Document 15YgQgkgMX2Y104aqoj5255ro

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS CERRO COPPER PRODUCTS COMPANY, Plaintiff, vs. MONSANTO COMPANY, Defendant. ) ) ) ) ) ) Civil Action No. ) 92-CV-204WDS ) Honorable William ) Stiehl ) ) Deposition o Paul B. Hodges Volume I taken on behalf of the Plaintiff May 31st, 1994 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES COURT REPORTERS SUITE 920 906 OLIVE STREET ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 63101 PHONE: (314) 621-3777 1 -800-280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6497 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 1 INDEX OF QUESTIONERS 2 QUESTIONS BY 3 Mr. Ricci 4 5 INDEX OF EXHIBITS 6 NO. 71 DESCRIPTION Map 82 93 10 4 Illinois EPA documents Illinois EPA documents Map 11 5 12 6 13 7 14 8 15 9 16 10 17 11 18 12 December 6, 1963 letter July 29, 1957 letter Progress Report Goldenberg Report Progres Report Progress Report Horner and Shifrin Report June 8, 1965 minutes 19 13 20 21 22 23 24 June 14, 1965 minutes l PAGE 4 PAGE MKD. 14 62 62 80 100 111 120 135 135 160 162 166 166 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006498 2 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94_____________________ 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 2 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS 3 CERRO COPPER PRODUCTS COMPANY, 4 Plaintiff, 5 vs. 6 MONSANTO COMPANY, 7' 8 Defendant. ) ) ) ) ) ) Civil Action No. ) 92-CV-204WDS ) Honorable William ) Stiehl ) ) 9 10 DEPOSITION OF WITNESS, PAUL B. 11 HODGES, produced, sworn and examined on the 31st 12 day of May, 1994, between the hours of eight 13 o'clock in the forenoon and six o'clock in the 14 afternoon of that day, at the offices of Coburn 15 & Croft, One Mercantile Center, Suite 2900, St. 16 Louis, Missouri 63101, before DEBORAH C. WEAVER, a 17 Notary Public and Shorthand Reporter within and 18 for the State of Illinois, in a certain cause now 19 pending in the United States District Court, 20 Southern District of Illinois, wherein Cerro 21 Copper Products is Plaintiff and Monsanto Company 22 is Defendant. 23 24 25 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6499 3 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94_____________________ 1 2 3 4 APPEARANCES 5 6 For the Plaintiff: 7 LOWENSTEIN, SANDLER, KOHL, FISHER & BOYLAN 8 65 Livingston Avenue Roseland, NJ 07066-1791 9 by: Mr. Richard F. Ricci 10 11 For the Defendant: 12 COBURN & CROFT One Mercantile Center 13 Suite 2900 St. Louis, MO 63101 14 by: Mr. Kenneth R. Heineman 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006500 4 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94_____________________ 1 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED, 2 by and between counsel for the Plaintiff 3 and counsel for the Defendant that this deposition 4 may be taken in shorthand by Deborah C. Weaver, a 5 notary public and shorthand reporter, and 6 afterwards transcribed into typewriting; and the 7 signature of the witness is expressly reserved. 8 PAUL B. HODGES, 9 of lawful age, produced, sworn and examined on 10 behalf of the Plaintiff, deposes and says: 11 EXAMINATION 12 QUESTIONS BY MR. RICCI: 13 Q. Could you state your name and 14 address for the record, please? 15 A. Paul B. Hodges. 16 Q. And your address? 17 A. 633 Greenwood Place, Collinsville 18 Illinois, that's 62234. 19 Q. Mr. Hodges, my name is Rich Ricci 20 and I represent Cerro Copper Products Company in a 21 lawsuit that they have brought against Monsanto, 22 and you've been produced by Monsanto to testify at 23 this deposition pursuant to a request by Cerro. 24 Have you ever had your deposition 'JC taken before? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES . (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006501 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 5 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. How many times? 3 A. Once. 4 Q. How long ago was that? 5 A. I think it was last year. It may be 6 two years. one or two years ago. 7 Q. Do you know what kind of case that 8 was ? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Can you tell me? 11 A. Yes. It was a suit by some gas 12 pumping outfit in the southwest, and I don't 13 remember the name, against Monsanto relative to 14 PCB which apparently got into the gas line. 15 Q. Natural gas? 16 A. I guess. Yes, as far as I know. 17 Q. Have youever testified incourt? 18 A. No. 19 Q. I wouldjust like to go over the 20 ground rules for the deposition we'll be taking 21 here. 22 I am going to be asking you a series 23 of questions, and hopefully you'll be providing me 24 with the answers to the best of your knowledge and 25 ability. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006502 6 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94_____________________ 1 If in the course of the deposition I 2 ask you a question that you don't understand, 3 please tell me that you don't understand it and I 4 will try and rephrase it so that you do understand 5 it. 6 If I ask you a question and you 7 answer it, I am going to assume that you 8 understood the question and answered it 9 accordingly. 10 The questions and answers are going 11 to be taken by our court reporter here and 12 ultimately put together in a booklet that we call 13 a transcript, and even though this is an informal 14 setting, you should be aware that you are under 15 oath and that the testimony that you give here 16 today can be used in the trial of this matter as 17 if you were testifying on the witness stand in 18 court. 19 For the sake of our court reporter, 20 it would be helpful if you try to let me finish my 21 questions before you give your answers, and I in 22 turn will try and let you finish your answer 23 before I ask the next question. 24 If you need to take a break at all, 25 please let me know, because I am happy to TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006503 . ______________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94_______________ 7 1 accommodate you. This is not an endurance contest 2 and we can break as frequently as you would like 3 for any reason. 4 I should tell you that I am not an 5 engineer, I am not a technical person, and I may 6 get into some technical testimony, and if I ask 7 you a question that doesn't make sense from a 8 technical point of view, again you should tell me 9 and I will try to the best of my ability to ask 10 the question in a way that makes sense to you. 11 A. Uh-huh. 12 Q. Do you have anyquestions before we 13 get rolling here? 14 A. Only one is I assume I will review 15 this testimony? 16 Q. You will. 17 A. When will that be? We're going to 18 be in Europe until mid August, and I don't know if 19 there's any rush before then. That's going to be 20 the earliest I can review this. 21 (Discussion held off the record.) 22 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, did you 23 do anything to prepare for your deposition here 24 today? 25 A. Yes, I met with our attorneys. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006504 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 8 1 Q. Other than your attorneys, did you 2 meet with anyone else, anyone from Monsanto? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Any former Monsanto employees? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Did you talk to any present or 7 former Monsanto employees? ` 8 A. I went out to dinner but we didn't 9 discuss this. 10 Q. Who was that? 11 A. Pete Lux. 12 Q. Did you review any documents? 13 A. No, purely social. 14 Q. Not related to the preparation for 15 your deposition? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. Well, I am sorry. I looked at some of this last Thursday. Q. These were documents provided by your attorneys? A. That's right. Q. Mr. Hodges, how old are you? A. 80. Q. 80? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006505 9 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94_____________________ 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Are you currently under any 3 medication that might effect your ability to 4 testify here today? 5 A. Not as far as I know, no. 6 Q. Can you give me your educational 7 background starting with high school? 8 A. Graduated fromhigh school in Kansas 9 City, Missouri. I got a Bachelor of Technical 10 Engineering Degree from Kansas University in 1939. 11 In the sixties I started slowly 12 picking up matters in sanitary environmental 13 engineering from Washington University. I finally 14 got that in the early seventies. 15 Q. I am sorry. Your initial degree was 16 in chemical engineering? 17 A. Yes, BS in Chemical Engineering. 18 Q. That was 1939? 19 A. Yes. Q. Did you serve in the military? A. Not really. I was a Reserve Officer and did go on active duty in the summer of 1939. However, when I was called up about the outbreak of the war, I failed medically. Q. Did you go directly from high school TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006506 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 10 1 to college? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Can you trace for me your work 4 history upon graduation from college in 1939? 5 A. Yes. I worked for -- let's see. I 6 went to work about late September of '39 for the 7 Colorado Fuel and Iron Corporation in Pueblo, 8 Colorado. I had a long layoff, five month layoff 9 in 1940. In 1940, I went with Monsanto Company. 10 I think it was October of '40. 11 Q. Where was your first position with 12 Monsanto? 13 A. At the Krummrich Plant. 14 Q. What was that position? 15 A. Laboratory Analyst. 16 Q. Krummrich. 17 Q. How long did you hold that position 18 as Lab Analyst? 19 A. About six months. 20 Q. What were you responsibilities as a 21 Laboratory Analyst? 22 A. Analyzed samples. 23 Q. Samples of what? 24 A. Of chemicals that we manufactured. 25 Q. Product samples? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006507 11 ____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 A. Raw materials, sample any of them. 2 Q. 3 sampling? 4 A. 5 Q. Did that include any waste water No. So basically product samples, raw 6 material samples, intermediate samples? 7 A. Yes. S Q. What was the next position that you 9 held at Monsanto after Laboratory Analyst? 10 A. I was -- let's see. I was a 11 Technical Assistant and then sometime became 12 Assistant Supervisor of the Sulfuric Acid Catalyst 13 Department and the Chemically Pure Acids 14 Department. 15 Q. Let me break that down. After Lab 16 Analyst you were Technical Assistant of the 17 Sulfuric Acid and Catalyst Department? A. And Chemically Pure Acid Department. Q. Was that one or two departments? A. That was two departments. Q. Do you know what department numbers those departments had? A. I think -- as I recall, the Sulfuric Acid was 211. I don't remember the number of the other. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6508 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 12 1 Q. As Technical Assistant of those two 2 departments, what were your responsibilities? 3 A. Assistant in production work. 4 Q. I 5 Assistant? How long were you a Technical 6 A. I don't remember. 7 Q. After you became Technical 8 Assistant, then were you promoted? 9 A. Yes, Assistant Supervisor. 10 recall when that was. I don't 11 Q. Do you recall the position that you 12 held next after Assistant Supervisor of those 13 departments? 14 A. Vaguely. I was Assistant Night 15 Superintendent of the plant for -- well, as I recall it was three months, but I could be mistaken. Q. That was of the entire plant? A. Yes. Q. Do you recall approximately how long you were in the Sulfuric Acid Catalyst and Chemically Pure Acid Departments? A. Between four and five years. Q. So that you would have been moved on to the Assistant Night Supervisor position? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6509 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 13 1 A. I am sorry, I said that wrong. It 2 was Assistant Night Superintendent. 3 Q. Superintendent? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. So you would have been moved to the 6 Assistant Night Superintendent position in around 7 '45 or '46; does that sound right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You held that position forthree 10 months? 11 A. As I recall, yes. 12 Q. What was the next position that you 13 held after that? 14 A. I was Shift Supervisor of a group of 15 departments. 16 Q. Which departments were those? 17 A. Let's see. Hydrogenation Area. Q. Hydrogenation Area? A. Yes. Q. All right. A. Benzyl Chloride, PCB's and what we called Little Phosphorus. Q. It was '45 or '46 that you took that position? A. Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006510 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 14 1 Q. How long did you hold this Shift 2 Supervisor position? 3 A. I don't recall. I think it was 4 about three years. 5 Q. The departments that you were Shift 6 Supervisor for, were they geographically located 7 in the same general area of the plant? 8 A. More or less, yes. They were 9 separate, but they were in the eastern part of the 10 plant. 11 Q. Do you recall if they were east of 12 Falling Springs Road? 13 A. I don't remember exactly where 14 Falling Springs Road was. 15 Q. Let me just show you a map here and 16 maybe that will orientate you a little bit. I 17 don't know how relevant it will be, but why don't 18 we mark this as Hodges 1. (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification at this time) Q. (By Mr. Ricci) For the record, this is the same map that we marked at the Krull deposition, I believe it's Krull 2. It's a map that was produced by Monsanto in this litigation TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006511 15 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 with Bates No. CER 111154. 2 Mr. Hodges, I'll just ask you to 3 take a look at this and see if you can orientate 4 yourself a little bit. 5 A. Where is Route 3? 6 Q. Route 3 is -- actually, I don't 7 think this map goes far west enough to give you 8 Route 3. Here's Monsanto Avenue up here and this 9 is Falling Springs Road right here. 10 A. This was one department and that was 11 another one. I may have had something to do with 12 this, but I don't recall. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. And then down in this area. Is this 15 an up-to-date map? 16 Q. This map is dated 1964 and that's 17 all I can tell you about it. 18 A. Oh, okay. 19 Q. Although, Ishould note there are 20 some revisions that's are noted in the key at the bottom that give you some dates. A. I thought theHydrogenation Department 247 was over here someplace, but anyway that was one of them. Q. Let me see if I can jump in here so TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006512 ____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94_______________ 16 1 the testimony will be a little bit clearer. 2 A. Anyway, all in this section here. 3 Q. When you say this section, you are 4 referring to the section east of Falling Springs 5 Road? 6 A. What's Falling Springs Road? 7 Q. Here's Falling Springs Road, this 8 road here. 9 A. Went through the middle of the 10 plant. 11 Q. North and south? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Now, let me go back. You testified 14 that one of the departments that you were a Shift 15 Supervisor for was Hydrogenation? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. That was Department 247? 18 A. Yes. Q. Another was Benzyl Chloride? A. I don't remember. I think that was 238, but I could be mistaken. Q. Another was PCB's? A. Yes . Q. That was Department 246? A. That's right. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6513 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 17 1 Q. And then the other one was Little 2 Phos ? 3 A. Uh-huh. I think we knew it 4 principally as 243. 5 Q. There were other department numbers 6 mixed up with that, but that's the way we called 7 it. 8 Q. 243 is depicted on this map in the 9 area in the far east section of the plant? 10 A. That's right. 11 Q. You did not have responsibility for 12 248, though? 13 A. 14 Q. 15 A. Yes, I did. You did have 248? Yes. Products were made 16 intermittently in there. 17 Q. Do you recall what products were 18 made in 248? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Do you recall if it was Cresyl 21 Phosphate? 22 A. What? 23 Q. Cresyl Phosphate? 24 A. Doesn't ring any bell. 25 Q. Doesn't ring a bell? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6514 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 18 1 A. I don't recall. 2 Q. There's a Department 244 depicted on 3 the map next to 243. Was that part of your 4 responsibility as Shift Supervisor? I 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Do you recall what was in 244? 7 A. One of them was Phosphorus 8 Trichloride. One was Phosphorus Oxychloride. I 9 don't remember which. 10 Q. I see there's also a Department 241 11 depicted on this map. Was that part of your 12 responsibility as Shift Supervisor? 13 A. I don't recall. 14 Q. All right. 15 A. I could say it was, but I don't 16 remember it. 17 Q. Now, you indicated that Department 18 247 was Hydrogenation? 19 A. Yes. Q. And this word as located on this map is not necessarily where you remembered it being located? A. I think that's correct. Q. Do you recall Monsanto ever moving the Hydrogenation Department? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006515 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 19 1 A. No. 2 Q. Can you tell me what was 3 manufactured in that department? 4 A. Let's see. I can recall one of two 5 of the products. There was a large number of 6 products made there. 7 Cyclohexyl Amine, Dyclohexyl Amine. S There were others, but I don't 9 recall their names. 10 Q. What were those products used for? 11 A. I don't remember. 12 Q. Have you been able to locate 13 Department 238 on this map? 14 A. It should be right here. It should 15 be in here. 16 Q. Is that it right here? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. So Benzyl Chloride, that's in a building with a very small 238 written on it right below a C-H; is that correct? A. I assume so, uh-huh. Q. Do you know what C-H stands for or depicts ? A. (Witness nods.) Q. Please try to give me anuh-huh or TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6516 20 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 uh-huh. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do you recall what the raw materials 4 were in -- let's go back to Department 247 for a 5 second. 6 Do you recall what raw materials 7 were used in that department? 8 A. No, I don't remember frankly. 9 Q. How about in Benzyl Chloride? 10 A. Toluene and Chlorine. 11 Q. Do you recall how long Benzyl 12 Chloride was manufactured at the Krummrich Plant? 13 A. No. 14 Q. You indicated that you held the 15 Shift Supervisor position for approximately three 16 years; is that correct? 17 A. That's right. 18 Q. And we're in the range of '45 or 19 4 8 or '49; does that sound about right? 20 A. Yes. Q. Was Benzyl Chloride manufactured during the entire period that you were Shift Supervisor? A. Yes. Q. Do you know if it continued to be TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006517 21 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 manufactured immediately after you were no longer 2 the Shift Supervisor? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. You don't know if it's manufactured 5 today? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Or when they stoppedmanufacturing 8 it or if they stopped 9 A. No. 10 Q. Again, if you let me finish my 11 question before you give your answers that will be 12 helpful. 13 A. Okay. 14 Q. Do you know if there was any 15 discharge to the sewers in the Benzyl Chloride 16 manufacturing process? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Can you describe themfor me in 19 terms of how they fit into the production process? 20 A. The HCL that wasproduced was drown 21 into the sewer. Q. Let me stop you there for a second. HCL is Hydrochloric Acid? A. Yes. Q. That was aby-product in the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6518 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 22 1 manufacture of Benzyl Chloride? 2 A. 3 Q. 4 sewer? 5 A. Yes. What do you mean by drown into the It was mixed with water. 6 Q. And discharged to the sewer? 7 A. That's right. S Q. Can you describe for me the point in 9 the manufacturing process where the HCL was 10 formed? 11 A. In the chlorination. 12 Q. That would be the chlorination of 13 Toluene? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Does that chlorination occur in a 16 reactor of some sort? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Was the HCL that was formed in that reaction in a gaseous state? A. Yes. Q. The gas came off the reactor in some form? A. Yes. Q. And then it was drown to the sewer was what you indicated? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6519 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 23 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Do you know if there were any 3 organics that came off the reactor with the HCL? 4 A. I would say trace amounts. 5 Q. Would Toluene be one of the organics 6 that came off of that reactor with the HCL? 7 A. I don't know. 8 Q. 9 Chloride? Do you know if it would be Benzyl 10. A. Again, I don't know what the 11 composition was. 12 Q. To the extent that -- let me 13 withdraw that. 14 Did Monsanto ever install any 15 mechanisms or equipment to remove organics from 16 the HCL prior to drowning it to the sewer? 17 A. I don't remember. 18 Q. Do you recall if any such mechanisms 19 were installed during the time you were the shift 20 supervisor? 21 A. I don't recall that, either. 22 Q. When you say trace amounts, are you 23 able to quantify any more specifically than that? A. No. Q. Do you recall Monsanto ever taking TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 555 TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006520 24 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 any steps to measure the amount of organics, if 2 any, being drown to the sewer with the HCL? 3 A. I don't recall any in my time there. J 4 Q. Was the Benzyl Chloride Department a 5 department that operated 24 hours a day, seven 6 days a week? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Are you able to quantify in any way 9 the amount of HCL that was sewered in that 10 production process, either on a per pound of 11 product or on a daily or weekly basis? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Who was your superior at this time, 14 1945 or 1946 to 1949 or 1949? 15 A. Desmond Hosmer. 16 Q. What was his title? 17 A. I think it was Superintendent, 18 Operating Superintendent. Q. You indicated that another department for which you had responsibility as Shift Supervisor was Little Phosphorus? A. Yes. Q. What was produced in that department? A. Phosphorus Trichloride, Phosphorus TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6521 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 25 1 Oxychloride and another one that I don't recall. 