Document 29DvD0Ym5GaYm15Y39NEM2dg

3U 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS BEAUMONT DIVISION ************************** * * * kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk * CECIL SCOTT, ET AL * k CIVIL ACTION VS. k NO. B-84-1103-CA MONSANTO COMPANY k k kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk VIDEO DEPOSITION OF JACK T. GARRETT 3:24 p.m. to 7:56 p.m. May 28, 1987 Ramada Airport Inn St. Louis, Missouri Reported by: Linda C. Baker Texas CSR No. 505/Notary Public Nell McCallum & Associates 2900 Smith, Suite 104 Houston, Texas 77006 (713) 523-3767 Taxable Cost: $ Charged to: DAVID M. LACEY, State Bar No: Attorney for: Plaintiffs ESQ. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026104 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 For the Plaintiffs: 3 DAVID M. LACEY, ESQ. Gilpin, Pohl & Bennett 4 Allied Bank Tower, 23rd Floor 1300 Post Oak Boulevard 5 Houston, Texas 77056 6 For the Defendant: 7 WALTER J. CRAWFORD, ESQ, 8 Wells, Peyton, Beard, Greenberg, Hunt & Crawford 9 Petroleum Building Beaumont, Texas 77701 10 AND 11 ROBERT A. JONES, ESQ, 12 Woodard, Hall & Primm 4700 Texas Commerce Tower 13 Houston, Texas 77002 14 Videotechnician: 15 James Heironimus 16 Executive Service Groups 17 ******** 18 19 Video Deposition of JACK T. GARRETT, taken 20 on May 28, 1987, at Ramada Airport Inn, St. Louis, 21 Missouri, between the hours of 3:24 p.m. and 7:56 p.m. , 22 before Linda C. Baker, CSR No. 505 and Notary Public in 23 and for the State of Texas, at the instance of the 24 Plaintiff,.pursuant to Notice and the Federal Rules of 25 Civil Procedure. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026105 1 2 TABLE_Qf--CONTENTS 3 4 WITNESS: JACK T. GARRETT 5 6 APPEARANCES 7 8 PROCEEDINGS 9 EXAMINATION BY: 10 Mr. Lacey Mr. Jones 11 12 RE-EXAMINATION BY: Mr. Lacey 13 14 WITNESS SIGNATUREPAGE AND JURAT 15 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 16 17 LAWYER'S NOTES 18 19 20 21 ******* 22 23 24 25 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. 3 PAGE 2 4 5 141 170 205 206 207 STLCOPCB4026106 4 1 PROCEEDINGS 2 3 THE VIDEOTECHNICIAN: Okay. This 4 videotape deposition is being taken in ' 5 Cause No. B-84-1103-CA and is fi-ed in the 6 United States District Court for the 7 Eastern District of Texas, Beaumont 8 Division. 9 The style of the case is Cecil Scott 10 versus Monsanto Company. 11 For the record, the video recorder 12 today is James Heironimus of the firm 13 Executive Service Groups; and the 14 Certified Court Reporter present today is 15 Linda Baker of the firm Nell McCallum & 16 Associates. 17 We are here today to take the oral 18 and video deposition of the witness, 19 Mr. Jack T. Garrett; and we are located at 20 the Ramada Airport Inn in St. Louis, 21 Missouri. 22 Today's date is May 28th, 1987, and 23 the time is approximately 3:24 p.m. 24 Will Counsel now please state their 25 appearances for the record. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4026107 5 1 MR. LACEY: David Lacey, representing' 2 the plaintiffs. 3 MR. JONES: My name is Robert Jones, 4 and I represent.Monsanto Company. ' 5 THE VIDEOTECHNICIAN: Would__the court 6 reporter please swear in the witness. 7 8 9 10 11 12 JACK T. GARRETT, 13 having been first duly sworn, testified as follows: 14 15 . EXAMINATION 16 17 QUESTIONS BY MR. LACEY: 18 Q Would you state your full name for the record, 19 please, sir? 20 A Jack T. Garrett. 21 Q Where do you live, Mr.Garrett? 22 A In Kirkwood, Missouri. 23 Q How are you employed? 24 A I am retired. 25 Q From what company are you retired? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026108 6 1 A Monsanto. 2 Q When did you start your employment with them? 3 A In January 1950. 4 Q And when did you retire? 5 A In November 1985. -- 6 Q Did you retire at the regular retirement age? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Tell me briefly about your educational 9 background following high school. 10 A I have a B.S. Degree in Chemistry from Oklahoma 11 State University at Stillwater, Oklahoma. 12 Q Any subsequent education? 13 A And a Master's Degree in Chemistry from the 14 University of Tennessee at Knoxville. 15 Q .Any education, formal education? 16 A Formally, no. 17 Q Have you taken any specializedcourses of any 18 type? 19 A Many, many. 20 Q In what areas? 21 A Industrial hygiene, pollution control, 22 management, management style. 23 Q When did you receive yourBachelor's Degree? 24 A 1948, August. 25 Q And your Master's Degree? - NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. . . * STLCOPCB4026109 7 1 A December of 1949. 2 Q Your entire employment career, then, after you 3 completed your education was with Monsanto? 4 A That is correct. ' 5 Q When you started to work for Monsanto-,- what 6 type of employment did you have with them? 7 A I was a research chemist. 8 Q And how long were you a research chemist? 9 A A little over three years. 10 Q Sometime in 1953 you changed to something else? 11 A That is correct. 12 Q What did you change to? 13 A I was transferred from the Texas City plant to 14 St. Louis to the Central Medical Department. 15 Q And what was your assignment within the Central 16 Medical Department? . 17 A As an industrial hygienist -- 18 Q Did you -- 19 A -- and stream pollution control advisor. 20 Q Industrial hygienist and -- 21 A And. 22 Q And what was the last? Extreme? 23 A Stream -- 24 Q Stream. 25 A -- pollution controladvisor,. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026110 8 1 Q Had you, at the point you took that job in the' 2 Medical Department in 1953, had any experience in 3 industrial hygiene? 4 A Experience at Texas City in studying the t 5 products and processes of that plant, and preparing a 6 report showing the handling hazards of the products and 7 major raw materials of the plant. 8 MR. LACEY: As an aside. Bob, I feel 9 like I should ask about styrene tar, but 10 I'll pass. 11 BY MR. LACEY: 12 Q With regard to your work for stream pollution 13 control, what type of assignments did you have and what 14 did you do for Monsanto? 15 A .1 went to the individual plants.of the company, 16 advising them to -- if they had not done so, to study 17 their stream pollution problems and begin to do things 18 about them -- about it if they had not done so. And 19 many of them had. 20 ~Q And you weregoing here toMonsantoplants? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Did you continue to work with stream pollution 23 control throughout your career with Monsanto? 24 A No. 25 Q Withregard to the industrialhygiene^, what NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026111 9 1 type of assignment did you have? 2 A To study the Monsanto manufacturing plants 3 worldwide, and to study the handling techniques and 4 procedures within the plants to protect the workers. ' 5 Q And did you retain those types of .duties 6 throughout your career with Monsanto? 7 A Yes. . 8 Q When did you cease to have responsibilities for 9 stream pollution control? 10 A I am not completely sure, but '74 or '75. 11 Q What titles did you hold from the time that you 12 joined the Medical Department until your retirement? 13 A Manager -- Industrial Hygienist; Manager, 14 Pollution Control; Manager, Industrial Hygiene; Manager, 15 Industrial Hygiene and Pollution Control; Industrial 16 Hygiene Director; and Industrial Hygiene and Information 17 Services Director. 18 Q At some point in time, did you start 19 supervising people? 20 A Yes. 21 Q When did you begin supervising people? 22 A In the early '70's. 23 Q So up to the early '70's, you were an employee 24 who was responsible for actually carrying out work and 25 reported to someone else -- . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026112 10 1 A Yes . 2 Q -- as opposed to supervising someone. Correct? 3 A Yes. 4 MR. JONES: Jack, let him finish 5 his -- 6 THE WITNESS: Excuse me. 7 MR. JONES: -- his -- his question 8 before you answer it. It will just make 9 it a lot cleaner. 10 BY MR. LACEY: 11 Q In the early 1970s, you began to take on 12 management responsibilities? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And it was also at that time, I assume, that 15 you started your management training courses? 16 A Yes. 17 Q . How many people did you supervise from 1970 18 f orward? 19 A I started out with one. And when I retired, I 20 was supervising 28. 21 Q And was that a result of your increasing the 22 levels that you supervised, or just increasing the 23 number of people that reported to the position you 24 initially held? 25 A That would be difficult to answer. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026113 11 1 Q Okay. What title did you hold when you started 2 supervising people? 3 A Manager, Industrial Hygiene. 4 Q And did you make any move up in the corporate 5 structure after that point? -- 6 A Yes. 7 Q And did those upward moves result in your 8 supervising more people as a result of taking on more 9 responsibility? 10 A And more functions. 11 Q Okay. And the additional functions that you 12 took on related to at some point taking on the pollution 13 control function? 14 A Yes. 15 Q .And that meant there was an additional line of 16 people reporting to you that had not previously reported 17 as industrial hygienist? 18 A Yes. 19 Q When you took on the position or title of 20 Industrial Hygiene Director, did you still have 21 pollution control people reporting to you? 22 A No. 23 Q Did that result in a decrease in the number of 24 people reporting to you? 25 A No. . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026114 12 -i 1 Q And when you took on the title of Industrial 2 Hygiene and Information Service, did that add additional 3 people reporting back to you, or was that -- 4 A Yes. 5 Q Okay. So there were groups both of industrial 6 hygienists and information people, as well, reporting? 7 A Yes. 8 Q I want to focus ray questions primarily on the 9 area of industrial hygiene, if we could. Tell me what 10 industrial hygiene is. 11 A It's theinterdisciplinary science of 12 investigating and correcting workplace hazards. 13 Q Are there specific programs that one can study 14 this discipline? 15 A .There are now. 16 Q I take it from the answer there at one time did 17 not exist such programs. 18 A No. There were no such programs specifically 19 issuing a degree or matriculation in industrial hygiene. 20 Q When did that first become available? 21 A In the -- probably in the '60's and early 22 '70*3. 23 Q Is there any type of group that tests 24 industrial hygienists, certifies industrial hygienists, 25 registers industrial hygienists -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026115 13 1 A Yes. 2 Q -- or the like? 3 A Yes. 4 Q What group is that? 5 A That's the American Board of Industrial 6 Hy gi ene. 7 Q And are you a member of that group? 8 A No. I am a member of the American Academy of 9 Industrial Hygiene. 10 Q Does the American Academy of Industrial Hygiene 11 test -- 12 A Well, it would take some explanation. 13 The American Board establishes the criteria and 14 the questions and the circumstances and the times for 15 testing or for running the certification tests, of which 16 there are two. 17 When you -- if you pass, you are automatically 18 a member of the American Academy of Industrial Hygiene. 19 Q Is that the only way you can become a member of 20 that Academy? 21 A That iscorrect. 22 Q And you took the test andpassed? 23 A I did. 24 Q When did you become a member of that Academy, 25 approximately? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026116 14 1 A Early 1601s, when it was organized. 2 Q Did you take the test, or were you 3 grandfathered in? 4 A I took the test. 5 Q When you came to the Monsanto Medical- 6 Department in 1950, who were the professionals then in 7 the department? ' 8 MR. JONES: I don't -- I object to 9 that question as a mischaracterization of 10 his prior testimony. 11 BY MR. LACEY: 12 Q I'm sorry. Did you come to the Monsanto 13 Medical Department -- I'm sorry. 1953. 14 A The other what? Excuse me. Restate the 15 question. 16 Q When you came to the Monsanto Medical 17 Department in 1953, who were the other professional 18 members in the department? 19 A The Director was Dr. R. Emmet Kelly. The 20 Assistant Director and my immediate superior was 21 Mr. Elmer P. Wheeler. There was a one-half time 22 physician. Dr. R. E. Mezera, M-e-z-e-r-a; a technician, 23 medical technician; and one secretary. 24 Q Did Mr. Wheeler have any particular area of 25 specialization? - NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026117 15 1 A Industrial hygiene. 2 Q So he was already there as an industrial 3 hygienist when you arrived? 4 A Ye s. ' 5 Q Who was the next industrial hygienist-to join 6 the department, and when did he join? 7 A Dr. Carl D. Bohl, B-o-h-1. And he joined in 8 1970 or '71. I can't recall exactly. 9 Q So until 1970, the only industrial hygienists 10 that Monsanto had were you and Mr. Wheeler. Correct? 11 A In the main office. 12 Q What other areas had industrial hygienists in 13 Monsanto? 14 A The industrial hygiene responsibility lie with 15 the Safety Departments of the individual plants. 16 Q Did they have industrial hygienists on their 17 staff ? 18 A Some of them had people doing that 19 particular -- particular parts of that particular 20 professional job, who later became Certified industrial 21 Hygienists. 22 Q Okay. So there were some people who got 23 on-the-job training, so to speak, like yourself? 24 A That is correct. 25 Q What was the function of the. industri`21 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026118 16 1 hygienists who were assigned to the Corporate Medical 2 Department ? 3 A It was to maintain liaison with the corporate 4 medical structure with the plants, and to check the 5 plants thoroughly and make recommendations for,-change in 6 connection with hazards noted. 7 Q Did that mean that you spent a fair amount of 8 time visiting Monsanto plants? 9 A Yes, indeed. 10 Q About what percent of your time in the 1950's 11 was spent in actually visiting Monsanto plants? 12 A 50,60 percent. 13 Q In the 1960's, what percent of your time was 14 spent visiting Monsanto plants? 15 A .Probably about the same. 16 Q Did that percentage go down in the 1970's, when 17 there were other industrial hygienists on staff and you 18 began to take on administrative responsibilities? 19 A Yes. 20 Q In the first half of the 1970's, what percent 21 of your time was spent visiting Monsanto facilities? 22 A 30 to 40 percent. 23 Q And in the second half of the '70's, what 24 percent was spent visiting Monsanto facilities? 25 A Probably 20 to 25. , NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026119 17 1 Q Did you ever have responsibility for visiting 2 facilities other than those owned by Monsanto? 3 A Only when I was asked and allowed to by the 4 system. " 5 Q The system? 6 A Subsidiary companies, that sort ofthing. 7 Q Monsanto was organized, as I understand it, at 8 least the main company, into different divisions that at 9 one point in time were called operating companies, 10 although they were all part of the main Monsanto. Is 11 that correct? 12 A That is correct. 13 Q And those are plants that you would visit on a 14 regular basis. Correct? 15 A .That's correct. 16 Q And when you talk about subsidiaries, are you 17 talking about a different type of facility? 18 A Yes. 19 Q What do you mean when you talk about a 20 subsidiary? 21 A We had a subsidiary in Mexico, for example, 22 that we owned a portion of. And -- and we would visit 23 at that plant. 24 We had subsidiary companies other than the -- 25 we had some in the U. S. and some elsewhere tH3t we NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. . STLCOPCB4026120 18 1 visited if we were told to visit them, if we owned 2 50 percent or more of the company. 3 Q You would not visit subsidiary companies unless 4 Monsanto owned at least 50 percent of it? . 5 A Not necessarily. If we were inviteed-in and 6 agreements were made by Monsanto with the company, we 7 did; or if we had contractual obligations to do so, we 8 did. 9 Q Did you ever have assigned to you the 10 responsibility of visiting plants of companies in which 11 Monsanto did not own an interest? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Explain that to me. 14 A In the handling of parathion and methyl 15 parathion, we visited all blending plants, or they did 16 not receive our product. 17 Q When you say "blending plants," are you talking 18 about companies to whom Monsanto sold the chemicals? 19 A That is correct. 20 Q How many companies or customers, I guess is -- 21 is how I will refer to it -- how many customers of 22 Monsanto did you visit in connection with that 23 assignment ? 24 A Probably well over 100. 25 Q Did you visit each customer only once? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026121 19 1 A Not necessarily. 2 Q What was the dif ference between those that were 3 visited once and those th at were visited more than once? 4 A If they changed their process from handling 5 solid parathion applied t o a -- an inert carrier, a dust 6 carrier, to handling that product as well as the 7 emulsified liquid product , we revisited them then to 8 make sure that the produc t handling was safe or we would 9 not sell it to them. 10 Q Is that the only occasion where you were ever 11 assigned as a part of you r job duties with Monsanto the 12 responsibility to visit a plant belonging to a Monsanto 13 customer ? 14 A That's a difficult question to answer, because 15 you leave the word out "if you were not requested to do 16 so." And you must put that word in to get it answered. 17 Q Well, I'm not sure I understand. Were you 18 requested to visit these parathion customers? 19 A No. 20 Q Were there any other customers' plants who you 21 were assigned to visit where Monsanto would not sell 22 them the chemical unless you visited the plant? 23 A Yes. 24 Q What else? 25 A There were two incidences where we visited a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026122 20 1 processing operation and discussed the use of one of our 2 products. 3 Q What was that? 4 A PCB, or Aroclor in this case. 5 Q And who was that that you visited' to''"discuss 6 the use of Aroclor or PCB? 7 A I -- I can't recall the name of the companies. 8 I -- I even remember the -- the town one of them was in. 9 It was in Newark, Ohio. 10 Q Newark -- 11 A -- Ohio. 12 Q -- Ohio. 13 A And it was one of the fiberglass companies. 14 Q Do you remember anything about the other one? 15 A .It was a floor tile company. 16 Q Do you remember where it was located? 17 A No. I have just don't recall. 18 Q In the floor tile, the PCBs were used as a 19 plasticizer? 20 A That was the request. We turned them down. 21 Q So they sought to become a customer of Monsanto 22 for PCBs to put into floor tile? 23 A That is correct. 24 Q And before you would sell it to them, you went 25 and you inspected their facility? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026123 21 1 A Yes. 2 Q And after inspection, you concluded it would be 3 wisest not to sell it to them? 4 A That is correct. 5 Q About when did that visit take place? _ 6 A I have -- I don't even believe I could decade 7 it. 8 Q Okay. 9 A I probably -- well, that's conjecture. 10 Q Give me what you were going to tell me about 11 what you think would be the most probable time frame. 12 MR. JONES: If you can, Mr. Garrett. 13 If you can't, tell him. 14 A ' 60's. 15 BY MR. LACEY: 16 Q What about the fiberglass company? What were 17 they going to use the PCBs for? 18 A As a component of an adhesive to make preformed 19 insulation, pipe insulation. 20 Q They were going to make an insulation for pipe? 21 A Preformed pipe insulation. 22 Q This went around a particular type of pipe? 23 A That's right. You could buy it now. You could 24 buy it 40 years ago. 25 Q Who made that prod- -- that type of product? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. 4~"- STLCOPCB4026124 22 1 Who were the companies that were in that business p 2 A The insulation companies, pr ima rily. 3 Q Were people like Owens-Cor ning and folks like 4 that in that busi ness? 5 A Yes. . . - 6 Q And you don't recall wheth er th at plant was the 7 Owens- - - Owens-Corning plant? 8 A No. 9 Q Did you sell them the PCBs f or that use? 10 A No. 11 Q Do you r ecall when that was? 12 A No. 13 Q Can you even decade it? 14 . A Probably the '601s. 15 Q .Why. was it that you chose -- Mo nsanto, I 16 mean -- chose to inspect this fiber glass com pany plant 17 in Newar k, Ohio, before considering sell ing them PCBs? 18 A It was a new use. 19 Q And what did that have to do wi th the issue of 20 inspecting it? 21 A In a new use of a product that required special 22 handling , we wanted the manufacturer to show us h ow he 23 would handle it. 24 Q Monsanto considered PCBs a product that 25 r equired special handling? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026125 23 1 A Indeed, they did. 2 Q What was the proposed handling method at this 3 fiberglass company plant? 4 A The material was a liquid adhesive applied to 5 fiberglass baths. The baths were then put on molds or 6 frames and baked. 7 It was our opinion that the baking process 8 produced, for the oven operators, excessive fumes. 9 Q So your conclusion was that the way in which it 10 would be used would present an occupational health 11 hazard to the employees of the proposed customer? 12 A That was the only reason I was there. 13 Q Did you recommend to this company ways in which 14 you thought that this problem could be resolved so that 15 they could become a customer? 16 A I told them if they wished -- they made no 17 comments at the time. I told them if they wished, to 18 calle me; and they did not. 19 Q Do -- you indicated to them you would make some 20 suggestions that might make it acceptable to be a 21 customer ? 22 A No. I told them I would discuss it further 23 with them if they wished. I was in no position to make 24 recommendations to how they modified their mechanical 25 system of handling it. That's for consulting engineers NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026126 24 1 and engineers that do that kind of design. 2 Q In the case of Monsanto itself and the plants 3 you visited, would you give recommendations on how to 4 modify a process in order to reduce the dangers from 5 exposure to PCBs? -- 6 MR. JONES: We're talking about these 7 two plants? 8 MR. LACEY: No. I'm talking about 9 Monsanto plants. 10 MR. JONES: Oh. 11 A In Monsanto plants? 12 BY MR. LACEY: 13 Q Yes, in Monsanto plants. Let me make the 14 question clear. 15 In Monsanto plants, would you make 16 recommendations about how to change your process in 17 order to reduce the hazards to Monsanto employees? 18 A Yes. 19 Q But since this was not a Monsanto plant, you 20 were not prepared to make those recommendations to this 21 customer ? 22 A No. 23 Q No, that's correct; or yes -- 24 A Yes, that is correct. 25 Q Okay. You couldhave, in fact, made stich NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026127 25 1 recommendations. You would have been qualified to, in 2 other words. Is that correct? 3 A The recommendations that would have been -- had 4 had to have been made there would have been engineering, 5 and that is not my forte. -- 6 Q I see. 7 A I am not an engineer. 8 Q Did Monsanto have on its staff industrial 9 hygienists who did have expertise in engineering? 10 A No. 11 Q Okay. 12 A We had them, but not at that time. 13 Q All right. When did Monsanto first get on its 14 staff industrial hygienists who had expertise in 15 engineering? 16 A In the 17 0 ' s. 17 Q Do you recall who the first industrial 18 hygienist was that Monsanto hired who had expertise in 19 engineering? 20 A Dr. CarlBohl. 21 Q Now, what was the proposed use at the floor 22 tile company? 23 A I don't recall that fully. That was -- it just 24 is one of the those things that I don't recall well. I 25 don't recall that one. - ~" NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026128 26 1 Q Whatever.it was, it was one that you decided 2 should not result in a sale of PCBs to that customer. 3 Correct? 4 A That is correct. 5 Q And wa s the reason for tha t tha 6 con cerned th at the way in which the cust 7 use i t mi ght pr esent a hazard to its own 8 wor ked w ith the product? 9 A That is correct. 10 Q Do you recall the nature of the hazard that you 11 thought would exist for the employees of the floor tile 12 company in the way they proposed to use PCBs? 13 A No, I really don't. 14 Q Do you recall whether it involved elevated 15 temperatures or not? 16 A No. 17 Q Who assigned you to go and inspect these two 18 proposed customers? 19 A I was told by my immediate superior -- in this 20 case, E. P. Wheeler -- to do it. 21 Q That's Elmer Wheeler? 22 A That's right. 23 Q Do you know who -- strike that. 24 Did Monsanto have an expressed policy which 25 required that an industrial hygienist, examine the plant NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026129 27 1 of any proposed customer prior to selling them PCBs? ' 2 A On a policy base for new uses, apparently they 3 did. But I am not privy to that information. 4 Q And at no point in your career did you ever 5 learn what the policy of company might be, except by 6 making some assumptions from what happened? 7 A I knew the policy of department I worked in; 8 and the policies connected with -- with association with 9 customers was not my forte, and it varied. 10 Q What was the policy of the department in which 11 you worked about visiting a facility of a proposed PCB 12 customer before authorizing the sale to them? 13 A I really don't know, other than the fact that 14 if I were told to do that by my superior and who I was 15 to accompany, I went. 16 Q Okay. Who went with you on this visit to the 17 Newark, Ohio, plant, if anyone? 18 . A Somebody was with me, yes. It was Paul 19 Benignus. 20 Q Why did Mr. Benignus go with you? 21 A I haven't the vaguest. 22 Q Did he have any expertise to lend with regard 23 to industrial hygiene? 24 A No. 25 Q What did he do while you were exaraini-ag the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026130 28 1 proposed customer's facility there in Newark, Ohio? 2 A I really don't recall. 3 Q Did you observe anything he did on the trip? 4 A Yes. " 5 Q What did you observe himdo? 6 A We went to the office of the company, the two 7 of us together; and they took us out to the -- this 8 purchasing area and showed us their pilot operation. 9 And -- and to the best of my -- I can't remember 10 exactly; but to the best of my knowledge, Paul was 11 there. 12 Q Did he have any input in your decision not to 13 sell the PCBs to them? 14 A I would assume so, but I do not know from my 15 own personal opinion -- recollection. 16 Q Did somebody go with you on the visit to the 17 floor tile company? 18 A I don't recall. 19 Q With the exception of the parathion and the 20 PCBs, were you ever assigned by Monsanto to visit any 21 other customers' facilities where they had not requested 22 that you come in and inspect them? 23 A Not to my recollection. 24 Q So the only chemicals that you are aware of 25 that Monsanto required that a company- industrial NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026131 29 1 hygienist perform an inspection of a proposed new plant 2 use were PCBs and parathion. Correct? 