Document 15GG85nN5JvLQX8Mmmobnz13K
FILE NAME Roemer ROEM DATE 1983 Sept 1
DOC ROEM001
DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION Legal - Deposition of Charles H. Roemer
isa ceaall
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT ELEVENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT
MCLEAN COUNTY ILLINOIS
JOHN
WEHMEIER
Plaintiff
vs.
RAYMARK INDUSTRIES Defendants
INC
NO 229
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24
Oral Deposition of CHARLES H. ROEMER taken pursuant to notice at the Holiday Inn Totowa New Jersey on Thursday September 1 1983 beginning at approximately 10:00 a.m. before Brigitte A. Strain Registered Professional Reporter Public there being present
APPEARANCES
JAMES WALKER LTD
BY
JAMES WALKER
ESQUIRE
200 Illinois House Building
Bloomington Illinois 61701
Phone
309 828-5044
Representing the Plaintiff
PATRICK GABBERT WILKINSON GOeller
& MODESITT BY RAYMOND H.
MODESITT
ESQUIRE
333 Ohio Street Post Office Box Number 1646 Terre Haute Indiana 47808
Phone
215 692-9500
Representing Raymark Industries
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24
INDEX
WITNESS CHARLES H. ROEMER
BY MR WALKER BY MR MODESITT
DIRECT
6
~<
CROSS
--
28
REDIRECT
58
=
RECROSS
--
69
EXHIBIT NO NUMBER 1
EXHIBITS DESCRIPTION
Notice of Deposition
PAGE
MARKED 28
BREAKS AND OFF THE RECORD Break - 11:20 to 11:30 a.m. Off the record discussion from
11:50 to 11:51 a.m. Off the record discussion from
054 to 12:10 p.m.
DISCUSSIONS
27 47
54
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24
CHARLES ROEMER
3
CHARLES ROEMER having been first
duly sworn was examined and testified as
follows
THE COURT REPORTER Any stipulations
MR WALKER
This is the deposition
of Charles H. Roemer taken for evidence
pursuant to the Illinois Supreme Court Rules
by notice Mr. Roemer Illinois law gives you
the right to read over the transcript that this lady prepares and to note on it any
errors that you think she's made either in
questions or in the answers
Or you can
waive the right to read that over and note
any errors that you think she's made and in
that case the transcript will just be used as
she prepares it as opposed to being her
transcript plus your corrections
Do you wish to exercise that right
to note the errors or do you wish to waive
that right
THE WITNESS
I want to be selfish
about it
I'd like to not waive it
MD WALKER WALKER WALKWE ALR KER
That's quite acceptable
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24
CHARLES ROEMER
4
MR MODESITT
For the record and
for the defendant Raymark Industries I'd
note that this is not taken for purposes of
evidence
It is taken pursuant to notice of
discovery deposition pursuant to the Illinois
Rules and that's what I'm here for a
discovery deposition We will tender when
Mr. Walker is done with the notice for which
this deposition is taken which as presently
having stated is a Notice of Discovery
Deposition
MR WALKER
I see this notice does
say discovery
That was an error
MR MODESITT
It may be an error
but that's what we're here for
MR WALKER
I discussed with Mr.
Modesitt a week ago Monday which would be
about August 22 or whateve thre Monday is
near that the fact that this deposition
would take place on this day for evidence and
recall Mr. Modesitt asking me who Mr. Roemer
was'a and what role did he play in the asbestos
litigation
I told him that he was a person
that had the conversation with Vandiver
a ~~ cto Bee tpt had had been been taken taken in
CHARLES ROEMER - Direct
50
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24
the Manville litigation
I don't believe
that the fact that this is for evidence comes
as any surprise
If you wish to take the discovery
deposition of Mr. Roemer you're certainly
welcome to do so before I take his
evidence deposition but I do plan to take
his evidence deposition
MR MODESITT
Well I'm relying on
what the notice says Jim and the notice is
a discovery deposition
MR WALKER
Well like I said if
you want to go forward with a discovery
deposition you have that opportunity now and
if you don't want to exercise that
opportunity then the thing I had planned to do is to start the evidence deposition
MR MODESITT
I'm here because you
served a notice to take a discovery
deposition You can start whatever you're
going to start but so far as I'm concerned it is a discovery deposition
CHARLES ROEMER - Direct
6
DIRECT EXAMINATION
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24
BY MR WALKER
Q.
State your name please
A.
Charles H. Roemer
Q.
Where do you live
A.
I live in Fairlawn New Jersey
Q
What is your age
A.
84
Q.
What is your profession
A.
I'm an attorney in New Jersey
Q. Mr. Roemer how long have you been licensed
to practice law in New Jersey
A.
Well I was admitted during the February term
of the former Supreme Court of New Jersey in 1920
Q.
Has that been your profession throughout your
adult life the practice of law
A.
I have had no other profession
Q.
In what communities have you practiced law
A.
I have practiced law -- my first office was
in Patterson New Jersey and subsequently I moved my
office to Fairlawn New Jersey
And about two years
ago I moved my office again to Elmwood Park New
Jersey in Bergen County not Passaic County where
eae..2,. 2. gf
CHARLES ROEMER - Direct
7
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
Q.
So the basic office for your practice was in
Patterson for nearly all your adult life is that
correct
A.
That's correct
Q.
Did you during the course of your practice
have any contact with the firm known as Union
Asbestos and Rubber Company
A.
I did
Q.
And how did you first have contact with Union
Asbestos and when was that
A.
During - at the time that I met -- came in
contact with Union Asbestos and Rubber Company for
the first time I happened to be the Chairman of the
Patterson Industrial Commission
And I met the
president of Union Asbestos and Rubber Company and
convinced him that he ought to establish a new plant which he was planning to do in Patterson
The Union Asbestos and Rubber Company
at that time was located -- had its offices in
Chicago Illinois and its plant in Cicero Illinois There they manufactured at the time -- according to
what the president of the company told me they
manufactured railroad brakes -- brakes for railroad
cars
And they were -- had been ordered by the Navy
ee
ae
-_~_ -
CHARLES ROEMER - Direct
00
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24
establish a plant for the weaving of asbestos
blankets for the Navy either near the New York Navy
Yard or Brooklyn Navy Yard as it's often called or
the Philadelphia Navy Yard And at the conclusion following the
meeting with the president of Union Asbestos they purchased the former Nicholson File Company plant in
Patterson which was located along the Erie Railroad
Company and had previously been occupied by the
Nicholson people who are now located I believe in
Providence Rhode Island
This occurred
The plant
was located there in Patterson after Pearl Harbor
Day December 7 1941
And they were compelled to weave
asbestos blankets for the Navy from -- not from
American or North American asbestos which was
unfit for the purpose but had to weave them from
long fibered asbestos which came from Africa
Q.
Mr. Roemer after your first contact with
Union Asbestos and Rubber Company when you were
chairman of the Industrial Commission of Patterson
did you have a subsequent relationship with them where you performed some legal work for Union
Asbestos
. _
ew.
emt. 2 5c
aia incorporat incorporat incorporat them as a New
CHARLES ROEMER - Direct
9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24
Jersey corporation not for the purpose of taking title or anything like that but just to protect their name against invasion by any possible
competitors
Q.
And did you have contact with particular
people from Union Asbestos
A.
Yes
Q.
Who do you remember of Union Asbestos
employees that you met with or talked with or dealt
with
A.
The manager of the Patterson plant was Robert
Cryor of Chicago Illinois
And his assistant
manager was Ed Shuman A who so far as I
know was a New Yorker
They were both engineers
and both of them comparatively young men and both of
of them are now dead having died
asbestosis
Q. What if any contact did you have with the
health program or the ray program of Union
Asbestos and Rubber Company A. Well the only person really that they knew
that Bob Cryor and Ed Shuman knew in Patterson was Charles Roemer so that -- and I told them that I was at their disposal if they needed any help around
Patterson
hl dav Bob Crvor called and
CHARLES ROEMER - Direct
10
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24
told me that he wanted me to recommend an ray man
to them
And he told me substantially what this
ray man had to do
He said that he wanted every
employee rayed before they would finally hire them
Q.
Are you talking about an ray before the
decision is made to hire a particular employee
A.
Yes
In other words he was not -- he might
have been
selected
but he was
not
permitted
to
--
he was not considered hired until he had been
rayed and Dr. Roemer gave a favorable report He
would then be hired finally
Q.
And whom did you recommend to Bob Cryor for
this ray work
A.
I recommended Dr. Jacob Roemer who was the
former president of the Passaic County Medical
Society and who was probably the outstanding ray
man I guess anywhere who just happened to be a
cousin of mine that's all
Q.
