Document 2Nzq9BrNdoY9Oa11q51NBKd2b

FILE NAME Owens Illinois OWILL DATE 1981 Feb 11 DOC OWILL082 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION Legal - Deposition of Willis Hazard oo Dr.ib Dr.ib Dr.ib UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF MASSACHUSETTS IN RE MASSACHUSETTS ; ASBESTOS CASES ) CASE NO M.B.L. No. 1 P14 Deposition of WILLIS HAZARD a witness ~- herein called by the Plaintiffs as if upon Examination under the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure taken before me the undersigned Dianne Bochi a Notary Public in and for the State of Ohio at the Sheraton Westgage Hotel 3536 Secor Road Toledo Ohio on Tuesday February 11 1981 at 10:10 o'clock a.m. I Gaines Reporting Service 317 SUPERIDA ST TOLEDO OHIO 43604 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF MAINE LAWRENCE KIMBALL Plaintiff VS. MANVILLE CORPORATION Defendants ) , Applicable to ) Maine Cases all ) No. 80-0180 P ) ) Deposition of WILLIS HAZARD a witness here- in called by the Plaintiffs as if upon Examina- tion under the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure taken before me the undersigned Dianne Bochi a Notary Public in and for the State of Ohio at the Sheraton Westgate Hotel 3536 Secor Road Toledo Ohio on Tusday February 11 1981 at ten o'clock a.m. Gaines Reporting Service 317 SUPERIOR ST TOLEDO OHIO 43604 14101 342.4251 COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA 1ST JUDICIAL DISTRICT COURT OF COMMON PLEAS COUNTY OF PHILADELPHIA FRANCIS HOGERTY Plaintiff VS. MANVILLE et al CORPORATION Defendants ) ) } CASE NO 43221 CASE NO 1 ) ASBESTOS CASE Deposition of WILLIS HAZARD a witness herein called by the Plaintiffs as if upon Examination under the Pennsylvania Rules of Civil Procedure taken before me the undersigned Dianne Bochi a Notary Public in and for the State of Ohio at the Sheraton Westgate Hotel 3536 Secor Road Toledo Ohio on Tuesday February 11 1981 at ten o'clock a.m. Gaines Reporting Service 917 MIDCRIOR MIDCRIOR ST TOLEDO OHIO 43604 jb UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF MARYLAND In re Key Sparrows Asbestos Highway and Point Shipyards Cases THOMAS L. BAUMANN et al Plaintiffs vs. MANVILLE CORP et al Defendants 79-2204 FREDERICK O. LOHRMANN et al Plaintiffs VS. MANVILLE CORP et al Defendants 79-2203 JOHN J. KENNY et al Plaintiffs vs. MANVILLE CORP et al Defendants 79-2205 Gaines Reporting Service 317 SUPERIOR ST TOLEDO OHIO 43604 418 243-4251 HOWARD FRALEY et al Plaintiffs VS. MANVILLE CORP et al Defendants 80-2607 LEO GAWOR et al Plaintiffs vs. MANVILLE CORP et al Defendants 80-2608 EPHRAIM HARVARD et al Plaintiffs | vs. MANVILLE CORP et al Defendants 80-2609 ALVIN PURCELL et al Plaintiffs VS. MANVILLE CORP et al Defendants ae ne HM 80-2610 EUGENIA BUSKIRK etc. Plaintiff vs. MANVILLE CORP et al Defendants 80-2511 MARIE NAGY etc. | Plaintiff VS. MANVILLE CORP , et al Defendants 80-2612 MARY PULLER etc. vs. Plaintiff | MANVILLE CORP , et al Defendants 80-2613 - VIRGINIA TOBOLL | etc. Plaintiff vs. MANVILLE CORP et al Defendants 80-2614 RAYMOND DAVIS et al Plaintiffs vs. MANVILLE CORP et al Defendants 80-2615 CLARENCE BROOKS et al Plaintiffs VS. MANVILLE CORP et al Defendants 80-2616 JAMES JONEeSt al Plaintiffs VS. MANVILLE CORP et al Defendants 80-2606 Deposition of WILLIS HAZARD a witness herein called by the Plaintiffs as if upon Examination under the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure taken before me the undersigned Dianne Bochi a Notary Public in and for the State of Ohio at the Sheraton Westgate Hotel 3536 Secor Road Toledo Ohio on Tuesday February 11 1980 at ten o'clock a.m. APPEARANCES On behalf of the Plaintiffs KREINDLER & KREINDLER Stanley J. Levy Ivan B. Rubin On behalf of Defendant Illinois Inc MCCARTER & ENGLISH Andrew Berry On behalf of Corporation Defendant Corning Fiberglas KRUSEN John P. EVANS & Kelley BYRNE Joseph A. Stancoti House Counsel PARKER COULTER DALEY & WHITE Arthur F. Licata On behalf of Manville Corporation SEMMES BOWEN & Bruce R. Parker SEMMES STITES MCELWAIN & Thomas C. Hundley FOWLER On behalf of Defendant Pittsburgh Corning Corpora- tion HERMANN CAHN & SCHNEIDER Philip J. Hermann On behalf of Defendat UNARCO Industries DETWEILER HUGHES & KOKONOS Michael Cannon esto On behalf of Defendants Keene Corporation Armstrong Cork Company Cumming Insulation Forty APPEARANCES Cont'd Insulations Westinghouse J. P. Stevens EaglePichel not included in Philadelphia case Jan A. Saurman On behalf Rubberoid of Defendants GAF .: Company Inc Corporation and BAKER & HASTETTLER Kris Kostolansky On behalf of Defendant Manhattan HESSER ARMSTRONG TOOMEY & DISANTIS William E. Blackie III On behalf of Fibreboard Maryland case not included in CRONQUIST SMITH MARSHALL & KAGELS Timothy E. McMonagle On behalf of Celotex Maryland case only Corporation included in WRIGHT & PARKS H. Emslie Parks On behalf of Philadelphia Defendant Pacor case only Inc. included in RAWLE Kevin & HENDERSON F. Berry On behalf of Party Defendant U. S. Government included in Maine and Massachusetts cases only Marianne B. Bowler Assistant U. S. Attorney On behalf of the witness Willis Hazard SECOR IDE & CALLAHAN John J. Callahan ATTORNEY ' Stanley J. Levy Andrew Berry John P. Kelley EXAMINATION 14 97 129 FURTHER EXAMINATION EXAMINATION 133 EXHIBITS 1-19 20 21 22 23 24 PAGE -12 72 92 94 134 Whereupon Hazard Exhibits 1 through 19 were marked for identification MR LEVY Just some background stipula- and then we can put on the record the tions The depositions have been noticed by our firm in all cases pending in which we represent the Plaintiffs in Maryland Maine Massachusetts and Philadelphia As you know there were protective orders filed by Mr. Callahan on behalf of both Mr. Hazard and Mr. Ames Our understand- ing based on conversation with the judge's law clerk was that the motion with regard to Mr. Hazard was granted and the provisions of the protective order obviously would therefore apply Our further understanding is that the motion with regard to Mr. Ames was denied in its entirety with a request from the judge that he hoped that the parties would afford Mr. Ames the same type of courtesy and consideration as was applied to Mr. Hazard by way of the protective order Prior to the commencement of the a oe deposition we have had some discussion between myself and counsel for Illinois to a lesser extent counsel for Corning in the hope of expediting the deposition by resolving or facilitating the marking and introduction of exhibits I have asked the Reporter and the Reporter has premarked some 19 exhibits which I intend to use during the course of Mr. Hazard's deposition and these have been marked sequentially My understanding is that counsel for Illinois intends to offer some additional documents and in order to facilitate the use of those because the ones I had marked are in chronological order we have agreed that the Illinois documents would be marked with the same chronological sequence but where there is a gap say if my last document was January 1st of 1944 and the next one is January 1st of 1945 and Illinois intendsintends to produce documents in that time frame that the documents will be marked with the same number as the January 1944 document and then lettered so that it will be possible for anybody to keep the documents in sequence and yet at the same time immediately be able to determine whether they were introduced by plaintiff or by somebody else such as Owens- Illinois I believe that they will also be premarked to facilitate and speed up the deposition Also based on the discussion it's my_ understanding that the stipulations will apply to these depositions in all the jurisdictions First is that all objections as to form will be preserved The second is that if there are objections as to form by anybody they will be applicable to all other parties attending Our understanding further is that the deposition will be signed by the witness and that the signature will be in quadruplicate so there will be an original signature for each of the four jurisdictions Further it is our intention to file the depositions once they have been signed or if they're not signed after the time limit on specified by the Federal Rules Our under- standing is that the witness may sign before | any notary public Further it is agreed that the exhibits that have been marked will be turned over to | | the Court Reporter and that a complete set of exhibits will be attached to and made a part of the depositions Furthermore everybodyI believe under- stands that the question of the admissibility of the documents is something that will be reserved until the time of trial unless every- body decides that they want to agree now to the admissibility but absent such an agree- ment that's reserved Now does that essentially state the understanding of everyone Have I missed anything or misstated anything MR KELLEY Could you identify the documents before this deposition starts MR LEVY You want to go through it Jack MR KELLEY I believe you said you intend to use 19 documents MR LEVY Yes MR KELLEY If you could just read off the titles of those documents with their number I would appreciate it so we could get those documents from our file MR LEVY Hazard Exhibit 1 is a document dated February 12 1943 addressed to Dr. L. U. Gardner on the letterhead of Illinois Glass Company and signed by + 1 U. E. Bowes Director of Research It consists consists of two pages Hazard Exhibit 2 is a letter dated February 23 1943 addressed to Mr. U. E. Bowes Bowes Director of Research Illinois Glass Company page document with a signature block of Leroy U. Exhibit No. Gardner M.D. Director 3 is a page document addressed to Mr. U. E. Bowes Director of Research Illinois Glass Company dated March 12 1943 and a signature block of Leroy U. Gardner M.D. Director Exhibit No. 4 is a letter dated May 31 1944 addressed to Mr. U. E. Bowes Director of Research Illinois Glass Company Re Hydrous Calcium Silicate Animal Experi- ments with a signature block of Leroy U. Gardner M.D. Director Hazard Exhibit No. 5 is a letter dated November 21 1944 addressed to Dr. Leroy U. Gardner signed U. E. Bowes Director of Research Hazard Exhibit No. 6 is a document dated October 30 1947 entitled Illinois Glass Company Toledo Ohio Interim Report on Animal Inhalation Experiments with Kaylo It's a multi document Hazard Exhibit No. 7 is a letter on the Illinois Glass Company letterhead dated September 21 1948 addressed to Dr. A. J. Vorwald Saranac Laboratory signed by W. G. Hazard Industrial Relations Division Hazard Exhibit No. 8 is a document entitled Interim Report Regarding the Biologi-Biologi- cal Activity of Kaylo Dust to the IllinoisIllinois Glass Company Toledo Ohio by The Saranac 10 Laboratory dated October 30 1948 Hazard Exhibit No. 9 is a letter dated November 16 1948 to Mr. U. E. Bowes Owens- Illinois Glass Company on the signature block of Arthur J. Vorwald M.D. Director consisting consisting of three pages Hazard Exhibit No. 10 is a multi document entitled Interim Report Regarding the Biological Activity of Kaylo Dust to the Illinois Glass Company by The Saranac Laboratory dated April 30 1949 Hazard Exhibit 11 is entitled Interim Report Regarding the Biological Activity of. Kaylo Dust and this one is dated January 1 1950 Apparently I marked the same document twice as Exhibits 12 and 13 dated June 1st 1950 addressed to W. G. Hazard Industrial Relations Division and a signature block of Arthur J. Vorwald M.D. Director Exhibit 14 is a letter dated December 12 1950 to Dr. Arthur J. Vorwald from Mr. W. G. Hazard the Industrial Relations Division one page Hazard Exhibit 15 is a document entitled Final Report Investigation Concerning the Capacity of Inhaled Kaylo Dust to Injure the Lung to the Illinois Glass Company by The Saranac Laboratory dated January 30 1952 Hazard Exhibit No. 16 is a letter dated February 7 1952 addressed to Mr. W. G. Hazard on a signature block of Arthur J. Vorwald M.D. Director Hazard Exhibit 17 is an intercompany correspondence on the letterhead of OwensIllinois Glass Company dated November 21 1952 Attention of Mr. P. A. Gillis from W. G. Hazard Hazard Exhibit No. 18 is another intra- company correspondence on the Illinois letterhead dated October 5 1955 Attention Mr. M. M. Olander and appears to be from | Mr. Hazard And Exhibit 19 is a letter dated September September 8 1941 addressed to Mr. W. G. Hazard OwensIllinois Glass Company on a signature block Corning Fiberglas Corporation Legal and 12 Patent Department On the lefthand side there is a name C. G. Staelin One other document which I am going to ask the reporter to mark will be a Reprint No. 1665 Public Health Service monograph entitled Effects of the Inhalation of Asbestos Dust on the Lungs of Asbestos Workers Whereupon Hazard Exhibit 20 was marked for identification Are there any other preliminaries that we should take up before Mr. Hazard is sworn MR PARKS For the purposes of the record my name is H. Emslie Parks I want to make it clear I am here today repre- senting Celotex Corporation and will be the only attorney appearing Corporation but I want for the the Celotex record to also reflect that I am not entering my appearance- Maryland in any case other than the cases MR KEVIN BERRY I am entering my for Pacor Inc. in the Philadelphia appearance cases only MR KELLEY That is true also for opvetc 13 John P. Kelley of Philadelphia Corning Fiberglas Corporation MR CALLAHAN : Have counsel agreed as to the batting order MR LEVY The understanding Mr Callahan we are going to start on your left and just go around the table unless anybody feels differently MR KELLEY For the record I am also advised I am representing Corning |; for the other jurisdictions in this deposition MR CALLAHAN : May I present Mr. William Hazard WILLIS HAZARD was by me first duly sworn as hereinafter certified deposed and said as follows " MR CALLAHAN May we agree Ms. Bowler and gentlemen that the time is 10:30 and that the first hour of the deposition would be recessed at approximately 11:20 for a break 14 TION BY MR LEVY Q Mr. Hazard my name is Stanley Levy I repre- sent a number of Plaintiffs in asbestos litigation in various jurisdictions in the northeast I will be at least initially questioning you during the deposition If during the course of the deposition in my questioning at any time you feel that you would like to take a break if you would let me know there would be no problem sir Also if at any time you have trouble understanding any of my questions if you would just indicate that and I will try to correct the question to change it make sure that there is no problem of understanding between the- two of us all right sir A. Thank you May I just make a minor correc- tion My name is Willis i rather than e William Mr. Hazard would you state for us your full Q name address and your date of birth A. My name is Willis G. Hazard 3609 Mapleway Drive Toledo Ohio 43614 My date of birth is April 27 1907 E E  15 oN, Could you trace for me sir your educational background A I went to college at Harvard and I attended the Graduate School at Harvard where I studied physics and received an A.M. And when was that sir When did you graduate from Harvard| A. 1929 And after graduation and receiving your A.M. degree did you immediately begin working | A. Yes Q Could you trace for me your employment history up until the time that you became associated with Owens- Illinois A. In the 1930's I was appointed an instructor in the Harvard School of Public Health The purpose of my being there was to work on a machine or device an instrument for recording the amount of dust in the air of industrial plants This used certain principles of physics and it was because I had studied physics that I got this | During job that I was there time did you from also 1930 to 1934 do any teaching A I did teaching in the last year and a half in C el 16 industrial hygiene Q. Did the machine that you were working with have some name A. We called it a dust recorder It was the subject of two patents and it was written up in the Journal of the Franklin Institute of Philadelphia which is a technical journal During the time you were at Harvard did you take any courses or do any studying in the area of industrial health A. No sir I beg your pardon you mean when I was an undergraduate or a graduate Q During the period of 1930 to 1934 while you were an instructor A I see I had the wrong period I sat in on some courseast the School of Public Health mostly in industrial hygiene a Q And after you left Harvard in 1934 what did you do A. I came to work for Illinois Glass Company Company in Toledo Ohio Q And for how long did you continue to work for Illinois {. f) | LE C ~ A. Until 1974 Q And was that forty years uninterrupted by leaves of absence or other jobs A No. From 1942 to '46 I was in the Public Health Service of the United States during the war years which was a militarized service They had Department of Industrial Hygiene because of the many war plants that were operating then and I was assigned to the State of New Jersey where there was much wartime manufacturing activity Q. During the time you were with the Public Health Service did you specialize in any particular type of a job or any particular type of plants A. It was mostly in plants where there was some exposure to dust but the dusts gasses fumes vapors were all involved Did you have any responsibility for any of the asbestos manufacturing plants in New Jersey A. No direct responsibility and I can't recall if I wide Q visited any of them or not because I was in variety of manufacturing operations When you joined OwensIllinois in 1934 a what was your job title and what were your responsibilities LP (ob 18 1818 A I was located in the Personnel Division of the corporation an I wd as simply an industrial hygienist Q How many industrial hygienists were there at that time A. I was the only one Q And to whom did you report A Well I've got to think back When I first came to Toledo in 1934 the Legal Department of the corporation had what they called a silicosis committee on which was a lawyer a director of the Workmen's Compensation Insurance Department and a person asso- ciated with the Real Estate Department Well there was sort of a screwy setup and it didn't last very long a matter of a few months and then I reported to | the Personnel Director of the corporation who was Mr. M. M. Olander _ a And when you joined the