Document 2j9RJJ2b8pR5jqnQZ47qKGp1N

1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 2 FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES 3 DEPARTMENT NO. 31 HON. G. KEITH WISOT, JUDGE 4 5 TRANSWESTERN PIPELINE COMPANY, A DELAWARE CORPORATION, 6 PLAINTIFF, 7 VS. 8 MONSANTO COMPANY AND DOES 1 9 THROUGH 200, INCLUSIVE, 10 DEFENDANTS. 11 ) ) ) ) ) ) NO. BC 026959 ) ) ) ) ) ) 12 13 REPORTER/S DAILY TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 14 TUESDAY, DECEMBER 21, 1993 15 VOLUME 24 16 PAGES 3683 THROUGH 3872 17 18 APPEARANCES: 19 FOR PLAINTIFF: 20 21 22 SHEARMAN & STERLING BY: JAMES P. TALLON, ESQ. & JANET M. GRADY, ESQ. & JERRY MARKS, ESQ. 725 SOUTH FIGUEROA STREET 21ST FLOOR LOS ANGELES, CA 90017 2 3 FOR DEFENDANT: 24 25 26 PREUSS, WALKER & SHANAGHER BY: CHARLES F. PREUSS, ESQ. & DONALD F. ZIMMER, ESQ. & ALAN LAZARUS, ESQ. 595 MARKET STREET 16TH FLOOR SAN FRANCISCO, CA 94105 27 DAVID A. SALYER, CSR #4410 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 28 111 NORTH HILL STREET LOS ANGELES, CA 90012 HARTOLDMON0041955 1 INDEX FOR VOLUME 24 PAGES 3683 THROUGH 3872 2 TUESDAY, DECEMBER 21, 1993 A.M. 3683 3 P.M. 3795 4 5 DEPO READING 6 FARMER, EARL 3683 7 8 9 PLF'S WITNESSESDIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 10 11 MASON, JOHN 3707 3754 12 SMID , MILTON 3829 3851 3868 3869 13 14 EXHIBITS FOR IDENTIFICATION IN EVIDENCE 15 572 -LETTER 3740 16 -LETTER 3744 17 550 -LETTER 3744 18 220 -DOCUMENT 3797 19 513 - MEMO 3849 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 i HARTOLDMON0041956 3708 1 Q AND WHERE DO YOU RESIDE, SIR? 2 A I RESIDE IN ENGLAND. 3 Q ALL RIGHT. AND IS YOUR WIFE PRESENT WITH 4 YOU HERE TODAY? 5 A YES, SHE IS. 6Q 7 SIR? AND DO YOU AND YOUR WIFE HAVE CHILDREN, 8 A WE DO, WE HAVE TWO DAUGHTERS. 9 Q AND SOME GRANDCHILDREN? 10 A YES, WE HAVE FOUR GRANDCHILDREN. 11 Q AND WHAT IS YOUR DATE OF BIRTH, SIR? 12 A MY DATE OF BIRTH IS 19 JULY, 1924. 13 Q AND ARE YOU PRESENTLY RETIRED, SIR? 14 A I AM, YES. 15 Q AND WHAT WAS YOUR LAST POSITION -- WHO 16 WAS YOUR LAST EMPLOYER WHEN YOU WERE EMPLOYED, SIR? 17 A MY LAST EMPLOYEE WAS MONSANTO COMPANY. 18 Q AND WHAT WAS YOUR LAST POSITION WITH 19 MONSANTO AT THE TIME OF YOUR RETIREMENT? 20 A MY LAST POSITION WAS CHAIRMAN OF THE 2 1 BOARD OF DIRECTORS OF MONSANTO OF THE UNITED KINGDOM. 22 Q WHAT IS YOUR EDUCATIONALBACKGROUND, SIR? 23 A MY EDUCATIONAL BACKGROUND IS I HAVE A 24 QUALIFICATION IN RUBBER CHEMISTRY FROM THE COLLEGE OF 25 CHEMISTRY IN MANCHESTER, ENGLAND. 26 Q WHEN DID YOU RECEIVE YOUR DEGREE FROM 27 THAT INSTITUTION, SIR? 28 A 1949. HARTOLDMON0041957 3709 1 Q SHORTLY AFTER THE WAR, THEN, YOU WENT TO 2 COLLEGE? 3 A YES, I WAS IN THE NAVY DURING THE WAR. 4Q 5 SIR? AND WHAT DOES RUBBER CHEMISTRY INVOLVE, 6 A RUBBER CHEMISTRY INVOLVES THE CHEMISTRY 7 OF RUBBER ITSELF AND MANY OTHER POLYMERS, PLASTICS 8 AND THE CHEMISTRY OF VULCANIZATION OF RUBBER, ET 9 CETERA. 10 Q AFTER YOUR STUDIES AT MANCHESTER, SIR, 11 DID YOU SEEK EMPLOYMENT? 12 A YES, I DID. 13 Q AND WHAT WAS YOUR FIRST JOB? 14 A MY FIRST JOB WAS WITH THE DUNLOP TIRE AND 15 RUBBER COMPANY IN THE UNITED KINGDOM. 16 I WAS WORKING FOR THEM WHILE I WAS 17 WORKING PART-TIME AFTER THE WAR. 18 Q WHAT WAS YOUR JOB WITH THAT ORGANIZATION? 19 A I WAS A RUBBER TECHNOLOGIST. 2 0 Q AND WHAT DID YOU DO AS A RUBBER 2 1 TECHNOLOGIST? 2 2 A MOST OF MY WORK WAS ASSOCIATED WITH 23 CONVEYER BELTING, HOSE AND TIRES. 24 I WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR TECHNICAL 25 OPERATIONS ON SOME OF THE SHOP FLOORS IN THE 2 6 INDUSTRIAL PART. 27 Q AND HOW LONG DID YOU STAY IN THAT 28 POSITION, SIR? ... ' ... ..................... HARTOLDMON0041958 3710 1 A I WAS THERE FROM '46 TO 749 WHEN I 2 GRADUATED. 3 THAT IS WHEN I CAME TO MONSANTO. 4 Q WHAT WAS YOUR FIRST POSITION WITH 5 MONSANTO, SIR? 6 A MY FIRST POSITION WITH MONSANTO WAS AS A 7 CHEMIST IN THE LABORATORIES AT RUABON, NORTH WALES 8 WHICH IS ONE OF THEIR LABS. 9 Q WHAT KIND OF WORK DID YOU DO? 10 A I WAS DOING MAINLY QUALITY CONTROL 11 TESTING AND ALSO DEVELOPMENT OF NEW RUBBER 12 CHEMICALS. 13 Q FOR APPLICATIONS IN A COMMERCIAL SETTING? 14 A YES . 15 Q AND HOW LONG DID YOU REMAIN AS A FIELD 16 SCIENTIST FOR MONSANTO? 17 A I THINK I WAS THERE THREE YEARS BEFORE I 18 TRANSFERRED TO THE MARKETING DEPARTMENT IN LONDON. 19 Q AND WHAT PRODUCTS WERE YOU MARKETING WHEN 20 YOU WERE TRANSFERRED TO LONDON, SIR? 2 1 A I WAS MARKETING PRIMARILY RUBBER 22 CHEMICALS AND POLYMERS. 23 Q HOW LONG DID YOU STAY IN LONDON WITH THE 24 MARKETING DEPARTMENT FOR RUBBER PRODUCTS? 25 A I THINK------ I THINK IT WAS THREE YEARS. 2 6 THEN I WAS APPOINTED AS SALES MANAGER FOR 27 RUBBER CHEMICALS. 28 Q AND THAT ALSO WAS IN LONDON? HARTOLDMONOQ41959 3711 1 A THAT WAS IN LONDON, YES, WORKING OUT OF 2 LONDON. 3 Q AND HOW LONG DID YOU STAY WITH THAT 4 POSITION, SIR? 5 A I THINK I WAS THERE ABOUT ANOTHER TWO OR 6 THREE YEARS. 7 THEN I WAS PROMOTED TO BE GENERAL MANAGER 8 OF CHEMICAL SALES. 9 Q AND THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN ABOUT WHAT TIME 10 FRAME? 11 A I THINK WE ARE GETTING THERE TO ABOUT 12 1958 , 7 5 9 . 13 Q ALL RIGHT. . 14 A I'M SORRY. 15 MY MEMORY IS NOT EXACT ON SOME OF THESE 16 DATES. BUT I DO MY BEST. 17 Q OKAY. AND AS OF THAT TIME, WHEN YOU GOT 18 THAT POSITION AS GENERAL MANAGER OF CHEMICAL SALES, 19 SIR, HAD YOU HAD ANY INVOLVEMENT WITH AROCLOR 2 0 PRODUCTS? 2 1 A . YES. 22 AROCLORS WERE SOME OF THE PRODUCTS UNDER 23 MY RESPONSIBILITY. 24 Q AND THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT YOU HAD 25 RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY AROCLOR PRODUCTS IN THE 26 MONSANTO ORGANIZATION? 27 A IT WAS, YES. 28 Q OKAY. TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR THE COURT HARTOLDMON0041960 3712 1 REPORTER, MR. MASON, TRY TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU LET ME 2 ASK MY QUESTION. 3 A MY APOLOGIES. 4 Q THEN HOW LONG DID YOU REMAIN AS GENERAL 5 MANAGER OF CHEMICAL SALES, SIR? 6 A IT WOULD BE, I SHOULD THINK, THREE YEARS. 7 AND THEN I WAS TRANSFERRED TO BRUSSELS AS 8 DIRECTOR OF MARKETING FOR EUROPE. 9 Q AND THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN EARLY 60'S, 10 THEN? 11 A EARLY 60'S. '62 I THINK IT WAS. 12 Q AND THAT WOULD BE MARKETING ALL MONSANTO 13 PRODUCTS? 14 A ALL MONSANTO PRODUCTS EXCEPT SYNTHETIC 15 FIBERS. 16 Q ALL RIGHT. AND HOW LONG DID YOU REMAIN 17 IN BRUSSELS IN THAT POSITION, SIR? 18 A I WAS THERE JUST OVER SIX YEARS. 19 Q YOUR NEXT POSITION WITH MONSANTO WAS 20 WHAT? 21 A I WAS TRANSFERRED TO ST. LOUIS. 22 I WAS ASSISTANT GENERAL MANAGER OF THE 2 3 ORGANIC DIVISION. 24 Q AND THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN WHEN? 25 A THAT WAS IN 1969. 26 Q AND HAD YOU BEEN NOTIFIED PRIOR TO THAT 27 TIME OF YOUR APPOINTMENT AS ASSISTANT MANAGER OF THE 28 ORGANIC DIVISION? HARTOLDMON0041961 3713 1 A I HAD, AT THE END OF 1968. 2 AND I COMMUTED TO THE UNITED STATES ON 3 TWO OR THREE OCCASIONS BEFORE I MOVED MY FAMILY HERE 4 IN, I IT THIS WAS EARLY JUNE OF '69. 5 Q OKAY. AND IS THAT -- WAS THAT YOUR 6 FIRST JOB WITH MONSANTO IN THIS COUNTRY, SIR? 7 A IT WAS, YES. 8 Q WHAT WAS THE BUSINESS OF THE ORGANIC 9 DIVISION? 10 A IT WAS TO MANUFACTURE AND MARKET ORGANIC 11 CHEMICALS. 12 Q AND TO WHOM DID YOU REPORT IN THAT NEW 13 JOB ASSIGNMENT AS ASSISTANT MANAGER? 14 A I REPORTED TO HOWARD MINCKLER WHO WAS THE 15 GENERAL MANAGER OF THE DIVISION. 16 Q AND DID YOU WORK WITH A MR. BERGEN? 17 A YES, I DID. 18 Q OKAY. AND WHAT WAS HIS RELATIONSHIP TO 19 YOU, SIR? 20 A HOWARD BERGEN REPORTED TO ME. 21 HE WAS DIRECTOR OF THE FUNCTIONAL 22 PRODUCTS GROUP. 2 3 Q AND THE FUNCTIONAL PRODUCTS GROUP 24 INVOLVED WHAT PRODUCT, SIR? 25 A IT INVOLVED A WHOLE RANGE OF FLUIDS, 26 INCLUDING THE AROCLORS. 27 Q NOW, CAN YOU TELL US WHAT THE NATURE OF 28 YOUR JOB AS ASSISTANT GENERAL MANAGER OF THE ORGANIC HARTOLDMON0041962 37 14 1 DIVISION WAS ONCE YOU HAD MOVED YOUR FAMILY TO THIS 2 COUNTRY IN JUNE OF 1969, SIR? 3 A MY JOB WAS TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE 4 PERFORMANCE OF THREE BUSINESS GROUPS, FUNCTIONAL 5 FLUIDS, RUBBER CHEMICALS AND PAPER CHEMICALS. 6 Q AND YOU MENTIONED MR. BERGEN WAS IN 7 CHARGE OF THE FUNCTIONAL FLUIDS? 8 A YES, HE WAS. 9 Q AND IN ADDITION TO THAT GROUP, THEN, YOU 10 ALSO HAD PAPER PRODUCTS AND RUBBER CHEMICALS? 11 A CORRECT. 12 Q ALL RIGHT. 13 DID YOU HAVE ANY SPECIFIC 14 RESPONSIBILITIES AS THEY RELATED TO THE PCB'S 15 SITUATION AS IT EXISTED IN 1969, SIR? 16 A YES, I DID. 17 WHEN I ARRIVED IN THE UNITED STATES IT 18 WAS BECOMING A VERY SERIOUS PROBLEM, OBVIOUSLY, FOR 19 THE COMPANY. 20 AND I WAS CHARGED BY HOWARD MINCKLER WITH 21 LOOKING AT AN OVERALL RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE SURE THE 22 COMPANY TOOK APPROPRIATE ACTION. 23 Q AND WHAT PERCENTAGE OF YOUR TIME DID YOU 24 SPEND IN '69, 770 AND '71, DURING THAT TIME FRAME, 25 SIR, INVOLVED IN DEALING WITH THE PCB SITUATION AS 26 YOU FOUND IT TO BE? 27 A I WOULD THINK IN THE EARLY STAGES, IN 28 ' 69, I PROBABLY SPENT ABOUT 20 PERCENT OF MY TIME. HARTOLDMON0041963 3715 1 LATER, AS WE MOVED INTO '70, '71, IT WAS 2 CERTAINLY UP TO 40 PERCENT IF NOT 50 PERCENT OF MY 3 TIME. 4 Q NOW, ONCE YOU GOT OVER HERE AND HAD 5 SETTLED YOUR FAMILY IN, DID YOU TAKE STEPS TO 6 ACQUAINT YOURSELF WITH THE PCB SITUATION, SIR? 7 A I CERTAINLY DID, YES. 8 Q AND WHAT DID YOU DO TO FAMILIARIZE 9 YOURSELF WITH THAT SITUATION? 10 A FIRST OF ALL, I THINK I INSURED THAT I 11 GOT AS MUCH INFORMATION AS POSSIBLE FROM THE MEMBERS 12 OF MONSANTO INVOLVED. 13 FOR EXAMPLE, THE PHYSICAL SCIENCE 14 DEPARTMENT WORKING IN THE ANALYTICAL DEVELOPMENT AREA 15 AND ALSO ON BIODEGRADATION. 16 I OBVIOUSLY SPENT A LOT OF TIME WITH THE 17 BUSINESS GROUP THEMSELVES CHECKING ON THE MARKETING 18 END OF WHAT WAS GOING ON THERE. 19 OUTSIDE THE COMPANY I TRIED TO ACQUAINT 20 MYSELF WITH AS MANY GOVERNMENT AGENCIES AS POSSIBLE, 2 1 THE FDA. 22 I ALSO MADE CONTACT WITH A DR. BURGER OF 2 3 THE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES WHO 24 WAS INTERESTED IN THIS PROBLEM. 25 AND I TRAVELED AROUND QUITE A BIT WITH 26 DR. KELLY WHO WAS THE MEDICAL OFFICER OF MONSANTO AT 27 THE TIME AND WHO HAD A LOT OF CONTACT WITH GOVERNMENT 28 AGENCIES. HARTOLDMON0041964 3716 1 Q DID YOU ALSO UNDERTAKE TO READ SOME OF 2 THE WRITTEN MATERIAL THAT HAD BEEN WRITTEN AND 3 EXCHANGED BETWEEN THE COMPANY BEFORE YOUR ARRIVAL? 4 A YES, I READ A LOT OF MATERIAL BOTH FROM 5 THE OUTSIDE PRESS, INTERNALLY, AND FROM VARIOUS 6 UNIVERSITIES AND LEARNED SCIENTISTS. 7 Q AND BASED ON YOUR FAMILIARIZATION 8 PROCESS, SIR, DID YOU FIND THAT CERTAIN ACTIVITIES 9 HAD BEEN COMMENCED BY MONSANTO TO DEAL WITH THE 10 PROBLEM? 11 A YES, THEY HAD. 12 Q ALL RIGHT. AND CAN YOU TELL US GENERALLY 13 WHAT STEPS THAT YOU HAD FOUND HAD ALREADY BEEN 14 COMMENCED BY MONSANTO WHEN YOU ARRIVED ON THE SCENE? 15 A YES . 16 WHEN I ARRIVED ON THE SCENE A VERY GREAT 17 EMPHASIS WAS BEING PUT ON THE DEVELOPMENT OF 18 ANALYTICAL PROCEDURES WHICH WERE ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL 19 TO THE WORK IN THIS AREA. 20 I THINK BY THEN THE COMPANY WAS BEGINNING 2 1 TO UNDERSTAND CLEARLY WHAT THE PROBLEM WAS. 22 THAT MAY SOUND STUPID TO SAY IT HAD FIRST 23 COME TO LIGHT IN 1966, BUT IN A VERY VAGUE WAY, IT 24 TOOK A LOT OF VERY SOPHISTICATED SCIENTIFIC 25 DEVELOPMENT IN THE ANALYTICAL FIELD TO REALLY DEFINE 26 THAT PROBLEM AND TO KNOW WHAT WAS HAPPENING. 27 THE ONLY WAY WE COULD BEGIN TO FACE UP TO 28 THAT PROBLEM WAS TO CLEARLY UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING HARTOLDMON0041965 37 17 1 ABOUT IT. 2 I THINK THAT WAS THE EMPHASIS AT THE 3 TIME . 4 IN ADDITION TO THAT, OF COURSE, WE WERE 5 ALREADY BEGINNING TO BE CAREFUL WHERE WE SOLD THE 6 PRODUCTS, TO LOOK AT CLOSED SYSTEMS AND OPEN SYSTEMS. 7 THERE WAS AN AD HOC COMMITTEE WORKING AT 8 THAT TIME WITH REPRESENTATIVES FROM MARKETING, THE 9 BUSINESS GROUP, RESEARCH, THE MEDICAL AUTHORITIES WHO 10 WERE BEGINNING TO PUT TOGETHER DEFINITE PLANS. 11 Q ALL RIGHT. DID YOU FIND THAT ANY WORK 12 HAD BEEN COMMENCED IN THE AREA OF BIODEGRADATION 13 STUDIES AT THE TIME THAT YOU CAME? 14 A YES, CERTAINLY. 15 THERE WERE STUDIES GOING ON IN ST. LOUIS 16 AND ALSO IN THE UNITED KINGDOM AT RUABON. 17 Q' HOW ABOUT IN THE AREA OF TOXICOLOGY, 18 ANYTHING THAT STARTED THERE? 19 A YES, TOXICOLOGY WORK WAS GOING ON AT THAT 20 TIME . 2 1 I CAN'T QUITE REMEMBER THE NAME OF THE 22 COMPANY DOING IT FOR US, BUT IT WAS BEING DONE 23 OUTSIDE BY A SEPARATE COMPANY. 24 Q WAS IT IBT? 25 A YES, IT WAS. 2 6 Q AND YOU MENTIONED THAT YOU HAD FOUND THAT 27 THERE HAD BEEN SOME -- YOU HAD INITIATED, ACTUALLY, 28 SOME COMMUNICATIONS OUTSIDE OF MONSANTO WITH RESPECT HARTOLDMON0041966 3718 1 TO EXCHANGE OF INFORMATION. 2 DID YOU FIND OUT THAT ALSO HAD BEEN 3 COMMENCED IN THE SCIENTIFIC SIDE OF MONSANTO TO 4 CONSULT WITH SCIENTISTS OUTSIDE OF THE MONSANTO 5 ORGANIZATION ON THIS ISSUE? 6 A YES, IT CERTAINLY HAD. 7 I MEAN, THERE HAD BEEN COMMUNICATIONS 8 WITH SOME OF THE ORIGINAL RESEARCHERS IN THIS AREA, 9 THE SWEDES, FOR EXAMPLE, AND ALSO THERE HAD BEEN 10 SEVERAL MEETINGS IN THE UNITED STATES WITH VARIOUS 11 UNIVERSITY AUTHORITIES AND BODIES WHO WERE INTERESTED 12 IN THIS PROBLEM. 13 Q ALL RIGHT. NOW, YOU MENTIONED THE AD HOC 14 COMMITTEE. 15 YOU FOUND THAT THAT WAS IN EXISTENCE WHEN 16 YOU FIRST CAME; IS THAT RIGHT? 17 A YES, IT WAS, YES. 18 Q AND WHAT WAS YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF ITS 19 PURPOSE, SIR? 20 A IT'S PURPOSE, I THINK, WAS TO INSURE THAT 2 1 WE CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD WHAT THE PROBLEM WAS AND TO 22 BEGIN TO DEVELOP PLANS TO RESOLVE IT. 23 Q DID THAT COMMITTEE PRESENT ANY 24 RECOMMENDATIONS TO HIGHER MANAGEMENT OF MONSANTO 25 AFTER YOU ARRIVED, SIR? 26 A IT DID. 27 AFTER MY ARRIVAL IN NOVEMBER, 1969, THEY 28 MADE A SERIES OF PRESENTATIONS TO WHAT WAS THEN THE HARTO L D M O N0041967 3719 1 CORPORATE DEVELOPMENT COMMITTEE. 2 THAT WAS THE SENIOR MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE 3 OF THE COMPANY, HEADED UP BY THE PRESIDENT. 4 AND THEY MET WITH THAT COMMITTEE, 5 REPRESENTATIVES FROM RESEARCH, THE MEDICAL 6 DEPARTMENT, MARKETING, THE TWO BUSINESS DIRECTORS 7 INVOLVED, MR. BERGEN AND MR. SPRINGGATE, AS AROCLORS 8 WERE ALSO USED AT THAT TIME IN HIS BUSINESS GROUP. 9 HE WAS HEADING UP PLASTICIZERS. 10 AND THE GENERAL MANAGER OF THE ORGANIC 11 DIVISION AND MYSELF WERE ALL PRESENT AT THAT 12 MEETING. 13 Q SO MR. MINCKLER WAS PRESENT IN ADDITION 14 TO YOU? 15 A HE WAS. 16 Q ALL RIGHT. WAS A MR. WHEELER PRESENT, DO 17 YOU RECALL? 18 A HE WAS. 19 HE REPRESENTED THE MEDICAL DEPARTMENT, 20 YES . 2 1 Q AND HAD YOU HAD DISCUSSIONS WITH 22 MR. MILLER (SIC) AFTER YOU GOT OVER HERE AFTER MID 23 '79 TO HELP FAMILIARIZE YOURSELF? 24 A YES, I HAD. 25 Q NOW, YOU MENTIONED THAT THE CMC WAS THE 26 TOP MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE. 27 DID THAT ALSO CONSIST OF THE PRESIDENT 28 AND WERE THERE BOARD MEMBERS AS WELL THAT WERE HARTOLDMON0041968 3720 1 REPRESENTED? 2 A THERE WERE BOARD MEMBERS BUT THEY WERE 3 INTERNAL BOARD MEMBERS, NO EXTERNAL BOARD MEMBERS 4 WERE IN THAT COMMITTEE. 5 Q AND WHO MADE THE PRESENTATION TO THE CMC 6 IN NOVEMBER OF 1969? 7 A. THE PRESENTATION WAS MADE BY SEVERAL 8 PEOPLE, BY HOWARD BERGEN, BY SPRINGGATE, BY^ELMER 9 WHEELER. 10 WE HAVE JUST MENTIONED HIM FROM THE 11 MEDICAL DEPARTMENT AND ALSO, I THINK, I'M NOT 100 12 PERCENT SURE, DR. KELLER FROM PHYSICAL SCIENCES WAS 13 PRESENT AND MADE A PRESENTATION. 14 I'M NOT 100 PERCENT SURE ON THAT. 15 Q AND YOU YOURSELF WERE PRESENT? 16 A I WAS PRESENT. 17 Q AND WHAT WAS THE NATURE OF THE 18 PRESENTATION, GENERALLY SPEAKING? 19 A THE NATURE OF THE PRESENTATION WAS TO 20 DEFINE THE PROBLEM AS WE UNDERSTOOD IT AND TO MAKE A 2 1 NUMBER OF RECOMMENDATIONS AS TO WHAT WE SHOULD DO TO 22 RESOLVE IT AND GET IT UNDER CONTROL. 2 3 Q OKAY. DID THE CMC TAKE ACTION ON THOSE 24 RECOMMENDATIONS? 25 A THEY CERTAINLY DID. 26 Q AND WHAT ACTION DID THEY TAKE? 27 A WELL, ONE OF THE FIRSTRECOMMENDATIONS 28 MADE WAS THAT WE SHOULD APPOINT A PROJECT MANAGER HARTOLDMON0041969 372 1 1 WITH OVERALL RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE AROCLOR 2 SITUATION. 3 THE CDC AT THAT TIME ACCEPTED THAT FULLY 4 AND SHORTLY AFTER THAT MEETING HE WAS APPOINTED. 5 Q OKAY. 6 A SORRY. 7 Q LET ME INTERRUPT YOU. 8 MR. MASON, WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO DO AT 9 THIS TIME IS HAVE YOU TURN AROUND, IF YOU WOULD, 10 PLEASE, AND LOCATE IN THE BINDERS THERE, THE BLUE 11 BINDERS, IT WOULD BE THE FIRST EXHIBIT IN VOLUME 12 THREE. 13 IT'S TRANSWESTERN EXHIBIT 111. 14 A YES . 15 Q ALL RIGHT. AND CAN YOU IDENTIFY THIS FOR 16 US, SIR? 17 A YES . 18 THIS IS AN EXTRACT FROM THE MINUTES OF 19 THE CORPORATE DEVELOPMENT COMMITTEE MEETING WHICH I 20 REFERRED TO, NOVEMBER THE 17TH. 2 1 Q. ALL RIGHT. THE ONE IN WHICH THE TASK 22 FORCE MADE ITS PRESENTATION TO THE CMC? 23 A THAT IS CORRECT, YES. 24 Q ALL RIGHT. AND THE PRESIDENT AT THE TIME 25 OF MONSANTO WAS A MR. BOCK? 26 A YES . 27 Q AND THEN THOSE PRESENT SHOWS YOURSELF AND 28 YOU MENTIONED MR. BERGEN. .............. " .... ... HARTOLDMON0041970 3722 1 HE WAS THE HEAD OF THE FUNCTIONAL FLUIDS, 2 RIGHT? 3 A YES . 4 Q AND THEN MR. SPRINGGATE? 5 A YES . 6 Q WHAT WAS HIS TITLE AT THE TIME? 7 A HE WAS DIRECTOR OF THE PLASTICIZERS 8 BUSINESS GROUP. 9 Q ALL RIGHT. AND R. E. KELLY WAS WHO? 10 A THAT WAS DR. KELLY, MEDICAL OFFICER OF 11 MONSANTO. 12. Q ALL RIGHT. AND THEN YOU MENTIONED 13 MR. WHEELER? 14 A YES . 15 Q ALL RIGHT. 16 A I WAS IN ERROR WHEN I SAID THAT 17 DR. KELLER WAS AT THE MEETING. 18 Q IT LOOKS LIKE HE WAS NOT. 19 IF YOU TURN TO THE SECOND PAGE, THAT 20 WOULD INDICATE THAT MR. WHEELER MADE A PRESENTATION 2 1 ON BEHALF OF THE, I GUESS, THE MEDICAL DEPARTMENT. 2 2 IS THAT THE TITLE OF IT? 2 3 A YES . 24 Q ALL RIGHT. AND THEN THE RECOMMENDATIONS 25 WERE PRESENTED BY MR. BERGEN AND MR. SPRINGGATE; IS 26 THAT RIGHT 7 27 A YES, THAT IS CORRECT, YES. 28 Q AND ONE OF THE RECOMMENDATIONS WAS "TO HARTOLDMON0041971 3723 1 ESTABLISH A TAILORED PROGRAM FOR EACH BUSINESS GROUP 2 AND EACH CUSTOMER MARKET SITUATION TO ASSURE THAT THE 3 LOSS OF PCB'S IN THE ENVIRONMENT, IF ANY, IS 4 MINIMAL." 5 A YES . 6 Q WHAT WAS THE THRUST OF THAT 7 RECOMMENDATION, SIR? 8 A WELL, I THINK THE THRUST OF THAT WAS . 9 FIRST OF ALL, AS I SAID, TO APPOINT A PROJECT 10 MANAGER. 11 I IT THIS WAS VERY IMPORTANT TO HAVE ONE 12 INDIVIDUAL WHO HAD OVERALL RESPONSIBILITY FOR PUTTING 13 THESE PLANS TOGETHER. 14 I THINK WE ALSO FELT VERY STRONGLY THAT 15 WE HAD TO INVOLVE OUR CUSTOMERS AT THAT TIME. THEY 16 HAD TO BECOME FULLY AWARE OF THE PROBLEM AND HAD TO 17 BE EDUCATED, IF NECESSARY, TO HANDLE THE PRODUCTS 18 CORRECTLY AND INSURE THAT THEY WERE HANDLED WITHOUT 19 GOING INTO THE ENVIRONMENT. 20 Q ALL RIGHT. LET'S TAKE THE FIRST THING 2 1 YOU MENTIONED, WHICH WAS APPOINTMENT OF A PROJECT 22 MANAGER, SIR. 23 A YES . 24 Q THAT WAS THE NUMBER-ONE RECOMMENDATION. 25 WAS THAT CARRIED OUT AFTER THIS MEETING, 26 SIR? 27 A YES, IT WAS, VERY SHORTLY AFTERWARDS. 28 Q WERE YOU INVOLVED IN THAT PROCESS? HARTOLDMON0041972 3724 1 A I WAS, YES. 2 Q AND WHAT WAS THE NATURE OF YOUR 3 INVOLVEMENT? 4 .A MY INVOLVEMENT WAS NOT TO IDENTIFY A 5 CANDIDATE BECAUSE I HADN'T BEEN IN ST. LOUIS FOR LONG 6 ENOUGH TO KNOW ALL THE PEOPLE. 7 IT WAS TO APPROVE A CANDIDATE WHO WAS 8 SELECTED WHO I WAS VERY PLEASED TO DO. 9 IT WAS MR. PAPAGEORGE, OF COURSE, WHO I 10 THINK DID AN OUTSTANDING JOB IN THIS AREA. 11 Q AND YOU PARTICIPATED INACTUALLY TALKING 12 TO MR. PAPAGEORGE BEFORE HIS SELECTION, SIR? 13 A I CERTAINLY DID. 14 Q ALL RIGHT. ' AND YOU MENTIONED ALSO THAT 15 THE -- ONE OF THE RECOMMENDATIONS WAS TO NOTIFY ALL 16 AROCLOR CUSTOMERS OF THE PCB PROBLEM. 17 WAS THAT SOMETHING THAT YOU GOT INVOLVED 18 IN AFTER THIS MEETING, SIR? 19 A IT WAS, NOT BY PERSONALLY VISITING 20 CUSTOMERS. 21 THAT WASN'T MY JOB. 22 I HAD AN OVERALL MANAGEMENT JOB. 23 BUT I WAS CONCERNED VERY MUCH WITH THE 24 BUSINESS GROUP, EDUCATING THEIR SALESMEN, SEEING 25 THEIR SALESMEN DID THE JOB. 26 WE USED TO HOLD QUARTERLY MEETINGS WHERE 27 THE REGIONAL SALES MANAGERS, THOSE ARE THE MONSANTO 28 MANAGERS OUT IN THE FIELD IN THE DIFFERENT PARTS OF HARTOLDMONOQ41973 3725 1 THE UNITED STATES, CAME IN TO ST. LOUIS AND WE 2 EXPLAINED TO THEM IN DETAIL WHAT THE PROBLEM WAS. 3 WE CONTINUED TO IMPRESS UPON THEM THE 4 NEED FOR VERY CAREFUL HANDLING OF THESE MATERIALS. 5 AND I CAN REMEMBER TWO OCCASIONS, AT 6 LEAST, WHEN I PERSONALLY MADE A PRESENTATION TO THAT 7 GROUP WHEN THEY CAME TO ST. LOUIS. 8 Q ALL RIGHT. AND "THAT GROUP" BEING THE 9 SALES ORGANIZATION OF MONSANTO THAT WERE - 10 A THAT BEING THE REGIONAL SALES MANAGERS. 11 MONSANTO HAS A REGIONAL SALES MANAGER IN 12 ALL THE MAJOR AREAS OF THE UNITED STATES. 13 THEY HAVE REPORTING IN TO THEM SALESMEN 14 AND AMONG THOSE SALESMEN WOULD BE AN AROCLOR 15 SALESMAN, A FUNCTIONAL FLUIDS SALESMAN. 16 Q OKAY. NOW, AFTER THIS MEETING, SIR, 17 WAS -- LET ME WITHDRAW THAT QUESTION. 18 WERE THESE RECOMMENDATIONS AN ACTION PLAN 19 IN ITSELF TO THE CMC? 20 A NOT IN MY OPINION. 2 1 I CONSIDER AN ACTION PLAN THAT IS TO BE 22 VERY CLEARLY A LIST OF ACTIONS TIED TO DATES. 2 3 THIS WAS A SERIES OF GENERAL 24 RECOMMENDATIONS PRIOR TO DEVELOPING A PLAN OF THAT 25 TYPE. 26 Q NOW, WHEN DID MR. PAPAGEORGE TAKE HIS 27 POSITION AS THE HEAD OF ENVIRONMENTAL CONTROL FOR THE 28 COMPANY? J HARTOLDMON0041974 3726 1 A EXCUSE ME? . 2 Q WHEN DID MR. PAPAGEORGE COME ON BOARD AS 3 THE HEAD OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL? 4 A I CAN'T REMEMBER THE DATE. 5 BUT I WOULD THINK A FEW WEEKS OF THAT 6 MEETING. 7 Q AFTER HE CAME ON BOARD WAS THERE A 8 SPECIFIC ACTION PLAN, AS YOU HAVE DESCRIBED^ FOR US, 9 UNDERTAKEN? 10 A HE BEGAN TO DEVELOP THAT PLAN. 11 Q AND DID YOU HAVE ANY INVOLVEMENT IN THE 12 PREPARATION OF THAT PLAN, SIR? 13 A YES. I CERTAINLY DID.- 14 I WOULD NOT SAY IN THE INITIAL 15 PREPARATION BUT RATHER IN A SERIES OF MEETINGS WHEN 16 WE REVIEWED THE PLAN THAT WAS BEGINNING TO EMERGE AND 17 ALSO I MADE SEVERAL RECOMMENDATIONS TO MR. PAPAGEORGE 18 PRIOR TO THE PLAN BEING PRESENTED TO THE CORPORATE 19 DEVELOPMENT COMMITTEE. 20 Q ALL RIGHT. 2 1 YOU USED THE TERM "CORPORATE DEVELOPMENT 22 COMMITTEE." 23 IS THAT SYNONYMOUS WITH THE CORPORATE 24 MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE? 25 A YES, IT IS, SIR. 26 I APOLOGIZE BUT THE COMPANY HAD A HABIT 27 OF CHANGING NAMES OF COMMITTEES. 28 I THINK MOST BIG COMPANIES DO. HARTOLDMON0041975 3727 1 Q SO WHETHER WE SAY CMC OR CDC WE ARE 2 TALKING ABOUT THE SAME TOP MANAGEMENT GROUP? 