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2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 1 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF WISCONSIN 2 GREEN BAY DIVISION 3 APPLETON PAPERS, INC., and 4 NCR CORPORATION, 5 Piaintiffs, 6 vs. Case No. 2:08-CV-00016-WCG 7 GEORGE A. WHITING PAPER COMPANY, et al., 8 Defendants. 9 10 NCR CORPORATION, 11 Piaintiff, 12 vs. Case No. 08-CV-0895-WCG 13 KIMBERLY-CLARK CORPORATION, 14 et al. , Defendants. 15 16 17 18 Videotape Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D. 19 Wednesday, August 19th, 2009 20 9:00 a.m. 21 at 22 HUSCH BLACKWELL SANDERS, LLP 23 190 Carondelet Plaza Clayton, Missouri 24 25 Reported by Rosanne E. Pezze, RPR/CRR Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 2 1 Videotape Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Page 1 WATER PCB-00043888 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 2 Ph.D., a witness in the above-entitled action, taken 3 at the instance of the Defendants, pursuant to the 4 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, pursuant to 5 Subpoena, before Rosanne E. Pezze, RPR/CRR and Notary 6 Public, State of Wisconsin, at 190 Carondelet Plaza, 7 Clayton, Missouri, on the 19th day of August, 2009, 8 commencing at 9:00 a.m. and concluding at 2:09 p.m. 9 10 APPEARANCES: 11 DeWITT ROSS & STEVENS, S.C., by Mr. Dennis P. Birke 12 Capitol Square Office Two East Mifflin Street, Suite 600 13 Madison, Wisconsin 53703-2865 Appeared on behalf of the Plaintiff 14 Appleton Papers, Inc. 15 SIDLEY AUSTIN, LLP, by Mr. Eric W. Ha 16 One South Dearborn Street Chicago, Illinois 60603 17 Appeared on behalf of the Plaintiff NCR Corporation. 18 ROBINS, KAPLAN, MILLER & CIRESI, LLP, by 19 Ms. Ian M. Coni in 2800 LaSalle Plaza 20 800 LaSalle Avenue Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402-2015 21 Appeared on behalf of Defendants Georgia-Pacific Consumer Products LP, 22 Georgia-Pacific LLC, Fort lames Operating Company and Fort lames Corporation. 23 GEORGIA-PACIFIC, 24 Mr. John C. Childs 133 Peachtree Street, NE 25 P.O. Box 105605 Atlanta, Georgia 30303-5605 Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 3 1 HUSCH BLACKWELL SANDERS, LLP, by Mr. Adam E. Miller 2 190 Carondelet Plaza, Suite 600 St. Louis, Missouri 63105 3 Appeared on behalf of Dr. E. Scott Tucker and Monsanto Company. 4 Page 2 WATER PCB-00043889 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton DAVIS & KUELTHAU, S.C., by 5 Mr. Kevin 3. Lyons 111 East Kilbourn Avenue, Suite 1400 6 Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53202 Appeared on behalf of the Defendant 7 Neenah-Menasha Sewerage Commission. 8 HUNSUCKER GOODSTEIN & NELSON, P.C., by Ms. Anne Lynch 9 5335 Wisconsin Avenue N.W., Suite 360 Washington, DC 20015 10 Appeared by phone on behalf of the Defendant and Third-Party Plaintiff Menasha 11 Corporation. 12 von BRIESEN & ROPER, S.C., by Ms. Susan E. Lovern 13 411 East Wisconsin Avenue, Suite 700 Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53202 14 Appeared by phone on behalf of Defendant CBC Coating, Inc. 15 BALLARD SPAHR ANDREWS & INGERSOLL, LLP, by 16 Mr. Ronald M. Varnum 1735 Market Street, 51st Floor 17 Philadelphia, PA 19103-7599 Appeared by phone on behalf of Defendant 18 P.H. Glatfelter Company. 19 HAYNSWORTH SINKLER BOYD, PA, by Mr. John P. Boyd 20 1201 Main Street, Suite 2200 P.O. Box 11889 21 Columbia, South Carolina 29211-1889 Appeared by phone on behalf of Third-Party 22 Defendant U.S. Paper Mills Corporation. 23 ALSO PRESENT: Mr. John Niehaus Videographer, Midwest Litigation Services 24 25 Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 4 1 INDEX EXAMINATION PAGE 2 By Ms . Coni in.................................................................................. 7, 133 3 By Mr. Lyons.................................................................................. 74, 115 By Mr . Bi rke.................................................................................. 75 , 117 4 By Mr. Miller........................................................................... 148 5 6 EXHIBITS 7 Page 3 WATER PCB-00043890 2009- 08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton EXHIBIT NO.. PAGE NUMBER 8 No. 895-A Notice of Videotape Deposition of E. Scott 9 Tucker...............................................................................8 No. 895-B February 27, 1967 letter from R. Emmet Kelly to 10 Dr. M.J. Thomas (Bates MONSFOX 88 through 114)................................................................................. 12 11 No. 895-C Memorandum, December 9th, 1968 from Elmer Wheeler to W.R. Richard (Bates MONSFOX31956 to 12 31957)............................................................................ 20 NO. 895-D Memo dated March 4, 1969 (Bates GPFOX30664 to 13 30665)............................................................................ 24 NO. 895-E Memo from Elmer Wheeler to Mr. Richard, October 14 21, 1968 (Bates MONS097123)............................ 28 NO. 895-F National Cash Register Customer Visit, June 1, 15 1970 (Bates PHGNCR-2003397 to 398). . 29 NO. 895-G March 28, 1969 memo (Bates MONSFOX97017 to 16 97018).............................................................................31 NO. 895-H Multipage document from R.E. Keller to W.B. 17 Papageorge (Bates GPFOX45395 to 45400). 34 NO. 895-1 Memorandum, February 25, 1969 (Bates 18 MONSFOX97076)....................................................... 41 NO. 895-J Memo dated November 20, 1969 (Bates GPFOX37924 19 through 37926)....................................................... 44 NO. 895-K Memo dated December 23, 1969 (Bates 20 MONSFOX98648 through 98649).............................51 NO. 895-L Memo dated December 3, 1969 21 (Bates GPFOX144003)......................................... 54 22 NO. 895-M Document dated October 28, 1969 (Bates MONSFOX96416)....................................................... 56 23 NO. 895-N Memo from R.A. Lidgett to Tucker, December 24, 1969 (Bates MONSFOX99147)........................... 61 24 NO. 895-0 Document dated January 30, 1970 (Bates GPFOX54309).............................................................. 62 25 Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 5 1 EXHIBITS (continued) 2 NO. 895-P Multi page document (Bates MONSFOX88213 through 216)........................................................................... 68 3 NO. 895-Q Document dated March 17, 1970 (Bates MONSFOX134).............................................................. 68 4 NO. 895-R Document dated September 11, 1968 (Bates GPXFOX45556 through 45579)........................... 86 5 NO. 895-S Document dated December 30, 1968 (Bates MONSFOX00097275 and 74).................................. 89 6 NO. 895-T Document dated January 23, 1969 (Bates MONSFOX00097236 and 237)........................... 93 7 NO. 895-U Memo dated March 6, 1969 (Bates MONSFOX00097200 through 202). . . .96 8 NO. 895-V Memo dated March 13, 1969 (Bates GPFOX00037129 through 130)............................ 98 9 NO. 895-W Letter dated April 15, 1969 (Bates MONSFOX00089276 and 277)........................... 100 10 NO. 895-X Memo dated May 13, 1969 (Bates GPFOX00039483 Page 4 WATER PCB-00043891 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton through 485)....................................................... 103 11 No. 895-Y 2-9-70 letter with attachment (noBates numbers)................................................................... Ill 12 No. 895-Z Memo dated March 1, 1974 from W.B. Papageorge (Bates MONSFOX00029468 and 469). . .126 13 No. 895-AAHearing Held August 28 and 29, 1975 (Bates NCRFOX0281394 through 0281469). . . 129 14 No. 895-BBLetter dated 2-27-67 (Bates GPFOX30433)133 No. 895-CC Memo dated 11-17-69 by Cumming Paton (Bates 15 GPFOX58736 through 737)........................... 135 No. 895-DD Memo dated 2/12/71 (Bates PHGNCR2005292 through 16 2005296).............................................................. 141 No. 895-EE January 5, 1971 letter (Bates NCR-FOX-563950 17 through 51).............................................................143 18 19 (Original exhibits attached to Original. Copies of exhibits are attached.) 20 21 22 23 24 25 Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 6 1 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 2 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're on the record. 3 Today's date is August 19th, 2009, and the time is 4 9:00 a.m. This is the videotape deposition of Dr. E. 5 Scott Tucker in the matter of Appleton Papers, Inc. 6 versus George A. Whiting Paper Company, Case 7 No. 2:08-CV-00016-WCG in the U.S. District Court for 8 the Eastern District of Wisconsin, Green Bay 9 Division. 10 This deposition is being held at Husch 11 Blackwell Sanders in St. Louis, Missouri. The 12 reporter's name is Rosanne Pezze. My name is John 13 Niehaus. Page 5 WATER PCB-00043892 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 14 Will counsel please identify 15 themselves for the record. 16 MS. CONLIN: Jan Coni in from Robins Kaplan 17 Miller & Ciresi, counsel for Georgia-Pacific. 18 MR. CHILDS: John Childs from 19 Georgia-Pacific. 20 MR. LYONS: Kevin Lyons, Davis & Kuelthau, 21 for the Neenah-Menasha Sewerage Commission. 22 MR. HA: Eric Ha from Sidley & Austin for 23 NCR Corporation. 24 MR. BIRKE: Dennis Birke of Dewitt Ross & 25 Stevens for Appleton Papers. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 7 1 MR. MILLER: Adam Miller from the law firm 2 of Husch Blackwell Sanders on behalf of Dr. Tucker 3 and Monsanto Company. 4 VIDEOGRAPHER: And if there's anyone on the 5 phone. 6 MR. VARNUM: Ron Varnum from Ballard Spahr 7 for P.H. Glatfelter Company. 8 MS. LYNCH: Anne Lynch from Hunsucker 9 Goodstein & Nelson on behalf of Menasha Corporation. 10 VIDEOGRAPHER: if you could please swear in 11 the witness. 12 E. SCOTT TUCKER, having been first duly 13 sworn on oath, was examined and testified as follows: 14 EXAMINATION 15 BY MS. CONLIN: 16 Q Good morning, Doctor. Could you state your full name Page 6 WATER PCB-00043893 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 17 for the record. 18 A Yes. My full name is Earl Scott Tucker, III. 19 Q And where do you currently reside? 20 A I live in -- near Greenville, South Carolina in a 21 town called Liberty. 22 Q And are you currently employed, sir? 23 A I have a real estate business and I have a consulting 24 business, but I'm self-employed in both of those. 25 And I should have mentioned that I also have a hay Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 8 1 and horse farm that is also a commercial operation. 2 (Deposition Exhibit No. 895-A marked for 3 identification.) 4 BY MS. CONLIN: 5 Q Thank you, Doctor, if you could pass those down. 6 One more. 7 Dr. Tucker, I've handed you what's 8 been marked as Exhibit 895-A, which is a Notice of 9 Videotape Deposition of E. Scott Tucker and attached 10 is a subpoena. Do you see that, sir? 11 A Yes, sir. Yes, ma'am. I'm sorry. 12 Q And you understand that you are appearing today 13 pursuant to a subpoena that's been issued? 14 A Yes, which I received. 15 Q And this involves a case in Wisconsin involving the 16 Fox River. Are you aware of that? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Are you represented by counsel here today? 19 A Yes. Page 7 WATER PCB-00043894 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 20 Q And who is that? 21 A My counsel is Adam Miller. 22 Q And did you speak with me prior to your deposition? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Did you speak with plaintiffs' counsel prior to your 25 deposition? Counsel for NCR -- Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 9 1 A Yes. 2 Q -- or Appleton Paper. 3 A Yes. 4 Q And with whom did you speak? 5 A At NCR? 6 Q Yes. 7 A I don't recall the names. It was a teleconference 8 call yesterday, and I'm sure the names can be made 9 available. Adam, do you know? 10 MR. MILLER: Dennis and - 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. It was the gentlemen 12 who are at the table. Okay, excellent. 13 BY MS. CONLIN: 14 Q And, could you describe your educational background, 15 Dr. Tucker. 16 A Yes, ma'am, I can. I received an associate's degree 17 from the University of Michigan Extension in 1961 in 18 chemistry and mathematics, and I went from there to 19 Michigan State University in East Lansing, Michigan 20 where I received a bachelor's degree in analytical 21 chemistry. 22 From there I went to the University of Page 8 WATER PCB-00043895 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 23 Iowa in Iowa City, Iowa where I received a Ph.D. in 24 analytical organic chemistry. The dates on those 25 degrees were 1961, 1963 and 1968 when the degrees Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 10 1 were awarded. 2 Q And what was the subject of your Ph.D. dissertation? 3 A My Ph.D. dissertation was entitled "An Analytical 4 Investigation of Some Mono-2-Aza Aerial Hydrazones." 5 Q What did you do once you obtained your Ph.D.? 6 A Well, just prior to obtaining the Ph.D., I 7 interviewed and looked for a job, and I also thought 8 about doing postdoctoral work, and I decided I wanted 9 to go into industry and really begin working. 10 During the interviews I met with a 11 Dr. Robert E. Keller at Monsanto and eventually I 12 accepted a job with Monsanto here in St. Louis. 13 Q And when was that? 14 A That would be in 1967. 15 Q And to which division of Monsanto were you assigned 16 when you joined in 1967? 17 A Dr. Robert Keller was the manager of the applied 18 sciences section, which provided analytical support 19 for the -- Monsanto's organic division. 20 Q And what type -- what do you mean by organic 21 division? 22 A It was the division that was primarily responsible 23 for all organic products, except for the agricultural 24 and -- well, that's good enough. 25 Q And where was that located? Page 9 WATER PCB-00043896 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 11 1 A It was located on South 2nd Street in St. Louis, 2 Missouri, at the Queeny plant, by the way. I'm 3 sorry. 4 Q And did there come a time, Dr. Tucker, when you 5 became aware of certain PCB research of Jensen and 6 Widmark - 7 A Yes. 8 Q -- out of Sweden. When was that? 9 A I believe it was in probably late 1967 after I had 10 joined Monsanto and I had sort of completed the first 11 assignment that I was given. 12 Q Let me back up a second. What was your first 13 assignment when you joined Monsanto? 14 A When I joined Monsanto, I was assigned as a senior 15 research chemist to a Dr. Martin Dedric who was the 16 group leader of the spectroscopy group. And my first 17 assignment was to establish a technique called atomic 18 absorption spectroscopy in their laboratories by 19 purchasing the equipment, setting it up and teaching 20 everybody, including myself, how to operate it. 21 Q Okay. And shortly after you completed that work you 22 became aware of the Jensen and Widmark work out of 23 Sweden? 24 A That's correct. 25 MS. CONLIN: if you could mark this, Ms. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 Page 10 12 WATER PCB-00043897 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 1 Court Reporter. 2 (Deposition Exhibit No. 895-B marked for 3 identification.) 4 BY MS. CONLIN: 5 Q I've handed you, Dr. Tucker, what's been marked as 6 deposition Exhibit 895-B, which is a February 27, 7 1967 letter from R. Emmet Kelly to a Dr. M.J. Thomas 8 at National Cash Register, and it comprises MONSFOX 9 Bates Nos. 88 through 114. 10 if you could take a look, Dr. Tucker, 11 at the second page and subsequent pages. Is that the 12 Jensen and Widmark original paper? 13 A Yes. I think it's actually a rendition of a lecture 14 that was given, but it's the basis for the 15 original -- for the original paper which was 16 eventually published. 17 Q And what did you understand Jensen and Widmark to be 18 studying and concluding? 19 A My understanding was that Widmark, who I believe was 20 the director of the institute, and Soren Jensen, who 21 was a chemist or a person like myself at that 22 institute, were looking at environmental samples for 23 chlorinated hydrocarbons in general, and that this 24 particular specific paper dealt with the fact that 25 they had identified some unidentified peaks in gas Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 13 1 chromatographs with electron capture detectors that 2 had been seen by residue analysts for a long period Page 11 WATER PCB-00043898 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 3 of time, and nobody knew what they were, and they had 4 identified them tentatively as being polychlorinated 5 biphenyls. 6 Q Is that also known as PCBs? 7 A Yes, ma'am. 8 Q And why was this of interest to Monsanto? 9 A It was explained to me at that time that Monsanto 10 manufactured some products called Aroclors, which was 11 the primary name that was used for them, and that 12 those Aroclors were mixtures of isomers that were 13 known as polychlorinated biphenyls from a chemistry 14 viewpoint. 15 Q And what were you asked or tasked to do when 16 presented or learned about the work by Jensen and 17 Widmark? 18 A Dr. Keller asked me to review the work and to offer 19 him what I thought about the work after -- from an 20 analytical chemistry viewpoint, obviously -- after I 21 had reviewed it, and that there was interest in it 22 and that we may -- might be asked to duplicate the 23 work in our laboratories to validate it. 24 Q And did you undertake that work, Dr. Tucker? 25 A I was assigned that assignment, and yes, I did Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 14 1 undertake that work. 2 Q And based on your work in that assignment, what did 3 you conclude? 4 A My conclusion was -- is that what Soren Jensen and 5 Gunther Widmark did at their institute was done in a Page 12 WATER PCB-00043899 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 6 valid way and that the information that they produced 7 was real. 8 Q Now, this letter is addressed to National Cash 9 Register, and you'll see there is a blind cc to R.E. 10 Kel1er? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Was that your boss at the time? 13 A Yes. At that point in time -- shortly after that, I 14 moved out of the spectroscopy group and became a 15 group leader of the analytical chemistry group and I 16 reported directly to Dr. Keller. 17 Q Now, the letter addressed to National Cash Register, 18 which has been marked as Exhibit 895-B, is enclosing 19 the Jensen and Widmark work. 20 In your estimation was that unusual 21 for Monsanto to be communicating with its customers? 22 MR. BIRKE: Object to form. 23 THE WITNESS: Not really at all, no. Not 24 unusual. 25 Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 15 1 BY MS. CONLIN: 2 Q Now, you indicated that you had concluded based on 3 your research that the findings of Jensen and Widmark 4 were valid. 5 Did you communicate that to Dr. Keller 6 or others at Monsanto? 7 A Yes, I did. And when I talk about findings, what I'm 8 talking about is the analysis they performed was Page 13 WATER PCB-00043900 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 9 valid. Many of their conclusions that they drew were 10 really conjecture or viewpoint and were hypothesis 11 and that kind of stuff. So that wasn't what I 12 addressed. I addressed whether or not the analytical 13 methodology was correct, whether or not we were able 14 to reproduce it and get the same results they did on 15 similar samples. 16 Q And you were able to do so? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Now, you said you conveyed your conclusions to the 19 folks at Monsanto. With whom would you have 20 communicated? 21 A Well, in the beginning I communicated directly with 22 Dr. Keller, who was my boss, and he, in turn, then 23 communicated with the other people involved that had 24 interest in that particular project. 25 As time went on, I began to Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 16 1 communicate directly with a lot of the directors of 2 the different divisions in Monsanto relative to the 3 results that we were generating, as well as to Dr. 4 Kel1er. 5 Q And were people surprised when you had replicated the 6 Jensen and Widmark findings? 7 A I don't think they were actually surprised that I was 8 able to replicate the analytical procedures that they 9 used and things of that sort, because basically 10 that's what I did. 11 I think they were -- the verification Page 14 WATER PCB-00043901 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 12 of the preliminary results by those folks brought up 13 a lot of questions that nobody understood what was 14 going on. So, I wouldn't call it surprise. I would 15 call it interest as to finding out what was going on 16 with those materials since we obviously manufactured 17 them; we being Monsanto. 18 Q The Aroclors? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Okay. And did you undertake additional analysis then 21 once you had replicated the Jensen and Widmark 22 findings? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Could you describe some of the additional work that 25 you did. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 17 1 A There were two techniques that we had set up -- get 2 the equipment, set up, verify, and become practiced 3 at in the laboratory. One was used to -- gas 4 chromatography associated with electron capture 5 detectors. 6 Q Can I ask you just to slow down a bit, Doctor. 7 A Well, I can try. I will try. I'm used to talking 8 fast and I apologize to the reporter. 9 There were two basic techniques that 10 were required for the detection and for the 11 verification of the work. Both of the techniques 12 involved the use of an instrument called a gas 13 chromatograph, and in one case the detection system 14 associated with the gas chromatograph was an electron Page 15 WATER PCB-00043902 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 15 capture detector, and in the other case it was a mass 16 spectrometer. 17 So, we set those up first, and then in 18 addition to that, we had to develop the procedures 19 for isolating the materials that we were after from 20 the environmental samples and the other kinds of 21 samples that we looked at, get them in a form that 22 they could be delivered to the instrument, and then 23 in turn, looking at the results from the instrument 24 and verifying that they were correct. 