Document 2j4rY3Kk4vVQOk71qLMBV9gvg

FILE NAME: Kelly Moore (KM) DATE: 2002 May 31 DOC#: KM048 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition of Herbert R. Giffins Page 1 1 NO. B-150,374-AK ] 2 WILLIAM L. COTTON, ET AL ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF i ) ! 3i ) | VS. ) JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS ] ) i 4 j A . P . GREEN REFRACTORIES ) 5 COMPANY, ET AL ) 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT j 6 NO. 41,862 j 7 VERDA SUTTON AND P.D. ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT \ SUTTON ) 7 \ 8 VS. 9 ACandS, INC., ET AL 10 ) \ ) HARDIN COUNTY, TEXAS I > ! ) 356TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT j i 11 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF i 12 HERBERT R. GIFFINS 13 MAY 31, 2002 14 15 VIDEOTAPED ORAL DEPOSITION OF HERBERT R. GIFFINS, 16 produced as a witness duly sworn by me at the i i 17 instance of the Plaintiffs, taken in the above 1 8 styled and numbered causes on the 31st of May, 2002, 19 from 10:06 a.m. to 7:02 p.m., before Kathy Miller, 20 Certified Shorthand Reporter No. 739 in and for the 21 State of Texas, at the offices of Brown McCarroll, 22 L.L.P., 2001 Ross Avenue, Suite 2000, Dallas, Texas, 23 75201 pursuant to the Texas Rules of Civil Procedure 2 4 and the provisions stated on the record or attached 25 therein. NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-203 a *-*** 1 APPEARANCES: 2 For the Plaintiffs: Mr. Brent W. Coon 3 Brent Coon & Associates 3550 Fannin Street 4 Beaumont, Texas 77701 5 For the Defendant A.O. Smith: Mr. Daniel Shusterman 6 Gerard Singer & Levick, P.C. 16200 Addison Road, Suite 140 7 Addison, Texas 75001 8 For the Defendant Cleaver-Brooks: Ms. Michelle D. Fuller 9 Sammons & Parker 11200 Westhehner, Suite 520 10 Houston, Texas 77042 11 For the Defendants Certainteed, Dana, and Union Carbide: 12 Mr. William C.Nantz Germer, Bemsen & Gertz, L.L.P. 13 333 Gay Street, Suite 4105 Houston, Texas 77002 14 For die Defendant Borg Warner 15 Mr. Mark D. Van Cleave The Baker Law Firm 16 12600 Featherwood, Suite 225 Houston, Texas 77034 17 For the Defendant Keliy-Moore Paint Company: 18 Mr. Scott P. Hazen Brown McCarroll, L.L.P. 19 2001 Ross Avenue, Suite 2000 Dallas, Texas 75201 20 For the Defendants Quigley and Pfizer 21 Mr. Larry W. Thorpe Beime, Maynard & Parsons, L.L.P. 22 1300 Post Oak Btvd., 25th Floor Houston, Texas 77056 23 24 25 Page 2 1 INDEX 2 PAGE 3 Appearances...................... 2 Stipulations..................... 8 4 HERBERT R. GIFFINS 5 Examinatton-Mr. Coon........... 9 6 ATTACHED DOCUMENTS 7 NO. DESCRIPTION REFERENCED KM 01129 Keliy-Moore Paint Company, 190 Inc. Brochure 64 KM 01019 ListofKelly-Moore Asbestos- 11 Containing Products 124 KM 01025- 12 KM 01041 Xerox copies of Paco Textures' Products, Labels, etc. 127 13 KM 01027 Cover Sheet, Mono-Spray 161 14 KM 01086 Paco Invoice, Intracompany 166 15 KM 01099 Document entitled, Keliy-Moore 16 Paint Company, Production and Sales (By Factory Location) Of 17 Drywall Products Containing Asbestos 181 18 KM 01020 Directions for use of various 19 Paco Compounds 220 20 KM 01018 Paco Textures, San Carlos, Raw Material Index 222 21 KM 01145 Summary, Occupational 22 Injuries and Illnesses 243 23 KM 01126 Keliy-Moore, Production and Sales (By Factory Location) of 24 Drywall Products Containing Asbestos -- 25 Page 4 1 APPEARANCES: 2 For the Defendants Kellogg and Brown & Root: Ms. Melinda Y. Balli 3 Mr. Randall Huntsinger Godwin Gruber, P.C. 4 1201 Elm Street, Suite 1700 Dallas, Texas 75270 5 For the Defendant Fluor. 6 Ms. Pamela Neale Williams Adams & Coffey, P.C. 7 222 West Las Colinas, Suite 1730 Irving, Texas 75039 8 For the Defendant 3M: 9 Ms. Cynthia Yanof Ms. Ann Phillips Haag 10 Thompson, Coe, Cousins & Irons, L.L.P. 200 Crescent Court, 11th Floor 11 Dallas, Texas 75201 12 T3 14 15 16 17 18 2109 21 22 23 24 25 Page 3 2 NO. ATTACHED DOCUMENTS DESCRIPTION REFERENCED 3 Ex. A Product Information Spreadsheet 241 4 KM 01239 Keliy-Moore Memo, to Doug Merrill from Svend Stubb, 5 Subject: Asbestos Use In Paint Products 254 6 KM 01058 Carey-Canadian Asbestos Letter 7 dated January 24,1972 258 8 KM 01022 Paco Textures Memo, Project Progress Report No. 4 259 9 KM 01056 Ketly-Moore Paint Company, 10 Servicing instructions 266 11 KM 01042 Letter dated June 6,1972 to 12 Walter Pickens from E. W, Spence 269 KM 01138 Paco Textures Memo, Re: Paco Status 13 Concerning OSHA Requirements for Asbestos Exposure 272 14 KM 01043 Paco Textures Memo, Re: Paco Status 15 Concerning OSHA Requirements for Asbestos Exposure -- 16 KM 01108 Paco Production Meeting, 10/30/72 273 17 KM 01236 Airborne Asbestos Fiber Counts, 18 dated November 13. 1973 279 19 KM 01257 Liberty Mutual Letter dated January 4,1973 274 20 21 KM 01061 Memo, Re: Paco Status Concerning OSHA Requirements For Asbestos Exposure 283 22 KM 01060 Paco Production Meeting, 23 February 28, 1972 289 24 KM 1002 Johns-Manville Sales Corporation Letter dated January 2,1974 293 25 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713)861-0203 2 (Pages 2 to 5) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 1 ATTACHED DOCUMENTS 2 NO. DESCRIPTION REFERENCED 3 KM 01014 Asbestos and Health Presentation Document, dated December 3-4, 1973 293 4 KM 01063 Paco Production Meeting, 5 September 30,1974 298 6 KM 01051 OSHAFile 298 7 KM 01110 Paco Memo, Subject: Non-Asbestos \ Drywall Products 299 8 KM 01137 Johns-Manville Corporation Letter, 9 dated July 15,1975 IO KM 01235 Airborne Fiber Counts, June 12, 1975 309 n KM 01096 Summary o f Airborne Asbestos 12 Fiber Counts - 13 KM 01095 Letter dated July 7,1975 to Doug Merrill from H.B. Rhodes -- 14 KM 01254 Liberty Mutual Letter 15 dated December 10, 1975 -- 16 KM 01253 Liberty Mutual Letter dated August 15, 1975 - 17 KM 01053 Paco Textures Letter dated 18 February 13,1976 to Michael Love from Douglas Merrill 315 19 20 February 13,1976 to Hughland Brinkley from Douglas Merrill 316 21 KM 01127 Liberty Mutual letter dated 22 March 18, 1976 317 23 KM 01094 Union Carbide Corporation letter dated May 11,1976 - 24 25 Page 6 Page 8 1 MR. COON: Take it pursuant to the 2 rules? 3 MR. HAZEN: Pursuant to the rules, 4 reserve objections as to form and responsiveness. 5 MS. WILLIAMS: Do we have an 6 objection made by one defendant is good for all 7 defendants? 8 MR. HAZEN: Good for all. 9 MR. COON: Sure. What I would like 10 to do when he is ready, we will get him sworn in and 11 just have the identity of those that showed up and 12 who they represent. 13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Everybody ready? 14 MR. HAZEN: Ready. 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: One moment. 16 We're on the record. The time is 10:08 a.m., May 17 31st, 2002, beginning of Tape 1. 18 HERBERT R. GIFFINS 19 having been first duly sworn to testify the truth, 20 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, 21 testified as follows: 22 MR. COON: For purposes of the 23 record we need the identity of the parties. Brent 24 Coon on behalf of plaintiffs. 25 MS. BALLI: Melinda Balli on behalf i ATTACHED DOCUMENTS 2 NO. DESCRIPTION REFERENCED 3 KM 01118 Natural Resources Defense Council letter dated 4 July 15, 1976 320 5 KM 01087 Johns-Manville Sales Corporation letter dated August 23, 1976 6 KM 01161 Paco Memo dated October 8,1976 321 KM 01050 Paco Memo dated January 27, 1977 326 8 KM 01159 Harrisons & Crosfield (Pacific) Inc. Invoice 327 10 KM 01093 Calidria Asbestos, Union Carbide Letter dated May 27, 1977 336 11 KM 01091 Calidria Asbestos, Union Carbide 12 Letter dated December 22, 1977 334 13 KM 01233 Kelly-Moore Memo dated 1/23/78 331 14 KM 01244 Paco Textures Memo dated November 6,1972 - 15 KM 01057 EPA Proposed Rule Making, also 16 marked Plaintiff's Ex. 10, 17 12/7/99 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 7 Page 9 1 of Kellogg and Brown & Root Inc. 2 MS. YANOF: Cindy Yanof here on 3 behalf of 3M Company. 4 MS. WILLIAMS: Pam Williams here for 5 Fluor, F L U O R . 6 MR. THORPE: Larry Thorpe here for 7 Quigley and Pfizer. 8 MS. FULLER: Michelle Fuller here 9 for Cleaver-Brooks. 10 MR. VANCLEAVE: Mark VanCleave here 11 for Borg Warner. 12 MR. NANTZ: Bill Nantz here for 13 Certainteed, Union Carbide and Dana. 14 MR. SHUSTERMAN: Dan Shusterman, A&O 15 Schwarz -- Smith. 16 MR. HAZEN: Scott Hazen on behalf of 17 Kelly-Moore Paint Company. 18 MR. COON: Ready to proceed? 19 THE REPORTER: Ready. 20 EXAMINATION 21 BY MR. COON: 22 Q. Good morning, Mr. GifFins. 23 A. Good morning. 24 Q . Could I h a v e y o u in tro d u c e y o u r s e lf to th e 25 Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury by stating your NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 3 (Pages 6 to 9) 367fifiQ?n-7fi1r - . i 1r t R . a r . 1 r. m n / J Page 10 j Page 12 \ 1 full name and address, please, sir? 1 A. Yes, sir. | 2 A. My name is Herbert Ronald Giffins, that's 2 Q. And what is your title, sir? ! 3 spelled G I F F I N S . My home address is 7004 3 A. My current title is president, Southwest 1 4 Orchard Hill Court, Colleyville, Texas, 76034. 4 Division. | 5 Q. Mr. Giffins, where is Colleyville? 5 Q. And what does the Southwest Division J 6 A. It's about midway between Dallas and Fort 6 encompass? j 7 Worth, going west from here. 7 A. It takes in basically Texas, Oklahoma, 8 Q. My firm has noticed to the attorneys for 8 Colorado, Arkansas and Arizona. j 9 Kelly-Moore a -- what is called a corporate 9 Q. Mr. Giffins, how many times in the past I 10 representative, or a person to be a spokesperson for 10 before today have you given any type of testimony j 11 the company, with respect to some asbestos-related 11 regarding an asbestos-related matter? [ 12 matters, and you are the person that Kelly-Moore has 12 A. Probably, I'd say, four, maybe five times. I 13 presented this morning in that regard, and so I want 13 Q. And how far back do those go? J 14 to ask you some background questions first before we 14 A. My first one would have been October. It 15 get into the substantive discussion this morning. 15 would have been in the --probably the fall of 2001. I 16 First, have you had an opportunity to be a 16 Q. I take it you have had three or four 1 17 spokesperson for Kelly-Moore in any matters in the 17 others since then, before today? 1 18 past, as a --what you would call a corporate 18 A. Yes, sir. Yes. 1 19 representative? 19 Q. Did you give your testimony by deposition j 20 A. In matters relating to what, sir? 20 like you're doing today, or were one or more o f j 21 Q. Just any type o f matters. 21 those involving trial testimony where you went to a 1 22 A. Yes. 22 courthouse? I 23 Q. Could you just give me a general summary 23 A. They were depositions, sir. 1 24 o f the type of matters you have been involved as a 24 Q. Were they all matters involving a person 1 25 corporate spokesperson for Kelly-Moore in the past? 25 who claimed an asbestos-related injury? 1 Page 11 Page 13 j 1 A. Primarily related to the asbestos 2 involvement with Paco. 3 Q. Any circumstances other than being a 4 representative for Kelly-Moore in asbestos-related 5 matters? 6 A. I've represented the company in -- at 7 meetings, and things like that. I am not sure I 8 understand your question entirely. 9 Q. Okay. Let me bifurcate it then. With 10 respect to litigation matters, have you been a 11 corporate spokesperson for cor --Kelly-Moore in 12 anything other than asbestos-related matters? 13 A. No, sir. 14 Q. And other than the asbestos-related 15 matters, have you been a spokesperson for 16 Kelly-Moore on any other type o f litigation of a 17 corporate nature, or anything like that? 18 A. I was involved years ago in a couple 19 depositions. One had to do with a -- a product that 20 was sold through one o f our stores, and then another 21 deposition had to do with a -- a trial, had to do 22 with an employee at one of the stores that we had 23 acquired. 24 Q. And you are presently employed by 25 Kelly-Moore, correct? 1 A. Yes, sir. j 2 Q. Did they all involve a claim by the f 3 individual to exposure to asbestos-containing | 4 materials made at some point in time in the past by I 5 Kelly-Moore? 6 A. The depositions were to address those 7 issues, yes. 8 Q. Were all o f those claims pending here in 9 Texas, or were they outside o f Texas? 10 A. There are some outside o f Texas. 1 11 Q. Could you tell me what other states you 1 12 have given case testimony in? 1 13 A. I believe there is one related to 1 14 California, and I-- you have --the problem lam 1 15 having, a lot of these were all bunched together. 16 Q. Yes, sir. 17 A. I had, like, two or three, so they may 18 have -- some o f those may have been with the Texas, 19 or --and at the same time related to a California 20 case, but I believe there was a California case, and 21 then there was probably one in Michigan, or 22 somewhere up in that area. 1 23 Q. Before your testimony today, did you have 1 24 an opportunity to go back and review the prior 1 25 deposition transcripts you have given? I NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 4 (Pages 10 to 13) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1c-00045a4bdea7 Page 14 Page 16 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Is there anything else that you had an 3 opportunity to review, to assist you in testifying 4 today, other than those depositions? 5 A. I've gone through the documents that I 6 1 believe that you were provided. There were about 7 six boxes of documents that you were provided. I -- 8 I went through those. I went through the 9 depositions as I had mentioned. That was basically 10 it. 11 Q. Mr. Giffins, are you aware generally of 12 the history of Kelly-Moore with respect to 13 asbestos-related litigation? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Are you aware of persons being designated 16 as a corporate representative of Kelly-Moore prior 17 to yourself? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Could you tell me the names of those 20 persons that you know of as having been the 21 corporate representative or the spokesperson for 22 Kelly-Moore before you took over that role in 2001 ? 23 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. Go 24 ahead. 25 A. I'm familiar with Doug Merrill, obviously. 1 A. In 1978. 2 Q. And do you know when they acquired that 3 facility? 4 A. In'78. Oh, when Kelly-Moore - 5 Q. Yes, sir. 6 A. -d id ? 7 Q. Yes, sir. 8 A. The Kelly-Moore --originally in Broken 9 Arrow, they opened that facility in 1975, and prior 10 to that, though, they --the location was in Tulsa, 11 and they opened that in '69. So, in tracking it 12 back, it would have been '69 in Tulsa, '75 they 13 moved to Broken Arrow. 14 Q. How about Frederick Marquardt? Do you 15 know Frederick Marquardt? 16 A. I'm not familiar with that name. 17 Q. Okay. How about Patrick McDonald? 18 A. Yes, I'm familiar with Patrick. 19 Q. How is it you know Patrick McDonald? 20 A. He is our vice president of human 21 resources and auditing. 22 Q. Still employed there, I take it? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Have you had an opportunity to review any 25 of his prior deposition or trial transcripts Page 15 Page 17 1 He's probably the most recent. And as far as I 2 know, he was the only one that was primarily 3 representing the company in these asbestos issues. 4 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. Is it your 5 understanding that Doug Merrill was the --what you 6 would call the principal point person for these 7 types o f matters before yourself? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Did you know a Doyle Freeman? 10 A. Bill Freeman? 11 Q. I just have Doyle Freeman. Do you know a 12 Doyle? 13 A. I think it's William Doyle Freeman. 14 Q. And I take it you do know -- 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. --at least William Doyle? How is it you 17 know him? 18 A. Mr. Freeman owns the Freeman Drywall 19 Company, in Broken Arrow, Oklahoma, and he had 20 purchased that --the assets of that company from 21 Kelly-Moore. 22 Q. And when was that a Kelly-Moore facility? 23 Do you know what years? 24 A. When it was last a Kelly-Moore facility? 25 Q. Yes, sir. 1 regarding these matters? 2 A. Sure have. 3 Q. And what about Mr. Merrill, have you 4 reviewed any of his prior transcripts? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. Have you had an opportunity to discuss 7 generally with him the --the nature of the 8 questions that he was asked, and what your roles may 9 be as a corporate spokesperson for Kelly-Moore? 10 A. Sure have. 11 Q. Have you had an opportunity to talk to 12 other individuals at Kelly-Moore with respect to 13 assisting you in generally --just preparing 14 yourself for being a spokesperson in these matters? 15 A. I have talked to ex-employees of 16 Kelly-Moore, yes, sir. 17 Q. Could you give me a general idea of the -- 18 the types of things that you did to help prepare 19 yourself, outside of discussions that you had with 20 attorneys for Kelly-Moore? 21 A. You want a time line or do you just 22 want -- 23 Q. Yes, sir. Generally you can just tell us. 24 I mean, we know that you're the spokesperson. 25 You've had an opportunity to review a number of NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 5 (Pages 14 to 17) Page 18 Page 20 1 boxes of documents that Kelly-Moore has regarding 1 with them was to find out what they knew, and so I 2 these issues. You have had an opportunity to give a 2 could tie the whole --tie the whole thing together. | 3 few prior depositions. You have been able to read 3 Q. With respect to each o f these gentlemen, 4 your prior depositions. You have also been able to 4 first Mr. Winslow - 5 talk to some other Kelly-Moore persons that you have 5 A. John Winslow? 6 identified, as well as review their transcripts. 6 Q. Yes, sir. When and where did you have an j 7 And I am saying in addition to that, if you could 7 opportunity to meet with him? 8 just kind o f give us a summary o f what your other 8 A. It would have probably been in the fall of 9 sources o f information or preparation for these 9 2001, because I didn't start talking to the j 10 types o f proceedings would entail. 10 individuals until about that time. 11 A. Okay. I think the best way to do it is to 11 Q. And what was his title that would have j 12 track back how long I have been involved, because a 12 caused you to solicit him for additional | 13 lot o f this has transpired since basically April of 13 information? j 14 2001. That was when I was first asked to get 14 A. When he left the company, he was vice 15 involved, and it wasn't until about, oh, I'd say, 15 president of store operations, and prior to that, he | 16 August or fall of 2001 that I was involved in a -- 16 had held norm - numerous positions, starting out as j 17 from a - a regular routine. Up until that point it 17 a salesman; and at one time, he was also the sales j 18 was a hit and miss. 18 manager for the company. I 19 Since then, I have talked to four or five 19 Q. Where does he reside now? j 20 ex-employees, interviewed them on a one-to-one 20 A. He's retired and he lives in northern 21 basis. 21 California. I want to say Petaluma area. 22 Q. Can you give us the identity o f those 22 Q. Did you have an opportunity to personally 23 persons? 23 meet with him, orjust by phone calls? 24 A. Sure. 24 A. No, I have met with him personally, sir. 25 Q. Do you recall who they were? 25 Q. Okay. More than one occasion? Page 19 Page 21 1 A. John Winslow, Mr. Don Scranton, Mr. Bill 2 Harrison, Mr. Freeman, Bill Freeman. There was a 3 Tom --I can't think o f his last name now. I can't 4 think o f his last name. There was an ex-employee. 5 It will come to me. 6 Q. Okay. Did you take any recorded 7 statements or any other kind of written notes with 8 respect to your meetings with those individuals? 9 A. I took my own notes, as I met with them, 10 yes. 11 Q. And do you still have those notes? 12 A. I do have them. 13 Q. Are they with Kelly-Moore, their 14 attorneys, or do you keep them in your personal 15 possession? 16 A. I had them --they were in my personal 17 possession. 18 Q. Briefly, with respect to each o f these 19 gentlemen, why is it that you sought them out, and 20 what was the nature o f the discussions? 21 A. Primarily, because at the time, they were 22 either in sales or a management position with 23 Kelly-Moore during the period that Kelly-Moore owned 24 Paco, and they may have had some indirect 25 involvement, or whatever, and my purpose o f meeting 1 A. One. 2 Q. One? 3 A. Personally I have met with him once. I 4 have talked to him one or two times since then over 5 the phone asking him a question, but my personal 6 meeting with him was only once. | 7 Q. Okay. Did you know him before looking him I 8 up for these purposes, as just being another j 9 Kelly-Moore employee? 10 A. I had met -- when he left Kelly-Moore, he 1 11 went to work for some of our suppliers as a -- as a | 12 manufacturer's rep, and I had met him or got to know j 13 him that way first. 1 14 Q. Okay. Since we're going to go through a 1 15 number o f your former employees and people that you 1 16 may have had dealings with as an employee of I 17 Kelly-Moore, probably need to back up real briefly. | 18 Could you tell us just real briefly, you know, where | 19 you grew up, and how you got involved with I 20 Kelly-Moore? If you had employment before 1 21 Kelly-Moore, what it was, and then once you got - 1 22 A. Sure. 1 23 Q. --to Kelly-Moore if you can kind o f walk 1 24 us through the chains o f progression -- 1 25 A. Sure. 1 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 6 (Pages 18 to 21) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 22 Page 24 1 Q. --and promotion? 2 A. Very happy to. I was bom and raised in 3 southern New Jersey. I attended private school 4 through high school. Went on for two years in the 5 seminary for religious education. Left that after 6 \ two years, went to work for a summer for Chrysler 7 Corporation on the assembly line, while I decided 8 what I wanted to do. Then, went to work for 9 Sherwin-Williams Paint Company, spent about 24 years 10 -- 24 and a half years with them in various 11 positions. 12 Q. What year would that have been that you 13 started at Sherwin-Williams? 14 A. '61. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. I graduated from high school in '57. 17 Q. Okay. And you were with Sherwin-Williams 18 -- 19 A. Either'60 o r'61. 20 Q. You were with Sherwin-Williams from '61 to 21 about '85? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. And could you briefly tell us the roles 24 and responsibilities you had in your two-decade 25 tenure with Sherwin-Williams? 1 ownership, but oversaw the entire operation of the 2 store as far as sales, operations, and accounting. 3 Q. We're talking about Sherwin-Williams, 4 we're talking about the national chain that most 5 people know about. 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Paint stores? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Wallpapers? 10 A. Right. 11 Q. And you retired from there in 1985? 12 A. I - - 1didn't retire. I --I left. 13 Q. Okay. And what was the purpose of leaving 14 that company in 1985? 15 A. I was approached by Kelly-Moore to join 16 their organization. 17 Q. Was this something where you were sought 18 out by them, or you sought them out, or -- 19 A. Sort of. 20 Q. --kind of mutual? 21 A. Sort of. The --the president of the 22 company at the time knew me from Sherwin-Williams. 23 Q. And who was that gentleman? 24 A. Joe Christiano. He's our current 25 president and C.E.O. Page 23 Page 25 1 A. I started out as an assistant --what we 2 call --they called in those days a credit manager 3 in one of their stores, and credit managers were 4 primarily assistant managers. And I started out in 5 a small store in Pennsylvania. I worked there a 6 couple years, then went to a larger store in 7 Pennsylvania. I was promoted to a larger store. 8 From there I went to their regional office and 9 worked in real estate and store planning. Spent a 10 couple o f years doing that, and then was promoted to 11 their corporate headquarters in Cleveland, whereby I 12 was part of a start-up store planning department, 13 where we designed stores and signage and that type 14 o f thing. And from there tried --went on to 15 different other departments, different positions in 16 sales and in operations. And ultimately when I left 17 Sherwin-Williams in '85,1 was a district manager 18 for them in the bay area, Northern California. 19 Q. And what were your responsibilities at 20 that time? 21 A. As a district manager? 22 Q. Yes, sir. 23 A. Primarily responsible for about 13 stores. 24 At that time, the way they were structured is the 25 district managers had filli ownership, or not 1 Q. And where did the two of you meet? 2 A. Oh, boy. You're really testing my memory 3 here. We first met --he was a personnel manager 4 for the North Central Division o f the 5 Sherwin-Williams Company, and I think -- 6 Q. Okay. So you knew him first as a 7 Sherwin-Williams -- 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. - coworker? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. And, so, you --you knew him way back when 12 as another employee at Sherwin-Williams, then 13 apparently he left Sherwin-Williams at some point in 14 time prior to you to go to work at Kelly-Moore? 15 A. Correct. And he and I had crossed paths 16 over the years during my 24 plus years with SW, and 17 --in different venues. 18 Q. Do you know if he had made overtures with 19 respect to other Sherwin-Williams employees to come 20 to work at Kelly-Moore? 21 A. Uh-huh. Sure did. 22 Q. Do you have any idea generally the --the 23 number, the type o f people he was looking for to 24 come to work over there? 25 A. If I can describe Mr. Christiano, he -- he NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 7 (Pages 22 to 25) 36766920-761c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 26 Page 28 1 looks for people that are hardworking, honest, and 2 dedicated to get the job done. 3 Q. And do you know - 4 A. If that's what you're asking. 5 Q. Yeah, generally. And do you know, how 6 Mr. Christiano ended up going to work at 7 Kelly-Moore? 8 A. I know the story, yes. 9 Q. Okay. What's the story? 10 A. Sherwin-Williams at the time was trying to 11 buy Kelly-Moore Paint Company. 12 Q. When was this? 13 A. This probably would have been in the early 14 '80s. I can't give you the exact time. Now, I am 15 telling you a story third-hand because this is what 16 Mr. Christiano told me. 17 Q. Okay. We got to know how he got hired, 18 huh? 19 A. Yeah. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. John Green, who was at the time the 22 president o f the Sherwin-Williams Company, wanted to 23 buy Kelly-Moore, and h sent Mr. Christiano, who was 24 the regional director for the West Coast, over to 25 meet with Mr. Moore, and that's how Mr. Moore and 1 A. Mr. Moore was president prior to that. 2 Q. Okay. So, he hires Mr. Christiano from ) 3 Sherwin-Williams to essentially take over his title? 4 A. Correct, sir. 5 Q. And what happened to Mr. Moore after that? I 6 Did he take a senior status or is there a C.E.O. | 7 status above the president or -- | 8 A. He took a senior status, and I believe for j 9 a while was the C.E.O. 1 10 Q. And then after Mr. Christiano was working ! 11 at Kelly-Moore, he from time to time would go back 12 to people he knew at Sherwin-Williams and offer them ! 13 jobs? 14 A. I can only tell you - - 1 can only tell you 15 that he and I had made contact, and I know that he ! 16 and Mr. McDonald made contact. Other than that, I j 17 can't tell you who else he may have talked to. s 18 Q. Okay. Is this the Mr. Patrick McDonald 1 19 you told us about earlier? j 20 A. Yes, sir. 1 21 Q. So he was also a former Sherwin-Williams 1 22 employee? I 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Do you know if many employees at this same I 25 time frame were jumping ship, so to speak, from ! Page 27 Page 29 1 1 Mr. Christiano met, and from that relationship, I 2 believe, Mr. Moore offered him a job. 3 Q. Got to be careful who you send to 4 negotiate, huh? 5 A. That's correct, sir. 6 Q. Okay. So, Mr. Christiano went over to, as 7 I understand, talk to Mr. Moore about selling out, 8 and instead was talked into coming to work for 9 Kelly-Moore? 10 A. That's correct, in basic terms. 11 Q. And about what year was this? 12 A. I would have to say it would have been 13 early '80s because I came --I went to Kelly-Moore 14 in '85, and Joe had been there -- Mr. Christiano had 15 been there two to three years prior to that, so it 16 had to transpire somewhere around '80, '81 but the 17 initial contact, I'm assuming, was made. 18 Q. Okay. Do you know what position 19 Mr. Christiano took when he came to work for 20 Kelly-Moore in the early '80s? 21 A. Uh-huh. He went over as president. 22 Q. President of Kelly-Moore? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Was this the role that Mr. Moore had prior 25 to that? 1 Kelly-Moore to go to work for Sherwin-Williams at J 2 that -- at that same level of management? j 3 A. Some o f that was going on. I can't tell I 4 you for what other reasons, for all the reasons, 1 5 but, yeah, there was a little bit of change going on I 6 at the time. I 7 Q. Okay. Was Sherwin-Williams considered to I 8 be a competitor o f Kelly-Moore at that time frame? 1 9 A. You could say that - - 1think I 10 Sherwin-Williams looked at Kelly-Moore more as a I 11 competitor than Kelly-Moore looked at I 12 Sherwin-Williams as a competitor. I 13 Q. Who were the other competitors in the 1 14 market at that time? I 15 A. It and -- what -- what market? I 16 Q. Just in the markets both of them were in. 1 17 I guess we're talking principally paint, are we not? f 18 A. Correct. I 19 Q. Okay. Let's first talk about the paints. 1 20 A. Well, Kelly-Moore was -- when I came with I 21 the company in '85, is broad. It's over many 1 22 states, so there's numerous competitors. If you're I 23 talking about who was Kelly-Moore's competitor in I 24 the bay area, that's going to be different than who I 25 was -- Kelly-Moore's competitor was in Texas and I NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 8 (Pages 26 to 29) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 30 Page 32 1 that type of deal. 2 Q. So they had a lot o f regional competitors 3 as opposed to national competitors? 4 A. There are nationals such as 5 Sherwin-Williams and Glidden, were involved, but, 6. then, yes, there were regional-type individuals. 7 Q. Okay. Is Glidden the only one that comes 8 to mind as another national competitor to 9 Sherwin-Williams and Kelly-Moore? 10 A. Benjamin Moore comes to mind. 11 Q. Okay. Anyone else? 12 A. Nothing rings a bell. 13 Q. Okay. When you went to work at 14 Kelly-Moore in '85 -- 15 A. '85. 16 Q. --what were the product lines that were 17 made or manufactured by Kelly-Moore at that time? 18 We know mostly paints, correct? 19 A. Well, that's basically all that 20 Kelly-Moore manufactured was paint. 21 Q. And what type of paints? We know house 22 paints, interior, exterior. Do they also have 23 industrial paints? Commercial grade paints? 24 A. No, Kelly-Moore is primarily what we 25 classify as an architectural house, and makes paints 1 how to make a duck, a kitten, or something, and then 2 paint it and put it in an oven or something. 3 Q. More ornamental ceramics as opposed to 4 tiles? 5 A. Yes. Correct. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. And they were in the mining business at 8 one time, but this was all prior to me. The ceramic 9 business was sold not long after I came with the 10 company. 11 Q. Where were their mining operations? Did 12 you say mining? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. What type of mining? 15 A. Minerals. 16 Q. What type of minerals? 17 A. Different types of things that may have 18 been used in coatings, or those types of compounds. 19 Q. Are we talking about silvers, platinums? 20 Asbestos is a mineral. We talking about asbestos? 21 A. No, it was not an asbestos-type material. 22 It was more --I want to say like calcium or --they 23 were --just minerals that were mined that primarily 24 could be used in coatings. Nonhazardous-type 25 materials. Page 31 Page 33 1 for residential, commercial-type use. 2 Since I have been there, I am not aware that we 3 ever were in the industrial coatings. At one time 4 they did manufacture some lacquers, but that was 5 quite some time ago. 6 Q. Okay. Now, we also know that they made a 7 number of textures and joint compounds at one point 8 in time. 9 A. That is correct. 10 Q. And as o f the time you went to work there 11 in the mid '80s, was Kelly-Moore continuing to 12 manufacture those types of product lines? 13 A. No, sir. 14 Q. Do you know when they got out o f the 15 manufacture or distribution of those types of 16 product lines? 17 A. Shut down the operation in 1982. 18 Q. Okay. From 1985 to the present, has 19 Kelly-Moore been involved in the manufacturing of 20 other product lines outside paints? 21 A. Well, when I --at one time they owned a 22 ceramic company. 23 Q. Is that for ceramic tiles, floor tiles, 24 wall tiles? 25 A. That was ceramics like you go and learn 1 Q. Okay. Do you know where these mines were 2 located? 3 A. There was one up in Sacramento, California 4 area, Tulsa. 5 Q. Okay. And were these using the raw 6 materials, or the raw minerals that they were mining 7 out of this in some of their own product lines? 8 A. I believe there was one or two items that 9 they were using, but most of it was being sold on 10 the secondary market. 11 Q. Do you know what they were using in their 12 own products? Was this something they were using in 13 their joint Compounds or paints? 14 A. I do not believe it was used in the joint 15 compounds. I believe it was more --went into the 16 paint product itself. 17 Q. Okay. Did Kelly-Moore have the facilities 18 to produce their own raw materials for their paints, 19 or were those typically supplied by outside vendors? 20 A. Typically supplied by outside vendors. 21 Q. Did they have any of their own, what you 22 would call manufacturing facilities, to make some of 23 the actual different ingredients that went into the 24 paints? 25 A. Only thing that we did make for a while NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 9 (Pages 30 to 33) RR7fifiQ20-7fi1 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 34 Page 36 j 1 was latex. We manufactured our own latex. 1 do have other than the ones you just named? Talked 2 Q. And with respect to the joint compounds 2 about Washington, California, Oregon? 3 that were made at some points in the past, did 3 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. j 4 Kelly-Moore ever make any o f the raw ingredients for 4 A. Yeah. j 5 those products? 5 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Do you know if they're in 6 A. No. Everything was purchased from an 6 Oregon? 7 outside source. 7 A. Uh-huh. 8 Q. Okay. Once you were at Kelly-Moore in 8 Q. Do you have stores in Oregon? 9 '85, could you give us a brief summary o f the 9 A. Yeah, we are. 10 different jobs you had over the next 15 years, and 10 Q. Nevada? 11 what each of those roles would have entailed? 11 A. Yes. 12 A. When I came to work with Kelly-Moore in 12 Q. Utah? 13 1985,1 was brought in as a merchandise manager, 13 A. No. 14 what was called a merchandise manager, and I was 14 Q. Idaho? 15 responsible for the buying of the nonpaint items 15 A. Yes. 16 that went into the Kelly-Moore paint stores. 16 Q. Colorado? 17 Q. Is this like paint brushes, rollers? 17 A. Yes. 18 A. Brushes. 18 Q. Arizona? I 19 Q. Trays? 19 A. Yes. 20 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Texas? j 21 Q. Tarps, all that stuff? 21 A. Yes, sir. I 22 A. Correct. 22 Q. Oklahoma still? J 23 Q. Okay. 23 A. Yes, sir. 1 24 A. And then I was also in charge o f the 24 Q. Arkansas? j 25 advertising department. 25 A. Yes. I Page 35 Page 37 | 1 Q. Was this advertising nationally or 1 Q. Louisiana? 2 locally? 2 A. No. 3 A. Well, we're a regional company, so it 3 Q. Okay. So you generally don't go east of 4 would have just have covered the regional needs of 4 Texas? J 5 the company. 5 A. No, sir. 6 Q. Okay. And when we're talking about 6 Q. Do you go south o f Texas? Do you do 7 Kelly-Moore being a regional company, what do you 7 anything down in Mexico? 8 mean? 8 A. No. I 9 A. It's -- it doesn't --we don't market 9 Q. Do you do anything outside o f the United 1 10 nationally. We don't go from coast to coast, north 10 States anywhere? 1 11 to south -- 11 A. As far as company stores? I 12 Q. Okay. 12 Q. Yes, sir. 1 13 A. --primarily. We're basically - you can 13 A. No, sir. I 14 almost right now draw a line down from the State of 14 Q. What about just sales? 1 15 Colorado down into Texas and look at us as being 15 A. A few years -- couple years ago they 1 16 west o f that. 16 started selling some material to China. That's done I 17 Q. Would you say just generically, 17 through an export. 1 18 geographically, mostly the southwestern United 18 Q. Okay. All right. So, anyway, I'm sorry, 19 States? 19 we're jumping around again. We're '85 20 A. No. Because it goes all --we have stores 20 merchandising? 21 in --in Washington state; we have stores in 21 A. Right. 22 California, in Colorado. So - we don't have them 22 Q. Then what? 23 in New Mexico, but pretty much we're a western 23 A. And then two years later, I was promoted 1 24 company. 24 to vice president o f store operations. 1 25 Q. Okay. Have --do you know what states you 25 Q. A n d what did that in v o lv e ? I NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 10 (Pages 34 to 37) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 38 Page 40 1 A. That involved management --management or 2 overseeing of all of the company-owned stores as far 3 as the operations end of it, and that involved the 4 hiring of the people, the training of the people, 5 the setting up of the stores, the design of th 6. stores, anything to do with an operational part of 7 the store. 8 Q. And after that? 9 A. And after that, I did that until about 10 1994, when I also took on some responsibility as 11 president of acquisition in the northwest. And then 12 in '96, January o f '96,1 came down to Texas, to 13 Hurst, as President of the Southwest Division. 14 Q. And the title there is President of the 15 Southwest Division? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Is that the title you still hold? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And how many different divisions are there 20 within Kelly-Moore? 21 A. There's two separate operating divisions: 22 The Southwest, and Pacific. 23 Q. And what is your territory as president of 24 the Southwest Division? 25 A. As I mentioned earlier, it takes in Texas, 1 A. Up until four years ago, it was all 2 privately owned by Mr. Moore, and he sold a portion 3 of it to the employees about four years ago. 4 Q. And do you know what percentage of the 5 shares he released back to the employees? 6 A. About 42 percent. 7 Q. Were all employees eligible for -- 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. And did they just buy shares for a price 10 that he set or was it distributed based on seniority 11 or how did that work? 12 A. No, it's put into a - it's a retirement 13 account basically, and then you get so many shares. 14 Q. Is this kind of like a ESOP program? 15 A. ESOP, yes, sir. 16 Q. And your shares are acquired through 17 contributions, and merit and seniority, or 18 combination? 19 A. It's all based, I believe on --I think 20 the program is based on your salary. You get so 21 many shares based on your salary. 22 Q. And do you know how the shares are fixed 23 in terms o f value? 24 A. I do not. 25 Q. Is there any floating scale of the value? Page 39 Page 41 1 Colorado, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Arizona. I think 2 that's it. 3 Q. Okay. And Pacific Division is 4 predominantly, I guess, California, Oregon and 5 Washington? 6 A. Pacific would cover Nevada; Oregon; 7 Seattle, Washington; and Northern California. 8 Q. Has this geographic territory been 9 relatively stable over the last couple of decades? 10 A. Geographic, are you talking about 11 Southwest, or -- 12 Q. Yes, sir. No. Both. Have you-all 13 expanded or contracted, generally speaking, or 14 stayed the same? 15 A. Oh, we've expanded. 16 Q. Okay. What do you do now as president of 17 the Southwest Division? 18 A. My responsibilities primarily are the 19 bottom line profitability o f the entire division, 20 and that causes me to interface with the other 21 departments such as operations, sales, and 22 accounting, and the factory, to achieve that 23 objective. 24 Q. Okay. Is Kelly-Moore publicly or 25 privately held? 1 A. It's re-evaluated every year. I do know 2 that, because we get a new statement every June or 3 so which indicates what the value of the shares are. 4 Q. And do we have any idea what the total 5 asset of the 42 percent of the shares is estimated 6 to be? 7 A. I couldn't tell you that, sir. 8 Q. Are we talking, I assume, millions of 9 dollars? 10 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 11 A. I couldn't - - 1 really couldn't tell you. 12 I mean, I was --you know, anything I tell you would 13 be an assumption. 14 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. Do you have any idea 15 what your stake in the company is as a shareholder? 16 A. My personal? 17 Q. Yes, sir. 18 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 19 A. I have a - an idea of what it was a year 20 ago. I don't know what it is today. 21 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. Let's go a year ago. 22 We understand market volatility. 23 A. Yeah. Very much so. 24 Q. But, a year ago could you give us just 25 generally a rough estimate? NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 11 (Pages 38 to 41) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea Page 42 I Page 44 j 1 A. Of the dollar value? 1 A. All -- all employees. 1 2 Q. Yes, sir, just in terms of shares, shares 2 Q. If Kelly-Moore went bankrupt, went out of j 3 times value. 3 business, or whatever, for whatever reasons, your j 4 MR. HAZEN: Mr. Giffins, I'm going 4 -- the shares that you have set aside as part o f 1 5 to object to the form of the question. I am going 5 your retirement under your ESOP, would then have j 6 to advise you that divulging your personal finances 6 nominal or no value? j 7 within the company is not something that you're here 7 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 1 8 to give in your deposition today. So you can choose 8 A. I don't know all the legal issues about i 9 to divulge that information, or if you wish, on your 9 that type of thing, but it sounds logical. | 10 own decision. 10 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. f 11 THE WITNESS: Actually I prefer not 11 A. But I can't tell you for sure what the j 12 to, but I mean if I have to, I will. 12 legal issues are. j 13 MR. COON: Okay. We agree you don't 13 Q. Okay. Is there a listing o f - - with the | 14 have to if your attorney instructs you not to, but I 14 various persons that are in management at j 15 would -- our level o f inquity there, I'm not 15 Kelly-Moore, what their titles are, and what they j 16 typically interested in anybody's personal assets, 16 make? Is that something that's available to all the i 17 sir. The reason that we're looking into it is 17 employees? 1 18 because it may lead to some issues with respect to 18 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 1 19 your opinions in the matter, if you have a vested 19 A. I have never seen anything like that. I 2 0 interest in the company that you're testifying for, 20 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. Is there a --a I 21 so for those reasons we believe it to be relevant. 21 board? Is there ~ could you tell me basically how I 22 MR. HAZEN: Again, Mr. Giffins, I'm 2 2 the structure works? Is there an operating board 23 going to caution you. I'm going to let you make 23 for Kelly-Moore? . 24 your decision whether you choose to divulge that 24 A. There is a board o f directors for 25 information or not, but I'm going to advise you that 25 Kelly-Moore. Page 43 Page 45 1 you're under no compulsion to divulge that 2 information. 3 A. Just from a personal thing, I don't see 4 what that's got to do with what we're talking about. 5 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. Fair enough. Let me 6 just ask a couple other questions, then. I won't -- 7 we understand you don't want to answer that one 8 right now. 9 Is your retirement based in part, as I 10 understand, on the shares that Mr. Moore has 11 distributed to the employees, which would include 12 you? 13 A. The ESOP program provides a retirement 14 vehicle, yes. 15 Q. Okay. And if Kelly-Moore continues to 16 remain profitable, your retirement would be worth 17 more than if Kelly-Moore is for whatever reasons 18 unprofitable? 19 A. Well, from my personal retirement, yes, 2 0 because there is no retirement program at 21 Kelly-Moore. 22 Q. Right. 23 A. The ESOP provides the employees the 24 ability to have a --a viable retirement program. 25 Q. Sure. 1 Q. Okay. Do you know who is on the board of 2 directors? 3 A. I know a couple o f the people that are on 4 there. I know of a couple o f people that are on 5 there. 6 Q. Are they all employees o f Kelly-Moore? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Are any of them employees o f Kelly-Moore? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do you know any o f the individuals who are 11 not members of Kelly-Moore who still have a board 12 position there? 13 A. Would you repeat that again, please? 14 Q. Yes. Do you know --there are people -- 15 as I understand, you know there are people on the 16 Kelly-Moore board that are not Kelly-Moore 17 employees. 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. Do you know who they are and what they do? 1 20 A. They're family. 21 Q. Okay. I am just trying to find out why 2 2 they would have people on the board that aren't 23 employed there. You just answered that. 24 A. They're family. 25 Q. Family members? NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 12 (Pages 42 to 45) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 . Page 46 Page 48 *; l A. Yeah. 2 Q. This is family members of Mr. Moore? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. The founder? 5 A. Yes. 6. ( Q. Is there a Kelly, a Mr. Kelly in the 7 Kelly-Moore? 8 A. There used to be, he's since deceased. 9 Q. Oh, so if we were to go back on the 10 history of Kelly-Moore, you had Mr. Kelly and 11 Mr. Moore and they formed the company known as 12 Kelly-Moore? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. And Mr. Moore became the president at some 15 point in time and then he hired Mr. Christiano to 16 replace him a number of years ago? 17 A. That's correct. Basically. 18 Q. Mr. Christiano still holds that title? 19 A. He's president and C.E.O. 20 Q. Okay. He is president and C.E.O. now? 21 Who do you report to? 22 A. Mr. Christiano. 23 Q. And who has the same hat that you do on 24 the Pacific Division? 25 A. There is no one else. 1 combat. He was in the Navy during the second world ] 2 war, and he came back to the bay area, started the j 3 company. Hooked up with Mr. Kelly, who at that time 4 had retired from the Glidden Paint Company, and \ 5 Mr. Moore knew him from when he worked for Glidden. ; 6 He worked as a salesman, I believe, at one time for ] 7 Glidden, and that's how he and Mr. Kelly sort of new j 8 each other. i 9 And started the company in '46, and then bought | 10 Mr. Kelly out somewhere in the early '50s, and has 11 since owned the company since --well, since then. 12 Q. Were they originally a California located ] 13 company? > 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. So they generally, expanded west --or ` 16 east over time? j 17 A. Yes, sir. ? 18 Q. Do you know when they first acquired j 19 offices in Texas? j 20 A. We first moved to Texas in 1963 when we 21 bought Hanna Paint Company who was based here in ! 22 Dallas. | 23 Q. And what other facilities has Kelly-Moore 1 24 acquired in Texas since then? j 25 A. I am not aware that we acquired any 1 Page 47 1 1 Page 49 j 1 Q. Okay. W e ll- 2 A. He runs - he's -- he basically is the guy 3 who --for the Pacific Division. 4 Q. Okay. So, he does what you do for the 5 Pacific Division? 6 A. Correct. And for the whole company in 7 theory. He's --he basically is my boss. 8 Q. Okay. Is that the only boss you have? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Okay. So you're second in command? 11 A. I don't know if --I guess you could say 12 that, but there are many people out there, basically 13 think they're my bosses, but no. 14 Q. Is your wife one of them? 15 A. Mine --yes. 16 Q. Okay. Mr. Giffins, could you give us just 17 a basic history of Kelly-Moore? 18 A. Sure. Very happy to. 19 Q. Your understanding of their development. 20 I mean, you told us a little bit about the regional 21 nature in paints, but if you could just go back and 22 enlighten us a little bit about who they are and 23 where they came from. 24 A. The company was founded, I - in '46, by 25 Mr. Moore, when he --he had just come back from 1 facility --you say facilities. Are you talking \ 2 about companies? 1 3 Q. Sure. Either --either any other f 4 companies that you acquired where you retained an j 5 additional presence here other than in Dallas. Or, j 6 just new offices set up by Kelly-Moore here in j 7 Texas. | 8 A. Well, we bought Hanna in '63, and then J 9 built our plant in Hurst, Texas in '70. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. Opened that in '70. 1 12 Q. And what did the plant do? j 13 A. Made paint. | 14 Q. Does it still make paint? f 15 A. Yes, sir. ! 16 Q. And did the facility that you acquired in % 17 '63 --what was their name? I 18 A. Hanna. 19 Q. Hanna? j 20 A. Excuse me, Hanna. I believe it was j 21 H A N N A . | 22 Q. And was Hanna also a -- just a paint ; 23 manufacturer? ) 24 A. They were a paint manufacturer. jj 25 Q. Do you know if they made anything else j 1 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 13 (Pages 46 to 49) 36766920-761 c -11 d6-8c1 c-0004 5a4bdea7 Page 50 Page 52 1 other than paint? 2 A. I could not tell you, sir. Could not tell 3 you. 4 Q. Do you know if they made any textures, 5 joint compounds, anything like that? 6 A. I couldn't tell you. I don't believe so. 7 I wouldn't swear to it. 8 Q. Okay. Prior to the acquisition o f the 9 Hurst facility to make paints, where else was 10 Kelly-Moore actually manufacturing their paints? 11 A. Okay. The Hurst facility, we built. 12 Q. Right. 13 A. We owned. We bought the land and built 14 that. So we didn't -- that's something that -- 15 Q. It was not an acquisition? 16 A. It was not an acquisition. Yes, sir. We 17 have plants in California. We have a plant in 18 Arizona. We have a plant in Seattle, Washington. 19 Those are the operating plants today. 20 Q. For the Southwest Region, where are the 21 headquarters? Hurst? 22 A. Hurst, yes, sir. 23 Q. Is that where you typically report to? 24 A. That's where I sort of sit down, yes. 25 Q. That's where your office is when you're in 1 record at 10:53. 2 (A recess was taken.) 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the 4 record. The time is 11:09. 5 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Mr. Giffins, during the 6 break I went back over the notes. There was a 7 couple things I wanted to pick up with you that I 8 had not completely covered. We went on to something 9 else. You told me about the four gentlemen that you j 10 had talked to as --helping you make notes on the j 11 subject matters you may be discussing today. One is j 12 Mr. Winslow. You told us about him. Mr. Harrison, 13 where does he live? 1 14 A. Bill Harrison? 1 15 Q. Yes, sir. | 16 A. He is retired, and he is living in Oregon. j 17 Q. Do you know what city? j 18 A. I keep --I want --Bend comes to mind but 19 I'm not sure that's true. 1 20 Q. Okay. Mr. Freeman? 21 A. He lives in Oklahoma. 22 Q. And what city? 23 A. I can't answer that. It's somewhere near 24 Broken Arrow. 25 Q. Okay. What was his title? Page 51 Page 53 1 1 your office? 1 A. His title when he was with the company? j 2 A. When I'm in my office, yes. 2 Q. Before he retired. Yes, sir. J 3 Q. Are you on the road a lot? 3 A. Well, when he -- when he left the company, j 4 A. Yes and no. This- - this thing has taken 4 he was a -- in charge o f the factory. He was 5 up a lot o f my time, lately. 5 general - - 1 guess you can call him the general 6 Q. This thing being -- 6 manager o f the factory. He was involved with the 7 A. The Paco asbestos issues with Kelly-Moore. 7 sales part o f it -- 1 8 Q. Okay. Well, let's talk about that. 8 Q. Okay. 9 MR.HAZEN: Hey, Brent. 9 A. -- in Broken Arrow. 10 THE WITNESS: Can we take a break? 10 Q. Okay. And Mr. Scanton? 11 MR. HAZEN: Yeah, I'mjust saying 11 A. Don Scranton? 12 if we are going to move into that, we have been 12 Q. Was it Scranton? 1 13 going about an hour, maybe we can make a short 13 A. Scranton. 1 14 break. 14 Q. Okay. Mr. Scranton? 1 15 MR. COON: Oh, sure. And anytime, 15 A. S K R A N T O N . 1 16 Mr. Giffins, I know you have got some back problems, 16 Q. Where is he at now and what was-his title? 17 any time you need to take a break, stand up, walk it 17 A. He is retired. He lives in Palm Springs, 18 off, let me know, okay? 18 California, and he was a vice president o f sales at 19 THE WITNESS: Actually my back is a 19 one time for the company. 20 little bit better than my ability to stay out of to 20 Q. Okay. We talked a lot about the different 21 the bathroom. I drink a lot of water. 21 types o f facilities you had and over the break I 22 MR. COON: Okay. Either way. We're 22 picked up one o f your brochures. This is 23 happy to break for either one. Okay? 23 Kelly-Moore Exhibit 1129, and it appears to be one 24 THE WITNESS: Thanks. 24 o f --I didn't see the date on it. But it appears 1 25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the 25 to be one from the '60s. If you look at some o f the 1 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713)861-0203 14 (Pages 50 to 53) 36766920-761c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 54 l photos, the cars seem to be from that era. And I -- 2 there is a number of things in here I want to 3 briefly talk with you about, kind of help us get a 4 better idea of some -- some of the issues. Inside 5 there I think there is a picture of Mr. Moore and 6 ! Mr. Kelly, the founders? