Document 2jO37ozQNbvZGOvaq97Kd0Z6r

FILE NAME: Celanese (CEL) DATE: 1974 May 23 DOC#: CEL033 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Unpublished Shipyard conference Presentation Transcript - Tab P m JohftS'ManvlNa Oww.CiiwwIelWT a m m May 23, 1974 ftSHSTii Mr. Charla* S. Laubly Calao** Corporation 522 Stb w b h Maw York, XT 1003 d m t Mr. Laublyt Mr. Seitic alead a to foruard tha attached to yoc and apra* bla apologas io ha dala?. vary truly yours. taerataxy to V. I. Haitis Maaagar, Aocidsat maaatien and Industrial Baalfeb Attachaant GONZALEZOQ* (tun 1 - SIDS A) npremiioiua shipyard health c g h t e h s c e LOS AMBLES - DECEMBER 13-13 1974 i *- Mg*, you motioned the fact in the 1930's our cu*s of lung cancer began to b* seen anong ajbastes workers, ad this oontinued until tha attar v u clearly sattlad by Blf f W H fit 195 ia tell clamic p^ar. Dr. Doll, bowavar, was unabl* to s*ttl* on* quastion, aad wa ara till stuck with it. Ba found a good daal of lung cancer song tbaaa asbestos factory workars, but ba didn't know what tba canoar threshold was. Ba knew they bad a great deal of exposure but ha didn't know whether it was 10,000 tines nor* than was nscsssaxy to cause cancer or 1,000 tints aore or 100 tines nore or 10 tines aore. Be just ditto't know. Be just know that they were getting nuch aore asbestos than they needed to produee cancer. We cant along and we thought we night be able to answer that question, and we nade a aistaka. Be began to atudy a group of asbestos workers that we thought bad light and Intendtteot exposure. Nay I have the first slids plssst. hat we did was to make a list of every asbestos insolation worker la the lew York aznaj there were 133 of then on January 1* 1943. That gave us at least a 20 year period of follow-tv, aad knowing their egos in 1943 we calculated ege, year and sex specific rates of through Daoaabtr 31, 1942. Vs found that vhsrsaa there should have been 203 deaths, there actually wart 235. GONZALEZ00241 - and the excess w u limited largely to asbestosis, pactad; cancar of gastrointestinal tract, a nodsst increase, three tines increase only, unexpected, and as Dr* Doll has pointed out, canoer of the long, enthrothorasic canoar; whereas there should have bean or 7 canoera occurring, 45 actually did. How ve rere wrong, as Z say, because we too eouldn't answer how each of this esnoer resulted fro an exoess, a large excess of over-eepoeun. We didn't know whether the asbestos insulation workers in law Tork were hawing 1,000 tines or 10,000 tines or 100 tines or 10 tines wore than they needed to be inflicted with this disease. So that in 19C4, we tere in the sane position that Dr. Doll was in ten years previously. However, a good deal had been learned during the tine of the first report in D35 by Dr. Lynch end the liCO'a rhen re began to find this, and tha noet important thing that bacana clear in those years ras that as Baa Ferris aid yeatarday, everything that happaaad with asbestos tsndnd to taka aera than 20 years to bacons evident. For example, these data of a study of ours in lew fork when re looked at a thousand tabestoe insulation rochen, of the 725 with laea than 20 years fren onset of espeoun, noet had X-rays and when they w e n ahnornal they tend to bo nininelly so. On the other hand, rith n o n than 20 yean fren onset, the majority had ebnon al X-rays and not infrequently tbs abnormality tres considerable, the second Jj^ortant thing GONZALEZ00241 -3- l u x M d v u that tba aasothelial surfaces aot infreqosntly bacaa# involvad and nobody raally knovs vhy yat, u John Edga h u juat thovn ai, pleural plsgou vara 00-- only saas aot lnfraquantly. Thia vu vary axbaaaiva -- avau fatal. la such cas tba plaqua aoaatlma becs-- ealeified, and tbua too obay tha tvanty yaar rnla. Of tba 725 vlth las* than 20 yaan frce onsat, aost of tha had a aoxaal plaora oa X-ray. Aftaz that point, hovavar, tha plaora v u fregoently abooraal vith aitbar fibraeli or calcification. Zf tba plantai plaquai vara largaly oa tha pariatal plaural and an-- ti-- a tha plaora not ooly Shovad fihroals and calcification bot shovad naoplula -- la othar vords -- sothallo-- . Thaa, in oor asparianoa in aay rata ao far, thasa hara baaa imrarlahly fatal. Tha -- aothalioa of tha abdo-- n too, of doring tha aazly 1950's bagianing in 1950 and in 19*0' bacs-- apparaatly involvad and in tha asoallant pqpers of Xnticknap and SsdLthar tha fxaqoanoy of soch paritooaal involvaaant v u aaphuisad. Tha diffossoui again osa ba va11 daaonstratad in any laparotoay. la oor o-- stodias tha inportanoe of tba -- aothalio-- v u ao olaarly aacn in tha 370 sorrivors of tha original (32 groop. On Janaazy 1# 19(3 oor proapact of observation throogh Oecasber 31, 1971 h u sbovn that long cuoar, u axpactad, la aarkadly ineraaaad vberau totally thara ahoold hve baan 5 daatha thara vara 1(1 -- tvioa u aany aabutoe vorfcarx diad u vara expectad to dit doring that pariod, ge, yaar and m z spcifie ratas,of course. Mharau thara ahoold hve GONZALEZ00241 4 bean S death* of lung cancer, there vara actually 42 but interestingly u h u bean just emphasized, the mesotheliomas, pleural and peritoneal, began to be aeon with increasing frequency, m e eodeat increase in gaetrointeetinal cancer and, of course, deaths of asbestoeis. Me base put on this slide oar entire experience with this leu Jock City group from '43 through *71, and it's evident that in this particular group one out of every 5 deaths among these asbestos insulation vorkaxs has been due to bronchogenic carcinoma. Somewhere around ana out of 20 deaths has been due to mesothelioma , approximately one out of 10 to gaetrointeetinal canoar, and approximately one out of IS to asbestoeis. Ihers was a possibility that the Vow York experience vis unigotf therefore, we have undertaken a second stndy in which on January 1, IS*7, these arm new data which have not yet been published. Ob January 1, lf*7, we registered every Ingle union insulation worker in the country. There were 17,100 men in the union on that day. That's about a one-third temple or e one out of four ae^le of ell the lseulation workers in the country, tad we have followed them m d these data reflect whet happened to the 17,100 man through Peomtaar 31, 1971. tad although it's a much younger group containing, as Z say, all northers of the union, even those who were in the union only e year or two or less, we had ! very each the same results. Thera should hove been ege, year, : and sex specific 44 deaths of bronchogenic carpimens end GONZALEZ00241 5* 313 actnally oceurrad -- 77 Msothaliomas,again, tha t u a Io c t m m of 7atrointa*tinal cancar and th* daath* of ubutoii, haa* catagoriaa accountad for th* total axcaas of k m 300 or so daatha in th* total 9x00p. Ib* data vfaaa brafean dovn gala ooefixmd vhat Dr. r*rrt* aald y##t*rd*y that 20 y*ara at laast 25 yaaxa, 30 yaan, 35 yara aost paaa bafcrv th* cUni cal mttmeta ara ***n bacaos* han w* analyiad our groop laaa than 30 jin, 20 y*araand or* thaa 20 yara. v* foond that of tha 12,(00 Mtn vho had laaa than 20 y*ara roa oeaat of axpoaax* tbara *a a r*ry alight ineraaaa in long cancar, aovan anpactad and 22 oecnrxad. tbm rat* ia thaxa bat tha noaban ara anall. sly a mal ataba; of easothalioeaa, ottly fiva, vara aaan, ate. Ce tha othar haad, of tha 5,000 m e m e a than 20 ysars fxae osaat, thara ata 37 hronchoganlc oarcUonaa pactad and lil oocorrad. felnoat all of th* aaaotha* inata mura in thia groop, ora than 20 yaacs froe oeaat and tha daatha of aabaatoaia imilarly vara ao liadtad. ov, at thia t i m a analyiad oar data hy dnratioe fxoe oeaat and a* yon oae saa hora, a w r alanat no ineraaaa in bxeedhogmie aaxcino-- laaa than 15 yaaca froai oeaat Xadaad aoat of tha ineraaaa va* aaan 25, 30 and 39 yaaxa fxoe eefeat. Shaaa ara tha ratina that yon sao aad again m e oth*liona < oely to eaaaa vara aaan ia laaa than 20 yaara fsoe oeaat and th* othar* oocorrad folloving that point, lew at thia tina, va had nev a good daal of iafozaatiee oe hat happana ta aabastoa iasulatioe voxfcar* too. Mail, I think thia eormiag va haard tha pfaraaa "bor*t,~~ ~M gonzalezoo: -i* a beat",- Two boats burst amidst our thinking. A first etas fro Dr* Wagner. Chris tfsgnsr rsportsd in i960 that harass all of us vara seeing vary t m aosothaliosuu, we at lit Sinai saw thraa in 30 years fro 1930 to 1960. 