Document 2J7ydJq0QDxgp081XryrjMqng

Superior Court of the State of California For the County of Los Angeles TRANSWESTERN PIPELINE ) COMPANY, ) Plaintiff, ) ) ) vs. ) Case No. BC 026959 ) MONSANTO COMPANY and ) DOES 1 through 200, inclusive, ) Defendant ) ) October 8,1992 Deposition of PAUL BLOCHER HODGES, taken on behalf of Plaintiff. GORE REPORTING COMPANY Boatmen's Tower, Suite 1175 -100 North Broadway St Louis, Missouri 63102 (314) 241-6750 HARTOLDMON0007631 1 Superior Court of the State of California 2 For the County of Los Angeles 3 4 TRANS WESTERN PIPELINE ) 5 COMPANY, ) 6) 7) 8 v. ) No. BC 026959 9 ) 10 MONSANTO COMPANY and ) 11 DOES 1 through 200, ) 1 2 inclusive, ) 13 Defendants. ) 14 15 16 17 1 8 Deposition of PAUL BLOCHER HODGES 1 9 taken on behalf of Plaintiff, a t the offices 2 0 of Bryan Cave, 500 North Broadway in the City 2 1 of St. Louis , State of Missouri, c omme ncing 2 2 at 9:00 a.m. on the 8th day of October, 1992, 2 3 before J. Bryan Jordan, certified shorthand 24 reporter and notary public. 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 HARTOLDMONOOQ7632 1 APPEARANCES : 2 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFF : 4 Ms. Janet M. Grady 5 Shearman & Sterling 6 21st Floor 7 725 South Figueroa Street 8 Los Angeles, California 90017 9 (213) 239-0300 10 11 FOR THE DEFENDANTS: 1 2 Mr. Donald F. Zimmer, Jr. 1 3 Bronson, Bronson & McKinnon 1 4 505 Montgomery Street 15 San Francisco , California 94111-2514 1 6 (415) 986-4200 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 3 HARTOLDMONOOQ7633 1 INDEX 2 PAGE 3 EXAMINATION BY MS. GRADY: 7 4 5 6 EXHIBITS 7 8 Plaintiff's Exhibit 869 ... 9 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 871 ... 10 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 876 ... 11 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 881 ... ........................ 37 12 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 9 3 7 ..., 13 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 883 ... ........................ 40 14 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 8 8 4 . . . ........................ 41 15 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 8 8 5 . . . ......................... 43 16 Plaintiff ' s Ex hibit 555 . . . ......................... 45 17 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 8 9 0 . . . ......................... 50 18 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 9 0 9 . . . ..................... 5 3 19 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 912 . . . ......................... 58 20 Plaintiff s Exhibit 9 2 5 . . . ......................... 62 21 22 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 4 HARTOLDMONOOQ7634 1 Whereupon. 2 PAUL BLOCHER HODGES, 3 of sound mind, having been first dulysworn 4 to tell the truth,the whole truth, and 5 nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, 6 testified upon his oath a s follows, to-wit: 7 EXAMINATION 8 BY MS. GRADY: 9 Q. Mr. Hodges,could you state an 1 0 spell your full name for the record? 1 1 A. Okay, it's Paul B1o c h e r, 1 2 B-1-o-c-h-e-r, Hodges, H-o-d-g-e-s. 1 3 Q. And could you also state your 1 4 businessor home address? 1 5 A. I'm retired. 16 Q. Could you state your home address, 1 7 please, for the record? 1 8 A. Oh. 6 3 3 Greenwood Place , 1 9 Collinsville , Illinois, 6 2 2 3 4 . 2 0 Q. My name is Janet Grady, Mr. 2 1 Hodges, and I'm from the law firm of She arman 2 2 & Sterling, and we represent Transwestern 2 3 Pipeline Company in this litigation against 2 4 Monsanto which involves the -- a pr oduc t 25 calledTurbino 1 that was manufactured by GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 5 HARTOLDMONOOQ7635 1 Monsanto . I'm sure that you've had time to 2 spend some time with Mr. Zimmer, but I'd like 3 to go over the ground rules of the deposition 4 so that you and I understand, are working off 5 of the same page in that regard. 6 You unders tand that you are und er 7 oath today; correct? 8 A. Mm-hmm. (Nods head in affirmative 9 manner). 10 Q. And you understand that even 11 though you are providing testimony in a n 1 2 informal setting in a conference room, 13 because you are under oath, it's just a s if 1 4 you were testifying in a court of law? You 1 5 understand that? 16 A. * Yes. 17 Q. It's important , because all of 1 8 your testimony, and my questions, and Mr. 1 9 Zimmer's objections will be taken down by our 2 0 reporter, that you answer audibly all 2 1 questions with either a "Yes," or a "No," or 22 some explanation, rather than using "Uh-huhs " 2 3 or "Huh-uhs," which are hard for our reporter 2 4 to take down. Do you understand that? 25 A . Okay. - GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 6 HARTOLDMONOOQ7636 1 Q It's also important that we get 2 your best testimony today, so if you don't 3 understand a ques tion or think that you might 4 not unders t and one of my questions, will you 5 please bring that to my attention? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. You will have a chance to review 8 your testimony probably about 3 0 days or so 9 after the deposition. It will be typed up 1 0 into a booklet, and you can review it and 1 1 make any corrections that you think are 1 2 necessary to make it accurate, but if you do 1 3 make any corrections, we, we being 1 4 Transwestern Pipeline Company , will have the 1 5 opportunity to comment on those changes a t 1 6 trial. Do you understand that? 1 7 A. Yes. 1 8 Q. Is there any reason, Mr. Hodges, 1 9 why you can't give your best testimony here 2 0 today? , 2 1 A No . 22 Q Are you by counsel 2 3 today ? 2 4 A Yes; Mr. Zimmer. 2 5 Q And you met with counsel GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 7 HARTOLDMONOOQ7637 1 yesterday? Is that right? 2 A . Yes. 3 Q Were you shown documents by Mr. 4 Zimmer? 5 A . Several , mm-hmm. 6 Q Approximately how many documents? 7 A . Several. I don't know. 8 Q Can you give me your best 9 estimate? 1 0 A . I don't know; five, ten, maybe . 11 Q Did any of the documents that you 1 2 were shown refresh your recollection 1 3 concerning anything that happened while you 1 4 were employed by Monsanto? 1 5 A . Yes. 1 6 Q Can you describe for me the 17 documents that refreshed your recollection, 1 8 please? 1 9 A. I don't know, there were something 2 0 about a task force, which I had completely 2 1 forgotten. I think that was the main thing. 22 Q A PCB task force? 2 3 A . Yes. 2 4 Q Anything else? 2 5 A . No, not particularly. My memory GORE REPORTING COMPANY - * ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 8 HARTOLDMONOOQ7638 1 on this, of course , was very, very vague, 2 because this was twenty, what, twenty 3 some-odd years ago or more and I've done a 4 lot of things since then, been retired for a 5 good many years, so I certainly haven't been 6 giving any thoughts to PCBs. I do very well 7 to remember anything two weeks ago, but 8 anyway, the -- I remembered, recall a n 9 incident in California, where they found PCBs 1 0 in birds and fish, and that b r ought back 11 memorie s because I remembered that from 1 2 before . I think that's about the main 1 3 things. 1 4 Q. Okay. Mr. Hodges, could you 1 5 s umm a riz e for me your educational background 1 6 after high school? 1 7 A. Mm-hmm. Yes, I graduated from the 1 8 University of Kansas in chemical engineering 1 9 in 1939 and received a Master's in sanitary 2 0 and environmental engineering from Washington 2 1 University in, I believe it was '72. 