Document 2J9dvbYqpLqq1JJykaoQxKYVL

LLOYD AMBLER IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF KANAWHA COUNTY, WEST VIRGINIA IN RE: ASBESTOS PERSONAL CIVIL ACTION INJURY LITIGATION NO. 03-C-9600 May 2007 TRIAL GROUP (Proposed) VERNORSARTIN AND LORRAINE SARTIN, his wife Plai ntiffs CIVIL ACTION NO. 06-C-1655 A & I COMPANY, et al. Defendants MICHAEL J. SONGER and JEANNE SONGER, his wife vs. Plai ntiffs (06-C-1378 Kanawha A & I COMPANY, et al. County, WV) Defendants Philadelphia, Pennsylvania May 8, 2007 Videotape deposition of LLOYD AMBLER, taken on behalf of the Plaintiff at the office s of ilbra ha m, Lawler & Buba, 1818 Market Street, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, on the above date, commencing at 10:07 a.m., before Linda A. Ricciardi, Certified Court Reporter. Counsel for Defendant Crane Company SEGAL McCAMBRIDGE SINGER & MAHONEY BY: PATRICIA J. BAXTER, ESQUIRE United Plaza 30 South 17th Street Suite 1700 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215-972-7915 Counsel for Defendant Garlock Sealing Technologies, LLC fka GARLOCK, INC. WILLMAN & ARNOLD, LLP BY: MICHAEL A. KATZ, ESQUIRE 705 McKnight Park Drive Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15237 412-366-3333 (Vi. telephone) Counsel for Defendant George V. Hamilton, Inc. BAILEY & WYANT, PLLC BY: MORGAN KELLY, ESQUIRE 500 Virginia Street East Suite 600 Charleston, WestVirginia 25301 305-345-4222 (Via telephone) Counsel for Graybar Electric GROGAN GRAFFAM, P.C. BY: ROBERT D. LEIDIGH, ESQUIRE Four Gateway Center 12th Floor 444 Liberty Avenue Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15222 412-553-6336 (Via telephone) Counsel for Cleaver-Brooks, Inc. RILEY HEWITTWITTE & ROMANO Page 3 APPEARANCES: AARON J. DeLUCA, PLLC BY: AARON J. DeLUCA, ESQUIRE 21021 Springbrook Plaza Drive Suite 150 Spring, Texas 77379 281-378-5070 Counsel for Plaintiffs ROBERT PEIRCE & ASSOCIATES, PC BY: R. SCOTT MARSHALL, ESQUIRE CATHY GREINER, ESQUIRE 2500 GulfTower 707 Grant Street Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15219 412-281-7229 Counsel for Plaintiffs HAWKINS & PARNELL, LLP BY: ALBERT H. PARNELL, ESQUIRE The Woodrums Building 602 Virginia Street East Suite 200 Charleston, West Virginia 25301 404-614-7400 Counsel for Defendant CertainTeed Corporation GOODWIN PROCTER, LLP BY: VALERIE E. ROSS, ESQUIRE 901 New York Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20001 202-346-4000 Counsel for Defendant CertainTeed Corporation BAKER & LANCIANESE BY: JON B. ORNDORFF, ESQUIRE 1108 Third Avenue Suite 300 Huntington, West Virginia 25701 304-522-6910 BY: WILLIAM J. WITTE, ESQUIRE 650 Washington Road, Suite 300 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15228 412-341-9300 (Via telephone) Counsel for Ajax Magnethermic Page 2 Page 4 1 (Pages 1 to 4) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 7 asbestos company; A. What is your definition of an O asbestos company; Q. Do you consider CertainTeed to be 1 2 3 4 a company that made asbe sto s containing products for well over 60 years? 5 6 A. I don t kno^ ho^ far back they 7 started, Mr. DeLuca. I wa s involved __ the product I was involved with they 8 9 started to make in 1962, and they stopped the manufacturing of it in 10 11 1992. Q. During thattime period, 1962 to 1992, would you consider Certain 1 eed to 12 13 14 be part of the asbestos industry in 7 this country; A. I would consider them to be a 15 16 17 part of the asbestos cement pipe 18 industry, yes. Q. Question three, did CertainTeed value its profits more than worker 7 s a fe ty ; 19 20 21 22 MR. PARNELL: Object, form of 23 the question. You may answer. 24 Page 13 Q. At least for a number of years during your employment with CertainTeed your responsibilities included, among other things, the sales and marketing of CertainTeed asbestos cement pipe; is that right? A. Yes. Q. When you started in 1967 I understand that you were a technical service engineer for about two years; is that right? A. Yes. Q. And then following those two years you became the manager of sales engineering, which is a position you held for about two to three years after? A. Yes. Q. And then after you were a manager of sales engineering you became a sales manager, and your sales manager responsibilities included the sales of both asbestos cement pipe as well as PVC products, correct? Page 15 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 THE WITNESS: No. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Mr. Ambler, I understand that you have a bachelor's degree in civil engineering from Drexel Univers ity, correct o; A. Yes. Q. In what year did you get that? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 A. I graduated in 1962. Q. I understand that you are a civil 7 engineer by training : A. More by education, I worked at it 9 10 11 12 for a few years when I got out of 13 school, yes. Q. Do you have a professional engineering license7; 14 15 16 A. No, I do not. 17 Q. Do you have any post graduate 7 degrees; 18 19 A. Q. No. I am told that you worked for 20 21 CertainTeed from 1967 to about 2001; is 22 7 that correct; A. That's correct, yes. 23 24 Page 14 A. Q. Yes. PVC is polyvinyl chloride, a substance from which CertainTeed made pipe, correct;7 A. Yes. Q. After you were a sales manager you became the general marketing manager for the asbestos cement pipe 7 products, correct; A. Yes. Q. A. Q. That was in 1975? Ap proximately, yes. A few years later you became the vice president and general manager of 7 the asbestos cement pipe division; A. Yes. Q. And then you became senior vice president for asbestos cement products and PVC products? A. Eventually, I didn't start out that way. Q. In 1980 you were the senior vice 7 president, correct; A. Yes. Page 16 4 (Pages 13 to 16) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q. You had marketing responsibility 9 for asbestos cement products, correct; A. Q. In 1980, yes. And you were part of the pipe and 9 plastics group, correct; A. Yes. Q. And you did this until about 1985 ^hen you picked up the PVC product line a s welnlV; A. Well, I had more than just 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 marketing responsibility for asbestos cement pipe in 1980. Q. In 1989 did you become president 11 12 13 of the pipe and plastics group of Certa inTeed? A. Yes. Q. Is that a position you held until you retired in 2001? 14 15 16 17 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You were 61 years old when you 9 ret red, correct; 20 21 A. I believe that is correct, yes. 22 Q. That would make you how old to day9: 23 24 Page 17 you immediately began consulting for CertainTeed; is that right? A. Yes. Q. And you do consulting for CertainTeed strictly on asbestos cement pipe issues?; A. Or matters related to asbestos cement pipe, yes. Q. You would consider yourself to be a standing consultant with CertainTeed, 9 correct ; MR. PARNELL: Object to the form ofthe question. I dont know what a standing consultant means. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Do you know what a standing 9 consultant means; A. No. I was going to ask you your definition of standing consultant. Q. W ell, I am going to have to ask you for your definition because that is how you described yourself in May of 2005. Let me sho^ you your testimony. Page 19 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A. Q. I am 67 today. At present you have a consulting contract with CertainTeed, do you not? 1 2 3 A. Yes. Q. You also draw a retirement from Certa inTeed? 4 5 6 A. I am not sure if it is from CertainTeed or Saint Gobain, but I 7 8 draw a retirement. Q. Right now you receive a pension 9 10 as a result of your work at CertainTeed, correct? 11 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. You are currently employed as a 14 d consultant for CertainTeed on pa 9 asbestos issues, are you not; 15 16 A. Q. Asbestos cement pipe, yes. And you have been a consultant 17 18 for CertainTeed since about 2002? 19 A. I started one in 2002, yes. 20 Q. And you retired 12-31-2001, correct 9; 21 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. So when you retired as president 24 Page 18 Mr. Ambler, I am going to hand you page 57 of a deposition that you gave. MR. PARNELL: Do you have page 56 as well? MR. DeLUCA: I have page 1 through page -MR. PARNELL: So you have page 56? MR. DeLUCA: Sure. MR. PARNELL: Can you show 9 him that as well: MR. DeLUCA: I am going to show him the whole deposition. MR. PARNELL: Thank you. MR. DeLUCA: I have page 1 through 80, which is the whole deposition. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. And I am going to call your attention to the answer you gave at line 2. Let me read it to you, and I will hand you whatever you like. " 11 do consulting for CertainTeed on all asbestos cement pipe issues, I mean, I Page 20 5 (Pages 17 to 20) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 am just a standing consultant with them. I will be a witness on any cases n they want me to be. MR. PARNELL: What is the question? I understand you read him testimony, what is the 9 q u e stio n ; BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. The question is are you a standing consultant for CertainTeed? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 MR. PARNELL: Thank you. THE WITNESS: What I meant there, Mr. DeLuca, is that I am a consultant for CertainTeed on asbestos cement pipe issues, and 11 12 13 14 15 I do anything they ask me to do concerning asbestos cement pipe 16 17 on a consulting basis. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. That is what you meant when you 18 19 20 said I will be a witness on any case 9 they want me to be ; A. Yes. If you read the beginning 21 22 23 of that it pretty well explains what I 24 Page 21 exposed to CertainTeed asbestos cement 9 pip e was correct; MR. PARNELL: I object to the form of the question again. Calling upon a test of memory against a background of nothing, and I, therefore, object and move to strike the question. You may answer. THE WITNESS: There was a case that I can specifically remember where I did not question whether our pipe was there or not. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. A. When was that case? I believe it was the Dexter case. Q. A. Do you know what year that was? When I testified? Q. Yes, sir. A. I believe it was twice, 2005 and 2006. I could be corrected on that. Q. Would you agree that as of May 17, 2005 you had never testified in Page 23 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 meant by that. Q. Sir, have you ever testified in 1 2 court that the allegation that a mesothelioma victim was exposed to CertainTeed asbestos pipe was correct? MR. PARNELL: Object to the form of the question. You are calling upon this witness to remember every single statement that may have ever been made in 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 court, and that is inappropriate. You may answer the question. THE WITNESS: I have 11 12 13 testified in court where our pipe was in use. I don't remember saying what disease an individual got from what pipe. I don't believe I am qualified to answer that question, but I did state 14 15 16 17 18 19 that our pipe was in use. 20 BY MR. DeLUCA: 21 Q. Let me rephrase the question. 22 Have you ever testified in court that 23 the allegation that the individual was 24 Page 22 court that the individual who was alleging exposure to CertainTeed pipe 9 wa s correct ; MR. PARNELL: Object to the for m ofthe question. Again, it calls upon a test of memory without showing any records of prior testimony. You may answer. THE WITNESS: Well, I believe the Dexter case was around May of 2005. I could be wro ng on that. I don t kno^ ho^ many I testified to prior to that, sir, I would have to check, you know, check files on th at. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Let me hand you page 6 ofthe Higgins deposition that was from May of 2005, call your attention to the answer you gave on line 13. ^Vould you mind reading the question and the answer, ple ase? MR. PARNELL: I object and Page 24 6 (Pages 21 to 24) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 telling the witness not to read the question and answer out loud until he is asked a question by you. I instruct him not to do 1 2 3 4 that out loud. THE WITNESS: Where did you 9 ask me to read, sir; BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. The highlighted portion, sir, on 5 6 7 8 9 th e b otto m. A. There are t^o, on which page? Q. The one on the bottom. A. O n page 6? Q. A. Yes, sir. Well, that is nothing more than I 10 11 12 13 14 15 already told you. Q. Well, sir, you were asked, "Have 16 17 yo u ever testified in court with the allegation thatthe individual wa s exposed to CertainTeed asbestos cement u pipe was correct, the answer you ii 1 i ii gave, sir, was, I don t believe so. A. This was prior to, I believe, 18 19 20 21 22 23 prior to the Dexter care. 24 Page 25 headquarters located somewhere here in Philadelphia or near here? A. They are in Valley Forge, Pennsylvania, yes. Q. Does CertainTeed view itself as 9 an industry leader; MR. PARNELL: Object to the form ofthe question. He doesnt represent or is not a part of CertainTeed now, and I don't know how a corporation can have a view period . You may answer. THE WITNESS: I believe they feel that they are a leader in the building products they are involved in, yes. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Certainly during the time period you were employed by CertainTeed, CertainTeed viewed itself as an 9 industry leader, correct; A. We felt that we were one of the top companies in the products that we Page 27 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q. A. Oka y. So I believe I did answer your 1 2 question correctly, sir. Q. Mr. Ambler, do you still get paid $100 an hour for your testimony? A. No, no. Q. How much do you get paid? A. For mytestimony I get $125 an 3 4 5 6 7 8 hour. Q. Is it true you have been deposed somewhere around 30 to 40 times since you started consulting for CertainTeed? A. That's correct, yes. Q. Sir, do you know whether CertainTeed was founded in 1904 by a guy named George Bro^n? A. I believe Mr. Brown founded the company, and I believe it wa s 1 904. Q. Was it known as the General Roofing Manufacturing Company at that time ? A. That was the first name of the 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 company, yes. Q. Today is CertainTeed s corporate Page 23 24 26 were involved with, yes. Q. Now, from a review of CertainTeed's interrogatory responses I understand that in June of 1962 CertainTeed purchased from a company called Keasbey and Mattison four asbestos cement pipe plants. Do you 9 know that to be true, sir; A. Four asbestos cement pipe plants, that's correct, yes. Q. Sir, you are familiar with a company called Turner and Ne^all, a r e n 1 t yo u 9; A. I am not that familiar with them, I heard ofthem. Q. You know enough about them to say they were very much involved with Keasbey and Mattison, correct? A. I don't know who all was involved with Keasbey and Mattison, sir, that wa s prior to my time. Q. Sir, I am going to hand you a deposition thatyou gave on April 18, 2006 concerning the Whitehead case. Do Page 28 7 (Pages 25 to 28) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Nepali had any agreements with CertainTeed to supply asbestos fiber to Certa inTeed? A. Q. Yes, they did. Now, I understand that in 1976 Turner and Ne^all sold its interest in Turner and Ne^all to Saint Gobain, did 9 you know that: A. I kno^ they did sell an interest to Saint Gobain, yes. Q. And Saint Gobain fully acquired CertainTeed sometime in the 1980s, is 9 that your recollection ; A. Yes. Q. Saint Gobain is a French company, 9 is it not: A. Q. Yes. Traded on the Paris stock 9 e xc h a n g e ; A. Q. Yes. Would you agree, sir, from before 1930 based on your experience with the company CertainTeed was producing and 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 placing into the stream of commerce 24 Page 33 A. Well, we probably sold a little bit in the first quarter of 1993 because we stopped producing in the fourth quarter of 1992. Q. So when you stopped producing asbestos containing pipe in the fourth quarter of 1992 you sold whatever was in inventory and those sales may have taken Certain 1 eed into 1993, is that 9 what you are saying : A. It sluffed over into the beginning of 1993, not that long, because we didn't have that much. Q. Sir, did you know that CertainTeed sold the following asbestos containing products as set forth in their interrogatories: Asbestos roof coatings, blind nailing cement, plastic cement, sealing cement, cold process cement, cold process asphalt, asphalt fibered emulsions, aluminum roof coating, foundation coating, saturated asbestos felts, asbestos base sheathing, asbestos base flashing, Page 35 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 9 asbestos containing products: A. I don t kno w w hat they -- MR. PARNELL: Object to the form of the question. If you 1 2 3 4 know you can answer. THE WITNESS: I don't know what they were doing in 1930. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. But you do know CertainTeed 5 6 7 8 9 continued to sell asbestos products until 1992, correct? MR. PARNELL: Same objection, 10 11 12 same statement. THE WITNESS: We stopped 13 14 manufacturing asbestos cement pipe in the fourth quarter of 1992. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Is asbestos cement pipe an 9 asbestos containing product, sir: A. Yes. Q. So did CertainTeed continue to 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 sell asbestos containing products until 23 the fourth quarter of 1992? 24 Page 34 asbe sto s cap sheets, asbestos cement siding shingles, asbestos cement pressure pipe, asbestos cement sewer pipe, asbestos cement irrigation pipe, asbestos containing joint compounds, asbestos paper insulation for railroad cars, asbestos cloth insulation for railroad cars and asbestos containing acoustical plaster9: MR. PARNELL: Object to the form of the question. You may answer, if you know. THE WITNESS: What is the q u e stio n 9: BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Did you know that CertainTeed sold all of those asbestos containing products that I mentioned? A. Obviously I am very familiar with the pipe products that you mentioned. I heard they were involved with some of the other products, but not all that you had mentioned. Q. Sir, would you agree that prior Page 36 9 (Pages 33 to 36) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A. Sir, wait a second, I am not 1 finished. Q. Sure. Where is interrogatory question A. 2 3 4 number 9? Q. Here, let me help you. 5 6 Interrogatory number 9 is here, and the answer stretches over three or then 7 8 fo ur pages. Okay, thank you. Okay. A. Q. Mr. Ambler, here is my question 9 10 11 to you, what was the answer CertainTeed gave to interrogatory number 13? 12 13 A. No. 14 Q. Thank you. May I have that back? I want to ask you some questions about CertainTeed asbestos cement pipes. Is it correct that CertainTeed's asbestos 9 cement pipe was gray in color; 15 16 17 18 19 A. Q. A. Gray in colo r? Yes, sir. What does that mean to you, sir, 20 21 22 gray in col or9; Q. W ell, it looked like concrete 23 24 Page 41 9 written on the pipe ; A. Yes. Q. Is all CertainTeed pipe pressure pipe?9 MR. PARNELL: Is that the 9 q u e stio n ; BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. No, strike the question. Did CertainTeed ever make a cement pipe 9 that did not contain asbestos ; A. A cement pipe that did not -- 9 what is a cement pipe, sir; Q. I don't want to talk about PVC, 9 okay; A. Q. Yes, I understand. PVC did not contain asbestos, 9 correct ; That's correct. A. Q. CertainTeed was in the business 9 of making asbestos cement pipe ; A. Q. Yes. Did all of CertainTeed's cement 9 pipe contain asbestos fibers; A. We made a telephone conduit that Page 43 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 pipe A. Yes. Q. You are familiar with the color 9 gray , are you not, gray; Yes, but there is shades of gray, A. 1 2 3 4 5 sir. Q. A. There certainly are. That is why I asked you my 6 7 8 question. I can show you some gray 9 pipe that looks like it is almost black. Q. How would you describe the appearance of CertainTeed asbestos cement pipe9; Well, you just described it, you A. concrete in color, that's correct. said Q. Is that light gray, medium gray 9 or dark gray; A. Whatever you want. It is 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 concrete gray to me. 20 Q. It is not what I want, how would 21 9 you d e s cr i b e it ; 22 A. Concrete gray. 23 Q. Fair enough. Was CertainTeed 24 Page 42 did not contain asbestos fibers. Q. Was all of the CertainTeed cement pipe that was used for pressure pipe, sewer pipe or irrigation pipe asbestos co n ta in in g 9: MR. PARNELL: Prior to third quarter of 1993? MR. DeLUCA: Let me rephrase the question. MR. PARNELL: Thank you. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Between 1962 and the end of 1992 did all CertainTeed cement pipe used as pre ssure pipe, s ewer pipe or irrigation 9 pipe contain asbestos ; A. Yes. Q. Now, the CertainTeed asbestos cement pipe, did it have a rough 9 texture to the outside ; A. Q. Yes. W as the inside smooth? A. Q. Yes. Was it generally transported to 9 jo b sites on pallets; Page 44 11 (Pages 41 to 44) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 early 1960s CertainTeed was aware that 1 workers had the possibility of 2 contracting cancer if they were 3 subjected to large amounts of asbestos over long periods of time in O conjunction with smoking, correct; MR. PARNELL: Object to the 4 5 6 7 form of the question. There is no definition of who workers are, 8 9 could be workers in the field 10 n owh ere near asbe sto s . MR. DeLUCA: Mr. Parnell, would you please just provide the basis of the objection and leave it at that. So objection form I think would be sufficient. Can O we agree on that; MR. PARNELL: No. MR. DeLUCA: Could we agree that you won't make speaking O objections in this deposition ; MR. PARNELL: No, can't agree 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 to it, no. MR. DeLUCA: Can we agree Page 23 24 61 I believe that is in the interrog atories . BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. So you recall it was the mid '60s? A. Yes, sir. MR. DeLUCA: Could we go off O the record please; VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We are now going off the record, the time is 10:56. (Whereupon a short recess was ta ken.) VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We are now on the record, the time is 11:04. MR. DeLUCA: Would you read the last two questions and O answers back, please ; (Whereupon the court reporter read back from the record.) BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Mr. Ambler, you testified in the Caesuras case in Rasorial County in Page 63 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 that you will make objections consistent with the West Virginia Rules of Civil Procedure and Eviden ce? MR. PARNELL: I believe I 1 2 3 4 5 have done that. MR. DeLUCA: So we can agree O on that; MR. PARNELL: We can agree on 6 7 8 9 th at. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Mr. Ambler, I am sure by now you forgot my question so I am going to ask it again. Would you agree that in the early 1960s Certain 1 eed was aware that 10 11 12 13 14 15 workers had the possibility of 16 contracting cancer if they were 17 subjected to large amounts of asbestos 18 over long periods of time in O conjunction with smoking : MR. PARNELL: Same objection. THE WITNESS: Yeah, 19 20 21 22 CertainTeed was aware of that, I 23 believe it was like the mid 60s, 24 Page 62 January of 2005, I don t know if you recall that or not. MR. PARNELL: Is that a O question, does he recall: BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Do you recall that? A. I recall the name, Ijust don t recall when I testified. Q. It was a deposition held here in the very same la^ firm in Philadelphia. A. Q. Okay. Let me hand you your testimony from page 118 and 119, and ask you if that refreshes your recollection as to whether or not CertainTeed was aware of the possibility of contracting cancer if workers are subjected to large amounts of asbestos over long periods of time in conjunction with smoking in the early 1960s? A. Mr. DeLuca, whether it was 1963 or 1965 it wa s sometime in that time period thatthey were aware of that. It wa s asbestosis in 62. Page 64 16 (Pages 61 to 64) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 risk of lung cancer for particularly smokers, but CertainTeed 'was focused on 1 2 controlling the asbestos dust in their plants so that situation wouldn't 3 4 ari se. MR. DeLUCA: Object as non 5 6 re sponsive . BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Now, sir, you previously 7 8 9 testified that CertainTeed knew that 10 asbestos could cause a disease called asbestosis in 1962, correct? A. They were aware of that, yes, if you were, again, subjected to large amounts of asbestos over long periods 11 12 13 14 15 of time. Q. How large an amount of asbestos O did you have to be exposed to, sir; A. It was our understanding that you had to be at least at the requirements of the governing agencies at that 16 17 18 19 20 21 point, depending on what point we are 22 talking about. Q. W hat government agencies had Page 23 24 69 A. Not that I am aware of, no. Q. Nonetheless, CertainTeed kne^ in 1962 that asbestos could cause asbestosis, CertainTeed never put a warning on its asbestos products to that effect in 1962, did it? A. Again, sir, it was our opinion that the recommended practices for the installation of the product in the field was not an issue, and it proved out to be right later on when we did th e te sting. MR. DeLUCA: Object as non responsive. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Sir, I am going to have the question read back to you, I would like you to answer the question. A. I will continue to answer it as I have, sir. MR. DeLUCA: Would you read 9 it back, please ; (W hereupon the court reporter read back from the record.) Page 71 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 regulations in 1962? 1 A. It was the ACGIH, and then also 2 the US Bureau of Health came in and 3 tested in accordance to the ACGIH. 4 Q. When did the U.S. Public Health 5 Service come in, s ir? 6 A. Come in where, CertainTeed 9 plants ; Q. Yes. A. They came into the plants in the 7 8 9 10 '60s. Q. They studied the manufacturing process, correct9; A. They took counts. 11 12 13 14 Q. They weren t taking counts of pipe being cut in the field, were they, 15 16 sir? 17 A. Q. They came into the plants. Sir, my question was they weren't taking dust counts of workers cutting 9 pipe in the field were they, sir; A. Who wasn't? Q. The United States Public Health 18 19 20 21 22 23 Service. 24 Page 70 MR. PARNELL: Mr. Ambler, you have an obligation to answer, to either adopt your prior answer, which you have a right to do under the law or you may rephrase and verbalize another answer. THE WITNESS: Could you read my answer please, I am sorry? (Whereupon the court reporter read back from the record.) THE WITNESS: That is my a n swer, s ir. MR. DeLUCA: Object as non responsive. I am entitled to an answer to the question that is responsive. MR. PARNELL: I believe the answer was responsive. MR. DeLUCA: Well, that is your opinion. MR. PARNELL: You can certify the question, ask Judge W ilson, if Judge W ilson agrees with you you get a reshot to ask that Page 72 18 (Pages 69 to 72) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 question or not. MR. DeLUCA: I am going to change the videotape right now, and then we will continue. VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We are n o^ going off th e record. This completes tape number 1, the time 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 is 11:13. 8 We are no^ on the record. This begins tape number 2. The 9 10 time is 11:14. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Mr. Ambler, did CertainTeed put a 11 12 13 warning on any of its asbestos products in 1962? A. I can only answer for pipe, and 14 15 16 we did not put a warning on our pipe products for the reasons that I gave 17 18 you because we fe It that it wa s our understanding that if you would follow recommended work practices in our the installation guide you would not have 19 20 21 22 an ssue in the field, and it proved 23 that we were well within the OSHA out 24 Page 73 as you want to any answer that you give, okay? So you can answer his question yes or no, but that doesn't prevent you from then explaining the answer before he gets to ask another question. So you may answer yes or no, and if it calls for an explanation do so. THE WITNESS: I think I've just done what Mr. Parnell said I could do. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. So the answer is no, with the e x pl. anation you gave 9; A. Yes. Q. Now, Mr. Ambler, you worked with an or at least knew a man named Leon a H orowitz, correct? A. I did not w ork 'with him, I kn e,w of him. I don t believe I ever met hi . Q. You know that he was the safety director of CertainTeed at some point Page 75 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 standards when the testing was done. MR. DeLUCA: Object to the 1 2 non-responsive portion. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Sir, do you have an agenda today? A. Do I have an agenda? Q. A. Yes, sir. What do you mean by an agenda? Q. Are there certain things that you want to say today or are you just here to answer questions;9 A. I want to try to answer your questions to the best of my ability and answer any questions that either Mr. Parnell or Ms. Ross may have. Q. Can you answer my question with a yes or a no? Did CertainTeed put a warning on its asbestos cement pipe in 1962? MR. PARNELL: Mr. Ambler, you 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 have a right under the law of West Virginia to answer the question yes or no and explain in 21 22 23 any way you want to for as long 24 Page 74 9 in time, do you not: A. Q. Yes. And that Mr. Horowitz was very much involved in researching asbestos hazards and communicating the results 9 of his research to management, correct; A. As far as I know that is correct, yes. Q. You know that Mr. Horowitz attended a meeting in New York City in 1 964, correct? A. What meeting are you speaking of, sir ? Q. That would be the Selikoff 9 conference ; A. Yes. Q. In association with the New York Academy of Sciences? A. Q. A. Yes. In October of '64? I don't know when it was, I know it wa s i n 64 or I heard it wa s in 64. Q. You also knew a man named Mr. Hutchcroft, do you recall Mr. Page 76 19 (Pages 73 to 76) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Hutch croft? 