8a raportad 47 cssas of s*sothelioa all in tha northwestern portion of tha Capa Provinca, a placa tiara tbara's such in tha way of croeidolita Laos sod ills, and in 45 of tha 47, tbara had boon potaatial asbastos oontaet. wall, this was no surprise. Ws had had a nunbex of raports of asbastos and aasothaliosa but hat was interesting was that in many of thasa paopla tbara had baan no occupational axpotora* fbasa art paopla ho livad in the household of an asbastos worker or along tha road along which tha donkay carta wars taking tha bags to tha ill. following thasa data Holley Henhouse rsportsd in 1965 that aha looked at tha histories of interviewing the paopla of tha 76 oases of soothelioaui in the filee of a lade s hospital. And sura enough, 31 out of tha 76 had worked with asbastos. fro tha 45 that had not, 9 had sisply lived household of an asbestos worker, and of tha Si who neither worked with asbaitoe nor livad with sowsone ho worked with asbestoa, U had sisply livad within one-half sile of an asbastos plant* This than raised for tha first tins tbs isportano* of "light esposura", x ally don't know what "light" naans and X don't know what "heavy" naans, this is nought to causa nasotbelions. Or. Unban is Pennsylvania GONZALES 7- loofcvd at tha asothalioaas in tiw filfci o tha State aalth Daparteant, aad o tha 42 oaiaa thsrs, 20 had vorkad vlth asbesto. But o the 22 vho bad not, aight had siaply lived in tha bous in tha neighboxhood vithin a - half ada o f aa asbestos plant and thraa had 11ved in tha honsahold of aa asbestos vorkar. At thls polnt tba saoood boab borst and it vas a qniat eaaaent nada in ( fehat papar by Dr. Harrias wbo ls har vith na today, and looklag at tha asbestos diaaasa sitatioa of tha Davanport Oodc yard, ha reportad that la additioa to casas of Msofehalioaa tbare vera five patiaats with aabesteais# thare ara five with aaaothalioaa at tba Davaoport Dock yard that ha kaew aboot. Wall, this aa I sey vould cansa a great stir, aepecially han rspidly bis absemtiona vera eoefinad by otbars in iritaia-- Whitvall, HcSvan, Happlaaton aad othars aad alaavhare. Mov thia raised tba qnaation that ve are diacaasiag bata at this vestng. Tba problaa of iadireet eapoanre as Z'va beard today a very cuta pbrssa "Dr lispin'a bystsadar diaaasa ia shipyards". Tba i^ortaaea of this to oa oae be daaoaatratad bate. Ha la tba Dbitad Itataa bad a avall Hhlpbvildiag iaduatxy batvaac tba tvo vorld vara. Be yo too, tba lrltlsh shipbuUdlag iadestry vas reaetivatad road 1031-1932. Ha did aot bagin to rabnild onr shipbtxilding indastry notil 1940. Wa aployad arenad 79,000 asa at ay oae ti-- froa 1922 to 1940. Hbea the shipbuildlag iadsotry GONZALEZ00241! began again In full bloesoa in 1940, wa want up to a vary och largar noaber, and this ia a graph of thoaa on tha aaat ooaat, tha n i t coast, andr of coursa, tha golf coast, and tha Grant Lakaa araa. Wa had also, starting around 42, 43, wa bagan to aaploy a fair nuabar of woaan aid Dr. Kicks told ns yastarday that at tha yard that ba was at tbara sonatinas raacfaad as aany as alaost 1/3 of tba work foroa. Only 1 of 500 was a pipa oovarer, was an Insolation worker. All tha otbar tradss wars bars, bot whan you consider what happened in tba hold of a ship, tha Insolation worker was obviously surrounded by all tba otbar trades, electricians, steam fitters, ate. Thera was a hogs turnover during tba war, approximately 1001 a year, and as a result, wa had in this country 4fc Billion people, aany woman, who worked at aoae tiaa or another in our shipyards in World War II from 1940-1945, reaching a axisns at tha and of 1943. Wall, ia this a hazard? Wall, I'll show you soma of our atodias that are trying to gat soma information on this. Wa first found out what kind of insulation these people used, and it was made by one otnyany, by mad largo. A Wavy spec in 1935,incidentally, i with regard to the question Of croddolita, tba a^erlaaoa that I've jest shown you has nothing whatsoever to do with orooidolita which wa didn't use in this country st all in insulation work. So tba asparlanea of insulation workers has nothing to do with croddolita. Ohtil around 1935, it was entirely chxysotlla. Wa began to use son amoalta in 1935 GONZALEZ002420 and thia increased rapidly in tha 1940'a and subaaquantly. Zt vaa th* Onion Asbestos aad Xubbar Company that began to sake all of tha insulation for the Navy and the other shipyards. And they vent into production in Patterson, lev Jersey in 1941, and they vexa very good. Asneaber the AnqrRavyg and these vara the nan. There vara 933 aaa employed in this factory at saastlae between 1941 and 194S. We have follovsd every single one of these nan, aad by the end of *71 as yon can see vs found that their experience vas identical to tha insolation workers. Long cancer, 11 expected, 73 observed, naaothelioaa, gastrointestinal cancer and asbestoeis. So that tha aeterials that wars going into our shipyards vers carcinogenic, lfa have now huean proof in thia regard. Indeed they were quite carcinogenic, because we have analysed our group of m b working in this factory free *41 to *49 by duration of exposure. One-third worked for less than three Booths, one-third worked iron 3 to 11 Bjnths. These were short tore jobs. Sobs of thsa worked for the suBBur sad even want into tha service after a few Booths in the factory sad one-third worked Bore than a year. Tha leaf oaeoar rates were excessive even with less than three aesrths of espoeure to the aatsrials that were than need in our shipyards In World War II. Wa got tha wind up rather rapidly. The first case of aaeotheliOBS we saw was in tha mas who invented this particular insulation eatsrial. Be died GONZALEZ002421 10 of easothalicna. Me got ths raoorda out but whan'wa inquired boot bln, his wife wrote us boot mother tragedy, and this k*s tragedy that yon see oo the screen now. this was his daughter^ a young child who had never, of coarse, worked in the factory or any factory and aha was found bo have a pleural plaqn not too well seen of calcified plaque. B u s h years later she developed msottaliona and died, and Mrs. Xwrote ns that her only contact with particular insolation was that the chief engineer would bring hose the products proudly to show his fanily what he had invented and the kid had played with then on the dining rooa table, this is a assotbaliona that we saw nest. This was the Plant Manager. Mr. Shutt, in his previous X-ray had been normal. Mo than looked at to see bow such of this aafeerial would be necessary to cause nasothallana or otter cancers or otter 'isease, and I will now show you aana new data on this study in progress, and, of course, has not been published. Me have now examined 200 fanily aaabers of the a n and woann ~ aen worked in this factory during *41, '42. These are the vises and children who lived with then free 0f period 1041-1943, and this is our analysis of the first 115 eases we've seen. 