Document 2NBrLdedg1py40zb31yJvqaYN

171 1 IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF 2 WASHINGTON COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA 3 4 ESTATE OF BOYD CUTRIGHT, 5 Plaintiffs, 6 -agaiost7 A-BEST PRODUCTS COMPANY, ET AL., 8 Defendants. 9 10 VIDEOTAPE DEPOSITION of the Defendant, 11 FRICTION MATERIALS STANDARDS INSTITUTE, taken by 12 and through its representative, EDWARD W. DRISLANE, 13 held at the Marriott Hotel, 189 Wolf Road, Albany, 14 New York, on Wednesday, December 4, 2002, 15 commencing at 9:27 a.m.; before Peggy Alexy, 16 Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for the 17 State of New York. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 -~--------,.-------------------------------------- 172 1 APPEARANCES: GOLDBERG, PERSKY, JENNINGS & WHITE, P.C. 2 1030 Fifth Avenue Pittsburgh, PA 15219-6295 3 BY: AARON J. DeLUCA, ESQ. Attorney for Plaintiffs 4 COHEN & GRIGSBY 5 11 Stanwix Street, 15th Floor Pittsburgh, PA 15222-1319 6 BY: KEVIN C. HARKINS, ESQ. Attorney for Defendant FMSI 7 8 DICKINSON, WRIGHT, PLLC 500 Woodward Avenue, Suite 4000 9 Detroit, Michigan 48226-3425 BY: ROBERT S. KRAUSE, ESQ. 10 Attorney for Defendants Ford, GM, Daimler Chrysler 11 12 LAVIN, COLEMAN, O'NEIL, RICCI, FINARELLI & GRAY 13 Suite 1000, 510 Walnut Street Penn Mutual Tower 14 Philadelphia, PA 19106 BY: CHRISTINE 0. BOYD, ESQ. 15 Attorney for Defendant General Motors Corporation 16 17 RILEY, McNULTY, HEWITT & SWEITZER, P.C. 18 650 Washington Road, Suite 300 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15228 19 BY: JEFFREY J. LEIBECK, ESQ. Attorney for Defendants N.V. 20 Automotive Supply, Inc. and Potomac Creek Auto Parts, Inc. 21 22 DICKIE, McCAMEY & CHILCOTE Two PPG Place 23 Pittsburgh, PA 15222-5402 BY: HUNTER A. McGEARY, JR., ESQ. 24 Attorney for Defendants Bong-Warner, Pneurno-Abex, B.F. Goodrich, Flintkote P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 SMITH, ABBOT, LLP 3 New York Plaza New York, New York 10004 BY: PETER POLCHINSKI, ESQ. Attorneys for Defendant Pneuma Abex DRINKER, BIDDLE & SHANLEY, LLP 500 Campus Drive Florham Park, NJ 07932-1047 BY: MICHELLE GRADY, ESQ. Attorney for Defendant Honeywell MR. PATRICK T. HEALEY Executive Director Friction Materials Standards Institute ,., ,, ':- P.O. Box 12459 Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 - ----------------------------------------------- 09 : 27 : 0 9 : 24 09 : 28 1 4 : 03 09: 28 15: 28 09: 28 18 : 22 09: 28 20: 15 09: 28 :21 24 09 : 28 : 24 12 09 : 28 : 25: 21 09: 28 :29: 09 09: 28 31 27 09: 28 34 00 09 : 28 36 : 00 : 28 : 37 06 09 : 28 41 18 09 : 28 45 : 03 09: 28 47 : 16 09: 28 49: 15 09: 28 : 52: 18 09 : 28 : 55: 0 9 09 : 28 : 56 : 2 5 09 : 28 : 58 : 28 09 : 29 : 00: 12 09: 29: 01 : 19 09: 29: 03: 21 MR. PIAZZA: My name is Thomas Piazza. I reside in Albany, New York. I am a video specialist from Maggard Associates, whose principal place of business is Albany, New York. I will be the operator of the audio video equipment for the continuation of the testimony of Edward W. Drislane being videotaped at 189 Wolf Road, Albany, New York. The caption of the case is in the Court of Common Pleas of Washington County Pennsylvania, the Estate of Boyd Cutright, Plaintiffs versus Abex Products Company, et al, Defendants. This videotape is being taken on behalf of the plaintiff. The date is December 4th, and the time now approximately 9:20. Counsel will now introduce themselves, please. MR. DeLUCA: Good morning. My name is Aaron DeLuca. I represent the family of Boyd Cutright. MR. HARKINS: My name is Kevin Harkins. I represent Friction Materials Standards Institute. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 - --~~----- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 09: 29 07 : 04 09 : 29 08: 16 09 : 29 10: 27 09 29: 12 : 04 09 29 : 14 00 09 : 29 : 1 5 : 1 8 09 : 29 17 : 06 09 : 29 : 20 : 13 09: 29: 21 21 09 :29: 21 21 09: 29: 23 : 21 09 : 29 : 26 : 07 C?:<' 2 9 , 2 7 , o 7 09 : 29 : 2 9: 27 09 : 29 : 32 : 13 09 : 29: 33: 15 09 : 29: 35: 27 09 : 29 : 36 : 01 09: 29: 36: 01 09 : 29 : 36 : 01 09 : 29 : 36 : 01 09:29:43:18 09:29:43:18 09:29:43:25 MR. KRAUSE: My name is Robert Krause, I represent Ford General Motors and Chrysler. MS. BOYD: My name is Christine Boyd, I also represent General Motors. MR. LEIBECK: My name is Jeff Leibeck, I represent N. V. Auto Parts and Potomac Creek Auto Supply. MS. GRADY: My name is Michelle Grady, I represent Honeywell International Incorporated. MR. McGEARY: My name is Hunter McGeary, I represent Bong-Warner Corporation and Flintkote. MR. PIAZZA: The court reporter will now introduce herself and swear in the witness, please. THE REPORTER: My name is Peggy Alexy. I'm here for Alliance Court Reporting. Mr. Drislane, would you raise your right hand. Edward W. Drislane, having been called as a witness by and on behalf of the Plaintiff, and having been first P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 o9:29:43:25 o9 : 2 9 : 5 1 o6 09 : 29: 5l 2l 09 : 29: 53 : 18 09 : 29 : 54 : 10 09 : 29 : 55 : 27 09 29 : 55 : 27 09 29 : 59: 00 09: 30 02 : 1 6 09 : 30 09: 00 09 : 30 l 2 : 1 9 09 : 30 l 5 : 15 (0~iJ 3 0 : l 8 : 1 3 09: 30 : 20 : 27 09: 30 : 24 : 1 0 09: 30 :25 : 06 09: 30 :27 :24 09: 30 : 32 03 09: 30: 34 22 09: 30 : 38 03 09 : 30 41 : 27 09 : 30 47 : 24 09 : 30 54 : 12 09: 30: 58 : 09 duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: BY MR . DeLUCA : Q Good morning, Mr. Drislane. A Good morning. Q How are you today? A Fine. Q Before we begin, I want to mark as Exhibit 19 a Notice of Continued Deposition, which was filed in regard to this matter. May I begin by asking you, sir, whether you have had a chance to review the testimony that you gave in October? A No. Q Is there anything as you sit here right now that you want to take back that you told me or change in any way? A Not that I know of. Q Okay. Fair enough. I want to talk to you about a handful of issues today, and I don't think we are going to go more than three or four hours. The first one I want to talk to you about relates to money. Would you agree with me, Mr. Drislane, in the 1970s and in the 1980s, one of the major reasons friction companies didn't move towards non-asbestos products was the cost P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 --- --~---------"----------------------------------------- l<'.r'l ~ rr'l W Dri .c:: l ~nP - 'Rv Mr Dr=>T 11r~ 09 : 31 : 01 : 24 09 : 31 03 : 01 09 : 3l 03 : 21 09 : 31 13 : 28 09 : 31 l 6 : 06 09 : 31 1 9 : 1 8 09 : 31 22 : 28 09 : 31 : 25 : 25 09 : 31 : 28 : 07 09 : 31 28 : 1 3 09 : 31 31 : 07 09 : 3l 35 : 28 (":". '~ .:L:::: 3 1 09: 31 3 9: 15 42: 21 09 : 31 46 : 00 09 : 31 : 4 9: 12 09 : 31 4 9 : 12 09 : 31 52 : 22 09 : 31 58 : 25 09: 32 01 07 09 : 32 03 : 1 5 09 : 32 1 0 : 19 09: 32 : 11 12 09 : 32 : 17 24 involved? A I don't know. Q As with your last deposition I have a lot of documents that I have gone through, and I want to ask you about some of them. And I have them here on the screen, and I am also going to hand you a hard copy in most instances, and you can feel free to review them as necessary, all right? A Yes. Q And let me tell you from the outset that it is not my goal or strategy to try to trick you. I'm not here to test your memory, but I want to know what you recall and what you don't, and to the extent you don't recall something, perhaps the documents will refresh your recollection, okay? A Okay. Q The first document I want to show you was marked as Exhibit 18 to your first deposition, and I have it here on the screen, and it was the minutes of the meeting of the Asbestos Study Committee from August 17th, 1972, all right? A All right. Q And I want to show you a section on page 5 of that document that's titled "Consideration of P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 F'. rl w .:=~ rd W fJ r i ~ 1 .:=1 n P - "R v M r n P T,11 r .:=~ 09 32 : 23 : 01 09 : 32 36 : 27 09 32 38 : 1 8 09 32 42 : 24 09 : 32 44 : 19 09 : 32 48 :28 09: 32 52 00 09 : 32 54 12 0 9 : 32 : 5 6 : 03 0 9 : 32 5 8 : 07 09 : 33 : 01 10 0 9 : 33 : 04 03 33 : 07 0 9 0 : 33 : 10: 00 09 : 33 : 10 : 21 09 : 33 : 16 : 27 09 : 33 :19: 18 09 : 33 :19: 18 09 : 33 : 22 : 18 09 : 33 : 24 27 09 : 33 27 24 09: 33 28 24 09 : 33 : 3 9 : 01 09 : 33 : 46 : 09 Substitutes for Asbestos." Do you see that, sir? A Not very well. Q Okay. Well, that's about as good as I can get on that screen right now. A I can see twelve or so lines up there and I see some words, but if I am going to read it, I am going to have to get up right next to it. Q Why didn't I read it to you, perhaps that will help. It says, "At the annual meeting in June this committee was directed to consider a recommendation that the Institute sponsor a research study to determine the possibilities of substitutes for asbestos." Do you recall such a recommendation being made? A I don't recall these things, but if it is in these particular minutes, it must have happened. Q Do you know whether a research study was ever made by the Friction Materials Standards Institute as to whether there were acceptable substitutes for asbestos? A No. This is -- this is one, probably one of my less contributing members trying to get the other members to do his research for him. So I -- P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 09 : 33 53 : 27 09 : 33 57 : 13 09: 34 00: 24 09 : 34 03 : 01 09 : 34 07 : 10 09 : 34 10 : 18 09 : 34 15 : 00 09: 34 l 7 22 09: 34 l 8 l 2 09 : 34 : 20 : 1 8 09 : 34 : 20: 18 09 : 34 : 24: 21 34 26: 22 09 : 34 2 9 : 21 09: 34 33 : 27 09 : 34 38 : 03 09 : 34 40 : 27 09 : 34 44: 01 09 : 34 46: 13 09: 34 53: 07 09: 35 02 : 03 09: 35 02 : 03 09: 35 : 02 : 21 0 9: 35 : 05 : 15 all these things come up in meetings. Each guy goes and says, "I want this, I want that, I want something." I try to go and put the thing in to some kind of what did they say. So this is one guy wanted it. We have no -- we had no research facilities to go and do it with. This is like what I refer to a committee, okay? This is referred to the committee. Q The Asbestos Study Committee? A Yes. Q And that was composed of individuals who were members of the Institute? A That is correct. Q Okay. Do you recall any discussion as to whether or not the members expressed a desire to not do such research? A I am sure some of them did, because people were doing their own research. There really was no joint research by the FMSI. Abex would do their research. Bendix would do theirs. GM would do theirs. Raybestos would do theirs, and whatnot. But nobody was going to go and tell the other guy how to make the competitor's brake lining. This here was some by some person, one P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 09 : 35 : 0 9: 13 09 : 35 : 12 : 27 09 : 35 1 3 : 27 09 : 35 15 : 28 09 : 35 22 : 06 09: 35 25: 18 09 : 35 : 27 : 24 09: 35 : 28: 16 09 : 35 : 28: 22 09 : 35 : 3 0 : 0 3 09 : 35 : 30 : 21 09 : 35 : 33 : 09 (tl!~jiW 3 5 : 3 6 : l 0 09 : 35 36 : l 6 0 9 : 35 41 : 1 5 09 : 35 44 15 09: 35 : 46 :16 09 : 35 : 50 : 00 09 : 35 : 52 :19 09 : 35 53 : 16 09: 35 59: 27 09: 36 02: 15 09:36 05:24 09 : 36 08 : 24 person or two people saying, "Somebody do my research for me." Q So if I understand what you are saying during this time frame, the various companies who make brakes and clutches were doing their own research, but they weren't sharing their findings with each other? A No. Q I am correct about that? A Generally, yes. Q And the reason for that was because they didn't want to give their competitors an edge; correct? A Well, that's the private enterprise system. They are outgoing to develop their own products, yes. I say that's the private enterprise system. Why should I if I developed some kind of a brake lining, go and give it to my competitor? Q And the argument goes that if company X develops a non-asbestos brake lining, they will be able to capture that market share? A I don't know whether -- they will try to capture that market share. I don't know that they P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 1<":rll.7.::l rrl w nri c:: l .::lnP - P.u Mr nPT.llr".::l 09 36 10 : 22 09 36 16: 15 09 36 21 09 09 :36 24 03 09: 36: 25: 06 09 : 36 : 30 : 12 09 : 36 : 3l 24 09 : 36 : 34 09 09 : 36 : 3 9 : 13 09 36 : 4 3 : 0 4 09 36 47 : 0 6 09 : 36 : 49: 21 I ~ ~' 09 36 : 52: 1 6 36 54 27 09 : 36 58 12 09 : 37 01 07 09 : 37 03 : 1 5 09 : 37 06 : 18 09 : 37 0 9 : 27 0 9 : 37 11 : 28 09 : 37 14 : 24 09 : 37 17 : 27 09 : 37 1 9 : 16 09 : 37 : 2 4: 10 will be able to. I'm not that smart. This thing here, as I said, the idea of research, we had no research facilities. Anything was done was done by the individual members. Q The FMSI acted as a clearinghouse of information though, didn't it? A Didn't clear this kind of information. We cleared information on product dimensions. These were the so-called data books which go and tell you what size went on the 1982 Camara, or what size went on a '77 Barracuda, or something like that, give you gel patterns and something like that. That's the only so-called joint research. That kind of information got fed in and we assembled these books from it. But nothing about product material or product performance. Q The FMSI collected information on more than just product dimensions and the data about those products though, didn't it? A Give me an illustration, please. Q The FMSI collected information about the hazards of asbestos? A No, I don't -- we -- we funneled to our members information that either came from OSHA or P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 ---------"- Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 (J ~ : 3 7 : 2 8 0 9 09 : 37 : 31 27 09 : 37 : 35 : 1 9 09 : 37 3 9: 07 09 : 37 42 : 2 4 09 : 37 42 : 24 09 : 37 46 : 15 09 : 37 49 : 16 09: 37 51 18 09 : 37 : 52 : 2 4 09 : 37 : 56 : 2 4 09 : 37 59: l 2 c{(!F/ 3 8 0 1 : 2 2 09: 38 04 07 09 : 38 06 : 15 09: 38 08 : 04 09: 38 : 17 : 03 09 : 38 : 1 9: 18 09 : 38: 23 : 10 09 38 : 27 : 03 0 9 38 : 2 9 : 21 09 38 : 37 : 1 0 0 9 : 38 43 : 03 09 : 38 45 : 09 came from some kind of an EPA or came from some kind of a meeting or a symposium. We would try to send the information down to our members if it affected them, but we did no research on the thing. Q The FMSI collected and disseminated information about the level of exposure out in the field, didn't it? A Yes, I guess we did a few times. Q And the FMSI collected information about whether or not its members were warning of the hazards of asbestos in compliance with OSHA? A We did that on one condition, yeah, we did that one time, one time that I know of. I can't remember doing it more than once. Q As Plaintiff's Exhibit 20, and this will be one of about three documents that I don't have with me, but I will print off during our lunch break, I'm going to mark the October 24th, 1975 minutes of the meeting of the Asbestos Study Committee, and I'm going to cite you to the third page. A And what does it say? Q Specifically the section that says that P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 09 : 38 48 01 09: 38 51 15 09: 38 55: 24 09 : 38 5 9 : 01 09 : 3 9 : 02 : 21 09 : 39 : 05 : l 8 09 : 39 : 08 : 15 09 : 39 : 1 0 : 01 09 : 39 : 14 24 09: 39:18 10 09 : 39 : 2 1: 21 09: 39 : 25:15 : 39 : 2 5 : 27 09 : 39 : 28: 03 09: 39 28 :24 09 : 3 9 35 : 12 09 : 39: 40 : 00 09 : 39: 43 : 27 09 : 39 : 46 : l 8 09 : 39: 49: l 3 09 : 39 : 53 : 04 09 : 39: 55 : 12 09 : 39: 59 :10 09 : 40 : 0 2 : 03 one of the fills, one of the problems in the field is that customers will often groove, chamfer or provide extra drilling. It is during these subsequent operations that asbestos concentrations may be raised to levels above that allowable. Do you recall confronting that issue in 1975 or at least in the mid-'70s? A Well, this, these were the conditions under which brake lining concentrations could produce concentrations of asbestos above the allowable levels. Whatever it says there is what it was. Q Okay. Do you recall what the allowable level was at that time? A Oh, no. But it started off about two fibers per cc, and five fibers per cc, and ten, twelve fibers per cc, and at different times there were different levels. You have to go through OSHA. OSHA carne down, OSHA would set the first one, and I don't know, we would inform our members what the level was at that time. Then two years later they might drop the level to five fibers per cc, and then they might drop it further. But as they progressed along, we forwarded the P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 ----,------------------------~-------------------------- H'.r1 -"'~ rr1 W nri c:: l -"''nt=> - l=l." Mr nt=>T 11r-"'' 09: 40 : 04: 24 0 9 : 40 : 06 : 22 09 : 40 l 2 : 06 09 : 40 l 6 : l 9 09 : 40 l 9 : 27 09: 40 24 : l 8 09: 40 : 25:0l 09: 40 : 27 l 6 09: 40 : 3l 03 09: 40 : 34: 03 09: 40 : 35 : 27 09: 40 : 36: 27 40 : 42 : 18 09 : 40 : 44 : 18 0 9 : 40 : 47 : 1 8 09 : 40 49: 07 09 : 40 53: 2l 09 : 41 : 01 : 21 09 : 41 : 0 7 : 0 6 0 9 : 41 : 1 0 : 2 4 09 : 41 15 : 07 0 9 : 41 1 5 : 07 09 : 41 16 : 09 09: 4l 26 : 06 information to our members. Q On page 5 of that, sir, it talks about a .5 fiber per cc level, and I think perhaps at that time that was a at least a level that was being kicked around as a possible future downward revision, do you remember that? A I believe that is so, yeah. Q And the FMSI through its members and through the Asbestos Study Committee attempted to determine the feasibility of meeting that standard; did it not? A The FMSI, again, had no research facility, had no ability to go and check these fibers. Individual members may have checked it, that's the best that I can say. Q Do you recall as this document says, Mr. Drislane, that the FMSI and its members thought that in order to possibly comply with the .5 fiber per cc limit that they may have to use materials that would cost ten times as much as asbestos? MR. HARKINS: I object to the form of the question because that is not what the document says. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 09 : 4l :26 : 06 MR. DeLUCA: Well let's look at what 09 41 : 2 6 : 06 the document says. 0 9 4 l 2 6 : 0 7 BY MR. DeLUCA: 09 : 41 26 : 06 09:41:26:06 Q The friction materials industry does not know whether the .5 fiber per cc limit can be 09:41:28:16 reached, perhaps it will be necessary to go to the 0 9 : 4 1 : 3 1 0 7 materials with the material costs ten times that 0 9 : 4 1 : 3 4 1 2 of asbestos in order to get the workplace down to 0 9 : 4 1 : 3 6 : 2 4 the proposed level. Do you remember that, 09 : 41 : 3 8 : 06 Mr. Drislane? 09:41:39:06 A No. 09 : 41 : 3 9: 28 Q Do you know what study or studies were 41:45:15 referenced in coming up with that ten times 0 9 : 4 1 5 2 : 0 9 multiplier? 09 : 41 52 : 21 A I don't recall what we are talking about 0 9 : 4 1 5 5 : 0 9 so I don't recall what you are asking about now. 09 : 41 : 57 : 12 Q Do you recall back in that time frame 0 9 : 4 2 : 0 0 : 2 7 that substitutes were much more expensive than 09 42 : 05 : 27 asbestos? 09 42 : 05 : 27 09:42:12:09 A No. substitutes. I didn't know anything about the Now if you are talking sintered 0 9 : 4 2 : 1 6 : 0 6 metal brake linings and all that stuff, there was 0 9 : 4 2 1 8 : 0 9 a performance problem there. These other 0 9 : 4 2 2 0 : 1 0 materials were some kind of fiber that they were P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 ------------------------------------------------------ J:;'.rl,.r::::o rrl W _nr_i c;, 1 ::::oT"'Io ~ .Mr _np T.11 1'.:::~ 09 : 42 23 : 01 09 : 42 26 : 19 0 9 : 42 2 9 : 07 09 : 42 32 : 04 09 : 42 : 35 : 04 09 : 42 35 : 18 09: 42 38 : 1 9 0 9 : 42 42 : 13 0 9 : 42 43 : 0 6 09 : 42 : 44: 0 9 09 : 42 : 48 : 0 3 09 : 42 48 12 42 48 15 09 : 42 : 51: 12 09 : 42 : 5 4: 09 09 : 42 : 56 : 0 9 09 : 42 : 57 : 15 0 9 : 43 0 0 : 24 09: 43 04 01 09 : 43 : 08 : 0 0 09 : 43 : 09: 27 0 9 : 43 12 : 12 09 : 43 l 2 : 27 0 9 : 43 1 6 : 06 going to use to replace asbestos. I know nothing about them. These were people guarded these things as a secret. They didn't tell me what it was. They weren't going to go and tell other people. I don't know. Q Sir, just for the record, I think we talked about this last time, you recorded these minutes; did you not? A Yes, I did. Q So what we are looking at is your work product? A That's correct. Q And you were at the meeting when these things were being discussed and you recorded it diligently and accurately? A As best I could, yeah. Q In addition to the cost of the raw materials, Mr. Drislane, do you recall any discussions about the cost of providing clean rooms? A I have no idea what the cost of clean rooms, no. Q I am not necessarily asking you about the specific cost, but did you understand that that P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 ------------------------------------------------------ wF'.rlwr~rrl nri~l::=~nt=> Rv Mr nPT.llrrl 09: 43 : 17 27 09: 43 : 21 10 09 43 : 23 : l 2 09 43 : 26 : l 8 09: 43 : 28 27 09 : 43 : 31 : 22 09 : 43 : 3 4 07 09 : 43 37 2 8 09 : 43 40 : 1 8 09 : 43 43 : 1 8 0 9 : 43 46 : 2 7 09: 43 4 9: 24 43 : 54 : 06 09: 43 : 55: 21 09: 43 : 57 27 09 : 44 02 09 09 : 44 05 : 13 09 : 44 09: 06 09 : 44 14 24 09 : 44 17 : 24 09 : 44 : 23 : 24 09 : 44 : 28 : 01 09 : 44 : 28 10 09: 44 : 32 15 would be an additional cost in attempting to comply with the new proposed regulations? A You are trying to condense into five minutes or something some things that happened over ten years time. I can't give you a specific answer. We start off with the thing, the clean rooms didn't come in there until about halfway down when OSHA started going in the eyes of getting a clean room. Excuse me. Q Certainly. A Those were all things that were happening during the hearings that OSHA had and whatnot. I know nothing about them. I reported. Somebody would say something about the clean rooms or something like that we would all be discussing. I tried to put a word on the paper saying these things here. Well I don't see anything there. The 0.5 fibers came at the very end, came down. At the very end they came to nothing, no fibers at all. can. I don't understand. I reported as best I That's what I have, okay? You are stuck with it. Q Perhaps you could help me understand this last sentence here. "Without knowing figures P.O. Box 12459 Albany. NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 l<:rlt.r~rrl W n r i c:l ~nP - ?.u Mr nr=>T .1r~ 09 : 44 : 35 : 06 09 : 44 : 3 9 : 21 09 : 44 42 : 07 09 : 44 45 : 06 09: 44 46: 09 09: 44 46 : 09 09 : 44 47 : 18 09 : 44 52 : 12 09 : 44 55 : 16 09 : 44 57 : 03 09 : 45 : 00 : 18 09 : 45 : 03 : 03 q)j~~~:,: 4 5 : 0 5 : 1 0 09 : 45 : 0 9 : 04 09 : 45 : 12 : 0 6 0 9 : 45 : 1 5 : 2 4 09 : 45 : 18 : 0 0 09 : 45 : 2 0 : 0 7 0 9 : 45 : 2 4 15 0 9 : 45 : 2 7 00 09 : 45 : 28 21 09 : 45 32 : 15 09 : 45 36 : 0 6 09 : 45 3 9: 18 perhaps costs were more than double with poorer performance at a time when the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is calling for even higher performance." A Yes. Q What did that mean? A Our industry is not controlled just from the occupational safety area. The brakes are a safety feature on the car, you might understand. People have to push on brakes to go and stop or slow or control their car. You get different materials in there that you have no background on, get fiberglass or something else. You have no idea whether it's going to stand up to fade resistance. Fade resistance is the ability to maintain your friction as temperatures start washing out the brakes. At high temperatures, brakes usually go down, lose friction. They also wear out quickly, some of them do. So National Highway Traffic Safety Administration at the same time this is going on that OSHA and EPA is asking us to go is asking the brake industry to go and give them better hydraulic brake systems and better air brake systems, and they are pushing, P.O. Box 124S9 Albany, NY 12212-24S9 Albany (S IB) 43B-O 126 Troy (SIB) 2B3-S064 Schenectady (SIB) 3SS-9216 Clifton Park (SIB) 3B3-1241 Fax (SIB) 446-0SB2 --------------------------------------------------------------------- 09 : 45 : 42 : 07 09 45 : 46 : 16 09 45 : 4 9: 21 09 45 : 5l : 07 09 : 45 : 56 : 0l 09 : 45 58 : 06 09 : 45 59 : 2 4 09: 46 0l 22 09: 46 04 27 09 : 46 07 l 0 09 46 : 1 0 : 03 09 46 : 12 : 06 46 : 16: 12 09: 46 20 : 28 09: 46 23 : 07 09 : 46 26 : 07 09 : 46 37 : 03 09: 46 40 : 03 09 : 46 43 : l 9 09 : 46 47 l 0 09 : 46 5l 1 9 09 : 46 : 55: 15 09 : 46 : 58 00 09 : 47 : 0 l l 5 they are pushing the limit as far as you can go and get these things. Now they are going to take these materials that use, asbestos, out of the product, how do you do it? Poor performance at a time when the National Traffic Safety Administration is calling for even higher performance. They are calling for higher performance in dot 105 dot 121. Q And in order to meet that proposed asbestos standard, not only were there increased material costs for these fibers that you talk about, like Kevlar or fiberglass or ceramic fibers, but there were costs associated, increased costs associated with the manufacturing process; correct? A Yes, most likely. Q On page 7 it says, "While some of the procedures recommended for handling asbestos and removing the worker from contact with the product may show labor saving results, the actual level of exposure to the remaining workmen from these changes still will be quite high." And correct me if I am wrong, but despite these increased costs for materials and despite the increased cost in P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 ~u Mr Df'>LllC:i=l 09 : 47 03 : 2 4 09 : 47 08 : 2 4 09:47 12:12 09 : 47 1 2 : 21 09 : 47 : 1 6 : 03 09 : 47 : 2 4 25 09:47:27 16 09 : 47 : 3 0 : 25 09 : 47 : 3 4 27 09 : 47 37 27 09 : 47 40 : 21 09 : 47 42 : 28 47 52:06 09 : 47 52 : 06 0 9: 47 54 0 9 09 : 47 57 00 09:47:59:21 09 : 48 : 01 : 12 09 : 48 : 06 : 06 09:48 :10 :25 09:48:13:01 09 : 48 : 15 : 18 09: 48 : 15 : 22 09 : 48 : 33 : 03 the manufacturing setting, it was known in 1975 that people would still be exposed to asbestos; correct? A I am having a little trouble with the sentence. That being such as rather than handling asbestos corning into the factory, they take the asbestos and go directly to the -- rather than putting it into a warehouse and mixing up the bag and tossing the bag in, you are going to have these bags go directly into the manufacturing process, which would cut down, which would cut down on asbestos exposure, which it would. So there was some pluses. Everything isn't negative in this world. The remaining work -- what does that say? The actual level of exposure to the -- Q The remaining workmen from these changes still will be quite high. ,, A Well, that's a -- from the ones who don't get all those improved techniques, it is still going to the same as it was before. They are not changed. That's what it means. It means what it says. Q And another cost involved the wages the companies had to pay their employees to be working P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (SIB) 383-1241 Fax (5 IS) 446-0582 09: 48 : 37 : 21 09 : 48 : 40 : 03 09:48:43:06 09:48:44:22 09:48:47:21 09: 48 : 50 : 09 09: 48 : 53 : 13 09 : 48 : 5 6 : 0 0 09 : 48 : 5 9: 07 09 : 49 : 02 : 12 09: 49: 05 :12 09 : 49: 06: 04 : 49 : 09: 25 09 : 49 :14: 03 09: 49 :16:1 0 09: 49:19: 28 09 : 49 : 22 : 10 09 : 49: 24: 22 09 : 49: 27 : 28 09 : 49: 31 : 03 09 : 49 : 33: 24 09 : 49 : 36: 15 09 : 49 : 38:1 9 09: 49 : 42 : 27 around asbestos and particularly if they had to reassign them to other jobs as a result of their cumulative exposure; correct? A I know nothing about this. Q Okay. It says that there are requirements in the proposed standard for worker reassignment if many employees are moved to lesser and lesser duties maintaining the same premium pay that they had received for working with asbestos products, there will be a negative productivity result. Do you remember that discussion? A Not really. Some these members are from a bunch of competing firms, and they -- one guy could have mentioned this thing here, so I figured he was mentioning it so I try to put it into the minutes, but I don't know what he is necessarily talking about or specifically what is going on. I happen to know other things but I did work for one time for a brake lining manufacturer, but what these people are talking about, I don't necessarily know what they are talking about. I am trying my best to report what they said. Q As Exhibit 21 I am going to mark Bulletin Number 551B regarding proposed amendments to the P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-24S9 Albany (SIB) 43B-O 126 Troy (SIB) 2B3-S064 Schenectady (SIB) 3SS-9216 Clifton Park (SIB) 3B3-1241 Fax (SIB) 446-0SB2 "J;'.rh.1::~rrl W n r i c:::l ::~nt=:- - P.u Mr nt=:-T.nr::~ 09:49:47:15 09:49:53:09 09:49:58:15 09 :50 : 02 : 09 09: 50 : 05: 15 09:50 :08: 03 09: 50 :13 : 00 09: 50 :16:12 09 : 50 :16: 24 09 : 50 : 28 : 18 09 : 50 : 31 : 04 09 : 50 : 34: 12 09 : 50 : 42 : 21 09:50:44:24 09 : 50 : 47 : 13 09 : 50 : 48 : 06 09 : 50 : 49: 15 09 : 50 : 52: 07 09 : 50 : 55: 12 09: 50: 59: 09 09 : 51 : 0 4 : 16 09: 51 : 06: 25 09: 51 : 09 : 15 OSHA standard dated October 30th, 1975. And let me by way of background ask you, sir, in the course and scope of your employment with the FMSI, did you frequently send bulletins to your members? A I did send bulletins to my members, yes. Q And for what reasons generally would you issue a bulletin as opposed to sending a letter to a member? A Well, a letter had to be some kind of a thing that was directly to that particular person, but the bulletin was of general interest to the people who were involved with asbestos. That's my criteria. I didn't have any rules here. Q Did most of the bulletins pertain to matters that would be of interest to all members as opposed -A Generally speaking. Q Did most of them pertain to asbestos? A Most of my bulletins, no. They referred to automotive braking standards, B3 regulations, Automotive Data Book, a new book was going to be published. The bulletin would be put out anything that was of general interest to the members. And there were, I say, for every so-called asbestos P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Rv Mr DPT.!JC'rt 09 : 5l l 2 : 2l 09 : 5l l 5 : 0l 09 : 5l : 6 : 1 6 09 : 51 : 1 9 : 0 6 09 : 5l : 23: 28 09 : 51 : 28 : 09 09 : 51 : 31 01 09 : 51 : 3 4 28 09 : 51 37 : 22 09 : 51 40 : 13 09 : 51 43 : 10 09 : 51 45 : 27 .. 5 1 4 9 : 1 9 09 :5l 52 : 27 09 : 51 : 5 6 : 1 5 09 : 51 59: 1 8 09 : 52 01 : 0l 09 : 52 : 0 4 : 04 09: 52 : 06 : 25 0 9 : 52 : 0 9: 0 9 09 : 52 12 : 25 0 9 : 52 l 5 : 0 3 09 : 52 17 : 1 9 09 : 52 20 : 1 6 run, there might have been eight or nine others that were sent out. Q I would like to ask you about some of the things you wrote in Bulletin 551B. I think that you discussed costs that would be incurred in complying with those proposed OSHA regulations, and I think you went on to say that as regards the cost to consumers and society in general, the industry does not know what can be done if it is necessary to remove asbestos from brake lining. The industry could be subject to five to ten years of serious dislocation. In addition to the problem with the OSHA standards, it appear evident cost cannot be quantified at this time. What did you mean by five to ten years of serious dislocation? A If people had to get along, I'm not talking just the large manufacturers, but the small manufacturers too, all the manufacturers, had to give up their main ingredient, which was asbestos in the friction materials, they are going to have one hell of a job trying to get substitutes for it. So it is going to be five years. And I would imagine history looking back P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 u9:52 : 23 : 18 09 :52 :26 : 27 09:52 : 29: 25 09:52 : 32: 13 09 : 52 : 35 : 03 09:52 :37 : 21 09:52 :42: 03 09:52: 46: 00 09:52:48:01 09 : 52 : 51: 21 09 : 52 : 54: 18 09 : 52 : 58 : 06 ' :53 :02 :00 09 : 53 : 03 :19 09 :53 : 07 :10 09 : 53 : 10 : 24 09: 53 :14 : 00 09 : 53 : 16 : 1 8 09 : 53 : 1 9 : 1 0 09: 53 :23 : 21 09:53 :28 :06 09 : 53 : 30 :19 09 :53 :33 :09 09 : 53 : 36 : 09 it took more than five years for them to get straightened out to get into the new materials. I think what they have done is they have gotten rid of some -- gotten rid of the asbestos. I think asbestos is still in the products when I was in the industry. They did that, number one, by the semi-metallic brake disk pads. They went to a different design on the brake pads. That changed a lot of things, a lot of tooling involved in getting over to disk pads. Also, the drum brakes stayed some kind of -- for a while, they stayed with some kind of and organic or subasbestos substitute. They had to tool these things. They had to make sure that they were -- let's say there was some problem with fiberglass. I don't know. You want to breathe fiberglass for a while. I mean, maybe there is a problem there. All those things had to be hatched out before you could go and say we have got our new, our new production in place. Does not know what could be done or remove asbestos from brake linings because of all the problems of getting new products developed. There was a lot of money and a lot of cost going into that, a lot of time. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 F.rlw.:=! rrl W Dri ~ l .:=!nP - Rv Mr DPT.llC.::l 09 : 53 37 12 09 : 53 44 06 09 : 53 : 48 : 27 09 : 53 : 59: 07 09 : 53 59: 07 09: 53 59: 07 09: 53 59: 07 09 : 54 01 : 1 9 09:54 04:21 09: 54 07 : 22 09:54 10:24 09 : 54 13 : 25 54 :16 : 07 09 :54: 16 :15 09 : 54 : 18 09 09 : 54 : 22 03 09 : 54 : 22 : 27 09:54:25:10 09 :54 : 28:18 ' ' 0 9 : 5 4 : 3 0 : 0 0 09 : 54 : 31 : 06 09 : 54 : 33 : 1 9 09 : 54 : 36: 03 09 : 54 : 38: 21 Q Was there a concern that because of the increased costs in producing asbestos brake linings in the United States that they would come in from other places, like Canada or Mexico or Latin America? A I don't know. Q When you wrote that the Latin American countries have no limits as regards the effect on employment and competition, the huge capital expenditures required for the U.S. plants may very well export additional jobs. Did that relate to the cost of complying with the law here in the United States? A I don't know. That's what somebody said probably at the meeting. I didn't create that. I reported it. Q And you remember that there were recordkeeping requirements in that OSHA standard; do you not? A Yes, there were records, yes. Q And that would be another cost of complying with the standard that these companies who were making asbestos products would have to keep records on their employees for many years, P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 w n1<' rll.r ;:l r rl r i .Cl l ..::l n .P 09 : 54 40 : 22 09 : 54 43 : 24 09 : 54 46 : 1 5 09: 54 50 : 04 09 : 54 52 : 07 09 : 54 5 4 : 28 09:54 55:28 09 : 54 59: 24 09 : 55 04 12 09 : 55 07 00 09 : 55 : 10 : 01 09 : 55 :13: 09 55 : 2c: 22 09 : 55 : 22 : 10 09 : 55 :27 : 0 6 09 : 55 : 2 9 : 2 8 09 : 55 : 3 1 : 1 5 09 : 55 : 3 5 : 0 9 09 : 55 :3 8 1 2 09 : 55 : 41 1 8 09 : 55 : 43 : 22 09 :55 : 45 : 27 0 9 55 : 48 : 0 4 09 55 : 48 : 21 and they would have to monitor their health by giving them periodic chest x-rays; right? A What you are saying is right, and it's probably the regulations and all that, but I didn't create these things. I just reported on things as I saw them. Q Yeah, I understand, sir, that you didn't create these things, but I want to ask you some questions about your work with the FMSI because this was a big part of your career and you have a lot of information about it, okay? I am not trying to give you a hard time, sir. Fair enough? A It is your money. Keep going. Q Do you remember discussion about the cost involved in monitoring employees to see if they were going to become sick? A I wasn't involved in it. This here these were the plant people at the various member companies. I was having these people come in and get together and trying to make up a report of what was said. As far as knowing the details of the kind of things you are asking questions about, I don't know. Q Exhibit 22, I'm going to mark a memo that P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 ~.rlw::~ rrl W Tlr-i c: l ::~nP P.u Mr 1\oT.,,,-.::~ 0 9 : 56 : 5 4 : 2 4 09 : 56 58 : 18 09 : 57 0 1: 2 4 09 : 57 05 : 1 5 09: 57 08 : 22 09 : 57 0 9: 2 4 0 9 : 57 : 1 2 : 2 8 09 : 57 : 1 2 : 28 09 : 57 20 : 21 09 : 57 24 1 8 0 9: 57 : 27 16 09 : 57 : 30 : 04 ., 5 7 : 4 3 : 0 4 09 : 57 : 46 : 18 09 : 57 : 48 : 21 09 : 57 : 53 : 0 9 0 9 : 57 5 6 : 06 09 : 57 58 : 09 09 : 58 02 : 00 09 : 58 05 : 03 09 : 58 07 : 21 0 9 : 58 : 0 9 : 2 2 09 : 58 : 11 01 .,. 0 9 : 5 8 : 1 1 2 4 you authored dated October 31st, 1977 to the Asbestos Study Committee, and the subject, as you can see here, sir, is membership on the committee and a question on the possibility of product recalls by the Consumer Product Safety Commission, okay? A Yes. Q Do you remember writing and discussing, writing about and discussing the fact that the Consumer Product Safety Commission might potentially ban asbestos in friction materials? A These are the people that are trying to get the rest of the industry to do all their work. Q Who are you speaking of? A This concern was Mr. Comins' concern. Q He was with Auto Friction Corporation? A Auto Friction Corporation. He was apparently trying to get all the rest of the members to go and bail him out if he had some kind of a problem. This here is a red herring. Drop it. It has no meaning. Q What's that, sir? A The Consumer Product Safety Commission, this is somebody talking at a meeting and saying P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 .. ~rlw.::1 rrl W n r i .C:: 1 .::lnP 09: 58 :16 : l 8 0 9 : 58 : 1 9: 28 09: 58 :23: 27 09 : 58 : 26: 27 09 : 58 : 30: 00 09 : 58 33 : 22 09 : 58 36 : l 0 09: 58 :38: 24 09 : 58 : 4l :1 6 09 : 58 44 : 2 4 09 : 58 46 : 28 09 : 58 47 : 09 58 50 : 00 09 : 58 53: 03 09 : 58 : 53: 10 09 : 59: 14 01 09 : 59 : 17 : 0 9 09 : 59 : 22 : 2 4 09 :59 :25 : 07 09 59: 25:22 09 59: 27 27 09 59 : 27 27 0 9: 59 : 31 : 00 09 : 59: 33: 21 that they are liable to ban the stuff. I don't think they ever gave any consideration to banning. I have to put up with all different types of members, screw balls as well as regulars. Q Mr. Comins was concerned that if the Consumer Product Safety Commission would ban asbestos in brakes, then he would be stuck with all of his inventory, do you remember that? A No, I don't remember that. I guess I n~ver paid too much attention to things that he said. Q Do you think that that concern was his alone, or do you think other members had the same concerns? A Let me read this. That is his. That is his concern. Nobody else had that concern. Q Nobody else was concerned that if, if asbestos were banned in brakes, that they would get A By the Consumer Product Safety Commission. Q Well what if it was a different agency that banned asbestos in brakes, was that a concern? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 09 : 59 : 33 : 2l 09: 59: 37 : 0l 09 : 59 : 37 : 15 09 : 59 : 45 : 00 09 : 59 : 48: 0l 09 :59 :50 :15 09 :59 :50 :15 09 :59:52 : 22 10 : 00 : 08 : 00 10 : 00 : 08 : 09 10 : 00 : 13 : 01 10 : 0c:15 : 07 : 00 : 1 9 : 25 10 : 00 :25 :16 10 : 00 : 27 : 24 10 : 00 : 31 : l 8 10 : 00 : 34 :21 10 : 00 : 44 : 00 10 : 00 : 46 : l 8 10 : 00 : 59 : 01 10 : 01 : 06 : 00 10 : 01 : 09 : 06 10:01:12:19 10 : 01 : 15 : 09 A I don't think anybody at that time had thought of it. Q Your memo suggested that his concern was that if they are banned, then all asbestos products in the field would be returned for full credit? A This is Mr. Comins' concern. Q This came up in a number of meetings; did it not? A Mr. Comins was at the meeting, it might of. I don't recall it happening otherwise but -Q As 23, I'm going to mark Bulletin Number 618 dated February 13, 1978. And this was a bulletin that you prepared, and it starts off by saying that there were several items discussed at a recent Asbestos Study Committee meeting which may be of interest to the membership. And then again it addresses the concerns expressed by Mr. Comins. And this suggests that not only was he concerned that a ban on asbestos brakes would require the manufacturers to refund the cost of those products that were in the stream of commerce but they would also have to pay for transportation and other expenses in affecting a recall, do you P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 10 : 01 : 21 : 01 10 : 01 : 21 1 8 10 01 : 27 1 6 10 01 31 : 0 0 10 : 01 3 4 : 1 8 10 : 01 37 : 09 10 : 01 : 40 : 12 10 : 01 : 41 : 2 8 10 : 01 : 5 0 : 0 9 10 : 01 : 5 2 1 5 10 : 01 : 5 4 1 9 10 : 01 : 5 9: 27 02 : 08 : 06 .. 10 : 02 08 : 13 10 : 02 : 20 : 21 10 : 02 : 22 : 22 10 : 02 : 30 : 06 10 : 02 : 34: 12 10 : 02 : 36 : 21 10 : 02 : 48 : 1 9 10 : 02 : 51 21 10: 02 :58 22 10 : 03 : 01 1 9 10 : 03 : 06 : 24 remember that? A You have to put up with different people when you are running an association. I had to put up with the Comins'. So he was all worked up with this. I figured just to throw him a bone, I would send it out to the members his concerns. I was never concerned. I don't believe other people were concerned. But as long as Adrian or Stuart somebody called up and says you haven't done anything about the consumer product, I would always put words on pieces of paper, much to my dis -- I wish I hadn't. You are wasting your time with the Consumer Product Safety Commission, very frankly. OSHA and EPA are really problems. Consumer Product Safety Commission was not. Q Let me -- this is another one where I will provide a hard copy at the break, but as 24, let me mark the minutes of the annual meeting of the FMSI dated June 28th and 29th, 1978. And at that annual meeting Mr. Comins again was concerned about this potential recall. And let me just ask you, Mr. Drislane, regardless of which agency of the federal government may have instituted a recall, there would have been costs that the P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 w,:;'.rl~A'::l rrl n r i c: l ::ln!=> - P." Mr n~=>T llr'::l 10 : 03 : 10:13 l 0 : 03 : 13: 00 10 : 03 :20: 04 l 0 : 03 :22: 06 10 : 03 : 24: 12 10 : 03 : 27 : 27 .10:03:32:24 l 0 : 03 : 35 : 01 10 : 03 : 36 : 27 l 0 : 03 : 40: 24 10 : 03 : 44: 28 10 : 03 : 45 : 21 : 03 : 48: 0 4 10 : 03 : 5 0 : 07 10 : 03 :52: 28 l 0 :03 :53: 27 10 : 03 : 57: l 0 10 :04 :01 : 12 10:04:04:15 l 0 : 04 : 07 03 10:04 :34 09 10 : 04 : 36 : 27 10 : 04 41 : 09 10 : 04 44:12 manufacturers would of had to bear in getting those products back, do you agree with that? A More or less trying to get me to agree that there was a problem here with the Consumer Product Safety Commission and a recall. There never was. If OSHA and EPA or OSHA in particular were talking about a recall, that would be entirely different. I mean, you got to put something that realistic. These are not little tooth ferries. If tooth ferries come down and do this, what are we going to do about our inventory? It is ridiculous. Right away. Read the whole thing. He noted there maybe federal funds available. Stuart was always looking for somebody else to do his work. Q I sense that you don't think highly of him? A Yes, that's correct. I think you are wasting your time, to be honest, on this part here. I don't know whether Adrian and Stuart where they are. If they hear this testimony, they might be upset. MR. KRAUSE: Nah. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 w~rl~.T.::!rrl nr-ic::l.::~np- p_, Mr nPT.lll"'.::l 1 o : o4 : 4 8 : o3 10 : 04 : 48 : 10 10 : 04: 51 :15 10 : 05 : 00 :12 10 : 05 : 04 : 12 10 : 05 : 06 : 22 10 : 05 :11 :18 10 : 05 :13 :24 :1 0 : 0 5 : 1 8 : 2 7 10 : 05 :1 9: 09 10 : 05 : 26 : 28 10 : 05 : 2 9: 03 ,' ':,. : 0 5 : 3 2 : 1 3 10 : 05 :33 : 03 10 : 05 :33 : 03 10 :05:34:15 10 : 05 :35 :18 10 : 05 : 39:18 10 : 05 : 42 : 28 10 : 05 : 46 : 15 10 : 05 : 50 : 1 2 10:05:54:00 10 : 05 : 5 6 : 13 10 : 06 : 00 : 03 BY MR . DeLUCA : Q As 25, let me mark a memo that you authored to the file dated July 17th, 1978. And it begins by saying that on June 30th, 1978, after returning from the Institute's annual membership meeting, I took the day off to recuperate. In the morning I received a phone call from the office concerning an inquiry from a Mr. Manny Lorenco of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. And it says that Mr. Don Steis of Abex had referred him to the Institute. And it says Miss Collins of the office -- was that your assistant at the time? A Yes. Q Relayed? A She was a stenographer. Q -- relayed a question from Mr. Lorenco to the effect as to what are the materials used to replace asbestos in brake linings. And your memo goes on to state that you told him that all material information and formulation data is proprietary. And that goes to what you told me earlier about people not wanting to share their research; correct? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 ,:;:rlw.::~rrl W Dri.c::l.::~nP- P.v Mr DPT.ll(".:=! 10 06 : 00 : 21 10 06 02 : 18 10 06 : 03 : 1 5 10 : 06 04 21 10 : 06 08 09 10: 06 10:15 10 : 06 14 : 25 10 : 06 : 16 : l 2 10 : 06 : 23 : l 5 10 06 : 25 : 24 10 06 : 29:24 10 06 : 2 9: 24 06 : 33: 13 10 : 06 : 3 5 : 00 10 : 06 : 37 l 5 10 : 06 : 41 00 10 : 06 : 4l 0 9 10 : 06 : 45 : 00 10 : 06 : 47 : 12 10 : 06 : 50 : 27 10 : 06 53 :1 8 10 : 06 56 : 18 10 : 06 57 : 2 4 10 : 07 0l : l 2 A Can you point out what line you are on? I can't follow you. Q It's the first line. A Okay. Go ahead. Yes. Q Okay. And did you tell him that at the time, and remember this is in 1978, there were two basic materials being used to replace asbestos, one was steel or steel wool, and the other was a synthetic fiber, such as fiberglass? A Uh-huh. Q Did -A That's what I thought were being used in place. I was trying to give him an answer. Q As it says here, sir, isn't it true that those substitutes cost two to three times as much as asbestos? A I estimated the costs for the metal fiber approach to be two to thee times the asbestos based on a ballpark thing. I have no idea. I was working at FMSI at the time. I had no idea what the material costs were that the members had to pay for cuts. Q You go on to say that fiberglass might be 100 percent more than asbestos? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 ~rlw.::~rrl W Dric:l.::~nP- P.v Mr DPT.ll!"".::l 10 : 07 : 02 : 15 10:07:06:10 10 : 07 : 08 : 21 10:07:08:21 10:07:11 24 10:07:14 28 10 : 07 18 12 10 : 07 1 9: 21 10 : 07 : 20 : 15 10 : 07 : 27 04 10 : 07 : 28 07 10 : 07 : 32 : 28 07:35:19 10 : 07 42 28 10 : 07 46 : 03 10:07 47:24 10 : 07 50 : 28 10 : 07 : 5 4 : 12 10 : 07 : 5 9 : 01 10 : 08 : 00 : 24 10 : 08 : 23 : 0 4 10 : 08 : 25 : 27 10 : 08 : 28: 16 A I -- I don't know where I got it. May be somebody told me it's very, very expensive. I don't know. Q And were you aware that not only as we talked about before that the raw materials cost more, but there were higher processing and fabricating costs? A Most likely. Q You recall these issues being discussed; do you not? A I don't remember Don Steis calling or anything else like that, but I tried to get members call on the phone, I try to give them an answer, and I give off-the-cuff answers, as best I can, I am not skilled in that area. I didn't know what the manufacturers were paying for their materials. They don't come and tell me. I just made my guesses, and that's my guess. Can I get a drink of water some place? Q Do you need to take a break? A No. No. Keep going, get this over with. Q As Exhibit 26, I am going to mark a letter that you wrote to the EPA on May 12th, 1980. And you addressed it to a gentleman named P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 WP.rlwr~rrl Drislane - Rv Mr Dt=>Lnr:r~ 10 08 3 4 : 10 10 08 3 9: 28 10 : 08 42 : 00 10 : 08 43 :10 10 : 08 44 :13 10 : 08 : 49: 00 10 : 09:04: 09 10 : 09: 06 :18 10 : 09: 07 :22 10 : 09 : 0 9:25 10 : 09:11 :12 10: 09:14:18 09 :17 : 22 1 09 :21 : 04 10 : 09 :24: 04 10 : 09:25: 06 10 : 09 :34: 09 10 : 09 : 34: 09 10 : 09: 35 : 21 10 : 09 : 3 8 : 06 10 : 09: 43: 00 l 0 : 09:45: 00 10 : 09 : 52 : 01 10 : 09 : 55 : 0 4 Richard Guimond? A That could be. I don't remember what his name was. Somebody at EPA? Q Yes, sir. A Okay. That was the guy then. I'm sorry, I lost this damn thing here. I wrote a letter to this guy Mr. Guimond, okay. Q Did that follow a meeting you had with the EPA in Washington? A I believe so, yes. Q Do you remember going down to Washington with some other, some of your members of the FMSI to meet with the EPA about their concerns about asbestos and brakes? A I did go down. I did meet Mr. Guimond in Washington. I was with somebody else from the Institute, but I can't remember who, yes. Q Do you recall the nature of that meeting? A I guess it was to find out what they -- I don't really know. Read the letter. Q Do you remember it happening that the EPA had certain questions they wanted answered with regard to the efforts to develop non-asbestos P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 -----~--------------------------- 10 : 09 57 : 16 10 : 10 00 : 06 10 : 10 03 : 21 10 : 10 11 : 0 9 10 : 10 :13: 10 10 : 10 : 15 : 21 10 : 10 : 1 5 : 25 10 : 10 : 18 : 09 1 0 : 1 0 : 2 0 : 1 2 10 : 10 : 21 0 9 10 :10 : 24 07 10 : 10 : 2 5 : 27 10 : 28: 21 10 : 10 : 31 : 21 10 : 10 : 33 : 25 10 : 10 : 35 : 25 10 : 10 : 46 : 0 9 10 : 10 : 50 : 10 10 : 10 : 52 : 21 10 : 10 : 55 : 28 10 : 10 : 5 7 : 1 2 10 : 11 00 : 0 3 10 : 11 02 : 2 4 10 : 11 0 5 : 0 9 brakes and the Institute went down there to meet with them to share information with the EPA? A I didn't go down there to share information specifically with the EPA. I came down there because they wanted to see me, whatever. Q And they had certain questions they wanted answered? A I gather, I believe. Q Do you remember negotiating with them as to what questions the Institute would answer? A No, I don't remember any of this. If you show me what I did, I will believe it then. I don't remember this. I remember meeting Mr. Guimond in Washington. Q And in the attachment to the letter you provided various information to the EPA in response to their question, which is here? A These must have been written questions by Mr. Guimond or something. Q Yes, sir. I believe they were. And you were discussing the cost of moving towards non-asbestos. Do you remember furnishing that type of information to the EPA? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 10 : 11 : 06 : 28 10 :11 :10 : 15 10 : 11 : 35 ; 10 10 ; 11 : 36 : 27 10 :11 : 39: 28 10 : 11 42 : 10 10 : 11 43: 03 10 ; 11 46 : 15 10 : 11 : 49: 06 10 : 11 : 53: 27 10 : 11 : 56: 12 10 ; 12 : 00 : 12 : 12 : 00 : 15 10 : 12 : 0 4 : 12 10 : 12 : 04: 12 10 :12 : 08 : 03 10:12: 10:18 10 :12 11:15 10 : 12 13 :18 10:12 17: 04 10 :12 : 20 : 03 10 : 12 : 23 : 09 10 :12:26: 00 10 :12 :30 :03 A I don't remember any of this thing here. I will have to read the thing to tell you. Well that's --those are the answers. Different manufacturers gave that kind of information to me which I relayed on to Mr. Guimond. Q Some manufacturers told you that it would take four to five years to get a non-asbestos brake that would work, some manufacturers told you it would take three years, and some of the costs that they cited to you were between 250 to 500,000? A Apparently. That's what the letter says there. Q And other people were having less success in developing substitutes and they were incurring costs in the millions? A I don't know that. Does it say that? Q Well, that's what I am wondering. It says the manufacturer who has a product considered commercial, a semi-metallic type states that the overall development period took about eight years from initial research with research and development costs of about two million dollars in P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 Troy (518) 283-51 Schenectady (518) 355-9 Clifton Park (518) 383-1, Fax (518) 446-\ 10 : 12 : 35 : 01 10 :12 : 35 :15 10 : 12 : 37 : 22 10:12: 42 : 22 10:12:46:03 10:12:48:18 10:12 :50:06 10 : 12 : 5 4: 18 10 :13 : 00: 03 10 : 13 : 00: 25 10 : 13 : 02 : 1 9 10 : 13 : 03 : 03 '~ ,; .,: 1 3 : 0 3 : 2 2 10 :13 : 06 : 28 10 :13 : 09: 07 10 :13 :12 : 16 10 :13: 15 : 06 10:13: 18 :12 10:13: 21:18 10:13:24:15 10: 13: 28: 07 10:13: 29:13 10:13: 34:21 10:13:37:24 1969 dollars. A That's what he said, that's what somebody said. That's what I furnished to Mr. Guimond. Might take me out of the equation here because basically these people here are answering Mr. Guimond's questions. Q But those people answered the questions through the FMSI, and the FMSI protected their confidentiality? A Correct, but they wouldn't give the information otherwise. Q Why is that? A They are not going to go and give proprietary information to their customers -- to their competitors, I should say. It is a free enterprise system. We are free to go and protect, we were, to protect our product and we don't have to tell our sales volume, or all that stuff. Q Do you recall providing information to the EPA about what it would cost to retool the manufacturing plants? A Only to the degree that the question there is Mr. Guimonds and the answer as best it came in and I tried to relay those figures down P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 ~ rhr .::~ r rl W n r i .c:::. 1 .::~ n P - R v M r D P_ T, nr- .::~ 10 :13 : 40 : 22 10 :13 : 40 : 22 10 : l 3 : 43: 24 10: l 3 :46: 06 10:13: 49:03 10:13:50: 27 l 0 :l 3 :53:24 10 :13 : 57 : 19 '1 0 : l 4 : 0 0 : 0 3 10 : l 4 : 02 :15 10:14:03:;_6 10: 14 : 05 : 25 (~_,: 1 4 : 0 8 : 2 7 1 ~.::__., 10 : 14 : 11 : 10 10 : 14 : 1 4: 13 10 : 14 : 17 : 04 10 : 14 : 25 : 12 10 : 14 : 28 : 16 10 : 14: 3l : 12 10 : 14 : 34 : 07 10 :14:36:12 10 : 14 : 39: 00 10 : 14 : 40 : 06 10 :14 : 42: 27 there. Q And you told him that there would be capital expenditures required to go to non-asbestos of two to six million dollars per plant and that operating costs would increase from five to ten percent; correct? A That's what it says. Q And these are all costs that you recognized at that time as being necessary to move to non-asbestos? A I didn't recognize them as being. Members who knew more about this. I'm a clerk working down in an office, a one-room office down in Paramus, New Jersey. I don't know this stuff. These were from manufacturers who knew this kind of stuff. I tried to help out the EPA who are regulatory, government regulatory agency. I tried to help them out. I tried to help out giving information to OSHA and to others, to National Highway Traffic Administration, to all the administrations down in Washington, we have tried to go and cooperate with them. Q And when you would furnish information to OSHA, to the EPA, to the National Highway Traffic P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 I8) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 I8) 383-124 I Fax (518) 446-0582 1u: 14: 44: 28 10:14:51:03 10 : 14 : 53: 25 10 : 14 : 53 : 28 10 : 1 4 : 57 : 13 10 : 14 : 59: 24 10 : 15 : 01 : 13 10 : 15 : 03 : 03 c1 0 : 1 5 : 0 5 : 0 7 10 :15 : 07 : 03 10 :15 : 08 : 10 10 : 15 : 10:1 3 ,-'':15:12:25 (" l 0 :15 : l 4 16 10 : 15 : 17 09 10: 15 : 19: 09 l 0 :15 22 : l 3 l 0 : 15 25: 07 l 0 : 15: 28 : l 5 10: 15 : 30 : 22 10: 15 : 31 : 09 10:15: 34:03 10:15:37:09 10 :15 : 39:1 6 Safety Administration, you would give them the information that your members wanted them to have; correct? A Correct. Where else was I going to get what else was I going to get? Q You gave them information that would be to the benefit of industry; didn't you? A No. It was their answer to these questions they had. It wasn't necessarily beneficial to the industry. Q You were the person who put forth the industry position to these agencies? A I relayed the information that the members sent down to me as accurately as I could. Q So you were a conduit from your members to the government on these types of issues? A If you wish to call me a conduit, yeah. Q Do you think your members were always straightforward and truthful with these agencies? A I believe so. Q Do you think that these, that your members when they would provide information, gave these agencies the whole story? A They gave, they answered the questions P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 P.v Mr D_pi.JlC_A 10 :15 : 42: 27 10 :15: 46: 24 10:15:47:09 10 : 15 : 49: l 0 10 :15 : 52: 06 10 :16 :01 :09 10 : 16 : 03: 16 10 : 16 : 06: 01 ,1 0 : 1 6 : 0 9 : 0 0 10 : 16 :11 :15 10:16:29:15 10 :16 : 32:10 16 : 34: 18 10: 16: 36 : 25 10 : 16 : 38 : 01 10 : 17 : 43: 28 10:17:48:16 10:17:52:12 10 : 17 : 57 : 15 10 : 18 : 00 : 25 10 : 18 : 06 : 00 10 : 18 : 06 : 21 10 : 18 : 07 : 07 10 :18 : 13: 18 that were asked. What do you mean, "the whole story"? Q The whole truth? A They gave them all the truth. They answered the questions. If you ask me one question, I'm not going to give you two different answers. I am going to give you the one answer. That's all. I am not required to expound on that and tell you 25,000 other things. Q So if I understand what you're saying, you attempted to answer the questions that were asked but as narrowly as possible? A Not so. I tried to answer the questions that were asked period. Q As 27 -- let me just tell you we will come back to that in a few minutes. As 27, I'm going to mark Bulletin Number 688 that you authored on July 29th, 1980, and I believe that the title of that, as you can see, was National Workshop on Substitutes for Asbestos. Do you recall that? A No. Q This was another bulletin that you sent to your members. Would all members of the FMSI P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 ~rh.r.::l rrl W n r i c:: 1 .::lnP - P.u Mr _DeLnc~ 10 :18 19:15 10 : 18 21 : 0 6 10 : 18 25 : 1 8 10 :18 :28: 24 10 : 18 31 : 0 0 10 : 18 34 0 0 10:18 41 06 10 :18 43 : 12 .1 0 : 1 8 4 6 : 0 3 10 : 18 48 l 8 l 0 : 18 48 l 8 l 0 : 18 50 : 03 . : 1 8 ', ~ '-<' l 0 :18 53 : 27 54 : 07 10:18 55: 28 10: 18 : 57: l 5 10 : 18 58 : l 6 10 : 19 : 03 :12 10 : 19 : 05: 21 l 0 :19: 09: 01 10 :19 : 1l ~0 10 :19 : 14 21 10:19: l 7:15 10 : 19 : 20 : 0l get the bulletins that you issued? A Down at the bottom, if you can bring it down to the bottom, it generally lists the distribution. From that I can tell you who got the copies. Give me the last page of this thing here. Now wait a second. This is minute. What did you show me just there? Those were minutes that you showed just before. That is a bulletin here. Which are we showing me, the minutes or the bulletin? Q We are talking about the bulletin. A Show me the bulletin. the bulletin. Show me the end of Q Let me hand you the hard copy. A Here, down the at bottom it says who gets it right here. Active members, those are the brake lining manufacturers, United States brake lining manufacturers. List C, I don't know what the hell that is. Regional members, those are regional members. Those are foreign members who pay the same as U.S. dues because they are exporting their products. They are using our copyrights for marketing their products in the U.S, but I'm saying those are -- those are foreign P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (SIS) 438-0 126 Troy (SIS) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (SIS) 383-1241 Fax (SIS) 446-0582 10:19:24:07 members. Those are delegates and alternates. And 1 0 : 1 9 : 2 8 : 1 5 I don't know what the active members list C was, 1 0 : 1 9 : 3 0 : 1 9 but I think it is delegates and alternates and 1 0 : 1 9 : 3 4 : 0 9 something else. That generally is the 1 0 : 1 9 : 3 6 : 2 1 distribution. So the members did get it, 1 0 : 1 9 : 3 8 : 2 1 delegates and alternates, regional members, that's 10 :19: 43 : 09 foreign members. 10 :19: 44: 03 Q Okay. Thank you. In this bulletin you 1 0 : 1 9 : 4 6 : 0 3 are talking again about substitutes. Again, the 1 0 : 1 9 : 4 8 : 2 4 theme that we have been talking about so far this 1 0 : 1 9 : 5 2 : 0 3 morning is the cost involved from in going from 1 0 : 1 9 : 5 5 : 0 1 asbestos to non-asbestos, all right? In this (' .< :19:58:09 bulletin you are discussing semi-metallic brake 10 : 20 : 01 : 22 linings? 10 : 20 : 03 : 19 MR. HARKINS: Object to the form of 10 : 20 : 05 : 12 the question. Compound, complex. 1 o : 2 o : o 7 : o 7 BY MR . DeLUCA : 10:2o:o7 :19 Q Did you understand what I was saying? 1o: 20: o9: 12 A Not really. 10 : 20 : 11 : 09 Q Okay. Why don't you take a second and 1 0 : 2 0 : 1 4 : 1 0 look at this bulletin where you are discussing 1 0 : 2 0 : 1 7 : 1 2 semi-metallic brake linings, okay? 10 :20 : 23 : 28 A (The witness is perusing the document.) 1 0 : 2 0 : 2 5 : 0 0 Basically the entire braking system is being P,O, Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 10 : 20 : 41 : 25 10 : 20 : 49: 27 10 : 20 : 51 : 21 10 : 20 : 55: l 8 10 : 20 58 : 12 10 : 21 00 : 27 10 : 21 04: 12 10 : 21 07 : 01 ) 0 : 21 09 : 1 6 10 : 21 1 3 : 18 10 : 21 15: 24 10 : 21 1 9 : 01 21 : 21 : 1 3 10 21 : 2 4 12 10 21 : 2 4 15 10 : 21 2 9: 2 4 10 : 21 30: 13 10 : 21 3 0 : 21 10 21 35 : 24 10 21 37 : 18 10 21 38 : 03 10 : 21 4 0: 22 10 : 21 42 : 0 4 10 : 21 42 : 1 0 redesigned. They are all -- up until 1960, the primarily American cars, American light trucks, and whatnot, had drum brakes. Gradually disk brakes moved in, and when the disk brakes moved in, the disk brakes could be designed, were designed around the semi-metallics. This was before there was even any push on asbestos. This was development. This was product development to go and get better linings, which contrary to what you may feel, that's what the American manufacturers were trying to do, get better, but the package had to go with the disk brake package. Q Let me just ask you some questions, sir. A All right. Q Semi metallic brakes are non-asbestos; correct? A That is correct. Q And semi-metallic brakes were being developed as early as the 1960s? A That is correct. Q Perhaps some companies were making them a little earlier; correct? A That's correct. Q And semi-metallic brakes were more P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 F'.rlw.::lrrl W nric::l::~n.::>- l=l.\ Mr n.::>T r_a 1 \) : 2 1 4 9 : 1 2 10 : 21 50 : 03 10 : 21 5 2 03 10 : 21 : 5 7 09 10 : 21 : 57 : 28 10 : 22 : 03 : 0 4 10 22 : 05 : 1 5 10 : 22 : 07: 28 10 : 22 10: 06 10 : 22 11 : 18 10 : 22:12 : 06 10 : 22 15 : 06 ' 22 17 19 10 : 22 : 21 16 10 : 22 23 : 09 10 : 22 26 : 15 10 : 22 26 : 21 10 : 22 30 : 13 10 : 22 : 33 : 01 10 : 22 : 34 03 10 : 22 : 34 03 10 : 22 : 38 : 01 10 : 22 : 41 21 10 : 22 : 4 4 25 expensive? A Correct. Q Semi-metallic brakes they perform pretty well, didn't they? A After they got some of the bugs out of them, yeah, they performed quite well. When they designed the brake package around them. Now you are getting me into asking questions I don't know the answer to. I -- Q That's fine. A I ran an association. I ran a one-room office. These things are here are being developed at big manufacturers, big people with substantial research places. They were working on the semi-metallics, yes. They are always working on different products. Q And in the '60s most of the brakes that were used on passenger cars were drum brakes; correct? A Yes. Q And just like this last sentence says here, isn't it true, sir, that in order to make semi-metallic drum brakes, it was very expensive? A Couldn't -- do you know what a drum brake P.O. Box 124S9 Albany, NY 12212-24S9 Albany (SIB) 43B-O 126 Troy (SIB) 2B3-S064 Schenectady (SIB) 3SS-9216 Clifton Park (SIB) 3B3-1241 Fax (SIB) 446-0SB2 1u:22 48 : 22 10 : 22 49: 24 10 : 22 : 5 2 : 0 9 10 22 55 : 24 10 : 22 58 : 24 10 : 23 02 : 01 10 : 23 : 04 : 1 8 10 : 23 : 08 : 1 9 10 : 23 : 0 9 : l 5 10 :23 :15 : 03 10 : 23 : 18 :16 10 : 23 : 20 : 27 : ,, : 2 3 : 2 3 : 0 9 10 :23 25: 21 10 : 23 28: 25 10 : 23 31 : 00 10 : 23 : 34: 01 10 :23 : 37 : 09 10 : 23 : 48: 04 10 : 23 : 48: 04 10 : 24 41: 09 10 : 24 45 : 04 10 : 24 48: 07 10 : 24 52 : 04 looks like? Q I think I do, yes. A You can't bend semi-metallic linings like that. Maybe later on. Maybe they can today. I don't know. There was a real problem in adapting semi-metallic-type materials into drum brakes. Q And the problem was that it was very expensive to do that? A Well, you see you keep always coming back to it was very expensive. You are trying to go and say the reason people are doing things is because it cost more. No. When you are developing things, you try to keep costs out, people don't want to be paying four dollars more for the car, four dollars more for a set of brakes. Nobody wants to go and have their car cost $40,000, when last year it cost 8,000. You are trying to keep costs out, yes, you are always trying to go and improve on costs. Q Next page, sir, goes on to say that participant from DuPont recommended the use of Tevlar as a substitute for asbestos, do you remember Tevlar being discussed? A I can remember Tevlar on -- Kevlar or P.O. Box 1.2459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 - 10:24 55:19 10 : 24 59: 07 10 : 25 : 01 : 1 9 10 :25 : 02: 24 10 : 25 : 03 : 00 10 : 25 : 05: 18 10 : 25 : 08 :24 10 : 25 : 09: 27 10:25:12 00 10:25 :17 00 10 : 25 :19:15 10 : 25 : 21 : 27 : 25 : 25: 25 10 25 : 26 :1 9 10 : 25 :30 :12 10 :25 31: 24 10 :25 : 33:25 10 : 25 : 3 6 : 27 10 : 25 : 3 9:16 10 :25 40 :00 10: 25 44: 09 10:25:47:24 10 : 25 : 49: 27 10 : 25 : 52 : 1 9 something. Is it Kevlar on Tevlar? Q You know, I have heard have Kevlar. I think maybe that's what it -A I don't know. Q But nonetheless, do you recall the discussion that that particular potential substitute was very expensive? A I don't recall this, but it's in the minutes there so somebody must have said that. I don't know that. Somebody must have said that. Q Do you recall a discussion of something called Wollastonite? A Yes, I recall the name. Q That was an inorganic fiber that was used in place of asbestos? A It was some kind of a fiber which apparently they were trying to use it as an asbestos substitute. I don't think it went any place. Q It was used on Mercedes, Audi and Porche? A Those are clutch facings now. I don't know much about clutch facings. Q Do you know whether any of the domestic brake manufacturers considered Kevlar or P. 0. Box 124S9 Albany, NY 12212-24S9 Albany (S18) 438-0 126 Troy (S 18) 283-S064 Schenectady (SIB) JSS-9216 Clifton Park (SIB) 383-1241 Fax (S18) 446-0S82 ,:;'.r'I[.J.::i rr'l W n r i c:: 1 .::~n~=> - P.u Mr n~=>T r.::~ 10 :25 : 55 : 04 10 :25 :57 : 28 10 : 26 : 00: 04 10 : 26 : 03 : 15 10 : 26 : 36 :16 10 : 26 : 42 : 09 10 : 26 : 46 : 06 10 : 26 : 48 : 03 '1 0 : 2 6 : 4 8 : 2 8 10 : 26 :51 :18 10 : 26 : 54: 21 10 : 26 : 56 : 07 ' '.: :' : 2 6 : 5 9 : 1 2 10 : 27 : 02 : 28 10 : 27 : 06 :18 10:27:10:09 10 : 27 :10 : 09 10:27:12:19 10 : 27 :13 :1 9 10 : 27 : 1 6 : 1 9 10 : 27 : 1 9 : 13 10:27 :22 :18 10 : 27 : 25 : 06 10 : 27 : 26: 24 Wollastonite as a substitute? A They may have worked on it. I have no idea what they do in their own factories. Q And then, sir, did you attach a table to this bulletin where you actually tallied the costs of substitutes with respect to what asbestos cost? A Somebody gave me that. I didn't develop that. Q Okay. Nonetheless, you read it and you typed it up, and you thought it was useful to disseminate to your members; did you not? A I didn't give it that thorough. Somebody probably wanted to go and wrote it up, so I said make them feel good and I'll put it in the report. I didn't digest the thing or think about it or anything. Q And does this chart that you put in the bulletin A If you brought this thing from out in the cold, I would say I never saw that chart before in my life. Now you are telling me it is in my minutes, so I obviously saw it before in my life. I don't know anything about it. Must have been that guy from some place that was here. What was P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 A" Mr n~">T.11r-;=~ 0 : 27 : 30 : 10 0 : 27 : 33 : 06 L0 : 27 3 7 : 0 4 10 : 27 39 : 0 6 10 : 27 4 2: 2l l 0 : 27 47 : 0 6 10 : 27 48 : 0 4 10 : 27 : 51 0 6 10 : 27 : 52 27 10 : 27 : 5 4 : 1 9 10 : 27 55 : 1 9 10 : 27 56 : 0 9 : 27 59 : 0 3 10 : 28 : 00 : 18 10 : 28 : 0 3 : 25 l 0 : 28 05 : l 0 10 : 28 07 : 2 8 10 : 28 : 09: 10 10 : 28 : 1 2: 1 2 l 0 : 28 : 13 : 03 10 : 28 : 1 8 : 1 9 10 : 28 : 22 12 10 : 28 : 24 09 10 : 28 : 25 : 16 the company the guy? DuPont. Q Do you remember discussion of these various potential substitutes, fibrous glass, mineral wool, titanate fibers, graphite, Wollastonite, cotton and Aramid fibers? A No, I don't recall at all. Q Do you know what Aramid fibers are? A No. Q You wouldn't know if they were used today, would you? A No idea. Q You agree all these substitutes are much more expensive than asbestos? A Well, from the chart there it indicates that they are. Q It says here -- is it cermets? A That's what it says there. Q Cost three to five times as much as asbestos friction materials? A Those are ceramic metallic, cermet, what they all a ceramic metallic. Q Okay. And they were three to five times as much as asbestos? A Yes, but you couldn't use them. You P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 u:28:27:24 .0 : 28 : 3 0 : 0 1 l0:28 :36:18 10:28:39:15 10:28:43:24 10:28:49:09 10:28:53:12 10 : 28 : 54: 07 10:29:07:13 10 :29:11 : 09 10 : 29: 24: 21 10 : 29: 33: 03 , - : 29:38: 12 10 : 29 : 40 : 0 9 10 : 29: 43: 04 10:29: 46: 06 10:29: 49:09 10 : 29: 52 : 09 10 :29 : 59: 03 10 : 30 : 03 : 22 10 : 30: 06 : 21 10 : 30 : 11 : 00 10 : 30 :15: 27 10 : 30 : 21 : 16 couldn't use them where you used asbestos products. I am answering your questions, but they are ridiculous. You couldn't get them to work on an automotive brake. Used in heavy-duty aircraft where the landings are all, you know, 110 or 120 miles an hour, and the brakes tend to burn up if they were cheaper. Q As Exhibit 28 I am going to mark the minutes of the annual membership meeting of the FMSI dated June 15 and 16th, 1983. And I think that this may -- some of these paragraphs in here may concern your friend, Mr. Comins. A This will be interesting. Q It starts off by saying under "Other Business", The first item under this part of the agenda is a proposal that the Institute go on record as indicating that its members are willing to stop the manufacture of asbestos-containing brake linings. Such action would be dependent on parallel action to discontinue the import of asbestos-containing brake linings." And then it goes on to further discuss it. Do you recall a proposal that someone made to petition the government or to agree to stop making asbestos? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0.582 1u:30 : 26 : 00 10 : 30 : 29: 07 10:30:36:13 10 :30 :39:13 10 : 30 : 42 : 1 5 10 : 30 : 44: 06 10 : 30 : 49 :15 10 : 30 : 52 : 07 10 : 30 : 54 : 00 10 : 30 : 58 : 03 10:30:59:16 10 : 31 : 02 : 27 '':31:03:15 10:31:06:01 10 : 31 : 0 8: 0 6 10 : 31 : 11 : 01 10 : 31 : 13 : 22 10 : 31 : 17 : 03 10 : 31 1 9: 16 10 : 31 : 25 : 0 4 10 : 31 : 2 5 : 07 10 : 31 : 27: 15 10 : 31 : 28 : 21 10 : 31 : 32 : 00 A It is so farfetched, it has got to be Mr. Comins. You are -- this is baloney. I filled it in there because he paid his dues, I guess, that year. Q It goes on to say that it was suggested that the Institute as a group would indicate that its members would be willing to discontinue the manufacture of asbestos-containing brake linings, and it says whether clutch facings and all friction materials containing asbestos would be included was not decided. Do you remember that being brought up? A It is so ridiculous, yes. Q Okay. A It never went beyond Mr. Comins. It got into the paper there. That kept Mr. Comins happy. Q Why didn't -- why was Mr. Comins the only one who felt that this was a good idea? A I didn't go around and analyze all these other people. Q Why do you think that he was the only one that had this position? A Because he needed analysis. Q I'm sorry. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 F:rlw:::lrrl w nri<::;l:::lnP- Rv Mr DPT,llr':::l 10 : 31 : 33 : 22 10 : 31 : 35 : 06 10:31:48:00 10:31:52:09 l 0 : 31 : 56 : 06 l 0 : 32 : 05 : 22 10 : 32 : 05 : 22 l 0 : 32 : 05: 22 :1 0 : 3 2 : 0 5 : 2 2 10 : 32 : 06 :06 10 : 32 : 08 : 22 l 0 : 32 : 12 : 21 "-:32:15:18 10 : 32 : 19: 24 10 : 32 : 24: 01 10:32:27:10 10 : 32 : 2 9: 1 9 10 : 32 : 32: 1 8 10 : 32 : 35 : 12 10 : 32 : 40 : 00 10 : 32: 42:15 10 : 32 : 42: 15 10 : 32 : 46 : 07 10 : 32 : 47 : l 9 A He is a bit strange. Q And then it was -- it goes on to say that that if the FMSI and its members would do this, they would have to be sure that the government would ban the import of asbestos brakes made somewhere else. Do you remember that being an issue? A I'm sorry, yes. This is so ridiculous, I don't know why you are asking these questions. This is Mr. Comins. Read the thing. It was suggested. We never did anything, did we? We never did anything. Read it. Q Sir, I know that you never did anything. But I have to ask these questions. My questions really are why you didn't do anything? A Do you see what he is saying there? We are going to -- we are going to come out and discontinue the manufacture of asbestos bearing. We are just going to do that. It is so unreasonable that normal people would see through it. Q Do you remember what Mr. Comins said in defense of this proposal? A I have no idea. I didn't listen too much P.O. Box 12459 Albany. NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 ~ rl ;.r :::~ r rl 1N n r i c:: l :::~ n ,:::. - 'P. u M r n PT. 11 r ~. 10 :32 : 50 :00 l 0 : 32 : 50: 24 l 0 :32 :53 : l 2 10: 32: 55 : 16 10 : 32 : 5 6 : 10 10 : 32 :5 9 : 06 10 : 33 : 03 : 07 10 : 33 : 05 : 22 l 0 :33 : 08 : 22 l 0 :33 :12: l 0 l 0 :33 :13: l 9 10 : 33 :17 : 07 . ':33:18:27 10 : 33: 24 : 09 10 :33: 26 :09 10 : 33 : 28 :13 10 : 33 : 32 : 0 6 10 : 33 : 3 4 : 0 6 10:33:37:21 10 :33 :37 : 28 10:33:42:24 10 : 33 : 46 : 27 10 : 33 : 53 : 06 10 : 33 : 54 : l 2 to Mr. Comins. Q Well, you listened enough to him that you put a paragraph in your minutes here? A I did. I'm sorry I did. Q Well let's look and see what he said. It says, "Mr. Comins stated that his rationale behind banning the manufacture of asbestos friction products would be an unsolicited ban on the sale of these products would involve a considerable inventory problem." Do you see that? A I see it. Q Okay. In other words, if the government bans them, he again is stuck with his inventory of asbestos brakes, do you understand that? A I don't really understand it, no. Q Okay. Whereas if a ban is proposed by the membership, they would have the chance to at least liquidate that inventory, do you understand that? A I don't know why I have to understand things that Mr. Comins said. I put this thing here. I'm sorry I put it in. Did I retroactively delete it? Q No, sir. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 14.LIANCE Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 --- REPORTING SERVICE, LLC Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 --------------"-------------------------------------------------------------~F:~~(~5~18~):44:6:-0:58:2_ .u : 33 : 5 4 : l 9 L0:33:59:18 10 : 34 : 02 : l 8 10:34:05:18 10:34:07:04 10:34:10:24 10:34:11:27 10:34:13:18 1 o:3 4 : 1 3 : 2 2 1 o: 3 4 , 13 : 2 1 1o, 34 , 1 9 , 25 10:34:21:04 :34:23: 03 0:34:24:18 1 o: 3 4 : 2 5 : z5 10:34:25:24 10 : 34 : 2 9: 06 10:34:33:04 10:34:35:19 10 : 34 :38 : 1 8 10 : 34: 40 :27 10:34:44:03 10:34:44:06 10 : 34: 53 :09 A It is silly. Anybody that thinks it isn't silly has got a problem themselves. Q If the ban were to be on the sale of materials, considerable losses could develop in attempting to dispose of the inventory before the effective day. MR. HARKINS: Is there a question on the record? BY MR . DeLUCA : Q Do you see that? A If the ban MR. HARKINS: He wants to know if you see that. Tell him. THE WITNESS: I have seen it. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q Do you understand that to mean that by proposing a ban that at least Mr. Comins was suggesting it would be in the best financial interest of the friction materials industry, it certainly would be better than what would happen to them if the government banned asbestos, do you understand that? A I am having great difficulty with this entire line of questioning. What am I supposed to P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (S I8) 355-92 I6 Clifton Park (5 I8) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 l l) : 3 4 : 5 7 : 0 4 10 : 35 : 0 3: 06 10 : 35 : 04 : 06 10 : 35 : 08 : l 2 10 : 35 : 10: 24 10 : 35 : l 0 : 24 10 : 35 : 11 : 18 10 : 35 : 11 18 10:35:44 01 10 : 35 : 46: 25 10:35:48:15 10 : 35 : 48 : 22 10 : 36 : 00 : 15 10 : 36 : 0 2 04 10: 36: 07 03 10 : 36 : 09: 09 10 : 36 : 12 : 01 10 : 36 : 17 : 00 10 : 36 : 20 : 07 10 : 36 : 23 : 06 10 : 36 : 24 09 10 : 36 : 27 12 10 : 36 : 30 : 07 say? Rephrase your question, if you would, please. Q Sir, I don't care to rephrase it but I will ask the court reporter to read it back to you. A All right. (The Reporter read back the requested portion.) THE WITNESS: Can I give an answer? No. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q Then it says, "As some members are already non-asbestos and others are planning the discontinuance of asbestos friction products," remember this is 1983, "Mr. Comins stated that it would be positive move on the part of the Institute to go on record in favor of a ban on the manufacture of asbestos friction products by a certain effective day." You obviously didn't agree with that? You didn't think that was a positive move; correct? A I don't see where my opinion has any bearing on this whole thing. Look, I don't want to keep on belaboring this damn thing, but I P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (SIB) 446-0582 u: 36 : 3 3 : 0 9 -0 : 36 : 3 6 : 0 6 L0 : 3 6 : 4 o: o9 10 : 36 : 43 : 25 10:36:47:21 10 :36 : 50: 28 10 : 36 : 54 :19 10 : 37 : 00 : 10 10 : 37 : 03 : 0 9 10 : 37 : 03 : 12 10 : 37 : 06: 00 10 : 37 : 07 : 27 0 : 37 : 11 : 21 10 : 37 : 14 : 21 10 : 37 : 1 5 : 0 7 10 : 37 : 17 : 27 10 : 37 : 22 : 09 10 : 37 : 25: 00 10 : 37 : 28 : 0 4 10 : 37 : 31 : 12 10 : 37 : 3 3 : 21 10 : 37 : 3 7 : 1 8 10 : 37 : 41 : 06 10 : 37 : 44 : 2 4 thought the whole thing starting at the beginning was screwy, so I had difficulty if I think the beginning part is screwy, that the rest of the part is okay. If he wanted to go and ban asbestos. Eventually they did, I guess they did ban asbestos. I don't know. Did they ban asbestos? No. I can talk to Steve. He is FMSI. Q You are pointing to Mr. Patrick Healey? A Yeah. Q He is currently the Executive Director and Secretary of the FMSI? A Right. I think if can ask him whether they did do that. I don't know. Maybe they did not. Q Maybe I will ask Mr. Healey that when I take his deposition. What I want to point you to another paragraph here where you go on to say, "It was stated that this question does not have a simple answer. As manufacturers introduced non-asbestos friction materials, they are on record that substitutes are available." Do you remember that being discussed? A I don't remember it, but if it said it in there, yes. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 w!<': rli.T ~ r rl n r ; c:: l ~ n ""' - P. \. M r n ""' T' I 1 [' ~ u : 37 45 : 0 0 L0 : 3 7 4 6 : 27 10 : 37 : 47 : 1 3 l 0 : 37 50: 01 10 : 37 51 : l 8 10 : 37 54 03 10 : 37 : 57 : 0 3 l 0 : 37 59: 00 10 : 38 05 : 09 10 : 38 07 : 0 9 l 0 : 38 : 0 9: 21 10 : 38 l 4 l 9 3B: 14 25 10 : 38 : 20 : l 8 10 : 38 : 2 3: 00 10 38 26 : l 8 l 0 38 29: l 2 l 0 :38: 35: 12 10 : 38 38 : 2l l 0 : 38 4l : 19 10 : 38 44: 28 10 : 38 48 : 15 10 : 38 51 : l 5 10 : 38 52 : 12 Q Does this refresh your recollection at all? A Not -- I don't remember this particular meeting, frankly. I don't remember. I don't remember it. That doesn't mean it didn't happened. It happened. If I signed the thing on the minutes, these are the minutes. Q Do you remember discussions amongst your members that they were concerned about the introduction of non-asbestos materials because that would be proof that there was a substitute for asbestos? A Look, it was well-known that there was substitutes for asbestos, but they couldn't put them in there for life. They couldn't just make one piece of brake lining if changing from asbestos to powdered metals by making a brake design change having the disk brakes come in there. The semi-metallic brake lining was used, yes. You could by changing it over to semi-metallic brake linings, if everybody would do that, if everybody would change the brakes over but changing the brakes over is Q Expensive? I P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 P, v Mr DP T.n r.:=~ _u:38:52:27 L0 : 3 8 : 5 6 : 0 0 10 : 39: 03: 21 10 :39 : 03: 21 10 : 39: 03: 21 10 :39: 03: 21 10 : 39: 06: 01 10 : 39 : 10: 07 10 : 39;1 2: 25 10 ; 39; 17 : 06 10:39:19:18 10:39:20; 06 :39:24; 03 10: 39: 27 :19 10 : 39 : 33 : 00 10 : 39 : 36: 03 10 : 39: 36 :19 10 : 39 : 39: 21 10 : 39: 43: 21 10 : 39; 59: 00 10 : 40 : 0l : l 9 l 0 : 40 : 04 : 18 l 0 ; 40 ; 07 : 03 10 : 40 : 10 : 16 A Brake lining manufacturers have nothing to do with manufacturing brakes. Brake manufacturers manufacture brakes. Q And it was expensive to make that change; wasn't it? A Well, it took a lot of development work, yes, but it was when they finally came out with the disk brakes and the semi-metallic disk brakes, they were probably an improvement over the old organic drum brakes, organic being, generally speaking, asbestos. Q And you thought that this proposal by Mr. Comins was just absolutely ridiculous? A I'm sorry, I am prejudice. I think almost anything that Mr. Comins said was kind of ridiculous. Q As 29, let me mark the minutes of the meeting of the Board of Directors dated June 12th, 1984. And under the section of Manufacture/Import of Asbestos-Containing Friction Materials, it states the following: "Mr. Stuart Comins requested that the subject of a possible government ban on the manufacture and import of asbestos-containing friction materials be P.O. Box 12459 Albany. NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 10 : 40 :11: 28 10 : 40 : 1 3: 21 10 : 40 : 16 : 16 10:40:19:12 10 : 40 : 22 : 09 10 : 40 : 25 : 10 10:40:27:25 10 : 40 : 29: 15 10 : 40 : 32 : 0 3 10 : 40 : 36 : 22 10 : 40 : 4 2: 28 10 : 40 : 45 : 1 2 '':40:48:21 10 : 40 : 50 : 28 10 : 40: 53 : 06 10 : 40 : 56 : 03 10 : 40 : 58 : 21 10:41:01:18 10:41:06:00 10 : 41 : 07 : 27 10:41:11:15 10:41:12:22 10:41:16:15 10:41:19:00 considered at this meeting. A similar proposal was discussed at the June 1983 meeting. After that meeting a ballot was submitted to the membership asking if the Institute should go on record asking the government to set an effective date by which the manufacture and import of asbestos-containing friction materials in the United States would be discontinued. Such a petition was rejected by a nine to six vote in the summer of 1983." Did I read that correctly? A I believe so, yeah. That thing there is not so bad. Just get Mr. Comins' name off there. The subject of a possible government ban on the manufacturer of import, in other words, they were going down to lower levels and lower levels of asbestos, and if the government put -- if the government put in a ban on the manufacture of asbestos-containing friction materials, people with a three year or five year, whatever it is, period, they could do it, I mean, and they probably did do it. Q Well it seems to me, sir A That's different from that other one you were reading me. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 n~ rlw ::l r rl W r i .c:: 1 :::\ n P - .R v Mr n.,:. T,J 1 r .:=. 10 : 41 : 19: 12 10:41:20:19 10 : 41 : 23 : 12 10 : 41 : 24 : 18 10 : 41 : 27 : 1 6 10:41:31:12 10:41:33:18 10:41:36:06 10:41:39:06 10:41:40:25 10 : 41 : 45 : 16 10 : 41 : 48: 01 41 : 49: 09 10 : 41 : 51 : 0 0 10 : 41 : 5 1 : 22 10 : 41 : 5 4 : 06 10:41:54:12 10 : 41 : 58 : 12 10 : 42 : 0 2 : 0 9 10:42:05:10 10:42:06:16 10:42:10:03 10:42:13:10 10:42:14:27 Q How is it different? A I would have to go back and look at it to tell you. Q Sir, they are here if you care to look at them. I think this is the same issue. Mr. Comins suggested that the Institute go on record supporting a ban. You thought that was ridiculous, but apparently six of your members agreed with it? A I can't find the thing. I can't find it. Q There was some support for that proposal though? A Apparently there was. I didn't realize it was nine to six. Q And you didn't vote in those matters; right? A I don't vote in any of this, no. Q Okay. And when you would take votes like this, you never kept the ballots, you always destroyed those; right? A They were probably verbal ballots. I don't know. Oh, a ballot was submitted. Q In fairness, I shouldn't say that you always destroyed them, I have seen ballots on P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 F'.rlw.::l rrl W Dri Rl rinP - Hv Mr DF>l.nc_;::; Lu:42:17:22 10:42:18:03 10 : 42 : 22 : 01 10 : 42 : 25 : 01 10 : 42 : 28 : 21 10: 42 : 30 : 03 10:42:32:16 10 : 42 : 34 : 06 10 : 42 : 36 : 21 10:42:40:00 10 : 42 : 43 : 10 10 : 42 : 44 : 1 2 1 "- : 4 2 : 5 1 : 2 7 1b : 42 : 5 4: 15 10:42:58:09 10 : 43 : 02 : 00 10 : 43 : 05 : 00 10:43:07:13 10:43:09:15 10:43:12:04 10 : 43 :16: 10 10 : 43 : 1 9 : 0 9 10 : 43 :19: 25 10 : 43 : 20 : 09 different issues. A Well, to get people to participate in balloting, we sometimes would say we will destroy your ballot when it comes in. Now on some of them we did in. Q To the extent you would take a poll of your members with the condition that the replies would be kept confidential or destroyed, what would lead you to do that, what type of concerns would you have had that would lead you to agree to destroy the ballots? A Well, that the information was of could harm the participant who submitted the information. For example, if you had a historical sales thing and you reported your growth, how many disk brake pads you sold this month, and if that information came in and got out to your competitor, they wouldn't know what you had. So that kind of stuff we didn't sent out. Anything that would embarrass, or make them reluctant to participate in the plan, we would agree we would discard that. Q How about stuff that could be subpoenaed later in litigation and used against the members, P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 P. v M r TJ ~=>L.u_c_a_ 1u : 43 : 23 : 03 10 : 43 : 24 : 03 10 : 43 : 26 : 07 10:43:28:22 10 : 43 : 31 : 1 9 10 : 43 : 39: 09 10:43:41:21 10 : 43 : 42 : 07 10:43:44:25 10 : 43 : 50 : 12 10 : 43 : 52 : 10 10 : 43 : 5 6: 06 ' '_; : 4 3 : 5 9 : 0 4 10 : 43 : 5 9:18 10:44:03:12 10:44:07:21 10 :44:10:28 10:44:14:16 10 : 44 : 17 : 03 10 : 44 : 20 :18 10 : 44 : 23 : 15 10:44:23:27 10:44:27:15 10 : 44 : 31 : 01 did you destroy that kind of stuff? A That stuff was probably destroyed, but there were no subpoenas out, nothing out. That was our way of trying to get some kind of a response. I just wish now that I had. Q Done what, destroyed more documents or not done A No. Destroyed. I never destroyed any. Don't get so blessed accusatory to me. I never destroyed anything up there. But I certainly would go and tell people I would be happy to go and destroy the ballots if that would help them make a response. Q And protect them from liability? A If that were the case, yeah. Are we required to go and keep materials that can possibly give you a -- have you sued by some lawyer later on? Are we required to keep that kind of stuff? We can destroy stuff as long as we are not destroying it after a subpoena has been issued. Q And after the Institute was subpoenaed in 1982, and you gave a deposition and produced the records of the Institute for the first time, were P.O. Box 124S9 Albany. NY 12212-24S9 Albany (SIB) 43B-0126 Troy (S18) 283-S064 Schenectady (SIB) 3SS-9216 Clifton Park (SIB) 3B3-1241 Fax (SIB) 446-0SB2 Rv Mr DPT.lli'B_ 1u: 44 : 34: 24 10 44 37 09 l 0 44 3 9 : 07 10 : 44 43 : 21 10 : 44 45 : 21 l 0 : 44 49: 06 l 0 : 44 : 52: 24 l 0 : 44 59: 12 10 45 15 : 13 10 45 15 : 13 10 : 45 15 : 13 10 : 45 : 1 5 : l 3 : 45 : 17 09 l 0 : 45 : 21 15 10 45 : 2 4 27 10 45 : 25: 00 10 : 45 : 27 : 1 3 10 45 28 : 00 l 0 45 30 : 15 10 45 35 : 00 10 45 43 : 13 10 45 47 : 16 l 0 : 45 : 49 : 1 5 10 : 45 : 50 : 24 any, any documents pertaining to asbestos discarded in your tenure? A No, sir. Those people came through from Philadelphia and went through our books. Everything stayed on those files and screwed our files all up, but they stayed there in the files. Q Getting back to Exhibit 29, did you know a gentleman from Bendix named Mr. Ripelle? A Would it be Riopelle? Q Probably, yes. A I knew a person named Mr. Riopelle. Q I noticed in some of your correspondence to him you would address it "Dear Rip," that's why I mispronounced his name. You knew him pretty well? A I knew him business-wise. I didn't know him socially. Q Do you recall as set forth in Exhibit 29 that Mr. Riopelle provided you with information about what it would cost to comply with the exposure levels that OSHA was proposing? A I don't recall that. Is this what he said here? Q Yes. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 10 : 45 : 53: 03 A Well, he was a very reliable source so if 1 0 : 4 5 5 7 0 0 he said that, I would go along with that. 10 : 45 58 18 Q And you agree and you recognize that 1 0 : 4 6 : 0 1 : 0 3 compliance costs millions of dollars? l 0 : 46 : 03 : 07 A I know it costs lots of money. l 0 : 46 : 0 5 : 1 0 Q And every time OSHA proposed new l 0 : 4 6 : l 0 : 1 5 regulations, or the EPA proposed regulations, or 1 0 : 4 6 : 1 2 : 1 9 the Office of Toxic Substances had a proposal, the 1 0 : 4 6 : l 8 0 1 FMSI together with the AIA formulated a reply 1 0 : 4 6 : 2 2 l 3 against those proposals, do you remember that? l 0 : 46 : 27 : 09 A No. 10 46 : 3l : 18 Q Do you remember working with the AIA to 4 6 : 3 4 : 2 7 formulate responses to proposed legislation? l 0 46 36 : l 2 A I talked with the people at AIA, yes. l 0 46 40 : 0 0 Q And generally what you would do is you 1 0 4 6 : 4 2 : 0 6 would meet with your members, you would compile 1 0 : 4 6 : 4 8 : 0 7 their opinions, you, yourself would propose a 1 0 : 4 6 : 5 3 : 2 1 draft, you type it up, you would circulate it 1 0 : 4 6 : 5 7 : 0 3 among your members, and ask them for comments 1 0 : 4 7 0 0 : 2 4 before you mailed it off to the government? 10 : 47 03 : 0 3 MR. HARKINS: Objection. Complex l 0 : 47 05 : l 5 question. 1 0 : 4 7 0 5 : 1 6 BY MR. DeLUCA: l 0 : 47 0 5 : 2 5 Q Is that how it worked? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 F. rl w ri r rl W n r i .c: l r~ n_t=> - . R_\l _M.r flp T,1 Lr ri l 0 : 47 : 0 6 : 2 4 l 0 : 47 : 1 0: 0 0 1 0 : 47 : 1 6 : l 2 1 0 : 47 : l 7 : 01 10 : 47 : 21 : 1B 10 : 47 : 2 4 : 27 10 : 47 : 27 : 0 3 10 : 47 : 28 : 1 5 10 : 47 : 31 : 0 0 1 0 : 47 : 31 : 1 6 10 : 47 : 33 : 1 8 1 0 : 47 : 3 6 : 0 0 :47:40:18 10:47:43:06 10:47:49:07 10 : 47 : 55: 01 10:47:57:03 10 : 48 : 00 : 0 4 10 : 48 : 01 : 04 10 : 48 : 0 4 : 06 10 : 48 : 0 6: 06 10 : 48 : 08: 27 10 : 48 : 11 : 06 l 0 : 48 : 1 4 : 24 A I don't recall exactly what your -- we did respond to OSHA and the EPA, and I thought constructively. Q Every time, every time they proposed tightening the standards on asbestos, the FMSI was there in support of the friction materials manufacturers; right? A They were? I don't know that. You are telling me that. Q Do you disagree with that? A I don't disagree. I don't know. Q Do you ever recall abstaining from commenting on proposed legislation? A Only if we did not feel that it was worthy of a response. We felt we were helping the rule_making process by commenting on it. Q What do you mean by "helping the rule-making process"? A When you are making rules down in Washington, New York State, or Albany, wherever you are making them, you need input to go and decide what you are going to do. So we would always give them some input on what was feasible and what was not. They can go half cocked on some P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 I B) 438-0126 Troy (5 IB) 2B3-5064 Schenectady (5 I B) 355-92 I 6 Clifton Park(518) 3B3-1241 Fax (51 B) 446-05B2 nli'. rl r.1 ~ 'I"' rl W 'I"' i c:: l ~ n r=:. - ~ v M 'I"' n r=:. T,11 r ~ 10 : 48 1 8 : 1 6 10 : 48 1 9: 27 10 : 48 : 21 15 10 : 48 : 24 : 21 10 : 48 27 : 15 10 : 48 34 16 10 : 48 : 3 6: 15 10 : 48 : 38 : 2 4 10 : 48 42: 15 10 : 48 45 : 22 10 : 48 48 : 10 10 : 48 : 5 2: 1 9 48 : 55 : 2 4 10 : 49: 00 : 04 10 : 49 : 02 : 21 10 : 49: 02: 21 10 : 49:12 : 27 10 : 49 : 15 : 21 10 : 49 : 1 9 : 0 0 10 : 49 : 20 : 28 10 : 49 : 23 : 04 10 : 49 : 25 : 06 10 : 49: 29 : 15 10 : 4 9 : 3 1 : 0 0 of these asbestos substitutes. Q Would you agree that to the extent proposed regulation would have caused increased cost to the industry, you certainly replied to those proposals? A I don't think it was always about increased costs. It was sometimes, you know, increased costs comes along with the difficulty of doing things. Sometimes some things are impossible, some things appear to be impossible, getting a fiber limit down to 0.5 per cc sounded like an awfully difficult thing regardless of what the cost was. It didn't seem to be feasible to do certain things like that. I am using that as an example. Q Are you familiar with an agency called the Research Triangle Institute? A No, I'm not. It is down in -- I am familiar. There is some place down in North Carolina. Q You don't recall whether or not they prepared a report that estimated the cost that friction materials manufacturers woulo have to bear? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 l u:49:3l :00 10 : 49: 32 : 01 10:49; 35: 09 10 : 49: 38 : 03 10 : 49 : 40 : 21 10: 49 : 44 : 06 10:49:59:10 10 : 50 : 02 ; l 8 10 : 50 : 06 : 0 4 10:50:09:28 l 0 : 50 : l 3: 22 l 0 : 50 : 1 6: 16 .-' - : 5 0 : l 7 : l 3 10: 50: 19: 21 l 0 : 50 : 24 : l 5 10: 50 : 28 : 21 10 : 50 : 29 : 27 10; 50 : 36: l 5 10 : 50 : 41 : 28 10 : 50 : 45 : 00 10:50:49:19 10 :50 : 53: 06 10 : 50 : 55: 07 10 : 50 : 59: 09 A No. Is that it there? Q No, it's not. A No, I do not. Q As Exhibit 30 let me mark the minutes of the annual membership meeting of the FMSI dated June 13th and 14th, 1984. On page 7 of your minutes it says, "Noted at this point was the 25 million dollars capital equipment cost estimate in the Research Triangle Institute report along with their projected 18 million dollars per year incremental operating cost for compliance." Do you have a recollection of that? A Somebody must have reported this in the-- no, I don't have any recollection of that at all. It is in my minutes, but somebody must of given that information in. Q With respect to going to the government and making a proposal for the eventual elimination and ban of asbestos-containing brakes, certain members of yours thought that that was opening up a Pandora's box, and that's the exact language you use here in the minutes, do you remember that? A Those are part of the minutes of something there, I guess, and I must -- but I P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Rv Mr DPT.11r_a 1u: 51 02 :18 10 : 51 05 : 09 10 : 51 08 : 15 l 0 : 51 : 1 0 : 00 l 0 : 51 1 3 : 06 10 : 51 l 4 : 10 10 : 51 16 : 2 5 10 : 5l l 7 : 01 .1 0 : 5 1 1 7 0 7 10 : 51 30 : 03 l 0 : 51 33 : 03 l 0 : 51 : 37 : 25 ' : 51 4 0: 06 10 : 51 43 : 10 10 : 51 47 : 21 10: 5l 49:22 10 : 52 15 : 27 10 : 52 : 20 : 22 10 : 52 23 : l 2 10 : 52 33 :12 10 : 52 33 : 12 10 : 52 : 34 : 12 10 : 52 36 : 06 10 : 52 40 : 03 don't remember it, no. If you didn't have this here with you, I would not remember it. Q You remember it now though? A I remember seeing it up here just about three minutes ago. Okay? Q Does this refresh your recollection at all? A No. Q Do you know -- strike that. Do you remember a discussion about whether or not the government would ban the manufacture of friction materials in this country but would still allow them to be imported from Canada and Mexico? A I don't recall this. I am sure you have got it someplace, but I don't recall it. Q Sir, as Exhibit 31 I'm going to mark a memo dated December 18th, 1985 from you to the Health and Environmental Affairs Committee regarding the revisions to the National Emission Standard for Hazardous Air Pollutants for Asbestos. It copies the officers of the FMSI and Board of Directors, and it contains some attachments, including the memorandum from a law firm called Kirkland and Ellis. Are you familiar P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Edwarrl W nric::l~nP- "Rv Mr npLncci'i 1u : 52 : 43 : 18 10 52 45 : 03 10 52 4 6 : 2 4 10 : 52 4 9 : 00 10 : 52 50 : 21 10 : 52 56 : 24 10 : 52 : 5 9: 03 10 : 53 : 02: 22 10 53 : 04: 24 10 53 0 4: 2 4 10 : 53 05 : 24 10 : 53 : 1 0 : 16 53 15 : 22 10 : 53 18 : 06 10 : 53 : 22 : 03 10 : 53 : 22 : 03 10 : 53 : 25 : 03 10 : 53 : 2 8 : 0 9 10 : 53 30 :15 10 : 53 32: 13 10 : 53 33 : 03 10 : 53 : 36 : 0 6 10 : 53 : 41 : 1 3 10 : 53 : 44: 21 with Kirkland and Ellis? A I am familiar that they are a law firm. Q Do you understand them to be a law firm that represented asbestos companies? A No, but I don't doubt it. I Q Do you understand them to be a law firm that presently represents companies that manufacture or supplied asbestos friction materials? A No, I don't. Q Do you -A Their name appeared through the years in litigation. I guess they are defense attorneys maybe, but they may also be plaintiff attorneys. I don't know. Q Do you remember them as being a law firm that represented or provided representation to the AIA, the Asbestos Information Association? A I believe there was some association with the AIA. Q And the AIA, as we discussed last time, was a lobbying organization that represented asbestos companies; correct? A I don't know whether they were strictly a P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 F'. rLw.:=t r rl W D r i ~ 1 rl n P - R v Mr D P T,11 r- rl l u: 53 : 47 : l 2 l 0 : 53 : 50 : 09 10 : 53 : 5 3 : 00 l 0 : 53 : 57 : 22 l 0 : 54 : 03 : 00 10:54:06:04 l 0 :54 l l :03 l 0 :54 l l :24 l 0 :54 l 5 : l 3 l 0 :54:l 8:l 6 10 : 54 :22 : 22 10 : 54 :26: 00 eg:mf: 5 4 : 3 0 : 1 0 10 : 54 :32 : 22 10 :54:35 :09 10 : 5 4 41 : 03 10 : 54 45 : 07 10 : 54 50 : 27 10 : 54 51: 18 10 : 54 53 : 00 10 : 54 55 : 21 10 : 54 : 58 : 28 10 : 55 : 00 : 04 10 : 55 : 03 : 07 lobbying corporation. I know they had asbestos manufacturers were members of the AIA. Q Okay. And we talked last time about how you even went down to Arlington, Virginia and had meetings at the AIA, and you knew some of the directors, like Matthew Swetonic and Bob Mereness and Bob Pigg? A Yes, I knew, but Matt Swetonic was somebody who was down there at the very beginning and he wasn't with the AIA, as I recall, but I do remember Bob Mereness and Bob Pigg. Q And I want to show you a section of that memo. It says, "The cost per life saved of new monitoring requirements are not presented but appear to be in the range of $500,000. EPA may well consider such costs reasonable but the total number of lives saved, five to 15 annually, is small." A Where is this from? Q From the Exhibit 31 that I just marked. This comes from the Kirkland and Ellis memo. A Oh, okay. Q Do you remember these types of discussions? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 10 : 55 : 04 : 21 10 : 55 : 06 : 04 10 : 55 : 10 : 16 10 : 55 :14:24 10 : 55 : 1 6: 18 10 : 55 : 18 : 06 10 : 55 : 20 : 28 10 :55 :23 :13 10 :s5 : 26 : 06 10 : s5 : 27 : 03 10 : 55 : 27 : 03 10 : 55 : 30 : 07 :55 : 33 : 25 10 : 55 : 34 : 21 10 : 55 : 37 : 12 10 : s5 : 4 0 : 1 8 10 : ss :43 : 00 10:55:46:18 10 : 5s :49: 06 10 : 55 : 53 : 28 10 : 55 : 55 : 06 10 : 55 : 58 : 01 10 :56 :00 :09 10 : 56 : 04 : 10 A I don't remember this particular one, no. Q What do you think about this? MR. HARKINS: I object. THE WITNESS: I didn't think I was here to be interviewed about what I think. I'm happy to go and give a deposition as to what has happened and whatnot, but I don't -- I feel you are stretching your questions now. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q Well, sir, I respectfully disagree, and I'm asking you, what do you think about this type of analysis? A I understand that people try to go and put an analysis on this as to how much a person's life is worth, and all that. This is probably back in the '80s, or something like that. Nowadays they are trying to quantify something like a person's life. People try to do that. I may not agree with it, but Q Do you agree with it? A A person's life today is worth more than $500,000, I would think. If you are trying to quantify, it is some figure much higher than that. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 'Ru Mr nPT.llr'::l l v : 56 : 06 : 28 10 : 56 : 1 0 : 12 10 : 56 : 1 0 : 12 10:56:11:19 10 : 56 : 12 : 00 10 : 56 : 1 3 : 27 10 : 56 : 1 5 : 25 10 : 56 : 1 8 : 15 10 : 56 : 20 : 21 l 0 : 56 : 22 : 07 l 0 : 56 24: 01 l 0 : 56 : 26: 09 '.~ : 5 6 : 2 8 : 1 9 1o:56 : 2 9 : 2 1 l 0 : 56 : 29: 27 l 0 : 56 : 33 : 12 l 0 : 56 : 37 : 0 4 l 0 : 56 : 40 : l 8 l 0 : 56 : 43 : l 8 10 : 56 : 43 :1 8 10 : 56 : 45 : l 5 10 : 56 : 47: 06 10 : 56 : 49: l 0 10 : 56 : 50 : l 8 Q There is nothing more valuable than human life? MR. HARKINS: Objection, asked and answered. THE WITNESS: But you are in a people are going to go and get some trying to put some kind of value. If somebody gets killed in some kind of a plane crash, how much was that life worth? They always try to figure that out and give some kind of value as to what kind of settlement they will get afterwards. You should know that. BY MR . DeLUCA : Q Do you think that it is responsible to make those types of business decisions based upon what you might -- what type of liability you may have versus what it would cost to comply with the law? MR. HARKINS: I object to the question because it's not relevant to ask him what he thinks, number one. Number two, I don't know what you mean by "those types of decisions." P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 1 u : 5 6 : 5 1 : o 9 BY MR . DeLUCA : 10 : 56 : 51 : 16 Q Let me rephrase. Do you think making l 0 : 5 6 : 5 5 : 2 7 businesses decisions based upon -- strike that. l 0 : 57 : 0 4 : 2 4 Did you ever drive a Ford Pinto? l 0 : 57 : 0 7 : 18 A No. 10 : 57 : 0 9 : 0 6 Q Did you ever hear about the exploding gas l 0 : 57 : l 2 : l 5 tanks on the Ford Pintos? 10 : 57 : l 5 : 0 0 A Yes. l 0 : 57 : l 5 : 2 5 Q Did you ever hear the story about how a l 0 : 5 7 : 2 0 : 1 2 business decision was made with respect to what it 1 0 : 5 7 : 2 3 : 1 5 would cost to repair those tanks versus how much 1 0 : 5 7 : 2 6 : 0 4 it would cost to pay the people who were killed? : 57 : 3 0 : 27 MR. KRAUSE: Objection. Foundation. 