1 A. Yes. Q. What position with CertainTeed O did he have; A. At w hat time period? Q. ^Well, at any point during the time period that you were employed by Certa inTeed . 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 A. H e wa s one ofthe directors and 9 one ofthe managers in the technical department w hen I came to w ork for the 10 11 company. Q. The technical department that O serviced the pipe group ; A. Yes. Q. Wa s he employed by CertainTeed ^h en you started in 1967? 12 13 14 15 16 17 A. Q. Yes. He had been there for sometime 18 19 before that, correct, to the best of O your knowledge ; A. Yes. (Whereupon memo dated 20 21 22 23 November 3, 1964 was marked for 24 Page 77 MR. PARNELL: Okay. THE WITNESS: Yes. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. It also discusses a disease O called mesothelioma, does it not; A. That word is mentioned in this l etter, ye s . Q. Yes, sir. And, Mr. Ambler, it discusses mesothelioma in the context of an example of a little girl who lived near an asbestos factory until she was just five years old, she moved a^ay, and 20 years later she got O mesothelioma, do you see that; A. Sir, do you want me to read this O whole letter; Q. Yes. We will go off the record while you do that. MR. PARNELL: Off the record. VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We are going off the record. The time is 11:20. (Whereupon a discussion was held offthe record.) Page 79 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 identification as Exhibit 16.) 1 BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Let me hand you what I have 2 3 marked as Exhibit 16, which is a memo dated November 3, 1964. I believe you 4 5 have seen this before, but please take 6 a look at it. A. Okay. Q. You have been asked about that O document before, correct; A. Q. I believe I have, yes. As you said earlier, Mr. 7 8 9 10 11 12 Hutchcroft worked in the pipe division O technical department, is that right; A. Yes, yes. Q. This memo that I handed you, 13 14 15 16 which has been marked as Exhibit 16, discusses the conference in New York in October '64, correct? MR. PARNELL: Do you need to 17 18 19 20 read the document in order to O answer those questions ; THE WITNESS: Well, so far I 21 22 23 don t have to . 24 Page 78 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We are no^ on the record. The time is 11:25. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Mr. Ambler, while we were off the record did you have a chance to review the document that I marked as Exhibit 16? A. Yes, I did. Q. As you stated earlier, it does O discuss mesothelioma, correct; A. Yes. Q. And it discusses mesothelioma in the context of a little girl who lived near an asbestos factory until she was five years old and then she moved away, and 20 years later she got O mesothelioma, correct; A. Yes, in England. Q. This was reported to Mr. Hutchcroft in 1964? A. The letter was written by Mr. Shaw to Mr. Hutchcroft concerning that meeting, yes. Page 80 20 (Pages 77 to 80) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q. It goes on to talk about another 1 little girl who had mesothelioma, and 2 itturns out she is a playmate of the O first girl, did you see that: A. Yes. Q. This letter also references a 3 4 5 6 d o ctor, Dr. Ragelschmidt, did you see that? 7 8 A. It doesn tjump out at me. O was that: Q. Can I find it for you, sir? here 9 10 11 A. Q. Sure. It is here on page 2 at the very 12 13 bottom, paragraph 3, I kno^ it is a 14 little -A. You getthat out ofthat? Q. Can you see it, sir? 15 16 17 A. I don t kno w w hat the name is, it 18 is hard to read, but go ahead, what is 19 your question, I am sorry? Q. It says, "Ragelschmidt reported that the amount of asbestos exposure in time and quantity is not necessarily 20 21 22 23 the important factor. One or a very 24 Page 81 opinion that the amount of asbestos exposure and the duration of exposure were not necessarily the important factors in the development of o mesothelioma, correct; A. That is what this gentleman reported, yes. Q. That is somewhat different than the concept of large amounts of asbestos over long periods of time that O you referenced earlier, correct: A. That is this gentleman's opinion, sir. Q. Do you know what research CertainTeed did following this 1964 letter to Hutchcroft to determine whether this one physician, whether he O was right or wrong : A. I can only tell you that CertainTeed did everything thatthey could and focused their attention on keeping the fiber dust counts in the plant below the standards at that particular time. Page 83 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 few asbestos bodies can serve as the 1 mechanism for the development of a 2 malady and an asbestos body may lay 3 dormant in a human body many years b efore becoming active. ^W ere you able O to make that out: A. Yes. Q. Mr. Hutchcroft was advised by 4 5 6 7 8 this letter that at least some 9 physicians had the opinion that the amount of asbestos exposure and the duration of exposure wasn't necessarily 10 11 12 the important factor in the development O of mesothelioma, correct; MR. PARNELL: Object to the form of the question, 13 14 15 16 particularly the word some. THE WITNESS: Mr. Hutchcroft was advised by Mr. Shaw that that is what this doctor's opinion 17 18 19 20 wa s . BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Mr. Hutchcroft was advised that 21 22 23 at least one physician was of the 24 Page 82 MR. DeLUCA: Object as non responsive. ^Would you read the O question back, please: (Whereupon the court reporter read back from the record.) MR. PARNELL: You have the same options, you may adopt answers you gave or give a new one. THE WITNESS: No, I will stay with the answer I gave. MR. DeLUCA: Your objection was not responsive, sir, you can't adopt a non responsive a n swer. MR. PARNELL: I believe it was responsive. MR. DeLUCA: That is your opinion. MR. PARNELL: And you have yours, and our only option other than arguing with the witness is to take it before Judge Wilson, which I am more than willing to Page 84 21 (Pages 81 to 84) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 do. And if he rules in your fa vor I wil l make him available again, Mr. DeLuca. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Mr. Ambler, you cannot tell me that CertainTeed did any research to 1 2 3 4 5 6 determine whether this physician was O right or wrong, correct; A. They didn t do any research i pertaining to this individual, that s correct as far as I can tell, as far as 7 8 9 10 11 I kno w. Q. As far as you know this individual or the opinion expressed in O this letter, correct; A. Well, and that is going a little further now. As I said, Mr. DeLuca, it was CertainTeed s understanding that if 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 you controlled the dust in the plant in accordance with what the standard was, 19 20 you had a safe operation in that plant. That was CertainTeed s understanding that you had to follow 21 22 23 the standards, and CertainTeed not only 24 Page 85 'were being set either by ACGIH or OSHA. MR. DeLUCA: Object as non responsive. Would you read the question back for the witness, please. MR. PARNELL: Can we go off O the record for a moment, please ; MR. DeLUCA: Can I have th e -MR. PARNELL: It will be helping you if we go off the record . MR. DeLUCA: I will accept th at. VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We are n o w going offthe record. The time is 11:32. (W hereupon the witness confers with his attorney.) MR. PARNELL: I think it would be best if you ask the question again as narrowly as you can and then go from there. VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We are Page 87 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 tried to follow the standards, they tried to do better than the standards through the whole period that I was 1 2 3 there. MR. DeLUCA: Object as non 4 5 responsive. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Did CertainTeed ever undertake 6 7 8 any investigation to determine whether 9 mesothelioma could be caused by relatively short or relatively low O doses ofasbe sto s ; A. I don't know how else to answer your question, sir. CertainTeed was 10 11 12 13 14 focused on keeping the dust counts below the standards that they were 15 16 workin g with i n . The government, sir, OSHA or ACGIH never differentiated between 17 18 19 fib er ty pes. You had to control the 20 fiber in the plant, and that was our 21 understanding what you had to do and 22 that is what we did, and we set 23 standards lower than the standards that 24 Page 86 no^ on the record. The time is 11:33. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Mr. Ambler, I am going to have the court reporter read the last O question back to you, okay; A. Sure. (Whereupon the court reporter read back from the record.) THE WITNESS: The answer is as far as I know, no, they did not, but for the reason that it was CertainTeed's understanding that as long as you kept your plants at or below the standards and controlled the fiber you would have a safe operation. MR. DeLUCA: Object to the non'responsive portion. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Sir, you previously testified that CertainTeed had an in plant respirator policy in 1967; is that right? Page 88 22 (Pages 85 to 88) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A. Yes. 1 Q. Respirators were available to all 7 e m ployees if they wanted to wear them ; A. Yes. 2 3 4 Q. But they were only mandatory in 5 areas where there was a potential of 6 ha ving exposure greater than what the O regulations were at the time ; A. Yes. Q. What would those areas be where 7 8 9 10 the re was a greater potential for ex 30 s ure7; A. Depending on, you know, obviously 11 12 13 we tried to control the plant through 14 e n gineering design, butthere were 15 times when a maintenance man would go in and clean out a specific area, to d he would be required to wear a an have 16 17 18 respirator. And if there were certain areas ere a saw was not -- did something wh d fowled up or miss functioned we an 19 20 21 22 ma ke people put respirators on right 23 aw ay until we could correct that 24 Page 8 9 A. If it was such that your dust cou nt at that particular location was less than the standard he was not required to 'wear one. Q. How frequently were dust counts ta k e n at CertainTeed s plants, sir? A. Depending on the time period, they w ere ta ken at-- every s tati o n w a s n at a minimum of twice a year by take people in the plant, and then they the e audited by people come out from (D T hea dquarters, and then OSHA'would come in u nannounced and ta ke dust counts. f you had an operation that e was a potential for a process ther issue or a process problem they would them more frequently to make take certain that that area was well p rote cte d . Q. Sir, you would agree that OSHA not coming into your plants until wa s 1972 atthe earliest? A. That s correct, US Bureau of Hea lth would come in prior to that, Page 91 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Pa rticular situation. (Whereupon photograph was marked for identification as Exhibit 17.) BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Can you identify what is depicted n Exhibit 17 for me, please? A. I believe that is the scrap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 c r usher, I believe it is. Q. What does the scrap crusher do? A. It crushes defective pipe or rap so you can re-process it back sc th 'ough the system. Q. Would crush asbestos cement pipe 7 that was unsuitable for sale; A. Or scrap, yes, either one, right. Q. W ould that be a job where CesrtainTeed would want that person to 7 Wjar a respirator; A. There were times when this person 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 wa s required to we ar a respirator, yes. 21 Q. There were times when that person 22 o had that job was not required, wh 23 7 co rre ot ; 24 Page 9 0 . OSHA wasn't established until yes 1970, and they settheir first permit standard in 72. (Whereupon photograph was marked for identification as Exh ib it 1 8.) BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Sir, can you tell me what is dep icted in Exhibit 18? A. That pipe is coming out of the sec ondary tunnel as far as I can see. Q. And the worker in that picture isn't 7 wearing a respirator, is he ; A. No. Q. Would you agree that people who handling raw asbestos fibers would are e larger exposures to asbestos than hav say perhaps to people who didn 1 t7; A. I don't understand that question, sir. Q. Would you agree that the workers handled the raw bags of asbestos who rs would have potentially large fibe 7 exp osures to asbestos ; Page 92 23 (Pages 89 to 92) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A. I guess the potential would be there. O bviously depending on w hat the 1 2 counts were in that area. (Whereupon photograph was marked for identification as Exhibit 1 9.) BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. For example, the gentlemen who are depicted in Exhibit 19 would be 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 among those worker s wh o could potentially have large exposures to 9 asbestos, correct; A. I think that is pretty relative, Mr. DeLuca. I don't know what you mean 10 11 12 13 14 by that. I can only say there were dust counts taken at these work stations, and if there was a potential for the exposure to be greater than 15 16 17 18 what the standard was they would be required to wear respirators. There 19 20 are certain areas where you have asbestos rolled up in the pipe. Q. The gentlemen depicted in this 21 22 23 picture are not wearing respirators, 24 Page 93 (W hereupon photograph w a s marked for identification as Exhibit 20.) BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Does Exhibit 20 depict a stock 9 pile of asbestos ; A. Q. It is relatively close, yes. Can you even make out on the bags on the right-hand side says something like product of South Africa, can you 9 see th at: A. Yes. Q. That would be the crocidolite asbestos that CertainTeed used, 9 correct ; A. Could be, could be, they bought some white fiber from South Africa. (Whereupon photograph was marked for identification as Exhibit 21.) BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. And Exhibit 21 would depict a worker with a fork lift taking a pallet of asbestos fibers off the shelf so to Page 95 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 9 are they, sir; A. Q. They are not. And they are handling bags of raw 9 asbestos fibers, are they not; A. The picture speaks for itself, 1 2 3 4 5 sir. Q. Yes, it does, but does this depict workers handling bags of raw asbestos? Strike that question. Sir, does Exhibit 19 depict 9 workers handling bags of raw asbestos; A. Yes, it does. Q. In CertainTeed s plants it had thousands of bags of raw asbestos at 9 any given time, did it not; A. Thousands, I mean, we tried -- I don't know what the word thousands means. Q. How about hundreds? 