Did Bob Cryor tell you the portion of the
anatomy which would be rayed
A.
Yes
He wanted their lungs rayed
Q.
Did he tell you the reason why he wanted the
lungs rayed
A.
My recollection is that he did not
pe
a
ne
Deramoear
accept
38 work
CHARLES ROEMER - Direct
11
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24
raying the prospective employees of Union Asbestos
A.
Yes he did
Q.
Did Dr. Roemer do any rays of the Union
Asbestos employees after they started working at the
Patterson plant
A.
Well his instructions were to ray them
every six months
Q.
Did he do that so far as you know
A.
So far as I know he did
Q.
Did he ever discuss with you his findings
from these periodic rays
A.
Yes
One day without prior appointment
Dr. Roemer appeared in my office
He said Charlie
I have got to see you about a very important matter
I said What is it
He told me that he had taken
some rays of the people who had reached the six
month period of employment and that either five or
six -- I forget now -- of them had shown signs on
their rays of some sort of serious involvement of
their lungs
And to make sure that there was no
possible mistake of judgment at his own expense he
told me he asked them to come back a second time
and a third time
a
And each
f
ee
7 Ve
time the same marks
oot 2 te
mm seme A
him
ta
CHARLES ROEMER - Direct
12
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 25
realize that some substantial changes had occurred
in their lungs And I asked him if he could explain
to me just what was occurring
He says the
asbestos dust was settling in their lungs and he
said if they remain as employees of the company
that they will not only die but die horrible deaths
So he said Charlie tell the
management to get them out of the plant as quickly
as possible I said But Doctor I said Most
of these people are married men
They have families
to support
He says Charlie I don't care if
they have to cut lawns or do something but get them
out of there and get them into some outdoor work
And I said Doctor don't you think it would more
appropriate if you informed the company of this
He says Well Charlie you have more contacts with
the management than I have had
And he says I
think it would be better if you presented it to
them
Which I did
I met with Bob Cryor an Ed
Shuman and told them what Dr. Roemer had told me
And he said -- I said I wish you'd get these men
out of the plant
He says Charles we couldn't
do it
0...
He meaning Mr. Cryor or Mr. Shuman
CHARLES ROEMER - Direct
13
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24
A.
Well they both agreed on this
They said
We have a contract with the union
And the union
contract we have provides that no one is to be
discharged without the approval of the union
So
we'll have to take it up with the union first
Subsequently they called me -- this
is maybe within a week -- and they said -- told me that the union wouldn't go along and they accused
the company of engaging in a union busting activity
And I wish to assure you that that was the last
thing in our minds
Our thoughts in -- and this was
rather shocking to me because Bob Cryor had advised
me that the company had supplied each employee with
the most expensive mine mask breathing mask I guess you'd call it the type that's used in mines That this was the latest and the most expensive mask
that money could buy at that time
And Dr. Roemer
discussed that phase with me too
He said Men are
men
He says They will sometimes kick these --
you know sort of push them aside
Q.
Dr. Roemer told you that the men found
wearing these masks to be uncomfortable and therefore would be tempted not to wear them
A.
Well or to keep them on their heads you
CHARLES ROEMER - Direct
14
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24
Q.
Keep them around their neck
A.
But not actually on their nose and mouth
Q.
Okay
A.
And --
Q.
What if anything did Union Asbestos and
Rubber Company next do after exploring what you just
discussed
A.
It was then that I came forward with a
suggestion
I said This can't possibly be a
problem for just Union Asbestos and Rubber Company
I says It must be a problem for the industry
And I says I think you had better -- I could have
done it myself but I felt it would be better if the
letter didn't come from a lawyer and if it was done
as an industry matter
I said Look right here in
our own state Manville has their big plants
and in fact there's a town named after them
Manville New Jersey
I said They're the largest
asbestos people in the world as I understand it
They must have had this problem
Let's -- why don't
you set up a conference with them and see what they
do under these circumstances
I assumed that they must have had the
same problem
So Bob Cryor set up an appointment
.
CHARLES ROEMER - Direct
15
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24
with Manville at their offices on 40th Street
East 40th Street New York for himself Ed Shuman
and myself
And we went there
And --
Q.
Let me
interrupt
you
now
--
A.
Surely
Q.
-- Mr. Roemer
This conversation you had with Dr.
Roemer can you fix that in point of time
A.
1941.
I would say that Pearl Harbor was December 7 I would say it was the fall of 1942 or at
most the spring of 1943
The reason I say that is because my
recollection was that I was wearing a top coat which
was taken from me when I arrived at their offices on
the day of the conference
Q.
Are you talking about the conference with
Manville
A.
With Mr. Brown and the president of the
company
Q.
So it was still cold enough that you wore a
topcoat
A. Q. A.
Yes
When you had the meeting at New York City
Yes
So that I would say that this
.
7
. lt.
ee
-e
Pe oe |
mk 6 61 Oo
CHARLES ROEMER - Direct
16
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24
spring of 19 -- no no no it couldn't be
Q.
Either late
42
--
A.
Late '42 or early spring 1943 because Roemer
by that time had taken the six month rays and had
made several others at his own expense
So I
assumed as I say it was either late 1942 -- I mean
fall of 1942 or -- I remember it wasn't a heavy
overcoat it was a top coat
Q.
Now when you met with the Manville
people it was at the Manville offices in New
York City
A.
Yes
We were their guests and they supplied
us with lunch after our conference was over
Q.
Which Manville employees did you meet
with
A.
Well I remember Vandiver Brown because Brown
of course was a very common name no problem
remembering that
But I had never come across the
name of Vandiver
So I remember that
And his
brother who I -- at least my recollection was that
it was his brother who was also introduced to me -his name was Brown -- introduced to me as counsel of
the company and there were several other important officials there whom -- the names I can no longer
recollect
CHARLES ROEMER - Direct
17
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24
The meeting was it the three of you that
came from New Jersey to meet with whoever was there
from Manville in one room
A.
One room
Q
Who from your New Jersey delegation set forth
the reason that you had asked to meet with
Manville
A.
I believe I did
Q.
What did you say
A.
I told them about what had happened in our
place
And I said that we had informed the
employees of this situation and the result was that
they filed Workmen's Compensation cases against the
company
And when I told them that they sort of --
well it wasn't very pleasant to hear but they made
me appear and made all of us appear as sort of --
sort of foolish
They said we're damn fools for
letting them know Q. Mean that the management of Union Asbestos were damn fools for telling the employees that they
had any problems
A.
Yes
He says they immediately go onto
compensation as a result of your alerting them He
says -- I turned to Mr. Brown and I said Do you
_
a oa
na ara, |
CHARLES ROEMER - Direct
18
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24
they drop dead
He says Yes He says We save
a lot of money that way
Q.
Did Mr. Brown say that in the presence of the
other Manville employees
A.
He said it to everybody in the room
We were
all in one -- it wasn't a conference -- it was a
normal office room in their suite -- floor they
occupied
I think they occupied one or two floors
at the time
Q.
Did any of the other Manville employees
speak up when Mr. Brown said that it was the practice of Manville to let their employees
work until they died
A.
There was no conference
I just nudged Bob
Cryor and said I think it's time for us to go
home because I thought I was going to learn
something you know that I thought would be helpful
because of the attitude and conduct of the union And here I -- we were told that we were a bunch of
jerks
Q.
I guess
Did that end your conference
A.
That ended the conference except this
That
Mr. Brown said that they had prepared a lunch for us
SO we did have lunch with them
~
Dia
-
CHARLES ROEMER - Direct
19
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24
25
A.
Right -- not in a restaurant but right there
in their office suite
Q.
Did you have any more business discussions as
it related to whether the employees should be told
about the results of their ray during this lunch
A.
No.
I -- There was nothing to discuss
I
knew what their program was
I mean
as
a
--
I
just
shriveled up
Did Mr. Brown or anyone from Manville
indicate whether or not Manville took chest
rays of its employees
A.
No.
They just indicated that that they would
depend on the Workmen's Compensation law in these
matters and they just postponed the whole affair as
long as possible
They claimed they saved a lot of
money that way
Q.
In other words they didn't tell the employee
that he had an asbestos related disease they waited
until the employee found it out from some other
source
A.
Well he was lucky if he could breathe
Roemer explained the thing to me
Q.
I understand
But to get back to your
conference with Manville was there any other
discussion with any other Manville employee
CHARLES ROEMER - Direct
20
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24
that day then about the practices of Manville as to whether or not it told its employees
A.
No further discussion about the thing
Q.
Did you or Mr. Cryor or Mr. Shuman to your
knowledge have any further contact with Manville after that meeting that day in either
late '42 or early '43
A.
Never
Q.