25 Q Now, turning back for a moment to this February 27th Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 18 1 letter from Dr. Kelly to M.J. Thomas at National Cash 2 Register. The letter concludes, "At any rate, I 3 believe before we worry about the toxicological part 4 of the problem, we should settle the analytical 5 part." 6 Do you see that? 7 A Yes, I do. 8 Q Were you the person who was tasked with that 9 analytical part? 10 A Yes, I was. 11 Q Now, as you undertook some additional research in the 12 PCB area, was there ever a time where you were told 13 to withhold information from customers, such as NCR, 14 in connection with the findings that you were 15 arriving at? 16 A No. 17 Q Did you ever instruct anyone - Page 16 WATER PCB-00043903 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 18 A No. 19 Q -- to withhold information from customers such as NCR 20 as you were looking at the issue as it relates to 21 Aroclors and PCBs? 22 A No, I did not. Never. 23 Q Now, when you first started your work, were you 24 looking at all Aroclors, or were you limiting your 25 work to those that are considered higher chlorinated Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 19 1 Aroclors such as 1254, 1260? 2 A No. Initially the work was to look at all of our 3 products, the Aroclor products, the lower chlorinated 4 ones as well as the higher chlorinated ones. 5 Q Now, did you undertake tests with respect to each of 6 the Aroclor products to determine their presence in 7 the environment? 8 A Yes. That's what the project was about, yes. 9 Q And what types of sampling did you do to determine 10 whether various Aroclors were being found or 11 discharged into the environment? 12 A The first thing we did, of course, was to analyze 13 standards. And when we were able to satisfactorily 14 reproduce the results on standard materials that we 15 knew what we were going to get, and it was within the 16 precision, accuracy and, of course, it behaved the 17 way it was supposed to, then the next step was to 18 move into samples where we mimicked environmental 19 media and -- like soil and like water and like air 20 and things of that sort, and then began to develop Page 17 WATER PCB-00043904 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 21 the isolation -- the isolation, concentration and 22 analysis techniques for those. 23 So -- and in those samples, once we 24 established that there weren't matrix interference - 25 matrix interferences, we would then spike those Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 20 1 samples with the PCBs in question, known amounts and 2 known ones, and then run those through the 3 instrumentation to make sure they worked on that 4 particular media, which mimicked the environmental 5 samples we would probably be getting into. 6 When we were satisfied that we could 7 do those types of things, then we felt ready to do 8 laboratory studies on the mimicked environment, to 9 answer certain questions, and we began to go out into 10 the environment and actually get environmental 11 samples to analyze. 12 We also, at the same time, initiated 13 animal feeding studies with Industrial Bio Tests 14 in -- I believe it was in Chicago, if I remember 15 correctly -- and the results of those -- the reason 16 for those studies were to generate different kinds of 17 matrices that were clear of PCBs and that had been 18 exposed to PCBs so we could see what was going on 19 with those two and verify our analytical techniques. 20 Q Now, as part of the work that you were undertaking on 21 looking at PCBs and their possible presence in the 22 environment, did you undertake any experiments 23 involving burning of NCR paper? Page 18 WATER PCB-00043905 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 24 A Yes. 25 (Deposition Exhibit No. 895-C marked for Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 21 1 identification.) 2 BY MS. CONLIN: 3 Q I've handed you, Dr. Tucker, what's been marked as 4 Exhibit 895-C, which is a two-page memorandum dated 5 December 9th, 1968 from Elmer Wheeler to a W.R. 6 Richard. Do you see that? 7 A Yes, I do. 8 Q And it's entitled "Aroclors - Minutes of Our 9 Discussion with Dr. Calandre." Do you see that? 10 A Calandre. 11 Q Calandre. 12 VIDEOGRAPHER: One moment. 13 (Brief pause.) 14 BY MS. CONLIN: 15 Q Who is Dr. Calandre? 16 A Dr. Calandre was the director of industrial bio 17 tests. 18 Q And is it reporting on discussions of a meeting on 19 Friday? 20 A Yes. Okay. I see it. I was making sure the 21 December 9th was Friday. 22 Q Okay. You would agree this is - 23 A No. It's Friday. It says in the opening line that I 24 finally got to that it was Friday. 25 Q And did you receive a copy of this document? Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Page 19 WATER PCB-00043906 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 22 1 A I'm sure I did. In fact, I know I did. My name's in 2 it. 3 Q And if you take a look at No. 5 on this document of 4 December 9th, 1968, it reads, "The advisability of 5 determining the character and possibility of 6 isolating the major fraction in each of the Aroclors 7 to be studied and to be explored." Do you see that? 8 A Yes, I do. 9 Q What's that a reference to? 10 A There probably are multiple interpretations that I 11 could make at this point in time. I don't remember 12 specifically. There might have been some thought 13 that they would isolate those fractions that they 14 found in the environment in weathered and aged 15 samples from the Aroclors in question and look at 16 them, but I don't remember. 17 Q But, in any event, you're looking at each of the 18 Aroclors, correct? 19 A Yes. No question about that. Each of the products, 20 as I said earlier, we studied. 21 Q And does this memo also reflect some additional work 22 that you're to do? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And what does that include? 25 A The additional work that was going to be done that Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 23 1 went along and in parallel with the animal toxicology Page 20 WATER PCB-00043907 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 2 studies was to generate extra tissue samples and add 3 extra animals to the study that were exposed in the 4 same way such that the tissues could be excised and 5 provided at our laboratory so that we could analyze 6 them for the PCBs that we would find, if we found 7 them. 8 Q Now, if you could take a look at page 2 on Item 7 of 9 Exhibit 895-C. It's written, "Analytical work should 10 be initiated to determine the decomposition products 11 when representative materials (paper) containing 12 Aroclor are burned." 13 Do you see that? 14 A Yes, ma'am, I do. 15 Q And why was Monsanto interested in performing this 16 investigation? 17 A I don't know the specific reason that the author in 18 question did it, but it's obvious that paper is kind 19 of an open use. And if the open use contained 20 PCBs -- and, of course, paper's obviously burned a 21 lot, it was one of the areas where it could be easily 22 distributed to the environment. 23 Q Have you ever heard of the terms open application and 24 closed applications? 25 A Yes. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 24 1 Q And when you referred to open use, what were you 2 referencing? 3 A An open application is where the product is used by 4 whoever we sold the product to, and it's just Page 21 WATER PCB-00043908 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 5 distributed openly, without any attempt to control it 6 or recycle it or contain it during its use. 7 Q Would NCR paper be an example of an open application 8 or open use? 9 A Absolutely. 10 Q And is that one of the reasons why you were looking 11 at it? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And what's an example of a closed application? 14 A A -- closed applications were things like 15 transformers, capacitors, hydraulic fluid systems, 16 heat transfer systems; things where the product was 17 not intentionally distributed outside of its intended 18 use, and the use was closed, obviously. 19 Q Now, following this meeting of Friday before 20 December 9th, then, did you undertake to perform 21 incineration or burning tests on NCR paper? 22 A Yes. 23 (Deposition Exhibit No. 895-D marked for 24 identification.) 25 Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 25 1 BY MS. CONLIN: 2 Q I've handed you, Dr. Tucker, what's been marked as 3 895-D, which is a two-page memorandum. Did you 4 author this? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And it's dated March 4th of 1969? 7 A Yes. Page 22 WATER PCB-00043909 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 8 Q And it's entitled "Aroclor - Wildlife: Incineration 9 of NCR Paper." 10 A Yes. 11 Q And it states in the first paragraph, "It has been 12 proposed from the observed distribution of 13 polychlorinated biphenyls in tissue samples taken 14 from marine organisms that global eco-distribution of 15 these materials occurs via aerial transport (winds, 16 currents, airborne particulate matter, et cetera.)" 17 Do you see that? 18 A Yes, ma'am. 19 Q And what was that conclusion based on? 20 A The conclusion was based on information that was 21 being generated by other analysts and scientists who 22 were looking at the environment and environmental 23 samples as well as ourselves. 24 Q And would that be Jensen and Widmark as an example? 25 A Yes. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 26 1 Q And would that have been a Mr. Risebrough as well? 2 A Yes. 3 Q The next paragraph reads, "A qualitative experiment 4 has been performed with the objective of determining 5 if Aroclor in NCR paper is destroyed or volatilized 6 when the paper is disposed of by burning." 7 Do you see that? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And below is it setting forth the apparatus and 10 methods by which you were going to perform your test? Page 23 WATER PCB-00043910 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 11 A Right. Yes. 12 Q Okay, if we could direct your attention, Dr. Tucker, 13 then to page 2 under your Conclusions. Under No. 1 14 you wrote, "Under the conditions of this experiment, 15 Aroclor is easily volatilized when NCR paper is 16 burned." Do you see that? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And what do you mean by that, Dr. Tucker? 19 A Well, I meant when you put the PCB-containing paper 20 in the chamber and you ignited it, and then collected 21 the vapors by pulling the air through the chamber, 22 that the materials that you collected were Aroclors 23 and that they were easily volatilized from the paper 24 by simple burning. 25 Q And the second conclusion is "Aroclor undergoes Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 27 1 little, if any, decomposition when burned." 2 What did you mean by that? 3 A Well, I meant that the fingerprint associated with 4 the Aroclor that was in the paper was relatively 5 unchanged. 6 Q Meaning what by "unchanged"? 7 A Unchanged meaning it was the same as what was in 8 there. 9 Q And then you conclude under the third point, 10 "Unfortunately, it appears that significant air 11 pollution can occur via burning of NCR paper or other 12 Aroclor-containing materials even under more 13 strenuous conditions." Do you see that? Page 24 WATER PCB-00043911 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 14 A Yes. 15 Q And was that something that you reported to 16 Dr. Richard, Dr. -- or Mr. Kelly and Dr. Wheeler and 17 others? 18 A Yes. Yes. 19 Q Is this -- I want you to assume, Dr. Tucker, that 20 NCR's made an allegation in the case that Monsanto 21 never told them about the results of its paper 22 burning experiments and others. Would that be 23 consistent or inconsistent with your view of 24 Monsanto's practices and the facts as you saw them? 25 MR. HA: Object to form. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 28 1 THE WITNESS: It would be very 2 inconsistent. 3 BY MS. CONLIN: 4 Q Was it your understanding, based on your personal 5 knowledge and involvement, that Monsanto was 6 attempting to keep customers as NCR up to date with 7 the status of your analytical investigations? 8 A Yes. 9 (Deposition Exhibit No. 895-E marked for 10 identification.) 11 BY MS. CONLIN: 12 Q I'm handing you, Dr. Tucker, what's been marked as 13 Exhibit 895-E, which is a one-page memorandum from 14 Elmer Wheeler to Mr. Richards with a copy to yourself 15 dated October 21st, 1968. 16 Do you recall seeing this document? Page 25 WATER PCB-00043912 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 17 A Yes. 18 Q Okay. And in the last paragraph Mr. Wheeler writes, 19 "In a few words, Risebrough has found PCBs along with 20 chlorinated pesticides in a number of species of fish 21 and birds along the California coast as well as in 22 the waters off of Baja California and Central 23 America. He further reports PCB in fish from the 24 Channel Islands and Puget Sound. No PCB was detected 25 in the liver of tuna taken in the Galapagos. Scott Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 29 1 Tucker is going to scrutinize the analytical aspects 2 and particularly the validity of some of the 3 assumptions made by the author." Do you see that? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And did you, in fact, along with the other work that 6 you were doing, undertake to look at what Risebrough 7 was reporting? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Did anyone ever instruct you to keep what you were 10 learning about Risebrough from NCR or any of 11 Monsanto's customers? 12 A No. 13 Q Did you ever instruct anyoneunder your control to 14 keep information that you were learning about the 15 Jensen/Widmark research, the Risebrough research or 16 others from customers such as NCR? 17 A No. 18 (Deposition Exhibit No.895-F marked for 19 identification.) Page 26 WATER PCB-00043913 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 20 BY MS. CONLIN: 21 Q I've handed you, Dr. Tucker, what's been marked as 22 Exhibit 895-F, which is a two-page document bearing 23 Bates PHGNCR-2003397 through 398. And it is entitled 24 "National Cash Register Customer Visit, June 1, 1970" 25 and lists representatives from NCR as well as Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 30 1 representatives from Monsanto. 2 Do you see that, Doctor? 3 A Yes, I do. 4 Q For NCR, Gordon Taylor, Gerry Taylor, Ned Thacker are 5 present, and for Monsanto, yourself and others are 6 1isted? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And if you direct your attention to the meeting 9 agenda, it looks to be a little over a half-day 10 meeting, is that right, Dr. Tucker? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q Okay. And at 9:00 to noon when you're to leave for 13 lunch, it's listed, "Meeting on Toxicology, 14 Biodegradation, Analytical Work as it relates to 15 MIPB, HB-40, and Aroclor 1242." Do you see that? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And would this be consistent or inconsistent with the 18 notion that you were communicating with NCR regarding 19 what was being found with respect to 1242? 20 MR. BIRKE: Object to form. 21 THE WITNESS: It is consistent with the 22 fact that we would be communicating that to NCR. Page 27 WATER PCB-00043914 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 23 BY MS. CONLIN: 24 Q Now Aroclor 1242, what is that? 25 A It's a 42 percent chlorinated biphenyl product Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 31 1 prepared by direct chlorination of biphenyl, and it's 2 one of the PCB products that were manufactured by 3 Monsanto. 4 Q And is 1242 the particular Aroclor that was used in 5 NCR paper? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And there's a reference here to HB-40 and MIPB. What 8 are those, Doctor? 9 A HB-40 is hydrogenated biphenyl, and the 40 indicates 10 that it's been hydrogenated to the 40 percent level. 11 And MIB -- MIPK (sic) refers to mono-isopropyl 12 biphenyl, if I'm interpreting these correctly, and I 13 think I am. 14 Q Were those solutions or possible substitutes that 15 Monsanto and NCR were exploring as a substitute to 16 Aroclor 1242, if you know? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Now, you had indicated previously, Dr. Tucker, that 19 part of your work after you determined the 20 appropriate methodology were to begin to look at 21 various samples from the environment to see whether 22 Aroclors were present? 23 A Yes. 24 (Deposition Exhibit No. 895-G marked for 25 identification.) Page 28 WATER PCB-00043915 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 32 1 BY MS. CONLIN: 2 Q I've handed you, Dr. Tucker, a two-page memorandum. 3 Did you author this? 4 A Yes, I did. 5 Q Okay. And it's the Bates No. MONSFOX97017 through 6 97018. Do you see that? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And is the date of this memorandum that you prepared 9 March 28, 1969? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And what is the subject matter? 12 A The subject matter is a monthly summary of what they 13 were calling the project "Aroclor - Wildlife" at that 14 time for March 1969, specifically dealing with 15 analytical studies. 16 Q I'd like to direct your attention first, Dr. Tucker, 17 to the third paragraph from the bottom which reads, 18 "Incineration experiments with NCR paper indicates 19 that the Aroclor present is easily volatilized, 20 undergoes little, if any, significant decomposition, 21 and that air pollution could occur via this route." 22 Do you see that? 23 A Yes, I do. 24 Q Is that consistent with the incineration test which 25 we previously discussed? Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 Page 29 33 WATER PCB-00043916 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 1 A Yes. It's very consistent with the burn test that we 2 discussed. 3 Q And this memo followed that burn test? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Now, it also suggests that you had undertaken to take 6 Aroclor analysis of Snow Creek - 7 A Yes. 8 Q -- samples. And what is Snow Creek? 9 A Snow Creek and Choccolocco Creek are creeks in the - 10 and the Coosa River are associated with the Anniston, 11 Alabama plant where PCBs were manufactured. 12 Q And what did you determine, based on exhibit -- or as 13 reported in Exhibit 895-E? 14 A Relative tothe creeks and the samples from them? 15 Q Correct. 16 A In a lot of cases, we determined thatthere were PCBs 17 present. 18 Q And so, for example, if we take a look at plant 19 outfall and amount of Aroclor sediment, and you've 20 got some figures there. Could you describe those? 21 A Yes, I can. There were two categories, plant 22 outfall, and plant outfall one block from the plant. 23 There were two types of matrices or 24 samples taken. The first that's shown here is 25 sediment, which of course would be the soil and that Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 34 1 kind of stuff from the bottom of the stream. And the 2 second was water. Page 30 WATER PCB-00043917 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 3 And what's reported on those is the 4 amount of Aroclor found in those samples when we 5 analyzed them in our laboratory. 6 Q Now, in addition to taking samples at Snow Creek, did 7 you also take other environmental samples as a result 8 of your work to ascertain the presence of PBCs in the 9 environment? 10 A PCBs, yes. 11 Q PCBs. Thank you. 12 A I'm sorry. 13 Q And what types ofother samples did you take? 14 A Well, the actual types of samples were pretty much 15 dictated by the environment; in other words, soils 16 and sediments in air and whatever else, could be 17 fish, could be any other kind of wildlife or things 18 of that sort. So -- but they were all analyzed for 19 PCBs. Have I answered your question? 20 Q It did. i'll follow-up. Thank you. 21 A Thank you. 22 (Deposition Exhibit No. 895-H marked for 23 identification.) 24 BY MS. CONLIN: 25 Q I've handed you, Dr. Tucker, what's been marked as Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 35 1 Exhibit 895-H, which is a multi page document from 2 R.E. Keller to W.B. Papageorge comprising Bates 3 GPFOX45395 through 45400. And you see that you're 4 listed as having received a copy of this? 5 A Yes, I do. Page 31 WATER PCB-00043918 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 6 Q And do you recall receiving it? 7 A Yes, I do. 8 Q And it's dated April 17th, 1970; is that right? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q And the subject line is"Environmental Materials 11 Analyzed by Monsanto for PCBs"? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Who is W.B. Papageorge? 14 A Bill Papageorge was the gentleman who became the 15 point person for PCBs and all inquiries and all work 16 and things of that sort associated with it for 17 Monsanto. 18 Q Okay. And the first paragraph of this document 19 indicates, "This note summarizes work we have done to 20 date on the detection of PCBs in environmental 21 materials. The attached table covers a total of 167 22 samples which have been analyzed." Do you see that? 23 A Yes, I do. 24 Q And, in fact, are those results contained on the 25 following pages? Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 36 1 A Yes, they are. 2 Q Okay. And it goes on to say, "PCBs typical of our 3 Aroclor products have been found in" -- and then it 4 indicates water and sediment from nine U.S. rivers, 5 one U.K. river and Lake Michigan. Do you see that? 6 A Yes, I do. 7 Q Is that consistent with the work that you had done in 8 analyzing these samples? Page 32 WATER PCB-00043919 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 9 A Yes. 10 Q And it also indicates that PCBs typical of Monsanto's 11 Aroclor products have been found in the air at the 12 Anniston plant. Do you see that? 13 A Yes, I do. 14 Q And is that consistent with the work and analysis 15 that you were doing? 16 A Yes, it is. 17 Q And what is the Anniston plant? 18 A It's Anniston, Alabama. It's one of the primary 19 locations at which PCBs were manufactured by 20 Monsanto. 21 Q And then it also indicates here that PCBs typical of 22 our Aroclor products have been found in "fish from 23 Lake Michigan and three midwest rivers." Do you see 24 that? 25 A Yes, I do. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 37 1 Q And was that consistent with the work that you had 2 been undertaking up to this point? 3 A Yes, it is, and was. 4 Q And then the last two are human fat from a midwest 5 biopsy specimen and milk from Maryland and Ohio dairy 6 farms. Do you see that? 7 A Yes, I do. 8 Q And, again, was that consistent with the work and the 9 conclusions that you had arrived at, Dr. Tucker? 10 A Yes, it was, and is. 11 Q And then it says, "The water, sediment and air Page 33 WATER PCB-00043920 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 12 samples contain PCBs typical of Aroclor 1242, 1248, 13 1254 and/or 1260." 14 Would that suggest that you were 15 looking at all those types of Aroclors for their 16 presence in the environment? 