2 Q. Were the products produced in Little 3 Phos organic chemicals? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Were there any organics involved in 6 the production process? 7 A. Not that I recall. S Q. I may have asked you this before, 9 and if I did I apologize, but do you recall again 10 what products were produced in Department 248 at 11 this time? 12 A. 13 Q. 14 PCB's? 15 A. 16 Q. 17 department? 18 A. No. You indicated that you also had That's right. What products were produced in that PCB's. Q. Do you recall the specific Arochlors that were produced? A. No, but there was a wide range of them. Q. Do you recall any of the specific products that were produced? A. PCB's. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006522 26 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 Q. Do you recall or do you know any of 2 the end uses for the PCB's that were produced in 3 Department 246? 4 A. One of them was in transformers and 5 there were other uses as in paints or caulking 6 compounds. 7 Q. Do you recall heat transfer fluids S being produced in a time period? 9 A. Oh, yes. 10 Q. How about capacitor fluids? 11 A. That's what I referred to as 12 transformers. 13 Q. You viewed that basically as the 14 same end use or the same type of end use? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Do you know if any of the products 17 that were produced in Department 246 included 18 constituents other than PCB's? 19 A. I don't recall. 20 Q. Do you recall the raw materials used 21 in Department 246? 22 A. Diphenyl and Chlorine. 23 Q. Biphenyl? 24 A. Biphenyl or Diphenyl. Q. Same thing? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006523 27 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 A. Yes, I think so. 2 Q. As Shift Supervisor did you have a 3 familiarity with the production process employed 4 in Department 246? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Did you have responsibility for 7 quality control with respect to the Arochlors 8 produced in Department 246? 9 A. I am not sure how to answer that. I 10 was responsible for what happened on the shifts 11 other than the day shift. 12 As far as overall quality control, 13 that was primarily the responsibility of the 14 supervisor. 15 Q. Was the supervisor your boss? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Were you the supervisor's boss? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Your positions were not related in a 20 management sense or - 21 A. They were related in that as Supervisor I had responsibility for carrying out the instructions left by the supervisor. Q. But you did not report to the supervisor? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6524 28 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 A. No. 2 Q. Who did you report to? 3 A. Desmond Hosmer, the Operating 4 Superintendent. 5 Q. Who did the supervisor report to? 6 A. Same man. 7 Q. Were you familiar with the chemical 8 make up of the Arochlors that were manufactured in 9 Department 246? 10 A. At that time, yes. 11 Q. The Arochlors were referred to by 12 various numbers; is that correct? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. Generally the numbers began with a 15 12; does that sound correct to you? 16 A. I don't recall. I thought there was 17 an 11 something someplace, but I don't recall. 18 Q. Do you have any recollection of how 19 the numbering system was deceived or what the 20 numbering system signified, if anything? A. Not specifically. It had do degree of chlorination. Q. Let's just take an example of Arochlor 1248. Is that an Arochlor that was produced in Department 246? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6525 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 29 1 A. Yes, I recall that. 2 Q. Do you know which parts of that 3 number 1248 related to the degree of chlorination? 4 A. I don't recall. 5 Q. Do you know whether during this time 6 period the production of PCB's involved discharges 7 to the sewers? S A. I don't recall. 9 Q. All right. 10 A. Let me restate that. There was 11 discharge of HCL to the sewer, that I know. 12 Q. 13 from? 14 A. 15 Q. 16 A. 17 Q. 18 reactors? Do you know where this HCL came From the manufacturer. From the chlorination ofBiphenyl? Yes. Did the HCL come directly off the A. Reconstructing I assume it did yes. Q. Let me just go back. When I refer to reactor, I am talking about the vessel where the Biphenyl was chlorinated. Is that your understanding? A. Yes. Q. And HCL was a by-product of that TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006526 30 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 reaction? 2 A. That's right. 3 Q. And was the HCL drown to the sewer? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Do you know whether during this time 6 period there were any mechanisms in place to treat 7 the HCL before it was drown to the sewer? 8 A. I don't recall. 9 Q. Do you know whether there were any 10 organics that were taken off of the reactor with 11 the HCL? 12 A. I don't recall that, either. 13 Q. You have no recollection ofwhether 14 organics were taken out of the reactor with the 15 HCL? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Do you know if there were any 18 mechanisms or devices in place to remove entrained 19 organics from HCL off gas prior to drowning it to 20 the sewer during this time period? A. I don't recall. Q. Do you recall any time after 1949 where Monsanto installed equipment in Department 246 to remove organics from the HCL off gas? A. I don't recall. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6527 31 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 Q. Do you recall an effort by Monsanto 2 in the late 1960's or early 1970 to reduce the 3 volume of PCB's discharged to the sewers? 4 A. Repeat that. 5 MR. RICCI; Read back the question. 6 (Testimony was read back.) 7 THE WITNESS: I know there was such 8 an effort. 9 Q. I don't know the specifics of it. (By Mr. Ricci) Do you know whether 10 these efforts included looking at the amount of 11 PCB's that might be coming to the sewer with the 12 HCL off gas? 13 A. They certainly had to. 14 Q. But you don't recall any of the 15 specifics of that? 16 A. No. 17 (Discussion held off the record.) 18 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, do you 19 recall what position you held immediately after 20 you were shift supervisor? A. Yes, I was Supervisor Hydrogenation and Benzyl Chloride. Q. All right. A. I am sorry, let me take that back. I was Supervisor of Little TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006528 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 32 1 Phosphorus and PCB's. 2 Q. Let me go back for a second. During 3 the time that you were Shift Supervisor, who was 4 the supervisor for PCB's? 5 A. Wayne Hearne. 6 Q. Wayne Hearne? 7 A. Yes, H-E-A-R-N-E. 8 Q. 9 today? Do you know where Mr. Hearne is 10 A. What's that? 11 Q. Do you know where Mr. Hearne is 12 today? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Do you recall the year that you 15 became Supervisor for Little Phos in PCB's? 16 A. Not specifically. It was in the late forties or early fifties. Q. How long did you hold that position? A. About two to three years. Q. So around '52, '53, in that range? A. Probably until '53. Q. With respect to the PCB Department, how did your responsibilities change from the movement from Shift Supervisor to Supervisor? A. I had responsibilities for handling TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6529 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 33 1 the labor situation, for determining the amount of 2 PCB's to be made, responsibility for the yields 3 and for quality and also for maintenance. 4 Q. In your position as Supervisor of 5 PCB, did you have to know the constituents or make 6 up of the various products produced in Department 7 246? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Do you know if any of the products 10 produced in Department 246 included unchlorinated 11 Biphenyl? 12 A. No, it did not. 13 Q. So the -- 14 A. Chlorinated Biphenyl. 15 (Short break was taken) 16 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Who was your 17 supervisor at the time that you were Supervisor of 18 Little Phos and PCB's? A. Desmond Hosmer. Q. Who was the Shift Supervisor at the time you became Supervisor? A. I don't recall. In that time period we eliminated the job. Q. Of Shift Supervisor? A. Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006530 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 34 1 Q. Now, I had asked you a number of 2 questions about the HCL drown to the sewer in 3 Department 246, and rather than go through all 4 that again. I'll ask you do you have any more 5 specific recollection about HCL being drown to the 6 sewer during the time period when were you 7 Supervisor than you do during the time period when S you were Shift Supervisor? 9 A. I do not. 10 Q. Did you have any foremen working for 11 you during the time you were Supervisor for 12 Department 246? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Who were they; do you recall? 15 A. Earl Smith. 16 Q. Just one? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Do you know where he is today? A. No. Q. Let me take you back for a moment to the time when you were the shift supervisor. At that time did PCB's operate 24 hours a day, seven days a week? A. Yes. Q. Do you recall, again focusing on the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006531 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 35 1 time when you were the Shift Supervisor, whether 2 any of the by-product HCL was used in any other 3 departments at the Krummrich Facility as a raw 4 material? 5 A. No. 6 Q. No, you don't recall? 7 A. No, I don't recall. I don't think 8 it was. 9 Q. How about during the time period 10 that you were Supervisor for Department 246? 11 A. No. 12 Q. No, you don't believe that the HCL 13 was used in any other departments? 14 A. I believe it was not used in any 15 other place 16 Q. Do you recall a time when Monsanto 17 began using HCL off gas from Department 246 in 18 other departments? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Do you recall the HCL being used as 21 a raw material in the manufacture of 22 Chlorosulfonic Acid? 23 A. No. Q. Do you recall the off gas HCL being used in the manufacture of Muriatic Acid? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006532 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 36 1 A. No. 2 Q. During the period that you were 3 Supervisor of Department 246, did that department 4 operate 24 hours a day, seven days a week? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Do you recall what your production. 7 your annual production was during that time 8 period? 9 A. 10 Q. No. Do you recall if you were 11 manufacturing at capacity or near capacity? 12 A. 13 Q. 14 A. 15 Q. 16 capacity? 17 A. 18 Q. I don't recall. All right. I think we were. You think you were at or near Yes, but I am not positive. Do you recall what the capacity was? A. No. Q- There was only one foreman in Department 246 at the time you were the Supervisor? A. Yes. Q- So there would be times when the plant would be operating without a foreman TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 555 TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006533 37 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94__________________ 1 present? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Who was in charge during those 4 times? 5 A. The operators, and in the plant 6 there were superintendents that covered the whole 7 plant. We expected operations to be carried on 8 according to instructions. 9 Q. So in effect the operators were 10 given the responsibility of operating the plant 11 without in-department supervision? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. During either the time that you were 14 shift supervisor or the time that you were 15 supervisor, do you recall any spills of PCB's? 16 A. No. 17 Q. You indicated you were Supervisor of 18 Little Phos and PCB's until around 1953. Do you 19 recall what position you held immediately 20 thereafter? A. Yes, I was Supervisor of Hydrogenation and Benzyl Chloride. Q. How long did you hold that position? A. Until late 1955 or early 1956. Q. I am sorry, late '59? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006534 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 38 1 A. '55 or early '56. 2 Q. As Supervisor of those departments 3 you were responsible for labor yields, quality 4 control, production and maintenance? 5 A. That's right. 6 Q. Do you recall any changes in the 7 Benzyl Chloride manufacturing process from the 8 time that you were Shift Supervisor to the time 9 you became Supervisor? 10 A. No. 11 Q. The by-product HCL was still being 12 drown to the sewers during the time you were 13 Supervisor of that department? 14 A. As far as I know. 15 Q. What was the position that you next 16 held after Supervisor of Hydrogenation and Benzyl 17 Chloride? 18 A. I think my title was Stream Pollution Engineer in our Technical Services Department. Q. This is at the Krummrich Facility? A. Yes. Q. plant? Was that a new position at the A. Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006535 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 39 1 Q. You were the first one to hold it? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Who was your supervisor? 4 A. I don't recall at that time. I knew 5 later it was a fellow we called Red Taffee. 6 Q. All right. 7 A. I don't recall who I worked for 8 immediately. 9 Q. What were you responsibilities as 10 Stream Pollution Engineer? 11 A. Primarily to develop a program for 12 reduction in Phenols to the sewer. 13 Q. Is this a job you had to apply for 14 or bid for? 15 A. No. 16 Q. You were asked to take this 17 position? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Do you recall by whom? 20 A. By Jack Graves. 21 Q. What was his position? 22 A. He was Superintendent of the 23 Technical Services Department. 24 Q. He was not your supervisor, though? A. I don't recall. He may have been. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6536 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 40 1 but I don't recall. 2 Q. Do you know why you were asked to 3 take that position? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Did you have any particular 6 background or experience in - 7 A. No. 8 Q. Reduction of pollutants? 9 A. No. 10 Q. How long did you hold that position 11 as Stream Pollution Engineer? 12 A. It was -- I don't know. It was 13 later changes to Stream and Air Pollution 14 Engineer, and then it later became Engineering 15 Specialist. I don't remember the dates. 16 Q. So you went from Stream Pollution 17 Engineer to Stream and Air Pollution Engineer to 18 Engineering Specialist? A. As I recall, yes. Q. Those were all positions within the Technical Services Department? A. That's right. Q, Did your responsibilities change as your title changed? A. Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006537 41 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94_________________ 1 Q. How did they change from going from 2 Stream Pollution Engineer to Stream and Air 3 Pollution Engineer? 4 A. With responsibility for air 5 pollution problems. 6 Q. What was the position that you next 7 held after Engineering Specialist? S A. I was Manager of Environmental 9 Control as I recall it at our General Offices for 10 the Organic Division. 11 Q. When did you take that position? 12 A. About 1966. 13 Q. So you worked in the Technical 14 Services Department from '56 until '66? 15 A. That's right. 16 Q. Your initial project or 17 responsibility in the Technical Services 18 Department was to develop a program for reduction of Phenols to the sewers? A. That 's right. Q. How long did that project go on? A. Full duration of my time there. Q. Did you have any other programs or projects that you worked on prior to the time that you were given the responsibility for air? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6538 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 42 1 A. I don't believe so. 2 Q. And you don't recall when in that 3 '56 to '66 time period you were given 4 responsibility for air? i 5 A. No. 6 Q. Do you recall specific projects that 7 you worked on once you were given responsibility 8 for air? 9 A. I remember one that was emissions 10 from the Chlorophenol Department, also 11 investigation of any accidental discharges from 12 any of the departments. 13 Q. Accidental air discharges? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Can you show me where on the map the 16 Chlorophenol Department was on the map we've 17 marked as Hodges 1? 18 A. Falling Springs Road. That was west of Falling Springs Road as I recall. Q. Do you recall a department number? A. It may have been 236. Q. In or around the center of the plant? A. Yes. Q. West of falling Springs Road? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6539 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 43 1 A. As I recall, yes. 2 Q. All right. 3 A. I could be off on it. 4 Q. In the course of investigating 5 accidental discharges, did you become aware of any 6 accidental discharges from the PCB Department? 7 A. No, I don't recall any. S Q. During the time that you were Stream 9 and Air Pollution Engineer, do you recall working 10 on any other sewer related problems besides 11 reduction of Phenol discharges? 12 A. I think we started measuring some 13 COD, Chemical Oxygen Demand, from some of the 14 departments. I don't recall the specifics. 15 Q. Are there specific chemicals that 16 contribute to COD? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What are those chemicals, at least 19 in so far as they relate -- strike that. 20 What are the chemicals that 21 contribute bet to COD as you became aware at the 22 Krummrich Facility? 23 A. Any organics. 24 Q. Did you focus on specific 25 departments as you started measuring COD? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006540 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 44 1 A. I am sure we did, but I don't recall 2 which departments. 3 Q. Do you recall if PCB's was one of 4 those departments? 5 A. I don't recall. 6 Q. Why did you become interested in 7 COD? 8 A. We were improving waste treatment 9 someplace down the line, and that gave somewhat of 10 a measure of how much waste treatment would be 11 required that was related. 12 Q. When you say waste treatment, you're 13 referring to waste water? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Do you recall any other sewer 16 related projects that you worked on while you were 17 Stream and Air Pollution Engineer? 18 A. No. Someplace in the transition to 19 Engineering Specialist, I became involved in the 20 primary waste treatment plant of the Village. 21 Q. When was that? 22 A. In the early sixties. 23 Q. What was your involvement in that? 24 A. I was secretary of the -- of -7.5 whatever the name of the outfit was. Village of TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6541 45 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 Sauget Research and Development Association, I 2 think that was it. 3 It consisted of the plant managers 4 of the plant. 5 Q. Do you know if anyone from Cerro 6 served on that association? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Who? 9 A. Sandy Silverstein. There may have 10 been another man, a technical man from time to 11 time, but I don't recall his name. 12 Q. And what was this Village 13 association doing? 14 A. They were -- we were faced with 15 waste treatment and they were keeping 16 knowledgeable and advising and so forth on that. 17 Q. Advising the Village? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Fair to say you were giving the 20 Village technical guidance on how to meet its 21 requirements? 22 A. Overseeing some of the technical 23 work, yes. We hired engineers for the specific 24 technical work, but from the overall management of it and so forth we were involved. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006542 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 46 1 Q. Were there others from Monsanto who 2 were involved in that effort? 3 A. Plant Manager of Krummrich. I 4 Q. Who was the Plant Manager at that 5 time? 6 A. Bob Soden. 7 Q. Did this Village Association 8 continue after 1966? 9 A. As far as I know, yes. 10 Q. Did you continue to serve on it 11 before you became Manager of Environmental 12 Control? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Do you know who took your place on 15 that board? 16 A. Give you the choice of two. It 17 might have been Mike Pierle or Clarrie Buckley, 18 and I don't recall. Q. When issues came up during this time period -- let me withdraw that. You don't recall when it was that you became Engineering Specialist; is that correct? A. No. Q. Did your involvement with the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6543 47 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________ __ 1 Village of Sauget begin at the time you became 2 Engineering Specialist? 3 A. Not necessarily. 4 Q. Somewhere in this '56 5 period? to '66 time 6 A. That's right. 7 Q. Is it fair to say that you were the 8 principal liaison between the Village and Monsanto 9 with respect to sewer issues? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And that continued until the time 12 you moved into the General Offices? 13 A. That's right. 14 Q. Do you recall any otherprojects 15 that you worked on during the time that you were 16 in the Technical Services Department relating to 17 discharges to the sewers? 18 A. No, I don't really. I am sure that 19 if there were accidental discharges we 20 investigated them. Our primary interest was in 21 Phenols. Q Were there anyaccidental discharges that you have any specific recollection of? MR. HEINEMAN: From where? MR. RICCI: From the Krummrich TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6544 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 48 1 Facility at the time that you were attached to the 2 Technical Services Department. 3 THE WITNESS: No. 4 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Now, in 1966 you 5 moved out of the Krummrich Facility over to 6 General Offices? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What was your title again? 9 A. Manager of Environmental Protection, 10 Organic Division. 11 Q. How long did you hold that position? 12 A. Until 1975. 13 Q. That was a corporate wide position? i 14 A. No, the Organic Division. 15 Q. You were -- did your 16 responsibilities include more than one Monsanto 17 plant? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Any plant where organics were 20 manufactured? 21 A. Any plants that were in the Organic 22 Division. 23 Q. Was the Krummrich Facility in the 24 Organic Division? 