10 : 57 : 3 3 : 0 1 THE WITNESS: I don't think I heard l 0 : 57 : 3 4 : l 5 of that far. I heard there were some l 0 : 57 : 3 6 : 2 4 lawsuits on the Pinto gasoline tank, yes, 10 : 57 : 3 9 : 2 8 but that's all I know. l 0 : 5 7 : 4 2 : 2 1 BY MR. DeLUCA: l 0 : 57 : 42 : 2 5 Q Well I want you to assume that that's 10 : 57 : 4 5 : 0 6 true. 10 : 57 : 4 5 : l 2 A You are really going pretty far apart. l 0 : 5 7 : 4 8 : 0 3 You are going down the road. Why can't we keep l 0 : 57 : 5 l : 15 this thing on the FMSI? l 0 : 57 : 53: 07 Q I think this is relevant to the FMSI. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 1u : 57 : 56 : 21 A I don't think the Pinto tank thing is 10 : 57 : 5 9: 1 9 relevant. l 0 : 57 : 5 9: 2 4 Q What about weighing the cost of complying 1 0 : 5 8 : 0 2 : 1 5 with the law versus the cost of paying claims? 10 : 58 : 06: 18 MR. HARKINS: Objection. Lack of 10 : 58 : 08: 22 foundation. The man doesn't manufacture, 10 : 58 : 08 : 22 he doesn't pay claims. 10:58 :09:15 MR. KRAUSE: Same objection. 10:58:1o:o6 BY MR. DeLUCA: 10 : 58 :1 0: 04 Q Do you think that is an ethical business 1 0 : 5 8 : 1 2 : 2 2 decision to be made? 10 : 58 :13: 24 MR. HARKINS: Same objection. THE WITNESS: Yes. Okay? Will that 10:58 : 38 : 28 stop the questioning? 1 o : 5 8 : 4 1 : o 6 BY MR . De LUCA : 10:58:41:09 Q Would you trade your life today for 10 : 58 : 43 : 28 500,000? 10 : 58 : 44 : 06 MR. HARKINS: Objection. Absolutely 10 : 58 : 47 : 03 no relevance. We are so far afield of 10 : 58 : 49: 22 what is relevant. What does it matter 10 : 58 : 52 : 03 what a witness, what you, what the judge 10:59:02:15 thinks, Mr. DeLuca? 10 : 59 : 02 : 15 MR. DeLUCA: Well, I think what 10 : 59 : 02 : 15 matters is what the jurors think. And P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 ~rlw.::~ rrl W n r i c:; l .::~nP - "Rv Mr nPT.llr.::! 1u:59 : 02: 15 obviously it is my position that the 10 : 59: 04 : 00 FMSI's members chose profits over safety. 10 : 59: 08 :15 Now if you think I'm wrong about that, 10 : 59 :10 : 06 then you can tell me about how they were 10 : 59 :13: 09 concerned about people getting sick, and 10 : 59 :15 :15 protected those people with their 10 :59:17:12 financial detriment, I would be happy to 10 : 59 : 20:16 let you talk about that all day long, but 10 : 59 : 22 : 10 I don't think you can do that. 10 : 59: 23 :13 MR. HARKINS: I object to the form 10 : 59 :25 : 27 of the question. It is not a question. 10: 59:26: 06 MR. KRAUSE: I move the speech be 59 :28:06 stricken. 10 : 59 :29: 03 MR. HARKINS: I join in that and 10 :59:30:12 instruct the witness not to answer. 1 o : 5 9 : 3 1 : 1 o BY MR . DeLUCA : 10:59:31:19 Q Can you show me any evidence where the 10:59:34:19 FMSI or its members made conscious business 1 0 : 5 9 : 3 9 : 1 2 decisions to protect workers even though it was 1 0 : 5 9 : 4 3 : l 5 going to cost them money, can you show me anything 10 : 59 : 47 : 00 like that? 10 : 59 : 47 : 00 A I think all through my work down there we 1 0 : 5 9 : 5 1 : 1 2 kept on sending information to the members about 1 0 : 5 9 : 5 6 : 1 8 what the requirements were to go and get -- to go P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 "Rv Mr n~=>T r:::l 11:00:00:01 11 : 00 : 02 : 25 11 : 00 : 04:18 11 : 00 : 08 : 24 11 : 00 : 11 : 27 11 : 00 :1 6 : 10 11 : 00 : 21 : 06 11 : 00 : 23: 13 ~1 : 00 : 25 : 24 11 : 00 :28: l 3 11 : 00 :31 : 16 11:00:33:21 r' :00:37:15 l '' 11 : 00 : 42 : 03 11:00:44:12 11 : 00 : 45 : 07 11 : 00 : 48 : 06 11 : 00 : 51 : 27 11 : 00 : 55 : 00 11 : 00 : 56 : 24 11 : 00 : 5 9: 18 11 : 01 : 02 : 00 11 : 01 : 07 : 06 11 : 01 : 0 9: 22 and control asbestos fiber counts in the workplace, and I think all of that information that we sent down there as to what the OSHA regulations are, and what the EPA regulations are, were there to help people fight the problem with asbestos exposure. Yes, I think all of these memo even go through all those bulletins, and there is something there. Here are the new standards that OSHA has proposed. Here are the new standards that are now in effect. Here is a booklet that we put out to show you to go and control your asbestos exposure in the workplace. Here is an insert on our catalogs telling you to control your exposure to asbestos. Yes, I think we have done a lot of things on that. Q Well, sir, you knew in 1976 that there were excessive amounts of asbestos dust being generated on a daily basis in brake service centers throughout this country; did you not? A No, I did not know that. When is this? Q 197 6. A I knew there were exposure levels but I didn't know that they were hazardous, they were high enough to be hazardous. In addition to being P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 ];"' r1 '' :::0 r r1 w n r i c:: 1 :::0 n t=> - P. ' M r n t=> T. I 1 ("' :::0 11 : 01 : 12 : 21 11:01:17 01 11 01:19:07 11 01 : 22 : 12 11 01:25:18 11 01 : 28 : 00 11 01 : 30 : 21 11 01 : 36 : 10 11 01 : 3 9 : 15 11 01:44:19 11 01:46:24 11 01:47:21 01 50:09 11 01 52 : 2 8 11 01 56 : 1 3 11 01 59: 21 11 02 02 : 1 9 11 02 : 04 : 12 11 02 1 0 : 07 11 02 12 :15 11 02 : 13 : 25 11 02 : 16 : 03 11 02 17 : 28 11 02 17 : 28 exposed to asbestos, you have also you have to a dosage. In other words, just one little fiber in the air is not going to be doing it. You got to have a dosage of whatever the standard below whatever that standard is, 50,000 cc's or something like that. There has got to be some kind of a recognition that a very cloudy area with a lot of asbestos, a lot of asbestos in the air is more hazardous than one tiny damn fiber going here and there. So we brought that information out to our members all the time. Q Well tell you what, let's look at a couple things right now and then we will take a break. Just so you know where I am going, let's look see what you knew about the level of exposures in brake shops, let's look and see what you knew about how much exposure you had to have to get mesothelioma, and let's look at what you did to warn people of take cancer risk, okay? MR. HARKINS: I object to the form of the question because it was not a question. It was a statement. I move to strike. MR. DeLUCA: That's fine. You know P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 wP.rlw.::lrrl nri~l.::lnP- "Rv Mr nPT.llr.::l 1~:02:19:15 where I am going with this. 1 1 o 2 2 1 : 1 o BY MR. DeLUCA: 11 02 21 : 21 Q Let's look and see what you said in 1999. 1 1 0 2 2 3 : 1 2 Would it be fair to say that at least by 1976 that 1 1 0 2 : 2 6 : 0 7 you as Executive Director of the FMSI were well 1 1 0 2 : 2 9 : 2 2 aware that there was no question that excessive 1 1 0 2 : 3 4 : 0 7 amounts of asbestos dust exist in many brake 1 1 0 2 : 3 7 : 1 8 service centers, and you answered, "I believe l 1 02 3 9 : 0 6 that's so"? 11 02 43 : 1 0 A You said something entirely different 1 1 0 2 4 5 : 0 7 before. You said something about mesothelioma. 1 1 0 2 4 7 : 2 5 Mesothelioma is different from lung cancer, ~~~f~!~ 0 2 5 2 0 3 11 02 58 06 different from asbestosis. Mesothelioma was generally considered to be a different -- I don't 1 1 0 3 0 1 : 1 8 know how many brake lining or brake people caught 1 1 0 3 : 0 5 : 2 4 mesothelioma. Those were exposed to fiber content 1 1 0 3 : 0 8 : 1 8 that brought on asbestosis and lung cancer, but 1 1 0 3 : 1 5 : 0 7 mesothelioma is not lung cancer. 11 03 : l 7 : 07 Q That's true, sir. l 1 03 : 19 : 21 A You said mesothelioma in your sentence 11 : 03 : 2 2 : 2 7 before that. 11 : 03 : 2 3 : 03 Q That's right, that's what I am going to 1 1 : 0 3 : 2 5 : 1 8 ask you about right now. You testified in 1999 1 1 : 0 3 : 2 7 : l 3 that you knew that that mesothelioma was a deadly P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (SIS) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 f;"'rl r::>rrl w nric::l;:::,no P.u Mr noT.11ro::> 1L : 03 : 32 15 11 : 03 34 0 9 11 : 03 34 09 11 03 : 37 03 11 03 : 40 : 00 11 03 : 44 : 24 11 03 : 47 0 4 11 03 : 49 : 00 11 : 03 : 51 : 15 11 : 03 : 5 5 : l 6 l 1 03 : 56 : 28 11 : 03 : 58: 2 4 04 : 01 : l 5 11 : 04 : 02 : 27 11 : 04 05: 15 11 : 04 08: 06 11 04 : 09 : 03 11 04 : 11 : 09 l 1 04 : 13 : 21 l 1 04 1 4 12 11 04 14 12 11 04 l 8 : 2l l l 04 : 2l 00 l 1 : 04 : 21 22 disease; right? A Yes. Q And it says, "I don't believe I said there was a safe level, or I thought there was a safe level for mesothelioma"? A I don't know. MR. HARKINS: His answer continues, and I object to the use of this without confronting him properly with the use of transcript. You have to lay a foundation that his statement is inconsistent, you have to show him the question and the answer. And instead you are publishing to the jury by showing on the screen a transcript without laying the proper foundation. You are also doing so out of context, because you didn't give him the benefit of reading the entire question and the entire answer. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q Mr. Drislane, here is your entire deposition, all 347 pages of it. If you want to go off the record and take your time and look through there, we can do that. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 l 1 : 04:23: 09 l l 04 : 25 : l 0 11 04 : 25 : 18 11 04 : 27 : 18 11 04 : 2 9: 15 11 04 : 30 : 10 l 1 : 04: 32 : 22 l 1 04: 33: 00 11 1 0 4 : 3 6 : 0 9 11 04 : 37 : 13 1l 04 39: 12 11 : 04 47 : 1 9 04 47 19 11 : 04 47 l 9 l 1 : 04 47 l 9 11 04 : 48 : 24 11 04 : 5 l : 01 11 04 53 : 09 11 04 56: 24 11 04 58: 13 11 05 : 00: 09 11 05 : 00 : 22 11 : 05 : 02 : 01 11 : 05 : 03 : 00 w~rlw-"l rrl n r i <::: l -"lnP - Rv Mr nPT.lll'.rl MR. HARKINS: That doesn't cure my objection. MR. DeLUCA: I don't care about your objection. Your objection is noted. MR. HARKINS: You interrupted me, Mr. DeLuca. I'm not saying that he needs to read the entire transcript. I'm saying prior to publishing to .the jury by portraying on the screen a portion of the transcript, you must lay a necessary foundation. In fairness to the witness, you must show him the question and the answer that you now claim to be inconsistent with a prior statement, because otherwise you are introducing pure hearsay. That is the basis of my objection. It's not cured by handing him a 300-page exhibit and then telling him he can go off the record and read the whole thing. That's the basis of my objection. MR. DeLUCA: Anything else you want to add to? MR. HARKINS: Not right now, P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 i<' r'lt.r :::> r rl tJJ n r i .::: 1 :::> n a. - P. " M r n ro T .11 .=l 1l :05 : 04: 00 Mr. DeLuca. 1 1 : 0 5 : G5 : 1 3 MR. DeLUCA: Okay. 1 1 : o 5 : o 5 : 1 5 BY MR . DeLUCA : 11:05:07:24 Q So to recap, you knew there was excessive 1 1 : 0 5 : 1 1 : 2 7 exposures in brake shops, and you knew there was 1 1 : 0 5 : l 4 : 0 9 no save level for the development of mesothelioma; 11 : 05 : l 6 : 21 correct? 1l : 05 : l 7 : 24 MR. HARKINS: Objection. Complex 11 : 05 : l 9:1 9 question. Please break it down into its tt:o5:2o:t2 component parts. 1 1 : o 5 : 2 1 : 1 2 BY MR . De LUCA : 11 : 05 : 21 : l 0 Q Sure. Item number one, you knew there : 0 5 : 2 3 : 2 5 was excessive asbestos exposures in brake shops? 11 : 05 :26 : 28 A I heard that there were. I didn't know 1 1 : 0 5 : 2 8 : 2 2 this. I heard that there were. 11 : 05 : 3l : 0 0 Q Okay. Item number two, you knew there 1 1 : 0 5 : 3 5 : 0 6 was no safe level for mesothelioma? 11 : 05 : 3 9 : 0 6 A I did not know that. 11:05:39:25 Q Isn't that what I just showed you? 11 : 05 : 42 : 10 A I'm sorry, I did not know that at that 1 l : 0 5 : 4 4 : 0 3 time. I don't know what it says right in here. 11:05:47:15 Q Did you come to learn that at some point 11 : 05 : 51 : 03 in time? 11 : 05 : 5l : 07 A I don't honestly know. I am confused by P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (S 18) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 _B~ _Mr_ DPLJll".::l ll:06:00:10 11:06:03:19 11 : 06 : 08: 06 11 : 06 : 10 : 28 11 : 06 : 16 : 03 1l :06: l 8 :24 1l : 06 :23 : l 5 11:06:25:16 11 : 06 : 28 : 18 1l : 06 : 31 : 12 11 : 06 : 35 :10 11 : 06 : 38 : 03 ,.-:06:41:12 11 : 06 : 43 : 15 l l : 06 : 50 :18 11 : 06 : 5 2 : 18 11 : 06 : 54 : 24 11 : 06 : 57 : 15 11 : 07 : 0 0 : 06 11 : 07 : 03 :16 11 : 07 : 04: 09 11:07:04:18 11:07:06:24 11:07:09:21 your questioning because I thought mesothelioma was not only came from Chrysolite and amphibole, different type of asbestos, not from the Chrysotiles, I'm sorry for the -- and I thought the only time that they caught any kind of cancer was from the -- was from the -- those different asbestos types that were not used in brake linings. That was my understanding, that was my feeling at that time or some place during that time. Now Ike Weaver says that it happens all the time, all types of asbestos. But isn't there anything about dosage in there? I would think dosage has something to do with it, so I don't I did not know that the brake linings would cause mesothelioma, is that the question? Q No, that wasn't the question. You are right, dosage does have something to do with it. Do you know what dose of exposure to asbestos or what dose of asbestos you have to have before you mesothelioma? A No. Q Have you ever read any of the studies that suggest one day of exposure to asbestos is sufficient? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Ll : 07 : 1 0 : 03 l 1 : 07 : 1 1 : 0 3 11 : 07 1 3 : 00 11 07 1 6 : 18 l 1 07 1 8 : 22 11 : 07 : 2 0: 2 l 1l : 07 : 2 4 : l 0 1l 07 24 : 24 1l : 07 27 : 1 2 1 l : 07 : 2 9 : 1 9 l l : 07 3 2 : 0 3 l 1 : 07 32 : 03 : 07 : 3 5 : 0 3 l l : 07 35 : 28 1l : 07 42 : 25 11 : 07 : 47 : 2 l 11 : 07 48 : l 0 l l : 07 50 : 04 1l : 07 : 5 0 : l 9 1l : 07 : 53 : l 2 l l : 07 : 53: 22 11 : 07 : 54 : 04 l l : 07 : 56 : 03 l 1 . 07 : 5 6: l 8 A I haven't read them. Q And as far as your belief you said that you thought that mesothelioma was due to Chrysolite or amphibole exposure; right? A That's what I thought. Q Did you believe the Chrysotile poses a hazard? A Yes, for asbestos or lung cancer, yes. Q But not mesothelioma? A That was my understanding, that's what I thought. Q Where did you get that information? A I don't recall. Q Do you know what OSHA's position is on the ability of Chrysotile to cause mesothelioma? A No, I don't. Q Do you know what the EPA's position is? A No, I don't. Q Do you know what the Consumer Product Safety Commission position is? A No. Q How about the World Health Organization? A I don't know. Q What about the International Agency of P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 1:07:58:19 1 : 08 : 00: 15 . 1:08:02:18 L1 : 0 8 : 0 2 : 1 8 11 : 08 : 05 : 09 11 : 08 : 05 : 18 11:08:05: 24 11:08:08:27 01 : 0 8 : 1 4 : 2 2 11 : 08 : 19: 06 11 : 08 : 20 : 15 11:08:24:16 :08:27:15 11 : 08 : 30: 06 11:08:32:22 11 : 08 : 35 : 09 11:08:37:25 11 : 08 : 4 0: 19 11 : 08 : 43 : 00 11:08:49:00 11 : 08 : 50 : 1 9 11:08:57:15 11 : 08 : 59 : 24 11 : 09: 01 : 22 Research On Cancer? A You may continue on with this, but I don't know . Q How about the Surgeon General of the United States? A I don't know. Q The World Trade Organization? A I don't know. Are they involved with this too? Q Dr. Selikoff's position was on the ability of Chrysotile to cause mesothelioma? A Well, I think back in the early '80s Dr. Selikoff used to say that we are not out to close down the asbestos industry, we are here to control it and get good working conditions in the place so that we don't have any asbestos-related diseases. That's what I thought the Dr. Selikoff said, so at that time I don't believe he thought that the Chrysotile would cause the mesothelioma. That's what I thought. Q Well I disagree with what you said about him, but MR. KRAUSE: That's really great to have on the record. We are all delighted P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY I2212-2459 Albany (S 18) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (SIS) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 l<:rlw:::. rrl w nri c.l :::.nP - 1=\u Mr nPT.lll'::l l :09 :03 : 27 1:09:07:06 1 : 09 : 08: 10 L1:09:10:15 11 : 0 9 :1 2 : 00 11:09:13:16 11 : 0 9 : 14 : 18 11:09:16:12 11 : 09 :18 :03 11:09:20:03 11 : 09 : 20 : 27 11 : 09: 23 : 09 : 09 : 25: 13 11 : 09: 27 : 06 11 :o9: 32:21 11 : 09 : 3 4: 09 11 :09:35:15 11 : 09 :37 :06 11 : 09 : 38: 25 11:09:41:12 11 : 09 : 44 : 24 11 : 09 : 49: 00 11 : 09 : 56 : 28 11:09:59:24 to hear that. Why we are littering the record with your disagreements? MR. DeLUCA: Because I wanted to preface the next question I ask. Hold on a second. You asked me a question. I am going to answer. MR. KRAUSE: You are not asking legitimate questions. MR. DeLUCA: Do you want an answer to my question? MR. KRAUSE: I don't care if I get one or not, frankly. If you want to litter the record with your disagreements, that's a waste of time. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q Dr. Selikoff also said that workers should be warned, didn't he say that? A I believe he probably did, yes. Q Warned that asbestos could cause cancer? A I believe he did. Q And the FMSI didn't do that until 1986? A The warnings out, may not have come out and said "cancer," but we put warnings out on the thing. The warnings we put were the same as OSHA P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany {SIS) 4JS-0126 Troy (SIS) 2S3-5064 Schenectady (SIS) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 IS) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 ~rlt-r.::l rrl W n r i c:: l .::lnP - "Ru Mr n~=>T.llr.::l l : 10 : 02 : 09 1 : 10 : 04: 15 L1 : 1 0 : 0 6 : 2 1 11 : 10 : 06 : 27 11 : 10 : 10: 27 11 : 10 : 12 : 12 11 10 : 12 : 18 11 10 : l 6 : 09 11 10 : l 8 : l 5 11 10 : 20 : 2l 11 10 : 21 : 24 11 10 : 23 : 09 10: 26 : 27 11 10 : 29 : 22 11 : 10 : 32 : 00 11 : l 0 : 34: 13 11 : 10 : 36 : 12 11 : 1 0 : 46 : 21 11 10 : 46 : 21 11 10 : 46: 21 11 10 : 46 : 21 11 10 : 46 : 21 11 10 : 46 : 21 11 10 : 50 : 0 3 and EPA were putting out. Q Which you recognized to be inadequate; right? A No, I did not recognize them to be inadequate. At the time I thought they were kind of strict. Q If there was a cancerous cancer causing substance in this room, would you want to know that? MR. HARKINS: Relevance. THE WITNESS: If there were cancer causing substance in this, it would be, one, if there were one fiber of Chrysolite or something in this room, would I want to know it? No, it is ridiculous. A certain kind of level that could actually bring on cancer, yes. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q What if there were 17 fibers per cc of Chrysotile in this room, would you want to know that? A I don't think it would be significant. Whatever the level is, whatever the level is that OSHA basically agreed to. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (51 B) 446-0582 k'r! .r::l rr! w n r ; 1C" "::11'"\0 On Mr naT ,....., 1 10 : 54 : 06 1 10 : 56: 15 L1 : 1 0 : 5 8 : 0 4 11 : 11 : 02 : 12 11 11 : 03: 28 11 11 : 06: 07 11 11 : 06: l 3 11 11 : 08 : 28 '\_ l : 1 1 0 9 : 0 6 11 11 11 : 07 11 : 11 13 : 19 11 : 11 : 14 : 18 11 15 : 2 2 11 11 : 17 : 21 11 11 20 : 21 11 11 : 21 : 0 3 11 : 21 : 27 : 2 4 11 : 22 07 : 1 6 11 : 22 10 : 04 11 : 22 10 : 25 11 : 22 : 11 : 06 11 : 22 14 06 11 : 22 17 12 11 : 22 2 0 : 2 4 Q What right would you have to make that decision for someone else? A I'm going to I find you very, very difficult. I'm going to take a break now. Q Would you answer my question before you leave? A No. I will answer it when I come back. All right? Q I would like the answer now. A All right. I am going to wet my pants right now, okay? Q You can go. MR. PIAZZA: The time is 11:02, we will take a pause in the testimony of Mr. Drislane. (A short recess was taken.) MR. PIAZZA: The time is now 11:13, we will resume the testimony of Mr. Drislane. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q Mr. Drislane, the next area I want to talk to you about concerns what the FMSI and its members knew about the levels of exposure to asbestos that were occurring through the use of P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 11 : 22 : 24 : 24 11 : 22 3 2 : 13 11 : 22 3 7 : 15 11 : 22 42:28 11 : 22 42 : 28 11 : 22 48: 03 11 : 22 49: 18 11 : 2 2 4 9 : 1 8 11 22 : 57 : 2 1 11 23 : 0 3 : 12 11 23 : 0 8 : 12 11 : 23 : 1 0 : 15 : 23 :10: 15 .' ;~ ', 11 : 23 : 1 4 : 2 4 11 : 23 : 1 4 2 4 11 : 23 : 2 0 : 0 3 11 : 23 : 2 5 : 13 11 : 23 : 2 9 : 2 2 11 : 23 : 2 9 : 22 11 : 23 : 34 : 07 11 23 : 35 : 24 11 23 : 38 : 00 11 23 45 : 0 9 11 23 49: 00 asbestos brakes. When you left the Institute in 1989, was it your position that anyone who was working with asbestos brakes needed protection? A Yes. Q Protection from breathing in asbestos fibers? A Yes. Q And was that your position because you knew and understood that both the installation and removal of asbestos brakes could present an exposure? A Yes. Q And those exposures could be harmful? A Yes. Q And that harm would include cancer? A One of the harms could be cancer. Q Another harm could be asbestosis? A Yes. Q And you knew that asbestosis was also a potentially fatal disease? A Could be a forerunner of cancer. Q I have a number of documents that I would like to show you and ask you about as it relates to exposure, and then we will talk about perhaps a P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 1'i 2 3 : 5 5 : 2 4 11 23 5 9 : 09 11 24 01 27 11 24 12 l 0 11 24 17 06 11 24 22 : 09 11 24 :25 : 01 11 24 25 : 01 11 24 28: 27 11 : 24 36 : 21 11 : 24 39: 09 11 24 41 : 21 24 42:19 11 24 46 : 1 8 11 24 50: 03 11 :24 52:15 11 : 24 52 : 27 11 24:54:00 11 25 : 0 0: 27 11 : 25 : 07 : 16 11:25:10:16 11 : 25 : 15 :21 11 :25:20:10 11 : 25 :20 :13 health, the health effects of exposure and warnings in a little bit. The first one which I will mark as Exhibit 32 is a letter that you received dated November 28th, 1972 from J. H. Kelly of Bendix Corporation, and you knew Mr. Kelly fairly well; did you not? A Yes. Q In fact, if I recall correctly, he was the individual who got you that job, who got you your job with the FMSI? A He referred me to them, but I got the job through the Board of Directors. Q Well, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to insinuate anything. He was the one who turned you on to the employment opportunity at the FMSI; right? A Correct. Q Okay. And in 1972, Mr. Kelly was advising you that the drilling of linings, chamfer of linings, cutting of linings, or grinding of linings may very well raise the asbestos concentrations in the atmosphere to above the OSHA standard? MR. KRAUSE: Who is this letter to P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 ~rl .::lrrl w nric:::l.::lnP- "Rv Mr nPTill"'.::l l .l : 2 5 : 2 l 70 ~ l l :25 :22 l 6 l l : 25 23 09 11 25 : 26 : 0 9 11 25 : 2 a: 18 11 : 25 : 3 0 : 01 11 : 25 : 30 : 0 9 11 25 : 3 l : l 2 1l 25 : 33 :24 1l : 25 :3 6 : 0 9 11 : 25 : 40 : 10 1l :25 : 44 :28 .. 2 5 5 0 : 1 6 1l 25 51 03 11 25 :51 03 l l : 25 :54 18 l l 25 56 : 07 l 1 26 00 :15 11 26 : 0 3 10 1l : 26 : 07 15 l 1:26:l l : 09 l 1 26:15 :24 11 : 26 17 03 l 1:26 l 7 03 and from? MR. DeLUCA: I'm sorry. Excuse me. I said that this was from Mr. Kelly to you. It was from you to Mr. Kelly. THE WITNESS: This is from me to Mr. Kelly. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q Let's back up for a second. This is a letter addressed to J. H. Kelly of Bendix Corporation, 1217 South Walnut Street, South Bend, Indiana, dated November 28th, 1972, as you can see from the next page, you were the author of that letter, okay? A Yes. Q I stand corrected and I apologize for the confusion. In this letter you advised Mr. Kelly of Bendix that when customers of yours drill linings, chamfer linings, cut linings, or grind linings, they may very well raise the asbestos concentrations in the atmosphere to above the OSHA standard, do you see that? A Yes. Q Do you recall what the OSHA standard was P.O. Box 12459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 ---------..------------------------------------------ Ll 2 6 : 1 9 : 1 3 11 26 : 21 27 11 : 26 24 03 11 26 26 : 28 11 26 : 29: 06 11:26:31:24 11 26 35 : 00 11 26 35 : 25 1 1 2 6 : 3 6 : u3 1l 26 : 38 : 0 3 11 26 : 40 : 12 11 26 : 40 : 12 26 : 44 00 11 26 : 47 01 11 26 : 52 : 27 11:27 00:03 11 27 03: 03 11 27 05 : 27 11 27 08 : 03 11 27 11:15 11 : 27 1 5 : 01 11 27 18 0 3 11 27:21 24 11 : 27 : 24 12 when you authored this letter in November of '72? A No, I do not recall what it was. Q You go on to say that some members have indicated that the drilling and grinding operations are problem areas in brake lining factories with existing exhaust systems, do you see that second sentence? A Yes. Q When you say "some members," you are speaking of members of the FMSI? A Yes. Q And let me see if I understand this correctly, you are telling them that drilling and grinding operations in their factories were causing excessive exposures, you are not talking about out in the field or in a brake garage? A Well, I'm talking of a couple different things there. At the very beginning you are talking like customer of yours, he being a brake lining manufacturer, no. He -- he was a brake manufacturer worked for the Bendix group. Cut linings or grind, this is their customers. Now some members, these here would be other people, other manufacturers in brake lining factories with P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 t<'.rh.r.::~ rrl W n r i .c:: l .::~nP - P.v Mr .DFl,nc:a l 1 27 27 : l 9 l 1 27 30: 03 11:27:32:18 l 1 : 27 :35: 27 11:27 39:03 11 27 44 : 00 11 27 46 : l 9 l 1 27 47 :09 11 27 : 5 0: 12 11 27 :52 :28 11 : 28 : 02 27 11 : 28 : 02 : 27 28 02 : 27 ,. l 1 28 02 : 27 l 1 28 05 :28 11 28 :07 : 21 11:28 11 27 11 28 14 12 11 28 1 4 l 2 11 28 16: 27 11 : 28 1 9:12 11 : 28 23 :00 11 :28 : 25 : 03 11 : 28 : 29: 24 existing exhaust systems were drilling and grinding without proper dust collectors. This is the beginning of the whole thing. The asbestos problem was not -- I was not aware of any asbestos problem before I came with FMSI. I came with FMSI in '7 0. I think this letter is '72, is that it? Q Yes, sir. A I 72 Well people hadn't put in controls in. They were just starting to get the message that there was something going on with the asbestos in the workplace. Q Here is what I want to focus you on. I want to focus you on the second sentence. You are reporting to him that some members of FMSI have told you that they have problems in their factories where they were drilling and grinding brake linings with existing exhaust systems? A Yes. Q And my question to you is: Did you understand at that point that even if you used exhaust ventilation, the drilling and grinding of asbestos brake linings could be a problem? A Well, they had to go and put some exhaust in. Now when you get into the exhaust issue, you P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 J:;": rl 1.r ;::l r rl W TJ r i c:: l ;::l n P - "R i7 M r TJ P T 11 r ;::l 1 1 2 8 3 2 : ') 0 11 28 35 : l 2 11 : 28 37 : l 8 11 : 28 39: 28 11 : 28 42 : 22 11 :28 48: 12 11 28 51 : 03 11 28 54 : 21 11 28 58 : 18 11 : 29 01 : 27 11 : 29 03 : 09 11 : 29 03: 18 .. 2 9 : 0 5 : 0 9 11 29: 08 : 27 l 1 : 29:13 : 21 11 : 29 : 1 4 : 27 11 29: 15 : l 6 11 29:18: 13 11 29 : 20 : 22 11 : 29 : 2 4 16 11 :29 :24 25 11 : 29 : 25 : 18 11 : 29 30 : 03 11 : 29 33 : 28 are not exhausting it out to the atmosphere. You are exhausting it to the dust collectors, and things like that, which stuff gets bagged and put in, somehow you dispose of the stuff, mind you. Yes, there was a problem, but some people did not properly exhaust the stuff at that time. Even after I left -- well, I won't go further. Q All right. These exhaust systems that you speak of were used in the factory during the manufacturing process? A Yes. Q Did you understand that people who were doing brake jobs at their house or doing brake jobs at Midas, might not of had these exhaust ventilation systems at that time? A At that time, no. Q So if you have an exposure that's a problem when you have exhaust, did you recognize that without exhaust it would be an even bigger problem? A That's correct. Q Okay. And then you go on to tell Bendix, Mr. Kelly of Bendix, in the last sentence here it says, "It therefore becomes your responsibility as ----------- P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 ~rl ~ rrl W Tlr i c:: l ~nP - P.u Mr TlPT.111'~ 11 29: 37 : l 0 11 29 40 : 09 11 29 45 : zl l l 29:45 l 9 1l 29: 47 06 l 1 29: 47 J6 11 29 : 52 l 6 l 1 29:53: 09 l 1 29:55 25 l 1 30 : 08 03 11 30 : ! 1 : J 7 11 30 : 1 5 : J 3 30 :18 l 5 11 : 30 : 21 J6 11:30:24 J9 11 : 30 :27 18 11 : 30 : 30 : 06 11 30: 32 : 24 11 30 : 35 : 10 11 30 36 : 13 11 30 : 38 25 11 : 30 : 41 l 8 11 30 : 43 : 22 11 30 : 46 : 10 the supplier of the brake lining to warn the customer of this possibility." A Right. Q Do you see that? A Yes. Q That's what you told Mr. Kelly of Bendix in 1972? A Yes, I did. Q And as far as warning goes, I want to ask you about the very last thing you say in your letter. You say, "This is a controversial item for the Institute in that some members feel that one or two companies are trying to railroad them into labeling. Another group of companies feel that we should comply with the spirit of the law now and it is not fair if they do the proper labeling and their competition does not." Do you remember that issue in general? A Yeah, generally. Q Okay. Does this go back to what you told me earlier about the competition among the various companies who made asbestos brakes? A I don't think this gets into the competition area. P.O. Box 12459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 ----------------------------------------------- l l : 30 : 47 : J 3 l 1 : 30 49: 03 11 30 51 : 5 l 1 30 : 52 : 13 11 30 : 5 4 2 8 l 1 30 : 58 86 l 1 : 30 59: 00 11 31 06 : ~ 5 11 31 0 9 : 03 l 1 31 1 4: 1 9 11 31 : 1 6 : 2 7 11 : 31 1 9 : 00 ,, 3 1 l 9 : 0 9 11 31 22 : 06 11 31 2 3 : 06 l 1 31 : 2 5 : 00 11 : 31 26 : 21 11 31 2 9: 24 1l 31 32 : 03 l 1 : 31 35 : 03 11 31 36 : l 2 11 31 39 : 21 11 31 40 : 13 11 : 3l 43 : 04 Q Okay. All right. A This gets into the individuals who are there. Q Okay. And do you remember who the members were, the one or two companies were that wanted the label? A I do not really recall who they were, no. Q Would you agree that the majority of those of the brake companies that were your members, did not want a warning at that time? A No, I would not recall. I don't recall that. Q I am asking if you agree with that or you just don't recall? A I don't agree with what you just said. Q Why do you disagree with it? A I think several of the bigger member were quite responsible, and they were labeling their products. The problem with some of the small manufacturers. Q Did you know Chrysler, they were a member of yours; right? A Yes, I did know Chrysler. I knew the Chrysler people. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ~rl1.1~rrl W Tlri c:::l ~nP. - P.v Mr TJP.T.lll'~ 1l 31 4 4 : 03 11 31 4 6 : 06 11 31 4 9 : 10 11 31 5 1 : 18 11 31 53:13 11 31 57 06 11 31 58 18 11 32 00 15 11 32 00: 24 l 1 32 01 : 16 l 1 32 06: 03 11 32 09: 00 .. 3 2 0 9 : 2 4 1 .1 3 2 1 4 : 0 l l 1 32 15 : 18 11 32 16: 03 11 32 18 :18 11 32 21 12 11 32 : 23 : l 8 11 32 26: 2l 11 32 2 9: 03 11 32 31 l 2 11 :32 34 06 11 : 32 37 00 Q Did you know that Chrysler incorporated some form of warning in their catalog in 1973? A No, I did not know that. Q Okay. I guess you wouldn't know that they removed it in 1974 and never put it back in? A I don't recall that. Q You don't know why they would of done that? A No, I have no idea. Q Do you know when General Motors first warned of the hazards of asbestos on their brakes? A No, I do not. Q .. How about Bendix, do you know when they eventually warned, if ever? A No, I don't know. Q Do you know when Abex warned, if ever? A I don't remember any one of them except for the fact that they distributed our booklets and our catalogs, and our catalogs had warnings on the back page, which was the most prominent, except on the front page, on the back page of the catalog, they distributed those catalogs to their customers. So in that case they did notify their people. And just about all of the members bought P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 ------------------------------------------ P.rlw::l rrl w nri c:; 1 ::lnP - Rv Mr DPT.JJ('::l l 1 32 3 9 : 2 4 l 1 32 42 : 10 11 32 45 : 2l l 1 : 32 46 : 21 11 32 49 : 0 9 11 32 49: 28 11 32 52 03 11 32 54 22 l 1 32 58 25 l 1 33 02 : 12 11 33 : 06 : 00 11 33 : 06 : 06 : 33 :07: 03 11 : 3 3 l l : 03 11 33 13 : l 3 11 33 13 : l 3 11 33 : 15 : 0 9 l 1 33 : l 8 : 16 l 1 33 :18: 27 11 : 33 : 2l : l 5 1l : 33 :23 : l 2 l l 33 :25 : 09 l l 33 : 28 : 2 4 l l 33 : 31 : 03 our catalogs, and they bought a little blue book that we sent out just try to say don't create dust, it's not good for you. Q Didn't tell them why it's not good for you? A It might of said. It probably gave the same warning as was on the OSHA warning. Q And you understood that the Automotive Data Book that the FMSI produced was disseminated by your members to its customers, is that what you just told me? A I believe it was, yes. Q When you say their customers, give me an example of who you would be talking about, like a A I don't know their customers. Q A type, like a Midas, a Pep Boys, or something? A Some of them could have been Midas, some of them could have been Pep Boys. Some of them could be rebuilders. These are people that rebuild the brakes and all that stuff, some are distributors, and all of that ilk. Q And you understood that the warning that P.O. Box 12459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 -------------------------------------------- "P.u Mr n<=:>T.11r::l 11 33 : 36 : 03 11 33 : 48 18 11 33 : 48 18 11 33 : 48 18 11 : 33 : 48 21 : 1 33 : 49: 04 l 1 33 : 5 l 00 l 1 33 : 5 4 : 2l l 1 33 : 55 : 25 11 33 : 58 : 24 1l 34 00 : 27 11 34 01 : 04 34 06 : 00 11 34 07 00 1l :34 08 28 11 : 34 12 l 5 11 :34:15: 25 11:34:18:21 l 1 34 : 20: 03 l 1 34 : 22: 16 1.1:34:26:JO 11 34: 28 : 16 l 1 34:30:27 l 1 34 : 31 : 18 appeared in the back of that catalog was being given by your members to their customers? A Well that was our intent, but whether they actually gave it to them, I can't verify that. Q Okay. And with respect to that warning, it wasn't on the back cover, it was on the inside page of the back; right? A Well, I think some of them were on the back cover, and some of them were on the inside page cover. Q Were they typically colored catalogs, red or green? A Yes. They were red or blue, and then there were supplements that were paper covers so it depends. Some of them were -- some of them were on the back page, and some of them were on the facing the inside cover. Q So at least for those, and the records will show which had which, at least for those that were on inside of the back cover, you had to read through every page of that catalog before you get to that warning? A I couldn't put it on the front page, P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 -- --------------------------------------------- P. ~~ M r n <=>_L_nr .::l 11 : 34 33 : J9 l1 34 34: 03 11 34 35 : 03 l 1 34 37 15 11 34 41 07 11 : 34 42 ~ 3 1l : 34 43 : 21 1l : 34 47 24 l 1 34 47 2 4 11 34 49: 06 11 34 51 : 01 11 34 54 l 9 34 57 06 11 : 34 57 :21 l 1 35 : 01 07 l 1 35 : 01 15 11 : 35 : 07 l 8 11 35 10 : 06 11 35 l 3 : 03 1l 35 16 : 00 11 35 18 03 11 35 21 : 0 11 : 35 : 23 : l 2 11 :35 : 25 :07 could I? Q Why? A Front page like getting a book. You get something in there, a big, long warning. You should have the title of the book in the front. I had the title of my book on the front, and I had this on the next most prominent place, the back cover. Q The next to the last page? A No. Usually it was the back cover, and then times it was the inside facing the back cover. I can't remember. We put out two catalogs each year. Q Who dictated to you how the catalog was laid out? A Well we have what we called a Data Book Committee. And they didn't dictate. We sat around and they would go and make suggestions and recommendations, and from that we would go and assemble what we were going to put in the book, but they didn't dictate anything. Q Did anyone ever suggest that perhaps that warning should appear on the maybe second page of the catalog as opposed to last or next to the last P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 H':rl!.T.::lrrl w nric::l.::~np- P.v Mr nPT.llr.::l l l. : 3 5 : 2 8 : l 6 l 1 35 : 28 : 24 11 35 : 3 0 : D3 l 1 35 : 32 : l 5 -1 3 5 : 3 5 : J 0 11 : 35 : 37 : J3 l 1 : 35 :39: 03 11 : 35 43 : l 6 l 1 : 36 00 : 28 11 : 36 : 02 24 l 1 36 : 07 l 5 11 36 : 10 : 28 36 : 11 (,~ 11 : 36 : 17 06 07 11 : 36 : 1 9 : 21 l 1 : 36 : 24 : 21 11 : 36 : 26 :12 11 : 36 : 2 6 : 22 11 : 36 : 28 : 03 11 : 36 : 29 : 21 11 : 36 : 2 9 : 21 11 : 36 31 : 1 5 11 : 36 36 : 27 11 : 36 : 41: l 2 page? A No. Because I tried to tell you in the past there was more going on at the Institute beside asbestos. We were also trying to get the product data, the data book information out to the people. We are trying to get that information out to them. That wasn't the only thing we did. Q As Exhibit 33 I'm going to mark the minutes of the meeting of the Asbestos Study Committee dated February 16th, 1973. A This one here, would you like to have it back? Q Yes, sir. Thank you. And that was, I guess, based on what this says, that was held at the Institute office in Paramus, New Jersey? A Is that what it says? Q Yes. A That's where it was held. Q That's where you were; right? A Yes. Q And all the member of the Asbestos Study Committee who were present, their names would be recorded in these minutes; correct? A That is correct. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 w~rl.T.::lrrl nric:::l.::lnP- P,v Mr nPTilf'.::l l l 36 : 42 : ~ 5 l l 36 : 4 6 : 1 6 l l 36 : 4 8 : 2 8 l l : 36 : 52 : 2 4 l l : 36 : 56: 0 4 l 1 : 36: 58 : 24 11 37 0 3 : 0 9 l 1 37 c4 : l 2 11 37 07 12 11 37 10 : 10 11 37 11 : 0 6 11 37 1 1 : 2 5 37 : 1 4 : 0 3 11 : 37 : 1 6 : 18 11 : 37 18 : 15 11 37 1 9 : 2 4 11 37 22 : 27 11 37 2 6 : 15 11 37 : 2 8 : 2 7 11 37 : 3 0 : 2 5 11 37 : 3 4 : 0 6 1 1 37 35 : 2 4 11 37 4 2 : 2 1 11 : 37 : 4 5 : 2 2 Q For instance, at this particular meeting there was someone in attendance from Raybestos, from Firestone, from Carlisle, from Abex, from Bent, excuse me. This list of members who were not present, and then it shows that you were there and someone was there from Maremont; right? A That's what it shows. Q And for all of these minutes of this type and for other minutes, you always list who was present at the meetings? A I believe so. Q And when you did that, you were obviously taking roll and you were very accurate in establishing who was there and who wasn't? A I hope so. Q Sure. Okay. We can rely on that as evideQce as to who was at these meetings? A I believe so. There is always the possibility that somebody could have been there for part of a meeting or something else like that. Other than, that's the roster of the people that were there. Don't forget, people did come and go. Q On the very first page under Labeling Practices, you state, "In many drilling and P.O. Box 12459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Troy (518) 283-5064 _____________________________________________'-- , , Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 ~nTAT.::l rrl W Tlri c:: 1 .::lnP - "Rv Mr TIPT.11r.::l 11:37 47:21 1l 37 49: 24 1l 37 53 : 19 l 1 37 56 : 18 11 37 58: 00 1l 37 58 : 09 l 1 38 01 J 0 11 38 0 4 15 1l 38 : 06 : 21 11 38 : 08 : 24 11 38 : 09 : 21 l 1 : 38 11 : 09 38 15:25 11 38 17 :24 11 38 30 : 22 11 38 34: 24 11 38 37 : 06 11 38 : 40 : 03 11 38 : 43 : 09 11 3B 46 : 09 11 38 48 25 11 38 48 25 11 38 53 : 15 11 38 57 : 03 grinding operations without dust collectors, committee members indicated that the ten fibers per cc ceiling concentration had been exceeded." Do you see that? A Yes, I see that. Q Now as I think you told me before, you didn't go out and make studies yourself, right, you weren't out in the field taking air samples, this would have been information that was given to you by your members? A That was a member probably said that. Committee members indicated. Some one or two or more members indicated such and such. Q Right. And one of the other things that was discussed at this meeting was the work of the Mt. Sinai Hospital, or at least research affiliated with Mt. Sinai, you know, from last time that you had met with Dr. Selikoff and with the Dr. Nicholson, and perhaps some of their associates; right? A Yes. Q And the work of Mt. Sinai in large part focused on asbestos and asbestos hazards, and initially they were looking at insulators, but P.O. Box 12459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 ----------- ------------------------------------ l 1 39:00:l 5 l l 39 03: 00 l 1 39 05: l 2 l 1 : 39: 05: 22 11 39 : 09: 24 11 39 : 11 : 22 11 39 : 12 -2 11 39 15 : l 0 11 39 17 l 0 l 1 39 18 l 3 l 1 39 20 : 15 11 39 : 23 : l 2 .' 3 9 : 2 5 : 0 7 11 39 : 30: 25 11 39 : 3 4 18 l 1 39: 38 24 l 1 : 39: 40: 01 11 39 : 48 : l 3 11 39 : 48 : l 3 11 39 : 48 : " 3 11 39 : 50 : 00 11 39 : 52 : 09 l 1 39: 55: 27 l 1 :39:59:00 during this time period they started to look at the people who were exposed to brakes, do you recall that? A I don't like to make you repeat, but I don't really understand the question, I guess. Maybe Q Did you understand Mt. Sinai to be a medical institution that was interested in asbestos research? A Yes. And they were running a lot of research on asbestos exposures under Dr. Selikoff and Bill Nicholson, okay, yes. Q And at t hi s t i me in 1 9 7 2 , 1 9 7 3 , t he y began to look closely at whether or not people who were working with asbestos brakes were at increased risk for disease? A Right. Q You met with Dr. Selikoff, you furnished him information on one or two occasions? A Yes. Yes, I furnished him information on how brakes were processed, and things like that. I didn't give him any expertise in asbestos or asbestosis, or anything like that. That's his bailiwick. My bailiwick was just telling him how P.O. Box 12459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 ----------------------------------------------- wJ:;',rll.T~ rrl nri c: l ~np - P.u Mr nPT.ll("'~ l 1 : 40 : 03 : 09 l 1 4 0 c6 : 0 6 11 40 06 : 27 11 40: 0 9:21 l 1 40 :12 06 l l 40 : l 4 09 l 1 40 l 5 : 09 l 1 40 18 : 8 11 40 : 1 8 l 8 11 40: 21 09 l 1 40:2l :24 11 40:24:09 40 : 24 25 11 40 : 35 : 24 11 40 : 40 : 09 11 40 : 42 24 11 40:44:28 l l 40 : 50 : 1 0 l 1 40 : 5 3: 1 0 11 40 : 5 6 : 06 1l 4l : 05: l 3 l l : 4l 08 : 07 l l 4l l l : l 8 l l 4l l 3 : l 0 do you go about preparing a set of brakes to put on a car, that's all. Q How did Selikoff get hooked up with you, did he call the FMSI? A I sure as hell didn't volunteer to go over there. He called me. Q Why wouldn't you volunteer to go talk to Dr. Selikoff? A I'm not interested in looking for more trouble. Q Did you view Dr. Selikoff as a troublemaker? A Well, he was out, he was -- he had all these opinions about the asbestos, and I was getting under the impression that he was anti-asbestos, but at the very beginning he said, "We are not out to go and ban asbestos." And I wasn't going to volunteer. I don't go over to volunteer to anybody. Why should I go over to him? I got a full days work. Do you go out and volunteer for people when you are out at your office, you go out and tell people here I want to talk to you about something? Unless there is going to be some money in your pocket, you don't P.O. Box 12459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (SIB) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 --------------------------------------------------- H'.rl~A7:::l rrl \tJ n r i c::: 1 .::ln{C::. - P.u Mr n{C::.T.11r:::l ll 41:15:27 11 41 : 1 1 : a6 l 1 41 1 9 : 0 4 l 1 41 22 : J 0 11 41 23 : 27 l 1 41 35 : 27 11 41 45 : 09 11 41 50 : l 8 11 41 5 4 15 : 1 41 : 5 8 06 ! 1 42 03 : 00 11 : 42 03 : 0 9 42 11 : 00 11 42 13 : 25 11 : 42 15 : 28 l 1 42 : 20 : l 5 11 42 : 3 2 : 15 11 42 34 : 21 11 42 35 : 10 11 42 35 : 10 11 42 38 : 04 11 42 40 : 1 9 11 42 49: 27 11 42 53 : 28 go and talk to them. Q Now why would you think that? A That's my impression of you. Q You don't know me. A I know you as well as I want to know you. Q I'm sorry you feel that way. Nonetheless, as your minutes reflect, not only were your members saying that grinding asbestos brakes could cause a level of exposure in excess of ten fibers per cc, but Mt. Sinai was telling you that also? A Apparently, yes. This, again, was in 19 -- early '70s, this is when the asbestos problem was just becoming known. Q Becoming known to who? A To the industry and to other people. Q Are you familiar with a company called Nut urn? A Yes. Q Who is Nuturn? A They were Nuturn, a corporation. N-U-T-U-R-N, in as in Nancy, N-U-T-U-R-N. They were might have been some relationship to Maremont. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 ~rlr..::~ rrl IA1 n r i c: l .::~nP - "Rv Mr nPT.ll('.:=! 11 42 54 : 06 11 42 58 : 09 11 42 5 9: 06 11 43 02 : 04 11 43 05 : 1 5 11 43:07:24 11 43:10:07 11 43 11 : 15 l 1 43 15 : 00 11 43 18 : 00 l 1 43 20 : 00 11 43 21 15 43 :22 25 11 43 : 2 4 24 l 1 43: 25: 15 11 43 : 28 l 2 l 1 43 3 l 13 1l 43 34 l 5 l l 43 3 5 : l 5 l 1 43 3 8 : 07 l 1 43 : 3 9: 24 l 1 43 4l 06 l 1 43 44 l 2 l 1 43 45:18 Q Was Nuturn somehow affiliated with the Turner and Newell? A That's who it was, Turner and Newell was a British outfit. It carne after them, but some affiliation with Maremont in the states. Turner Newell being a British outfit, yes. Q They made brakes? A I see. I Q Did Nuturn make brakes? A Nuturn made brake linings, I believe. Q That contained asbestos? A I believe, yes, they did. Q Do you know anything about Turner and Newell? A Turner and Newell also was a brake lining manufacturer but was in Great Britain, and I knew nothing about them, but I know they were a brake lining manufacturer in Great Britain. Q Did you ever hear they were one of the biggest asbestos companies in the world? A I didn't know that. Q Did you ever hear of a young lady named Nellie Kershaw? A No. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 w]:;' r1 ,, .:::l r r1 n r i "' 1 :::l n 0 1J.:43 45:27 Q Do you think General Motors didn't know ~ 1 4 3 5 8 l 5 about the hazards of asbestos until the '70s? ~1 44 01 03 MR. KRAUSE: Objection. Foundation. 11 44 03 : 09 THE WITNESS: I don't believe so. 11 44 o5:18 BY MR. DeLUCA: 1144 07:21 Q Didyoueverhearofoneoftheir 1 1 4 4 1 1 : 0 6 consultants, Dr. Anthony Lanza? 11 44 13 : 00 A Never heard of him. ~ 1 44 : 1 5 : 00 MR. KRAUSE: Objection, foundation. 11 44 1 8 : 21 THE WITNESS: Never heard of him. 1 1 4 4 2 o : 1 9 BY MR . DeLUCA: 11 44 20:25 Q Do you know whether a consultant of r 44 28:03 General Motors published a textbook in 1938 about 11 44 32: 21 asbestosis? 11 44 33: 16 MR. KRAUSE: Objection, foundation. 11 44 34:24 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 1 1 4 4 3 7 : 2 4 BY MR. DeLUCA: 11 44 : 38: 03 Q So when you tell me that industry didn't 1 1 4 4 4 4 0 0 know, you really have no basis, or as Mr. Krause 1 1 4 4 4 7 : 2 5 said, there is really no foundation for you to say 1 1 4 4 5 0 : 1 2 that; correct? 11 44 52 : 00 MR. KRAUSE: No. My objection was 11 44 53 : 22 there was no foundation for your 11 44 55 : 07 question. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (SIB) 446-0582 1l 44 : 55 : 15 11 44 : 57 : 12 11 45 : 0 0 : 07 11 45 : 00 : 09 11 45 00 07 11 45 0 2 15 11 45 : 0 4 : 2 4 11 45 : 1 3 : 18 11 45 : 2 0 : 0 9 11 45 : 23 : 00 11 45 : 2 6 : 15 11 45 : 29 : 09 (~#~( 4 5 : 3 2 : 0 4 11 45 : 3 4 : 2 2 11 45 : 3 6 : 16 11 45 : 4 0 : 28 11 45 : 41 24 11 : 45 4 4 01 11 : 45 48 24 11 45 48 : 27 11 45 50 : 22 11 45 : 52 : 12 11 45 : 55 : 21 11 45 : 57 : 25 THE WITNESS: I am happy to take Mr -- is this Mr. Krause, agree with you. I don't know. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q So you don't know what industry knew? A I don't know what industry knew, no. Q So given this backdrop in this document of in the document that came before about the recognition that grinding could cause a level of exposure in excess of ten fibers per cc, the asbestos committee, the Asbestos Study Committee conducted one of these surveys to see whether people were labeling their products as required by law, do you remember that? A Yes, I do remember we made some kind of survey because some -- go ahead. Q That would have been one of those kinds of surveys that you would of wanted to keep confidential? A To get any kind of response, I had to make it confidential. Q And you did? A I did. To the best of my knowledge, I did. Sometimes I screw up and leave some things P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 --~------~----------------------------------------- w]:;' rl fA ;'l r rl n i lr <::: n;'l {:::> Rv Mr DPT.ll!"'ri l .L : 4 6 : 0 0 : 0 6 l 1 46 01 l 2 11 46 03 25 l 1 46 : l 3 : 0 9 11 46 : 1 6 : 2 8 l 1 46 : 21: 07 11 46 : 25 : 18 11 : 46 : 2 7 : 27 11 46 : 30 : 15 11 46 34 : 28 11 46 42 :22 11 46 : 43 : 12 ' 46 : 46: 03 11 46 : 46 : 03 11 46 47 : 03 11 46 4 9 : l 6 11 46 : 52 : 0 3 11 47 : 01 06 l 1 47 0l 06 l 1 47 0l 25 11 47 06 : 16 l 1 47 0 9 : 21 11 47 : l l : 2 8 l l 47 : l 5 : 04 in the file by mistake. Q And when you conducted that survey, you sent it to 25 members and 15 replied, and as this states, "The results indicated that the membership is not now labeling in accordance with the OSHA requirements, and while they interpret the OSHA regulations that require labeling where subsequent machining is expected, they are undecided as to exactly what they will do as regards labeling." A Can you show me the date on this, please? Okay. All right. Q February 16th, 1973. A Okay. Q Do you remember that? A Yeah, vaguely. Q Did it concern you that your members were selling products which could cause disease and they weren't warning? A You see, well there was a lot of feeling that the stuff was -- all the asbestos was embedded into the product and it was not being released by the grinding and all that, because if you grind something, sometime you grind it and you smooth it and you raise dust, but if you machine P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 ];' ,., .r :::l r ,., fA7 n lr ; c: n:::l {::> - "R \! M r n p. T' 1 1 ("' .::\ 11 47 : 17 l 5 11 47 21 l 0 11 47 2 3 : 0 6 11 47 25 : 06 11 47 27:24 11 47:32:01 11 47 32 : 1 2 11 47 35 : 1 9 11 47 37 06 11 47 37 21 11 47 38 21 11 47 3 9: 2 4 47 41 : 0 4 11 47 43 : 13 11 47:46:09 11 47:49:09 11 47:52:06 11 : 47 : 5 4 : 27 11 47 57 04 11 48 04 07 11 48 10 :15 11:48 12:10 11 48 16 : l 0 11 48 16 : l 8 it off, you make little chips but you don't make dust. I don't know how exactly they did their procedures. But they could, some of them felt they were not raising asbestos dust. They had to go and make measurements, the only way they could find out. Q Yeah, you can't find out how much dust is in the air unless you measure it; right? A Right. Q You have the results of those measurements? A I didn't have them. Q It was -- it says it was over ten fibers per cc; right? A Did they say it was over ten fibers per cc? Which one are we on? You go back and forth. Q This is Mt. Sinai Hospital; right? Let's go back to the document before this, the one that you the one that you wrote to Bendix. A Yeah. Well they were a responsible manufacturer and they wanted to know what the thing was, and I told them the best I could what I thought. Q Who was a responsible manufacturer? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 -------~--------------------------------- F.rlw.::l rrl W Dri s l .::lnP - Rv Mr DPT.ll~.::l 1~ 48 : 1 8 : l 9 l 1 48 l 9 : l 8 11 48 22 : 06 11 48 22 : 06 11 48 27 16 11 48 : 27 l 6 11 48 : 31 12 11 48 : 35 : 07 11 48 3 9 : 27 11 48 44: 06 11 48 4 8: 03 11 48 4 9: 1 5 1,.-..... , ,,.,,, 48 11 48 57 5 -~ 09 18 11 4 9 : 0 3 : 2 8 l 1 49: 07 :28 11 49 : 0 8 : 2 5 l 1 49:13:27 11 4 9 14 : 27 11 49 16 : 27 11 49 : l 8 : 0 9 1 1 4 9 : 2 I) : l 6 l 1 49 :22 :19 11 49 : 2 5 : 06 A Bendix. Q It was your former employer; right? A Yes. Q Do you think they were responsible about asbestos? A I believed they were. Q Why do you say that? A Because they were when I was there. Why do I say that? That's what I feel. Q What year were you there? You were there in the '60s; were you not? A I was there from 1948 until about 1966, I believe. Q I guess when you were there you didn't have access to their files on asbestos; did you? A Hell, no. Q Do you know what maybe Bendix knew in, I don't know, 19 4 9? A I have no idea. Q Okay. Since you don't know that, I mean how can you really think that they were responsible? You don't know. Just like earlier when you said you thought industry didn't know about asbestos, you really don't know? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 ~ .l 4 9 : 2 7 : l 2 l 1 49: 29: 04 11 49 : 31 2 4 11 4 9 : 3 4 l 3 11 49 : 37 : 3 11 49 : 3 9 : 09 11 49 : 42 : l 0 11 49 : 4 9 : 0 6 11 49 : 50 : 00 11 49 : 52 25 11 : 49 : 5 4 0 9 11: 49: 55 : ~ 2 r:*~ri~:::- 4 9,,~:><l'~ ' ,:",~ 11 49 55:: 8 58 : 00 11 49 59: 25 l 1 50 00 : 09 l 1 50 03 :18 11 50 : 04 : 07 11 50 05 : 0 9 l 1 50 07 04 l 1 50 : 07 21 11 50 : 1 0 : 13 11 : 50 13 : 07 11 : 50 15 : 06 A They were honorable in all their treatment with me and they did what they said when they were doing contracts, they did the best they could on their product. Asbestos was not a concern at that time. I didn't know anything about asbestos. I wasn't responsible for it if it was a concern at that time. I was in sintered metallic at that time. Q You think they you didn't know anything about asbestos at that time because they didn't want you to know anything about asbestos at that time? A No. I think you are just jumping at a whole bunch of the conclusions to prove your case. No. Q I have got the documents to do that, sir. MR. HARKINS: Objection. Move to strike. THE WITNESS: I am somewhat fed up with your line of questioning, frankly, but go ahead. Everything I say, everybody is a crook out there. Even the fellow who is coming in on the airplane. He probably came in on GM's private jet. P.O. Box 12459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 -----~~----- --------------------------------- 11 50 : 18 : 03 l 1 50 : 20 : l 2 11 50 : 2 6 : 2 4 11 50 29: 1 9 11 50 36 : 06 11 50 38 : 03 11 50 : 39: 21 11 50 : 42 06 11 50 : 44 27 J;-:rliAI;:'l rrl IA7 n r i c: l ;:'lnP - P,v Mr nr=>T.llr';:'l I mean, you have a whole attitude against these people, don't you? Am I supposed to rock back and forth like that too? MR. DeLUCA: Let's take a break. MR. PIAZZA: The time is 11:42, we will take a pause in the testimony of Mr. Drislane. (A short luncheon recess was taken.) P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 1 i. : 5 1 : 4 9 : 2 4 12 : 52 : 1 3 : 27 12 : 52 : 16 : 00 12 : 52 : 1 6 : 16 12 : 52: 16 : 22 12 52 18 : 03 12 52 1 8 : 25 12 52 21 :1 0 12 52 25: 21 12 52 2 9 : 0 0 12 52 : 32 : 21 12 52 : 35 : 0 9 52 : 37 i '' ~. ' 12 : 52 : 37 09 09 12 : 52 : 41 03 12 52 43 :18 12 52 51: 03 12 52 5 4 : 06 12 52 : 5 9 : 10 12 53 : 0 4 01 12 : 53 : 07 21 12 53 11 24 12 53 1 4: 28 12 : 53 : 17 : 21 MR. PIAZZA: The time is now 12:43, we will resume the testimony of Mr. Drislane. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q Good afternoon, sir. A Good afternoon. Q I want to go back to that area that I started talking to you about before the lunch break, specifically what was known by the FMSI and its members about the levels of exposure to asbestos that would occur when brakes were used or installed or removed, okay? A Yes. Q I want to turn back to Exhibit 33. I began to ask you some questions about it, and I have some more. This was the February 16th, 1973 minutes of the meeting of the Asbestos Study Committee, and with respect to levels of exposure it goes on to talk about it is the view of most members of this committee that the five fibers per cc, I believe this says, TWA, that's time weighted average, is exceeded in many areas, such as inspection, drilling and grinding where there is no adequate dust collection machinery, and this P.O. Box 12459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 - -------------------------------------------- w~riiAl~ rrl n r i c::: l ~np - P.u Mr nt=>T.lll'~ 1L 53 :21 :12 12 53 24 : 12 12 53 26: 25 12 53 29: l 8 12 53 32 04 12 53 34 06 l 2 53 35: 28 12 53 37 : l 0 l 2 53 40: 06 12 53 4? 09 12 53 43 : l 6 12 53 46 : 21 53 48:25 12 53 53: 06 12 53 54 : 09 12 54 00: 21 l 2 54 09: 25 12 54 14 : 22 12 54 17 06 12 54:20:06 12 54 : 22 : 03 12 54 :23: 21 12 : 54 : 26 : 09 12 : 54 :31 : 19 could happen in garages where subsequent drilling and grinding is often required and where there is no adequate dust collection equipment. Did I read those reasonably accurately? A Yes. But is this my letter to Mr. Kelly, is that it or what? Q No, sir. This is the minutes of the Asbestos Study Committee that you took down, and that meeting was held in February of '73. A These are the minutes, okay, all right. Q I am just wondering if those two sentences comport with your understanding as to levels of exposure and when exposure can occur from asbestos brakes? A Can you just drop it down so I can get that first sentence in there? Forget it, I guess. Maybe the most members that the five fibers TWA is exceeded, okay, yes. Q Is that, those two sentences comport with your understanding of what could occur? A At around that time, yes. Q You understand a time weighted average is a method of evaluating exposure over the course of a working day? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 wJ<:rlw~rrl nri.c:;l~np Rv Mr nPT....uc_a_ 1 L. : 5 4 : 3 2 l 2 1 2 : 5 4 : 3 4 :) 7 12 : 54: 35 : 25 2~ 5 4 : 3 7 : L 5 l 2 54 46 : 2l l 2 54 46 : 2l l 2 54 4 6 : 2l l 2 54 47 : 27 l 2 54 : 51 06 12 54 53 : 06 12 : 54 54 03 12 : 55 : 01 : 2 4 (i~J~ 5 5 : 0 2 : 1 6 12 : 55 : 0 3 : 2 5 l 2 55 : 0 4 : l 2 l 2 55 : 0 6 : l 3 l 2 55 : 1 0 : 06 l 2 55 : 1 3 : l 8 l 2 55 : 17 : l 3 l 2 55 : 20 : 0 4 l 2 55 : 21 1 8 l 2 55 : 24 l 8 l 2 55 26 : l 8 l 2 55 28 : 1 2 A Over a period of time. I believe it was a working day, but I'm not sure. Q Usually eight hours? A Well, I can't. It was a time weighted average over some period of time, whether it was eight hours or not, I'm not sure. Q And do you understand that to mean that there could be exposures that are higher than the average and lower than the average during the course of the day? A Well, you mean peaks rather than the time weighted average? Q Right. A Yes, that's possible. Q But it was your understanding at that time that the time weighted average averaging the short-term high intensity exposures with lower exposures was still in excess of the OSHA limit? A No. The OSHA limit was the time weighted average limit, as I recall. Q Right. And that was five fibers per cc? A So it was not over the limit. Q Well it say "exceeded," is exceeded? A Okay. Where it says "exceeded," yes. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 1L 55 30 : 1 9 12 55 33 : 27 12 55 36: 10 12 : 55 39: J3 1 2 : 5 5 : 4 0 : 'J 6 12 : 55 : 43 : 00 l 2 55 : 45 : 0 4 12 55 : 46: 27 l 2 5 5 : 5 G: 2 5 12 55 : 52 : 0 7 l 2 55 : 55 : l 6 l 2 55 : 58 : 21 ' 56 : 00 : 27 l 2 56 : 0 4: 03 l 2 56 : 05: 1 5 l 2 56 : 08 : 07 12 56 : 13: 15 l 2 56 : 1 8: l 9 12 56 : 21 : 1 5 l 2 56 : 24 : 09 12 : 56 : 2 6 : l 9 l 2 : 56 :30 : 03 l 2 : 56 :32 06 12 : 56 : 34 07 Q Okay. And it goes on to say that these OSHA requirements that we have talked about at length might not be applicable to small garages, did you know that? A I don't know whether I knew that or not. I never was concerned with that. I -- Q Do you know whether that is true? A I would think that some of the small garages exceeded that level. Q But with respect to whether or not they were subject to OSHA, whether OSHA applied? A Well, they were going to be subject to OSHA. If they were subject to OSHA at that time, I'm not sure. Q Fair enough. And with respect to labeling under OSHA, that was discussed and it says, "most labeling -- let me back up. It says, "In discussion of the reasons to support or oppose labeling requirements, the question was raised as to whether objections centered around the cost of the labeling." Do you remember cost discussions? A Apparently, yeah. Q Okay. And members indicated that the direct cost of labeling could be minimal. Would P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 - - - - ---~------------------------------------- n nH. lAl ;:l r w f) r i c:: l ;:l n p - "R il M r rf) p T 11 ;:l 1L 56 37 : 25 12 56 41 : 09 12 56 41 : 28 12 56 43: 25 12 : 56 : 46: 21 12 : 56 : 51 : 09 12:56:53:10 12 56 56 : 15 12 56 56 : 24 12 56 58 28 12 57 01 03 12 57 03: 01 : 57 07 : 03 12 : 57 10 : 15 12 : 57 14 : 07 12 57 : 16 : 12 12 57 : 1 8 : 21 12 : 57 : 1 9: 18 12 : 57 : 23 : 06 12 57 : 26 : 09 12 57 : 27 : 03 12 57 : 30 : 12 12 : 57 : 30 : 24 12:57:32:06 that mean like the cost of printing a warning on a carton? A Yes. And the carton you could put whatever you want on a carton. In other words, as long as it will fit without making a bigger box. Q It says, "Most labeling could be put on by the box manufacture with little cost to the friction material manufacturer"? A That's what they felt, yes. Q It says, "The rejoinder to this was that the members felt that it was not the direct cost that bothered them, rather it is the indirect cost of the customer reaction to the warning label"? A That's what some people expressed. Q What's your understanding of their basis for having that concern? In other words, I don't understand that. A You do too understand it. Q Well, I think I do, but I want to hear you explain it to me. A You want to hear me explain it, but you understand it? Q I think I do. A They didn't want to go -- they were P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 - -------~------------------------------------------ H' rh.r :;, r r1 'iAl n r i c:: l :;, n 0 _np_R1L M r T,11 r ::l l L 57 :32 : 27 l 2 57 : 36 : 0l 12 57 38 l 3 12 : 57 38 l 3 l 2 57 : 39 : 21 12 57 43 : 24 12 57 48 1 3 12 57 :52 l 5 l 2 57 : 55 : J 6 12 57 : 57 : 27 l 2:58 00:27 12 : 58 03 : 06 58 03:13 l 2 58 :18: J0 l 2 58 : 22 : 10 l 2 58 :26: 24 12 : 58 30 : l 0 12:58 30:24 l 2 :58 31 l 3 l 2 58 : 37 00 l 2 58 : 39: l 8 l 2 58 : 39:18 l 2 58 4l : 00 l 2 58 45 : 09 concerned about the warning maybe scaring away some of the customers from using it. Q Okay. A That's your understanding of it? Q That is, yes. That is. And they were concerned that again going back to manufacturers from Canada or Mexico, they wouldn't be subject to that law, and they could sell products without a warning and what would happen that would hurt domestic manufacturers sales; is that fair? A That could have been some peoples' opinion, yes. Q As Exhibit 34, I'm going to mark the minutes of the annual meeting of the FMSI on June 27th and 28th, 1973, and this was the meeting that was held in Vail, Colorado. You remember that of course? A Yes, I do. Q And that was the meeting where Ike Weaver got up and made a presentation that we have talked before? A That's true. Q And from the minutes on page 4 it says, uAnother question had to do with the P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 --~------ Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 1L 58 50: 13 12 58 53: 12 l 2 58 56 : 00 12 58 5 9: 18 12 59 : 0 l : 27 12 59 : 05: 00 12:59:07:21 12 : 59 :13 : 24 12 59:18: 06 ' 12 59:23: l 8 12 :59 :27: 03 12 : 59 30 : l 0 ,,,.', 12 59 30:10 59: 35: l 0 12 59:37: 04 12 : 59 : 41 : 00 12 : 5 9 : 47 : 12 12 59: 49: 25 12 59: 56 : 03 13 : 00 : 00 : 06 13 : 00 : 01 : l 5 13 : 00 : 03 : 22 13 : 00 : 1 3 : l 3 13 : 00 :16: 28 recommendation that Mr. Weaver made that all boxes or cartons containing friction materials have the OSHA label imprinted thereon." Was there an argument at that time or at least a discussion as to whether every box of brakes required a warning, or just those that would be subsequently machined? A I think perhaps there may have been some members who had the feeling that the asbestos was locked in and would not be -- would not be grounded to the atmosphere. That was their opinion so they didn't feel that the label was necessary. Q Do you know what if any studies or any other information they based that on? A No. A seat of the pants. Q And Mr. Weaver it says suggested there was always the possibility of additional cutting, drilling or grinding, and he felt that OSHA labels should be used on all boxes. Was that your opinion also at the time? A I think I generally agreed with Ike on that one, on that particular one, yeah. Q Now you -- you raised an interesting issue, and this is Exhibit 3 to the first part of P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 H' r1 t.r ::. r r1 Ji\7 n. r i ,<::;. l rl n p 1j 00 : 2l : 01 13 00 : 2 5 : 01 13 : 00 :2 9: J7 13 : 00 : 35 : 00 13 00 : 38 : 28 13 00 3 9: 0 9 13 : 00 45 : 09 13 : 00 : 48 : l 5 13 : 00 : 52 : 00 13 : 00 53 :15 13 : 00 56 : 00 13 : 00 : 57 : 10 -. .. 0 1 0 5 : 2 1 13 : 01 : 0 9 : 12 13 : 01 : 1 7 1 9 13 : 01 : 17 1 9 13 : 01 : 1 8 22 13 : 01 : 1 9: 03 l 3 : 01 : 25 : 06 13 : 01 : 28 : 21 13 : 01 : 2 9 : l 8 13 : 01 : 32 : l 8 -3 : 01 : 3 3 : 27 l 3 : 01 : 36 : 27 your deposition, and it's the text of Ike Weaver's address before the membership of the FMSI in Vail in 1973. And you would of prepared this, of course, as part of the -- as a supplemental to the minutes; correct? A Well, he gave me a copy of his address and I entered them into the minutes, yeah. Q Now I just want to establish that this is document that you prepared as Executive Director, it was an exhibit to the minutes? A Yes, I did. Q Okay. And getting back to what you just started to talk about, you started to say that some people thought that the asbestos fibers were somehow locked in to the brakes and they wouldn't be released when they were drilled or ground; correct? A They were locked in to the friction article, the brake lining, not -- well, into the brake lining. Q Okay. But that was -- that was an argument at the time that there was something about them that they were locked in, and they wouldn't get out so that they could hurt people? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 w~ rlT.T.::l r rl n r ; c:: 1 .::l n ~ - p, \. M r n ~ T,l] ("" .=! 1~ : 01 39: l 3 l 3 : 01 43 : l 6 l 3 : 0l 44 l 2 l 3 01 48 00 l 3 01 4 8 : l 2 l 3 01 4 8 : 12 13 01 : 51 : 2 l 13 0l : 55 : 24 13 : 0l 58 : l 5 l 3 : 02 01 l 8 l 3 : 02 02 : 27 l 3 02 : 04 12 02 : 07 01 l 3 02 10 : l 0 l 3 02 12 : 15 13 02 15 : 12 13 : 02 : 18 : 18 13 02 21 0 9 13 02 24 1 9 13 02 25 : 22 13 02 30 : 09 13 02 34 19 13 : 02 34 l 9 l 3 : 02 39: 06 A Some of the minority of the people felt that way, yes. Q You would characterize that as a minority view? A Yes. Q When Ike got up and talked, he said that the people who made asbestos textiles, like cloth or gloves, had argued that they were somehow treated or coated so that the fibers wouldn't get out and get airborne? A Where are we getting this from? Q Well, it is from right here. He says, "There has been much advertising of asbestos textile products citing the benefits of treatments or coatings that purport to lock the fiber into the product in such a way that it cannot become airborne during use." He goes on to say that while these claims are probably true to varying degrees depending on the nature of the product, its use in the way it is handled, I do not think this claim is at all applicable to friction materials. A That's what he said. Q Okay. And that in your estimation at P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 l .j : 0 2 : 4 3 : 2 5 l 3 02 45 : 24 l 3 02 4 9: 28 l 3 : 02 : 52 : l 2 l 3 : 02 : 56 : 25 l 3 : 03 : 00: 12 13 : 03 : 05 : 07 l 3 : 03 : 08 0 9 13 : 03 : 0 8 12 13 : 03 : 12 : 07 13 : 03 : 15 : 06 13 : 03 :16 : 27 : 03 : 1 9: 07 13 : 03 : 22 12 13 : 03 : 2 4 2 2 13 : 03 : 27 04 13 : 03 : 31 03 13 : 03 : 31 1 9 13 : 03 : 36 : 07 13 : 03 : 38 : 12 13 : 03 : 40 : 12 13 : 03 : 42: 1 9 13 : 03 45 : 00 13 : 03 45 : 07 that time was the majority view of your membership? A I would think more people believe that there was a problem with the grinding of friction materials than were not concerned, that's what if that's what you are asking. My 80, 79-year-old brain is unable to keep up with your loaded questions. Q I'll try to shorten them up for you, and if you need me to rephrase, just tell me, okay? He goes on to say that -- you are talking about grinding and this is the next thing he says, "I have been appalled to learn of a number of instances where this problem has occurred and some of these cases involve people that certainly might have been expected to know better." Do you remember that? A I see it there so I remember that. I don't remember that I put it down there, but I obviously put it down there. These are quotes from Ike Weaver, okay? Q Okay. And do you know who he was talking about? A I do not know who he was talking about. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 1~ : 03 47 : 15 l 3 : 03 4 9 : 21 l 3 : 0 4 1 3 : c7 1 3 : 0 4 1 7 Cl 9 13 : 04 : 22 J1 13 04 : 24 06 13 04 : 27 13 13 : 04 30 : 10 13 04 32 : 1 6 13 04 36 : 00 13 : 04 40: 04 13 : 04 40 : 1 5 04 44: l 0 13 : 04 46 : 06 13 : 04 48 : 10 13 : 04 50: 2 4 13 04 54: 21 13 04 57 : 15 13 : 05 01 : 06 13 : 05 04: 12 13 : 05 : 08 : 18 l 3 : 05 11 : 09 1 3 : 0 5 1 5 : ') 6 13 : 05 :17 : 2 4 I haven't the slightest idea. Q I want to go toward the end of his speech. He said, "In summary, the OSHA and EPA asbestos regulations are a lot more lenient than many interested and concerned parties wish. We can expect pressure to have them tightened. Friction materials manufacturers should support asbestos industry efforts to have them mitigated in hopes they aren't -- in hopes they at least aren't made more severe." And that occurred; did it not? A I don't know. You read -- I -- where would it have occurred? I don't know. Q Well the friction materials manufacturers would be the members of the FMSI; right? A Should support asbestos industry efforts to have them mitigated in hopes that at least -that's probably a good idea. Q You think it was a good idea to try to resist tightening the asbestos regulations? A I think it is a good idea to go and change regulations to the level where people can actually do them, can put them into effect and all that on a factory level, you can go and do P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 ------------------------~-------------------------- ~.rlw::~ rrl W n r i c:: l ::~n,::. - P.v Mr n,::.T.llr'::! 1 .:l 0 5 2 2 : 0 4 13 05 2s : l 8 13 05 27 24 13 : 05 32 09 13 05 32 09 13 05 35 : 0 9 13 05 37 : 24 13 05 40 : 25 13 : 05 40 : 25 13 : 05 44 : 10 13 : 05 45 : 2 4 13 : 05 : 48 : 15 05 : 51 : 22 13 : 05 : 52 : 06 13 : 05 : 52 : 24 13 : 05 : 56 : 24 13 : 05 : 59: 25 13 : 06 03 : 16 13 : 06 04 1 9 13 : 06 07 18 13 : 06 10 : 24 13 : 06 12 : 03 13 : 06 13 : 1 8 13 : 06 14 : 28 anything in a tiny laboratory with a couple fibers. We are talking about getting this thing into a real factory. It gets a little bit of a problem. Q Sir, we are talking about companies that were manufacturing asbestos brakes. We are not talking about small mom and pop operations, are we? A I'm not sure which one we are talking. I think we go back and forth. Q Didn't you count among your members some of the largest industrial corporations in America at that time? A Yes. Q Okay. Those people certainly had resources available to them to do research and to come up with new innovative solutions? A I would thi~k so, yeah. Q But the problem with that is that those resources cost money; right? We talked earlier about -- MR. KRAUSE: Objection, foundation. MR. DeLUCA: -- expensive? THE WITNESS: You keep coming back P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (SIB) 438-0 126 Troy (SIB) 2835064 Schenectady (SIB) 355-9216 Clifton Park (SIB) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 P.v Mr n~=>T lll'rl 13 : 06 :16: 04 to money. Money is a measure of what 13 :06:18:10 effort it takes to go and do things. A l 3 : 06 : 21: 04 lot of things are very, very difficult to l 3 :06 :23: 06 do unless you put a lot of money into the 13 : 06 : 25 : 10 darn thing, yes. But, you know, part of 13 : 06 : 27 : 16 it is the difficulty of doing things. 13 : 06 : 28: 27 Things don't automatically just come out 13 : 06 : 32 : 21 just by pushing a button and say clean up 1 3 : 06 :35 : 21 the asbestos. You have a million things 13 : 06 : 38: 12 to do. You have your factory work rooms, 13 : 06 : 39: 21 you have your exhaust systems, you have 13 : 06 : 41 : 00 your disposal of the product, shipping of :06:44:12 the product, you have your marking of 13 : 06 : 45 : ~ 6 boxes. God, this goes on and on and on. 13:06:48:07 This isn't like what you apparently feel 13 : 06: 51 :13 it is. So cost is a part of it. 1 3 : o 6 : 5 3 : 2 4 BY MR . DeLUCA : 13 : 06 : 53: 24 Q Sir, as Exhibit 35 I am going to mark the 1 3 : 0 7 : 0 1 : 0 6 minutes of the meeting of the Asbestos Study 1 3 : 0 7 : 0 2 : 2 2 Committee from June 14th, 1974, and I want to show 1 3 : 0 7 : 0 8 : l 9 you the top of that and see if you can explain 1 3 : 0 7 : 1 1 : 0 3 something to me. Did you have a stamp that said 1 3 : 0 7 : 1 3 : 2 4 "Unconfirmed Minutes"? 13 : 07 :16: 09 A I don't think I did, but I might have. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 "'--------,------------------------------------- f" r'l TA7 :::l r r'l W n r i C::: l :::l n ;:::. P.u Mr n.:>T Llf"'r! 13 : 07 21 : 09 l 3 : 07 24 2l l 3 : 07 28 03 1 3 : o7 4 o : a o 13 : 07 40 : 00 13 : 07 40 : 0l 13 : 07 40 :00 13 : 07 40 : 03 l 3 : 07 43 : : 2 13 : 07 45 : 06 13 : 07 47 : 04 13 07:49:15 07 51 04 13 : 07 54 : 21 13 : 07 57 09 l 3 : 07 57 l 8 l 3 : 08 00 : l 8 13 : 08 00 :22 l 3 08 03 : c6 13 08 05 : l 8 13 08 07 l 2 13 : 08 07 18 13 : 08 : 1 2 00 13 : 08 : 1 3 : 28 You see before we sent minutes out, we would send them out to the chairman and to our attorney to go and check them over first, so we might of stamped them "Unconfirmed Minutes." So these here may not be confirmed minutes. Q What was the purpose to sending them out to lawyer? A Don't you think I had a right to have my lawyer review the minutes of meeting we had? Q I don't see why that would be a problem. A Don't you think I had a right to have the chairman of the committee to go and review the minutes to see them before I sent them out? Q Was it to check for accuracy? A Yes. Q Generally your minutes were pretty accurate; were they not? A Well, I hoped they were. But they did get reviewed by my attorney and by the chairman of the committee. I think that is reasonable thing to do. Q I wasn't insinuating that it was unreasonable. I just asked the question, sir. A You got your answer. P.O. Box 12459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 ------------------------------------------------- P.v Mr DPT.lll'ri 1 .:l : 0 8 : 1 5 : 0 7 13 : 09 22 : 12 13 : 08 :26 : 24 13 : 0 8 : 2 9 : D9 13 : 08 31 : 0 9 13 : 08 35 : 03 13 : 08 38 : 00 13 : 08 38 : 27 l 3 : 08 4l 27 13 : 08 4 6 : 28 13 : 08 49: 0 0 l 3: 08 5l : ~ 9 : 08 55 : 12 13 : 08 : 57 : 04 13 : 08 : 58 : 24 13 : 09: 01 : 09 13 : 09 : 04: 22 l 3:09 : 08: 03 l 3 : 0 9 : 1 0 : 8~ 1 3 : 09 : 11 : ~ 8 13 : 09 : 13 : ~ 0 13 : 09 :13 :27 13 : 09 :15 : l 8 13: 09:18:l 5 Q Thank you. And one of the sections in these minutes concerns a meeting, I guess, of the American Industrial Hygiene Association, did you were you familiar with that organization? A Not really, but as I see the word up there now, maybe we -- maybe I did go. I don't recall this at all. Q Do you remember specifically the paper that was authored by Dr. Rohl, along with Dr. Nicholson and Dr. Langer that was entitled "Asbestos Exposure During the Brake Lining Maintenance and Repair" that it focused on brake repair in New York City? A Well, I don't know that it did. I think it might have been Rockland County. Q It says here in your minutes that this paper concerned itself with exposure to asbestos during brake relines, primarily in New York City shops? A Okay. It must have been New York City shops then. Q Then it says, "Some of the housekeeping conditions in these shops were deplorable." Further, "They are perhaps no worse than in other P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 l .j : 0 9 : 2 2 : 1 6 l 3 : 09 :24 06 13 : 09 : 2 4 12 13 : 09 : 26 : 27 13 : 09 : 28 : 03 13 : 09: 30 : 13 13 : 09 : 33 : 24 13 : 09 : 38 : 03 13 : 09 : 40 :: 8 13: 09: 44: 12 13 : 09: 46 : l 2 13 : 09 : 4 9 : J1 09: 52: 27 13 : 0 9 : 55 : l 9 l 3 : 09 : 59: 25 13 : 10 01 : 15 13 : l 0 03 : 27 13 : 10 : 08 07 13 10 12 ' 6 13 10 14 01 13 10 l 6 : -5 13 : 10 1 9 : 09 13 : 10: 20 : l 0 13 : 10 : 23 : 0 9 shops throughout the country." Do you recall that? A At that particular time they probably were pretty bad. Q What was the Institute's reaction when they learned of this finding in this paper? A I don't remember what the reaction was. I circulated this information to my members. Q Do you think that anything occurred above and beyond you circulating the information? A Well, during this entire time things were phasing in, people were gradually adopting asbestos regulations and adopting controls in the workplace to cut down on asbestos exposure, yes. There were things going on all the time because of this whole mushrooming problem. Q Those things that were going on were occurring first at least in the factories where these products were made; correct? A That, and there were notices going out that they had a problem to go and control asbestos in the brake shop too. Q That wasn't until a little bit later? A Well, you see things didn't happen. Say P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 wF.rlwri rrl nri R 1 rinP - "Rv Mr DPT,llrri 13:10:25:12 13:10:28:12 13 :10 : 31 : 28 13 :10 : 36 :06 13 :10 : 38 : 18 13 :10 : 41 : 15 13 :10 : 43 : 25 13 : 10 : 46 : 09 13 :10 : 49: 00 13 : 10 : 52 : 24 13 :10 : 55 :18 13 :10 : 59:21 11 : 03: 25 13 :11 : 09 : 00 13:11:09:27 13 :11 :13 : 27 13 :11 :17 : 00 13 :11 : 20 : 27 13:11 :23:15 13 :11 : 26 : 27 13 :11 :28 : 00 13 : 11 : 30 :18 13: 11 : 31 : 27 13 :11 : 34: 21 you have a publication date that the booklet was put out on November 1976, or something like that, that thing didn't just crystallize and develop all of a sudden. It took a while to write the thing, get the information in, so over a two or three year period before the thing would actually be handed out to people. We weren't the fastest people in the world. We tried our best to be fast. These things don't happen all at once. Q One of this -- one of the things that we may have not we may not have talked about yet, we talked grinding and drilling and sanding, but we haven't talked blowoff. Can you tell the jury what blowoff is? A Generally speaking you got a car sitting up on a rack. And you take could be a truck too, so don't pin me to just a car. You take off the wheel, and you go and take an air hose and you blow the dust out. That's what blowing it off is. Is that what you are talking about? Q Yeah, I think so. And that was a fairly common work practice? A That was a common workplace practice before we started going after them. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 H.rlt.T::I rrl w n r i c:: l ::In I"' - P.u Mr ni"'T.ll!""_L:l 1J : 11 : 37 00 13 : 11 4l 09 13 :11 43: 22 13 : 11 47 : 2 2 13 : 11 48 : 15 -1 3 : 1 1 4 8 6 13 : 11 :51 07 13 : 11 : 52 07 13 : 11 : 5 4 : 25 13 : 11 : 58 : 10 13 : 12 : 00 : 24 13 : 12 : 01 : 00 (. 1 2 0 3 : 2 4 13 : 12 06 :-2 13 : 12 08 : 03 13 : 12 13 : 1 9 13 : 12 : 16 : 15 13 12 : 20: 16 13 12 : 25 : 04 13 : 12 : 27 : 09 13 : 12 : 30 : 19 13 :12 : 33 : 24 13 : 12 : 36 : 21 13 : 12 : 39 : 18 Q When mechanics would take compressed air and blowoff the brakes or blowout the brakes, that would cause concentrations of asbestos dust to get up into the air? A That is correct. Q Including levels that were excessive? A I don't know what the levels were. Q Here it says that the dust concentrations during the blowoff is in excess of the five fibers per cc's allowance, and this is from Rohl's paper. A Okay. Q Were you aware of that before Rohl? A No, I don't think so. Rohl was one of the Mt. Sinai people, I believe. Q Yes, sir. Another interesting thing in this particular document, I was wondering if you had any knowledge about it, and this is from page -- I think it is five. It says that the most significant asbestos use in the automotive field is in brake lining. Clutch facings are probably close second. However there is asbestos used in air conditioning ducts for some Ford Motor Company vehicles. This apparently is the only significant use of asbestos other than in friction materials. P.O. Box 124S9 Albany, NY 12212-24S9 Albany (SI8) 438-0 126 Troy (SI8) 283-S064 Schenectady (SIB) 355-9216 Clifton Park (SIB) 383-1241 Fax (SI8) 446-0S82 ~--------------------------------------- ><'. n .r;::) r n W _Dr_ i s l .::1 n P - R v M r TJ P T, 11 r .::1 1.):12:42:24 13 :12 43 : 21 13 12 44 89 13 l 2 48 18 13 : 12 5 0 : 15 13 : 12 55 : 15 13 : 12 58: 06 13:13 00:21 13 : 13 : 01 04 13 :13 : 02 22 13 :13 : 06 : 00 13 :13 : 07 : 21 13 :10: 06 I ~" 13 : 13 :1: 18 13 : 13 :1 4 19 13 : 13 :16: 15 13:13:19:06 13:13 28:12 13:13 28:12 13 : 13 28 12 13 : 13 28 12 13 :13 28 12 13 : 13 : 28 12 13:13: 28 12 Do you see that? A I see it. Q Do you know anything about Ford's use of asbestos in air conditioning ducts? A Not at all. What is this article again? My memory. I don't have the greatest memory in the world. Is this from a set of minutes or what? Q Yes, sir. A This is the minutes of the asbestos. That didn't come from me. Whatever that thing there is, somebody said that. Q Well I understand that, sir. You are the one that prepared these; correct? A Yes. But what did -- is somebody -- did somebody give me a report, and I am putting the report down there? Is that what I am doing? Q I am not trying to attribute these statements to you, sir. I am just asking if you have any more infor -A Can you bring it back to where it was so I can see the thing? Q Sure. A Where are we? MR. KRAUSE: Why don't we just P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 ----,-~--------------------------------------- P.rl1.v~rrl W nri.c::l~nP - P.v Mr nPT.llf'~ 13 13 :30:03 stipulate what the minutes say what the 13 13 :31 :15 minutes say, and that's all we are doing. 13 : 13 : 35 : 09 MR. DeLUCA: Why don't you let me 13 :13 : 37 : 04 try my case the way I want to try. 13 : 13 40 : 00 MR. KRAUSE: If you want to waste 13 : 13 41 07 your time. 13 13 44 00 THE WITNESS: I have no idea what 13 13 46 : 09 Ford Motor Company did. 13 :13 47 : 09 MR. DeLUCA: All right. Fair l 3 :13 49: 00 enough. 36. 1 3 : 1 4 o 5 : 1 5 BY MR . DeLUCA : 13:14 o5: 15 Q As 36 I am going to mark a letter dated 14:08:04 February 9, 1976 from John Marsh of Asbestos 1 3 : 1 4 : 1 3 : 0 1 Manhattan to you. Do you know Mr. Marsh well? 13:14:17 18 A I knew Mr. Marsh professionally. 13 :14 : 22 28 Q One of the last things he said in this 1 3 : 1 4 : 3 6 : 0 1 meeting was that there is no question that 1 3 : 1 4 : 3 8 l 3 excessive amounts of asbestos dust exist in many l 3 : 1 4 : 4 2 0 6 brake service centers, and it is incumbent upon 1 3 : 1 4 4 4 : 2 7 the industry to take an aggressive approach in 1 3 : 1 4 4 7 0 9 providing its customers with information on the 1 3 : 1 4 : 5 0 : 0 0 safe handling of asbestos containing products. Do 13 :14 52 : J 7 you see that? 13 :14 52 : 27 A Yes, I do. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 ~rlv.1.::l rrl W TJri .~ l .::lnP - Rv Mr TJpT, r.rt 13 :14 :53 : ~ 3 Q Do you think industry took an aggressive 1 3 : 1 4 : 5 7 : 0 6 enough approach in getting the word out to its 1 3 : 1 5 : 0 0 : 0 9 customers about the hazards of asbestos? 13:15:02:18 A I think I in my position at the Friction 1 3 : 1 5 : 0 5 : 1 0 Materials Standards Institute did as much as I 1 3 : 1 5 : 0 9 : 1 3 could to get this information out, and I think the 1 3 : 1 5 : 1 1 : 1 2 members in the meanwhile took that information and : 3 : 1 5 : 1 2 : 2 8 did their best to get it out, but whether they all 13:15:16:12 did it or not, I don't know. 13 : 15 :25 :18 MR. DeLUCA: Go off the record, 13 : 15 : 29: 21 please. 13 : 15 : 31 : 00 MR. PIAZZA: The time is now 1:07, :15 : 32 :21 and we will take a pause in the testimony 13 :15 :34 : 27 of Mr. Drislane. 13 : 15 : 35 : 18 (A short recess was taken.) 13 :17 :16 :15 MR. PIAZZA: The time is now 1:09, 13:17:27:16 we will resume the testimony of 13:17:29:24 Mr. Drislane. 1 3: 1 7 : 3 1 : o o BY MR. DeLUCA: 13 :17 : 31 : 06 Q Sir, as Exhibit 37 I am handing you a 1 3 : 1 7 : 3 6 : 2 7 memo that you authored dated August 30th, 1972, 1 3 : 1 7 : 4 0 : 1 8 addressed to the Asbestos Study Committee, and the l 3 : 1 7 : 4 3 : 2 1 subject is Health Hazards of Asbestos by J. C. 1 3 : 1 7 : 4 6 : 1 8 Gilson. And you have enclosed an article by J. C. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446~0~~ ~ rl w ~ r rl W n r i c::: 1 ~ n P - "R v M r n PT. ll_C a 13 : 17 : 52 : 24 13 : 18 0 4 : 0 0 13 : 18 08 : 27 13 : 18 11 : 21 13 :18 :16: 06 13 : 18 : 1 9 : 25 13 : 18 : 20 : l 5 13: 18 : 27 : l 2 "3 : 18 : 30 : l 0 13 : 18 : 33: 06 13 : 18 36: 27 13:18 40: 03 ,'- :' ~ 1 8 4 1 : 0 6 13:18 46 : 13 13: 18 50 : 00 13 :18 53 :28 13 : 18 : 57 01 13 : 18 : 58 13 13 : 18 : 58 13 13 : 19 : 0 2 06 -3 :19: 04 l 8 13 : 19 : 0 6 : 00 13 : 19 : 0 8 06 13 : 19:11 07 Gilson, as well as a memo from Ike Weaver. Are you -- do you recognize this article, Health Hazards of Asbestos by J. C. Gilson? A I don't recognize having seen it before but I remember, I vaguely recall having heard the name Gilson. Q And you say in your memo that Ike Weaver thought that this particular article was a good overview of the entire asbestos health situation as it now stands, and suggested that it be distributed to members of the committee, okay? A I can read too, yes. Q And you did, you did just that, you forwarded it on to your committee members, as well as Matt Swetonic from the AIA, and even your British counterpart, the British Friction Materials Council; correct? A Yes. Q And did you typically when you would get medical articles, did you read them or did you just pass them along? A It depended. I would read some if they were light and easy enough for me to understand. If they were too heavy, I just dropped them, I P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 13:19 15: J 9 13 : 19 18 27 13 : 1 9 : 2 2 10 13 : 19: 25 : 27 13 : 1 9 : 2 8 2 4 1 3 : 1 9 : 3 1 :) 6 13:19:35 J 9 13 : 19 : 3 8 13 13 : 19: 39: 18 13 :19 : 41 : 10 13 :19 : 43: J6 13 : 1 9 : 50 : 06 20 :10 : 06 13 : 20 : 12 : 15 13 : 20 : 1 9 : 04 13 : 20 : 2 4 12 13 : 20 : 28 09 13 : 20 : 2 9 : 21 13 : 20 : 33 : 13 13 : 20 : 36 : 15 13 : 20 : 3 9 07 13 : 20 41 21 13 : 20 45 : 00 13: 20: 48 :19 just circulated them. And that one there looked like it was too heavy. Q Did you -- did you happen to read the section where it says that the evidence for a dose response relationship is less clear in a case of mesothelioma, and hence the threshold limit value is more difficult to assess? A What are you asking me? Q Were you aware of that? A I must have been at the time, but I don't remember it. I must. He must have said that. It is there on paper. Q As 38 I have a letter that you sent to Ike Weaver dated May 29th, 1974 with an attachment, and did you regularly report to Ike Weaver on what transpired during the years so that he could put it in his report? A Ike Weaver, I believe at that time was chairman of the Asbestos Study Committee, so if there were things that came in concerning asbestos, I would route them on to him. In the meanwhile, if he sent me stuff concerning the asbestos, I would generally route it on to my members. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 KrLw.::~ r_d_ J& n r i_s._1 _.:::~ n P - R v Mr flp T.11 <' .:::~ 13 20 : 48 : 25 13 20 50 : 22 13 :20 :54: 09 13 : 20 55 : 12 l 3 : 20 57 21 13 : 20 : 58 27 13 : 20 : 59: 00 13 : 21 03 : 06 13 : 21 05 : 24 13 : 21 08 : 15 13 : 21 : 10 : 15 13 : 21 : 13 : 27 : 21 : 14 27 13 : 21 : 17 27 13 : 21 : 1 9 : l 5 13 : 21 : 23 : l 2 13 : 21 : 27 : 04 13 21 : 29 : 19 13 21 : 3 0 : 0 9 13 : 21 : 32 : 19 13 : 21 : 33 : 28 13 : 21 : 36 21 13 21 47 1 2 13 21 4 9 : 27 Q And every year the chairman of that committee would have to provide a report to the Asbestos Study Committee, or a report to the membership as to the activities of the Asbestos Study Committee for the year? A That's correct. Q And you were very much the recordkeeper around there, and you would help the chairman out and give them information about what happened in the year for inclusion in their report? A No. They got their own information for inclusion in the report. Q Okay. I guess why I came to that conclusion is that your second paragraph says, "Enclosed is a list of actions during the '73-74 fiscal year listed in date order. I'd very much appreciate a brief Committee Chairman report as soon as you're able." A In that case, I must have done that. Q And then attached is a list of things that occurred in '73. I want to ask you about this one. August '73 sent the committee members information concerning Dr. Selikoff's presentation indicating that the 1976 two fibers per cc P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 l 3 : 2l 5 4 : 00 l 3 2l 55 : l 5 l 3 2l 57 : 27 l 3 22 00 : l 2 l 3 22 02 l 5 l 3 : 22 l 4 0 4 l 3 : 22 l 4 0 4 l 3 : 22 l 4 04 l 3 : 22 l 4 04 l 3 : 22 14 l 8 13 : 22 17 24 13 : 22 : 21 03 : 22 : 23 : l 5 13 : 22 : 2 4 : 0 3 13 : 22 : 26 : 13 13 : 22 : 26 : 24 13 : 22 : 3 0 : 0 9 l 3 : 22 : 3 3 : 2 4 13 : 22 : 38 : l 9 l 3 : 22 43 : 03 l 3 : 22 4 4 : l 8 l 3 : 22 4 6 : l 5 l 3 : 22 : 47 : 2l 13 : 22 : 50 : 22 exposure may be too high. A I probably sent it to them then. Q Is that what this is, is a list of information that you would of sent on to members of the Asbestos Study Committee during the year '73-74? A Those are apparently what I was trying to help Ike with his annual report. This is what with his chairman's report. Q Just by way of further example, one of the other things you would have done was to send committee members additional materials on asbestos and brake linings? A I would have sent some to committee members, yes. Q And one of other things you did in August of '73 was to send information concerning what occurred in Lyon, France, or Lyon, France, excuse me, you are familiar that there was an asbestos conference held there in the early '70s? A I wasn't familiar with anything. Somebody sent that on to me. Q And you passed it along to all your members? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 ~nwr:1. r_rl W n r i c:: l _.=! n P - Rv M r n P T, 11 r ri 13 : 22 : 50 : 27 13 : 22 : 53: 03 13 : 22 : 5 5 : 22 13 : 22 57 : 1 8 13 : 23 38 : 24 13 : 23 : 44 : 0 6 13 : 23 : 46 : 28 13 : 23 : 47 : 0 9 13 : 23 : 5 0 : 0 4 13 23 : 55 : 07 13 23 58 : 25 13 : 24 02 : 2 4 ..( " : 2 4 13 : 24 05 : 03 07 10 13 : 24 11 03 13: 24 12: 24 13 : 24 : 1 5 : 24 13 : 24 : 1 6 : 24 13 24 : 1 9 : 27 13 24 22 : 09 13: 24 22: l 0 l 3:24 :25:09 1 3 : 2 4 2 7 : o) 6 13 : 24 27 : 22 A I apparently passed it on to my members. I don't remember if I passed it on to all my members. I believe I passed it on to my members. Q As 39 I have a June '74 Asbestos Study Committee report, and would this have been a document that you would have prepared as Executive Director? A I don't recognize it because I can't see the heading of the damn thing. Asbestos Study Committee report. That's funny it should be in that format. Ordinarily I put it with a list of attendees and all that. I don't really know what we are talking about here. What's the questions? Q I was just wondering if this was a document you would typed as Executive Director? A Might have been a forerunner for asbestos committee report. I don't know. Q Typically were the reports typed up and attached as exhibits to the minutes of the meeting? A Ever was different. There was no -- it could have been that way, or it might not have been that way. Q Do you have any knowledge of an asbestos P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 l j : 24 2 9 : 27 13 : 24 34 09 13 : 24 34 12 13 : 24 37 21 13 : 24 39 : l 9 13 24 43 : 2B 13 : 24 46 : 25 13 : 24 49 : 09 13 : 24 51 2B 13 : 24 :54 J 9 13 : 24 57 l 6 13 : 25 00 : l 2 25 : 02 : 1 9 13 : 25 : 05: 83 13 : 25 : 06 : l 2 l 3 : 25 : 10 : l 2 13 : 25 10 : 28 13 : 25 11 28 13 : 25 : 18 15 13 : 25 : 18 15 13 25 : 21 09 l 3 25 : 23 : 12 13 : 25 : 23 : 15 13 : 25 : 27 : 09 meeting that was held in Geneva, Switzerland in 1973? A No. If it were in one of these things, it probably happened, but I don't know. I wasn't in Geneva. I don't go to Lyon or any of that stuff. I don't know that stuff. Ike was so full of papers and he kept sending papers and papers and papers to me, so I tried to send the papers out, okay? I have no idea. S 3many papers. I couldn't read them. No way. I couldn't understand them if I tried to. Q Did you send -- did you forward most of the stuff that Ike sent you to the members? A Generally speaking. Q Who would decide what to send on and what to not send? A I would. Q Okay. Do you know if Mr. Weaver is living? A I do not know. Q Do you know where he lived when you were -A No, I don't. Q He -- Did you understand him to be P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 w~rlw.::l rrl nri c:; 1 .::lnP - P.v Mr DPT.llr'.::l 13 : 25 : 30 : 18 13 : 25 : 33 : 12 13 : 25 : 36 : 09 l 3 : 25 : 39: 09 13 : 25 40 : 25 13 : 25 42 : 21 l 3 : 25 : 48 : 0 6 13 : 25 : 53 : 09 l 3 : 25 : 53 : 25 13 : 25 : 54 l 2 13 : 25 : 57 04 13 : 25 : 57 15 : 25 : 57 21 13 : 26 : 01 J 1 13 : 26 : 02 24 13 : 26 :16: 18 13 : 26 :1 9: 09 13 : 26 : 21 : 24 13 : 26 :26: 09 13:26:28:22 13 : 26 :30 : 04 13 : 26 : 32 : 25 13 : 26 :34: 24 13 : 26 : 37 : 00 sending you that for the purposes of sending it along to other people in the brake business? A I don't know why he sent things to me. Q Did you know him as an individual concerned about worker health? A I would guess so, yes. Q Do you know if he had any type of medical background? A No idea. Q Do you know what his position was with Raybestos? A No. Q Some kind of an executive or -A Yes, some kind of an executive. Q With respect to the OSHA limits, for instance, in this time we are talking about two fibers per cc, did you have an understanding that they were to protect against asbestosis, or did you think that they also were designed to protect against cancer? A I have no idea what they are. You know, at the beginning of this thing, I didn't understand what was going on here, and later on I didn't understand either. But people that talked P.O. Box 12459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 ___ ________________________________________Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 ,_, , E ci w t=! r_rl w D r i s 1 t=! n P - B v M r n P T, 11 r .::l l 3 : 26 : 40: 2 5 l 3 : 26 : 4 9: 07 l 3 : 26 : 54 l 6 l 3 : 26 : 57 24 l 3 : 27 02 : 0 9 l 3 : 27 06 : l 5 13 : 27 : 13 : 09 13 : 27 : 15 : 00 l 3 : 27 17 : 12 l 3 : 27 l 9: 15 13 : 27 : 22 : 0 9 13 : 27 : 25 : 06 27 29: 09 l 3 : 27 31 : 07 13 : 27 : 3 5 : l 9 l 3 : 27 : 37 : 21 l 3 : 27 : 39: 2 4 13 : 27 42 : 2 l l 3 : 27 45 : 25 l 3 : 27 50 : 1 6 l 3 : 27 51 1 5 l 3 : 27 51 25 13 : 27 57 0l l 3 : 28 00 : 24 about asbestosis and lung cancer and all that, and I didn't know any of this stuff back in 1972. And gradually as people build up, I figure it had something to do with lung cancer and asbestosis. I remember a certain time Ike may have wrote mesothelioma. I could not even spell mesothelioma at that time. So I don't know. That interim period, things are happening. '72 you are getting aware of the problem, and '76 you are making standards, and '80 you are toughening the standards. I can't give specific times and exactly what happened then. I can tell you whether I wrote the letter or not. Q One of the recommendations that Mr. Weaver made as reflected in this report is that there should be a full understanding of the nature of the asbestos hazard by all persons concerned both inside and outside asbestos processing facilities, did you agree that that was good advice? A Yeah. Q And a full understanding would involve an understanding of the product that can cause cancer, wouldn't it? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 F'.rlw.::~rrl W llri.c:::l.::~nP - 'Rv Mr TIPT.ll!'.::l l 3 : 28 : 0 l : 0 9 13 : 28 : 0 4 : 2 7 l 3 : 28 : 0 9 : 15 13 : 28 : 1 6 : l 0 l 3 :28 : 19: 15 l 3 :28 : 2l : l 5 l 3 : 28 : 24: 01 l 3 :28 :25:22 l 3 :28:29:l 8 l 3 : 28 : 33 : 01 l 3 :28 :35:19 13 :28 : 3 9: 09 : 28 : 42 : 18 13 : 28 : 44: 21 13 : 28 : 46 : 03 13 : 28 : 48 :18 13 : 28 : 50 :22 13 : 28 : 53: 16 13 : 29: 05 : 04 l 3 :29: 05:04 13 : 29: 05 : 04 13 : 29 : 06 : 15 13 : 29 : 08 : 04 l 3:29:13:l 5 A I think we were not hiding the fact that it could cause cancer, but we told them, we gave the same wording in our warning on asbestos that EPA and OSHA did. I don't think I knew anything more than EPA or OSHA. Q Let me show you the first three recommendations he made and ask you whether the FMSI ever put these specific recommendations in its recommended work practices guide. Number one, there is growing evidence of severe health risks following exposure to asbestos dust, did that ever appear in the FMSI work practice guide or the recommended work practice sheet? A With those words, I don't believe so. Q Did the FMSI ever say that, number two, all types of asbestos fiber are associated with mesothelioma? A No, we never specifically said that. Q Did the FMSI ever tell people that the proportion of asbestos workers who may be expected to develop mesotheliomas cannot be determined precisely at present? A See I don't really think mesothelioma was the one that they were all warning about. I think P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 - -~--"--------------------------------------------- 13 : 29 : 16 : 06 13 : 2 9 : 1 8 12 13 : 29 : 22 21 13 : 29 : 26 : 06 13 : 29 :28 : 2 4 13 : 29 : 32 00 13 : 29 : 34 28 13 : 29 : 52 27 13 :29 57 03 13 : 30 03 00 13 : 30 08 15 13 : 30 13 l 2 ,.,, : 3 0 (' 16 : 03 13 : 30 18 06 13 : 30 21 22 13 : 30 : 24 1 9 13 :30 :28 03 13 : 30 : 31 : 15 13 : 30 : 32 : 15 13 : 30 : 35 : 16 l 3 : 30 : 38 27 l 3 : 30 : 4l 24 13 : 30 : 44 24 l 3 : 30 : 48 : l 5 they were warning about lung cancer and asbestosis. I think the mesothelioma warnings were going down with the ship builders and all the other asbestos cement industries, and stuff like that. I don't think they ever more or less projected them into the friction materials business. Q As 40 I have a letter that you authored dated March lOth, 1975 to members of the Asbestos Study Committee, and two questions I want to ask you about this. Again, this seems to indicate that Mr. Weaver sent some papers to you and you passed them along, would you agree with that? A Mr. Weaver forwarded papers, three papers concerning asbestos, which he suggested I send on to the committee. I -- did I send them on? I believe I would send them on. If Ike recommended them, I would send them on. Q Sure. And it shows that there was enclosures and the enclosures were there. But the first question is: Do you recall a discussion among your members as to whether or not fibers less than five microns in length could cause disease? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 l 3 : 30 : 48 : l 5 l 3 :30 59: l 8 l 3 : 3 l 0 l 25 l 3 : 3 l 0 4 27 l 3 : 31 07 19 13 : 31 l 1 24 l 3 : 3l 15 : l 8 13 : 3l :1 9 : 00 l 3 : 31 : 2 0 : 16 13 :31 :25 : l 8 13 :31 : 28 24 13 : 3l : 31 25 3l 32 : 09 13 3l 35 : 07 13 3l : 3 8 : 16 13 : 3l 41 : 13 13 : 31 43 : 1 8 l 3 : 31 : 4 4 1 9 13 : 31 : 5 1 07 13 : 31 : 51 07 13 : 31 : 5 4 16 13 : 31 : 54 16 13 : 31 : 5 6 : 27 13 : 31 : 5 9 : 24 A I don't know what you are asking. Did I send along something to this effect? Q No. This is kind of just a refresh your recollection to the issue. I'm asking if you recall any discussions about whether fibers less than five microns in length could cause disease or more disease and less disease than longer fibers? A Yes. Because this was going on through the '70s when they moved from ten fibers down to five fibers, down to two fibers, so there had to be expressions of concern for the five microns, yes. Q And what was your understanding at that time that the ones that were longer than five microns were the bad ones, or the shorter fibers? A I kind of gather that the longer ones were the bad ones. Q Do you know why you had that opinion at the time? A No, I do not know why I had that opinion at that time. Q To the extent that any of your members had that opinion, do you know what they relied on? A No. P.O. Box 12459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 ------------------------------------------------- n nF: rl w .::l r rl W r i c:; l .::l n P - Bv Mr P T, 11 r .::l l 3 : 32 : 0 0 : 07 l 3 : 32 : 0 4: l 0 l 3 : 32 08: 2l l 3 : 32 l 3: 27 l 3 : 32 l 7 : l 5 l 3:32 l 9:l 0 l 3 : 32 : 26 : l 8 13 32 : 28: 09 13 32 2 9: 25 13 : 32 3 4 l 2 l 3 :32 37 24 13 32 : 39: l 6 '. 3 2 4 3 : l 0 l 3 : 32 44: 24 13 : 32 45 : 03 l 3:32 49:09 13 32 :53 : 06 l 3 : 32 : 5 4: 1 5 l 3 : 32 : 5 6: l 8 l 3 : 32 : 57 21 13 : 32 : 57 l 9 13 : 33 : 01 06 13 : 33 : 07 18 l 3 : 33 : l 0:18 Q The second part of this that I wanted to ask you about concerned a paper concerning mesothelioma in rats. Were you aware over time that that there had been experiments done with animals at various times with respect to asbestos, were you aware of any of those studies that had been done over the years? A I don't. I wasn't aware of the studies. Ike might have told me there were studies done in Great Britain to the effect that such and such was the result. I don't read the studies. Q We are here in Albany, New York. How far away is Saranac, New York? A I have no idea. Q Do you know about any studies that were done on rats or mice by some of the members of FMSI, people like Abex? A No, I have no idea. MR. POLCHINSKI: Objection. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q And do you remember Mr. Weaver here in 1975 saying that these rats that were exposed to Chrysotile got mesothelioma, and he thought that that would be bad news for people that were hoping P.O. Box 12459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 _, '--~-,--------------------------------------------- 13 : 33 : 13 : 21 13 : 33 16 : 04 13 : 33 18 07 13 : 33 :21 04 13 :33:22 09 13 : 33 31 27 13 : 33 35: 0l 13 : 33 38 : 27 13 33 : 3 9 : 27 13 33 : 43 : 04 l 3 : 33 : 45: 2l l 3 : 33 : 4 6 : 21 .' 