Document 15zy4Bxko53p4RZX4YeaboXNq

FILE NAME: Haas (HAAS) DATE: 1998 DOC#: HAAS001 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Testimony of Gordon Coats with Barry Castleman Notes 'tl/* y / n i2<; / 3 //7 -A S / / /7S C^ . fr? o ^ 0 ^75^^ /& <37Z32Z/77 z^z^My^/-< -^2^ -- ^^nZZT; _ y?7?y, --{App \yy^ /^tpf y ////^/^ ^ y / M . $&0 r^ y ~y) ,, U Q i _ A "f/tc y&zpf'. 77> ^ / / / * ? / y 9 /t^/Jitf*? z k ^ * ^ s z & x^.?^^9' / & & / / / i n ^ ^ y y~&?A / )'-'2j&` 727-25' " " ' (/i(T7}* ' A & 72? 97o 73) TaM ' zJfs/'jtf/y^1 aMA^j . o M , S M M j M \JS / ^ ^ && c<uA.tf'prZ'UiiHJj\ t M /{ z^y-^^Uj^L. A v - t ' U ^ '7^ ^ M e ^ Jcj, Ppi~*^ W f fa 7 ) yi). *A A -. ' y-t'Cl' 9 9 ^ / 1 ^ / 2" 7 . ^ '^> %L>~b ~-3-^~ ' /? 7`) . ^ syu!y c / izi nifo- U^JK^y '^-frw<3 /7 < 73 7 ^/' ^ a q 7/A & i w K a r&*-C5 ^ 0 t^'^X. - A i ^ C A T ^ -Cy~lAyte9k*jl / 6 ^ 4 2 ^ ^^^'. ^' 7 7 C'/f7 9  , N" fT 1 IM THE SUPERIOR COURT, STATE OF CALIFORNIA 1 IN AND FOR THE CITE AND COUNTY OF SAN FRANCISCO 2 DEPARTMENT NUMBER 608 3 BEFORE THE HONORABLE CHARLENE PADOVANI MITCHELL, JUDGE 4 5 6 7 MICHAEL HAAS AND PAMELA HAAS, ) ) 8 PLAINTIFF(S) )) COURT NO. 996120 9 VS, ) RAYBESTOS-MANHATTAN, INC., ) 1 ET AL., ' ... ) ) 11 DEFENDANT(S) - ) ________ _) 12 13 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 14 MARCH 17, :1999 AND 15 MARCH 18, 1999 -- 000-- 16 17 APPEARANCES 18 19 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: 20 WARTNICK, CHABER, HAROWITZ, SMITH & TIGERMN STEVEN HAROWITZ, ESQ. 101 CALIFORNIA ST. STE 2200 SAN FRANCISCO, CA 94108 FOR THE DEFENDANT(S); CALEVARAS ASTESTOS INC. ADAMS, NYE, SINUNU, WALKER DOUG WAH, ESQ. , ONE JACKSON PLACE 633 BATTERY STREET, 5TH FL. SAN FRANCISCO, CA 94111 REPORTED BYs DEBORAH NEVILLE, CSR #9703 DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011102 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 .INDEX OF WITNESSES 1 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS FOR THE DEFENDANT: GORDON COATS 653 708 767 783 799 EXHIBIT INDEX FOR THE PLAINTIFF: 58 DEPOSITION 59 REPORTERS' TRANSCRIPT 60 LETTER 3/30/78 61 DOCUMENT 62A 1/17 - 1/19 1979 63 LETTER 5/16/79 64 EARL FLOWERS 65 3/2/79 LETTER 66 3/9/79 LETTER 67 DOCUMENT 68 69 / 2 /801" ^ 70 5/(22/79 CORRESPONDENCE 71 AIivLETER--- 72 AIA 9/20/78 73 DOCUMENT 74 NOTICE EXHIBITS THE DEFENDANT; A aI I CHART ---- 000----- IDEN 710 721 752 727 732 732 742 744 EVID r ----- .... n. 754 756 757 800 704 DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011103 1 SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA; WEDNESDAY, MARCH 17, 1999 2 THE HONORABLE CHARLENE PADOVANI MITCHELL, JUDGE 3 PROCEEDINGS IN OPEN COURT 4 ********** 5 THE COURT: 996120. . RECORD SHOULD NOTE THAT 6 ALL PERSONS ARE PRESENT. 7 MR. HROWITZ: YOUR HONOR, I BELIEVE THAT WE 8 HAVE AGREED TO CALL A WITNESS OUT OF ORDER BECAUSE OF 9 SCHEDULING. 10 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. WAH WILL BE 11 CALLING A WITNESS NOW. LET ME EXPLAIN THAT TO THE 12 JURY. PARTICULARLY SUCH AS THIS WHEN PERSONS ARE COMING 13 FROM OUT OF TOWN AND OTHER PLACES, SOMETIMES IT'S AGREED 14 UPON TO CALL A WITNESS OUT OF ORDER TO ACCOMMODATE THE 15 SCHEDULE OF THE DIFFERENT WITNESSES. SO IN THE 16 BEGINNING OF THIS TRIAL WHEN I PREINSTRUCTED YOU I TOLD 17 YOU THAT THE PLAINTIFF WOULD PUT ON THEIR CASE AND THEN 18 REST THEIR CASE AND THEN THE DFENSE WOULD PUT ON THEIR 19 SIDE. THAT'S GENERALLY TRUE. WHEN WE CALL A WITNESS 20 OUT OF ORDER, IT MEANS THAT EVEN THOUGH THE PLAINTIFF 21 HAS NOT FINISHED THE CASE IN CHIEF AND RESTED, THE 22 DEFENSE IS GOING TO CALL A WITNESS FROM THE DEFENSE SIDE 23 FOR THOSE SCHEDULING REASONS THAT I JUST EXPLAINED. 24 SO MR. WAH, YOU MAY PROCEED TO CALL YOUR 25 WITNESS. 26 MR. WAH: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. I WOULD CALL 27 AT THIS TIME GORDON COATS. . 28 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011104 1 553 THE WITNESS: GOOD MORNING, YOUR HONOR. 2 THE COURT: GOOD MORNING. 3 THE WITNESS: GOOD MORNING. 4 GORDON A. COATS 5 CLLED AS A WITNESS ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENSE, 6 HAVING FIRST BEEN DULY SWORN, TESTIFIED AS 7 FOLLOWS: e THE COURT: MR. COATS, WOULD YOU PLEASE 9 RESTATE YOUR NAME FOR OUR RECORD AND SPELL IT. IO THE WITNESS: MY NAME IS GORDON A. COATS. II G-O-R-D-O-N. A. C-O-A-T-S. 12 THE COURT: THANK YOU. YOU MAY PROCEED WHEN 13 READY, MR. WAH. 14 DIRECT EXAMINATION 15 BY MR. WAH: . 16 Q MR. COATS, WHERE DO YOU LIVE? 17 A. I LIVE IN ORINDA, CALIFORNIA. 18 Q. WHAT IS YOUR AGE? 19 A. IN TWO WEEKS I WILL BE 74 YEARS OLD. 20 Q. WOULD YOU DESCRIBE FOR THE JURY, PLEASE, 21 MR. COATS, YOUR EDUCATIONAL BACKGROUND? 22 A. YES. I GRADUATED FROM BERKELEY HIGH SCHOOL IK 23 1943. I WENT INTO THE NAVY UPON GRADUATION AND THEY PUT 24 ME IN WHAT THEY CALL THE V-12 PROGRAM AND THAT WAS A 25 COLLEGE PROGRAM. I WAS SENT TO THE UNIVERSITY OF 26 CALIFORNIA, BERKELEY FOR ONE YEAR AND THEN TRANSFERRED 27 TO UCLA FOR ABOUT A YEAR AND A HALF BECAUSE IN THOSE 28 DAYS IT WAS A TWO AND A HALF YEAR, FOUR-YEAR PROGRAM. I DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011105 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 A. I ATTEMPTED TO -- OR I DID CONTACT SEVERAL OP MY FRIENDS IN DIFFERENT INDUSTRIES THINKING THERE MIGHT BE INTEREST, BUT I WAS UNSUCCESSFUL IN FINDING ANYONE WHO WOULD EVEN MAKE AN OFFER. Q. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT? A. I CALLED THE PRESIDENT IN AUGUST, SEPTEMBER, END OF AUGUST '75 TOLD HIM THAT I HAD NOT BEEN SUCCESSFUL IN FINDING A BUYER AND HE SAID WELL, WHY DON'T YOU BY THE PROPERTY. WELL, I TOLD HIM, OF COURSE I DIDN'T.HAVE ANY CAPITAL TO BUY SUCH A FACILITY AND THEY SAID WELL, WHY DON'T YOU DESIGN SOME SORT OF A PROPOSAL AND SEE IF WE WILL -- AND WE WILL CONSIDER IT, AND THAT IS WHAT I DID. Q. AND BY PROPOSAL, WHAT DID YOU ENVISION? A. I ENVISIONED PRETTY MUCH THAT WE WOULD BUY THE ASSETS, THAT WE WOULD -- I WOULD HAVE TO RAISE CAPITAL FROM INVESTORS AND THAT THE H. K. PORTER COMPANY HAD TO FINANCE A LOT OF IT, THEY HAD TO TAKE MY NOTES FOR A LOT OF IT. Q. DID YOU HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING AT THAT TIME OF WHY THE MINE WAS CLOSED? A. THE ONLY UNDERSTANDING I HAD WAS THE EXPENSES WERE GREATER THAN THEIR REVENUES AND THEY WENT BROKE. Q. UP TO THE TIME THAT -- WELL, STRIKE THAT, MA'AM REPORTER. I 'M SORRY. AT THIS TIME DID YOU BEGIN YOURSELF TO INVESTIGATE OR TAKE A LOOK AT ASBESTOS AND ASBESTOS MINING AND MANUFACTURING ISSUES? DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 ' PID00011114 . 663 1 A. ABSOLUTELY, THAT WAS NECESSARY. IN FACT, I 2 HAD DONE SOME OF THAT PRIOR WHEN I WAS CONTACTING OTHER 3 COMPANIES TO ALERT THEM AND FIND OUT WHAT REQUIREMENTS 4 WERE TO REOPEN. 5 Q. OKAY. PRIOR TO THIS INITIAL INVESTIGATION, 6 PRIOR TO THE TIME THAT YOU DISCUSSED THE ISSUE OF -- ? 7 STRIKE THAT. 8 WHEN DID YOU BEGIN TO MAKE THESE KIND OF 9 INVESTIGATIONS? 10 A. I WOULD SAY THAT THAT WAS DONE ALMOST 11 IMMEDIATELY AFTER H. K. PORTER GAVE ME THE GO AHEAD TO 12 TRY TO FIND A BUYER. I VISITED THE REGULATORY AGENCIES, ' 13 AND DID RESEARCH ON CONSUMPTION, WHAT THE PRICING OF THE 14 PRODUCT WAS. 15 Q. OKAY. YOU TALK ABOUT REGULATORY AGENCIES, 16 WHAT REGULATORY AGENCIES DID YOU VISIT? 17 A. THEREARE MANY. 18 Q. LET'S LIST THEM. 19 A. THE KEY ONES WAS THE OSHA, OCCUPATIONAL SAFETY 20 AND HEALTH ADMINISTRATION. 21 Q. WHERE DID YOU VISIT THEM? 22 ` A. THEY'RE IN SACRAMENTO. I VISITED THE CAL OSHA 23 PEOPLE. I'VE VISITED THE MSHA WHICH IS THE MINE SAFETY 24 AND HEALTH ADMINISTRATION WHICH HAS JURISDICTION OVER 25 MINES. AND I VISITED THEM IN ALAMEDA, CALIFORNIA. 26 Q. OKAY. WHO ELSE? 27 A. I VISITED EPA, BOTH THE FEDERAL AND THE STATE 28 OFFICES. THE STATE -- FEDERAL WAS HERE IN SAN FRANCISCO DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 - PID00011115 680 1 A. PARDON ME? 2 Q. DID YOU BEGIN HIRING PEOPLE FOR CALAVERAS 3 ASBESTOS? 4 A. YES, WE BEGAN HIRING. 5 Q. WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE DID YOU BEGIN HIRING? 6 A. FIRST I NEEDED SOMEONE IN THE OFFICE AS LIKE 7 OUR CONTROLLER, AND FROM OPERATIONS I NEEDED A MILL 8 SUPERINTENDENT, A MINE SUPERINTENDENT, AND A MAINTENANCE 9 SUPERINTENDENT. 10 Q. WERE YOU ALSO HIRING PEOPLE WITH KNOWLEDGE 11 ABOUT INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE ISSUES? 12 A. YES. 13 Q. AND WHO WERE THEY? 14 A. WE ALSO HAD A MAN, HOYLMAN, BOB HOYLMAN, WHO 15 WAS OUR CERTIFIED HYGIENIST WHO DEVELOPED HIS OWN 16 DEPARTMENT FOR SAFETY AND ENVIRONMENTAL CONTROL. I 17 ! Q. ANY OTHER PEOPLE? 18 A. WELL, HE DEVELOPED HIS DEPARTMENT WHICH WAS A 19 GENTLEMAN WHO WAS A SAFETY SUPERVISOR AND A YOUNG WOMAN 20 WHO WOULD TAKE AIR SAMPLING, AND SHE WOULD DO THIS ON A 21 DAILY BASIS. AND THEN SHE WAS TRAINED IN MICROSCOPY, 22 AND SHE WOULD READ THE SAMPLES AND PREPARE A REPORT 23 WHICH WOULD GO TO MR. HOYLMAN. 24 Q. DOES THE NAME -- ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE 25 NAME JOEY TONEY? 26 A. YES, I AM. 27 Q. WHO IS JOEY TONEY? 28 A. WAS OUR SAFETY SUPERVISOR. DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011132 681 1 Q. DO SOU KNOW A KATHY FRASIER? 2 A. SHE WAS THE YOUNG WOMAN WHO DID THE 3 MONITORING. 4 Q. DID YOU ALSO HIRE MINERS? 5 A. YES, THAT WAS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE 6 SUPERINTENDENT OF THE MINES TO GO OUT AND GET HIS CREW. 7 TRUCK DRIVERS, DRILL OPERATORS FRONT-END OPERATORS. 8 Q. WHO WAS THE SUPERVISOR OF THE MINE? 9 A. MR. FRANCIS NELSON. 10 Q. DID YOU ALSO HIRE A GENTLEMAN NAMED DARYL 11 LARSON? 12 A. MR. LARSON WAS OUR CONTROLLER. 13 Q. IMMEDIATELY AFTER OCTOBER OF '75, HOW LONG WAS 14 IT BEFORE YOU WENT INTO PRODUCTION OF ASBESTOS ORE? 15 A. I BELIEVE OUR FIRST COMMERCIAL RUN WAS 16 SOMETIME IN JANUARY OF '76. 17 Q. BETWEEN OCTOBER '75 AND JANUARY OF '76, WHAT 18 WAS GOING ON AT THE MINE? 19 A. IN ANTICIPATION OF US GETTING CONTROL OF IT 20 PROPERLY, WE HAD LINED UP ENGINEERING PEOPLE WHO HAD 21 BEEN OUT. AND THEY IMMEDIATELY STARTED TO WORK, TO 22 UP THE FACILITIES, PUTTING IN NEW EQUIPMENT AND 23 FIXING ANYTHING THAT THEY THOUGHT HAD TO BE FIXED IN 24 ORDER TO BE IN COMPLIANCE. 25 Q. MR. COATS, LET ME SHOW YOU WHAT'S BEEN MARKED 26 EXHIBIT 21, PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 21. ARE YOU FAMILIAR 27 WITH THAT, MR. COATS? 28 A. YES. THAT IS A BAG WE USED TO PACK ASBESTOS DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00Q11133 701 1 OBJECT. THIS IS LEADING. 2 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. YOU CAN ASK THE 3 QUESTION ANOTHER WAY. 4 MR. WAH: ALL RIGHT. 5 Q. WHAT WERE THE DISEASES THAT CALAVERAS ADVISED 6 ITS WORKERS WERE RELATED TO ASBESTOS EXPOSURE? 7 A. ONE WAS ASBESTOSIS, ONE WAS LUNG CANCER, AND 8 THE OTHER IN VERY RARE INSTANCES COULD BE MESOTHELIOMA. 9 Q. MR. COATS, I 'M GOING TO HAND YOU WHAT'S BEEN 10 MARKED, THIS ISN'T THE ACTUAL ONE. ..... _ 11 THE COURT: L E T 'S USE THE ONE THAT'S BEEN 12 MARKED. 13 MR. WAH: L E T 'S USE THE ONE -- 14 THE COURT: TELL MR. LACY WHAT THE NUMBER IS. 15 MR. WAH: NUMBER 52. 16 Q DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT AS A LETTER THAT YOU 17 AUTHORED? 18 A. YES, THAT WAS JUST -- WE JUST OPENED THE MILL, 19 YES. 20 Q. AND WHO IS DR. SELIKOFF THAT'S REFERRED TO IN 21 THAT LETTER? . 22 A. I BELIEVE HE'S PASSED AWAY, BUT DR. SELIKOFF 23 WAS A WELL-RESPECTED DOCTOR FROM MT. SINAI, NEW YORK 24 HOSPITAL WHO DID A VERY IMPORTANT STUDY ON INSULATION 25 WORKERS, I BELIEVE IT WAS IN NEW JERSEY. 26 Q. WHAT WAS YOUR PURPOSE IN WRITING THIS LETTER 27 TO MR. CHAMBERS? 28 A. MR. CHAMBERS WAS THE CHIEF OF THE DEPARTMENT DEBORAH L.'NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011153 703 1 Q. I'M SORRY, PAGE TWO, WHERE IT STARTS PARAGRAPH 2 THREE, RESULTS OF MILL EMPLOYEE EXAMINATIONS. DO YOU 3 SEE THAT? 4 A. RESULTS OF MILL EMPLOYEE EXAMINATION -- YES, I 5 DO HAVE IT. ITEM THREE. 6 Q. YES. DO YOU SEE THAT ON -- MY COPY THERE 7 IS -- 8 A. THAT'S NOT MY HANDWRITING. 9 Q. ALL RIGHT. I WAS JUST TRYING TO FIND OUT. 10 DO YOU KNOW IF STAN HINTON WAS ONE OF THE 11 PEOPLE WHO WAS STUDIED BY DR. SELIKOFF -- 12 A. YES, HE WAS. 13 Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE TERM "PULPABLE BAG"? 