Document 10r1aZqd8j2Oy4J6Nj8aJKV2Z
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IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OI: 11II ST ATE OF CALIFORNIA (1)
IN AND FOR THE COUNIY Ol I OS ANGELES
(2)
--OOO--
(3)
GLADE COOKUS,
(4)
Plaintiff,
(5)
^/s. No. BC360406
(6)
ADVOCATE MINES, IIMITED, ot al.
(7)
Defendants.
______ /
(8) (9)
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ID
12)
DEPOSITION OF DARYL W. WILKINSON
13)
14)
15)
16)
17)
Taken before CATHERINE M. MEYER
18)
CSR No. 11596
19)
August 25, 2007
|(20)
PLAINTIFF'S
21) 22)
EXHIBIT NO----------------
23)
1PTR- yyvv*
24) 25)
1)1 POSH ION Ol DARYI W. WILKINSON
3
HI II Kl Ml MHI Kl D, that piusuunt lo Notlca, and on Ihu 2!)tli day ol August 200/, coinrnonclnc] ol Ihu hour ol 10:30 ii.in., ol tlio Courtyard by Munioll, 37f>? Wtv-l March 11mo, Stockton, Calilomiu, bofoio mo, CA IIII RINl M Ml Yl R, n Cartiliod Shorthartd Roportor, |Hirsonally appetirod DARYI W. WILKINSON, produced ns n witness In said action, and being by me first duly sworn, was thereupon examined as a witness in said cause.
- oQo--
AN 11IONY VIEIRA and MARK SWANSC )N, I>nul, Itanley K I iarley, 1608 Fourth Street, Suite 300, Beikoley, California 94710, appeared on behalf ol the Plaintiff.
DOUGLAS WAH, Foley & Mansfield, 1111 Broadway, 10th Floor, Oakland, California 94607, appeared on behalf of the Defendant Calaveras Asbestos, Limited.
ALSO PRESENT: Daniel W. McGrath, Esq.; Barbara Lee.
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INDEX PAGE
EXAMINATION BY MR. WAH EXAMINATION BY MR. VIEIRA
4, 112 49, 123
EXHIBITS
DEFENDANTS'
PAGE
1 Color photocopy of photograph
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2 Color photocopy of photograph
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3 Color photocopy of photograph
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4 Color photocopy of photograph
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5 Color photocopy of photograph
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6 Color photocopy of photograph
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7 Color photocopy of photograph
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8 Color photocopy of photograph
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9 Witness' declaration
128
PLAINTIFF'S 1 Witness' declaration 2 Packet of documents
81 81
(Exhibits retained by counsel.)
(1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) 10)
11) 12) 13) 14) 15) 16) 17) 18) 19) 20) 21)' 22) 23) 24) 25)
(Defendants' Exhibit Nos. 1 through 8 premarked for Identification.)
DARYL W. WILKINSON, sworn as a witness, testified as follows: EXAMINATION BY MR. WAH: Q. We're here pursuant to the trial of Glade Cookus vs. Calaveras Asbestos. 1 guess the actual title is Glade Cookus vs. Advocate Mines, et al. And Mr. Wilkinson, we're taking your trial testimony preserving your testimony for trial. Do you understand that? A Yes. Q. You're under oath, and you're under oath as if you were in a court of law. And this transcript will be read to a jury probably this forthcoming week. Do you understand that? A. Yes. Q. A couple of pieces of advice or instruction really. One, make all of your answers audible. You can't just nod your head or go "uh-huh." It has to be a "yes" or "no" answer and an explanation or whatever. Do you understand that? A. Yes. Q. Both Mr. Vieira and 1 will be asking you
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D. Wilkinson 8-25-07
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questions, ff you don't understand a question that i
( s)
ask you or you don't understand a question that
(>')
Mr. Vieira asks you, then let us know, and we'll try to ( 3)
rephrase it or reword it so that it's clear Do you
(4)
understand that?
()
A. Yes.
(<>)
Q. And then pursuant to tire judge's order, try to ( t)
answer the question that's been asked. Okay?
(u)
A. Okay.
n>:
Q. Are you ready to take a deposition or givr ;on lie no:
testimony here today?
(i);
A. Yes.
Q. Would you state your name for the record,
please, Mr. Wilkinson, your full name.
CM)
A. Daryl Wesley Wilkinson.
( 3 5)
Q. Could you spell it?
(:i o)
A. D-a-r-y-l, W-e-s-l-e-y, W-i-l -k-i-n-s on.
(r/)
Q. Where do you live, Mr. Wilkinson?
( j e)
A. In Stockton, California. Q. And how long have you lived there?
(i y) (20)
A. 77 years. Q. And that's how old you are, 77?
(21 ) (22)
A. Yes.
.
(23)
Q. Would you tell us briefly your work history
(24)
from the time you graduated high school?
(23)
6
Q. I'm souy. What was yum job lillu when you started at Johns Manvillo?
A. I was a pipe machine ciew lender. Q. I low long did you remain a pipe machine crew leader? A. Approximately live; your, Q. What war; your next job title at Johns Munvillo? A. Shift supeivisoi. G. What were (jenoinliy, you don't have to bo real .specific, but as a shill supervisor, what was your responsibilities? What were your responsibility'sV A. On my shift, I had responsibility lor lout pipe machines that produced an asbestos cement pipe brand name Iransite, for lire production ot those machines and (he people that worked on Hie machines. Q. What was your next job title at Johns-Manville? A. I was - became general supervisor ot the forming department. Q. What year was that roughly, Mr . Wilkinson? A. '63. Q. And how long and wha! was the job title again, sir? A. General supervisor ot the forming department, Q. And by "forming department," you mean the department where the pipe was actually made, a
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A. I attended College of Pacific, i attended
(1)
St. Mary's College. Got drafted into the U.S. Army
(2)
1950. Spent four years in the Army. After the Army, I
(3)
went back to College of Pacific 1955. Did not complete
(4)
my degree at that time. Went to work for Johns-Manville ' (5)
Corporation in 1957. Completed work with Johns-Manville (6)
19 -- January 1982. Worked for Formosa Plastics who
O)
purchased the Johns-Manville pipe plant in Stockton,
(8)
California for five additional years at the same job.
(9)
Left them in 1987 when they shut the plant down. Worked GO)
two years then for Quaker Oats. Left Quaker Oats
(11)
1959 - I mean, no, 1989. Went to work for Chevron
(12)
Bakersfield, California. Operated two plastic pipe
(13)
plants for three years. Returned to Stockton at the end
(14)
of the three-year period of Chevron. Worked for
(15)
Tri-Valley Growers. Ran a cannery and distribution
(16)
center in Modesto for Tri-Valley Growers for ten years.
(17)
Retired from them in 2001. And I've been retired ever
(18)
since.
(19)
Q. I want to focus on the years you were at
(20)
Johns-Manville. All right, Mr. Wilkinson?
(21)
A. Yes.
(22)
Q. You said you started at Johns-Manville in 1959;
(23)
is that correct?
(24)
A. No. '57.
(25)
production facility, coned? A. Yes. Q. How long did you remain the general supervisor? A. Approximately two years. Q. Then what was your next job title? A. I became chief scheduler for the plant. Q. And ! show that being or I'm calculating that
being you started that around 1965 or '66. A. Yeah, around '65, yeah. Q. And what does a scheduler do? A. He lays out all the production that's going to
be formed and finished in the plant and follows that schedule.
Q. And that's the scheduling for the transite pipe manufacture, correct?
A. Yes. Q. How long were you the scheduler? A. I was chief scheduler for about a year and a half. Q. And then what job did you undertake? A. I became department head for planning, scheduling, shipping for the plant. Q. Would that have been sometime around 1970, 71? A. No. In the late'60s. Q. How long did you remain in that position as a
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D. Wilkinson 8-25-07
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department head?
A. Approximately anothei two years,
(3)
Q. Then what job did you undertake?
(Q
A. I became the plant production oupoiiniendcnt
(-1)
Q. And what did your job entail as Ilie plan!
production superintendent?
A. I had responsibility toi all pj eduction in the
(7)
plant and all hourly employees in the plant.
Of)
Q. How long were you the plant super plant
( 5)
production superintendent?
(10)
A. Until 1981.
(n5
Q. What job did you assume in 1931?
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A. Plant manager.