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 A. It had enough to carry on the 20 operation. ^Ve try to keep -- we try to turn our inventory six times a year so 21 22 we would keep a two month supply of 23 materials to make pipe. 24 Page 94 9 speak, correct; A. Yes. Q. That gentleman is not wearing a 9 respirator, is he ; A. That s correct. (Whereupon photograph was marked for identification as Exhibit 22.) BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Here is a picture, sir, of another gentleman looking at some type of instrumentation, that is Exhibit 22, that gentleman is wearing a respirator, correct 9; A. That's correct. Q. Or at least it is a dust mask, it 9 is not a respirator that has canisters ; A. It is a respirator that would suffice for the operation the individual had. Q. What kind of machine is he working on, do you know9; A. He is ju st w orking on a chart at this point. Page 96 24 (Pages 93 to 96) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q. Nonetheless he has resp irato ry 9 protection, correct; A. Is this a picture from a CertainTeed plant, sir? Q. It is a picture I got from CertainTeed s lawyers. A. This doesn't necessarily mean he 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 i s w earing a respirator to mark off 8 these charts, he may have come from 9 another operation where the respirator is required, and he is just marking off 10 11 the chart to see what the readings are or put something on that chart. Q. Can you identify what kind of 9 machinery he is working on ; A. Not from this picture, no. I 12 13 14 15 16 don t know where he came from. Q. You would agree that in 1967 17 18 CertainTeed had dust collection systems 9 in their plant, correct; A. Yes. 19 20 21 Q. CertainTeed was aware of engineering controls to prevent excessive levels of asbestos in the 22 23 24 Page 97 mesothelioma, you were aware of that relationship in 1970; is that right? A. Yes. Q. CertainTeed belonged to various industrial trade organizations, correct? For example, it joined the AIA the Asbestos Information Association in the early 1970s? A. Yes. Q. Perhaps in '71 or '72? A. I believe it was that time peri od, yes. Q. You personally attended Asbestos Information Association meetings from the A. Q. ate 1970s until 1991, correct? Yes, yes. Did you ever get a chance to meet a gentleman named Matthew S^itonic? A. M atthe w w ho? Q. S^ito nic. A. No. Q. Did you ever meet Mr. Pigg? A. Yes. Q. Bob Pigg was in charge of the AIA Page 99 9 workplace, correct; A. CertainTeed, that was their whole objective is to control the dust in the 1 2 3 plants through engineering means, yes. Q. The engineering means that CertainTeed employed would include large industrial dust collectors, 9 correct ; A. Yes. They also had work practices within the plant, too, but, 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 yes. Q. Large industrial dust collectors are not typically employed at job sites where asbestos cement pipe is 9 installed, are they; A. No. Q. Now, I showed you that memo 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 earlier from 1964 addressed to Mr. 18 Hutchcroft that referenced 19 mesothelioma. Do you recall that? A. Yes. Q. With respect to your personal knowledge about the relationship between asbestos exposure and 20 21 22 23 24 Page 98 9 duri ng the time you attended meetings; A. I don't know whether he was at the very beginning, but he took that job over in time, yes. Q. Did Mr. Pigg as president of the AIA send you correspondence about the AIA' s efforts to comment on proposed legis lation regarding asbestos exposure9; A. Yes. Q. The AIA lobbied the government on behalf of its memberships for less strict regulations concerning asbestos exposure in the workplace, didn 1 t it9; A. They lobbied to make certain that any standard that was going to be imp le m ented wa s based on good scientific and health information, yes, they did. Q. They resisted regulatory efforts would have been very expensive for that 9 industry to implement, correct; A. I don't know how to answer that question, Mr. DeLuca. I can only Page 100 25 (Pages 97 to 100) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 assure you that any regulations that we re implemented or any regulations that were instituted that companies 1 2 3 spent the money to make certain they met those standards, I think it we nt 4 5 all the way down to a tenth of a fiber 6 in time. MR. DeLUCA: Object to 7 8 everything after I don t kno^ ho^ 9 to answer that, it is non 10 responsive. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. I want to ask you about some things you said in the past, and determine whether they are still your 11 12 13 14 15 opinions today. Do you still believe that a company had the responsibility to advise users of the proper way of installing pipe, asbestos cement pipe, without generating excessive amounts of 16 17 18 19 20 21 d u st? A. Did I say it like that, without generating excessive? I believe a Page 22 23 24 101 right, has the obligation to do that. I just question the word excessive. I think they have to make certain that they are telling their customers the proper way to install the pro d u ct. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. You believe that the company had a responsibility to advise people who were using the products the corporation made as to how they should use the products without putting themselves in a position where they could be injured, 9 correct ; A. To install without being injured, correct. Q. Sir, in 1962 CertainTeed realized that if workers used an abrasive tool to cut the asbestos cement pipe, a high powered abrasive tool, that that worker would be generating high levels of asbestos dust which could cause 9 disease, correct; Page 103 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 company has a right to make certain that their customers install the pipe, to make certain that their customers 1 2 3 know how to install the product 4 properly. Q. Sir, do you recall being deposed, again at the very same law firm we are at today, in October of 2002 in relation to the Lenhart case? 5 6 7 8 9 A. Q. Yes. It was from Dallas County, Texas? 10 11 A. Q. Yes. And on page 77 beginning at line 12 13 19 you stated, I feel that the company 14 had the responsibility to advise users 15 of the proper way of installing pipe without generating excessive amounts of n asbe sto s dust. MR. PARNELL: I object to the form of the question, improper question. You can answer. THE WITNESS: I absolutely 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 think the company has the right and the obligation -- not the Page 23 24 102 A. It depends on the tool, sir. I mean, there were tools that had high abrasive operations that would have been within the standard atthe time. Q. Sir, my question focused on high powered abrasive tools. A. Yes. Q. CertainTeed realized that the use of high powered abrasive tools could expose a worker to high levels of asbestos dust which could cause disease and CertainTeed kne^ that in 1962, correct 9; A. Yes, if it was done continuously over long periods oftime. MR. DeLUCA: Object to the non-responsive portion. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Sir, you were aware, at least ^hen you got there in 1967, that there were mechanical means used to saw pipe including using a hack saw or a hand saw, correct9; A. To cut pipe, yes. Page 104 26 (Pages 101 to 104) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q. Yes, sir. 1 A. Yes. Q. I n fa ct, didnt some of the use instructions provided by CertainTeed 2 3 4 include a suggestion thatthat wa s one O way to cut the pipe ; A. Which way, sir? Q. With a hand saw or hack saw. A. Yes. Q. CertainTeed management became aware in the mid 1970s that it was 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 becoming prevalent in the field that workers were using high powered disc sa^s to cut CertainTeed cement pipe? 12 13 14 A. Q. Correct, yes. It was your own experience that the power saw was coming into major use in the mid 1970s? A. Correct. Q. You would agree that if power 15 16 17 18 19 20 saws were used to cut asbestos cement pipe it could expose the workers to 21 22 O high dosages of asbestos dust, correct; 23 A. If done over __ continuously for 24 Page 105 i your question, that s correct. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Did you say anything when you ans'wered the question in 2002 about exposed to asbestos dust at high enough O levels over long period of time, sir; A. I didnt say over long periods of time, but I am saying it no'w. Q. So, sir, going back to Exhibit 3, which was the installation guide that we talked about earlier, if you turn to page 39, does CertainTeed in its installation guide discuss the use of a portable electric sa'w 'with a flexible or abrasive blade as a means of cutting O asbestos cement pipe ; A. Yes. Q. That was one of the ways that CertainTeed recommended that its cement pipe be cut, wasn 1 t itO; MR. PARNELL: I object to the difference in tone with the screaming of the word recommended, and move to strike Page 107 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 some length of time it could generate fiber that would be greater than the OSHA standard, yes, that was being 1 2 3 implemented in 1976. MR. DeLUCA: Object to the 4 5 non-responsive portion. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Sir, going back to your testimony in the Lenhart case from October 2002, you were asked on page 72, line 19 the following question, And so CertainTeed 6 7 8 9 10 11 certainly understood that if power saws were used that could expose workers to excessive levels of asbestos from the O" v a s b e sto s cement pipe; lour answer on page 73 line 12 was Yes, if power sa^s were used it could expose workers to high dosages of asbestos pipe." Did I O read that correctly; MR. PARNELL: Object to the form of the question. It is an 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 improper way. THE WITNESS: It is no 22 23 different than how I answered 24 Page 106 the question. MR. DeLUCA: I am not s cr eaming. MR. PARNELL: The elevation in tone, I move to strike the question. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Let me ask it again. MR. PARNELL: Thank you. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Let me see if I can make sure this tone is all right. MR. PARNELL: I move to strike those comments. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Isn't it true, Mr. Ambler, that in Exhibit 3, CertainTeed s very o^n installation guide, CertainTeed recommended the use of a portable electric saw with a flexible or abrasive blade to cut its asbestos O cement pipe; A. It does state here, sir, that as you say, a flexible portable electrical Page 108 27 (Pages 105 to 108) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 saw with a flexible blade may also be used. MR. DeLUCA: Would you read the answer back, please9; (Whereupon the court reporter read back from the record.) BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Sir, it says a flexible or O a bra sive ! A. Oka y, I am sorry, Mr. DeLuca, it 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 says what you said, yes. Q. It talks about using an abrasive 9 blade to cut pipe ; A. Sir, it says you can use a portable electric saw that has either -- with a flexible or abrasive blade, that is what it says, and that is not much different than the electric machining tool that was being used in the field, which generated dust less 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 than the OSHA standard. MR. DeLUCA: Object to the 21 22 non-responsive portion. BY MR. DeLUCA: 23 24 Page 109 release was done in 1977, correct? A. Yes, for the reasons I stated. That is when the abrasive disc saw was becoming a prevalent way to cut pipe, and we were concerned that that would be generating fiber greater than the OSHA standards and we tested it. So, therefore, we tested all the other ways that had already been recommended, and they proved out that we were right. MR. DeLUCA: Object to the non-responsive portion. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Mr. Ambler, you are not aware of any tests performed on asbestos containing pipe to determine levels of exposure prior to 1977, are you? A. No, because it was our opinion that the proper -- that the ways we were recommending did not generate fiber in excess of the OSHA standards. MR. DeLUCA: Object to the non-responsive portion. Page 111 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q. Not only did CertainTeed 1 recommend the use of a portable 2 electric sa'w 'with a flexible or abrasive blade to cut its asbestos cement pipe, CertainTeed knew those tools were being used to cut the pipe O in the field, correct; A. ^Which tools, sir? Q. Portable electric saws with flexible or abrasive blades. A. O h, they kn e'w that some of those 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 machines 'were probably being used, ye s. Q. Mr. Ambler, you would agree that CertainTeed recognized that asbestos 12 13 14 exposure could cause the diseases asbestosis and lung cancer before 1977, correct 9; A. That's correct, yes. Q. CertainTeed recognized that 15 16 17 18 19 asbestos could cause mesothelioma before 1977, correct? A. That's correct, yes. Q. And the very first test done on 20 21 22 23 asbestos cement pipe to determine fiber 24 Page 110 BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Sir, do you know what a mantra is? A. A what? Q. Mantra, M-A-N-T-R-A? A. Q. No, I don t. Now, Mr. Ambler, you recognize that there is the possibility of high asbe sto s dust release if recommended work practices are not followed, 9 correct ; A. Can I have that question again, pl. ease9; (Whereupon the court reporter read back from the record.) THE WITNESS: Yes. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. CertainTeed knew that workers were using abrasive saws to cut asbestos cement pipe before it placed its caution label on the product in 1977, correct? A. In the mid 70s CertainTeed was being -- it was being found out that Page 112 28 (Pages 109 to 112) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 the abrasive disc, gas operated abrasive disc saw was starting to be used prevalently in the mid 70s, and 1 2 3 that is when the testing wa s done. MR. DeLUCA: Object as non 4 5 responsive. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Sir, the question is this, CertainTeed ne^ that workers were using abrasive saws to cut asbestos cement pipe before it placed its caution label on the product in 1977, correct? A. I don't understand your question at all, Mr. DeLuca, I am very sorry, I can't answer your question the way it is asked. Q. Let me see if I can make it 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 easier to understand. A. Thank you. Q. CertainTeed first put a caution 18 19 20 label on asbestos cement pipe in 1977, O do you agree with that; 21 22 A. No, I d o n t. 23 Q. Did CertainTeed put a caution 24 Page 113 A. That s correct, yes. Q. Let me restate the question. IMr. Ambler, CertainTeed kne'w that workers were using abrasive sa'ws to cut its asbestos cement pipe before it placed its caution label on the product in 1979, correct? A. Yes, but 'when they found outthat the workers 'were using the high powered abrasive disc saw they did the recommended work -- they did the testing and put out the recommended work practices in 1977. The whole industry put it out in 1977. MR. DeLUCA: Object to the non-responsive portion. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Sir, do you think that -- strike that. Sir, prior to the time that CertainTeed put a caution label on its product in 1979 CertainTeed kne'w that the use of the abrasive saw could create certain amounts of asbestos dust, didn'1 t it7? Page 115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 label on its product before 1977? 1 A. Q. No. Let me try it again. CertainTeed 2 3 first put a caution label on asbestos cement pipe in 1977, correct? A. No. 4 5 6 Q. Okay. When did Certain 1 eed first 7 put a caution label on asbestos cement pipe?7 8 9 A. In 1979, but we came out with the 10 recommended work practices and distributed those to everybody in 1977. And if you are going to show me a 11 12 13 deposition, sir, I am going to tell you 14 something. Excuse me. Q. Go ahead, keep going. 15 16 A. Q. No. No, please. Did you have 7 something you wanted to add : 17 18 19 A. Q. No, I d o n t. I am sorry, you are right. CertainTeed didn't put a caution label 20 21 22 on its products in 1977, it didn t do 23 that until 1979, correct? 24 Page 114 A. What time period are we talking 7 about, sir; Q. Prior to 1979, sir. A. I have answered that question twice no'w to the best of my ability. They knew it, yes, when they found out the abrasive disc saw was being used we ran the test and got the results and distributed the results right away. Q. When the test 'was done in 1977 CertainTeed knew that if a worker in the field used a gas powered disc saw to cut CertainTeed asbestos cement pipe the study indicated the exposure could be greater than OSHA standards? A. It could be, yes. Q. And yet CertainTeed did not put a caution label on its product until 1979, corre ct? A. That s correct, but we distributed the recommended work practices telling you not to use that saw with every load of pipe we shipped in 1977. Page 116 29 (Pages 113 to 116) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. DeLUCA: Object to the 1 non-responsive portion. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Sir, the interrogatories that I 2 3 4 refere nced earlier, wh ich have been marked as Exhibit 2, discuss CertainTeed s sales records of asbestos cement pipe, and I will hand you the 5 6 7 8 question and answer to interrogatory 20, which discusses that, just ask you 9 10 to take a brief look at it, and while 11 you are looking at that we will go off 12 the video record, please. VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We are 13 14 now going off the video record, the time is 12:03. THE WITNESS: Okay. VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We are 15 16 17 18 now on the record, the time is 19 12:04. 20 BY MR. DeLUCA: 21 Q. Mr. Amb ler, have you reviewed CertainTeed's answer to interrogatory number 20? Page 22 23 24 117 A. Yes. Q. So '69 to '79 it shows the number of invoices that CertainTeed possesses 9 for the sales ofasbe sto s cement pipe; A. Yes. Q. It starts out in 1969 there is a little under 15,000 invoices? A. Q. C orre ct. Which would that reflect 15,000 sales of asbestos cement pipe or 9 associated fittings, things like that; A. What is your definition of sales? Q. Well, some one buys pipe from CertainTeed, would that be a sale? A. I am asking you, you are asking me a question, and I can't answer it because I don't know your definition of sale. Q. Okay. People buying asbestos pipe from CertainTeed in exchange for money, that is my definition of sale. A. Okay. T h en what is your 9 question ; Q. C ertainTeed sold its pipe, Page 119 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A. Well, I reviewed not the whole answer, just the part that had to do with the invoices for pipe. Q. C orrect. I believe that the 1 2 3 4 interrogatory establishes that CertainTeed doesn't have records of its sales of asbestos cement pipe from '62 to '66, but there appear to be some invoices, at least from '79 to '77, and 5 6 7 8 9 those invoices are discussed in this interrogatory response, would that be 9 fa ir to say; A. I didn t quite understand that. I don't think those dates were correct 10 11 12 13 14 that you said. Q. Let me ask a better question. 15 16 Does the response discuss the number of 17 invoices that CertainTeed possesses 18 during the years 1969 to 1977? 19 A. '77? 20 Q. A. Yes, sir. It does have that, yes. 21 22 Q. Actually it goes all the way to 23 '79, what I showed you? 24 Page 118 correct, it didn't give it away o obviously, correct: A. T hat's correct. Q. Wh en CertainTeed sold pipe to a 9 customer there was an invoice, correct; A. CertainTeed sold pipe to a customer there is an invoice, not really correct, but go ahead. Q. Tell me h ow that is not really 9 correct ; A. We cut an invoice for every truck that went out of the plant, and you could have placed an order on us for five trucks, so you wouldn'i t have gotten just one invoice for that order, you would have gotten five invoices for that order. Q. Okay, fair enough. A. Every truck had to have an invoice c ut. Q. Every truck that left CertainTeed's plant carrying asbestos 9 cement pipe generated an invoice; A. T hat's correct, yes. Page 120 30 (Pages 117 to 120) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q. Would it be fair to say that 1 basically from 1969 to 1979 each and 2 every year more and more trucks were leaving CertainTeed s plants carrying O asbestos cement pipe; A. For w hat years again, sir, I am sorry 7; Q. Basically from 69 to 79. 3 4 5 6 7 8 A. Yeah, well, it stayed __ yes, it 9 increased over that time period, yes, by year. Q. For example, in 1972 there would have been over 15,000 invoices? A. Correct. Q. Would that be 1 5,000 trucks leaving CertainTeed's plants carrying O asbestos cement pipe; A. Or a distributor coming in and picking up, but it doesn't mean it is a 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 full truck load of pipe. You can have 20 t^o invoices and one can be for 20,000 21 tons of product, and one could be for 2 22 tons of product, depending on __ this 23 is the number of trucks that left, it 24 Page 121 Q. Exhibit 23, is this a depiction of one of CertainTeed's plants? A. ^Vell, it has CertainTeed products Corporation on the building so, yes, it is. I am sorry, w hat wa s the question? Q. Is that a picture of one of CertainTeed's plants? A. Q. One of Certain Teed s plants, yes. Does CertainTeed have various sales divisions from which it sold its asbestos containing pipe throughout the United States? A. Ve had districts in the field, yes (W hereupon photograph w a s marked for identification as Exhibit 24.) BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Would Exhibit 24 depict the relative amount of asbestos cement pipe that CertainTeed was selling per sales district again in 1974? A. Q. Your question, sir? Does Exhibit 24 depict the Page 123 i doesn t necessarily say it is the volume of pipe that left. I am not being too clear here. When a truck left, we didn't ship full 1 2 3 4 trucks all the time I am sorry to say, 5 so any time a truck went out it had to 6 have an invoice, whether it was a full truck or not. Q. For example, in 1976 there were 25,000 invoices? A. Yes, that's correct. Q. In 1977 there were 28,000 in vo ices7; A. Correct. Q. 1978 there were over 30,000 i n vo ices7; A. That's correct. Q. 1979 there were over 33,000 i n vo ices7; A. That's correct. (Whereupon photograph was 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 marked for identification as Exh ib it 23.) 22 23 BY MR. DeLUCA: 24 Page 122 various sales divisions of CertainTeed and indicate the amount of pipe they were selling in 1974? A. Q. What kind of pipe? Cement pipe, asbestos cement pipe. A. I don't believe so. Q. What does that depict, do you 7 know; A. I believe __ let me answer, it is not asbestos cement pipe. Q. Okay, then let's put that aside. (Whereupon photograph was marked for identification as Exhibit 25.) BY MR . DeLUCA: Q. Does Exhibit 25 show us the quantity and tons of asbestos cement gravity sewer pipe that CertainTeed was selling during the time period 1970 to 1975? A. Yes. (Whereupon photograph was marked for identification as Page 124 31 (Pages 121 to 124) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Exhibit 26.) BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Does Exhibit 26 indicate the 1 2 3 tonnage ofasbe sto s cement building se^er pipe that CertainTeed was selling during the period of 1970 to 1975? A. Between '70 and '75? Q. Yes, sir. A. Building s e^e r pipe, yes. Q. Do both Exhibit 25 and 26 sho^ 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 that the tonnage of asbestos cement sewer pipe that CertainTeed was selling began to decline in 1973, if not O perhaps a little bit earlier; A. Q. Yes. CertainTeed at that time was not 11 12 13 14 15 16 able to increase its sales of asbestos cement sewer pipe after it had peaked in about '72, '73, correct, that market O was declining : A. Well, yes, asbestos cement sewer pipe was declining industry wide. Q. Sir, adding a warning label to that pipe would not have increased Page 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 125 form of the question. THE WITNESS: When I was in sales my job was to sell as much product as I could for a profit, yes. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Profit is a key component of that, correct, the corporation O to make money; A. Correct. exists (Whereupon photograph was marked for identification as Exhibit 27.) BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Sir, could you tell me what is set forth in Exhibit 27? A. It is the sales volume for the AC division for t^o years, 1976 and 1977. Q. In 1976 the sales volume for the asbestos cement division was 55 million O dollars ; A. Yes. Q. And in 1977 it went up to 68 O million dollars, did it not; Page 127 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 o sales either, correct; MR. PARNELL: Object to the form of the question. You may 1 2 3 a n swer. THE WITNESS: I don't know how to answer that. It wouldn't have increased it nor decreased 4 5 6 7 it. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. It certainly wouldn't have sold 8 9 10 more pipe to tell people that exposure O to the pipe could kill them, would it; A. Sir, we would never put a pipe in 11 12 13 the field that would kill somebody kno w ingly. MR. DeLUCA: Object as non 14 15 16 responsive. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Sir, obviously your job and the 17 18 19 job of other people involved in the 20 sales and marketing department of 21 CertainTeed was to sell as much pipe as 22 O humanly possible, correct; 23 MR. PARNELL: Object to the 24 Page 126 A. That's correct, yes. Q. A. A 23 percent increase? In revenue, not necessarily in volume. It we nt up 23 percent in revenue, and I am saying not necessarily in volume. (Whereupon photograph was marked for identification as Exh ib it 28.) BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. What does Exhibit 28 tell us about the sales of CertainTeed's asbestos cement products in 1977? MR. PARNELL: Is your question specific about asbestos O1 1 cement pipe ; ljust didn t hear your question. MR. DeLUCA: Let me have her read it back. (Whereupon the court reporter read back from the record.) THE WITNESS: It doesn't tell me a thing, sir. (Whereupon photograph was Page 128 32 (Pages 125 to 128) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 marked for identification as 1 Exhibit 29.) 2 BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Okay. Does Exhibit 29 allow you 3 4 to tell me the profit CertainTeed 5 realized from sales ofasbes to s cement pipe in 1977? A. Yes, it states the profit it made 6 7 8 n 1977. Q. Was that profit a pre-tax profit 9 10 of 11 million dollars? A. What was the question again, 11 12 please, the first question I answered 9 yes to ? MR. PARNELL: As to AC pipe. 13 14 15 BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Sir, let me have her read it 9 back, okay; A. Sure. (Whereupon the court reporter 16 17 18 19 20 read back from the record.) 21 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I was 22 ^rong on that answer. I don t know what profit this is, it 23 24 Page 129 9 time; A. Yes, and it was a different process, but it did make asbestos cement pipe. Q. That was the extrusion process? A. Q. Yes. But primarily there were five main plants, correct9; A. Yes. Q. And each plant had a certain geographical area it would ship to, 9 correct ; A. It had a shipping area, yes. (Whereupon photograph was marked for identification as Exhibit 30.) BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Does Exhibit 30 tell us where CertainTeed's asbestos cement pipe plants were located and the shipping areas associated with each 9; A. For whatever time period this -- this is a shipping map, to answer your question. I can ttell you for what Page 131 i could be anybody s profit. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Okay. Now, CertainTeed had at least five plants that made asbestos 9 cement pipe or four; A. What time period? Q. Well, at any time during your 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 period of employment. A. At any one time the maximum we 8 9 had wa s six. Q. Fair enough. There was a plant in Ambler, correct? A. Yes. Q. There was a plant in Hillsboro, T1 e x a s 7; A. Yes. Q. St. Louis, Missouri? A. Q. Yes. Riverside, California? 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 A. Yes. Q. And Santa Clara, California? A. Yes. Q. And there was a plant in the Buffalo area for a limited period of 20 21 22 23 24 Page 130 time period because they obviously, they would change periodically, but this was for a specific time period. Q. In addition to having different areas associated with each plant that manufactured asbestos cement pipe there were various sales districts that would have responsibility for selling asbestos cement pipe in various states 9 and localities, correct; A. They would have the responsibility to sell pipe. (Whereupon photograph was marked for identification as Exhibit 31.) BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Would Exhibit 31 show us the various sales districts of CertainTeed 9 in their territories ; A. For a particular time, yes, however, the sales districts not only had responsibility for asbestos cement pipe, that has to be understood. Q. Fair enough. But with respect to Page 132 33 (Pages 129 to 132) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 asbestos cement pipe, Exhibit 31 sho^s 1 u s where the sales districts were 2 located in their territories, at least 3 at some point in time; A. Yes. Q. They may have changed over the years, but it wouldn't have changed too 7 drastically, correct; A. What? Q. A. The sales areas. Oh, yeah, they changed 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 drastically. Q. Did it? A. Q. O h, yeah. W hen did that happen? 