14 A. YES, I AM. IS Q. WHAT IS A PULPABLE BAG? 16 A. A PULPABLE BAG WOULD BE OF A PAPER NATURE. OF 17 A CERTAIN TYPE OF PAPER WHICH JOHNS-MANSVILLE 18 EXPERIMENTED WITH. SO THAT INSTEAD OF HAVING TO CUT 19 OPEN THE BAG, THEY COULD THROW THE BAG INTO A BATCH 20 WHERE A BEATER IN A LIQUID, SLURRY, WOULD CAUSE THE BAG 21 TO DISINTEGRATE. 22 Q. AND I ASSUME THAT THEREFORE NO ONE HAD TO OPEN 23 THE BAG, BUT THE BAG JUST WENT INTO WHAT'S BEEN REFERRED 24 TO AS THE SLURRY OR THE MIX? 25 A. THAT'S RIGHT. 26 Q. DID THE BAG WORK? 27 A. NO, IT DID NOT WORK. 28 Q. WHY DIDN'T IT WORK? DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011155 109 1 MR. WAR THAT YOU BELIEVED IT MAS IMPORTANT THAT THE 2 WORKERS HAVE AS MUCH INFORMATION AS POSSIBLE. 3 A. IN REGARD TO THE HEALTH ASPECTS AND THE 4 SAFETY. 5 Q. RIGHT. WHY? 6 A. BECAUSE T RAN A VERY HEALTHFUL OPERATION AND I 7 CERTAINLY DIDN'T WANT TO BE THE CAUSE OF ANY OF MY 8 EMPLOYEES DEVELOPING ANY DISEASE RELATED TO ASBESTOS ORE 9 OR ANY OTHER TYPE OF INJURY THAT MIGHT BE CAUSED BY 10 WORKING WITH MACHINERY. 11 Q. AND YOU KNEW FOR A WORKER TO EFFECTIVELY 12 PROTECT HIMSELF HE HAD TO HAVE INFORMATION, CORRECT? 13 A. YES, THAT'S TRUE. 14 Q. HAD TO KNOW ABOUT THE THE HAZARDS THAT WERE 15 ASSOCIATED WITH ANY PARTICULAR PRODUCT BEING WORKED 16 WITH, CORRECT? 17 A. THAT IS CORRECT. 18 Q. NOW, LET ME BACK UP A LITTLE BIT- I'M GOING 19 TO GO BACK AND START FROM THE BEGINNING, BUT WE ARE 20 GOING TO START IN 1975, AND I'D LIKE TO TALK TO YOU . 21 BEGINNING WITH WHEN YOU FIRST GOT INVOLVED WITH THIS 22 MINE IN CALAVERAS COUNTY. 23 MR. HAROWITZ: AND YOUR HONOR, MAY I HAVE 24 MARKED AS PLAINTIFF'S NEXT IN ORDER A DOCUMENT, IT'S 25 ENTITLED, IT'S A JANUARY 1975 EDITION OF ASBESTOS 26 MAGAZINE. I HAVE THE ENTIRE MAGAZINE HERE AND I HAVE A 27 COPY OF THE PAGE THAT I WAS INTERESTED IN, AND THAT 28 WOULD BE THE COVER PAGE, AND PAGE 31. DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011161 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 710 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THAT'S PLAINTIFF'S 57 (PLAINTIFF'S. EXHIBIT 57 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) MR. HAROWITZi THANK YOU. AND MAY I APPROACH THE WITNESS, PLEASE? ' THE COURT: YOU MAY. MR. HAROWITZi Q MR. COATS, YOU WERE A SUBSCRIBER OF ASBESTOS MAGAZINE DURING THE TIME THAT YOU WERE INVOLVED WITH CALAVERAS MINE; IS THAT RIGHT? -- A. THAT'S RIGHT. Q. OKAY. AND WHEN YOU FIRST BECAME INVOLVED IN LOOKING AT THE ISSUE OF BUYING A MINE, YOU BECAME AWARE OF THIS JANUARY 1975 ADVERTISEMENT FOR THE SALE OF THE CALAVERAS MINE? IS THAT CORRECT? A. NOT AT THAT TIME PERIOD. q . WREN DID YOU BECOME AWARE OF THIS? A. IN JULY OF 1975. Q. OKAY. FINE. AND TELL US, WHAT DOES THAT AD INDICATE REGARDING THE SALE OF AN ASBESTOS MINE? THE COURT: MR. HAROWITZ, WHY DON'T YOU MOVE BACK A LITTLE BIT? MR. HAROWITZ: I 'M SORRY, YOUR HONOR. THE WITNESS: THIS INDICATES THAT THE H. K. PORTER COMPANY OF PITTSBURGH, PENNSYLVANIA HAD FOR SALE A COMPLETE ASBESTOS MINE AND MILL LOCATED AT COPPEROPOLIS, CALIFORNIA. Q. OKAY. DOES IT INDICATE THE AMOUNT OF TONS OF DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PIDQQ011162 711 1 THAT WERE AVAILABLE AT THAT MINE? A. THEY ESTIMATED THAT THERE WERE APPROXIMATELY 2 3 MILLION TONS OF ORE IN PLACE WITH A GRADE OF $20 PER 4 TON IN FIBER. 5 Q GROUPS FOUR THROUGH SEVEN? 6 A. YES. Q. AND HOW LARGE WAS THE LOCATION, THE MINE SITE, 7 8 ACCORDING TO THIS ADVERTISEMENT? 9 A. 560 ACRES. Q. NOW, YOU'VE ALREADY TOLD US, MR. COATS, T H A T _ 10 WHEN YOU FIRST BECAME INVOLVED -IN CONSIDERING BUYING THE 11 12 MINE, AND PRIOR TO THAT TIME, I SHOULD SAY, YOU HAD NO 13 INFORMATION ABOUT ASBESTOS, NO KNOWLEDGE ABOUT ASBESTOS, 14 OR THE RISKS OF WORKING WITH ASBESTOS? 15 A. THAT IS TRUE. Q. OKAY. SO BEFORE YOU PUT THIS PACKAGE TOGETHER 16 17 THAT WE'VE HEARD A LITTLE BIT ABOUT, YOU DID A THOROUGH 18 STUDY AND INVESTIGATION OF ASBESTOS, THE RISKS OF 19 ASBESTOS, THE REGULATIONS SURROUNDING THE MINING AND 20 MILLING OF ASBESTOS, WHAT YOU WOULD HAVE TO DO IN ORDER 21 TO BRING THE MINE AND MILL UP TO SAFETY STANDARDS TOO; 22 IS THAT CORRECT? 23 A. THAT IS CORRECT, DEPENDING ON THE DEFINITION OF "THOROUGH." YOU USED THE WORD "THOROUGH." Q. I DID? A. YEAH. SO IN MY UNDERSTANDING OF THE WORD "THOROUGH" FROM A BUSINESS POINT OF VIEW, YES, I DID MAKE SUCH A STUDY. DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011163 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 2i 112 Q. AND THIS STUDY TOOK YOU FROM JULY OR AUGUST OF 1975 UNTIL ABOUT OCTOBER OF 1975? ..... ... .. __ A. CORRECT. Q. AND YOU TOLD US YOU CONSULTED WITH EPA, OSHA, >JITH .... YOU DIDN'T MENTION IF YOU CONSULTED WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR, DID YOU? A. DEPARTMENT OF INTERIOR IS MSHA. Q. OH, EXCUSE ME, OKAY. AND THEN THE JOHNS-MANSVILLE COMPANY TO GATHER INFORMATION SO TOO COULD MAKE A DECISION AS TO NHETHER ... TOU WANTED TO ACTUALLY GET INVOLVED IN IBIS MINING PROCESS, CORRECT? A. THAT IS CORRECT. Q. YOU FOUND OUT ABOUT THE NEED AT THAT TIME FOR ' CHEST X-RAYS TO BE TAKEN, AND PULMONARY FUNCTION STUDIES TO BE TAKEN OF WORKERS AT THE MINE, CORRECT? A. YES. Q. AND YOU ALSO AT THIS TIME YOU TOLD US THAT YOU LOOKED INTO THE ENGINEERING REQUIREMENTS TO BRING THE MINE UP TO SAFETY STANDARDS SO THAT IT WOULD BE HEALTHFUL; IS THAT CORRECT? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. AND WHAT YOU FOUND OUT WAS IT WAS GOING TO COST SOMETHING LIKE $800,000 TO BRING THE MINE UP TO SNUFF, SO THAT YOU COULD RUN THIS MINE IN A SAFE MANNER? A CORRECT. Q. ISN'T IT CORRECT, MR. COATS, THAT THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY TOLD YOU YOU CAN'T OPEN DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011164 i 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 , 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 2 713 IHIS MINE UNLESS YOU DID ALL OF THESE THINGS? A. YES. .............. ..... ......... Q. SO YOU LOOKED AT THE WHOLE MIXTURE, YOU KNEW WHAT IT WAS GOING TO COST YOU AND YOU MADE A DETERMINATION OF WHETHER IT COULD STILL BE PROFITABLE TO MINE AND MILL AND SELL ASBESTOS OUT OF THIS COPPEROPOLIS LOCATION GIVEN WHAT YOU WOULD HAVE TO SPEND, CORRECT? A. YES. q MID you REACHED THE CONCLUSION THAT YES, YOU STILL COULD MAKE MONEY SELLING ASBESTOS EVEN THOUGH YOU HAD TO DO ALL OF THESE CHANGES AND UPGRADES AND THE LIKE, CORRECT? A. YES. Q. AT THE TIME THAT YOU DID THESE STUDIES EXCUSE M E . AT THE TIME YOU DID THAT INVESTIGATION, ONE OF THE THINGS YOU ALSO DID IS YOU WENT TO LIBRARIES, REFERENCE LIBRARIES TO GET A LITTLE BIT OF INFORMATION . FOR YOURSELF, CORRECT? A. NO, I DON'T THINK I DID GO TO A PUBLIC LIBRARY. (PAUSE IN PROCEEDINGS.) MR. HAROWITZ: Q OKAX. I GUESS YOU DIDN'T. YOU DIDN'T G O TO ANY LIBRARIES AT THE TIME? A. I WENT TO THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, BUT NOT TO A PUBLIC LIBRARY. O THIS WAS THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA LIBRARY? DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011165 714 R . THAT'S WHERE I DID SOME REFERENCE WORK. 1 q . AND AT THAT TIME YOU LEARNED OR AS A RESULT OF 2 YOUR INVESTIGATION YOU LEARNED THAT WITH SUFFICIENT 3 EXPOSURE TO ASBESTOS THAT WAS INHALED BY WORKERS, 4 WORKERS COULD DEVELOP ASBESTOS-RELATED DISEASES OVER 5 6 TIME? . 7 A. YES. BUT BEYOHD THAT, MR. COATS, YOU DIDN'T SEEK 8 THE ASSISTANCE OF AN EPIDEMIOLOGIST, CORRECT? 9 10 A. NO, I DID NOT. ,, , Q YOU DIDN'T CONSULT WITH AN EPIDEMIOLOGIST TO 11 FIND OUT WHAT THE LONG-TERM EFFECTS OF ASBESTOS MIGHT 12 13 BE? A. NOT WITH AN EPIDEMIOLOGIST, NO, SIR. 14 Q. AND YOU DIDN'T CONSULT WITH ANY DOCTORS AT THE 15 TIME YOU WERE BUYING THE MINE, TO DETERMINE WHAT THE 16 17 SPECIFIC HEALTH EFFECTS OF ASBESTOS WOULD BE? 18 A. NO, I DID NOT. Q. NOW, YOU TOLD US THAT YOU FOUND OUT TO BRING 19 THE MINE UP TO SAFETY STANDARDS, YOU WERE GOING TO HAVE TO GET TO A FIBER PER CUBIC CENTIMETER OF SOMETHING LIKE FIVE FIBERS PER CUBIC CENTIMETER? A. YES. Q. WAS THAT FOR THE MINE OR THE MILL OR JUST THE MILL? A. I BELIEVE I SAID THAT THE OSHA, WHICH CONTROLLED THE KILL, WAS ALREADY AT FIVE, AND THE MIHE MAS AT 10, AMD THEY SAID THAT SHORTLY TREY WOULD BE AT DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011166 715 1 FIVE. Q. DID you know that the osha standard which was 2 e n a c t e d ' IN 1572, WHICH WAS AT FIVE, WAS TO BE REDUCED TO 3 4 TWO IN 1976? A> NO, I DID NOT KNOW THAT. 5 6 Q. SAVE YOU EVER LEARNED THAT? : 7 A. WELL, YES. . 8 Q. WHEN DID YOU LEARN THAT? A. WELL, AFTER WE GOT INTO BUSINESS AND WE HAD 9 already discussed with engineers to go to at least below 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 21 2i 2 2 TWO. Q. BY 1976 WHEN YOU BEGAN TO SELL ASBESTOS, THE LEVEL WAS AT TWO FIBERS? - A . IT m i g h t HAVE BEEN LATER IN THE TEAR OE 1976. Q. AT ANY RATE, THAT WAS THE LEVEL THAT YOU HAD TO LIVE WITH? . A. YES, SIR. Q. WERE YOU PRESENT WHEN SAMPLING WAS BEING DONE OF THE AIR AT THE MILL? A. YES, MANY TIMES. Q AND d i d y o u s e e t h e r e s u l t s of t h e s a m p l i n g ? A. YES, I HAVE SEEN THE RESULTS OF SAMPLING. Q. WERE THERE EVER SITUATIONS WHERE YOU DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING IN THE AIR BUT THERE WAS STILL MEASURABLE ASBESTOS IN THE AIR? A. YES, I WOULD SAY AT A LEVEL OF TWO FIBERS OR FIVE FIBERS OR EVEN 10 FIBERS YOU MAY NOT SEE ANYTHING IN THE AIR. THAT IS WHY WE HAVE TO TAKE THE DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011167 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 measurements to determine what the levels a r e . 716 Q. SOME OF THE THINGS THAT YOU HAD TO DO TO OPEN THIS MINE UP INCLUDED, YOU MENTIONED THE BAG HOUSES THAT YOU DESCRIBED. YOU ALSO HAD TO PUT IN CYCLONES, CORRECT? A. . UM-HUM, UH-HUH. g TELL THE JURY WHAT CYCLONES ARE. A. IN A FACILITY LIKE THIS, AS IF YOUR VACUUM CLEANER, YOU SUCK IN AIR. A CYCLONE IS A BIG FAN THAT CAUSES NEGATIVE AIR OR SUCTION AND THIS AIR WOULD EXTEND. DOWN THROUGH PIPES FOR DIFFERENT PIECES OF MACHINERY, AND THEN IT WOULD GO UP THROUGH THE CYCLONE AND THEN FROM THERE INTO THE BAG HOUSE. Q AND YOU BELIEVE THAT THROUGH USE OF THIS PROCESS, YOU COULD REMOVE SOMETHING LIKE 99.99 PERCENT OF THE ASBESTOS DUST IN THE MILL? A. WE COULD MAKE IT VERY HEALTHFUL, YES. Q. NOW, YOU DIDN'T PARTICULARLY LIKE SPENDING ALL THAT MONEY ON CLEANING UP THE MINE AND MILL, BUT YOU RECOGNIZED THAT WAS THE ONLY WAY YOU WERE GOING TO BE ABLE TO OPERATE THIS MINE AND MILL, CORRECT? A. OH, YES. Q. IN FACT, YOU REALLY, AT THE TIME THAT YOU PURCHASED THIS MINE AND MILL, YOU REALLY DIDN'T THINK THAT 10 FIBERS PER CUBIC CENTIMETER OF ASBESTOS WAS A DANGEROUS LEVEL, DID YOU? A. WELL, I DON'T THINK WHAT I THOUGHT WAS TOO IMPORTANT. THE LAW SAID YOU HAD TO BE THERE, BELOW DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011168 717 1 FIVE. . BUT YOUR ATTITUDE WAS "THAT'S NOT GOING TO GET 2 3 ANYBODY SICK"? A. NO, NO. THAT IS NOT CORRECT, SIR. 4 Q. W A S N 'T IT YOUR POSITION IN THE TIME THAT YOU 5 PURCHASED THIS MINE AND MILL.THAT PEOPLE WERE GETTING 6 SICK AT 100 FIBERS PER CUBIC CENTIMETER OVER A 10-YEAR 7 PERIOD AND THAT WOULD BE AN 8-HOUR TIME-WEIGHTED 8 9 AVERAGE? A . I BELIEVE THAT IS A QUESTION THAT I WAS;ASKED 10 IN 1992, AND IT WAS NOT PHRASED THAT WAY. IT SAID AT 11 WHAT LEVELS WOULD YOU BE FEARFUL IF PEOPLE HAD TO WORK 12 13 IN THOSE THINGS, AND THAT WAS THE NUMBER I TOLD. q AND THAT'S THE LEVEL YOU TOLD ME AT THIS TIME 14 15 YOU THOUGHT PEOPLE WOULD GET SICK? A. THAT THEY WOULD GET SICK AT A LOT LOWER LEVEL 16 17 ALSO. Q. WHEN I ASKED YOU AT WHAT LEVEL PEOPLE WOULD 18 GET SICK, YOU TOLD ME 100 FIBERS PER CUBIC CENTIMETER 19 OVER AN 8-HOUR TIME-WEIGHTED AVERAGE FOR 10 YEARS; IS THAT CORRECT, SIR? A. I MAY HAVE SAID THAT, YES. Q. NOW, YOU'VE TOLD THIS JURY YOU HAD A GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY. A. YES, . , Q. SIR, DIDN'T YOU. BELIEVE THAT MEDIA AND GOVERNMENTAL AGENCIES AND MAINLY THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY WAS CREATING -- THIS IS YOUR QUOTE, _________ ____ -- ------------------- -- -------~ ~ DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011169 718 "MASS HYSTERIA" BECAUSE THEY WERE SCARING THE AMERICAN 1 PUBLIC AND AMERICAN MOTHERS FROM THEIR REPORTS ON 2 3 ASBESTOS? MR. WAH: OBJECTION. IF HE HAS A QUOTE, LET'S 4 5 SHOW THE GENTLEMAN HIS TESTIMONY. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. AND I NEED THE 6 7 ORIGINAL LODGED WITH THE COURT. MR. HAROWITZ: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE A COPY IF 8 9 THAT'S ACCEPTABLE. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. , -- - 10 MR. HAROWITZ: YOU WANT THAT MARKED, YOUR 11 12 HONOR? 13 THE COURT: YES. ALL RIGHT. SO OUR RECORD IS CLEAR, WE HAVE AS PLAINTIFF'S 58 THE DEPOSITION OF 14 GORDON A. COATS ON MARCH 25TH, '92. I DON T SEE A 15 16 VOLUME NUMBER ON THIS. MR. HAROWITZ: IT'S JUST ONE VOLUME. 17 18 MR. WAH: YES. (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 58 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) MR. HAROWITZ: Q MR. COATS, YOU RECALL I TOOK YOUR DEPOSITION BACK IN 1992? A. I DO. q . AND IT WAS A RATHER LENGTHY DEPOSITION, I THINK? A. Q. YES, IT WAS. DURING THAT DEPOSITION, I'M GOING TO BE DEBORAH Jj. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011170 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 719 REFERRING TO PAGE 40, LINES ONE THROUGH ELEVEN. ALL RIGHT. AND I 'M GOING TO BE REFERRING TO PAGE 40, L I N E S ..... ONE THROUGH 11 A. PAGE 40? Q. PAGE 40 LINES ONE THROUGH 11. MR. HAROWITZ: MAY I PROCEED WITH THAT; YOUR HONOR? Q I ASKED YOU THEN, CAN YOU GENERALLY TELL ME WHAT IT WAS THAT YOU LEARNED, AND I MAY BECOME MORE SPECIFIC. I WANT TO LEARN FIRST OF ALL THE GENERAL _ AREAS OF CONCERN AND GENERALLY WHAT YOU UNCOVERED. YOUR ANSWER WAS, AS A PREAMBLE, I LEARNED THAT THE MEDIA AND CERTAIN GOVERNMENTAL AGENCIES, PRINCIPALLY THE EPA, WERE IN A MASS HYSTERIA MODE, THEY WERE SCARING THE AMERICAN PUBLIC AND MOTHERS WHO HAD LITTLE CHILDREN, TO A DEGREE WHICH WAS UNCONSCIONABLE. AND I CAN CONTINUE WITH THE REST OF THE ANSWER. MR. WAH: YES, YOUR HONOR. MR- HAROWITZ: Q. HAVING SAID THAT I WAS AWARE THAT ASBESTOS FIBERS INHALED IN HIGHER CONCENTRATIONS FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME THEY COULD POSSIBLY CAUSE INJURIES, HEALTH INJURIES TO THOSE PERSON'S WHO HAD BEEN IN THAT ENVIRONMENT. MOW, MR. COATS, YOU STATED THAT AT THAT TIME EVEN THOUGH YOU KNEW -- STRIKE THAT. YOU'VE INDICATED IN THIS DEPOSITION AS WELL, DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 ~ piD00011't71 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 720 WHICH WE CAM GO TO THAT IF YOU LIKE/ THAT THE LEVELS OF 100 FIBERS PER CUBIC CENTIMETER OVER A 10 YEAR TIME .. PERIOD THAT PEOPLE WOULD BE GETTING SICK? , A. THEY WOULD BE GETTING SICK, YES. Q AND WHEN I ASKED YOU AT WHAT LEVEL PEOPLE GOT SICK, THAT'S WHAT YOU TOLD ME; IS THAT RIGHT? A. I SAID THAT AT THOSE LEVELS PEOPLE WOULD GET SICK AND I DIDN'T WANT TO HAVE MY EMPLOYEES IN ANY CONDITIONS LIKE THAT. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. AND YOU'VE INDICATED,TO US THAT YOU HAD RECEIVED -- AND LET ME SEE IF THAT -- MR. HAROWITZ: MAY I APPROACH AGAIN YOUR, HONOR? THE COURTS YOU MAY. MR. HAROWITZ: I 'LL BE PUTTING BEFORE YOU EXHIBIT NUMBER 52. Q. WHEN YOU MADE THAT STATEMENT IN THE, DEPOSITION YOU HAD ALREADY SEEN AND RECEIVED THIS REPORT BY DR. SELIKOFF} IS THAT CORRECT? A. YES, THAT WAS 16 YEARS PREVIOUSLY. Q. SO YOU KNEW FROM THAT REPORT FROM DR. SELIKOFF THAT IN FACT, PEOPLE WERE GETTING SICK AT MUCH LOWER LEVELS OF EXPOSURE TO ASBESTOS?. A. I BELIEVE THAT'S TRE. Q. OKAY. AND YOU'VE BEEN ASKED SINCE I ASKED YOU AT DEPOSITION WHETHER YOU THOUGHT THAT FOR PEOPLE TO GET SICK FROM ASBESTOS, WHETHER THEY HAD TO BE EXPOSED TO 100 FIBERS PER CUBIC CENTIMETER IN THAT 10-YEAR PERIOD DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011172 721 ON AN 8-HOUR TIME-WEIGHTED AVERAGE, HAVEN'T YOU, SIR -- 1 YOU'VE BEEN ASKED THE SAME QUESTION THE LAST TIME YOU 2 3 WERE IN COURT, WEREN'T YOU? . 4 A. I DON'T RECALL THAT I .WAS. MR. HAROWITZ: MAY I HAVE THEN MARKED NEXT IN 5 ORDER REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS FROM JUNE 29, 6 7 1996. 8 9 10 11 12 13 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THAT1S 59. (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 59 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) , _ THE COURT: WHAT IS THE DATE ON THAT? MR. HAROWITZ: JUNE 29, 1996. THE COURT: THIS IS THE DEPOSITION OF 14 MR. COATS? MR. HAROWITZ: THIS IS HIS TRIAL TESTIMONY IN 15 THE CASE OF ISOLA. AND MAY I APPROACH THE WITNESS? 16 17 THE COURT: YOU MAY. 18 MR. HAROWITZ: q REFERRING t o PAGE 67, LINES TWO THROUGH 21. 19 MR- HAROWITZ: MAY I PROCEED, YOUR HONOR? 20 2 1 THE COURT: I NEED YOU TO APPROACH. (COUNSEL APPROACH THE BENCH.) 22 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. YOU MAY PROCEED, MR. HAROWITZ. . MR. HAROWITZ: q SIR, YOU WERE, LET'S SEE, 1996 YOU WERE PROBABLY ON FOLSOM STREET WHEN YOU TESTIFIED IN THE ISOLA CASE; IS THAT CORRECT? DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011173 ' . 722 1 A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. AT THAT TIME MY PARTNER ASKED YOU SOME -- 2 3 A. MS. CHABER. Q. AT THIS TIME SHE ASKED YOU QUESTION, AND AT 4 5 THE TIME YOU WENT INTO THIS BUSINESS YOU THOUGHT THAT 6 DESPITE WHAT THE STANDARDS WERE OF 10 GOING TO FIVE 7 GOING TO TWO, THAT UNLESS A PERSON BREATHED IN 100 8 FIBERS PER CC FOR 8 HOURS A DAY FOR TEN OR 20 YEARS, 9 THAT THEY WOULDN'T GET ASBESTOS DISEASE, CORRECT, YOUR 10 ANSWER WAS THAT'S A GENERALITY? , -- 11 A. YES. Q. AND THEN SHE READ FROM THE DEPOSITION THAT I 12 13 JUST READ FROM BEFORE. AND THE QUESTION WAS PAGE 63 14 LINES 23 THROUGH 26. 15 "THE ANSWER: I 'M SURE THAT I 'VE SAID AS A 16 NUMBER, IF YOU EVER BREATHED IN 100 FIBERS PER CC FOR A 17 LONG PERIOD OF TIME THAT WOULD NOT BE VERY HEALTHFUL. 18 THEN SHE READ: QUESTION, YOU SAID IN 1975 19 YOUR BELIEF THAT A CONCENTRATION OF ASBESTOS HIGH ENOUGH 20 TO CREATE ASBESTOS DISEASE WAS 100 FIBERS PER CC 8 HOURS 21 A DAY, FIVE TO 10 YEARS; IS THAT YOUR OPINION, WAS THAT 22 YOUR OPINION AT THE TIME? 23 ANSWER: THAT WAS MY OPINION AT THE TIME . QUESTION: HAS THAT OPINION CHANGED SINCE 24 25 THEN? ANSWER s NO, NOT REALLY." . I ASK YOU, MR. COATS, IS THAT STILL YOUR OPINION TODAY? DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSB. 9703 PID00011174 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 723 A. absolutely not. Q. WHEN DID THIS CHANGE BETWEEN 1996 AND NOW? A. WELL, I WOULD SAY BETWEEN 1992, WE NEVER, EVER WOULD SUGGEST THAT AN EMPLOYEE SHOULD BE SUBJECTED TO . THOSE LEVELS. q . YOU TOLD US THAT WHEN YOU GOT THE SELIKOFF REPORT AND -- MR. HAROWIT2: MAY I APPROACH AGAIN, YOUR HONOR? THE COURT: YOU MAY. . ..... MR. HAR0WIT2: q _ WHAT HAS BEEN IDENTIFIED AS NUMBER 52, THAT YOU HAD SOMEBODY IN YOUR EMPLOY LOOK INTO THE EMPLOYEES AT YOUR PLANT; IS THAT CORRECT? . A. YES. q . WHO WAS THAT? A. MR. HOYLMAN. . Q. WAS THAT DR. HOYLMAN? A. HE WAS NOT A DOCTOR. Q. SO YOU WERE GOING TO ACCEPT WHAT MR. HOYLMAN SAID OVER WHAT DR. SELIKOFF HAD TO SAY ABOUT EMPLOYEES; IS THAT CORRECT? A. ONCE WE HAD THE EMPLOYEES EXAMINED BY OUR CONTRACT HOSPITAL AND THE DOCTORS AND THE B READER, THAT WE FOUND THAT THEY WERE HEALTHY AND HAD NO INDICATION OF AN ASBESTOS-RELATED DISEASE, WE PUT OUR TRUST IN OUR DOCTOR'S OPINION. Q. OKAY. NOW, ISN'T IT CORRECT, MR. COATS, THAT DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 ` PID00011175 724 1 MNY OF THE EMPLOYEES THAT WORKED FOR PACIFIC ASBESTOS 2 NEVER. CAME TO WORK FOR CALAVERAS? .... ... 3 A. I DON'T KNOW THAT. 4 Q. WELL, HOW MANY PEOPLE FROM PACIFIC CAME TO 5 WORK FOR CALAVERAS? 6 A. I DON;,T KNOW THE PRECISE NUMBER, BUT MANY. 7 Q. SO YOU DON'T KNOW WHETHER THE PEOPLE WHO HAD 8 DEVELOPED ASBESTOSIS WHEN THEY WORKED FOR PACIFIC 9 ASBESTOS HAD RETIRED OR WERE TOO SICK TO COME TO WORK AT 10 CALAVERAS; IS THAT RIGHT? - --- 11 A. I DON'T KNOW OF ANY EMPLOYEE WHO WORKED FOR 12 PACIFIC THAT CONTRACTED ASBESTOSIS. 13 Q. NOW, AFTER THIS INITIAL PROCEDURE, INITIAL 14 TIME PERIOD WHEN YOU WERE LOOKING INTO INVESTIGATING 15 WHAT YOU HAD TO DO IN ORDER TO OPEN THE MINE, AND WHEN 16 YOU ACTUALLY OPENED THE MINE, THE AGENCIES THAT YOU 17 DISCUSSED CONTINUED TO COME BACK ON A REGULAR BASIS TO 18 THE MINE AND THE MILL TO INSPECT, CORRECT? 19 A. YES. 20 Q. OKAY. AND I KNOW YOU'VE TOLD THIS JURY YOU 21 HAD A VERY GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH OSHA THAT DEVELOPED 22 OVER THE YEARS; IS THAT CORRECT? 23 A. YES. 24 MR. HAROWITZ: YOUR HONOR, MAY I HAVE MARKED AS NEXT IN ORDER A MARCH 30, 1978 LETTER WHICH PURPORTS TO BE FROM MR. COATS TO TASK GROUP A? THE COURT: OKAY. THAT WOULD BE 60. (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 60 MARKED FOR DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011176 725 1 IDENTIFICATION.) 2 MR. HAROWITZ: MAY I APPROACH THE WITNESS, 3 PLEASE? 4 THE COURT: YOU MAY. 5 MR. HAROWITZ: 6 e MR. COATS, I'M PLACING BEFORE YOU WHAT HAS 7 BEEN MARKED AS PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 60. I ASK YOU 8 TO TAKE A LOOK AT THAT TO SEE IT THAT'S FAMILIAR TO 9 YOU. 10 A. YES, I HAVE. c .. 11 Q. AND THAT'S YOUR SIGNATURE ON THAT LETTER? 12 A. ABSOLUTELY. 13 Q. THAT WAS PREPARED IN THE ORDINARY COURSE OF 14 THE BUSINESS OF CALAVERAS ASBESTOS MINING COMPANY? 15 A. YES, AND I DRAFTED THE LETTER. 16 MR. HAROWITZ! YOUR HONOR, I WOULD LIKE TO PUT 17 THIS UP BEFORE THE JURY. 18 THE COURT: MR. WAH, OBJECTION? 19 MR. WAH: NO, YOUR HONOR. 20 MR. HAROWITZ! 21 Q OKAY. MR. COATS, I'M GOING TO READ THE 22 LETTER. YOU FOLLOW ALONG WITH ME. IT GOES; 23 "TASK GROUP A INTER-AGENCY TASK FORCE. 24 SUBJECT: MSHA/ OSHA JURISDICTION, 25 AND IT'S DATED MARCH 30, 1978. 26 AND IT READS: 27 WE ARE A SMALL OPEN PIT MINING AND MILLING 28 COMPANY EMPLOYING 200 PEOPLE. OUR ECONOMIC IMPACT ON DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011177 726 1 THE RURAL, MOUNTAINOUS COMMUNITIES IN WHICH OUR 2 EMPLOYEES LIVE IS SUBSTANTIAL. . .... .. ...... 3 WE PLACE HUMAN LIFE AND OCCUPATIONAL SAFETY AS 4 TOP PRIORITY. WE HAVE A RECORD OF COOPERATION WITH THE 5 MANY LEVELS OF GOVERNMENTAL AGENCIES THAT REGULARLY 6 Duplicate each others routine inspections, i am pleased ' 7 TO THINK OUR ATTITUDE AND PHILOSOPHY IS ONE OF 8 CORPORATION RATHER THAN AS AN ADVERSARY OF GOVERNMENT. 9 I MUST POINT OUT HOWEVER, THAT WE ARE 10 CONSTANTLY PLAGUED WITH UNEXPECTED VISITS FROM FEDERAL, 11 STATE, AND LOCAL AGENCIES. ALSO, WE ARE ASKED TO SUPPLY 12 CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS DATA TO THESE AGENCIES. THE TIME 13 CONSUMED BY OUR EMPLOYEES TO ASSIST THESE VISITS AND 14 COMPLETE THE FORMS AND OTHER PEOPLE PAPERWORK IS 15 EXTREMELY COSTLY. FURTHERMORE, MUCH OF THE INFORMATION 16 IS OF NO VALUE TO THE GOVERNMENT AND SHOULD NOT BE in BLIXHLY GIVEN. 18 OSHA AND MSHA PAPERWORK GETS MORE COMPLICATED 19 AND EXTENSIVE EACH DAY WITH DUPLICATION AND REPETITION. 20 GOVERNMENT HAS TAKEN THE FREE OUT OF 'FREE ENTERPRISE', 21 AS WE FIND OURSELVES BECOMING SLAVES OF PAPERWORK AND 22 REPORTS. 23 PAGE TWO. MSHA EMPLOYEES HAVE BEEN FOUND TO 24 BE HELPFUL, COOPERATIVE, FIRM AMD FAIR. THEY ARE 25 KNOWLEDGEABLE WITH YEARS OF MINING EXPERIENCE. THEY 26 KNOW OUR PROBLEMS AND BECAUSE OF THEIR VAST EXPERIENCE 27 ARE HELPFUL IN FINDING SOLUTIONS. 28 OSHA PEOPLE GENERALLY LACK PRACTICAL MINING DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011178 I ~! 727 1 EXPERIENCE, HENSE ARE NOT PROBLEM SOLVERS. THEY CAM BE 2 THOUGHT OF RATHER AS A GROUP OF POLICE TYPE INSPECTORS ____ 3 WHO READ GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS, INTERPRET THEM AND THEN 4 ISSUE CITATIONS. A KNOWLEDGE OF REAL WORLD IS LACKING. 5 INSTEAD OF WORKING IN CONCERT WITH INDUSTRY TO ACHIEVE A 6 COMMON SAFETY GOAL, OSHA SEEMS TO THINK OF THE PRIVATE 7 SECTOR AS THEIR ADVERSARY. 8 IT IS HOPED OUR OPINIONS WILL BE CONSIDERED BY 9 THIS TASK GROUP. GORDON A COATS, PRESIDENT." 