( 1.3)
Q. All of these jobs were at Ihe Johns-Manville
( J. '1 )
Stockton plant, correct?
( 1 5)
A. Yes.
( 1 G)
Q. And you never worked at any ot the other planjts ( X 7 )
that Johns-Manville had lor the manulacture ot AC or Ihl)
transit pipe, correct?
(:i ?)
A. I had temporary jobs at some plants. I was
(20)
assigned to Dennison, Texas, to Toronto, Canada, and (21)
then I worked in the mine in Asbestos, Quebec. Andj (22)
those were stints of anything from three to six months- (23) Q. Most of your - most of your career was spent (29)
in Stockton?
(25)
Q. I m you know il was Mr. Kalen in I ho piodudiun department al I ong Beach, do you know?
A. No, ho Wasnl Q. Whal department was he in? A. Mu headed up iududiial enqiiumtinq and quality contiol. Q. I here weie i.epaiale department:; over production liom piodudiun? A. Y( Q. We've had testimony from Mi. Kalen dial (hen.were some maiking:; on ihe pipe:-; de/idled on the pipe. Do yon local! that not his testimony. But do you lecall Jo)in:; Manville stenciling certain inloimalion on it:; pipe? A. Ye:;. Q. l et me check something hero. Would the date of manutnetnre be stenciled on the pipe*? A. Ye:;. Q. Would the shift that made it, be it I Tie morning shift, aitemoon shill, swing shift, would that also be on the pipe? A. Yeah, Ihe shill and the shill supervisor. Q. 1 was going to ask you that. Would the ioieman or supervisor's initials lie on Ihe pipe? A. Yes.
10 12
(1 ) (2) (3) (h) (5) {6) (7 ) (8) (9) (10) (13) (12) (13) (14) (15) (16) (17) (18) (19) (20) (21) (22) (23) ,24} (25)
A. Yes.
(1)
Q. Andevery time you changed jobs it was to
(2)
change a position at the Stockton plant, correct?
(3)
A. Yes.
(4)
Q.Mr. Wilkinson, if I had a section of pipe made
(5)
today, if I had a piece of pipe made by the
(6)
Johns-Manville Stockton facility, let's say, made in
(?)
1978 and I wanted to find out what asbestos fiber or
(8)
whose asbestos Tiber was in that pipe, how would 1 do
(9)
that?
(10)
A. If you had access to that pipe, you would-
(11)
you would look at the stencil on the pipe and note the (12)
blend number and the date and shift the pipe was mac(e (13)
And you'd go back to the records of the plant that
(14)
indicate what fibers constituted the blend, and that
(15)
would give you the different fibers that were used in
(16)
the blend.
U7)
Q. We've had some testimony in the past I think byj (18)
Mr. Kalen (phonetic). You know Harold Kalen?
(19}
A. Yes, I do.
(20)
Q. And how do you know Harold Kalen?
(21)
A. He was an industrial engineering supervisor at (22)
the Long Beach plant, and also later on he was the
(23)
quality control supervisor. It was an additional job to (24}
the industrial engineering.
(25)
Q. The blend number would also be on the pipe? A. Yes. Q. What about the blend percent; would that also be on the pipe? A. Yes. Q. Would you also identify where the pipe was made, let's say, Johns-Manville Stockton or Johns-Manville Long Beach or Dennison or wherever? A. Yeah. Each plant had its own mark. Q. And last, would you also list the type of pipe, be it 150-pound pressure pipe, 200-pound pressure pipe, a conduit, whatever? Would you list all that? A Yes. They would tell you the size and class and type of pipe. Q. If I wanted to see what type of pipe or what pipe was made every day, what record would I look at at Johns-Manville to find out that information? A You would have to go to the formed production records. Q. Now-
MR. VIEIRA: I'm sorry. That was the "formed"? MR. WAH: Formed, f-o-r-m. MR. VIEIRA: Formed production. THE WITNESS: Formed production, yes. MR. WAH: Well, let me go through it
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D. Wilkinson 8-25-07
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MR. VIEIRA: Yeah.
{i)
BY MR. WAH:
(x)
Q. The actual liile of Ihe docurnonl is Ihe formed
(M
f-o-r-m e d, produelion lecokE.; n, Ihal coned?
(1)
A. Yes. I hat would indieaio Ihe loiming
department production lecoirts.
MM
Q. In other words, when you say Ihe woid "loim,"
( /)
you're not looking al - you'ie not using il, "formed,"
CM
like we fill oul an income lax form? You're saying
(?)
that's the actual form?
(i o)
A. The forming departmenl.
cn)
Q. And the forming departmenl is what actually
( 12)
makes Ihe pipe, coned?
( I J)
A. Yeah. In the language of Ihe business, Ihal
( J. 4 )
would be the wet end.
Q. The wet end, right. Okay.
( i 6)
MR. VIEIRA: What was that again?
(37)
MR. WAH: The wet end.
COM
MR. VIEIRA: Go ahead.
{j. 9 )
THE WITNESS: The forming department is always (20)
indicated as the wet end and the finishing department is (2 1 )
the dry end.
(22)
MR. VIEIRA: I think I understand.
(23)
THE WITNESS: In our nomenclature.
(24)
MR. WAH: We're going to get to that in just a I (25)
wore good, you would loooid Ihe Tn:l Ihal Ihoie weir? \)i pipes oul Ihem and not 1(10, is that con or,17
A, Yos Q, And you would record Ihe lypc o| pipe? A. Yos. Q. Would you record where you pul Ilie pipe in (he yard? A. No. Q. Eiboi suppliers, I want to talk aboul that lor a minule. No you remember Ilie names el ihe- liber suppliers a! Johns Manville Sfockfon? A. We had various supplin'.. Jeffrey being (lie Johns Manville supplier, Jollrey Mines. Advocate Irher liom Ihe Advocate Mines, Oassiar fiber, Cape blue fiber. Q. Thai was a cmddolilo fiber ; is Ihal coned? A. Cape blue, yes, from South Alrica, We did have some amosilo from Ihe U.S. government. Q. I he amosiie being Ihe brown-type fiber, beige-type fiber? A. If was a veiy long, low qualify fiber lha! was introduced because of its low price. Anri it was government surplus fiber, and ihey wisher) to sell il. And we allempled to run il in our process, and if did not work. Q. It didn't. What other liber suppliers?
14 16
second.
(1)
BY MR. WAH:
(2)
Q. The wet end is where the pipe comes off of the
(3)
mandrel moist or wet, correct?
(4)
A. Yeah, it still is.
(5)
Q. It hasn't dried yet?
(6)
A. No. it's - yeah.
(7 )
Q. And that's why they call it the wet end?
(8)
A. Yes. Q. That's ail I wanted to -- okay.
(9) | (10)
You talked about the dry end or a finished
(.11)
production record.
(12)
A. Yes.
(13}
Q. What's the finished production record?
(14)
A. Pipe that is actually machined, tested,
(15)
unitized and taken out to the shipping department and is (16)
available for sale.
(17)
Q. So would that record, the finished production
(18)
record, provide all of the information that the form
(19)
department production record provides?
(20)
A. No.
(21)
Q. What information would be on the finish
(22)
department production records?
(23)
A. Size and class of pipe and number of pipes.
(24)
Q. So if you made, let's say, 100 pipes and 97
(25)
A. At Stockton? Q. Yea!), at Stocktonagain. A. Oh, we had Calaveras fiber from Copperopolis. Q. Any others that you can fhink of offhand as we sit here right now? A. No. Q. Let's go over some of this. At Stockton you trad four machines, right? A. Yes. Q. And you also ran 24 hours a day, correct? A. Yes. Q. Can you give us your best estimate of how much asbestos fiber would be used at Stockton, let's say, in a shift? A In a shift? Q. Yeah, just a shift. A Well, let's use number three machine as an example. They would put out approximately 125 batches of material. And in a batch there was 300 pounds of fiber if you were using a 20 percent blend. Q. You're going to make me do math. So in a shift they would put out 125 batches? A Batches of material. Q. Times 300 pounds? A Yeah. Included in that batch would be - if it
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D. Wilkinson 8-25-07
17 !o 30)
37 1 Io
( ] ) was a 20 percent balds, you'd use 300 pounds o! liber in ( i )
{ 3 ) each batch.
(3)
(3)
Q. I yet that as 37,300 pounds. Does that sound
( i)
( 4 ) about right tor a shift?
