Document 1yrbLJ6mGjJGx18MyQ8n4wozZ

FILE NAME: Fibreboard (FIB) DATE: 1982 Nov 13 DOC#: FIB026 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition of Henry A. Perlmutter B'^ 3 SL v- BE IT REMHM3ERED that pursuant to Notice, 1 2 the deposition of HENRY A- PERLMUTTER, M.D. was taken at the Law Offices of LESHER,-CLAUSEN AND BORODKIN, 3773 East 3 Boradway, Tucson, Arizona* before R.G. Baarstad, a Notary 4 Public in and for the County of Pima, State of Arizona, 5 on the 13th day of November, 1382, commencing at 9:35 a.m. 6 on said day, in a certain cause now pending m the 7 Superior Court of San Francisco County, State of California 8 9 . HENRY A. PERLMUTTER, M.D., 10 having been first duly sworn upon his oath, testified as 11 12 follows: - . 13 EXAMINATION 14 15 BY MR. KAZAN: 16 Q Would you state your full name for the 17 record, please? Henry A. Perlmutter, p-E-R-L-M-U-T-T-E-R. 18 A 19 Q And you're a physician and surgeon? 20 A Yes. q Can you tell us where you're present 21 22 business address is located? A I'm with the Veteran's Administration m 23 24 Tucson. 25 Could you tell us, please, doctor, where PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER J i- 1 and when you were born? A I was born on, August the 15th, 1911. 2 q And in what city was that? 3 ,, A Vlinnipeg.^ Manitoba, Canada. \ 4 q Were you raided and educated in that 5 6 area as well? A wo. I had dual citizenship. My parents 7 ,,ere American citizens residing in Canada when I was born 8 And I had my education in San Francisco, Berkeley and 9 10 Chicago and Detroit. q Your elementary and high school and 11 under graduate education was all in California? 12 r^' 13 A Correct. _ __ q 14 And can you tell us, please, when and 15 where you attended medical school? A I attended medical school at Northwester 16 university Medical School in Chicago from 1933 through 17 18 1937. q And did you do an internship after that? 19 A Yes, I did. We had our bachelor of 20 on medicine degree upon-the completion of the academic porti 21 22 of our training. And upon completion of the internship, 23 we were granted our M.D., which was in 1938. q Can you tell us, please, where you did 24 25 your internship? PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER n -ST" -| A In Santa Clara County Hospital in San 2 Jose, one of the suburbs there, Campbell. 3 MR. HOTHCM: Steve, excuse me. I thought. 4 that before we really get .'into' .the deposition,v that you . " 5 would take care of the preliminaries, and you were just 6 asking a few preliminary questions to get the name and 7 address on the record. 8 I think we should have a stipulation 9 here that the deposition'is taken pursuant to N o t i c e t h a t 10 we also have a limiting order indicating that it's going 11 to be limited only to the action that's Noticed or set 12 forth in the Notice. We'll be appending a copy of the 13 Court Order to the deposition itself. 14 --- MR. KAZAN: Well, first of all, it's my 15 understanding that the deposition is taken pursuant to 16 Notice and under California law, whatever the California 17 Code provides with respect to objections and other 18 formalities will apply to this deposition. 19 It's my further understanding that 20 California practice and the Court has ordered that only 21 one attorney for each party is to participate in the 22 deposition. I don't know whether by virtue of you speak- 23 ing, Mr. Hothem, that that's an indication that you will 24 be doing the questioning for Fibreboard. It was my under- 25 standing that you were not intending to do that. So I'd PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER like to find out who the designated representative of 1 2 Fibreboard is for purposes of this deposition. MR. HOTHEM: Mr. Kazan, I don't mean to 3 get technical. What I want to-do is proceed with Dr. 4 . 5 Perlmutter1s deposition.. My only reason for mentioning it at this 6 time is it's traditional in the depositions we take to 7 begin the deposition with a statement as to the nature of 8 the deposition, it's being taken in one action, that i t s 9 the Crittenden action, it's being taken pursuant to Notice 10 in that action, and it's being taken pursuant to a Court 11 12 Order. 13 ' . . Now, rather than take up time now in going into these items, I think it's enough to state thos 14 at the beginning of the deposition and to get into Dr. 15 Perlmutter's testimony just as soon as we possibly can so 16 17 we don't string out the deposition. MR. KAZAN: That's fine. 18 MR. HOTHEM: Nancy will be asking 19 20 questions for Fibreboard. MR. KAZAN: I think for the record, it 21 22 should be clear that this deposition is being taken pursuant to a Notice captioned in the case of Crittenden 23 24 vs. Fibreboard. _ The deposition transcript and video tape 25 PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER " v '-mi a I yt ' 'I 1 1 'Is 1 may have relevance or application in other litigation. 2 And Fibreboard is on notice of that potential. 3 I presume-by virtue of the fact that \ 4 Fibreboard is here represen*'teVd .*by two attorney^ fX rom your ^ . 5 office, one attorney from your Seattle counsel, and the 6 company's own general counsel, that you in fact are here 7 prepared to participate and cross examine the doctor as 8 fully as you feel appropriate to protect your rights. 9 And if you'd like, I'd be glad to proceed 10 with the deposition from the point at which it was inter- 11 rupted. 12 MR. HOTHEM: ,,These matters have all been 13 taken care of in court, and there is a protective order 14 that is designed to protect Dr. Perlmutter from this kind 15 of problem. 16 There's no reason for you and I to be 17 putting a lot of stuff on the record, making a lot of 18 recitation on the record. 19 I'd suggest that we proceed with the 20 deposition. 21 MR. KAZAN: Precisely what I was doing 22 before. 23 MR. HOTHEM: All right. 24 MR. KAZAN: Very well. 25 Q Doctor, let's resume, if we could. PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER You indicated that, when we" were inter 1 2 rupted, you did your residency in the San Jose area of 3 California? A 4 ' \ I did my>d.ttternship, yes. v Q And at the conclusion of the internship, 5 6 did you enter into the practice of medicine m a private 7 capacity? A Not immediately. I went to Los Angeles 8 and took my state board examinations. And I visited the 9 10 Queen of Angels Hospital. I knew the Mother Superior 11 there because I had been in Santa Ana General Hospital 12 working as an instructor while going to medical school. 13 So I visited the Sisters there. And they talked me into 14 staying on as a general practice resident. They took me 15 into the room where they usually interviewed Monsignor's 16 and Bishops, and I signed. At any rate, I was there for approximate]y 17 18 six months, after which time I came to Berkeley, and 19 started practice. 20 Shortly after starting in practice, I 21 started working half time for Pabco as a physician m 22 their dispensary. q This would have been then somewhere 23 24 around the end of 1939, beginning of *39? 25 A T h a t 's right, '38, beginning of 39. PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER ______ r --------------- -- !-------------- ^ ----------------- 1-- w 1 Q Did you remain in private practice in 2 the Berkeley area for a period- of time? A Yes, I did. I remained half time at 3 . \ Pabco and half time w i t h ^ private practice, Until World 4 - . ' 5 War II started. And I was making rounds in the Providence 6 Hospital, when I read the President state that we were m 7 a State of War with Japan, and that we probably would 8 shortly be with Germany. So I went down and volunteered 9 the next day, and within a few months, I was in the Army. 10 - q How long did you serve in the Army? 11 A I served from '42 to '46. About October 12 _ I don't remember the exact date -- October or November, 13 I had terminal leave and I don't know when it terminated. 14 ___ q To the end of '45 or '46? 15 A '46, yes. 16 Q Can you give us some idea of what kind 17 of medical services you provided in the Army, where you 18 were stationed and what you did? 19 A I was originally with the 96th Infantry. 20 I was originally with the 1st Medical Regiment, which was 21 an antiquated military set-up. They disbanded the 1st 22 Medical Regiment. And through inadvertance, I was sent 23 to Carlisle Barracks for the advanced course in field 24 medicine. S i n c e ,1 never had the beginning course, it was 25 kind' o f -difficult. And they asked me how I happened to be PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER i P' r^ I 111 * 10 there. And, of course, it was obvious that'some PFC, who 1 is responsible for the destiny of medical officers, pressed 2 the wrong button, and I didn't have the necessary field 3 . \ 4 experience for the ran k .^ \ But I was sent, following this, since I 5 was in this advanced course, I became an instructor at th 6 96th Division, which was set up for the 96 Divisions, which 7 8 was then for approximately two years, when I volunteered for overseas duty, and went in as a replacement medical^ 9 10 officer to Africa. . And at the tail end of the Tunisian 11 I 12 campaign, following which, on my promotion, which was -- 13 I commanded a small division field hospital known as the 14 Clearing Company. And then I had been promoted on the 15 last day I was in the states, and the promotion came there When I was in Africa, they said, "Well, 16 you have too much rank" or something, or this was in Itali 17 18 I can't remember. From there I went to Italy. From Italy, 19 20 I was stationed with the 36th General Hospital. And I was 21 then put on detached"duty to the Surgeon General's office 22 And I remained there until the invasion of southern Franc, 23 And I then -- I was pulled out and put in back with the 24 36th General Hospital, which is the Wayne State Medical 25 School, Detroit Receiving Unit. And following that, I PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER 11 ,,as assigned to Dijon - I don't know if you want all thes 1 2 details. ` q Please. - 3 A I was assigned to Dijon. We were first 4 "S' . ' ' .. j at Exon Province. And following this, we went up to Di^or 5 And then I was pulled back to Marseille into the Surgeon 6 General's office again. And I was there until the end of 7 the war. And I was flown home in the Green Project. And 8 arrived home at the end of October or November. I had 9 some terminal leave, and I d o n 't remember the exact amount. 10 q What rank did you obtain at the time you 11 12 left the service? - A Well, I went in as First Lieutenant. 13 Because I went to this advanced course, I rapidly became 14 a captain and then a Major. And then I ended up as a 15 16 Lieutenant Colonel. q And after returning from military service , 17 18 what was your next professional employment? A I resumed my practice and my half time 19 20 position at Pabco. And I was -- my plan always had been to 21 22 go into general practice, as my mentors in medical school stated, that everyone should become a doctor first, meamr.g 23 they should know something about general practice before 24 25 they went into a'specialty. And I was pursuing this PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER IA -- ^ I I AS. 1 course, and planned to go back into training, which I 2 did in around '50, 19 50. And .1 went to San Joaquin Count} 3 Hospital, which was at French Camp, a suburb of Stockton. 4 And this permitted me to^ctq some of my generalvvpractice "% ' ' - 5 while I was up at French Camp. ' 6 And then I wanted to take my training at 7 the University Hospital, so I had the opportunity to do . 8 some work with pathology. And I took a residency in 9 pathology at Highland-Alameda County. And meanwhile, *I 10 had applied to the unit I was with overseas, in which I 11 knew all the professors, and they told me that they would 12 make a spot available for me January 1 of the next year. 13 And -1 went back to Detroit Receiving and took my training 14 in surgery. * 15 Q That was January of 1952? * 16 A Nineteen -- I have to look it up here. 17 I forget which exact date. It was -- let's see. Yeah, 18 it was '52. '52. I reported for duty in '52. 19 Q And you spent three years in a residency. 20 A Well, it was a little more than a resi 21 dency. From '52 to mid '55, so that was three and one- 22 half years. And I had this half-year. So I actually had 23 five years training all together. 24 Incidentally, during the time I was back 25 in general practice, before I started my residency train- PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER 13 1 ing, I worked with my old professor in pathology, in his 2 hospital, Herrick Memorial Hospital in Berkeley. And I, 3 in all the spare time I had, I did autopsies and read \ 4 slides with him. This is, in preparation for s'urgery N * . . 5 training. Pathology is so valuable in this. " - 6 Q Had it been your intention, from the tim< 7 you completed your internship, to point your training and 8 career towards general surgery? 9 A Yes. I planned to take five years, four jO to five years, in general practice, and then go into 11 surgery. And then the War came along, and my plans went -J2 slightly awry. And X had to ,,take some additional work to 13 save the -- the money I saved was not adequate to go back 14 after the Army. I had a family. -J5 g Now, during the time you were doing your 16 residency and training in Detroit, did you also serve as 17 Chief Resident in Surgery? -jg Yes. I went through the various steps 19 and became -- the professor gave me my choice of being 20 chief resident in one of two main hospitals. There were 21 multiple satellite hospitals we had peripheral to our 22 training. And he asked me where I wanted to go. And I 23 said I wanted Detroit Receiving. And I was given the 24 appointment as Chief Resident of Detroit Receiving. 25 Q Did you also have a teaching position PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER / during the time your were a_ resident? A Yes. I was an assistant instructor in surgery. training, q what . \ And at Jthe completion of your surgical "% ' did you do next professionally? A Well, I started practice in Berkeley. And I was visited by my professor a few years afterwards. And he was scolding me because I did n 't continue with an academic appointment. And he wrote to the then chief of _ Head of the Department of Surgery at the University of California. And I was given an appointment as an instruct or, from which I was promoted to Assistant Professor these were clinical appointments -- Assistant Clinical Professor. And I was assigned to San Francisco General Hospital. They gave us our preference as to where we wanted to be assigned in the University set up. Q And how long did you continue in the practice of general surgery and with these facility appointments in the San Francisco Bay area? A Until roughly '71; one, because of my arthritis, I came to Tucson. And after I was here for some time, I was appointed as an -- I guess I was an adjunct associate professor. And then I subsequently was 0' _X d o n 't know if I was an assistant initially or -- no, PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER 1 I was appointed adjunct associate professor in '72 to '78. 2 And then from '78 to now, I was made adjunct professor of 3 surgery. ' \ Q Can you -give us some idea of what the 4 .' duties and responsibilities are of an adjunct professor 5 6 of surgery here at the University of Arizona Medical 7 School? A Well, I taught students and residents, 8 and I took them through various surgerical procedures . .^ 9 10 until my hand, my left hand, became persistently more 11 crippled, and I couldn't do that. That was about four or 12 five years ago. - I still am present at committee meetings 13 14 and-at conferences, and I'm still on the faculty, except 15 that right now, there's some question about my age. And 16 you're supposed to be retired -- originally, it was 65, 17 when I was here, they wanted to retire me. And then that 18 was changed, and then it was 70. And then I got through 19 with it. I don't know what is going to happen next. Thes 20 are annual appointments, so that's the story. 21 Q And you indicated earlier that you were 22 with the Veteran's Administration here in Tucson? 