3 3 4 9 : l 5 13 33 49 : 24 13 : 33 53 : 00 l 3 : 33 :57 : l 5 l 3 : 34 : 00: 07 l 3:34:04:l 3 13 : 34 : 05 : 03 13 : 34 14 : 0 9 13 : 34 l 6 : 25 l 3 : 34 : 20 : l 2 '~ 3 : 3 4 : 2 9 : l 3 13 : 34: 32 : 06 that Chrysotile didn't cause mesothelioma? A I understand what he was saying, yes. Q And you passed this along to your members, of course? A I don't recall. Q Did you ever get to know a gentleman named John Meyers from California? A No. Q If I told you he worked at an asbestos mine in King City, would that assist you? A No. Q Have you ever heard of colegria? A No. Q How about colalinqua asbestos? A No. Q Have you ever heard any arguments advanced that some types of Chrysotile are safer than others? A No, I haven't. Not types of Chrysotile. I didn't know there were other types. Maybe there are. I'm not an expert in asbestos. Q Did you know Dr. Langer from Mt. Sinai? A I may have met him, but I don't remember him. P.O. Box 12459 Albany (51 B) 438-0 126 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Troy (51 B) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 - -------- ------------------------------------------- 13: 34 32: 15 13 : 34 3 5: 22 13 : 34 3 9: 00 13 : 34 42 : 10 13 : 34 43 : 03 13 : 34 4 9 : 04 13 : 34 53 : 22 13 : 34 55 : 1 5 13 : 34 5 6 : 27 13 : 34 57 : 10 13 : 35 : 2 9 : 06 13: 35: 31: 00 35 : 53 : 21 13 : 35 : 59: 04 13 : 36 : 0 2: 28 13 : 36 : 0 6 : 06 13 : 36 : 11 : 03 13 : 36 : 20 : 2 4 13 : 36 : 25: 03 13 : 36 : 27 : 04 13 : 36 : 2 9 : 1 9 13 : 36 33 : l 6 13: 36 36: 07 13 : 36 : 39 : 06 Q Do you remember any of his work? A No. I think there was a paper by Dr. Langer that somehow got into our files, I'm not sure. Q Are you familiar with his opinion that there was no safe level of exposure to asbestos and that some people could be particularly sensitive to it? A I don't recall that. Q As 41 let me hand you or let me just mark minutes of the meeting of the Board of Directors, Tuesday, June 17th, 1975. Under Asbestos Study Committee report it discusses the report of Mr. Weaver, which I guess you read for the Board of Directors, and it goes on to say this, Mr. Weaver's report expressed concern on the accusations that have been, I'm sorry give me one moment -- accusations that have been pressed against the industry concerning the asbestos standards. He reviewed some of the activities of the regulatory agencies over the past year. The last four paragraphs in Mr. Weaver's report aroused some controversy. One director suggested that the last four paragraphs be deleted. Do you P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 13 : 36 45 : 06 13 36 47 : 2 5 13 36 51 09 13 :36 :57 1 9 13 : 37 : 0 8 24 13 : 37 08 2 4 13 : 37 11 06 13 : 37 l 4 27 13 : 37 :17 : 00 13 : 37 : 22 :00 13 : 37 : 31 :2 4 13 37 : 38 01 37 : 3 9: 25 13 : 37 : 41 : 13 13 : 37 : 4 4: 24 13 : 37 : 47 04 13 : 37 : 4 9: 07 13 : 37 : 52 : 15 13 : 38 00 : 09 13 : 38 05 : 01 13 : 38 : 0 8 : 01 13 : 38 :10: 09 13 : 38 :10 :16 13 : 38 :11 : 22 recall that controversy? A No. Q Did the Institute ever delete text from minutes or meetings that their members found objectionable? A Well, I put an entries, you saw that on one of them has it has "Unconfirmed Minutes." If my attorney or the chairman said something, I would change it. But the finished minutes stayed as they were, to the best of my knowledge. So go to the front page on that. That's a -- what is that, the Board of Directors or what? Q Yes, sir. That's the Board of Directors, June 17th, 1975. A That looks like -- that looks like a final set of minutes though. Q Okay. And it shows who was present, Maremont, Bendix, Brassbestos, Raybestos, Carlisle, Abex, S. K. Wellman, Gatke, you were there for the Institute, another person from Maremont. Who is this Mr. Gorman, is that your attorney? A Legal counsel. Q Committee chairperson was present, Abex? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 ~ ri ~AT~ r ri W n r i c:: 1 ~ n P - P." M r DeL 11_c_a 1j : 38 :14 : 27 13 :38 15 : 09 13 : 38 17 : 04 13 : 38 1 9: 18 13 : 38 20 : 12 13 : 38 23: 28 13 : 38 : 2 6 : 1 2 13 : 38 : 3 0 : 12 13 : 38 : 31 27 13 : 38 : 34 09 13 : 39 : 00 : 27 13 39: 04 : 03 39: 06:24 13 : 39 : 0 9: 07 13 :39 :12 : 13 13 : 39 : 15 : 21 13 : 39: 17: 24 13 : 39: 20: 25 13 : 39 : 23 : 00 13 : 39 : 26 : 06 13 : 39: 28: 06 13 : 39 : 31 :10 13 : 39: 32: 06 13 : 39: 33 : 24 A Yes. Q You even had a guest from Europe who was, I guess, another similar organization? A That is correct. Q All right. And getting back to that about deleting the last four paragraphs, do you recall why they wanted four paragraphs deleted? A No, I do not. Q Let's look at them and see if that refreshes your recollection. A I don't see what was eliminated or what was supposed to be eliminated. Q Well in the first paragraph the third sentence says, "While this may be true as far as the overall environmental and occupational health picture is concerned, I see no significant change in the attitude of regulatory agencies, medical researchers, labor or environmental groups in regards to the hazards of asbestos nor do I see any justification for such change." Do you know if that attitude was found to be objectionable by your Board of Directors? A No. I would think it was whatever might have been removed, if there was something removed. P.O. Box 12459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Troy (518) 283-5064 _____ __________________________________________,,_, Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 , 1j 39 : 44:21 13 39: 49: 06 13 : 39 : 52 : 00 13 : 39: 55: 06 13 : 39 : 57 : 21 13 : 39: 58: 16 13 : 40 : 04 :03 13 : 40 : 06 : 0 9 13 : 40 : 06 :24 13 40 : 09: 28 13 40 : 11 18 13 40 : 1 4 : 18 40 14 : 24 13 40 19 : 27 13 40 : 21 : 1 9 13 : 40 : 23:18 13: 40: 30: 28 13 : 40 34 09 13 : 40 37 15 13 : 40 : 41 06 13 : 40 : 43 : 16 13 40 : 45: l 8 13 40 : 47 : 25 13 40 : 51: 13 Q He also recommends educating workers, giving workers instruction and training in the methods for reducing airborne dust generation for minimizing exposure to dust, was that objectionable to your members? A I don't believe so. I don't believe so. I don't believe any of this was objectionable enough to be removed. Q But someone found it objectionable, maybe it wasn't ultimately removed? A That could that's most likely the scenario. Q As you look at the people who were present, do you have any recollection as to who exactly it was that wanted that removed? A No. I don't remember half of the people. Q Did you know Mr. Messier from Bendix? A Yes, I do know Mr. Messier. He just died. Not of asbestosis either. Q It is probably because he didn't work with the stuff? A It was before he got to be a sales manager, he worked in the factory. So these people are not all elite people like you may be P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 ]:;' r1 '' :::. r rl IA7 n r i .~ l A n_p_ Rv Mr DPT.!ll'ri 1j : 40 : 55 : 24 13 40 : 56 : 1 8 13 40 : 58 : 27 13 : 40 : 5 9 : 22 13 : 41 : 1 1 : 0 9 l 3 : 41 : l 5 : l 6 l 3 : 4l l 7 : 00 13 4l 1 9 : l 2 l 3 4l 23 : 04 l 3 4l : 26 : 00 13 4l : 33 : l 2 13 4l 36 : 06 : 4l 38 : 00 l 3 41 : 41 : 1 9 l 3 : 41 : 4 2 : l 6 13 : 42 : 2 3 : 2 4 l 3 : 42 : 2 5 : l 8 13 : 42 : 2 9 : 00 13 42 30 : 07 13 47 56 : 0 6 13 : 48 13 : 28 13 : 48 : 17 00 13 : 48 1 7 01 13 : 48 17 00 used to. Q Did you know a Mr. Conway from Abex? A Yes, I did. Q This gentleman here, I am having trouble reading his name, he was also employed by Abex? A His name was Nelson. Q What was his first name? A R. E, Robert E. Nelson. He was not on the asbestos thing. He was sitting in this board meeting as the chairman of a different committee. Q Did you have contact with Mr. Gatke, is that Frank Gatke? A I had contact with him while I was a member of the Institute, yes. MR. DeLUCA: Off the record, please. MR. PIAZZA: The time is now 1:33, we will take a pause in the testimony of Mr. Drislane. (A short recess was taken.) MR. PIAZZA: The time is now 1:39, we will resume the testimony of Mr. Drislane. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q Mr. Drislane, I want to go back to P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 f<'. ri r-1 .::l r ri 1.\l n r i c: l .::l_ n p 13 : 48 : 1 9 : 28 13 : 48 : 2 3 : 0 6 13 : 48 26 : 21 13 : 48 30 : 01 13 : 48 34 01 13 : 48 37 15 13 : 48 40 : 24 13 : 48 : 43: 00 13 : 48 46 : 1 8 13 48 48 06 13 48 52 07 13 48 53 : 0 0 : 49: 00 : 09 13 : 49 : 04 03 13 : 49 07 15 13 : 49: 09: 18 13 : 49: 12 : 00 13 : 49 : 12 : 00 13 : 49 : 1 6: 22 13 : 49:19:19 13 : 49 : 22 : 22 13 : 49 : 2 3 : 22 13 : 49 : 27 : 28 13: 49 : 30 : 12 Exhibit 41 for a moment. We are still talking about what was known by the FMSI and its members about the health effects of asbestos. And earlier I had asked you about fibers that were short fiber, meaning less than five microns, or long fiber greater than five microns. And you had told me that it was your opinion based on what you heard that the dangerous ones were the longer fibers, did I state that correctly? A That was my opinion, but I am not an expert on asbestos. Q And did you ever learn of or consider the opinions of Dr. Selikoff that the short fiber asbestos was equally dangerous? A I probably heard it, and I may have considered it at the time, but I don't remember it. Q And getting back to the issue of what was the safe level, were you aware that Dr. Selikoff had repeatedly said that there was no known dose level that was safe? A Well, it had been under my impression that when Dr. Selikoff started off on this thing and he started off with the shipyard workers and P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (51 B) 438-0 126 Troy (51 B) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 3B3-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 --~--~-------------------------------------------- w~rlw.::l rrl nri c::: 1 .::lnP - P.v Mr nPT.llf'~ 13 : 49 : 33 : 12 13 : 49 : 35 : 24 13 : 49 : 39 : l 0 13 : 49 : 42 : 06 l 3 : 49: 44: l 9 13 : 49 : 48 : 09 l 3 : 49 : 52 : 24 13 : 49 : 56 : l 3 l 3 : 49 : 58 24 l 3 :50: 02 l 5 l 3 : 50 : 06: l 5 l 3 :50 : 09:15 := 5 0 : 1 2 : 2 7 ::.: 13 : 50 : 15 : 03 13 : 50 :18 :15 13 : 50 : 22 : 21 13 : 50 : 24: 06 13 : 50 : 3l : 24 13 : 50 : 32 04 l 3 : 50 37 l 0 l 3 : 50 39: l 8 13:50:42:16 13 :50 : 45 : 03 l 3 : 50: 48 : 2l he came over into the friction materials business, he basically said, "We do not intend to go and close down your use of asbestos." And he never published such a statement. He said we intend to go and try to get asbestos uncontrolled so that people can work with it, that's what I remember Dr. Selikoff saying. Q You viewed him as something of an activist; did you not? A Well, no question he was an activist but he had a great he was a great respect for him in the industry. Not in the industry, I guess in hygiene circles and places like that. Q Did you know Dr. Hilton Lewinsohn? A No, I didn't. That name strikes me, but I don't remember him. Q As Exhibit 42 I have a letter that he sent you on August 16th, 1977, and you can see that he was a corporate medical director for Raybestos-Manhattan, at least at that time, does that refresh your recollection as to who he was? A I thought he had something to do with the British council. I don't remember. Q He may have worked in England at another P.O. Box 12459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (S 18) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 -----,------------------------------------ 1:'.rlt.r::l rrl IN n r i c:: 1 ::ln~=> 13 : 50 : 51 09 13 50 :54 10 13 50 : 57 15 l 3 : 5l : 00 : 1 9 l 3 : 51 : 07 : 15 13 : 51 : 10 : 18 13 : 51 : 1 4 : 0 0 13 : 51 : 1 8 : 03 13 : 51 : 2l : 09 13 : 51 : 25 : 21 l 3 : 51 : 2 8 : 2 4 l 3 : 51 : 3 0 : 24 : 5l : 32: 09 l 3 51 : 35 : 09 13 : 5l : 37 : 0 4 13 : 5l : 40 : 03 13 : 51 : 40 : 10 13 : 51 44 06 13 : 51 48 15 13 5l : 4 9: 15 13 52 : 2 6 : 07 13 : 52 : 2 9 : 2 4 13 : 52 : 35 : l 5 13 : 52 : 38 : 00 time. Perhaps that's what you are thinking of. This seems to imply that he came and talked to the annual membership meeting of the FMSI that was held in Scottsdale in 1977, and he goes on to tell you that at the conclusion of that talk he indicated that the present two fiber cc standard had only been recommended in '68 and became the law in 1970, he didn't think there was enough time to validate it or invalidate it as a safe level for cancer because not enough time had gone by. Do you remember that communication from him? A I don't remember. I see it there, but I don't remember it, no. Q Did you -- do you recall any discussions with him about what he thought a safe level of asbestos was? A I don't ever remember having a face-to-face meeting with him. Maybe he was at my meeting or something like that. Q I want to switch gears and talk to you a little bit about what was known by the FMSI and its members as to what mechanics were doing in the field and what precautions they were taking with respect to asbestos. And as Exhibit 43, I am P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 P.r'lwrirr'l W Dri.c::lrinP- Av Mr DPT.JJ(".::l 1 ~ : 5 2 : 4 3 : 2 1 going to hand you a letter from Mr. Weaver to you 1 3 : 5 2 4 8 : 2 4 dated July 17th, 1975. No. Excuse me. That's 1 3 : 5 2 : 5 9 : 2 4 what I would like to hand you. There we go. 13:53:06: 19 MR. KRAUSE: What's the date? 13:53:08:24 MR. DeLUCA: July 17th, 1975. 1 3 : 5 3 : 1 2 : 1 o BY MR . DeLUCA : 13:53:14:12 Q And Mr. Weaver says that-- it says, 1 3 : 5 3 : 2 5 : 2 7 "Please note the attached article that appears in 1 3 : 5 3 : 2 8 : 0 7 the May/June issue of Public Health Reports. The 1 3 : 5 3 : 3 1 : 0 6 second page of the article contains a reprint of a 1 3 : 5 3 : 3 3 : 2 8 booklet titled Brake Repair Work Can Be Hazardous l 3 : 5 3 : 3 8 : 0 9 To Your Health." And here is the article that he ,.~:53:42:06 j .-., 13 :53 :46: 25 is talking about. It's called the Hazards of Asbestos for Brake Mechanics, and it was authored l 3 : 5 3 : 4 9 : 0 6 by several people, including a gentleman by the 1 3 : 5 3 : 5 2 : 2 2 name of Barry Castleman, are you familiar with the 1 3 : 5 3 : 5 5 : 2 4 name Barry Castleman? 13 : 53 : 57 : 24 A No. I think he might have been somebody 1 3 : 5 3 : 5 9 : 1 6 that wrote about asbestos. 13 : 54 : 01 : 06 Q Okay. And to save time I'm not going to 1 3 : 5 4 : 1 7 : 0 1 go over the whole article, but as I think you can 1 3 : 5 4 : 2 0 : l 8 see just from glancing through, it talks about 1 3 : 5 4 : 2 2 : 1 2 grinding and it also talks about blowout. Getting 1 3 : 5 4 : 2 9 : 0 0 back to Mr. Weaver's letter to you though, P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 ----~----------------------------------------.- f<'.rl :::1 rrl W DxLsJ rinP_ - Rv Mr DPT.nrri 1~ :54 33:l 6 13 : 54 35: 28 13 54 43 : 18 13 54 46 : 03 13 : 54 48 : 2 4 13 : 54 50 : 27 13 : 54 : 56 : 03 13 : 54 5 9 : 24 13 : 55 02 : 28 13 : 55 : 03 : 19 13 : 55 : 0 5 : 15 13 : 55 : 0 9 : 07 : 55 12 : l 2 13 : 55 15 : 12 13 : 55 :17 : 27 13 : 55 : 20: 18 l 3 : 55 : 24 21 l 3 : 55 28: 27 13 :55 34: 01 13 : 55 : 36 : 19 l 3 : 55 : 39: 15 l 3 : 55 43 : l 8 13 : 55 45 : 24 13 : 55 48: 24 Mr. Weaver conveyed to you the fact that he thought that this type of information which emphasizes, to use his language, emphasize the need for responsible action on the part of friction materials manufacturers was not getting down to the mechanic level. And this was July of I 7 5, Did you understand that at that time that the mechanics weren't getting this type of information? A Well that's what he said, and around that time, again, I say everything doesn't happen one split second. We were probably starting to work on that little booklet that was to be given out to the mechanics. I believe the date of publication for that little blue booklet was sometime maybe in I 7 6, I'm not sure. But that was the outcoming of that, of this kind of a thing because in there he says important, avoid exposure to asbestos dust. Well hard to avoid breathing asbestos dust. Do not use an air hose when performing brake service work or for cleaning the work. This was in there. These are all the things came in that little blue book. Use vacuum cleaning or wet cleaning, do not, so forth and so on. All of these things are P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 Edward W Drislane - Bv Mr D~Luca 1 .j : 5 5 : 5 1 0 9 1 3 : 5 5 : 5 4 :; 7 13 : 55 : 56 : 28 13 : 56 00 : l 9 13 : 56 02 : 16 1 3 : 56 : 0 6 : 0 3 13 : 56 :10: 16 13 : 56 : 14 : 13 13 :56:16:13 13 : 56 : 19: 15 13 :56 22 : 03 13 : 56 26: 09 56 : 27 : 27 I \ 13 : 56 : 31: 01 13 : 56 : 34: 07 13 : 56 : 35: 06 13 : 56 : 37 :24 13 : 56 : 39:12 13 : 56 : 42: 28 13 : 56 45: 19 13 : 56 50: 18 13 :56 : 53: 03 13 : 56 : 55: 13 13:56:58:12 stuff that we put in the book. But the book this here memo is 1975. Our book came out, I believe, in '7 6. But again, you are asking for 79-year-old man to remember when that book came out. I don't remember. I believe it was around that time. I believe we are taking a responsible approach. Q From Castleman's article it says that the average brake mechanic is not aware of the potential hazard of airborne brake dust. A At the time he wrote his article that may have very well been true. Q He also went on to say that the manufacturers of automotive friction materials could easily attach a clear hazard warning to every item sold. A They put that on the box. Q You agree with that, there is no reason why they couldn't have done that? A Except they can't do it all at once. They can't get 100,000 labels on boxes that same day. They have to design the thing. They have got to go and talk to the box manufacturers. Things are not like they are in your office where you are always so efficient you can do everything P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 43SO 126 Troy (518) 2835064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 --~---------------------------------------------- wP.rlw.::~rrl nric:l.::lnP- Rv Mr nPT.11f'.::l 1 .;; : 5 7 : 0 2 : 0 0 13 : 57 0 6 : l 5 13 : 57 08 : 16 l 3 : 57 : 0 9 : 0 6 13 : 57 : 1 l : 0 9 13 : 57 3~ : l 5 l 3 : 57 39 : 27 l 3 : 57 43 : 2 7 l 3 : 57 47 : 2 4 l 3 : 57 : 5 3 : 0 6 l 3 : 58 : l 7 l 2 i 3 : 58 l 7: 28 ~ : 58 : 2 0 : 00 r.- , l 3 : 58 : 23 : l 5 13 : 58 26 : 00 13 : 58 29: 21 13 : 58 : 32 : 18 13 : 58 : 35: 04 13 : 58 36 : 24 l 3 : 58 40 : 03 13 : 58: 42 : 25 l 3 : 58 45 : l 2 l 3 : 58 48 : 18 13 : 58 50: 07 right away. We can't. Ours takes time. Q You obviously have never been to my office, sir. A I hope I never am. Q As 44 I am going to hand you a memo from you that you wrote on August 26, '75 addressed to the Asbestos Study Committee active members and regional members, subject, the United Auto Workers Local Asbestos Safety Bulletin. And just ask you to take a moment and look at that. A Yeah. Q You start out in your memo that you sent to your members saying that Weaver sent this asbestos safety bulletin as put out by a New York City local of the United Auto Workers, and it concerns procedures for brake work and shops and garages. You go on to say it is a further illustration of the direction of those promoting occupational safety and health regulations for the brake repair industry, do you see that? A Can you put it back up there? Q Sure. A Where is this? Five lines in there. Which line is it on? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 ];' r1 ., ::l r rl W_ n r i "' l ;=~ n P "Rv Mr DPT.11r;=~ 1j : 58 : 52 : 06 13 : 58 : 59 : 24 13 : 59 : 02 :15 13:59:05: 09 13:59:08:12 13 : 59:11 : 21 13 : 59:15 : 10 l 3 : 59:19: 06 13 : 59 : 23 : 21 13:59:27: 18 13 : 59: 30 :12 13 :59: 32 : 28 : 59 : 36 : 03 13:59:38: 03 13 : 59: 42 : 12 13 : 59: 45 : 27 13 : 59: 48 : 04 13 :59:50:16 13 :59 :52 : 10 13 : 59: 55: 06 l 4 : 00 : 00 : 03 14 : 00 : 04 : 03 14 : 00 : 07 : 01 14 :00 : 09: 13 Q I read them all to you. A Illustration of that is (reading). What's wrong with that? Q I didn't say there was anything wrong with it. And then in his letter dated August 20th, '75 to you where he attached this, Mr. Weaver said, "Attached is a copy of the Asbestos Safety Bulletin put out by the Social Security Department Local 259, the United Auto Workers, it is very disturbing to me to see this type of publication being published now by organized labor when this it should have been done a long time ago by friction materials manufacturers." Did you agree with that? And he goes on to say my -- let me withdraw that question. In my opinion we could of and should of recommended a better procedure than the one described in the attached union bulletin. A I think it is a matter of timing. How do you get things out? I didn't get stuff out quite as fast as the union did, so I was slower so I was derelict in not getting it out fast enough. Q You see, Mr. Drislane, in asking that question I'm not trying to point my finger at you. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 ... 1q 00 :12 19 14 00 : 14 18 14 0c 15 : 12 14 00 17 : 18 14 00 : 20 : 12 14 00 : 22 : 2 l 14 00 : 2 5 : 10 14 00 : 2 6 : 1 9 14 00 : 2 9 : 15 14 : 00 : 31 12 14 00 : 34 16 14 00 : 35: 03 .~: ' : 0 0 3 9 : 0 0 14 00 43 : 12 1 4 00 45 : 2 4 14 00 47 : 25 14 00 : 4 9 : 28 14 : 00 : 52: 25 14 : 00 :55 : 24 14: 00: 55 :24 1 4 01 : 04 : 21 14 01 : 13 : 01 14 : 01 15 : 03 14 : 01 : 15 : 03 I am asking a question about whether the industry was slow? A You have tremendous hindsight, much better than I do, and I see what you are saying there. So what -- that's what it says there. What are you getting me to, that's what it says, that's what it says. Q The question is: Do you agree that the friction materials manufacturers should have published that stuff long before the union did it in 1975? A Well, see, I'm afraid I am keeping these people here too long by answering your questions like this, so I agree, I agree mainly because I want to get this over with. Q Sir, I would like you to agree because it is the truth and you are under oath, not because you want to go somewhere else. Is it the truth? A How long are you going to keep this up? Is this what you do to everybody? Q Do you agree with that or not? A Yes. Q As 45 I have a memo that you issued dated P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 F'.rlwrirrl W Dric:;lrinP - Rv Mr DpLuca l q 0l 42 : 03 l 4 0l 4 9 : 0l l 4 : 02 03 16 14 : 02 06 21 14 02 0 9 : 06 14 02 l 1 : 28 14 02 : 13 : 24 14 02 : 13 : 24 14 02 : 17 06 14 02 : 21 09 14 : 02 : 23 24 14 : 02 : 26 : 04 : 02 28 : 25 4 : 02 32 : 00 14 : 02 : 33 : 27 l 4 : 02 36 : l 5 l 4: 02 40 : 07 l 4 02 42 : 24 14 02 42:27 l 4 : 02 46 : 06 14 :02 48 06 14 : 02 51 : 00 14 : 02 53: 21 14 : 02 : 53 : 27 December 21st, 1976 of the Asbestos Study Committee. It concerns the, excuse me, it concerns a ballot that you sent out concerning recommended procedures for brake s~rvicing. This is one of those polls that you took on behalf of the FMSI; correct? A Yes. Q All right. And we started to talk about this before in connection with '72, but when you were asking whether people were warning. This was a little different. You asked your members whether they favored putting a one page write up in the Automotive Data Book; correct? A Apparently that's what I did. Q Do you remember sending your members a copy of the proposed recommended procedures for reducing asbestos dust and asking them to comment on it? A I honestly don't remember. Do I say it in there? I am having trouble reading this thing. I am getting older as the day is going on. Does it say something in there that I can refer to? Q Yes. A Whereabouts, first paragraph, second P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 l q : 02 : 56 : l 2 l 4 02 : 5 9 : 2l l 4 03 02 2l l 4 03 : 04 86 l 4 03 : 06 : l 2 l 4 03 : 1 0 : 03 1 4 03 : 1 3 : l 2 l 4 03 : l 7 : 0l 14 03 : 20 : 00 l 4 03 : 23 : 04 l 4 03 : 23 : 04 l 4 : 03 : 28 : 24 03 : 31 : 21 l 4 03 35 : l 0 l 4 03 : 37 : 1 2 l 4 : 03 : 40 : 09 1 4 : 03 : 43 : 0 9 l 4 03 : 46 : 27 1 4 03 : 50: l 2 1 4 03 : 53 : 2 4 l 4 03 : 56 : l 2 l 4 : 03 : 58 : 04 l 4 04 00 : 1 6 l 4 04 04: 00 paragraph, third paragraph or which? Okay. Now which line? Q Let's try the first one, sir. A This is to advise the committee members unanimously supports recommending to the board that an insert be in the -- yes. Q That was based upon a poll you took? A I don't know whether it was done verbally at the meeting or whether it was done on a poll. I don't know. Q Let come back to that in a moment. You go on to say that one member added the comments to this poll, "Printing a page in the FMSI catalog still does not get procedures into the hands of the garage mechanic. The ideal solution is for rebuilders or for other people putting lining sets into individual boxes to include a folded eight and a half by 11 sheet on procedures in each box. The draw back of course is several pennies cost." Do you remember that comment being made? A I don't remember the comment being made, but it's in there in my thing, so I did that. Q What did you understand that to mean, the draw back of course is several pennies cost? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 Erlwarrl W Drisl.:=>ne- Bv Mr DeLuc.:=> l 4 : 04 : 05 : l 8 l 4 : 04 : 07 : l 2 ~ 4 : 0 4 : 1 0 : D4 l 4:04: l 3: 04 l 4 04 15 : l 5 14 04 l 7 : 24 l 4:04 19: l 9 l 4 04 21 24 l 4 04 24 15 l 4 04 26 : 03 l 4 04 27 : 0 0 14 04 :39:03 r8~~~; 0 4 4 2 0 4 14: 0 4 4 4 2 4 l 4 04 47 06 14 04 50 : 12 l 4 04 50 : 28 l 4 04 53 : 21 l 4 05 : 02: 25 l 4 05 : 02 : 25 14 :05 02: 25 14 05 04 27 l 4 05 07 15 14 05 : 56 : 00 A It is like everything you do in life. You are going to -- you are going to spend more money to go and put better brakes on the car, or you are going to keep the price low, what are you going to do? You make an economic decision as to whether you should go and do it. In this particular case, some people were saying the draw back is the pennies cost. They were wrong, okay? Q Do you recall who that was? A No, I do not. Q Let me show you Exhibit 46, and asks if that assists you in recalling who it was? A Well, all right, but I think he was constructive up until the time he said the draw back is several pennies cost. I think he was constructive up until that point. Q For the record, is that David Stone? A That is David Stone. Q He was with Bendix? A He was with Bendix. What he said was constructive. He just had that last sentence in there. He was just saying what some people would say. He wasn't saying it himself. Q And as you said earlier, that was wrong; P.O. Box 12459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 --------------------------..--------------------------- rl]:;' ~ T.7 ::::0 r ffJ D r i C:: l .::l nP 14 05 : 58 : 12 l 4 05 5 9 : 0 3 14 06 02 : 0 3 14 06 06 : 18 14 06 08 : 21 14 06 11 : 19 14 06 : 1 4 : 04 14 06 : 16 : 06 14 06 : l 9 : l 5 l 4 06 : 22 : 24 14 06 : 23 : 28 l 4 06 : 25: 06 06 : 3l : 2 4 l 4 06 : 33 : 21 l 4 06 : 3 4: l 0 l 4 06 : 35: 24 l 4 06 : 3 9: 03 l 4 : 06 : 40: 2l 14 :12 : 5l l 2 14 13 : 47 25 l 4 13 : 50: 12 14 13 51 l 8 14 13 51 : 25 14 13 : 5 3: 2 4 correct? A Yes. But I say Dave was actually taking the side of having it done, and he was making a comment to the effect that the draw back of course is the additional cost. He was talking of the other peoples so-called draw back or their objection to that. He was promoting what he said there. But with your way of looking at things, I don't think you see that. MR. DeLUCA: Thank you. Those are all the questions I have. THE WITNESS: Good. MR. KRAUSE: Let's take about a five minute break. MR. PIAZZA: The time is now 1:58, we will take a pause in the testimony of Mr. Drislane. (A short recess was taken.) MR. PIAZZA: The time is now 2:05, we will resume the testimony of Mr. Drislane. BY MR. KRAUSE: Q Mr. Drislane, my name is Robert Krause, and I have just a very few questions for you, sir, P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (S 18) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 nri c::: l;:,np - B'-.,z Mr Krausp l 4 13 :56: 27 l 4 13 : 59: 27 14 14 : 03: l 6 14 14:06:04 14 14 10 : l 3 14 l 4 11 19 14 14:14 18 14 14:15:01 14:14:16:13 14 :14 19: l 0 14:14 19:13 14:14 21 15 :14 21 21 14:14 25:21 14 :14 27 : 03 14 14:28:06 14 14 : 3l 09 14 14:34 15 14 14 38 27 14:14 42:13 14 14 47 : 00 14 14 50 : 09 14 14 53 : 03 14 14 : 53: 28 then we will let you get out of here. I gathered from what you told us when you were talking about your educational background that you don't have any particular medical training of any sort? A Yes, that's correct, I do not. Q You don't have any training in industrial hygiene? A That's correct, I do not. Q Epidemiology? A Correct. Q Pulmonary medicine? A No, sir. Q Or any of the other branches of the medical sciences? A No, I do not. Q I think you said repeatedly that when you were putting down matters that related to industrial hygiene and medicine, things that people were reporting, you were simply writing down what others were saying at the meeting. You were the scrivener of the comments that were being made by the various participants in the meeting; is that correct? A That is correct. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Drisl;:onp - Rv Mr Kr;:ousP '1 1 4 : 5 4 J 4 14 14 57 03 14 15 : 00 : l 6 l 4 15 : 03 : 04 14 15 : 06: l 5 14 :15 :10: 09 14 15:10:09 14 15:12 06 l 4 l 5 : 18 l 2 14 15 : 2l 18 14 :15: 22 18 14 15: 25: 00 15 : 2 8 :';~ 14 15 : 28 28 28 14 15 : 3 4 0 9 14 15 : 34 : 09 14 15 : 37 : 25 14 15 : 42: 06 14 15: 49: 00 14 15 : 53: 06 14 15 : 58 13 14 16 : 01 21 14 16 : 03: 06 14 16 : 03 : 21 Q And I think you said that there were many occasions on which you would take notes and put them into the minutes where you didn't have a clear understanding of what the industrial hygiene or medical aspects of what you were reporting might be? A That's correct. Q Okay. Now was the Ford Motor Company ever a member of the FMSI? A No, sir. Q Okay. To your understanding, did Ford Motor Company ever make its own brake linings? A No, sir. Q Was Chrysler a member of the FMSI? A Yes. Q Do you have any memory of what period of time Chrysler served as a member of the FMSI? A I would say, trying to think now, around the time I started at FMSI, about 19 -- somewhere between '68 and '70 they might have started in the brake lining business. I have to round it out to maybe 1970. Q Okay. A I said to this gentleman, you don't start P.O. Box 12459 Albany (5 IB) 43B-O 126 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Troy (5 IB) 2B3-5064 ____________________ __________________------- Schenectady (5 IB) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 IB) 3B3-1241 ..... Fax (5IB) 446-05B2 "Rv Mr Kr.::lll~P l 4 l 6 : 07 : 03 l 4 l 6 : l c 07 l 4 l 6 : l 4 21 14 16 :1 6 : 06 14 16 : 18 21 14 16 : 21 03 14 16 : 23: l 2 l 4 16 : 27: 04 l 4 16 : 30: 09 l 4 16 : 34: l 9 l 4 16 : 39: 27 l 4 16: 40: l 5 16:40:15 l 16 : 45: 03 14 16:49:07 14 : 16 : 50 : 00 l 4 :16 : 50 : 00 14 16 : 53 : 28 14 l 6 55:15 14 17 01:12 l 4 l 7 07 04 l 4 17 12: 06 14 17:12 19 14 17:14 28 all of a sudden, you start making testing and getting approvals, I would say about 1970 they became a brake lining manufacturer. Q And do you recall how long they remained a member of the FMSI? A They remained a member until I retired, and sometime after that they left, sometime shortly after that. They left I would say about 1989 or 1988 around the time I was leaving. Q Okay. Was Chrysler a member of the Asbestos Study Committee? A No, sir. Q To your knowledge, did Chrysler ever send a representative to a meeting of the Asbestos Study Committee? A No, sir. Q General Motors, do you know when they joined the FMSI? A They joined shortly after I came with FMSI. They came in, trying to think, I came in I 7 0 They were on board, I would say, around '71 or '72. Q And do you recall how long they remained a member of FMSI? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 --~---~---------------------------------------...-- Dri.c::lrln_P- Rv Mr Krrlll.C::P 14 17 16: 27 14 17 19: 01 14 17:20:10 14 17:24:07 14:17:29:27 14: 17 : 30 :16 14 17 30 : 16 14 17 33 : 18 14 17 36 : l 0 1 4 17 3 9: 01 14 17 43:18 14 17 47: 24 17 : 55 : 01 14 17 : 56: 01 14 18 03 : 13 14 18 08 : 16 14 18 10: 09 14 18 13:12 14 18 1 9: 27 14 18 : 21 : 22 14 18 22:15 14 18 32 :25 14 18 36:28 14 18 42: 1 9 A They were still a member when I left. I can't remember beyond that. Q Okay. Was any -- strike that. Was General Motors a member of the Asbestos Study Committee? A No, sir. Q To your knowledge, did any representative of General Motors Corporation ever attend a meeting of the Asbestos Study Committee? A No, sir. Q It is my understanding that most of the members of the FMSI were aftermarket brake lining suppliers; is that correct? A Not completely correct. They were mostly members of the replacement market. But there were several original equipment manufacturers as well. Q And those would have included Raybestos, Bendix that supplied both OEM brake linings and aftermarket brake linings? A Yes, sir. Q Okay. Was it the case that many of the aftermarket manufacturers who sold linings and were members of FMSI, was it the case that their linings quite frequently, if not always, required P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 - ------~----------------------------------------- n r i .c:l PlnP - "Rv Mr KrP~llC:P l 4 l 8 45 : 22 14 18 48 : 00 14 18 : 49: 16 14 18 : 49 : 27 l 4 l 8 : 52: 06 l 4 l 8 : 55: 09 l 4 : l 8 55: l 6 l 4: 18 57 : l 8 14 : 18 59 : 03 14 : 19 : 00 27 l 4:19:01 l 2 14 : 1 9 : 01 24 19 : 02 00 14 1 9 : 07 00 14 19 : 12 : 0 4 l 4 19:l 7 :27 l 4 :19:20: l 8 l 4 l 9: 22: 22 l 4 19 : 28 21 14 19: 37 l 6 l 4 19 : 37 l 6 l 4 1 9 : 37 : 16 l 4 l 9: 44: 21 14 l 9 : 49: 01 some grinding MS. GRADY: Objection. BY MR. KRAUSE: Q -- in the automotive shop before they could be put onto a brake or replace a brake lining? MR. DeLUCA: Objection. (Objection by all.) THE WITNESS: You want me to answer it or what? BY MR. KRAUSE: Q Yes. A Well, most of the people that supplied just the aftermarket, their linings were going to be subject to subsequent grinding, but OEM stuff might get by without subsequent grinding. Q It was the case that the OEM brake linings as manufactured by some of the companies generally did not require any grinding or bevelling or sanding, that sort of thing? A That is true. Q Okay. Do you have any awareness of what communications the auto companies might of had with their dealerships and people working in their P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 n r i .C: 1 ~nP - Rv Mr Kr~11.C:P 14:19:52:27 14 19:53: 09 14 19: 56 : 07 14 19: 58:16 14 :20 : 03 : 27 14 20:07:18 14 20 11 10 14 20 1 3: 18 14 20 : 29: 1 2 14 :20 : 32 : 27 14 : 20 : 3 9 : 2 4 14 20 : 41 13 20 : 41 16 14 :20 : 47 19 14 20 : 50: 06 14 20 : 50 : 28 14:20:54:15 14 : 2l 00: 06 14 : 21 0 4 : 10 14 : 21 06 : 15 14 : 21 08 : 18 14 :21 11 : 03 14:21 12:12 14 : 21 13 : 24 dealerships? A I haven't the slightest idea. Q Do you have any knowledge of what kind of testing, industrial hygiene-type testing the auto companies might have done with respect to brake repair work on their automobiles? A I would have no knowledge of that. Q Okay. Now Mr. DeLuca talked to you both in the earlier session of your deposition and again today about Mr. Weaver's speech at the 1973 annual meeting. You recall that? A Yes, sir. Q Mr. Weaver was a representative of Raybestos Manhattan; is that correct? A Yes. Q Did when Mr. Weaver gave his speech at the FMSI, he wasn't speaking as a representative of FMSI, was he, he was speaking as a representative of Raybestos Manhattan? A Except for the fact that he was chairman of the Asbestos Study Committee. Q All right. He spoke for the members of the Asbestos Study Committee? A Yes. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (S 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 nric::l.::ln~ P.u Mr .KT311SP 14:21 13:24 14 :21 16 :25 14 21 19: l 6 14 21 20 : ~3 14 21 : 23 : J 6 14 21:28:00 14 21 30 : 25 14 21 33 : 04 14 21 45: 21 14 21 49: 09 14 : 21 53 : 24 14 : 21 56 : 27 1 : '~.. 2 1 5 7 l 5 14 : 21 58 01 14 22 02 : 27 14 22 07 25 14 22 12 03 14 22 13 : l 5 14 22 16 : l 5 14 22 1 9 : l 8 14 22 : 23 : 0 9 14 22 : 26 : l 8 14 22 : 28 : 13 14 : 22 : 30 : 25 Q Okay. He did not speak for persons other than members of the Asbestos Study Committee? A Correct. Q And he certainly would not have been speaking for any of the automotive companies, one of whom didn't belong and all three of them had nothing to do with the Asbestos Study Committee? A That's reasonable, yes. Q You talked about having contacts with Dr. Selikoff in the studies that Dr. Selikoff was doing of automotive repair work, do you recall that testimony? A Yes, sir. Q And you indicated that Dr. Selikoff had indicated to you that they would share with you the final results of their study of automotive repair workers, do you recall saying that? A That was my understanding, yes. Q Did Dr. Selikoff or anybody else from Mt. Sinai ever share with you the final results of their study of automotive repair workers? A No, they did not. Q Were you ever told what those results were? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 ~u Mr Kr.::lllC:::P. 14 22 30:28 14 22 33:12 14 22 3~ . 16 14 22 37 : 12 14 22 : 3 9: 09 14 22:40:07 14 22 43 : 18 14 22 44 : 01 14 22:45:16 14 22 47 J 6 1 4 22 4 s o9 14 22 53 27 y 22 : 58 0 9 i -~'. 14 23 : 01 10 14 : 23 : 03 12 14:23:04 24 14 : 23 05 : 04 14:23 07:28 14 23 :09:16 14 23 :11 : 09 14 23 :15: 03 14 23 :17 12 14 : 23 :17 12 14:23:21 01 A No, I was not. Q Okay. A I had feeling that they came out different from what they expected. Q Okay. MR. DeLUCA: Move to strike as non-responsive. MR. KRAUSE: I don't have anything further. Thank you very much, sir. We appreciate your patience. BY MR . HARKINS : Q Mr. Drislane, apart from a clerical assistant, how many full-time employees did Friction Materials Standards Institute have during the time that you worked there? A One. Q And we are looking at him; is that right? A That's right. Q Okay. Mr. Krause asked you whether you were a toxicologist or a doctor or an epidemiologist, do you recall those questions? A Yes. Q And you say that you are not? A Correct. P.O. Box 12459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 ,------------------------------------------- n r i c:: l ;'l n r=> - P u M_r _Ha r ki n c:: 14:23 21 : 18 14:23 24 ~2 14:23 27 24 14 : 23 30 : 07 14 23 34 10 14 23 37 28 14 23 39:18 14 23 41: 12 14 23 46: 09 14:23 48:10 14:23 50: 03 14:23 54:12 . 23 56:21 14 23 58: 15 14 24 01 : 27 14 24 : 06 : 21 14 24 : 09: 09 14 24 10: 15 14 24 11 : 27 14:24 13:04 14 24 14 ~ 0 14 24 17:19 14:24 18:24 14:24 19:07 Q You did not have those qualifications or training. I want to ask you whether FMSI, Friction Materials Standards Institute, ever retained a toxicologist, a doctor, an expert on warnings, or an epidemiologist to provide consulting services? A No, sir. Q Did FMSI ever commission any research on the safety of asbestos? A No, sir. Q Did FMSI ever enact any standards, safety standards for its members to follow? A No. Q Did FMSI have any greater knowledge than the people who worked for the EPA or OSHA about the safety standards that should be set for asbestos exposure? MR. DeLUCA: Objection. THE WITNESS: No, sir. BY MR. HARKINS: Q Did FMSI hire any public relations professionals? A No. Q What kind of ability would FMSI have had P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 P.v Mr Hrirkinc:; ~ 4 : 24 : 23 : 18 14 : 24 : 25 : 22 14 24 28 : J 4 14 24 30 :15 14: 24 38 : 09 14 : 24 40 : 25 14 24 40 : 25 14 24 42 : 22 14 24 46 : 0 6 14 : 24 48 : 10 14 : 24 51 : 2 4 14 : 24 5 4 28 25 : 0 0: 12 14 : 25 : 0l 16 14 : 25 :01: 24 14 : 25 : 03 : 28 14 : 25 : 05 : 09 14 : 25 : 06 : 1 9 14 : 25 : 11 : 07 14 : 25 : 1 3 : 24 14 : 25 : 13: 24 14 : 25 : 14 : 03 l 4 :25: 20: 01 14 : 25 : 23 : ~ 0 in the time that you worked there to make some kind of public service announcement? A You have none. Q As a constitutional matter, did FMSI have the ability to force its members to do anything? A No, sir. Q Other than pay dues? A Well, that was the hard part. We -- but no, we could not force them to do anything. Q Even as a practical matter setting aside whether you were empowered under the constitution, as a practical matter, could FMSI force or coerce its members to do anything? A No, sir. Q Was it a voluntary organization? A It was a voluntary organization. Q Was it something like Underwriters Laboratory where if you wanted to have a certain seal of approval, you had to behave in a certain way? A No. Q But FMSI did provide information to help its members address asbestos exposure; is that right? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438~0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 nric::l.::~n;:;:.- "R" Mr H.::~rk-in~. 14 : 25: 23: 16 14 : 25: 24 18 14 : 25 :27 06 14: 25: 27 13 14 : 25: 30 : 25 14 : 25: 33: 16 14 25 : 35 : 04 l 4 25: 38 28 14 25 : 41 l 5 14 : 25 44 07 14 :25 45: 22 14 : 25: 46 : 28 25 : 4 9 : 16 14 25 : 52 : 12 14 25 : 52 : 1 8 14 25 : 53 : 12 14 25 : 55: 10 14 : 25 : 56 : 00 14 : 26 : 01 : 27 14 26 : 04 09 14 26 07 l 3 14 : 26 :10 : 18 14 : 26 : 1 3 : 0 6 14 : 26 : 16 : 18 A Correct, yes. Q Did you provide medical literature? A No. Q I mean, did you forward medical literature to people like Ike Weaver and perhaps others might have set? A I don't know we ever got medical literature, except unless you are talking about the type of thing Ike Weaver send in? Q Yes, I am. A Yes, we distributed that. Q Did you send out information about how members could get more information about dust collection systems? A Yes, we did. Q Or health monitoring equipment? A Yes, we did. Q Testing, or other environmental exposure equipment, did you send that information along? A Yes, we did. We had a symposium at the office where we showed people how to use it. Q Did FMSI provide information to researchers like Dr. Selikoff and Dr. Nicholas? A The only kind of information we would P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 _nri c:::l.:::~nA - R'.L Mr H.:=~rkin~ 14 : 26 : 26 : ~3 14:26 26 : ~ 3 14:26 26 : l 3 14 :26 30 : l 9 14 26 : 35: 06 14 26 : 37 : 03 14 26 41 03 14 26 41 06 14 26 43 : 27 14 : 26 : 45 : 24 14 : 26 : 46 : 03 14 : 26 : 49 : 0 9 26 : 51 24 14 : 26 : 54 24 14:26 58 18 14: 27 01 15 14: 27 :03 : 28 14 : 27 : 03 : 28 14 : 27 : 06 : 27 14 : 27 : 09: 24 14 : 27 1 2 : 24 14 : 27 1 6 : 06 . 14 :27 : 20 : l 2 14 : 27 : 23 : 00 have provided to researchers like them was things like how brakes are maintained. We didn't give any kind of information on asbestos levels or anything like that. What we did is where does the garage down -- where does he get his linings from, where does the manufacturer distribute them, and all that. Q Was that information helpful in your estimation to the people who were doing the research? A We tried. We wrote it out to them about how they went and ground linings and how they went and drilled linings and things like that, tried to explain to them when the fixed anchor brakes came after the adjustable brake anchor, how things had changed in the field. We told them that kind of stuff. Q And did that -- did they say that was helpful, or did they thank you for it? A He thanked me for it, but he never really came back, and that has to go with that particular study that Mr. Krause mentioned. The one that -- Q Cohort study? A The cohort study, I think it was he said P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 f)ric::l.::lnP P.u Mr H.::lrk-inc:: 14: 27 26 : 01 1 4 : 2 7 28:~2 14:27:29:24 1 4 : 2 7 32:~3 1 4 : 27 33 : l 2 14 27 36 : 01 l 4 27 40 : J 1 14 27 42 21 14 27 45 00 14 27 45 : 00 14 27 51 07 14 27 57 18 28 02 :27 14 28 04:24 14 28 09:27 14 28 11 : 00 14 28 14:22 14 28 18 03 14 28 22 12 14 28:24:27 14 28:25:,Jl 14:28 : 31 : J 9 14 28 33 : 07 14 28 33 : 2 4 it was in Manhattan or New York City. MR. HARKINS: I don't have any other questions. BY MR. POLCHINSKI: Q Good afternoon, Mr. Drislane. My name is Peter Polchinski, I represent Pneumo Abex. I am going to ask you just a few questions. I appreciate your patience throughout this long day. A Okay. Q Mr. Drislane, shortly after you became executive secretary for FMSI, your organization received some information from British researchers on friction products; isn't that right? A Well, I'm not sure there because British friction materials council was a member of the Institute. We got product information from them, but occasionally like that gentleman Lewinsohn who was with Raybestos, he was from Great Britain. He sent some information over there but through Ike Weaver. Q And there was a study by a D. Hatch, do you recall a study by Hatch? A No, I don't. Q Or a study by Hickish and Night? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 nric::lo:~no 14: 28 37 : 15 14 28 40 : 09 14 28 41 24 l 4 28 44 : l 5 14 28 45 : 25 14 28 48 : 07 l 4 28 48 : 25 l 4 28 51 : 0 9 l 4 28 54: 06 l 4 28 56: 27 14:28 58: 03 l 4 29 00: 06 :' 2 9 : 0 0 : 0 6 14 29 : 02 : 24 14 29 : 04: 18 l 4 29: 05: 16 l 4 29: 09: 09 l 4 : 29: l l : 07 14: 29: 16 : 00 14 : 29: 19 : 13 14 29: 22 :18 14 29: 23: 24 14: 29: 24: 04 A Those names strike. They are familiar but I don't remember specifically what they sent. Q You recall they were back in the early 1970s? A Probably that was when I was getting most of that stuff. Q There was also a study by that was done by a Dr. Lynch? A Jeremiah Lynch. Q Yes. Of the Department of Health, Education and Welfare? A Yes. Q Back in the late '60s? A Yes. That was before my time, but I recall that one. Q Okay. And he, his conclusion on behalf of this organization, part of the U.S. Government, was that only a very small percentage of asbestos fibers were released as free fibers -A I recall the -Q -- in friction products? A Yes. MR. DeLUCA: Objection. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 -nric:;l.::~nP Rv Mr Pnlf'hinc:;ki 1 4 2 9 : 2 4 1 8 BY MR. POLCHINSKI: 14 29:24 l 8 Q And also that there -- that much of the l 4 2 9 : 3 5 : 0 0 friction materials, rather much of the asbestos 1 4 : 2 9 : 3 6 : 2 2 was converted from asbestos into other non-fibrous 14:29:41 18 material, do you remember that? 14:29 41 27 A I recall that, yeah. 14:29 43:15 Q Okay. And shortly after that finding 1 4 : 2 9 4 7 1 2 there was a finding by -- rather there were these 1 4 : 2 9 : 5 1 1 9 studies from the friction, friction materials 1 4 2 9 5 5 : 0 0 council of England that came over? 14 29 57 : 01 A British council. 14:29:57:19 Q British council? . 29 : 59 : 06 A Yes. 14 :29: 59: 12 MR. DeLUCA: Could I have a 14 : 30 00:12 continuing objection to the leading 14 : 30 02 01 nature of this cross-examination, or 14:30:04 04 whatever it is, redirect? May I, so I 14 30 : 08 12 don't have to object to every question 14 30:10:18 you ask? l 4 30 :11: 03 MR. POLCHINSKI: That's fine. 1 4 3 0 : 1 3 : 2 4 BY MR. POLCHINSKI: 14 30 :14: 04 Q And another British study in 1970 by a 1 4 : 3 0 : 1 9 : 1 8 Dr. Luxon, L-U-X-0-N, do you remember that one? 14 :30 :23 : 27 A I don't remember that one. P.O. Box 12459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (SIB) 446-0582 ---------------------------------------------- nric::l:::lnP P.u Mr Pnlrhinc::l<i 14 : 30 : 2 4 : 22 14 30:26 : 01 l 4 30 : 30 : l 8 14 30 : 35 : 06 14 30 : 35 : 27 14 30 : 39: 24 14 30 : 41 : 12 14 30 : 43 : 24 14 30 : 47 21 14 30 : 51 u 6 l 4 30 :52 15 l 4 : 31 07 00 ,,.... "." 3 1 .,. ~ ~ ' 12 l0 14 3l 15 :18 14 3l l 5 : 18 14 31 l 9 : 27 14 31 22 : 24 l 4 31 : 25 : l 5 14 3l : 27 09 l 4: 31 28 10 14: 31 31 04 14 : 31 33 : 1 9 14 : 31 37 : 25 14 : 31 39: 27 Q Do you remember in general the findings, Mr. Drislane, were that less than one percent of the -- of brake dust was actually Chrysotile, asbestos? A I recall something, something to that effect, but I can't give you an exact. Q And there was a finding in conjunction with Dr. Lynch's finding that there was no problem with pollution as a result of brake dust? A I don't recall that specifically. Q Now the -- as you said, the recommendations were made through the 1970s to comply with OSHA and the EPA findings; correct? A Yes. Q And the members went along with the recommendations that they should comply with OSHA? A Well, we believe they did, but we had no way of checking up on them. Q It was your understanding and you have told us before that you believe that these men that you were dealing with from the industry were dealing in in a honorable and honest way; correct? A Yes. Except you got to remember the people on that committee were people who were P.O. Box 124S9 Albany, NY 12212-24S9 Albany (SIB) 438-0126 Troy (S IB) 2B3-S064 Schenectady (SIB) 3SS-9216 Clifton Park (SIB) 3B3-1241 Fax (SIB) 446-0S82 T!riql;::,np- P.u Mr Pnlrhinqk-i 14 : 31 42 : 06 l 4 : 31 45 : 24 14:31 48:10 14 : 31 50 : 21 14 31 54 : ~7 14 31 57 : 06 14 31 58 : 24 14 32 06:12 14 32 12 : 03 14 32:18:06 14 32:20:21 14 : 32 : 21 : 22 . 32 25: 27 14 : 32 28 : 27 14 32 : 2 9: 03 14 32 : 32 : 01 14 32 : 36 : 12 14 32:38:24 14 32 : 41 28 14: 32 52 19 14 32 52 1 9 14 32 52 :19 14 32 52 : 25 14 32 55 : 12 versed in asbestos or health hazards, and stuff like that. Whereas the delegates and alternates to our group, were salespeople. Our group was really run by salespeople. And these guys, the only ones that had this technical thing were the ones on the Asbestos Study Committee. Q And as the -- as the OSHA requirements got stricter, the members of the FMSI in the industry, they also tried to comply with all of the new standards from OSHA, is that your understanding? A Yes, that's why we sent them to for, yes. Q You published the data book in 1976, the FMSI? A Well, we published a data book every year, but around the '80s, '76 or sometime like that, we started putting the asbestos warning in the thing. And we made that little blue book, the pocketbook, we made that out in '76, I believe, but and then from every year from then on in after the first one came out in the data book, we had a warning in the data book. Q And you distributed the -- when it first came out, you distributed 40,000 copies of that P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 IB) 383-1241 Fax (5 IB) 446-0582 nric:::l::~n~=>- Ru Mr Pf\lr-hinc:::k-i l 4 : 32 : 58 : 24 l 4 32 59: 00 : 4 33 : 0l : 00 14 33 : 03 ; l 2 14 : 33 : 06 : l 6 14 ; 33 : 08 : 21 14; 33 11 24 14;33 17 25 14 ; 33 : 2 4 12 14 33 : 27 03 14 33 : 27 16 14 :33 :33 : 21 33 36 : 21 14 : 33 40 : 25 l 4 33 43 : 25 l 4 33 : 44 12 l 4 33 : 47 00 l 4 33 : 47 18 14:33:57 19 14 34 0l 24 l 4 34 04 24 14 34 07 24 l 4 :34 :10 : 12 l 4 : 34 : l 5 ; 03 book? A Well, that's what I am wondering about which one. I can't tell you. But the numbers were up in the 40,000. The numbers are in the 40,000 to 100,000, I'm not sure. Q And was it your understanding, Mr. Drislane, that there was -- there were disputes as to -- as to what diseases, if any, would be caused by brake dust; correct? A Yes, there were. Q And those disputes existed up until the time you left the FMSI; didn't it? A Well there were disputes, but there was generally agreement sometime, I would say the end of the '70s. Q Disputes existed at that time? A Yeah. Yeah. Q And you became aware of the asbestos issue shortly after Dr. Selikoff came out with his article in the early '70s? A Yeah. But it wasn't coincidental. This thing what happened is a guy from Raybestos and the guy from Johns-Manville wanted to start Asbestos Study Committee. I knew nothing about P.O. Box 124S9 Albany, NY 12212-24S9 Albany (SIB) 43B-O 126 Troy (SIB) 2B3-S064 Schenectady (SIB) 3SS-9216 Clifton Park (SIB) 3B3-1241 Fax (SIB) 446-0SB2 Tlri.c:;_La_np - P.v Mr Pnl rhi nc:;k-i 14 34 : 17 09 14 34:21 22 1 4 : 3 4 : 2 6 : G3 14: 34 29: 22 14 34 32 : 21 1 4 3 4 3 6 : I) 7 14 34 40:12 14 34 43 : 00 14 34 43: 06 14 34 50 : l 8 14 34 : 57 l 5 14 34 : 57 28 35: 02 J0 14 : 35 : 04 22 l 4 35 : 06 : l 5 14 35: 0 9: 25 l 4 35 :12: l 0 l 4 35 : 1 4 : 0 6 l 4 35:16: 09 l 4 35 : 18 25 14 35 :22 06 l 4 35 : 24 12 l 4 35 : 26: 24 14 :35: 28: 25 asbestos at this time. And they started Stefl was one of the guys name, and the other guy was somebody, John Marsh maybe from Raybestos. I am not sure. Those two started to get involved in trying to form an Asbestos Study Committee, which we formed, and then maybe three or four others came into. That's the first I knew there was an asbestos problem. Q And to your knowledge, Mr. Drislane, the industry attempted to take safeguards with respect to asbestos? A They sent out bulletins and everything else telling people to get on the stick and start applying with this the standards. Q To your knowledge, Mr. Drislane, was this before there was any asbestos, essentially any asbestos litigation going on? A Well, see the asbestos litigation may have been going on. I don't know. I don't think there was any going on. There may have been some going on particularly with asbestos in other fields, the shipyards, for example, other places like that. But in friction materials, I don't remember any litigation at that time. P. 0. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 flr1c::l.::~nP P.v Mr Pnlrhinc::k-1 l 4 35 : 32 : l 0 l 4 35 32 : 09 l 4 35 3 4 : 04 l 4 35 3 9 : 28 l 4 35 4l 03 l 4 35 4 4 l 8 l 4 35 : 50: 28 l 4 35 : 50: 28 l 4 35 : 5 0 : 28 l 4 35 : 5 0 : 2 8 l 4 35 : 5 2 : 2 4 l 4 : 35 : 55: J6 ,, I,, 3 5 : 5 6 : l 9 l 4 35 : 5 8 : 27 l 4 : 36 : 01 24 14 40 : 04 07 l 4 40 : 1 4 27 l 4 40 : 17 : 15 l 4 40 : 17: 28 14 40 17: 28 14 40 20 : l 9 14 40 : 23: 04 14 40 : 27 21 14 40 : 31 22 MR. POLCHINSKI: Thank you, Mr. Drislane, I have no further questions. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q Mr. Drislane, I have a few more questions for you MR. PIAZZA: Two minutes on the tape. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q -- but as far as we are going first we are going to change the videotape and -- MR. PIAZZA: The time is now 2:27, we will take the pause in the testimony of Mr. Drislane. (A short recess was taken.) MR. PIAZZA: The time is now 2:31, we will resume the testimony of Mr. Drislane. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q Mr. Drislane, I have some follow-up questions based upon the questions that were asked of you shortly ago. First of all, I was interested to learn that you had remembered the article that was published by Jeremia Lynch in P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 I B) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 IB) 383-1241 Fax (5 IB) 446-0582 Rv Mr DPT.nr-ri 14 40 35:09 14 40 35:19 1 4 40 37 : 28 1 4 40 : 40 : 0 9 14 40 : 40 : 21 1 4 40 : 43 : 00 14 40:50:10 14 40 : 52 09 14 40 : 54 J 3 14 40 55 : 28 14 40 58 : 22 14 41 01 : 01 41 03 : 22 14 41 06 : 28 14 41 08 : 01 14 41 10 : 27 1 4 41 1 6 : 22 14 41:23:24 14 41 : 28 : 16 14 41 30 :18 14 41 34 09 14 41 37 : 2 5 14 41:40:21 14 41 : 43 : 27 1968. A That was the first article that was ever printed that I ever saw, and I guess that's the one that I remember. Q And do you remember that the Dr. Lynch was studying whether asbestos from brakes polluted the atmosphere? A I don't remember the study. I just remember his name for some reason. He was with I knew he was from Harvard, that's about it. Q I didn't want the record to think that you were saying that you remembered him studying people who were working with brakes, because you don't remember that; correct? A No, I do not. Did I say that? Q I'm not sure exactly how that carne out. And the reason that Dr. Lynch was studying whether asbestos was emitted from brakes into the atmosphere is that the friction materials industry used thousands of tons of asbestos every year, and there was a real concern that when people would apply their brakes that asbestos would get up into the atmosphere and we would all be exposed; correct? P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 nric:::l::lna P.u Mr naT. ~ l 4 41 4 4 : 1 0 l 4 41 46 : 00 14 41 48 : 03 14:41:50:01 14:41 52:12 14 41 55 : 16 14 41 58 l 2 14 42 01 0 9 14 42 02 22 14 42 05 : 00 14 42 07 : 21 14 42 0 9: 18 42 11 1 9 14 42 14 27 14 42 16 : 18 14 42 1 9: 01 14 42 1 9: 12 14 42 20 : 01 14 42 22 : 00 14:42:24:21 14 42 : 27 22 14 42 28 21 14 42 30 : 00 A You are telling me. Q Well, I am just asking if you remember that part of the article? A I remember that he made some kind of a study on brake debris and all that and what was in that brake debris, and that's the only thing I remember. I can't extrapolate it into what you just said. Q You talked about foresterite? A I didn't say foresterite, did I? Q I think that you were talking about a change in the brake dust? A The debris that came out that was not asbestos, is that foresterite? Q I believe so. Do you know anything about that? A No. Q Have you ever heard the opinion of General Motors consultant Ralph Forlick about the dangers of foresterite? MS. BOYD: Objection. THE WITNESS: I don't believe I ever heard of him. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 nric:l:::ln/0> ~' Mr n""T lll""':::l 1 4 4 2 : 3 o : 1 o BY MR . DeLUCA : 14 42 30 : 15 Q And when you said that less than one 1 4 4 2 3 3 : 2 4 percent is Chrysotile, or you agre~d with the 1 4 4 2 3 6 : 2 8 question that asked of you, that less than one 1 4 4 2 3 9 : 1 5 percent of the brake dust was Chrysotile, what 1 4 4 2 4 2 : 1 5 were you talking about? 14 42 43 : J 9 A Well, a very small amount is Chrysotile, 1 4 4 2 4 5 : 2 2 that's what I remember, less than one percent, 1 4 4 2 4 8 0 9 less than eight percent, I don't know. But it's a 1 4 4 2 5 1 J 7 very small amount. 14 42 51 27 Q Do you remember Exhibit 9 to your 1 4 4 2 : 5 8 1 3 deposition which was the article where Bendix 4 3 : 0 3 : 1 5 found 3.2 percent of asbestos emitted from brakes l 4 4 3 : 0 7 : 1 3 that was entering the atm0sphere? 14 43 : 10 : 03 A I remember that. I think that was Mike 1 4 4 3 : 1 2 1 0 Jacko's paper; is that correct? 14 43 : 14 09 Q I believe so. 14 43 : 15 : 12 A Yeah. So? 14 43 : 26 : 03 Q Okay. Mr. Harkins asked you a question l 4 4 3 : 2 B : 1 8 about whether the Friction Materials Standards 1 4 4 3 : 3 4 : 1 9 Institute knew more than the EPA, do you remember 14 43 : 36 : 27 that? 14 43 : 37 : 03 A I recall a question along those lines, 14 43:40:15 yes. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (S 18) 446-0582 n r i c:::l ~nP - "Rv Mr nPT.llr'~ 14 43 40 : 28 14 43 43 : 21 14 43 47 03 14 43: 47 03 14 43 : 53 : 24 14 43 57 07 14 44 07 24 14:44 10:13 14 44:14:-JO l 4 44 16:18 14 44 20: 24 14 44 23:18 44:25:01 14 44 27:04 14 44 30 : 15 14 44 32 : 21 14 44 34 0 6 14 44 37 18 14 44 40 : l 5 14 44 41:21 14 44 43:13 14 44 47 : 0 9 14 44 50 : 03 14 44 53 :12 Q Do you recall what you told him? A I believe I said EPA knew more than I did. Q Let me show you minutes of the meeting of the Board of Directors from Tuesday, December 4th, 1979. And in that those minutes you say, "It was stated that many of the individuals working on asbestos control at the EPA are new to this field. Not only are they new to the asbestos question, but have little background in friction materials." Let's just stop right there for a moment. Does that cause you to change your answer? A Now you are talking about the very beginning. I think EPA was just formed for the asbestos thing there. I think they were all beginners at that time. Q So now do you think that the Friction Materials Standard Institutes and its members knew more than the EPA? A Possibly at the very beginning, but I would say as EPA got in and got their sea legs going and all that stuff, they know more than I do. But at that time there they started some place. You can never seem to get the concept P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 nric:::l.::lnP- Rv Mr nPT.nra l 4 44 56 06 14 44 58 09 14 45 01 24 14 45 02 : 2 14 45 06 27 14 45 08 21 l 4 45 09 06 14 45 10 : 28 14 45 13 : 27 14 45:15:09 l 4 45 : 17 l 8 14 45 : 21 06 45 : 2 4 13 14 45 : 25 : 22 14 45 28:19 14 45 3o:a3 14 45 : 32 : 18 14 45 : 35 : 0 6 14 45 : 37 : 06 14 45 : 3 9 : 03 14 45:41:06 14 45:43:18 l 4 45 : 46 : 25 l 4 45 : 5l : l 6 things start and they caught on. They don't happen all of a sudden. EPA didn't just come in and just happen. Q In fact, the friction materials industry spoon fed information to the EPA; didn't they? (Objection.) A I didn't say spoon fed. We helped them. If they asked any questions, we helped them, and we tried to give them answers, we tried to tell them what conditions were in the industry. Q In fact, you did use that exact term "spoon feed," and that's what happened, the Friction Materials Institute, Standards Institute gave EPA only that information that they wanted the EPA to have? A That's not so. We gave them the information they asked for. Q You don't remember negotiating the questions they wanted answered? A No, I do not. You have some kind of a suspicion of all companies, all businesses. I don't. You and I approach things from different sides. I think we tried to help them out. Q Now Mr. Krause established that General P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0 126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 nri<::l.::lnF> - "Rv Mr nF>T.llr'.::l 14 : 46 : 0~ 18 14 46 : 04 27 14 46 : 08 03 14 46 09 : 1 9 14 46 12 : 27 1 4 46 : 1 4 : 15 14 46 : 16 : 1 9 14 : 46 :21 18 14 46 : 24 03 l 4 46 : 2 8 00 14 46 : 3 0 : 12 14 : 46 : 34: 18 (_':-~,:'":<:~',.' 4 6 : 3 6 : 2 l l 4 46 36 : 21 1 4 46 45 : 22 14 46 : 47 : 28 1 4 46 : 50 : ~ 0 14: 46 : 51 22 14 : 46 : 54 07 14 : 46 : 56 : 09 14 : 46 : 56 : l 5 14 : 46 : 59 : l 2 1 4 : 47 0 0 : l 5 14 : 47 03 : 03 Motors and Chrysler were not members of the Asbestos Study Committee; right? A That is right. Q But they were members of the FMSI? A At certain times. Q Sure. And they were regular members, right, active members, that was the membership? A They had a title called active member, but that didn't mean they actively participated as members. If you are trying to get small a on the thing, it doesn't go capital a is active members type, yes. But active members, they were not active. Q Well what I am driving at is as an active member, they received the bulletins? A Delegates and alternates, yes, they would have received bulletins. Q They received the minutes of the annual meeting of the FMSI? A That's correct. Q They received the minutes of the meetings of the Board of Directors? A I don't know about that. I forget how that went. P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 nric::l:::lnP 14 47:04:24 14 47 06 : 27 1 4 47 0 9: 00 14 47 13 : 06 14 47 16 : 0 9 1 4 47 18 : 06 14 47 20 : 21 14 47 22 2 4 14 47:24 12 1 4 47 26 : 24 1 4 47 2 9 : 2 4 1 4 47 32 09 47 34 15 14 47 36 : 0 6 14 47 42 04 14 47 44 25 1 4 47 48 06 1 4 47 51 04 14 47 52 00 1 4 47 57 01 14 48 00 : 24 14 48 03 :18 1 4 48 04 : 21 1 4 48 06 : l 8 It may be the Board of Directors minutes only went to board members. I'm not sure. Q They would of received the reports that the Asbestos Study Committee gave to the annual membership yearly? A The annual membership meeting would have reports from the committee chairman, and they would receive copies of that, yes. Q So you would agree with me that although they may have not sat on the Asbestos Study Committee, they would have been provided certain information about what that committee was doing? A Yes. And the person who received that was not necessarily a hygienist or a doctor or a medical man or something, he could have been somebody down in the sales department, a salesclerk, or something like that. And what he did with them, I have no idea. Q What would have prevented General Motors or Chrysler from having one of their employees sit on the Asbestos Study Committee if that's what they wanted? A If they had asked me for it, they would have been given a seat. I say that kind of P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 nric;:,l::.nc P._.u, Mr ncr.,,..::. 14 48:15:09 14 48 18 : 00 14 48 1 9 : 06 14 48 22 : 03 14 48 25 : 01 14 48 27 03 14 48 28 06 14 48 28 12 14 48 32 12 14 48 34 25 14 48 35 :15 14 48 40 :18 48 42 07 1 4 48 44 24 14 48 47 15 14 48 4 9: 06 14 48 50 : 06 14 48 54:18 14 48 55 : 07 14 48 57 :12 14 48 5 9: 01 14 49:0l 09 14 49:01 09 14 49: 02 24 presumptively. I have to go and check with my board on all this stuff. Q There was only essentially one or two employees at the Institute throughout your course of your employment there, you and an assistant; correct? A Yes. Yes. Q What other than financial reasons would have prevented the members of the Institute to hire more people? A Didn't need them. We don't put people on the payroll that we don't need. Q Could the members of the Institute have hired a doctor to serve as the medical director of the FMSI? A I don't think because I don't think it was in their constitution and bylaws to go in and hire outside research. Q They could have changed it if that what they wanted to do? A They could have changed, but they didn't change. Q Nothing would hired them from hiring a toxicologist or certified dental hygienist, if P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 Drislane - Bv Mr DeLuca 1 q 4 9 : 0 4 : -7 ,' 14 49: 06: 07 14 49 08: 25 14 49 12 : 07 14 49:12 13 14 49 :1 3 l 2 1 4 4 9 : 1 5 : 2s l 4 49:18:l 6 l 4 49:19: 06 l 4 49 : 2l : 25 14 49 :23: 27 14 49:26:15 49 : 29 : l 0 l 4 49: 30 :06 l 4 49: 33: 09 l 4 49:34 18 l 4 49 : 38 1s 14 49: 40: 13 14 49 : 48 22 14 49 : 48 22 14 49 : s0: 1s 14 49: 51 : 00 14 49: 53 : 09 14 49 : 55 : 28 that's what they wanted to do? A I guess if they had the money we could of gotten a rocket and sent that over to Iraq or something. Q That's funny? A No. It's the way you are talking. We could do all those things. We weren't there to do those things. Q You said that you never retained a consult to study asbestos? A Basically I don't think we ever retained a consultant. We had membership who had expertise. Q If the FMSI wanted to retain a consultant, the members could have funded that, couldn't they have? A With a huge increase in their dues. Q And if the FMSI wanted to do research on asbestos other than financial concerns, there would be no reason there couldn't have been; correct? A They didn't have it in the constitution and bylaws. They have to go and change the constitution and bylaws if they wanted to do. I P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (5 18) 438-0126 Troy (5 18) 283-5064 Schenectady (5 18) 355-9216 Clifton Park (5 18) 383-1241 Fax (5 18) 446-0582 nric::::l::ln,:::> P.u Mr DPT.nr.:=~ l 4 : 49 58 : l 3 l 4 : 50 02 07 l 4 50 02 2l l 4 50 : l 6 : 06 14 : 50 : 17 01 l 4 : 50 : 1 8 07 l 4 : 50 : 21 : 13 l 4 50 22:19 14 50 32 : 25 14 : 50 35 : 04 ~4 50 : 35: 04 14 50 : 3 5 : 06 ' ':,: 5 0 : 3 5 : 0 6 [:" I 14:50 : 35 :06 l 4: 50 : 35 : 06 don't know if I could have gotten it by the members. MR. DeLUCA: That's all I have. Thank you. MR. KRAUSE: Mr. Drislane, thank you very much, sir. MR. PIAZZA: This concludes the deposition of Edward Drislane. The time is now 2:42. (The examination of Edward W. Drislane was concluded at 2:50p.m.) (Exhibits 1 - 46 are attached to this deposition, and have been reproduced for the copies of this deposition.) P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0 126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582 nri.~lrinP - P.v Mr nPT.ll("'.::l 14 50 : 35 : 03 14 50 :35:03 STATE OF NEW YORK 14 50 35:03 14 50 35:03 COUNTY OF ss. 14 50 35 : 03 14 :50 : 35 : 03 1 4 5 0 : 3 5 : c3 14 50 : 35 : 03 14 50 : 35: 03 I have (heard) read the foregoing record of my testimony taken at the time and place noted in the heading hereof and I do hereby acknowledge it to be a true and correct transcript of the same. 14 50 : 35 : 03 14 :50 :35 :03 14 : 50 14 : 50 .50 35: 03 35: 03 35 : 03 EDWARD W. DRISLANE 14: 50 35 : 03 14: 50 35 : 03 14 50 :35: 03 Sworn to before me this day of 2003. 14 50:35:03 14:50 35:03 14 50 35:03 NOTARY PUBLIC 14 50 35 : 03 P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (51 8) 438-0126 Troy (51 8) 283-5064 Schenectady (51 8) 355-9216 Clifton Park (51 8) 383-1241 Fax (5 I8) 446-0582 14 : 50 : 35 : 03 14 50 : 35 : 03 14 50 : 35 : 03 CE RT I F I CA T I 0 N 14 50 : 35: 03 14 50 : 35 : 03 14 50 : 35 : 03 14 50 : 35 : 03 14 50 : 35 : 03 14 50 : 35: 03 l 4 : 50 : 3 5 : 0 3 I, PEGGY ALEXY, Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of New York, do hereby CERTIFY that the foregoing record taken by me at the time and place noted in the heading hereof is a true and accurate transcript of the same, to the best of my ability and belief. 14 50 : 35 : 03 14 50 : 35 : 03 <~' 50 : 3 5 : 0 3 14 50 : 35 : 03 14 50 : 35 : 03 14 50 : 35 : 03 14 50 : 35 : 03 DATED: December 26, 2002 14 50 : 35: 03 14 50 : 35: 03 14 50 : 35 : 03 14 50 :35 : 03 P.O. Box 12459 Albany, NY 12212-2459 Albany (518) 438-0126 Troy (518) 283-5064 Schenectady (518) 355-9216 Clifton Park (518) 383-1241 Fax (518) 446-0582