(4 )
(:>) A. If that's what the mall) says, yeah.
()
(ci)
Q. I'rn multiplying 300 limes 133, the 300 pounds
( n)
(7) by 125 batches.
( /)
( o) A. Uh-huh.
(8)
( 0) Q. That you'd use in an eight-hour shift on one
( 9)
(I o) machine?
(10)
(1 .! )
A. On number three machine, yeah.
111)
(:i 2 )
Q. Have you ever been fo the Jellrey mine?
() 2 )
(1.3)
A. Yes.
(.11)
(] 4 )
Q. That's the biggest open- pit mine in I he world,
(14)
(l ) correct?
(13)
(:i. 6)
A. Yeah. That's a mile and a quader across.
( 1 <>)
(IV)
Q. Have you ever been up to the Calaveras mine ii i (17)
(IB) Copperopolis?
( l.B)
(in)
A. Yes.
0 9)
(20)
Q. Can you compare the size of Hie mine al
(2 0)
(21) Copperopolis to the size of the Jeffrey mine?
(2 1 )
(22)
A. As a comparison?
{ 22 )
(23)
Q. Yeah.
(2 3 )
(2 4)
A. Copperopolis would be one small corner in the (24)
(2 3) Jeffrey mine.
(25)
. 10
dividon" i: ,j::. il lokilus lo John:; Munvillo meun-.V A; Wdi, in John:--Munvilk? piimniily mw m.jlcii.il
ih.il Ihuy used in runny ol Ihoir and in nlmud all o! (huti puiduck.: wav. aslH'dov.. And Urn blxv division was Ihe lad won! so lo -peak in our company. Day foi example, Hie Dlocklon pkinl, il we chose lo use a lol ol < mcsiai lil.iei because il was veiy high quality, il also was a higher cod, Jolltey Mine, if limy objoded, I hey would have Iho last woid. The lil.nx division runs Johns Manvillo, and what Ihey say always goes, and Jollmy fells uv. what wo'io going lo lake. II Ihey inn inlo a vein ol liber in thoii mine (hat's low qualily, they've got lo gel lid ol il. And il Ihey conn; up with Iwonly lailnais of flagged linished liber, low quality, il':; going lo go lo the plants regaidloss ol what tho plonk/ wishes are. And you would euf back I he Cassini and you on! bock I he Advocate, whatever, and you would use tire Jeffrey. And we would have lo use the lounuia that would work possibly with our product, But somehow or another we would have to use that fiber because the libei division runs the company.
O. Did the Hirer division or people in Ihe fiber division at Johns-Manville, did Ihey, I don't know, promote or encourage tire use of Ihe Jellrey liber over everything else?
20
(] ) Q. Do you know how big the Jeffrey mine is in
(2)diameter across?
(3) A. ft's a mile and a quarter across.
(4) Q. it's circular more or less?
(5) A. Yes.
(6) Q. It kind of goes - right.
(7 ) DidJohns-Manville, the fiber division, they
(8 ) were responsible for the sale of fiber to the various
(9) plants, correct?
(10)
A. Say that question again.
(11)
Q. Strike that.
(12)
Who was in charge of the fibers that went to
(13) the various plants?
(14)
MR. VIEIRA: Objection. Vague.
(15) BY MR. WAH:
(16)
Q. If you know.
(17)
A. Who was in charge?
(18)
MR. WAH: Strike that.
(19)
MR. VIEIRA: See, he even agreed with my
(20) objection.
(21) BY MR. WAH:
(22)
Q. Are you familiar with the term "fiber division"
'23) for Johns-Manvilie?
,24 )
A. We had a fiber division in our company, yeah.
(25)_______Q. And could you tell us what the term "fiber
CD A. Absolutely.
(2) MR. VIEIRA: Objection. Vaguo as lo time.
(3) It's also vague as lo what particular type of plant or
{4 ) pipe we're talking about.
(5) BY MR. WAH:
(6) Q. In the Johns-Manville Stockton plant, do you
(7 ) recall the liber division encouraging those of you who
(8) were working at Johns-Manville during the years you were
T9) there, encouraging you and requesting that you use
(10) Jeffrey fiber over all of the other suppliers?
(11)
MR. VIEIRA: Same objection including
(12) overbroad.
(13) BY MR. WAH:
(14)
Q. You can answer.
(15)
A. Yes.
(16)
Q. You talked about - was that - that was true
(17) for the asbestos cement pipe plant at Stockton, correct?
(18)
A. Yes.
(19)
MR. VIEIRA: Same objections.
(20)
Mr. Wilkinson, just so you know, what I'm
(21) objecting is not at all intended as any offense to you.
(22)
MR. WAH: Yes, it is.
(23)
THE WITNESS: Understood.
(24)
MR. VIEIRA: And I know that you probably
(25) understood that. But! thought I would let you know.
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D. Wilkinson 8-25-07
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THE WITNESS: Okay.
(Ii
BY MR. WAN:
(4)
Q. And just so you know, Mr. Wilkinson, wo uio
(u
objecting to save our record. Some ol those quo:,lions
(4)
may be allowed. Some may not be. Who knows? Bui H iy (')
l ias to do his job and make those objections as wo am
(C)
going through this. 1 may have objections when l ie's
(n
doing it. And then we'll let (he judge decide whether
()
or not we're going to present that to the juiy. Okay?
(9)
A. Understood.
(10)
Q. So it's not you.
(ii)
You also said - - how otten would you well.
(id
strike that.
(u
You would get Jeffrey liber in i think you said
0 4)
earlier by railcar; is that correct?
0 5)
A. Yes. Jeffrey always came by railcar.
O (>)
Q. How often did you get a railcar ol Jettiey
( /)
fiber?
< y)
A. On {lie average, you would say you would
0 9)
receive Jeffrey fiber three out of the five days a week.
(2 0)
MR. VIEIRA: I'll object to that, as vague in
(2 1 )
terms of time.
(22)
BY MR. WAH:
(2 3)
Q. I'm talking about the period particularly
(24)
between, let's say, 1976 and 1981. How often would you (2 5)
llioy come in? A. I used Ilium as mlum lurid!, op my (rucks, JM
truck:', up in the: Washington/! Ireqen nr vi Well pu le fin up in Beattie. And they canto in conioi liiis.
Q. And how much llhink you sail H)(.) Ions was in n mili:,ii, is that c.ormd, ol Julimy fib ?tV
A. Yeah. You could piobubly cay n ound live bucks. You know, you got twenty tons >n a truck. Yeah, t would guess lliai's approximate
MR. VIEIRA: I'll object as upuuul tliou. BY MR. WAH:
Q. How otten would yon get (I'm Cm sini fiber':' MR. VIEIRA: Vagin? as to time.
BY MR. WAH: Q. Again, I'm talking about this time period 76
to '81. A. II would come in spuds ol uvailal ilrly. Well,
it's hard to say. You might gel live to le i Iruckloads in a week and store them in inventory a id use (hern as you needed them. And then you might not get any the next week and you might get a conlaine come down ihc following week. It's hard to say. But Ca ssiar was a supplier ol prime fiber so to speak, high quality liber.
MR. VIEIRA: I'll object to that as nonresponsive and speculative.
22 24
(.1 ) (2)
(3) (4) (5) (6)
CM (8) (9) (10) (11) (12) (13) (14) (15) (16) (17) U8) (19) (20) (21) (22) '23) (24) (25)
get the Jeffrey fiber then?
(1 )
MR. VIEIRA: Same objection including
(2)
overbroad.
(3)
BY MR. WAH:
(4)
Q. Go ahead.
(5)
A. Well, 76 to '81 our business was slowing down
(6)
due to the problems that asbestos was evidently causi g (7)
in the workplace. So as that happened, our business
(8)
slowed down. So did the amount of fiber. But, you
(9)
know, Jeffrey would reflect about SO percent as a guests : 10)
to our blends. And we would probably be getting in on (11)
to two railcars a week during those times, sometimes (12)
three. But you would get the equivalent of about five (13)
trucks in a railcar.
(14)
' Q. Did you receive -
(15)
MR. VIEIRA: By the way, I'M object to that as
(16)
nonresponsive.