2 2 Q. When did you first join Monsanto? 2 3 A. October 1940. 2 4 Q. Did you have any jobs after 25 graduating from the University of Kansas GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OURI 9 HARTOLDMONOOQ7639 1 prior to joining Mons an to ? 2 A. Yes. I worked for the Colorado 3 Fuel and Iron Corporation for close to a year 4 in Pueblo . 5 Q . Was your job with Monsanto your 6 second job after you gr adua t ed from college? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q And did you work for Monsanto 9 un ti1 you retired? 1 0 A . That's right. 11 Q When did you retire? 1 2 A. 197 9 . 1 3 Q. I'd like to briefly go through 1 4 your long and, I'm sure, varied career a t 1 5 Mons an to just by groups of functions. Can we 1 6 start in 1940? What job did you have when 1 7 you joined Monsanto? 1 8 A. I was working in the laboratory of 1 9 the Krummrich Plant. This was for about six 2 0 months. Then I was transferred to the 2 1 Sulphuric Acid Catalyst Depar tment and the 2 2 Chemically Pure Acids Department a s Technical 2 3 Assistant and, later, Assistant Supervisor; 2 4 was there till, I would guess , 1 9 4 6. I had 2 5 about a thr ee-mon th stint a s Assistant Night GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 HARTOLDMON0007640 1 Superintendent of the plant, and then became 2 Shift Supervisor for a group of the 3 departments. This went on for several years, 4 I think, till probably, I'm guessing , 1 94 9 . 5 I'm not sure of those dates. 6 Then I became supervisor of the 7 Aroclors Department and what we call our 8 Little Phosphorus Department that made 9 chlorinated phosphorus materials, and that 1 0 went on until about 1 952, I believe , when I 1 1 became supervisor of our Hydrogenations 1 2 Department in benzyl chloride . 1 3 In either late ' 5 5 or early '56, I 1 4 became specialist in pollution control. My 1 5 job there was to set up a program for the 1 6 plant . 17 And this went on till, I believe 1 8 1966, when I to the Monsanto's 1 9 general offices as Manager of Environmental 2 0 Control for the Organic Division, and I 2 1 stayed in that spot until 1975, when I 2 2 transferred to Antwerp, Belgium, to oversee 2 3 construction of a large waste treatment 24 plant, there, and this lasted until I 2 5 retired, essentially. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 11 HARTOLDMONOOQ7641 1 Q. All of the time that you worked 2 for Monsanto between 1940 and when you went 3 to the general offices in 1966, was that the 4 Krummr i ch Plant? Is that right? 5 A . That's right, yes 6 Q When you were shift - - excuse me, 7 when you were supervisor o f the Aroclors 8 Department , how many people work e d for you? 9 A . I don't know. I don ' t know, 1 0 perhaps a dozen. 11 Q . And what was the work o f the 12 Aroclors Department? 1 3 A . Produce polychlor i n a t e d biphenyls 1 4 Q Was the Krummrich Plant the only 1 5 place a t that time that PCBs were being 1 6 produced by Monsanto? 17 A . No . 1 8 MR. ZIMMER: Which time are we 1 9 talking about, just so I'm clear? 20 MS. GRADY: Thetime during when 2 1 Mr. Hodges was the supervisor of that 2 2 department between 1949 and 1952. 2 3 MR. ZI MM E R: Okay. 2 4 A . No. 2 5 BY MS. GRADY: GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS ,MIS S OURI 12 HARTOLDMONOOQ7642 1 Q . What other, where else were PCBs 2 being produced? 3 A . Annis ton, Alabama. 4 Q . Did the -- 5 A . A t some time, and I don't know 6 whe ther it was during that period or not, 7 Newport, Wales . 8 Q Were -- 9 A . I'm not sure of that time a t all. 1 0 Q Okay. Were any products that 11 contained Aroclors blended at the Krummrich 1 2 Plant? 1 3 A . I don't know. 1 4 Q. Was the Aroclors Department, a t 1 5 the time you were supervisor of that 1 6 department, involved in blending Aroclors a s 1 7 the constituent ingredient -- 1 8 A . No . 1 9 Q -- of any product? 2 0 Mr . Hodges, if you can remember to 2 1 try to wait until I finish the question 2 2 before you answer, and I'll try to do the 2 3 same with, you, it'll make it easier for our 24 25 A. Mm-hmm. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 HARTOLDMONOOQ7643 1 Q. Mr. Hodges, have you ever toured 2 the Queeny Plant? 3 A. No formal tour. 4 Q. Have you been -- you'v e been in 5 the Queeny Plant before , haven' t you? 6 A. I've been there. 7 Q. Have you ever seen the label -- a 8 1abe1ing operation a t the Queeny Plant? 9 A . No . 1 0 Q. When you were supervisor of the 11 Aroclors Department a t the Kr ummric h Plant, 1 2 were the Aroclors drummed where they were 1 3 produced? 1 4 A. Yes. 1 5 Q. Were labels put on the drums ? 1 6 A. I don't remember that. 17 Q. Do you recall if the drums were 1 8 stenciled with paint? ~ 1 9 A. Yes, they had to be marked with 2 0 A r o c1o r, whatever it was. 2 1 Q. And were they inventoried a t the 2 2 plant, the drums of Aroclors? 2 3 A. I guess I don ' t understand your 24 question. 2 5 Q. Once they came off the line and GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 HARTOLDMONOOQ7644 1 the drums were filled with Aroclors, were 2 they kept a t the plant until they were 3 shipped out? 4 A. I don't remember, but I don't 5 think so. 6 Q Do you recall if they were shipped 7 to a warehouse? 8 MR. ZIMMER: I'll object that it 9 lacks foundation . 10 A. I don't -- I don't really 1 1 r ememb er, but logic would say yes, they went 12 to a warehouse. 1 3 MR. ZIMMER: Okay, be careful, Mr . 1 4 Hodges , to tell her only what you remember 1 5 and not what logic would dictate. She's here 1 6 to test your memory and recollection, not 1 7 what you would assume or put together for her 1 8 logically. 1 9 THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm. 2 0 BY MS. GRADY: 2 1 Q . In your employment with Monsanto, 2 2 did you ever see the process of blending 2 3 Aroclors with other subs t anc e s to create 24 products? 2 5 A . No . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 HARTOLDMONOOQ7645 1 Q. Have you ever heard of a product 2 called Turbinol? 3 A . No . 4 Q. Have you ever heard of a produc t 5 called MCS 153? 6 A . No . 7 Q. Have you heard of the P y d r a u1 line 8 of products? 9 A. Only by name. 1 0 Q. Do you know where the Pydrauls 11 were blended? 1 2 A . No . 1 3 Q . How much time did you spend on PCB 1 4 in 1966 when you assumed your position 1 5 general offices? 1 6 A. I don't remember. 17 Q. Do you recall how much time you 1 8 spent on PCB issues in 1967? 1 9 A . No . 2 0 Q. There was a time when your job a s 2 1 environmental -- excuse me, Manager of 2 2 Environmental Control was made up of, 2 3 entirely, of working on PCB issues ; correct? 2 4 MR. ZIMMER: Objection; assumes 2 5 facts not in evidence . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 HARTOLDMONOOQ7646 1 A. No. Repeat your question, please. 2 BY MS. GRADY: 3 Q. There was a time when your job was 4 Manager of Environmental Control consisted 5 entirely of working on PCB issues; correct? 6 A . No . 7 Q . There was a time when working on 8 PCB issues made up the majority of your work 9 a s Manager of Environmental' Control ; correct? 1 0 A . No . 1 1 Q What was the high point in terms 1 2 o f the time you spent on PCB-related 1 3 environmental issues? 1 4 A . Oh , I don't remember. 1 5 Q Did you spend 5 0 percent o f your 1 6 o n it? 1 7 A . No . 1 8 Q . Less than 50 percent of your time? 1 9 A . I ' m not sure 2 0 Q - Mr . Hodges, did you come t o the 2 1 belief that P C B s were a n environmental 2 2 problem a t some point in time? 2 3 A . Yes. 2 4 Q . When was that? 2 5 A. I don't remember that, either . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 HARTOLDMONOOQ7647 1 0 . Are you familiar with the use of 2 liquid seals in machinery? 3 A. 0 f what? 4 Q . Liquid seals . 5 MR. ZIMMER: What type of 6 machinery are we talking about? 7 MS. GRADY: Compressors. 8 A. What kind of machinery? 9 BY MS. GRADY: 10 Q. Compressors. 1 1 A. I 'm trying to think . In our 1 2 Chlorine Department, we had some kind of 1 3 liquid seals, but I don't remember what they 1 4 were. 1 5 Q. What was your understanding of a 1 6 1iquid seal? 1 7 A. I don't really have any 1 8 understanding of it. I never had anything to 1 9 do with them. 2 0 Q. You just knew they were used? 2 1 A. Yes. 2 2 Q. Were you a member of something 2 3 called the PCB committee? 2 4 A. I saw a document yesterday that 2 5 said I was. That was my first recollection GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 HARTOLDMONOOQ7648 1 of it 2 Q. What was the purpose of the PCB 3 committee? 4 A. To deal with the problem that had 5 shown up relative to the PCBs. 6 Q. And who were the other members of 7 the PCB committee? 8 A. I don't remember. 9 Q. When was it first started? 1 0 A . I don't remember that, either. 1 1 Q Are you familiar with something 1 2 Mr. Hodges called the ad hoc PCB committee 1 3 task force? 1 4 A. I believe that's what they called 1 5 the committee. 1 6 Q. So you don't distinguish in your 1 7 mind between something called the PCB 1 8 committee and something called an ad hoc PCB 1 9 committee? Is that right? 2 0 A. I don't, no. 2 1 Q. Mr. Hodges, are you familiar with 2 2 something called the Corporate Management 2 3 Committee at Monsanto? 2 4 A. Vaguely. 2 5 Q . Did you ever make a presentation GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 HARTOLDMONOOQ7649 1 to the Management Committee about 2 PCBs ? 3 A. Not to my knowledge. 4 Q. What about something called the 5 Corporate Development -- excuse me, 6 Development Committee? 7 A. I have no knowledge of that. 8 Q. Okay. Let me show you some 9 documents and see if I can refresh your 10 1 1 MS. GRADY: The first exhibit I'm 1 2 going to mark today is Exhibit 869, and Mr. 1 3 Hodges, for each exhibit I hand you, you 1 4 don't necessarily -- you should feel free to 1 5 read as much of the exhibit as you want. For 1 6 many of them, the questions I ask will not 1 7 require you to read the whole document, but 1 8 if you could familiarize yourself with it 1 9 and, in particular, figure out if you recall 2 0 seeing it before, that would be useful. 2 1 (Plaintiff's Deposition 22 Exhibit 869 marked for 23 identification.) 24 MS. GRADY: Let me describe 2 5 Exhibit 869 for The record as Bates range GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 20 HARTOLDMON0007650 1 TRAN 0 57 161 through 057 16 2. And Counsel , I 2 apologize; it looks like there's some 3 bleed-through of the printing. 4 MR. ZIMMER : Quite all right. I 5 don' t think it gets in the way of anything. 6 BY MS. GRADY: 7 Q. Okay, which purports to be a 8 memorandum from Elmer Wheeler to W . R. 9 Richard, dated December 9th, 1968; subject, 1 0 Aroclors , minutes of our discussion with Dr. 1 1 Calandra." Mr. Hodges is shown has a "cc" on 1 2 the memorandum. 1 3 A. A s what? 1 4 Q. You are shown a s a "cc" on the 1 5 memora n d urn. 1 6 A. That's right . 1 7 Q. Mr. Hodges , do you -- have you 1 8 seen Exhibit 869 prior to today? 1 9 A. I don't know. I'm on the 2 0 distribution. I assume I got it, but I can't 2 1 remember. 2 2 MR. DIMMER: Mr. Hodges, remember 2 3 not to assume because the document shows you 2 4 a s a "cc" that you necessarily got it. She's 2 5 here to test what you r emember, not what the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 21 HARTOLDMONOOQ7651 1 document says. 2 THE WITNESS: Okay. 3 A. I don't remember. 4 BY MS. GRADY: 5 Q. Did you play any role in designing 6 toxicity studies of PCBs? 7 A . No . 8 Q. Did you play any role in ordering 9 biodegradation studies of PCBs? 1 0 A . No . 11 Q. Did you play any role in ordering 1 2 decomposition studies of PCBs? 1 3 A . No . 1 4 Q. What was your role in relation to 1 5 the PCB issue that Monsanto faced? 1 6 MR. ZIMMER: In which time frame 17 are we talking about? 1 8 BY MS. GRADY: 1 9 Q. When you were head of 2 0 environmental controls between 1966 and 1975. 2 1 A. Well, I was aware that the problem 2 2 was going, was going on , and as we re s p on d e d 2 3 to it, why , I worked with the plants that 2 4 were involved, and I went t o meetings , I ' m 2 5 sure. That was about it. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 22 HARTOLDMONOOQ7652 1 Q. Was your primary role aimed a t 2 reducing the amount of PCBs released to the 3 environment from Monsanto ' s production 4 plants? 5 A . Yes. 6 Q Have you ever heard of someone 7 named Dr Calandra? 8 A . No . 9 Q Do you recall attending meetings 1 0 a t Monsanto where results of PCB animal 1 1 toxicity studies were discussed? 1 2 A . I don't recall. 1 3 Q Do you recall attending meetings 1 4 where results of biodegradation studies on 1 5 PCBs were discussed? 1 6 A . I don't recall that, either. 1 7 Q Did you have any contact with a 1 8 scientist named Dr. Risebrough? 1 9 A . No . 2 0 Q You mentioned a n incident out in 2 1 San Francisco . Did you have any role a t 2 2 Monsanto in analyzing a n issue out in San 2 3 Francisco, that involved finding PCBs? 2 4 A . No . 2 5 Q Do you recall how often the PCB GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 23 HARTOLDMONOOQ7653 1 committee met? 2 A . No . 3 Q . Could you read the last paragraph 4 of Exhibit 869, the onethat's numbered 11? 5 A . "It was a consensus that the group 6 should schedule monthly meetings to review 7 progress, for such meeting was tentatively 8 scheduled for January 15th at Dr. Calandra's 9 laboratories in Chicago." 1 0 Q . Does that refresh your 11 recollection in any way about how often the 1 2 PCB committee met? 1 3 A. No. I'm very positive I was not 1 4 at that meeting. 1 5 Q . Okay. Did you do an initial 1 6 analysis of the Anniston and Krummrich plants 1 7 to determine how much PCB was being released 1 8 from those plants? ~ 1 9 A. No, I didn't do it. I requested 2 0 the plants to do it. 2 1 Q. What was the result of that 2 2 request? 2 3 A. I haven't any idea. 2 4 Q. Do you recall when you made the 2 5 request? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 24 HARTOLDMONOOQ7654 1 A . No . 2 Q. Okay. Does the name W. A. Kuhn, 3 K-u-h-n, sound familiar to you? 4 A. Yes. 5 0 Who is W. A. Kuhn? 6 A. He was in the Business Group . I 7 don't know what his title was. 8 Q. And do you know what his, what his 9 job was, what he worked on? 10 A . No . 1 1 Q. When you were the head of 1 2 environmental controls, was that a position 1 3 that reported through the Organics Division? 1 4 A. Yes. 1 5 Q. And who was your boss? 1 6 A. Desmond Hosmer. 1 7 Q. What was Mr. Hosmer's title? 1 8 A. I don't remember exactly what it 1 9 was. 2 0 MS. GRADY: All right, the next 2 1 exhibit I'd like to mark is Exhibit 871 -- 2 2 THE WITNESS: You want this back? 2 3 MS. GRADY: No, if you keep up, 2 4 we're going to give it to our reporter at the 2 5 end of the deposition. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 25 HARTOLDMONOOQ7655 1 (Plaintiff's Deposition 2 Exhibit 871 3 Marked for identification.) 