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. And I can't tell much off of that. But, 9 you get to here, talks about the main office being 10 in San Carlos, California, is that still the main 11 office headquarters? 12 A. That is correct. 13 Q. At this time, it listed - again, I don't 14 know what year, but the factories, paint and 15 drywalls was Dallas, Houston, Ontario and San 16 Carlos. Are all those offices still open? 17 A. Let me see this a minute, if I may. 18 Q. Yes, sir. 19 A. Dallas is not --is no longer open. 20 Q. Has that been replaced with the Hurst 21 facility? 22 A. That has been, correct. 23 Q. And that's because that opened in '70, so 24 you did not need the Dallas office anymore? 25 A. No, that was closed down when we opened ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- i Page 56 ' 1 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. It appears to be 2 somewhat of a summary that was done by Mr. Merrill 3 at some point in the past, that kind of set out some ' 4 of the shops and the years they were open. % 5 A. It was done in --evidently based on the 6 signature here, it looks like 12 o f '82 -- 7 Q. Okay. * 8 A. --is when he prepared this. I 9 Q. That's based on what looks to be his i 10 signature below it with a date? ! 11 A. That's correct. ] 12 Q. Okay. And he indicated in here, I think 13 on Page 1, the Houston facility was open around s 14 '67. It was a drywall manufacturing operation, and 15 closed around 74? | 16 A. Four. | 17 Q. Does that sound about right? 18 A. Yeah. I would trust this better than my 5 19 recollection. I 20 Q. Okay. j 21 A. I was close on the opening. f 22 Q. Sure. i 23 A. But I was a little short on the closing. j 24 Q. Okay. And then if we go back to this j 25 chart, the next area, we have the subsidiary j t 1 Page 55 Page 57 ? 1 the --the Hurst building. 2 Q. Sure. 3 A. Houston, as far as a factory, and - and 4 drywall, that's closed down. Ontario is closed. 5 Q. Okay. With Houston, do you know the years 6 that they were open and closed? 7 A. I want to say '66 to maybe 72, because 8 they were --I think there was still some work done 9 in Houston after Hurst was built. 1think it would 10 be around '66, '65, maybe, to 71, 72. 11 Q. Okay. Let me show you something to read 12 contemporaneously with it. This is Kelly-Moore 13 1003. It looks like notes from Mr. Merrill. I am 14 presuming that was probably Douglas Merrill. Have 15 you seen that before? 16 MR. HAZEN: And, Brent, is that a 17 Bates stamp you're referring to down in the bottom 18 comer or -- 19 A. It's a K M - 20 MR. HAZEN: Yeah, can you just tell 21 me that number? KM 1003? 22 A. Yes. 23 MR. COON: Yes, sir. 24 MR. HAZEN; Okay. 25 A. I have seen this at one time, yes. 1 manufacturing facilities, what are those? j 2 A. Fresno - | 3 Q. Fresno, California? j 4 A. Yes. | 5 Q. Is that facility still open? j 6 A. No. I'm not sure what that would have i 7 been, sir, in Fresno. j 8 Q. Okay. What are we talking about when we i 9 say the subsidiary manufacturing facilities, versus f 10 --versus the ones you described earlier as the I 11 factories? t 12 A. Okay. At the time, I mentioned they -- f 13 they were in the ceramic business. | 14 Q. Yes, sir. | 15 A. They were also in the mineral business. ( 16 And -- | 17 Q. Being the mining? | 18 A. Mining. ? 19 Q. Right. I think the brochure talks about | 20 that. | 21 A. Okay. And they also at the time made the i 22 metal for the --when you do drywall, the metal that ? 23 goes around the comers, and that type of thing. { 24 Q. Okay. j 25 A. And I believe that's what the Newark I 5 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 15 (Pages 54 to 57) 1 r'-'M n-T\r\C\A R a A KH Page 58 1 reference is. I am not sure about Oxnard, nor the 1 2 -- the Van Nuys. I really can't tell you what they 2 Q. Okay. That's the main headquarters? A. That's the main headquarters. j{1i Page 60 3 would have been at that time. 3 Q. And then in Texas where is the main j 4 Q. Okay. And those were other facilities in 5 California apparently at one time? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Okay. Then we have the mining operations 8 listed under that. That would be the ones you just 9 described earlier? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. It lists those, apparently four or five 12 mining operation locations in California and Nevada? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. Okay. And do you know if any o f those are 15 in operation at this time? 16 A. I believe they are not. 4 facility? Is it here in Hurst? 5 A. It would be Hurst, yes. |f 6 Q, Do they have any, what you would describe, j | 7 corporate activities at the Hurst facility? I 1 8 mean, you're the manager, president o f the Southwest s 9 Division and your offices are there, correct? | 10 A. That is correct. 11 Q. Okay. To some degree it's a corporate 12 office? | j 13 A. If you want to define it that way, yes, I 1 14 guess - - 1guess you can look at it that way. ! 15 Q. It is just not the main headquarters for 16 the company? j 17 Q. Okay. And then a reduction -- 18 A. Well, it may --I --we don't -- we're not 19 involved with them. 17 A. That is correct. 18 Q. Okay. With respect to Texas, is the Hurst jj 19 facility the main facility? 1 20 Q. Right. 21 A. You know, they may be in operation by 20 A. That would be correct. 21 Q. Both from a manufacturing standpoint, as 1[ 22 somebody else, but we don't have anything to do with 22 well as where the decision makers for the company j I 23 them. 23 are? I 24 Q. You would have sold them out? 24 A. We're decentralized to the point that we 25 A. Yes, sir. 25 -- we have programs and things that are applicable 1 I Page 59 Page 61 1 1 Q. Okay. The reduction mill. What is that? j 2 A. I have no idea. I -- my interpretation 1 to Texas, and the Southwest Division, which might be 2 different than the --the other division. 3 would be that that's where they process some of the 3 Q. Okay. 4 minerals, by reduction, but again, this was before 4 A. If that's what you're talking about. 5 my time. 5 Q. Yes, sir. With respect to the Southwest 6 Q. Okay. Maybe where they take the raw ore 6 Division, is --I was presuming that you being the 7 and reduce it to something in their processing? 7 president of the Southwest Division, and officing in 8 A. That would be my assumption, yes. 8 Hurst, that Hurst was kind o f the hub for the 9 Q. Okay. And then we have sales branches 9 Southwest Division? 10 listed next. 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. First California and Nevada, and I guess 10 A. That's correct. 8 1 11 Q. Okay. The states that you also oversee, 1 12 do they each all --do each of those states also 13 it just lists a lot o f different cities where they 13 have a corporate office? j 14 have sales offices? 15 A. That would be basically stores, outlets, 14 A. They have what we call a district office. 15 Q. Okay. J 16 yes. 16 A. And -- 17 Q. Okay. And then you have below that --let 17 Q. Does each state have one district office? 18 me first ask you where we're talking about the sales 18 A. No. Huh-uh. Not each state. We have 19 branches here, we didn't go into much specifics 19 district offices that are set geographically like -- \ 2 0 earlier, but Kelly-Moore, as I understand, you have 2 0 as an example, we have a district office in 21 corporate headquarters in several different states, 21 Colorado, Fort Collins, Colorado. That district 22 where your offices are like Hurst, Texas, correct? 22 office, those people in there manage the Colorado 23 A. Well, your corporate headquarters would 23 stores as well as the Oklahoma. j 24 only be -- there is only one corporate office and .24 Q. Okay. 1 25 that is San Carlos, California. 25 A. Majority o f the Oklahoma stores. I 1 16 (Pages 58 to 61) NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 62 , Page 64 \ 1 Q. So you may not have a district office in 2 every state if -- 3 A. We do not. 4 Q. --if it's close enough to where 5 geographically you could handle two states, you do 6 so? 7 A. Right. 8 Q. Are there states where you have more than 9 one district office? 10 A. In Texas, in Hurst, in the Hurst building, 11 we have two district offices that both serve the 12 Metroplex here. We have the district office that 13 serves the Dallas area, and we have a district 14 office that serves the Fort Worth area. 15 Q. Okay. Any other district offices in 16 Texas? 17 A. We have one in Abilene. We have one in 18 Houston. That's it. 19 Q. Okay. And does each district office 20 oversee the local retail outlets? 21 A. They oversee the local stores, that's 22 correct. 23 Q. Okay. And generally speaking, how many 24 local stores does each district have 25 responsibilities for? I am sure it varies some. 1 explained when we go through the rest of this chart. { 2 Q. (By Mr. Coon) We next have the bottom, it \ 3 talks about sales branches. Are the sales branches j 4 different than the district divisions? ! 5 A. Yes. Now, we call them stores today. j 6 Okay? I -- and, again, this --and 1 was trying to l 7 see the date that this was printed. j 8 Q. Sure. ! 9 A. Usually on a piece of literature like ! 10 this, the date is usually on the last page in the 11 back, and I don't see that it's aligned. I don't see 12 it. | 13 But, here, back -- in those days, they called 14 - I believe they called the stores sales branches, 15 and if you notice, they have got this broken down in 16 Texas division, and then listing the sales branches 17 which are really the stores. | 18 Q. Okay. S 19 A. And the same thing under California and 1 20 Nevada. They're really the stores that are within 1 21 that basic area. i 22 Q. Fair enough. And if we looked at the 23 front of this, some of the literature, it appears j 24 when you give the history, they are talking about up i 25 through the early '60s, so I am --or I think it's j Page 63 1t1 Page 65 l 1 A. Yeah, basically --it's around 13 to 15 1 1 early 70s, so I am presuming that was the time j 2 per district. 2 frame involved here. But, again, I didn't see any \ 3 Q. So, the basic hierarchy, as I understand, 3 dates. So, if there is differences between the way | 4 you have got the main headquarters in California, 4 the chart or this brochure lays out the corporation | 5 and then your second to that headquarters here in 5 as it existed then from now, you can clarify those f 6 Hurst, where your offices are? 6 with us. 7 A. (Indicating.) 7 A. Sure. Be very happy to. f 8 Q. And then you have five or so other 8 Q. In going through this there was some basic j 9 division district offices? 9 structural information, showed - this again is j 10 A. District. They would be called district. 10 kind of a corporate hierarchy, if we look at the 11 Q. Okay. And then below those, you have 11 charts, shows the president and then management 12 multiple little retail shops that answer to each of 12 committees. And I want to ask you here, it shows j 13 those districts? 13 the division under the president of an industrial I 14 A. That's correct. 14 minerals division. Is this where you were talking 15 Q. Okay. Are there any other parts of that 15 about they made the mining? | 16 hierarchy that we missed? Are there lateral 16 A. The mining, yes, sir. i 17 hierarchies, or anything that we missed? 17 Q. And then over here we have the Paco | 18 A. As it relates from Hurst on down to the 18 textures? * 19 stores, no, that would be basically the flow. 19 A. That would be Paco. 20 Q. Okay. 20 Q. Paco? i 21 MR. HAZEN: And, Brent, just a point 21 A. They call it Paco. Goes by Paco, yes. j 22 o f verification. You're talking today, right, with 22 Q. Okay. And then underneath it we have 23 respect to the hierarchy? 23 Cal-Pacific Trucklines, Management Data Services, j 24 MR. COON: Sure. Sure. And I think 24 and Drywall Tape Company? j 25 there are some differences here that will be 25 A. Correct. j ...... ........_ _ _ _ _ .........i 17 (Pages 62 to 65) NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 66 Page 68 | 1 Q. Were those all entities that operated 2 under the --the Paco umbrella, or - 3 A. No. They --they would have been -- Paco 4 would have been a subsidiary, Paco manufactured 5 drywall equipment. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. Or not equipment, but the --the patching 8 compounds. Cal-Pacific was another subsidiary. All 9 these are individual subsidiaries. As you asked me 10 earlier, who were these people up here under this 11 breakdown, where it was talking about subsidiaries. 12 Okay? 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. Cal-Pacific, we owned the truck -- 15 Kelly-Moore owned a truckline at one time. 16 Q. Okay. When and where did they own a truck 17 line? We talking about a -- like Allied Trucklines, 18 that kind o f a truckline? 19 A. We owned our own trucks for transporting 20 of material to our stores from the factories. 21 Q. Okay. So instead o f hiring an outside 22 company to transport your product from the 23 manufacturing facility to your retail stores, 24 you-all had your own trucking company to do so? 25 A. That is correct. 1 - we --when we went into the Paco business, they 1 2 also bought a --a tape company as well as a metal ! 3 company, and the tape company, I believe, is the one j 4 that --originally where you buy the --the tape 1 5 that goes on the wall. 1 6 Q. Okay. Is this the rolls o f the -- 1 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. --sheet tape -- 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. --that you use to float between the 11 sheetrock and fill in the cracks? | 12 A. Yes, sir. j 13 Q. Okay. Do you know where that was located j 14 at? 1 15 A. I believe it was in the East Bay. I want 16 to say Hayward, but I am not sure that's correct. I 17 know the --the metal company was located in 18 Hayward, so I may be confusing it. So -- 1 19 Q. Okay. j 20 A. I really can't say. 1 21 Q. If we compare that list with what Mr. | 22 Merrill had signed on this document, which is 1003, 1 23 he talks about the Paco Textures Corporation was 1 24 founded in '58, and was located in Richmond, 1 25 California. Does that sound consistent with your j 1 Page 67 Page 69 j 1 Q. Did they do any distribution for any 2 companies other than for Kelly-Moore? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. To the best o f my knowledge, it was 6 strictly in-house. 7 Q. Okay. Made sense to them to just 8 internalize that part of it, probably because o f a 9 bottom line expense cost? 10 A. I don't know for what reason they had, but 11 that would sound logical. 12 Q. Okay. You also had the Management Data 13 Services? 14 A. Yeah. From --and, again, I am very vague 15 on this one. This was a -- a subsidiary at one time 16 that made accounting-type equipment. I guess they 17 were getting -- it goes back in the days when they 18 were getting automated as far as accounting-type 19 things, and this was an accounting service. 20 Q. Okay. Do you know what happened t o -- 21 well, first let's go to the last one there, the 22 Drywall Tape Company. 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. Do you know anything about that company? 25 A. I believe that was the company that made 1 memory? 1 2 A. That is correct. I 3 Q. And that it manufactured drywall, joint I 4 compounds and wall textures, and sold to I 5 distributors, principally in Northern California, of I 6 which Kelly-Moore was the largest distributor, does 1 7 that sound correct? 1 8 A. That is correct. 1 .9 Q. Okay. Now I want to ask you the next I 10 thing there, which is distributorships. When | 11 Kelly-Moore has their product lines, did they also 1 12 have outside distributors that would carry their 1 13 product lines under some other name to other 1 14 facilities? 1 15 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 1 16 A. Are you talking about paint? 1 17 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Yeah. I guess that's a 18 good question. Let's first talk about paints. D id . j 19 they have agreements to have anyone else distribute j 20 their products to facilities other than Kelly-Moore j 21 facilities? 1 22 A. Oh, okay. All right. 1 23 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 1 24 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Does that make sense? 1 25 A. Yes, sir. 1 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 18 (Pages 66 to 69) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8ci c-00045a4bdea7 Page 70 Page 72 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. It does. 3 Q. And the answer? 4 A. The philosophy of the company from day 5 one, and we even have that philosophy today, is that 6 j the company markets to its own stores. We have not 7 been in the distributor business or the dealer 8 business or whatever, so the philosophy has always 9 been sell through your own stores. 10 I f! understand your question, you wanted to - 11 your one question was did we ever repackage any of 12 our products for resale outside of the organization. 13 Q. Yes, sir. 14 A. I am not aware that we ever did that with 15 paint. I am aware that there was a rebranding 16 agreement between Kelly-Moore Paint Company and 17 Georgia Pacific that goes back to '68, and I think 18 that ended in '71. But other than that, I am not 19 aware of anything else where we would have rebranded 20 or relabeled products for somebody else. 21 Q, Okay. Do you know what products would 22 have been involved in that rebranding agreement with 23 Georgia Pacific? 24 A. There were about four or five products. I 25 --I'd have to go back to the file. I don't recall 1 A. As far as an agreement between -- 2 Q. Kelly-Moore and Georgia Pacific. 3 A. I have seen a copy of that, yes. 4 Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not the 5 reverse was true, that other persons like Georgia 6 Pacific made products, rebranded them under the 7 Kelly-Moore name? 8 A. To the best of my knowledge, no, because 9 Mr. Moore has always been very - give you a little 10 bit of background here. He's always been very, 11 very, very protective of the Kelly-Moore name and 12 the integrity of the company, and he didn't -- 13 anything that our name went on, he wanted to make 14 sure it was made a right way, a certain way, and the 15 quality. So I have never seen anything - until 16 recently they started to rebrand some sundry items. 17 But that there was never anything in the 18 organization where there was any rebranding of paint 19 or anything like that. 20 Q. Okay. And what do you mean by the 21 rebranding of some sundry items? 22 A. Roller covers is an example. Roller 23 covers, there might be some out in the stores now 24 that have Kelly-Moore name on the wrapper, but it's 25 a cover that we buy from somebody else. Page 71 Page 73 1 exactly but it was --it was a -- a fairly limited 2 line. 3 Q. Were they the joint compounds or textures? 4 A. They were joint compounds and textures, 5 yes, sir. 6 Q. And were those some of the 7 asbestos-containing products that the Paco Textures 8 had made at one time? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Do you know which ones under the Paco 11 lines were the same ones that were rebranded for 12 Georgia Pacific? 13 A. I actually don't recall off the top of my 14 head. I would have to go back to my notes and take 15 a look at that, but I ~ my assumption would be it 16 would have been the --the better moving items, but 17 I can't tell you exactly which ones they are off the 18 top of my head. 19 Q. Okay. And just off the top of your head, 20 what were the better moving products? 21 A. Oh, the textures, and the Ready Mix Joint 22 Compound. 23 Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not there 24 Still exist any copies o f the rebranding agreements 25 that were in place in that '68 to 71 time frame? 1 Q. Okay. And what's a roller cover? Talking 2 about paint rollers? 3 A. Rollers -- yeah, I'm sorry, paint roller 4 cover you put on a handle and paint the walls. 5 Q. The replacement rollers for the trays? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Okay. Okay. The truckline company, is 8 that something that still is in the organization, 9 Cal-Pacific Trucklines? 10 A. That was dissolved a few years ago in 11 California, but we still own our truckline here in 12 --in Hurst. 13 Q. Okay. The truckline in Hurst, is that 14 also a Cal-Pacific or is that another brand? 15 A. It's not called that, sir, but I --I 16 can't tell you under what classification it goes by. 17 Q. Is that wholly owned by Kelly-Moore? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Does it do any distribution of product 20 lines for any --anyone other than Kelly-Moore? 21 A. No, sir. 22 Q. Okay. The Drywall Tape Company, is that 23 still in existence? 24 A. No. Not as Kelly-Moore. 25 Q. Do you know if they closed that facility NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 19 (Pages 70 to 73) 36766920-761c-11d6-8c1c-00045a4bdea7 Page 74 Page 76 j 1 or sold it? 2 A. I can't answer that. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. I shouldn't say I can't answer. I don't 5 know. 6 Q. Don't know? Okay. If we go on through 7 the brochure, it starts talking about setting up 8 what they call a -- I am trying to remember the 9 name. Retail -- it looked like little mini Home 10 Depots? 11 A. Home improvement. 12 Q. Home improvement centers. 13 A. Right. 14 Q. When did Kelly-Moore get in the home 15 improvement centers and do they still have any? 16 A. We're no longer if that business. It goes 17 back, I believe, to the early sixties. We acquired 18 a couple large facilities, and made home improvement 19 centers out of them, where they sold paint, and 20 gardening, and that type of thing. 21 Q. So they would have sold not only 22 Kelly-Moore products there, but products from other 23 vendors? 24 A. The paint that was sold through those 25 outlets was Kelly-Moore paint. 1 A. Yeah. We bought a clutch company 1 2 primarily because ~ as I understand it, the | 3 clutches that were --this company manufactured were | 4 clutches that we were able to use on some equipment, j 5 spray equipment, that we were also making. j 6 Q. Was that the Sprayline product line? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Okay. We will talk about that in a j 9 minute. I 10 A. And so they bought this clutch company. 1 11 Now, --and I just learned something today. It was j 12 originally in Van Nuys, so that explains the Van 13 Nuys subsidiary. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. The clutch company was moved to Ontario. | 16 Q. Canada? 17 A. No. Ontario, California. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. S o - 20 Q. Was that still in operation -- 21 A. They started it then. 22 Q. I'm sorry. Is that still in operation? 23 A. No. 24 Q. What happened to it? 25 A. We sold it. Page 75 Page 77 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. The other products would have been 3 numerous suppliers from other companies, yes. 4 Q. Okay. And if this picture -- it's kind of 5 grainy, but it looks like they're selling lamps, and 6 lights, and flowers and all kind o f stuff. 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. Okay. So this would be like just a 9 smaller version of, I guess, a Home Depot or Lowe's 10 or something today? 11 A. Actually, I'd like to classify this as the 12 beginning of Home Depot, because Mr. Moore had a -- 13 quite a vision with this thing, and -- this was the 14 early days of the home improvement centers. 15 Q. And did he sell out those home improvement 16 lines or did theyjust close o f their own accord? 17 A. We just closed them down. 18 Q. Was that an idea before its time? 19 A. Actually it was --worked very well, until 20 the Home Depots and all those started to move into 21 the market, then they made it real tough. 22 Q. Okay. This next talks about clutches and 23 brakes. Do you know anything about Kelly-Moore 24 being involved in manufacturing, making or 25 distributing brake or clutch lines? 1 Q. Okay. Do you know what types o f those -- 2 of clutches and brakes they made there? What they 3 were used for? 4 A. Primarily they were small clutches. I 5 can't really tell you exactly, but they went on --I 6 think some o f them went on golf carts, and some went 7 on equipment, that type of thing. 8 Q. Okay. Did they manufacture the components 9 there at their facility? Was this the manufacturing 10 facility? 11 A. I think it was more of an assembly where 12 you bought components from different people, you 13 know, and then sort of like a car assembly line. I 14 Q. Okay. 1 15 A. Put them all together. 1 16 Q. A lot o f cars and trucks during this time 1 17 frame had asbestos clutches and brakes. Do you know | 18 whether or not this facility assembled 1 19 asbestos-containing clutch pads or brake pads or | 20 anything o f that nature? 1 21 A. I can't answer that. I really can't, sir. 1 22 Q. Do you know who would have been in charge I 23 o f running that facility during the time it was 1 24 open? 1 25 A. I really don't. No. I can't tell -- help 1 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.' (713)861-0203 20 (Pages 74 to 77) 36766920-761c-11d6-8c1c-00045a4bdea'i Page 78 : Page 80 1 you. 2 Q. Okay. Next we have the Chem-Guard 3 Products. Says it was founded in 1958. Makes wood 4 preservatives, canning and food packing industry. 5 Is that facility still open? 6\ A. No. Q. What happened to it? 8 A. Sold, probably, or closed down. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. Have to understand early on in the 11 company's existence, we were involved with many 12 different types of businesses. It was around 1982 13 when it was decided that we'd concentrate on paint, 14 and so a lot of these things then started to go by 15 the wayside. And since then we have concentrated 16 solely on making paint. I can't tell you what 17 happened to that particular. 18 Q. Okay. Then we have Cal-Pacific 19 Trucklines. That's the one I believe you have just 20 described for us? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And it shows a fleet of vehicles there, 23 one of the pages of the brochure, and talks 24 generally about the trucking fleet and shows some of 25 the drums of cargo and stuff like that. 1 the basic industrial minerals, and that was one of 2 the providers of the ingredients to make the 3 ceramics you told us about earlier? 4 A. Yes. Yes. 5 Q. It says they also used oil well drilling 6 muds. Do you know anything about that line of the 7 Basic Industrial Minerals products? 8 A. I sure don't, sir. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. Sure don't. 11 Q. A lot of drilling muds at times in the 12 past contained asbestos. Do you know whether or not 13 the drilling muds that Basic Industrial Minerals 14 prepared or manufactured contained asbestos? 15 A. Do not. 16 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 17 A. Do not. 18 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. Next we have KM 19 Drywall Finishing Equipment. Was that a separate 20 product line? Was it another company? 21 A. This is where that equipment I talked to 22 you about with the clutches -- 23 Q. Yes, sir. 24 A. -- went into the equipment. 25 Q. Uh-huh. Page 79 Page 81 1 Okay. Next, what do we have here? Is this the 2 mining facility? 3 A. Yes. That's what it looks like. 4 Q. That's basic industrial minerals? 5 A. I can read that. I can't read the rest o f 6 it. 7 Q. We're having to read it sideways off the 8 brochure. 9 A. Let me move over. 10 Q. You're fine. It talks about --I think we 11 need to keep you square with the camera. 12 MR. HAZEN: Yeah, come back over. 13 You're going to get out of camera focus. 14 Q. (By Mr. Coon) - diversifying into pottery 15 and ceramics industry with air floated clays as well 16 as oil well drilling muds. Read that correct? 17 A. Now I understand --now I understand where 18 the ceramic people got some o f their minerals for 19 the ceramic division. 20 Q. They internalized everything at 21 Kelly-Moore, didn't they? 22 A. Yeah. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A . M r. M oore w as pretty sharp. 25 Q. So in making the ceramics, you acquired 1 A. This is part of it. This was equipment 2 that they --this particular case, manufactured 3 machines for the mixing of dry powder products with 4 water spraying them on. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. Like to do with drywall. 7 Q. Now, what we have here under the 8 Kelly-Moore drywall finishing equipment, was that a 9 separate company, or is that just one of the product 10 lines that Kelly-Moore made under their same 11 corporate umbrella? 12 A. This was one of the subsidiaries. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. This would have been the subsidiary, and I 15 noticed here it says Fresno, California, so that 16 would have been going back here to what you were 17 talking about -- 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. --when you asked me about the 20 subsidiaries. 21 Q. Sure. Was that what was called the 22 Sprayline Company? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. And, so, you had this separate 25 company out there that would actually apply the NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 21 (Pages 78 to 81) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 82 Page 84 j 1 materials as well as sell the equipment, orjust -- 1 subsidiary here -- j 2 A. No. We made -- 2 Q. Okay. j 3 Q. Did you sell the equipment? 3 A. --where it says the tape company. > 4 A. We made the equipment. We didn't apply 4 Q. Sure. f 5 it. 5 A. This is the rolls o f tape - j 6 Q. You-all were not applicators, you-all just 6 Q. Okay. f 7 sold the equipment to apply? 7 A. --in the process. 8 A. That's correct, to the best o f my 8 Q. This is a grainy picture, but this j 9 knowledge. 9 actually shows us, and this is stamped KM BB 5696. j 10 Q. This would have been equipment that you 10 I don't see the actual page on here. j 11 would have used to apply the textures? You could 11 A. Yeah. j 12 blow the textures on, and trowel it out, the 12 Q. But it shows, I guess, a lot of rolls of \ 13 spackles and stuff like that for the ceilings and 13 flat tape. j 14 the walls? 14 A. Yeah, if it hadn't been for this, I would j 15 A. Correct. 15 have thought it would have been rolls o f cheese. 16 Q. Would this have been something that would / 16 Q. Yeah. 17 have been sold to contractors, or individual folks 17 A. It says, "Electronic process spark punches 1 18 who wanted to try to do it - do repairjobs, or 18 tiny holes in the tape." J 19 renovation jobs on their homes or what? 19 Q. Okay. | 20 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 20 A. So that would be the tape process. j 21 A. I would not think that this type of 21 Q. These were the tapes that were used to 22 equipment would go to the normal consumer. This 22 float the sheetrock out? j 23 type of equipment would have to be handled by a 23 A. Yes, sir. I 24 professional, who you -- you know, works with -- 24 Q. Did Kelly-Moore have for the heavy I 25 that's --that's his or her livelihood on a daily 25 industrial users or large commercial users a --a j Page 83 Page 85 1 1 basis. I would -- 2 Q. (By Mr. Coon) So it would have been 3 drywall contractors principally? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. I assume large and small 6 contractors? 7 A. I would say so, yes. 8 Q. Do you know whether or not that type of 9 equipment was ever available for lease at any of 10 your retail shops, that someone went in and bought 11 your texture to --to do their house, they could 12 rent the equipment from you there to apply it 13 themselves? 14 A. I can't say that that ever --that did or 15 did not happen. I do not recall. Knowing the 16 company's philosophy about renting equipment, up 17 until recently, I would -- my guess would be no. My 18 guess would be no. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. But I can't swear to it, sir. 21 Q. Okay. Next we have Kelly-Moore and The 22 Drywall Industry, and wanted to talk about there -- 23 it shows some stacks of something. The photo is not 24 particularly good? 25 A. Oh, this is the tape. We go back to the 1 wholesale distribution system that bypassed the 2 retail shops? 3 A. Let me make sure I understand your 4 question. Are you asking did we distribute product 5 other than through our own stores? 1 6 Q. Yes, sir. Directly to end users. j 7 A. No. 8 Q. Okay. Say, I am a -- hypothetically, I am 1 9 a drywall contractor in Houston, Texas. 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. I do a lot of drywall business and I want 12 to get a better deal. Could I call Kelly-Moore and 13 say, I want to do big volumes of business with you 14 guys, but I want you-all to cut me a deal and ship 15 it straight to me? Do you-all ever do anything like 1 16 that? 1 17 A. No. I 18 Q. Could you have the commercial users that 1 19 would buy in volume go to a retail store and get 20 more, what you would call, a wholesale or discount 21 price, volume pricing? 22 A. Everything went through the stores. 23 Q. But could you get volume pricing if you 24 were a large customer? 25 A. Oh, yes. | NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 22 (Pages 82 to 85) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 86 Page 88 1 Q. Okay. So, each of the retail shops you 2 have told us about could have different pricing 3 schedules dependent upon the individual customer 4 issues? 5 A. That is correct. Q. Were those all fixed prices that were set 5 in criteria by upper management, or were the 8 individual retail stores allowed to negotiate the 9 various rates based on the volume of the demand? 10 A. I can only tell you what I know since I 11 have been the company. The price schedules are 12 preprinted, and they're set, and you have to work 13 off of those schedules. 14 Q. So you can have a - your regular retail 15 if somebody wants to come in and just buy one gallon 16 of paint or one bucket of this or that, you have got 17 the retail price; and if a guy wants to come in and 18 buy a thousand gallons of paint because he's a 19 commercial painter, or a commercial drywaller, he 20 can get a fixed -- 21 A. He would get a different schedule. 22 Q. Get a different scheduled price? 23 A. Right. That's correct. 24 Q. Okay. Is that pretty much how 25 Sherwin-Williams operates as well? 1 departments, something like that? 2 A. We have a quality control department. 3 Q. Where was quality control at? 4 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 5 A. 1 - 6 Q. (By Mr. Coon) They have more -- 7 A. I need to understand what you mean by 8 quality control. We may be talking about two 9 different things. 10 Q. We may be. You tell me what kind of 11 quality control place you-all had. 12 A. Okay. Every plant has a quality control 13 lab, so that when they make a batch of paint, and I 14 am going to have to use paint because that's 15 basically what we look at today. 16 Q. All right. 17 A. Every batch, some of that is taken out of 18 the batch, taken back to the lab and evaluated to 19 make sure it was made according to specification. 20 It's brushed out. It goes into a various ovens, 21 that type of thing. 22 Once that's done, once the quality control lab 23 releases the product, then that batch can be filled. 24 It's put in cans, and then put in the warehouse. 25 Q. Okay. With respect to a facility like the Page 87 Page 89 1 A. They used to. I can't tell you how they 2 operate today, sir. 3 Q. Okay. This photo talks about Kelly-Moore 4 paint company and it said Trilite Corporation. Do 5 you know what the Trilite Corporation was? 6 A. Yeah, that's in Houston. It was in 7 Houston. They made aggregate for texture paints. 8 It was perlite, vermiculite that type of thing. 9 Q. Okay. Vermiculite, where did the 10 vermiculite come from? 11 A. Africa. 12 Q. Do you know whether or not the vermiculite 13 had asbestos in it? 14 A. I can't answer that. I would --I know 15 that vermiculite that they were buying at the time 16 came from Africa, but I can't tell you what the 17 composition of it was. 18 Q. Okay. Did --did Kelly-Moore have anybody 19 that was in a --a lab, I guess, in a lab position, 20 where they would actually analyze the products that 21 they were buying, the raw ingredients to meet 22 specifications, to determine whether or not there 23 were contaminants, things like that? 24 MR. HAZEN; Objection, form. 25 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Quality control 1 Trilite Corporation here, would there have been a 2 quality control at that facility for the raw 3 ingredients that were coming in, vermiculite and 4 aggregate? 5 A. They would had to have some kind of a 6 quality control before they resold it to somebody, 7 to make sure that it met certain specifications. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. How it works when the stuff comes in? 10 Q. Yes, sir. 11 A. We rely on the manufacturer of the 12 material to supply to us all the data relevant to 13 that raw material, so that's the information we use 14 to basically determine what kind of product it is. 15 Q. Okay. Do you know what years vermiculite 16 was ordered for this particular facility? 17 A. I was afraid you were going to ask me 18 that. I have to go back to my notes. I am going to 19 have to - I really don't recall. It would had to 20 have been in the sixties, but I really can't give 21 you an exact year, sir. 22 Q. Was this Houston facility where they 23 actually manufactured that product? 24 A. No, they brought it in and then did a 25 processing of the product somehow to get it in the NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 23 (Pages 86 to 89) 36766920-761C-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 90 f Page 92 j 1 form that they could repackage it and then resell 1 acquiring that same vermiculite after it had been l 2 it. 2 processed at this Trilite Corporation in Houston? j 3 Q. Okay. I am not quite getting the picture. 3 A. I can't answer that. I don't know who | 4 We got the Houston facility. It's called the 4 else bought it from us. ) 5 Kelly-Moore Paint Company, Trilite Corporation, and 5 Q. How would we go about finding out who the j 6 is Trilite a subsidiary of Kelly-Moore, or is that 6 other customers of that facility would have been? 7 just a combined name they have just on that 7 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 8 manufacturing facility or what? 8 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Are there --do you know if 9 A. Well, Trilite was a company that they 9 there were records that are kept? Let me back up. 10 purchased down there. Why they put Kelly-Moore 10 Is the store still there? 11 paint company name on it is -- is beyond me. It was 11 A. No. It wasn't never a store. I don't know 1 12 Trilite. That's all they handled was the 12 why --as I say, I don't know why the name 1 13 vermiculite and the perlite that went into texture 13 Kelly-Moore Paint Company is on it, because, to the 1 14 coatings. 14 best of my knowledge, it was never a store. 1 15 Q. Okay. And I - - maybe I don't have a good 15 Q. So they did not sell out o f that facility, j 16 understanding of what that company actually did. Did 16 it was distributed elsewhere? 1 17 they actually sell a paint that had vermiculite in 17 A .. Did not sell paint out o f that facility. j 18 it at that facility? 18 Did sell, resell the vermiculite and the perlite out | 19 A. No. 19 of that facility. j 20 Q. Is that what they made? 20 Q. Could you have walked into that facility 1 21 A. No. They sold the vermiculite and the 21 in Houston and bought a bag of vermiculite that had | 22 perlite to the company itself for use in drywall 2 2 been processed at that plant? I 23 products, as well as other companies were buying it 23 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 1 24 to put into their products. 24 A. Could I as a consumer? 1 25 Q. Okay. So this was a facility that not 25 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Yes, sir. 1 Page 91 Page 93 j 1 only bought the raw ingredients, say the vermiculite 1 A. I - - 1 doubt it. | 2 from where? Africa? 2 Q. Okay. You believe they sold mostly to j 3 A. Vermiculite came from Africa. 3 other manufacturers? I 4 Q. Okay. So they would buy the vermiculite 4 A. Yes, sir. j 5 from Africa. It would come into this Trilite 5 Q. So we don't -- you don't -- you did not 1 6 Corporation facility in Houston, and once there it 6 anticipate or did not -- you're not aware of I 7 would go somewhere else within Kelly-Moore for use 7 customer -- end user customers going in and buying 8 in their products? 8 the --the product there at the factory? 9 A. Yeah. It would be washed or whatever and 9 A. Anything is possible, but I mean that - 10 then put in a content that would go into the 10 that stuff is processed in bulk, you know -- 11 Kelly-Moore products, or it could be sold to a - 11 Q. Okay. 12 another person who was using -- 12 A. -- in big bags, and I mean for the average 13 Q. Okay. 13 person that would walk in off the street, you know. 14 A. -- making similar products. 14 Q. Wouldn't typically have a need for it? 15 Q. First of all, what product lines do you 15 A. Huh-uh. 16 believe Kelly-Moore was making during this time 16 Q. Unless they were in the business o f taking 17 frame where you would have had vermiculite as one of 17 it and using it in larger fashion, like Kelly-Moore? 18 the ingredients? 18 A. My guesses are it was strictly in bulk to 19 A. It would have had to have been the texture 19 -- to other end users. 2 0 products. 20 Q. When this vermiculite was processed at | 21 Q. Okay. The Paco lines? 21 this particular facility, do you know how it was 1 22 A. Yes, sir. 2 2 that it got to the Paco facilities where it was 1 23 Q. Okay. And what other companies outside o f 23 actually made, blended into the textures? I mean 1 24 the Kelly-Moore Corporation, or structure, or 24 was it bagged up there and then shipped on one of 1 25 family, however you want to call it, would have been 25 the Cal-Pacific Trucklines, or -- 1 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 24 (Pages 90 to 93) 36766920-761c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 94 Page 96 1 A. Well, Cal-Pacific was a truckline in 2 California only. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. Okay. This was in Texas. 5 Q. You're talking about a Houston truckline? 6 A. Yeah, we have a truckline out of Hurst. 7 At that time -- it would be speculation. It could 8 have come -- 9 Q. All right. 10 A. --either with a truck going down there 11 and picking it up, or it could have been shipped by 12 common carrier from there to -- to one of the 13 facilities. 14 Q. Okay. Do you know what happened to that 15 facility? 16 A. No. I do not. 17 Q. Is the building still there? Do you know 18 if they sold the building or kept the building? 19 A. I have no idea. 20 Q. Or the building is tom down? Do you know 21 where the street location of that facility was? 22 A. I --oh, I have heard it. It's on the 23 south end of Houston. That's all I know. I may -- 24 I could find that, but I don't know it off the top 25 of my head. 1 Q. Where would the Kelly-Moore records be 2 kept now that would have reflected who the 3 management people were at that facility while it was 4 open, as well as any of the other records that were 5 kept at that facility regarding their sales and ; 6 distribution of the product during the time it was 7 open? 8 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 9 A. The repository in San Carlos, there was 10 about 88 boxes there of different information that 11 was all accumulated relevant to asbestos. I have -- 12 and I have gone through those, but I don't remember 13 seeing anything in there that addressed it, 14 addressed Trilite individually. Maybe there could 15 be something in those boxes that I missed. Other 16 than that, I have no idea where the material -- 17 where the information could be. 18 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Do you know why it was that 19 there was a decision made for Kelly-Moore to import 20 the vermiculite and wash it, or do whatever you were 21 describing, processing there, to use it in its 22 ingredients as opposed to buying it from vendors as 23 had been done at some point in time? 24 A. My understanding of the reason of buying 25 it from Africa at the time was that it was the Page 95 Page 97 1 Q. Okay. Do you know if the actual facility 2 and the land there is still there? 3 A. I would assume the land is. I can't tell 4 you about the facility. 5 Q. Let's hope the land is still there anyway. 6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. But - but I am just saying the integrity 8 of the complex, the original property, whatever 9 vacant land was there and the building, if that's 10 all still there? If it's all been tom down, 11 something has been built on top of it? 12 A. I can't answer that. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. I can't answer that. 15 Q. So you don't know if you could go down 16 there and see anything that looks anything like the 17 photo there now? 18 A. No, I could not. 19 Q. Okay. Who would know more about that at 20 Kelly-Moore now? 21 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 22 A. I really don't know. The - 23 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Were the -- 24 A. Some of the ex-employees, the old timers 25 may, but that goes back quite awhile. 1 better quality, and it was a prime source not only 2 for Kelly-Moore to get it there, but other companies 3 as well, and that's my understanding of why it was 4 Africa. 5 Q. Do you know how it was shipped to this 6 facility? Was it in cargo containers off of ships, 7 or - 8 A. That would be an assumption. I can't 9 answer that, sir. 10 Q. Any idea of the type of volume of raw 11 material that went through the facility year to 12 year? 13 A. I have not researched that. 14 Q. Do you know what years that facility was 15 open doing the vermiculite process you have 16 described? 17 A. I wanted to say early sixties, but again, 18 I'd have to go back and research the dates. That 19 was a short --from my recollection, that was a 20 short-term operation. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. S o - 23 Q. Did the --when this facility closed, 24 where did the vermiculite come from that was still 25 being used in the product lines? NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 25 (Pages 94 to 97) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1c-00045a4bdea' Page 98 1 Page 100 j 1 MR. HAZEN: Objection. 2 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Or was vermiculite still 3 being used in the product lines? 4 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 5 A. This facility was sold. The business.was 6 sold to someone in Arkansas, Pine Bluff, I believe, 7 somewhere like that. And the business was sold to 8 them, and then we -- the company in turn was then 9 buying, I believe, from them. 10 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. So you-all sold this 11 facility to someone else. They continued to do the 12 same thing that Kelly-Moore had done while they 13 owned it and you-all continued to buy the same 14 product from them? 15 A. We didn't sell them the facility. We sold 16 them the business rights to the material. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. And I think everything was transferred to 19 Arkansas. 20 Q. And you-all kept the building and just 21 leased it back, leased the premises to them? 22 A. I have no idea, sir. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. No idea. 25 Q. Again, anybody that you know o f that would 1 Q. The vermiculite that was used from this 2 facility, you understood it to have gone into the 3 Paco lines, the textures, joint compounds? 4 A. I believe some o f that material went into 5 the Paco lines, that is correct. 6 Q. Okay. And we also understand that 7 asbestos was used at some point in time in those 8 product lines? 9 A. Asbestos was an ingredient in the Paco 10 products, yes, sir. 11 Q. Okay. Do you know if under the 12 specifications they were using both the vermiculite 1 13 from this facility, as well as asbestos from other 1 14 facilities, in their texture andjoint compounds at I 15 the same time? 1 16 A. I can't answer that. | 17 Q. Okay. Do you know if the asbestos became 1 18 a replacement or substitute for the vermiculite in 1 19 the products at some point? 1 20 A. It couldn't have. Asbestos and the I 21 vermiculite are two different types o f elements that I 22 you're dealing with. Asbestos is a very thin fiber. 1 23 The vermiculite would have been puffy little things 1 24 that you put in to give it texture, a roughness. 1 25 Q. Okay. Do you know how long it was that | Page 99 Page 101 I 1 be more familiar with that business transaction? 2 A. Off the top o f my head, it would be - - 1 3 -- whatever I tell you would be an assumption and I 4 would rather not do that. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. But it goes back 40 some years, so -- 7 Q. Okay. Yeah, we're talking about something 8 that transpired in the sixties, correct? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. Who was the head of --who had your title 11 at Kelly-Moore in the sixties, that would have been 12 likely to have overseen some aspects o f those 13 operations? 14 A. You talking about president? 15 Q. Yes, sir. 16 A. O f this division? Well, we never had one 17 before. I was the first. So I don't know how they 18 would have been managed. When we go back to the 19 chart, it's been helpful. It's not even oh here, 20 but I would assume, it looks like it was -- whoever 21 it was running it reported directly to the president 22 at the time, which would have been Mr. Moore. So I 23 can't answer your question. 24 Q. Okay. 25 A. Wish I could. I can't. 1 the vermiculite from that facility that we have been j 2 talking about was used in the Paco product lines? 1 3 A. No. Again, I'd have to go back to the 1 4 dates, and, again, I have no idea at what time this I 5 thing totally shut down, or how long it was in 6 business. Ijust can't answer that, sir. 7 Q. Okay. 8 MR. HAZEN: Hey, Brent, we're at 9 noon, so if you're at a stopping point, maybe we can 10 pick up and finish up with the brochure after lunch. 11 MR. COON: Sure. That's fine. 1 12 MR. HAZEN: Good. 1 13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going o ff the 1 14 record at 11:56. 1 15 (A lunch recess was taken.) | 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the I 17 record. The time is 1:02. I 18 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Mr. Giffins, when we left 1 19 off at the break, we were looking through the 1 20 brochure. I think page 5698 Bates stamp. I wanted i 21 to ask you a few additional questions regarding the 1 22 -- we talked about the Trilite plant. The next one | 23 under here talks about the joint cement production I 24 of Kelly-Moore in the Dallas factory. Could you 1 25 tell us about that facility, please, sir? 1 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 26 (Pages 98 to 101) 36766920-761c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 102 Page 104 1 A. My --my involvement with the Dallas --my 2 knowledge of the Dallas factory would only have been 3 that it was originally Hanna. They obviously were 4 making some joint compound which I was not aware of. 5 But the -- that was the factory that was basically, 6 I think, separate from Hurst, and then we opened 7 Hurst in 1970. 8 Q. Was that located on the --generally the 9 same premises as your Hurst facility? 10 A. No, that would have been here in Dallas. 11 Q. Okay. And you had thought before that was 12 principally a paint manufacturer that you had 13 acquired, the Lianna facility? 14 A. Yes, sir. 35 Q. But in - in reviewing - I'm trying to 16 find out, did reviewing this literature make you 17 aware that they also made textures, or did you 18 already know that and just had not remembered it? 19 A. Somehow I missed this. I thought the 20 Hanna deal was strictly Hanna Paint Company, and 21 that the --if any joint compounds were made, it 22 would have been made in that factory when we bought 23 them, before moving into the Hurst in '70. 24 Q. Okay. And when was that --Hanna 25 acquired? Was that '63? 1 Q. Okay. I take it you still don't have any 2 personal knowledge with respect to whether or not 3 the Hanna facility made the same joint cements 4 before Kelly-Moore acquired them? 5 A. I do not, sir. 6 Q. Okay. Do you know how long that facility 7 had been in operation prior to the time Kelly-Moore 8 acquired it in '63? 9 A. I do not. 10 Q. Do you know who the ownership was at the 11 time of acquisition? 12 A. I do not. 13 Q. Would there be archived records with 14 respect to the identity of the personnel from that 15 facility? 16 A. Well, there has obviously got to be some 17 paperwork somewhere, or it's since disappeared, you 18 know, or gone. But I can't answer that. I don't -- 19 Q. If --I take it you --do you know whether 20 or not the --the texture materials that were made 21 there would have been the same type of basic 22 composition as the Paco lines? 23 A. What do you mean, same composition? 24 Q. Same ingredients. 25 A. Well, if there -- first of all, if there Page 103 Page 105 1 A. I think it was '63. 2 Q. So, if the facility was acquired in '63, 3 it's apparent from this brochure that they made 4 joint compounds at the Dallas facility, and I am 5 trying to find out if you know if it was something 6 they were already making when you bought the plant, 7 or if it was something that Kelly-Moore continued to 8 make at that plant after they acquired it in '63? 9 A. I do not know. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. I do not know. 12 Q. Do you know whether or not they made any 13 of the Paco lines there post '63? 14 A. Well, it says joint cement production, so 15 I'm - - 1 am assuming that probably they would have. 16 Q. Would there be any other records from that 17 facility, that were retained in a repository or 18 something for Kelly-Moore to go back and look to see 19 what --exactly what type ofjoint compounds, or 20 . joint cements, or texturing cements were made out at 21 that plant, and what the name o f the products were? 22 A. Again, I think any records, like I 23 mentioned earlier, that would be available would be 24 part of the repository, the eighty so m e b o x e s that 25 are listed there. 1 were stuff made there prior to Paco, the products 2 were pretty similar. A lot of the competitive 3 products were fairly similar. So if the 4 composition, the basic composition may have been 5 similar, but how they were put together and the 6 amount of raw material might could have been 7 different from supplier to supplier. 