Did you go anywhere else in order to learn
what might be the proper action regarding these men
that had the chest ray evidence of asbestos
disease
A.
Yes I made some inquiries -- now of whom I
don't know right now -- but I do know that someone
told me I don't know whether it was Dr. Roemer or
someone else that the Metropolitan Life Insurance
Company was subsidizing or in some fashion
study maintaining a shall we say scientific
of
lung diseases at Saranac Lake in New York State And the result was that I wrote to the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company and asked them to put me in
contact with the person in charge of that particular
study
I think if my recollection is correct his
name was Dr. Lanza
And he was very secretive
oe
ee
-,
cna
thavn
crac
nothing
that he
CHARLES ROEMER - Direct
21
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24
told us at the time that was of any assistance to us
except
Q.
to explain what happens in these cases
Did he explain whether or not you should
tell
the employees or did he explain to you the mechanism
by which asbestos causes a disease
A.
No the second situation
Q.
Was Dr. Lanza's response to you in person by
phone or by letter
A.
My recollection is that it must have been in
writing because I never went to Saranac Lake to talk
to him
Q.
Did you have any other contact with any other
person other than this contact you described with
Manville and your letter to Dr. Lanza
A. with
The only other person in this situation was a
that I
lawyer
was involved
in Newark by
the
name of Arthur Meade A who was a
recognized expert in Workmen's Compensation matters
and who was hired by the company to handle its
Workmen's Compensation cases and he -- Oh the
reason that it was necessary for us to do that was
because we could not get Workmen's Compensation
insurance from any company unless we paid them a service fee for servicing them and paid the
CHARLES ROEMER - Direct
22
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
Q. So Union Asbestos and Rubber Company was self-
insured so to speak
would A.
I would say that they
have to be self-
insured because no company would take the risk
Q.
Did you ever talk with any physician other
than Dr. Jacob Roemer who advised or counseled
Union Asbestos and Rubber Company concerning this
health problem
A.
Yes
Dr. Selikoff from Mount Sinai Hospital
Q.
When did you first talk with him
A.
I had my office in the Colt Building in
Patterson
And Dr. Selikoff or Mount Sinai Hospital
I don't know which took some offices in the Colt
Building so that Selikoff could conduct a scientific
investigation of every possible living employee of
Union Asbestos and Rubber Company for the purpose of
ascertaining what was going on with them Q. This would be at what point in time
A. This would be after Union Asbestos and Rubber
Company left Patterson
Q.
During the time that Union Asbestos and
Rubber Company operated the plant in Patterson
did
you ever have contact with a physician
by the name of Oscar Cowen W
from
Chicago
a
Never heard of him
CHARLES ROEMER - Direct
23
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24
Q.
The only doctor that you're aware of that had
any relationship with the plant during the time the
|
plant was operating was Jacob Roemer
A.
That is right
Q.
You have already discussed that Dr. Roemer
had this contact in
'42 and possibly early '43
Do
you know how long Dr. Roemer had a relationship with
the plant
A.
I would say as long as they were in Patterson
Q.
So far as you know Dr. Roemer continued to
maintain this ray surveillance of the employees
from time to time while he worked at the plant
A.
That's right
Q.
Did you ever render any legal services for
Union Asbestos and Rubber Company after the early
forties
A.
As I say I incorporated Union Asbestos and
Rubber Company in New Jersey
And I believe I -- I
no longer have these files
I believe I represented
them when they sold the plant when they left
Patterson
Q.
That's the only two pieces of work that you
did for them that you remember
A.
Yes that's right
ee
namnam ofof any other
CHARLES ROEMER - Direct
24
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24
employees that you had contact with over the years that the plant was open in addition to Cryor and
Shuman
A.
I knew no other employees
That is I had no
contact with them
I might say this
The -- I
visited the plant from time to time and the result
was that Selikoff even rayed me to make sure I
didn't have it
Q.
With whom would you visit the plant
Was it
a regular thing or just --
A.
No.
On occasion they wanted certain
information and understanding the nature of the
thing I would consider it Industrial Commission work and I'd get it to them as quickly as possible
Q.
So you continued to be Chairman of the
Industrial Commission or related to the Industrial
Commission during that time
A.
Yes during the entire period
Q.
And that was the reason for these periodic
contacts
A.
Yes
Q.
You probably had similar contacts with other
Patterson businesses during that time
A.
Yes many of them
ee
ia
tha
etil)
iving
CHARLES ROEMER - Direct
25
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24
A.
No he is not
Q.
When did he die
A.
Gee I should remember that
Q.
Well just approximately
A.
I could say -- Let's see now
I would say he
must have died about 1964 or five
Q.
When Dr. Selikoff took office space near you
in the Colt Building in Patterson did he contact
you or was there any contact that you know of
between Dr. Selikoff and Union Asbestos s0 as far as
cooperation on this study is concerned
A.
only
Well he conferred with that but he was a little
me many times
presumptuous
and I
not
thought because -- I guess he didn't want to waste
his time he didn't care about my wasting my time
There was hardly a reasonable period that passed
that somebody didn't walk in the office that I knew
nothing of
They would just tell me that Dr.
Selikoff sent them to me because
I knew all about
Union Asbestos and Rubber Company
He was
constantly sending people to me
But not only that
but every time he had to deliver a speech in
Patterson about asbestosis he would invariably send
me some tickets for the speech and then torment me
CHARLES ROEMER - Direct
26
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25
who brought Union Asbestos and Rubber Company to
Patterson
Q.
I take it when you brought Union Asbestos and
Rubber Company to Patterson if in fact that is a
way to characterize what you did you weren't aware
at the time that there was any health hazard
associated with asbestos
A.
Not the slightest
My house was loaded with
asbestos
I had to make sure that no breezes would
blow on the kids at home
Q.
When did Selikoff first talk with you about
there being some health problem with the men who had
worked at Patterson
A.
I'll say this that I received a letter from
him which I still have -- I found it accidentally the other day in going through some personal letters -- in which he -- I think it was 1975 I think or maybe earlier than that but at any rate whatever
it was it was a letter that he sent to me in which
he acknowledged the contributions that he said Jack
Roemer he called it --- or Jake Roemer in the letter and myself had made in the arresting of asbestosis
in the United States
Q.
That wouldn't have been the time you first
visited with him
CHARLES ROEMER - Direct
27
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25
A.
No.
Q.
When did you first visit with Dr. Selikoff
In other words there was a point in time when you
didn't know Selikoff right
A.
I didn't know him from a hole in the ground
Q.
When did he first come into your life so far
as talking with you about there being a health
problem among the former Patterson workers
Would
that be when he first moved into the Colt Building
A.
Yes that was the first time
.
Q.
You thought that was about right
A.
And he did not occupy offices on the same
floor but I think they were a floor apart and one
day he called me and asked me to come up to see him
I went up there and I told him essentially what I
have told you today
Q.
That included the conversation with Vandiver
Brown
A.
That's right
Q.
That would have been in what year that you
told Dr. Selikoff
A.
I would say in the sixties
Q.
Would you like to take a break now
A.
No no I'm all right
Whereupon there was a recess in the
CHARLES ROEMER - Cross
28
proceedings from 11:20 a.m.to 11:30 a.m.
CROSS EXAMINATION
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24
BY MR MODESITT
Q
Ro emer where is your home address
A.
You mean the street address
Yes where do you actually live
37-27 Berdan Ave.
s that in -
In Fairlawn
What's the zip code there
07410 What your telephone number at home At home is with SW6-4337
Q.
643 --
A.
796-4337
I'm going to hand you --
MR MODESITT
Would you mark that
please
Whereupon the Court Reporter marked Roemer Exhibit Number 1 for identification
purposes as of this date September 1
1983.
map
CY Fee oh Oe ~ i mm .
CHARLES ROEMER - Cross
29
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
22 22 22 23 24
Q.
I'm going to hand what's been marked as
Roemer Number One
And ask you is that a notice of
the discovery deposition regarding this deposition
today
A.
That's right
Q.
How did you receive that
A.
In the mail
Q.
From Mr. Walker
A.
Yes
Q.
Did it come with a cover letter
A. Q. A.
Yes What was the contents of the cover letter Just to the effect that enclosed -- he's
enclosing the notice of the deposition
0
Do you have the cover letter with you
A.
Yes I believe I have
Witness handing letter to Mr.
Modesitt
MR MODESITT
At this time the
defendant would ask that Roemer Deposition
Exhibit Number One which is the Notice of
this discovery deposition be made part of and included as a part of this particular
transcript
CHARLES ROEMER - Cross
30
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24
Q.
You mentioned during your direct examination
that you first became aware of Union Asbestos and
Rubber Company shortly after Pearl Harbor in 19417
A.