'Me have found that 401 have X-rqy evidence of parenteral and/or pleural disease. These were siaply fanily aaabers of .people who worked in that factory. Ms h a m found it that wives, sons, daughters, siblings, parents in about the sane proportion, to that it did not take anch of this particular dust of this particular aatarial of anoaite asbestos, and GONZALEZ002422 -11 these i n the typical thing* n have found a* Dr. Idga ha* sham you thi*___ . plaque. -The.people art.. , incidantal von /thi* on*. Th* nlalnal asb**to*is ve foind occasionally and th pleural plaques that you aa* bar*. This study is still in progress as Z say. Ns have looked at it another V and again these data ha<ra not been published. Z thought you night be inteiaatad in than. In the lev York City group when we examined these people the history was obtained * whether or not they worked in shipyards. Nov these are all Insulation worker*. Approximately one-third never worked in a shipyard ene-thitf went up to two years and one-third worked for 3 or 4 years in shipyards. Now these were ell people of the sane city and tha sane union -- all insulation workers, sad their lung cenoar rates, their nesothcliona rates were very notch the sane. Ns have also looked at it another way. Zn the National Survey we're doing fron 'C7-'71 we have analysed tha Onion' experience by whether or not the mm were registered in locals in the aidwest, in the oentral states, and presumably without any shipyard experience, and those registered in shipyard locals. There has been no difference in the rates of workmen in shipyards or not in shipyards. Now we sew our first eeeotbelione in a shipyard worker in ItCC, Dr. Vdge m his first cos in ItM. Z **4b> that Dr. larries reported that he sew his first one -in Davenport in 1164. low tbs British experience is about five, six, seven yean before ours. They began their shipyard work about that length of tine before we did. Ne didn't see very much in the way of shipyard naeoHialions unt" the pest year or two. Now we're seeing one roughly GONZALEZ00242; around o m vary two weeks. t bars no idea bow stay tboro art; but It1 sonawhara around in oar experience *t this tins boot on* end two v m Ju and how any that re in tha country wa don't know, i'll show yon c o m of our recant care* to eloaa thia praaantation. This ic a n who worked -- thaM ara all aaaothalioaas. & aan who worked for two y a m la tha Brooklyn Vary Tarda aa an electrician, 1943. Shis la a yuan? voaen who worked for air waaka in tha Hinghan Shipyard in Boaten while aha waa going to aehool. She waa a college atodast. In raaponaa to patriotic appaoj, aba worked for air weeks at the llnghaa Shipyard as a pipe ooversr. Thia ia a aan who worked aa an engineer for two years in Mayor Island in San Francisco. This ia a nan who worked aa a sheet natal worker -- These ara all naaothelionaa -- at tha Bathlaham yard ia the Saw York area. The next two cases I now have at Mt. Sinai. Theea are two patleata that I left at the hoepitel whan I earn oat here. Otis it a yotajg wonin, act a young waaw . She's <S I think -- Sally, Dr. Cooper knows thia patient well. Bhe ia the wife of a good friend of Or. Cooper's, hern in the aaoond row, if you want to know o o m details shoot her. She wee perfectly well. She worked at Z. Nagnin in Sea Fraadaeo. Several nantha ago, she underwent a routine store physical, la abnornel X-ray wee found. She went to her private physician who did a _, and he cane I RONZALEZ00242 13-- back into bar coon, anA ha said "Sally, z've gat soma bad a a m -- 'than la aoM problem* and aba aaid Hell Z know what I've get. I've got mesothelioma", aha aaid. Bha told him that for 1C month, *43 to IS, aha had worked at an Oakland, California ahipyard and than want back to bar clerical work. And thla la bar mesothelioma at tba present tiaa, and aha ia now at Mt. Sinai in our experimental chemotherapy program. Another patient we now have In the * hoapital ia a woman who never bad any work of any kind other than clerical work. She developed a dlaaaaa in 1971. A biopey waa dona and plaoral meeothelioaa waa found. Sha had no aabeatos axpoeura. Checking bar hlatory, however, aba was found to have baas marrlsd la `42 to a man who was a ahaafc natal worker at tba Sun Shipyard la Chastsr, Pennsylvania. and for tboaa two yaara/iha wasbad hia clotbaa and sba daacrlbed coming home with this whita duet over his clothes, which she then washed, and this ia her Mesothelioma, aad'aha's now beginning to go down hill after a good portion of these last II Mmths or ao. Ok,this was a man that Z saw three years ago. A 30 year old man with this mesothelioma. I ooulda't find out where be got his asbestos axpoeura because at 30 years eld i idttrs dttbe gat itT Ms took a careful historyr of aewae. la waa b o m cat kali Street, lived tbere for a year and than eoved for 1C years to Wilson Street andtmnha got serried, lie wife said "Well, we can't live around hare. wa'v# fiONZALEZ00242i 14 fot to aova to Flatbuah,*ona of tha alear Mctloaa in Nav Tork at that tiaa and, ia fact, aba insiatad that ba gat a jofa, which ha dld. Ohdar doraaa,ha bacaaa a bookkaapar *ad thaa fox M a y yaara ha vaa parfactly val til ha davalopad thla cfaaat disoasa, and aaaothaliom n i fosad. Ona biopay ahovad aapla aabaatoa to ba praoaat. So thara n i no gnaatlon abont bis axpoanro. ladead ona of tha flbara vaa larga aaoogfa for alaetroo diffraetioa atndy and lt provad to ba aaoalfea. So ha kaav d a n val hora ha got hla aabaatoa fren. Na got a 15 oaat nap of Bes Tork aad that gava ua tha diagaoaia. Boro vaa lall Stroot; hara vaa Nllaoa Straefe. That vaa aezoaa tha way fren feha Bzooklya Navy Vard, aad ha got hla aabaatoa la hla Bofehax'i ana in 1*40, 41, 42. Tfcasa axa feha laat bao alidaa, aad fehay gira yon tha raanon for onr cuxrant oonoara. Iba aga diatribtica of feha vorkars la ahpyarda ea feha atlantle aoaat and tha vaafe ooaat vaa knovn la '41 aad *42. Na haraa't got good data of '43 and *44, so wa'ra axtrapolatlng a bit. Of thaaa 4% alUloa aaa aad venan la voritad ia oar ahlpyard fron *40 to *45, fehay'ro giran fehair aga diatribetien ia *41 feo *45. Thara ara aov acnavhara arenad fehxea aiIlion saarlcaaa oliva vho worfead la onr hlpyards ia Norld Nar II aad vho ara aov roaehiag tha M yaar fren ooaat poiat, aad va all foal that va aro alfeting oa feha adga of a volcaao. Thaak yon vary aaeh. r5nM7AI F 7 ftlA O t 15- ftm asbestos workars ... Z think Z ought to introduce myself. You oogfafc to know m by anr, z think oftor tho loot too doctor*# Dr. Sellkoff ad tho doctor fro England g a m tbair praaantatlooa -- Their excellent presentations . *"J -- I voold Ilka to u m r a Uttlo bit to Dr. Boll of his presentation yoatorday. Z would Ilka to aay tho following in regard to hi* Tory intorooting paper, Hman amoral. IX-4, ho stated that tho Division of Occtgutional Health and Pollution Control haa built up a reputation for impartiality. Z think in his case it's tiiM to boooaa partial. Z'n not criticising Dr. Boll, I*m criticising tho ooapaay. X think it's tin* they beesm partial, the many health problem they h a m arising frosi lack of ooamunication, to bo blamd on lack of oomnt,cation and naaatiafaetoxy aaployor and employe ralationshipo, and lack of job satis faction, this, in ay opinion# la tha fault of both lower and upper supervision, t-- whore along tha line# if tha a n ate that -- and tbair snrala la that low# tha supervision is wrong. This ia all Z can say about this If tho morals is that low. Z know we h a m many problem here today and we'm gone over many problem, Also ia his slide ha indicated mo hasards involved for dean-up work. Exposed dry Insulation on ceilings# the use of sprayed wet asbestos ia group workers# tha cutting of asbestos sheets in open six and power operated hand saws in esbinats of mo hasards. GONZALEZ00242 -1- I think after the two presentation this aorning, t think that aoaaona has an awful lot to laarn and u v u (rat ao aptly by Dr. felikoff thia aorning, if X was a buaineaa agant aa X v u in Toledo, Ohio for lfi years, if X vaa a boainaaa agant in Australia, thara wouldn't ba ona nan working in thoaa yards. Those gates would ba blocked tight every aorning X thank you for your tins. GONZALEZ00242( (Tap 1 - Bid B) -17- Could you rpat that please? 