12 13 14 15 A. Started in 1980. Q. Was it when there was less and 7 less cement pipe being purchased : A. That had some bearing on it, but 16 17 18 19 also had a major impact on it wa s the 20 way we start distributing PVC pipe. 21 Q. Are you finished with your an swer7; 22 23 A. Yes. 24 Page 133 appear on CertainTeed asbestos cement pipe beginning in 1977 read as follows: "Caution, always use recommended work practices. Do not use abrasive sa^s. When cutting, machining and tapping refer to recommended work practices guide furnished by manufacturer to your e m ployer7; " A. Yes, exceptyou said 77. The answer is yes. Q. I don't know why I keep doing that, let me re-ask the question, okay. Sir, did the label which began to appear on CertainTeed asbestos cement pipe beginning in 1979 read as follows: "Caution, always use recommended work practices. Do not use abrasive sa^s. When cutting, machining and tapping refer to recommended work practices guide furnished by manufacturer to your e m pl oyer7; " A. That's correct, yes. Q. Is that the truth, is everything 7 in that caution label truthful; Page 135 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q. This would be a good time to 1 change the tape. VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We are n o^ going off th e record. This completes tape number 2, the time is 12:20. (Whereupon a short recess was ta ken.) VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We are 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 now on the record, this begins tape number 3, the time is 12:26. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Mr. Ambler, I want to hand you Exhibit 2, the CertainTeed answers to interrogatories, and call your attention to CertainTeed s response to interrogatory 15 where CertainTeed 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 describes the labels that began to appear on asbestos cement pipe beginning in 1979. If you take a look 18 19 20 at that, please, it is on the left 21 p a rt. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Sir, did the label that began to 24 Page 134 A. Q. Yes. But, Mr. Ambler, what appeared in that caution label was not the whole truth, was it, the whole truth known to CertainTeed at that time, correct? Well, I don't know what you mean by the whole truth. They were telling you what not to use that would create a pro blem. Well, for example, Mr. Ambler, the caution in 1979 didn t say that the failure to follow the recommended work practices could result in a fatal 7 disease, did it; A. It did not say that, but it told you what n ot to do. MR. DeLUCA: Object as non responsive. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Mr. Ambler, the caution in 1979 didn't say that the failure to follow the work practices could result in 7 asbestosis, did it; A. Sir, it didn t say that. I mean, Page 136 34 (Pages 133 to 136) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 I am going to have to answer your 1 question each time the same wa y. It 2 did not say that, but it told you what not to do that would create an issue. MR. DeLUCA: Object as non 3 4 5 responsive. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Sir, the 1979 caution label 6 7 8 didn t say that the failure to follow work practices could result in lung O cancer or mesothelioma, did it; A. It did not say that, but it told 9 10 11 12 you what not to do. MR. DeLUCA: Objection. THE WITNESS: It did also refer you to the recommended work practices, which had language in it stating that, and I would have to read it exactly, but did have some language in it concerning 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 the health issues with asbe sto s . MR. DeLUCA: Object to the 21 22 non-responsive portion. BY MR. DeLUCA: 23 24 Page 137 language in it concerning that. MR. DeLUCA: Object to the non-responsive portion. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Now, sir, if you take a look below what I have cited you to, CertainTeed sets forth the warning that began to appear on its asbestos cement pipe in 1985, corre ct? A. Yes. Q. In 1985 CertainTeed began to put a label on its asbestos cement pipe that had the word asbestos and cancer O on the label, correct; A. Yes. Q. Between the time period 1979 to 1985 when this ne^ label began to appear CertainTeed never mentioned anything about asbestosis or lung cancer or mesothelioma or the need to avoid breathing dust from asbestos O cement pipe, did it; A. It never mentioned that to whom? Q. The label on the pipe, sir. Page 139 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q. Sir, the 1 979 caution label 1 didn t indicate workers should 'wear O masks or respirators, did it; A. No, it told you w hat you 2 3 4 shouldn t do. MR. DeLUCA: Object to the non-responsive portion. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Sir, that label didn't say that workers should avoid breathing dust, did it? A. Sir, it did not say that, but it 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 told you what not to do. MR. DeLUCA: Object to the non-responsive portion. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Sir, there was nothing about the 13 14 15 16 17 label from 1979 that would tell a worker that he needs to avoid breathing asbestos dust because he can get sick O and die, is there; A. Not in the label itself, but, 18 19 20 21 22 again, it does refer you to the 23 recommended work practices, which has 24 Page 138 A. Oh, on the label, no. I mean, you have this label in 79 and you have the label in 1985, they are the t^o labels, which were done voluntarily by the way. CertainTeed putthese on voluntarily, and they were the first company to do it. MR. DeLUCA: Object to the non-responsive portion. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. While every label that was on every pipe from 1979 to 1985 told the truth, those labels didn't tell the whole truth as known by CertainTeed, did they? MR. PARNELL: Object to the fo r m. THE WITNESS: Sir, I don't know how to answer that question. CertainTeed put that label on there telling the individuals not to use the abrasive disc saw and to refer to the recommended work practices. So in that context Page 140 35 (Pages 137 to 140) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 that was the truth. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. But it wasn t the whole truth, sir? MR. PARNELL: Object to the form of the question. It is 1 2 3 4 5 6 arg umentative . THE WITNESS: I don't know 7 8 h ow to an swer that question. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Did CertainTeed put everything that it knew about the hazards of asbestos on the 1979 label? A. No, but, again, they put on there 9 10 11 12 13 14 notto use the means that wo uld create the problem. Notto use the operation 15 16 that would create the problem. MR. DeLUCA: Object to the 17 18 non-responsive portion. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Sir, couldn't a worker have 19 20 21 looked at that warning and 22 misunderstood it and thought that 23 perhaps wearing safety goggles would 24 Page 141 what it meant because you were one of the individuals who participated in deciding the language that the caution o label was to have, correct; MR. PARNELL: Object to the form ofthe question. THE WITNESS: It was clear to me, but I believe it was clear to the people that were reading the label in the field. e never had anybody say I don't understand it. MR. DeLUCA: Object to the non responsive. THE WITNESS: It also refers you back to the recommended work pra ctice s. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Sir, do you really think workers in the field are going to go find the O manual for the pipe ; A. Well, they didn't have to go far because the manuals were shipped with the loads of pipe. Page 143 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 have been sufficient to protect against o the danger of a saw blade braking off: MR. PARNELL: Object to the 1 2 3 form of the question. THE WITNESS: I don't know 4 5 what an individual could have. To me it is pretty clear, and it 6 7 was very clear to every worker that I kne^ that read it. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Well, it is clear to you, sir, 8 9 10 11 because you were one of the people who participated in the decision of what the warning should say. MR. PARNELL: That was a 12 13 14 15 statement, not a question. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Correct? 16 17 18 MR. PARNELL: That is a 19 statement, not a question, I 20 object to its form. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Let's put a question mark on the 21 22 23 end of that. It is clear to you, sir, 24 Page 142 Q. In your experience, sir, do workers on job sites stand around reading manuals, particularly if they O have done that work many, manytimes; A. I don t kn o'w h o'w to ans'wer that question, sir. If you see a caution on i a piece of pipe and ithadntbeen on there before, I would certainly think you would read it, I would certainly think a foreman would read it and tell his people, I would certainly think the owner of the company would know what it is and not allow him to use the abrasive disc saw. Q. Do you think that bystanders, people who weren't working with the pipe but were working in the area where the pipe was used would have, number 1, see the caution label or, number 2, have had the opportunity or the ability O to go find the manual; MR. PARNELL: Object as compound. THE WITNESS: The caution Page 144 36 (Pages 141 to 144) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 label, sir, was meant for the people who were installing the product. So if, in fact, the 1 2 3 product was being installed properly the bystander would have 4 5 no issue. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Sir, CertainTeed made a business decision in 1979 to not put anything on the caution label that would leave workers to think that their health or their lives were in jeopardy from using O your product, correct; MR. PARNELL: Object to the 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 fo r m. THE WITNESS: No, I don't believe that is a fact at all. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Sir, CertainTeed didn't put O anything on there about cancer, did it; A. Sir, they put on this caution 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 label, which we have just been talking 22 about for the pastfive minutes, telling you what not to do and it 23 24 Page 145 that breathing asbestos dust could 9 cause serious bodily harm ; A. At the time that the caution label was designed in 79 I believe CertainTeed was doing everything they thought was needed and required to put a safe product in the field. You can always sit here today in 2007 and look back and say should you have done something d iffe re ntly. Q. You agree looking back that CertainTeed should have been more informative in the caution label that it put on its products in 1979? A. Q. I am not saying that. Okay. A. I am not saying that. Q. You would agree that all of the information that was on the 1985 caution label was available to CertainTeed in 1979, correct? A. That's correct, yes. Q. A. If not, in the 1960s? Well, depending on what period in Page 147 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 referred you to the recommended work 1 practices. Q. Do you think workers who read that caution label were able to make an 2 3 4 informed judgment as to whether or not 9 they wanted to work with the pipe ; A. I wo uld think they should, yes. Q. 1 he label in 1985 referenced cancer, why didn't CertainTeed put cancer on the label in 1979? A. I don't know the answer to that 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 question. In retrospect maybe we 12 should have. Q. In 1985 the caution label 13 14 indicated that breathing asbestos dust could cause serious bodily harm including cancer and asbe sto sis, wh y ^a sntthat language on the 1979 label? 15 16 17 18 A. I just answered that question, 19 sir. Q. So your answer would be the same? 20 21 A. Q. I don t kno w the ans we r to that. Do you think that CertainTeed 22 23 should have indicated on the 1979 label 24 Page 146 the 1 960 s, b ut it wa sntan issue as I told you -- depending on what period you are talking about in the 1960s. Let me stop there. Q. In fact, there was really no change in the state of mind of CertainTeed in terms of what it knew about the hazards of asbestos between 1979 and 1985, correct? MR. PARNELL: I object to the form ofthe question. THE WITNESS: Can I have that 9 question read back, please; (Whereupon the court reporter read back from the record.) THE WITNESS: There is no change, would you ask me that question again, please, s.ir9; BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Sure. There was no change in the state of mind of CertainTeed in terms of what they knew about the hazards of asbestos between 1979 and 1985, true? A. No, there was no change. Page 148 37 (Pages 145 to 148) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q. Sir, you would agree that a 1 company needs to make certain that the company knows all there is to know about the product they are making, 9 correct ; A. I believe a company __ yes, I believe a company should know all __ they should find out all they can about the product they are making, yes. Q. Companies like CertainTeed should, indeed, stay abreast of the scientific research that would regard the ingredients in their products, 9 correct ; A. Yes, which I believe they did. Q. And they should make certain that their customers are aware of any 9 information that would apply to them ; A. Yes, which we did. Q. And you believe that CertainTeed had a responsibility to inform its 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 customers how to install the 9 a safe fashion ; A. Yes, which we did. product in Page 149 22 23 24 A. No, I believe it was done in 1977. Q. By th attime CertainTeed had made asbestos cement pipe for 15 years with the knowledge that exposure to asbestos could cause disease9; MR. PARNELL: Object to form. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Correct? A. Exposures to certain amounts of asbestos, not the way that we were recommending the product to be installed in the field, and when that way became a common way is when we took a cti o n . Q. Do you think CertainTeed s recommendation of how the product was to be used in the field would have carried more weight with workers if they knew that the failure to follow those suggestions could result in their death? MR. PARNELL: Object to form. THE WITNESS: I don't know Page 151 Q. You believe that the company had a responsibility to make certain that the company is doing everything that it can possibly do to insure the safe use 9 of the product; A. Yes, which I believe we did. Q. If a company is doing an investigation on its product, Mr. Ambler, any investigation on the safe use of a product has to be done in an 9 unbiased way, correct; A. Yes. Q. And you would agree that CertainTeed obviously was in a much better position to know the safe uses of its product than workers, and CertainTeed had a responsibility to get 9 that inform a tio n out to the public; A. Yes, which they did. Q. Just not until 1985? MR. PARNELL: Object. It is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 argumentative, object to form. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Correct? 22 23 24 Page 150 h o^ to an swer that question. I don't even understand the que stio n . BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Let me have it read back, and maybe if you need me to rephrase it I will try. A. Okay. (Whereupon the court reporter read back from the record.) THE WITNESS: I don't know if you actually fail to follow specific instructions it would cause death. Again, I think that CertainTeed acted very responsibly in whatthey did. MR. DeLUCA: Object to the non-responsive portion. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Sir, both in 1979 and in 1985 CertainTeed's label began with the word caution, correct9; A. Yes. Q. It never began with the word Page 152 38 (Pages 149 to 152) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 9 warning, did it; A. It did not, no. Q. Sir, are you a wa rnings expe rt? A. Am I a wa rnings expe rt, no, I am 1 2 3 4 not an expert in anything, sir. Q. Mr. Ambler, you told me that you thought CertainTeed had a responsibility to meet any applicable standards. In fact, you said I think CertainTeed had a responsibility to do 5 6 7 8 9 10 better than the standards, is that your te s ti m o n y 9; A. Yes. Q. But CertainTeed didn t do that, d i d it? 11 12 13 14 15 A. It certainly did. Q. I am told that CertainTeed was cited by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration in St. Louis for having levels of asbestos in its plant 16 17 18 19 20 greater than the regulations permitted, 9 is that true ; A. Yes, I believe it was one citing, and it was a very small amount and Page 153 21 22 23 24 one in the code, do you have 9 th at! MR. MARSHALL: Not at my fingertips. MR. DeLUCA: Let me try without a tonal difference. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Sir, isn't it true that people who worked for CertainTeed have filed claims against CertainTeed for their occupationally induced asbestos related 9 diseases ; A. There have been some 'workmen s comp claims, yes. Q. In fact, the first one was in December of 1972? A. That's correct, yes. Q. There have been numerous claims brought against CertainTeed by its employees who have been diagnosed with 9 asbestosis ; A. There have been claims, yes. Q. In fact, you know John McGinley or you knew him I should say, correct? Page 155 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 correction was done right away. Q. Could it have been more than one, sir? A. Maybe it was two, but it was 1 2 3 4 either one or two, one plant was one and one plant wa s tw o . Q. Sir, what -- I am sorry, please. 5 6 7 A. Q. I am sorry, go ahead. No, I didn't mean to interrupt 8 9 yo u . A. No, that is all I have to say. Q. So workers who worked for CertainTeed have filed claims against CertainTeed for getting sick as a 10 11 12 13 14 result of occupationally induced 9 asbestos related disease, correct; MR. PARNELL: Object to the question and move to strike the 15 16 17 18 difference in tonal phrase of the word sick. MR. DeLUCA: Objection tonal 19 20 21 d iffere nce. MR. PARNELL: Absolutely. MR. DeLUCA: I missed that Page 22 23 24 154 A. Yes. Q. John McGinley worked in central engineering ?: A. Q. Amongst other places, yes. He worked on dust control issues for CertainTeed, didn't he? A. Yes. Q. And, sir, Mr. McGinley died of 9mesothelioma, didn 1the; A. Yes. Q. A. CertainTeed __ But he also worked a long time w ith Keasbey and M attiso n . MR. DeLUCA: Object as non responsive. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Mr. McGinley died in 1995, 1996, didn't he? A. I don t kno w w hen John died. It seems about that time period, yes. Q. That would have been about 34 years after he started with CertainTeed, correct? A. ^Vell, he came with CertainTeed, Page 156 39 (Pages 153 to 156) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 he worked 'with Keasbey and Mattison, he 1 leftfor a 'while and then came back. Q. So are you telling us you think 2 3 his mesothelioma 'was the fault of Keasbey and Mattison and not CertainTeed? MR. PARNELL: I object to the 4 5 6 7 form of the question. THE WITNESS: I am not saying where it stems from, sir, I am 8 9 10 just stating the facts. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. At CertainTeed s corporate headquarters, sir, there was a library, correct 7; A. Yes. Q. That library didn't come into existence until 1977? A. I don't know the answer to that 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 q uestion. Q. Sir, would you agree that CertainTeed never informed any of its 20 21 22 customers or the end users of its products about any threshold limit 23 24 Page 157 distributed on the safe uses of asbestos in the plants that may have said something concerning that. Q. Are you certain about that? A. We can get a brochure out and see. Q. Sir, I am going to hand you page 56 of the deposition you gave on November 9, 2006 in the Reinfleisch case from New York, do you recall that case7; A. Yes. Q. Sir, beginning on page 56 at line 14 you were asked the following questions: "Does CertainTeed to your knowledge ever communicate in any warning accompanying the sale of their products that workers should not bring home their clothing to be laundered unless special precautions are taken7; " Your answer, "To our own workers in the plants? Question: No, to the customers out in the field. And your answer said not that I am aware of Page 159 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 values wh ich existed for its asbe sto s exposure7; A. No, I wouldn t agree with that. Q. Sir, do you think that CertainTeed would be in a better position to answer that question than you 7; A. Sure. Q. CertainTeed s response to 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 interrogatory number 21 states, "CertainTeed has never informed its 10 11 customers of any threshold limit values, et cetera. 7 correctly ; Did I read that A. Yes, you did. Q. Sir, you are not aware of CertainTeed ever communicating the fact to workers that workers shouldn't bring 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 their asbestos laden work clothes home to be laundered unless special 7 precautions are taken, correct; A. I believe there was a -- I am not 19 20 21 22 100 percent sure of this, but I think there is a brochure that had been Page 23 24 158 because as I said our goal was to make certain that we had a product that could be installed within the n sta ndards. A. That is two questions there. Q. A. Right. I think your question asked me, your question, forget this just for one second, I think your original question had to do with our plant people, didn't it? No. Q. Oh, it didn't, then I didn't answer it correctly then, I am sorry. Sir, are you aware of CertainTeed ever communicating the fact that workers should not bring home their asbestos laden work clothes to be laundered unless special precautions 7 were taken ; A. I made an assumption and I was wr ong. I thought you we re meaning our plant people. Q. So did you tell your plant people Page 160 40 (Pages 157 to 160) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 tha t? 1 A. Like I said, there was some 2 brochures, there were pamphlets that were given to our plant people about the safe uses of asbestos in the plant, 3 4 5 and there was something in there concerning laundering of clothes, but the deposition you are talking about people in the field, totally different subject. Q. Let me re_ask the question, sir. You are not aware that CertainTeed ever 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 communicated the fa ct to end users of its products that workers who were installing those products such as asbestos cement pipe should not bring home their asbestos laden work clothes to be laundered unless special 9 precautions were taken, correct; MR. PARNELL: Objection to 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 fo r m. THE WITNESS: No, I am not 21 22 aware of that. BY MR. DeLUCA: 23 24 Page 161 9 give the pipe strength, was it; A. Well, the result would be better strength because it gave you better process techniques in the plant. Q. What do you mean it gave you 9 better process techniques in the plant; A. You were able to drain the water off better and more uniformly to give the pipe more strength. Q. You testified before that the crocidolite gave you better drainage, 9 is that what you are speaking of; A. Yes. Q. There was a lot of water in the slurry that 9 correct ; A. Yes. became the pipe eventually, Q. Crocidolite was added so that there would be better drainage and you 9 get a better quality product; A. Correct. Q. Isn't another reason that crocidolite was added to your pipe, sir, the fact that it was less costly Page 163 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q. CertainTeed never recalled any of 1 its asbestos cement pipe that it sold throughout the United States, did it? A. Ever recalled it? Q. A. Yes. For what reason? Q. For any reason. Related to 2 3 4 5 6 7 health or safety. A. Health or safety, no, not that I am aware of. Q. Now, sir, I understand that 8 9 10 11 asbestos was used in asbestos cement 9 pipe to give it strength, is that true ; A. The majority of it was to give it strength, yes. Q. The majority of it that was to 12 13 14 15 16 give it strength would have been the 9 chrysotile asbestos, correct; A. That's correct, yes. Q. The other asbestos in the product 17 18 19 20 was a type of asbestos called 9 crocidolite, correct; A. Yes. Q. That wasn't put in the product to Page 21 22 23 24 162 for CertainTeed to make that pipe if it put crocidolite in there than if it was 9 just chrysotile ; A. Less costly, I don't know whether that is the proper way of saying. We couldn t make a real quality product, and if we had to I guess not use it -- we tried to make some products without crocidolite, and we just couldn t make a quality product, consistently quality p rodu ct. Q. So you don't think less costly would be a fair way of describing why 9 crocidolite was used in the product; A. It did give you a more competitive product to compete against other piping products in the field. Q. Competitive from a price 9 perspective, correct; A. The selling price of the product, yes. Q. It was cheaper for CertainTeed to make asbestos cement pipe that used crocidolite than it could have been for Page 164 41 (Pages 161 to 164) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 CertainTeed to make asbestos cement 1 pipe that only had chrysotile in it, 9 correct ; A. ^Ve ll, cheaper to the point that i if we didn t use crocidolite we i w ouldn t be able to put a qual ity product in the field. Q. But you don t think less costly 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 is a fair way of describing it, is that fair? A. I think that we put the 9 10 11 crocidolite in there to have a consistently quality product to ship to the field . Q. Sir, let me sho^ you your 12 13 14 15 testimony from March 18, 2003, that was taken in connection with the Short case, also in Brezar County, Texas, and 16 17 18 I will call your attention to page 87 19 beginning at line 5 when you were asked the following questions: "Did using crocidolite also save some money in the 20 21 22 manufacturing process9; " Vlour answer, "What do you mean by save money? Page 23 24 165 Q. Sir, I want to hand you some other slides that I got from CertainTeed and ask if you have seen them before, and if you can help me to understand whatthey depict. (Whereupon photograph was marked for identification as Exhibit 32.) BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. What is Exhibit 32, what does 9 th at say; A. CertainTeed Piping Materials, I ncorporated . (^W hereupon photograph w a s marked for identification as Exh ib it 33.) BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. What does Exhibit 33 say? A. Sales. (^W hereupon photograph w a s marked for identification as Exhibit 34.) BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. And what does Exhibit 34 say? Page 167 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Qu estion: Reduce produ ctio n costs. Answer: It obviously it was -- it 1 2 would produce a product that was less costly to make than if you put all chrysotile in there and you wouldn'i t nearly the quality product that you would have had with the little bit of crocidolite that we used." Did I read 9 that correctly; A. I testified to that three minutes 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ago. Q. One of the reasons that 11 12 crocidolite was put into the product, sir, it was added so the product was 9 less costly to make, correct; A. It would give you a more 13 14 15 16 consistently quality product and if you i didn t use the crocidolite, yes, if you i didn t use the crocidolite you would have to use more chrysotile, and it would be more costly, but it wouldn't 17 18 19 20 21 have a good consistent quality, either, and that is exactly what I testified to 22 23 before. 24 Page 166 A. High p r ofit. (^W hereupon photograph w a s marked for identification as Exh ib it 35.) BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. What does Exhibit 35 say, sir? A. Q. Ma ximum profits. Maximum profits? A. Yes. (Whereupon photograph was marked for identification as Exh ib it 36.) BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. What does Exhibit 36 say, sir? A. Create a plan. (Whereupon photograph was marked for identification as Exhibit 37.) BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. What does Exhibit 37 say, sir? A. ^We are committed. (Whereupon photograph was marked for identification as Exh ib it 38.) Page 168 42 (Pages 165 to 168) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 BY MR. DeLUCA: 1 Q. Tell the jury, sir, what Exhibit 38 says? 2 3 A. Q. Produce as much as you can sell. Isn t it true, sir, that 4 5 CertainTeed only quit making asbestos cement pipe because the business became unprofitable for CertainTeed? 