3 A That I knew about, yes. 4 Q Was your area of practice as an industrial 5 hygienist restricted in any to particular chemi-eal 6 products that Monsanto made, or did it cover all the 7 chemical products that Monsanto made? 8 A It covered the Monsanto plants, all Monsanto 9 plants. 10 Q And -- 11 A Consequently, all Monsanto products. 12 Q Okay. So you weren't limited to just working 13 with chemicals like parathion and PCBs? 14 A No. 15 Q .You had some experience through going to the 16 different plants and observing the processes with all 17 the chemicals -- 18 A Yes. 19 Q -- that Monsanto made. What plants of Monsanto 20 made PCBs? 21 A The Anniston, Alabama, plant and the plant in 22 Sauget, Illinois. 23 Q Is that the Krummrich plant? 24 A That is the W. G. Krummrich plant. 25 Q And is Sauget, Illinois, directly across the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026132 30 1 river from St. Louis? 2 A From the St. Louis waterfront, yes. 3 Q Did you have anything to do with the Monsanto 4 plant, joint venture plant, in Japan that made PCBs for 5 a period of time? .. 6 A No. 7 Q Did you have anything to do with the Monsanto 8 plant in the United Kingdom that made PCBs? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Did you ever visit that plant? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Could we add that one, then, to the list of 13 plants that made PCBs -- 14 A Oh, excuse me.You're right. I'm sorry. Yes, 15 it was made in Europe. 16 Q And what was that plant, if you recall? 17 A I -- we have two plants that manufactured 18 organic chemicals there, and I can't tell you which one 19 it was. I think it was Newport, but I'm not sure. 20 Q Okay. 21 Now, are you aware of the fact that through a 22 joint venture -- and I guess it would be what you 23 referred to as a subsidiary -- Monsanto manufactured 24 PCBs in Japan? 25 A To be perfectly honest, no, I wasn't aT?are of NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026133 31 1 it. 2 Q Okay. That's fine. I won't bother to go into 3 it, then. You never visited any -- any Monsanto 4 facilities or joint venture or subsidiary facilities in 5 Japan? . . ,-- 6 A No. 7 Q Okay. Now, when did you first visit the 8 Anniston, Alabama, facility where PCBs were made? 9 A Probably in an early part of my career in 10 St. Louis, but I can't conjecture beyond that. 11 Q When did you first visit the Krummrich plant? 12 A I was taken by my superior, Elmer Wheeler, to 13 both the St. Louis plants -- in fact, all three of the 14 St. Louis plants -- the first week I was here. 15 Q Okay. So you would have visited the 16 Krummrich -- the Krummrich plant right off the bat? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Did you go to the Krummrich plant from time to 19 time in carrying out your duties as an industrial 20 hygienist for Monsanto? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Did you go to the Anniston, Alabama, plant from 23 time to time the carrying out your duties as an 24 industrial hygienist for Monsanto? 25 A Yes.- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026134 32 1 Q When did you first visit the European plant 2 that produced PCBs for Monsanto? 3 A In the '601s. 4 Q How frequently did you visit that European 5 plant? 6 A Three times. 7 Q When was the last visit? 8 A In the 1 7 0 ' s. 9 Q How frequently did you -- did you visit the 10 Krummrich plant in connection with your duties as an 11 industrial hygienist for Monsanto? 12 A Frequently. And -- and I would be conjecturing 13 if I gave you a number. 14 Q Okay. Would it be on the order of once a year, 15 or once a month, or once a decade? What would 16 "frequently" be, just by general order of magnitude? 17 A Four to five times a month, probably. 18 Q Would you go to the same section of the plant 19 each time? 20 A Not necessarily. 21 Q I mean, would that be a -- a -- a plant visit 22 where you might show up anywhere? Is that the type 23 of -- 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026135 33 1 How frequently would you visit the Anniston, 2 Alabama, plant? 3 A Again, it would be conjecture. Three times a 4 year, maybe; four. ' 5 Q Why was the Anniston, Alabama, plant., v-i si ted 6 less frequently than the Krummrich plant? 7 A It has less processing units and less problems 8 connected with those units and those processes. 9 Q Would you -- strike that. 10 Was there some mechanism of assignment within 11 the Medical Department whereby within a particular 12 plant, like the Krummrich plant or the Anniston plant, 13 you were responsible for certain processes going on 14 there and someone else in the department was responsible 15 for other processes in that same plant? 16 A No. 17 Q Did you frequently inspect the PCB-producing -- 18 and I guess Aroclor would be maybe what it was called in 19 the plant -- the Aroclor Department at the Krummrich 20 plant? 21 A You'd have to define "frequently." No, not -- 22 it was not a target processing unit, necessarily. 23 Q What were the target processing units at the 24 Krummrich plant? 25 A Those manufacturing very hazardous maTerials NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026136 34 1 such as the sulfur chloride compounds and those sort of 2 things. 3 Q How frequently did you visit these sections of 4 the Krummrich plant that manufactured these sulfur ' 5 chloride compounds? .. 6 A Probably every time I was there. I can't 7 absolutely guarantee that. 8 Q How frequently did you visit the section of the 9 plant that produced Aroclor? 10 A That would be difficult, and it would be 11 conjecture. A lot of it would occur if they asked for 12 some specific reason, and they very infrequently asked. 13 Q Well, would it get a visit every once in a 14 while, even uninvited? 15 A .Yes. 16 Q How often would you make uninvited visits? 17 A At least once a year. 18 Q Okay. Was it a -- a rule that every section of 19 every plant get a -- an inspection by an industrial 20 hygienist at least once a year? 21 A The rule changed through the -- you're talking 22 history of 35 years. The rules changed. As we grew in 23 staff, we shortened those -- those requirements. 24 Q What was the rule initially when you came on 25 board? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026137 35 1 A We set up the procedure to do it every year on" 2 the larger plants. And here again, this was based on 3 the number of processing units. 4 Q Was the Krummrich plant in the once-a-year 5 category? 6 A Yes. 7 Q What category did the Anniston, Alabama, plant 8 fall into? 9 A It would probably be a kind of an interim 10 between the one-a-year and once every two years. 11 But, again, looking at 35 years, the change 12 that took place and the processing units that were added 13 there made it a target for one-a-year operations. 14 Q Okay. As the plant grew larger? 15 A As the plant produced -- began to produce the 16 parathions. 17 Q The Krumra- -- I'm sorry.The Anniston, 18 Alabama, plant? 19 A The Anniston, Alabama, plant; yes. 20 Q Were there already in place in both the 21 Krummrich plant and the Anniston plant PCB units when 22 you started your employment as an industrial hygienist 23 for Monsanto? 24 A To the best of my knowledge, yes. 25 Q When you first visited the European plant, were NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4026138 36 1 the PCB-producing units already in place? " 2 A I do not recall. 3 Q Do you recall whether there were any 4 substantial changes to the PCB processes at the 5 Krummrich plant after you started being industrial 6 hygienist for Monsanto? 7 A You'd have to rephrase the question. What kind 8 of changes are you talking about? 9 10 (At this point in the deposition, 11 Mr. Crawford entered the deposition room) 12 13 BY MR. LACEY: 14 Q Well, anything that would affect the potential 15 hazard to the workers at the plant. I don't mean an 16 expansion in the unit size, for example, that wouldn't 17 affect whether or not workers might be exposed in the 18 line. 19 A Not to my knowledge. 20 Q Were there any changes in the plant operations 21 at the Anniston, Alabama, plant after you started your 22 career as an industrial hygienist for Monsanto that 23 changed the potential hazards to workmen in any way? 24 A No, not that I recall. 25 Q When you made your first inspections-f the PCB NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4026139 37 1 or Aroclor Departments at the Krummrich plant, did you 2 find the precautions provided there for the Monsanto 3 workmen to be acceptable? 4 A Yes. I may have tuned their attention ' 5 slightly; but yes, it was principally against..-the 6 exposure to chlorine. 7 Q And you found the practices to be acceptable? 8 A Yes. 9 Q What tuning of the practices did you make at 10 the Krummrich plant? 11 A Through the years, we studied proper protective 12 clothing, the penetration tests for gloves and aprons 13 and special clothing. 14 We studied the process operations, individual 15 operations, later and made recommendations for 16 individual operators based on their operating 17 classification. In other words, if it was a Class A 18 Operator, we made a specific requirement that a Class A 19 Operator who operated the chlorinators did certain 20 things. 21 Q So you broke it down into an evaluation of 22 individual jobs within the unit? 23 A Individual jobs. 24 Q Had that previously been the case when you 25 started as an industrial hygienist for Monsantir? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026140 38 1 A It had been started by Mr. Wheeler. 2 Q But had not been carried to conclusion, I take 3 it? 4 A No. 5 Q When you first visited the Anniston, Alabama, 6 plant, did you find the worker protections there to be 7 acceptable to protect the Monsanto employees working in 8 the Aroclor or PCB unit? 9 A Yes. I found them -- them -- them adequate. 10 Again, we tuned those, as well, later when we had better 11 facilities; some of the rapid analytical equipment, the 12 squeeze-bulk-type equipment and so forth, but -- but 13 basically the same. 14 And in both plants they also manufactured 15 chlorine, and those handling rou- -- procedures were 16 pretty much routine for chlorine-handling operators. 17 Q So in both plants, what you and Mr. Wheeler did 18 from the time that you started in the Medical Department 19 basically constituted fine tuning? 20 A In -- yes, and in studying all changes of an 21 engineering nature that took place in the plant, in the 22 process unit itself, through the years; and making 23 recommendations in the design stage of those processes. 24 Q Were there any process or design process 25 changes in the Aroclor units at the Krummrich plant? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026141 39 1 A They -- it -- it would be impossible to sort 2 that out. I went to two or three of these type of 3 meetings, frequently, a week. 4 Q You just don't recall? ' 5 A No, I do not recall. -- 6 Q What about in the Anniston plant? Would that 7 be -- 8 A Same deal. 9 Q Okay. 10 A If a whole new process was being built, it 11 would be different, and I might remember it. But in -- 12 in additions and changes, no. 13 Q Can you describe for me whatprotections were 14 provided to the workmen in the Aroclor unit at the 15 Krummrich plant when you joined the Medical Department? 16 A The Krummrichplant had procedures inplace 17 that represented plantwide procedures that were 18 occasioned by the other products manufactured in that 19 plant and handled in joint facilities for storage and so 20 forth. So their procedures represented a basic plant 21 procedure, with the overlie of the procedures to handle 22 chlorine and the finished products. 23 This was different at Anniston. 24 At Krummrich they were provided company 25 clothing. They were given rubber boots on calT"wherever NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4026142 40 1 it was needed. They were provided respirators. 2 Self-contained breathing apparatus was available in the 3 process units, and they were trained to use them. They 4 were provided gloves, and the operators who handled 5 drums were provided with aprons. They were provided 6 with the usual coffee pot. 7 MR. JONES: Just so that I understand 8 what you're saying, are you saying that 9 that is plantwide, or are you saying -- is 10 that just Aroclors? 11 THE WITNESS: The total bundle of 12 protection at the processing plant at 13 Krummrich represented the requirements for 14 the chlorine and the PCB exposures in that 15 . processing unit, plus what was required by 16 the plant; because the plant manufactured 17 a number of highly toxic substances other 18 than what was manufactured in that 19 processing unit. This was not true at 20 Anniston. 21 BY MR. LACEY: 22 Q So at -- at Krummrich you had some things that 23 everybody in the plant got? 24 A That is correct; everybody in that area of the 25 plant. Now, these were areawide, and the plant was NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026143 41 1 large enough so that it was managed on an area basis. 2 Q Okay. Were there any of the protections that 3 were provided to Monsanto workers in the Aroclor 4 Department at the Krummrich plant that everybody in the 5 plant got? -- 6 A You're talking 35 years now. What portion of 7 the 35 years? 8 Q Well, I'm -- 9 A The early part? 10 Q We can break it down. Let's just take the 11 1950's to start with. 12 A In the 1950's, a number of departments in the 13 Krummrich plant got company-owned clothing. 14 Q Did all departments in the pi ant -- 15 A No. 16 Q -- ge t that? 17 A No. 18 Q Okay. 19 A In the 1970's, all departments got it. 20 Q Okay. Now, in the 1950's, did the Aroclor 21 Department get companywide clothing? 22 A Yes. 23 Q So they -- the Aroclor Department had the 24 companywide or -- I'm -- strike that. 25 So the Aroclor Department had the company NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026144 42 1 clothing before that became a plantwide provision? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q In the 1950's, were there any worker 4 protections provided to the employees in the Aroclor ' 5 Department at the Krummrich plant that everybo-dy in the 6 plant got, other than the coffee pot, I guess? 7 A The -- the program required that they be -- 8 that they be provided with and trained in the use of the 9 protective clothing needed for the their job. 10 Now, keep in mind that the pro- -- that the 11 largest industrial hygiene hazard in that process was 12 chlorine. They were provided with the necessary 13 short-term masks; and the unit was provided with the 14 necessary self-contained breathing apparatus, so-called 15 SCBAs. They were contained in compartments alongside 16 the processing vessels themselves. And -- 17 Q Did everybody in the plant have that? 18 A No. 19 Q Okay. Well, I'm trying to find out right now 20 what, if anything, was provided to the workers in the 21 1950's in the Aroclor Department at the Krummrich plant 22 that everybody in the plant got, I guess except for the 23 coffee pot, if everybody in the plant got the coffee 24 pot. 25 A And the physical exam, which we absolutely NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4026145 43 1 insisted on. 2 Q Okay, And what was the frequency of that 3 physical exam? 4 A It -- it varied, and you'd have to check on the 5 individual plants. It was presumed to be on the- basis 6 of every one to two years. 7 Q So in the '50's, the only thing that was 8 companywide at the Krumrarich -- I'm sorry -- that was 9 plantwide at the Kruramrich plant was the physical. 10 A And -- oh, the -- the -- I'm sorry. The hard 11 hats -- 12 Q Okay. 13 A -- and the -- the glasses and cover goggles 14 were available to all employees, as were certain types 15 of gloves, ad -- ad lib. They could go get them from 16 the supply place. They must wear the glasses, the -- 17 the helmets; and in certain areas, they must wear the 18 cover goggles over the glasses. 19 Q Okay. And those things were available at some 20 type of dispensary there in the plant to everybody 21 who -- 22 A Yes. 23 Q -- wanted them? 24 A And, in fact, it was a firing offense -- it was 25 a disciplinary offense not to have the gog- --"'the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026146 44 1 safety glasses, the helmets, and hard- --hard-toed 2 shoe s. 3 Q So an effort was made to enforce the rules by, 4 if necessary, terminating the employees. ' 5 A That is correct. . . .... 6 Q Now, let's go to the 1960's. What things -- 7 and I assume that we'd still have, of course, the things 8 you just mentioned: the hard hat and the safety goggles 9 and steel-toed shoes -- but what things were supplied -- 10 actually, were the steel-toed shoes supplied, or that's 11 just what a person bought to wear? 12 A It -- it varied. At first, you had to have 13 them; and at first, you paid a little for them. And 14 then I don't know when they stopped. When I was in -- 15 originally in the first plant I was in, I paid half the 16 price for them. Later they were -- 17 Q Free? 18 A ------ provided by Monsanto free. 19 Q Okay. 20 A And that occurred in the '50's. 21 Q Okay. In the 1960's, what additional things 22 were supplied the Krumrarich plant on a plantwide basis 23 as a part of worker protection? 24 A Well, I --I can't say specifically the date; 25 but at some point in time, either in.the '60's~or the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026147 45 1 very early '70's, the whole plant got company-owned 2 clothing. 3 Q All right. And did this mean that they got a 4 fresh suit of clothes each day? 5 A I don't know. You'd have to ask the Safety 6 Department at the plant. They did in -- in certain 7 areas, yes. 8 Q Did the people in the PCB Department get a 9 fresh suit of clothes each day? 10 A To tell you the truth, I don't know. 11 Q Was that clothing provided to them to use so 12 they could take it home and have it cleaned and bring it 13 back, or was it a fresh suit of clothes that the company 14 took care of for them? 15 A .It -- it depended on the department. 16 At first -- and, again, my memory would -- does 17 not serve me well in respect to when the clothing was 18 issued to the man and he could take it home, and when it 19 was picked up and laundered commercially by the company. 20 Certain departments, the clothing was issued 21 each day and was picked up each day and laundered by a 22 commercial laundry. As that expanded, it was one -- an 23 evolutionary affair; ultimately, the entire plant. 24 Q And you do not recall whether the PCB 25 Department was from the outset one of those wh-exe the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4026148 46 1 clothing was issued each day and laundered each day by 2 the company? 3 A All I know is that when I first went over 4 there, they had company clothes. Now, what particular ' 5 scheme they were on, I do not recall. . . .... 6 Q All right. Did each employee have his own 7 changing place and locker and thelike? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And was that available on a companywide basis 10 when you first went there? 11 A Yes. 12 Q What else wasadded in the 1960's or that 13 general-time frame, if you can recall, on a companywide 14 or a plantwide basis at the Krummrich plant? 15 A .In the '60's, I -- a -- a -- a very excellent 16 new change house and handling procedure went into effect 17 with a very new change house; had much, much bigger and 18 more responded facilities for showers, and each operator 19 in many of the departments got double lockers and that 20 sort of thing. But I can't recall exactly when that 21 occurred. 22 Q What do you mean by "double lockers"? 23 A They had a street clothes locker and a -- and a 24 company clothes locker. 25 Q Well, what's the purpose of a double "locker? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026149 47 1 A To keep the -- the company clothes and the 2 street clothes from intermingling. 3 Q And why would that be important? 4 A In some cases, it would be important for the 5 protective clothing if they had aprons and so forth. 6 You don't want to get anything on the clothing. 7 Q You don't want anything that's on the -- the 8 aprons to get off on the street clothes. Is that -- 9 A That is true. In many cases and in many 10 departments, that was important. 11 Q Was that double locker system provided in the 12 PCB Department? 13 A I don't recall. 14 Q Were there enough shower facilities when -- 15 strike that. 16 Before the new shower facility was built in the 17 1960's, were there enough shower facilities for everyone 18 to take -- 19 A Yes. 20 Q -- a shower? 21 A But they were scattered. 22 Q And then they were centralized in this new 23 building later? 24 A That's true. 25 Q Did everybody in the plant get company*time to NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026150 48 1 take their shower? 2 A I don't know. That's a plant labor relations 3 issue, not -- certain toxic problems required it. 4 Q Do you know whether or not the PCB or Aroclor ' 5 Department at the plant was one where that was-a part of 6 the safety program? 7 A I don't re call. 8 Q What changes took place in the 1970's where 9 additional things were provided on a company- or a 10 plantwide basis at the Krummrich plant? 11 A I don't know that additional stuff was 12 provided. The -- the only thing is that you had an 13 improvement in the proc- -- in the equipment that was 14 available, improvement in glove construction, 15 improvement in aprons, improvement in respirator 16 cartridges, and so forth. And that was kept up with by 17 the Krummrich plant Safety Department. 18 And by the '70's, the Krummrich plant had an 19 industrial hygienist on their plant staff. 20 Q Do you recall who the industrial hygienist on 21 the Krummrich -- 22 A Clarence Buckley was the first one. 23 Q Clarence Buckley? 24 A Clarence Buckley. 25 Q And how long was he theindustrial hygienist NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026151 49 1 for the Krummrich plant? 2 A Till he retired. And I can't tell you when 3 that was. 4 Q Did his retirement precede yours? 5 A Yes. . .-- 6 Q I -- I take it from what you're saying that in 7 certain respects, the specific details of exactly what 8 precautions were being taken for worker safety in a 9 particular department of the Krummrich plant is 10 something that you don't have a specific recollection 11 on, but would be more within the province of plant 12 people or -- and subsequently even the industrial 13 hygienist at that plant? 14 A Subsequently, yes. Our principal job was 15 training, the Safety Department and later, when 16 industrial hygienists became available, them, in respect 17 to their individual plants. 18 Keep in mind that we manufactured 1800 products 19 in some -- at one time, 47 different plants; and it was 20 difficult for me to recall all those plants, although I 21 went through every one of them. 22 Q Were any of the departments at the Krummrich 23 plant identified as being particularly toxic? 24 A You're going to have to define what you mean by 25 "toxic" or "hazardous." . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026152 50 1 Keep in mind that certain th ings are - - that -2 that a -- a stone migh t be toxic if y ou ground i t and 3 dissolv ed it and fed i t it. If it, h owever, is -- is -- 4 has a h igh vapor press ure a nd can be released i n -- in " 5 an -- i n an atmosphere or i n a circum stance w.h-ere it can 6 get ins ide a per son's bo dy, either th rough the 7 respira tory tract, thr ough the digest ive tract. or 8 through their intact s kin. then it be comes a ha zard. 9 And we measur ed ou r programs connected with the 10 hazards asso ciated. 11 Q Well, my ques ti on really is: Were the re 12 specifi c departments w i thin the Krumm rich plant that 13 were associated as bei ng pa rticularly toxic or 14 particular -- particul arly hazardous? 15 A There were departm ents that were more haz ardous 16 than other departments, yes. 17 Q And were they so designated at the plant? 18 A They -- the -- the plant Safety, Industrial 19 Hygiene, and the management knew that -- those 20 departments where the potential for hazard was the 21 highest. 22 Q I guess what I'm asking: Was there any 23 particular designation assigned by Monsanto to 24 departments within the Krummrich plant saying, for 25 example, "This department is a department tha~deals NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026153 51 1 with a toxic chemical"? ~ 2 A That would depend on the product they made, or 3 the raw materials they used, or both. 4 Q Well, okay. But I take it, then, there were 5 some departments that were so designated and others that 6 were not. 7 A Yes. 8 Q Do you know whether or not the Aroclor 9 Department at the Krummrich plant was designated as a 10 toxic department? 11 MR. JONES: I'm going to object to 12 the question again. I believe his earlier 13 testimony was that they measured by 14 hazardous, not by toxic, but -- so -- 15 BY MR. LACEY: 16 Q Let me -- let me just clear that up. 17 The designation that was given within the 18 Krummrich plant about toxic departments was to refer to 19 them as a toxic department, was it not? 20 A Uh-huh. 21 Q You need toanswer verbally. 22 A Yes. 23 Q And the word "toxic" was the word that was 24 used, wasn't it? 25 A The word they used was "toxic."__ NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026154 52 1 Q Yes. Now, was the Aroclor Department at " 2 Krummrich plant a toxic department? 3 A In the old -- in the old "toxic" 4 differentiation, I'm not sure. It was a .1 5 chlorine-handling department; and as such, it was a 6 hazardous department. And I could care less what they 7 stamped on the front door. 8 Q You don't recall whether or not the Aroclor 9 Department was -- 10 A No, I do not. I do not. 11 Q Okay. . 12 Now, let me ask you -- we've been talking about 13 the precautions at the Krummrich plant throughout our 14 discussion here. I want to switch to the Anniston, 15 Alabama, plant. Are you with me on that? 16 A (Witness nods head up and down.) Yes. 17 Q At the Anniston, Alabama, plant, what 18 differences were there in the protections provided by 19 Monsanto to its workers in the Aroclor Department as 20 compared with the protections provided by Monsanto to 21 its workers in the Krummrich Aroclor Department? 22 A I don't recall, of my own recollection, 23 anything. 24 Q Fine. Your recollection at -- at this point is- 25 that workers in the Aroclor Department at Anniston, NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026155 53 1 Alabama, would have had exactly the same type of 2 protections that workers in the Aroclor Department at 3 the Krummrich plant had? 4 A They would have had protection, yes. 5 Q Okay. And so everything that we've said about 6 the Krummrich plant would also apply equally to the 7 Anniston, Alabama, plant. Correct? 8 A To the best of my knowledge, yes. 9 Q Do you recall what provisions, if any, were 10 made in the European plant for workers working in the 11 Aroclor Department there? 12 A No. 13 Q So you do not recall whether they would be 14 similar to those provided at the United States plants? 15 A No. I don't recall. 16 Q Were there any other Monsanto plants that you 17 recall handling Aroclor products besides the one in 18 Europe and the Anniston plant and the Krummrich plant? 19 A Yes. 20 Q What other plants handled Aroclor products? 21 A Virtually all of the plants used Aroclor in 22 their transformers by requirement because of the fire 23 problems. 24 Q That was a Monsanto requirement? 