0. Tm , hat c o u n t would you have to asks, and I would Ilka to ask Dr. Barries if ha has aaaa any Navy people develop any of those syaptom who probably work around this stuff for years. JU I think perhaps Dr. Barries will be able to answer that * in great detail. Be have studied the nen-Bavy personnel. I did section yesterday that all of the essothslicws that X saw at the Araad Pore* Institute of Pathology were in adeirals. X didn't see one in a general, that's because the people who ware not, X saw their speciaens in UIO or so, 30 years before they were lieutenant junior grade, in the engine roes. The generals X aspect were having a good tine on s o w of the any poets. Q. Dr. Buries, you ease to field that? 0. Thank you. BU are easing asbestos disease in the Bevel personnel. But we have a problw, and X assess that you have the s a w problw in your country that our Baval retire young eo that ae we see fron Dr. lelikoff'a wonderful presentation, thasa diseases occur after a period of 20 years. Bo that by the tine the nan coses to retire, he hasn't got any signs of the disease, and they're occurring after they taka UP other aaploywnt. Bo that they GONZALEZ00242! are usually forced to follow-up and ithis ia something we are looking into. Z vendar a* x now have the nicrophoae whether Z could taka the opportunity to ask Or. Salikoff if thara ara now any advances is tha treatment of mssotitelloaa, bacausa this i n m to bo tba oat crucial point. JU X agraa with you. Dr. Harries, this ia probably tba scat important thing that va now should ba looking to with * mesetheliaaa. I think wa h m had acongh diagnoatic atedies, enough epidemiological atadlas, anoogh statistical stadias. Pa know what our problem ia. Me have to identify thoaa at risk and I'm not quita aura I know bow to do tilia for tha 2% or 1 million or 3 nillion people now alive who worked ia oar shipyasde in Morid Mar ZZ. Ibis is a problem that va have not apidaaiologically solved, but tha question of therapy arises. Mena of as have had any saeeeas but thara are soma hints that ara beginning to occur, lraoad with soma ooafelnsd dbaaotharaputic approaches, wa have without question bean able to lengthen tba duration of active life. One aaa 1 think you knew him wall -- Sd Kilmer, local 12, the secretary of tha Onion. Zt vas a bad Baton to ba anrat i.rj of. lia predecessor, John Boglavitch died of pleural mesothelioma ia 1M4, m then ba was replaced by Id Kilner at a special election. Z don't know whether tha man did him a favor . bat Id Kilaer soon died of meaotheiiome also, and nobody has wanted to taka tba job simas. GONZALEZ00242 -JJ- Aad with cbeaotharapy h m i bit to go bade to work for a y*ar and a half. What wa bad dona vaa to grow easothaliona oalla in call eultora and than taat various battarlaa of cbaaotharsputic aganta against tha pacific call Linas of tba pacific patlanta. Wa had also grown thia in hsaatar cheat poaches and had used tha aaaa approach. we ara now with Dr. Holland who haa co-- to us fro* Hoawall Fade, have now begun a program of aaperiaantal chaeotharapy with scat vary intaraating now drugs. Ooa# for axaapls, that ia pacifically oaaful in tuners that prodaoa anoous on people poly&ncoridss. KajSoa't know whatbar thia ia going to ba affective hart. Thar ia a raoant aariaa froa Manorial Hoapltal of peritonaal easothaliona, given foil abdoalnal radiation, and aawad guita harole, bat fchay hava fiva patlanta nov wbo hava, ooa has gooa 10 years and tba fonr others hava gooa from 5 to 10 yaars, and they did not do their patients any ham. I saw ooa patient with abdominal Boaothslioea sent ea from Washington. Ba vaa ooa of tha emewtlvas of Boys of Maries and ha had scan abdosrina.1 trouble. la want into Otorgefcown oapital. The next thing he knew after the operation vaa tba yoong intern cane over to him and said "When have yon worked with asbestos? Ba said "1 almost fall oat of tba bed." The intern had teen the Ada. It was a peritonaal eeaothaliona and, of ceeraa, ha had worked when be was in Osmany in 1121 with asbastoa. GONZALEZ00243 ,-ao- Wall, ha a treated at Georgetown Boapital with fall ibdtm lntl radial therapy, and ha alao waa ahla to lira thraa years which waa loagar than oar paritonaal aaaothaliooas go. There ia a possibility oar inanotherapy people, wa hava thaa looking at thia alao, ara tailing ua that thay ight not ba abla to handla tha hoga assart of mesothelioma that's pruant in a chaat or an ahrtnun and thay hava raeoaaamdad that wa eonaidar ooablnad aorgical and iuonological and/or cheaotharapotic approach-- ao that tha ccnoar nhanratherapy light hava a cfaanoa in than patianta. Me ara alao engaged in a, sorry to give yoa so cony of thaaa tharapotic approaches, bat wa don't know which is going to work and so wa ara trying all at tha sau tiaa. Na hava a vary active prograi going baiad tpoo tha observations of fchlipoolor in Geznany with poly_____ and oxide and allies to sea whathar wa night ba abla to inaetiviata dost that is already in tisaoa ia liatg or in other tisanes, and in tha t u t tebe wa ara wall abla new, wo have a variety of chanima that o n inactivate tha snrfaoa of aabutoe, tha varlooa kinds of aebutoa fibers stillting h u m 1tic test systau and other t u t systau, and wo axo now going into tha aniul nodal. Thia is alao a possible approach. So that wa have, we're looking at a amber of diffexont ways of ^preaching thia and X have ay fingers crossed. X hope that one or note of than is going to ba able to solve this problem which otherwise, * ia no eolation GONZALEZ002432 Q. Dr. fetaldt -- I h a m two quastlooa, Ooa, since haring baan diagnosed, haa anyone op to now reached tha flm yaar laval? luabar cam, noaber two -- Za thara any explanation aa to why, even on tha aatar aapoaora scaa. paepla seemingly ara predisposed to nssothaliona? A. there la a Franeh paper which la aapoblisfaad, which waa 4 praaantad at thalr View Confaranoa In June. It waa a oonfaranoa on diseases of tha plaural in which ooa of thalr ohanotharapy treated aesothellomas haa gona flaw yaara. Zt waa a vary, rary long tenor. Sewarer, and I don't tecw wbathar yon oonld cradit tha chemotherapy with this bacanoa acMtlnaa wa aaa patianta going thzaa nontha and a caaa of patianta without any traataant laat for thraa yaara and four yaara. So that I don't know how to a^.'iin thla Fraoeh raport, and I'm joat glmn yon tha raport with ragard to radialtherapy. Wa h a m ooa othar caaa in our hoapital