10 SO, MR. COATS, THE RELATIONSHIP -- STRIKE 11 THAT. 12 YOU DIDN'T HOLD OSHA IN QUITE SO HIGH ESTEEM 13 AS YOU MIGHT HAVE SUGGESTED EARLIER IN YOUR TESTIMONY, 14 SIR? 15 A. AT THAT DATE I DID NOT. 16 Q. AND, IN FACT, ISN'T IT, CORRECT, SIR, THAT 17 OVER THE YEARS YOU WERE CITED FOR VIOLATIONS OF OSHA 18 SPECIFICALLY RELATED TO DUST VIOLATIONS? 19 A. PROBABLY SOME MINOR VIOLATIONS WHICH I D O N 'T 20 RECALL AT THIS TIME. 21 MR. HAROWITZ: MAY I HAVE MARKED AS NEXT IN 22 ORDER DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS DIVISION OF 23 INDUSTRIAL SAFETY, CITATION DATED, LOOKS LIKE 10/12 24 1977, AND THERE'S DIFFERENT DATES ON II ~ EXCUSE ME, 25 AUGUST 25, 1977. . 26 THE COURT; ALL RIGHT. THAT'S PLAINTIFF'S 61. 27 (PLAINTIFF'S 61 MARKED FOR 28 IDENTIFICATION.) DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011179 728 1 MR. HAROWITZ: MAY I APPROACH THE WITNESS? 2 THE COURT: YOU MAY. . .. 3 MR. HAROWITZ: 4 Q MR. COATS, I 'M PLACING BEFORE YOU EXHIBIT 5 NUMBER 61. I'LL ASK YOU TO TAKE A LOOK AT THAT AND SEE 6 IF THAT'S FAMILIAR TO YOU. 7 A YES, I 'VE SEEN THIS. 8 Q. AND ON THIS DOCUMENT THERE IS REFERENCE TO A 9 CITATION FOR ASBESTOS WORK PRACTICES ON OCTOBER 1, 1977, 10 CORRECT? THE FIRST PAGE YOU SEE THAT, ASBESTOS WORK 11 PRACTICES? 12 A. ASBESTOS SPILL ON THIRD FLOOR OF MILL. 13 Q. AND IF WE GO DOWN TO THE NEXT PAGE THERE'S 14 ALSO A VIOLATION FOR MECHANICAL VENTILATION SYSTEMS; DO 15 YOU SEE THAT? 16 A. I SEE THAT. 17 Q. OKAY. IT SAYS THE FOLLOWINGMECHANICAL 18 VENTILATION SYSTEMS WERE NOT MAINTAINED FREE OF LEAKS TO 19 PREVENT HARMFUL DUST FROM BEING.DISPERSED INTO THE 20 ATMOSPHERE? . . 21 A. UH-HUH. 22 Q* YES? 23 A. YES. . 24 Q. AND THAT WASDATED OCTOBER 12, 1997? 25 A. UM-HUM. 26 Q. AND IF YOU GO DOWN TO THE LAST TWO PAGES OF 27 THE DOCUMENT, YOU SEE THAT IT'S ENTITLED "ASBESTOS DUST 28 CONTROL"? DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011180 729 1 A. YES. 2 Q. FEBRUARY 15, 1978? ...... 3 A. YES. 4 Q. IT SAYS DURING THE PLANT SURVEY ON AUGUST 23, 5 24, 1977, A DUST SURVEY WAS CONDUCTED BY G. DENTON AND 6 S. RHYU. THE LABORATORY ANALYSIS OF THESE DUST SAMPLES 7 IN BREATHING ZONES OF THE ORE PREP PLANT OPERATOR AND 8 CRUSHER OPERATOR EXCEEDS THE THRESHOLD LIMIT VALUES FOR 9 ASBESTOS DUST. THESE EMPLOYEES WERE WEARING RESPIRATORY 10 EQUIPMENT OFF AND ON AT THE TINE OF THIS SURVEY. 11 HOWEVER, RESPIRATOR EQUIPMENT IS NOT PERMITTED AS A 12 SUBSTITUTE FOR ENVIRONMENTAL CONTROLS. 13 DID I READ THAT CORRECTLY? 14 A. YOU READ IT CORRECTLY. THAT WAS IN 1978. 15 Q. ALL RIGHT. MR. COATS, YOU RESENTED THE OSHA 16 PEOPLE COMING OUT THERE ALL THE TIME MEDDLING IN YOUR 17 BUSINESS? 18 A. NO, DID NOT. 19 MR. WAH: OBJECTION; ARGUMENTATIVE. 20 THE COURT: OVERRULED. 21 MR. HAROWITZ: . 22 Q SIR, DID YOU EVER RESENT DR. SELIKOFF AND HIS 23 MT. SINAI GROUP? 24 A. ABSOLUTELY NOT. 25 Q. YOU ALREADY TOLD US THAT YOU REFERRED TO HIM 26 AS THE INFAMOUS DR. SELIKOFF BEFORE AND YOU SAID THAT 27 WASN'T RIGHT, CORRECT? 28 A. THAT'S CORRECT. -DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011181 730 1 WHY DID YOU CAUL HIM THE INFAMOUS DR. SELIKOFF 2 WHEN I TOOK YOUR DEPOSITION IN 1992? ______ _____ ........ 3 A. WELL, I THINK YOU HAD ASKED ME A QUESTION AND 4 I CALLED HIM THE FAMOUS DR. SELIKOFF, AND THERE WAS SOME 5 QUESTION RIGHT AFTER THAT AND IN A FLIPPANT WAY WHICH I 6 HAVE APOLOGIZED FOR, I DID SAY INFAMOUS. 7 Q. AND THE REASON YOU CALLED HIM THE INFAMOUS 8 DR. SELIKOFF WAS BECAUSE HE WAS CREATING PROBLEMS FOR 9 YOUR INDUSTRY; ISN'T THAT RIGHT, SIR? 10 A. WELL, I BELIEVE THAT I WAS WORE CLOSELY __ 11 ASSOCIATED WITH THAT LETTER THAT WE REQUESTED IN JANUARY 12 OF '75 FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRIAL SAFETY 13 REGARDING PREVIOUS, REGARDING EMPLOYEES OF PACIFIC 14 ASBESTOS, AND THEN WHEN WE FOUND THAT NONE OF THOSE WERE 15 CITED OR CALLED IN HAD THESE DISEASES, THAT WAS MS ONLY 16 CONTACT WITH DR. SELIKOFF OTHER THAN HEARING ABOUT HIM 17 AND KNOWING THAT HE WAS AN AUTHORITY ON THE INSULATION 18 WORKERS. 19 Q. DIDN'T YOU TALK ABOUT HIM AT THE ASBESTOS 20 INFORMATION ASSOCIATION MEETINGS? 21 A. YES, I DID. 22 Q. YOU TALKED WITH OTHER PEOPLE IN THE INDUSTRY 23 ABOUT HOW HE WAS CREATING PROBLEMS FOR THE ASBESTOS 24 INDUSTRY, HAVEN'T YOU, SIR? 25 A. THERE WAS DISCUSSIONS OF THAT NATURE, YES. 26 Q AND IT WAS THE ATTITUDE, YOUR ATTITUDE THAT 27 DR. SELIKOFF WAS BEING PAID BY THE UNIONS, CORRECT? 28 A. HE WAS. DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 ' PID00011182 731 1 Q. AND HE WAS TELLING PEOPLE THEY WERE SICK WHEN 2 THEY WEREN'T SICK? _ _____ _____ .. _______ ___ 3 A. THAT IS CORRECT. 4 Q. THAT WAS YOUR OPINION WHEN YOU RAN THAT MINE 5 AND MILL? 6 A. THAT IS CORRECT, BASED ON THE INFORMATION THAT 7 WE HAD. 8 Q. OKAY. SO WHEN YOU SAY WELL-RESPECTED, YOU 9 DIDN'T RESPECT HIM AT THAT TIME? 10 A. I HAVE RESPECTED HIM FOR THAT HE WAS AN __ 11 AUTHORITY ON ASBESTOS-RELATED DISEASES. 12 Q NOW, MR. COATS, I 'VE HAD A LOT OF DOCTORS ON 13 the stand, h r . coats, you have some strong feelings 14 ABOUT REGULATION AND INDUSTRY, DON'T YOU, SIR? 15 A. I THINK I DO, YES. . 16 Q. AND YOU DID BACK AT THE TIME THAT YOU WERE 17 RUNNING THE CALAVERAS MINE AND MILL, CORRECT? 18 A. I BELIEVE, YES. 19 Q. OKAY. AND YOU LET THOSE FEELINGS BE KNOWN TO 20 OTHERS BY WAY OF SPEECHES, DIDN'T YOU? 21 A. I DON'T RECALL. 22 Q. DO YOU RECALL GIVING A SPEECH AT UNIVERSITY OF 23 NEVADA, RENO IN 1979 FOR THE MINERAL INDUSTRY MANAGEMENT 24 .GROUP? 25 A. NO I DON'T. 26 MR. HAROWITZ: .YOUR HONOR, MAX I HAVE MARKED 27 ACTUALLY TWO DOCUMENTS, ONE IS A JANUARY -- IT'S A 28 DOCUMENT SHORT COURSE ANNOUNCEMENT, JANUARY 17, 1979. DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011183 734 1 Q. CONSUMER PRODUCT SAFETY COMMISSION? 2 A. YES, PROBABLY CONSUMER PRODUCT SAFETY... ... 3 COMMISSION. 4 Q. AND THEN YOU GO ON TO TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE 5 COST TO INDUSTRY GENERATED BY THESE PARTICULAR 6 REGULATORY AGENCIES, CORRECT? ! ' 7 A. YES. YOU WISH ME TO CONTINUE READING THIS? 8 Q . PLEASE. 9 A- YEAH. "23 MAN DAYS OF GOVERNMENT INSPECTION. 10 DIRECTOR" -- I GUESS THAT MEANS OUR DIRECTOR OF 11 ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS SPENDS THAT. "$500,000 ON 12 ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATION FIVE PERCENT OF OUR SALES GO 13 GOES TO ENVIRONMENTALYRELATED PROJECTS." 14 Q. NOW, DOWN AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE IT TALKS 15 ABOUT THAT YOU THOUGHT THESE REGULATORY AGENCIES, WHAT 16 IMPACT YOU THOUGHT THEY WOULD HAVE UPON YOUR COMPANY. 17 YOU SEE THAT, THE LAST TWO LINES GOING OVER TO THE 18 FOLLOWING PAGE? 19 A. "WE WILL EXPECT" -- IS THAT WHERE YOU WISH ME 20 TO START? 21 Q. YES, PLEASE. 22 A. "WE EXPECT TO BE HERE FOR SEVERAL MORE YEARS 23 IF GOVERNMENT REGULATION DOESN'T DO US IN. WE ARE 24 CONSTANTLY PELTED WITH" -- . 25 Q. IS THAT "SETTLED"? . 26 MR. WAH: HE SAID "PELTED" 27 MR. HAROWITZ: EXCUSE ME. THANK YOU. 28 A . -- "WATER POLLUTION, NOISE OSHA, EPA, MSHA, DEBORAH L- NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011186 735 1 OOP, HEALTH, WELFARE. I DOUBT IF EVERYTHING IS AS BAD 2 AS OUR GOVERNMENT WOULD LIKE US TO BELIEVE. THE 3 GREATEST DANGER FACES IS THE DANGER PERPETRATED BY THESE 4 DOOMOLOGISTS," AS I CALLED THEM. "POSSIBLY WITHOUT EVEN 5 REALIZING WHAT THEY ARE DOING THEY ARE CONTRIBUTING TO 6 THE" -- A WORD I CAN'T READ, "REGARDING THE FREE 7 ENTERPRISE SYSTEM. THEY ARE A DANGER TO OUR 8 SOCIOECONOMIC SYSTEM AND REAL DANGER TO THE PEOPLE THEY 9 PROFESS TO BE PROTECTING, THE CONSUMER." 10 Q, OKAY. AND THEN FINALLY, AND I'M NOT GOING T0_ 11 HAVE YOU READ THIS, DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR MEMORY? 12 A. I'M SURE I NEVER GAVE THAT AS A SPEECH. I MAY 13 HAVE BEEN INVITED TO DO IT. THESE WERE MY NOTES AND 14 THIS IS WHAT I WOULD HAVE SAID. 15 Q. THAT IS YOUR OPINION AT THE TIME? 16 A. YES. . . 17 Q. YOU TALK ABOUT DDT AND SUGGEST REGULATIONS 18 REGARDING DDT WERE NOT WELL-FOUNDED, CORRECT? 19 A. I DON'T KNOW WHERE THAT IS. 20 Q. WELL, IF YOU LOOK AT THE BOTTOM OF THAT PAGE 21 WHERE IT SAYS, "YOU ALL REMEMBER DDT." . 22 MR. HAROWITZ: MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR? 23 THE COURT: YOU MAY. 24 MR. HAROWITZ: 25 Q. IT SAYS, "YOU ALL REMEMBER DDT, IT KILLED THE 26 INSECTS THAT RAVAGED GRAIN FIELDS"; DO YOU REMEMBER 27 THAT -- I THINK YOU'RE ON THE WRONG PAGE -- RIGHT THERE 28 YOU DON'T HAVE TO READ THAT. DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 5703 PID00011187 736 1 A. NO. 2 Q. THAT WAS YOUR POSITION ALSO AT THE TIME THAT 3 THE REGULATION OF DDT WAS NOT WELL FOUNDED? 4 A. THAT'S PROBABLY RIGHT AT THAT TIME. 5 Q. OKAY. 6 MR. HAROWITZ; YOUR HONOR, I'M ABOUT TO MOVE 7 INTO ANOTHER AREA. 8 THE COURT: IT WOULD BE A GOOD TIME TO TAKE A 9 BREAK. W E 'LL TAKE A 15-MINUTE BREAK. PLEASE COME BACK 10 AT 12:35. PLEASE REMEMBER THE ADMONITION WHICH IS THAT 11 YOU ARE NOT TO DISCUSS THIS CASE WITH ANYONE, EITHER 12 AMONG YOURSELVES OR WITH ANY OTHER PERSON AT THIS TIME. 13 RECESS TAKEN 14 THE COURT: THE RECORD SHOULD REFLECT THAT ALL 15 JURORS ARE PRESENT. 16 MR. HAROWITZ, YOU MAY RESUME WHEN READY. 17 MR. HAROWITZ: 18 Q. MR. COATS, YOU TOLD US ON DIRECT EXAMINATION 19 YOU MADE EFFORTS TO INFORM YOUR EMPLOYEES OF ANY ILLNESS 20 THAT MIGHT HAVE DEVELOPED IN EXAMS THAT WERE DONE; IS 21 THAT RIGHT? 22 A. YES. 23 Q WHO IS BILL RUTHERFORD? 24 A. BILL RUTHERFORD WAS A PERSONNEL DIRECTOR WHO 25 HAD WORKED IN THE MILL AND WHO ASSISTED ON OCCASION SOME 26 MONITORING OF MILL EMPLOYEES. 27 Q. OKAY. 28 MR. HAROWITZ: YOUR HONOR, MAY I HAVE MARKED DEBORAH L.' NEVILLE CSR 97 03 PID00011188 737 1 NEXT IN ORDER A MAX 16, 1969 LETTER FROM BILL RUTHERFORD 2 TO GORDON COATS. 3 THE COURT: THAT WILL BE 63. AND I'M SORRY, 4 YOU SAY IT IS A LETTER? 5 (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 63 MARKED FOR 6 i d e n t i f i c a t i o n .) 7 MR. HAROWITZ: MAY I APPROACH? 8 THE COURT: YOU MAY. 9 THE WITNESS: THANK YOU. 10 MR. HAROWITZ: , , _ 11 Q. YOU'RE WELCOME. WHY DON'T YOU TAKE A LOOK AND 12 SEE IF YOU RECOGNIZE THAT LETTER. 13 A. YES. HE WAS THE PERSONNEL GUY AT THIS TIME. 14 Q. AND THAT WAS A LETTER THAT YOU RECEIVED FROM 15 MR. RUTHERFORD IN MAY OF 1979? 16 A. YES. 17 MR. HAROWITZ: YOUR.HONOR, I'D LIKE TO DISPLAY 18 THIS TO THE JURY. 19 THE COURT: OBJECTION? 20 MR. WAH: NO OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. 21 MR. HAROWITZ: 22 Q. MR. GORDON A. COATS, PRESIDENT. 23 "DEAR GORDON, SUBJECT OF THIS LETTER IS 24 CURRENT LACK OF COMMUNICATION BETWEEN OUR HEALTH AND 25 SAFETY DEPARTMENT AND OUR EMPLOYEES. WHILE GOING 26 THROUGH MY PERSONNEL FILE, I FOUND ON THE RADIOLOGIST'S 27 REPORT WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN A SERIOUS HEALTH PROBLEM. I 28 HAVE SINCE HAD THIS PROBLEM CLINICALLY CHECKED WITH DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 P1D00011189 738 1 NEGATIVE RESULTS. THE RADIOLOGISTS STATES THAT THE 2 PROBLEM FIRST STARTED TWO YEARS AGO. I LEARNED ABOUT IT 3 TWO WEEKS AGO. THIS TIME THE PROBLEM WASN'T SERIOUS BUT 4 IT COULD HAVE BEEN JUST THE OPPOSITE. WHAT WOULD HAVE 5 HAPPENED IF I HAD A HEART ATTACK OR A STROKE? OUR 6 HEALTH AND SAFETY DEPARTMENT RECEIVES A RADIOLOGIST 7 REPORT ON ALL EMPLOYEES AS A PART OF THE ANNUAL 8 PHYSICAL. I FEEL THAT ANY ADVERSE INFORMATION CONTAINED 9 IN THAT REPORT SHOULD BE DISCUSSED WITH THE EMPLOYEE 10 INVOLVED AND THAT THE EMPLOYEE SHOULD BE REFERRED TO HIS 11 OWN DOCTOR. IF ONE OF OUR EMPLOYEES WERE TO SUFFER A 12 MEDICAL DISABILITY BECAUSE WE FAILED TO REPORT A PROBLEM 13 FOUND DURING THE ANNUAL PHYSICAL, I AM SURE THAT WE 14 COULD BE HELD RESPONSIBLE. ALSO, THE SCHEDULING OF 15 PHYSICALS SHOULD BE ON A REGULAR BASIS. I HAD MY FIRST 16 PHYSICAL WHEN I STARTED IN JANUARY OF 1976, THE SECOND 17 IN JULY OR AUGUST OF 1977 AND THE.LAST IN MARCH OF 18 1979. AS YOU CAN SEE, THIS IS FAR FROM A REGULAR ANNUAL 19 BASIS. THANK YOU, FOR YOUR TIME. BILL RUTHERFORD. " 20 MR. COATS, IT WOULD SUGGEST THAT THE 21 COMMUNICATION BETWEEN YOUR MEDICAL AND HEALTH DEPARTMENT 22 EMPLOYEES WASN'T AS QUITE AS GOOD AS YOU MADE OUT; IS 23 THAT CORRECT? . 