard in more '40 recent work-- the Parmeggiani in '48 and some other authors who look like Scandinavians in '49 McLaughlin in '49 Baader in 1950 and the sentence continues --and encourages us to accept the fact that talc can produce fibrotic pneumoconiosis with functional disturbances They also have a summary on Page 49 Our analysis of function pulmonary studies are indicative generally of several degrees of impaired pulmonary function The results of the 10 analysis of these findings suggest that ventilatory as well 11 alveolar respiratory insufficiency was present It's possible 12 that the fibrotic changes found in talcosis produce changes in 13 alveolar aeration and perfusion It's evident that this is an 14 important factor in the production of pulmonary insufficiency 15 And they go on to have a short summary mentioned they have seen 16 eight cases of talcosis in mill workers developing after and 17 unusually short exposure to talc 18 Q. Have you completed your answer 19 A. Yes 20 Q. Now I move to strike My question was Doctor -- 21 MR HAYS You asked him what part of that article 22 in whole or in part do you rely upon and he responded 23 MR CROSBY With respect to asbestos and I said 24 what part do you rely on with respect to asbestos 25 MR HAYS I didn't hear it C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 4+. MR CROSBY back Let's have the court reporter read it MR HAYS You changed your question because ordinarily you say asbestos talc soapstone clay or kaolin Maybe you are reading the paper and not reading your questions MR CROSBY Let me respond to that I am not reading any paper it's just that maybe you're just dozing 10 MR HAYS It's because you are pausing so long 11 between your questions you are wasting the day with 12 your long pauses and putting us all to sleep 13 MR CROSBY This is a scientific area Counsel 14 and it takes me a while to frame my questions and listen 15 to responses and determine what next question I should 16 ask and the manner in which I should ask it and this 17 witness has told us countless times that he has been 18 deposed and therefore I assume that he listens to the 19 questions 20 THE WITNESS I answered it in that context 21 There is nothing in here about asbestos 22 Q. By Mr. Crosby The question was about asbestos 223 A. The word asbestos as far as I see doesn't ; 24 appear in the article This is about talcosis 25 Q. Doctor turning now to No. 84. Would you tell us C.S.R. ASSOCIATES what that deals with And I hope that you understand Doctor that I don't have the articles before me I don't know what you're going to say and I don't know what they say so it does take me a while to listen to what you say and frame my next question So if you'll please tell me what the name of that article is A. Problem Areas in Pneumoconiosis Q. Do you base any of your opinions in this case in whole or in part upon that article 10 A. Yes insofar as the article refers to talc 11 2. Do you base any of your opinions relating to 12 asbestos on that article 13 A. I don't think so It's peripheral at best to the 14 literature on asbestos disease 15 Q. Does it provide you any information relating to 16 asbestos that you did not have prior to having seen that 17 article 18 A. I don't think so but I am familiar with the work 19 of Kleinfeld and his workers and I have reviewed some of 20 these articles before I obtained this one I mean there may be 21 some reference to asbestos but basically it's an article on 22 other kinds of pneumoconiosis and I found the part about talc 23 especially pertinent to this case 24 Q. I understand what you may have found pertinent 25 but my question is and my chore here is in part to determine if C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 107 107 107 anything in that article affects any of your opinions in whole or in part relating to asbestos A. No. Q. All right sir Now with respect to talc soapstone or clay what is there in that article in your opinion that imparts knowledge respecting health aspects of any or all of those substances A. No response Q. Doctor I do not mean to rush you but if you need 10 to take a break for you to review that article I am certainly 11 happy to do that I understand that it takes a while to read 12 these materials and perhaps comprehend them so if you need to 13 take a break feel free to let us know that and we can break 14 for a few minutes 15 A. No I found the part on talc It starts on Page 16 5 talks about Talc dust in different mills and indicates 17 that in the plant where the worker's exposure was to fibrous 18 rather than the granular variety of talc is significantly 19 higher Incidence of dyspnea productive cough and chest pain 20 occurred Similarly the chest ray the ray findings of the 21 chest were more abnormal in this group 22 And I am going to mark that if you don't mind I am 23 sure you won't 24 Q. I don't mind it being marked for purposes of the 25 deposition We will object to any markings or lineations if at C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 108 108 time of trial the testimony or evidence is permitted A. Anyway so this is a further elaboration on the kinds of information that is coming to the floor on talc as of 1961 particularly in the state of New York where they had an asbestiform talc mining area under study Q. In that article does it discuss whether or not the quote talc close quote is quote contaminated close quote And if so with what A. Well they talk about asbestiform or fibrous talc 10 so I think we can conclude -- well let's just take another 11 look 12 Q. Again Doctor you can certainly take your time 13 If it would be better for us to take a break feel free to do 14 that 15 A. I really rather use the time as effectively as 16 possible because there is a limited amount of my time that I 17 can make available for this proceeding That is why I chose 18 not to ask for breaks anymore than necessary 19 Q. Counsel complained about the time taken up for 20 asking questions and I just wanted you to know that we would 21 extend the courtesy to let you know we would let you take the 22 time to answer them 23 A. I appreciate your courtesy I don't believe I can 24 add much to what it says They say there is less serious lung 25 disease in the workers that they have looked at handling C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 109 fibrous talc than in workers that they have looked at handling a fibrous talc A. More serious disease in the fibrous talc workers Q. So does that article discuss whether or not there are contaminants and if there are what they are A. it -- I don't think they go into it They just refer to MR HAYS Could I ask you what you mean by 10 contaminants 11 MR CROSBY Let me ask the Doctor since he used 12 that word earlier 13 Q. By Mr. Crosby Doctor what do you mean when you 14 refer to talc or quote talc close quote that is 15 contaminated 16 A. Well talcs have various types of mixtures Pure 17 talc dust the mineral called talc is a very unusual thing 18 The industrial grade talcs commonly contain such things as 19 silica and tremolite The article by Schultz and Williams in 20 1942 is indicative of the range of minerals that are found in 21 industrial talcs whether you want to call them contaminants or 22 not they are there 23 Q. I don't mind I am just trying to find out if 24 that word is a word you are comfortable with If that is what 25 it indicates to you I will certainly use that word C.S.R. ASSOCIATES A. I am not totally comfortable with it but it's a word you can use They are not contaminants in the sense that they were inadvertently added They were there to begin with They were part of the mineral that was being dug out of the ground by some company or another Q. So would you prefer using the term pure talc versus non pure talc A. I suppose more precise I suppose that might be a little bit 10 Q. And then is asbestiform talc in your opinion 11 opinion the same thing as a talc that contains asbestos as a 12 contaminant that occurs naturally 13 A. That is my understanding yes 14 Q. All right sir 15 A. That is what I think it is although the real 16 experts on that would be the mineralogists 17 Q. If your understanding as to what an asbestiform 18 talc is is incorrect would it alter your opinions with respect 19 to talc in any way 20 A. Depends how it was incorrect and in what manner 21 Q. Have you done any type of research to determine 22 what is meant by asbestiform talc 23 A. I have read what appears in the literature on 24 talcosis I hasn't gone to the extent of reading a great deal 25 of literature which is of a mineralogic and geologic nature CSR CSR CSR ASSOCIATES 111 111 111 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 although such literature is available What is not available is time to go and do every single thing that might answer every single question that I could conceivably be asked Q. With respect to Nos 82 83 and 84 is there any information relating to the exposure levels of the workers who -- and the opinion of the authors who have contracted what you relate to me as talc associated conditions or diseases A. I don't see any dust counts Here there is 83 Q. Would you help me with what the title is A. The article by the Greek authors in the British Journal of Industrial Medicine in 1955 does have air sampling data units of talc particles per liter of air 82 doesn't have quantitative information on exposure 34 I don't believe contains such information Q. Do any of those articles deal specifically with individual's exposed to pure or pure talc in a tire worker or rubber worker situation A. not No none of these three 83 or 82 83 and 84 do Q. What about 81 I have got it I am sorry It was in front of me A. workers 81 doesn't either These are mine and mill Q. What were the exposure levels in No. 83 A. They were in unusual units that would require some C.S.R. ASSOCIATES conversion to get them into million particles per cubic foot They are given as talc particles per one thousand milliliters of air per liter of air The information is on Table 3 There are a lot of numbers here Q. Were these measurements of talc ~~ I know it says talc particles but can you tell from reading this article if it was actually talc particles or was it total particles and all attributed to being talc A. I don't think I can tell from reading the article 10 which they mean 11 Q. From looking at Table 3 are these ranges is that 12 how you interpret it 13 A. Let me see it I read this as a separate 14 measurement not ranges 15 Q. Two separate measurements 16 A. Well some cases two some cases three some cases 17 four If you will look at it more closely I think you will 18 agree 19 Q. And to convert this to talc particles per cc one 20 would just divide by a thousand 21 A. Well yes No hold it Right And then divide 22 by another 170 particles per cc is five million particles per 23 cubic foot 24 MR HAYS Counsel am I to assume you're assuming 25 lead for the talc people as well as abestos at this C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 113 113 113 point MR CROSBY No. I am just asking questions about these particular articles I am not assuming lead for anybody MR HAYS We're producing the asbestos articles tomorrow MR CROSBY I know but I don't want to go back through the same articles twice I didn't think you did so when I cover an article I try to cover it 10 fairly completely so that we don't have to do it twice 11 If I go through it now and ask him the title and 12 everything about it and ask about asbestos and he says 13 nothing go back all through it again tomorrow on talc 14 I am certainly willing to do it that way I don't know 15 am just trying to do it -- 16 MR HAYS We might be able to shorten this 17 Let's take a break for a second and I'll ask him about 18 these articles we might be able to give you an answer 19 and you just won't have to ask any more questions from 20 your standpoint 21 MR CROSBY All right sir 22 Whereupon a short recess was taken 23 MR HAYS Back on the record We took a break _ 24 to see if we could expedite the deposition And I 25 have spoken with Dr. Castleman He has agreed that C.S.R. ASSOCIATES Le we will not rely-- his opinion will not be based upon any of the articles that are identified as the quote unquote talc articles which comprise Exhibits 11 through 75 and four additional articles that were provided after lunch which were 81 through -- MR CROSBY 84 is MR HAYS Where is the other article There it THE WITNESS Let me complete your representation 10 No opinions that I have on the hazards of asbestos 11 will be based on any of the called talc articles 12 except insofar as such articles also appear on the list 13 of asbestos articles numbered 1 through about 349 on a 14 separate list which has been marked as an exhibit 15 I think that will take care of it 16 Q. By Mr. Crosby All right sir Do you have a 17 separate list of all of the called talc articles that we can 18 look at so we can compare the talc list with the asbestos list 19 and see where there is a duplication 20 A. No. 21 Q. Are you able to go through No. 80 do you think 22 and let us know 23 A. I will do it during the deposition tomorrow with 24 when the documents get back here or I will do it during the 25 deposition if the documents get back here between now and 5:00 C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 15 15 15 15 I am going home at 5:00 or you can do it yourself MR HAYS That's a good idea THE WITNESS You will have plenty of time eventually before trial or four I think There are only about three Q. By Mr. Crosby I understand we may have plenty of time before trial But one of the purposes for this notice and subpoena and gathering is to find out what your opinions are and what you base it on 10 MR HAYS Well Counselor since you are going 11 through all those articles tomorrow when you happen 12 upon those articles then it will be -- 13 MR CROSBY I am just trying to find out if there 14 is a shortcut Mr Hays If there's not there's 15 not 16 MR HAYS You are going to go through all those 17 articles tomorrow anyway so what difference does it 18 make 19 MR CROSBY Like I say I don't mind doing it 20 the right way 21 MR HAYS Me neither 22 Q. By Mr. Crosby Just so I understand it your 23 opinions relating to health aspects of asbestos are not based 24 upon the quote talc articles which are Exhibits No. 11 25 through 75 and 81 through 84 is that correct C.S.R. ASSOCIATES A. Correct except insofar as such articles may also appear on the list of 349 or so which we have also marked as exhibits somewhere Q. Which is exhibit No. 80 MR HAYS In order that we be perfectly clear we're not excluding anything that has to do with talc with asbestos fibers or asbestiform talc That is we're talking about asbestos as distinct from talc with asbestos in it Are we tracking on that 10 MR CROSBY Let me make sure I think we are 11 What you're telling me is that this witness -- 12 MR HAYS May have opinions - 13 MR CROSBY Will not relate to products that 14 were manufactured produced and sold as being products 15 that were promulgated as containing products 16 His opinions with that respect will not rely on 11 17 through 75 and to 84 except duplicates on the list that 18 may contain asbestos in one form or another 19 MR HAYS Correct 20 MR CROSBY If we can agree to do it I will 21 yield the witness to the talc people at this time with 22 the understanding that I can resume with asbestos 23 matters at a later point either when we begin tomorrow 24 or the talc general examination is over If I yield the 25 witness now I do not want to be precluded from asking C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 117 117 117 other questions that I may have about asbestos MR HAYS We will not preclude any further questions by yourself so long as they are not repetitive And we do ask you to consider our offer made off the record which we will make on the record to shorten the deposition by incorporating by reference the depositions that have to do with background and other matters as we agreed to in the Cohen deposition MR CROSBY And like I said I have discussed it 10 with several people here more people have shown up 11 since then we will try to see if we can do something 12 If we can we can 13 Q. By Mr. Crosby Let me ask the witness are 14 you -- have you checked about Friday 15 A. No. 16 Q. Are you aware of any commitments that you have for 17 Friday other than to be here 18 A. I am aware of the fact that work is piling up on 19 my desk 20 Q. We all are suffering from that 21 A. Yes Well I suffer from it differently than you 22 do 23 Q. Maybe not _ 24 A. And I have a limited amount of my time my life's 25 time that I am willing to make available to be questioned about C.S.R. ASSOCIATES anything in deposition this week because I do have other things I have to work on such as the EPA's rule coming out this week and whatever repercussions are going to result from that and other kinds of activities that I'm involved in that don't have anything to do with litigation Q. Let me ask you something about the EPA thing tomorrow As I understand it you are going up there to hear what the announcement is you are not to participate in any offical capacity with respect to that announcement are you 10 A. I intend to participate 11 Q. In an official capacity 12 A. I will be representing the Natural Resources 13 Defense Counsel We have taken a number of positions in papers 14 we have filed with the EPA in the course of this rule making 15 Participated at the hearings and attended the hearings that 16 were held on the proposed rule for a week and I intend to 17 participate in what goes on tomorrow as well 18 Q. I understand what your intentions are I am just 19 trying to get an understanding as to what your role is in the 20 matter tomorrow since it may deal with your qualifications 21 And what I am trying to find out is Is your presence there 22 necessary for the announcement to be made 23 A. My presence isn't necessary for the administration 24 to tell the media what its view of its regulations are 25 Q. All right So your - C.S.R. ASSOCIATES A. But for a more balanced picture to be gotten across and for certain questions to probably be asked of the government people which the government people might not have thought to raise on their own which might raise some critical aspects about their new regulations it probably is essential that I be there and I intend to be Q. Is it essential that you be there as an individual for this group Or is it essential that you be there as someone who's a representative of the government 10 A. As a representative of the Natural Resources 11 Defense Counsel the leading environmental group in the United 12 States that deals with toxic substances and confronts the 13 government time after time over such things as a need to 14 regulate asbestos 15 Q. But this -- What is it National Resources 16 Defense Counsel 17 A. Natural Resources Defense Counsel 18 Q. That is not a government agency or entity is it 19 A. That is right it's not 20 Q. And you do not have any official governmental 21 capacity with respect to the EPA announcement at this time 22 A. That's correct 23 Q. Is the National Resources defense counsel what 24 some folks might call a lobby group 25 A. I suppose it's been called that by people in the C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 120 industry that were criticized by the NRDC But the Natural Resources Defense Counsel is a very highly regarded group in the area of occupational or mainly environmental health Q. I guess it's highly regarded by some and maybe not highly regarded by others A. Well statements that they make and studies that they do are reported by the leading stuffed east coast newpapers as a fact to which to my mind constitutes a very high degree of recognition These people who have been in 10 business a long time Jacqueline Warren with whom I worked on 11 this rule has written more environmental legislation that 12 anybody probably now working for the Environmental Protection 13 Agency 14 David Hawkins with the Natural Resources Defense Counsel 15 under 10 years back was the assistant administrator to the 16 director of the EPA in charge of all air pollution control 17 programs These are the kind of people who work at the NRDC 18 And in the field of environmental protection the Natural 19 Resources Defense Counsel and the Environmental Defense fund 20 have an extremely good reputation for doing solid competent 21 work and not for going over the deep end about things that 22 aren't real problems 23 Q. I assume that there is some disagreement with 24 respect to your assessment of the organization for which you 25 consult C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 121 121 121 121 A. with that I am sure the producers of Alar would disagree Q. Is that the apple thing A. That is the pesticide that the Environmental Protection Agency said it should ban but it wouldn't be able to ban until 1991 so we should be keeping apples in our refrigerators until such time as they get together on banning Alar Q. Were you all instrumental in getting all the 10 grapes and everything in Chili banned 11 A. That had nothing to do with the Natural Resources 12 Defense Counsel or any environmental group That was action 13 taken by the Food and Drug Administration of the United States 14 for reasons best known by the FDA 15 Q. Did you support that action 16 A. I didn't really know what to make of it They 17 analyzed one grape and found some kind of a trace of cyanide in 18 it I don't consider that in a class with the deliberate 19 application of Alar to half the red apples grown in the United 20 states consumed by adults and children 21 Q. Let's see if I can find out who some of the quote 22 stuffed close quote east coast newspapers are Is 23 the New York Times one of those 24 A. That was the principal one to which I referred 25 Q. Do you find it to be a reputable and highly C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 122 regarded newspaper A. Yes I do Q. And do you find it to have enjoyed that reputation for over a century A. I don't know how long it's had that reputation But I read the newspapers a lot and I consider myself very astute in appraising the quality of journalism of newspapers I've dealt with the media for 20 years in the field of occupational and environmental health and I've seen how they 10 report issues with which I am intimately familiar And based 11 on that I would characterize the New York Times as a very 12 competent newspaper but also kind of a stuffy newspaper in the 13 way that it reports the news 14 Q. In your view of historical matters relating to 15 substances did you note that the New York Times enjoyed a 16 reputation of attempting to correctly and accurately report 17 scientific matters 18 A. Well I think that the New York Times does that as 19 well as any city newspaper in the country 20 Q. Is the Washington Post another stuffed 21 newspaper 22 A. They are a little less stuffy than the New York 23 Times 24 Q. But is it still one of them Are we talking 25 degrees here C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 123 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. We're talking degrees here yes Q. How about the -- A. We have got about -- Q. How about the Wall Street Journal A. Well the Wall Street Journal does very solid reporting It's editorials are another story But the reporting of the Wall Street Journal is remarkably good Q. Do you find that it has enjoyed that reputation for about a century or so A. I don't really know how long I mean I am just talking about my own experience as someone who you know for example was very much involved in the aftermath of the Bophal disaster and reading the New York Times and Wall Street Journal Washington Post every day for months on end about the way they were covering that development as well as all the trade magazines in the chemical industry and other publications from abroad MR HAYS Do you think this is relevant It's 4:30 in the afternoon and you're going through a list of newspapers MR CROSBY Yes sir and I will tie it up for you at trial Q. By Mr. Crosby Now let me ask you this Did you go to Bophal and do an investigation of your own there A. I didn't go to India I had become acquainted C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 124 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 with very many people who were involved in the situation both in India and in the United States one of whom I expect to meet tonight MR CROSBY With the understanding that I will be able to complete my questioning of this witness after passing the witness temporarily for one of the talc attorneys to make inquiry I pass the witness and reserve my further questioning relating to asbestos in general and with respect to Corning Fiberglass in particular And I think counsel is aware that I have a series of questions that will be perhaps quite lengthy and I do not want to in any way indicate that I am in any way waiving my right to pursue those questions We got an agreement on that MR HAYS I haven't heard the questions yet MR CROSBY I understand You may not like some of the questions as we go along and you may have some reservations about some of the questions or objections but if for instance -- MR HAYS You are not waiving your right to ask them I understand that You can about newspapers tomorrow if you want to and the funny papers in particular MR CROSBY No. Those are the only ones I needed to ask about at this time unless I see some of them in C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 125 the materials that he has tomorrow that are provided that formed the basis of some of his opinions So I temporarily yield -- MR HAYS It's 4:30 4:30 is my time off the record for just a second Let's go Whereupon a discussion was held off the record - BY MR HINKLE CROSS EXAMINATION Q. Mr. Castleman will there be other representatives 10 of this Natural Resource Defense Group at the hearing tomorrow 11 A. I don't believe so 12 Q. You are the only one that will be there 13 A. Right 14 Q. Are there others in the Baltimore area other 15 members 16 A. They may be members but they are not people who 17 work as members of the staff or consultants This is a group 18 who's probably got 50,000 members around the country that send 19 them annual dues they're members 20 Q. Are you the only one that has ever attended any 21 hearings like this on behalf of that organization 22 A. I think so The attorney involved in the New York 23 office may have come to one of the hearings just to make -- 24 yes she did in fact come to the presentation where we 25 presented NRDC's statement But aside from that I have been C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 126 the only person I have been the point man for NRDC dealing with EPA on this ruling Q. Do you hold an office with the NRDC A. No. Q. Are you paid a salary by the NRDC A. No. Q. This is a voluntary service on your part A. Well actually I made 1500 out of my work in this connection since 1986 so it comes close to being volunteer 10 work but I got paid something for it 11 Q. Are there other organizations that have interests 12 similar to the NRDC's that will be there 13 A. There are no organizations that will be 14 represented in the way that I can represent NRDC unless I am 15 there because I know more than anybody else in the 16 environmental movement about the hazards of asbestos 17 Q. As I understand it -- 18 MR CROSBY I move to strike the voluntary 19 assessment of the witnesses credentials and knowledge 20 MR PIERCE I disagree with him 21 Q. By Mr. Hinkle You were advised some time ago 22 that we were going to need at least two days for this 23 deposition were you not 24 A. I was advised that you wanted two days 25 Q. Well you were told a minimum of two days were C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 127 127 127 you not A. I believe I was told that you wanted two days H blocked out two days and I was of course aware of the fact that at the end of the two days in all likelihood at least one of the dozens of attorneys would object to the fact that they hadn't had more time because this has happened many times in the past But be that as it may I have put aside as much time as I could The call from the EPA came sometime last week and 10 there is nothing I can do to get the government to change its 11 schedule for you all or for me 12 Q. When you got the call from the EPA did you notify 13 Mr. Hays or anyone with John Norman's law office about that 14 A. Not immediately The call was dropped on my 15 answering machine Later on I did eventually get the call I 16 called Jacqui Warren at NRDC in New York and discussed 17 briefly -- 18 Q. I don't need to know about your discussions with 19 her I am trying to get some timing down here When was it 20 that you were notified that you were going to have a problem on 21 the 6th of July with regard to this deposition 22 A. Well I didn't think I would necessarily have a 23 problem I was hoping we could get this all over with in time 24 for me to scoot off tomorrow afternoon and go down to 25 Washington I wasn't assuming we would have a problem ff , ACC Crinna Crinna 128 I felt that the talc literature could be expeditiously dealt with in the time allotted But in any event the information from EPA came to me late last week something like Friday Thursday or Friday Q. That is when you knew about it then A. proceeding That is when I knew that the EPA was holding this It didn't occur to me right away - Q. All I want to know is when A. --that there was necessarily a conflict It took 10 me a little while longer to realize that that might cause some 11 problems in connection with this deposition 12 Q. You knew Thursday or Friday of last week that this 13 hearing was going to take place Thursday of this week you had 14 a weeks notice 15 A. Right Maybe it was Friday 16 Q. When did you notify Mr. Hays or someone at John 17 Norman's office about that 18 A. I don't recall 19 THE WITNESS Did I talk to you about it this 2 weekend or after you got up here 2 MR HAYS Last night 2 Q. By Mr. Hinkle You notified representatives of 3 the plaintiff's firms that hired you about this conflict last 24 night 25 MR HAYS Counsel in fairness he didn't say C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 129 he was aware that it was going to be a conflict He thought it might be expedited And to that end we have agreed to incorporate depositions we have supplied lists we have worked to get copies for you and we have answered a rather banal list of questions today In fact very little has been accomplished and we asked for the talc people to go first to cover the talc articles That was not done even though the talc people were here although you were not here and some others 10 did not arrive until late based upon the fact that we 11 were going to have a video deposition I understand 12 that But things didn't transpire the way we had 13 planned 14 MR HINKLE Mr. Hays we were doing all that 15 we could to accommodate you 16 MR HAYS I understand that And I am in 17 agreement with you 18 MR HINKLE Please I have been sitting back 19 there at the end of the table listening to all three 20 people talking at one time and watching this poor court 21 reporter trying to keep up with everybody so why don't 22 we try as hard as we can to not intrude on one another 23 and make sure that there is only one person talking at a 24 time 25 MR HAYS That's a very reasonable request and C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 130 I will do my best to do that MR HINKLE I appreciate that Q. By Mr. Hinkle Do I understand that having learned Thursday or Friday of last week that you were going to want to shut the deposition down at 1:00 tomorrow you didn't notify anybody until last night Is that true A. Well it didn't happen quite that way I got a notice from the EPA on my telephone line I eventually called up Jacqui Warren to ask if she intended to go down to represent 10 NRDC At some point it occurred to me that this deposition 11 might still be going on Thursday afternoon even though it 12 started Wednesday morning and that probably occurred to me 13 sometime over the weekend I didn't make the connection right 14 away And then the next time I talked to Mr. Hays I told him 15 about it 16 Q. That was last night 17 A. That was last night I hadn't been in touch with 18 Mr. Hays over the July 4th weekend 19 Q. That was my question You didn't tell anybody 20 about what you saw as a conflict until last night 21 A. I didn't even know how to get in touch with 22 Mr. Hays 23 2 Were you served with a subpoena 24 A. Yes I think Friday I got a subpoena from you all 25 0 Do you understand what a subpoena is C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 131 131 131 A. I understand that a subpoena is something that gets me down at all hours of the day and night to answer the front door and very often is accompanied by an extremely burdensome request Q. Do you understand that a subpoena a response to a subpoena is not optional A. I understand that I do my very best to respond to subpoenas and in a way that serves the judicial system in this case by making every effort I could to provide the new 10 information related to the health hazards of talc which I have 11 developed which I thought was going to be the subject of this 12 deposition in the first place 13 Q. Has any attorney told you that you are free to 14 modify a subpoena whenever it suits your schedule 15 A. No but I have seen countless examples in my own 16 experience where I have been told to disregard subpoenas or 17 certain things that were requested in subpoenas by plaintiff's 18 attorneys and that the plaintiff's attorneys were subsequently 19 not admonished by the courts for having given me those kinds of 20 instructions namely owing to the time that the subpoenas 223 arrived and the extraordinarily burdensomeness of the requests 22 that the subpoenas contained as we as the intrusiveness of the 23 subpoena sometimes Not necessarily referring to yours 24 Q. Did you consult with an attorney as to whether or 25 not you are free to rectify a scheduling problem to ignore or C.S.R. ASSOCIATES L372 modify the subpoena in this case MR HAYS Counsel excuse me Are you saying that he's sought to modified the subpoena MR HINKLE The subpoena does not say anything about the deposition will be continued from hour to hour at the discretion of the witness MR HAYS The subpoena as I recall simply mentions a starting time does not mention an ending time and is very vague and uncertain as far as the 10 first paragraph in there when it talks about a starting 11 time at 10:00 July 5th as opposed to other subpoenas 12 where you mentioned a period from 9:00 or 10:00 to 5:00 13 or 6:00 It doesn't have that sort of specific 14 designation for some reason Doesn't even mention the 15 two days that you refer to 16 Q. By Mr. Hinkle Do you understand what the rules 17 provide with regard to subpoenas Mr. Castleman 18 A. am not an attorney and I will not represent 19 myself as understanding the kind of things that you all are so 20 well schooled in no I do my best to comply with your 21 subpoenas Understand that I have received a lot of subpoenas 22 and I have done my best to comply with them all 23 Q. Do you understand if you had notified us about 24 this problem that you are having that probably a lot of the 25 people that are going to be sitting around here waiting until C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 133 133 133 you finish your hearing wouldn't be here or would have made arrangements to do other things A. Well I think if those people would have known what was going to go on here today they probably wouldn't have come today either But there wasn't any way of my anticipating the fact that there would be so much redundant and superlative questioning going on I can't be responsible for everybody's problem in this room It's all I can do to cope with the problems in my own life and I'm doing the best that I can Q. You could have called Mr. Hays though and informed him about this problem 12 A. I don't even know his home phone number I was 13 trying to take a little vacation this weekend 14 Q. We've been talking a while today about talc So 15 we will have a working definition and so we'll all be in 16 agreement with regard to what we're talking about what exactly 17 is talc 18 A. Talc is used in the industry as a mixture of 19 minerals of various kinds depending on where it is mined 20 Q. Is that as good a definition as you can give us 21 A. I think it's a correct definition as far as it 22 goes 23 Q. Well we can say a lot of things that are correct 24 and it may not be the best we can do What I am getting at 25 here is I would like you to give me the best definition for C.S. ASSOCIATES 134 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 222 22 23 24 25 talc the substance that we're going to be discussing as you can give us A. I have given you that Q. A mixture of minerals of various kinds depending upon where it's mined right A. That is right Depending on where it comes from different talc deposits have different constituants Q. So any concern that markets or distributes a mixture of minerals of various kinds depending on where it comes from should be on notice of the matters that you have discerned in these articles that you have told us about A. If that material was marketed as talc or industrial talc then I think they should be on notice about literature relating to the hazards of talcs used in industry not necessarily each and every article of course but in a general sense manufacturers and sellers of products should be more than dimly aware of the health hazards associated with such problems Q. Have you ever heard of the term Slip A. No. Q. Do you know what Slip is A. No. Q. Well should the manufacturer of Slip since Slip is a mixture of minerals of various kinds depending upon where it comes from should the manufacturers and C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 135 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 distributors of Slip be on notice of anything with regard to any of the articles that you have discussed here concerning talc A. Let me just say that I am unfamiliar with the technical jargon which includes the word Slip Now if Slip is a synonym used in the trade for industrial grade talc then the answer to your question would be yes But I am not hear to --- I think it's very clear that if you sell something you call talc and there's a body of medical literature on something called talc that that is relevant to your business And if you also call your product Slip or if the people in some factory call it Slip that seems to me beside the point I don't know what Slip is Q. By the way is Jacqui Warren going to be present at this hearing tomorrow A. No. Q. Are you telling us that there is some consensus in the medical community with regard to whether or not inhalation of talc as you have defined it poses a health hazard to people who breathe it A. I am saying that there is a body of scientific literature that goes back to the turn of the century that says that people who breathe talc can get sick from it And that that is what is relevant to the historic sale of that product by the companies that marketed stuff they call talc C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 136 Q. My question to you sir was Is there a consensus in the medical field with regard to the dangers posed by inhalation of talc A. I know that there is certainly controversy over what it is in different types of talcs that is particularly pernicious And different people will I am sure say different scientists today will I am sure give somewhat different at least somewhat different opinions on the weight that might be given to this or that constituant of these 10 industrial products as to which ones which constituants 11 constitute what percent of the health hazard or which 12 constituants constitute the most serious or less serious health 13 hazard Controversy never ends especially where money is 14 involved But even if there wasn't I think there would be 15 controversy in this case because this is a complex problem 16 Q. All I wanted to know from you sir is as you sit 17 here today are you prepared to testify that there is some 18 consensus in the medical community concerning the dangers posed 19 by the inhalation of talc 20 A. I think there is a consensus in the medical 21 community that inhaling industrial grade talcs has to be 22 presumed to be hazardous to your lungs I think no matter what 23 the constituants of it are even if it is called pure talc 24 sufficient quantities sufficient exposures to the called 25 pure talc will cause lung damage I read that in the medical CSR CSR CSR ASSOCIATES 137 literature I think that is a currently held view a majority view although I say that with some hesitancy because I am not here as an expert on the current state of medical knowledge about talc as a health hazard I am here basically as someone who has looked at the historical development of scientific and medical knowledge as someone who might have been in the talc selling business might have looked at the open scientific literature at any time in the 1930s 40s 50s and 60s to see what was reported about this product not necessarily what 10 the current state of medical knowledge and controversies on it 11 are 12 Q. You mentioned the term industrial grade talc How 13 does that differ from the definition of talc that you gave us 14 earlier 15 A. It doesn't But mineralogists do have something 16 that they refer to as pure talc and this is a particular 17 mineral which as far as I have been able to determine is 18 rather unusual to be found in a really pure state But they do 19 have a mineral that they call talc and the mineralogists have 20 a distinct meaning when they use the term 21 Q. So you are saying that the definition you gave us 22 earlier that is a mixture of minerals of various kind 23 depending upon where it comes from will apply equally to pure 24 talc and industrial grade talc that definition will apply to 25 either C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 138 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. am not sure I understand your question think that that is wrong No I Q. All right A. As I understand what we have been talking about the called pure talc of the mineralogists is a pure substance it is a particular mineral It is a pure substance as I understand it Q. Can you give me your understanding of the working definition of the pure substance talc When you read it in these articles what is it that we're talking about what is it that we will be discussing A. I would have to fan through the articles to actually look up the molecular formula that they give but there is something they refer to as pure talc And I have to admit I am not sure I could tell you what pure asbestos is for that matter without looking it up in somebody's you know description of the mineral composition Q. So as I understand it as you sit here today you are unable to give us a working definition of the term pure talc Is that true A. No it's just that we have got six minutes left this afternoon If you want to ask me the question tomorrow morning I will look it up in one of these articles and I will tell you All I am saying is that mineralogists have something they call pure talc this for practical purposes is not the C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 139 139 139 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 only thing present used in talcs that have been used in the