23 A Correct. . q Could you tell us what your position is 24 r' 25 with the Veteran's Administration? PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTER ) A I'm Chief of Staff. And I'm responsible for the professional services and the quality of care rendered patients. How longwave you held that position? Q A Since I came'here in -- what was it, '71 or '72. I was ?Jashington's Valentine to this hospital. I remember it was on Valentine's Day that I came here. q And during the course of the years that you have been here, you served on various professional ^ committees? A Practically every committee of consequence in the hospital, many of which I was chairman. Q During the years that you practiced in the-Berkeley area, did you have staff priviledges at any of the local hospitals. A Yes. I had staff priviledges at 3rook- side Hospital in San Pablo, which is a suburb of Richmond! and Herrick Memorial Hospital, at Highland General Hospital, ,,here I attended as a consultant for years. I think I got a twenty-year pin. At the University of California; at the San Francisco General Hospital, where I was a consult ant; at Alta Bates Hospital, where I was on courtesy staf..; and at Childrens Hospital, courtesy staff. Alta Bates was in Berkeley and childrens Hospital was in Oakland. 0 And can you tell me, doctor, whether you PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER hold any board certifications in your speciality? 1 A. I'm certified, in general surgery and I'm 2 a fellow of the American College of Surgeons. 3 q I'd like^to go back for a moment, doctor, 4 if we could, and discuss a little bit about your medical 5 school training in the years -- I think you said 1933 to 6 1937 -- through mid '37 -- wait. Yes, '37. 7 And I'd like to ask you, doctor, if you 8 recall whether, during that education, you had' any educatijcon 9 or were given any information concerning dust related 10 11 diseases? A 12 We didn't have any course that specifically dwelt on this problem. We did in pathology discuss 13 pneumoconiosis in a rather superficial manner. We didn't 14 delve into it. The various nuances of the problem were 15 not that well known, but these were dust-related diseases. 16 Q Can you tell me what you learned in the 17 course of your medical school training about pneumoconiosij: 18 19 or the tyoes of pneumoconioses? A It's a disabling disease caused by various 20 21 substances, the most'-common and devastating of which is 22 silicosis. Silicosis is derived from quartz rock and 23 asbestos was considered among these. q Was' asbestos dust considered one of the 24 25 pneumoconiosis causes? PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER V I I l3* c* 1 2 A Yes. " Q In your medical school training, were yoi 3 aware of a disease called asbestosis? - \ 4 A We were^'t*oald there was a disease related % * . ' - 5 to this and had some inflammatory process. And it was . 6 never gone into detail, never. 7 Q Did you come to understand, in the course 8 of your medical training, medical school training, now 9 that asbestos was a dust that was capable of causing 10 scarring in the lungs? 11 A I don't know if it was actually a dust. 12 I mean you could say dust. They were particals of the 13 substance. 14 And what'was the question again? 15 Q Whether you learned in your medical 16 school training that asbestos fibers or particals were 17 capable of causing scarring or fibrosis of the lung? 18 A They just clasified asbestos, and subse 19 quent asbestosis with the pneumoconiosis. They didn't 20 it wasn't any major problem at the time. 21 Q Were' you acquainted with the ways in whi 22 pneumoconiosis developed or caused problems for patients? 23 A Well, yes. Most substances causing 24 pneumoconiosis cause an inflammatory reaction in the lung, / 25 which subsequently results in various complications, I PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER U . i J ^ yT^ 1 would say foremost of which would be fibrosis m the 2 healing process following the inflammatory reaction, and a narrowing of the air spaces, so that individuals with 3 serious cases of pneumoconiosis could have a marked 4 --"V- ' ' ' f diminution in their ability to^breathe well. 5 Q When you use the term ''fibrosis," are 6 7 you referring to scarring? A Yes. -It's a healing process which result: 8 in contraction and scars. These aren't necessarily scars. 9 10 The small areas involved each time are scarred down. The 11 subsequent overall appearance of the lung is contracted 12 in various areas. Q And this would have an effect of restricting 13 14 lung function? 15 A Yes. It would restrict lung function,. 16 diminish it. 17 Q And were you made aware, in the course 18 of this medical school training, of the kinds of symptoms 19 that victims of pneumoconiosis would have? 20 A Yes. I mean they would have many of 21 them would have cough, not necessarily so, but some of them 22 would have it. They would have difficulty breathing. They 23 would have what we now call chronic obstructive pulmonary 24 disease, where they have to breathe rapidly to get enough 25 oxygen. And actually, they -- the severe cases ultimately PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER 1 ilJL 1 11 j wv''f 1 become pulmonary cripples, unable to engage -in anything 2 consisting of heavy labor of varying degrees. Q V I e r e you aware, from your medical school 3 4 training, that the effectjon lung function could include . % . ` 5 shortness of breath? ' 6 A Yes. That was one of the manifestations. 7 They could become cyanotic because of the change in color 8 They have clubbing of "their fingers, and they would have 9 difficulty in sleeping in a recumbent position. They'd 10 have to sleep partially up so it would make it easier. 11 Q Were you aware of whether the pneumoconi 12 osis type diseases produced any particular changes on 13 X-ray? 14 A Yes. " 15 q And what was your understanding at that 16 time of the X-ray appearance or X-ray evidence of these 17 pneumoconioses? . 18 A Well, in medical school, I didn't know 19 very much or did anyone else at that time. 3ut there 20 were lung changes. There was calcification. In some 21 instances, there were hazy, opague appearance of portions 22 of the lung. If they had a concomitant infection, they 23 might have abscesses. 24 Q Now, at that time, were you aware of any 25 methods of treatment or cure for the pneumoconioses? PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER  {r^ * 1 A No. ' 2 MR. HOTHEM: You might ask him first if 3 he remembers what he knew in medical school -- - . \ 4 MR. KAZ.&N: Excuse me. You indicated "% ' ' - 5 that Miss Hudson was participating in this deposition for 6 Fibreboard. 7 MR. HOTHHM: That's true. ' 8 MR. KAZAN: That was something that your 9 office insisited on, that only one attorney for a party 10 participate. And if that's the rule, X would like it 11 clear, and I would like her to participate or I would like 12 you to participate, but not both of you. 13 MS. HUDSON: Mr. Kazan, what our office wjas 14 attempting to accomplish was simply to limit it to the 15 parties in this immediate action. And we have other peop]< 16 present today. 17 Rather than pursuing any objection along 18 that line, more so than we have, I will be doing the 19 questioning. And insofar as there's any objection to the 20 form of the question, I d o n 't think we need to proceed 21 further. And you can conduct the examination. 22 MR. KAZAN: Nell, I want it clear that 23 the only person speaking on this record on behalf of 24 Fibreboard from this point forward will be yourself, and t' 25 not any of the other attorneys here connected with Fibre- PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER board. And if you have any objections to the question or 1 any other question, you're perfectly clear to state them 2 in accordance with California Civil Procedure. Otherwise, 3 I propose to proceed with^the questioning of tlifs witness. 4 MR. HOTIIF.M: "^y problem there was that 5 you just hadn't asked if he had any recollection of what 6 he knew in medical school versus what he knew now. And 7 8 your questions relate to what he knew in medical school. And that's the question you should have asked first. And 9 10 to not do that misleads Dr. Perlmutter. And that was the 11 only reason I spoke up. I felt compelled to do so. MR. KAZAN: well, Mr. Hothem, first of 2 all, my questions are clear. The record will stand on its 13 14 own and speak for itself. And if you have any problem with other 15 16 questions, I would request that you pass a note to your 17 associate and let her make any statement on the record 18 that you feel is necessary to protect Fibreboard's m t e r e s 19 in this matter. And I'm just not going to permit both of 20 you to participate in the deposition. 21 MS.'HUDSON: Mr. Kazan, since we did not 22 go through a long, drawn out series of objections at the 23 beginning, and we did so, again, for the comfort of the 24 witness and to allow you to expedite this, we'll certainly 25 attempt to limit participation, just as we sought to the PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER 23 1 attendance. - 2 So please proceed. 3 MR. KAZAN: Thank you. 4 Do you have, Mr. Court Reporter, the last ' N, ' ' - 5 question and answer? - 6 (Record read.) 7 WITNESS: In medical school, I didn't 8 know of any particular cures. 9 Q (By MR. KAZAN): At that timeT 'were you 10 aware of anything that could be done to prevent or elimi 11 nate the disease? 12 A Yes. 13 2 7Jhat was that, doctor? 14 A The -important thing in treatment of 15 pneumoconiosis, in any instance, is prevention. If there 16 can be a barrier between the dust and the patient, you 17 eliminate the source of irritant that would cause the 18 pneumoconiosis. . . 19 Q So it was your understanding at that times 20 that prevention was the remedy of choice? 21 A Correct. 22 MS. HUDSON: Steve, excuse me. Could we 23 clarify the time period there? 24 q (By MR. KAZAN): We are still talking 25 about the time you were in medical school, doctor; is PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER  i >-m i|?raSj vr 1 ua 1 that what you understood I was talking about? 2 A That's right.. As I said before, there 3 was no great detail. If you were in pulmonary diseases, 4 if you were a respiratory physiologist or a specialist in 5 respiratory disease, then yovNwould go into the detail of 6 it. It was gone over once lightly. But I was aware of 7 it, as were other students in my class. - 8 Q And, doctor, just so that you're clear, 9 I know of your training in general surgery. NcT one is 10 attempting to cast you in the light of an expert in 11 occupational lung disease or chest medicine or anything of 12 the kind. My questions at this point are focused on what 13 you, as a medical student, aiming for -- 14 MS. HUDSON: Excuse me. Before you 15 proceed, ask the question and simply put it in its proper 16 form. I'm certain the doctor can understand your question)' 17 MR. KAZAN: If you have an objection, 18 make your objection in proper form and don't give me 19 lessons in how to take a deposition. 20 Now, if you want to object to a question, 21 you go ahead. But I would prefer that you would wait for 22 me to finish a question and state a proper objection rathejr 23 than interrupting me, trying to disrupt my train of throught 24 and distract the doctor by making speeches on the record. 25 MS. HUDSON: Steve, I have no interest in PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER ! disrupting your train of thought, but I don't want a monologue by yourself. I'll object to a question when a question is posed. - MR. KAZAN: Then why don't you wait unti] . -- . , ' there's a question and make tbe proper objection? - MS. HUDSON: I am objecting to the mono- logue. MR. KAZAN: Why don't you sit quietly and let me finish my question to the doctor, and., if you have an objection, you can state it? MS. HUDSON: That's fine. Le t 's proceed. MR. HOTHUM: Let's get on with the - deposition. Q - (By MR. KAZAN): Doctor, with respect to the time when you were a medical student, am I correct . that you were receiving a general medical education? A Correct. Q You were not being trained in the specialty of occupation disease or A No. n -- or of chestmedicine? A No. q And infact, your predilections and bent at the time was towards the general practice of medicine? A That's correct. PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER I -w 0 'k^ 1 Q And all the questions I have been asking 2 about what you knew at that tijne, you have understood to 3 be referring to you personally, with your participation 4 in a general medical education? ' V. ' -- * -\ ^ 5 A Correct. After you clarified the first 6 question. 7 . Q 8 Fine. Thank you, doctor. Am I -correct that from 1938, when you 9 completed your training, up to that point until- you entered 10 the surgical residency in 1950, that your practice was 11 basically the general practice of medicine? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q At any time during the years 1938 to 195C 14 did Fibreboard or Paraffine or Pabco, or whatever it was 15 called when you were working there, ever send you to any 16 kind of medical meetings or conferences or conventions? 17 A They did not. 18 Q Did they ever request you to do any 19 specific medical research in the field of occupational 20 disease? 21 A They, did not. 22 q Did they ever provide you with subscripts ons 23 to any medical or industrial health related journals or 24 periodicals? 25 A They did not. PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTER ( ,, 1 4* w Q I III, 27 ^ Did they ever provide you with access, 2 either in the plant office or in your own office, to any 3 journals? - a A They did not. \ --" ^ . 5 Q Specifically^ l''d like to ask you the 6 names of several journals, and ask if, on hearing those 7 names, that in any way refreshes your recollection. 8 I'd like to know, doctor, whether Fibre- 9 board or its predecessors, during this period of time 10 1938 to 1950, ever provided you with Industrial Health " 11 Digest? 12 A 13 q They did not. With the Bulletin of Hygiene? 14 A N o . 15 Q With the American Medical Association'js 16 Archives of Industrial Health? 17 a No. I don't know if that was published 18 at that time. 19 q what about the Public Health Reports 20 published by the United States Treasury Department? 21 A No. . 22 Q What aboutpublichealth bulletins pub- 23 lished by the United States Treasury Department? 24 A No. 25 Q The journal calledIndustrial Medicine? PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER I I > -3 3 ) * PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER w V 30 1 1 A Well, I, having just graduated from 2 Northwestern -- this was when the depression was at its 3 worst on the Nest Coast. I was just looking for some sort 4 of job with an older physician, preferably someone from 5 my school. And I looked in the directory of physicians 6 in the United States,'and found Emeryville, which was a 7 little suburb, sort of a political division.of Oakland so 8 that companies could come there with lower taxes and not 9 have to pay the higher taxes -- and I saw that'~there was 10 a doctor who was a graduate of Northwestern. According 11 to the key, Northwestern is listed as Illinois 6 and this 12 was Illinois 6 . And I saw he was up in years. And he 13 was in his late '70's. And I thought he really needed 14 someone. So I went and talked to him. And he was delighted 15 to see me because he was lonely there. * 16 Q Nhat was this doctor's name? 17 A Dr. Henry Viahle. 18 q Could you spell Wahle? 19 A 7j_a -H-L-E. He was a very o.ine gentle 20 man of the old school. He was a staunch believer in 21 democracy because of his father, who came over I don t 22 know if this is necessary, but he came over following the 23 revolution of 1948. 24 Q 1948? 25 A I 'm sorry. 1348. And he settled in PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER 1 Wisconsin and had a farm there. And he raised seven 2 children. And he had seven children. 3 When the Civil War was declared, he 4 volunteered, and was killed in the second battle of Bull 5 Run. And this made an ardent'Civil War buff out of Br. 6 Wahle. And he knew everything about the Civil War. But 7 he was particularly interested in the progress of the 8 Army of Virginia. And he started up -- he saw me. And 9 I said I was delighted to see that he was graduate of 10 Northwestern. He said, " I 'm not a graduate of Northwestern. 11 I was in the Collective College." 12 That was an old time medical school, and 13 it was taken over by the University of Illinois. And 14 actually, it was Illinois 16. But because of a typo 15 graphical error, the one was obliterated, and it was 6*. 16 And I talked to him. And he said, "I'm 17 not a graduate of Northwestern, but I do think I could 18 use an assistant." So I was hired at the -- and mind you 19 this was the depression, real depression. I was hired at 20 the magnificent salary of $115 or $125 a month. I c a n 't 21 remember what. - 22 And I was placed on the payroll, where I 23 remained until I went into the Army. 24 And subsequently, when I came back, I w a > 25 brought back again on the payroll at a slightly increased h< PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTER 32 1 facility at the Emeryville plant complex of "Paraffine 2 Companies? " %s . ' - 3 A Ye: We had a large room, where we 4 treated minor injuries. Jie^had, a nurse, and at. one time, 5 we had a secretary, also. But usually, the nurse acted 6 as a secretary. 