Document 1QD3D5e7MZxm2D44pEb6q1zGo

m i n i h b d s u m s o n n i e i coot* SOOXBBM DISTRICT OF W ST VX&0IHZ4 cB taucsica, w s r v m o is u JA BS M. A M B S i A d n in titr a to r ) o f Ehs B atata o f Balpb B. A dklaa, ) M e n a d i at al* ) ) F lalaeiffa, ) . M0B8AB1D COBtMMT* a Dala tta re C orp o ratio n , ) ) ) ) ) ) Dafandaat. ) Sa. 61*2098 Dap o s itio n o f WILLIAM R. QDSLL takan oo babaif o f tha P laintiffs. R ip o rta r: M. Joy S p rin ta r J a m e s M ay R e p o r t in g S e r v ic e C E R TIFIED S H O R TH A N D REPORTERS R.R. 2 - BOX 65 EDW AROSVILUE. IL L IN O IS 62025 1 IN THE unitili; states d ist r ic t court SOUTHER!* DISTRICT OK WEST VIRGINIA 2 CHARLESTON, WEST VIRGINIA 3 4 JAMES M. ADKINS, Admin Is era tor ) o f the E sta te o f Ralph E. A dkins, ) 5 Deceased, et a l, ) ) P la in tiffs, ) 7 vs. ) ) No. 81-2098 8 MONSANTO COMPANY, a LeLaware ) ) C o rp o ra tio n , 9> Defendant, ) 10 i 11 APPEARANCES: 12 M essrs, C a lw ell, McCormick & Peyton, 13 by John H. Skaggs, E s q ,, and W. S tu art C a lw e ll, J r . , Esq. For P l a i n t i f f s , VA M essrs. Bowles, McDavid, G raff & 15 Love, by Charles M. Love I I I , Esq, For Defendant. 16 17 18 IT IS STIPULATED AKD AGREED by and between 19 co u n sel fo r the p l a i n t i f f s and co u n se l fo r the d efendant 20 th a t the d e p o sitio n o f WILLIAM S. UDELL may be taken 21 pursuant to Rule 26(a) o f the F ed eral Rules o f C iv il 22 Procedure, on Ju ly 18, 1983, a t the R adisson H o te l, 23 Room 215, 9th S tr e e t and Convention P la z a , S t . L o u is, 24 M issou ri, b efore M. JOY SPRINGER, a N otary P u b lic w ith in 25 and fo r the County o f Madison, S ta te o f I l l i n o i s ; th a t JAMES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER V IC E 1 the issu a n ce o f n o tic e and dedimus i s w aived, and that z' 'N. 2 t h is d e p o sitio n say or taken w ith the setae fo rce and V. 3 e f f e c t as i f a l l F ed eral r u le s and s ta tu to r y requirem ents 4 had been com plied w ith . 5 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED th a t any 6 and a l l o b je c tio n s to a l l or any p a rt o f t h is d e p o sitio n , 7 excep t o b je c tio n s as to form o f the q u estio n s asked or 8 answers g iv e n , are hereby reserv ed and may be r a ise d 9 on the t r i a l o f t h is cau se; and th a t the sig n a tu re o f 10 the deponent i s not w aived, n >- Vr ** -> -ir * -V ^ 12 13 14 15 16 WILLIAM R. UDELL 17 produced, sworn and examined on b eh a lf o f the p l a i n t i f f s , 18 deposes and says as fo llo w s : 19 EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. SKAGGS; 21 22 23 24 V . 25 (Whereupon th e re p o r te r marked P la in - t i f f s 1 D ep o sitio n E x h ib it #344 (Monsanto #8314593 through #8314600) co n sistin g o f 8 'L*' pages; E x h ib it #345 (Monsanto #8319226, #8315347, #8315346, # 8 3 U 3 & T ^ tf3 4 * T JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E ;vJ_ J (\ W ^ ^` 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 #8315343, #-315342, #315341, #5315340, #8315333, #3315338 '>8315337) c o n s is tin g o f 13 pages; E x h ib it #34 (Monsanto #8321506 and #8321507) c o n s is tin g o f 2 pages; E xhibit #347 (Monsanto #8307638 through #8307648) c o n s is t in g o f 11 pages; E x h ib it #348 (Monsan to #83214'98 through #8321503, #8321415 through #832430) c o n s is t in g o f 24 pages; E x h ib it #349 (Monsanto #055679, #055660, #055662, #055683, #055688, #055689, #055691, #055692, #^536:;7 , #0533, #055703, #055705, #055706, #05700, #055709, #055710, #055712, #055713 through #055716, #055726 through #055729, #057327, #057325, #057330, #057339, #057336, #057338, #057337, *055730, #057099, #057162, #057400, #057411, #057420, #057554, #057557, #057707, #05771E, #057721, #057727, #057730, #05773?, #0577~, #057749, #057761, #057762, #057769, #057774, #057776, #057780, #8317460 through #8317474) c o n s is tin g o f 68 pages; E x h ib it #350 (Monsanto #69535, #69536, #69562, #69563, #69564, #69566, #69539, #69r.40, #695 3 8 , #69537, #69535, #69536, #69537i" #69538, 7- : - * t ^ s#695 3 9 , #69540, #69564, #69566, # 6 9 3 6 2 ,i.#695 63) c o n s is tin g o f 38 pages; E x h ib it #351 (Monsanto JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER VIC E `* * 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 If '''[ 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 #001564 through 001569} co n sistin g of 6 pages; E xhibit 352 (M onsanto *8314271, #8314272, #8314305, #8314312, *057965, #8314313, *8314320, *057971, *057972, *8314322, #8314324, #8314327, #8314332, #8314333, #8314323, #8314357, #8314358 #8314359, #8314541, #057981, #057982, #8314542, *8314591, *8514592, *8314667, #8314668, #057864, *057865) c o n s is tin g o f 28 pages; E x h ib it *353 (Monsanto *8314585, #8314584, *8314582, #8314531, #8314580, #8314579, #8314578, #8314577, *3314576, #8214575, #8314574, #8314573, *8314572, *8314571, #8314570, #8314569, #8314565, #8314566, #8314565, #8314564, #3314563, *8314562, *8314561, #8314560, #8314559, #8314558, #8314557, #8314556, #8314555, #8314554, *8314290, #8314289, *8314288, #8314287, #8314286, #8314285; #8314284, #831*283, #6314282, #8314281, #8314280, *8314279, #8314278, #8314543, #8314544, #8314551, #8314550, #8314549, #8314548, #8314547, #8314546, #8314545, #055515, #055469, #055468, *055467, #055521, #055462, #8314553, `.#8314552,' #8314292, #8314294, #8314291, #055ft^, # 055412* *055411, #055410, #055409, #055408^*05540^ *055406, JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E 1 2 V.J 3 #055405, #055402, #055401, #055400, #055357, #0553til, #055380, #055377) c o n s is t in g o f SO pages; and E x h ib it #354 (Monsanto #004800 4 through #004647) c o n s is tin g o f 48 pages, 5 for the purposes o f id e n tific a tio n .) Q (By h r . Skaggs) H i, Hr. U d e ll. My 7 name i s John Skaggs., I'm going to be a sk in g you " few 8 q u e s tio n s , and i f th e r e 's an yth in g you d o n 't understand, 9 f e e l fr e e to t e l l rae and I w i l l tr y and rephrase i t . 10 Would you s t a t e your name fo r the 11 r e c o r d ,p le a s e . 12 A W ilUnr, r . U d e ll. 13 Q And what i s your homa a d d r e ss, s ir ? 14 A No. 60 Tealwood D riv e, Creve Coeur, 15 M isso u ri. 16 Q And what i s your b u sin ess address? 17 A 800 North Lindbergh, S t . L o u is, M isso u ri. 18 Q And what i s your o ccu p a tio n , s ir ? 19 A I'm a c h em ist, Research Manager, a c t u a lly 20 Q And where are you employed? 21 A Monsanto Company., 22 Q What is your job t i t l e ? 23 A Manager o f R esearch. 24 Q As a Manager o f Research whet a r e your 25 d u tie s ? (iiru v - JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER VIC E 1 1 A tfy a rea o f r e s p o n s ib ility is in 2 process re se a rc h , anc I* ^ re sp o n s ib le fo r developing 3 p ro c e s s e s f o r some o f o u r h e rb ic id e and p la n t grow th 4 re g u la to r m a te ria ls and through a group, through a ra th e r 5 la r g e g ro u p . I h ave s e v e r a l group l e a d e r s r e p o r t i n g to me. 6 Q Row many p e o p le do you s u p e r v is e 7 d irectly ? 8 A T ire c tly , six . 9 Q And who do you r e p o r t to ? 10 A R e p o r t t o Mr. R u p e l, 11 Q Anc* w hat i s h i s p o s i t i o n ? 12 A D i r e c t o r o f R e s e a r c h . 13 ( Q I 'd lik e to a sk you a few q u e s tio n s ^ 14 a b o u t y o u r e d u c a t i o n . We a r e g o in g t o go b a c k a w a y s, : 15 so i f y o u ' l l b e a r w i t h u s , p l e a s e . W here d i d you g r a d - 16 u a t e fro m h i g h s c h o o l? 17 A In S t . L o u is a t S o u th w e s t H igh S c h o o l, 18 Q And w h a t y e a r wa^ t h a t ? 19 A 1946. 20 Q W here d id you go t o c o l l e g e ? 21 A A t W a sh in g to n U n i v e r s i t y i n S t . L o u is . 22 Q And w h a t y e a r d id you g r a d u a t e fro m 23 t h e r e ? 24 A I g o t my B .S . in :1 9 5 8 . 25 Q W hat was your D eg ro a i n ? JA M ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER V IC E /s I 1 A Chet: i s t r y . 2 ' .J Q w e s r/t Chem ical E n g in e e rin g , 3 b u t p u re C h e m is tr ,,r* 4 A C hem istry. 5 U Did you do any p o s t- g r a d u a te work? 6 A Y es. 1 a tta in e d a M a ste r's Degree 7 from W ashington U n iv e rsity in 1966. 8 Ai:i what f i e l d was t h a t in ? 9 A * O rganic C hem istry. 10 r. Do you h a v e a n y f u r t h e r g r a d u a t e 11 e d u c a ti o n ? 12 A No. 13 C\ Q I 'd lik e to a sk you a few q u e s tio n s 14 now a b o u t y o u r w ork h i s t o r y . A f t e r g r a d u a t i n g fro m 15 c o l l e g e w h a t was y o u r f i r s t jo b ? 16 A A f t e r g r a d u a t i n g fro m c o l l e g e - - W e ll, 17 I. was w o rk in g f o r M onsanto when I g r a d u a t e d fro m c o l l e g e , 18 a n d I c o n tin u e d w o rk in g f o r M o n san t. a t a R e s e a r c h C h e m is t. 19 :!\ ' 20 Q When d i d you f i r s t s t a r t w i t h M o n san to ? A In 1948. 21 Q And w h a t w as y o u r f i r s t p o s i t i o n ? 22 A l a b o r a t o r y t e c h n i c i a n . 23 Q S o , I g u e s s , i n e s s e n c e , t h e n , y o u 24 vere g o in g t o c o l l e g e a t n i g h t o r so n s u c h t h i n j j ? w 25 A Yes. N JAM ES MAY R E P O R TIN G S ER VIC E i 7 1 Q Then a f t e r you obtained your under- " , 2 graduate D egree, Monsanto promoted you co - - 3 A -- Research Chemist. 4 Q As a Research Chemist i n , I g u ess, 5 what year would th a t be? 6 A 1958. 7 Q What were your d u tie s ? 8 /. My d u tie s were to d evelop p ro ce sse s 9 for various organic chem icals. 10 Q Who was your su p e r v iso r a t th a t time? 11 A In 195? I b e lie v e i t was C o I lls Bryant. 12 Q ' Is th a t C a llts ? 13 A C o l l i s , C - o - l - l - i - s , Bryant. 14 Q In 1958, th en , did you have a resp on - 15 s l b i l i t y fo r working w ith the 2 ,4 ,5 -T p rocess? 16 A No. 17 Q What kind o f p r o c e sse s did you work with? 18 A 1 was working on - r o c e s s e s fo r p h th a lic 19 anhydride a t th a t tim e. 20 Q What p la n t did th ey m anufacture th a t 21 p a r tic u la r chem ical at? 22 A They manufactured i t a t the Queeny 23 P la n t in S t. Louis and a t the E v e r e tt P la n t in Massachu- 24 s e t t s . : 25 Q W ell, a l l th e s e q u e stio n s a r e going JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER V IC E 8 to be ed u c a tio n a l in a way fo r mv. is th is chem ical a member o f the fa m ily o f chem ical;, known as p h en olic h e r b ic id e s? A No. Q As you p rogressed a lo n g in your em ployment a f t e r 1958, wliat were your s u c c e s s iv e p o sitio n s? A I remained a Research Chemist. There is a couple o f grace: o f research ch em ists, and I d o n 't know e x a c t ly when my s a la r y grade changed. My f i r s t s i g n i f i c a n t prom otion to me was 1968, to me, anyway, when I became Group Leacur. Q As a Group Leader what were your d u ties? A B a s ic a lly the same on ly w ith a number o f ch em ists r e p o r tin g to me. Q You'd be doing more management, I suppose? A Yes. Q Would the n ex t star, up from Group Leader, I b e lie v e , be your p resen t p o sitio n ? A Yes. Research Manager. Q - And when were you promoted to Research Manager? A 1978. When d id you f i x t become in v o lved in the 2 ,4 ,5-T process? JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E 1 MF?. 'LOTE ; O bjection to the ferta 2 o f th e q u e stio n . G:* c r^ e t. end a n ^ e r i t . 3 vj . K. uo yo 4 V (By Mr. oka* 5 t h is wav,9 MR. LGVL : The b a s is o f my o b je c tio n 7 i s you have asked him a v ery broad q u estion 8 i?nc* i t assu ties he was a t one time in volved 9 in tha p ro cess. "Process" is a term o f 10 a r t to th ese p eo p le, not n e c e s s a r ily to you 11 or me. 12 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) You're fa m ilia r 13 w ith the N itr o , West V ir g in ia , P lan t o f the Monsanto 14 Company? 15 A Y es. l Q And you are awe r e , are you n o t, th a t 17 a t th a t p la n t Monsanto manufacturer, a h e r b ic id e known 18 as 2 ,4 ,5 -T ? 19 A Did m anufacture. 20 MR.. LOVE; O b jection to the form o f 21 the q u e s tio n . 22 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) A t one time Monsanto 23 manufactured 2 ,4 ,5 - T in N itro? . 24 k 25 A Yes. t Q Did you ever have o c c a s io n 'io d o any JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER V IC E 1 work regarding the m anufacturing process for 2 ,4 ,5 -T 2 during the years th a t I t was made a t N itro? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And would you p le a se t e l l us when 5 you f i r s t had o c c a sio n to become in v o lv ed in your work with the 2,4 ,5 -T process a t N itro, 7 A O.K. A gain , I assume by2 ,4 ,5 -T 8 process you in clu d e the interm ediates lead in g to 2 ,4 ,5 -T . 9 Q Yes, s ir . 10 A Because myf i r s t Involvem ent was 11 w ith one o f th o se in term ed ia tes ra th er than w ith the 12 f in is h e d orod u ct. 13 Q Would th a t in term ed ia te be t r ic h loro 14 phenol? 15 A Yes. 16 Q *!hen did you f i r s t become Involved 17 w ith th e in term ed ia te tr ic h lo r o p h e n o l process? 18 A I b e lie v e i t was *60. Could have been 19 '6 1 , b ut I th in k i t was 16C. 20 Q How d id you f i r s t become in volved in 21 th a t p ro cess? 22 A I was a s s ig n e d a small p r o je c t to try 23 to determ ine b e t te r ways to make tr lc h lo r o p h e n o l, more 24 econom ical r o u te s . 25 Q Was t h is job assig n m en t, th en , o rien ted JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E 1 towards the economic problem o f production rath er than 2 s a fe ty problem? f 3 A Yes. 4 Q What were the economic problems o f 5 producing trich lorop h en ol in 1960 or 19617 MR. LOVE; O b jection to the form o f 7 the q u estion . I f you can answer i t , go 8 ahead. 9 A The same a s any m anufacture. T h ere's 10 alw ays the d e s ir e to improve the c o s t o f your product. H Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Have you ever heard 12 o f the term "dioxin"? 13 A Y es. 14 Q W hat d o e s th a t term mean to you? 15 A D ioxin i s , noc consnon u sea g e, i s a l fa m ily o f c h lo r in a ted dibenzo d io x in s. 17 Q And you 're fa m ilia r a l s o , I assume 18 w ith 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 tetra ch lo r o d ib en zo -p a ra -d io x in ? 19 A Yes. 20 Q When did you f i r s t become a w a re o f 21 th e e x is te n c e o f th a t p a r tic u la r chem ical? 22 A X d o n 't know the e x a c t y ea r th a t th a t 23 occurred. I t was some time in the e a r ly ' 6 0 ' s Is a l l I 24 can say. v 25 - ' ! . * Q You happen to r e c a l l th e cufeum stances JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E 1 under which you f i r s t became fa m ilia r w ith th a t chem ical? 2 A No. 3 Q You do n o t r e c a l l w hether i t was in 4 the course o f your employment or in c a s u a l reading o f 5 some p r o fe s s io n a l lit e r a t u r e or in r e la t io n w ith a work 6 assignm ent? You j u s t sim ply do not r e c a ll ? 7 A I t was in co n n ectio n w ith inform ation 8 th a t I read in doing my Job. r d o n 't r e c a l l whether i t 9 was som ething th a t was c ir c u la t e d to me or what i t was. 10 Q You d o n 't r e c a ll w hether i t was a 11 p r o fe s s io n a l Journal or an in -h o u se memo or som ething 12 o f th a t nature? 13 A No, I r e a l l y d o n 't . I t was not a U sig n ific a n t occurrence a t the tim e. 15 Q I'd lik e to hand you what has been 16 marked fo r id e n t if ic a t io n purposes a s P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it 17 #344 (Monsanto #8314593 through # 8 3 1 4 6 0 0 ), which c o n s is t s 18 o f s e v e r a l handw ritten p a g es. I t appears th a t your name 19 may be w r itte n a cr o ss th e top . I t ' s N itr o m icro film docu 20 ment #8314593, I 'd lik e you to take a minute to review 21 t h a t , p le a s e . I note fo r the record I'm ten d erin g a 22 copy to Mr. Love fo r h is ex a m in a tio n . 23 Have you had an o p p o r tu n ity to review 24 th a t document? 25 A Yes. *. Ji U * *' '*4 -- c - r :' . : Cm -.-.* ... v ; , 41 JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER V IC E 1 Q Do you reco g n ize the handw riting? 2 A Yes. : 3 And how would you r e c o g n iz e th e band 4 w riting? 5 A i t ' s my h an d w ritin g. Q And d id you then prepare t h i s document? 7 A Yes. 8 Q You happen to r e c a l l what time you 9 prepared t h is document? 10 A No. A lthough, i t ' s dated February 11 to A ugust, *65, so i t was some time a f t e r August o f '6 5 . 12 Q I n o tic e a t th e top o f th e f i r s t page 13 o f t h is document rea d s, ''P rogress R eport, Job No. 9 .2 3 . U 14 76001-2102," Is th a t p art o f your M onsanto's numbering 15 system ? 16 A Yes. T h at's the code o f a c c o u n ts, r\7r 'vv * 18 19 job number. Hie 2102, the la s t fo u r d i g i t s , r e fe r s to 2,4,5-T . Q Is th is document in e f f e c t a rough 20 draft? 21 A Yes. 22 Q I f one wanted - 23 A I would say i t ' s $.;-p w lim in a ry :<!raft, 24 Incom pleta d r a ft. 25 Q I f one wanted t o Ifl^t^-fcha -fS 'l JAM ES MAY R E P O R TIN G S ER V IC E 1 1 d r a f t , would I t be f i l e d u n d er t h a t sa ce number th a t 2 a p p ea rs a s th e jo b number? 3 A, No. T h is r e p o r t w as n e v e r i s s u e d . 4 Q Did you e v e r make a f i n a l d r a f t o f 5 th is report? 6 A No. 7 Q Did you e v e r do a n y th in g f u r t h e r , 8 did i t ev er ap p ear in any o th e r form o th e r than th e one 9 w hich is b e fo re you? 10 A N o t t o my k n o w le d g e , n o . 11 Q And d i d t h i s a p p e a r t o be a c o m p le te , 12 f u l l a n d a c c u r a t e c o p y o f t h e d r a f t t h a t you p r e p a r e d ? 13 A I d o n 11 b e l i e v e s o b e c a u s e I t h i n k U t h e r e w ere some ta b le s an d d r a f t s in th e o r i g i n a l w hich 15 I d o n 't s e e h e r e . 16 Q A s i d e , t h e n , fro m t h e t a b l e s a n d 17 d r a f t s w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e t e x t u a l m a t e r i a l , i s i t a 18 t r u e , f u l l a n d a c c u r a t e c o p y o f t h e d o c u m e n t y o u p r e p a r e d ? 19 A W e ll, I c a n ' t s a y w i t h c e r t a i n t y . 20 Q To t h e b e s t o f y o u r r e c o l l e c t i o n . 21 A Y eah. A l t h o u g h , t h i s w as *65. I 22 d o n 't rem em ber i f e v e r y p a g e i s h e r e o r n o t . T h e r e 's no 23 way f o r ms t o know t h a t . *, .y ^ :r r\ *b\ -v. 24 *:v ; ,. Q I 'd l i k e y o u , ifvjjrow w o u ld , ta^Jtftad 25 I n t o t h e r e c o r d t h e s e g m e n t o f t h e f t e a t p a g e w h ic h b e g in s JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER V IC E y 1 a d ja c e n t from the word "Problem .1 2 A Do you want toe to read s t a r t in g with 3 "Problem "? 4 Q Yes, s ir . 5 A "To reduce co n ce n tra tio n o f the ch lo r a cn eg en ic 2 ,3 ,7 ,8 - te tr a c h lo r o d lb e n x o -d io x in (TDD) 7 in our 2 , 4 , 5 -T and to improve the c o lo r o f th e product." 8 Q You can stop th e r e . I 'd lik e to 9 a s k y m , f i r s t o f a l l , who brought t h is problem to your 10 a t t e n t io n ? i n A I b e lie v e i t was my su p e rv iso r a t 12 13 14 15 16 17 1 ; the tim e. Q And vho would th a t be? A John Stephens. Q And do you r e c a l l how he brought th a t matter to your atten tio n ? A No. Q Do you r e c a l l i f he prepared any 19 w r itte n memorandum d ir e c t in g you to in v e s t ig a t e th is 20 problem? 21 A No, but th a t was n ot a normal th in g 22 to do a t th e tim e, s t i l l i s n ' t . 23 Q In the cou rse o f d ir e c t in g you to 24 I n v e s tig a te t h is problem did he d e a e r lte f o r th e hfcilorac- 25 Regen 2 ,3 ,7 ,8 - t e tr& chloro d ib en zo -p arted to x in ? JA M E S MAY R E P O R TIN G SER V IC E 1 A Ko. /2 Q Did he r e fe r you to any lite r a tu r e 3 to acquaint you w ith th is process? 4 A No. 5 Q In the course o f in v e stig a tin g th is 6 problem did you undertake to acquaint y o u r se lf w ith any 7 lite r a tu r e regarding the chloracnegenic 2 ,3 ,7 ,8 -te tr a - 8 chlorodlbenzo-para-dioxin? 9 MR. LOVE; 1*111 going to o b je c t to 10 th e form o f the q u e stio n on the sim ple 11 b a s is you haven* t e l i c i t e d from t h is w it - 12 n e ss a n y th in g th a t .su g g ests a t t h is 13 ju n ctu re th a t he was aware th ere was any u ch loracn egen ic problem and is not suggested 15 by the problem s ta te d in th e document. 16 MR. SKAGGS: You*re going to l e t 17 him answ er, a r e n 't you? 18 MR. LOVE: Sure. 19 A Would you repeat th e q u e stio n , p le a s e . 20 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) W ell, what 1 want 21 to know i s did you undertake in the course o f preparing 22 t h is rep o rt to in v e s t ig a t e the lit e r a t u r e w ith isg a rd 23 to 2 ,3 ,7 ,8 -te tr a c h lo r o d ib e n z o -p a r a * d io x in ? . v&y-: 24 A No, I d o n 't b a liM * l 25 2 , 3 ,7 ,8 - t e t r a c h lo r o d ib en zo -p a ra -d io x in a t t h e t i n i l T JA M E S MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E 1 K 1 1 Q I b e lie v e we were ta lk in g about 2 whether you undertook to in v e stig a te the lite r a tu r e 3 w ith regard to TDD, and I b e lie v e your answer was you 4 did n ot, is th a t right? 5 A That' s c o r r e c t, because X w asn't aware 6 o f th a t s p e c i f i c compound a t the tim e. 7 Q So your testiiooiiy. now w i l l be th a t 8 the f i r s t tim e.you became aware o f TDD was when your 9 su p e rv iso r a ssig n ed you t h is ta sk in 1965? 10 A No. I w a sn 't aware o f -- W ell, I 11 may have been aware th a t i t e x i s t e d , but I w a sn 't in 12 any way sure th a t i t was p resen t in our product in 13 February o f '6 5 ; however, I was reason ab ly sure by the . 'i**.*; - tim e I w rote t h is document and some time a f t e r August & o f '65 or during the course o f th is work 1 became aware. .. ' i * J-i: ; ...T' 'SJ-W- Q I'd lik e to ask you a q m stio n about *;* ('Ay- v **v> t h i s problem regard in g the c o lo r o f th e p rod uct. What 18 was th e problem w ith the c o lo r o f the product? 19 A I t was dark, 20 Q Why was th a t a problem? 21 A Because some o f our customers o b je cted 22 to the dark c o lo r . 23 * Q Is th a t an e s t h e t ic problem 6?, Is 24 th e r e s lg n ig le a n t problem w ith th e 25 product? JA M E S MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E  1 A W ell, my underrtsr.ding in tha t i t 's 2 both an e s t h e t ic problem and the dark c o lo r s seem to 3 lead to s o lid s p r e c ip ita tio n from the product ca u sin g 4 pluggage in a p p lic a tio n equipment and th a t s o r t o f th in g . 5 Q Just so I understand, a darker product 6 which would come in the form o f a powder, i s th a t r ig h t? 7 A W ell, again , X w asn't aware o f a l l 8 the customer complaint correspondence and so fo rth , but 9 my understanding o f th is problem was th a t i t ca r rie d 10 through- to th e f i n a l e s te r e d products and the c o lo r 11 ca r rie d through and caused some problem w ith s o lid s 12 d e p o sitio n from the product when i t was b ein g a p p lie d . 13 Q Was the problem o f c o lo r r e la te d to 14 th e presence o f XDL`7 15 o < 16 Q id you ever fin d any ev id en ce th a t 17 th e c o lo r problem was a t a l l r e la te d tc the p resen ce o f 18 TDD? 19 MR. LOVE; Let me o b je c t ag^ in to 20 the form o f your q u e stio n . I assume th a t 21 you*re ta lk in g about the time p eriod Febru- 22 a ry to August o f 1965, but when ycuuse a 23 word lik e "ever," i t ' s a - " lit t le broader 24 -- ye*.*--: . than th a t. I would like^jjor you to d S el 25 to the e x te n t you can w ith s p e c i f i c tim e JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E S '. 1! r , 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 f \ 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 p e r io d s, an-' th* br.sis o f ray oh- jectIon. Q (By Mr. Skaggs) When you were per- forming th is study from February to August o f 1965, did you fin d any evidence th a t there was a c o r r e la tio n between a darker c o lo r product and th e p resen ce o f TDD? A Oh, y e s . I guess th ere was no c o r - r e la t io n . Thorn was co n n ectio n in th a t the co lo red m a teria l as all as the TDD a re r e l a t i v e l y h ig h b o ilin g m a teria ls, and so they would be removed togeth er in a d is t illa t io n process, so in th at sens there is a cor- relation . O So, th en , would i t be a ?. i r stsceraent th a t I f i t ' s a lig h t e r c o lo r e d product, th ere would be a lower degree o f TDD because both th o se q u a li t ie s appear under the same or s im ila r menu fisc tu rin g co n d itio n s? A No. There*s no co n n ectio n between the c a u se s, th a t I know o f , between the ca u ses o f TDD and co lo rin g . Q Did you a t any la t e r date fin d th at co r re la tio n between the c o lo r o f the product and the presence o f TDD? A W ell, yeah , maybe t h a t more d r a s t ic co n d itio n s led to more c o lo red p ro d u c ts. X don't r e c a l l making th a t co n scio u s judgm ent, but it * s n o t u n r e a lis t ic . JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER V IC E K 20 1 Q W ell, what is the b asis o f that 2 statem ent, that i t isn 't unrealistic? 