company in 1934 what 19 duties did you have What was the purpose of your job duties the A. My first were to visit three sand ST that the corporation had which supplied the plants T dusty * making operation with sand to see how they were and then after those trips were made and recom- mendations for improvements were made I visited what decre 19 they call the batch plants of the Glass Container Manufacturing Division to see how dusty the batch . houses were ' Q How long did you continue to serve as an industrial hygienist in the Personnel Division A. Directly in the Personnel Division it was 1934 to 1943 '42 Q Until you left to go to the Public Health Service A. _ Q And then 1946 to the time I retired During the perioudp until 1942 did you I I I I continue to report to Mr. Olander or was there some 4 change in reporting structure A. No I continued to report to him a did you During this same period from 1934 to 1942 [| become involved in any way with the development of Kaylo by Illinois A The initial work on Kaylo was done while I from Toledo in the Public Health Service but was away I knew that the product was being developed even though I wasn't actively engaged in it or even in observing it But when I got out of the Public Health Service then I undertook to learn what Kaylo was all about a wea CL 20 Q But just so we have some time frames up until the time that you left to go to the Public Health Service Service you did not participate in any way in the development or in any aspect of the development of Kaylo A No I don't recall that I did in any way Q Did you know that work was going on to develop a calcium silicate product containing asbestos during that period of time A I knew that after 1942. I didn't know it in the period you mentioned '34 to '42 a So you learned about it some time while you ( were serving in the Public Health Service | A. Yes sir Q Up until the time that you returned to Owens- Illinois in 1946 after your service in the Public Health Service did you have any responsibility or did you do anything at all in connection with asbestos surveying asbestos products or plants that manufactured | or used asbestos A. You said '42 to '46 Q Up until the time you went back to Owens- | Illinois in 1946 A. I don't recall that I had any direct connection (> \_4 ( 21 . | So with any plant producing asbestos products during that period Q Did you prior to returning to Illinois in 1946 become familiar in any way with the health problems associated with the use of asbestos and asbestos products A. Iknew the health problems connected with asbestos because of my general background in industrial hygiene and availability of reference work and things | of that sort | Q And would you tell us Mr. Hazard what your | understanding was if you can recall back to that time as to what the health hazards associated with asbestos products were A. It was thought that breathing asbestos dust | over a period of many years caused a change in the tissue of the lung where oxygen is exchanged with the i blood It caused sort of a thickening of the tissue which is demonstrable on chest rays It led conse- quently to an increasing shortness of breath There was no pain There was no infection There was no demonstrable changes except for shortness of breath often mild sometimes advanced For example when a G G C 22 person ran upstairs and on the ray there was a change change Q Had you reviewed any of the medical literature that had been published in respective medical and industrial health articles and journals during the period prior to 1946 dealing with asbestos and health A Yes I had Q And did you feel that as part of your duties that you had a responsibility to keep abreast of what was going on in the health aspects of industrial hygiene hygiene A. Yes I felt that I should keep abreast of the general field of industrial hygiene which would include asbestos Q And you were attempting to do that A. Yes Asbestos however was quite different from a silicate silicosis The danger with silicosis is that a person gets pulmonary tuberculosis progresses progresses fast and is very fast As with asbestos asbestos Ste tres there is no likelihood of getting an infection of any- ra | ATs TA. thing or anything like TB Q Before you left Illinois in 1942 to go to the Public Health Service did you have any contact Foundation or any dealings with the Trudeau at Saranac Lake Tat pt. Pavers Va \_ S C, 23 Se. A As they called seems to me I recall it I did because they had what Saranac Symposium in the late 30's It | it was in the two or three successive years where persons from all over the country who were involved involved in this field of dust gathered to be brought up to date and to pool their experiences So I did know of the symposium or the two or three that were conducted matrecs before 1942 Q Again prior to 1942 using that as a cutoff date were a you aware of any studies that were being conducted by Saranac for Illinois A I don't believe so prior to 1942 | Q Let me digress for a minute Mr. Hazard DO you have any personal files that you brought with you in response to the subpoena that was served on you A. Today a Yes A No sir Do you have any personal files dealing with the period of time that you were with Illinois or dealing with Kaylo and with the asbestos and health problems that are your own MR CALLAHAN In response to the 24 subpoena are you asking MR LEVY Yes MR CALLAHAN Yes we have some papers MR LEVY And they are here MR CALLAHAN MR LEVY Yes Maybe during the break I will take a look at them Mr. Callahan then would have everything that have been able to find in response to the subpoena you that was served A Yes that's right a Prior to the deposition today have you given testimony in any other asbestos cases by way of deposition or by way of appearance at a trial A. a No sir I have not In preparation for the deposition today have you met with anybody other than Mr. Callahan A Yes Q Could you tell us sir who you met with A. You are speaking of preparation for this depo- i sition today Q I'am am going to break it down I am going to yar . ask you to go beyond that later But just in terms of preparing for today's deposition have you met with - anybody else A. This gentleman two down from you I have met with MR ANDREW BERRY : Andrew Berry Q Anyone else besides Mr. Berry and Mr. Callahan A. I don't know just how to answer that because on certain occasions another attorney would be present | None of them was directly involved in my appearance here but they were in the room on occasion and I was introducetd o them They did not participate in discussing with you what was likely to occur today A. I don't think they did This thing has been going on you know for two years a Not with me Have you reviewed any documents or files in preparing for the deposition today A. Yes I have reviewed files and documents Q Could you take a look at these Mr. Hazard and would you tell me if these are among the documents that you have reviewed These are the exhibits which have been marked A. Exhibit No. 1 I reviewed before today in preparation for this Exhibit No. 2 I have reviewed and No. 3. These four exhibits I did not receive a copy of but I am reasonably sure that Mr. Bowes showed me his file but I can't remember the date or the time or anything else but I am pretty sure I saw them Q Mr. Bowes was the Director of Research for Illinois A. Yes sir In the same way I am sure I reviewed No. 5. No. 6 is an Interim Report of Saranac Laboratory their animal experiment on Kaylo and I'm sure that I saw that too Q Mr. Hazard there are really two questions I am going to ask you The first is whether you have seen them in preparation for the deposition today and the second will really relate to whether they were company documents and whether you saw coursoef your working But in going them in through the them now would you just indicate whether you saw them within the last few days in preparation for the deposition A. I don't believe I saw them in the last few days I don't think I had my file in those last few days xm oat 27 | Q Have you seen them say in the last four or five or six months A. Oh I believe so Q Let me ask the question this way In going through the exhibits would you just tell us if you've seen these documents say within the last three or four months A I believe so a Why don't you finish taking a look at them just to make sure because I haven't looked through all | of them yet A. Exhibit 7 you know this is hard because I'm sure I have seen all of these but some of this daily correspondence stuff I don't know that I saw them three or four months ago I may have seen them 12 or 18 months ago but not three or four Let's take your time frame within the last year 18 months During the last year or two years you have been asked at various times to review docu- ments and to discuss with people from Corning and Illinois your activities while you were work- ing for Illinois haven't you A Yes I can say that's true 28 Q And at various times you have been shown docu- ments which you had an opportunity to review and to ' look through A. Yes Q In the context of these various sessions where you've had the opportunity to review the documents what I would like you to do is just to let me know whether these documents are among the ones that you have had an opportunity to look through A. Well there is a series of interim reports here and I am sure that I looked at those a You are referring to the interim reports from Saranac A. Yes I'm sure I looked at those and I think I must have looked at most all the correspondence too some time in the last year a Well would you take a minute because I would rather you be sure Look through all of them just so you are familiar with all of them then and maybe I can ask you a general question and try to do it quickly A - SSe venteen and 19 I don't know whether I reviewed those in the last year or not Q Leaving aside Exhibits 17 and 19 for a minute all the others you've had an opportunity to review within the last 18 months or so A. Yes that's right now And based on looking through them and the opportunity that you've had in the past to review them were they all documents which you saw during the time that you were working for Illinois A. Yes 0 And were they documents that were either received by Illinois or sent by Illinois in the regular course of its business A. Yes I would say so 0 And they were ones that under the normal course of procedures for Illinois would have been kept and maintained by the company in the regular course of its business A. Yes which NOW if we take 17 and 19 _ you say you don't recall having seen in the last haven't seen you 18 months If you look at those two are they also documents that were received or kept or transmitted by Illinois during the time that you were employed by the company 30 A . Yeah Q They also would have been documents that were |; prepared maintained and kept in the regular course of business by Illinois A Yes Rncsenesen a I omitted to ask you Mr. Hazard have you ever written or published any materials dealing with industrial relations or health A. Yes a Have any of them dealt with Kaylo or the health I aspects of asbestos A. I don't think any of them dealt with the health aspects of asbestos but some might have dealt with Kaylo 8 . Mr. Hazard we've used the expression Kaylo Could you tell us what Kaylo is A. Chemically Kaylo was a hydrous calcium silicate It was an artificial compound that is it was not mined It was made in two of our plants one in Berlin Berlin New Jersey and one in Sayreville New Jersey | It was used first as a pipe covering insulating material thermal insulation Later it was used as a ceiling tile such as you would put on the flat ceiling for f LC = decorative purposes or for insulation too Q And was it made in both a molded pipe covering - form and as a block A. Yes a And it contained asbestos | A. Yes Fifteen percent roughly Q And what was the purpose of the asbestos in the Kaylo do you know sir A. It gave it strength It kept it from crumbling or cracking or cracking It was a reinforcing material It Q When you returned to Illinois in 1946 had Kaylo already been developed A. Yes it had Had it already been marketed by that time A. That I don't know Q In the corporate structure that existed in 1946 was there a department or division that was responsible for the sale or development and handling of the Kaylo product A. Yes there was a division known as the Structural Products Division I think it was which handled Kaylo for a while and the company also made glass block for building construction use in Muncie DA C+ C 32 aa Indiana and that was in this Structural Products Division as I remember But the Kaylo was manufactured only in Sayreville Sayreville | and Berlin A. Yes a At that time was the product developed with the understanding that it was to be used or _ would be used in the insulation work = A. That was I think the original purpose of it thermal insulation a And was it recognized that it would be used aboard ships A. Yes Did you personally participate in any testing in connection with the development of Kaylo A. Such as product testing Q Such as if there were any compression tests or bending tests or thermal tests or tests to determine the dust release characteristics of the product any tests along those lines during the development phase of Kaylo A I don't remember participating in any such tests but did make tests in each plant to see how he L Spe : (4 Ch 33 much dust there was in the air which had nothing to do with the product really Q At both Sayreville and Berlin A Yes sir When was the first time that you did what should we call these dust collection tests or dust monitoring tests A. Yes It would be during 1946 because I wasn with the company until 1946 Q It would have been relatively soon after you returned to the company A. Yes I don't know how soon but it certainly wouldn't be before that Q When you returned in 1946 what title did you have ; A. I was a member of the Personnel Division I didn't have a title Well my field was industrial hygiene but it wasn't a title as such a Were your duties and responsibilities the same as you had before you left or were they different in any way A. They were essentially the same They were expanded and much the same because the company had = S ( expanded Q Were there any other industrial hygienists in 11946 other than yourself A. With Illinois Q Yes A. No. Q When you returned in 1946 were you still reporting to Mr. Olander or had there been a change in reporting structure A. No I think I was still reporting to Mr. Olander a And you were still within the Personnel Depart- . ment A. Yes sir | ' 0 Could you just briefly trace for me your job progression in terms of title changes or responsibility changes from 1946 until you retired in 1974 A. There was very little change in title There was expansing of duties all within the field of industrial hygiene We got interested in other aspects of the working environment such as the heat and noise all forms of air pollutants And the Personnel Division at one point was named the Industrial Relations Divi- at sion and the last two years I think it was I was a e f \ Cc 35 transferred from the Industrial Relations Division or the Personnel Division whichever it was known as to the Illinois Technical Center on Westwood Avenue | Q In Toledo A. In Toledo was concerned with where they had the outdoor pollution department that water pollution | and air pollution The thing was I guess that it activities would be logical to combine the pollution for plant and plant as regards air pollution As I have said several times my big problem was originally dust inside the plant and then gasses fumes and vapors that might be of health significance I think they thought that this work should be combined with outdoor air pollution and that was the reason they moved me to the Tech Center Q During the time from 1946 until you retired did you do any work with regard to changing the composi tion of Kaylo modifying the product or anything with regard to elimination of asbestos from Kaylo A I did no work like that myself Q You would not have been involved in the product product change or product improvement end of the work A. Not directly 0 V1 CA 36 , Q . Did you have any input make any recommenda- tions or suggestions for changes in the product A Well there was talk of replacing asbestos with glass fiber fiberglas but that was out of my field a A know When did that kind of talk develop I suppose in the early 50's _ I really don't I wasn't directly involved I knew that there was an effort made to make the substitution and of course I was in favor of that because fiberglas is harmless and asbestos is not harmless Q As long as Illinois continued to manu- facture Kaylo though it continued to use asbestos is that correct A. I believe that's correct ene | MR LEVY I'm going to go into _ a different area Do you want to take a break because I would rather not start and then just stop Whereupon a recess was held from 11:15 to 11:30 etme | Mr. Hazard did there come a time after you e returned to Illinois in 1946 when you learned oe e -- -- C. 37 that Illinois had entered into an agreement with The Saranac Laboratory to examine the health risks associated with Kaylo A Yes Q Could you tell us sir how you came to learn of the agreement with Saranac A. I think it was by reading correspondence a copy of which is right here between the director of The Saranac Laboratory and Mr. Bowes who was our Director of Research in Illinois Q Could you tell me sir by reference to the exhibits which one you are referring to when you pointed to the group of exhibits A. Exhibits No. 1 and 2 Q And that's the letter from Mr. Bowes to Dr. Gardner at Saranac dated February 12 1943 setting up the type of experiments and program and Dr. Gardner's response dated February 23 1943 A Yes Q Was there a file that you were able to review when you returned in 1946 that contained the informa- tion correspondence dealing with the Saranac study A don't know 38 Q Did you have discussions with Mr. Bowes about the work that was being done at Saranac A. Yes Q And could you tell us sir what you were told about the Saranac study by Mr. Bowes when you returned A. I don't remember what I was told I did read the file Q Was Exhibit 3 the letter of March 12th also in the file A What did you ask me Q When you went through the file do you