25 A It was a requirement of the insurance^ NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026156 54 1 carrier's, as I recall. -- 2 Q So Monsanto's insurance carrier said, "Use 3 transformers having PCBs in them"? 4 A To limit possible fire hazard, yes. 5 Q Separating out having a plant that had a 6 transformer in it with PCBs in it, what plants, if 7 any -- other than the European plant, the Krummrich 8 plant, and the Anniston plant -- actually worked with 9 PCBs as a product that the workers were working with as 10 part of Monsanto's production? 11 A The J. F. Queeney plant in St. Louis. 12 Q And what happened there? 13 A They blended some of the fluids. 14 Q Were the workers at the Queeney plant who 15 worked in the Aroclor Department there provided with 16 like protections to those in the Aroclor Departments at 17 the Krummrich plant and the Anniston, Alabama, plant? 18 A No, because they did not handle chlorine. 19 Q I see. And what precautions were provided to 20 the workers at the Queeney plant? 21 A Necessary clothing, gloves; and a good, tough 22 training program. 23 Q Did they have respirators available? 24 A Yes. 25 MR. JONES: Did any of that~_vary over NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026157 55 1 a period of time? I -- I just want to try to get a - 2 time - 3 MR. LACEY: Now, Bob, if you want to 4 ask questions, why don't you do that when. 5 I get through? 6 MR. JONES: Well, then, I object to 7 the question as being vague, because it 8 doesn't establish a time period. 9 MR. LACEY: Fine. 10 BY MR. LACEY: 11 Q In the 1950's, were PCBs being handled at the 12 Queeney plant? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Were the workers there provided with company 15 clothing? 16 A I don't know. 17 Q Were they provided with rubber boots on call? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Were they provided with respirators? 20 A On call, yes. 21 Q Gloves? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Aprons? 24 A Yes. 25 Q A coffee pot? NELL MC C/ LLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026158 56 1 A They had a coffee pot. 2 Q In the 1960's, were the workers at the Queeney 3 plant provided with the company clothing? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Rubber boots? 6 A The whole spread. 7 Q The whole spread? 8 A The whole spread. 9 Q What did the workers at the Queeney plant in 10 the 1950's not have in the Aroclor Department at Queeney 11 that workers at the Krummrich plant had in the Aroclor 12 Department there? 13 A A different set of instructions because of the 14 handling, and they did not have the facilities necessary 15 for chlorine resuscitation and that sort of stuff. 16 Other than that, the same. 17 Q So, with the exception of having a different 18 set of instructions because they were involved in a 19 somewhat different process -- 20 A That is precisely correct. 21 Q -- and the exception of not having whatever you 22 use to resuscitate someone from chlorine gas, because 23 there wasn't any chlorine gas there, the precautions 24 were identical? 25 A That's right. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026159 57 1 Q Was that also true in the 1960's? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Was that true in the 1970's? 4 A Again, you're looking at eras in which they 5 faded out of some of th ese businesses. They took the 6 old T-Building down tha t had some of these facilities i n 7 them because it was old and -- and was renovated. And 8 this sort of evolutiona ry thing went by, and I don't 9 recall the exact dates. 10 Q That's fine. 11 A But to the deg r ee that they handled and 12 manufactured the fluids CO ntaining Ar odor s. yes. 13 Q Okay. That -- I think that answers the 14 question I had. 15 And to summarize, then, if I understand it, the 16 only thing that the workers at the Queeney plant didn't 17 have by way of protection in their Aroclor Department 18 that was available at the Krummrich plant in their 19 Aroclor Department were the things that were totally 20 irrelevant because it wasn't a manufacturing process 21 there. 22 A That's true. 23 Q In fact, the Queeney plant merely blended 24 different Aroclors together. Is that correct? 25 A With other blending agents, yes. _ NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026160 58 1 Q Was that done at elevated temperatures? 2 A Slightly. 3 Q Were the temperatures in the Aroclor Department 4 at the Queeney plant substantially lower than the - 5 temperatures in the Aroclor Department at the Krummrich 6 plant? 7 A In -- I -- I -- we're getting into chemical 8 processing now. 9 The -- in -- the use of heat in the Aroclor 10 Departments at Queeney was to make it easier for them to 11 blend. The heat that resulted in the Aroclor 12 Departments at Krummrich and was heat-exchanged was the 13 heat generated in the process itself in the chlorination 14 of biphenyl. 15 Q .But my question simply is: Were the Aroclor 16 workers in the Queeney plant dealing with products at a 17 significantly lower temperature than the workers in the 18 Aroclor Department at the Krummrich plant? 19 MR. JONES: Object to the question on 20 the term "significantly" as being vague. 21 BY MR. LACEY: 22 Q Do you have a problem with that? 23 A The problem is this: The -- the temperatures 24 in handling the finished fluid were the same. The 25 temperatures in -- where they manufactured it were NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026161 59 1 different, because the temperatures were the result of 2 the manufacturing process -3 Q I understand. 4 A -- that way. 5 Q And the effect of that was that in the Aroclor 6 Department at the Krummrich plant, one found chlorinated 7 diphenyl as it was coming out of the manufacturing 8 process at a significantly higher temperature than it 9 was ever at in the Queeney plant. Correct? 10 A In the front -- in the manufacturing end of the 11 process. The rest of the process was all the same. It 12 was air-stored. 13 Q I understand. 14 A Yes. 15 Q Once you got it cooled down -- 16 A That's right. 17 Q -- it was cooled down to the same temperature? 18 A This is direct. 19 Q But when the PCBs actually came out of the 20 manufacturing column where -- 21 A They were hot. 22 Q -- the diphenyl was chlorinated, they were 23 considerably hotter than they ever were at the Queeney 24 plant. Correct? 25 A I don't know how much hotter. They were NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026162 60 1 hotter. - 2 Q Okay. And the exact temperature, you don't 3 know ? 4 A No, I do not. 5 Q When one was using Aroclor at an elevated 6 temperature, that gave you more cause for concern as an 7 industrial hygienist? 8 A Studying the vapor pressure curves and the 9 operating temperature of its use, yes. 10 Q In fact, that was one of the reasons that you 11 did not approve of permitting this Newark, Ohio, 12 facility to buy PCBs, because they were going to be 13 baking it. Correct? 14 A No, that is not fully correct. 15 Q .1 see. 16 A They were going to be pyrolyzing it in part. 17 Q I see. And pyrolyzing it implies adding heat, 18 does it not? 19 A To destructive levels, yes. 20 Q What's the problem with pyrolyzing PCBs? 21 A You're back to chlorine. 22 Q Okay. 23 A Actually, in this case chlorine and HC1 and a 24 whole host of short-chained fragments, which would be 25 chlorinated organic fragments. ^ NELL MC CAlLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026163 61 1 Q What do you mean by a "chlorinated organic 2 f ragment"? 3 A If you take a product, PCBs or anything else, 4 and ran the temperature up high enough to completely ' 5 pyrolize it -- that means to destroy it by .heat- 6 oxidation -- you would get C02, HC1, and C12. Most 7 likely, that would be -- and probably some water vapor, 8 H20. Okay. 9 But if you pyrolyzed it at lesser temperatures 10 or times, you would get the intermediate products of -- 11 from the Aroclor itself to all these completely final 12 products. And they could be all kinds of pieces and 13 bits of chlorinated organic compounds. 14 Q Things like chlorinated dibenzofurans? 15 A .The -- no, because you're talking about 16 destructive pyrolysis. And the dibenzofurans, if they 17 were there, were in -- were destroyed along with the 18 Aroclor. 19 Q No, I'm talking about this process where you 20 have pyrolysis, but incomplete pyrolysis. Would that 21 lead to the formation of chlorinated dibenzofurans? 22 A That would be conjectural, but it's possible. 23 Q Chlorinated dibenzodioxins? 24 A Probably not. 25 Q I see. So your thought process is that in this NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4026164 62 1 incomplete pyrolysis, one might find the formation from' 2 PCBs of chlorinated di be nz of ur ans , but not chlorinated 3 dibenzodioxins. Correct? 4 A I don't know. I've never seen any data that - 5 says one way or the other. . 6 Q I see. 7 Did you, in your function as an industrial 8 hygienist for Monsanto, concern yourself with 9 by-products that would be made in the manufacturing 10 process? 11 A We looked at the manufacturing process as a 12 producer of a product. That product then was our 13 concern. If the product had some special or specific 14 hazard associated with it, we needed to know it and 15 utilized it to frame proper protective facilities and 16 for additions to our literature covering the handling of 17 that product. 18 Q I don't think I asked my question very well. 19 apparently. 20 In the process of manufacturing a chemical 21 where you set out to make a particular chemical like 22 PCBs, you oftentimes encounter a situation where, even 23 though you don't set out to do it, you wind up making 24 some other chemicals along the way; what I might call 25 contaminants. Isn't that correct? -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026165 63 1 A It -- it's possible, but not very probable in ~ 2 this process. 3 Q I see. Did the Medical Department of Monsanto 4 ever give any consideration to whether or not it needed % 5 in its program for protecting its workers to determine 6 whether or not there were any by-products or contaminant 7 or undesired chemicals that were made in the process? 8 A Not to my knowledge. 9 Q Do you know whether or not there were any such 10 chemicals manufactured in the process? 11 A Not to my knowledge. 12 Q To your knowledge, there were not? 13 A There were not. 14 Q Okay. Are you aware of any processes at 15 Monsanto.where you did find a problem of these 16 by-products or contaminants being made along with what 17 the process was designed to make? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And was it as important -- was it important to 20 you as an industrial hygienist to be knowledgeable of 21 what those contaminants or by-products were and how 22 their presence might affect the hazards posed by the end 23 product which contained those? 24 A Yes. 25 Q By-products like that can, even in sm^ll NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4026166 64 1 quantities, render the mixture with which they're in 2 more toxic than it would otherwise be. 3 MR. JONES: I'll object to the 4 question, unless you get a little bit mor-e 5 specific as to what you mean by 6 "contaminants." 7 BY MR. LACEY: 8 Q Well, by "contaminant," Mr. Garrett, I mean any 9 chemical that is made while you're trying to produce a 10 particular chemical. 11 To give a good example, Monsanto made a 12 chemical known as 2,4,5-T, did it not? 13 A They did. 14 Q And one of the contaminants that can be made in 15 the process of making 2,4,5-T was dioxin, was it not? 16 A No. Specifically, no. 17 Q I see. 18 A Chlorodioxins, yes. 19 Q Okay. Well, that's fine. I -- I'll accept 20 your definition. 21 The chlorodioxins that were made while you were 22 trying to make 2,4,5-T were not a product you were 23 seeking to make. Correct? 24 A No. That is correct. 25 Q And, therefore, we could refer to th^se NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026167 65 1 chlorodioxins as a contaminant, could we not? - 2 A That's correct. 3 Q Okay. Now, my question, in having gotten 4 "contaminant" defined so we can understand it: With a 5 process where, in addition to making what you want to 6 make, you make something else along with way that's a 7 contaminant, the contaminant may, depending on its own 8 toxicity, make the entire product that contains the 9 contaminant considerably more toxic than it would 10 otherwise be. Isn't that correct? 11 A It's a concentration issue. It's a -- it's 12 a -- it's a factor of concentration, yes. 13 Q But if, for example -- and let me see; I don't 14 know -- I -- I'm sure I can't come up with any example 15 that's a real chemical example, but -- I guess I'll use 16 one that's real silly. But if we were making water - 17 and I know you wouldn't do that, but let's just assume 18 I'm making water in a chemical plant; that's what I'm 19 setting out to do -- and along the way in the process of 20 doing it, I make 100 parts per million of some very, 21 very toxic chemical, that might make the whole thing 22 very hazardous, even though water by itself would be no 23 problem. Correct? 24 A Probably true. . 25 Q Okay. And that type of problem can e&ist and NELL MC CA_LUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026168 66 1 does exist in the chemical manufacturing business in . 2 numerous processes, does it not? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And that's something that's of importance to . 5 the industrial hygienist who's trying to protect workers 6 from health problems in dealing with or being exposed to 7 chemicals. Correct? 8 A That is something that would influence all of 9 the production facilities and the company itself, 10 because the company has no desire nor any wish to harm 11 any of its employees -- 12 Q All right. 13 A -- or its customer'semployees. 14 Q Now, let me ask you about other types of visits 15 that you,made to plants. You mentioned earlier that in 16 some cases, or you alluded earlier to the fact that in 17 some cases you were invited into customers' facilities. 18 Is that correct? 19 A That is correct. 20 Q Under what circumstances would you be invited 21 into a Monsanto customer's facility? 22 A Where they wanted information from us 23 concerning programs, where they wanted information from 24 us on how to handle products that we already handled. 25 Q And was that a service that Monsanto .provided NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026169 67 1 to its c:ustomers as the man uf acturer and seller of 2 chemical s to them? 3 A Ordinarily not. It -- I went into very f ew 4 customer plants in re spe ct to looking at anythin g. I've 5 been in many of them to tal k to them and talk, -t-o thei r 6 peopl e. but -- you -- I -- it 's surprisin g how f ew 7 customer plants I've act ually inspected. 8 I've talked to their people and they've 9 explaine d to me some of their processing and ope rations, 10 and I've explained to th em some of ours. But as far as 11 viewing them is conce r ne d, very few. 12 Q Well, did yo u t urn d own requests from c ustomer s 13 to come in and look at their plants and help them? 14 A I didn't turn them down, no. 15 Q Are you aware of any such requests -- 16 A No. 17 Q -- being turned down? 18 A No. 19 Q So my question still is, then: Was that a 20 service that Monsanto provided to its customers on their 21 request? 22 A A regular service provided, no. Did we do it? 23 I assume we would have and could have. 24 Q And, in fact, did? 25 A Well, we may have and -- at very, very* few NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026170 68 1 t ime s . 2 Q Well, you did that on a few occasions, did you 3 not ? 4 A That would be hard to say. I don't -- unless 5 they were Monsanto companies or Monsanto subsi-diaries, 6 or we had contractual obligations with them, two 7 reasons: One, we probably would not have been invited, 8 had they been a competitor in any way; and. No. 2, that 9 our time was so -- stretched so thin on our own 10 processing operations and the safety of our own people 11 that it would have been very difficult to do it. 12 Q Well -- 13 A I don't recall bei ng in a customer's plant, 14 Q Okay. Well, let m e just ask that very -- a 15 very clear question: Do yo u recall visiting any 16 customer -- Monday customer 's plant while you were an 17 industrial hygienist for Mo nsanto? 18 A I don't recall. 19 Q And let me be very specific: Did you ever 20 visit any f a -cilities of the TVA? 21 A No. I visited the ir offices on a number of 22 occasions. 23 Q But not in their f acility? 24 A Not in their facil ity. 25 Q Did you ever visit any Westi.nghouse facility? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026171 69 1 And, again, I'm not talking about the offices; I'm 2 talking about in the plants. 3 A No. 4 Q Did you ever visit any Ford facility? And, 5 again, I'm talking about in the plants; not in_,,.the 6 offices. 7 A No, but I've been in Dearborn in the offices, 8 as you might imagine. 9 Q I'm sorry? 10 A I've been in Dearborn in the offices of Ford. 11 Q So you have no firsthand knowledge about what 12 conditions existed in any facility operated by 13 Westinghouse? Is that correct? 14 A That is correct. 15 Q You have no firsthand knowledge about the 16 conditions that existed in any facility operated by 17 Ford? Is that correct? . 18 A That is correct. 19 Q And you have no firsthand knowledge about the 20 conditions that existed in any facility operated by the 21 TVA. Is that correct? 22 A That is correct. 23 Q Okay. Now -- 24 MR. JONES: Let's take a break if 25 that's a good breaking point. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026172 70 1 MR. LACEY: It's really not. Let me 2 go ahead and finish up this line of 3 que stions. 4 BY MR. LACEY: 5 Q With regard to visits to the offices,af ' 6 companies, what visits, if any, did you make to Ford 7 offices? 8 A I -- I was in the Ford office in Dearborn, and 9 I was there to talk to their hygiene people, and I -- 10 their Hygiene Director about something, and I can't 11 recall what it was about. And I can't recall who it was 12 at the time. 13 Q Do you recall whether it had anything at all to 14 do with any product sold by Monsanto that contained 15 PCBs? . 16 A I don't think so, but I'm not sure. 17 Q If it did, you can't recall the details of it? 18 A I cannot recall the details. 19 Q Did you make any visit to the offices of the 20 TVA? 21 A Yes, in -- in Chattanooga only. That's their 22 technical offices, as you know. 23 Q And what was the purpose of that visit? 24 A Pollution control. 25 Q Specifically what was it that was the~-pollution NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026173 71 1 problem? 2 A We were trying to put a plant on one of their 3 lakes. 4 Q Put a plant -- - 5 A We were building a plant on one of tha. TVA 6 reservoirs. 7 Q And you wanted to use their cooling water? 8 A No. We wanted -- we were going to treat the 9 waste; but we had a discharge that we were going to 10 make, and we had to clear with the State of Alabama 11 Water Improvement Authority and the TVA technical 12 pollution people in Chattanooga. 13 Q So the only discussions you had with the TVA in 14 their offices was about getting their approval for some 15 effluent.discharges that a Monsanto plant was going to 16 make? 17 A That is correct. 18 Q Tell me about office visits with Westinghouse, 19 if any. 20 A I don't believe I've ever -- I don't even know 21 where their offices are. I think they're in Pittsburgh, 22 but I'm not even sure of that. 23 Q So it is your recollection you never made an 24 office visit to any Westinghouse facilities. 25 A No. --~ NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026174 72 1 Q Is that correct? - 2 A No. That is correct. I -- I have not. 3 Q Okay. 4 MR. LACEY: If you want a take a 5 break right here, we can take a -- a what? 6 A five-minute break? 7 MR. JONES: That's fine. 8 9 (Recess) 10 11 THE VIDEOTECHNICIAN: Okay. We've 12 been off the record for a short break. 13 We're now back on the record. The time is 14 5:13 p.m. 15 BY MR. LACEY: 16 Q Who was Dr. D. S. Weddell, W-e-d-d-e-1-1, if 17 you know? 18 A I don't recall, if I know -- ever knew. 19 Q Mr. F. T. Marshall: Do you knowwho that was? 20 A Not -- not -- I've -- I know someMarshalls, 21 but that -- don't -- shouldn't -- shouldn't 22 necessarily -- I don't recall. 23 Q Who was E. Mather,M-a-t-h-e-r? 24 A The name - 25 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, you've.-jgot a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026175 73 1 document there. Why don't you show it to' 2 him? Maybe it will help him. 3 A The name strikes a chord, but that's all. 4 BY MR. LACEY: .`~ 5 Q Well, let me show you a document. I'm. really 6 trying to identify names; but since Mr. Crawford wants 7 me to let you look at it. I'll do that. 8 Let me show you a document that's dated 9 December 17th, 1951, written by E. Mather, apparently to 10 P. J. C. Heywood, with copies to a number of people here 11 (tendering) . And does that help you identify who 12 Mr. Mather is? . 13 MR. CRAWFORD: What's the number on 14 that document at the bottom? 15 THE WITNESS: 048767. 16 A I don't recall. This is before I came to -- 17 even came to work at the Medical Department. 18 BY MR. LACEY: 19 Q I see. 20 A Mather -- no. I don't recall. 21 Q Okay. 22 Let me show you a memo dated November 14th, 23 1955, Document 38968 (tendering), and ask if that's a 24 memo that you authored. 25 A Yes. I wrote it.*-- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026176 74 1 Q Is that your signature on it? 2 A It is, indeed. Yes, it is. 3 Q Was that a memo that you had stamped 4 "Confidential"? I note that one is stamped 5 "Confidential." . 6 A I didn't stamp it "Confidential." I have no 7 idea who did. 8 Q Okay. 9 MR. CRAWFORD: Are you going to ask 10 him about it? 11 MR. LACEY: Yeah, I sure am. I'm 12 going to ask him some questions about it. 13 BY MR. LACEY: 14 Q In this memo signed by you, it talks about the 15 opinion of the Medical Department. Is that the way that 16 you a customarily wrote memos that had to do with 17 matters of worker safety; to say it was the Medical -- 18 A If it was, in fact, the opinion of the Medical 19 Department more than just myself. 20 Q If it were -- 21 A If it was just me, I would say, "In my 22 opinion." 23 Q Okay. So this particular memo was more than 24 just your opinion; it was the opinion of others in the 25 Medical Department NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026177 75 1 A That is correct. 2 Q -- as well? 3 A That is correct. 4 Q Who else shared the opinions set forth in that"- 5 memo with you? __ 6 A I would suspect it was Doc- -- it was Elmer 7 Wheeler, but -- because he was my immediate boss. But I 8 can't -- I can't really -- it's too long ago. 9 Q Were memos like that not sent out unless they 10 were first approved by some superior? 11 . A No. 12 Q No, they were not sent out; or no, they -- 13 A No. Dr. Kelly and his group -- many times I 14 would ask him about them; but in his group, he trusted 15 our testimony judgment and allowed us to choose 16 our selves. 17 Q Okay. 18 HR. LACEY: May I see it, Walter. 19 MR. CRAWFORD: Oh, yeah; sure 20 (tendering). 21 BY MR. LACEY: 22 Q The recommendation of this memo is that eating 23 of lunches should not be allowed in the Aroclor 24 Department of the Krummrich plant (tendering). Is that 25 correct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026178 76 1 A Yes. '~ 2 Q What was the customary practice there at the 3 Krummrich plant with regarding -- with regard to workmen 4 eating their lunches? t 5 A Eating in thecontrol room. 6 Q In the plant? 7 A In the processing plant, yes. 8 Q How long did people have for lunch at the 9 plant, if you recall? 10 A I think there was -- that the -- the time was 11 allotted as -- as 30 minutes. But you would have to ask 12 the plant, because there's so many different plants and 13 so many different rules and so many shift break times 14 that it's the plant's own necessity. 15 Q Where were people to eat if they didn't eat in 16 the control room of the unit where they worked? 17 A They had -- the -- the Krummrich plant had a 18 full-size cafeteria. 19 Q And the thrust of this memo, then, is that 20 while it may be okay in certain departments to eat in 21 the control room, and that's not what you recommend 22 prohibiting, you do specifically recommend prohibit 23 eating in the control room of the Aroclor Department? 24 A Ye s. 25 Q That -- NELLMC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026179 77 1 A I also later on said, "It's long been the ' ' 2 opinion of the department that eating in process 3 departments is a potentially hazardous procedure that 4 can lead to serious difficulties." 5 My personal opinion is that it was bad 6 practice. 7 Q Generally? 8 A In any processing place, yes. 9 Q This memo, however, specifically addressed 10 itself to the Aroclor Department. Correct? 11 A That1s true. 12 Q Now, was this a -- a directive that would be in 13 force, or is this just a recommendation which could be 14 accepted or rejected by the plant people as they saw 15 fit? 16 A We directed this to the Medical -- the Safety 17 Director (indicating), with a copy to the Plant Manager 18 (indicating) 19 Q Well, did you all have the authority to enforce 20 that or not, or did -- 21 A Dr. Kelly did -- 22 Q Okay. 23 A -- if he wanted to. 24 MR. CRAWFORD: What do you mean by 25 "enforce"? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026180 78 1 BY MR. LACEY: 2 Q Well, you -- let me -- let me try to clarify 3 i t. 4 A We would go through the normal channels. 5 Q Yeah. You simply state here it's .the-opinion 6 that it shouldn't be done, but -- 7 A That's right. 8 Q It doesn't say, "Stop it.* It's -- it's sort 9 of a polite way of saying, "We would sort of recommend 10 you don't do this," and wait and see what happens. Is 11 that the normal channel? 12 A Well, what it probably refers to is -- and 13 I'm -- this is conjecture -- it's just a -- there was a 14 letter sent to us about something, or a question 15 answered. 16 A Requesting whether or not -- 17 A And this is -- this is an answer to it. 18 Q You -- you would suppose that -- that somebody 19 asked you, "Is it okay to eat in the lunch -- eat lunch 20 in the control room?" 21 A Probably. 22 Q Okay. And you set forth three reasons. You 23 say there are a number of reasons, but you specifically 24 set forth three reasons why you think it would be a good 25 idea not to eat in the control room. Correct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026181 79 1 A Uh-huh. 2 Q And if I understand correctly, the first reason 3 is that the food that would be eaten could become 4 contaminated by the Aroclor vapors. Correct? ' 5 A Could be con- -- become contamina.ted ..by Aroclor 6 vapors, yes. 7 Q And what you're talking about there is as 8 the -- as the sack lunch or whatever it is, the lunch 9 bucket, sits there in the control room from the time the 10 fellow comes on the shift until he eats it, the vapors .11 in the process could seep in and actually cause amounts 12 of PCBs to be deposited on the food products that would 13 subsequently been -- be eaten. Correct? 14 A It's -- it -- it -- lunches which normally were 15 brought to the plant were normally brought in the metal 16 boxes -- 17 Q Right. 18 A -- the old black box. Individual operators 19 would store them near their work site. 20 Q Right. 21 A There are some work sites in -- in most 22 Purchasing Departments, that would not be an intelligent 23 place to do that. That is what we're really saying. 