3 A W ell, I guess tr.e darker co lo red 4 m aterials are the re su lt of a le ss se le c tiv e reaction, 5 maybe more d r a s t ic r e a c tio n c o n d itio n s , and the same is tru e o f TDD. 7 Q I'd lik e you now, s i r , to p lea se 8 read the remainder o f that f ir s t page which begins 9 fo llo w in g th e word "Summary11 th a t appears in the l e f t 10 hand margin o f the f i r s t page o f E x h ib it 344. 11 A "A procedure has bean developed fo r 12 the p rep a ra tio n , sto ra g e and use o f d i s t i l l e d t r ic h lo r o 13 phenol to g iv e 2 ,4 ,5 - T a su p erior q u a lif y . The procedure 14 r e p r e se n ts th e most e f f e c t i v e means o f removing both 15 c o lo r and TDD." 16 Q Who developed th a tprocedure? 17 A I d id . 18 Q Were jou working anyone e l s e in 19 th e developm ent o f th a t procedure? 20 A I th in k th ere was a te c h n ic ia n working 21 w ith me a t the tim e doing a n a ly t ic a l work. 22 Q And do you happen to remember h is name? 23 A Jim Sim s. 24 Q I 'd lik e fo r you, i f you would* p le a s e , 25 to turn to the n e x t page, which i s N ltr o m icro film JA M E S MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E 2 #8314594, and I'd lik e fo r you to read that page in to the record. A 1The r e s u lt s o f the a n a ly s is o f va rio u s p ro cess streams fo r TDD - in p a r tic u la r , th e recent a n a ly sis o f interm ediate autoclave samples have su g g ested th a t TDD form ation might be minimized or elim in ated by a m odification o f the process a t the a u to c la v e s te p . A program is being I n it ia te d to study the e f f e c t s o f s e v e r a l v a r ia b le s on th e form ation o f TDD, tr ic h lo r o p h e n o l (TCP) and tr ic h lo r o a n is o le (TCA).U Q F ir s t o f a l l , you make a r e fe r e n c e in th ere to p rocess stream s. What were those p rocess streams? A They were samples o f th e sodium t r i chlorophen&te so lu tio n . CJ Were th e se taken from s p e c i f i c manufacturing processes? A Yes. Q And what p la n ts were those taken from? A Just the N itro Plant. Q Who was r e sp o n sib le fo r takin g the samples? A I d o n 't r e c a l l . Someone a t th e p la n t. Q How many samples ^ e re taken? IA I'm not su re. I t& in k a b o u tth r e a . JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SERVICE 22 1 Q And what time period would these 2 have been taken? 3 A A gain , I d on 't remember which month. 4 Some time between February and August, ' 65 . Over a 5 sh ort span o f tim e. During that p erio d , a day or two, Q And were th ese sam ples taken from the 7 trichlorophenol process? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Are you acquainted w ith the 1549 10 e x p lo sio n a t the N itro P lan t o f Monsanto? n A I'm aware o f i t , y e s. 12 Q Were these samples taken from the 13 same process th a t exploded in 1949? 14 MK, L0V: O bject to the form o f 15 the q u estio n on the b a sis th a t i t ' s e x 16 c e e d in g ly vague. I f you want to i s o l a t e 17 to the e x te n t o f t h is w it n e s s 's knowledge 18 where th ese samples carrc from th a t a re d i s 19 cu ssed in t h is p a r tic u la r document narked 20 fo r id e n t i f ic a t i o n as #344, I d o n 't have 21 any d i f f i c u l t y w ith t h a t , and i f you want 22 to then ask him i f he knows som ething 23 w ith r e la tio n to the 1949 In c id e n t, I have 24 no trou b le w ith th a t , b u t I th in k y o u r 25 q u estio n as phrased is o b je c tio n a b le. JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E 1 Q (By Mr, Skaggs) W all, I f you want 2 to answer the q u e stio n , we' l l go on from th e r e . 3 A would yon plea on rep ea t the q u e stio n . 4 ' Q Let me go about i t t h is way, you*re 5 aware in 1549 the a u to c la v e which was in v o lv ed in th e 6 manufacture o f trichlorophenol a t N ltro exploded? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And i t was th e sane tr ic h lo r o p h e n o l 9 p rocess th a t you took th e se samples from? In o th er 10 words, the chem ical ste p in the m anufacturing p rocess U o f 2 , 4 , 5 -T p rocess was the same? 12 MR, L--7L; I o b je c t once a g a in to 13 the form o f the q u e s tio n . I f you can 14 answer i r , answer i t . 15 A Yeah, the ste p in the p rocess was the 16 same. There may have been some changes a s to the way 17 th a t 3ep was performed between '49 and '6 5 . 18 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Th a t ab out t h is pro 19 gram th a t was i n i t i a t e d , who Was r e s p o n s ib le fo r i n i t i a t 20 in g th a t program? 21 MR. LOVE; Which program a r e you 22 ta lk in g about? 23 MR. SKAGGS: I'm r o fa r r in g to tha; 24 program d escrib ed In t h o l a s t t e n t e n ^ 3 25 page 2 . JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E 2i 1 A Ag R e se a rc h i g e n e n t . 2 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) What i s Ag Research 3 Mana ge merit? 4 A My s u p e r io r s . I d o n 't know e x a c tly 5 who makes th e f i n a l d e c is io n on what programs are in it ia t e d and when. C e r ta in ly was not a t th a t p o in t In tim e, 7 Q And you were n ot r e s p o n s ib le , th en , 8 fo r the program th a t's d escrib ed in th a t la s t sen ten ce, 9 is that right; 10 MR. LOVE: O bject to the form o f 11 your q u e stio n . A g a ir, nov a r e you ta lk in g 12 about the developm ent o f th e program or 13 im plem entation o f the program? X d o n 't 14 know what you be ta lk in g ab out. 15 Q (By Mr. Skaggs), Do you understand 16 the q u estion ? 17 A No, n ot e n t i r e l y . I was n ot respon 18 s i b l e fo r -- When the program was i n i t i a t e d , I did pursue 19 th e program, yeah, i f t h a t 's what y o u 're a sk in g . I'm 20 not su re. 21 Q What were your d u tie s w ith regard 22 to th a t program? 23 A My d u tie s were to f in d c o n d itio n s 24 fo r th e a u to c la v e s te p which would m inim ize o r e lim in a te 25 th e form ation o f TDD, as we c a lle d I t th en . JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E 1 Q In th a course o f doing th a t, chan, 2 you, o f c o u r se , had to fa m ilia r ic e y o u r s e lf w ith the 3 manufacturing process in place s t chat tim e, is that 4 right? 5 A Yes. Q who was your immediate su p e r io r In 7 th e work th a t you d id on t h is program? 8 A I b f.lie v e a t th a t tim e i t was D exter 9 Sharp. There was a t r a n s it io n between John Stephens 10 and D exter Sharp some tim e around th a t p erio d . I 11 don' t r e c a l l what year thac occu rred . In my ca se 12 John steohere was e ith e r -y immediate su p e r io r or second 13 l e v e l . 14 Q And whet would h is p o s it io n have been? 15 A tfenager o f R esearch. 16 Q And who would he have rep o rted to? 17 A John S p e s i a l i (p h o n e tic ). 18 Q And who was he? 19 A D ir e c to r o f R esearch. 20 Q What were th e s e v e r a l v a r ia b le s th a t 21 y.ou stu d ie d in the cou rse o f t h is program? 22 A Hie v a r ia b le s o f tim e, tem perature, 23 th e r a t io o f s e v e r a l r e a c ta n ts . 24 "3y:Q Were th ere any o th e r v a r ia b le s - t h a t 25 you stu d ied ? f * ' ` 1 ** ' . * ,T: ;# * ` * . \* T * . * JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 U 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A W ell, th e re is an a d d itio n tim e and th e re is a hold p e rio d . Those were stu d ie d as se p a ra te v a ria b le s. Q What is tr ic h lo r o a n is o le V A T ric h lo ro a n iso le is a raethoxytrichloro- benzene. Q Is i t a su b stan ce w hich throw s o ff 2 ,3 ,7 ,3 - t e t r a c h l o r o d i b e n z o - p a r a - d i o x l n o r a t some p o in t in th e c o u rse o f i t s m an u factu re co u ld be c o n tam in ated w ith 2 ,3 ,/ ,tf-tetrach lo ro d ib en zo -p ara-d io x in ? A I d o n 't b e lie v e so . I t 's on th e o th e r end o f th e sp ectru m . In o th e r w ords, i t ' s an in te r m e d ia te on th e way to tr ic h lo r o p h e n o l. Som ething th a t you have to r e a c t i t to to g et to tric h lo ro p h e n o l. Q O.K. What e v e r happened to t h i s p ro gram ? A I t was co m p leted . Q What w ere th e r e s u l t s o f th e com ple- t i o n ? Did you p r e p a r e a w r i t t e n r e p o r t o r make a n r e p o r t, o r w hat? A Yes. Q A Q o ra l report? O.K. W hich was i t ? B o th . * -***-. ^ And t o whom did y p u address t h is JA M ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER V IC E 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A I d on 't r e c a l l . I think th ere was an in te r n a l r e p o r t, a group m eeting type r e p o r t. There was a rep ort made to m anufacturing people a t N itro I know a t one p oin t and then there was a f in a l rep o rt w ritten. Q So are you saying there were three d iffe r e n t documents? A No. J u st one document. 0 But i t went to th ree d if f e r e n t groups of people? A W ell, i t went to more than that;. It was a f a i r l v w id ely d is tr ib u te d document. I t was a f i n a l r e p o r t. They g et a standard f a i r l y wide d is t r ib u t io n . Q I'd lik e to d ir e c t your a tte n tio n to page 3 o f th is document, which is Agent Orange #8314595. You r e fe r to e sample o f , I b e lie v e i t ' s sodium t r ic h lo ro p h en ol, is that, co rrect? A Sample o f p la n t sodium tr ic h lo r o p h e n a te , yeah. Q Is that a tfitro sample? A Yes. Q I n o tic e then on the top o f the n ext page there i s what appears in p a ren th e sis the number BA312, 2 /2 1 /6 4 in p a r e n th e sis. Is th a t an u m b erin g system c0 for samples? rf-oV-*.- ;-`r JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E i 2 1 A That's 312. Yes. That's K itro 's 2 batch 312, and the oth er numbers, o f c o u rse, a r e the d ate. 3 Q Is th at a standardized numbering system 4 u t i l i z e d by Monsanto? 5 A I think i t ' s ju s t a N itro numbering system , not a companywide one, 7 Q What w ere your recommendations a f t e r 8 the com pletion of th is rep o rt? 9 A My recommendations were th a t t h is 10 p ro cess could produce very high q u a lity 2 , 4 ,5 - t r i c h l o r o 11 phenol but i t did not seem to be a very d e s ir a b le p rocess 12 to operate because i t would, It d o e sn 't address the 13 problem o f e lim in a tin g the form ation o f TDD and in 14 f a c t i t co n cen tra tes the TDD in a much more con cen trated 15 form which would p resen t many more o p p o r tu n itie s fo r l ex p o su re, 17 Q I want to make sure I understand what 18 y o u 'r e sa y in g , and i f my summary is wrong, c o r r e c t me. 19 Are you sa y in g th a t you came up with a p ro cess which 20 would cure th is co lo r problem but would not so lv e the 21 problem o f the TDD? 22 A I t would remove the TDD from the 23 product but i t would not e lim in a te the form ation o f the 24 TDD in the u ltim a te h and lin g o f i t . ' 25 Q Y o u 're g o in g t o have to c l a r i f y th a t JA M E S MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E 1 fo r me, p le a s e . I d o n 't understand why it1 wcuid remove I 2 i t from the product - - I t sounds to me lik e you' re spy 3 ing i t would remove i t from the product but i t would 4 s t i l l be th e re. 5 A I t didn' t change the co n d itio n s of 6 manufacture a t a l l . We s t i l l made TDD. A ll we did 7 was to take the mixture o f product and im p u r itie s , 8 co lo r b o d ie s, TDD, e t c e te r a and sep a ra te ou t the rea so n 9 ab ly pure trich lorop h en ol from those colored m aterial:; 10 and TDD by d i s t i l l a t i o n . Now th a t l e f t tii ose m a te r ia ls 11 in the d i s t i l l a t i o n resid u e so they are s t i l l th ere and 12 s t i l l have to be handled and d isp osed o f some way, 13 Q But as fa r as the f in a l product g o e s, 14 i t would e lim in a te TDD from the end product? 15 A T hat's r i g h t . 16 IT.. L^V-T. O b jection to the for& o f 17 the q u e stio n . 18 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Do you know who 19 u ltim a te ly passed upon the d e s ir a b ilit y * o f t h is p ro cess? 20 A No. 21 Q Was i t your recommendation, your 22 p erso n a l recommendation, th at your proposed p ro cess n ot 23 be implemented? 24 A I t was my b e l i e f . -^ P es, `i t was xny 25 recommendation. ' JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E 1 Q Did you make a recommendation one 2 way or the oth er as to whether t h is p rocess should be ^- 3 elim inated? 4 A You j u s t asked me t h a t . 5 Q I thought I heard you say - it was 6 your b e lie f but you d id n 't say one way or the o th er. 7 A I don1t s p e c if ic a lly r e c a ll sa y in g , 8 I recommend we d o n 't do t h i s , but I b e lie v e we d id . 9 Q I 'c lik e to hand you now what has 10 been marked fo r i d e n t i f i c a t i o n purposes as P l a i n t i f f s ' 11 E x h ib it #345 (Monsanto #8319226, e t a ' . ) . I'd lik e to 12 hand you P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #345. I'd lik e you to 13 take a moment to review t h is handw ritten document, 14 which the top page Is N Itro m icro film #8319226, and I 15 would note th a t I'm ten d erin g a copy to Mr. Love fo r 1 h is review . 17 Do you re co g n ize th a t page, s ir ? 18 A No, I d o n 't. 19 Q Do you know the name - - I t ' s very 20 d i f f i c u l t to read a t the bottom . It appears to be B al- 21 d erson . Is th a t name f a m ilia r to you? 22 A Y es. 23 Q Do you agree th a tappears to be the 24 name a t the bottom o f the page? 25 JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E 3 1 CJ Who Is he? 2 A He1s -- 3 MR. UOVE: Are you a sk in g about today, 4 his position? 5 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Wouldyou id e n t if y him, p le a se . 7 A H e's an employee, o f Monsanto a t the 8 Nitro Plant lab oratories. 9 Q Has he alw aysbeenemployed there? 10 W ell, in the course o f time th a t you have known him 11 a t Monsanto has he been employed a t the N itro P lant? 12 A Y es. 13 Q And what a re hia d u t ie s , a re you 14 fa m ilia r w ith them? 15 A Now, I r e a l l y d o n 't know what h is l d u tie s a r e . 17 Q Do you r e c o g n iz e t h is page as being 18 out o f some kind o f a lab book o f some kind? 19 A No, I'm n ot fa m ilia r w ith t h a t . 20 Q Are you fa m ilia r w ith the record 21 keeping procedures a t the la b o ra to ry a t the N itr o P lant? 22 A N o. 23 Q I'd lik e to d ir e c t y o u r .a tte n tio n to ... * ** 24 t 1` ' what appears to be page 77 o f th is Gjtcerpt, and i t ' s 25 - y-r.v-' {. document #8315343, and I would d ir e c t your a tte n tio n to JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E 1 the i n i t i a l s a t the bottom o f the page and ask you i f 2 you recognize th ose. 3 A No, I d on 't. 4 Q Are you fa m ilia r w ith the t e s t in g 5 program a t the N itro Plant? A No, I'm n ot. 7 Q You have anyknowledgewhether the 8 N itro P lant on a regular b a sis te ste d fo r 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 -te tr a 9 ch lo ro d ib en zo -d io x lr. a t any time from 1949 to 1969? 10 A Yes. I was to ld they were doing 11 so and in f a c t su p p lie d in fo r m a tio n . for them to do th a t, 12 Q What period o f time did they t e s t for 13 d io x in ? 14 A I d o n 't know. I t was to begin some 15 tim e in 1966, and I d o n 't know how long i t con tinu ed . 16 Q But you authored a procedure fo r them 17 t o fo llo w in t e s t i n g fo r d io x in , i s th a t co rrect? 18 A I b e lie v e Jim Sims probably authored j 19 the procedure. I may have appeared a s the co -a u th o r. i 20 Q When you say you su p p lied them w ith , 21 did you pass i t on to them or e x p la in i t to them, or what? i 22 A We passed i t on to them and d iscu ssed 23 i t w ith. them. 24 V- ! Q Did you t r a v e l to N itr o In a a d stln g them 25 in im plem enting t h is t e s t in g program? JA M E S M AY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E 1 A No, s i r , I die" n o t. 2 Q At le a s t th is te s tin g in volves the 3 use of a gas chromatograph, is that correct? 4 A Yea. 5 Q 1 assume N itre had gas chromatographic c a p a b ilit y when th ey in it ia t e d th is program, is th a t 7 correct? 8 A Yes. I d o n 't r e c a ll i f they had to 9 purchase i t for the purpose o f th is program or whether 10 they a lr e a d y had i t . I d o n 't know the answer to t h a t. 11 Q Do you know when they f i r s t acquired 12 e gas chromatograph? 13 A No, 1 don1t . 14 Q A fte r you su p p lied them w ith the pro 15 cedure to t e s t fo r d io x in , d id you have any r e sp o n si 16 b i l i t y to con tin u e to monitor th a t testin g-p rogram ? 17 A No. 18 Q Would you d escrib e t h is procedure fo r us 19 A Not in any d e t a i l . I wasn ot the 20 a n a l y t i c a l chem ist a c t u a lly doing the work. A l l I know 21 i s i t was a gas chromatographic procedure. I r e a lly 22 c a n 't t e l l you what the d e t a ils o f the procedure w ere. 23 Q Was t h is p roced u re-o rien ted s t r i c t l y 24 towards ta k in g a sam ple, running i t through the macKine, 25 producing a r e s u l t , or did i t in clu d e *. p r o to co l''fo r a JA M ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E  t e s t in g program? 2 A I d on 't understand, t e s tin g program. 3 I d o n 't understand what you mean by t h a t . 4 Q F in e. VJhat I want to know i s did 5 your procedure merely a d v ise & chem ist how to t e s t for 6 d io x in or did i t include a program fo r r o u tin e ly sam pling 7 v a rio u s part" o f the 2 ,4 ,5 -T m anufacturing p ro cess and 8 so forth? 9 A The a n a ly t ic a l method was s p e c i f i c a l l y 10 fo r the f i n a l product 2 ,4 ,5 -T and i t was j u s t a cookbook 11 d e s c r ip tio n o f how to a n a ly z e , how to prepare the sample 12 fo r a n a ly s is and how to a n a ly ze and c a lc u la t e the r e s u l t . 13 Q Did you l i s t any recommendation for 14 a pariod o f time a sample should be taken? For exam ple, 15 d id you say a sample should be taken every fo u rth batch l or ev ery ten th batch or som ething a lo n g th o se lin e s ? 17, A I d o n 't r e c a l l . There may have been 18 d is c u s s io n a lo n g th ose l i n e s , but th a t esca p es my memory. 19 Q Do you know i f the N itr o t e s t i n g 20 program was based on any kind o f p r o to c o l lik e t h a t or 21 was i t c a tc h -a s -c a tc h -c a n ? 22 A I'm sure there was a p r o to c o l, but 23 I d o n 't know th a t I ever was awere o f the d e t a i l s o f the 24 p r o to c o l. 25 Q Is i t a Monsanto p o lic y to' havo a JAM ES MAY R E P O R TIN G S ER VIC E J1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 p rotocol such as th a t in i t s chem ical o en a fsc tu r in g p lants? A Yes. There are s p e c if ic a t io n s , there a re s p e c ific a t io n methods to be fo llo w e d , and the s p e c i f i - cation includes the frequency with which a sample is taken and ervalyzec. Some are taken every b a tc h , some a r e taken a t in te r v a ls anc some are taken o n ly u p o n r e q u e s t . Q A re you f a m i l i a r w i t h t h a t k in d o f a p o lic y a t an y Monsanto p la n t t h a t w u ld m a n u fa c tu re phenoxy h e r b ic id e s , ,*. p a r tic u la r , 2,4,5-T V A Am I fa m ilia r w ith th a t p ro to col? M?v. IDVS: I was goin g to o b je c t to the form o f the q u estion both to t h is one and to the preceding one on the b a s is o f a time s it u a t io n . I f you can be more s p e c i f i c . There may be p o l i c i e s in e f f e c t today th a t were- not in e f f e c t 25 years ago. Now, I think you lim ite d your l a s t q u estio n to the 2 ,4 ,5 -T which d eals w ith a time period, so th a t's the reason I did not o b ject to th is . Q (By Mr. Skaggs) W e'll take I t t h is way. How about 1949? A Were th e r e p r o to c o ls ? Q Yes, s i r . . " /r V v :. :r.;. . ;, j.TfV.i-':. - A I d on 't know. JAMES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E , S' 31 1 Q Do you have y p o lic y a t any tin e 2 a t any Monsanto p lan t regarding the talcing o f sampler 3 for the use o f analyzing fo r dioxin? 4 A 1 d o n 't r e c a ll th a t I ever was in 5 volved or aware o f what those p r o to c o ls were. 6 Q I'd lik e to hand you what has been 7 marked fo r id e n t if ic a t io n purposes a s P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it 8 346, which i f NAtro m icrofilm #8321506 and #83215C 7. 9 I ' d lik e you to take ?. moment to review th a t and I would 10 note I'm ten derin g a copy to Mr. Love, 11 Do y 12 A Yes . 13 Q And 14 document? 15 A Yes. l Q And 17 f u l l and accu rate copy o f the dooment th a t you authored? 18 A Y es, as far a s I can t e l l . 19 Q 1 I n o tic e th a t i t ' s dated January 29 , 20 1971, and i t regards 2 ,4 ,5 - T . I'm a l i t t l e confused 21 about i t . Does t h is in v o lv e d io x in in an ongoing nanu- 22 fa c tu r in g p rocess or d io x in in an in v en to r y 2 ,4 ,5 - T 23 th a t had e a r lie r been manufactured? . * * . .... 24 A An in v en to ry th a t;h a d been manufactured 25 e a r l i e r . "- ' v" .. JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E 1 0 There wg9 the Inventory t h r t 's Here 2 manufacture3? 3 A I ' m not c e r t a in . I t was a t the 4 Krurrenrich P la n t and I b el lev? i t was probably -- the 5 la s t s t e p , the es t e r 1f lea t i on s te p va s done a t KrunLir ich . Q Could any o f th is Inventory have 7 Included NItro product? ! j i 8 T o l l , i t in clu d ed the m a teria l from 9 w,hich, th, e .e ste r was carde was produced a t I -itr o , t*\jIli i s , 10 th e 2 , 4 , 5-T a c id . i i 11 Q So the 2 , 4 , 5-T a c id was made a t " i t r o , 12 was shipped o f f to Krumrerich fo r the fu r th er p r o c e ssin g , 13 i s th a t rig h t? 14 T h at's r ig h t , \ Ii 15 Q Arid the in ven tory th a t we arc* d e a lin g l w ith here is the end r e s u lt o f th a t long p rocess? 17 A T h at's r ig h t , 18 Q I'd lik e you to rea d , i f you would, i! 19 the sen ten ce a t the bottom o f the second paragraph ! i 20 under the d e t a il s e c t io n . In oth er words, th ere i s ' a 21 sen ten ce and the n ex t paragraph is what I'm r e fe r r in g i 22 t o , and I 'd l ik e you to s t a r t the sen ten ce th a t s t a r t s , 23 "The f i l t e r cak e," I t ' s the second to l a s t sen ten ce 24 in th a t paragraph, and I 'd lik e you to f i n i s h read in g 25 the paragraph. ! JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER VIC E 31 1 A 1 The f 11 ter cake may co n ta in up 2 50 p a rts per mil.lion, d io x in and should be cons le ereid I 3 ex t r i t e l y t o x ic . C ontact with th z sk in must be r ig o 4 o u sly a voider: 5 si what is f i l t e r cake! 6 / F ilt e r cake is the s o lid m aterial 7 th a t remains on the f i l t e r a f t e r treatm ent o f t h is p 8 w ith carbon and subsequent f i l t r a t i o n . So I t ' s pritr ! 9 carbon w ith some m a teria ls absorbed under the carbon i 10 (Whereupon a sh o rt break was taken 11 a f t e r which the fo llo w in g proceed in gs we 12 had:) 13 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) I ' m goin g to 14 hand you what has been marked fo r i d e n t i f ic a t i o n piii 15 a s P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it 347 (Monsanto 8307638 thro 16 8307648). Take a look a t tha-t. I note th a t I ' m ha 17 a copy to Mr. Love, 18 A A ll r i g h t . 19 Q Do you re co g n ize th is document? 20 A Yes, I do. 21 Q And were you the au th or o f it ? 22 A Yes, I was. 23 Q And does t h is appear to be a tru e 24 com plete and accu rate copy o f the r e p o r t t h a t youl pi 25 A I b e lie v e i t i s , a lth o u g h , 1 canf JAM ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E I 1 11 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 * J7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 s are.. 0 I re>iize in was ?. number o f yea to ago, so to the b e st o f your r e c o lle c tio n i t is? i j i A Yea. j i Q v.hat was the purpose o t h is report* A I t vz3 to report work done w ith the i purpose o f tr y in g to fin d a more econom ical ro u te to ' 4 ,5 -1 . C; ! 