remember reviewing this letter of March 12 1943 from Dr. Gardner to Mr. Bowes A. I don't remember a You just don't remember one way or the other|; A. No. Did you get yourself a copy of Mr. Bowes file or did you just refer to his whenever you had a ques- A I referred to his Q After you returned in 1946 did you have some duties or responsibilities with regard to the Saranac oe ee ce study the study of Kaylo me, es Poe -- d 39 d A. After I returned I became familiar with it but the study had already been established 0 . And did you receive copies of the various interim reports that have been marked as exhibits and get an opportunity to review them as they came in A. I had an opportunity to review them as they came in I don't know the answer to your first part a But you did review them A Yes And did you also review the letters that were sent by Dr. Vorwald in connection with the study such | as the November 16 1948 letter which was marked as Exhibit 9 A I don't know Q In the November 16 1948 letter Exhibit 9 Mr. Hazard Dr. Vorwald states in the third full para- graph During the 30 to 36 month period however definite indication of tissue reaction appeared in the | lungs of animals inhaling Kaylo dust and therefore I regret to say our tentative conclusion quoted above must be altered In all animals sacrificed after more than 30 months of exposure to Kaylo dust unmistakable evidence of asbestosis has developed showing that Kaylo Kaylo Van = ( 40 1 on inhalation is capable of producing asbestosis and must be regardeads a potentially hazardous material sl Did you learn of that conclusion by Dr. Vorwald some time in or around November 1948 A Yes I did Q And in the same letter Dr. Vorwald makes a suggestion about a safety program Do you know whether anything was done by Illinois at that time with regard to developing a safety program dealing with the sale and marketing of Kaylo A. Where is that suggestion a The last paragraph says As these findings have not yet been released for publication I request that while using them as required in formulating a safety program you regard them as confidential I'm sorry the last paragraph on page 1 A. Yes I see what you mean | a DidIllinois undertake any safety program | . at that time with regard to the users of Kaylo A I don't know men Q Was there any discussion at that time by ops Illinois to eliminate asbestos from Kaylo a: -c A. No I don't think there was I mentioned Lf? Cp NN earlier that I had in mind in our batch house where raw asbestos was handled not in the product a In terms of potential -- MR KELLEY I would object and ask that with the the witness be permitted to continue | answer which he was interrupted in giving A. Well I had in mind the control of asbestos 2a dust in the batch house of our batch house where raw asbestos is weighed and mixed not in the finished \ product Q Following Dr. Vorwald's letter in November of 1948 did Illinois do anything to eliminate i asbestos from Kaylo A. No I don't think so a Following Dr. Vorwald's letter in November of 1948 did Illinois issue any warnings to customers or users of Kaylo A. No. 0 _ Q If you would look at the letter of June 1st 1950 which has been marked as Exhibit 12 and 13. Do you have that sir In June of 1950 or within a few months of C C C 42 ( receipt of Dr. Vorwald's letter to you dated June 1st 1950 do you know whether Illinois conducted any studies or made any effort at that time to remove asbestos from Kaylo A. No I don't know Q You don't know of any A. No. a Did Illinois at that time issue any warnings to customers or to users of Kaylo concerning the dangers of asbestos as contained in the Kaylo product A. No we did not There was no danger to the user Q Did you issue any warning to any of the users A. No there was no reason to . a Well whether you believe there was or there wasn't after you received Dr. Vorwald's report you did not issue any warning did you A No. Q Now if you would refer to the letter of February 7 1952 transmitting the final report and in the letter Dr. Vorwald states in the second para- es ere graph The results of the investigations with animals a Sem rens cde C eee Duet ae , c 43 show that Kaylo dust is capable of producing a peri- bronchiolar fibrosis typical of asbestosis Did you ti: see that sir A Yes And you received this letter didn't you A. Yes a Now at any time in February of 1952 or after you received Dr. Vorwald's letter and the final report did Illinois undertake any program to eliminate asbestos from Kaylo A. I don't know Q You don't know of any A. No. Q Did Illinois at that time in 1952 issue any warnings to customers or users of Kaylo concerning the additives of asbestos Q _ At any time prior to the sale of the Kaylo line to Corning did Illinois ever issue any warnings to users or customers of Kaylo concerning the dangers of asbestos A. No. Did you during the period from 1948 to 1952 44 when you received the letters from Dr. Vorwald and the studies both the interim and the final studies pass those studies along Mr. Bowes A. Would you repeat that please a Yes Did you pass along to Mr. Bowes the results of the studies the interim and the final studies conducted by Saranac as well as Dr. Vorwald's letters to Mr. Bowes A. Q A. - Q I don't know You have no recollection of having done that | No. Do you have a recollection of passing along the actual documents the Vorwald letters and the reports to any of the people at the Berlin Plant or at the Sayreville Plant A. I have no recollection of that | a Did you ever discuss the studies and the letters from Dr. Vorwald with Dr. Shook A I think I did but I'm not sure when Dr. Shook Shok came as our Medical Director I don't have the date right in mind a What is your best recollection say within six monthos r so 45 A. 1947 something like that I think Q You have no recollection of whether the studies were passed along to Dr. Shook to read and review | A. I have no recollectioonf that Q Other than you and Dr. Shook was there any- body else at Illinois who was in the general area of medical and industrial hygiene A. Nobody in industrial hygiene and nobody directly . in industrial medicine except Dr. Shook _ Q By the way this time period in the late 40's 7 early 50's did Illinois have a medical library A. Dr. Shook had some volumes of medical journals if that's what you mean There was no big library Q You continued did you not the practice you described earlier of trying to keep up to date with the medical literature that was developing in the industrial hygiene area A . Yes Q And I assume you did that with particular emphasis on silicosis A. Yes Q And did you also do it with emphasis on asbestos Md 46 A On all possibly toxic materials that people in our plant might use Q So would it be fair to say that during this period from '46 to the 50's as part of your duties and your responsibilities you were attempting to the best of your ability to keep abreast of all of the health and medical literature dealing with asbestos and its relation to health A. And other toxic products too Q But at least for the purposes of this litiga- tion you were doing it with regard to asbestos A. Yes Q And do you know whether Dr. Shook was also trying to keep abreast of the medical developments dealing with asbestos A I don't know knowing Q Would you assume that he was Dr. Shook. A. Yes a Now in 1953 there was an agreement entered into between Illinois and Corning dealing with the distribution of Kaylo Were you familiar with that gener^lly f? = C 47 <= : A. Not very familiar no sir Q Did you know that there was some type of ff: distribution agreement between the two companies deal- ing with Kaylo A. Not at that time Q When did you learn of it A In later years Q By later you are talking about post A. No I mean towards the end of the 1950's Q But at least in the early 1950's '53 14 5 your recollection is that you did not know that Owens- ( Corning was distributing Kaylo for Illinois A At that period you are correct By the way was there some type of working agreement or relationship between you while you were employed by Illinois and personnel at Owens- Corning A. No. We didn't hobnob with those guys at all Did they ever ask you for any help in con- nection with any industrial hygiene problems that they might be experiencing in their facilities A Well in years before this they asked me to visit their plant where they made fiberglas which was L? (4 ch 48 in Newark Ohio on more of a social visit than a working visit but I did visit them and talked to their |. plant people That's the only direct contact I can recall Did you ever do any dust counting dust monitoring for Corning A. No sir Q Did anybody from Corning go along with _ you when you did dust monitoring at Illinois | plants to see how you were doing it to learn the procedures or anything like that A. I don't remember that anybody did Q Do you have any recollection prior to the time of the negotiations leading to the sale of the Kaylo Division to Corning discussing with anyone at Corning the Saranac studoyr any of the conclu- sions that Dr. Vorwald had reached A I don't remember that I did Maybe someone else did Q | Just dealing with you A. No. Q You have no recollection A. N^ ( 4 C 49 49 Q Now you are familiar with the fact that the Kaylo Division was sold to Corning in May of 1958 A. Yes sir a And you knew about that during the time that the sale was being consummated and the transfer occurred A. I don't remember when I knew it 1958 stands out when the final thing was accomplished a Did you at any time tell anybody from Owens- Corning about the Saranac study dealing with Kaylo A I don't remember Q Do you remember if there was someone who you would consider a counterpart at Corning someone that you may have dealt with or discussed industrial hygiene problems at Corning A. At what period During 1958 A. I don't remember that Q Did you maintain a file dealing with the Saranac study the letters from Dr. Vorwald and the reports A. . Q Yes And when the Kaylo Division was sold to Owens- Corning what happened to your file Ye OO 50 A The last day that they were part of Owens- Illinois we got some corrugated paper cartons unloaded tT our file cabinet called the janitor at the end of the afternoon and had them carried over to Corning Is this as a result of some instruction or memorandum or directive generally to transfer documents dealing with Kaylo to Corning A. I don't remember whether it was or not I know we did that a You did do it . A. Yes Q And in addition to your files were other files files also turned over to Corning at that time MR KELLEY Object A. Yes Qa - What other files were turned | over to Owens- Corning that you know of A I don't know what they were I don't know what files went over I know ours did a And that would include the documents that have been marked today A. I don't know whether all of those documents were in that file or not but we sent over material Ld C 51 relating to the Saranac work Would that have at least included the various - l.reports the interim and final reports and Dr. Vorwald's transmittal letters MR KELLEY Object A. I know the Saranac reports went over I don't know how much of the correspondence was in that file Q And just so I am sure Mr. Hazard you have no recollection of talking to anyone at Corning about the Saranac study or calling specifically to the Corning people the information and the results that you had gotten from Dr. Vorwald A. I have no recollection of talking about it It does come back to me that the reports went over so that there was no further need to discuss it Q Just so I can break down the distinction between the oral and the written you are saying that you are sure that the reports and the material in your file was put into this carton and taken over to Owens- Corning right A. Yes a And as far as verbal communication you have no recollection at this time that you yourself spoke _ 57 52 to anyone at Corning about the Saranac studies at the time of the transfer of the Kaylo Division to {Corning A. I have no recollectioonf that If I could ask you for a moment to look at Exhibits 19 and 20. This is the letter addressed to you from the Legal and Patent Department sending along two publications in September of 1941. You've had an opportunity to look at the letter have you not sir A. Yes a And Exhibit 20 the Public Health Service Report is that the report that was referred to or one of the two reports that's referred to in the letter of September 8 1941 from Corning returning two reports to you Let me rephrase the question The letter Exhibit 19 refers to a report that Mr. Ames asked to return to you entitled the Effects of the Inhalation of Asbestos Dust on the Lungs Asbestos Workers Do you see that sir A. Yes Q And Exhibit 20 is a document entitled Effect of the Inhalation of Asbestos Dust on the Lungs the 53 Asbestos Worker A. Yes Q Is Exhibit 21 one of the two reports that is referred to in Exhibit 19 as being returned to you A. Yes Q Now is this report the Lanza report on the effects of the inhalation of asbestos dust a report that you required yourself because of your interest and desire to keep abreast of what was going on in the industrial health field with regard to asbestos A. mo Yes | Ames Q And did you have any discussions with Mr. | in 1941 if you can recall as to why he was asking you to provide him with copies of Exhibit 20 and the other publication that's referred to in the September | 8th letter A. Why Mr. Staelin was returning this to me Why Mr. Staelin was returning it or why Mr. _ Ames might have asked you to give him copies of the reports A. No I don't know what prompted his request Q Did you ever have any discussions with either Mr. Staelin or Mr. Ames or anyone else at Corning 54 in 1941 as to their interest in asbestos and health A. Mr. Staelin and Ames a Or anyone else at Corning A I don't remember anyone in Corning I think it's likely probably that I talked to Mr. Ames Q Is he someone that at various times in the 40's 40's and 50's you would have dealt with at Corning A. Q A. Ames | Yes I don't think so occasion to it I don't think there was Did you at any time in the early 1940's become aware of a campaign by Corning to invade the contracting market with their fiberglas products MR KELLEY Objection A You are asking me Q Yes A. . No. At any point Mr. Hazard in the late 1940's or 1950's did you become involved in any project to prepare a brochure dealing with the health aspects of _ Kaylo A Not directly 55 Q By that you became involved in some way indirectly in such a project A. I had knowledge that this was under discussion Would you tell us sir your understanding of what the nature of this project was how it developed and what it was supposed to do A think think it was for general distribution to anybody who was interested Q That included customers contractors ship- yards anyone who would use Kaylo A. I think so And what led to this project to develop a brochure dealing with the health aspects of Kaylo A. Well the Saranac experiments were a pretty massive undertaking and I think the persons in the Kaylo work at that time thought that they were worth | | publishing Q. In addition to you who else was involved in _ the Kaylo brochure project A. I don't know Was Dr. Shook A. I don't know I think he might have been asked to review a draft but I don't think he was 56 involved in organizing it Q Would you take 1. The letter is signed by a look at Exhibit 14 Mr. you is that correct Hazard Hazard A. Yes it is a By the way I believe the copy of the letter that you have has some handwritten marks on the right side which are very poor to read A Yes By any chance are you able to read them tell us who wrote them and what they say A. I can't read them except the last two lines Within five years I think it is or within five men Q It's men not years The letter was written by you was it not A. a Yes sir And it indicates a copy to Dr. Shook A. Yes Q - Would that help refresh your recollection as to whether Dr. Shook was also involved in the brochure project A Well as I said I don't think he was directly involved in drawing it up but I'm sure he would have been asked to review it 57 The notes on the side if I can go back to them for a minute were they written by you A I don't know in Q Was a brochure such as is discussed the December 12 1950 letter was it ever prepared A I think a draft of it was prepared but what- ever happened to it I don't know ee Q Was abrochur wie th the health aspects of Kaylo ever circulated or made available to users of Kaylo ~ A . I don't know a You don't know whether it was or it wasn't A I don't know whether it was or wasn't yes Q At this time frame from 1946 to 1950's the sale of the Kaylo Division to Corning you were aware were you not that Kaylo was being sold to shipyards A. . Yes And it was being used in connection with the construction of new ships as well as in the repair of existing ships A Yes Q During the course of this ten year or so 58 period from your return until the time of the sale of the division did you ever visit any shipyards A I don't remember see Q Let me run through a list for you and if you recall any of them A I might say there wasa New York Shipyard in New Jersey and there is a Camden Shipyard and I have been in those as a visitor unrelated to Kaylo and I don't remember what the year was It was like a sight- seeing trip a How about in Maine Massachusetts | A. No. Q Pennsylvania or Maryland A. No. Q. None of those A. No. construction Q Did you ever visit any plants or i sites where Kaylo was being used A. Not that I remember You mean outdoor con- | struction Q Outdoor construction A a LT 2 on a No. Did you ever visit any power plants or industrial | x) e facilities where Kaylo was being used /| Le 59 A. No. Q Do you have any recollection of at any time | participating in any monitoring studies dust collection studies anything of that nature where Kaylo was being used to determine any of the properties of Kaylo was A. I have a recollection of one plant but that their own plant It was not a customer's plant and I don't remember being in any customer's plant Q Just so I can eliminate everything your best recollection then is that at no time did you visit any shipyard any construction site or any plant where Kaylo was being used for the purpose of determining | anything about the dust release characteristics or the | ) | properties of Kaylo | i A. No. you Q But _ do have a recollection of on one occasion visiting one of Illinois own plants where Kaylo was being used A No I misled you I visited it several times not just one time Q And what was the purpose of the visits to -- -- pom Illinois own plants where Kaylo was being used A To see that the work environment was safe from |health standpoint Q Now were you looking at the manufacturing end of Kaylo or how Kaylo was being used as a finished product A. The manufacturing end of Kaylo Q How about the finished aspect of it did you ever as an industrial hygienist do any studies anywhere to determine what would happen when Kaylo was being used as a finished product to see how much dust was released or anything along those lines A. In a customer's operation you mean a You did do it A. No. You mean in a customer's operation Q In operation either yours or a customer's A. Well we studied our operation It was not necessary to go into a customer's operation Q Just so you and I are together I am talking not was about the manufacturing putting the Kaylo up on end but where a worker a pipe or using the finished product for insulation purposes A. No. C Cl. Q At any time did you participate in the prepara- tion of any advertising material or any brochures or | t+. any product specification information that was disseminated to customers of Illinois that were using Kaylo A. No I don't remember doing anything like that a You were never asked to review it or look at it to see if it was okay or passed review from an industrial hygiene point of view A. No. Q Did you ever make any suggestions or recom- mendations to your superiors at Illinois suggest ing that a warning be put on Kaylo a health warning A. No sir [anneal . Q Did you ever make any recommendations or sug- gestions to anyone at Illinois suggesting that Kaylo be taken off the market because of its health aspects A. No. Q Did you ever in any way participate in any discussions at all dealing with the advisability of putting a warning on packages of Kaylo A No. 62 Q Did you at any time visit the Berlin or the Sayreville Plants and see the asbestos bags that were t: purchased by Illinois for use in the manufacture of Kaylo ' A. Yes Did you ever see a warning on any of the bags of asbestos that were shipped to Illinois A. I don't remember that I did Q By the way you said at one point there was approximately 15 percent asbestos in Kaylo What type of asbestos was it A It was chrysotile principally I believe Maybe a little amosite Q And do you know who the main supplier of the chrysotile asbestos was A. No I don't Q Or the amosite A Q No. _ Did you have an industrial hygienist for Owens- Illinois and limiting myself to the period prior to the sale of the Kaylo Division did you have any dis- cussions with any manufacturers of asbestos products concernitnhge health problems or health aspects of 63 asbestos A. No. | And that would include Manville or | UNARCO or any companies like that that dealt with | asbestos products _ A. You mean discussions between me and Johns- Manville and me and UNARCO a Right A. No. Q Did you ever attend any meetings of any trade i associations dealing with such as the Industrial Hygiene asbestos and health problems Foundation | A. The term trade association I think doesn't apply to the -- you mean Industrial Hygiene Foundation t 1 Pittsburgh Q Yes A =5>'6sTs- hat's a technical organization nothing to ) do with trade But to get back to your question did asbestos I have any discussions with them on Q Dealing with asbestos and health A I can't answer that because I attended lots of their annual meetings As that goes at some of those those asbestos and asbestosis was discussed It's just possible possible -- -- 64 that I did a Which associations did you attend A Besides the Industrial Hygiene Foundation Right A. National Safety Council annual meeting the American Industrial Hygiene Association annual meeting some meetings of the American Standards Association and I guess those were the principal ones some local section meetings also with some of those main groups Q And if I understand what you have testified to at different times these associations may have had discussions dealing with asbestos and health but you really have no recollection at the present time one way or the other A. That's correct How about with regartdo the Industrial attending Hygiene Foundation do you recall any meet- ings of the IHF at which asbestos and health were discussed A. I attended lots of annual meetings of IHF I don't recall their papers on asbestos if they had them I just don't recall that detail Were you an individual member of IHF or was [? / Gi 65 bee Illinois a corporate member A. Illinois was a corporate member They 4. don't have individual members Q I assume as a corporate member the company received the IHF digest A. Yes Q Did you receive the IHF digest A Yes a How about Dr. Shook A. I don't know I doubt it | So it would have followed right into you directly A Yes And would you circulate it to anyone A. Yes Yes Who would you circulate copies to A. If it was something that Dr. Shook would be interested in I would circulate it to him They have abstracts on safety topics If there was something that our corporate safety director might be interested in I would circulate it to him Anyone who might be involved in one of the subjects Q You would go through each month's issue as it C C 66 comes in to see if there were abstracts of new publications dealing with the dusts that you were interested in A. Yes That was one of the main contributions that the IHF digest served was it not to provide for an early dissemination of the abstracts of new medical studies A. Medical engineering chemical toxicological and safety to a limited extent o ; : MR LEVY It's 12:25 Do you want to stop or go forward I don't want to push Mr. Hazard MR CALLAHAN How long do you intend to go at this point MR LEVY . My guess is I have somewhere between a half an hour and 45 minutes | the way things have been going MR CALLAHAN I would suggest we recess at this point MR LEVY Could I during the lunch break look at the documents that Mr. Hazard brought en! 67 MR CALLAHAN MR LEVY Yes Shall we plan then about 1:30 MR CALLAHAN That's agreeable Whereupon a recess was held from 12:25 to 1:30 MR LEVY If we're ready to begin During the lunch break I have had an opportunity to review the material that Mr. Hazard produced in response to the subpoena The documents were produced by Mr. Callahan in response to the individual items in the subpoena and what I have told Mr. Callahan is that there are three items that I do intend to mark before the deposition is finished One is the printed copy of the Schepers report second is the communications between Mr. Hazard and Illinois concerning the consulting agreement and the third is the curriculum vitae As far as the other documents that were produced I do not intend to mark them although I have asked Mr. Callahan to make 68 arrangements to have them copied for me but not as a Callahan part also of the deposition produced a box of exhibits note cards Mr which contain notes for speeches that Mr. Hazard has given at various times I have gone through them and I don't intend to mark the box of cards or any individual cards unless something comes up during the course of the testimony this afternoon where I might want to refer to some Mr. Callahan has provided us with a book SN which contains most of the documents which a have been marked as well as others that have been produced by various defendants and not marked My understanding is they were essentially supplied by Illinois to Mr. Hazard and I do not intend to mark the book So if anybody feels differently they can do what they want to but that's the way I would go forward MR KELLEY Just for the record even if the documents aren't marked we would like copies of everything you refer to oe he me 69 MR LEVY You mean all of the cards MR KELLEY MR LEVY No not all the cards - Anything that I am copying you want a copy of MR KELLEY Right . MR LEVY Maybe we should put it negatively Is there anybody who doesn't want a copy of everything that's being copied for me I guess everybody wants a - copy BY MR LEVY a Mr. Hazard going back to the Saranac study of Kaylo that we talked about this morning In con- 7 nection with your activities did you at various times communicate with Dr. Vorwald and other people at Saranac concerning the Kaylo material that was being sent to them in connection with the study A. I don't understand what you mean by in con- nection with the Kaylo material a The Saranac study was a study of Kaylo was it not A Yes C | (? 70 S* > - Q As distinguished from on the one hand raw asbestos and on the other hand calcium silicate A. Yes So it was the finished product so to speak A Yes And at various times did you have some - munications with them in which you either had assured them that they were getting the finished Kaylo product for the studies A I don't know Q Let me show you another letter then that has not yet been marked a document dated March 7 1950 and I would ask the Reporter to mark it please It would be Exhibit 11D That's a letter that you prepared and signed and sent to Mrs. Blinn at The Saranac Laboratory A. Yes Q And if I could call your attention to the | | fourth paragraph does that describe the procedure for selecting the Kaylo dust that was sent to Saranac for the study A. Yes a So essentially the dust came from the Berlin Cy (? 71 Plant and it was dust that had been collected after the slabs of Kaylo had been planed and sawed A. Yes Q In the documents that you produced for us today in response to the subpoena there was a copy of an article by Dr. Schepers Do you see that sir A. Yes Q And could you tell us sir whether you received a copy of Dr. Schepers printed report some time in or around 1955 when it was published A. You mean this report Q Yes A. I received a copy of the original journal that this was published in just routinely because I subscribed to it Q Did you then make copies and distribute it to other people at Illinois A. I don't remember But you did make your own copy A You mean this one here a Yes A. I don't know I don't think Well I just don't know The reason I am hesitating this type of 72 photocopy was not made as I remember it on the machine machine that we had But maybe it was later I don't know Q There are some handwritten notes in the upper righthand corner Were those made by you A. They look as though they were Would you be able to indicate for us the time when you wrote those notes on the copy A. January 3 1980 Q And prior to that you did not write anything on the copy A. No I'don't think I did Somebody else wrote this reference down at the bottom in longhand a Do you know who A. No. MR LEVY Could we mark this copy as the next exhibit please Whereupon Hazard Exhibit 21 was marked t for identification Q Dr. Schepers who is the author of the published | article which we have marked as Exhibit 21 was the head of The Saranac Laboratory A. Yes And he had succeeded Dr. Vorwald a CC) 73 A. Yes I believe so Q And the paper is p a ubli res porh t oe f td he fI indings of The Saranac Laboratory in connection with the Kaylo study A. Yes Q And even though it does not refer Kaylo by name or to Illinois by name it is dealing with the Kaylo study is it not ~ A. Yes it is F a Did you have any discussions with Dr. Schepers 78 yourself before the article was published concerning the work that had been done by Dr. Gardner or by Dr. Vorwald in connection with the Kaylo study A. The only discussion that I remember was that we were encouraging Dr. Schepers to publish this thing There was a great delay into getting it into print Q And this was the result in part of wanting to get it published and Dr. Schepers finishing the job that Dr. Vorwald had started A. In part that way I think eventually with- out our encouragement they would have published it any how but it was a long delay Q Now you had mentioned earlier that you had attended some of the Saranac Symposiums before you went into the Public Health Service in the 40's Did you T- continue to attend the Saranac Symposiums afterwards A. Yes 0 And in particular did you attend the seventh Saranac Symposium in 1952 That's the one at which Dr. Huper spoke in connection with industrial occupational health problems A. Well I am not sure of that particular one I do know that I attended most of them after the war years Q Did you attend as a listener and observer or did you attend as a speaker A Listener and observer Q To your knowledge Mr. Hazard were the minutes of the seventh symposium ever published A. I think they were I think that the minutes of each symposium were published Q Did you receive copies of them A. I think I did And were they kept by you at Illinois A. Yes Q Did you have them in your files when you retired in 1974 A. I don't remember a library By the time you or an industrial retired hygiene in 1974 had medical | | library been set up A At Illinois ! a At Illinois right \ A. There were some volumes in that field that had been gathered through the years Library is a pretty | big word I don't think it was very much of a library It was a small collection of books Q If you were going to try to give us an estimate of how many books what would you put the range at A. That's a pretty hard question to answer First of all because I never counted the books although they many were catalogued and second years ago to recall what the because that's a good ! shelf looked like ! Q Well would we be talking of something in the | hundreds | ; A. Not over a hundred certainly ' Were the minutes of the Saranac Symposiums put into the library A. Yes a Q Do you know sir whether Illinois 76 continues to maintain such a library A No. I have been away seven years and I haven't been back where these books were kept when I was there since and I don't know where they're kept or how many are kept We talked for a few minutes this morning about the Industrial Hygiene Foundation Have you served as an officer of the Industrial Hygiene Founda- tion A. Not as an officer In fact they have a director ' He's member of the staff of the Industrial ! Foundation They don't have officers in the sense of president president treasurer that sort of thing It's run by the director who is a member of the staff of the Industrial Health Foundation Have you held any position which would give you some say in how the organizatioins run such as being on the board of trustees if they had one on the board of governors or holding some position that would put you into the mainstream of the organization A. I was on the engineering committee and Owens- Illinois was a member of the foundation and I repre- sented Illinois at some meetings with the trustees 77 of the foundation Q Did Illinois always serve on the board - of trustees of IHF going back at least to 1936 A. Not always I don't believe n They did go back A. In the early years which was about 1936 they were on the board of trustees a Did you know or is the name F. W. Sherwood familiar to you A No. i t a Do you remember Mr. Sherwood as being a vice- ( president of Illinois Glass in the 1930's A. It was Abbott W. Sherwood Q Abbott A Yes Q Was he active in the Industrial Hygiene Foundation A. _ I think he was on the board of trustees in the early days a For a long period of time A Not too long a time a few years How long A Three or four years 78 Q During the time that you served on the board of trustees or you attended board of trustee meetings |: of IHF was Manville also a member of the board of trustees A. I think they were I think they were sponsors I mean sponsor of the foundation I think Q How about Pittsburgh Corning A. They may have been but I'm not sure of them either Q Can you recall any other manufactur- ing firms that were on the board of directors of the Industrial Hygiene Foundation A Pittsburgh Corning is not an asbestos supplier are they Q. We may argue that but at times I would con- sider them an asbestos supplier A. That's a new slant for me on them No I don't know whether they were members I wouldn't say there were none Chances are there were some Q Did you ever attend any meetings or confer- | | ences sponsorebdy the United States Government or the Maritime Commission which dealt with asbestos and health 79 A. I don't remember wo} a Did you ever participate in meetings which f. Corning sponsored dealing with shipyard safety A. I don't think so but I don't remember fully a not Your best recollection today is that you did A. I did not yes Q I had also asked you this morning about con- tacts with other asbestos manufacturers Did you have any dealings with Paige Woodard of Manville Corporation A. I don't remember that name I remember Johns Manville of course but not Paige Woodard a Or Charles Hite of Manville = A. = I don't remember him Q Did you have any dealings with anyone from Pittsburgh Corning so as far as asbestos and health was concerned A I don't believe I did It seems to me -- well I don't believe I did Q Are you familiar with a visit by Dr. Shook to Manville and any discussion between Dr. Shook and representatives of Manville concerning the 80 packing and shipping of asbestos in the bag creating dust when the bags were opened A I don't remember that T Q At any time in connection with your activities | as industrial hygienist for Illinois have you conducted any studies as to the effectiveness of respirators A. No sir Q Have you done any studies or reviews of medical literature concerning the effectiveness of respirators A. I wouldn't call it medical literature I would call it industrial hygiene literature or engineering literature Q To your knowledge has Illinois ever conducted any studies of the effectiveness of respirators when used with regard to Kaylo ! A. No we didn't have to Q You did not A. No. We used only approved respirators approved by the U. S. Bureau of Mines Q You never conducted any studies yourself to see whether the respirators were effective or whether ed -- Ps -- C as 81 they kept the dust out or what type of protection they to the workers insofar as the activities of Owensgave Illinois itselifs concerned A. No. a In connection with your work for Illinois Illinois Illinois . did you ever do any dust monitoring or dust studies of the Sayreville or Berlin Plants during the time that they were producing Kaylo for Illinois A. Yes And is that something that fell within your