24 Q But what I'm -- what I'm asking about at this 25 point is that the route of concern you're talking about NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4026182 80 1 here is that the vapors would reach the lunch itself, 2 land on the materials, and the n the fellow would eat h i s 3 sandwich and would have some P CBs on it. Correct? 4 A Could, in some areas, The -- the chlorinator 5 operator could store his lunch box on the chlorinator. 6 Q No problem? 7 A He could do it? Very- -- it wouldn't be very 8 intelligent, but he could do i t; because if there were 9 an accident that released any chlorine or any vapors, it 10 would certainly not do his lun ch any good. 11 Q Okay. The particular concern you're talking 12 about here is the Aroclor vapo r, though. Right? 13 A We're talking about v apors in the process. I 14 think you probably would mean Aroclor vapors, yeah -- 15 Q Okay. 16 A -- and other process -- Aroclor vapors and 17 other process vapors. 18 Q Okay. 19 A Yes. 20 Q And it would not be a good idea for a workman 21 to eat a lunch that had had some of those vapors deposit 22 some of the Aroclors on it. Correct? 23 A No, it would not. 24 Q And that's one of the reasons, therefore, that 25 you recommend they not be allowed to eat lunches in the NELL MC CA_LUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026183 81 1 departme nt? 2 A That is correct 3 Q The second reason you point out is that ther e' s 4 also the possibility of contaminating the hands w i th the 5 PCBs or Aroclor material s, and then co ntamina ting the 6 food. Correct? 7 A That is correct 8 Q And what you're talking about there is a f el low 9 is worki ng with the PCBs , and they get on his hand, h e 10 picks up his sandwich, they get on the sandwich, and he 11 eats it and ingests some of the PCBs. Correct? 12 A It's possible. Not probable; possible. 13 Q Well, actually. you say it's a definite 14 possibil ity. Isn't that the words you used? 15 A For it to get there. But he' s not going to eat 16 much of it. 17 Q Why is that? 18 A Oh, it don't ta ste good. 19 Q Okay. You didn 't want to rely, however. on the 20 fact that he would -- 21 A No. 22 Q -- recognize by the bad taste -- 23 A NO. 24 Q -- that he shouldn't eat any more? 25 A No, we did not want to rely o n that. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026184 82 1 Q Were you concerned that even in the small 2 quantities that might escape his taste buds, it could 3 present a problem? 4 A We were more concerned about the general ' 5 principle of eating in a process control room-in an area 6 that handled hazardous materials, in our view, 7 throughout the Queeney -- the Krummrich plant. And if 8 you'll read the last paragraph, you will see this is the 9 thin end of a much larger wedge. We finally got the 10 wedge driven through. They do not eat in the process 11 units any more. 12 Q Sure. Now, in the third area -- you've already 13 talked about the fact that you didn't like people eating 14 in the process units at all, which is the third reason 15 you cite. 16 You state in the second sentence, regarding 17 your own experience on the hazards of Aroclor. Correct. 18 And talking about your own experience, you're talking 19 about Monsanto's experience. Is that correct? 20 A It's a potentially hazardous procedure, it says 21 here clearly. 22 In all of my 35 years, I never heard of or saw 23 an Aroclor case, so I don't know. 24 Q Okay. What I'm -- what I'm trying to find out 25 about is in a sentence which says, "While the "Ttroclor s NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4026185 83 1 are not particularly hazardous from our own 2 experience" -- that's the first clause in the 3 sentence -- that's talking about Monsanto's experience 4 of not having anybody make any claims about being hurt 5 from Aroclors. Correct? ... 6 A You're talking about the third paragraph now -- 7 Q The third paragraph, that second sentence. It 8 says, "While the Aroclors are not particularly" -- I 9 can't read upside down from this distance very well. 10 A It says, "While the Aroclors are not 11 particularly hazardous from our own experience" -- 12 Q Right. 13 A -- "this is a difficult problem to define 14 because early literature work claimed that chlorinated 15 diphenyls are quite toxic materials by ingestion or 16 inhalation." 17 Q Now, what I'm trying to find out about is: 18 When you say, "While" -- I need to look it at it here, 19 so I can read it correctly -- "While the Aroclors are 20 not particularly hazardous from our own experience," 21 what you're talking about is that Monsanto employees 22 have not made a lot of claims based on exposure to 23 Aroclors. Correct? 24 MR. CRAWFORD: Object to the form of 25 the question. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026186 84 1 A That is not -- that is -- is really not -- 2 that's a piece of it. 3 BY MR. LACEY: 4 Q Okay. Well, what -- what is it -- do you mean"5 by that? 6 A In terms of lost time on workers in the Aroclor 7 Department. 8 Q Okay. 9 A Periods. 10 Q And doesthat meanthat you have had people who 11 have been exposed to a significant amount of Aroclors 12 without ill effects? Or does that mean that because of 13 your protective procedures, you've been able to 14 substantially minimize any exposure to Aroclor? 15 A I would hope that itwas the latter, but I 16 can't say that. 17 But keep in mind, this memo is written with 18 a -- you can easily see the hook in it. It isn't 19 very -- very well hidden. We wanted them to quit 20 allowing people to eat in the processing departments in 21 the Krummrich plant. It was a plant that handled a 22 great number of hazardous materials. We did not want 23 them eating there. We wanted them to eat -- either eat 24 in the -- in the provided facilities or in provided 25 eating rooms. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026187 85 1 Q Did you wri t e a similar memo t o thi s on -- t 2 every oiher section of the plant at the same time you 3 wrote this one? 4 A If you look e d at enough memos. you pr obably ; 5 int- - - intimations to every plant, ev e ry processing 6 department in the pi ant 7 Q Well, I hav en' t seen any o ther memos -- 8 A No? 9 Q -- like thi s. This is the only one I 've see: 10 A It was -- i t was a part of one of the pressu 11 we exe rted on the pi ant s to prevent -- to -- to -- to 12 stop a potentially h aza rdous proced ur e, in our view. 13 was one of our jobs. 14 Q Okay. And one of the things that you though 15 was appropriate from the industrial hygiene standpoint 16 was to separate the eating of food from the area in the 17 plant where Aroclors were being manufactured? 18 A And many other products, yes. 19 MR. LACEY: Can I see this again? 20 MR. CRAWFORD: Are you going to ask 21 some more questions (tendering)? 22 MR. LACEY: Yes. 23 MR. CRAWFORD: All right. 24 BY MR. LACEY: 25 Q In -- at the last part of this seconcfsentence NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026188 86 1 talking about, "While Aroclors are not particulary 2 hazardous from our experience," you go on to say that 3 "This is a difficult problem to define because early 4 literature work claimed that chlorinated diphenyls were ' 5 quite toxic materials by ingestion and inhalati.on. " 6 What literature are you referring to there? 7 A Oh, I haven't the vaguest. It's late. 8 Q Was that a reference to specific literature, or 9 was that something you just threw in to make your 10 argument stronger? 11 A A ploy, you mean? 12 Q Yes. Was it true or not? 13 A They could trace it. It probably was true. 14 But this -- you're asking me to remember a memo from 32 15 years ago. 16 Q WW< ell, I underst 17 A AA]nd I don't rem 18 Q SS' ure. I don't 19 cites. BBuu't in view of w 20 tryiinngg to :find out wheth 21 you were telling the truth or you were throwing that in 22 with -- 23 A I think -- I -- I don't think I would carry a 24 ploy that far. It was probably the truth. I probably 25 the seen some data or some literature, but I che not NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026189 87 1 recall it. 2 Q Okay. Was it part of your job to from time to 3 time review literature on chemicals that Monsanto made? 4 A It was my job as an industrial hygienist to ' 5 virtually continuously preview the literature. xonnected 6 with the handling of chemical materials. And when you 7 hit one that we handled, we -- those were priority 8 items. 9 Q When you came into the Medical Department in 10 1953, was part of your training to go back and look at 11 existing literature on chemicals that you already made? 12 A In most cases then, the -- the -- the -- a lot 13 of the literature was already available in the files in 14 the Medical Department. 15 Q I guess what I'm asking is: Did you go back 16 and look at the files on literature predating 1953 after 17 you came on board in the Medical Department? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And that'show you would know about what 20 literature before 1953 had to say about the hazards of 21 Aroclor s? 22 A I wouldpresume that. 23 Q Okay. 24 The last sentence says, "In any case where 25 workmen claim physical harm from any contaminated NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026190 88 1 food" -- and you're talking there about food ~ 2 contaminated with Aroclors. Correct? 3 A Considering the previous sentence, yes. 4 Q You said that "In any case where workmen - 5 claimed physical harm from any contaminated food, it 6 would be extremely difficult on the basis of past 7 literature reports to counter such claims." Uh-huh. 8 Q Was that a true statement when you made it? 9 A Probably so. 10 Q Okay. And you believe -- 11 A To the best of my knowledge, it's true; yes. 12 Q Okay. 13 Let me show you a Document No. 018731 through 14 018737, entitled "Toxicology and Safe Handling of 15 Monsanto Aroclor" (tendering), and ask if you've seen 16 that document before. 17 A Yes. 18 Q When did you first see that document? 19 A It or its predecessor or successor, throughout 20 my experience in Monsanto during the period in which we 21 manufactured Aroclors. 22 Q Okay. Who put out that document? 23 A Originally? 24 Q Yes. I -- who -- who put it together? 25 A I do not know. I'd have to see the dates on NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026191 89 1 this specific document to tell. 2 Q Well, feel free to look for the dates and tell 3 me about it. I've been asking everybody I've talked to 4 when it was dated. 5 A . (Reviews document.) .. 6 I don't know. But there were -- the -- this 7 particular bulletins were available when I went to work 8 at the Medical Department, or a form of that bulletin 9 was always available in some form, with corrections, 10 through the years; additions, subtractions, and so 11 forth. 12 Q Well, let me make sure I understand your 13 testimony. Are you t elling me that a document like 14 this. Document 18731 through 18737 (tendering), was 15 available in the Medi cal Department of Monsanto at about 16 the time you started to work there in 1953? 17 A The document or a similar document was 18 available to us from the people who prepared it. We did 19 not. 20 Q What role did the Medical Department have in 21 supplying information to other people within the 22 Monsanto organization about the toxicology and safe 23 handling of Monsanto Aroclor? 24 A Dr. Kelly's responsibility covered the problems 25 connected with medical -- that's symptomatology. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026192 90 1 treatment, first aid -- toxicology, industrial hygiene. 2 And those sections that reflected on those functions, 3 the Medical Department reviewed or were allowed to 4 review for all bulletins, this one as well as others. 5 Q Well, now, this bulletin is a little--bit 6 unique, isn't it? Because all it deals with is 7 toxicology and safe handling. 8 A No, it is not unique. 9 Q I see. How many documents were there at 10 Monsanto, how many different documents were there, that 11 dealt with -- solely with toxicology and safe handling 12 of Monsanto Aroclor? 13 A As far as I know, this document and its 14 predecessor and update versions dealt with that 15 subject -16 Q And there were -- 17 A -- toxicology of Aroclor and safe handling of 18 Aroclor. 19 Q And there were documents like this within 20 Monsanto from the time you arrived in the medical 21 department the 1953 at least through 1977? 22 A A similar document, yes. 23 Q That dealt exclusively with the safe handling 24 and toxicology of the product? 25 A Yes. We had many, many others coverilTg many. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026193 91 1 many other products. 2 MR. LACEY: I'm going to say on the 3 record I have haven't seen them. I've 4 been asking about them since December 5 26th, and I'd like to know where,,they are. 6 MR. JONES: Well, they may not exist, 7 David. 8 MR. LACEY: Well, this witness has 9 just sai d they do. 10 MR. JONES: Well, they may have at 11 one time . They may not exist now. 12 MR. LACEY: I see. 13 BY MR. LACEY: 14 Q There were other types of documents at 15 Monsanto, were there not, that dealt with products 16 generally and had small excerpts in them about 17 toxicology and safe handling. Correct? 18 A Summaries, yes. 19 Q Okay. 20 A Yes. 21 Q But you're telling me that in addition to those 22 types of documents, there were also documents like this 23 one we've just looked at devoted solely to the 24 toxicology and safe handling of Aroclor? 25 A There were documents like that devoted to the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026194 92 , 1 toxicology and safe handling of a number of other 2 Monsanto products, as well. 3 Q And there were also versions devoted solely to 4 Aroclor? 5 A That's true. _ 6 Q And those documents were kept within the 7 Medical Department of Monsanto? 8 A No. 9 Q Where were they kept? 10 A In the Marketing Department. 11 Q They were kept within the Marketing Department 12 of Monsanto - 13 A Uh-huh. 14 Q -- there in St. Louis, Missouri? 15 A Uh-huh. 16 Q Actually, we're here in St. Louis, Missouri - 17 A Uh-huh. 18 Q -- I guess, right now, aren't we? 19 A That's true. 20 Q And throughout the time you were there, these 21 types of documents existed? 22 A That is my recollection. 23 Q And those documents contained only the 24 information about toxicology and safe handling, and 25 therefore were documents that were approved by--the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026195 1 Medical Department before they were published. Correct"? 2 A That is correct; those portions specifically 3 attributed to the Medical Department's responsibility, 4 yes. t 5 Q Well, and if it dealt solely with toxicology 6 and safe handling, that was all within the Medical 7 Depar tment ? 8 A That is true, if it did -- truly dealt that 9 way. 10 Q Well, let me hand you this document and ask you 11 to review it briefly and tell me if there's any part of 12 that document that didn't fall within the province of 13 the Medical Department (tendering). 14 A Description. The introduction and description 15 is not our responsibility. Toxicology was. Skin 16 contact, first aid was. The -- the information here, 17 which is standard to these documents, is -- is.-- is 18 somebody else's responsibility (indicating). 19 Q Okay. So the only portions of this document 20 that were not the Medical Department's responsibility 21 were the lead-in section called "Introduction." Correct 22 (tendering)? 23 A ^.(Reviews document.) And "Description." 24 Q And what we have in the -- may I see it just a 25 second? - NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026196 94 1 A (Tendering.) 2 Q We have the introduction, which is a section 3 that says, "Aroclors, the registered trademark for a 4 range of chlorinated polyphenyls manufactured by 5 Monsanto. Manufactured in this country and have been 6 used in this industry throughout the world for over 30 7 year s." 8 Did Mon- -- did the Medical Department have 9 anything to do with -- 10 A No. . 11 Q -- that type of statement? 12 A No. 13 Q And said that they were synthetic chemicals, 14 and that the publication was intended to describe the 15 toxicity and provide guidance on the correct handling. 16 That -- those sentences were somebody else's? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q Then the description that specifically said 19 what the colors of them were, whether they were oils or 20 whatever: That wasn't yours? 21 A No. 22 Q But when you start with the section on safe 23 use, from there on everything is yours. Correct? 24 A That is correct. 25 Q Until you get to the very last sectio-a, which NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026197 95 1 says -- ' 2 A About five or six paragraphs. The -- the 3 document has an awful lot of blank pages in it, but 4 that's essentially correct. 5 Q Yeah. c 6 A We did the safe-handling information, the 7 toxicology information, the medical in- -- information 8 was our responsibility, wherever it appeared, whether it 9 was in that document or any other document. 10 Q Did you ever work on revisions or updates of 11 this particular document dealing with the toxicology and 12 safe handling of Monsanto Aroclor? 13 A We -- I worked on the revision of many, many, 14 many documents connected with the toxicity and safe 15 handling. I have no reason to believe I did not, nor do 16 I have any specific recollection of doing it. 17 Q Okay. What was the purpose of this document on 18 the toxicology and safe handling of Monsanto Aroclor? 19 What was it intended for? 20 A It was intended for the salespeople to use -- 21 and we used it, as well -- to send to people who queried 22 us connected -- in connection with handling of -- of the 23 material. 24 Q It was intended to go to customers? 25 A Principally. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026198 96 1 Q And one of the things that was important about 2 this type of literature was to not only give a customer 3 the information, but also to ensure that he put the 4 principles there into practice to protect his own 5 workmen. Isn't that correct? . 6 MR. JONES : I'd --I'd obj ect the 7 question . Again, you' r e mi scharac terizing 8 his test imony. H e sai d not only t o 9 customer s, but it wa s al so used by the 10 Monsanto people. 11 MR. LACEY: That' s fin e. I'm not 12 wor ried about the Monsanto people; I' m 13 talking about the oust omer s 14 MR. JONES: Well, to the exte nt that 15 you're b eing unfa ir wi th th e witne ss, 16 then -- 17 MR. LACEY: Well, let1 s le t' s -- 18 MR. J ON ES : -- I want to make tha t 19 point. 20 MR. LACEY: Well, fine . I'll try to 21 not be unfair to the witness. 22 BY MR. LACEY: 23 Q Mr. -- Mr. Garrett, the purpose this was put 24 together in the first place was to provide to customers, 25 wasn't it? . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026199 97 1 A It -- it was to provide users. And -- and that 2 would mean Monsanto and customers, yes. 3 Q The actual Monsanto employees got the bulk of 4 their information about the actual toxicology and safe ' 5 handling of -- of Aroclor products from the process 6 manuals and the like that were used in the actual units 7 where PCBs were made, didn't they? 8 A In -- in training courses, training the 9 operators themselves, and their monthly safety meetings 10 at which we participated many times. 11 Q This was put together in its nice finished form 12 with the nice covers and everything else because it was 13 designed to go to customers, wasn't it? 14 A I -- it -- it -- that would be difficult to 15 say. It was designed to go to users, and customers were 16 the primary users, plus the Monsanto internal. 17 We gave out many of these to other companies, 18 yes, and other companies' professional departments: 19 Technical -- this is -- and medical, industrial hygiene, 20 and so forth. 21 Q Within Monsanto, who did you give these to? 22 A Copies of this would go to the plant if there 23 was any information in there that was new. It would be 24 given to the plant for their use. I suspect they handed ~ 25 them out, as well. . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. ^ STLCOPCB4026200 98 1 Q To whom? ~ 2 A Well, most plants kept copies -- kept records 3 and -- and information to give to fire departments or 4 emergency equipment or vehicles that connected with q 5 operations that -- and accidents within the plant, 6 particularly fire -- so that the fire crews -- because 7 we almost always had a mutual agreement with the local 8 fire department as a backup, and we didn't want the 9 firemen to get hurt, either. And this information was 10 available to them. 11 In fact, a great deal of it was provided also 12 to fire departments all over the country at their 13 request. 14 Q Now, in the Precautions section that shows up 15 on Page 18734 -- you see this section right here 16 (indicating)? 17 A Yeah. 18 Q -- that very clearly is written with the 19 intention of going to someone who is responsible for the 20 way in which workmen are handling the materials, but 21 who's not himself a workmen, isn't it? 22 A I don't know. I don't know whether the 23 work- -- I think the workmen could pretty well 24 understand that. I mean, it's blunt and across the 25 board. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026201 99 1 Q Do you see down at the bottom there in all 2 caps - 3 A Uh-huh. 4 Q -- after the last listed precaution? 5 A Ye s. .. 6 Q It says, "YOU HAVE READTHIS." 7 A I don't see where -- 8 Q Right here (indicating). "YOU HAVE READ THIS. 9 DOES THE MAN ON THE JOB KNOW HOW TO HANDLE THESE 10 PRODUCTS?" 11 A I presume they -- the -- if -- if the -- the 12 ma- -- ma- -- if the material was available in -- in a 13 customer's plant, for example, that the customer plant 14 people could read it as well, if they were literate. 15 Q Well -- 16 A The -- the -- the -- it probably was directed 17 at their management and their -- their -- probably their 18 foreman and/or their unit supervisor. 19 Q That's my point. This was written for 20 management-type people; and the reason that's in there 21 in all caps is to cause them to think about making sure 22 that that information gets to the people who actually 23 work with the product, isn't it? 24 A I would assume that's true. 25 Q And that's important in providing warnings or NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026202 100 1 information or precautions on how to handle chemicals, 2 isn't it? 3 A Yes. 4 MR. JONES: Obj e ct to th 5 What -- w hat is impor tant? 6 MR. LACEY: Maki ng sure 7 i nf ormati on gets down to the 8 with it. 9 A That is correc t. 10 BY MR. LACEY: 11 Q No warning, no inf orm ati on is of a 12 unless it gets down to the guy that ' s wor ki: 13 chemicals, is it? 14 A That' s correct 15 THE VIDEOTECHNICIAN: Let's go off 16 the record to change the tape. 17 18 (Recess) 19 20 THE VIDEOTECHNICIAN: Okay. We're 21 back on the record after a tape change. 22 The time is 5:45 p.m. 23 BY MR. LACEY: 24 Q The section that starts on Document No. 18734 25 headed "Toxicology" contains some pretty detailed NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026203 101 1 information on specific studies that had been done about 2 what can happen from exposure to PCBs, does it not? 3 A Yes. 4 Q That type of detail is the sort of information 5 that would be very valuable to people who were in the 6 industrial hygiene or occupational safety business, 7 doesn'tit? ' 8 A If they understood toxicology, and the majority 9 of those that were educated did. 10 Q My point is: That type of information there 11 wouldn't be particularly useful to a person who is not 12 trained in toxicology or industrial hygiene, would it? 13 A Or medicine. 14 Q It would or would not be important to a 15 person --- 16 A It would be important to a person trained in 17 medicine or toxicology. 18 Q Yes. And so to make it clear, the information 19 under "Toxicology" in that bulletin -- which consists 20 of, I guess, about a page and a half or -- what is it? 21 Maybe a little bit less than that? 22 A Yeah, I think so. I think -- 23 Q A page and a half of information. -- is the 24 type of material that's meaningful to people who are 25 industrial hygienists, who are toxicologists, or who NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026204 102 1 have me di cal tr aining. Cor r e ct ? 2 A It i s correct . And it states after 3 "Toxicology" on a smal 1 line , it says, "The following 4 medical da ta i s given f or y o ur Health Department 5 records ft 6 Q Aga in, this - - that information is designed to 7 get to somebody at the manag ement level who can make use 8 of it. Cor r ect o 9 A It depends on what you mean by "management 10 1evel." 11 Q Well, a HealthDepartment. 12 A Yes -- 13 Q Is that a management - 14 A Yes. 15 Q -- level function? 16 A By professionals within their Health 17 Depar tment. 18 Q Okay. Now, let me direct your attention to the 19 last page of the document, 18737, where it has the 20 Mon- -- the big "M" for Monsanto and the -- and the 21 registered notation of the trademark. Next to that is a 22 public-- some publication information. Can you read 23 that address? 24 A It's a British publication. It's London 25 Southwest 1. That's our Monsanto house in London in NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026205 103 1 those days. 2 Q Did the people in. Lon don do a lot of printing 3 for do cument s you used in the United S ta te s ? 4 A No. We provided them with th e da ta. Th ey 5 pri nte d their own 6 Q So this document that was pri nte d in Engl and 7 was de signed what ; for use i n England? 8 A Yes, and Europe - 9 Q And -- 10 A -- where they shi pped it. 11 Q Okay . S o this do cume nt would go to customer s 12 of the English pi ant that manuf act ur ed Ar o cl o r s -13 A That ' s r ight. 14 Q -- whether they be in the United Kingdom or 15 whether they be in Sweden or France or wherever. 16 Correct? 17 A Or in the Commonwealth countries. 18 Q And the information that's contained in this 19 document was provided to them to print on their own 20 document by the Medical Department in St. Louis. 21 Correct? 22 A I -- I -- of my own free knowledge, I do not 23 know that; but it probably was. 24 Q Is that the way the -- the system was set up to 25 wor k ? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026206 104 1 A They would ask us for information. They would 2 gain their own from their own literature. If they found 3 any, they usually would send us copies of the same 4 literature so we could both have a full set of any ' 5 medical or toxicological data that reflected ,o-n the 6 hazard of the product. 7 Q Okay. So the document we've actually been 8 looking at here is one that the United Kingdom group 9 actually put out for use in Europe? 10 A That is correct. It is their assessment of the 11 literature and the necessity for their customer use. 12 Q Is there any reason that they would be 13 assessing the literature any differently than the people 14 in St. Louis would be assessing the literature? 15 A .1 don't think it is a -- necessarily an 16 assessment different than that. 17 Q No, I -- I didn't suggest there was. But -- 18 A No. 19 Q -- there shouldn't be any difference in the 20 assessment of the literature, should there? 