3 A YES, SIR. 4 Q AND WAS MR. PAPAGEORGE'SPROGRAM AS 5 DISCUSSED WITH VARIOUS INDIVIDUALS PRESENTED TO THE 6 CMC? 7 A IT WAS, YES. 8 Q DO YOU RECALL WHEN IT WAS INITIALLY 9 PRESENTED? 10 A IT WAS INITIALLY PRESENTED INAPRIL OF 11 1970. . 12 I CAN'T REMEMBER THE EXACT DAY. 13 Q AND WHO MADE THE ACTUAL PRESENTATION? 14 A THE PRESENTATION WAS MADE BY 15 MR. PAPAGEORGE. 16 Q AND WERE YOU PRESENT AT THE TIME? 17 A I WAS. 18 Q ALL RIGHT. AND WHAT ACTION, IF ANY, DID 19 THE BOARD TAKE ON THE RECOMMENDED -- THE PLAN OF 20 ACTION THAT WAS BEING PUT FORTH TO THE CDC OR CMC? 2 1 A WELL, IN GENERAL THEY APPLAUDED THE PLAN 22 AS BEING A SENSIBLE APPROACH. 2 3 THEY CONSIDERED THAT WE SHOULD BE LOOKING 24 TO MOVE FASTER AND THEY DID POINT OUT THAT THEY FELT 25 WE SHOULD DISCONTINUE THE SALES OF AROCLORS 1254 AND 2 6 1260, WHICH WERE THE HIGHER-CHLORINATED AROCLORS, THE 27 ONES WHICH, IN GENERAL, WERE BEING FOUND IN THE 28 ENVIRONMENT. HARTOLDMON0041976 3728 1 Q ALL RIGHT. AND AFTER THAT MEETING WERE 2 REVISIONS MADE TO THE TIMING OF THIS PLAN OF ACTION? 3 A YES, I THINK THEY WERE. 4 Q AND WAS THERE A SUBSEQUENT PRESENTATION 5 TO THE CMC WITH THIS REVISED SCHEDULE? 6 A YES . 7 IN MAY WE WENT BACK TO THE CMC. 8 Q WHO MADE THE PRESENTATION AT THAT TIME, 9 SIR? 10 A I MADE THE PRESENTATION AT THAT TIME. 11 Q ALL RIGHT. AND WHAT ACTION, IF ANY, DID 12 THE CORPORATE MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE TAKE ON THIS 13 REVISED SCHEDULE AND PLAN OF ACTION? 14 A WELL, IT WAS SATISFIED WITH THAT. 15 BUT ONE ISSUE WE RAISED WITH THEM WAS THE 16 ISSUE WE DID NOT FEEL IT WOULD BE WISE TO DISCONTINUE 17 THE MARKETING OF AROCLORS 1254 AND 1260 AT THAT TIME. 18 WE HAD VERY GOOD REASONS FOR THAT. 19 Q WHAT WERE THEY, SIR? 20 A THOSE PRODUCTS WERE BASICALLY USED IN THE 2 1 ELECTRICAL INDUSTRY AND WE FELT VERY STRONGLY, IN 22 FACT, OUR CUSTOMERS, THE MAJOR ELECTRICAL PRODUCERS 23 AND MANUFACTURERS IN THIS COUNTRY FELT THAT THERE WAS 24 A VERY REAL DANGER IF THEY DID NOT HAVE THOSE 25 PRODUCTS, WHICH WERE THE PRODUCTS USED IN 26 TRANSFORMERS AND CAPACITORS, THEY WOULD BE IN VERY 27 SERIOUS DANGERS OF FIRE RISK IN LARGE BUILDINGS. 28 ' WE COULD -- IN FACT, ONE MANUFACTURER DID HARTOLDMON0041977 3 729 1 STATE TO US, "WE COULD HAVE A BLACKOUT IN NEW YORK." 2 I PERSONALLY FELT THAT WAS A SLIGHT 3 EXAGGERATION, BUT NONETHELESS WE COULD FORESEE VERY 4 SIGNIFICANT PROBLEMS IF THESE PRODUCTS WERE WITHDRAWN 5 IMMEDIATELY WITHOUT ANY ALTERNATES BEING MADE 6 AVAILABLE. 7 Q ALL RIGHT. WOULD YOU TURN AROUND AND GET 8 FOR US OR REVIEW FOR YOURSELF EXHIBIT 152. 9 ACTUALLY I THINK IT'S IN THAT SAME VOLUME 10 THREE. 11 A OH, GOOD. 12 152? 13 Q YES, SIR. 14 A MINUTES OFTHE MEETING OF THE CORPORATE 15 MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE, MAY 11. 16 Q WERE THESE THE MINUTES IN WHICH THE 17 REVISED SCHEDULE AND PLAN OF ACTION WAS APPROVED, 18 SIR? 19 A YES . 20 Q AND THE DATE BEING MAY 11, 1970? 21 A CORRECT. 22 Q AND YOU BEING PRESENT? 23 A YES. . 24 Q AND MR. MINCKLER WHO WAS YOUR BOSS WAS 25 ALSO PRESENT? 2 6 A YES. 27 Q AND, AGAIN, DR. KELLY; IS THAT RIGHT? 28 A DR. KELLY, YES. HARTOLDMON0041978 3730 1 Q AND THE PLAN AS APPROVED HAD HOW MANY 2 STEPS, SIR? 3 A I THINK THERE WERE SIX; ONE, TWO, THREE, 4 FOUR, FIVE, SIX. . 5 Q OKAY. AND WITH RESPECT TO THOSE STEPS, 6 WERE ACTUAL CHRONOLOGIC DEADLINES APPLIED? 7 A YES, THEY WERE. 8 Q FOR THE ACCOMPLISHMENT OF THOSE? 9 A YES, THERE WERE. 10 Q WHY DON'T WE GO THROUGH THE SIX ACTION 11 STEPS AND THE TIME FRAME AS ADOPTED IN THE MAY 12 MEETING. 13 WERE DON'T YOU START WITH THE FIRST ONE, 14 IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE. 15 A "DISCONTINUE SALE OF AROCLOR 1242 TO NCR, 16 THAT IS NATIONAL CASH REGISTER, AND REPLACE WITH 17 HP-40 IN THE UNITED KINGDOM AND MIBP IN THE UNITED 18 STATES. COMPLETE UK, JULY THE 1ST, 1970 AND IN THE 19 U.S. JANUARY 3 OTH, 1971." 20 THE DIFFERENCE IN THE TIMING IS THE 21 UNITED KINGDOM COMPANY, WIGGINS TEAPE, WHO WERE 22 OPERATING FROM THE LICENSE UNDER NATIONAL CASH 23 REGISTER WERE ABLE TO ADAPT THEIR PROCESS TO USE AN 24 EXISTING MONSANTO PROCESS HP 40. 25 THE PROCESS WAS SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT AND 26 THEY HAD TO HAVE A NEW PRODUCT MADE AND DEVELOPED FOR 27 THEM TO MEET THEIR REQUIREMENTS. 28 HENCE, OF COURSE, IT TOOK TIME TO DEVELOP HART6 L D M 6 NO041979 3731 1 THAT. 2 Q HOW ABOUT THE NUMBER TWO STEP, SIR? 3 A NUMBER TWO, "CLOSE THE LOOP ON HEAT 4 TRANSFER APPLICATIONS WHERE FIRE RESISTANCE IS VITAL 5 AND REPLACE WITH ALTERNATIVES, ALTERNATES IN OTHER 6 CASES. COMPLETE BY DECEMBER 30TH, 1970." 7 Q ALL RIGHT. AND THE HEAT TRANSFER 8 APPLICATIONS WERE WHAT, SIR? 9 A WELL, THESE WERE WHERE YOU ARE 10 TRANSFERRING HEAT THROUGH A SERIES OF COILS OR PIPES 11 FROM ONE PLACE TO ANOTHER. 12 Q ALL RIGHT. AND NUMBER 3. 13 A NUMBER 3, "REPLACE ALL. NON-BIODEGRADABLE 14 CHLORINATED BIPHENYLS IN HYDRAULIC APPLICATIONS. 15 "COMPLETE 20 PERCENT ON AUGUST THE 1ST, 16 40 PERCENT NOVEMBER THE 1ST, AND FULL COMPLETION OF 17 100 PERCENT ON DECEMBER THE 30TH." 18 Q OKAY. AND NUMBER 4? 19 A NUMBER 4, "CLOSE THE LOOP ON ALL 20 NON-BIODEGRADABLE CHLORINATED BIPHENYLS IN 21 TRANSFORMER APPLICATIONS. COMPLETE AUGUST THE 1ST." 22 THIS IS THE APPLICATION I EMPHASIZED 23 BEFORE AND A STRONG FEELING WAS THAT THESE 24 TRANSFORMERS SYSTEMS WERE CLOSED UNITS WHICH WERE 25 MANUFACTURED AND SEALED. 26 HENCE THE LIKELIHOOD OF THE 27 POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS ESCAPING INTO THE 28 ENVIRONMENT WAS VERY SMALL. HARTOLDMON0041980 3732 1 Q NUMBER FIVE? 2 A NUMBER FIVE, "CLOSE THE LOOP ON 3 CAPACITORS AS FAR AS POSSIBLE AND REPLACE 1242 WITH 4 1242-B." 5 NOW, 1242 WAS A PRODUCT WHICH HAD SOME OF 6 THE HIGHER-CHLORINATED FRACTIONS THERE. 7 1242-B WAS A PRODUCT WHERE THOSE HAD BEEN 8 STRIPPED OUT. HENCE WE WERE HOPING TO DEVELOP A 9 PRODUCT WHICH WAS BIODEGRADABLE SHOULD IT ESCAPE TO 10 THE ENVIRONMENT. 11 Q YOU.MEAN TOTALLY BIODEGRADABLE? 12 A TOTALLY BIODEGRADABLE. 13 IN TIME, I HAVE TO EMPHASIZE, IT TAKES 14 TIME . 15 Q FOR THAT PROCESS TO BE ACCOMPLISHED? 16 A CERTAINLY, YES. 17 Q' AND THE LAST STEP, SIR? 18 A "TERMINATE SALES OF ALL NON-BIODEGRADABLE 19 CHLORINATED BIPHENYLS TO VARIOUS NON-CONTROLLABLE END 20 USES . 21 22 Q "COMPLETE AUGUST 30TH, 1970." AND WHAT WAS YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE 23 MEANING OF "NON-CONTROLLABLE END USE"? 24 A THAT WAS A USE WHERE IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO 25 CLOSE THE LOOP, WHERE THERE WAS GOING TO BE, 2 6 PROBABLY, ESCAPE TO THE ENVIRONMENT. 27 Q WHERE YOU COULD ANTICIPATE THAT THROUGH 28 NORMAL USE? HARTOLDMON0041981 3733 1 A YES, I THINK SO. 2 Q AND DID THE CMC PUT ANY RESTRICTION UPON 3 ANY CHANGE IN THIS SCHEDULE WITHOUT THEIR REVIEW? 4 A YES, I THINK YOU WILL REFER TO IT IN A 5 MINUTE. 6 I THINK THEY SAID WE SHOULD NOT MAKE ANY 7 CHANGES TO THE PLAN WITHOUT REFERRING BACK TO THEM. 8 I'M NOT SURE IF IT'S HERE OR NOT. 9 Q I THINK IT'S ON THE BOTTOM OF THE FIRST 10 PAGE HERE. 11 A YEAH. 12 Q AND DID THE CMC CONTEMPLATETHAT THESE 13 STEPS WOULD REQUIRE SOME EXPENSE ON MONSANTO'S 14 BEHALF? 15 A OH, CERTAINLY, YES. 16 Q AND THOSE WERE APPROVED, ASWELL, AT THE 17 MEETING? 18 A YES. 19 I THINK IT'S ON THE NEXT PAGE. 20 I IT THIS WAS ESTIMATED THAT IT REQUIRED 2 1 SOME $3.5 MILLION OF NEW CAPITAL TO PUT THIS PLAN 22 INTO FULL EFFECT. 2 3 Q ALL RIGHT. NOW, AFTER THIS PLAN WAS 24 ADOPTED AND THE SCHEDULE ADOPTED IN MAY, SIR, WERE 25 THERE SUBSEQUENT MEETINGS WITH THE CMC TO CHECK ON 2 6 THE PROGRESS OF THE COMPANY IN MEETING THE DIRECTIVES 27 OF THE CMC? 28 A YES, SIR. HARTO L D M O N0041982 3734 1 THE CORPORATE MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE 2 NORMALLY MET ONCE A WEEK ON A MONDAY. 3 HOWARD MINCKLER, MY BOSS, THE HEAD OF 4 ORGANIC DIVISION, WAS A MEMBER OF THAT COMMITTEE. 5 SO HE WOULD PUT IN REGULAR BRIEF COMMENTS 6 OR HAPPENINGS THAT OCCURRED DURING THE WEEK. 7 PRIOR TO THE MEETING HE WAS ALWAYS 8 BRIEFED BY MYSELF AND VERY OFTEN BY PAPAGEORGE. 9 HOWEVER, IN ADDITION TO THIS WE MET WITH 10 THE CMC TO MAKE FORMAL PRESENTATIONS TO MEASURE OUR 11 PROCESS ON I THINK THREE MONTHLY BASES. 12 I THINK THE NEXT MEETING AFTER THIS MAY 1 13 WAS A LITTLE LONGER, EXCUSE ME, WAS SEPTEMBER. 14 AND THE NIGHT WE MET EARLY IN 1971 WITH 15 THEM, IN MARCH. 16 AND THE FINAL MEETING WHICH OCCURRED WITH 17 THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS. I SAY "FINAL" BECAUSE I 18 WAS -- I WENT BACK TO EUROPE, MYSELF, AT THE END OF 19 1971, BEGINNING OF 1972. SO I CAN ONLY SPEAK FROM MY 20 OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. 2 1 Q OKAY. LET'S TAKE IT TO MARCH OF '71, 22 SIR. 2 3 PERHAPS WE SHOULD GO BACK TO THE SCHEDULE 24 HERE . 25 AND AS OF MARCH OF 1971, SIR, HAD THE 26 STEPS OUTLINED IN THE MAY MINUTES THAT WE JUST 27 REVIEWED BEEN ACCOMPLISHED BY MONSANTO? 28 A THE FIRST STEP, THE NATIONAL CASH HARTOLDMON0041983 3735 1 REGISTER PLAN, THE UK HAD COMPLETED THAT TURNOVER AND 2 WAS OPERATING SUCCESSFULLY, AS FAR AS WE UNDERSTOOD. 3 THE UNITED STATES, I THINK THAT THEY WERE 4 DUE TO TAKE, COMMENCE A TRIAL RUN ABOUT THE FIRST OF 5 JANUARY, THE END OF JANUARY 1970. 6 I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE OF THE DATE. 7 SO WE WERE PRETTY WELL ON COURSE WITH NO 8 MAJOR PROBLEMS. 9 Q HOW ABOUT THE HYDRAULICS? 10 A THE HYDRAULICS WAS MORE OF A PROBLEM. 11 WE WERE DEALING WITH VERY DIFFERENT TYPES 12 OF OPERATIONS HERE. 13 YOU CAN HAVE HYDRAULICS, FOR EXAMPLE, IN 14 THE AUTOMOTIVE INDUSTRY, IN THE MICHIGAN AREA WHERE 15 THEY WERE USING A NUMBER OF HYDRAULIC PIECES OF 16 EQUIPMENT WHERE YOU HAVE RAMS FORCING THE FLUID UNDER 17 VERY HIGH PRESSURE INTO RUBBER HOSES CONNECTED TO 18 STEEL END FITTINGS. 19 THEY WERE HAVING A LOT OF SERIOUS LEAKS. 20 ALSO WE HAD VERY SMALL APPLICATIONS OF 2 1 THIS TYPE. 22 WE CONCENTRATED OUR EFFORTS ON GETTING 2 3 RID OF THESE. 24 SOME BIGGER COMPANIES, SOME CHEMICAL 25 COMPANIES, SOME TIRE COMPANIES, SOME SYNTHETIC RUBBER 26 MANUFACTURING COMPANIES AND FIBER MANUFACTURERS WERE 27 USING MUCH MORE SOPHISTICATED SEAL EQUIPMENT ON A 28 CONTINUOUS PROCESS. HARTOLDMON0041984 3736 1 AND WE WERE HAVING DIFFICULTY IN FINDING 2 REPLACEMENT PRODUCTS WHICH WERE ACCEPTABLE DUE TO THE 3 VERY SEVERE FIRE RISK IN SOME OF THESE AREAS. 4 IN A SENSE I THINK WE WERE A LITTLE 5 BEHIND THE PLAN ALTHOUGH NOT TOO MUCH, BUT WE WERE 6 CONCERNED IN THIS AREA. 7 Q WAS THERE AN EXTENSION THAT WAS GIVEN BY 8 THE CMC TO THE HYDRAULIC APPLICATIONS? 9 A YES, I ASKED FOR AN EXTENSION OF THREE 10 MONTHS TO INSURE WE COULD DO THE JOB PROPERLY. 11 THAT WAS GRANTED BUT I WAS TOLD NOT TO 12 COME BACK AGAIN. 13 Q AND WAS THAT REVISED SCHEDULE FOR 14 HYDRAULICS MET, SIR? 15 A YES . 16 Q ALL RIGHT. AND THEN HOW ABOUT IN THE 17 ELECTRICAL INDUSTRY, STEPS FOUR AND FIVE HERE. 18 A WELL, ESSENTIALLY THESE WERE BEING 19 ACCOMPLISHED, OF COURSE. 20 WE WERE SPENDING A LOT OF TIME WITH THESE 2 1 CUSTOMERS TRYING TO INSURE THAT THE LOOP WAS CLOSED 22 AND THAT WE WERE NOT HAVING ANY LEAKS TO THE 23 ENVIRONMENT. 24 Q AND STEP SIX? 25 A STEP ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR -- 2 6 Q THE NON-BIODEGRADABLE. 27 A IN THIS AREA WE TERMINATED A NUMBER OF 28 USES WHERE WE WERE QUITE CERTAIN WE WOULD -- THE HARTOLDMON0041985 3737 1 CUSTOMER WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO CONTROL THE OUTFLOW TO 2 THE ENVIRONMENT. 3 ONE PARTICULAR AREA OF THIS, OF COURSE, 4 AN UNUSUAL APPLICATION, WAS THE TEXAS EASTERN GAS. 5 AND HERE WE WERE CONVINCED THAT THEY WERE 6 OPERATING A SYSTEM WHICH WOULD NOT RESULT IN LEAKS TO 7 THE ENVIRONMENT. 8 Q ALL RIGHT. WHAT ABOUT THE PLASTICIZER 9 BUSINESS, SIR. 10 WHAT HAPPENED TO THAT? 11 A THE PLASTICIZER BUSINESS HAD ESSENTIALLY 12 BEEN DISCONTINUED AND BEEN REPLACED BY CHLORINATED 13 TERPHENYLS AND PHOSPHATE ESTERS AND OTHER 14 PLASTICIZERS. 15 Q AND PLASTICIZERS, YOUR USE WAS CONSIDERED 16 A NON-CONTROLLABLE USE? 17 A' ABSOLUTELY NON-CONTROLLABLE. 18 Q NOW, AFTER MAY, SIR, TAKING YOU BACK TO 19 MAY AND UP TO THE TIME, GENERALLY, THAT YOU LEFT 20 TOWARD THE END OF 1971, WHAT STEPS DID YOU TAKE 2 1 YOURSELF IN IMPLEMENTING THIS ACTION PLAN? 22 A WELL, I TOOK THE STEPS WHICH I WAS 23 EXPECTED TO TAKE AS AN OVERALL MANAGER. 24 I TRIED TO MONITOR, CHECK FREQUENTLY WHAT 25 WAS GOING ON, SPEAK VERY FREQUENTLY TO THE PEOPLE 26 INVOLVED. 27 I WOULD ALSO BE AVAILABLE TO THEM 28 WHENEVER I WAS NEEDED. HARTOLDMON0041986 3738 1 I ALSO CONTINUED WITH VARIOUS CONTACTS 2 WITH GOVERNMENT AGENCIES. 3 IN ADDITION I WAS GIVEN THE JOB BY 4 MR. BOCK, THE PRESIDENT, OF REPLYING TO MAIL WHICH WE 5 RECEIVED FROM THE GENERAL PUBLIC AND FROM VARIOUS 6 PEOPLE CONCERNED ABOUT THIS PROBLEM. 7 MR. BOCK CONSIDERED IT VERY IMPORTANT 8 THAT THIS WAS HANDLED PROPERLY AND IN DEPTH. 9 Q ALL RIGHT. LET'S TALK ABOUT A FEW OF 10 THOSE THINGS. 11 MR. MASON, WHEN YOU SAID YOU WERE IN 12 CONTACT WITH PEOPLE INVOLVED IN IT, DID YOU HAVE 13 MEETINGS WITH MR. PAPAGEORGE? 14 A OH, YES, CERTAINLY, ON A REGULAR BASIS. 15 Q ON A REGULAR BASIS? 16 A OH, YES. 17 Q DID YOU HAVE MEETINGS WITH MR. MINCKLER? 18 A YES . 19 Q AND HE WAS YOUR BOSS? 20 A EVERY DAY. 2 1 Q OKAY. AND DID YOU HAVE ANY CONTACT WITH 22 ANY MEMBERS OF THE CMC DURING THAT TIME FRAME? 23 A YES, I DID. 24 ONE OF THE MEMBERS OF THE CMC AT THAT 25 TIME WAS A MR. ECK. 26 MR. ECK WAS THE EX PRODUCTION MANAGER OF 27 MONSANTO. 28 I WAS INSTRUCTED BY THE CMC TO MAINTAIN HARTOLDMON0041987 3739 1 CONTACT WITH MR. ECK IN VIEW OF HIS VERY WIDE 2 EXPERIENCE, OF COURSE, IN THE MANUFACTURING FIELD. 3 I USED TO MEET WITH HIM REGULARLY, 4 PROBABLY ONCE A WEEK TO DISCUSS THE SITUATION. - 5 FOR EXAMPLE, IN OUR OLD PLANTS WE 6 RECOGNIZED THAT WE HAD SOME SORT OF A PROBLEM WITH 7 THE OUTFLOW OF OUR OWN PLANTS AND WE WOULD SET VERY, 8 VERY TOUGH TARGETS. 9 WE WOULD SET A TARGET OF 10 PARTS PER 10 BILLION OUT INTO THE ENVIRONMENT. 11 10 PARTS PER BILLION IS A VERY, VERY 12 SMALL AMOUNT. 13 NONETHELESS, WE HAD TO GET THE OUTFLOWS 14 IN OUR PLANTS DOWN TO THIS LEVEL. 15 Q YOU INDICATED THAT YOU ALSO MAINTAINED 16 YOUR CONTACTS WITH CERTAIN GOVERNMENTAL AGENCIES, IS 17 THAT CORRECT? 18 A YES, IT IS. 19 Q AND DID YOU HAVE ANY DISCUSSIONS WITH ANY 20 SUCH AGENCIES REGARDING MONSANTO'S PRODUCTION FIGURES 21 OF ITS AROCLOR PRODUCTS? 22 A YES, I DID. 23 I DISCUSSEDTHIS. ONSEVERAL OCCASIONS 24 WITH DR. BURGER WHO I MENTIONED PREVIOUSLY IN THE 25 OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT. 26 AND HE WAS AGREEABLE THAT WE SHOULD TRY 27 TO APPROACH THIS PROBLEM IN THE WAY OF DISCLOSING THE 28 FIGURES TO RESPONSIBLE SCIENTIFIC AGENCIES OR THE HART OLDMON0041988 3740 1 GOVERNMENT TO ALLOW THEM TO CARRY OUT APPROPRIATE 2 WORK. 3 AND IN RETURN THEY WOULD NOT DISCLOSE 4 THESE FIGURES IN THE PRESS. 5 THEY WOULD ONLY DISCLOSE THEM IN 6 SCIENTIFIC REPORTS WHERE IT WAS NECESSARY. 7 NOW, THERE WAS A GREAT DEAL, I THINK, OF 8 CONTROVERSY AT THAT TIME AS TO WHY MONSANTO WOULD NOT 9 DISCLOSE ITS PRODUCTION FIGURES OF AROCLORS. 10 MONSANTO WAS THE ONLY PRODUCER IN THE 11 UNITED STATES OF AROCLOR. BUT THERE WERE PRODUCERS 12 IN GERMANY, ITALY, CZECHOSLOVAKIA, JAPAN. 13 AND THE SIZE OF THE UNITED STATES MARKET 14 FOR AROCLORS WAS VERY, VERY MUCH GREATER THAN THE 15 TOTALS OF THE OTHERS PUT TOGETHER. 16 AND WE WERE CONCERNED IF WE DISCLOSED 17 THOSE FIGURES THAT WE WOULD THEN HAVE FOREIGN 18 PRODUCERS COMING INTO THE MARKET, NOT ONLY TO TAKE 19 OUR BUSINESS BUT TO STOP US CONTROLLING THE 20 ENVIRONMENT. 21 IT WOULD BE VERY EASY FOR THEM TO SELL TO 22 THE PEOPLE WE SAID WE WOULDN'T SELL TO. 23 THAT WAS OUR BIG CONCERN. 24 AS WE YOU KNOW LATER ON WE DID DISCLOSE 25 THOSE FIGURES TO GOVERNMENT TO ENABLE THEM TO 26 CONTINUE THEIR WORK. 27 Q I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW YOU, SIR, IF I 28 COULD, PLEASE, EXHIBIT 572. HART OLDMON0041989 3741 1 THAT IS NOT IN THAT BINDER. I THINK IT'S 2 IN ONE OF THE BLACK BINDERS BEHIND YOU, SIR. 3 A 572? 4 Q RIGHT. 5 A ALL RIGHT. THIS IS IT. 6 Q ALL RIGHT. AND ISTHIS CORRESPONDENCE 7 YOU RECEIVED FROM THE EXECUTIVE OFFICE OF THE 8 PRESIDENT REGARDING THIS ISSUE OF MONSANTO'S 9 PRODUCTION FIGURES, SIR? 10 A YES, IT IS. 11 Q AND IT SHOWS THAT IT HAS YOUR NAME THERE 12 ON THE BOTTOM? 13 MR. TALLON: EXCUSE ME, I WILL OBJECT TO THIS. 14 THERE WAS A FOUNDATION OBJECTION 15 SUSTAINED TO THIS. 16 THE COURT: THERE WAS A FOUNDATION OBJECTION. 17 I'M WAITING TO HEAR FOUNDATION. 18 Q BY MR. PREUSS: WAS THE RECEIPT OF THIS 19 LETTER, SIR, PRECEDED BY CONVERSATIONS YOU HAD WITH 20 DR. BURGER IN CONNECTION WITH THE PRODUCTION FIGURES? 2 1 A. YES, IT WAS. 22 Q AND THIS WAS A DISCUSSION YOUPERSONALLY 23 HAD REGARDING THE ISSUE OF PRODUCTION FIGURES FOR 24 MONSANTO BEING RELEASED TO THE GOVERNMENT ON A 25 CONFIDENTIAL BASIS FOR THE REASONS YOU HAVE STATED? 2 6 A YES, SIR. 27 Q AND WAS THIS THE FORMALRESPONSE OF THE 28 GOVERNMENT ONCE AN AGREEMENT HAD BEEN REACHED BETWEEN HARTOLDMON0041990 3742 1 YOU AND THE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT FOR THE RELEASE 2 OF THESE FIGURES? 3 A YES, IT WAS. 4 MR. PREUSS: SUBMITTED, YOUR HONOR. 5 THE COURT: ANYTHING FURTHER, MR. TALLON? 6 MR. TALLON: NO. 7 THE COURT: GO AHEAD, MR. PREUSS. 8 MR. PREUSS: THANK YOU. 9 Q ALL RIGHT. THEN THIS IS THE LETTER YOU 10 RECEIVED BACK? 11 THE COURT: MR. PREUSS, LET ME ASK YOU TO TAKE 12 IT OFF THE MACHINE FOR A MOMENT. 13 LET ME SEE COUNSEL AT THE SIDEBAR, 14 PLEASE. 15 16 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD 17 AT THE SIDE BAR NOT REPORTED.) 18 Q BY MR. PREUSS: MR. MASON, IN ADDITION TO 19 DISCUSSIONS AND COMMUNICATIONS WITH THE OFFICE OF THE 20 PRESIDENT CONCERNING THE ISSUE OF MONSANTO'S 21 PRODUCTION FIGURES, SIR, DID YOU ALSO HAVE 22 DISCUSSIONS WITH A REPRESENTATIVE IN THE LEGISLATURE 23 OF THE UNITED STATES? 24 A YES, I DID. 25 Q AND WHO WAS THAT, SIR? 26 A THAT WAS CONGRESSMAN RYAN. 27 Q ALL RIGHT. AND DID YOU EXCHANGE A SERIES 28 OF LETTERS WITH CONGRESSMAN RYAN ON THE SUBJECT? HARTOLDMON0041991 3743 1 A YES, I DID. 2 HE WROTE TO THE PRESIDENT, MR. BOCK, AND 3 MR. BOCK ASKED ME TO HANDLE THE LETTER BECAUSE HE 4 WANTED IT HANDLED IN DETAIL AND CONSTRUCTIVELY. 5 Q DID YOU ALSO MEET WITH MR. RYAN ON 6 OCCASION? 7 A I MET WITH HIM ON TWO OCCASIONS WITH 8 MR. PICKARD WHO WAS MONSANTO' S VICE-PRESIDENT OF 9 GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS IN WASHINGTON. 10 Q DID YOU RESPOND TO MR. RYAN' S REQUEST FOR 11 INFORMATION, SIR? 12 A WE DID AT VERY GREAT LENGTH. 13 Q AND IN THAT CORRESPONDENCE DID YOU SEEK 14 TO SET FORTH MONSANTO' S EFFORTS AND POSITIONS ON THE 15 VARIOUS ISSUES THAT CONGRESSMAN RYAN WAS 16 CORRESPONDING TO YOU ABOUT? 17 A YES, I DID. 18 Q AND YOU MENTIONED, SIR, THAT YOU ALSO HAD 19 BEEN GIVEN RESPONSIBILITY TO WRITE TO, SHALL WE SAY, 20 CONCERNED CITIZENS CONCERNING THE PCB ISSUE; IS THAT 2 1 CORRECT? 22 A THAT IS CORRECT. 2 3 Q AND THOSE LETTERS WERE DIRECTED TO 24 MR. BOCK, THE PRESIDENT? 25 A YES, THEY WERE. 26 Q AND HE ASKED YOU TO PERSONALLY ATTEND TO 27 THOSE? 28 THAT IS CORRECT, YES. HARTOLDMON0041992 3744 1 Q AND DID YOU DO SO? 2 A I DID. 3 Q ALL RIGHT. BRIEFLY, SIR, I WOULD JUST 4 LIKE YOU TO GET, IF YOU WOULD, 549 AND 550, IF YOU 5 WILL. 6 A ARE THEY IN THIS SAME BOOK? 7 Q I'M NOT SURE. 8 A NO. SORRY. 9 Q 549 AND 550, SIR. 10 A 549 . 11 Q AND IS THAT A LETTER YOU WROTE TO AN 12 INDIVIDUAL BY THE NAME OF KEVIN HARRIS? 13 A YES, IT LOOKS LIKE IT. 14 YES, IT IS. 15 Q ALL RIGHT. AND WHAT WAS YOUR 16 UNDERSTANDING OF WHO MR. HARRIS WAS AT THE TIME YOU 17 WROTE THIS LETTER? 18 A I ASSUME MR. HARRIS WAS A STUDENT AT 19 CORNELL UNIVERSITY. 20 I DID NOT KNOW IF HE WAS A GRADUATE 2 1 STUDENT OR POST-GRADUATE STUDENT, PROBABLY THE 22 LATTER, I WOULD THINK. 23 Q THIS IS A LETTER.IN WHICH YOU RESPONDED 24 TO HIM CONCERNING HIS INQUIRY? 25 A YES . 26 Q AND PERSONALLY DONE BY YOU, AND THOSE ARE 27 YOUR INITIALS HERE? 28 A YES. HARTOLDMON0041993 3745 1 Q AND THE PURPOSE OF THE LETTER WAS WHAT, 2 SIR, YOUR PURPOSE? 3 A THE PURPOSE WAS TO ANSWER HIS QUERIES, 4 HIS CONCERNS AND TO TRY TO MAKE IT CLEAR THAT 5 MONSANTO WAS TAKING AN ENTIRELY RESPONSIBLE POSITION 6 IN TRYING TO DEAL WITH THIS PROBLEM. 7 Q ALL RIGHT. THEN 550, IS THAT ALSO A 8 LETTER THAT YOU WROTE, SIR? 9 A YES, IT IS. 10 Q AND THAT WAS TO A MRS. TUCKER? 11 A YES . 12 Q IN ST. LOUIS? 13 A YES . 14 Q AND WHAT WAS YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHO 15 SHE WAS, SIR? 16 A I THINK SHE WAS A RESIDENT OF ST. LOUIS 17 WHO HAD A GENERAL CONCERN FOR THE ENVIRONMENT. 18 SHE WROTE TO MR. BOCK EXPRESSING HER 19 CONCERNS. 20 AND HE CONSIDERED IT WORTHY OF A DETAILED 2 1 REPLY WHICH I ENDEAVORED TO MAKE. 22 Q AND THIS WAS A FOUR-PAGE RESPONSE THAT 23 YOU PREPARED YOURSELF? 24 A YEAH. 25 THE COURT: MR. PREUSS, WE HAVE REACHED THE 26 TIME FOR THE MORNING BREAK. 27 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE WILL BE IN 28 RECESS UNTIL 11 O'CLOCK. " ........ HARTOLDMON0041994 3746 1 PLEASE RETURN AT THAT TIME. 2 (RECESS.) 3 THE COURT: AND RESUMING. 4 MR. PREUSS. 5 MR. PREUSS: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. 6 Q MR. MASON, WHEN WEBROKE OFF WE WERE 7 TALKING ABOUT SOME OF THE DISCUSSIONS THAT YOU HAD 8 WITH CONGRESSMAN RYAN AND ALSO WITH THE OFFICE OF THE 9 PRESIDENT. 10 IN THE TIME FRAME, '69 TO '71, WHEN YOU 11 WERE ACTIVELY INVOLVED IN THE MANAGEMENT OF THE PCB 12 ISSUE AT MONSANTO, DID YOU ANTICIPATE ANY REGULATORY 13 ACTIVITY WITH RESPECT TO PCB'S AND. MONSANTO'S 14 INVOLVEMENT WITH THAT PRODUCT? 15 A YES. 16 I THINK IWAS EXPECTING THAT WE WERE 17 GOING TO SEE SOME REGULATORY ACTION IN THE FIELD OF 18 USE OF POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS CLOSE TO THE FOOD 19 INDUSTRY. 20 THERE HAD BEEN ONE OR TWO CASES, AS YOU 2 1 KNOW, WHERE PROBLEMS HAD OCCURRED. I WOULD NOT HAVE 22 BEEN SURPRISED TO SEE LEGISLATION IN THAT AREA. 23 WE WANTED TO ANTICIPATE AND TAKE THAT 24 ACTION OURSELVES. 25 WE DIDN'T NEED TO WAIT FOR LEGISLATION. 2 6 AND WE DID DISCONTINUE, AS YOU KNOW, 27 SALES TO FOOD-RELATED INDUSTRIES. 28 Q AND THAT WAS ON A VOLUNTARY BASIS PRIOR HARTOLDMON0041995 3747 1 TO ANY REGULATORY ACTIVITY? 2 A YES, IT WAS. 3 Q NOW, AS OF MARCH OF '71 WHICH YOU 4 INDICATED WAS A FOLLOW-UP MEETING WITH THE CMC TO 5 REVIEW THE PROGRESS OF ACTIONS IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE 6 SCHEDULE SET FORTH IN MAY OF THE PRECEDING YEAR, HAD 7 THE AMOUNT OF SALES OF AROCLOR PRODUCTS BEEN REDUCED? 8 A CERTAINLY HAD. 9 THEY WERE BELOW 60 PERCENT OF WHAT THEY 10 WERE IN 1969. 11 Q AND HAD CAPITAL EXPENDITURES BEEN MADE IN 12 AN EFFORT TO REFORMULATE A NUMBER OF PRODUCTS? 13 A YES, THEY HAD. 14 I CAN'T RECALL THE ACTUALNUMBER. 