(17)
BY MR. WAH:
(18)
Q. Did you get -- you received shipments from
(19)
Cassiar as well, is that correct -
(20)
A. Yes.
(21)
Q. -- in the period -- let's kind of confine this
(22)
to the period 76 to '81. Okay, Mr. Wilkinson?
(23)
A. All right.
(24)
Q. You received shipments from Cassiar. How did (2 5)
BY MR. WAH: Q. Advocate Mines, you know Advocate Mines,
correct? A. Yes. Q. Who owned Advocate Mines or who had interest in
Advocate Mines? A. Johns-Manville had 49 percent ownership in
Advocate when we first started using them when we chartered the ships that brought Advocate down to Long Beach and Stockton.
Q. When was that? A. Those were'63. in the early'60s up to'65, '66. That's my best guess. We chartered vessels. And we split the tonnage, 7,000 tons, between Long Beach and Stockton each time.
MR. VIEIRA: Objection. Speculation. BY MR. WAH:
Q. You also talked about African blue, the crocidolite from Cape asbestos.
A. Yes. Q. How did that come in? A. Container. Q. How much fiber would be in a container? A. Eighteen tons. Q. And would you just get one container? We!!,
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D. Wilkinson 8-25-07
'/ OVhj,
SU)
y'l
(.) ) how otten would you get a containei ot the Atiican blue'' ( > )
(2) A. 1 hat's hard to say. As necessaiy, you would
( 3) outer because, you know, you had to oniei Ihmu month ;
( 4 ) ahead because you hud to ship il comes on ships am ('>) then it comes on railcars over to Stockton. And <> you ( 6) hove to you never know when they'm coming in. Hul ( /) you have to go by your inventory in your plant. And
M) ('*) (() CO
( a ) it's hard to say how often we would get il in.
(O
(9) (J 0)
MR. VIEIRA: Objection. Speculation. Do you want me to you know, one thing we could do is
00 ! 1 o)
(] ;) )
MR. WAN: A continuing objection?
(3 1)
(12) (.1 3) (] -1)
MR. VIEIRA: Yeah or - yeah. I mean, I guess I would have to specify in advance the grounds to be fair to you guys. You know, the other thing we can do
(O') (1.0 0 o
(] i)) is not make any objections and we can agree that we e; n <O0
(16) (17 )
make objections when we go to decide what we MR. WAN: That would make a cleaner record.
(1 (>) 07)
Cl 9 )
MR. VIEIRA: I wouldn't have to keep
(MO
(IP) (20)
interrupting Mr. Wilkinson which I don't want to do. So (i q)
it's up to you.
(20)
(21)
MR. WAN: I don't have I think - you know,
m)
(22 ) why don't we just reserve them.
(22)
(23)
MR. VIEIRA: Okay.
(22)
(24)
MR. WAH: Then you can--
(24)
(2b)
MR. ViEIRA: All right.
(2b)
my JM liuck'i,
with !hr liur.lm that C.iluvm.s:.
uwnutJ.
Q, Whun you :,;iy "buck haul," whul do you inrun by
"buck -haul"?
A. Wall, I had Ion mT. o( doubles dial wen*
pulled by JM equipment Imclum. When
deliver
pipe, if wo won* in Iho amn d ial wi- could anno by
CoppetopolM mid they hud libui available, we would mm
il an buck haul so we did nol liavc io come buck with our
trailer:.; amply.
Q, Ruling Ibis period id lime, 76 on, you said il
they had libel that was available you would pick it up
in the truck, jus! till the truck ns it's comini) track
bom a pipe deliveiy, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Mow did you chock on whethei or not the fiber,
the Calavcias fiber was available?
A. Well, when we had a need lot the fiber, we did
not - you know, since it was only 39 miles up to
Copperopolis, we did not have a need to store it in
inventory.
Q. Right,
A. So we would only biintj it in so thal we had a
week or two weeks' supply. And we would talk lo their
dispatch people by phone, And it they were mining and
28
(]) (2 ) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7 ) (8 ) (9) (10) (11) (12) (13) (14) (15) (16) (17) (18) (19) (20) (21) (22) .23) \2 4) (25)
MR. WAH: Because I don't want a record
that's -
MR. VIEIRA: No. 1 don't want to mess it: up
either. So...
'v'
BY MR. WAH:
Q. When you would get a supply in of Cape
asbestos, what - would you just get one container at a
time or would it come in several containers at a time?
How would it come in?
A. Several containers at a time.
Q. And this would be throughout the period that
we're talking about, the 76 through the '81 period as
well?
A. Yes.
Q. ) take it that you only had that one sate of
government amosite fiber; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And that was because it didn't work in the
machinery?
.
A. Right.
Q. Between the years 1976 and 1981, you also
purchased Caiaveras asbestos fiber?
A. Yes.
Q. And how did that come in?
A. Always by truck. Sometimes as a back-haul with
(:i ) they had 0T available or 5K available as necessary and (2) we needed it, we would pick il up or they would strip it
(3) down to us.
(4) Q. Andwhen you say "CT" or "5T," whatever you're
(5) talking about - (6) A. 5K.
( 7) Q. 5K. I'm sorry. When you say that, you're
(8) talking about grades of fiber; is that correct?
(9) A. Yes.
(30)
Q. What other information would you want to know
(11) before you said ship us down or we're going to pick up
(12) (13)
some Calaveras fiber? Well, strike that. Would you also inquire about such things as the
(14) grade or quality of fiber that they were mining?
(15)
A. Well, if they had mined and processed fiber ore
(16) that qualified as - you know, for 4T, we would - if we
(17) had a need, we'd bring it down. We did checks at our
(18) plant once the fiber was there as to what buoyancy the
(19) (20)
fiber had, how porous it was and tensile strength in our lab.
(21) (22) (23)
Q. Would you ever ask Calaveras what buoyancy or tensile strength their fiber that they were producing or had in their storehouse was?
(24)
A. Absolutely.
(25) _____Q. So you would check for that information before
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D. Wilkinson 8-25-07
H (i'.ii.
79 i. i)
7 0 1.1
( i. ) (7) (3) (4} (r>) (0) (!) (H)
{.1 0) CM ) (]>') (1?) 04) (3b)
0 <>) 0?) OB) Ob) (20) (21 ) (22) (23) (2d) (25)
' you would decide to being it on down lor use by
Johns-Manville Stockton; is that coned?
A. No. We would just nek them make sum that
(D
that you knew, what weto yoni test io:,ull:,. AmJ w<.
(4)
would also test it at our lab.
Q. To make sure it met with Johns Manville,
cowed?
(?)
A. Yes.
on
Q. If you said or it Calaveras said, wdl, our
tensile strength is a certain numbei that didn't meet
(19)
your qualifications, then would you purchase the liber?
(i l }
A. Well, they wouldn't bag it as 4i. t hey would
(.I?)
bay it possibly 5K, which is a Josser yrade, and mot the ( I 3 )
specifications. And, you know, Hint's their problem.
(14)
And we would say we need this many tons of IT Anti Ihi y (1 5)
said, well, we're not in a vein that's doing that kind
(.1 b )
of quality right now. All we got is 5K. Go naturally
(1 ? )
we would have to do something else.
(1 )
MR. VIEIRA: I think I better start making my
(i b)
objections only because -
(20)
MR. WAH: Go ahead.
(21)
MR. VIEIRA: - I think it's going to make it
(22)
more difficult on the judge. And I think he'll
(23)
understand when he reads the record. So objection.
(24 )
Nonresponsive, speculative, vague as to time and
( 2 .':>)
A. Yeah, that?- Hu? hack ul the -1 i lug. Do you wanl it back?
Q. Yo.ih ! )o yon n.nutl attm 1987 whet) id the mile m the use- ot Calaveras tibei remained the same, increased or decreased alter 1987 at Johns Manville? oloeklon?
MR. Vll.llsA Objection. Vague. 111! WITNESS: Well, we stalled using Calaveras in 76. BY MR. WAH; Q. I'm sorry, I said It.)/? and I misspoke. I II link I mi.Miit 19 oh, I'm sorry, 191(7 did the use ol Calavoins change in any way at JM Stockton? A. Probably increased a little* bit because we were not owned by .Johns Manville. G. Was there evei a time between the 19/6 and Ifrp/ period dial the use of Calaveras asbestos decreased in yoirr pipe foi mutations? A. No, Stayed about the same. MR. WAH: All right. Lot's go oil the record a niinule. {Break taken.) BY MR. WAH: Q. Mr, Wilkinson, you wore talking about - we're talking still about the pipe being made at the
30 32
0) (2) (3) (4 ) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10) (11) (12) (13) (14 ) (15) (16) (17) (18) (19) (20) (21) (22} '23) (24) (25)
incomplete hypothetical.