Yes
Q.
You were at that time what the Chairman of
the Industrial Commission
A.
Of Patterson yes
Q.
Is that a city --
A.
City Board yes
Q.
Was one of their functions to recruit new
businesses that kind of thing
A.
That's right
Q.
Was Bob Cryor the person that you went to
talk to
A.
No I never met Bob Cryor until the plant was
established in Patterson
Q.
Who did you talk to
A.
I spoke to the President of Union Asbestos
and Rubber Company
Q.
Do you remember who that was at that time
A.
I believe his name was Cohen if I'm not
mistaken
Q. A.
Cohen
Yes either N I believe or N
ee
Sas
eee
ae
Patterson PatersonPatterPatersons Patteo rson n Paterson Paterson
CHARLES ROEMER - Cross
31
10 11 12 13
14
15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24
35 35
and wanted to know what we had to offer
I told him
about -- he wanted a plant with a railroad siding
and I was the one that alerted him to the fact that
the Nicholson plant was available
Q.
And did you then assist in the purchasing of
that plant
A.
No I had nothing to do with that
Q.
Did you do any of the legal work involved
with the acquisition of the plant
A.
I am inclined to think I did
I probably
made the searches and secured the title policies and
all that sort of thing
Q.
Do you happen to know when that plant
actually opened for business for Unarco or for Union
Asbestos and Rubber Company
A.
I would say in the spring of 1942
Q
That's your best recollection
A.
Yes
Q
Is that when they actually starting producing
A.
I would say yes
Q.
You --
A.
Because it was a magnificent plant
I mean
structurally it was a solid plant
I mean one of
the best we had
nr
What kind of business did Nicholson File run
CHARLES ROEMER - Cross
32
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
21 22 23 24
out of it
A.
They made steel files you know that you'd
use in filing steel or iron or things of that -- you
know the files
I don't know what else
Q.
You mean like a carpenter would carry around
a file or are you talking about a file cabinet
A.
Oh no no no no no no
A real file
E
Not -- nothing to do with storing of any
kind Q.
Like a sheet metal worker would carry with
him
A.
Yes
I think so or a plumber you know
whoever would have occasion to use it
Q.
What kind of asbestos did they use at that
plant
A.
It was imported from Africa
Now as I say
I don't know now whether it was from North or South
Africa but I do know that on one or two occasions
ship loads of that asbestos were sunk by German submarines and the plant was really almost ready to close except that another ship would arrive just in
time
Q.
Would you recognize whether or not you were
talking about a crocidolite type of fiber or an
ne mertiban
biunrama
of
fiber
CHARLES ROEMER - Cross
33
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A.
Those words mean nothing to me
Q.
You used the phraseology earlier here in your
direct examination long fiber from South Africa
A.
Yes
The reason that they had to get it from
South Africa is because they didn't just have to
make an asbestos covering they had to make blankets
And blankets had to be woven so that they could be
wrapped around the pipes of these destroyers and other vessels so that they could concentrate the
greatest amount of power in the least amount of
space
I don't know whether I made myself
clear on that
Q.
Was that also for fire protection upon the
vessels
A.
I presume
Q. A.
Or do you know I don't know but I -- the main reason - if
it was just fire protection they could have used
American or Canadian asbestos Q. You indicated that you had this conversation with various persons of Manville and I believe
Mr. Cryor went with you and Mr. Shuman
A.
That's right
Q. Was Mr. Cryor at that time still in Chicago
CHARLES ROEMER - Cross
34
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24
or did he have the direct responsibility for --
A.
No he was then the manager
Q.
Is that a working manager of Patterson New
Jersey
A.
Yes that's right
Q.
Was he also alarmed with the response or
surprised with the response that he had heard from
Mr. Brown
A.
Well they knew that I didn't prolong the
conference
They knew that
There was no occasion
to prolong it And they also did not oppose my suggestion about -- I mean there was nothing to indicate that he wanted to change our policy
Q.
What was Union Asbestos policy at that time
A.
At that time of course as far as Bob Cryor
and Ed Shuman were concerned they did not know --
as far as I was concerned they did not know of the
fact that asbestosis was anything other than and
irritating problem if you didn't wear a mask
Q.
What -
A.
And their policy was to compensate the
employees ten cents an hour over scale so that they could sort of have some disciplinary power over
their employees
In other words they weren't
ew Su em macke macke aa aA matter of favor to the
CHARLES ROEMER - Cross
35
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24 25
company they were being paid to wear them
Q.
That was at the Patterson plant
.
A.
At the Patterson plant of my own knowledge
that I know
Q.
Was the union you were talking about the
Textile Workers Union
A.
I believe 80
Q.
That's the official union that represented
the workers of Patterson
A.
That is correct
Q.
Did you ever do any legal work for that union
A.
Absolutely not
Q.
When this problem came up through your cousin
Dr. Jacob Roemer explaining it to you you
indicated in your direct examination that they couldn't relieve these injured workers of their job
without the consent of the union
A.
That's right
Q.
And the union you were talking about was not
Union Asbestos and Rubber Company
A. Q A.
No no no But the Asbestos Textile -Labor union
Q. A.
Labor union Labor union yes
CHARLES ROEMER - Cross
36
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24
~
Q.
Did you or Dr. Roemer explain to the labor --
Do you know whether anyone explained to the labor
union the reason that you were suggesting that they
be relieved of their duties
A.
Oh of course of course but they claimed
that that was a fake and a fraud and that -- just an
attempt on the part of Union Asbestos to bust the
union
Q
What did they think was a fake and a fraud
A.
The fact that these five or six people who
happened I suppose to be some big shots in the
union in the plant that they might have been some
delegates or something of that sort
Q.
Did they think that the management had
manufactured this story about these people being
sick
A.
I don't think that
I don't think that
They -- the union thought that this was just a union
busting scheme
Q.
Was the union made aware -- Was the labor
union made aware that these workers had contracted
some lung difficulty by reason of their work
A.
Oh yes they were told that Dr. Roemer had
recommended their dismissal
o~
And the labor union refused to allow that
CHARLES ROEMER - Cross
37
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24
A.
Yeah because they said that this this was
just a sort of an -- I guess conspiracy would be a good word -- a conspiracy on the part of Union
Asbestos to bust the union
Q.
Were those workers involved told that they
had a problem
A.
They certainly were and of course they
immediately filed Workmen's Compensation claims
against the company
Q.
Were they compensated under the laws of New
Jersey at that time
A.
They were
Q.
To your knowledge did other people who
worked at the Patterson plant who did not have a disease at that time were they told that they could
get a disease from working in that plant
A.
I don't know
I really don't know I really
don't know
Q. A.
You don't know one way or the other No I don't know one way or the other I
don't know
I don't know
Q.
But the workers who had already contracted
the disease at the Patterson plant continued to work
there afterwards
n
Wh bannened was this that Roemer when he
CHARLES ROEMER - Cross
38
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24
would make this annual examination or ray
business saw some changes taking place in their lungs would notify the company that so and so looks
as though he's got something
MR WALKER
Excuse me I don't
think Mr. Roemer was done with his answer
MR MODESITT
I'm sorry
THE WITNESS
Well I mean as I
clarified the -- let's see where were we
MR MODESITT
Let me ask the
question
BY MR MODESITT
Q.
At the time Dr. Roemer made these periodic
examinations of the employees in Patterson you just
indicated a moment ago that if he had -- if he found
an abnormality in the lungs he would notify
management of Union Asbestos
A.
Yes that's right
Q.
Did he also tell the employee of the
abnormality
A.
oh of course
Q.
And this was the routine procedure of Union
Asbestos and Rubber
A.
There was no resistance
In other words
pumas would would then file their claim and Mr. Arthur
CHARLES ROEMER - Cross
39
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24
Meade of Newark would handle the matter from that
point on
Q.
So in other words Manville apparently
had a different policy or theory about this
advising the employees
A.
That's right
Q.
And their policy is different from the one
Union Asbestos had
A.
That's right
Q.
In other words from your conversation with
Mr. Brown did I glean from your direct testimony
that they did not tell their employees
A.
That's right
Q.
Whereas Union Asbestos did tell their
employees if they had a problem
A.
That's right And the implication was that
we would adopt their policy to save money
I mean
that's the only thing that I could extract from his
crack about when I said Mr. Brown you mean to
tell me you let these people work until they drop
dead
So he said yes
He says We save a lot
of money that way
Q.
That was one company's position
A.
That's right
ee
mM
position position that your company
CHARLES ROEMER - Cross
40
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
or that Union Asbestos took
A.
No.
We never had that policy and so far as I
know we had no desire to do it
Q.