7 And we had two examining rooms and a 8 combination examing room and counsultation room. And 9 patients were taken in here. 10 Vie had large x-ray cabinets that would 11 store our x-rays. And we had cabinets there with the 12 records of every single patient we examined, either for 13 the preappointment examination, subsequent examinations, 14 because of symptoms and/or complaints, medical complaints, 15 that they came to see us about. 16 Q You said that you stored x-rays in the 17 dispensary area? 18 . a Yes, where the nurse was stationed. 19 Q And these were x-rays taken at the 20 request of your medical department? 21 A Yes. ' 22 Q Of employees at the plant? 23 A Yes. X-rays of the chest, the back, 24 x-rays for trauma to rule out fractures, and anything that 25 might need an x-ray. PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER 4 i ill Is a ___ : ip* Y? lr 1 q And how much storage space was there for 2 x-rays when you started? - 3 A Well, a very large -- well, it would be 4 a space from about here indicating) to mid-way, and they 5 were cabinets put against thei^e, large cabinets that woulc 6 hold years and years of x-rays. I don't remember ever 7 throwing -- having any of them thrown out while I was ther 8 Q As far as you recall, it was the practice 9 to keep the records -- x-rays as a permanent record? - 10 A Yes. Now, some of the x-rays were kept 11 in the hospital, but very few. Their practice was to 12 destroy them at the end of five years. But we didn t 13 always get the x-rays back if they had been hospitalized. 14 We asked for that, but sometimes they never showed up. 15 And if it was terribly important, they stayed there. But 16 every request for an x-ray and subsequent x-ray, we stored 17 the x-ray. 18 Q Did you have occasion, during your employ 19 ment at Paraffine, to expand the storage facilities for 20 x-rays? 21 A We did enlarge it somewhat. I can't 22 remember exactly how we did it, whether we just stole 23 space from other parts there. So it was a little crowded 24 at times, but it was definitely suited for two physicians 25 at one time. PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER I I 1 Q And you mentioned that records were kept 2 on the workers. Could you describe physically what those 3 records looked like? ~ - 4 A 'Well, it was a soft cardboard ^orm, whici -- f 5 had the list of symptoms that ^-- you have a standard form 6 that many people use. And then in fact, there was room 7 for narrative and for going through all the various systen 8 and making notes on it: 9 Q 'Was this a pre-printed form that had 10 A Pre-printed. 11 Q Would a separate sheet be filled out for 12 each visit? 13 A No. There was a place there to make 14 notations. And when this became full, another one was 15 clipped to it or stapled to it. 16 g How big was this form? 17 - a Well, it was approximately this size 18 (indicating), a little larger. And it was written on 19 both sides. 20 q You're holding up a copy of your 21 curriculum vitae, which is a regular eight and one-half 22 by eleven? 23 A Correct. Right. It might have been 24 slightly larger. 25 Q Where were these kept? h* PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER  > * > K' > 4 SSI ' 1 1 1/ f p if 1 111 PHi V' 1 1 36 1 1 A These were .kept in files just adjacent 2 to our x-ray files in the area where the nurse would be 3 working. She had a -- what we did when we needed more 4 x-ray space, we stole some .,,space from her, where she 5 sterilized instruments and cleaned instruments and did 6 the various things you need to do to keep an office 7 running. 8 Q Were these records kept as a permanent 9 part of the medical department records? 10 A They were. 11 Q And these were kept by the nurse? 12 A Yes. And we stored some. And I don't 13 remember where we stored them. 14 q Do you recall the names of these nurses? 15 It's only forty years ago, doctor. 16 A Yes. I remember Mrs. Breck was an 17 interesting gal. She was a veteran of World War I. And 18 she had been with the British Columbia University Medical 19 Unit in France. She was there. 20 Q Was she employed personally by Dr. Wahle 21 or by Paraffine? ' 22 A Well, of course, the medical service had 23 the option to decide who would be hired. They were all 24 hired through the personnel department of Paraffine. But 25 the choice was the service chief's choice. PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTER I V"~ 37 1 Q But this was somebody who was an employee 2 of Paraffine? 3 A 4 Q , Right. Correct. - \ And was .hat true of all .the nursing --* > ^ * 5 personnel that were there during your years? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Was that also true of any secretarial 8 employees in the medical department? 9 A Yes, correct. 10 Q Now, you had occasion, from time to time, 11 to see different workers in the dispensary; is that 12 correct? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q Can you give me some idea of the kinds of 15 reasons that would bring a worker or employee of Paraffine 16 to the dispensary to see you or Dr. Wahle? 17 A Might have abdominal pain, might have a 18 laceration, might have a sprain, might have a headache, 19 might in general, feel poorly, didn't feel he was -- he or 20 she were up to working, and we'd examine them and come to 21 some conclusion. If they had something referable to 22 their chest, then, of course, the things we were most 23 concerned with at that particular time was tuberculosis. 24 But we would order x-rays and file these x-rays. We orders 25 a lot of x-rays. There were a lot of x-rays. PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER w 1 q Was there any kind of pre-employment 2 physical examination followed a.s a regular course when . 3 new workers would come to the plant? 4 A Every single employee was supposed to ~~ - 5 have a pre--employment examination as a condition of his 6 employment, and this was done prior to hiring. Now, if 7 any slipped through, I'm not aware of it. . 8 Q And if you examined someone and cleared 9 then for employment, and they in fact were employed, woulc 10 a record of that examination become part of the medical 11 records of the department? 12 A Correct. ' 13 q That would then be the first page of that 14 worker's chart? ' . . 15 A Correct. 16 Incidently, in addition to this, we would 17 staple laboratory reports, x-ray reports, to this key 18 form. 19 Q And you would keep, essentially, a regular 20 office chart? 21 A That!.s right. 22 Q Just as you did inyourprivate practice? 23 A Correct. 24 Q Mow, a workerwould have apre-employment 25 physical, and then might see you, for example, for some PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER 39 Jm s' V 1 kind of trauma on the job, as a laceration or a sprain? 2 A Or have some medical complaint. 3 Q Were they'only permitted to see you for 4 jJ ob related injuries or illnesses? -- > \ 5 A No, they werS permitted to see -- 6 M S . HUDSON: Objection to the form of the 7 question. 8 I'm s'orry to interrupt you, Dr. Perl- 9 mutter. 10 What do you mean, permitted by whom? 11 Would you clarify? 12 Q (By MR. KAZAN): Doctor, do you know what 13 workers were required to do by Paraffine before coming to 14 see you? 15 A ' ~ Well, the usual practice was to consult 16 their foreman or their sub-foreman, or whoever it was, and 17 they would then send them down. But if they weren t 18 immediately available, they'd come down too. We never had 19 any restrictions. We wanted to see anyone who had a 20 medical complaint. And I think I saw an awful lot of 21 them. 22 q ' So if a worker was just feeling poorly 23 one day at work, whether it had anything to do with his 24 employment, he could come and see you? 25 A Yes, because some of these things could h'- PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTER I 1 be job related without his knowing it. - 2 Q And did you see the whole range of 3 medical complaints that one would see in a general practice? 4 A Yes. \ 5 2 Everytime a wbrker came to the dispensary 6 to be seen by a physician, would a record be made of that 7 on the patient's -- on the worker's chart? 8 A Correct. ' 9 Q Were there times when they would come in 10 and simply see the nurse and not a physician? 11 A Yes. And if, in her opinion, the patient 12 should be seen, they were sent to my office. And I billed 13 them for the services. 14 q Did you have any responsibility, again ir 15 this period 1938 to 1942, for the treatment of any kind'of 16 industrial or occupational injury? 17 A Well, yes. I had the responsibility for 18 all the patients that I saw that had industrial injuries. 19 And it was my responsibility to see that they were adequately 20 taken care of. If they had a small laceration or torn 21 fingernail, I would remove it under anesthesia, or if they 22 had a fracture, we would consult an orthopedist. 23 Q If it was a problem that you were com 24 fortable treating, as a general practitioner, you would 25 treat it? y^ PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER ! Vf 4 41 A That's correct. - Q And if it was something that, in your opinion, required referral to a specialist, you would make the referral? A Yes. v , - \ For example, there were many small foreign bodies in eyes. That was something we treated literally hundreds of these. And if it was a superficial thing, X would remove dt and take it out with a little gouge. But if it were anything at all serious, arid not really serious, just questionably serious, immediately, they would be seen by an ophthalmological surgeon. q in cases where you would refer the patier.t out for treatment, that specialist would report back to your department? - A Yes. He'd give us a written report. `Anc what they would do, because many of them were very, very interested in the number of patients we sent out, they would call personally and tell us what the thing is and what their recommendations would be and say: Report wil follow." Q And did you also see workers for clear ance for return to work after either illness or injury? A Yes. q And all these patients, worker contacts would be recorded in the worker's chart in the medical PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER W5 if' Y *-1 1 department? _ " 2 A Correct. ' 3 MR. KAZAN: Why don't we take a brief 4 break. I understand that_we are running out o'^ tape. 5 6 (Brief recess taken.) 7 8 MS. HUDSON: Steve, before you proceed g with your questioning, I think we might be able to avoid 10 interruption of the depositon, this being videotaped. h It's my understanding that it is a 12 stationary videotape. There's no scanning or closing in. 13 And in an effort to maintain your questioning and so as 14 not to disrupt your train- of thought or whatever, I think 15 we should establish right now, off the bat, that we are 16 appearing in the Crittenden matter only. 17 Vie have numerous objections to the 18 relevancy of many of your questions. Mr. Crittenden was 19 an electrician at various shipyards from the time period 20 1942 through 1951. We don't believe the scope of your 21 questioning is limited to the facts or issues relevant 22 in this case. 23 As I stated, we are appearing in this 24 case only, and that was the issue addressed to the Court 25 yesterday. 3 ut so as to avoid an interruption of your- PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER ) jpiH- w& 1 self or the witness in the course of the examination, we 2 will state that as an objection that will apply to all 3 areas of questioning. ' 4 We can address with the Court''at a later 5 time, what is the proper scop of inquiry, since we are 6 not in a position to instruct the witness not to answer. 7 The Court has limited the inquiry to the scope relevant 8 in this case, and we can address the Court when we return g to San Francisco. This is a Saturday afternoon.~ We don't 10 have an immediate remedy. So I'll simply leave that on 11 the record and we can address it with the Court later 12 rather than interrupting your questioning of the witness 13 on each occasion. 14 MR. KAZAN: Well, you can do whatever you 15 feel is necessary to protect your client's rights and 16 interest. 17 , This deposition has been Noticed in the 18 Crittenden case and is being taken in that case. I t 's 19 being taken in the expectation that it will be used at 20 trial in that case, should Dr. Perlmutter be unavailable 21 as a witness. 22 - I'm sure you're aware of California law 23 on the subject of the use of depositions and are aware of 24 the Federal rules and the rules that apply in other 25 jurisdictions, and are also aware of the fact that in PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER I II I ! 44 ^ _____ flfc V W~ Nr-- 1 asbestos litigation, depositions of experts- and corporate 2 employees are often used in cases in jurisdictions far 3 beyond those that appear on the caption of the case. a 4 The Court in San Francisco did not and - > ' 5 indeed could not, for reason^ of lack of jurisdiction, 6 in any way limit the use of this deposition pursuant to 7 those rules. I think every question I have asked this - 8 witness and every question I'm going to ask this witness 9 are relevant and lead to relevant and admissible testi 10 mony in connection specifically with the Crittenden case. 11 As you point out, Mr. Crittenden was 12 employed in the asbestos related industries and exposed 13 to asbestos products as late as 1951. Dr. Perlmutter has 14 indicated that his employment with Fibreboard ended in 15 around 1950 and, therefore, to the extent that the know 16 ledge of Fibreboard and the state of the art becomes an 17 issue, the entire period of Dr. Permutter's employment is 18 directly relevant with respect to the other implications 19 his testimony has for various damage aspects of the 20 Crittenden case, I think it's clearly relevant and fully 21 expect that we'll be arguing that to the trial department 22 at the time of trial. 23 Again, as I made clear to your office by 24 letter and as is obvious, you understand by virtue of the 25 impressive fire power that Fibreboard is bringing to bear r^ PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER  75 I 45 1 at this deposition, you know that this deposition has 2 implications far beyond Mr. Crittenden's case. And we'll 3 just leave that to evolve as it evolves. \ 4 If yourhaye objections to spcifie : % 5 . ' - 5 questions, you're free to state them. There's nothing in 6 California law, to my knowledge, that permits you to state 7 in advance a blanket objection to every question. Certain 8 types of objections are reserved by law, certain types are 9 deemed waived if not made. ^ 10 _ I am no way stipulating to any variance 11 from California statutes with respect to the making of 12 objections at depositions. . 13 MS. HUDSON: Steve, suffice it to say -- 14 ... MR. KAZAN : If you'd like to make a speecjl 15 on the record, and then we'll start the videotape -- 16 MS. HUDSON: Suffice it to say, without 17 any further elaboration, this deposition is noticed in one 18 case and one case only. The Court so acknowledged. If 19 you intend to use Dr. Permutter's deposition in any other 20 cases, you can so notice it. But we can address that with 21 the Court, as long as the record is clear, the basis on 22 which we are appearing, the basis on which the Notice was 23 given and on the basis for which we prepared for this 24 deposition, the fact that others care to attend and observl 25 as your office argued with the Court yesterday, anyone can PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER I i 1 1 attend to observe. That was the position of your office. 2 Therefore, please don't take any leave by the presence of 3 other Fibreboard counsel. ' 9 4 \ Other jurisdictions have their rules and - " 5 other jurisdictions have stays in effect. And if you wish 6 to use this deposition, you should have properly Noticed 7 it. But again, we are not going to solve anything by 8 arguing that at present, so -- 9 MR. KAZAN: I'm not going to argue it, -|0 but I'm going to tell you one thing, to reiterate, because j-| your firm knows this, everybody knows it: Depositions car 12 be used, under certain circumstances, in the absence of 13 the witness, providing legal criteria are met. If, at the 14 conclusion of this deposition, when we are walking out the| 15 door, a group of Iraqi terrorists attempt to destroy the 16 City of Tucson, to wreak vengeance because of the antici17 pated rJSC triumph at the game tonight, and if all of us 18 are killed, and the only thing that survives is the video19 tape and the transcript of this deposition, then my heirs 20 and assigns litigating other asbestos cases, for the bene21 fit of my estate and the benefit of my clients, will be, 22 under California law, absolutely permitted to use this 23 videotape in evidence in every case they have. And that's 24 the law. If you don't think that's the law, I'm warning 25 you that you hold back or pull your punches or refrain PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER Jp 47 r&s ^ 1 from cross-examining this doctor, you do so-at your peril 2 because it's my expectation that this deposition will 3 ultimately be offered in evidence in other jurisdictions. 