25 A. Yes. There were also nonorganics TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006545 49 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 that were produced at Krummrich. 2 Q. Was the entire plant within your 3 responsibility? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Was this a new position that was 6 created by Monsanto? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. You were the first one to hold it? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Who was your supervisor? 11 A. Desmond Hosmer. 12 Q. He was promoted at the same time or 13 prior to? 14 A. Prior. 15 Q. Prior to your being promoted? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What was his title at the time he 18 was your Supervisor as Manager of Environmental 19 Protection? 20 A. I am not certain. I think it was 21 Technical Manager of the Organic Division or something like that. Q. Was he your supervisor during the your entire tenure as Manager of Environmental Protection. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006546 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 50 1 Q. What were your responsibilities in 2 this new position? 3 A. To work with the plants and 4 developing their waste control programs, keep a 5 check on that, working with control agencies 6 around the country. 7 Q. You mean governmental agencies? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Anything else? 10 A. That was essentially it. 11 Q. You indicated that you continued to 12 have some responsibility for the Krummrich 13 Facility? 14 A. That's right. 15 Q. In that it was in the Organic 16 Division? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. To the extent that you dealt with the Krummrich Facility in this '66 to '75 time frame, did you have a principal contact at the facility? A. Yes, during these periods. Q. Who was or who were they, if there was more than one? A. Early it was Clarrie Buckley or Mike TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6547 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 51 1 Pierle. I am not sure of the relationship there. 2 Later it was Paul Heisler? 3 A. Do you know when Paul Heisler became 4 your principal contact? 5 A. No. 6 Q. 7 seventies? Ballpark in the sixties or 8 A. Early seventies. 9 Q. Do you know what Mr. Heisler's title 10 was? 11 A. I don't recall, except that I saw it 12 the other day. It was director of something. I 13 forger what it was. 14 Q. He was in the Technical Services 15 Department at Krummrich? 16 A. I don't think so. I think he was 17 Director of Safety and environmental 18 responsibilities were given to him. 19 Q. So he had a different position than 20 Mr. Buckley or Mr. Pierle? A. That's right. Q. Do you know if he's still with the company, Mr. Heisler that is? A. I don't think so. Q. Do you know if he's retired? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006548 52 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 A. I don't know. Probably. 2 Q. You indicated that one of your 3 duties or responsibilities in this position as 4 Manager of Environmental Protection was working 5 with the plant in developing waste control; is 6 that a fair summary of your testimony? 7 A. Yes. S Q. Can you describe for me more 9 specifically -- let me withdraw that. 10 Do you recall any specific projects 11 that you were involved with during that time 12 period with respect to the Krummrich Plant? 13 A. Would you rephrase that? Did I have 14 specific duties in it? 15 Q. Or - 16 A. I had overall responsibilities. 17 Q. Did you initiate projects or were they initiated at the plant level? A. Plant level, sometimes at my urging. Q. Once a project was initiated what was your involvement? A. To work with the Engineering Department if it was involved and to help expedite it through the approval process of management. Q. Did you have a staff? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6549 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 53 1 A. No. 2 Q. At no time in the '66 to '75 time 3 period did you have a staff? 4 A. No. 5 Q- To the extent that -- let me with 6 that. 7 Do you recall any specific projects 8 undertaken at Krummrich during this '66 to '75 9 time period that you had any involvement in? 10 A. Yes, in PCB's. 11 Q. 12 A. 13 Q. 14 mercury? 15 A. 16 Q. 17 A. Any others? I don't recall any others. Do you recall a program relating to Now that you mentioned it, yes. Any others? I don't recall. 18 Q. Do you recall any specifics with 19 respect to the mercury reduction program? 20 A. No. I do know of cases of general 21 tightening up making certain we had no accidental 22 discharges. 23 Q. All right. 24 A. Also, of course, monitoring for 25 mercury. That was all done by the plant. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006550 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 54 1 Q. Was mercury a raw material at 2 Krummrich? 3 A. No, it was used in the manufacture 4 of Chlorine. 5 Q. Was it a catalyst? 6 A. I don't recall. 7 Q. Do you recall what the source of the 8 discharges were? 9 A. It would have been from the 10 chlorinators. It would have been accidental. 11 Q. From the chlorinators? 12 A. Well, we electrolized salt and I 13 guess you would call those chlorinators. They may 14 have had a different name, but the vessel in which 15 the electrolysis took place. 16 Q. You were in effect extracting 17 chlorine from salt? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And somehow mercury was involved in 20 that process? 21 A. That's right. 22 Q. Do you know how it was involved or 23 how it got in there? 24 A. I don't recall. 25 Q. Do you know wherethat operation TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006551 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 55 1 took place at the plant? 2 A. 3 someplace, 4 Q. 5 A. Department 232. It's in here West of Falling Springs Road? Here it is. 6 Q. East of Falling Springs Road? 7 A. Yes. That was the Chlorination 8 Department right here. 9 Q. Who was your principally liaison at 10 Krummrich with respect to the mercury reduction 11 efforts? 12 A. I don't recall. 13 Q. Probably Clarrie Buckley. 14 Q. Was he - 15 A. It could have been Paul Heisler at 16 that time. I don't know. 17 Q. Do you recall who your principal 18 contact at Krummrich was with respect to the PCB 19 Reduction Program? 20 A. Again, it was either Mike Pierle or Buckley or Paul Heisler. Q. What's the position that you held after you were Manager of Environmental Protection? A. I was Manufacturing Representative TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6552 56 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 on a waste treatment project in Belgium. 2 Q. Monsanto had a plant there? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. How long were you the Manufacturing 5 Rep on that project? 6 A. Three and-a-half years. 7 Q. What was the next position you held 8 after that? 9 A. Retirement. 10 Q. You retired in 1979? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. After you retired did you do any 13 consulting work for Monsanto? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Have you had any paid 16 responsibilities at all with respect to the 17 company? 18 A. No. Q. Who became the Manager of Environmental Protection after you left the position? A. I believe it was Mike Pierle. Q. Do you know how long he held that position for? A. No. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6553 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 57 1 Q. Was Krummrich the largest plant in 2 the Organic Chemical Division? 3 A. Yes, at that time. 4 Q. All right. 5 J A. I would like to back off on that. I 6 am not sure how he stood in respect to the Queeny 7 Plant. 8 Q. That was a plant in St. Louis? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Thatwas also your responsibility? 11 A. Yes. 12 (Short break was taken) 13 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, I would 14 like to direct your attention to this map we've 15 marked as Hodges 1 and ask you a few questions 16 about it. 17 Now, you'll see on this map that 18 there is what appears to be a 24-inch sewer line 19 that proceeds in an east-west direction north of 20 the Alton and Southern Railroad, and I am referring to this line right here. A. Is this it? Q. Yes, the dotted line. A. Oh, see it. I see the dotted line. Q. Right. Let me go back a second. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6554 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 58 1 Have you ever seen this map before 2 today? 3 A. 4 map, no. 5 Q. 6 A. 7 though. I don't recall. Not this specific Are you familiar - I am sure a map of the plant. 8 Q. Are you generally familiar with maps 9 of the sewer system in the plant? 10 A. I don't recall them. I am sure I 11 was, but my memory was very bad on it. 12 I did not recall there was a 20-inch 13 and 24-inch sewer for example. 14 Q. Do you know generally how to read 15 this map we've marked as Hodges 1? Do you 16 understand what this dotted line indicates, 17 depicts ? 18 A. More or less. 19 Q. All right. 20 A. I think so. Imean, in looking at it I do have some recollection of it, although I have certainty forgotten it all. Q. Let's see if wecan refresh your recollection at all with this map. As I stated before, there's what TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006555 59 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 ___________________ 1 appears to be a dotted line that runs into an 2 east-west direction with a 24-inch single 3 quotation mark above it. 4 Do you understand that to mean a 5 24-inch sewer line? 6 A. Yes. 7 MR. HEINEMAN: Do you know that or 8 are you just accepting what he tells you? 9 THE WITNESS: Well, in looking at 10 this I can recall. 11 MR. HEINEMAN: Okay. 12 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) That's fair enough. 13 I am not trying to put words in your mouth, but on 14 the other hand, as you look at this things may 15 come to you and that's what I am trying to get at. 16 Do you know whether this 24-inch 17 line as it runs -- well, let me go back. 18 Do you see on this map where Dead 19 Creek is depicted? 20 A. No, show me because I completely forget about that. Q. Again, on the southerly portion, southerly side of the map, there is a half of a oval that reads 36-inch Cl overflow to Dead Creek. Do you see that? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006556 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 60 1 A. I am not acquainted with that. 2 Q. I want to use that as a point of 3 reference. You see it there on the map? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Do you know whether this 24-inch 6 line that runs westward from the dotted line that 7 connects with Dead Creek was a Village sewer or a 8 Monsanto sewer? 9 A. I don't recall. 10 Q. Do you have any recollection as to 11 12 A. I think probably it was a Village 13 sewer, but I don't know. 14 Q. Do you have any recollection as to 15 when that 24-inch line was installed? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Do you know if Monsanto discharges 18 tied into that 24-inch line at all? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you know when Monsanto tied into 21 that line? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Do you know where Monsanto tied into 24 that line? 25 A. Not specifically. I think it was TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006557 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 61 1 several places. 2 Q. Now, if you look immediately north 3 of the 24-inch line that we were just discussing 4 you'll see what appears to be a 36-inch line. Do 5 you see that? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Runs parallel to the 24-ineh line? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Do you know whether that was a 10 Monsanto sewer or Village sewer? 11 A. 12 Q. 13 installed? I don't know. Do you recall when that was 14 A. No. IS Q. Do you know if it was installed 16 before or after the 24-inch line? 17 A. I don't know, but it's reasonable 18 that it was installed afterwards. 19 Q. 20 - . A. 21 increased. Why do you say that? Because as the capacity of the plant 22 Q. Do you know if the 24-inch line was 23 installed after the 36-inch line? 24 A. I don't think so. I believe not. 25 Q. You have some recollection that the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6558 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 62 1 24-inch line was in there first? 2 A. Not personal recollection. I don't 3 think I was even around at that time. 4 Q. You seem to have some feeling that 5 the 24-inch line was installed first. Can you 6 tell me what you base that on? 7 A. If we needed more capacity we 8 wouldn't have put in a small line. 9 Q. When you say we, who are you - 10 A. The Village or Monsanto. I don't 11 know which it was. 12 Q. Do you know if Monsanto tied into 13 that 36-inch line? 14 A. I am sure we did, yes. IS (Plaintiff's Exhibit Nos. 2 and 3 16 were marked for identification at this time) Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, if you trace these 24 and 36-inch lines westward past where Dead Creek is depicted on this map, it appears that the 24-inch line makes a turn due northwest of Falling Springs Road and the 36-inch line makes a turn due northeast of Falling Springs Road. Do you see that? Do you see what I am referring to? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006559 63 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94___________________________ 1 MR. HEINEMAN: Did you say as you 2 track them west? 3 MR. RICCI: I may have said that. I 4 should have said as you track them east. 5 THE WITNESS: Okay. 6 (Testimony was read back) 7 MR. RICCI: Let me start all over 8 s.Q's.in 9 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) If you trace the 10 24-inch line coming east, the 24-inch line appears 11 to break north at an area west of Falling Springs 12 Road. Do you see that? 13 A. I see it, uh-huh. 14 Q. And the 36-inch line appears to 15 extend further to the east and then break north at 16 an area east of Falling Springs Road or perhaps go 17 even on Falling Springs Road. Do you see that? 18 A. That's the way it looks, yes. 19 Q. Do you have any recollection of the 20 configuration of those sewers? 21 A. No. 22 Q. If you look at the point where the 23 24-inch line and the 36-inch line intersect, the 24 map appears to depict some kind of structure. Do 25 you see that? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006560 64 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94_____________________ 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Do you have any recollection of what 3 that structure consisted of? i 4 A. No. I assume there was a manhole 5 there. 6 Q. No recollection, though? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Do you recallwhether any of the 9 departments that you were responsible for as 10 either Shift Supervisor or Supervisor discharged 11 into the 36-inch line as it came up on or just 12 slightly east of Falling Springs Road? 13 A. I don't recall. 14 Q. Mr. Hodges, I want to showyou two 15 documents that have been marked as Hodges 2 and 3. 16 They're not very good copies, and I apologize for 17 that, but they are the best copies that we have. These are documents that were produced to us pursuant to a subpoena, I believe, to the Illinois EPA, I am not sure about that, but I can confirm that with you before the end of the day. A. Illinois EPA? Q. I believe it's the Illinois EPA, but I will confirm that. TAYLOR Sc ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6561 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 65 1 These documents, Hodges 2 as Bates 2 No. IW 1260 and 1261, and Hodges 3 has a Bates No. 3 IW 1262 through 1271. 4 MR. HEINEMAN: Do we have copies of 5 these or not? 6 MR. RICCI: As I say, these are 7 documents we recently received to pursuant to one 8 of the subpoenas or a Freedom Of Information Act 9 Request. 10 I do have copies of the requests 11 that were served, but I don't think you have 12 copies of those documents. 13 Let me just take a look here for a 14 minute. 15 (Discussion held off the record.) 16 MR. RICCI: First off, I have 17 confirmed these are documents that we received 18 pursuant to a Freedom of Information Act request 19 to the Illinois EPA Water Division, hence the 20 Bates number that we assigned to them. 21 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, let me 22 direct your attention first to Hodges 2. Do you 23 have any recollection or understanding as to what 24 that document is? 25 A. I have no recollection. I have some TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006562 66 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94_____________________ 1 understanding. 2 Q. What is your understanding? 3 A. Well, wanting information from us. 4 Q. They State of Illinois? 5 A. Yes, the Water Board. 6 Q. What did you under the Sanitary 7 Water Board to be in December of 1956? S MR. HEINEMAN: Let's be clear on 9 what you remember and what you don't. 10 The question is what did you 11 understand in 1956. I am trying to figure out 12 what's in evidence here. 13 If your only understanding is what 14 you read from it now, then tell him that, but if 15 you recall something, then tell him that. You've 16 got to be clear. I am saying you have got to be 17 clear whether you're reporting what you've just 18 now read or whether you actually recall something, that's got to be clear in the testimony. THE WITNESS: Okay. Q. (By Mr. Ricci) You've said you have no recollection of Exhibit 2? THE WITNESS: Of his paper. Of the Sanitary Water Board, yes, I do. Q. What do you understand the Sanitary TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006563 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 67 1 Water Board's responsibilities to have been in 2 1956? 3 A. Control agency for pollution or 4 water pollution. 5 Q. For the State of Illinois? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Now, in 1956 had you -- in September S of 1956, had you assumed the position of Stream 9 Pollution Engineer? 10 A. That's right. 11 Q. 12 to you? Is that why this letter is directed 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. This letter appears to -- let me 15 withdraw that. 16 Do you recall an individual by the 17 name of William Downer with the Sanitary Water 18 Board? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Do you recallhaving dealingswith the Sanitary Water Board during the time you were Stream Pollution Engineer at Monsanto? A. Yes. Q. Do you have anyrecollection of the requests for information that is included in TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6564 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 68 1 Hodges 2? 2 A. Not specifically, no. 3 Q. As you read Hodges 2, does it 4 refresh your recollection at all as to this 5 inquiry? 6 A. Yes, somewhat. We were workingwith 7 the Sanitary Water Board on our program. S Q. And this request for information was 9 part of that program? 10 A. That is right. 11 Q. Is Hodges 3 your response to the 12 request that is set forth in Hodges 2? 13 A. Appears to be, yes. 14 Q. On the second page of Hodges 3, 15 there is what appears to be a signature. Is that 16 your signature as best you can tell? 17 A. Yes. IB Q. Now, there are some maps that are attached to Hodges 3. Let me withdraw that. Is Hodges 3 a document you prepared while you were employed by Monsanto? A. Appears to be. Q. This isa document that you prepared as part of your duties and responsibilities as Stream Pollution Engineer? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6565 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 69 1 A. Appears to be, yes. Q-2 Now, the signature page indicates 3 that your title was Pollution Control Engineer? 4 A. That's right. Q.5 Is that -- is it your understanding 6 that that's the equivalent of Stream Pollution 7 Engineer? 8 A Yes. 9 Q. This letter was written before you 10 assumed responsibility for air? 11 A. I believe so. 12 Q. This letter was written by you in 13 the regular course of your duties and 14 responsibilities as a Monsanto employee? 15 A. Appears to be, yes. 16 Q. Now, there are some maps that are 17 attached to Hodges 3. Do you see those? Have you 18 had a chance to look at those? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Why don't you take a look at them quickly and we'll ask you some questions about the maps ? A. Okay. Q. Mr. Hodges, if you would look at the map that has Bates No. IW 1265. Do you see what I TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6566 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 70 1 am referring to when I say Bates number? 2 A. Yes, but I haven't found the map 3 yet. Okay. 4 Q. On 1265 can you orientate yourself 5 as to what that map depicts, the north end of the 6 plant, southern side of the plant? 7 A. It looks like the western side of 8 the plant. 9 Q. Okay. At the southern or northern 10 end? 11 A. Southern end. I guess that's Cerro 12 Copper. That's what it appears to be. 13 Q. If you look at the two parallel 14 lines that appear to be running sort of through 15 the middle 30 above the top parallel line and then 16 there's a 24 below the bottom of those two 17 parallel lines, do you see that? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. All right. A. I don't understand it. I thought that was a 36-inch line, but I don't know. Q. Let me just take you back to Hodges 1 for a second and see if we can figure this out. If you look - A. It was a larger line. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6567 71 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94_____________________ 1 Q. Right. Right. And do you 2 understand those two lines we've just discussed to 3 be the same two lines that we had previously 4 discussed in talking about Hodges 1 as the two 5 sewer lines running on the southern side of the 6 Monsanto Krummrich Plant? 7 A. Yes. S Q. Now, these are maps that you 9 forwarded to Mr. Downer in 1956; is that correct? 10 A. I assume so. I don't recall. 11 Q. You've looked at the entire packets 12 of documents that constitutes Hodges 3; have you 13 not? 14 15 A. Q. Yes. Does it appear to be, viewing those 16 documents all together, that the page that we're 17 talking about right now was included in the 18 materials forwarded to the Sanitary Water Board? 19 A. Give me that again, please. . 20 Q. As you look at the whole packet of 21 documents that I have handed to you marked as 22 Hodges 3, can you tell in reviewing those 23 documents whether the map we're discussing now was included in the packets of materials forwarded to the Sanitary Water Board in or around October of TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6568 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 72 1 1956? 2 A. Appears to be, correct. 3 Q. Do you understand from that then 4 that at least as of 1956 both the smaller of the 5 24-inch line larger 30 or 36-inch line were in 6 place along the southern side of the Krummrich 7 Plant? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. If you look again at -- I'll 10 withdraw that. 11 If you flip over to 1264, can you 12 tell what this map depicts? 13 A. Pretty well, yes. 14 Q. Can you explain it to me? 15 A. It's the southeastern section of out 16 plant with the -- this was 247, Hydrogenation 17 Department and this was Benzyl Chloride. 18 Q. Can you tell if IW 1264 picks up where IW 1265 leaves off? A. They overlap. Q. Okay. That's right. And again, if you trace the 24 and what I'll refer to as the 36-inch line, although I understand there may be some question as to whether this is a 24 or 36, if you trace those two lines again eastward, does it TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006569 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 73 1 appear to you that the 24-inch line veers north in 2 an area west of Falling Springs Road? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And the 36-inch line breaks north 5 from what appears to be on Falling Springs Road? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Can you tell from this map where the 8 Benzyl Chloride Department discharges to? 9 A. It appears to discharge into the 10 36-inch line. 11 Q. Doesthe depiction of the 24 and 12 36-inch lines as they appear on this map appear to 13 be consistent with the depiction on the map we've 14 marked as Hodges 1? 15 A. I don't know. Thisshows some cross 16 connections here. I don't know if this map shows 17 cross connections or not. I can't tell much about 18 this. This thing is more detailed than this. 19 Q. All right. 20 A. This shows interconnections. I am 21 not sure from there. 22 Q. Okay. Let's talk about those 23 interconnections for a second. 24 Focusing on 1264, can you just 25 describe for me where you see the interconnection TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006570 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 74 1 or interconnections between the 24 and 36-inch 2 lines? 3 A. Appears to be one here. 4 Q. When you say here, you're talking 5 about south of what's called the power house? 6 A. West of the power house. 7 Q. West of the power house? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. All right. 10 A. Appears to be a connection there and 11 there even appears to be something here, but I 12 don't know if those existed or not. 13 Q. If you look on Hodges 1, there 14 appear to be two interconnections that I can see, 15 but anyhow, there appears to be this 15-inch line 16 that runs from the area just west of the building 17 or the block that's marked A-233. Do you see 18 that? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And then there appears to be a 21 15-inch line running north of that in the area of 22 3rd Street? 23 A. I don't know where 3rd Street was. 24 Q. Do you see the line I am referring 25 to on Hodges 1 now? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6571 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 75 1 A. Yes, appears to be a connection that 2 may be this. 3 Q. When you say this, that's the one in 4 the vicinity of the power house? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. 7 there. Looks like there's one here and one S Q. When you say one here and one there, 9 you're referring to on 1264? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Can you tell me whether the map that 12 you forwarded to the Sanitary Water Board in 13 October of 1956 accurately depicted the sewers as 14 they existed at that time? 15 A. As far as Iknow at that time, yes. 16 Q. They did? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Can you flip over to the mapthat's 19 identified as IW 1226? 20 A. Okay. 21 Q. Can you tell me what area of the 22 plant this map depicts? 23 A. This is roughly the northern central 24 section of the plant. No, I am sorry. This is 25 the --Is ee, okay. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006572 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 76 1 This includes the north area or 2 so-called north area over here, and this general 3 section here includes the north area and some of 4 the north central portion of the main plant. 5 Q. The north central portion of the 6 main plant, the main plant being the plant south 7 of Monsanto Avenue? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Do you see Chlorinated Biphenyl 10 depicted on this map? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Is that Department 246? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And next toDepartment 246 is there 15 a label Nitrophenol and Triphenol Phosphate? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Are you familiarwith that 18 department? 19 A. Not really. 20 Q. Do you recall a facility in the 21 vicinity of Department 246 manufacturing those 22 products ? 23 A. There was a department there. I 24 didn't recall what they made. 25 Q. Can you tell from this map where the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006573 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 77 1 sewer line from Department 246 leads to? 2 A. I can't tell. 3 Q. Wait a minute here. Yes. It heads 4 west and then it heads south. 5 Q. Now, on this map there's a road 6 that's labeled Lower Cahokia Road. 7 that? Do you see S A. Yes . 9 Q. Do you know if that's the same as 10 Falling Springs Road? 11 A. It could be. I don't know. Q.12 Does it appear -13 A. It appears like it is what we were 14 calling Falling Springs Road. Q.15 How can you tell that? 16 A. This right here in front of the 17 office buildings, that was the main road down 18 there. 19 Q. And that's depicted on Hodges 1? 20 A. As Falling Springs Road. Q.21 Okay. Does it appear that Department 22 246 is discharging into the 36-inch line east of 23 Falling Springs Road? 24 A. Looks like it. 25 Q. And again, IW 1266 accurately TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6574 78 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94_____________________ 1 depicts the sewer system as it existed in Monsanto 2 as of October of 1956? 3 MR. HEINEMAN: If you know. 4 THE WITNESS: As far as I know. 5 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Do you have any 6 reason to believe that this map does not 7 accurately depict the sewer system as it existed 8 at the plant? 9 A. No. 10 Q Okay. 11 A. No reason. 12 Q. Mr. Hodges, let me direct your 13 attention back to Hodges 1 for a second, if I 14 could. 15 We had talked earlier about Dead 16 Creek being depicted on this map, and I believe 17 you testified you did not have a recollection of 18 Dead Creek; is that correct? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. As you sit here today? 21 A. I knew something existed called Dead 22 Creek. I had no recollection of it. 23 Q. Do you recall having any dealings 24 with respect to Dead Creek during the time that 25 you were working at the Krummrich Facility in the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 555 TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6575 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 79 1 Technical Services Department? 2 A. No. 3 Q. 1On this map, Hodges , the northern 4 terminus of Dead Creek appears to be just south of 5 the Alton and Southern Railroad. Do you see that? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you know whether Dead Creek ever 8 extended north of the Alton and Southern Railroad 9 on the Monsanto Plant? 10 A. I have no recollection of a nything 11 like that * 12 Q. Do you have any knowledge other than 13 personnel recollection, anybody ever talk to you 14 about it or -- 15 A. No. 16 Q. Ever hear about it? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Do you know whether Monsanto ever 19 conducted any filling activities with respect to 20 Dead Creek? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Do you know where Dead Creek went 23 south of where it's depicted on this map? 24 A. No. I knew vaguely it wentdown 25 someplace and thenheaded for the river. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006576 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 80 1 Q For the Mississippi River? 2 A. Yes . 3 Q. Do you know if it was ever blocked 4 off south of where it's depicted on this man? 5 A. I have no knowledge of that. 6 (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 4 was 7 marked for identification at this 8 time) 9 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, let me 10 show you a map we've marked as Hodges 4 for 11 identification. This is a document produced by 12 Monsanto in this litigation with Bates No. CER 13 110759. I would ask you to take a look at it. 14 MR. HEINEMAN: This is the same as 15 16 MR. RICCI: This is one of the maps 17 that we marked at the Nelson deposition. I am not 18 sure of the deposition number, exhibit number. MR. HEINEMAN: Okay. This is the sewer map that Mr. Nelson actually prepared? MR. RICCI: Yes. MR. HEINEMAN: Okay. Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Are you familiar with this map at all, Mr. Hodges? A. No. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6577 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 81 1 Q. Have you ever seen it before today? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Didyou have anyinvolvement in its 4 preparation or checking it or anything like that? 5 A. No. 6 Q. In 1971 you were working at the 7 general offices? 8 A. That's right. 9 Q. As you sit here looking at it today 10 can you identify what this map is? 11 A. Not really. I don't know what these 12 lines are. 13 Q. 14 to - 15 A. You mean the thick lines that appear I don't know what it's trying to 16 show. 17 Q. Can you tell whether this is a map 18 of the Krummrich Plant? 19 A. Looks like a general configuration 20 of the Krummrich Plant. Q. Can you tell whether that is a depiction of the sewer system of the Krummrich Plant? MR. HEINEMAN: Let me object to that as calling for speculation on the part of the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006578 82 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94___________________ 1 witness. He says he's not familiar with it, never 2 saw it before today and doesn't know what the 3 lines are on it. He doesn't know what it's trying 4 to show. It would be speculation for him to 5 answer. 6 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, let me 7 ask you another question. 8 In the course of your duties and 9 responsibilities at Monsanto, did you have 10 occasion to read maps from time to time? 11 A. I don't recall any. 12 Q. You never -- you don't recall ever 13 looking at maps? 14 A. I don't think so. 15 Q. We know you sent some maps to the 16 Sanitary Water Board in 1956; right? 17 A. I am sorry, rephrase that question. 18 What time are you talking about? Q. I am talking about any time during your employment with Monsanto? A. Oh, of course, yes. Q. And in the course of your employment with Monsanto, did you gain some skill or ability in being able to readmaps? A. Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006579 83 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94_____________________ 1 Q. Applying that skill or ability to 2 the map that we've marked as Hodges No. 4, can you 3 look at that map and tell me whether that is a map 4 of the sewer system of the Monsanto Krummrich 5 Facility? 6 MR. HEINEMAN: Objection - 7 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 8 9 objection. 10 MR. HEINEMAN: Let me make my I object to the question as calling 11 for speculation on the part of the witness based 12 upon the testimony he's already given you about 13 this exhibit. 14 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Let me ask you 15 another question, Mr. Hodges. 16 There is some printed material in 17 the lower right-hand side of the map. Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. Is there a name for that block, is there a key or title? A. I have no idea.Just information concerning the map. Q. Right below the Monsanto there is printed WG Krummrich Plant. Do you see that? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006580 84 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94____________________ 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Do you know whether Monsanto had 3 occasion to put that WG Krummrich on something 4 other than the Krummrich Plant? 5 A. I am afraid I don't understand the 6 question. 7 Q. Do you understand from the fact that S this map is labeled WG Krummrich Plant that that 9 is in fact from the WG Krummrich Plant? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And the plant is labeled Plant Sewer 12 Map. Do you see that? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Do youunderstand based upon that 15 label that this is map of the plant sewers for the 16 WG Krummrich Plant? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Can you testify to that without 19 speculating? 20 MR. HEINEMAN: Wait a minute. 21 You're asking him to say whether just because it 22 says it's a plant sewer map, that that's what on 23 here? Obviously it says the plant sewer map on 24 here, but the point is you've had testimony of the guy who drew the map. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6581 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 85 1 This man has said he doesn't know 2 anything about it. I object to having him 3 speculate about what the map shows. 4 MR. RICCI: I am just asking whether 5 he is speculating. 6 THE WITNESS: From closer inspection 7 it looks like sewer lines 1450. 8 Q. 9 Plant? (By Mr. Ricci) Of the Krummrich 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Now, if you look at the map it 12 appears to depict the 24-inch line and 36-inch 13 line we've been discussing here today. Do you see 14 that? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And it depicts the24-inch line 17 breaking northwest of Falling Springs Road. Do 18 you see that? 19 A. That's right. 20 MR. HEINEMAN: Wait aminute. I am 21 going to object to this. 22 Mr. Hodges, I am asking you, sir, 23 you're interpreting a document that he's directing 24 you attention to? THE WITNESS: Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006582 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 86 1 MR. HEINEMAN: And he's asking you 2 to say what that documents shows. You can look at 3 it and you can suppose what it shows, but what I 4 am saying is don't. 5 The purpose of this deposition is 6 for you to tell the truth about what you know. If 7 you know, then tell him. If you don't know, then S don't do that. 9 MR. RICCI; I want to put a response 10 on the record. 11 You can object to the form of the 12 question, you can instruct him not to answer if 13 you feel that's appropriate, but I have to object 14 to your coaching this witness as to how he should 15 answer the question. 16 If you object to the form of the 17 question, you can do so, but you can't sit here 18 and coach him how to answer. MR. HEINEMAN: I am coaching him to tell the truth. MR. RICCI: And if he can't testify to a question, he can certainly say so. He is perfectly able to say that. MR. HEINEMAN: You're trying to put words in his mouth by asking him doesn't that look TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6583 87 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94___________________ 1 like the 24-inch line and doesn't that look like 2 the 36-inch line, whether it does or not. 3 You've had the testimony of the guy 4 that drew the map, he told you exactly what it 5 means. This gentleman said I don't know anything 6 about it, I am not familiar with it. You're 7 asking him to create testimony, and what I am 8 saying is he should not do that. 9 (Testimony was read back). 10 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, this map 11 that we've marked as Hodges 4 also depicts the 12 36-inch line that we've been discussing; does it 13 not? 14 MR. HEINEMAN: Let me have a 15 continuing objection based upon what the witness' 16 testimony has been. 17 That testimony, for the record, has 18 been that he is not familiar with the map, he's 19 never seen it before today, he doesn't know what 20 the dark black lines on it are, he doesn't know 21 what the map is trying to show. 22 Based upon that testimony, I am 23 going to instruct the witness not to answer 24 questions about what the map shows because he's 25 already testified that he doesn't know that. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6584 88 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94_____________________ 1 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, as you 2 sit here today, can you tell me what that map 3 shows? 4 MR. HEINEMAN: You can answer that. 5 THE WITNESS: If you look at it 6 closely there's sewer lines. 7 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Those sewer lines on 8 the Krummrich Plant? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. You can tell that as you sit here 11 today? 12 A. Well, after studying it, yes. 13 Originally it didn't look like anything to me 14 because I haven't the foggiest notion what these 15 things are. 16 Q. I haven't asked you about those 17 things, but for the record, those things being the 18 dark black lines and the numbers? 19 A. Uh-huh, yes. Well, I am familiar 20 with these sewer lines here and I assume it's a 21 sewer map of the plant in 1971. 22 Q. Now, the map depicts the 36-inch 23 line proceeding eastward and then breaking north 24 in an area east of Falling Springs Road. Do you see that? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6585 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 89 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And it shows the cross connections 3 that we had discussed earlier, and there's a 4 15-inch line that appears to connect the 24-inch 5 and 36-inch line transversing Falling Springs 6 Road. 7 Do you see that? MR. HEINEMAN: Let me - 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 MR. HEINEMAN: Sir, let me make my 10 objection. Please let me make my objection. 11 I am going to object to the form of 12 the question as asking him to assume that those 13 are the same things that he saw on the other map 14 and you're not showing him the two together. 15 I am asking the witness not to 16 speculate. If you know, tell him what you know. 17 If you know they're the same thing, then that's 18 fine, tell that to him. 19 MR. RICCI: Let me just make a 20 statement here. 21 Mr. Hodges, have I in any way 22 prevented you from looking at these other maps? 23 THE WITNESS: No. 24 MR. RICCI: And I want to say to 'JC. feel free to look at these maps if you need to to TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006586 90 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94_____________________ 1 answer my questions. 2 And also, I am going to continue to 3 assert that these instructive objections are 4 improper and I don't feel they should continue. 5 MR. HEINEMAN: And I am objecting 6 because you're trying to put words in the witness' 7 mouth. 8 MR. RICCI: The record will reflect 9 what I am doing and not doing. 10 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, can you 11 tell whether these two, 15-inch lines that appear 12 on Hodges 4 as connecting the 24 and 36-inch lines 13 are the same as those depicted on the map that 14 we've marked as Hodges 1? 15 A. I would have to look at that map. 16 Q. Go ahead and why don't you do that. 17 A. They appear to be the same. Q. Now, on the map that we've marked Hodges 4, if you look at the more southern 15-inch cross connecting line there appears to be a indication plug. Do you see that? A. That's what it says uh-huh. Q. Do you know what that? A. I don't know anything about it. Q. You don 't know anything about that? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6587 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 91 1 A. I see there's a plug here. 2 Q. 3 lines, too? 4 A. 5 Q. On the more northern of the 15-inch Yes. Do you know if that means those 6 lines from some point are plugged? 7 A. Apparently. Q.8 Do you know when that -9 A. I don't know. I have no knowledge 10 of that at all. 11 Q. You don't know when they were 12 plugged, if they were plugged? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Nor why they unplugged? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Mr. Hodges, on the map that's marked 17 as Hodges 1 there appear to be triangular arrows 18 that appear from time to time on the dotted lines that depict the sewer lines. Do you see that for instance here? A. I don't see them. Q. For instance, if you look at the 24-inch line as it proceeds west from the area just north of Dead Creek right there? A. Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006588 92 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94_____________________ 1 Q. Do you see what I am talking about? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do you know what those depict or 4 what these indicate on this map? 5 A. I can assume that's the direction of 6 flow. 7 Q. Why don't you assume for purposes of 8 my questions that those arrows do depict the 9 direction of the flow. 10 If you look at what appears to be a 11 sewer line that runs from the 24-inch line on the 12 southern side of the plant due south to what's 13 depicted on the map as Dead Creek. Do you see 14 that? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Now, that line appears to have these 17 triangular arrows in both directions. Do you see 18 that? 19 A. I see that, yes. 20 Q. Do you know whatthat means? MR. HEINEMAN: He asked do you know what it means? MR. RICCI: I think it was pretty clear what I asked, Ken. MR. HEINEMAN: But the last time you TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006589 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 93 1 said -2 MR. RICCI: I move to strike this, 3 this continued instruction of the witness as 4 improper. 5 I will move to strike at the 6 appropriate time. 7 MR. HEINEMAN: Fine. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, I see an arrow 9 here and it looks like another arrow going the 10 other way. 11 Q. 12 that means? 13 14 way. 15 A. Q. 16 A. 17 Q. 18 A. (By Mr. Ricci) Do you know what That could have been flow either Flow either way? Yes. All right. Possible. Q. Are you familiar with this line that leads from the 24-inch line to Dead Creek? A. No. Q. Not familiar at all with that line? A. No. Q. Never knew about itprior to today? A. I mayhave, but I have no TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006590 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 94 1 familiarity today. I didn't even know what the 2 connection was. I was trying to remember what the 3 connection was. I had no idea. Frankly, I 4 thought it was out here somewhere. 5 Q. You were trying to remember where 6 the connection was? 7 A. To Dead Creek, yes. 8 Q. The connection between Dead Creek 9 and what? 10 A. And the Village sewer system. 11 Q. And you thought it was where? 