15 Q OKAY. AND HAD THE NUMBERS OF CUSTOMERS 16 BEEN REDUCED AS A RESULT OF THIS SIX-POINT PROGRAM? 17 A' YES, SIGNIFICANTLY, OF COURSE. 18 FOR A START ALL THE PLASTICIZERS 19 CUSTOMERS HAD DISAPPEARED FROM THE AROCLOR LIST AND 20 THERE WERE SIGNIFICANT REDUCTIONS IN HYDRAULIC FLUIDS 21 AND FIRE-RESISTANT FLUIDS. 22 Q AND WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE ELECTRICAL 23 INDUSTRY, HAD THE HIGHER-CHLORINATED PRODUCTS BEEN 24 REFORMULATED AND THE OLD PRODUCTS WITH THE HIGHER 25 CHLORINATED COMPOSITIONS BEEN REMOVED OR SALES 26 TERMINATED IN THAT AREA? 27 A YES, THEY HAD, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE 28 ELECTRICAL INDUSTRY. HART OLDMON0041996 3748 1 Q NOW, SOMETIME AFTER THISMEETING INMARCH 2 OF 1971 DID A CERTAIN EVENT OCCUR WHICH REQUIRED 3 FURTHER ACTION ON BEHALF OF MANAGEMENT WITH RESPECT 4 TO CONTROLLING CUSTOMERS AND SALES OF THE PRODUCT? 5 A YES. 6 Q AND WHAT OCCURRED, SIR? 7 A THERE WAS A CASE OF A COMPANYCALLED EAST 8 COAST TERMINALS, I THINK IT WAS, WHO, IT APPEARED, ' 9 HAD MADE AN ANIMAL FEED WHICH BECAME BADLY 10 CONTAMINATED WITH POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS. 11 WE FOUND OUT THAT THIS WAS DUE TO A HEAT 12 TRANSFER SYSTEM THEY WERE USING. 13 THEY HAD A SERIES OF PADDLE BLADES WHICH 14 MIXED THE FEED. 15 THEY WERE HEATING THEM BY CIRCULATING 16 POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS THROUGH THE PADDLE BLADES. 17 NOW, THIS WAS A VERY DIFFICULT PROBLEM 18 BECAUSE WE HAD SOLD THE PRODUCT TO EAST COAST 19 TERMINALS NOT UNDERSTANDING THAT THEY WERE INVOLVED 20 IN ANIMAL FEED. WE THOUGHT IT WAS A NORMAL 2 1 INDUSTRIAL USE. 22 AS IT TURNED OUT IT WAS A BAD DECISION. 23 THIS GREATLY AFFECTED OUR THINKING AND 24 CERTAINLY AFFECTED MANAGEMENT'S THINKING ON THE BASIS 25 THAT WE WERE GETTING TO THE STAGE THAT WE COULD ONLY 26 SAY THAT APART FROM THE ELECTRICAL INDUSTRY AND VERY 27 SOPHISTICATED USERS, WE HAD NO WAY IN WHICH 28 POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS WERE GOING TO BE RESTRICTED HARTOLDMONOQ41997 3749 1 FROM GETTING INTO THE ENVIRONMENT. 2 AS A RESULT OF THIS ISSUE WE PUT TOGETHER 3 A PRESENTATION AND WE WENT TO THE MONSANTO BOARD OF 4 DIRECTORS IN NOVEMBER, 1971. 5 Q WAS IT NOVEMBER OR DECEMBER, SIR? 6 A I THINK THE MEETING WAS IN NOVEMBER. 7 I STAND TO BE CORRECTED, SIR. 8 Q OKAY . 9 A IT WAS EITHER NOVEMBER OR EARLY 10 DECEMBER. 11 Q OKAY. AND YOU SAY A MEETING BEFORE THE 12 BOARD? 13 A THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS, THAT INCLUDED, OF 14 COURSE, THE OUTSIDE DIRECTORS IN ADDITION TO THE 15 INTERNAL DIRECTORS. 16 Q THE BOARD IS DIFFERENT FROM WHAT WE WERE 17 TALKING BEFORE AS THE CMC? 18 A IT IS, YES. 19 Q AND THAT INVOLVED OUTSIDE DIRECTORS AS 20 WELL? 2 1 A YES . 22 Q OKAY. AND DID THE EAST COAST TERMINAL 23 INCIDENT AFFECT YOU, AS WELL., IN TERMS OF MONSANTO' S 24 APPROACH TO THE ISSUE? 25 A YES. IT DID. 2 6 I THINK WE FELT WE WERE GETTING TO THE 27 STAGE THERE WAS NO WAY, APART FROM SEVERAL 28 SOPHISTICATED USERS, THAT WE COULD CONTROL THIS ...................... HARTOLDMON0041998 3750 1 PRODUCT. 2 Q PRIOR TO THIS MEETING OF THE BOARD, SIR, 3 DID YOU CONSIDER WHAT AN IMPACT TO STOP SALES OF PCB 4 PRODUCTS EXCEPT IN THE ELECTRICAL APPLICATIONS WOULD 5 CAUSE ON EXISTING CUSTOMERS? 6 A YES, WE DID. 7 WE HELD DISCUSSIONS WITH THE ELECTRICAL 8 INDUSTRY AND ALSO WITH ONE OR TWO VERY SOPHISTICATED < 9 USERS IN OTHER APPLICATIONS. 10 THEIR REACTIONS, OF COURSE, WERE VERY 11 MUCH AGAINST OUR DISCONTINUING. 12 IT WAS QUITE APPARENT THAT IF WE WERE TO 13 DO IT PRECIPITOUSLY, WE WERE GOING TO BE INVOLVED IN 14 VERY SERIOUS DIFFICULTIES WITH THEM. 15 Q AND WITH THAT INFORMATION DID YOU, 16 NEVERTHELESS, GO AHEAD AND MAKE A PRESENTATION TO THE 17 BOARD? 18 A WE DID, YES. 19 Q AND WHEN YOU SAY "WE DID,"DID YOU, SIR? 20 A I'M SORRY, I DID. 21 I SHOULDN'T USE THE ROYAL "WE." 22 Q AND WHAT DID YOU RECOMMEND TO THE BOARD, 2 3 IF ANYTHING, IN THAT DECEMBER OF '71 MEETING? 24 A ESSENTIALLY WE RECOMMENDEDTO THE BOARD 25 THAT WE SHOULD SELL ONLY TO TRANSFORMER AND CAPACITOR 26 CUSTOMERS AND ONLY ON THE BASIS THAT THEY SUPPLIED US 27 WITH DOCUMENTATION WHICH WOULD GUARANTEE, SHOULD 28 THERE BE ANY SERIOUS PROBLEM, THAT MONSANTO WOULD BE % HARTOLDMON0041999 3751 1 HELD HARMLESS. 2 WE ALSO RECOMMENDED THE COMPLETE PHASEOUT 3 OF THE POLYCHLORINATED TERPHENYLS THAT YOU HAVE HEARD 4 SOMETHING ABOUT, THESE PRODUCTS. 5 THEY DID HAVE A SMALL CONTAMINATORY 6 PROBLEM WITH POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS. . 7 ESPECIALLY WE WERE SAYING TO THE BOARD 8 THAT IN A LITTLE TIME WE HAVE TO GO OUT OF THIS 9 BUSINESS. WE HAVE TO GIVE THE ELECTRICAL INDUSTRY 10 AND OTHER SIGNIFICANT USERS, FOR EXAMPLE, TEXAS 11 EASTERN GAS, I THINK, WAS A POSSIBILITY, WE HAVE TO 12 SAY TO THEM, "YOU HAVE TO GET OUT BUT WE ARE GOING TO 13 GIVE YOU TIME. . 14 "AND WHILE YOU ARE GETTING OUT OF THE 15 BUSINESS WE HAVE TO HAVE SOME PROTECTION." 16 BUT REALLY WE WERE SAYING, "THAT'S IT." 17 Q AND HOW DID THE BOARD RESPOND TO YOUR 18 RECOMMENDATION AND THOSE OF YOUR FELLOW MANAGERS THAT 19 MADE PRESENTATIONS? 20 A THE BOARD RESPONDED VERY POSITIVELY AND 2 1 AGREED THOROUGHLY WITH THE RECOMMENDATION. 22 Q AND HOW LONG DID YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR JOB 2 3 AS ASSISTANT GENERAL MANAGER OF ORGANICS AFTER THAT 24 BOARD PRESENTATION, SIR? 25 A I WAS JUST ABOUT AT THE END OF MY 26 TENURE. 27 I LEFT FOR BELGIUM, RETURNED TO BELGIUM, 28 I THINK, IN THE FIRST WEEK OF JANUARY OF 1972. HARTOLDMON0042000 3752 1 Q AND WHAT PERCENTAGE OF MONSANTO'S OVERALL 2 BUSINESS, SIR, WAS REPRESENTED BY THE AROCLOR 3 BUSINESS AS OF THE TIME? 4 A A SMALL PERCENTAGE, ONE, TWO, PERCENT, 5 SOMETHING OF THAT ORDER. 6 Q ALL RIGHT. WHAT WAS YOUR -- AFTER 7 LEAVING ST. LOUIS I TAKE IT YOU HAD ANOTHER 8 ASSIGNMENT WITH MONSANTO? 9 A YES, I HAD. 10 Q AND WHAT WAS THAT, SIR? 11 A MY ASSIGNMENT WAS AS DIRECTOR OF MONSANTO 12 INDUSTRIAL CHEMICAL COMPANY IN EUROPE. 13 Q AND WHERE WERE YOU LOCATED? 14 A I WAS LOCATED IN BRUSSELS. 15 Q OKAY. AND HOW LONG DID YOU HOLD THAT 16 JOB? 17 A I HELD THAT JOB FOR -- NEARLY SIX YEARS, 18 FIVE AND A HALF YEARS. 19 Q OKAY. AND AFTER THAT DID YOU RECEIVE 20 ANOTHER ASSIGNMENT FROM MONSANTO? 21 A YES . 22 I WAS ASSIGNED TO BE PRESIDENT OF 23 MONSANTO COMPANY IN SPAIN, A.COMPANY CALLED AISCANDEL 24 WHICH WAS IN RATHER SERIOUS FINANCIAL DIFFICULTIES. 25 Q AND YOUR JOB WAS TO SEE IF YOU COULD FIX 26 THAT? 27 A YES . 28 Q HOW LONG DID YOU STAY IN THAT JOB? HARTOLDMON0042001 3753 1 A THREE AND A HALF YEARS. AND THE COMPANY 2 IS STILL IN EXISTENCE TODAY. 3 Q DID YOU HAVE A FURTHER ASSIGNMENT WITH 4 MONSANTO AFTER THAT? 5 A YES. I RETURNED TO THE UNITED KINGDOM 6 WHERE I BECAME CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS OF 7 MONSANTO IN THE UNITED KINGDOM UNTIL I RETIRED IN 8 1984 . 9 Q NOW, WHILE YOU WERE AT MONSANTO, SIR, 10 WERE YOU AWARE OF ANY OTHER SITUATION THAT A COMPANY 11 WAS FACING INVOLVING AN ENVIRONMENTAL SITUATION SUCH 12 AS PCB'S THAT HAD PRECEDED THE SITUATION THAT 13 MONSANTO WAS FACED WITH? 14 A NO, SIR, I DON'T THINK I WAS. 15 THE ONLY PREVIOUS SITUATION HAD BEEN THE 16 DDT SITUATION. 17 AND I DON'T THINK THAT THAT, IN ANY WAY, 18 WAS MANAGED OR ATTEMPTED TO BE MANAGED. 19 IT WAS SHUT DOWN BY A REGULATORY ACTION 2 0 AND THAT WAS THE END OF IT. 2 1 Q NOW, MONSANTO WASN'TINVOLVED IN DDT, WAS 22 IT? 23 A NO. 24 Q WERE THERE ANY PRECEDENTS, THEN, 25 AVAILABLE TO MONSANTO AS TO THE TYPE OF ACTION OR 2 6 APPROPRIATE RESPONSE IT SHOULD TAKE TO THE PCB 27 SITUATION? 28 A TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, NO. I THINK HARTOLDMON0042002 3754 1 WE HAD TO LEARN AS WE WENT ALONG. 2 I THINK THAT APPLIES. WE HAVE HAD A 3 LITTLE CRITICISM THAT WE WERE SLOW AT THE BEGINNING. 4 WE HAD TO LEARN. WE HAD TO FIND OUR WAY. 5 PERSONALLY, LOOKING BACK, I THINK 6 MONSANTO DID AN EXCELLENT JOB IN HANDLING THIS 7 PROBLEM. 8 CERTAINLY WE DID SOME THINGS WRONG, OF 9 COURSE WE DID. 10 WHEN YOU ARE LEARNING IT, YOU DO THINGS 11 WRONG. 12 BUT I HAVE NO HESITATION IN SAYING THAT 13 MONSANTO BEHAVED LIKE A RESPONSIBLE COMPANY BOTH TO 14 ITS SHAREHOLDERS, EMPLOYEES AND TO THE GENERAL 15 PUBLIC. 16 MR. PREUSS THANK YOU, SIR. NO FURTHER 17 QUESTIONS. 18 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. TALLON. 19 MR. TALLON THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. 20 2 1 CROSS EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. TALLON: 23 Q MR. MASON? 24 A HELLO. 25 Q LET'S SEE. 26 YOU JOINED MONSANTO IN 1949 AND STARTED 27 WORKING AT RUABON, CORRECT? 28 A CORRECT. HART OLDMON0042003 3755 1 Q AND YOU RETIRED IN 1984? 2 A YEAH . 3 Q AS CHAIRMAN OF MONSANTO UK. 4 WHEN YOU WERE CHAIRMAN OF MONSANTO UK DID 5 THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS OF THAT ENTITY KEEP MINUTES? 6 A YES, CERTAINLY. 7 Q IT'S PRETTY COMMON PRACTICE FOR A BOARD 8 OF DIRECTORS, RIGHT? 9 A SURELY. 10 Q OKAY. NOW, YOU MOVED TO THE UNITED 11 STATES -- YOU MOVED TO THE UNITED STATES WITH YOUR 12. FAMILY IN JUNE, 1969, RIGHT? 13 A YES . 14 Q BUT YOU ACTUALLY HAD MADE A COUPLE OF 15 TRIPS BACK AND FORTH TO THE UNITED STATES FROM THE UK 16 IN THE FIRST PART OF 1969? 17 A' YES, FROM BELGIUM. 18 Q FROM BELGIUM. 19 AND WHEN YOU GOT HERE YOU WERE MADE 20 RESPONSIBLE FOR OVERALL MANAGEMENT OF THE FUNCTIONAL 21 FLUIDS GROUP, INCLUDING RESEARCH AND MARKETING? 22 A YES . 2 3 Q AND BY THAT TIME THE PCB ENVIRONMENTAL 24 ISSUE WAS PRETTY MUCH A SUBJECT OF DISCUSSION WITHIN 25 MONSANTO, RIGHT? 26 A CORRECT. 27 Q AND WHEN YOU GOT THERE MR. MINCKLER 28 BRIEFED YOU ON THE SITUATION, RIGHT? ^ ~ ................................. ........ HARTOLDMON0042004 3756 1 A YES, SIR. 2 Q AND YOU ALSO LOOKED AT SOME DOCUMENTS AND 3 IN OTHER WAYS GOT YOURSELF UP THE LEARNING CURVE? 4 A YES . 5 Q OKAY. NOW, YOU LEFT THE U.S. AT THE 6 START OF 1972? 7 A YES . 8 Q OKAY. BUT BEFORE YOU ARRIVED IN THE 9 UNITED STATES, BEFORE YOU TOOK ON YOUR JOB WITH THE 10 FUNCTIONAL FLUIDS GROUP, YOU HAD ACTUALLY ALREADY 11 HEARD ABOUT WHAT WIDMARK AND JENSEN HAD DONE IN 12 SWEDEN, RIGHT? 13 A YES . 14 Q AND YOU HEARD ABOUT THAT IN LATE '67 OR 15 '68? 16 A YES . 17 Q AND THAT INITIAL NEWS SURPRISED YOU 18 BECAUSE YOU UNDERSTOOD THAT MONSANTO WAS SELLING ITS 19 PRODUCTS FOR USE IN CLOSED SYSTEMS AND YOU COULDN'T 20 FIGURE OUT HOW PCB'S WERE SHOWING UP IN BIRD FEATHERS 21 IN NORTHERN SWEDEN? 22 A THAT IS PARTLYTRUE. 23 I WAS AWARE THAT MONSANTO WAS SELLING 24 AROCLORS TO NOT ONLY ENTIRELY CLOSED SYSTEMS, FOR 25 EXAMPLE PLASTICIZERS, ALTHOUGH WE DIDN'T HAVE MUCH 26 BUSINESS IN EUROPE IN THAT DIRECTION. BUT I WAS 27 AWARE THEY DID EXIST. 28 Q I THINK YOU SAID WHEN YOU STARTED ON YOUR HARTOLDMON0042005 3757 1 NEW JOB IN '69 ONE OF THE THINGS YOU DID WAS TO GO 2 AROUND WITH MR. -- DR. KELLY, RIGHT? 3 A YES . 4 Q DID DR. KELLY TELL YOU WHEN HE TOOK YOU 5 ON YOUR JOB THAT HE HAD BECOME PERSONALLY CONVINCED 6 OF THE VALIDITY OF WIDMARK AND JENSEN'S WORK WITHIN A 7 YEAR OF FIRST HEARING IT, THAT IS TO SAY, WITHIN A 8 YEAR OF NOVEMBER OF 766? 9 A ARE YOU REFERRING TO DR. KELLY, THE 10 MEDICAL DIRECTOR? 11 Q I AM. 12 A BECAUSE DR. KELLER OF COURSE IS -13 Q WE WILL GET TO DR. KELLER. 14 A IT'S DR. KELLY YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT? 15 Q YES . 16 A I DON'T THINK HE TOLD ME THAT, NO, NOT 17 SPECIFICALLY. 18 BUT I COULD BE WRONG. 19 THAT IS 22, 23 YEARS AGO. I'M SORRY. 20 Q CERTAINLY. 2 1 AND DO YOU RECALL TALKING WITH DR. KELLER 22 IN THAT SAME TIME PERIOD, 1969, AND HIM TELLING YOU 23 THAT HE HAD BECOME PERSONALLY CONVINCED OF THE 24 VALIDITY OF WIDMARK AND JENSEN, WITHIN A YEAR OF 25 HEARING ABOUT IT? 26 A YES, I THINK SO, YES. 27 Q SO YOU COME TO THE UNITED STATES. YOU 28 MOVE TO ST. LOUIS. AND AT THAT POINT LOTS OF PEOPLE HARTOLDMON0042006 3758 1 WITHIN MONSANTO ARE LOOKING AT THE PCB ISSUE, 2 CORRECT? 3 A YES . 4 Q AMONG OTHER THINGS, THERE IS THE AD HOC 5 COMMITTEE CHAIRED BY ELMER WHEELER, RIGHT? 6 A YES . 7 Q AND THAT AD HOC COMMITTEE PROCESS IS 8 HEADED STRAIGHT FOR A MEETING OF THE CORPORATE 9 MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE IN NOVEMBER, 1969? 10 A YES. 11 Q AT WHICHYOU WERE PRESENT? 12 A YES . 13 Q OKAY. THAT WAS THE CMC MEETING WHERE THE 14 POSITION LATER FILLED BY MR. PAPAGEORGE WAS CREATED? 15 A CORRECT. 16 Q OKAY. AND LET'S LOOK AT THE MINUTES OF 17 THAT MEETING AGAIN, EXHIBIT 111. 18 ARE YOU WITH ME? 19 A YES . 20 Q COULD YOU TURN TO THE SECOND PAGE WHERE 2 1 THE MINUTES INDICATE "ENVIRONMENTAL ASPECTS, E.P. 22 WHEELER." 2 3 A YES . 24 Q THAT IS ELMERWHEELER WHO WAS THE CHAIR 2 5 OF THE PCB AD HOC COMMITTEE? 26 A CORRECT. 27 Q NOW, YOUREMEMBER ATTHAT MEETING THAT 28 ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MR. WHEELER TOLD THE CMC WAS HARTOLDMON0042007 3759 1 THAT THE AROCLOR PRODUCTS ARE NOT TOXIC FROM THE 2 ACUTE STANDPOINT TO MAN OR FISH BUT THERE IS SOME 3 EVIDENCE OF ECOLOGICAL BUILDUP IN CERTAIN WATER 4 DEPOSITS IN FISH AND ALSO IN BIRD LIFE, CORRECT? 5 A CORRECT. 6 Q AND THAT WAS REALLY THE PROBLEM, WASN'T 7 IT? 8 A YES . 9 Q AND THE REASON IT WAS REALLY THE PROBLEM 10 WAS YOU DIDN'T REALLY KNOW WHAT THE LONG-TERM EFFECTS 11 OF HAVING PCB'S IN THE FOOD CHAIN WERE? 12 A NO, WE DIDN'T. 13 Q AND THAT WAS A CONCERN? 14 A YES. 15 Q IN FACT, YOU STARTED HEARING THINGS ABOUT 16 BIOACCUMULATION, RIGHT? 17 A YES . 18 Q AND BIOMAGNIFICATION? 19 A YES . 20 Q AND THE CONCERN WAS WHAT HAPPENS IF PCB'S 21 ARE PICKED UP, BIOMAGNIFIED OR BIOACCUMULATED IN FISH 22 THAT PEOPLE EAT, RIGHT? 2 3 A YES. 24 Q AND YOU WERE CONCERNED THAT IF PEOPLE ATE 25 ENOUGH FISH OR ENOUGH FOWL WITH PCB'S IN IT, THAT 26 COULD HAVE ENZYMATIC CHANGES IN THE LIVER, RIGHT? 27 A IT WAS A CONCERN, I BELIEVE, YES. 28 Q AND WHY WOULD YOU BECONCERNED ABOUT HART OLDMON0042008 3760 1 ENZYMATIC CHANGES IN THE LIVER? 2 A I'M SORRY. 3 YOU ARE IN A FIELD I DON'T UNDERSTAND 4 PROPERLY. 5 Q OKAY. 6 A BUT THERE WAS TALK OF THIS, I KNOW. 7 Q PART OF THE TALK THAT YOU HEARD WAS THAT 8 THE REASON MONSANTO OUGHT TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT 9 ENZYMATIC CHANGES IN THE LIVER IS THAT ENZYMATIC 10 CHANGES IN LIVER FUNCTION COULD LEAD TO CANCER, 11 RIGHT? 12. A I DON'T KNOWMEDICALLY. 13 BUT YOU ARE PROBABLY RIGHT. 14 Q OKAY. 15 A I'M SORRY. 16 I LOST TRACK OF WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO 17 GET OUT OF ME HERE. 18 Q LET'S MOVE ON AND TAKE A LOOK AT THIS 19 NEXT PARAGRAPH. 20 MAYBE WE CAN FOCUS TOGETHER. 21 A RIGHT. 22 Q NOW, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MR. WHEELER 23 TOLD THE CMC IN NOVEMBER OF 1969 WERE THAT AROCLORS 24 1248 AND LOWER IN NUMBER ARE BELIEVED TO BE 25 BIODEGRADABLE. BUT THIS HAS NOT BEEN CONCLUSIVELY 2 6 ESTABLISHED AS YET, CORRECT? 27 A YES . 28 Q SO THERE WAS MIXED EVIDENCE? HARTOLDMON0042009 3761 1 A YES . 2 Q AND WOULD YOU FLIPTHE PAGE, PLEASE, 3 MR. MASON. 4 A YES . 5 Q OKAY. THESE WERETHE POINTS THAT WERE 6 RECOMMENDED TO THE CMC BY THE AD HOC COMMITTEE, 7 RIGHT? 8 A YES, CORRECT. 9 Q AND ONE OF THEM, POINT SIX, WAS TO 10 INTRODUCE ON THE MARKET REPLACEMENT PRODUCTS FOR 1254 11 AND 1260, RIGHT? 12 A YES. 13 Q NOW, THE REASON THATRECOMMENDATION WAS 14 MADE, YOU UNDERSTOOD, WAS BECAUSE WHAT WAS SHOWING UP 15 IN THE ENVIRONMENT MOST REGULARLY WERE THE 5/6 16 CHLORINES AND HIGHER, RIGHT? 17 A THATIS CORRECT. 18 Q AND 1254 AND 1260 WERE THE PRODUCTS THAT 19 HAD THE MOST 5/6 CHLORINES AND HIGHER? 20 A YES . 2 1 Q OKAY. SOONE WAY TO DEAL WITH THE 22 PROBLEM WAS TO TAKE 1254 AND 1260 OFF THE MARKET, 2 3 OKAY? 24 A YES . 25 Q BUT YOUALSO KNEW THATAROCLOR 1242 26 CONTAINED 10 PERCENT 5/6 CHLORINES AND HIGHER? 27 A YES. 28 I DOUBT IF I PERSONALLY KNEW THAT AT THAT HARTOLDMON0042010 3762 1 POINT IN TIME. 2 Q OKAY. THAT IS WHY YOU UNDERSTOOD POINT 3 10 OF THE AD HOC COMMITTEE PLAN WAS TO DETERMINE, THE 4 FEASIBILITY AND COST OF ELIMINATING 5/6 CHLORINES IN 5 AROCLORS 1242 AND 1248, RIGHT? 6 A RIGHT. 7 Q BECAUSE 1242 CONTAINED THE SAME 8 PERSISTENT CHLORINES AS 1254 AND 1260? 9 A IT CONTAINED A MUCH SMALLER PERCENTAGE OF 10 THEM, YES. 11 Q SURE. BUT IT CONTAINED THE SAME 12 CHLORINES? 13 A IT DOES CONTAIN SOME, YEAH. 14 AND THIS BECAME MORE AND MORE EVIDENT AS 15 WE WENT ALONG. 16 Q WELL, IT WAS ALWAYS EVIDENT TO YOU THAT 17 1242 CONTAINED THE CHLORINATED BLEND? 18 A SOME, YES. 19 Q THAT HAD TO BE THE CASE,RIGHT? 20 A YES . 21 NONE OF THE AROCLORS WAS A SINGLE 22 CHEMICAL ENTITY IN ITSELF. IT WAS A BLEND. 23 Q BECAUSE OF THE MANUFACTURING PROCESS IT 24 WAS INEVITABLE FROM THE VERY FIRST TIME THAT MONSANTO 25 MADE 1242 THAT THERE WOULD BE HIGHER CHLORINES IN IT? 26 A CORRECT. 27 Q NOW, ARE YOU STILL WITH ME ON THE BOTTOM 28 OF THAT SAME PAGE UNDER CONCLUSIONS? HARTO L D M O N0042011 3763 1 A YES . 2 Q OKAY. THOSE ARE THEDIRECTIONSOF THE 3 CORPORATE MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE, AS YOU UNDERSTOOD IT? 4 A YES. 5 Q AND ONE OF THE CONCLUSIONS WAS, "WE 6 SHOULD PLAN TO DISCONTINUE THE MANUFACTURE OF 7 AROCLORS 1254 AND 1260. 8 "THE DIVISION IS INSTRUCTED TO DEVELOP A 9 PROGRAM TO DISCONTINUE THESE PRODUCTS AND REPORT THIS 10 TO THE COMMITTEE." 11 A YES. 12 Q OKAY. AND"THESTATUS OFAROCLOR 1242 13 SHOULD CONTINUE TO BE TESTED TO DETERMINE WHETHER IT 14 CONTRIBUTES TO THIS PROBLEM," RIGHT? 15 A YES . 16 Q SO THAT WAS, AS YOU LEFT THE NOVEMBER 17 MEETING, THOSE WERE THE INSTRUCTIONS TO YOU FROM THE 18 CORPORATE MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE AND TO THE PEOPLE THAT 19 WORKED FOR YOU? 20 A CORRECT. 2 1 Q OKAY. NOW, THE CMC DIRECTED THAT 1242 22 SHOULD BE TESTED BECAUSE THERE WAS A QUESTION IN 23 EVERYONE'S MIND AS TO THE EXTENT TO WHICH IT WAS 24 CONTRIBUTING TO THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROBLEM, RIGHT? 25 A CORRECT. 26 Q IT WAS IMPORTANT TO INVESTIGATE TO SEE IF 27 THE 5/6 CHLORINES IN THE ENVIRONMENT WERE COMING, IN 28 FACT, FROM 1242? HARTO L D M O N0042012 3764 1 A CORRECT. 2 Q OKAY. NOW, MR. PAPAGEORGE COMES ON BOARD 3 THE BEGINNING OF 770 OR THEREABOUTS? 4 A BEFORE THAT, YES. 5 Q OKAY. AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU 6 TELL MR. PAPAGEORGE TO DO OR THAT SOMEONE WORKING FOR 7 YOU TELLS MR. PAPAGEORGE TO DO IS, PUT TOGETHER OUR 8 PLAN TO RESPOND TO WHAT THE CMC TOLD THE BUSINESS 9 DIVISION TO DO? 10 A CORRECT. 11 Q NOW, THIS WAS A HARD THING FOR YOU AND 12 THE PEOPLE WHO WORKED FOR YOU, RIGHT? 13 A A HARD THING TO EXPLAIN. 14 Q OKAY. WELL, IF YOU WEREGOING TO BE PUT 15 OUT OF THE BUSINESS OF SELLING 1254 AND 1260 AND 16 MAYBE 1242, THAT WAS GOING TO MEAN THAT A LOT OF YOUR 17 BUSINESS WOULD DISAPPEAR, RIGHT? 18 A IT COULD, YES. 19 Q WELL, IF YOU WERE GOING TO STOPSELLING 20 1254 AND 1260, CERTAINLY THE SALES THAT YOUR GROUP 2 1 ENJOYED. FROM THOSE PRODUCTS WOULD GO AWAY UNLESS 22 REPLACED, OKAY? 23 A YES . 24 Q AND THAT WAS NOTPARTICULARLY WELCOME - 25 A WELCOME JOB FOR ANYBODY WORKING FOR YOU BECAUSE 26 NOBODY WANTED TO BE IN CHARGE OF A DIVISION THAT WAS 27 GOING TO BE STRIPPED OFMAJOR PRODUCTS? 28 A NO. HARTOLDMON0042013 3765 1 Q AND, IN FACT, YOU HAD SOME CONCERN THAT 2 IF YOU TOOK THE ACTION REQUESTED BY THE CMC, PEOPLE 3 WOULD LOSE THEIR JOBS AND THE ORGANIC DIVISION WAS 4 GOING TO LOSE A LOT OF PRODUCT? 5 A I DON'T THINK THAT STATEMENT IS ENTIRELY 6 CORRECT. 7 NOBODY WOULD HAVE LOST THEIR JOBS IF THAT 8 HAD OCCURRED. CERTAINLY THE DIVISION WOULD HAVE LOST 9 SOME PROFIT. LET'S PUT IT IN THE CORRECT 10 PERSPECTIVE, PLEASE. 11 Q SO YOU WERE CONCERNED IF YOU FOLLOWED THE 12. INSTRUCTIONS OF THE CMC TO THE LETTER THE DIVISION 13 OVER WHICH YOU WERE PRESIDING AS ASSISTANT GENERAL 14 MANAGER WOULD LOSE PRODUCTS? 15 A IT WAS A CONCERN, OF COURSE, BUT NOT THE 16 ONLY CONCERN. 17 Q' OKAY. MR. PAPAGEORGE PUT TOGETHER WHAT 18 HE THOUGHT OUGHT TO BE THE DIVISION'S, THE ORGANIC 19 DIVISION'S RESPONSE TO THE CMC DIRECTIVES, CORRECT? 20 A YES . 21 Q AND HE CIRCULATED THAT AROUND THE 22 BUSINESS PEOPLE, INCLUDING YOU, FOR COMMENTS BEFORE 23 THE NEXT REGULARLY SCHEDULED CMC MEETING AT WHICH 24 THIS ISSUE WAS TO BE TAKEN UP? 25 A THAT IS CORRECT. 26 Q AND I THINK YOU ARE PROBABLY STILL IN THE 27 SAME BOOK THERE, MR. MASON. 28 BUT IF YOU WOULD LOOK AT TRANSWESTERN HART6 L D M 6 N0042014 3766 1 2 A 135? 3 Q 135. 4 A YES . 5 Q THAT IS MR. PAPAGEORGE'S APRIL 7, 1970 6 MEMO TO MR. BERGEN, YOU, MINCKLER, SPRINGGATE AND 7 OTHERS? 8 A CORRECT. 9 Q AND WHAT HE IS ENCLOSING WITH HIS COVER 10 MEMO IS HIS PLAN IN DRAFT FOR MANAGING THE PCB 11 PROBLEM? 12 A THAT IS CORRECT. 13 Q OKAY. AND IF YOU WOULD TURN TO THE PLAN 14 ITSELF, MR. MASON, AND PARTICULARLY TO THE SECTION 15 ENTITLED "OBJECTIVES," YOU AGREED WITH MR. PAPAGEORGE 16 THAT THE OVERALL OBJECTIVE OF THE PLAN WAS TO MANAGE 17 THE PCB POLLUTION PROBLEM, TO PREVENT IT FROM 18 ADVERSELY AFFECTING THE ESTABLISHED RETURN ON 19 INVESTMENT OBJECTIVES OF THE FUNCTIONAL FLUIDS AND 20 PLASTICIZER GROUPS WHILE MAINTAINING THE CORPORATE 21 IMAGE OF MONSANTO AS A RESPONSIBLE AND RESPECTED 22 MEMBER OF INDUSTRY WORLDWIDE, RIGHT? 2 3 A YES, THAT IS WHAT IT SAYS THERE. 24 Q AND YOU WOULD AGREE THAT THAT WAS THE 25 OVERALL OBJECTIVE, RIGHT? 2 6 A IT WAS A LARGE PART OF THE OBJECTIVE, 27 YES . 28 Q NOW, THE WAY THAT THAT OBJECTIVE WOULD BE HARTOLDMON0042015 3767 1 CARRIED OUT, AS YOU UNDERSTOOD IT, WAS THAT IT WOULD 2 BE ACCOMPLISHED BY SELLING TO CUSTOMERS WHO USED YOUR 3 PRODUCT IN ENCLOSED SYSTEMS AND REPLACING CERTAIN 4 PRODUCTS WITH NEW PRODUCTS WHERE EMISSIONS TO THE 5 ENVIRONMENT COULD NOT BE CONTROLLED? 6 A YES, THAT IS CORRECT. 7 Q OKAY. NOW, USES WHERE YOU HAD BECOME 8 CONVINCED THAT CUSTOMERS WERE NOT IN A GOOD POSITION 9 TO CONTROL EMISSIONS TO THE ENVIRONMENT WERE 10 PLASTICIZERS AND HYDRAULIC-TYPE APPLICATIONS? 11 A YES, IN GENERAL, THAT'S TRUE. 12 Q AND PLASTICIZERS, THAT WAS A PRETTY EASY 13 CALL BECAUSE PLASTICIZERS WERE IN PAINTS, FOR 14 EXAMPLE. 15 THAT IS CERTAINLY VERY OPEN TO THE 16 ENVIRONMENT IF YOU HAVE A YELLOW LINE DOWN THE CENTER 17 OF THE HIGHWAY WHICH IS PAINTED WITH PCB PAINT, 18 CORRECT? 19 A YES, CORRECT. 20 Q OKAY. AND WITH REGARD TO HYDRAULIC-TYPE 2 1 APPLICATIONS, THE EVIDENCE YOU WERE LOOKING AT SHOWED 2 2 YOU THAT CUSTOMERS USING HYDRAULIC FLUIDS WERE HAVING 2 3 LEAKS AND THAT THOSE LEAKS WERE PROBABLY GETTING INTO 24 THE ENVIRONMENT? 25 A YES, NOT ALL CUSTOMERS BUT SOME. 26 Q SOME. 27 IN FACT, BY THE EARLY PART OF 1970 YOU 28 WERE CONCERNED THAT THE FACT THAT A CUSTOMER HAD HARTOLDMON0042016 3768 1 ORDERED REPLACEMENT FLUIDS OR ADDITIONAL FLUIDS FROM 2 MONSANTO MEANT THAT A SPILL TO THE ENVIRONMENT COULD 3 HAVE OCCURRED? 