industry The talcs that have been used in the industry are mixtures of minerals and various things have been written over time about the types of health effects attributed to working and breathing these types of materials and that is what is in medical and scientific literature that I think is relevant to what we're talking about here today Q. So if I understand what you just told me you are unable to at this moment give me a working definition of the term pure talc A. I am unable to recite to you the chemical formula for the mineral that a mineralogist defines as talc Q. I don't want the chemical formula A. That is the answer to your question Q. Please We're trying to make an agreement here that both of us don't intrude on the court reporter I will try not to intrude on your answers if you will show me the same courtesy Okay Fair enough A. Go ahead Q. Now if you are going to make statements about a substance called pure talc I want to know what you're talking about when you make those statements so that we will be on the same wavelength that And if you don't know then you can tell me A. All right Let me see if I can find one of these C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 articles where they say what the mineralogists call pure talc and I will give you the chemical formula for it Q. If you don't know sir you can just tell me I can read the articles A. That is great because I don't know it off the top of my ANDAND I do not know the chemical formula for what mineralogists call pure talc off the top of my head You can find it in the articles sometime when we have more than four minutes left Q. How does pure talc differ from industrial grade talc that you mentioned when you use that term industrial grade talc A. I thought I explained that Industrial grade talc tends to be a mixture of minerals because the stuff that comes out of the ground isn't pure Q. What minerals do you expect to find in talc for it to meet your definition of industrial grade talc A. It varies I mean the articles describe the number of types of constituants that are found in the talcs these include tremolite they include silica Schultz and Williams's article is probably a pretty good source if you want a catelog of the different types of things that have been looked for in industrial talcs published in 1942 in the Journal of Industrial Hygiene We have got it out at the Xerox place right now C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 141 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. I would like to know as you sit here today what you can recall and we will get the articles out tomorrow and look at them but I would like to know in the next four minutes what you can recall Tremolite silica Anything else A. Those are the things that stand out in my memory but there are certainly other things that have been associated Anthophyllihtaes also been reported And there are other kinds of things that are a little less familiar to me because my own backgound happens to include a particular emphasis on such things as quartz or silica and fibrous minerals like tremolite and anthophyllite But there are other things a little less familiar to me and therefore not so easily recalled by me which are enumerated in such articles as that of Schultz and Williams in 1942 Q. If a talc product does not contain tremolite silica or anthophyllite does that still fall into the category of industrial grade talc in your thinking A. Well it does unless -- I mean if it's used in industry it's industrial grade talc unless it's mineralogically speaking absolutely pure in the sense of what a mineralogist means by talc in which case it would also be an industrial talc but it would be also a mineralogically pure talc as distinguished from evidently almost every form of talc that has been used in industry all over the United States and Europe C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 142 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. So if I understand what you're saying you define industrial grade talc by its use as opposed to its composition If it's used in industry it's industrial grade talc is that right A. No. I mean it mainly by its composition Q. And the composition -- A. Composition is a mixture Q. You have told me about tremolite silica and anthophyllite that you are aware of A. Yes Q. Would you also categorize talc without tremolite silica and anthophyllite as industrial grade talc simply because it's used in industry A. Well I would if it had anything in it except what the mineralogists call talc and even there you know it's kind of like getting hung up on the words at that point to say whether or not it's industrial grade or not If it's pure if it's pure enough to be like - I mean if it's the highest grade of pharmaceutically pure talc or something like that then perhaps we're talking about a different animal But industrial talcs that are described in the literature are for the most part mixtures of minerals Q. Would you agree with me that the danger assuming that there is some danger posed by the inhalation of talc will depend in a large part on the minerals that are contained in C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 it A. Sure Q. others Some types of talc may be more dangerous than A. That's true Q. Some types of talc may be safe A. I am not so sure about that although there may be some people who think so Q. Well have you seen in your research into the subject of talc any references to the fact that science has been unable to connect health hazards with exposure to certain types of talc A. I've seen certainly some statements like that by a couple of authors from the Firestone Rubber Company in 1950 talking about the use of talc in the rubber industry Q. Anyone else A. At least they said one type of talc I think the type of talc they used wasn't so bad There is also a statement in the 1941 text of Rutherford Johnstone to the effect that talc produced no undue pulmonary fibrosis which is kind of a backhanded way at that of saying something is not dangerous But in his 1948 text he went ahead and reported that subsequent studies had shown to the contrary that talc was not innoculous Q. We will come back to that tomorrow And let's C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 144 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 close with this question You said that you believe that there is a majority opinion with regard to whether or not exposure to talc poses a health hazard right A. Well I have tried to hedge on what the current state of knowledge might be but looking at all these articles that have been published over time it seems to me that there has been a continuing thread a strong thread of statements in the medical literature and other scientific literature to the effect that talcs used in industry are causing disease and some of them aren't causing real serious disease and some of them are killing people but they are causing lung damage and that this is evident in various ways pulmonary function tests chest ray abnormalities and pathologic evidence Q. All I wanted to know was whether or not -- you had told me earlier that there is a majority position with regard to whether or not inhalation of talc poses a health hazard Is there in your opinion or is there not A. I haven't taken a survey of what the current status of talc is I have seen reports by people from the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health and others that would suggest to me that the majority opinion of people who are somewhat knowledgeable about this probably is to the effect that industrial talcs as have been used in this country have caused disease Q. And with regard to whether -- assuming that there C.S.R. ASSOCIATES is a majority opinion on that do you have any idea when that majority opinion became a majority opinion as opposed to a minority opinion Q. I think it's always been a majority opinion since people were investigating the subject I think in the 30s and 40s you were finding sometimes very little damage sometimes very grave damage But the range has always been of people finding degrees of damage attributable to breathing talc Not people saying that it doesn't cause any harm at all and other 10 people saying maybe it does 11 Q. So if I hear what you're saying that insofar as 12 you have been able to determine from reviewing these articles 13 it has always been the majority opinion that inhalation of talc 14 poses a health hazard to those who inhale it 15 A. Yes and certainly if inhaled in sufficient 16 quantities 17 MR HINKLE I guess that is a good place to 18 take up in the morning Anybody want to say anything at 19 this point 20 MR CROSBY I think that you wanted us to go over 21 something with you Doctor so we would be straight 22 on -- 23 THE WITNESS What you want me to bring 24 MR CROSBY What you were to bring 25 THE WITNESS My list is You want the traveling C.S.R. C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 146 corporate files and I will find out who all is represented here so I don't leave anybody out List of talc references sent initially to Edholm Okay That was my old list from my old talc file And you want the stuff from Kenneth Lynch's files that I got from the California lawyers about Kaolin pneumoconiosis MR CROSBY that I have here Let me go through the other things The NIOSH report THE WITNESS I don't know if I have that I 10 know that if I don't have it that Mr. Hays can come 11 up with it 12 MR HAYS We will see if we can They may have 13 it themselves 14 MR CROSBY I do not If I did I wouldn't ask 15 for it 16 THE WITNESS Who's representing talc people 17 Do you all have this NIOSH report There is a NIOSH 18 study of rubber workers I will look for it 19 What else 20 MR CROSBY You had mentioned your letter 21 to the Food and Drug Since the articles are gone 22 I don't know if it's in there 23 THE WITNESS It's in there 24 MR CROSBY That is fine If you get the 25 additional talc articles will you bring those You C.S.R. ASSOCIATES said you thought the ones that the sharp lawyer didn't find you were going to undertake THE WITNESS I've got another sharp lawyer MR CROSBY All right sir We should have the asbestos articles here in the morning I asked you if you would please look or see if you could find the Vigliani articles and Johnstone 1960 and looking through your articles you didn't see them 10 THE WITNESS I will see if I have it 11 MR CROSBY When you say you are talking about 12 the traveling company knowledge documents -- 13 THE WITNESS It's the same old stuff 14 MR CROSBY What I am getting at that may be 15 what your traveling company documents are I want 16 you to be sure those are the documents upon which you 17 base your opinions 18 MR GOSS Doctor one other thing You had just 19 referred to your list of citations from your old talc 20 file If there is anything else in that old talc file 223 we would like the entire copy of your old talc file 22 THE WITNESS Anything else 23 MR HOOD I would like the record to reflect that 24 we have got a room full of lawyers from all over the 25 country -- C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 148 MR HAYS We went off the record and we understood that was going to be the end of the questioning today you had MR HOOD I have got a statement for the record if you will let me make it I am willing to sit here as long as we need to to finish this witnesses deposition I think it's a mistake to recess at 5:00 We have been given no reason other than the witness wanted to leave He doesn't have any medical or health 10 reasons for leaving I think it's going to result in 11 an inconvenience to all of the lawyers including 12 plaintiff's counsel anticipating he's going to try to 13 leave at 1:00 14 I have got at least eight hours of questions 15 for this witness There might be lots more than that 16 depending on his responses and promptness of his 17 responses and completeness of the responses I am 18 going to move to disqualify him as a witness at the time 19 of trial if I am not allowed to -- 20 MR HAYS You have made your statement I will 21 reserve my response 22 MR HOOD I just want you to know where I am 23 coming from 24 MR HAYS You have got plenty of depositions 25 from this gentleman You come from a group of attorneys C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 149 that I am sure have lots of information and a book on him I consider the fact that you state you have got eight hours of questioning coming when you are going to be following another attorney that is going to be questioning on asbestos you have got all that asbestos I think that's the rankest form of intimidation and I think you are trying to wear the witness out and I don't think you are going to disqualify anyone based on that 10 MR HOOD When you hear the questions and 11 answers you may change your opinion 12 MR CROSBY Just for the record I join in the 13 comments by Mr. Hood I don't know how long my 14 questions will be since I have not been privy to the 15 documents we had requested with the witness and as it 16 now turns out he had some of the articles and documents 17 for the other deposition this morning 18 MR HAYS That deposition was going to be 19 incorporated into this deposition so there you are 20 MR CROSBY I don't know if it was going to be 21 incorporated Corning didn't agree to that 22 MR HAYS It was our understanding it was going 23 to be incorporated 24 MR HINKLE The agreement was it would be 25 typed up and attached -- C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 150 MR CROSBY If anyone representing Corning Fiberglass entered into that stipulation it was without my knowledge and without the knowledge of Corning Fiberglass MR JAMES As regard to Pittsburgh there is no agreement to that effect either MR HAYS We're off the record I assume there will be no further records made in my absence Whereupon the deposition was recessed until July 6th 10 at 10:00 a.m. 11 Q. BY MR HINKLE Dr. Castleman we were talking 12 yesterday about categories of talc and we had broken it down 13 basically into two categories pure talc and industrial grade 14 talc Do you recall 15 A. Yes 16 MR CROSBY Could we find out what the witness 17 brought with him so we could be looking at that while 18 you are asking your questions 19 MR HINKLE I think that's just fine 20 Q. By Mr. Hinkle Dr. Castleman if you would 21 describe for us what materials that you brought with you today 22 A. I have brought with me what I refer to as the 23 traveling files relating to corporate knowledge under numerous 24 categories either by company or by type of information some 25 relating to trade associations and some relating specifically C.S.R. ASSOCIATES to companies MR HAYS We just ask that you look at them right here if you would and not be passing the files around if that would be all right with you MR CROSBY Well the problem I have is that right here in front of me is the table that is occupied by exhibits and the witnesses coffee cup and various files MR HAYS Well we will move down and make room 10 for you 11 THE WITNESS We will make room for you I don't 12 want these files out of my sight right now Maybe later 13 on 14 MR CROSBY We are going to mark them as exhibits 15 to this deposition 16 MR HAYS Well after they're marked then that's 17 a different matter 18 THE WITNESS I would like them to be photocopied 19 first and you can mark whatever you want in them 20 MR CROSBY I am going to have a difficult time 21 having these photocopied in the witnesses presence 22 while he's being deposed 23 THE WITNESS I didn't say you had to do 24 that MR CROSBY You just said you didn't want them C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 152 out of your sight THE WITNESS At the moment I don't want them out of my sight Mr. Hays can probably arrange to have them photocopied and he can handle the documents with the photocopying place I am sorry but that is the nature of this litigation is that sometimes things get lost when you go back and forth MR HAYS There are so many attorneys something can be innocently misplaced not intentionally 10 MR CROSBY I find the comments by the witness 11 unfounded 12 MR HAYS Well let's not get into this We're 13 not interested in your early morning bantering 14 MR CROSBY Fine 15 MR HAYS You can take a look at them they are 16 right in front of us-- 17 MR CROSBY Let's mark this box as the next 18 numbered exhibit 19 MR HAYS Play your little game 20 MR CROSBY And then I am going to have them 21 copied as soon as I can I'm trying to expedite 22 matters Mr. Hays 23 MR HAYS We just asked you to look at them ; 24 right there and you're fighting about it MR CROSBY I can't copy them sitting right here C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 153 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR HAYS You aren't copying them right now just asked to look at them You THE WITNESS Why don't you pull up a chair put them on a chair and look at the files MR CROSBY I would rather do it at the table down there at the very end where there is plenty of room MR HAYS The first thing you will do is find something that is not applicable to you some one will pick up the file the file will lay on the table and get mixed up with someone else's file There will be a piece gone something will be missing MR WAGNER Just for the record I don't think the witness completed his answer to your question Mr. Hinkle THE WITNESS I am not trying to be difficult MR CROSBY You are succeeding without trying Go ahead Mr. Hinkle What else Q. By Mr. Hinkle Let's go ahead and catelog for us again what else you brought please A. This is something that I just received relating to Kaolin and pneumoconiosis Kenneth Lynch papers which were mailed to me by the Casey Gerry Law Firm Q. When did you receive that particular item A. Within the last few days The cover page is dated C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 221 221 25 June 29 1989 the transmittal letter Q. receipt Do you not have a stamp which shows your date of A. I didn't come here prepared the envelope it came in you know to show you Q. I didn't ask you that I asked you -~ A. I don't stamp things received I don't have a secretary -- Q. Then that is the answer to the question Dr. Castleman A. I don't have an accountant Q. Just a moment Dr. Castleman Let's try to get off on the right foot today shall we And let's have the same agreement we had yesterday and I will not intrude on your answers if you do not intrude on the questions And we will do this out of respect for the court reporter All right A. Go ahead Q. All I asked you was whether or not you had stamped your date of receipt on that document A. I have never worked in an office where that was done except the government offices I was employed in Q. So the answer to that question is no correct A. Correct Q. All right Go Tell us what else you brought A. You asked for the talc reference file Here it C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 220 220 22 23 24 25 is Many of these are duplicated duplicative references of things that we have already discussed Others relate to talc in their use as cosmetic powders and ovarian cancer and the controversies about that in the early 70s which I hadn't originally thought was all that relevant to this case But in any event you are welcome to look through them and come to your own conclusions My own list of articles early articles that I had came from a letter I had written to somebody in 1980 or part of a letter on it I had written And then I had marked a few This is my initial list of old articles on more talc things that I knew about Q. Stand by for a moment and let's try to make some sense out of this We're going to mark this box that you brought which I think you have told us is your traveling corporate file Is that what you called it A. Yes Q. We will mark that as Exhibit No. 86 law The office packet of documents that you received from relating to Kaolin we will mark as Exhibit the Gerry 87 MR CROSBY Let me state in the record that No. 86 is a box with the contents containing several files will count the files in a minute 87 is the memo with documents relating to Kaolin C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 156 And I will affix the Exhibit number to the memo that forwards it It's about an inch thick Q. By Mr. Hinkle Now Exhibit No. 88 will be the file that you -- the talc reference file is that what you call it A. It's marked talc references et cetera Q. All right MR CROSBY I am affixing 88's exhibit sticker to the manila folder and this contains about an inch 10 and a half of various materials most of which appear 11 to be published 12 Q. By Mr. Hinkle Next please 13 A. This is a file marked IHF it's part of my 14 traveling files so that can just go with the afore numbered 15 exhibit box 16 Q. That would be 87 17 MR CROSBY No. It will be part of 86 18 Q. By Mr. Hinkle Part of Exhibit 86. All right 19 This July 7 1980 letter that you handed me we will 20 mark as exhibit what Mr. Crosby 21 MR CROSBY 89 22 Q. By Mr. Hinkle Exhibit No. 89 23 MR CROSBY It's a letter dated July 7 1980 _ 24 addressed in handwriting to Dear Ken with what appears 25 to be Xeroxed on the front side of Barry I. Castleman C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 10 11 2 3 2 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 157 Industrial Environmental Consultant down through and after mill man occupational medicine the Xerox ceases and handwriting begins in blue ink That won't show on Xerox that is why I dictated that in the record MR HAYS Let me check with you because I was getting some materials out that I had Xeroxed for you today I Xeroxed a copy of this stuff MR CROSBY Which may be a little late MR HAYS Exhibit 85 can we track down through 85 through 89 and make sure we're in sinc on this MR HINKLE I think that Dr. Castleman had some of those exhibits Isn't that right Ms. Reporter MR RHODES Yesterday when we left we couldn't find 81 and 83 THE WITNESS all back I had walked off with them They're MR CROSBY Are we on the record MR HOOD the record Did you get the witnesses comments on MR HAYS record Did you get Counsel's comments on the MR HINKLE Guys we're not going to get anywhere acting this way Let's pay attention to business Okay MR HAYS I appreciate that C.S.R. ASSOCIATES Lh 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR HINKLE Jim let's go to work MR HAYS If we can control these other attorneys fine I just want to deal with you MR HINKLE Let's go to work MR HAYS 85 is what MR CROSBY Excuse me please I am trying to answer your question The exhibits that were inadvertently taken yesterday have been returned and now we have a complete set and 85 is a handwritten list of the witness in black and in blue with parts of articles or titles of articles Xed out that was the basis of the search for the attorney 86 is the box of materials that the witness has referred to as his traveling documents relating to corporate matters 87 is a cover memo with attachments addressed to the witness from a legal assistant to Mr. Greenblatt 88 is a manila folder and its contents are entitled Talc References et cetera 89 -- Have you got that MR HAYS I have got that MR CROSBY Is the July 7th 1980 letter Q. By Mr. Hinkle Okay Is that all that you brought with you today Dr. Castleman A. For this deposition yes C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 22 22 23 24 25 Q. Did you bring anything else with you today A. I brought things that I am taking to Washington this afternoon to deal with the Environmental Protection Agency MR HAYS I also have some materials here that he has not been able to read that were hard to collect and I have brought those I have a stack of those He hasn't reviewed them yet MR HINKLE Well if he hasn't reviewed them I am not sure they have anything to do with the case MR HOOD There were two other items the Doctor was going to bring A NIOSH report and additional medicals articles which were to be obtained by a local law firm Do we have either of those THE WITNESS This is the additional medical articles that have so far been obtained from the very crossed out list of outstanding articles still outstanding MR HINKLE Let's get them in the record then THE WITNESS And the NIOSH study I have not been been able to find MR HOOD Can we get that identified MR HAYS that I think Mr. Hinkle will take care of MR CROSBY I don't know what's the quickest way C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 160 I can just give the numbers and identify what it is if you want me to MR HINKLE How many articles do we have here MR CROSBY One two three four -- there appear to be 10 articles although there is a page here that is just loose that may be a portion of an article rather than-- MR HAYS It's a portion of an abstract and it is a separate document 10 MR HINKLE May I see that Mr. Crosby please 11 We will mark this as a single exhibit comprised of 12 an article from the Journal of American Medical 13 Association Volume 3 December 1938 14 MR CROSBY Could we do separate numbers for 15 each one I will do the numbers That is 90 16 MR HINKLE That will be fine 17 Exhibit No. 91 is apparently an article in 18 German which I can't make heads or tails of 19 Q. By Mr. Hinkle Do you read German 20 Dr. Castleman 21 A. A little bit 22 Q. Would you be kind enough to give us the benefit of 23 your little bit of German and tell us what that is 24 A. Yes This is by Dr. Baader and it's a review on 25 talcosis C.S.R. ASSOCIATES Q. Can you give us a date a A. It's in a journal dated 1950 and it's from the German Medical Weekly or the Gesundheitsfursorge Und Arbeitsmedizin Q. The court reporter will probably not be able to follow that MR CROSBY I will hold it up for her so she can transcribe it MR HINKLE I think that is good enough for the 10 identification purposes That is Exhibit No. 91 11 MR CROSBY 91 yes sir 12 MR HINKLE Exhibit 92 is an article from the 13 American Medical Association Archives of Industrial 14 Health Volume 20 July through December of 1959 15 MR CROSBY So marked 16 MR HINKLE That is 92 17 MR CROSBY Right 18 MR HINKLE Exhibit No. 93 is an article from 19 the British Journal of Industrial Medicine 1949 20 entitled Talc Pneumoconiosis 21 Exhibit No. 94 appears to be well let me just 22 ask 23 Q. By Mr. Hinkle Dr. Castleman do you know what 24 this is 25 A. This is a 1937 article from the Archives of -_lCrOtlmlOr!/ a. P. Yat. hk okMrakelal 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Pathology And we can probably get the correct citation wi little bit of checking Q. Just hand it back if you would please A. Can I write Archives of Pathology 1937 on it Q. Sure if it helps us identify it MR CROSBY It was 1937 wasn't it Q. By Mr. Hinkle Dr. Castleman do you know A. We had a little bit of difficulty locating it because of the cite I had written down didn't turn out to be exactly correct since this gentleman found it hopefully he knows what he found and what it was Q. All I would like to know is whether or not you know what this is Dr. Castleman MR HAYS which article are you referring to MR HINKLE It's styled Talcum Powder Granuloma by Robert Feinberg M.D. MR HAYS I apologize I should have gotten a coversheet I thought it would have the citation by volume and page internal to the article But it only says Archives of Pathology on Page 38 at the top But it would have been after 1936 so the 1937 date I estimate would be correct MR CROSBY Number 94 is an article entitled Talcum Powder Granuloma No. 94 MR HINKLE Exhibit No. 95 is an article from C.S.R. C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES ASSOCIATES 163 163 163 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 the Archives of Environmental Health Volume 10 March 19 '65 entitled Effect of Talc Dust Inhalation on Lung Function Exhibit No. 96 is another article from Archives of Environmental Health Volume 9 November 1964 entitled Lung Function in Talc Workers Exhibit No. 97 is another article from the Archives of Environmental Health Volume 7 July 1963 entitled Talc Pneumoconiosis Q. By Mr. Hinkle Exhibit No. 98 can you identify Exhibit No. 98 for us please sir A. This is from the abstracts section of the Journal of Industrial Hygiene Volume 17 Page 60 May 1935 and it's an abstract covering the article of Dr. Dreessen on Pages 60 and 61 Q. By Mr. Hinkle And can you identify Exhibit No. 99 for us please sir A. This is also from the abstracts section of the Journal of Industrial Hygiene This is from the January 1931 Page 14 and the Volume number would be four numbers down from the preceding exhibit volume number it's not indicated on the face of the document So that would be Volume 13 I am writing V 13 Q. What does it deal with A. The abstract is about pneumoconiosis of sandstone C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 164 silica chalk porcelin granite cement and shell lime workers Q. All right MR HINKLE Mr. Hays did you bring anything else that we need to mark as an exhibit today MR HAYS No. I did copy these documents about Dr. Kenneth Lynch that were requested yesterday so everyone would have a copy MR CROSBY I'll pass them around 10 THE WITNESS This has already been marked as 11 an exhibit and I will just keep this for my copy 12 MR HINKLE Has it already been marked as an 13 exhibit 14 MR HAYS I think it was that portion of the 15 origina7l0 some odd N 16 MR CROSBY I don't know You all will have 17 to me help me out 18 THE WITNESS Yes It's No. 87 19 MR CROSBY It's in No. 87 because No. 87 is 20 considerably more bulky that what you just had 23 Q. By Mr. Hinkle Dr. Castleman as I understand 22 it there was some discussion yesterday about a NIOSH report 23 You have looked for that report and have been unable to locate 24 it Is that true 25 A. That's correct C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 102 102 102 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Will you identify that report for us by date and by subject matter A. It was an evaluation of rubber workers rubber worker plants and I think it even I included the Miami Oklahoma plant but I am not sure of that And I just looked at it briefly and as soon as I saw that it was of relatively recent vintage I passed over it because I was at that time more focused on the historical development of knowledge about talc and time was limited and I don't know what happened to that Q. Can you give us some idea about the date of that NIOSH report A. I think it was in the 1980s Q. Do you have any idea concerning the conclusions reached in that report A. No. Q. And you told us that you skipped over the more recent materials that were offered to you because you are more concerned with the historical development than the current state of knowledge A. Right I understood that the historical development was what I was going to be asked to talk about in this case not the current state of medical knowledge on talc disease Q. Now with regard to the articles that were brought C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 166 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 by Mr. Hays today and I believe that's Exhibits 90 through 99 you have not seen at all Is that true A. now right Well I haven't seen them until this morning just Q. Approximately five minutes ago A. Right MR HINKLE Okay Jim Let's go off the record for a moment MR HAYS Fine Whereupon a discussion was held off the record MR CROSBY I want to clarify something right now With respect to Exhibit No. 87 I have marked the documents contained in 87 as 87 A through 87 J so that each one bears its own exhibit sticker MR HAYS A through what I didn't hear you MR CROSBY J Now with respect to what is in the box if people want them copied what do you suggest we do MR HAYS Well I suggest they give us a note saying they want them copied and we can have them sent to them for the purposes of the deposition they can refer to the originals in the file We can go through the file that way and then after the deposition we can have them copied and they can make a list of the document if they want to in order to protect C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 La oe 5 themselves or they can just put it on the record by going through a document at a time MR CROSBY Let's go off for a second if it's all right Whereupon a discussion was held off the record MR CROSBY Exhibit '86 is the box and it contains 14 to 17 files depending on how you count them Included is -- I will read the tabs off of the manila folders and I will later mark them 86 A through whatever letter of the alphabet Saranac Studies Celotex Illinois C Rubberoid Picher Keene NIMA all caps A minutes Fibreboard Pittsburgh H.K. Porter Contract Unit Claims A separate file entitled Contract Unit Comp Claims A separate file Magnesa A A file that is not in the box but is a part of 86 is entitled IHF Another file entitled Garlock Another file entitled ATI After I have had a chance to review some of the documents I can have some indication of what of these materials I will want copied if it's less than all of them And I understand we're getting a table down here so that we can review the documents MR HINKLE I heard Mr. Rhodes make that request C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 168 of the some of the hotel staff so I am assuming that is being taken care of Q. By Mr. Hinkle ) Dr. Castleman do you 4 understand that you are being offered as an expert witness in the Oklahoma Tire Worker Litigation A. Yes Q. What do you see as the subject matter of your expertise in the Oklahoma Tire Worker Litigation 9 A. The subject matter as I see it is the presentation of the historical development of knowledge about the hazards of asbestos and talc as reflected in the public literature And with respect to asbestos the historical development of knowledge and actions taken of the basis of such knowledge in some cases on the part of the industry itself that is mined and manufactured asbestos products mined asbestos and manufactured asbestos products 17 Q. Do you see your expertise in the Oklahoma Tire 18 Worker Litigation extending beyond what you just said in any 19 way A. I don't think so anything in mind particularly But what ways do ; you have Q. Well no I want to know what you have in mind Dr. Castleman A. I told you Q. All right Now with regard to your expertise in Q. C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES the historical development of knowledge concerning the hazards of talc you consider yourself to be an expert in that regard A. Expert in the sense that I could aid the jury in understanding the fact that there has been a number of publications about talc dust as a cause of lung problems that these publications appeared in primarily medical journals published in this country and Great Britain as well as in other countries and other languages and that there was obviously a lot of other international exchange of information as reflected 10 in the literature So I would be aiding the jury in that sense 11 as an expert to tell them that this body of knowledge existed 12 Q. So I take it then that the answer to my question 13 is yes 14 A. It is in the sense that I have described 15 Q. All right Now at what point did you become an 16 expert in the historical develop of knowledge concerning the 17 hazards of talc 18 A. Within the last few days 19 2 Okay 20 A. I mean the process started earlier but the actual 22 sitting down and reading of the documentation to the point 22 where I could explain it somewhat was not until within the 23 last week anyway 24 Q. Within the last week 25 A. Well within the last week I sat down in a much C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 170 more detailed way than ever before and read a larger number of articles on this subject than I had ever before read Q. Did you consider yourself to be an expert in the historical development of knowledge concerning the hazards of talc say six months ago A. I did not consider myself an expert on that although I was aware of the fact there was a body of knowledge going pretty far back talking about talc as a respiratory hazard 10 Q. So I take it then that the consumation of your 11 expertise occurred having reviewed the articles that were 12 identified and marked yesterday 13 A. Yes and today 14 Q. And today All right 15 We talked yesterday about broad categories of talc pure 16 talc and industrial grade talc What I would like for you to 17 do today if you would please as an expert in the historical 18 development of medical knowledge concerning the hazards of 19 talc tell us what subcategories we might expect to find within 20 those broad categories 21 A. Well there are different minerals that are 22 present in different proportions and the various types of 23 talcs that have been used industrially If I could refer to 24 the Schultz and Williams article now that we have gotten them 25 back from the copying place This is No. 22 C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 171 MR HAYS I would like to request on the record that the originals of the Doctor's research the articles that he's presented at your request here today be returned to him and copies substituted MR HOOD I have got one comment on that As I have started to look at the copies several pages have been cut off by the copier So I wouldn't have an objection to that provided the copy is complete MR HINKLE One other - 10 MR HAYS And I make that request as to all 11 original documents Is there any problem with that 12 MR HINKLE Well the one thing that I would 13 be interested in having is I would like to have these 14 originals of these copies attached to the deposition 15 for this reason because the Doctor has made some 16 notations on them some in red ink some in blue 17 ink apparently some in pencil and he's done some 18 writing on the back So if the Doctor would have 19 no objection I would prefer to have these exhibit 20 with his handwriting on them attached to the deposition 21 We can certainly see to it that he gets copies of these 22 copies for his own use Is that all right 23 MR HAYS That's fine 24 MR CROSBY As long as we're doing housekeeping 25 let me reflect on the record that Exhibits -- C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 172 MR HAYS Let me clarify something that as to the box of documents too Do you mean THE WITNESS the talc articles Oh no We are only talking about MR HINKLE That's all that I was referring to Dr. Castleman But Mr. Crosby has something he needs to cleaunp evidently MR CROSBY What I am trying to do is elaborate Exhibit No. 86 has now been subcategorized such that it 10 now contains 86 A through 86 Q stickers affixed to 11 each particular manila folder that has the labels that I 12 previously read into the record And I have not yet had 13 an opportunity to sit at this table with other counsel 14 to review the documents but these are now marked as 15 exhibits to this deposition and after we have had a 16 chance to review them we can determine whether or not 17 we can exchange them for copies or not I just can't 18 say right now 19 MR HINKLE I guess you will have to take those 10 up on an item basis 21 MR HAYS If you want to have the entire box 22 copied that is no problem We're just trying to 23 resolve that If you want to send them out of here 24 and have them copied we can start that But you are 25 not going to have them available to question him C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 173 That's your problem really more than it is ours MR HINKLE I think that probably the items and matters we will be discussing with Dr. Castleman this morning won't be related to matters in the box anyway MR CROSBY Can we go ahead and send the box now for copying since the consensus the witness and the lawyers is we're not going to get past talc today anyway MR HAYS I don't have any problem if Kinko's can 10 pick it up here and deliver it back here 11 MR HINKLE Is that all right with everybody 12 MR HAYS We will place it in the custody of the 13 reporter 14 MR CROSBY And what we may do is give Kinko's 15 half of it and we can be reading the other half and 16 when they bring that half back give them the other 17 half 18 THE WITNESS I am going to be taking off in two 19 and a half hours 20 MR CROSBY She has custody of them until we get 21 them all back anyway Why don't we go ahead with 22 the questions We'll see if we can work out the 23 logistics of it 24 MR HAYS Why don't we just call Kinko's and get 25 them in here and we can give them half of them and the C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 174 Doctor will take half of them with him or I'll keep them How do you want to handle it MR HINKLE Let's go off the record Whereupon a discussion was held off the record MR HAYS It's understood that the originals will be returned to Dr. Castleman after they are checked for-- after the copies are checked for conformance with the original documents MR CROSBY That is true unless there is 10 something on an original in a different color ink 11 that can't be shown on the copy And provided the 12 witness also understands that these are now exhibits 13 to this proceeding and even when they are returned 14 he's to maintain them intact and in their present form 15 of integrity 16 MR HAYS Well not if we're substituting copies 17 If we're substituting copies we're making the copies 18 the exhibits and the originals are his documents to do 19 what he wants to with First of all those are his 20 documents They are not anybody else's property 21 MR CROSBY They are now in the Court's custody 22 MR HAYS They are in the Court's coustody 23 but it's still his personal property He's not giving 24 up that right by making it an exhibit If we substitute 25 copies then the copies are the record for the court C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 175 And those are returned to him are his own documents to do what he wants MR CROSBY I quite agree The problem being that if these are still exhibits and if there's problems with legibility and colors of ink and matters such as that I want him to understand he's not to do anything to interfere with the integrity until those matters are revolved MR HAYS That's fine We don't have any 10 problem with that 11 THE WITNESS But that is within a reasonably 12 short time of the copying Because these documents 13 travel around the country and I have no way of assuring 14 that any of these files are going to be maintained like 15 it was in a bank vault 16 MR CROSBY I think we have made whatever 17 position we have clear 18 MR HINKLE Dr. Castleman you just a moment 19 ago announced once again your intention to leave us 20 at -- what time did you say 21 THE WITNESS Between 1:00 and 1:30 I understand 22 there is a train that I can get to Washington on that 23 leaves at a little before 2:00 24 MR HINKLE In that connection Mr. Hays 25 arrangements have been made for a telephone conference C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 176 with the magistrate on this matter now I think that they are expecting a call from us And so who is in charge of getting the magistrate on the line The following is a telephone conversation with the Honorable Judge Wagner taken on July 6th 1989 during the depositon of Barry Castleman THE MAGISTRATE This is John Wagner 10 MS SIEGEL This is Nancy Siegel and we are here 11 with Mr. Hays in the asbestos litigation Can you 12 hear us 13 THE MAGISTRATE Yes 14 MS SIEGEL We have got a dinky speaker phone and 15 a bunch of lawyers 16 THE MAGISTRATE What seems to be the problem 17 MS SIEGEL We're here taking the deposition of 18 Dr. Castleman This was arragned with the plaintiff 19 some time ago I would think about a