in which fall ebaat radial thangy waa glmn fallowing anrgary to n doctor'a wifa A yaar and a half ago and ao far bar X-ray looks parfactly aoraal. So wa h a m oar fingara croaaad knits. And why doaa ralatimly light aapoaora, listtad aapoaora pcodoca this tmor? Wall tha etnear paopla, tha oardnogaoaals people, ara fond of tailing oa that tha occarranoa of cancer is _ _ _ _ _ _ _ want, that whan you h a m tha initial turaaxotxvd of nornnl oalla into cancerous calls, torn that GONZALEZ002433 -2a. point on, they M o d no other energy Mnreo iron tho original eareinoganle agont. They aro than off on thalr am and just procood. So that what la naoesaary is enough to have a snail area bacons ctnoar and iron than on in tha initial causa has no relevanoa. Q. Z'n Dr. Ooopar iron Berkeley. Z agroa with Dr. Salikoff , that we ara facing a potentially vary serious situation and regardless of what tha incidence turnout to be the population Involved bare is so large that tba total problem in huaan soooosdc and social tares is bound to be a serious one, and Z feel that the shipyard workers wars casualties of the war, just as sonsona who lost an a n or leg or worse in coriat. The people of tha shipyards there ara no provisions for taking csxa of this situation. Our Workman's Compensation and other provisions vary often will not apply and I just wonder what kinds of stops ara being taken. Mint the poesibilities are of approaching thin thing in a way that will be fair to those individuals no aetfenr whether there are 1,000 or 10,000. k . there ie sosmthing being done and Z think we have at leaat in largo part to thank George Lawton for this, the oreau of Federal Kaployeaa Compensation has agreed in the Salted States, Z think this ie within tbs year, to oonaidar GONZALEZ002434 -23- ltMlf tha l M t aployar of racord for any casa of naaothalicma in whicb tbair laat ubtito xposur m i lo World Wax II la tha ahipyards, Thara i m oartain critaria. Maaothalioaa w a t ba provan. Star* thould hava b u no othar ubaatoa xpoaur inca that tina, te. Bot b u ically tha Mavy throogh tha radaral Boraao of Saployaas Ooapanaation aad bara * too, vfaat Dr. Larton aald yastarday, I hava focnd it to ba tro and no laayar la nacasaaxy. A a t thaaa paopla hava baan giun ooapanaation by tha Jlavy. I think that tais h u baan a vary banana act and a vary difficult altoation. ibis, of ooursa, la rathar coid aonfort, Z agraa with yon, bot Ita tha baat that h u baan dona and X think tba Mavy daaarvu good round of applaosa on tilia r n y humana tpproach, aad X think Oaorga Lavtco, in particular, daaaruaa ezmdlt for thla. Yooag lady ovar hara. Q. % quutlon la thla -- Doaa thla ruling apply coly to paopla uto vork ln tha U.f. I n y yarda or d o u it alao qpply feo all of tha vario paopla uto work andar oontract for tha Kartt i Caaadaalon, baoauaa m a t of tha work la d e la privata yarda. GONZALEZ002435 24 (Sallkoff) l u i o expert on legal natters, perhaps Dr. Lawton can tell os. (Lawton) - The federal Employees Coapeneatlon applies only to federally employed workers. Contract employees would fall oedar a different cosyensatlon. Does that answer your question? There are other ensures that have been attsapted. A year end a half ago we sucoeeded la having inserted in the OtSA-IlOCI budget a special line appropriation for a assethalicsa case finding registered. This its was vetoed when the president vetoed that part of tha budget. A second atteapt was suds by ns to begin this work. Legislation has bean introduced. It's called skeletal legislation, that is to say, it is put into the hopper to be filled out later in hearings by Senator Egbert Buaphrey, and this bill ill call for a national register of all exposures as tha beginning of the prooees of identifying these workazs and trying to see that whatever oonasmity resources exist are nada available to the worker, So, we're not sleeping on this probleeu ' (Selikoff) - There's another evidence of veitfulnass that's now in the works, and this la again the idea of driving foroa o f W q B r i n -- r| *a has bean the principal individual who has been trying to develop a new approach to just such problem. Sis group has studied the papulation of the onion Asbestos aad Itubber Ooapany riant in Tylar, Texas. GONZALEZ00243( Co m 900 people worked there iron 1954 through 1971. The pleat Is now closed. Yet, here we heve 900 people who were exposed to erectly thle eeteriei that we've bean deicribing and whet U to happen to thee. Dr. Wagoner- went to the Rational Cancer Institute sees nine eonths ago and proposed that the Rational Canoar Institute fund a study of the chest hospital in Tyler, Texas to sake a register of every one of these 900 workers and follow the for the rest of their Uvea. The Cancer Control Division of the Rational Caneer Institute has taken this proposal and it is ay understanding that Dr. Wagoner's efforts will be successful. We hope to hear about this in the next several weeks and this sight set a pattern for probleas like this that we will have I'b sura froa ties to tisa. I'b b o authority in thia particular fiald, in response to the young lady's question, but som place back in the gray Mtter here we're talking about som legislation idantified as white l m g as we relate to the black lung in the ooal iadaatry. low far domstroM thia is, Z really don't know. Thank yon. Jks Dr. aelikoff indicated and Smiley Resnais, Senator Humphrey has proposed a bill with Representative Prelinghuysea and Senator Taft. The aost recent one in regard to your question .about the eo-called white lung bill and Z think the one that GONZALEZ002437 AfL-dO u well u the Aibutoi Workers International la going to bade if sponsored by Senator Harrison, William javits, Jr., and Senator William. Raw, I understand Humphrey ia willing to withdraw hia bill andthay'ra going to mica fchia bill a compensation law rafon. It'a going to bring the banafita up to at leant the level of longahoraaan'a Act of Vaahington, D.C., which changed October 1. I think for it total disability/#as 11(7.00 a weak and now 1 believe it'a gone up 251. However, I want to aay thia auefa and I'll reed a quote from one of the uguinea -- "The elan baa oundad and gnaea who Bounded it?" One induatxy and an Zhe association,/Rational Insolation Contractors Association ia trying to sound an alarm. Its Executive Director, John Pollack, has written to noma 30 industry association executives urging them to carefully analyse the bill and take steps to hava it amended, if necessary, to arnica it more powerful. Thia bill If anected, said Pollack, will in our opinion hava a greeter l^act am eaployera of OfHA. Despite this, no organised effort appears to be made to alert employers to the very draatie.provisions it contains, b s 's alerted the ADC, of course , and thia bill also provides for the attorney fees to bo over and above any aettlamant or any oo^enaation payments. It'a goimg to be quite a fight. I think it's one that our Xntamational will ba backing. I know tha APIrdO is going to back it. I'm sure tbe inauranoe companies will probably split on it. I'm fairly sure a lot of tham will back the bill but it ia going to be our so-aalled white lung bill that we decided to go for at our lest convention in septerfur. GONZALEZ002438 .-27 Oma non, I thin* tram England. 