general area of responsibility A. Yes Q Now did you select the places within the plant where the dust collections would be done A. You mean the air samples Q The air sampling right A Yes 0 Was air sampling conducted at the storage or warehouse area where the raw materials came into the plants A. Yes Q And was the air sampling also conducted at the point where the asbestos and the other material was a7) Cf ( 82 mixed into the slurries A That would be in the same areas as the first one if I understood the first one Let me make sure you did The first one really was designed to take the area where the bags of asbestos and raw material came in and were unloaded and stored until they actually went into the production | process A. We did not do it there because the bags were not unwrapped until asbestos was going to be used in the mixing area Q So there were none done at the entrance point so to speak where the raw materials were brought into the factory A. . Not where they were all wrapped bags and tight I assume you did it at various points along the production line A Yes that's right And did you do it at the point where the Kaylo [- ~ would be planed and smoothed A. aQ ee Pee et ere Yes And also where it would be cut into whatever va ae 83 ~_ the proper lengths were A Yes Q Did you do it at the points where the Kaylo would be put into cartons in preparation for shipment A. I'm not sure but I think we probably did at that point Q And how about at the warehouse where the Kaylo was the cartoned Kaylo was stored in anticipation of being loaded onto trucks or whatever else was being used to deliver it to the customers | A. No. Q Were any studies or any dust samplings taken outside the plant that is ambient air samples out- side the walls of the plant itself A. I don't remember Q Is that something that you have done at other Illinois facilities subsequent to 1956 A. _ In recent years when the subject of outdoor air pollution came up we did take some outdoor samples . Back when we were making Kaylo we didn't | ees Q If you were putting a time frame on when you 84 first started doing outdoor air samplings when would you put it 84 A I suppose about ten years ago So roughly 1970 in that neighborhood A. Yeah 0 And what was the purpose of taking the outdoor air samplings A To see whether we were generating any outdoor air pollution Q And that would include monitoring to see whether the materials that were being used in your manufacturing processes were in the air in the vicinity of the plant A. Yes sometimes Now I think you told me this morning that you did not do any air sampling at any customers plants or shipyards Yes A. that's true ; _ | Now during the course of time when Owens- Illinois was manufacturing Kaylo was there a program for rays of plant personnel A. Yes Q Let me go back I forgot to ask you a question With regard to the air sampling at Berlin and Sayreville when did that start { Ve { > an C 85 A. Well it started very recently after this Kaylo was in production in a matter of oh a couple - of months or as soon as the production wrinkles got ironed out so they had a normal operation Q The Berlin and Sayreville Plants were plants that had already been in existence were they not A. Yes a They were then converted to the manufacture of Kaylo A. Yes Q Prior to the Kaylo conversion were dust samplings conducted at those plants air samplings A. Q _ Not by us 86 So that your understanding is that after Kaylo went into production at the plants Illinois began to do air samplings at Berlin and Sayreville A That's my recollection Now if I might go ! back a minute I got out of the Public Health Service in 1946 It seems to me that Berlin and probably Sayreville were already in more or less in pile plant operation at that time So when I said that we sampled after those plants got in production maybe two months they got in production that's not quite 86 accurate because I was still in service when those plants started the operation Q Would it be fair to say that within a few months of your returning to Illinois air samplings samplings were being done at Berlin and Sayreville A I think that would be fair yes And you just don't know whether they were being done before you returned A No. Q If 9 ...back to the question I had asked you about the raying were you involved in the decision " ai to conduct rays at the Berlin and Sayreville Plants A. Of the employees Q of the employees A. Yes Q And were you involveidn the decision as to which employees would be rayed and how frequently they would be rayed A. The frequency was annually We were involved in that The areas in which the men worked was made by the medical director of the plant physician and the personnel director at the plant were involved as well as to a limited extent SE (O A ( L 87 Mr. Hazard would you take a look at Exhibit H17 for a moment It's a letter dated November 21 1952. This is an intercompany memo that you prepared and signed sir A. Yes Q And who is Mr. P. A. Gillis A. He was Personnel Director at the Berlin Plant a And would you tell us sir what the purpose of this November 21 1952 memo to Mr. Gillis was A. This was a letter to Mr. Gillis who was the Personnel Director at Berlin and under whose direction the medical service operated The purpose was to suggest a schedule for raying people in different areas of the plant Q And based on this suggested schedule people who were actually involved in the handling of asbestos and in the mixing operation would be rayed annually A. Yes Q And supervisory personnel would also be rayed annually A. I Q I don't see mention of was referring to the supervisory second page personnel where you talk about plant managers should be rayed every year ) QC ' A. Yes that's right a And the plant manager was not somebody who -. worked directly with asbestos or with the mixing and * * manufacturing process would that be right sir A. Not directly but he at times was in depart- ments where there might be loose asbestos fibers float- ing around Q And in that case you would want him rayed annually A. Well it was an down part of the job He wasn't there a certain period every day He would usually go out every day and walk through the produc- tion areas Would it be fair to say that the plant manager was not somebody who was engaged eight hours a day five days a week 52 weeks a year in the mixing and the manufacturing of asbestos A Oh yes that's fair Another advantage or another thing to accomplish here was if the plant manager put on his respirator when he walked through the Production Department where everybody else was supposed to wear respirators it was a good thing for moral^' and understanding 191 89 Q Let me ask you one other question with regard to the plant manager and the ray Would it be correct to say that when you sent this memo to Mr. Gillis in 1952 that you recognized that the type of result exposure to asbestos the plant manager had could | in his developing asbestosis A. No we couldn't imagine he would get enough exposure to develop asbestosis 8 At any time did Mr. Gillis put this schedule into effect A I don't know Q You don't recall following up to see if an annual ray procedure was in fact established at Berlin A. I have every reason to believe it was but I don't know My memory isn't that vivid I assume it was because he ran a pretty good ship Q Gillis Did you ever receive any reports from Mr. or see any reports prepared by him which would indicate and what to you that the results the ray system was in effect of the rays were dealing with | the Kaylo operation at Berlin A. A little bit more about the system The chest 90 rays on the men were made locally and then the films were sent to Saranac Laboratory for interpretation At the same time the local roentgenologist examined and interpreted them too The Saranac reports came back to us in Toledo We noted them and forwarded them then to the plant So we did know when these rays or if they were taken and what the results were Based on what you say now some system of annual rays did go into effect in Berlin A. I am sure yes Q | A. And at Sayreville Yes Q After the Kaylo Division was sold by Owens- Illinois did you have any further responsibility or any further dealings with Kaylo A. No not at a time when sale was complete a Were you ever called upon by Corning to provide any help or assistance to them with regard to their production and sale of Kaylo after 1959 A They have the access that they could ask us about the results of annual chest rays which they did to some extent as far as they were interested Out- side of that we had nothing to do with it 91 Illinois 0 Did at any time after 1959 manufacture any products which contained asbestos A I don't know Q You don't know one way or the other A. No. I have no reason to think that they did We did have a research laboratory and experimental group and whether they were with us I'm not sure Q Do you have any recollection of any asbestos products being made by Illinois after the sale of the Kaylo Division for commercial sales A. No I don't have any recollection of that Q Mr. Hazard in going through some of the cards of your old speech notes is that the right term to use A. Well talks to be that prevention is a Q One theme seems very important factor a very important part of industrial hygiene Would that be a fair statement A. It's avery important part When you talk about prevention are you Q ing about prevention of occupational diseases talk- A Yes would be considered an occupationa Q And asbestosis CL C 92 disease would it not A. Yes Q And asbestos would be considered more than just simply a nuisance dust is that right sir A Yes Q Just one last item Mr. Hazard Just so the record is clear asbestosis is an industrial disease is it not- A. Yes Q Asbestos is just the dust A. The cause of it Q The cause of asbestosis okay | The last question Mr. Hazard is in going \ through ment or the material you brought there exchange of letters between you is an agreeand Owens- reflutte reflutte Illinois yout I wonder if we could mark those and if could explain to us what your current status with regard to Illinois is Let me take it step by step First could we mark the package of material that you have in front of you Whereupon Hazard Exhibit 22 was marked for identification 93 Q Mr. Hazard do you at the present time have some type of financial arrangement with Illinois A. I am retained as a consultant to Illinois Illinois / in this area of industrial hygiene and a rate of pay is mentioned in here Other than the work you have done with them in connection with the asbestos litigation what other consulting services have you provided for Illinois during the term of this agreement that we have just marked A. Well there has been none where I was paid an hourly rate They have asked my advice on this that and the other thing but I have not been retained for any special job as the consultant Q Has most of your consultant activity under the term of this agreement been involved with asbestos litigation A Well the Kaylo Q The Kaylo litigation A. Right The other thing I have forgotten there is a curriculum vitae and I would like to mark that A. This consulting job is the same as other jobs 94 that I have had in the consulting field It just happens that it's Illinois Whereupon Hazard Exhibit 23 was | marked for identification Q In regard to the curriculum vitae which has just been marked is there anything sitting here today that should be added to it or changed or is it complete complete as of this time A. It looks complete to me There may be an occasional article or paper that is more recent than this which may not be on there but nothing strikes me at the moment MR LEVY Thank you Mr. Hazard MR CALLAHAN I have no other questions questions We have been in session for 55 minutes I think this would be a good time for a break Whereupon a recess was held from 2:30 to 2:50 _ MR ANDREW BERRY Exhibit 2A March 1943 Bowe's to Gardner Exhibit 3A June 25 1943 Bowes to on. Gardner Exhibit 3B June 29 1943 Gardner 95 to Bowes 3C July 6 1943 Bowes to Gardner Exhibit 3D May 24 '44 Bowes to Gardner Exhibit 4A attachment of May 31 1944 to Exhibit 4 Exhibi4tB undated report by Gardner The first line of which is On February 2 1943 we received Exhibit 5A Gardner to Bowes November 27 1944. Exhibit 5B April 18 1946 Bowes to Gardner Exhibit 5C May 13 1946 Gardner to Bowes Exhibit 5D Summary of Animal Inhalation Experiments on Kaylo May 13 1946 5E telegram Hazard to Bowditch January 3 1947 Exhibit 5F Hazard to Bowditch February 6 1947. Exhibit 6B Hazard to Vorwald November 4 1947. Exhibit 6C Bowes to Vorwald November 4 1947. Exhibit 6D Vorwald to Bowes December 12 1947 Exhibit 6E Hazard to Vorwald January 9 1948 Exhibit 6F Vorwald to Bowes January 19 1948 Exhibit 6G Vorwald to Hazard January 19 1948. Exhibit 6H Hazard to Vorwald January 28 1948 Exhibit 61 Vorwald to Bowes March 3 1948. Exhibit 6J Bowes to Vorwald March 96 31 1948. 6K Vorwald to Bowes April 26 1948 Exhibit 9A Vorwald to Shuman December | 23 1948 Exhibit 10A Vorwald to Bowes May 3 1949. Exhibit 10B Bowes secretary to Vorwald May 9 1949. Exhibit 10C Hazard to Vorwald July 6 1949 Exhibit 11A Hazard to Vorwald January 5 1950. Exhibit 11B Vorwald to Hazard January 12 1950. Exhibit 11C Lillian Blinn to Hazard February 24 1950 Exhibit 11D Hazard to Blinn March 7 1950 Exhibit 11E Hazard to Vorwald May 18 1950 Exhibit 11F Vorwald to Hazard May 29 1950 Exhibit 14A Vorwald to Hazard December 18 1950. April 30 Exhibit 14B Hazard to Vorwald 1951. Exhibit 14C Industrial Hygiene Survey May 29 1951 of the Sayreville Sayreville Plant conducted by Saranac Exhibit 14D Hazard to Vorwald June 8 1951 Exhibit 14E Hazard to Durkan July 11 1951 Exhibit 14F Durkan to Hazard August 7 1951 Exhibit 97 14G Hazard to Miriam Sachs November 5 1951 Exhibit 17A Curtis Howard to George White December 9 1952 inclusive of draft pamphlet Exhibit 18A Hazard to Ira Brought July 12 1957 including memo from Hazard of June 12 1956 including memo of same day from Hazard to Stewart and including reprint of what I think is Exhibit 21 which is the article by Schepers Durkan Delahant from the Archives of Industrial Health September 1955 EXAMINATION BY MR ANDREW BERRY a Mr. Hazard my name is Andrew Berry and as you know I am an attorney who represents Illinois With the permission of these other gentlemen and lady at the table I can go first in asking you some ques- tions which I will confine to the general subject matter of the questions that Mr. Levy asked you If you have any problems understanding my fast questions because sometimes I talk too let me know and I will try to rephrase them okay 98 A. Okay Q Mr. Hazard I show you what has been premarkedpremarked as Exhibit 2A through 18A and ask you if you have had a chance to look at them prior to the time I have just handed them to you A. Yes I think I've seen these na na 5 99 Q Mr. Hazard as to those documents included in the Exhibits 2A through 18A which bear your signature or bear your initials can you confirm that they originated from you in the ordinary course of business at Illinois at or about the dates reflected in them and were kept in the ordinary course of business by Illinois A. Yes sir including Q As to the others of those documents those showing you as a recipient directly or as a carbon copy recipient can you confirm that they were documents which were received and maintained by Owens- Illinois in the ordinary course of business as it existed in the 40's and the 50's A. Yes sir a Can you confirm that the documents 2A through you 18A were the sort of documents have described in answer to Mr. question Levy's Levy's when you referred to pulling materials into boxes around April 30th or May 1st 1958 and having them I think you used the phrase sent over to Corning Fiberglas MR KELLY Objection A. Yes Q Let me ask that question another way Do you 100 believe that those documents were sent to Owens- Corning Fiberglas in connection with the sale of the Kaylo Division MR KELLY Objection A. Yes a Mr. Hazard Mr. Levy asked you on a couple of occasions I think whether Illinois put any warning on Kaylo and I think you said that Owens- Illinois did not Why not Why didn't Illinois put a warning on A. The product was safe and the dust from the product was safe Q And on what do you base that opinion A. Early in the days when Kaylo was being made we worked with Saranac Laboratory for them to conduct animal inhalation experiments at Saranac Lake Dust was gathered from a dust arrester at the Berlin Plant and was sent to Saranac where they dispersed it in a room which was lined with animal cages and where the animals breathed this dust This dust being Kaylo dust They followed the animals for a matter of weeks and weeks The daily exposure was eight hours 101 a day five and a half days a week week after week Then at intervals when they assumed from their " experience that the animals might have been affected by breathing the dust they sacrificed groups of animals The first two experiments first two series of experiments were negative The dust had no affect on the animals The third series of experiments showed that the animals had contracted pulmonary asbestosis which was quite surprising really and . at firstsome ofw a h cona cet rn However it was concluded after succeeding experiments that there was no danger to the user of regular commercial Kaylo The reason for this the reasons were two First the exposure to the dust that the animals had was very very high in actual figures in the order of 105 110 115 million particles million asbestos fibers per cubic foot of air The threshold limit value for man is only 5 million fibers per cubic foot of air So the cloud was extraordinarily dense and the reason for this was to speed up the effect on the animals As it is each serie's ran for two or three years but they gave 102 them big doses in order to speed up the effect Now the second aspect was that the animals breathe dust five and a half days ahour hous rs . a day week after week during their lifetime This is a very accelerated experiment No man ever breathes Kaylo dust for his lifetime It would be impossible So because of these two factors One the immense concentration that the animals were exposed to and second the fact that they were exposed for their lifetime made it unnecessary to label the product with some cautionary label In addition to this it was published in the 40's a paper by