Did you have any contact with any other Union
Asbestos Company plants
A. Q. A. Q.
None whatsoever
Just the Patterson plant Just the Patterson plant Do you know why the Patterson plant closed
down
A.
The war ended in '45
And the Navy by that
time was a seven ocean Navy
We were cutting back
and I suppose the only customer we had was the
United States Navy
Q.
Do you happen to remember what year the
Patterson plant closed
A.
No but the exact time could be ascertained
by making a search of the -- in the Register of
Deeds office in Patterson where the deed from Union
Asbestos to the new owner was recorded
Q.
Do you remember who that new owner was
A.
I think his name was Jacob Moscow spelled
the same way as the city in Moscow
Whether it was
taken in the corporate name by him or not but the
man that I remember doing business was a man by the
CHARLES ROEMER - Cross
41
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24
name of Jacob Moscow
Q.
What did he use the plant for
A.
I don't know
I think he was a real estate
man
Q.
I think it was just an investment
You indicated that the only other thing that
you participated in regarding the asbestosis problem
was to talk to somebody at Saranac Lake
A.
Yes Dr. Lanza
Q.
Do you have any recollection of what year you
talked to Dr. Lanza in
A.
Well it was shortly after the visit to Union --
to Manville
Q.
My reason for inquiry is do you know that
Dr. Lanza was not employed by the Saranac Lake in
1943.
He didn't work at the Saranac Lake in 1943
A.
Well there is something wrong there because
the reason I remember his name so well is because I
had a neighbor by the name of Lanza so the name was
not strange to me whatsoever
Q.
Do you know that the person who was in charge
of Saranac Lake in 1943 was a person by the name of
Dr. Gardner
A.
Well then it might have been -- I don't know
whether -- My recollection was that it was a man by
oe
eee
E one) Lanza Lanza and if you say Gardner was in
CHARLES ROEMER - Cross
42
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
18 19 20 21 22 23 24
charge at that time then I'll have to say it was
Gardner
I spoke to whoever it was that -- when I
contacted the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company
they referred me to this outfit in Saranac Lake and
they told me that it was the only place in the
United States at least where any studies were being
made -- scientific studies were being made of
asbestosis
Q.
was
Did you know that in 1943 that Saranac Lake
in fact conducting an extensive study of the
effects upon the human person of inhalation of
asbestos dust
A.
Not until -- my first letter was to the
Metropolitan Life Insurance Company
Q.
They directed you to Saranac Lake
A.
To Saranac Lake yes
I knew nothing of it of course
Q. Did you ever talk or know a Dr. Vorwalt also at the Saranac Lake at this time
A. The name doesn't register with me at all
Q. Did you know that there was at the time you
made your inquiry an ongoing study that had been started in 1936 by the people under Dr. Gardner at
the Saranac Lake
CHARLES ROEMER - Cross
43
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24
anything about asbestos except that it was supposed
to be a wonderful fire preventive
As I say I used
I had my whole house pumped full of it
Q.
When you talked to whoever you talked to at
the Saranac Lake did you talk to him in person
A.
On the telephone
Yes
Q
What was the purpose of that
A.
Well I just wanted to know more about
asbestosis and they explained to me what happens
Now I don't know what the present
state of the art is but Dr. Lanza or Dr. Gardner --
I mean the name is immaterial it seems to m~ --
told me that it differed from silicosis
Now the
|
reason I mention that is because the Act making
industrial illnesses not -- I'm not talking about
trauma traumatic situations which are covered by
the original 1911 Workmen's Compensation Act which was adopted when President Wilson was governor of
New Jersey
The amendment took place many years
after and it's called the Silicosis and Asbestosis
Act
Q.
What year was that in
A.
Oh just about the time that these events
were happening with Union Asbestos and Rubber
I
-_
rr
a.
a|
CHARLES ROEMER - Cross
44
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
18 19 20 21 22 23
24
just a few years before that
Q.
In the 1940's
A.
In the 1940's I would say
And Gardner or Lanza this physician
spoke to me and Dr. Roemer had the same views said
that he compared the lungs to -- I mean this was his
explanation of what happens He said assuming that
you have a five pound bag paper bag he says what
is it filled with
I says it's filled with air
He says supposing you put a pound of sugar in the
bag
I says well I should imagine you drive out a
pound
says
of air which is now occupied by sugar
He
but supposing you took some sugar and put it
in your coffee what would happen
And I says it
would dissolve
He says but then you'd have a new
product wouldn't you You'd have sweetened coffee
He says the sugar and the coffee created a new
substance
He says that's the difference between
silicosis and asbestosis
Asbestosis causes a
physical change
In other words one of these
little things that make up this - what are the
spongy parts of the lung called
Q A.
The macrofaches
No
you know the lung is a sort of a sponge
MR WALKER WALKER
Do you mean the bronchi
CHARLES ROEMER - Cross
45
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25
or alveoli THE WITNESS
No you know --
BY MR MODESITT
Q.
The lung parenchyma
These little
tiny
tiny
|
air --
Q.
Little tiny air sacs
A.
Yes
MR WALKER
I think they're called
alveoli
THE WITNESS
I don't know
There is
I don't think that's the correct name for
them
But he says when asbestos enters the
lung he says they're breathed in
He says
it fills up a certain portion of the lung
just like the sugar taking the place of the air that formerly was there in this paper bag
But he says silicosis is the result of coal
mining which disintegrates the lung do you
see
That was the explanation that was given
to me to indicate the difference between
silicosis and asbestosis Whether that's the
present state of the art I don't know
BY MR MODESITT
Q.
With regard to this conversation were you
satisfied that somebody at Saranac Lake was in fact
CHARLES ROEMER - Cross
46
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24
working on the problem
A.
Yes because at that time I think Roemer said
the same thing to me too
I asked him to explain
what the heck is asbestosis
I didn't have the
slightest idea what happens
So he says well he
says fortunately he says most of us he said
don't use most of our lungs all the time
Dr.
Roemer said something to me at the time that shocked
me considerably
He said very often he says in
the hospitals where people are immobilized and
unable to walk and a fire breaks out in the hospital
and they run but they drop dead right after they
run because they have used up every bit of strength
So it is with the lung he said
He said we
fortunately don't need all these little sacs in
order to survive and live
He says every time you
take a deep breath sometimes he says you'll get a
little shock there
He says but actually that's
because your opening up a lot of these little sacs
of which there are already billions that make up the
lung you see
And he says if they leave the -- if
they leave the plant and take outdoor work he says
maybe over a period of years they can expectorate
you know or bring up some of this asbestos and
survive
NOW
<=
CHARLES ROEMER - Cross
47
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
18 19 20 21 22 23 24
Q.
In other words did you take that to mean
that if they left the working environment of the
indoor plant --
A.
As early as possible
Then there was a
chance for survival because then they could over
the years -- not all of it but enough for them to
maintain some stability and some normality
Q.
Is it -
MR WALKER
Off the record
Discussion held off the record from
11:50 a.m. to 11:51 a.m.
BY MR MODESITT
Q.
To the best of your recollection this
conversation you had with the head of Saranac Lake
occurred around probably 1943 late '42 is that
what I understand
A.
I would say that that was substantially
correct
Q.
Again I'm concerned about who you talked to
with in particular
You mentioned on direct
examination it was Dr. Lanza and I understand now think it may not have been Dr. Lanza but is it
you
your testimony whoever was in charge --
A.
Yes
eg a Saranac Saranac Lake in 1942 or
'43
CHARLES ROEMER - Cross
48
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24
A.
Yes
Q.
And that's the person that you talked to
A.
That's right
And there were several phone
calls back and forth because I wanted to be of
service to Union Asbestos and Rubber Company
f
there was a way of ending this problem I thought I
would learn something there but frankly I didn't
because they just backed up Roemer's explanation
that he had given me about this thing
Q.
Again my question if the evidence would
disclose Mr. Roemer that Dr. Gardner was in charge
of the Trudeau Institute of the Saranac Lake
Laboratories then that would be the person you
talked to
A.
That's right
Q.
And not Dr. Lanza
A.
Well as I say I have taken an oath here to
tell the truth and my recollection was that it was a
Dr. Lanza
Q. If I were to tell you that Dr. Lanza was the
medical director of the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company might you have first talked to him and then
he directed you to the Saranac Laboratory
A.
That's right
That is correct
In other
<:
ee
remembered was Lanza because
I
CHARLES ROEMER - Cross
49
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24
say I had a neighbor by that name
And he might
have directed me to you know to the Saranac people
directly
Lanza might have been connected with
Metropolitan Life because I contacted them first
Q.
And does that ring any kind of a bell that
that could very well have been the situation
A.