1 And th is is p art o f the- ongoing prob- lem to reduce nenufheturing c o s ts , is th a t rig h t? A That1? c o r r e c t. 0 In the course o f p rep aring t h is ren ort did you have occasion to in v e s tig a tio n the p rod u ctio n o f tetra le v e l chlorodibenzo-para-dioxins? A No, no. > j Q Did you review any lit e r a t u r e re'gard- ing the production'of dioxins in preparing th is report? A No. . Q You d id n ' t co n sid er the problem o f the production o f d io x in s a t a l l when you prepared t h is document a t a l l , then, is that righ t? i i1 A I don' t b e lie v e I was aware o f d il1o x in a t th is time in *61. \\?. Q In the course o f paring th i s document ! did you have occasion to review the lite r a tu r e w ith regard i JAMES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER V IC E .V 1 to the production o f 2 ,4 ,5-T in general? 2 A Yes. 1 would add, p a r tic u la r ly as 3 i t r e la te s to the manufacturing p rocess. 4 Q I 'd lik e co hand you what has been 5 marked fo r i d e n t i t i e s tio n purposes a s P la in t i f f s * E x h ib it #348 (Monsanto #8321498, e t a l ) , which i s on Monsanto 7 Company le tte r h e a d , A g ric u ltu re Chemicals D iv is io n 8 Research Department, and a t the lower righthand corner 9 i t co n ta in s h itr o m icrofilm #8321498. I'd lik e you] to 10 take a moment to review t h is m u lti-p a g e document. 11 A O.K. 12 Q Do you re co g n ize th e se documents]? 13 A h o t s p e c i f i c a l l y , 1 r e c o g n iz e the 14 handw riting and I'm fa m ilia r w ith th e s u b je c t m atter. 15 1 d o n 't remember a c t u a lly s e e in g the document b e fo r e , 16 Q I n o tic e a t the top o f i t i t has 17 b lock where i t s a y s , "Prepared by," What's th a t name? 18 A F,. L. R upel. j 19 Q And what is the name th a t appears a t 20 the bottom o f the page? 21 A 0 , C. Furuta, 22 Q Are you fa m ilia r w ith th o se people? 23 A Yes. 24 q How a r e you f a m ilia r w ith them? 25 A They tare both in h? group in *71 , 70. JAM ES MAY R E P O R TIN G S ER V IC E 41 I 1 1 Q Were you t h e i r s u p e rv is o r? , _Xi 2 3 A Yes. | i Q And in th e c o u rs e o f b e in g th e ir 4 s u p e rv is o r d id you become f a m ilia r w ith t h e i r work 5 p ro d u c t, in c lu d in g th e s e kinds o f docum ents? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And you s a id you re c o g n iz e d th e tiand8 w ritin g h ere, is th a t co rrect? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And whose h a n d w ritin g is th a t? 11 A F re d R u p e l, 12 Q What i s t h is docum ent? 13 A I t ' s n o te b o o k p a g e s t h a t r e l a t e t o 14 t h e w ork t h a t h e d i d In t h e a n a l y s i s o f l s o o c t y l 2 , 4 ,5 - T 15 e s t e r s a n d i n t h e c a r b o n t r e a t m e n t p r o c e s s d e v e lo p n e n t 16 t o r e d u c e t h e d e v e lo p m e n t o f d i o x i n . 17 Q A re t h e s e d o c u m e n ts w h ic h you r e l i e d 18 upon i n t h e p r e p a r a t i o n o f t h e r e p o r t w h ic h y o u a u t h o r e d 19 a n d h a s b e e n I d e n t i f i e d a s P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h i b i t #347j? 20 MR. LOVE: I 'm g o in g t o o b j e c t ii 21 to t h a t q u e s tio n u n le s s you show us th e 22 e x h ib it ag p ln . I 23 r.. , ; ^i. t A Mo, t h a t 's n o t th e r i g h t r e p o r t . 24 ` .. X ^ .; * /;-iJn*-..*4 MR. LOVE; W a it Jt-fitin u te* . 25 MR. SKAGGS: Sis i.* I n o t e f o r t h e r e c o riiid i JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E | v *' "l1 i 1 I'm ten derin g to you fo r your review #347, 2 MR, LOVE; You're a sk in g him i f he 3 r e l i e d on E x h ib it 348 dated February 18, 4 1971, in preparing a report reflected as 5 E x h ib it 347 th a t waa prepared January and May o f 1961, some te n years e a r l i e r , i s 7 th at your question? , l 8 MR. SKAGGS: I guess the answer ito 9 that is the document speaks for i t s e l f , 10 a s you fr e q u e n tly sa y . 11 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) What re p o r t did you 12 r e ly on in preparing th is ? 13 MR. LOVE: I'm going to o b je c t i 14 to the q u e stio n a g a in because 1 d o n 't > 15 have any id ea what y o u 're ta lk in g a b o u t. 16 T h ere's a re p o r t in fr o n t o f him. 17 Q (By Mr, Skaggs) O.K. You j u s t t e s - 18 t i f f e d , did you n o t, th a t th e se documents were prepared 19 by Mr. Rupel in the cou rse o f working on the problem o f 20 redu cing the d io x in th a t had accum ulated in the 2 ,4 ,5 -T i 21 in v en to ry a t the Krummrich P la n t, i s th a t r ig h t? | 22 A T h a t's r ig h t . 23 MR. LOVE; Y ou're t a lk in g ab out -* ' * A\ 24 P la in tiffs ' E xhibit 3 4 8 ? - >; 25 .'sit'lr. *-*,' *i MR, SKAGGS: I have bean r e f e r r in g JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER VIC E 1 to P la in tiff.-' Exhibit 348. 2 MR. LOVE: O.K. ii 3 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Do you understand 4 the questioni ! 5 A Yes, I understand the question, > i 6 And th is E x h ib it 348 does r e fe r t o , I t ' s notebook pages : ?i. 7 o f Fred R upel's in 1971 having to do w ith the rework iI 8 o f the 2 , 4 , 5 - I e s t e r in v en to ry o f the Krummrich P la n t. 9 And i s , and I* 11 hand you fo r your r e 10 view P l a i n t i f f s 1 E x h ib it 346, th e re p o r t th a t you Ju st i 11 m entioned! ! 12 A Yes. The data from 348 was used 13 in the p rep a ra tio n o f the memo 346. i i 14 Q Is the form th a t appears th ere a' 15 standard form t h a t 's used by Monsanto in i t s la b o r a to r ie s 7 ! 16 MR. LOVE: You're now ta lk in g about 17 3487 18 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) I'm r e fe n in g now to 19 348. 20 A Yes. Those are co p ies o f notebook 21 . pages that are in standard useage inResearch. ji j 22 Q T h at's a ra th er elem entary q u e stio n , 23 but a l l we have seen i s m icro film so X have no ides, what 24 you mean when you say n oteb ook s. Would you d e sc r ib e the 25 notebook th a t t h is page would come ron, p le a s e . | __________________________________ iI______ _ JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E ! 1 A I t ' s a bound book co n ta in in g e it h e r 2 50 or 100 p a g es, depending on the date o f i t , and I i 3 b e lie v e the page s iz e i s 8 - b y - l l and the form i s stiown 4 on t h is reduced N itro m icrofilm copy you have h e r e . 5 Q And i s i t the common p r a c tic e fo r a l l chem ists to use these notebooks in performing th eir 7 v a rio u s t e s t s and so forth ? 8 A In reporting th e ir research r e s u lts , 9 y e s , th is is the standard v eh icle for reporting r e su lts . 10 Q Did you r e ly on any o th er rep o rts 11 in preparing your two-page l e t t e r regard in g the red u ctio n 12 o f d io x in in th e Krunmrich in v en to ry , which was P la in 13 t i f f s ' E x h ib it #346? 14 A I don11 r e c a l l . 15 Q Is i t p o s s ib le th a t you did? ! 16 A Yes. 17 Q Was Mr. R u p el's o n ly co n n ectio n w ith 18 the a n a ly s is o f samples fo r TDD th a t on t h is p a r tic u la r 19 Krunmirich in v en to ry problem, is t h a t the only time you 20 e v e r worked on t h i s problem? 21 MR. LOVE; O bject to the form o f 22 the q u e stio n . 23 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) T h a t's a .rath er con 24 f u s in g , d o u b le-b a rre l -- 25 A I'm n o t p o s i t i v e , in it I b e lie v e t h is JAM ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E 1 i s the on ly involvem ent Free had w ith 2 ,4 ,5 - T . I guess 2 I b e t te r reca n t on th a t. S ee, Fred worked a t N itro 3 fo r a period o f tim e, and I d o n 't r e a lly know what h is 4 r e s p o n s ib ilitie s were prior to th is date. 5 Q Are you fa m ilia r w ith h is ed u cation al 6 background? 7 He has a n .S . D egree. I d o n 't r e c a l l 8 from where. 9 Q Is i t a requirement th at lab technicians 10 have a c o l le g e D egree, or do you have some p eop letfio 11 have o n ly a h igh Bchooi Degree? Do you have any kind o f 12 minimum requirem ents? ; 13 A W ell, no, th e r e 's no hard and f a s t 14 requ irem en t. There are lab te c h n ic ia n s th a t d id n o t 15 have c o lle g e D egrees. I f they do have a c o l le g e D egree, 16 we norm ally d o n 't c a l l them te c h n ic ia n s . We c a l l them i 17 re sea r ch c h em ists. 18 Q Do you have to have a c o l le g e Degree 19 to run gas chromatograph samples and o b ta in r e l i a b l e 20 r e su lts? 21 A No. 22 Q And t h a t 's a ta sk th a t a lab te c h n ic ia n 23 w ith o u t a c o lle g e Degree could s a t l a f o e t o r i l y perform? 24 A I t depends on th e -compl e x i t y h f ^ h e 25 a n a ly s is . Soma a n a ly se s req u ire a l o t more d e ta ile d JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E 1 a b i l i t y than o th e r s . Soice req u ire sample p rep a ra tio n . 2 In general, a non-degreed technician can be tra in ee to 3 do r e lia b le chromatographic a n a ly ses. 4 Q Can he be tra in ed to do r e lia b le 5 chromatographic dioxin analyses? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Would th a t exten d t o t e t r a l e v e l 8 dioxin analyses? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Inclu d ing 2 ,3 ,7 ,8 ? 11 A Y es, 12 MR. LOVE: I assume you*re speaking 13 in terms o f tod ay, now? 14 Q (By Mr, Skaggs) We' re speaking in 15 terms o f today. How about back in 1965? l A W ell, i f I'm answ ering about today, 17 I'm n ot e n t ir e ly sure th a t a non-degreed person cou ld 18 be r e lie d upon to do the more s o p h is t ic a t e d a n a l y t i c a l 19 procedures th a t a re being used today, I'm n o t e x p er t 20 enough to c e m e n t on th a t, but I know the procedures a r e 21 much more demanding. And I r a th e r doubt th a t a te c h n ic ia n 22 cou ld be r e lie d upon to do them. The m ethodology th a t 23 was available in th e 1960's and e a r ly * 7 0 's w as, a t ' 24 25 JAMES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E l 1 Q I'm fin is h e d with th at e x h ib it , I'd 2 i lik e to hand you w h at's bean marked fo r id e n t i f ic a t i o n 3 purposes a s P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h io it 349 (Monsanto #055679* 4 e t a l ) * and I ' l l note th a t I'm ten d erin g a copy to Mr, 5 Love and Ms, King fo r t h e ir review . Do you re co g n ize th e f i r s t page o f 7 document 349? 8 A I'm sure I'v e seen i t b e fo r e . I 9 recogn ize the form, I recogn ize the w r itin g and I recog 10 n iz e the s u b je c t m atter. 11 Q Now, a re you f e m ilia r w ith Mr. James 12 Sims whose name appears in th e "Prepared by" box a t 13 th e top o f t h is page? 14 A Y es. 15 Q How a re you fe m ilia r w ith him? 16 A He worked w ith rue and fo r me during 17 the la te ' 6 0 1s , 18 Q Do you happen to r e c a l l during what 19 s p e c i f i c p eriod o f time in the l a t e '6 0 's he worked fo r you? 20 A No, I c a n 't r e a l l y be s p e c i f i c . 21 Q In the course o f su p e r v is in g him you 22 became fa m ilia r enough w ith h is h an d w ritin g to be a b le 23 to reco g n ize i t hare tod ay, i s t h a t T ig h t? V- . r 24 .SLl *> A That's rig h t. 25 Q There i s a name ap p ears a t th e bottom JA M ES MAY R E PO R TIN G S ER VIC E 1 w h ic h -sa y s, "Read and ur. rood l y w i t h s o u t h in g 2 Bernard . 3 A That was Vi I l l s Bernard. She was 4 a lady th a t was a te c h n ic ia n in the group. 5 Q what is the r ig n iiic a n c e o f her s i g nature appearing a t the bottom o f the page? 7 A T h is, ag^ in, is a notebook page 8 copy, and th ere i i- a box a t the bottom o f a l l notebook 9 page co p ie r which sa id "Read and understood by1 and 10 th at'f. sig n ed by someone who can understand the su b je c t 11 m atter, and i t ' s a requirem ent o f our P atent Department 12 to do t h i s . I'm not e x a c tly sure o f the r e a so n s. 13 Q Y o u 'll have to excu se me. I'm j u s t 14 kind o f cu rio u s about th a t. Is she a p ro o frea d er\ 15 A No, not a p ro o frea d er. I th in k the 16 main th r u st is i f you have som ething t h a t 's p a ten ta b le 17 th a t y o u 're in v e n tin g , you want to have a w itn e ss th a t 18 understands when t h a t 's done and understands th e work. 19 Q What was Mr. Sims' d u tie s ? 20 A He was a te c h n ic ia n , and h is d u tie s 21 were p rim a rily a n a l y t i c a l , a n a ly zin g sam ples. 22 Q In th e co u rse o f h is d u tie s was he 23 r e sp o n sib le fo r a n a ly z in g sam ples f o r d ioxin ?-.. * -,- : > * i- ' 24 A Yes, he was. '*/.** 25 Was he s o le ly responsible f o r "V-- w i . !' tb s t or JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E 4i 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 ,14 -15 16 1V7* \ *v 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 did he share th a t re sp o n sib ility with others? MR. LOVE: O bjection to the form. Go ahead and answer i t . A O.K. A t the time o f these r e s u lts in '6 8 , 1 b e lie v e he was th e only one re sp o n sib le . There were others before and a f te r In c e rta in periods o f time. We ta lk e d ab o u t R upel, f o r In sta n c e . Q (By Mr. Skaggs) What was th e mechan ism Involved in p roviding Mr. Sims w ith the samples they would analyze? A The samples on th e f i r s t page a re you r e f e r r in g to now? Q Well, as his supervisor you're gener a lly fa m ilia r w ith h is work, i s n 't th a t rig h t? A Yes. Q Could you d escrib e fo r u s, p le a se , the general procedures th a t were followed in your lab in providing him w ith samples to analyze fo r dioxin? A Well, y o u 'll have to repeat the q u e stio n . Are you r e fe rr in g to the spies on th e f i r s t page? Mow, th ese samples a r e from a p a r tic u la r source and th e re was a c e r ta in procedure. There may have been W **/,*K > ^ samples analyzed from o th er sources*;. ; Q A ll r i g h t . How /* source from looking a t th is docusaftntV d eterralji the Vf. JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER VIC E __ 1 v ; 1 A I can t e l l by looking a t the f ir s t 2 l i n e where I t says W.R.U. and a number th a t th is number 3 I s one o f my notebook pages and I t came from my lab ora- 4 t o r y , probably from my la b o ra to ry in v e s t ig a t io n . 5 Q Can you determ ine from th a t number 6 what p la n t th e samples came from? 7 A No, no, 1 c a n 't. In fa c t -- I t says 8 1 -2 7 . S o, a g a in , i t look s v ery much lik e t h is was a 9 la b o ra to ry p rep aration th a t I cad e. D id n 't come from a 10 p la n t , 11 Q A l l r ig h t . Now, we a r e making a 12 l i t t l e b i t o f p ro g re ss. Would you e x p la in th a t, p le a s e , 13 t h e making o f la b o ra to ry p rep aration fo r a n a ly s is by 14 Mr. Sims. 15 A We ta lk ed about a re sea r ch program 16 t h a t we c a r r ie d o u t whose o b je c t iv e was to fin d c o n d itio n s 17 t h a t would reduce or e lim in a te the presence o f d io x in 18 in 2 ,4 ,5 - T . What I'm sa y in g is th a t t h is was part o f 19 t h a t la b o ra to ry stu d y , tr y to e s t a b lis h the c o n d itio n s 20 th a t led to d io x in . 21 Q I want to make su re I understand i t . 22 In 1968 Mr. Sims' r e s p o n s i b il it y was to a n a ly ze th e se 23 . . - 'v ^ ' specimens th a t you prepared fo r d io x in , is th a t correct? 24 A That was p a rt o f &i* d u t ia s , 25 r - i - :* y s'- 2 ^ * ' Q Did he or anyone ' h t W t M ' l u i t JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SERVICE 5 1 th a t period o f time an alyze samples from production 2 plants for dioxin? 3 A Not on a ro u tin e b a s is . I th in k we 4 had a sam pling program sometime w ith the p la n t where 5 samples were sent to S t. Louis for a n a ly s is . 6 Q Do you r e c a l l any d e t a i l s a t a l l 7 abait th a t sam pling plan? 8 A I thin k we d iscu ssed one o f those 9 e a r lie r th is morning. I d o n 't r e c a ll e x a c tly . There 10 rare e it h e r two or th ree o cca sio n s and went in and asked 11 the N itro people to send us samples from the au toclave 12 p r o c e s s . 13 Q Do you remember the d ates o f those 14 o cca sio n s? 15 A Roughly. The f i r s t one, I b e lie v e , 1 was in *65, and the other one th a t I r e c a l l , i t was in 17 *68. I do not r e c a ll i f th ere was s t i l l another one. 18 There may have been on ly two. 19 Q As I r e c a l l your testim o n y e a r l i e r , 20 I'm sure or Mr. Love w i l l c o r r e c t me i f I'm m istaken, 21 but I b e lie v e you sa id in '65 you took about iir e e sam ples, 22 is th a t rig h t? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And how many sanpljis d id you take in 25 1968? JAM ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE 1 A I don't r e c a ll. Again, something 2 lik e th ree. I guess the others - - W e l l , I'm so rry , 3 1 J u st c a n 't r e c a l l how many o f th e se sam pling programs 4 th e re w ere. E ith e r two or th r e e . 5 Q Are you a b le to take a guess a s to 6 when th a t th ir d sample might have been taken? 7 A W ell, I'm th in k in g th a t we took some 8 samples in '68 and then we took some a g a in in '69 when 9 we ran a p la n t t e s t . So th ere were l i k e a t o t a l o f 10 maybe 10 d if f e r e n t b atches throughout a l l th ose programs. 11 Q A side from th ose I n s ta n c e s , th en , 12 th e re was no o th er in sta n c e when you su p e rv ised the lab 13 a t t h is time th a t you r o u tin e ly t e s t e d m anufacturing 14 sam ples? 15 A No. W ell, w a it a m inu te. Would you 16 rep ea t th a t a g a in . There was a tim e - - There was a tim e when we an alyzed m anufacturing sam ples back in '6 5 . 18 We had a group o f samples we a n a ly z e d . We never d id 19 r o u t in e ly take sam ples on a r o u tin e b a s is from th e p la n t . 20 Q And in 1965, th e n , th a t w a sn 't p a rt 21 o f a r o u tin e p r a c tic e but p art o f a r e se a r c h p r o j e c t , 22 is th a t righ t? 23 A W eii, yeah , when,* f i r s t a n a ly se d , 24 learn ed how to a n a ly ze fo r d io x in , we g n a ly jw d f c i i i 25 retained samples. * * .. * JAM ES MAY R E P O R TIN G S ER V IC E X 5 p 1 Q About how many sam ples d id you an alyze 2 for d ioxin in 1965? 3 A About 15 or 20, Maybe 25. I d o n 't 4 recall. 5 6 1 7 Q You c h a r a c te r iz e d th e se a s r e ta in e d sa m p les. What does th a t mean? A The la b o ra to ry a t H itr o and our 8 o th e r p la n ts have a sample r e te n t io n program where obi 9 v io u s iy th e r e 's no room to save ev ery sample t h a t 's 1 10 taken, so th ey r e ta in c e r ta in satuples Hie samples th a t i 11 had biijeen r e ta in e d , we asked fo r p o rtio n s o f th o se and 12 th ey jsent us e it h e r the p o r tio n or th e f u l l sam ple, I 13 d o n 't know w hich. W Q Who decided whether a sample would . :15- /:' be saved o r d estroyed a t the p la n t? 16 V -; v 1' * * aV 18 A I d o n 't kiow. 1 presume i t would be the C h ief Chemist a t the p la n t. Q And how would he go ab out making th a t 19 d e e l s ion? i 20 i' A , I r e a lly d o n 't know. 21 *j Q Do you know I f th ere was a w r itte n 22 p o lic y fo r him to fo llo w ? 23 A No, I d o n 't k n o w ife " '- 24 Q This sounds ^ ' 25 u su a l occurrence in 1965 Did a memo o r memorandum go out JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G S ER V IC E 5 -1 C) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to N itro a d v is in g them o f th e purpose o f th e se t e s t s and so forth? A I don' t re c a ll. Q Do you r e c a l l an y s p e c i f i c c o rre s p o n - dence betw een $ t . Louis and M onsanto in 1955 when th e se re ta in e d samples were analyzed by you re g a rd in g th a t te stin g procedure? A Regarding the procedure fo r analyzing fo r dioxin? Q Uh huh ( y e s ) . A What tim e fram e are. you ta lk in g ab o u t? Q In *65 when you u n d e rto o k t o t e s t th e se re ta in e d sam ples fo r d io x in , do you r e c a l l any consnunications between S t. Louis and Monsanto? A S t, Louis and - - Q Between you and th e N itro F l r n t , A Do I r e c a l l a n y c o rre sp o n d e n c e - - No, I d o n 't r e c a l l . I don' t rem em ber, T here was com m unication, b u t w hether i t was in th e form o f cor-* resp o n d en ce, I don' t know. Q Did you p e rs o n a lly p a r t i c i p a t e in th a t communication? A I spoke to B ill B alderson on se v eral occasions. Q . **; ^.* .* What were th e n atu re o f th o se JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER V IC E 55 '1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13' ^ 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 [l conversations ? A W e ll, i t was a d is c u s s io n o f th s $ c t t h a t wq had o b ta in e d a n a n a l y t i c a l p ro c e d u re , a n a l y t i c a l s ta n d a r d o f d io x in from Dow and t h a t we wished to ana ly se whatever samples were s t i l l re ta in e d i in Nitr-: to sec what: th e e x t e n t o f d io x in in our sam ples might be. b i d y o u a d v is e him w ith reg ard to e l e c t i n g p a rtic u la r, sam ples to be sen t to 5 t. Louis for further asly sis? * I d o n r t r e c a l l , I tl.in .; what we s a i d , we ached v?hr-ther th e r e w ere any sam ples r e ta in e d because we d id n ' t know, and I th in k he d id n ' t know e i t h e r p ro b a b ly a t th o tim e . He g o t back to me and to ld me what was a v a i l a b l e , how, w h eth er we g o t ev e ry sample t h a t was re ta in e d a t nnat tin e cr ju s t se lec ted ones I don' t r e c a ll. Q Do you r e c a l l d is c u s s in g w ith him d isp o sal o f e x istin g sam ples; k No. Q Tjo you r e c a l l d is c u s s in g w ith him the to x ic o lo g ic a l c h a ra c te ris tic s of dioxin? A X don't re c a ll sp e cifica lly , but I know th e r e was enough co n c ern r a i s e d a t th e time th a t th e m a te ria 1 c o u ld be h azard o u s t h a t v& were recommending extrem e care in handling the m a te ria l. JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E 56 1 Q Men:, d e s c r ib e t h i s ex trem e c a r e . 2 W e ll, I ' m n o t a c h e m is t, s e e . You sa y to me extjaae c a r e , 3 w e l l , I d o n ' t know what c a r e l e s s h a n d lin g o f ch e m ic als i s . 4 A Avoid c o n ta c t w ith th e m a te ria l is 5 the basic. 6 Q And how do .you do t h a t ? 7 A W ell, you sim ply d o n 't allow any to 8 g e t on your sk in . 9 Q I 'm ignorant about these th in g s. 1 10 w ant you to t e l l me hc^j one goes a b o u t a v o id in g ex p o su re 11 in th e la b o r a t o r y . As th e l i n e o f my q u e s tio n s u g g e s ts , 12 I 'm s t i l l i n t e r e s t e d in th e s e r e t a i n e d sa m p les. How 13 when th e y came in to th e la b would you h a n d le them? 14 A We w e r e n 't p a r t i c u l a r l y co n cern ed 15 a b o u t a i r b o r n e ex p o su re b ec au se we know t h a t th e m a te r ia l 16 was a s o l i d and was v ery h ig h b o i l i n g . Our main t h r u s t 17 was to p re v e n t anyone from c o n ta c tin g t h e i r s k in w ith i t . 18 So to t h a t en d , we w ere v e ry c a r e f u l when we to o k th e 19 m a te r ia l t o w eigh i t o u t o f th e l i t t l e v i a l t h a t i t 20 was in - - th is is the pure d io x in stan d ard th a t I'm 21 t a l k i n g a b o u t now - - in o rd e r to make s o l u t i o n s o f i t 22 to use a s s ta n d a r d s f o r a n a l y s i s . So j u s t t e l l i n g 23 p e o p le to u se extrem e c a r e and n o t l e t i t c o n t a c t ,$ h e ir 24 b o d ie s . .if . 25 Q W e ll, d id you t e l l them to w ear JA M ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E 57 1 '1 j2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 V 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ~ 1 25 s im pervious c lo th in g ; A I d o n 't knov i f y?*? d id o r n o t, h u t t h a t 's n o t e p a r t i c u l a r l y good , 1 d o n 't think. I th in k i t ' s much b e t t e r wrier: you're wording in th e la b o ra to ry to have a l l o f the fo alin g and touch th a t you can have r a t h e r than to hy\*e a space s u i t on or som ething lik e t h s t where you c a n 't t&ndle m aterials w ith a le t o f d e x te rity . Q And t h a t includes- c io x ir.? A . Yeah. 0 Then your p r e f e r r e d t -th.od fo r h a n d lin g d io x in is a s much p h y sica l c o n ta c t as you esn a c h ie v e ? | A As l i t t l e p h y s ic a l c o n t a c t . Q O.K. The moon s u i t i s n ' t a p p r o p r ia te fo r handling dioxin? A I d o n 't think so, no. j *"? Now, I'm s t i l l hav in g tr o u b le g e t tin g a h a n d le on how you d e a l t w ith th e s e sam p les. Did you wear su rg ic a l gloves? A We d i d n 't have any p a r t i c u l a r demand upon o u r people t h a t th e y sh o u ld wear a n y th in g . Q Did you a d v ise them to w ear s u r g ic a l gloves? A -! i| I may have a s a n a tte r o f c o u r s e , yeah. Q Did you a d v ise them to wear lal> co a ts? JAMES MAYREPORTING SERVICE 58 A T gon11 it-r.'Cmb-^r. Q Did you d is c u s s w ith Mr. B alderson the proper handling of these samples? A No, I d o n 11 b e ll^ v 0 T d fd in an y p a r t i c u l a r d e t a i l . I c e r t a i n l y mentioned to him p ro b ab ly in w ritin g th a t sam ples, th a t he should avoid c o n ta c t w ith the m aterial. Q Rut you d i d n 't go a n y f u r t h e r th a n th a t? A T d o n 't re c a ll. O Did Mr. B ald erso n se e k your a d v ic e w ith re g a rd to th e h a n d lin g ojf th e sam ples? A Not th a t I remember. Q Some tim e b ack I b e l ie v e you s a i d , we were naming th e d a te s on w hich you w ould have been an aly zin g m n u factu rin g samples fo r dio x in and you used the phrase the P la n t's te s t. A Yes. Q A gain, I'm ig n o ra n t. Is th a t r e f e r r in g to a s p e c if ic o c c a sio n , o r w hat does t h a t term mean to you? A There w ere some t e s t b a tc h e s made in , I b e lie v e , *69, e a rly '6 9 , in which the p la n t used th e c o n d itio n t h a t I had d ev elo p ed in th e c o u r s e o f my work to tr y to reduce d io x in le v e l, so th o se c o n d itio n s were te ste d in the p lan t over a period o f sev eral batch es. Q Excuse me. I missed th e l a s t s e v e ra l - - JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E 1 Kow Ion? 2 A S everal batches.. 