0* Could Z aakt on* cosawnt and aak ona question? Ths os* coamant is that vs had a small gas mask factory -- I think someone asked about individual susceptibility -- We had a small gas mask factory in _ _ _ _ _ a* tbs beginning of the var which was using this blue asbestos from Western Australia and this alloyed only 9 women for a period about * a year packing this stuff into part of gas masks. Sir of these have died of mesothelioma. Xhe three have been lost sight of. This suggests to me that there is no individual susceptibility required to account for this. You can have the right fiber in the right plaee for long enough, you probably will get the disease. That ia my comment. The two questions that are part of felikoff's breakdown on the associated lesions or osreincmas related to industries that described either fibrosis. Could you give ui a brief ooement on the associated lesions with tbs man who develop cancer and finally in regard to therapy -- has he any comments about the urns of BCQ or _ _ _ _ _ _ A. (SalUcoff) - All of our insulation works base autopsy hevm asbsstoals whataver also they have. They may not have it on x-ray, but histologically then ia always some pulmonary fibrosis among thesa poeple. The shipyard masothsliomas we've seen on X-ray :fttmgaantly have GONZALEZ00243S no evidenee of asbestoaia. a y nay or nay not have plaques but thorn is no association with asbostoois naceeaarily. With regard to BOS wo oorsolvas hava not used this, it oortainly ia a thought, However, wo havo discossod this with our ineunology group and thoy azo looking at tho pooaibility of various 1-- sinological approaches. This is a wary active field as wo all know at tho present tins with regard to cancer nanageaent. Na'ra keeping our fingers crossed that it won't go away as soon of tht othar eanoar which offered greet pzonise at first and than hava left ue still worrying about our problems. Right as well wind it upj one announceeent to asks? one obeervetion and Dr. Soldanith would like to asks aone caaaenta, those of you who hava not signed up for the workshop please do. It is a greet deal of interest. GONZALEZ00244Q -a*- * T g g a - iid> a Blot asbestos -- x got loot on th tax here. whet Blot asbestos any dlffarant than any othar kind of aabeatos or Bo you Man, jost don't apray that blua staff? B- A s qaastiens la -- Xa blua any dlffarant than any othar kind of asbsstos7 1. Bias asbaatos is crocidollta ashastoa which cooks mainly iron 8oath Africa, though than art soam daposita in Anatrails, and it has dlffarant proportion to ooalta or ehxysotilo aaboatoa. 0. X'o going to ask Dr. Solikoff to coamat in a moawnt and tha roaaon X waa asking yon tha question in this fora and ha may want to ask you sons questions, and X knew others will. Bat tha question, they boilt a hogs First Rational Bank in Portland recently and they sprayed all that steal work for 40 stories and for about a week aroend there for fear blocks srotsid you walked aroond there and yon were walking on white staff, end X thought certainly tha newspapers would get wind of this and raise the question, but nobody did. The Bandar's Signet article was a littHe too far back thaxe and yoa night want to eonnant on that. X don't know, X assana it's asbestos. X sae than still potting white and gray staff on thane steel buildings there in Portland. X'n not absolutely sore what that staff is, bat yoa did talk about tha spraying of this notarial end its problsM. X can't help bat feel that this toff is atill being need rather widely. Roald yoa like GONZALEZ002441 30- ta on-- ant on hi m a r k s and peril*p dialate a Xittl and ask hist a question or two. A. Or. Wagner is Oreat Britain is of the opinion that erocidolita asbestos is even aors dangerous than anosita asbastos or chxysotils asbastos. than hats, however, baas no population studios which would indicata that this is so. Experimental studios haws shown that all typos of asbastos haws tho property pretty each tho saao lavaIs of producing tho nooplasas. A o United States' xparienco includes no erocidolita exposuro. All of our data and other scientists in the united States have been based upon aaosits and chxysotile exposare. I see no reason for treating erocidolita any differently than samite or chxysotile or shall Z put it the other vg. X see no reason for treating chxysotile or aaueite any differently than dracidolite, and in this* regard X am not optimistic at all. I am not optimistic at all about oar ability to protect workers who are now cosdng into these trades based von our currant standards. I'd like to translate some figures. The lawel of two fibers per oo imdi*oatee that there would be 2yOQOOOQ fibers per ctfcic mater. B u m are fibers only longer than five microns in length. Be was pointed out this morning , there nay be anywhere from I0 to 9 M more fibers shortsr than those five microns In length, bat if we would include only the long ooee i10M7 A lrwn - 31- only thoM ova; five *icrons, two fib par cc, a a n working in aa ateosphers containing two fibers tach oe would ba working In an ataoaphara which hat 3,000,000 fiber* par cubic attar. Mow, tha working aan inhalta aoaathing around I cable netara of air in an -hour day, a aan actively at work, that aaana ha would ba inhaling, if tha ataoaphara eontainsJ two fibara par oc, ha would ba Inhaling 11,000,000 fibara longar than fiva nicrona * and pazhapa 100 tiaas that many abortar than fiva nicrona in each working day. Vow, wa do not know what paroantaga of thoaa inhaled are ratainad. There are aoaa atodiaa by lob larria of North Carolina, university of North Carolina, which noggeiti that aoaa thing around 50 are ratainad. I know of no atodiaa that would indicata that hit aatbaaatical odala and sa anginaaring nedala era naoaaaarily trna. Wa nay retain only It or 10 or 30, wa don't really know at this point. In tha abaanoa of knowledge, X think that psaoantion ia dotfcly naoaaaary. lot whatever, wa are anting wozkan at tha present tiaa to work in ataoapharaa in whieh they will inhale 1,000,000 fibers in each working day of long onaa and pazhapa aavaral billion of tha snail onaa, and retain an unatodiad proportion. X have doubts whether this vodd protaot snyons in tha fntnza. My doubta are basad upon tha fact that first of all thoaa with vary light arpoanra,as you pointed out, that only two of your in meothalionas wora/aabaatoa woxkazs. A a other $4 wars ia tha other trades. 8o that wa have reason to bailors that this will not protact workers in tbs future. X have a aecond GONZALEZ002443 i m n q for having atrong doubts. They i n based upon the history of the setting of ths asbestos standard, Sa asbestos standard of 2 fibers por cc or S fiber* per ce or 4 fibers per oo is based upon the recoMsesdatioa of the subeonittes on asbestos standards of the British Occupational Hygiene Society. The British Occupational Bygiene Society ast in 11*4, *67 and peblisbed its findings in 1911. Shay vary wisely, in ey opinion oorreetly, were very prudent in what they said. They said the data that we have and the data that they have is another probles, another question, another story, but the data that they had they said referred only to ohrysotile. they said we know nothing about any other fiber because we only have data with regards to chxyaotila. So your workers are working with aeoeite - our worfcars are working with aaoelta and no atandard la known for aeoeite. that's the firet thing. Secondly, they said our data referred only to the prevention of eabestoeis. We know nothing!we hanre no data which would tell ue what the level should be for the prevention of cancer. Bow, east asbestos workers who die don't din of. aebeatoeia. In oar