You're absolutely right
Q.
Did you get the impression when you talked to
the people at Saranac that they were doing the best
they could do in this research activity to determine
the problem involved with asbestos
A.
That's right
Q.
You had mentioned earlier that -- something
about Workmen's Compensation insurance coverage with
Union Asbestos and Rubber Company
Did you have any
personal involvement with seeking or trying to obtain Workmen's Compensation insurance
A.
None whatsoever
Q.
Do you know whether they had any at this time
A.
They couldn't get it they told me
Q.
Who told you that
A.
Bob Cryor unless they were willing to be
self insurors
In other words they had to pay the
judgments and there was a service fee involved
CHARLES ROEMER - Cross
50
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
understand
Q.
A.
I really don't Well let's clarify it then
In other words normally in the
usual case you call up a broker and say look
write a Workmen's Compensation policy for the X
manufacturing company
But in this particular case
no company would take it
No one
There wasn't a
company that would insure us except upon this basis
that we would pay -- they would service all our
cases as if they were insurors but actually they
weren't
We were self insurors
I think that's a
perfectly good legal word
Q.
In other words Union Asbestos used a
separate agency to do their investigation and do all
of the other work that would ordinarily be done by
the insurance company in a Workmen's Compensation
case
A.
That's correct
Q.
And then Union Asbestos actually paid the
money
A.
That's right
Q.
Okay
You don't know whether that was the
en
eo
which which
ly
companies companies operated
do you
CHARLES ROEMER - Cross
51
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24
A.
I don't have the slightest idea about that
Q.
Your cousin Dr. Jacob Roemer continued to
do the periodic chest rays on the Patterson
employees throughout the time Patterson was open
A.
So far as I know he was the only one they
had
Q.
And when he noticed that lung abnormality he
advised the person who had the lung abnormality
A.
That's right and they would then file a
claim
for
--
temporary
I mean
the Act was
brutal
in
way
It was a much more costly thing than even
the old Workmen's Compensation
Q.
It was more liberal towards the employee was
it not
A.
That's right
employee-- Q.
In other words the
that would be
an Occupational Disease Act
A.
That's right
Q.
And it paid more to the employee required
payment of more money to the employee
A.
That's right
That's right
And because the
earlier you reported it see the earlier you'd get
on the pad
Q.
And Union Asbestos and Rubber was not
oe
a,
a ns
CHARLES ROEMER - Cross
52
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24
employees obtained disease
A.
Yes
Q.
Is that correct
A.
That's right
In other words at that point we
would accomplish the most important thing which was
the saving of the man's life and comfort
In other
words he had to get out while there was a still a
chance for him to resume a normal life
Q.
In your opinion Mr. Roemer did the
management of Union Asbestos and Rubber Company know
that without proper work protection their employees
could get disease from working with asbestos during
the 1942 '43 time period
A.
I suppose in a strict sense of the word they
didn't know because here was the manager and his
assistant manager who became manager after Bob left
both died of it And I think they felt that getting
dust in your lungs wasn't going to do you any good
in any way because although asbestos dust
apparently doesn't cause disintegration of the lung
when it gets in there it's there you see
So in
order to keep the dust out of their lungs which was
unavoidable in working in a plant like that they
arta
.2...62.
. Ven
ble meme eelUm eve
That's the only thing that
CHARLES ROEMER - Cross
53
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
18 19 20 21 22 23
24
I would say about involvement or notice of any kind
Q. What about after these -- let's talk about a
year or two after 1944 1945
Were you involved in
any way at that period of time
A.
No.
My involvement ended with Saranac Lake
Q.
That's the only involvement you had
A.
After -- yes
Q. In other words just so I'm clear in my mind
there was just a short period of time when you
became involved in the situation and that's when
your cousin explained it to you and then you made the arrangements to meet with Mr. Brown at
Manville -
A.
I didn't make the arrangements
They were
made by Cryor on an industry basis H
thought that was a better way to do it
Q.
But that one occasion
A.
Yes
Q. And then the only other time was the time you
talked -- went through Metropolitan to get to
Saranac Lake
A.
Q.
A.
Yes
Did you then just drop it
Well
I -- there was nothing more that I
.
.
a en a. anythanythingi anythn ing g anything moremormore e more more
CHARLES ROEMER - Cross
54
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24
and I felt that the plant was being run by very
competent people
And I would say they were
compassionate people and decent people
I have
nothing but the highest regard for Union Asbestos
and Rubber Company management in the period that I
knew them
There was no attempt by them to adopt
the Manville approach
Q.
When you met with Dr. Selikoff was that
after Patterson had been closed down or before
A.
I would say after
Q.
A short time after
A.
No I don't think so
I think -- let's see
the plant closed after the Japanese surrendered
The -- off the record
Discussion held off the record
Whereupon there was a recess in the
proceedings from 12:05 p.m. to 12:10 p.m.
BY MR MODESITT
Q.
Mr. Roemer when you had first met with Dr.
Selikoff what was his purpose in meeting with you
A.
Oh he said that he had made a very thorough
investigation of the Union Asbestos and Rubber
Company
And he says No matter where I turn he
says
I seem to come into involvement with you
e-
8
e
=
a
ee
-,
8s
CHARLES ROEMER - Cross
55
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23
24
I told him essentially what I'm telling you
Q.
Do you remember when this was what year
A.
No I don't
I know that it was after they
had left Patterson
It was when he had rented --
the Mount Sinai Hospital of New York had rented this
space so that he could be more convenient so it would be more convenient for the Pattersonians who
were -- that he wanted to meet
Q.
Do you know whether he met with any other
officials of Union Asbestos during this period of
time
A.
He couldn't have
He
couldn't
have
because
Bob Cryor had returned to Chicago before this And
Ed Shuman was the manager and Ed Shuman was in a bad
way in later years before he died
I saw him for --
quite frequently
Q.
But what my question is You're saying that
you don't think he did because they weren't in Patterson any more or that Bob Cryor was not in
Patterson any more
A.
No.
Q.
Do you imagine that perhaps Dr. Selikoff
talked to him by phone to Chicago
A.
I wouldn't know that
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24
CHARLES ROEMER - Cross
SY
56
worked with or cooperated with Union Asbestos or not
do you
A.
Oh I would say not that wasn't his duty
His work was scientific
It was to gather
statistics and to study asbestosis
In other words he had no interest in --
he wasn't representing any company
He was sent
there by Mount Sinai Hospital
Q.
But you really don't know whether or not he
talked with Union Asbestos people
A.
I would
--
say
Q.
No.
I'm asking whether you know whether he
did or not
A.
No I do not know
No.
Q.
Did you ever read any of the papers or
materials that Dr. Selikoff published as a result of
his work from the Patterson plant
A.
I can only say this that every time he had
to make a speech say before the Chamber of Commerce
in Patterson or any other group he would invariably
invite me as his guest
I'd hear his speeches
Q.
Did you ever read any of his papers
A.
Well except what reports there were in the
newspapers of his speech
CHARLES ROEMER ab Cross
57
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24
~*~ F
A.
I read none of his papers as far as I know
Q.
Were these speeches always about the
Patterson plant itself
A.
That's right
And on one occasion when he --
well made it appear that I had committed some great
sin by bringing the plant here you know to
Patterson I had to rise right at the Chamber of
here Commerce dinner and let him know that
was a
plant that was compassionate and that was desirous
of doing the right thing even if it cost them some
money
I mean was in a very defensive move
against him at that time because I said Doctor I
don't know who said that this company was doing some
terrible things
They were ordered to open this
plant I said
Q.
That's by the U.S. government
A.
By the U.S. government sure
Q.
That was to assist in the war time effort
A.
Absolutely
Nothing else
They never
manufactured any such things before blankets
Q.
Did the government provide the asbestos that
was used in that plant
A.
Yes
Q.
During this period of time that you talked or
with Manville personnel and met and talked
CHARLES ROEMER - Cross
58
with Mr. Cryor and Mr. Shuman of Union Asbestos and Rubber Company did you ever meet and talk with any
people concerned or representing Raybestos
Inc.
A.
Never
Q.
That's all I have
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24
BY MR WALKER
Q.
Mr. Roemer you contacted Metropolitan Life
Insurance Company and someone there you said it may
have been Dr. Lanza directed you to Saranac Lake in
New York is that correct
A.
That's right
Q. That would be a different community from the
one at which the Metropolitan Life Insurance offices
were located is that true
A.
Oh absolutely yes
Q. And the person or persons you talked to at Saranac Lake did have some knowledge on the subject
of asbestos is that correct
A.
That's right
Q.
And in fact engaged in one or more
CHARLES ROEMER - Redirect
59
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24
A.