month ago the date 20 was arragned Notice went out to commence on the 5th of 21 July I think the file stamp was on July 23rd or 22 excuse me June 23rd Dr. Castleman was served with 23 notice I believe on or about July 28th There has 24 been no objection filed to that notice and it's my -- 25 MR HAYS I have filed an objection C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 177 MS SIEGEL There has been no objection filed as to the subpoena by an attorney on behalf of Dr. Castleman There has been an objection filed by plaintiff's counsel to the parameters of the notice THE MAGISTRATE what Could you -- objection to the MS SIEGEL There has been an objection filed by the plaintiff's counsel to the notice but there has been no objection filed as to the subpoena by a lawyer 10 on behalf of Dr. Castleman 11 By agreement yesterday morning we were to allow 12 the plaintiff and counsel for Picher in another 13 case pending in this jurisdiction in Maryland I guess 14 to have a video deposition to begin before the Oklahoma 15 litigation began their inquiry Apparently at the last 16 minute they settled that case and this deposition was 17 to commence at that time However a number of the 18 attorneys were delayed in arriving here because they 19 expected a video deposition in another case to be going 20 on 21 Yesterday we were advised by Dr. Castleman that he 22 had received notice about an EPA hearing to be conducted 23 in Washington that he intended to appear at this 24 afternoon and that he was going to leave this 25 deposition at 1:00 or 1:30 C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 178 He has additionally advised us that he will be available until approximately noon tomorrow So he intends to leave at 1:00 or 1:30 for the rest of the day and to return tomorrow to be present for approximately a half a day Our request to you at this point is for a little encouragement I guess to plaintiff's counsel to encourage this witness to obey the subpoena that has been served on him or in the alternative to request 10 that plaintiff's counsel pay for the expenses 11 associated with all these attorneys sitting around 12 wasting time for half a day until tomorrow morning 13 and that this witness be precluded from testifying at 14 the time of trial 15 And that is what we're calling about and the 16 request and the relief that we're seeking at this time 17 THE MAGISTRATE Mr. Hays 18 MR HAYS Good morning Magistrate Wagner 19 We have entered into a general agreement as to a 20 time estimate for depositions of experts to be a matter 21 of a two day period of time understanding that as 22 depositions go things can be prolonged or they can be 23 shortened 24 The subpoena that was served and the notice that 25 was served did not set forth a specific time period it C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 -179 just said it was to commence July 5th 1989 at 10:00 We filed an objection to that the Doctor adopted our objection to that subpoena yesterday This is the history of the matter because of Doctor -- THE MAGISTRATE What's the basis for the objection MR HAYS Well as to the third item that it was over broad They said they wanted All documents which you have reviewed or prepared or upon which you rely in support of any opinions or conclusions which you now have or will testify to at the time of trial concerning talc and it's manifestations in the chest and pulmonary disease caused by talc It has nothing -- it doesn't say anything about asbestos But we have in the spirit of this deposition supplied a great deal of documentation We supplied over 70 articles dealing with talc We have provided over -THE MAGISTRATE Let me interrupt you here MR HAYS Yes sir THE MAGISTRATE Are there any defendants of whom -- well Ms. Siegel says here there was -- we're not talking really about documents at this point that is not our fight MR HAYS Let me back up then this deposition - We agreed to take C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 180 THE MAGISTRATE You didn't object to the time MR HAYS No sir We agreed to take the deposition in concurrence with another deposition by Mr. Sutter It was a video deposition for trial in asbestos cases and Picher was a defendant It was agreed that we would adopt that deposition the transcript of that deposition incorporate it by reference into our deposition so that perhaps many questions concerning asbestos would be precluded by 10 these defendants All objections would be reserved 11 After that deposition then all defendants could 12 ask whatever questions they wanted to that weren't 13 repetitive concerning asbestos We did that in order to 14 accommodate all the parties Then the talc defendants 15 were to begin their questioning And there is a clay 16 component that is minor that won't take very much time 17 So that original deposition canceled because the case 18 was settled then the deposition commenced It 19 commenced oh between 10:00 and 11:00 I am not sure 20 of the exact time And that continued all day yesterday 21 until 5:00 We commenced this morning again at 10:00 22 Yesterday we advised them early that Dr. Castleman 23 had received this invitation just a few days before the 24 deposition to appear with the EPA This is a matter 25 he's been involved in for some period of time and 40 or C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 181 50 percent of his time is spent in public service and he's a part of this I believe it's 40 to 50. Is that correct Dr. Castleman So this is a matter that is a very serious concern because it involves a proclamation about asbestos and recommendations concerning its future use in the United States of America And he's been the point man for a group that has been pushing this matter for some period of time So this is the second day that we generally agree on for all the experts As you understand we have to give them an estimate of time and some of these experts in asbestos cases are called all over the country and are involved in many lawsuits So we agreed to come back in tomorrow morning and give them the half a day they would be losing by his taking off this afternoon And we felt that was fair And we have tried to shorten the deposition by agreeing to let them adopt and incorporate certain portions of depositions regarding his qualifications possible bias income so that they wouldn't have to ask any questions concerning that The asbestos defendants have his book many of them have been involved in litigation with him before and have documents In the spirit of cooperation we C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 182 have even provided them today a box of over 400 documents to be copied We think we have been in full compliance with the subpoena The only problem is taking off the half day so he can fulfill a prior obligation something he's been involved in for some period of time which we agreed to make up tomorrow Now I understand that they are going to say Well we didn't agree to a two day deposition No they didn't agree to a two day deposition but we have agreed to a two day estimate of time and we have given that information to our experts to expect to be deposed two days That is our understanding from our conversations with Mr. Hinkle who's been appointed as I understand as lead counsel to set up and schedule and coordinate all the depositions of these experts MR HINKLE Your Honor this is Mike Hinkle Part of the problem here is that you know that Dr. Castleman of course if he's got to be there at this deal nobody told us about it until yesterday so now all of our clients are going to be expected to pick up the cost of us waiting another day and another night of expense here for us And we understand that Dr. Castleman learned about this last Thursday or Friday and we didn't know a thing about it until we arrived here yesterday morning So it really isn't fair and C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 183 we're not unsympathetic to his desire to be elsewhere but it's really not fair for our clients to have to pick up the cost in order for him to make this hearing Also let me just respond to a couple of things I have never told anyone that we would limit these depositions to two days MR HAYS And I never stated that MR HINKLE I know but I want it very clear that Mr. Norman attempted to get us to agree to 10 limitation on expert depositions and I was not willing 11 to do that and I never intended to suggest to anybody 12 that we were going to limit these to two days And so 13 for a counsel to come in and say that we you know you 14 have got no complaint because we're going to give you 15 two days is not really fair because that was not our 16 deal 17 MR HAYS Your Honor let me respond to that 18 This subpoena as I read it has nothing to do with 19 asbestos It says Documents relating to talc in that 20 paragraph three that I have objected to except as to -- 21 Well there is something in the last paragraph and I 22 will have to retract that He stuck in asbestos talc 23 soapstone and clay So I will retract that The first 24 paragraph taketh away the fourth -- fifth paragraph on 25 the last page giveth back I apologize for that C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 184 But the point is they have deposed this gentleman many many times They have his book sitting on the table They have a multitude of documents that they have accumulated over the past In fact at one time it was discussed that the asbestos people might not even appear because he's not changing his testimony in regard to anything over the asbestos so far as I know except maybe some recent articles in the past few years and they can ask him about that But they haven't asked 10 that 11 They spent a lot of time just talking about a 12 Mr. Edholm who was a researcher that collected their 13 articles for him I don't think the time has been 14 efficiently utilized They haven't gone into the 15 substance of the matter as I see it and I think the 16 continuation of the deposition over until tomorrow I 17 doubt that they will even complete it when they are 18 given their half day I doubt that they will ever say 19 they have completed this deposition the way they are 20 approaching it at this point 21 MS SIEGEL Your Honor I have a couple of points 22 in response to Mr. Hays 23 First of all Mr. Hays feels that we are ; 24 conducting this deposition in an oppressive way or 25 under any of the parts of the federal rules which would C.S.R. ASSOCIATES allow him to come in and terminate the deposition and seek relief from the Court he may do so Thus far there has been no requests to do that Dr. Castleman with regard to this EPA hearing is not serving in any official capacity has not been ordered to be present there he desires to be present there Well somebody pointed out it's not a hearing I don't know exactly what the nature of this announcement 10 is that the EPA intends to make In other words he 11 just simply desires to be present there 12 The subpoena and the notice that was served says 13 that this deposition will continue from day the 14 notice says from day until completed There has 15 been no agreement that this would only take place for a 16 period of two days 17 In an effort to work out an agreement with the 18 plaintiff we agreed to allow this other deposition to 19 go forward yesterday morning which ended up eating up 20 several hours of time because it did not occur And 21 there was never any agreement that we would adopt the 22 videotape as part of this deposition to my knowledge 23 MR HAYS Not the videotape the transcript of 24 that deposition 25 MS SIEGEL Either one C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 186 MR HAYS understood it Yes there was an agreement as I MR HINKLE Well that is immaterial because that didn't happen Okay So that is not an issue here The thing about it is Judge THE MAGISTRATE Who have I got here MR HINKLE This is Mike Hinkle THE MAGISTRATE You have had Mr. Castleman 10 or Dr. Castleman for a day 11 MR HINKLE Yes 12 THE MAGISTRATE And you are going to have him for 13 the remainder of today until 1:30 or so 14 MR HINKLE Or thereabouts yes 15 THE MAGISTRATE And he is willing to come back 16 tomorrow 17 MS SIEGEL For half a day 18 THE MAGISTRATE Which half are we talking about 19 MS SIEGEL In the morning for two hours from 20 10:00 to 12:00 for three hours 21 MR HAYS 9:00 til 12:00 22 MS SIEGEL I was cut off and there is one other 23 thing I think is very important for you to consider and 24 that is that Dr. Castleman has never testified with 25 regard to talc before And while he may have C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 187 publications that relate to asbestos the area of inquiry regarding his knowledge of talc and the scientific development of the hazards associated with talc is yet defined And it may take us several days to get through that area as did the first deposition relating to asbestos Now he's given depositions in that regard numerous times and the lawyers that represent asbestos defendants here may want to inquire further but the area of inhalation of talc is yet 10 untapped 11 MR HAYS May it please the Court yesterday we 12 requested the talc defendants to go forward early in the 13 deposition Some of them weren't here we knew but 14 some of them were here And in fact the lead counsel 15 yesterday did go into the talc articles for 16 identification but also extended that to things like I 17 believe definitions of talc So there has been 18 some deposition concerning talc They could have 19 continued that and at our request they did do some 20 I suppose but they could have been doing talc all 21 along 22 And we had one -- we had one defendant yesterday 23 say I am not going to be precluded in my examination 24 My examination alone will take eight hours So the 25 fact that we continue this a half a day isn't really C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 188 going to affect their being over here one other night because one of the attorneys said he was going to depose him for eight hours and that is after the lead counsel on asbestos resumes his questioning So they are planning on doing a marathon deposition here and I bet you that if we would give them two more days even they would end up - which we cannot do but they would ask for a contiuance and not complete the deposition based upon what they're 10 saying 11 MR CROSBY Your Honor I am Jim Crosby I 12 represent one of the asbestos producers 13 Just for purposes of letting Your Honor know 14 the witness brought today some items that we had 15 requested dealing with particular companies and some 16 opinions that he has relating to asbestos I have 17 deposed this witness in the past and examined him 18 in the past in courtrooms I have reviewed briefly that 19 box of materials and in that box of materials now are 20 a considerable number of documents and articles and 21 memorandum that I had not seen or heard this witness 22 testify about at any time prior to today So the scope 23 of the deposition is pretty broad and what they 24 tendered this witness for is a broad subject that 25 requires a great deal of discovery C.S.R. ASSOCIATES We allowed the talc people to go in between our examination and plaintiff's counsel has agreed that we can come back But it's an involved and tedious process with lots of documents and lots of medical and scientific literature that takes quite a while to explore MR HAYS May it please the Court this gentleman -- Dr. Castleman has been deposed over 60 times since 1979 and there are transcripts on 10 over 80 trials and his testimony concerns 11 history of knowledge concerning asbestos and talc and 12 to a small degree clay You know they have got the 13 book on the man they have had it for a long time and I 14 just think this is an exercise in using time that should 15 be used otherwise 16 MR HINKLE Your Honor this is Mike Hinkle 17 again I am just going to make one other statement 18 here That this doctor has brought with him 80 or 19 approximately 80 or more articles dealing with talc 20 We have never seen the bulk of these We did not get 21 copies of those until last night about 7:00 and so we 22 have never had an opportunity to review these documents 23 and question this witness about it in the history 24 He's never testified in a talc case So this is 25 the first time that he's ever been placed under oath C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 190 and questioned concerning his expertise in talc and we want to make sure that we get it done this time We have told counsel for the plaintiff that we're going to try to fix it where we don't have to keep running back here and taking additional depositions for every plaintiff So what we're trying to do here is in the talc context and I am not going to speak to asbestos I don't know what all they need to ask him but I do know that we have got an awful lot of articles 10 about talc that nobody here has ever seen before 11 With that I think that it's unfair for the 12 witness to say that I am only going to allot you so much 13 time and then to just break it off even though he's 14 got a subpoena served on him And there was no 15 objection and no notice to us that he was going to 16 bellyache about the amount of time that he was spending 17 MR HAYS Your Honor I sent a letter to 18 Mr. Hinkle telling him we were going to object to the 19 subpoena before we left town and I also filed 20 objections to the subpoena And Dr. Castleman said he 21 didn't have an attorney representing him and then later 22 I asked him if he adopted what I filed in that subpoena 23 and he said yes And I think that subpoena is 24 over broad But we have responded we have given them 25 tons of documents now they are using that as a basis C.S.R. C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 191 for extending the deposition MR HINKLE We're not bellyaching about the items presented What were talking here is about the time that is the issue here MR HAYS So the more we give them the longer it takes And we need some guidance THE MAGISTRATE Why are we cutting this off at half a day tomorrow MR HAYS Sir 10 THE MAGISTRATE Why are we cutting this off 11 at half a day tomorrow 12 MS SIEGEL The testimony from the witness 13 yesterday was that he has other important things to take 14 care of in his life and that is pretty much the reason 15 why 16 THE MAGISTRATE Mr. Hays can you enlighten me 17 any on that 18 MR HAYS I can just -- No sir He just had 19 business plans as I understand it 20 Dr. Castleman can you help me on that 21 THE WITNESS Yes Good morning Your Honor 22 MR HAYS Can you hear Dr. Castleman from there 23 Your Honor 24 THE MAGISTRATE Yes I can 25 MR HAYS Is it all right if he speaks to you C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 192 THE MAGISTRATE Yes MR HAYS Excuse us There is a squad car going by or ambulance It's making a lot of noise here THE WITNESS Your Honor I am going to be going out of the country later next week I have other obligations in other work I am doing I am involved in international work in the field of occupational and environmental health I am also involved in this federal rule making regarding the EPA's proposed band of 10 asbestos consumation of which they plan to announce at 11 this time And I need some time in my life to be able 12 to take care of these and other personal matters as 13 well as business matters before I go away 14 I am going to be out of the country for about 15 four weeks And I really do see that if I -- I made 16 myself available for deposition between now and the time 17 that I am leaving the United States in all likelihood 18 I think that these folks would still be here asking me 19 questions straight through next week about the various 20 documents boxes of documents about 50 pounds worth I 21 think that I have so far brought in most of which has 22 been the subject of repeated discussion in the asbestos 23 litigation over the past ten years 24 The talc stuff is new and I have attempted to 25 respond to questions on that If we can't finish as of gn To | 5 om 1000CTIMha 1000CTIMha 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 21 22 23 24 25 day tomorrow I supposed if you consider it necessary the deposition will just have to be resumed when I get back in the United States in August or in September sometime THE MAGISTRATE Well these cases are set for trial in August and they will go in August MR HAYS No sir These are the January trials THE MAGISTRATE January cases MR HAYS Yes they are the January cases MS SIEGEL But that does put us into our discovery cutoff however MR HINKLE And nobody told us this Judge This is the problem we're having We come in here after all these lawyers traveling a thousand miles and believing that we have got a subpoena that will be binding on the witness and an agreement with plaintiff's counsel that he will be here and after doing all this we find out that we're not going to be able to finish MR HAYS Your Honor as far as that one days time the attorneys did not show up until maybe 12:00 some of the talc attorneys so they did not -- because the video deposition was going to take place MR HINKLE Jim that is not fair MR HAYS So really there is really no loss on C.S.R. C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 194 that from that standpoint MR HINKLE That is not fair I agreed to that as an accommodation to you and it's not fair now for you to use that as some kind of an argument as to why this witness ought to be able to leave MR HAYS No. I am just talking about your extra day extra half day you're talking about Well Your Honor we're sorry to take up your time with this matter but it is something of concern I 10 think we need to have your guidance on it 11 THE MAGISTRATE Well I can go one or two ways 12 here and of course my concern is trying to be fair to 13 all the parties We have Dr. Castleman here who's been 14 listed as an expert witness in this case or in these 15 cases And of course we have a new area as to talc 16 here I think these defendants are entitled to fully 17 examine Dr. Castleman as to the talc area 18 MR HAYS Yes sir 19 THE MAGISTRATE How many lawyers do I have there 20 right now 21 MS SIEGEL Eighteen to 20 22 THE MAGISTRATE Having served a subpoena having 23 20 people travel to -- where are we New York 24 MS SIEGEL Baltimore Maryland 25 THE MAGISTRATE Baltimore and then have the C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 195 witness take off does not sit well certainly to announce this after everyone has arrived It's not the way to proceed MR HAYS I had no notice of it until I got here for the deposition Your Honor and it was reported to them as soon as possible THE MAGISTRATE On the other hand I certainly don't want to be oppressive to any witness including Dr. Castleman 10 MR HINKLE Could I propose a compromise Your 11 Honor 12 THE MAGISTRATE Certainly 13 MR HINKLE One way that we might be able to 14 solve this is if Dr. Castleman wants to break off and 15 leave and the Court thinks that is the way to handle 16 this then the Court can say that he's not going to 17 testify to anything that was not covered in the 18 deposition And if they want to limit us to the amount 19 of time that we're going to take with him and he's going 20 to limit us then it ought to cut both ways they need 21 to be limited too And that seems like a fair way to 22 handle it 23 MR HAYS Well Your Honor I think that would be 24 very fair from the defendant's standpoint that is their 25 clients would be certainly in a wonderful position if f" C4 D ASSOCIATES 196 they could just stop the deposition right now walk away and say he didn't testify to it so therefore he can't present it at trial We're going to present him in trial concerning those matters they are well aware of from the asbestos standpoint and should be aware of from the talc standpoint It surprises me that after two years or close to three years maybe now in litigation that these talc 10 defendants haven't been down to the library to look up 11 some articles which I was able to do last night in 12 couple of hours I picked up five or six of them myself 13 So it surprises me that they don't have these talc 14 articles I just can't buy that frankly But I don't 15 want to be limited in what I present Dr. Castleman 16 on because they choose not to question him in an area 17 tactically 18 THE MAGISTRATE Well that is fine if they chose 19 not to question him in an area But what we're doing 20 here you have got 20 lawyers sitting out there and 21 were not providing the witness for an adequate period 22 of time to be questioned 23 MS SIEGEL Your Honor I think one of the 24 important things to consider here is that this witness 25 is not being ordered to appear in some other C.S.R. ASSOCIATES jurisdiction or by court order or for any other reason other than his own desire to be elsewhere And from that perspective I would urge you to encourage this witness to obey the subpoena to remain here and to let us continue and complete this deposition pursuant to the terms of that subpoena instead of being his own judge in this jurisdiction and allowing himself to come and go as he sees fit MR HAYS Well Your Honor he's not coming and 10 going 11 THE MAGISTRATE The deposition should proceed 12 and the subpoena should be complied with And the 13 deposition should proceed through today and through 14 tomorrow 15 Certainly I would think that by the conclusion 16 of the working day tomorrow the defendants should be 17 finished with this deposition Three days in my 18 estimation should be sufficient to depose any witness 19 and we should terminate this deposition then as of 5:00 20 tomorrow But certainly up through that time 21 Dr. Castleman should remain available and this 22 deposition should proceed and be completed 23 MR HAYS Thank you Your Honor 24 MS SIEGEL Thank you Your Honor 25 THE MAGISTRATE Anything further C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 198 MS SIEGEL No. Appreciate your time THE MAGISTRATE Very well Whereupon the deposition was resumed MR HAYS Dr. Castleman can't be there to represent the poor people MR HOOD I have asked the court reporter to start noting the time so we can show the Court we're ready to start the deposition According to my watch it's 11:40 the judge has ruled and I would like to 10 proceed with the deposition 11 MR HAYS We haven't agreed to go back on the 12 record but I will agree to go back on the 13 record And I want us to have an agreement right now 14 that lead counsel and myself agree when we go on the 15 record and off the record Is that acceptable to 16 everyone 17 MR HOOD If you drop my client from the case it 18 is 19 MR HINKLE Except that there is going to be 20 times when I am not going to be here 21 MR HAYS Well whoever occupies the cat bird's 22 seat as you call it 23 MR WAGNER I think that is reasonable 24 MR HAYS Thank you 25 MR CROSBY Well let me just state for the C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 21 22 23 24 25 record that within certain parameters it's reasonable but there may be times when there may be descending votes on when we go on and off the record and everybody here has the obligation to represent their clients We will continue to try to work with you For example we still have to make our own objections for each of our clients since you would not allow an objection by one defendant to stand for all MR HAYS Are you renewing that request now MR CROSBY Whatever you want to do Mr. Hays but I mean I don't think that I am being unreasonable in light of your position with respect to certain matters MR HAYS I don't believe that we have taken up much time with objections What are they going to do object to lead counsel's questions MR CROSBY I may I certainly wish to reserve that right I am here representing a client MR HAYS Well some people may not agree to do that He's not going to object to his own questions MR CROSBY Let's go to work MR HAYS So you're going to have to object aren't you It doesn't make sense does it MR CROSBY The witness has returned proceed I would think we should do that If we may C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 200 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. By Mr. Hinkle Dr. Castleman when we left off the questioning you had Exhibit 22 in front of you to help you tell us what subcategories of talc we may be talking about A. Yes Q. A. formula What are they Well the mineral talc is defined here by its Q. Well I don't want the formula I want to know what the subcategories of talc are We have talked generally about pure talc and industrial grade talc Are there recognized subcategories within the rubric of talc that we can talk about A. Well I don't know that you can say they are so distinctly recognized As the authors here say Variations in the composition of talc used in industries are extreme And they mention that the talcs involved may contain minerals the most prominent minerals they say which may accompany talc as it occurs in nature are serpentine dolomite and tremolite So those are the three listed here as minerals that may accompany talc as it naturally occurs and which would be present in the talcs that are used in the industry Q. All right Do I understand then that those are the only subcategories of talc that you as an expert recognize A. I don't say they are subcategories of talc I think that that is a misunderstanding That there are C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 201 mineralogical ingredients that are found as well as the hydrous magnesium silicate that mineralogists refer to when they mean pure talc Q. Listen carefully to my question Dr. Castleman I would like to know from you being the expert in this field what are the recognized subcategories of talc that have been dealt with in the medical literature if you can tell me MR HAYS Assuming that there are such categories 10 Q. By Mr. Hinkle If you don't know or don't 11 believe there are such categories you can so state 12 A. I just don't think that the question lends itself 13 to an answer There are all kinds of talcs that are mined in 14 different places they contain various quantities of these 15 other types of materials as well as materials which are 16 perhaps not as prominent in talc deposits 17 Q. Do you know whether or not talcs are 18 subcategorized according to their form do you know 19 A. I really don't know about the jargon of 20 mineralogists and talc vendors in this regard although there 21 may well be different types of grades and standards that have 22 been arrived at in the industry regarding physical properties 23 and constituants of the various talcs that are sold 24 Q. Dr. Castleman you have told us that you are not 25 an expert in mineralogy Is that true C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 202 A. That is true Q. I am not asking you about anything that is outside the area of the expertise that you have claimed in this case You have claimed to be an expert in the development of medical knowledge concerning the hazards of talc right among others A. As reported in the scientific literature yes Q. Now as reported in the scientific literature Dr. Castleman do the authors do the scientists categorize talc according to its form or do you know 10 A. I don't see clear cut categories emerging in the 11 scientific literature although certainly some of the writers 12 do refer to tremolitic talc and there are what you might call 13 categories but it's not clear cut It's not as clear cut for 14 example as the mineralogical varieties of asbestos in the 15 literature on asbestos disease where you are dealing with 16 relatively speaking more pure materials and not mixtures of 17 this kind 18 Q. When you use the term tremolitic talc you are 19 talking about talc that is categorized by reason of its 20 content correct 21 A. Yes 22 Q. My narrow question is Are you aware in the 23 medical literature of any catergorization of talc by virtue of 24 its form 25 A. You mean its morphology C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 203 22003 3 203 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Well morphology is a different question but let's ask that one Are you aware of any subcategorization dealt with in the medical literature concerning different subcategories of talc by reason of its morphology morphology A. In a sense that some of the authors say that fibrous talcs are different in their biologic action or more severe in their biologic action than fibrous talcs This is generally speaking in the more recent literature not in the earliest articles Q. So you recognize a distinction in medical literature between fibrous talc and none fibrous talc A. I recognize that there are different authors who say various things and some of these authors have made distinctions of that kind But it's -- let's not speak of the medical literature as a uniform single body of things It's a diverse collection of things that were put into print over a period of decades and some of the authors made comments of that type and some of them did not Q. And all we can ask you now are the matters that appear in this medical literature and I am not asking for everything that everyone says I want to know what basically we can glean from this body of literature Okay And you tell me now that somewhere some authors deal with a difference between fibrous talc and fibrous talc you have seen that distinction made C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 204 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. In some cases yes Q. Have you seen any other distinction made with regard to subcategories of talc apart from the ones you have told us about A. I don't think so Q. All right A. I mean the things I told you about since you started questioning me yesterday Q. Serpentine dolomite and tremolite are categories based on content and fibrous and fibrous you see as distinctions based on form Would you agree with that A. Yes Again the minerals you have mentioned are things that are present in varying quantities in different types of talcs as it's reported in the literature Q. All right talc A. I hesitate to say that they are different types of But they are -- there are different compositions of industrial talcs that contain varying quantities of those things Q. Doctor all I am asking you now I'm not asking you to take the position as to whether it's true or not true or accurate or not accurate I am just asking you what is in the medical literature A. Fine Q. Now do you recognize any other -- have you seen C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 205 205 205 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 dealt with in the medical literature any other subcategories of talc apart from the ones you have told us A. Nothing comes to mind Q. All right A. There may be other things in here but nothing comes to mind at this time Q. Now are you familiar do you see dealt with in the medical literature any epidemiological studies that relate to the effect of fibrous talc on the lungs A. Yes Q. When that You have an exhibit in front you of What exhibit is A. I am looking at No. 15 Q. Are you telling us Exhibit No. 15 is an epidemiological study dealing with the effects of fibrous talc on the lungs A. Well they use the term tremolitic talc or they mention that talc tremolite is involved but they talk about not just the current study but earlier work Q. Does Exhibit No. 15 -- and incidently identify that for us please A. Report This is a study by Dreessen 1935 Public Health Q. Is that an epidemiological study C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 206 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. It is an epidemiological study Q. What are Dreessen's conclusions with regard to the affects of fibrous talc on the lungs A. He says that Georgia Talc appears to be more injurious than tremolite talc So this is a study that appears to say that talc that doesn't have tremolite that is found in Georgia appears according to the author at this time to be more harmful Q. All right Now are you taking a position Dr. Castleman one way or the other as to whether or not the findings in this article are correct A. No. Q. All right Now does -- Well let me just ask the broad category Are you taking the position that the findings of any of these articles that we have talked about and have made exhibits are you taking a position as to the accuracy of any of these articles A. Well I am not here to testify as to the truth of the matters reported in the articles I am testifying as to the availability of the reports themselves and the logical inferences that might be drawn by someone say in the talc business having access to such reports Q. Now the exhibit that you just told us about indicates that the higher the tremolitic content of talc the less dangerous it is Would that be a reasonable in inference C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 207 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 21 22 23 24 25 from the article you just cited A. This particular article says that Georgia Talc appears to be more injurious than tremolite talc And they say Georgia Talc contains only traces of free silica So I am not sure if they understand or have even a theory as to why they find more problems with Georgia Talc than they found with the stuff they refer to as tremolite talc And I am also not clear and I am not sure that this article makes clear the extent of fibers that were found in the tremolite talc they refer to Q. So this particular article I guess would lead to either confusing inaccurate or incomplete conclusions Would you agree with that A. I think this article would lead to the conclusion that you can develop pneumoconiosis from some types of talc and just what it is in terms of a detailed mechanism of the pneumoconiosis was somewhat obscure at the time that this was reported Q. at all Does this particular article deal with disability A. I don't believe that they found -- Well let me see They did find I believe they did find disability They had eight individuals who had pneumoconiosis grades two and three And I don't see specific discussions of it in terms of disability C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 208 Q. Have you followed the treatment of Dreessen's article in subsequent literature A. literature I have seen it referred to in subsequent Q. Do you know what the subsequent literature says in regard to what Dreessen finds as to disability associated with inhalation of talc A. this You mean what other people inferred from reading 10 Q. Yes Limited to the disability question 11 A. I think that at least one of the articles that I 12 have seen I think one of the articles inferred that there was 13 disability and I think there may have been other articles that 14 inferred that -~ Well I am not sure I don't think that 15 the -- without knowing which article you are referring to it's 16 a little hard to answer the question 17 Q. Okay As we sit here today you are not able to 18 tell us how Dreessen's conclusions have been dealt with by 19 subsequent authors on the question of disability 20 A. I know that this was cited and -- but I don't have 21 a perfect recollection of what each of the subsequent authors 22 said or did not say about Dreessen's report 23 Q. I am not asking for a perfect recollection 24 Dr. Castleman If you can remember in substance what was said 25 that will do C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 209 A. Well I seem to remember one of them saying that he found that there was disability in people with grade two and grade three pneumoconiosis but I could be wrong about that That is just kind of an unusual question asking me what one author had to say about another author's writing But I think that is what somebody said and if pressed at some point today maybe we will see a little bit more about that when we go through these other articles Q. Dr. Castleman isn't that one of the ways that we 10 decide how a particular publication is received in the medical 11 community by seeing what subsequent authors have to say about 12 that 13 A. Yes that's right 14 Q. Are you able to say as you sit here today how 15 Dreessen's article was received by subsequent authors 16 A. I would say that generally it was received as a 17 sign that talc might well cause lung damage 18 Q. Would you agree 19 A. And it was so cited 20 ' Would you agree that it also says that some talcs 21 are more dangerous than others 22 A. It definitely say that There is no question 23 That is explicit and we covered that 24 Q. Do you know which authors have subsequently 25 accepted that point of view C.S.R. ASSOCIATES A. There are plenty of authors here who have said that there seems to be a variability in the extent of disease that is reported I think ever since ~- Q. All I want to know Dr. Castleman is are you able to say which of these authors have accepted the conclusions reached by Dr. Dreessen A. Well what conclusions That there is variability in the extent of damage that the different types of talc may cause to different people 10 Q. Let's start with this that you say that 11 Dr. Dreessen concludes that inhalation of talc can cause 12 disability correct 13 A. Well Dreessen I don't think actually uses that 14 term He says he found grades two and three pneumoconiosis in 15 people that he examined I don't think he characterizes it 16 using the word disability So I am at a loss to tell you 17 something that Dreessen himself didn't say explicitly 18 Q. Let me frame the question this way then In 19 reviewing the article on this Exhibit 15 by Dr. Dreessen does 20 he discuss in any terms whether or not inhalation of talc will 21 result in functional disability 22 A. Well the way I read it he did find functional 23 disability He said There were eight cases-- on Page 138 24 --showing definate symptoms of the disease such as dyspnea 25 cough chest pain rales and other abnormal chest findings S. ASSOCIATES 211 clubbing of the fingers and roentgenologic manifestations of nodular or nodular conglomerate types of fibrosis and more or less diaphragmatic fixation Considering all clinical and roentgenological findings together these eight cases were diagnosed pneumoconiosis two and three Q. And so your reading of this article says Dr. Dreessen concludes that you can in fact suffer some functional impairment by reason of inhalation of talc A. Yes I mean I read those sentences to mean that 10 your lungs have been damaged 11 Q. All right 12 A. And that those are evidence various evidence of 13 lung damage 14 Q. All right Now Dr. Dreessen makes a distinction 15 between Georgia Talc and tremolitic talc right 16 A. Yes he does 17 Q. And he says that Georgia Talc in his view is more 18 dangerous right 19 A. Yes he does 20 Q. Does he says whether or not there is any tremolite 21 in Georgia Talc 22 A. Yes He says there was one referring to the 23 petrographic analysis on Page 142 he says Georgia Talc 24 contains only traces of free silica And then it goes on to 25 say The amount of tremolite about ten percent found by C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 212 petrographic analysis averaged fourth the amount reported in the previous study And previous was a study of what he calls tremolite talc So this apparently also has tremolite in it but it has less tremolite than Georgia Talc Q. All right So Dr. Dreessen says that a talc with only traces of free silica and less tremolite is nevertheless more injurious to the lungs than talc that has a higher quantity of tremolite That is what he suggests in this article true 10 A. Yes that's correct 11 Q. Do you agree or disagree with that Or do you 12 