series less than 20 of tha T -- tff deaths were due to eebeetoeia. She escess death a n daa to lung canoer, e-- othslloas, gaatrointeetinal .eanoar. the standard of two fibers per oc then was designed and specifically stated by the British Occupational Hygiene Society to refer only to the prevention of eabestoeis. GONZALEZ00244' - 33- S m British Occupational Bygiant Sociaty nada no claia that this standard would prevent eanear. Tat whan wa imported this standard across tha Atlantic, wa forgot tha caution that tha British Occupational Bygieae Sociaty and wa said' this is tha standard for asbastos. Vot that this is tha standard for tha prevention of ashestoeis but this is the standard for asbastos in general. There is no published body of data that would say that a standard of two fibers per ee or IS,000,000 fibers in a working day will prevent cancer. There are no snch data and with so dangerous a situation with such an important disease, with irreversible disease, with death of neoplasn, Z auheit that not to taka every possible precaution not to wait everything on the side of the worker is not necessarily going to prevent tha disease of death of cancer in the future. Z agree that Or. lelikoff wads a very ijportaat point that these standards do refer to the prevention of ashestools, sad our regulations were drawn up at the tine when erocidolita aabestoe was wore closely associated with eaaothaliom than tha other two varieties of ashestoe. I still think they're not absolutely certain all tha degree of risk involved with tbs different types of asbestos, and we need to know acre about it. As far as our eavironmatal conditions are oonosrnod. in our ships our dust sampling tsaa are &>* *- dispirited because they do not find asbestos fibers in the air sad I don't think I Mentioned this in ay talk that wa now taka thousands of aavironaantal aaasuraaeats sad fiber GONZALEZ002445 - 34- oooosntratlona. z ksov these are by tba light microscope bat it is tba bast we can do with a practical point of via. Ha hava brought about vary drastic reductions in asbastoa concentrations, but X agrss that thaaa standards vara dasignad to pravaat asbastoaia, and it Is certain aboot a standard for aasothellona. Axe.there questions? Q* I hava taro questions. Qua, bacaosa of the precautionary assorts that asbestos workers hava to taka, the plastic suits, they appear to be plastic, and the respirators and this type of thing, is there any compensation, shorter work hours or aonetaty compensation for this? Second question you raised about the throw away respirator, X would lika to hava that question answered as to its effectiveness for asbestos filtering. X believe that was your question. A. NULL yea, thank you. the first point ia that va do pay tba asm ao extra rata for wearing the comfortable clothing. Xt is Boat uncomfortable to do an l-hour day wearing an lapendow suit* So wa pay then purely for wearing an uaeenfertabla overall respirator. The second question was, waa a question that X posed. X an not aura - x do not know whether inybody has dooa any evaluation on this kind of tiling on the effectiveness of tbass respirators. As far as X know, they are not approved by our Ministry, our Department of l^loynent, for protection against asbestos dust. GONZALEZ00244I Q. !' sure that they * not approved, A m * guys i n wearing surgical Basks.-- Ift deferred for the aomnt with your permission. One question, I gathered eo-- where that sublimiaally you tend to have this type of work dona eosevhat in isolation on the ship. Is this correct? You don't nix a whole bunch of other eats in there with these chaps? So, this was always the problem that the nan would be in % working conditions that you've seen now with all the other trades and the levy in with then. Kowadsys, we do not let the other tredee go in until the asbestos work has been done and as we are not putting any asbestos back into our ahlpe, this would be s aelf-linlting problem. He isolate the workers as far as possible. In fact, it'e gone so far that our man are very particular when they see a dusty condition, and they insist that we evaluate the dust and let them know what the dust ia and what the concentrations are. I think this ia good that peopla are aware of the hazards. GONZALEZ00244' . -34- Jn-- ad July of lut yaar, i spant fiva Mki going thzoogh tha nuclamr com statiooa in Gramt Britmin and Z orna* back to Londoa to tmlk to th-- mbout hit I'd lunnd, od Dr. Linall spant 11 of y tina not talXing boat nnclamr probi-- bat talling -- aboot vbat thy v u i doing vith msbaitos in tb com tmtioni in . 110 amjor com burning mlmctricml atmtiona in Ingland mnd Valsa and thay bava a vary apaeial prograa that ia all tunad % op and in oparation. Z havan't aaan too anch ascitasant aboot that tritbin tha (tatas aa yat, but I aiaply aantien tbat tbay falt that tha noclaar probiaa vas handlad yaara ago, but tha asbesto probi ia vtry neta vith thas. that'a tha ramaoo Z matad aboot tha spraying on tha buildiaga and tha qnaation of ita osa in tha on-- imity, but it appaarad to -- it ia vmry vidaly osad stili. 0. Dr. Motean, Z vould liba to knov if you bava in your atadlas of yonr asothalio-- a -- if tha asparan-- of a-- king vaa brooght out in yonr stody? A. Bot aqr olaarly, vith tha sa-- probi-- that Dr. Idga -- tio-- d thia aorning, that Iota of thaaa paopla da bafoza -- ooald gat to thaau la ha-- , Z thinkr ais -- saofcars in aaongat onr 53, bot tbara'a no olear ralatlonahip -- far aa Z oan aaa ir-- tha incidan-- or tba provai-- of plaoral _______ in saoking habita -- far aa X can a-- . GONZALEZ00244! 37 Q. Dr. lelikQff aid once that tbe incidenc or tha occuance of tbe cancar in tha noa-wnoJcers is axtranaly lo -- 0 th*t cosract -- alnost non^axiabent. Lang caneara, othar caneara not turning oat to ba doraaat - apparantly ith anchara and aon-aaokara. Q. X would lika to ask thla of Dr. Salikoff, aa Dr. Sarria alao dld, ,, as te faathar thara ara any indicationa of hyparaaaoeptibility or sasoaptlbility to aaaothalioM. Ara tha paople at spacial riak7 fhia aa in peor laat alida. A. X thlnfc that Dr. Harrias la en to soNthlng. X think ha'a got a sania of scNthing. Va had ona asbestos vorkar in Doeal 32 in lavark, a nan ho davalopad a laft pleural aasotbalioaui and diad. la cana into tha trade in 1921. lia brother, thraa yaara yonager cana into tha trada in 1931. fhia la a father-acn-brothar-brother anin, roa can't gat into thla anin, (laoghter). Ha cana into tha trada thre* yoar* in 1931 rathar than 1121. la diad thraa yoara lanar of a laft plaoral nasotbeliona. la osfcad in tha cana oondltlona and Dr. Chnrg talla m hat ho eaanot tall ti logical saetona sport, fchey look idantical. lo that thara is nov s o n atupicin on ti beais of thasa cllnlcal inprasaiona that thasa nay ba sana suseeptibllity factor, lators is trying to tall os sonathing. Na ara too dansa so far to fiad oot. GONZALEZ00244 - 3* - Q. I * u going to ask you a question on the spraying of asbostoa. Most of tha formulations that contain asbestos a n 9 to 151 asbestos thar are sprayed by and laxga M a y clties and states have banned tha spraying of asbestos. On tha other hand they substitute synthetic fibers that essentially have the sase fonulation and that glues us sees conosrn. I, Let ns enlarge on the father-daughter, father-son syndics* In unions. Perhaps the unions ill now wish to either have their daagbtar* take on thsas jda or else glue it to soanbody site's kids, the first breakthrough Isvs seen bars where