17 A Yeah. Not only suggests it; we were. 18 Q At any point in time were you restricting your work 19 and analysis to higher chlorinated Aroclors such as 20 1254 or 1260? 21 A No. 22 Q Then it says, concludes, "The milk, human fat and 23 fish samples contain PCBs most typical of Aroclor 24 1254." Do you see that? 25 A Yes, I do. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 38 1 Q Now, if we take a look at the page 2 of 2 Exhibit 895-H, does it list the environmental 3 materials analyzed by Monsanto? 4 A Correct. Under -- about five or sixcolumns list 5 information with regard to those samples. 6 Q Okay. So on the left-hand side is the manufacturer 7 or user and site location, right? 8 A Correct. 9 Q And then you've listed anyassociated waterways 10 beside that, right? 11 A Correct. 12 Q And then you looked at a matrix and number of samples 13 analyzed such as air, water, or the like, right? 14 A Yes. Page 34 WATER PCB-00043921 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 15 Q And does that -- by the way, does that indicate that 16 you -- that you -- did you test in each case listed 17 here, air, water, sediment and fish, or is it listed 18 here only those areas that you sampled? 19 A The samples were undoubtedly provided to me and, for 20 example, in the first one where it says Monsanto, 21 United States, Anniston, Alabama, Snow Creek and 22 Choccolocco Creek, which we referred to earlier, it 23 lists four matrices; air, water, sediment and fish, 24 which means that I was provided three air samples, 23 25 water samples, 12 sediment samples, and two fish Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 39 1 samples to look at for the spectrum of PCBs which 2 included all of our products 1242 through 1260. 3 The next column, PCBs found, indicates 4 by an X whether or not -- what the -- what the PCBs 5 in the sample were most relative to the product we 6 manufactured. 7 Q And listed there you've got 1242, 1248, 1254 and 8 1260? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And those are various types of Monsanto Aroclors? 11 A Correct, those are -- yes. 12 Q And next to that you have PCB levels? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And you've got certain designations, PPB and PPM. 15 What do those indicate? 16 A The PPB means parts per billion and the PPM means 17 parts per million. Page 35 WATER PCB-00043922 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 18 Q Now, I'd like to direct your attention down about 19 five lines to entry "National Cash Register, Portage, 20 Wisconsin." Do you see that? 21 A Yes, I do. 22 Q And then the associated waterway listed there is the 23 Fox River and the Wisconsin River? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay. Did you undertake to sample waterways from -- Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 40 1 or water from National Cash Register in Portage, 2 Wi sconsin? 3 A We received samples from those waterways and we 4 analyzed them. I didn't take them myself. They 5 might have been taken by the people who were 6 operating the plant and their technical folks. 7 Q NCR sent you those samples? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Would that suggest to you, Doctor, that NCR was aware 10 that you were taking samples or analyzing their water 11 around their Portage plant for possible PCB - 12 A Yes. 13 Q -- presence? 14 MR. BIRKE: Object to form. 15 MR. HA: And foundation. 16 BY MS. CONLIN: 17 Q Now, if you take a look at the next column, you've 18 got 1242 identified as having been found in the water 19 samples - 20 A Correct. Page 36 WATER PCB-00043923 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 21 Q -- from National Cash Register's Portage, Wisconsin 22 plant; is that right? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Okay. And it says PCB levels, PPM. What's the 25 significance of that relative to the, for example, Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 41 1 PPB that you've got listed here? 2 A Well, parts per million is a thousand times greater 3 than parts per billion. So, what it means is that 4 there's 1,000 more -- the levels found were a 5 thousand above the part per billion level. So there 6 were significant levels there. That was a 7 significant level of PCBs. 8 Q And then you've got an analysis technique, EC/GC. 9 What does that stand for, Doctor? 10 A Stands for electron capture/gas chromatograph. 11 Q And was that the analytical tool that you were 12 employing? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Now, the work that is reflected in 895-H had been 15 completed, obviously, prior to this April 17th, 1970 16 summary? 17 A Yes. Actually, this was a summary that I prepared 18 for Dr. Keller, who Dr. Keller then distributed as 19 the author to the principals that were interested in 20 this within the company and elsewhere. 21 (Deposition Exhibit No. 895-1 marked for 22 identification.) 23 BY MS. CONLIN: Page 37 WATER PCB-00043924 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 24 Q I've handed you, Dr. Tucker, what's been marked as 25 Exhibit 895-1, which is a one-page memorandum bearing Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 42 1 Bates No. MONSFOX97076. Is this something that you 2 prepared on February 25th of 1969? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And what is the subject? 5 A "Aroclor - Wildlife," which I had mentioned earlier, 6 was the nomenclature being used to refer to what I 7 was doing. 8 Q Okay. And does this, in fact, talk about some 9 samples that you had received from the Snow Creek 10 pi ant? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Now - 13 A It was actually theAnniston, Alabamaplant that was 14 on the Snow Creek. 15 Q Okay. Thank you for that correction. 16 A I'm sorry. 17 Q That's fine. And if you take a look at -- it 18 describes, basically, the sample designation and then 19 the amount of Aroclor found; is that right? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Okay. And would this be Aroclor that was being found 22 in the effluent? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Okay. Now, you write in the second full paragraph, 25 "The amount of Aroclor found was calculated as Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Page 38 WATER PCB-00043925 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 43 1 Aroclor 1242." Do you see that? 2 A Yes, I do. 3 Q Okay. Would that be consistent or inconsistent with 4 the view that you were only looking at higher 5 chlorinated Aroclors in February of 1969? 6 MR. HA: Object to form. 7 THE WITNESS: It would demonstrate that we 8 were looking at other than higher chlorinated 9 biphenyls. Is that -- I would guess -- well, I made 10 the statement. 11 BY MS. CONLIN: 12 Q Fair enough. Now, you also indicate that perhaps 13 "samples should be taken further down Snow Creek, 14 down Choccolocco Creek and even the Coosa River if 15 necessary." Do you see that? 16 A Yes, I do. 17 Q Okay. And do you know if you ever performed that 18 additional work? 19 A I don't recall it specifically, but I'm quite sure we 20 probably did. 21 Q At the bottom of this page it says, "Start new file. 22 Aroclor pollution." Is that your handwriting? 23 A Yes, it is. 24 Q And did you in fact - 25 A Time out. Time out. Let me look at it more Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 44 1 carefully. You know, I don't think it is. Page 39 WATER PCB-00043926 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 2 Q Do you know whose handwriting it might be? 3 A No, but I -- I know it's not mine, now that I'm 4 looking at it a little bit more closely. 5 Q Now, this is cc'd to Messrs. Keller, Garrett and 6 Hodges. Who are those individuals? 7 A Well, Keller, as I mentioned earlier, was Dr. Keller, 8 and he was my initial boss and the manager of the 9 applied sciences section of Monsanto. Jack Garrett 10 worked for Elmer Wheeler, and he was in the -- kind 11 of like the toxicology, environmental type area. And 12 Paul Hodges had to do with the Krummrich plant or 13 some other operation within Monsanto. I'm not sure 14 what it was specifically, but I met him a fair number 15 of times. 16 Q And was it your practice to routinely apprise your 17 supervisors or Mr. Richard or Wheeler of what you 18 were finding? 19 A Yes. 20 (Deposition Exhibit No. 895-J marked for 21 identification.) 22 BY MS. CONLIN: 23 Q I've handed you, Dr. Tucker, what's been marked as 24 Exhibit 895-J, which is a multi page document bearing 25 Bates GPFOX37924 through 37926. Do you recognize Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 45 1 this document? 2 A Yes, I do. 3 Q Is this something that you prepared on or about 4 November 20th, 1969? Page 40 WATER PCB-00043927 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 5 A Yes, it is. 6 Q And to whom is it addressed? 7 A It's addressed to Dr. Robert Keller. 8 Q And to whom is it copied? 9 A It's copied to Bryant, Farrar, Richard and Wheeler. 10 Jim Bryant, I think, would be having something to do 11 with the plants, the manufacturing materials. Farrar 12 was the director of the plasticizers for organics 13 division. Bill Richards was the functional fluid 14 director, and Emmet -- Wheeler worked for Emmet Kelly 15 in the medical department next to the toxicology lab. 16 Q And was this -- did you undertake monthly wildlife 17 summaries to or by -- I guess every couple months to 18 apprise your supervisors as to the progress of your 19 research? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Okay. Now, you indicate three paragraphs down 22 that -- four paragraphs down, "A review and 23 comparison of the PCB analytical methodology 24 developed here and independently in the Wisconsin 25 Research Alumni Foundation laboratories was held in Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 46 1 Madison, Wisconsin." Do you see that? 2 A Yes, I do. 3 Q And what was concluded with respect to what the 4 Wisconsin Research Alumni Foundation methodologies 5 were relative to what you were doing at Monsanto? 6 A The methodologies that I reviewed with WARF, I 7 believe they called it -- that was the acronym that Page 41 WATER PCB-00043928 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 8 was called for, were consistent with what we were 9 doing and were applicable to being able to analyze 10 PCB samples. 11 It was my understanding that they were 12 undertaking a large sampling of Lake Michigan and 13 that they were going to be beginning to analyze those 14 samples and they were soliciting our participation. 15 Q Okay. Now, in the next paragraph you write, 16 "Analysis of estuary mud samples from around the" - 17 is it the "Uskmouth area (Newport, U.K.) have been 18 completed." 19 A Yes. 20 Q Why were you doing sampling over there or having 21 sampling done over there? 22 A Well, PCBs weren't the only place that -- PCBs were 23 manufactured other places than in the United States. 24 And so that was our facility in Europe, in Great 25 Britain, if I remember correctly, UK obviously, and Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 47 1 they were asking us to analyze those samples to 2 confirm probably what they had done themselves. 3 Q And what is the conclusion as reflected in 4 Exhibit 895-1 in the next sentence? 5 A The conclusion is we found significant levels of 6 Aroclor 1242 in all the samples, and that they ranged 7 from half a part per million to two parts per 8 million. And that there were also indications of 9 some more higher chlorinated PCBs, 1254 through 1260, 10 but at much more lower levels. And that's consistent Page 42 WATER PCB-00043929 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 11 with outfalls from plants that manufacture and/or use 12 PCBs at that time. 13 Q And what was the results reflected in this exhibit 14 from the Anniston plant as reflected in the next 15 paragraph? 16 A The paragraph that says "the EC/GC analysis"? 17 Q Yes. 18 A It simply states that we had completed the analysis 19 of all the samples provided to us from the Anniston, 20 Alabama plant and that the levels found ranged from 21 as low as two parts per billion to as high as 22 2 percent. 23 Q Okay. I'd like to direct your attention now to 24 page 2 of Exhibit 895-1, and I'd like to direct your 25 attention to the paragraph right above Future Plans Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 48 1 where you write, "The area percent of each homologue 2 and isomer distribution of Aroclor 1242 was 3 determined by gas chromatography-mass spectrometry." 4 And then you write, "At least 46 5 chlorinated biphenyls were detected. Homologues 6 containing five to ten chlorines per molecule 7 accounted for," and it looks like originally it said 8 8-point -- or 9.68, but then there's a handwritten 9 correction, "7.69 of the Aroclor." Do you see that? 10 A Yes, I do. 11 Q What's that referencing? 12 A It was obvious that all of the polychlorinated 13 biphenyl of the Aroclors contained each of the Page 43 WATER PCB-00043930 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 14 chlorinated isomers to some amount, because of the 15 way the products were manufactured. And so what we 16 were interested in, since the initial problem seemed 17 to be and still seems to be, in aged, weathered 18 samples, we were seeing pentachloro- and above, 19 pentachloro- and hexachlorobiphenyls in them. 20 And so what we were trying to 21 determine is how much of Aroclor 1242 were -- could 22 we account for by looking to see how much five to ten 23 chlorines per molecule accounted for. I'm not sure I 24 stated that very clearly, but -25 Q Let me ask it this way. So -- is this a reference to Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 49 1 the fact that in Aroclor 1242, at least according to 2 this document, 7.69 percent of it would be comprised 3 of the five chlorine and higher? 4 A Right. What it basically says is that less than 10 5 percent of Aroclor 1242 was what everybody was 6 concerned about. 7 Q 10 percent it was concerned about? 8 A There was concern about 10 percent and 90 percent was 9 not of concern. 10 Q Because those were the tetrachlorinated isomers - 11 A There was less than five chlorines per molecule and 12 they didn't appear in the aged, weathered samples. 13 MS. CONLIN: Why don't we take a break 14 here. 15 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the record 16 at 9:55 a.m. Page 44 WATER PCB-00043931 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 17 (Brief recess taken from 9:55 a.m. to 10:05 18 a.m.) 19 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record on 20 tape two at 10:05 a.m. 21 BY MS. CONLIN: 22 Q Dr. Tucker, before we broke we were discussing 23 Exhibit 895-J and we were on page 2. 24 Now, in your memorandum to Keller 25 dated November 20th, 1969, did you outline future Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 50 1 pians? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And direct your attention to the second paragraph 4 under Future Plans. What were you going to 5 undertake? 6 A It says here, I was going to undertake "River water 7 biodegradation experiments with Aroclors 1221, 1242, 8 1248 and 1254," and that we were going to start them 9 within five days. 10 Q It goes on to say, "These experiments are in 11 cooperative effort with Dr. R.A. Swisher of the 12 Inorganic Division." Who was that individual? 13 A Dr. Swisher was a -- one of the mentors in the area 14 of studying biodegradation with river die-away 15 studies and some of the continuous activated sludge 16 studies, and in fact, he really kind of almost 17 invented and extended those kinds of studies for 18 linear alkyl benzene sulfonates, which are of 19 course - Page 45 WATER PCB-00043932 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 20 Q You've got to talk a littler slower. 21 A I am sorry. I started doing it again. All right. I 22 will slow down, and I appreciate you letting me know. 23 He was the father of biodegradation 24 techniques that were used to study soaps and that 25 were -- got into the environment, if you remember, a Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 51 1 long time ago we used to have bubbles from the soaps 2 in the environment, and of course they -- that came 3 from the fact that the alkyl benzene sulfonates that 4 they were using were not biodegradable, and they were 5 getting into the water, so they continued to foam the 6 water. 7 Well, they came up with a thing called 8 linear alkyl benzene sulfonates which undergo 9 bacterial degradation very quickly so we don't have 10 that problem anymore. And Dr. Bob Swisher, who was a 11 friend, was also the author of that kind of a 12 technique, and he wrote a book on the subject and he, 13 fortunately, happened to be working for us. 14 So I used him as an expert resource to 15 develop the same kinds of techniques for studying the 16 biodegradation of water insoluble compounds. 17 Q And did you undertake, then, to look at the 18 biodegradation of certain Aroclors such as 1221, 19 1242, 1256 and 1260? 20 A And 1248, 1254, 1260. Yes, I did. 21 (Deposition Exhibit No. 895-K marked for 22 identification.) Page 46 WATER PCB-00043933 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 23 BY MS. CONLIN: 24 Q I've handed you, Dr. Keller (sic), what's been marked 25 as Exhibit 895-K. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 52 1 A Would you repeat that question for me, please. 2 Q Sure. I said I've handed you, Dr. Tucker, a document 3 which has been marked as Exhibit 895-K. Do you have 4 K? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Okay. Which comprises a two-page document comprising 7 MONSFOX98648 through 98649. Do you recognize this 8 document? 9 A Yes, I do. 10 Q Is it something that you authored on or about 11 December 23rd of 1969? 12 A Yes, it is. 13 Q Okay. And is this addressed to your boss, Mr. 14 Kel1er? 15 A Yes, it is. 16 Q And to whom is it copied? 17 A It's copied to Martin Farrar, Bill Richard and Elmer 18 Wheeler. 19 Q And what's the title of this? 20 A Again, the title is -- the general title is "Aroclor 21 - Wildlife" and it gives a monthly summary. 22 Q Is that consistent with the monthly summary we looked 23 at previously? 24 A Correct. This kind of report was produced on a 25 monthly basis. Page 47 WATER PCB-00043934 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 53 1 Q I'd like to direct your attention down to the second 2 to the last paragraph on page 1. And could you just 3 read what you've written here. 4 A Yes. "Water samples from a NCR plant in Wisconsin 5 have been analyzed. The Aroclor being discharged, 6 Aroclor 1242, was easily detected at all sampling 7 points and ranged from approximately 1,000 parts per 8 million at the plant to approximately one part per 9 million in the effluent from the sewerage treatment 10 facilities. The electron capture/gas chromatograph 11 indicated that no biodegradation was occurring. A 12 memo discussing the subject was issued." 13 Q Okay. And this NCR plant, is that the one in Portage 14 that we looked at in connection with the summary work 15 that you had done in 1970? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And with reference to the Aroclor 1242 being "easily 18 detected at all sampling points and ranged from 19 approximately 1,000 parts per million at the plant to 20 approximately one part per million in the effluent," 21 do you see that? 22 A Yes, I do. 23 Q How does that compare with the Anniston and Snow 24 Creek results that we looked at previously? 25 A It's consistent. The thousand parts per million is Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 Page 48 54 WATER PCB-00043935 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 1 consistent with the types of levels we saw at plant 2 outfalls for plants that were using the Aroclors. 3 And the one part per million coming out of a sewerage 4 treatment facility is also consistent with the 5 absorption that might occur in the facility that 6 would drop the content, plus dilution. 7 Q And now, you indicated here the EC/GC "indicated that 8 no biodegradation was occurring." Do you see that? 9 A That's correct. Yes, I do. 10 Q And what did you mean by that as written on 11 Exhibit 895-K? 12 A I meant that the fingerprint that was observed with 13 the instrumentation was equivalent to the virgin 14 product, which usually meant that the material was 15 fresh and continuously being put in, at that point, 16 at a fairly high level. 17 Q And I believe you mentioned before, these were 18 samples that were sent to you by NCR? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Now, it says in the last sentence of this paragraph, 21 "A memo discussing the subject was issued." And, in 22 fact, did you issue a previous memorandum on the 23 subject? 24 A I'm certain I did if I said so. 25 (Deposition Exhibit No. 895-L marked for Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 55 1 identification.) 2 BY MS. CONLIN: Page 49 WATER PCB-00043936 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 3 Q I've handed you, Dr. Tucker, what's been marked as 4 Exhibit 895-L, which is a one-page document bearing 5 Bates GPFOX144003. Can you identify this document? 6 A Yes. It's a document that I wrote, and I sent it 7 directly to Cumming Paton and Jack Garrett, with 8 carbon copies to Martin Farrar, Bill Richards, 9 Dr. Keller, and Elmer Wheeler. 10 Q And what's the date of this memorandum? 11 A The date is December 3rd, 1969. 12 Q So a few weeks before the December 23rd memorandum, 13 Exhibit 895-K? 14 A Yes. Which was the 23rd, right. Day before 15 Christmas. 16 Q And what is the subject? 17 A The subject, again, is "Aroclor - Wildlife" and then 18 specifically this time "NCR Water Samples." 19 Q Okay. And do you then set forth the various samples 20 and the parts per million Aroclor 1242 found? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Okay. In sample one, you've got 1063. Do you see 23 that? 24 A Yeah. Oh, the concentration. Yes. 25 Q The concentration is -- Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 56 1 A 1,063 parts per million Aroclor 1242 found. 2 Q Okay. And would that be considered a high number 3 from an effluent standpoint? 4 MR. BIRKE: Object to form. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. Page 50 WATER PCB-00043937 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 6 BY MS. CONLIN: 7 Q Now, if you take a look at the first paragraph, it 8 says, "The electron capture fingerprints of the 9 extracts from each sample do not show any indication 10 of biodegradation." Do you see that? 11 A Yes, I do. 12 Q Is that consistent with what you reflected and 13 reported in your December 23rd memorandum to your 14 supervisors, Exhibit 895-K? 15 A Yes, it's consistent. 