4 MS. GRADY: -- which I'll describe 5 for the record a s a two-page document bearing 6 Bates range TRAN 086143 through 086144, which 7 purports to be a memorandum from Paul Hodges 8 to Messrs. Wright, W-r-i-g-h-t, a t Anniston, 9 and Buckley a t Krummrich, subject, Aroclors 1 0 and plant effluent; date, January 23rd, 1969. 1 1 Mr. Hodges, is that your signature 1 2 on the second page of Exhibit 871? 1 3 A . Yes. 1 4 Q . And did you write Exhibit 8 7 1? 15 A. It's a -- yes. 1 6 Q Does this refresh your 1 7 recollection about requests that you made to 1 8 production plants to analyze how much P CB s 1 9 was being -- were being released? 2 0 A. Yes. 2 1 Q. Do you believe that the first 2 2 analysis of PCB release from Monsanto plants 2 3 was in 1969? 2 4 MR. ZIMMER: No foundation. Calls 2 5 for speculation. GORE REPORTINGCOMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 26 HARTOLDMONOOQ7656 1 A. I don't, I don't remember, 2 actually. 3 BY MS. GRADY: 4 Q . What other issues a s head of 5 environmental control did you work on, other 6 than issues related to PCBs? 7 A. Well, the entire effluents from 8 all of the, the plants in the Organics 9 Division, we were getting geared up on 1 0 reducing those, controlling much better, and 1 1 on the air effluents, a s well 1 2 Q I ' m sorry, on the -- 1 3 A . Air , air r e1e a s e s into the 1 4 atmosphere. 1 5 Q Oh , and what were the major 1 6 with respect to effluent release other than 1 7 PCBs? 1 8 A 11, it varied with the plants . 1 9 Q What about a t Anniston? 20 A Niran . 2 1 Q Excuse me? 22 A Niran . 2 3 Q What' s Nir a n ? 2 4 A It's a material that, for boll 25 weevils It was Parathion. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 27 HARTOLDMONOOQ7657 1 Q . So the release of Parathion was a n 2 issue a t the Anniston Plant; is that right? 3 A . Yes . 4 Q . What about a t the Krummrich Plant? 5 A. Phenols . 6 Q. And what kind of criteria were 7 used to determine the level of effluents 8 allowed to escape from Mon santo plants? 9 MR. ZIMMER: In what time period? 1 0 MS . GRADY; ' 6 6 to '75. 11 MR. ZIMMER: Throughout that 1 2 entire period? 1 3 MS. GRADY: If it changed, please 1 4 tell me 1 5 A . This was requirements of control 1 6 agencies, largely. 17 BY MS. GRADY: 1 8 Q. What about cost factors ; were 1 9 those considered? 2 0 A. Certainly. 21 (Plaintiff's Deposition 22 Exhibit 876 marked for 2 3 identification.) 2 4 MS. GRADY: The next exhibit is 2 5 Exhibit 876, which I'll describe for the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 28 HARTOLDMONOOQ7658 1 record a s a four-page document bearing two 2 sets of Bates numbers . One is PRR 0 2 1 8 8 9 3 through 0 2 1 8 9 2, and the other is S CM 0 3 7 3 1 1 4 through 0 3 7 3 1 4 . This document is entitled, 5 "Chlorinated Biphenyls , Chronological Events" 6 and consists of a series of dates followed by 7 what looks like events or correspondence. 8 BY MS. GRADY: 9 Q. Mr. Hodges, have you seen Exhibit 1 0 876 prior to today? 11 A . No . 1 2 Q. Okay, the next exhibit was marked 1 3 in a previous deposition as Exhibit 550, and 1 4 it consists an agenda followed by some 1 5 handwritten notes for what purports to be a 1 6 June 4th, 1969, meeting. Mr. Hodges' name 17 appears on the "cc" list. I'm sorry, I guess 1 8 that's a June 6th meeting that is being 1 9 discussed. 2 0 I'm also going to hand you, Mr. 2 1 Hodges , what what I'm going to mark today as 2 2 Exhibit 933, which is a two-page document 2 3 bearing Bates range TRAN 022339 through 2 4 2 2 3 4 0 . It's meeting notes, purports to be 2 5 meeting notes from a 6/6 meeting, "Aroclor GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 29 HARTOLDMONOOQ7659 1 Toxicity, " and I'd ask you to look a t Exhibit 2 9 3 3 and tell me if that ' s your handwriting . 3 A . No . 4 Q. What about Exhibit 550? Is that 5 your handwriting on the, after the cover 6 page? 7 No . 8 Q. Mr. Hodges, did you attend a 9 meeting in June 1969 where the -- where 1 0 information was provided about certain issues 11 and incidents involving PCBs? 1 2 A. I don't remember. 1 3 Q. Do you recall discussion of an 14 issue atany time when you were atMonsanto 1 5 about birds being found in England with high 1 6 doses of PCBs in their systems? 1 7 A. No. This was in England, you 1 8 said? 1 9 Q Yes, the North Coast 2 0 No . 2 1 Q. Are you familiar at all with the 2 2 work of a Dr. Jensen in Sweden regarding 2 3 PCBs? 2 4 No . 2 5 Q. What about the work of a scientist GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 30 HARTOLDMON0007660 1 named Dr. Widmark? 2 A NO a 3 Q. Do you know when Monsanto first 4 learned about allegations that PCBs might be 5 persisting in the environment? 6 MR. ZIMMER: When Monsanto first 7 learned that? 8 MS. GRADY: I'll change it. 9 A. What was this? 1 0 BY MS. GRADY: 11 Q. Do you recall -- let me strike 1 2 that last question. 1 3 Do you recall when you first 1 4 learned about allegations concerning PCBs 1 5 persisting in the environment? 1 6 A. I don't know the exact date. I 1 7 don't. 1 8 Q. Do you recall whetherit was -- 1 9 how exact do you recall? 2 0 A. What's that? 2 1 Q. What's the closest you can come? 2 2 Sometime in the Sixties? 2 3 A. It was in the Sixties, and this 2 4 was when we -- from California , and we didn't 2 5 believe it. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 31 HARTOLDMONOOQ7661 1 Q. Why didn't you believe it? 2 A. We considered that PCBs were 3 completely innocuous. 4 Q. Why was that? 5 A. Up to that time, a t least, there 6 was no reason to think otherwise . They are 7 very, very stable . I worked in the plant , . 8 there were no toxicity problems, and I 9 even -- I built a house about that time, and 1 0 I put PCBs in my caulking compound, and I 1 1 wouldn't have done that if I'd have thought 1 2 they were bad. 1 3 Q. Are you familiar with the term 1 4 "chloracne" ? 1 5 A. Yes. 1 6 Q. Were you --did you have any 17 knowledge of the association of chloracne 1 8 with contact with PCBs? 1 9 A . No . 2 0 Q. Had -- did you participate or hear 2 1 any discussions a t Monsanto about liver 2 2 damage and exposure to PCBs? 2 3 A. I don't remember. 2 4 Q. Did there come a point in time in 2 5 your unders tanding of the PCB issues where GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 32 HARTOLDMONOOQ7662 1 you came t o the understanding that the work 2 done out i n San Francisco was basically 3 valid? 4 MR . ZIMMER: Lacks foundation. 5 You can answer. 6 A. I'm sorry, what? 7 MR. ZIMMER: You can answer. I 8 just made a n objection for the record. 9 THE WITNESS: Oh. 1 0 A. Yes. 1 1 BY MS . GRADY: 12 Q. And when was that? 1 3 A. Oh, I haven't any idea. It was 1 4 when enough evidence came in from there and 1 5 other places . 1 6 Q. Do you recall how long after you 1 7 first heard about the incident in San 1 8 Franc i s c o that you came t o the understanding 1 9 that the research done out there was 2 0 basic ally valid? 2 1 A . No . 2 2 Q. Could you look a t the last page of 2 3 Exhibit 5.5 0 ? Under the heading "pollution, " 2 4 and you can read to yourself , please, the 2 5 discussion of -- that follows that heading. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 33 HARTOLDMONOOQ7663 1 A. Okay. 2 Q. Do you recall if you learned a t 3 any point that the Krummrich Plant was 4 dumping Therminol? 5 A. No, I don't recall it. 6 Q. Are you familiar with a product 7 called Therminol? 8 A . No . 9 Q. How large were the losses in PCBs 1 0 from the production plants a t the time you 1 1 ordered the first survey of, of effluent 1 2 losses? 1 3 A. I don't know. I mean, if we were 1 4 to do a survey, obviously, I wouldn't know 1 5 what those were. 1 6 Q After you got the survey results? 