tba union fathers nay not bring their kids into the union. Doctors do this also. Stay with an and an equal rights don't get e n d ted. Zn/oiscussicm haze I recently pointed oat that a union nan rarely ever brings their dantfiters into tha onioe, but one sees a great nany sons, to equal opportunity han't really broken through, but perhaps with nosIts and these things in the picture, they nay choose to nix. hre there questions of the speaker? Q. Or. Isrrlee, Z had the privilege of nesting with you the otter day, and would you elaborate on that -change .procedure. If Z followed you correctly, and correct ne If Z'a wrong, the worker oosn into the locker coon area. Is reserved all these gaxneats including his mdexgarnants sod placed than in a locker, le was issued other gaxnanta to put on, including the coveralls and the safety paraphernalia. GONZALEZ0024! a ant to tba job alta. Ha. acooopliahad hla job and at tha and of tha shift ha renovad all thasa garnents and lafft thaa ln tha changa roca in a claan roon atnoaphare, abowarad, pickad up hla gananta and vanfe on hoaa, and han ha c a M 'back all tha garmnta that ha caca tha day bafora vara laondared and put lato tha zaoaptleal Cor usa tha folloving day. 0K. Z vant te ba aera ef that, beeansa I thlnk that Lt paraonally aa fir u I'i eoncarnad a atap abaad. Toa had coa qoaatlen. Doctor, I voold lika to oewnant on that yon varan't quita tora aboot tha toare of aabaatoa that that baakar had. Ono of qy oollaagoas soggested that he aight hava baos aoealifhting and that atjr ba your aourca of aniver and I voold alto liba to ooanant on tha fatte-aon b*a and to lay asida a laarnad oollaagoa aboot tha dantfitar. I had tvo daoghta. thay dida't gat in tha boaiaaaa bot tbay arriad tvo yoong a u that did gat lato tha boaiaaaa. to it'a all in tito fanily. Of ooona, it ia, and of eouraa, thia ia tha braakthrodgh tha obnia. han yon aaka thaa laondor tha atnff at ock. ha littla lady hoaa X-rayi on wg 4~*k at tha ottotiia tha ifa of tho goy that rao a boaiaaaa for 40 yoaxs. lo dlad of a very pacoliar cncer hloh tha pathologiata ooolda't quita daaaify thraa yaara ago. tha'a got all thia elassic atoff hich yoo'va baos ahoving no tha last 24 hooza. And aba navas eat naar tha daan plaat, bot aha'd baan lanadaring bar atoff, aa a good hooaavifa GONZALEZ00245 .-40 always do. And fact wa talked boot ii breaking that chain n d that's what you're talking about, of course, isn't it? i n thara question* back than? Q. Z would Uka to know, Dr. Harries, if tba pictures that yon boa1 aost hava baan for a grip out of tba aatarial and bagging, transporting and disposing of it and so on. And you also indicatad that tba -- ahila you wars waiting for na X lost sy train of thought. Anyway, 1*11 gat to Mf point bars. Do you raquira any type of raspiratory or prataotiva clothing protaction for installation of non-asbestos aatarial? A. fas, tba answar is yas. Ms ara not sbsolutaly carttin that tba aainly oaldua silioata typa of aatarial wa ara now using is going to ba safa in tba long tara. Tharafora, wa prowida a dost rsapirator and usnaally a brina nylon overall for work using these aatariala and tba rsapirator is optional, .if tba dost ooncastration is lass titan S ailligrans par cubio nstar. bat yon try to naka it obligatory whan it is about fiva illinatars per a*ic aster and this astna that it la obligatory during all rip-out procoduras. flunk you. Ms ara now ispoaing on tba next eats of spasirars.Mould you gins us a good hand of qplauae. GONZALEZ002451 It b u b u n known for years that sou paraoaa working In aabastoa production wr prono to dovolop a disabling lung disease. In tine. this condition became known u uboatosla and v u ralatad to exposure to high ; eoncontratlona of aabastoa dust. With further experience, it was found that nan could work with ubutos without development of lung disaua If dust eoncontratlona wars kept below a certain level. It h u been generally accepted that a worker will not develop ubeatoala If he la exposed to no aore than 5 Billion particles per cubic foot of air, even if this exposure eon* times for his entire working Lifetime. Although no eases of asbestosla are loKwn to have. oeeurred .when eeposuru-.have been ealntalned at or below this level, the AOQXH (which sets Indicated they intend to lower the TIP for aabestoe to 2 Billion particles per cubic foot in an affort to inoraase the safety faotor incorporated in the Halt. The V. S. Department of labor has already laeuad a regulation under the Valah-Seelr Act placing the W t for asbestos at 2 H m partiles per cubic foot for public eonferects In which they have Jurisdiction. Shis concentration of dust is generally not visible in the average work area unless a f i O N 7 A I F71M A R * -2 b* of light ctualog Tyndall affsct la prsasnt. Usually ch dust cooeontratlon wit be fro* 6-10 Million partiel par cuibc foot (HPPO') bafor* Ita pratense it vlaibla in varala lighting condition. Savaral yatra ago. It waa reportad that thara was an incraaaa in tha incidane of eancareua tutors, especially of tha lung, aaaoolatad with aahastoais. Recently thara have baan reporta of sene caneara occurring In individuala axpoaad to asbaatoa duat* but ate have not dsvaloped clinical aabaatoaia. It is ballavad by seat authorities that thasa casas bava baan associated with exposuras significantly exceeding the Threshold Liait Value. A typ of aancer naaed aaaothalioa* baa baan notad to ba aaaoolatad with abastos exposura in recant years. The tundra, hila rather few in nftaher to data nay occur In individuala with historias of only alight exposures, snd that aa auch as twenty to forty years arliar, Thara is considerable ridane that crooidolit is w a t frequently aaaoolatad with aasothalloaaa. fron the data available it appears that tha W f of 5 NEPCV is not low enough to protect against Mcothallcaut, and it is quit poaaibla that a NffCV is not either. Research on tha probi continuas. Control of abastos duat exposure is therefore necessary. Th control attedi are-. GONZALEZ0024S 3- r'* 'r>,r the f t t m m U|fln tha huilla# M i l a Ut ta * y v fiu r w n w a g h a i i M i T O u a i r p w i w "r n U i l i i l i fa g t a n p r o ts c t la n o t fft, wart ay-- ., A progra* . aanufaeturing, It would ba dtslrablt to know tbo dost eoa castrations where th sebastos is duaped iros bags into tbs. pulp slurry. Concentrations should also ba datersined atoara dusting occurs in finishing products. Wills Initial dust dstarslnatlons should ba aada at freqpflot intervals, orna tita * laval baa baan aatabliabad at satisfactory, tba frequency say ba extended to oocaslonal tasts to assura continuation of a satiafaotory condition. Pre-esploysset and periodic physical examination of workers art daalrabla, These should Includa chest X-rays to insura that tba wurkar has no ehast condition prior to work with asfbastos and to detyrslaa that no lung changes are raaultlat f writ with aabastoa. It is believed that the addition of aabastoa at the proposed lavala durine the ssmfaoture; of .paper products would ba harslets to the consumer. Total dustln# would l'SMKSS GONZALEZ002' -4. !nv# to b i l la xewa of any levela aecaptabl to th conaustr for tha aabaatoa concentration to approach th hrtahold Liait Valu, In concluion, whil* ubtitoi Cuit la axcaaa of th* Tfaraahold Liait Vtluo i potantially haraful, a r* atzqr othr duat neountarad In lnduatry, it la a raadily controllad u othar auob dusta and it can b* uaad afaly vlth approprit prcaution. GONZALEZ0024