3 Q Vef lL t a l k ab o u t t h a t f o r a moment. 4 Who was th e s u p e rv is o r in ch a rg e o d i r e c t i n g M onsanto 5 to tei-t th is procedure'.' L I don' t know th a t one person s a id , 7 you know, do t h i s . 8 W ell, th en , how did i t come about 9 th a t " i t r o u n f'e rtu ck to ru n e t e s t o f youi propose-:* 10 p ro ced u re? 11 A V e i l , in the naturr.* c o u rse o f th in g s 12 people a t N itre- t.v w rl; a. p eo p le in R e sea rc h w ere s w r r t 13 t h a t we were tr y in g to d ev elo p inr-thoir thr. t le u to r e 14 duced d io x in . P eople in N itr o w ere q u i t e i n t e r e s t e d 15 in t h i s , so I d isc u sse d i t w ith them f r e q u e n t l y . I 16 w ent to th e p l a n t , a s " aentinned e a r l i e r , and d is c u s s e d 17 th e c o n d itio n s t h a t I had d e v e lo p e d . As a consequence 18 o f th is a p la n t t e s t was plannee! by th e p eo p le in th e 19 p l a n t . Now, I don' t knot? t h a t any p a r t i c u l a r in d iv id u a l 20 was r e s p o n s ib le f o r i t . 21 Q Who w ere th e p eo p le a t th e p l a n t t h a t 22 you worked w ith on th is t e s t? 23 A Ed *Eaake, X b e lie v e -- I g e t a l i t t l e 24 confused as to who was th e r e . The names Edward Thake, 25 Gene C u trig h t, Vem Rhodes - - I th in k V em was th e JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER VIC E 60  \. 1 Department S upervisor a t the tim e o f th e p la n t t e s t . '2 . Q You r e c a l l an y o th e r s p e c i f i c names? 3 A B alderson. Yeah, th e re were se v e ra l 4 other people a t the p la n t. Jack Strum . I'm try in g to 5 th in k o f o t h e r s . There a r e o th e r s I c a n ' t r e c a l l r i g h t now. 6 Q Did you c o n s u lt w ith D r. W allace r e - 7 garding th is te s t? 8 9' A No. Q Y o u 're aw are o f who D r. W allace is ? 10 A Not f o r s u r e . He c a y have been a 11 p la n t d o c to r a t N itr o . 12 Q T h a t's c o r r e c t . Do you r e c a l l , and 13 I r e a l i z e you may n o t remember nam es, do you r e c a l l 14 o r g a n iz a tio n a l p o s it io n s you may have d e a l t w ith a t 15 N itr o re g a rd in g t h i s t e s t ? 16 A Yeah. T alk ed to th e S u p e r in te n d e n t 17 o f A g r i c u ltu r a l P ro d u c ts M a n u fa c tu rin g a t N i t r o , I 18 th in k t h a t was Ed T a sk s, an d to V em R hodes, who was 19 th e D epartm ent S u p e r v is o r , and t o some o f th e T e c h n ic a l 20 S e rv ic e D epartm ent e n g in e e r s . 21 Q Do you r e c a l l w h e th e r I have shown 22 you a n e x h i b i t w hich encom passes th e p ro c e d u re s t h a t 23 . you w ere t e s t i n g a t t h a t tim e , an d I ' l l be happy to 24 make them a v a i l a b l e , th e ones you reviewed so fer for 25 your help. .*x ` * *, ' JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G S ER V IC E 6] 1' 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 .n 12 \, 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. 10VE: I d o n 't understand what you' re ask in g him. Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Let me g iv e you the e x h ib its you have review ed so fa r and ask you i f the procedure th a t was t e s t e d in 1965 was co n ta in ed in any o f them. A I don't b eliev e i t was. Q Was th a t procedure in w r itin g ? A W ell, i t was the su b je c t o f a f i n a l report. Q I have reviewed the ech ib its so far J u st b r i e f l y . A gpin, i t ' s my ig n o ra n ce. I'm handing you E x h ib it 3 47, which i s a P rogress R eport. Now, i s th at what you're ta lk in g about, or a re you re fe rr in g to another document? A No. This had n oth in g to do w ith th at work. Q And th a t p rocess th a t we a r e ta lk in g about w ouldn 't appear on a form such a s t h i s , and I'm referrin g to E xh ib it 347? A That's a Progress Report form. No. I t was on a F in a l Report form, which i s somewhat d if f e r e n t . Q To whom was th a tjp e p o r t form addressed? A I th in k we d is c u s s e d th a t e a r l i e r . I t ' s ra th er wide d is t r ib u t io n , and t d o n 't reda 11 e x a c tly JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER V IC E 62 1 who was on th e d i s t r i b u t i o n . 2 Q W ell, what were the re s u lts o f the te s ts ? 3 MR, LOVE: Which t e s t s a r e we ta lk in g 4 about? 5 Q (By h r . Skaggs) What w ere th e r e s u l t s 6 o f the p la n t te sts? 7 A The p la n t t e s t r e s u l t s w ere t h a t the 8 a v e ra g e le v e l o f d io x in on c o n tr o l b a tc h e s , w hich means 9 the then e x is tin g process co n d itio n s, gave an average 10 o f a b o u t 10 p a r ts p e r m illio n d io x in in t h a t in te rm e d ia te 11 a u to c la v e s tre a m . The t e s t b a tc h e s u n d er th e new con 12 d i t i o n s gave a b o u t 3 p a r ts p er m illio n on th e a v e ra g e . 13 Q Was t h i s proposed m a n u fa c tu rin g 14 p ro c e s s fo rm a lly a d o p te d on a r o u tin e b a s is ? 15 A No. l Q Why noc? 17 A B ecause we s h o r t l y t h e r e a f t e r sto p p e d 18 n & n u fa c tu rin g i t . 19 Q How soon a f t e r you ra n th e t e s t s d id 20 you sto p m anufacturing it? 21 A 1 d o n 't r e c a l l . I t was a m a tte r o f a 22 few m onths. 23 Q You mean f i v e , s i x m o n th s,-so m eth in g 24 l i k e t h a t ? 25 A I d o n 't know. P o s s ib le . JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E 63 1 '1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 ' 23 24 ' 25 *1 MR. LOVE; I d on't know whether y o u 're through w ith w hat's been marked E xh ib it 349 or n o t, but what th is e x h ib it ap p ears, as b est 1 can t e l l from the numbering, that the pages are a l l kind o put together In d iffe r e n t fa sh io n , they are out o f order, and the num erical system located in the lower rlghthand com er does not appear to be con secu tive. A The lower rlghthand c o m e r w ouldn 't have much to do w ith i t . I t ' s the upper rlghthand co rn er. MR, LOVE; I d o n 't know th a t th a t means an y th in g , but I mentioned i t fo r the purpose of the record. MR. SKAGGS; I'm n o t a t a l l su re j u s t what happened. There a re some numbers on th is page which are stamped a t the top upper rlghthand co m er and the lower r ig h t- hand c o m e r , q (By Mr, Skaggs) Mow, do you re co g n ize those? I'm r e fe r r in g to 85310 and a t the bottom r ig h t - hand c o m e r 055679. , A W ell, the 85310 la the notebook .page * number. I d o n 't know what the 055679 I s , Q That's ap parently an'Agent Orange JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 64 1 '1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 '1 i d e n t i f i c a t i o n number, so 1*11 r e fe r in the fu tu re to the number in the lower righthand corn er. MR. LOVE: I would su g g est an example of what I'm ta lk in g about, the f i r s t page in the upper righthand corner is 85310, the second page i s 85311 and the th ird page is 85313, su g g estin g th a t 85312 is not th e r e . T hat's j u s t a comment I have to make, so the e x h ib it appears to-be in com plete. MR. SKAGGS: W ell, as you 're aware o f the con d ition in which th ese documents were d e liv e r e d to u s, there were a number o f pages which appear to be c o n se cu tiv e that d id n 't appear as consecutive pages in the r o l l s o f m icrofilm so th a t may have been the prdiem here. Q (By Mr. Skaggs) In any e v e n t, to return to the p lant t e s t r e s u lt s , what a l l you d isco v ered , th en , was th a t the average le v e l dropped from 10 parts per m illio n to 3 parts per m illio n but you d id n 't in s t itu te the plan because in a few months the p la n t was shut down? A Right. Q Did you have any input in to the d e c isio n JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 65 'I 1 t;o c lo se the ? ,A ,5 - ff plant? 2 A So. 3 Q I>id you a n t ic ip a t e the p o s s i b i l i t y 4 that d io x in le v e ls might, a c t u a lly in c r e a se as a r e s u lt 5 of this process? 6 K: . 10VI: I'm going to o b je ct 7 to the form o f the q u e stio n . 8 C 'Oy Mr. Skaggs) P r o c e ss, o f co u r se , 9 I'm r e fe r r in g to is ir.h r. proposed procedure th at they 10 were t e s t in g during th is p la n t t e s t in 1969. 11 A r id I have any a n tic ip a tio n th a t 12 they would in crease? 13 Q Yep, s i r . 14 A ho, none. 15 Q l i e you view the n e c e s s it y o f ta k in g 16 any s p e c ia l p recaution s regarding exposure to d io x in 17 during the running o f th is te s t? 18 A Nothing beyond what was standard in 19 the p la n t. 20 Q Was any other personnel th ere fo r the 21 s p e c if ic purpose o f view ing the production o f th e se 22 b atch es, o f su p e rv isin g the employees there? 23 A I d o n 't r e c a l l . Anyone o u tsid e o f 24 the ordinary p la n t s u p e r v is io n , you mean? V -s 25 Q E x a c tly . JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 66 1 A Not th a t I know o f . 2 Q Was i t l e f t to the ord in ary plant, 3 su p e rv iso rs to implement th is procedure? 4 A Yes . W ell, X don11 r e a 1ly know. 5 Kl Who e l s e b esid es y o u r s e lf in S t . Louis 6 was in v o lv ed in t h is p la n t t e s t procedure? 7 MR. LOVE; O b ject, I t ' s been 8 asked and answered but go ahead and 9 answer him a g a in i f you can.' 10 A Nobody th a t I know o f th a t I can r e c a l l . 11 Q (By Mr, Skaggs) I'd lik e to retu rn 12 now to E x h ib it 349, O ff the record , 13 (Whereupon d isc u ssio n was had o f f . 14 the r e c o r d .) 15 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Have you had an 16 i op p ortu n ity to review the pages which com prise document 17 #349, which are the notebook sh ee ts bearing Monsanto 18 Company t it le h e a d and sign ed by James Sims? 19 A Yes, b r i e f l y . 20 Q And did you reco g n ize Mr. Sims' name 21 on each and ev ery page? 22 A Yes. 23 ,. * Q And did you reco g n ize h is sig n a tu r e 24 on each and ev ery page? 1 25 A Yes. JA M ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E 61 1 Q you reiow .1 h is handw riting 2 as h is handw riting op each n*5 ftvery psg? o f that e x h ib it? 3 A Yes, as far as 7 can t e l l , 4 Q iou w ere, at- you t e s t i f i e d e a r l i e r , 5 h is su p erv iso r fo r a number o f years. In the course c f s u p e r v is in g him, you became f a m i l i a r w ith h is h a n d w ritin g , 7 is that correct? 8 I V * , tha t 1s c orrec t . 9 0 I 1-'* 1 :he to hand you wh*.r. nai* been 10 marked fo r id e n t i f ic a t i o n purposes as P l a i n t i f f s 1 E x h ib it n #350 (Monsanto 69535, et: a l> . I note fo r the re.;.ore 12 th a t I *m ten d erin g a copy to H r. Love, and 1 would ask 13 you to take a moment and review that document, p le a s e . 14 MR. 1GV-L: 1 c* going to o b je c t 15 w ith regard to thr f i r s t page o f ti^at l documsnt: in tiu* t. i t*1.* clc:ar. 1y fasrk**'. 17 a tto r n e y work product. I t ' s a t i t l e 18 sh e e t th a t should not hav* been produced, 19 b u t, o b v io u s ly , i t was produced in ad ver 20 t e n t l y . And you have my o b je c tio n to th a t. 21 MR. SKAGGS; You1r* j u s t making i t 22 f o r th e re c o rd ? I assume you*re n o t going . r* 23 to i n s t r u c t him n o t to answ er t h e - q u e s t i o n s . 24 MR. LOVE; W e ll, i ' l l w a it and se e t /. - 25 what th e q u estion s a r e . JAM ES MAY REPO R TIN G SER VIC E 68 '1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 l-ftf.. SKAGGl'. your o b je c tio n on ly go to the coy*-*** c i^=t if t i n t document? i Mil. I..1VA ; At ib is " o in t, Y es, i v 1i- the only on*.* I've-, seen . A You wane me to go through a l l th e se page;? 7 v; (By Mr. Skaggs) W ell, why d o n 't w you take a 1- s t f i r s t three pages o f document 5-350, -rr Is A?t>- led 2 ,4 ,5 - ? ?rocesr and i t cor.tain s an a tta c h a e n t , what appear to be two handw ritten p a g es, and the Agent Orange document numbers are 69535 and 6 9536. Uave you baG a r. op portu nity to re ylew th o se documents? A- Ju.^t b r ie f ly . ^ Now, go you r e co g n ise them? A No, I c o n 't. Q And,once again , I n o tice they are sign ed by Mr. E alderson. Do you reco g n ize th a t appears to be a page from e notebook? Do you reco g n ize th a t form at all? A ' No. I t ' s the same form as on the previous document. I think i t ' s the laboratory, the sm all laboratory books they use a t N itro , but-I'm not su re. Q Would you d escrib e fo r me, p le a s e , the kind of recordkeeping that they did a t the laboratory a t JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 69 ' 1 N itro. ^2 MR, 10V?; I f you !rnw, 3 A I wae nor fa m ilia r w ith -- I know 4 th a t they had 1st notebooks and 7 b e lie v e they had 5 per fora te c pages, I \:a ^ n-=v-r f u l l y aware o f th e ir 6 rep ortin g procedure: 5 . 7 0 (By Mr. Skaggs) Have you had an 8 o p p ortu n ity to rc^d Agent Orange page number 695357 9 A Yes. 10 Q V hat's he doing there? 11 A He!s a n a ly zin g samples of 2 , 4 , 5-T 12 fo r d io x in . 13 Q And do you reco g n ise any figu re^ 14 on th a t page which to you would he the r e s u lt* o f those 15 t e s t s ? 16 A !!o. In f a c t , an 1 read i t .r.ore c a r e 17 f u l l y , h a 's a n a ly zin g a u to cla v e samples and h a1s r e p o r t18 in g , a p p a ren tly , the t o t a l phenol? in the a u to c la v e 19 samples on th is page. 20 Q But as X understand `51, th en , you 21 d o n 't see there where he ha? a rriv ed a t a fig u r e ttiat 22 would rep resen t a le v e l o f d io x in in th o se sam ples? 23 MR. LOVE: I'm going to o b je c t to. 24 th is lin e o f q u e stio n in g ;o n what i s a-document 25 o b v io u sly prepared by an oth er person which JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 70 1 this lv: 1s neve;' seen 2 b e f o r e p nr" i.m\ yo u r in qv-j.r >v-p o f him a b o at 3 the c o n t e n t o f t h a t docv:y*5n{; which p u r - 4 p o r t e r ? v f p3ak s i'o; i.ts e 1f and as k in g 5 l . i a t o d eterm in e wht t the th o u g h t p r o c e s s vu; o f the* w r i t e r in 1969. You can 7 *nsv;a r h i : q u e s t i o n . 8 i t ' . i :iAGi: T may b r i e f l y c l a r i f y 9 f o r tho r r.vo-.d, uiu-i*. V'a a c h i n g him i s 10 ba 5e r on h is ecuca t ior; a nd e x pe r i e nc e snc1 11 f a m i l i a r i t y w i t h the r e c o r d k e e p i n g and 12 hr bor- t o r y r r o r ^ d r .r r i- ;. Monsanto i f 13 h e ' s a b l e t o d e t e r m in e vhr.t p r o c e s s Mr. 14 lialderson was u s in g enc` i f h e ' s a b l e to 15 i n t e r p r e t : t h i s doc uir.-cai: a e co n te in in g any l r e i u l t s a ? , r e c u r o f a t - s t i n g p r o g r a f t . 17 Q (bv Mr, Ckr gg=) Uov, do you r e c o g n i z e 18 a u y f i g u r e s on t h e r e t h a t r e p r e s e n t d i o x i n ? 19 A Yes. I b e l i e v e t h a t t h i s second 20 column w ith the top number b e i n g 4 . 3 , I t h i n k t h a t ' s 21 a clioxin ana lye i s , end in the l a s t column I b e l i e v e i s 22 e t o t a l phenols a n a l y s i s . 23 Q Do you se e any in d ic a tio n t h a t th a t 24 d io x in l e v e l is p arts per m illio n or p a rts per b i l l i o n 25 or some other fig u r e? JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E 1 1 Ml' . * fh'-_'*** gT. fjn 9 T1ri >-C> 2 t o o b j e c t to the q u e 1 i o n . Yon as k ed 3 him what he se^s or page, I f yon 4 can answer ch~ q u e s t i o n , go ahead anc 5 Co i t . 6 A There's nothing on the page th at 7 t e l l s what the unit?, a re in e i t h e r c a s e . 8 0 (Yy ;.ir, Skaggs) Would i t be a common 9 p r a c t i c e to I n d i a : t c on th e page what th e u n i t s a r e : 10 Mr.. T.OVT:; I 'm g o in g t o o b j e c t to 11 the form o f t h a t q u e s t Lor. s i n e . You' re 12 now a s k i n g him a b o u t p co^c.)n p r a c t i c e 13 a t N i t r o , and hc*s a i r c c d y t e r r i f i e d 14 he d i d n ' t know what the p r a c t i c e s were 15 a t R i i r o . I f you can answer i t , answer i t . 16 A T oov 1u k n w , T h a t w i l l be done 17 sometimes on a r e s e a r c h n o te b o o k , anc I assume i n a 18 p l a n t notebook you might do t h a t sometimes. I f you 19 had on an e a r l i e r page s e t the g u i d e l i n e s , s a y , t h a t 20 in the f u t u r e we won' t say ppm b u t i t w i l l be i n f e r r e d . 21 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Eut you would a g r e e 22 as a common p r a c t i c e in th e f i e l d o f c h e m i s t r y i t would 23 be the p ro p er p ro ced u re t o i n d i c a t e th e u n i t s - th o s e 24 f i g u r e s should r e p r e s e n t , i s t h a t r i g h t ? 25 A I ju st explained th a t th a t is n ot JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 72 1 n e c e s s a r ily the ca*) : , Ths r If,' y-*u. h/jvn? dcl' your pro 2 cedures e a r lie r arm d escrib ed them on a notebook page, 3 then ttare.' s no need to rep ea t i t . 4 tic s a le tiiac the samples iiad been 5 analyzed in i t . Louis, you a b le to determ ine froiu 6 yoir review of th is dccumant whether those samples would 7 have been analyzed by your o f f ic e or from the date o f 8 the document whether th ose v?ert* sam ples in v o lv ed in any 9 o f the p ro cS '.? t e s t in g th a t you e a r lie r d escrib ed 10 > I don' t know o f anyone e l s e a t the n time who would Have been doing ar_e lyre? but our group., 12 so I assume i f they were analyzed in S t. L o u is, they 13 vere an alyzed by my group. 14 Q And 1 b e lie v e your testim on y was th a t j 15 i f they are analyzed oy ycur group a t th a t p erio c o f tim e, I 16 they would have beer, an alyzed by l i t . d in s , is th a t rig h t? 17 A Yes. In f a c t , I do re co g n ize the 18 numbers now th a t I look a t thee; more c l o s e l y . They a re 19 numbers from the b atch es taken cu rin g the p la n t t e s t s , 20 I b e lie v e . 21 Q So i f I may, r e fe r r in g to document 22 69535, about a th ird o f the way down the page, which is 23 a reproduction o f a notebook, a s e r ie s o f numbers th a t 24 begin a t number 149 and end a t number JL57 and in columns 25 corresponding to each o f th o se numbers a re *TDD fig u r e s JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E 7: 1 and t o t a l phenol f ig u r e s , and i t ' s your testim on y that 2 these are samples that were taken in the course of 3 the p la n t t e s t s th a t you e a r lie r described? 4 A I c a n 't be c e r t a in , but I b e lie v e 5 th a t to be the c a s e . 6 Q I'd lik e to d irect your a tten tio n 7 to Agent Orange 69536, and i f you would take a moment 8 to review th a t. 9 A Uh huh ( y e s ) . 10 Q L ik ew ise, are you fa m ilia r w ith what n Mr. Ealderson i s doing here? 12 A No, I'm n o t. 13 Q Do you understand the language 14 near the bottom o f the page which rea d s, "Standard 15 s o lu t io n produced a TBP peak"? Id A Oh, yeah. I think i t was TDA, but 17 i t ' s TDD. 18 Q What do you think he meant by that? 19 MR. LOVE: O bject to the form. 20 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Based on your edu21 c a t io n , ex p erien ce o f the area o f a n a ly t ic a l ch em istry , 22 i s th a t a term o f a r t? 23 MR. LOVE: O b jectio n . A gain, what 24 do you mean, term o f a rt? - What i s a term 25 o f a r t? JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 71 1 Q CBv Hr. Skaggs) TDD peak frox 2 standard so lu tio n ; 3 A I d o n 't know.whaL th a t means. 4 Q W ell, you have no id e a , th en , what 5 he means by making th a t n o ta tio n ? & A I'd had to assume - I t looks lik e 7 he was having a problem w ith h is a n a ly t i c a l method. 8 Q What was th a t problem? 9 HR. LOVE: O bjection to the to rn . 10 We a re g e ttin g o f f in the area o f surm ise 11 and s p e c u la tio n . The answer to the p reced 12 ing q u estio n was, which I o b jected to , 13 was i t looks lik e he had a problem, and 14 now you 're a sk in g him wiiat th a t problem 15 appears to have been. I f you can answer 16 i t , answer i t . 17 A It appears h e's saying the standard 18 s o lu t io n h e 's u sin g did produce a TDl) peak In the a n a ly s is . 19 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) In o th er w ords, i t 20 got a very high ra tin g fo r th a t, is th a t rig h t? 21 A High ra tin g ? 22 Q The standard s o lu t io n produced an 23 ex trem ely high reading o f TDD7 V'V 24 A I d on 't know how o ic h . No, 1 have 25 no idea what kind o f a rea d in g . \: JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E Q w ell, 1 i t says peak, that could t 2 have been the h igh est reading? 3 A No. A peak o f any s iz e is a peak. 4 I t can be huge or extrem ely sm a ll. I t means a resp o n se. 5 I t d oesn t wear in the sen se o f the h ig h e s t l e v e l . I t 6 sim ply means th a t there was a. resp o n se. 7 Q Nov, baseo on your f a m il ia r i t y w ith 8 the gas cnrornatogj^jh p rocess ana how you a n a ly ze fo r 9 d io x in u sin g th a t p ro cess, would you have expected the 10 s tandard s o lu t io n to produce the h ig h e s t valu e fo r the run 11 A No, not the h ig h e s t v a lu e. 12 Q Why not? 13 A W ell, when one prepares a stand ard , 14 the b e st standards are those th a t approxim ate the same 15 s i z e or same resp onse th a t you1re going to se e in the sample th a t you 're a n a ly z in g , so you try to a d ju s t jour 17 standard co n cen tra tio n norm ally to be somewhat in the 18 Bame b a llp a rk as the expected r e s u lt s from the sam ples. 19 So, th e r e fo r e , s iz e o f the peak id e a lly i s about the 20 same as the s i z e o f the peak th a t you see in the samples 21 o f the a n i l i n e s , 22 Q Are you a b le to ex p ress the o p in io n 23 regard in g the accuracy o f the fig u r e s l i s t e d on 69535 24 a s a r e s u lt o f rev iew in g th is document? . v, , 25 MR. LOVE: I'm going to o b je c t to JAM ES MAY R EPO R TIN G S ER VIC E the form of the q u estio n . You*re asking i him to exp ress an o p in io n w ith regard to numbers on a page prepared by someone e ls e which would appear to be o f no value to anyone a t th is p o in t, but you can answer the question i f you can, A These on 69535 the samples have been analyzed in S t, Louis, and I th in k those numbers a re ones t h a t came from S t. L o u is , i f I u n d e rs ta n d t h i s c o r r e c t l y . I f t h r f s the c a s e , I can couHoent to some d eg ree on th e a c c u ra c y o f th e method we w ere u s in g in S t. Louis. I d o n 't r e c a ll. I think i t ' s documented in the method. I d o n 't r e c a l l what the standard accuracy was. Q (By Mr. Skaggs) I 'd l i k e to d ir e c t your a tte n tio n to the second group o f pages th a t comprls in part E x h ib it 350 and a g a in have a co v er p age, say Process 2 ,4 ,5 -T and they con tain o r ig in a to r , t i t l e in form ation and d is t r ib u t io n in fo rm a tio n , and I 'd lik e to d ir e c t your a t te n t io n to Agent Orange #69562, which is attached to that page. MR, LOVE; I'm goin g to o b je c t to the f i r s t page on the sane b a s is I ob jected . TS** *X.- *. . , ^, *". V to the f i r s t page o f thi. lather document. Q (By Mr, Skaggs) And a sk you to read JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E that to you rself. A 0v i Q Do you r e co g n ize thachandwriting? A No, Q Are you fa m ilia r w ith the name R.H. Cooper which appears a t th e bottom o f both 69562 and 69565? A Yes, I'm fa m ilia r w ith the name, Q Who was he? A I don1t know. He was theautnor or s e v e r a l rep o rts from h i t r o , but I neveri did know him. Q So the way youcame to know h is name, though, was because h e , I suppose, prepared docu ments a t N itro th a t came to your a t t e n t io n here in S t. Louis, is that right? A That's r ig h t. Q Who was R. A. A tkinson whose name appears a t the top o f page 69562 and 69563? A I d o n 't know what A tk in so n 'sp o s itio n was. I did kiow him. I did meet him a t the p la n t. He was, I b e lie v e , an engineer in the p lan t. Q Did you re c o g n iz e w hat th e y w ere doing here? A Yes. Q What a r e th ey doing? JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E A Vhey a r e e v a lu a tin g an a lte r n a te source of sodium trich lo ro p h en a te fo r use In 2 ,4 ,5 -T . Q Is th a t n art o f the r>Lanc t e s t -- W ell, t h is was two veers e a r l i e r - - i s th a t p art o f the procedure th a t you recommendedi I th in k , back in '6 5 , or do you have a n y knowledge o f m o d ific a tio n o f the sodium trich lo ro p h en a te p rocess? MR. LOVE: I'm going to o b je c t to vour q u e stio n on the b a s is th a t I Just don't understand i t . Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Do vou have, any fa ra ili ritv * i.th i A i !I Q < i the process they are undertaking here? Yes. What were they d oing there? - MR. LOVE; I'm going to o b je c t to the form o f the q u e stio n . You're ask in g -j I the w itn ess to read a document prepared ! by somebody e l s e which he t e s t i f i e d h e 's never seen b efore and you 're ask in g him to in terp ret what people are doing. I f you can answer the q u e stio n , answer i t . A I t appears th ey ob ta in ed some sodium trich lo ro p h en a te s o lu t io n from an oth er co mpan y, Hoffmann, Hoffmann L aboratory, and then th ey p u t t h i s m a te r ia l through laboratory preparation o f 2 ,4 ,5 -T . JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E 1 vT (By Mr. Skaggs Did your laboratory 2 have an yth in g to do w ith m onitoring th a t process? 3 MR. L0VS : What la b o ra to ry you 4 ta lk in g about? The one a t N itr o , the one 5 in S t. Louis? 6 MR. SKAGGS: I'm speaking o f the 7 lab oratory he worked in In the course o f 8 h is d u ties that h e's described to us ea rlier 9 A Did we have an y th in g to do w ith moni 10 to r in g the p ro cess? 11 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Y es, s i r . Did you 12 have an y th in g to do in any kind o f manner in regard to 13 the experim ent t h a t 's d escrib ed on documents 89562 and 14 89563 which you have j u s t read? 15 A 69 -- 16 Q I a p o lo g iz e . The document which you 17 j u s t read. 18 A Not to ray r e c o l l e c t i o n , we had |no 19 knowledge or in p u t in to t h i s . | 20 Q I 'd lik e you to take a moment to r e 21 view th e rem aining documents th a t com prise t h is e x h ib it 22 and a d v is e me i f you r e c o g n iz e any o f them as bein|g 23 rep o rts made in the co u rse o f th a t p la n t t e s t - or th e 24 1965 p ro cess t e s t or i f you r e c o g n iz e any o f them a s r e 25 garding your in v e s t ig a t io n o f d ie 2 , 4 f5-T p rocess a t N itr o . JA M E S MAY R E P O R TIN G SER V IC E 1 A Cf c o u r s e , i t nay n o t be p o s s ib le 2 to make t h a t kind o f i d e n t i f i c a t i o n a s X go through them. 3 This is a rep eat, i I 4 MR, LOVE; The document which I 5 b e lie v e y o u 'r e s u g g e s tin g is Agent Orange #69535 and is found back in the body o f 7 these documents as w ell as the second page, 8 same th in g w ith 69536. 9 A Seems l i k e s e v e r a l o f t h e s e a r e r e p e a t s . 10 No, t h e r e ' s n o th in g e l s e in th e r e t h a t seems to have any n connection. 12 MR. LOVE; I would, o f c o u r s e , have a con 13 t i n u i n g o b j e c t i o n to an y one o f th e s e 14 s h e e ts t h a t a r e stamped 'A t t o r n e y Work 15 P ro d u c t, A tto r n e y - C l i e n t P r i v i l e g e " t h a t 16 a p p e a r w ith in t h a t e x h i b i t . 17 MR. SKAGGS: I u n d e r s ta n d . They 18 a r e such in fo rm a tiv e docum ents. 19 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) I 'd lik e to hand 20 you w hat's been marked fo r id e n t i f ic a t i o n purposes as 21 P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it # 3 5 1 ,which i s a document bearing 22 Agent Orange #001564 and appears to be a memorandum from 23 you to E. F. Taake In N itr o . I 'd lik e you t o take a 24 moment to review t h a t , p le a s e . 25 % L*. 7 \i*- *- A Yes, I recognise th is . JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E C Is that your signature th at appears t a t the bottom o f it? A Yes. Q And were you the author o f t h is document? A Yes. Q And does i t appear to be a tr u e , f u l l and a ccu ra te copy o f the memorandum th a t you w rote? A As n e a r ly a s I can t e l l , y e s . Q The memorandum in d ic a te s some c o n c lu sio n s th a t you made and th ey begin w ith number 1, and I'd lik e you to read, i f you would, the f iv e co n clu sio n s th a t you reached. A "1, During A p r il, 1965, production o f TDD ro se to an a ll- t im e h igh and has remained much h ig h er than the previous norm c u r r e n t, ab out 50 ppm, normal about 10 ppm. Number 2 , The form ation o f TDD takes place alm ost e n tir e ly during the hold period. 3 , At the end o f the hold p eriod the TCA c o n te n t accou n ts fo r 2 .0 to 2.5% o f the y ie ld . About o n e -h a lf o f t h is i s removed by a reo tro p ic d i s t i l l a t i o n In the methanol s t i l l and r e c y c le s w ith the m ethanol. 4 , The TCB i s e s s e n t i a l l y gone a t about one hour in to the hold p eriod . 5 , Extend- in g the hold period r e s u lt s in Increased TDD form ation (hatch 701)." Q r i%How d id you reach th o se co n clu sio n s? JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E 8 1 1 A a n a ly s is o f the samples th a t we t u 2 r e fe r r e d to e a r lie r and the a n a ly is o f , I b e lie v e , three 3 batches th a t were withdrawn from the a u to c la v e a t about 4 th is point in time. 5 Q Regarding number 5 f did you in t e n t io n a lly 6 increase the hold period for batch 701? 7 A I don't r e c a ll sp e c ific a lly , but I 8 suppose we d id . I would guess th a t we d id . 9 Q And did you a n t ic ip a t e when you did 10 th a t th a t in c r e a sin g the hold cycle would r e s u l t in in 11- crea sed TDD form ation? 12 A At th is time we d id n 't Ionov what to 13 a n t ic ip a t e . Vie were sim ply tr y in g to lea rn som ething. 14 Q Now, those a u to c la v e batches were 15 made a t N itr o , is th a t r ig h t? 16 A R igh t. 17 Q And th a t was in the re g u la r m anufactur18 ln g part o f the tr ic h lo r o p h e n o l p r o c e s s , i s th a t c o r r e c t? 19 A T hat's c o r r e c t. 20 Q And did you take any extra p reca u tio n s 21 regard in g exposure to d io x in when you were performing th e se 22 t e s t s ? 23 A No, n oth in g beyond th e p la n t norm. 24 C e r ta in ly not th a t I r e c a l l . 25 Q Would you read the f i n a l paragraph o f JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 th a t memorandum. 2 A carnet o f the r e c e n t in c r e a se 3 in TDD form ation i s not obvious from the d a ta . However, 4 s in c e TDD form ation has been r e l a t i v e l y low in th e p a s t, 5 we f e e l th a t a d e ta ile d la b o ra to ry stu d y o f th e a u to c la v e re a ctio n has a reasonably good chance fo r s u c c e s s . Such 7 a stud y i s now in the planning sta g e .* ' 3 Q Vila that the stu d y th a t we have talked 9 about earlier? 10 A We ta lk ed about s e v e r a l s t u d ie s , but 11 t h a t ' s one o f the s tu d ie s we ta lk ed ab ou t e a r l i e r . 12 Q And which o f the s tu d ie s th a t we 13 talk ed about was t h a t 9 14 A I t was the stud y o f the c o n d itio n s , 15 the important v a r ia b le s in the a u to c la v e r e a c t io n . l Q Was th a t the stu d y th a t was d esc rib ed 17 in the handw ritten document which was e x h ib it - - 18 A No. 19 q Which was E x h ib it 344? 20 A No. 21 Q I t waB not th at? 22 A No, 23 Q What was the outcome o f th a t stu d y , then? 24 i < MR. LOVE: I'm going to o b je c t. I 25 d o n 't know what study you*re t a lk in g about now. JA M ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER V IC E iBy Mr. Skaggs) W all, ?'m ta lk in g about the study th a t's referred to In the la s t paragraph o f the memo frcn Mr. TJdell to Mr. Taake dated September 14, 1965, MR. LOVE: Which i s marked fo r id e n t if ic a t io n as E x h ib it i?351. A Right. Q of th at study? (Uy Mr. Skaggs) What was the outcome i A The- outcome o f th a t stu d y was we did id e n t if y v a r ia b le s -- We id e n t if ie d c o n d itio n s , l e t ' s sa y , through which we exp ected to m inimise the form ation of dioxin. Q Having id e n tifie d those v a r ia b le s, what did you do then? A Having id en tifid the con d ition s? Q Yes, s ir . A W ell, then we proceeded in to the p la n t t e s t s we d isc u sse d e a r l i e r . Q On t h is September 1 4 th , 1965, document which is d esc rib ed as a stu d y which began then and culm inated in th a t p la n t t e s t th a t concluded in 1979? A T h a t's r i g h t . -f- Q P rior to 1969 did you reach any con clu sion s in that study? JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E A y yet . Host o f the conduL- ions were dove loped during 19Gb. Q But in any e v e n t, nothing wa:' a c t u a lly done w ith i t u n t il 1969 i s th a t rig h t? MB. LOVE; I'm going to o b je c t to the torn. I think i t ' s purely obvious fro u the q u e stio n s asked and the answers g iv en tliLt resea rch was underway to develop i. p ro cess which would a ch iev e the ends d e sir e d . HP.. SKAGGS; W ell, I th in k t h a t 's - MR. LOVE: I f I may f i n i s h . And th a t th a t stud y was com pleted. I think the c o n c lu sio n s were reached in *66 and when the co n clu sio n s were reached the t e s t s were run, which occurred in 1969. HR. 5FAGGL: 1 a p p r ecia te your summary o f the ev id en ce on th a t p o in t. Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Who is Mr. Dunlap whose name appears a t the top o f document 351? A Mr. Dunlap was th e , I b e lie v e , Manager or D irector o f M anufacturing. I d on't r e c a ll h is exact title . Q And where was ha located ? Manager or D irector o f Manufacturing o f what? A S t . L o u is. Of the A g r ic u ltu r a l Research JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SERVICE 8< i 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 . - .17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 D i v i s i o n - - n o t R e s H e rri-. The- A g r i c u l t u r e D i v i s i o n o f M onsanto. Q ''ho w o u ld ha h a v e re p o r te d , to ? A He w o u ld h a v e r e p o r t e d to th e g e n e r a l manager of the d iv is io n . Q Who w as M r. S te p h e n s ? h Mr. S te p h e n s was my b o s s . He was R e s e a r c h M anager a t t h a t tim e , I b e l i e v e . He was my b o ss* s b o s s , D ex ter Sharp was on th e r e , so D exter was my Group L e a d e r a n d Jo h n S te p h e n s was th e n h i s b o s s . Q Does th e A g ric u ltu ra l D iv isio n have l a b o r a to r i e s o f i t s own? MR. L-OVE* you s p e a k in g in te rm s o f today? Q (By M r. S k a g g s) Today does th e A g r i c u l t u r a l D iv i s i o n h a v e l a b o r a t o r i e s o f i t s own? A W ell, i t has la b o ra to rie s th a t a re a d m in istra te d by a C e n tra l R esearch D epartm ent, as do a l l th e M onsanto la b o r a to r ie s in S t, L o u is. Q Has t h a t been th e o rg a n iz a tio n a l s tr u c tu r e sin c e you have been w ith the company? A W ell, no. Q What was i t p rior-to the present organizetiona 1 stru c tu re ? " ** "' . A Prior to th is organizational structure JAMES MAYREPORTINGSERVICE 8 1 th ere was no A g r ic u ltu r a l Research D iv isio n or i t % 2 was formed, I g u e ss, in 1960 and we !u*d some borrowed 3 lab space from the old Organic Research labs a t Second 4 S tr e e t in the Queeny plant;. 5 (h ereu p on a short re c e ss was taken, 6 a fte r which the follow in g proceedings were 7 had:} 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ` 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 \ (Dp Hr. Skaggs) Before we took the sh o rt r e c e s s wh&t I was g e t t in g a t is is there another la b o rato ry th a t the Ag D iv isio n might havt th a t would a n a ly ze process samples from the m anufacturing plants? MR. LOVE; Ve' re speaking nov o f 1965? Q (By Hr. Skaggs) V e il, l e t 1? s t a r t in 1960. A O.K. In 1960 was there an oth er la b o ra to ry where N itro pfent samples might be analyzed? Q Right. A W ell, 1960 was when the Ag D iv is io n was formed. At th a t time I w ouldn't thin k -- I th in k th ey'd be analyzed e ith e r a t N itro or by the Research fu n c tio n . L ater on there were oth er la b o r a to r ie s th a t could have run an alyses. Q What were th e la b o r a t o r i e s ? A W ell, th ere's c u rre n tly a la b o ra to ry JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 8! 1 a t Dayton th a t does environm ental sam pling o f the 2 a n a ly se s . I t 1" r;. " r n c r c t-: fu n c tio n . That1s one I 3 had in mind. 4 0 Arn there any o th ers? 5 A Not th a t I know o f . not th a t come 6 to mind, 7 Q Are there any o th e r s i n th e p a s t th a t 8 night have analysed process samples from the manufacturing 9 plants ? 10 A Net th a t I know o f . 11 3 Sc the o n ly two la b o r a to r ie s th a t 12 would hava analv^ad samp la s e ith e r a? an ongoing b a s is . 13 or in the aourre o f your research a c t i v i t i e s , s p e c ia l 14 o c c a sio n , would have been the A g r ic u ltu r a l Research 15 la b o ra to ry in which you worked and the la b o ra to ry in l Dayton, i s th a t r ig h t? 17 A N itr o , la b o ra to ry in N itr o . 18 19 N itro? Q And the la b o ra to ry a t th e p la n t in 20 A Dayton w ouldn't have been in volved 21 a t th a t tim e. 22 Q 23 A 24 some tim e. 25 Q When would i t have been in v o lv e d ? Probably n o t u n t i l ro u n d th e o ld 17 0 's So I t would have m issed th e 2 t 4 t 5-T JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER V IC E 8`  business a l l together? 2 * Yeah. 3 Q Again, th is is going to be an educa 4 tio n a l q u estion fo r me. I'd lik e to d ir e c t your a t t e n 5 tio n to the graphs attached to P la in t i f f s ' E x h ib it #351. Just looking a t i t I n otice that ev id en tly the Agent 7 Orange id e n tify in g number has been c ro p p e d o f f , I 8 suppose, but there are f i v e pages o f graphs. What are 9 those? 10 A The f i r s t four r e p r e s e n t , the a n a ly s is l o f samples taken from a u to c la v e b a tc h e s, I b e lie v e , and 12 analyzed fo r f iv e d if f e r e n t c h em ic a ls, and th o se r e s u lt s 13 are then p lo tte d per c e n t or ppm versu s tim e. ;14 Q What were the f i v e ch em ica ls th a t 15 were analyzed for? 16 A T rich lo ro p h en o l, t r ic h lo r o a n i s o le , d i 17 m ethoxydichlorophenol, I d o n 't r e c a ll e x a c tly what the 18 name o f that third on~ i s , i t ' s a diraethoxy im purity 19 made in the trich lo ro p h en o l p r o c e ss, thvn the fo u rth 20 on? is TDD and the l a s t one is tetra ch lo ro b en zen e. 21 Q The th ird chem ical which fo r my sake 22 I ' l l c a l l DMEO, is th a t an im purity t h a t 's a s s o c ia te d 23 to tetra ch lo rod ib en zo-p ara-d io'xin ? 24 A Not to my knowledge** . s.-..'.25 Q Is there any c o r r e la tio n between the JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E 1 production o f i t and the prod uction o f tetra ch lo r o p a r a 2 dibenzo-dioxins? 3 A I think n o t. Not th a t I know o f . 4 Q What about the f i f t h graph, what 5 does i t represent? 6 A The f i f t h one i s th e p lo tte d a n a ly se s 7 o f the 2 ,4 ,5 - T r e ta in e d samples th a t we m entioned.'e a r l i e r , 8 we d iscu ssed e a r l i e r . Samples th a t had been r e ta in e d a t 9 N itro and then sent, to i't . bouls fo r a n a ly s is o f TDD. 10 This is a g ra p h ica l r e p r e s e n ta tio n o f the TDD r e s u lt s 11 versus tim e . 12 Q Who prepared t h is chart? 13 A I d id . 14 Q And does the rep rod u ction o f th a t 15 chart th at*s b efore you r e p r e se n t a tr u e , f u l l and 16 accu rate copy o f the graph th a t you prepared and a tta ch ed 17 to your memo? 18 A Y es, as fa r as X know. 19 Q Who prepared the four p reced in g graphs? 20 A I did. 21 Q And do those lik e w is e appear as tru e, 22 f u l l and com plete c o p ie s o f the graphs th a t you prepared 23 and attach ed to your memo which i s E x h ib it 351?. y . 24 . - v.'.r. A I t 's not very le g ib le in placaV, but 25 th ey are b a s ic a lly com p lete, as fa r a s I can t e l i . JA M ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER V IC E  2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 -"''IS 16 - 'V 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Is ray understanding c o r r e c t, th en , from a review o f t h is ch a rt th a t the h ig h e s t con cen tra tio n o f d io x in th a t you found in th ese reta in ed samples was 55 p a rts per m illio n which occurred in , I guess -- W ell, perhaps you can c la r if y th a t. I can11 read ex a c tly when th a t peak i s . A I t looks lik e the end o f A p r il. Yes, th a t's correct. 1965. Q That graph o f the h isto r y o f d ioxin T -acid is based s o le ly upon those reta in ed samples? A Yes. Q So i t ' s p o s s ib le th a t th ere are samples which contain d iffe r e n t values o f d ioxin that you did not co n sid er in making th a t chart? A There are d e f in it e ly samples th a t con tain ed d if f e r e n t le v e ls o f d io x in chat are not on th is chart. Q You have any idea what th ose other valu es might have been? A No. Q Why did you d ir e c t t h is to Mr. Taake as the addressee? A Because Mr. Taake # a s in charge i>f the o p era tio n a t N Itro for Ag and he and i t was in form ation th a t should be b f use to him. JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E 9 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 IO n 12 13 14 15 16.'. "' \`V 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q When you say he was in c h a rg e , I be l i e v e , o f the o p e r a tio r.,w h a t e x a c t l y do you mean, what was he r e s p o n s i b l e f o r? A W ell, he was the s u p e rin te n d e n t of Ag m a n u fa c tu rin g o p e r a t i o n s a t N i t r o , We m anufactured se v e ra l products a t N itro , and he had r e s p o n s ib ility f o r n o t a l l c f N i t r o but a l l o f th e Ag p r o d u c ts t h a t were manufactured th e r e . Q I s e e . So he was r e s p o n s i b l e f o r the 2 ,4 ,5 -T , th e re would be a n o th e r comparable person r e s ponsible fo r the petroleum products, and they would a l l re p o rt to the Superintendent or the P la n t Manager? A Yeah. Q I ' d l i k e to d i r e c t your a t t e n t i o n now to P l a i n t i f f s 1 E x h ib it 352 (Monsanto #8314271, e t a l ) . I a s k you to ta k e a moment to review th e pages o f t h a t document. I n o te t h a t I ' m handing a copy to Mr. Love for his review. MR. LOVE; Do you want him t o go through the e n tir e document? MR. SKAGGS: W ell, th e y a l l b ea r h is sig n a tu re , so he can begin w ith the f i r s t one and I ' l l , of course, give hinradequate tim e to rev iew the page, :t a w hich vr e fe r v ' V-`r*" V- Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Do you reco g n ize th e JA M E S MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E < f i r s t page o f E xh ib it 352? A I re co g n ize my handw riting and the subject matter. Q Is th at indeed your sign ature that appears in the b lock ''Prepared by" ? A Yes. Q Does th a t appear to be a tr u e , f u l l and a ccu ra te copy o f the document th a t you o r ig in a lly wrote? MR. LOVE: You ask in g him now about a l l pages o f the document? Q (By Mr. Skaggs) 'w ell, r ig h t now I'm re fe r r in g to w hat's N itro m icrofilm #8314271. A I note there i s no sig n a tu re on the bottom where i t s a y s , "Read and understood b y ," which i s r a th e r unusual u n le ss i t was cu t o f f in the rep rod u ction Q A side from th a t, does i t appear to be com p lete? A Yes, i t does. Q When you made t h is p a r tic u la r document in March o f 1965, were you a t that time resea rch ch em ist or had you moved in to a su p erv iso ry p o sitio n ? A I was a research ichem ist a t th a t tim e. Q Who was your su p erv iso r 'then? Sy MR. LOVE: C o llie Bryant, JA M ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A . 7Hr. * -v e a r l i e r . I be 1hi ve Dexter Charp by t h a t t i ^ s . Q (?.;r Mr. okagps And would i l hava i ii i1 1ii j ! ; been liis p r a c t i c e to review t h e pages t h a t you liad p ro - duced in your p o s itio n as a re s (arch chem ist? A No, not r o u t i n e l y . Q Is chat a page out of the notebook th a t you d e s c rib e e e a r l i e r or Is i t a d i f f e r e n t docunient? A This is a page out of e research notebook, o u t of my rasearcr* notebook. i *.T I 'd l i k e tc d i r e c t ycut a t t e n t i o n to document #8314312, which is the *urni- ocuioent. down. I ' d lik e you to take a moment to review t h a t document. Have yon had e~* o p p o r tu n ity to read i t ? A Tes. Q I? th a t document in your handw riting? A Yes. Q In f a c t, th a t's your signature a t the top of th e page in the b lo ck tha t read s ''P rep ared by"? A Yes. Q And does t h a t appear to be a t r u e , f u l l and accurate copy of the o rig in a l document th a t you prepared? A Yes, i t appears so , . .v. . :;V.. Q I 'd lik e you to r e a d , i f you w o u ld , JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE K OS ' 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 i1l1 the f i r s t lin o t'ruc appear" o.- i::\- ; \ Jcu.T.env:. I s 1 -_n j the ;'?corx Viand d w : h ` than i r a :: i . A Fie^intiinr wi to ''ST-','* ? <) Yl-e.-*S J '--------. i 1 i A "Gi.C of 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 t e t r a c h l o r o d i b e n z o - 1,4 d io x in on F and M 72.0 w ith 'rc d e t e c t o r . 11 Q Is 2,3,7,8-cetrachlorodibenzo-lf4 d io x in .c h u came as 2 , 3 , 7 , 3 - t e t r a c h l o r o d i b e n z o ~ p a r a - d i o x i n ? A Yes. | ! Q Can you determine from your review of chat document what you were t e s t i n g fo r dioxin? A I d o n ' t -.now what *\r v* 5-, I t was some m a t e r i a l f r o r ; A . J . $uro=, i t ' - - d e s c r i b e d in A. J . Burns' notebook. I c a n ' t tel"} vha t i t was from this and I d o n 't remember. Q !,she re is the p a r t i c u l a r language y o u ' r e r e f e r r i n g to th e r e ? Is t h a t up here in the second l i n e ? A I t s a y s , ''Samples p r ep ared by A. J . Burns contained anthroquinone i n t e r n a l s t a n d a r d , " and goes on to d e s c r ib e the colu:nn, the c o n d i t i o n s , and i t s a y s , " I n j e c t e d 100 a i c r o r i t e r s of AG 28435-1 (AJ B ) .-) So the sample came from t h a t s o u r c e . I d o n ' t r e c a l l wha t tha t wa s . Q What kind o f sample- would that^Jiave been? Would t h a t have been a s t a n d a r d you were t r y i n g JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 96 I 1 to l.ua ie or c. l ... ; A i l i 2 t* ? '`M 7'--c r : : *: vsi * staiuV.r; , 3 p r o lv .1y **a*.r. m: to r 5 t .v t r v e iv e r* r orv D*>.j 4 or s solution of i t . 5 Q A coupH o i ' iraes we have touched 1 upon b r ie f ly the ljov; sam ples. What was your involvement | 7 w ith chat'. 8 *iy ?up-c r v is o r , ray have been Dexutr | 9 Sharp or Six-phene , gv<-* *'* the procedure th a t liai *oee:: 10 receiv ed rc:r an:, gr- w: :te g ~rcl`_ saxpl tlis t wa.- i j 11 Is be le d, I t o1: yv , 4 ,1 ," ,? - ce t jr _\ 1orodibe a - 3- 0 iox i n . 12 Alt ' !."ST VrV|:11 C."` '<<?V'" ^ c r:; i 1 1 j 13 A I t ' -j7 I h a V* 'i - *j r- s-i ;-ir..rch o i * 5 3 . ; ! i 14 Q b ir* they g lv t yo\. a t y ->tii: r a a t e r ia i ' 15 & long w ith the t a n a ly t ic s ! it tho-' or th ose Scruples'* 16 A O L. t i 1 _ r ei -V*T 1!I r 17 Q Did you d isc u ss w ith them .the procedure' 18 fo r handling th ese Dow samples? 19 Mh. LD'Vd: E je c tio n . Dio he d isc u ss 20 w ith whoa? 21 Q 22 Hr. Stephens. (1-y Hr. Skaggs? h ith Mr. Sharp anc 23 24 ago. 25 A I don't r e c a ll. I t ' s boen_a long time q Do you r e c a l l d is c u s s in g th e se Dow JAMES MAY R EPO R TIN G SER VIC E 97 1 r.fcrifV-:, v ' t 1 * 2 / 'Vf"** *t"Jti-y. f r. v rom? t"i.t? s. f t^*r 3 t K i t "h e y t:?:-r; .* vc t1?"; \ i vh f.V ;^ at Ki t r o , he.t 4 7 de*':1 1 r o c - 'l a n y o t h r r . 5 O V'hon v e rt; t h w z c o n v e r s a t i o n s w i t h peor-' a t K* t r o ? 7 I w.71^ rem ember. 8 ^ ' o ;-.:u r e c e l : t h e c o n t e n t o f t h o s e 9 .cnvrrTr.tnr; w ith * a ' N ih ro ^ 10 / v ' , 'uvi ' g e n e r a l d i s c u s s i o n of 11 the fr-c ' it hr*' they 1c-i-} th e procedure t we were 12 t:e st **nr. i t t .i wo wc ' S \ v?.''1,i.*::* -:?*' t r. tc- do sorae 13 t e s t / ' >*?r tToorfST* th e to tho**. 14 rV. r i d yo 15 h?T.ev:r. W , g - t e t r a c M l #-V* -, - !_I . ' J -C-Iy .. -J . / 17 rA\ Age i n , 18 c onv^r<;atior.s, b u t I'm su ra I d i d . 