6 7 8 A. ^Ve stopped, yes, 'we stopped 9 making asbestos cement pipe because it wasn t a profitable product, we felt that CertainTeed asbestos cement pipe 10 11 12 could be sold and used very, without 13 any issues in the field as far as health issues. MR. DeLUCA: Object to the 14 15 16 non-respon sive portion . BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Sir, you testified that you do 17 18 19 not agree with the proposition that CertainTeed had an obligation to inform 20 21 workers about the health risks 1O .associated with asbestos, haven t you A. Boy, I don t remember saying Page 22 23 24 169 believe CertainTeed told the truth as it was needed to make certain that a quality product -- or a product was being used safely in the field. BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. I understand, sir, that you personally never physically cut or sawed a piece of CertainTeed asbestos O cement pipe, is that true : A. That's correct, yes. Q. You've never been present when a person was using a gas powered saw to cut CertainTeed asbestos cement pipe O either, correct; A. That s correct. Q. When you were walking around the plant you never wore a respirator, did you 7; ^WA. Never. hat wa s your question before that, I may have answered that improperly 9; Q. You've never been present when a person was using a gas powered saw to Page 171 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 that. Q. ^Vell, was it your testimony O to day: A. What is the question, ask me the O question ; Q. Do you think CertainTeed had an 1 2 3 4 5 6 obligation to inform workers about the O health risks associated with asbestos; A. Certainly I do, yes. 7 8 9 Q. Given the fact that asbestos was in CertainTeed's products? A. As I testified to earlier today, 10 11 12 Mr. DeLuca, I feel that any company has a responsibility to make certain that the people who are either making or using their product know the proper and 13 14 15 16 safe way to do both. Q. Vould you agree, sir, it is not enough to just tell the truth about the 17 18 19 hazards of a product, it is important O to tell the whole truth ; MR. PARNELL: Object to form, 20 21 22 arg umentative . THE WITNESS: Yes. And I 23 24 Page 170 cut CertainTeed asbestos cement pipe? A. I have been in the finishing department and walked through the finishing department, but I've never been in the field to see it done. Q. Sir, let me show you your testimony on page 100 line 17 through 20. MR. PARNELL: What year was this? BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Of the deposition you gave in November of 2006. Question: Have you ever been present when a person was using a gas powered saw to cut asbestos cement pipe by CertainTeed? Answer: No, no. Did I read that correctly? A. Yes, but, I mean, I have not seen a gas powered sa^ used in the field. I am saying that I have __ I am trying to answer your question, sir, as factually and as honestly as I can. And I am sure you can find areas like this that we found all day, but Page 172 43 (Pages 169 to 172) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 let me just say I have walked through 1 the finishing department of a plant, and there has been times when a gas, I don't know, it wasn't gas operated in 2 3 4 the finishing department, it was electric operated, and it was a cut off saw to cut pipe in the finishing 5 6 7 department, but I have not seen anybody use a gas powered saw. Q. Sir, you were one of the persons from CertainTeed that was involved in 8 9 10 11 the decision making of what should be included on the caution labels, 9 oorreot ; A. I attended the meetings, yes. Q. You were involved in the 12 13 14 15 16 decisions about whether to warn or whether not to warn regarding the 9 hazards of asbestos, correct; A. I was a part of those 17 18 19 20 discussions, yes. Q. You understand that this is a 21 22 failure to warn case that we 9 today to talk about; are here Page 173 23 24 (Whereupon photograph was marked for identification as Exhibit 40.) BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. CertainTeed was obviously aware as evidenced by Exhibit 40 that its pipe carried water that we use in our 9 homes, correct; A. Yes. (Whereupon photograph was marked for identification as Exhibit 41 .) BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. As evidenced by Exhibit 41, water 9 that we drink; A. Yes. (Whereupon photograph was marked for identification as Exhibit 42.) BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. And as evidenced by Exhibit 42, 9 water that our children drink, correct; A. The whole family drinks the water, yes. Page 175 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A. I don't understand what the 1 actual legal terms are. (Whereupon photograph was 2 3 marked for identification as Exhibit 39.) BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Sir, I want to hand you Exhibit 4 5 6 7 39, and ask you if it is true that 8 there is over 2 million miles of 9 asbestos cement pipe in use in the 9 world : A. Q. There probably are. And that pipe carries the water 9 that we drink, correct; A. Not all of it, no. Q. But it carries some of the water 9 we drink ; A. Some of the water. I believe 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 this was an industry number that was 19 put out so it would also carry sewage, 20 it would carry electrical conduit, it 21 would be vent pipe, it would be exhaust 22 pipe, it would be all kinds of 23 different asbestos cement pipe. 24 Page 174 (Whereupon photograph was marked for identification as Exhibit 43.) BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. Let me hand you Exhibit 43, and ask if you can tell me what we are 9 looking at: A. That is somebody's rendition of the Riverside plant, and it may have been at the time when we were adding the sales district to the plant up front in the office there. Q. There is a contractor on the bottom, the Austin Company? A. Q. Yeah, I don t kno^. Do you know anything about the Austin Company? A. No. (Whereupon photograph was marked for identification as Exhibit 44.) BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. This will be the last question I ask you, at least for right now. What Page 176 44 (Pages 173 to 176) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 1 A. I have no idea. I have no idea 2 what it means. Q. I guess finally -- 3 4 MR. PARNELL: He didn't tell you the whole truth just then. MR. DeLUCA: I object to the side bar. (Whereupon photographs marked 5 6 7 8 9 for identification as Exhibit 45 and 46.) BY MR. DeLUCA: Q. I guess while I am here and since this is the only opportunity I have to ta l k to you, I have to ask you why Mr. CertainTeed pipe man in Exhibit 45 has six fingers on his right hand, but on Exhibit 46 he has only five, do you knowO; A. No. The artist must have made a 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 mistake, I don t kno^. 22 Q. I will pass the witness. 23 MR. PARNELL: Let's take a five minute break. 24 Page 177 CERTIFICATION I, Linda A. Riooiardi, hereby certify that the foregoing is a true and accurate transcript of the deposition of LLOYD AMBLER, ^ho ^as first sworn by me at the time, place and on the date herein before set forth . I further certify that I am neither attorney nor counsel for, not related to or employed by any of the parties to the action in which this deposition ^as taken; further, that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed in this case, nor am I financially interested in this action. Linda A. Ricciardi Court Reporter and Notary Public Page 179 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We are 1 now going off the record, the time is 1 :05. (Whereupon a short recess was ta ken.) VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We are 2 3 4 5 6 now on the record, the time is 1:25. MR. PARNELL: CertainTeed has no questions. MS. ROSS: The witness will 7 8 9 10 11 read and sign the transcript. VIDEO TECHNICIAN: This 12 13 completes the videotape deposition. We are no^ going off 14 15 the record, the time is 1:25. (Witness excused.) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Page 178 CERTIFICATE I, the undersigned, LLOYD AMBLER, do hereby certify that I have read the fore going deposition, and that to the best of my knowledge, recollection and belief, said deposition is true and correct with the exception of the following corrections listed below. PAGE LINE REASON SIGNATURE DATE Page 180 45 (Pages 177 to 180) Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER Page 1 A Aaron (4) 2:2,2 8:22 9:17 ability (3) 74:13 116:5 144:20 able (9) 32:8 45:24 53:6 59:11 82:5 125:17 146:4 163:7 165:6 abrasive (25) 103:19,21 104:3 104:6,9 107:15 108:21 109:9,12,16 110:4,10 111:3 112:19 113:1,2,10 115:4,10 115:22 116:7 135:4,17 140:22 144:14 abreast (1) 149:11 absolutely (2) 102:22 154:23 AC (2) 127:17 129:15 Academy (1) 76:18 accept (1) 87:13 accompanying (1) 159:17 accurate (10) 46:20 51:16 52:8,18 53:1,14 54:6,21 55:4 179:5 accurately (2) 56:15 57:11 ACGIH (4) 70:2,4 86:19 87:1 acoustical (1) 36:9 acquired (2) 30:24 33:11 acquisition (3) 31:2,9 32:22 acted (1) 152:15 action (5) 1:2,5 151:15 179:13,18 active (1) 82:5 actual (1) 174:2 add (1) 114:19 added (4) 49:7 163:18,23 166:14 adding (2) 125:23 176:10 addition (2) 45:8 132:4 addressed (1) 98:18 administered (1) 10:20 Administration (1) 153:19 adopt (3) 72:3 84:7,14 advise (3) 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103:9 118:4 124:7,10 143:8 145:17 147:4 149:6,7,15,20 150:1,6 151:1 153:23 158:22 171:1 174:18 bell (2) 30:23 54:13 belled (1) 54:12 belonged (1) 99:4 best (8) 59:10 65:11 66:16 74:13 77:20 87:21 116:5 180:4 better (13) 56:8 86:2 118:16 150:15 153:11 158:5 163:2 163:3,6,8,11,19,20 Bexar (1) 39:7 big (1) 51:5 bigger (1) 56:5 bit (5) 29:11 35:2 49:6 125:14 166:7 black (1) 42:11 blade (7) 107:15 108:21 109:1 109:13,17 110:4 142:2 blades (1) 110:10 blind (1) 35:18 blurred (1) 56:7 board (1) 32:18 Bob (1) 99:24 bodies (1) 82:1 bodily (2) 146:16 147:2 body (2) 82:3,4 bottom (4) 25:10,12 81:14 176:14 bought (2) 29:12 95:16 Boy (1) 169:24 braking (1) 142:2 break (1) 177:24 breathing (5) 138:10,19 139:21 146:15 147:1 Brezar (1) 165:18 brief (1) 117:11 bring (4) 158:18 159:18 160:17 161:16 brochure (2) 158:24 159:5 brochures (1) 161:3 brought (1) 155:19 Brown (2) 26:16,17 Buba (1) 1:19 Buffalo (1) 130:24 building (5) 2:12 27:16 123:4 125:4,9 Bureau (2) 70:3 91:23 business (3) 43:19 145:8 169:7 buying (1) 119:19 buys (1) 119:13 bystander (1) 145:5 bystanders (1) 144:15 B-E-X-A-R (1) 39:8 C C (3) 10:18 180:1,1 Caesuras (1) 63:24 California (2) 130:19,21 call (5) 20:19 24:20 59:4 134:15 165:19 called (5) 28:6,12 69:11 79:5 162:21 calling (2) 22:8 23:5 calls (3) 24:6 31:24 75:8 cancer (16) 61:3 62:17 64:16 65:4,17 66:1 68:19 69:1 110:16 137:11 139:13,20 145:20 146:9,10,17 canisters (1) 96:17 cap (1) 36:1 care (1) 25:24 carried (2) 151:19 175:7 carries (2) 174:13,16 carry (3) 94:20 174:20,21 Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER Page 2 carrying (3) 120:22 121:4,16 cars (2) 36:7,8 case (l7) 8:11,17 21:21 23:11 23:16,17 24:11 28:24 39:6 63:24 102:9 106:9 159:10 159:11 165:18 173:23 179:17 cases (3) 9:19 10:14 21:2 CATHY (1) 2:7 cause (13) 59:14 60:9,14 69:11 71:3 103:23 104:11 110:15,20 146:16 147:2 151:6 152:14 caused (1) 86:10 caution (31) 112:21 113:11 113:20,24 114:4,8,22 115:6 115:20 116:18 135:3,16,24 136:3,11,20 137:8 138:1 143:3 144:6,19,24 145:10 145:21 146:4,14 147:3,13 147:20 152:22 173:13 cement (134) 12:17 13:18 15:5,23 16:8,15,18 17:2,12 18:17 19:5,8 20:24 21:15 21:17 23:1 25:20 28:7,9 31:1,11 32:23 34:15,19 35:18,19,19,20 36:1,2,3,4 41:17,19 42:14 43:9,11,12 43:20,22 44:2,13,18 45:4 46:7 48:15,24 50:7 51:4,18 53:2,20 54:8,11,15,22 55:5 55:18 56:1,16 57:4,19,23 65:15 66:18 74:18 90:14 98:14 101:20 103:20 105:14,21 106:15 107:16 107:19 108:22 110:5,24 112:20 113:10,21 114:5,8 115:5 116:13 117:8 118:7 119:4,10 120:23 121:5,17 123:20 124:5,5,11,18 125:4 125:11,18,21 127:20 128:13,16 129:6 130:5 131:4,19 132:6,9,22 133:1 133:18 134:19 135:1,14 139:8,12,22 151:4 161:16 162:2,12 164:23 165:1 169:7,10,12 171:10,14 172:1,16 174:10,24 Center (1) 3:20 central (1) 156:2 certain (21) 54:24 56:18 74:9 89:20 91:18 93:21 100:15 101:4 102:1,3 103:4 115:23 131:10 149:2,16 150:2 151:10 159:4 160:2 170:14 171:3 certainly (13) 12:9 27:19 42:7 53:17 57:18 60:4 106:12 126:10 144:8,9,11 153:16 170:9 CertainTeed (253) 2:16,20 12:13,24 13:4,14,20 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161:12 162:1 164:1,22 165:1 167:3 167:12 169:6,8,12,21 170:6 171:1,9,14 172:1,16 173:11 175:5 177:16 178:9 CertainTeed's (33) 26:24 28:3 37:1 40:15 41:18 43:22 45:7 56:19,20 57:17 85:18,22 88:13 91:6 94:13 97:6 108:17 117:7,23 120:22 121:4,16 123:2,7,8 128:12 131:19 134:16 151:16 152:21 157:13 158:9 170:11 CERTIFICATION (1) 179:1 Certified (2) 1:22 7:11 certify (5) 12:7 72:21 179:4 179:10 180:3 cetera (1) 158:13 chance (2) 80:6 99:17 change (7) 73:3 132:2 134:2 148:6,17,20,24 changed (3) 133:6,7,11 characteristics (1) 48:14 charge (1) 99:24 Charleston (2) 2:14 3:16 chart (6) 10:9 47:6 48:13 96:23 97:12,13 charts (1) 97:9 cheaper (2) 164:22 165:4 check (2) 24:15,15 children (1) 175:22 chloride (1) 16:2 choose (1) 68:15 chrysotile (5) 162:18 164:3 165:2 166:5,20 cigar (1) 67:12 cigarette (2) 66:24 68:1 Circuit (2) 1:1 8:16 cited (2) 139:6 153:18 citing (1) 153:23 City (1) 76:10 civil (5) 1:2,5 14:4,10 62:3 claims (5) 154:13 155:10,14 155:18,22 Clara (1) 130:21 class (3) 48:19,23 50:7 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171:8,14 172:1,15 173:6,7 cutting (4) 70:20 107:15 135:5,18 ______________ D___________ D (2) 3:19 5:1 Dallas (1) 102:11 damaged (1) 45:24 danger (1) 142:2 dark (1) 42:18 date (3) 1:21 179:8 180:23 Henjum Goucher Litigation Services 1-888-656-DEPO LLOYD AMBLER Page 3 dated (4) 6:2 52:24 77:23 78:5 dates (1) 118:14 day (l) 172:24 death (2) 151:22 152:14 Dece mber (1) 155:16 deciding (1) 143:3 decision (3) 142:13 145:9 173:12 decisions (1) 173:17 decline (1) 125:13 declining (2) 125:20,22 decreased (1) 126:7 defective (1) 90:11 Defendant (5) 2:15,20 3:1,7 3:12 Defendants (2) 1:8,13 define (1) 68:15 definition (7) 13:2 19:20,22 61:9 119:12,17,21 degree (1) 14:4 degrees (1) 14:19 DeLUCA (220) 2:2,2 5:5 8:23 9:14,17 10:1 11:14,19 12:1 12:6,10,23 13:8 14:2 19:16 20:5,9,12,15,18 21:8,13,19 22:21 23:15 24:17 25:8 27:18 30:9 31:13 32:7 34:8 34:18 36:15 37:13 38:7,13 38:21 39:3,13 40:21,23 43:7 44:8,11 47:10,21 48:5 51:14 52:2,6,16 53:12 54:5 54:19 56:13 57:1,9,20 61:12,19,24 62:7,11 63:3,7 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50:8,16 51:5 123:17,19,24 25 (4) 6:11 124:15,17 125:10 25.000 (1) 122:10 2500 (1) 2:8 25301 (2) 2:14 3:16 25701 (1) 2:23 26 (4) 6:12 125:1,3,10 27 (3) 6:13 127:13,16 28 (3) 6:14 128:9,11 28.000 (1) 122:12 281-378-5070 (1) 2:4 29 (3) 6:15 129:2,4 3 3 (10) 5:12 47:15,20,24 77:24 78:5 81:14 107:9 108:17 134:11 3.6 (1) 50:23 30 (7) 3:4 6:16 26:11 32:10 49:20 131:16,18 30(b)(6) (1) 31:23 30.000 (1) 122:15 300 (2) 2:23 4:1 304- 522-6910 (1) 2:24 305- 345-4222 (1) 3:16 31 (4) 6:17 132:15,17 133:1 32 (3) 6:18 167:8,10 33 (3) 6:19 167:16,18 33.000 (1) 122:18 34 (4) 6:20 156:21 167:22,24 35 (3) 6:21 168:4,6 36 (3) 6:22 168:12,14 37 (3) 6:23 168:18,20 38 (3) 6:24 168:24 169:3 39 (5) 5:11 7:2 107:12 174:5,8 ______________ 4________ 4 (4) 5:5,13 51:13,15 4.8 (2) 50:17,20 40 (4) 7:3 26:11 175:3,6 404-614-7400 (1) 2:14 41 (3) 7:4 175:12,14 412-281-7229 (1) 2:9 412-341-9300 (1) 4:2 412-366-3333 (1) 3:11 412-553-6336 (1) 3:22 42 (3) 7:5 175:19,21 43 (3) 7:6 176:3,5 44 (3) 7:7 176:21 177:1 444 (1) 3:21 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