24 A. ACCORDING TO THIS, NOT ON THIS OCCASION. I 25 WILL SAY BILL RUTHERFORD WAS STARTING TO DO HXS JOB 26 PROPERLY BECAUSE HE WAS IN CHARGE OF PERSONNEL AND HE 27 WAS PARTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SCHEDULING OF THESE 28 MEDICAL REPORTS. SO I THINK HE DID A GOOD JOB OF DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011190 739 1 ALERTING ME TO THIS AND WE TOOK CARE OF THAT. 2 Q. THIS IS 1979, YOU HAD ALREADY BEEN IN BUSINESS_____ 3 FOR THREE YEARS, CORRECT? 4 A. YES, WE HAD. 5 Q. AND AS YOU SAID, THE BUCK STOPS HERE, CORRECT? 6 A. THAT'S RIGHT. 1 7 Q so IT WOULD BE YOUR RESPONSIBILITY; IS THAT 8 CORRECT? 9 A. AND IT WAS, AND WE STRAIGHTENED IT OUT. 10 Q. NOW, WHEN YOU BEGAN THIS COMPANY, YOU PUT ; 11 TOGETHER A GROUP OF INVESTORS FROM THE UNITED STATES AND 12 GERMANY, CORRECT? 13 A. YES. . 14 Q. AND ONE OF THINGS THAT YOU TOLD THEM TO MAKE 15 THE INVESTMENT MORE PALATABLE WAS THAT YOU HAD A DEAL 16 WITH J-M WHERE THEY WERE GOING TO BUY A SUBSTANTIAL 17 AMOUNT OF THE FIBER THAT YOU PRODUCED, CORRECT? 18 A. THAT'S CORRECT. 19 Q. AND THAT WAS IN PLACE THE DAY YOU OPENED THE 20 MINE, THAT AGREEMENT WITH J-M? 21 A. YES. . 22 Q. AND IN FACT, YOU DID SELL A SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT 23 OF YOUR FIBER TO THE JOHNS-MANSVILLE PLANT IN STOCKTON ' 24 OVER THE YEARS? 25 A. WE SOLD, FOR A SMALL COMPANY, AN AMOUNT WHICH 26 WAS MINUSCULE IN THE EYES OF J-M, HOWEVER. 27 Q. YOU SAY AS A SMALL COMPANY; IS THAT RIGHT? 28 A. YES, WE WERE A SMALL COMPANY. DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 P1D00011191 740 1 Q. WEREN'T YOU THE LARGEST ASBESTOS MINE AND MILL 2 IN THE UNITED STATES? __ 3 A. WE WERE THE ONLY REAL ASBESTOS MINE AND MILL 4 IN THE UNITED STATES, WHICH WAS ABOUT ONE-TWENTIETH THE 5 SIZE OF J-M MINE. 6 Q. DID YOU TELL YOUR CUSTOMERS, QUOTE, "CALAVERAS 7 ASBESTOS IS LOCATED IN SOUTHEASTERN CALAVERAS COUNTY, 8 CALIFORNIA SOME 45 MILES EAST OF STOCKTON. IT IS THE 9 LARGEST ASBESTOS MINE/KILL IN THE UNITED STATES"? 10 A. THAT'S TRUE. ^ 11 Q. OKAY. AND YOUR PRODUCTION WHEN YOU BEGAN IN 12 1976 WAS 24,000 TONS OF FIBER? 13 A. THAT'S CORRECT. 14 Q THAT'S AFTER YOU TAKE THE ORE AWAY, THAT'S 15 JUST SEPARATE ASBESTOS FIBER? 16 A. THAT'S RIGHT. 17 Q. BY 1983, THAT HAD GROWN TO 44,000 TONS OF 18 ASBESTOS FIBER? 19 A. THAT WAS OUR HIGHEST PRODUCTION YEAR. 20 Q. OKAY. AND THEN WHEN YOU OPENED THE MINE, YOU 21 HAD ABOUT 120 EMPLOYEES? 22 A. AT THE START. 23 Q. AND THAT GREW BY 1980 TO 220 EMPLOYEES? 24 A. FOR ABOUT ONE YEAR, YES. 25 Q. YOU SOLD FIBER WORLDWIDE? 26 A. WELL, EXPORT TO THE ORIENT. 27 Q. WELL, TO JAPAN? 28 A. JAPAN. DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011192 1 Q. KOREA? 2 A. KOREA. 3 Q. TAIWAN? 4 A. TAIWAN. 5 Q. INDIA? 741 .. j...... . ...... 6 A. INDIA. ; 7 Q. A LOT OF FIBER TO MEXICO? 8 A. FIBER TO MEXICO. 9 Q. MALAYSIA? 10 .A. THAILAND. 11 Q. AND THE UNITED STATES? 12 A. AND THE UNITED STATES. 13 Q. ALL RIGHT. NOW, YOUR SAFETY AND HEALTH 14 DEPARTMENT THAT YOU DESCRIBED, IS IT CORRECT THAT THEY 15 WOULD KEEP UP ON THE MEDICAL LITERATURE OVER THE YEARS 16 WHILE YOU WERE OPERATING THE MINE? 17 A. YES, THEY WOULD. 18 Q. AND THEY WOULD PASS THAT INFORMATION ON TO 19 YOU? 20 A. WELL, I WOULDN'T SAY THAT THEY PASSED 21 EVERYTHING ON TO ME. 22 . WELL, DID THEY PASS MEDICAL INFORMATION ON TO 23 YOU? 24 A. WOULD YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN WHAT THE DEFINITION 25 OF MEDICAL INFORMATION IS. 26 Q. WELL, INFORMATION ABOUT THE HAZARDS OF 27 ASBESTOS, LET'S SAY. 28 A. OH, YEAH. DEBORAH' L . NEVILLE CSR 97 03 PID00011193 1 2 3 4 5 ; 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 . 14'2 Q. THAT CAME TO SOU? A. . SES. MR. HAROWITZ: ... ..... ........ .... ........ .. . MAY I HAVE MARKED AS NEXT IN ORDER AN ARTICLE ENTITLED "RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN EXPOSURE TO ASBESTOS, ALCOHOL, GENERAL FORMATION FERRUGINOUS BODIES AND CARCINOMA" BY EARL S. FLOWERS. THE COURT: THAT WILL BE PLAINTIFF'S 64. (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 64 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) MR. HAROWITZ: AND THE PUBLICATION DATE ON ...... THIS IS NOVEMBER 19, 1974. AND MAY I APPROACH? THE COURT: YOU MAY. MR. HAROWITZ: Q. MR. COATS, I 'M GOING TO HAND YOU EXHIBIT 64. A. THANK YOU, Q. AND I'LL ASK YOU IF THAT IS FAMILIAR TO YOU. A, I DO NOT RECALL THIS ARTICLE. I 'VE NEVER SEEN IT. Q. NEVER SEEN IT. ; IF I TOLD YOU THAT WAS IN YOUR FILES, THE FILES OF CALAVERAS ASBESTOS, WOULD THAT SURPRISE YOU? A. NO, NOT AT ALL, Q. OKAY. WOULD YOU TURN TO PAGE 727 OF THE ARTICLE. MR. WAH: YOUR HONOR, MAY WE APPROACH? (COUNSEL APPROACH THE BENCH.) MR. HAROWITZ: OKAY. I GUESS I'M NOT GOING TO AND ASK ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS ARTICLE. DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011194 143 Q. NOW, MR. COATS, WAS ONE OF THE REASONS THAT 1 2 YOU k e p t t o u r m i n e a n d m i l l a s c l e a n a s y o u c o u l d , a n d 3 h a d "i n s t a l l e d a l l o f t h i s e q u i p m e n t , t h e s a f e t y 4 EQUIPMENT, TO KEEP DOWN THE COST OF WORKERS 5 COMPENSATION? A. NO. THE PURPOSE WAS TO HAVE A HEALTHFUL PLACE 6 7 IN WHICH TO WORK. g Q. WELL, YOU KNEW THAT IF ONE OF YOUR WORKERS GOT 9 SICK, YOU WOULD BE RESPONSIBLE TO THEM IN A WORKERS' 10 COMPENSATION ACTION, DIDN 'T YOU? ....... ....... - - A. ABSOLUTELY. THAT'S THE PURPOSE OF WORKERS' 11 12 COMPENSATION. Q AND WORKERS* COMPENSATION PREMIUMS ARE 13 14 AFFECTED BY IF PEOPLE BECOME ILL, AREN'T THEY? A. YOU BREAK YOUR LEG OR SMASH YOUR FINGER. 15 16 Q. OR DEVELOP ASBESTOSIS? . 17 A. RIGHT. Q. AND THE PREMIUMS THAT WERE BEING PAID WAS AN 18 19 AREA OF CONCERN FOR YOU BECAUSE IT COST MONEY? A. WELL, I'D SAY YEAH BECAUSE YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR COSTS DOWN. Q. LET ME TURN TO THE ISSUE OF THE PACKAGING AND THE BAGS THAT WERE USED BY CALAVERAS. HOW, YOU'VE TOLD THE JURY THAT YOU DIDN'T HAVE A STRETCH-WRAP MACHINE AT CALAVERAS WHEN YOU WERE OPERATING THE FACILITY. A. NOT THAT I KNOW OF. Q, SO IF SOMEBODY CAME HERE AND TOLD THIS JURY THAT HAD THEY RECEIVED ASBESTOS THAT CAME IN A CALAVERAS DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011195 . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 b a g t h a t c a m e o n p a l l e t s t h a t w e w e r e s t r e t c h -w r a p p e d , 744 THAT WOULD BE MISTAKEN; IS THAT CORRECT?______ ___ _____ h ]. TO t h e b e s t o f m y k n o w l e d g e , t h e y m i g h t h a v e BEEN THINKING OF SOME OTHER FACILITY. Q. WHAT YOU HAD WAS SHRINK-WRAP? A. YES. ; Q auo THAT'S SEALED ALL THE WAY AROUND? A. YES. Q. AND WHEN DID YOU GET THAT SHRINK-WRAP MACHINE? A. IT WAS ONE OF THE ASSETS PURCHASED ORIGINALLY. Q. DO YOU RECALL IN 1979 AN INCIDENT WHERE BAGS OF ASBESTOS WERE DELIVERED TO THE CERTAINTEED COMPANY IN A TERRIBLE STATE AND YOU RECEIVED SOME COMMUNICATION ABOUT THOSE BAGS? A. NO, I DON'T. MR. HAROWITZ! . MAY I HAVE MARKED NEXT IN ORDER A MARCH 2, 1979 LETTER FROM C. H. STRIEGEL S-T-R-I-E-G-E-L, AND ADDITIONALLY A LETTER AS, I GUESS NEXT IN ORDER, OF MARCH 9, 1979 FROM MR. COATS TO MR. STRIEGEL. THE COURT*. THAT WILL BE PLAINTIFF'S 65 AND 66 RESPECTIVELY. {PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBITS 65 AND 66 m a r k e d f o r i d e n t i f i c a t i o n .) MR. HAROWITZ: MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR? THE COURT: YOU MAY. THE WITNESS; THANK YOUMR. HAROWITZ: SURE. DEBORAH L- NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011196 q . I THINK if I MIGHT SUGGEST 65 IS THE LETTER 1 2 TRAT I FIRST REFERRED TO. ... ...... 3 A YES. Q. DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR MEMORY OF THAT 4 145 " 5 INCIDENT? 6 A. RIGHT. ` Q. WHAT HAPPEHEDTHERE, MR. COATS? 7 A. THIS WAS ARAIL CAR THAT WAS SENT FROM OUR 8 FACILITY TO RIVERSIDE, CALIFORNIA, A PLACE CALLED 9 CRESMORE, AS I RECALL. AND EVEN THOUGH OTHER CARS 10 ---- ARRIVED IN GOOD CONDITION, THIS ONE APPARENTLY MUST HAVE 11 BEEN BANGED AROUND PRETTY BADLY BECAUSE HE REFERS TO 12 BAGS HAVING FALLEN OFF OF THE PALLETS AND SOME BAGS WERE 13 ACTUALLY r i p p e d OPEN. AND HE WROTE, THIS WAS NOT TO ME, 14 THIS WAS WRITTEN TO OUR AGENT WHO PASSED IT ON TO ME. 15 RHD WE CERTAINLY INQUIRED AT THE TIME WITH TOPEKA AND 16 SANTA FE AS TO THE CONDITION OF WHAT MIGHT HAVE 17 HAPPENED. AND FROM THEN ON WE DID SHRINKrWRAP 18 EVERYTHING THAT WENT TO THE CERTAINTEED CORPORATION19 Q. THIS SHIPMENT, WASN'T THAT SHRINK-WRAPPED? A. THEY HAD NOT REQUESTED IT UNTIL THAT DAY. Q. YOU DIDN'T DO IT OR DID YOU EVER SHRINK-WRAP UNLESS THEY REQUESTED IT AND PAID FOR IT? A. THAT'S RIGHT. THAT WAS THE POLICY OF THE INDUSTRY PRACTICE. Q. AND IN THIS LETTER FROM - BY STRIEGEL, MARCH 2ND, 1979, HE'S COMPLAINING ABOUT THE FACT THAT IT WAS A REAL HEALTH HAZARDS T HAVE THESE GO OUT N O T ______ _ OEQHAH L . NEVILLE CSR 9703 P1D00011197 746 1 SHRINK-WRAPPED? 2 A. THAT'S RIGHT. . _ __ ^__________ ___ __~ ____ Q. AND THEN YOU FOLLOWED UP WITH A MARCH 9, 1979, 3 4 LATER s a y i n g i f t h e y w a n t e d t h e m s h r i n k -w r a p p e d , t h e n 5 THEY CAN ASK FOR IT TO BE SHRINK WRAPPED, CORRECT? 6 A. YES. WELL, THEY KNEW THAT AHEAD OF TIME. 7 Q. THEN THERE WAS ANOTHER INCIDENT, MR. COATS, 8 WHEN THERE WAS A TRUCK THAT CAME FROM CALAVERAS AND 9 TURNED OVER ON ITS WAY TO THE PORT? 10 A. DOWN TOWARDS OAKDALE. 11 Q. REMEMBER THAT? ' ' .., 12 A. YES. q NOW, THOSE BAGS WERE NOT SHRINK-WRAPPED OR 13 14 STRETCH-WRAPPED, WERE THEY? 15 A, NO, THEY WERE NOT. 16 Q THEY WERE JUST ON THE TRUCK, AND WHEN THE 17 TRUCK TURNED OVER, THE BAGS WENT ALL OVER THE PLACE, 18 DIDN'T THEY? 19 A. THOSE -- YES, TO ANSWER IT. SOME BAGS FELL 20 OFF THE TRUCK AND THE TRUCK TIPPED OVER. YES. 21 Q AND THERE WAS A NEWSPAPER ARTICLE ABOUT THAT, 22 AND ALSO A BIG PICTURE OF THE TRUCK LOAD OF BAGS ON THE 23 ROADWAY? A. THAT'S TRUE. Q. NOTHING HOLDING THOSE BAGS SECURELY ON THE PALLETS WHEN THEY WERE SHIPPED? MR. WAH; OBJECTION; MISSTATES HIS TESTIMONY. THE COURT: , OVERRULED. DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011198 7 47 t h e w i t n e s s *, t h e y w e r e n o t s h r i n k -w r a p p e d . 1 2 MR. HARQW1TZ: ..... .. ... ......... q . NOR WERE THEY STRETCH-WRAPPED? 3 4 A. NO, THEY WERE NOT. Q. NOW, MR. COATS, YOU TOLD US THAT WITH RESPECT 5 TO THE BAG WHICH IS IDENTIFIED AS EXHIBIT 21, THE BROWN 6 PAPER BAG, THE ONE THAT HAS JOKNS-MANSVILLE PRODUCTS 7 8 CORPORATION ON THE BACK. THE JOBNS-MANVILLE ART 9 DEPARTMENT CREATED THE LOGO AND THE INFORMATION THE INFORMATION BUT THE STENCILING ON t h i s BAG? : --10 A. NO, I DON'T THINK I SAID THEY DESIGNED IT. 11 12 I -- ' 13 Q I'M SORRY. A. THEY WERE THE ONES WHO DID THE LAYOUT. 14 Q. BUT IT WAS PEOPLE AT CALAVERAS WHO DESIGNED 15 16 THE LOGO? A. WE CAME UP WITH THE IDEA OF THE C AND THE 17 18 GRADE. Q AND YOU TOLD THEM WHAT TO PUT ON THE BAG, WHAT 19 INFORMATION TO PUT ON THE BAG? A. YES, WE DID. Q. AND YOU SAID THAT YOU HAD TO APPROVE IT, SO WHATEVER WAS 0 THE BAG, IF YOU DIDN'T M A E II, YOU WERE FREE t o TELL THEM THAT'S NOT WHAT I WANTED? A. I COULD HAVE. . , q . FOR INSTANCE, IF YOU FOUND THAI THIS GRADE 4T WAS TOO LARGE, YOU COULD TELL THEM WE DON'T NEED THAT? A. I COULD HAVE. DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011199 748 Q THAT WAS IMPORTAMT INFORMATION, THAT GRADE,4T? 1 A. EVERYTHING ON THIS BAG IS IMPORTANT, YES, SIR. 2 ..... q , w h e n A WORKER IS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT 3 4 KIND OF ASBESTOS TO PUT INTO A PARTICULAR BATCH OR A 5 TRANSITE PIPE, THEY'RE GOING TO LOOK FOR THAT 4T, THAT'S 6 VERY IMPORTANT INFORMATION, CORRECT? 7 A. THAT'S CORRECT. 8 Q. SO YOU WANT TO PUT THAT IN BIG BOLD LETTERS; 9 IS THAT RIGHT? 10 A. WELL, THAT IS THE WAY WE SHOWED IT THERE, YES_. , Q. AND THE LOGO, CERTAINLY YOU WANT EVERYONE TO 11 12 KNOW THIS CAME FROM CALAVERAS ASBESTOS? 13 A. THAT'S TRUE. , Q AND THEN THE WEIGHT, THAT'S ANOTHER IMPORTANT 14 15 PIECE OF INFORMATION, 50 THAT'S IN BIG BOLD PRINT, 16 CORRECT? 