19 Q Do you recs. 11 d i s c u s s i n g the to x ic o lo g y 20 of TCDD w ith Mr. Sharp or Mr. Stephens? 21 A T v o n 11 ren*?.mhor any s pec i f ic o cc asio n s 22 doing t h a t , no. 23 Q Did they a d v ise you o f any" s p e c ia l 24 procedures to fo llo w when you were h and lin g these-.sam ples? 25 A Not th a t I r e c a l l . JAM ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E 1 Q Die they a d v ise you that i t was e x w 2 tremely toxic? 3 A It lev eled t~>xic, and the method 4 documentation d iscu ssed tb* .fact tht i t was p to x ic * 5 ma te r ia 1. Q when vou were handling i t in the lab ora 7 to ry , did you use any extraordinary procedures when you 8 were handling the sample? 9 A Extre^elv careful not to le t i t con 10 t a c t u s, a g a in . 11 Q V1? ! 1, t'6 went through that once b efo re, 12 so b a s ic a lly vou did the eerie tb in r 9 13 A Yes . 14 Q What did you do with th ese Dow samples 15 when they came in , what was the purpose? You sta r te d l a n a ly zin g them -- 17 A There was one sam ole, one standard 18 sm all v i a l , as I r e c a l l , o f materia'?. 19 Q And what were you to do w ith t h is v ia l? 20 A We were to reproduce or repeat the 21 co n d itio n s th a t they gave us fo r the a n a ly s is as n ea rly 22 a s we could w ith the equipment th a t we had and e s t a b lis h 23 whether we could in fa c t repeat the r e s u lt s tlia t Dow 24 d escrib ed in the method and then, f u r t h e r , we w ere to 25 look a t our samples from process m a teria l made a t N itro JAMES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE . to determine whether the saso was p resen t and to who t v r tr r .t, the rrorf??'' camples you ju s t referred to , ?re th ose thepp retain ed samples vou r e ferred to earlier? A VJ^ll, i t was undefined a t th a t p oin t in tim e. J notice here that I have determ ination of d io x in in sodiurr >7AT ccke t 39-po\;nd sample. I remembered th a t was a sample th a t vo had gotten fo r other stu d ie s unrelated to d ioxin and happened to be the on ly N itro sample we had on hand ir f t , Louie, And so th a t was the f i r s t one wc analyzed thn ve pot oth ers we d iscu ssed b efo re, the retain ed samplec and the a u to cla v e samp Is s . Q Aside from the in c id e n t th at occurred here on the March 15th, 1965, lab r e p o r t, did you use any oth er samples from N itro th a t you happened to have ly in g around to analyze for dioxin? A Not that I r e c a ll, Q As a m atter o f course did your lab ora to ry have samples from N itro th a t wre to be used fo r other purposes other than dioxin a n a ly sis? A Not as a matter o f cou rse, H o. Q Did you o fte n have sam ples a t N itro th a t you used fo r other purposes? JAM ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SER VIC E 1 % 1 A i'o. f1 | 1 1 j1 2 ^ `' o vr**- ,^n -v*1 ^ncc,s i or th at j 1 3 h""1TiO!*'''**1 h^ *n i'o^ Jhi t*v ?-V*"*r**'Ctpf*n1"irt*g ---- i I1 4 A Thjr vyr ? podiy-- T. In othe.r words, 1 5 a cake o f the 2 ,4 ,5 -T arid before i t was n it r a liz e d . 6 Q But i t via? unusual you happened to 7 have th at 39 round? o f Lt s i t t i n g there? 8 A l?h huh (ves ) . i 9 0 I'd lik e to d ir e c t your a tte n tio n now 10 to document *3314320 in the same E x h ib it *352, which on n my s t a r.!t i - the rl?:t^ :'~rr' ' > and Tld rrk you to take 12 a mornert t i revic*" th a t docir^e^t. 13 Hr7 you had rn oorortu n { ty to review it ? 14 A ro t y e t . 15 n .v . 16 Q And,once a g a in , is th a t your handwriting" i 17 A Yes , i t I? . 18 Q And t h a t 's indeed your sig n a tu r e in 19 the "Prepared by" block? 20 A Y ss, i t i s . 21 Q And t h a t 1? a tr u e , f u l l and a ccu rate 22 copy o f the document you o r i g in a l ly prepared? 23 A To the b e s t o f my knowledge, y e s . 24 Q I would lik e fo r you, i f you would, 25 to read the f i r s t two sen ten ces o f th a t form in to the record . JAMES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E % 101 A ''lscu p ssr bvTc cr aa toe r-1. 5 id d io y to n ro b ler vf.tb ^'Prp PK.*>rior f r o ^ r p i trrf?att=v T as . f o i l t" ' F ir s t o f a l l , w'npt v ~c the hvno tr e n t- ment? A Triat war treatm ent w ith sodium hyno* ch lorite, as T recall. ? I y t.ha t unre la ted to .the 2, /*, 5-T prcc A ?-ct. er. t ir e l v . I t liar been * to died .-? a way o f improving the c o lo r o f the oronuct. :'p wanted to determine wh^t^^r i t a nr -in or* the d ioxin | i ii1 I t ! as w ell. 0 on the dioxin? A Tid t*ot? find th*>t i t had an" in flu e n c e As I r e c a l l , i t v?s e ith e r com p letely j 1 j i ! ! j in e f f e c t iv e or net very e f f e c t i v e . 7. d o n 't remember exa c t l y . Q The date o f thto document is, March 3 1 s t, *65, so is the d io x in problem you d iscu sse d with Mr. Rhodes, as you r e c a ll , the Dow l e t t e r and pc forth ? A ' Yes. Q Do you r e c a ll the d e t a ils o f th a t con versation? A No, I d o n 't, Q Do you r e c a l l an yth in gabout it ? JA M ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E 102 A 0 T5n you recf 13 whether you an-.-i Mr. Rhoc? s wo.u1d b? ve ta Xked a bout thp to v i r r>lo gtea 1 ho. za r i associated with dioxin? MR. LOVE: O b j e c t i o n to t h e q u e s t i o n . He s a i d he d o e s ^ t r e c a l l a n y t h i n g a b o u t the c o n v e rsa tio n . I f you c n answer him, answ er bin:. A I don11 know. I would have to add t h a t I wap a w a re o f the r e p o r t s o f t h e t o x i c i t y o f th e m a te r ia ls , so 1* 0 c u lt s su re I would have d iscu ssed the animal to x ic ity of th is m aterial w ith anyone th a t I discussed dioxin w ith. Q (By Mr. Skaggs) And, a g a i n , and I a p o l o g i z e , b u t i t * s been some t im e , why would you have co n tacted X r. Rhodes about th is : \A Mr. Rhodes was t h e p e r s o n d i r e c t l y r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h e o p e r a t i o n o f t h e H i t r o P l a n t . He was t h e P l a n t S u p e r v i s o r , s o he was one o f my p r im a r y contacts in m tte re of th is type. Q You have h e r e n o t a t i o n s r e g a r d i n g , I g u e ss, t h i s .is th e same 39-pound sample? A Yes. ". Q Would you ex p la in what fo llo w r -;on th a t page? What does th a t n o ta tio n in d ic a te you would JAMES MAY r e p o r t in g s e r v ic e ' ------------*---------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 advisee hf.a regard:.:^ tV. jo . ; T r " 1 i l ! 1 .*'* V70U?. " hr*v*1' T b r r r r:ot ) 1i V- rj' ft-li t r>T*0*; *' * r fo*f *)v>- that r*.* ! 0 X*rn h^vicp trou1le reading the sentence. Can you mske- that out? I t begins, "Product given to Rhodes.''* A "Troeurt given to Rhodes to be 1 1 j j ! analy ::ec at ?''i tr~ ,1 O Whet product were you referring to? Was that the Dow product or the cake? / Thr C1** the rrodnet fror tb-: hyno- chlorite trerj.iraior!t th *t1* described ir the three lines starting with M9pry' 9 O.X. So those, notrtionr deal, then, with the hypo treatment problem rather than the Dow dioxin situation? A Yes. Q A few minutes ago you said that your job was to check those Dow samples to see i f you could reproduce their results. Were you able to do that? A Yes, to our satisfaction we were. Q Were your results, then, substantially the same as theirs? A Yes. Q I ' d like to direct your attention now JAMESMAYREPORTINGSERVICE 104  * 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 15 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to document ( vmic.*).- yo*' fl-i-i to b* t.v^ I1 1 i very next And "!*' 1iYc y 1 ?: r. nonfint to r^vioi; i t . a Q j T^ic c* \ p t?r Have you had rzi opportunity to read it ? i A Yes*. Q Ouce a ? ^ in ( is th a t your sign atu re th a t appears in the ''Prepared by11 block? A Yes, it is . Q And does th a t page con tain your hand- w ritin g ? A ye? f ' t -ioe-v . Q And f.t aor-e/'r to be a true t f u l l and accu rate copy o f the document yen crenared on A p ril \I 1 st, ]965? A Yesf it does. Q I t appears her* th a t you* re s t i l l d ealin g with th is cake sample, is that correct? A Yes. Q And i t appears you have two c a t e g o r ie s , u n treated and tr e a te d . What e x a c tly do you mean by that? A The untreated is m a teria l as r e c e iv e d , which is the sodium T-acid which is then put "through the r e st o f the process, that is , it* acidified, f i l fMr. tered and d rie d . That's the standard process and conducted JAM ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SERVICE V 105 1 at K it-}. 'ov- is t'; , wV.--h :N ^ iv st 2 givtv : h '>:?''1 t-'* i:*:* "t ' t\?r. ;;u~ through 3 rO 7 *- '}<*! Jf ;J! *` . *" '.l-ff`.V'\ ?C. 4 U t! the flci'i. 5 0 Doer. rh* s e y ^ n is c document 831432.? th at contrast*?, I suppose, the untreated and the treated 7 sam ples, cost i t e sc rib e samples from the N itro procetss? 8 The o r ig in a l sample th a t was used 9 as th-s 7arc in each c a se , and i t v\?i sample obtained 10 iron- . tr?-. 11 ? A*. This tV *- Wi , the-;:. You 12 Ui sc " ^r ' ' ' f ^'oujTC'V tr ? e'*r*"i '"'7 13 * Vii r* 14 Thr in tr \" rnrrl.er show?, th a t the 15 di-.x-Tr a n a ly sis c?ns out a t 10 part" per m illio n , i s th a t l co rrect? 17 A That' s c o r r e c t. 18 Q And the trea ted cample whichhad gone 19 through th is hypo treatm ent, the purpose o f which in part 20 was to improve the c o lo r , showed d ioxin value a t 18 21 parts per m illio n , is that rig h t? 22 A W ell, the purpose here was to determ ine 23 whether d ioxin reacted v?ith sodium h y p o c h lo rite . A t 24 th is time we are not concerned about th e c o lo r any more. 25 We were working on d io x in . JAMES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE 106 * -- J -J 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1L Q W ell, It*a obvious to me the value went up, but I d o n 't know i f th a t means i t reacted with or d id n 't re a ct w ith i t . What was your co n clu sio n on 'i i ' the basis of that test? A W ell, my co n clu sio n was th a t d io x in S l i was not described by the h y p o c h lo r ite , th a t th ere may j have been an a n a ly t ic a l problem somewhere in the con duction o f the a n a ly tic a l method. I t 's .q u it e p o ssib le j I th a t m a teria ls th at g iv e a response a t the same time a s d io x in were formed and co n trib u ted to the h igher number, to th e 18 parts per m illio n , and opposed to the 10 In the untreated sample. There was no way for us j i | i1 1 i to determ ine e x a c tly whether i t was v a r i a b il it y in j method or whether th ere was a c t u a lly som ething e l s e present that gave a response th a t would look lik e d io x in . Q So you c o u ld n 't d e f i n i t i v e l y say th a t th is hypo treatm ent threw o f f d io x in , i f you w i l l , or i f it didn't? A No, At the time a n a ly tic a l methodology was not a t the h ig h e st s t a t e o f development th a t we would be a b le to be e n t ir e ly sure o f the s p e c i f i c i t y o f the method, whether i t ' s analyzing d ioxin and nothing e l s e but d io x in . That methodology was n o t advanced enough a t th a t sta g e to be a b le to make th a t kind o f d eterm in ation. Q But you were looking fo r 2 ,3 ,7 ,8 - JAMES MAY R E PO R TIN G S ER VIC E 107 1 t e t r a c h l o r o d ib e n so - pa r a - d iox in ? 2 A That?;; the one we were lo o king f o r . 3 Q I*d lik e to d ire c t your a tte n tio n 4 to 8314327. Take a moment and look a t t h a t . 5 A Yes. , \ | 6 Q Anti i s t h i s docum ent i n y o u r h a n d w r it i n g ? ; i 7 A Yes, i t i s . 8 Q And you sig n e d i t in the "P re p ared by" 9 box? 10 A Yes. n Q And i t f s a tr u e , f u ll and accurate 12 copy o f the document t h a t you w r o t e , is i t n o t? i t i i1 , ii j 13 A I t would a p p e a r so. 14 Q I n o t i c e h e r e you have" A n a l , " which 15 I assume i s f o r , "A nalysis o f c h l o r a c n e g e n ," i s t h a t what 16 t h a t reads? 17 A T h a t 1s c o r r e c t . 18 Q So in 1965 you w ere a w a r e o f t h e 19 c h l o r a c n e g e n ic p r o d u c t s o f t e t r a c h l o r o d i b e n z o - p a r a - d i o x in ? 20 A Yes. 21 Q I t says h e r e , " 3 /1 6 /6 5 to G a l b r a i t h 22 f o r s i n g l e CHC;.. 23 A CL. 24 Q CHCL. Who is G albraith? 25 A G albraith was an a n a ly t i c a l laboratory JAMES MAY R E P O R TIN G SERVICE 108 Q And whs t wa.7 i t cen t to ht.-: for an alyze j 2 for? j | 3 A V e il, we se n t the how sample to Galbraith' i 4 to de terrain-r the. e l ernenr nr compound, the chlorohydrogen ch lorin e < 5 and we compared thoseto what the t h e o r e t ic a l q u a n titie s | i should be. j j 7 Q That wa-s a fu rth er check on th e Dow | 8 information? I t 9 A Yes. Again, th a t's a rigorous iden 10 t i f i c a t i o n , but anothers te p . ; i f 11 Q Did you p erso n a lly send th a t sample I 12 to G albraith? 13 A I don11 r e c a 11. U Q Would you r e c a ll whether G albraith 15 was ad vised o f the ch lo ra cn eg en ic p ro p ertie s o f TCDD? i T A A gain, I'm not e n t ir e ly c e r t a in , but j 17 I would c e r t a in ly ex p ect th a t they would have been. 18 Q I'd lik e to d ir e c t your a t te n tio n to 19 N itro m icrofilm #8314542. 20 A O.K. 21 Q Would you p le a se review th a t document. 22 A O.K. t 23 Q And, once a g a in , 1bt h is a~ document 24 in your handw riting? 25 A Yes, i t i s . JA M ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E 109 1 Q A:-r l ifchat yc-vt sig n a tu re in the 2 "Prepsred by" box? i 3 / Yes , i t ir- . ]lt iI 4 Q And i s i t a tru e, f u l l end a ccu ra te I I 5 copy o f the document th a t you prepared? iI A It appears to be. ii! 7 Q the lower lefthand corner o f that 8 block o f fig u r es i t appears to read, r e s u lt s , or an 9 a b b r ev ia tio n fo r the word r e s u lt s , 400 parts per m il i i 10 lio n TDD. Is th a t accurate? 11 A Ko. I t 's r e sid u e . j 12 Q Wha t is the s ig n ific a n c e o f thar? j 13 A This is ar. experiment th a t d e sc r ib e s i 14 some o f the work th a t we d iscu ssed e a r lie r which is in j 15 the handwritten r e p o r t. j 16 Q The handwritten report you' re r e fe r r in g 17 to i s document #344? 18 A Yes. I b e lie v e th a t 8343312 is some 19 data th a tf s part o f the handwritten rep o rt. 20 Q And i t says r e sid u e , 400 parts per 21 m illio n TDD, what does th a t moan, what is the resid u e? 22 A That's the m aterial l e f t a fte r d is 23 t i l l a t i o n o f the tr ic h lo ro phenol. So you f i r s t a c i d if y 24 the sadLum trich lo ro p h en a te and th a t perm its one to d i s t i l l 25 the p h en ol, and the m a te ria l th a t was l e f t behind a f t e r JA M ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE 111  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Ij th a t d i s t i l l a t i o n v\?: s.rv.y--- fo r ?"D, and th a t's c a lle d a res id tie. " Vhec ha 'pens: to tV- res id u -". > ! ii 1 A I don't r e c a ll. 0 J u st out o f c u r io s it y , how d id you a l l handle laboratory waste? !1 I ! j A hard on: j q In your lab oratory what did you do j w ith the waste? A There was, as I r e c a l l , there was a to x ic l a n d f i l l a t the tics.1 where to x ic wastes were se n t. q Where wa s tha t ? i i! j i j j ! /. I d o n 't knot-\ 0 Va.s i t here in S t, L ou is, M issouri? j i j A I d o n 't know. I f you had m a teria ls th a t were t o x ic , they should be packaged and put in a lo c a tio n where they were picked up and taken to a to x ic lan d fill. Q And those ^ e t e s from your d io x in ex- p erim ents, you considered th a t to x ic? A Yes. Almost any chem ical th a t we worked w ith we considered to x ic u n le ss proved o th erw ise. Q Speed i t up a l i t t l e b i t , what I'd lik e to do now i s to take document 352 and review each page and confirm th a t you did indeed author each document JAM ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE V 111 1 th a t c oiapr i s t h a t :\y.h4 :!1. 2 A Ve* . 3 c ! cl. ' 7<ci><- o f I-vh I t j 377 4 cont-n i n b your he rdvr i t in g? 5 / That's correct, 6 0 And your s i g n a t u r e ? 7 Tfcr i:1:* c o r r e c t , 8 V Anc ec-ch t a : ' every page i s a true* 9 f u l l and a e c u c a ta copy o f the. documents t h a t you prepared? 10 A Appears t o be, 11 M7. I C W : "1- ' *'it> t h ; ^ OPC-? 12 hi'. CKAn~: 'V-'. 13 0 :'?y Mr. TM l i k e to hind 14 you now wha t 1s b aen nn rk e -7 ExM b t 75 7 (MonFa rvi:r. A~7 5 85, 15 e t e l ) , which la a n o th e r s e r i e s o f l a b o r a t o r y reportsl w ith th e l e t t e r h e a d Monsanto Chetiic*' Company, I ' d l i k e 17 you to tak e a m inute and review th a f i r s t page o f those 18 e x h i b i t s and n o te t h a t I'm c e n te r in g a copy to Mr, Love. 19 A 0 . K. 20 Q Now, do you r e c o g n i z e t h a t document? 21 A Mo, I d o n ' t rec o g n iz e i t , a l t h o u g h , 22 I recognize the au th o r, s u b je c t n u t t e r . 23 Q And who was th a a u th o r? 24 A A, J . Burns, 25 Q And are you fa m ilia r w ith h is handwriting!? JAMES MAY R E PO R TIN G SERVICE 1V 2 And you recogn ize th at as h is signature? 3 ' -V.. 4 Anr v.'sre- yo v b Li s u p e r v i s o r ? 5 A Y e t . Well, 1 s t me take th a t b a c k . Y e s, I. t h i n k t h a t he was r e p o r t i n g to me on an in terim 7 b a s is . I va- not a su p e rv iso r a t the tim e, but he was 8 aftig n -M to- or th i c u r a t i o n o f t h is p r o j e c t . 9 Ir, .e c o u r s e o l him r e p o r t i n g t o 10 you on a t i n t e r i m b & iia f o i t h i s p r o je c t, d i d you b e 11 come f a m i l i a r w i t h M 3 h i nw r i t i n g a n d h i s n o t a t i o n s ' . 12 V* - 13 Q And does t h is f i r s t document appear 14 to be h is ha ndwr i t i n g , h i r neta t ion ' 15 A I i appears so . l Q You mentioned th a t he was rep o rtin g 17 to you or? an interim b asis ir. the course o f a p r o je c t. 18 Vast wa$ th at p roject? 19 A W ell, th a t was a long time a g e . I 20 don't r e c a ll e x a c tly in weeks w ith how many th in gs we 21 worked to g eth er. C ertain ly he did souc o f the e a r ly 22 a n a ly sis o f 2 ,4 f5-T samples. 23 Q W ell, i t sounds as i f you had a s p e c if ic 24 p ro ject in mind, Was there a p ro je c t you worked w ith 25 him on regarding 2 ,4 ,5 -T a n a ly sis? JAMES MAY R EPO R TIN G SER VIC E  1 ^2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A '-C Lv/-, X reus.!., h:; did th? a n a ly ses for another stjd y tr** X did on reaction timer o f prepaying 0 And ./e hove j o t tan se v e r a l stu d ie s in to the record h ere. Is th is a stud y we have d iscu ssed already? i-.C, Villat was the nature o f t h is study? / I t vsis a study o f the r e a c tio n con d i- tio n s end r e a c tio n v a r ia b le s th a t ware im portant in the rmnu fac ture , to get the :*.or:t ec ono^-ics. 1 proc es ? foz ? , 1?, 5 -T . C- When up? th is f-ertLcular study? A I S e lie v o , th a t wa? in '6 4 . 0 And what p a r tic u la r v a r ia b le s wc-.rc you in terested in in tiiat p a rticu la r study? A Reaction tiiae, addition time, reactant v a r ia b le s , tem perature, pH, water co n cen tra tio n . Q Did you con centrate - - MR. LOVE; Excuse me. Have 50u fin ish ed your answer? A Yes. Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Did you co n cen trate on any p a r tic u la r v a ria b le ? _ A No. . / .ua~ Q In 1964 when you w e re d o i n g t h i s s t u d y * JAM ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E K 1 n< ware you in te r e ste d in or look in g for t o x ic o lo g ic a l problems with * Mo, Q In 19G4- when yon performed t h is stud y, were you aware o f the e x is te n c e o f te tr a le v e l d io xin s? A I nay have heard o f them by than. Probably hsd. C Cut were te tr a le v e l d io x in s to you o f in te r e st in performing that study? A Vo, 3 As i: the other s t u d ie s , did you r e view the liter a tu re o f 2 ,4 ,5 - ? i:1 the -. rjrse o f a n a lyzin g the 2,4,5-T process? A Yes. Process lite r a tu r e , rig h t. Q Were, you having co lo r problems w ith the 2 ,4 ,5-T in 1954? A Yes, Let me q u a lify th a t, I d o n 't r e c a ll e x a c tly . I think c o lo r was a co n sta n t problem th at we had w hile we were m anufacturing 2 , 4 , 5-T. I t was not something th a t was always under stu d y, Q But in the 2 ,4 ,5 - ? process Monsanto experienced a continuing problem w ith color? A Yeah. Customer com p lain ts, I understand. That was the main cause o f custom er com p la in ts, Q Was th is c o lo r problem ever resolved? JA M ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E ' 1 A I dor* f think so , not e n t ir e ly . 2 1 tb inb 5 o^ --\aVi^p 7 r* j g t 1 7y re* 3 so lv ed ?.od wr * rr cb sb lv ""ore m to th i customer 4 than c o lo r , r*r . 5 0 Did i t ever inn rove? 6 A S o lid s co n ten t improved. 9 7 0 What I'm g e t t in g a t is t h i s , i t 8 seems to me the? document? j u s t ta lk about c o lo r prob- 9 lem s. c o lo r problem s, c o lo r problems, I understand now 10 you di-in*t r e so lv e i t . Did i t ever even g e t b ette r? 11 a Yeah. 12 o '`Then dJ'-' i t r t r r t better? 13 a T d on 't res l l v ic ov7. 14 9 Hot tone did Bums work under your 15 d ir e c tio n on t h is 1964 st*r*v? 16 A I d o n 't r e c a l l . Probably th e b e tte r 17 p a rt o f the yea r, s i x months to a year. 18 Q Do you r e c a l l i f Mr. Burns ever had 19 r e s p o n s ib ilit y fo r a n a ly zin g sa u r ie s fo r d ioxin ? 20 A I b e lie v e he d id , yeah. 21 Q Do you r e c a l l when he had th a t respon22 s i b i l i t y ? 23 A No. In f a c t , I'm n o t even sure about 24 th a t. I was J u st look in g a t the d a te s, I d o.*nt''tkn- ow 25 whether he analyzed dioxin or n o t. I think he did. JA M ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SERVICE i 116 . s ' 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 -*17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ! Q Ho*: was i t d e c i d e d w h e t h e r you analysed dioxir or n o t1 ME. LOVE t Yen* *"r ?Viri a ^ o r t a n a n aly sis for dioxin or an an aly sis o f dioxin? MR. SKA70S: F o r . }. It: w hich p a r t i c u l a r s a m p le s ? I f th e t h r u r f o f the* p ro rrn :? '.'as t o f i n d o u t hov? much d i o x i n was there. , th e - the dec is Ion was made, t h a t war the th ru s t of the r-rngrn". X d o n 't o n tiro Ir understand th e q u e s t i o n . 7 yunsr.-. ^ (?v ' f"` f ?*--?' T*.~^ i r.jn c ^ *7 h e r e a t some p o i n t 5 1 m a n r 1 yre-~ d i o r r i r *>nd n t noma p o i n t you a n a ly z e d f o r d i o x i n , a t some p o i n ts Mr. Burns a n a l y z e d f o r d i o x i n . How was i t d e r i d e d who d i d w h a t? A Oh, I b e lie v e the sequence t h e r e , a n d , a g a i n , I c o u ld be a M t t l e o f f on t h i s b e c a u s e t h i s i s i n t h e dim d i s t a n t p a s t , b u t whar. we f i r s t g o t t h e sam ple, an d th e m ethod, T worked on i t m y n e lf. I w a n te d t o s e e ho*? i t worked a n d I vt.te r e s p o n s i b l e . I b e lie v e t h a t s h o r t l y a f t e r t h a t Mr. Burns a n aly zed fo r samples and I b eliev e th a t he tra n s fe rre d to an o th er o r g a n i z a t i o n i n M onsanto a t some p o i n t i n 965' o r s o a n d Mr. Sims then took h is p lac e. ** Q I*d lik e to get back for Ju st a second JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SERVICE V 117 to your a n a ly s is , -Jho OU you report your fin d in g s to tHii t" tb? '"Wr* i t --.* -* p">* r*1rtyv - ***e /* th_r*" 't c y tf-^h eo? ^ & I th in '-, Sharp. Iii Q v' i A you hrk? th a t rep o rt in w ritin g ? Z fV'7%*t r e c a l l , " ^ould you hay*: trade i t in w ritin g ? j * let* * s e c , I 'n try in g to remember i f i wo tnf!'io we?,*\v report" sit th c t time!. 7 c e r t a in ly would i T^ft^o w~y~aa it- -in e it '*07>ort^ yns, 7'?^7 -.'V' td"**1 reports. When non rrt?^'0 th^^p- or o,w?r whit nsriod o f tiroe$ how rnrnv yerr A That1? 'onethine t h a t 's been going on a-i ,?ong a" T cm remember s in c e the Ag D iv isio n was formed and even nrior to th a t in th^ Organic D iv is io n . X thin): e s s e n tia lly every chemist creanrer a monthly SU=3FtF*v*v . 1 0 And have you se e ' in anv o f the documents th a t I have given you thus fa r the form o f the monthly sunnery? * A No. j Q Was a monthly summary d if f e r e n t from a progress report? j JAMES MAY R E PO R TIN G SERVICE report? Q And was i t d iff e r e n t from a f i n a l j A Yes. Q And you have been working w ith Monsant I think you s a id , sin ce 1940 - - A --'8 . Q Since th at time tothe present date has i t been a corporate p o lic y o f Monsanto th at th ese monthly reports were prepared? A Ko, i t ' s not a corporate p o lic y , don't b elieve. 0 ' V'e l l , have you observed i t to be the p ra ctice th at these monthly reports were prepared? A Yes. Monthlyrep o rt, you must under stan d , is a working - - not a working document - - a sta tu s document. I t does not report the r e s u lts of fin ish e d p r o je c ts , c o n c lu sio n s, wrapped up packages. It* s what you have done. I t ' s a way fo r you r.b oss to see that you have been working during th a t month. "What did you do during the month? 