21 A I couldn't say that, because I don't know what 22 they had available to them. 23 Q Well, Monsanto generally had available to it 24 literature worldwide, did it not? 25 A Well, again, it depends on the dates~Snd the -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026207 105 1 and the handling of literature. ' 2 I'm not sure -- we, for example, did not get 3 copies of some -- of many of the British medical 4 journals. They did not get copies of some of ours. 5 They're extremely expensive when you get them outside of 6 their own country. 7 So we took a -- a sampling of their medical 8 literature; and anything they picked up, we would expect 9 them to ship it to us con- -- in connection with this - 10 their Medical Director -- in this specific area, because 11 we manufactured it both places. 12 Q And you would do likewise? 13 A That would -- we would do likewise. 14 Q So they would have available to them all of the 15 United States publications on PCBs. Correct? 16 A I would assume so, but I certainly cannot -- 17 Q And -- 18 A -- swear to it, no. 19 Q -- if the system worked correct, you would have 20 in St. Louis all the British publications on PCBs. 21 Correct? 22 A I would hope so. 23 Q And that's the way it was supposed to work? 24 A That's right. 25 Q And is there any reason that the precautions ---------------------------------------------------;--- t------------------------------------------------------- ------------ NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026208 106 1 that would need to be ta ken with Aro cl or s pro duced in 2 the U. K. plant shoulc1 be any di f f er en t than the 3 pr e ca ut:ions to be taken with. Ar o cl or s pro duce d in the 4 Uni ted Stat es plants? 5 MR., CRAWFORD: Be s ur e you . Jcnow the 6 answer before you answer i s som ething tha 7 you know. 8 A I really don' t know . Is ther e a ny r eason -9 restate1 it. piease. 10 BY MR. LACEY: 11 Q Ye s. Is thei:e any reason to hav e di fferent 12 precaut ions or warnincjs for PCBs produ ced by Monsanto i 13 the Uni ted Kingdom than for PCBs pr odu ced by Monsanto i 14 the Uni te d States ? 15 A Di fferent people wr ot e them, and the different 16 people have diff erent vi ews and diff er ent feelings in 17 connection with that. They're differently trained. I 18 think they used -- 19 MR. JONES : Different circumstances. 20 THE WITNESS : What? 21 MR. JONES : Diff erent circumstances. 22 MR. LACEY: Why -- why don't you let 23 test ify, Robert? I -- I'm asking him 24 If you want to testify, we'll swear you in 25 sometime and ask you some questions. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026209 107 1 MR. JONES: I'll do the same for you. 2 A I really think if you -- if you would -- i 3 think the -- the -- the basic toxicity and handling 4 information, the basic handling, is on the label. . 5 And I think the labels, our labels and their 6 labels were somewhat different because the labeling 7 authorities were different. What they put out in their 8 support documents and what we put out in our support 9 documents had a lot to do with the agencies. But in no 10 case and no time would we ever, ever risk a person's 11 life or their job in this respect; no. 12 BY MR. LACEY: 13 Q Okay. My - 14 A Absolutely not. 15 Q My question, so it's clear: There wasn't any 16 difference between, however people viewed it, the 17 hazards of handling Aroclor made -- 18 A That's correct. 19 Q -- by the United Kingdom plant versus the 20 hazards of Aroclors made by the United States plants? 21 A That is correct. 22 Q It'sthe same chemical, the same hazards -- 23 A That is correct. 24 Q -- the same safe handling isrequired? 25 A That is right. _ NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026210 108 1 Q And the differences that exist between what 2 would have been said in the United Kingdom and what 3 would have been said in the United States, then, would 4 depend upon the fact that different people wrote them ' 5 and may have had different views on how to.expx.ess that. 6 Correct? 7 A And different support, based on the countries 8 in which they're marketed. It may have been required by 9 somebody's law. It may have been required that it be 10 viewed this way. 11 They may have viewed it this way from their 12 training, their formal training. If they had shipped 13 their Aroclor to this country, we would have marketed it 14 with our documents. 15 Q Okay. And what you're telling me is: To the 16 extent that this is written differently than whatever 17 was used in the United States, that difference may be 18 accounted in part by the fact that there were different 19 regulations applicable in the United Kingdom? 20 A Different customs, primarily. 21 Q Different customs? 22 A Yes. 23 Q What sort of customs are you talking about? 24 A Different basis in their training than ours, 25 different basis in their medical training than~T5urs; NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026211 109 1 th e f.act that th ey di d no t have i ndus;trial hy gieni sts 2 th ei r staff ov er there , a nd the f act that very 3 f r equently they would go to one o f the universities to 4 ge t i nf orma ti on, and that i nf orma ti on was different th, 5 ou r s. 6 It j ust was a di ff er ent way of presenting it. 7 It ' s ,a diff er ent empha si s 8 Q I see. 9 A It ' s tr ue today. 10 Q I see. Are they more or iented toward giving 11 v e ry thorou gh, 1 engthy di sc ussion s of what precautions 12 ou ght to be take n than we a re in the United States? 13 A Oh , my star s, ye s. 14 Q They ju st are mor e cauti ously oriented than 15 here. Correct? 16 A It would be unfair -- because I have very many 17 fine colleagues in Europe, but they're very -- they -- 18 they are much more scientifically inclined toward the 19 actual data itself, and that -- and where the data came 20 from, and whether the chicken had a left eye that was 21 black or white. 22 We were interested in -- in -- in boiling it 23 down for useful information for people who were handling 24 it. 25 So, in my opinion, the data that was -- that NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026212 110 1 was given by the British to their customers and by us to 2 our customers was the custom of the countries invol ved. 3 It covered the waterfront; but it was different cov era ge 4 because of the differences in their background, the 5 differences in the training of their physicians, th e 6 differences in the training of their toxicologists, and 7 so forth. 8 Q Was that -- 9 A That's my only point. 10 Q Was that also true with regard to the way in 11 which they gave precautionary information; that they 12 tended to be more complete in what they said? 13 A I -- I -- in my personal work with the Brussels 14 office, we had to provide information that was required 15 by a consortium of countries in the European economic 16 community. 17 And their labeling was different than ours, and 18 their -- they used -- they used symbols that were 19 different than ours because it was typically European. 20 For example, if we had put the data out first, they 21 would obviously have changed it just to say that it was 22 European. 23 Q Well, this document's written in good old 24 everyday English, isn't it (indicating)? 25 A Yes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026213 111 1 Q The first precaution, "Always wash well with ~ 2 soap and water before eating, drinking or smoking and -- 3 and at the end of work": There's nothing particularly 4 European about that directive, is there? . 5 A Yes, there is. It's an unnecessary directive 6 in that kind of document; because the document says the 7 damn stuff is toxic, and if you get it in you, on you, 8 or in your snoot, you're going to get a toxic response. 9 Q Okay. 10 A What do -- if you tell a person -- it's like 11 the guy that says, "The john is over there," or gives a 12 long explanation of how you open the door and unzip your 13 pants. I mean, it is -- the -- the same thing's going 14 to be done in that room, anyway. 15 And they just have a different way of 16 presenting it. I wouldn't change their way, because 17 their people are used to that procedure. 18 Q We in the United States are accustomed not to 19 getting those sort of detailed instructions. like 20 "Always wash, well with soap and water before eati ng. 21 drinking or smoking and at the end of work." Is that 22 A We have -- 23 Q -- what you're saying? 24 A -- often given those - - those -- th ose 25 precauti ons to people preparing for use in han41i ng NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4026214 112 1 hazardous materials. It is not written in our mat- -- 2 material because it is assumed that if one says a 3 product is toxic by ingestion, by absorption through the 4 skin, by inhalation of the vapors, that it would be ' 5 assumed that you would -- should wash it off pjj your 6 hands before you got it in your mouth. 7 Now, you just -- just talked about a document 8 where we were talking about, "Let's get the damn thing 9 out of the -- the eating joint so we can stop that 10 foolishness. " 11 Q Yeah. Well, apparently in your very own plant, 12 some people had some trouble with the understanding that 13 you shouldn't eat food around it -- is that correct? -- 14 to the extent you had to write the memo that we've 15 talked about, Document 38968. 16 A If we had an operator who could have saved ten 37 minutes of the day or got paid ten minutes more, it is 18 likely that he would have tried to save the time to 19 make -- and I don't blame him for that. 20 Now, it is our responsibility, therefore, to 21 short-circuit that effort if it has anything to do with 22 the potential that he might get hurt. 23 Q The second -- 24 A And, by golly, he -- they (didn't get hurt. 25 Q The second precaution, "Should Aroclor-come NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026215 113 1 into contact with the skin, it should be washed off 2 immediately": Is that the British or European way of 3 saying precautions like that? 4 A That precaution would h ave been g iv e n to anyone_ 5 who would have asked the profess ionals in the 6 depa rtm ent. 7 If you go look in that document, it says , "Tell 8 your Me dical Department" certain things. Tha t' s the 9 typical way the British put it. 10 In the United S tates, i t was usua iiy provided 11 to thei r professional pe ople in their setup. If we, for 12 exampie , decided to sell a produ ct -- and Aro cl or would 13 be an e xample -- suddenly we wer e going to -- to 14 provide -- we're going to sell i t a -- as a n ew p roduct 15 for som e use, let's say to anoth er company We would 16 provide that other company's professional staff with 17 detailed information and anything they asked about. 18 Q How would you -- 19 A But to say to them, "Wash your hands," when 20 it -- when it's toxic by ingestion is -- is presumptive 21 of their ignorance, in my opinion. 22 Q What about the third precaution, "Clothing, 23 hand tools and similar equipment which have been in 24 contact with Aroclors should be cleaned. Aroclors ' 25 spilled on the bench or floor should also be cleared up NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026216 114 1 immediately, and cloth or rags used for this purpose 2 should be destroyed. " 3 Is that the European way of saying it? 4 A That is a -- that is -- is -- is minute detail. 5 That is the responsibility of the individual Safety 6 Departments. If -- if it is toxic by mouth, if it is 7 toxic by skin absorption, I can't imagine why you'd want 8 it laying around on the floor -- 9 Q Okay. 10 A -- or on rags. 11 Q So what you'retelling me is ifMonsanto told 12 people Aroclor is toxic by mouth, then the rest of this 13 stuff they should have figured out on their own? 14 A. No.We told them more than that. We told 15 them that "this is a product that is a polychlorinated 16 aro- -- aromatic chlorinated hydrocarbon; and, as such, 17 it is toxic. You should not inhale the vapors, you 18 should not put it in contact with the skin, and you 19 should not get it in contact with the mouth so that it 20 is ingested." 21 Now -- 22 Q That's what you toldpeople in the United 23 States ? 24 A That is right. That is right. 25 Now, if -- if a person that received this NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026217 115 1 information in setting up a safety or health program 2 didn't hav e -- didn'1t know how to carry that out in 3 detail. it would be unne ce ssary to have that detailed 4 se ction is what I'm really saying. I'm not criticizing 5 the British. 6 Q Did you ever encounter any experiences where 7 you had some people who didn't appear to be able to 8 follow the simple instruction, "It's toxic by mouth, by 9 skin, and by inhalation," sufficiently to take the 10 appropriate detailed steps? 11 A Not after we got through with them. 12 Q I see. Well, how would you find out about 13 that? 14 A The supervisor to the foreman, we knew. 15 Q Well, no. I'm sorry. I'm talking about 16 customers. I'm talking about the people that you gave 17 these warnings to. 18 A The customer has the same responsibility we 19 had. We can't reach into his plant and say, "This man 20 is illiterate. We must take him out and give him a 21 Braille lesson," or something like that. We can't do 22 that. 23 We expect that any prudent person that is 24 trained in the field of -- of occupational medicine, 25 hygiene, toxicology, would do that. We did it in your NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026218 116 1 plants. .. 2 We -- and if they asked us, "Do you have an" -- 3 and we were asked at times -- "Do you have detailed 4 instructions?" . 5 Wei 1, our ar gum ent -- o ur - - we went ba ck 6 thr ou gh esse nti ally that la undry li s t that's on the 7 Br i ti sh documen t. That laundry list goes -- it's in 8 ev e ry docume nt. It ' s on every p rodu cL that's handled 9 that i s haza r do us. It - - it is the standard handling 10 proce dure fo r a mat eri al that is tox ic by inhalation. 11 absor pt j. on. and by inges ti on. 12 Q Let me see if I understand your test imony 13 correctly. 14 If someone asked you for more detailed 15 information, you would then go through the detailed type 16 of precautions that are set forth in this British 17 document at Page 18734 (tendering). Correct? 18 A Or we would have told them -- and we did many 19 times -- to contact their professional people at -- in 20 their own plant. 21 Q I see. So sometimes people would ask you for 22 detailed information -- 23 A No. To my knowledge, as -- as far as I am 24 concerned, I was never asked a question by a company or 25 individual that would have been answered by that laundry NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026219 117 1 list. ~ 2 Q Okay. 3 A Okay. 4 Q So your testimony is you never recall giving 5 instructions on the safe handling of Aroclor with as 6 much detail as is given in this British document? 7 A That is not what I said. 8 Q All right. Well, why don't -- 9 A I certainly have -- recall doing it. 10 Q And under what circumstances would you give 11 that type of detailed -- 12 A In a plant safety meeting with the plant Safety 13 Director with the pro- -- the units, the unit operators, 14 and/or the new trainees that are coming into the 15 department because of rotational problems within the 16 pi ant. 17 Q You're talkingabout within Monsanto? 18 A Precisely. 19 Q You never gave any customer of Monsanto or any 20 employee of any customer of Monsanto as much detail 21 about the precautions for safe handling of Aroclors as 22 are contained in this British document at Page 18734 23 (tendering). Is that correct? 24 A That is not correct. That is a -- an 25 assumption that -- that -- that simply isn't correct. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026220 118 1 The fact is, that set of -- of instructions . is- 2 available on the handling of anything. It is in the - 3 it is a standard saw. The people that handle this 4 material, this is a standard affair. They didn't do 5 that for Aroclor. That damn statement come out of every 6 product that has ever been manufactured that is 7 hazardous. 8 They put the hands statement in if it's -- if 9 it's toxic by ingestion. Okay? You know, stick the 10 potato in there about hands. It's like the old joke 11 about the bedbug; send the nut the bedbug letter. 12 Put the stuff in there about hands, stuff 13 that's toxic by ingestion. Put the stuff in there about 14 not breathing it -- using breathing protection if it -- 15 if it is toxic by in- -- by inhalation. And keep it off 16 the skin, make sure you change clothes, and don't leave 17 stuff laying around that has slop on it if it is toxic 18 by absorption through the skin. 19 It -- it is improper to place that statement 20 in -- in importance, because it was a common known 21 system. I don't think I ever talked to anyone within 22 our company or anybody else connected with this business 23 that had any problems connected with it. You -- what 24 we're talking about's a nonproblem. 25 Q I see. Everybody knew all of these things - NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026221 119 1 already, and you didn't need to tell them that? 2 A Everybody got a copy of the label if they got 3 the material in their prop- -- in their province. 4 Q I see. __ 5 A Everybody got copies of any toxicological 6 information we handed out, and we handed out on 7 hundred -- hundreds of thousand of copies of it. 8 It is our personal opinion and my professional 9 opinion that that information is information provided by 10 the -- the -- the Safety Department to the individual 11 operators if it would not offend them -- if it would not 12 offend them by telling them to wash their hands. 13 Q So I -- if I understand your testimony, then, 14 it's your opinion that this type of precautions would be 15 supplied by the customer to its own employees at its 16 discretion? 17 A That is correct. 18 Q Okay. And for that reason, Monsanto did not 19 supply it to its customers itself? 20 A That is correct. 21 Q It relied on the customer's -- 22 A That's right. 23 Q -- own people to put out -- 24 A The customer's own -- 25 Q -- detailed instructions. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026222 120 1 A -- technii cal people and in str u ction s; tha t's 2 right. 3 Q An d did not m ake any ef f or t on its own to 4 provid e any inf ormatio n that co uld be g iven en masse to 5 the era pi oy e es of the c ustomer s that use d the product. 6 Cor re c t? 7 A Wh at wer e you going to giv e th e em pi oy e e s ? 8 Q Di d you make any eff ort to giv e the empl oy ees 9 of the cust omer s any th i ng? 10 A We gave them the inf ormati on. Th ey have 11 their -- I don * t know what th ei r sa f ety prog rams 12 repres ent. You k now. I don't know how they make the 13 mechan ism r un. 14 We gave littl e cards out i n our -- in our 15 pi ants . We have pr ovi ded copies of tho se to the -- to 16 cust- -- customer s whe n they asked. 17 Q What did -- what did Monsanto do, if anything, 18 in order to determine whether or not customers were, in 19 fact, providing the necessary information to their 20 workmen to protect their workmen? 21 A I don't -- I -- I really don't know how that -- 22 what -- we have demonstrated that for uses that are 23 improperly done, we would not sell the product. Okay? 24 Q How was that demonstrated? 25 A We do not presume -- we would presume that any NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4026223 121 1 company that handled it or purchased it would have - 2 enough intelligence and common ordinary prudence to 3 follow the simple instructions connected with the 4 toxicities that we provided to them. - 5 Q That was just an assumption that was a given in 6 the way the Monsanto Medical Department worked. 7 Correct? 8 A And it worked beautifully, because we didn't - 9 I never heard of a case in all my years, 10 Q You never, in all of your years with Monsanto, 11 heard of a single customer that misused PCB products. 12 Correct? 13 A That had a -- that -- that resulted -- that 14 resulted in a toxicological manifestation that was 15 demonstrated. 16 Q Okay. So if I understand your testimony 17 correctly, you never heard of a single customer of 18 Monsanto for Aroclors that ever had a -- 19 A Ah-ah-ah. We're talking about polychlorinated 20 biphenyls. Right? 21 Q We certainly are. 22 A All right, then. 23 Q Is there some problem with that? 24 A No. 25 Q You never heard of a single customer of NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026224 122 1 Monsanto -2 A To my recollection. 3 Q -- that used Monsanto's Aroclors -- 4 A Or -- 5 Q -- that had a single - 6 A Or in Monsanto. 7 Q I'm -- I'm asking about customers. Let me ask 8 my question, because I want to make sure I'm clear on 9 what your testimony is. 10 A Uh-huh. 11 Q In your years of experience as an industrial 12 hygienist with Monsanto, you don't know of a single 13 situation where a single customer of Monsanto's Aroclor 14 products had even one employee that demonstrated any 15 toxicological problems from exposure to Aroclors. 16 Correct? 17 A That were verified as from these materials 18 Q I see. Well, did you have some where the 19 customer thought they related to the materials, but you 20 couldn't verify it to your satisfaction? 21 A Maybe one -- 22 Q What was -- 23 A -- in 35 years -- 24 Q What -- 25 A -- maybe two. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026225 123 1 Q Whatwerethose? - 2 A I don't recall. 3 Q Did you all in the Medical Department discuss 4 with each another any information you got about customer 5 problems with - 6 A If we felt it was germane, yes. 7 Q In your experience with the Medical Department, 8 did you ever hear of a circumstance where a customer was 9 not using PCBs with the precautions that you thought 10 were necessary, but it had not yet resulted in what you 11 considered a verifiable injury to a workman? 12 A I don't know -- how far do you want to stretch 13 the rubber band? I -- we heard of what we considered 14 misuse, and we stopped it. 15 Q What did you do about it? That's my -- 16 A We stopped it. 17 Q How did you stop it? 18 A We stopped selling it to them. 19 Q Okay. So if Monsanto heard of a customer 20 misusing PCBs in a way that could be hazardous to the 21 customer's workmen, it was Monsanto's policy to stop 22 selling PCBs to that customer? 23 A That is correct. 24 MR. CRAWFORD: Be -- be sure you're 25 talking about something that you know NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026226 124 1 about, and don't speculate. 2 THE WITNESS: In the -- I am talking 3 about a --- a -- an incident I know about. 4 MR. CRAWFORD: One incident, though? 5 THE WITNESS: That's tr ue. 6 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, that's one 7 incident -8 A I can't say that as a general -- in my opinion 9 and in my own -- of my own free knowledge, that's -- 10 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, then, don't give 11 him a general answer like -- 12 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm sorry. If it 13 was too general, it -- it is too general. 14 It is my own view. 15 A You realize that you're asking me for my own 16 view, and my own knowledge, and that's -- I'm giving you 17 an answer . And to my knowledge -- 18 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, let's listen to 19 the -- 20 THE WITNESS: Okay. 21 MR. CRAWFORD: -- questioning -- 22 THE WITNESS: Okay. 23 MR. CRAWFORD: -- and answer it 24 specifically, and we'll -- we'll move 25 right along. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4026227 1 BY MR. LACEY: 125 , 2 Q Tell me about the circumstance where Monsanto 3 learned of a customer misusing its PCB products and 4 stopped selling them to them. 5 A I don't know the -- the details of them. 6 These -- these things occurred so many years ago. I 7 can't recall those details. 8 Q You just remember there was such a customer? 9 A Yes, I do. 10 QAnd Monsanto stopped selling to them? 11 A That is correct. 12 Q Were they a big customer or a small customer? 13 A I don't know. 14 Q Would it have madeany differencefrom your 15 standpoint how big a customer they were? 16 A No. 17 Q If it was the biggest customer you had, the 18 appropriate course would still be to stop selling to 19 them if they were using it in such a way that their 20 workmen couldbe hurt. Correct? 21 A That is right. 22 MR. CRAWFORD: Something that you 23 know about,.now. Are you talking about 24 forever? I mean, don't get too -- it's a 25 very general, broad question; and I'd NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026228 126 1 suggest that you limit your answer to what 2 you know about. 3 THE WITNESS : I -- I assume that my 4 answer is limited to what I know, 5 MR. LACEY: I'm asking this 6 witness -- it's your wit- -- it's your -7 BY MR. LACEY: 8 Q Are you having any problems with the -- the 9 questions or the answers? 10 A So long as they are predicated with -- that 11 it's within the limit of my individual knowledge and 12 recall -13 Q Sure. 14 A -- yes. 15 Q Sure. Well, that's fine. I'm not asking you 16 to testify for somebody else. I'm asking for your 17 opinions here. 18 A My opinion doesn't mean - - isn't worth a 19 nickel. But what my recall and -- and so forth is 20 to do with what I know of my own true -- own recall 21 and -- and my own knowledge. 22 Q Well, you were the Manager for Industrial 23 Hygiene for Monsanto for a number of years. 24 A That's cor r ect. 25 Q And that is a matter of some importance, NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026229 127 1 probably, to the Jury in this case -- 2 A All right. 3 Q -- what your opinion on Mon- -- what Monsanto 4 should have done. 5 MR. JONES: David, just ask_the 6 questions. Don't make statements for the 7 re cor d. 8 MR. LACEY: Well, I'm not making any 9 statements for the record. 10 MR. JONES: Well, it sure did appear 11 to be to me. 12 MR. LACEY: I see. 13 BY MR. LACEY: 14 Q Were you ever involved in any discussions 15 regarding the research that was being done in the 1960's 16 and 1970's on the toxicology of PCBs? 17 A I knew of it. I knew of it. And in man- -- in 18 some cases, I may have handled the -- the -- the -- 19 the -- the transmission of the inf- -- of the -- of the 20 information from the laboratory back to the general 21 department. But everyone in the department did that on 22 screening results. 23 Q Now, you may have received or written 24 transmittal letters that went to or from Industrial 25 Bio-Test Laboratories? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026230 128 1 A No. I did not handle that. They did the -- . ~ 2 the chronic. I limited my comments to acute data. 3 Q I see. You didn't have anything to do with the 4 chronic studies of the toxicity of PCBs? 5 A No. 6 Q Industrial Bio-Test was the company that did 7 all of the chronic studies for -- 8 A I don't know. 9 Q You do not know? 10 A I do not know. 11 Q What -- what groups did you work with on the 12 acute studies? 13 A The only one I worked with is Younger 14 Laboratory. 15 Q And all of their work was acute? 16 A That is correct. 17 Q Do you remember having a discussion with a 18 Wilbur Speicher of Westinghouse Electric Company with 19 regard to the toxicity of chlorinated naphthalenes? 20 A No. 21 Q Let me show you a letter dated February 23rd, 22 1973, from Elmer Wheeler to Mr. Wilbur Speicher, 23 Document 25134 through 25136 (tendering). Let me ask 24 you to review that letter. 25 A (Reviews document.) NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026231 129 1 What do you want to know about it? 2 Q That letter -- 3 MR. LACEY: Bob, you might leave it 4 over here so he can look at it while I'm ' 5 asking him about it, if you would* please. 