17 A. THAT'S TRUE. 18 Q. CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT THE CAUTION SAYS? A. YES, IT SAYS EXACTLY WHAT WAS IN THE FEDERAL 19 20 REGISTER, WHICH WE ARE REQUIRED, WE WERE REQUIRED BY -- 21 PARDON ME, REQUIRED BY LAW TO PUT ON THE BAG. AND THE INDUSTRY STANDARD IS AS SHOWN THERE. WE COMPLIED WITH EVERY RULE, REGULATION AND LAW OF OUR GOVERNMENT. Q. SIR, CAN YOU READ THE CAUTION FROM WHERE YOU ARE RIGHT NOW? A. NO, I CANNOT READ IT. Q. YOU TELL ME WHEN I SHOULD STOP, WHEN YOU CAN READ THE CAUTION. CAN YOU READ IT NOW? DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011200 749 1 A. NO, I CAN'T READ IT. 2 Q. CAN YOU READ IT NOW? 3 A. IF I HAD MY OTHER GLASSES I PROBABLY COULD 4 READ IT. 5 0. FROM THIS POINT? 6 A. I'M GLANCING AT THE BAG. I CAN READ IT, SIR 7 Q. CAN YOU READ IT NOW? 8 A. IT TALKS ABOUT THE CAUTION. 9 Q. READ IT FOR ME, PLEASE. 10 A. I HAVE TO HAVE MY GLASSES ON._ __ 11 Q* GO AHEAD. 12 A. THESE ARE READING GLASSES NOW. 13 Q. HOW ABOUT -- 14 A "CONTAINS FIBERS. AVOID CREATING DUST. 15 BREATHING ASBESTOS DUST MY CAUSE SERIOUS BODILY HARM." 16 Q. I'M ABOUT, WHAT, A FOOT AWAY FROM YOU? 17 A. THREE FEET, L E T 'S SAY. 18 Q- L E T 'S SAY THREE FEET. CERTAINLY WHEN I WAS 19 FEET AWAY YOU COULDN'T READ IT; IS THAT RIGHT? 20 A. THAT'S TRUE. . . 21 Q. SIR, TELL ME WHERE IN THE FEDERAL REGULATIONS 22 IT SAYS THAT THE LABEL, THE CAUTION LABEL, HAS TO BE 23 THAT SIZE? 24 A. THIS WAS THE INDUSTRY STANDARD. THE FEDERAL 25 REGISTERS GAVE US THE WORDING THAT HAD TO BE IN IT, AND 26 EVERY ASBESTOS MANUFACTURER -- AND THIS WAS THROUGH THE 27 ASBESTOS INFORMATION ASSOCIATION, THEY GAVE US 28 GUIDELINES, AND EVERY ASBESTOS MANUFACTURER AROUND THE DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID0011201 750 1 WORLD FOLLOWED THOSE GUIDELINES 2 Q. MR. COATS, AM I CORRECT THAT THE FEDERAL 3 STANDARDS DID NOT SAY THAT THE LABEL SHOULD BE A 4 SPECIFIC SIZE? 5 A. I DO NOT BELIEVE THE STANDARD SAID IT HAD TO 6 BE A SPECIFIC SIZE. . ! 7 Q. WHAT THE STANDARD SAID, AND TELL ME IF THIS IS 8 REFRESHES YOUR MEMORY. "CAUTION LABELS REQUIRED BY 9 SUBSECTION SHALL BE CONSPICUOUS AND LEGIBLE AND SHALL 10 CONTAIN THE FOLLOWING OR EQUIVALENT WARNING"; DO YOU ^ 11 REMEMBER THAT AS BEING THE -- 12 A. THOSE SOUNDS LIKE THE WORDS. 13 Q. AND DO YOU THINK THIS IS CONSPICUOUS, 14 MR. COATS? 15 A. I THINK IF YOU'RE HANDLING A BAG OF ASBESTOS 16 THAT WOULD BE CONSPICUOUS. 17 Q. WHEN YOU'RE HANDLING A BAG OF ASBESTOS AND 18 YOU'RE WORKING AROUND SOMEONE WHO IS HANDLING A BAG OF 19 ASBESTOS? 20 A. I BELIEVE ANYONE WHO WOULD BE IN THAT 21 SITUATION WOULD HAVE HAD EXTENSIVE TRAINING ON THE 22 HANDLING OF ASBESTOS THERE AND THAT WE WOULD HAVE 23 POINTED OUT THE DANGERS TO THE PEOPLE FOR HANDLING RAW 24 ASBESTOS. 25 Q. DIDN'T YOU TELL US IT WAS IMPORTANT THAT THE 26 WORKER GET AS MUCH INFORMATION AS THEY CAN ABOUT THE 27 HAZARDS OF ASBESTOS SO THEY CAN PROTECT THEMSELVES? 28 A. ABSOLUTELY. DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 P1D00011202 751 1 Q. AMD WASN'T THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF PUTTING A 2 WARNING ON THE BAG TO PROVIDE SUCH INFORMATION TO THE 3 WORKERS? 4 A. IHAT WOULD BE ONE OF THE REASONS, YES. 5 Q. WHAT OTHER REASON WOULD THERE BE? 6 A. TO LET OTHER PEOPLE WHO MIGHT COME IN CONTACT, 7 EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE NOT A WORKER, MAYBE A TRUCKER OR 8 SOMEONE WHO IS IN THE BUSINESS. 9 Q. MR. COATS, TELL ME ONE REASON TO MAKE THE 10 WARNING LABEL ON THAT BAG AS SMALL AS THE PRINT . 11 CONTAINED ON THE BAG. . 12 A. THE ONE REASON WAS THE INDUSTRY STANDARD. 13 EVERYONE IN THE INDUSTRY PRODUCED BAGS WITH STANDARD 14 LETTERING AND SIZE. 15 Q. AND THAT MADE IT OKAY? 16 A. AND THAT MADE IT OKAY, YES. NOW, IF I WERE TO 17 DO IT AGAIN AFTER HEARING YOU AND ALL THAT I LEARNED IN 18 THESE YEARS, I PROBABLY, AFTER LISTENING TO YOUR LOGIC, 19 I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE MADE IT LARGER. 20 q. BECAUSE THEN PEOPLE WOULD SEE IT? 21 A. THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN -- WOULD HAVE SEEN IT 22 FROM THAT DISTANCE BETTER THAN I WAS ABLE TO SEE IT. 23 Q. ALL RIGHT. LET'S TALK ABOUT THE WORDING 24 THAT'S ON THE BAG. IT SAYS "CONTAINS ASBESTOS FIBERS, 25 AVOID CREATING DUST." 26 NOW, YOU'VE TOLD US ALREADY THAT YOU CAN 'T SEE 27 FIVE FIBERS PER CUBIC CENTIMETER, RIGHT? 28 A. RIGHT. DEBORAH L. NEVILLE' CSR 9703 PID00011203 752 1 Q. SO, IF YOU'RE WORKING IN AN ENVIRONMENT THAT 2 HAS FIVE FIBERS PER CUBIC CENTIMETER OR LESS, YOU CAN'T 3 SEE ANY ASBESTOS IN THE AIR? 4 A. NO, YOU WOULD NOT. , 5 Q. SO HOW WOULD YOU KNOW IF YOU'RE CREATING 6 DANGEROUS LEVELS OF ASBESTOS DUST IF YOU CAN'T SEE IT? 7 A. ONLY BECAUSE THE MANAGEMENT HAD A POLICY OF 8 MONITORING THE WORK AREAS, AND THEY KNOW WHAT THE 9 STANDARDS ARE AND WHAT THE ALLOWABLE LIMITS ARE. 10 Q. SO THIS IS THE BAG THAT YOU PUT YOOR PRODUCT 11 OUT IN, CORRECT? 12 A. YES. 13 Q. DID YOU FEEL THAT ONCE THE PRODUCT LEFT YOUR 14 MILL AND WENT TO A CUSTOMER THAT YOU WERE NO LONGER 15 RESPONSIBLE FOR IT? 16 A. YES, I DID, BECAUSE THEY HAD PURCHASED THE 17 PRODUCT, IT MET ALL THE SPECIFICATIONS, THEY WERE 18 EXPERTS AT HANDLING THE FIBER, THE MANUFACTURE, AND SO 19 THEY WOULD BE THE ONES WHO WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE 20 HANDLING AFTER IT LEFT OUR MILL. 21 Q. YOU DIDN'T USE A DIFFERENT BAG TO SEND TO 22 JAPAN OR TO MALAYSIA, DID YOU? 23 A. NO. WE USE THE SAME BAGS. 24 Q. IT WASN'T ONLY JOHNS-MANSVILLE WHO WAS USING i 25 THIS PRODUCT, WAS IT? 26 j A. NO, IT IS OTHER LARGE COMPANIES THAT MADE 27 PIPE. 28 Q. ALL RIGHT. THE LOGO GOES ON TO SAY, DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011204 1 "BREATHING ASBESTOS DUST MAY CAUSE SERIOUS BODILY 753 2 HARM." 3 MR. COATS, IN 1975 WHEN YOU DECIDED -- WERE 4 MAKING THE DECISION WHETHER TO BUY THIS MINE AND MILL OR 5 NOT, AT THAT TIME YOU KNEW ASBESTOS COULD CAUSE 6 MESOTHELIOMA? , . 7 A. YES. 8 Q. AND YOU KNEW THAT ASBESTOS COULD CAUSE LUNG 9 CANCER? 10 A YES. 11 Q. AND THAT ASBESTOSCOULD CAUSE ASBESTOSIS? 12 A. YES. 13 Q. WHEN YOU PUT ON THIS BAG "BREATHING ASBESTOS 14 DUST MAY CAUSE SERIOUS BODILY HARM," WHAT WAS YOUR 15 INTENT? 16 A. MY INTENT WAS TO FOLLOW THE LAWS OF THE UNITED 17 STATES OF AMERICA, SIR. THOSE ARE SPECIFIC WORDS 18 REQUIRED BY OSHA TO PUT ON THE BAG. 19 Q. REQUIRED BY OSHA? 20 A. THEY WERE NOT MY IN THE FEDERAL REGISTER, THEY 21 WERE PUT OUT -- 22 MR. HAROWITZ: MAY I HAVE MARKED AS NEXT IN 23 ORDER -- 24 THE WITNESS: -- THEY WERE NOT MY WORDS. 25 MR. HAROWITZ: EXCUSE ME. I'M SORRY. 26 Q THE INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS TITLE 8 -- EXCUSE ME 27 FROM 1976. 28 THE COURT: THAT'S 68. DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011205 754 (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 68 MARKED FOR 1 2 IDENTIFICATION.) _____ 3 MR. HAROWITZ: 4 Q. MR. COATS, LET ME JUST ASK YOU THIS: DID YOU 5 UNDERSTAND THAT YOU COULD NOT USE ANY INFORMATION, ANY 6 WORDING BEYOND THAT WHICH WAS CONTAINED IN THE FEDERAL 7 STANDARD, THE FEDERAL OSHA STANDARD? 8 A. I UNDERSTAND THAT BY LAW I WAS REQUIRED TO PUT 9 THAT WORDING ON EACH AND EVERY BAG. 10 Q, AT A MINIMUM? .... . ... -- 11 A. AT A MINIMUM. ~ 12 Q AND THERE WAS NOTHING IN THE REGULATIONS, 13 NOTHING THAT SAID YOU COULDN'T PUT CANCER ON THE BAG, 14 WAS THERE, SIR? 15 A. NO, THERE WAS NOT, BUT THAT CAME A FEW YEARS 16 LATER. 17 Q. RIGHT, IN 1963 (SIC) OR '90 -- 18 . A. AS A REGULATION OF FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. 19 Q. IN 1983 OR 1984, YOU STARTED TO USE THE WORDS 20 "CANCER" ON YOUR BAG; IS THAT RIGHT. 21 A. THAT'S CORRECT. 22 Q. NOT BEFORE THAT? 23 A. NOT BEFORE THAT. 24 o, AND YOU KNEW AS OF 1975 THAT ASBESTOS CAUSED CANCER, CORRECT? A. I KNEW THAT. Q. BUT YOU MADE THE DECISION THAT YOU WOULD JUST PUT THE MINIMUM AS REQUIRED BY THE GOVERNMENT ON YOUR DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011206 . I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 IO 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 BAG? IS THAT CORRECT? . A. I MADE TH DECISXOH THAT I WOULD PUT ON WERT 755' WAS REQUIRED BY THE LAW, AND I ALWAYS FOLLOWED THE LAW, AS DID OTHER MILLS AND MINES IN THE ASBESTOS INDUSTRY. Q. NOW, YOU TOLD US THERE WAS DISCUSSION OF ALTERNATIVE LABELS? IS THAT RIGHT? ' A. I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO. Q. I'M SORRY. THE ASBESTOS INFORMATION ASSOCIATION DISCUSSED ALTERNATIVE LABELS, THAT'S ONE OF THINGS THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT AT THESE MEETINGS? _ A. MANY AIA MEETING, YES, SIR. Q. AND NOT ONLY AT THE AIA, THERE WAS AN INTERNATIONAL BRANCH OF AIA, CORRECT? A. THAT WAS THE INTERNATIONAL AIA, YES. Q. AND IN FACT, YOU WEREN'T JUST A MEMBER OF AIA, YOU WERE A DIRECTOR OF THE AIA? A. NO, I WAS NEVER AN OFFICER. Q. YOU WERE NOT A DIRECTOR? A. NO. Q. OKAY. MR. HAROWITZ: MAY I HAVE MARKED NEXT IN ORDER -- THE WITNESS: .I DIDN'T KNOW I WAS. MR. HAROWITZ: -- A MARCH 12, 1980 RECORD OF BOARD OF DIRECTORS MEETING OF THE ASBESTOS INFORMATION ASSOCIATION. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THAT WILL BE 69 (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 69 MARKED FOR DEBORAH-L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011207 756 IDENTIFICATION.) 1 MR. HAROWXTZ: MAY X APPROACH, YOUR HONOR? ..... 2 3 THE COURT: YOU MAY. 4 THE WITNESS: THANK YOU. 5 MR. HAROWXTZ: SURE. TAKE A LOOK AT THE DIRECTORS WHO ATTENDED THIS : 6 Q- 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 MEETING. A. I GUESS EVERYBODY WHO ATTENDED WAS A DIRECTOR. I WAS THE REPRESENTATIVE OF CALAVERAS ASBESTOS. Q- . A. LISTED AS ONE THE DIRECTORS? . ^ IT DOES SAY THAT UP ABOVE, BOARD OF DIRECTORS MEETING. Q. YOU WOULD THEN GET THESE MINUTES FROM THE MEETING, CORRECT? . A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. THEY WOULD TALK ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON WITH OSHA, EPA, WITH CONGRESSIONAL SHIFTS REGARDING ASBESTOS? A. THAT'S TRUE. Q AND WITH DIFFERENTSTATES? A. CORRECT. q ONE OF THE DIFFERENT THINGS YOU TALKED ABOUT WAS WHAT OTHER STATES WERE DOING WITH LABELING? A. I DON'T RECALL THAT, BUT THAT'S VERY LIKELY, 24 YES. , Q. TAKE A LOOK AT PAGE 3, IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE. 25 26 A. PAGE THREE. 27 Q. THE BOTTOM, UNDER MASSACHUSETTS} YOU SEE THAT? 28 A. I SEE IT. | DEBORAH L. NEVILLE C5R 9703 PID00011208 757 1 Q. ND THERE'S REFERENCE THERE TO MASSACHUSETTS 2 ATTEMPTING TO INSTITUTE A LAW THAT WOULD REQUIRE THE 3 SKULL AND CROSSBONES ON ASBESTOS AS A WARNING LABEL; DO 4 YOU SEE THAT? 5 A. I SEE THAT. 6 Q. AND THEN CONNECTICUT ALSO CONSIDERED WHAT TO 7 DO ABOUT LABELING ASBESTOS, AND THIS WAS IN 1980. IT'S 8 THE BOTTOM OF PAGE THREE AND UP TO THE TOP OF PAGE FOUR; 9 YOU SEE THAT? 10 A. I SEE IT. 11 Q AND CONNECTICUT WAS GOING -- CONNECTICUT WAS 12 GOING TO REQUIRE A LABEL THAT SAYS THE ITEM CONTAINS 13 ASBESTOS AS a CAUSE OF CANCER WHEN INHALED, CORRECT? 14 A. THAT'S CORRECT. 15 Q. THAT'S ONE OF THINGS THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT AT 16 THE MEETING, AT LEAST IT WOULD REFLECT THAT WAS 17 SOMETHING THAT THE DIRECTORS TALKED ABOUT? 18 A. WE TALKED ABOUT ALL THOSE SORT OF SAFETY 19 ITEMS, CORRECT. 20 MR. HAROWITZ: AND MAY WE HAVE MARKED NEXT IN 21 ORDER A MAY 25, 1979, CORRESPONDENCE FROM JOHN H. MARSH 22 TO DIRECTORS. 23 24 (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 70 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 25 MR. HAROWITZ: MAY I APPROACH? 26 THE COURT: YES, YOU MAY. 27 THE WITNESS: THANK YOU. 28 MR. HAROWITZ: . . DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 P1D00011209 758 1 Q. WHO WAS MR. MARSH? 2 A. I DON'T SEE HIS TITLE, I DON'T KNOW. 3 Q. AT ANY RATE, YOU READ THIS DOCUMENT, IT WAS IN 4 YOUR FILES. 5 A. SURE. 6 Q. WOULD YOU TURN TO PAGE -- YOU KNOW, THIS IS 7 SET UP NOT WITH PASSAGES. 8 A. WELL, DO THE ITEMS -- 9 Q. PARAGRAPHS 4.13. 10 A. OKAY. YOU SEE, I CAN'T " _ ^ _ 11 Q. ACTUALLY 4.15.1.1. 12 A. OKAY -- 13 Q IT'S NOT THAT EITHER. LET Ml BACK UP. 14 WHAT IS AN A LOGO, QUOTE, A, CLOSE QUOTE, 15 LOGO? 16 A. I THINK THAT WAS A BLACK AND RED LOGO 17 SIGNIFYING ASBESTOS, WHICH WAS TO BE PLACED ON BAGS. 18 Q. WE'LL COME BACK TO THIS PAGE IN A MINUTE. AND 19 I'M SORRY FOR CONFUSING YOU. IF YOU GO DOWN A FEW 20 PAGES, YOU'LL SEE THE PASSAGES START TO GET NUMBERED. 