8 Q. Do you know what type of trade name the 9 Hanna facility operated under? Do they have 10 different identifying trademarks -- 11 A. My knowledge - 12 Q. --for their products? 13 A. - is that it was Hanna Paint Company and 14 that's how they identified their --their material 15 as well. 16 Q. Was itjust called Hanna paints? 17 A. Hanna, right. 18 Q. Do you know --I take it you don't know if 19 they made the textures before Kelly-Moore bought it? 20 A. I can't answer that, sir. 21 Q. So you do not know if there was a Hanna 22 texturing compounds orjoint compounds product line? 23 A. No, I do not. 24 Q. Do you know if the facility that was 25 acquired there was one that was a manufacturing NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 27 (Pages 102 to 105) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bd Page 106 \ Page 108 1 1 facility, where they actually manufactured the 2 product there? 3 A. When we bought Hanna, there was a plant, 4 because they were making their own paint. 5 Q. And what happened to that facility? 6 A. I have no idea. 7 Q. Do you know if it was sold, if there's 8 still manufacturing processing there, if the 9 building is still there? 10 A, I can't answer that. I am not even sure I 11 know where it is, but it was -- it was somewhere 12 here in Dallas. 13 Q. To your knowledge, were any joint 14 compounds or texturing compounds sold by Kelly-Moore 15 after the acquisition of Hanna under names other 16 than the Paco line? 17 A. At --after the acquisition of Hanna? 18 Q. Yes, sir. 19 A. Sold where? 20 Q. Anywhere. 21 A. Well, we got into the business in '60. 22 Q. Right. With Paco? 23 A. S o -w ith Paco. So, yes, i f - 1 mean we 24 --we would have sold Paco after --we would have 25 been selling Paco at the time we bought Hanna. 1 if we go through some more pages o f this real { 2 quickly, it talks about diversifying, moving, 1 3 expanding geographically. Do you know about --"The 1 4 Do-It-Yourself Trade." Here is a section on "The 1 5 Professional Side." Talks about some o f the control 6 aspects, I think talks about their quality 1 7 control -- 8 A. Yeah, this -- 9 Q. I think it's talking about maybe dealing 10 with professional contractors here. 11 A. Uh-huh. 12 Q. Or have I missed it? Is that what this is 13 discussing? 14 A. No, it's primarily talking that the stores 15 are set up as a full service center for the painting I 16 contractor. I 17 Q. Okay. Real briefly on that subject 1 18 matter, you had a lot of retail stores where an | 19 individual customer such as you or I could go in to 1 20 buy some paint or texturing compound, correct? 1 21 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 1 22 A. Well, stores are open for anybody to come 1 23 in and buy from us, sure. 1 24 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Sure. So, I could just 1 25 drive my car down -- say this is 1965,1 could have 1 Page 107 Page 109 1 Q. Sure. But do you know whether or not 2 there were other names on any o f the joint 3 compounds, or texturing material sold by Kelly-Moore 4 other than the Paco line? 5 A. I do not know. I have not seen anything 6 directly that says that we did, but again, prior to 7 1960, before we got into that business, there was 8 material out there on the market. Now, whether, in 9 fact, Kelly-Moore was buying somebody else's 10 material, I don't know that; but prior to 1960, 11 before we got into it, it could have been. 12 Q. Well, that was another thing I wanted to 13 ask you a little more about later, with respect to 14 rebranding as it relates to texturing materials, but 15 since you brought it up, do you know whether or not 16 Kelly-Moore sold any of the products like joint 17 compounds and texture materials before '60, under 18 either their name, or under another vendor's name at 19 their stores? 20 A. Iam not aware. The only one I --only 21 one that I am aware of that was sold under a 22 different brand name was that Georgia Pacific that I 23 mentioned to you. 24 Q. If we thumb briefly through the rest of 25 the brochure, it's a pretty extensive brochure, but 1 drove my car down to one o f your local retail shops 2 and bought a gallon o f paint, or a bucket, or a bag 3 of texturing compound? 4 A. You --you could do that. You could do 1 5 that. I 6 Q. Just as an individual customer? 1 7 A. The only difference is the paint is 1 8 packaged in a way that the individual customer could 9 have purchased it, and used it effectively. The 10 drywall material was packaged in large 25-pound 11 bags, which the normal consumer, retail, like you 12 and I, would not normally have purchased in that 13 quantity because they wouldn't have ever used that 14 much. 15 Q. Okay. What sizes o f the Paco containers 16 were there with the different texturing compounds 1 17 andjoint compounds? 1 18 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 1 19 A. There were bags, 25-pound bags, 50-pound | 20 bags in the dries, and then the premix there were 1 21 what you might call gallon sizes, and there were 1 22 four gallon sizes as far as the quantities. 23 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Did the gallons come in a 24 can, or a plastic container? 25 A. The gallons came in, like, a NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713)861-0203 28 (Pages 106 to 109) 36766920-761c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 110 Page 112 1 cardboard-type thing. 2 Q. Okay. Now, if we looked at the brochure, 3 apparently there was some degree of effort by 4 Kelly-Moore to sell to the contracting trades. 5 A. Big effort. 6. Q. All right. And that would have been small 7 contractors and big contractors, any contractors? 8 A. The company's philosophy has always been 9 directed toward the painting contractor. And any 10 retail business that we do is just what basically 11 would have happened just from the store being there, 12 but the emphasis was on the painting contractor. 13 Q. When they acquired the Paco lines, do you 14 know if there was any additional efforts to capture 15 a portion of the drywall contractor business? 16 A. From what I --what I have read, and the 17 only way I can answer that, sir, is to tell you the 18 basis of why that type o f business appealed to the 19 company at that time, is back in the sixties people 20 were --a lot o f painting contractors were also 21 doing drywall, and it seemed to be a natural tie-in 22 to have that available to our painting contractors, 23 since, again, we were primarily in the contractor 24 wholesale business, it seemed like a natural tie-in 25 to have joint compounds. 1 A. That is correct. 2 Q. Was the San Carlos factory the main 3 production facility for the Paco texture lines for 4 the West Coast? 5 A. Yes, it was. 6 Q. Where were the other Paco manufacturing 7 facilities located? 8 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 9 A. What - at what time frame are you talking 10 about? 11 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. Well, let's go back 12 to - first, let's just finish this brochure. I 13 don't think there is hardly anything else we need to 14 really discuss. It talks about sales. Okay. 1 15 think that covers that basically. 16 Let's talk specifically, then, about the Paco 17 product line. Kelly-Moore acquired that facility in 18 what? Was it 1960? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. And it was acquisitioned out of a 21 previously operating facility? 22 A. It was acquisitioned from a gentleman by 23 the name of Cliff Woodland, yes, sir. 24 Q. And when Kelly-Moore bought out this 25 company, what were --let me back up. What was the Page 111 1 Q. So as I understand, at that time frame 2 most of the contractors or a large portion of the 3 contractors you dealt with in the painting sector 4 were also the same contractors that were putting the 5 sheetrock up, and taping it and floating it and then 6 painting it? 7 A. During those days, that's basically -- 8 they did both, a lot of them did both. 9 Q. Okay. So it made sense to have the 10 texturing compound, the product lines there along 11 with the paint since you were already targeting the 12 painting contractors in various communities? 13 A. It's my understanding, yes. 14 Q. I think this --this --there are several 15 pages of discussion about contractors, and selling 16 to contractors, and --okay. Then we have a couple 17 of photographs here that show the Paco textures, and 18 home improvement, and K-M paint lines. Is this at 19 the California facility? 20 A. Yes, it is. 21 Q. That's at San Carlos? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And it appears from the way these were 24 written on top of the buildings, that all o f these 25 different facilities were all in the same compound? Page 113 1 name of the company you-all bought? 2 A. Paco. 3 Q. Okay. It was already named Paco? 4 A. That is correct. 5 Q. How long had Paco been in business? 6 A. Two years. 7 Q. So, they started in '58? 8 A. '58. 9 Q. And what were the product lines that they 10 manufactured? 11 A. At that time, they were primarily 12 manufacturing the dry joint compounds. 13 Q. And what was the market for the dryjoint 14 compounds? 15 A. Market as -- 16 Q. Intended use. 17 A. To seal the --to cover, fill in the 18 joints of drywall, and make the drywall appear 19 smooth, so that you have a continuous wall. 20 Q. Part o f the taping and floating 21 procedure -- 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. --is that you're engaged with drywall or 24 sheetrock? 25 A. Yes. NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713)861-0203 29 (Pages 110 to 113) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bc Page 114 ' Page 116 1 Q. And, as I understood, the desire by 2 Kelly-Moore to acquire this facility was because of 3 this hand-in-hand philosophy o f painting contractors 4 and drywall contractors? 5 A. It's my understanding that it was -- at 6 that time that was part of the reason for doing 7 that, yes. 8 Q. And at the time this facility was 9 acquired, where were their operating facilities and 10 manufacturing facilities located? 11 A. Whose? Kelly-Moore's or -- 12 Q. Paco's. 13 A. Paco's? Paco's was in Richmond, 14 California. 15 Q. And was that their operating facility or 16 manufacturing or both? 17 A. That was both, to my understanding. 18 Q. Did they have any other facilities? 19 A. No, not that I'm aware of. 20 Q. Did they have a distribution system? 21 A. Not --I --I can't answer that, sir. I 22 don't know. 23 Q. After the facility was acquired in 1960, 24 what type of expansion took place within that 25 division? 1 A. I assume to provide better facilities. 2 Q. Was it a bigger facility or more 3 efficient, or better geographic location? 4 A. I wasn't --I wasn't part o f the --around 5 at that time, so anything I tell you would be an 6 assumption. 7 Q. Okay. What happened to the facility in 8 Richmond? | j 9 A. I do not know. j 10 Q. Was it still operating by some other 11 entity? Did somebody else buy it, continue to make 1 12 dryjoint compound there? I 13 A. To the best o f my knowledge, no. All that I 14 entire operation was moved into San Carlos. 15 Q. Do you know if they actually moved the j| 16 physical equipment from Richmond to San Carlos? 1 17 A. It's my understanding they did. 1 18 Q. So they just picked up the plant and moved j 19 it to another location? 20 A. Correct. | 21 Q. And was it your understanding that in I 22 addition to moving the original equipment in I 23 Richmond, that they also expanded on the facility to I 24 make either more o f the product or different 1 25 products? J Page 115 Pagell7 | 1 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 2 A. Within the Paco division? 3 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Yes, sir. 4 A. I don't know if there was any expansion. 5 Maybe I am --maybe I won't answer your -- your 6 question correctly, but when it was purchased in 7 '60, we continued to operate it at that location up 8 through '64; and that material, that drywall 9 material, is what went into Kelly-Moore stores in 10 that area that were serviced by -- 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. --that facility. 13 Q. Any idea o f what type o f volume o f the dry 14 joint compound was produced each year, those four 15 years? 16 A. I can't answer that, sir. 17 Q. Do you know whether or not Kelly-Moore 18 retains any records that would reflect the volume of 19 manufacturing o f those goods at that facility? 20 A. If there's records available, they would 21 be in that repository. 22 Q. And what happened in 1964? 23 A. The Richmond facility was located --was 24 moved to San Carlos. 25 Q. And what was the reason for the move? 1 A. Well, they didn't make anymore products, j 2 they just brought over what they were making. 1 3 Q. Okay. 1 4 A. I --having never seen Richmond, I can't J 5 tell you if it was an expansion or not, to be honest I 6 with you. . 1 7 Q. And how long did the San Carlos facility 8 continue to operate, from '64 until when? 9 A. As far as making Paco? 10 Q. Yes, sir. 11 A. The --they --we finished --we ceased 12 making Paco in 1982. That was suspended -- 13 Q. Okay. Now -- 14 A. -- as a company. 15 Q. Now, when we're talking about Paco and 16 ceasing production in '82, are we talking about the 17 - the Paco dryjoint compound, or other product 18 lines that they also manufactured at later days? 19 A. When I talk about '82, that's when the 1 20 company decided to get out o f the business, so j 21 whatever products they were making at the time, 1 22 everything was discontinued. 1 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. During the earlier period from 1964 on, 1 25 there were some product lines that were added to the NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 30 (Pages 114 to 117) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 118 Page 120 1 Paco assortment; but in '82, everything was 2 eliminated. 3 Q. Okay. So as I understand that, from '60 4 to '64, the only product that was made at the 5 facility, which was then located in Richmond, was 6 \ called Paco dry joint compound? 7 A. To the best of my knowledge, it was the 8 joint compounds. 9 Q. Okay. And that was, I believe, an 10 asbestos-containing material, was it not? 11 A. That is correct. 12 Q. And then from '64 to '82, the facility 13 operated in its new location in San Carlos, 14 California? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. And during that time frame, not only did 17 they continue to make the dry joint compound for 18 some period of time, but they also expanded into 19 some other product lines under the Paco name? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. Okay. And then in 1982, they quit making 22 anything under the Paco name, or they shut down the 23 plant? What did they do? 24 A. We shut --all the Paco operations were 25 shut down throughout the company. I Q. Okay. When did they start making paint 2 there? 3 A. We moved to that location in 1952 -- '56, 4 I believe. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. Now, I --don't hold me to it. 7 Q. Okay. So, I better understand, and you 8 probably said this earlier, but when the Richmond 9 plant closed in '64 and moved to San Carlos, they 10 moved to the same location where there was already 11 an existing Kelly-Moore paint facility? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Okay. Now, I understand. So, you already 14 had paint there, and then you bring the texturing 15 in, in '64? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. And then '82, you shut down the texturing, 18 or all the Paco lines, correct? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. And you still have the paint product lines 21 that were there before '64 and after '82? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. Okay. Anything else other than the paint 24 lines? 25 A. Anything --where, at that facility? Page 119 Page 121 1 Q. Okay. Did that shut down that whole 2 facility, or was the facility in 1982 making things 3 other than the Paco product lines? 4 A. Well, as the map indicates, that area was 5 also on the paint plant. 6 Q. Okay. So they expanded into Paco other 7 Paco product lines between '64 and '82, and also 8 other product lines other than Paco? 9 MR.HAZEN: Objection. 10 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Like paint? II MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 12 A. I'm confused now. 13 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. I am, too. From 14 '64 to '82, the San Carlos facility continued to 15 make Paco product lines of various sorts? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Did they make anything at that facility 18 during those years other than the Paco product 19 lines? 20 A. In the actual building, where Paco was 21 located? 22 Q. Just the same facility. Not necessarily 23 in the same building. I don't know how many 24 buildings you have there. 25 A. We made paint. 1 Q. Yes, sir. 2 A. Well, one of the home improvement centers 3 was there. 4 Q. Okay. And what years was the home 5 improvement center there? 6 A. Oh, I think that particular one started 7 around mid '70s, and that was shut down in 19 - 8 around '87, '88. 9 Q. And would they have sold their Paco 10 product lines right there at their home facility? 11 A. I believe they would have, yes. 12 Q. And I take it their paints would be sold 13 there at the home improvement facility as well? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Anything else other than the Paco lines; 16 the paint business, and the home improvement 17 facility that was there for a period of time in the 18 '70s and '80s? 19 A. Not to my knowledge. 20 Q. Okay. Let's next talk, then, more about 21 the Paco product lines. 22 Over the years, how many different Paco product 23 lines were made, if you know? 24 MR. HAZEN; Objection, form. 25 A. Over the years? Since when? From - NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713)861-0203 31 (Pages 118 to 121) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bc Page 122 Page 124 ] 1 Q. (By Mr. Coon) From the time you first 2 acquired the Paco product lines in 1960 until the 3 present. 4 A. So it would b e '60 through'82. I amjust 5 trying to count them up in my head. I'd say.there 6 was probably about maybe 15 or 16 different product 7 lines. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. Now, when I --I'm sorry, I got to clarify 10 that. I don't think there were that many different 11 product lines, because some o f those products had 12 two different --some o f them came in dry, and some 13 of them came in wet, so there may have been a couple 14 -- a few products where you had both dry and wet, 15 and that's what I am calling the total o f 16, but in 16 essence, it could have been only one type of 17 product. 18 Q. Okay. Let's --let me show you what I 19 have. We have been provided with the boxes that you 20 told us you looked at earlier. 21 A. The six boxes that we gave you? 22 Q. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. We --I have looked 23 at those, and some folks in my office have looked at 24 those, and we tried to go through and sort some 25 things out. Let me show you what we have. There 1 MR. COON: Yeah, that's fine. ! 2 MR. HAZEN: Let's just go off real j 3 quick and just make sure. 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going o ff the 5 record at 1:26. 6 (A recess was taken.) 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going on the 8 record. The time is 1:39 p.m., May 31st, 2002. j 9 Beginning o f Tape 2. 10 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. Mr. Giffins, we 11 have taken another brief break to go back and look j 12 at some photographs and some additional charts that 13 you have in front o f you. And I want to first go 14 back as a matter of housekeeping, and ask you before j 15 the break about the different kinds of products that 16 Kelly-Moore had manufactured that at one point in | 17 time had asbestos. And you had identified a number | 18 of them, I think, to try to make a rough 1 19 guesstimate. j 20 This is what's identified as KM 1019, counsel 1 21 also KM BB 6549. It was provided to us as a list o f 22 31 products. Have you had an opportunity to look at j 23 that? 24 A. I don't recall having seen this particular 1 25 sheet. I am familiar with some o f the products that Page 123 Page 125 1 1 are some photographs of a number o f Paco --what I 2 believe to be Paco products. If I could have you 3 identify these for us, might have a few additional 4 questions o f you. 5 MR. HAZEN: Brent, if you would, as 6 you go through them, would you read off for me the 7 document number down on the right-hand side and that 8 way I can track them? I won't have to look at them. 9 MR. COON: Yes, sir. Although, the 10 numbers that are on these are our identifying 11 numbers, if that's okay with you. 12 MR. HAZEN: Okay. So you've --do 13 you mind, I am going to come around andjust take a 14 peek at them real quick. 15 MR. COON: Yeah. These may be ones 16 --I am looking for what you-all had as the BB 17 numbers. 18 MR. HAZEN: Right. Did you go over 19 the BB numbers? 20 MR. COON: These don't have -- no, I 21 don't think so. I don't think these had BB numbers, 22 which makes me wonder if these came out of the boxes 23 or not. 24 MR. HAZEN: You want to go off the 25 record real quick? 1 are listed on here. Yeah. j 2 Q. Okay. The- - the first thing I wanted to f 3 ask on there, o f the 31 products that were j 4 identified as containing asbestos, how many o f those I 5 were under the Paco umbrella? I 6 Obviously, a number o f them are because they J 7 actually had the Paco name, but I don't know if all 8 of them are or some of them are. 9 A. To the best o f my knowledge, they all I 10 would have been. They all would have been. 1 11 Q. Okay. So, if we look at the list o f the 1 12 31 there that are identified, even if it doesn't say 1 13 Paco in front of it, we believe it to be a Paco 1 14 product? I 15 A. Yeah, the taping compound. Yeah, I'd have 1 16 to say that is true. Yes. 1 17 Q. Okay. Do you have a recollection o f 1 18 Kelly-Moore ever making any of those products under 1 19 any name other than the Paco umbrella? j 20 A. Iam not aware o f that, sir. 1 21 Q. Okay. So the only ones we would have in 1 22 addition to this, from what you recall, would be the 23 possibility of what was rebranded with Georgia 1 24 Pacific at some point in time in the late '60s, 1 25 early '70s? | NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 32 (Pages 122 to 125) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c 1c-00045a4bdea7 Page 126 Page 128 1 A. Could you ask me that question again, 2 please? 3 Q. Yes, sir. The only products that we have 4 here that were Kelly-Moore's asbestos-containing 5 products that would supplement this would be those 6 \ that were rebranded through Georgia Pacific, to the 7 best o f your recollection? 8 A. The Georgia Pacific products would have 9 not have been sold through a Kelly-Moore store. 10 Q. Okay. So you wouldn't have them on a list 11 like this anyway because you considered those to be 12 separate because they were rebranded? 13 A. Thai's correct. 14 Q. Okay. We next have - let me ask you one 15 more question. Of the list here, does anything seem 16 to be inaccurate with respect to this list, being 17 one o f those products that contained asbestos? 18 In other words, can you look at the list and 19 say this one shouldn't be on there because I know 20 for a fact that one did not contain asbestos? 21 A. What --are you talking in --from the 22 time --from the beginning to '60 through '82? Some 23 time frame some of these were converted to not 24 contain asbestos. 25 Q. I understand that. Probably the --first, 1 Purpose Joint Compound. 2 Q. Okay. Was there a particular reason that 3 you would have big numbers, 5515 on there? Does 4 that have any particular significance? 5 A. I can't say that it would. Sometimes 6 contractors buy by numbers and they --or they buy 7 by names, and so it -- this probably was there more 8 as a convenience thing. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. We do that with our paint. 11 Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not when 12 Kelly-Moore acquired this product line if those 13 numbers were already there, the bags looked similar 14 to this at the time you acquired the facility? 15 A. No, I do not. I have not seen bags from 16 what they looked like when we bought Paco. 17 Q. Okay. So do you know whether or not there 18 was even a Paco --Paco logo like that one on any of 19 the bags? 20 A. I - - 1 don't know, sir. 21 Q. Do we know if the Paco logo existed in any 22 form like that prior to the acquisition by 23 Kelly-Moore? 24 A. I do not know that. 25 Q. Okay. And we don't know if the 5515 there Page 127 Page 129 1 is can you look at the list and say I know for a 2 fact this product never had asbestos in it? 3 A. 1 can't say that. 4 Q. Okay. Now, we next have a number o f what 5 I believe to be photographs of various bags or 6 containers of Paco product lines. 7 A. I got it. 8 Q. And I'll show you what are marked KM 1025 9 through 1041, and there may be a couple o f them 10 missing, but there is a - pretty much a package 11 here. Are - can you tell us, and looking at -- 12 let's just look at the first one there, and actually 13 if you don't mind, if we can just flip that around 14 and show it to the camera so we have got an idea of 15 what we're looking at. 16 This says Paco Joint Compound, and the Paco 17 would be the --I guess the trade name for the 18 product? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. Okay. Now, we have a number on it, for 21 that one is 5515. Is there any particular 22 identifications o f that number? Does that tell you 23 something? 24 A. No. That's the number assigned to that 25 particular product. The product itself would be All 1 means anything with respect to the ingredients or 2 anything like that? 3 A. Well, that would be a product number. It 4 has --has nothing at all to do with the 5 ingredients. 6 Q. Okay. And then it says joint compound. 7 Now, what would that product have generally been 8 used for? 9 A. That would have been used to seal the - 10 the basic joints. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. And then you lay the tape on top, and then 13 put a finish coat on top of that. 14 Q. Is this the dry joint compound you talked 15 to us earlier about? 16 A. This is the dry and --the material in the 17 bag would be the dry, correct. 18 Q. And would that have come in the 25- and 19 50-pound bags? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. And would this kind o f be a - for people 22 that have not - can't readily put their - picture 23 on what it would look like, would it look kind of 24 like the bags of ready-mix concrete you could buy 25 from a home improvement store, that kind of bag, NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 33 (Pages 126 to 129) 36766920-761 c -11d6-8c 1c-00045a 4be Page 130 Page 132 1 just a tear-off top? 2 A. Yeah, I guess you could say that. 3 Q. Okay. Do you recall the colors o f the 4 bags? Kind of brown? White? 5 A. Sort o f grocery store brown type thing in 6 different colors depending at the time whatever the 7 bags were printed. 8 Q. Did Kelly-Moore have a typical supplier of 9 the bags for the various joint compounds and 10 cements? 11 A. To the best o f my knowledge, Saint Regis 12 is the one that supplied the bags to the company. 13 Q. And would Kelly-Moore just tell them how 14 they would want the bags logoed and stencilled? 15 A. Kelly-Moore would have influence on that, 16 but Saint Regis also since they had a staff of 17 professionals that did this kind of thing, I am sure 18 probably provided some input as well. 19 Q. Okay. Now, if we look --do you know when 20 these photographs were taken? 21 A. I have no idea. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. When these were taken right here? 24 Q. Yes, sir. 25 A. I have no idea. 1 yes. 1 2 Q. And then you may have some indentations in | 3 the sheetrock where the nail was embedded into the | 4 sheetrock? j 5 A. The nails are countersunk. That is 6 correct. j 7 Q. Sure. So you go back and you would take j 8 this, mix it with the water to a make kind of a mud 9 or something that's --has a composition kind of | 10 like mud? j 11 A. Similar, yes. j 12 Q. And then you would take a trowel or j 13 something and spread it over the cracks to fill in j 14 all the cracks? 15 A. Correct. j 16 Q. And you would also fill it in over the 17 indentions where the hammers knock the nails in to 18 hold the wall --the sheetrock up? 19 A. Correct. j 20 Q. Okay. . j 21 A. And then you put the tape on top o f the j 22 seam, and then you put generally another coat on top 23 o f that as a finishing coat. I 24 Q. So, if we looked at the rolls that you 25 showed us earlier, the big rolls of paper, that - ----- - - - ---- - -- -- ---------------------- . Page 131 Page 133 1 Q. Let's talk briefly about the next one. We 2 have a bag. This one's 1026, this one says, Paco 3 Vinyl Joint Compound, and it's got kind of a 4 striping pattern to it. 5 A. Right. 6 Q. What was that used for? 7 A. That was used for the same thing as the 8 All Purpose Joint --but this could only have been 9 used in joint compounds, or doing joints. This 10 could have been used doing a few other little 11 things, such as you might want to use it as a --as 12 a top coat as well. 13 Q. Okay. And the top coat, for the Ladies 14 and Gentlemen o f the Jury that are not familiar with 15 the drywall --drywall processing, what would that 16 be? 17 A. Okay. You have two pieces of drywall that 18 come together -- 19 Q. Okay. This would be like in your house if 20 you have a four-foot by eight-foot sheet o f drywall, 21 what a lot o f people just call sheetrock because of 22 the popularity o f that trade name, but if you buy 23 sheetrock or drywall, and you put it up on the wall 24 and nail it up, you got your cracks, correct? 25 A. Where the two sheets butt up together, 1 would be the tape that would come out in pools and J 2 you would just -- like giant rolls of --I guess if j 3 you do something by analogy, it would be like a --a J 4 bathroom paper or something, comes in a long roll I 5 and you just pull it out, off o f the seam? 1 6 A. You could. It's a lot thicker than 1 7 bathroom paper. It's a lot thicker. 1 8 Q. Right. And in bigger rolls, but similar 1 9 analogy? 1 10 A. Yes. I 11 Q. Okay. And you peel out whatever you need, I 12 and tear it off. You can tear it off by hand or 1 13 with your tool I suspect? 8 14 A. Correct. 1 15 Q. And then you put it over the crack and j 16 then you smooth out the paper with your trowel as 1 17 well? I 18 A. Correct. 1 19 Q. And then you have a finished surface to I 20 work with, correct? | 21 A. And then you would put - you put a top I 22 coat on top o f it. 1 23 Q. Okay. Now, what would be involved in 1 24 putting a top coat on? 1 25 A. You would trowel that on like you would 1 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713)861-0203 34 (Pages 130 to 133) 36766920-761c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 134 Page 136 1 have troweled the base coat. 2 Q. Okay. And there are a lot of different 3 ways you can apply the sheetrock with your texturing 4 compounds to give it different types of finishes for 5 your ceilings and your walls? You can have a lumpy 6 finish or you can have a wavy finish, all kinds of 7 different tools to leave different patterns in the 8 wall? 9 A. Well, that's different than the mud. The 10 mud is what we refer to as mud. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. The joint compound is what fills the 13 joints, beds the tape, and then goes on top of the 14 --o f the tape. When you do the texture, the wall 15 texture, that's a separate step. That's --that's 16 done after all this is done, and it's a different 17 type o f material. 18 Q. Okay. So, in a commercial or residential 19 application, you put your boards up, the studs, the 20 wall frame, and then you take the sheetrock, or 21 drywall, nail it up to the studs to have a solid 22 wall, correct? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. And then you would take the mixtures you 25 have described here and you fill in the cracks and 1 Q. More three dimensional. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Okay. Well, let's talk about these other 4 products and how they were used. The next one you 5 have was the taping compound. This was Number 5525. 6 That also came in 25-pound and 50-pound bags? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. And what was it used for? 9 A. It was also - this was -- it gets a 10 little confusing. There was in the early days a lot 11 of these. There were many different types of 12 products. This taping compound could also be used 13 like the joint compound. It just performed a little 14 bit differently. So, these three products could all 15 have been used to do the same thing, only they just 16 --this particular product may have performed a 17 little bit differently than the All Purpose. So, a 18 lot of --some of this became preference to --from 19 the contractor. 20 Q. Did all three of those products basically 21 have the same ingredients? 22 A. That --if you're talking about 23 ingredients as far as raw materials? 24 Q. Yes, sir. 25 A. They may have varied, but they were Page 135 Page 137 1 the nail indentions, to get a finished surface to 1 similar, yes. 2 work with? 2 Q. Did all three of those have asbestos as 3 A. Correct. 3 one of the ingredients? 4 Q. And from there you can either put some 4 A. Yes. 5 other finishing touches on it or paint or whatever? 5 Q. Okay. Let's go next to 1029, looks like 6 A. You can leave it the way it is, and just 6 just some of the writing that's on one of the bags? 7 have the bare flat drywall, which would look like 7 A. Yeah. 8 what we have in this room, or then you can take and 8 Q. So we will go to 1030, that is Wall 9 put --or you could put a texture finish on it to 9 Texture. Okay. Could you tell us about that one? 10 give it a little bit o f a texture and then paint it. 10 A. It's got wall and ceiling texture on it. 11 Q. Okay. And Same with the ceilings, a lot 11 Do you need to see this, Scott? 12 o f homes and commercial businesses would have the 12 Q. And if we were to show this one, if we 13 drywall nailed to the ceiling as well, to the 13 could hold it up, it says, again, the Paco logo, and 14 ceiling joists? 14 it's called Paco-Tex Wall Texture. The other ones 15 A. Correct. 15 did not have Paco-Tex. Was there something in 16 Q. And you would do the same process, fill 16 particular that would cause that one to have an 17 in the cracks, fill in the flail holes, and many 17 additional trade name on it? 18 times the ceilings would have more of a textured 18 A. Well, other than I think the Tex applied 19 composition than the walls, where they would do it 19 to the fact that this was texture. 20 with brooms and all kinds of different ways to give 20 Q. Okay. 21 it patterns? 21 A. That's a yes. 22 A. When you say more o f a texture, talking 22 Q. Okay. And then what was it used for? 23 about a more defined texture? 23 A. The wall texture - it's a dry powder. 24 Q. Sure. 24 The wall texture is used to give that sort of a 25 A. Yes. 25 little bit of an effect on the wall, and the ceiling j NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 35 (Pages 134 to 137) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4b Page 138 Page 140 1 texture was the texture that went on the ceilings. 2 Q. Okay. That's the other bag next to it, 3 that was -- says Paco Textures and then it says 4 Number 6373, Deco-Tex? 5 A. Decorative ceiling texture. 6 Q. Okay. And was that pretty much the same 7 kind o f material as the wall texture material? What 8 was different about it? 9 A. It had a different type of aggregate in 10 it. It was a little bit rougher -- 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. --because you had a different finish. 13 Q. Okay. Gave it a - an ability to have a 14 little more o f a three-dimensional -- 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. --effect to it? 17 A. Uh-huh. 18 Q. Did it also come in 25-pound bags? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. It was a powder? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Dry powder, mix it with water? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Stir it all up and use it? 25 A. Right. 1 compared to something you would have as a kitchen 2 blender just on a bigger scale? 3 A. Yeah, the equipment that we were looking 4 at earlier this morning - 1 5 Q. Okay. | 6 A. - the Sprayline -- j 7 Q. Right. 8 A. --type material, that was made to spray 1 9 the material on. And what you would do, it was 10 somehow -- and I haven't seen the equipment, because 11 - that particular equipment, but the powder goes 12 in, the water goes in and then combines, and it j 13 squirts out. 14 Q. Right. And we talked about the Sprayline 1 15 products. You could actually -- if you had a lot of 16 this to do, you would not want to do it by handjust 1 17 because of the labor costs? So if you could spray j 18 it on with equipment it might be more time --time 19 saving? ; 20 A. I --I don't know if that's true, because j 21 a professional who knows how to use this, and if j 22 it's used properly, can go on rather quickly and 23 easily. | 24 Q. What would have been the benefits of using I 25 the Sprayline equipment, then? j Page 139 Page] 41 I 1 Q. How would these products typically be 2 mixed with water? We have gone through five or six 3 different 25-pound bags o f this. When you opened 4 them up, they were really just full o f the dry 5 ingredients? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. The clays, the cements, and whatever the 8 aggregates were, the asbestos, all of that was still 9 in powder form, kind o f like a giant bag of flour, 10 right? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. And if you -- and actually the bags are 13 kind o f like big bags o f flour, where you could tear 14 them open, paper bag and you tear them open, and 15 then you would dump them in the buckets and add 16 water? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. And then how would mix it up? Just stir 19 it up with a stick or whatever you had? 20 A. Whatever you had as to --had to mix it 21 through. 22 Q. For commercial applications where a lot of 23 this was used, did the contractors many times have 24 some sort of blending units, or equipment, mixing 25 equipment? Like giant blenders that you would -- 1 A. I f - | 2 Q. A different effect? 3 A. No. You -- on the joint compounds, you 4 really had to do that by hand. The spray was more 5 applicable to the texture when you're doing this 6 whole room, so you have gone through and done the ~ 7 Q. You have taped and floated? 8 A. You have done all that, which is basically 9 mostly done by hand, although there were - there 10 was some mechanical equipment that would help put 11 the tape on with the --with the bedding. But when 12 you get to the texturing, you're doing large 1 13 expansive areas, and that's where the machines came j 14 in handy. 1 15 Q. Okay. Now, you had a machine that would 16 --once all of this was mixed, you opened up these j 17 bags and mixed them with water, and got them all j 18 stirred up. Then you could have the machines spray j 19 it out for you? | 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 Q. Did the machine also mix it up for you? 22 Could you dump the 25-pound bags into some hopper on 1 23 the machine, and add water when you do that? J 24 A. Yes, sir. 1 25 Q. Okay. j NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 36 (Pages 138 to 141) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 142 1 A. It's my understanding that's how they 2 worked. 3 Q. So you think it was a one-step piece of 4 equipment. You didn't have to go mix it, and then 5 dump it in the equipment, you think you could dump 6 1 the powder in there and it had a hose connected to 7 it or something where the water would blend it into 8 a mud, and ready to go? 9 A. My recollection, you could do it both 10 ways. People would do that, mix it and put it in 11 some type of a hopper, small one, and you do it by 12 hand. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. Or you had machines where you dumped it in 15 and it all did it for you. 16 Q. Okay. Now, we go to the next one, this 17 just says Paco Textures, 1032. Is that maybe the 18 side o f another bag? 19 A. Yeah. It says Semi-Liquid, so this would 20 have been what we call ready-mix. 21 Q. Okay. Ready-mix. Yeah, I see on the -- 22 if we look at this one, if we held it up, and showed 23 this is not a flat bag, correct? This is something 24 else? 25 A. That's a box. Page 144 1 able to put it in --on. 2 Q. Do you know whether or not there was a 3 significant difference in the volume of sales 4 between the powdered stuff that was mixed by the I 5 contractors versus that that was already premixed 6 with the water? 7 A. This --this was our --probably one of 8 our better selling products, the Ready-mix. 9 Q. Ready-mix? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. Okay. And let's go to the next one. This 7i 12 is a called Paco Textures -- 13 A. Joint Compound -- * 14 Q. -- Quik-Set? ii 15 A. -- Quik-Set, yes. 3 16 MR. HAZEN: Number, Brent. 17 MR. COON: This is 1033. | 18 Q. (By Mr. Coon) And what are we talking i 19 about with Paco Quik-Set Joint Compound? 20 A. What's --what is the product precisely? 21 Q. Yes, sir. 72 A. The Quik-Set Joint did the same thing as 23 the other joint compounds did, the only thing is 24 this dried a lot faster. This was more like a 25 plaster-type thing, and there were three different Page 143 Page 145 1 Q. Okay. This is in a box. So we got a 2 little bit different shape to it? 3 A. Yeah. I am trying to find you a better 4 picture. 5 Q. And on the side of the box it says, 6 "Semi-liquid, do not drop, protect from freezing." 7 Did I read that correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. So what you have there is the 10 containers that would be sold by Kelly-Moore that 11 had already taken the dry powder that we've talked 12 about in these 25-pound bags and mixed it up with 13 the water so it's ready to go? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. Okay. And would it still have the same 16 purposes for use as the ones that came in the powder 17 form? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. What would be the reasons that you would 20 have some o f your contractors or customers wanting 21 it in a ready-mix form? 22 A. That's really a preference by the 23 contractor. It's a matter o f convenience in that 24 you don't have to go out and have a supply of water 25 on new construction. You just open it and you're 1 variations, speed at which it would dry. Then this I 2 primarily was not meant to go and do a house or a | 3 room with, because it dries quickly. It's a little 4 bit different type of product. This is more for a 5 smaller-type job. 6 Q. And this also came in the 25- and 50-pound 7 bags? 8 A. I know it came in 25. I'd have to go back 9 and refresh my memory if it came in anything bigger. 10 Q. And did it essentially contain the same 11 ingredients with the exception of something that was 12 more of a drying additive? 13 A. No, I believe this was compositioned a t 14 little bit differently because of its Quik-Set i 15 characteristics. a 16 Q. Okay. I 17 A. A normal contractor, with this material, 18 had a habit - stay wet for a while so they could 19 really work with it because it's done a lot of it by 20 manual. This, on the other hand, was more of a l 21 concentrated, smaller area. i 22 Q. And do you know if that one also contained 23 asbestos? 24 A. It did. 25 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 37 (Pages 142 to 145) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4b< Page 146 Page 148 I 1 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. Next we have Paco 2 Spray Texture Number 5580. 3 MR.HAZEN: 1034? 4 MR. COON: Yes, sir. 1034. 5 Q. (By Mr. Coon) How does that one differ 6 from the other ones? 7 A. This is a sand finish. 8 Q. And what is a sand finish? 9 A. I guess the only way I could explain it is 10 you put some glue on the wall and you throw sand on 11 it, and that's -- it gives you a rougher-type 12 finish. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. Coarser finish. 15 Q. It had a grittier finish -- 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. --or texture to it? Was it because they 18 put sand or something in it? 19 A. I believe - - 1 can't answer --I believe 20 so. I don't know what the composition o f this 21 particular was. 22 Q. Okay. Did that also come in 25-pound 23 powder form? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Asbestos a -- an ingredient in it? 1 out a lot easier as you trowel it on. j 2 Q. And what do we mean by less bodied? j 3 A. I don't know. I guess it's like making a 1 4 cake. You girls probably could help me. 5 You might have something that's a little bit j 6 more viscous than something else. I mean, it's | 7 primarily made the same way but it just doesn't have | 8 the body, when you -- when you have got it mixed. \ 9 It --it could be a little bit thinner somehow. And j 10 I don't know how to explain it. I'm not a technical j 11 guy. 1 12 Q. Could you get the same effect by using one j 13 o f the other compounds and diluting it with more 1 14 water, or did you lose some integrity o f the product I 15 if you did that? 16 A. I can't answer that. I don't know that. j 17 Sorry. I 18 Q. Okay. Next one we have Paco Textures, is J 19 that another box? [ 20 A. This is the Ready-mix topping. 21 Q. Okay. 22 MR. HAZEN: 1037? \ 23 A. Yes. j 24 MR. COON: This is 1037. J 25 Q. (By Mr. Coon) And what is Ready-mix i Page 147 . [ Page 149 I 1 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 1 topping? j 2 A. Yes. 2 A. It's this product here, in theory, already j 3 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. Let's go to the 3 premade. j 4 next one. This is Document 1036, Paco Textured 4 Q. Okay. The finishing compound that's 1 5 Number 5535 Finishing Compound. Also in 25-pound 5 already mixed with water? j 6 bags? 7 A. Yes. 6 A. Right. i 7 Q. Okay. j 8 Q. Also powder? 8 A. In essence, that's the difference. | 9 A. Yes. 9 Q. And next --this is part of a bag says 10 Q. Also with asbestos? 10 Paco --Paco, maybe V -100? 1 11 A. Yes. 11 A. You got two different deals there. 1 12 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 12 Q. Well, we can't read. One is the side o f a I 13 Q. (By Mr. Coon) How was it used? 13 Quik-Set. 1 14 A. This would have been - if you were using 14 A. That's Quik-Set. That's different. 1 15 this material in place o f an all purpose, this would 15 Q. We talked about it. Then there is a side 1 16 have been the last coat. This would have been the 16 o f something that says --is that a V -100 Texture? I 17 top coat that you put on, above --on top o f the 17 A. Yes. 1 18 tape. 18 Q. Was that off the -- 1 19 Q. And what would be the purpose o f going 19 A. V-100 Texture Vinyl something. 8 20 back with a finishing coat, from a contractor's 20 Q. Do we know what that was? 8 21 standpoint, with this product? 21 A. It was --it's a texture. In this case, 1 22 A. This product in itself was not as bodied 22 it's the ceiling, the V -100 is the ceiling texture. I 23 as the first coat. The first coat has to be bodied, 23 Q. Okay. Was that also in a 25-pound bag? 8 24 to fill --help fill in those voids. This was a 24 A. Yes. Oh, wait a minute. It looks lik e-- 1 25 little less body, which allowed it to be smoothed 25 th e re is a 35-pound. This looks like a 35-pound 1 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 38 (Pages 146 to 149) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea Page 150 Page 152 1 bag. All right. 2 Q. Okay. And powdered? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Mixed with water? 5 A. Yes Q. Do you know whether it contained asbestos? 7 MR.HAZEN: Object. 8 A. It did. 9 Q. (By Mr. Coon) It did? 10 A. Uh-huh. 11 Q. Okay. The next one, the Quik-Set, we have 12 talked about it, have we not? 13 A. Now, first of all, I want to clarify 14 something. 15 Q. Yes, sir. 16 A. You asked me about containing asbestos. 17 Q. Sure. We understand that -- 18 A. Since we started this conversation about 19 '60/'64,1 am telling you what these products had in 20 them at that time. 21 Q. Sure. 22 A. Okay. Ijust want to make sure. 23 Q. We do understand at some point in time 24 asbestos was reduced or removed from some of these 25 product lines. 1 application or finish? 2 Q. Akin --what would be the closest product 3 that you made to that one? 4 A. There - I don't know if there is anything 5 that is close. Texture paint would be the closest, 6 but I can't say you could compare the two. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. I mean texture, wall texture. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. Deco-Tex. 11 Q. Now, did this have a color to it? This is 12 a paint but you mix it. It's a powder, right? 13 A. It's a powder. 14 Q. And you mix it with water? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. And you put it on the sheetrock or 17 drywall? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. When you did that, would it have a 20 finished painted look to it? 21 A. No, you would have to paint over it. 22 Q. Okay. Why was it called texture paint? 23 It was a texture for paint? 24 A. I am assuming it was called texture paint 25 because you could put it on with other vehicles Page 151 Page 153 1 A. We started removing it in 1972. 2 Q. And we will talk more about that in a 3 little bit. 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. And next we have 1039. This is called 6 Paco Texture Paint Number 5563. 7 A. Right. 8 Q. 25-pound bag? 9 A. Yes. Appears to be. 10 Q. Powdered? 11 A. Appears to be. 12 Q. Contained asbestos at some point? 13 A. It would have, yes. 14 Q. And used for what, sir? 15 A. This is where you --where you want - - 1 16 don't know how to explain it. It gives you like a 17 texture, but it's more of a paint. With the 18 textures you had to spray. You could mix this with 19 water and put it on with a brush. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. And it would give you a textured type 22 effect, little bit different. 23 Q. And it would be most akin to what other 24 product? 25 A. Well, for the --akin as far as 1 other than trowels and --or machines. 2 Q. Okay. And that was because of the 3 viscosity? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Okay. Next we have got Document 1040. 6 This is called Paco Texture Vinyl Base V-100. I 7 think we saw a side of that bag -- 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. - a t 1038. 10 A. Yeah. 11 Q. Is that the same --is that the side of 12 that bag? 13 A. Appears to be, yes. 14 Q. Okay. And I think you described that 15 product for us. It says, Number 6373, Decorative 16 Ceiling Texture? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. Anything else about that you have not 19 already told us about? 20 A. Huh-uh. 21 Q. And 1043, or actually that's 1041 - 22 A. 1041. 23 Q. --appears to be the sides or bottoms of 24 some of the bags as well? 25 A. Hard to tell. NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 39 (Pages 150 to 153) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1c-00045a4b Page 154 1 Q. Okay. Now, over the years, with these 2 products --let me back up. First, we don't have 3 photographs here o f each o f the 31 product lines 4 that we have under Document 1019, do we? 5 A. You don't have -- 6 Q. Do you know whether or not Kelly-Moore has j Page 156 1 j Q. Okay. f 2 A. So, even though it had the same basic j 3 ingredients in it, it was --it was made a little { 4 bit differently to appeal to the Texas market, the J 5 Texas users, and a lot of the products had different j 6 alpha numbers on them, or letters. 7 from its archives or --or from whatever purposes, 7 Q. Okay. f | 8 copies o f the other product lines that are on 8 MR. HAZEN: Hey, Brent, can we take j 9 Document 1019, to supplement the ones we have just 9 five for a quick bathroom break? 10 discussed? 10 MR. COON: Sure. j 11 A. I have seen copies o f labels or packaging 12 in the archives, in the repository. Now, whether 13 all these are within that stack, I don't --I do not 11 MR. HAZEN: We've been going about 12 an hour or so. 1j 13 MR. COON: That's good. j 14 know that, sir. But a lot o f what is on here is 14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the 15 what you have got there. 16 Q. Yeah. I think we have got 10 or 15 of - 15 record at 2 :1 1 . 16 (A recess was taken.) ~ jf 17 looks like we have looked at photographs o f about j 18 half o f those products that are on the list. j 19 Ballpark. 17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the 18 record, the time is 2:25. 19 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. Mr. Giffins, we 20 A. Yeah, because you keep in mind some of 2 0 just took another break and now that we're back on, 1 21 these are all the same, only they're like the 2 2 Quik-Set, you have three different products. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. You have a fast, medium, and slow dry, so 25 that --but that bag would be the same for that one, 21 we were last going through the product lines, and in 2 2 looking at the bags, a number of them have a Jj 23 caution. I believe we can go back --look at this j 1 24 one by example. It says, "Caution, contains" -- ! 25 A. Right. Page 155 Page 157 I 1 except that it would identify on the bag if it was 1 Q. --"asbestos fibers, avoid breathing \ j 2 fast, medium or slow. 2 dust." | 3 Q. Well, for instance, I don't recall seeing 3 A. "Avoid creating dust." 4 one that said "Radiant Heat Fill." 5 A. No. 6 Q. Do you know what that was? 4 Q. Okay. "Avoid creating dust. Breathing 5 asbestos dust may cause serious bodily harm." j1 6 Is that a label or warning notice that you have 7 A. I have no idea. 7 seen on other bags of the Paco textured product I 8 Q. I did not recall one that said "Triple 8 lines? 1 9 Duty, Bestex D." Do you know what that was? 10 A. I think at one time Triple Duty, Bestex D 11 was the predecessor to the All Purpose, but I don't 12 want to swear to it. 13 Q. What about Bestex A? 14 A. You want to get real confused? 15 Q. Not really, but I am probably going to get 16 there. 