BY MR. WAH:
(2)
Q. In relationship to the other fiber suppliers -
(3)
and we'll take out the U.S. government sale because ycu (4 )
only did that once. But in relationship to Jeffrey,
(5)
Cassiar, Advocate and Cape, are you able to state here, (6)
tell us, Mr. Wilkinson, the size of Calaveras or the use
(7)
of Calaveras in relationship to those fiber suppliers?
(8)
MR. VIEIRA: Objection. Vague.
(9)
BY MR. WAH:
(10)
Q. In this period of time at Stockton.
(11)
A Well, Calaveras was our least-used fiber, so it
(12)
was our smallest supplier.
(13)
Q. Was there - oh, let me show you something
(14)
just ~ and Tony, I'm going to use what's been
(15)
previously marked, Mr. Wilkinson, as Defendants'
(16)
Exhibits No. 6 and No. 7. Can you identify what that
(17)
is? (18)
A These are just the bags that Calaveras used to (19)
put their fiber in.
(20)
Q. That's their 4T bag; is that correct?
(21)
A Yes.
(22)
Q. And then would you take a look at No. 7?
(23)
That's the back of the bag; isn't it? I think it's
(24)
upside down there. You got it that way.
(25)
Johns-Manville Siockion, nil right, in [ho years roughly between '76 and '87, okay, at the Stockton plant, I know at one time it was Johns-Manville, but then it became owned by the Formosa Company, okay, after '82. But we're talking about that plant facility. Okay?
A. Yes. Q. In terms of the pipe being made at that facility, (to the words or do the letters MEE mean anything to you? A. It's just nomenclature that we give to short lengths that we supply the customers, half lengths, quarter lengths. Q. Are you familiar with the term "machine each end"? A Yes. That's the MEE. Q. And what does it mean to machine each end? A Well, we supply the customer with closure pieces so he doesn't have to cut pipe in the field. And that's either 6'6" lengths, 3'3" lengths or stubs, 18 inches. And with those pipes, it eliminates the need for them to have to cut pipe in the field, and they can make closures for valves, take-offs, hydrants, things like that.
MR. VIEIRA: I'll just object to that as nonresponsive and lacking foundation.
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D. Wilkinson 8-25-07
9 (I ,*> j' 4 ! Id if,) V} i'.
(.1 ) (2) (3) (4 ) (3) (6) (7) {8) (9) (10) (iI ) (13) (.13) {1 <1) (.] ) (:i 6) (17) {.1 8) (19) (20) (2 J ) (22) (28) (24) (23)
BY MR. WAH:
(J )
Q. You made pipes you said in dilfoienf length:;.
!2)
And i think you said 13 fool, 10-fool, G'6". con cot?
(D
A. Yes.
(4)
Q. 3'3" indies?
f '>)
A. 3'3"s, yes.
(<)
Q. And then you had one that was eilhci 18 oi
('/)
19 indies long, coned'?
(h)
A. Yes.
CD
Q. Now, when you're talking about machining each ( 1 u )
end, what are you actually doing to the ends of tin.;
(II)
pipe, if you know?
(!;*)
A. We're beveling Hie ends ol the pipe oi we'ie
(ID
machining to accept couplings with step machining.
(14)
Q. Let me show you what's been marked as I .xhibit 1 ( l ?)
and Exhibit 2. Let me lay a little foundation beio.
(1 (.)
Do you know what that portrays, Exhibit No. 1 ?
(IV)
What's that a picture of?
( ! 8)
A. Well, that's just a picture ol a shod piece o!
( ! 9)
pipe with coupling machining on each end.
(2 0)
Q. Now, that's a piece ol Iransite pipe, correct?
(21)
A. Yes. It looks like 8-inch 150.
(22)
Q. Eight inches in diameter, 130-pound pressure
(23)
pipe?
(24)
A. 150 class.
(25)
34
lo go into the coupling is smuilei than the dmmcTm g! tin! coupling ilnolf, is that conod?
A. Bullions of il .no, yoah. (J, t don't mean the whole end but the podion A. I xi opt (ho lubbor ring and (hr? coupling. Q, AikI what is yum undeislanding ol well, sfnkothnl.
Is (hour also a ioirn lhai's called "MOA"? A. Yes Q. What does M with legaids lo the John:; Manville pipe, what does MOA mean?' A. Machined ovei all. Q. How does a pipe II iat has that i:. Ml I , machined each end, dilfor from a Johns Manville pipe lhaf has boon MOA? A. Well, a piece ol pipe that we call an MOA, machined over all, that pipe was pul in a lathe af the plant. And it's machined lor the whole diameter of Hie pipe. In other words, Hie length ol Hie whole length ot that piece of pipe is reduced so that you could lake a coupling and slip over ihal end and move if back onto the piece of short - the short piece oi pipe, stub that - - stab that pipe into another line. Then the coupling will til and complete the line. In other words, if you had just a piece of pipe that's machined
3(1
(1) Q. 150 pressure pipe, correct?
(1 )
(2) A. Yes.
(2)
(.9) Q. Now, on that either end, are those - does that
(3)
(4 ) depict a piece of pipe that has had the MEE or where you (4}
(5) have machined each end?
(5)
(6) A. Yes.
(CD
(7) Q. And the purpose of that is so that you can slip
(7)
( 8 ) I think you said the pipe into a coupling without
(8)
(9) beveling?
(9)
(10)
MR. VIEIRA: Objection. Leading.
(10)
(11)
THE WITNESS: No. This pipe is just used when Ul)
(12) you onfy need a short piece of pipe to complete the
(12)
(13) line.
(13)
(14)
MR. VIEIRA: Objection. Nonresponsive.
(14)
(15) BY MR. WAH:
(15)
(16)
Q. What's the purpose of machining each end?
(16)
(17)
A. Well, so the short piece could accept a
(17)
(18) coupling.
(18)
(19)
Q. So a coupling would slide over the short piece? (19)
(20)
A. Yes. A coupling goes right on here or on here
(20)
(21) (indicating) to complete a pipe.
(21)
(22)
Q. On either side. So i take it that the outside
(22)
/ 23) diameter of the machined end is smaller than the inside (23)
(24) diameter of the coupling; is that correct? After you've
(24)
(25} machined the end, the piece - the male end that's going (25)
on one end, the coupling won't fit and move back on Hie pipe. It'll only just complete Hie line. So the machine over all allows you to slip a coupling back on the pipe, then take and complete the line with a coupling.
MR. VIEIRA: Objection. Nonresponsive. BY MR. WAH:
Q. And would that process that you've just described, would that involve any kind of sanding or grinding in order to complete that joining of the two pipes?
MR. VIEIRA: Objection. Speculation. THE WITNESS: No. That's the purpose of the whole thing. We supply the customer with shorts and MEEs and MOAs so that he won't have to cut pipe in the field and make his closures. MR. VIEIRA: Objection. Nonresponsive and speculation. BY MR. WAH: Q. How long has Johns-Manviile been making pipes of various lengths? By that I mean the 13-foot, the 10-foot, the 6-foot all the way down to the 18-inch pipe? A Well, as far as the Stockton plant is concerned ~
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D. Wilkinson 8-25-07
10 (Pttgua 17 | o 40)
37 39
(1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10)
(11) (12) (13) (14) (15) (16) (17) (18) (19) (20) (21) (22) (23) (24) (25)
Q. Sfockfon plant.
(1)
A. from the outset when the plant canto up, wo
(2)
started making shorts to be available loi the customer,
(3)
1957.
(4)
Q. And by "shorts," you're talking about pipes
(5)
that ore either -- that are less than the 13-foot length
(6)
or the 10-foot length; is that correct?
(7)
A. Yes, that's correct.
(8)
Q. In relationship to Johns-Manville Stockton?
(9)
A. Yes.
(10)
Q. Did you make that length of pipe throughout tho (M)
entire length of time that it was owned by
(12)
Johns-Manville, that is, from 19 I think '57 to 1982?
(13)
A. Yes.
(14)
Q. Did you make that varying length of pipe all
(15)
the way from 1982 till the time the plant closed?