4 You're here. You have an opportunity to 5 cross-examine. I am telling'^you that you have every moti 6 vation in the world to cross-examine. If you choose not 7 to do so, that will have implications that will occur, anc 8 you can take your chances. MS. HUDSON: Steve, let's not'-- I 9 10 don't think we have to go any further. My objection was 11 made on the record. You can interpret the law as you wisl 12 I know this deposition was Noticed, and the fact will 13 speak for itself in the court file. 14 ' MR. KAZAN: That's absolutely fine. 15 MS. HUDSON: And we have stated our * 16 objection. 17 MR. HOTHEM: Also, we are here to hear 18 from Dr. Perlmutter. Let's get on with it. 19 MS. HUDSON: Indeed. 20 MR. KAZAN: If your associate is willing 21 to follow your instructions, I will proceed. 22 MR. HOTHEM: We are ready to go. 23 MS. HUDSON: We made a limited statement 24 2 4' (By MR. KAZAN): Doctor, there's no extra 25 charge to you for having to listen to this fascinating PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER 1 by-play between attorneys. 2 I'd like to get back to your testimony, 3 however. 4 When we broke, at the end of the last 5 tape, we were discussing the function of the medical 6 department at the Emeryville Paraffine plant in the perioc 7 up to 1942. With reference to that, can you tell me, 8 doctor, whether there Was any kind of annual or periodic 9 physical examination program pursued by Paraffine for the 10 workers in its factories? 11 A No, except on some of the supervisors 12 and executives who desired to avail themselves of yearly 13 examinations. And we had regular examinations j.or our -- r" 14 some of our -- for all of our paint workers who were 15 exposed to lead, because we had some one or two cases of 16 lead poisoning that we diagnosed and who were treated by 17 internists and hematologists, experts in this field. And 18 because of this occurrence, we felt that we Would have to 19 monitor them. 20 Q And the monitoring of workers for lead 21 ooisoning was something initiated by Paraffine management? 22 A Well, we recommended it and they did it, 23 and they permitted us to do it. 24 Q With the exception of the lead exposed 25 workers, the only workers who got -- the only employees r( ^ PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER 49 ir r 1 who got a regular physical examination were supervisory 2 and management level? ' 3 A Correct. Anyone could ask for that, and 4 people came by and asked for it, and we gave it^to them or 5 request. 6 Q At the same time that you were working 7 mornings at Parrafine Company, you were also engaged in an 8 active-private practice-in Berkeley, is that correct? 9 A T h a t 's correct. ~ '" 10 Q Did you draw any significant percentage 11 of your private patients from the workers and the families 12 of workers at Paraffine? ' 13 r' 14 A Yes, I did. Q Did you keep separate records in your 15 office on those private patients that you saw in Berkeley 16 A Yes, I did. 17 ' q In the yearly physical examination pro 18 gram for supervisors and executives, was there a practice 19 of ordering chest x-rays for those employees? 20 A It was discussed with them, and if they 21 wished it, they could-.have it. 22 q Were yearly chest x-rays offered by or 23 through your department to all employees in the Paraffine 24 Company factories? ,, 25 A You mean in Emeryville? PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER 1 Q In Emeryville. - 2 A Were offered to them? - ^ 3 Q Yes. - 4 A If they came and requested it, hnd they > 5 had any symtomatology, we would1*do this. . 6 q But it was not offered as a matter of 7 routine to the factory workers? - 8 A No. There's a hazzard in taking x-rays 9 continuously, and we recognized this. And if there' was 10 cause for it, we would order the x-rays. 11 Q When you went to work at Paraffine, did 12 you know what kind of business the company was in? 13 A I knew they were in the building trades 14 business, manufacturing supplies. I knew they had Pabco 15 paints, Pabco roofing, Pabco linoleum and siding, and all 16 the different types of floor covering. 17 Q Did you, at the time you started your 18 employment, have any knowledge with respect to whether 19 Paraffine or any of its subsidiaries were involved in the 20 insulation or insulating materials industry? 21 A Not initially, because they weren't doing 22 this until -- the factory wasn't started until '41. I'm 23 not sure exactly when it was completed. 24 Q And when you say that they weren't doing 25 this, you mean at Emeryville? PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER I ^Tt Al vi 51 TT 1 A At that time. Just at Emeryville, be 2 cause there v/ere other factories that were subsidiaries, 3 and I had no knowledge of what was going on.there. 4 Q Did you ever have occasion, during this - > 5 first four--year period, to actually tour the factory 6 premises and see the production processes? 7 A Yes. I had more of an opportunity sub 8 sequent to coming back'. I toured the factory once or 9 twice in the early days. More than that. I can t re 10 member exactly. 11 Q During this first four-year period, were 12 you aware of any safety engineers or safety supervisors 13 employed at the Emeryville facility? 14 A Yes. ' ` 15 Q Did you have any interaction with tho^e 16 people? 17 A Yes. They would come and chat with me. 18 Most of them were people my own age, and we talked about 19 various things. And if they had any problems, they d 20 discuss them with me. 21 q Did they ever come to you for advice or 22 information with respect to potential occupational health 23 hazzards in the work place? 24 A Mo, they did not. 25 q Did anyone in management ever request PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER 1 that you provide information or assistance to the safety 2 engineering peopie on questions of occupational health or 3 disease? ' . 4 A No, they did not. \ 5 Q Were you av/a^e of anything being done at 6 Emeryville before you left to join the Army by the safety 7 people and the engineering people to control dust in the 8 air in the factory work place? 9 A Yes. I heard they were starting 'an air 10 purification system. And I c a n 't remember I think 11 Sam Abrahms was the superintendent of this plant, within 12 the confines of the Emeryville area. But I 'm not sure if 13 that was his name. And then there were other safety 14 engineers. I remember 3ill Green, and trying to talk to 15 him when I heard about this. He was one of the first - 16 safety engineers. But he has died. 17 And then there was some -- of course, 18 I tried to talk to Sam Abrahms. I found out that he had 19 died. I c a n 't remember the other names. There were many 20 safety engineers at different times, but you want to know 21 just about this period. 22 Q Yes. 23 Now, you mentioned something about a new 24 plant? 25 A You mean the insulation plant? PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER I I N I I T iw*** 53 sftBIS 1 Q Yes, 2 A Yes, 3 Q Were you referring to the facility built 4 by Plant Rubber and Asbestos Works in the Emeryville 5 complex? ^ ` 6 A Right. It was a subsidiary -- I can't 7 remember if at that time it was owned by Fibreboard or 8 whether it was Pabco o-r the Paraffine Company. 9 Q I think the record will reflect that it 10 was the Paraffine Companies that was still the parent 11 company at that time. 12 A The corporation machinations, I was not 13 privy to. 14 q ' Did you ever differentiate yourself be 15 tween employees of Plant Rubber and Asbestos Works from 16 the insulation factory and employees of Paraffine Company, 17 let's say, from the floor covering factory? 18 A No, we did not. 19 Q As far as you, as the medical department, 20 was concerned, you were providingservices to all these 21 employees? . 22 A Correct. 23 Q Withoutregardtothecorporate lines of 24 division? 25 A No. As long as they were on the area PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER % '#1 l " a:"icrf?ak vf i* " T^f 1 owned by Paraffine and supposedly part of the corporate 2 existence there, we took care of them. . 3 Q It was yourunderstanding that the \ 4 Paraffine Company medical^department was providing medica] --*^ ` % 5 services to the Plant Rubber and Asbestos Works subsidiary 6 A Correct. 7 Q Were youaware, before youentered the 8 Army, of anything being done at that Plant Rubber and 9 Asbestos Works insulation factory to control asbestos 10 dust? 11 A 12 Well -- MR. HOTHSM: You mean as distinct from 13 dust in general? 14 WITNESS:' It was dust, and I assumed it 15 was asbestos dust. They ware trying to make the area 16 dust free. Sort of an interesting commentary that the 17 people involved at that time, and subsequently, who were 18 convinced of the superior type air purification that they 19 had, not total purification, but the clean up of the air, 20 that so many of them suffered from the same diseases that 21 other people, other employees, got there. They were con- 22 vinced that it was safe. They did work there and they 23 got it. 24 And the interesting thing also was that 25 the type of safety procedures they had at that time and PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER % 3- I IIS, , 55 1 subsequent to my coming back, I mean taking -it as a whole, 2 was acknowledged in the industry to be outstanding. 3 And as a matter of fact, they licensed 4 several other manufacturers, three in the United States, 5 most of them in the east, and^one in England, because of 6 the superior plans they had. 7 Q You said earlier, I think, -that you 8 assumed that one of the things they were trying to contro] 9 was asbestos dust? 10 A Yes. That was the principal motive. I 11 mean they talked about dust removal. And now, in additioi 12 to that dust, they had some talc there and they had mag 13 nesium. They were trying to get rid of all the dust, the 14 impurities. All these things could cause lung irritation. 15 I d o n 't know if they zeroed in on asbestos. Certainly 16 asbestos was the prime offender, but the others, also. 17 - Q And you say that asbestos was the prime 18 offender. Was this something that you knew at that time? 19 A I d o n 't know if they recognized it. The} 20 were cleaning up the entire area of dust. That was their 21 goal. - 22 Q And do you know specifically whether the 23 industrial engineering and safety people were aware of 24 the hazzards of asbestos exposure? 25 A Wo, they never talked to me about it. PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER -Jb 1 Never consulted me. - 2 Q Did you assume that they were aware that , 3 asbestos was a potential hazzard dust? 4 A That's what I assumed. If they were - ^ 5 trying to get rid of the dust^ they must.have recognized 6 the problem. 7 Of course, as I told you before, as long 8 ago as when I was in medical school, I knew if you set up 9 a barrier between an agent that was causing problems, that 10 was the best type of prevention you could have, the only 11 adequate treatment for things like asbestosis. 12 g During the four-year period before the 13 war? 14 ' A Well, actually, it was only a one-year 15 period with the asbestos plant. ' 16 g 3ut -- 17 A Or less than that. 18 Q Going back to this period of '38 to '42, 19 did you have any role in the administration of the medica. 20 aspects of Fibreboard's or Paraffine's self-insured work 21 er's compensation program? 22 A Not at all. 23 Q Who was responsible for the medical 24 aspects of that? 25 A Dr. Wahle. PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER I I I I III 57 1 1 Q Did you know at the time, p-rior to 2 entering the Army, that Paraffine Company or its subsid- 3 iaries had contract insulation workers who would go out 4 and actually apply t h e 'insulation materials? xv - - ^ 5 A I didn't kno*^ then until the end that 6 they were contract. I thought -- I knew they developed 7 the product and were manufacturing it. I didn't appreciatj g that the insulators were controlled by the company and g were actual employees of the company. I still "don't know 10 exactly what their role was. 11 Q Do you know, whether in the period before 12 you entered the Army, you even examined or saw any of the 13 insulators? V e* 14 A Oh, yes. - I saw them. I saw various 15 members there. vie had referred some people. I can't ` 16 remember who. These were people who had developed coughs 17 and colds, and were concerned about their cough. And some 18 of these, as indicated, were referred to Dr. Harold Trimble 19 and his group. This was the pulmonary specialist group 20 that was best known in the area. And Dr. Trimble himself 21 was particularly interested in industrial-medical compli- 22 cations. 23 Q I think you said that you would see some 24 of these insulators from time to time. Did you know 25 technically who their employer was? PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER ' ' I 8 1 A No. If they came in, we assumed that 2 they belonged there,' and we treated them. We might have 3 treated some strays, I d o n 4t know. But I doubt very, very 4 many. 5 Q ' If they got ihside the fence -- ' ' 6 A Well, if they got inside the fence, my 7 nurse, she was an oldtimer, and she knew everyone, and she 8 ask them, in no uncertain terms, where they came from. 9 And I was satisfied, if they passed her, I could-treat 10 them. 11 Q Again, the medical department of Paraffin 12 would treat these insulators without regard for whether - 13 they were technically employed by Plant or Paraffine or 14 some other company, some other subsidiary? 15 a Yes. I don't remember a single instance 16 in any of the x-rays taken or any of the reports we got 17 from Dr. Trimble that any of these people had any conditic 18 that needed on-going medical treatment. And definitely, 19 in all the time I was there, we never had a diagnosis of 20 abestosis. 21 Q I appreciate that. My question was 22 whether the medical department would provide the same 23 kind of medical services to these insulators when called 24 upon to do so, as it did to other Paraffine and Plant 25 employees? PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER r' r^- 1 A Well, you know, there really was no 2 distinction, as I knew of. There might have been and I 3 might not have seen all of them. And there.might have 4 been people who were under a special type of contract that 5 this was a subsidiary of Paraffine, and this was a con- 6 tractual arrangement with the subsidiary. I don't know. 7 I treated patients when they were passed by 'my nurse. 8 Q As far as you knew, the asbestos that g was used in Emeryville prior to 1942 was used in the 10 Plant Rubber and Asbestos Works insulation factory in 11 Emeryville? 12 A ' Yes. I don't remember when that plant 13 was completed. It was started in '41. When did the war 14 break out? It was M l , wasn't it? And that was in 15 December. And it was completed some months later in '4'2, 16 as I understand. So that actually, I was there a very 17 short time before I was in the Army. So I can't speak of 18 the times I wasn't there. 19 Q Whether this is correct or not, I'd like 20 you to assume it is, my information is that that plant 21 became fully operation approximately November 30th of 1941 22 and -- 23 A I can't remember. 24 Q -- with the start of the war, then went 25 to three shifts. PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER tell 60 v- yf r XT' *' "if j A Okay. It could very well be. 2 Q And up to that time, you were notseeing 3 workers from the other Paraffine or Plant Rubber and 4 Asbestos Works manufacturing facilities outside of Emery - * 5 ville, were you? ^ ~ g A You mean from Redwood City? 7 2 Redwood City, for example. - 8 A No. I never saw them, unless they were 9 working there for short periods to help set that'up. I -|q d o n 't know. It could have been. -|-| Q And you are, I take it, now at least, 12 aware of the concept of latency in the development of 13 asbestos related disease? 14 A I am. . 15 Q You would not have expected, in 1942, to 16 see any disease related to asbestos exposure from 1941, 17 would you? 18 A When I was there in '41 or later? 19 Q No, no. In other words, if somebody's 20 exposure began in 1941, you would not expect them to show 21 asbestos related disease by 1942? 22 A Not usually, no. 23 Q When you left Fibreboard, did you just 24 resign employment? * 25 A No, I did not. I took a military leave PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTER V 1 of absence. 