17 A. Bestex product could have been made as 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Now, it's fair to say that that did not go I 11 on to any o f the bags that contained asbestos prior 1 I 12 to 1972, correct? I 13 A. That is correct. I 14 Q. Okay. So, you are not aware o f any o f the 1 15 Kelly-Moore product lines that contained asbestos 1 16 having any type o f additional labeling on it, such 1 17 as what we just read, on any o f the products before 18 Bestex, say for ceiling texture, but there were 18 1972? 19 different formulas because some areas you had to 2 0 make a formula where it dried differently. The 21 formula for Texas is entirely -- was basically 19 A. I had not seen anything with a warning on 2 0 it prior to the items that were produced in '72. 11 21 Q. Okay. Now, in looking at these | 2 2 different in a way, not basically, but there was a 2 2 photographs o f the products, since they have this 23 difference in the formula than the Bestex would have 23 label on the bottom, looks like it's mostly on the 24 been in California, because o f our humidity and heat 24 bottom back o f each of the bags, doesn't it? 25 here from a drying point. 25 A. I believe it appears to be at the bottom NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 40 (Pages 154 to 157) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea;  1 of the bag, yes. In the back. 2 Q . And it's on the backside of the bag -- 3 A . Yes. Page 158 Page 160 ; \ 1 we just identified on any of the bags, before 1972? 2 A. Again, I - I can't answer that because I 3 haven't seen any of the bags prior. What I have 5 4 Q. --below the instructions, and 4 seen is what we - what we have right here, sir. 5 ingredients -- 6i A. Conect. 5 Q. Okay. And it's fine. Mr. Giffins, I j 6 guess just when you're telling me you haven't seen f 7 Q. --and all that other stuff? So it's fair 7 any bags like that, it leaves me with the impression : 8 to say that when we're looking at these photos, for 8 that you may still believe that for some reason 9 it to have those labels on them dealing with 9 there were labels like that on the bags, and so, J 10 asbestos, we know that these pictures were taken in 10 maybe it's just a misunderstanding. Ijust want to 11 '72 or sometime thereafter, certainly not before 11 be clear with you. Do you have any reason to ; 12 72? 12 believe here today that there were any types of ] 13 A. I think it's a fair assumption, yes, sir. 13 labelings like what we have just looked at on these \ 14 Q. But, you don't know what year they were 14 bags, on any of the products before 1972? 1 15 taken? 15 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 16 A. I have no idea, sir. 16 A. Again, I don't know what was on those bags ; 17 Q. Okay. Now, if we were to look at these 17 prior to 72. jj 18 same bags from, like, 1965, or 1970, for those 18 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. | 19 products that still bad asbestos in them, and we 19 A. I know what was put on in 72, but I don't t 20 will talk more about that later, but for those 20 know what was on there prior, sir. \ 21 products that still had asbestos in them, would any 21 Q. Okay. But as a corporate representative j 22 of them had any kind of labeling to identify that 22 for Kelly-Moore, has --have other management ? 23 asbestos was in the bags? 23 people, or people in the marketing or labeling or [i 24 MR. HAZEN: Brent, I'm sorry, what 24 bagging, or anyone, told you that they had warnings 25 v/as your time frame again? Ijust missed it on that 25 like this on any of the bags before 72? \ \ Page 159 Page 161 i 1 one. 2 Q. (By Mr. Coon) At any time prior to 72 3 for any of the products that had asbestos. 4 A. As I - 5 Q. Would there have been any labeling, to 6 your knowledge, that would have identified the bag 7 as containing asbestos? 8 A. No, as I said a little bit earlier, I am 9 not aware that there was anything on the bags prior 10 to 72, nor have I seen anything - 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. --that would indicate that. 13 Q. And it's a two-fold question. One is, 14 you're not aware of the bags identifying asbestos as 15 one of the ingredients prior to 72? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. And in addition to that, you're also not 18 aware of any of the bags having any kind of warnings 19 or cautions about the fact that asbestos was in the 20 bag? 21 A. It's - that's correct. 22 Q. Okay. Now, with respect to - 23 A. I have not seen any o f that. 24 Q. Okay. Do you have reason to believe that 25 there were any types of labeling of the nature that j 1 A. This particular warning was not put on the * 2 bags until 72. ; 3 Q. Okay. And - { 4 A. That particular warning. j 5 Q. Okay. Now, and again you're saying that 1 6 particular warning, was there any other kind of I 7 warning on any of the bags before 1972? j 8 A. As I have indicated, 1 don't know, sir. | 9 Q. You're not aware of any? | 10 A. I am not personally aware of any. No. i 11 Q. Do you have an understanding or reason to 1 12 believe for some reason that there were such f 13 warnings? j 14 A. I can't speculate. I really can't, sir -- ? 15 Q. Okay. | 16 A. --to be frank with you. i 17 Q. You don't have any reason to believe that 18 there were. Nobody at the plants told you that - 19 there were or anything like that? 20 A. Nobody said there were, nobody said there j 21 weren't. ] 22 Q. Okay. All right. Next, we have one other } 23 that was in the series of photographs. This one, f 24 c o u n s e l, is 1027. It says, "Monospray,"and that : 25 was in with the middle of these photos. Do you have NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 41 (Pages 158 to 161 36766920-761c-11d6-8c1c-00045a4 Page 162 Page 164 j 1 any reason to know why that was with those? 1 Q. --rebranded yours? j 2 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 2 A. They were rebranding with other people, i 3 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Because it has a - you can 3 too, I believe, but they -- j 4 barely read it here, but it says Baldwin, Ehret, 4 Q. Do you know if they made any product lines j 5 Hill. Have you heard of that company? 5 o f their own as well as rebrands? 6 A. No, I sure haven't. I am not familiar 6 A. I believe they did, but not to the I 7 with that at all. 7 extensive offering that maybe suppliers such as us I 8 Q. Do you know whether or not Kelly-Moore had 8 had to offer. 1 9 any relationships with Baldwin, Ehret, Hill? 9 Q. You believe you-all were the largest j 10 A. I don't even know who they are. 10 supplier of the rebranded market for GP under those 1 11 Q. The product line that was in the photo 11 years? J 12 called Monospray, have you ever heard of Monospray? 12 A. No way. No way. j 13 A. Have not. 13 Q. You think there were other people that | 14 Q. Don't have any reason to know why this 14 rebranded more for them from '68 to '71? | 15 would be part of the records in the repository? 15 A. I don't know that for a fact but my j 16 A. I do not. 16 assumption was they were -- what I understand, they j 17 Q. Okay. 17 were rebranding geographically. I 18 A. First time I have seen that, sir. 18 Q. Okay. Do you know who else they were -- 1 19 Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not the 19 do you know who else GP bought product for to I 20 Monospray would have been something that would have 20 rebrand? | 21 competed with the Sprayline products that you guys 21 A. I do not. j 22 had? 22 Q. Okay. And as I recall, GP was the only I 23 A. I have no idea. 23 one you recall rebranding for? \ 24 Q. Okay. Do you know who any competitors 24 A. That's the one I'm aware of. % 25 were of you-alls Sprayline product lines? 25 Q. We also mentioned the -- the plant in 1 j Page 163 Page 165 j 1 A. When you're talking about Sprayline, 2 you're talking about the equipment that put it on? 3 Q. Yes, sir. 4 A. Oh, I know there was --there is other -- 5 I am - - 1 understand there were other people out 6 there who made similar equipment. For me to give 7 you their names, I wouldn't know off the top o f my 8 head. 9 Q. Do you know any competitors o f Kelly-Moore 10 that made any o f the products like the ones we just 11 went through on documents 1027 through 1040? 12 A. Oh, there are numerous. I say numerous. 13 Had Hamilton -- 14 Q. Let's go back to the '60s/'70s time frame. 15 Do you know any o f the competitors regionally or 16 nationally at that time for the joint compounds and 17 textures? 18 A. I do not know them. I know o f them. 19 Q. Okay. And who would those have been? 20 A. Hamilton was a big player. Oh, man, I'm 21 drawing a blank now. I am trying to think o f the 22 company that bought Westco. 23 Q. I take it Georgia Pacific made some since 24 they -- 25 A. Yes. 1 Houston where you made the vermiculite, or cleaned 2 it up? 3 A. Trilite. I 4 Q. Trilite. The Trilite plant. The 5 vermiculite that was then used for your joint 6 compounds and textures, you told us about. Do you 7 have any recollection o f who any o f the other 8 purchasers o f your -- o f your vermiculite would 9 have been? 10 A. No, and I think I mentioned --I think I 11 mentioned that earlier. I had no idea who that 1 12 would have been. 1 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. And maybe it was an assumption on my part. 1 15 I know that that material was supplied to Paco. I [ 16 had not seen any documentation that --that 17 specifically said it was also sold to duh, duh, duh, 18 duh. But in the normal business, I think it -- it 19 could have happened, but, again, I'm only aware 20 specifically of it going from Trilite to Paco. 21 Q. Do you know whether or not Trilite would 22 have distributed the vermiculite to other companies 23 that were making the similar product lines that 24 Kelly-Moore was using it for; that is, joint 25 compounds and textures, or were they supplying it to NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 42 (Pages 162 to 165) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea Page 166 $ Page 168 ; 1 markets that were totally unrelated to yourjoint 1 Q. Okay. And was this something they did ] 2 compounds and textures? 2 what, weekly? Monthly? Quarterly? ) 3 A. I don't - 3 A. 1 don't -- it depends on the situation. | 4 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 4 Some stores today order three times a week. Other 1 5 A. I don't know that, sir. 5 stores only order once a week. Itjust depends on | 6 i Q. (By Mr. Coon) You just really don't have 6 the sales volume. j 7 any clue who the other purchasers of the product 7 Q. Could the stores get that type of 8 were? 8 supplies or resupplying by making phone calls, or ; 9 A. Do not. 9 was there a written procedure or protocol that 1 10 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 10 needed to be followed all the time? j 11 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Nor what their uses were? 11 A. The only --the only way I could explain f 12 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 12 it to you is what I am familiar with since I have I 13 A. It would be speculation. 13 been with the company in 1985, and I think what the < 14 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. Now, Mr. Giffins, we 14 -- the way we --the way it's done today, is the way f 15 next have Document 1086. This is a few years later. 15 it's done for a long time; and that is, when the : 16 This is November o f '77, are the handwritten notes 16 stores place an order, they have to provide 17 here, and it's typed also, November 2, '77 here. 17 documentation. * 18 This is a Paco invoice, and it lists a long number 18 Q. Do you know - { 19 o f product lines, also has Kelly-Moore Paint Company 19 A. They -- j 20 stencilled on the left margin. Do you know what 20 Q. I'm sorry. i 21 would have generated that document? 21 A. They have to provide something that says, | 22 A. First of all, do you want the Bates 22 this is what I want. ) 23 number? 23 Q. Do you know if Kelly-Moore made an effort j 24 MR. HAZEN: Please. 24 at the headquarters of tracking how much each store * 25 A. It's KM BB 4836. 25 was requesting of different products to know what ; j Page 167 1 MR. HAZEN: Thank you. 2 A. This is an order form. 3 Q. (By Mr. Coon) And how would these order 4 forms work? 5 A. This would have been a store order form. 6 If you go back to that brochure earlier where it 7 said branch, sales branch - 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. --this identified here as branch, it 10 would have been a store, and it would have been a 11 Store Number 6135, or whatever it is, and this was 12 how they would have ordered their products. . Page 169 j % 1 they were selling and what they were not selling, 1 2 and the overall volume of business? , 3 A. I have seen records that indicate that we | 4 know what was shipped out of the warehouse. 1 5 Q. To each store? j 6 A. No. In -- in total, in a given time, in a j| 7 given month. So much of this went out, so much of 1 8 that. But the - to the - to the location, up { 9 until recently, that type of information was not \ 10 readily available. | 11 Q. So, for instance, in Houston, if you had 1 12 -- how many stores did you have in Houston, back in 13 Q. Okay. When a contractor came in, would 14 they fill out a form like this with one of the sales 15 reps in the store, or is this from the store to the 16 --your factory? 17 A. Now, this - this is the -- this is - 18 appears to be the order form that the store would 19 have placed with the factory. 20 Q. Okay. So, if you look at - if the store 21 was low on supplies, of certain product lines, they 13 the '70s? \ 14 A. What part? Early? j 15 Q. Just -- sure. Early. ] 16 A. Two or three. * 17 Q. Okay. So, if you had three stores in 18 Houston, each of them may be doing different volumes | 19 of business, and may be doing more business in one , 20 area than another for whatever reasons, correct? 1 21 A. Conceivably. | 22 would fill out a requisition form, send it back to 23 Kelly-Moore's manufacturing facilities and say ship 24 us more o f this stuff? 25 A. Yes. 22 Q. Would Kelly-Moore have any way o f tracking ] 23 the information to determining --to tiy to \ 24 determine that Store Number 1 is selling, say, 100 < 25 bags ofjoint --dry joint compound a month, but ; NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 43 (Pages 166 to 169) 36766920-761 c -11d6-8c1 c-00045a41 Page 170 \ Page 172 ) 1 Store Number 2 is only selling two bags, and try to 2 determine why it is that one store is selling so 3 much more o f a particular product than another? 4 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 5 A. Well, it's two questions. One, being back 6 in the early 70s, around that time, everything was 7 all manual, so if a --you wanted to know what a 8 store was selling, you'd have to go through the 9 invoices and keep track, and go back and sort 10 something out. 11 The second part o f your question, I think, was 12 applying to the geographic area. A lot o f that had 13 to do with customer preference, and you could have 14 different customer preferences within the same city, 15 just geographically. So -- 16 Q. (By Mr. Coon) The bags that we looked at 17 here, would they pretty much look like that through 18 the years, or were there a lot o f changes to them 19 for some reason or another? 20 A. The ones that I've seen, basically, the 21 primary design was pretty consistent. There may 22 have been some color changes, or something, or maybe 23 a print size change or whatever, but --_ 24 Q. Could anyone else order any o f these 25 products other than the local store? 1 been able to sell to non Kelly-Moore stores in the j 2 geographic area that was allowed. Anytime you had a j 3 Kelly-Moore store within a certain geographic area, j 4 it was all through a Kelly-Moore paint store. j 5 Q. Okay. They kind of had a --a zone around 1 6 each of them that you couldn't sell to the --the j 7 public without going through the retail store? 8 A. It wasn't the intention o f the company to 1 9 sell other than through its own stores to begin l 10 with. I 11 Q. Do you know what their typical radius was? 1 12 A. I can't answer that. f 13 Q. 20 miles, or 50 miles or -- 1 14 A. I can't answer that. The only thing I can I 15 tell you would be my speculation. I 16 Q. How would -- you said Mr. Freeman. 17 Mr. Freeman was one o f the sales reps? 18 A. Mr. Freeman was the gentleman who opened 19 the plant in Tulsa in 1969, and then subsequently 20 moved the plant to Broken Arrow in 1975, and then 21 subsequently bought the business in 1978. 1 22 Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not there I 23 were any field salesmen in any of the geographic | 24 areas that went out to either commercial prospects, I 25 business prospects, whether it was a company that | Page 171 Page 173 j 1 A. You mean outside o f the company? 2 Q. Yes, sir. 3 A. Outside o f the store employee? 4 Q. Yes, sir. 5 A. No. 6 Q. Was that tightly regulated? 7 A. Well, if it's anything like it is today, 8 yes. 9 Q. Okay. Do you know how it was in the '60s 10 or 70s? 11 A. As I say, we pretty well operate today the 12 way we did then as far as processing o f the orders, 13 and there's -- it's pretty definite on how these 14 things are placed. 15 Q. Okay. And to your knowledge, there were 16 no distributors that would have allowed these 17 product lines to have gone out to the open market 18 without going through a Kelly-Moore local retail 19 store? 20 A. As I indicated earlier, the company's 21 objective from day one was to market through its own 22 stores, and to sell its own products through its own 23 stores. Paco was sold through the Kelly-Moore 24 stores. 25 At one point, like Mr. Freeman, he may have 1 did a lot of drywall work, whether or not it would 2 have been another mom-and-pop store out in the 3 woods, that was not competitive to the local 4 Kelly-Moore store, any other places where they could 5 try to sell the product and improve their market 6 share? 7 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 8 A. The -- the salesmen from whom? 9 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Kelly-Moore. 10 A. From a Kelly-Moore store? 11 Q. From a Kelly-Moore store, or from the 1 12 Kelly-Moore corporation. 1 13 A. Okay. The way -- the way it functions is j 14 you've got Store A. Out o f Store A, you could have 1 15 one sales rep, or you could have more than one I 16 depending on the sales volume o f that store. That I 17 sales rep basically -- all --went out and called on I 18 painting contractors. He could call on the owner of I 19 this building, to try to get that person to utilize I 20 the paint product, or any o f our products in that 1 21 building. He got compensated on commission based on 1 22 what he sold to the painting contractor, or actually 1 23 what he sold. I 24 The company's directive was not to sell people 1 25 other than those that were serviced through the 1 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 44 (Pages 170 to 173) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1c-00045a4bdea7 Page 174 Page 176 1 Kelly-Moore paint stores. 1 He puts it on these buildings, you know, or will put j 2 So, the normal sales organization was not 2 it on a house. i 3 structured and not encouraged in any way to go out 3 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Would typically go to a i 4 and look for a mom and pop, or dealer store, to sell 4 Kelly-Moore store and have his preferred customer t 5 the product through. It would be very difficult - 5 buying arrangement with them and go from there? f well, you have to understand our --our commission 6 A. No, the painting contractor would go to -, 7 schedule. And it would not have benefitted the rep 7 the store and buy it from the store. ] 8 to do that anyway, because of the way our commission 8 Q. Right. And you get --I think you said j 9 schedule is structured. 9 they typically got a scheduled discount for being a ) 10 I don't know if that answers your question or 10 contractor? | 11 not. 11 A. Based on their volume, correct. j 12 Q. That would mean he wouldn't get a - a 12 Q. Right. j 13 sale, if he had a seller --wholesale to somebody 13 A. There were different - different price j 14 else, he wouldn't get a commission? 14 schedules. Okay? j 15 A. For him -- 15 Q. Okay. Now you're talking about your 16 MR. HAZEN: Objection. 16 mom-and-pop painting contractor, or drywall | 17 A. --to sell it to a mom and pop, for 17 contractor? | 18 somebody that's going to resell it, for him to make 18 A. Now, I want to clarify the industrial s 19 a reasonable income on that sale, he'd have to sell 19 thing. | 20 it to them at a price that would make it almost 20 Q. Okay. j 21 impossible for them to competitively resell it. 21 A. I just want to make sure we're on the same ! 22 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. What about the 22 wavelength. j,; 23 industrial suppliers? You were telling us there are 23 Q. Sure. ; 24 contacts with them. Could they go in, meet a 24 A. Okay. You got the regular painting 25 commercial user, industrial/commerciai heavy user, 25 contractor who paints houses and he has one or two j Page 175 5 Page 177 j 1 target customer and direct sell to them, and not go 2 through the local store? 3 A. I want to make sure I understand what 4 you're talking about on industrial because my 5 terminology o f industrial and maybe yours are 6 different. 7 Q. Weil, I agree industrial and commercial 8 may have different connotation. 9 ' A. Yes. 10 Q. But for either one o f them. For instance, 11 say you have a construction company that does tons 12 of drywall work with their subcontractors, and they 13 may have an economic motivation to buy product 14 wholesale for either themselves or for their 15 subcontractors. Could Kelly-Moore go to them, as a 16 prospect, and sell directly to them in bulk and have 17 it even shipped to them in bulk? 18 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 19 A. As you explain it, that scenario could 20 happen, but we need - we need to make sure -- at 21 least from my clarification, to make sure I am not 22 giving you the - bad information here. 23 There are basically three types of customers. 24 You have what we call the painting contractor. He's 25 the basic guy who buys the architectural product. 1 guys that they work out of a car or out of a truck 2 and they do painting. 3 Then you'll have what's called commercial. 4 These guys will have a large crew. They're : 5 primarily into doing shopping centers. They're into j 6 doing high-rises such as this. They're a different l 7 type customer than the regular painting contractor. | 8 Q. Sure. | 9 A. Then the industrial is the customer who -- ; 10 who has a construction site, or runs machinery, or \ 11 that type o f deal. We don't deal with them as j 12 industrials. We deal with the commercial and the ? 13 painting contractor. j 14 Q. With respect to the commercials, for those 15 that did large volume, like I say, maybe they build i 16 shopping centers where there is a huge volume of 17 drywall or sheetrock, and a huge need for the joint 18 compounds and floats and textures, would Kelly-Moore 19 ever service them directly instead of going through 20 the local stores? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Would they ever service them by going 23 through the local store in terms o f giving them 24 credits but making shipments directly to job sites? 25 A. Now, that may be, b e c a u se I was going to NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 45 (Pages 174 to 17 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1c-00045; Page 178 Page 180 j 1 come back and correct this. All sales go through 2 the store. The store is the base for the sales 3 transaction because, again, that sales rep who works 4 out of Store A, he gets compensated by the sales 5 that go through that store. 6 If the factory were to by chance - let's say 7 that sales rep had a big order, and it was five 8 pallets of paint, just in theory, and it was a - at 9 ajob site that was close to the factory. He could 10 arrange for the factory to deliver those five 11 pallets o f paint to the job site, but all that 12 billing goes through the store and the dealing with 13 the customers through the store. 14 Q. Okay. All right. Now, I want to 15 understand this type o f invoice. Would this be a 16 comprehensive invoice, or does this just deal with 17 the -- looks like this sheet just deals with the 18 Paco lines. 19 A. I believe so. Yes. 20 Q. And then there is a Page 2, which is BB 21 4837. What is that one? 22 A. It's Paco. It's listing some o f the other 23 products like the asbestos-free wall texture. 24 Q. Why would - I'm sorry, why would this 25 form be different than this one? 1 were your in-store items; and then you had what I \ 2 understood to be sundries, being the other things 1 3 you bought from other vendors like paint brushes - j 4 A. Uh-huh. I 5 Q. --rollers and stuff like that. But when j 6 I look at this list I see, like, Paco Quik-Set Fast, j 7 Paco Quik-Set Slow, and it lists the volume and the f 8 25-pound bags. These are on the sundries list, but I 9 I understood these to be things that were not 10 sundries because they were internal products. I 11 A. Okay. It's a good point. Going back, I 12 everything in the store that was sold through a [ 13 store, would have a preprinted sheet like this. So, \ 14 you would have a preprinted sheet for the paint. j 15 You would have a preprinted sheet for the Paco. You j 16 would have a preprinted sheet for all the sundries, 1 17 the brushes, rollers, sandpaper, and all that. j 18 The store would take this, and this is --make J 19 an order off of these sheets. j 20 Q. Okay. j 21 A. By terminology, Kelly-Moore today, in 1 22 thinking o f terms o f today, everything we make is I 23 our own manufacture. Anything that we don't make is j 24 sundries. I have no idea o f what the date o f this 1 25 is here, but this is showing on the sundry form, and j Page 179 Page 181 1 1 A. Well, I think it's the same. It's just 2 that we don't have a copy o f everything. So 3 somebody got shortchanged. 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. That's what it looks like. Got 6 shortchanged. Yes, somebody covered -- this has 7 been covered here. Just somebody wrote on that, to 8 give you that breakdown. 9 Q. Okay. Similar --is this a later form, 10 later dated form, one used at a different time? 11 A. This says Arvada, which was our store in 12 Colorado, this says sundries, so this was a sundry 13 order form. We don't --we didn't --this was 14 considered a sundry. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. Let me see if any o f these items are on 17 this page. 18 Q. That's why I am wondering. If you look 19 here on the sundries, this is part of the sundries 20 here, this is all preform, right? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. And I had understood your testimony 23 earlier to be that you had your Kelly-Moore product 24 lines, which would have been your Kelly-Moore 25 paints, your Paco stuff, things that you guys owned, 1 it could have, because it's not a paint item, but f 2 generally sundries would be stuff that we did not j 3 manufacture. So that's a little confusing. I 4 Q. Okay. So, to clarify, would the Paco j 5 products normally be something that should be put on I 6 the sundries line, or should they have normally gone 7 on this other kind o f form? 8 A. They were probably classified as a sundry 9 because it was only a small part of the business, 10 very small part of the business we didn't - - 1 mean, 11 we were primarily a paint house. 12 Q. Okay. | 13 A. Paco was just a small entity. 1 14 Q. The other line o f questions that I had for I 15 you earlier that you didn't have a lot of 1 16 information on, Mr. Giffins, concerned the actual | 17 information that you may have regarding the I 18 production and sale of drywall materials. Remember I 19 I asked you something about that before, if you knew 1 20 actually anything about the volume o f business, or 21 the total amount o f product that was sold. And I 22 found what's --this is KMX 2085, it's our Document j 23 1099. 1 24 MR. COON: And, counsel, that's 2085 1 25 sequential through 2102. 1 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 46 (Pages 178 to 181) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 182 Page 184 1 MR.HAZEN: Thank you. 1 A. About six percent of the total tonnage was ' 2 Q. (By Mr. Coon) But if you look at that, it 2 in asbestos, yes. 3 appears to be some in-house documents at Kelly-Moore 3 Q. All right. ( 4 that identify various locations, and over the 4 A. That's about consistent. J 5 different calendar years, the total volume of 5 Q. I was going to ask you that. If you look 6) different types of product sales. 6 at 585 being close to 600 and 9927 being close to 7 Have you seen that document before, sir? 7 10,000, we're looking at about 6 percent by weight 8 A. I don't think I have seen this page. I 8 being the asbestos, to the total production? i 9 don't think 1have seen this before. I really don't 9 A. Correct. i 10 recall. It - if it came out of the repository, I 10 Q. And it's --we haven't discussed this, but 11 probably have seen it, but I really don't recall it. 11 generally the Paco product lines that contained i 12 Q. Okay. As I understand reading this, what 12 asbestos were typically between five and eight or ; 13 we would do is we would look at --for instance, 13 nine percent asbestos, were they not? ; 14 this is the Richmond, California facility? Was that 14 MR. HAZEN: Objection, objection, 15 the Paco facility? 15 form. * 16 A. Yes. 16 A. No. It was around six percent is the f 17 Q. Okay. And if we look at the 60 through 64 17 number that I recall. 1 18 here, they don't have much information here in the 18 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Pretty consistent six with ; 19 early years with respect to the production numbers, 19 all of them? i 20 correct, just sales volume? 20 A. If you look at averaging it out, the | 21 A. It appears that way. 21 average is around 6 percent. 1 22 Q. Okay. Then if we go to the next page we 22 Q. Okay. \ 23 have San Carlos, California, and picks up that next 23 A. In the beginning. | 24 year '64, and would this be as a result of the 24 Q. Okay. And we will talk about that. 1 25 facility moving from Richmond to San Carlos? 25 A. Again, I want to go back to that '60/'64 Page 183 . i s P a g e 1 8 5 j 1 A. It would be my assumption that it was, 2 yes. 3 Q. Yeah. I think even here comments. I 4 think it says facility was moved from Richmond, so I 5 think that explains it. And it starts giving us 6 better numbers with respect to the volume of 7 employees and things like that, correct? But we 8 still have information on the total number of 9 purchase of pounds of product until '67, right? 10 A. Appears so. 11 Q. If we look at the --at the fourth column 12 in '67, we now are getting information not only on 13 the amount o f sales and the number of employees, 14 number of people in production, but as we get close 15 to the bottom, we actually have a total production 16 in tons of the product, as well as total amount of 17 asbestos purchases in tons for the product, correct? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. So if we look at '67, for the San Carlos, 20 California facility for the Paco product, we can see 21 that there was 9927 tons of product made, according 22 to this. Is that correct? 23 A. Appears to be correct. 24 Q. And o f that, there would have been 585 25 tons of asbestos purchased for that product line? 1 time frame in the early days, because that's when ( 2 those numbers occurred. But in 1972 -- | 3 Q. Right. 1 4 A. - - we started to change the products, and j 5 that changed that whole balance dramatically. i 6 Q. Sure. And we will talk about that. So if f 7 we look at '68, we have 11,500 tons, and a ton is ] 8 2,000 pounds, right? 9 A. Uh-huh. j 10 Q. So, if we multiplied this number by 2,000 j 11 it will tell us the total amount of pounds bought? J 12 A. Correct. j 13 Q. And, again, in '68 for the purchase of t. 14 asbestos, there was 844 tons of asbestos bought for | 15 that facility that year? i 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. And, again, it looks like that's still j 18 running about six percent? j 19 A. It's a little bit over six, but yeah. ! 20 Q. Six or seven percent? j 21 A. Right. j 22 Q. And we go to '69 through '73, and again, j 23 we can look at the numbers. We have 11,000 tons, ? 24 and 844 tons of asbestos for '69, correct? 25 A. Correct. | ] iWii.iwrw 47 (Pages 182 to 185) NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 36766920-761c-11d6-8c1c-00045a4b< Page 186 Page 188 j 1 Q. 12,000 tons o f product, using 654 tons of 2 asbestos in '70? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. That's actually maybe just under six 5 percent total weight, would it not be? 6 A. Yes. Appears to be. 7 Q. And 71 we have 14,000 plus tons of 8 product, and 953 tons o f asbestos, correct? 9 A. There was a little bit o f a tip there. 10 Q. Right. 11 A. It was an increase. 12 Q. And so in that year, the percentage of 13 asbestos in the products actually went up to 14 probably closer to 7 or 8 percent, it appears, 15 correct? 16 A. Yes. According to those numbers, yes. 17 Q. Okay. And then in 72, you have 11,000 18 tons of product made, and, again, when we're talking 19 product, this is all the Paco products, correct? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. We had 11,000 tons o f Paco made at the San 22 Carlos facility with 534 tons of asbestos, so we're 23 down to about five percent again, correct? 24 A. Uh-huh. 25 Q. And then in 7 3 we have almost 9,000 tons 1 others had no asbestos, the total amount of asbestos j 2 you bought would go down? j 3 A. Should be going down. Plus some o f the j 4 other products had -- were reformulated to contain I 5 less asbestos. 6 Q. So, as we look through the 70s, we see f 7 two different dynamics: One is some of your | 8 products don't have asbestos in them, so the total | [ 9 amount of asbestos you buy would go down from that, I 10 correct? 1 11 A. Correct. { 12 Q. And you also reduced the amount o f j 13 asbestos in some o f our your other products, which 14 would be another reason the number would go down | 15 some? | 16 A. That's correct. j ! 17 Q. And if we look through 7 4 through 77, 1 18 again, we have about 9,000 tons o f product in 74, 19 with 245 tons o f asbestos, correct? j 1 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 Q. Next year 7700 tons to 235 tons of 22 asbestos, correct? 1 1 23 A. Correct. I 24 Q. And then 7 6, 55, almost 5600 tons of | 25 product, with 130 tons of asbestos. And then in Page 187 |1 Page 189 1 o f product, with 442 tons of asbestos being used for 2 the product? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. Again, right about five percent? 5 A. Five percent. But the -- obviously the 6 amount o f tonnage o f asbestos is declining in 7 relationship to the amount of tonnage of production. 8 Q. Okay. It actually -- yeah, it actually 9 looked like it was about six percent for several 10 times and around 71 it actually went up and then 11 7 2 ,7 3 went down again a little bit? 12 A. Yeah. That's because in 72, wait a 13 minute. Or 7 3 , 1 believe is when we came out with 14 an all asbestos-free product -- 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. --which was one of our better selling 17 products. 18 Q. But you had some products starting in the 19 early 70s that did not have asbestos in them, so 20 therefore, the total amount of asbestos purchases in 21 --in any given year would not have been that same 22 six or seven percent as it had been? 23 A. That's logical, yeah. 24 Q. Some o f the products would have still had 25 the same amount o f asbestos in them, but sin ce some 1 77, we have about 5450 tons o f product made, with s j 2 about 181 tons of asbestos? j 3 A. And then at this rate we're talking about 4 two-and-a-half percent. | 5 Q. Right. | j 6 A. So | 7 Q. So two-and-a-half percent of the total 8 weight o f your products made at that facility by 1 1 9 1976 and 77 were asbestos? I 10 A. Correct. 1 11 Q. And that was because - 1 12 A. Roughly if you're going by these numbers. 13 Q. Because some products had no asbestos in I I 14 it and some still had four or five percent? I 15 A. (Indicating.) 1 16 Q. And then in 1978, we don't have numbers I 17 off o f this. Do you know why? j 18 A. Because we stopped making asbestos, I 19 products with asbestos. j 20 Q. At the San Carlos, California facility? 21 A. In 1977. 22 Q. Okay. So the last you made j 23 asbestos-containing products under the Paco name at 24 the San Carlos facility was in 77? | 25 A. Throughout the company. NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713)861-0203 48 (Pages 186 to 189) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 ` Page 190 Page 192 ; 1 Q. Okay. Well, we will also ask you about 2 the other facilities. 3 Over these years --let's back up real quick. 4 For '60 through '66, where we do not have numbers of 5 total volume or the number of tons of asbestos 6 bought, do you have any reason to believe that the 7 ratio o f asbestos to total tonnage would have been 8 much different than it was in the late '60s? 9 A. It would be speculation on my part. I - 10 I really don't know. I had - I don't know what - 11 you know, I can't tell you what was, sir. 12 Q. Okay. You don't have any reason today to 13 believe that there was significantly less or 14 significantly greater percentage of asbestos of the 15 product in the early years from '60 to '66 as there 16 was from '67 to the early '70s, do you? 17 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 18 A. I really don't know, honestly. 19 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. 20 A. I really don't know. 21 Q. Okay. Well, Mr. Griffins -- 22 A. At that time asbestos was used in all 23 drywall products -- 24 Q. Right. 25 A. --not just with ours, so I have no idea 1 didn't have the information. 2 Q. Okay. But in all fairness sitting here 3 today, we know that for those first six years, even ' 4 though there is no numbers here, we know that they 5 bought asbestos in a five or six percent ratio to 6 the total amount of their tonnage of product? 7 A. Only --I am not going --I can't comment 5 8 on the percentage, on the balance, sir. I really \ 9 can't. I don't know. : 10 Asbestos was the prime product used in all h 11 drywall products at that time, so there had to be ( 12 some purchasing of it would be my assumption. f 13 Although it doesn't indicate it here, I don't doubt ) 14 that they didn't have the records up. As far as j 15 percentage, I cannot speculate on that. I cannot. | 16 Q. Okay. But, we know that we had sales, and I 17 we know where we had product made, we just don't j 18 know from a lack of records how many tons of product j 19 were made, nor how many tons of asbestos was bought t 20 to make the product? ; 21 A. That's apparent on this, yes. 22 Q. Okay. But we --I thought we did have an 23 understanding that the products through those early 24 years contained five to six percent asbestos by 25 weight? ; Page 19! 1 i Page 193 j 1 of the composition in the earlier years, sir. 1 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 2 Q. Okay. But, you do agree that the products 2 A. I know what it contained basically from 3 that were made at Paco from '60 to '66 had asbestos 3 about the --the '70s, and the late '60s, based on i 4 in them? 4 some of the information we have. What happened i 5 A. From '60 to '66 had asbestos at an average 5 here, when you get into the early '60s, well, this ] 6 - a weighted average of about five percent of the 6 was when we bought the Paco thing, as you can see ( 7 total material, total package was about five 7 they obviously didn't keep very good records, but | 8 percent. 8 the point is, I have no idea what was involved in > 9 Q. Sure. So even though we don't see 9 it, sir. 1 10 asbestos being bought from '60 to '66, is just 10 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. ] 11 because they have NA, which they did not have 11 A. No idea. f 12 available information? 12 Q. Well, and I guess here is what I am trying ! 13 A. Somebody didn't have the records for 13 to find out, Mr. Giffins, is as the corporate ] 14 whatever reason. 14 representative today, 1 am here to try to find out ? 15 Q. Right. Didn't mean they didn't buy 15 what we can about the product lines that had ; 16 asbestos, just meant they didn't have any 16 asbestos, and how much asbestos was in them. I j 17 information available in the early years to go back 17 guess the dilemma I have is that we know that the -- ' 18 and determine how much asbestos they actually bought 18 the main lines that Kelly-Moore made that had : 19 for the Paco lines in the first six years? 19 asbestos in them were the Paco product lines, : 20 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 20 correct? 1 21 Q. (By Mr. Coon) And that's what it 21 A. They were the only ones. { 22 indicates, right? 22 Q. And we know that that happened from 1960 1 23 A. W ell- 23 when they bought the Paco facility all the way - 24 Q. Where it says not available? 24 through the later '70s, correct? 25 A. If it says not available, it means they 25 A. Correct. j NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 49 (Pages 190 to 193) 36766920-761c-11d6-8c1c-00045a4bc Page 194 Page 196 j 1 Q. And what I am toying to find out for my 2 information and my clients is whether or not there 3 was asbestos in the Paco products in 1960, '61, 4 '62, '63, '64, '65, and '66, and I was of the 5 impression that it was, but you're hot telling me 6 that it was. 7 A. I am looking at this. You and I both 8 agree this says NA, not available! 9 Q. Right. 10 A. I think I did say, sir, that at that time, 11 all drywall products primarily were made with some 12 amount of asbestos. 13 Q. Okay. Let me -- two-fold. One, when you 14 say all drywalls, you're talking about products 15 Kelly-Moore made -- 16 A. The industiy. 17 Q. -- and everybody else made? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. Everybody's drywall product had asbestos 20 in it, to the best o f your knowledge? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And to the best o f your knowledge, 23 Kelly-Moore being in that industiy, theirs had 24 asbestos in it, too? 25 A. I have to assume it did. 1 Q. Okay. Mr. Giffins, in the four or five 2 other depositions that you have given since you have 3 been brought in to be a spokesperson for Kelly-Moore 4 on these issues, have the other attorneys in these 5 cases asked you about the composition of asbestos in 6 these products in the '60 to '66 time frame? 1 7 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 8 A. No, I don't think I can say that they 9 asked as much about the composition of the product. 10 I am no chemist. I didn't structure the material. 11 I --I have seen the batch tickets. I understand a 12 little bit o f the raw material implications, but I 13 don't recall on the other -- I'd have to go back and 14 review them, but I don't know if there has been as 15 much emphasis put on the earlier days here, as far 16 as the composition, sir. 17 Q. (By Mr. Coon) So, as we sit here today, 18 we know that asbestos was in the --all the product 1 19 --Paco product lines from '60 to '66, but we just 8 20 don't know if the composition of asbestos in them 1 21 was more or less than it was in the later '60s? 1 22 A. I am assuming asbestos was part o f it, and 1 23 I have no idea o f the balance. 1 24 Q. Okay. Could have been more, could have 1 25 been less? 1 Page 195 Page 197 j 1 Q. Okay. And you believe that percentage of 2 weight o f asbestos in the products to be five or six 3 percent? 4 A. I can't say that. I have no idea what it 5 was in these earlier days, sir. 6 Q. Okay. What would be a way for us to --or 7 who would we talk to, to get a better --a chance of 8 a better understanding o f the amount o f asbestos 9 that was in use in the Paco product lines in the 10 first five or six years that Kelly-Moore owned it? 11 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 12 A. Well, first o f all, all the records are at 13 the repository. It's open for anybody to go in 14 there. Most everybody has gone through it, and 15 there are production batch tickets in there and so 16 forth, so I would think that if somebody is 17 interested in that, they can, you know, make a trip 18 to the repository -- 19 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. 20 A. --with all the records. 21 Q. Okay. Have th e y - 22 A. I can't tell you what that -- 23 Q. Sure. 24 A. --percentage is, if those records are 25 there. 1 A. Sure could. j 2 Q. Now, with respect to where the asbestos s 3 came from, when we look at this, you know, 600 tons, 4 700, 800,900 tons o f asbestos -- 5 A. Excuse me. 6 Q. --is a lot of a product, so -- 7 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 8 MR. NANTZ: Objection, form. 9 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Well, that's more than a 10 dump truckload, isn't it? 1 11 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. I 12 A. Yeah. But you're still looking at only I 13 from anywhere from nothing to two-and-a-half to 1 14 maybe five percent o f the total mix o f the product. j 15 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. Well, sure. And if I 16 we look here when we talk about 11,000 tons of | 17 product, that's a lot of product, too, right? 1 18 A. Uh-huh. | 19 MR. HAZEN: Objection. I 20 MR. NANTZ: Objection, form. 21 Q. (By Mr. Coon) We're talking about you 22 would have to multiply that number by two and put 23 three more zeros behind it, so we're talking about 24 22 million pounds o f product, right? 25 A. Possibly, yes. ...... . . . . . .................................... 50 (Pages 194 to 197) NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 36766920-761C-11d6-8c1c-00045a4bdea7 Page 198 1 Q. Well, I mean, if you just take that number 2 and multiply it times 2,00G, that's about how much 3 product, Paco product, they made that year? 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. And you call - is that a lot of product 6 i to you? A lot of anything to you, just by weight. 7 something that's 22 million pounds? 8 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 9 MR. NANTZ: Objection, form. 10 A. 'Veil, it's kind of hard. Itjust depends 11 on, I guess what part of --perspective you're 12 trying to put it in. When I look at our plants, 13 that California makes 10 million gallons a year, and 14 if you equate that to pounds, I think it would far 15 exceed this. 16 The Paco part of the business was a very -- 17 was a small part of the total business. Now, if you 18 look at this poundage in relationship to this, it 19 seems like a lot. Okay? But in the scheme of 20 things, this was a very, very small part of our 21 business. 22 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. With respect to the 23 --let's take '69 here, for example. The 844 tons 24 of asbestos, that would have been about 25 one-and-a-half million pounds of asbestos? P a g e 20(1 1 years? 2 A. 1 do. 3 MR. NANTZ: Objection, form. 4 Q. (By Mr. Coon) And who were they, sir? 5 A. Carey Canadian out of Canada, Union 6 Carbide and Johns-Manville. 7 Q. Were they the three predominant suppliers 8 over the '60 through late '70s time frame? 9 MR. NANTZ: Objection, form. 10 A. From what I have seen of records, they were the only suppliers. 12 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. In any given year, 13 did Kelly-Moore deal with all three of those 14 companies, or was that a year-to-year contract? 15 MR. NANTZ: Objection, form. 16 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Or did it vary on --over 17 the time frames over the years? 18 A. You know, in looking at the --in looking 19 at the spread out, 1think there were some years 20 where there may --some --asbestos was bought from 21 all three, but the varying degree, certain ones were 22 larger suppliers to the company than others. 23 Q. Okay. Was there a particular reason that 24 asbestos was bought from those three companies? Was 25 there a --a pricing issue, or a quality of the Page 199 Page 201 1 A. You're talking --right here, the 844? 2 Q. Yes, sir. 3 A. Okay. 4 Q. Been a little over a million and a half 5 pounds. I think actually about 1.7, close to 1.7 6 million pounds? 7 A. I'll trust your calculation. 8 Q. I'm not the best at math but that's 9 ballpark. Where would that kind of load of asbestos 10 come from? 11 MR. NANTZ: Object to form. 12 Q. (By Mr. Coon) How would it get shipped to 13 you guys? I mean, this is obviously not enough - 14 the volume is such you can't go pick it up in your .15 pickup truck, right? 16 A. Huh-uh. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. No. 39 Q. How was this stuff supplied? Was it - 20 A. A lot o f -- 21 Q. -- 18 wheelers or railcars? 22 A. A lot o f it came in railcars and then some 23 of --I believe was delivered by tractor-trailer. 24 Q. And do you know who the suppliers of the 25 asbestos were for the Paco product lines over these 1 fiber, or the fiber composition, or what? If you 2 know. 3 A. No, I really don't. I can only - I can 4 only assume, so I - - 1 would have to say I don't 5 know. 6 Q. Do you know anything about the different 7 fiber types of asbestos? You hear anything about 8 the different fiber types? 9 A. Vaguely familiar, yes. 10 Q. Do you know the differences between the 11 amphiboles and the serpentine fibers? 12 A. Vaguely. 13 Q. What's your understanding of those 14 differences? 15 A. Serpentine is what --basically is what 16 the Chiysotile asbestos came from, is what we used 17 in all of our products. 18 Q. That was the next line of questions, if 19 you had an understanding of the principal types of 20 asbestos fibers that you-all bought. You believe to 21 be Chrysotile? 22 A. That's all we bought. 23 Q. Was there a particular reason that for 24 your products the Chrysotile was a preferred fiber 25 type? NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713)861-0203 51 (Pages 198 to 201) 36766920-761 c -11d6-8c1 c-00045a4 bdi Page 202 Page 204 i I A. I think it had to do with the --with the 1 joint compounds, and it --I don't know what that j 2 length. It was a little bit shorter, little bit 2 means - as fillers, it does show numbers here, but j 3 finer than some of the others and, therefore, worked 3 they weren't carried down. I 4 well in the drywall products. 4 Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not that is t 5 Q. Next we go to under the same chart -- 5 all that was manufactured at that facility, with 6 counsel, we're up to about pages 2089 of it -- the 6 respect to Paco lines, were the ready-mix joint 7 Ontario, California facility. Did that one ever 7 compounds? 8 make any of the Paco lines? 8 A. I don't know, sir. g 9 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. Because the ones under it was 1 10 Q. The chart starts at '68. Is that the 10 production tons of the dry powder -- i 11 first year that they started making it at the 11 A. Dry powder. I 12 Ontario facility? 12 Q. - - products joint compounds? 1 13 A. Do you have that letter again? 13 A. It could have been. Again, I am only | 14 Q. Yes, sir. 14 going by this sheet. 15 A. I can tell you. 15 Q. Okay. 1 16 Q. I think this says '68 on Mr. Merrill's 16 A. It could have been that that was the only j 17 letter. 17 product that they made there. 1 18 A. I am trying to find it on here. 18 Q. Okay. So, it could be that in looking at I 19 Q. It's the bottom o f the first page. 19 1420, that number could have carried down to the 1 20 A. Here it is, first page, second par -- 20 bottom, but we just don't know if that's the only I 21 third paragraph from the bottom. In '68 they added 21 product they made? 1 22 the drywall material to Ontario, and then they shut 22 A. That is correct. I 23 it down in '75. 23 Q. And, likewise, we don't have any [ 24 Q. Okay. Now, the Ontario facility, was that 24 information on the first two years with respect to 25 already an operating facility of Kelly-Moore before 25 the quantity o f asbestos used in those products? Page 203 Page 205 1 they went into the drywall manufacturing there? If 2 you know, was it already -- 3 A. I don't know. I think that was basically 4 put in there to be part o f an emphasis to be able to 5 get into southern California. 6 Q. Okay. Well let me ask --if I read this, 7 maybe this will answer it. It says, "We added a 8 drywall manufacturing facility to our Ontario, 9 California paint factory." 10 A. Right. 11 Q. So-- 12 A. So that would imply they came after. 13 Q. It would imply there was already a paint 14 factory there and they expanded to provide drywall? 15 A. I'll buy that. 16 Q. Okay. And that operated from '68 until 17 1975? 18 A. Five. 19 Q. And if we look at this chart, again, we 20 have, unfortunately, no information on the total 21 production in tons o f Paco products in '68, nor the 22 amount of asbestos that was used, correct? 23 A. Well, I don't know if that's true. It 24 looks like somebody didn't carry a number down. If 25 you go by this, production in tons of ready-mix 1 A. Evidently it's not showing there. 2 Q. Okay. If we get to the third year, '70, 3 it shows 20 tons o f asbestos purchased. And, again, 4 we don't have a total production in tons but we do 5 have production of ready-mix, correct? 6 A. O f this, yes. The first full year is 7 '72. 8 Q. Right. And then the next year, '71, we 9 don't have any information on any o f the amounts of I 10 production o f the ready-mix, or dry, but we do have I 11 65 tons o f asbestos purchased. I 12 A. Oh, you're talking about '71. 13 Q. Yes, sir. 14 A. Yes. I'm Sony, you're right. 15 Q. And for 72, again we actually have better 16 information that shows this year in 7 2 , they 17 actually had the determination of how much ready-mix 18 was made as well as the dry powder, which is 2193 19 tons, correct? 20 A. And, again,- - that's correct. If I look 21 at this, then I assume it was -- again, I have to I 22 look and see, but this tells me the same information 1 23 I think it's telling you, is that these are correct, 1 24 they didn't make the dry powder until 1975. 1 25 Q. Okay. So, then we look in 75, we got a 1 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 52 (Pages 202 to 205) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1c-00045a4bdea7 Page 206 1 number and then it gives us a --two subtotals and 2 one total of 4100 tons of product and 126 tons of 3 asbestos bought there? 4 A. Right. 5 0- And for '73, '74 and 75, it shows 129 6 ions in 73, and 117 tons in 74, and apparently 7 none in 75, and it indicates that --it's kind of 8 hard to determine here, but it looks like that early 9 in the year they shut down the plant. 