4 A IT COULD HAVE, YES. 5 Q SO IF A CUSTOMER WAS BUYING PRODUCT FROM 6 MONSANTO AND KEPT ORDERING IT ON A REGULAR BASIS, YOU 7 UNDERSTOOD THAT IT WAS AT LEAST A POSSIBILITY THAT 8 THE REASON THEY WERE ORDERING MORE WAS SOME OF THE 9 STUFF THEY ALREADY HAD WAS BEING LOST TO THE 10 ENVIRONMENT? 11 A THAT WAS A POSSIBILITY, YES, I WOULD 12 AGREE WITH YOU. 13 Q NOW, YOU HAVE USED THE TERM AND I HAVE 14 USED THE TERM, TOO, "CLOSED SYSTEM," RIGHT? 15 YOU SAID THAT A TRANSFORMER WAS THE SORT 16 OF BEST EXAMPLE OF A CLOSED SYSTEM, RIGHT? 17 A IT'S A GOOD EXAMPLE, YES. 18 Q A GOOD EXAMPLE. 19 THE REASON IT'S SUCH A GOOD EXAMPLE IS 20 THAT IN A TRANSFORMER WHAT YOU DO IS, YOU TAKE A 21 METAL CAN, FILL IT WITH PCB FLUIDS AND THEN SEAL IT 22 IN SOME WAY LIKE WELDING IT SHUT? 23 A YES. 24 Q VERY DIFFICULT FOR THE PCB'S TO GET OUT. 25 THERE IS NO VALVES OR THAT SORT OF THING? 26 A CORRECT. 27 Q OKAY. NOW, YOU REVIEWED PAPAGEORGE'S 28 DRAFT AND YOU SENT HIM COMMENTS ON THAT DRAFT? HARTOLDMON0042017 3769 1 A I DID. 2 Q AND IF YOU WOULDLOOKAT TRANSWESTERN 3 NUMBER 137, I THINK YOU WILL FIND THAT THAT IS YOUR 4 RESPONSE TO MR. PAPAGEORGE'S DRAFT OF APRIL 7, 1970. 5 A IT IS. 6 Q OKAY. 7 A IT IS. 8 Q AND YOU WERE -- YOU HAD A LOT OF THINGS 9 ON YOUR PLATE. 10 SO BASICALLY WHAT YOU DID WAS READ 11 THROUGH MR. PAPAGEORGE'S DOCUMENT AND SEND HIM BACK A 12 MEMO SAYING, "HERE IS THINGS I WOULD LIKE YOU TO 13 CHANGE"? . 14 A ESSENTIALLY, YES. 15 Q OKAY. AND, LET'S SEE. 16 THE FIRST PARAGRAPH, YOU SAY TO HIM, "IN 17 MY OPINION WE NEED TO TAKE A MUCH MORE AGGRESSIVE 18 ATTITUDE TO THIS SUBJECT. 19 "OTHERWISE WE WILL FIND OURSELVES 20 DIRECTED TO A COURSE OF ACTION WHICH MAY NOT BE IN 2 1 THE DIVISION'S BEST INTEREST," OKAY? 22 A CORRECT. 23 Q AND WHEN YOU SAID THAT, WHEN YOU WROTE 2 4 "WE NEED TO TAKE A MUCH MORE AGGRESSIVE ATTITUDE," 25 YOU MEANT YOU WANTED TO AVOID LOSING THE ENTIRE PCB 26 BUSINESS OR A PART OF IT? 27 A THAT IS NOT ENTIRELY WHAT I MEANT. 28 THAT WAS CERTAINLY A PART IN MY MIND, BUT HART OLDMON0042018 3770 1 ALSO I FELT THAT THE PLAN HAD TO HAVE MUCH MORE 2 PUNCH. 3 I PREFERRED A SHORTER PLAN WITH MUCH MORE 4 PUNCH IN IT. 5 THAT IS WHAT I WANTED TO GET THROUGH. 6 Q IT IS TRUE, MR. MASON, THAT ONE OF THE 7 THINGS YOU MEANT WAS YOU WANTED TO AVOID PUTTING THE 8 PLAN BEFORE THE CMC THAT WOULD RESULT IN YOUR LOSING 9 THE ENTIRE PCB BUSINESS OR A MAJOR PART OF IT? 10 A I THINK THAT OBVIOUSLY WAS IN MY MIND. 11 BUT IT ALSO COULD HAVE BEEN A BAD 12 DECISION TO TAKE AT THAT POINT IN TIME. 13 THAT WAS IN MY MIND, TOO. 14 Q OKAY. NOW, YOU ASKED MR. PAPAGEORGE TO 15 LIST SOME MAJOR DEVELOPMENTS, CORRECT? 16 A YES. 17 Q' AND AMONG THOSE YOU IDENTIFIED WAS THE 18 IDENTIFICATION OF PCB'S IN COW'S MILK IN OHIO, RIGHT? 19 A YES . 20 Q AND THAT, IN FACT, HAD BEEN THE SUBJECT 21 OF COMMUNICATIONS BETWEEN STATE HEALTH OFFICIALS IN 22 OHIO AND MONSANTO? 23 A YES, THAT WAS DUE TO A SILO PAINT. 24 Q A SILO PAINT? 25 A YES, I THINK SO. 26 Q SO WHAT HAD HAPPENED WAS THE PAINT EITHER 27 FLAKED OFF THE WALLS OF THE SILO AND CONTAMINATED THE 28 CORN -- HARTOLDMON0042019 3771 1 A YES, OVER A NUMBER OF YEARS THAT HAD 2 HAPPENED, YES. 3 Q -- OR THE PCB'S HAD ACTUALLY LEACHED OUT 4 OF THE PAINT INTO THE CORN? 5 A I THINK THE FORMER, PERSONALLY. 6 Q OKAY. 7 A FROM WHAT I CANRECALL. 8 Q AND YOU ASKED MR. PAPAGEORGE TO REFER TO 9 THE PROBABLE INTERVENTION OF THE FDA TO FIX MINIMUM 10 LEVELS OF PCB'S IN FOOD STUFFS, ITEM C? 11 A YES, THANK YOU. 12 Q AND YOU ASKED HIM TO REFER TO THE FACT 13 THAT THERE HAD BEEN A MEETING BETWEEN SOME OF YOUR 14 PEOPLE AND THE FEDERAL WATER POLLUTION CONTROL 15 AUTHORITIES? 16 A YES . 17 Q AND YOU ASKED THEM TO REFER TO THE FACT 18 THAT THERE WAS INCREASING CONCERN IN THE UNITED 19 KINGDOM AND THE INTERVENTION OF THE MINISTRY OF 20 AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD? 21 A YES . 22 Q OKAY. NOW, YOU RECOMMENDED TO 23 MR. PAPAGEORGE THAT THERE WAS NO POINT IN 24 DISCONTINUING THE SALE OF 1254 AND 1260, RIGHT? 25 A YES . 26 Q IN FACT, WHAT YOU SAID TO HIM WAS, ON 27 PAGE -- THE BOTTOM OF PAGE 2, POINT 10, "AT THIS 28 STAGE THERE IS NO POINT IN DISCONTINUING THE HARTOLDMON0042020 3772 1 MANUFACTURE OF 1254 AND 1260. THAT RESTRICTION OF 2 THEIR USE IS FAR MORE LIKELY TO GET US OFF THE HOOK 3 AND ENABLE US TO MAINTAIN MAXIMUM PROFITABILITY WHILE 4 PRESERVING A RESPONSIBLE IMAGE AS A COMPANY." 5 A YEAH. 6 Q OKAY. NOW, WHAT YOU MEANT WAS THAT YOU 7 WANTED TO AVOID GOVERNMENTAL INTERVENTION AND 8 PRESSURE, RIGHT? 9 A I'M NOT SURE I WASWORRIED ABOUT 10 GOVERNMENTAL INTERFERENCE AT THAT STAGE. 11 YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE STATEMENT IN 12 ITEM 10? 13 Q YES, I AM. 14 A NO, I DON'T THINKTHATIS CORRECT. 15 I THINK I WAS VERY CONCERNED THAT WE WERE 16 LOOKING AT TWO SIDES OF A PROBLEM. 17 ONE WAS POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS GETTING 18 INTO THE ENVIRONMENT. 19 TWO, A VERY SERIOUS FIRE HAZARD IN THE 20 ELECTRICAL INDUSTRY, IN THE TRANSFORMERS AND 21 CAPACITORS. WHICH THE MAJOR CUSTOMERS, SUCH AS GENERAL 22 ELECTRIC AND WESTINGHOUSE, CONTINUED TO IMPRESS UPON 2 3 US . - 24 AND I FELT WE OUGHT TO TRY TO TAKE A 25 BALANCED ATTITUDE AND TRY TO SELL THE STUFF AND MAKE 2 6 SURE IT WAS CONTAINED AND THAT THE LOOP WAS CLOSED. 27 CERTAINLY I WAS CONCERNED ABOUT LOSING 28 SOME BUSINESS, OF COURSE, BUT THAT WASN'T THE ONLY HARTOLDMON0042021 3773 1 POINT. 2 Q AND YOU WERE CONCERNED ABOUT GOVERNMENTAL 3 INTERVENTION? 4 A NOT PARTICULARLY AT THAT STAGE. 5 I WAS IN THE FOOD STUFFS AREA AS I SAID 6 BEFORE, BUT NOT IN THE TOTAL PCB BUSINESS, NOT AT 7 THAT STAGE, NO, SIR. 8 Q MR. MASON, I WOULD LIKE TO READ FROM 9 VOLUME ONE OF YOUR DEPOSITION OF OCTOBER 21, 1992, 10 PAGE 102, LINES 14 THROUGH 16. 11 A IS IT HERE? 12 Q NO. NOT EXACTLY. 13 THE COURT: GO AHEAD. 14 MR. TALLON: ACTUALLY WE WILL START ON 101, 15 LINE 11 THROUGH 103, LINE 1. (READING): 16 "Q. TURNING TO THE VERY 17 LAST PAGE, ACTUALLY THE SENTENCE 18 THAT BEGINS ON PAGE 2 IS 19 PARAGRAPH 10 WHEN YOU SAY, QUOTE, 20 'RESTRICTION OF THEIR USES,' 21 UNQUOTE, AND YOU ARE REFERRING 22 BACK TO 1254 AND 1260, QUOTE, 'IS 2 3 FAR MORE LIKELY TO GET US OFF THE 24 HOOK AND ENABLE US TO MAINTAIN 25 MAXIMUM PROFITABILITY WHILE 26 PRESERVING A RESPONSIBLE IMAGE AS 27 A COMPANY,' UNQUOTE. WERE YOU 28 REFERRING TO THE APPEASEMENT OF HARTOLDMON0042022 3774 1 THE PRESSURES FROM THEIR VARIOUS 2 POINTS OF PRESSURE THAT YOU 3 REFERRED TO BEFORE WHEN YOU - 4 WHEN YOU MADE THE STATEMENT, 5 QUOTE, 'GET US OFF THE,' QUOTE 6 UNQUOTE. 7 "A. MAY I JUST READ THIS 8 IN ITS ENTIRETY, JUST NUMBER 10 9 IN ITS ENTIRETY? 10 "Q. OF COURSE. 11 "A. YES, PRIMARILY I WAS 12 REFERRING TO THAT. 13 "Q. DID YOU MEAN ANYTHING 14 ELSE? 15 "A. NO, I DON'T THINK SO. 16 I'VE GOT TO COME BACK TO THE 17 QUESTION YOU ASKED ME ABOUT THE 18 FDA SOMEWHERE. 19 I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY BUT -- 20 "Q. IS PARAGRAPH C WHICH 21 REFERS TO PROBABLE INTERVENTION 22 OF THE -- 23 "A. THAT WOULD BE IN MY 24 MIND. I'M QUITE SURE OF THAT. 25 "Q. YOU WERE CONCERNED 26 ABOUT THE INTERVENTION OF 27 GOVERNMENTAL AGENCIES? 28 "A. YES. THIS IS -- MY HARTOLDMON0042023 3 775 1 WHOLE FEELING OF BEING AGGRESSIVE 2 IS I THOUGHT THIS SHOULD BE A 3 PROBLEM WHICH MONSANTO SHOULD 4 TACKLE ITSELF, SHOULD SOLVE AND 5 SHOULD NOT BE IN A POSITION WHERE 6 IT WAS FORCED TO DO VARIOUS 7 THINGS BY GOVERNMENTAL AGENCIES. 8 I HONESTLY BELIEVE MONSANTO DID A 9 VERY GOOD JOB IN TACKLING THIS 10 PROBLEM, GOING OUT, DOING THE JOB 11 IT HAD TO DO WITHOUT BEING FORCED 12. TO DO IT BY REGULATIONS, BY 13 GOVERNMENT AGENCIES." 14 Q OKAY. NOW, MR. PAPAGEORGE DID MAKE A 15 PRESENTATION AT THE MEETING OF THE CMC THAT OCCURRED 16 IN APRIL? 17 A ' CORRECT, APRIL, 1970. 18 Q ALL RIGHT. AND MR. PAPAGEORGE PRESENTED 19 A PLAN WHICH WAS BASED ON HIS INITIAL DRAFT WHICH WE 20 HAVE SEEN AND YOUR COMMENTS TO IT, CORRECT? 21 A SOME MODIFICATIONS, YES. 22 Q AND AT THE CMC MEETING OF APRIL 20, 1970 23 THE CMC WAS NOT SATISFIED WITH THAT? 24 A NOT COMPLETELY. 25 Q THEY WANTED MORE? 26 A YEAH. 27 Q THEY HAD DISCUSSED WITH YOU IN NOVEMBER 28 DISCONTINUING THE SALE OF 1254 AND 1260 AND YOU HART OLDMON0042024 3776 1 REPRESENTING THE BUSINESS DIVISION WITH 2 MR. PAPAGEORGE CAME BACK IN APRIL AND SAID, "WE DON'T 3 THINK THAT IS A GOOD IDEA," RIGHT? 4 A CORRECT. 5 Q OKAY. AND THE CMC WANTED THE BUSINESS 6 PEOPLE IN THE DIVISION TO TAKE MORE AGGRESSIVE 7 ACTION, RIGHT? 8 A YES . 9 Q OKAY. IN FACT, THE CMC TOLD THEBUSINESS 10 PEOPLE THAT ONE OF THE THINGS THEY WANTED TO HAVE 11 DONE WAS TO DEVELOP A SUBSTITUTE FOR THE NCR 12 APPLICATION ON A CRASH BASIS, RIGHT? 13 A YES . 14 Q IN FACT, IF YOU LOOK AT TRANSWESTERN 152, 15 MR. MASON -- WELL, SKIP IT. 16 AT THE APRIL '70 MEETING THE CMC ASKED 17 FOR DEVELOPMENT OF A SUBSTITUTE FOR THE NCR 18 APPLICATION ON A CRASH BASIS, RIGHT? 19 A I THINK THAT IS TRUE. 20 I DON'T HAVE IT IN FRONT OF ME, SIR. 21 Q OKAY. AND THE REASON WHY THE CMC ASKED 22 FOR A SUBSTITUTE FOR THE NCR APPLICATION ON A CRASH 23 BASIS WAS THAT THE NCR APPLICATION WAS CARBONLESS 24 CARBON PAPER, RIGHT? 25 A CORRECT. 26 Q AND CARBONLESS CARBON PAPER WAS ANOTHER 27 EXAMPLE OF A USE BY A CUSTOMER OF PCB'S THAT WAS VERY 28 OPEN? HARTOLDMON0042025 3777 1 A YES. 2 Q AND THE NCR CARBON PAPER WAS MADE WITH 3 1242? 4 A IT WAS, YES. 5 Q OKAY. SO AT THEAPRIL 20, 1970 MEETING 6 YOU AND MR. PAPAGEORGE AND THE OTHER FOLKS 7 REPRESENTING THE BUSINESS GROUP WERE INSTRUCTED TO GO 8 DO A BETTER PLAN? 9 A YES . 10 Q OKAY. AND, IN FACT, YOU DID THAT? 11 A YES, WE DID. 12 Q YOU RETURNED TO THE CMC ON MAY 11, 1970? 13 A YES . 14 Q AND THAT WAS WITHTHE SIX-POINT PLAN THAT 15 YOU AND MR. PREUSS TALKED ABOUT JUST A MOMENT AGO? 16 A THAT IS CORRECT. 17 Q NOW YOU CAN TURN TO 152. 18 A YES . 19 Q THOSE ARE THE MINUTES OF THE CMC FOR MAY 20 11, 1970, RIGHT? 2 1 A THAT IS CORRECT. 22 Q AND AS YOU AND MR. PREUSS DISCUSSED, THE 23 FIRST PAGE OF THAT DOCUMENT OUTLINES THE SIX POINT 24 PLAN WHICH WAS RECOMMENDED AND ADOPTED? 25 A YES. 26 Q OKAY. FLIP OVER IN THAT SAME VOLUME, IF 27 YOU WOULD, PLEASE, TO 154, MR. MASON. 28 A YES. HARTOLDMON0042026 3778 1 Q THAT IS A COPY OF A MEMO FROM YOU TO 2 HOWARD BERGEN AND MR. SPRINGGATE OF MAY 11, 1970 3 ENCLOSING THE PRESENTATION MATERIALS THAT YOU HAD 4 USED TO ACTUALLY TALK TO THE COMMITTEE? 5 A YES . 6 Q OKAY. AND THESE WERE THE ACTUAL NOTES 7 AND/OR SLIDES THAT YOU HAD USED IN YOUR DISCUSSION 8 WITH THEM ON MAY 11, 1970? 9 A YES . 10 Q OKAY. AND ONE OF THE THINGS YOU TOLD THE 11 CMC WAS THAT YOUR OBJECTIVE IN PUTTING TOGETHER THIS 12 PLAN WAS TO MAINTAIN A PROFITABLE BUSINESS SERVING 13 THE NEEDS OF FUNCTIONAL FLUIDS USERS AND THE 14 CARBONLESS DUPLICATING PAPER INDUSTRY WHILE 15 MINIMIZING THE ESCAPE OF NON-BIODEGRADABLE BIPHENYLS 16 INTO THE ENVIRONMENT, RIGHT? 17 A CORRECT. 18 Q NOW, AT THAT POINTTHERE WASCONCERN 19 ABOUT 1242 IN THE CARBONLESS CARBON PAPER, RIGHT? 20 A YES . 21 Q AND WE HAVEALREADYESTABLISHED THAT THE 22 CIC WANTED A SUBSTITUTE DEVELOPED FOR THAT BECAUSE IT 23 WAS A PRODUCT THAT CONTAINED THE HIGHER-CHLORINATED 24 ISOMERS, RIGHT? 25 A CORRECT. 26 I THINK I HAVE TO SAY -- EXCUSE ME, I 27 LOST MY VOICE. 28 I HAVE TO SAY AT THIS POINT THAT THERE HART OLDMON0042027 3779 1 WAS ALSO BEGINNING TO BE AN UNDERSTANDING THAT 1242, 2 ITSELF, WAS A PRODUCT WHICH SHOULDN'T BE GETTING INTO 3 THE ENVIRONMENT, ANYMORE THAN 1254 SHOULD. 4 Q OKAY. NOW, IF YOU WILL TURN TO THE VERY 5 NEXT PAGE, THE ONE ENTITLED "ACTION TO ACHIEVE 6 OBJECTIVES," THAT IS BASICALLY THE OVERALL ACTION 7 THAT YOU WERE RECOMMENDING AT THE TIME? 8 A IT IS. 9 Q AND ONE OF THOSE THINGS WAS, "PHASEOUT OF 10 ALL NON-CONTROLLABLE APPLICATIONS REPLACING WITH 11 BIODEGRADABLE CHLORINATED BIPHENYLS OR OTHER 12 SATISFACTORY PRODUCTS"? 13 A YEAH. 14 Q OKAY. HAD YOU CONSIDERED THAT THE BEST 15 WAY TO INSURE LACK OF ENVIRONMENTAL CONTAMINATION WAS 16 TO COMPLETELY DISCONTINUE SALES? 17 A OF POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS? 18 Q YES . 19 A IT CERTAINLY WAS ONE ALTERNATIVE WHICH WE 20 LOOKED AT AND OBJECTED, PRIMARILY FOR THE REASONS I 2 1 EXPLAINED TO YOU, THAT WE HAD THE ELECTRICAL 22 INDUSTRY, THE SEVERE FIRE RISK. 23 THAT ALSO EXISTED IN HEAT TRANSFER FLUIDS 24 TO A CERTAIN EXTENT. 25 Q UH-HUH. 26 A I RECOGNIZE WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. 27 BUT WE FELT IT WAS NOT THE RIGHT 28 OBJECTIVE AT THAT POINT IN TIME. HARTOLDMON0042028 3780 1 Q OKAY. LET'S FOCUS FOR A SECOND ON THE 2 ELECTRICAL INDUSTRY. 3 A YEAH. 4 Q AT THAT TIME THE ELECTRICAL INDUSTRY USED 5 PCB'S TO PREVENT THE RISK OF FIRE IN TRANSFORMERS AND 6 CAPACITORS? 7 A YES . 8Q 9 THEM? AND THERE WAS NO ALTERNATIVE AVAILABLE TO 10 A THAT IS CORRECT, AT THAT TIME. 11 Q AT THAT TIME. 12 A YES . 13 Q LATER ON OTHER SUBSTITUTES WERE MADE 14 AVAILABLE? 15 A I BELIEVE SO, YES. 16 Q YOUR CONCERN WAS IF WE TAKE THE PCB'S OFF 17 THE MARKET FOR THE ELECTRICAL CUSTOMERS THEY WON'T 18 HAVE ANYTHING TO USE AND THAT COULD, AS YOU SAY, 19 PERHAPS CAUSE A BLACKOUT IN NEW YORK CITY, ALTHOUGH 20 YOU THOUGHT THAT WAS KIND OF AN EXAGGERATED CLAIM? 21 A YES, BUT CERTAINLY A SERIOUS FIRE AND 22 EXPLOSION RISK PARTICULARLY IN HIGH-RISE BUILDINGS. 2 3 Q THAT WAS PARTICULARLY A PROBLEM BECAUSE 24 THERE WERE NO SUBSTITUTE PRODUCTS FOR THIS USE? 25 A THAT IS CORRECT. 26 Q DID YOU KNOW AT THAT TIME THERE WERE 27 SUBSTITUTE PRODUCTS THAT TRANSWESTERN COULD HAVE USED 28 AS A LUBRICATING FLUID? HARTOLDMON0042029 3781 1 A WE ARE CHANGING THE SUBJECT. 2 NOW WE ARE TALKING NOW ABOUT 3 TRANSWESTERN? 4 Q WE ARE. 5 A I PERSONALLY DID NOT. 6 I UNDERSTOOD THAT WHEN TEXAS EASTERN GAS 7 DEVELOPED TURBINOL WITH MONSANTO THAT THEY HAD 8 REJECTED CERTAIN OTHER FLUIDS AS BEING UNSUITABLE FOR - 9 THEIR PURPOSES. 10 NOW, ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE? 11 Q DO YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT 1958? 12 A I 7 M SORRY? 13 Q YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT DEVELOPMENT OF 14 OS-81? 15 A I'M TALKING ABOUT THE ORIGINALEVENT, 16 WHICH IS TURBINOL-153. 17 Q THAT WAS SOMETHING YOU DIDN'T HAVE ANY 18 PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE OF? 19 A I CERTAINLY DID NOT. 20 Q SO YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT ROLE TEXAS EASTERN 2 1 PLAYED OF YOUR OWN PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE? 22 A NO, I ONLY KNOW WHAT I WAS TOLD BY THE 23 MEMBERS OF THE BUSINESS GROUP WHO HAD BEEN INVOLVED. 24 Q OKAY. AND YOU WERE AWARE THAT WHEN THAT 25 PRODUCT WAS FIRST DEVELOPED IN 1958 THERE WERE NO 26 CONCERNS ABOUT WHETHER IT WAS AN ENVIRONMENTAL 27 CONTAMINANT, RIGHT? 28 A THAT IS CORRECT. HARTOLDMON0042030 3782 1 Q IN FACT IT DIDN'T EVEN COME UP WITHIN 2 MONSANTO FOR THE FIRST TIME UNTIL 1966? 3 A CORRECT. 4 Q SO YOU WOULD HAVE NO BASIS FOR SAYING 5 THAT TEXAS EASTERN OR ANY PURCHASER OF TURBINOL HAD A 6 BASIS TO KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ENVIRONMENTAL 7 CONTAMINATION IN 1958 OR LATER? 8 A NO, NO, THEY CERTAINLY WOULDN'T. 9 IT DEPENDS HOW MUCH LATER. 10 Q OKAY. WE WILL GET TO THAT. 11 NOW, YOUR PRESENTATION FOCUSED IN PART ON 12 AROCLOR 1242, CORRECT? 13 A YES, IT MUST HAVE BEEN. 14 Q OKAY. WHY DON'T YOU TURN TO THE PAGE 15 THAT IS TITLED "BIODEGRADATION." 16 MR. MASON, IF YOU LOOK IN THE LOWER 17 RIGHT-HAND CORNER OF EACH PAGE, THEY ARE NUMBERED AND 18 THIS PARTICULAR PAGE NUMBER IS 85287. 19 A FINE, I'VE GOT IT, THANK YOU. 20 Q OKAY. NOW, ONE OF THE THINGS YOU TOLD 2 1 THE CMC WHEN YOU MET WITH THEM IN MAY WAS THAT THE 22 CRITICAL PRODUCT IS 1242, RIGHT? 23 A YES. 24 Q BECAUSE IT CONTAINS SOME50 ISOMERS, GOOD 25 RESPONSE ON TWO, THREE AND SOME FOUR CHLORINES 26 ISOMERS, RIGHT? 27 A YES . 28 Q AND THAT MEANT TO YOU THAT THE 5/6 HARTOLDMON0042031 3783 1 CHLORINE ISOMERS IN 1242 WERE NOT HAVING A GOOD 2 RESPONSE TO BIODEGRADATION TESTS? 3 A CORRECT. 4 Q SO THIS WAS A CRITICAL PRODUCT IN YOUR 5 MIND? 6 A YES . 7 Q AND A REASON THAT IT WAS A CRITICAL 8 PRODUCT IN YOUR MIND WAS THAT 1242 WAS THE BIGGEST 9 SELLING AROCLOR, RIGHT? 10 A THAT IS CORRECT, YEAH. 11 Q AND IT WAS CRITICAL BECAUSE IN ADDITION 12 TO THE TWO, THREE AND FOUR CHLORINE ISOMERS IT ALSO 13 CONTAINED THE 5/6 CHLORINE ISOMERS? 14 A YES . 15 Q SO THERE WAS A CONCERN IN YOUR MIND THAT 16 WHAT WAS BEING SEEN IN THE ENVIRONMENT COULD VERY 17 WELL HAVE BEEN AROCLOR 1242 WITH THE TWO, THREE AND 18 FOUR WASHED OUT BY RAIN AND WIND AND WATER OR RAIN 19 AND WIND AND SUN? 2 0 A IT COULD. 2 1 THAT IS, OFCOURSE, THEREASON FOR 22 TACKLING THE NCR PROBLEM AS A SERIOUS MATTER, WHICH 2 3 WE WERE DOING. 24 Q THAT IS THEREASON YOU TOOKTHE PRODUCT 25 AWAY FROM NCR, IS BECAUSE YOU WERE CONCERNED ABOUT 2 6 THE RISK OF INTRODUCING THE CRITICAL PRODUCT 1242 27 INTO A USE WHERE IT COULD BE WIDESPREAD? 28 A CORRECT. HART OLDMON0042032 3784 1 Q OKAY. NOW, YOU WERE WORKING AT THAT 2 POINT ON A SUBSTITUTE FOR 1242, RIGHT? 3 A YES, WE WERE. 4 Q AND THAT WAS A PRODUCT THAT WAS SPECIALLY 5 DISTILLED 1242 TO REMOVE THOSE HIGHER-CHLORINATED 6 BLENDS, THE 5/6'S AND HIGHER? 7 A YES. 8 Q LOOK BACK FOR ME, FOR A MOMENT, IF YOU 9 WOULD, PLEASE, AT 152. 10 IT'S THE MINUTES OF THE MAY MEETING. 11 A UH-HUH. YES, I'MWITH YOU. 12 Q NOW, THE FIRST POINTOF YOUR SIX-POINT 13 PLAN WAS "DISCONTINUE SALE OF 1242. TO NCR"? 14 A YES . 15 Q AND THE REASON YOU WANTED TO DOTHAT WAS 16 BECAUSE YOU RECOGNIZED THE RISK THAT IT WAS AN 17 ENVIRONMENTAL CONTAMINANT? 18 A WE DID. 19 Q SO POINT ONEDEALS ONLYWITH NCR; AM I 20 CORRECT? 21 A. YES. 22 Q POINT TWO,"CLOSE THE LOOP ON HEAT 23 TRANSFER APPLICATIONS." SO POINT TWO DEALS ONLY WITH 24 HEAT TRANSFER APPLICATIONS? 25 A YES . 26 Q POINT THREE,"REPLACE ALL 27 NON-BIODEGRADABLE CHLORINATED BIPHENYLS IN HYDRAULIC 28 APPLICATIONS," RIGHT? HARTOLD MO N0042033 3785 ( ) ,A l YES. F2 Q AT THIS TIME YOU UNDERSTOOD THAT ALL 3 NON-BIODEGRADABLE CHLORINATED BIPHENYLS INCLUDED i 4 1242, RIGHT? * 5 A YES, PARTS OF 1242 ARE NON-BIODEGRADABLE, 6 RIGHT. .7 Q BECAUSE IF YOU TRIED TO DEGRADE 1242 THE 1 8 FIVES AND SIXES WOULD STILL BE LEFT? \9 A THAT IS CORRECT. 10 Q SO POINT THREE MEANT THAT YOU WANTED TO 11 TAKE THE - - YOU WANTED TO TAKE 1242 OUT OF THE 1 12 HYDRAULIC APPLICATIONS? 13 A YES . 14 Q AND THAT WAS BECAUSE IT WAS UNACCEPTABLE 15 TO MONSANTO THAT IN SOME FACTORY SOMEWHERE A 16 HYDRAULIC PRESS OR OTHER MACHINE COULD BREAK DOWN AND 1 F 17 SPRAY 1242 ALL OVER THE PLACE? 18 A THAT IS CORRECT, YES. 19 Q OKAY. THEN POINT FOUR, "CLOSE THE LOOP 2 0 ON NON-BIODEGRADABLE CHLORINATED BIPHENYLS IN \ \ 2 1 TRANSFORMERS." 22 SO POINT FOUR DEALS WITH TRANSFORMERS t 23 ONLY? l 24 1 25 A YES . Q OKAY. "CLOSE THE LOOP ON CAPACITORS AS 26 FAR AS POSSIBLE." 1 27 SO POINT FIVE IS CAPACITORS, OKAY? > 28 A YES, IT IS. HARTOLDMON0042034 3786 1 Q AND THE LAST POINT IS "TERMINATE SALES OF 2 ALL NON-BIODEGRADABLE CHLORINATED BIPHENYLS TO 3 VARIOUS NON-CONTROLLABLE END USES." 4 A YES . 5 Q OKAY. NOW, WHERE DOES TURBINOL FIT IN 6 HERE, MR. MASON? 7 A TURBINOL DOESN'T FIT INTO THAT LAST 8 CATEGORY. 9 WE UNDERSTOOD TURBINOL TO BE A PRODUCT 10 WHICH WAS IN A CONTROLLED APPLICATION. 11 Q HOW MANY OTHER PRODUCTS WAS MONSANTO 12 SELLING AT THIS TIME WHICH WERE NOT COVERED BY THE 13 SIX-POINT PLAN? 14 A I DON'T THINK THERE ARE ANY PRODUCTS. 15 IT IS COVERED. 16 I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU MEAN. 17 LET ME PUT IT THIS WAY. 18 WHEN YOU ARE TRYING TO PRESENT A SPECIFIC 19 PLAN LIKE THIS, YOU DO COVER A LOT OF PRODUCTS IN 20 EACH ITEM 21 THE BOTTOM ONE, IF YOU LIKE, IS A 22 NEGATIVE REFERRAL TO TURBINOL-153, ON THE BASIS THAT 23 WE BELIEVED THAT TEXAS EASTERN GAS WERE OPERATING A 24 CLOSED SYSTEM. THEY ARE A HIGHLY SOPHISTICATED 25 COMPANY WITH HIGHLY EXPERIENCED ENGINEERS. 26 Q OKAY. SO BY NEGATIVE IMPLICATION 27 TURBINOL WAS NOT COVERED BY ANY POINT ON THIS? 28 A THAT'S CORRECT. ................................... "..... ~ ...... HARTOLDMON0042035 3787 1 Q WHAT OTHER PRODUCTS WERE NOT COVERED? 2 A I WILL BE HONEST. 3 I CAN'T THINK OF ONE AT THE MOMENT. 4 BUT THERE COULD BE. 5 Q SO IS IT YOUR TESTIMONY, MR. MASON, THAT 6 OF ALL THE PCB PRODUCTS MONSANTO WAS SELLING AT THIS 7 POINT, THE ONLY ONE NOT COVERED BY YOUR SIX-POINT 8 PLAN WAS TURBINOL? 9 A I THINK THAT IS TRUE. 10 BUT TURBINOL WAS A SPECIAL APPLICATION. 11 TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, WE WEREN'T 12 SELLING TO OTHER COMPANIES WITH THIS PRODUCT. 13 Q WAS THAT ARGUMENT ACTUALLY PRESENTED TO 14 THE CMC AT THIS MAY 11, 1970 MEETING? 15 A NO, I DON'T THINK IT WAS. 16 Q AND THAT IS BECAUSE YOU HADN'T REALLY 17 CONSIDERED TURBINOL? 18 IN FACT, YOU HAD FORGOT ABOUT IT? 19 A THAT IS NOT TRUE. 2 0 Q IN FACT, TURBINOL REPRESENTED ONLY A 2 1 FRACTION OF MONSANTO'S PCB FLUID SALES, RIGHT? 2 2 A THAT IS TRUE. 2 3 Q OKAY. . 24 A BUT WE WENT ON SELLING THE PRODUCT TO 25 TEXAS EASTERN BECAUSE WE BELIEVED IT WAS IMPORTANT TO 2 6 IT. 27 Q AND YOU SOLD IT TO COLUMBIA GULF? 28 A I BELIEVE SO. HARTOLDMON0042036 3788 1 Q OKAY. NOW, THE COMMITTEE SAID THERE 2 SHOULD BE NO DELAY? 3 A YES . 4 Q OKAY. AND THE DIVISION, THE BUSINESSMEN, 5 THEN STARTED WORKING OUT THE ACTUAL ADOPTION OF THE 6 SIX-POINT PLAN TO THE PRODUCTS? 7 A YES . 8 Q OKAY. NOW, AT THE TIME YOU WERE MAKING 9 THESE RECOMMENDATIONS TO THE CMC, DID YOU KNOW THAT 10 TURBINOL WAS USED UNDER HIGH PRESSURE, OVER 900 11 POUNDS PER SQUARE INCH? 12 A I DON'T THINK I PERSONALLY WAS AWARE OF 13 THAT AT THAT TIME. 14 Q DID ROGER HATTON EVER TELL YOU WHETHER 15 COLUMBIA GULF HAD LOST SEVERAL THOUSAND GALLONS OF 16 TURBINOL DOWN THEIR PIPELINE? 17 A HE CERTAINLY DID NOT. 18 Q HAD YOU KNOWN THAT INFORMATION WOULD YOU 19 HAVE FELT DIFFERENTLY ABOUT TURBINOL? 20 A I COULD HAVE FELT -- I COULD HAVE FELT 21 DIFFERENTLY ABOUT COLUMBIA. 22 BUT I CERTAINLY WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY 23 CONCERNED. 24 Q WELL, WOULD YOU HAVE FELTDIFFERENTLY 25 ABOUT TEXAS EASTERN OR TRANSWESTERN? 26 A I WOULD CERTAINLY HAVE EXPECTED OUR 27 SALESMEN, ENGINEERS TO CONTACT THE COMPANY AND 28 DISCUSS THAT PROBLEM WITH THEM. HARTOLDMON0042037 3789 1 Q OKAY. 2 A BUT I WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY SURPRISED AT 3 THAT INFORMATION. 4 Q YOU RELIED ON THE SALESMEN AND THE PEOPLE 5 INVOLVED IN THE FIELD TO PASS ON INFORMATION, RIGHT? 6 A YOU HAVE TO, YES. 7 Q ACTUALLY YOU NEVER HAD ANYDIRECT 8 COMMUNICATIONS WITH TEXAS EASTERN OR TRANSWESTERN? 9 A NO, I DID NOT. 10 Q OKAY. YOU TESTIFIEDEARLIER IN RESPONSE 11 TO QUESTIONS FROM MR. PREUSS THAT YOU MET 12 PERIODICALLY WITH THE REGIONAL SALESPEOPLE TO DISCUSS 13 WITH THEM WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THE.PCB ENVIRONMENTAL 14 ISSUE? 15 A CORRECT. 16 Q OKAY. SO YOU WOULD EXPECT THAT SALESMEN 17 ON THE FRONTLINE, LIKE MR. FREDERICKSON, WOULD KNOW 18 THINGS ABOUT BIODEGRADATION, FOR EXAMPLE? 