12 A. I didn't know. I thought it was out 13 here someplace. 14 Q. And when you say out here, what do 15 you -- 16 A. West. 17 Q. You thought it was west of where 18 it's depicted on this map? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Did you think that Dead Creek was 21 west of where it's depicted on the map or - 22 A. I didn't know where Dead Creek was. 23 (Discussion held off the record.) (Lunch break was taken.) Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, you TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006591 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 95 1 testified that when you initially became the 2 Stream Pollution Engineer the first project that 3 you worked on was reduction in Phenol discharges 4 to the sewers? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. What was the genesis of that program 7 to reduce the Phenol discharges? 8 A. 9 Agency. Pressures from the State Control 10 Q. Was that the Sanitary Water Board? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. All right. 13 A. Let me paraphrase that a little bit. 14 I think our management saw it coming. Now, I am 15 not sure that the pressures had already begun, but 16 those were the early days of environmental control 17 and we knew it was going to come. 18 Q. Do you know why the focus was specifically on Phenols as opposed to other things that may have discharged to the sewers? A. That was one of the things they could measure in those days. Phenols can be very objectionable in drinking water from a taste stand point. Q. Were there specific complaints TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6592 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 96 1 regarding Phenol contamination of drinking water 2 or - 3 A. Not that I was aware of. 4 Q. Were you aware of any complaints 5 regarding Phenol contamination to fish from the 6 Mississippi River? 7 A. No, not that I was aware of. 8 Q. Do you know where within the company 9 the decision to reduce Phenol discharges 10 originated? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Where did you get your orders from? 13 A. My boss. 14 Q. Which was Mr - 15 A. At that time it was -- let's see. I 16 think Jack Graves, but I am not sure. 17 Q. What were the source or sources of 18 Phenol discharging to the sewer at the Krummrich 19 Plant? 20 A. There were numerous ones, primarily it was the Phenol producing departments, and there were a number of Phenol using departments. Q. Do you recall where the Phenol producing department was located? A. If I can find it* Approximately TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6593 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 97 1 here, I think this is it. I believe this is it. 2 Q. Okay. When you say this, you're 3 referring to an area - 4 A. 223. 5 Q. Department 223? 6 A. Yes. As I recall, that was the 7 number of the Phenol Department. S Q. What were the raw materials in the 9 production of Phenol? 10 A. I just don't remember. Q.11 Do you recall what steps were taken 12 in the Phenol Department to reduce sewer 13 discharges? 14 A. Well, there were quite a number. 15 First of all, a measuring of the losses and then a 16 general tightening up. 17 Q. When you say general tightening up? 18 A. Oh, for example, the pumps have 19 packing glands and the packing glands can leak. 20 Depending on how alert the supervision is in 21 taking take of it, there can be a loss or no loss 22 and cleaning out of the vessel. 23 Q. How did that entail sewer 24 discharges? A. Well, if you had to wash a tank out TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 855 TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006594 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 98 1 there would be some loss. 2 Q. And you recommended procedures to 3 reduce those losses? 4 A. Yes. One thing we instituted was a 5 policy of what we call sloping bottom tanks, where 6 instead of a tank that discharged out the side, 7 which was the normal practice, this was a sloping 8 bottom discharge so that when you drained the tank 9 everything went out of it. 10 There was a lot of things like that. 11 It was a general tightening up by supervision. 12 There were a few process changes, but I think they 13 were minor. I don't remember what they were, but 14 they accomplished a rather drastic reduction in 15 Phenols. 16 Q. Do you recall the extent of the 17 reduction? 18 A. About 90 percent. 19 Q. 90 percent reduction of what went 20 into the sewers? 21 A. Yes, and that was achieved over 22 about ten years. A lot of work. 23 Q. That's a ten year period '56 to '66? 24 A. Uh-huh. 25 Q. Yes? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006595 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 99 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Do you recall in terms of volume or 3 poundage what the discharges were and what they 4 became with the reductions? 5 A. Yes. We started out with an average 6 discharge of about 10,000 pounds a day and we set 7 a goal for ourselves and the Sanitary Water Board 8 of 1000. 9 Q. Did you achieve that goal? 10 A. Essentially, yes. 11 Q. That was over that ten year period? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you recall any of the Phenol 14 using departments? 15 A. Not in detail, no. 16 Q. Do you recall any of them? 17 A. Yes, there's a Chlorophenol 18 Department. 19 Q. Any others? A. As I recall, there was the Nitrophenol Department, but I am not certain as to whether Phenol was a raw material in that or dealt with the Nitro. Q. Do you recall that being a source of Phenol loss to sewer? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6596 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 100 _____________ 1 A. I don't remember. 2 Q. I am trying to focus your attention 3 now on the Phenol using departments that you have 4 a recollection were sources or potential sources 5 of Phenol discharges to the sewers? 6 A. What was the question now? 7 Q. Do you recall any other using S departments that were sources of Phenol discharge 9 to the sewer? 10 A. Not for certain. In our north area 11 there was something called 2-4 Dichloropheny1. I 12 am not certain if they used that or if they used a 13 chlorinated Phenol derivative. 14 Q. All right. 15. A. But anyplace where the discharges 16 showed up in the standard Phenol tests, that 17 included Phenol and the substitute Phenols. 18 Q. What is a substituted Phenol? 19 A. Like Chlorophenol. 20 Q. Do you recall if there were any Phenol using departments in the South Plant or Main Plant east of Falling Springs Road? A. I don't think so. I don't know. (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 5 was marked for identification at this TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6597 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 101 1 time) 2 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, let me 3 show you a document that's been marked as Hodges 5 4 for identification purposes. 5 Mr. Hodges, Hodges 5 is a letter 6 with Bates No. IW 0881 through 883. This, too, is 7 a document that was produced to us from the 8 Illinois EPA Water Division, and it appears to be 9 a letter from yourself to J. W. Goldenberg. 10 My first question is directing your 11 attention to the second page, is that your 12 signature? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And is this a letter that you sent 15 to Mr. Goldenberg? 16 A. I don't recall. It appears to be. 17 Q. Who was Mr. Goldenberg? 18 A. Village engineer. Q. For the Village of Sauget? A. Yes. MR. HEINEMAN: Then it was called Monsanto. MR. RICCI: Village of Monsanto, right. Q- (By Mr. Ricci) According to this TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006598 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 102 1 letter, Mr. Goldenberg's title is City Engineer of 2 the Village of Monsanto. Do you see that? 3 A. That's what it says. 4 Q. Do you recall Mr. Goldenberg as 5 being an employee of the Village? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you know what positions, if any. 8 he held prior to becoming City Engineer for the 9 Village? 10 A. No. Q.11 Do you know if he subsequently went 12 out on his own or became a consultant to the 13 Village? 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. Do you have any idea where Mr. 16 Goldenberg is today? 17 A. No. 18 Q. On the second page of this letter 19 there's a discussion of COD. Do you see that? 20 A. Yes. Q. And COD does stand for? A. Chemical Oxygen Demand. Q. The letter discusses reduction in COD, again on the second page at the top. Do you know whether reducing Phenol discharges to the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6599 103 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 sewer also reduced COD? 2 A. Oh, yes. 3 Q. According to the letter the total 4 COD discharge to the sewer was reduced from an of 5 223,000s pound a day to about 80,000 pounds a day? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you know if that reduction was 8 exclusively as a result of the reduction in Phenol 9 discharges or whether there were other reductions 10 that contributed to the overall reduction in COD? 11 A. Sure, there were other reductions 12 besides Phenol. 13 Q. Do you recall any as you sit here 14 today? 15 A. I don't remember any. 16 Q. If you look toward the bottom of the 17 second page of the letter there's a discussion of 18 the constituents of the COD discharge? 19 A. Uh-huh. 20 Q. If we just go down the list there's 21 an inorganic category reference to what appears to 22 be S02. What is S02? 23 A. Sulfur Dioxide. 24 Q. And NA? 25 A. Sodium Sulfite. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOO66OO 104 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 Q. Do you recall any programs to reduce 2 either of those two chemicals discharged to the 3 sewers at Monsanto during this time period? 4 A. Not specifically. As I recall, they 5 tried to recover the Sodium Sulfide and sell it to 6 a better degree than previously. 7 Q. Was that a program that was 8 implemented for the express purpose of reducing 9 discharges to the sewer? 10 A. Not necessarily. 11 Q. Did you participate in the 12 development 13 A. of that practice? I am sure I pushed for it. I did 14 not work out the technical details. 15 Q. The next chemical that's listed is 16 H2S? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What is that? 19 A. Hydrogen Sulfide. 20 Q. Do you recall anyefforts during this time period to reduce Hydrogen Sulfide to the sewer, discharges to the sewer? A. I don't recall at all. Q. Do you recall whether Hydrogen Sulfide was used or produced at the Krummrich TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOO66OI PAUL 6. HODGES 05/31/94 105 1 Plant? 2 A. 3 Q. I don't remember. The next chemicalslisted are 4 Chlorides (such as are not corrected for in the 5 COD analytical procedure). Do you see that? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you know what theparenthetical 8 refers to? 9 A. No. 10 Q. All right. 11 A. Obviously something in the 12 analytical procedure, and I don't remember what it 13 was. 14 Q. Do you recall any efforts at the 15 Krummrich Plant to reduce Chloride discharges to 16 the sewer? 17 A. No. Q. Do you recall if Chlorides were used or produced at the Krummrich Facility? A. Chlorides were used, like Sodium ... Chloride in the manufacture of Chlorine. Q. Moving down the list on Hodges 5, the next item references domestic wastes from Village inhabitants, workers, plant cafeteria. How would those discharge contribute to COD? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006602 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 106 1 A. Because they're oxidized in the 2 analytical process. 3 Q. The next entry is Acetic and 4 Glycolic Acids, Cyanuric Acid. Do you see that? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Are those materials that were used 7 or produced at the Krummrich Facility? S A. I don't recall. 9 Q. I take it you don't recall whether 10 there were any programs at the Krummrich Facility 11 to reduce their discharge to the sewers? 12 A. I don't have anyrecollection of it 13 now. 14 Q, How about rubber solids from the 15 rubber reclaiming operation? 16 A. That was Midwest Rubber Company. 17 Q. So that entry does not relate to 18 Monsanto? A. That's right. Q. The next one is aromatic organic materials Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. Were there aromatic organic materials used or produced at the Krummrich Facility? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006603 107 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94_______ ______________ 1 A. Yes. Q.2 Now, in the paragraph relating to 3 aromatic organic materials there's a reference to 4 phenolics ? 5 A. Yes. Q.6 Is a phenolic the same as Phenol? 7 A. Well, a phenolic would be a S substituted Phenol. 9 Q. You mentioned a couple substituted 10 Phenols, you talked about Chlorophenol and 11 Nitrophenol? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q- Do you recall any other substituted 14 Phenols that may have been used or produced at the 15 Krummrich Facility? 16 A. No. Let's see. I think there was 17 some Nitrophenol someplace. 18 Q. How about Methylphenol? A. Doesn't mean a thing to me. Q. There's a reference to a small amount of a wide variety of substituted benzene material such as Chlorobenzenes. See do you see that ? A. Yes. Q. Does that refer -- were TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006604 108 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 Chlorobenzenes used or produced at the Monsanto 2 Krummrich Facility? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you recall in what department or 5 departments? 6 A. 7 Q. 8 A. 9 Q. 10 compounds? 233, I believe. What was producedthere? Chlorobenzenes. Do you recall which Chlorobenzene 11 A. Several of them. 12 Q. 13 A. 14 Monochlor. 15 materials. Do you recall which of the several? Orthene, Dichlor, maybe even I don't know. They made a range of Q. Do you recall any efforts by Monsanto during this time period to reduce the discharge of Chlorinated Benzenes to the sewers? A. Yes. I don't recall the details, but we were putting pressure on all the departments. Q. Was the pressure the kind of tightening up activities that you testified to with respect to Phenol? A. Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006605 109 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 Q. Do you recall any process changes in 2 the Chlorobenzene Department to reduce discharges 3 to the sewer? 4 A. I don't recall. There may have 5 been. 6 Q. Do you recall whether the Krummrich 7 Facility used or produced Trichlorobenzene or 8 Tetrachlorobenzene? 9 A. I don't recall. 10 Q. Do you recall if either of those 11 chemicals were used in the production of PCB 12 products? 13 A. No. 14 Q. No, you don't recall? 15 A. I mean no, they were not. 16 Q. Do you know if they were ingredients 17 in any die electric or transformer fluids? 18 A. Not to my knowledge. 19 Q. There's a reference here to Aniline 20 and substituted Aniline? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Do yousee that? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Are those materials that were used 25 or produced at the Krummrich Facility? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOO66O6 no _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Where were they so used or produced? 3 A. I am sorry, I don't remember. 4 Q. Do you recall any programs to reduce 5 discharges of Analines or substituted Analines to 6 the sewers? 7 A. Same general tightening up. 8 Q. How about Alkyl Benzenes? 9 A. That was our -- I think we called it 10 the Santomer Department. 11 Q. Where was that department located? 12 A. Out in the west section. 13 Q. West section? 14 A. Uh-huh. I am sorry, I can't tell 15 you specifically, but it's out in here, in here 16 someplace. 17 Q. You're referring generally to the 18 west side of the main plant? 19 A. Yes. 20 . Q. What were -- what are Alkyl 21 Benzenes? Is there a product that includes Alkyl 22 Benzenes or is it a raw material? 23 A. I don't know whether -- I don't know if we bought Alkyl Benzene or if we made it. I don't know. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006607 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 ill 1 Q. Do you know what you used it for? 2 A. Production of Santomers. 3 Q. What were Santomers? 4 A. A detergent. 5 Q. The last reference under organics is 6 mineral oils and oils used in machine shops, plus 7 oils contained in refinery effluent? S A. Yes. 9 Q. I take it there was no refining of 10 oils going on at the Krummrich Facility? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Were there oils used in machine 13 shops at the Krummrich Facility? 14 A. Oh, yes. 15 Q. Do you recall any efforts to reduce 16 discharges of those oils to the sewers? 17 A. No, I don't. 18 Q. Do you know whether there were any 19 solvents that were used in machine shops at the 20 Krummrich Facility? A. Not specifically. Q. Do you have any general knowledge along those lines? A. No. (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 6 was TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOO66O8 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 112 1 marked for identification at this 2 time) 3 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, let me 4 show you a document that's been marked as Hodges 6 5 for identification. This is a document with Bates 6 No. IW 1282 through 1294. 7 a look at it. I would ask you to take 8 This, too, is a document that was 9 produced to us by the Illinois EPA Water Division 10 pursuant to a request under the Freedom of 11 Information Act. 12 Mr. Hodges, feel free to read the 13 whole document. My questions are going to focus 14 on the discussion of the waste reduction program 15 which begins on 1290 and continues over to 1293. 16 A. That's typical of the work we did. 17 Q. Can you tell me what Hodges 6 is? 18 A. It's a speech I gave. 19 Q. First page of it appears to be a 20 letter. Is that your signature at the bottom of 21 the first page? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you recall writing a letter to 24 Mr. Groce at the Illinois Sanitary Water Board? 25 A. No. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006609 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 113 1 Q. Do you recall Mr. Groce at all? 2 A. No. 3 Q. The attachment to this letter 4 appears to be a speech? 5 A. That's right. 6 Q. According to the cover letter it's a 7 speech that you gave at the Industrial Waste 8 Conference in Kansas City, Missouri. Do you have 9 any recollection of that conference? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Did you periodically give speeches 12 regarding waste control efforts during this time 13 period? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. As youlook at the speech, does it 16 appear to be a speech that you very well could 17 have given during this time period? A. Yes. Q. I would like tofocus your attention as I indicated previously on the discussion that begins on page 1291 of waste reduction projects that Monsanto was working on at that time. First there's a reference to a department which flakes a quite objectionable organic material. Do you see that? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOO66IO PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 114 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Do you recall what department it was 3 that you're referring to in this paragraph of the 4 speech? 5 A. No. l 6 Q. Do you recall a waste reduction 7 program along the lines discussed in that 8 paragraph and the next paragraph? 9 A. I don't recall that specific 10 instance. It's typically of the work we did. 11 Q. But you don't recall what department 12 or departments that's referring to? 13 A. No. 14 Q. A little further down you talk about 15 in the same department a project relating to a 16 Schneible tower? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Does that discussion refresh your 19 recollection at all as to what department we're 20 talking about here? A. No. Q. Do you recall this project relating to the Schneible tower? A. No. Q- Last paragraph on this page there's TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6611 115 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 a discussion of by-product Hydrochloric Acid in 2 this same department. And again, does that 3 discussion refresh your recollection at all as to 4 what department we're talking about here? 5 A. Not really, no. 6 Q. Do you recall the process discussed 7 here of purifying hydrochloric Acid by scrubbing 8 with Sulfuric Acid? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Doesn't ring a bell at all? 11 A. No. I don't question it, but I 12 don't remember it, either. 13 Q. On the next page there's a 14 discussion of another department where an organic 15 intermediate reacted with chlorine on a batchwise 16 basis. Do you know what department that is 17 referring to? 18 A. No. Q. Do you know if the department discussed in that first paragraph is Arochlors? A. I don't know. Q. Do you recall a system along the lines discussed in that paragraph being installed in the Arochlor Department? A. No. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006612 116 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 Q. Next paragraph talks about a job you 2 were working on relating to oily sludge residue 3 from a reaction that was sewered in small amounts. 4 Do you see that? ! 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Do you recall what department is 7 being discussed there? 8 A. No, I don't. 9 Q. Next paragraph there's another 10 discussion of the formation of useless by-products 11 being quite large and working on a manner to 12 influence the formation of the by-products. Do 13 you see that? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Do you know what department you're 16 talking about there? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Flip over to page 1293, third full paragraph, the largest paragraph on that page. There's a discussion of additional activities in yet another department having to do with sampling? A. Right. Q. Do yourecall what departments are being discussed here? A. That wasthe Phenol Department. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (BOO) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6613 117 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 Q. And the effort outlined there were 2 part of the Phenol Reduction Program? 3 A. That's right. 4 Q. You talk about showing the results 5 of the sampling graphically in the department 6 supervisor's office on a large chart. Do you see 7 that? S A. That's typical of the efforts. 9 Q. All right. 10 A. Trying to get the support of the 11 people. 12 Q. Do you know whether any of those 13 charts were prepared for any departments other 14 than Phenol? 15 A. I don't recall. 16 Q. Do you know if such a chart was 17 prepared for the Arochlor Department? 