( 16)
A. Yes.
(17)
Q. Did you make pipe that had the MEO, machine e Dd(18)
only, classification or description on it, and when did
(19)
you first start making that kind of pipe, if you recall,
(20)
at Stockton?
(21)
A. You mean pipe that we called "stubs" that we
(22)
supplied to the customer?
(23)
Q. Let me ask it this way: At Johns-Manville
(24)
Stockton, when did you first begin machining the ends (25)
Q. And just () Ifut wo'ir i In,ii, lh.it would bo Momotlniu .'imund 1982?
A '81 Q. *81 I'm sorry. 1981? A. Yos. Q. And w.r. tho pipn ilsel! I.ibulnd, uiiuh pioco lubclcd, oi was il a unit <>i bundle ot pipe:, that was labeled, if you recall? A. II was a unit of pipo that war. labeled Q. And this was done .it JM Stockton? A. Yeah. Just in the just in tho last year we ran. Q. Did the labeling of pipe continue while it was owned by tho people from Formosa beginning in 1982? A. No, Q. they stopped labeling the pipe? A. Yes. Q. Did they ever resume labeling the pipe to the best of your knowledge? A. Best of my knowledge, no. Q. In your capacity as the general superintendent, general manager of the plant, plant superintendent, were you ever involved in any of the efforts to sell the pipe to some of the Johns-Manville customers during the period '57 to '87?
38 40
(1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10)
(ID (12) (13) (14) (15) (16) (17) (18) (19) (20) (21) (22) '23) (24) (25)
only?
(1)
A. Right from the start-up of the plant.
(2)
Q. 1957?
(3)
A. Yes.
(4)
Q. And was that a process that you -- that
(5)
continued throughout the time the plant was opened and (6)
owned either by Johns-Manville or by the Chinese?
(7)
A. Yes.
(8)
Q. What about the pipe that was machined over all (9)
MOA-type pipe?
(10)
A. That pipe was also set up and made. There was (11)
a coupling center and a machining center in the plant (12)
right from the start-up of '57.
(13)
MR. VIEIRA: Objection. Nonresponsive.
(14)
BY MR. WAH:
(15)
Q. Do you recall a time from the opening of the
(16)
plant till the closing of the plant, that '57 to late
(17)
'80s period, do you recall a time when Johns-Manville (18)
ever put any kind of warning label about asbestos on its (19)
pipe or on its bundles of pipe?
(20)
A. I believe the last year that we were in
(21)
operation as Johns-Manville I think finishing started
(22)
putting the warning labels on the units of pipe going
(23)
out of finishing. I think they did the last year that
(24)
we were running.
(25)
A. Only in the capacity of being a plant representative that went in the field to observe.
Q. And you yourself have been in the field to observe the laying of pipe; is that correct?
A. Yes. Q. And you also had a sales staff that worked for you that went out to observe the laying of pipe; is that correct? A. They didn't work for me directly. They worked for sales. You're talking about people that instructed in the installation and stringing of pipe that those people worked for sales.
MR. VIEIRA: Objection. Nonresponsive. Objection. Speculation. Motion to strike. BY MR. WAH:
Q. In the years that you were at Johns-Manville, do you know if the Johns-Manville Stockton plant had people who went out to instruct the customers of the Johns-Manville Stockton plant in howto install and lay pipe, AC pipe?
MR. VIEIRA: Objection. Lack of foundation. THE WITNESS: Yes. We had professional installers, representatives that instructed contractors and pipe-laying crews. We had a building on site at the plant that we invited contractors in. And we
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D. Wilkinson 8-25-07
.1.1 ............. 4) io 44)
4I 47
( l ) demonstrated closures and stringing and belling pipe ( I )
A. I'i oatf.Rticd, ym>
(::) ahead and setting up valves and things like that, and (?)
Q. So i! would (<>iiin lo,) job:,He willt aliendy the
(3) also if necessary the cutting of pipe.
( H) coupling on il?
('1) MR. VIEIRA: Objection. Nonresponsive.
(4) A. Yon.
( 5) BY MR. WAH:
(>) Q. You know wh.il Col W.iier in, a compai ly culled
{(>) Q. If you know, did Johns Manvillo have a
( 6) Cal WnloiV
(7 ) requirement for the level of education or the type of
(?) A. Il's one ()l oui etislomeis. Used lo be.
( h ) education its salespeople who were selling AC pipe
(8) G. You know them lo boa big company? Small
(9) during this period of time had to have?
(`B company? Can you loll me
(10) A. All our sales - all our salesmen were
(10)
A. A vrny laige company.
(31) engineers.
(11)
Q. And Ihey'n? Ihe company dial's located up in
( .12)
MR. VIEIRA: Objection. Lack of foundation,
( 1 2 ) Can Jose oi Campbell; is that coned? I hey'i e
ill) BY MR. WAN:
(17) headquartered in Can Jose; do you know lhal?
() 4)
Q. And when you were the general manager, Ihese (14)
A. I'm nol sun.*.
(3 5) were the salesmen who were under your not direct
(1 n)
Q. Nevoi mind,
(] (5) supervision but you were responsible as Ihe general
(1 t>)
Was (here over a lime Dial Ihe Johns Manvilio
(37) manager for these salespeople?
(17) Sloddon plan! dislributed widen material lo ifs
(IB)
A. Indirectly, yes.
(.1 H ) customers aboul Ihe coding and inslallalion of asbestos
(3 9)
MR. VIEIRA: So objection. Nonresponsive,
(1 9) cemenl. pipe?
(20) foundation, speculation. Lack of foundation 1 should
(2 0)
MR. VIEIRA: Objection. Lack of foundation,
(21 ) say.
(21) vague.
(22) BY MR. WAH:
(22) BY MR. WAH:
(22 )
Q. When you used the term "stringing pipe," can
(23)
Q. If you know.
(24) you explain to us what you understand that term to mea 'i (2 4)
A. Yes.
(25) what it comes to AC pipe?
(25)
MR. VIEIRA: Same objections.
' 42
44
(1) (2) (3} (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10) (11) (12) (13) (14) (15) (16) (17) (18) (19) (20) (21) (22) .(23) (24) (25)
A. On ail the bigger jobs, trenches were dug prior
(l )
THE WITNESS: We made dial: literature available
to laying out a pipeline. And then alter the trenches
(2) to all the contractors.
were dug, pipe was strung off of trucks the whole length (3)
MR. VIEIRA: Objection. Nonresponsive.
of the line. And then the labor force of the contractor
(4) BY MR. WAH:
belled ahead the pipe in the trenches. And we worked
(5)
Q. And when you say you made it "available," what
with them as far as teaching them the proper way to bell (6) do you mean by that?
the pipe and string it in the trenches and unloading it
(7)
A. The salesmen had it, and they gave it to the
from the trucks.
( 8) contractors. And it's up to the contractors if they
Q. What does "bell the pipe" mean in your
(9) chose to use il or not use it.
description?
(10)
MR. VIEIRA: Objection to that. Lack of
A. Well, when we're belling pipe, you have a piece (11) foundation, speculation. It's also vague as to what
of pipe, and then you slip a coupling on the end of it.
(12) ''that" is.
You lubricate the pipe, then you slip the coupling and (13) BY MR. WAH:
the rubber ring on, and then you stab the next pipe intc (14)
Q. Well, that was it. When you say "that," what
that coupling. And that's bell the head. In other
(15) are you talking about, Mr. Wilkinson?
words, you keep belling the pipe. "Belling" indicates
(16)
MR. VIEIRA: Same objections.
the coupling itself on the end of the pipe.
(17)
MR. WAH: Let me start that over again.
Q. And then as part of that belling process, just
(18) BY MR. WAH:
so I'm clear, are you saying that you slip a coupling on (19)
Q. The safety material that you just described,
one pipe and then you just stab another piece so that (20) can you -- was it a pamphlet? Was it a booklet? Do you
you're now joining pipe?
(21) know?
A. Yes. See, when we shippipe, many of the
(22)
A. Booklet.
contractors ask for the coupling to be attached to the (23)
MR. VIEIRA: Objection to the word "safety
pipe.
(24) material." it assumes facts not in evidence. It's also
Q. Preattached?
(25) vague.