19 A YES, I CERTAINLY WOULD. 2 0 HE WOULD HAVE A GENERAL KNOWLEDGE ABOUT 21 BIODEGRADATION. 22 Q AND HE WOULD KNOW WHAT BIOACCUMULATION 23 WAS? 24 A I WOULD THINK SO. 25 Q AND BIOMAGNIFICATION? 26 A I WOULD THINK IF NOTHING ELSE THAT HE 27 WOULD HAVE SEEN IT IN SOME ARTICLES WE READ. 28 Q ALL RIGHT. NOW, YOU REPORT IN SEPTEMBER, HART OLDMON0042038 3790 1 1970 TO THE CMC ON THE PROGRESS BEING MADE ON THE 2 SIX-POINT PLAN, CORRECT? 3 A YES. 4 Q AND IF YOU WOULD LOOK, PLEASE, AT 5 TRANSWESTERN 178, MR. MASON, I THINK YOU WILL SEE - 6 IT MAY BE IN A DIFFERENT VOLUME THAN THE ONE YOU 7 HAVE. 8 IN FACT, I BELIEVE IT'S IN VOLUME 4. 9 A 178? 10 Q YES. OKAY? 11 A OKAY- YES. 12 Q NOW, THOSE ARE THE MINUTES OF THE 13 CORPORATE MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE FOR THEIR SEPTEMBER 14 30, 1970 MEETING THAT YOU ATTENDED, RIGHT? 15 A CORRECT. 16 Q AND AT THAT MEETINGYOUPRESENTED TO THEM 17 A STATUS-UPDATE ON WHERE THINGS STOOD ON THE 18 SIX-POINT PLAN? 19 A YES . 20 Q OKAY. NOW, TURN TO PAGE 2, IF YOU WOULD, 21 PLEASE, MR. MASON. 22 OKAY. POINT FOUR, "REPLACE 23 NON-BIODEGRADABLE CHLORINATED BIPHENYLS IN HYDRAULIC 24 APPLICATIONS." 25 THAT WAS ONE OF THE POINTS OF THE 26 ORIGINAL SIX-POINT PLAN, RIGHT? 27 A YES, IT WAS. 28 Q AND ACTUALLY BY THIS POINT THESIX-POINT HARTOLDMON0042039 3791 1 PLAN HAS BECOME A FIVE-POINT PLAN BECAUSE YOU HAVE 2 MELDED POINTS FIVE AND SIX? 3 A YES . 4 Q OKAY. AND WHAT YOU WERE DOING AT THAT 5 MEETING WAS THAT YOU WERE ASKING THE CMC FOR MORE 6 TIME? 7 A IN THE CASE OF HYDRAULIC FLUIDS, YES. 8 Q AND A REASON FOR THAT WAS THAT 9 REPLACEMENT PRODUCTS WEREN'T AVAILABLE? 10 A PART OF THE REASON, YES. 11 Q OKAY. WHEN YOU WERE IN THE PROCESS OF 12 MAKING A REPLACEMENT PRODUCT, YOU WOULD SELL THE 13 PCB-CONTAINING PRODUCT UNTIL THE REPLACEMENT WAS 14 AVAILABLE, RIGHT? 15 A YES, WE WOULD. 16 Q OKAY. NOW, THE -- AFTER THIS MEETING THE 17 NEXT TIME YOU GO TO THE CMC TO UPDATE THEM, 18 PERSONALLY, ON THE PCB ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUE IS MARCH, 19 1971? 20 A YES, CORRECT. 2 1 Q AND IF YOU WOULD LOOK AT EXHIBIT 193, 22 PLEASE, THAT WOULD BE IN THE SAME VOLUME. 23 A YES, I HAVE IT. 24 NO. 25 173? 26 Q 193. 27 A I'M SORRY, 193. 28 THIS IS THE ONE FROM THE DESK OF HARTOLDMON0042040 3792 1 PAPAGEORGE? 2 Q YES, YES. 3 IT'S -- IT HAS, "FROM THE DESK OF W.B. 4 PAPAGEORGE." 5 A YES, THANK YOU. 6 Q AND THOSE WERE THE MATERIALS YOU USED TO 7 MAKE A PRESENTATION TO THE CMC IN MARCH, 1971? 8 A YES. 9 Q OKAY. AND, AGAIN, WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS 10 REPORTING TO THEM ON THE STATUS OF WHAT IS GOING ON 11 IN THE WORLD OF PCB'S? 12 A CORRECT. 13 Q OKAY. TURN WITH ME, IF YOU WOULD, 14 PLEASE, MR. MASON, TO THE PAGE TITLED "HYDRAULIC 15 APPLICATIONS II 16 A YES , I'M THERE. 17 Q NOW, YOU TITLED THIS PAGE "HYDRAULIC 18 APPLICATIONS it 19 UNDER POINT TWO YOU WROTE, "AROCLOR 1242 2 0 IS STILL PRESENT IN TWO FLUIDS USED IN GAS 2 1 TRANSMISSION CLOSED SYSTEMS." AND YOU LISTED MCS-974 22 AND TURBINOL-153, RIGHT? 2 3 A YES. . 24 Q AND IT SAYS, "PLAN TO USE MCS-1016 WHEN 25 AVAILABLE," RIGHT? 26 A YES. 27 Q SO AT THIS TIME YOU WERE STILL SELLING 28 TURBINOL-153 WITH THE 1242 IN IT, RIGHT? HARTOLDMON0042041 3793 1 A YES, CORRECT. 2 Q BECAUSE AT THAT TIME YOU WERE WORKING ON 3 BUT HADN'T DEVELOPED THE APPROPRIATE SUBSTITUTE WITH 4 MCS-1016, RIGHT? 5 A YES . 6 Q OKAY. NOW, WHEN YOU LISTEDTURBINOL-153 7 UNDER HYDRAULIC APPLICATIONS, YOU WERE CERTAINLY 8 RECOGNIZING THAT TURBINOL FELL WITHIN THE HYDRAULIC 9 FAMILY? 10 A NOT NECESSARILY. 11 I THINK I WAS PUTTING IT IN THERE FOR 12 CONVENIENCE. 13 IT FIT IN THERE BETTER THAN ANYPLACE ELSE 14 IN THE SIX-POINT PLAN. 15 Q I'M SORRY? 16 A BETTER THAN ANY PLACE ELSE IN THE SIX 17 POINT -- THE FIVE-POINT PLAN FOR SIMPLICITY. 18 Q AND IT FIT IN THERE BETTER THAN ANYWHERE 19 ELSE BECAUSE TURBINOL WAS BLENDED AT QUEENY, RIGHT? 2 0 A YES, BUT I DON'T SEE WHAT THAT'S GOT TO 21 DO WITH IT. 22 Q AND ALL THE PYDRAULS THAT WERE HYDRAULIC 23 FLUIDS WERE BLENDED AT QUEENY, RIGHT? 24 A I SEE NO REASON FOR THAT BEING WHY IT WAS 25 INCLUDED. 26 Q AS A FUNCTIONAL MATTER THE BUSINESS 27 DIVISION TREATED TURBINOL AS A PYDRAUL, RIGHT? 28 A NO. I THINK THEY TREATED IT AS A VERY HARTOLDMON0042042 3794 1 SPECIAL PRODUCT. 2 Q AND ALL THE PYDRAULS WERE HYDRAULIC 3 APPLICATIONS, RIGHT? 4 A YES . 5 MR. TALLON: WE CAN BREAK NOW, YOUR HONOR. 6 THIS IS A CONVENIENT TIME. 7 THE COURT: WE WILL TAKE THE NOON RECESS NOW, 8 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. 9 AND I KNOW, OF COURSE, YOU WILL STAY 10 SOBER. 11 ENJOY YOUR LUNCH. 12 DO REMEMBER THAT THE AFTERNOON, 13 ESPECIALLY THE BEGINNING OF THE AFTERNOON AFTER A BIG 14 LUNCH CAN BE DIFFICULT. 15 SO KEEP THAT IN MIND. 16 HAVE A NICE LUNCH. 17 WE WILL SEE YOU AT TWO O'CLOCK. 18 (AT 12:00 NOON, A RECESS WAS TAKEN 19 UNTIL 2:00 P.M. OF THE SAME DAY.) 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 .... . HARTOLDMON0042043 3795 1 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; TUESDAY, DECEMBER 21, 1993 2 2:00 P.M. 3 DEPARTMENT NO. 31 G. KEITH WISOT, JUDGE 4 5 (APPEARANCES AS HERETOFORE NOTED.) 6 (DAVID A. SALYER, OFFICIAL REPORTER.) 7 8 THE COURT: AND RESUMING. 9 MR. TALLON, YOU MAY CONTINUE. 10 11 JOHN MASON, 12 CALLED AS A WITNESS BY THE DEFENDANT, MONSANTO, 13 HAVING BEEN PREVIOUSLY SWORN TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: 14 15 CROSS EXAMINATION (CONTINUED.) 16 BY MR. TALLON: 17 Q' MR. MASON, JUST BEFORE THE LUNCH BREAK WE 18 WERE TALKING ABOUT THE PRESENTATION YOU MADE TO THE 19 CMC IN MARCH OF '71. 20 A YES, SIR. 21 Q 22 193 . AND WE WERE BOTH LOOKING AT TRANSWESTERN 23 COULD YOU PULL THAT UP AGAIN, PLEASE. 24 A 193? 25 Q 193, YES. 26 A THANK YOU. 27 YES, I HAVE READ IT. 28 Q AND WE LOOKED AT THE PAGE ENTITLED HARTOLDMON0042044 3796 1 "HYDRAULIC APPLICATIONS," RIGHT? 2 A YES . 3 Q OKAY. AND THEN I TAKE IT, PART OF WHAT 4 YOUR JOB WAS AT THAT TIME WAS TO REPORT TO THE CMC ON 5 DEVELOPMENTS IN THE PCB STORY, BASICALLY, WHAT WAS 6 GOING ON? 7 A YES. 8 Q FOR EXAMPLE, ON THE PAGE THAT HAS THE 9 NUMBER AT THE BOTTOM 86390, YOU WERE REPORTING TO THE 10 CMC ON SOME DEVELOPMENTS IN THE INTERNATIONAL AREA. 11 A YES, I HAVE IT. 12 Q OKAY. AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU HAD 13 TO LEARN ABOUT IN ORDER TO MAKE THIS PRESENTATION WAS 14 WHAT WAS GOING ON NOT ONLY IN THE U.S. BUT WHAT WAS 15 GOING ON IN EUROPE WITH RESPECT TO PROPOSED AND 16 ACTUAL REGULATION OF PCB'S? 17 A THAT IS CORRECT. 18 Q AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU TOLD ME 19 ABOUT THE CMC IN MARCH OF '71 WAS THAT IN CONTINENTAL 20 EUROPE, NORWAY AND SWEDEN WERE PLANNING A BAN AND 2 1 LICENSING OF PCB, RIGHT? 22 A YES . 23 Q AND THAT GERMANY IS BECOMINGMORE 24 CONCERNED, RIGHT? 25 A CORRECT. 26 Q AND THAT INJAPAN CONSIDERABLE INTEREST 27 WAS BEING GENERATED? 28 A CORRECT. HARTOLDMON0042045 3797 1 Q OKAY. SO SOME ADDITIONAL TIME GOES BY 2 AND ACTIVITY IN THE WORLD WITH RESPECT TO PCB7S 3 CONTINUES TO PICK UP. 4 THERE IS MORE INTEREST IN THE ISSUE, 5 CORRECT? 6 A THERE IS MORE INTEREST IN THE ISSUE, YES, 7 FROM OUTSIDE AGENCIES. 8 BUT MANUFACTURERS IN EUROPE ARE NOT VERY 9 INTERESTED AT ALL. 10 THEY ARE STILL CONTINUING TO OPEN 11 APPLICATIONS. 12 Q YOU MEAN MANUFACTURERS NOT ASSOCIATED 13 WITH MONSANTO? 14 A YES, CORRECT, GERMANY, FRANCE, ITALY. 15 Q AND BY THE TIME OF THE NOVEMBER, 1971 16 PRESENTATION THAT YOU MAKE TO THE CMC -- IS IT THE 17 CMC AND THE BOARD OR JUST THE CMC? 18 A I7 M SORRY. 19 WE ARE TALKING ABOUT NOVEMBER OF 771? 20 Q YES? 21 A JUST THE CMC. 22 EXCUSE ME. 23 I7 M SORRY, I7 M GETTING MY DATES MIXED UP. 24 THAT WAS A BOARD PRESENTATION, A FULL 25 BOARD. 26 Q 27 22 0 . LOOK, IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE, AT EXHIBIT 28 A STATUS REPORT. HARTOLDMON0042046 3798 1 Q IS THAT THE PRESENTATION MATERIALS YOU 2 USED FOR A MEETING OF THE BOARD OR A MEETING OF THE 3 CMC? 4 A I THINK THIS IS THE BOARD PRESENTATION 5 I'M LOOKING AT, I THINK. 6 Q SO THAT WOULD PLACE THE BOARD 7 PRESENTATION ROUGHLY IN MID-NOVEMBER, 1971? 8 A I THINK IT WAS, YES. 9 Q OKAY. WAS THE TURBINOL USE ACTUALLY 10 DISCUSSED AT THAT BOARD MEETING? 11 A I CAN'T RECALL WITHOUT LOOKING AT THESE. 12 MAY I GO THROUGH THEM? 13 Q SURE. PLEASE GO AHEAD. 14 A IT DOESN'T APPEAR ON THE TRANSPARENCIES 15 OR SLIDES I USED. THAT DOESN'T MEAN TO SAY IT WASN'T 16 DISCUSSED. I JUST CAN'T REMEMBER, TO BE PERFECTLY 17 FRANK. 18 Q LOOK, IF YOU WOULD, AT THE PAGE THAT HAS 19 THIS NUMBER ON THE BOTTOM RIGHT-HAND CORNER 21538. 20 IT'S TITLED "FEDERAL AND STATE 21 AGENCIES." 22 A YES, I HAVE IT. 23 Q AT THE TOP IT SAYS "FEDERAL AND STATE 24 AGENCIES" AND THERE ARE TWO ENTRIES HERE. 25 ONE DEALS WITH THE OFFICE OF SCIENCE AND 2 6 TECHNOLOGY AND THAT IS WHERE DR. BURGER WORKED, 27 RIGHT? 28 A CORRECT. HARTOLDMON0042047 3799 1 Q AND THE SECOND THING YOU NOTE FOR YOUR 2 PRESENTATION IS THAT THE MICHIGAN WATER QUALITY BOARD 3 WAS IMPOSING SEVERE RESTRICTIONS ON PCB LEVELS IN 4 AUTOMOBILE PLANT EFFLUENT, RIGHT? 5 A CORRECT. 6 Q OKAY. AND IF YOU TURN THE PAGE, THE 7 SLIDE OR THE INFORMATION SHEET IS TITLED "SPECIAL 8 PROBLEMS PROPOSED LEGISLATION," CORRECT? 9 A CORRECT. 10 Q AND ONE OF THE THINGS YOU WERE TELLING 11 THE BOARD ABOUT WAS THAT THE RYAN BILL HAD BEEN 12 INTRODUCED AND IT WAS PROPOSED IN THE RYAN BILL THAT 13 THERE WOULD BE A TOTAL BAN ON PCB'-S? 14 A YES . 15 Q THAT WAS CONGRESSMAN RYAN WHOM YOU 16 REFERRED TO EARLIER IN YOUR DISCUSSION WITH 17 MR. PREUSS? 18 A YES . 19 Q BY THIS TIME, ACTUALLY SOMEWHATEARLIER 20 IN 1971, HE HAD INTRODUCED A BILL TO THE UNITED 21 STATES CONGRESS CALLING FOR A COMPLETE BAN ON PCB? 22 A YES, I BELIEVE HE HAD. 23 Q AND PCB WAS BEING USED AS YOU PUT IT AS 24 AN EXAMPLE IN JUSTIFYING THE TOXIC SUBSTANCES ACT, 25 RIGHT? 2 6 A I BELIEVE SO AT THE TIME, YES. 27 Q BY THAT TIME PRESIDENT NIXON HAD SENT A 28 BILL TO CONGRESS PROPOSING A TOXIC SUBSTANCES ACT HARTOLDMON0042048 3800 1 THAT, AMONG OTHER THINGS, WOULD ADDRESS PCB'S, RIGHT? 2 A YES, AMONGST OTHER THINGS. 3 'Q ALL RIGHT. AND IN THE BOTTOM SECTION OF 4 THIS SAME PAGE TITLED "SPECIAL PROBLEMS, PROPOSED 5 LEGISLATION," YOU REVIEWED FOR THE BOARD LAWSUITS 6 THAT HAD COME UP, RIGHT? 7 A YES . 8 Q AND THE FIRST OF THOSE WAS HOLLY FARMS 9 SUING MONSANTO AND OTHERS FOR 56M WITH A LINE OVER 10 IT, THAT MEANS 56 MILLION, CORRECT? 11 A CORRECT. 12. Q EAST COAST TERMINALS INCIDENT? 13 A WHICH I HAVE ALREADY MENTIONED IN MY 14 PREVIOUS TESTIMONY. 15 Q THAT WAS THE INCIDENT WHERE ONE OF -- 16 RATHER A USER OF A HEAT TRANSFER FLUID HAD AN 17 EXPERIENCE WHERE THE TRANSFER MEDIUM WAS LEAKED INTO 18 THE FISH MEAL, RIGHT? 19 A CORRECT. 20 Q AND IT CONTAMINATED THE FISH MEAL WHICH 21 WAS FED TO CHICKENS? 22 A CORRECT. 23 Q AND THE CHICKENS GOT SICK AND DIED? 24 A YES, QUITE A LOT OF CHICKENS DID DIE. 25 Q SO THERE WAS A LAWSUIT AGAINST MONSANTO 26 LOOKING FOR $56 MILLION IN 1971 DOLLARS, RIGHT? 27 A YES . 28 Q AND THERE WAS THREE LAWSUITS FOR MILK HARTOLDMON0042049 3801 1 CONTAMINATION. 2 WERE THOSE RELATED TO THOSE INCIDENTS 3 WHERE YOU DESCRIBED THE PCB PAINT FLAKING OFF AND 4 CONTAMINATING THE COW'S FEED? 5 A IN SILOS, YES. 6 Q YES. AND YOU NOTED THERE COULD BE MORE 7 OF THOSE, RIGHT? 8 A YES, WE THOUGHT IT A POSSIBILITY AT THE 9 TIME, CERTAINLY. 10 Q AND SOMETHING HAPPENING UP IN MINNESOTA 11 WHERE TURKEYS HAD BEEN EXPOSED TO OR CONTAMINATED 12 WITH PCB'S AND THERE WAS, IN YOUR THINKING, A 13 POSSIBLE LAWSUIT THERE? 14 A THERE WAS A POSSIBLE ONE. 15 I DON'T KNOW IF IT EVER MATERIALIZED. 16 Q AND THE ENVIRONMENTAL DEFENSE FUND HAD 17 DEMANDED THAT MONSANTO RELEASE PRODUCTION FIGURES AND 18 WERE PERHAPS THREATENING A LAWSUIT OR INJUNCTION TO 19 SEE THAT MONSANTO DID THAT? 20 A CORRECT. 2 1 Q OKAY. SO AT THIS MEETING OF THE BOARD OF 22 DIRECTORS -- STRIKE THAT. 23 BY THE WAY, HAVE YOU SEEN A COPY OF THE 24 MINUTES OF THIS BOARD MEETING RECENTLY? 25 A NO, BUT I WOULDN'T SEE A COPY OF THE 26 BOARD MINUTES. 27 I WOULD ONLY SEE EXTRACTS FROM CMC OR CDC 28 MINUTES, NOT BOARD MINUTES. HARTOLDMON0042050 3802 1 Q YOUR EXPERIENCE AS THE CHAIRMAN OF A 2 BOARD OF AN ENTITY, MONSANTO UK, YOUR EXPERIENCE IS 3 THAT BOARD MINUTES WOULD BE KEPT? 4 A CORRECT. 5 Q OKAY. THIS WAS THE BOARD MEETING WHERE 6 THE BOARD SAID, "IF WE ARE GOING TO CONTINUE SELLING 7 THIS STUFF IT7 S ON CONDITION THAT OUR CUSTOMERS AGREE 8 TO HOLD US HARMLESS"? 9 A THAT IS CORRECT, SIR, YES. 10 Q AND WHEN YOU WERE TESTIFYING INRESPONSE 11 TO QUESTIONS FROM MR. PREUSS YOU DESCRIBED MONSANTO'S 12 WITHDRAWAL FROM THE PCB BUSINESS, EXCEPT ON THE BASIS 13 OF THOSE HOLD HARMLESS LETTERS AS BEING VOLUNTARY, 14 RIGHT? 15 A YES . 16 Q THERE WAS, IN FACT, NO LEGISLATION WHICH 17 SAID YOU HAD TO STOP DOING WHAT YOU WERE DOING? 18 A THAT IS CORRECT. THERE WAS NOT. 19 Q BUT YOU WEREAWARE THAT THERE WAS, AT 20 THIS TIME, A BAN IN SWEDEN? 2 1 A YES . 22 I'M NOT SURE WHETHER THAT BAN ABSOLUTELY 23 WAS IN PLACE AT THAT TIME. . 24 THERE WAS CERTAINLY A THREAT OF THE BAN. 25 IT WAS LIKELY TO HAPPEN, I AGREE. 26 Q SWITZERLAND? 27 A WHERE? 28 Q SWITZERLAND. HART OLDMON0042051 3803 1 A I DIDN'T KNOW THAT. 2 THEY WOULDN'T USE ANY PCB'S. I DON'T 3 KNOW OF ANY COMPANY THAT DID. 4 Q A BAN HAD BEEN PROPOSED IN FINLAND? 5 A I WOULD EXPECT THAT AFTER SWEDEN, YES. 6 Q AND IN THE UNITED STATES CONGRESSMAN RYAN 7 INTRODUCED A BILL CALLING FOR A COMPLETE BAN ON 8 PCB'S? 9 A AS AGAINST THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, ON THE 10 UNITED KINGDOM MONSANTO HAD AGREED WITH GOVERNMENT 11 AGENCIES ON HOW TO HANDLE THE PROBLEM AND WERE 12 GETTING SUPPORT. 13 Q IN ADDITION, LAWSUITS WERE BEGINNING TO 14 PILE UP, SHALL WE SAY? 15 A THEY WERE. 16 Q SO WHEN MONSANTO WITHDREW FROM THE PCB 17 BUSINESS EXCEPT WHERE CUSTOMERS WERE WILLING TO SIGN 18 HOLD HARMLESS AGREEMENTS, WOULD YOU SAY, MR. MASON, 19 THAT THE HANDWRITING WAS ON THE WALL? 20 A I WOULD THINK, YES, IT WAS ON THE WALL, 2 1 CERTAINLY. 22 Q SO THE PROPOSED LEGISLATION AND THE 23 ACTUAL LEGISLATION INFLUENCED YOUR THINKING THAT WE 24 MIGHT AS WELL GET OUT OF THIS BUSINESS BECAUSE SOONER 25 OR LATER WE ARE GOING TO BE FORCED TO? 26 A I THINK THAT MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN 27 THAT WERE THE INCIDENTS THAT WERE HAPPENING WHICH 28 SHOWED US WE COULD NOT CONTROL AS WE THOUGHT WE COULD HARTOLDMON0042052 3804 1 CONTROL. 2 POSSIBLE LEGISLATION, CERTAINLY. BUT I 3 THINK FIRST INSTANCE WAS WE REALIZED THAT WE HAD A 4 BIGGER PROBLEM THAN WE THOUGHT. 5 AND CLOSING THE LOOP WAS SOMETHING WE 6 COULDN'T ACHIEVE. 7 Q THE MORE YOU THOUGHT ABOUT IT AND THE 8 MORE YOU STUDIED THE USE OF PCB'S IN INDUSTRY, THE 9 MORE IT BECAME APPARENT TO YOU THAT IT WAS JUST 10 REALLY NOT POSSIBLE TO CLOSE THE LOOP? 11 A YES, I HAVE TO SAY THAT. 12 Q OKAY. NOW, LET'S TALK FOR A SECOND ABOUT 13 CONGRESSMAN RYAN. 14 IN TESTIMONY YOU WERE GIVING THIS MORNING 15 IN TALKING TO MR. PREUSS, YOU SAID THAT CONGRESSMAN 16 RYAN HAD CALLED FOR MONSANTO TO RELEASE PRODUCTION 17 RECORDS? 18 A YES . 19 Q AND ON BEHALF OF MR. BOCK, THE PRESIDENT 20 OF MONSANTO, YOU WROTE BACK TO CONGRESSMAN RYAN AND 21 SAID, "NO, WE CAN'T DO THAT"? 22 A I DID A LITTLE BIT MORE THAN THAT. 23 I WENT TO SEE HIM, FIRST OF ALL, BEFORE I 24 WROTE A LETTER. 25 I HAD A LONG DISCUSSION WITH HIM. 2 6 Q YOU VISITED WITHHIM IN WASHINGTON? 27 A I CERTAINLY DID. 28 Q AND THEN YOU WROTE TOHIM? HARTOLDMON0042053 3805 1 A YES. 2 Q AND YOU TWO EXCHANGED LETTERS A COUPLE OF 3 TIMES? 4 A I ALSO VISITED HIM LATER AND WE ALSO HAD 5 TELEPHONE CONVERSATIONS. 6 Q AND HE CONTINUED TO DEMAND THAT MONSANTO 7 RELEASE PRODUCTION FIGURES? 8 A HE DID. 9 Q AND YOU CONTINUEDTO REFUSE? 10 A WITHOUT A CONDITION THAT THEY SHOULD BE 11 CONFIDENTIAL AND USED FOR SCIENTIFIC PURPOSES ONLY. 12 Q NOW, YOU SAID IN TESTIMONY THAT YOU GAVE 13 THIS MORNING IN TALKING TO MR. PREUSS THAT YOUR 14 DISINCLINATION OR DECISION NOT TO GIVE UP THOSE 15 PRODUCTION FIGURES WAS RELATED TO A CONCERN YOU HAD 16 ABOUT THE EUROPEAN PRODUCERS? 17 A' THAT'S CORRECT. 18 Q WHAT WAS THAT CONCERN AGAIN? 19 A THE CONCERN WAS THAT MONSANTO IS THE ONLY 20 PRODUCER IN THE UNITED STATES. 21 THE MARKET HERE, THE WAY THE MARKET HAD 22 BEEN DEVELOPED, WAS MUCH, MUCH BIGGER THAN THE TOTAL 23 EUROPEAN MARKET. 24 WE FELT THAT IF WE DISCLOSED THOSE 25 FIGURES AND IF WE WERE, THEN, GETTING OUT OF 2 6 BUSINESSES, THE WAY WOULD BE OPEN FOR THE CONTINENTAL 27 EUROPEANS TO COME INTO THIS MARKET AND PROBABLY SELL, 28 FOR EXAMPLE, TO OPEN APPLICATIONS LIKE PLASTICIZERS. HARTOLDMON0042054 3806 1 Q IN WHAT WAY WOULD YOUR PRODUCTION FIGURES 2 BEING AVAILABLE INVITE EUROPEAN PRODUCTION OF PCB'S 3 IN UNITED STATES? 4 A IT WOULD SHOW THEM THE SIZE OF THE 5 MARKET. 6 WHEN YOU SEE A BIG MARKET, IF YOU ARE A 7 GOOD MARKETING MAN, YOU GO AFTER IT. 8 Q IN YOUR EXPERIENCE DO COMPANIES LOOK AT 9 MARKETS IN THE ABSENCE OF PRODUCTION FIGURES FROM 10 SPECIFIC COMPANIES? 11 A I'M SORRY. 12 WOULD YOU CLARIFY THAT QUESTION? 13 Q SURE. 14 YOU HAVE DONE A LOT OF WORK IN MARKETING, 15 RIGHT? 16 A YES . 17 Q AND YOU DON'T OFTENHAVE YOUR 18 COMPETITORS' PRODUCTION FIGURES AVAILABLE TO YOU? 19 A NO, THAT IS TRUE. 20 Q WHAT YOU WOULD DO TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT 2 1 HOW THE MARKET IS DIVIDED UP IS YOU WOULD GO OUT AND 22 GET SOME MARKET INTELLIGENCE THAT WOULD TELL YOU WE 23 THINK WE HAVE 35 PERCENT OF THE HEAT TRANSFER 24 BUSINESS BUT PROTOLAX HAS ANOTHER 10 AND BAYER HAS 25 THE REST? 2 6 A YOU WOULD DO SO IF THAT HAD BEEN THE 27 SITUATION. 28 BUT NONE OF THOSE COMPANIES WERE, TO THE HARTOLDMON0042055 3807 1 BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, SELLING IN THE UNITED STATES 2 NOR, TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, HAVE SALESMEN ON 3 THE ROAD IN THIS COUNTRY. 4 HOWEVER, IF THEY SAW THOSE FIGURES, SAW 5 THE SIZE OF THE MARKET, THERE WOULD BE A VERY STRONG 6 DESIRE ON THEIR PART, WE FELT, TO COME INTO THIS 7 MARKET, NOT ONLY TO TAKE OUR BUSINESS BUT THAT WOULD 8 HAVE DEFEATED THE VERY THING WE WERE TRYING TO DO 9 WHICH WAS TO GET OUT OF OPEN APPLICATIONS AND CONTROL 10 THE EMISSIONS TO THE ENVIRONMENT. 11 Q IF THE FOREIGN MANUFACTURERS WANTED TO 12 COME INTO THE UNITED STATES TO SELL PCB'S, NOTHING 13 THAT YOU COULD HAVE DONE WOULD HAVE STOPPED THAT, 14 RIGHT? 15 A CERTAINLY NOT. 16 Q AND WHETHER OR NOT YOU RELEASED YOUR 17 PRODUCTION FIGURES THE OPPORTUNITY WAS ALWAYS 18 AVAILABLE TO THEM TO SAY THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE IN 19 THE UNITED STATES AND A LOT OF BUSINESS, SO WE COULD 20 GO THERE? 21 A BUT THEY HADN'T DONE THAT. 22 CERTAINLY THE PRODUCTION FIGURES WOULD 23 HAVE BEEN AN OPEN INVITATION. 24 Q MONSANTO WAS THE ONLY SELLER OF PCB IN 25 THE UNITED STATES? 26 A TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, YES. 27 Q SO IT WAS MORE ECONOMICAL FOR MONSANTO TO 28 SELL PRODUCT IN THE UNITED STATES THAN FOR A FRENCH HARTOLDMON0042056 3808 1 MANUFACTURER TO SHIP PCB'S ACROSS THE OCEAN, RIGHT? 2 A I WOULD THINK SO BUT THAT DOESN'T ALWAYS 3 STOP YOU FROM GOING INTO EXPORT MARKETS. 4 Q OKAY. NOW, MR. MASON, WHEN YOU -- YOU 5 TESTIFIED IN RESPONSE TO QUESTIONS THAT I ASKED YOU 6 EARLIER THAT WHEN YOU GOT THE JOB AND MOVED TO THE 7 UNITED STATES YOU CAME UPON A LEARNING CURVE AND YOU 8 LEARNED WHAT HAD BEEN DONE BEFORE YOU ARRIVED AND YOU 9 WERE PRETTY MUCH ON TOP OF THE SITUATION UNTIL YOU 10 RETURNED TO ENGLAND, RIGHT? 11 A I HOPED SO, YES. 12 Q OKAY. LET ME SEE IF YOU AGREE WITH ME IN 13 THIS SENSE. 14 IN LATE 1966 MONSANTO LEARNED OF WORK 15 THAT WAS BEING DONE IN SWEDEN BY JENSEN AND WIDMARK, 16 CORRECT? 17 A CORRECT. 18 Q THIS WAS NOT PARTICULARLY WELCOME NEWS? 19 A NO, I WOULDN'T THINK ITWAS. 20 BUT IT WAS VERY CONFUSING NEWS AT THE 2 1 TIME AND IT DID NOT SAY TO US THAT POLYCHLORINATED 22 BIPHENYLS WERE ESCAPING INTO THE ENVIRONMENT. 2 3 Q SO DAVID WOOD WENT TO SWEDEN AND MET WITH 24 JENSEN AND WIDMARK? 25 A HE DID. 26 Q AND HE WROTE BACK TO ST. LOUIS AND SAID, 27 THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT AROCLORS, CORRECT? 28 A CORRECT. HARTOLDMON0042057 3809 1 Q AND IN FEBRUARY, 1967 ST. LOUIS TELLS 2 WOOD, "WE WOULD LIKE TO KEEP IN THE BACKGROUND ON 3 THIS PROBLEM"? 4 A I WAS NOT AWARE OF THAT. 5 I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY CORRESPONDENCE WHICH 6 SAID THAT. 7 Q OKAY. AND IN FEBRUARY, 1967 ST. LOUIS 8 TELLS WOOD, "WE ARE PAYING PARTICULAR ATTENTION TO 9 NCR AS A CUSTOMER IN THIS MATTER." 10 A DID THEY? 11 I'M NOT AWARE OF THAT. 12 IS THERE CORRESPONDENCE WHICH SAYS THAT? 13 Q WELL, YES, THERE IS. . 14 WOULD YOU LIKE TO TAKE A LOOK AT IT? 15 A I WOULD, PLEASE, YES. 16 Q WHY DON'T WE LOOK AT EXHIBIT 37. 17 A SORRY? 18 Q 37 . 19 IT'S IN THE VERY FIRST VOLUME. 20 A IT SAYS A MEMO FROM DR. KELLY. 2 1 . IS THAT CORRECT? 22 Q YES? 2 3 A MAY I READ IT, PLEASE? 24 Q YES, PLEASE DO. 25 A I READ IT BUT I COULDN'T QUITE AGREE WITH 26 THE INFERENCES YOU DREW FROM THIS. 27 THE CONSENSUS IN ST. LOUIS IS THAT WHILE 28 MONSANTO WOULD LIKE TO STAY IN THE BACKGROUND WE HARTOLDMON0042058 3 810 1 DON'T SEE HOW WE WOULD BE ABLE TO DO SO, ET CETERA. 2 THAT DOESN'T SAY WE WOULD LIKE TO STAY IN THE 3 BACKGROUND, THAT IS THE END OF IT. 4 WE WOULD LIKE TO DO A LOT OF THINGS BUT 5 WE CAN'T. 6 Q WOULD YOU AGREE WITH ME ON PAGE 1 7 DR. KELLY SAYS TO MR. WOOD THAT "WE HAVE BEEN 8 RECEIVING QUITE A FEW COMMUNICATIONS FROM OUR 9 CUSTOMERS BUT THE MOST CRITICAL ONE IS NCR WHO WERE 10 VERY MUCH INVOLVED WITH THEIR CARBONLESS CARBON 11 PAPER"? 12 A THAT'S CORRECT. 13 IT IS IN THE MEMO. 14 Q IN FACT, AFTER FEBRUARY OF 1967 NOT A LOT 15 HAPPENS IN THE UNITED STATES IN THE PUBLIC SPHERE? 16 A MAYBE NOT IN THE PUBLIC SPHERE BUT 17 CERTAINLY WITHIN MONSANTO A LOT WAS HAPPENING. 18 Q IN FACT, IT'S PRETTY QUIET EXCEPT THAT IN 19 1967 AND 1968 SOME ADDITIONAL SCIENTISTS FILE REPORTS 20 LIKE IN THE UK SAYING, "WE ARE CONFIRMING WHAT 21 WIDMARK AND JENSEN HAVE DONE"? 22 A YES. 2 3 Q AND THE ISSUE FINALLY SURFACES IN THE 24 UNITED STATES IN THE PUBLIC PRESS IN THE SAN 25 FRANCISCO CHRONICLE IN FEBRUARY OF '69? 26 A I THINK THAT WAS IT, YES. 27 Q IN FACT, THAT PREDATES YOUR FIRST COUPLE 28 OF TRIPS TO THE UNITED STATES, BUT YOU CERTAINLY HARTOLDMON0042059 3811 1 HEARD ABOUT IT? 2 A YES, I HEARD ABOUT IT AND I THINK I SAW 3 THE ARTICLES. 4 Q AND WHAT THE SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE IS 5 REPORTING ON IS THE WORK OF DR. ROBERT RISEBROUGH WHO 6 FINDS PCB' S PRESENT IN THE ENVIRONMENT IN CALIFORNIA, 7 RIGHT? 8 A HE DOES. 9 Q AND THE PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT OF THAT 10 INFORMATION REALLY GETS THINGS TO MOVE? 11 THERE IS A LOT MORE ACTIVITY IN 12 MONSANTO. FOR EXAMPLE, THE AD HOC COMMITTEE IS 13 FORMED? 