16 (Deposition Exhibit No. 895-M marked for 17 identification.) 18 BY MS. CONLIN: 19 Q Dr. Tucker, you've been handed what's been marked as 20 deposition Exhibit 895-M, which is a one-page 21 document bearing Bates MONSFOX96416. 22 You received a copy of this document 23 on or about October 28th, 1969? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay. And what's the subject? Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 57 1 A Subject is "Aroclors in Wildlife." 2 Q And who authored this? 3 A The author, as witnessed by the signature at the 4 bottom, is F. McDonald. 5 Q And there's a slash there, Newport. What is Newport? 6 A Newport is a location in the United Kingdom. 7 Q I'd like to direct your attention to the second 8 paragraph of this document where it's written, "We Page 51 WATER PCB-00043938 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 9 have recently collected samples of mud from the 10 estuary in the Uskmouth" -- how do you pronounce 11 that? 12 A I haven't the faintest. I would call it Uskmouth. 13 Q -- "Uskmouth area. Analysis of these samples and the 14 method of analysis used were carried out by E.S. 15 Tucker at the R&D laboratories, South 2nd Street. 16 The results of these analysis are given, but there's 17 no indication as to the toxicity of these levels of 18 concentration." Do you see that? 19 A Yes, I do. 20 Q Is that a reference to the fact that you were doing 21 work to identify the presence as opposed to the 22 toxicological issues at that point? 23 A That's correct. I'm an analytical chemist, not a 24 toxicologist. 25 Q Now, if you direct your attention down to the last Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 58 1 paragraph, it says, "Perhaps we should also check on 2 the effluent coming from the Thames Board Paper Mills 3 at Warrington which discharges into the River Mersey 4 after repulping considerable quantities of 5 wastepaper. This could be a source of chlorinated 6 carbons which would certainly finish up in the Irish 7 Sea which is an area highlighted in the Times 8 article." Do you see that? 9 A Yes, I do. 10 Q First of all, do you recall the Times article 11 directed to this issue? Page 52 WATER PCB-00043939 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 12 A No, I don't, specifically. 13 Q Okay. And what about paperboard mills, was that a - 14 was that an operation that did repulping? 15 A Yes. 16 MR. MILLER: Objection, foundation. 17 MR. BIRKE: Foundation. 18 THE WITNESS: When I say yes, I mean that 19 that's the way they were typically referred to at 20 times. 21 BY MS. CONLIN: 22 Q Now, as of October 28th of '69, at least some within 23 Monsanto were looking at the issue or at least 24 raising the issue of whether repulping could be a 25 cause of potential PCB discharge; is that right? Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 59 1 A That's correct. 2 MR. MILLER: Object to the form. 3 BY MS. CONLIN: 4 Q Did you continue to do work regarding samples of - 5 coming from overseas? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And what types of places did you collect samples 8 from? 9 A I don't remember specifically. We did not make the 10 choices, at least we certainly didn't at my level, 11 but samples intermittently would come from our 12 European operations for us to analyze. 13 Q Would that involve places such as Wiggins Teape? 14 A It could. Page 53 WATER PCB-00043940 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 15 Q So based on the documents that we've reviewed today, 16 is it fair to state, Dr. Tucker, that you were 17 finding 1242 in the water effluent of various plants? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And to the extent that you were involved, do you 20 recall Monsanto ever telling NCR that 1242 was not an 21 environmental contaminant? 22 A No. 23 Q Do you recall Monsanto ever telling NCR that it 24 viewed 1242 as completely biodegradable? 25 A No. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 60 1 MR. HA: Object to form. 2 BY MS. CONLIN: 3 Q Do you recall Monsanto ever telling NCR that 1242 was 4 not environmentally persistent? 5 MR. BIRKE: Object to form. 6 THE WITNESS: No. 7 BY MS. CONLIN: 8 Q Now, you've mentioned previously that at least a 9 portion, 7 to 10 percent of 1242, is comprised of 10 these higher chlorinated isomers. Do you recall that 11 testimony - 12 A Yes. 13 Q -- Doctor? And what is the significance of that, if 14 any, as it relates to biodegradation? 15 A The significance that we determined was that the 16 lower chlorinated materials, the ones tetra- and 17 less, were biodegraded at a measurable rate in the Page 54 WATER PCB-00043941 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 18 environment. And the higher ones, starting with the 19 pentas and above, did not seem to degrade under a 20 detectable. 21 Q And what do you mean by biodegrade? 22 A Biotransformation. Biodegrade means that the 23 original molecular structure of the compound in 24 question is changed to the extent that the compound 25 is no longer what it was. And the reason that Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 61 1 transformation can occur from the biodegradation 2 viewpoint at the lowest level, for example, with 3 bacteria, would be that the bacteria used those 4 constituents as sources of food and energy. And they 5 degrade them basically, in a lot of cases, down to 6 carbon dioxide, water and mineral salts. And of 7 course that means that the compound itself degrades 8 completely. 9 On the other hand, they can undergo 10 what's called primary biodegradation, which just 11 means it changes from one kind of molecule to another 12 during the process of using it as a food source, 13 carbon source -14 Q So, would it be fair to state, based on what you 15 said, that at least a portion, 10 percent or less of 16 the 1242 Aroclor isomer mixture, was more 17 biologically persistent than the other portions of 18 it? 19 A Yeah. And the word that was used that's kind of a 20 nice word, I think, is recalcitrant. To answer your Page 55 WATER PCB-00043942 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 21 question specifically, is yes. 22 Q So -- do you ever recall there being discussions or 23 inquiries regarding whether what was being -- shown 24 up or said was shown up in the environment as 1254 or 25 1260 was, in fact, a degraded 1242? Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 62 1 A I think there were a lot of discussions with respect 2 to that, and there was a lot of information that 3 showed that that was the case. 4 (Deposition Exhibit No. 895-N marked for 5 identification.) 6 BY MS. CONLIN: 7 Q I've handed you, Dr. Tucker, what's been marked as 8 Exhibit 895-N, which is a one-page document bearing 9 MONSFOX99147, which is a one-page memorandum from 10 R.A. Lidgett to you, I believe. Is that right? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Dated December 24th of 1969? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Okay. I'd like to direct your attention down to the 15 last paragraph where Mr. Lidgett writes to you, "I 16 have noticed that there's little evidence for 1242 in 17 chromatograms obtained in the UK on extracts from 18 wildlife residues, et cetera, possibly because it is 19 degraded and most people are quoting the PCBs found 20 as 1254 and occasionally 1260. Do you find a similar 21 situation in the United States?" 22 Do you see that? 23 A Yes, I do. Page 56 WATER PCB-00043943 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 24 Q And is that a reference to what you just described? 25 A Yes, it is. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 63 1 (Deposition Exhibit No. 895-0 marked for 2 identification.) 3 BY MS. CONLIN: 4 Q I've handed you, Dr. Tucker, what's been marked as 5 Exhibit 895-0, which is a one-page document bearing 6 Bates GPFOX54309, and is dated January 30th, 1970, 7 and is authored by a Mr. Lidgett and addressed to a 8 Baxter and Vodden. Do you see that, Doctor? 9 A Yes, I do. 10 Q if you could take a look to the last -- Item 3 in the 11 last paragraph. Lidgett writes, "Aroclor 1242 has 12 not been observed in extracts and it again appears 13 that Aroclor 1254 or higher chlorinated biphenyls are 14 being suspected as themain environmental 15 contaminants." Do you seethat? 16 A Yes, I do. 17 Q Then he writes down in his last paragraph, "I am 18 convinced that many of themeasurements of PCBs, 19 which have so far been identified as Aroclor 1254 (or 20 equivalent) or above are, in fact, degraded 1242 and 21 that it is only a matter of time before this 22 conclusion is reached by Unilever and other 23 organizations." Do you see that? 24 A Yes, I do. 25 Q So what -- could you explain to me what similarities Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Page 57 WATER PCB-00043944 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 64 1 exist between 1242 and 1254 and -60 on the isomer 2 si de? 3 A I can do my best to attempt to do that from a 4 chemist's viewpoint. 5 As I said earlier, the chlorinated 6 hydrocarbons are produced by the direct chlorination 7 of biphenyl, and each product contains by weight a 8 certain percentage of chlorine that has utility as a 9 product, because of its physical properties. 10 The products that were generally 11 manufactured were Aroclor 1221, Aroclor 1242, Aroclor 12 1254 and Aroclor 1260, and 1248 sometimes. There was 13 an initial product called Aroclor 1232, but it was a 14 mixture of Aroclor 1221 and Aroclor 1242, because 15 when you tried to make it directly, some of the 16 isomers were insoluble in the media and they would 17 crystalize, which was not useful in a functional 18 fluid. 19 So, based on the way that they were 20 made, each of the products contained a little bit of 21 every one of the PCBs, and depending upon what 22 percentage chlorine was present, for example, if it 23 was a 42 percent chlorinated biphenyl product, it 24 would contain predominantly di-, tri- and tetra25 materials, which is right around centroid, around the Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 65 1 42 percent level in terms of the chlorine content. Page 58 WATER PCB-00043945 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 2 if it was 54, it would be around the 3 penta-. if it was 60, it would be around a hexa-. 4 And that's why the products are referred to as 5 pentachloro-, hexachloro-, tetrachloro-, trichloro-, 6 dichloro-, when in reality they're isomeric mixtures 7 that are chlorinated to a certain percent. 8 So the point I'm trying to make is 9 that each of the products to one degree or another 10 contained a certain percentage of the penta- and 11 hexa- level materials that were being looked at and 12 found to be recalcitrant to degradation in the 13 environment. 14 Aroclors were used as the standards in 15 the analytical methodology because there were not 16 specific isomer standards that were available. There 17 were 209 different isomers that were chlorinated, and 18 so it would be kind of difficult to use 209 19 individual isomers as standards. They simply didn't 20 exist in a lot of cases. They'd never been prepared 21 or isolated. 22 So it's common to use the two terms, 23 Aroclor and pentachlorobiphenyl, hexachlorobiphenyl, 24 trichlorobiphenyl as equivalent when, indeed, they're 25 not. I hope I haven't confused the situation. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 66 1 Q No. Let me -- let me approach it this way. We had 2 previously discussed the fact that Aroclor 1242 3 contained -- was an isomer mixture, correct, Doctor? 4 A Correct. Page 59 WATER PCB-00043946 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 5 Q And contained a certain percentage, 10 percent or 6 around there, of the penta- and hexa-chlorinate, 7 right? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q And by hexa- or penta-, does that simply mean that 10 there are five or six chlorine atoms that are 11 attached to the biphenyl ring? 12 A That's what it means, yes. 13 Q And if we're looking at 1254 and 1260, by way of 14 example, those would also contain penta- and 15 hexa-chlorinates, correct? 16 A Correct. 54 percent chlorination was equivalent to a 17 pentachlorobiphenyl, and of course, the other two. 18 Q So it would have an overlap with 1242 on the penta19 and hexa- and above, but that the 1254 would have a 20 much larger percentage than the 1242? 21 A Correct, of the pentachloro-, that's correct. 22 Q Now, turning back to Exhibit 895-M for a moment - 23 I'm sorry, 895-N and O. Was this understanding to 24 your knowledge that 12 -- what was showing up as 1254 25 and 1260 could actually be 1242, was that something Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 67 1 that Monsanto was sharing with customers such as NCR? 2 A Yes. 3 MR. BIRKE: Object to form. 4 MR. HA: And foundation. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, it was. 6 BY MS. CONLIN: 7 Q Did anyone ever instruct you to keep that information Page 60 WATER PCB-00043947 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 8 from customers such as NCR? 9 A No. 10 Q Did youinstruct anybody within your control and 11 responsibility to withhold information such as that 12 from NCR? 13 A No, I never did. 14 Q Now, did you also undertake to test air samples for 15 various customers? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And did you in fact -- what was the purpose of, and 18 your reasoning, for testing air samples? 19 A Well, my purpose for testing air samples was that the 20 samples were submitted to me, and I had the ability 21 to test them for it. So that was the primary purpose 22 that I did it. 23 The objective of what the information 24 was going to be used for was, of course, up to the 25 person that was submitting the samples to me if they Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 68 1 came from the outside. Air obviously is one of the 2 matrices in our environment and obviously one source 3 for the transportation of environmental pollutants 4 throughout the world, so it's an important matrix. 5 Q So when you're measuring air samples -- let me back 6 up and ask the question a different way. 7 You tested air samples for the 8 presence of Aroclor, right? 9 A Yes. PCBs at the same time. I was using those terms 10 synonymously, too. Page 61 WATER PCB-00043948 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 11 Q Sure, sure. And one of the reasons you were doing 12 that was because you understood that the air was 13 going out into the environment, right? 14 MR. MILLER: Object to the form. 15 THE WITNESS: I understood that the air 16 that was associated with PCBs was being released to 17 the environment. 18 BY MS. CONLIN: 19 Q Now, did you undertake to test samples, air samples, 20 from Appleton Coated Paper? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Okay. And did they send you air samples to test? 23 A Yes. 24 (Deposition Exhibit Nos. 895-P and Q marked 25 for identification.) Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 69 1 BY MS. CONLIN: 2 Q I've handed you two documents, sir. One which has 3 been marked as 895-P, which is a multi page document 4 comprising MONSFOX88213 through 216, and the second, 5 895-Q, a one-page document bearing Bates MONSFOX134. 6 Turning first to Exhibit 895-Q. 7 Could you identify this document for 8 the record? 9 A Well, it's dated March 17th, 1970. It's to a Dr. Ron 10 Jococo (ph)? Is that decent? Well, it doesn't 11 matter. J-E-V-E-R, looks like an O or A, at Appleton 12 Coated Paper Company, Appleton, Wisconsin, 54911. 13 Dear Dr. -- which we spelled earlier. Page 62 WATER PCB-00043949 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 14 Q Is it a document written by you? 15 A Oh, yeah. Yes, it is. 16 Q Okay. Dated March 17th of 1970? 17 A Yes, it is. 18 Q Okay. And in this, do you offer to analyze air 19 samples for Appleton Coated Paper Company? 20 A Yes, I do, and I include an article showing about the 21 vaporization, vapor pressures and things of that sort 22 of Aroclor that I thought might be helpful. 23 Q Vapor tolerance levels? 24 A That's what it says, yes, vapor tolerance levels. 25 Q Do you recall off the top of your head what those Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 70 1 tolerance levels were? 2 A Not specifically. It's available. The information 3 is avai1able. 4 Q if you'd take a look at 895-P, then. Is this a 5 letter you sent to Dr. Jezerc on May 12th of 1970? 6 A Yes, it is. 7 Q And in this do you report the results of air samples 8 that you tested for Appleton Coated Paper Company? 9 A Correct. It's a memo to him reporting, directly to 10 him, reporting the results that I found on the 11 samples that were submitted and written, of course, 12 by me and then copied in to the principals at 13 Monsanto who had interest, and Gordon Taylor at NCR. 14 Q Now, at the bottom of the first page you write, 15 "Assuming that 6 cubic feet of air was scrubbed 16 through 500 milliliters of toluene, and that the Page 63 WATER PCB-00043950 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 17 efficiency of the scrubber was 100 percent, then the 18 calculated amounts of Aroclor 1242 present in the air 19 samples 11 and 12 are 4.1 to 7.5 and 4.8 to 20 8.8 micrograms per cubic meter." Do you see that? 21 A Yes, I do. 22 Q And how did you go about calculating that? 23 A I -- I hate to say -- using the principles of 24 arithmetic. 25 Q Fair enough, Doctor. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 71 1 A I'm sorry. I used the standard calculation that was 2 used to calculate concentrations and report them in 3 terms of milligrams per cubic meter. It's something 4 that's done standard for air sampling type things. 5 Q Do you recall the threshold limits at that time being 6 suggested to be 1 or 2 micrograms per cubic meter? 7 A That seems to be the number I would choose, but I 8 would look it up before I got real excited about 9 whether it was right or not. 10 Q And assuming that was right, at least what you were 11 finding here would have been in excess of that; is 12 that right? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q Do you recall having any discussions with Mr. Jezerc 15 regarding your findings? 16 A No specific discussions do I recall. 17 Q Was the information that you were passing on to 18 Appleton Coated Paper Company by way of this air 19 sample analysis consistent with Monsanto's practice Page 64 WATER PCB-00043951 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 20 of sharing results of its PCB investigations with its 21 customers? 22 A Yes, absolutely. 23 MR. BIRKE: Object to form. 24 BY MS. CONLIN: 25 Q I want you to assume, Dr. Tucker, that plaintiffs are Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 72 1 alleging in this case that Monsanto told NCR in 1970 2 that Aroclor 1242 appeared to present no potential 3 environmental contamination problem. 4 Would that be consistent or 5 inconsistent with your view of the facts? 6 MR. BIRKE: Objection, foundation. 7 THE WITNESS: My view of the facts today 8 would be inconsistent with it. 9 BY MS. CONLIN: 10 Q I want you to assume that NCR has taken the position 11 in this case that Monsanto took steps to strictly 12 control higher chlorinated Aroclors such as 1254 and 13 1260 only. Would that be consistent or inconsistent 14 with your view of the facts? 15 A Inconsistent. 16 Q I want you to assume that NCR has taken the position 17 in this case that in April of 1970 Monsanto's focus 18 was strictly on higher chlorinated products only. 19 Would this be consistent or inconsistent with your 20 view of the facts? 21 A Inconsistent. 22 MR. HA: Object toform. Page 65 WATER PCB-00043952 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 23 BY MS. CONLIN: 24 Q I want you to assume that NCR has taken the position 25 in this case that it had no information prior to 1970 Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 73 1 to suggest that its manufacture of NCR paper could 2 pose an environmental contamination risk. 3 Would that be consistent or 4 inconsistent with your view of the facts as you know 5 them? 6 MR. HA: Object to the form. 7 MR. MILLER: Object to the form. You can 8 answer. 9 THE WITNESS: My choice would be 10 inconsistent. 11 BY MS. CONLIN: 12 Q I want you to assume, and if we could turn back for a 13 moment, Dr. Tucker, to Exhibit 895-F, which is in 14 front of you, which is -- we looked at this earlier, 15 which is a report of upcoming meeting with National 16 Cash Register dated June 1 of 1970. Okay? 17 I want you to assume that in this case 18 NCR has taken the position that at this meeting 19 Monsanto simply informed them that it was ceasing to 20 use Aroclor 1242 but never communicated any 21 information to NCR regarding why it was ceasing sale 22 of 1242. 23 Would that be consistent or 24 inconsistent with your view of the June 1, 1970 25 meeting as reflected by the agenda item on 895-F? Page 66 WATER PCB-00043953 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 74 1 MR. HA: Object to form. 2 MR. BIRKE: Object to form. 3 THE WITNESS: My best recollection would be 4 that it would be inconsistent. 5 BY MS. CONLIN: 6 Q Now, finally, I want you to assume that NCR has taken 7 the position in this case that Monsanto was carefully 8 timing its disclosure of information on PCBs in order 9 to further its own business objectives. 10 Would that be consistent or 11 inconsistent with your view of the facts? 12 A Inconsistent. 13 MR. HA: Object to form. 14 MS. CONLIN: I have no further questions. 15 MR. BIRKE: Off the record. 16 VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record at 17 10:41 a.m. 18 (Brief recess taken from 10:41 a.m. to 19 11:02 a.m.) 20 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record at 21 11:02 a.m. 22 MR. LYONS: Good morning, Dr. Coni in. My 23 name is -- Dr. Tucker, excuse me. 24 THE WITNESS: No problem. 25 MR. LYONS: I'll get one of our names right Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 Page 67 75 WATER PCB-00043954 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 1 here. I'm Kevin Lyons. I represent the 2 Neenah-Menasha Sewerage Commission, as I told you 3 earlier today. 4 EXAMINATION 5 BY MR. LYONS: 6 Q Doctor, with regard to all of the work you did 7 concerning PCBs at Monsanto, did you ever speak to 8 anyone at the Neenah-Menasha Sewerage Commission 9 publicly-owned treatment works about PCBs? 10 A No, I don't recall ever doing anything -- no. 11 Q To your knowledge, did anyone from Monsanto ever 12 speak to anyone at the Neenah-Menasha publicly-owned 13 treatment works about PCBs? 14 MR. MILLER: Object to the form. 15 THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge. 16 MR. LYONS: Thank you. No further 17 questions. 