1 did t h i s , th is and t h i s . You don1t n e c e s s a r ily put co n clu sio n s and f i n a l r e s u lt s in i t . Q What about the w eekly r e p o r ts,-w h a t's the purpose o f th at document? JAMES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE 1 A think we csr. probably d isp en se w ith 2 that becauss I don't b^lievu vc: had w eekly rep o rts back3 in the '6 0 's . 4 fr- Or the 15 0 's or the *40*5? 5 A. No. 6 Q but you had them in the '7 0 's ? 7 lr. .he *SO 's, y es. 8 v; '/her. did the? b eg in , approxim ately? 9 A Oh, I d o n 't know. I'd say in the 10 e a r ly '7 0 's . Agr.it, it depends upon what l e v e l one i s . n Even now not everyone w r ite s a weekly r e p o r t, but I must 12 Q What le v e l is th a t, the h igh er up? 13 A The higher you get the l e s s rep orts 14 you have to w r ite . 15 Q And I h aven 'tshown youanyth in g th a t 16 resem bles a weekly r e p o r t, have I? 17 A No. 18 Q I'd lik e to return for a second again 19 to your laboratory records that you have id e n t if ie d as 20 E xh ib it 352, and I ' l l return then to you i f you'd lik e 21 to review that document. Vila t I want to know is who 22 would have seen these lab rep orts a s id e , o f co u rse, from 23 y o u rself? 24 A W ell, the o n ly p e r s o n who w o u ldhave 25 n e c e s s a r ily seen t t e e is the p e r s o n who s i g n s t h e b l o c k JAMES MAY R E P O R TIN G SERVICE 1 down in the lower righthand, s nc. I notice there is n 't 2 any s ig n a tu r e on nsmy of. thasi.;. 3 Q Was i t your p r a c t i c e to have your 4 supervisor review these documents? 5 A Yes. Q Would you c h a r a c t e r i z e t h i s , th e n , 7 as a person:'.! workoooK, i f you w ill? 8 A es. 9 Q Does Monsanto have any w r i tte n p o l i c i e s 10 or procedures re g a rd in g th e s e la b o ra to ry books? n A Yes. 12 G And do th o se p ro ced u res provide f o r 13 what happen? to th e n when y o u 're f in i s h e d w ith them? 14 A Ye.?. 15 Q And wher. happens to them? 16 A They a r e m icrofilm ed and r e t a i n e d , I 17 th i n k , i n d e f i n i t e l y . 18 Q How long do you keep one of th e s e n o t e 19 books in your p e r s o n a l p o s s e s s io n ? 20 A We' l , I t h i n k t h e r e 's a l s o ap o lic y 21 w ith re g a rd to t h a t . The l i b r a r y ta k e s c a re o f the 22 m icrofilm ing and th ey c a l l you and sa y , we'd lik e to 23 have notebook such and such number. T h a t 's . "u s u a l l y 24 when the notebook i s a couple o f y e a rs o l d , a s I . r e c a l l . 25 See, many people w i l l ta k e many months to f i l l a notebook. JAM ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E * t "1 1 Others might tel''.* rr- ' I f . 2 '-.~rvv ri-e DV'ii do you keep in 3 the Lur?:e of you r wor!{ i: The re? ep.rch la bora t o r y ? 4 You mean b e s id e s the one we mentioned 5 before? 6 ie e , s i r . Aride from the lab o rato ry 7 notebooks tiaU you have been r e f e r r i n g t o h e re on s e v e r a l 8 occas ions. 9 ~T;0 l a b o r a t o r y notebook, the pro g ress 10 r e p o r t s , the Chi-' r e p o r t s , p ro ces s r e p o r t s ; . Those a r e 11 the docjiDrn" t h a t -'re r e t a i n e d , ` f a r as X it*1017. 12 * Ir-. th e re r-oiM: ki.%c: of a prin to ut: 13 from the gar chrom atogr?n \ V 14 A Yer- . 15 ^ And v'h/; (- h&poenp to t h a t p r i n t o u t ' 16 A F r e q u e n t l y i t ' s probably thrown away. 17 Often i t ' s s t o r e d w ith the notebook i f i t ' s c o n s id ered 18 to be worthy o f r e t e n t i o n , I guess. 19 Q That would depend1 on the i n d i v i d u a l 20 opera t o r s ? 21 A Yeah. ! 22 Q I* d l i k e to r e f e r you t o docum ent 23 28314285 i n E x h i b i t 353, w h ic h i s t h e B urns d o c u m e n ts . 24 A Y e s. 25 Q Have you had a n o p p o r t u n i t y t o r e a d i t ? JA M ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E 12; ` ----------*----------1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 'V: ' . : Tb'r 7 ~ o f t:h !, , \':l\ ic k a p p e a r s to be aj'O t.her in a s e r i e s o f la>- r e p o r t , r e a d s , ,:2 ,i;.,5 -T , C h l c i a c n e S t u d i e s f 11 - f t h a t c o r r e c t ? A Ye - . ^ I iv t wer-' th* se c h lo ra c n e s tu d ie s ? Ts t'liif- nr* "hr.* :-t*L-:y o r x<- it; one o f th e s e v e r a l t h a t we ha vn'- I '*ed a s o : 7 I:1: * 3. \y jt.iv? \ y i 1-' o f TTY, c t o x i n . f ^ i : \* t in r e f e r e n c e , t o th e b e s t o f y o u r /.not ;.'.' to . k ite of ongoing study or report:' 1 d o n 't -.ve^r.iy understand the q u estio n , but i t s ' . - r p l y reporting the analyser, of d iffe re n t samples fo r d io x in . '.-.'e l l , v h a : I 'm a s k i n g i s i t s a y s a t the to p , "C hloracne S tu d ie s ," and I'm a sk in g do you know i f t h a t ' s r e l a t e d t o a p a r t i c u l a r g r o u t o f s t u d i e s , end i f s o , wV^at, so o r ? A V e i l , 1 d o n ' t know how e l s e t o a n sw e r i t . This i? sim ply r e p o r tin g a n a l y t i c a l r e s u l t s on d io x in . I th in k what he meant by chloracne is a n a ly s is of the chloracne genic m aterial 2 ,3 ,7 ,8 tetra th lo ro d ib e n z o - para-dioxin. Q In the course o f your work w ith the JA M E S MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E V 123 ' I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 i 25 A g r ic u ltu r a l k esea ici laboratory bid you. a i l conduit toxic ologicc 1 studies regarding i'ioxh:7 A H o . X r 1. our r- iitarc? ls.b rc s`s-. V--p r p A No. We did not ever have a to x ic o lo g y lab. ^ \!i\y would th is lab rep ort say chloracne stu d ies; Mx. LOVZ: I 'm going to o b je c t. I t ' s been askee se v e r a l times ir: se v e r a l d iff e r e n t vnyc wit!: regard to a document that has not been id e n tifie d as having been prepared by the w itn e ss. I t see.z? to toe h e ' s answered your q uestion each tim e, but I would ask h is i f one more tin e he can answer your q u estion , p lease do so . A I b eliev e that the reason i t says chloracne stu d ie s is a means o f d esc rib in g th e s is ly s i s o f the d io x in m aterials that was b eliev ed to be c h lo r - acnegenic. Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Was th is a t the period o f time when Mr. Burns was working under your d ir e c tio n ? A Yes. r . A .`- ' . . . .. / *. ' -* I mean, a g a in , I b e lie v e so . JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SERVICE S 124 1 ? ' ' I ir.Ci IO V;_f r..c to the sm a ll par 2 thp.t cpT.tprt I.:, Ch-' -i :V ' t the *-y-*.V0**- 1. ha 3 .-jb-?rs . Toare is an a Ih.v-M i-*_ion the- r e , CIA1 4 V;hat*{? t h a t stan d for'* 5 A As I r e c a l l , Chat was A r t i e Burns' abbreviation for dioxin. 7 H: . .OVL; 1'iti going to o b j e c t to 8 r.'ne form of the q u e s tio n because y o u 're 9 as k in g this- w itn e s s tD s p e c u la te upon 10 a t; bore v ip. Cion u>e c by a no the r person 11 in a do earner. L: v?hic'i he i t n in d ic a t e :' ho 12 knows n o th in g '>:*:i V. 13 A I knew a t one tIrv-., b u t I d o n ' t r e c a l l 14 what now t h a t was. 15 Q (Fy Mr. Skaggs) So r a t h e r than being 16 a term o f a r t or sta n d a rd a b b r e v i a t i o n , i t was Mr. Burns' 17 sh o rth an d ? 18 A T h a t's r i g h t . .Of c o u r s e , any TCDD is 19 somebody's a b b r e v i a t i o n f o r som ething. 20 Q What is th a t? 21 A I d o n ' t r e c a l l what t h a t i s . 22 Q CLAC is one you d o n 't r e c a l l the 23 a b b r e v i a tio n fo r? 24 tA Yes. \1 ** * . . 25 Q What is the one on the l e f t ? JAMES MAY R E PO R TIN G SERVICE * * 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I .- h r>tb rp -jiii -m . Tha 11 a che miea 1 tha t was used i? ?*:?ii--.Vrd to -iuy d*i/-'y ` - a noun c o f d io x in . V Can you go on .. "i *.Me more about th a t. T hat's a nev word for me. Wlv*t c*id i t rep resen t? A A standard is a term which gives a response on the a n a ly tic a l method th a t you 're u sin g , so a t some p oin t in rime when you're running a chroma t o - gracu enthracuinone p resen ts a peak and one can u se , i f one icnovs e x a c tly how much anthraquinone i s there and v?ha f: i t s r e la tiv e response is to other mate r i a l s , then one can use- that in response to cc- leu la ts how much o the other mater is 1 is p resen t. ~ 'sr. that a standard p r a c tic e or was i t an a lte r n a tiv e means o f analyst*, or what e x a c tly ? Did you always use thi<; anthraquinone or were there other methods ? A There were other methods stu d ie d . Q Were some methods more p r e fe r r a b le than others? A Yes, Q And how does anthraquinone f a l l in to that spectrum? A I don't r e c a ll. - ' - ~ O'.> _ Q Do you happen to' ;r***e a l*'lf:.iI f freq u en tly used or o cca sio n a lly used? ---4^* ny? JAMES MAY R EPO R TIN G SER VIC E * v 126 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 * 14 15 .1 6 ' -17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 q u ione J*?':-: -p^a'.'Lig now o ant:ira SICA.GG" : ^ I don't k n w , I t was in v e s tig a te d . Whether i t was adopted and used ro u tin e ly * I d o n 't r e c a ll, Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Do you happen to know where the sample*., ho referred to there came from? /. A gain, i t looks lik e -we have the 39pound sample tlia U we referred to e a r l i e r . Q I'oulc a l l o f the samples in volved in th is run have ,,ome fro~c th is cm-- i.f.r3ple? A N o . J u t t t b r : lo .:- C 0 1 1 . I Do you happ'ri to knov: where the oth ers came from? A 1 can only guess hasec on the i d e n t i f i c a tio n , One says 1961 T. I would guess th a t was a sample o f2 ,4 ,5 -T th at was made in 1961. The oth er two, I wouldn't even hazard a guess.. Q This cake tha t* s rep resen ted in the f in a l group, then, is analyzed SvS having 17.4 p arts per m illion of dioxin, right? A Right. Q This 1961 T th a t you referred t o , th at wo uld be the sample which had 5 .4 p a rts per m illio n , do you happen to know i f that came from N icro? JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E 127 ' ------------------ i -------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 A I would have* to assume i t d id , I don't: know where U p -tt* ronId h*ve come from. 0 Why would you ea^ you have to assume? A T hat's the on ly p la ce we made 2 ,4 ,5 -T . 1 1 0 Is th is one of the samples th at you i used in making your 1965 rep ort which we had e a r lie r id en tifie.? s e P l a i n t i f f - ' E xh ib it #351? I ' l l be happy to fur ni rh a cony to yon. MR. t o v E ; The f i r s t n a rt o f your q u estio n ip - - X d o n 't know which sample you're talking about. q ( F y M r . c kAggs.l Do you understand the quep tion? A I think vou' re r e fe r r in g to the sample on 8314285. q R ight. A The answer is T d o n 't know. Q The 1961 T, you d o n 't know i f th a t was one o f the old samples you had a t N itro th a t you used in making th a t '65 renort? A No, I d o n 't know. Q Would you know what procedure Mr. Burns us ed in 1965 to lo c a te t h is 1961 T sam ple? " A No, I d o n 't. ..Vi:'-'' - - / *>' ' - Q I f you were to want to fin d samples i JA M ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SERVICE V ; 128 1 o f product made some years ago, how would you do I t now? 2 A The name way we did i t then. Go to 3 t he nla nt , ask them i f the v re ta 1ne d a sa mol e s . Qu1te 4 l i k e l y t h a t's how th is one was d isco v ered . 5 Q So what you're t e s t i f y i n g now is what 6 Mr. Burns probably did is c a l l up N itro and a sk i f 7 they had any samples to send him? 8 A E ith er th a t or i s one o f the group o f 9 samples th a t we req u ested . 10 Q On the righthand sid e o f the. page 11 alm ost d ir e c t l y under the date 4 /9 /6 5 and down about 12 f iv e rows on the graph os p e r , can you make out th at 13 n o ta tio n ? 14 A I t says "recheck"? 15 Q No, s i r . Above th a t. l A " 2 ,4 ,5 -T from"? 17 Q R igh t. 18 A T hat's where I thought i t s a id , " 2 ,4 ,5 -T 19 from 39-pound sodium T" som ething. I c a n 't read the 20 la s t part. 21 Q I'd lik e to r e fe r now to document 22 #8314547, which i s about th ree-q u a rters o f the way 23 through P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it 353, continuation of .-it * V ' `( * * r * 24 the lab rep o rts from Mr. Bum s. iM ^ l k e you to^hske a 25 moment when you lo c a te i t to read i t . JA M ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SERVICE A 0 . K. 0 e p a ir. > T s*??. here i t ^ .y s , "C h lo r- acne S tu d ie s ." There n re a couple o f numbers on t h i s document. MR. I^OVE: I d o n 't see where you1r e talking about. Q (By Mr. Skaggs) I ' m r e f e r r i n g to the second lin e down from the d ark d iv id in g l i n e . MR. LOVE: A ll r i g h t . Q (3v Mr. Skaggs) There are a couple o f numbers on here I want to ask you about, ^ ir s t o f a l l , in the upper righthand corner there are two words, "AG: 32727." What's th a t number rep resen t? A AG 32727? Q Yes, <** A Ths t 's the notebook page number. Q To the r ig h t o f Mr. Bums' sig n a tu re in the "Prepared by" block there is another number, which is 2102. What does th a t number r e fe r to? A That's the job number we d iscu ssed e a r lie r . I t was the job number used fo r 2 , 4 , 5-T p rocess stu d ie s. Q I'd lik e you to r e a d , i f you w ould, r;. v . the f i r s t lin e underneath the darkVdiyiding :lin e ' on th is page. JAMES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E 1 1 3c b;,,.K lum ber :?!?, 7/21/65 ftom h itr o 2 SOC'^!lrr' TJ~~ r ViTo rp <-nr- c * - ~o ^ ,y 3 C' h-y.r v.'r; r f; b f r *" 'Pt* * O * L i . lU' 4 p gfl in , vhnn M?". yum ? r$?r ctM^i und^c your 5 ten r-o tary d ir e c tio n or th i* s tu d y ' A I believe so. 7 -3 r hfi t '>a? batch number 636? What wap 8 your yste*? tS-*'*t you unerf In g e ttin g these samples? 9 * -?11, t h i s , I b e lie v e , wa a sam ple, 10 one o f the Ni tr tvnufsc to r i n ? ha tch r,*jisdvar and egtuples , n it, pa r.Tiy 'ibfV1 c"O" t*'*r' , 12 V T" tf'1* 'M'nKt'>* ^V6 <?u:-jr-ip 13 d i f f e r e n t fro th e r*etn|nd -~mple- ~ hat ^ ta lk e d about, 14 a w hile 15 A Ye. l 0 Would that have been taken on 17 the date that*s indicated ther^, J`0.y 21st., 1965? 18 A Y es, 19 Q Were you resp on *ib le for co ord in atin g 20 w ith N itro over the taking o f the s'* samples? 21 A Yes. In the gerse th at I was A r tie 22 f Burns1 su pervisor. I imagine he did t h is . 23 Q How many samples did you take? L et 24 me go about i t th is way sin ce we have been over a l o t 25 o f th is m a teria l. 1*11 summarize to you what my 1- JAMES MAY R E PO R TIN G SERVICE ^n J lindar FUsnd i '.=s is . - * <:-1's \;*orr t , you c e ll i>e i t 1 s fc'ronr. - c - * V ! C U ^ ' - V n i ' i ' i i ' r* "1"'' /;-5 one o f the 3 i"V**--I** ''V* ^rv-T** *;*mn1' f*V.** vo 1 4.-*.* y. rV- 4 r-."). . . ^Lij*^'' l 4 todc I (p 1Oti -f*i t^Vie- ^rt'J"'p rtf thi-fi 5 !"!"0 t i O'1 c t l'd v ? / Y^f . 7 I^-v/nu rerJ th is document and thought 8 ho*e \ *, ** v- -/ 'a*-.ft r.-.;t reeo1 7p0tio n o f the meaning 9 o C *-ji f-iii--.i r*xp ^ *' 10 1 ^ a ' * : - "f p T V>a 1 7 <-- . f j 1 t h o u g h X ^ Cl n **..-jt :*\*~r' *f* .0ti`-^-1r .-t ' * *1 ' y-v*.?'t *t re ers to 12 0 7 P <<f*>"0nh 1 1r* J!v- *--v, 'fT, t > *' V ' ' ' * ' * * * 13 r\ TV1.C/a-1 ri'i TFT* >v-\Q-i ijnnft (r- the 14 labo^ro*- ' n *^<**7f i T r ' r*'*c ^t-1. -{a^ ind review ing 15 th e ie documents enn o j ^ n the co n tex t o f the fig u r es 16 tbs t o^oesiT' on th i ^ i, -ore v >*j to sta te whether 17 t t OT/ C i c nn <ql-if i '.r'--Tt io^ fOX t''"r'~>9 18 >F<. \ * 1*71 i'ofr.o to o b je ct to 19 the form of th* You' re asking 20 the man to giv vr?y ooirvoo ?<? to what 21 another rmn ne.^rt by hi" o*.m shorthand, 22 an abbreviated term fo r something th at 23 appears on a document th a t another person 24 authored. For that reason I o b ject to 2 5 the q u e stio n . I f you can answer i t , JAMES MAY REPO R TIN G SERVICE 1 answer :.t. 2 A App'i.n, T knew rt: on* time, and I be 3 lie v e i t does r e fe r to the dioxin. Svt I'm a l i t t l e 4 confused because in se v era l referen ces there were two 5 se ts o f numbers and one o f them seemed to say CLAC 6 and the other said pnm. I don' t know e x a c tly what 7 ths t meant. I ' d have to study them in more d e t a il to 8 havi I t r 11 back. 9 Q fBy Mr, Skaggs) They have fig u r e s here 10 from, I supnose, they rep resen t samples from A through 11 C, Is th a t c o r r e c t, that those are in d iv id u a l samples? 12 MP. ! n,T.rE : A geir, t o b ject to the 13 form o f the q u estio n . You' re asking the 14 man to answer a f t e r looking a t a document 15 he did not prepare and no foun dation 's been 16 la id whether h e' s ever d iscu ssed w ith the 17 man who prepared i t or anything e l s e . I f 18 you can answer i t , do so, 19 A I b e lie v e these are in d iv id u a l samples 20 taken a t d iffe r e n t times during the batch, 21 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) So when i t says 22 batch'number 636, we a r e n 't ta lk in g about one batch? 23 We are ta lk in g about se v era l? 24 A A pparently, - .;'&>>; - * 25 * ,,*J|`vv *.. il r " Q How would you determine when tSiose JA M ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SERVICE 132 1 p a r t i c u l a r sam ples v;-'alo be c;v:i . 2 r , r -* ' V. *j. * :n:*~ a c tiv e 3 'Thc~' **?:'*" i;'! r*1 t-*7 ' ' "Vi;,-.**, C"4 mfcthoJ.- 4 ^ ? *1-t* * ^ ^ ^ _J* r ^ ^ ^ Your 5 quer Aon1- uri*"le e r "n me. I f i t ' s c le a r to }T'.'ii, you can r.n.r,:-?r i t . 7 A ; ujdcr.itooc1 you to a s k me how woul-- 8 wt when to e sample-'.* 9 (By Mr. fk a g g s ; ?.ig h t, You too^ 10 sam ples a t d i f f e r e n t tin e s in th r bar--::, ho\: m t. who, 11 fo r "h a t m a tte r , ' *h* : rat:; Jos wrr.? ta k en ; 12 A T 'in:', r r .`ee? * ho eeide-i. The 13 in to n t , T bo1i e v e , *.Ja>: t t o 5:- ijt ; 1er th r c;-thou t th e 14 b atch which couJ. 1 he u "?d to p r:5 :`.'e what was happening 15 a t each sta g e o f th e b a tc h , 16 Q L?lc y z\j 5no * N itr? w r itte n d ir e c tio n s 7 to fo llo w when t s h i c ^ the v a rio u s r--i.tr-I ts ? 18 A I d o n 't r s c a l J . 19 Q Doyou r e c a l l v r e th e r you gave them 20 o r a l in s t r u c tio n s on when to take th e re sam ples? 21 A I d o n 't s p e c i f i c a l l y r e c a l l , but I'm 22 su re we must have d isc u sse d i t . 23 Q . Would i t make a s ig n if ic a n t d iffe r e n c e 24 when they were taken? 25 A Within lim its i t would not. JA M ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SERVICE 1 burr s-1 s u p e rv is o r or su p e rv is o r 2 for i* T"i-- r ,t r, - .i, f- * * f'r j-* * *- >(* *r' 3 VOL! l'CV-T1 OC f'.' l*1I'J f - ' V' r' 4 / Vpf 5 ;? In the? course of review in g h is work 6 wouV that* involve r e v i s i n g h is la b oratory notebook? 7 A i.o, not n ece ssa r ily . 8 * :ou;c' it? 9 * Vr> 10 7 vknv! d h* give you w ritten reports? 11 V r f. _ 12 ** V;O'-:- f : r ** **ou*;'he oo.'-vsunics* te v ;ith you 13 in wr i t* np? ',Thr t wrr h i * o11i-ra r~orV p ro d u ct th a t you H WOL'1^ r<?,T*^" 9 15 A Vis wor^ nroduct to uI d have been 16 probably a rrogress rer^rt tha** n ig h t have been j o in t ly 17 w ritten with tne. 18 Q Aside fro c that progress re p o r t, and 19 ve have seen an example o f th a t, would he g iv e you 20 anything e ls e in w riting? 21 A At that tinie I d o n 't think so . We 22 had discuss.ions on a d a ily b a s is , 23 Q I'd lik e to d ir e c t your a t te n t io n to 24 docuraent 48314546, and although the p a ttern h a s n 't a l 25 ways fo llo w ed , I t should be the n ext page in your sta c k . JAM ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SER VIC E W ** f 1 - - i. .* . 2 ' t.'. : ' ' * f!"k ; -imC, 3 p 1 i' 0 . 4 A 0 . T' 5 0 Are v'i; to I d e n t i f y the sampler 6 t h a t a rc d escrib ed on th a t o a-s? 7 A : i y L y number. I don* t know what < 8 the "lumhvrr r r - 1 t;.-. 9 A :. ` vo*j lu:;or i f cho~c r.;i;ibfeL. 10 would r e fe r tv- r s r .;f-r fro: I*,i t re*' n / '' ' l , A :'l \ ' c :y>r' ro tf-r to 12 the noteboV --- t! ** t*l .r 13 page the I d ^ r t i t " o* ' h-' *r `. 14 r` " 'r T I:.--1 ; .-.re t i n t . re 15 are you r e f e r r ir - to o-; th'1 16 k \ - - p 7p ~ ` f. i r - to s atip le th r t 1s 17 id e n tifie d or that* r o tr '-oo1- v r .* . 18 0 T h at'<5 the nv.-dv* *: th a t appears n ex t 19 to "sampl e " a t the to^V 20 A R ig h t. 21 0 The f a c t t h a t i t say& h e re the jo b 22 number on the preceding n a g e , which was 8314547, a s 23 2102, th a t in d ica tes th at both o f th e se d e a it w ith the 24 - same ongoing p iece o f work, i s th a t r i g h t 7 25 A They d e a l w ith 2 , 4 , 5-T in some r e s p e c ts , JAMES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE ' < 1 y jf . 2 3 f o r lari"*!'* 3?72A-h 4 A u v ih T'd b^ve to presume i t *s TCDD 5 because 3t d o e s n 't s ta te so anywhere on h e re , I b e lie v e . 6 1 I t ' s th e sa.^e jo b number. 7 A 21^? ia a job number t h a t 's used f o r 8 o*>] ? r .r 1^? rrr-'i&roh hav in g to do w ith 2 ,4 ,5 - T , w hether 9 i t ' s dio^i* r* nrot'^se stu d y o r w hatever i t 1?, c o lo r 10 and nludo-in--', you ''ir .- , Tr p s i ^ r F th a t th ese would 11 r e f ^ r to ^t /*>vJ ?*;*.v rhe thev wrs done 12 and nor'1 r c s 'i l t s , T tr o >'~i* s . y . t h e r x * o re di-oyio. 13 ri A*id tjh/11 tbocc fig u re s? 14 * Ttiere a r e th re e on th e page, hif? 15 o f tberr ir tJ? n^n, one Is 32 non rn d th e o th e r is 3?. ppm. 16 ?'<. T0V3: You h*?ve any s u b s ta n tiv e 17 -'in s tio o s ab o u t th e answ er to th e l a s t 18 Q u estio n ? 19 - MP.t SiV iW : :-7e71, what T 't d o in g , 20 h is testim o n y is th a t th e sample should be 21 id e n tif ie d on th e boob nags 32724, and I'm 22 now rev iew in g mv documents to se e i f I can 23 lo c a te t h a t page w hich would le a d " me to my 24 follow up q u e s tio n . r1 ':/ - 25 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Would you p lea se r e fe r JAMES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE ^^ to document pagfr '.`.A-l. 9 * *t^ 3 r*. y7 2... r..* *: ~S.~:; ~jn." froji t 4 D2 the 5.r' nt j.tV O^ th A 5 ? 'os 0 5 -A There are- some id e n tific a tio n s a t 6 the top o f the page which apparently d escrib e these 7 s amolei:'. They ?re us the form NE and then a nunfcer. 8 Q ho you recognize th at numbering? 9 / I'm not e n tir e ly p o s it iv e , but 1 b e lie v e 10 t h a t 's a ITit.rc numbering system . 11 r: Are vou famr.lr/r r it h i t enough tv 12 a d v ise us o f thr. r ir n if the numberr anc. le t t e r s 13 th a t make un th ose id e n tify in g nunhert'1 1 4 A Ko, T'm n o t. 15 Q I n otice here a lso that the apparent 16 terra th a t C1AC stands fo r Is chlorr.cne compound. 1 7 A Yeah, CLAC. A.gain, t h a t 's fu rth er 18 evidence th a t i t ' s TCDD. 19 Q I'd lik e you to take a moment, i f 20 you would, and review these documents, looking as we 21 have in the p a st, recogn izin g whether you recogn ize Mr. 22 Bum s' sign atu re and h is handwriting on each o f those p ages7 2 3 A To the b e st o f m y/toowledge, th e se are 24 a l l signed by A rtie Burns. A:`v - . . .V. vV&V*' : ;- 25 Q And you recogn ize h is handwriting on JAMES MAY REPO R TIN G SERVICE 1 1T7 1 each and eve ry cocuiiir.t that. cumprrta.-i. ; la ..til; i s 1 2 Exhibit 3 r : . 3 A 7 cs fi1r h: uii. % ... . : l appears o. 4 I t o hand yon v h a t'e been, 5 marked as P7 s in t if f .- .' 5vhil--it ?54 (Monsanto #004300. 6 through "00', 747), which is a Monsanto Company A gri7 c u ltu r a l . i-isi-oc! report bearing your name as co -au th or. 8 I not-?, the t I'm tender inc a copy to Mr. Love a ls o . 9 I T11 ash yo-j tv tr-h.t a moment tc review th a t ocuiount. 10 . 7-,51. Have you had a.; opportunity to 11 review m i r . t i i f . ' ' f:iM l "54 i 12 A \'es. 13 Q Ard v'erc you in f a c t ti.c author ui 14 th at document? 15 A ie s. 1 6 Q And does th is appear to be a tr u e , 17 f u l l and complete copy o f the document which you authored 18 which is t i t l e d A g r ic u ltu r a l Research report ho. 15C, 19 F in a l. Report on 2 ,4 ,5 -tr ic h lo r o p h c n o i, ?pt5,,mization o f 20 the H ydrolysis o f 1 ,2 ,4 ,5-tetra ch lo ro b en zen e! 21 A I t appears so. 22 Q I'd lik e to d ir e c t your a tte n tio n to 23 the in trodu ction to th is report which appears on page 1. 24 I 'd lik e you to begin a t the in tro d u ctio n and read th at 25 introduction into the record, please. * JAM ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE ' 1 MR. LOVE; A ll fo u r paragraphs o f i t ? 2 MR. SKAGGS: Off th e re c o rd . 3 (Whereupon d is c u s s io n was had o f f 4 the reco rd .) 