61 - 2 Q And in view of that, you would then 3 expect to be able, if you wished, to come back to the 4 plant at the end of the war? \ 5 A Uh-huh. Yes. Uh-huh. - 6 Q Is that in fact what happened after the 7 war? ' 8 A T h a t '-s in fact what happened. 9 Q 10 of the war? You were serving in Europe at~t:he end 11 A That's correct. 12 g And about how long after V E day did you 13 return to the states? 14 A I think I was released in November -- I 15 can't remember the exact dates when I got out. But let's 16 see here what I put down. It's pretty close. I would s a y 17 it was around November or December, because I had some 18 accrued leave, and they gave you terminal leave for what 19 ever accrued leave you had. We couldn't take much leave 20 overseas, so we had a fair amount, one or two months, I 21 can't remember. - 22 g After you got out of the service, you 23 returned to the Emeryville facilities, did you resume 24 your previous position as a physician in the medical 25 department? PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER .J 2 4 1 A Well, yes. Dr. Wahle, who was well alone 2 in years now, was in his eighty's, and I think he was 3 eighty-two, three or four, I can't remember. Could have 4 been on up higher than that even. He considered it his 5 duty to stay on in this job while I was away. And I saw 6 him and told him I was returning about two weeks before I 7 actually returned. And when I returned, he greeted me 8 and asked me where I had been, and I told him about the 9 six campaigns I had been in. He said, "Sure reminds me 10 of the Army of Virginia." 11 Q So you lit up a cigar? 12 A I lit up a cigar. He shook hands with - 13 me. He put on his hat and said, "Good-bye. He said, 14 "I'm tired." That's it. _ 15 I said, "Do you want to talk to me about 16 any cases?" 17 He said, "Talk to the nurse." 18 He said, "Good-bye, Henry." He never 19 called me Henry. He said, "Good-bye, Dr. Perlmutter. 20 Q Did you consider that the announcement 21 of his retirement? ., 22 A That was his retirement. 23 Q You sort of got a field commission as 24 director then? 25 A Well, yes, of the Emeryville plant. But PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER y$gsi? BL~i3MF 1 he handled the other plants, you see. I had. no ambitions 2 that way. I just wanted to stay in Emeryville. So no one 3 really succeeded him as director of the Paraffine medical 4 set up. Antioch, he did some work up in Antioch. He 5 did some in Redwood City. I `hean he controlled the things, 6 He never did any medical work. And so I just resumed my 7 .position as medical physician there in charge of trauma 8 and any medical problems that arose. g Q Without rehashing the hour or'-so-we 10 spent talking about the ways the medical department 11 functioned from '38 to '42, and why workers would be seen 12 and what the department did, would it be fair to say that, 13 basically, the medical department and the system functioned 14 the same way in the period from your return in '46 until 15 you left in 19 50 as it had in the previous period you had 16 been working there? -|7 a Pretty much so. We had a new safety 18 officer, who was also hired to educate the employees. 19 They had problems of exposure and one thing and another 20 in the plant. That was Mr. Homer Lamby. 21 Q Did you have any interaction with Mr. 22 Lamby? 23 a Yes. He would come in and check with 24 me from time to time. And he had no problems of signifi- 25 cance he ever discussed with me about that. PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER 64 f f wYw var**"' 'wa v* Q Did you know what level of training or education he had in the field of safety engineering? A Well, he had been consultant for a time. Actually Pabco had requested assistance from tfie state or from the school of public health', I'm not sure which,, and they wanted someone to come out and review procedures. And they got him either from the state or from the school of public health at Berkeley, I'm not sre which. And he came out. And after he had been there a while.as a consultant, he took over as our safety officer and educate in this type of -- in these type of problems. Q Do you know if he had any involvement in the operation or improvement of the dust control systems in the insulation factory? A I understood he did, but I can't say ---- I know he had excellent, young engineers who were super vising that plant, and most of them did the devising of the air control system from Mr. Abrahms I don't know if Mr. Abrahms was the first superintendent of that plant or not. And then we had -- I think fbllowing Mr. Abrahms, Harry Hoops took over. And then I'm not sure where Squire Fidel came in, whether he came in immediately aftei wards or there was some intervening -- and they were a very diligent and young people, and they patented, for the benefit of the company, many innovations they had set PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER \ 1 W2 1 set up in purification. They were -- my observation was, 2 they thought they had done a satisfactory job there. And 3 I was under the opinion that they had. The one problem 4 was that most of them came down with asbestosis and the 5 complications, so they weren't?* trying to do anything for 6 themselves that they hadn't done for everyone. And the 7 point of the matter is, I don't think that anyone appreciated 8 medically or in the industry the magnitude of the problem 9 I mean it's obvious that no one did at-that time;"And thej 10 went along as best they could and, actually, they didn't 11 proceed with any of the techniques that we use now, the 12 electron microscope, to detect fibers and that sort of 13 thing. The counts they had were primitive compared to 14 what we did, but it was the state of the art at that 15 particular time, to the best of my knowledge. 16 Q It was your understanding that the Fibre- 17 board safety and engineering people were attempting to 18 follow, as best they could, the current state of the medi cal 19 and engineering knowledge in the control of dust in the 20 plant? 21 A Yes.-. And the proof that they were so 22 doing this was that other companies sought their help and 23 has plants similar to the one that Paraffine had licensed 24 Also, since the state or the public health -- the school 25 of oublic health, I d o n 't know which, would send visitors PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER 1 or oeople inquiring about plants that had satisfactory 2 air pollution control to Emeryville to see what was being 3 done at that time. And I felt that that was the most 4 single important thing in^jthe prevention of asb'^stosis. --- > 5 q it was your understanding at that time 6 that, in fact, Paraffine or Pabco, as it was called, by 7 around that time, was a leader in the insulation manu 8 facturing industry? ' 9 A I don't know if they were a leader. The^ 10 were known and known for their technique of air control 11 of air pollution. 12 Q And as far as you knew, others looked to 13 them for guidance because they were doing as good a job 14 as anybody? ' 15 A Yes. ' 16 Q And it was your understanding that Fibre- 17 board or Pabco was attempting to comply completely with 18 the state of knowledge at that time. 19 A Yes, I'm certain they felt that. 20 q And it was your expectation that Pabco, 21 as a big manufacturer-of insulation, would comply with 22 the state of the art? 23 MR. rI0THEM: Just one second. 24 MS. HUDSON: Let's get the question 25 cleared up, Steve. What do you mean, "a big manufacturer PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER 1 MR. KAZAN: Well, if you have an object- 2 ion, please state it. 3 MS. HUDSON: Please rephrase the questior}. 4 I have an objection to your making reference to the size 5 of the manufacturing and so `forth. T h a t 's not in issue 6 here, and i t 's probably not something that the witness 7 would have occasion to know. . 8 MR. KAZAN: I 'm not sure I understand 9 your objection, but let me see if I can rephrase "the 10 question anyway. 11 Q (3y MR. KAZAN): In the late forty's, 12 when you were back at Pabco, you were aware that they - 13 were using asbestos in the insulation plant? 14 A Correct., 15 Q And you were aware that there were - 16 attempts being made to control, among other things, asbestos 17 dirt or fiber in the air at that plant? 18 MR. HOTHEM: Just a second. The testi- 19 mony has been he was aware that there were efforts made 20 to control dust -- 21 MR. .KAZAN: Excuse me. Y o u 're not 22 entitled to speak. We have been through this three or 23 four times. You have an associate here who you have 24 designated as your representative. If she has something 25 to say, that's fine. 3ut I will not permit the two of PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER J IT I: 1 you to take turns interrupting my questions. 2 . MR. HOT'IEM: Steve, where your question 3 is clearly wrong and misleading, I just got to speak up. \ 4 MR. KAZAN:. No, you don't have to speak. %* . . ' -. 5 You're under a court order to be quiet. And I'm not g o m e 6 to permit you to proceed and say anything. As far as I'm 7 concerned, any word you speak in this room has not been 8 said, and I will ignore it because the court has told me 9 I am free to ignore you. . 10 _ If you client has something it wishes to 11 say on the record, you have designated a perfectly capable 12 and competent attorney to reply for that client, and she 13 free to do that. 14 _ MR. HOTHEM: If y o u 're going to ignore 15 me, stop shouting at me and let's get back to the deposition. 16 MR. KAZAN: Could I have the last questicn, 17 Mr. Reporter? 18 (Record read.) 19 Q (By MR. KAZAN): Doctor, do you have that 20 question in mind? 21 A Yes." I think I answered a similar 22 question before, that they were concerned with air 23 pollution, I don't know specifically if it was asbestos 24 or what. But if.they were concerned with air pollution 25 and removed it, they would remove not only the other dust PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER 69 1 particles, but also asbestos. 2 Q And you knew .at that time that the 3 control of asbestos dust in the air was important for the 4 prevention of disease among the. workers? . \ 5 A I did. ' 6 Q And you mentioned earlier that at that 7 time, people didn't fully appreciate the magnitude of the 8 problem. By that, I take it you were referring to the g problem of the range of asbestos related diseases? 10 A Correct. And also the exposure that -- 11 not only would you have moderate exposure, minimal exposure 12 and zero exposure, all these were important in excluding 13 the dust responsible for this. 14 Q At that time in the forty's, I take it 15 you yourself were not aware of any cancer causing effect 16 of asbestos exposure, were you? 17 A In the forty's, the early forty's, no. 18 I learned about it in the early fifty's, mid fifty's. 19 Q And was it that, the cancer implication 20 of asbestos exposure, that you have in mind when you tall 21 about the greater magnitude of the problem that was 22 recognized later on? 23 A Well, yes. . 24 State that again. 25 Q Well, I wanted to clarify what you said PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER V*>" 70 I, .- '* 3^ 1 earlier about not appreciating the full magnitude of the 2 asbestos disease problem. Do I understand you correctly 3 to mean that at that time,-the connection between asbestos - \ 4 and lung cancer and musotheleoma was not fully '^appreciated? % * " - 5 A No, it was not fully appreciated at that 6 time. 7 Q Now, up until the time you left in 1950, 8 was the physical examination program for employees and 9 executives and supervisors still the same as it had been 10 in the early forty's? 11 A T h a t 's correct. 12 q You told us earlier that around 1950, you A 13 left to undertake your formal training in general surgery? 14 A Yes. ' 15 Q When you returned to the Berkeley area 16 in 1955, did you resume any kind of formal relationship 17 with Pabco or Fibreboard? 18 A No formal. It was aninformal relation 19 ship. Since I was then a recognized specialist in general 20 surgery, I was called in cases that were in my specialty. 21 Q You were then one of the specialists to 22 whom the plant referred? 23 A Correct. 24 q Did you limit your practice in that 25 fifteen- or sixteen-year period exclusively to general PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER 1 surgery or did you still do a little of the -old style 2 general practice like you had done before? 3 A No, I didn't do any general practice 4 because medicine had changed drastically. If you did 5 general practice, the general''practitioners wouldn't send 6 you the surgery. And I would take care of the patients 7 I operated on. If they had a cold, I wouldn't send them 8 to another specialist "or if they had an urinary tract 9 infection, I would take care of them, or some minor thing, 10 I just considered that part of the treatment. I sort of 11 wish people would be doing that right n o w . 12 q And you said earlier that around 1971 ' 13 you moved to Arizona? 14 A Yes. - 15 Q And for the first ten years, at least; 16 that you were here, you were happily involved with the 17 University and the V A, having left Fibreboard far behind? 18 A That's correct. q What was your first contact or connectior 19 20 with the asbestos litigation that has now brought you to 21 this conference room on a lovely Saturday morning? 22 A I have forgotten what time it was, but 23 someone with a pleasant, female voice called me and starts 24 talking. And I kept repeating: "What's this?" And where 25 did I work. And I soon found out that Nanette Hudson was PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER 'tes 1 representing, through her lav; firm, and I suppose, I'm 2 still not sure of the insurance carrier, who was taking 3 care of Fibreboard. - . 4 Q And did you have some conversations with n'- \ 5 Nanette Hudson? ^ 6 A Yes, I did. 7 Q Is that the same Nanette Hudson who is 8 sitting here at the table with us? g a Yes. I'm not sure if the one"who talked 10 to me first was the same, but her voice sure sounds like 11 it. 12 Q Did you, sometime before today, meet ' 13 someone who introduced herself as Nanette Hudson? 14 A ` Yes. - 15 g And is that the same Nanette Hudson we 16 are seeing here today? 17 A Yes. 18 g Did you have, in that first conversation 19 with Nanette Hudson -- that was over the phone? 20 A It wasover the phone. 21 g And-do you recall what ifanything she 22 asked you about your experience with Paraffine and Pabco 23 and Fibreboard? 24 A Questions similar to yours. Ican't 25 remember precisely what they were. There were a lot of PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER I II feras V 1G 1 them. 73 w _ 2 Q And among the- questions she asked you, 3 did she inquire whether in-the period from '38 to '42 and 4 '46 to '50, you were aware that asbestos poseer potential 5 health hazard? ^ ' ' 6 A Oh, yes. She asked me that. 7 2 What did you tell her when- she asked you 8 that? - 9 A I told her I felt this was true. Of 10 course, I have the advantage of having more knowledge 11 than the period that you were stating. And I mean I was 12 in pathology part-time with Dr. Fishbach, who was my old 13 professor of pathology at Northwestern. And I had an 14 additional six months at Highland-Alameda County Hospital. 15 And I had the experience of my surgical training, wher 16 I did thorasic surgery. This was part of our training. 17 And all during this time, despite this -- and, of course, 18 I'm well aware of the latent period. But all during this 19 time and all the autopsies I performed and all the chest 20 surgery, I either assisted at or performed with my pro 21 fessor, I never saw a.case of asbestosis. 22 C You said that, I think, you met Nanette 23 Hudson once before today? 24 A Yeah. I have had so many conversations / 25 with her. Was it only once? PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER w 1 Q And do I understand that she and Mr. 2 Beck from Fibreboard came out .and met here with you and 3 your attorney? - 4 A Yes. ^ \ 5 Q And you discussedmany of these same 6 issues with them at that time? 7 A Correct. ' 8 Q Now,'during one of those conversations, g did you provide her with a reference from medical literatujre 10 going back to that time? 11 A Miss Hudson asked me several times -- 12 she repeated the question as to whether I had any know- 13 ledge from my training concerning asbestosis, was I taught 14 this in m e d i c a l 'school. And I said, "Yes, I knew about 15 asbestosis." I d i d n 't know a lot, but I knew there was 15 such an entity. And she said, "Well, do you know where 17 you could find this?" When she was here with Mr. 3 eck -- 18 I forgot -- we were going to the restaurant or I was 19 driving you to your motel, I have forgotten what it is, 20 but, anyhow, in pursuit of one of these addresses, I 21 stopped at the hospital, took out an old Boyd Pathology 22 book. And it mentioned, in a very short paragraph, the 23 pneumoconiosis and listed among them was asbestosis. 