______
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D. Wilkinson 8-25-07
12 \,, Hi)
0 ' < <3 7
o ) BY MR. WAH:
() Q. The malarial you talked about in terms of
; (.1) instructing some; of your cusfomeis how to oul und lay
{ 4 ) pipe, okay, do you know why dial was distributed lo
(0) them?
() MR. VIEIRA: Objection. Assumes tads, also
( V) vague and speculation, lack of foundation.
() BY MR. WAH:
(9) Q. You can answer.
{) 0)
A. In our case, we wauled lo make sun:? ihai Iho
(11) pipe was laid properly so then? was no leaks and Dial
{]'/} they used the available three? peieent of shod:.; that
j
(i :.i) were given on these jobs lo make all II n n closures so
(] 4) that they wouldn't have a lot of culling. The
(.1 :>) contractors objected to that as much ns possible because
(.1 6) it was high labor costs.
0.7)
MR. VIEIRA: Same objections as last staled.
(] 8) BY MR. WAH:
(:i'))
Q. Did you - if you know, did you over distribute
(20) at Johns-Manville Stockton any material or instructions
(2 :i) that showed people how to cut pipe .and minimize any kin-
(22 ) of dust at the same time they were cutting?
(2 2)
MR. VIEIRA: Objection. Compound as well as
(24) the last stated objections. Speculation, lack of
(25) foundation, vague, assumes tacts not in evidence.
{ l ) used lo use Iho t.ti.nnr.
( 2 ) Q, And what did they use Urn chains lor ?
(J<) A. In on,ip nit !hu pipo
(4) 0. I o cut it?
(b) A. Yeah, lo cut it.
(<>) O. Do you me;ill whun you lust sow simp cullers
( i! being used with regards to Iho Iransilc pipe oi the AC
(10 pipo?
I o) MR. VIEIRA: Can I have Iho guoslion road back
(10) please before wr? gel an answer?
(I !)
(Record read,)
!'! 2 )
MR VII IRA: Objection. Assumes lads.
(10 BY MR. WAH:
(14)
Q. Did yon ever see snap cutters being used will)
( lIransile pipo, AC pipe?
(ic)
A. Yes.
() /)
Q. When did you firstsee that?
(:i 8 )
A, Sometime in the '60, I ale '60s.
( ! 9)
MR, VIEIRA: Do you need another break, or are
(30) you doing all right.?
(2f)
MR. WAH: I'm sorry. I'm just actually kind ot
(22) wrapping up, Tony. No, I know.
(23)
MR. VIEIRA: Thought I would ask.
(24) BY MR. WAH:
{2 b)
Q. Do you know if the written if the material
46
(1) (2) (3) (4) (5) ( 6) (7) (8) {9) (10) (11) (12) (13) (14) (15) (16 ) (17) (18) (19) (20) (21) (2 2) (23) (24) (25)
THE WITNESS: Yes. BY MR. WAH:
Q. And your answer was "yes." What did you distribute?
MR. VIEIRA: Objection. Vague, lack of foundation, calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: Well, I've seen the sales pamphlets and the installation instructions, literature that they gave out to contractors. And it just depicted pictures and steps and if necessary how to cut pipe. But they totally wanted to avoid it if possible. That's why we supplied them with these 6'6"s and 3'3"s and sti 18-inch so they could make their closures without doing any cutting.
MR. VIEIRA: Objection. Nonresponsive. THE WITNESS: Because we always had access to their drawings, plans, lay-outs. We knew whether - what it was going to take in footage and supplied them with those. MR. VIEIRA: Objection. Vague. Objection. Nonresponsive. No question pending. BY MR. WAH: Q. You know what the term "snap cutters" means in terms of AC pipe? A. To the best of my knowledge, that was when they
(') ) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7 ) (8) (9) (10) (1.1) (12) (13) (14) (15) (16) (17) (18) (IS) (20) (21) (22) (23) (24 ) (25)
1 hat Johns-Manville distributed as to the cutting and laying of pipe also included any kind of information r egarding asbestos hazards and how lo minimize hazards of wor king with asbestos?
MR. VIEIRA: Objection. Assumes facts. It's compound. It's also leading. Also lacks foundation, calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know if employees at the plant were given pamphlets and everything in 1975. In the field, contractors and them,! don't know.
MR. VIEIRA: You don't have any recollection of that?
THE WITNESS: Of contractors? MR, VIEIRA: Yeah. THE WITNESS: No, not of asbestos hazards. MR. VIEIRA: I'll withdraw my objections to the last question. MR. WAH: I figured you would. That's all t have. MR. VIEIRA: Can we take a little break so you and I can switch positions and I can switch my stuff? MR. WAH: Sure, (Pause in the proceedings.) MR. WAH: Let's go back on the record. We're going to begin with the cross-examination
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D. Wilkinson 8-25-07
II (
4'J l.o 52)
4o M
(U (:') (?) in) CO (CO (V) (10 00 ( ! 0)
(so (14) (.1 .'O
(1 6)
( ) 7) ( J ) (1 '0 (20) cn) (22) (23) (24) (23)
ot Mr. Wilkinson. And Ibis is Douglas Wall hn
(!)
Calaveras. I'm going lo re:>x vt? my objections unlil a
()
later time we can take if up with the judge, And
( ')
Mr. Vieira lias agreed to that, Ami Imre is the rest of
(-I )
the exhibits back tor yon,
('.)
EXAMINATION BY MR. VII IRA:
(c)
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Wilkinson. I low an- you
! /)
now?
(is)
A. Fine.
(u)
Q. Good. Good. We're going lo do our'best fo bo
( fb)
efficient here and gel through for your bonolil, And I
(.ii)
think we nil want to get done, too do hopefully we'ie
(l ?)
not wasting any ol your lime.
( M)
One ol Hie Ihings thai you were bilking about
(14)
was how to know what biend was in pniiicuim pipe af a
(15)
particular point ot time. I'd like to kind ol slad
(i e)
just asking you some questions on Ihnl logic it Ural's
(17)
all right.
( !H)
A. Fine.
(il))
Q. Is it true that ail use of asbesios in I ho
(2 0)
manufacturing ot asbestos cement pipe at .Stockton had (I) ()M)
be authorized either by a divisionwide specification or
[22)
a deviation?
(23)
A. That's a yes.
(2 4)
Q. Do you want to qualify that a! all?
(2 5)
wha! had happened novoi happened So we had envoi.il slutts that t was aw.in - ot IhaS wo did comolhim.) necessary !u got IIit? pnniuclion i.iles up II was nol necessarily lo go! tin- gualily up because you'io lluoe days away hum knowing wlmHiui iFs good m lead in Iho fr.--.lini} Go whnl you say is line, and I here me exceptions to lire rule Ural liyuralivoly never happened
0. I undcrsland. lundersland. A. And those were few and lai helwoon, but limy did happen. And I was pi ivy to being aware- ot them at ceiFirii limes and being pad of (hem, Bui limn when my losponsibiliiios gol In the point wlwie il was me Ihnl had So bo I had lo answei ior what 1 did, i was voiy, voiy cauliou:. filings changed, limes changed and mom (tiles are put in so Ural lliose ihings ean'l happen. And as lira! happened, Jlial won! away. Fin! in limes gout? by, Iheio war; a Jot of limes lhal that happened. Q. So jus! lo make sum I node-island il - and I think I do. I apologize lo you now for (.Icing Uns lawyer tiring and i (.-staling whal you said. But I just want to make sure I've gol a good handle on il. If I say somelhing lo you fhal's nol light, I Irust you'll let me know. Okay? A. Yes. Q. i think whai you're saying is in the earlier
50 52
01.) (2) (3) (4)
(3) (6) (7) (6) (9) (10)
(11) (12) (13) (14) (15) (16) (17) (18) (19) (20) (21) (22) (23) (24) (25)
A. Yes.
(:i)
Q;' Okay.
(2)
A. On one point.
(3)
Q. Okay.
(n )
A. There have been times when i was a machine
(5)
tender and there have been limes when I was a shift
(6)
foreman and there's been times when ! was a
(7)
superintendent when each of those times i had different
(8)
responsibilities and saw' what was done. And I have seen (9)
times when we were running a standard blend and it was (10)
not performing on a machine at tire rates necessary to
(11)
qualify -- you know, to make our standards.