1 7 A . I'm still -- I don't rem ember what 1 8 they were. - 1 9 Q Okay, the next exhibit h as been 2 0 m a r k e d in a previous deposition as E xhibit 21 5 5 3. It's Bates number TRAN 058985 2 2 (Witness peruses sa i d 2 3 document.) 2 4 BY MS. GRADY: 2 5 Q. Mr. Hodges, does looking at GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 34 HARTOLDMONOOQ7664 1 Exhibit 553 refresh your recollection in any 2 way about a group or a committee studying 3 PCBs in the environment a t Monsanto? 4 A. This is what it says here, yes. 5 Q. Does it cause you to have any 6 enlarged -- anymore recollection of what that 7 committee was, the issues they looked a t, who 8 the members were? 9 A. No. Not much. 1 0 Q. Tell me everything you can recall 1 1 about the c ommi11 e e a t Monsanto that was 1 2 studying PCBs in the environment. 1 3 A. Really , I really don't recall much 1 4 of anything about it. 1 5 Q. Do you recall anything about it? 1 6 Whatever you recall , I want to know, no 1 7 matter how small that is. 1 8 A. I have a real, real loss on it. 1 9 I -- 2 0 Q. Nothing is coming back? 2 1 - A. Certainly not very much. 2 2 Actually, I had completely forgotten that I 2 3 was ever on such a committee. It says I was, 2 4 and I'm sure I must have been, but I've 2 5 forgotten it completely. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 35 HARTOLDMONOOQ7665 1 Q Other than Exhibit 553, which 2 indicates that you were on some sort of 3 subcommittee, do you recall anything else 4 about any work that you did on a committee or 5 a s ub commi11 e e s tudying PCB environmental 6 issues? 7 A. No. I don ' t . 8 Q. The next exhibit was marked in a 9 previous deposition a s Exhibit 5 5 2. 1 0 Mr. Hodges, are these -- is this 1 1 your handwriting? 1 2 A . No. 1 3 Q. What, if anything, do you recall 1 4 about any discussion about PCB residues in 1 5 fish? 1 6 A. In where? 1 7 Q . Fish. 1 8 A. Only, let's see, the California 1 9 thing, and then later -- and I don't know 2 0 when it was, found PCBs in fish in Lake 2 1 Michigan, and that ' s the extent of my memory 2 2 on that, 2 3 Q. Do you recall anything about PCBs 2 4 being -- 2 5 A. I think in the Hudson River also, GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MISS OURI 36 HARTOLDMONOOQ7666 1 I believe. 2 Q Huds on River? 3 A . I think so. 4 Q Do you recall anything about a n 5 incident in Florida involving PCBs in shrimp? 6 A . No . 7 Q The next exhibit is Exhibit 880, 8 which I'll describe for the record a s a 9 multipage document bearing Bates range TRAN 1 0 025165 through 025183. It purports to be an 1 1 Anniston Plant Technical Services Department 1 2 monthly report dated September 1969. 1 3 Mr. Hodges, does the form of 1 4 Exhibit 880 look familiar to you? 1 5 A . No . 1 6 Q - Have you ever seen monthly reports 1 7 coming out of the Anniston Plant? 1 8 A . I don't remember. 1 9 Q . Your name is listed under the 2 0 general office "cc" list. Does that help you 2 1 remember one way or another? 2 2 A . No. It's there, but I don' t 2 3 remember. 2 4 (Plaintiff's Deposition 2 5 Exhibit 881 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 37 HARTOLDMONOOQ7667 1 Marked for identification. ) 2 MS. GRADY: Okay, the next exhibit 3 is Exhibit 881, which I'll describe for the 4 record a s a multipage document bearing a 5 couple of different Bates numbers. One set 6 is MON 0178 through 0182. The other is a 7 Bates number 40114 through 40118. This 8 exhibit was marked a s a plaintiff ' s exhibit 9 in two other matters , apparently, but we've 1 0 added our Exhibit Number to it. Purports to 1 1 be a me mo r a ndum from Elmer Wheeler to Paul 12 Hodges,followed by minutes of Aroclor ad hoc 1 3 committee first meeting . Date, September 1 4 5th, 1969. 1 5 BY MS. GRADY: 1 6 Q. Mr. Hodges, if you could skim 1 7 through the purported notes of the committee 1 8 meeting and see if they refresh your 1 9 recollection in any way about your possible 2 0 attendance a t such a meeting. 2 1 (Witness peruses said 2 2 document . ) 2 3 A. . I think I recall this part in 2 4 which I was involved . 2 5 BY MS. GRADY: GORE REPORTING COMPANY - * ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 38 HARTOLDMONOOQ7668 1 Q . Are you looking a t page -- 2 A. Page 3. 3 Q. Page 3 ? 4 A. Mm-hmm. 5 Q. "Problem in producing plants"? 6 A. That was an area of my 7 8 9 discussion? 1 0 A. I don't recall this discussion a t 11 all, but obviously , we -- because later on, I 1 2 ordered, asked the plants to find out what 1 3 they, what they were doing, was part of it. 1 4 Q. Did you have any involvement in 1 5 PCB environmental discharge issues a t 1 6 Monsanto's customers? 1 7 A . No . 1 8 Q. Your role was strictly limited to 1 9 discharge of PCBs at Monsanto's own 2 0 facilities? 2 1 A. That's right, for the Organics 2 2 Division. 2 3 MS. GRADY: For the Organic 2 4 Division 2 5 (Plaintiff ' s Deposition GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , MISS OURI 39 HARTOLDMONOOQ7669 1 Exhibit 937 2 Marked for identification.) 3 BY MS. GRADY: 4 Q . Let. me show you Exhibit 9 37, which 5 bears Bates number 024269 through 024271, 6 purports to be handwritten notes of a task 7 force, September 5th -- September 5th. Mr. 8 Hodges, is this your handwriting? 9 A . No . 1 0 (Plaintiff's Deposition 11 Exhibit 883 1 2 Marked for identification.) 1 3 MS. GRADY: The next exhibit is 1 4 Exhibit 883, which is a multipage exhibit 1 5 bearing Bates number TRAN 023807 through TRAN 1 6 023814, purports to be a memorandum from 1 7 P. R. Richard to Elmer Wheeler: Subject, 1 8 defense of A r o c1o r F. fluids, shows Mr. 1 9 Hodges as a "cc", 2 0 BY MS. GRADY: 2 1 Q. Mr. Hodges, have you seen Exhibit 2 2 8 8 3 prior to today? 2 3 A. I don't remember. 2 4 Q. Who was M. Farrar? 2 5 A. Somebody in Research. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 40 HARTOLDMON0007670 1 Q What about -- 2 A. I don't k o w what his title was. 3 Q. What about H. Bergen? 4 A. Businessman. 5 Q. How did those fellows relate to 6 your position, if they did? 7 A. They didn't. 8 Q. In your discussions about PCBs 9 when you worked a t Monsanto, do you recall 1 0 use of the phrase "closed systems" versus 1 1 "open systems"? 1 2 A . No . 1 3 Q. Do you recall discussions of leaks 1 4 from air compressor fluids into, into the 1 5 products being compress ed? 1 6 MR . ZIMMER: Within Monsanto's 1 7 plants? 1 8 MS . GRADY: No . 1 9 A . No , I don't recall any such thing 2 0 MR . ZIMMER: Well, I guess it's 2 1 moot. 2 2 (Plaintiff's Deposition 2 3 Exhibit 884 2 4 Marked for identification.) 2 5 MS. GRADY: Okay, Exhibit 884. Is GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 41 HARTOLDMONOOQ7671 1 a multipage exhibit bearing Bates range TRAN 2 0 2 3 7 8 0 thr ough TRAN 0 2 3 7 8 5, purports to be a 3 progress report from the Krummrich Plant; 4 title , "Water Pollution, Ar o c1o r Control" 5 from M. A. Pierle , P-i-e-r-l-e . Mr Hodges ' 6 name is shown on the dis tribution list. 7 BY MS. GRADY: 8 Q. Mr. Hodges, do you recognize the 9 form of Exhibit 8 8 4 a s one you are familiar 1 0 with? 11 A . As a progress report? 1 2 Q Yes. 1 3 A . Yes, this is the form. 1 4 Q What were progress reports? 1 5 A . Just what it implies; status o f 1 6 whatever was under investigation or 1 7 discussion. 1 8 Q. Did Monsanto have a system for 1 9 requiring periodic reports on assignments 2 0 that had been given? . 