5 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) I 'd lik e to mark 6 from "A" to "B" and a s k you to read t h a t in to the re c o r d , 7 please. 8 A ( 'v- f i to i b i t . ) 9 Q I 'd lik e to r e f e r you to the second 10 p arag rap h where i t m entions Dr. O e tte l a t B adische. 11 Who was he? 12 A I d o n 't know. 13 Q W ell, do you r e c a l l th e source o f U your sentence th a t he expressed the opinion th at te tr a 15 c h lo ro d ib e n z o -d io x in was th e c h lo ra c n e g e n ic m a te ria l? 16 A I d o n 't r e c a l l where I g o t tlia t in 17 fo rm a tio n . 18 Q Do you r e c a l l th e ev en t which Dr. 19 O e tte l was d e s c rib in g ? 20 MR. LOVE; O b ject to th e form o f th e 21 q u e s tio n . T h e re 's no e v e n t mentioned in 22 t h a t se n te n c e . 23 A I d o n 't know what ev e n t you mean. 24 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) What is your u n d e r25 s ta n d in g o f what D r., th e b a s is o f D r. O e t t e l 's o p in io n ? , JAM ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE 11Q 1 A The b a sis o f h is o p in io n , i f I knew i !I1 2 a t one time I d on 't know any more. He presumably did I I I 3 some t e s t work w ith tetra ch lo ro d ib en zo -p a ra -d io x in 4 and e sta b lish e d th a t i t was a ch loracnegenic m a teria l, j 5 but I d on 't know the d e t a ils o f th a t. Q Are you fa m ilia r w ith Badische? I 7 A Yes. A large m ulti-nation al chemical 8 company headquartered in Germany. 9 Q A side from th a t you have no other 10 r e c o lle c t io n o f Dr. O ettel? i 11 A No. I iiI' 12 Q Now, would you d escrib e for me, p le a se , 13 the program th a t's d escrib ed in the la s t two sen ten ces 14 o f th a t paragraph which was m onitoring various process 15 streams a t the N itro P la n t. 16 A You want me to ex p la in what those 17 sen ten ces mean? 18 Q Y es, s i r . 19 A They mean a t th is timewe had the 20 a n a ly t ic a l method for TCDD and we began to determine 21 where in the process TDD might be p resen t and where 22 i t might be formed and to monitor the product 2 ,4 ,5 -T 23 for TCDD. 24 Q How o fte n did t h e y .t e s t thevarious 25 process streams a t the N itro Plant? JAM ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE i /.n 1 A W all, we we.it through t h is , o f cou rse. 2 The ones th a t I was d ir e c t ly involved w ith are the ones 3 than ;-/e have already d iscu ssed and appeared in one 4 o f the e a r lie r e x h ib its. 5 Q Whan you wrote th is se n te n c e , did you have in mind other te s t in g programa than th ose th a t you 7 described to us e a r lie r ? 8 A 'es. I had in mind the con tinu in g 9 program tha*: was to be done a t N itro . 10 Q And would you d escrib e th a t con tin u in g 11 program, p le a s e , 12 A I cannot because I'm not aware o f 13 e x a c tly what the sampling frequency was. U Q What was your b a sis o f th e statem ent 15 that the an alyzation continued to the date o f th is 16 paper, which was in 1969V 17 A That was my understanding, th a t the 18 N itro P lant would continue to a n a ly ze. X d o n 't know 19 i f i t was on an every-batch b a sis or period b a sis fo r 20 diox i n . 21 Q What was the source o f th a t under22 standing? 23 A X d o n 't r e c a ll24 Q What about the n ex t paragraph where 25 you say in 1967 our M edical Department s ta te d tha JAMES MAY REPO RTING SERVli-c- 1 chloracnegen in the 2,-4,5-T process was indeed TDD, 2 who in the Medical Department sa id that? 3 A I b elie v e th a t was Carl Bowles th a t 4 wrote me a memo to th a t e f f e c t . 5 Q Do you r e c a ll the approximate time o f th a t memo? 7 A 1967, 8 Q Do you r e c a ll the su bstan ce o f th a t 9 memo? 10 A No fu rth er than i t ' s s ta te d h ere, 11 Q You sa id th a t th a top inion led d ir e c t ly 12 to the present work in v e s tig a tin g the chloracnegen in 13 products o f tetrachlorobenzene? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Did i t d ir e c t youto dothat? l A No. 17 Q How did th a t opinion lead d ir e c tly 18 to th a t in v estig atio n ? 19 A X th in k we d iscussed some e a r l i e r 20 e x h ib its th a t X f e l t th ere was a good chance th a t such 21 a study could lead to lower le v e ls o f TDD, and whan the 22 Medical Department sta te d th a t they were convinced th a t 23 th. e ch. loracnegen was TDD, i t seemed 4 lo g ic a l 'e*tei ^p - to 24 see what we could do about i t , '"-.V- 25 Q Did you work w ith th e M edical Department JAMES MAY R EPO R TIN G SER VIC E in your study? A lit w h ic h s t u d y : Q V}ollt :.n year study th a t c o n stitu te d the present work dv- t you described in th is 1969 document. A V'fC l, the M edical Department d id n 't have any input into the d e ta ils o f the research program, i f th at*8 what you' re ask in g. q Did you a d v ise Carl Bowles o f the sta tu s o f your study? A Die I ad vise hixi o f the r e s u lts o f th is s tudy? Q .'id you a n v ise him o f the progress o f it ? A Not or. any ro u tin e b a s is . I nay have d iscu ssed i t w ith h in from fha* to tim e. Q xjhy i t that he wrote h is op in ion l e t t e r to you? A I think th a t's probably fa ctu a l. Probably because he and I had d iscu ssed the su b je c t b e fo r e . Q And would you d escrib e those con versa t io n s ,p le a s e , such as when did you d isc u ss i t , A I don't reca ll. Q Do you r e c a ll how o fte n you d isc u sse d it ? A No, I t was a very sm all number o f t i r e s , lik e , two or th ree . * Q Did you c o n ta c t him? 1 . LDV--: Yith regard to what, whan? 2 ' . ZVA5G: : I'm r e fe r r in g to the 3 conversations thru, he Jur*!; t e s t i f i e d about. 4 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Did Dr. Bowles con5 ta c t you or did you co n ta ct Dr. Bowles f ir s t ? 6 A I don* t r e c a ll . 7 Q were you ab le to n eat your o b je c tiv e 8 to determine the important process variable that in 9 fluenced the form ation o f TDD? 10 A Yes. I think we were f a i r l y s u c c e s s fu l. 11 We w eren 't able to elim in a te TDD, but we were ab le to 12 d escrib e co n d itio n s which vrocld lead to a c o n s is te n t 13 low, what was f e l t to be a la.-: le v e l a t that time. 14 Q In f a c t , th a t co n d itio n was tha hold 15 p erio d , wasn' t it? 16 A No. 17 Q What ware they? 18 A W ell, the most Important v a ria b le 19 turned out to be the r a tio o f methanol to the other 20 r e a c ta n ts , 21 Q Did you ever is s u e an amended p rocess 22 document th a t incorporated your fin d in g s from th is study? 23 A Process document? 24 Q The cookbook. 25 A You mean the plant nnnufacta r in g p ro c e ss? JAMES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE . ,, 1 2 A i'.o. Pc^earch d id not w rite those. 3 0 To yo o r kr.owlcr'r-?-, vror :-. y o u r recom m ends- 4 tio n s from tM ? stu d y e v e r in c o rp o ra te d in to the menus Is 5 that governed the production o f these chem icals in the 6 pis nt ? 7 a Vie11, I think th is i s th e su b ject 8 m atter we covered e a r lie r about were these con d ition s 9 incorporate:' in to th e s ta n d a r d p lan t o p era tio n . The 10 answex1 was no, they were n ot. They were only done 11 during a t e s t period. 12 ^ M is t r e t i e e n v iro n m e n ts 7 h a z a rd s 13 th a t were a sso c ia te d wor'-in g with the 2 ,4 ,5 -7 j 14 department? 15 M7. PVE: Object as to the fo rr. 16 There*6 been no foundation la id as to the 17 e x p e r tise o f th is w itn e ss, knowledge or 18 background in terms o f your d isc u ssio n 19 o f environm ental hazards in the workplace 20 in the manufacturing process o f 2 ,4 ,5 - V . 21 I f you can answer the q u estio n , answer i t . 22 A To my knowledge, the environm ental 23 hazard was the in cid en ce o f chloracx&ft* 24 Q (By H r. Skaggs) To your knowledge, 25 in 1969 was th ere any oth er hazard in volved w ith working JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SERVICE 1 /. S 1 \ 1 1 w ith 2 ,4 ,5 - " o th e r cHi-' ek lo r^.cn ?r 2 i 11 *' * 3 C; 7'ir r t f e r r i . i g to p a f her*:. In i j 4 1 jii j 4 the i'efersn rfts y>n d e s c rib e * memo end the i n i tie Is are 5 IvRU/EFT. V?hr. t doe*- t h a t rysaw'; I t ' s r e fe re n c e number 1 6 unc-rr s e c tio n 5 on page 2. 7 Ki . LCV*S: Off the re c o rd . 8 (Whereupon d is c u s s io n was had o f f 9 the reco rd ./ 10 V, (7 / i_r. Ik ag g s) I ' c lik e to r e f e r 11 you to page 2 unde;.- the r e f e r e n c e s , and vr>uld you road 12 re fp.renca numher 1 f ; 1*rv.a . 13 A "lieur-, September 14, 1555.'' 14 C, Who i t MVU' 15 A M y se lf. 16 k And who is EFT? 17 A. Ed Taake. 18 Q And Hr. Taake is your c o n ta c t a t N itr o , 19 is t h a t c o r r e c t? 20 A That* c o r r e c t . 21 Q Do you have any r e c o l le c tio n o f t h a t 22 memorandum d ated Septem ber 14, 1965? 23 A I b e lie v e t h a t's on* o f the e a r lie r 24 e x h ib its th a t we d isc u sse d . .7- V*.' 25 Q I'm going to hand you w hat's been JAM ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE m #* 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 . 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 markka P l a i n t i f f s 1 E xh ib it f l 1}. 1 arid ?A: i f cha z is the memo you r e fe r r a l t*> in that reference? A Yes. | Q Would you p lea se read the second referen ce under se c tio n 5 on page 2, A "Memo, WRU/VLR, Ju ly 3 , 1968." ^ And, once a g a in , WRU is you? A Yes. S' Who is VLR? A Yern Rhodes. Q And do you r e c a l l th at piece o f corresponds nee ? A Ko, I do n o t. Q Have I shown you th a t p iece o f correspondence in the ea r lie r exhibits? A Not to my knowledge. Q Was th a t about the same time you were having the co n v ersa tio n s w ith Mr, Rhodes regarding the d ioxin problem a t the Monsanto P lant a t Nitro? A Yes. Q Would you read referen ce number 3, p le a s e , under s e c tio n 5 on page 2, A R eference 3 i s , VjShein, Sy MiV find E v etifeev , A.V.n r Q I t 's obviously Russian. ;v^` '1/ V ' >*` *-- 1;' JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SERVICE * 1 /.7 i9* '' k w ? t l \ s / o .A , 1 rc?.a". i t no a y s i N l id you g e t t c. l i b r a *r'j\r* AA- I d o n ' t reca T1-wt o f mon.-va n t o 1s Q Do you read .'.us s la n i A No, I con* t . k Under number A, w ould you p l e a s e read those referen c es. Jra* 'bv o teo o o k p a g e s , AG 7 2 1 0 1 , AG OjO 0 Q You c an re a d th e .y t-' y o u r s e l f j u s t so you know w hat I 1a. g o in g to be a s k i n g you a b o u t. A I 'v e reac them. Q Are those th r la b o ra to ry notebooks we h a v e been d i s c u s s i n g e a r l i e r , i : t h a t w h a t t h a t n a s refe ren c e to? Mr'.. LOVE: I f you know t h e a n s w e r , you can a n s w e r. V?e h av e lo o k e d a t a g r e a t many pages o f d o cum ents, w h e th e r th o s e , s p e c i f i c pages a r e ones we have lo o k ed a t o r n o t, th a t would be d i f f i c u l t to a s c e r ta in , MR. SKAGGS: I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t , b u t I'm a s k in g him i f t h a t 's standard n o ta tio n fo r the l a b o r a t o r y notebook we d isc u sse d e a r lie r . _ MR, LOVE; That was n ot your q u estion JAMES MAY R EPO R TIN G SER VIC E 1 j j i1 1 1 *'eforo. | | 2 ' i ' r* .at ioc "or ?/iborc tory | 3 notebook.'. j i 4 '5 ^ y >/r . Sy.3 rg!-:} *"*0 you r e c a ll those 5 notebook pages the t you c i t e there as referen ces? 6 A h:o. 7 q could you t e l l ua what kind o f m a teria l 8 fro?_ a notebook you -sight be c i t in g in preparing th is 1 9 10 A '{of,, The research r e s u lt s , experimeu- n to?'1 ,3 w e ll f r a n a ly tics? re la ted to th is p r o je c t. j 12 1 1 ' li"t you to read, i f you would, i j 13 fig u r e ? or p yr- f., You dor-1f hew to read i t in to 14 the record, but far*15a ri:rs you rself with i t so I can 15 ask you some q uestions about i t . 16 A 0 . K. 17 Q Did th at figu re 2 summarize your 18 findings here regarding the correlation between hold 19 hour: and the production o f TCDD or TT>1*7 20 A I ' m so rry , but I have to read more 21 to know e x a c tly what these rep resen t. 22 Q W ell, read whatever you need t o . _- ^ Vi ` 2 3 A C.K. Figure 2 compares two d if f e r e n t 2 4 laboratory runs, run 19 and run 32. Run 19 w era,con d i- 25 tion s sim ila r to those cu rr en tly used a t N itro and run 32 JAMES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE improve?- cori. d i t ioni: . \ - 1i ir ^ ^ -I r 1.11 Z rtf.Ir' hour 2. ;H i* py th c- 'iff; c1r 9nc 6 hc* I I >o hour 3 be.tween tue cond.tionr used on run 15 in the Laboratory and in the con d itions used in Monsanto a t N itro? ^ i*u>. d iffe r e n c e s were th a t under the N itre simulate^. con d ition s we had ab out 5% TCA and undo,- the r*.'search con:-it*oRs we had n ea rly 0 TCA a f t e r three hours, under L itro con d iti onr -?e had about 23 jpprt. of TZ\. , and un-dor the .research eoneiti^n^ vo had so ^ 5,- where aro mu 5 to 7 . i Q\ Lav;.f ' d t i v?r rV- *. :r. r c e n ta los - 21 ^ represented? i A That*!, the percent o f tr ic h lo r o a r .ie o le , t i which is an interm ediate in the h y d ro ly sis o f t e t r a - ! i chlorobenzene. , Q And i t ' s the lower cu rve, is th a t i r ig h t , or i t ends up lower? \ i A That's the one. th a t's d ecr ea sin g , y e s. Q Look a t the fig u r e s on ta b le 3, Wha|t do those represent? A Those are a rep resen tation " o f th e , w e ll, the Y's are the dependent variables th a t were measured and the X's are the independent v a r ia b le s , in JAMES MAY R E PO R TIN G SERVICE 1[ j 1 other words, the things that were con trolled in the ! 11 2 lah^r-'tr'T" . Thir ir ~~ tp H nf t:be e f f e c t o f j 3 the? indevendent vari^klor on th<" thiry? we were i 4 nep"vrio". T"?, for inptpnro, p.s w ell a ? the e f f e c t 5 o f the severe o f those v a ria b les and the e f f e c t o f in terseti'"1'' between the v a r ia b le s. The XI t X2 cro ss 7 product tern: are measures o f the sy n erg istic e f f e c t o f 8 two vr r it b1e r . 9 * *>? tb ir T^arurer^-cnt , then, how do 10 you read the table? ir? the r ig n iflc a n c e o f the i 11 fact, that con stan t in v 7 1r 3.5377 and in Y2 is 1.6641? j I 12 what doer th^t near7 i 13 ii / Wr1! , those arc *imr1v thr* c o e f f ic ie n t s i 14 and R cu rtio n er pnd i f one wanted to wr^te out the e n tir e 15 equation to g et a y ie ld , one would spy 3.5371 plus 16 .53147 XI plut .062191 cekes 2, ninv^. .57546 makes 3 17 end ro on, represents the y ie ld o f Y l. I d o n 't remember 18 how X d efin ed Y l. 19 Q This s y n e r g istic e f f e c t th a t you talked 20 about, i s th a t the r e la tio n s h ip between TCA and TDD? 21 A No. 22 Q What did you mean by that? 23 A I meant the in terra la tio n .h e tween 24 v a r ia b le s 1 and 2 , l ik e , XI and X2 and, a g a in , d o n 't 25 " . t. V "5':** r e c a ll what XI i s . I f I t was temperature and a d d itio n - JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 151 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 . 15 l 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 tim e, i t would be a -- in o th e r words, the in te ra c tio n in the f in a l equation between tem perature and ad d itio n tim e. MR. SKAGGS; O ff the re c o rd . (Whereupon d is c u s s io n was had o f f the r e c o r d .) Q (By Mr. Skaggs) -Would you p lea se read the m aterial between !,A" on page 7 and "B" on page 8 to the jury. A r ?f ?.r to Zy.h ib 11 . ) Q A gain, h ere, th is is recapping some thin gs we have done e a r lie r . These were samples th a t you described e a r lie r as being the third or fourth sam ples th a t you took in 1965, is th a t co rrect? A No. T otal o f 13 batches in three d if f e r e n t programs sin ce 1965, s ta r tin g in '6 5 . Q And those were the three programs th a t you were resp o n sib le for and that you described e a r lie r ? A Three programs I d iscu ssed e a r l i e r , y es. Q And, a g a in , we d iscu ssed e a r lie r the time that the hold period was extended for a period o f tim e. Is that the 5.5 hours th a t's r e fle c te d here? JAMES MAY R E PO R TIN G SERVICE A Yes. TSrisf: war n lnb resume. 0 Uao tb? *" not. the **c*ult o f an actual process a t Nltro? A Yeah, lab anc' o la n t. Q W ell, when say lab , th a t's the regression equation, is n 't that right? A Yes . Q Becaure th a t'? the model, Isuppose? | ij 1 j A Right. 0 The f i r s t paragraoh d escrib es an a ctu a l event th at hsopener a t the >Htro Plant? A That's correct, \|t J i j i Q And th is i s a re fe re n c e, again ,* to your 1965 memo, p erio d ic samoles for the o a st, ten y ea rs, 1 t j i those were the retain ed san n les th a t you described e a r lie r ? !j A Yes. | | Q Those w eren 't newsamples ora d iff e r e n t j se t or anything lik e that? A No, Q What were the h ig h e st con centration s you say have o c c a sio n a lly bean observed? A What were the higher con centration s? Q Yes. Jr A The ones we saw e a r l i e r onv;;t^;$R3ih ib it th a t had a maximum o f 55 parts per m illio n . JA M ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SERVICE 1 C3 i ! 1 h _'i c:Or./. 1er. .'he u ti:.*: r-r'-'due riort i 2 o il:.' i.*f r e la t iv e ly : : r:5tr,ri'^ v. .If. r:- "2! p^rts per \ 3 m illio n wa~ based vn your revis:? o-f chose retained 4 sa r c le s and that j*ra oh th a t v:as e a r lie r examined by 5 you, 1:- that correct? 6 A. ,,i`!0 . j ! 7 J Whsc is your b a s is o f th a t conclusion? 8 A T:vi only thin g I can base that on is 9 the ai-Vilysi:- o f the a u to cla v e hatch sam ples. 10 Q w e ll, now, th ose were the samples 11 taken in 1565 in. r e la tio n to th is and the 13? 12 A 13 batches taken In three separate 13 programs. 14 Q You s a v here a s ig n if ic a n t fr a c tio n 15 was l o s t in the aqueous w aste stream s. What do you .16 mean by that? 17 A I th at th d iffe r e n c e between 18 the amount th a t's analyzed in the a u to c la v e samples 19 and the amount that was analyzed in the fin is h e d product 20 samples had to be lo s t in those aqueous w aste stre a m s. 21 Q Is the aqueous w aste streams the sewer? 22 A I d o n 't know. I , ia n o t f a m i l i a r enough 23 w ith the p la n t. .T77 24 Q W ell, then, c o u ld vou g iv e tae & 'iionftral V3yv v:;'.;,: ^ 25 d e f i n i t i o n o f aqueous w aste s tre a m s . A re you ta lk in g ab o u t JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE e * 1 the drain cr oro n=rt o f th2 c;; what -2"jct] y? 2 A V e i f r th e re arc t l e a s t two d i f f e r e n t 3 sten?. vtere a n r ^ u c t ip is o la te ^ . Tb* sodium tr ic h lo r o i i 4 phenate is iso la te d bv a f ilt r a t io n step and the m aterial ! 5 that goes through the f i l t e r , some o f i t ' s recovered and recycled but pomp is disposed o f . And what I ' m 7 ta lk in g about is the amount th a t' s d isp osed o f in th at 8 w aste stream would contnin some TDD. L ikew ise, when 9 the sodium 2 ,6 ,5 -T nrodurt is a lte r e d and when the 10 2 ,4 ,5 -.? acid 1. f ilt e r e d .th e re are waste streams th a t 11 would contain some oc the TD"? th a t r.^ps formed in thr- i i 12 h y d ro ly sis o f I t . 13 0 And the d iffe r e n c e is i f i t ' s a sewer i 14 th a t runs in to the r iv e r , i t goes *nto the r iv e r ; i f i 15 i t goes to a waste water treatm ent p la n t, i t goes there? i 16 A Right. Or whatewsr o th er ore-treatm en t 17 there i s . I 'm ju s t not eware what' s th ere, 18 Q I'd lik e to r e fe r you to page 17 and 19 in p a rticu la r c a p ita l l e t t e r D, number 1, sub-paragraph 20 sm all a . I'd lik e you to read those two sen ten ces 21 in to the record. 22 A 11In to a 1 l i t e r volum etric f la s k 23 i s weighed 0.0900 to 0,1000 gram o f 2 f 3 , 7 t 8 ;te tr a c h lo r o 24 d ib en zo-p -d ioxin (TDD). Care should be taken in t h is 25 procedure so as not to a llo w any TDD to c o n ta c t the sk in JAMES MAY R EPO R TIN G SERVICE 1 i! 1 or eyes." . 2 Q I'd lik e to refer you, p lea se, to 3 page 22 o f your report and in p a r tic u la r Roman Numeral 4 number DC under T o x icity and Hazards and I'd lik e 5 you to road in to the record the l a s t paragraph o f th at section. 7 A "Th'. acute t o x ic it y o f te tr a c h lo r o 8 d ib en zo-p -d ioxin (TDIO cannot be o v erly emphasized. 9 I t is recommended th a t s a f e ty g la s s e s , g lo v e s , s a f e ty 10 sh o e s and fa c e s h i e l d s c o n s t i t u t e th e v e ry minimum 11 s a f e t y r e q u ir e m e n t. C are sh o u ld a l s o be ta k e n to a v o id 12 b a c k - s l a s h i n g fro m a po o r sep tu m In th e GLC i n s t r u m e n t ." 13 Q What was th e so u rc e o f y our in fo rm a W tio n for th a t statem ent? 15 A I did not w rite th is part o f the l rep o rt. The a n a ly tic a l se c tio n was w r itte n by Jim 17 Sims. I reviewed i t but did not w r ite i t . 18 Q He was resp o n sib le fo r w ritin g th a t 19 paragraph? 20 A No. The e n tir e a n a ly tic a l s e c tio n 21 s ta r tin g on page 12, se c tio n B, u n t il page 22, s e c t io n 10. 22 Q In review ing h is co n trib u tio n to the 23 rep ort did you look a t h is sources? . 24 -Vj&cV ' ^ A No, I d on't b e l^ v e there:va ny . ' X^ r . ' -" T 7 ^ ; 2 5 ;?>?'*- source. I d o n 't know. I d o n 't r e c a l l , r e a lly j JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SERVICE 156 ' 1 > 1 when you received i t , is th a t right? ; i 2 T!71. 7J?VE; Objection as to the for:;. j 3 With s p e c if ic retard to th is e x h ib it and ! 4 th is time frame and those kinds o f things? j i! 5 A You' re asking whether I had any other j 6 inform ation on t o x ic it y when I wrote th is le tt e r ? j 7 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) -Yea, a ir , j 8 A X don' t r e c a ll. I may have seen 9 other references. !\ 10 Q When you were preparing the rep o rt, 11 did you undertake a search o f the lite r a tu r e regarding 12 the t o x ic it y o f TDD? 13 A No. 14 ;, Q Did you undertake a search o f the lite r a tu r e regarding the p ossib le to x ic ity o f 2,4,5-T ? ' :! j 7 `;^ 0 A No. Q And did you undertake a search o f the 18 lit e r a t u r e regarding the p o ssib le t o x ic it y o f tr ic h lo r o - 19 phenol? 20 A No. 21 Q Attached as e x h ib its to th is are a 22 number o f gas chrom atogram s. What was th e so u rce you 23 ib ed in prepa rin g thes e which a ppeaifjp- f o r exam p 102v on 24 f ig u r e 1 on document #004826? 25 A A g ain , 1 c a n ' t sa y where t h a t p a r t i c u l a r JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE tro 1 example c&stf! from c.t thir-- 'i* rv ic!j.lar tim e. I t r e f e r s 2 t o /' ;*q r** " l- - -- - i *. i 3 Q 'Ivoc vol* prec;. r *0 ? t h i s , would i 4 you h/?ve v .w A the r v ? te rl" 1 pro v id ed b^ Dow or would* 5 voi. have used a sample you a l l put to g e th e r? I f you wanted to raske .a sample chromatogram to show d io x in 7 c o n ta m in a tio n , how would you have gone a b o u t i t ? 8 /. I would th in k i t would have been sim ply 9 a ty p ic a l sample from the la b o ra to ry stu d y , but I ' m not 10 s u r e . 11 HP. SKAGGS: I d o n ' t have any f u r t h e r 12 cues t i o n s , 13 14 W illiam R. U d ell 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 M _ 24 25 JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SERVICE ^rn SIATE OF ILOILOIS , ) ss, COUNTY OF MADISON ) I , tl. JOY SPRINGER, a Rotary P u b lic, duly commissioned and q u a lifie d in and fo r the County o f Madison, S tate o f I l l i n o i s , do hereby c e r t if y that pursuant to n o tic e came before ma on the 18th day o f J u ly , 19S3, a t the Kaaisson H o tel, Room 215, 9th S tr e e t and Convention r la z a , S t. L ouis, M issouri, WILLIAM R, UDELL, who was by me duly sworn to t e s t i f y to the truth ana nothing but the tru th o f h is knowledge touching ana concerning the m atters in controversy in th is ca se; that he was thereupon c a r e f u lly examined I.- upon oath, and h is exam ination reduced to w ritin g under my su p erv isio n ; th a t the d ep o sitio n is a true record o f the testim ony given by the w itn e ss; and sign atu re o f the w itn ess was not waived, I FURTHER CERTIFY th a t I am n eith er a ttorn ey nor cou n sel fo r nor r e la te d to nor employed by and o f the p arties to the a ctio n in which th is deposition i s taken; and fu r th e r , th a t I am not a r e la t iv e or employee o f any atto rn ey or cou n sel employed.by the p arties hereto, or fin a n c ia lly intakes ted in the a c tio n . IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have fereunto s e t toy JA M ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SERVICE t. hand and a ffix e d my n o ta r ia l s e a l on th is d a y o _ _ _ ___________________ y 1963. ( 1. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 lis. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Notary Public w ith in and fo r the County o f Madison, S ta te o f I l l i n o i s . mfztmtm JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SE R V IC E rs -