10 A. Yes. And it could be that they were only 11 making the asbestos-free product at that time. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. Because that asbestos-free product was 14 available by then on one of the textures. 15 Q. Right. But we went from 5 or 6,000 tons 16 of product a year, down to 4,000 something in 73, 17 and only 400 in 75 indicates it was winding down? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Okay. 20 MR. HAZEN: Hey, Brent, can we take 21 a break? I'm having a coughing attack. 22 MR. COON: Oh, yeah. Sure. 23 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the 24 record at 3:17. 25 (A recess was taken.) 5 Page 208 \ t 1 A. I do not know, sir. | 2 Q. What happened in 72? I 3 A. Closed it down. 4 Q. Was it sold to --the equipment sold off 5 to anyone else or did they just shut it down? ( 6 A. Closed the factory down and continued to | 7 operate a store out of there for a while, and then j 8 subsequently moved from that facility and located f 9 elsewhere now. 10 0- Okay. And if we look at the forms there. f 11 which is actually on KMX page 2091, we have the | 12 Kirkland, Washington facility identified, '69 to \ 13 72, and it shows the amount of products and 14 employees and total amount o f production for seventy 15 --'69 through 71, blit there was not any available 16 information on the amount of asbestos contained in } 17 those products. Is that correct? i 18 A. That's what it shows here. \ 19 Q. Okay. If we go to --now, on this one j 20 where it says, NA, it's for total asbestos, we | 21 understand this form to be the identity of those j 22 companies that says, "Products Containing Asbestos, ; 23 Factory Location." It's on the top of each page | 24 here I think. J 25 A. Right. j 1| j Page 207 Page 209 | % 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the 1 Q. So, I am presuming that when we look at j 2 record. The time is 3:33. 2 this, based on the title, that there was asbestos in 3 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Mr. Giffins, we took another 3 the product, but we just don't have any information j 4 break, i want to go back through real briefly. We 4 on how much? j 5 still have a lot o f information to cover, but let me 5 A. Our assumptions would be similar. f 6 run through some more of these documents with 6 Q. Okay. Do you know which Paco products | 7 respect to the production records. 7 were made at this facility? : 8 We have the Kirkland, Washington facility next, 8 A. Not off the top o f my head. I think that j 9 and if we go back and look on Mr. Merrill's summary, 9 information is available but I don't - I don't 10 there is some additional information about when and 10 recall off top of my head. j 11 where that facility was opened and operated? 11 Q. Okay. So the next page, we have Hurst, j 12 A. it was a short time if I recall. It was 12 Texas. Now, this is the facility that you work at? | 13 like three or four years. If I could find it on 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 here. 14 Q. And it opened in 70/71. 1 15 Q. This chart indicates '69 to '72. 15 A. It was opened in --well, the plant was | 16 A. That's about right, because it was not 16 opened officially in late 70, yes. j 17 open for that long. 17 Q. And we have full year production records f 18 Q. Okay. Was this an acquired facility? 18 starting in 71 apparently? 19 A. Yes. 19 A. Evidently. | 20 Q. Who had it before? 20 Q. Correct? 21 A. Oh, I was afraid you were going to ask me 21 A. Yes, according to this. | 22 that. I can't recall. 22 Q. And unfortunately, the first two years do \ 23 Q. Did they make drywall compounds there 23 not show the amount of product made, but it does \ 24 prior to the acquisition, or was it a converted 24 show the amount of asbestos purchased? \ 25 facility? 25 A. That is correct. \ I NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 53 (Pages 206 to 209) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea; Page 210 Page 212 j 1 Q. And for '71 it was 678 tons; and Year 2, 2 827 tons? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. And then in Year 3, which is 1973, we 5 actually start seeing the index reflecting the total 6 amount o f product, which is 17,000 plus tons, and 7 the amount o f asbestos which is now 400 tons, 8 correct? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. And '74 and '75, numbers again speak for 11 themselves, correct? 12 A. Yes. And then this number would obviously 13 be well below five percent in 1973, if you look at 14 the tonnage. 15 Q. Okay. And that's again because of phasing 16 out asbestos in some products and reducing the 17 amount in others? 18 A. That was started in '72, and the first 19 asbestos-free product came out in '73, and it --and 20 could have been influencing that, yes, sir. 21 Q. And then we carry over to '78, and the 22 record reflects in '76, 13,000 plus tons of product, 23 and 342 tons o f asbestos in those products? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. 15,000 tons plus in 7 7 o f product, and 1 A. I mean '82, yes, excuse me. Thank you. j 2 Q. Okay. So we believe the Paco products I 3 line reflected here would have carried forward from jj 4 the late 70s on into the early '80s, but they would 1 5 have just not -- they would have been asbestos-free i 6 then? 7 A. That's correct. j 8 Q. So that would not have been reflected on | 9 the chart because this only shows products when they j 10 had asbestos? j 11 A. That's correct. 1 12 Q. And then we look at the ledger for Dallas, j 13 this starts -- that was the '63 to 7 0 facility? j 14 A. That was the year that we bought Hanna j 15 Paint, yes. 16 Q. Hanna Paint? And that would have been to j 17 1970, correct? | 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. And then you closed that facility because j 20 you got a new facility in Hurst? j 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. So, if we look at the years here from '63 j 23 to 70, we don't have good information on the amount \ 24 o f product made, or total production, or asbestos in | 25 those products until '67, correct? j j Page 211 Page 213 | 1 600 plus tons o f asbestos, correct? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. And the last year is 78, we're down to 4 1884 tons o f product and 23 tons of asbestos? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. And that was due to that facility 7 discontinuing the Paco product lines? 8 A. We in 1977 made a decision to get out of 9 --at that point making asbestos products. So this 10 obviously was the tail end o f it. 11 Q. Okay. Now, did the facility in 78 12 continue to make products that did not contain 13 asbestos -- 14 A. In --in Hurst? 15 Q. - in 78? Yes, sir. 16 A. Hurst? Yes, I believe they did. 17 Q. And for how long did they continue to make 18 products there after they discontinued making 19 asbestos-containing products? 20 A. I don't recall off the top o f my head, but 21 as I said earlier, the --the entire Paco thing was 22 shut down in 1982, and I think Hurst may have been 23 one o f the last facilities that was shut down. So, 24 they probably tailed more toward the end o f 72. 25 Q. '82? 1 A. That's the first time it shows any j 2 asbestos, that's correct. j 3 Q. Yeah. And so for whatever reasons there j 4 was just not good information made available on the 1 5 amount o f product made, or how much asbestos was J 6 bought until that year. In '67 we see 93 tons o f j 7 asbestos bought for that product line? 8 A. Again, that's 40 years ago, and it could 9 have been -- 10 Q. Sure. 11 A. -- records weren't readily available. 12 Q. Or maybe they're there now andjust still I 13 haven't been located in the right format or 1 14 whatever. 1 15 A. Could have been. 1 16 Q. You're talking '67, 93 tons purchased, j 17 correct? Are these also the Paco lines, this Paco 18 product? I 19 A. Yes, sir. 1 20 Q. Then we get to '68, '69 and 70, we still i 21 did not have information on the total production or 1 22 the amount o f production, but it shows the amount of 23 tons of asbestos each o f those three years being 173 I 24 tons, 53 tons, and 197 tons respectively? 1 25 A. Correct. 1 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 54 (Pages 210 to 213) 36766920-761c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea' Page 214 f Page 216 . ] .Q. Okay. Then we have the Denver, Colorado 2 facility. This also made Paco products? 3 A. It sure did. 4 Q. Same types we have been talking about? 5 A. I - they may not have made all of those, 6 . but they made some Paco products, that is correct. 7 Q. Okay. And then we go '73 through '76 with 8 that facility? What happened in '76? Were they 9 closed? 10 A. It was closed. 11 Q. And how was it this facility first opened 12 in '71? New facility or acquired facility? 13 A. It was an acquired facility, if I recall. 14 Q. Did they make product containing asbestos 15 at that facility before '71? 16 A. I don't know. We bought that, I believe, 17 from Professional Paints, or what they called Pro 18 Paint at the time. Here in 1971 we added a drywall 19 manufacturing facility to our Denver - so in '71 - 20 so we had to buy this prior because it was the 21 paint -- 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. It was prior. 24 Q. This preexisted '71 as a paint operation 25 o f Kelly-Moore? 1 A. Right. 2 Q. Is that correct? > 3 A. Yes. j 4 Q. Okay. And for those years, '67 through f 5 74, the Houston office would have made the same l 6 Paco product lines we have been talking about? i 7 A. They would have made some of them, because ? 8 not all plants necessarily made everything. 1 9 Q. Okay. And if we look here, it shows for \ 10 the first --actually for all years, '67 through 5 11 74, there is no information on the amount of l 12 production of tonnage of product? \ 13 A. Of total tonnage, correct. j 14 Q. Right. Or of the amount of ready-mix or 15 dry powder mix? 16 A. Right. j 17 Q. Itjust shows the number of employees each \ 18 year? ? 19 A. It does show the sales. 20 Q. The sales and employees? | 21 A. And get an idea of the growth of th e-- 5 22 Q. Okay. \ 23 A. From that standpoint. j 24 Q. Okay. And it looks like a bell curve, ' 25 started out kind of low, went up, peaked, peaked in j Page 215 ! Page 217 j 1 A. Evidently, yes, sir. } 1 the early 70s, and then went back down into 74 as I 2 Q. And then in '71 it was expanded to include 2 they started phasing it out? | 3 a Paco product line? 3 A. Right. f 4 A. Correct. 4 Q. And the asbestos composition, we can see | 5 Q. And that existed through, apparently 76, 5 it for each of the years: 23 tons, '67; 75 tons in j 6 correct? 6 '68; and unknown amount in '69. Again, most likely j 7 A. That's what it appears to be. 7 record keeping? * 8 Q. And unfortunately we have some records on 8 A. Either that or records weren't available. f 9 the tdtal production in tons, but there was no 9 Q. 1970, 83 tons; 1971, 87 tons; 1982, 319 10 record keeping of the amount of asbestos bought for 10 tons; 1973, 365 tons; and 1974, 184 tons. Correct? j 11 that facility for any of the calendar years, 11 A. Correct. ! 12 correct? 12 Q. And then last we have the Tulsa, | 13 A. It appears that way. 13 Oklahoma -- 1 14 Q. We next look at Houston, Texas, and this 14 A. Excuse me, can I look and see something a f 15 was -- is this the facility we talked about earlier, 15 minute here? 1 16 the vermiculite facility? 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. I don't believe so. I think there were 17 A. It's interesting. On the same amount of j 18 two separate facilities, sir. 18 sales in 71, they only used 87 tons of asbestos, j 19 Q. Okay. So we had the vermiculite plant, 19 and similar sales in 72. \ 20 and then we had the separate facility open in 20 Q. 72 and 73, and - 1 21 Houston from '67 until 74. 21 A. It's interesting. j 22 A. That's what this says, right. 22 Q. Yeah. Interesting spike in the amount of t 23 Q. And then it indicates that facility was 23 asbestos? I 24 closed, and the Houston area got supplied from the 24 A. Yeah. | 25 Hurst, Texas facility? 25 Q. You don't know what that was due to? j \ NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713)861-0203 55 (Pages 214 to 217) 36766920-761 r.-11rifi 1r--nn046a4hHpa7 ( Page 218 f Page 220 j 1 A. I do not, sir. 1 made? 2 Q. Okay. If we look at the Documents 21 -- 2 A. You're talking about the locations 3 this is 2100, counsel --we're talking about the 3 themselves? j 4 Tulsa, Oklahoma facility now, and this made Paco 4 Q. Yes, sir. 1 5 products from '69 until '74? 5 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. | 6 A. '75 is when they moved to Broken Arrow. 6 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Are there other facilities 7 Q. Okay. There are some comments on the 7 that made Paco products that we have not discussed f 8 bottom about relocating to Broken Arrow in '75. 8 here? \ 9 A. In August o f '75. 9 A. I don't believe so. It appears to be all 1 10 Q. And I bet you if you look at the next 10 o f them. f 11 page, there it is, Broken Arrow is the last one. 11 Q. Okay. Next, real briefly, Mr. Giffins, we j 12 '75 through'77? 12 have the -- this is Document 1020, four pages. This 13 A. Right. 13 appears to be a --some sort of form instructions 1 14 Q. So that's the relocation o f the Tulsa 14 that go with the different products. Have you seen { 15 facility? 15 those types o f documents before? j 16 A. That is correct. 16 A. I don't think I have seen this one per se, { 17 Q. And for records of '69, '70, and '71, we 17 but -- but I know what it is. It appears -- appears f 18 apparently don't have any for anything other than 18 to be directions, like on the back o f a package. | 19 the sales for each year? 19 Q. Okay. Were those directions that would j 20 A. Evidently, going by this. 20 typically be handled -- handed out by the local I 21 Q. Yeah. So we don't know how much product 21 store, or is that something retyped from what's on a 22 made, how many Paco products made, total tonnage of 22 bag or what, if you know? j 23 Paco, or the asbestos purchased for those 23 A. This is probably what was typed that went 1 24 facilities, correct? 24 onto the bag. Generally instructions are typed out, | 25 A. Correct. 25 and then they get printed onto the bag as to how j 1 Page 219 Page 221 | 1 Q. '72, we have it only for asbestos being 2 235 tons; '73, 236 tons; and '74, 298 tons, correct? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. And we still don't have any information on 5 the total amount o f products for those years, 6 though, do we -- 7 A. Not for that, no. 8 Q. -- for this? And if we get to when they 9 relocated at Broken Arrow in '75, we now have better 10 information on the production. We have 2400 tons of 11 ready-mix, 400 tons of dry powder, for a total of 12 2800 plus tons with a hundred and seventy -- 13 A. Eight. 14 Q. -- eight tons o f asbestos, correct? 15 A. Appears to be. 16 Q. And in '76, we have 9700 plus tons of 17 product on 252 tons o f asbestos; and in '77 we have 18 13,600 tons of product on 492 tons o f asbestos, 19 correct? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. All right. We have covered a lot of 22 ground there. Does this appear to be a pretty 23 comprehensive index o f the facilities that made Paco 24 products, and the years that each o f those 25 facilities was in business, and the products they 1 they're supposed to go. So, either somebody copied j 2 this off the bag, or it was done the other way 1 3 around. Instructions were written, and then they 1 4 were printed onto the bag. j 5 Q. Okay. 1 6 A. There's some more? Okay. I didn't look j 7 at those. j 8 Q. So, this would reflect instructions on how 9 to use the Ready-mix All Purpose Joint Compound? | 10 A. It's for Taping Compound, Finishing 1 11 Compound, Topping Compound, and Joint Compound, All 1 12 Purpose. j 13 Q. Okay. 1 14 A. Now, I would like to point out -- 1 15 Q. Yes, sir. [ 16 A. --from my experience, when directions are | 17 put together, they're put together as it relates to 1 18 the product. Then the other things that have to be 1 19 added, based on government requirements, or state I 20 requirements, generally are added when the bags are \ 21 printed. So, this may not - 1don't know when this j 22 was typed up, but generally this covers what would 1 23 have been prepared regarding the product itself as 24 far as the application. 25 Q. Okay. Did - did Kelly-Moore ever go back NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 56 (Pages 218 to 221) 36766920-761C-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 222 1 and restencil additional information on any of their 2 bags, additional logos, labels, anything else? 3 Anything that would have been added to the bags 4 after they came from Saint Regis? 5 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 6 1 A. Not that I'm aware of. The only thing 7 where stickers were added was when the OSHA 8 requirements came out. In order to comply, a 9 sticker was made up and put on the bags until the 10 bags were printed with that on there. 11 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. 12 A. But I am not aware that any other 13 modification was made to the bags. 14 Q. Okay. I have got another document here. 15 This is a 1018. 16 MR. HAZEN: Is that your number? 17 MR. COON: Our number. It's 18 previously marked KM 94 by somebody. 19 Q. (By Mr. Coon) But can you identify that 20 set of records there, sir? 21 A. This appears to be a listing of various 22 raw materials that were purchased from different 23 companies, and it's headed "Paco Products" so I'm 24 assuming it has to relate to Paco products. 25 Q. Would it have been the different vendors Page 223 1 or suppliers of the raw ingredients that -- 2 A. O f the raw materials. 3 Q. O f the raw materials you used to make the 4 different Paco products? 5 A. Correct. 6 MR. NANTZ: Objection, form. 7 Q. (By Mr. Coon) And it actually goes back 8 to - 1think one page is even you have St. Regis. 9 That would have been your bag supplier? 10 A. I mentioned St. Regis earlier. That's the 11 bag supplier that serviced San Carlos and there 12 could have been maybe somebody else different in 13 some o f the other plants, but St. Regis was, I 14 believe, the --one of the key suppliers of San 15 Carlos. 16 Q. Now, the bagging processes all took place 17 at the manufacturing facility, correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. You-all didn't ship - you-all 20 didn't mix it all up and make the product and then 21 ship it somewhere else to have it bagged? 22 A. No, it was the other way around. The bags 23 were made, shipped to us and we filled them. 24 Q , O k ay . A n y th in g else ab o u t th at? T hat's 25 just kind of a listing of the various suppliers of f Page 224 | 1 the raw ingredients. ] 2 A. Yes. I was just trying --oh, there they J 3 are. I was just trying to look further. That's | 4 what it appears to be. i 5 Q. Okay. And if we looked under the pigments j 6 and fillers, this was at Page 2 of the document, ? 7 when it talks about pigments and fillers, we have l 8 different ingredients. You have the limestone, 9 ground styrene, and it talks about Mica, and then |f 10 there is two listings here, 7RF02 asbestos, 11 Johns-Manville, and another is 7M05 asbestos, 12 Johns-Manville. 13 A. Right. 14 Q. Do you know what those codings meant? Was f 15 that a quality or grading of the product? 1 16 A. I believe, and, again, I am not a chemist, | 17 I didn't --but I believe the 7RF is what they | 18 called a float, and the one without the RF on it was j 19 a basic Chrysotile. Both of these were Chrysotile, j 20 but this was what's called a float. It's a little j 21 bit different fiber. Don't ask me how to explain } 22 it. It's processed through water from what I i 23 understand. | 24 Q. Okay. Would this have reflected that both j 25 types of asbestos would have been used in the Paco | 1 t. Page 225 f5 } 1 textures, or were they picked from one or the other | 2 on various Paco products? j 3 A. I'm not sure I understand your question. f 4 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 1 5 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. Are the things that j 6 are listed oh here as ingredients --are all these j 7 ingredients what went into the Paco product, or did | 8 some go in some products, some go into others? 1 9 A. I have to believe not all these went into j 10 any one product. I think since the products were j 11 used for different uses, for different purposes, j 12 that this was the total list of raw materials at | 13 that time for the Paco products. j 14 Q. Okay. And this is chopped off. It looks j 15 like December of -- * 16 A. '75. i 17 Q. - '75? j 18 A. By the second page. | 19 Q. There we go. December o f '75? 1 20 A. Right. f 21 Q. So, it appears, at least at this time j 22 frame, you told us about the three suppliers as f 23 being of the raw material asbestos, Manville was one f 24 o f th e m , a n d it a p p e a r s fro m th is fo rm th a t fo r \ 25 1975, at this particular facility, at least during j ....... . .1..ILL.....-.L-- .....w-- ....................................................... 1 57 (Pages 222 to 225) NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 226 Page 228 j 1 that time frame, Manville was the supplier o f the 2 asbestos for the Paco products? 3 A. He's listed on there, yes. 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. But what you need to understand also, if I 6 may inteiject, these types of lists were made up 7 periodically throughout the year, so that we always 8 had a record of raw material suppliers. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. So when this one was made in 12 of 75, it 11 reflected that Johns-Manville was the supplier; but 12 there could have been a list that was six months 13 before that, or the one that's 12 of 7 4 could have 14 had a different supplier. 15 Q. Sure. It could have been Carey Canada? 16 MR. NANTZ: Objection to form. 17 A. Could have been. 18 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Mr. Giffins, did - 1 might 19 have asked you this, but did Sherwin-Williams make 20 any joint compounds or textures? 21 A. Not that I know o f when I was with them. 22 Q. Okay, sir. And that would have been from 23 '60s through'85? 24 A. I went to work for them in '61 and left 25 them in '85. 1 Westco, yes. Thank you. j 2 Q. Any other ones come to mind? j 3 A. Drawing a blank. j 4 Q. Okay. Mr. Giffins, I want to next turn -- f 5 we have covered a lot o f information with respect to j 6 the various manufacturing facilities, and the 1 7 products that Kelly-Moore made that --that had \ 8 asbestos in them, and I realize that at some point j 9 in time after OSHA came out, Kelly-Moore took some | 10 actions with respect to their products, but instead j 11 of going through them ad hoc, I want to go back and j 12 take a separate trail with you now, sir, and that is j 13 what I call generally the internal corporate j 14 information upon what Kelly-Moore did, and when they 1 15 did it, and why they did it with respect to | 16 asbestos. | 17 And there were a number of boxes that j 18 Kelly-Moore's produced to us, in addition to some 1 19 other information that we have obtained from some I 20 other sources, all of which I think originated from J 21 Kelly-Moore. But I want to walk you through them j 22 andjust ask you if you have seen the documents 23 before, and if you know anything about them, and 24 maybe ask questions for you. I 25 I have tried to take most o f these in j Page 227 Page 229 j 1 Q. All right. And in the time frame o f the 2 '60s, this is before you went to work at 3 Kelly-Moore, but do you have an understanding today 4 o f who the competitors were in the Paco product 5 lines with Kelly-Moore through the '60s and 70s? 6 A. Man. Any name I would give you would be 7 speculation on the -- on the names that I am 8 familiar with. I am very -- you know, Hamilton, 9 been around for a long time. In the bay area, there 10 was a company called Westco that made material. 11 Geez, there is a lot o f names that escape me at the 12 moment, but to tie it into specific dates, that's -- 13 or time frames, that's a little tough. 14 Q. Okay. Have you heard of a company called 15 Proco? 16 A. Oh, sure. Yeah, I'm sorry. 17 Q. Would they have been a competitor? 18 A. They have been, yes. 19 Q. Synkoloid? 20 A. Synkoloid is more in patching, I believe. 21 Q. Georgia Pacific, which I think you-all 22 actually sold some rebranded stuff to, correct? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. National Gypsum, are you --U.S. Gypsum? 25 A. That's the --that's the one that bought 1 chronological order. And in going through the 1 2 boxes, when we had basically asked for information j 3 concerning Kelly-Moore's asbestos products, and | 4 internal documents concerning their discussion with 1 5 asbestos, the vast majority o f the documents I have I 6 received, or at least been able to review, were 1 7 generated after 1972, or at least after the first o f 1 8 the year in 72. In that regard, I want to first j 9 ask you about documents before 72. And you are not 1 10 employed with Kelly-Moore until '85, correct? 1 11 A. That is correct. 12 Q. Have you ever been involved in 13 assimilating information on behalf o f Kelly-Moore 14 responsive to the asbestos litigation? 15 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 1 16 A. What do you mean, assimilating? i 17 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Well -- 1 18 A. Actually collect --going out and j 19 collecting it? 1 20 Q. Sure. Have you ever been one o f the j 21 persons that was contacted by Kelly-Moore at some j 22 level saying, can you help us get this information? \ 23 This is what the attorneys have asked for, this is 24 what somebody has asked for, and we need you to try 1 25 to round this type of information up? 1 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 58 (Pages 226 to 229) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 230 Page 232 .1 A. I have not. It wasn't until April o f 2001 2 when I got the call and asked to get involved with 3 this, the first time I was aware of all that was 4 going on, and I was never involved with actually 5 going around, picking up documents, and putting it 6 \ together. 7 Q. And in the years prior to 2001 you had not 8 been asked to just assimilate information, not to be 9 the corporate representative, but just to assimilate 10 information for somebody else who may be the 11 corporate representative? 12 A. Prior to April of 2001, my knowledge of 13 the as --Paco and the asbestos issue would output 14 on the tip o f a pin. 15 Q. Well, basically you didn't go to work 16 there until a number o f years until after most of 17 the Paco product lines had already been shut down? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. And so, you, here today to be the 20 corporate representative to discuss a lot of these 21 issues, had to go back and look at historical 22 information and talk to people? 23 A. (Indicating.) 24 Q. And I think you have done that, right? 25 A. Oh, yes, sir. 1 information started to come out regarding the 2 asbestos. All the information from OSHA began to 3 really start to surface, and all the other 4 information. So, materials that I was looking at, 5 was related to when the company was --got involved. 6 Anything I have seen is related to around that 7 period forward. 8 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. With respect to the 9 product lines, we know that Kelly-Moore made 10 asbestos-containing products going back to, I think, 11 1960, correct? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. From that standpoint, let me ask you first 14 a separate line of questions before we get into 15 documents. Do you know any --from your talks with 16 Kelly-Moore representatives --you have talked to 17 Mr. Merrill, correct? 18 A. I have, sir. 19 Q. Talked to anumber of the other people 20 that were there back when. Were you ever able to 21 determine that Kelly-Moore had done any types of 22 testing of the Paco product lines before they 23 released them into the stream of commerce? 24 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 25 A. What do youmean by testing? Page 231 1 Q. Talked to a number of people that worked 2 there back in the old days even before you were 3 there, and looked at a lot of these documents that 4 Kelly-Moore had in their repository? 5 A. I have gone through every box in that 6 repository, and you're welcome to do it, too. 7 Q. How many boxes are there in the 8 repository? 9 A. 88. 10 Q. 88 boxes? 11 A. Roughly 88. 12 Q. And where are these additional records 13 kept? In San Carlos? 14 A. At San Carlos, yes, sir. 15 Q. Are they kept in a particular room that 16 just deals with these issues, or is it part of a 17 larger repository o f all their information? 18 A. It's in a room that's partitioned off and 19 it only contains documents relevant to this issue. 20 Q. Okay. In your reviews of that information 21 before, did you see much in terms of the 22 correspondence, internal memos and letters dealing 23 with these issues prior to 1972? 24 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 25 A. No, because it wasn't until '72 that the Page 233 1 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. Testing with respect 2 to any potential health hazards associated with 3 asbestos in those products. 4 A. We did testing of the product, primarily 5 the application of the product, how it went on, that 6 type of deal. 7 Q. Had to do with viscosity, making sure it 8 adhered right, making sure it didn't crack and peel 9 and chip? 10 A. Uh-huh. 11 Q. Just in terms of it being a product that 12 did what you said it would do? 13 A. That's correct, sir. 14 Q. Okay. With respect to potential health 15 hazards, are you aware of any testing that was done 16 by Kelly-Moore in the early years of their making of 17 this Paco product line, as it related to any 18 potential health hazards with asbestos? 19 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 20 A. Could you help me out, and maybe give me a 21 little bit idea on what kind --I mean, what do you 22 mean testing with health? 23 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Well, sure. Did they do 24 anything to determine, for instance, in stirring up 25 the boxes, or the bags of asbestos-containing - NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 59 (Pages 230 to 233) 36766920-761c-11d6-8c1c-00045a4bdea7 Page 234 Page 236 1 Let me back up. Let's talk about just the 2 textures. 3 A. Okay. 4 Q. And you had 25-pounds bags o f it, right, 5 powder form? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. And you could add water and stir it up. 8 Do you know if Kelly-Moore ever did any dust testing 9 to see how much asbestos dust, or dust was released 10 from the dumping o f the bag into a bucket, adding 11 water and stirring it all up? 12 A. You have got to be talking about once it 13 got in the user's hands? It would have to -- 14 Q. At any point. Even --in the plant we can 15 talk separately about two different issues. You're 16 probably familiar with the difference between field 17 studies versus plant studies. 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. Okay. Let's talk about first the field 20 studies. Just with making the product, were there 21 any tests done at any point in time from 1960 when 22 they made the product until --when was it they 23 quit? The late '70s? 24 A. Making it with asbestos? 25 Q. Yes, sir. 1 That doesn't indicate that something hadn't been 2 done. 3 Q. With respect to the asbestos in the 4 products, and your review o f the records, and 5 talking to anyone about this matter, do you have a 6 feel for when it was that Kelly-Moore was first 7 aware o f -- let's talk about just diseases first -- J 8 was first aware of the disease of asbestosis? 1 9 A. The first documentation that I have seen 10 that anything came to the table on diseases was in 11 the spring o f 72 when the Asbestos Institute sent a 12 letter to Mr. Merrill, I believe, it was either 13 Mr. Merrill or Bob Miller saying that a certain 14 survey had been conducted, and that there were some 15 indications that exposure to dust over a long period 16 o f time could cause some health problems. And that | 17 was in the spring of 72, and that's the first thing j 18 I have seen that was any indication from a medical | 19 standpoint that there was a problem with asbestos. j 20 Q. Was - 21 A. Where actually --excuse me, where the 1 22 diseases were mentioned, sir. 23 Q. Right. 24 A. Where there was a -- j 25 Q. Do you have an understanding as to whether Page 235 Page 237 1 A. 77. 2 Q. 77. Okay. From the 1960 to 1977 time 3 frame, was there any information you were able to 4 determine where Kelly-Moore did any testing o f the 5 product in a field circumstance to determine the 6 dust release and asbestos release in that dust? 7 A. I am not aware o f what they did then, 8 although I can tell you what we do today, I think, 9 was basically how things were done then, and that's 10 where two --two aspects, two things happened. 11 One, when the product is made, it's always 12 tested as far as the application and the performance 13 o f the product. And it's always geared to the 14 painting contractor, and how that professional is 15 going to use the product. We do that today, and I 16 believe that was done back in those days. Was that 17 philosophy still applied to Paco? I -- it's part o f 18 our daily operating procedure so I would assume 19 maybe it was. 20 There were times where you would go out, and 21 take the product and go out on the job site, and 22 actually mix it so that we get a feel for that type 23 o f thing. As far as tests, doing a measurement o f 24 how much dust was emitted from the material, I have 25 not seen anything that says that, but I don't know. 1 or not Kelly-Moore was what you call a subscriber to 2 workers' compensation in Texas back in the '60s and 3 70s? 4 A. What do you mean, subscriber? 1 5 Q. Did they have workers' comp coverage for 6 their employees? 7 A. As far as I know we did. Again, it's an 8 assumption but, I mean, we do now. 9 Q. Okay. Any reason to believe that they did 10 not have workers' comp in your earlier days? 11 A. Not if it was a requirement, no. 12 Q. Okay. Well, I think an employer has the 13 option of getting workers' comp for their employees. 14 You don't know one way or another if they had 15 workers's comp? 16 A. I can't answer that. 1 17 Q. Do you know whether or not, with respect 1 18 to the California facilities, whether or not the 1 19 employees were covered with workers' comp? 20 A. At what time period? 21 Q. In the '60s. 22 A. Well, again, I didn't come until '85, so 23 from my own personal experience, but I --I don't 1 24 know for a.fact if it did or it didn't. I do know j 25 that there is only indication of one workman's comp 1 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 60 (Pages 234 to 237) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 238 Page 240 1 claim that came out of the San Carlos factory, and 2 that was in 1981. So ~ and that person was working 3 in the plant for years prior to that. 4 Q. Okay. And I was going to ask you two 5 different lines of questions on that and you brought 6 \ up the second line. The first line was when you 7 were aware, or from -- there is probably a 8 difference between when you were personally aware 9 versus when you believe the corporation was aware, 10 but that Texas under it's workers' compensation 11 prior to the time that Kelly-Moore acquired the Paco 12 product lines, that under Texas law, that you could 13 have a recognized disease of asbestosis, which was 14 compensable under the worker's compensation 15 statutes? 16 MR.HAZEN: Object. 17 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Do you know - do you know 18 when Kelly-Moore would have been aware of that? 19 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 20 A. No, I do not. 21 Q. (By Mr. Coon) And the same thing with 22 respect to California. Do you know - have any 23 understanding of when Kelly-Moore was aware that the 24 California workers' compensation statutes provided 25 for the compensability o f occupational dust disease 1 record. The time is 4:21 p.m., May 31st, 2002, 2 beginning of Tape 3. 3 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Mr. Giffins, I want to go 4 back to just a couple other things. We have here - 5 and unfortunately it's not even identified with a KM 6 number. It's an attachment to a set of 7 interrogatories. 8 Counsel, show you as Exhibit "A" to the 9 attached set, but Kelly-Moore had filed answers to 10 discovery before. You're familiar with 11 interrogatories, questionnaires you fill out, file 12 with the court? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. This was an Exhibit "A" attachment to a 15 set that had been filed, and listed are a number of 16 the product lines that Paco made that had asbestos, 17 and it lists the years that those products were made 18 as well as the years asbestos was discontinued in 19 them. Have you seen that before? 20 A. I do not --I don't recall seeing this 21 particular sheet, but I have seen something similar 22 to this, which lays out similar information, but in 23 a little bit different format. 24 Q. Okay. Kind of shows you - if we look at 25 that it would tell us basically the composition of Page 239 Page 241 1 like asbestosis? 2 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 3 A. No, I don't know when that fit into 4 workmen's comp. We do all -- we --all of us know, 5 I believe, that OSHA was promulgated back in '70, 6 published in '71, and was about that time OSHA, 7 which regulated the workplace, indicated --was 8 coming out with dust controls. 9 Now, if workmen's comp was prior to that, I 10 don't know that, sir. I really don't. I assume it 11 came after that as it related to that, because 12 that's when the whole thing about asbestos started 13 to come forward. 14 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. 15 A. So, I assume it would have been after 16 '70. 17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Excuse me. Can 18 we go off the record for a tape change? 19 MR. COON: Sure. 20 MR. HAZEN: Why don't we just take 21 five? 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the 23 record at 4:09. 24 (A recess was taken.) 25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the 1 asbestos over the various years from the time it was 2 fully used in the product until the time it was 3 excluded from the product, correct? As well as 4 dates of manufacture, and dates asbestos was 5 excluded? 6 A. It shows on market, and the use of when 7 asbestos was --the date when use of asbestos was 8 discontinued, and it does show the amount of 9 asbestos per product line. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. How it varied, so forth, right. 12 Q. Okay. If we can just - 1 tell you what, 13 I'll just draw in the bottom here that this was 14 Exhibit "A" to interrogatory. We will use that for 15 purposes of identification on the attachment. Okay? 16 All right. We were talking about from a 17 historical context your review of Kelly-Moore's 18 archives, and things, what they knew about asbestos, 19 and you brought up --we were talking about testing 20 for asbestos dust, and you brought up a worker's 21 compensation claim, and could you tell me -- 22 A. Before we - 23 Q. --a little more about that? 24 A. Before we do that, can I go back? I want 25 to clar --I think I need a clarification, or we do NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 61 (Pages 238 to 241) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea Page 242 i Page 244 j 1 here. 2 Q. Sure. 3 A. When you asked me about testing -- 4 Q. Yes, sir. 5 A. ~ for some reason, I kept --I was 6 responding to you in the time frame prior to OSHA, 7 which w a s'70,'71. 8 Q. Right. 9 A. I thought that was what your question was. 10 Q. Okay. We can make it that if you need to 11 clarify it. Prior to the OSHA Regulations, was any 12 testing done by Kelly-Moore o f the atmospheric 13 release o f asbestos on their products? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. Not that I'm aware of. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. Because there was testing done after that 19 point. 20 Q. Sure. 21 A. But, again, from that time frame, I was 22 thinking in terms that you were asking me prior to 23 OSHA or prior to -- 24 Q. Right. 25 A. --the regulation. 1 information, but in looking at it, it indicated that j 2 there were three occupational facilities -- three j 3 occupational injuries at that facility. And then ] 4 there was one, looks like Item Number 22, one for j 5 dust disease to the lungs, and there was one claim | 6 at the facility that year as well. A m i reading j 7 that correct right here in Line 22? 8 A. It says, "Dust diseases o f the lungs, one, j 9 number of cases involved permanent transfer, one; j 10 number of lost workdays, one." j 11 Q. Do you have any idea what that related to? 1 12 A. No. It says Paco factory in 1974. I'm | 13 familiar with the form but I'm not familiar with \ 14 this particular one here. | 15 Q. What would the Paco factory be, since we | 16 know that there were several different Paco 1 17 factories? Do you know which Paco factory that was? 1 18 A. No. It's an OSHA form, and --but I can't I 19 -- it's no way to tell which factory it is, sir. | 20 Q. And it indicates that there was a claim j 21 for what's called pneumoconiosis. You're aware that 22 asbestosis is a type o f pneumoconiosis? 23 A. Yes, sir. | 24 Q. Just --it is a dust disease? j 25 A. Yes, sir. 1 Page 243 Page 245 1 Q. We will talk about that. 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. One other side-note, you had brought up an 4 issue about a worker's compensation claim? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. As I understood it, you were aware of an 7 employee of Kelly-Moore making a claim for 8 asbestos-related health problems back around '80, 9 '81? 10 A. The claim goes back, it was filed in '81, 11 yes. 12 Q. Okay. Is that the only one that you were 13 aware o f filed prior to 1980 that dealt with an 14 employee o f a facility alleging some health related 15 problems from working around asbestos? 16 A. A workman's comp claim? 17 Q. Yes, sir. 18 A. That is the only one, yes, sir. 19 Q. I have got --counsel, this is our 20 Document 1145, BB 6497 -- this was a summary sheet 21. included in our forms that talk about the Paco 22 factories, 1974. Have you seen that before? 23 A. I have seen a form similar to this, yes. 24 I don't know if it was this. 25 Q. Well, it doesn't provide a lot o f 1 Q. But you do not know from this, or from any 2 other information, whether or not that individual I 3 had a specific claim for an asbestosis injury, or I 4 some other form o f dust disease there in the plant? J 5 A. No. Ido not. | 6 Q. Okay. Do you know if there were any other | 7 claims by any employees prior to 1980 for an injury I 8 associated with what I'll call more generically just 1 9 occupational dust disease or pneumoconiosis versus a 1 10 claim for asbestosis? J 11 A. I am not aware of any --the only 1 12 workmen's comp information that I have seen relevant j 13 to any disease, or any issue such as this, was that 1 14 one that was filed in 1981. j 15 Q. Okay. Now, with respect to things other I 16 than asbestosis, you're familiar that asbestosis I 17 also causes other health-related problems such as I 18 lung cancer? You're aware of that, are you not? 1 19 A. Well, I guess it could. I see them as j 20 three different issues, or two different issues, j 21 lungs cancer and asbestosis being different. | 22 Q. Sure. But you understand asbestos, | 23 exposure to asbestos fibers can cause lung cancer? | 24 A. I understand that could be, that could | 25 happen, yes. j NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 62 (Pages 242 to 245) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 246 Page 248 1 Q. Okay. Now, with respect to lung cancer, 2 are you aware of any of your employees at 3 Kelly-Moore, at any of these Paco facilities, making 4 a claim for workers' compensation benefits for a 5 diagnosis of lung cancer as opposed to asbestosis? 6\ MR. HAZEN: At any time? I am just 7 faying to clarify. 8 Q. (By Mr. Coon) I'm sorry, before 1980. You 9 have told us you were aware ofjust this one claim 10 in 1981 for asbestosis, correct? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. And we know -- 13 A. Again, it was a workman's comp claim and 14 I'm not sure it was asbestosis, but I'm aware that 15 there was that one workman's comp claim in '81. 16 Q. Okay. I'm sorry, maybe I misunderstood. 17 Was the claim in '81 for just a claim for exposure l8 to asbestos, or was it a claim for asbestosis, or 19 was it a lung cancer, or do you know? 20 A. No, it was a claim by a gentleman by the 21 name of Waller Lawrence, who had worked in the Paco 22 plant for sometime prior to that, for payment of 23 around -- an $806, $800 of his medical bills. And 24 the prognosis, the final determination that came 25 back from the doctor was that he did not have any 1 that can cause mesothelioma? 2 A. Well, I --to me on mesothelioma, asbestos 3 can cause - it's a fatal disease, but --and I am 4 no medical doctor, for say. 5 Q. Sure. 6 A. And I'm not --but I also, you understand, 7 you can get that without being exposed to 8 asbestosis. 9 Q. Do you have an understanding of what else 10 can cause mesothelioma -- 11 A. No. 12 Q. --other asbestos fibers? 13 A. I do not. 14 Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not you have 15 had any employees who have been diagnosed with 16 mesothelioma? 17 A. I do not. 18 Q. Do you know whether or not you had any 19 employees --when I say employees, I am talking 20 about ones that worked around any o f your asbestos 21 facilities like the Paco facilities -- do you know 22 whether or not any of them have suffered a diagnosis 23 o f a lung cancer? 24 A. Again, no. I --again, the only thing I 25 have ever seen is that deal from 1981. Page 247 Page 249 1 asbestos-related disease. 2 Q. Okay. So --and that was in 1980, or 3 '81? 4 A. That w as'81, sir. 5 Q. And that's the first instance you're aware 6 o f somebody thinking they may have some asbestos 7 related health problems from working around the 8 product at the plant? 9 ` A. That's the only workmen's comp one that I 10 have seen, yes, sir. 11 Q. Okay. Are you aware of anyone prior to 12 that time having a claim for something that could be 13 more generic like lung cancer, fromjust working at 14 the plant? 15 A. No. I have not. 16 Q. Are you familiar with a term called 17 mesothelioma? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Are you familiar that that's also another 20 highly associated cancer from working around 21 asbestos fibers? 22 A. Mesothelioma can be caused by asbestos, 23 but it also, I believe, can also be caused by other 24 things. 25 Q. What's your understanding of other things 1 Q. Okay. And post '81, is that one in '81 2 the only one you have seen, or was that the first 3 one you have seen? 4 A. That's the only workmen's comp claim that 5 I have seen. 6 Q. Okay. Who handles the workers' 7 compensation issues at Kelly-Moore? Do those get 8 funneled through somewhere at --in California or 9 Hurst or both or what? 10 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 11 A. They're usually funneled --I think they 12 all end up in our personnel department - 13 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Where is that at? 14 A. - at some point. In San Carlos. 15 Q. It's in San Carlos? Is there a separate1 16 repository where people track the injury claims from 17 people that work out at Kelly-Moore? 18 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 19 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Is it just a different 20 department from other departments or is it where 21 they handle all of the financial issues, and - 22 A. Well, I can't answer that because - 23 medical records are confidential and, so, therefore, 24 I don't know how they end up. I do know that our 25 personnel department generally will get involved NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 63 (Pages 246 to 249) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bde; Page 250 Page 252 1 where we have an issue with the workmen's comp claim 1 called again? 2 or something, but where all those records are, I 2 A. The Dry -- Drywall Institute Trust Fund. j 3 can't tell you for a fact. 3 Q. Okay. And what do you know about that 4 Q. Okay. All right. We were talking about 4 organization? 5 from the historical standpoint when it was your 5 A. That's an organization that basically what j 6 understanding that Kelly-Moore first had an 6 - - how do I put it? It was almost like a clearing 7 awareness o f asbestos diseases, and I want to first 7 house for drywall information, and they provided 8 ask you, you were telling us about OSHA being in the 8 some information to us, or we got some information 9 early '70s, the entity that created a heightened 9 from them back in '82 relevant to what is starting j 10 awareness at Kelly-Moore with respect to these 10 to develop with asbestos. 11 potential problems. Is that generally what you were 11 Q. Do you know how long that organization had j 12 saying? 12 been in existence? i 13 A. I -- that's when I think we --we started 13 A. I can't answer that. j 14 to get -- being aware of it but I don't think we 14 Q. Do you know how long Kelly-Moore had been j 15 were the only ones. I think the industry as a whole 15 a member o f that organization? j 16 became more aware of asbestos in the early '70s. 16 A. I don't ever think we were a member. 17 Q. Was there an organization that dealt with 17 Q. You just think you-all provided 18 joint compounds and textured materials? Was there a 18 information from them, although you were not a 19 Drywall Manufacturers Association or something? 19 member? 20 A. Well, there probably was. 20 A. I think we may have gotten the information 21 Q. Do you know if there still exists any such 21 because of one o f raw material suppliers may have 22 type of organization? 22 requested they send it to us or whatever, but -- 23 A. I can't really say that. 23 Q. Okay. 24 Q. Do you know whether or not Kelly-Moore was 24 A. But I don't believe we were ever a member. 25 a member o f any organizations that dealt with these 25 Q. Okay. I don't have some documents here Page 251 Page 253 j 1 specific product lines they made like the diywalls, 1 that I have reason to believe are in existence. I 1 2 texturing products? 3 A. I have not seen anything that would 2 don't know if Kelly-Moore has seen them but I have 3 seen them in other circumstances, but one o f your j I 4 indicate that we were members, or associated with 5 any association in the drywall industry. 6 Information was available to us through various 4 raw material providers was Johns-Manville, correct? 1 j 5 A. Johns-Manville, yes. 1 6 Q. And you mentioned a couple others, I think 7 organizations, but I don't --haven't seen anything 7 Carey Canada? 1 8 where we were an active member of any organization, 8 A. Carey Canadian. 1 1 9 or --there is a couple organizations from the paint 9 Q. And Union Carbide? 1 10 side that we are involved with that goes back to 10 A. That's correct. 1 11 mid, late '70s. There is only one or two, but as a 11 Q. Did any o f those companies ever provide to 1 12 whole, they're the only ones I can recall ever 12 Kelly-Moore, prior to OSHA, let's talk pre '72, did 13 seeing. 13 any o f them ever provide Kelly-Moore with any 14 Q. You mentioned earlier the --you said the 14 information regarding potential health hazards 15 AI was --Asbestos Institute, I think, is that the 15 associated with exposure to asbestos? 16 Asbestos Institute o f America? 16 MR. NANTZ: Objection, form. 17 A. Oh, the -- 17 A. Did I hear something? 18 Q. The ALA? 18 MR.HAZEN: Go ahead. You can 19 A. I'm drawing a mental blank. The Asbestos 1 20 Institute Trust Fund, I believe is the head --is I 21 the clarification. 19 answer. 20 A. Oh, okay. Prior to '72? 21 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Yes, sir. 22 MR.HAZEN: Drywall. 22 A. So you would have said'71 prior? 1 23 A. Drywall, yes, excuse me. I'm sorry. 23 Q. Yes, sir. 1 24 Thank you. 24 A. No. I haven't seen anything. 1 25 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. Now, what's that 25 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with material 1 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 64 (Pages 250 to 253) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 254 |i Page 256 1 safety data sheets? 2 A. Uh-huh. 3 Q. Does Kelly-Moore have those for the Paco 4 product lines? 5 A. Would we have made those up and supplied 6 1MSDS sheets? 7 Q. Yes, sir. 8 A. You know, I can't answer that. It's a 9 good question. I can't answer that. 10 Q. If such documents had existed, where would 11 they be kept? 12 A. MSDS sheets became a requirement, a 13 federal requirement at one point. I don't know what 14 year that was. So I am sure we would have done it, 15 but I - - 1just - 1 can't recall when that would 16 have happened. 17 Q. I am going to backtrack one more time. 18 There was another document I found at the break. 19 Counsel, this one is KMX 183. It's ours KM 1239. 20 We talked about these different Paco products 21 containing asbestos, and there was a memo here. See 22 if you have seen this. It was to Mr. Merrill, which 23 you talked about earlier, that talked about asbestos 24 fibers in a paint product. And were you aware that 25 Kelly-Moore had made paints containing asbestos for 1 different numbers were applied to those. This -- 2 here it is right here. You look at it, Paco 3 products, right here. 4 Q. Okay. And what are those? Paco product 5 225, 235 and 521? 6 A. I am not totally familiar with those. | 7 They obviously were very small volume. : 8 Q. Do we know what they looked like? j 9 A. I have no idea. j 10 Q. Do you know why they would have included 1 11 paint with asbestos? i 12 A. Well, again, it goes back to even that 13 terminology of that one dry product. It was called, f 14 I believe, texture paint. Right? | 15 Q. Right. f 16 A. And that was dry. So anything that would 1 17 be put on with an applicator other than a spray | 18 unit, or a trowel, it could be applied with a brush, j 19 or textured with a brush, they --my --it looks j 20 like they called paint. | 21 Q. It indicates --I think we read it here it j 22 came in one, three or five-gallon? j 23 A. It looks like one and five gallon pails. ! 