14 A YES . 15 Q AND IN FEBRUARY SCOTT TUCKER FOR THE 16 FIRST TIME RUNS ENVIRONMENTAL SAMPLES THROUGH HIS 17 EQUIPMENT AND CONFIRMS THAT PCB'S CAN BE FOUND IN THE 18 ENVIRONMENT, RIGHT? 19 A WAS THAT IN FEBRUARY? WAS THAT THE FIRST 20 TIME? 21 I STAND TO BE CORRECTED. I DON'T KNOW 22 WHEN BUT IT WOULD BE ROUND ABOUT THEN. 23 Q OKAY. THE ADHOCCOMMITTEE REPORTS TO 24 THE CMC IN NOVEMBER OF '69? 25 A YES . 26 Q WE HAVETALKED ABOUT THAT. 27 AND CMC SAYS, "DEVELOP A PLAN TO GET OUT 28 OF 1254 AND THE 1260," CORRECT? HARTOLDMON0042060 3812 1 A CORRECT. 2 Q BECAUSE THOSE WERE THE TWO COMPOUNDS WITH 3 THE MOST 5/6 CHLORINES IN THEM, RIGHT? 4 A LET'S GET THIS IN PERSPECTIVE. 5 IF YOU COMPARE IT WITH 1242, 1242 HAS A 6 VERY SMALL PERCENTAGE OF THE -- WE CAN'T CLASS THEM 7 ALL TOGETHER. 8 Q 1254 AND 1260 ARE PREDOMINANTLY 5/6 9 CHLORINES? 10 A THEY ARE. THAT IS CORRECT. 11 Q AND AROCLOR 1242 HAS 10 PERCENT 5/6? 12 A IT ALSO HAS A LARGE PART BIODEGRADABLE AS 13 WELL. 14 Q AND THE REST IS FOUR CHLORINES OR FEWER? 15 A CORRECT. 16 Q AT THAT SAME MEETING IN NOVEMBER OF 1969 17 CMC SAYS YOU HAVE TO STUDY 1242, RIGHT? 18 A YES . 19 Q BECAUSE THE CONCERN WAS THE 5/6 CHLORINES 20 THAT THEY WERE SEEING IN ENVIRONMENTAL SAMPLES COULD 21 JUST AS LIKELY BE 1242 AS IT WAS ON THE OTHER 22 PRODUCTS? 23 A THAT WAS THEPOSSIBILITY, YES. 24 Q AND WHY WOULD 1242 BE ACONCERN? 25 WELL, ONE CONCERN WOULD BE THAT NCR IS 26 USING 1242 IN ITS CARBONLESS CARBON PAPER AND 27 CARBONLESS CARBON PAPER PRETTY MUCH GOES EVERYWHERE? 28 A YES, THAT IS CORRECT. HARTOLDMON0042061 3813 1 THAT WOULD BE ONE CONCERN, I AGREE. 2 Q AND CARBONLESS CARBON PAPER WOULD GO INTO 3 LANDFILLS? 4 A YES. 5 Q AND ALL KINDS OF GARBAGE DUMPS AND 6 POSSIBLY STREAMS AND RIVERS? 7 A POSSIBLY. 8 RECYCLING WOULD BE MUCH MORE OF A 9 PROBLEM. 10 Q IN FACT, 1242 AT THAT TIME WAS THE 11 BIGGEST SELLING AROCLOR? 12 A IT IS, YEAH. 13 Q NOW, MR. PAPAGEORGE POINTED AT THAT 14 MEETING, OR RATHER THE POSITION IS CREATED AT THAT 15 MEETING AND HE TAKES HIS JOB SHORTLY THEREAFTER? 16 A YES . 17 Q HE DEVELOPS APLAN THAT WE HAVE LOOKED AT 18 FOR DEALING WITH THE PROBLEM, RIGHT? 19 A YES . 20 Q AND IT SAYS, "WE WANT TO STAY IN 1254 AND 21 1260. WE THINK THE ELECTRICAL INDUSTRY NEEDS IT"? 22 A WE DIDN'T ONLY THINK. 23 IT HAD BEEN IMPRESSED UPON US BY THE 24 ELECTRICAL INDUSTRY THAT THEY HAD TO HAVE THOSE 25 PRODUCTS AT THAT TIME. 26 I ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT DISCUSSIONS HAD 27 TAKEN PLACE WITH SOME OF THE AGENCIES ON THIS MATTER, 28 TOO . HARTOLDMON0042062 3814 1 Q DID YOU PERSONALLY MEET WITH THE GE 2 REPRESENTATIVES WHEN THEY CAME TO ST. LOUIS? 3 A I DID NOT MEET AT THAT TIME BUT I 4 PERSONALLY MET WITH SOME OF THE VICE-PRESIDENTS ON 5 OTHER OCCASIONS, LATER IN THE YEAR. 6 Q GE WAS A VERY BIG BUYER OF AROCLORS, 7 RIGHT? 8 A CERTAINLY, YES. 9 Q AND A VERY IMPORTANT CUSTOMER,THEREFORE? 10 A YES . 11 Q SO PERSONAL MEETINGS WEREARRANGED WITH 12 THEM AT WHICH THE ISSUE WAS DISCUSSED? 13 A CORRECT. ' 14 Q AND THEY RESISTED TAKING 1254 AND 1260 15 OFF THE MARKET, RIGHT? 16 A THEY CERTAINLY DID. 17 Q AND AS YOU SAID BEFORE, THAT WAS BECAUSE 18 THERE WASN'T ANYTHING ELSE THEY COULD USE FOR THE 19 SAME PURPOSE? 20 A NOT AT THAT TIME, NO. 21 Q BUT NO MEETING WAS ARRANGED WITH TEXAS 22 EASTERN OR TRANSWESTERN OR COLUMBIA GULF TO TALK 23 ABOUT WHETHER THERE WAS SOMETHING ELSE THEY COULD 24 USE, RIGHT? 25 A I UNDERSTAND THAT SEVERAL DISCUSSIONS HAD 26 TAKEN PLACE WITH THAT COMPANY ABOUT POSSIBLE 27 ALTERNATIVES. 28 Q NONE THAT YOU WORKED ON? HARTOLDMON0042063 3815 1 A I WAS NEVER THERE, NO, CERTAINLY NOT. 2 Q NOW, YOU DEVELOPED A SIX-POINT PLAN AS WE 3 HAVE SEEN, RIGHT? 4 A YES. 5 Q AND IT INCLUDED PHASING OUT HYDRAULIC 6 FLUIDS, RIGHT? 7 A CORRECT. 8 Q OKAY. AND THOSE HYDRAULIC FLUIDS WERE 9 BASICALLY MADE OF 1242, RIGHT? 10 A YES, THAT IS TRUE. 11 Q OKAY. AND AT SOME POINT IT BECOMES CLEAR 12. THAT TURBINOL IS A PRODUCT WITH 1242 IN IT, RIGHT? 13 A AT SOME POINT. 14 IT WAS ALWAYS KNOWN IT WAS PRODUCT WITH 15 1242 IN IT. 16 Q YOU DIDN'T SPECIFICALLY RAISE TURBINOL AT 17 ANY OF THE CMC MEETINGS WE HAVE DISCUSSED? 18 A I DON'T THINK SO. 19 I DON'T SEE ANY REASON WHY. 20 IT WAS A CLOSED APPLICATION TO THE BEST 21 OF MY KNOWLEDGE, AND A VERY SPECIALIZED ONE. 22 Q DID YOU TALK TO MR. PAPAGEORGE, AT ALL, 23 ABOUT THE FACT THAT TURBINOL WAS GETTING INTO THE GAS 24 PIPELINE? 25 A NO, I DON'T THINK I WAS AWARE OF THAT. 26 Q DID YOU TALK TO NORM JOHNSON, AT ALL, WHO 27 WAS THE SALES DIRECTOR ABOUT THE FACT THAT TURBINOL 28 WAS GETTING INTO THE GAS PIPELINE? HARTOLDMON0042064 3816 1 A I THINK I DO REMEMBER SOME DISCUSSIONS. 2 BUT AS FAR AS I KNOW, A COMPANY CONCERNED 3 HAD THE AVAILABILITY TO DEAL WITH THAT IN TRAPS. 4 Q IN TRAPS IN THE PIPELINE? 5 A AS FAR AS I UNDERSTAND IT. 6 Q YOU KNEW THAT MONSANTO WAS MONITORING THE 7 EFFLUENT IN ITS OWN PLANTS DOWN TO 10 PARTS PER 8 BILLION, RIGHT? 9 A YES . 10 Q DID YOU CONSIDER WHETHER IT WAS POSSIBLE 11 TO GET TURBINOL OUT OF THE PIPELINE DOWN TO 10 PARTS 12 PER BILLION IN A TRAP? 13 A I CAN'T SAY I DO BECAUSE I WAS NOT 14 SPECIFICALLY INVOLVED IN THE TECHNICAL ASPECTS OF 15 IT . 16 Q OKAY. SO YOU DIDN'T -- YOU DID KNOW THAT 17 TURBINOL COULD GET INTO THE PIPELINE? 18 A I HAD HEARD IT COULD, YES. 19 AS I UNDERSTOOD, IT COULD STILL BE 20 RETAINED AND REMOVED IN TRAPS. 2 1 Q BUT YOU WOULD LOOK TO THE BUSINESS PEOPLE 2 2 TO GIVE YOU THAT EXPLANATION? 23 A THE TECHNICAL PEOPLE, YES. 24 Q TECHNICAL PEOPLE. 25 WAS ONE OF THOSE DR. HATTON? 26 A YES, HATTON WAS A TECHNICAL PERSON. 27 Q AND HATTON WAS THE TECHNICAL GUY WHO 28 REALLY KNEW A LOT ABOUT THIS PRODUCT, RIGHT? HARTOLDMON0042065 3817 1 A YES, HE DID. 2 Q DID HATTON EVER TELL YOU HE WAS AWARE 3 THAT TURBINOL COULD GET INTO THE INSIDE OF A 4 PIPELINE? 5 A NOT TO ME, NO. 6 Q OKAY. NOW, IN 1970 THERE IS A LOT OF 7 INTEREST IN THE ENVIRONMENT, RIGHT? 8 A CORRECT. 9 Q FOR EXAMPLE, THE VERY FIRST EARTH DAY WAS 10 MAY 1ST, 1970, RIGHT? 11 A I BELIEVE SO, YES. 12 Q AND YOUR EXPERIENCE WITHCONGRESSMAN RYAN 13 AND THE OTHER GOVERNMENT PEOPLE YOU DEALT WITH WAS 14 THAT THEY WERE PUTTING INCREASING PRESSURE ON YOU TO 15 DEAL WITH THE PCB PROBLEM, RIGHT? 16 A THEY WERE PUTTING INCREASING PRESSURE, 17 MOST OF THEM, TO DISCLOSE MANUFACTURING FIGURES. 18 I DON'T THINK CONGRESSMAN RYAN PUT 19 PRESSURE ON US TO DEAL WITH THE PROBLEM. 20 ONE OF THE THINGS HE WANTED WAS EVERY 2 1 PRODUCT WHICH CONTAINED PCB'S TO BE LABELED. 22 THAT WAS COMPLETELY AN IMPOSSIBLE TASK. 23 Q IT WAS A COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE TASK TO 24 LABEL ALL OF THOSE PCB PRODUCTS? 25 A NO, NOT PCB PRODUCTS, PRODUCTS 26 MANUFACTURED ELSEWHERE WHICH CONTAINED PCB'S. 27 HE COULD HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT TENS OF 28 THOUSANDS. HARTOLDMON0042066 3818 1 THAT WAS HIS IDEA. 2 HE WANTED THAT DONE. 3 Q WHAT WAS THE IDEA, MR. MASON, BEHIND THE 4 HOLD HARMLESS AGREEMENT? 5 A YOU MEAN AFTER THE BOARD MEETING? 6 Q YES? 7 A. TO GIVE THE USERS AT THAT TIME, THE 8 ELECTRICAL INDUSTRY AND CERTAINLY AS FAR AS I'M 9 CONCERNED TEXAS EASTERN GAS, THE OPPORTUNITY TO FIND 10 SOME REPLACEMENT PRODUCTS AND TO PHASEOUT. 11 Q SO THE IDEA WAS, WE WILL CONTINUE TO SELL 12 TO YOU BUT IF WE DO SO TO GIVE YOU TIME TO FIND 13 ANOTHER PRODUCT - 14 A CORRECT. 15 Q -- YOU MUSTHOLD USHARMLESS? 16 A YES . 17 Q YOU MUST AGREE THAT LEGALLY YOU HAVE NO 18 CASE AGAINST US? 19 A YES. 2 0 Q AND, IN FACT, YOU KNOW THAT NO PURCHASER 2 1 OF TURBINOL EVER SIGNED SUCH A LETTER, RIGHT? 22 A NOT TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE. 23 REMEMBER, I LEFT THE UNITED STATES AT 24 THAT POINT IN TIME. 25 Q RIGHT. 26 A BUT TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, NO. 27 Q WELL, BEFORE YOU LEFT THE UNITED STATES 28 YOU WERE AWARE THAT THE PLAN WAS TO SELL OUT THE HARTOLDMON0042067 38 19 1 INVENTORY OF TURBINOL ON HAND AND HOPE THAT THE 2 CUSTOMER WOULD THEN SWITCH TO ANOTHER MONSANTO 3 PRODUCT? 4 A I DIDN'T -- THAT IS NOT THE WAY I 5 UNDERSTOOD IT. 6 THE WAY I UNDERSTOOD IT WAS GOING ON TO 7 FIND A REPLACEMENT PRODUCT WHICH COULD BE ADDED TO 8 THE SYSTEM AT THE PRESENT TIME WITHOUT TEXAS EASTERN 9 HAVING TO GO THROUGH THE DIFFICULTY AND EXPENSE OF 10 COMPLETELY DRAINING THE SYSTEM. 11 Q SO IN YOUR MIND THE PLAN WAS TO FIND A 12 PRODUCT WHICH COULD BE MIXED WITH THE TURBINOL AND 13 THEY COULD CONTINUE TO USE IT? 14 A YES . 15 Q OKAY. 16 MR. TALLON: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER. 17 THE COURT: REDIRECT, MR. PREUSS? 18 MR. PREUSS NO, YOUR HONOR, NO QUESTIONS. 19 THE COURT: MAY THIS WITNESS NOW BE EXCUSED? 20 MR. PREUSS: YES, SIR. 21 THE COURT: AND MR. TALLON? 22 MR. TALLON: YES, YOUR HONOR. 2 3 THE COURT: WE THANK YOU, SIR, FOR YOUR 24 ATTENDANCE AT THIS TRIAL. 25 YOU ARE EXCUSED FROM FURTHER ATTENDANCE. 26 A FURTHER WITNESS, MR. PREUSS? 27 MR. PREUSS: YES, YOUR HONOR. 28 MR. ZIMMER: YES, YOUR HONOR, MONSANTO WOULD HARTOLDMON0042068 3820 1 LIKE TO CALL MILTON SMID. 2 THE CLERK: RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND TO BE SWORN. 3 4 MILTON J. SMID, 5 CALLED AS A WITNESS BY THE DEFENDANT, MONSANTO, WAS 6 SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: 7 8 THE WITNESS: I DO. 9 THE CLERK: PLEASE, BE SEATED. 10 PLEASE STATE AND SPELL YOUR NAME FOR THE 11 RECORD. 12 THE WITNESS: MY NAME IS MILTON, M-I-L-T-O-N, 13 J., S-M-I-D, SMID. 14 THE COURT: MR. SMID, COULD I ASK YOU TO TAKE 15 THAT MICROPHONE AND SLIDE IT FORWARD. 16 KEEP YOUR CHAIR RELATIVELY CLOSE SO THE 17 MICROPHONE WILL TAKE UP YOUR VOICE. 18 WE WILL TAKE THE AFTERNOON BREAK AT FIVE 19 BEFORE THREE, JUST FOR YOUR PLANNING. 20 MR. ZIMMER: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. 21 22 DIRECT EXAMINATION 2 3 BY MR. ZIMMER: 24 Q GOOD AFTERNOON, MR. SMID. 25 A GOODS AFTERNOON. 26 Q HOW ARE YOU TODAY? 27 A FINE. 28 Q WOULD YOU TELL US WHERE YOU RESIDE. HARTOLDMON0042069 3821 1 A YES, I LIVE AT ST. LOUIS MISSOURI. 2 Q ARE YOU MARRIED? 3 A YES, I AM. 4 WE HAVE FIVE MARRIED CHILDREN AND 13 5 GRANDCHILDREN. 6 Q I'M SORRY TO TAKE YOU AWAY FROM THEM 7 DURING THE HOLIDAYS. 8 ARE YOU EMPLOYED, SIR? 9 A NO, I'M NOT. 10 I RETIRED IN 1991. 11 Q ALL RIGHT. WHERE DID YOU RETIRE FROM? 12 A FROM MONSANTO. 13 Q HOW DO YOU SPEND YOUR TIME NOW, SIR? 14 A WELL, I SPEND MY TIME PLAYING GOLF, 15 TRAVELING TO SEE MY GRANDCHILDREN, TROUT FISHING, 16 TYING FLIES FOR TROUT FISHING, WHITTLING WOOD AND 17 MAKING GLASS ORNAMENTS. 18 Q IT SOUNDS LIKE VISITING THE GRANDCHILDREN 19 ALONE WOULD TAKE A FAIR AMOUNT OF TIME? 20 A YES, IT DOES. 2 1 Q NOW, YOU WERE LAST EMPLOYED ATMONSANTO 22 IN WHAT CAPACITY, SIR? 23 A AS MANAGER OF PACKAGING,LABELING AND 24 MATERIALS HANDLING. 25 Q ALL RIGHT. AND WHERE WERE YOU PHYSICALLY 26 LOCATED AT THAT TIME? 27 A I WAS LOCATED IN THE GENERAL OFFICES AT 28 CREVCORE, MISSOURI, JUST OUTSIDE OF ST. LOUIS. HARTOLDMON0042070 3822 1 Q COULD YOU DESCRIBE FOR US, SIR, YOUR 2 EMPLOYMENT HISTORY AT MONSANTO. 3 WHAT WAS YOUR FIRST POSITION? 4 A MY FIRST JOB, WHEN I CAME OUT OF THE 5 SERVICE, WAS AT THE WILLIAM G. KRUMMRICH PLANT. I 6 WAS A MAINTENANCE ENGINEER. 7 Q WHEN WAS THAT? 8 A IN THAT JOB I WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR 9 ENGINEERING MAINTENANCE REPAIR JOBS AND SMALL 10 INSTALLATION PROJECTS, LINING UP THE KIND OF CRAFTS 11 THAT WERE REQUIRED AND THE EQUIPMENT AND MAKING 12 SKETCHES AND DRAWINGS. 13 Q WHEN DID YOU START THAT JOB? 14 A IN 1956. 15 Q AND YOU SAID THAT WAS WHEN YOU JUST GOT 16 OUT OF THE SERVICE? 17 A I JUST GOT OUT OF THE SERVICE. 18 Q IN WHAT BRANCH OF THE SERVICE WERE YOU? 19 A I WAS IN THE ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS. 20 Q HOW LONG WERE YOUIN THE SERVICE? 2 1 A I WAS IN FOR TWO YEARS, A COMPANY OFFICER 22 IN THE BASIC TRAINING UNIT AND THEN A COMPANY 2 3 COMMANDER IN A BASIC TRAINING UNIT AND FROM THERE I 24 MOVED ON TO POST SCHEDULING OFFICER WHERE I SCHEDULED 25 ALL OF THE BASIC TRAINING CLASSES, THE LOCATION, THE 26 TEACHERS, THE -- I DIDN'T DO IT PERSONALLY. 27 I HAD A GROUP THAT DID THAT. 28 Q NOW, IN 1956 YOU SAID YOU WERE WORKING AT HARTOLDMON0042071 3823 i 1 THE KRUMMRICH PLANT; IS THAT RIGHT? 2 A THAT'S CORRECT. 3 Q WHERE IS THE KRUMMRICH PLANT? 4 A THE KRUMMRICH PLANT IS LOCATED IN SAUGET, 5 ILLINOIS WHICH IS ACROSS THE RIVER FROM ST. LOUIS, 6 JUST SOUTH OF DOWNTOWN, I WOULD SAY A COUPLE OF MILES 7 SOUTH. 8 Q COULD YOU TELL THE JURY, SIR, WHAT YOU 9 NEXT DID FOR MONSANTO? 10 A AT ABOUT 1960 I WAS PROMOTED TO MATERIALS 11 HANDLING ENGINEER, MATERIALS HANDLING SPECIALIST. I 12 DON'T RECALL THE TITLE SPECIFICALLY. AT THE 13 KRUMMRICH PLANT. 14 Q WHAT DID YOU DO AS A MATERIALS HANDLING 15 ENGINEER? 16 A THAT JOB I HELPED DEPARTMENTS OR 17 PEOPLE SELECT OR DESIGN PACKAGES. 18 I COORDINATED THE PACKAGES WITH THE 19 GENERAL OFFICES. 20 I COORDINATED ALL THE LABELING EFFORTS OF 21 THE PLANT WITH THE GENERAL OFFICES. 22 IN OTHER WORDS, IF WE HAD A NEED AT THE 23 PLANT, I WOULD COMMUNICATE THAT TO THE GENERAL 24 OFFICES AND VICE VERSA IF THEY HAD ONE. 25 THE COURT: SIR, YOUR VOICE IS DROPPING. 26 THE WITNESS: THEY COMMUNICATED THAT BACK TO 27 ME . 28 SO I ALSO DID A LOT OF WORK IN THE WAY OF HARTOLDMON0042072 3824 1 RECOMMENDING MATERIALS HANDLING SYSTEMS FOR FILLING 2 PACKAGES AND HOW TO LOAD THEM IN THE CARS AND TRUCKS 3 AND HOW TO BRACE THEM, THAT SORT OF THING. 4 Q BY MR. ZIMMER: WERE AROCLOR PRODUCTS 5 MANUFACTURED AT THE KRUMMRICH FACILITY IN THE 1960 6 TIME FRAME? 7 A YES, THEY WERE. 8 Q AND HOW LONG DID YOU STAY IN THAT 9 POSITION AS MATERIALS HANDLING? 10 A ABOUT SIX YEARS, UNTIL 1966. 11 Q AND THEN WHAT POSITION DID YOU TAKE ON IN 12 1966? 13 A IN 1966 I WAS PROMOTED TO SUPERINTENDENT 14 OF MATERIALS HANDLING AT THE J.F. QUEENY PLANT IN 15 ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI. 16 Q AND WHERE IS THE J.F. QUEENY PLANT 17 LOCATED IN ST. LOUIS? 18 A AGAIN, IT'S CLOSE TO THE RIVER. 19 IT'S ON SOUTH SECOND STREET IN ST. LOUIS, 20 VERY CLOSE TO DOWNTOWN. 2 1 AND SECOND STREET IS TWO STREETS FROM THE 22 RIVER. 23 THERE WAS A RAILROAD YARD IN BETWEEN. SO 24 IT WAS HALF A MILE FROM THE RIVER, THE MISSISSIPPI 25 RIVER. 26 Q WHAT DID YOU DO AT THE J.F. QUEENY PLANT 27 BEGINNING IN 1966? 2 8 A I WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE PEOPLE THAT HARTOLDMON0042073 3825 1 HANDLED ALL OF THE WAREHOUSING. THEY HANDLE ALL OF 2 THE MATERIAL THAT WENT IN AND OUT OF THE VARIOUS 3 DEPARTMENTS, THE FINISHED GOODS, EMPTY PACKAGES AND 4 FILLED PACKAGES. 5 I WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE PEOPLE THAT 6 ORDERED THE EMPTY PACKAGES AND THE RAW MATERIALS THAT 7 PLACED THE ORDER, COORDINATED THEM IN. 8 I WAS ALSO RESPONSIBLE FOR THE PERSONS 9 THAT HANDLED THE LABELING COORDINATION, SIMILAR TO 10 WHAT I DID AT THE KRUMMRICH PLANT. 11 THE QUEENY PLANT FUNCTION, THAT WAS A 12 LITTLE BIT MORE INVOLVED. 13 Q WAS YOUR TITLE THE SAME AT QUEENY AS IT 14 HAD BEEN AT KRUMMRICH? 15 A NO, MY TITLE WAS MATERIALS HANDLING 16 SPECIALIST AT THE KRUMMRICH PLANT. 17 BUT AT THE QUEENY PLANT I WAS PROMOTED TO 18 SUPERINTENDENT. 19 ANOTHER FUNCTION THAT I HAD IN ADDITION 20 TO THOSE WAS I WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR A MANUFACTURING 2 1 AREA WHICH WAS CALLED CENTRAL DRUMMING OR CENTRAL 2 2 LIQUIDS HANDLING, WHICHEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT. 23 THERE WE RECEIVED MANY MATERIALS FROM 24 VARIOUS DEPARTMENTS IN THE PLANT AS WELL AS MATERIALS 25 THAT WERE BROUGHT IN FROM OTHER MONSANTO LOCATIONS 26 AND SOME THAT WERE PURCHASED. 27 AND WE WOULD BLEND THEM TO MAKE FINISHED 28 PRODUCTS. HARTOLDMON0042074 3826 1 AND WE WOULD EITHER SHIP THEM IN BULK OR 2 WE WOULD SHIP THEM IN 55-GALLON DRUMS OR FIVE-GALLON 3 CANS. 4 Q ALL RIGHT. SIR, HOW LONG DID YOU STAY IN 5 YOUR POSITION AS SUPERINTENDENT AT THE QUEENY ' PLANT? 6 A FOR ABOUT TEN YEARS. 7 Q ALL RIGHT. AND WHAT WAS YOUR NEXT 8 POSITION WITHIN MONSANTO? 9 A MY NEXT POSITION WAS RAIL EQUIPMENT 10 SPECIALIST. 11 BEING IN MATERIALS HANDLING I ALSO HAD 12 THE RAILROAD RESPONSIBILITIES AT BOTH PLANTS. 13 SO I HANDLED THE REPAIRS OF RAIL 14 EQUIPMENT AND I ALSO CONDUCTED CLASSES ON HOW TO 15 INSPECT RAIL CARS FOR SAFETY FOR CRACKS IN BOLSTERS, 16 THAT SORT OF THING. 17 I DID THAT FOR ONE YEAR. 18 Q WHAT DID YOU DO AFTER THAT? 19 A THEN I BECAME PROMOTED AGAIN TO PACKAGING 20 MANAGER FOR THE CORPORATION. 2 1 Q AND WHAT DID THAT JOB ENTAIL? 22 A THAT ENTAILED ASSURING THAT ALL PACKAGES 2 3 WERE IN COMPLIANCE WITH REGULATIONS, WHATEVER THEY 24 MIGHT BE AND TARIFFS WHICH ARE TYPES OF REGULATIONS 25 PUT OUT BY THE VARIOUS SHIPPING COMPANIES. 2 6 I ALSO RECOMMENDED IMPROVED PACKAGING FOR 27 THE -- FOR ALL OF THE PLANTS IN MONSANTO. 28 I DID, NOT PERSONALLY, ALONE, ALL OF HARTO L D MO NO042075 3827 1 THEM. I HAD PEOPLE, ENGINEERS THAT WORKED FOR ME. 2 WE ASSISTED IN THE TESTING. WE ASSISTED 3 IN GETTING EXEMPTIONS FROM STANDING PACKING FROM THE 4 D.O.T. IF THEY WERE NEEDED BECAUSE WE HAD AN 5 INNOVATION THAT WE THOUGHT WAS BETTER. 6 Q WHAT IS THE D.O.T., SIR? 7 A DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION, THE UNITED 8 STATES DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION. 9 Q DID THE JOB YOU ARE DESCRIBING FOR US 10 INVOLVE LABELING RESPONSIBILITIES? 11 A NOT DIRECTLY. 12 I -- THE LABELING WAS ONLY A PART OF - 13 FOR EXAMPLE, A BAG, LIKE YOU SEE A.BAG OF FERTILIZER 14 HAS PRINTING ON IT. THAT IS THE LABEL ON THE BAG. 15 SO FROM THAT STANDPOINT IT INVOLVED THAT 16 BUT NOT DIRECTLY ANY LABEL DESIGNS OR ANYTHING LIKE 17 THAT . 18 Q OKAY. DID YOU HOLD ANY OTHERPOSITIONS 19 AT MONSANTO BEFORE YOU RETIRED? 2 0 A ONE OF THE THINGS I WANT TO SAY IN THAT 2 1 POSITION. I ALSO WAS PART OF A NATIONAL COMMITTEE 22 CALLED PACKAGING INSTITUTE U.S.A. 23 AND I WAS IN THE CHEMICAL PACKAGING 24 COMMITTEE OF THAT. 25 WE HAD A LOT OF EXPERTISE WITHIN THAT 2 6 COMMITTEE AS FAR AS PACKAGING WAS CONCERNED AND 27 LABELING FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION, 28 DIFFERENT KIND OF LABELING REQUIREMENTS. HARTOLDMON0042076 3828 1 IN FACT I WAS THE CHAIRMAN OF THAT 2 ORGANIZATION UNTIL THE TIME I MOVED TO THE LABELING 3 DEPARTMENT IN 1982. 4 Q AND THAT WAS DURING YOUR TENURE AS - 5 A AS PACKAGING MANAGER. 6 THEN I BECAME -- THEN AFTER THAT I BECAME 7 LABELING MANAGER FOR MONSANTO. 8 Q SO THE LABELING MANAGER FOR MONSANTO WAS 9 THE NEXT POSITION YOU HAD AFTER PACKAGING MANAGER? 10 A YES, UH-HUH. 11 Q TRY,. SIR, TO WAIT UNTIL I'M FINISHED WITH 12 MY QUESTION. 13 IT WILL MAKE THE COURT REPORTER'S LIFE A 14 LOT EASIER. AND SAVE US ALL SOME TIME. 15 THANK YOU. 16 I KNOW IT'S DIFFICULT TO SIT UP THERE. 17 NOW, AFTER YOU WERE LABELING MANAGER DID 18 YOU THEN RETIRE OR DID YOU HOLD ANY OTHER POSITIONS 19 WITHIN MONSANTO? 20 A NO. 2 1 MY NEXT POSITION WAS MANAGER OF 22 PACKAGING, LABELING AND MATERIALS HANDLING. 2 3 Q HOW DID THAT DIFFER FROM WHAT YOU HAD 24 BEEN DOING JUST BEFORE THAT? 25 A HE HAD ALL OF THEFUNCTIONS. 26 HE HAD THE PACKAGING, DESIGN PEOPLE. 27 I HAD THE LABELING AND THE MATERIALS 28 HANDLING ENGINEERS, ALL OF THOSE REPORTING TO ME. HARTOLDMON0042077 3829 1 Q NOW, DOES THAT TAKE US UP TO ABOUT 1991 2 WHEN YOU RETIRED? 3 A YES, THAT'S CORRECT. 4 Q OKAY. LET'S FOCUS ON YOUR JOB 5 RESPONSIBILITIES BETWEEN 1966 AND 1975 AT THE QUEENY 6 PLANT. 7 AND YOUR TITLE, AGAIN, SIR, DURING THAT 8 PERIOD? 9 A SUPERINTENDENT OF MATERIALS HANDLING. 10 Q AND IS THE QUEENY PLANT A PLANT AND A 11 WAREHOUSE? 12 A THE QUEENY PLANT HAD WAREHOUSES WITHIN 13 THE PLANT THAT WAREHOUSE THE MATERIALS, THE RAW 14 MATERIALS BEFORE THEY WERE USED AT THE DEPARTMENT AND 15 FINISHED PRODUCT BEFORE IT WAS SHIPPED TO CUSTOMERS. 16 WE HAD OUR OWN WAREHOUSES WITHIN IT. 17 Q YOU MENTIONED BLENDING EARLIER IN PART OF 18 YOUR ANSWER. 19 WHAT BLENDING WAS DONE AT THE QUEENY 20 PLANT BETWEEN 19, SAY, '68 AND '72? 21 A WE BLENDED SEVERAL FAMILIES OF PRODUCTS. 22 WE BLENDED PLASTICIZERS WHICH WERE 2 3 PRODUCTS WHICH WENT INTO, LIKE, WIRE COATINGS AND 24 FURNITURE AND AUTOMOBILE PARTS. 25 WE BLENDED SKYDROL PRODUCTS WHICH WERE 26 HYDRAULIC FLUIDS FOR AIRPLANES, STILL USED RIGHT 27 NOW. 28 WE BLENDED PYDRAUL PRODUCTS WHICH WERE HARTOLDMON0042078 3830 1 HYDRAULIC PRODUCTS. 2 WE ALSO BLENDED A TURBINOL PRODUCT WHICH 3 WAS USED FOR LUBRICATING TURBINES. 4 WE HAD ANOTHER SPECIALITY FAMILY OF 5 PRODUCTS WHICH WERE CALLED COOLINOLS. 6 THEY WERE USED FOR MISSILE GUIDANCE 7 SYSTEMS, NASA CAPSULES, THAT SORT OF THING. 8 Q DID YOU BLEND THERMINOL PRODUCTS? 9 A NO, WE DIDN'T. 10 Q WERE AROCLORS COMPONENTS OF ALL OF THE 11 FAMILIES OF PRODUCTS THAT YOU JUSTMENTIONED? 12 A NO, THEY WEREN'T. 13 AROCLORS WERE ONLY PART OF THE PYDRAUL 14 PRODUCTS AND THE TURBINOL. 15 Q NOW, DURING THAT TIME FRAME THAT I JUST 16 MENTIONED, '68 TO '72, WHERE DID THE COMPONENT PARTS 17 THAT WERE BLENDED COME FROM WHEN YOU BLENDED PRODUCTS 18 AT THE QUEENY PLANT? 19 A THEY CAME FROM WITHIN THE PLANT. 20 THEY WERE MANUFACTURED BY SOME OF THE 21 DEPARTMENTS WITHIN THE PLANT. 22 THEY CAME FROM THE KRUMMRICH PLANT. THEY 2 3 CAME FROM TEXAS CITY. . 24 THEY CAME FROM CHOCOLATE BAYOU. 25 THEY CAME FROM BRIDGEPORT, NEW JERSEY. 26 Q LOTS OF DIFFERENT PLACES? 27 A MANY PLACES. 28 I CAN'T RECALL ALL OF THEM. HARTOLDMON0042079 3831 1 Q YOU MENTIONED BLENDING TURBINOL BETWEEN 2 1968 AND 1972 AT QUEENY, CORRECT? 3 A YES . 4 Q TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, WAS TURBINOL BLENDED 5 AT ANY OTHER MONSANTO FACILITY BETWEEN 1968 AND 1972? 6 A NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE. 7 Q DID TURBINOL CONTAINAROCLORS? 8 A YES, IT DID. 9 Q AND YOU MENTIONED THAT SOME OF THE OTHER 10 FAMILY OF PRODUCTS ALSO CONTAINED AROCLORS? 11 A YES. 12 Q WHICH ONES DO YOU RECALL THAT WERE 13 BLENDED AT QUEENY DURING THAT TIME PERIOD CONTAINED 14 AROCLORS? 15 A SOME OF THE PYDRAULS THAT WE BLENDED 16 CONTAINED AROCLORS DURING THAT TIME PERIOD. SOME OF 17 THEM DID NOT. 18 Q NOW, SIR, AS PART OF YOUR JOB IN THE '68 19 TO '72 TIME PERIOD, WERE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE 2 0 PACKAGING OF LABELING PRACTICES THAT WERE FULFILLED 21 AT THE QUEENY PLANT? 22 A YES, I WAS VERY FAMILIAR WITH THEM, 23 PARTICULARLY IN MY AREA OF RESPONSIBILITY. 24 BUT THEY WERE -- OVERALL I WAS -- I HAD 25 PEOPLE THAT DID THE COORDINATION OF IT FOR THE WHOLE 26 PLANT SO THAT I WAS VERY FAMILIAR WITH IT. 27 Q DURING THE BLENDING OPERATION AND THEN 28 THE DRUM FILLING FOR A PRODUCT LIKE TURBINOL AT HARTOLDMON0042080 3832 1 QUEENY, WHERE WOULD THAT TAKE PLACE? 2 A THE TURBINOL WAS DRUMMED AT CENTRAL 3 DRUMMING OR WE HAD A FAIRLY SOPHISTICATED SYSTEM FOR 4 DRUMMING. 