have a position on that 13 A. All I can say is that is what he reported and 14 this was an early stage in the development of knowledge about 15 talc It was the first time really in the 30s that the 16 authorities in Great Britain and in the United States were 17 starting to take a look at significant numbers of talc exposed 18 workers and looking for lung disease 19 Q. Do you remember my question Dr. Castleman 20 A. Well I can't say that I -- He reports the 21 findings that he had 22 Q. Do you remember the question that I posed to you 23 Dr. Castleman 24 A. I believe your question was do I agree that 25 tremolitic talc is as Dreessen said less harmful than the C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 213 other type of talc Q. Yes Do you agree or disagree with Dr. Dreessen's conclusions or do you have a position A. I think other people have subsequently reported that tremolitic talc caused more problems Not just with respect to fibrosis of the lungs but also with respect to cancer but that was not reported for a number of years afterward So it certainly is a mixed picture of the literature as people try to sort out just what it was about 10 these industrial talcs that was of greatest concern 11 Q. Do you recall the question that I posed 12 Dr. Castleman 13 A. I can't disagree with Dreessen's objective report 14 of his own findings 15 Q. Thank you 16 A. And at the same time I have to acknowledge that 17 it seems to be at odds with the subsequent reports that other 18 people wrote on basis of their findings 19 Q. I am not asking about anybody else in the world 20 but Dr. Castleman And I want to know does Dr. Castleman 21 agree disagree or are you neutral with regard to 22 Dr. Dreessen's findings 23 A. I can only conclude that Dreessen is truly 24 reporting what he found and believed to be the case at the time 25 he conducted his study C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 214 Q. I am asking about his conclusions the conclusions that he draws A. I think that the conclusions that he draws are not consistant with modern thinking on the subject of tremolitic or particularly fibrous talcs compared to fibrous talcs Q. Dr. Castleman I am not asking about anybody else's thinking I am not asking about modern thinking asking about Dr. Castleman's thinking And how does Dr. I am Castleman line up with Dr. Dreessen's conclusions Do you 10 agree with him Do you disagree with him Or do you have no 11 opinion That's all I want to know 12 A. I just don't know how to answer that question 13 Q. Well I could give some suggestions You can say 14 yes I agree with him you can say no I don't agree with him 15 or you can say I don't have a position on that 16 A. Dreessen was probably as competent as anybody who 17 worked for the U.S. Government in the area of pneumoconiosis 18 research in the 1930s And I don't doubt that Dreessen found 19 what he reported 20 Q. I am not asking -- 21 A. At the same time subsequent authors have written 22 different things 23 Dreessen doesn't say anything about the percent of 24 fibers that were in what he calls tremolitic and less tremolitic talc And so there is missing information here C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 215 215 215 which it's easy to see in the light of more recent knowledge that Dreessen hadn't quite focused in on There are just -there is incomplete information on the basis of which for me to give you a simple answer much as I might like to give you a simple answer to your question Q. Dr. Castleman I am entitled to an answer to that question A. You are entitled to the best answer I can give you and I am trying to give you that 10 Q. Well I think that that question can be answered 11 with yes I do agree with Dr. Dreessen's conclusions no I do 12 not agree with Dr. Dreessen's conclusions or I have no 13 position in regard to Dr. Dreessen's conclusions I'm entitled 14 to one of those answers 15 MR HAYS He can also say I don't know 16 MR HINKLE He can say I don't know I'll accept 17 that Do you know whether you agree with him or not 18 MR HAYS Or you can say I agree in part 19 MR HINKLE That will be fine And we'll go down 20 the list and find out what you agree with and don't 21 agree with 22 MR HAYS Or he can give you his best answer 23 and say that is the best I can give you 24 Q. By Mr. Hinkle Well just answer the question 25 for me if you would Dr. Castleman C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 216 A. I have I really have I am not trying to be evasive It's just that the question doesn't lend itself to a simple answer Q. I am going to pose this question to you Dr. Castleman and I'm going to expect an answer And I want you to know that if you do not answer this question that we are going to seek to get the aid of the court in regard to this because it's something that we are entitled to have And the question is this Having now reviewed Dr. Dreessen's 10 conclusions do you Dr. Castleman agree with his conclusions 11 Do you disagree with his conclusions Do you agree in part 12 Or do you have no position Where do you stand in regard to 13 Dr. Dreessen's conclusions 14 A. Well I agree that he found what he reported that 15 he found And there appears to be incomplete information on 16 the basis of which one might agree or not agree with the kinds 17 of statements he made 18 Q. So I take it then that you are saying that you are 19 in no position to agree or disagree either way correct 20 MR HAYS You are talking about with regard 21 to any statement made in there as to the notice or 22 talking about talc 23 Q. By Mr. Hinkle I am just talking about the 24 conclusions I have tried with all my heart to limit these 25 questions to the conclusions C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 2171 A. You mean whether Georgia Talc is more injurious than tremolite talc That is the conclusion Q. All right I'll go along with that Would you agree with that conclusion Or not agree with it Or you have no position on it A. I am not positive but I think subsequent events have shown tremolite talc at least of the kind that is found in up state New York is more harmful than the Georgia Talc but I am not positive about that Again it's because of the 10 types of terminology he uses here it's difficult to give you a 11 simple answer I don't know what he had in his mind when he 12 used these terms and I don't know the extent of the fibers 13 that were found in the different types of talc that he was 14 referring to 15 Q. Dr. Castleman I did not ask you a word about 16 subsequent findings 17 A. You asked me whether I agree with it 18 Q. Right Do you agree or not agree 19 A. My agreement would be based on what I know not 20 just what Dreessen reported I can't put myself back in 1935 21 If I did I would agree with everything Dreessen said because 22 I wouldn't have any basis for disagreeing 23 Q. Dr. Castleman whatever you need to think about to 24 tell us how you stand is fine with me But I have been asking 25 you for the last ten or 15 minutes to take a position with C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 218 regard to Dr. Dreessen's conclusions A. If I read this in 1935 I would have no reason but to agree with it Q. And anyone else -- A. Dreessen was an authority at this time in the United States Q. Would you agree that anyone else reading Dr. Dreessen's article in 1935 would have every reason in the world to believe that that was true 10 A. Sure 11 Q. All right How many people did Dreessen -- what 12 was the population for his study by the way 13 A. I believe there were 32 people that he examined in 14 this study 15 Q. Is that sufficient to qualify as an 16 epidemiological study 17 A. Yes in my mind yes 18 Q. Are there guidelines in the medical community with 19 regard to the numbers which will qualify as an epidemiological 20 study 21 A. Not that I am aware of 22 Q. All right What industry were these -- 23 A. I am sorry Thirty men and four women were 24 employed at the time and so there may have been 36 people 25 examined C.S. ASSOCIATES 212 212 212 Q. What trade were they involved in A. They worked in mines and mills Q. What kind of mines and mills A. Talc mines and mills Q. I think you told us earlier there is no discussion at all with regard to the concentrations of exposure correct A. In this study I think there were some comments on the concentrations Q. What were they 10 A. am sorry They at least conducted physical 11 examinations of 66 talc workers and former talc workers Just 12 by way of correcting the numbers 13 Q. Fine 14 A. The exposures they have divided into three classes 15 in terms of how many millions of particles of dust per cubic 16 foot of air 17 Q. How many millions of particles of dust per cubic 18 foot of air was the least exposure to Dr. Dreessen's subjects 19 A. Seventeen million 20 Q. So all of those subjects were exposed to 17 plus 21 million particles of talc per cubic foot in their work 22 environment right 23 A. Well the lowest exposed group was exposed to an 24 average of 17 million so some of them would have been exposed 25 to less some of them would have been exposed to more And in C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 220 the other two groups they would have all been exposed the more than 17 million Q. All right Are you aware of any industry anywhere in the United States from the 1940s on where anybody was exposed to talc in concentrations of 17 million plus particles per cubic foot A. I think some of these other reports make reference to exposures that high and higher Q. We will get to those in a minute 10 A. That is not a real high concentration of dust 11 Q. Seventeen million particles per cubic foot is not 12 a very high concentration 13 A. Well it's not an unusually high concentration 14 when one talks about industrial environments in the 1930s and 15 dusts generally speaking Although it would have been regarded 16 as an alarmingly high concentration for dusts such as silicas 17 and asbestos even in the 1930s it was certainly well within 18 the range of what has been reported as occurring even in the 19 case of asbestos and silica dusts at that time 20 Q. Is it your testimony then that in the 30s and 21 40s concentrations of 17 million particles per cubic foot were 22 regarded as safe in talc workers 23 A. No. I'm just saying that in industries and your 24 question was I think your question went to the issue Wasn't 25 this extraordinarily high concentrations of dust for industrial C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 221 221 221 workers and I am trying to put it in context There were plenty of workers exposed to concentrations of different dusts some of which were recognized as fibrogenic at the time in the 1930s which far exceeded 17 million particles per cubic foot Q. When is the last time that you can think of that there are any documented exposures of levels that high 17 million plus particles per cubic foot when did that come to a stop A. I think that sort of thing may still occur With 10 regard to what kinds of dust are you asking the question 11 Q. Well we have been talking about talc 12 A. I don't really know what kinds of exposures are 13 found in modern times in terms of exposures in workplaces where 14 talc is used 15 Q. Is the dust in workplaces regulated now 16 A. Some dust is 17 Q. And is talc dust regulated 18 A. I believe talc dust that contains asbestos fibers 19 is regulated I don't know whether talc dust itself is 20 regulated or not 21 Q. Do you know whether or not there are any 22 guidelines with regard to what we call nuisance dust 23 A. Yes It would presumably be covered under that 24 category if it's not covered under any other category 25 Q. Well what are the regulations with regard to C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 222 concentrations of nuisance dust A. I don't know off the top of my head I just don't know I have seen numbers like 50 million particles per cubic foot I don't know whether lower levels are accepted or agreed upon in the general nuisance dust Q. As you sit here today are you aware of whether or not there are regulations dealing with the concentrations of talc dust in the work environment do you know A. I don't know there are explicit regulations 10 Q. When they talk about tremolitic talc in the 11 Dreessen article give us your working definition of tremolitic 12 talc 13 A. In Dr. Dreessen's case he said the tremolite talc 14 the stuff he didn't call tremolitic talc the Georgia Talc had 15 about ten percent of tremolite by petrographic analysis and 16 the stuff he did call tremolitic talc was four times that 17 Q. Forty percent then 18 A. One would have to conclude about 40 percent 19 tremolite was found in the stuff that Dreessen was referring to 20 when he said tremolitic talc in this 1935 study 21 Q. Are you aware of any subcategorization of 22 tremolitic fibers by form 23 A. I have seen literature relating to literature and 24 other kinds of -- well publicity relating to the controversy 25 of what is a fiber what is a cleavage fragment and what's C.S.R. ASSOCIATES neither of the above with regard to tremolite So I understand that there is a range of morphology involved with the materials generally classified as tremolite Q. You say that it's been classified by some as fibrous versus what A. Well I understand that there are different types different forms different shapes if you will of tremolite and that some tremolite is regarded as fiber shaped in similar way that other asbestiform minerals are fiber shaped 10 long thin fibers There are other particles of tremolite which 11 are -- may have an aspect ratio of three or five to one which 12 could be viewed as fibers under such things as the asbestos 13 standards that OSHA has or other people might argue And 14 certainly I think the Vanderbilt Talc Company argues that these 15 kinds of things are not asbestos shouldn't be in any way 16 covered by any standards relating to asbestos and that they 17 are not in the same category as far as the health hazards they 18 may pose 19 Q. Do you have a position on that one way or the 20 other 21 A. My position is that unless these fiber shaped 22 particles can be shown to be less harmful than comparable or 23 unless a real strong case can be made that there really is a 24 difference in the harmfulness or lack of harmfulness posed by 25 these materials but they have to be presumed equally harmful C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 224 Q. Do you know whether or not the tremolitic content in the Georgia Talc in Dreessen's article was identical to the tremolitic content in the talc he described as tremolitic A. Well I thought I made it clear that he refers to two types of talc one of which had ten percent tremolite and one of which had about four times that and he calls the latter he calls that tremolite talc Q. Listen carefully to my question Do you know whether or not the tremolite the ten percent tremolite in the 10 Georgia Talc is identical to the 40 percent tremolite in the 11 talc he calls tremolitic do you know 12 A. No I don't 13 Q. All right 14 A. In terms of the morphology for example the 15 amount of fibers that might be found no I don't know 16 Q. What other epidemiological studies have you seen 17 that deal with the possible hazards of inhalation of fibrous 18 talc 19 A. Fibrous talc 20 Q. Yes sir that was the question 21 MR HAYS Mike we might interject here that 22 it's 12:28 Did you want to stop for lunch 23 MR HINKLE No we can't stop for lunch We need 24 to press right on and do as much as we can We will eat 25 whenever he has to leave C.S.R. ASSOCIATES MR HAYS I think we're entitled to a lunch break THE WITNESS I have been instructed by the judge to stay here today so I am not going to be able to go to Washington MR HAYS He's not going to Washington We're here for the rest of the day and tomorrow from 9:00 to 5:00 You didn't hear that MR HINKLE I possibly misunderstood That is a 10 pleasant surprise to me if I have That being the 11 case then probably if everyone agrees -- 12 MR HOOD Why don't we get a sandwich brought in 13 for the witness 14 MR HAYS Why don't we just take a 45 minute 15 break 16 MR HOOD The problem we found yesterday it's 17 so hard to find a place to serve us quick The only 18 person that needs to be taken care of is the witness 19 and if he will tell us what he wants we'll take a 20 recess -- 21 MR HAYS Well you're not going to control his 22 eating habits I assure you We're taking a 45 minute 23 break If you want to call the magistrate on it because 24 you feel some how it impedes your time we'll do that 25 but we're going to take a 45 minute break And I C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 226 am going to get some things copied for Corning so I'm going to be working during this break you understand understand MS SIEGEL Can we return at 1:00 MR HAYS That is fine MR CROSBY That's a little less that 45 minutes by my watch MR HAYS Yes let's say 1:15 and we will start exactly at 1:15 Everybody will be here if they are 10 not here start anyway 11 MR CROSBY Are you going to copy the OCF file 12 for us 13 MR HAYS That is what I am taking to be copied 14 I don't know how long it's going to take because I 15 haven't seen the file 16 MR CROSBY We're just going to use the OCF file 17 itself And the OI is not much you might take both of 18 those And Kinko's can copy the rest of them we will 19 have enough to ask questions with today if we need them 20 until Kinko's gets the rest of it back 21 MR HAYS Just so it's understood I am 22 anticipating a continuance because the documents aren't 23 available and if we can use the originals for 24 questioning we don't need to use the copies So if 25 the copies are gone I want to talk to the magistrate if C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES -227 we're going to use that as a basis for some sort of continuance MR CROSBY Not planning on doing it We have made arrangements with a copying company they will stay open tonight and copy these documents so we will have them back in the morning and if we have the OI and the OCF files in the event we have questions this afternoon that will take us to 5:00 and as I understand it we're adjourning at 5:00 is that right 10 MR HAYS Adjourning at 5:00 and the magistrate 11 ordered this deposition to conclude tomorrow at 5:00 12 MR CROSBY We will undertake to do precisely 13 that Mr. Hays And I appreciate your assistance 14 Whereupon a lunch break was taken 15 MR CROSBY Can we let the record reflect that 16 we have just turned the documents that were Exhibits 86 17 to Kinko's Copy Service and they will return those 18 documents to us in the morning at 9:00 original and two 19 copies And Mr. Hays has the OI and OCF files getting 20 them copied somewhere and they will be back we hope 223 this afternoon 22 MR HAYS Let the record reflect that we have 23 had some conferences concerning the copying of the 24 documents and I have asserted that if there is a 25 question in any one's mind about having the copies back CSR CSR ASSOCIATES 228 that the originals be retained for the purposes of questioning the witness and then that they be copied at a later time We do not want the copying to be a basis of a continuance and we asserted that before the documents were delivered to Kinko's and I have been assured that is not going to be a problem That's my position MR CROSBY We have been assured by Kinko's that they'll be here at 9:00 and assuming they don't have 10 problems we will go forward at 9:00 One of the 11 attorneys who is an officer of this court Mr. Goss 12 offered to have the copies made and returned here this 13 afternoon but plaintiff refused so we have had no 14 choice but to have Kinko's do it And to expedite 15 matters in order to try to comply with the Court's 16 request we adjourn tomorrow at 5:00 we're going through 17 Kinko's 18 MR HAYS Just to make it absolutely clear 19 there is no prohibition from using the original 20 documents to do your questioning Copies are not 21 necessary for you to continue your questioning at any 22 time And so we did not agree to have the defendant 23 Vermont Talc copy these documents we think that is 24 probably not a good procedure and we agreed to work 25 with you in any way to get the copying expedited and C.S.R C.S.R .. ASSOCIATES 229 229 229 Kinko's has got it and it looks like they are going to be here tomorrow and all this discussion may be moot MR CROSBY We hope it is Counsel just so you'll know several lawyers are here for several companies and often I would need some of the files to question the witness that they would need so that they would be prepared And that is why the copies are necessary and hopefully to expedite I suggest we go ahead 10 Q. By Mr. Hinkle Dr. Castleman let me ask you if 11 you would please to summarize the opinions that you intend to 12 offer in the trial of these Oklahoma Tire Worker cases 13 A. With respect to talc 14 Q. That would be fine 15 A. The opinions I will offer are that there is a body 16 of literature to the effect that inhalation of talc as well as 17 other types of exposures to talc in which people get talc 18 inside -- in their bodies but primarily by the route of 19 inhalation that this body of literature is extensive That 20 this body of literature was in large part published in the 21 English language That a lot of this information was published 22 in the United States And that this body of literature 23 primarily dating from the 1930s forward indicates that people 24 breathing the dust of materials generally identified as talc in 25 the industry had sustained lung damage of various kinds Cf oe P ASSOCIATES 230 And reports are -- have a wide range of the extent of damage reported from relatively minimal damage to total disability and death And that a manufacturer or a seller of industrial talcs a seller of talc that was mined and sold in the channels of commerce should in my opinion have known that talc was a suspect at least a suspect cause of lung disease if not a proven cause of lung disease certainly a very strongly suspect cause of lung damage by the 1950s if not earlier And should have taken appropriate steps and perhaps this goes 10 beyond the type of opinion I would be called upon to render in 11 a court but that such a manufacturer or seller should have 12 taken appropriate steps to both test and inspect the product 13 for potential hazards through animal studies for example as 14 well as through medical monitoring of their employees and that 15 such vendors should also have provided some warning to the 16 users of the talc that they were putting into the channels of 17 commerce where it would be used in industries such as the 18 rubber industry where cases of disease have been reported since 19 the 1930s 20 Q. You are not an expert on warnings I take it 21 A. Well I haven't made any special studies I 22 suppose that would qualify me as an expert on warnings but I 23 think that when I say a warning that the warning should be 24 based on what is known about the hazards of the product and 25 couched in language that will be understandable to people who rf fF Ff ASCOTAASCOTAMRaM ASCR OTAa MRa 231 231 231 were using the product who don't necessarily have any advanced education or training Q. I mean in terms of your qualifications your own you are not trained in the area of warning design or warning communication are you A. No I am not Q. And you haven't had any experience in the design of warnings A. No I haven't 10 11 A. Although I have advocated the use of warnings on 12 various products which did not carry warnings no I haven't 13 been involved in the intricacies of how such warnings might be 14 designed 15 Q. Have you done any studies or done any training or 16 had any experience in the question of efficiency or efficacy of 17 warnings 18 A. No. 19 Q. I asked you earlier today to tell us about 20 epidemiological studies relating to the possible health hazards 21 of fibrous talc and you referred me to Exhibit 15 22 Dreessen's article 23 A. Well yes to the extent that they talk about a 24 tremolitic talc and with the understanding that they did not 25 use designations like fibrous in regard to the tremolite in the f C4 ASSOCIATES 232 talc Q. Do you read Dr. Dreessen's article as an article dealing with the possible health hazards of exposure to fibrous talc A. It's just hard to say I mean he doesn't say whether it's fibrous or not And so it's hard for me to go further than the author himself does categorizing materials with regard to whether or not they contain fibers He does says they contain tremolite one can infer from this that there 10 could well and probably was some fiber in it but Dreessen 11 himself doesn't provide that information 12 Q. Again I am interested in what you as a 13 bibliographer glean from a reading of this article When I am 14 asking you whether or not you read this as an authority on 15 the -- as an authority on the possible health hazards of 16 exposure to fibrous talc you can say that you read it that way 17 or you don't read it that way or you have no opinion about it 18 A. I just feel that the article itself provides 19 insufficient information on the basis of which to give you an 20 answer as to how I would read it 21 Q. You don't know whether it does or not deal with 22 fibrous talc 23 A. I don't know the extent to which fibers were 24 present in the talc involved because the authors themselves do 25 not refer to it fr erp ASSOCIATES 233 Q. Do you know whether any fibers were involved A. I don't know for sure Q. Then I want you to listen carefully to the question that I posed to you earlier and I am going to pose again In the studies that you have before you or in your review of any materials have you seen any epidemiological studies which indicate that there are health hazards associated with exposure to fibrous talc A. Let's get to the next one 10 Q. Well let's get to the first one Evidently you 11 are not satisfied that Exhibit 15 falls within that category 12 true 13 A. It may or may not But it's not absolutely clear 14 from the article The next article -- 15 Q. Just a minute before we go on What I want you 16 to tell me about is whether or not in the articles that you 17 have reviewed you find an epidemiological study which relates 18 to dangers allegedly occurring as a result of exposure to 19 fibrous talc Just tell me whether there are any in there or 20 not 21 A. Well I know there are by the time we get to the 22 New York State studies of Kleinfeld and his workers 23 Q. What I want you to do now is thumb through those 24 and find me the earliest epidemiological study there that 25 relates to the alleged hazards associated with exposure to C.S.R. C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 234 fibrous talc A. First this study clearly does deal with that and it is an epidemiological study 2 Which study please A. Number 24 Q. Exhibit No. 24 A. 1943 This is an article of Siegal and his workers in Q. Now what leads you to believe that that 10 particular article deals with the alleged hazards associated 11 with exposure to fibrous talc 12 A. Under the type of talc involved on Page 15 it says 13 that The type of talc produced in St. Lawrence County is of 14 the fibrous variety known as abestine With it is found 15 tremolite a similar appearing material occurring in a fibrous 16 or asbestiform state which in the course of time changes over 17 to talc So the article states 18 There is also a picture on Page 16 which Figure 1 19 Tremolite Talc Bundle Like Arrangement of Fibers is the 20 caption And there are other pictures describing needle 21 fibers on that page And so I think it's very clear here that 22 we are dealing with a fibrous talc 23 The fact that it is an epidemiological study is derived 24 from the fact that they have examined a defined population in 25 this case 221 tremolite talc miners and millers And they 235 235 235 found disease in these people including advanced fibrosis in 32 men giving an incidence of 14 and a half percent according to the conclusion No. 4 in summary on Page 28 They further state that this tremolite talc is capable like asbestos they say of causing a disabling pneumoconiosis that is under the heading Conclusions on Page 28. So here we have an epidemiological study implicating fibrous talc as a cause of very serious lung disease Q. The population was 221 workers is that right 10 A. That is what is discussed in Summary No. 4 yes 11 Q. What was the level of concentration of exposure 12 A. Dust counts are reported under No. 3 on Page 28 as 13 ranging from six to five thousand million particles per cubic 14 foot in mining and in milling from 20 to 250 million particles 15 per cubic foot 16 2 So the least concentrated exposure appears to be 17 20 million particles per cubic foot correct 18 A. Six million 19 Q. Look at that again if you would please 20 A. I am looking at it 21 0 Do you know whether that is six or 6,000 million 22 A. I read it as saying six million particles per 23 cubic foot 5,000 million particles per cubic foot or five 24 billion particles per cubic foot 25 Q. Would you agree with me that that might also be ee 3000GTIMRA 3000GTIMRA 3000GTIMRA 236 six billion particles A. It reads to me as six million The literal text is Dust counts in mining range from six to 5,000 million particles per cubic foot I think it's pretty clear The lowest count involved are six million particles per cubic foot Q. So you are pretty satisfied that that is six particles per cubic foot A. No six million particles per cubic foot Q. All right So you are satisfied that's six 10 million particles per cubic foot 11 A. That is right 12 Q. Do you agree with the findings and conclusions a 13 set forth in Mr. Siegal's Ms. Smith's and Mr. Greenburg's 14 article that we have been discussing which is Exhibit No. 24 15 A. I see no reason to doubt their conclusions if 16 that is what you mean 17 Q. And you have I take it reviewed their review of 18 the literature concerning talc in the body of the article 19 A. I have looked at it yes 20 0 Do you agree with their review of the literature 21 as it relates to talc which is contained in the body of the 22 article 23 A. I don't really know in every single detail whether 24 what they are reporting as being in the literature is exactly 25 true They make reference to articles about talc and in some we re accoCTIOne accoCTIOne cases about other things which in some cases I think I may not have even seen They make reference to an article for example Reference 19 which appears in a German publication and it is about talc But I haven't actually seen that article so I don't really know and I haven't seen certainly the English translation of it So I don't really know for a fact that their accounts of what that 1938 or '39 article contains is correct But generally what I do see here comports with what I understand the articles they cite to say 10 Q. Do you have any reason to quarrel with -- do you 11 have any reason to suspect that these authors would in any way 12 misstate any of the facts that they have set out in the 13 subtitle body under the subtitle review of literature on the 14 effects of talc dust 15 A. I don't have any reason to expect that they would 16 have shaded things one way or the other I would assume that 17 these people approached this -- they were state and government 18 officials that the State Health Department in New York at 19 least one of them Greenburg I have heard of and you know so 20 I have no reason to question the scientific quality of the 21 report or its reference to earlier literature 22 Q. So the answer to my question then is no you have 23 no reason to believe that they would have misstated anything in 24 there Is that true 25 A. Yes But I mean these things can happen but I C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 238 have no reason to believe that it was done intentionally or that it was done out of incompetence based on what I can see they did write Q. What other epidemiological studies have you reviewed which indicate or which deal with the possible health hazards of exposure to fibrous talc A. I just put aside the report of Parmeggiani an I Italian journal No. 33 because it would take me a little bit of time to try and pour through that and see what the Italian 10 talc whether it was a fibrous talc et cetera 11 Q. You are not you wouldn't say that an Italian 12 medical journal would be something necessarily that American 13 talc manufacturers would be on notice of would you 14 A. Not necessarily but possible 15 Q. All right Go ahead Tell me - 16 A. The Italian literature is cited in the U.S. 17 literature 18 Q. Tell me if you would please the next 19 epidemiological study that you can find that deals with the 20 possible health hazards of exposure to fibrous talc 21 A. You are still asking for an epidemiological study 22 Q. Yes sir We will talk about the other types of 23 studies in a little while 24 A. I supposed the next one is Exhibit 49. This is an 25 article by Kleinfeld and his workers in New York State ft i. a.% 1000ATANna 1000ATANna 1000ATANn1000aATANna again published in 1955 in the AMA Archives of Industrial Health Q. Exhibit 49 A. Yes That is the next one Do you have any questions about it Q. exhibit Yes I do Did you give me the date on that - A. 1955 Q. All right And what was the type of talc dealt 10 with 11 A. This is the New York State talc the fibrous talc 12 that Siegal and workers had described And this is a 13 follow study on some of the people that they had examined 14 Q. How many people were involved in that study 15 Excuse me How many subjects were in that study 16 A. Thirty patients Nineteen had died by the 17 time of follow And four of those causes of death was 18 believed to be due to pulmonary failure associated with talc 19 pneumoconiosis according to Page 66 20 Q. Did you tell me the type of fiber again that was 21 involved the type of talc 22 A. Tremolitic talc which had been described earlier 23 by Siegal and workers according the these authors 24 Q. What were the conclusions in that article 25 A. Well they are reported -- they are called summary ,R ASSOCIATES 240 and conclusion and it's more just an accounting of the findings than any conclusive statements Q. May I see the exhibit please A. Sure Q. Do they not observe in Exhibit No. 49 that there are improvements being made in the workplace which reduce the exposure to talc A. They did so report They report that in the 1940s between 1943 and 1948 the talc mines and mill operators had 10 instituted corrective measures and the corrective measure are 11 at least in general terms enumerated on Page 66 Measures which 12 were taken to reduce the dust concentrations in workers exposed 13 to the dust in the mining and milling of this material 14 Q. And do they appear to be successful to some 15 degree the efforts being made 16 A. Yes they do 17 Q. What is the next epidemiological study And 18 before we go to that you might tell us Dr. Castleman what is 19 your definition of an epidemiological study 20 A. In this context it's a study of a defined 21 population of people at risk and the morbidity or the 22 mortality of that group sometimes with reference to a 23 controlled group sometimes not 24 Q. Tell us the next epidemiological study please 25 And with this limitation the next epidemiological study C.S.R. C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 241 241 | dealing with possible health hazards associated with exposure to fibrous talc A. I think the next one would be the report in the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists Q. Would you give us an exhibit number please A. 58 this is 1959. This appears to be from the ACGIH annual meeting in 1959 and the authors are the same folks from the New York Department of Labor Messite and Kleinfeld and one other individual 10 Q. All right What type of talc were they dealing 11 with 12 A. Same stuff The New York State fibrous talc 13 Q. Tremolitic talc 14 A. Yes 15 Q. How many subjects were there in that study 16 A. Well the St. Lawrence County overall in two 17 counties they looked at 97 people and the St. Lawrence County 18 I know we were dealing with fibrous talc at least that is my 19 recollection from the earlier reports 20 Q. What were their conclusions in that article 21 A. Well at one point they say on Page 70 that The 22 wet method of drilling may in time eliminate the problem of 23 disabling pneumoconiosis in these talc miners They also go 24 on to say the absence of pulmonary fibrosis in miners of the 25 Lewis County where a natural form of dust suppression has been C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 242 provided by the wetness of the rock tends to support this belief Summary and conclusions on Page 71 says Although the incidence of pulmonary talcosis in the miners has not changed appreciably the severity and the progression of the disease has been diminished The reduction in the dust exposure in the mines has a lower incidence of pulmonary fibrosis among the talc miners is primarily due to the institution of wet drilling 10 Q. This adds again I take it support to the earlier 11 conclusion that improvements in the mining and milling process 12 are reducing the dangers associated with inhalation of talc 13 A. Well reducing the amount inhaled and therefore 14 extent of the hazard that workers face 15 Q. As a matter of fact they suggest there that with 16 the advent of wet drilling they might eliminate talc 17 pneumoconiosis all together 18 A. I read their exact language I am not sure that 19 that is a perfectly correct characterization But anyway 20 whatever they said is in the record 21 Q. How does what they said differ from my statement 22 A. I suppose your characterization is reasonable 23 looking at it again 24 Q. Now do you agree or do you disagree with the 25 conclusions reached by the authors of Exhibit No. 58 C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 243 243 243 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 22 22 23 24 25 A. I think that I can agree with their -- I think I would agree with their conclusions Q. All right What is the next article that you find that deals with an epidemiological study related to the possible health hazards associated with exposure to fibrous talc A. -- guess We have gotten a few more articles today I Q. Excuse me Before you go on are these the articles that we have already marked or are these something we haven't seen before A. These were marked this morning I just wanted to see if any of them -- this particular group is not a marked set but you know the ones I mean about half a dozen of them that Mr. Hays brought in Q. Let's get them in front of you sure that we cover all this I want to make A. I am trying to keep the chronology straight that's why this looks like this The last one I said was 1959 I was just about to mention one in 1964 Q. Exhibit number please A. That was No. 61. Let's go back in time to 1959 if you think that would make more sense if you agree Q. I am perfectly satisfied with a chronological order What is the next one in chronological order C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 244 A. That appears to be another study by 1 Q. Exhibit number please A. 92 Q. This is one that you really haven't had a chance to look at until just this moment Is that true A. That is about right But this is another study another report I should say on the New York State of talc mining mill workers in St. Lawrence County - Q. Again this is a tremolitic talc 10 A. Yes 11 Q. Who were the authors of that article 12 A. Kleinfeld Messite and Readen Messite is the 13 first author 14 Q. Do the authors modify the conclusions that they 15 reached in that earlier 1959 study 16 A. No. I think this is another report in another 17 journal about basically the same material same data base 18 Q. All right So that would have been the 32 talc 19 mine workers that we discussed earlier in Exhibit 49 20 A. Yes And this is -- I mean it seems to me the 21 main finding here is that they are keying in on fibrous or 22 tremolitic talc as the more pathogenic in comparison with what 23 they call a fibrous variety of talc in another region of 24 New York State 25 Q. Do they make any statements at all about the C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 245 alleged danger of exposure to fibrous talc A. They say that the incidence and severity of the talc pneumoconiosis was considerably less where the exposure was to the fibrous variety And I believe elsewhere in the article they indicate that the concentrations of dust counts were comparable Q. Do they talk about the constitution of the fibrous variety of talc A. I don't see anything on that The authors of this 10 article are all physicians and I don't think that they had -- 11 they talk about microscopic appearance the presence or absence 12 of fibers but -- 13 Q. Do they talk about any of the mineralogical 14 components of this fibrous talc that they compare 15 A. I don't think so Not in this article I don't 16 think they do 17 Q. What is the next epidemiological study that you 18 find that relates to the alleged or possible health hazards 19 related to the exposure to fibrous talc 20 A. I don't think that No. 97 qualifies as an 21 epidemiological study 22 Q. All I want to know now you don't need to tell me 23 which ones are not I want to know which ones are 24 A. Yes 25 Q. Dr. Castleman I don't mean to rush you but as C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 246 you know we're on kind of a tight time schedule and you have been taking a good deal of time from article to article to look through and read So in order for us to keep with the time table set up by the Court I am going to ask you to hasten your review if you can A. I am hastening it as much as I can And we are almost through There won't be many more I think basically dealing with the reports of Kleinfeld and workers again and again whether each report constitutes an epidemiological study 10 is what's problematic If you want me to skip Kleinfeld -- 11 Q. No. I want you to tell us about every 12 epidemiological study that you have reviewed that deals with 13 the possible health hazards of exposure to fibrous talc 14 A. I suppose this would qualify as an epidemiological 15 study also This is from the Journal of Occupational Medicine 16 No. 62 published in 1965 by Kleinfeld 17 Q. What's the exhibit please 18 A. 62 published by Kleinfeld and workers And 19 here they report on having examined 16 workers 22 Q. What's the date please 22 A. 1965 22 Q. How many workers 23 A. Sixteen 24 Q. What was their trade 25 A. They were engaged in milling of talc for more than oe C2 D 1800TATOa 1800TATOa 247 247 247 ten years Q. What was the talc to which they were exposed A. I believe this is the same stuff we have been talking about the St. Lawrence County tremolitic talc Q. Any other kinds of talc A. I don't believe so It says on Page 15 Talc dust to which these individuals were exposed was predominately talc as mixed with tremolite anthophyllite serpentine and small amounts of free silica All the talc workers had a 10 weighted average exposure to talc dust above 20 million 11 particles per cubic foot the present threshold for talc dust 22 as recommend by the American Conference of Governmental 13 Industrial Hygienists 14 Q. So anthophyllite and serpentine were also included 15 in the material inhaled 16 A. Yes 17 Q. All right Go ahead 18 A. I would have to study this a little more carefully 19 to see whether technically it falls in as an epidemiological 20 study or case report But this is No. 96 it's another study 21 by Kleinfeld and workers