24 Q. One and five gallon pails? j 25 A. Right. 1 1 I Page 255 Page 257 1 1 a --I think it's about a five-year time frame? 2 Wasn't it '63 to '68? 3 A. I don't know --see, these could be the 4 products that were --there was a texture paint that 5 asbestos was also used in, and I don't know if that 6 was -- is any of these. I think some o f these 7 numbers are, I think, from that Paco list. 8 Q. You think that those were made --you 9 talking about the texture paint that we talked about 10 in this earlier document? 11 A. There was a dry powder, and then I believe 12 there was also a liquid. 13 Q. Okay. They have -- well, maybe I didn't 14 understand. You think there was a liquid texture 15 paint as well as the powder that we talked about in 16 the bag? 17 A. Texture paints were part of the industry 18 for many years in the early '70s. Not just 19 Kelly-Moore but these numbers, I --I --these look 20 like they're Paco numbers. You have that sheet that 21 showed the cross-reference? Oh, here we go. 22 This doesn't have the numbers on it. 23 Q. The texture paint is 5563. 24 A. Yeah, but it was also identified --that 25 was what's on the bag, but there is a different -- 1 Q. Okay. j 2 A. These are Paco products. j 3 Q. So those would have been under Paco? 4 A. Yes, sir. s 5 Q. Okay. Going back to your product 6 suppliers, you're not aware of Manville or Carey 7 Canadian or Union Carbide providing any types of 8 notices to Kelly-Moore of any health-related 9 information concerning the raw asbestos they 10 provided, at least before '71? 11 MR. NANTZ: Objection, form. 12 A. Iam not aware that any information was | 13 provided to Kelly-Moore prior to '71. i 14 Q. (By Mr. Coon) And in '71 did either or 1 15 any o f those three companies start providing j 16 information, or were you still using it as their | 17 time line? 18 MR. NANTZ: Objection, form. 19 A. If you get into '72,1can answer your 20 question. J 21 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. Let's go to '72. 1 22 A. Anything 71 and prior, no. f 23 Q. Okay. 72, any information from any of 24 th e m a te ria l p ro v id e rs ? ! 25 A. We had that letter, as I indicated, from | i i 65 (Pages 254 to 257) NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 258 Page 260 j 1 the Drywall Institute, and then in '73 Mr. Merrill 2 attended a Johns-Manville --Johns-Manville seminar, 3 and whereby health issues and asbestos were 4 discussed, and then in '72 we had information from 5 our Liberty Mutual, who did the inspections on our 6 plant, and in one of their reports, they mentioned 7 in their detailed report about the aspects of the 8 diseases that asbestos could cause. 9 So, around '72 is when all this information -- 10 '72 and then into '73 is when it started to surface. 11 Q. Okay. If we go back here. I have got 12 January o f '72 ~ we have got a number of documents 13 here I am going to try run through here pretty 14 quickly with you, sir, but we have got 1058. This 15 was a letter to Mr. Merrill from the vice president 16 of sales at Carey Canadian and it attached with it 17 the EPA proposed regulations dealing with asbestos. 18 You're familiar with those, are you not? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And that's kind of what you were talking 21 about awhile ago, that OSHA was coming in, and that 22 was part o f the EPA project to start restricting or 23 controlling the --the dust released from asbestos? 24 A. Yeah, OSHA controlled the workplace. 25 Q. And in the OSHA or EPA's desire to protect 1 looking at other fibers as a replacement for their I 2 asbestos, and to look at eliminating asbestos as a 3 raw material in their formulations, correct? j 4 A. It says, "In view of the hard look that is j 5 being taken at asbestos, we have started to look at j 6 other fibers as replacement." Yes, that is correct. 1 7 And this is February of *72. 8 Q. Okay. And what did Kelly-Moore do 1 9 following that memo with respect to following up j 10 with the recommendations made? 1 11 A. Recommendations as to what? 12 Q. Recommendations made by Mr. Murphy with 13 respect to looking for substitutes for asbestos and 14 eliminating it in their formulations. 15 A. Based on the information I have seen, 1 16 there was a very concentrated effort to begin to j 17 look for substitutes. A lot of different aspects j 18 were looked at. In fact, Mr. Merrill, who was the 19 chemist at the time, or was involved with the 20 chemistry o f putting the products together between 21 '72 and 77, actually worked on around 236 different 22 formulas to revise those products. 23 Q. And when did products first become revised 24 as a result o f this additional research? 25 A. Well, the first one was in '73, when we Page 259 Page 261 1 the levels o f dust in the workplace, that would 2 concomitantly result in the ability to continue to 3 make the product based on keeping the dust counts 4 low enough in the factory to make the product? 5 A. OSHA set requirements as to what were 6 acceptable airborne contents, yes. 7 Q. Okay. And we know at least as to '72 that 8 the manufacturers were trying to keep Kelly-Moore 9 abreast with respect to ongoing developments with 10 respect to the potential for regula --federal 11 regulation of asbestos? 12 A. (Indicating.) 13 Q. Correct? 14 A. Can I see this? 15 Q. Sure. 16 A. Sure. This is the letter to Mr. Merrill 17 dated January the 24th, 1972, indicating that he was 18 attaching the federal register regulations for 19 proposed standards, and advising us that there was a 20 hearing slated for a certain date. 21 Q. Okay. And shortly after that, we have 22 1022. We have a letter dated February o f '72 from 23 Dan Murphy at Paco to Mr. Merrill and other 24 Kelly-Moore representatives that states at Page 2, 25 that due to those issues Kelly-Moore needed to start 1 came out with the asbestos-free wall texture. I 2 Q; Was this a Paco product? j 3 A. Yes, sir. | 4 Q. And over the next number o f years, how i 5 long was it before asbestos was phased out of all o f j 6 the Paco products? I 7 A. That was phased out in '77. But, between 1 8 '72 and '77, there were formulas that were revised 1 9 and different raw materials were looked at to get 1 10 the product ~ to substitute the asbestos. The I 11 asbestos was taken out of some of the products in 1 12 different percentages and went from a six percent 13 down to maybe a two. We had a couple of 14 non-asbestos products, but in 77 asbestos was out 15 of everything. 16 Q. Okay. I would take it one of the 17 immediate concerns at Kelly-Moore would have been to 18 continue to be able to make the product, the Paco 19 products, and stay in compliance with the new OSHA 20 restrictions on the dust counts within the facility? 21 A. Yes, sir. 1 22 Q. Do you know -- j 23 A. And we did. I 24 Q. Do you know what was done by Kelly-Moore 1 25 as a result o f the new OSHA standards on the dust 1 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 66 (Pages 258 to 261) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 262 P a g e 2 6 4 1\ 1 releases to get them within compliance to the new 2 standards? 3 A. Yes. And- - boy, maybe this is a time, 4 too, to clarify something. I want to go back to 5 prior to the break when you were asking me about 6 ^ testing. Okay. I had in my mind that it was prior 7 to '70, and I want to make sure we don't get messed 8 up here. 9 Our testing was done - - a lot - some testing 10 was done beginning in '72 because of Liberty Mutual 11 was our industrial hygienist. We also did some 12 product testing in '75. So, there were tests -- 13 there was testing done on the products, but I 14 believe I may have mislead you because I thought you 15 were asking me about '70, prior to '70. 16 As it relates to this, what did Kelly-Moore do 17 to bring to - - to comply with OSHA, we had the 18 industrial hygienist visit the plants, check them, 19 and make - - tell us what we needed to correct and we 20 corrected them. 21 A whole new exhaust system was installed in San 22 Carlos. The respirators were made available to the 23 employees on - on a regular basis. There were 24 physical examinations done from that point on for 25 new hires, existing people, and on terminations. 1 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Did Kelly-Moore devise them? ] 2 Where did that language come from? j 3 A. Oh, the language was provided by OSHA. 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. By the government. 1 6 Q. Okay. So, they said this is the minimum | 7 you have to provide on your bags so that's what t 8 you-all did? | 9 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. j 10 A. No, they didn't say minimum. If you read \ 11 the OSHA requirements, specifically says you shall l 12 put this statement on your material. ~ 13 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Did it restrict the ability i 14 of Kelly-Moore to provide any additional j 15 precautionary language on their bags? 16 A. I don't recall in the regulation itself if j 17 it allowed for additional, but I --they were very 18 emphatic in what was to go on as far as what they | 19 wanted on the bag. f 20 Q. Okay. For instance, as a result o f the f 21 OSHA involvement in 72, certainly you would agree j 22 that Kelly-Moore was aware by then asbestos caused ] 23 asbestosis, lung cancer, mesothelioma? j 24 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. j 25 A. I can't say that, sir. j 1 Page 263 Page 265 j 1 Handling of the clothing, everything. 2 So, we responded to everything that was 3 required by OSHA and our industrial hygienist to 4 comply with the law. 5 MS. YANOF: Object to 6 responsiveness. 7 Q. (By Mr. Coon) And one of the things that 8 was done, as I understand it, were to comply with 9 government regulations, was to provide a notice on 10 the bags, the Paco bags, that the products contained 11 asbestos? . 12 A. That was one o f OSHA's requirements, 13 correct. 14 Q. Right. And as a result of the OSHA 15 mandate to inform the purchasers o f the product, 16 Kelly-Moore provided what we looked at earlier on 17 these photos of the bags o f what was described as a 18 cautionary label. We can go back and look at 1030. 19 I think they all read the same. It says -- 20 A. Yeah. "Caution, contains asbestos fibers, 21 avoid creating dust, breathing asbestos dust may 22 cause serious bodily harm." 23 Q. Now, with respect to those types of 24 cautionary labels, who devised those at Kelly-Moore? 25 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 1 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Are you -- f 2 A. First indication o f the disease asbestos, J 3 mesothelioma, seemed to come out of that | 4 Johns-Manville seminar which was in 1973. i 5 Q. Okay. Did the labeling that we looked at f 6 on those photos ever change for the duration of the ^ 7 time that Kelly-Moore continued to make Paco 8 products with asbestos in them? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. So - 11 A. Well, excuse me. 1 12 Q. Yes, sir. j 13 A. What label are you talking about? | 14 Q. The labeling that we have on the bags, I J 15 think they all read the same on the photos there. 16 Did that labeling ever change over the next few | 17 years that Kelly-Moore continued to make products | 18 with asbestos in them? i 19 A. Are you talking about the caution label? j 20 Q. Yes, sir. | 21 A. No. That was --that was the label that 22 was on the products until day one --from day one. f 23 Q. Okay. And we do know that the product was j 24 made through 7 7 or 78, c o r r e c t? 1 25 A. 77. | NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 67 (Pages 262 to 265) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 266 * Page 268 j 1 Q. At least some with asbestos in them? 2 A. Right. 3 Q. And some was still sold in 1978 with 4 asbestos in it? 5 A. Yes. We could have sold it through -- 6 well, you could even have sold some of the --the 7 spray textures after 78, but basically through 78 8 was the end, yes. 9 Q. And to the best of your knowledge, the 10 label that we just described that was one put on in 11 72 did not change over the remaining years that 12 they sold the products? 13 A. That is correct. In fact, I think that's 14 still part of the OSHA requirement today. I don't 15 think that ever changed. 16 Q. Mr. Giffins, next have a memo, this one is 17 KMX 1938, it's ours 1056. It's dated April 72, and 18 I want to turn your attention to the second page of 19 this document. It talks about major problems being 20 developed. 21 A. I need to familiarize. 22 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 23 A. Okay. 24 MR. HAZEN: Can I look at that real 25 quick? 1 Did I read that correct? 2 A. Yeah, they were indicating there was 3 possible asbestos, asbestosis exposures. 4 Q. Okay. And this is back in --this is 5 72, right? 6 A. April o f 72. 7 Q. April 72? So we know that at least 8 Kelly-Moore's discussions with their carrier in 7 2 1 9 that that was something that they were made aware I 10 of? | 11 A. As I say, it was in 7 2 that we started to 12 become aware. Liberty Mutual was the first one that 13 reported back to us any aspect about a disease, and | 14 then subsequently our seminar that we went to with | 15 Johns-Manville where it talked about diseases. 16 Q. Okay. Now, let's talk about this next one 17 real quick. This was a document from Drywall 18 Industry Trust Fund that you talked about. And as 19 early as the summer o f 72, they sent a letter to 20 Mr. Pickens, and he is president to the Paco 21 Textures. Do you know them? I 22 A. I know o f him. 23 Q. Okay. Do you know Paco Texture? Is that 24 Paco Textures? 25 A. That's Paco, yes. That should be PA. Page 267 Page 269 1 THE WITNESS: Sure can. 2 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Let me show you this one 3 while he is looking at that one. Are you done? 4 MR. HAZEN: Just one second. 5 MR. COON: I am trying to cover a 6 lot o f ground in a short period o f time, Scott. 7 A. That happens to be -- that happens to be 8 the top sheets distribution to various corporate 9 executives, and the rest o f it has to do with a 10 report that was prepared by Liberty Mutual which was 11 our industrial hygienist after their visit to the 12 plant in April o f 72. 13 Q. (By Mr. Coon) And their visit was 14 promulgated or precipitated by the OSHA regs? 15 A. OSHA Regulations. 16 Q. Okay. And if we look at the second page 17 there, it talks about concerns. 18 MR. COON: If I can have it back 19 real quick, counsel. 20 MR. HAZEN: Okay. 21 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Page 2, under Line 8, major 22 problems are being developed by -- and it lists two 23 as material handling; and then B, potential 24 asbestosis exposures in drywall products departments 25 in mixing dry ingredients and filling containers. 1 Q. That should be Paco, that's you guys, 2 right? j 3 A. Yeah, Paco. j 4 Q. And this letter is sent from Mr. Spence as I 5 Safety Committee Chairman from the Drywall Industry 1 6 Trust Fund advising him as president that they had 1 7 been in attendance to meetings with Dr. Irving j 8 Selikoff, it says Selikoffs --it's Selikoff. Do I 9 you know or have you heard o f Dr. Selikoff? 1 10 A. Sure have. 1 11 Q. Okay. It talks about his studies at that 1 12 time, showing that there was a significant increased 1 13 risk of lung cancer amongst those in the sheetrock 1 14 taping industry, correct? 1 15 A. It talks about the three-year study that 1 16 --on the effects of dust, that is correct. 1 17 Q. Okay. So we know that as o f the summer o f 1 18 72, the president o f Paco Textures had been 1 19 apprised o f studies showing that people that worked 20 in that industry were susceptible to cancer of the I 21 lung from working around those products? 1 22 A. Well, it talks of --it talks about that 1 23 fact about cancer, yes. But again, it's like I said 1 24 earlier, this was -- we got this information, when 1 25 --you asked me about when did we start to learn 1 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 68 (Pages 266 to 269) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 270 i Page 272 \ 1 about the issues. It came with an industrial 2 hygienist inspection, this letter, and 3 Johns-Manville's seminar. 4 Q. Okay. But we do know that for the next 5 seven or eight years there was still no additional 6 \ supplemental warnings or cautionaries on the bags 7 that contained asbestos from Kelly-Moore, that the 8 products could cause asbestosis, or the products 9 could cause lung cancer, exposure to the asbestos in 10 those products? 11 A. Well, I don't know what else you can say 12 except what that --the caution. I think that's 13 pretty explanatory. 14 Q. Okay. Well, and I understand that your 15 standing by the precaution that's on there, but you 16 would agree that the caution does not say that you 17 can get asbestosis, does it? 18 A. Well, it doesn't say that, but it says it 19 can be - cause serious bodily harm. 20 Q. It does not say you can get lung cancer, 21 does it? 22 A. It does not. It says serious bodily harm. 23 Q. But never did say you could get cancer 24 from it? 25 A. Well, when --I interpret it as being very 1 products? j 2 A. Respirators were even available to the 3 employees prior to that. | 4 MS.YANOF: Object to \ 5 responsiveness. f 6 A. At this point it became mandatory. | 7 MS.YANOF: Responsiveness. | 8 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. So there was 1 9 voluntary usage before and in light of the j 10 heightened awareness and regulations, respirators f 11 within the facilities became mandated in certain ! 12 work areas? | 13 A. Yes. j 14 MS. YANOF: Form. | 15 A. They were always there for the employees | 16 to use. 1 17 MR. COON: And, counsel, it's | 18 Documents 1138 and 1143. | 19 MS. YANOF: Objection, i 20 responsiveness. jj 21 Q. (By Mr. Coon) And after that, there are j 22 additional follow-up meetings in October '72, and f 23 there was Bob Miller on this committee. Do you know 1 24 who Bob Miller was? j 25 A. Yes. He was the plant manager-- j | Page 271 1 emphatic that it could cause some kind of major 2 problem regardless if it's cancer or whatever. 3 Q. Now, you told us that as a result of the 4 Liberty Mutual meetings and the OSHA mandates, that 5 the Paco facilities initiated some additional 6 protocols. One would be chest x-rays for the 7 employees you had to start doing each year, correct? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. And that was because they were at high 10 risk o f getting lung disease from working around 11 asbestos, correct? 12 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 13 Q. (By Mr. Coon) So you-all had to monitor 14 that? .15 A. I would just --I don't know if high risk 16 is an appropriate word, but they were at risk, yes. 17 Q. They were at risk. They were at a higher 18 risk than a nonexposed population? 19 A. Possibly. 20 Q. And so Kelly-Moore initiated programs with 21 respect to their own employees to give them an 22 annual chest ray --chest x-ray, correct? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. And provide respirators, they had to start 25 using respirators where they were working around the j Page 273 |j 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. --in charge of the plants. j 3 Q. Okay. And in Document 1108 reflecting the j 4 Paco production meeting indicates that he advised j 5 the other committee members that Kelly-Moore must j 6 now have a warning on each product container to 7 indicate that asbestos is in the formula. 8 MR. HAZEN: What's the document 9 number on that, Brent? 1 10 MR. COON: This is 5319. | 11 A. KM BB 5319. j 12 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. | 13 A. This is dated October of '72. J 14 Q. Right. Now, was it in response to this | 15 that we see the cautionary labels that are on the f 16 various pictures that we talked about earlier? | 17 A. Yeah. This is when --when OSHA came down 1 18 and started to perm --and publish the regulations, j 19 this was part of it, that the warning had to be put j 20 on there. This addresses that. And so to comply > 21 immediately, we had ~ they had pressure sensitive | 22 stickers made up and put on the bags until all of jj 23 the bags could have the actual caution that you see | 24 there printed. | 25 Q. Now, was that done as a result of this j NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 69 (Pages 270 to 273) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1c~00045a4bdea Page 274 ij Page 276 1 meeting? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Okay. So, in October o f '72, we --we 4 start putting -- or preparing for labels for the 5 bags? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And then we have KMX 1379, shortly 8 thereafter is when it was necessary to put in the 9 vent --ventilation equipment to further reduce the 10 dust counts in the manufacturing facilities, where 11 they were making the Paco products. 12 A. Yes. This was -- 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. This is just information from Mr. Merrill 15 to Bob Miller of the activities that were taking 16 place relevant to OSHA and the labeling. 17 Q. Okay. And subsequent to that --and, 18 counsel, this is KMX 0619, our document 1257. It's 19 dated January 4, '73, from Liberty Mutual. They 20 actually did an industrial hygiene study at the -- 21 one o f the Kelly-Moore facilities. This is at the 22 Ontario plant in California. They made Paco 23 products there, correct? 24 A. Yes. By the way -- 25 Q. Yes, sir. 1 MR. COON: I know everybody wants 2 to -- | 3 MR. HAZEN: I don't want to rush him 4 now. j 5 MR. COON: That's fine. 6 MR. HAZEN: He's been very I 7 cooperative. 8 MR. COON: He has. I 9 A. Yeah, it did indicate that the fibers in 1 10 the areas that were tested, where the samples were I 11 taken did exceed five fibers which was the --I 12 think that's a five. It has to be. 13 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. Do you know what the 14 standard was before the OSHA reduction of the - J 15 A. 12. 16 Q. You think it was 12 fibers per cubic 1 17 centimeter? j 18 A. Yeah. 1 19 Q. Do you know what it was before that? j 20 A. No. I 21 Q. Okay. 1 22 A. The five was an emergency deal. They came I 23 out and said we're going to do 5 to get the thing 1 24 going. j 25 Q. Okay. And Liberty Mutual tested the other | Page 275 Page 277 1 1 A. --they were the ones who inspected most 2 o f our plants. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. Okay? 5 Q. And in their inspection o f the facility 6 for the atmospheric asbestos dust counts, it was 7 determined that the levels exceeded the permissible 8 limits for the employees, correct? 9 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 10 A. This letter is dated January 4th, 1973. 11 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Can we just read the first 12 couple sentences off the second paragraph? 13 A. That's what I am reading. 14 MR. HAZEN: And, Mr. Giffins, I am 15 going to caution you to take your time to read each 16 and every document -- 17 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I am. 18 MR. HAZEN: --that you're being 19 asked to. We're not going to start rushing at this 20 point. No need to. 21 MR. COON: Scott, it's fine. I don't 22 have to be home until Sunday. 23 MR. HAZEN: We will give you your 24 six hours. You will get it and if we have to here 25 until 8:00, we'll do it. 1 facilities where the Paco products were made? 1 2 A. Correct. | 3 Q. Do you know what the general results were j 4 from the other inspections of the other facilities 1 5 around that same time frame? 1 6 A. The San Carlos one needed some work, which 1 7 you indicated, but from what ~ everything that I 1 8 have been able to see and detect, as soon as 1 9 anything was determined that was out o f line with 1 10 what the requirements were, corrective action was 1 11 taken immediately to get it fixed. 1 12 Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not | 13 Kelly-Moore had initiated any industrial hygiene 1 14 inspections of those facilities before OSHA? 1 15 A. I can't answer that. I don't know for 1 16 sure. I believe there were people that inspected 1 17 the plants for a period of time. Whether it was | 18 Liberty Mutual prior to OSHA or not I don't know, I 19 sir. 1 20 Q. Okay. Now, there were some additional 21 regulations that dealt with spray-on products in the 22 '72 standards, correct? 23 A. May I see that, please? 24 Q. Okay. Well, I don't think it's on --on 25 there but I was just asking if you were generally NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 70 (Pages 274 to 277) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 278 1 aware when the OSHA regs came in '72 if there was a 2 --at that time a ban that went into effect 3 immediately with respect to certain types of 4 asbestos applications? 5 A. OSHA addressed the condition of the 6 l workplace both in the factory and where the people 7 --when they used the product. Okay? They - there 8 was a ban by the Consumer Products Safety 9 Commission, I believe, in 78 which forbid the use 10 of asbestos injoint compounds. 11 Prior to that, everything was from --if I am 12 answering your question correctly, based on the 13 standard established by OSHA which was the 5 fibers 14 per milliliter. Now, they also banned the use of 15 asbestos in fire retardant and pipefitting-type 16 stuff which was the main issue. That was banned, I 17 believe, early in --in 73, 7 -- 72, 73. 18 Q. That would have been thermal insulation 19 and spray-on applications -- 20 A. Right. 21 Q. - for fireproofing? 22 A. That's right. Did not affect the products 23 that Kelly-Moore was making at the time. 24 Q. And I think there was some concern -- 25 reading through the correspondence there was a % Page 280 j 1 Carbide, and you told us earlier that Liberty Mutual \ 2 was your company - - 1 take it Liberty Mutual was j 3 you-all's - they were probably your workers' i 4 compensation carrier, I would guess; is that | 5 correct? ? 6 A. Uh-huh. | 7 Q. Okay. And so they wanted to initiate | 8 these dust counts within your facilities for | 9 purposes of the workers' comp? \ 10 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. f 11 A. Could you repeat that please? f 12 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Yes, sir. j 13 A. I was looking at this and not paying j 14 attention to you. j 15 Q. I'm sorry, I was asking a question while I 16 you were reading something. i 17 I would assume Liberty Mutual was out doing I 18 dust counts at the plants for purposes o f the ; 19 workers' comp premiums?> ) 20 A. For workmen's comp premiums? You mean to jj 21 take the counts for their benefit? 1 22 Q. Well, if - if Liberty Mutual is your \ 23 workers' compensation carrier, they probably want to jj 24 get some idea of what the risk issues are, and want j 25 to go out and inspect the plant for overall plant | Page 279 iit Page 281 j 1 general concern to some degree at Kelly-Moore that 2 the ban on spraying asbestos for fireproofing could 3 apply to the spray-on application of the textures 4 andjoint compounds? 5 A. That is correct. And we inquired with the 6 E -- EPA to find out if, in fact, our products were 7 covered, and they said no. 8 Q. They said it just applied for those 9 fireproofing purposes? 10 A. That is correct, sir. 11 Q. Did not apply for tex screening and so 12 therefore Kelly-Moore made the decision they could 13 continue to make that product and not be afoul of 14 OSHA regs? 15 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 16 A. Well, OSHA said you could continue to make 17 the product if you met these qualifications. We met 18 the qualifications. 19 MR. COON: Next we have 0168. 20 Counsel, this is our document 1236. 21 MR. HAZEN: Okay. 22 Q. (By Mr. Coon) This one is dated November 23 13,73. It appears to be another industrial 24 hygiene sample. It's called "Airborne Asbestos 25 Fiber Counts." And these were collected by Union I conditions because they're going to have to cover | 2 the medical bills for employees, right? j 3 A. Sounds logical. jj 4 Q. Okay, I am --was there any other reason j 5 that Liberty Mutual was the one selected to do your j 6 industrial hygiene studies? j 7 A. I can't answer that. | 8 Q. Okay. 1 9 A. I know they did them and, as I say, they jj 10 may have even been doing studies prior to OSHA. | 11 Q. But they were not an industrial hygiene | 12 organization? Liberty Mutual was not. They're an f 13 insurance company? j 14 A. Yeah, but they - I believe they have a I 15 division which does that. They have people that go j 16 out and do the inspections and measure -- | 17 Q. Sure. \ 18 A. --which they did. j 19 Q. Right. And they went out to you-all's ; 20 plants because they were your --you were their 1 21 insured? Kelly-Moore was their insured? 22 A. I'll agree with you, I guess. 23 Q. Okay. Well, I was presuming that but did j 24 not know. I mean, were you-all hiring Liberty 25 Mutual to come out and inspect them because they had j 1 71 (Pages 278 to 281) NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 282 1 an industrial hygiene division, or were you-all Page 284 ) 1 1 the industrial hygiene studies, found the excess ! 2 doing it because they were your insurance carrier? 2 fiber counts, this was a follow-up letter to the 3 A. I can't answer that. I wasn't there. I 3 employees to let them know that that was an issue, 1 4 don't know how that came about. 4 and that there were going to be certain protocols \ 5 Q. Okay. 5 with respect to OSHA and faying to get into 6 A. But I know they did inspect the plant and 6 compliance? 7 they told us where we complied and where we didn't 7 A. I assume that's what that implies, yes, 8 comply, and as a result of that we did what they 8 sir. 9 asked us to do. 9 Q. Okay. Now, one o f the things it talked i 10 Q. Okay. And so where you were out of 10 about in here --I want to turn your attention to 11 compliance, where the dust counts were too high, you 11 number 3. It says, "Rotation o f ' --there you go. 12 had to go in and provide additional ventilation, or 12 Got it? "Rotation o f schedules to minimize 13 other procedures to lower the counts to get them 13 exposure." 14 within the OSHA limits as set at that time? 14 A. Correct. 15 A. That's correct. 15 Q. Do you know what that means? 16 MR. HAZEN: Object to form. 16 A. Part of original OSHA requirement said 17 THE WITNESS: Oh, sorry about that. 17 that if you were in -- if, in fact, an area was not 1 18 MR. COON: Scott, how we doing on 18 in compliance, you had the ability to rotate people t 19 time? 19 until you brought it into compliance. | 20 MR. HAZEN: Why don't we take five 20 Q. Okay. And that was because OSHA f 21 minutes real quickly and we will add it up and see 21 Regulations had a certain level of permissible 1 22 where we are? 22 exposure in a given hour, based on an eight-hour 1 23 MR. COON: Okay. 23 day, correct? 1 24 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the 24 A. On an eight-hour day, it was -- based on 1 25 record at 5:10. 25 an average, it was five. 1 Page 283 Page 285 I 1 (A recess was taken.) 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the 3 record. The time is 5:38. 4 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Ready? 5 A. Yes, soriy. 6 Q. Mr. Giffins, we next have 1061. Counsel, 7 this was your document 1380. 8 MR. HAZEN: Okay. 9 Q. (By Mr. Coon) This is July 25, '72. It 10 appears to be addressed to each employee at Paco 11 textures. Would that be at all their facilities 12 that were in place in 1972? 13 A. It appears it would be, yes. 14 Q. Okay. And subject is Paco status? 15 A. Paco status concerning OSHA requirements 16 for asbestos exposure. 17 Q. Okay. And what was the first statement 18 for Mr. Merrill? 19 A. He says, "You should be aware that we are 20 presently exceeding the exposure limit set by the 21 Occupational Safety and Health Act for asbestos. 22 And this was a result of the Liberty Mutual -- 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. --visit which was prior to this. 25 Q. So, when Liberty Mutual came out and did 1 Q. Right. And are you familiar with the TWA? j 2 You know what that meant? [ 3 A. TWA? 4 Q. The time weight average. 5 A. Oh, I've heard o f it, but -- f 6 Q. Did you know how the OSHA standards took 7 place with respect to measuring the fiber counts in I 8 the particular areas of the plant? I 9 A- I failed that test. 1 10 Q. Okay. Are you aware --I take it you are 1 11 aware that if the amounts o f dust exceeded the I 12 permissible amount on an hourly basis, that what you 1 13 would do is you could have an employee just work 1 14 there a few hours a day, and get a full day's dose 1 15 and then be taken out of that area where he's not 1 16 exposed anymore? j 17 A. It could go up to a maximum, I believe, of j 18 10 over that eight-hour period if it did not exceed 1 19 five hours per day. 1 20 Q. So, what Kelly-Moore decided to do, 21 apparently, from this memo, was to take employees 22 that normally worked eight hours a day in certain i 23 areas that were getting overexposed, under those j 24 OSHA limits, and to say you're not going to work j 25 there eight hours anymore, you're going to work j NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 72 (Pages 282 to 285) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 286 Page 288 1 there just a few hours, and we are taking you off 2 and putting somebody else in there? 3 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 4 A. Well, that says that you could do that. 5 Whether they did or not, sir, I don't know. 6 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. Well, it did say 7 that we are taking the following actions to comply 8 with the requirements? 9 A. That is correct. 10 Q. So, by all indications from Mr. Merrill, 11 one of the ways Kelly-Moore was going to continue to 12 keep their plants fully operational was to rotate 13 people out of the high-exposure areas? 14 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 15 A. Again, that was a -- that was a process 16 that was provided, or OSHA said could be done within 17 --within their guidelines. 18 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Sure. I mean, OSHA allowed 19 y'all to rotate them out? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. So y'all did it, right? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. So, y'all are playing with within the 24 rules -- 25 A. Right. 1 A. I can't answer that, sir. I don't know 2 what they knew at that time other than what I have 3 read. 4 Q. Did the employees that worked out at the 5 Paco facilities all have uniforms that they left 6 there every day? 7 A. They wore certain --I don't know --like 8 coveralls, I would have to say. Something like 9 that. 10 Q. Were these provided by the plant, or were 11 these their own that they brought as part of their 12 regular attire? 13 A. I can't answer that. I don't know if they 14 were provided or not. 15 Q. Okay. We next have this letter from the 16 Drywall Industry Trust Fund. I think you mentioned 17 them earlier. Actually, I think we discussed this 18 one. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. I want to ask you one other thing 21 here. Did you know Mr. Spence? 22 A. Mr. Spence from the Drywall Industry Trust 23 Fund? 24 Q. Right. 25 A. No. Page 287 Page 289 1 Q. --but you're not --but to play within 2 the rules, your guy couldn't even work there for an 3 eight-hour shift? 4 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 5 Q. (By Mr. Coon) That's why you had to 6 rotate them out, right. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. And one o f the other things it 9 mentions that Kelly-Moore decided to do was improve 10 the handling of work clothes. Do you know what that 11 addressed? 12 A. Specifically, I don't know what they did 13 then, but at the --when they put all that 14 ultimately into effect, a lot o f the clothing was 15 put in bags when they were changed. And the way 16 they dusted themselves off was looked at 17 differently. I can't get into the specifics of what 18 was actually implemented, but it all had to do to 19 comply with the handling o f the clothing in line 20 with OSHA Regulations. 21 Q. Do you know whether or not Kelly-Moore was 22 aware at that time with the employees having the 23 clothing on their --the dust on their clothing that 24 that could be taken outside the workplace, taken 25 back to their vehicles, back to their homes? 1 Q. Did you have any involvement with the 2 Drywall Industry Trust Fund? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. From the times you worked there from '85 5 since, do you know whether or not that organization 6 is even still in existence? 7 A. I can't tell you that. 8 Q. Do you know if there were any other 9 organizations like the Drywall Industry Trust Fund? 10 A. I cannot tell you that, sir. 11 Q. Okay. Well, this one said for the 12 advancement of drywall in California. Do you know 13 if they had a state-by-state type of organization, 14 they had the same type o f deal in Texas, for 15 instance? 16 A. I don't know that for a fact. 17 Q. Do you know if there was any national 18 industry like the drywall industry? If there was a 19 national organization? 20 A. I don't think I have seen anything so - 21 but it doesn't mean there wasn't. 22 Q. Okay. Next, I don't think we have talked 23 about this one yet. This is KM 1060. 24 Yours 1381, counsel. 25 This was a Paco production meeting letter, I NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 73 (Pages 286 to 289) JC T C K Q O O -7R - i i - . n H f i.R r 1 r-nnn4Sa4bdea7 Page 290 ? Page 292 j 1 would guess Mr. Marquardt and Bob Scudder? 2 A. This was a -- this is production meeting 3 notes, meetings where they --they had a meeting and 4 took notes. 5 Q. Okay. Who took the notes? Do you know? 6 A. I don't know who took the notes. 7 Q. Okay. Now, we were talking about this one 8 I think before we took that break' This is where it 9 said, "Bob Miller reports that the latest bulletin 10 on the use o f asbestos in joint cement and paint 11 products indicate we will not have to eliminate it 12 from our formulations immediately." 13 A. "However, it will be necessary for us to 14 provide proper respiration-type devices for men and 15 have lung x-rays made o f the workers at least once 16 each two years. Further information on this will be 17 put out to each of the manufacturing operations by 18 Bob Miller." 19 MS. HAAG: Object to the 20 nonresponsive portions. 21 Q. (By Mr. Coon) All right. Do you know as 22 a result o f this what was done by this group? Let 23 me ask first, who are these guys? Was there a 24 separate committee o f representatives of Kelly-Moore 25 that just dealt with these kind o f issues with Paco 1 A. So this was prior to even the industrial j 2 hygienist coming in to --this was right after all j 3 this started to surface. So, what they're passing j 4 on is information to the group that were j 5 responsible, this is what we know --we've heard j 6 this, but there is some --a lot of it kept changing 7 and kept getting added to. \ 8 Q. Sure. And as I read this, it said that -- j 9 I thought what was relevant here, where it said, we | 10 will not have to eliminate it - when we're talking 11 about asbestos says, we will not have to eliminate I 12 from our formulas immediately. Could you tell from j 13 that and other correspondence in your historical 14 review if they had reason to believe that there was ( 15 still going to be additional restrictions coming I 16 down the pipeline to where asbestos was going to 1 17 have to be excluded? 18 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 19 A. I can't read that into this. What I can j 20 read into this is there was a misinterpretation on i 21 what their requirements were originally, and they j 22 may have thought at a prior meeting that they had I 23 eliminated it entirely and since found out that was I 24 not the case. That's the only way I can interpret j 25 that, sir. [ Page 291 Page 293 j 1 after OSHA came out? 1 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. Earlier you also j 2 A. No. I can tell you Doug Miller -- or Doug 2 talked to us about the Johns-Manville program. And j 3 Merrill -- yeah, Doug Merrill was the chemist for 3 you talked about the notice that Kelly-Moore had, 1 4 the Paco products. Bob Miller is in charge of the 4 with respect to asbestos hazards. You talked about j 5 plants. Bill Moore owned the company. Dan Murphy, 5 OSHA and then the Johns-Manville program. j 6 I am not sure what --he had something to do with 6 A. Johns-Manville seminar? I 7 the plant. Walter Pickens was president o f Paco at 7 Q. Yes, sir. We have what's KM 1002 and 1 8 that time. 8 1014. This appears to be a cover letter, form 9 Q. Okay. 9 letter sent by Manville to the various customers 10 A. Okay? 10 advising them o f this program, and that there was a 1 11 Q. Was --could you tell from this that there 11 transcript available, and this was also in your 1 12 was an understanding or impression from the people 12 repository which is the transcript o f the symposium 1 13 involved, particularly from the reporting o f 13 itself, dated December 3 and 4 -- I 14 Mr. Merrill, that the first phase of the OSHA 14 A. Correct. 1 15 Regulations of 1972 were going to result in the 15 Q. -- 1973, titled, "Asbestos and Health 1 16 future with additional restrictions? 16 Presentation." And obviously that was a program 1 17 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 17 that was called pretty much just to discuss asbestos 1 18 A. I think the only way I can answer your 18 and its health ramifications. Do you know if there 1 19 question, your comment, is around this time, there 19 was -- I 20 was a whole bunch o f different information coming 20 A. Plus that same program, they talked about 1 21 down. And, in fact, I think if you look at this, it 21 the industry as a whole, and where they fit in -- I 22 says, "Lung x-rays made o f workers at least once 22 fit it into the industry, and duh, duh, duh as well. j 23 every two years." The final regulation said they 23 It was a multi-purpose meeting. j 24 had to be done every year. 24 Q. Do you know whether or not there were any 1 25 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Right. 25 attendees o f this program that were representatives 1 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 74 (Pages 290 to 293) 36766920-761c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 294 1 o f Kelly-Moore or Paco? 2 A. Doug Merrill. 3 Q. You understood Mr. Merrill actually 4 attended that program? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. And do you know where this program was 7 held? 8 A. Somewhere in San Francisco. 9 Q. So, we could pretty much presume that the 10 contents of this seminar, if the notes were all 11 taken accurately, were things that would have been 12 conveyed to Mr. Merrill as a result of being at the 13 meeting? 14 A. As I understand it, Mr. Merrill attended 15 the meeting, took notes, was able to --they handed 16 out some material for him to bring back. This 17 letter confirms his attendance, and the fact that 18 they are going to send out the transcripts, the hard 19 copies, from the meeting for his further review. 20 And that's what those are. 21 Q. Okay. Now, obviously if you -- have you 22 had an opportunity to read this, the transcript of 23 the symposium? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Okay. And you are aware that in it, it Page 296 1 contents of that thing, it also says that under 2 controlled environments it's --you continue -- that 3 it's safe to use the material. 4 Q. Under certain circumstances? 5 A. Under certain circumstances, correct. 6 Q. And we next go to September '74. This 7 appears to be additional internal memos. It's the 8 Paco production. I can't read it all. It said memo 9 or meeting. 10 MR. HAZEN: Brent, what's the number 11 on that one? 12 A. This is --oh, his number is --ours is 13 KM-47. And this is dated September 30 o f '74, and 14 it looks --it's got ME. I guess it meant Paco 15 production meetings. 16 Q. (By Mr. Coon) It talked about --I think 17 one of the things that was discussed here is the 18 potential for reformulating their product. 19 A. Yeah. You want me to read it? 20 Q. Yeah, if you don't mind. 21 A. Okay. Paragraph 3 says, "The change in 22 our acoustic formula using a different form of 23 asbestos instead of titanium has worked out very 24 well in our field tests. We have had no complaints 25 and some customers actually like it better. It has Page 295 1 talked about various health problems associated with 2 asbestos, which -- 3 A. Right. 4 Q. --included asbestosis, lung cancer and 5 mesothelioma? 6 A. I don't know if it mentions each --the 7 three of them, but it does talk about their - I 8 don't recall each three, but it does talk about 9 health issues, yes. 10 Q. Okay. I'll even point you to some pages, 11 Page 6 of the transcript specifically talking about 12 different disease categories. Do you understand 13 bronchogenic cancer to be lung cancer? 14 A. Right. .15 Q. Right? 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. And, of course, talks about mesothelioma 18 here, right? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. So we know that at least by late '73, 21 Mr. Merrill, as a senior spokesperson for 22 Kelly-Moore, is aware of these issues being caused 23 and associated to asbestos? 24 A. Those were brought up in that seminar 25 also, but I think if you read some of the other Page 297 1 resulted in a lower cost for us; therefore, it has 2 been agreed that we will make this change in the 3 formula and not indicate it on the bag. However, we 4 will be making some batches of the old material 5 until the present raw material supply is used up. 6 Because of this decrease in cost, we will not have 7 to" --I believe that word is --"increase the price 8 o f our acoustic." 9 I can't read those next two words. With an -- 10 something about the next price increase. 11 "This applies to 6373 B and L formulas only." 12 Q. Do you know who the provider was o f the 13 other types of asbestos that were being substituted? 14 A. They were testing the Union Carbide 15 product. 16 Q. And do you know what the purpose of 17 substituting these products were other than the 18 price? Appears that there was something that 19 triggered the substitute? 20 MR. NANTZ: Objection, form. 21 A. My understanding is that --that material 22 is being tested was the raw material that was being 23 promoted by Union Carbide at the time, provided a 24 few benefits. One being that it came with titanium 25 fused to the fiber. Normally most of the fiber you NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 75 (Pages 294 to 297) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bd Page 298 Page 300 j 1 buy, you got to put the asbestos in and then you put 2 titanium in. 3 What they were calling --I think it was HPO or 4 something - came with the fiber and titanium glued 5 onto it. You know, I'm not a technical person so 6 don't hold me to it. And as a result you also 7 didn't have to buy titanium and put in it, and they 8 also were saying that you would use less asbestos 9 because it was a higher, more-efficient-type fiber. 10 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. Next we have -- 11 MR. NANTZ: What was the number on 12 that? 13 MR. COON: 1051. This i s - - ours is 14 1063. 15 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. Next you got 1051. 16 This is the full content of a document we discussed 17 earlier. I'll be real brief with this. We 18 discussed this one here. This is the occupational 19 injuries and illnesses. We talked about the one 20 person indicated here in '74 as having a dust 21 disease. Do you remember that? 22 A. Indicated they thought they had a dust 23 disease, yes. 24 Q. And if we look back at the rest of this 25 attachment includes some additional forms, and 1 non-asbestos ceiling texture. That was ceiling j 2 texture formula that was developed back in '73. j 3 Q. So we now have a substitute for the j 4 ceiling that's a non-asbestos? j 5 A. Yes. We had that since '73. ! 6 Q. Okay. And the standard formula still j 7 contained a small percentage of asbestos apparently? | 8 A. In California. California, back in '75, j 9 regulated the amount o f asbestos that could be in -- 10 excuse me --spray-on material, ceiling textures. 11 And they -- they just came out and first said you 12 could have no more than one-half o f one percent. 13 Fortunately, the company had developed that 14 ceiling texture formula for California in '73, so | 15 the only thing that was really pushed by this was | 16 the wall texture issue. j 17 Q. All right. So you had a couple o f issues. 18 One was compliance with the OSHA regs that come out 1 19 in 1972, and then you still may have a 20 state-by-state compliance issue based on the 1 21 vagaries o f state law? 1 22 A. California -- 1 23 Q. California being one? 1 24 A. -- came out with their own regulations. | 25 Q. Sure? Q Page 299 Page 301 I 1 production manager -- 2 A. Can I clarify this? 3 Q. Sure, if you don't mind. 4 A. When you showed this to me, I didn't 5 remember, but I hadn't seen this until recently. 6 There was an indication with a worker in the plant, 7 by the name o f Bowers. I can't think of his first 8 name. Martin Bowers maybe. I don't know. 9 Something like that. And the x-ray indicated that 10 there was a spot, and it was determined that the 11 spot was not caused by asbestos. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. And that's maybe what this is. Okay? 14 Q. And would the person signing off there 15 have been production manager at that particular -- 16 A. Doug Merrill. 17 Q. Okay. That's Doug? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Next we have a series I think of three or 20 four documents. This one is KM 1110, prior KM 21 Number 5327. This was from Doug Merrill again to 22 Bill Freeman. It's dated June 27,1975. And there 23 are three or four letters there, memos. 24 A. Okay. This one is addressing the fact 25 that he is sending him some material of a 1 A. That's correct. And what he's saying here 2 is we had this non-asbestos product that we can make 3 for you, try this formula. See if it works with 4 your people. But there was also the asbestos 5 product that was available in other plants outside 6 o f California, because it was still ~ you know, it 7 was satisfactory to go ahead and make it. 8 Q. You could use it in states other than 9 California? 10 A. You sure could. 11 Q. Okay. But it was something that 1 12 California statutes had precluded use of? 1 13 A. In June or July o f '75, California said 1 14 that you could not put --have sprayed products, J 15 spray texture products that had more than one-half 1 16 of one percent o f asbestos in it. 17 Q. Right. 18 A. In July o f '76, that went to zero. 19 Q. And that was pursuant to - 20 A. Total. 21 Q. Well, we have got a copy o f the statute 22 here but I don't think we need to reference it. 23 You had July o f '75, when California passes its 24 law -- | 25 A. Right. j NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 76 (Pages 298 to 301) 36766920-761c-11d6-8c1c-00045a4bdea7 Page 302 Page 304 ; 1 Q. --the amount of asbestos typically in 2 your products at that time was still running about 3 five or six percent, was it not? 4 A. This is only addressing spray textures. 5 Q. Right. 6 A. You have to keep in mind that we had a 7 non-asbestos ceiling texture that was being sold in 8 California at the time very successfully. 9 Q. Right. 10 A. S o - 11 Q. But you also had the asbestos-containing 12 product line that was still marketed as well? 13 A. We had the wall texture product. This 14 only addresses the textures. 15 Q. Right. And my understanding was, though, 16 is that you had two different product lines. You had 17 an asbestos-containing product and you had a 18 non-asbestos-containing product that were used for 19 the same purpose, as of 1975? 20 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 21 A. Yeah. That --that could be, yes, because 22 the ceiling texture was non and asbestos containing. 23 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Right. So you now had two 24 product lines, one that complied with the general 25 OSHA regulations --actually both did in '75. The 1 A. Immediately. 2 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 3 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. And after they 4 addressed those problems, they were able to still 5 make the product and stay within compliance of the 6 OSHA limits on exposure in the workplace? | 7 A. Uh-huh. | 8 Q. Okay. Correct? I 9 A. Uh-huh. | 10 Q. And so that enabled them to continue to 11 make the product with asbestos in it for use in * 12 whatever states they wanted to sell it in, correct, 1 13 except for California? f 14 A. Well, in --California in '75 decided that I 15 they were going to eliminate that in any spray-on ! 16 products to begin with -- | 17 Q. Right. j 18 A. --so --but up until that point, yes, we | 19 complied in the way we made the product according to 20 the federal requirements. i 21 Q. Okay. So after 1976 when California had a s 22 complete ban on those products that contained ] 23 asbestos, you were still able to manufacture it with j 24 asbestos for sale in some states and have an < 25 asbestos-free product for California, as well as > Page 303 l Page 305 ; i 1 asbestos-containing and the non-asbestos-containing, 1 anybody else that wanted it? j 2 still met the OSHA limits on usage? 2 A. Yeah. Well, it's - the interesting part ) 3 A. I'm getting a little confused, because 3 of that California law, California addressed the 4 OSHA addressed the workplace and the amount of fiber 4 application of the product. They said you could not | 5 that was basically released. 5 apply a product in 1976 that contained any amount of j 6 Q. Okay. 6 asbestos in the spray textures. They did not say | 7 A. Okay? 7 you could not manufacture it, nor did they say you I 8 Q. And you could make the product in 8 could not sell it. 1 9 colnpliance with OSHA -- 9 Q. Sure. j 10 A. That's correct. 10 A. The contractor could not apply it. ^ 11 Q. --with asbestos? 11 Q. Right. And you were still making this 12 A. Yes, sir. 12 product in California, you just could not use it in 1 13 Q. With the five or six percent, with the 13 California? 14 additional things you did rotating employees, 14 A. That is correct. j 15 putting in ventilators, stuff like that, you were 15 Q. And you could sell it to other places? I { 16 able to get the counts down to continue making the 16 guess you could still sell it in California, you j 17 products, right? 