Drinker and what's his name I forgot it will come to me published in the Journal of the American Industrial Hygiene Association where they examined shipyard insulation workers men who installed instaled pipe insulation on shipboard They concluded the occupation of insulation insulators was a safe one The exposures that these men had were comparable not the same but comparable to what we had in our own manufacturing plant We concluded that people handling Kaylo were also in a safe environment 103 There were other things that were important in making this decision The Kaylo plants at Berlin " and Sayreville New Jersey had no Workmen's Compensation Compensation claims for any disease caused by breathing dust even after a good many years They had no increased sick absenteeism in any way related to asbestos or Kaylo dust The industrial hygiene people and doctors from the State of New Jersey Health Department found the insurance carrier Workmen's Compensation insurance carrier from the Health Foundation from Saranac Laboratory itself and tests that we made at Owens- Illinois showed that the dust exposure at Sayreville and Berlin was within safe limits particularly as regards asbestos dust So the conclusion was that this product was not harmful hence no reason to put a warning label on the carton . Q Mr. Hazard you referred earlier on in answers to Mr. Levy's questions to some time you spent at the Havard School of Public Health in the early 1930's Who hired you A You mean there Q There A. Philip Drinker who was in charge of the 104 Industrial Hygiene Department of the School of Public Health hired me Incidentally you might be interested this same Philip Drinker is the guy that the Drinker respirator the iron lung was named after because he developed it This is aside from any dust consideration but it might be of interest He is a very ingenious man and he hired me because he had an idea for making a recorder to measure dust floating in the air I had some physics background This was to be a photo- electric device where through the film onto you the shine photo a beam of light cells where the dust has been collected on the sheet of transparent film and it was supposed to operate automatically set it up in the room and let it run for eight hours Well we built a couple of them We got two patents on them They were never commercially merchandised but it was the most interesting experience especially working under Phil Drinker and for me because it got me away from physics and into industrial hygiene Q Are you shown as the inventor on the patents that you just referred to A Yes 105 Q A Is there a inventor I'm not sure Actually there is Q Who A. Drinker Q You mention that this device was for measuring airborne dust In the early 1930's what was if you know the conventional device for measuring airborne dust A. The one used mostly in this country was called the Midget Impinger It was a modification of an earlier impinger which was the Greenburg Impinger It was a flask such as this and there was a center tube that went down on the side along here and you sucked air out here and dusty air returned down through the center of the tube and dust was trapped in the distilled water It was used widely It was a tedious painstaking way of measuring dust You had to take your dusty water back to the laboratory and count about ten specimens of it with a microscope So that was the reason that Phil Drinker was angling to get a more automatic instrument in the shape of this thing that he hired me to work on 106 There was a little different instrument used in Britain and South Africa and there were about three or four instruments used for measuring dust all very tedious not too accurate and everybody wanted to get a quicker instrument Q Did the Midget Impinger continue to be used by you throughout the | A Yes and today 40's and 50's Q Was the Midget Impinger or was not the Midget Impinger the standard dust counting device for working hygienists in the 40's and 50's A It was the standard device certainly in this country Abroad they leaned a little bit towards other instruments but it was still used there - You indicated in answer to Mr. Levy's question that after you spent four years I guess at the Harvard School of Public Health including I think you said a year or 18 months with some teaching responsibilities you became employed by Illinois Can you tell us how you became to be employed by Illinois A. The background Q Yes 107 A Sure In 1932 '33 '34 I got into it in '34 I had three sand plants to supply sand to auto plants for making the glass handled a hundred percent silicate These sand plants SIO2 and in the early 30's they woulbde set by suits for Worker's Compensation claiming silicosis in the sand plant personnel Eventually those three sand plants were sold and Illinois was practically out of the sand mining business to everyone's delight But some of the people at Illinois at that time including one member of the Legal Department began if we to wonder we use all this sand in have so much silicosis in the sand making bottles botles plants how about the plants where it's used So he heard of Phil Drinker and he went to the Harvard School of Public Health said he wanted to hire somebody to measure dust in the bottle plants of which there were about nine or ten at that time scattered around the country Well almost a dozen scattered around the country So Drinker suggested by Illinois which is how me and I I came to was hired live in Toledo What was the principal business of Owens- 10 a 108 Illinois in the 30's and 40's and 50's A. Manufacture of glass containers which the . normal person calls bottles but the glassmaker calls them glass containers Q After you began work at Illinois but before you went into the service in 1942 was there any existing work or health or industrial hygiene program at Illinois A. There was practically none at the time I got there which was '34 They did have a man who had done a little bit of dust measurement but it was very minor Q. Aside from the dust measure aspect of it when you came to work at Illinois were there or were there not other programs dealing with industrial hygiene worker health and the like A I guess there were because there are other ingredients besides sand that go into making glass and particularly with colored glass selenium and memogreen There are other airborne contaminants outside of sand Well lead is one Lead is really a far more fast acting material in the body than sand is so there were other aspects to the program 11 109 Q During the course of your employment at Illinois but prior to let us say 1942 did you become aware of the company's policies programs and attitudes with respect to worker health and safety A Yes I did Q Could you characterize them for us A. The company was a great believer in preventa- tive health programs that is preventative sickness' programs Make the plant clean so a person doesn't get sick when he is working on a job That was basic and that still is basic This involves How do you make it clean how do you make the air clean Well you got to trap the dust somehow You can do it through the use of water or through local exhaust ventilation or sometimes change the material itself So they had a pretty broad interest Q Was there a medical program in existence prior to 1942 A Each plant had its own local plant doctor part doctor mostly except for two instances medical director when They did not have a corporate I got there Later on fairly soon well I guess in 110 12 '46 or something like that they did hire a time medical director who coordinated the medical program Q We will get back to that later You used in answer to one of my questions a little while ago the phrase Threshold Limit Value or TLV I forget which one you used Can you explain what the concept is of that A. Yes the concept is that there is a level of practically every material above which you should not have a person exposed for an indefinite period By indefinite in this term I mean the lifetime of occupational history You can go above the TLV level as long as for a similar period you go below it for a similar degree It's not something that you can never go above but you got to even it out so that the average exposure is not above Threshold Limit Value This was a new concept in the 40's I guess They always had these levels which were guides as to how much exposure a human being can accept but the earlier one was the maximum allowable concentration MAC That concept was that you should never go above the maximum allowable concentration but this was 13 111 changed to the TLV concept which has been retained for many years now and is used today Did the concept of the TLV have within it a safety margin A. Yes there was a safety margin A person could be exposed to the TLV for his working life and he would be safe He would be below what the maximum his body would accept Q. Who promulgated the TLV's A. The governmental group which is knowans the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists abbreviated _ updating them every year ACGIH issues these TLV's and having a group of proposed TLV's for a year or two until everybody has a chance to look at them and then they become the permanent TLV Q Well tell me who comprised the ACGIH A. There is a conference that's the name of it a group of persons in industrial hygiene who hold governmental jobs These people may be in the public health service from NIOSH from any government agency where industrial hygiene is practiced and it is practiced pretty widely in the U. S. Government Also 112 14 state governments have industrial hygiene bureaus and those personnel or eligible to belong personnel in those bureaus are to the ACGIH Professors and teachers and researchers can hold membership Indus- trial people or people workinign industry cannot that is I could during the war years but I could not before or after because I was not in a governmental agency Q Did you have membership during the war years | A Yes sir Q Mr. Hazard with respect to the TLV for asbestos which you had mentioned earlier I think you referred to as asbestos particles but tell us if you could what the 5 million particles _ e per cubic foot meant A. I mean how did that work Well I mentioned the Midget Impinger which was this glass flask through the center hollow tube going down air so the into it and a air retaining side arm the dust in which you went down in draw the center tube and bubbled around in here and dust was wetted and retained by the distilled water and then you took this to the laboratory and with a took a small portion of it and put it in pipette flask 15 which is like a blood counting chamber that sort of thing where you have a known thickness of water and you look at it through a microscope The microscope having a lines so field piece in you can define it which is ruled with cross a given known area and then you count those in that area You know the area that you count in you know the thickness of the water the particles were in you know the volume of air you have drawn through You can calculate back to the concentration of particles per cubic foot of air Usually in millions 5 million for example asbestos TLV currently You don't count 5 million you count _ maybe 30 40 50 particles in each of the ten fields in the microscope and then you take the median of those and multiply divide eee ae multiply volume of air eee wee eee pulled pulled Q Not being an industrial hygienistI may be somewhat confused When you said asbestos particles was the 5 million standard applicable to total dust some of which might be asbestos particles or was it applicable to other asbestos particles A. It was applicable to the asbestos particles In the early days of asbestos they counted practically 114 16 all acid insoluble particles Asbestos is characterized as being a fiber shaped thing particles can asbestos of a but when fall off particle fibers so you shape are broken little do get particles of a fiber shape not However several years ago now they came to modify that and today they are supposed to count only fiber shaped particles and forget the round or square particles Q Well let's go back to say the 40's.and the 50's of whether Could you give us your understanding the TLV standard was applicable to the total dust some of which would be comprised of asbestos or whether it was applicable to asbestos particles A Well the current thinking is that it is applicable only to asbestos particles not to total dust Q You told Mr. Levy that you took dust counts in the Berlin and Sayreville Plants How would you reach a decision as to whether the Threshold Limit Value was being exceeded in the plant A. Well you go through this counting procedure 115 that I just described and you know what the Threshold Limit Value is and you compare and what you don't want to exceed sample what your dust is with the TLV a When did you do that in Berlin and Sayreville Was it your practice in the 40's and 50's to take in the percentage of Kaylo which was comprised of| asbestos __ A Yes Q How did that work A. Through collecting settled dust samples from rafters or ledges that sort of thing You could get . dust that had been airborne which means that it was a very fine size fine enough to be inhaled into the lungs and this could be analyzed by ray technicians of asbestos in this settled to find out the percentage dust sample You apply that percentage to the count that you made If you made a total count you applied it to that total count Q Can you give me a numerical example of how that might work Suppose you had a 10 million particle dust count in Berlin or Sayreville A You mean what it would look like 18 116 Q My question is unclear Forget it This method of counting total dust and then figuring out how much dust was asbestos particles was that a method of using the TLV Was it or was it not a method of using the TLV which was usual and customary in the 40's and 50's A It was usual and customary and you had to do it in that way or some equivalent way because you are not interested in total dust You want to know how much asbestos your guy is breathing in Q During the time period that Illinois manufactured Kaylo was the TLV regularly reviewed by the ACGIH A. Yes every year once a year After the Review Committee had decided to change the level it was put on this temporary listing for a couple years and then it was moved over which gave people a chance to consider it and argue about it and so on Q| During the time that Illinois manufac- tured and sold Kaylo did the Threshold Limit Value for asbestos remain 5 million asbestos particles per cubic foot A Y~ s 117 19 Was the ACGIH standard adopted by any governmental or political bodies or subdivisions A. Yes In this country every group that dealt with such things as Threshold Limit Values a Was it adopted in the State of New Jersey A. Yes Q Were you aware during the late 40's and 1950's of any other standard besides the ACGIH promulgated standard which was widely used A. Which was widely used a Yes A. Some states have standards that were a little bit different from the ACGIH special limit value If I remember the State of Massachusetts had slight variations from true for some of the older the ACGIH states who The same was had been in this game for a good many years Q You told Mr. Levy that during the second world war you served in the United States Public Health Service and that it was militarized Did that mean you held a military rank when you were working there A. Yes 20 118 a What rank was that A. I went in as a Captain We wore uniforms " like Army uniforms and then they bumped me up to a Major I think you told Mr. Levy that among your duties during the war was consideration of dust fumes gases at various manufacturing plants in New Jersey and then in New York In carrying out those duties what standards did you apply with respect to dusts if any A. We used the TLV standard and prior to that before they were widely accepted we used the MAC Maximum Allowable Concentration Values In answer to my second or third question I think Mr. Hazard you made reference to an article that was written by Phil Drinker with reference to shipyard workers and insulation In the 1940's were you a subscriber to the Journal of Industrial Hygiene and Toxicology MR LEVY Object to the question Q In any event Mr. Hazard in the 40's did you subscribe to the Journal of Industrial Hygiene 119 and Toxicology A. Viles Yes In Gade 1946 did you read an article by and Drinker in that journal and Fleischer is that the article you referred to A That's the article yes ' Do you remember reading that article in 1946 A. Yes that a How do you remember you read it in 1946 A. As I already mentioned Drinker was the one who gave me my job at the School of Public Health and I knew him personally His office was just down the hall from me and when you know a person that well and have such respect for him you are pretty darn right you are going to read the article that he writes Q After the war you returned to Illinois A. . Yes And I think you have discussed with Mr. Q at some length the various correspondence back Levy and forth with respect to the Saranac animal dust inhalation experiments Did you ever request of the results of these Saranac studies publication 120 22 A Yes we did You mean the experiments with Kaylo Q Yes A. Yes we did Did you as you received the documents which have been marked as Exhibits today from Saranac to and others at Illinois did you compare you reaction or contrast the of the sacrifice guinea pigs and other laboratory animals after exposure to Kaylo with the reaction of similar animals after exposure to other kinds of asbestos containing products or to asbestos A. Saranac I did not personally but Laboratory did and we took those their at the word for it Q- Based upon the entire volume of the correspon- dence and documents flowing back and forth from what did you Saranac and Illinois as to whether or not Kaylo proved a risk conclude to users were in agreement with the. A. We concluded we that the animals who people at Saranac Laboratory dust for a long period of time did breathed Kaylo reaction of the tissue of get a characteristic asbestosis Now you might think well this is a 23 we 121 dangerous product It's not a dangerous product There was no need to label it as such The reason for this as I said was the concentrations to which these animals were exposed were extremely