6 MR. JONES: If you would just let me 7 look at it before you ask the question, 8 I'd appreciate it. 9 BY MR. LACEY: 10 Q That letter was written by Mr.Wheeler to 11 Mr. Speicher to summarize a conversation that you, 12 Mr. Wheeler, and Mr. Speicher had. Correct? 13 A I don't know. 14 Q I see. 15 A I don't recall what the occasion wasat all. I 16 really don't. 17 Q You have no recollection at all. 18 Mr. Wheeler says in his first two sentences, 19 first paragraph, "Jack Garrett and I" -- is that -- are 20 you the Jack Garrett he's talking about? 21 A Yes. I am, indeed. 22 Q "Jack Garrett and I have discussed his 23 conversation with you some time ago concerning the 24 toxicity of chlorinated naphthalenes. I thought I would 25 confirm his comments to you by this letter" *' NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026232 130 1 (tendering) . ~ 2 And if I understand correctly, that means that 3 you talked to Mr. Speicher about chlorinated 4 naphthalenes and discussed the contents of this letter.-. 5 You have no recollection of that? 6 A None. 7 Q I see. 8 ,A None at all. 9 Q Did you ever tell anyone that Askarel-type 10 fluids were under continuing surveillance and study by a 11 number of U. S. agencies, including the Food and Drug 12 Administration,the Council of Environmental Quality, 13 the Office of Science and Technology of the President, 14 the National Bureau of Standards, and several 15 subagencies of the Environmental Protection Agency? 16 A I don't know that I ever did. I don't think I 17 was given that laundry list of agencies, but I -- it - 18 it -- it's true in the day, but I don't recall that. I 19 don't recall that letter, and I don't recall that 20 specific comment. 21 Q I see. Would you have ever told anybody it's 22 no secret that a number of individuals within these 23 agencies have proposed on complete ban on the use of 24 PCBs, including the use in transformers and capacitors? 25 A I knew that was the case through -- bjjt I -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026233 131 1 but I don't know what year I knew that, and I don't know 2 how to connect it up with that year. 3 Q I see. 4 Would you have ever told anybody the continued" 5 use of these applications is currently all.owbd.- under 6 restrictions based primarily on action by Monsanto to 7 prove that the current quality PCBs manufactured in the 8 United States could be used with appropriate precautions 9 without serious industrial hazards and with complete 10 protection of the environment? 11 A Most assuredly. 12 Q You would have told people, then. 13 A We did believe that -- 14 Q Okay. 15 A -- and still believe it. 16 Q Monsanto was the leader in trying to convince 17 people that PCBs could be used safely for electrical 18 applications, were they not? 19 A We were, the only manufacturer in this 20 hemisphere. If anybody led it, it was we and the large 21 user s. 22 Q Okay. And this letter was written to a large 23 user, was it not; Westinghouse? 24 A A large user. 25 Q Was it your view that even as between^Monsanto NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026234 132 1 and the large users, it was Monsanto that was the person 2 who had the primary position in proving that PCBs could 3 be used safely in transformers and capacitors? 4 A No. And I don't know -- because I don't know 5 whether that had anything to do with that letter or not. 6 Q I see. Well, again, we have Mr. Wheeler's 7 letter, which says it's summarizing what you told 8 Mr. Speicher. You have no recollection of that? 9 A I summarized what I told you about chlorinated 10 naphthalenes. 11 Q I see. 12 A Now, the rest of it may beconnected with -- 13 with things I discussed with Speicher, but I certainly 14 do not remember. 15 Q I see. 16 A I had many, many conversations with --with the 17 people involved. Speicher was an industrial hygienist 18 in -- in the field. I knew him personally, as did 19 Elmer. I saw him at the meetings connected with the 20 annual meetings. We talked about many things. 21 Q Was it your opinion that the most important 22 data which has led the Government agencies to permit the 23 continued but restricted use of polychlorinated 24 biphenyls are the extensive animal toxicity studies 25 which have been "completed in the last two yeaT-s, " NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026235 133 1 saying that those studies have cost Monsanto something ' 2 more than a half million dollars? 3 A I don't know that that would -- was germane, 4 and I don't even know what it means. I don't know thatn 5 I would have known the cost, in any case. The letter 6 was written by Mr. Wheeler. 7 Q I see. And it doesn't, to your knowledge, 8 then, really summarize what you told Mr. Speicher? 9 MR. JONES: David, you're -- 10 A I don't recall. 11 MR. JONES: -- sitting there going 12 through a letter that he doesn't recall. 13 A I don't recall. 14 MR. JONES: We're spending about five 15 minutes on that. 16 MR. LACEY: Well, I think it's 17 probably worth five minutes. 18 MR. JONES: Seems like one question 19 could have handled it. 20 MR. LACEY: It may seem that way to 21 you. If I'd had the letter when I talked 22 to Mr. Wheeler, maybe some questions with 23 him would have. 24 MR. JONES: Maybe you should have 25 looked. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4026236 13 4 1 MR. LACEY: Oh, I -- I didn't have it' 2 when I took his deposition. 3 MR. JONES: Swear to me you didn't. 4 BY MR. LACEY: 5 Q You mentioned that you had a number of 6 conversations with Mr. Speicher. What did you talk with 7 Mr. Speicher about? 8 A The -- the only conversations I had with 9 Wilbur, in my opinion, were with -- were in connection 10 with the trade at -- at the annual meeting. 11 I -- I'll tell you the truth: If you brought 12 him in here, I would not recognize him. Now -13 Q Did you - 14 A -- I talked to him. He was a friend of 15 Elmer's. I knew him. We talked together. I just -- I 16 don't recall him. , 17 Q Do you remember any discussions with him about 18 Aroclors or PCBs? 19 A We had -- we probably discussed them, because 20 it was the primary problem that -- I think, that 21 Westinghouse had in mind. . 22 But, remember, in my case I had 2,000 problems 23 in 50 plants. And -- and -- and the amount of time that 24 I could devote specifically to the Aroclors was minimal, 25 as long as I and my subordinates felt that the.-^plants NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026237 13 5 1 and their Safety and Hygiene Departments were handling 2 it appropriately. 3 Q When you 're talking a bo ut "the pi ant s, " are you 4 king about the Monsanto plants? 5 A Monsa. nt o pi ants. 6 Q Okay. 7 A That i s cor r ect. - . -- --- 8 Q So yciu don't recall any -- the substance of any 9 cussi.ons yo'U had with Mr. Speich er about PCBs, if yo u 10 had any. Is that correct? 11 A No. I -- I'm sure we did, but I can't recall 12 the substance of them. 13 Q I see. 14 A I knew him for -- I've known him for 35, 40 15 year s. 16 Q Do you recall the substance of any di scussions 17 you had with any body at We s tinghouse at any time about 18 PCBs? 19 A No. 20 Q Do you recall the substance of the di scussions 21 if any, that you had wi th a ny bo dy at th e TVA a bout PCBs 22 A Not spe cifically, no. 23 Q Do you recall gene rally any di scus sio ns you ha 24 with any bo dy at the TV A about PCBs? 25 A You ' r e -- you' re a sking me almo st to NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026238 1 conjecture. 136 ' 2 Yes, I had dealings with the TVA in connec- - 3 I can't connect them. I had dealings with them on 4 pollution control and -- and dealings with them on ~ 5 handling hazardous materials. .... 6 Keep in mind, at the time TVA was in 7 manufacturing and a big competitor of ours in the 8 phosphorous and phosphorous chemical business. And yes, 9 we had -- we dealt with them. 10 Q My question was limited. I'm sorry. Let me 11 make it very clear. 12 I'm trying to find out if you remember whether 13 you had any discussions with anybody at the TVA about 14 PCBs. 15 A I -- I can' t r ecall. 16 Q Okay. And, th eref ore, you cer tai nly could n' t 17 recall the sub st:ance of them if you had th em? 18 A That is; cor re c t. And they would have been many 19 year s ago. 20 Q Do y o u r eca 11 whether you had any discussi ons 21 with a ny bo dy a t all at Ford abo ut PCBs? 22 A Of my own r eco llection , no 23 Q And, theref or e , you ce r tai nly couldn't rec all 24 the substance of: any such conversat i ons if you had them. 25 Correc t? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026239 137 1 A In detail, certainly not. 2 Q Even generally. 3 A No, because I don't know. 4 Q Fine. 5 Have you ever given a deposition before? 6 A Yes. 7 Q On how manyoccasions? 8 A Oh, goodness. Four or five times. 9 Q Can you tell me about those different 10 occasions; what they involved? 11 A An accident that occurred in a railroad train 12 over in central Missouri. 13 Q Is that the case that's been in trial with 14 Monsanto for two or three years? 15 A Yes. 16 Q You gave a deposition in that case? 17 A I gave a deposition in one of the cases. 18 Q I see. Did you testify live at trial in the 19 case, too? 20 A No. 21 Q That involved -- what chemical did that 22 involve? 23 A It involved a waste material from the chloracne 24 chlorophenol units. 25 Q All right. What about the other depositions NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026240 13 8 1 you've given? ' 2 A I gave a deposition on -- on a case in -- in 3 the Chocolate Bayou plant in Texas. 4 Q Do you remember what the chemical was? : 5 A Alleged benzene exposure. 6 Q You didn't think there was any? 7 A No. 8 Q What other depositions have you given? 9 A I gave a deposition on -- on the -- on the 10 handling -- the -- the manufacturing processes connected 11 with pentachiorophenol. 12 Q And what was that -- where was that case 13 pending? What plant? 14 A I don't have the vaguest. The plant where it 15 was manufactured was Krummrich. 16 Q What else? 17 A I don't recall. I don't -- I don't remember; I 18 j ust don1t. 19 Q The benzene exposure case at Chocolate Bayou: 20 Is that the case that was recently tried in Galveston? 21 A I don't know. I was not -- 22 Q The plaintiff's name - 23 A -- involved in thecase -- 24 Q I see. 25 A -- down there. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026241 13 9 1 Q I see. 2 A I don't know where it was tried. It was tried 3 somewhere in Texas, yes. 4 Q Recently tried, within - 5 A Ye s. ,___ 6 Q I see. Skeen? Does that name ring any - 7 A Yes. 8 Q -- bells? 9 A Yes. 10 Q You gave a deposition in that case? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And that depositiondealt with the 13 safe-handling practices for benzene? 14 A It dealt with benzene in thatplant. 15 Q Which is where the plaintiff claimed to have 16 been exposed. Correct? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q Have you ever given a deposition before in a 19 case involving PCBs? 20 A No. 21 Q Have you ever testified live at trial? 22 A No. 23 Q Did you have anything at all to do with the 24 decision-making process by Monsanto with regard to 25 restricting the sale of PCBs to certain uses and NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026242 140 1 ultimately stopping the sale altogether? ' 2 A Anything to do with it? 3 Q Yes. 4 A The whole company structure in connection with- 5 it and its assoc- -- its hazards and the claims, had to 6 do with it. I -- I -- what part individuals played is 7 difficult to say. 8 Q Well, can you define any role that you 9 personally played in the decision-making process by the 10 company to get out of the PCB business? 11 A No. 12 Q You weren't asked to comment on that or to give 13 your input? 14 A No. 15 MR LACEY: Pass the witness. 16 MR JONES: Let's just take a quick 17 br ea k. 18 THE VIDEOTECHNICIAN: We're off the 19 record. 20 21 (Recess) 22 23 THE VIDEOTECHNICIAN: We've been off 24 the record for a short break. We're back 25 on the record,, and the time is 6^48 p.m. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026243 141 1 EXAMINATION " 2 3 QUESTIONS BY MR. JONES: 4 Q Mr. Garrett, I have just a few questions that T 5 would like to ask you. I'm a little confusedjpy some of 6 the questions that Mr. Lacey asked, and I'd like to 7 clear up some of the things that may have been 8 discussed. 9 MR. LACEY: I'm going to object to 10 the argumentative nature of the speech on 11 the record. 12 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, they were 13 confusing. 14 MR. LACEY: I'm going to object to 15 the argumentative comments of Counsel. 16 The witness and I weren't at all confused. 17 BY MR. JONES: 18 Q Mr. Garrett, let me show you the document that 19 was Bates-stamped, or whatever this number is, 038968. 20 And do you remember that document and testifying about 21 it (tendering)? 22 A Yes, I saw it a few minutes ago. 23 Q And -- 24 A Mr. Lacey showed it. 25 Q And what is that documentabout? -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026244 142 1 A It's about eating in Pro cess De partments. 2 Q Okay . And -- and i t par ticular ly talks about 3 the Arocl or p ro ce ss. Is th at cor rect? 4 A Pr ec i sely. 5 Q And that's pr eci se iy the thing that I want to 6 make clear. That wasn't the type of memo that was just 7 limited to the Aroclor process? 8 A No. 9 Q And that would have been in -- and that would 10 have been in -- true of all the processes there at the 11 Krummrich plant? 12 MR. LACEY: Object; leading. 13 A That is correct. The memo was directed at the 14 practice of eating in the Process Building. 15 BY MR. JONES : 16 Q Now, also you'll see there in the Paragraph 17 No. 3 there -- and let me read it, if I may; Mr. Lacey 18 talked to you a little bit about that -- it says, "While 19 the Aroclors are not particularly hazardous from our own 20 experience. " 21 Now, does that mean your own experience in the 22 Monsanto plants, or does that also include the 23 experiences that you may have learned through your 24 customer s ? 25 A That would include both. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026245 1 Q Okay. It's not limited just - 143 2 A No. 3 Q -- to the Monsanto plants? 4 A No. 5 Q It's the -- 6 A No. 7 Q -- entire body of knowledge that Monsanto may 8 have acquired? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q Now, you also testified to the Toxicology and 11 Safe Handling of Monsanto Aroclor booklet here, which 12 was stamped 1- -- 18731. Is that correct? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q And I believe you said that that was a bulletin 15 that came from London, England, or -- 16 A When I first looked at the bulletin, I -- we 17 prov- -- provided Technical Bulletins from time - 18 Technical Bulletin and information for bulletins that 19 Aroclor -- that the Aroclor group used in a -- in the 20 United States. When I first saw it, I mis- -- I -- I 21 misread it as an American document, but it turns out to 22 be the British equivalent of similar-type documents that 23 we produced in the United States. 24 Q And -- and with that in mind, did you have 25 anything to do with the preparation of that document? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026246 144 1 A The British document? Explicitly, no. The 2 the -- a lot of the data probably came from the United 3 States, because they used the body of data which 4 included American data and their data to -- to -- to t 5 draw their conclusions and write their document. 6 Q Well, did you personally review and critique 7 that particular brochure? 8 A No. 9 Q Now, you also said that from the time that you 10 began working in the Medical Department in 1953, that 11 you had documents which were similar to that available 12 in your department. 13 A That's -- no. We -- we helped prepare 14 documents similar to that for distribution, and the 15 distribution was largely done by the -- the Product 16 group. But we prepared the inf ormation, . Dr. Kelly and I 17 and Mr. Wheeler, in respect of our own individual parts 18 of it. 19 Q Well, when you said "similar documents," 20 precisely what did you have in mind? 21 A Tech Bulletins and the documents that went out 22 with the sales literature that carried this kind of 23 inf ormat i on. 24 Keep in mind, this is only three pages. This 25 document has more filler pages in it than that- You NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026247 145 1 see, that is the document I'm talking about right there 2 (indicating). That's all there is to it; three pages. 3 Q All right, sir. Well, I guess what I'm asking, 4 though, is: When you said a "similar bulletin," you ' 5 didn't mean one that was titled "Toxology" .-- 6 "Toxicology and Safe Handling of Monsanto Aroclor"? 7 A Not necessarily, no. 8 Q And you -- I believe you said that you were 9 referring to such documents as the Technical Bulletins. 10 A That's tr ue. 11 Q And those Technical Bulletins were given to 12 the customers of Monsanto? 13 A That's tr ue. 14 Q Now, in connection with these documents here 15 that -- that we've been talking about here, the British 16 document -- and I think you compared it to some of 17 the -- at least in the abstract, the Technical 18 Bulletins. 19 A Uh-huh. 20 Q Is that correct? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q Is it safe to say, that, that both of these 23 documents are correct? In other words, both of them 24 will do the job? 25 A Yes. ~~ NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026248 1 46 1 MR. LACEY: Obj e ct; 1ea ding. 2 A They are correct. They contain the same basic 3 toxicological data and the same basic conclusions. 4 BY MR. JONES: 5 Q So, in other words. both woul d do the jo b 6 7 A Yes. 8 Q -- Y ou had -- was - 9 A That ' s right. 10 Q -- at .least a ttempt ing to try to accompl ish? 11 A That ' s right. 12 MR. LACEY : Object; 1 ea di ng. 13 MR. JONES : You called him as a 14 w itne ss. This is cross- exam ination 15 MR. LACEY : Sure. 35 y ears wi th 16 Monsanto , the only job h e' s hel d. Righ 17 MR. CRAWFORD: I object to the 18 comment s. 19 BY MR. JONES: 20 Q In other words, and I think to make it more 21 clear, that the Tech- -- the Technical Bulletins, which 22 were the American bulletins, those were more geared to 23 the practical use of Aroclors as opposed to the British 24 document that we've been referring to. 25 MR. LACEY: Object; leading^. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026249 147 1 A Well, I would -- I would say that -- that they 2 covered the same ground, and we covered it differently 3 because of the different styles of the different 4 countries. It is not surprising,.in my view. ' 5 BY MR. JONES: . ... 6 Q Is it also true that perhaps there were 7 different circumstances which the British brochure may 8 have been attempting to handle that may not have been 9 present in the American -- 10 A Exactly. 11 Q -- situations? 12 MR. LACEY: Ob- -- object; leading. 13 A It is absolutely possible, yes. 14 BY MR. JONES: 15 Q Now, you don't work for Monsanto, do you? 16 A No. 17 Q In fact, you retired in 1985. Is that true? 18 A Right. 19 Q And also in connection with such information as 20 come out on the Technical Bulletin -- Bulletins or the 21 warning labels, do you have any understanding or 22 experience in determining how the message gets across, I 23 guess, to the -- to the person who is reading the 24 document? 25 Do you understand what I'm saying? I->may not NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026250 148 1 have worded that very well. - 2 MR. LACEY: I'm going to object. 3 It's leading, to the extent it's 4 understandable. 5 BY MR. JONES: _ 6 Q Let me rephrase it. Okay? 7 A Go ahead. 8 Q What experience have you had in connection with 9 dissemination of -- of information concerning the health 10 and safe-handling aspects of Aroclors concerning maybe 11 the length of the information that you're trying to 12 communicate? In other words, would you -- if a document 13 was too long, what effect would that have on the reader? 14 A It would depend -- 15 MR. LACEY: Object; leading. 16 A I think it would depend on who the audience was 17 supposed to be. 18 If the audience was supposed to be professional 19 technical people, the length was dictated by the data 20 that was available and needed. If the -- if the 21 document was placed in the hands -- was -- was for the 22 use of -- of -- of something else, it would be -- it 23 would have to have that as its main affair. 24 In our case, in the case of the Medical 25 Department, our principal aim was to prepare information NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026251 149 1 that could be used by our plants and customer plants. 2 BY MR. JONES: 3 Q So, in other words, it would depend on the -- 4 the audience, then, that you were trying to communicate' 5 with? . ____ 6 A That is absolutely correct. 7 Q And in some instances, if a document was too 8 long,.it's your experience, then, that perhaps the 9 reader may not read it? 10 A That's my opinion, yes. 11 Q And in such a case, then, the message wouldn't 12 get across that you were trying to convey? 13 A That's probably correct. 14 Q You also testified, if I understood you 15 earlier -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- that Monsanto, 16 if it learned of any misuse of any of its Aroclor 17 products, that it would automatically stop selling those 18 products to that particular customer. 19 A I did not mean that. If I said it, I'm -- I'm 20 sorry. I'm incorrect. 21 Q All right, sir. Then tell me what you meant to 22 say. 23 A I mean to say that if Monsanto determined that 24 there was a gross misuse of a product that was hazarding 25 the life of workers in their immediate life, then NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026252 150 1 Monsanto would make every effort to stop that 2 circumstance and at -- to the point of removing it from 3 sal e. 4 Q Did you ever know of any such situation, then? ' 5 A One. 6 Q And -- and what did that involve? 7 A It was an occurrence where our -- where a 8 product was used, an Aroclor product was used, misused, 9 as a mold release agent in brass founding because it 10 became -- it was a good mold release agent. 11 Q And was -- and was that the situation that you 12 referred to earlier which -- where you -- was that the 13 Ohio firm, I believe, that you were talking about? 14 A No. It was a Michigan -- it was a Pontiac, 15 Michigan, firm, I think; but I'm not sure. But it was 16 gross misuse of the product. 17 The product that was -- at the time was a 18 hydraulic fluid, and this was being -- was being used as 19 a -- as a mold release agent in brass founding. And it 20 was causing the material to pyrolize and -- and the 21 fumes were -- were -- they were immediately harmful to 22 the workers. And we stopped it. 23 Q So, in other words, that was a use for which 24 the product was not designed? 25 A That is correct. It was sim.ply not designed NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026253 151 1 f or th at use. 2 Q And that would be gross misuse, in your mind? 3 A That is gross misuse, yes. 4 Q And that 's the only instance that y ou have 5 hea rd of or have any recollection of -- . .., -- 6 A That is cor r ect. 7 Q -- where Monsanto quit selliing the Ar o cl or s ? 8 A That is cor r ect. 9 Q So what you're telling us, then, it wo ul d 10 cer tai nly depend on the circumstances of the misuse 11 bef ore something like that would take pi a c e. 12 MR. LACEY: Object ; leadi ng. 13 A If it wa s grossly misused, i t would depend on 14 whe r e would you get the information. how would you know 15 i t was tr ue, and how would you verify it. 16 In this case, this was a new use and we 17 could -- we could -- we could study i t. 18 But I repeat, in my 35 years I never saw a case 19 resulting from Aroclor exposure. I'm sorry, but I did 20 not. 21 BY MR. JONES: 22 Q Now, during the years that you worked with 23 Monsanto in their Industrial Hygiene,area, the Medical 24 Department, did anyone at Monsanto ever tell you or 25 restrict you in any way as to what you could S'ay to NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026254 152 1 Monsanto's customers about what Monsanto knew about the 2 product, the health and safety effects, or the proper 3 handling of the Aroclor product? 4 A Absolutely not. ' 5 Q So that type of information was freel-ygiven by 6 you in connection with your duties as an industrial 7 hygienist? 8 A That -- 9 MR. LACEY: Object; leading. 10 A That is correct. 11 BY MR. JONES: 12 Q And how did you convey such information? 13 A By every means that was available. We -- we 14 talked to them by phone; we sent out bulletins to them. 15 We made talks as -- at -- at -- at plants, our 16 own plants. We were rarely invited into a competitor's 17 plant. I mean, let's be -- be -- be perfectly honest 18 with ourselves. 19 We -- we gave speeches at various meetings. We 20 had conferences and -- with -- with -- with people at 21 various meetings. We talked in the halls to people that 22 were associated in the business. We talked to our own 23 salespeople connected with their distribution of the 24 materials. 25 There was never any restriction on what we NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4026255 153 1 CO ul d say in connection with what we k new a bo ut th e 2 pr oduc;t. its toxicology, and handling. 3 Q And was that information g ive n not o nly to the 4 cu stomier s, but other groups also? 5 A Gave it to the Government; we gave i t to 6 un iv er si ties; we gave it to -- we gave it to anybody who 7 as ke d f 0 r it. 8 Q What are Material Safety Data Shee ts ? 9 A Material Safety Data She ets a re da ta sheets 10 pr epar ed specifically on an indiv idual mate r i al. A 11 Ma teri al Safety Data Sheet is the safe ty da ta conne c ted 12 wi th the material entitled. 13 Q What would you do with s uch a Mate r i al :Safe ty 14 Da ta She et? 15 A Distribute them. 16 Q Whom would you distribut e it to? 17 A We would distribute them to a ny bo dy who wan ted 18 th em, an d we would automatically di st r ibute them to all 19 of our plants and our -- and our sales of f i ce S f ior the 20 purpose ot answering questions that came to the sale 21 office from local areas, particularly fire departments. 22 Plants -- customers, small customers would call 23 the local sales office, and they had copies of the 24 Material Safety Data Sheets to distribute. 25 Q Did you ever send any of those Mater4_al Safety NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026256 154 1 Data Sheets to the customers themselves? 2 A The -- the primary purpose for them was to give 3 them to customers. 4 Q What is a Toxic ity Information She et? 5 A Because it was diff icult to - - to =--...-to give 6 all the toxicity informa ti on out in bi ts an d pieces. 7 th e the stuff that wa s pu blished in jour nals and so 8 forth, a -- a summary of the toxicity of an individual 9 pc o duct was made by a pr of es sional tox i colo gist after 10 th ey jo ined our staff. And those Toxi ci ty Information 11 Sh eets covered a summary by a professi onal toxicologist 12 on the toxicology that w e had or knew about that came 13 f r om th e literature from our own files and reports. 14 Q Now, you had Ma teri al Safety Data Sheets on th' 15 Ar odor s. Is that corre ct? 16 A Prom the time there were Mate rial Safety Data 17 Sh eets. actually as a -- as an issue. Ther e were many 18 di f f er e nt ways Material Da ta Sheets we re -- were -- wer 19 f r ame d and distributed. 