21 A. ALL RIGHT. 22 Q. AND I WANT TO TURN TO PAGE 3. 23 A. ALL RIGHT. GOT IT. 24 Q. IT'S UNDER 3.3.1.5, SECOND ITEM FROM THE 25 BOTTOM. HAVE YOU READ THAT? 26 A. HOW FAR DID YOU WISH ME TO GO, SIR? 27 Q. I 'M SORRY, JUST THAT SECTION. 28 WHO IS THE EEC ADVISORY COUNCIL, DO YOU KNOW DEBORAH L. NEVILLE C3R 9703 PID00011210 159 1 WHO THAT IS? 2 A. THAT MUST BE THE EUROPEAN ECONOMICS COUNCIL OR 3 COMMITTEE. 4 Q. OF THE AIA? 5 A. OH, I DON'T KNOW. I THOUGHT EEC WOULD BE THE 6 EUROPEAN ECONOMICS COUNCIL BUT - 7 Q. MAYBE THIS WAS SOMETHING THAT CAME TOGETHER 8 WITH YOUR AIA MINUTES. SO DID YOU RECEIVE INFORMATION 9 FROM THE EEC ON OCCASION? 10 A. NO, I NEVER DID. BUT EXCUSE _ME, IF I MAXSA.Y 11 IF YOU READ IT, SHOULD THIS LABELING BECOME MANDATORY, 12 THEN ALL ASBESTOS FIBER COMING INTO THE EEC MEANING 13 IT SOUNDS LIKE IT'S A GROUP OF COUNTRIES, SO THAT'S WHY 14 I GOT THE IDEA IT WOULD BE THE EUROPEAN, LIKE THE COMMON 15 market, for example. 16 Q. AT ANY RATE, IT INDICATES THAT THIS IS A 17 SUBCOMMITTEE WORKING ON THE SUBJECT OF LABELING. 18 THEY'RE PROPOSING ALL BAGS OF ASBESTOS FIBER ARE 19 LABELED, AND THE PRESENT INTENTION IS TO DECLARE 20 ASBESTOS TOXIC WHICH WOULD AUTOMATICALLY REQUIRE THE 21 SKULL AND CROSS BONES WARNING LABEL. OUR OBJECTIVE IS 22 TO GAIN -- I HAVE QUOTE A CLOSE QUOTE SIGN OF ASBESTOS 23 IS A UNIQUE SUBSTANCE. 24 WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? 25 A. TO ME, THIS MEANS INSTEAD OF PUTTING ON LIKE 26 ON STRYCHNINE, YOUR RAT POISON, THE SKULL AND 27 CROSSBONES, YOU WILL PUT THE BIG A ON IT IN RED AND 28 BLACK, AS I RECALL. BECAUSE ASBESTOS IS A VERY UNIQUE DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011211 760 1 PRODUCT. 2 Q. AND TO YOUR WAY OP THINKING, WOULD IT BE MORE 3 EFFECTIVE TO PUT A BIG RED A ON THE BAG OR SKULL AND 4 CROSSBONES IF YOU WANTED TO LET PEOPLE KNOW THAT 5 ASBESTOS COULD CAUSE LIFE-THREATENING DISEASE? 6 A. I WOULD HAVE -- I WOULD HAVE HAD NO OBJECTION 7 TO THE SKULL AND CROSSBONE ON IT. 8 g. OKAY. DID YOU EVER CONSIDER USING A SKULL AND 9 CROSSBONE? 10 A. ONLY THROUGH THIS IS WHERE WE HAD HEIU), ABOUT 11 IT. . 12 Q. NOW, THE AIA, THE ASBESTOS INFORMATION 13 ASSOCIATION, ALSO DEALT WITH OTHER ISSUES THAN LABELING, 14 DID THEY NOT? . 15 A. YES, THEY WOULD TALK ABOUT OTHER WORK 16 HAZARDS. THEY WOULD HAVE SEMINARS WHERE YOU COULD GO IN 17 AND MAYBE THERE WOULD BE AN EXPERT ON EXPLOSIVES. WE 18 COULD ATTEND THOSE SEMINARS IF WE WISH. 19 Q. OKAY. AND THEY TALKED ABOUT DIFFERENT FIBER 20 TYPES OF ASBESTOS, DID THEY NOT, AS ONE OF THE ISSUES, 21 FOR EXAMPLE, CROCIDOLITE, AMOSITE, TREMOLITE? 22 YES, I'M SORRY. EXCUSE ME. 23 A. WE DISCUSSED THOSE. 24 ,Q. AND HOW TO DEAL WITH THOSE DIFFERENT FIBER 25 TYPES? 26 A.. YES. 27 Q. SIR, IN 1980 -- STRIKE THAT. 28 IN 1981, DID YOU HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING THAT DE30RAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 P1D00011212 761 CROCIDOLITE WAS A MORE HAZARDOUS FIBER THAN OTHER 1 ASBESTOS FIBERS IN THE PEVELOPMENT OF DISEASE?---------- ---2 3 A. ABSOLUTELY, YES. j Q. OKAY. WOULD YOU TURN TO PAGE 9 WHICH IS THE 4 5 LAST PAGE OF THE THIS DOCUMENT. AND YOU WERE CERTAINLY A MEMBER OF AIA IN 6 7 1981, WERE YOU NOT? 8 A. YES, I WAS. g. AND YOU REMEMBER -- YOU DIDN'T REALIZE YOU 9 10 WERE A DIRECTOR? _ , . ... ~ - 11 A. NO, I DIDN'T.. q . DO YOU KNOW IF YOU WERE A DIRECTOR IN 1981 -- 12 13 YOU WOULDN'T - 1 1LL WITHDRAW THAT THERE WOULD BE NO FOUNDATION FOR KNOWING YOU 14 WERE A DIRECTOR IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW YOU WERE A DIRECTOR ; 15 16 EARLIER. 17 LET ME REFER YOU TO 5.3. 18 A. OKAY. Q 5.3 ON PAGE 9 AT THE TOP, IT'S THE LAST PAGE. 19 20 MR. WAH: OKAY. MR. HAROWITZ: . Q OKAY. YOU'VE READ THAT? AND THAT STATES, "FOLLOWING LENGTHY DISCUSSION, IT WAS,AGREED THAT THE , AIA'S POLICY MUST BE TO DEFEND AND SUPPORT CROCIDOLITE (BLUE) ASBESTOS AS FORCIBLY AS POSSIBLE. MEMBERS WERE ASKED TO APPLY THE FOLLOWING GUIDELINES. A, THE RISK IS THE SAME AS OTHER TYPES, AND SHOULD NOT BE AGREED THAT CROCIDOLITE IS MORE DANGEROUS; j DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 P1D00011213 7 63 1 Q . HD THIS 3.3.3 HAS TO DO WITH THE MEDICAL 2 ADVISORY PANEL AND WHAT THEY HAD TO SAY, CORRECT? ... ...' 3 A . THAT'S CORRECT. 4 q AND THAT WAS THE MEDICAL ADVISORY PANEL FROM 5 AUSTRALIA, BELGIUM, FRANCE, SOUTH AFRICA, UK, USA, 6 CANADA, DENMARK, RIGHT? 7 A. RIGHT. S Q AND WHAT THEY SAID WAS, IT WAS AGREED THAT THE 9 A1 A `S POLICY MUST BE NOT TO DISCRIMINATE BETWEEN THE 10 TYPES OF ASBESTOS, AND THE CHAIRMAN THANKED DR. GAYS __ 11 (PHONETIC) FOR THE TACTFUL WAYS IN HAD WHICH HE HAD 12 POINTED THIS FACT OUT TO THE CHAIRMAN OF THE MAP, 13 CORRECT? 14 A. THAT'S WHAT IT SAYS, YES. 15 Q. THAT WAS THE POLICY OF THE ASBESTOS 16 INFORMATION ASSOCIATION AT THAT TIME? 17 A. AT THAT TIME, WHICH I CERTAINLY WOULD NOT HAVE 18 SUPPORTED. 19 Q. NOW, WOULD YOU AGREE WITH ME, MR. COATS, THAT 20 THE ASBESTOS INFORMATION ASSOCIATION NEGOTIATED WITH THE 21 GOVERNMENT IN SETTING PERMISSIBLE EXPOSURE LIMITS, OR AS YOU CALLED THEM, TLVS? A. YES, I DO BELIEVE THAT THEY PARTICIPATED IN THE SETTING OF STANDARDS. Q, IT WAS ACTUALLY A NEGOTIATING KIND OF ARRANGEMENT WHERE THE INDUSTRY WOULD TAKE ONE POSITION, AND OTHERS WOULD TAKE ANOTHER POSITION, AND THEN THERE WOULD BE A COMPROMISE? DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 P1D00011215 764 1 A. THERE WOULD BE A COMPROMISE, PROBABLE, YES. 2 Q. WERE YOU FAMILIAR WITH SOME OF THE PEOPLE O N . 3 THE OTHER SIDE OF ISSUE, THAT IS, WHO WOULD WANT LOWER 4 PERMISSIBLE EXPOSURE LIMITS SUCH AS SELIKOFF; DID YOU S KNOW WHAT HIS THOUGHTS WERE ABOUT PELS2 6 A. NO, I DID NOT KNOW. : 7 MR. HAROWITZ; YOUR HONOR, I'M ABOUT TO MOVE 8 INTO ONE FINAL AREA. SHALL I PROCEED OR... 9 THE COURT: NO, I THINK WE SHOULD BREAK NOW. 10 I T 'S 1:30. ^ .. . 11 MR. HAROWITZ: OKAY. 12 THE COURT: UNLESS YOU'RE GOING TO BE THROUGH. 13 MR. HAROWITZ: YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT GOING TO BE 14 THAT QUICK. IT'S NOT GOING TO BE LONG EITHER. 15 THE COURT: WOULD YOU APPROACH, PLEASE? 16 (COUNSEL APPROACH THE BENCH.) 17 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WE ARE GOING TO RECESS 18 FOR THIS AFTERNOON NOW IN JUST A MINUTE. MR. COATS, 1? Y O U 'RE NOT EXCUSED FROM TESTIFYING. 20 THE WITNESS: I UNDERSTAND. 21 THE COURT: YOU WILL. NEED TO COME BACK AND THE 22 ATTORNEYS -- MR. WAH WILL SPEAK WITH YOU ABOUT 23 SCHEDULING A TIME FOR YOU TO COME BACK THAT WORKS. 24 THE WITNESS: THANK YOU. 25 THE COURT: THAT WORKS FOR EVERYONE, 26 HOPEFULLY. AND I WANT TO ADVISE THE JURY, I TOLD YOU 27 THAT I WILL TRY TO LET YOU KNOW AS SOON AS WE KNOW IF 28 THERE MIGHT BE SOME CHANGES IN OUR SCHEDULE TO BE DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011216 ` 769 1 Q. ARE SOU FAMILIAR WITH THESE DOCUMENTS? 2 A. I DON'T RECALL THEM, BUT I'M SURE I RECEIVED 3 IT AND~I KNEW THAT THAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THE AIA/NORTH 4 AMERICA. 5 Q. AND WHY DO YOU BELIEVE YOU RECEIVED THESE 6 DOCUMENTS? ' 7 A. BECAUSE WE WERE MEMBERS OF AIA/NORTH AMERICA. 3 Q. AND YOU PERSONALLY YOU DON'T RECALL DIRECTLY, 9 YOU PERSONALLY, WERE SOMEONE WHO ATTENDED THE MEETINGS IO OF AIA? __ _ ..... 11 A. NOT ALL OF THE MEETINGS. I WOULD ATTEND THE 12 ANNUAL MEETING. , 13 Q. AND IF INFORMATION SUCH AS THIS CAME TO 14 CALAVERAS ASBESTOS COMPANY, WOULD YOU RECEIVE IT 15 PERSONALLY? 16 A. YES, IT WOULD GET TO MY DESK. 17 Q. AND DID YOU MAKE AN EFFORT TO REVIEW MATERIAL 18 THAT YOU RECEIVED FROM THE AIA? 19 A. YES, I DID. 20 Q. SIR, THE POSITION STATEMENT THAT IS ATTACHED 21 TO THE LETTER -- STRIKE THAT. 22 LET ME ASK YOU FIRST, WHO'S MR. PETRIE? 23 A. I DO NOT KNOW MR. PETRIE. 24 Q. WHO IS MR. PIGG? 25 A. MR. PIGG WAS THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE 26 AIA/NORTH AMERICA. 27 Q. AND YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH THE POSITION OF THE 23 AIA ON ASBESTOS, CORRECT? . DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011221 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 770 A AS STATED IN THIS LETTER? Q. YE S . _ _____ R. YES, I AM. Q* OKAY. WOULD YOU FIRST READ THE FIRST OF THE POSITION STATEMENT. R. YOU MEAN FOLLOWING WHERE IT SAYS THE bjectives or at the top? q . AT THE TOP. t h e FIRST FULL PARAGRAPH. A "THE ASBESTOS INFORMATION ASSOCIATION/NORTH WERICA, (AIA/NA), IS AN INCORPORATED NONPROFIT ORGANIZATION OF 54 FIRMS ENGAGED IN THE MANUFACTURE AND ... r\x? PBfmuCTS CONTAINING ASBESTOS FIBER OR IN THE MINING, MILLING, OR SALE OF ASBESTOS FIBER IN NORTH AMERICA." g SIR, DOES THIS PARTICULAR DOCUMENT INDICATING THE POSITION OF THE ASBESTOS INFORMATION ASSOCIATION REFRESH YOUR MEMORY THAT IN FACT THERE WERE MANUFACTURES OF ASBESTOS-CONTAINING PRODUCTS THAT WERE MEMBERS? A. YES. . Q. AND THIS WAS IN 1979? A. . YES, IT IS FIVE YEARS AFTER WE STARTED -- FOUR YEARS AFTER WE WERE IN BUSINESS> YES. Q. OKAY. THEN COULD YOU GO TO THE LAST PARAGRAPH ON THE PAGE, IT'S A FAIRLY LONG PARAGRAPH. A. YES. g. COULD YOU READ THAT FOR THE JURY/ PLEASE? A. "THIS ASSOCIATION IS UNAWARE OF ANY SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE WHICH INDICATES THAT ASBESTOS PRESENTS AN DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011222 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 INCREASED HEALTH RISK TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC. 771 LIKE IN MOST ASBESTOS-CONTAINING PRODUCTS, THE FIBERS ARE Q U O T E , ____ LOCKED"IN, CLOSE QUOTED BlT~CEMENT, PLASTIC OR OTHER BINDERS. SUCH FIBERS ARE NOT EASILY RELEASED DURING NORMAL HANDLING AND APPLICATION. ASBESTOS-RELATED DISEASE TODAY IS CONFINED PRIMARILY TO INDIVIDUALS FROM OCCUPATIONAL AND OCCUPATIONALLY-RELATED ENVIRONMENTS AND RELATES DIRECTLY TO THE INHALATION OF HIGH LEVELS OF ASBESTOS DUST IN THE PAST. WORKING ENVIRONMENTS OF THE PAST CANNOT BE RELATED TO PRESENT REGULATED CONDITIONS. MEDICAL RESEARCH INDICATES THAT THERE IS A DOSE-RESPONSE RELATIONSHIP IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF ASBESTOS-RELATED DISEASE. THUS, THE ASBESTOS INDUSTRY IS CONFIDENT THAT WITH PROPER PRECAUTIONS, ASBESTOS AND ASBESTOS-CONTAINING PRODUCTS CAN CONTINUE TO BE USED IN MANY INDUSTRIAL AND CONSUMER PRODUCTS WITHOUT RISK TO THE HEALTH OF PEOPLE MAKING OR USING THESE PRODUCTS." Q. THAT'S FINE. THANK YOU. SO MR. COATS, IS THAT YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE POSITION OF THE ASBESTOS INFORMATION ASSOCIATION IN 1979? A. YES, IT IS. : Q. AND WAS IT THE ASBESTOS INFORMATION ASSOCIATION'S POSITION, AND YOU WERE A MEMBER OF THAT ASSOCIATION, THAI IF THE LEVEL OF EXPOSURE TO ASBESTOS WAS KEPT WITHIN THE PERMISSIBLE EXPOSURE LEVELS, OR THE TLVS AS YOU CALLED THEM, PEOPLE WEREN'T GOING TO GET SICK? _____________ DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 . PID00Q11223 772 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 n 1( 1! 2i 2 A IF THE EXPOSURE WAS LIMITED TO THOSE TLVS m a n d a t e d b x t h e e h v i r o h m e n t a l j i g e n c i e s , b e r t h s , o s h a ------ "o h "epj7 7i h t "p e o p l e m o s t l i k e l y w o u l d h o t b e e x p o s e d TO AN ASBESTOS-RELATED DISEASE. Q. d i d x o u b e l i e v e t h a t p e o p l e w h o w o h k e d IH ENVIRONMENTS SUCH AS THE ENVIRONMENT AT XOUH MINE AHD hxll , the levels were kept to two fibers per cubic centTM t h a t t h o s e pe o p l e w e e k h o t a t RISK f o e t h e d e v e l o p m e n t o f a n a s b e s t o s -r e l a t e d d i s e a s e ? a . THAT IS WHAT WE BELIEVED. ; q . BUT YOU WERE WRONG, CORRECT? A. 0 8 . OKAY. SIR, THEN CAN .100 EXPLAIN MICHAEL HAAS'S SITUATION? MR. WAH: OBJECTION; YOUR HONOR, argumentative; lacks foundation. t h e COURT: SUSTAINED. MR. HAROWITZ: fi. MR. COATS, DID XOU EVER VISIT THE JOHNS-MANSVILLE PLANT IN STOCKTON? A. YES, I ID* q . AND DID YOU TAKE NOTE OF WHETHER THE JOHNS-MANSVILLE PLANT IN STOCKTON HAD THE SAME KIND OF EQUIPMENT THAT IS TO REMOVE ASBESTOS FROM THE AIR AS YOU h a d AT THE MILL AND MINE? A . IT WAS NOT PRECISELY THE SAME, BUT IT PERFORMED THE SAME FUNCTION. I a . TO BRING THE LEVELS DOWN TO THE OSHA REGULATED P1D00011224 773 1 FIBERS PER CUBIC CENTIMETER? 