published in 1964 Lung Function 22 in Talc Workers And they do talk about having examined -- 23 Q. Again is this tremolitic talc ; 24 A. Talking about nine people exposed to fibrous talc 25 from 13 to 26 years And also workers exposed to granular C.S.R. C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 248 talc two workers That probably wouldn't be quite an epidemiological study But again I would have to look at it more closely Q. Let me ask you a question about the nine people exposed to fibrous talc were exposed to tremolitic talc is that right A. Yes Q. What were the conclusions with regard to the two workers exposed to quote granular talc close quote 10 A. The abnormalities were more pronounced in the 11 workers exposed to fibrous talc than the workers exposed to 12 granular talc 13 Q. What abnormalities did they find in the workers 14 exposed to granular talc 15 A. Their words are In the majority of instances the 16 percentage of abnormal values for each parameter of pulmonary 17 function was appreciably greater in those exposed to fibrous 18 talc than those exposed to the granular variety So 19 specifically the distinction made between the two types of talc and the workers exposed to them is in terms of pulmonary 22 function 22 Q. Do they say that there is any pulmonary disability 22 to workers exposed the two workers they looked at exposed to 22 granular talc 25 A. Let's see They say Predominent symptom in the fC Ca D ASSOCIATES ASSOCIATES 249 groups-- referring to both groups of talc exposed workers --the predominent symptom is dsypnea So I read that as meaning that there was disability Q. Does it say that either of the workers that they looked at that was exposed to granular talc had any pulmonary disability at all Or is that something that you would just simply infer from the article A. Well this is one of the articles that I am seeing carefully for the first time because it was just brought here 10 this morning This is one of the late numbered exhibits 11 Q. By Mr. Hays by the way correct 12 A. Mr. Hays was kind enough to go get it in the 13 library after I gave him the reference citation 14 Q. When you tell us they had dyspnea that means 15 what 16 A. Shortness of breath 17 Q. Does the article say that there was any pulmonary 18 disability associated with exposure to the granular talc in the 19 two workers they looked at 20 A. They have -- 21 MR HAYS I'm sorry What is dyspnea by the 22 way Are we saying that is shortness of breath or 23 are we saying that is not a lung dysfunction 24 MR HINKLE I didn't say anything like that 25 THE WITNESS Let's look further what the authors C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 250 themselves say On Page 565 they say Since there were only two with symptomatic talcosis in the granular group Q. By Mr. Hinkle How many were looked at in the granular group total A. I think it was just two people but the way that sentence reads does make you wonder whether there were more than two Q. You don't really know how many were in the 10 granular group Is that true 11 A. I am pretty sure it was just two people and it 12 was the twist of the word in that language that makes your eye 13 brows go up and wonder are they talking about two out of a 14 larger group or are they just talking about the same two 15 people 16 Q. It's hard to tell isn't it 17 A. It's hard to tell when you are trying to read 18 these things -- 19 Q. Tell me what their conclusions are with regard to 20 exposure to granular talc 21 MR HAYS Did you complete your statement 22 You said it's hard to tell 23 THE WITNESS Yes It's hard to tell when you 24 are reading these things for the first time and trying 25 to deal with time pressure which is very reasonable C.S.R. C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES I'm not saying you're being unreasonable Q. By Mr. Hinkle Believe me we had every expectation that you would have already done all of this before you got here and I know it's not your fault either But tell us go ahead and answer the question about the conclusions A. I have been doing a lot of trial and deposition work as well as my other work lately and it does kind of keep me office balance Q. Just see if you can answer the question I would 10 appreciate it 11 MR HAYS Didn't you all request these article 12 be brought to this deposition 13 MR HINKLE We requested all the articles that 14 he looked at and relied upon and that served as a 15 foundation for his opinions in the case 16 MR HAYS Aren't you requesting him to go 17 through them at this point 18 MR HINKLE Well we've got them in front of us 19 we might as well 20 MR HAYS It's your choice 21 THE WITNESS What they say is that the exposure 22 to fibrous talc dust is more hazardous than to granular 23 talc That is the last sentence 24 Q. By Mr. Hinkle Do they make statements about 25 whether or not granular talc exposure to granular talc is or P ern ASSOCIATES -252 is not a hazard A. Well I read this to say that it is but it's less of a hazard than exposure to fibrous talc based on pulmonary function findings Q. Do they talk about the pulmonary function findings in the individuals the two that they looked at that were exposed to granular talc whether they were normal or abnormal does it say anything about that A. I think they indicate that they are abnormal 10 They describe them as having had symptomatic talcosis And 11 they indicate that -- they say The pulmonary function data 12 show that like fibrous talc prolonged exposure to a granular 13 type talc can produce in certain number of individuals an 14 impairment in ventilatory function and in diffusion capacity 15 Q. What's the next epidemiological study that you 16 find that relates to the possible danger of exposure to fibrous 17 talc 18 A. That would be -- 19 Q. By the way before we go on what is granular 20 talc do you know 223 A. I am not real clear on that 22 Q. Does it deal does it say what granular talc is in 23 the article 24 A. Mainly is I think described as to the relative 25 absence of fibers as opposed to what it is more what it C.S.R. C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 253 ain't Q. So anything that ain't got fibers in it is granular A. Not necessarily But I think that is what these doctors making this report are saying They are not mineralogists and I don't think they go into that very much Q. Is that what they indicate that if it's got no fiber in it then to their thinking it's granular A. Well which one was I just talking about 10 Q. Exhibit 96 1964 study 11 A. I don't think they really characterize the 12 material in here 13 Q. Any other epidemiological studies that relate to 14 the possible hazards of exposure to fibrous talc 15 A. This is No. 95 published in the Archives of 16 Environmental Health in 1965. And here they talk about the 17 study of 43 talc workers with exposure to talc dust and milling 18 operations for more than ten years and no previous 19 occupational dust exposure 20 Q. What type of talc are they exposed to 223 A. The talc dust to which millers were exposed was 22 predominately talc mixed with tremolite anthophyllite 23 serpentine and less than five percent free silica According 24 to Page 434. So it's the same work force that we have been 25 talking about that they have been talking about for years C.S.R. C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 254 Q. All right Were there concentrations of exposure A. The concentrations that the workers were exposed to exceeded the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygiene threshold limit value of 20 million particles per cubic foot in all cases but one exposures to talc dust exceeded the recommended guideline Q. All right A. And then they go on and get more specific and point out that some of the individuals had exposures weighted 10 average exposures as high as 60 to 120 million particles per 11 cubic foot 12 Q. So all of the work sites at which these exposures 13 took place were operating in violation of the regulations 14 concerning the work environment Is that true 15 A. I am not sure that we could characterize the 16 guidelines as regulations but in any event they were 17 guidelines that were widely known in industry that this ACGIH 18 group published and exposures on average did exceed those 19 guidelines 20 0. Any other epidemiological studies related to 21 possible health hazards associated with exposure to 22 fibrous -- excuse me to fibrous talc 23 A. I think the next one would be No. 65 by Kleinfeld 24 and workers 25 Q. The year ff e@ PD ASSOCIATES 255 255 255 A. 1967 Archives of Environmental Health Q. What type of talc are we concerned with A. Same stuff Q. Tremolitic talc A. Yes Q. Is there any distinction made between health hazards associated with fibrous versus fibrous talc in the course of that article A. I don't think that they have any data that 10 reflects on fibrous versus fibrous What this is is a 11 mortality study on people exposed to fibrous talc and I don't 12 think there is any corresponding data to the workers exposed to 13 less fibrous or fibrous talc 14 Q. Without regard to data is that something they 15 discuss in the article or do you know the relative hazards of 16 exposure to fibrous versus fibrous 17 A. I think they comment on the fact that fibers 18 asbestiform fibers have been by this time implicated in causing 19 a number of cancers including -- 20 Q. All I want you to do is answer that question so we 21 can move on Do you know whether or not they make any 22 statements in that article with regard to the difference in the 23 suspected danger exposure to fibrous versus fibrous talc 24 do you know 25 A. Well I don't think they put it in those kind of C.S.R. C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 256 terms that is why I am having trouble giving you a short answer but they imply at least it's the asbestiform fibers that are present in the talc that these miners and millers were exposed to that accounts for their accessive incidence of cancer of the lung which is demonstrated in this study Q. As long as we're on that subject Dr. Castleman are you aware of any medical literature which associates exposure to fibrous talc with the development of lung cancer A. Well this study represents itself as being the 10 first such study and I -- 11 Q. Are you aware of any others 12 A. I believe there were subsequent studies published 13 Q. Well we will cover that in a moment then Let's 14 go back to where we were That was a cancer study you say 15 Exhibit 65 16 A. That was a study whose findings showed that in 17 addition to Cor pulmonale as a major complication of death of 18 these workers that also lung cancer was demonstrated in this 19 study 20 Q. What kind of workers were they 21 A. Talc workers and miners in New York State 22 Q. All right 23 A. After that were into the 1970s 24 Q. Any epidemiological studies in the 1970s which 25 relate to the possible danger of exposure to fibrous talc C.S.R. C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 257 A. Yes Kleinfeld Messite and Zaki Q. Exhibit number please A. Number 71 Q. What type of talc are we dealing with A. We're dealing with the same stuff Q. Tremolitic talc A. Tremolitic talc mined in up state New York Q. How many people were involved in the study or how many subjects 10 A. Two hundred and sixty workers 11 Q. And what were the concentrations of exposure 12 A. I don't think they have any information on the 13 concentration that these workers -- Oh here No they are 14 taking about concentrations in other people's studies but not 15 in this work force I believe 16 Q. That was 1974 17 A. That's correct 18 Q. All right Any other epidemiological studies 19 relating to possible hazards associated with exposure to 20 fibrous talc 21 A. By this time we're up to 1979. And I do not 22 represent that by this late date I have collected every study 23 that was published 24 Q. Let's just talk about the ones that you have seen 25 before today or the ones that were provided to you today which C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 258 serve as the foundations for the opinions you are going to offer today and at trial Have you seen any other studies following Exhibit No. 71 that relate to epidemiological studies associated with possible health hazards of exposure to fibrous talc A. I think these studies are relating to asbestiform talc Q. We're going to get to those in just a moment A. I think that's all that I have here regarding 10 asbestiform talc There were probably others in this volume 11 called Dusts and Disease which we didn't get to photocopy 12 which was published in 1979 13 Q. You didn't see those though did you 14 A. I saw them but I only photocopied the ones 15 relating to I think relating to asbestiform talcs because 16 I figured that Kleinfeld had done a pretty thorough job 17 regarding asbestiform talc by the late 1970s that there was no 18 basis for doubting the gravity of that risk and that -- but 19 there were papers and interest focused in the 1970s on work 20 forces exposed to asbestiform talc and that is indicated 21 in Exhibit 72 and 74 and 75 22 Q. We will be talking about those in just a few 23 moments I have counted up Dr. Castleman ten epidemiological 24 studies associated with the possible health hazards of exposure 25 to fibrous talc CSR CSR CSR ASSOCIATES A. Yes Q. Does that sound about right to you A. Yes Q. correct Every one of those has to do with tremolitic talc A. Yes Q. And those ten studies span a period of time of approximately 40 years correct A. Or less than that Anyway they start in -- 10 Q. Start in '35 and go to '74 11 A. That is right that is about 40 years 12 Q. Just about 40 years So on the average that would 13 be approximately one every four years if you average it out 14 right 15 A. Yes 16 Q. Do you have any idea concerning the total number 17 of medical articles journals periodicals textbooks so 18 forth that were published over that 40 year period 19 A. No I don't 20 Q. Now what I would like for you to do is go back 21 now and let's talk about epidemiological studies related to 22 possible health hazards associated with exposures to 23 fibrous talc Before we do that let me ask you a question 24 about the fibrous talc studies Every one of those was a 25 retrospective study Is that true C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 260 A. No. Q. Was there a prospective study done in those epidemiological studies that we have discussed A. Well there were studies in some cases that were sectional studies looked at what kind of shape are people in now Q. But those reviewed past history right They did not set a control group and follow them from a point forward true 10 A. They did that too I mean in some cases they have 11 groups of subgroups of one study followed up five ten years 12 later by the same New York State officials to see the mortality 13 experience if you will sometimes of the group which was 14 previously reported as having developed pneumoconiosis 15 Q. Go ahead and tell me 16 A. In that sense that the literature is prospective 17 as well as retrospective 18 Q. Go ahead and tell me about any epidemiological 19 study that you have that relates to dangers of exposure to 20 fibrous talc 21 A. We have already discussed the problem of analyzing 22 Dreessen in that regard because Dreessen doesn't talk about 23 whether it's fibrous or fibrous but he does say one group 24 has four times as much tremolite in the talc than the other 25 group C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 261 Q. Well do you read that as a discussion of health hazards associated with exposure to fibrous talc A. I think that it's -- I read that as something that came out in 1935 and would have put anyone reading it on notice that fibrous talc could well be bad for you to breathe Q. Well do you read Dr. Dreessen's article Dr. Castleman to be an article dealing with possible health hazards of exposure to fibrous talc 10 A. Yes I read it as dealing with both the hazards of 11 fibrous and fibrous talc given that the information 12 provided as to fibers is almost completely lacking except for 13 the reference to tremolitic and less tremolitic talc 14 Q. What you're saying is that any article that you 15 see that does not make a clear distinction should be read as 16 one that deals with fibrous as well as fibrous talc right 17 A. Right I think it has to be read with prudence by 18 people who are concerned about public health That is the way 19 a public health person would read it 20 Q. Do you consider yourself to be a scientist 21 Dr. Castleman 22 A. Yes sir I am a public health worker 23 Q. And do you agree with me that scientists often 24 disagree with one another with regard to the significance of 25 certain data C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 262 A. Well certainly it occurs it is a common phenomenon in science Q. In fact science doesn't progress without that kind of disagreement do you agree with that A. That is part of the process of the development of knowledge that's right Q. Would you agree with me that a manufacturer who reviews scientific literature has the same right to agree with one group of scholars as with another would you agree with 10 that 11 A. I wouldn't put it in those terms 12 Q. Would you agree with me that if you have two 13 respectable schools of scientific thought with regard to a 14 subject that a manufacturer is free to choose which of those 15 two schools of thought the manufacturer will agree with 16 A. No. 17 Q. All right You think then that a manufacturer 18 should be placed in the position of having to anticipate which 19 school of scientific thought will ultimately prevail 20 A. No. But I think that the manufacturer has to 21 exercise prudence in the sale of products that are put in the 22 channels of commerce the same as engineers design bridges 23 assuming the worst case scenario Manufacturers putting 24 products into the channels of commerce given incomplete 25 knowledge about the health effects of those products have to C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 253 assume the worst until there is proof that the people -- that the respectable body of science with the more serious apprehensions about the product until there is proof that those people are wrong because human live's depend on it MR CROSBY Move to strike the answer as responsive MR JAMES I'll join in that motion MR PIERCE I'll join in that motion also Q. By Mr. Hinkle Do you believe Dr. Castleman 10 that common sense plays any role in regard to how a 11 manufacturer conducts his or her business 12 A. Yes 13 Q. Go ahead and tell me if you can find any 14 epidemiological studies that relate to alleged health hazards 15 associated with exposure to fibrous talc 16 A. You are asking for an epidemiological study 17 right 18 Q. Yes sir 19 Whereupon a short recess was taken 20 Q. Doctor during the break have you had a chance to 21 find all of the articles that relate to epidemiological studies 22 as to the possible health hazards of fibrous talc 23 A. During the break which lasted less than five ; 24 minutes I have not done that 25 Q. Well have you found any of them during the break C.S.R. C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 264 A. my lunch About the only thing I found during the break was Q. We did take a 45 lunch break to accommodate you Dr. Castleman in hopes that you would get your lunch A. It wasn't your fault but I didn't get my lunch MR HAYS That was my error I misunderstood He thought I was going to order him a sandwich and I failed to do so If it's five minutes that you feel you have been cheated out of some way by a five minute 10 break we will add the five minutes on the end of the 11 deposition so you all won't be too upset 12 MR HINKLE Mr. Hays you are as always a 13 gentleman and a scholar and we appreciate that 14 MR HAYS My momma trained me to be that 15 way I sometimes disappoint her but I try hard 16 Q. By Mr. Hinkle The question is on the table 17 Dr. Castleman 18 A. So far all I see are case reports that might 19 relate to hazards of fibrous talc 20 Q. We will get to those in a little bit I want to 21 know now about epidemiological studies 22 A. Here we have got -- I am not sure if this quite 23 qualifies as an epidemiological study but probably it does 24 Q. What's the exhibit number please 25 A. Number 36 C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 265 265 265 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. year All right Who is the author and what is the A. Published in 1949 by Hogue and Mallette of the Firestone Tire and Rubber Company Q. How many subjects were involved A. Twenty Q. And what was the material to which they were allegedly exposed A. It's a Vermont Talc which is described as a pure talc from a deposit near Johnson Vermont with no free silica tremolite chrysotile chrysolite or actenolite Q. article What were the conclusions with regard to that A. These authors concluded physical examinations and chest roentgenograms of a group of 20 men exposed to talc dust for periods ranging from 10 to 36 years in rubber inner tube production were normal for men of their age group in urban industrial environment Q. So this particular study follows by 14 years the Dreessen study and indicates that workers exposed to fibrous talc have normal chest rays even though they worked in the industry from 10 to 36 years Is that true A. That is what these authors say 0 All right A. I assume that the question is still pending C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 266 what's the next epidemiological study - Q. done Yes please Yes let's move on let's get it A. -- relating to a fibrous talc 0 Yes A. So we will skip the case reports on people exposed to fibrous talc for now Q. We will come back to them Again Dr. Castleman I know you are not delaying on 10 purpose but there is a good deal of time passing between our 11 discussion of these articles and in view of the fact we're on 12 kind of a tight schedule I am going to ask that you do all 13 that you can to hurry the process along 14 A. I am already doing that I mean I don't think 15 that I appear to be dawdling 16 Q. It is taking a good deal of time 17 A. Well I guess it's a real contrast to me doing 18 something like this as opposed to being asked the same 19 questions again and again in depositions about asbestos H 20 will try to change gears 21 MR CROSBY Move to strike the comments of the 22 witness 23 MR HOOD I would ask that the witness not take 24 out time to read articles and just answer the questions 25 posed C.S C.S.R. . RC.S..R. ASSOCIATES 267 MR HAYS Let the record reflect that the questions posed by counsel require a review of the documents So if you want the deposition to speed up maybe we ought to go to a different line of questioning Q. By Mr. Hinkle Again I don't want to get involved in this kind of discussion but this should have been done before we got here A. to ask I can't anticipate every question you are going 10 Q. You can anticipate that I am going to ask you 11 about these articles Dr. Castleman 12 A. I can anticipate that you're going to ask me 13 whether there were articles showing people breathing different 14 types of talc that got sick 15 Q. Let's not fuss about it let's just go ahead and 16 get the questions answered 17 MR HAYS He's entitled to respond if you make 18 some remark 19 Did you complete your response 20 THE WITNESS Yes 21 I didn't think the industries involved conducted 22 epidemiological studies nor were such studies 23 conducted by government officials in the case of 24 fibrous talcs 25 MR HAYS Are you talking about a specific time C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 268 period now THE WITNESS Up until the 1970s I don't see anything except case reports MR HOOD Let the record reflect he's turning over and looking through articles that have been produced in the deposition THE WITNESS Let the record so reflect Q. By Mr. Hinkle You said that there were no industry studies and no government studies and I'm not 10 limiting it to industry and government I want to know whether 11 anybody did epidemiological studies concerning the possible 12 health hazards of exposure to fibrous talc 13 A. Well there's practically nobody aside from the 14 industries involved and the government officials who could have 15 conducted epidemiological studies A doctor working in a 16 hospital isn't in a position to do an epidemiological study 17 He might see a case and report it but the only folks who would 18 have been able to conduct epidemiological studies especially 19 back in the time before the 1970s would have been people who 20 were placed either in the industry itself or in a government 21 agency of some sort 22 Q. Dr. Castleman you have told me about a number of 23 epidemiological studies that were done by Kleinfeld and others 24 true 25 A. Yes by state officials C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 259 Q. All right I want you to look at those articles and tell me -- and look at all of them I want to be sure whether there are any other epidemiological studies done by anyone insofar as the possible health hazards of exposure to fibrous talc A. I don't see anything until 1976 when the federal government in the form of the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health Q. Are you looking at an exhibit 10 A. I am looking at Exhibit 72 11 Q. All right Was that an epidemiological study of 12 possible health hazards associated with exposure to fibrous 13 talc 14 A. This is a report of an epidemiological study 15 This isn't the primary study 16 Q. What type of material -- excuse me The year for 17 that again was 18 A. 1976 19 Q. All right What type of material are we dealing 20 with A. What is called Relatively Pure Talc 22 Q. What -- 23 A. That is what it's called by the researcher 24 Q. Who is the researcher 25 A. Sherry Selevan epidemiologist with NIOSH C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 270 MR HOOD That is a misstatement The summary he's looking at has the quotation Relatively Pure end of quotation MR HAYS Wait a minute Excuse me If you are going to make an objection make an objection Just don't be making comments on the record MR HOOD Let's read it correct Q. By Mr. Hinkle What are the conclusions with regard to that 1976 NIOSH study as it relates to exposure to 10 fibrous talc 11 A. It says that NIOSH -- this study and this is in 12 quotes clearly demonstrate end quote that malignant 13 respiratory diseases such chronic emphysema and bronchitis are 14 associated with exposures to quote relatively pure end quote 15 talc according to NIOSH epidemiologist Sherry Selevan 16 Q. Does the report speak to the concentration 17 exposure concentrations 18 A. No. 19 Q. The report does indicate does it not that -- 20 A. I mean not quantitatively 21 Q. It does indicate that there appears to be no 22 relation between fibrous talc and cancer right 23 A. It says that more information needs to be 24 considered on the issue of cancer that the findings are not 25 clear cut They found some lung cancer deaths but they -- the C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 271 271 271 last paragraph reads as follows Investigators discovered six lung cancer deaths four among miners and two among persons who were both miners and millers during the 30 year period Eleven workers died from chronic emphysema bronchitis and other malignant respiratory diseases Five were millers one was a miner and the rest worked at both jobs Researchers said the 17 greatly exceeded cancer and respiratory disease death rates for both Vermont and the nation Earlier it does say that on the cancer correlation 10 epidemiologist Selevan cautioned that other factors such as 11 smoking and mine environment need to be taken into account 12 before conclusions can be drawn 13 Q. Could I see the exhibit please 14 Is this the last epidemiological study that you are 15 aware of that deals with possible health hazards associated 16 with exposure to fibrous talc 17 A. Selevan's work was published in the next year it 18 was announced at the conference in 1977 which I attended and 19 made a presentation at and which was published in 1979 20 MR HOOD I would like the record to reflect 21 what he was referring to and reading from is not the 22 NIOSH study but a summary that was marked Exhibit 72 23 the source of which has not been designated or 24 determined 25 MR HAYS I'm going to object once more to C.S.R. C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 272 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Counsel's remarks on the record that are not objections We have a lead counsel that is fully capable of taking care of this MR HOOD This apparently is a NIOSH study it's a summary of it We have asked him to produce it he has not produced but he has produced this one page THE WITNESS I am looking at it right now Mr. Hood I have produced it Q. By Mr. Hinkle On the same exhibit there is another summary that deals with benzene hexavalent chromium moca A. Right Very bad chemicals Q. Those are all bad chemicals aren't they Q. They all pose -- When you say huh I realize you have got your mouth full Is that yes A. Yes Q. Do those all pose health hazards to anyone who works around them correct A. A lung cancer hazard Q. Any other hazards that they pose that you know of A. Some of the substances cause -- Did I say benzene Benzene doesn't cause lung cancer it causes leukemia But they cause occupational cancer and in some cases these cause other kinds of malignant disease such as arsenic causing C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 273 skin ulceration and so forth Q. Does benzene pose a health hazard apart from the development of leukemia A. of cancer Yes it causes -- I believe it causes other forms Q. What other forms of cancer are you aware of caused by benzene A. Cancers of the blood forming organs But I forget the exact names of them Look this isn't a deposition on 10 benzene and I am not an expert on benzene It's just 11 something I happen to know 12 Q. All right So if I understand it then there are 13 two epidemiological studies that relate to possible dangers 14 associated with inhalation of fibrous talc one of them 15 the early one in 1949 finds no radiographic evidence of injury 16 and the other one in 1976 -- Oh and by the way do you know 17 whether or not that 1976 NIOSH report was ever formally 18 published 19 A. Well I don't know of other places where it may 20 have been published and it may have been published elsewhere 21 but I know it was published in the proceedings of this 22 conference And like I say by the time we get to the late 23 70s I didn't keep looking for each and every article on talc 24 although I know there were a number of such articles 25 Q. Well you didn't produce any epidemiological C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 274 studies relating to possible health hazards of exposure to fibrous talc from 1949 to 1976 true A. Right I don't know of any such studies Q. All right A. At this time Q. Are you aware of any epidemiological studies that relate to possible health hazards associated with inhalation of asbestiform fibrous talc A. asbestiform fibrous talc 10 Q. Yes Are you aware that there is such a 11 substance 12 A. I haven't seen that kind of description in the 13 literature that I have read 14 Q. So that particular term is a term that is unknown 15 to you then 16 A. Right 17 Q. All right So I take it then that we would be 18 safe in saying that you have found no epidemiological studies 19 no case studies no animal studies dealing with possible health 20 hazards of exposure to asbestiform fibrous talc true 21 MR HAYS By that name you mean 22 Q. By Mr. Hinkle Or any description that might 23 parallel that name 24 MR HAYS Let's just be fair if you want to put 25 it in quotes He says he hasn't seen that word that C.S.R. C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES was his testimoney He hasn't seen asbestiform fibrous talc That is not to say that some expert or physician wasn't referring to that type of talc whatever it is by another name So I just don't want to get caught in a semantics trap here Q. By Mr. Hinkle Do you know Dr. Castleman what asbestiform fibrous talc is A. No. Q. So I take it then that you would not be prepared 10 to offer any testimony with regard to that substance true 11 MR HAYS Once again unless it's known by 12 some other name 13 Q. By Mr. Hinkle Well that is the name that I 14 know it by And if that is the name I know it by and if that 15 is the name I am advancing to you you are in no position to 16 make testimony about it by that name Agreed 17 A. All I can say is I have never heard of this 18 entity It's possible that that kind of characterization 19 appears in some article of some sort or another perhaps 20 mineralogical article perhaps another one but I haven't seen 21 it 22 Q. All right That 1949 article epidemiological 23 study Exhibit No. 36 do you agree with me that manufacturers 24 of talc have as much right to place credence in that article as 25 in any of the other articles that you have spoken of C.S.R. C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 276 A. Q. you said The 1949 article by the Firestone doctors By whoever they were Hogue and Mallette I think A. Yes I mean that is part of the total body of medical knowledge Q. All right A. weight And as such could certainly be accorded some Q. Now you have not produced nor reviewed I take 10 it any animal studies relating to the possible health hazards 11 associated with exposure to talc Is that true 12 A. I have looked at some animal studies and I think 13 I have produced some animal studies 14 Q. Let's talk about the animal studies then How 15 many have you produced 16 A. I think Schultz and Williams did some animal work 17 in 1942 18 Q. Get that exhibit and let's talk about it 19 A. Witness produces document 20 Q. Can you not tell by looking at the abstract 223 Dr. Castleman whether it's an animal study or not 22 A. can tell it's an animal study But I expected 23 your question was going to go beyond that 24 Q. Well when you find one let me know so I can 25 start framing some questions Have you found one C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 277 A. minutes I have been looking at one for the last two Q. That is true What is the exhibit number A. Schultz and Williams 1942 Q. The exhibit number A. 22 Q. What were the conclusions A. They said The greatest amount of fibrous tissue was developed in the presence of two talcs which contained the 10 least carbonate Talcs of this type should be avoided whenever 11 possible 12 Q. What types of talc are they talking about 13 A. Talcs which contain the least carbonate 14 Q. Is that all we know about them that they contain 15 the least carbonate 16 A. Yep 17 Q. Any other animal studies 18 , This is one by Policard published in a French 19 journal 20 Q. Exhibit number 21 A. 19 22 2 You can skip the French journal Any others 23 A. This is another study by a French author a 24 separate one 25 Q. You can skip the foreign periodicals C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 278 A. That was No. 25. This is a review of the experimental studies in the report of Siegal and workers Q. Exhibit number A. Number 24 this report published in the United States by New York state officials describe experimental work by a number of authors Haynes in 1931 Stuber in 1934 Fossel in 1935 Bethune in 1935. So while we do not have the primary articles some of which were written in other languages here we do have a nice little summary here 10 Q. All I want to know is whether or not there are any 11 articles that deal with animal studies in front of you 12 A. Yes there are And like I say this one -- 13 Q. You have told us about article 24 Exhibit 24 14 Any others 15 A. It contains both review of the animal studies as 16 well as clinical material 17 Q. Let me ask you a question From the standpoint of 18 making general statements is it more helpful to the scientific 19 community to have epidemiological studies or case studies 20 A. It's helpful to the scientific community to have 21 both kinds of studies 22 Q. Which is generally regarded as the most helpful in 23 terms of reaching conclusions by the scientific community 24 A. I don't think there is a simple answer to that 25 question A case report can provide you with information that . ee. ee es we Fer eVPemMmrer an epidemiological study cannot provide you with Pathological information is an extremely important type and that kind of information is simply not available in morbidity studies of workers We don't go and chop peoples lungs out to see what their lung tissues look like All you can tell is what the ray films show you and the pulmonary function tests and clinic examinations show you Q. So it's your position that an epidemiological study is no more helpful to the general scientific community in framing general scientific principles than a case studies is A. Well I am just saying there are no simple 12 answers A lousy epidemiological study or a poorly constructed 13 one can be very misleading and can be extremely unreliable 14 Q. Let's assume a competent epidemiological study and 15 a competent case study 16 A. Again they are different types of information 17 imparted by both 18 Q. All right 19 A. And I don't think that the comparisons of that 20 kind are the sorts of comparisons that scientists would make 21 unless they were being deposed by lawyers 22 Q. Are they the kinds of comparisons that are made in 23 the literature Dr. Castleman or do you know 24 A. No I can't recall seeing those kinds of comparisons where a scientist says that epidemiological studies fo OC Pp ASSOCTAMDa 280 give us information more information or give us information that is -- or case reports give us information -- I mean it's known that case reports give information that is not contained in some epidemiological studies and epidemiological studies contain information unavailable from case reports Q. Listen to the question Dr. Castleman Whether or not epidemiological studies are more helpful in making general statements of scientific principal that's all I want to know A. They may be but that is not guaranteed 10 2 I am not talking about guaranties I am talking 11 about what is generally regarded in the scientific community 12 A. I don't think that you know that the question 13 lends itself to a simple answer 14 Q. Fine 15 A. It really depends on specific studies that you are 16 trying to compare 17 Q. If you can't answer then you can't answer 18 A. Well then I can't answer 19 Q. Thank you Now do you find that animal studies 20 are in any way helpful in regard to making general statements 21 of scientific principal 22 A. Sure All these kinds of studies contribute 23 information 24 2 All right Now I want you to go back through and 25 find for me all of the case studies that deal with possible C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 281 hazards of exposure to fibrous talc A. Do you want me to skip the initial study on rubber workers published in Italian Q. Yes skip that one Q. I tell you what let's save a little time Dr. Castleman As you come across a case study let's talk about it as it comes up rather than get them segregated out of fibrous and fibrous A. That is a great idea 10 Q. And keep them separate by the way when you stack 11 them up so we can have them 12 Do you have one in front of you 13 A. Well I am looking at the -- this is China clay 14 Here is talc This is a 1936 report by Middleton 15 Q. What's the exhibit number please 16 A. 16 I think Middleton is just talking about the 17 work of others so we will skip that 18 Q. Is there a case study involved in there 19 A. He reports on cases of talc pneumoconiosis 20 Q. What does he say about them 21 A. He doesn't say anything about whether the talc was 22 fibrous or fibrous which is what I am trying to find 23 assuming that is what you're mainly after 24 Q. What does he say about exposure to talc and its 25 possible hazards CSP CSP 10000TIMEO 282 A. Summarizing Merewether's report he says That the suggestion is that the radiological appearances seen really reflect the actual dust in the lungs together with any associated congestion rather that the presence of a diffuse fibrosis The few examinations made so far did not disclose any appreciable disablement after exposures ranging from 9 to 32 years Q. What is the year on that A. 1936. This is describing research conducted in 10 Great Britain 11 Q. And so -- 12 A. The source of the talc is not indicated 13 Q. So this is one year after the Dreessen study 14 A. Yes 15 Q. And we have conclusions that there is no 16 disablement associated with breathing talc for periods of 9 to 17 32 years 18 A. Right as had been reported by Merewether at least 19 as Middleton sums it up And then he talks about other cases 20 that other people have reported 21 Q. Do you believe that a reasonable manufacturer 22 would be justified in relying on the work of Merewether and 23 these others 24 A. I think a reasonable manufacturer has to rely on 25 the total body of knowledge to the extent that that information C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 283 is obtained 0 Including this A. Including everything Q. All right A. You don't get to pick and choose You got to include everything That is the way I look at it I mean you pick and chose on the basis of the quality of information from a scientific point of view not from an economical pecuniary point of view if you get my meaning 10 Q. Please go on and tell us the next case study that 11 you find 12 A. I have passed over the reports of Porro up until 13 now 14 0 Exhibit number please 15 A. This is Exhibit No. 23. I have not counted Porro 16 among the epidemiological studies because my reading of this 17 was that the population base from which these workers came was 18 not so well defined 19 Q. All right Which Porro -- 20 A. Number 23 21 Q. I have got the exhibit number but I don't have 22 those exhibits in front of me so tell me which Porro article 23 you are talking about 24 A. 1942 25 Q. Is that the American --~ C.S.R. ASSOCIATES New York mined talc but let me make sure He starts out with reviewing earlier work before he gets around to describing his case I am quite sure knowing the rest of the literature that this is a talc miner who mined fibrous talc but it doesn't say that in the article Q. So you are assuming that we are talking about tremolitic talc then right A. Yes but I am assuming as you might say material not in evidence here in this article I am assuming things 10 based on a larger knowledge in time than would have been 11 available to someone reading this in 1946. Someone reading 12 this in 1946 wouldn't have I think -- these doctors just don't 13 make the distinctions that we maybe wish they would have made 14 when they wrote about the medical condition of their patients 15 They don't make the kind of mineralogical distinctions that 16 your questions are directed toward And so someone reading the 17 article I think simply would not know whether this is fibrous 18 or fibrous talc unless they knew a little bit more about 19 what kind of talc came from St. Lawrence County New York But 20 even there it doesn't say that this guy work in 21 St. Lawrence County It says there have been earlier reports 22 from St. Lawrence County Maybe if you went back and looked at 23 Porro's earlier work you could maybe at least infer that that 24 is where this fellow came from But it doesn't say it here 25 Q. So the answer to my question is yes that is your C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 