That's correct
Q.
Part of what prompted you to contact
Metropolitan and then Saranac was that Jacob Roemer
had noticed these changes in the rays of the
Patterson workers and then when you -- you meaning
yourself and Robert Cryor and Mr. Shuman -- went to
New York and talked about these changes to
Manville you learned that it was Manville's
practice not to tell the employee that he had some
health affect as a result of working with asbestos
but rather just let him work until he died is that
correct
A.
That's right
In effect that's what it was because
they'd work as long as they could
Q.
Okay
Until either he became disabled or
died whatever took place first
A.
That's right
Q. And rather than accept the position of Manville you personally wanted to find a different
solution to this health condition brought about by
working around asbestos is that correct
A.
That's right
Se
xa
|
ekhnimamawnmnilia
at
Saranac
CHARLES ROEMER - Redirect
60
10
11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24
Lake tell you was their suggestion or recommendation
as it related to informing employees at an asbestos
plant that they had some --
A.
They were --
Q.
Excuse
Let me finish my question
A.
I'm sorry
Q.
-- as to inform the employees of an asbestos
plant as to whether they had an asbestos -- a
condition caused by asbestos
A.
I would say that I was just up against a
cul there
I got nowheres
All I did -- I
did get an explanation of what asbestosis is and was
which was substantially what Roemer told me
previously
But they weren't helpful to us with our
problem in any way and on the contrary I think
I
just had the general feeling that they didn't want
to talk too much
Q.
You had the feeling that the people at
Saranac didn't went to address your concerns about
whether the employee should be alerted and if he was
alerted what response should be made by the company
A.
Yes
I had the general feeling when I went
--
up there that they were being subsidized probably
maybe by Manville or something of that sort
CHARLES ROEMER - Redirect
61
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24
discuss the situation
I mean that was really a
subjective thing
Q.
Saranac discussed with you the physiological
or medical aspects of asbestos disease but refused
to discuss with you the ethical or legal
implications that arose once an employee had
asbestos disease is that correct
A.
Yes that's right
Then I had hit a stone
wall again
Q.
You were asked whether the United States
government provided the asbestos fiber used at the
Patterson plant
Do you know from some knowledge
of your own that that fiber was provided by the
government or is that an assumption that you made
A.
No it was a fact which I was told about by
Cryor and Shuman
I mean because there were
several situations there
There were two situations
that caused me to get information about that
On one or more occasions I was told
by Cryor and Shuman that the ship bringing a
shipment of the asbestos from Africa had been torpedoed and the other was a railroad strike that
occurred so that the railroad siding was no longer
available to them
They had to truck the stuff from
oe
-_
.
ea . &
- _ an om ome
occasion of
CHARLES ROEMER - Redirect
62
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24
course they were dealing -- I would be told that a shipload of this asbestos had come from Africa and
they wanted to get it to the plant
Q.
But I don't understand from your answer how
that information led you to the conclusion that the
government was providing -- in other words the
United States government was providing it
A.
Oh well Bob Cryor and Ed Shuman and I
proceeded upon that -- with that understanding
Q.
So these were just occasions when Cryor and
Shuman told you that
the asbestos
the
government was
supplying
*
A.
Yes and on other occasions too
I mean I
asked him why he didn't use American asbestos
And
he said that they're using this asbestos which is
supplied by the government because the American and
Canadian asbestos is not adequate for their needs
Q.
Did you have the impression that Union
Asbestos and Rubber Company was paying the United
States government a price for the asbestos or
perhaps that it was some other arrangement under
which the asbestos fiber was being supplied to the
Union Asbestos and Rubber Company and then Union
Asbestos and Rubber Company was being paid some sum
CHARLES ROEMER - Redirect
63
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24
perhaps some third alternative that I didn't
describe
A.
My understanding was that the raw materials
were supplied by the government and they were merely
manufacturing these blankets which were used
subsequently on vessels and used in the war by the
American Navy
Mostly for these torpedo boats and
other tormentors in the midst of a naval battle
Q.
Do you know the names of any other companies
that may have been supplying asbestos materials to
the Patterson plant
A.
I know of no other outfit that supplied the
asbestos
Q.
You said that you knew that Bob Cryor
returned to Chicago before the Patterson plant
closed is that correct
A.
That's right
Q. It was somewhat of a promotion for him is
that true
A.
I presume because -- either that or he might
have been anticipating -- or I think his family came
from Chicago originally
In other words he was
like -- I always thought of him as a Chicago boy
whereas Shuman although he might have probably come
CHARLES ROEMER - Redirect
64
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
18 19 20
21
22 23 24
considered him a New Yorker Q. I think the sources will confirm that in
fact Cryor did return to Chicago and his responsibilities were increased which was we traditionally call a promotion
A.
Yes
Q.
In any event after Cryor left the Patterson
area then Shuman assumed top responsibility at the
Patterson plant
A.
That's right
Q.
And is it your recollection that Mr. Shuman
continued to live in the Patterson area even after
the Union Asbestos and Rubber Company plant closed
A.
Well he had a home in Teaneck New Jersey
which is not too far from Patterson
Q.
But he continued to live here in your
community
after
the
plant
closed
.
A.
That's right
Q. You saw him from time to time and saw his
health deteriorate
A.
Yes terribly
Q. Was there any social or business gathering at
which you normally saw him you know like the
meeting of such and such group or anything or were
CHARLES ROEMER - Redirect
65
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24
A.
You mean -- when was this after the plant
closed
Q.
Yes
A.
Oh no no
It was personal all right
I
mean he -- I -- it was not a chance meeting at all
because he was in a bad way
So bad in fact that
I believe his family broke up and he was living
alone I think when he died
His wife I think
and he separated
And he would come to me -- I
remember on one occasion to see if if I could get
him into the Patterson Hospital you know
And I
was appointed the executor of his will
Q.
Did you probate his Estate
A.
No I did not because at that time he was
living in New York
And the -- I acted as Executor
but he had a relative of his who was an attorney in
New York handle it
I mean he actually handled the
legal mechanics
Q. Did Mr. Shuman receive any financial benefits from Union Asbestos and Rubber Company by way of
Occupational Disease or Workmen's Compensation Act
payments
A.
I haven't the slightest idea about that
I
assume that he was
CHARLES ROEMER - Redirect
66
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
18 19 20
21 22 23 24
actually in your work as Executor having seen documents that showed that he received such payments
did you have such firsthand knowledge
A.
I have no recollection about that at all
Q. What about his dependents after his death do
you know if they received any payments from Union
Asbestos and Rubber Company
A.
I have no knowledge of that because I did not
know his wife at all
Q.
Did you ever meet a man so far as you
remember now by the name of Tom Callahan who worked
who was associated with the Patterson plant
A.
I have no knowledge of Tom Callahan no
Q.
The speeches that Dr. Selikoff made at the
Patterson Chamber of commerce and other places these speeches would have been to what we would call
a lay audience as opposed to an audience of a particular profession such as all doctors or all lawyers or something of that nature
A.
It was a lay audience
Q And in his speeches did Dr. Selikoff ever discuss his having talked about the asbestos disease
at Patterson with any Union Asbestos and Rubber
Company employees
CHARLES ROEMER - Redirect
67
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24
Q.
Did he talk -- in his speeches did he say
and I have talked to management of Union Asbestos
and their response has been such and such
A.
Never
Q.
You believe that some of these speeches were
reported in the press within the Patterson area
A.
Yes they were reported the following day
Q.
Who left the Colt Building first yourself or
the Mount Sinai group
A.
The Mount Sinai group
Q.
How many years did they have an office there
A.
I would say probably ten years
Q.
Were people examined there in addition to
records being kept there
A.
That's right
He had a secretary there all
the time
And -- now just what his professional
involvement was with these people I don't know
Q.
Once you've said that Selikoff would send
people to talk with you
Were these -- Did he ever
send any Patterson workers to talk with you or were these people different from Patterson workers
A.
Well they weren't Patterson workers because
if they were they would have been handled by Arthur
Meade but they were relatives who became involved
CHARLES ROEMER - Redirect
68
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23
that sort
Q.
When Selikoff sent people to you would this
be with the idea that you -- that Selikoff suggested
that they go see you in order to obtain legal
services or in order to talk with someone who had
some information about the history of Union Asbestos
A.
My recollection was that it wasn't the
employees or even their relatives that were sent
They were mostly -- you know in every community
especially one as old as Patterson there are all
kinds of fellows who claim that they are great
historians you know
Instead of his giving them
the story about the Union Asbestos and Rubber
Company in Patterson he would send them to me to
unravel -- to give them that background you know
Q.
He let you commit your time to telling these
historical facts rather than committing his own time
to that
A.