2 1 A . No 22 Q. Why did progress reports on water 2 3 pollution A r o c1o r control come to you? 2 4 A. Because of my position a s Manager 2 5 of Environmental Control . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MISS OURI 42 HARTOLDMONOOQ7672 1 Q. When you were at the Krummrich 2 Plant, were Aroclors produced in Department 3 246? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What is Department 246? 6 A. Well, that ' s the Aroclors 7 Department. 8 Q. Do you recall a n instance where 9 the progress reported in reducing the amount 1 0 of PCBs released to the environment was not 11 adequate from your perspective? 1 2 A. I don't recall any such thing . 1 3 (Plaintiff's Deposition 1 4 Exhibit 885 1 5 Marked for identification. ) 1 6 MS. GRADY: The next exhibit is 1 7 885. It's a two-page document bearing Bates 1 8 range TRAN 059453 through TRAN 059454, 1 9 purports to be a memorandum from E. V. John 2 0 and Paul Hodges to plant communicators, 2 1 pollution control engineers and plant 2 2 managers, dated October 1st, 1969. 2 3 BY MS. GRADY: 24 Q. Did you draft Exhibit 885, Mr. 2 5 Hodges? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 43 HARTOLDMONOOQ7673 1 A . I don't know. 2 Q. Do you recall seeing it prior to 3 today? 4 A . I don't recall it. 5 Q. Did you understand part of your 6 work to be to gather information and make 7 recommendations concerning the manufacturing 8 ofAroclor products? 9 A. Give me that again. 1 0 Q . Sure. Did you understand part of 1 1 your job a s environmental control manager -- 1 2 A. Yes. 1 3 Q. -- to be, to make recommendations 1 4 about the manufacturing, the future 1 5 manufacturing of Aroclors? 1 6 MR. ZIMMER: You mean like whether 1 7 to manufacture them or not? Is that what you 1 8 areafter? ~ 1 9 BY MS. GRADY: 2 0 Q. Whether to manufacture them -- 2 1 A . No . 2 2 Q. -- how to manufacture them? 2 3 A. My work was with the discharge. 2 4 Q. Solely with the discharge? 2 5 A. Yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 44 HARTOLDMONOOQ7674 1 Q. Did you ever make a recommendation 2 that manufacture of Aroclors should be halted 3 a t any Monsanto plant? 4 A . No . 5 (Plaintiff's Deposition 6 Exhibit 555 is handed to the 7 witness.) 8 MS. GRADY: The next exhibit has 9 been marked in a previous deposition as 1 0 Exhibit 555. It's a multipage document 11 headed "Report of Aroclor Ad Hoc Committee" 1 2 dated October 2nd, 1969. 1 3 Mr. Hodges is s hown as one of the 1 4 authors. 1 5 MR. ZIMMER: I'm not sure I agree 1 6 with that characterization, but his name 1 7 appe a r s on the front page. 1 8 BY MS. GRADY: 1 9 Q. Mr . Hodges , does your handwriting 2 0 appear anywhere on this exhibit? 2 1 A . I ' m looking through. Not so far. 2 2 (Witness peruses said 2 3 document.) 2 4 A. (Continuing) No. 2 5 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 45 HARTOLDMONOOQ7675 1 as to whether all Monsanto customers were 2 notified that Monsanto, the Monsanto products 3 they purchased contained PCBs? 4 MR. ZIMMER: No foundation. 5 A. I have no knowledge of it. 6 MS. GRADY: No foundation for his 7 own personal knowledge? 8 MR. ZIMMER: For a guy that was in 9 charge of supervising discharge? 1 0 MS. GRADY: Fritz, you've got to 11 listen to the question. I asked him if he 1 2 had any personal knowledge . 1 3 MR. ZIMMER: I unders t and, but how 1 4 would he? 1 5 MS. GRADY: Oh, so you aresaying 1 6 that -- 1 7 A . It's not my job. 1 8 MS. GRADY: So I don't get to ask 1 9 the question. 20 MR . ZIMMER: You get to ask the 2 1 question, I get to make my objection. I 2 2 think you are wasting this gentleman's name. 2 3 MS. GRADY: Oh. 2 4 BY MS. GRADY: 2 5 Q . Could you look a t page TRAN GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 46 . HARTOLDMONOOQ7676 1 024257,please? , 2 A. What page? 3 MR. ZIMMER: She's referring to 4 these numbers down in the lower right-hand 5 corner. 6 What was the number? 7 MS. GRADY: TRAN 024257. 8 BY MS. GRADY: 9 Q. You mentioned, Mr. Hodges, that 1 0 you built a house where you used a PCB 11 product that contained -- excuse me, that you 1 2 used a caulking compound that contained PCBs. 1 3 Is that right? 1 4 A. Yes. 1 5 MR. ZIMMER : That mischaracterizes 1 6 his testimony. It didn't contain it. He put 17 it in it, is what he said. 1 8 A. Yeah, I put it in it. 1 9 BY MS. GRADY: 2 0 Q. You put the PCBs in the caulking 2 1 c ompound? 2 2 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. Do you recall -- look down at the 2 4 bottom of the page. Do you recall any 2 5 discussion with anyone at Monsanto about GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 47 HARTOLDMONOOQ7677 1 caulking compounds and sealants that 2 contained PCBs being a problem? 3 A. No. A s far a s I know, it was my 4 own idea. 5 Q. Do you recall anydiscussion about 6 oil or, and/or grease lubricant applications 7 withproducts containing PCBs being a 8 problem? 9 A . No . 1 0 Q. And by "problem," I mean an 1 1 environmental prob1em, did you understand the 1 2 question that way? 1 3 A. Yes, but I don't recall any 1 4 discussions . 15 Q. Do you recall being part of any 1 6 effort to gather information about PCB issues 1 7 for a n upper-level management group that was 1 8 making corporate decisions about PCBs? 1 9 A . No . 2 0 Q . Let me show you Exhibit 8 8 9, which 2 1 is a four-page document bearing Bates range 2 2 STR 018891 through 018894, dated 10/29/69: 2 3 Title , "Executive Summary, PCB Pollution. " 2 4 Do you recall seeing Exhibit 889 prior to 2 5 today? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 48 HARTOLDMONOOQ7678 1 A . No . 2 Q . Do you recall discussions during 3 the time that you were head of environmental 4 control a t Monsanto about the difficulty of 5 controlling the escape of PCBs into the 6 environment from industrial fluids? 7 A . No . 8 Q. Could you look a t the 9 second-to-the-las t page of Exhibit 8 8 9 down 1 0 a t the bottom where it says, "Monsanto future 1 1 action" and read to yourself that paragraph 1 2 that starts , "Presentation to CDC? 1 3 (Witness peruses said 1 4 document. ) 15 Q. (Continuing) Did you ever make a 1 6 presentation to something called the CDC 1 7 about plant clean-up. and control required 1 8 with relation to PCBs? ~ 1 9 A. Not that I recall. 2 0 MS. GRADY: Why don't we take a 2 1 five-minute break . Off the record. 2 2 (Recess) 2 3 MS. GRADY: Back on the record. 2 4 BY MS. GRADY: 2 5 Q . Let's mark a s our next exhibit GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 49 HARTOLDMONOOQ7679 1 Exhibit 890. It's a multipage exhibit 2 bearing Bates range STR 021938 through 3 021961, purports to be an outline, followed 4 by -- an outline entitled PCB environmental 5 pollution abatement plan, rough draft, 6 11/10/69, followed by a document called "PCB 7 Environmental Pollution Abatement Plan. " 8 (Plaintiff's Deposition 9 Exhibit 890 1 0 Marked for identification. ) 1 1 BY MS. GRADY: 1 2 Q. I'll have you take a look through 1 3 this, Mr. Hodges, and tell me if you 1 4 recognize it and if any of the handwriting in 1 5 this document is yours. 1 6 A. No and no. 1 7 Q. Could I direct your attention to 1 8 the page that up a t the top says page 14. 1 9 Under Item 2 on that -- on that page, 2 0 "Manufacturing," i t says f II Clean up plants." 2 1 Do you recall, was that your responsibility? 2 2 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. And do you recall any discussions 2 4 you had with high-level Monsanto managers 2 5 concerning cleaning up Monsanto's plants of GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 50 HARTOLDMONOOQ7680 oa i P 1 PCB s ? 