24 Q You say this was a very old text. Was 25 this one that you yourself actually used in medical school^ PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER JSHI I I 1 A That isn't that old, but it-was older 2 than what we have now. It probably was published I 3 took that course in '33 - *34, so that it was sometime- 4 in the early thirty's. .^ v , \ . \ 5 Q And you have^\ept that text to this date? 6 A Yes. That was Boyd Pathology. Iforgot 7 the introduction to pathology or pathology. ' Boyd was a 8 prolific writer in pathology. He happened to be professor 9 of pathology at the University of Manitoba. 10 Q You haven't brought that text with you 11 today, have you? 12 A Ho. 13 Q Could I ask you, doctor, if you'd be 14 good enough to make a copy of the title page and copy- 15 right page of that book, along with a copy of the page 16 or pages that you referred Miss Hudson to? 17 a There was one paragraph only. 1Q o And if you'd be good enough to send that 19 to the court reporter, I'd ask that be attached as our 20 first exhibit to your deposition. 21 I would also like to attach, as exhibit 22 number two, a copy of your curriculum vitae that I'll give 23 the court reporter. 24 I believe he's got a copy of the notice 25 of deposition. I will hand him, for attachment as exhibi s, PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER 1 a copy of a corrected notice, indicating Tucson is 2 located not in California, but is in fact in Arizona. 3 And, obviously, they all found you, so that's no 4 problem. As well as a copy of' a letter that I" addressed 'N ' . 5 to counsel for Fibreboard this week. ' - 6 Let me review my notes. Perhaps 7 this would be a good time to stop t h e .tape and prepare 8 the next one. I m have just a few more questions 9 for the doctor. Thank you. .. - 10 [Whereupon, a brief recess was 11 taken at this time.] 12 Q By MR. KAZAN): Doctor, I have 13 just a few more questions that I'd like to ask you, to 14 clear up some of the points we were discussing the last 15 hour. 16 You mentioned that you understood 17 that the safety people were taking steps to control 18 dust from the insulation factory, and you made the 19 point that it wasn't just asbestos dust that they 20 were trying to control. Can you tell me whether 21 it was your understanding that there were other dusts 22 that they were trying to control in addition to asbestos 23 A ^Well, yes. There was talc and 24 magnesia and other components. And they were trying to 25 clear this from the atmosphere, the working atmosphere. PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER li m fi ta ------ --------- 1 c j i E38i 77 i 1 Q Was it your .understanding that these 2 other dusts that they were attempting to control also 3 carried with them some potential for hazards to exposed 4 workers? 5 A "S' ' - Yes. They were pathogenetic if they 6 were there in sufficient amounts. So I was trying to 7 bring out the point that they were trying to clear the 8 working atmosphere of pollutants. 9 Q They were trying to clear it of all the 10 pathogenetic or hazardous dusts? 11 A Yes, all dust. And you couldn't identify 12 that except seeing dust particles in the air and trying 13 to clear it. i 14 .. Q And at that time, as you have told us, 15 you knew that asbestos, among other dust, was potentially 16 hazardous? 17 A Yes, I did. 18 njC Was that knowledge common knowledge in 19 the field of medicine and ventilation control, if we can 20 call it that? 21 A At that time? 22 Q Yes. 23 A Yeah. I think most doctors knew about 24 asbestos being the cause of one of the pneumoconiosis. 25 And I assumed that people working in the industry knew PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER i i 1 this. 3ut, actually, since I knew about having a depo 2 sition -- well, before that, before -- after talking to 3 Miss Hudson on the telephone, I called some of my friends 4 that I knew there. And they said they were no^ aware of 5 all of the ramifications of aibestos. - ' 6 Q You called some friends that you knew 7 at Pabco? 8 A At Pabco. g Q Which friends were those, if IT may ask? 10 A Well, I talked to -- let's see. Harry 11 Hoops and -- I can't remember who else. I talked to some 12 of the people who worked there. And they were aware of 13 the fact that asbestos dust and the other dust in the 14 cutting rooms, and mixing-the asbestos, was harmful. 3ut 15 they did not know about all of the ramifications, as I* 16 was explaining to you previously. 17 Q Fine. I have no further questions at 18 this time, doctor. Thank you. 19 Nanette, I think it's your turn. 20 MR. HOTHEM: Steve, I 'll be examining 21 for Fibreboard at this deposition. 22 MR. KAZAN: You now withdraw all the 23 objections stated by Nanette earlier, following your 24 representation that she was your designated hitter? 25 MS. HUDSON: Those were your objections, PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER I U J'".'--- 1 Spellman in support of defendant Fibreboard's application 2 for an ex parte order. 3 And number eight will be a Notice of 4 Deposition and videotaping pursuant to C. C. P?v section 5 2019, over the signature of !l. Kazan, bearing this case's 6 caption. 7 And lastly, and marked exhibit number 8 nine for identification, is an order signed by Judge 9 Pollack, a judge of the Superior Court of the City and 10 County of San Francisco, State of California, and that 11 bears a date of November 11, 1982. 12 Dr. Perlmutter, before our recess, you 13 were talking about dust and dust at the Fibreboard plant, 14 the effort there, as you have explained, was an effort 15 to control dust in general; is that not true? ' 16 A Yes. 17 Q That would be dust at all areas of the 18 plant? 19 A Well, now are you talking about the plant 20 all inclusive work done there or just the insulation plant 21 Q I'm referring to the entire installation, 22 the entire installation, the entire operation. There was 23 an effort to control dust at all manufacturing sites, was 24 there not? 25 A Yeah, with particular emphasis on insula- PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER tion. They emphasized this more than the other places. Is my voice too low? I just wondered about that. ' . MR. KAZAN: No, it's fine, doctor, g (By MR. HOTHIsM) : And, the feeling was at that time that dust in general should be kept at a minimum in the manufacturing place or in the work place? A That's correct. q And this was true not only of jobs where asbestos was used, but jobs where there were other problerrs? A Correct. g At that time, there was noparticular singling out one raw product from another, whatever raw product that created dust,- there was an effort to suppress that dust? A As far as I remember. " 3ut as I said a second ago, there was more emphasis on insulation than there was elsewhere. g I believe you indicated that in the insulation area, the efforts at dust control were such that Pabco and Fibreboard were leaders in the industry? A As far as I am knowledgeable, this is so, because I was told an article appeared in a -- representirg the industry, manufacturers in the industry. And the * reason I gave it, I thought they were leaders, they PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER a dtint - a 1 licensed other people to utilize the same techniques that 2 they did. 3 Q .. Were the efforts that were made to keep 4 down dust successful in keeping down dust, to ^our obser- . 5 vation? % 5 ' 6 A The place I happen to know best was the 7 insulation, and I thought it was really quite a good job. 8 And the other places, -there's always an effort made, and 9 I thought they were doing everything well. ~ " 10 Q Now, the position of a plant physician 11 is a little bit different than that of a physician engaged 12 in general practice, receiving patients off the street, 13 is it not? 14 A 15 Q ' Correct.The position of plant physician is one 16 where you treat injuries that occur on the job such as 17 a broken arm, a sprained elbow -- 18 A Correct. 19 Q -- injuries ofthat type? 20 A Correct. 21 q Would it be fair to say that the injuries 22 that you would see would be the type of job accidents 23 that would normally occur out on the job, whether the 24 employee is working in a plant that produces asbestos 25 products or non-asbestos products? PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER 1 A The injuries? - 2 Q Yes. . 3 A Yes. ~ 4 Q Would it also be correct to s'^.ate that 5 most of the employees that yoh would see-would be for one- 6 shot type of things, where they would come in and they 7 would not require continuing treatment? - 8 A Well,- most injuries take more than one 9 time to follow up. But they were of short duration. 10 Q It would be sort of a first aid station, 11 but a more complete first aid station? 12 A Correct. 13 Q Because it was staffed by a physician? 14 A Yes. - 15 Q And if a -- * 16 ' A You know, first aid, .you just do that. 17 and that's it . But there was.a little bit. more because 18 there was continuing follow up. 19 Q 20 on Band-Aids. I know there was more than just putting 21 A Correct. 22 Q You had a nurse to do that. 23 A Correct. 24 Q What I'm getting at here, doctor, is that 25 if a patient had, for instance, an internal problem, like PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER 84 ipr" 1 bleeding ulcers, that's not the type of problem that woulc 2 be traditionally treated in a plant physician's facility? 3 A It would be referred to a private 4 physician. 5 Q \ --* > ' Then would Bt be fair to say that chronic 6 problems or problems of long duration would be referred 7 to a private physician? . 8 A Correct. g Q If someone had, for i n s t a n c e a "lower 10 G I problem of some kind that required constant treatment, 11 or ulcers, that would be a subject that would go to a 12 private physician? 13 ' A Correct. 14 Q If someone were to have, say, a chronic 15 smoker's cough, that would be a-matter that would be seen 16 by a private physician? 17 A Well, not exactly. If the patient or 18 the employee happens to come from an area such as an 19 insulation plant, we would investigate that cough. We'd 20 have x-rays taken. We would refer him to our consultant. 21 Q Now,, was there ever a diagnosis made of 22 any employee, that he had an asbestos-related disease? 23 MR. KAZAN: Excuse me. Is your question 24 related to diagnosis by this doctor? 25 *"m r . HOTIIEM: That's right. PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER c. 1 THE WITNESS: V" * All I can say is I never saw 2 a case of asbestosis when I was working there. And 3 actually, I can even add the other doctors who had been 4 there subsequent to my working there because I talked to 5 them, and they never saw a cash of asbestosis. I never 6 saw a case of asbestosis in practice of general surgery. 7 I never saw a case of asbestosis in the area, in the Bay 8 area, when I was in pathology. And I never saw one m 9 Detroit when I was doing thorasic surgery there'T " 10 Q (By MR. HOTHEM): Now, you have indicated 11 that if a problem was a problem of a variety where you 12 would refer it to a specialist, such as a pulmonary 13 specialist, or if a person had pulmonary problems, it 14 would be referred to a pulmonary specialist; is that 15 correct? ~ 16 A T h a t 's correct. 17 Q Now, did a pulmonary specialist ever 18 tell you or report back to you that any person that they 19 examined had an asbestos--related disease? 20 A Never. - 21 q And .it would be standard for a specialist 22 to report back to you and advise you? 23 A Oh, yes. 24 Q And as to the patients that you sent out 25 for x-rays and the patients that you sent out for pulmon- K3 PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER  W' ,,JW 1 ary examinations, did you ever at any time you worked for 2 Pabco receive a report that these individuals had an 3 asbestosis-related disease? 4 A Never. I might amplify this''^lightly. 5 I don't remember exactly when they started doing mini 6 x-rays for tuberculosis, primarily, the county was doing 7 this, and they x-rayed a large number of these people. . 8 And the reports, unfortunately, were not sent to us. They 9 said it goes to the patient's private physician.- But we 10 never had any returns saying the patient had asbestosis. 11 Q Referring you to the x-rays that you 12 mentioned before, I would take it that the x-rays were 13 not made at the plant? 14 A ' Never. - 15 Q You would refer the person to a radiolo 16 gist? , 17 A We referred him to the Provident'Hospital, SitvtAfiiM jWvvtf 18 chiefly. We sometimes sent them to Herricks and San 19 Marino Hospital, and also to a private radiologist by the 20 name of Edward Fonjue, who I haven't been able to locate 21 since then. And the doctors who were doing the x-rays 22 at Provident have no access to it because they just -- 23 they sent us most of these x-rays for our files. Some of 24 them they kept when the patient was in the hospital, kept 25 in their files. But they released those after a while. PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER 1 We got practically every one of them. _ 2 But one of the first things I wanted to 3 do was to have access -- when I heard from Miss Hudson 4 about this problem, I wante- d> to look at the x-rays. I 5 would have made a trip back there to look, at the X-rays 6 and charts. And there were neither charts nor x-rays 7 on file. 8 Q Now, when you would-' -ref er a patient out 9 for x-rays, normally, those x-rays would be read by a 10 radiologist, and you would receive a report? 11 A Right. Some of them were doubly read, 12 not only by the radiologist, but by the pulmonary speciali st. 13 Q And a radiologist would be someone who 14 is trained specifically to. read x-rays? 15 A Correct. * 16 Q They have not only four years of medical 17 school, not only an internship, but they also have a 18 lengthly and detailed residency on_the specific -- 19 A Correct. 20 Q -- discipline of reading x-rays, do they 21 not? . 22 A Correct. 23 Q And in these reports from the radiologist, 24 did any of them ever indicate to you that there was an 25 asbestos-related disease? PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER I I f c\ w 'V*' 7|[ ! _ h#* y 1 A We never had a report of asbestosis in 2 all the time I was there and the subsequent service by 3 the two doctors that followed me. 4 Now, you were talking about knowledge 5 of lung ailments or -- ^ . ' 6 A Pneumoconiosis. 7 2 -- pneumoconiosis. Thank you. When 8 you were talking about- that, you were talking about that 9 being a subject that was taught or a subject that was 10 covered perhaps in medical school? 11 A It was covered. That's a better term. 12 Q There are many subjects that are covered 13 in medical school, are there not? 14 A ' Correct.. 15 q Many of them are quite obscure, and the 16 last time you ever heard about them is on a test that 17 you have completed in medical school? 18 A That's right. . 19 Q And some of them are things that you see 20 more often in your practice; is that not true? 21 A Correct. 22 Q Now, referring you to the time period of 23 19 -- what are we dealing with here, 1933 to 1955. 24 A Wait. There was a space there when I 25 wasn't available. I was a tourist in uniform. PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER I SIS J1_ I 1? ~~T 1 Q That's when you were with the Army, I 2 believe. I'm going to refer you to that period of time, 3 and exclude, if you will, the time you were in the Army. 4 A Okay. \ ~- > 5 Q Now, as to hat period of time, you have 6 indicated that at no time did anyone have a diagnosis of 7 an asbestos related ailment, have a Pabco employee or any 8 employee with the -- - 9 A Well, I don't know -- at that'~time there 10 might have been an occasional individual who had the 11 exposure to dust. 12 Q But I'm talking about your knowledge. 13 A My knowledge? 14 Q Yes. . 15 A Well, but then I'm prefacing this remark 16 with what I just started to say, and some of these people 17 might have manifested symptoms of bronchitis or something 18 similar which was an early irritation from asbestos and 19 associated dust particles, and could have subsequently 20 developed. But I had no indication of that. I never had 21 the diagnosis from a .radiologist of asbestosis. 22 Q Now, before, I asked you about subjects 23 that are taught in medical school, and I think that you 24 would agree that there are literally thousands taught in 25 medical school, but don't necessarily come into practical PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER 90 ; ^3 II 2L y r 1 use in the profession. - 2 Now, as to the asbestos and asbestosis, 3 for that period of time that I just mentioned, that's 4 '38 to '4 5 , wasn't that one of those subjects? '^In other 5 words, it never really came up'iA your practice during tha 6 period of time? 7 ^ *38 to '41 was when I was '42, when 8 I was there, it never -- no, I never treated a patient 9 with asbestosis, whom X knew had asbestosis. 