18 A. No, I don't think there was. I don't know, but I don't recall any such thing. Q. Primary emphasis was Phenol reduction at that point m time? A. Yes. Q. Did anybody work with you on any of the reduction programs that are outlined in Hodges 6? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6614 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 118 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Do you recall any of the individuals 3 who were involved in those efforts? 4 A. I can recall some of them* ! 5 was a Julio Munoz. There 6 Q. What department did he work in? 7 A. Technical Services, he worked for 8 me. 9 Q. 10 the company? Do you know if he still works for 11 A. I don't know. 12 Q. Any others? 13 A. A young fellow worked with me during 14 this period when I took a break in there to go 15 start up a plant in Italy. He was collecting 16 samples during that period when I was gone, but I 17 can't recall his name. It was Jack something. I 18 think Julio replaced him. Q. Any others? A. I don't recall. I think there were several fellows that were hired in and were assigned to me to give them experience, but they probably didn't stay very long helping with the work. Now, you're talking about this TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6615 119 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 period now? 2 Q. Right. This period being? 3 A. That was 1957. 4 Q. Right. 5 A. That would be JulioMunoz orthis 6 other young man. 7 Q. Jack somebody, whose name you can't 8 recall? 9 A. Uh-huh. 10 Q. Were there other people who worked 11 with you at any time from '56 to '66 on any waste 12 reduction programs? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Who were some of those individuals 15 or who all of them that you can remember? 16 A. Joe somebody. There was Mike 17 Pierle, Clarrie Buckley. 18 Q. They both worked with you or under 19 you? 20 A. Yes. Q. At that time you were basically in charge of environmental control at Krummrich? A. That's right. Q. All right. A. I think there were some others whose TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6616 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 120 1 names I can't recall. 2 Q. Do you recall Ed Stewart? 3 A. Yes, but I didn't remember Ed 4 working for me. I don't know if he came into it 5 later. I don't know his timing there. 6 (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 7 was 7 marked for identification at this 8 time) 9 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, do you 10 know if PCB's contribute to COD in the Monsanto 11 effluent? 12 A. I don't know. I would guess not. 13 Q. Why is that? 14 A. Because they have been chlorinated, 15 and that's an oxidizing process. 16 Q. Now, you indicated in one of the 17 documents that we looked at that Chlorinated 18 Benzenes did contribute to COD? 19 A. I don't know. I would doubt it. 20 Q. Let me refer you back to Hodges 5, which is letter that you wrote in December of 1963, under paragraph four, discussion of aromatics ? A. Yes. Incompletely chlorinated benzenes would contribute to COD. Benzene itself TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006617 121 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 certainly would. As you chlorinate it, the COD 2 moves right on down. 3 Q. Would the same thing hold true for 4 PCB's, if it wasn't a completely chlorinated PCB, 5 then it could contribute to COD? 6 A. I believe not because they're very 7 stable. I doubt it would show up in the COD 8 analytical process. 9 Q. Do you recall ever doing any kind of 10 tests or analyses to determine whether PCB's were 11 contributing to COD? 12 A. No. I don't remember. 13 Q. Do you recall anybody at Monsanto - 14 do you recall seeing any kind of study or analysis 15 at any time? 16 A. No, I don't recall. 17 Q. Do you know whether Biphenyl 18 contributed to COD at the Krummrich Facility? 19 A. I don't know whether it did. It 20 could. 21 Q. If it was in the effluent would that 22 contribute to COD? 23 A. If there was Biphenyls in the 24 materials it would contribute, yes. 25 Q. That's because it's not chlorinated? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6618 122 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 A. That is right. 2 3 COD? 4 5 Q. A. Q. Would Trichlorobenzene contribute to I don't know, but I doubt very much. Same hold true for 6 Tetrachlorobenzene? 7 A. Same thing. 8 Q. Mr. Hodges, in 1960 were you the 9 Krummrich Facility liaison in the Village with 10 respect to issues relating to the Village sewer 11 system? 12 A. With respect to what? 13 Q. With respect to issues relating to 14 the Village sewer system? 15 A. No. I think relative to the waste 16 treatment, which came in -- well, it started about 17 that time or a little bit later, yes, I was. 18 As far as the Village sewer system, 19 that was not my bailiwick at all. 20 Q. Were there other individuals at the 21 Krummrich Facility who interfaced regarding the 22 sewer system other the waste treatment plant? 23 A. I would say in the Maintenance 24 Department. 25 MR. RICCI: Okay. Let me show you a TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6619 12 3 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 document that we've marked as Hodges 7, and this 2 is another one you may want to get a copy of, Ken. 3 This is a document that we received 4 from the Village of Monsanto or the Village of 5 Sauget pursuant to the Freedom of Information Act 6 Request. 7 It does not have a Bates number on 8 it, but it is an attachment to a cover letter with 9 Bates No. VS 0537 that I have written in my own 10 handwriting just so we have some frame of 11 reference here, but we did not number that 12 document page by page, just included in the 13 attachment to the cover letter, which I then did 14 not bring to this deposition unintentionally. 15 MR. HEINEMAN: Okay. 16 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, I am not 17 going to ask you to look at this document page by 18 page, although you're certainly welcome to if you wish. The first question I have is whether you've ever seen this document or if you have some familiarity with it? A. I don't recall. I believe I probably saw it, but I don't remember it. Q. The document appears to have been TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006620 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 124 1 prepared by a firm by the name of Metcalf & Eddy? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Are youfamiliar with Metcalf & 4 Eddy? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What is your familiarity with that 7 company? S A. They were retained by theVillage to 9 come up with our waste treatment needs from 10 especially the primary treatment. 11 MR. RICCI: Read that answer back. 12 please. 13 (Testimony was read back) 14 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Do you recall 15 whether in November of 1960 the Village had 16 primary treatment? 17 A. It did not. 18 Q. What happened to the effluent that 19 Monsanto discharged to the Village sewer system? 20 A. Flowed to the river. 21 Q. Directly to the river? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Without any treatment at all? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Do you know whether this report that TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6621 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 125 1 we've marked as Hodges 7 was prepared relative to 2 the institution of primary treatment? 3 A. I would have to look at it, but I 4 believe it was. 5 Q. Okay. You can - 6 A. Because I don't believe we were 7 considering biological treatment. 8 Q. Biological treatment would be 9 secondary treatment? 10 A. That's right. 11 Q. Did you work at allwith Metcalf & 12 Eddy in their efforts to advise the city with 13 respect to waste water treatment? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Who was your contact atMetcalf & 16 Eddy? 17 A. Let's see. Edgerly, Claire Sawyer. Let me see. Rick Wrightman, and one other man, whose name escapes me right now. Q. What were the nature of your contacts with Metcalf & Eddy? A. Relative to sampling. As I recall, they used our samplers which we had devised, and I don't remember about the flow measurement data. I suspect they may have worked with us on measuring TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6622 126 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 flows. 2 Q. Fair to say that you cooperated with 3 Metcalf & Eddy in giving them information that 4 they felt was necessary to do their job? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. Were there other individuals at 7 Krummrich besides yourself who had contact with 8 Metcalf & Eddy? 9 A. I don't believe so. 10 Q. All right. 11 A. Out of the Central Engineering 12 Department there was a man, Cliff Stutz, but he 13 was not from the Krummrich Plant. 14 Q. He was out of the General Offices? 15 A. Central Engineering Department. 16 Q. Central Engineering is in the 17 General Offices? 18 A. Yes. Q. That's Cliff Stutz? A. Yes. Q. Turn, if you would, to Pages 9 and 10 of the report. The page numbers are in the upper right-hand corner. A. I see that John Bethel's name is there. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6623 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 127 1 Q. That's another individual? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. At Metcalf & Eddy? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Looking at Pages 9 and 10? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. There's a discussion there of the 8 Monsanto Chemical Plant that begins on Page 9 and 9 carries over on to Page 10. I would just ask you 10 to read down to the bottom of the last full 11 paragraph on Page 10. I am sorry, just read over 12 to the paragraph that's completed at the top of 13 Page 12. 14 A. Completed on 12? 15 Q. Basically 9 over to the top ofPage 16 12 okay. Now, if you feel the need to look at 17 anything further in the report to answer any 18 questions, feel free to do so. A. I was looking for Page 10 and I don't see -- oh, here it is. You say Page 12? Q. I am talking about if you could look at the discussion of the Monsanto Chemical Company which begins on Page 9 through Page 10 and through Page 11 and over to the top of Page 12. A. Okay. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 515 TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6624 12 8 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 Q. Mr. Hodges, have you had a chance to 2 review those pages of Hodges 7 that I just pointed 3 out to you? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. At the bottom of Page 9 carrying 6 over on to Page 10 there's a discussion of the 7 sewer system servicing the plant south of Monsanto 8 Avenue. Do you see that? 9 A Yes. 10 Q. Did you provide the information 11 contained in that paragraph toMetcalf & Eddy? 12 A. I don't know. It was available from 13 many other sources. 14 Q. Are you familiar with the conditions 15 described in the paragraph that begins at the 16 bottom of Page 9 and carries over to Page 10 with 17 respect to the sewers? 18 A. Yes, after reading it. 19 Q. Let me follow-up on that answer. Is 20 the paragraph that I just described consistent with your recollection of the configuration of the sewers? A. Yes. Q. Now, in the next paragraph there's a discussion of the connection between the 24-inch TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006625 129 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 line and Dead Creek through a 36-inch line. Do 2 you see that? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Did you provide that information or 5 the information contained in that paragraph to 6 Metcalf & Eddy? 7 A. I don't think so. 8 Q. Are the conditionsdescribed in that 9 paragraph consistent with your knowledge of the 10 connection between the Village sewer system and 11 Dead Creek? 12 A. I don't how to answer that. I 13 didn't know where the connection was. We've seen 14 enough stuff here today that - 15 MR. HEINEMAN: He's talking about 16 then; aren't you? 17 MR. RICCI: Well, I am talking about 18 your knowledge then and then we'll get to your 19 knowledge now. Let me ask - 20 THE WITNESS: I don't know what my knowledge then was, frankly. I was very cold on where Dead Creek was. Q. (By Mr. Ricci) You mean now? A. I don't know that I ever had anything to do with Dead Creek at any time. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006626 130 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 Q. Do you know of other sources besides 2 yourself where Metcalf & Eddy might have gotten 3 the information that's contained in this paragraph 4 on Page 10 of Hodges 7 that talks about the Dead 5 Creek connection? 6 A. Joe Goldenberg, for example, and 7 from the drawings of the sewer system. 8 Q. Does the discussion that's contained 9 in the paragraph that I have just described 10 refresh your recollection at all with respect to 11 the connection between the 24-inch line and Dead 12 Creek? 13 A. No, I have absolutely no 14 recollection of that. 15 Q. If the information contained in this 16 paragraph was inaccurate, would it have been part 17 of your responsibility to point out that inaccuracy to somebody? A. Not necessarily. Q. Why is that? A. I think I had very unclear responsibilities toward this report. I worked with them, but I don't know that I ever read all the report. I worked quite closely with them on like these flow measurements and that sort of TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6627 131 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 thing, sampling. I think they used our sampler, 2 the chloride method. 3 So in speaking of that, yes, I 4 worked with them. As far as taking this report i 5 and seeing if it was accurate, I doubt if I ever 6 all. 7 Q. All right. 8 A. But that's pretty lengthy. 9 Q. You were familiar. though, with the 10 sampling information that was in this report, at 11 least with respect to the Monsanto Facility; is 12 that correct? 13 A. Give me that again. 14 (Testimony was read back) 15 THE WITNESS: I don't quite know how 16 to answer that. I don't recall whether they used 17 our sampling results or whether this was 18 independent using our equipment or whatever. I don't know. Q. (By Mr. Ricci) On Page 11 there are some flow measurements that were taken. Do you see that at the top? A. Yes. Q. Did you have any involvement with Metcalf & Eddy in developing those flow TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006628 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 132 1 measurements? 2 A. Gave them the method. I don't 3 recall having personally participated in the 4 ! measurements, the actual sampling measurements. 5 Q. Do you know where the sampling 6 points are that discussed in the paragraph that 7 begins on Page 10 and carries over to page 11? S A. This is the one down at the bottom 9 of the page? 10 Q. Right, bottom of Page 10? 11 A. I don't recall anything about that. 12 I may very well have worked with them on it. 13 Q. On Page 10 in the paragraph that 14 begins, "The 24-inch sewer also received waste 15 water." Do you see that? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. There's astatement in there that the latter, I think it's referring to the 36-inch line, to Dead Creek serves as an overflow device at times when the Village sewer system is surcharged. Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. Do you know what that means as you sit here today? A. Yes. It's sayingthat water runs TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6629 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 133 1 down into Dead Creek and this says that it stays 2 there. 3 Q. But you don't have any recollection i 4: of that condition as you sit here today? 5 A. No, not at all. 6 Q. On Page 11 there's a discussion of 7 the 24-inch sewer serving the main area. Do you 8 see that? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do you recall assisting Metcalf & 11 Eddy in that regard? 12 A. No, I don't recall. 13 Q. Do you understand the term bubbler 14 gage reading? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What is that? 17 A. That you have an air -- smallstream 18 of air going through a bubbler and you measure it. 19 It goes out to the bubbler and that gives you an 20 indication of how high the water level is above 21 it. 22 Q. So that you use that to measure the 23 extent of the water in the sewer? 24 A. That's right. Q. Now, according to this the bubbler TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006630 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 134 1 gage reading showed the 24-inch sewer to be 2 slightly surcharged most over the time. 3 see that? 4 A. Yes. Do you 5 Q. Do you know if you had any 6 involvement in taking those bubbler gage readings? 7 A. I don't recall. 8 Q. Do you have any knowledge with 9 respect to whether the 24-inch sewer serving the 10 Monsanto Krummrich Facility Main Plant was 11 slightly surcharged most over the time as 12 indicated here? 13 A. I don't remember. 14 Q. Is there anybody else at the 15 Krummrich Plant who worked with you during this 16 time who might have more knowledge about this 17 report other than yourself? 18 A. I don't think so. Q. Top of Page 11 there's a discussion of the level measured in the 30-inch sewer, reference to the 30-inch actually on Page 10. Did you have any involvement in taking those measurements or assisting Metcalf & Eddy in taking those measurements? A. I don't remember. I could have. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6631 135 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 They used my method, but I don't recall 2 participating in it. 3 (Short break was taken) 4 (Plaintiff's Exhibit Nos. 8 and 9 5 were marked for identification at 6 this time) 7 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, S referring back to Hodges 7, and if you could flip 9 over to Page 11, there is a discussion of the top 10 of the measurements that's conducted in the 11 30-inch sewer and the conclusion that the sewer 12 was flowing nearly full at all times and the 13 variation in water depth was never greater than 14 6.4 inches. Do you see that? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Do you have any knowledge or 17 understanding as to whether that's a correct 18 statement of the flow conditions in the 30-inch sewer? A. No, I have no knowledge. Q. Do you have any reason to believe that that is an inaccurate statement of the flow conditions? A. No. Q. Similarly, with respect to the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6632 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 136 1 discussion of the flow conditions in the 24-inch 2 sewer in the next paragraph where it states -- the 3 report states that the sewer is slightly 4 surcharged most of the time, do you have any 5 reason to believe that is an inaccurate statement 6 of the flow conditions in that sewer? 7 A. I don't know. 8 Q. You don't know? 9 A I don't remember. 10 Q. My question is do you have any 11 reason to believe that's inaccurate, and your 12 answer is you don't know if you have any reason to 13 believe it's inaccurate? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Let's flip over to Hodges 8. For 16 identification purposes, it is a document that was 17 produced to us pursuant to a Freedom of 18 Information Act request of the Village of Sauget, 19 Bates No. VS 0533, and I do not have an extra copy 20 of it at the moment. 21 Mr. Hodges has already had a chance 22 to look at, so Ken, if you want to take a moment 23 to look at it, please feel free to do so. 24 MR. HEINEMAN: Go ahead. 25 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, are you TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006633 137 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 familiar with the document that we've marked as 2 Hodges 8? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Do you know if you've everseen this 5 document before? 6 A. Not to my knowledge. 7 Q. This document is dated March 15, 8 1962 and appears to have been prepared by Joseph 9 W. Goldenberg, Consulting Engineer East St. Louis, 10 Illinois. 11 Can you tell me again for the record 12 who Mr. Goldenberg was? 13 A. I knew him as City Engineerof the 14 Monsanto Village. 15 Q. You were not aware of Mr. 16 Goldenberg acting as an independent consulting 17 engineer? 18 A. Yes. I mean he was the Village 19 Engineer. That was not a full time job. 20 Q. Did you have any contact with Mr. 21 Goldenberg during the time that you were either a 22 Stream Pollution Engineer or a Stream Pollution 23 Engineer or Specialty Engineer at Krummrich? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Did you have any contact with him TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006634 138 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 relating to the Village sewer system? 2 A. I don't recall. I am sure I did, 3 but I don't remember any specifics. 4 Q. Now, you have had a chance to look 5 at this document we've marked as Hodges 8; have 6 you not? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Did you have any contact with Mr. 9 Goldenberg relating to any of the issues discussed 10 in this report? 11 A. No, I am completely cold on it. 12 Q. Do you know if there's anybody else 13 at the Krummrich Plant who may have provided 14 information to Mr. Goldenberg to be incorporated 15 into this report? 16 A. I don't know who it would be. 17 Q. Do you know if there would be 18 anybody at the General Offices who might have had 19 information to provide to Mr. Goldenberg relative 20 to this report? - A. I have no knowledge on that at all. Q. Is it fair to say that it was Monsanto's practice to cooperate with Mr. Goldenberg during this time period with respect to his work on the Village sewer system? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006635 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 139 1 A. I'm sure it was, yes. I was not 2 personally involved in that. 3 Q. If you look at the -- if you turn 4 over to the fourth page in this report, it's Page 5 No. ii. Conclusion and Recommendations. i 6 see that? Do you 7 A. Yes. S Q. At the bottom of the page, last two 9 sentences, it contains a discussion of the flow of 10 the Village sewer system. Do you see that? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. This can be observed by comparing 13 the tables containing dry weather flows with those 14 containing dry weather flows plus storm water 15 runoff. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to the conditions described in those two sentences? A. I knew of some dry weather flows. I don't recall ever doing any measurements during storm runoff. Q. Do you recall that during periods of rainfall the sewer system in the Village would become surcharged? A. Only in generalities. I have no TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6636 140 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 specifics on it at all. 2 Q. When you say in generalities, what 3 do you mean? 4 A. Well, there could have been flows to 5 Dead Creek during storm runoff, but I have no I 6 knowledge of that. 7 Q. If you could flip over to Page 11, 8 the section that deals with Monsanto Chemical 9 Company, the first sentence makes reference to 10 substantial revisions to separate treatable from 11 clear waste within the plant. Do you see that? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you have an understanding of the 14 term clear waste or treatable waste? 15 A. Well, clear waste was storm water. 16 Treatable waste was the rest of it, process 17 waters. 18 Q. Well, if you look further down in 19 that same paragraph, fifth sentence of that 20 paragraph that begins with most of the sewer 21 outlets? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. That sentence appears to distinguish 24 between storm water, clear waste and treatable waste. Do you see that? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006637 141 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 A. That's what it says, yes. 2 Q. So I'll reask the question as to 3 whether you have any understanding of the 4 distinction between storm water and clear waste 5 and treatable waste? 6 A. No. I possibly could think of 7 something, but I have no knowledge of what they 8 meant here. 9 I was assuming that the clear waste 10 was the storm water. Now, it could have been some 11 of the well water cooling that had no way of 12 becoming contaminated. 13 Q. But you don't know what Mr. 14 Goldenberg was referring to here? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Would you have been responsible or 17 had any responsibility for projects to separate 18 various waste water streams at the Krummrich 19 Facility in 1962? 20 A. Not in any manner. 21 Q. Who would have hadresponsibility 22 for that? 23 A. Apparently someone from the Central 24 Engineering Department. 25 Q. And that answer refers to a document TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006638 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 142 1 that I have showed you and we haven't discussed 2 yet? 3 4 5 A. Q. A. Yes. That we'll get to in a minute? Yes . I am completely unfamiliar 6 with this document, and to the best of my 7 knowledge I never saw it. 8 I don't think anything we 9 recommended was ever done as far as I know, any of 10 these things. 11 Q. And the separation of these various 12 waste streams did not fall within your 13 jurisdiction as a Treatment Pollution Engineer? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. You were never consulted on any of 16 these issues? 17 A. I don't think so. 18 Q. Can you flip over then to Hodges 9. For the record, this is a document that was produced by Monsanto in this litigation, Bates No. CER 113174. Mr. Hodges, I would first like to direct your attention to the distribution list at the top of this document? A. Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6639 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 143 1 Q. Can you tell whether -- can you tell 2 from this distribution list whether you received a 3 copy of this document in 1962? 4 A. It's so indicated that I did. 5 Q. Do you have any recollection of this 6 document? 7 A. No. 8 Q. They're a number of individuals 9 below your name that appear to have received 10 copies of this document, and I would like to 11 review that list with you for a second. 12 G. Hippe. Do you know who that is? 13 A. He was my boss at that time in 14 Technical Services. 15 Q. What his title? Was he a 16 Superintendent? 17 A. I don't think so. I don't know what 18 it was. 19 Q. How about R. E. Snowden? 20 A. I think he was a group leader. 21 Q. Mr. Hippe was a group leader? 22 A. Yes. There may have been some other 23 title, but I don't know. 24 Q. How about R. E. Snowden? 25 A. Plant Manager of Krummrich. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006640 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 144 1 Q. And J. Nemeth? 2 A. He had a job something similar to 3 mine at the Queeney Plant. 4 Q. G. Roberts? 5 A. I think he mighthave been Joe 6 Nemeth's boss. 7 Q. L. Sprandel. 8 Q. 9 Department. He was in our Maintenance 10 Q. At Krummrich? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. J. E. Smith? 13 A. I am not surewhat hisfunction was. 14 Q. Do you know if he was at Krummrich 15 or someplace else? 16 A. Yes. I think we had somebody like 17 that, but I don't recall him. 18 Q. Then there's a name written that 19 appears to be L. H. Davis? 20 A. I don't know who that is. Q. Do you know if Mr. Hippe isstill with the company? A. I have no idea. Q. No idea where he might be found right now? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6641 145 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94_______________ 1 A. No. 2 Q. How about Mr. Snowden? 3 A. Same thing, I have no knowledge. 4 Q. How about Mr. Sprandel? 5 A. I don't know about him. 6 Q. Mr. Smith? 7 A. Nor him. 8 Q. Can you tell fromthe face of this 9 report who the author or authors are? 10 A. Primarily John Caskey. His boss was 11 Stutz. 12 Q. 13 A. 14 Engineering. 15 Q. 16 Engineering? 17 A. 18 Q. 19 A. What the name R. E. Howard? He was a group leader in Central And Mr. Caskey was also in Central Yes. What was his title? I don't know. 20 Q. How about Stutz? 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q He was also in Central Engineering? 23 A. Yes . 24 Q. Do you know whether those 25 individuals are still with the company? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6642 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 146 1 A. I don't know. I doubt it. I know 2 Mr. Stutz is not. 3 Q. Is he retired? 4 A. Well, he was let go. 5 Q. Do you know when that was? 6 A. I am guessing about 1964 or '65. 7 might be a little later. It 8 Q. Do you know how old Mr. Stutz was? 9 A. Pretty old. He was older than I. 10 Q. He was older than you? 11 A. Yes. That would make him pretty old 12 if he's still alive. 13 Q. You have noknowledge with respect 14 to Mr. Caskey? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did you know him in 1962? 17 A. Caskey? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you know why you were copied on 21 this document? 22 A. Oh, because I was the connection 23 with stream pollution. 24 Q. There's some handwriting on the 25 front page of this document. Do you recognize TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6643 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 147 1 that handwriting? 2 A. No. 3 Q. I forget to ask you a question about 4 Hodges 7, this big one, if you could flip over for 5 a second over to Page 11 again? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. There is adiscussion in thebottom 8 paragraph on Page 11 of "N" values. 9 that? Do you see 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you know what that refers to? 12 A. I don't remember any more. I 13 probably knew at one time. 14 Q. Going back to Hodges 9, which is 15 what we were just looking at, do you know why this 16 report was prepared? 17 A. I don't really know. I don't know 18 why it was. Mr. Stutz was pushing very hard to 19 get the plant waste treatment. He wanted to leave 20 a monument behind him. My objective was just 21 exactly the opposite, to hold off waste treatment 22 until we were ready for it and had to do it. 23 I think this was some maneuvering on 24 his part to move us faster. 25 Q. What in your view had to happen in TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6644 148 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 order for you to be ready for waste treatment? 2 A. To get the waste down to an absolute 3 minimum, to study the affects of the biological 4 waste treatment. 5 Q. So it was your view that before you 6 could consider waste treatment you should do 7 whatever you can to eliminate the discharge 8 itself ? 9 A. Yes. That was the whole focus of my 10 work both at the plant and out at General Offices. 11 Q. On what do you base your conclusion 12 that the document we've marked as Hodges 9 was 13 part of Mr. Stutz's efforts to move the company to 14 waste treatment? 15 A. Purely guess. 16 Q. Is there anything in the document 17 that suggest to you that's what he was trying to 18 do? 19 A. No. Best of my knowledge nothing 20 came of the document. Q. All right. A. Same as with Mr. Goldenberg. Q. When you say nothing came of the document, what do you mean? A. Best of my knowledge none of these TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006645 149 _____________ PAUL. B,_HODGES.J,,5/31/94______________________ 1 things were ever done. I am not sure of that, but 2 to the best of my knowledge they were not done. 3 Q. The first conclusion on the summary 4 page is that the present system is adequate for 5 ! runoff rates up to 1.0 CFS per acre. 6 what CFS is? Do you know 7 A. Cubic feet per second per acre. 8 Q. So he's not recommending any change 9 in that paragraph; correct? 10 A. Correct apparently. 11 Q. And in the second paragraph on the 12 summary he's also not recommending elimination of 13 the Dead Creek and 19th Street Pond Facility. Do 14 you see that? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Now, we've talked alittle bit about 17 the Dead Creek pond, and still my question is at 18 this point does this document refresh your 19 recollection at all with respect to sewer 20 discharges to Dead Creek? 21 A. Not really. 22 Q. Were you familiar with the 19th 23 Street Pond Facility? ^A A. No. Q. All right. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6646 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 150 1 A. At least not under that name. 2 Q. Were you familiar with the pond 3 facility in the vicinity of Mobil? 4 A. No. 5' Q. Or any surcharge basin or area in 6 the vicinity of the Mobil Plant? 7 A. No. 8 Q. On the next page he talks about 9 eliminating the 19th Street pond by draining to 10 Dead Creek. Is that one of the recommendations 11 that you don't think was ever carried forth? 12 A. I don't know. I doubt it. 13 Q. There's discussion in Paragraph 5 14 that if Dead Creek is used to its full surge pond 15 capacity Lewin Mathes' sewers to Dead Creek will 16 require pumping to prevent flooding. Do you have 17 any knowledge of that statement? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Do you know whether that pumping was 20 ever implemented? 21 A. No. Q. There's discussion of installing a 48-inch overflow sewer from Manhole No. 26 to Dead Creek. Do you know what that refers to? A. No. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006647 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 151 1 Q. Do you know if that was ever 2 implemented? 3 A. 4 Q. 5 A. I don't know. I doubt it. Why do you doubt it? I just don't think it was. I don't 6 thing it was ever done. Later on the plant 7 diminished in size and I think this would have 8 affected the flows. 9 Q. How much later one on? 10 A. Through the years. 11 Q. Can you be more specific? 12 A. No, I don't know but it's a small 13 part of what it used to be today. 14 Q. Do you know whether the flows 15 decreased from 1962 to 1966 when you moved into 16 General Offices? 17 A. I don't know. 18 Q. Do you know if -19 A. I doubt it. 20 Q. Were there any significant 21 operations that were eliminated during that time 22 period? 23 A. I don't recall. 24 Q. Why do you doubt the flows decreased 25 during that time period? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006648 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 152 1 A. Well, gradually they decreased. 2 They shut down some of the operations from time to 3 time, and that would have been -- at least should 4 have caused a decrease in the flows. 5 Q. Right. But I asked you whether you 6 knew if the flows decreased in 1962 to 1966 and 7 you said I doubt it? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And my question is why do you doubt 10 it? 11 A. Well, because I don't recall any at 12 that time. 13 Q. That's a different answer that I 14 doubt it. Are you changing your answer or - 15 A. Okay. I don't recall. 16 Q. On Page 3 of the report that we've 17 marked as Hodges 9, Mr. Caskey writes that Dead 18 Creek is also used by other south sewer system 19 contributors during time of storm for temporary 20 storage. Do you see that? 21 A. I see. 22 Q. Last full paragraph at the bottom? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Does that refreshyour recollection 25 as to the manner in which Dead Creek was employed TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006649 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 153 1 in the Village sewer system? 2 A. Not really. 3 Q. During the time that you were with 4 Technical Services at the Krummrich Facility, did 5 that facility have any means of separating 6 operating storm water discharges to the sewer from 7 process water discharges to the sewer? 8 A. No. 9 Q. So that the storm water and the 10 process water were combined in the sewer system? 11 A. That's right. 12 Q. In this report Mr. Caskey does 13 various analyses of flow conditions under various 14 rainfall events. Did you have a chance to look at 15 that? 16 A. I glanced at it, yes. 17 Q. Do you have any understanding of the 18 calculations that are required to do that analysis? A. Only vaguely. . Q. Do you know what kind of engineer Mr. Caskey was? A. Probably mechanical. Q. How about Mr. Stutz? A. He was probably the civil. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006650 154 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 Q. On Page 4 of the report at the very 2 last sentence there's a statement that the Dead 3 Creek channel is sealed off at Judith Lane to 4 prevent drainage to the south, so it acts as a 5 surge pond. Do you have any knowledge of Dead 6 Creek being sealed off at Judith Lane? 7 A. I thought it flowed to the S Mississippi River. 9 Q. Or does that refresh your 10 recollection? 11 A. No, I thought it flowed to the 12 Mississippi River. 13 Q. If you flip over to Page 5 under the 14 heading Present Sewer Conditions, there is an 15 analysis that is headed CI=0.5 cfs per acre 180 16 minute duration. 17 A. Where is that? 18 Q. Right in the middle of Page 5. 19 A. Oh, okay. Uh-huh. 20 Q. Could you just take a minute to read the three paragraphs under that heading? A. Yes. Q. Do you have any understanding of the analysis that Mr. Caskey is making in those paragraphs? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6651 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 155 1 A. No, I don't really. I assume 2 they're the results of some hydraulic calculation 3 he made. 4 Q. But you don't have any knowledge of S how or why he was making those calculations? 6 A. No. 7 Q. He concludes that under the 8 conditions that he's listed Dead Creek would 9 receive a flow of 17 cfs from the south area. Do 10 you see that? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Do you have any reason to doubt the 13 conclusion Mr. Caskey reached in that regard? 14 A. No reason to doubt it. IS Q. Do you know whether the flow that 16 he's talking about as moving into Dead Creek would 17 include discharges from the Krummrich Facility? 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. Mr. Caskey goes on to do a couple of 20 other analyses using different variables on Page 5 21 and continuing over to Page 6. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And with eachcalculation he makes a 24 conclusion with respect to the discharge to Dead 25 Creek under those variables. Do you see with TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006652 156 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 respect to analysis using CI=.75? 2 A. I see it. 3 Q. My question again is do you know 4 whether in any of those calculations of the volume 5 of flow into Dead Creek that flow included flow 6 from the Krummrich Facility? 7 A I don't know. 8 Q. Do you have any reason to doubt the 9 conclusions that Mr. Caskey has come to with 10 respect to those two different sets of variables? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Did you ever evaluate the 13 advisability of using Dead Creek as a surge pond? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Did you ever look at that issue at 16 all from an environmental perspective? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Do you know if anybody at Monsanto 19 ever looked at the advisability of using Dead 20 Creek as a surge pond? 21 A. Not to my knowledge. 22 Q. Do you recall ever hearing about any 23 complaints from Cerro or Cerro officials regarding the use of Dead Creek as a surge pond? A. No. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006653 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 157 1 Q. Mr. Hodges, on Page 10 of Hodges 9, 2 Mr. Caskey does an analysis with - 3 A. Page 6? 4 Q. I am sorry. Page 6 of Hodges 9. Mr. 5 Caskey does an analysis of flow into the sewer 6 system using a variable of Cl at one cfs per acre 7 for a 45 minute duration. Do you see that? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And he concludesusing those 10 variables that there is a discharge of 54 cfs to 11 Dead Creek. Do you see that? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. I would like to refer you over to a 14 map that's included in Hodges 9 and ask you to 15 take a look at it and see if you can orientate 16 yourself a little bit and I want to ask you a 17 couple questions about it. 18 A. This looks like our plant. 19 MR. HEINEMAN: There's no question 20 pending so don't say anything, just read it. 21 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Based upon your 22 review of this map, can you tell where the 24 and 23 36-inch lines that we've been discussing in the 24 course of your deposition are depicted on this 25 map, if anywhere? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6654 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 158 1 A. It's pretty unclear. I don't know 2 if that's a plant boundary or if those or sewer 3 lines. I don't know. 4 Q. Okay. Do you see there's a key or 5 legend down at the bottom that provides some help 6 in interpreting the map, specifically it gives the 7 key for the manhole number. Do you see that? S A. Yes. 9 Q. Does reference to that key assist 10 you at all in determining whether you can locate 11 those 24 and 36-inch lines we discussed earlier? 12 A. Not really because I don't remember 13 the number of the manholes at all. 14 Q. And in all fairness, I don't think 15 they're depicted on the map we looked at earlier. 16 A. Right. 17 Q. Let me direct you back to Hodges 1 18 for a second, which is the first map we looked at. Now, just to orientate yourself Dead Creek is over here? A. Right. Q. Now, there doesappear to -- this map does appear to depict a sewer line that runs from Dead Creek to a 24-inch sewer line. Do you see that? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6655 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 159 1 A. I guess so. Is this an extension of 2 that line? 3 Q. Well, I am not allowed to answer 4 your questions here. I am only asking your 5 understanding of what you see on the map here. 6 A. Well, that's what it looks like. 7 Q. Do you understand that this little S box that is at the intersection of the line from 9 Dead Creek, 24-inch line, to be some sort of 10 structure or manhole? 11 MR. HEINEMAN: Objection, asked and 12 answered. 13 THE WITNESS: It could have been. I 14 don't know. 15 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Do you know whether 16 Monsanto process water or storm water flowed 17 through the line that runs that -- let me start 18 over with that one. 19 Do you know whether Monsanto process 20 water flowed through the 24-inch line at the point 21 where it intersected with the line leading to Dead 22 Creek? 23 A. 24 sure. 25 Q. Yes, there was Monsanto flow there, Would that flow include process TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006656 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 160 1 water and storm water? 2 A. Yes. 3 (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 10 was 4 marked for identification at this 5 time) 6 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, let me 7 show you a document that's marked as Hodges 10 for 8 identification. This is a document with Bates No. 9 CER 113159. Have you ever seen this document 10 before? 11 A. I don't recall, but I am on the 12 distribution. 13 Q. Do you understand from the 14 distribution list you did receive a copy in IS November of 1963? 16 A. I assume I did, yes. 17 Q. You don't have any recollection of 18 it, though? 19 A. No. 20 Q. If you could take a moment to look 21 at the conclusion on the first page of that 22 document? Do you have any knowledge of the 23 conclusions or recommendations made in this report? A. I don't recall them, TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6657 161 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 Q. Do you have any recollection? 2 A. As far as I know, none of that was 3 ever done. 4 Q. Did you have any involvement in the 5 development of these issues or the development of 6 this report? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Do you know if anybody at the 9 Krummrich Facility did? 10 A. Not that I'm aware of. 11 Q. Now, Mr. Caskey and Mr. Stutz were 12 with Central Engineering; is that right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Did Central Engineering have a 15 particular point of contact with the Krummrich 16 Facility? Did they have to go through the Plant 17 Manager or Technical Services or anything like 18 that? 19 A. I don't know. On some things they 20 came through me, and I assume on some things they came through the Technical Department. Q. All right. A. I don't think they necessarily worked through the Plant Manager. Q. Who was in charge of the Mechanical TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006658 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 162 1 Department in 1963 at the Krummrich Facility? 2 A. I don't remember. I think it might 3 have been -- well, I don't remember. 4 Q. Is it anybody on this distribution 5 list on Hodges 10? 6 A. Sprandel was in the Mechanical 7 Department, but he didn't head it. I don't know S who Prastka is. 9 Q. How about Spuering? 10 A. I don't know why he received a 11 report. He was in the Technical Services 12 Department to the best of my knowledge, but I 13 don't know why he got a copy. 14 Q. At Krummrich? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Is he still with the company? 17 A. I don't know. 18 (Short break was taken) 19 (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 11 was 20 . marked for identification at this 21 time) 22 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, let me 23 show you a document that's been marked as Hodges 24 11 for identification purpose. This was a 25 document produced with Bates VS 0534 through the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6659 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 163 1 Village of Sauget request. 