high 110 125 million particles per cubic foot where the leval for man is 5 million So it was far higher than what any man would breathe He would just run for cover He just wouldn't stay in that kind of dust Or run for fresh air I should say Plus the fact that this was for an animal's lifetime that the animal breathed this concentration eight hours a day No man who is an insulator is going to spend his entire working lifetime laying up asbestos He's going to be doing other things part of the day too Fleischer and Drinker did not find that that was a dangerous occupation Or put another way they thought that insulators on shipboard were ina safe occupation Q Mr. Hazard at Berlin and Sayreville is it correct that the manufacturing processes continuously generated dust A No the big source of our dust from uncombined materials was in the batch house where the 122 asbestos soda ash lime were weighed out and put in mixer and stirred up with the water That was an intermittent product of the process The batch house at those two plants as I remember might have operated four or five hours a day if that and the rest of the time was shut down When this slurry this batch got into the kiln and heated then the water is driven off and the chemical reaction is there so it came out as a cake type of thing or a slab or as a piece of cylinder and then the dust was not a problem You could handle it and it was all right You didn't get a big cloud of dust out of it It was all bonded together If you sawed it or planed it then you did have some dust released But the basic material the slab or the - rod contained about only 15 percent asbestos It was not hard even in sawing or planing it to exhaust dust from this so it was a perfectly safe operation Q When you took dust counts at Berlin and Sayreville what standard if any did you apply | A. The TLV a You indicated in answer to Mr. Levy's questions that some other people from time to time 123 25 had taken dust counts at Sayreville and I think you indicated that Saranac Laboratory had done a dust | study A Saranac Laboratory did it the State Health Department did it our Workmen's Compensation insurance carrier did it and those were the ones What standards did they use in determining the air quality within the plant A. They used TLV The same TLV 5 million In answer to Mr. Levy's questions you indicated that there was at Sayreville and Berlin a periodic ray program and that the chest rays which would be taken of the workers who had been working there were sent up to be read at Saranac A. Q- That's right And I think you told Mr. Levy they would then be sent through you That's right Q tured During the time when and sold Kaylo did you Illinois manufacreceive any indication Laboratories that there were any ray from Saranac changes in any of the rays they read which were suggestive of asbestosis 26 124 A No. My memory isn't too good on this but it seems to me that chest rays over a they looked at period of many over a years thousand and they found three that had some evidence that inhalation of dust had had an effect on the lungs but it was not confirmed that this was asbestos dust It could have been silicate dust The picture the markings were faint Q Were you ever advised by Saranac Laboratories that any of the workers in the Berlin or Sayreville Plants had in fact contracted asbestosis A. No. I think I might throw out this thought What's that have to do with the user Well we thought that there would be a bigger dust exposure in our Sayreville and Berlin Plants just by the nature of handling Kaylo all the time 24 hours a day a bigger exposure than what the worker in the field would have We had no hazard Why would we | tell the user in the field that this was a dangerous product Q In the ordinary course of the operation of Illinois in the 1940's and 1950's would complaints from userosf products produced by Illinois 125 which were health related complaints have made their way to you in the ordinary course of business A. A health related complaint of a dust source would certainly have Now we got complaints you know of bottle breakage which is a totally different thing and they did not come through me Q Did you ever get any complaints during the 1940's and 1950's from any users of Kaylo about Kaylo dust A. No. During the time that Illinois manufac- tured and sold Kaylo were you ever advised by Saranac Laboratories or by any other reputable personnel that the TLV's were unreliable A. No. Q Were you during that time period ever advised by Saranac Laboratories or any other person you considered to be reputable that or users of Kaylo were at risk shipyard workers | A No. Fleischer and Drinker's report brought that thought if ever existed to rest because they found that insulators were in a safe occupation Did Saranac ever advise you to take dust 126 28 studies in shipyards or in construction yards or other places where Kaylo was used A No. Q Did Saranac or anybody else for that matter ever suggest to you that you should put a warning label on Kaylo A. No. If I might add a point this was the reason that we welcomed the visit of Saranac and technical people to our Sayreville Plant is that they could see how it was made This is how Kaylo was made and we already mentioned they did make such a visit They took dust counts in the plant at each important operation and they considered it a safe operation Q Kaylo | Mr. Hazard you indicated in 1958 that the Division was sold to Corning Fiberglas A Yes Mr. Hazard other than the putting in boxes of documents that you have already testified to today for what you indicated you believe was transmittal to Corning Fiberglas so as far as you know Illinois did not and I exclude for the moment the 1955 article on the Kaylo experimentast Saranac 29 127 -- Illinois did not transmit the Saranac dust studies or related documents to any other company ' did they A No they did not MR KELLEY Objection Q Did Illinois other than in the boxing and you understood transfer of documents to Owens- Corning Fiberglas transmit the Saranac correspondence and reports which Illinois had received to any other company MR KELLEY Objection A. No. Tell me all of the places if you can remember where the Saranac animal dust studies and related correspondence went if anywhere in 1958 MR KELLEY Objection Q You can answer A. 1958 The year it was sold you mean We usually had as I recall about three copies of each report Of them to Mr. course it came Bowes if he was through me I around to the showed head of the Kaylo Division to Charlie Shook the Medical Director and then sent one to the plant where it was 128 kept I can't be too precise on this because I'm not sure where each copy did go but in general that was the pattern MR KELLEY | I move to strike the answer as speculatiavned unresponsive MR ANDREW BERRY I think that's all I have Mr. Hazard A. Might I add one thing more We wanted Saranac to publish the results of their animal experiments Well finally they did do it So it's public knowledge There is no secret about it MR ANDREW BERRY That's all I have Thank you Mr. Hazard Whereupon a recess was held from 3:55 to 4:15 o'clock p.m. MR MCMONAGLE Tim McMonagle on behalf of Fibreboard's Counsel in Boston Massachusetts which is Sloan & Walsh represented by Robert Gilden n On behalf of those cases only involving Fibreboard we would object to the terminating of this deposition at this time and would like to reserve our rights to recall Mr. 129 31 Hazard I have spoken to Mr. Callahan his Counsel that I was going to put this on the record EXAMINATION BY MR KELLEY Q Mr. Hazard my name is John P. Kelley and I'm the attorney for Corning Fiberglas Corporation I just have a few short questions for you At least I hope that will be the case First of all you testified concerning transfer of documents to Corning You don't know of your personal knowledge -- you didn't physically witness that transfer did you sir A No sir I know they were put in the cartons and that's as far as I know because it was 4:30 and I went home Q here In other words your knowledge of the facts is simply that you saw all the documents put in the cartons A. That's correct Q And beyond that you know nothing else is that correct sir 130 32 A That's correct Also you testified concerning Mr. Edward ftAmes and possible dealings with him in 1941 Do you recollect that testimony this morning A. You remember what I said about him probable Q Well you said that it was likely and and they are the words you used that you may have discussed the return of the government document with reference to the inhalation of asbestos with Mr. Edward Ames Do you remember the testimony that regard sir A. Yes You have no present recollection as to Q whether you had any discussion with Mr. Ames isn't that correct sir A That is correct You cannot recall specifically today discussing anything with him is that correct sir I am not surprised if I A. That's correct did Somebody might say I did I'm not surprised at that but I personally am not sure remember anything about it if in Q You don't fact it ever did happen 131 That's right Is that right A Yes Q We just wanted to clear that up in the record on behalf of those points Now I had a couple of documents I want you to look at First of all would someone hand the Witness Exhibit 17A Now this sir if I can refresh your memory contains the this is a covering letter and also proposed pamphlet with reference to handling Kaylo product Will you take a look at that and tell me whether that's a correct statement I made A. - Yes that's correct And you participated in the preparation of this pamphlet did you not sir A. Yes concur with what's stated therein Q And do you sir a A. Q In the pamphlet That's right I haven't read it for quite a while Well take time to read it now In fact I 34 132 132 know we're under strain to get this questioning over today I will direct your attention to Page 4 the | general conclusion wherein it states Experience in the factories and field and research findings have proven that normal handling of Kaylo products is safe from a health standpoint The usual precau- tionary measure taken for any product containin_g asbestos are needed in a continued exposure to heavily concentrated Kaylo dust Do you understand that conclusion sir A. Yes Q Is that in accord with your thinking on this subject A. . Yes it is I want to direct your attention to Exhibit 18A Is that merely your initials on a covering memo concerning this pamphlet or concerning a letter to Ira Brought A I beg your pardon Q Exhibit 18A which consists of a memo signed by you and also a letter of June 12th looks like 1956 to Mr. Ira Brought A. Yes 35 133 Q First of all take a look at these documents tell us whether you in fact prepared these and MR ANDREW BERRY By the documents Mr. Kelleyy ou mean the first two pages of Exhibit 18A MR KELLEY Yes . A. Yes Q And they represent your position on this matter sir your view of the Kaylo product A. The one to Mr. Stewart I read I haven't read all of this first page The one to Mr. Stewart is satisfactory MR ANDREW BERRY In the interest of time would you like to direct the witness attention to any specific paragraph on the first page MR KELLEY No I would like him to read the whole letter A. Yes okay Does that represent your position sir the a letter to Mr. Ira Brought A. Yes a document that hasn't 0 I want to show you 134 36 been marked Whereupon Hazard Exhibit 24 was | marked for identification Q I would like to show you Exhibit 24 and it's on the paper of Illinois Glass Company It's a research paper with referencte o hydrous calcium silicates and direct your specific attention to Page 22 the second paragraph which concerns itself with other properties of Kaylo and ask you to read this into the record and then state whether that in fact represents your position in this matter Have you ever seen that paper before sir A. I don't remember Have you read the second paragraph on Page 22 - A. Q Yes sir Do you concur with that paragraph sir A. - Yes Q Would you read it into the record A. The dust of Kaylo consists of a hydrous calcium silicate and asbestos and the hazards of such dust to health have been investigated by the Trudeau Laboratories at Saranac Lake New Jersey The hydrous 135 37 calcium silicate is harmless and the asbestos manifested the usual effect of this mineral The actual hazard to health of those handling Kaylo was | considered to be small MR KELIEY Thank you No _ further questions FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR LEVY Q Mr. Hazard as long as you have Exhibit 24 in front of you that's the one that was just marked Did you have anything to do with the preparation of it A. Q . I don't remember Had you ever seen it before today A. - I don't remember that either Q It was not in the pile of material that Illinois provided to you A. No. Q The portion that Mr. Kellehayd you read into the record I think you read that the asbestos manifested the usual effect of this mineral Do you remember that sir 136 A Yes Q And what is your understanding of the usual effect of this mineral A. Are you on the first sentence Q No I was on the second paragraph You read a sentence The hydrous calcium silicate is harmless and the asbestos manifested the usual effect of this mineral A Yes Q What is your understanding of the usual effect of this mineral a A. Well I take this mineral to mean asbestos a Right A. And I take the effects of asbestos to usually be a thickening of the lung tissue impairing the transfer of oxygen to the blood causing shortness of breath Q Essentially for shorthand what is referred to as asbestosis Yes Q Do you understand that the usual effect of this mineral also includes bronchogenic carcinoma f A. No I do not ,. 137 Q Do you that it includes Do you understand that it includes understand gastrointestinal cancers > ae) A No sir Q Or various other forms of cancer > A. No I do not Q So your understanding is that the usual effects of asbestosis as used in this document refers to asbestosis changes which and the symptoms and physiological occur from asbestos inhalation A. Yes Let me get one point here I am talking about the era when we had Kaylo and made it I am not talking about recent years Well has your understanding about the usual effect of asbestos exposure changed in the last few years then A. Yes Q To the point where you do now recognize bronchogenic cancer as an effect of asbestos et A. I recognize it as a current effect exposure currently known effect Q And do you recognize at the present time that other cancers also are a result of asbestos Serre exposure and inhalation 138 40 A. I know less about that but I have heard of them Q Now as an industrial hygienist you were familiar were you not in the 1940's with the concept of a latentcy period A Latentcy in what respect Q Between an exposure to a disease and the manifestation of that disease A. Yes Q That was a concept which was known and accepted in the industrial hygiene and industrial medicine areas is it not A. Yes a And by that you understood at that time that there were diseases where a person might be exposed and there would be a substantial period of time between the exposure to the substance or the mineral or the chemical and the time that the disease would manifest itself A. Let me clarify that just a minute I recognized at that time that in the case of exposure to asbestos and the case of exposure to free silicate the disease does cee enn ee a not A develop considerable period of time ne quickly a matter There is of years a oftentimes 139 41 before the development of the disease However if you take the guy out of the exposure oftentimes the disease never develops the Q But just in terms of development of the disease you did recognize and you did understand period the concept of a latentcy between exposure and manifestation of the illness A. I question the word latentcy period It's a continued exposure before the disease develops Would you feel more comfortable then that there was a period of time that elapsed between the commencement of the exposure to the substance or the mineral or the chemical and the time when the disease manifests itself A. Yes I like that better Q- And you understood did you not that such did exist with regard to asbestosis a latentcy period | Well time of exposure that you just recounted yes Q You knew that in the 1940's and 1950's did you not A. Yes a result of reading the Q And you knew that as 140 medical literature dealing with asbestosis that you've mentioned to us A. Yes at And did you understand that time that the or this period from the commencement exposure period of the exposure to the manifestation of the disease years with regard to asbestos could be many A. Well usually several years Q Had you read any of the reports indicating a period of ten years or more between the commencement of the exposure and the manifestation of the disease with regard to asbestosis A. Ten years I wouldn't go many more years than that . Today you recognize that the latentcy or the exposure period could be much greater than ten years is that right A. 0 What do you mean by today Q Well sitting here today A. You mean in the light of present knowledge Q In the light of present understanding as have known in the distinguished from what you may 1940's and 1950's 141 43 A. Yes Q And it coulbde 20 years or more is that - right sir A. I think that's stretching it You think that's stretching it Where would Q cut off the period before the manifestation of you asbestosis would develop _ A. Six to ten years Q And that's based on today's knowledge A. No based on knowledge that we had then back because I want to be ' Well let me go sure we're together Your understanding in the 1940's and the 1950's was that there might be a six to ten commencement of the exposure and year period between of the disease is that right the manifestation from the A. Yes with continued exposure | commencement to the manifestation yes understanding is that period Q But today your much can be is that right greater than ten years Well I don't want to A. It's my impression get into this cancer bene email thing that may be what you have in Q the back of your mind No I'm talking just about asbestosis not cancer meme = 1 _ 142 A. No I think our feeling today is the same as it was in this period the a Have you continued to keep abreast of ten medical literature in the last years since you retired from