10 Q During that period of time, you did not 11 have occasion to even consider an asbestosis or asbestos- 12 related disease; is that not correct? 13 ' a Well, if someone had come into the 14 medical department at the .plant or come into my office 15 and complained about pulmonary symptoms, and I found out 16 where he worked, because if you take a decent history, 17 you'll always find out what occupation the individual is 18 in, and then I would have been suspicious. 19 q Dut you were not suspicious? 20 A No. I saw somd of these people and I hac 21 some x-rays taken, and they did not get the diagnosis of 22 asbestosis. 23 q As a matter of course, because you were 24 just out of medical school, you would take, probably, 25 histories that were more exhaustive than a physician who PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER has been out for -- A I always took- occupational histories. Q And you always made -- asked questions of workers as to where they worked and how long^ they worked? A Yes. ^ ' I must add to that, to the best of my knowledge, I haven't seen any of my 1938 .through 41, for many years. And I-'m certain that it was my experience that I gathered over the years, I had been verj-precise and a little strict on it. But we were taught to do good histories and physicals. And I can say that they are better than the average run these days. Q While you cannot recall a specific physical, you can recall generally your practice and procedures during that period of time? A Right. Q Now, I believe you indicated that a program to monitor for lead poisoning was implemented at some time during your employment with Pabco? A Following when the patient had symptoms of what we diagnosed as lead.poisoning, and which was corroboratec. by the laboratory in the findings and workup by I can't, remember if we had a hematologist/internist look at that or what. But it was a specialist in this type of thing. And so at that time, we instituted this monitoring regime PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER I I:2 J*? 92 1 on all people working, and I never saw another one followi ng 2 this because safety measures were instituted. Q Now, let me see if I understand this. 3 4 You diagnosed one patient -- ''v 5 A One or two, I> can't remember. We saw 6 some patient have lead poisoning, and we were able to 7 diagnose it promptly and started treating him under the 8 supervision of a specialist in this type of disease. 9 Q >Jhen you would come across an'Illness or 10 disease such as lead poisoning, you would naturally 11 suspect an industrial Origin? 12 Correct. If they work in the area where 13 there was lead. 14 Q And if lead was one of the ingredients 15 that was used? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And upon making this diagnosis, as a 18 matter of fact, Pabco instituted a program of monitoring 19 employees, did they not? 20 A Correct. On our suggestion. 21 Q And.when you would make a suggestion of 22 that type to monitor a group of employees, the company 23 would go ahead and do that? 24 A Right. 25 q And that was in fact done in the area of PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER lead poisoning? A q Correct. And there'was no plan instituted to monitor for asbestos-related exposure? v A Well, we s a w \ o cases of asbestosis. ' We saw no patients with symptomatology. We put our faith in preventative measures. The single best measure for the treatment of asbestosis is prevention, to establish a barrier, because there's no known treatment, actually, for asbestosis once it has been imparted in the individual, There's no medication that will dissolve it. And asbeste bodies are there, they have to be removed surgically. Anc in most instances, it's not feasible to do so. Q ' Now, you were asked a series let me rephrase the question. I had my hand over my mouth. You were asked a series of questions that related to whether certain volumes were given to you by Pabco. And Mr. Kazan read over a whole list of things, and you indicated that, no, those volumes were not given to you. Now, would it be normal for a physician to secure his medical books from his employer? A Let us say it's not uncommon. It s not uncommon. In many places they did this, many places. n You did have access to a medical PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER 1 library if you felt that that was appropriate? 2 A Yes, but it probably would have been more appropriate to have that handy. But I used the 3 4 library. '> Q And you mentioned that you would - 5 6 use a library whenever you had a question that needed 7 researching; is that correct? . 8 A Yes. Q And what library was that? - - 9 10 A The County Medical Society Library 11 or the University Medical Library, either at the University of California or Stanford. Then after Stanford 12 moved from San Francisco -- well, they still had the 13 14 large medical library across from the old Stanford 15 Medical School in San Francisco. I think it was taken, 16 over by the City or County, I'm not sure. 17 Q And they also had a medical library 18 at Berkeley, did they not? A No, they had it in the hospital. They 19 20 dicin't have a medical libary per se, but they had it 21 in Oakland at tne County Society. 22 q And the closest one would be the one 23 in San Francisco, a distance of about 15, 20 miles? 24 A Fifteen, 18 miles. 25 Q Did you ever feel that there was a PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER J ' r - # I J M P*"f* MW'\ r " 1 subject that should have been researched that was not 2 researched by yourself? . 3 A No. But one of the -- I didn't 4 have access to current journals. They were -- 'all these -- ^ > 5 journals are relatively expensive. And I had access ' 6 to the libraries, I didn't have my own journals. I 7 didn't subscribe to a long list of journals. 8 Q But- you did subscribe to some 9 journals? " 10 A Yes, but not in the industrial field. 11 I always, when I had occasion to look it up, I used 12 the library. 13 Q ' Did you ever request equipment or 14 books that you were refused? 15 A No. 16 Q I previously asked a series of 17 questions relating to the treatment of workers that you 18 would see in your offices, and whether any diagnosis 19 had been made of asbestos-related disease. And I'm 20 going to refer to that part of my examination and your 21 answers. And I don't-, want to go over it again. But 22 with reference to that, you have indicated that at the 23 present time, and that's with present knowledge, there 24 wasn't a recognition of the magnitude of the problem. 25 That's a statement that was based upon hindsight; is PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER } Ifl .f " ^r'"- '# ~-a'>'mIFv 96 1 that correct? - 2 A Correct. . Q And what you meant by that is that 3 the problem just wasn't recognized at that time by anyone 4 5 as far as you know? ^ ' A Well, they did recognize the dust 6 as a hazard. They did not realize, I feel certain, 7 what the consequences -would be by not having complete 8 9 elimination of the dust. ~ 10 Q And that dust, as a hazard, is the general effort of all manufacturers to reduce dust at 11 12 the workplace? ' a I'm not so sure that all manufacturers 13 14 do this, but they did it at Pabco. 15 Q And that was to reduce dust in all . 16 workplaces? 17 A At Pabco? 18 Q Yes. 19 A Yes. 20 Q Dr. Perlmutter, thank you for your 21 testimony and for meeting with us today. I have no 22 further questions. MS. JACKSON: I have no questions. 23 MR. KAZAN: I have a few things that 24 25 I'd like to clear up, Doctor, if I may. PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER 41 1 FURTHER EXAMINATION - 2 BY MR. KAZAN: ' 3 Q In general, you said that there 4 were as many as several thousand employees at the 5 Emeryville complex? "S ` ' 6 A Uh-huh. 7 q Did you generally, on the average, 8 let's say, see most of those workers every year or so? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Can you estimate the volume? 11 A A large volume. I would say that 12 there were certain individuals whom I would see many 13 times during the year. There were people who always 14 would go to sick call just like in the army or whatever, 15 you'd see them, you'd recognize them and y o u 'd get so 16 you asked about their family and all that sort of stuff 17 and how they were, and that sort of stuff. 18 Most people would come only as 19 needed. And I would say just roughly, anywhere from 20 35 to 50 percent of thepeoplewould show up once a 21 year. 22 ' ' q You alsosaid that you yourself did 23 not see any diagnosis of asbestosis at the Emeryville 24 Clinic Dispensary? 25 A Yes. PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER xi* * mm %j f-- --- a------- ------- j ^ . 'AtSI^ { Le^Jk. I i I - * '- i*s` i# '* 1 -I98 r y 1 Q And as far as you know,"the other 2 doctors who worked there when-you were around also 3 didn't see any in Emeryville? 4 A 5 had never- I asked them that questionvand they -- - > . 6 Q You were aware that Fibreboard had a 7 plant in Redwood City making insulation? 8 A Yes. 9 . Q You never saw workers from that . 10 plant, did you? 11 A No. 12 Q And you have no personal knowledge 13 of the experience of those workers with respect to 14 occupational disease or whether any of them got sick 15 and if they did, when it happened? 16 A No. I was not privy to that 17 information. 18 Q And again, your information was that 19 the use of asbestos in Emeryville pretty much began in 20 1941? 21 A Correct. 22 Q You told me that -- 23 A Pardon me. There was another asbestos 24 product that I 'm not -- I wasn't aware what was going 25 on with it. There was an asbestos paint, and we saw PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER i i te w v H 14 JU '`je-*- M * 9 9 Igr 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 2 22 23 24 25 no problems with it. Actually, it was wet, -of course, and I d o n 't remember having any patient come in with complaints asbestos. referable to the paint, manufacturer of . ^---v-\ , \ v q There's on^ other area that I 'd like to go back over because I'm not sure I'm clear on it. Mr. Hothem asked you about whether you have made a diagnosis of asbetosis, and you said no. And he asked about whether you ever considered' it. Do I understand your testimony to be, Doctor, that on occasion, you would see workers from the insulation plant who came in with respiratory complaints? A Uh-huh. Q Is that correct so far? A That's correct. * q And that when you would see such worker, knowing of the potential hazards of their asbestos exposure for the development of asbetosis, you would consider in a differential diagnosis of conditions that had to be ruled out, the possibility that that worker might be showing signs or symptoms of asbestos-related disease? A Correct. . q And you'd do a physical examination? A Correct. PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER I i /... | i ; %: 'M`_ W/- ' Tsr y- ,4 ,.^ ') `v~ *pr?'&mrA D*' Oi 1 Q And send the patient for an X-ray? 2 A That's right. 3 Q And on-occasion, refer the patient 4 to a chest specialist? A Correct. % 5 Q And the purpose of doing all that 6 7 was specifically to rule out asbestosis? 8 A Right. Q And you're telling us that"having 9 10 gone through this process, as far as you recall, other 11 explanations were found for those patients' symptoms 12 and, in fact, no diagnosis or impression of asbestosis 13 was ever confirmed? 14 A ` Correct. Q But every time an asbestos exposed' 15 16 worker presented to you with the kind of problems that 17 could conceivably be related to asbestos exposure, you, 18 as a physician, considered the possibility that this 19 was asbestosis? 20 A Correct. 21 Q And this issomething that happened 22 from time to time throughout your years at FibreBoard? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And also the same sort ofthing would 25 happen when workers would come in from other plants with PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER > ft&V* -v . - r a r .fil "-i i in I i H j.iK- 'V * ' symptoms tnat could be construed to be developing from 1 2 the plant they were working in. Q So you were concerned about all the 3 possible occupational diseases that might be generated 4 . 5 in that facility? "% ' ' ' 6 A Correct. 7 Q Now, you talked somewhat about lead 8 poisoning? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Is that an acute disease? A It's both acute and chronic. 11 Q How long an exposure to excessive 12 13 amounts of lead does it take before somebody gets sick? A Well,' it's a cumulative thing, and 14 15 the amount might be very small. So by increments, 16 it would go -- it might take as long as a year or longer 17 With children sometimes chewing on 18 the old lead paint in their cribs, they would get it 19 within a short time because it does -- compared to 20 the size of the individual was such that they'd get it. 21 Q Was the lead poisoning that you saw 22 at Emeryville a more acute disease, somebody who got a 23 big dose? 24 A No, it was a chronic thing, 25 ordinarily. And we corrected the problems that gave that PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER exposure to having the material on their hands and et cetera. We saw that they used proper hygiene and they were away from exposures where they could get that Q Did Fibreboard, in its safety program, wait until there wete cases of lead poisoning before instituting these precautions that you have described? A Q Yes, they did. And having taken those precautions that dealt with the problem, you didn't see more lead poisoning? A ' q No. ' When Mr. Hothem was questioning you about dust control in the plant and so on, were you talking about general-nuisance dust, household dust, . dirt blown in from outside as well as the pathogenic dust in the atmosphere? A Well, I was talking about all dust that they had as a result of the -manufacturing processes there. So I mean some of these were pathogens; some weren't. But, you know, enough of the dust, which ordinarily would be benign is still a hazard to people with hazards. There are people with other things. So all dust was attacked. The area of the insulation plant was attacked extra heavily and the area where they were PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER manufacturing the shingles that they ground up and put up also was attacked because it appeared to be a hazard from the standpoint of the insulation because of the asbestos and the related products there. And from there, the shingles, similarly, they were hazards. Q So that aside from the general housekeeping cleanliness aspect, it was your observation that special precautions were taken at the insulation plant because of the asbestos dust and at the "shingle plant because of the slate dust or whatever else they were using? A And they had some quartz mixed with it, too. But I'm not sure of the exact composition. But there were problems.MR. KAZAN: Fine. I have no further questions, Doctor. Thank you very much. FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR. HOTHEM: Q Doctor, just a few questions. A-series of questions were asked of you relating to respiratory ailments. Now, I would presume that the most common respiratory ailment that a plant physician would treat would be an employee with a runny nose that doesn't want to continue working or PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER iPfli4[s, J V-^^% i I i. '%I., _ . _ _ _ _ _ - -* wants off for the day; is that not true? 1 A Yes. That was probably the most 2 common. But there were a-lso people with chronic 3 upper-respiratory infections who would arouse 'our 4 suspi.cx.ons. 5 '' X^ * ' - Q And in many of those workers, you 6 would receive a long history of cigarette smoking or 7 tobacco use or abuse,-would you not? 8 A Yes. There's no question that the 9 association of tobacco smoking, cigarettes, particularly 10 not so much cigars, that was very low. There was hardly 11 -- there was a small statistical difference between 12 non-smokers and cigar smokers, but there was nothing 13 like the difference between cigarette smokers and the 14 others. And the association -- now that you mentioned15 it, the association between smoking and asbestos, in 16 which they acted sort of symbiotically, was early on 17 18 noticed. Q 19 By "early on noticed," you're referring 20 to a few years ago or 10 years ago? A Let's see. I think that was noticed - 21 Q If you have any knowledge on that. 22 23 Don't guess on the date. 24 A I don't know. I can't give you an accurate date, but it's my impression, as I recollect, 25 PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTER I J ^ _ jjlj^ ' ^ >y :v-r-S&r T 'Sj.V*' 1 ~~ ' f**lf*--I>'-^Pr'-yi-4vi-f'-ftte-J-^sH-OS\.tk-F 1 -w ^ 1 that it was in the '40's, late '40's, early 50' s. 2 Q Do you have any knowledge one way or another or any source on that one way or another? 