18 MR. BIRKE: Dr. Tucker, my name is Dennis 19 Birke. I represent Appleton Papers in this lawsuit. 20 EXAMINATION 21 BY MR. BIRKE: 22 Q Now, you testified this morning that you were first 23 hired at Monsanto in about 1967; is that correct? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q Approximately what month? Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 76 1 A It would have to be in the second or -- well, 2 actually, it would probably be in the third or fourth Page 68 WATER PCB-00043955 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 3 quarter, because short story long, when I had my 4 thesis done, in those days we had typists, and the 5 typist didn't make the deadline, so I didn't defend 6 my thesis in front of the committee. So I went to 7 work for Monsanto, and in -- early in 1968 when the 8 next opportunity came, I went back and defended my 9 thesis successfully and it was awarded in 1968. But 10 I went to work for Monsanto in 1967. 11 Q All right. Now, you testified that when you first 12 started, you were first given a particular 13 assignment; is that correct? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q And then after that, Dr. Keller, as I recall, asked 16 you to review the Jensen-Widmark report, is that 17 correct, with the article? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q And I believe you testified that he, among other 20 things, asked for your thoughts or what you thought 21 about that article; is that correct? 22 A Yes. I'm an analytical chemist, organic analytical 23 chemist, and he wanted an expert review of the 24 article and he wanted my opinion based on my expert 25 review. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 77 1 Q And what was your review? What did you tell him? 2 A I told him that they were competent people and that 3 what they were doing was, to my knowledge, based on 4 what I read in the -- it was a lecture, by the way, 5 what I read in the lecture, was -- looked okay to me. Page 69 WATER PCB-00043956 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 6 However, you know, it would have to be verified 7 physically and actually. 8 Q And what do you mean by verified? 9 A Well, it's like anything we do in the science area, 10 no single scientist makes a publication and everybody 11 just immediately believes him. We like and promote 12 and ask other people to review what we do and to 13 duplicate what we do so that we know what we're doing 14 is correct and consistent and reproducible and real, 15 and not just something that happened. 16 Q Now, it's my recollection that the Jensen-Widmark 17 article was first published in late 1966. Is that 18 your recollection as well? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q And you - 21 A Let me correct that. I'm not sure that -- it became 22 available. Whether or not it was officially 23 published and peer group reviewed and appeared in 24 Nature or one of those magazines, I'm not sure that's 25 correct. But -- Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 78 1 Q Well, this morning you looked at Exhibit 895-B, and 2 if you'll pull that out. 3 A Sure. I'd be happy to. I'll get there. I'm sorry. 4 Go ahead. 5 (Discussion off the record.) 6 THE WITNESS: Oh. You have them in order 7 for me. All right. How kind. No wonder I couldn't 8 find it, because it was supposed to be further down. Page 70 WATER PCB-00043957 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 9 BY MR. BIRKE: 10 Q if you'll look at 895-B. I think it indicates that 11 the date of that letter is February 27, 1967, 12 correct? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q So this was just a few months after the article came 15 out in late 1966? 16 A I'm just looking for a date on this. This says 17 November 22nd. There's a writing in the corner that 18 says November 22nd, 1966. 19 Q Does that seem about right to you? 20 A It could. And like I said - 21 MR. MILLER: Object to the form. 22 THE WITNESS: -- it's a lecture. And the 23 difference I'm making is a lecture is not a peer 24 group reviewed paper that's been published. 25 Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 79 1 BY MR. BIRKE: 2 Q Now, by the time that you started in -- at Monsanto 3 in the latter part of 1967, to your knowledge had 4 Monsanto undertaken any kind of work or research in 5 response to the Jensen-Widmark results? 6 MR. MILLER: Object to the form. 7 THE WITNESS: To my knowledge, no. 8 BY MR. BIRKE: 9 Q And was it, in fact, your understanding that 10 Dr. Keller was asking you to initiate that work? 11 A It became my understanding after he presented me with Page 71 WATER PCB-00043958 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 12 that and asked me to review it, and I reviewed it and 13 told him what I thought. 14 Q Had Monsanto researchers performed the type of 15 analysis that Widmark and Jensen reported in their 16 article? 17 MS. CONLIN: I'm having trouble hearing you 18 down here. Can you speak up a little bit? 19 THE WITNESS: Sure. Do we need to repeat 20 the question? 21 MS. CONLIN: Please. 22 BY MR. BIRKE: 23 Q To your knowledge had Monsanto researchers performed 24 the type of analysis, that is, on wildlife tissue 25 samples, that Jensen and Widmark reported in their Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 80 1 article? 2 MR. MILLER: Object to the form. It's 3 vague and ambiguous. You're referring to the 4 analysis of trace chemicals in wildlife samples, or 5 are you talking about the use of GCMS in the same 6 configuration with the interface that Widmark and 7 Jensen used? 8 MR. BIRKE: I think both of those are part 9 of their analysis, and so both are encompassed in my 10 question. 11 THE WITNESS: And the time frame you're 12 talking about is when Keller talked to me about the 13 article? 14 BY MR. BIRKE: Page 72 WATER PCB-00043959 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 15 Q Yes. 16 A Or the paper. Whatever it was. I don't think he 17 would have asked me to duplicate or to try to do the 18 analysis that Soren Jensen and Gunther Widmark had 19 done if they'd already done it. I mean it was a new 20 kind of thing to the company. We had gas 21 chromatographs, we had electron capture detectors. 22 There's probably a time-of-flight or an old kind of 23 mass spectrometer sitting around, but certainly 24 nothing that was up to par for that kind of stuff. 25 So they were asking me to do something -- Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 81 1 COURT REPORTER: I can't hear you. 2 THE WITNESS: Yeah, and I'm very -- I 3 apologize again. I get going with my thoughts. 4 It was something that was new, and 5 they were asking me to establish it at the applied 6 sciences and to start it. So I would guess they 7 probably hadn't done that specific kind of thing 8 before. 9 BY MR. BIRKE: 10 Q Would you characterize the results that Widmark and 11 Jensen reported as a discovery? 12 A Yes, I would. 13 Q Now, I believe you testified that one of the first 14 things you did upon getting the assignment from 15 Dr. Keller was to acquire various equipment; is that 16 correct? 17 A After I read the article, after I gave my opinion on Page 73 WATER PCB-00043960 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 18 the article, after it was decided that we needed to 19 establish that and allocate funds and do that kind of 20 stuff, yes, that's what we did. 21 Q And what type of equipment did you acquire at that 22 point? 23 A Well, the first thing I did was look around and see 24 what we had available to us in the United States that 25 was equivalent to the equipment that they were using Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 82 1 in Europe. In Europe, I think in about 1965, LKB had 2 come out with the first mass spectrometer that was 3 directly connected to a gas chromatograph, and they 4 were also using gas chromatographs that were 5 connected to electron capture detectors. 6 And so I determined what the 7 scientists in those areas were using, what kind of 8 equipment, because there's a lot of different kinds 9 of gas chromatographs. 10 And it became evident that at that 11 particular point in time what I should be interested 12 in is the gas chromatographs that were used for 13 biomedical applications, because of the type of 14 sample matrices that we'd be dealing with and the 15 sensitivity of some of the constituents that come 16 along with the things that you're looking for. 17 So the first instrument that I bought 18 was a Hewlett Packard -- oh, no. It was an F&M 702 19 which later became Hewlett Packard. And it was a 20 biomedical gas chromatograph. It had glass columns, Page 74 WATER PCB-00043961 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 21 which were inert and didn't cause decompensation and 22 that kind of stuff, and it was the kind that they 23 were using. In addition to that, I bought it 24 equipped with electron capture detectors, which was 25 also the kind of detectors that were being used for Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 83 1 -- predominately for pesticide analysis in the 2 environment. 3 Q Is it correct to say, then, that Monsanto did not 4 have the equipment inhouse to do the kind of analysis 5 that Jensen and Widmark had performed? 6 A It is correct. 7 Q When you -- well, what was the process by which you 8 acquired the various equipment that you just 9 described? 10 A Well, I looked to the manufacturers and reviewed all 11 the stuff -- all the things, all the instrumentation 12 that was available. And then when I decided what I 13 thought was a good thing, I reviewed it with other 14 people that were knowledgeable in the area. We did 15 have a gas chromatography group that did more 16 process-related and product-related kinds of gas 17 chromatography, and we all looked at it and then we 18 agreed that this would be the kind of thing that we'd 19 probably want to start out with, and at that point in 20 time we got authorization to purchase it, it was 21 purchased, and it was shipped to us. 22 Q Upon acquiring the equipment, were you able to begin 23 analyzing wildlife tissue and water and air samples Page 75 WATER PCB-00043962 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 24 immediately? 25 A It would have been nice, but that's more like magic Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 84 1 than not. It didn't work that way. What we had to 2 do was familiarize ourselves with the equipment. We 3 had to make sure that the equipment functioned the 4 way the manufacturer said it did, and that the way it 5 functioned was the kind of function that we needed to 6 do the type of analysis that we wanted to do and had 7 to do to verify it. 8 So we got the equipment in, we set - 9 I set it up. I was the one guy that was doing it at 10 that point in time. I set it up, made sure it was 11 functional, made sure I understood how it functioned. 12 And then at that particular point in 13 time when I was satisfied with the way it worked on 14 the company stand -- the company who made it 15 standards and things of that sort, then I was 16 prepared to look at laboratory samples that were 17 prepared and that I knew had what they had in it; in 18 other words, simple PCBs in a hexane solution, and 19 then run them through the instrument and make sure I 20 got what I got and that kind of thing. So, it wasn't 21 anything that you just said, oh, you know, snap your 22 fingers or anything. 23 Q In the course of your answer you made reference to 24 laboratory standards. What were you talking about? 25 A Yeah. Well, any instrument that you use has to be Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Page 76 WATER PCB-00043963 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 85 1 calibrated, for two reasons. One, to establish the 2 identity to the best of its ability of the molecular 3 constituent you're dealing with, the molecule; and 4 secondly, to establish a response factor for the 5 detection system so you can accurately calculate how 6 much of the material is in the solution you deliver, 7 and then in turn how much of the material is in 8 whatever you got the material out. 9 So if you want to know the parts per 10 million of something in tissue sample, you have to 11 calibrate the instrument so it tells you the parts 12 per million you put in and you can extrapolate that 13 back to the tissue sampling. 14 Q Would it be correct that because this equipment was 15 new at Monsanto that it was necessary for you to 16 develop the laboratory and analytical techniques to 17 do the kind of work that you were planning to do? 18 A That's correct. On the other hand, I was -- it was 19 helpful to understand that people had been analyzing 20 the kinds of samples we were dealing with for 21 pesticides, DDT, which is, of course, a chlorinated 22 hydrocarbon, has very similar properties to PCBs from 23 a physical viewpoint. 24 So they had already established 25 techniques for isolating these things. And what we Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 86 1 really had to do was establish those techniques in Page 77 WATER PCB-00043964 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 2 our laboratory, and then, making sure we knew how to 3 do it and that it was working with knowns, in other 4 words, maybe even with DDT, we'd use that as a flag. 5 Then to make sure that it would work with the PCBs, 6 and we would extend it to the PCBs. Because not - 7 as you asked me earlier, was Soren Jensen's and 8 Gunther Widmark's thing a discovery. It was 9 discovery. Other people weren't doing that. 10 And so then we established that it 11 worked that way and then we felt we were ready to 12 move on to the next level. 13 Q From the time that you were first given the 14 assignment by Dr. Keller, how much time did it take 15 until you completed the process of acquiring the 16 equipment, becoming familiar with it, learning how to 17 use it, and developing the standards that you 18 referred to? 19 A The window that I would think was probably in - 20 probably the last quarter in 1968, in that region. 21 That doesn't mean that nothing was being done between 22 then. As a matter of fact, I think the gas 23 chromatograph wasn't delivered until somewhere in the 24 third or fourth quarter of 1968. 25 (Discussion off the record.) Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 87 1 (Deposition Exhibit No. 895-R marked for 2 identification.) 3 BY MR. BIRKE: 4 Q Doctor, I've given -- Dr. Tucker, I've given you Page 78 WATER PCB-00043965 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 5 what's been marked as Exhibit 895-R. Ask you to take 6 a quick look at this. Do you recognize this 7 document? 8 A Yes, I do. 9 Q Does your name appear on this document? 10 A Yes, it is. I'm on the cc section. 11 Q And do you recall receiving this document in about 12 September of 1968? 13 A I don't doubt it. I don't have an instant memory of 14 it, but there's no question that I received it around 15 September 11th, 1968. 16 Q And what is this document? 17 A It's an Industrial Bio Test, proposed protocols, for 18 studying toxicity of Aroclors relative to things like 19 toxaphene and controls. So it's a proposal for the 20 animal testing studies that they were going to 21 perform. 22 Q And these were animal tests -- testing studies that 23 were being done in response to the Jensen-Widmark 24 results? 25 MR. MILLER: Object to the form. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 88 1 THE WITNESS: The animal studies -- the 2 toxicity studies that had been done on the Aroclors 3 up to that point in time were the kind that were done 4 for products and had been -- were adequate. With the 5 findings that were being indicated by what Soren 6 Jensen and Widmark were doing, I believe they decided 7 to expand the type of -- and create more current Page 79 WATER PCB-00043966 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 8 information relative to the toxicology in terms of 9 animal exposure, because now the compounds were being 10 moved in the same class as DDT and things of that 11 sort. So, it was a natural extension to obtain more 12 information to learn more about the products that you 13 were manufacturing. 14 BY MR. BIRKE: 15 Q Now, you mentioned that there had been some prior 16 testing on Monsanto products, on Aroclor in 17 particular; is that correct? 18 A I -- I don't know of it specifically, but I certainly 19 do know there had been some testing done previously, 20 because it was the standard practice to do certain 21 levels of acute testing and that kind of thing on 22 products from -- just for employee safety. 23 Q And so it would have been Monsanto's practice to 24 perform inhalation and dermatological type exposure 25 tests on a product like Aroclor before it was sold to Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 89 1 customers? 2 MR. MILLER: Let me object to the form. 3 Dr. Tucker is here in his own individual capacity and 4 not here on behalf of Monsanto, but to the extent you 5 know, Dr. Tucker - 6 MR. BIRKE: That's correct, Your Honor - 7 that's correct, Dr. Tucker. 8 THE WITNESS: And I'm not a toxicologist, 9 but we did have Emmet Kelly, who was the director of 10 the medical department, we did have Elmer Wheeler and Page 80 WATER PCB-00043967 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 11 we did have Jack Garrett and those kinds of people 12 who were responsible for what we would call, I guess, 13 industrial hygiene data that would be generated, 14 which was the level at which most things were done at 15 that time from a toxicity viewpoint. 16 BY MR. BIRKE: 17 Q And, by the way, Exhibit 895-R consists of pages 18 numbered GPFOX00045556 through 579. 19 Now, turning to the second page of the 20 document, Doctor, and continuing thereafter, this 21 outlines a whole series of testing that was proposed; 22 is that correct? 23 A Yes, it does. 24 Q And is it your recollection that, in fact, this 25 testing was authorized and undertaken? Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 90 1 A Yes, it was. Yes, it is, I should say. I'm sorry. 2 (Deposition Exhibit No. 895-S marked for 3 identification.) 4 BY MR. BIRKE: 5 Q Dr. Tucker, I've given you what has been marked as 6 Exhibit 895-S. Would you please review that? 7 A (Witness complies.) It's a short document, so I'm 8 going to take the time to read it, if you don't mind. 9 Q Please do. 10 VIDEOGRAPHER: Be a good time to change the 11 tape? Would this be a good time to change the tape? 12 MR. BIRKE: Fine. 13 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the record Page 81 WATER PCB-00043968 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 14 at 11:21 a.m. 15 THE WITNESS: (witness reads.) Okay. 16 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record on 17 tape three at 11:23 a.m. 18 BY MR. BIRKE: 19 Q Dr. Tucker, I've given you what's been marked as 20 Exhibit 895-S. It's a two-page memo numbered 21 MONSFOX00097275 and 74. Do you recognize this 22 document? 23 A Yes, I do. 24 Q Do you recall receiving this document on or about 25 December 30, 1968? Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 91 1 A I don't recall specifically receiving it, but I have 2 no doubt that I did based on my examination of the 3 document. 4 Q Who is W.A. Kuhn? 5 A You know, the one thing that -- question that came to 6 my mind when I looked at this memo is I know 7 everybody there almost except who he is. The 8 conclusion I would draw from my cursory review of the 9 thing is that he had something to do with our 10 Krummrich plant, but I don't know. 11 Q All right. Now, if you'll look to the fourth 12 paragraph, it says, "We are taking three steps to 13 protect ourselves. Scott Tucker and R. Keller are to 14 repeat some of the analytical identification work 15 feeding Aroclor to chickens and seeing if Aroclor is 16 really present as, quote/unquote, shown by the Page 82 WATER PCB-00043969 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 17 literature. I hope we have been falsely accused but 18 maybe Aroclor is present." 19 Is that the type of work that you were 20 undertaking at Dr. Keller's direction? 21 A Right. That was the confirmation work that I was 22 talking about relative to the findings of Widmark and 23 Jensen. 24 Q Now, Jensen and Widmark identified what they thought 25 were PCBs. Those were not identified as Aroclor; is Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 92 1 that correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And was that a matter of some concern to Monsanto? 4 MR. MILLER: Object to the form. 5 THE WITNESS: You mean did Monsanto want 6 them identified as Aroclors? I don't understand the 7 question, please. 8 BY MR. BIRKE: 9 Q Yeah. Let me restate that. 10 Were you attempting to establish that 11 Aroclor could be detected in things such as chicken 12 tissue and other wildlife tissue? 13 A I think it's more of a two- or three-part situation 14 here. PCBs were constituents in Aroclor, and so we 15 were wondering whether there really were PCBs being 16 found in the environment. As to whether or not they 17 were Aroclor, they could or could not be, because 18 PCBs were in Aroclor, but that conclusion hadn't been 19 established. Page 83 WATER PCB-00043970 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 20 And, furthermore, there were any 21 number of manufacturers in Europe and internationally 22 who manufactured PCB-containing products, so -- but, 23 nevertheless, Monsanto was a safe rather than sorry 24 type company. 25 Q Would it be safe to say, then, as of December 30, Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 93 1 1968, Monsanto was still hoping that it had been, 2 quote, falsely accused, closed quote, by allegations 3 in literature? 4 MR. MILLER: Object to the form. 5 THE WITNESS: I think everybody has hopes, 6 but the reality was that they wanted to determine 7 beyond a shadow of a doubt by doing the next proper 8 thing, if it was really true, because nobody wanted 9 to waste time doing things that we didn't need to do. 10 So we were proceeding in what I considered a logical 11 and acceptable manner. 12 So hopes are, you know -- I hope on 13 what my experiments are going to do, but that doesn't 14 change the results, believe me. 15 (Deposition Exhibit No. 895-T marked for 16 identification.) 17 BY MR. BIRKE: 18 Q Dr. Tucker, I've given you what has been marked as 19 895-T. It's a two-page memo numbered MONSFOX00097236 20 and 237. Your name is shown here as a cc. 21 Do you recall receiving this memo on 22 or about January 23, 1969? Page 84 WATER PCB-00043971 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 23 A I don't specifically recall receiving the memo, but 24 after looking at it, I don't have any reason to doubt 25 that I didn't receive it. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 94 1 Q The memo is from P.B. Hodges. Do you recognize that 2 name? 3 A I know Paul Hodges. He was at our general offices. 4 So, yes, I recognize him. 5 Q And the memo is directed to an E.G. Wright and a C.F. 6 Buckley. Do you recognize those names? 7 A Yes, I do. 8 Q And who were they, or who are they? 9 A My recollection is that Paul Hodges had something to 10 do with pollution control at the -- of the processes 11 and of the plant -- of the two plants. And that 12 Wright and Buckley were the process control guys that 13 were responsible for, you know, worrying about that 14 kind of thing then. 15 Q And the two plants that are referenced here, Anniston 16 and Krummrich, were both of those plants that 17 manufactured Aroclor products? 18 A Correct. Both of those plants had Aroclor or 19 PCB-manufacturing facilities on their plant site. 20 Q And, as I understand the memo, the gist of the 21 concern here is about the possible presence of 22 Aroclor in the effluent coming from those two plants. 23 Would that be correct? 24 A I would phrase it more that the question to be 25 answered was whether or not they were there, and Page 85 WATER PCB-00043972 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 95 1 that's why they were asking to have the analysis 2 done. 3 Q Now, the second paragraph in -- under the heading of 4 No. 1 reads, "We do not presently have techniques for 5 analyzing water for Aroclor in low concentrations. 6 It is expected that these techniques will be 7 developed by late this coming fall." That would be 8 the fall of 1969. 9 Is that statement correct based on 10 your knowledge? 11 A It's probably correct for the plant but not 12 necessarily for the research center. 13 Q All right. 14 A Okay. And I don't -- I can't tell from the way the 15 guy's writing it which he's referring to. 16 Q That paragraph goes on to say, "Therefore, please 17 collect freeze and hold indefinitely three 2-3 liter 18 samples of your outfall as it is discharged to 19 natural surface waters." I'm omitting a few words, 20 and then it says, "Scott Tucker, who is developing 21 the analytical procedures, suggests use of 22 polyethylene bottles." 23 Does the fact that your name is 24 referenced there suggest to you that you were going 25 to be analyzing these samples? Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 96 Page 86 WATER PCB-00043973 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 1 A It suggests to me they were probably going to send me 2 the samples, because I lad the capability and they 3 didn't. However, it also suggests that if they took 4 the samples of poly -- it says polyethylene, does it? 5 Q Polyethylene. 6 A Yeah, I would never have recommended that, but that's 7 okay. 8 Q Okay. 9 A From an analytical viewpoint. There's obvious 10 reasons for that, which I can explain, but it's 11 probably not necessary. He was probably worried 12 about breaking the samples in transit. 13 (Deposition Exhibit No. 895-U marked for 14 identification.) 15 BY MR. BIRKE: 16 Q Dr. Tucker, I've handed you a document marked 895-U. 17 It's a three-page memo numbered MONSFOX00097200 18 through 202. Your name is listed as a cc on the 19 memo. 20 A Is that a question? 21 Q No, it's not. 22 A Okay. I'm sorry, because I just -- I wasn't sure 23 whether -24 Q I'd invite you to take a minute to review it, please. 25 A Okay. I'd be happy to do so. (Witness complies.) Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 97 1 MS. CONLIN: Can you confirm, counsel, 2 whether this is 895-U? Page 87 WATER PCB-00043974 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 3 MR. BIRKE: 895-U, correct. 4 MS. CONLIN: Thank you. 5 THE WITNESS: Okay. I've looked at it. 6 BY MR. BIRKE: 7 Q The memo discusses an article published by a 8 Risebrough. Are you familiar with that article? 9 A At one time I'm sure I was. 10 Q And my understanding, based on what I read here, is 11 that it was reporting on the results of some PCB 12 analysis in environmental and wildlife? 13 A My understanding of the work Risebrough initially did 14 was that it was interpretation of analysis that he 15 had done of environmental samples for things like DDT 16 and other chlorinated hydrocarbons. And when he 17 became aware of the Jensen-Widmark work, he reviewed 18 the information that was already generated and 19 concluded that there was a high probability that he 20 was seeing the same unidentified peaks that Soren 21 Jensen and Gunther Widmark had at that point in time 22 first identified as being attributed to PCBs. 23 Q Near the bottom of the page it reads, "Monsanto is 24 preparing to challenge certain aspects of this 25 problem but we are not prepared to defend against all Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 98 1 of the accusations." 2 A Is that the bottom of the first page? It says 3 Monsanto is preparing itself to identify trace PCB 4 quantities? 5 Q The paragraph above it. Page 88 WATER PCB-00043975 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 6 A Above it. Okay, I'm sorry. Yes, I see it. 7 Q Would you agree that Monsanto was viewing the types 8 of results being published by Dr. Risebrough as 9 accusations at that point? 10 MR. MILLER: Object to the form. You can 11 ask Dr. Tucker what he knows or recalls, but not 12 obviously what Monsanto was thinking or doing. He's 13 here on his own individual behalf. 14 THE WITNESS: Right. I mean obviously the 15 point's well made. I don't speak for Monsanto, but I 16 can speak for my recollection. 17 And my feeling was, is that there was 18 a question as to whether or not the information he 19 was using to make his allegations was supportive 20 enough for the extent of the allegations he was 21 making. 22 BY MR. BIRKE: 23 Q And so further study was necessary for - 24 A Further scientific evaluation was necessary to verify 25 the scope and the depth and the reality of the big Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 99 1 picture that was suddenly presented that wasn't 2 necessarily supported by the information that was 3 there. 4 (Deposition Exhibit No. 895-V marked for 5 identification.) 6 BY MR. BIRKE: 7 Q Dr. Tucker, I've handed you an exhibit marked 895-V. 8 It's a two-page memo marked -- numbered GPFOX00037129 Page 89 WATER PCB-00043976 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 9 through 130. You're shown as a cc on the memo. 10 Do you have any doubt that you 11 received this document at or about March 13, 1969? 12 A I don't remember receiving it specifically, 13 obviously, but I don't have any doubts based on a 14 cursory review, if it was a memo sent to me, I 15 received it. 16 Q This is a memo from Dr. Keller. He was your boss at 17 that time; is that correct? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q And who was Elmer Wheeler? 20 A Elmer Wheeler worked for Emmet Kelly who was the head 21 of the medical department. I believe Elmer's 22 expertise was in the area of environmental toxicology 23 and things of that sort, industrial hygiene, that 24 kind of thing. 25 Q Now this memo reports on a call that apparently Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 100 1 Dr. Keller had with a Robert Wright -- Rock of the 2 Federal Water Pollution Control Administration; is 3 that correct? 4 A That's what it says. 5 Q The second paragraph reads, "I explained that we have 6 no methods in writing for the specific detection and 7 measurement of Aroclor in the PPB range in water." 8 Was that a correct statement to your 9 knowledge as of March of 1969? 10 A That's a correct statement that Keller's making. 11 From his opinion we didn't have validated methods Page 90 WATER PCB-00043977 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 12 that we were ready to share, but we would share what 13 we were doing and how we were going about that. 14 Q In the next paragraph, the third sentence reads, "I 15 explained that we felt that no one in the U.S. has 16 actually identified chlorinated biphenyls by mass 17 spectroscopy or a similar technique." 18 Based on your knowledge, do you think 19 that is a correct statement at the time? 20 A Yes, I do. 21 (Deposition Exhibit No. 895-W marked for 22 identification.) 23 BY MR. BIRKE: 24 Q Dr. Tucker, I've handed you a document marked 895-W. 25 It's a two-page letter numbered MONSFOX00089276 and Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 101 1 277. It's a letter to a Dr. Joseph Calandra from 2 Elmer Wheeler. You're shown as a cc. 3 Do you believe you received this 4 document on or about April 15, 1969? 5 A Yes, I do. And it notes that Elmer Wheeler was the 6 environmental health manager, so that's a better 7 explanation than I gave, certainly. 8 Q Good. Now, earlier we had looked at some testing 9 proposed by Bio Test. Do you recall that exhibit? 10 A Yes, I do. 11 Q Is this authorization to proceed with some of the 12 testing that had been described in that earlier 13 proposal? 14 A I would conclude that it is, yes. Page 91 WATER PCB-00043978 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 15 Q And this letter is authorizing the studies identified 16 in paragraphs 5 through 9 on the attachment. Do you 17 see that? 18 A 5 through 9. No, I don't see that. Please help me a 19 little bit here. Oh, study numbers. I thought you 20 were saying paragraph numbers. Okay. He wanted to 21 start, obviously, from what he's saying here, the 22 three generation rat studies - 23 COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry. The three 24 generation rat studies? 25 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry again. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 102 1 BY MR. BIRKE: 2 Q So this letter is authorizing the initiation of 3 various animal studies. There's a three-generation 4 rat study, a two-year chronic rat study, a two-year 5 chronic dogs, chicken reproduction, and then similar 6 testing for Mallard ducks; is that correct? 7 A Correct. It's authorizing the priority of the start 8 and the quantity. 9 Q And so all of this testing was being initiated at 10 that point in time; is that correct? 11 A That would be the conclusion I would draw from this 12 memo, yes. 13 Q To your knowledge, this type of testing had not been 14 authorized by Monsanto with respect to Aroclors 15 previously; is that correct? 16 MR. MILLER: Object to the form. 17 THE WITNESS: No, that's not necessarily Page 92 WATER PCB-00043979 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 18 correct. This may have been a repeat of some 19 information they generated earlier from acute 20 toxicity viewpoint and that kind of thing that they 21 wanted to refresh now. And the objective of this 22 study, as I recall it, was to add -- increase the 23 number of animals so there would be animals available 24 for sacrifice for tissue residue studies. So, I 25 don't know. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 103 1 (Deposition Exhibit No. 895-X marked for 2 identification.) 3 BY MR. BIRKE: 4 Q Dr. Tucker, you've been handed a two-page memo 5 labeled 895-U (sic). It's numbered GPFOX00039483 and 6 four -- through 485. I'm sorry. It's a three-page 7 memo. You're shown as a recipient of this memo dated 8 May 13, 1969. Do you have any doubt that you 9 received it? 10 A No. 11 MR. LYONS: Excuse me. Mr. Birke, I think 12 you said 895-U. I already have an 895-U. 13 MR. BIRKE: I'm sorry. 14 THE WITNESS: This is X. 15 MR. BIRKE: Excuse me. 16 THE WITNESS: Can you speak up just a 17 little bit louder for me, please. 18 MR. BIRKE: Sure. 19 Q So we've corrected that I've handed you what's been 20 marked as 895-X. Page 93 WATER PCB-00043980 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 21 A It's X, correct. 22 Q And I believe -- do you have any recollection 23 receiving this document? 24 A I think I answered earlier that I have no doubt that 25 I received it, but I don't have specific recollection Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 104 1 of it. This is a long time ago. 2 Q Now, this memo reports on a conversation that 3 apparently Mr. Richards had with Professor Widmark. 4 Is that what you understand this to be? 5 A I don't understand it to be a conversation based on 6 the review of the memo, unless it says it in there 7 somewhere where I didn't catch it in my review. But 8 apparently Bill -- it wouldn't surprise me, because I 9 think Bill visited Europe and talked with these 10 folks. It's just really talking about what Widmark 11 was finding, and I think he could have reviewed the 12 lecture, too. 13 Q At the top of page 2 he says, "He reported that he 14 had not isolated or found much chlorinated biphenyl 15 with 1 through 4," and I guess that's "chlorine 16 atoms"? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q This would be -- "This might be because Aroclor 1242 19 and below is more biodegradable, (or it could be due 20 to the analytical isolation and separation methods, 21 or perhaps Aroclor 1242 is less exposed in the 22 world)." Is that correct? 23 A It's conjecture. And you read it correctly. But are Page 94 WATER PCB-00043981 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 24 you asking me if the conjecture is correct? 25 Q No, I'm not asking you that. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 105 1 A Okay. I just want to make sure, because if I said 2 yes, I could be agreeing with these particular 3 conclusions. And I don't necessarily. And, in fact, 4 some of them probably at this point in time we didn't 5 have enough information to say whether it was true or 6 not. 7 Q And what didn't you have enough information about at 8 that time? 9 A Well, we didn't -- I mean this is in 1969. And he's 10 saying that it could be due to analytical isolation 11 and/or separation techniques. Whose analytical or 12 isolation separation techniques? What laboratory is 13 he talking about? if he's talking about the 14 laboratory in Sweden with Gunther Widmark and those 15 folks at the institute there, I think we'd gotten to 16 the point where we validated what they were doing was 17 fine, so I doubt their analytical procedures were 18 getting rid of things that they weren't seeing, as he 19 indicated here. But I mean, it could be another 20 laboratory that wasn't performing it correctly. 21 His assumption that this might be 22 because Aroclor 1242 and below is more biodegradable 23 was probably correct, but it wasn't the full picture. 24 There were portions of it which were biodegradable 25 and portions of it which had a longer lifetime that Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Page 95 WATER PCB-00043982 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 106 1 made it difficult to call it biodegradable. And as 2 far as the 1242 being less of it, less exposed, 3 that's real conjecture. I mean how would you know 4 that one way or the other? 5 Q At the time this memo was prepared in May of 1969, 6 was it understood that -- well, were the 7 biodegradable properties of Aroclor 1242 understood? 8 A They were much better understood than they were back 9 in '66, '67 and that kind of thing. Whether or not 10 we had a complete understanding then on it, I don't 11 know, and I'd have to review the specific documents. 12 But at some point in time, in that 13 region, I certainly had the knowledge that the 14 calcitrant portion of Aroclor 1242 was the 15 pentachloro- and above, which was about 10 percent of 16 the product, and that 90 percent of the product 17 wasn't appearing and it was probably due to 18 biodegradation, which I'd have to look at the 19 specific time I generated the results and confirm 20 that in the laboratory, but we eventually confirmed 21 that. 22 MR. MILLER: Dennis, can we take a 23 five-minute break? We're going to probably be coming 24 up to lunch pretty soon, and I just want to make sure 25 I have those arrangements. Why don't we go off for a Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 107 1 second. Page 96 WATER PCB-00043983 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 2 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the record 3 at 11:52 a.m. 4 (Brief recess taken from 11:52 a.m. to 5 11:59 a.m.) 6 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record at 7 11:59 a.m. 8 BY MR. BIRKE: 9 Q Dr. Tucker, before the break you were making 10 reference to testing regarding the biodegradation 11 properties of Aroclor. Do you remember that 12 testimony? 13 A I remember that we were doing that. 14 Q And you were referencing, I believe, the timing or 15 when that kind of testing occurred. Do you recall? 16 A I believe you were trying to establish a time line in 17 the questions you were asking me. Yes, I recall 18 that. 19 Q And I'd like you to pull out an exhibit we used 20 earlier this morning, 895-1. 21 A Is that on top or -- these are unsorted, I would 22 guess. 23 MR. BIRKE: No, they're in order. 24 THE WITNESS: Okay. So then I need to go 25 to the bottom. I, K. I, 3, K. I've got I, K. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 108 1 Here's 895-1. Here's 895-K, and then M, N. Okay. 2 May be over in this pile. 3 (Discussion off the record.) 4 MR. BIRKE: Here it is. Page 97 WATER PCB-00043984 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 5 THE WITNESS: Okay. Good. Okay. 6 BY MR. BIRKE: 7 Q if you'll turn to page 2, the third paragraph from 8 the bottom of the page, it reads, "River water 9 biodegradation experiments with Aroclors 1221, 1242, 10 1248 and 1254" - 11 A No, I got it. 12 Q -- "will be started 11/25/69. These experiments are 13 a cooperative effort with Dr. R.A. Swisher of the 14 inorganic division." 15 Does that statement help to refresh 16 your recollection about the initiation of 17 biodegradation testing? 18 A Absolutely. It tells me exactly when we began the 19 initiation, which was in November. And of course the 20 memo you showed me earlier was in May. So I think I 21 used the word conjecture when I was talking about 22 Bill and the memo, and so he was at the conjecture 23 level. However, I don't think I would have initiated 24 biodegradation studies if I didn't have an opinion 25 that I wanted to confirm. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 109 1 Q And -- but is it correct to say that there was no 2 laboratory analysis supporting one hypothesis or the 3 other at that point in time, at least within 4 Monsanto, to your knowledge? 5 A Okay. With the addition of the last two things, yes, 6 in the sense that we had not generated that 7 information in our laboratories at Monsanto. We were Page 98 WATER PCB-00043985 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 8 beginning to generate it because we wanted to and we 9 felt it might be the case. Are we getting there? 10 I'm sorry to do that -11 Q I think so. 12 A -- but you're confusing me, so I -13 Q Well, was the -- was it your desire to undertake this 14 testing due in part to uncertainty as to what the 15 biodegradation properties of the various formulations 16 of Aroclor were? 17 A I don't think anybody had verified at that point in 18 time what the actual biodegradation properties of 19 Aroclors were. And so obviously the answer to that 20 question in my opinion would be yes, that we wanted 21 to do that. 22 Q Okay, if you'll pull out Exhibit 895-D. 23 A 895-B? 24 Q D. 25 A D, okay. Thank you. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 110 1 Q This is an exhibit we looked at this morning 2 reporting on your open combustion testing of NCR 3 paper; is that correct? 4 A Yes. 5 VIDEOGRAPHER: Just pushes on. It snaps 6 on. 7 BY MR. BIRKE: 8 Q Sir, was this test performed at your own initiation? 9 A At my suggestion or initiation, if I hadn't 10 initiated it, it wouldn't have been done. And did I Page 99 WATER PCB-00043986 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 11 do it myself, yes. 12 Q To your knowledge or to your recollection did NCR 13 request this test? 14 A I have no knowledge of that. 15 Q As you sit here today, do you have knowledge that 16 these results were shared with NCR? 17 A I do not -- I can't remember whether they were 18 specifically shared with NCR. I know it wasn't my 19 job to do it, and I'm pretty sure I did not report to 20 them directly or there would be a memo documenting 21 that. 22 MR. BIRKE: Thank you. Let's mark this. 23 (Deposition Exhibit No. 895-Y marked for 24 identification.) 25 (Discussion off the record.) Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 111 1 BY MR. BIRKE: 2 Q Now, Dr. Tucker, throughout 1969 and 1970, there was 3 ongoing testing of various sorts regarding Aroclors; 4 is that correct? 5 A During 1969 and 1970 and you're specifically 6 referring to Monsanto? 7 Q That's correct. 8 A That's correct, yes. 9 Q And Aroclor products were used by a number of 10 customers, not just NCR; is that correct? 11 A Yes, that's correct. 12 Q And it was the practice of NCR to -- I'm sorry. It 13 was the practice of Monsanto to communicate Page 100 WATER PCB-00043987 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 14 information to customers regarding what was known 15 about Aroclor products? 16 A I don't speak for Monsanto, but it was my experience 17 that that was the case. 18 Q And during this time period, did you have occasion to 19 see letters that went from Monsanto to various 20 customers regarding the types of Monsanto products 21 that they were using? 22 A I may have, but it wasn't a practice. 23 Q All right. We've put in front of you what's been 24 marked as 895-Y. Do you have that in front of you? 25 A Yes, I do. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 112 1 Q Would you take a minute and look through the first 2 two pages of that, at least. 3 A First two pages? 4 Q Yes. 5 A Okay. (Witness complies.) I've read the first two 6 pages. 7 Q Now, this morning you talked about Monsanto's 8 practice of, as you understood it, of providing 9 information to its customers. Is 895-Y an example of 10 the kinds of information that was being provided to 11 Monsanto customers? 12 MR. MILLER: Object to the form. 13 THE WITNESS: It could be an example of it, 14 but it's not very clear whether this was provided to 15 a customer or who it was provided to. It just says 16 "Dear Sir." So if you're asking me to say was this Page 101 WATER PCB-00043988 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 17 an example of something that was provided directly to 18 customers, I'm not in a position to answer that 19 question, because I would have to say I don't know. 20 BY MR. BIRKE: 21 Q Well, let's refer to the third paragraph where it 22 says, "As your supplier of Aroclor 1254 and 1260 and 23 formulated products containing 1254, we wish to alert 24 you to the potential problems of environmental 25 contamination as referred to in the newspaper and Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 113 1 magazine articles." Do you see that? 2 A Yes, I do. 3 Q Does that suggest to you that this is going to 4 persons -- or companies whom Monsanto supplies with 5 those products? 