5 PRODUCT WOULD BE MADE UP IN A BLEND TANK 6 AND IT WOULD -- WE WOULD EMPTY DRUMS STORED UP ABOVE 7 ON LONG CONVEYORS. 8 THE OPERATOR WOULD CALL FOR HOW MANY 9 DRUMS OF WHAT TYPE HE WANTED. 10 WE HAD MORE THAN ONE TYPE OF DRUM. 11 DIFFERENT PRODUCTS REQUIRED DIFFERENT 12 DRUMS. 13 Q LET ME STOP YOU THERE FOR A MINUTE THEN 14 AND ASK YOU WHAT TYPE OF DRUM WAS USED DURING THIS 15 TIME PERIOD WE ARE TALKING ABOUT FOR TURBINOL. 16 A IT WAS A 55-GALLON DRUM. 17 Q DO YOU KNOW WHAT IT WAS MADE OF? 18 A IT WAS MADE OF STEEL. 19 Q AND WHAT COLOR WAS IT? 20 A TO THE BEST OF MY RECOLLECTION THE HEADS 2 1 WERE WHITE AND IT WOULD HAVE TWO WHITE M'S ON THE 22 SIDES. 2 3 Q AND WHAT COLOR WAS THE DRUM ITSELF? 24 A THE DRUM WAS BLACK. 25 THE DRUM WAS A HEAVY-GAUGED DRUM BECAUSE 26 OF THE WEIGHT OF THE TURBINOL. IT WAS A HEAVY 27 PRODUCT. 28 Q HEAVY GAUGE OF WHAT MATERIAL? HARTO L D M 6 NO042081 3833 1 A HEAVY GAUGE. 2 IT WAS A THICK METAL. 3 WE HAD MORE THAN ONE THICKNESS 4 AVAILABLE. 5 Q AND YOU, SIR, HAVE OBSERVED DRUMS OF 6 TURBINOL AND OTHER AROCLOR-CONTAINING PRODUCTS FILLED 7 AT THE QUEENY PLANT? 8 MS. GRADY: COMPOUND. 9 THE COURT: OVERRULED. 10 YOU MAY ANSWER. 11 THE WITNESS: I WOULD SAY THAT DURING THE 12 COURSE OF MY TIME THERE THAT I OBSERVED ALL PRODUCTS 13 BEING DRUMMED OR HANDLED. 14 BUT I SPENT EVERY DAY IN AND OUT OF THE 15 DEPARTMENT. BUT I CAN'T SAY SPECIFICALLY THAT ANY 16 ONE PRODUCT, I JUST CAN'T REMEMBER THAT. 17 Q ` WHY DON'T YOU GO ON TO DESCRIBE FOR US 18 WHAT THE OPERATORS WOULD DO AT THE CENTRAL DRUMMING 19 STATION WHEN FILLING. 20 A THEY WOULD GET THEIR DRUMS DELIVERED. 2 1 THEY WOULD COME DOWN ON A LITTLE ELEVATOR 22 AND ACCUMULATE THEM. 23 THEN AFTER THEY HAD THEIR DRUMS SET UP 24 THEY WOULD TAKE A BUNG FITTING, WHICH WAS THE 2 5 APPROPRIATE ONE FOR THAT PRODUCT, AND A COVER AND A 26 LABEL AND START A FIRST DRUM. 27 AND THEN GENERALLY THEY WOULD LABEL THE 28 FIRST DRUM. HARTOLDMON0042082 3834 1 THE LABEL, BY THE WAY, ALREADY HAD A LOT 2 NUMBER STAMPED ON IT. 3 Q AND WHAT IS A LOT NUMBER? 4 A A LOT NUMBER WAS AN IDENTIFICATION NUMBER 5 FOR THAT PARTICULAR PRODUCT THAT WAS MADE THAT DAY. 6 THAT LOT WAS SAMPLED AND THE SAMPLES WERE 7 TESTED AND PART OF THEM WERE RETAINED FOR REFERENCE 8 IN THE EVENT SOMETHING WAS NOT RIGHT OR WHATEVER OF 9 THAT PRODUCT, IF IT DEGRADED, FOR SOME REASON, OUT IN 10 SERVICE, WHATEVER. 11 Q WAS A PRODUCT LIKE TURBINOL MADE EVERY 12 DAY? 13 A EXCUSE ME? 14 Q WAS A PRODUCT LIKE TURBINOL MADE EVERY 15 DAY ON A CONTINUING BASIS? 16 A NO, TURBINOL WAS NOT MADE EVERY DAY. 17 IT WAS PROBABLY NOT MADE ONCE A MONTH. 18 I WOULD GUESS THAT BECAUSE IT WAS NOT A 19 HIGH-VOLUME PRODUCT FOR US. 20 BUT HE WOULD GO ON AND HE WOULD STAMP 2 1 THAT SAME LOT NUMBER ON THE LID. 22 HE WOULD DO IT WITH A SMALL HALF-INCH OR 2 3 A SMALLER STAMP. THE LOT NUMBER WOULD BE LIKE A 24 COUPLE OF LETTERS AND A NUMBER. 2 5 THEN HE WOULD PUSH A BUTTON WHICH WOULD 26 LOWER THE LANCE DOWN INTO THE DRUM AND IT WOULD FILL 27 IT TO A CERTAIN WEIGHT. 28 AFTER IT WAS FILLED, HE WOULD -- THE HARTOLDMON0042083 3835 1 LANCE CAME OUT AND HE WOULD PUT A BUNG IN LOOSELY, 2 MOVE IT OVER AND START ANOTHER DRUM. 3 NOW, WHILE THAT WAS GOING ON, WHILE THAT 4 DRUM WAS FILLING, HE WOULD BE APPLYING A LABEL TO THE 5 NEXT DRUM AND PUTTING THE FITTINGS ON THE TOP. 6 NOW, THE FITTINGS HAD TO BE ON TOP 7 BECAUSE THEY WERE PART OF THE GROSS WEIGHT OF THE 8 DRUM. SO YOU COULDN'T JUST HAVE THE DRUM SITTING 9 THERE. IT WOULD BE OFF BY THE WEIGHT OF THOSE TWO 10 PIECES. 11 SO THE BUNG, THE BUNG FITTING IS THE 12 FITTING THAT GOES IN, CAPS OFF THE WHOLE WHERE YOU 13 ARE FILLING THROUGH. 14 Q WHAT IS THE BUNG? 15 A THE BUNG IS THE WHOLE IN THE DRUM THAT IS 16 THREADED, GENERALLY, THAT YOU FILL THROUGH OR TAKE 17 OUT . 18 IT HAS A THREADED FITTING. 19 AND THAT FITTING HAS A GASKET ON IT AND 20 THAT GASKET HAS TO BE COMPATIBLE WITH THE PRODUCT. 2 1 THAT IS WHY YOU HAD TO PICK THE RIGHT 22 BUNG FITTING FOR THE RIGHT DRUM PLUS SOME OF THE 2 3 DRUMS WERE LINED AND THEN YOU HAD TO HAVE A LINE 24 FITTING. 25 Q OKAY. LET'S TALK ABOUT THE LABELING PART 26 OF WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN DESCRIBING. 27 WHERE WERE LABELS FOR PRODUCTS LIKE THIS 28 STORED? HARTOL D M ON6042084 3836 1 A THE LABELS FOR ALL PRODUCTS THAT WERE 2 MADE AT CENTRAL DRUMMING, THERE WAS A -- IN THE ROOM 3 WHERE THE DRUMMING WAS PERFORMED THERE WAS A SET OF 4 BINS UP AGAINST THE WALL AND EACH BIN WAS MARKED WITH 5 WHAT LABEL FIT IN THAT. 6 NOW, THERE WAS A BACKUP, A LARGE 7 INVENTORY OF LABELS IN ANOTHER BUILDING THAT WAS - 8 WHICH WAS LABELED "STORAGE." ALL THE DIFFERENT 9 LABELS FOR THE PLANT WERE IN THAT BUILDING. BUT THIS 10 JUST HAD THE LABELS FOR CENTRAL DRUMMING. 11 Q WHY WAS LABELING IMPORTANT? 12 A LABELING WAS IMPORTANT. WE COULDN'T 13 OPERATE WITHOUT IT. 14 FIRST OF ALL IT WAS A COMPANY RULE YOU 15 HAD TO HAVE A LABEL ON IT. 16 SECONDLY, THE ONLY WAY YOU COULD IDENTIFY 17 WHAT WAS IN THE MATERIAL WAS TO LABEL IT. 18 THE ONLY EXCEPTION TO THAT WAS GOVERNMENT 19 OLIVE DRAB DRUMS, WHEN WE HAD A GOVERNMENT ORDER THEY 20 REQUIRED ABOUT 16 LINES OF WRITING ON THERE. 2 1 WELL, WE WOULD GET ALL OF THE WRITING 22 APPROVED WITH THE EXCEPTION OF, SAY, ONE NUMBER OR 23 LETTER THAT THE GOVERNMENT WANTED CHANGED, THE 24 MILITARY WANTED CHANGED, LIKE A SEQUENTIAL NUMBER OR 25 WHATEVER THEY MIGHT WANT OR PART OF THE LOT NUMBER. 26 THEY WOULD APPROVE IT ALL. 27 WE WOULD HAVE THE DRUM, PURCHASE THE DRUM 28 IN AN OLIVE DRAB COLOR, PRE-PRINTED EXCEPT FOR THAT HARTOLDMON0042085 3837 1 LINE. . 2 I WOULD GET PERMISSION FROM THE 3 GOVERNMENT TO USE A PERMANENT MARKER AND MARK THAT 4 NUMBER IN. 5 BECAUSE THE PERSON THAT WAS FILLING THE 6 DRUMS COULD NOT STENCIL. WE DIDN'T -- AT THE QUEENY 7 PLANT, THE UNION RULES WERE THAT OPERATORS DID NOT 8 STENCIL AT CENTRAL DRUMMING SO THEY DID NOT STENCIL. 9 Q SIR, LET ME BACK YOU UP ONE MOMENT. 10 YOU MENTIONED THAT THESE GOVERNMENT 11 OLIVE-DRAB COLORED DRUMS WERE AN EXCEPTION TO 12 SOMETHING. 13 WHAT WERE THEY AN EXCEPTION TO? 14 A EXCEPTIONS TO OUR REGULAR LABELING 15 PRACTICE AND WITH OUR LOGO THEY WOULDN'T ALLOW THE 16 LOGO . 17 THEY WOULDN'T ALLOW -- THEY HAD THEIR OWN 18 IDENTIFICATION AND THEY WERE -- THEIR CONTRACTS WERE 19 VERY SPECIFIC AS TO HOW YOU HAD TO SATISFY THAT. 20 AS A MATTER OF FACT, THEY WERE SO 2 1 DIFFICULT TO DO THAT WE WOULD HAVE THE INSPECTOR 22 APPROVE IT BEFORE WE PRINTED THEM UP. 23 Q HOW WERE YOU INFORMED OF THE REGULAR 24 COMPANY LABELING PRACTICES FOR PRODUCTS BLENDED AT 25 QUEENY? 26 A I WAS INFORMED VARIOUS WAYS. 27 I EITHER -- FROM -- YOU MEAN THE 28 PRACTICES WHERE A LOT OF THEM WERE PART OF LIKE A HARTOLDMON0042086 3838 1 BULLETIN THAT WAS PUT OUT BY THE LABELING DEPARTMENT. 2 WE HAD PLANT STANDARDS FOR LABELING. 3 WE HAD -- I MEAN, IT WAS PART OF 4 EVERY-DAY LIFE. BECAUSE THE DRUMS AFTER THEY WERE 5 PACKAGED, THEY LEFT THE PACKING AREA. THEY WENT TO A 6 PALLETIZER. THAT MACHINE PUT FOUR DRUMS ON A 7 PALLET. THEY NO LONGER BELONGED TO THAT DEPARTMENT, 8 TO THE DRUMMING DEPARTMENT. THEY BECAME A WAREHOUSE 1 9 MATERIAL. 10 AND THE WAREHOUSEMAN WOULD MOVE THEM INTO 11 THE WAREHOUSE AND STACK THEM FIVE HIGH, WHICH IS 12 ABOUT 15 FEET. 13 SO THE ONLY WAY YOU COULD IDENTIFY WHAT 14 WAS IN THAT STACK WOULD BE TO READ THE LABEL. 15 ALL OF OUR LABELS COULD BE READ FROM A 16 SUBSTANTIAL DISTANCE. 17 ' WE USED TO TEST THEM THAT WAY TO MAKE 18 SURE WE COULD READ THE PRODUCT AND THE NET WEIGHT AND 19 THAT SORT OF THING. 20 AND IF IT HAD A GRADE, WE WOULD BE ABLE 21 TO IDENTIFY IT AT A DISTANCE. IN CASE SOMEBODY HAD 22 EYES LIKE I DO AND DIDN'T WEAR THEIR GLASSES. 2 3 THE COURT: MR. ZIMMER, WE WILL TAKE THE 24 AFTERNOON BREAK AT THIS POINT. 25 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE WILL RESUME AT 26 10 MINUTES AFTER THREE SO PLEASE RETURN JUST BEFORE 27 THEN SO WE CAN RESUME AT 10 MINUTES AFTER THREE. 28 THANK YOU. HARTOLDMON0042087 3839 1 (RECESS.) 2 THE COURT: AND RESUMING. 3 GO AHEAD, MR. ZIMMER. 4 MR. ZIMMER: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. 5 Q SIR, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT LABELING AT 6 THE QUEENY PLANT BEFORE THE BREAK. 7 I WANTED TO ASK YOU IF THERE WERE ANY 8 REQUIREMENTS BY OUTSIDE AGENCIES, WHEN I SAY 9 "OUTSIDE" I MEAN OUTSIDE OF MONSANTO, THAT MANDATED 10 LABELS ON PRODUCTS? 11 A PRODUCTS HAD TO BE PROPERLY IDENTIFIED 12 AND AS FAR AS I WAS CONCERNED LABELED BY REQUIREMENTS 13 OF THE VARIOUS SHIPPING ORGANIZATIONS LIKE THE 14 AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF RAILROAD AND THEIR TARIFFS 15 WOULD SPELL THAT OUT. 16 AND THE NATIONAL MOTOR FREIGHT COUNSEL 17 WOULD ALSO HAVE REQUIREMENTS. 18 A CARRIER WOULDN'T ACCEPT A PACKAGE OF 19 CHEMICALS THAT WASN'T PROPERLY MARKED. 20 Q HOW DID YOU BECOME AWARE OF THOSE 21 REQUIREMENTS? 22 A WE HAD, AS PART OF OUR -- WE HAD AS PART 23 OF THE ORGANIZATION WE HAD TRAFFIC PEOPLE THAT WERE 24 RESPONSIBLE FOR COMMUNICATING THOSE REQUIREMENTS AND 25 KEEPING UP WITH THE VARIOUS TARIFFS. 26 AND THOSE SORTS OF REQUIREMENTS BECAME 27 PART OF OUR, YOU KNOW, WHEN I DID MY JOB LATER ON, 28 THEN I KNEW WHERE ALL THE DATA WOULD COME FROM. HARTOLDMON0042088 3840 1 WHEN I WAS AT THE PLANT, I JUST DID WHAT 2 I WAS TOLD TO DO. WE DID IT THAT WAY. THAT WAS OUR 3 POLICY. 4 Q DID YOU ENFORCE THAT POLICY? 5 A YES, I DID. 6 Q NOW, YOU MENTIONED STENCILING EARLIER. 7 I WANTED TO ASK YOU, WAS STENCILING TO 8 YOUR KNOWLEDGE EVER DONE AT THE QUEENY PLANT? 9 A STENCILING, IF A CUSTOMER IN HIS SPECIAL 10 SHIPPING INSTRUCTIONS REQUIRED A CODE NUMBER OR 11 SOMETHING OF THAT SORT FOR A PRODUCT CODE, LET'S SAY 12 HE BOUGHT MORE THAN ONE TYPE OF MATERIAL AND HE 13 BOUGHT FROM MORE THAN ONE VENDOR, THEN HE MIGHT 14 REQUIRE A CODE NUMBER TO BE STENCILED SOMEWHERE 15 LIKE -- AND THAT WOULD BE DONE BY THE PERSON IN 16 CHARGE OF SHIPPING. 17 THAT WAS IN ADDITION TO ANY MARKINGS THAT 18 WERE ALREADY ON THERE. 19 IT WOULD BE DONE BY A SHIPPING PERSON. 20 THEY WERE THE ONES THAT WERE ALLOWED TO 2 1 STENCIL. 22 Q BETWEEN '68 AND '72 WAS STENCILING EVER 23 DONE AT THE CENTRAL DRUMMING.LOCATION FOR TURBINOL, 24 TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE? 25 A NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE. 26 Q OKAY. NOW, SIR, HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF A 27 PRODUCT CALLED MCS-153? 28 A YES . HARTOLDMON0042089 3841 1 Q IS THAT THE SAME THING AS TURBINOL? 2 A IT'S THE PREDECESSOR TO IT. 3 WE WENT THROUGH MANY -- MANY PRODUCTS 4 WENT THROUGH THE MCS SERIES BEFORE THEY RECEIVED A 5 NAME THAT WAS, SAY, A TRADEMARK NAME OR COPYRIGHT 6 NAME. WE WOULD USE THE MCS SYMBOL FOR THEM. 7 Q AT ANY POINT IN TIME WHILE YOU WERE AT 8 THE QUEENY PLANT, SIR, DID YOU EVER SEE A DRUM OF 9 MCS-15 3 THAT HAD NO LABELS ON IT AND NO IDENTIFYING 10 MARKINGS, OTHER THAN A STAMP OR LOGO WITH A COMPANY 11 NAME ON THE LID? 12 MS . GRADY: OBJECTION, LACK OF FOUNDATION. 13 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. 14 THE WITNESS : YOU SAID "SUSTAINED"? 15 THE COURT: YES . 16 MR. ZIMMER: COULD WE HAVE A SIDEBAR, YOUR 17 HONOR? 18 THE COURT: YES. 19 2 0 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD 2 1 AT THE SIDE BAR NOT REPORTED.) 22 Q BY MR. ZIMMER: MR. SMID, YOU TOLD ME 23 BEFORE THAT YOU HAD OBSERVED THE FILLING OF DRUMS AT 24 THE CENTRAL FILLING STATION? 25 A MANY, MANY TIMES. 26 Q AND YOU HAD SEEN VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE 27 PRODUCTS PACKED AND AT QUEENY DRUMMED? 28 A YES . HARTOLDMON0042090 3842 1 Q HAVE YOU SEEN DRUMS OF MCS-153 BEFORE? 2 A I CAN'T RECALL SPECIFICALLY ANY SPECIFIC 3 DRUM OF -- I MEAN, THERE WERE SEVERAL HUNDRED 4 PRODUCTS. 5 AND I CAN'T SAY, YES, I SAW THAT DRUM. 6 Q OKAY. LET ME ASK YOU THIS, SIR. 7 DID YOU EVER SEE DRUMS OF ANY PRODUCT AT 8 THE QUEENY PLANT AFTER THEY WERE FILLED AT CENTRAL 9 DRUMMING WITH - 10 A THOUSANDS. 11 Q SIR, LET ME FINISH MYQUESTION. 12 A I'M SORRY. 13 Q DID YOU EVER SEE DRUMS .OF ANY PRODUCT AT 14 THE QUEENY PLANT AFTER HAVING BEEN FILLED AT CENTRAL 15 DRUMMING THAT HAD NO LABELS ON THEM AT ALL? 16 A NO. NO. 17 Q NOW, SIR, DO YOU RECALL ANY CHANGES 18 HAVING BEEN MADE TO LABELS THAT WERE APPLIED TO 19 AROCLOR-CONTAINING PRODUCTS IN THE EARLY 70'S? 20 A I RECALL HAVING TO MAKE AN ADDITION TO 2 1 THE LABEL. 22 WE HAD WHAT THEY CALLED -- THERE WAS AN 23 ISSUE, A MAJOR ISSUE ABOUT ADDING A PCB STICKER TO 24 FURTHER IDENTIFY THE HAZARDS ASSOCIATED WITH THE 25 MATERIALS THAT CONTAINED AROCLOR. 26 Q ALL RIGHT. LET ME SHOW YOU AN EXHIBIT, 27 SIR, NUMBER 719 AND ASK YOU IF YOU CAN IDENTIFY THAT 28 FOR ME. HARTOLDMON0042091 3843 1 IS THAT THE STICKER YOU ARE REFERRING TO? 2 A THAT'S IT. 3 Q AND WHAT WAS DONE WITH THIS STICKER? 4 A IT WAS APPLIED ADJACENT TO THE LABEL. 5 Q ALL RIGHT. I WILL SHOW YOU SOME OTHER 6 LABELS IN A MOMENT. 7 LET ME ASK YOU WHAT UNDERSTANDING WHAT 8 PRODUCTS OF THIS WAS TO BE APPLIED TO? - 9 MS. GRADY: OBJECTION, LACK OF FOUNDATION. 10 THE COURT: REPHRASE IT, MR. ZIMMER. 11 Q BY MR. ZIMMER: SIR, WHAT WAS YOUR 12 UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT PRODUCTS THIS LABEL WAS 13 INTENDED FOR? 14 A THIS LABEL WAS INTENDED TO BE APPLIED TO 15 ALL PRODUCTS WHICH CONTAINED AROCLOR. 16 Q AND HOW DID YOU FIRST LEARN OF THAT 17 INTENT? 18 A EXACTLY WHEN IT WAS OR EXACTLY -- I 19 REMEMBER CONVERSATIONS WHICH INVOLVED THIS WITH MY 20 SUPERVISORS THAT WERE IN CHARGE OF THE CENTRAL 21 DRUMMING AND THE LABELING SUPERVISOR. 22 BUT I CAN'T GIVE YOU THE EXACT DATE. 23 I CAN'T -- I CAN JUST TELL YOU THAT THE 24 CONVERSATIONS WERE THERE. 25 I REMEMBER THE MANDATE AND WE WERE A VERY 26 PRECISE ORGANIZATION. 27 WE SATISFIED THAT MANDATE, THAT 28 REQUIREMENT. HARTOLDMON0042092 3844 1 Q WHAT STEPS DID YOU TAKE, SIR, TO CARRY 2 OUT THAT MANDATE? 3 A I GAVE MY PEOPLE THE ORDER, THE CHARGE TO 4 DO IT. 5 Q AND WHAT PEOPLE? 6 I'M SORRY. 7 A THE PEOPLE WHO DID IT WERE THE 8 SUPERVISOR, QUINTON CAPOCEFALO AND GEORGE MURRAY WERE 9 THE SUPERVISORS THAT WERE PRIMARILY INVOLVED IN WHAT 10 I WOULD CALL THE MAJOR INCIDENT KIND OF THING. 11 IT WAS A MAJOR THING YOU HAD TO DO. IT 12 WASN'T SOMETHING THAT YOU JUST DAY IN AND DAY OUT HAD 13 TO DO. YOU HIT SOMETHING THAT HAD TO BE DONE AND IT 14 HAD TO BE DONE PRECISELY AND QUICKLY. 15 Q ARE MR. CAPOCEFALO AND MR. MURRAY STILL 16 WITH MONSANTO? 17 A NO, THEY BOTH RETIRED AND ARE DECEASED. 18 Q ALL RIGHT. HOW WERE STICKERS OF THIS 19 SORT OBTAINED BY THE QUEENY PLANT? 20 A IN MANY DIFFERENT WAYS. 21 THEY COULD HAVE BEEN -- WHERE YOU HAD A 22 MAJOR INCIDENT LIKE THIS, THEY COULD HAVE BEEN 23 BROUGHT DOWN BY SOMEONE FROM THE GENERAL OFFICES. 24 MOST LIKELY, IN MY MIND, THEY WERE 25 BROUGHT FROM THE PEOPLE ACROSS THE RIVER AT THE 26 KRUMMRICH PLANT WHERE THEY USED HUNDREDS OF THESE A 27 DAY. WE WERE A VERY, VERY SMALL USER COMPARED TO 28 THEM. HARTOL D M 6N0042093 3845 1 SO THEY HAD A GIANT INVENTORY OF 2 SOMETHING LIKE THIS AVAILABLE. 3 WE HAD MESSENGERS THAT MADE THE RUN EVERY 4 DAY, SEVERAL TIMES A DAY BETWEEN THE PLANTS AND 5 GENERAL OFFICES OR THEY COULD HAVE BEEN ORDERED 6 DIRECTLY. 7 I CAN'T SPEAK FOR GEORGE MURRAY, 8 UNFORTUNATELY. 9 Q DID YOU YOURSELF, SIR, EVER APPLY ANY OF 10 THESE STICKERS TO DRUMS OF AROCLOR-CONTAINING 11 PRODUCTS AT THE QUEENY PLANT? 12 A NO, I DIDN'T. BUT I DID SEE THEM ON THE 13 DRUMS. 14 Q WHERE DID YOU SEE THEM? 15 A ALL OF THOSE PRODUCTS WERE STORED AT A 16 CERTAIN SECTION OF THE WAREHOUSE. THEY WERE THERE. 17 Q AND YOU YOURSELF OBSERVED THAT? 18 A YES, I DID. 19 Q DO YOU RECALL BILL PAPAGEORGE? 20 A YES, I DO. 21 Q DO YOU KNOWIF MR. PAPAGEORGE HAD EVER 22 WORKED AT THE QUEENY PLANT? 2 3 A MR. PAPAGEORGE --. I WORKED FOR A GENERAL 24 SUPERINTENDENT. MR. PAPAGEORGE HAD THAT JOB PRIOR TO 25 HIM. 2 6 SO MR. PAPAGEORGE WAS THE BOSS OF THE 27 PERSON WHOSE PLACE I TOOK AT ONE TIME. 28 Q DID MR. PAPAGEORGE EVER VISIT THE QUEENY HARTOLDMON0042094 3846 1 PLANT WHILE YOU WERE SUPERINTENDENT? 2 A MANY, MANY TIMES, FOR MANY, MANY 3 REASONS. 4 Q SIR, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, DID ALL DRUMS 5 LEAVING THE QUEENY PLANT AND WAREHOUSE AFTER JUNE OF 6 1970 HAVE THIS STICKER ON THEM, IF THEY CONTAINED 7 AROCLORS? 8 A TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE I'M 9 ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN THEY DID BECAUSE OF PEOPLE I HAD 10 RESPONSIBILITY FOR TOLD ME IT WAS DONE. 11 AND I HAD FULL FAITH IN THEM. 12 Q SIR, I WANT TO SHOW YOU A FEW DIFFERENT 13 EXHIBITS, BEGINNING WITH NUMBER 41. 14 IF I COULD ASK YOU TO TURN AROUND AND 15 PULL OUT THE BLUE BINDER THAT WOULD HAVE THAT 16 NUMBER. 17 A OH, IT MUST BE HERE. 18 NUMBER 41? 19 Q PLEASE. 20 DO YOU HAVE THAT ONE? 2 1 A YES, SIR. 22 Q COULD YOU TELL US WHAT THAT IS, SIR. 2 3 A THIS IS A COPY OF A THREE-BY-FIVE CARD 24 THAT WAS, I FOUND THOUSANDS OF THESE IN THE LABELING 2 5 DEPARTMENT WHEN I TOOK IT OVER. 2 6 IT'S A RECORD THAT SHOWS PROGRESSION OF A 27 LABEL. 28 Q AND THOSE WERE KEPT ON FILE IN THE HARTOLDMON0042095 3847 1 LABELING DEPARTMENT? 2 A ON FILE IN THE CORPORATE LABELING AND 3 REGISTRATION DEPARTMENT. 4 Q WAS THE INFORMATION THAT IS REFLECTED 5 THEIR PART OF THE SYSTEM THAT YOU TOOK OVER WHEN YOU 6 ASSUMED THE HEAD OF THE LABELING DEPARTMENT? 7 A YES, IT IS. 8 Q AND WHAT SORT OF INFORMATION IS REFLECTED 9 ON THIS CARD? 10 A WELL, FIRST OFF, IT TELLS THE PRODUCT 11 CODE AND THE GRADE AND THE LABEL NUMBER AND THE 12 MANUFACTURER OF THE LABEL. 13 DO YOU WANT ME TO IDENTIFY WHAT EACH 14 NUMBER IS? 15 Q NO, I THINK YOU HAVE TOLD US ENOUGH ABOUT 16 THAT. 17 IS THAT THE TOP NUMBER I HAVE 18 HIGHLIGHTED? 19 A THE TOP NUMBER IS PART OF THE NUMBER. 2 0 THEN IT TELLS YOU THE NAME OF THE 2 1 PRODUCT, IT TELLS YOU THE SALES CODE, THE NAME OF THE 2 2 PRODUCT. IT TELLS YOU THAT IT HAD A 605 NET POUND 23 WEIGHT, A 48-POUND TEAR RATE WHICH FOR A DRUM WAS ON 24 ALL 18 GAUGE. 25 THAT IS THE ONE I DESCRIBED EARLIER WHICH 26 HAS THE WHITE ENDS AND HEADS. 27 Q WHAT IS A TEAR WEIGHT? 28 A A TEAR WEIGHT IS THE WEIGHT OF THE HARTOLDMON0042096 3848 1 CONTAINER. 2 LIKE IF YOU PURCHASE ANYTHING AND THE 3 CONTAINER HAS A WEIGHT, YOU DON'T BUY THE CONTAINER. 4 YOU BOUGHT THE PRODUCT THAT IS IN IT. 5 THE NET WEIGHT IS THE PRODUCT IN IT. 6 SO THE PRODUCT HERE WEIGHED 605 POUNDS. 7 THEN, OF COURSE, YOU ADD THOSE TWO TOGETHER TO GET 8 THE GROSS WEIGHT. THAT IS NOT ON THIS. 9 IT ALSO TELLS THE SIZE OF THE LABEL. 10 IN THIS CASE IT TELLS THEY WERE ORDERED, 11 1,000 OF THEM WERE ORDERED BY THE QUEENY PLANT. 12 THEN IT ALSO HAS A CHANGE ON 12-2-69 13 WHERE THEY HAVE CHANGED TO POINT TWO AND THEY HAVE 14 CHANGED THE NAME FROM MCS-153 TO TURBINOL. 15 IT SAYS ALL ELSE IS THE SAME AND 1,000 16 ORDERED BY THE QUEENY PLANT. 17 Q LET ME SHOW YOU, SIR, EXHIBIT 722. 18 I ASK YOU IF THAT IS THE TURBINOL LABEL 19 THAT IS DESCRIBED. 2 0 A CAN I LOOK AT IT UP THERE? 21 Q YOU CAN LOOK AT IT THERE, IF YOU LIKE, OR 22 PULL IT OUT OF THAT BINDER. 23 722 IS THE NUMBER. 24 A ARE WE FINISHED WITH THIS ONE HERE? 25 Q YES, SIR. 26 A I HAVE IT. 27 YES, SIR. 28 Q MY QUESTION, SIR, IS THAT THE LABEL THAT HARTOLDMON0042097 3849 1 WAS REFERRED TO IN EXHIBIT 41 THAT YOU REVIEWED A 2 MOMENT AGO? 3 A YES, IT IS. 4 Q ALL RIGHT. 5 A THIS IS THE LABEL. 6 IT HAS THE NUMBER ON THE BOTTOM. 7 Q ALL RIGHT. LET ME, THEN, SHOW YOU 8 EXHIBIT 721. 9 DO YOU HAVE THAT ONE? 10 A YES, I DO. 11 Q AND DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT AS THE LABEL 12 THAT PRECEDED THE TURBINOL LABEL? 13 A THAT WOULD BE THE ONE THAT PRECEDED THE 14 TURBINOL. 15 Q OKAY. 16 A IT HAS THE NUMBER 1.01. 17 Q LET ME ASK YOU, SIR, TO TAKE A LOOK AT 18 EXHIBIT 513. 19 DO YOU HAVE THAT? 20 A YES, I DO. 2 1 Q AND IS THIS A MEMO THAT YOU WERE COPIED 22 ON IN 1964? 2 3 A YES, IT IS. 24 Q AND WHERE WERE YOU WORKING AT THE TIME? 25 A I WAS AT THE KRUMMRICH PLANT AT THAT TIME 2 6 COORDINATING THE LABEL FOR THE PLANT. 27 Q OKAY. AND YOU WILL NOTE THAT THE TITLE 28 OF THE MEMO FROM A MR. SIDO IS "POLYCHLORINATED HARTOLDMON0042098 3850 1 POLYPHENYL DRUM LABELING, AROCLORS, PYDRAULS, 2 INERTEENS AND PYRANOLS." 3 MY QUESTION IS, SIR, WHAT DID THE TERM 4 "CHLORINATED POLYPHENYL" MEAN TO YOU IN 1964? 5 A I DON'T KNOW. 6 I KNOW THAT IT REPRESENTED -- I KNEW THAT 7 THE RAW MATERIAL FOR AROCLOR CONTAINED A PHENYL, A 8 DIPHENYL, BIPHENYL, WHATEVER. 9 BUT I AM REALLY NOT A CHEMIST. 10 SO I'M NOT SURE WHATTHAT MEANS. 11 Q OKAY. YOU SAID BIPHENYL OR DIPHENYL. 12 DO YOU USE THE TERM PCB'S TODAY? 13 A I DO TODAY. 14 BUT I DON'T THINK I USED THEM YEARS AGO. 15 IT WASN'T A TERM THAT WAS THAT COMMON. 16 I MEAN, THAT IS ALMOST LIKE A CHEMISTRY 17 TERM. 18 Q WHAT TERM DID YOU USE YEARS AGO TO 19 DESCRIBE PCB'S? 20 A PCB'S? 21 WE USED THE TERM CHLORINATED HYDROCARBON 22 ON OUR LABELS WHICH WAS A MUCH MORE INCLUSIVE TYPE 23 WORD AND NOT BEING A CHEMIST.I CAN'T TELL YOU THE 24 DIFFERENCE. 25 Q SO YOU USED THE TERM "CHLORINATED 26 HYDROCARBON"? 27 A YES, WE DID. 28 Q WERE AROCLORS CHLORINATED HYDROCARBONS? HARTOLDMON0042099 3851 1 A YES, THEY WERE. 2 Q OKAY. SIR, DO YOU RECALL THERE BEING A 3 REFORMULATION OF PYDRAUL FLUIDS IN THE EARLY PART OF 4 THE 1970'S? 5 A YES, I DO. I RECALL THAT THE PROGRAM 6 STARTED PRIOR TO THAT. 7 Q AND WAS TURBINOL A PYDRAUL? 8 A NO. TURBINOL WAS A STAND-ALONE. 9 IT DIDN'T -- IT WAS NOT A PYDRAUL. 10 IT HAD SOME OF THE SAME RAW MATERIALS IN 11 IT. 12 IT'S NOT -- SKYDROL IS A HYDRAULIC FLUID 13 FOR AIRPLANES. 14 PYDRAUL IS A HYDRAULIC FLUID FOR 15 INDUSTRIES. 16 TURBINOL WAS A LUBRICANT-TYPE FLUID. 17 I DON'T KNOW -- IT'S NOT THE SAME. 18 Q THANK YOU, SIR. 19 MR. ZIMMER: NOTHING FURTHER AT THIS TIME. 2 0 THE COURT: MS. GRADY. 2 1 MS . GRADY: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. 22 2 3 CROSS EXAMINATION 24 BY MS. GRADY: 25 Q GOOD AFTERNOON, MR. SMID. 2 6 A GOOD AFTERNOON. GOOD SEEING YOU. 27 Q I WANT TO GO OVER A FEW OF THE THINGS 28 THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT WITH MR. ZIMMER. BUT I WANT TO HARTOLDMON0042100 3852 1 TALK ABOUT A MUCH NARROWER TIME FRAME. 2 THE TIME FRAME I WANT YOU TO DIRECT YOUR 3 ATTENTION TO IS MAY, 1970 THROUGH JANUARY, 1971. 4 SO WHEN I ASK YOU QUESTIONS, I WILL 5 REMIND YOU. 6 BUT WHEN I ASK YOU QUESTIONS, I WANT YOU 7 TO HAVE THAT TIME PERIOD IN MIND, OKAY? 8 A I WILL TRY. 9 Q OKAY. THAT'S -- 10 A I DON'T KNOW THAT I CAN GET THAT SPECIFIC 11 BECAUSE YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT AN AWFUL LONG TIME AGO. 12 YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT AN AWFUL LOT OF 13 THINGS THAT WENT ON. . 14 SO I DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE BEING THAT 15 SPECIFIC. 