17 just couldn't use it in California, right? | 18 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 18 A. It could not be applied. | 19 A. I don't know if I can answer --I don't 19 Q. Yeah, but you could sell it to somebody in t 20 know if I would put it in those words or not. 20 California -- j 21 Q. (By Mf. Coon) Okay. Well, we know that 21 A. Sure. ] 22 in 1972 when Liberty Mutual came out and inspected 22 Q. - they just couldn't use it? 23 the plants, they said here is the problem. And to 23 A. In theory you could have. We didn't. 1 24 address the problem, we saw the memos where they 24 Q. No good for them to buy it if they can't j 25 took certain steps to address that. 25 use it, right? 1 ..i................. ....--!...-si M.. ,..... 77 (Pages 302 to 305) NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea Page 306 1 Page 308 j 1 A. There was a heavy demand by people for the 2 old product. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. But -- 5 Q. But -- 6 A. The asbestos-free product, the ceiling 7 product that we were --had selling was very 8 successful, was well accepted in California so -- 9 Q. Ijust want to make sure we understand 10 something though. California was making -- your 11 California facility was making the spray-on product 12 with asbestos in it, after California had a ban on 13 using those same products in California? 14 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 15 A. I can't say that they actually did. They 16 could have, but I don't know if, in fact, they did. 17 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. Which facility was 18 making the spray-on product? 19 A. Whatever --well, Hurst. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. Right here in Texas. 22 Q. We're talking --wasn't one o f the 23 California facilities still making it? 24 A. In'85? 25 Q. No, sir, '76. 1 Different regions of the country preferred different 2 types of products. We were in the effort of trying j 3 to get all of those other products converted to meet j 4 the requirements o f those various contractors. | 5 So, there was a difference in how the product j 6 was used or accepted in different markets. So, to \ 7 keep in mind is, however, that formulas that were j 8 developed in the California deal, any material that f 9 would have come out of that California facility, I 10 would have come out at less than one-half of one I 11 percent at the most. j 12 Q. Okay. Well, the way I read this, the 1 13 attached memo was that in the other markets, like in j 14 Tulsa, people were trying to get the non-asbestos j 15 ceiling texture and couldn't get it from you guys. | 16 A. No, that's not true. j 17 Q. Here. I 18 MR. HAZEN: What document are you j 19 referring to, Mr. Giffins? I 20 THE WITNESS: He's referring to KM BB I 21 5328. This is dated November 12th, 1975. And I -- 22 the first paragraph states, "In June of this year, j 23 Bill Freeman, Tulsa, requested a non-asbestos 1 24 product to be available to him since he was losing I 25 business on jobs that stated no asbestos. In early I Page 307 Page 309 j 1 A. I mean '76? Ontario closed down, what? 2 In '111 3 Q. Uh-huh. 4 A. We have to go back and look at his record, 5 but I -- he --they may have been -- they may have 6 converted to --to the non-asbestos product. But it 7 would have been --up until '76, San Carlos and 8 Ontario could have made it. But after '76, they 9 probably did not, because there was the acceptance 10 o f the -- of the ceiling texture product was 11 accepted well in the California markets. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. It was not accepted well in the other 14 markets. 15 Q. They were able to go ahead and phase out 16 and go into the transition o f non-asbestos for 17 California? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. Why did Kelly-Moore not go ahead and phase 20 out that same product with asbestos in it in all the 21 other states where the law had not precluded them 22 from selling it yet? 23 A. Well, as that indicates, that particular 24 letter to Bill Freeman, that there were some samples 25 being sent to him. Now, he was in Oklahoma. 1 July, 56 backs o f non-asbestos ceiling texture were 1 2 sent to him for testing. Upon his approval o f this 1 3 material, Wayne Harp made a batch at Hurst and sent 1 4 it to Tulsa. It is not --it is my understanding [ 5 nothing has been done beyond the testing of this 6 product." 1 7 The free products were sent to Tulsa for 1 8 his testing and acceptance by his customers. So he 1 9 had asked for a non-asbestos product because of 1 10 specifications. And was in the process of that - - 1 I 11 interpret that as in the process o f evaluating. j 12 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. Let's get to the j 13 next one, June '75. This one is KM 1235. This 1 14 appeared to be the airborne fiber counts at the Paco I 15 facility at Los Gatos. Where would that be? 1 16 A. Los Gatos, California? It's a town south j 17 of San Carlos. I 18 Q. Okay. I had not recalled us talking about | 19 that as being one o f the Paco manufacturing 1 20 facilities? I 21 A. It's not. That was a test. That was one 1 22 of the tests that was -- it was done in 1975, for I 23 two reasons. 1 24 Q. Okay. But it said the test is at --for 1 25 Paco's at Los Gatos? 1 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 78 (Pages 306 to 309) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1c-00045a4bdea7 Page 310 Page 312 1 A. Paco product at Los Gatos is a city, town, 2 and it was done on new construction, new houses. 3 Q. Okay. So, they went out to where one of 4 the Paco jobs was taking place? 5 A. They went out to a job site where houses 6 were being built and used Paco products on those, 7 that is correct. 8 Q. Got it. And then the --the summary and 9 fiber count speaks for itself when you look at the 10 airborne fiber counts, I guess, at the third and 11 fourth pages, in terms of - 12 A. May I look at it, please? 13 Q. Sure. Do you know what the purpose of 14 going out to actually do a field study of the - 15 A. Sure do. 16 Q. -- asbestos product release would have 17 been? 18 A. Sure do. 19 Q. What was that? 20 A. First o f all, to further evaluate the 21 Union Carbide product that we talked about earlier, 22 that was discussed in 1974. The fiber that had the 23 titanium glued to it. 24 Q. Right. 25 A. And also to evaluate the fiber - level of 1 A. I - - 1can't tell, sir. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. But they're the same letter. 4 Q. Okay. It looks like there were comments 5 about - this was to Doug Merrill from Michael Love. 6 Mr. Love was a senior loss prevention representative 7 for Liberty Mutual? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. And he provides an analysis of certain 10 issues with respect to their asbestos survey report? 11 MR. HAZEN: Document number, Mr. 12 Giffins? 13 THE WITNESS: It's KMX 00577. 14 Q. (By Mr. Coon) And it talks about the 15 interest in removing asbestos from all the products? 16 A. Correct. He's talking about our interest 17 in --to remove asbestos from all our products, 18 correct. 19 Q. And this is back in '75, December of '75? 20 A. '75. Correct. 21 Q. And then if you look at the two letters, I 22 guess the question was, there --this letter we have 23 a copy of, it doesn't have any notes on it, and then 24 this copy has two through five, embraced in a 25 bracket, with a compliance and question mark. Do Page 3 1 1 Page 313 1 the airborne fiber count of our products. And of 2 the --o f the ceiling products I should say. And so 3 this was --this test was against the Union Carbide 4 material, and I believe at that time it was Canadian 5 --Carey-Canadian. 6 Q. Okay. And -- 7 A. And by the way, on those levels, I think 8 they were all below the requirement at the time. It 9 was five. What is --they're all below five, I 10 believe. 11 THE REPORTER: Give me just a 12 second. 13 MR. COON: Ready? 14 THE REPORTER: Ready. 15 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. Next, we have a 16 December '75, this appears to be another industrial 17 hygiene study. I take it that Liberty Mutual would 18 still come out from time to time to determine what 19 the dust count levels were in the plants? 20 A. On a regular basis, yes. 21 Q. Okay. We also have an August 15 report 22 that may be part of that. Is that part of that? 23 A. These are both the same letter. 24 Q. Okay. One copy somebody has written on, 25 the other copy looks like it was the file copy? 1 you know what that meant? 2 A. Somebody's highlighted it. 3 Q. Do they know whether or not at this time 4 that these things that were supposed to be taking 5 place were, in fact, occurring, like making sure 6 operators wore respirators and things like that? 7 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 8 A. If they read the letter December 10th, 9 1975, Number 2 says - well, Number 1 says, "Present 10 local exhaust to be totally inadequate on one of the 11 baggers." Okay. So, that was highlighted. 12 Somebody highlighted that for some reason. 13 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Right. 14 A. "Continue to provide the operator on the 15 dry texture bagger with coveralls. This is required 16 to prevent the worker from bringing asbestos home on 17 his clothing. Continue" --and this is talking 18 about continuing this, not implementing this, 19 continuing. 20 Q. Right. 21 A. "Continue to emphasize that all operators 22 must wear appropriate dust masks." 23 MS. HAAG: Objection to the 24 nonresponsive. 25 Q. (By Mr. Coon) This actually brings up NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 79 (Pages 310 to 313) Page 314 ? Page 316 1 something here, too. When I'm talking about two, I 2 don't guess we have to read all o f them from a time 3 standpoint, but we talked earlier about the clothing 4 issue. 5 A. Right. 6 Q. And if you look at this, it says, they 7 were requiring coveralls to prevent the worker from 8 bringing asbestos home on his clothing. So 9 apparently there was an awareness. Remember we 10 talked about that earlier? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. About maybe bringing some o f it home? 13 A. And it does say continue. 14 Q. Yeah. 15 A. Which means it was implemented. 16 Q. And these are the types o f things that 17 were implemented to comply with OSHA mandates in 18 '72? 19 A. Uh-huh. 20 MS. HAAG: Object to form. 21 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. Next we have-- 22 we're up t o '76. In February o f '76, we got another 23 one. This is correspondence back to Mr. Love, as 24 Liberty Mutual loss prevention representative? 25 MR. HAZEN: Document number, 1 to get asbestos out. 2 Q. And then we go to February o f 76, this is 3 from Hughland Brinkley. To Hughland Brinkley from 4 Mr. Merrill. Did you know Mr. Brinkley? 5 A. Let's see, who does he work for? 6 MR. HAZEN: Number please? 7 THE WITNESS: Number KM-117, 8 Plaintiffs Exhibit. 9 MR. COON: Ours is 1055. 10 MR. HAZEN: Thanks. 11 A. No, I did not know him, but he was j 12 evidently the director of enforcement for the Bay 1 13 Area Air Pollution Control District. j 14 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. g 15 A. So, he would have been an EPA-type person. 1 16 Q. And what was the purpose of that letter? 17 A. To reconfirm - let's see, "Please be I 18 advised that we use asbestos in the course of our 1 19 operation, which may be considered an emission j 20 source under Regulation 8, Emission Standards for 1 21 Hazardous Pollutants." 1 22 He's advising the governmental agencies in San j 23 Francisco that we are using asbestos, and that they 1 24 needed to be aware it may fit under Regulation 8 .1 I 25 think he's being right up front telling them, come I Page 315 Page 317 j 1 Mr. Giffins. 2 A. It's--w ell--oh , KM-116. 3 Well, that's Plaintiffs Exhibit. Is that okay? 4 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Ours is 1053. 5 MR. HAZEN: Thank you. 6 A. And this is captioned "Asbestos Handling 7 Recommendations for San Carlos Factory." 8 Q. (By Mr. Coon) This is the one in 9 California, correct? 10 A. That is correct. 11 Q. And it talks first paragraph, "In reply to 12 your letter," which is the letter from Mr. Love, 13 correct? 14 A. This is from Doug Merrill to Mr. Love, who 15 is the senior representative of Liberty Mutual. 16 Q. Yeah. 17 A. And he says, "In reply to your letter of 18 December 10th, 1975,1 would like to report that we 19 have now been successful in eliminating asbestos 20 completely from our texture products. We are 21 continuing our work along this line on joint 22 compound products." 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. As I said, between 72 and ' l l , there were 25 236 formulas that they worked on to rework that -- 1 out and take a look. 1 2 Q. Okay. j 3 THE WITNESS: Can I take a break? 4 MR. COON: Sure. | 5 THE WITNESS: My bladder is about 6 ready to -- plus I - 1 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going o ff the I 8 record at 6:15. 9 (A recess was taken.) 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the 11 record. Time is 6:22. 12 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Next we have 1127. 13 Mr. Giffins, we have a March 18, '76 letter from 14 Liberty Mutual to the Denver facility o f Kelly-Moore 15 --it's one we talked about earlier - that made 16 Paco products, correct? 17 A. Yes, they made joint compounds. 1 18 Q. Okay. And we had industrial hygiene study j 19 for that facility showed - - 1 can go back here to 1 20 page --let me see the reports. Okay. Here is our 1 21 reports o f findings. The range was from one to five | 22 fibers per milliliter in the areas they tested. j 23 A. Excuse me, can I see this a minute? | 24 Q. Sure. 1 25 A. Okay. 1 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 80 (Pages 314 to 317) 36766920-761c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 318 * Page 320 ; 1 Q. Okay. And I think at that time, the OSHA 2 standard was still at five? 3 A. No. This was dated in March o f '76. 4 Q. Oh, it's gone down to two? 5 A. Two. I believe that's correct. Q. So, do you know what was addressed at that 6> 7 facility with respect to trying to get back into 8 compliance with the reduction of the OSHA 9 permissible level from five to two? 10 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 11 A. No, I don't. Wait, I have to go back and 12 read that in total. 13 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. 14 A. And then the follow-up report. 15 Q. I think this - - okay. Is there an 16 attachment to this that shows what they did? 17 A. I don't know. I need to see the whole 18 thing. 19 Q. W e ll- 20 A. San Carlos. 21 Q. Okay. There is another attachment then. 22 Could this have been a separate inspection? 23 A. This was conducted in January o f '76. 24 Q. Right. 25 A. "Per conversation, you indicate that this 1 A. As I said earlier, there were inspections 2 done in this as a result of --in line with OSHA's 3 requirements but that did not preclude that there \ 4 were not inspections by these people prior to the 5 OSHA deal. 6 Q. Okay. Next we had a document dated July j 7 15, '76. This is Document 1118. It's dated July j 8 15, 1976, from the National Resource Defenses 9 Council. Are you familiar with that organization? 10 A. I have seen --I have seen this, yes, sir. | 11 MR. HAZEN: What's that KM number, f 12 please? ; 13 A. KM BB 5428. 1 14 Q. (By Mr. Coon) It talked about increased | 15 risk of cancer from working around drywall repairs, i 16 and I want to ask you a couple of questions on that. i 17 The products that were made by Paco, sheetrock : 18 repairs, or for sheetrock, tape and floating and j 19 things like that, could those be used for repairs as J 20 well as for new construction? { 21 A. Uh-huh. Sure could. j 22 Q. Do you know whether or not any testing was * 23 done by Kelly-Moore in houses or remodeling or < 24 something that was taking place just to see, as an 25 example, what would happen if you were removing the ; 1 Page 319 s Page 321 ! 1 department was closed down, all operations, April 2 first o f '76." 3 Q. As for the Denver facility, correct? 4 A. That is correct. 5 Q. But you have an attachment back here -- 6 A. All right. This is the --this is the 7 findings, the survey, and -- 8 Q. And the numbers we just discussed? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. And I had all this as one document but is 11 there a separate industrial hygiene study of the San 12 Carlos, California facility? 13 A. Well, this says San Carlos. I don't know 14 how that got to be on there. 15 Q. I don't either, but it appears there was a 16 separate study of the San Carlos facility, same kind 17 of deal, industrial -- 18 A. Well, would have because it was done on a 19 regular basis. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. Okay. So, you had a number of these that 23 went on from the time OSHA was implemented in '72 24 for the duration of time they continued to make 25 asbestos products at the various Paco facilities? 1 old sheetrock, or the old tapes and floats? 1 2 A. I don't think there was testing. I really 3 don't recall. I really don't. I am very --I am ? 4 familiar with the Los Gatos test. j 5 Q. There was some with respect to new ) 6 construction? j 7 A. That is correct. j 8 Q. Okay. | 9 A. Now, --okay. Fair enough. 1 10 Q. Okay. Next we had another memo here. | 11 This one is BB 5463. It's ours, 1161. This was j 12 dated October '76, again from Mr. Merrill. And this 1 13 was to Frank Scaggs? 1 14 A. Scaggs. He was the -- I believe the 5 15 district sales manager for the Northwest at that j 16 time, for the Seattle/Portland, Oregon area. | 17 Subject is non-asbestos ceiling texture. J 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. And it's KM BB 5463. f 20 Q. Okay. Basically talks about one | 21 acknowledgment that they have asbestos-free product - 22 in California, Hawaii and Utah for the customers i 23 there, correct? ji 24 A. It says, "We have all of our California, | 25 Hawaii, Utah customers using our non-asbestos ? NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713)861-0203 81 (Pages 318 to 321) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 322 Page 324 1 ceiling texture products." 2 Q. Right. Now, we talked about California. 3 Did Hawaii and Utah have the same type of ban as 4 California? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Do you know why they had the Hawaii - why 7 they --why Kelly-Moore had Hawaii and Utah on a 8 non-asbestos ceiling texture along with California? 9 A. Again, it was -- would have been a 10 customer preference at the time. 11 Q. Okay. Just a matter o f converting the 12 customers in those states to asbestos-free? 13 A. Have you ever dealt with a painting 14 contractor when you try to give them something new? 15 It's not that easy. 16 Q. Okay. So, the -- the Hawaii and Utah 17 customers were a little more pliable? 18 A. Evidently. Now, the thing that I think is 19 important about this letter is he's writing Frank 20 Scaggs in Seattle and telling him, hey, we have 21 these products available, and even though state 22 agencies in the northwest have not taken a strong 23 stand on asbestos, I am sure that day will come. 24 So, he's taken the initiative to let him know 25 that he better try to do something about getting 1 A. I believe I have seen this, but I ~ it's ! 2 just not coming right up on the register now. 1 3 Q. (By Mr. Coon) I didn't see an IH study 4 that was precipitating this. Do you know whether or 5 not there was any particular industrial hygiene 1 6 study done by Liberty Mutual or someone else that 7 lists " 8 A. This was done by OSHA. This is in \ 9 response to an OSHA inspection. 1 10 Q. So we know that OSHA came out and did an J 11 inspection, found a number o f failings and this is a j 12 memo that resulted? 1 13 A. OSHA - I 14 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. Go 1 15 ahead. I 16 A. OSHA had complete -- they governed the S 17 workplace so they could go into any plant they want. I 18 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Do you know what would have j 19 precipitated the Visit from OSHA? 1 20 A. No, generally they show up on - whenever 1 21 they want. 22 Q. Okay. One o f the comments here, the 23 recommendations, was to again reduce or eliminate 1 24 asbestos content in the ceiling texture. So, they 1 25 were still making ceiling texture with asbestos at 1 Page 323 Page 325 1 them converted to the non-asbestos product. To me 1 the Hurst facility at that time? 2 that's the important part o f that letter. 2 A. Yes. They could have. That's what they 3 Q. Okay. They anticipate the other states 3 explained, and he's suggesting they use SWP, I 4 reacting in a manner similar to California and 4 believe. I 5 banning asbestos products? 5 Q. And do you know when they -- did they 1 6 A. No, I think they anticipated that the deal 6 eventually convert to an SWP? 7 on asbestos would get even stronger and that was 7 A. SWP was tried. I don't know when it -- 8 dated in what? '75? 8 how --there, but it was --stuff didn't work as 9 Q. Yeah. '76. 9 well. 10 A. 76, yes. 10 Q. Okay. They did eventually convert to 11 Q. And again, encouragement to shift to 11 something that was asbestos free, correct? 1 12 non-asbestos ceiling textures? 12 A. No, they stopped making it. 1 13 A. Correct. 13 Q. Okay. Just stopped making it - 1 14 Q. And next we have October 19, 7 6 another 14 A. Yes, sir. 1 15 Paco Textures memo, Doug Merrill. This one is to 15 Q. -- at the Hurst facility? 1 16 Wayne Harp. And it talks about asbestos exposure 16 A. That was dated what, 76? 1 17 problems at Hurst. Now, Hurst was the Texas 17 Q. Right. So you just quit making it at the 1 18 facility, right? 18 Hurst facility? I 19 A. That is correct. 19 A. Yes, sir. J 20 Q. Have you seen that document before? 20 Q. But it was still being made asbestos free J 21 MR. HAZEN: Document number, 21 elsewhere, in California? Didn't y'all continue to 1 22 Mr. Giffins, please. 22 make ceiling texture? j 23 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry KB - KM 23 A. We did -- would you ask me that question 1 24 BB 5743. 24 again? 1 25 MR. COON: It's our Document 1130. 25 Q. Sure. Did you continue to make ceiling I NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 82 (Pages 322 to 325) 36766920-761C-11d6-8c1c-00045a4bdea7 Page 326 Page 328 1 texture after the late '70s? 2 A. Where? 3 Q. Anywhere. Did any of your facilities make 4 Paco ceiling texture? 5 A. When you say late '70s, are you talking 6 1 prior to '77, or are you talking after '77? 7 Q. Well, even at this time in '76, where were 8 they making - were they making any Paco 9 asbestos-free ceiling texture? 10 A. In California. 11 Q. Right. 12 A. And they may have been making some there, 13 but they were also making non -- they were also 14 making the asbestos one. 15 Q. And how long did they continue to make an 16 asbestos-free ceiling texture at any facility? 17 A. How long? 18 Q. Sure. 19 A. Probably until we shut the operations down 20 in 1982. 21 Q. Okay. Okay. This is another one. This 22 is dated January 27, '77. 23 Counsel, 1050. 24 Another one from Mr. Merrill. This is to Dean 25 Pohlenz. Where does Mr. Pohlenz work at? 1 "Harrison's & Crosfield Pacific Inc." It's dated 2 November 9, 77. It's an invoice date. 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. It indicated that a load o f 480 bags of 5 asbestos -- 6 A. HPO. 7 Q. --was shipped to Paco Textures in San 8 Carlos, California, correct? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. And down here at the bottom it says, "For 11 resale." 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. Do you know who they would have resold 14 that to, or what that meant? 15 A. They were the local distributor for Union 16 Carbide. 17 Q. That company was? 18 A. That was, yes. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. And when they sent --you send anything to 21 a manufacturer who is going to reuse that raw 22 material in a product that they then sell, they do 23 not charge a sales tax, and that's what the purpose 24 of this --I assume it's for resale because that 25 normally is what shows up on invoices where the Page 327 Page 329 1 A. Dean worked in Hurst, I believe. This is 2 monitoring of asbestos exposure, dated January of 3 '77. 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. It is my understanding that Continental 6 Insurance Company will do outside testing for 7 asbestos exposure. They're located duh, duh, duh, 8 duh, Dallas. Phone number is such and such. Please 9 call them and have the Paco plant checked after the 10 modification to the baggers has been completed. 11 Q. Okay. Was this a follow-up to the 12 previous OSHA inspection at that facility? 13 A. I would have believed so. This is January 14 o f 77. It refers to OSHA will run the test. 15 Q. And what else did it say? 16 A. He says, "But I'm afraid they may spot 17 something else." 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. I think that was more tongue-in-cheek than 20 anything. 21 Q. I am going through some o f these I think 22 that we don't need to ask about, in mind of the 23 hour. 24 Okay. I had a question on this one. This one 25 is KM BB 0386, our number is 1159. It says, 1 product is going to be used in manufacture, or to be 2 resold. 3 Q. Do you know whether or not in this set of 4 circumstances, Paco just resold the same asbestos 5 provided to them from Harrison's elsewhere? 6 A. I don't know that. 7 Q. Would they have been using asbestos in 8 that quantity in 1977 at the San Carlos facility? 9 A. How. many bags? 10 Q. 480. 11 A. Yeah. Sure. 12 Q. Okay. Was this for the -- 13 A. Now, you have to remember this is that 14 material that --what's the date on this again? 15 Q. 11-77. 16 A. Let me see. I can't read. My eyes are 17 getting -- failing me. 18 Q. Yeah. 19 A. When you get past 63, things start to 20 happen. 21 Q. November 9, 1977, Mr. Giffins. 22 A. This was the material that was tested in 23 part in the Los Gatos testing. 24 Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not 25 Kelly-Moore, through any of its Paco divisions, ever NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 83 (Pages 326 to 329) 36766920-761c-11d6-8c1c-00045a4bdea7 Page 330 Page 332 1 did resell the asbestos that they had bought in bulk 2 for use in the various Paco or Paco products? 3 A. I'm not aware o f that and I don't believe 4 they did that. Well, again, I'm not aware o f it. 5 Q. Okay. Here is one. This is 1169, dated 6 January 16, '78, from Mr. Wiseman to 7 Mr. Stubb, acknowledges the Hurst plant has ceased 8 production o f asbestos-containing materials for 9 Paco. 10 A. That's KM BB 4991. 11 MR. HAZEN: Thank you. 12 A. Subject, production o f non-asbestos Paco 13 products, and the Hurst plant has ceased the 14 production o f asbestos-containing products for Paco, 15 with the exception o f texture paints and ceiling 16 paint --and ceiling texture. 17 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Now, was that in response 18 to the additional changes with OSHA regulating 19 further restrictions on the use o f asbestos 20 products? 21 A. Well, as you recall, we decided in '77 not 22 to make -- to get out o f the asbestos business. 23 Q. Right. 24 A. Texture paints were excluded from OSHA and 25 EPA. They were not part of that ban. So we were 1 who the person that signed that -- Mr. Stubbs? 2 A. Svend Stubb, yes. 3 Q. And that was to Mr. Moore? 4 A. That is correct. 5 Q. President o f the company still? 6 A. I - yes, sir. 7 Q. Okay. And it said, "The ban on the 8 manufacture o f asbestos-containing joint compounds 9 is now in effect." And they're talking about The 10 Consumer Products Commission ban? 11 A. Consumer Products Safety Commission ban. 12 That is correct. 13 Q. "Our plants manufacture only asbestos-lfee 14 formulas now." Right? 15 A. On joint compounds. 16 Q. Right. Says, "We now have less than six 17 months to dispose of asbestos-containingjoint 18 compounds in stock at our stores." 19 A. That is correct. "A recent inventory o f 20 all stores showed current stock o f 21 asbestos-containing material to be 282,000 pounds of 22 Dry Powder, and 7,580 containers of Ready-Mix. We 23 plan to take another store inventory on 4-1-78 and 24 then make plans for disposing of any 25 asbestos-containing material left in stock." Page 331 1 still able to make those products. What he's saying 2 here is that we are out of the production of 3 asbestos in the joint compounds, but we're going to 4 --with the exception of the texture paints, and 5 ceiling texture, which was excluded from either 6 OSHA, or the Consumer Products Safety Commission 7 ban, they were going to continue to make those 8 products. 9 Q. Okay. Now, the Consumer Products Safety 10 ban took effect, what was that, January of '78? 11 A. Yes. No. July o f -- 12 Q. July o f '77? 13 A. I think it was July o f '78. No, June. 14 They --they put the ban out effective January the 15 12th, I believe, o f '78, and said you could no 16 longer make it and distribute it. But you had six 17 months from that point on to --the stores had that 18 time to sell out their inventory, which took you 19 through June or July o f '78. 20 Q. Okay. And I don't have those particular 21 consumer documents in front of me, I don't believe, 22 but I did want to make sure I understood something. 23 And that takes us to the next document. This is 24 1233. It's dated January 23, '78, another 25 Kelly-Moore memo. This one is from --can you tell Page 333 1 The ban said --so there was no hardship on 2 manufacturers, or the retailers, the ban said, you 3 cannot make it after 12th o f January, but any that's 4 in the field, any that's out in commerce can be 5 disposed o f up through June of '78. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. June 16,1think, o f '78. 8 MR. HAZEN: Brent, at this time I 9 think we have already exceeded the limit. What I'd 10 like you to do for me is let's take five minutes 11 break, maybe look at your documents, tell me how 12 much longer you think you need. 13 MR. COON: I need about an hour but 14 I can wrap up in a couple minutes. 15 MR. HAZEN: You want to take a 16 minute to look at them and peruse them, and that way 17 maybe we can -- you can -- 18 MR. COON: I'd ratherjust go 19 through them. 20 MR. HAZEN: Determine what you need. 21 MR. COON: I think we can just go 22 right forward. If you want to go ahead, you're 23 welcome to. 24 MR. HAZEN: Why don't we just take a 25 couple min --maybe two or three minutes. NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 84 (Pages 330 to 333) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 334 Page 336 \ 1 MR. COON: That's fine. 2 MR. HAZEN: Maybe that will speed it 3 -- you can take a look at it, make sure of the ones 4 you want to cover and then we will come back and we 5 will talk about how much longer you need. 6S MR. COON: That's fine. 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the 8 record at 6:42. 9 (A recess was taken.) 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the 11 record. The time is 6:48. 12 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Mr. Giffms, we have 13 Document 1091. This is December 22, '77, a letter 14 from Mr. Myers, as marketing manager, to Doug 15 Merrill. But it basically talks about the ban 16 taking place from the Consumer Safety folks, I 17 believe? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Wasn't that from the Consumer Products 20 Safety Commission? 21 A. No, it was about that --it's from 22 Mr. Myers, marketing manager for Calidria Asbestos, 23 which would have been Union Carbide. 24 Q. Okay. And it just kind of gets them up to 25 speed on the ban, and the language contained in the 1 hearing procedure. This involves the following j 2 steps. This was dated in May of 1977, which talked j 3 about the proposal. ! 4 MR. HAZEN: The document number j 5 please? j 6 THE WITNESS: Document number is KMX I 7 01964. | 8 MR. HAZEN: The first one there. : 9 THE WITNESS: You want his? { 10 MR. HAZEN: Yes. 11 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry. KMX ; 12 01963 is ours. j 13 MR. COON: Scott, ours is 1093. j 14 MR. HAZEN: Okay. 1093. ! 15 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. So anyway, we could ; 16 go back through some of these other documents and \ 17 see a line of letters from Union Carbide to f 18 Kelly-Moore that was apprising them of the --or | 19 keeping them updated with respect to the proposals 5 20 with the ban? | 21 MR. NANTZ: Objection. \ 22 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. ] 23 A. That last letter had to do with the 24 proposal, talking about the proposal. And then the 25 following letter in December indicated that this is 1 Page 335 Page 337 j I 1 ban, and how it would relate to some of the product 1 what the proposal was --how it was finalized. \ 2 lines? 2 That's how I interpret those letters. ' 3 A. He's saying because o f the extensive 3 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Sure. May says - j 4 publicity and since we have attempted to keep many 4 MR. NANTZ: Objection, j 5 o f you directly informed, okay, we're going to give 5 nonresponsive. 1 6 you this information, and it's --and it talks about 6 Q. (By Mr. Coon) --here is what they're | 7 the ban. 7 proposing; December letter says here is what the ban j 8 Q. Okay. And the ban had actually been 8 actually is now that the statute is done, complete. 1 9 proposed for some period of time before it actually 9 We know what we're dealing with? f 10 took place, right, all through '76, '77? 10 MR. NANTZ: Objection, form. j 11 A. Yeah. This is dated December 22nd, and 11 A. That's how I interpret it, yes. | 12 the ban for manufacturing took place the following 12 Q. (By Mr. Coon) And it advised that there j 13 --took about two weeks later, 15, 20 days, was to 13 was going to be a ban on shipping certain products | 14 go in effect after that. 14 manufactured after January '78, and then you j 15 Q. Right. But -- 15 couldn't sell them after June '78,1 think is what j 16 A. We already were well aware. 16 you testified to the earlier? j 17 Q. Yeah, they were well aware. In fact, I 17 A. That's what I indicated earlier, yes. ! 18 had other documents I haven't gone back to with you, 18 MR. NANTZ: Objection, form. I 19 but there was correspondence back in May o f '77 19 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. So that's j 20 discussing those same issues in this document, I 20 consistent with the language of the ban? 1 21 think 1093. Again, same type o f information, isn't 21 MR. NANTZ: Objection, form. | 22 it, just keeping everyone abreast o f what had and 22 A. (Indicating.) 1 23 had not been banned and what the Consumer Product 23 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Now, we were talking about [ 24 Safety Commission was working on? 24 after the ban took place, which is after the statute f 25 A. This is talking about the proposal and 25 is passed, the memos of Kelly-Moore in the following i 1 i t NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 85 (Pages 334 to 337) Page 338 Page 340 f 1 spring and summer, which is, how did they deal with 1 purpose of the ban, was it not? j 2 the products that were now subject to the ban? 2 A. There was a concern about that product, | 3 And so that I'll understand, when the Consumer 3 and the effect when sanding it, yes. 4 Products Safety Commission came out with the ban on 4 Q. Okay. And nonetheless, as I understand, 5 some product lines, it impacted Kelly-Moore with 5 even though these findings were made, and the ban 1 6 respect to some Paco product lines? 6 was put into place, Kelly-Moore did abide by that 1 7 A. The joint compounds. 7 law by discontinuing the manufacture of an 8 Q. The joint compounds? 8 asbestos-containing joint compound, correct? 9 A. That's what they addressed only was the 9 A. Correct. I 10 joint compounds. 10 Q. But they also did continue to sell that 11 Q. And it was Kelly-Moore's understanding 11 product at their local stores for the duration of 12 that as a result of this new statute, that there 12 the time that the statute allowed them to which was 13 would be an inability for them to continue to sell 13 June 12, 1978? 14 --to manufacture or sell that product after a 14 A. That is correct. 15 certain time in 1978? 15 Q. And do you have any idea how much product 16 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 16 Kelly-Moore sold of those joint compounds from the j 17 A. The ban was very explicit. You could not 17 January 16 manufacturing cut-off date, to the June j 18 manufacture, input into commerce anything after, I 18 12, '78, no - 19 believe, the 12th o f January, and that you had then 19 A. Before I answer that, can I -- 1 20 --had until June 16th o f '78 to sell out the 20 Q. Yes, sir. 21 inventory that was in the field. 21 A. I'd like to make a point. If you read the j 22 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Okay. Well, let's talk 22 Consumer Products Safety Commission ban, they're I 23 about those two dates. With respect to January of 23 very emphatic about stating that they understood the I 24 '78, this is the time when you cannot ship anymore 24 impact on businesses by prohibiting the sale, or j 25 back out from the manufacturer? 25 cleaning out of the inventory, and it did not want Page 339 Page 341 I 1 A. Ship it out from the manufacturer? 2 Q. From the manufacturer. That's the 3 drop-dead date for getting it out o f the 4 manufacturer's facility. 5 A. Whatever that date is, the 12th or 16th. 6 That was the -- 7 Q. January 16th. 8 A. Right. 9 Q. Okay. But for stock that had already been 10 sent to Kelly-Moore's shelves, these same joint 11 compounds that were now banned, Kelly-Moore could 12 legally still sell them up through June 12 of 1978? 13 A. That is correct. 14 Q. Couldn't get anymore shipped to you from 15 any o f the Paco facilities after January 16th, but 16 you could still sell what you had on your shelves? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. Or in your inventory, you know, behind the 19 counter or whatever, right? 20 A. What was already in the pipeline, in 21 theory, yes, you could. 22 Q. Okay. Now, Kelly-Moore did understand 23 that the Consumer Products Safety Commission had 24 banned these products as a potential health hazard 25 to those people that were using it? That was the 1 to do anything --it wasn't just Kelly-Moore, it was | 2 the whole industry --to destroy the economic 1 3 situation. So they were very emphatic that they 1 4 give --they were going to give everybody time to j 5 sell it out. 6 They also said, however, that if they had felt | 7 at any point from January through June that there I 8 was an issue that warranted immediate discontinuance I 9 and suspension of the sale of the product, they were I 10 in the ability to control that, and they --they did 11 not --they had that ability to stop it right then, 1 12 but they said in all fairness we're going to give 1 13 you the six months to clear it out. 1 14 Q. And you believe that Kelly-Moore would 1 15 have suffered a serious economic hardship by not | 16 being able to sell or deplete the remaining stock on 1 17 their shelves? 1 18 A. I don't know. I mean, there would have 1 19 been economic hardship on how to dispose o f the 1 20 product if you had no source to get rid o f it. 21 Serious, I don't know if I'd use that terminology, 22 but we were -- we, and everybody else in the 23 industry, functioned exactly - - 1know we did. 24 Okay. We did everything we were supposed to do, 25 based on the guidelines that were established. 1 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713)861-0203 86 (Pages 338 to 341) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 342 Page 344 l Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not 2 Kelly-Moore took any initiatives after the ban went 3 into effect -- 4 MR. HAZEN: Objection. 5 Q. (By Mr. Coon) --in January 1978 until 6 ( the time they quit selling the product in June 1978, 7 to provide any additional notices or warnings to 8 those purchasers of the products, of one - that's 9 the predicating question -- one, that the product 10 had been banned by the Consumer Product Safety 11 Commission? Do you know if those types of notices 12 went out to any o f the purchasers? 13 MR. HAZEN: Objection, form. 14 A. Between January and June -- 15 Q. (By Mr. Coon) Right. 16 A. - o f 78. 17 Q. Right. You quit manufacturing it -- 18 A. Right. 19 Q. --but you could still sell it until June? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. During that time frame that those products 22 were still on your shelves, did Kelly-Moore provide 23 any types o f additional notices to the customers 24 that this was a product that had now been banned for 25 use? i Q. To your knowledge --to your knowledge, 2 though, you didn't go out and put any stickers on 3 the products that were still in the shelves advising 4 them of the ban, correct? 5 A. Well, it already had the sticker on it. 6 Q. No, advising --advising the purchasers 7 that there was now a ban on this product? 8 A. No. I haven't seen anything of that, but 9 it did have the asbestos, the caution warning on it. 10 Q. The same one we looked at on the other 11 box? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Okay. What happened to the product that 14 was still on the shelves in June that Kelly-Moore 15 had been unable to sell for whatever reasons? 16 A. That product that was regulated under the 17 Consumer Products Safety Commission ban, the joint 18 compounds, were returned to the factory. 19 Q. And what did the factory do with them? 20 A. They disposed of them in accordance with 21 whatever the regulations were for disposal. 22 Q. Do you know what the regulations for 23 disposal of those products were? 24 A. Basically it said that you would put the 25 material in a tight container, take it to the land Page 343 Page 345 1 A. There was information that went to the 2 stores that indicated what the ban involved, and as 3 a result of that, what was to happen, what was to 4 transpire from January through June went to the 5 stores. 6 Q. For the edification of the managers and 7 employees of the store -- 8 A. To keep them - 9 Q. --right? 10 A. --informed, yes. 11 Q. Right. Was there anything done at 12 Kelly-Moore to advise the purchaser of the products 13 that these were products that had now been banned by 14 the Consumer Safety Product Commission? 15 A. I can't answer that, sir. 16 Q. Okay. Do you have any information to 17 indicate that such information was relayed? 18 A. I have not seen anything that was formal 19 information that would --in that particular case. 20 Now, there was other cases where our customers were 21 advised as to the removal of asbestos in our 22 products, over a certain period during the 70s. We 23 did send out information advising that. As related 24 to this specific issue, I --I don't - I can't say. 25 I have not seen it. 1 --to the dump, to a landfill, and put papers 2 together indicating how much you were taking to the 3 landfill, give a copy of it to the EPA, or the 4 government, take a copy of it to the landfill, and 5 have it buried. 6 Q. It was treated as a hazardous waste? 7 A. It was buried within --they said in a 8 minimum of six inches of soil on top. 9 Q. Right. Had to be treated like a hazardous 10 waste in compliance with EPA regulations for the 11 disposal of hazardous materials, correct? 12 A. I have been involved with the disposal of 13 hazardous materials, as paint is classified, and to 14 me --this was hazardous waste disposal, but they 15 even allowed you to put it in sealed bags, and put 16 it in the ground. I don't know if that's safe or 17 not. 18 Q. I'd asked you a question on this, and this 19 may answer it. This is 1233 dated January 78. The 20 question I had had was, did you know how much 21 product you still had on the shelves after you could 22 not manufacture it anymore. I think this 23 Mr. Stubb's letter again, this one to Mr. Moore? 24 A. He's sending it to Mr. Moore, the 25 president, telling him the ban is now in effect, and NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 87 (Pages 342 to 345) AR7RRQ9n_7R 1 r _ 1 1H R -A r 1 r-nfY M R* A hri p a 7 Page 346 Page 348 I 1 our plants manufacture only asbestos-free formulas. 2 Q. Okay. And then in the second paragraph it 3 gives them --tells Mr. Moore how much of the 4 asbestos-containing material they still have in the 5 shelves? 6 A. This was initially indicating what the 7 inventory was at that time in January, yes, or 8 about, thereabouts. 9 Q. So we had 282,000 pounds of the Dry Powder 10 and 7580 pounds of the Ready-mix? 11 A. 70 -- no, 77,580 containers. 12 Q. Oh, containers of the Ready-mix? 13 A. That would have been individual units. 14 Q. One gallon and five gallon? 15 A. Could be, yes. 16 Q. Or --how big were the containers for the 17 Ready-mix? 18 A. They could be a gallon, or they could be 19 the five gallon. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. That large cardboard box that you were 22 looking at earlier. 23 Q. So, we know that there was this amount 24 still on the shelves at Kelly-Moore when the ban 25 went into place? 1 Q. And so when was the last time that Paco 1 2 made asbestos-containing materials? j 3 A. Late --it was '77 or early '78. ! 4 Q. And in compliance with the Consumer Safety > 5 Products mandate? 6 A. That was in j oint compounds. 7 Q. Okay. | 8 A. Again, we could have continued to make the j 9 textures with asbestos in it in areas other than j 10 California. We elected not to do that, sir. 11 Q. Okay. Did they quit making the joint 12 compounds and the texture at the same time -- \ 13 A. No. | 14 Q. --that had asbestos in it in late '77? j 15 A. I don't really know. I would have to go | 16 back and look at the various production records. \ 17 THE YIDEOGRAPHER: Excuse me, I - j 18 MR. COON: That's all right. I have j 19 no further questions, sir. Thank you. j 20 MR. HAZEN: We will reserve our .. 1 21 questions until time o f trial. 1 22 MR. COON: Anybody? J 23 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going o ff-I 'm 1 24 sorry, I need to go off the record. Going off the 25 record at 7:02. Page 347 Page 349 j 1 A. Correct. 1 2 Q. And do we know how much o f that was sold 2 ERRATA SHEET 1 3 between January and June? 3 DEPOSITION OF HERBERT R. GIFFINS 4 A. Oh, I would say a fair amount, because 4 MAY 31, 2002 1 5 what was returned was a quantity --we know how much 5 I 6 was returned. 6 PAGE LINE CHANGE REASON 1 7 Q. Okay. And how much was returned? 7 I 8 A. Oh, man, I just looked at that. I just 8 I 9 added that number up the other day. I don't recall. 9 I 10 It's in my notes. I don't recall. Ijust added it 10 11 up. 11 1 12 Q. Okay. Was that the last of the 12 1 13 manufacturing o f asbestos-containing joint compounds 13 I 14 by Kelly-Moore and the Paco entity? 14 1 15 A. As far as joint compounds? 15 1 16 Q. Yes, sir. 16 I 17 A. It would have had to be. 17 1 18 Q. And was --what products were still made 18 I 19 after the Consumer Products ban that would have 19 I 20 contained asbestos? 20 1 21 A. You could have still made -- except in 21 1 22 California, you could have still made the ceiling 22 23 and wall textures. 23 1 24 Q. And as I -- 24 1 25 A. We elected not to do that. 25 Signature: Date: j NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 88 (Pages 346 to 349) 36766920-761c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea7 Page 350 1 1, HERBERT R. GIFFINS, have read the 2 foregoing deposition and hereby affix my signature 3 that same is true and correct, except as noted on a 4 separate page and signed by me. 5 6* 7 HERBERT R. GIFFINS 8 9 THE STATE OF TEXAS 10 COUNTY OF HARRIS 11 12 Before me on this day 13 personally appeared HERBERT R. GIFFINS, known to me 14 or proved to me on the oath of or 15 through to be the person whose name is 16 subscribed to the preceding instrument and 17 acknowledged to me that he/she executed the same for 18 the purposes and consideration therein expressed. 19 Given under my hand and seal of office 20 this day of , A.D., 2002. 21 22 23 Notary Public 24 25 No. 04769750, which (he clerk o f the court must tax as costs; That pursuant to information given to the deposition officer at the time said testimony was taken, the following includes all parties of record: [The names o f said attorneys have been provided by counsel and are on file at the office of the court reporter,] That a copy o f this certificate was served on all parties by serving same through their attorney o f record, pursuant to Rule 203.3 TRCP, on the day o f , 2002. I further certify that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any o f the parties in the action in which this proceeding was taken, and further that 1am not financially or 11 otherwise interested in the outcome o f the action. 12 Further certification requirements pursuant to Rule 203 o f TRCP will be certified to 13 after they have occurred. 14 Sworn to by me on th e _________ day of _____________________ , 2002. 15 16 17 Kathy Miller, CSR No. 739 Certificate Expires: 12/31/2002 5300 Memorial Drive, Ste. 600 Houston, Texas 77007 Phone: (713) 861-0203 Fax: (713)861-2324 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 352 NO. B-150.374-AK WILLIAM L. COTTON, ET AL ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF )) VS. ) JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS ) A.P. GREEN REFRACTORIES ) COMPANY, ET AL ) 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT NO. 41,862 VERDA SUTTON AND P.D. ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT SUTTON VS. )) ) HARDIN COUNTY, TEXAS ACand, INC, ET AL ) 356TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT REPORTER'S CERTIFICATION DEPOSITION OF HERBERT R. GIFFINS TAKEN ON MAY 31, 2002 I, Kathy Miller, CSR, Certification No. 739 in and for the State of Texas, hereby certify to the following: That the witness, HERBERT R, GIFFINS. was duly sworn by me and that the transcript o f the oral deposition is a true record o f the testimony given by the witness; That the deposition transcript was , 2002, to Mr. Scott Hazen, for examination, signature, and return to the offices of Nell McCallum & Associates, Inc., by , 2002; That the amount o f time used by each party at die deposition is as follows: Attorney for Plaintiffs: 6.22 hours, Mr. Brent W. Coon That S is the deposition 24 officer's charges for preparing the original deposition transcript and any copies o f exhibits, charged to Mr. Brent W. Coon, Texas Bar Association Page 351 NO. B-I50.374-AK WILLIAM L. COTTON, ET AL ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF ) ) VS. ) JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS ) A.P. GREEN REFRACTORIES ) COMPANY, ETAL ) 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT NO. 41,862 VERDA SUTTON .AND P.D. ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT SUTTON ) ) VS. > HARDIN COUNTY, TEXAS ) ACandS.. INC., ETAL ) 356TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT FURTHER CERTIFICATION UNDER RULE 203 TRCP The original deposition waa/was not returned to the deposition officer on . 2002; If returned, the attached Changes and Signature page contains any changes and the reasons therefor. If returned, the original deposition was delivered to _______________ , Custodial Attorney. That S__________ is the deposition officer's charge to Mr. Brent W. Coon for preparing the original deposition transcript and any copies of exhibits. That the deposition was delivered in accordance with Rule 203.3, and that a copy of this certificate was served on all parties shown herein and filed with the Clerk. Certified to by me th is____ day of ____________, 2002. KATHY MILLER, CSR. RMR, CRR Texas CSR No. 739 Exp. 12-31-2002 Nell McCallum & Associates, Inc. 5300 Memorial, Suite 600 Houston, Texas 77010 Page 353 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 89 (Pages 350 to 353) 36766920-761 c-11d6-8c1 c-00045a4bdea' Page 1 A_________ abide 340:6 Abilene 62:17 ability 43:24 51:20 138:13 259:2 264:13 28*18 341:10,11 able 18:3,4 76:4 144:1 172:1 203:4 229:6 232:20 235:3 261:18 277:8 294:15 303:16 304:4,23 307:15 331:1 341:16 about 10:6 14:6 16:14 16:17 17:3 18:15 20:10 22:9,21 23:23 24:3,4,5 27:7,11 28:19 29:19,23 32:19 32:20 35:6 36:2 37:14 38:9 39:10 40:3,6 43:4 44:8 47:20,22 49:2 51:8 51:13 52:9,12 53:20 54:3,9 56:17 57:8,19 58:1 59:18 61:4 64:3 64:24 65:15 66:11,17 67:24 68:23 69:16,18 70:24 73:2 74:7 75:22,23 76:8 78:24 79:10 80:3,6,22 81:17,19 83:16,22 86:2 87:3 88:8 92:5 94:5 95:4,19 96:10 99:7,14 101:2,22,23 101:25 107:13 108:2 108:3,5,6,9 111:15 112:10,14,16 117:15 117:16,19 121:20 122:6 124:15 129:15 131:1 135:23 136:3 136:22 137:9 138:8 140:14 143:12 144:19 149:15 150:12,16,18 151:2 153:18,19 154:17 155:13 156:11 158:20 159:19 163:1 163:2 165:6 174:22 175:4 176:15 181:19 181:20 184:1,4,7,24 185:6,18 186:23 187:4,9 188:18 189:1 189:2,3 190:1 191:6 191:7 193:3,15 194:14 196:5,9 197:16,21,23 198:2 198:24 199:5 201:6,7 202:6 205:12 207:10 207:16214:4215:15 216:6 218:3,8 220:2 223:24 224:7,9 225:22 228:23 229:9 234:1,12,15,19 236:5 236:7 239:6,12 241:16,18,19,23 242:3 243:1,4,21 248:20 250:4,8 252:3 254:20,23,23 255:1,9 255:9,15 258:7,21 262:5,15 265:13,19 266:19 267:17 268:13,15,16,18 269:11,15,22,23,25 270:1 273:16 282:4 282:17 284:10 289:23 290:7 292:11 293:2,3,4,20 295:1,7 295:8,11,17 296:16 297:10 298:19 302:2 309:18 310:21 312:5 312:14,16313:18 314:1,3,10,12 317:5 317:15 320:14 321:20 322:2,19,25 323:16 327:22 332:9 333:13 334:5,15,21 335:6,13,25 336:3,24 337:23 338:23 340:2 340:23 346:8 above 1:17 28:7 147:17 abreast 259:9 335:22 ACandS 1:9 351:9 353:8 acceptable 259:6 acceptance 307:9 309:8 accepted 306:8 307:11 307:13 308:6 accord 75:16 accordance 344:20 353:17 according 88:19 183:21 186:16 209:21 304:19 account 40:13 accounting 24:2 39:22 67:19 accounting-type 67:16 67:18 accumulated 96:11 accurately 294:11 achieve 39:22 acknowledged 350:17 acknowledges 330:7 acknowledgment 321:21 acoustic 296:22 297:8 acquire 114:2 acquired 11:23 16:2 40:16 48:18,24,25 49:4,16 74:17 79:25 102:13,25 103:2,8 104:4,8 105:25 110:13 112:17 114:9 114:23 122:2 128:12 128:14207:18 214:12,13 238:11 acquiring 92:1 acquisition 38:11 50:8 50:15,16 104:11 106:15,17 128:22 207:24 acquisitioned 112:20 112:22 Act 283:21 action 277:10 352:10 352:11 actions 228:10 286:7 active 251:8 activities 60:7 274:15 actual 33:23 84:10 95:1 119:20 181:16 273:23 actually 42:11 50:10 51:19 71:13 75:11,19 81:25 84:9 87:20 89:23 90:16,17 93:23 106:1 116:15 125:7 127:12 139:12 140:15 153:21 173:22 181:20 183:15 186:4,13 187:8,8,10 191:18 199:5 205:15,17 208:11 210:5 216:10 223:7 227:22 229:18 230:4 235:22 236:21 260:21 274:20 287:18 288:17 294:3 296:25 302:25 306:15 310:14 313:25 335:8,9 337:8 ad 228:11 Adams 3:6 add 139:15 141:23 234:7 282:21 added 117:25 202:21 203:7 214:18 221:19 221:20 222:3,7 292:7 347:9,10 adding 234:10 Addison 2:6,7 addition 18:7 116:22 125:22 159:17 228:18 additional 20:12 49:5 101:21 110:14 123:3 124:12 137:17 157:16 207:10 222:1 222:2 231:12 260:24 264:14,17 270:5 271:5 272:22 277:20 282:12 291:16 292:15 296:7 298:25 303:14 330:18 342:7 342:23 additive 145:12 address 10:1,3 13:6 303:24,25 addressed 96:13,14 278:5 283:10 287:11 303:4 304:4 305:3 318:6 338:9 addresses 273:20 302:14 addressing 299:24 302:4 adhered 233:8 advancement 289:12 advertising 34:25 35:1 advise 42:6,25 343:12 advised 273:4 316:18 337:12 343:21 advising 259:19 269:6 293:10 316:22 343:23 344:3,6,6 affect 278:22 affix 350:2 afoul 279:13 afraid 89:17 207:21 327:16 Africa 87:11,16 91:2,3 91:5 96:25 97:4 after 22:5 28:5,10 32:9 38:8,9 55:9 92:1 101:10 103:8 106:15 106:17,24 114:23 120:21 134:16 203:12 211:18 222:4 228:9 229:7,7 230:16 239:11,15 242:18 259:21 266:7 267:11 272:21 291:1 292:2 304:3,21 306:12 307:8 326:1,6 327:9 333:3 335:14 337:14 337:15,24,24 338:14 338:18 339:15 342:2 345:21 347:19 352:13 again 37:19 42:22 ? 