2 A . No . 3 Q. Do you recall discussion at 4 Monsanto concerning discontinuing the 5 manufacture of all PCBs? 6 A . No . 7 Q. The last pages of this exhibit are 8 some handwritten charts, entitled "Profit and 9 Liability Versus Time," is the second-to-the1 0 last page of the exhibit, and the last page 1 1 of the exhibit is "Probability of Success." 1 2 Does any of your handwriting 1 3 appear on these two pages? 1 4 A . No . 1 5 Q. Do these charts look familiar to 1 6 you? 17 A . No . 1 8 Q. Do you recall any discussion about 1 9 how reducing the production of PCBs would 2 0 affect Monsanto's profit? 2 1 A . No . 2 2 MS. GRADY: The next exhibit is 2 3 Exhibit 894, which bears Bates range TRAN 2 4 058813 through -- I'm sorry, that's the first 2 5 page of the exhibit and then the second two GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 51 HARTOLDMONOOQ7681 1 pages are TRAN 058621 through 058622. The 2 first page is a memorandum from E. V. John to 3 a list of people including Mr. Hodges, dated 4 November 26th, 1969, concerning a PCB 5 meeting, and the second document in this 6 exhibit is what purpor ts to be a letter from 7 environment magazine to Mons an to Company, 8 dated November 18th, 1969, from someone named 9 Kevin P. Shea, S-h-e-a. 1 0 Do either of the documents that 1 1 make up Exhibit 894 look familiar to you, Mr. 1 2 Hodges? 1 3 A. I don't recall. 1 4 Q . A t what Monsanto plants was 1 5 A r o c1o r manufactured? 1 6 MR . ZIMMER: In what time frame? 17 MS . GRADY: ' 6 6 through '75. 1 8 A . At Krummrich, Anniston and Newport 1 9 Wales. 2 0 BY MS. GRADY: 2 1 Q . A t what Monsanto plants were 2 2 products containing Aroclors blended? 2 3 A. I don't know. 2 4 Q. Were emissions of plants whe re 2 5 Aroclors were not manuf actured but they were GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 52 HARTOLDMONOOQ7682 1 used to produce other products, were 2 emissions a t those plants monitored? 3 A. A t what time? 4 Q. Anytime you were head of 5 Environmental Control . 6 A. I don't remember, actually. 7 Q. You don't recall whether that was 8 done or not done a t any particular point in 9 time? 1 0 A . No . 11 (Plaintiff's Deposition 1 2 Exhibit 909 1 3 Marked for identification. ) 1 4 MS. GRADY: The next exhibit is 1 5 Exhibit 909, which is a multipage exhibit 1 6 bearing Bates range TRAN 085096 through 1 7 085103, purports to be a memorandum from 1 8 R. C. Neal and A. E. Peterson to a list of 1 9 people: Subject, Aroclor use at JFQ; date, 2 0 September 2 1st, 1 9 7 0. Mr . Hodges is shown on 2 1 the "c c" list. 2 2 Mr. Hodges, do you recognize 2 3 Exhibit 9 0 9 ? 2 4 A. I don't recall it. 2 5 Q. Did you receive periodic reports GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 53 HARTOLDMONOOQ7683 1 from the Queeny Plant concerning what they 2 were doing to limit emissions of P C B s ? 3 A. I don't remember. 4 Q. You testified earlier that you 5 could not remember when you formed the 6 understanding that PCBs were a n environmental 7 contaminant. Cou Id you read the last 8 paragraph on the first page of Exhibit 909 9 and see if that refreshes your recollection 1 0 in any way concerning the date when you came 1 1 to that understanding? 1 2 A. What do you want to know about 1 3 this? 1 4 Q Does this re fresh your 1 5 recollection about when you formed the 1 6 understanding that PCBs were a n environmental 1 7 contaminant? 1 8 A . No . 1 9 Q Like, for in stance , whether it was 2 0 prior to September 2 1st , 1970? 2 1 A . Oh, I'm sure it was, yes. 2 2 Q You just don ' t -- 2 3 A . I don't know when, though. 2 4 Q But it was s ometime before 2 5 September 1 9 7 0 ? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 54 HARTOLDMONOOQ7684 1 A. Yes, obviously. 2 Q. Do you recall that there were some 3 heater units at the Queeny Plant that used 4 Aroclors? 5 A. I don't recall. 6 Q. Do you recall loss ofAroclors 7 from machinery used a t the Queeny Plant? 8 A. No, I don't recall. 9 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge 1 0 a s to whether , prior to 1 9 7 0, Monsanto' s 11 customers had been told not to dump PCBs down 12 sewers? 1 3 A . No . 1 4 Q. Could I direct your attention to 1 5 what's marked up at the top, page 4 of 1 6 Exhibit 909? In the first paragraph, could 17 you read that about the sealfluid for a Nash 1 8 compressor? 1 9 (Witness peruses said 2 0 document.) 2 1 Q . Does that refresh your 22 recollection in any way about the loss of 2 3 Aroclors from machinery a t the Queeny Plant? 2 4 A . No . 2 5 MR. ZI MM E R: No f oundation and GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 55 HARTOLDMONOOQ7685 1 assumes facts not in evidence . 2 BY MS. GRADY: 3 Q. Mr. Hodges, if I wanted to find 4 out about the loss of Aroclors from a Nash 5 compressor at the Queeny Plant in 1970 6 through '72, who would you r e commend I talk 7 to? 8 MR . ZIMMER: Calls for 9 speculation. 1 0 You can answer. 1 1 A. I don't know. I ' m long, long 1 2 since out of it. 1 3 BY MS. GRADY: 1 4 Q. Do you recall who was -- maybe you 1 5 recall this from when you worked in the 1 6 Krummrich Plant -- was the organization of 1 7 the plant such that there was an individual 1 8 responsible for maintenance of the machines 1 9 used in the plant? 2 0 A. I'm sure. 2 1 Q. But you don't recall one way or 2 2 another? % 2 3 A . No . 2 4 Q. Okay. Did you or you in 2 5 conjunction with other people at Monsanto set GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 56 HARTOLDMONOOQ7686 1 a limit on how much PCS effluent could b e 2 discharged from a Monsanto plant? 3 A. Not to my knowledge. 4 Q. Could you look a t the page in this 5 Exhibit 9 09 that is marked page 6 up a t the 6 top? Under the section in the middle , there , 7 that says "Discussion" and starts, "According 8 to Paul Hodges," could you read that 9 paragraph , please? 1 0 A. I see what it says, but I don't 1 1 recall it. 1 2 Q. Okay. This says that there was a 1 3 tentative maximum of ten parts per billion 1 4 for effluent from Monsanto plants. Is that 1 5 right? 1 6 MR. ZIMMER: The document speaks 1 7 for itself. 1 8 MS. GRADY: That's true; that was 1 9 just readable. 2 0 BY MS. GRADY: 2 1 Q . That does not refresh your 2 2 recollection about any -- 2 3 A . No . 2 4 Q . -- limits on effluent? 2 5 (Plaintiff's Deposition GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 57 HARTOLDMONOOQ7687 1 Exhibit 912 2 Marked for identification. ) 3 MS. GRADY: Okay, let me show you 4 Exhibit 912, which is made up of TRAN 036827 5 through TRAN 036837, purports to be a 6 memor andum from the J . F. Queeny Plant to a 7 list of people that is made up of Paul 8 Hodges , Mr. Papageorge and Mr. Savage. The 9 subject is "Aroclor Los s Status Report," and 1 0 the date is 9-21-70. I ask you to take a 1 1 look at Exhibit 912 and tell me if it looks 1 2 familiar to you. 1 3 MR. ZIMMER: I think the date on 1 4 this one is actually De cember 29, ' 7 0 , 1 5 referenc es the 9/21/70 report . 1 6 MS. GRADY: Oh , thanks. You are 1 7 right . You are absolut e 1 y right. 1 8 MR. ZIMMER: No problem. 1 9 A . What was the q u e s t i o n ? 2 0 BY MS. GRADY: 2 1 Q The question was whether this 2 2 document that's Exhibit 912 looks familiar to 2 3 you. 2 4 A . No . 2 5 Q Does it refr esh your recollection GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 58 HARTOLDMONOOQ7688 1 in any way about any reports you might have 2 received about Aroclor loss a t the QUeeny 3 Plant ? 4 A . No . 