2 A. YES. 3 Q. DID YOU VISIT -- EXCUSE ME. ~ * . 4 did you Visit the operations of other 5 CUSTOMERS DURING THE TIME PERIOD THAT YOU HAD THE MINE 6 OPEN? LE T 'S LIMIT IT TO 1976 TO 1981. , 7 A. IN THE UNITED STATES YOU'RE REFERRING TO? 8 Q. FIRST, LET'S START THERE. 9 A. I WAS ONLY ALLOWED IN ONE OTHER PLANT, AND 10 THAT WAS THE PABCO VANBUREN (PHONETIC) PLANT IN ^ 11 VANBUREN, ARKANSAS. . . 12 Q. DID THAT PLANT HAVE THE SAME TYPE OF 13 OCCUPATIONAL EQUIPMENT TO KEEP THE LEVELS OF ASBESTOS 14 DOWN THAT YOU HAD AT YOUR OPERATION? 15 A. NOT THE IDENTICAL EQUIPMENT, BUT EQUIPMENT 16 THAT WOULD PERFORM THE SAME FUNCTION, YES. 17 Q. AND WERE THERE OTHER CUSTOMERS' PLANTS THAT 18 YOU WERE NOT ALLOWED? 19 A. THE CERTAINTEED PLANTS. 20 Q. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT KIND OF EQUIPMENT 21 CERTAINTEED PLANT HAD TO KEEP THE ASBESTOS LEVELS DOWN? 22 A. NO. 23 . Q. INTERNATIONALLY, DID YOU VISIT THE PLANTS OF 24 CUSTOMERS WHERE ASBESTOS WAS USED? 25 A. I VISITED GENERALLY WHEN YOU WENT OVERSEAS. 26 YOU WERE NOT ALLOWED TO GO INTO THE PRODUCTION AREAS. 27 YOU WERE ALLOWED TO ENTER THE OFFICES AND DISCUSS 28 WHATEVER BUSINESS YOU HAD IN MIND. SO I WAS THE DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011225 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 ' 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 774 SALESMAN AND THAT'S WHAT WE DISCUSSED. EXCUSE ME, I 'M TRYING TO THINK OF THE DIFFERENT COUNTRIES. I DON'T THINK I WAS ALLOWED IN ANY OF THE MANUFACTURING FACILITIES. Q . SO YOU DID NOT KNOW WHAT TYPE OF EQUIPMENT WAS IN PLACE THOSE FOREIGN COMPANIES HAD TO KEEP THE LEVELS OF ASBESTOS DOWN? . A. NO, I WAS NOT AWARE. Q. YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TYPES OF RESPIRATORS, IF ANY, WERE BEING USED IN THOSE PLANTS? , ....... A. I WAS NOT ALLOWED IN THE PLANTS. Q. OR WHAT TYPES OF ASBESTOS-COLLECTION SYSTEMS WERE IN PLACE IN THOSE PLANTS? A. NO, I HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF THAT. Q. NOW, MR. COATS, THE REASON THAT YOU BOUGHT THE CALAVERAS MINE, WHICH WAS THEN NOT CALLED THE CALAVERAS MINE, BUT HAD PREVIOUSLY BEEN THE PACIFIC ASBESTOS MINE, WAS THAT YOU THOUGHT THAT YOU COULD OPERATE THE MINE PROFITABLY; AM I CORRECT? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q, AND YOU CONTINUED TO RUN THE MINE BECAUSE YOU FELT AS THOUGH YOU COULD CONTINUE TO OPERATE IT PROFITABLY? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. AND YOU STOPPED THE PRODUCTION OF ASBESTOS FROM THE MINE IN 1987? A. DECEMBER 1987. Q. AND THE REASON YOU STOPPED WAS BECAUSE YOU DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703' PIDQOO11226 IIS basically ham out of asbestos ore, or came very close to 1 2 running out of asbestos ore? _________ _______ A. THE SHORT ANSWER ISYES, THAT'S IT. BUT IF 3 4 YOU WISH, I WOULD BE GLAD TO EXPLAIN. . 5 Q. FINE. GO AHEAD. A. WHEN YOU MINE, IF YOU REMEMBER YESTERDAY WE 6 DREW A PICTURE OF THE INTERIOR OF THE PIT WITH THE 7 BENCHES. NOW, THERE WAS THROUGH GEOLOGICAL STUDY MORE 8 ORE, THAT'S ROCK AND SERPENTINE ROCK CONTAINING ASBESTOS 9 FIBER, DOWN AT THE BOTTOM AND OUT UNDERNEATH THESE ..... - . 10 BENCHES. TO GET TO IT WE WOULD HAVE HAD TO START AT THE 11 TOP AGAIN, GO BACK MAYBE 300 YARDS AND START ALL OVER 12 AGAIN. AND WE WOULD HAVE HAD TO GO DOWN MAYBE 500 FEET 13 BEFORE WE EVER HAD HIT ANY ASBESTOS ORE AGAIN. THE 14 COST, AS I RECALL, WOULD HAVE BEEN IN EXCESS OF FIVE 15 MILLION DOLLARS, AND MANAGEMENT DECIDED, THEY MADE THE 16 RECOMMENDATION TO OUR BOARD THAT WE CEASE OPERATIONS IN 17 18 DECEMBER OF 1987. ' (. THAT TYPE OF COST WOOED PRODUCE A SITUATIOH 19 WHERE POO COOED NO EONGER PROFITABEL OPERATE THE MIME? 20 A. THAT'S CORRECT. . Q. AND THEN AT THAT POINT THE MINE WAS TURNED INTO. A LANDFILL? A. AFTER WE CEASED OPERATION, I APPLIED TO THE VARIOUS AGENCIES TO GET A.PERMIT TO ESTABLISH THE FIRST ASBESTOS-CONTAINING WASTE ONLY LANDFILL IN THE UNITED STATES THAT WOULD BE CALLED A MONO-FILL, MEANING WE COULD NOT ACCEPT ANY OTHER FORM OF WASTE. IT HAD T O i-------- - ---- ------------------ ------ 1 0EBORH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011227 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 776 CONTAIN SOME ASBESTOS AND WE COULD CONTROL IT RIGHT THERE. Q. _________________ -__________________7____ THEN AT THAT POINT THE SITE WAS USED, IN EFFECT, TO RETURN ASBESTOS TO THE EARTH? A. WHICH MAYBE WILL BE DUG OUT AGAIN IN 100 YEARS. Q. OKAY. MR. HAROWITZ: YOUR HONOR, MAY I APPROACH? THE COURT: YOU MAY. MR. HAROWITZ: .,, ... ---' Q. MR. COATS, I 'M GOING TO SHOW YOU WHAT I HAD ASKED THE CLERK TO MARK AS EXHIBIT 73, AND I'M ALSO GOING TO RETURN TO YOU -- THE COURT: DO WE NOT HAVE A 72? MR. HAROWITZ: WE DO, I HAVEN'T USED IT YET. MAY I APPROACH THE CLERK FOR A MOMENT? THE COURT: YES, YOU. MAY. MR. HAROWITZ: MAY I APPROACH THE WITNESS? THE COURT: YOU MAY. MR. HAROWITZ: Q. SIR, I'M GOING TO RETURN TO YOU 62-B WHICH ARE THOSE NOTES THAT WE TALKED ABOUT YESTERDAY THAT I HAD SUGGESTED MIGHT BE FROM A SPEECH. , A. OH, YES. YES. Q. AND I 'M ALSO GOING TO SHOW YOU 73 WHICH ARE SOME TYPEWRITTEN NOTES, AN I WANT YOU TO LOOK AT THOSE AND SEE IF THAT REFRESHES YOUR MEMORY AS HAVING EVER GIVEN THAT SPEECH AT THE UNIVERSITY OF NEVADA, R E N O . DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 ! PID00011228  . Ill ' a. THIS LOOKS LIKE I T 1S TAKEN FROM THIS; IS THAT 1 2 CORRECT? __________ Q. ..WELl T T I k JN'T KNOW. AND THAT'S WHAT I WAS 3 ASKING YOU. WHEN YOU SAY THIS, YOU'RE REFERRING TO 4 5 WHICH IS NUMBER... . a. 73 APPEARS TO BE A SHORTENED FORM AND 6 TYPEWRITTEN OF SOME OF t h e NOTES THAT I HAD IN THIS 7 8 longhand document. Q. OKAY. ARE THOSE YOUR HANDWRITTEN NOTES ON THE 9 10 73 DOCUMENT? . .... ..... 11 A. YES, THESE ARE MY NOTES. q . DO YOU SEE THERE WHERE YOU SAID UNDER -- 12 MR. WAH: WAIT A MINUTE. I 'M GOING TO OBJECT, 13 14 I T 'S AN INCOMPLETE DOCUMENT. IT'S ONLY ONE PAGE. THE COURT: FIRST OF ALL, THERE ISN'T A FULL 15 QUESTION PENDING SO LET MR. HAROWITZ ASK WHATEVER 16 QUESTION HE INTENDS TO ASK. AMU THEN, MR. COATS, PLEASE 17 PAUSE BEFORE YOU START YOUR ANSWER SO I CAN SEE WHETHER 18 THERE'S AN OBJECTION AND HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO RULE ON 19 20 IT. MR. HAROWITZ: Q. ON THIS TYPEWRITTEN SHEET, DO YOU SEE WHERE IT'S INDICATED, FOREIGNERS, QUOTE, LAUGHING, CLOSE QUOTE AT US. IT'S F? A. YES, UP ABOVE. Q. WHAT DID YOU MEAN BY THAT, SIR? MR. HAH: Ali RIGHT. MAY ME APPROACH, YOUR HONOR? ' _______ DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PIDOOQ11229 778 1 2 .~ 3 THE COURT: YOU MAY. (COUNSEL APPROACH THE BENCH.} THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. OVERRULED. 4 MR. HAROWITZ: q Mr . COATS, WHAT DID YOU MEAN BY FOREIGNERS, 5 6 QUOTE, LAUGHING AT US, CLOSE QUOTES? ' fl HR. HAROWITZ, D, E, T, AMD G, AND I DON'T KNOW 7 8 WNRT ft, B, AND C IS. WHAT WOOLD BE TEE GENERAL TITLE OF 9 THAT? DO YOU HAVE THAT, PLEASE? Q. I DON'T, MR. COATS, BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT WAS .. 10 GIVEN TO ME BY YOUR COUNSEL. I D O N 'T HAVE THE FIRST 11 12 PAGE. I WISH I DID. A. BECAUSE WE ARE TALKING -- IT'S SO CONFUSING. 13 WE ARE TALKING ABOUT STEEL AND HOUSES, AUTOMOBILES, AND 14 15 FOREIGNERS. . 16 Q. IF YOU DO N 'T KNOW, SIR... A. YES, I DON'T KNOW WHAT I WAS REFERRING TO 17 18 THERE. q . WOULD YOU READ THE HANDWRITTEN NOTE NEXT TO 19 WHERE IT SAYS, FOREIGNERS, QUOTE, LAUGHING, CLOSE QUOTE, LAUGHING AT US. THAT'S IN YOUR HANDWRITING? A. I THINK BUS, BUSINESS HAS 4,400 DIFFERENT FORMS PER YEAR WHICH REQUIRE 143 MAN HOURS -- OH, 143,000 MAN HOURS TO COMPLETE WHICH COST A 25 BILLION DOLLAR EXPENSE. GENERAL MOTORS SPENDS ONE BILLION DOLLARS PER YEAR, WHICH IS EQUIVALENT TO ONE-THIRD OF THEIR NET PROFITS. 41 REGULATORY AGENCIES COST, COST INCREASE 100 PERCENT IN FIVE YEARS. DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSE 9703 PID0QQ1123Q --------------------- ----- ----- :----------- -- ' ------------- r~---------------119 1 Q. OKAY. DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR MEMORY AS TO 2 WHAT YOU MEANT FOREIGNERS, QUOTE, LAUGHING AT US, CLOSE 3 QUOTE? . 4 A. WELL, I'M NOT SO SURE THAT THOSE HANDWRITTEN 5 NOTES ARE IN -- NECESSARILY IN RELATION TO FOREIGNERS 6 LAUGHING. IF WE ASSUME THAT LAUGHING MEANT THE 7 FOREIGNERS WHERE WHEN -- IF I CAN ASSUME THIS, BUT I 8 WOULD SAY THAT BECAUSE WE FILED SO MANY MORE FORMS THAN 9 DO FOREIGN COUNTRIES, THAN COMPANIES IN FOREIGN 10 COUNTRIES ARE REQUIRED TO FILE, I COULD RELATE THEM ..__ 11 LAUGHING AT THAT. . 12 Q. FURTHER DOWN ON THE PAGE YOU HAVE TYPED, WELL 13 THERE IS TYPED WRITTEN, THE WAY THE DOOMOLOGIST, 14 SINGULAR. AND YOU HAVE THEN A DASH AFTER THAT AND THEN 15 SOME HANDWRITING; DO YOU SEE THAT? 16 A. YES. I CAN'T READ IT. 17 Q. YOU CAN'T READ IT? 18 j A. CAN YOU READ IT? 19 Q, PEOPLE ON A MISSION, TUNNEL VISION; IS THAT 20 WHAT IT SAYS? 21 MR. WAH: NO, YOUR HONOR * I'M GOING TO 22 OBJECT, IT MISSTATES WHAT'S ON THE PAGE. 23 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. MR. HAROWITZ: WELL, SIR. THE COURT: YOU CAN ASK HIM IF THAT 1S WHAT HE THINKS IT SAYS, AND IF HE AGREES THEN HE CAN SO STATE. IF HE DOESN'T KNOW -- IF YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT THAT IS, . THEN YOU SHOULD SO STATE. IF YOU DON'T REMEMBER, YOU DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011231 1 CAM STATE THAT. AMD WE'LL PROCEED FROM THERE. THE WITNESS: I THINK I WOULD AGREE IT SAYS 2 PEOPLE ON A ~ THEN I CAN'T RE A D^ T H E LA S T W OR D , THEM ^ 3 4 CAN'T READ THE LAST TWO WORDS ON MY COPY. MR. HAROWITZ: MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR? 5 6 , THE COURT: YOU MAY. I MR. HAROWITZ: MY COPY IS BETTER THAN YOURS. 7 I 'M SHOWING HIM MY COPY OF THIS MAYBE I 8 9 SHOULD SHOW THIS TO COUNSEL FIRST. THE COURT: YES, I THINK YOU_SHOULD. 10 MR. HAROWITZ: MAY I APPROACH AGAIN, YOUR 11 780' 12 HONOR? 13 THE WITNESS; IT SAYS - YOURS IS BETTER. 14 PEOPLE ON A MISSION, TUNNEL VISION. YES. 15 MR. HAROWITZ: ' Q. OKAY. DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT YOU MEANT BY THAT 16 17 HANDWRITTEN NOTE? . 18 A. MAY I REFER TO THIS? Q. CERTAINLY. THAT WOULD BE THIS BEING EXHIBIT 19 20 NUMBER. * 21 A. 62-B. . 22 Q. THANK YOU. A. HERE I REFERRED TO WHAT I CALLED THE DOOMOLOGIST WOULD SUGGEST SOMEONE IS APPROACHING DOOM FOR OUR POPULATION, THAT THESE PEOPLE - SOME OF THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE ESTABLISHING THE RULES AND REGULATIONS ARE IN THEIR - WHAT THEY CLAIM TO BE THEIR ATTEMPT TO . PROTECT THE PUBLIC MAY BE THE ONES WHO ARE ENDANGERING DEBORAH' L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PIDQ0Q11232 781 these same people who they profess to be protecting. 1 Q. WOULD DR. IRVING SELIKOFF BE ONE OF THOSE 2 m .. * D00M0L0G1STS? 4 A. NO. q . HOW ABOUT RALPH NADER, WOULD HE BE ONE OF . 5 6 THOSE DOOMOLOGISTS? MR. WAH: OBJECTION? RELEVANCY. 7 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. 8 9 MR. HAROWITZ; Q. FINALLY, ON THIS PAOE, HR. COATS, ON 10 YOU HAVE SOME LISTING OF DAMAGES AND HUMAN LIFE, AND I n THINK NUMBER 6, CAN YOU READ THAT ON THE RIGHT-HAND 12 13 COLUMN? ! A. ANTI-CAPITALISM PHILOSOPHY. . 14 O. WHAT ARE YOU REFERRING TO THERE, IF YOU CAN 15 ' RECALL? . O 16 A. THAT IT APPEARED TO ME AT THE TIME THAT THERE 17 WERE PEOPLE WHO WERE PERHAPS JEALOUS OF SOMEONE WHO 18 WOULD TAKE A RISK IN BUSINESS AND INSTEAD OF PERHAPS 19 DOING THEIR JOB TO REALLY PROTECT OOR SOCIETY, THEY HADE 20 IT VERY ONEROUS ON THE INDIVIDUAL WHO WAS TRYING TO 21 CREATE EMPLOYMENT, CREATE PRODUCT, AND THAT'S WHAT I 22 23 CALLED THE ANTI-CAPITALIST. Q. I HAVE ONE MORE QUESTION REGARDING THE SPEECH, 24 AND IT COMES FROM YOUR HANDWRITTEN NOTES WHICH -- 25 MR. HAROWITZ: ' MAY I APPROACH AGAIN, YOUR 26 27 HONOR? - 28 THE COURT: YOU MAY. DEBORAH L. NEVILLE CSR 9703 PID00011233