6 MS. CONLIN: Objection, foundation. 7 THE WITNESS: I see one memo to nobody from 8 somebody I don't recognize, and I'm here to tell you 9 that I don't know if it went to anybody or everybody. 10 And so I'm not in a position to comment on that, so I 11 just have to say I don't know. 12 MR. BIRKE: Okay. Okay. 13 Q At the bottom of the page there's -- of the first 14 page, there's a line beginning, "We would like to 15 point out the following additional facts," and if you 16 jump down to paragraph two, that says, "PCBs with a 17 chlorine content of less than 54 percent have not 18 been found in the environment and appear to present 19 no potential problems to the environment." Page 102 WATER PCB-00043989 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 20 Based upon what you know -- knew as of 21 February 9, 1970, do you believe that's a correct 22 statement? 23 MR. MILLER: Object to the form. 24 THE WITNESS: I don't know whether to say 25 it's correct or not, and let me establish why. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 114 1 What has been said about environmental 2 samples that were analyzed is that the PCBs that were 3 being found in environmental samples were 4 predominantly reflective of Aroclor 1254 and Aroclor 5 1260. 6 We've already established, I think 7 earlier, by reviewing documents that if they were 8 fresh enough and we were close enough and you wanted 9 to consider an effluent sample as environmental, you 10 know, then the answer to your question would be 11 obvious. 12 So, PCBs with a chlorine content of 13 less than 50 percent have not been found in the 14 environment and appear to present no potential 15 problem to the environment. I'm not qualified to 16 even comment on that statement. But do I -- and your 17 question was -- repeat your question for me, make 18 sure I'm - 19 BY MR. BIRKE: 20 Q Well, I think you've answered the question I asked 21 you. 22 A For my own benefit, though, would you be kind enough Page 103 WATER PCB-00043990 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 23 to repeat the question? 24 MR. BIRKE: Sure. Read back the question. 25 (Question read.) Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 115 1 MR. MILLER: There's no question pending. 2 You said you weren't qualified. 3 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 4 MR. BIRKE: I think now might be a good 5 time for lunch. Let's do that. 6 MR. MILLER: Sure. 7 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the record 8 at 12:14 p.m. 9 (Lunch recess taken from 12:14 p.m. to 1:10 10 p.m.) 11 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record on 12 take four at 1:10 p.m. 13 MR. LYONS: Good afternoon, Doctor. I'm 14 Kevin Lyons, again, from the Neenah-Menasha Sewerage 15 Commission. 16 EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. LYONS: 18 Q I'd like to direct your attention to Exhibit 895-T. 19 A T as in Tom? 20 Q As in Tom, and specifically the paragraph with the 21 arabic No. 1. 22 A if you give me a second, I will -23 Q Yes, sir. Take as much time as you need. 24 A -- locate it. 25 MR. MILLER: Here. You can just use mine. Page 104 WATER PCB-00043991 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 116 1 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much. I 2 appreciate that. 3 BY MR. BIRKE: 4 Q I believe before the break counsel asked you some 5 questions about this exhibit and it brought a 6 question or two to my mind. 7 if you look in the second full 8 paragraph under the arabic No. 1, about midway down, 9 there is an indication that the writer of this memo, 10 Mr. Hodges, asked for the arrangement of samples to 11 be taken from the outlet of the village. Do you see 12 that, sir? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Do you know if such sampling was ever done at the 15 village referred to in Exhibit 895-T? 16 A Okay. Let me locate the village, the word "village." 17 Q It's seven lines down in that second full paragraph 18 after the arabic No. 1. 19 A Okay. Outlet of village waste treatment plant. 20 Let's see. Therefore, please collect and freeze -21 Q All I want to know, sir, is if you know whether or 22 not Monsanto ever took any of the samples that the 23 village waste treatment plant referred to in 895-T? 24 A I don't specifically recall whether they did, but my 25 assumption is they probably did based on the review Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 117 Page 105 WATER PCB-00043992 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 1 of the memo, and I wouldn't doubt that they had. 2 Q All right. Sir, does this memo refresh your 3 recollection as to whether or not Monsanto ever 4 arranged for a similar sampling at the outfall of the 5 Neenah-Menasha publicly-owned treatment works? 6 MR. MILLER: We -- object to the form. Do 7 you mean Monsanto went out and took the samples or 8 collected the samples? 9 BY MR. LYONS: 10 Q Fair enough. 11 Do you recall, sir, if Mr. Hodges ever 12 directed anyone to take the kind of samples he's 13 talking about in 895-T at the Neenah-Menasha 14 publicly-owned treatment works? 15 A I have no idea. 16 MR. LYONS: Thanks. That's all I have. 17 EXAMINATION 18 BY MR. BIRKE: 19 Q Dr. Tucker, are you familiar with the term "broke" as 20 used in the paper industry? 21 A Not real familiar with it, no. I probably heard it 22 used before, but I'm not specific -- I don't 23 specifically understand it. 24 Q i'll represent to you that the term "broke" is 25 sometimes used to refer to paper trimmings and the Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 118 1 like that are produced in the course of manufacturing 2 paper and, in particular, NCR carbonless copy paper. Page 106 WATER PCB-00043993 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 3 In the course of your work at 4 Monsanto, did you ever have occasion to do any type 5 of testing regarding broke - 6 A No. 7 Q -- or otherpapertrimmings associated with NCR 8 carbonless copy paper? 9 A No. 10 Q Would you pull out 895-1. 11 A (Witness complies.) I remember that one. It should 12 be in the right pile because the I was -- that's it, 13 right? 14 Q No. 15 A It looks like -- that's a Y. That's close. 16 MR. MILLER: It looks like this. 17 THE WITNESS: i'll be happy to let anybody 18 go through this pile, but I didn't locate I. 19 MR. MILLER: Do you want to use mine? 20 THE WITNESS: There it is. We got it. 21 BY MR. BIRKE: 22 Q As I recall, this was the same exhibit we had trouble 23 finding the first time. It's a stubborn one. 24 We looked at this before our break, 25 and we were looking at page 2 near the bottom where Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 119 1 it refers to the river water biodegradation 2 experiments that Dr. Swisher was initiating. Do you 3 see that? 4 A (Witness nods.) 5 Q Do you know how long it took to complete the river Page 107 WATER PCB-00043994 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 6 water biodegradation experiments? 7 A Just a minor correction to your interpretation of the 8 paragraph. Swisher was being cooperative in that he 9 provided answers to my questions and that kind of 10 stuff. The actual work was not done by Bob. It was 11 done by myself or one of my people. 12 if I remember correctly, the river 13 die-away test is a fairly rapid test, because the 14 biological population in the water that's being used 15 is not being supported in any way, shape or form by 16 being fed or anything besides what's there and what 17 you put in there. And so it would be a week -- it 18 would be in the week time frame. 19 Q Okay. Now, in the -- a couple of paragraphs above 20 that, you were asked about the paragraph beginning, 21 "The area percent of each homologue." 22 A Um-hmm. 23 Q This morning I believe you were asked some questions 24 about that paragraph, and I wanted to follow up on 25 that. And in particular, the last sentence that Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 120 1 says, "At least 46 chlorinated biphenyls were 2 detected. Homologues containing 5 to 10 chlorines 3 per molecule accounted for" six -- sorry - 4 "7.69 percent of the Aroclor;" is that correct? 5 A That's correct in what it says, yes. 6 Q Now, when you were asked questions about that this 7 morning, I believe you testified that this indicated 8 to you that this meant that less than 10 percent, and Page 108 WATER PCB-00043995 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 9 to be precise, 7.69 percent, of the homologues there 10 were in excess of the five chlorines per molecule, 11 correct? 12 A Less than 10 percent of the polychlorinated biphenyl 13 material in that particular sample that was used were 14 PCBs that were in the 5 to 10 range. That's what 15 you're saying, that's what it meant. Okay. 16 Q Yes. And I believe it's your testimony that it was 17 the homologues that had more than five chlorines per 18 atom that were considered the higher chlorinated 19 PCBs, higher chlorinated Aroclors? 20 MR. MILLER: Object to the form. 21 MS. CONLIN: Join. 22 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Yes, that was the 23 general terminology that was used for this specific 24 application. 25 Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 121 1 BY MR. BIRKE: 2 Q And I believe you were making a distinction earlier 3 that your research was finding that molecules with 4 more than five chlorines - 5 MR. BIRKE: Let's go off. 6 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the record 7 at 1:19 p.m. 8 (Discussion off the record.) 9 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record at 10 1:20 p.m. 11 BY MR. BIRKE: Page 109 WATER PCB-00043996 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 12 Q Dr. Tucker, I'm trying to get at the breakdown you 13 did earlier regarding the components of Aroclor 1242. 14 And as I recall your testimony, you were indicating 15 that all Aroclors contain some components that have 16 in excess of five chlorines; is that correct? 17 MR. MILLER: Let me object to the form. 18 You can answer. 19 THE WITNESS: On a theoretical basis, 20 there's no reason why they shouldn't. On the other 21 hand, there are some specific chemical reasons why 22 Aroclor 1221, for example, might not have any 23 pentachlorobiphenyl in it. I mean the conditions 24 might not have been long enough, the chlorine hadn't 25 been around. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 122 1 So it's feasible that each Aroclor, 2 each polychlorinated biphenyl compound, each 3 polychlorinated biphenyl product that was 4 manufactured by direct chlorination could contain one 5 of each, every isomer. Okay. However, if you're 6 making Aroclor 1221, which is a dichloro-, it's only 7 21 percent, the probability of producing penta-, 8 hexa-, hepta-, octa-, nona- and et cetera, above, 9 becomes minutia. So from an -- you can't say it's 10 not there, but you can't say it's in there, because 11 on a probability basis, it could be there on some 12 1evel. 13 So I'm not sure that answers your 14 question. But there's good reasons, also, to Page 110 WATER PCB-00043997 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 15 understand from other chemistry viewpoints that 16 certain kinds of isomers are not present in 17 polychlorinated biphenyls. And I published an 18 internal article that dealt with that in terms of the 19 probability of certain kinds of isomers being there 20 and each of the constituents and the actual 21 concentrations, and it went through and said those 22 kinds of things. And it delineated very clearly what 23 the pentachloro- and above meant. 24 So I'm not sure I've answered your 25 question, but -- I'm not sure I can answer your Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 123 1 question the way it's been asked. 2 BY MR. BIRKE: 3 Q All right. The statement on 895-1 here that we've 4 been looking at, when you're referring to 5 to 10 5 chlorines per molecule, you're referring to 6 substances that were of at least a penta- level and 7 hexa- and of higher chlorine content than that? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And those are the types of Aroclor formulations that 10 were less prone to biodegradation; is that a correct 11 statement? 12 MR. MILLER: Object to the form. 13 THE WITNESS: No. They were the portions 14 or the isomers that were present in Aroclor products 15 that were being found in the environment in very aged 16 samples, indicating that their lifetime in the 17 environment was very long, and the other ones weren't Page 111 WATER PCB-00043998 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 18 being found, indicating that something was happening 19 to them and they were going away. 20 This -- this -- this here is intended 21 to establish what the content of the product is 22 relative to the homologues; a homologue being a 23 penta-, a hexa-, and so on. And it's injected into a 24 gas chromatograph, you use a support-coated open 25 tubular column -- Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 124 1 COURT REPORTER: Use a what? 2 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. It's injected 3 into a gas chromatograph with a support-coated open 4 tubular column, a SCOT column, which is a very high 5 resolution column, and it separates the mixture into, 6 to the best of our ability, into its 7 multi-components, almost down to the isomer level in 8 some routines, but certainly down to the homologue 9 level, based on boiling point and attraction for 10 liquid phase. 11 So if you look at the chromatogram, 12 you can draw a line in the center of the chromatogram 13 starting at zero, where on the right, everything that 14 would be a penta-, chloro- or above would be, and 15 where on the left, everything that would be less than 16 a tetra or less would be. 17 And then you can calculate, depending 18 on the area and the response, what the percentage of 19 the pentachloro- and above compounds are. That's all 20 that's saying. It has nothing to do with environment Page 112 WATER PCB-00043999 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 21 or anything of the sort. It has to do with product 22 composition and its resolution to the best of our 23 ability on a homologue basis with the best analytical 24 techniques available. I don't know whether that 25 helps or not. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 125 1 BY MR. BIRKE: 2 Q Okay. Let's turn to 895-K. 3 A Okay. I found K. 4 Q And we looked at -- you were asked questions about 5 this document early this morning, and I'd direct your 6 attention to the second to the last paragraph on 7 page 1 where it indicates the "EC/GC indicated that 8 no biodegradation was occurring." 9 Now, would the fact that there was no 10 biodegradation observed here be explained by the fact 11 that this was a -- that this may have been a fresh 12 release of Aroclor 1242 without any opportunity for 13 weathering? 14 A Yes. And, as it points out, there is a memo 15 discussing the subject with much more detail that's 16 avai1able. 17 MR. BIRKE: I don't have extra copies of 18 the memo that I'm going to ask questions about. I'll 19 provide it to you -- do you want to look at it first? 20 MS. CONLIN: Can I look at it? March 1, 21 '74. 22 (Discussion off the record.) 23 MR. MILLER: Can I see it, please? Page 113 WATER PCB-00044000 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 24 MR. BIRKE: Yeah. 25 MS. CONLIN: Is it your intent, counsel, to Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 126 1 mark that as an exhibit? 2 MR. BIRKE: Yes. I guess I'd propose that 3 we put the label on a copy of this that does not bear 4 my highlighting. 5 MS. CONLIN: That was going to be my 6 objection. I believe it's been highlighted by you. 7 MR. BIRKE: Do you want to take a break and 8 have a copy made? 9 MS. CONLIN: It's up to you. 10 MR. LYONS: I'd like to at least see it. 11 MR. BIRKE: Let's take a break. 12 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the record 13 at 1:28 p.m. 14 (Brief recess taken from 1:28 p.m. to 1:32 15 p.m.) 16 (Deposition Exhibit No. 895-Z marked for 17 identification.) 18 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record at 19 1:32 p.m. 20 BY MR. BIRKE: 21 Q Dr. Tucker, I've given you what's been marked as 22 895-Z. It's a two-page memo dated March 1, 1974. 23 It's a memo from W.B. Papageorge to several people, 24 including yourself. It's numbered MONSFOX00029468 25 and 469. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Page 114 WATER PCB-00044001 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 127 1 Have you had a chance to look through 2 it? 3 A No, but I will shortly. (Witness reads.) Yes. 4 Q Now, the first sentence says, "As you know, we must 5 submit written testimony relating to PCB effluent 6 standards by March 15." 7 As you sit here today, do you recall 8 what state this -- or government agency this 9 testimony was being prepared for? 10 A No. 11 Q And it indicates that various topics were being 12 assigned, and near the bottom of the page it 13 indicates that you were responsible for a number of 14 topics including PCB characteristics, biodegradation, 15 definition, analytical methodology, and sampling. 16 Were you involved in the preparation 17 of testimony of this nature from time to time during 18 this time period? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And basically what did your responsibilities 21 typically entail? 22 A I think it's delineated here in this particular memo 23 for what we're talking about. There was overlapping 24 responsibility amongst the people, obviously, but I 25 had been assigned areas which I had expertise; PCB Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 128 1 characterization, physical and chemical, Page 115 WATER PCB-00044002 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 2 biodegradation, definition, analytical methodology 3 and sampling. My assumption is we each prepared our 4 own documents and then submitted for a group review. 5 Q And who, again, is W.P. Papageorge? 6 A Bill Papageorge was a gentleman who used to be down 7 at the Anniston, Alabama plant. I think he ran the 8 plant, as a matter of fact. And he was early on 9 brought aboard to act as an overall coordinator and 10 interface with all agencies and everybody that needed 11 information, so that we'd be doing it and focusing it 12 through one individual and we'd have an understanding 13 of what was going on. 14 Q Can you recall approximately how many times you were 15 involved in preparing written testimony of the kind 16 that's described here? 17 A I haven't the faintest idea, no. 18 Q Was it more than five? 19 MR. MILLER: Object to the form. 20 THE WITNESS: I would assume it probably 21 exceeded five. 22 BY MR. BIRKE: 23 Q Would it exceed ten? 24 MR. MILLER: Object to the form. Calls for 25 speculation. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 129 1 THE WITNESS: We're actually getting in a 2 guessing game here, so -- I don't know, but there was 3 a number of times would be the best way for me to 4 state it. Page 116 WATER PCB-00044003 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 5 BY MR. BIRKE: 6 Q Okay. On the last paragraph, page 2, it says, "I am 7 attempting to arrange for a discussion with Dr. G. 8 Fred Lee, Consultant, to determine if he can be of 9 any assistance." Do you have -- do you know who 10 Dr. G. Fred Lee is? 11 A I recognize the name, and at one time I knew who he 12 was, but I do not recollect at this point in time 13 what his specific -- what the specifics are. 14 (Deposition Exhibit No. 895-AA marked for 15 identification.) 16 THE WITNESS: AA. 17 BY MR. BIRKE: 18 Q Dr. Tucker, I've handed you what's been marked as 19 Exhibit 895-AA. It's a multipage document numbered 20 NCRFOX0281394 through 0281469. I'll represent to you 21 that this is the transcript of a hearing held in 22 Wisconsin regarding proposed administrative rules 23 relating to the discharge of polychlorinated 24 biphenyls into the waters of the state, and the first 25 page of the document indicates that the hearing was Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 130 1 held on August 28 and 29, 1975. 2 Do you have any recollection of attending 3 this hearing? 4 A No. 5 Q And, in fact, if you'll turn to pages 1 through 4, it 6 lists persons who made appearances, and if you'll 7 turn to page 2, it indicates that there were Page 117 WATER PCB-00044004 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 8 appearances by William Papageorge and Dr. Paul Wright 9 on behalf of Monsanto. Do you see that? 10 A Yes, I do, and that confirms what I said, I think. 11 Q And who was Dr. Wright? 12 A Paul Wright was -- I think he worked in Emmet Kelly's 13 area with Elmer Wheeler, with Jack Garrett in the 14 environmental area there, and I think he was kind of 15 like an animal toxicologist, a rat man, if I remember 16 correctly. Oh, no. That was -- no. Backup to what 17 I said previously. 18 Q And is it consistent with your understanding of 19 Mr. Papageorge's duties and responsibilities at the 20 time for him to appear at a function like this on 21 behalf of Monsanto? 22 A Yes. 23 MR. MILLER: Object to the form, lack of 24 foundation. 25 Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 131 1 BY MR. BIRKE: 2 Q Now if you'll turn to page 26. 3 A (Witness complies.) Okay. 4 Q Near the top of the page the hearing examiner 5 indicates that "The next person appearing on behalf 6 of and at the request of the Department of Natural 7 Resources is Mr. W.B. Papageorge." Will you please 8 step up here, sir, and he does so, and he makes some 9 opening remarks. And I'm reading in the second 10 paragraph of his remarks here. Page 118 WATER PCB-00044005 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 11 He makes the statement, "It's my 12 considered opinion that if we could just turn the 13 clock back and only use, let's say 1221, a 1232 or 14 even a 1242 and no others, we probably wouldn't be 15 sitting in this room today. I just don't think a 16 problem would have developed." 17 Dr. Tucker, based on your knowledge as 18 of 1975, is that a correct statement? 19 MR. MILLER: Object to the form. 20 MS. CONLIN: Objection, foundation. 21 MR. MILLER: Lack of foundation. It's 22 vague and ambiguous. Which part of it? The 23 existence or absence of a problem or -- which is a 24 vague and undefined term. 25 Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 132 1 BY MR. BIRKE: 2 Q Do you understand? 