3 4 A Seliko--f*f.> `_ \ 5 Q The Selikoff article was in '64. - A Was it '64? Time goes very rapidly. 6 7 Q So you were making that 8 observation based upon the Selikoff article? 9 A Right. 10 Q Then your time estimate you would 11 correct to be -- 12 A Correct. 13 Q And that was when you mentioned 14 something about'cancer being known, that was also 15 first explored by Dr. Selikoff, was it not, in the - 16 '60's, and Dr. Selikoff again was in '74? 17 A His work started in the '60's. 18 Q But it wasn't published until 19 A I can't remember exactly. 20 Q And the time that that was known, 21 of course, was when Dr. Selikoff chose to make it 22 known through publishing his research. 23 A Correct. TCfM Q 'Your reference to cancer was as a 25 result of the information that you had received in PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER ) I 8 -xm KHE.-:3 ss .A "W # **'- li#'.' r 4 m # s?'^ *10%^! 1 reviewing Dr. Selikoff's articles? " 2 A Yes. But X knew this before. I 3 knew it more precisely after I read Dr. Selikoff's article. 4 , \ "N ` ' - 5 Q Now, you indicated that you had worked with Dr. Wahle? 6 7 A Uh-huh. Correct. 8 Q And Dr. Wahle was theperson that 9 you came to assist when you first came with the plant.?. 10 A T h a t 's correct. 11 Q While you were working withDr. Wahle, 12 you and Dr. Wahle would confer on matters relating to 13 industrial exposures and industrial ailments and 14 illnesses and diseases and injuries that workers 15 frequently received? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Dr. Wahle treated not only patients 18 in the Emeryville facility, but also treated patients, 19 I believe, at the Redwood City facility? 20 A No, that is not correct. He was in 21 charge, you know. W e 'were self-insured, and he was 22 responsible for the insurance program at Emeryville, 23 Antioch, which was Fibreboard, and Redwood City, and 24 some other place else, I don't know. 25 Q Then his knowledge of workers' injuries PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER 1 and illnesses would cover all of those facilities, would 2 they not? ' 3 A Anything* that was compensable. 4 q Well, anything where a claim^wasmade "X ` 5 against the employer at that time? ' * - 6 A Okay. A claim. 7 Q And did Dr. Wahle indicate to you at 8 any time that he was concerned or had diagnosed let 9 me rephrase my question. 10 Did Dr. Wahle indicate to you at any 11 time that he had diagnosed any cases of asbestos-related 12 diseases or ailments? 13 A He did not. And I had asked people 14 who worked in the office about these claims and the 15 individual who handled the claims over in San Francisco 16 initially, but then it was given to someone else. I 17 can't remember the name of the person who was doing it 18 then or now. And there was no history of any claim. 19 And, of course, this was confirmed by Dr. Adamson, who 20 stayed there, I think, until '70. I can't remember the 21 d a t e . ' 22 Q Now, was there ever an effort made by 23 the medical staff to favor management employees over non 24 management employees in the medical services and care that 25 was given? PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER I>3f*ts y ' 1 -'/t'';-! h &m V j * '# J ^ |p|f f^ll^ V'^A^ksH mmio&M A No, there was no effort to do this. 1 It was just -- it was popular at that time that the 2 executives be checked so that they wouldn't drop dead 3 suddenly without any backup. And it was offered to 4 them, and not all of them accented it. I can't remember 5 how many did. I saw some of the executives. And most 6 of them went to their own doctors. I don't think they 7 thought that the plant -doctor was as reliable as their 8 own doctors that they went to. ~ 9 . Q And the persons that you would see wouljd 10 be those that got by your nurse? 11 A Oh, yes. Actually, it was available, 12 but it wasn't utilized very much. 13 Q Now, you have indicated that prior to 14 testifying today, you have spoken with Miss Hudson of my 15 office? 16 A That's right. 17 Q Have you also spoken with Mr. Kazan? 18 A Yes. Mr. Kazan contacted me. 19 Q And did he telephone you? 20 A He telephoned my attorney, Mr. 21 22 Rappeport. 23 And did he Actually talk with you on the 24 telephone? 25 No, he didn't. He never did. I talked PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER w>4v>',. ':iWm js j';S| H i # ^ ^ & g g 1' fgMXte _ j Z 109 to a lot of people. He did not. He talked to Jack. 1 Q Did you ever meet with him personally? 2 A Yes. I-met him yesterday. 3 Q Tha t 's yesterday? \ 4 -- - ' A Uh-huh. % 5 Q And I imagine he asked you some of 6 the same questions that he asked you today? 7 A Yes,' some of the same questions. 8 Q And he generally asked questions 9 relating to your care and treatment of employees of Pabco: 10 11 A Correct. Q And you would talk and provide 12 knowledge and information to anyone who would come and 13 14 ask you for it? ' A If they were cleared by Mr. Rappeport. 15 Q It used to be they had to get through 16 17 your nurse, now they got to get through your attorney? 18 A Right. 19 Q And Mr. Rappeport is an attorney 20 practicing here in Tucson? . 21 A Yes-. 22 Q He doesn't represent any party to this 23 litigation, does he? 24 A No, he's representing me. And he 25 felt if the party was to come on one side, I talked to /C. PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER IJ.-jh r J -- rs--- tf^r itS IkJi<a,A l# 4% *AJ,i.Jfefe -:^t|f#9f F-'Pfii?jfW-W ! '-W ' - ^ p f ------ ----------- *- them; and if they came on the other side, I could talk 1 2 to them. Q 3 And youhaven't attempted to show favoritism to one side or^the other? \ 4 A No. I wisift they had never come. But 5 once I met them, they were agreeable that 6 I agreed to discuss the problems with them. - 7 Q And' prior to reporting here for your 8 deposition, have you ever spoken witn me? 9 A No. 10 Q Today is the first time you have 11 12 seen me? 13 A Y e s . q ' And the first time I asked you any 14 questions is when I have asked you questions today on * 15 tiie record here in front of the camera? 16 A That is correct. 17 MR. HOTHEM: I have no further 18 19 questions. 20 - -FURTHER EXAMINATION 21 22 BY MR. KAZAN: Q 23 Doctor, just so that there's never any confusion later on, i t 's also true that I met with 24 25 you and your attorney Monday night of this week? PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER s^'r^' L&-J? fc*^?'tj^>..,/Pi? - tMo^-J ' W v "%- ff til 1 A That's right. This has been till 2 I stopped in. 3 Q I know you have been having xa great 4 time doing this. 5 A 6 Q % * . Oh, great. Just wonderful. - - But we did meet Monday night and 7 again briefly yesterday? ` 8 A Yes. ----- 9 Q Just so there are no secrets. 10 A No, there are no secrets. 11 MR. KAZAN: I have no further . 12 questions. It looks like there are no further questions -- 13 from anybody. . 14 Thank you for joining us this morning, 15 Doctor. 16 THE WITNESS: And this afternoon. 17 MR. HOTHEM: And I hope we never have 18 to see each other again, and I'm sure you share that 19 hope. 20 21 22 HENRY PERLMUTTER, M.D. 23 - 24 ****** 25 PETER A. LUMIA CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER A Y' OF P A T H^Ov L, O G Y\ AN INTRODUCTION TO MEDICINE BY . . AVILLIAM B O Y D M .D ., M .R . C . l ' , K<1.. F .R .C .P , Loral.. D ip l. P sych, F .R .S .C . p a o F E a a o R o r p a t h o l o o y in t h e u n iv e r s it y o f Ma n it o b a ; b t h u u w b i t o t h e WINNIPEO U E N E H I. HOSPITAL, WINNIPKO, CANADA secosd editios,riiouoraniA' revised ILLUSTRATED W IT H 416 ENGRAVINGS AND 8 COLORED PLATES LEA & FEBIGER ' P I I I L A I ) 10 L P H I A PEEFACi Although only book was published The order of the firs' ation of the degen turbances, especiall; leads up naturally 0>l`* Kn.ltT LKA A FKH1GKR 1934 whilst immunity, a' follow in logical sey. from tumors. The ter in which an eiuh so that the student : starts .upon his jouri is occupied mainly disease, concludes wi the constitution of t i Skco.vd Fuition Copyrighted August, I0A4 RiPRIN'TU) 0( TOBER, 1934 dence and progress bacterial infections I more logical order, a, immunity and alk-rg\ largely rewritten. A second part of the b< of the teeth regarding Among other nea t trauma, von Gierke's l dren, the looalizanoi causation of anginal angiitis obliterans in- bom, duodenitis, ,ta ture in chronic Brigh frinTi n in u s a. the ovary, sweat g!a' roid tumors, Cushing' i _ tension, monocytic U Geschickter and Copi ; ? S' !C- Ssuffer. ( statone-wu'' M u s t COllt: *u time. The p;i ybrane by ,t^e shtirj: gjb slowly ^chemieal ;totd the `touch gri |tespondiii [to the tci pg. i7.-:. ""alpated irosis b. THE PNEUMOCONIOSES. The long-continued inhalation of certain irritating ael,lie interstitialpneuh.oni.knout." f (fto P ^ l The outcome ofthesedust diseasesisentirelydependen `1 Id atnonntofsilicon.thedust- The are silicosis ami asbestosis, both of which may be disaoung Anthroeosis. a condition caused by the inhalatton of otrbon dust, isharmless in comparison. diseases,andP ^ M v i S S l i '' t o r d l ' X ,-u 175.-.' 1,and acitv o |;inarke<l actioampan|Most si'P'tissue ^silica a: dent ox .' ami ithe sa kpatien i dust. ft. -ifei 4 LUa GS 1 \// 459 suffer. Other occupations in which there is m.r stone-corking, mctal-grmdmg and sand-blasting' I,, ,l[ 5 d !!'']!'"'"5 ' dusi r t M ,,,g aae particles ,, , silica may fie ,, f . ^ tiVtlfi:,'.-.W i 'S';-#-<> "Jfe'><S..*:.-. *:>$: '.- C- I he particles, which are taken up from the bronchial miaous mcm brane by phagocytes and carried into the lvm nlm i,^ ' V fre sharp and angular, but the real danger lies h, the fact i l m d i S is slowly soluble ,n t.ssu e flui.ts, and In this form exerts a specific chemtcal act,on. When rejected subcutaneously it- praduees ,,e TM " and the slow react,on m the lung results partly in L e r e s , b To a much greater degree m fibrosis. The fibrosis is at first n i l h responding to the deposits of silica in minute lvmnh folli ? *?' r' to the tenuma! bronchioles, and takes the form of `4 ic ' (Fig. 170), composed of concentric layers of fibrous t h i ,, . T r palpated in the lung. These nodules gradually coalesce and the Bbrosis becomes widespread. In extreme cases the lung becomes vy.'rj'.-"wis Kk -- ,R r~r<;-v . 6- ":vtr< ,t- ^ b ill%;:'k&ii'TigTi.ki---lOf&uw :f-& ,-jare > a 1 sr?3W")S^-iSBe> ,1 <'C'Sj& .& *il si F,o. 175. S ilieosia. F ib r o u s n o d u l e s t n th e l u n , t h e r Z . l t o f r h l a t i o p b y I r t i W c , (lf - bard, and in one instance I had to saw the lung in two. The functional capacity of the lungs is greatly interfered with, and the chief " n on v L ? marked dyspnea. Ih e necrotizing action of the silica mav destruction^ and cavitation, but these changes are usuall accompanying tuberculosis. - \ c to an Most sihcotics die of tuberculosis because the presence of sib,-, the tissues favors the growth of tubercle b a c i l l i to an ' a tonisim, ` degree. This 'i as f lwun.*?>', G^'e and Kettle, who injected a mixture of silica and tubercle bacilli into mice and observed very rani, T l 1 opment of the tuberculous loslo,,. When silk_J is ,, ^ j out!) and tubercle b a d ,are rejected ,,traveuously on the foil,,!,re day the same effect ,s observed. Tbe tuberculous nfcction to , h Sl ^ sT iuccurabsmayu' ,, i r e ' t i : Pulmonary asbeslosis iadue to the inhabitinn of,, i t , ,. eoataiaover50percentofsilica. The diseaseisacquirS^tS dunng"the % il re .e4! Wm `''."Ifiv -i.- 1. - UV,,^ u c , , * F - " J pi? -- ii : *'mV 5;,~~f-n,5 - i> -, yo t ^ ,*.-*w--t : >w Vi .( J ;V " -'" 'V ' ' f t . f < tr -: . t J T; jy ^ R f, iiTc- ' ri^lsfct-k' ~/v W '^ V-Vi-'^5 t-r ^!->, _._ ..fru_) .ifcnHjb ,'"-^'mdidm'l >- ;`;ltiri'ii .iliII! liguri ! 4f>0 THE RESPIRATORY SYSTEM crushing of asbestos rock or in the process of carding the asbestos. The lung shows the airless and fibrosed condition found in silicosis, and on the cut sur face there are areas of caseation with cavity formation. The characteristic! microscopic feature, in addition to a large amount of silica dust, is the presence of large angular particles which are probably fragments of asbestos fibers, and curious golden-yellow bodies with a globular end anc. segmented body. (Fig. 176.) The latter structures, which may be called asbestos bodies, are pathogno monic of the condition, but their exact nature is not understood. Anthmco.fis, due to coal dust, is the commonest bui least harmful of the dust diseases. It is found in coal miners, but a varying amount of coal dust is present in every lung a t autopsy, and no share line can'be drawn os to the amount which co n stitu te anthracosis It does not cause much irritation as it is insoluble, siit' and a lung may be loaded with it yet show little fibrosis. T he carbon particles are taken up by mono nuclear phagocytes and deposited in the interlobular septa, the deep layers of the pleura, and the bronchia! lymph nodes. All of these structures and especially ' the lymph nodes acquire a coal-black color. Anthra- cosia does not predispose to tuberculosis; indeed, coal miners are singularly free from that disease. ' broncho- s t R pn'"mu' "* " ig ? to develi M There a n Ifeg? from 1 w-i: Syrnpto e: H) e sign, o comli . lesions of tl; inhal; -- Tht as liq Sl?ity mil gagged . Name: Henry Abbott Perlmutter, M . D . Home Address: 4 6 0 Valle del Oro Road, T uc so n, Arizona 85704 _ College: University of California, Berkeley, California, 1929-1933, A.B. ' \ -rt. V V - Medical School: Northwestern University Medical School, - . Chicago-Evanston, Illinois, 1933-1937, M.B. - Completion of Internship, 1938, M .D. Postgraduate Education: / Internship, Santa Clara County Hospital, San Jose, California, . 7 - 3 7 to 7 - 3 8 (Rotating) San Joaquin County Hospital, Stockton, California (Assistant Resident Surgery), 7-1-50 to 7-1-51 Highland-Aiameda County Hospital, Oakland, California ' (Assistant Resident Pathology), 7-1-51 to 1-1-52 ' Wayne University Medical School Hospitals (Detroit Receiving Hosp ital, Detroit, Michigan and Veterans Administration Hospital, Dearborn, Michigan), 1-1-52 to 1-1-55 Chief Surg. Resident Detroit Receiving Hospital, 1954 to 1955 Academic Positions: ..... Professional Career: Present Hospital Staff: Assistant Instructor in Surgery, Wayne University Medical School, Detroit, Michigan, 1-1-52 to 4-1-55 ' C l i n i ca l Instructor in Surgery, 1963 to 1966, and Assistant Clinical Professor in Surgery, 1966 to 1971, University of Californi, Medical School, San Francisco, California Adjunct Assoc. Professor of Surgery, University of Arizona Medical School, 1972 to 1978 Adjunct Professor of Surgery, University of Arizona Medical School, 1978 to date C ertification by American Specialty Boards: American Board of Surgery, 1957; Fellow American College of Surgeons , i960 - General P r a c t i c e in Berkeley, California, 12-38 to 5 - 4 2 U . S . Army S e r v i c e , 5 - 4 2 to 10-46 General P ractice in Berkeley, California, 1946 to 1950 Residence Training in Surgery, 1950 to 1955 Private P r a ct i ce - General Surgery, 1955 to 1970, in Berkeley, California, and Richmond, California Veterans Administration Medical Center, Tucson, Arizona V , r J P W ; ' *#r IJ .4, Previous fospital Staffs: t V (.7 3 B w l .*! -<^r ^ ' Active Staff: Herrick Memorial Hospital, Berkeley, California 1939 to 1971 Brookside H o sp it a l, San Pablo, California, 1955 to 1971 Richmond Ho spi ta l, Richmond, California, 1955 to 1971 Consultant: Highland General Ho spi ta l, Oakland, California, 1955 to 1971 (formerly Highland-Alameda County Hospital} San Francisco General^Hospital, San Francisco* California (University of Calif - Service), 1963 to 1970 Courtesy: Alta Bates H o s p i t a l , Berkeley, California, 1967 to 1971 Children's Hospital Medical Center, Oakland, Cal ifo rn ia , 1960 to 1971 Professional Activities: Chief of Staff, - Veterans Administration Medical Center, T uc so n, Arizona, 1971 to date Professional Committees: Dean's Committee Professional Standards Board Physi cal Standards Board Clinical Executive Board, Chairman C linica l As si st ant Review Board Discharge Planning Committee, Chairman Emergency Preparedness Committee, Alternate Chairman Equipment Committee Facilities Master Plan & Space Utilization Committee Financial & Position Management Committee, Alternate'Chairman Hospital Accreditation & Medical Bylaws Committee, Chairman Infection Control Committee Joint Conference Council Research &-Development Committee S er v ice U . S . Army: 1st Lt to Lt Col A . U . S . (1942 to 1946) 1942 to 1944 - 9 6th Inf Div. Cont U . S . A . 1944 to 1945 - 36th General Hospital (Wayne State University Unit) on detached se r v ice Surgeon's Office - Peninsula Base Section Italy 1945 to 1946 - Surgeons Office - Delta Base Section So. France