286 assumption A. My assumption is someone reading the article simply wouldn't know Q. I'm not asking about anybody else I'm asking about you Dr. Castleman Are you making the assumption that Exhibit No. 27 deals with a worker exposed to tremolitic talc yes or no A. That is my best guess Q. Thank you Dr. Castleman have you yourself ever 10 conducted an epidemiological study 11 A. No. 12 Q. Have you yourself ever done a case history work 13 on a patient 14 A. No I don't practice medicine without a license 15 Q. You're not qualified to supervise a case history 16 work is that true 17 A. I am not a physician so I don't go around 18 examining people 19 Q. Whether you do or not I'm asking - 20 A. At least not for medical purposes 21 Q. Please Dr. Castleman Whether you do it or not 22 do you consider that you are qualified to do that if you want 23 to 24 A. No. 25 Q. Do you consider that you're qualified to supervise @ C2 D ASSOCIATES 287 287 287 epidemiological studies from a medical perspective A. No. I don't supervise those kinds of studies but I read them and understand them and I've examined and critically reviewed hundreds if not thousands of epidemiological studies over the last 20 years Q. I didn't ask you about reading reviewing or criticizing I asked you about supervising Do I understand that the answer to my question is No you are not qualified to do that right 10 A. No response 11 Q. Dr. Castleman 12 A. I'm thinking about it It just depends on the 13 nature of the study I am not qualified to do it to the extent 14 that the qualifications needed would be in the area of 15 medicine but a lot of epidemiological work is simply a matter 16 of statistics and I am trained in the area of epidemiology and 17 the statistics so it really would depend on more of the 18 specifics of the data base under consideration 19 Q. So you may be qualified but you have never been 20 called upon to do that Is that an accurate statement 21 A. Right 22 Q. Have you done any follow research to determine 23 whether or not the -- strike the question 24 Have you done any follow research to determine how 25 the various articles that we have made exhibits and have C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 288 discussed were received by the medical community A. The only way I would really have of knowing that is by reading the articles themselves looking at the way that the different writers evidenced an awareness of writing by others in their own country and in other countries So in that sense I can see the kind of fertilization of knowledge that occurs across international borders Q. Are you aware for example whether or not any of the articles that we have discussed have been criticized in 10 terms of their methodology or conclusions 11 A. They have been but I am not aware of the details 12 I haven't been involved in controversies over talc that much 13 I know that the health research group in Washington has very 14 vigorously criticized the Vanderbilt Talc Company and has 15 written about that and that is one of the documents in the 16 file I brought here today 17 Q. Apart from the Vanderbilt Talc Company are you 18 aware of any of these articles that have been criticized by 19 subsequent authors or researchers with regard to methodology 20 and conclusions 21 A. No. But there may be such controversy to which I 22 am unaware 23 Q. Would that be something that would be necessary 24 for you to know in deciding how this material was received by 25 the medical community generally C.S.R. ASSOCIATES A. It might be relevant But again I think it would be reflected in the medical literature if substantial controversy existed Q. You are not suggesting to anyone here that you have an exhaustive collection of the literature relevant to the topic in front of you A. I believe I have a representative collection of the literature which is illustrative of the way knowledge emerged about talc 10 Q. Dr. Castleman did I ask you about a 11 representative sample 12 A. I believe you used the word exhaustive 13 Q. That is exactly the term that I used 14 A. When I say exhaustive I am talking about the kind 15 of research I have done on asbestos Now that is exhaustive 16 Q. That is what I'm thinking too and that is why I 17 asked Are you suggesting that you have done and you have in 18 front of you and exhaustive compilation of the work that is 19 done in this field 20 A. It's not exhaustive in the sense that it is all 21 inclusive And I believe that the work that I have done on 22 asbestos comes close to that at least with respect to the 23 historic literature But the work on talc there could be a 24 few things missing here probably are 25 Do you want to continue going through case reports or C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 290 do something else Q. Are you qualified to criticize the methodology and | the conclusions of the various authors that we have been discussing today A. I think I am qualified to criticize critically review some of the stuff I am not a pathologist If you get into the fine points of what pathologists write about what they see or think they see you might be getting into an area where I would feel uncomfortable But for the most part the 10 information reported here is information which I feel that I am 11 competent to critically evaluate 12 Q. Have you been asked to make any criticisms of the 13 methodology and the conclusions of any of these articles 14 that we have discussed today 15 A. No. 16 Q. Go to the next case study if you would please 17 A. This is No. 29. This is a 1947 publication in the 18 AMA journal called Occupational Medicine The author is a 19 physician in New York City 20 Q. What type of substance what type of talc is he 21 dealing with I am assuming that he's dealing with talc 22 right 23 A. Yes 24 Q. What type of talc is he dealing with 25 A. I believe that this is a case in which the author C.S.R. C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 291 says The elements of silica and asbestos have been eliminated as a cause of the pneumoconiosis in this case since the patient was never exposed to these substances in any industry prior to his exposure to talc in the cosmetic industry and since the chemical analysis of the talcum powder revealed less than .05 free silica So here it appears that we're talking about a fibrou tas lc which is also low in free silica which has nonetheless caused pneumoconiosis and which was being used in the cosmetic industry 10 Q. Prior to that time is there anything in the 11 medical literature indicating that exposure to fibrous talc 12 might result in injury to the lungs 13 A. I think this is the first - this may be the first 14 study I hesitate to say it definitely was but this certainly 15 may have been the first report where the author focused in on 16 the presence or absence of asbestos fibers and talc in trying 17 to ascertain what components -- I am sorry asbestos fibers and 18 silica in trying to figure out just what it was that was 19 causing pneumoconiosis in the talc exposed worker 20 Q. May I see the exhibit please while you are 21 looking for the next case study 22 A. Sure 23 Q. _ Do you have it in front of you Dr. Castleman 24 A. I am examining an Italian report because I think 25 the later literature shows that the Italian talc was not C2 1000C100T 0CTIMOI ne 1M 000O CTn IMOe ne 292 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 fibrous If you want to just skip the Italian work -- Q. Yes A. ~~ we can do it I am now looking at a German publication in 1950. Di Biasi's case I believe I have seen referred to by others as being a low or as to a fiber free talc Q. What's the exhibit number A. 39 0 Do you know whether or not it deals with fibrous versus fibrous talc A. I believe I have seen this referred to in subsequent literature as a fibrous talc Q. year is it What are the conclusions Oh by the way what A. This is 1950 to '51 Let me just -- that particular issue isn't addressed in the conclusions at least not that I could tell Q. So you are unable to tell us what the conclusions are in that article A. I will tell you what the conclusions are but I don't think they have a whole lot to do with whether it's fibrous or fibrous They're talking about a man who had 17 years exposure to talc dust Q. What was the outcome of that exposure A. This is written in German C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 293 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. If you can't make any sense out of it Dr. Castleman that is all right We will move on A. It's recorded as a case of talcosis but the details of the whole thing are expressed in the terms of a pathologist and it is in the German language Q. Let's go to the next case study then A. I think were up to Friedman pneumoconiosis reported a case Q. Exhibit number please A. 1952 No. 43. This is in JAMA Q. What type of talc A. They say the free silica contents of talc is half a percent or less Let me make sure we're talking about the same because sometimes they go back and forth between reviewing past studies and telling you what they have seen themselves I am afraid this is another case of a doctor not being terribly attentive to mineralogic details Q. Do you know whether or not that deals with fibrous versus fibrous talc A. It doesn't say anything about whether there are fibers in this talc or not Q. All right A. The next case report is in the AMA Archives of Industrial Hygiene 1952 and this is No. 44. Forty year old man at the time of his death He had worked in a shoe C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 294 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 factory cutting out shoe linings And there was abundant talcum powder used in this process Q. What were the exposure levels A. I am quite certain there is no data on that Q. What was the type of talc involved A. I would be very surprised if a doctor reported that This is one of those extraordinarily thorough case reports Q. It does not tell us what type of talc we're dealing with A. He is helpful though On 461 the good doctor does tell us the case reported by Di Biasi found only very occasional asbestos bodies The analysis of the talc inhaled revealed a small fraction of asbestos So that is the reference I mentioned that said that Di Biasi's case was a relatively fibrous talc Q. But it did have asbestos in it A. Yes Q. What about Exhibit No. 44 A. About his own case Q. Yes A. It's extraordinarily detailed Germans write case reports This is the way Q. Can you tell whether or not it's fibrous versus fibrous talc C.S.R. C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES A. I don't think so Q. All right Let's go to the next one then A. I don't think he indicates whether there were fibers in this talc Q. Let's go to the next one then A. This is No. 45 by a Navy doctor called Talc Pneumoconiosis 0 What is the date A. 1953. He has been employed dusting life rafts 10 with talcum powder for a year 11 Q. What type of talc 12 A. I very much doubt that the Navy doctor had any 13 information on that It was a previous job that the individual 14 had held prior to going into the Navy 15 The next one is No. 46 in the British Medical Journal by 16 Bertram Mann and Doctor or Mr. Deasy This case -- 17 Q. Year please 18 A. 1954. Points out that the bulk of the reports are 19 related to workers in talc mills or steatite mines workers and 20 employees engaged in the rubber industry and in the production 21 of cosmetics 22 Q. What type of talc is he discussing 23 A. In this case he says Under Discussion 24 Petrographically talc consists of straight fibers curved 25 fibers and shreds These fibers measure up to ten microns in C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 296 length 0 A. Q. with talc Do you know what kind of talc it is Not beyond what I just read you Any discussion of any other substances included A. No. These doctors are lousy mineralogists Q. What were the conclusions with regard to that particular case A. In the end he says A survey of the literature 10 suggests that this condition is not a pure pulmonary silicosis 11 but is rather a slowly developing fibrogenic disorder And it 12 has been suggested that it may be allied to asbestosis In the 13 above reported case talc pneumoconiosis manifested itself by a 14 very insidiously developing dyspnea associated with a mildly 15 productive smoker's cough 16 Q. Does it discuss in that article whether or not the 17 subject was a cigarette smoker 18 A. The words smoker's cough are in quotes So he 19 might not have been a smoker he might just have had a cough 20 that sounded like a smoker's cough It doesn't say 21 Q. May I see the exhibit please 22 A. Yes I don't think it actually says whether or 23 not the man smoked 24 Q. Do you have the next case history in front of you 25 A. Yes C.S.R. C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 297 297 297 Q. What is the exhibit number please A. I am not sure that these -- I am not sure if he's reporting a new case here or not This is McLaughlin No. 50 1955. Does look like McLaughlin is just reporting again on a case that he's already seen Which reminds me there were a few more articles brought in this morning one of which was the original McLaughlin report of 1949 2 Well was that 1949 McLaughlin report a case study 10 A. It was it was a case study 11 Q. Exhibit No. 937 12 A. McLaughlin's report the original one was 13 published in the British Journal of Industrial Medicine in 1949 14 reporting a fatal case of talc pneumoconiosis and age 51 who 15 had worked in a rubber tire factory for 37 years 16 Q. What kind of talc 17 A. The mineralogy of the particles in the lung 18 included some fibers 19 Q. Yes Concentration of exposure 20 A. Kind of interesting The concentration of 21 exposure I don't know if that is indicated Let me just -- as 22 to whether they are fibrous or not fibrous it says that talc 23 in this plant came from Norway initially and then Canada 24 Q. Doctor this is quite interesting to us but I 25 need to know whether or not there is anything in there about C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 208 concentration exposure concentrations A. Sorry I don't see any numbers I don't think that they had any measures of concentrations to which the man had been exposed It says regarding fibrous Both varieties of talc used are predominately platy in form although each contains a portion of fibers Q. This is one of the articles that you did not have a chance to look at until it was delivered this morning secured last night by Mr. Hays Is that true 10 A. That's correct 11 Q. What is the next case study 12 A. I think McLaughlin returns to the discussion of 13 this case in this 1955 article 14 Q. Six years later he's discussing it again 15 A. He's still talking about that case in a more 16 general review on dust diseases He was a British factory 17 inspector physician So that is in No. 50. Now on we go 18 Animal study by Schepers All right Here is a case 19 Q. What is the exhibit number please 20 A. 53 published in 1956 Thorax by A.C. Hunt the 21 London Hospital Medical College Ten years exposure 57 years 22 old at the time of death Coating lead accumulator plates with 23 talc 24 Q. What kind of talc 25 A. Clinical history we do have some mineralogic C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 239 examination from Dr. Nagelschmidt no less ray defraction diagram shows strong talc pattern and a few weak kaolin lines and very faintly the strongest quartz line at 3.34 A. This indicates a sample contained apart from talc less than a half a percent of quartz and perhaps two or three percent kaolin There was no evidence of the presence of tremolite Q. Do you know whether that was a fibrous or a fibrous talc A. He does indicate that he had seen some lung damage 10 that looked like asbestos bodies He says Curious bodies 11 similar but not identical to asbestos bodies have been 12 described in most cases of talc pneumoconiosis He says 13 referring to McLaughlin He says they consist of a single 14 fiber with terminal rosettes but without intermediate beading 15 They were present in this case although in small numbers So 16 they didn't find any tremolite in the analysis of the talc by 17 Dr. Nagelschmidt who Dr. Nagelschmidt was a world class 18 mineralogist 19 Q. But there were asbestiform bodies in the lung 20 samples 21 A. But he had a few asbestos bodies in the lungs or 22 things that looked like them anyway 23 Q. All right 24 A. Subsequent studies have shown that urban dwellers 25 all over the world have the same kinds of forms in their lungs C ,0 ASSOCTANEO ASSOCTANEO 300 Q. Is that discussed in that particular article A. No. Q. This is just a gratuitous statement by Dr. Castleman A. No. That's a statement based on literature published study in 1963 but since this was written in 1956 this gentleman didn't have the benefit of that knowledge Q. I mean though when you made that statement that was not based on anything that you had in front of you right 10 A. Right 11 Q. Please go on 12 A. So we're through with this case Then there is 13 some textbooks We have got three more cases by Dr. Seeler and 14 his workers in Cambridge Massachusetts 15 Q. Exhibit number please 16 A. 57. This is published in the Archives of 17 Industrial Health in 1959. Layout men in a factory 18 manufacturing coated cable 19 Q. What's the year Did you say '59 20 A. Yes 21 Q. What type of talc are we dealing with 22 A. Pretty clean stuff Says Talc used throughout 23 the years by the men whose cases we are reporting was all from 24 a single mine in Vermont and presumably was a fairly uniform 25 composition It varied in grain size from one to 150 microns C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 301 90 percent of the particles less than ten microns Analysis of the talc below 10 microns in size was reported as eight percent talc 68 percent dolomite three percent magnetite 16 percent serpentine and five percent other minerals The free silica content was reported to be less than a half a percent There isn't any reference to asbestiform materials or fibers there's no reference to tremolite or fibers that I can see Q. What are the conclusions with regard to exposure to this what you call clean stuff 10 A. Well clean in the sense that it didn't appear to 11 have any reference to asbestiform fibers in the part that I was 12 looking at 13 Q. What are the conclusions 14 A. They found shaped particles in the areas of 15 fibrosis ray defraction studies in our two case indicated 16 that doubly refractile needle particles were talc And 17 they make reference to the fact that a number of authors remark 18 on the presence of asbestos bodies in the tissues which we 19 did not observe in our material On Page 27. So that anyway 20 you can read this at your leisure 21 Q. May I see it please 22 A. Witness produces document 23 Q. Your understanding is that this deals with 24 fibrous talc Exhibit No. 57 25 A. As far as I can tell But I mean you know I C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 302 haven't looked at it as thoroughly as I might like to Q. It makes reference to the fact that talc merely produces inert reactions Is that comment made in the comment in that particular article A. Q. if I may I am sorry where are you reading from I will just come around and look at it with you A. Sure Seems like they describe it in other terms Oh yes They are making reference to an earlier short term 10 animal study conducted by Miller and Sayers in the injection of 11 talc into peritoneal tissue which unfortunately wasn't allowed 12 to stay in the tissues long enough to produce peritoneal 13 mesotheliomas And these were studies that were conducted in 14 the 1930s But as to their own findings they say that Talc 15 must be regarded as a material which will cause pneumoconiosis 16 if a high concentration of the dust is inhaled for many years 17 And they go on to reiterate that in a summary saying that 18 Lungs in both cases showed extensive fibrosis which did not 19 however show a specific pattern that might be of diagnostic 20 value Apparently referring to the chest ray 21 Q. Any other case studies 22 A. I think the rest of this stuff is from the New 23 York State people 24 Q. And those are studies that we have already 25 discussed U A 1000ATIMna 303 303 303 A. Kleinfeld and workers yes Q. All right A. Of course we haven't discussed everything here Q. We will cover that To summarize you have at least in English two studies which deal with fibrous talc one in 1947 and one in 1959 right - A. that point I can certainly recall two which were explicit on And there were others which we simply do not know 10 Q. Now the study in 1947 which is Exhibit 29 11 indicated that the subject had minor symptoms correct Look 22 at Exhibit 29 please 13 A. I don't have it here 14 Q. Exhibit 29 is not there 15 A. Here it is 16 Q. Did you find it 17 A. Yes I have it here 18 Q. The very tail end of the -- 19 A. That is right This individual this individual 20 is mainly referred for evaluation because of the abnormal chest 21 ray picture but the individual did not have certainly 22 didn't have seriously overt symptoms of disease 23 Q. So prior to 1959 we have no case studies of any 24 fibrous talc which appears to be causing problems in the 25 subject Is that true C.S.R. ASSOCIATES MR HAYS Have we been distinguishing in the early studies between fibrous and fibrous Q. By Mr. Hinkle The only studies that we can find that make the distinction are the ones that I am talking about A. The problem is of course the doctors in many of these cases simply didn't provide the information that we would at this particular time like to look back and find So you know in a lot of cases incomplete information exists as to whether or not it was fibrous or fibrous And my 10 admonition that the worse case situation has to be taken into 11 account would apply That is that someone reading it would 12 have to assume that unless it's very clear that the case 13 reported does not result from a product similar to the one that 14 you are selling you have to assume that maybe it has some 15 import for your product 16 MR PIERCE Move to strike as unresponsive 17 Q. By Mr. Hinkle If you would please show me any 18 article that you have in front of you that says that inhalation 19 of fibrous talc may be disabling in any way 20 A. Again they don't really put it in those terms in 21 most of these articles They say inhalation of talc may be 22 disabling In some cases they say inhalation of talc 223 containing fibers or tremolite may be disabling or quartz 24 Q. Is there any medical literature that you are aware 25 of Dr. Castleman that would say to a manufacturer of C.S.R. C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES fibrous talc it has been proven to the scientific community that your product can cause disability in people who breathe it A. I don't think there is anything that absolute in the early literature Q. Well in anywhere that you know of MR HAYS He's been confining his testimony to early literature and has not researched the later literature He stated that on the record 10 Q. By Mr. Hinkle That is fine Whatever you have 11 looked at anywhere any time that would say to a manufacturer 12 or distributor of fibrous talc your product may cause 13 disability Do you see that anywhere 14 A. If not earlier certainly the report of Seeler and 15 his workers say that to me 16 Q. What's the year on that 17 A. This is the 1959 report where ~- because others 18 had pointed out that fibers or fibrous talc might be worse than 19 fibrous talc this researcher looked into that question 20 with respect to his own case whereas had he seen the case 20 21 years earlier he probably wouldn't have done so 22 Q. You are talking now about Exhibit 57 23 A. Right 24 Q. Does Exhibit 57 indicate that the subject is 25 disabled C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 306 A. We're talking about pathological findings Q. Is there any statement in there that the subject is disabled A. sure I think these subjects were dead But let me make Q. All right Is there anything in there that indicates that the subject ever suffered from any disability by reason of inhalation of talc A. Maximum breathing capacity in one case is given as 10 66 percent of a predicted value 11 Q. Does it say whether the subject was a cigarette 12 smoker Dr. Castleman 13 A. No I didn't see any reference to that 14 Q. Does it say whether he was exposed to any other 15 chemicals or any other substances that might compromise the 16 lungs 17 A. It doesn't indicate that he had -- Oh hold it 18 He worked as a coal miner in West Virginia for about four 19 years 20 Q. That might account for lung impairment might it 21 not Dr. Castleman 22 A. It might 23 Q. All right 24 A. I am not sure it would account for the type of 25 lung impairment that they found fr QC Ff ACCOTIMBO Q. What kind of lung impairment did they find A. Well after they get through the fine print it says Summarizing both the gross and histological findings in this case the pattern is one of a chronic crippling progressive disease of the lungs by scar tissue injury and distruction of blood vessels dilatation of bronchi and alveoli and slighter degrees of fibrosis and atelectasis throughout the rest of the lung The presence of large quantities of doubly refractile material except in the centers of oldest and 10 largest of scars which appear to be the etiologic agents 11 responsible Our diagnosis of the lymph nodes was one of 12 talcosis anthracosis and benign reactive hyperplasia 13 2 What's anthracosis 14 A. What you get from mining coal 15 Q. That is what you get from mining coal All right 16 Go ahead 17 A. Hard coal Case two And again there is a lot 18 of medical information of very detailed nature In summary 19 the pattern of the lung in the second patient was much like the 20 first characterized by a progressive replacement of normal 21 lung parenchyma by scar tissue There was narrowing and 22 ocollusion of the bronchi and bronchioles and an obliteration 23 of large portions of both vascular and lymph channels 24 Q. Does it say whether or not that particular patient 25 was a smoker for example C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 308 A. He had a chronic cough since 1910 when he had pneumonia and emphysema Doesn't sound like a smoker but it doesn't say Q. Excuse me Dr. Castleman - A. Doesn't say anything about whether he smoked Q. Pneumonia and emphysema doesn't sound to you like conditions associated with smoking A. Well he had pneumonia and emphysema he had a mild chronic cough since 1910 when he had pneumonia and 10 emphysema which I think would have been when the man was quite 11 young 12 Q. That doesn't sound like something associated with 13 smoking to you 14 A. Well the context is he had had a mild chronic 15 cough since 1910 when he had pneumonia and emphysema until 16 about 1954 17 Q. I am trying to follow up on a comment that you 18 made gratuitously as you read that that it doesn't sound like 19 a smoker to you 20 A. I'll take that back The more I look at this the 21 more I feel like that was not justified I am not saying he 22 was or wasn't I will take a neutral position on the subject 23 since the case report doesn't say anyway 24 Q. Thank you Dr. Castleman 25 A. You wanted to know if he was a smoker I don't C2 ASSOCIATES 300 300 300 b see anything about that know Was there anything else you wanted to Q. Do you know whether he was exposed to any other agents that might have compromised his lungs A. Doesn't indicate that he was MR HAYS Can't we just let the article speak for itself about agents THE WITNESS Says He was engaged in various unskilled occupations not involving unusual dusty 10 exposure for several years and for 34 years in the 11 rubber plant And then it goes on to make more 12 comments about -- 13 Q. By Mr. Hinkle By the way do you know what all 14 chemicals are involved in the manufacturing of rubber tires 15 A. No I don't 16 Q. Do you know all of the dusty agents to which 17 workers are exposed in the manufacturer of rubber tires 18 A. No I don't 19 Q. Go ahead 20 A. Describing a condition they say The pulmonary 21 pathology in the two patients that we studied and those 22 previously reported is characterized by what is presumably a 23 progressive replacement of normal lung tissue by fibrous tissue 24 without any specific pattern that could be regarded as 25 diagnostic for talc pneumoconiosis C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 310 J. And to go back to the point that we were making earlier prior to 1959 there is no case history reporting any disability associated with the inhalation of fibrous talc that you have found and reviewed Is that true A. I haven't found any article that is explicit on that point until this one in terms of saying you know as I have tried to indicate relatively few of the articles give us the kind of information we would like to have as far as whether it's fibrous whether it has tremolite These doctors are not 10 mineralogists not very many have had the benefit of Dr. 11 Nagelschmidt to help them examine the material that caused the 12 disease 13 Q. All I want to know Dr. Castleman is there is one 14 case history that you find prior to 1959 that deals with 15 fibrous talc right 16 A. That explicitly deals with fibrous talc 17 Q. That deals with talc to the degree that we know 18 whether or not it's fibrous or fibrous 19 A. And which caused very serious disease yes 20 Q. Well the one that we know before 1959 says that 21 the symptoms are minor right 22 A. Right says that it did cause an abnormal chest 23 ray but up until the time of the report no really serious 24 symptoms 25 Q. All right Do you know whether or not there are CSP CSP CSP ASSOCIATES 311 311 311 articles concerning the health hazards associated with the breathing of flour for example A. I have heard of baker's asthma Q. You have heard of that then A. Yes Q. Do you know whether or not there are reported articles concerning the health hazards associated with the breathing of sugar A. can't recall Sugar cane yes I've heard 10 something about sugar maybe it's not the sugar but some of 11 the other waste material that is associated with the processing 12 of the sugar plants 13 Q. Have you heard that there are health hazards 14 associated with the breathing of the dust in a cotton gin for 15 examplexaemple 16 A. Yes 17 Q. You have heard that there are health hazards 18 associated with breathing the dust in a wheat bin for example 19 A. Farmer's lung yes 20 Q. Heard about that 21 A. Well I don't know about wheat but I have heard 22 of farmer's lung 23 24 A. Generally things that are stored in silos can be 25 composed and cause high presence of nitrous oxides and stuff C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 312 if the farmer walks in and doesn't realize it he can really get clobbered Q. Are you generally familiar with the fact that any kind of dust can be concentrated to the degree that if you breathe it it will hurt you A. I think that that's been a general assumption in the field of industrial health that some dusts are more pernicious than others but almost any dust can cause ill effects if exposures to it are sufficiently gross 10 Q. Do you know of any substance any material that 11 you would say is less pernicious that can be employed in the 12 rubber industry to do the same job as talc 13 A. I am not here as a technological expert on the use 14 of talc and similar agents in the rubber industry I think you 15 need to consult with you know rubber processing engineers to 16 get answers to questions like that I don't even know what the 17 alternatives to talc that would be available are 18 Q. I take it then that the answer to my question is 19 no you don't know of anything 20 A. I am just not the right guy to ask I don't know 21 what the alternatives to talc are in that kind of a process 22 much less how safe or unsafe they are Are you telling me that 223 the things you have just listed are the alternatives that could 24 be listed instead of talc 25 Q. Doctor it's a wise man who knows what he doesn't CSR CSR CSR ASSOCIATES 313 313 313 know And if you don't know whether there is anything that can be used as a substitute for talc you can say that A. I have Q. Thank you A. I don't know what is available as a substitute in talc and rubber processing I am not here as a rubber processing technology authority Q. Thank you Dr. Castleman Now have you disclosed to us all of the opinions that you have with regard to talc 10 A. I think so 11 Q. All right 12 A. Or at least I mean it's always possible somebody 13 would ask me a question that would elicit an opinion that I 14 haven't given you but I have in good faith tried to tell you 15 what I think would be asked of me in connection with these 16 cases 17 Q. Now I understand that you are going to be asked 18 some questions concerning asbestos And with the exception of 19 questions concerning asbestos have you complied with the 20 request made upon you by plaintiff's counsel with regard to 21 expressing opinions in this case 22 MR HAYS There are a couple of documents on 223 clay that are involved in this 24 Q. By Mr. Hinkle Well let me ask Doctor are you 25 holding yourself out today as an expert in the development of C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 314 medical and scientific knowledge concerning the possible hazards of exposure to clay A. I have seen reference to hazards of clay and clay products in the literature but I do not consider myself an expert on that 2 All right Then having made that statement do you agree that with the exception of the questions that you are about to be asked about asbestos that you have stated the opinions that you intend to offer in the trial of these cases 10 in Oklahoma 11 A. I believe I have 12 MR HAYS We will ask him some questions on clay 13 probably at trial 14 MR HINKLE Well I will tell you if he is not 15 an expert and he's not prepared to testify to it today 16 then we're going to strenuously object to it These 17 cases have been on file now for two years and the 18 plaintiffs have had every opportunity in the world to 19 locate experts and cultivate those experts and prepare 20 those experts and we have come a thousand miles to take 21 this man's deposition and if plaintiff's intend to 22 try to create an expert in a field where he's not an 23 expert at some later date we are going to strenuously 24 object to it 25 MR HAYS Well he does have information about C.S.R. C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 315 315 315 talc literature MR HINKLE Well I have got information about the Shah of Iran too but that doesn't make me an expert MR HAYS That is what he's here for to tell you when the literature was there and what was there MR HINKLE I am not going to inquire into all the areas where he's not an expert If he is not an expert as he says there is no need for us to waste all 10 this time 11 MR HAYS His definition of what an expert is 12 and mine are two different things and I think he is 13 an expert in clay 14 MR CROSBY We will stipulate to that 15 MR HINKLE I think that the court will be 16 in a pretty good position to decide 17 MR HAYS Well I intend to ask him some 18 questions on clay on my cross about the articles you 19 requested that were brought here may be not you but 20 one of the counsel requested that They are here and 21 I am going to inquire about them 22 MR CROSBY Before you go into something else 23 let me adopt your statement about opinions of this 24 witness in all matters but particularly that relating 25 to matters that he is not prepared to opine on at this C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 316 time MR HOOD We join in that Q. By Mr. Hinkle Before I yield the witness let me ask the witness whether you agree with this statement as of 1976 Possible adverse health effects from intermittent use of these product-- talking about talc products especially those that contain asbestiform and fragmented anthophyllite and tremolite chrysotile quartz and trace metals are presently unknown and warrant evaluation Do you agree with that 10 MR HAYS Show him what you're referring to 11 MR HINKLE I just want know if he agrees or 12 disagrees with that statement 13 MR HAYS Show him the article and let him take a 14 look at it 15 MR HINKLE All I want to know is whether he 16 agrees with that statement 17 THE WITNESS The statement sounds like the 18 ultimate product of timidity and bureaucracy and 19 could very well have come from some government report 20 MR HAYS I want him to look at the article I 223 request that he be allowed to look at the article and 22 review it and not be required to agree to something 23 taken out of context read in the record to be pulled 24 out for a motion for summary judgment 25 MR HINKLE I am not going to ask him to comment C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 317 on the article I just want to know his thoughts with regard to that statement And if he is taking the position that that is a timid and bureaucratic statement and he doesn't agree with it that is all right with me Q. A. 1976 By Mr. Hinkle Is that your position Is that supposed to be something that was said in 2 Yes sir 1976 10 A. It just sounds like whoever wrote that was writing 11 with what would have to be described as an abundance of caution 12 in attributing health hazards to talc given the body of 13 knowledge that existed by 1976 which was really substantial 14 Q. So you disagree with that statement then 15 A. I've answered your question 16 Q. I am not sure that I heard that You said that he 17 was acting with an abundance of caution which may mean he's 18 right or wrong or you are not willing to take a position Do 19 you agree Disagree Or just not going to take a position 20 A. I have answered your question 21 Q. Dr. Castleman I don't think you have I am going 22 to read the question to you again 23 MR HAYS I want to request he be allowed to 24 look at the article 25 MR HINKLE He doesn't need to look at the C.S.R. ASSOCIATES article MR HAYS Yes he does MR HINKLE No he doesn't not to answer that question Listen to this question Dr. Castleman and tell me whether you can agree with this or disagree with it or whether you refuse to take a position on this MR HAYS Why are you hiding the article from him 10 MR HINKLE I've got my reasons 11 MR HAYS Let's hear the name of it What's the 12 article 13 MR HINKLE You don't need to know All I want 14 to know is whether he agrees with that statement 15 MR HAYS Who is it from What's the big secret 16 Q. By Mr. Hinkle I am going to read this to you 17 and you tell me what your response is Possible adverse 18 health effects from intermittent use of these products --" 19 referring to talcum powders Possible adverse health effects 20 from intermittent use of these products especially those that 21 contain asbestiform and fragmented anthophyllite and 22 tremolite chrysotile quartz and trace metals are presently 23 unknown and warrant evaluation 24 A. Absent any context I don't know that I could 25 agree or disagree or otherwise comment on it because the word C.SC.S.R. . RC..S.R. ASSOCIATES 319 319 319 intermittent there is - well it's you know it just leaves the whole thing hanging And I don't know with what it's hanging from If I can't see the context I've got no idea what those authors or that author possibly means by intermittent Does he mean an hour A month Or do they mean three hours a day Q. So I take it you're just not able to say I agree or disagree correct A. I am not able to answer a question posed in the 10 manner that you have posed it to me no 11 Q. I don't know that I would -- let me conclude with 12 this Dr. Castleman With regard to the state of the medical 13 knowledge concerning the dangers of talc and exposure to talc 14 would you agree that practicing physicians would be as able as 15 you to make statements in that regard If you could find it 16 they could find it right 17 A. About the history of the knowledge 18 Q. Yes 19 A. Or about what is known today 20 Q. Yes 21 A. Certainly practicing physicians are capable of 22 reading the same information or finding the same information or 23 using medical libraries looking stuff up in medical textbooks 24 Q. As a matter of fact you yourself did not assemble 25 the materials we have been discussing Those were assembled C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 320 for you correct A. Well I have really directed the assembling of all this material Q. You sent someone to the medical library and told them what to get for you A. I told them to get specific references and I told them exactly how to use those references in a very straightforward manner looking into bibliographies of those articles and getting other references And then I have gone 10 and additionally looked at additional material that that person 11 didn't bring back I mean the whole thing has really been 12 directed by me It's not as if somebody served this stack of 13 articles up to me on a silver platter I am sure you realize 14 that 15 Q. The sources that you went to to get this 16 information they are readily available to any physician who 17 cares to look Would you agree 18 A. Any physician businessman sure 19 Q. Lawyer 20 A. Medical libraries are open I can't imagine a 21 medical library turning anyone away who has a legitimate reason 22 for going to them 23 Q. A lawyer or a high school student if they know 24 where to look can go get this information 25 A. I don't know -- a high school student might need a C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 321 little bit of help But yes the information has been publicly available Most of these articles are in the English language and come from journals and textbooks that are available in major cities across this country Q. You wouldn't quarrel with a physician in fact a physician who has published in this area that is the effects of talc in the chest you wouldn't quarrel with a physician who said that there was no consensus in the medical community until at least 1984 with regard to the effects of talc in the chest 10 would you 11 A. Well I guess it really depends exactly how he 12 says that 13 Q. Let me phrase it to you as close to his words or 14 as close to his response to the question as I can The 15 question was put to him Was there a consensus in the medical 16 community prior to 1984 concerning the effects of talc in the 17 chest And his answer was No. 18 MR HAYS I am sorry Would you restate that 19 for me again 20 Q. By Mr. Hinkle Sure The question was -- 223 MR HAYS To who 22 Q. By Mr. Hinkle To a physician who has written on 23 the subject your witness a witness for the plaintiff 24 MR HAYS which witness 25 MR HINKLE Dr. Feigin C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 322 MR HAYS Said what Q. By Mr. Hinkle The question was put to him Prior to 1984 was there a consensus in the medical community concerning the effects of talc in the chest MR HAYS He couldn't speak to the medical community He limited it to radiologists and he said 1950 I am going to challenge -- in the early 1950s I'm going to challenge your statement on that MR HINKLE If I am wrong I'm wrong 10 MR HAYS Well you are wrong 11 MR HINKLE I may be 12 Q. By Mr. Hinkle Assume for purposes of this 13 question that I'm correct 14 A. I'll assume there is some doctor who has published 15 some article on talc who has said whatever you are going to 16 say Go ahead 17 Q. Are you going to quarrel with that doctor's 18 conclusions if that's what he says 19 A. Well again I would want to know the context Is 20 he