16 YOU ARE PINNING ME DOWN ON SOMETHING THAT 17 I COULD TALK ABOUT -- I MEAN, I WILL TRY. 18 Q THAT IS WHAT I ASK YOU TO DO. 19 A LOT OF IMPORTANT THINGS THAT HAPPENED 20 IN THIS CASE HAPPENED IN THAT TIME PERIOD. SO THAT 2 1 IS WHY I NEED YOU TO TRY TO BE AS SPECIFIC AS 22 POSSIBLE ABOUT THE TIME PERIOD, WHICH IS MAY, 1970 TO 23 JANUARY, 1971, OKAY? 24 ALL I CAN DO IS ASK YOU TO TRY. 25 YOU WILL DO THAT, RIGHT? 2 6 A YES. YES, I WILL. 27 Q NOW, AT THE QUEENY PLANT DURING THIS 28 PERIOD THERE WERE TWO SOURCES OF INFORMATION KEPT AT HARTOLDMON0042101 3 853 1 THE PLANT ABOUT HOW PRODUCTS WERE TO BE LABELED. 2 AND THOSE WERE THE PLANT MANUAL AND THE 3 OPERATING MANUAL, RIGHT? 4 A THAT'S CORRECT. 5 Q AND THE PLANT MANUAL WAS ATHREE-RING 6 BINDER OF INFORMATION THAT HAD TABS IN IT, RIGHT? 7 A YES, IT WAS. 8 Q AND THE TABS WERE SAFETY AND TRAINING AND 9 PACKAGING. 10 ONE OF THE TABS WAS LABELING, RIGHT? 11 A THAT'S CORRECT. 12 Q AND WHAT WAS INCLUDEDBEHIND THE LABELING 13 TAB WAS INFORMATION ABOUT WHERE TO APPLY THE LABELS 14 AND ABOUT WHICH LABELS TO PUT ON AND HOW THE LABELS 15 WERE TO BE APPLIED, RIGHT? 16 A IT -- YOU WENT ONE STEP TOO FAR WHEN YOU 17 SAID WHICH LABELS WOULD BE PUT ON. 18 BECAUSE -- IT'S POSSIBLE THAT -- IT 19 REALLY WAS A FORMAT THAT SAID YOU PUT THE LABEL HERE 20 AND YOU PUT A -- ON A BAG YOU PRE-PRINT IT AND PUT IT 21 HERE . 22 IT WAS THAT TYPE OF A -- IT WAS IN 2 3 GENERALITIES. 24 THE PLANT MANUAL WAS IN GENERALITIES. 25 Q OKAY. BUT IT INCLUDED INFORMATION ABOUT 2 6 WHERE TO APPLY THE LABELS, RIGHT? 27 A THAT'S RIGHT. 28 Q AND THE PLANT MANUAL WAS UPDATED, RIGHT, HARTOLDMON0042102 3854 1 AS NEW INFORMATION CAME IN AS TO WHERE TO APPLY THE 2 LABELS, THE PLANT MANUAL GOT UPDATED, RIGHT? 3 A YES, IT DID. 4 Q OKAY. BUT IT WASN'T YOUR RESPONSIBILITY 5 TO UPDATE THAT PLANT MANUAL SECTION THAT HAD TO DO 6 WITH LABELING, RIGHT? 7 A IT WAS. 8 THE PERSON THAT DID THAT WORKED FOR ME. 9 Q MR. MURRAY'S RESPONSIBILITY? 10 A BUT HE WORKED FOR ME. 11 ANYTHING THAT MR. MURRAY DID I DID. 12 I MEAN, IF HE DID SOMETHING -- DIDN'T DO 13 SOMETHING, I WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR IT. 14 Q RIGHT. 15 BUT YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT INFORMATION 16 MR. MURRAY RELIED ON TO UPDATE THE PLANT MANUAL 17 SECTION ON LABELING, RIGHT? 18 A FROM MY EXPERIENCE AT THE KRUMMRICH PLANT 19 WHERE I WAS -- WHERE I HAD THE TYPE OF JOB THAT 20 GEORGE MURRAY DID IN SOME RESPECTS AND FROM MY LATER 21 EXPERIENCE I DON'T FIND THAT THERE WAS MUCH CHANGE IN 22 THAT, THAT 90 PERCENT OF THE INFORMATION CAME FROM 23 THE LABELING SECTION AT CREVCORE. 24 Q I'M ASKING YOU ABOUT THE PERIOD BETWEEN 25 MAY, 1970 AND JANUARY, 1971. 26 IF THE PLANT MANUAL AT QUEENY LABELING 27 SECTION WAS UPDATED, THAT WAS DONE BY MR. MURRAY, 28 RIGHT? HARTOLDMON0042103 3855 1 A BY MR. MURRAY. 2 AND IF I HAD A CHANCE TO REVIEW IT, I 3 WOULD REVIEW IT. 4 Q YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT INFORMATION 5 MR. MURRAY RELIED ON, RIGHT? 6 A I DON'T REMEMBER. 7 Q YOU OCCASIONALLY GAVE MR. MURRAY UPDATE 8 INFORMATION, RIGHT? 9 A YES . 10 Q BUT YOU DON'T RECALL ANY SPECIFIC 11 INSTANCES OF UPDATE INFORMATION THAT YOU PROVIDED TO 12 MR. MURRAY FOR THE PLANT MANUAL, RIGHT? 13 A NOT TODAY. 14 Q ALL RIGHT. 15 A I DON'T REMEMBER ANY THAT WERE BIG ENOUGH 16 THAT I WOULD REMEMBER THEM. 17 Q RIGHT. 18 YOU DON'T RECALLIF YOU EVER GOT 19 INFORMATION FROM MR. SIDO THAT YOU PASSED ON TO 20 MR. MURRAY TO UPDATE THE PLANT MANUAL SECTION ON 2 1 LABELING DURING THIS PERIOD, RIGHT? 22 A NO, I DON'T. 2 3 Q BY THE WAY, YOU INDICATED TO MR. ZIMMER 24 THAT MR. PAPAGEORGE VISITED THE QUEENY PLANT, RIGHT? 25 A YES, HE DID. 26 Q DID MR. PAPAGEORGE VISIT THE QUEENY PLANT 27 BETWEEN MAY, 1970 AND JUNE, 1971? 28 A I CAN'T SAY SPECIFICALLY, BUT I CAN TELL HARTOLDMON0042104 3 856 1 YOU THAT MR. PAPAGEORGE VISITED THE QUEENY PLANT ON 2 MANY, MANY OCCASIONS. 3 IF HE DIDN'T COME DURING THAT PERIOD OF 4 TIME, I WOULD BE EXTREMELY, EXTREMELY SURPRISED. 5 Q BUT YOU DON'T RECALL IF HE DID OR NOT? 6 A NO, I CAN'T TELL YOU THAT HE DID. 7 Q AND YOU DON'T RECALL WHERE THE PLANT 8 MANUAL WAS KEPT IN CENTRAL DRUMMING, RIGHT? 9 A PHYSICALLY? 10 Q PHYSICALLY KEPT. 11 A I DON'T RECALL. 12 I CAN TELL YOU THAT EVERY DEPARTMENT AND 13 MYSELF HAD A COPY OF THE PLANT MANUAL. 14 Q BUT YOU DON'T RECALL WHERE IT WAS KEPT IN 15 CENTRAL DRUMMING, RIGHT? 16 A THERE WERE A LOT OF MANUALS IN CENTRAL 17 DRUMMING. 18 I CAN'T TELL YOU EXACTLY WHERE THAT 19 PARTICULAR ONE WAS SITTING. 2 0 Q THAT IS BECAUSE IT WAS MR. MURRAY'S 2 1 OBLIGATION TO UPDATE LABELING INFORMATION IN THE 22 PLANT MANUAL AND YOU DON'T RECALL ANY DISCUSSIONS 23 WITH MR. MURRAY REGARDING UPDATING THAT PLANT MANUAL 24 DURING THE PERIOD WE ARE TALKING ABOUT, RIGHT? 25 A NO, THAT DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH 26 MY DISCUSSIONS WITH MR. MURRAY. 27 THE REASON I DON'T REMEMBER WHERE IT WAS 28 IN CENTRAL DRUMMING IS BECAUSE IT WAS A SUPERVISOR'S HARTOLDMON0042105 3857 1 RESPONSIBILITY THERE WHO WAS QUINTON CAPOCEFALO. 2 YOU ARE GOING ALL THE WAY TO THAT PERIOD 3 OF TIME, I JUST CAN'T -- I CAN'T REMEMBER, NO, NOT 4 EXACTLY. 5 Q OKAY. THE OTHER PLACE -6 A MURRAY'S JOB COVERED THE WHOLE PLANT. 7 Q I'M GOING TO ASK YOU, MR. SMITH, TO TRY 8 TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS DIRECTLY, OKAY. 9 THE OTHER PLACE LABELING INFORMATION WAS 10 KEPT WAS IN OPERATING MANUALS, RIGHT? 11 A THAT'S CORRECT. 12 Q AND THERE WERE OPERATING MANUALS FOR 13 EVERY PRODUCT THAT WAS MANUFACTURED AT THE QUEENY 14 PLANT, RIGHT? 15 A THAT'S CORRECT. 16 Q AND THERE WERE OVER 300 PRODUCTS THAT 17 WERE DRUMMED IN CENTRAL DRUMMING DURING THIS PERIOD 18 THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT, BETWEEN MAY, 1970 AND 19 JANUARY, 1971, RIGHT? 20 A NO, THAT'S NOT RIGHT. 21 THERE WAS PROBABLY SOME NUMBER LESS THAN 22 THAT. 23 BECAUSE DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIME WE 24 MANUFACTURED ABOUT 300 PRODUCTS BUT WE DIDN'T DRUM 25 ALL OF THEM. 26 Q WHAT DID YOU DO WITH THE ONES YOU DIDN'T 27 DRUM? 28 A WE SHIPPED THEM IN BULK. HARTOLDMON0042106 3858 1 Q OKAY. BUT THERE WERE 300 PRODUCTS -- LET 2 ME REPHRASE. 3 THERE WERE OVER 300 PRODUCTS BLENDED OR 4 MANUFACTURED IN CENTRAL DRUMMING, RIGHT? 5 A THAT IS AN ESTIMATE. 6 Q BUT IT'S AN ACCURATE ESTIMATE AS FAR AS 7 YOU ARE CONCERNED? 8 A IT COULD BE 50 PERCENT OFF. 9 I MEAN, I SAID IT BECAUSE YOU WANTED AN 10 ESTIMATE. I GAVE YOU AN ESTIMATE, A BEST GUESS. 11 I -- HOW MANY PAGES IS A COMPUTER RUN 12 THAT IS THAT THICK? THAT IS HOW MANY COST SHEETS I 13 HAD. 14 Q BUT THAT IS YOUR BEST ESTIMATE, RIGHT? 15 A YES, IT IS. 16 Q AND YOU DIDN'T HAVE ANY RESPONSIBILITY 17 FOR LABELING THE UPDATE INFORMATION IN THE OPERATING 18 MANUALS, RIGHT? 19 A RESTATE THAT? 20 Q SURE . 21 IN CENTRAL DRUMMING THERE WAS AN 22 OPERATING MANUAL FOR EVERY PRODUCT THAT WAS 23 MANUFACTURED IN CENTRAL DRUMMING, RIGHT? 24 A THAT'S CORRECT. 25 Q AND THE OPERATING MANUAL HAD INFORMATION 26 IN IT ABOUT WHAT LABEL WAS TO BE PLACED ON THE DRUM 27 OF THAT PRODUCT, RIGHT? 28 A THAT'S CORRECT. ... ' .............. .... ..... HARTOLDMON0042107 3859 1 Q AND THAT INFORMATION HAD TO BE UPDATED IF 2 THE LABELING INFORMATION CHANGED, RIGHT? 3 A THAT'S CORRECT. 4 Q AND IN CENTRAL DRUMMING WHERETURBINOL 5 WAS BLENDED, THAT WAS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE 6 SUPERVISOR AND THE FOREMAN, RIGHT? 7 A THAT'S CORRECT. 8 Q IT WASN'T YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO UPDATE 9 THE OPERATING MANUAL? 10 A IT WAS MY RESPONSIBILITY IN THAT THEY 11 REPORTED TO ME AND WHAT THEY DID AND WHAT THEY WERE 12 SUPPOSED TO DO I HAD TO RELY ON 100 PERCENT THAT THEY 13 DID THEIR JOB. 14 BECAUSE WE HAD A FUNCTION THAT YOU DON'T 15 JUST SAY IT'S NOT YOUR JOB. 16 THEY WORKED FOR ME. IT WAS MY JOB. 17 Q OKAY. BUT YOU DIDN'T UPDATE THE 18 OPERATING MANUALS YOURSELF FOR THE PRODUCTS IN 19 CENTRAL DRUMMING, RIGHT? 20 A THAT'S CORRECT. 21 Q OKAY. AND FOR OTHER MANUFACTURING 22 DEPARTMENTS WITHIN THE QUEENY PLANT YOU DON'T KNOW 23 WHO UPDATED THOSE OPERATING MANUALS, RIGHT, WHEN 24 LABELING INFORMATION CHANGED? 25 A THAT'S CORRECT. 26 Q AND THE OPERATING MANUAL FOR THE 27 INDIVIDUAL PRODUCT MANUFACTURED WAS THE ONLY RECORD 28 OF WHAT LABELS WENT ON THE DRUMS, RIGHT? HARTO LD M ON0042108 3860 1 A I'M NOT SURE. 2 BUT I WILL SAY I FEEL THAT THAT WAS 3 PROBABLY THE BEST RECORD. 4 Q OKAY. AND YOUR BEST RECOLLECTION AT THIS 5 POINT IS THAT QUINTON CAPOCEFALO -- IS THAT HOW YOU 6 PRONOUNCE HIS NAME? 7 A YES . 8 Q -- WAS THE SUPERVISOR OF CENTRAL DRUMMING 9 IN THE SUMMER OF 1970, RIGHT? 10 A YES, IT IS. 11 Q BUT YOU ARE NOT SURE OF THAT, ARE YOU? 12 A YES, I FEEL THAT HE WAS. 13 I AM AS SURE AS I CAN GET WITH THAT KIND 14 OF TIME FRAME THAT YOU ARE JUST VERY NARROWLY PUTTING 15 ON ME HERE. 16 BECAUSE IT'S DIFFICULT TO SAY MONTH BY 17 MONTH WHO WAS EXACTLY WHERE. 18 I FEEL THAT HE WAS. 19 Q THE FELLOW THAT - 20 A HE IS THE ONE THAT I WORKED ON MOST OF 2 1 THESE ISSUES. 22 Q THE FELLOW THAT FOLLOWED MR. CAPOCEFALO 23 IN THAT JOB WAS SOMEBODY CALLED MR. WAGNER, CORRECT? 24 A THAT IS CORRECT. 25 Q WHAT WAS MR. WAGNER'S FIRST NAME? 26 A RICHARD. 27 Q AND IT COULD HAVE BEEN THAT MR. WAGNER, 28 DURING THE SUMMER OF 1970, WAS THE SUPERVISOR IN HARTOLDMON0042109 3861 1 CENTRAL DRUMMING, RIGHT? 2 A THAT IS VERY POSSIBLE. 3 BECAUSE HE CAME IN AROUND THEN. 4 THAT IS VERY POSSIBLE. 5 Q OR IT COULD HAVE BEEN THE FELLOW THAT 6 SUCCEEDED MR. WAGNER, RIGHT? 7 A I DON'T -- THAT ISN'T RIGHT. I'M SURE. 8 Q SO YOU THINK IT WAS EITHER MR. CAPOCEFALO 9 OR MR. WAGNER? 10 A THAT'S RIGHT. 11 Q AND AS FAR AS YOU CAN REMEMBER, AL BENDER 12 WAS THE FOREMAN IN CENTRAL DRUMMING, RIGHT? 13 A AL BENDER WAS THE FOREMAN FOR A LONG 14 PERIOD OF TIME AND HE WAS REPLACED BY ANOTHER FELLOW 15 NAMED AL ALIF (PH) WHO HE WAS ALSO DISCUSSED AND HE 16 ALSO DIED, DECEASED. 17 I DON'T REMEMBER THE DATE. 18 Q YOU DIDN'T UPDATE ANY OPERATING MANUALS 19 IN CENTRAL DRUMMING TO INCLUDE THE ENVIRONMENTAL 20 STICKER, DID YOU? 21 A I DIDN'T, NO. 22 Q AND YOU DON'T RECALL ANY DISCUSSIONS -- 2 3 LET ME MAKE SURE WE'RE ON THE SAME WAVELENGTH HERE. 24 EXHIBIT 719 IS WHAT I'M GOING TO CALL THE 25 PCB ENVIRONMENTAL STICKER, OKAY, MR. SMID? 2 6 A OKAY. 27 Q AND YOU DON'T RECALL ANY DISCUSSIONS WITH 28 MR. MURRAY OR WITH MR. CAPOCEFALO CONCERNING UPDATING HARTOLDMON0042110 3862 1 THE OPERATING MANUALS TO INCLUDE THE PCB STICKER, 2 RIGHT? 3 A I RECALL CONVERSATIONS TELLING THEM THAT 4 WE WERE REQUIRED TO DO THAT, TO PUT THE PCB STICKER 5 ON AROCLOR LABELS. 6 BUT I DON'T RECALL SAYING SPECIFICALLY 7 THAT YOU HAVE TO UPDATE THE MANUAL. 8 BECAUSE I FEEL THAT WAS AN AUTOMATIC. 9 IT WAS AN UNDERSTANDING. 10 THIS WASN'T JUST SOMETHING THAT CAME ONE 11 DAY AND LEFT THE NEXT. 12 THIS WAS A BIG ISSUE FOR US, SOMETHING 13 THAT WE PAID A LOT OF ATTENTION TO, SOMETHING THAT 14 HAD TO BE DONE. 15 Q OKAY. 16 I WOULD LIKE TO READ FROM MR. SMID'S 17 DEPOSITION AT PAGE 90, LINE 8 THROUGH LINE 23. 18 THE COURT: AND THE DATE OF THE DEPOSITION, 19 MS. GRADY? 20 MS. GRADY: (READING): 2 1 "Q. DID YOU HAVE ANY 22 CONVERSATIONS WITH MR. MURRAY 23 ABOUT UPDATING THE MANUALS TO 24 REFLECT THE NEW PCB STICKERS 25 "A. THE PCB STICKER WOULD 26 NOT BE AN UPDATE BY MR. MURRAY, 27 IT WOULD BE AN UPDATE BY 28 MR. CAPOCEFALO IN CENTRAL HARTOLDMONOQ42111 3863 1 LABELING AND HANDLING, CENTRAL 2 DRUMMING. 3 "Q. DID YOU HAVE ANY 4 DISCUSSIONS WITH MR. CAPOCEFALO 5 ABOUT UPDATING THE OPERATING 6 MANUALS TO REFLECT THE NEW PCB 7 LABEL? 8 "A. DID I -- I .^ 9 SPECIFICALLY RECALL? NO. 10 "Q. ANY THAT - 11 "A. DID I -- 12 "Q. CAN YOU GENERALLY 13 RECALL? 14 "A. NO. 15 A THAT IS WHAT I JUST SAID TO YOU. 16 THAT IS THE SAME THING I JUST REPEATED. 17 Q' YOU DON'T RECALL IF LABELS FOR CENTRAL 18 DRUMMING WERE EVER CHANGED TO REFLECT A PCB WARNING, 19 RIGHT? 20 A NO, I DON'T. 21 Q AND YOU DON'T REMEMBER HOW YOU GOT THE 22 INFORMATION THAT A NEW STICKER HAD TO BE PLACED ON 23 AROCLOR PRODUCTS, RIGHT? 24 A SPECIFICALLY? I DON'T REMEMBER. 25 THAT TYPE OF INFORMATION CAME IN PERIODIC 2 6 MEETINGS THAT WE ALL GOT TOGETHER WITH THAT WERE 27 CONDUCTED BY A FELLOW BY THE NAME OF JIM SAVAGE. 28 AND I -- YOU KNOW THAT WAS THE TYPE OF HARTOLDMON0042112 3864 1 TOPIC. 2 SO FAR AS I'M CONCERNED, MOST LIKELY THAT 3 IS WHERE THAT INFORMATION CAME FROM, WAS ONE OF THOSE 4 GET-TOGETHERS WHERE WE HAD EVERYBODY CONCERNED IN THE 5 THING AND WE WENT OVER THE LIST. 6 WE DISCUSSED IT AND IT WAS DONE. 7 Q BUT YOU ARE SPECULATING ABOUT THAT, 8 AREN'T YOU, MR. SMID? 9 A I'M ONLY SPECULATING IN THAT I DON'T KNOW 10 EXACTLY BUT I KNOW IT WAS DONE. 11 Q YOU DON'T RECALL HOW YOU ACQUIRED THE 12 INFORMATION THAT A NEW STICKER HAD TO BE PLACED ON 13 AROCLOR PRODUCTS, RIGHT? 14 A I REMEMBER THAT WE WERE TOLD TO DO THAT. 15 I REMEMBER THAT IT WAS DONE BECAUSE IT 16 WAS AN ISSUE. 17 LIKE I SAID, MOST OF THAT TYPE OF ISSUE, 18 THAT TYPE OF TOPIC, WAS ONE THAT CAME FROM MR. SAVAGE 19 BECAUSE HE WAS IN CHARGE OF THAT GROUP, AS FAR AS I 20 WAS CONCERNED. 2 1 I REPORTED TO HIM FOR THOSE KIND OF 2 2 PRODUCTS. 2 3 Q OKAY. BUT YOU DON'T HAVE ANY SPECIFIC 24 RECOLLECTION OF HOW YOU GOT THE INFORMATION, RIGHT? 25 A THAT'S RIGHT. 26 Q AND THE BEST RECOLLECTION THAT YOU HAVE 27 ABOUT WHEN YOU GOT THE INFORMATION IS SOMETIME IN THE 28 EARLY 1 9 7 0'S, RIGHT? HARTOLDMON0042113 3865 1 A VERY EARLY. 2 Q SO YOU DON'T RECALL IF YOU GOT THIS 3 INFORMATION BETWEEN JUNE, 1970 AND JANUARY, 1971, 4 RIGHT? 5 A LET ME SAY THIS. 6 I DO RECALL I WAS PART OF A PROGRAM THAT 7 WAS GOING ON. 8 SO WHEN THAT PROGRAM WAS INITIATED, WE 9 WERE A PART OF IT. 10 Q THAT WASN'T MY QUESTION, MR. SMID. 11 A I KNOW WHAT YOU SAID. 12 I'M JUST TELLING YOU WE WERE PART OF THE 13 PROGRAM. 14 I REMEMBER THAT. 15 I DON'T REMEMBER THE DATE. 16 BUT I REMEMBER THE PROGRAM THAT WAS GOING 17 ON . 18 WE WERE A PART OF IT. 19 Q BUT YOU DON'T RECALL -20 A I REMEMBER THAT WE HAD TO DO IT. 2 1 Q YOU DON'T RECALL THE DATE, DO YOU? 22 A NO, I DON'T. 23 Q AND YOU DON'T RECALL ANY DISCUSSIONS WITH 24 MR. PAPAGEORGE ABOUT RELABELING OF THE PYDRAUL 25 PRODUCTS, DO YOU? 26 A NO, I DON'T. 27 Q NOW, MR. SMID, ISN'T IT THE CASE THAT THE 28 MOST YOU CAN SAY IS THAT SOMETIME IN THE EARLY 1970'S _ - --- ....... ......... - HARTOLDMON0042114 3866 1 YOU SAW SOME DRUMS OF PRODUCT AT THE QUEENY PLANT 2 THAT HAD THIS STICKER ON IT? 3 A NO, THAT'S NOT THE MOST I CAN SAY. 4 I CAN SAY THAT I SAW -- I CAN SAY THAT. 5 AND IN ADDITION TO THAT I CAN SAY THAT THE QUEENY 6 PLANT WAS PART OF A PROGRAM TO GET THE WHAT I CALL 7 THE PCB STICKER ON EVERY DRUM THAT CONTAINED 8 AROCLOR. . ^ 9 Q DID YOU EVER REVIEW ANY OPERATING MANUALS 10 OF PCB-CONTAINING PRODUCTS TO SEE THAT THE LABEL 11 INFORMATION HAD BEEN UPDATED? 12 A NO, I DIDN'T. 13 Q YOU DON'T RECALL - 14 A THAT I CAN RECALL. 15 Q YOU DON'T RECALL WHAT PRODUCTS YOU SAW 16 THIS STICKER ON, DO YOU? 17 A SPECIFICALLY, NO. 18 Q YOU DIDN'T SEE A LOT OF PRODUCTS WITH 19 THIS STICKER ON IT, DID YOU? 20 A I SAW PART OF MY WAREHOUSE THAT HAD THAT 2 1 STICKER ON IT. 22 BUT I HAVE NO REASON TO DOUBT THAT IT 23 WASN'T A COMPLETE JOB. 24 BECAUSE IT WAS THAT KIND OF A PROGRAM 25 THAT WAS GOING ON. 26 I HAVE NO REASON TO DOUBT MY PEOPLE. 27 YOU ARE TELLING ME I SHOULD DOUBT THAT 28 THE PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR ME DID THEIR JOB. I CAN'T DO HARTOLDMON0042115 3867 1 THAT. 2 Q NO, I'M JUST HERE TO ASK YOU ABOUT YOUR 3 PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE, NOT ABOUT WHAT OTHER PEOPLE WERE 4 DOING. 5 A I'M GIVING YOU MY PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE. 6 Q ABOUT YOUR PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE. 7 YOU DIDN'T SEE A LOT OF PRODUCTS WITH PCB 8 STICKERS ON THEM, DID YOU? 9 A YES, I DID. 10 Q ALL RIGHT. 11 A I SAW -- I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY. 12 BUT, I MEAN, I SAW THEM IN THE WAREHOUSE. 13 Q DID YOU SEE A LOT? . 14 A WELL -- 15 MR. ZIMMER: OBJECTION, VAGUE, YOUR HONOR. 16 THE COURT: OVERRULED. 17 YOU MAY ANSWER. 18 DID YOU SEE A LOT? 19 THE WITNESS: WELL, I DON'T KNOW WHAT SHE MEANS 20 BY "A LOT," SIR. 2 1 I DON'T KNOW, COMPARED - 22 THE COURT: YOU HAVE ANSWERED THE QUESTION. 23 MS. GRADY: I WOULD LIKE TO READ FROM 2 4 MR. SMID'S DEPOSITION ON PAGE 94. 25 THE COURT: THE DATE OF THE DEPOSITION, 26 PLEASE? 27 MS. GRADY: APRIL 16, 1993. 28 LET'S SEE, PAGE 94, LINE 19 THROUGH LINE HARTOLDMONOQ42116 3868 1 22. (READING): 2 "Q. DID YOU SEE A LOT OF PRODUCTS WITH 3 THIS LABEL ON IT COMING OUT OF CENTRAL DRUMMING? 4 "A. NO." 5 Q YOU HAVE NO RECOLLECTION, MR. SMID, THAT 6 YOU SAW THIS LABEL ON TURBINOL DURING THE PERIOD MAY, 7 1970 TO JANUARY, 1971, DO YOU? 8 A I ANSWERED THAT WHEN I SAID I DON'T 9 REMEMBER ANY SPECIFIC PRODUCT THAT IT WAS ON. 10 I CANNOT REMEMBER THAT. 11 AND I -- IT'S TOO LONG AGO. 12 MS. GRADY: NOTHING FURTHER AT THIS TIME. 13 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. 14 BRIEF REDIRECT, MR. ZIMMER? GO AHEAD. 15 MR. ZIMMER: VERY BRIEF. 16 17 ' REDIRECT EXAMINATION 18 BY MR. ZIMMER: 19 Q MR. SMID, WHAT BECAME OF THE OPERATING 20 MANUALS THAT YOU DISCUSSED WITH MS. GRADY AFTER A 21 PRODUCT WAS DISCONTINUED? 22 A WE PITCHED THEM. 23 IN SOME CASES, IF THEY WERE PROPRIETARY, 24 WE SHREDDED THEM. 25 Q SO THEY WERE DISCARDED? 2 6 A YES, THEY WERE. 27 MR. ZIMMER: THANK YOU, NOTHING FURTHER. 28 MS. GRADY: YOUR HONOR, JUST ONE QUESTION. HARTOLD M ON0042111 3869 1 THE COURT: GO AHEAD. 2 3 RECROSS EXAMINATION 4 BY MS. GRADY: 5 Q ARE YOU AWARE OF THE DIRECTIVE FROM 6 MONSANTO'S LEGAL OFFICE IN THE EARLY 1970'S TO RETAIN 7 ALL RECORDS THAT HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH PCB'S? 8 MR. ZIMMER: NO FOUNDATION, YOUR HONOR. 9 THE COURT: I WILL ALLOW IT SUBJECT TO A LATER 10 FOUNDATION. 11 THAT MEANS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THAT IF 12 WE DO NOT LEARN THAT THERE WAS SUCH A DIRECTIVE, THEN 13 YOU WOULD DISREGARD ANY ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION. 14 YOU MAY ANSWER THE QUESTION. 15 THE WITNESS: STATE THE QUESTION AGAIN. 16 Q BY MS. GRADY: DO YOU WANT ME TO REPEAT 17 IT? 18 A YES, PLEASE. IT'S KIND OF -19 Q WERE YOU AWARE IN THE EARLY 1970'S OF A 20 DIRECTIVE, AN ORDER FROM MONSANTO'S LEGAL DEPARTMENT, 2 1 TO KEEP ALL RECORDS THAT HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH PCB 22 PRODUCTS? 23 A I WAS AWARE OF THE DIRECTIVE THAT WAS 24 SIMILAR TO THAT. 25 BUT I DIDN'T INTERPRET IT LIKE YOU ARE 26 INTERPRETING IT. 27 Q SO YOU DIDN'T INTERPRET IT TO HOLD ONTO 28 OPERATING MANUALS THAT HAD LABELING INSTRUCTIONS FOR HARTOLDMON0042118 3870 1 PCB PRODUCTS? 2 A NO, I DIDN'T. 3 MS . GRADY: NOTHING FURTHER. 4 THE COURT: ANYTHING FURTHER, MR. ZIMMER? 5 MR. ZIMMER: NO, I DON'T. 6 THE COURT: MAY THIS WITNESS NOW BE EXCUSED? 7 MR. ZIMMER: HE MAY. 8 THE COURT: AND MS. GRADY? 9 MS . GRADY: YES . <e 10 THE COURT: MR. SMID, THANK FOR YOUR ATTENDANCE 11 AT THIS TRIAL. 12 YOU ARE EXCUSED FROM FURTHER ATTENDANCE. 13 COUNSEL, MAY I SEE YOU AT SIDEBAR, 14 PLEASE. 15 16 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD 17 AT THE SIDE BAR NOT REPORTED.) 18 THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, BEFORE I 19 EXCUSE YOU FOR THE EVENING, LET ME BRING YOU UP AN 2 0 UNDERSTANDING OF THE SCHEDULING THAT I HAVE JUST BEEN 21 REVIEWING WITH THE LAWYERS. 22 WE ARE STILL VERY MUCH ON SCHEDULE IN 23 TERMS OF THE ORIGINAL IDEA OF THE CASE. 24 AND WHAT WE HAVE DETERMINED TO DO IS TO 25 DO SOME WORK ON THURSDAY MORNING RATHER THAN SPEND A 26 HALF DAY WITH YOU ON THURSDAY MORNING BECAUSE THERE 27 WILL BE SOME TESTIMONY ON JANUARY 3RD WHEN WE RESUME. 28 SO WHAT I'M SAYING TO YOU IS WE WILL HAVE HARTOLDMON0042119 3871 1 A NORMAL DAY TOMORROW FROM 9:30 TO 4:00 BUT YOU WILL 2 NOT COME IN ON THURSDAY OR ON FRIDAY. 3 TOMORROW AFTERNOON I WILL EXCUSE YOU TO 4 RETURN ON JANUARY 3, HAVING A SAFE AND SOBER HOLIDAY 5 IN BETWEEN. 6 WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? (INDICATING.) 7 SO YOU WON'T BE HERE ON THURSDAY. 8 YOU WILL BE DOING NO WORK WITH THE 9 LAWYERS ON THURSDAY. 10 DOES THAT RAISE A CONCERN IN CONNECTION 11 WITH YOUR WORK? IS THAT WHAT I'M HEARING? 12 IT COUNTS. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO TO MAKE IT 13 COUNT IS COME HERE TO THE COURTHOUSE AND SAY "GOOD 14 MORNING" TO MS. MARTINEZ. 15 I'M SERIOUS. I'M SURE SHE WILL SAY GOOD 16 MORNING OVER THE PHONE. 17 JUROR SUAREZ: FOR THE 27TH TO THE 30TH, I KNOW 18 3 IST IS A HOLIDAY. 19 IS IT THE 2 7 TH TO 30TH WE NEED TO GO 20 BACK? 21 THE COURT: IN TERMS OF YOUR JURY DAYS I THINK 22 WHAT YOU ARE ASKING IS THAT THE LAST WEEK OF DECEMBER 23 DOES NOT COUNT AS JURY DAYS. 24 THOSE ARE DAYS THAT YOUR EMPLOYER MAY 25 EXPECT YOU TO BE AT WORK. 2 6 JUROR SUAREZ: OKAY. 2 7 THE COURT: FROM DECEMBER 28TH THROUGH DECEMBER 28 3 OTH, UNLESS THAT IS A HOLIDAY AT YOUR WORK. HARTOLDMON0042120 3872 1 THAT IS YOUR REGULAR WORK. 2 JUROR SUAREZ: NOT THE 27TH. 3 THE COURT: I7M LOOKING AT A 794 CALENDAR. 4 THE WEEK OF THE 27TH BELONGS TO YOUR 5 EMPLOYER, NOT TO THE COURT. 6 JUROR SUAREZ: OKAY. 7 THE COURT: THEN I WILL REMIND YOU NOT TO THINK 8 ABOUT THE CASE, FORM ANY IMPRESSION OR SAY ANYTHING 9 TO ANY OTHER PERSON ABOUT ANYTHING HAVING TO DO WITH 10 IT . 11 HAVE A NICE EVENING, WE WILL HAVE A 12 NORMAL DAY TOMORROW FROM 9:30 TO 4:00. 13 WE WILL SEE YOU TOMORROW. 14 15 (AT 4:00 P.M., THE PROCEEDINGS WERE ADJOURNED 16 UNTIL WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 22, 1993 AT 9:30 A.M.) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 HARTOLDMON0042121 1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 2 FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES 3 DEPARTMENT NO. 31 HON. G. KEITH WISOT, JUDGE 4 5 TRANSWESTERN PIPELINE COMPANY, A DELAWARE CORPORATION, 6 PLAINTIFF- RESPONDENT, 7 VS . 8' MONSANTO COMPANY AND DOES 1 9 THROUGH 200, INCLUSIVE, ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) 10 DEFENDANTS- APPELLANTS. ) :) 11 NO. BC 026959 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 12 STATE OF CALIFORNIA 13 COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES ) ) SS . ) 14 15 I, DAVID ALAN SALYER, OFFICIAL REPORTER OF THE 16 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, FOR THE 17 COUNTY OF .LOS ANGELES, DO HEREBY CERTIFY THAT THE 18 FOREGOING PAGES, 3,683 THROUGH 3,872, INCLUSIVE, 19 COMPRISE A TRUE AND CORRECT TRANSCRIPT OF THE 20 PROCEEDINGS HELD IN THE ABOVE-ENTITLED MATTER, AS 2 1 DESIGNATED BY COUNSEL TO BE INCLUDED IN THE 22 TRANSCRIPT ON APPEAL, REPORTED BY ME ON December 21, 23 1993 . 24 DATED THIS _________DAY OF APRIL, 1994. 25 26 _______________________ . CSR # 4410 2 7 OFFICIAL REPORTER 28 HARTOLDMON0042122 HARTOLDMON0042123