20 Q Okay. But that -- they also i nvol ved Aroclors 21 A Yes. 22 Q And is that also true with the Toxicity 23 Information Sheets? 24 A The Toxicity Information Sheets were -- were 25 largely given to professionals, because they w?re in NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026257 155 1 toxicology language. 2 The -- the -- the Material Safety Data Sheets 3 originally -- the original ones were largely in 4 language -- in common, everyday language. 5 Q Okay. But now my question was, though: Were 6 these Toxicity Information Sheets also prepared in 7 connection with Aroclors? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And I believe you said they were sent to 10 professionals. 11 A That's correct. 12 Q Do you mean the professionals such as yourself, 13 industrial hygienists? 14 A Physicians, toxicologists,epidemiologists in 15 the field. 16 Q And it would be those types of individuals 17 which worked for your customers? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And were those ToxicityInformation Sheets 20 concerning Aroclors ever updated? 21 A It -- it -- I am not a toxicologist, and the 22 toxicology people did this. They were -- all of the 23 occup- -- of the -- the health data sheets were 24 periodically updated. Now,.I would assume that, but I 25 am a -- not -- do not have direct kno.wledge of'it. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4026258 156 1 Q On how many occasions would you rec- -- have a 2 request for information from your customers concerning 3 Aroclors and how to properly handle them or what the 4 health effects were? ~- 5 A That would be difficult to say. It w_Quld -- it 6 would number into the -- I don't know. In -- in my 7 recall, recollection, it had to number well over a 8 hundred. Probably in the hundreds. 9 Q I'd like to show you a couple of documents and 10 just ask if you can identify them for me. 11 The first one is No. 024743, which is a 12 document which you had prepared and sent to a Robert 13 Ransier, dated Nov- -- September 20, 1961 (tendering). 14 Is that correct? 15 A Uh-huh. 16 Q What is that letter? What were you writing 17 about? 18 A This is the -- a letter to a gentleman from the 19 Marquardt Corporation in Van Nuys, California. 20 He says, "In accordance with our telephone 21 conversation" -- I see -- "yesterday, I have enclosed a 22 copy of Monsanto's most recent bulletin on Aroclor 23 1248" -- and that was one of our bulletins -- "as well 24 as our own toxicity information concerning this 25 product. " -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026259 157 1 Now, that would -- that would be an ext- - 2 that would be an extension of what was in the bulletin, 3 because this would be the toxicity information in 4 toxicology terms. 5 "Also enclosed is a reprint ent i tl ed The 6 Toxicity of Vapors of Aroclor 1248 and 1254 Reported to 7 Monsanto-Sponsored Work." 8 That's the Kettering work done on the 9 decomposition products of Aroclor 1242 and 1254 done by 10 Dr. Treon at Kettering in 1958. 11 Q So, again, this is an attempt where a customer 12 was requesting information concerning the toxicity or -- 13 and -- or health and safety effects concerning Aroclors? 14 A And we gave them everything that we had. 15 Q And you -- and you gave him the information? 16 A Generally, yes. 17 Q I'd like tor you to look at Document 029391 and 18 ask you if that (tendering) -- first of all, to identify 19 that, and -- and tell me if that is also a similar 20 instance where that -- 21 A Yes. 22 Q -- the same thinghappened. 23 A Yes. 24 Q Can you identify the document for me? 25 A The document is March 1st, '63. It,S'-to a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026260 158 1 Mr. D. N. Griftiths, Purchasing Department, Delco-Remy 2 Division, General Motors in Anderson, Indiana; and it -- 3 it -- it was material we sent to them at their request. 4 Q And what -- what specific material did you send, 5 them ? 6 A As you -- let me see. "Our bulletin covering 7 this compound will appear in the questions 1232 8 passed -- posed xn your mimeograph form, with the 9 exception of the No. 1 question concerning the toxicity 10 rating. As you know, Aroclor 1232 is a chlorinated 11 biphenyl, chlorinated to 32 percent by weight," and so 12 f or th. 13 It -- it -- it is a great deal of toxicity 14 information I gave to Mr. Griffiths. 15 Q Okay. I would like for you to identify several 16 other documents here, and then let you tell me if it's a 17 similar instance where you were trying to communicate 18 information concerning the Aroclors that Monsanto 19 manufactured to various customers that it had. 20 Could you please identify Document 025349 21 (tendering)? 22 A It's -- it's to -- to a -- a Mr. Fleming of 23 Industrial Hygiene and Occupational Health Branch, 24 Tennessee Valley Authority, in connection with a 25 specific hydraulic. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026261 159 1 Q And I'd like to also show you Document 02 53 50 ~ 2 and ask you to identify that (tendering). 3 And we'll keep these all in a stack for you. 4 A It's a discussion, obviously, from something t 5 Mr. Fleming asked in connection with -- with their 6 problems in -- in compression using Pydraul 625. 7 Q Okay. I'd like to also show you Document 8 016391 (tendering) and ask you to identify. Give me the 9 date and the name of the person that you wrote it -- 10 A This is November 1, 1967, and I wrote it to 11 Wilbur Speicher. 12 Q And who does he work for? 13 A He works for -- for Westinghouse Electric 14 Corporation. 15 Q Okay. I'd like to show you Document No. 29460 16 (tendering), and please identify that. 17 A John Hogan, Safety Director, General Tire and 18 Rubber Company, Textileather Division, P. O. Box 19 So-and-So, Toledo, Ohio. 20 Q All right. 21 A We transmitted to him information connected 22 with the handling and toxicity of these products. 23 Q I'd like to show you Document 029461 and ask 24 you to identify that (tendering). 25 A That's to Mr. -- this was a -- this i.4L -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026262 16 0 1 Dr. Alexander E. Earle,.Plant Physician,.FMC, the ' 2 American Viscose Division, Front Royal, Virginia. 3 This letter was composed for information 4 connected with the material itself, and it was dated May 5 19 , 1 97 0 -- . 6 Q Okay. 7 A -- to FMC. 8 Q Okay. Identify Document No. 026061 9 (tendering) . 10 A It's a -- a letter. "I'm enclosing a copy of 11 your filled-out Material Safety Data Sheet covering our 12 product, Thermanol FR Low-Temp. I'm sorry the tardy 13 reply for your letter is" so-and-so. And it is to 14 Mr. C. S. Boettger, Purchasing Agent, Sun Shipbuilding 15 and Drydock Corporation, Chester,.PA. 16 Q Okay. Finally, I'd like to show you 17 Document 025317. Please iden tify the date and wh 0 the 18 inf ormat ion was directed to ( tendering) . 19 A The date is ,January 18, 1977; Acute Toxi ci ty 20 Aroclor s request from Ford Mo tor Company. It i s to 21 Keith Le e, Indus trial Hygiene Section, Central Me di cal 22 Service at Ford Motor Company 23 Q Okay. 24 MR . LACEY: May I see that, Pi ea se. 25 MR . J ON ES : One second. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026263 161 1 BY MR. JONES: ' 2 Q Now, what I've got, I've assembled all of those 3 documents that you've just identified, and I have them 4 in that pile right there that is before you. Are thoseh 5 all inquiries, then, about -- or responses to inquiries 6 of customers concerning the health and safety effects 7 and proper handling of the Aroclor products? 8 A That's tr ue. 9 Q And those are your attempts to convey the 10 information concerning those health and safety effects 11 and proper handling of the Aroclors? 12 A That is correct. 13 Q And did you ensure that those were sent and 14 received by those customers? 15 A Yes. 16 Q How did you do that? 17 A We -- we had them typed. I ultimately signed 18 them,.put them in a envelope, and they were mailed. 19 Q And your se cr eta ry mailed them? 20 A She mail e d them. That is cor re c t. 21 Q Di d any of th ose ever com e ba ck? 22 A Yo u mean as nond el iv erabl e, a nything like that ? 23 Q Yes,r si r 24 A No. 25 Q Now,, tho se are j ust a sam pi e of -- of.-Jche types NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026264 162 1 of inquiries your customers were asking you about? 2 MR. LACEY: I object. You did not 3 lay the predicate for it; you did not 4 establish that he's looked for the files 5 to determine whether there are any more 6 than that at all. 7 BY MR. JONES: 8 Q Please answer the question. 9 A There were many hundreds of calls and 10 correspondence to customers who used the product, asking 11 for information or further information. 12 Q And so -- 13 A And we gave it to them. 14 Q And so based upon your -- your knowledge and 15 experience, then, that pile of documents that I have in 16 front of you is just not -- 17 MR. JONES: Just a second, . David. 18 MR. LACEY: I'm sorry. 19 A Is not the only ones? 20 BY MR. JONES: 21 Q -- is not the only ones? 22 A No. 23 Q Would there be several hundred more, or -- 24 A There should be. But much of it was handled by 25 phone and by the simple mailing of the documents. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026265 163 1 Q Okay. I'd like to also show you a document " 2 that is marked 024940 (tendering). Can you identify 3 that ? 4 A- That's an American Industrial Hygiene ' 5 Association Hygienic Guide on Chiorodiphenyls containing 6 42 and 54 percent chlorine. 7 Q Now, you said "diphenyl." Is that the same 8 thing as biphenyl? 9 A Tha t is cor r ect. Diphenyl is simply th elUC 10 correct way of s ay in g it. 11 Q Did you pr e pare that document? 12 A Mr. Whe el er and I prepared part of it and were 13 the advi sor s on the do cum ent itself, yes. 14 Q And was tha t a document which was publi shed in 15 the publ ic r ecor ds ? 16 A It was publ ished in the Journal of the Amer i ca; 17 Industri al Hygie ne A sso ci ation, and was printed as a 18 se par ate document an d was sold by them as an individual 19 document or in a boo k of documents containing as many 20 Hy gi eni c Gui des as y ou wanted, or the whole set if you 21 wished. 22 Q What is the American Industrial Hygiene 23 Asso cia tion ? 24 A It is the primary industrial hygiene 25 association in the world. -. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026266 16 4 1 Q And how widely are their publications 2 disseminated -- 3 A Worldwide. 4 Q -- in industry? 5 A Worldwide. 6 Q And in additi on to having those ar ticles 7 published, wh at did Momsa nto or people li ke yourse If do 8 with ani article like that? 9 A Well , we coll e c ted -- we bought them from the 10 AIHA and sent them as a se t to all of our pi ants. all of 11 the for eign plants, an d to all of the maj or sales 12 off ices for a source of information for them. 13 MR. LACEY : I'm going to want those. 14 MR. JONES : What did y ou say? 15 MR. LACEY : I'm going to want those. 16 MR. JONES : Oh, sure. 17 BY MR. JONES : 18 Q Have you ever heard of a Chemical Safety Data 19 Qde stio nnaire ? 20 A Some of the - - the letters you j ust asked f or, 21 in connection with providing inf ormation for those 22 Q Well , let me show y ou a document which is 23 mar ked 025338 through 0253 41 (tendering) . Can you 24 identify that? 25 A It's a request from Ford Motor Company, for us NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026267 16 5 1 to supply them with informati on on their Hazard Data 2 Form or their Chemical Safety Data Form. And we 3 transmitted the data we had i n our files and from our 4 own form onto the Ford form. 5 We did this to -- I don't -- dozens ,af6 companies asked; and where th e form was adequately pu t 7 together, we would do that, If it were -- if it -- i f 8 it was not possible to do tha t, then we would send th em 9 a collection of our toxicity data, and did that in ma ny 10 ca se s. 11 Ford happened to be -- happened to give out a 12 decent form. There were -- there were some, though, on 13 cards that just simply were not appropriate. So we 14 would send the card back and a whole pile of information 15 or bulletins and so forth, and say, "Here is the 16 information, and here's a summary of the toxicity," 17 using the Toxicity Summary, and let them try to put it 18 on their little card. 19 Q So are you saying,.then, that Ford was a little 20 more sophisticated than -- 21 A -- many, many companies that had their 22 professional crews. 23 If you'll notice, we got some of these requests 24 from -- from Purchasing Agents, because someone had told 25 the Purchasing Agents to go get this .information, I -- I NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026268 166 1 presume. We got some of th em. And -- and -- and we 2 sent i t in filled-out forms , i f the form was appro pr i a te 3 to f i 11 out; if we could pu t - - fit our data to th ei r 4 f orm. I n other words, if the f orm allowed enough 5 la tit ude to put it down, we di d. . ___ 6 Q So these Chemical Saf ety Data Questionnai res 7 were the n forms which the c ust omer sent to you whi ch 8 th ey req uested that you fill o ut? 9 A Ri gh t. 10 Q And what were the pur po se s of those forms ? 11 A Presumably, it's f or their information on the i r 12 sheet s. 13 Now, these are pre dicates to the current 14 compu ter -system era, where they wan ted these so th ey 15 coul d key-sort them, or som eth ing 1 ike that. That ' s w hy 16 they had specific forms, be ca u se we could have giv en 17 them a copy ot the AIHA Gui de. which gives them a 1 ot of 18 the s ame data; but they wan ted i t i n their way so they 19 coul d USie it in their own - - i n the ir systems. Ma ny of 20 these things went on key-so rt files 21 Q Okay. 22 23 (Conf er e nee off the record betw een 24 Mr. Jones and Mr. Crawf ord ) 25 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026269 167 1 BY MR. JONES: 2 Q Mr. Garrett, I'd also like to show you a 3 document which is marked as 032231 (tendering). Could 4 you please identify whether you wrote that, when you 5 wrote it, if you did, and who you sent it to?.... 6 A It's to an official in the Los Angeles County 7 Air Pollution Control District, and we provided them 8 with some information that they asked for. 9 Q well, just answer my question, though. When 10 was it written? 11 A March 24, 1969. 12 Q And did you,in fact, write that? 13 A Yes. 14 Q I'd like toshow you -- 15 BY MR. JONES: Just a second, David. 16 MR. LACEY: May I see it for a 17 moment ? 18 MR. JONES: One second, I'm not 19 going to be that long. 20 MR. LACEY: Okay. 21 MR. JONES: Okay. 22 BY MR. JONES: 23 Q I'd like to also show you a document which is 24 marked 029459 (tendering) -- 25 A Uh-huh. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026270 16 8 1 Q -- and please do the same thing. Just identify 2 it: the date, who wrote the letter - 3 A That's froiii -4 Q -- and who was it to? 5 A That's from Lynn Shaw, who's a -- who',s an 6 occupational -- who's the industrial hygiene -- at that 7 time, Chief of the Industrial Hygiene staff of the 8 Department of Health of the State of New Jersey. And it 9 was the same thing. It was an -- information they 10 wanted. 11 Q Would you please also identify 032240. 12 A That's the Michigan Water Resources Commission 13 people, asking for concerning Aroclors as far as its 14 toxicity to -- to their purviews, fish and wildlife. 15 Q Now, let's just identify now. 16 A It was to Mr. W. G. Turney, Michigan Water 17 Resources Commission in Lansing, Michigan. And this 18 gentleman asked for some information, and we provided 19 the information to him. 20 Q And what is the date of that? 21 A November 11 , 196 9. 22 Q Now, I'd like also to show you a document which 23 is marked 032246 (tendering). Can you identify that? 24 A This is dated January 26th, 1970. It's to 25 Mr. C. L. Gough, G-o-u-g-h, in the Indiana Sta-fee NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026271 16 9 1 Department of Health. And they asked for some ' 2 information, and we provided it to them. 3 Q Okay. 4 Now, all of those documents that we've just f 5 been discussing and that you have before you there in 6 the pile or in front of you: Those are all documents 7 that have been written by you? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And they were in response to information 10 requested by various Governmental agencies? 11 A That'scorrect. 12 Q And it was environ- --information concerning 13 the health effects of Aroclors and safe handling of 14 Aroclor s? 15 A And its effect on fish and wildlife. 16 Q And you supplied the information by those 17 letters -- 18 A Yes. 19 Q -- back to them and answered their questions? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And is -- would that bethe only inquiries that 22 you received during the time that you worked with 23 Monsanto from Governmental agents? 24 A No. 25 Q About how manywould youreceive? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026272 170 1 A That would be difficult to say; a number of ~ 2 them a year. 3 As you know, I was involved in the pollution 4 control business and was an official at one time in theh 5 Water Pollution Control Federation. And I would be 6 approached in the -- in the area of fishery and -- and 7 water pollution from that side of my duties at that 8 time. 9 Q So this is only, then, a representative sample 10 of the several -- 11 A That is correct. 12 Q -- inquiries that you received? 13 A That is correct. 14 Q And several of those were even on the 15 telephone. Is that correct? 16 A Yes, with a slip-in affair with an envelope 17 with the bulletins or something. I would slip it to 18 them. 19 MR. JONES: Pass the witness. 20 21 22 RE-EXAMINATION 23 24 QUESTIONS BY MR. LACEY: 25 Q Mr. Garrett, you are a retiree from Munsanto NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026273 1 after 35 years of employment? 171 2 A That is true. 3 Q Do you receive any retirement income from 4 Monsanto? 5 A Yes. . ........ 6 MR. JONES: Object to the question. 7 That is completely irrelevant to this 8 deposition. 9 MR. LACEY: It is not irrelevant. 10 MR. JONES: Certainly, it is -- 11 BY MR. LACEY: 12 Q How much do you -- 13 MR. JONES: -- what this man 14 receives. 15 BY MR. LACEY: 16 Q How much do you get by way of compensation from 17 Monsanto as a retiree of the company? 18 MR. JONES: You don't have to answer 19 those types of questions. 20 BY MR. LACEY: 21 Q Do you have any problems -- 22 MR. JONES: That's -- that's your own 23 personal business. 24 BY MR. LACEY: 25 Q Do you have any problems with telling^me that? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026274 17 2 1 A I would prefer not to answer that. 2 Q Dc> you hold -- do you own any sto ck i n 3 Monsanto ? 4 MR . JONES: Same -- sam e thing. ' 5 A I purchased it. 6 BY MR. LACE: Y: -- 7 Q Yo'U do own stock in Monsanto? 8 A A small amo u nt. 9 Q I see. How many shar es? 10 MR . JONES: You don't h ave to answer 11 th at if you don' t want to. 12 A I don't thin k it is proper to answer it. 13 BY MR. LACEY: 14 Q I see. Well , there's no question about your 15 bei ng a loy al Monsant o employe e, is there? 16 MR . JONES: He's not an em;pi oy ee. 17 A I' m not an employee. 18 BY MR. LACE Y: 19 Q Were yo u a 1 oyal Monsanto employe e? 20 A I don't know what you mean. You use -- you 21 make the word "1 oy al" sound na sty. 22 Q I see. Okay . Is the re any question about you 23 sentim ents ly ing w ith Monsanto in this law sui t? 24 A TO tell you the frank truth, . I do n' t know what 25 the lawsuit is much about. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026275 173 1 Q I see. 2 A But if -- you know. 3 Q Now, with regard to the memorandum that was 4 written to the Krummrich plant about the Medical ' 5 Department's opinion with regard to the eating-of 6 lunches in the Aroclor Department, I just want to be 7 perfectly clear: Did you or did you not at the same 8 time write similar memorandums to every -- with regard 9 to every other department in the plant? 10 A The letter was in connection with a discussion 11 and a question concerning Aroclors. However, at the 12 time -- 13 Q My question to you is a very specific -- 14 A -- the Medical Department -- 15 MR. JONES: Please let -- 16 MR. LACEY: No. ' 17 BY MR. LACEY: 18 Q My question is a -- 19 MR. JONES: Please let him finish -- 20 BY MR. LACEY: 21 Q -- very specific one -- 22 MR. JONES: -- his answer. 23 BY MR. LACEY: 24 Q -- and that is: Did you write a similar memo 25 regarding every other department at the planf^at the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026276 17 4 1 same time? 2 MR. JONES: Mr. Lacey, I would 3 appreciate you not interrupting the 4 witness. Let him answer his questions. 5 MR. LACEY: I'd like the que- -- I'< 6 like the answer to my question, which is 7 either " yes" or "no. " 8 MR. JONES : Let him answer it. 9 MR. LACEY: You told him yourself - 10 MR. JONES : Let him -- 11 MR. LACEY: I heard him in your own 12 examination tell him, "Just answer my 13 question," and that's what I'm going to 14 ask him to do. 15 MR. JONES: Well, let him answer it. 16 Don't -- 17 MR. LACEY: Fine. 18 MR. JONES: -- jump on his answer 19 before you -- 20 MR. LACEY: Let me ask -- 21 MR. JONES: -- ask the next question. 22 MR. LACEY: Let me ask the question. 23 24 (Discussion off the record) 25 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026277 1 BY MR. LACEY: 17 5 2 A Did you. at the same time you w rot e that 3 memoran dum about not eating lunches in the Aro cl or 4 De partm ent, write a similar memor andum rega rding each 5 other d epartment in the Krununrich plant? - 6 A I have no idea. 7 Q Okay. In fact, are you aware of w riting a 8 similar memo regarding any other department in the 9 Kr ummri ch plant at that time? 10 A On many occasions. 11 Q At that time? 12 A In -- in this general time area -- 13 Q I see. 14 A -- time space. 15 Q Okay. Why did you pick the AroclorDepartment 16 to write this particular memo regarding? 17 A It obviously resulted from a question on 18 Aroclor and eating. 19 Q When you say, "Itobviously resulted," what 20 tells you that? 21 A It said, "It is the opinion of the Medical 22 Department that eating lunches should not be allowed in 23 this department." 24 Q Well, what tells you there was any question i 25 that came in that that's responding t.o? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026278 176 1 A At the time -- at the time and through the 2 early part of my career in Monsanto, the Medical 3 Department -- and that included Dr. Kelly and the rest 4 of us -- felt that eating in the processing areas was 5 improper. We used every possible chance to say, "Do not 6 do it." 7 So this letter contains a double message: 8 Aroclor in specifics, and the whole practice of eating 9 in the process units. 10 Q My specific question to you iSi What tells you 11 that there was a question that came into the Medical 12 Department saying,."Is it okay to eat in the lunchroom 13 or in the operating room in the Aroclor Department?" I 14 A Well, I don't know, but it sounds like we're 15 answering a query. 16 Q Well, that -- 17 A That's my view, and that's my opinion of it: 18 We're answering a query. 19 Q What in the memo can you point to that -- that 20 leads you to believe that you're answering an inquiry? 21 A "It is the opinion of" -- why would the opinion 22 of the Medical Department be expressed in -- in -- in 23 this memo in connection with this problem if it had not 24 covered the entire plant and would have been sent to the 25 Plant Manager -- in this case, sent to the Safely NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026279 177 1 Director, who obviously queried us about something " 2 connected with eating in that Aroclor Department. 3 MR. CRAWFORD: David, he gave you 4 that same answer about 30 minutes ago -- 5 BY MR. LACEY: _ 6 Q Let me ask a question about that. 7 MR. CRAWFORD: -- to the same 8 question. 9 BY MR. LACEY: 10 Q When you made plant inspections and found 11 unsafe practices, did you send out memos like this to 12 advise people of those unsafe practices and what you 13 thought ought to be done about them? 14 A I ans- -- I -- every plant inspection I made, I 15 answered -- I finished with a letter report to the Plant 16 Manager; to the -- the contact in the plant, if it were 17 the hygienist and they had one, and they didn't in those 18 early days; or to the Safety Director, with copies to 19 Dr. Kelly and to our files. 20 Q Okay. And so then you must not have discovered 21 this problem on a plant tour? 22 A It -- it could have come from that kind of a 23 report or a letter. 24 Q I see. Okay. So it may not be an inquiry; it 25 may be a plant tour that led to this? -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026280 17 8 1 A It may have been a plant tour. 2 Q Now, Mr. Jones asked you whether the reference 3 to "our own experience" referred only to Monsanto 4 experience, or also to the experience of your customers;' 5 and you said that referred to not only Monsanto^s 6 experience, but that of your customers. Is that 7 correct? . 8 A It would be difficult to separate the two. 9 Q Well, with regards to your customers' 10 experience, you made no effort to investigate whether or 11 not your customers were having toxicological problems 12 with PCBs, did you? 13 A We had information from the -- our association 14 with their people in the meetings we went to at regular 15 intervals. 16 Q My question to you is: You made no effort to 17 determine whether or not your customers were having 18 toxicological problems with your PCBs, did you? 19 A I -- I don't see that that's germane. 20 No. But we didn't also make any effort to see 21 if they all wore mustaches or not. I mean -- 22 Q I understand. 23 A -- I don't see that it makes any difference. 24 Q Well, I think it makes some difference if you 25 say, "Well, we didn't know about any -probiems "with our NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026281 17 9 1 customers." It's a difference -- there's a difference 2 between whether you looked -- 3 A There is -- 4 Q -- to find out if there are any, or just none 5 of them came to your attention. -- 6 A There is little doubt they would have asked. 7 Q I see. And it's your testimony that you're not 8 aware of circumstances where people brought those 9 problems to the Medical Department. Correct? 10 A We had many, many, many requests from many, 11 many, many places about information. 12 Q No, I'm not saying about information. I'm 13 saying, brought to the Monsanto Medical Department 14 problems resulting from exposure of workmen to PCBs. 15 A No. 16 Q Okay. 17 Now, with regard to the document on Toxicology 18 and Safe Handling of Monsanto Aroclor, Document 18731 19 through 187B7 (tendering), if I understood the questions 20 that you were asked, you don't recall Monsanto in the 21 United States having a single document devoted solely to 22 toxicology and safe handling. Is that correct? 23 MR. JONES: I object to that 24 question. That's a mischaracterization 25 of his -- . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026282 I 80 1 THE WITNESS I just testified 2 MR. JONES: -- testimony. 3 MR. LACEY: Well, I just want to make 4 sure I -- - 5 THE WITNESS: That is not .true. 6 There are - 7 MR. JONES: Well, it mischaracterizes 8 his testimony. 9 BY MR. LACEY: 10 Q What documents are there - 11 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, wait just a 12 second. The court reporter's going to 13 quit. One at a time. . 