talking about talc as a mineralogically pure substance which 21 may or may not have ever been used in a factory in the United 22 States Or is he talking about the kind of materials that have 23 been used in industry and have been the subject of many medical 24 and scientific reports First of all the reason I have to ask 25 you this is because the question itself doesn't include that C.S.R. ASSOCIATES information Q. Let's me put it to you this way then What talc products would we be discussing in order for you to agree with that statement A. Talc products generally used in industry which have been the subject of the medical literature on talc I would think Q. Meaning that there was no consensus in the medical community prior to 19847 10 A. On what 11 Q. Concerning the health hazards the effects of talc 12 on the chest 13 A. I think that you know there was something at 14 least approaching a consensus of the people writing on this by 15 the 1950s that talc exposed workers sustained lung damage and 16 some of them sustained a little bit and some of them get 17 killed And the dispute since that time has been Well how is 18 it that some of these people get really hurt much worse than 19 others even though they seem to be exposed to comparable 20 concentrations of dusts which are generally referred to as 21 talc 22 Q. So I take it that you would not then agree with 23 that statement 24 A. The statement by the time we get through defining 25 terms maybe I could agree with it C.S.R. ASSOCIATES Q. Well then I gave you the opportunity to tell me any talc product about which that that would be true A. The only talc product about which such a statement might be approaching true would be something that would be like a mineralogically pure talc of a type which had not been the subject of medical reports previously where this material is looked at for its own effects independent of other types of minerals with which talc is usually found Q. And then any other type of talc you would not 10 agree that that statement would be true for any other type of 11 talc 12 MR HAYS I am not going to let him be sucked 13 into answering a question that is set up like that 14 First of all he had stated that he did not do an 15 exhaustive research of later articles on talc He 16 did early articles in order to establish the 17 availability of literature at an early point in time 18 beginning back in the 30s I believe 19 MR HINKLE Are you instructing -- 20 MR HAYS I am clarifying what's happened here 21 You are saying some doctor has made a statement and 22 he's my witness that nobody knew about pure talc and 223 its causing any problems until 1984. And I am telling 24 you that is not so and he's not testified about that 25 MR HINKLE Are you done C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 325 325 325 MR HAYS Maybe maybe not Let's see what you continue with I don't think that is fair MR HINKLE Well Jim I really don't care whether you think it's fair or not because I do think it's fair MR HAYS You have got to make a fair representation of what a witness said And I don't think that's accurate MR HINKLE Well then you and I can discuss 10 this in more detail when we get the transcript back 11 But let me make sure that the Doctor understands my 12 question 13 Q. By Mr. Hinkle That the statement made that 14 prior to 1984 there was no consensus in the medical community 15 concerning the effects of the talc in the chest That 16 statement might be true about some theoretically absolutely 17 pure talc which has never been dealt with in the literature 18 before right Is that what you said 19 A. In terms of human case report data 20 Q. Okay 21 A. I think that that might conceivably be true 22 because the types of talc that have been the subject of all 23 these reports were mineralogically speaking different types 24 of mixtures 25 Q. Now with reference to that statement again that C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 326 is that prior to 1984 there was no consensus in the medical community concerning the effects of talc in the chest that statement would not be true as to any other type of talc that you know of right A. I really do find it hard to follow some of these questions you are asking me I realize you have got something in mind but I can't for the life of me even follow what it is you are asking me Q. Try to just listen to the question 10 A. I am trying 11 Q. And frame your response to the question Here is 12 the statement Prior to 1984 there was no consensus in the 13 medical community concerning the effects of talc in the chest 14 That's the statement 15 MR HAYS That is your hypothetical statement 16 MR HINKLE That is my hypothetical statement 17 MR HAYS And you are saying it is a fact but 18 you're saying it is a hypothetical and you're asking 19 him to respond to a hypothetical 20 MR HINKLE This is something that I have 21 been told 22 Q. By Mr. Hinkle I understand that you would agree 23 to that statement with referrence to some theoretical talc that 24 has never been dealt with in the literature before that is 25 absolutely pure and so forth and so on Right That might be C.S.R. C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES true about such a product if one existed right MR HAYS I can't follow that line of questioning I don't know if the Doctor can or not Are you still dealing with a hypothetical Q. By Mr. Hinkle Isn't that what you said Dr. Castleman A. I am looking -- MR HAYS Only in response to a hypothetical did he answer that question I don't want that 10 boot strapped into something that is not a hypothetical 11 and I get a feeling that it's kind of fudging over 12 the edge a little bit I may be wrong but there seems 13 to be a fudge factor I'm picking up on 14 MR HINKLE You are too sensitive Jim 15 It's a straightforward question 16 MR HAYS Boy if that is straightforward 17 you have got a new definition of straightforward 18 Q. By Mr. Hinkle Did I or did I not accurately 19 paraphrase your response to that question Dr. Castleman 20 A. I believe that you have done a reasonable job of 21 that 22 2 Let's move to the next one 23 MR HAYS Let him finish his answer 24 THE WITNESS I do not see in the scientific 25 literature any cases of individuals -- I don't know C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 328 I don't think I see maybe there is some MR HAYS Are you distinguishing that from pure talc that's been discussed earlier in the literature which we've commented on Q. By Mr. Hinkle Will you now respond to this question With the exception of the theoretically pure talc that has never been dealt with in medical literature will you agree or disagree with this statement Prior to 1984 there was no consensus in the medical community concerning the effects of 10 talc on the chest 11 MR HAYS I am going to object to that question 12 That is impossible to answer A hypothetical and a 13 hypothetical It's too complex 14 MR HINKLE It's a statement He can agree with 15 it or not agree with it That's all I'm asking Jim 16 MR HAYS He can say he has no opinion or 17 doesn't understand the question or whatever he wants to 18 I just think that is unfair A hypothetical and a 19 hypothetical is the way I see that You are asking if 20 somebody has said that there was a talc that we really 21 don't think exists that might exist - 22 Q. By Mr. Hinkle Let me do it this way I am 23 making the statement Dr. Castleman today that prior to 1984 24 there was no consensus in the medical community concerning the 25 effects of talc in the chest Do you agree with me Or do you C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 329 329 329 disagree with me A. I would say yes and no I would say yes there was a dispute about how harmful talc in a mineralogically pure sense how harmful it was but no there was not that much of a dispute about the fact that talc as used in industry has caused disease in a number of countries and quite a bit of it in the United States And that that has been reported both for fibrous -- has been reported for both fibrous and fibrous talcs and certainly before 1984 10 Q. With regard to the way that these medical articles 11 are received by the medical community would you defer to the 12 opinions of a board certified radiologist 13 A. Maybe maybe not 14 Q. What type of board certified radiologist maybe 15 might you defer to 16 A. Well I mean I've been asked questions like that 17 in the context of asbestos for example And I honestly don't 18 believe that there is a doctor living who is more qualified to 19 talk about or at least certainly not on the basis of board 20 certifications no doctor on the basis of qualifications and 21 certifications would be more qualified than I am to talk about 22 how the literature on asbestos was received because I have 23 written my doctoral thesis about that and I've investigated 24 that for a number of years 25 Q. I am not asking you about asbestos There are C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 330 plenty of people who are going to ask you about that A. Let me just finish MR CROSBY I move to strike the initial response as nonresponsive and in a continued effort to volunteer information that is nonresponsive Let's move on to something that is being asked THE WITNESS I am answering the question and I'm going to finish my answer MR HAYS That was responsive and you answer the 10 question the way you feel you need to 11 THE WITNESS This is simply not a matter 12 that is simply measureable in terms of credentials 13 and board certifications Board certifications don't 14 make a doctor an authority on the history of how medical 15 information was received on the hazards of talc No 16 board certification is going to impress me at all about 17 whether a doctor was aware of that I would be as much 18 impressed if that doctor was a participant in the arena 19 of the development of medical and scientific knowledge 20 like Dr. Kleinfeld was for years That is the kind of 21 person who would probably be able to give us the best 22 insite on how a lot of this information was received 23 not only by the scientific community but by the medical 24 and industrial community And that is not a matter of 25 board certification That is a matter of being active C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 331 331 331 in the field that we're talking about Q. By Mr. Hinkle So if someone were active in the field and had contributed to the development of the scientific knowledge and had made notable contributions to the literature you might be willing to defer to that board certified radiologist with regard to how these medical articles were received by the medical community Is that a fair statement A. Yes certainly covering time that the individual was involved in the research not necessarily the time 10 preceeding it I mean if this is somebody who came along in 11 the 1980s that doesn't necessarily give them tremendous 12 insites about what was going on in the 1930s and 40s 13 Q. Would you agree with me that a board certified 14 pathologist who has made significant contributions to the 15 medical literature and to advancement of knowledge in this 16 field would be someone who would be in a better position to 17 evaluate the pathological evidence than you would be 18 A. Again are we talking about the history of the 19 development of knowledge about talc as a hazard Or are we 20 talking about the pathology of an individual case 21 Q. Both 22 A. In the latter case I would defer to a pathologist 23 in an area which is purely a matter of pathology 24 In the former case again it just depends on the nature 25 and extent of the person's involvement in being involved in the C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 332 field and reading about the kinds of stuff that was going on over a period of history that we're interested in Q. Would you agree with me that a pathologist would be in a better position to evaluate the merit and shortcomings of these various studies that we have been discussing A. In the case of some of the studies a pathologist who has contributed in the field of talc pneumoconiosis certainly might be able to pick up shortcomings and limitations in some of these articles that I might not see 10 Again I am not here to testify about the truth 11 contained in the articles themselves I am here to testify as 12 I understand it about the notice to manufacturers and sellers 13 of talc that people back in the 30s and 40s and 50s and 14 60s and 70s that thought talc was deadly stuff or at least 15 dangerous stuff 16 Q. You have been working since Friday to perfect your 17 expertise in the field of the development of medical and 18 scientific knowledge as to the hazards of talc 19 A. I have been working since 1970 and '71 off and on 20 to perfect my knowledge in the field of the hazards of talc 21 And one of the exhibits here is a 1972 letter to the Food and 22 Drug Administration to try and limit the use of talc in certain 23 kinds of products 24 Q. These articles that you have been referring to as 25 the basis for the notice that you mentioned to the C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 333 manufacturers was assembled and delivered to you some Friday and some today correct A. Some of it's been accumulating on my desk for some time Mr. Edholm has been sending me things over a period of weeks if not months But it's true I haven't sat down and examined the material and I am making no you know I am not disputing that I haven't really sat down and tried to examine this as a continuous body of knowledge in the manner that we have been discussing today until the last week or so 10 Q. You are aware that there are individuals in this 11 country who have been spending years and years to follow 12 document and contribute to the development of scientific and 13 medical knowledge as to the effects of talc you are aware of 14 that 15 A. Yes sure 16 Q. You were asked to do a survey concerning the early 17 knowledge of the dangers associated with exposure to talc 18 A. Yes 19 Q. What does that mean in terms of years 20 A. Well in my mind it would mean prior to the late 21 1970s 22 Q. All right 22 A. Particularly prior to 1970 24 Q. Have you seen any medical literature which 25 establishes a definite link between inhalation of fibrous C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 334 talc - Well let me ask it this way first Have you seen any medical literature which in your mind establishes a definite link between inhalation of fibrous talc and cancer A. Not cancer I don't think Q. Okay A. Again I really feel that I have not done an exhaustive review of the literature that would deal with that I had only begun to look at that when I quit my review on history of knowledge about the hazards of talc I think the 10 information you are asking about would mainly be the subject of 11 publications over the last 12 to 13 years 12 MR HAYS And again you are dealing with a 13 definition that as I understand it was not available 14 at certain periods of time in the history of the 15 literature of talc 16 MR HINKLE Is that a statement by you or an 17 inquiry by you 18 MR HAYS We discussed it before and you say 19 fibrous talc and the import of your question is 20 there was nothing dealing with that particular product 222 in the literature pertaining to cancer prior to a 22 certain time when the distinction between fibrous 23 and fibrous was not made at a certain time It was 24 not made until later in the history of medicine 25 concerning talc disease So it's misleading from that C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 335 335 335 standpoint MR HINKLE You may be surprised when you take some of the experts of some of the defendants in this case MR HAYS experts say I won't be surprised at anything your Q. By Mr. Hinkle So do I understand then that the answer to the question is that you are not aware of any medical literature which links in your mind inhalation of fibrous 10 talc and cancer true 11 A. That is true And with the caveat that I haven't 12 really looked for information that would cover the period of 13 the late 70s onward 14 Q. Are you aware of any information medical 15 information which makes to your mind the link between 16 inhalation of fibrous talc and cancer 17 A. Oh sure Kleinfeld studies 18 Q. The year do you recall 19 A. The first one was 1967 27 Q. Anything prior to 1967 27 A. I don't think so 22 MR HINKLE I believe Dr. Castleman that 23 is all that I have at this time 24 THE WITNESS I am glad we may be finished 25 with talc today C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 336 MR CROSBY Before we get to the next talc person I've look for the Food and Drug letter can you give me an exhibit number so I can pull that and be reading it if there are other talc questions MR HAYS I have 4:57 MR WAGNER I just a few questions THE WITNESS Let's have it 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 22 25 BY MR WAGNER CROSS EXAMINATION Q. First of all you have testified with regard to reviewing literature with regard to certain subjects Is there medical literature pertaining to the exposure of workers in rubber or tire plants with regard to the exposure to carbon black A. There probably is but I haven't looked for it Q. All right You stated earlier you are not familiar with the major components or major products that go into making tires A. Well I'm not familiar with all the components in the products I think is what I said I have certainly heard of carbon black being used in tire manufacturing Q. Sure My question sir is Have you made any inquiry or has anyone ever advised you with regarding to what type of products workers in tire plants may be exposed to on C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 337 337 337 1 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 more frequent or a greater degree than they are to talc A. I think it just depends on where in the plant the worker is employed That some workers are going to be more exposed to some things and others are going to be more exposed to others It just depends on their particular job and classification and location in the factory Q. I take it that prior to -- let me ask you directly sir Prior to the start of this deposition had you ever held yourself out to be an expert with regard to talc A. No. Although I have been involved in trying to get government regulations of talc exposure to the public controlled since 1972 Q. Would it be a fair statement to say you have been involved in quite a few different products types of things with regard to trying to get the government to control it A. Right yes I have primarily carcinogens Q. In this regard how many ~- or can you tell me about what types of products you have testified with regard to as being an expert that we know that you have testified in the past with regard to asbestos material and likewise that we now know that you are testifying here as an expert with regard to talc have you testified with regard to other such products A. No not in civil proceedings Perhaps with the possible exception of dye intermediates in one case in a case involving Dupont But it was also an asbestos case CSP CSP ASSOCTAMES Q. All right As far as you recall you have never held yourself out to be an expert except in the items we have just mentioned here is that right A. Yes that's correct Well in civil proceedings I mean obviously I have been involved in administrative rule making and federal regulations of a whole host of chemicals and other products But in terms of civil litigation the limitation would be as you have expressed There are experts and experts and it's just a question of what you mean by an 10 expert and I just want it to be clear that we're talking about 11 experts in the context of expert witnesses in civil litigation 12 MR HAYS I have got 5:01 13 MR WAGNER I thought you meant I had three 14 minutes rather than three questions 15 MR HAYS You did have three minutes Have you 16 got another question 17 MR WAGNER I'll pass the witness Thank you 18 Doctor 19 20 Whereupon the deposition proceedings were concluded 21 for the day to resume at 9:00 on July 7th 22 23 24 25 v 15 16 17 18 19 20 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF OKLAHOMA ) ) Plaintiff ) ) VS. ) ) ARMSTRONG WORLD INDUSTRIES ) INC VERMONT TALC COMPANY ) et al ) Defendants ) COPY ******************************* *********** *********** ******************************* ******************************* *********** ******************************* ******************************* ******************************* *********** *********** *********** *********** *********** ******************************* ******************************* ******************************* *********** *********** VOLUME II OF THE DEPOSITION OF BARRY CASTLEMAN on behalf of the Defendants on July 5th 6th and 7th 1989 in Baltimore Maryland ******************************* REPORTED BY Marjorie Parker Miller C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 340 BY MR GOSS CROSS EXAMINATION Q. Dr. Castleman you had testified yesterday when you gave us a summary of your opinion that by the 1950s talc manufacturers should have taken certain steps to inspect for potential hazards as I recall was a portion of your summary What were those steps that a manufacturer of talc should have taken to inspect for hazards A. Well they could have used the means at their 10 disposal to determine whether their product was a health 11 hazard and that would be by conducting animal studies such as 12 had been done at the Saranac Laboratory in the late 1930s and 13 the early 1940s 14 They certainly could have done medical monitoring of 15 their longest exposed employees They could have gotten in 16 touch with some of their customers who had been purchasing 17 their material for a long time and engaged in the discussion 18 about whether medical monitoring of workers in those plants was 19 showing any lung disease That sort of thing 20 Q. You had also mentioned in your earlier testimony 21 that a mineralogical analysis of talc should have been 22 performed Is that also one of the things that should have 22 been undertaken by a manufacturer of talc 22 A. Yes I think so Although one would assume they 25 did that in the normal course of business for reasons having C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 341 01 10 11 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 nothing to do with health effects But sure they could certainly have looked at their products in the light of developing medical knowledge that was pointing to certain constituants of industrial talc being more worrisome Q. So they should have analyzed their talc to determine whether it contained substances such as tremolite A. Yes substances such as those which were being name in the literature as more worrisome aspects of industrial talcs Q. Those substances included tremolite and what other substances were named in the literature A. Well the literature named tremolite the literature named fibers or abestiform fibers generally and the literature referred to silica Q. Anything else A. Those are the things that stand out in my memory as the things that were mentioned to the extent that attention was called to specific constituants of the talc aside from the called pure mineral talc itself Q. I would like for you to enlighten me about these animal studies that you say should have been performed What type of animal study would you have conducted had you been a talc manufacturer in the 1950s A. Product manufacturers could have exposed animals to inhalation of the talc sufficient numbers of animals C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 342 1 exposed for basically lifetime inhalation studies Q. Perhaps you didn't understand my question I am not asking what they could have done I am asking what you would have done had you been a talc manufacturer in the 1950s what type of animal study would you have performed A. That is the kind of study that I would have performed Q. How many animals -- Well first of all what type of animal would you choose 10 A. I would have consulted with the experts at Saranac 11 Lab or some other comparable institution and asked them what 12 they thought was the most appropriate animal model 13 Q. And how many animals would you expose the product 14 to 15 A. I would have consulted the experts on that as 16 well if I were a talc manufacturer 17 Q. Do you know if any experiments on talc were ever 18 done by any laboratories such as the Saranac Lab on talc 19 A. Yes there were some studies done 20 Q. When did those studies begin 21 A. The Saranac Lab did some studies between 1937 and 22 1941 according to Dr. Scheper's report 23 Q. But you are stating that as of the 1950s the talc 24 manufacturers should have conducted additional studies because 25 those were not conclusive C.S.R. ASSOCIATES A. Well the studies that were done by Schepers were for one talc and different manufacturers were selling different products called talc so I don't think that the studies that were conducted would have necessarily told you everything you wanted to know about all the talcs that were being sold in this country Q. What type of medical monitoring would you have performed had you been a talc manufacturer in the 1950s A. Well a standard sort of thing for industries 10 handling potentially hazardous dusts was first of all a 11 employment physical This was done as a business matter to 12 prevent the hiring of people who already had sustained lung 13 damage from dust and who might in the course of time file 14 compensation claims And then periodic medical monitoring 15 including chest ray clinical examinations pulmonary 16 function tests such as were reported in the literature in 17 describing adverse effects of talc during the period of time of 18 the 1950s Q. How often would these periodic medical 20 examinations be done 21 A. Every two years or every two or three years The 22 railroad medical doctors had their own protocol for doing that with fibrogenic dusts which were published in the proceedings 24 of the medical section of the American Association of Railroads 25 in the early 1950s C.S.R. ASSOCIATES Q. Do you know whether the tire plants had any such protocols for periodic medical exams A. I don't know Q. Well you are aware of the Firestone study that was done in 1948 or 1949 are you not A. Yes well the one we discussed yesterday Q. The Hogue and Mallette study A. Yes Q. So Firestone did undertake to determine the effect 10 of talc on its workers did it not 11 A. Evidently they did conduct one study 12 Q. Dr. Castleman are you familiar with the term 13 platy talc 14 A. Yes I have seen it in the literature 15 MR HINKLE Excuse me Dr. Castleman I am 16 sorry to interrupt you Would you be kind enough to 17 speak up so those of us at the end of the table could 18 hear you 19 THE WITNESS I would suggest that two or three seats that are closest be occupied by those of you who are having any trouble hearing me I am not feeling terribly well this morning and it's a little hard to speak up MR HAYS We have four chairs down here and there is another one right there You all can move 347 Q. And you believe it is important for any scientist who holds himself out as an expert witness in the area of asbestos and health hazards of asbestos to keep current with the scientific knowledge dealing with asbestos do you not A. Well I do that mainly because I am active in the arena of regulation of asbestos today and so my activities which go far beyond civil litigation on asbestos obligate me to try and keep up with the latest things that are being 9 discussed different types of controversies the latest flock 10 of red herrings being published in the scientific literature 11 and so forth that one has come to see over the years in dealing 12 with asbestos and health 13 Q. In any type of science no matter what type of 14 science you are dealing with it's important if you are an 15 expert in the area to keep up with the current development of 16 the knowledge in that particular science is it not 17 A. Well it is if you are going to be currently 18 active in current disputes and current controversies over the 19 current state of knowledge The reason I haven't tried to 20 thoroughly familiarize myself with current articles on talc is that my role in the area of talc is much more limited than it 22 is in the area of asbestos and health And I have simply 23 agreed to look into the history of knowledge on talc and so 24 it's for that limited purpose that I am still working on talc 25 today although I had an interest in it since around 1972 or - ae. ee. 300CATS 300CATS 300CATS 300CATS COMA 348 so Q. Well Dr. Castleman I think you anticipated my next question because I really did not ask you about talc I had really asked you about asbestos in other areas of scientific development But as far as talc you are not familiar as I understand it with the current state of scientific literature is that correct A. Well I have looked at some such literature and I have an idea what the current state of knowledge is on talc but I haven't done the kind of thorough and extensive reading 11 that I would do if I were engaged in controversies over you 12 know the current need to regulate talc as you know some kind 13 of a consumer product or other Then I would need to be able 14 to discuss the fine points of medical and scientific literature relating to the state of current knowledge on the hazards of 16 products 17 Q. Do you draw a distinction between current 18 regulation and current litigation 19 A. Yes in the sense that I am involved in litigation 20 as a state of the art witness as something of a historical witness rather that someone who's a medical witness testifying about the current state of medical knowledge on the subject Q. You had made the statement on our first day of 24 testimony that you are doing the same thing with talc as you 25 did with asbestos Essentially that statement is not entirely 349 correct is it You have not done the same thing with talc as you have with asbestos in that you have not kept up to date with current literature concerning talc A. Well I don't recall the context of the statement but for the purpose of what we have been discussing the last two days and what we're going to be doing today my involvement in the cases is parallel in the sense that I am presenting information on what was historically available about the hazards of talc in the scientific literature And this is 10 analogous to the kind of presentation that I do on the state of 11 knowledge about asbestos I developed over the 30s 40s 50s 12 and 60s The only difference I suppose is that I am also 13 engaged or have been engaged continue to be engaged in 14 government regulation of asbestos in a current context separate 15 from civil litigation entirely and this obligates me to have 16 rather fluent current knowledge about the literature on 17 asbestos 18 Q. You had made the statement earlier that talc had 19 been indicted and I want to ask you about that term because 20 quite often you know as a lawyer I may look at terms 21 differently from the way a scientist does And generally the 22 word indicted to a lawyer means that someone had been charged 23 with crime Are you aware that anyone or that talc or that 24 any talc manufacturer had been charged with any type of crime 25 A. Well I wasn't using the word as a lawyer I was ft oa 13 ACCONTIMBa ACCONTIMBa 350 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 using it as a layman But talc has been charged with causing illness and disease and lung damage and in that sense it was indicted in the literature by people who were writing articles saying workers exposed to talc are suffering damage to their health That is the sense in which I used the word Q. And the literature today is still changing and however you are not aware of any of the most recent changes in the literature concerning talc and its possible health hazards A. I wouldn't say that But I am not as knowledgeable as I might be if I spent a lot more time reading current literature about the health effects of talc and I am not totally unaware of what is in the current literature I just don't -- haven't canvassed the current literature examined it the way I have with asbestos or the way I have even with historic literature on talc MR GOSS I don't have any further questions MR CROSBY Mr. Hood has a scheduling problem and I have agreed to let him go head of me if you don't have any problems with that he will go before I go MR HAYS Anymore talc people that want to ask questions I think we ought to finish that up first MR CROSBY My understanding was that was the last questioning for talc I don't know whether I was wrong or not f ae,r ACCONTIMNA 351 MR HAYS Any further questions on talc from anyone MR HINKLE Not that I know of Mr. Hays I don't think all the talc people are present MR GOSS Not to say that questions may not arise after further questioning today MR HAYS All right Since no one has anymore questions about talc let's go ahead with asbestos CROSS EXAMINATION 10 BY MR HOOD 11 Q. Dr. Castleman you have been listed as a witness 12 as an environmental engineer who has been consulted been a 13 consultant to the United States Counsel on Environmental 14 Quality OSHA and the Environmental Protection Agency Are 15 you aware of that 16 A. Well that is all true 17 Q. And it's anticipated that your testimony will 18 include but will not be limited to the development of 19 scientific knowledge concerning the hazard of asbestos talc 20 soapstone and clay Have you in the last two days told us all 21 opinions you have on those subjects and anticipate telling a 22 jury in these trials in Oklahoma 23 A. I think so Again it depends on what sorts of 24 questions I will actually be asked in trial 25 Q. Are there any other bases of your opinions other C.S.RC..S.R. ASSOCIATES 354 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 22 23 24 25 than what you have given us here in your testimony in the last two days MR HAYS I will be questioning Dr. Castleman about clay later in the day So other than that MR HINKLE In that regard the attorney who represented the clay manufacturer based upon Dr. Castleman's assertion that he was not an expert has left us MR HAYS Well he was here and he heard me state on the record that I would be questioning about clay If he wanted to leave that's his option MR HINKLE Well I just want it clear that he was relying on the Doctor's statement that he was no expert and not on your statement MR HAYS I saw you all conversing about it earlier during the deposition I figured something like that would happen it doesn't surprise me a bit But I told him I was going to question on clay and I gave him the articles yesterday the exhibits and had him look at them so he knows I am going to ask about it Q. By Mr. Hood So then Doctor the answer to my question is what A. I don't remember your question Q. Have you given us the bases of your opinions on those subjects C.S.R. C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 353 2 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 A. I think so Again a matter of clay being in the literature including some of the literature that is already marked as exhibits is something that we can certainly talk about a little bit more Q. But other than the clay subject we have heard then the bases of your opinions and your opinions as they apply to these cases A. Well I don't know that we have said much about asbestos but you know very well what my opinions are in connection with historical development of knowledge about asbestos Q. All right sir Mr. Crosby had asked you about your contact with Mr. Hays Is he the only attorney in the tire worker industry with whom you have had contact who has brought tire worker cases A. I have been in contact with the Casey Gerry firm but I don't think about tire worker cases Q. Any other lawyers A. I have met Gordon Stemple but I don't know that I have ever had any formal involvement with him in this litigation Q. So you have not given any other attorney permission to list you as a witness in any tire litigation A. Stemple you mean Q. Anyone any lawyer other than Mr. Hays C.S.RC.S. .R. ASSOCIATES 354 2 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 222 23 24 25 A. That is the only one I can think of although there may be -- MR HAYS Are you talking about my firm in its entirety I think he's spoken with John Norman MR HOOD Sure Thank you THE WITNESS There may be firms with which I've dealt in asbestos generally who also have some tire worker cases and they have listed me in them and they haven't bothered to tell me that wouldn't surprise me Q. By Mr. Hood Now we were trying to find out when you were first contacted Can you look back at a bill to determine based on hours spent when you were first contacted by Mr. Hays A. I don't know Q. question There is no way you can tell us the answer to that A. No because you know billing doesn't start until the work starts Q. And the work started a day before the deposition which you have given in this case A. No the gathering of the materials started some months before Q. Your actual review of those materials started the day before C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 355 A. Didn't start then but finished largely 2 concluded 2 Do you keep a record of time spent on the telephone time spent talking to consultants and so forth so you can charge Mr. Hays for that A. No. I just estimate that kind of time if I think it comes to anything significant Q. And you charge him for Mr. Holm's time based on what Mr. Holm's charges you 10 MR HAYS Mister Who 11 MR HOOD Ed Holm 12 MR HAYS That is his last name 13 Q. By Mr. Hood Whatever his name is The 14 researcher in Washington 15 A. Right I either pay Mr. Edholm myself and bill 16 it or I get Mr. Edholm to deal directly with Mr. Hays 17 Q. You have not asked him nor have you yourself 18 conducted any research on the health hazards to tire workers 19 specifically from asbestos 20 A. You mean Edholm Edholm has simply been going to 21 the library 22 Q. Getting what you've asked him to get 23 24 Q. Has he or have you conducted any specific research 25 concerning health hazards to tire workers from asbestos C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 350 exposure A. No. Q. Have you in fact found anything in the world literature which suggests a health hazard to tire workers from asbestos exposure A. The literature on asbestos indicates that people can get exposed to asbestos and get asbestos diseases whether they work in tire plants or elsewhere But I don't recall specific literature focused on asbestos hazards in tire plants 10 It's well known in the industry generally when there is a lot 11 of insulation material available and used there are going to 12 be exposures to asbestos or least there have been in past 13 years 14 Q. Have you reviewed the Harvard studies of tire 15 workers 16 A. I have seen some such studies I remember - 17 these are studies that were done in the mid 70s mid 70s and 18 maybe even into the late 70s Peters and others 19 Q. I am asking you if you have heard of them if you 20 have if you have read them 21 A. I recall that the rubber workers were interested 22 in having some studies done and they engaged some people at 23 Harvard sometime in the mid 70s I guess it was Q. Who were those people engaged What were the 25 names of the doctors or researchers that conducted those C.S.R. ASSOCIATES studies A. I think that Peters was one Wakeman may have been involved This is just from memory Q. Have you ever read any of their works A. I have looked at these things and I've seen some publications along these lines but I can't really remember much about them Q. And you have not produced any here today on your deposition 10 A. No. I think that their focus was not so much on 11 asbestos for one thing but on as I recall more on the 12 different types of chemical exposures that took place in these 13 plants 14 Q. Have you reviewed the works of tire workers and 15 health hazards done at Chapel Hill 16 A. I can't offhand think of such studies Can you 17 give me the name of an author 18 Q. You have not produced any If you have not does 19 that mean you have not reviewed them 20 A. No. I mean I have been reading medical and 21 scientific literature on this kind of thing for a long time 22 Q. Are you aware of specific studies done by the Chapel Hill group of scientists and doctors with regard to the A health hazards of tire workers yes or no 25 A. I might have heard about it if you give me the C.S.R. ASSOCIATES names of the individuals who did the research I don't always notice the university affiliation the research was published by Q. And if you have read it and since you have not produced it you didn't find such works if they exist of significance concerning your opinions in these cases A. I haven't seen that stuff in years Q. So who did them and what they concluded you have no knowledge 10 A. Right As I sit here today I am not aware of the 11 details of such reports or names of the authors I don't think 12 Unless of course if you tell me the names of the authors and 13 the studies that you are talking about that might help me 14 remember 15 Q. And who the lead authors of works out of Chapel 16 Hill were you do not know without me telling you the names of 17 the articles or the authors is that correct 18 A. Well that is mainly because I don't always keep 19 track of the university affiliation of researchers although 20 the researcher's name may be very familiar to me 21 A. You have no future plans for conducting research 22 concerning the health hazards of either asbestos or talc to 23 rubber workers that will apply to your testimony in the 24 Oklahoma cases 25 A. I have no further plans of that kind C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 23 24 25 Q. You do not plan to conduct a site inspection nor to review any records from the Oklahoma plant where these plaintiffs worked A. I have no such plans at this time Q. Nor to inspect any other tire making facility A. Again I might avail myself of the opportunity if I could but I haven't made any plans to do so Q. You do not have any plans to inspect any talc mines or talc manufacturing facilities A. No. Q. You are not going to be a witness on causation in these cases I believe you told Mr. Crosby that A. That's correct Q. And you have produced a list of articles at least the list that you gave to attorney Sutter we have got that now as one of the exhibits A. Well John Sutter's list of articles would certainly be a -- Q. Has that been marked as an exhibit is my question Do we have that list MR CROSBY I believe it's No. 80 MR HOOD Okay Great Q. By Mr. Hood Were did those cases or where did those articles come from that are on that list A. I think that the list was originally prepared by C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 25 me and then added to by me and perhaps by Mr. Sutter as well over a period of time Q. Your work as a consultant to the Environmental -- United States Counsel on Environmental Quality has been as an environmentalist with an environmental group that you have volunteered to do work for A. I was hired by the White House counsel on environmental quality to examine documents involved in the reserve mining company water pollution case and Lake Superior in 1973 Q. Okay And other on than one occasion have you ever done any other work for them A. Not paid consulting no Q. All right As to OSHA what has been your involvement with that A. As a consultant the Occupational Safety and Health Administration employed me to look into the possibility that OSHA regulations on hazardous substances may have caused displacement of hazardous industries to developing countries Q. When was that done A. Ten years ago Q. When was that work concluded A. At that time Q. And as to the EPA what has your involvement been A. Well OSHA and with the EPA I have been involved C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 extensively in different types of rule making as a participant in the rule making as a person who submitted information in connection with the development of government regulations This is above and beyond my role as consultant to any of these agencies Q. This is something you have done on your own as a volunteer A. Or as an employee or consultant to environmental groups like the Natural Resources Defense Counsel or the Environmental Defense Firm I have also been employed as a consultant by the EPA for a period of about two years Q. When was that A. Between 1979 and 1981 Q. In what capacity A. The EPA was considering the possibility of banning asbestos and I was providing information to the EPA in support of efforts to ban asbestos Q. What were the years again A. 1979 to '81 Q. All right sir Now this list Exhibit 80 which is your list of articles when did you first prepare this list A. Well the original list of articles goes back to something that was prepared around 1980 or 1981 Q. When did you add articles that pertain to these cases C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 302 1 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Articles haven't been added for particular use in these cases in the rubber worker cases They simply are an accumulation of articles that has you know that I have become familiar with over the years Q. Okay What you basically have done is collect materials relating to asbestos hazards dating back to the 19th century A. Q. Right And you have produced the materials and articles that you have developed with regard to scientific knowledge concerning the hazards of asbestos talc soapstone and clay A. Yes I have I mean not every single article that I have ever seen but articles which constitute the basis of any opinions I would offer Q. The plaintiff's have listed Morris Kleinfeld as a witness in these cases did you know that A. Yes Q. Have you had any communication with him A. I don't think so I may have written him a letter once years ago But I haven't in connection with this litigation I haven't had any contact with him Q. Are you aware of what his opinions are as they may apply to these cases based on what you have either been told by plaintiff's counsel or learned yourself A. No. All I have to go by or would have to go by C.S.R. ASSOCIATES are the articles that are published that bear his name Q. You have no knowledge yourself of the uses of asbestos in the B.F. Goodrich plant in Miami Oklahoma A. I don't have any specialized knowledge about how asbestos was used I assume it was widely used as insulating materials in the plant MR HINKLE Let me interrupt for a moment This might be a time where we clear something up Jim I have been told that Dr. Kleinfeld is not going 10 to be presented as a witness for the plaintiffs Is 11 that true 12 MR HAYS There is a possibility he may be 13 presented through deposition but not live We just 14 sent out a new witness list so I will discuss this 15 with you off the record later 16 MR HINKLE Let's get that cleared up Because 17 I have been told unequivocally that he will not 18 MR HAYS I will be glad to discuss it with 19 you later Q. By Mr. Hood Do you know how a radiologist can 21 differentiate between the effects of inhalation of talc versus 22 inhalation of asbestos when an ray is viewed 23 A. I know that the literature indicates that there 24 are similarities in the rays but I think that this is a 25 question best posed to radiologists not to me C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. You have never worked for nor have been a consult to any rubber or tire manufacturing company A. No. Q. Can you give me a list of known carcinogens to which workers in the tire manufacturing industry are exposed to A. I don't think I can give you a complete list I have heard of some chemicals that are used there Q. You are not an epidemiologist A. I am not an epidemiologist -- Q. You are not a respiratory -- A. -- per se although epidemiology is one of the tools of my trade Q. You have had no formal training in the field of epidemiology A. Yes I have I have taken courses in epidemiology at Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health Q. When did you take those courses A. In the early 1970s and early 1980s Q. How many such courses did you take A. Maybe seven or eight such courses Maybe ten Q. You do not hold a degree in epidemiology A. No. My degree is in health policy Q. You were in what school when you took those courses C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 305 A. Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health Q. You have never been trained as a respiratory epidemiologist is that correct A. Never heard the term respiratory epidemiologist before Q. So whether there are people who are so specialized you have no knowledge Co A. I suppose there are people who do epidemiological studies on respiratory problems but I have never heard them 10 called respiratory epidemiologists before 11 Q. Now you have been excluded as a witness in how 12 many jurisdictions 13 A. I don't know maybe three maybe four over a 14 period of ten years 15 Q. Where are those jurisdictions 16 MR HAYS You mean jurisdictions in their 17 entirety or particular judges I think there is a 18 legal distinction here The witness may not be 19 understanding One judge limited him in his testimony 20 not the entire jurisdiction 21 Q. By Mr. Hood Let's say judges then 22 A. That is a very good point because I have been 23 excluded by a judge in Chicago but I have also testified in Chicago in front of other judges 25 Q. Which judge in Chicago C.S.R. ASSOCIATES aad A. I think his name was Grady ] Q. Any other -- name the other judges and their locations that have excluded you A. I don't really keep track of the names of the judges but I can give you whatever I remember Q. Okay A. Following Judge Grady's decision a similar 1 decision was made by a judge in the Virgin Islands in St. Croix I think there was a state court judge that also 10 followed Judge Grady in Milwaukee where I had also testified in 11 front of other judges 12 Q. Okay 13 A. I think aside from that there were just a couple 14 of old decisions one in '79 which very much limited me at 15 least this is in Mobile and I mean I recall testifying 16 before the judge but I also recall the judge making some 17 adverse ruling I have forgotten exactly what went on there 18 And in 1982 there was a ruling published in the Federal 19 Reporter by Judge Beckham which very much limited the scope of 20 testimony I would be able to offer although he didn't 21 completely exlcude And of course since that time I have 22 testified numerous times in the State of California both state 23 and federal courts Those last two matters date my 24 obtaining my doctorate from Hopkins School of Hygiene and 25 Public Health C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 300 Q. You have had no training or experience in industrial or occupational medicine A. that Again it's all a question of what you mean by Q. Other than what you have read in literature you have had no formal training certainly A. I have contributed to the literature educated people in the field of industrial medicine Q. That is on your book Asbestos that you are talking 10 about 11 A. No. I am talking about an article called Corporate Influence on Threshold Limit Values that was 13 published in the American Journal of Industrial Medicine that 14 was quite well received by the editor Dr. Selikoff and others 15 who commented on this article 16 MR CROSBY Object to the response as 17 volunteering information not solicited by the question 18 and move to strike it 19 Q. By Mr. Hood You have had no experience working 22 in a tire manufacturing facility 21 A. No. 22 Q. What is done by various employees in a tire 23 manufacturing facility in their daily occupation you have no 24 personal knowledge of 25 A. I have no personal knowledge of C.S.R. ASSOCIATES JU 10 11 125 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. know What a chemist would do in a tire plant you don't A. No I don't know what a chemist would do in tire plant although I can -- there are issues of quality control and so forth that would be attended to by a chemist Q. How a tire is built the building process you have no knowledge of that A. I have some knowledge but it's limited I haven't made a study of the technology of tire manufacturing Q. You don't hold yourself out as an expert in that area A. No. Q. You have no training or experience in the field of psychology or psychiatry A. No aside from one course in colle Q. As to the context of the articles that you have read and their place in history do you have opinions and knowledge A. Yes Q. And that is based upon what you have read in the literature is that correct A. Based upon what is in the literature it's based upon -=- when we talk about asbestos it's based upon a larger review of corporate knowledge and actions as well as what was in the scientific literature And it's based upon interviews C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 with people who were around at the time as well as -- well when I say corporate knowledge I mean all the various types of corporate knowledge evidence that has been developed in the asbestos litigation Q. So it's based upon documents that you have reviewed A. Primarily documents and in some cases statements of individuals that I have contacted Q. Who are you talking about when you say individuals A. Dr. Hueper Dr. Hardy Dr. Mancuso Dr. Angrist Dr. Harold Stewart and some others like that 0 Several of whom are dead A. Yes Q. Have been for some while A. Yes I have been investigating this thing for some while Q. But as to the times these articles were written in the 40s even the 30s 40s 50s and 60s you weren't even an adult at that time were you A. Not until the 60s sometime Q. What is your age A. Forty Q. So then whether or not an article was well known or obscure or how an article was received by the medical C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 371 community when it was published you have no personal knowledge A. I have no personal knowledge although as I say by reading the literature one does get an idea that some articles were widely cited achieved some prominence other articles appear not to have been noticed as much Q. Your research methods as you have identified them has been to go to the index medicus and attempt to obtain a thorough list of articles on a given subject and then to 10 review those articles is that correct 11 A. That is what I did with asbestos I haven't 12 actually done that with talc 13 Q. And you have never done anything as to a specific 14 group of workers known as tire workers or rubber workers 15 A. That's right I haven't focused any research 16 efforts into looking at medical literature developed around 17 tire workers as an occupational group 18 Q. And you told us yesterday that you are not an 19 expert in the field of warning and warning labels or the 20 adequacy of the same 21 A. I feel that I am not a specialist in the field of 22 designing warning labels if that is what you mean by an 23 expert 24 Q. And the same thing with regard to pamphlets 25 concerning the use of materials this is not an area in which C.S.R. ASSOCIATES I'L you are an expert A. I have written materials for the purpose of educating people about health hazards I have written the kinds of pamphlets that you're talking about and I think my experience is relevant in that regard Q. What kind of pamphlets have you written A. Circulars that we handed out to brake mechanics trying to warn them about the hazards of brake repair back in 1972 1973 10 Q. So that if we were defending a suit brought by a 11 brake mechanic and he had read your pamphlet and thereafter had 12 continued to work with materials containing asbestos he would 13 have done so knowingly assuming the risk of danger and disease 14 A. That's a legal question and I don't think I can 15 answer legal questions 16 Q. But I can ask you that question in that kind of 17 case and you would agree that your phamplet would have 18 adequately and fully warned him of the health hazards to which 19 he subjected himself voluntarily correct 20 A. It would have informed him to the the best of my 21 ability at that time about those hazards 22 Q. What is the history of the threshold limit value 23 for talc 24 A. Threshold limit value apparently was set at 20 25 million particles per cubic foot at some time and I can't tell C.S.R. ASSOCIATES you when but I noticed it referred to I think in some of these articles in the 1950s Q. Did it remain unchanged Or has it been changed at all A. I don't know whether it's been changed I think it's been changed for talcs that contain asbestos fibers tremolite fibers Q. And what is the current TLV then A. Well the TLV for that kind of talc would be the 10 same as for asbestos so many fibers per cubic centimeter of 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 air Q. Which is what A. Well I think that right now there is some litigation over that that has been brought by Vanderbilt Talc but the standard I believe is 0.2 fibers per cubic centimeters of air equivalent to 200,000 fibers per cubic meters of air A fiber is longer than five microns in length Q. How long has that been the standard A. Since 1986 Q. Prior to that what was the standard A. It was two fibers per cubic centimeters of air Q. When was that adopted A. That took effect in 1976 as part of a government regulation published in 1972 Q. Prior to that what was the standard C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 374 2 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. For a short time it was five fibers per cubic centimeters of air Q. A. 1972 When was that From December 7th 1971 until June 7th or so Q. And prior to that what was the standard A. Twelve fibers per cubic centimeter Q. From when to when A. From around April of 1971 when OSHA officially went into business until December when they issued the emergency standard for asbestos Q. Prior to December '71 what was the standard A. Prior to then it was open season on workers in the United States as far as the federal government was concerned unless they worked for government contractors doing 10,000 a year in business or more in which case they would have been at least theoretically under the subject to the Walsh Act Provision where the standard was 12 particles per cubic -- MR HOOD Move to strike the answer Q. By Mr. Hood Just tell me what the standard was please prior to December '71 A. The federal standard applied only to government contractors doing 10,000 of business a year or more and that standard was 12 fibers per cubic centimeters of air from around 1969 until 1970 '71 l C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 375 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. What was before that A. Before that there were no -- there was no federal regulation of general industries in the United States Q. What about the American Conference of Governmental Hygienists had they adopted a threshold limit value for asbestos prior to that A. Yes Q. A. air What was that That was five million particles per cubic foot of Q. And that was the standard from when to when A. 1946 until about 1970 Q. And that standard remained uncriticized in the medical literature during that period A. It was not a standard and it was criticized Q. When was it first criticized A. I've listed a number of examples of that in Chapter 4 of my book I can recall a few It was criticized in 1952 by May Mayers It was criticized by Warren Cook in 1956. It was criticized by a number of speakers at the New York Academy of Science Conference that was held in 1964 published in 1965 among them Adding Ley from Great Britain who worked for a British asbestos company and said that U.S. TLV had absolutely no scientific basis whatsoever Q. You have had no training yourself in the field of C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 industrial hygiene A. Yes I have Q. When A. Among the courses that I took at Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health was a course in industrial hygiene ventilation where I designed ventilation systems using relatively simple engineering principles I mean they are simple to cover background in engineering to apply to techniques that are used in designing dust control systems So I have some training in industrial hygiene Q. You are not a certified industrial hygienist A. No. Q. You have taken one course in ventilation apparently A. I've taken one course that was specifically in the design of industrial ventilation and a number of other courses in which various aspects of hygiene were discussed and presented in the Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health Q. Have you seen anything in the literature criticizing TLV for talc A. I haven't really looked that carefully at literature on talc but off the top of my head I can't say that I have seen anything criticized in TLV for talc except perhaps people writing about asbestiform talcs saying that they 377 needed to be regulated like asbestos Q. You have done no work for the tire the tire industries union which is the International Rubber Workers Union A. No. I mean I have had correspondence or at least met with Lou Beliczki over the years Q. When did you meet with him A. I don't know for about 15 years I guess I have known Lou Beliczky 10 Q. And how many times have you met with him 11 A. I usually run into him at some conference or 12 another 13 Q. You haven't discussed with him health hazards to 14 workers in the tire industry from asbestos 15 A. Yes I think so 16 Q. Did he ever recognize such a hazard 17 A. Yes 18 Q. When did he first do that 19 A. I don't know I guess I met with him maybe it 20 was a meeting of the American Public Health Association in Las 21 Vegas a few years ago and we talked about the fact that there 22 were a number of lawsuits being filed over asbestos damage to 23 workers in the rubber industry 24 Q. Did he tell you he thought those cases were 25 frivolous and shouldn't have been brought 378 A. I forget exactly what he told me I remember him feeling that there was -- he was a little apprehensive that some cases might be filed Q. Did he tell you he thought it was a disservice to the union membership for lawyers to file cases about disease that didn't exist in workers that he was monitor of health for A. that I don't recall him saying anything quite like Q. If in fact the workers for whom suits were being 10 brought were not sick would that be a correct statement in 11 your view 12 A. I just don't recall what Beliczky said about that 13 Q. Not Beliczky I am asking you Barry Castleman 14 A. If people are filing lawsuits over claims for 15 disease when there really isn't any medical basis for saying 16 that these people have disease and if large numbers of such 17 claims are being filed it simply means the people who have 18 real problems are going to be waiting in line that much longer 19 to get their day in court and that is a disservice 20 Q. Is it also a disservice to that individual to let 21 him think he has a claim when in fact he medically does not in 22 fact is that correct 23 A. Yes it would be 24 Q. Have you ever worked with an electron microscope 25 A. No I've never operated one 379 Q. Have you ever collected dust to determine the levels of asbestos dust or talc dust in the work environment A. I have assisted in setting up equipment to do sampling on one occasion I can recall while I was a local health official Q. Where was that A. The Civil Defense Building in Towson Maryland Q. What were you testing for or assisting setting up to be tested 10 A. They had sprayed asbestos ceilings and were 11 concerned about what might be in the air 12 Q. Did they determine that the ambient air was such 13 that the asbestos was not dangerous in that location 14 A. They found small quantities of asbestos in the 15 air but nothing approaching the occupational standards 16 Q. What you would find in the ambient air in the 17 urban society 18 A. Probably a little more than that 19 Q. But not enough to cause concern so that it should 20 be removed 21 A. Well we were concerned that we might be creating 22 more of a problem by disturbing that material than by leaving 23 it in place 24 Q. That is the current view as recently as yesterday 25 of the EPA we shouldn't remove asbestos if it's not creating a 380 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 health hazard correct A. I am not sure that is what the EPA said yesterday about removing asbestos Q. That has been their view in the past A. I think the government's view has been that priorities need to be set and the places where the material is in bad condition or deteriorating or is creating a health hazard that that needs to be addressed first and that other places where the material seems to be reasonably in tact the material can be left there for at least some time because we have limited resources to address that Q. You are then of the view that if the asbestos is not friable and not creating sufficient adverse levels in the air within a building that it should be left alone A. Well at least for the time being It doesn't mean that it should be left alone in perpetuity Q. That would apply in a tire worker facility where tires are made A. I am thinking more about building plenums and things of that nature that is very different than an industrial facility Q. How would you know if it's different if you have never been in such a facility A. Because an industrial facility contained -- the asbestos material is in a more -~ is much it seems to me is 381 likely to be exposed to impact is going to require regular maintenance removal repair And thermal insulation on pipes is subjected to heat stress which is very different than the kind of conditions that exist inside of an air plenum where recirculating air is being blown around for an office building It's a totally different situation Q. Go back to the TLV for talc Do you know of any criticism in the literature which causes you to think that industry was writing the talc standards like you think about 10 asbestos 11 MR CROSBY Object to the form of that question 12 THE WITNESS I don't like it either 13 MR CROSBY Move to strike the voluntary response 14 of the witness 15 MR HAYS Are you sure you got that since you 16 are reading the newspaper 17 MR CROSBY I am reading what he called a 18 stuffed paper's account of the EPA ban as he 19 called it on abestos Counsel As and I take it that 20 is part of my job I am on Page B of the Wall Street 21 Journal dated Friday July 7th 1989 in approximately 22 column three 23 MR HAYS Strike all the serving comments 24 what he's reading as his duty as counsel 25 MR CROSBY Counsel I might introduce it If rf Qo 10CAP1 TAMBO 0CAPT10CAPTA AMBO 10M CAB PTAO MBO 382 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you want to help me practice law I would be glad for you to do that sometime on somebody's time besides mine Let's move on THE WITNESS Let's take a break MR HAYS Yes let's take a five minute break MR HOOD The witness would like to take a five minute break We will Whereupon a short recess was taken Q. By Mr. Hood Do you know of any effort by the talc industry to have any effect upon the standard TLV for talc A. No. MR HAYS Let me ask you this sir We asked if there were any further talc questions and there were no further talc questions and we opened this portion of the deposition to go into asbestos It seems to me you're reopening the talc area which of course will reopen the opportunity for talc people to ask questions at a later time it will be utilized as an attempt to continue the deposition I ask you to continue your questions as to asbestos as the talc questions have been exhausted and in fact I think you asked some preliminary questions about talc to determine that when you first started your questioning So I just ask that you stick to asbestos as you planned to , ee. aS 2a RrRrRAMMFRRMRCRS 10 11 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 21 22 23 24 25 wu MR HOOD I have made no commitment to do anything other than examine the witness MR HAYS Well then if you are not going to talk about asbestos I change our agreement and asked Mr. Cosby to begin his questions MR CROSBY My name is Crosby y MR HAYS Crosby I'm sorry MR CROSBY You have already said Hood can go now MR HAYS No. I thought that was with the agreement that he was going to talk about asbestos MR CROSBY I certainly can't control what Mr. Hood asks or does MR HAYS So the agreement is off because it's been breached by you all MR CROSBY I haven't breached anything Mr. Hays I have been sitting over here because you said he could go next MR HAYS You requested that he go next MR CROSBY I asked if he could MR HAYS Yes based on the fact that it had to do with asbestos MR CROSBY basis of it I didn't understand that to be the MR HAYS I asked the question if there were C.S.R. C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES any further talc questions 2 MR HOOD Let me proceed please Q. By Mr. Hood As to articles that you produced Castleman -- MR HAYS I asked everyone that question MR CROSBY Well I'm going to have some questions relating to talc We're all in this lawsuit together MR HAYS You don't have anything to do with 10 talc Are you representing a talc 11 defendant 12 MR CROSBY That is not any of your concern I 13 am here to ask questions on behalf of my client 14 MR HAYS Well then I am going to ask that you 15 continue on with your line of questioning or you 16 waive it 17 Mr. Hood Can I proceed with questions -- 18 MR HAYS I object to any questions on your 19 behalf at a later time 20 MR CROSBY Well just a minute 21 MR HAYS If you are not going to go ahead and 22 ask your question the way you are supposed to -- 23 MR CROSBY If that is your contention then 24 if I now stop and interrupt Mr. Hood are you going to 25 preclude him from finishing his line of questioning C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 385 MR HAYS No. I want talc finished up MR CROSBY I can't finish up talc I can't finish up asbestos if I start right now This witness has provided us documents that I have never seen in his file in all my years I have got lots of questions I have to ask him some of them are in the files of asbestos that relate to talc MR HAYS I am sure you will try to continue this deposition for a month if you can 10 MR HOOD Can I proceed please 11 MR HAYS Over my objection 12 Q. By Mr. Hood As to the documents that you have 13 produced would you tell us first generally how these documents 14 in your opinion would have placed any manufacturer of asbestos 15 materials on notice of potential disease hazard to tire workers 16 in their work environment 17 A. Well the medical literature of asbestos indicates 18 that people who do pipe covering who are exposed to insulation 19 products get asbestos diseases and there is nothing in the 20 medical or scientific literature to indicate that people who do 21 that kind of work with those kind of products wouldn't get 22 those kinds of diseases if they were handing the materials in a 23 rubber plant 24 Q. So there is nothing then in those articles that 25 specifically refer to such a health risk to tire workers Cf e424 DPD ACCOCTIMPO 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Not as tire workers no Q. Have you contacted any industrial health official or former official with the Goodrich Goodyear Firestone General Tire Yates Kelly Springfield or Michelin companies A. No. Q. So with regard to the known or suspected health problems in their companies at various times you have no knowledge A. No. Q. Have you contacted any officials with the United Rubber Workers Union or their industrial health personnel about known or suspected health problems at various times in history A. Well I have known Lou Beliczky for a number of years Q. Specifically what if anything has he told you concerning his knowledge of health hazards from exposure to asbestos to tire workers A. I can't recall anything about asbestos Our initial concerns and contacts were about chemical hazards I think MR RHODES Excuse me Mr. Hood I'm sitting right across from Mr. Castleman and I can barely hear you It sounds to me like you are mumbling Can you enunciate a little bit better MR HAYS If there is a problem hearing C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 387 considering we're in a large room and at a large table why don't we get a microphone brought down if they've got one here MR RHODES I am four feet away from him MR HAYS You are not four feet away you're eight feet away eight to ten feet away MR HOOD Do you want to measure it or can I proceed please MR HAYS Well if they can't hear let's get a 10 microphone down Somebody can order that 11 Q. By Mr. Hood Do you know who with that union was 12 responsible for its membership's health and safety 13 A. No. 14 Q. Do you know if that union was ever concerned with 15 the health and safety of tire workers or rubber workers from 16 exposure to asbestos 17 A. I am sure they were at some point but I don't 18 know when it started 19 MR GOSS I didn't understand that answer 20 MR HOOD I am sure they were at some point but 223 I don't know when it started 22 MR HAYS There is a table down at this end 23 that is not in use Four of you can sit around that 24 if you would like to 25 Q. By Mr. Hood Do you know of any complaints made of CoC PD ASSOCIATES >" >" by industrial health officials of the United Rubber Workers Union or the tire manufacturing companies regarding the exposure of the employees to either asbestos or talc A. No. I just don't know anything about the record of such complaints that may or may not have been made Q. Are you aware of any epidemiological studies of asbestos health hazards in the tire worker industry A. Well I think the -- I think I mentioned that I glanced at some kind of a NIOSH report plant survey 10 Q. That was done in 1970 is what you said I think on 11 Wednesday 12 A. I thought it was more recent than that But I 13 haven't seen it since I thought it was in the 80s 14 Q. You never have produced that report here in this 15 deposition Can you further identify it for us and can you 16 produce it to us 17 A. No. I think it must have just been thrown out 18 Mr. Hays sent me materials sent me a lot of articles from the 19 1980's and things about talc and I just took one look at how 20 recent they were and excluded them from my review because I 21 didn't feel like -- 22 Q. That NIOSH report did not reference any health 23 hazard to tire workers from exposure to asbestos 24 A. Well I have forgotten exactly I think they did 25 some chest rays on the guys I just took a look at how C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 389 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 recent it was and put it aside I was mainly interested in earlier medical literature Q. Are you aware of any case report where a doctor attributes asbestosis to a building occupant and that being his sole exposure A. Well if a person worked in an industrial facility - MR HAYS That is such an unfair question I started just to let it slide because I am sure the Doctor can handle it But you are saying exposure in building Now what does that mean Does that mean an industrial setting A home Does that mean a -- MR HOOD A building where -- I'll explain it for you since you asked that MR HAYS All right MR HOOD Assuming the witness needs that Q. By Mr. Hood In a asbestos manufacturing building A. You mean like a steel mill Q. Yes any kind of location A. There is certainly plenty of cases of steel mill workers and people like that who develop asbestos disease Q. Of those people have they been working as maintenance or insulation people in those facilities C.S.R. C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 350 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Well they work -- certainly some of them have worked as pipe fitters people like that where they may have actually touched the asbestos themselves and others are just working around it And it's a well established risk to workers in industrial settings generally where there is a lot of asbestos insulation around asbestos diseases Some people are going to get . Q. And when was that first reported in the literature A. Oh in the 1930s Q. And what was that article A. There were articles about clerks in asbestos manufacturing plants boiler riveters 1934 1935 Wooden Glowing in '34 Page in '35 Chemical plant workers with asbestosis in 1939 Q. Who reported that A. I think the author was named Arnold British Journal tuberculosis Q. All of those are case reports Are there any epidemiological studies A. Epidemiological studies started to come later There were studies of lung cancer access in workers who did who were described as boiler makers steam fitters and asbestos workers Q. When was that C.S.R. ASSOCIATES IIL A. Breslow American Journal of Public Health 1954 Q. What about asbestos workers A. Well I mean steam fitters are not asbestos workers Boiler makers are not asbestos workers Q. Okay A. Plumbers other people have been reported as victims of asbestosis in case reports as well Q. I'm asking about epidemiological studies now Were there any before 1980 10 A. Aside from Breslow I am sure there were but I 11 can't think of it off the top of my head 12 Q. What is your understanding of the asbestos 13 exposure history of the tire workers from the Miami Oklahoma 14 plant 15 A. Well I gather that there was a lot of asbestos 16 used as a thermal insulation material in the plant both in 17 terms of specialized equipment used in rubber manufacturing as 18 well as general pipe covering insulation that existed widely 19 throughout the plant 20 Q. Where do you generally gain this general 21 information 22 A. Just from conversations I have had with people 23 Q. Who are those people 24 A. I suppose I may have talked to Lou Beliczky about 25 that but I am not sure And I have read things about rubber C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 10 11 12 13 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 processing and rubber plants tire plants maybe some of those articles by John Peters and other people that sort of describe the way the plants are laid out It's obvious that there is a lot of heat involved and a need for thermal insulation in an industrial process like tire making Q. Who is John Peters A. He's one of the authors of medical studies of tire workers Q. Is he considered an expert in this area A. I suppose so Q. Has he written extensively in the area A. He's written in the area Q. Have you ever met with him A. I don't think so Q. Do you know what his opinions are concerning a health risk from exposure to asbestos in tire workers A. No. Q. Who are some of the other scientists or authors who you have conferred with that have written about the tire worker or rubber industry A. I can't think of anybody with whom I have discussed the rubber industry I sat through some presentations back in 1976 some of the earlier Q I guess it was some of the earlier studies that were being done Q. Who is Dr. Thomas Mancuso C.S.R. ASSOCIATES JJJ JJJ A. medicine He's a physician in the field of industrial Q. Is he highly respected A. I think so Q. Has he written in the field of industrial health hazards to workers in the rubber or tire industry A. I don't know if he has or not Q. Has he written in the filed of industrial health hazards to workers from asbestos A. Yes 11 Q. Is he an expert in those areas in your view 12 A. Well he was -- yes 13 Q. And have you read his works 14 A. Some 15 Q. And the ones that you have read have dealt with 16 asbestos is that correct 17 A. Well they dealt with asbestos chromates 18 Q. Are you aware of any reported health risk by 19 Mancuso from asbestos to tire workers 20 A. No. 21 Q. Do you know who Dr. R.R. Monson is o 22 A. I have heard the name 23 Q. Do you know if he's written anything in the 24 medical literature or scientific literature concerning the 25 health hazards to tire workers or rubber workers C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 394 A. I believe he has Q. A. together Have you read any of his works I may have I think he and Peters were working Q. Do you know if he or Dr. Peters ever concluded that there was a health risk to asbestos or from asbestos to tire workers or rubber workers A. I don't know whether they ever investigated that Q. Whether they investigated it or not do you know 10 what they concluded 11 A. No I don't know if they made any such 12 conclusions 13 Q. And you have not reviewed the literature to see 14 what they have written on this subject 15 A. No. Well not on asbestos no 16 Q. Nor have you read what they have written in the 17 field of health hazards to rubber or tire workers 18 A. I may have seen some things but I mean I know I 19 have but it's been years since I looked at that stuff and I 20 was mainly looking at it with interest in chemical hazards 21 Q. Have you read works by Dr. McMichael A.J. 22 McMichael 23 A. I have seen the name 24 Q. Do you know what he's written on 25 A. I can't remember C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 22 23 24 25 Q. Have you read any works by him concerning health hazards to tire or rubber workers A. I may have glanced at a couple of articles of that kind but I can't recall anything about it Q. You haven't produced any yet A. No. Q. What about Dr. H.A. Tyroler y A. I don't know Q. You pronounce it Tyroler Whatever he's written you don't know and you haven't produced A. Correct Q. Dr. Ted Williams same thing would be true A. Yes Q. Dr. Harris R.L. Harris Mr. Harris same thing would be true A. Yes MR HAYS Is he a Doctor or Mister MR HOOD I think he's an engineer an industrial hygienist I think he's a Mister Q. By Mr. Hood Do you know what asbestos materials were actually used in the Oklahoma Miami B.F. Goodrich plant A. Only in a general sense Q. So who the manufacturers of the materials were what types of materials what the condition of those materials were at the time various plaintiffs were employed at that C.S.R. ASSOCIATES 370 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 location you have no knowledge A. I don't have specific knowledge I have a fair idea who some of the manufacturers were based on who was represented at the deposition Q. What the content of the dusting powder thrown by workers on rubber to act as a detacifier were at that location you have no knowledge A. That's correct Q. And whether or not asbestos or talc or talc tainted with asbestos was used and whether it had tremolite you have no knowledge A. You mean for the purpose of dusting the rubber Q. Right at that specific location A. That is right I don't have specific knowledge on that Q. Whether or not there were cleavage fragments in the tremolite which caused disease you have no knowledge of that A. Right that's correct Q. Whether the talc was pure or not whether it caused disease or not you have no knowledge A. Well I don't know about the details of the constituants of the talc that was used Whether it caused disease or not is not a question for me Q. The effect of exposure by given plaintiffs to C.S.R. ASSOCIATES i carbon black you have to knowledge A. That's correct Q. To benzene you have no knowledge A. That's correct I don't get involved in the details of the individual plaintiff's chemical exposure Q. Polycystic aromatic carbon m you have no knowledge I am going to ask the same question as to several substances A. I have no specific knowledge as to any 10 individual's exposure to polycystic aromatic hydrocarbons or 11 any other thing you asked me about 12 Q. Would that also be true of anitoxidents 13 A. Correct 14 Q. Curing fumes 15 A. Correct 16 0 Other solvents 17 A. Correct 18 Q. Naphthas 19 A. Correct 20 Q. Smog in the area from the ambient air 21 A. Correct 22 Q. Polyvinyl chloride 23 A. You meaning vinyl chloride 24 Q. y chloride 25 A. No I don't know what exposure they have to C.S.R. ASSOCIATES was7u 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 21 22 23 24 25 polyvinyl chloride Q. Any additional medical problems they may have A. No. This all goes beyond the area of my testimony Q. Whether or not there was a sufficient level of airborne asbestos and talc particles to cause a high risk of disease to any of the plaintiffs in these cases you have no knowledge A. I don't know what the levels of exposure were if that is what you mean Q. And whether or not there was air circulating in these plants which was sufficient to eminatate enough asbestos or talc fibers so as to cause disease you have no knowledge A. I don't understand your question I mean the fibers don't emanate by process of evaporation The fibers are released by abrasion they may be released by air current and they may be recirculated that way Again these details about industrial hygiene aspects in the plant I am admittedly unfamiliar with Q. And whether or not adequate ventilation existed in that particular plant for this air circulation you have no knowledge A. Putting aside the use of the word adequate I am unfamiliar with the nature of the ventilation system that the plant had C.S.R. ASSOCIATES M Q. And you have no knowledge of what the tire companies or their employees knew about the health effects of asbestos A. That is also true Q. And talc Q. You have not talked with any of the plaintiffs in these cases A. No. 10 Q. You have not read any depositions of any witnesses 11 in these cases 12 A. No. 13 Q. Are you aware of any medical articles which deal 14 with the combined effects of asbestos or talc 15 A. What do you mean the combined effects of asbestos 16 or talc 17 Q. Well are you aware of any medical articles which 18 report such a combined effect 19 A. Well only insofar as the medical literature 20 contains reports on asbestiform minerals present in talcs 21 Q. And that would be the articles that you have 22 produced and we went over yesterday the talc articles 23 A. Yes 24 Q. Do you know how the tire workers at the Oklahoma 25 Miami plant compare to the blue collar workers in the United C.S.R. ASSOCIATES avy 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 States as to mortality or morbidity ratios from disease A. You mean overall life expectancy things like that Q. That's right A. No I don't Q. Are you aware of specific communications of a related problem in the tire worker industry of any of the following companies Do you understand the preface to the question A. I am not sure I do Q. Are you aware of specific communications of a related problem in the tire worker industry A. You mean to their employees 2 No. To any of the following companies that I'm going to list Some communication to these companies of a related problem to persons working in the tire industry or the rubber industry from exposure to their product Do you understand the preface to the question A. I am having trouble understanding You mean are they saying that the tires are dangerous Q. No that the work environment from these companies products -- well specifically do you know of any specific communication of that to the following companies A. I still don't understand you Q. Are you aware of any specific communications of a C.S.R. ASSOCIATES