Illinois A Well I retired seven years ago I have kept abreast When abreast and as the I first retired I years went by my kept very actively interest sort of keeping probably tapered off a little bit so I am not as I was when I retired as abreast today Q. By the way back in the 40's and 50's also familiar in the industrial hygiene and ; were you industrial medicine area with the concept of a dose- response relationship A. Yes - 2 And could you explain for us what your understanding at that point in time was of a dose- response relationship A. I'm sure that I learned it in that period of time but the dose is the amount of the insulting material that you are exposed to and the amount of it and the length of time that you are exposed to it In a sense the greater the exposure the Q 143 shorter period of time that might be necessary to bring about the physiological change A. Yes And concurrently or conversely the lesser the exposure the longer it might take for the same type of physiological change to develop and appear A Yes Q. in the Now 1940's when you were reviewing the literature and 1950's did you review or read any of the medical reports showing cases of cancer cancer . bronchogenic cancer developing among asbestos workers A. A. Q - I don't remember them cases indicating that Have you ever seen any I never seen any cases Have you ever seen any studies A. Recently Q Recently being what the last how many years A. . Ten years Q. You mentioned at one point this afternoon the concept of TLV or Threshold Limit Value Do you remember that A. Yes a And is it correct sir that the Threshold 144 Limit Value that you talked about did not apply and did not contemplate cancer A. Yes toward It only applied or was directed the or the hope that if it were met that possibility asbestosis might be averted A. That was the concept in the period that we're Q talking about And you mentioned and certainly it did not apply with mesothelioma A. No. mentioned the ACGIH That is not Q. Now you | a governmental body it A. It's made up of government employees Q. - But it is not a governmental body with the capability of -- A. Under the U.S. Constitution Q. It is not a body that has an authority to promulgate Government standards on or any State behalf of the Federal Government is that right A. That's right Q that the I think you've agreed with me earlier Now disease of asbestosis has been known for 145 47 some period of time prior to Illinois beginning work on Kaylo A. Yes Q And you do know don't you sir that asbestosis was recognized as a compensable disease in many states throughout the United States prior to 1940 A. Yes Q Including Ohio A. I don't know in Q. But any event recognized in many states A. Yes Q. Now you talked about the reporbty Fleischer dealing with the shipyard Do you remember that sir A. Yes Q. Did you give any consideration to the period by of exposure of the people who were studied Fleischeirn that report A They gave some data on that point which I don't remember at the moment I mean that was case data ' studied Were you aware sir of the people only a very few I think about three had exposures 146 of greater than 10 years A. Three Q Yes Let me rephrase the question since Mr. Rubin tells me my numbers are wrong and I don't want to have the wrong numbers Were you aware that there were very few people who were studied that had exposure of over 20 years A. Yes ' that And were you aware there were a large number who had exposures of 10 years or less A Yes Were you aware sir that of the people who were studied and for which information was provided that the people over 20 years had a very high percen- tage of asbestosis found A. Three cases Q. Percentagewise that was a very high percen- tage wasn't it sir A. Well I don't know offhand I would have to look it up What do you mean by high Q. High A Yeah a Enough that you as an industrial hygienist 147 49 Illinois for a company like would have been concerned if those figures represented findings with regard to your own employees cases A. Those represented exposures of a wide variety - not all of them on shipboard Did you recognize at the time you read the Drinker report that there Fleischer finding of asbestosis among people was a significant with longer latentcy periods than among those with shorter periods of exposure _ A. Yes that's what we've been talking about Q And you understood that when you read the Fleischer report that that's what the report showed A. Yes it was brought up by the report talked about the Saranac study Q Now you and in a little detail this afternoon also Owens- Illinois financed the Saranac study did it not | | A Q tial Yes And financed it continuously for a substan- period of time beginning 1943 and continuing . until the final report in 1952 A Yes 148 50 50 Q And did Illinois consider that to be a significant research effort A Very definitely Q And being conducted by a research laboratory that you had a great deal of confidence and respect in A Yes ' And did you have a great deal of confidence and respect in Dr. Vorwald A. Well yes and no I had more confidence and respect Q in Dr. Gardner than I But you continued to had in Dr. Vorwald finance the study after Dr. Gardner died A. I don't mean I mistrusted Dr. Vorwald but I thought that Dr. Gardner had greater experience You said you read the correspondence and a you did read the exchange of letters from Dr. Gardner in which him some he mentioned that asbestos in Kaylo gave concern because of the dangerous characteris- tics of asbestos A. Yes recognized a And you knew that he at the very beginning of the study that asbestos was dangerous harmful to health and it created a potential problem for Kaylo A. Well no I knew that he knew that asbestos could be dangerous and we knew that too That's why we went to him Q In the March 12th letter 1943 Exhibit H3 Dr. Gardner said The The fact See that you are starting with a mixture of quartz and asbestos would certainly suggest that you have all the ingredients for a first class hazard ee A Yes a That clearly suggested didn't it that Dr. Gardner recognized and was telling Illinois in 1943 that by using asbestos in their product they had the potential for a first class health hazard did it not A Not exactly We knew what he was talking about already We knew it had silica in it We knew it had asbestos in it Q You recognized that either of those or both presented significant health hazards to users of the product A. No we didn't 52 150 a You didn't recognizien 1943 that silica presented a significant health hazard A We thought it might We didn't know it would a How about asbestos A. Same with that We thought it might We didn't know it would Q And Dr. Gardner was pointing out that very problem for you A. Yeah it wasn't new Q Now Illinois knew did it not during the time it was financing the Saranac Kaylo study that these were animal studies that were being done did they not A. We knew that Q. And you continued to finance the studies knowing that they were animal studies A. Yes sir were assuming that you would be Q Because you able to obtain from the animal studies data which would be helpful to you in terms of pointing out with whether there were health hazards involved Kaylo products vo A. Yes Q And you recognized did you not during the 151 study that one of the things that is done with animal studies is that the animals are usually subjected to " extreme concentrations of the product which is being tested A Yes in the case of material like silica and asbestos Q. But the purpose of an animal study essentiallyessentially is to concentrate and shorten the time span A. I think you are generalizing there exposure to some substances exposure period Some doesn't have have to be shortened very much The reaction is very immediate but not in the case of asbestos and silica Q In the case of Kaylo wasn't the purpose of animal studies to get a reading and to find out what would happen when animals were subjected to high concentrations of Kaylo dust in a relatively concen- trated period of time A Over a lifetime Q Over a lifetime of the animal A. Yes a And the expectation is that the information would then be translatable into what would likely happen to humans who were exposed to the product 152 A. It would be a guide it to be a guide when you Q And you expected - financed the study didn't you A. Yes Q And you knew that the high concentrations were being used of the Kaylo dust and you knew that it was being used over a relatively short period of time the life of the animal A. It was a relatively long period of time if it's a lifetime Q. of this All right Now when you got the study it came in over a period of results time is that right A. Q to it Yes And the first as the first and 18 months I think you referred second study but really you are talking about the reports coming in over a period of time aren't you A. I'm not sure about that point Q to be I mention it is because I want The reason studies clear that there are not different There is really one Kaylo study that we're talking about 55 153 A. I thought there were different studies Q then All right Let's work on your assumption You understood that at the beginning the animals were sacrificed after a relatively short period of time A. Yes as Q And a result of the sacrifice over a short period of time no symptoms no pathological changes of any significance were shown A. I see what you mean . But as the period of exposure expanded or extended from 18 months to 30 months that you began to show or the study began to show significant pathological changes in the animals A. Yes Q exactly And what this was happened in fact with the wasn't it Mr. Hazard latentcy concept Well there was more involved here than just A | | latentcy Well don't you have the situation Q. A There was tremendous exposure amount Q There was no difference in the of that the animals were subjected to in the exposure 154 56 first 18 months compared to what they were subjected to in the secon1d2 months of the 30 month period A. I see what you mean Yes Q It was consistent for those animals over the entire 30 month period isn't that right A. Well if you sacrificed two bunches from the original bunch you have lost those and you don't know this consistency thing would Q No one knows what happen if that animal had not been sacrificed A. Right Q - But the purpose of sacrificing some at 12 months some at 18 months and some at 30 months was to see how the animals which were similar would be in terms of time affected by an increased exposure isn't that right A. Yes And the result of increase in time was a Vorwald reported to you by Dr. to show that as the increased from 18 months to 30 months exposure changes significant changes adverse pathological | occurred in the animals A Yes 155 57 Q And that is comparable is it not Mr. Hazard to what would happen to a person who is working in shipyard an environment whether it be a plant or a then who works three years and five years and seven years of dust would You have the same increase in the amount to which that person had been exposed as the duration of the time continues is that correct A. It could be comparable So therefore what you learned from the Q Saranac study if you learned nothing else was that increase in the duration of exposure tended to the bring out in the animals that there would be patholo- _ gical changes with the increase in the period of exposure ert A. Yes And that information was transmittable and translatable into the human experience wasn't it A. No. Dr. When Q All right you received Vorwald's in 1948 in which he first advised you of what letter had happened to the animals after 30 months he expressed didn't he his concern If you refer to Exhibit 9 again the November 16 1948 letter 156 58 Dr. Vorwald was telling you at that point in time wasn't he that the increase in the duration of time that the animals had been exposed to Kaylo brought about the significant changes in the pathology of the animals A. What page are you on Q. I'm right on the first page in the third paragraph A What was your question Q My question is In this letter Dr. Vorwald was pointing extending of out the to you to Illinois that the duration to which the animals had been exposed brought about the development of asbestosis in the animals A. Yes Q animals In fact he even says that in all of the sacrificed asbestosis was found doesn't it A. Yes point telling a And he was you at that wasn't he had that this was a problem that you to consider because of the health Illinois implications . of the animals studied MR KELLY Objection 157 A. Yes Q Now you also said at one point this afternoon that you had no reports of Workmen's Compensation claims I think you said being filed in the early 1950's with regard to Kaylo is that right A. Yes Q. And I think you also indicated to me earlier that the production of Kaylo began on a small basis either a test or a small commercial basis in the early '40 period before you got back and that after that it began on a commercial basis is that about the right time frame A. I think that is I'm not sure just when it began on a commercial basis but that was about the sequence Q. were Would it be correct working on the brochure to say that when you that you were asked about this afternoon that you really Illinois really had less than 10 years of manufacturing exposure to Kaylo A. Ten years I would say any way And similarly people out in the field who were using Kaylo had less than ten years of exposure 158 60 to Kaylo A. Yes Q Now you also said earlier that shipyard workers work in confined spaces Do you remember that A. Yes Q And you said at one point that the plant I think managed to stay pretty close within the TLV whether it was the 5 million particle standard or effect whatever standard was in A Yes ' And based on your activities in the plant you were trying to maintain the best possible environment in the plant weren't you A The most needed environment Q - You were putting in local exhaust and ventilation and things like that a LO A. Yes ee a . Trying to clean up the atmosphere in the plant A. Q A. Q Yes Do you think you succeeded Yes S^ in your opinion the plant in your view 159 61 well in terms of maintaining a good was doing pretty dust environment A Yes ships Now you know that the workers aboard worked in confined areas did you not A. Yes Q And you know that you frequently had not only the people who were actually doing the pipefitting and the working with the asbestos products but other were also working in the same confined area trades A Yes That was something that was known to you Q wasn't it A. Q| Yes And do you have any idea as to what the comparable dust figures were with regard to your plant after you had been able to bring in all the environ- mental A. and controls dust equipment that you did In our plant the dust levels were below the TLV and the Fleischer report gives their figures a too so the figures are available Have you ever spoken to any shipyard workers A. I. don't know 167 62 Q Have you ever had the opportunity to have anyone tell you about what conditions were like in 7 when they were insulating aboard the confined spaces a ship A No. Q Have you ever had anybody tell you about not being able to see from one end of a compartment to another end of a compartment because the asbestos to was so thick they couldn't see from one side dust another MR KELLEY Objection A. No. You didn't know that when you drafted the Q brochure or reached your views about the health hazards involved in Kaylo did you sir A. Q. actual We knew about the health hazards in Kaylo you What I am asking didn't know about the conditions aboard ships during installations and during rip outs did you A. We knew what Drinker and Fleischer wrote Did you know about the actual conditions MR KELLEY Objection MR ANDREW BERRY Objection Well were based on actual A their figures \ \ 161 63 conditions Q Illinois Did you ever go aboard any ever send anybody aboard a ships Did Owensship and take a dust count in the areas where your products were being used A. No. Q You never made that effort to see whether what was happening aboard the ships to the people who | were actually using Kaylo was comparable to what was happening in your plants did you MR KELLY Objection A. No it was not necessary When you say it was not necessary you mean that you didn't need that information A. We had comparable information accumulated elsewhere study You have mentioned only the Fleischer What other comparable information did you . have A. Air samples that we made in our own plant where Kaylo was processed . Q Did you ever go aboard a ship or did you ever see anything of the conditions aboard a ship 162 64 other than the Fleischer report A Well I have been aboard a ship yes Q During insulation work Not during insulation work A. you Let me put the question to Mr. Hazard so we can get it finished Did you have any informa- tion other than the Fleischer report as to the conditions were aboard ship during insulation what and during rip out of insulation MR KELLEY I'm going to object This is repetitive These questions were all asked just a minute and a half ago MR LEVY I think there is a little bit of ambiguity That's all I am trying to clear up the did me Other than Let rephrase the question | - Fleischer report which you have mentioned information based on the tests you ever have any based were of what the conditions on personal experience aboard a ship during the time when asbestos or asbestos insulation _ insulation was being applied was being ripped out a A No. 163 164 I have no other the deposition was o'clock p.m. WILLIS HAZARD a ( tary Public in and for mmissioned and qualified within witness irst duly sworn to tell and nothing but the truth at the testimony then given " stenotype in the presence ; transcribed upon a typeing is a true and correct mony so given by him as lace in the foregoing caption eted without adjournment certify that I am not a relative any party or otherwise t of this action EREOF I have hereunto set my al of office at Toledo Ohio 1981 February Backi DianneDIANNE BOCHI Notary Public .n and for the State of Ohio February 25 1982 .fy hat this deposition was wr u_Ww 3 OA 4 having PoaTua I been PEGU HOWARD MOES duly sworn tell previously MS 1 M|S 8 IGATONTA a anot ** ** : tell truth examined Tusa ST CUS FRO truca, anc SUC fFtnceu us tae LUNG Wiole snNoOts WWE2 * WWE2 I 6'11 6'11 s =