45:13 54:13 59:4 S 64:6 65:2,9 67:14 \ 97:17 98:25 101:3,4 ( 103:22 107:6 110:23 j 126:1 137:13 158:25 ; 160:2,16 161:5 \ 165:19 178:3 184:25 i 185:13,17,22 186:18 ! 186:23 187:4,11 f 188:18 202:13 l 203:19 204:13 205:3 : 205:15,20,21 210:10 f 210:15 213:8 217:6 I 224:16 237:7,22 i 242:21 246:13 j 248:24,24 252:1 B 256:12 269:23 286:15 299:21 321:12 322:9 323:11 324:23 325:24 329:14 330:4 335:21 345:23 348:8 against 311:3 agencies 316:22 322:22 aggregate 87:7 89:4 138:9 aggregates 139:8 ago 11:1831:5 37:15 40:1,3 41:20,21,24 46:16 73:10 213:8 258:21 agree 42:13 175:7 191:2 194:8 264:21 270:16 281:22 agreed 297:2 agreement 70:16,22 72:1 agreements 69:19 71:24 ahead 14:24 253:18 301:7 307:15,19 324:15 333:22 AI 251:15 AIA 251:18 air 79:15 316:13 airborne 5:17 6:10,11 259:6 279:24 309:14 310:10311:1 akin 151:23,25 152:2 AL 1:2,5,9 351:2,5,9 353:1,4,8 aligned 64:11 alleging 243:14 Allied 66:17 f allowed 86:8 147:25 ! 171:16 172:2 264:17 \ 1 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 Page 2 286:18 340:12 345:15 almost 35:14 174:20 186:25 188:24 252:6 along 111:10315:21 322:8 alpha 156:6 already 102:18 103:6 111:11 113:3 120:10 120:13 128:13 143:11 144:5 149:2,5 153:19 202:25 203:2 203:13 230:17 333:9 335:16 339:9,20 344:5 although 123:9 141:9 192:13 235:8 252:18 always 70:8 72:9,10 110:8 226:7 235:11 235:13 272:15 America 251:16 amongst 269:13 amount 105:6 181:21 183:13,16 185:11 187:6,7,20,25 188:1 188:9,12 192:6 194:12 195:8 203:22 208:13,14,16 209:23 209:24 210:6,7,17 212:23 213:5,22,22 215:10 216:11,14 217:6,17,22 219:5 241:8 285:12 300:9 302:1 303:4 305:5 346:23 347:4 351:21 amounts 205:9 285:11 amphiboles 201:11 analogy 133:3,9 analysis 312:9 analyze 87:20 Ann 3:9 annual 271:22 another 11:20 21:8 25:12 30:8 66:8 73:14 80:20 91:12 107:12,18 116:19 124:11 132:22 142:18 148:19 156:20 169:20 170:3 170:19 173:2 188:14 207:3 222:14 224:11 237:14 247:19 254:18 279:23 311:16 314:22 318:21 321:10 323:14 326:21,24 331:24 332:23 answer 43:752:23 63:12 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344:9 347:20 348:9 348:14 asbestosis 236:8 238:13 239:1 244:22 245:3 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. 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(713) 861-0203 Page 5 business 32:7,9 44:3 57:13,15 68:1 70:7,8 74:16 85:11,13 93:16 98:5,7,16 99:1 101:6 106:21 107:7 110:10 110:15,18,24 113:5 117:20 121:16 165:18 169:2,19,19 172:21,25 181:9,10 181:20 198:16,17,21 219:25 308:25 330:22 businesses 78:12 135:12 340:24 butt 131:25 buy 26:11,23 40:9 68:4 72:25 85:19 86:15,18 91:4 98:13 108:20,23 116:11 128:6,6 129:24 131:22 175:13 176:7 188:9 191:15 203:15 214:20 298:1,7 305:24 buying 34:15 87:15,21 90:23 93:7 96:22,24 98:9 107:9 176:5 buys 175:25 bypassed 85:1 B-150,374-AK 1:1 351:1 353:1 _________C________ C 2:12 cake 148:4 calcium 32:22 calculation 199:7 calendar 182:5 215:11 Calidria 7:10,11 334:22 California 13:14,19,20 20:21 23:18 33:3 35:22 36:2 39:4,7 48:12 50:17 53:18 54:10 57:3 58:5,12 59:12,25 63:4 64:19 68:25 69:5 73:11 76:17 81:15 94:2 111:19 114:14 118:14 155:24 182:14,23 183:20 189:20 198:13 202:7 203:5,9 237:18 238:22,24 249:8 274:22 289:12 300:8 300:8,14,22,23 301:6 301:9,12,13,23 302:8 304:13,14,21,25 305:3,3,12,13,16,17 305:20 306:8,10,11 306:12,13,23 307:11 307:17 308:8,9 309:16 315:9 319:12 321:22,24 322:2,4,8 323:4 325:21 326:10 328:8 347:22 348:10 call 10:18 15:6 23:2 33:22 53:5 61:14 64:5 65:21 74:8 85:12,20 91:25 109:21 131:21 142:20 173:18 175:24 198:5 228:13 230:2 237:1 245:8 327:9 called 10:9 23:2 34:14 63:1064:13,14 73:15 81:21 90:4 105:16 118:6 137:14 144:12 151:5 152:22,24 153:6 162:12 173:17 177:3 214:17 224:18 224:20 227:10,14 244:21 247:16 252:1 256:13,20 279:24 293:17 calling 122:15 298:3 calls 20:23 168:8 Cal-Pacific 65:23 66:8 66:14 73:9,14 78:18 93:25 94:1 came 27:13,19 29:20 32:9 34:12 38:12 47:23 48:2 87:16 91:3 109:25 122:12 122:13 123:22 136:6 141:13 143:16 145:6 145:8,9 167:13 182:10 187:13 197:3 199:22 201:16 203:12 210:19 222:4 222:8 228:9 236:10 238:1 239:11 246:24 256:22 261:1 270:1 273:17 276:22 278:1 282:4 283:25 291:1 297:24 298:4 300:11 300:24 303:22 324:10 338:4 camera 79:11,13 127:14 Canada 76:16 200:5 226:15 253:7 Canadian 200:5 253:8 257:7 258:16 311:4 cancer 245:18,21,23 246:1,5,19 247:13,20 248:23 264:23 269:13,20,23 270:9 270:20,23 271:2 295:4,13,13 320:15 canning 78:4 cans 88:24 captioned 315:6 capture 110:14 car 77:13 108:25 109:1 177:1 C arbide2.il 6:23 7:10 7:11 9:13 200:6 253:9 257:7 280:1 297:14,23 310:21 311:3 328:16 334:23 336:17 cardboard 346:21 cardboard-type 110:1 careful 27:3 Carey 200:5 226:15 253:7,8 257:6 258:16 Carey-Canadian 5:6 311:5 cargo 78:25 97:6 Carlos 4:20 54:10,16 59:25 96:9 111:21 112:2 115:24 116:14 116:16 117:7 118:13 119:14 120:9 182:23 182:25 183:19 186:22 189:20,24 223:11,15 231:13,14 238:1 249:14,15 262:22 277:6 307:7 309:17 315:7 318:20 319:12,13,16 328:8 329:8 carried 204:3,19 212:3 carrier 94:12 268:8 280:4,23 282:2 carry 69:12 203:24 210:21 cars 54:1 77:16 carts 77:6 case 13:12,20,20 81:2 149:21 292:24 343:19 cases 196:5 244:9 343:20 categories 295:12 cause 137:16 157:5 236:16 245:23 248:1 248:3,10 258:8 263:22 270:8,9,19 271:1 caused 20:12 247:22,23 264:22 295:22 299:11 causes 1:18 39:20 245:17 caution 42:23 156:23 156:24 263:20 265:19 270:12,16 273:23 275:15 344:9 cautionaries 270:6 cautionary 263:18,24 273:15 cautions 159:19 ceased 117:11 330:7,13 ceasing 117:16 ceiling 135:13,14 137:10,25 138:5 149:22,22 153:16 155:18 300:1,1,4,10 300:14 302:7,22 306:6 307:10 308:15 309:1 311:2 321:17 322:1,8 323:12 324:24,25 325:22,25 326:4,9,16 330:15,16 331:5 347:22 ceilings 82:13 134:5 135:11,18 138:1 cement 101:23 103:14 290:10 cements 103:20,20 104:3 130:10 139:7 center 108:15 121:5 centers 74:12,15,19 75:14 121:2 177:5,16 centimeter 276:17 Central 25:4 ceramic 31:22,23 32:8 57:13 79:18,19 ceramics 31:25 32:3 79:15,25 80:3 certain 72:14 89:7 167:21 172:3 200:21 236:13 259:20 272:11 278:3 284:4 284:21 285:22 288:7 296:4,5 303:25 312:9 337:13 338:15 343:22 certainly 158:11 264:21 Certainteed 2:11 9:13 certificate 352:6,17 353:18 certification 351:11,13 352:12 353:9 certified 1:20 352:12 \ 353:20 ; certify 351:14 352:9 { chain 24:4 | chains 21:24 \ Chairman 269:5 i chance 178:6 195:7 . change 29:5 170:23 1 185:4 239:18 265:6 } 265:16 266:11 296:21 297:2 349:6 j changed 185:5 266:15 : 287:15 f changes 170:18,22 : 330:18 353:12,12 \ changing 292:6 \ characteristics 145:15 charge 34:24 53:4 77:22 273:2 291:4 | 328:23 353:15 \ charged 351:25 J charges 351:24 chart 56:25 64:1 65:4 I 99:19 202:5,10 j 203:19 207:15 212:9 j j charts 65:11 124:12 S check 262:18 checked 327:9 | cheese 84:15 chemist 196:10 224:16 ! 260:19 291:3 | chemistry 260:20 ; Chem-Guard 78:2 1 chest 271:6,22,22 ] China 37:16 | chip 233:9 | choose 42:8,24 chopped 225:14 | Christiano 24:24 25:25 I 26:6,16,23 27:1,6,14 f 27:19 28:2,10 46:15 J 46:18,22 j chronological 229:1 I Chrysler 22:6 1 Chrysotile 201:16,21 201:24 224:19,19 J Cindy 9:2 | circumstance 235:5 J circumstances 11:3 i 253:3 296:4,5 329:4 i cities 59:13 < city 52:17,22 170:14 ; 310:1 , Civil 1:23 ) claim 13:2 238:1 f 241:21 243:4,7,10,16 ' 244:5,20 245:3,10 i \ NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. 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(713)861-0203 Page 14 huge 177:16,17 Hughland 6:20 316:3,3 huh 26:18 27:4 Huh-uh 61:18 93:15 153:20 199:16 human 16:20 humidity 155:24 hundred 219:12 Huntsinger 3:3 Hurst 38:13 49:9 50:9 50:11,21,22 54:20 55:1,9 59:22 60:4,5,7 60:18 61:8,8 62:10 62:10 63:6,18 73:12 73:13 94:6 102:6,7,9 102:23 209:11 211:14,16,22 212:20 215:25 249:9 306:19 309:3 323:17,17 325:1,15,18 327:1 330:7,13 hygiene 274:20 277:13 279:24 281:6,11 282:1 284:1 311:17 317:18 319:11 324:5 hygienist 262:11,18 263:3 267:11 270:2 292:2 hypothetically 85:8 H.B 6:13 Idaho 36:14 idea 17:17 25:22 41:4 41:14,19 54:4 59:2 75:18 94:19 96:16 97:10 98:22,24 101:4 106:6 115:13 127:14 130:21,25 155:7 158:16 162:23 165:11 180:24 190:25 193:8,11 195:4 196:23 216:21 233:21 244:11 256:9 280:24 340:15 identification 241:15 identifications 127:22 identified 18:6 105:14 124:17,20 125:4,12 159:6 160:1 167:9 208:12 240:5 255:24 identify 123:3 155:1 158:22 182:4 222:19 identifying 105:10 123:10 159:14 identity 8:11,23 18:22 104:14 208:21 IH 324:3 illnesses 4:22 298:19 immediate 261:17 341:8 immediately 273:21 277:11 278:3 290:12 292:12 304:1 impact 340:24 impacted 338:5 implemented 287:18 314:15,17 319:23 implementing 313:18 implications 196:12 implies 284:7 imply 203:12,13 import 96:19 important 322:19 323:2 impossible 174:21 impression 160:7 194:5 291:12 improve 173:5 287:9 improvement 74:11,12 74:15,18 75:14,15 111:18 121:2,5,13,16 129:25 inability 338:13 inaccurate 126:16 inadequate 313:10 Inc 1:9 4:97:9 9:1 328:1 351:9,19 353:8 353:24 inches 345:8 include 43:11 215:2 included 243:21 256:10 295:4 includes 298:25 352:3 income 174:19 increase 186:11 297:7 297:10 increased 269:12 320:14 indentations 132:2 indentions 132:17 135:1 index 4:1,20 210:5 219:23 indicate 159:12 169:3 192:13 236:1 251:4 273:7 276:9 290:11 297:3 318:25 343:17 indicated 56:12 161:8 171:20 239:7 244:1 257:25 277:7 298:20 298:22 299:9 328:4 336:25 337:17 343:2 indicates 41:3 119:4 191:22 206:7,17 207:15 215:23 244:20256:21 273:4 307:23 indicating 63:7 189:15 230:23 259:12,17 268:2 337:22 345:2 346:6 indication 236:18 237:25 265:2 299:6 indications 236:15 286:10 indirect 19:24 individual 13:3 66:9 82:17 86:3,8 108:19 109:6,8 245:2 346:13 individually 96:14 individuals 17:12 19:8 20:10 30:6 45:10 industrial 30:23 31:3 65:13 79:4 80:1,7,13 84:25 174:23 175:4,5 175:7 176:18 177:9 262:11,18 263:3 267:11 270:1 274:20 277:13 279:23 281:6 281:11 282:1 284:1 292:1 311:16 317:18 319:11,17 324:5 industrials 177:12 industrial/commercial 174:25 industry 78:4 79:15 83:22 194:16,23 250:15 251:5 255:17 268:18 269:5,14,20 288:16,22 289:2,9,18 289:18 293:21,22 341:2,23 influence 130:15 influencing 210:20 inform 263:15 information 5:3 18:9 20:13 42:9,25 43:2 65:9 89:13 96:10,17 169:9,23 175:22 181:16,17 182:18 183:8,12 191:12,17 192:1 193:4 194:2 203:20 204:24 205:9 205:16,22 207:5,10 208:16 209:3,9 212:23 213:4,21 216:11 219:4,10 222:1 228:5,14,19 229:2,13,22,25 230:8 230:10,22 231:17,20 232:1,2,4 235:3 240:22 244:1 245:2 245:12 251:6 252:7,8 252:8,18,20 253:14 257:9,12,16,23 258:4 258:9 260:15 269:24 274:14 290:16 291:20 292:4 335:6 335:21 343:1,16,17 343:19,23 352:2 informed 335:5 343:10 ingredient 100:9 146:25 ingredients 33:23 34:4 80:2 87:21 89:3 91:1 91:18 96:22 104:24 129:1,5 136:21,23 137:3 139:5 145:11 156:3 158:5 159:15 223:1 224:1,8 225:6 225:7 267:25 initial 27:17 initially 346:6 initiate 280:7 initiated 271:5,20 277:13 initiative 322:24 initiatives 342:2 injuries 4:22 244:3 298:19 injury 12:25 245:3,7 249:16 input 130:18 338:18 inquired 279:5 inquiry 42:15 Inside 54:4 inspect 280:25 281:25 282:6 inspected 275:1 277:16. 303:22 inspection 270:2 275:5 318:22 324:9,11 327:12 inspections 258:5 277:4,14 281:16 320:1,4 installed 262:21 instance 1:17 155:3 169:11 175:10 182:13 233:24 247:5 264:20 289:15 instead 27:8 66:21 177:19 228:10 296:23 Institute 236:11 251:15 251:16,20 252:2 258:1 instructions 5:10 158:4 220:13,24 221:3,8 instructs 42:14 instrument 350:16 insulation 278:18 insurance 281:13 282:2 327:6 insured 281:21,21 integrity 72:12 95:7 148:14 Intended 113:16 intention 172:8 interest 42:20 312:15 312:16 interested 42:16 195:17 352:11 interesting 217:17,21 217:22 305:2 interface 39:20 interior 30:22 interject 226:6 internal 180:10 228:13 229:4 231:22 296:7 internalize 67:8 internalized 79:20 interpret 270:25 292:24 309:11 337:2 337:11 interpretation 59:2 interrogatories 240:7 240:11 interrogatory 241:14 interviewed 18:20 Intracompany 4:14 introduce 9:24 inventory 331:18 332:19,23 338:21 339:18 340:25 346:7 invoice 4:14 7:9 166:18 178:15,16 328:2 invoices 170:9 328:25 involve 13:2 37:25 involved 10:24 11:18 18:12,15,16 21:19 30:5 31:19 38:1,3 53:6 58:19 65:2 70:22 75:24 78:11 133:23 193:8 229:12 230:2,4 232:5 244:9 249:25 251:10 260:19 291:13 343:2 345:12 involvement 11:2 19:25 102:1 264:21 289:1 involves 336:1 involving 12:21,24 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 in-house 67:6 182:3 in-store 180:1 Irons 3:10 Irving 3:7 269:7 issue 200:25 230:13 231:19 243:4 245:13 250:1 278:16 284:3 300:16,20 314:4 341:8 343:24 issues 13:7 15:3 18:2 42:18 44:8,12 51:7 54:4 86:4 196:4 230:21 231:16,23 234:15 245:20,20 249:7,21 258:3 259:25 270:1 280:24 290:25 295:9,22 300:17 312:10 335:20 item 181:1.244:4 items 33:8 34:15 71:16 72:16,21 157:20 179:16 180:1 _________ J________ January 5:7,19,24 7:7 38:12 258:12 259:17 274:19 275:10 318:23 326:22 327:2 327:13 330:6 331:10 331:14,24 333:3 337:14 338:19,23 339:7,15 340:17 341:7 342:5,14 343:4 345:19 346:7 347:3 JEFFERSON 1:3 351:3 353:3 Jersey 22:3 job 26:2 27:2 145:5 177:24 178:9,11 235:21 310:5 jobs 28:13 34:10 82:18 82:19 308:25 310:4 Joe 24:24 27:14 John 19:1 20:5 26:21 Johns-Manville 5:24 6:8 7:5 200:6 224:11 224:12 226:11 253:4 253:5 258:2,2 265:4 268:15 293:2,5,6 Johns-Manville's 270:3 join 24:15 joint 31:7 33:13,14 34:2 50:5 69:3 71:3,4 71:21 100:3,14 101:23 102:4,21 103:4,14,19,20 104:3 105:22 106:13 107:2 107:16 109:17 110:25 113:12,13 115:14 116:12 117:17 118:6,8,17 127:16 128:1 129:6 129:14 130:9 131:3,8 131:9 134:12 136:13 141:3 144:13,19,22 144:23 163:16 165:5 165:24 166:1 169:25 169:25 177:17 204:1 204:6,12 221:9,11 226:20 250:18 278:10 279:4 290:10 315:21 317:17 331:3 332:8,15,17 338:7,8 338:10 339:10 340:8 340:16 344:17 347:13,15 348:6,11 joints 113:18 129:10 131:9 134:13 joists 135:14 JUDICIAL 1:5,9 351:5 351:9 353:4,8 July 6:9,13 7:4 283:9 301:13,18,23 309:1 320:6,7 331:11,12,13 331:19 jumping 28:25 37:19 June 5:11 6:10 41:2 299:22 301:13 308:22 309:13 331:13,19 333:5,7 337:15 338:20 339:12 340:13,17 341:7 342:6,14,19 343:4 344:14 347:3 Jury 9:25 131:14 just 8:11 10:21,23 15:11 17:13,21,23 18:8 20:23 21:8,18 29:16 32:23 35:4,17 36:1 37:14 40:9 41:24 42:2 43:3,6 45:21,23 47:16,21,25 49:6,22 51:11 55:20 58:8 59:13 60:15 63:21 67:7 71:19 75:8,16,17 76:11 78:19 81:9 82:1,6 86:15 90:7,7 95:7 98:20 101:6 102:18 105:16 108:24 109:6 110: 10,11 112:12 116:18 117:2 119:22 122:4 123:13 124:2,3 127:12,13 130:1,13 131:21 133:2,5 135:6 136:13,15 137:6 139:4,18 140:2,16 142:17 143:25 148:7 150:22 154:9 156:20 157:17 158:25 160:1 160:6,10,10,13 163:10 166:6 168:5 169:15 170:15 176:21 178:8,16,17 179:1,7 181:13 182:20 186:4 190:25 191:10,16 192:17 196:19 198:1,6,10 204:20 208:5 209:3 212:5 213:4,12 216:17 223:25 224:2 224:3 228:22 230:8,9 231:16 233:11 234:1 234:20 236:7 239:20 240:4 241:12,13 244:24 245:8 246:6,9 246:17 247:13 249:19 252:17 254:15 255:18 266:10 267:4 271:15 274:14 275:11 277:25 279:8 285:13 286:1 290:25 293:17 300:11 305:12,17,22 306:9311:11 319:8 320:24 322:11 324:2 325:13,17 329:4 333:18,21,24 334:24 335:22 341:1 347:8,8 347:10 _________ K_________ K53:15 Kathy 1:19 351:13 352:17 353:23 KB 323:23 keep 19:14 52:18 79:11 154:20 170:9 193:7 259:8 286:12 302:6 308:7 335:4 343:8 keeping 215:10 217:7 259:3 335:22 336:19 Kellogg 3:2 9:1 Kelly 46:6,6,10 48:3,7 48:10 54:6 Kelly-Moore 2:17 4:8 4:10,15,23 5:4,9 7:13 9:17 10:9,12,17,25 11:4,11,16,25 13:5 Page 15 14:12,16,22 15:21,22 15:24 16:4,8 17:9,12 17:16,20 18:1,5 19:13,23,23 21:9,10 21:17,20,21,23 24:15 25:14,20 26:7,11,23 27:9,13,20,22 28:11 29:1,8,10,11,20 30:9 30:14,17,20,24 31:11 31:19 33:17 34:4,8 34:12,16 35:7 38:20 39:24 43:15,17,21 44:2,15,23,25 45:6,8 45:11,16,16 46:7,10 46:12 47:17 48:23 49:6 50:10 51:7 53:23 55:12 59:20 66:15 67:2 69:6,11 69:20 70:16 72:2,7 72:11,24 73:17,20,24 74:14,22,25 75:23 79:21 81:8,10 83:21 84:24 85:12 87:3,18 90:5,6,10 91:7,11,16 91:24 92:13 93:17 95:20 96:1,19 97:2 98:12 99:11 101:24 103:7,18 104:4,7 105:19 106:14 107:3 107:9,16 110:4 112:17,24 114:2 115:9,17 120:11 124:16 125:18 126:9 128:12,23 130:8,13 130:15 143:10 154:6 157:15 160:22 162:8 163:9 165:24 166:19 168:23 169:22 171:18,23 172:1,3,4 173:4,9,10,11,12 174:1 175:15 176:4 177:18 179:23,24 180:21 182:3 193:18 194:15,23 195:10 196:3 200:13 202:25 214:25 221:25 227:3 227:5 228:7,9,14,21 229:10,13,21 231:4 232:9,16,21 233:16 234:8 235:4 236:6 237:1 238:11,18,23 240:9 242:12 243:7 246:3 249:7,17 250:6 250:10,24 252:14 253:2,12,13 254:3,25 255:19 257:8,13 259:8,24,25 260:8 261:17,24 262:16 : 263:16,24 264:1,14 j 264:22 265:7,17 ' 270:7 271:20 273:5 274:21 277:13 i 278:23 279:1,12 i 281:21 285:20 \ 286:11 287:9,21 290:24 293:3 294:1 j 295:22 307:19 ! 317:14 320:23 322:7 ; j 329:25 331:25 336:18 337:25 338:5 339:11,22 340:6,16 ] 341:1,14 342:2,22 ` 343:12 344:14 f 346:24 347:14 ) Kelly-Moore's 29:23 I 29:25 114:11 126:4 i 167:23 228:18 229:3 ? 241:17 268:8 338:11 | 339:10 i kept 92:9 94:18 96:2,5 \ 98:20 231:13,15 ? 242:5 254:11 292:6.7 t key 223:14 j kind 18:8 19:7 21:23 * I 24:20 40:14 54:3 i 56:3 61:8 65:10 66:18 75:4,6 88:10 1 89:5,14 129:21,23,25 j 130:4,17 131:3 132:8 \ 132:9 138:7 139:9,13 158:22 159:18 161:6 | 172:5 181:7 198:10 199:9 206:7 216:25 223:25 233:21 240:24 258:20 271:1 290:25 319:16 334:24 kinds 124:15 134:6 135:20 Kirkland 207:8 208:12 kitchen 140:1 kitten 32:1 KM 4:8,10,11,12,13,14 4:15,18,20,21,23 5:4 5:6,8,9,11,12,14,16 5:17,19,20,22,24 6:3 6:4,6,7,8,10,11,13,14 6:16,17,19,21,23 7:3 7:5,6,7,8,10,11,13,14 7:15 55:19,21 80:18 84:9 124:20,21 127:8 166:25 222:18 240:5 254:19 273:11 289:23 293:7 299:20 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713)861-0203 299:20 308:20 309:13 320:11,13 321:19 323:23 327:25 330:10 KMX 181:22 208:11 254:19 266:17 274:7 274:18 312:13 336:6 336:11 KM-116 315:2 KM-117 316:7 KM-47 296:13 knew 20:1 24:22 25:6 25:11 28:12 48:5 181:19 241:18 288:2 knock 132:17 know 14:20 15:2,9,11 15:14,17,23 16:2,15 16:19 17:24 21:7,12 21:18 24:5 25:18 26:3,5,8,17 27:18 28:15,24 30:18,21 31:6,14 33:1,11 35:25 36:5 40:4,22 41:1,12,20 44:8 45:1 45:3,4,10,14,15,19 47:11 48:18 49:25 50:4 51:16,18 52:17 54:14 55:5 58:14,21 67:10,20,24 68:13,17 70:21 71:10,23 72:4 73:25 74:5,6 75:23 77:1,13,17,22 80:6 80:12 82:24 83:8 86:10 87:5,12,14 89:15 92:3,8,11,12 93:10,13,21 94:14,17 94:20,23,24 95:1,15 95:19,22 96:18 97:5 97:14 98:25 99:17 100:11,17,25 102:18 103:5,9,11,12 104:6 104:10,18,19 105:8 105:18,18,21,24 106:7,11 107:1,5,10 107:15 108:3 110:14 114:22 115:4,17 116:9,15 119:23 121:23 125:7 126:19 127:1 128:11,17,20 128:21,24,25 130:19 140:20 144:2 145:8 145:22 146:20 148:3 148:10,16 149:20 150:6 151:16 152:4 154:6,14 155:6,9 158:10,14 160:16,19 160:20 161:8 162:1,8 Page 16 162:10,14,19,24 163:4,7,9,15,18,18 164:4,15,18,19 165:15,21 166:5,20 168:18,23,25 169:4 170:7 171:9 172:11 172:22 174:10 176:1 189:17 190:10,10,11 190:18,20 192:3,4,9 192:16,17,18 193:2 193:17,22 195:17 196:14,18,20 197:3 199:24 200:18 201:2 201:5,6,10 203:2,3 203:23 204:1,4,8,20 208:1 209:6 214:16 217:25 218:21 220:17,22 221:21 224:14 226:21 227:8 228:23 232:9,15 234:8 235:25 237:7 237:14,17,24,24 238:17,17,22 239:3,4 239:10 243:24 244:16,17 245:1,6 246:12,19 248:14,18 248:21 249:24,24 250:21,24 252:3,11 252:14 253:2 254:8 254:13 255:3,5 256:8 256:10 259:7 261:22 261:24 265:23 268:7 268:21,22,23 269:9 269:17 270:4,11 271:15 272:23 276:1 276:13,19 277:3,12 277:15,18 281:9,24 282:4,6 284:3,15 285:2,6 286:5 287:10 287:12,21 288:1,7,13 288:21 289:5,8,12,16 289:17 290:5,6,21 292:5 293:18,24 294:6295:6,20 297:12,16 298:5 299:8 301:6 303:19 303:20,21 306:16 310:13 313:1,3 316:4 316:11 318:6,17 319:13 320:22 322:6 322:24 324:4,10,18 325:5,7 328:13 329:3 329:6,24 337:9 339:18 341:18,21,23 342:1,11 344:22 345:16,20 346:23 347:2,5 348:15 Knowing 83:15 knowledge 67:5 72:8 82:9 92:14 102:2 104:2 105:11 106:13 116:13 118:7 121:19 125:9 130:11 159:6 171:15 194:20,22 230:12 266:9 344:1,1 known 46:11 350:13 knows 140:21 K-M 111:18 L 1:2 9:5 297:11 351:2 353:1 lab 87:19,19 88:13,18 88:22 label 157:6,23 263:18 265:13,19,21 266:10 labeling 157:16 158:22 159:5,25 160:23 265:5,14,16 274:16 labelings 160:13 labels 4:12 154:11 158:9 160:9 222:2 263:24 273:15 274:4 labor 140:17 lack 192:18 lacquers 31:4 Ladies 9:25 131:13 lamps 75:5 land 50:13 95:2,3,5,9 344:25 landfill 345:1,3,4 language 264:2,3,15 334:25 337:20 large 74:18 83:5 84:25 85:24 109:10 111:2 141:12 177:4,15 346:21 larger 23:6,7 93:17 200:22 231:17 largest 69:6 164:9 Larry 2:21 9:6 Las 3:7 last 15:24 19:3,4 39:9 64:10 67:21 147:16 156:21 189:22 211:3 211:23 217:12 218:11 336:23 347:12 348:1 late 125:24 190:8 193:3 200:8 209:16 212:4 234:23 251:11 295:20 326:1,5 348:3 348:14 lately 51:5 later 37:23 107:13 117:18 158:20 166:15 179:9,10 193:24 196:21 335:13 lateral 63:16 latest 290:9 latex 34:1,1 law 2:15 238:12 263:4 300:21 301:24 305:3 307:21 340:7 Lawrence 246:21 lay 129:12 lays 65:4 240:22 lead 42:18 learn 31:25 269:25 learned 76:11 lease 83:9 leased 98:21,21 least 15:16 175:21 225:21,25 229:6,7 257:10 259:7 266:1 268:7 290:15 291:22 295:20 leave 134:7 135:6 leaves 160:7 leaving 24:13 ledger 212:12 left 20:14 21:10 22:5 23:16 24:12 25:13 53:3 101:18 166:20 226:24 288:5 332:25 legal 44:8,12 legally 339:12 length 202:2 less 147:25 148:2 188:5 190:13 196:21,25 298:8 308:10 332:16 let 11:9 42:23 43:5 51:18 54:17 55:11 59:17 79:9 85:3 92:9 112:25 122:18,25 126:14 154:2 179:16 194:13 203:6 207:5 232:13 234:1 267:2 284:3 290:22 317:20 322:24 329:16 letter 5:6,11,19,24 6:8 6:13,14,16,17,19,21 6:23 7:3,5,10,12 202:13,17 236:12 257:25 258:15 259:16,22 268:19 269:4 270:2 275:10 284:2 288:15 289:25 293:8,9 294:17 307:24 311:23 312:3 312:22 313:8 315:12 315:12,17316:16 317:13 322:19 323:2 334:13 336:23,25 337:7 345:23 letters 156:6 231:22 299:23 312:21 336:17 337:2 let's 29:19 41:21 51:8 67:21 69:18 95:5 112:11,12,16 121:20 122:18 124:2 127:12 131:1 136:3 137:5 144:11 147:3 163:14 178:6 190:3 198:23 234:1,19 236:7 253:12 257:21 268:16 309:12 316:5 316:17 333:10 338:22 level 29:2 42:15 229:22 284:21 310:25 318:9 levels 259:1 275:7 311:7,19 Levick 2:6 Liberty 5:19 6:14,16 6:21 258:5 262:10 267:10 268:12 271:4 274:19 276:25 277:18 280:1,2,17,22 281:5,12,24 283:22 283:25 303:22 311:17 312:7 314:24 315:15 317:14 324:6 light 272:9 lights 75:6 like 8:9 11:7,17 12:20 13:17 31:25 32:22 34:17 40:14 44:19 50:5 55:13 56:6 59:22 61:19 64:9 66:17 72:5,19 74:9 75:5,8,11 77:13 78:25 79:3 81:6 82:13 85:15 87:23 88:1,25 93:17 95:16 98:7 99:20 103:22 107:16 109:11,25 110:24 119:10 126:11 128:16,18,22 129:2,23,24 131:19 132:10 133:2,3,25 135:7 136:13 137:5 139:9,13,25 144:24 148:3 149:24,25 151:16 154:17,21 157:23 158:18 160:7 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. 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(713) 861-0203 none 206:7 nonetheless 340:4 nonexposed 271:18 Nonhazardous-type 32:24 nonpaint 34:15 nonresponsive 290:20 313:24 337:5 non-asbestos 6:7 261:14 300:1,4 301:2 302:7 307:6,16 308:14,23 309:1,9 321:17,25 322:8 323:1,12 330:12 non-asbestos-contain... 302:18 303:1 noon 101:9 norm 20:16 normal 82:22 109:11 145:17 165:18 174:2 normally 109:12 181:5 181:6 285:22 297:25 328:25 north 25:4 35:10 northern 20:20 23:18 39:7 69:5 northwest 38:11 321:15 322:22 Notary 350:23 noted 350:3 notes 19:7,9,11 52:6,10 55:13 71:14 89:18 166:16 290:3,4,5,6 294:10,15 312:23 347:10 nothing 8:20 30:12 129:4 197:13 309:5 notice 64:15 157:6 263:9 293:3 noticed 10:8 81:15 notices 257:8 342:7,11 342:23 November 5:18 7:14 166:16,17 279:22 308:21 328:2 329:21 number 17:25 21:15 25:23 31:7 46:16 54:2 55:21 123:1,7 124:17 125:6 127:4 127:20,22,24 129:3 136:5 138:4 144:16 146:2 147:5 151:6 153:15 156:22 166:18,23 167:11 169:24 170:1 183:8 183:13,14 184:17 185:10 188:14 190:5 197:22 198:1 203:24 204:19 206:1 210:12 216:17 222:16,17 228:17 230:16 231:1 232:19 240:6,15 244:4,9,10 258:12 261:4 273:9 284:11 296:10,12 298:11 299:21 312:11 313:9 313:9 314:25 316:6,7 319:22 320:11 323:21 324:11 327:8 327:25 336:4,6 347:9 numbered 1:18 numbers 123:10,11,17 123:19,21 128:3,6,13 156:6 182:19 183:6 185:2,23 186:16 189:12,16 190:4 192:4 204:2 210:10 255:7,19,20,22 256:1 319:8 numerous 20:16 29:22 75:3 163:12,12 Nuys 58:2 76:12,13 _________ O_________ 0 9:5 53:15 Oak 2:22 oath 350:14 object 42:5 150:7 199:11 238:16 263:5 272:4 282:16 290:19 314:20 objection 8:6 14:23 36:3 41:10,18 44:7 44:18 69:15,23 80:16 82:20 87:24 88:4 92:7,23 95:21 96:8 98:1,4 108:21 109:18 112:8 115:1 119:9,11 121:24 145:25 147:1 147:12 160:15 162:2 166:4,10,12 170:4 173:7 174:16 175:18 184:14,14 190:17 191:20 193:1 195:11 196:7 197:7,8,11,19 197:20 198:8,9 200:3 200:9,15 220:5 222:5 223:6 225:4 226:16 229:15 231:24 232:24 233:19 238:19 239:2 249:10 249:18 253:16 257:11,18 263:25 264:9,24 266:22 271:12 272:19 275:9 279:15 280:10 286:3 286:14 287:4 291:17 292:18 297:20 302:20 303:18 304:2 306:14 313:7,23 318:10 324:14 336:21,22 337:4,10 337:18,21 338:16 342:4,13 objections 8:4 objective 39:23 171:21 obtained 228:19 obviously 14:25 102:3 104:16 125:6 187:5 193:7 199:13 210:12 211:10 256:7 293:16 294:21 occasion 20:25 occupational 4:21 238:25 244:2,3 245:9 283:21 298:18 occurred 185:2 352:13 occurring 313:5 October 7:6 12:14 272:22 273:13 274:3 321:12 323:14 off 51:18,25 54:8 71:13 71:17,19 79:7 86:13 93:13 94:24 97:6 99:2 101:13,19 123:6 123:24 124:2,4 133:5 133:12,12 149:18 156:14 163:7 180:19 189:17 206:23 208:4 ' 209:8,10 211:20 221:2 225:14 231:18 239:18,22 275:12 282:24 286:1 287:16 299:14 317:7 334:7 348:23,24,24 offer 28:12 164:8 offered 27:2 offering 164:7 office 23:8 50:25 51:1,2 54:9,11,24 59:24 60:12 61:13,14,17,20 61:22 62:1,9,12,14 62:19 122:23 216:5 350:19 352:5 officer 352:3 353:11 officer's 351:24 353:15 offices 1:21 48:19 49:6 54:16 59:14,22 60:9 61:19 62:11,15 63:6 63:9 351:19 officially 209:16 officing61:7 oh 16:4 18:15 25:2 39:15 46:9 51:15 69:22 71:21 83:25 85:25 94:22 121:6 149:24 163:4,12,20 205:12 206:22 207:21 224:2 227:16 230:25 251:17 253:20 255:21 264:3 282:17 285:5 296:12 315:2 318:4 323:23 336:11 346:12 347:4 347:8 oil 79:16 80:5 okay 11:9 15:4 16:17 18:11 19:6 20:25 21:7,14 22:15,17 24:13 25:6 26:9,17 26:20 27:6,18 28:2 28:18 29:7,19 30:7 30:11,13 31:6,18 32:6,14 33:1,5,17 34:8,23 35:6,12,25 37:3,18 39:3,16,24 41:14,21 42:13 43:5 43:15 44:10,13,20 45:1,21 46:20 47:1,4 47:8,10,16 49:10 50:8,11 51:8,18,22 51:23 52:20,25 53:8 53:10,14,20 55:5,11 55:24 56:1,7,12,20 56:24 57:8,12,21,24 58:4,7,14,17 59:1,6,9 59:17 60:1,11,18 61:3,11,15,24 62:15 62:19,23 63:11,15,20 64:6,18 65:22 66:6 66:12,13,16,21 67:4 67:7,12,20 68:6,13 68:19 69:9,22 70:1 70:21 71:19,23 72:4 72:20 73:1,7,7,13,22 74:3,6 75:1,4,8,22 76:8,14,18 77:1,8,14 78:2,9,18 79:1,23 80:9,18 81:5,13,18 81:24 83:5,19,21 84:2,6,19 85:8,10 86:1,24 87:3,9,18 88:12,25 89:8,15 90:3,15,25 91:4,13 91:21,23 93:2,11 94:3,4,14 95:1,13,19 97:21 98:10,17,23 99:5,7,24 100:6,11 Page 20 100:17,25 101:7 I 102:11,24 103:10 104:1,6 108:17 109:15 110:2 111:9 111:16 112:11,14 113:3 115:11 116:7 117:3,13,23 118:3,9 118:21 119:1,6,13 120:1,5,7,13,23 i 121:4,20 122:8,18 ; 123:11,12 124:10 125:2,11,17,21 126:10,14 127:4,20 128:2,9,11,17,25 129:6,11 130:3,19,22 131:13,17,19 132:20 133:11,23 134:2,11 134:18 135:11 136:3 1 137:5,9,20,22 138:2 138:6,11,13 140:5 141:15,25 142:13,16 142:21 143:1,9,15 144:11 145:16 146:1 146:13,22 147:3 148:18,21 149:4,7,23 150:2,11,22 151:4,20 152:7,9,22 153:2,5 153:14 154:1,23 I I 156:1,7,19 157:4,14 157:21 158:17 159:11,22,24 160:5 160:18,21 161:3,5,15 161:22 162:17,19,24 163:19 164:18,22 165:13 166:14 167:8 167:13,20 168:1 169:17 171:9,15 172:5,22 173:13 174:22 176:14,15,20 176:24 178:14 179:4 179:9,15 180:11,20 181:4,12 182:12,17 182:22 184:22,24 186:17 187:8,15 189:22 190:1,12,19 190:21 191:2 192:2 192:16,22 193:10 194:13 195:1,6,19,21 196:1,24 197:15 198:4,19,22 199:3,17 200:12,23 202:24 203:6,16 204:4,9,15 204:18 205:2,25 206:12,19 207:18 208:10,19 209:6,11 210:15 211:11 212:2 214:1,7,22 215:19 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 Page 21 216:4,9,22,24 218:2 218:7 220:11,19 221:5,6,13,25 222:11 222:14 223:19,24 224:5,24 225:5,14 226:4,9,22 227:14 228:4 231:20 232:8 233:1,14 234:3,19 235:2 237:9,12 238:4 239:14 240:24 241:10,12,15 242:10 242:15,17 243:2,12 245:6,15 246:1,16 247:2,11 248:14 249:1,6 250:4 251:25 252:3,23,25 253:20 253:25 255:13 256:4 257:1,5,21,23 258:11 259:7,21 260:8 261:16 262:6 264:4,6 264:20 265:5,23 266:23 267:16,20 268:4,16,23 269:11 269:17 270:4,14 272:8 273:1,3,12 274:3,13,17 275:3,4 276:13,21,25 277:12 277:20,24 278:7 279:21 280:7 281:4,8 281:23 282:5,10,23 283:8,14,17,23 284:9 284:20 285:10 286:6 287:8 288:15,20 289:11,22 290:5,7 291:9,10 293:1 294:21,25 295:10,16 296:21 298:10,15 299:12,13,17,24 300:6 301:11 303:6,7 303:21 304:3,8,21 306:3,17,20 307:12 308:12 309:12,18,24 310:3 311:6,15,21,24 312:2,4 313:11 314:21 315:3,23 316:14 317:2,18,20 317:25 318:1,13,15 318:21 319:20,22 320:6 321:8,9,10,18 321:20 322:11,16 323:3 324:22 325:10 325:13 326:21,21 327:4,11,18,24 328:19 329:12,24 330:5 331:9,20 332:7 333:6 334:24 335:5,8 336:14,15 337:19 338:22 339:9,22 340:4 341:24 342:1 343:16 344:13 346:2 346:20 347:7,12 348:7,11 Oklahoma 12:7 15:19 36:22 39:1 52:21 61:23,25 217:13 218:4 307:25 old 95:24 231:2 297:4 306:2 321:1,1 once 21:3,6,21 34:8 88:22,22 91:6 141:16 168:5 234:12 290:15 291:22 one 8:6,15 11:19,20,22 12:14,20 13:13,21 15:2 20:17,25 21:1,2 21:4 23:3 30:7 31:3,7 31:21 32:8 33:3,8 43:7 46:25 47:14 48:6 51:23 52:11 53:19,22,23,25 55:25 58:5 59:24 61:17 62:9,17,17 66:15 67:15,15,21 68:3 70:5,11 71:8 78:19 78:23 80:1 81:9,12 86:15,16 91:17 93:24 94:12 99:16 101:22 105:25 107:20,21 109:1 121:2,6 122:16 124:16 126:14,17,19 126:20 127:12,21 128:18 130:12 131:1 131:2 136:4 137:3,6 137:9,12,16 142:11 142:16,22 144:7,11 145:22 146:5 147:4 148:12,18 149:12 150:11 152:3 154:25 155:4,8,10 156:24 159:1,13,15 161:22 161:23 164:23,24 167:14 169:19 170:2 170:5 171:21,25 172:17 173:15,15 175:10 176:25 178:21,25 179:10 187:16 188:7 194:13 202:7 206:2,14 208:19 211:23 218:11 220:16223:8 223:14 224:18 225:1 225:10,23 226:10,13 227:25 229:20 235:11 237:14,25 243:3,12,18 244:4,4 244:5,8,9,10,14 245:14 246:9,15 247:9 249:1,2,3 251:11 252:21 253:3 254:13,17,19 256:13 256:22,23,24 258:6 260:25 261:16 263:7 263:12 265:22,22 266:10,16 267:2,3,4 268:12,16 271:6 274:21 277:6 279:22 281:5 284:9 286:11 287:8 288:18,20 289:11,23 290:7 296:11,17 297:24 298:18,19 299:20,24 300:12,18,23 301:16 302:24 306:22 308:10 309:13,13,19 309:21 310:3 311:24 313:10 314:23 315:8 317:15,21 319:10 321:11,20 323:15 324:22 326:14,21,24 327:24,24 330:5 331:25 336:8 342:8,9 344:10 345:23 346:14 ones 36:1 57:10 58:8 71:10,11,17 123:15 125:21 137:14 143:16 146:6 154:9 163:10 170:20 193:21 200:21 204:9 228:2 248:20 250:15 251:12 275:1 334:3 one's 131:2 one-and-a-half 198:25 one-half 300:12 301:15 308:10 one-step 142:3 one-to-one 18:20 ongoing 259:9 only 15:2 21:6 28:14,14 30:7 33:25 47:8 59:24,24 74:21 86:10 91:1 94:2 97:1 102:2 107:20,20 109:7 110:17 118:4,16 122:16 125:21 126:3 131:8 136:15 144:23 146:9 154:21 164:22 165:19 168:5,11,11 170:1 172:14 181:9 183:12 192:7 193:21 197:12 200:11 201:3 201:4 204:13,16,20 206:10,17 212:9 217:18219:1 222:6 231:19 237:25 243:12,18 245:11 247:9 248:24 249:2,4 250:15 251:1 1,12 291:18 292:24 297:11 300:15 302:4 302:14 332:13 338:9 346:1 Ontario 54:15 55:4 76:15,17 202:7,12,22 202:24 203:8 274:22 307:1,8 onto 220:24,25 221:4 298:5 open 54:16,19 55:6 56:4,13 57:5 77:24 78:5 96:4,7 97:15 108:22 139:14,14 143:25 171:17 195:13 207:17 215:20 opened 16:9,11 49:11 54:23,25 102:6 139:3 141:16 172:18 207:11 209:14,15,16 214:11 opening 56:21 operate 87:2 115:7 117:8 171:11 208:7 operated 66:1 105:9 118:13 203:16 207:11 operates 86:25 operating 38:21 44:22 50:19 112:21 114:9 114:15 116:10 202:25 235:18 operation 24:1 31:17 56:14 58:12,15,21 76:20,22 97:20 104:7 116:14214:24 316:19 operational 38:6 286:12 operations 20:15 23:16 24:2 32:11 37:24 38:3 39:21 58:7 99:13 118:24 290:17 319:1 326:19 operator 313:14 operators 313:6,21 opinions 42:19 opportunity 10:16 13:24 14:3 16:24 17:6,11,25 18:2 20:7 i 20:22 124:22 294:22 \ opposed 30:3 32:3 96:22 246:5 j option 237:13 j oral 1:15 351:16 j Orchard 10:4 > order 167:2,3,5,18 5 168:4,5,16 170:24 f 178:7 179:13 180:19 i 222:8 229:1 ordered 89:16 167:12 j orders 171:12 f ore 59:6 f Oregon 36:2,6,8 39:4,6 52:16 321:16 organization 24:16 J 70:12 72:18 73:8 ? 174:2 250:17,22 \ 251:8 252:4,5,11,15 { 281:12 289:5,13,19 j 320:9 j organizations 250:25 i 251:7,9 289:9 \ original 95:8 116:22 284:16 351:24 353:10,13,16 ? originally 16:8 48:12 68:4 76:12 102:3 f 292:21 j originated 228:20 jj ornamental 32:3 \ f OSHA 5:13,15,21 6:6 j 222:7 228:9 232:2 239:5,6 242:6,11,23 \ 244:18 250:8 253:12 { 258:21,24,25 259:5 \ 261:19,25 262:17 ? 263:3,14 264:3,11,21 266:14 267:14,15 J j 271:4 273:17 274:16 ! 276:14 277:14,18 ( j 278:1,5,13 279:14,16 I 281:10 282:14 283:15 284:5,16,20 i 285:6,24 286:16,18 I 287:20 291:1,14 i 293:5 300:18 302:25 J 303:2,4,9 304:6 314:17 318:1,8 j 319:23 320:5 324:8,9 | 324:10,13,16,19 \ j 327:12,14 330:18,24 I 331:6 OSHA's 263:12 320:2 j other 11:3,12,14,16 ; 13:1114:4 17:12 i NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 18:5,8 19:7 23:15 25:19 28:16 29:4,13 31:20 36:1 39:20 43:6 48:8,23 49:3,5 50:1 58:4 61:2 62:15 63:8,15 67:2 69:13 69:13,20 70:18 72:5 73:20 74:22 75:2,3 85:5 90:23 91:23 92:6 93:3,19 96:4,15 97:2 100:13 103:16 106:15 107:2,4 112:6 114:18 116:10 117:17 118:19 119:3 119:6,8,8,18 120:23 121:15 125:19 126:18 131:10 135:5 136:3 137:14,18 138:2 144:23 145:20 146:6 148:13 151:23 152:25 153:1 154:8 157:7 158:7 160:22 161:6,22 163:4,5 164:2,13 165:7,22 166:7 168:4 170:25 172:9 173:4,25 178:22 180:2,3 181:7 181:14 188:4,13 190:2 196:2,4,13 218:18 220:6 221:2 221:18 222:12 223:13,22 225:1 228:2,19,20 232:3,19 240:4 243:3 245:2,4 245:6,15,17 247:23 247:25 248:12 249:20 253:3 256:17 259:23 260:1,6 273:5 276:25 277:4,4 281:4 282:13 287:8 288:2 288:20 289:8 292:13 295:25 297:13,17 301:5,8 305:15 307:13,21 308:3,13 311:25 323:3 335:18 336:16 343:20 344:10 347:9 348:9 others 12:17 188:1 200:22 202:3 210:17 225:8 253:6 otherwise 352:11 out 19:19 20:1,16 23:1 23:4 24:18,18 27:7 31:14 33:7 44:2 45:21 47:12 48:10 51:20 56:3 58:24 65:4 72:23 74:19 75:15 79:13 81:25 82:12 84:22 88:17,20 92:5,15,17,18 94:6 102:16 103:5,20 107:8 112:20,24 117:20 122:25 123:22 133:1,5,11,16 140:13 141:19 143:24 148:1 163:5 167:14,22 169:4,7 170:10 171:17 172:24 173:2,14,17 174:3 177:1,1 178:4 182:10 184:20 187:13 193:13,14 194:1200:5,19 208:7 210:16,19211:8 216:25 217:2 220:20 220:24 221:14 222:8 228:9 229:18 232:1 233:20 235:20,21 238:1 239:8 240:11 240:22 249:17 261:1 261:5,7,11,14 265:3 276:23 277:9 279:6 280:17,25 281:16,19 281:25 282:10 283:25 285:15 286:13,19 287:6 288:4 290:17 291:1 292:23 294:16,18 296:23 300:11,18,24 303:22 307:15,20 308:9,10 310:3,5,14 311:18 316:1 317:1 324:10 330:22 331:2 331:14,18 333:4 338:4,20,25 339:1,3 340:25 341:5,13 342:12 343:23 344:2 outcome 352:11 outlets 59:15 62:20 74:25 output 230:13 outside 13:9,10 17:19 31:20 33:19,20 34:7 37:9 66:21 69:12 70:12 91:23 171;1,3 287:24 301:5 327:6 oven 32:2 ovens 88:20 over 14:22 21:4 25:16 25:24 26:24 27:6,21 28:3 29:21 34:10 39:9 48:16 52:6 53:21 65:17 79:9,12 117:2 121:22,25 123:18 132:13,16 333:15 152:21 154:1 182:4 185:19 190:3 199:4,25 200:8,16,17 210:21 236:15 241:1 261:4 265:16 266:11 285:18 343:22 overall 169:2 280:25 overexposed 285:23 oversaw 24:1 oversee 61:11 62:20,21 overseeing 38:2 overseen 99:12 overtures 25:18 own 19:9 33:7,12,18,21 34:1 42:1066:16,19 66:24 70:6,9 73:11 75:16 85:5 106:4 164:5 171:21,22,22 172:9 180:23 237:23 271:21 288:11 300:24 owned 19:23 31:21 40:2 48:11 50:13 66:14,15,19 73:17 98:13 179:25 195:10 291:5 owner 173:18 ownership 23:25 24:1 104:10 owns 15:18 Oxnard 58:1 _________ P_________ P2:18 PA 268:25 Pacific 7:8 38:22 39:3,6 46:24 47:3,5 70:17 70:23 71:12 72:2,6 107:22 125:24 126:6 126:8 163:23 227:21 328:1 package 127:10 191:7 220:18 packaged 109:8,10 packaging 154:11 packing 78:4 Paco 4:12,14,19,20 5:8 5:12,12,14,14,16,20 5:22 6:4,7,17,19 7:6 7:7,14 11:2 19:24 51:7 65:17,19,20,21 65:21 66:2,3,4 68:1 68:23 71:7,10 91:21 93:22 100:3,5,9 101:2 103:13 104:22 105:1 106:16,22,23 Page 22 106:24,25 107:4 109:15 110:13 111:17 112:3,6,16 113:2,3,5 115:2 117:9,12,15,17 118:1 118:6,19,22,24 119:3 119:6,7,8,15,18,20 120:18 121:9,15,21 121:22 122:2 123:1,2 125:5,7,13,13,19 127:6,16,16 128:16 128:18,18,21 131:2 137:13 138:3 142:17 144:12,19 146:1 147:4 148:18 149:10 149:10 151:6 153:6 157:7 165:15,20 166:18 171:23 178:18,22 179:25 180:6,7,15 181:4,13 182:15 183:20 184:11 186:19,21 189:23 191:3,19 193:6,19,23 194:3 195:9 196:19 198:3 198:16 199:25 202:8 203:21 204:6 209:6 211:7,21 212:2 213:17,17 214:2,6 215:3 216:6 218:4,22 218:23 219:23 220:7 222:23,24 223:4 224:25 225:2,7,13 226:2 227:4 230:13 230:17 232:22 233:17 235:17 238:11 240:16 243:21 244:12,15,16 244:17 246:3,21 248:21 254:3,20 255:7,20 256:2,4 257:2,3 259:23 261:2 261:6,18 263:10 265:7 268:20,23,24 268:25 269:1,3,18 271:5 273:4 274:11 274:22 277:1 283:10 283:14,15 288:5 289:25 290:25 291:4 291:7 294:1 296:8,14 309:14,19 310:1,4,6 317:16 319:25 320:17 323:15 326:4 326:8 327:9 328:7 329:4,25 330:2,2,9 330:12,14 338:6 339:15 347:14 348:1 Paco's 114:12,13,13 309:25 Paco-Tex 137:14,15 pads 77:19,19 page 4:2 56:13 64:10 84:10 101:20 178:20 179:17 182:8,22 202:19,20 208:11,23 209:11 218:11 223:8 224:6 225:18 259:24 266:18 267:16,21 295:11 317:20 349:6 350:4 353:12 pages 78:23 108:1 111:15 202:6 220:12 295:10 310:11 pails 256:23,24 paint 2:17 4:8,16 5:5,9 9:17 22:9 24:7 26:11 29:17 30:20 32:2 33:16 34:16,17 48:4 48:2149:13,14,22,24 50:1 54:14 69:16 70:15,16 72:18 73:2 73:3,4 74:19,24,25 78:13,16 86:16,18 87:488:13,14 90:5 90:11,17 92:13,17 102:12,20 105:13 106:4 108:20 109:2,7 111:11,18 119:5,10 119:25 120:1,11,14 120:20,23 121:16 128:10 135:5,10 151:6,17 152:5,12,21 152:22,23,24 166:19 172:4 173:20 174:1 178:8,11 180:3,14 181:1,11 203:9,13 212:15,16 214:18,21 214:24 251:9 254:24 255:4,9,15,23 256:11 256:14,20 290:10 330:16 345:13 painted 152:20 painter 86:19 painting 108:15 110:9 110:12,20,22 111:3,6 111:12 114:3 173:18 173:22 175:24 176:6 176:16,24 177:2,7,13 235:14 322:13 paints 29:19 30:18,21 30:22,23,23,25 31:20 33:13,18,24 47:21 50:9,10 69:18 87:7 105:16 121:12 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 Page 23 176:25 179:25 214:17 254:25 255:17 330:15,24 331:4 pallets 178:8,11 Palm 53:17 Pam 9:4 Pamela 3:6 paper 132:25 133:4,7 133:16 139:14 papers 345:1 paperwork 104:17 par 202:20 paragraph 202:21 275:12 296:21 308:22 315:11 346:2 Parker 2:9 Parsons 2:21 part 23:12 38:6 43:9 44:4 53:7 67:8 81:1 103:24 113:20 114:6 116:4 149:9 162:15 165:14 169:14 170:11 179:19 181:9 181:10 190:9 196:22 198:11,16,17,20 203:4 231:16 235:17 255:17 258:22 266:14 273:19 284:16 288:11 305:2 311:22,22 323:2 329:23 330:25 particular 78:17 81:2 89:16 93:21 121:6 124:24 127:21,25 128:2,4 136:16 137:16 140:11 146:21 161:1,4,6 170:3 200:23 201:23 225:25 231:15 240:21 244:14 285:8 299:15 307:23 324:5 331:20 343:19 particularly 83:24 291:13 parties 8:23 352:3,7,10 353:18 partitioned 231:18 parts 63:15 party 351:21 passed 337:25 passes 301:23 passing 292:3 past 10:18,25 12:9 13:4 34:3 56:3 80:12 329:19 patching 66:7 227:20 paths 25:15 Patrick 16:17,18,19 28:18 pattern 131:4 patterns 134:7 135:21 paying 280:13 payment 246:22 peaked 216:25,25 peek 123:14 peel 133:11 233:8 pending 13:8 Pennsylvania 23:5,7 people 21:15 24:5 25:23 26:1 28:12 38:4,4 45:3,4,14,15 45:22 47:12 61:22 66:10 77:12 79:18 96:3 110:19 129:21 131:21 142:10 160:23,23 163:5 164:2,13 173:24 183:14 230:22 231:1 232:19 249:16,17 262:25 269:19 277:16 278:6 281:15 284:18 286:13 291:12 301:4 306:1 308:14 320:4 339:25 per 63:2 220:16 241:9 276:16 278:14 285:19 317:22 318:25 percent 40:6 41:5 184:1,7,13,16,21 185:18,20 186:5,14 186:23 187:4,5,9,22 189:4,7,14 391:6,8 192:5,24 195:3 197:14 210:13 261:12 300:12 301:16 302:3 303:13 308:11 percentage 40:4 186:12 190:14 192:8,15 195:1,24 300:7 percentages 261:12 performance 235:12 performed 136:13,16 period 19:23 117:24 118:18 121:17 232:7 236:15 237:20 267:6 277:17 285:18 335:9 343:22 periodically 226:7 perlite 87:8 90:13,22 92:18 perm 273:18 permanent 244:9 permissible 275:7 284:21 285:12 318:9 person 10:10,12 12:24 15:691:1293:13 173:19 238:2 298:5 298:20 299:14 316:15 332:1 350:15 personal 19:14,16 21:5 41:1642:6,1643:3 43:19 104:2 237:23 personally 20:22,24 21:3 161:10238:8 350:13 personnel 25:3 104:14 249:12,25 persons 14:15,20 18:5 18:23 44:14 72:5 229:21 perspective 198:11 peruse 333:16 Petaluma 20:21 Pfizer 2:20 9:7 phase 291:14 307:15 307:19 phased 261:5,7 phasing 210:15 217:2 Phillips 3:9 philosophy 70:4,5,8 83:16 110:8 114:3 235:17 phone 20:23 21:5 168:8 327:8 352:19 photo 83:23 87:3 95:17 162:11 photographs 111:17 123:1 124:12 127:5 130:20 154:3,17 157:22 161:23 photos 54:1 158:8 161:25 263:17 265:6 265:15 physical 116:16 262:24 pick 52:7 101:10 199:14 picked 53:22 116:18 225:1 Pickens 5:11 268:20 291:7 picking 94:11 230:5 picks 182:23 pickup 199:15 picture 54:5 75:4 84:8 90:3 129:22 143:4 pictures 158:10 273:16 piece 64:9 142:3 pieces 131:17 pigments 224:5,7 pin 230:14 Pine 98:6 pipefitting-type 278:15 pipeline 292:16 339:20 place 71:25 88:11 114:24 147:15 168:16223:16 274:16 283:12 285:7 310:4 313:5 320:24 334:16 335:10,12 337:24 340:6 346:25 placed 167:19 171:14 places 173:4 305:15 plaintiffs 1:17 2:2 8:24 351:22 Plaintiffs 7:16 315:3 316:8 plan 332:23 planning 23:9,12 plans 332:24 plant 49:9,12 50:17,18 88:12 92:22 101:22 103:6,8,21 106:3 116:18 118:23 119:5 120:9 164:25 165:4 172:19,20 206:9 209:15 215:19 234:14,17 238:3 245:4 246:22 247:8 247:14 258:6 267:12 272:25 274:22 280:25,25 282:6 285:8 288:10 291:7 299:6 324:17 327:9 330:7,13 plants 50:17,19 161:18 198:12 216:8 223:13 262:18 273:2 275:2 277:17 280:18 281:20 286:12 291:5 301:5 303:23 311:19 332:13 346:1 plaster-type 144:25 plastic 109:24 platinums 32:19 play 287:1 player 163:20 playing 286:23 please 10:1 45:13 101:25 126:2 166:24 277:23 280:11 310:12 316:6,17 320:12 323:22 327:8 336:5 pliable 322:17 plus 25:16 186:7 188:3 210:6,22,25 211:1 219:12,16 293:20 317:6 pneumoconiosis 244:21,22 245:9 Pohlenz 326:25,25 point 13:4 15:6 18:17 25:13 31:746:15 56:3 60:24 63:21 96:23 100:7,19 101:9 ' 124:16 125:24 150:23 151:12 155:25 171:25 180:11 193:8 211:9 221:14 228:8 234:14 234:21 242:19 249:14 254:13 : 262:24 272:6 275:20 295:10 304:18 331:17 340:21 341:7 points 34:3 Pollutants 316:21 Pollution 316:13 pools 133:1 pop 174:4,17 popularity 131:22 population 271:18 portion 40:2 110:15 111:2 ; portions 290:20 J position 19:22 27:18 j 45:12 87:19 ? positions 20:16 22:11 J 23:15 * possession 19:15,17 possibility 125:23 ) possible 93:9 268:3 Possibly 197:25 271:19 } post 2:22 103:13 249:1 1 potential 233:2,14,18 | 250:11 253:14 259:10 267:23 j 296:18 339:24 \ pottery 79:14 < poundage 198:18 J pounds 183:9 185:8,11 ! 197:24 198:7,14,25 ! 199:5,6 332:21 346:9 ? 346:10 powder 81:3 137:23 j 138:20,22 139:9 1 140:11 142:6 143:11 ! 143:16 146:23 147:8 ! 152:12,13 204:10,11 \ 205:18,24 216:15 J 219:11 234:5 255:11 J 255:15 332:22 346:9 , NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 Page 24 powdered 144:4 150:2 151:10 pre253:12 precaution 270:15 precautionary 264:15 preceding 350:16 precipitated 267:14 324:19 precipitating 324:4 precisely 144:20 preclude 320:3 precluded 301:12 307:21 predecessor 155:11 predicating 342:9 predominant 200:7 predominantly 39:4 preexisted 214:24 prefer 42:11 preference 136:18 143:22 170:13 322:10 preferences 170:14 preferred 176:4 201:24 308:1 preform 179:20 premade 149:3 premises 98:21 102:9 premiums 280:19,20 premix 109:20 premixed 144:5 preparation 18:9 prepare 17:18 prepared 56:8 80:14 221:23 267:10 preparing 17:13 274:4 351:24 353:15 preprinted 86:12 180:13,14,15,16 presence 49:5 present 31:18 122:3 297:5 313:9 Presentation 6:3 293:16 presented 10:13 presently 11:24 283:20 preservatives 78:4 president 12:3 16:20 20:15 24:21,25 26:22 27:21,22 28:1,7 37:24 38:11,13,14,23 39:16 46:14,19,20 53:18 60:8 61:7 65:11,13 99:14,21 258:15 268:20 269:6 269:18 291:7 332:5 345:25 pressure 273:21 presume 294:9 presuming 55:14 61:6 65:1 209:1 281:23 pretty 35:23 79:24 86:24 105:2 107:25 127:10 138:6 170:17 170:21 171:11,13 184:18 219:22 258:13 270:13 293:17 294:9 prevent 313:16 314:7 prevention 312:6 314:24 previous 327:12 previously 112:21 222:18 price 40:9 85:21 86:11 86:17,22 174:20 176:13 297:7,10,18 prices 86:6 pricing 85:21,23 86:2 200:25 primarily 11:1 15:2 19:21 23:4,23 30:24 32:23 35:13 39:18 76:2 77:4 108:14 110:23 113:11 145:2 148:7 177:5 181:11 194:11 233:4 primary 170:21 prime 97:1 192:10 principal 15:6 201:19 principally 29:17 69:5 83:3 102:12 print 170:23 printed 64:7 130:7 220:25 221:4,21 222:10 273:24 prior 13:24 14:16 16:9 16:25 17:4 18:3,4 20:15 25:14 27:15,24 28:1 32:8 50:8 104:7 105:1 107:6,10 128:22 157:11,20 159:2,9,15 160:3,17 160:20 207:24 214:20,23 230:7,12 231:23 238:3,11 239:9 242:6,11,22,23 243:13 245:7 246:22 247:11 253:12,20,22 257:13,22 262:5,6,15 272:3 277:18 278:11 281:10 283:24 292:1 292:22 299:20 320:4 326:6 private 22:3 privately 39:25 40:2 Pro 214:17 probably 12:12,15 13:21 15:1 20:8 21:1726:13 55:14 67:8 78:8 103:15 120:8 122:6 126:25 128:7 130:18 144:7 148:4 155:15 181:8 182:11 186:14 211:24 220:23 234:16 238:7 250:20 280:3,23 307:9 326:19 problem 13:14236:19 271:2 303:23,24 problems 51:16 236:16 . 243:8,15 245:17 247:7 250:11 266:19 267:22 295:1 304:4 323:17 procedure 1:23 113:21 168:9 235:18 336:1 procedures 282:13 proceed 9:18 proceeding 352:10 proceedings 18:10 process 59:3 84:7,17,20 97:15 135:16 286:15 309:10,11 processed 92:2,22 93:10,20 224:22 processes 223:16 processing 59:7 89:25 96:21 106:8 131:15 171:12 Proco 227:15 produce 33:18 produced 1:16 115:14 157:20 228:18 product 5:3 11:19 30:16 31:12,16,20 33:7,16 66:22 69:11 69:13 73:19 76:6 80:20 81:9 85:4 88:23 89:14,23,25 91:15 93:8 96:6 97:25 98:3,14 100:8 101:2 105:22 106:2 111:10 112:17 113:9 116:24 117:17,25 118:4,19 119:3,7,8 119:15,18 120:20 121:10,21,22 122:2,6 122:11,17 125:14 127:2,6,18,25,25 128:12 129:3,7 136:16 144:20 145:4 147:21,22 148:34 149:2 150:25 151:24 152:2 153:15 154:3,8 155:17 156:21 157:7 157:15 162:11,25 164:4,19 165:23 166:7,19 167:21 170:3 171:17 173:5 173:20 174:5 175:13 175:25 179:23 181:21 182:6 183:9 183:16,17,20,21,25 184:11 186:1,8,18,19 187:1,2,14 188:18,25 189:1 190:15 192:6 192:10,17,18,20 193:15,19 194:19 195:9 196:9,18,19 197:6,14,17,17,24 198:3,3,5 199:25 204:17,21 206:2,11 206:13,16 209:3,23 210:6,19,22,25 211:4 211:7 212:24 213:5,7 213:18 214:14 215:3 216:6,12 218:21 219:17,18 221:18,23 223:20 224:15 225:7 225:10 227:4 230:17 232:9,22 233:4,5,11 233:17 234:20,22 235:5,11,13,15,21 238:12 240:16 241:2 241:3,9 247:8 251:1 254:4,24 256:4,13 257:5 259:3,4 261:2 261:10,18 262:12 263:15 265:23 273:6 278:7 279:13,17 296:18 297:15 301:2 301:5 302:12,13,16 302:17,18,24 303:8 304:5,11,19,25 305:4 305:5,12 306:2,6,7 306:11,18 307:6,10 307:20 308:5,24 309:6,9 310:1,16,21 321:21 323:1 328:22 329:1 335:1,23 338:5 338:6,14 340:2,11,15 341:9,20 342:6,9,10 342:24 343:14 344:7 344:13,16 345:21 production 4:16,23 5:16,22 6:4 101:23 m3 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. 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140:22 145:3 258:14 282:21 Quigley 2:20 9:7 Quik-Set 144:14,15,19 144:22 145:14 149:13,14 150:11 154:22 180:6,7 quit 118:21 234:23 325:17 342:6,17 348:11 quite 31:5 75:13 90:3 95:25 R R 1:12,154:4 8:189:5 53:15 349:3 350:1,7 350:13 351:11,15 Radiant 155:4 radius 172:11 railcars 199:21,22 raised 22:2 ramifications 293:18 Randall 3:3 range 317:21 rate 189:3 rates 86:9 rather 99:4 140:22 333:18 ratio 190:7 192:5 raw 4:20 33:5,6,18 34:4 59:6 87:21 89:2 89:13 91:1 97:10 105:6 136:23 196:12 222:22 223:1,2,3 224:1 225:12,23 226:8 252:21 253:4 257:9 260:3 261:9 297:5,22 328:21 ray 271:22 Re 5:12,14,20 reacting 323:4 read 18:3 55:11 79:5,5 79:7,16 110:16 123:6 143:7 149:12 157:17 162:4 203:6 256:21 263:19 264:10 265:15 268:1 275:11 275:15 288:3 292:8 292:19,20 294:22 295:25 296:8,19 297:9 308:12 313:8 314:2 318:12 329:16 340:21 350:1 readily 129:22 169:10 213:11 reading 182:12 244:6 275:13 278:25 280:16 ready 8:10,13,14 9:18 9:19 71:21 142:8 143:13 283:4 311:13 311:14 317:6 ready-mix 129:24 142:20,21 143:21 144:8,9 148:20,25 203:25 204:6 205:5 205:10,17 216:14 219:11 221:9 332:22 346:10,12,17 real 21:17,18 23:9 75:21 108:1,17 123:14,25 124:2 155:14 190:3 207:4 220:11 266:24 267:19 268:17 282:21 298:17 realize 228:8 really 25:2 41:11 58:2 64:17,20 68:20 77:5 77:21,25 89:19,20 95:22 112:14 139:4 141:4 143:22 145:19 155:15 161:14 166:6 182:9,11 190:10,18 190:20 192:8 201:3 232:3 239:10 250:23 300:15 321:2,3 348:15 reason 42:17 67:10 96:24 114:6 115:25 128:2 159:24 160:8 160:11 161:11,12,17 162:1,14 170:19 188:14 190:6,12 191:14 200:23 201:23 237:9 242:5 253:1 281:4 292:14 313:12 349:6 reasonable 174:19 reasons 29:4,4 42:21 43:17 44:3 143:19 169:20 213:3 309:23 344:15 353:12 rebrand 72:16 164:20 rebranded 70:19 71:11 72:6 125:23 126:6,12 164:1,10,14 227:22 rebranding 70:15,22 71:24 72:18,21 107:14 164:2,17,23 rebrands 164:5 recall 18:25 70:25 71:13 83:15 89:19 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203 Page 26 124:24 125:22 130:3 155:3,8 164:22,23 182:10,11 184:17 196:13 207:12,22 209:10 211:20 214:13 240:20 251:12 254:15 264:16 295:8 321:3 330:21 347:9,10 recalled 309:18 received 229:6 recent 15:1 332:19 recently 72:16 83:17 169:9 299:5 recess 52:2 101:15 124:6 156:16 206:25 239:24 283:1 317:9 334:9 recognized 238:13 recollection 56:19 97:19 125:17 126:7 142:9 165:7 recommendations 260:10,11,12 315:7 324:23 reconfirm 316:17 record 1:24 8:16,23 52:1,4 101:14,17 123:25 124:5,8 156:15,18 206:24 207:2 210:22 215:10 217:7 226:8 239:18 239:23 240:1 282:25 283:3 307:4 317:8,11 334:8,11 348:24,25 351:16 352:4,7 recorded 19:6 records 92:9 96:1,4 103:16,22 104:13 115:18,20 162:15 169:3 191:13 192:14 192:18 193:7 195:12 195:20,24 200:10 207:7 209:17 213:11 215:8 217:8 218:17 '222:20 231:12 236:4 249:23 250:2 348:16 reduce 59:7 274:9 324:23 reduced 150:24 188:12 reducing 210:16 reduction 58:17 59:1,4 276:14 318:8 refer 134:10 reference 58:1 301:22 REFERENCED 4:7 5:2 6:2 7:2 referring 55:17 308:19 308:20 refers 327:14 reflect 115:18 221:8 reflected 96:2 212:3,8 224:24 226:11 reflecting 210:5 273:3 reflects 210:22 reformulated 188:4 reformulating 296:18 REFRACTORIES 1:4 351:4 353:4 refresh 145:9 regard 10:13 229:8 regarding 12:11 17:1 18:1 96:5 101:21 181:17 221:23 232:1 253:14 regardless 271:2 Region 50:20 regional 23:8 26:24 30:2 35:3,4,7 47:20 regionally 163:15 regional-type 30:6 regions 308:1 Regis 130:11,16 222:4 223:8,10,13 register 259:18 324:2 regs267:14 278:1 279:14 300:18 regula 259:10 regular 18:17 86:14 176:24 177:7 262:23 288:12 311:20 319:19 regulated 171:6 239:7 300:9 344:16 regulating 330:18 regulation 242:25 259:11 264:16 291:23 336:20,24 regulations 242:11 258:17 259:18 263:9 267:15.272:10 273:18 277:21 284:21 287:20 291:15 300:24 ' 302:25 344:21,22 345:10 relabeled 70:20 relate 222:24 335:1 related 11:1 13:13,19 232:5,6 233:17 239:11 243:14 244:11 247:7 343:23 352:9 relates 63:18 107:14 221:17 262:16 relating 10:20 relationship 27:1 187:7 198:18 relationships 162:9 relatively 39:9 relayed 343:17 release 235:6,6 242:13 310:16 released 40:5 232:23 234:9 258:23 303:5 releases 88:23 262:1 relevant 42:21 89:12 96:11 231:19 245:12 252:9 274:16 292:9 religious 22:5 relocated 219:9 relocating 218:8 relocation 218:14 rely 89:11 remain 43:16 remaining 266:11 341:16 remember 74:8 96:12 181:18 298:21 299:5 314:9 329:13 remembered 102:18 remodeling 320:23 removal 343:21 remove 312:17 removed 150:24 removing 151:1 312:15 320:25 renovation 82:19 rent 83:12 renting 83:16 rep 21:12 173:15,17 174:7 178:3,7 repackage 70:11 90:1 repair 82:18 repairs 320:15,18,19 repeat 45:13 280:11 replace 46:16 replaced 54:20 replacement 73:5 100:18 260:1,6 reply 315:11,17 report 5:8 46:21 50:23 258:7 267:10 311:21 312:10 315:18 318:14 reported 99:21 268:13 reporter 1:20 9:19 311:11,14 352:5 REPORTER'S 351:11 reporting 291:13 reports 258:6 290:9 317:20,21 repository 96:9 103:17 103:24 115:21 154:12 162:15 182:10 195:13,18 231:4,6,8,17 249:16 293:12 represent 8:12 representative 10:10 10:19 11:4 14:16,21 160:21 193:14 230:9 230:11,20 312:6 314:24 315:15 representatives 232:16 259:24 290:24 293:25 represented 11:6 representing 15:3 reps 167:15 172:17 requested 252:22 308:23 requesting 168:25 required 263:3 313:15 requirement 237:11 254:12,13 266:14 284:16 311:8 requirements 5:13,15 5:21 221:19,20 222:8 259:5 263:12 264:11 277:10 283:15 286:8 292:21 304:20 308:4 320:3 352:12 requiring 314:7 requisition 167:22 resale 70:12 328:11,24 research 97:18 260:24 researched 97:13 resell 90:1 92:18 174:18,21 330:1 reserve 8:4 348:20 reside 20:19 residential 31:1 134:18 resold 89:6 328:13 329:2,4 Resource 320:8 resources 7:3 16:21 respect 10:11 11:10 14:12 17:12 19:8,18 20:3 25:19 34:2 42:18 60:18 61:5 63:23 88:25 104:2,14 107:13 126:16 129:1 159:22 177:14 182:19 183:6 197:2 198:22 204:6,24 207:7 228:5,10,15 232:8 233:1,14 236:3 237:17 238:22 245:15 246:1 250:10 259:9,10 260:9,13 263:23 271:21 278:3 284:5 285:7 293:4 312:10318:7 321:5 336:19 338:6,23 respectively 213:24 respiration-type 290:14 respirators 262:22 271:24,25 272:2,10 313:6 responded 263:2 responding 242:6 response 273:14 324:9 330:17 responsibilities 22:24 23:19 39:18 62:25 responsibility 38:10 responsible 23:23 34:15 292:5 responsive 229:14 responsiveness 8:4 263:6 272:5,7,20 rest 64:1 79:5 107:24 267:9 298:24 restencil 222:1 restrict 264:13 restricting 258:22 restrictions 261:20 291:16 292:15 330:19 result 182:24 259:2 260:24 261:25 263:14 264:20 271:3 273:25 282:8 283:22 290:22 291:15 294:12 298:6 320:2 338:12 343:3 resulted 297:1 324:12 results 277:3 resupplying 168:8 retail 62:20 63:12 66:23 74:9 83:10 85:2,19 86:1,8,14,17 108:18 109:1,11 110:10 171:18 172:7 retailers 333:2 retained 49:4 103:17 retains 115:18 retardant 278:15 retire 24:12 retired 20:20 24:11 48:4 52:16 53:2,17 retirement 40:12 43:9 43:13,16,19,20,24 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. 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(713) 861-0203 Page 38 NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. (713) 861-0203