5 Q. Can I direct your attention to 6 page 6 of this? It's up in the uppe r 7 right-hand corner, it says, page 6 of this 8 exhibit , there ' s a section called "Nash 9 Compressor HC1 System, " and the first 1 0 sentence says, "Aroclor 1 2 3 2 1 used a s the 11 sealing fluid for the Nash c o mpre s s o r H C1 1 2 system. Losses are estimated a t 6,0 0 0 pounds 1 3 annually. " Mr. Hodges , does that refresh 14 your recollection about any discussions you 1 5 ever had with anyone a t Monsanto about losses 1 6 of Aroclors from machinery a t M on santo 1 7 plants? 1 8 A. No. ~ 1 9 Q. Do you know what a Nash c omp r e s s or 2 0 is? 2 1 A. Vaguely. 2 2 Q. What is it? 2 3 A. It's used to compress chlorine a t 2 4 the Krummrich Plant, but I had no experience 2 5 with it. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 59 HARTOLDMONOOQ7689 1 o. Do you know how it worked? 2 A . Not really. "* 3 o. 0 n the next page there is 4 discussion, a t page 7 there's a discussion of 5 "Heating units, two heating systems employing 6 A r o c1o r 1 2 4 8 are in use. Annual losses total 7 of approximately 2,500 pounds from these 8 units. The bulk of the losses are the result 9 of pump leaks." 1 0 Does that refresh your 1 1 recollection in any way about any discussions 1 2 you ever had with anyone a t Monsanto about 1 3 losses of Aroclors from machinery used in 1 4 Monsanto plants? 1 5 A . No . 1 6 Q Do you remember that -- do you 1 7 remember Ar o c1o r blending operations being 1 8 terminated a t the Queeny Plant? 1 9 A . No . 2 0 Q Did you ever provide advice to 2 1 Monsanto s customers concerning how they 22 could reduce PCB effluent release from their 2 3 plants? 2 4 A . No . 2 5 Q Was there someone, to your GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 60 HARTOLDMON0007690 1 knowledge, a t Monsanto that provided that 2 service? 3 A. Notto my knowledge. 4 Q. Have you ever heard of a company 5 called Transwestern Pipeline Company prior 6 to -- 7 A . No . 8 Q. -- your appearance? 9 Have you ever heard of a company 1 0 called Texas Eastern? 1 1 A . No . 1 2 Q . Do you recall efforts being made 1 3 to survey the Monsanto plants to unsure that 1 4 no Aroclors came in contact with anything 1 5 that later would come in contact with food? 1 6 A. Give me that question again. 17 Q. Sure. Do you recall any 1 8 discussions or any efforts at Monsanto to 1 9 survey the manufacturing plants to ensure 2 0 that no A r o c1o r products came in contact with 2 1 anything that would later come in contact 2 2 withfood? 2 3 A . No . 2 4 Q. Let me show you Exhibit 922, which 2 5 I don't have. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 61 . HARTOLDMONOOQ7691 1 (Plaintiff's Deposition 2 Exhibit 925 3 Marked for identification. ) 4 MS. GRADY: Well, let me show you 5 Exhibit 925, then. Which I'll describe for 6 the record a s a four-page exhibit bearing 7 Bates range TRAN 036583 through TRAN 036586 8 from A. P. Peterson and M. T. S c h a d e , 9 S-c-h-a-d-e to F. J. Holzapfel , 1 0 H-o-1-z-a-p-f-e-1, dated November 30th, 1971: 11 Subject, potential PCB contamination, JFQ. 12 (Witness peruses said 1 3 document.) 1 4 BY MS. GRADY: 1 5 Q Have you seen Exhibit 925 prior t o 1 6 today, Mr . Hodges? 1 7 A . No . 1 8 Q Do you recall -- 1 9 A . I don't remember, I should say. 2 0 Q Do you recall any discussions 2 1 while you were a t Monsanto about the use of 2 2 Aroclors in air compressors a s a possible 2 3 problem? 2 4 A . I don't recall. 2 5 Q. Have you ever had your deposition GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 62 HARTOLDMONOOQ7692 1 taken before? 2 A . No. 3 Q. Have you ever provided 4 consultation concerning litigation involving 5 PCB s ? 6 A . No . 7 Q. Have you ever testified in any 8 litigation? 9 A. Not in litigation. 1 0 Q. Have you testified in 1 1 Congressional hearings or other 1 2 administrative hearings? 1 3 A. No, I've testified in agencies 1 4 setting up regulations. 1 5 Q. Did those regulations involve 16 PCBs? 1 7 A . No 1 8 MS. GRADY: I have no further 1 9 questions. Thank you, very much, for your 2 0 time. 2 1 Any questions, Mr. Zimmer ? 2 2 MR . ZIMMER: No . 2 3 MS . GRADY: Can we stipulate on 2 4 the record that we'll have the usual routine 2 5 with regard t o provision of th e transcript to GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 63 HARTOLDMONOOQ7693 1 Mr. Hodges, his signing of it, and our 2 ability to use the transcript if signature is 3 not provided? 4 MR. ZIMMER: That1s fine. 5 THE WITNESS: Incidentally, I 6 would, if you are going to send a copy to me, 7 it ought to come to Arizona. 8 MS. GRADY: Okay, maybe you could 9 p r o v i d 6 t h s t address to our reporter, since 1 0 he'll have that responsibility, and we can 11 that o f f the record. Thank you , very much. 1 2 (Whereupon, a t 10:15 a.m . / 1 3 the deposition was 1 4 concluded.) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 64 HARTOLDMONOOQ7694 1 COMES NOW THE WITNESS, PAUL 2 B LOCHER HODGES , and having read the foregoing 3 transcript of the deposition taken on the 8th 4 day of October, 1992, acknowledges by 5 signa ture hereto that it is a true and 6 accurate transcript of the testimony given on 7 the date hereinabove mentioned. 8 9 10 1 1 PAUL BLOCHER HODGES 12 13 1 4 Subscribed and sworn to before me 1 5 thisday of , 1 9 9 2. 16 1 7 My Commission expires: _____________________________________ 18 19 20 21 2 2 Notary Public 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 65 HARTOLDMONOOQ7695 1 STATE OF MIS S OUR I ) 2 SS: ) 3 CITY OF ST. LOUIS ) 4 I J. Bryan Jordan, notary public 5 in and for the State of Missouri, duly 6 commissioned, qualified and authorized to 7 administer oaths and to certify depositions, 8 do hereby certify that pursuant to agreement 9 in the civil cause now pending and 1 0 undetermined in the Superior Court of the 1 1 County of Los Angeles, for the State of 1 2 California, to be used in the trial of said 1 3 cause in said court, I was attended at the 1 4 offices of Bryan Cave, in the City of St. 1 5 Louis, State of Missouri, by the aforesaid 1 6 witness and by the aforesaid attorneys, on 1 7 the 8th day of October, 1992. 1 8 The said witness, being of sound 1 9 mind and being by me first carefully examined 2 0 and duly cautioned and sworn to testify the 2 1 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 2 2 truth in the case aforesaid, thereupon 2 3 testified as is shown in the foregoing 2 4 transcript, said testimony being by me 2 5 reported in shorthand and caused to be GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OURI 66 . HARTOLDMONOOQ7696 1 transcribed into typewriting, and that the 2 foregoing pages correctly set forth the 3 testimony of the aforementioned witness, 4 together with the questions propounded by 5 counsel and remarks and objections thereto, 6 and is in all respects a full, true, correct 7 and complete transcript of the questions 8 propounded to and the answers given by said 9 witness; that signature ofthe deponent was 10 not waived by agreement of counsel. 11 I further certify that I a m not of 1 2 counsel or attorney for either of the parties 1 3 to said suit, not related to nor interested 1 4 in any of the parties or their attorneys . 1 5 Witness my hand and notarial seal 1 6 a t St. Louis , Miss our i , this day of 17 ___ , 1 9 9 2 . . 1 8 My c ommis sion expires July 20, 1 9 1 9 9 4. 20 21 22 2 3 Notary Public in and for the 2 4 State of Missouri 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 67 HARTOLDMONOOQ7697