That's right
Q.
As I understand it you never personally
represented employees of the Patterson plant in any
asbestos disease litigation nor did you represent
the plant itself in any asbestos disease litigation
ya
No. never
Although as I say I knew Arthur
CHARLES ROEMER - Redirect
69
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
18 19 20 21 22 23 24
never represented the company
I never did any
Workmen's Compensation work
Q.
Did you know the Gellman firm or any of the
lawyers who represented some of the interests --
A.
I know Carl Gellman and his brother and his
son -- Carl's son John was up in Wayne New Jersey
In fact John Gellman sat next to me at the Chamber
of Commerce dinner
Q.
When you responded to Selikoff's speech
A.
Yes yes
Q.
Do you know about what year that would have
been A.
I would say probably -- maybe 1970 or
thereabouts
Q.
That's all the questions I have
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR MODESITT
Q.
I just have a very few questions
When you were looking into this
problem in late 1942 early 1943 did you have an
occasion to read the public health report published
by Dr. Lanza in January of 1935 about cautions in
cu
plant
environment wherein asbestos was used
CHARLES ROEMER - Recross
70
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
18 19 20 21 22 23 24
A.
I might have but I have no recollection of
it
Q.
How many actual conversations did you have
with whomever you spoke with at the Saranac
Laboratories
A. Q.
I would say two or three How many minutes would you manage -- how many
minutes would you think you talked
A.
Well I would say maybe five or six minutes
Q.
Total
A.
No I mean on each occasion
Q.
So would your best estimate be that you
talked a total of somewhere between ten minutes and
|
18 minutes
A.
That's right plus any correspondence that I
might have received which I no longer have
Q.
Do you remember specifically whether you
actually received any correspondence
A.
No I do not
Q.
Did you ask the people at Saranac whether or
not employees should be told of the problem
A.
No.
Q.
I assume the reason you didn't ask that is
because the company that you were inquiring for or
rr
ia
ee
thatthatcorrect correct corect correct ?
CHARLES ROEMER > Recross
71
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24
A.
Well it might have been
It might have
It's -- I know that I have no recollection of having
discussed that particular thing
MR MODESITT
Read the response back
Whereupon the Court Reporter read
back the answer
BY MR MODESITT
Q.
In other words Mr. Roemer you didn't ask or
inquire of Saranac what you should be telling the
people at the plant and they didn't tell anything
about it
A.
Yes
I'm telling you I was left in left
field
I was -- I just finally gave up more than
anything else
I mean I just felt that nobody
really wanted to talk to me
Q.
But my question was
You didn't ask them
about what to tell the people at the plant
A.
No I just wanted information about
asbestosis
Q.
And they gave you that information
A.
Yes
Q.
All right
So from that standpoint your inquiry
was satisfied
CHARLES ROEMER - Recross
72
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24
because Roemer told me the same thing
Q. A. <
Okay
And -
What I'm seeking --
MR WALKER
Hold it just a minute
If you had more answer Mr. Roemer
go ahead MR MODESITT
I think he's answered
the question but --
MR WALKER
Did you have more answer
you wanted to give or was that the end of
your answer THE WITNESS
Well I think I
answered it previously
In other words when
I -- I must have done that because when I
entered that area then Saranac Lake changed
its responses and its attitude
In other
words I felt I was wasting my time with them
just as I cut the conference with Vandiver
Brown short
In other words I -- there was
no point in continuing
BY MR MODESITT
Q.
Well okay
That's what you felt then
Yes
CHARLES ROEMER - Recross
73
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24
now that you did not inquire as to whether the
employees at the plant ought to be told of a health
|
hazard isn't that correct
A.
Well I have no recollection of that except
that I remember the termination more than anything
else
And the termination of Saranac Lake
conferences was caused by the fact that when I
attempted to get help in areas which had nothing to
do with
a
--
what
shall
we
call
it
a
--
Q.
Physiological explanation
A.
Physiological explanation they suddenly
became tongue tied or something
I don't know
I
just -- you know you just felt that you couldn't
move any further
Q.
So what is it that you really wanted to know
A.
Well I wanted to know primarily what we
might do
I explained our problem that we hit this
difficulty with the union and if they could give u
some suggestions as to how to handle that thing now In other words the problem -- it was
the same problem that caused me to initiate the
conference with Vandiver Brown
Q. Did that alter anything with regard to Union
Asbestos
CHARLES ROEMER - Recross
74
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24
Q.
In other words Union Asbestos --
A.
Just --
Q.
-- continued to --
A.
To do what it was formerly doing
Q.
And what it was formerly doing was taking
chest rays and telling the employees if they had a
bad chest ray
A.
That's right
Q.
Did you learn at any point during this period
of time that asbestos plants were utilizing and
developing engineering systems to exhaust away from
the worker the asbestos dust
A.
No.
I wasn't so much interested -- see I'm
not a doctor I'm a lawyer and I wasn't interested
in the medical phases so much as I was in trying to
extricate the company from this position they were
in you see
I mean we had hit a stone wall with
Manville And I thought possibly they might -because it was the only place in the United States
I was told -- now I didn't make a personal investigation but I was informed by the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company that the Lake Saranac thing was the only one - the reason I
CHARLES ROEMER - Recross
75
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24
you was because I know there is lot of T.B.
know
in the United States and I know that there are
thousands of TB hospitals in hundreds of places that is that have finally I think conquered TB So I thought there was some situation like that where I could get some help somewheres but I was told that the only place in the whole United States
of America that was studying the asbestosis problem
was Lake Saranac
Q.
I'm confused about what it is you felt that
Saranac didn't disclose to you
You have told me
that you inquired about asbestosis and they
explained that to you which was consistent with what
your cousin had explained to you
What else did you
expect
A.
Saranac
Well I
to tell you as a research facility
had told them about why I was calling
them
I mean I had to have some reason
I wasn't --
I didn't tell them that I was going to write a book
or an article about asbestosis
I told them that I
was speaking on behalf of Union Asbestos and Rubber
Company and that they had run into the particular problem if they could give me some advice about how
to deal with it
Q.
How to cure the medical problem
problem _ ce a How m deal with the
from a
CHARLES ROEMER - Recross
76
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24
25
lawyer's point of view In other words our problem was to
overcome the union resistance and I figured that
that sort of situation might have come into their
discussions or their surveys or what have you
Q.
Did you have any reason to believe that
Saranac was involved with the Textile Union workers
A.
oh no not at all
Q.
Did you have any reason to believe that
Saranac Laboratory would be in a position to make <--
to give advice about management and union
difficulties
A.
I thought because it was the nearest thing to
an outfit that -- where there was no conflict of
interest -- at least I thought there was no conflict
of interest there -- that having explained to them
how and why I came to them at all do you see
I
didn't want them to think that I was coming there to
compete with them scientifically or a million and
one other reasons for knowing them
I told them why
I'm there
And I gave them the history -- our
history of -- in this matter
Q.
Did it occur to you that maybe Saranac
Laboratories was not completed with its research
and
didn't have the final answer
CHARLES ROEMER - Recross
77
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
18 19 20
21 22
23 24
A.
They didn't say that
They didn't say that
I'm telling you they left me out in left field when
I invaded that area
You see
In other words they knew why I was
at Lake Saranac
I wasn't there to get a cure for
asbestosis
They knew that
Q.
I'm still not sure what area and what you
really wanted them to do for you
A.
I thought that they might as a result of
disinterested being the only scientific and
outfit
in the country might have some suggestion as to
procedure by us
Q.
Procedure for what
I don't know what
procedure you were looking for
A.
How are these things handled by the other
people that they are investigating
In other words why did I go to
Manville
I didn't go there to have a lunch
I went there to find out how they handled the legal
situation when a -- when the doctor reported to them
that Mr. X had an involvement of asbestosis Q. And you did not receive -- you did not find
out from Saranac how other companies handled the
problem
CHARLES ROEMER - Recross
78
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24
Q.
And that's what -- when you refer to the fact
that you didn't feel fulfilled in your inquiry
that's what you're talking about
A.
That's right
Q.
And the only textile company or the only
asbestos company you sought advice from was
Manville
A.
That's right
Q.
You did not seek advice from any other
company
A.
No no no
I did not
Q. You don't know how any other company handled
that same problem
A.
I haven't the slightest notion
Q.
That's all I have
MR WALKER
That's all I have
Witness excused Deposition concluded at 12:50 p.m.
80
I have read the foregoing deposition and the answers given by me are true and correct to the best of my knowledge
information and belief
CHARLES H. ROEMER
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
18
19 20 21 22 23 24
Sworn to and before me a
subscribed Notary Public
this
day of
NOTARY PUBLIC
1983