2 I will ask you to take a look at it. 3 Mr. Hodges, have you ever seen this document 4 before? 5 A. I don't know. 6 Q. Are you familiar the firm by the 7 name of Horner and Shifrin? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. What is the extent of your knowledge 10 with respect to Horner and Shifrin? 11 A. Well, they're engineers, civil 12 engineers I think primarily. 13 Q. Are you aware they had any 14 involvement with respect to the Village of Sauget, 15 Village of Monsanto sewer system? 16 A. I don't recall anything like that. 17 Q. Is this a document that you looked 18 at in preparation for your deposition here today? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Were either Hodges 9 or Hodges 10 documents that you looked at in preparation for your deposition here today? A. No. Q. If you could just take a moment to review the summary of conclusions and TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOO666O PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 164 1 recommendations on the first couple pages of the 2 report and then I'll ask you some questions that 3 will determine whether you need to look at 4 anything else in this report or not. 5 A. Okay. 6 Q. The first numbered paragraph on the 7 summary of conclusions and recommendations talks 8 about the Village making use of two surge ponds. 9 Do you see that? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. As you sit here today, do you have 12 any recollection of those surge ponds other than 13 what may have been provided to you from other 14 documents that you've looked at? 15 A. Not really. 16 Q. In paragraph number three, there's a 17 discussion of the presence of polluted waste 18 waters in the surge pond. Do you see that? 19 A. Yes. 20 . Q. Do you have any recollection of the consideration of the issue of polluted waste waters in the surge pond in or around 1965? A. No, I didn't have anything to do with anything like that. Q. Do you know if anyone else at the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6661 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 165 1 Krummrich Facility had any involvement with the 2 consideration of that issue? 3 A. I don't know who it would be. 4 Perhaps the Mechanical Department, but that's a 5 sure guess. 6 Q. If you flip over to Page 27 of the 7 report. Paragraph 8, interceptor sewer along Dead 8 Creek. Do you see that? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Could you just take a minute to read 11 actually those two paragraphs? 12 A. I have read it. 13 Q. Are you familiar with the 14 interceptor sewer that's discussed in this 15 paragraph? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Do you have any recollection of any 18 involvement with the design or construction of 19 that interceptor sewer? 20 A. No. I have no knowledge it was ever 21 done. 22 Q. In preparation for your deposition, 23 did you look at any documents that would suggest 24 any involvement by you in the design or implementation of that interceptor sewer? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 555 TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6662 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 166 1 A No 2 (Plaintiff's Exhibit Nos. 12 and 13 3 were marked for identification at 4 this time) 5 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, I have 6 just handed you a document that has been marked 7 Hodges 12. For the record, this is a document 8 that was produced to us by the Village of Sauget 9 that we've Bates numbered VS 0563. I would just 10 ask you to take a look at that. 11 A. I have read it. 12 Q. You've read it? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Mr. Hodges, do you have any 15 recollection of attending a meeting with Mr. 16 Stutz as suggested by the document that we've 17 marked as Hodges 12? 18 A. I don't remember it. 19 Q. Did you serve on the Village 20 Industrial Committee? A. Yes, I was the secretary. It was the research and something committee, I think. Q. Well -- A. I forget what they called it. It was about the -- we had meetings with thePlant TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6663 167 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 Managers. I am not sure what the name of the 2 group was. 3 Q. All right. 4 A. This was primarily in relation to 5 the start up, the progress of the start up of the 6 primary waste treatment plant that was built. 7 Q. The document that we've marked as S Hodges 12 does not deal with the start up of the 9 waste treatment plant? does it? 10 A. Uh-uh. 11 Q. Does or does not? 12 A. Does not. 13 Q. Looking at the attendance list for 14 this meeting discussed here, just looking at that 15 list can you tell if that was a meeting of Plant 16 Managers? 17 A. I don't know. I don't think so. 18 Sandy wasn't the Plant Manager for Cerro. I don't know. It doesn't look like it. Q. Was the Plant Manger of the Krummrich Facility in attendance at this meeting according to the list here? A. No. Q. Who was the Plant Manager at that time? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006664 168 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 A. I think it was still Bob Snowden or 2 might have been John McClain, I am not certain. 3 That was about the time I transferred out of the 4 plant. 5 Q. There's a discussion in the first 6 paragraph of this memo under the heading 7 Background of proposed construction of a 18-inch 8 sewer pumping station on Dead Creek to serve the 9 Cerro Plant. Do you see that? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you recall having any involvement 12 in evaluating that proposal? 13 A. No, I don't recall it. 14 Q. There's a statement that Hodges 15 objected to the Village proposed sewer program in 16 a letter to the Village, May 25, 1965. Do you see 17 that? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Do you recall writing any such 20 letter? A. No. Q. Do you recall voicing any objection to the Village on the proposed sewer program as this memo indicates? A. No. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006665 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 169 1 Q. There's a reference to a meeting 2 among yourself, Mr. Stutz and Mr. Goldenberg on 3 May 26th, 1965. Do you recall that meeting? 4 A. No. s Q. On Page 2 there's a discussion of an 6 organic engineering study of the Monsanto Village 7 sewers. Do you see that? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Do you know if that organic 10 engineering study is either of the document that's 11 we've identified as Hodges 9 or Hodges 10? 12 A. I don't know. It would appear to 13 . 14 be, but I don't know. Q. And based upon your review of Hodges 15 9 and Hodges 10, can you tell if those reports 16 were prepared by Organic Engineering? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And were they? 19 A. I peg you pardon? 20 Q. Were they prepared by Organic 21 Engineering? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Did you have any involvement in the 24 conclusion recounted here that the present system 25 of surge ponds for storing storm water was the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOO6666 170 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 most economical method? 2 A. I don't recall. 3 Q. Do you know Mr. Wisley from Horner 4 and Shifrin? 5 A. Yes, I know him. 6 Q. How do you know him? ii 7 A. I was trying to reconstruct that. I 8 think he might have worked for Monsanto at one 9 time in the Engineering Department. 10 Q. Before or after? 11 A. I think before. 12 Q. June of 1965? 13 A. I think he left there to go with 14 Horner and Shifrin. 15 Q. Do you recall dealing with Mr. 16 Wisely with respect to the construction of the 17 interceptor sewer along Dead Creek? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Do you recall Mr. Wisely being 20 involved on behalf of Horner and Shifrin in the 21 evaluation of the Village sewer system? 22 A. Not really. 23 Q. There's a list of positions taken during discussion at the meeting that's the subject of this report, and under Cerro TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6667 171 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 Corporation it states that they would like to have 2 Dead Creek used only as a clean water channel. 3 you see that? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Do you have any recollection of Do 6 Cerro taking that position as against either the 7 Village or Monsanto? S A. No, I don't. I don't remember this 9 meeting at all. 10 Q. Flip over to the last page. These 11 minutes appear to be have prepared by Mr. C. N. 12 Stutz. Do you see that? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. That's Cliff Stutz? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. He's the one you said was fired? 17 A. Let go. 18 Q. Is there a difference between fired and let go? A. I guess not. Q. Do you know if he was let go before or after this document was prepared? A. I don't know when he was released. Q. Do you recognize Mr. Stutz's signature? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOO6668 172 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 A. No. 2 Q. You don't know if this is his 3 signature or not? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Let me show you adocument that's 6 marked Hodges 13 for identificationpurposes. 7 This is a document that was produced by the S Village of Sauget. Bates No. VS0563 was assigned 9 to this document. 10 MR. HEINEMAN: Same as the other one? 11 MR. RICCI: Yes. The reason for that 12 is that these documents -- there was a packet of 13 minutes and we Bates numbered the cover page and 14 we did not Bates number each particular page of 15 the minutes. 16 So the Bates number really refers to 17 all of the minutes of which we've taken these out. 18 To just further identify it, it's dated June 14th, 19 1965 . 20 MR. HEINEMAN: All right. 21 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) If you could take a 22 minute to review these minutes? 23 A. Okay. 24 Q. You've read it? 25 A. Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6669 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 173 1 Q. Mr. Hodges, is that your signature 2 on the last page of this document? 3 A. Looks like it, yes. 4 Q. And are these minutes of a meeting 5 of the Monsanto Village Plant Managers that you 6 prepared? 7 A. Apparently. 8 Q. 9 meeting? Do you have any recollection of this 10 A. No. 11 Q. Who was John McClain? 12 A. He was our Plant Manager at that 13 time. He succeeded Bob Snowden. 14 Q. Who was Homer Carter? 15 A. He was a superintendent in the 16 plant. I don't know why he was there. 17 Q. Do you know who George Sawaser was? 18 A. Yes, I knew George. George was with 19 Horner and Shifrin. 20 Q. How did you know him? 21 A. I am not sure it. It may have been 22 from studies at Washington University or when he 23 was working around the plant, their surveys. 24 Q. It appears from the minutes that you 25 prepared that you played a relatively active role TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006670 174 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 in this meeting, but you don't have any 2 recollection of it? 3 A. That's right. That was 30 years 4 ago. 5 Q. On the first page in paragraph two 6 you discuss a problem with respect to Cerro's 7 discharges into Dead Creek. Do you have any 8 recollection of that problem? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Any recollection of your involvement 11 or consideration of that problem? 12 A. No. I assume this was information 13 we got from Cerro. 14 Q. Under paragraph three there's a 15 discussion of inadequate discharges to Dead Creek 16 from Village sewers at the south end of the 17 Monsanto Plant. Do you see that? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Do I understand from that statement 20 that the Village sewers at the south end of the 21 Monsanto plant were discharging into Dead Creek? 22 A. That's what it says, yes. 23 Q. There's an indication that this 24 inadequate discharge caused occasional flooding 25 problems at the end of the sewer lines at the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6671 175 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 north end ofthe Monsanto Plant. Do you see that? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do you recall where these flooding 4 problems occurred? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Do you recall having any involvement 7 with respect to these flooding problems? 8 A. Not really, no. 9 Q. Do you have any recollection of this 10 being part of your duties or responsibilities at 11 this time? 12 A. Let me say it was a very minor part. 13 My job was in plant reduction, and this was 14 something else. 15 Q. Do you have any recollection - 16 A. I was happy to do it as I recall. I 17 don't remember much about it. 18 Q. You just don't recall being involved 19 in this issue? 20 A. Not in this particular issue. I recall very well being involved with the start-up with the waste treatment plant. Q. Under the discussion of other related problems not critical at this time, you talk about the capacity of Dead Creek being TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006672 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 176 1 outside the Village and the question of the right 2 to continue to use this as a polluted surge pond. 3 Do you see that? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Does that refresh your recollection 6 as to the manner in which Dead Creek was being 7 used at this time? S A. Some refreshment, yes, but I still 9 don't remember much about it. 10 Q. Do you feel that the information 11 that you included in this memo mow was accurate at 12 the time that you wrote it? 13 MR. HEINEMAN: Excuse me. Let me 14 object to the form of that question as calling for 15 speculation on the part of the witness, who says 16 he doesn't remember the meeting. 17 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Let me rephrase the 18 question. 19 Mr. Hodges, in June of 1965, was it 20 your practice to make documents as accurate as 21 possible when you were preparing the documents? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. As you sit here today, do you feel 24 that the information recounted in Hodges 12 is 25 accurate? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006673 177 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94___________________ 1 MR. HEINEMAN: Again, let me state 2 my objection the for record. 3 I still object to the question as 4 calling for speculation on the part of the 5 witness, who says he doesn't remember anything 6 that happened at the meeting. 7 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) You can answer the 8 question. 9 A. I see what I read here, but I don't 10 remember the meeting. 11 Q. This is a document that you prepared 12 and signed; correct? 13 A. That's right. 14 Q. Was it your practice to prepare and 15 sign documents in 1965 that were inaccurate? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Now, this document talks about a 18 Horner and Shifrin recommendation to separate 19 clean storm and dry weather flows from polluted 20 waste, and that's on the second page of the 21 document, middle paragraph? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you have any recollection of the 24 Horner and Shifrin recommendation in that regard? 25 A. I don't recall any. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006674 178 _____________ PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 ___________________ 1 Q. Was it possible in 1965 for Monsanto 2 at the Krummrich Facility to separate its polluted 3 waste water from its clean waste water and clean 4 storm water? 5 A. I don't know. 6 Q. I think you indicated previously 7 that at least as of an earlier time, I think we 8 were talking about 1962, at that time Monsanto's 9 sewer discharges included a combination of process 10 water and storm water? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Do you know if that was the case in 13 1965? 14 A. As far as I know. 15 Q. Were you involved in any effort to 16 evaluate whether it was possible for Monsanto to 17 separate its process discharges from its storm 18 discharges ? 19 A. I don't think I waspersonally 20 involved in it. 21 Q. If you look at Page 2 of Hodges 13, 22 Paragraph 3, there's a discussion of the inability 23 to separate Monsanto waste. Do you see that? 24 A. Uh-huh. 25 Q. Do you know if that's a reference to TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6675 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 179 1 storm water versus process water? 2 MR. HEINEMAN: Let me object to the 3 question as calling for speculation on the part of 4 the witness. 5 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. 6 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) On Page 3 of the 7 memo there's an indication that you apparently 8 outlined a proposal by Monsanto to break the 9 deadlock. Do you have any recollection of that 10 proposal? 11 A. Not at all. 12 Q. Under Paragraph 5 of your proposal 13 there's a statement persuading Wagner to cease 14 dumping chemicals in Dead Creek. Do you see that? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Who is Wagner? 17 A. I don't remember. 18 Q. Do you know if Wagner - 19 A. I can speculate. 20 Q. Do you know if they were another 21 industry in the Village? 22 A. I don't think so. 23 Q. Do you have any recollection of who 24 Wagner was? 25 A. No. I could guess that he was a TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6676 180 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 trucker. 2 Q. You don't really know that, though? 3 A. No. 4 Q. On Page 4 of the memo there's a 5 discussion of Cerro's position as stated by Mr. 6 Silverstein. Do you see that? 7 A. Yes. S Q. Take a second to review that. 9 A. I read it. 10 Q. Do you have any recollection of 11 Cerro taking that position with respect to the use 12 of Dead Creek for the ponding of polluted waste? 13 A. No, I have no recollection of that. 14 MR. RICCI: We can break for today, 15 That's all I have for today. 16 (Deposition adjourned) 17 (Exhibits attached to original 18 transcript and retained by counsel) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6677 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94 181 1 2 STATE OF MISSOURI 3 COUNTY OF ST. LOUIS ) ) ) 4 5 I, PAUL B. HODGES, do hereby certify: 6 That I have read the foregoing deposition; 7 That I have made such changes in form 8 and/or substance to the within deposition as might 9 be necessary to render the same true and correct; 10 That having made such changes thereon, I 11 hereby subscribe my name to the deposition. 12 I declare under penalty of perjury that the 13 foregoing is true and correct. 14 15 Executed this day of 16 __________1994 , 17 at_________________________________ 18 My Commission Expires 19 Notary Public: _________ 20 21 PAUL B. HODGES 22 Volume I 23 24 25 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ6678 18 2 PAUL B. HODGES 05/31/94______________________ 1 NOTARIAL CERTIFICATE 2 STATE OF ILLINOIS ) ) 3 COUNTY OF MADISON ) 4 I, DEBORAH C. WEAVER, a shorthand reporter and a duly commissioned Notary Public 5 within and for the State of Illinois, do hereby certify that there came before me at the offices 6 of Coburn & Croft, One Mercantile Center, Suite 2900, St. Louis, Missouri, 63101 7 PAUL B. HODGES, 8 who was by me first duly sworn to testify to the 9 truth and nothing but the truth of all knowledge touching and concerning the matters in controversy 10 in this cause; that the witness was thereupon carefully examined under oath and said examination 11 was reduced to writing by me; and that this deposition is a true and correct record of the 12 testimony given by the witness. 13 I further certify that I am neither attorney nor counsel for nor related nor employed 14 by any of the parties to the action in which this deposition is taken; further that I am not a IS relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties hereto or financially 16 interested in this action. 17 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and seal this 20th day of July, 1994. 18 19 1995 . My commission expires January 17th, 20 21 (Notary Public) 22 23 24 25 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0006679 PAUL L HODGES 05/31/94 181 1 2 STATE OF MISSOURI 3 COUNTY OF ST. LOUIS ) ) ) 4 5 I, PAUL B. HODGES, do hereby certify: 6 That I have read the foregoing deposition; 7 That I have made such changes in form 8 and/or substance to the within deposition as might 9 be necessary to render the same true and correct; 10 That having made such changes thereon, I 11 hereby subscribe my name to the deposition. 12 I declare under penalty of perjury that the 13 foregoing is true and correct. 14 15 Executed this 3aIP___day of 16 _______________________________1994, 17 18 19 20 22 23 ORIGINAL 24 25 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOO668O DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET NAME OF sp WITNESS: ItLu, i (jrHOclq 63 IN RE: QaffeS'fiO*! &/3/ foj Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be made: Page s Line /z- Should read^ Reason* assigned for change: l*!:n'Sjr6 to.1 f\r/'or' Page / 7 Line .$* Should read A. r^Zt'e Reason assigned for change: grhor " Page Line /H Should read i-rpyvi i*he Reason assigned for change: Page HO Line /J Should read iefkt Reason assigned for change: f*rph Page H *+ Line 2 Should read n/-* *** <*rG Reason assigned for change: ' Page Line j Should read Reason assigned for change: q Page sn Line (o Should read &/**, Reason assigned for change: j^v'r VYr*-" w ----' Page _....4.k_ Line l3 Should read 0^ Reason assigned for change: iS S'Page JO V Line Should read trie#, "ti Reason assigned for cli 3nge s ^ ^ ^ ^ -------- ^ " Svylfife. Page H O Line Jt> Should read the. $*'. Reason assigned for change : j^yr`0*' ---' Page J&l.. Line if5 Should read Li.f toe, <. . /fcA ^o/<tn0,Jl'* -- Reason assigned for change:-.rr*r' '- --' " : SIGNATURE OF DEPONENT .. f wLld f4^4y^-------- HARTOLDMONOOQ6681 DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET NAME OF WITNESS: P(UjJL. IN RE: Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be made: Page / HS Line /9 Should read How Reasont assigned for change: Page / {'&!> Line . Should read p Reason assigned for change: Page Li ne Should read Reason assigned for change: gK&sj, Page Line Should read Reason assigned for change: Page Line Should read Reason assigned for change: Page Line Should read Reason assigned for change: Page Line Should read Reason assigned for change: Page Line Should read Reason assigned for change: ,, m* Page Line Should read Reason assigned for change: Page Line Should read Reason assigned for change: Page Line Should read Reason assigned for change: SIGNATURE OF DEPONENT: HARTOLDMONOOQ6682