14 BY MR. LACEY: 15 Q What bulletins are you aware of that Monsanto 16 put out in the United States devoteed solely to 17 toxicology and safe handling of Aroclors? 18 A We put out the bulletins you saw, the -- the 19 Hygienic Guides. 20 Q I see. Okay. 21 A We put out the Form 20s. We put out -- our 22 information and materials were involved -- were inserted 23 in many of the bulletins that went out on Aroclor in 24 general; and in -- particularly in the Tech Bulletins, 25 which also covered the -- the vapor pressures and other NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026283 181 1 mate rials. 2 Q Okay. Were -- now, let me -- let me sort these 3 out one by one. 4 You say that there were Hygienic Guides on PCBs 5 only. Ri ght ? -- 6 A That's right. 7 Q Were those given to customers on a regular 8 basis or only on an as-requested basis? 9 A They were published in the public -- in the 10 technical peer-reviewed press. They were also provided 11 by us to anyone who asked or anyone we felt was -- 12 needed such a document. 13 Q Okay. So that was contained in some larger 14 volume that dealt with -- 15 A Oh, yeah. 16 Q -- a lot of other chemicals besides -- 17 A No. 18 Q -- PCB s ? 19 A No. When it was -- the individual sheets were 20 individualized. They were folded to four-page sheets, 21 each individual one. We sent each -- any time anybody 22 queried us about -- about a product covered by one of 23 the sheets, we sent them a copy of the sheet. 24 Q You only sent out the Hygienic Guide series on 25 PCBs when a request came into Monsanto. Correct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026284 1 A No . 182 2 Q When ei se di d th ey go out ? 3 A We sent - - are y ou talkin g about this se r ies 4 (indicat ing) . 5 Q Yes, th e Hygieni c Guide. .-- 6 A We sent i t out w hen we we re asked . You' r e 7 right. 8 Q Okay. 9 A When we w ere req uest ed. 10 Q Now, what other documents did you send o ut that 11 were sol ely relate d to th e toxicol gy and safe ha ndling 12 of PCBs? 13 A We se: nt o ut the summaries of the toxicol ogy 14 data itself. 15 Q And those were only sent out when requested. 16 Correct? 17 A True. They came from -- from articles printed 18 in the technical press. 19 Q What other -- what other documents devoted 20 solely to PCBs did Monsanto send -- 21 A The section on safe handling in the Tech 22 Bulletins. 23 Q Okay. Now, that's not a document devoted 24 solely to the safe handling of PCBs; that's part of a 25 larger document, is it not? . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026285 1 A Tha t's tr u e . 1 83 2 Q This document that we've looked at, called "The 3 Toxicology and Safe Handling of Monsanto Aroclor," 4 Document 18731 through 18737, is devoted solely to 5 toxicology and safe handling, is it not? ' 6 A It is devoted solely to Aroclors. 7 Q And solely to the safe handling and toxicology 8 of that -- that product, is it not? 9 A I hate to say this to you, but -- but we've 10 written doc- -- we've written letters longer than that. 11 Q But that document, short though it be, is 12 devoted solely to the toxicology and safe handling of 13 Monsanto Aroclors, is it not? 14 A I assume that's true. I don't know from my own 15 personal knowledge. 16 MR. JONES: Well, just testify to 17 your own personal knowledge. 18 A I don * t know. 19 BY MR. LACEY: 20 Q Have you had difficulty in looking over that 21 short document and determining that's all it deals with? 22 A Not much difficulty. 23 Q And that is all it deals with? 24 A That is correct. 25 Q Okay. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026286 1 84 1 Now, I believe you told Mr. Jones that if you 2 have long documents, they tend not to get read. Is that 3 correct? 4 A In -- in -- in -- in cases, if you 5 differentiate the -audience. - 6 Q And isn't it a fact if you put in a short 7 section on toxicology and safe handling in the middle of 8 a document that's 30 or 40 pages long,.it's a lot less 9 likely that's going to get read than if you put out a 10 nice, short, succinct document like this one, devoted 11 solely to toxicology and safe handling (indicating)? 12 A I don't -- I don't know how to answer that 13 question. I really don't. 14 Q Well, isn't it a fact that when you bury a 15 section on toxicology and safe handling in the middle of 16 some Technical Bulletin, it's a lot less likely to get 17 read and heeded as part of some long document than to 18 put out a nice, short, succinct document like that one 19 (indicating) , which is devoted solely to that particular 20 topic? 21 A Your premise is correct, but you're pointing to 22 various documents that are not correct. 23 Q Well, let me point to this one right here, 24 "Toxicology and Safe Handling of Monsanto Aroclor," that 25 very short document you've referred to (indi carting) . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026287 1 85 1 A That -- that -- that document is -- is very 2 short. You're correct. It -- it covers approximately a 3 half a page of information on toxicology and a -- a 4 half a page on -- on first aid. There is virtually that 5 much information in connection with any of the' documents 6 we put out. 7 Q Well, my question -- 8 A It is not my idea of a -- of a -- of a top 9 document. It is their top document, because they have a 10 different audience than we have. 11 Q I see. But my question to you is: A separate 12 document like that on toxicology and safe handling is a 13 lot more likely to get read than if you bury the section 14 on toxicology and safe handling in the middle of some 15 much longer document. Correct? 16 A I would assume that's correct, but the -- the 17 information is not just theirs on the labels. And 18 that's the only thing they see when they receive the 19 brunt of this stuff. 20 Q I see. By the way, did the labels even say 21 that the material inside the dr urn was polychlorinated 22 bipnenyl? 23 MR. JONES: Do you have a label that 24 you want to him look at? 25 A I don't know. - NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026288 186 1 BY MR. LACEY: 2 Q You don't even know what was on the labels, do 3 you? 4 A I've seen 40,000 labels. 5 Q Okay. __ 6 A You have to show me the label. 7 Q My question to you is: You can't tell us, as 8 you sit here today, what was on those warning labels, 9 can you? 10 A I can tell that you when we put -- that we put 11 a separate label on connected with it being an -- a 12 chlorinated hydrocarbon -- a chlorinated hydro- -- 13 hydrocarbon. 14 Q My -- that wasn't my question. 15 My question to you was whether the label even 16 said that it was, as this book says, chlorinated 17 diphenyl. 18 MR. JONES: I object to the question 19 until you identify a particular label. 20 A I don't know. 21 BY MR. LACEY: 22 Q You do not know. 23 A Show me -- 24 Q Is that correct? 25 A You'll have to show me the label. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026289 1 87 1 Q Fine. 2 A And you'd have to show me the year the label 3 appeared. 4 Q Okay. Well, in fact, the labels that Monsanto 5 put out didn't even have year dates on them,- -did they? 6 A I haven't the foggiest notion. I didn't make 7 those labels. 8 Q Okay. 9 Now, you indicated that it was in cases of 10 gross misuse that Monsanto would stop selling PCB 11 products to customers who were misusing them. Is that 12 correct ? 13 A Uh-huh. Yes, that's what I said. 14 Q And you can only recall one incident of gross 15 misuse. Is that correct? 16 A Yes, that's correct. 17 Q And that was a case where -- 18 A Wait, wait, wait. We discussed where we'd 19 refused its im- -- initial use for the same reason, and 20 the -- in that case -- I think we discussed two cases. 21 Q Well, there wasn't any misuse. They never got 22 an ounce of it, did they? 23 A They did in -- for their test work,.yes. 24 Q I see. 25 A That's what we went to Newark,.Ohio, For. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026290 188 1 Q I see. So you -- you can think of three cases 2 where you refused to sell or stopped selling -- 3 A That's correct. 4 Q -- for gross misuse? ' 5 MR. JONES: Well, that is-a- 6 mischaracterization. 7 THE WITNESS: That is a 8 mischaracterization. It actually is. 9 BY MR. LACEY: 10 Q I see. Well, what's the mischaracterization? 11 A Well, in the first place, two companies that 12 were using -- had set up to use it as a test run asked 13 us -- and there were many companies, I'm sure, that 14 did -- that -- that did the -- that used it that were 15 perfectly legitimate and -- and it was agreed to. 16 In these cases -- it happened to be a case 17 where there was excessive exposure to fumes from it. 18 And we said, "No, we don't think it's a good idea, and 19 we would refuse to sell it to you on this basis." 20 The other case that we talked about here was a 21 case where a -- a company, obviously disregarding its 22 use and its -- and its intended use as a hydraulic 23 fluid, a high-pressure hydraulic fluid,.used it as an 24 open-faced -- open-faced brass-founding affair. In 25 open-faced molds, they poured brass f.rom a reverberatory NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026291 1 89 1 furnace on a -- a mold that had been sprayed with one of 2 our Pydrauls. 3 Q Now, let me understand what the misuse was. 4 They put PCB-containing materials on a mold - 5 they then put brass into -- . ...... 6 A Hot molten brass. 7 Q -- and that hot material would cause this stuff 8 to steam up into the air. Correct? 9 A It created an -- an -- an -- an evolution of 10 gas; but it also created an evolution of very acid gas, 11 which released the mold. And it was a good mold release 12 agent. I'm not going to argue with that. 13 Q Okay. But the use of a PCB-containing material 14 as a mold release agent would be a gross misuse. 15 Cor r ect ? 16 A Oh, indeed it was. 17 Q And that is something that it would be the 18 obligation of Monsanto to stop selling the PCB material 19 if it was being used for that purpose? 20 A That's -- 21 MR. CRAWFORD: Only talk about what 22 you know. 23 MR. JONES: I ob- -- I object to that 24 question as calling for a legal 25 conclusion. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026292 190 1 You can testify to the facts. 2 BY MR. LACEY: 3 Q Well, let me -- let me ask: Is that -- is 4 using a PCB-containing material to assist in mold ' 5 release the type of gross misuse that you thi.n-k- should 6 have caused Monsanto to stop selling the PCB material - 7 A Yes. 8 Q -- to thatcustomer? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Okay. Would it he gross misuse to use a 11 PCB-containing material if it was used in such a way 12 that hot metal could come into contact with it and 13 create these clouds of vapor and gas that you talked 14 about ? 15 A That -- that would be - 16 MR. JONES: Object to the question, 17 because it's not specific enough. 18 A -- conjecture, I think, in my case. If -- if 19 you have a specific incident -- it -- 20 BY MR. LACEY: 21 Q Let me ask a question, a very specific -- 22 assume that Monsanto learned that General Motors was 23 using a hydraulic fluid that contained PCBs in such a 24 way that in its foundries molten metal was being dropped 25 into pools of the fluid, and vapors were coming" up from NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026293 191 1 it where the workmen were working. Would that be a 2 gross misuse ? 3 MR. JONES: Same objection. It's not 4 specific. ' 5 A I would -- I don't -- your -- your .po-i-nt is 6 well made. I -- it -- it might be a gross misuse,.but 7 you'd have to know a hell of a lot more circumstances 8 than that. 9 BY MR. LACEY: 10 Q It -- it wouldn't be sufficient just to say, 11 "I've heard that," and not investigate it further; that 12 would require further investigation? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q Okay. And if -- if that were the circumstance 15 after you investigated, then it would warrant cutting 16 off the sales? 17 A It would warrant this -- the -- the -- the -- 18 the position that we could take in connection with it, 19 yes. 20 Q Okay. 21 Now, you testified that in 35 years you never 22 saw a case where anybody was injured from exposure to 23 PCB-containing materials in the workplace. Correct? 24 A That is correct. 25 Q And you also never went into, anybody''? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026294 192 1 workplace, other than a Monsanto workplace, to see how 2 it was being used or if people were being injured. 3 Isn't that correct? 4 A That is correct. 5 Q Okay. So while you never saw it, with* the 6 exception of Monsanto, you also never looked for it? 7 A I neverheardabout it, either -- 8 Q Okay. 9 A -- either; anyother of thepeople who did 10 handle it. 11 Q I see. 12 Now, you mentioned that you really couldn't go 13 into competitors' plants. Was Westinghouse a competitor 14 in the sale of PCB products with Monsanto? 15 A I didn't go i nt o Westinghouse plant. beca use 16 th ey di d no t invite ime i nto their plant . And we j ust 17 de al t with -- with their industrial hyg iene gr oup and 18 th ei r medical group; Dr. Kelly, through the years. ov 19 th e phone. 20 Q My question i s: They weren't a compe titor w 21 you, were they? 22 A I haven't the vaguest notion of their spread of 23 materials, whether it -- 24 Q I see. 25 A -- competed with any of ours'or not. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC, STLCOPCB4026295 1 93 1 Q I see. Well, the the reason you dian 2 into plants like Westinghouse and TVA and Ford and see 3 how they were using your PCB products isn't because you 4 requested the opportunity and they said,. "No, I'm sorry, 5 you're one of our competitors, , so we won't- let" you in," 6 is it? 7 A I haven't the vaguest notion. 8 Q You never requested the right to go into a 9 Westinghouse facility and see how they were using PCBs, 10 did you? 11 A No, and they never requested the right to come 12 in our place that I know of, to look at -- at our whole 13 company spread, either. 14 Q You never requested the right to go into a TVA 15 facility and look at how they were using your PCB 16 materials, did you? 17 A No. 18 Q And you never requested the right to go into a 19 Ford facility and see how they were using your PCB - 20 A That's right. 21 Q -- materials,.did you? 22 A But we had no reason to believe that the 23 discussion with their hygienists and toxicologists and 24 medical people was incorrect when they explained to us 25 the methods that were used in handling it. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026296 1 94 1 Q Well, if there was something that brought to 2 your attention that they did have a problem, would it 3 then be appropriate for you to seek permission to go 4 into their plants and see how the product was being ~ 5 used? -- 6 A No. Unless we had an awful lot of illnesses 7 and sicknesses, I wouldn't have known about it in any 8 ca se. 9 Q Well, if you knew about it, however, 10 Monsanto -- 11 A We would try to investigate it through -- 12 through the sales people that handled that particular 13 sales pa rt of the contra ct, yes. 14 Q I see. 15 When wer e Mater ial Safety Data Sheets first 16 used at Monsanto ? 17 A Chemical Saf ety Data Sheets and those things 18 were out probably in the late ' 40's. 19 Q And were th ose things -- 20 A Well, wait. We contributed to -- to -- to 21 the -- the sheets put out by the Manufacturing Chemists 22 Association, to the -- the American Petroleum Institute, 23 to the National Safety Council, to the American 24 Industrial Hygiene Association, and any other of those 25 of -- of sheets that were, in our opinion, of NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4026297 195 1 professional use or value. Now, I don't recall that we 2 ever did one on PCBs, except the AIHA one; but I could 3 be wrong. 4 In addition to that, we made 155 of our own 5 that were Monsanto data sheets that we gave t-crcustomer s 6 and to our plants, and they covered a whole host of 7 Monsanto materials. And it is possible that one of 8 those were there. They have long since been 9 dis continue d. 10 Q Okay. The only sheets that you can 11 specifically recall the Medical Department preparing on 12 PCB materials, as opposed to other materials, is this 13 Hygienic Guide series? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 Q And that's the document that's numbered 24940 16 through 24943. Is that correct? 17 A That's tr ue. 18 Q Now, this Hygienic Guide series was actually 19 prepared by you and Elmer Wheeler. Correct? 20 A We prepa red it -- a good deal of it, yes. 21 Q Who else prepared it p 22 A Well, we had -- they had a committee that did 23 the firming up of the informa ti on that picked up the 24 document here and -- and most of the -- of the -- the -25 the information that they loo ke d up the references. And NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026298 1 96 1 we did the majority of the writing in the wording. ~ 2 Q You provided the substance to it - 3 A Tha t's tr ue . 4 Q -- and they put it in a form -- 5 A That is right. ..... 6 Q -- consistent with their own documents? 7 A And we certainly provided that data, yes. 8 Q So the substance of this Hygienic Guide series 9 on c'nlorodiphenyls came from Monsanto? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Okay.Do you know -- strike that. 12 You've testified that you think that there were 13 many, many, many other companies that you corresponded 14 with about the safe handling of PCBs, other than the 15 ones shown to you by your lawyer in this group of one, 16 two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight -- eight 17 letters and one memo covering from 1961 through 1977. 18 Is that correct? 19 MR. JONES: I object to the question 20 Mr. Garr e11 is not represented by me. 21 MR. LACEY: I see. 22 MR. JONES: H e is not my lawyer -- 23 MR. LACEY: I see. 24 MR. J ON ES : --- or I am not his 25 lawyer. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026299 1 97 1 A In -- in -- it ha s been my recollection that 2 th e:r e were many more memos and telephone conver sa tions, 3 wi th subsequent passage of i nf ormati on, than tho se. 4 BY MR . LACEY: 5 Q Regarding PCBs? -- 6 A Regarding PCBs. 7 Q And do you have a ny informa ti on about w hy it i; 8 tha t the Monsanto lawyer o nly showed you the se 9 do cum ents? 10 A Monsanto has a -- a -- had inf or ce and still 11 doe s, I understand, a Document Reten tion Pro cgr am tha t 12 woul d have taken those doc uments out and destroy ed them, 13 Q So we have -- 14 A Yes. 15 Q -- we have a few that are 1 ef t ov er her e by -- 16 A That's correct. 17 Q -- by good luck? 18 A That is correct. 19 Q I see. 20 Do you recall, in the corre spon denct5 ba ck and 21 for th with the Ford Motor Company re garding :Py dr aul 312 22 tha t they requested inform ation on w hat chem:Leal s were 23 i n the product? 24 A No. What they di d was -- and that':s no t j ust 25 For d Motor Company, becaus e many, ma ny compainies di d NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026300 1 98 1 the scientific -- I recall some of the companies that 2 we did the full ones on, such companies as lumber 3 companies and so forth. And on all of the products that 4 they particularly purchased from us, their Purchasing 5 Departments generally sent them to us. ' 6 In the case of Ford,, they sent this one to us. 7 In -- in fact, this guy Crushaw, Creshaw,.sent it to 8 Elmer. And we filled it out on their form. This is 9 their form. 10 Q Yes. My - 11 A We -- we filled them out on a lot of different 12 forms. 13 Q My question to you is: Do you recall that in 14 the sequence of correspondence, Ford ultimately asked 15 Monsanto to tell them what chemicals were in the Pydraul 16 product? 17 A I don't recall that. It's possible. 18 Q And the practice of Monsanto was not to tell 19 people what chemicals were in the product. Isn't that 20 correct? 21 A No, not necessarily. It is correct in the case 22 where we had contractual obligations to someone else who 23 owned the formulation patent. 24 Q Well, let me show you one of the letters that 25 Mr. Jones showed you earlier, Letter -No. -- or Document NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026301 199 1 No. 25349, dated November 14th, 1 963 , from you to an ' 2 industrial hygienist at the TVA, relating to Pydraul 625 3 (tendering). 4 And they obviously asked for what the 5 composition of that fluid was, and you ref used__to 6 divulge it. Correct? 7 A I did not refuse to divulge it. I was told not 8 to -- to divulge it, because it -- we had contractual 9 obligations with the owner of the patent, which was not 10 Monsanto. 11 Q The point is: You did not supply the 12 information -- 13 A No. 14 Q -- that they requested? 15 A The data that we supplied them was on Pydraul 16 625; not on the Aroclor content, but the finished 17 full -- 18 Q And what they asked for was, "Tell us what 19 chemicals are in that product." 20 A That * s tr ue. 21 Q And you tell them, "We cannot tell you." 22 A That is correct. 23 Q Okay. Now, the correspondence I see here with 24 the TVA and what your lawyer has shown you all relates 25 to -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026302 200 1 MR. JONES: Again, Mr. Lacey, I must 2 object. I do not represent Mr. Garrett. 3 MR. LACEY: I see. 4 BY MR. LACEY: ' 5 Q The correspondence that the Monsanto-lawyer has 6 shown you with the TVA all relates to this fluid, 7 Pydraul 625, does it not (tendering)? 8 A Tha t's tr ue -- 9 Q Did you -- 10 A -- to the best of my knowledge. Is that 11 another one? No, that's different. 12 Okay. Go ahead. 13 Q Do you have any recollection of having provided 14 any information to the TVA on PCB-containing dielectric 15 fluids, as opposed to hydraulic fluids? 16 A I don't recall. We provided so damn much 17 information, I really don't recall. 18 Q Well, Pydraul 625 was not a dielectric fluid, 19 was it? 20 A No. It -- if it -- if it had the -- the 21 Pydraul name, it was a hydraulic fluid. 22 Q Okay. And the only correspondence that I see 23 here that dealt with Westinghouse was the letter of 24 November 1st, 1967, from you to Mr. Speicher, which sent 25 him a copy of your Inerteen label (tendering). Is that NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026303 201 1 correct? 2 A His label, I suspect. Inerteen was not a 3 Mon santo patent, trademark. 4 Q Well, now, Monsanto made Inerteen, didn't th ey ? 5 A Monsa nto made the -- the -- the -- the -- the 6 PCB that went into it. 7 Q Well, Monsanto actually made the Inerteen, 8 didn't it? 9 MR . JONES: I object to that. 10 That's 11 A I don't know 12 MR . JONES: -- a mischaracterization. 13 BY MR. LACEY: 14 Q I see. Well , look at the first sentence. It 15 says, "I am sending y ou a copy of our Inerteen label, 16 which you requested i n your letter of October 17th." 17 There's no q uestion but what the Inerteen label 18 that's referred to th ere is Monsanto's Inerteen label? 19 A We probably blended the product for them. But 20 it's their label; it' s their trademark. 21 Q You mean the label would have -- 22 A They provide d us with the labels. We put the 23 labels on the drums, If we thought the label needed 24 cor recting,.we would tell them. 25 I don* t reca 11 anything about this, irer what NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026304 202 1 they're talking about. 2 Q But that's the only correspondence that you 3 have here with anybody at Westinghouse about a product 4 that involved PCBs, is it not? ' 5 A It's in the correspondence I see in -this pile, 6 yes. 7 Q Yes. And you don't recall sending anything 8 else besides one of Monsanto's Inerteen labels to 9 Westinghouse to be -- 10 MR. JONES: Objection. That's a -- 11 A I don't believe - 12 MR. JONES: Objection. That's a 13 mischaracterization of the testimony 14 again. 15 MR. LACEY: I see. 16 BY MR. LACEY: 17 Q Do you recall sending any document at the 18 request of Monsanto, other than the Inerteen label 19 referred to in the letter of November 1st, 1967, 20 Document 16391? 21 MR. JONES: Objection to the question 22 as being vague. 23 What other information are you 24 referring to? 25 MR. LACEY: Any. . ~ NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026305 203 1 BY MR. LACEY: 2 Q I'm trying to find out if you sent any' 3 inf orma tion. 4 A Certainly. ' 5 Q What? - . ...-- 6 A We sent all the toxicology data- that was 7 available to Mr. Speicher. 8 Q Where are the transmittal letters sending that? 9 A I haven't the foggiest. 10 Q I see. But you have a specific recollection of 11 having done that? 12 A I've -- I've known Wilbur for years. 13 Q That's not my question. 14 A He would never have let us get by without 15 providing him with every nickel's worth of information 16 we had. 17 Q Okay. So he would have requested that, and 18 then you would have responded by -- 19 A That's correct. 20 Q -- sending him that? 21 A That is correct. 22 Q What would that toxicological information have 23 consisted of? 24 A Copies of -- of -- of published documents and 25 copies of our own summaries. . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026306 20 4 1 MR. CRAWFORD : You1've got two 2 minute s. 3 MR. LACEY: Pa ss the witness. 4 MR. JONES: That' s it. 5 6 (Discussion off the record) 7 8 THE VIDEOTECHNICIAN: This concludes 9 the deposition of Mr. Jack T. Garrett, and 10 the time is 7:56 p.m. 11 MR. LACEY: And everyone has missed 12 their plane. 13 14 (The deposition was concluded 15 at 7:56 p.m.) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026307 1 THE STATE OF____. 205 2 3 COUNTY OF................................. * 4 5 I, JACK T. GARRETT, hereby cer ti.f y--that I 6 have read the foregoing transcript of my testimony given 7 in the foregoing numbered and styled case, and that same 8 is true and correct to the best of my knowledge and 9 belief. 10 I further certify that any and all 11 corrections have been made on a separate page and 12 attached hereto. 13 SIGNED on this the_____ _day of- , 14 19 87;. 15 16 JACK T. GARRETT 17 18 SWORN TO AND SUBSCRIBED BEFORE ME on this 19 the --------- day of ~ -............................. ~ , 1987 . 20 21 22 Notary Public 23 24 25 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4026308 206 1 THE STATE OF TEXAS * 2 COUNTY OF. HARRIS * 3 4 I , LINDA C. BAKER , a Cert if i ed Shor th and 5 Repor ter, her eby cer tify that th e f or ego ing ' testimony 6 was g iven bef ore me af te r the Wi tness ha d been fi r st 7 duly sworn. 8 I f ur the r cer tify th at I pr e pa r ed thi s 9 tr ans cript an d that the f oreg oin g 205 pa ges const itute a 10 courpl ete and correct copy of the tr an scr ipt of th e 11 proce edings. and tha t the ori gi n al is be ing g iven to the 12 attor ney taki ng same , to be f il e d by him if ne ce s sary. 13 I further cer tify that I am nei ther a 11 or ney 14 for, related to, nor em pi oy ed by any of th e parti es to 15 the 1 awsuit i n which this deposi tion wa s ta ken; f ur th e r, 16 I am neither related to nor empl oy ed by any attor ney of 17 recor d in thi s cause , nor do I h ave a f i nan cial i ntere st 18 in th e matter 19 GIVEN UNDER MY HAND AND SEAL OF OFFICE in -4a 20 Houston, Texas, on this the. .day of June, 1987. 21 , _ L i J, 22 NDA e. BAKER, ^SR, RPR 23 Certification Number: 505 Date of Expiration: December 31, 1988 24 Address: 2900 Smith Street, Suite 104 Houston, Texas 77006 25 Phone: 713/523-3767 ' NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4026309 1 2 Page Line 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LAWYER'S NOTES NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. 207 STLCOPCB4026310