3 A I understand the words, certainly, and I understand 4 what the sentences say, certainly. And I understand 5 that it's a-okay for Bill Papageorge to have that 6 particular opinion. 7 You're asking me as a scientist 8 whether or not what Bill is saying is true. And what 9 Bill is saying may be true to Bill, but it may not be 10 to me, and the relevance doesn't -- so let me read it 11 again and see, in 1975, if I can even begin to 12 believe -- know where I was at, precluding -- okay. 13 (Witness reads.) Page 119 WATER PCB-00044006 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 14 Basically what I understand him as 15 saying is that if we use materials that didn't have 16 any penta- and hexa- and above chlorinated biphenyls 17 in them that were being found in aged -- in all the 18 aged samples, that we would not have the problem of 19 refractory PCBs existing in the environment and 20 accumulating. And he extends that to Aroclor 1242. 21 And we've already established that 22 Aroclor 1242 had 10 percent of those kinds of 23 materials in it. So what that would mean to me is 24 that Bill is extrapolating that that little amount of 25 material relative to the uses of Aroclor 1242 might Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 133 1 not have caused a problem, or, he could be referring 2 to the fact that there were some substitutes being 3 proposed where those materials were almost completely 4 removed from the 1242. 5 So, you know, asking me to tell you 6 what was in another person's mind is very difficult 7 for me, but that would be my understanding of what I 8 think he was saying at that point in time in history. 9 MR. BIRKE: I think we may be done, but 10 let's just take a quick break and we'll confirm that. 11 MR. MILLER: Sure. 12 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the record 13 at 1:42 p.m. 14 (Brief recess taken from 1:42 p.m. to 1:45 15 p.m.) 16 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record at Page 120 WATER PCB-00044007 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 17 1:45 p.m. 18 (Deposition Exhibit No. 895-BB marked for 19 identification.) 20 MS. CONLIN: IS this BB? 21 MR. LYONS: Yes22 EXAMINATION 23 BY MS. CONLIN: 24 Q Dr. Tucker? 25 A Yes. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 134 1 Q This morning counsel for the plaintiffs was talking 2 with you about the time frame in which Monsanto 3 undertook analytical work relative to the Jensen and 4 Widmark study. Do you recall that questioning by 5 counsel? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Okay. Now, what I've handed you is what's been 8 marked as Exhibit 895-BB, which bears the Bates No. 9 GPFOX30433, and is a letter from Dr. Kelly to David 10 Wood, and in the first sentence it's written, "Thank 11 you for the information you sent me," and that's a 12 reference, I will represent to you, to the 13 Jensen-Widmark work. Quote, "I am having our 14 analytical people, as well as NCR here in the States, 15 evaluate it." Do you see that? 16 A Yes, I do. 17 Q And the date of this is February 27th of 1967; is 18 that right, sir? 19 A That's correct, on my copy. Page 121 WATER PCB-00044008 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 20 Q Now, are you aware of any work that NCR undertook to 21 actually evaluate the Jensen and Widmark work when it 22 came out? 23 MR. HA: Object to form. Are you saying in 24 February of 1967? 25 MS. CONLIN: That's correct. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 135 1 THE WITNESS: No. 2 MR. HA: I'm going to object to foundation 3 because I think it predates his employment. 4 BY MS. CONLIN: 5 Q Are you aware at any point, Dr. Tucker, of NCR 6 undertaking its own work to evaluate the findings of 7 Jensen and Widmark? 8 A No. 9 Q Are you aware of any work by NCR to look at, on their 10 own, the findings of Risebrough? 11 A No. 12 Q Now, would the sharing of the Jensen and Widmark work 13 with NCR be consistent with the type of practice of 14 sharing that you would expect to exist at Monsanto? 15 A Yes. 16 MR. HA: Object to form. 17 MR. BIRKE: Object to form. 18 BY MS. CONLIN: 19 Q Now, if we could direct your attention back, Doctor, 20 to Exhibit 895-D. 21 A 895-B as in - 22 MS. CONLIN: D as in dog. Page 122 WATER PCB-00044009 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 23 THE WITNESS: D as in dog, okay. Okay. 24 BY MS. CONLIN: 25 Q And this, Dr. Tucker, is the March 4th, 1969 memo Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 136 1 regarding the burning of NCR paper. Do you recall 2 testimony on that? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Okay. And I believe counsel for plaintiffs asked you 5 whether you were aware of whether this -- the results 6 of this was ever shared with NCR. Do you recall that 7 testimony? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Okay. 10 (Deposition Exhibit No. 895-CC marked for 11 identification.) 12 BY MS. CONLIN: 13 Q I'd direct your attention to Exhibit 895-CC, which 14 bears Bates Nos. MONFOX97702 through 97703. 15 This is a memo by Cumming Paton to 16 Messrs. Farrar and Wheeler dated November 17th, 1969. 17 Do you see that? 18 A Yes, I do. This has a GPFOX number, not a MONFOX 19 number, but I don't know how important that is. 20 Q I'm sorry. Could I borrow that? Exhibit 895-CC 21 bears Bates Nos. GPFOX58736 through 58737. I 22 apologize. 23 A That's correct, okay, on the copies I have. Thank 24 you. 25 Q And listed there -- now, did you have occasions to Page 123 WATER PCB-00044010 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 137 1 interact with Mr. Paton, Mr. Farrar, and Mr. Wheeler 2 as it related to your PCB work? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And how about Messrs. Springgate and Wilde? 5 A Springgate. And Wilde, maybe. But those two people 6 I didn't interact with very often at all. 7 Q Now, this memo sets forth an upcoming agenda for a 8 meeting with NCR, specifically Howard Lauer for 9 December 16th at 9:00 a.m. Do you see that? 10 A Yes, I do. 11 Q And I'd like to direct your attention down to Issues 12 1 and 2 which Paton is proposing as expanded agenda 13 items. 14 A Okay. 15 Q Do you see that? 16 A Yes, I do. 17 Q And he describes here that some of the things to be 18 discussed include "effluent analysis, progress on 19 biodegradation of Aroclor 1242, and NCR plant 20 clean-up." Do you see that? 21 A Yes, I do. 22 Q And then under No. 2 at the end it says, "Preliminary 23 incineration data on Aroclor 1242 and NCR paper." Do 24 you see that? 25 A Yes, I do. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 138 Page 124 WATER PCB-00044011 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 1 Q Would that be consistent with the type of information 2 that would be being shared with NCR as your work 3 evolved? 4 MR. HA: Objection, foundation. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 BY MS. CONLIN: 7 Q And would it be consistent with -- well, let me 8 strike that and ask a different way. 9 You would agree that your 10 understanding of the PCB issue evolved over time, Dr. 11 Tucker. Is that a fair summary of what you've 12 testified to earlier? 13 A Yes. 14 MR. HA: Object to form. 15 MS. CONLIN: Okay. 16 MR. LYONS: I didn't get the answer because 17 of the objection. What was it? 18 THE WITNESS: My answer was yes. 19 MR. LYONS: Thank you. 20 BY MS. CONLIN: 21 Q And would it be fair to state that you were timely 22 informing your supervisors as you were uncovering the 23 issues related to PCBs? 24 A Yes, absolutely. 25 Q Did any of your supervisors ever suggest to you that Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 139 1 they were keeping that information from Monsanto 2 customers such as NCR? Page 125 WATER PCB-00044012 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 3 MR. HA: Object to form. 4 THE WITNESS: Absolutely not. 5 BY MS. CONLIN: 6 Q Now I'd like to direct your attention to 895-K, which 7 counsel also referenced during his examination. 8 A Okay. I have K. 9 Q And if you'd like to, sir, as long as you're digging, 10 if you could pull out Exhibit 895-L. 11 A Okay. 12 Q I'm going to reference both of those. 13 A The documents I have in front of me jump from K to M. 14 Q It looks like this, Doctor. It's a one-page document 15 that's got a table on it. 16 A I may have it, but it's just taking me a little 17 longer to find it, if I do have it. And I thought - 18 MR. MILLER: Do you want to use mine? 19 THE WITNESS: But I'd be happy to look at 20 another copy. Is that the memo we're talking about? 21 BY MS. CONLIN: 22 Q That's correct. So you have in front of you 895-K 23 and 895-L? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Now, when counsel for plaintiffs was questioning you, Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 140 1 he directed you to 895-K, and specifically the second 2 to last paragraph regarding sampling of 1242 at NCR's 3 plant in Wisconsin. Do you recall that questioning? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And he stated to you, or asked you, whether the Page 126 WATER PCB-00044013 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 6 "EC/GC indicated that no biodegradation was 7 occurring." I think he asked you if that was fresh 8 Aroclor. 9 A Yes. 10 Q Do you recall that? And then the last sentence here 11 says, "A memo discussing the subject was issued." 12 I think we previously established that 13 that memo is 895-L? 14 A Okay. And I have my exhibit copy of it now. 15 Q Okay, great. And so I'd like to direct you to 895-L, 16 which is a December 3rd, 1969 memo from you regarding 17 the samples at NCR plant in Wisconsin. And I'd like 18 to direct your attention down to the last paragraph 19 there. 20 "However, it is possible that the high 21 level of fresh Aroclor present has completely masked 22 any degradation that might have occurred to Aroclor 23 previously discharged." Do you see that? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay. And did you, in fact, find as a result of Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 141 1 later testing that there were portions of 1242 that 2 wasn't degrading as you testified to previously? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Now, if you can take a look at 895-R, which is the 5 Industrial Bio Test Labs, the thicker document. 6 A Yes. 7 Q Counsel showed you this this morning, and if we could 8 direct your attention to the third page of the Page 127 WATER PCB-00044014 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 9 exhibit, which bears Bates No. GPFOX45558. 10 A I have it. 11 Q Okay. And one of the indications here was a 12 three-generation reproduction study in rats. Do you 13 recall that testimony? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And I believe you indicated that that, in fact, 16 subsequently took place? 17 A Yes. 18 (Deposition Exhibit No. 895-DD marked for 19 identification.) 20 BY MS. CONLIN: 21 Q I've handed you, Dr. Tucker, what's been marked as 22 895-DD, as in dog, dog, which is a multi page document 23 bearing Bates PHGNCR2005292 through 2005296. 24 Do you see that this is a memorandum dated 25 2/12/71 addressed to you and others? Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 142 1 A Yes. 2 Q Okay. And I'd like to direct your attention, sir, to 3 the Bates page, I'll read the last three numbers, 4 295. 5 A I have it. 6 Q Okay. And on that page it shows the sampling, water 7 sampling at National Cash Register in Portage, 8 Wisconsin, correct? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Finding the presence of 1242? 11 A Yes. Page 128 WATER PCB-00044015 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 12 Q And then also Appleton Coated Paper Company, finding 13 the presence of 242 (sic) in air and water samples; 14 is that right, Doctor? 15 A Yes. I'm sure you meant 1242. 16 Q 1242. Thank you for the correction. 17 Now if we could turn to the last page 18 of this exhibit, 895-DD. There's an entry here near 19 the bottom, "Miscellaneous Support Work." Do you see 20 that, Doctor? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And it says "Bio Test Laboratory Tissue Studies." Do 23 you see that? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And, in fact, it's got a reference there to rats? Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 143 1 A Yes. 2 Q And based on a number of 48 samples, what is shown as 3 having been found in the rats? 4 A Aroclor 1242, 1248 and 1254. 5 Q And is that the Bio tech lab work that is referenced 6 in 895-R? 7 A I'm quite sure it is, yes. 8 Q All right. Finally, Doctor, counsel for plaintiffs 9 asked you about broke. Do you recall that? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Okay. And I think you testified that you were not 12 aware of whether there had been any work done testing 13 certain recycling aspects. Do you recall that 14 testimony? Page 129 WATER PCB-00044016 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 15 A Whether or not I'd analyzed any broke which was 16 considered scraps and cuttings from the paper, yes. 17 Q Do you recall doing any analysis at all of water 18 samples from companies that may be involved in the 19 recycling process? 20 A Well, hm, let me think. When -- the trick was you 21 threw in recycling, and I'm not sure. I couldn't 22 answer that question yes or no right now. 23 Q Fair enough, Doctor. Let me - 24 A I don't -- I couldn't answer it yes or no. I - 25 that's good enough. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 144 1 Q I've handed you, Dr. Tucker, what's been marked as 2 895-EE, which is a two-page document bearing 3 JDGFOX174 through 175. 4 A I have the document. 5 MR. LYONS: 895-EE? 6 THE WITNESS: 895-EE. 7 (Discussion off the record.) 8 BY MS. CONLIN: 9 Q Let me start over again. 10 We put in front of you, Doctor, an 11 exhibit which has been marked 895-EE, which bears 12 Bates Nos. NCR-FOX-563950 through 51. Do you have 13 that in front of you? 14 A No. I -- it's probably the same. It may or may not 15 be. I have NCRINS0000081. 16 Q And if you look a little further down on the 17 document - Page 130 WATER PCB-00044017 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 18 A Okay. I see it. I had my finger on it. I 19 apologize. 20 Q All right. We're all on the same page then? 21 A Yes. Yes, we are, indeed. 22 Q This is a letter from a Willis Clark to Gordon Taylor 23 at National Cash Register dated January 5, 1971. Do 24 you see that? 25 A Yes, I do. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 145 1 Q And it says, "Dear Gordon, I have enclosed a copy of 2 the results of analysis obtained by Dr. E.S. Tucker 3 on the water effluent samples which you submitted to 4 us." Do you see that? 5 A Yes, I do. 6 Q Is E.S. Tucker you? 7 A Yes, it is. 8 Q Okay. And again, would this suggest the type of 9 exchange of information that was going on during the 10 '60s and '70s between Monsanto and National Cash 11 Register? 12 MR. HA: Object to form and foundation. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, it certainly would. 14 BY MS. CONLIN: 15 Q Now, if we take a look at the second page of this 16 document, he's attached a memorandum from you dated 17 December 31, 1970; is that right? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And the subject is "Kimberly Clark, Mead Paper." Do 20 you see that? Page 131 WATER PCB-00044018 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 21 A Kimberly Clark, deinked plant? Is that what -- oh, 22 the subject. Yeah. Okay. I got it. Kimberly 23 Clark, Mead Paper. Comma, indicating two different 24 sources. 25 Q Right. Kimberly Clark, Mead Paper. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 146 1 A Okay. 2 Q And is this the results of water sample analysis that 3 you did in connection with these two plants, Kimberly 4 Clark and Mead Paper - 5 A Yes. 6 Q -- looking at the issue of whether Aroclor 1242 was 7 being found? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Okay. Now, if we take a look at the first two 10 entries, Kimberly Clark No. 1 and Kimberly Clark 11 No. 2. Do you see that? 12 A Yes, I do. 13 Q And it says under Kimberly Clark No. 1, "Deink Plant, 14 washer water, most concentrated," and it's got 21,640 15 parts per billion; is that right? 16 A We're talking about OR Log No. 473? 17 Q Correct. 18 A And how much -- 21,640. Did you say that? 19 Q Correct. 20 A Okay, good. I just didn't hearthe part -21 Q Parts per billion? 22 A Yeah, you were looking the other way. I apologize. 23 Q And so roughly translated, what wouldthat be parts Page 132 WATER PCB-00044019 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 24 per million? 25 A It would be 21.640 parts per million. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 147 1 Q And under Log No. 474, Kimberly Clark No. 2, there's 2 a determination here by you of 3,750 parts per 3 billion? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And what would that equate to as parts per million? 6 A 3.750. 7 Q And are you aware that Kimberly Clark was in the 8 recycling business, that this related to recycling of 9 pul p? 10 A At the time I did these, I certainly wasn't. 11 COURT REPORTER: Wasn't? 12 THE WITNESS: At the time I saw this, I 13 certainly wasn't. 14 BY MS. CONLIN: 15 Q Would you consider those ranges to be relatively 16 high? 17 A Very high. 18 MR. MILLER: Object to form. 19 MR. HA: Object to form. 20 BY MS. CONLIN: 21 Q And does the cover letter to 895-EE suggest that this 22 information was, in fact, imparted to National Cash 23 Register on January 5th of 1971? 24 MR. HA: Object to form and foundation. 25 THE WITNESS: Okay. Let me find EE. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Page 133 WATER PCB-00044020 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 148 1 BY MS. CONLIN: 2 Q It's the cover letter to what you've got in front of 3 you. 4 A Oh, okay. Great. 5 Q So my question was - 6 A There's no question it says that -- this reflects 7 that the information was sent to Dr. Gordon Taylor, 8 and he's with NCR, National Cash Register Company. 9 MS. CONLIN: Thank you, Doctor. I have no 10 further questions. 11 MR. BIRKE: Nothing. Thank you, Doctor. 12 THE WITNESS: You're welcome. 13 (Discussion off the record.) 14 MR. MILLER: I just have several questions. 15 I want to ask these just for clarification. 16 EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. MILLER: 18 Q Dr. Tucker, during the course of the deposition today 19 you mentioned a number of biodegradation studies that 20 you undertook at Monsanto in late 1969; is that 21 correct? 22 A That's correct. 23 Q You mentioned one in particular, a river die-away 24 study? 25 A Yes. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 149 1 Q And you indicated that that was a short-term study; Page 134 WATER PCB-00044021 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 2 is that correct? 3 A Correct. 4 Q There were other biodegradation studies that you 5 undertook as well as the river die-away study; is 6 that correct? 7 A Yes. 8 Q One of them was an activated sludge study? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q Were there others? 11 A There were others that were done, but those were the 12 two primary techniques that we evaluated. There were 13 some done in Europe at our UK facility in terms of 14 acclimated sludges and bacteria. 15 Q The biodegradation studies, such as the activated 16 sludge studies, those take a matter of weeks to 17 months to conclude; is that correct? 18 A They're -- okay. You -- they're run on a daily basis 19 and they're emptied and recharged on a daily basis 20 and they're fed, and the bacteria population is kept 21 very alive and very active. So you run it, you spike 22 it, you sample it. Twenty-four hours later you pull 23 the sample out and you see the difference. Okay? if 24 it's a readily degradable material, you see 25 significant depletion of the parent compound. Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 150 1 And that process continues, and you 2 can establish what the biodegradation rate is during 3 that 24-hour period. With some compounds, where the 4 bugs haven't seen them, you put it in and you don't Page 135 WATER PCB-00044022 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 5 get anything, you put it in and you don't get 6 anything, and then suddenly you get something because 7 of the population acclimates to that as a source. 8 Q But with respect to the biodegradation - 9 A So it's a very heavy test, and it can be a short 10 frame or a longer frame, but you can run it longer 11 without killing it. 12 Q But the biodegradation test that you ran on, for 13 example, 1242 starting in the late 14 November-December 1969 time period, they weren't 15 finished in a matter of days? Those extended for 16 weeks or months, correct? 17 A Yes. 18 MR. MILLER: That's all I have. Thank you. 19 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the record 20 at 2:09 p.m. 21 (Deposition concluded at 2:09 p.m.) 22 (Original exhibits attached to Original. 23 Copies of exhibits are attached.) 24 25 Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 151 1 STATE OF WISCONSIN ) ) SS: 2 MILWAUKEE COUNTY ) 3 4 I, Rosanne E. Pezze, RPR/CSR/CRR and 5 Notary Public in and for the State of Wisconsin, do 6 hereby certify that the deposition of E. SCOTT 7 TUCKER, Ph.D. was recorded by me and reduced to Page 136 WATER PCB-00044023 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 8 writing under my personal direction. 9 I further certify that said deposition 10 was taken at 190 Carondelet Plaza, Clayton, Missouri, 11 on the 19th day of August, 2009, commencing at 9:00 12 a.m. 13 I further certify that I am not a 14 relative or employee or attorney or counsel of any of 15 the parties, or a relative or employee of such 16 attorney or counsel, or financially interested 17 directly or indirectly in this action. 18 In witness whereof, I have hereunto 19 set my hand and affixed my seal of office on this 20 20th day of August, 2009. 21 22 ROSANNE E. PEZZE, RPR/CSR/CRR 23 Notary Public My commission expires January 17, 2010 24 25 Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Video Deposition of E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., 8/19/0 152 1 STATE OF WISCONSIN ) 2 ) SS: 3 COUNTY ) 4 5 6 7 I, E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D., do hereby certify 8 I have read the foregoing transcript of proceedings 9 taken August 19th, 2009, at 190 Carondelet Plaza, 10 Clayton, Missouri, and the same is true and Page 137 WATER PCB-00044024 2009-08-19 Tucker, Scott Depo in Appleton 11 correct except for the list of corrections noted on 12 the annexed page. 13 14 Dated at 15 this day of, 2009. 16 17 18 19 E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D. 20 21 22 23 24 25 Gramann Reporting, Ltd. (414) 272-7878 Page 138 WATER PCB-00044025