{12 )
Q. Right.
(13)
A. And we deviated with a deviation blend. And I
(14)
have seen times when the deviation blend was not workirjg (15)
and when people that had more responsibility than me, l (16)
was told to change a few things back at the willows
(17)
where the initial fibers are put in and go another
(18)
direction for my shift, and when ) came on the next time
(19)
around they were still doing it and then went off of it.
(2 0)
Tiney had sweetened the pot so to speak and taken one (21)
fiber and added it and pulled one fiber out. And this
(22)
was below the radar so to speak. And then went back on (23)
to the deviation blend that was not working well. And
(24)
got in contact with division headquarters, 1 was told
(25)
days during your lime at Johns- Manville, if was the general rule that what went into a particular blend was controlled either by the divisionwide specification or Ihe deviation that was operative during that particular time period.
A. Yes. Q. But that there were rare occasions when below the radar for a shift or two you might - somebody might take it upon themselves to deviate the blend even from a deviation. But that would revert back to whatever deviation or spec was in effect after those one or two shifts? A. Yeah. And then in the future there would be inventory adjustments to compensate for tonnage used that never happened. Q. But at least with regards to the earlier days, what I just said to you wasaccurate? A. Yes. Q. And in the later times - and ! don't know when that would be. Let's say 1987. Well, strike that.
Let me ask you this just to let you tell us: You told us there was an occasion where you became more directly responsible for making sure that what was in the blends was what was supposed to be in the blends.
A. Yes.
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D. Wilkinson 8-25-07
)/} < i . ,M. . VI
up)
Vi 55
{ I ) Q. What time peiiod are we talking about now?
(?) A. We're talking late '60s, early '/Os.
( ?) Q. Up through '87?
(A) A. `81. `87 it you waul to r.ounl both coinpankm.
(5) Q. At any rate, during that lime peiiod, I flunk
( G) what you've been saying lo us is that it was even mote
( 7 ) so true fhal what won! into a parlicular blend was
( 8 ) determined either by the divisionwide spec or the
( 9) deviation that was operative during any pailieulai time
() 0)
period.
(l 1)
A. Yes.
(1 ? )
Q. Now, how long have you known Mr. Wall
(,|J) approximately?
CM)
A. This is 2007. Maybe late'90s.
(1 9)
Q. And Ilake itthat you.......thereason you - the
(J G) context in which you go!to know him was inDie con!e>
(17) of a witness in litigation involving Calaveras Asbestos;
(,i 8 ) is that your recollection?
(:i 9)
A. Yes.
(20)
Q. When was it that JM in Stockton tried that test
(2.) ) run of the amosite?
(22)
A. Mid'60s.
(23)
Q. '64 or '6(5, '66, sometime in there?
(24)
A. Yes.
(2 5)
Q. And never again after that, correct?
(i) without lining it in pomun
( .') A. (-oil, I don't know.
( <! Q, A month age? two months ago? Ivonvooks ;igt7
(4) A. /\ oOlipliMil wuek;. ugo, yoah.
('>) 0. I )id In.' ovrf ask you il in piopoiing Ini this
(i>) deposition it would be if you Ihoughl j| would Ire
( /) belplul fol yon to have eiihoi (ho lomiod gioduelion
{ii) locoids oi the linished piodudion im oids?
C5 A. I would have them?
{'u)
Q, Yeah. Did heuvoi ask you il youIhought il
( i 1 ) would be belplul lei mebreak llial up.
(3 )
Did lie over ask you il ho thought it would lie
(i U helpful loi you in propaiing lot this deposition tor you
(14) to have the loimod piodudion iccoids horn 19/5 up
( I '.'>) through 1985?
( l i>)
A. No, ) bioughl up the tact that the only way
(IV) you'd mally know whal was made was il you looked at
(18) toiming department production ic-eoids not finishing
( l 9) depndrnenl production locoids. I wanted to qualify that
(? 0) because yon don't have all the additional intoimotion on
(21) linished piodudion mauds. You just have numbei ol
(?2 ) pipes, number ol units, number o! loot.
(?3)
0. All light. When you brought that up, what
(24) you've just told us, did you ask him to gel those
(25) records so that you could look at them to prepare tor
54 5 6
(I) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10)
(11) (12) (13) (14) (15) (16)
(17) (18) (19) (20) (21) (22) (23) (24) (25)
A. Correct.
{i )
Q. You talked earlier about I believe a couple
(2)
different types of records that would be created during (8)
the forming or the finishing of products.
(4)
A. Yes.
(5)
Q. One type I believe you called the formed
(6)
production records.
(7)
A. Yes. That's all production. It was recorded
(8)
that all pipe machines in the forming department at (he (9)
end of every 24-hour period, those were all pulled
(10)
together and laid out. And those records were kept. (31)
Q. And then I think the other type was the
(12)
finished production records; is that true?
(13)
A. Yes. The finished production records is
(14)
your - is what the plant is given credit for as far as (15)
production to division, in other words,saleable
(16)
product.
(17)
Q. When was the first time you recall meeting witih (18)
Mr. Wah on this particular case?
(19)
A. This particular case?
(20)
Q. Yeah.
(21)
A. A few days ago.
(22)
Q. A few days ago? Do you recall when you first (23)
spoke to him about this particular case? Was it on tf e (24)
phone or -- i guess that's one way you could do it
(25)
this deposition? A. No. Q. Did he offer lo get those formed production
records for you so that you could prepare for this deposition?
A. No. Q. Did he offer to give you any linished production records so that you could prepare for this deposition? A. No. Q. Mr. Wah was asking you about the comparative size of the mines, the Jeffrey mine and then the mine up at Copperopolis. A. Yes. Q. Do you know how big the mine at Copperopolis is, let's say, in diameter or any other measurement that folks that know might use to talk about the size of the mine? A. i looked at its production capacity. And that tells me what it is as compared to Jeffrey. I worked in Jeffrey for almost six months. And it is so huge and its production is so enormous, and the railcars are just unuseful. Ore that goes out of there is just so big as compared to what I just glanced at when I was up at Copperopolis one time --
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D. Wilkinson 8-25-07
i. h (! '. J' |> - 1 / t.< > no)
`.7 nu
(1) . U)
(?) (4) ( a) (i.) ( /) (h) CO ( .10) Cl I) ()2) (i. 3) ( :m ) (]'.>) {:i i.) (I >) . {.1 n) (.1 9) (2 0) (2 i ) (2 2) (23)
(2 4) (25)
Q. Yeah.
A. that I knew thatlhe Copperopolis mine is
just a small, small operation as compared lo Jeltiey.
Q. I'm just trying to got at i! you'ie able to
give us a more certain tee! tor how big that mine in.
Is that something you're able to do or
MR. WAN: "That mine" being Calaveras?
MR. VtEiRA: Yeah, "that mine" being Calaveras.
I apologize.
THE WITNESS: Physically?
BY MR. VIEIRA:
Q. Yeah. I'm not saying you can. I'm just
wondering if you can.
A. No, I can't.
Q. All right.
.
A. I just remember seeing the production
capacities, arid t remember seeing what I could ot the
mine when I was there one time. And it was just a small
operation in my mind as compar ed to what I had seen and
worked at the Jeffrey operation. I mean, the Jettroy
operation processing mill is twelve stories high, and
Copperopolis is nothing compared lo that.
Q. How many different asbestos cement pipe making
plants did JM have?
A. At one time, eleven.
( ! ) going lo go lo who! plant?
( ? ) A. Shipping i < woio piimniy nnd quality of
( 3 ) fiboi won socondaiy. And cop,idly ot ihu plant ah.o had
( 4 ) to bo heavily considered bec.iuso we had big mw-i itoiy
(5)stoiago. Any space we had foi invonto/y of tiboi
( o ) Jotlicy would utilize. And they won.? aw.sre of what
(7) capacity every plant had because the fiber division had
18 ) lo know those kind ot things. 1 Ik; insulation plants,
( 9 ) the llooring plants, Ihu looting plants, they all used
(10) Jettroy liber Anri the Jeffrey mini; was producing at
(It) sudi a high rate; tor the whole company. Hut (I io pipe
(1 2 ) division was Ihu biggest user ot the Jeffrey fiber. /\nd
(Id) who received tin.? mod fiber was the cheapest shipping
(14 ) cost naturally. And they fried to and the size ol
(1 5 ) the plant had to be considered and tin.? inventory
(1 (>) capacity ot I ho plant had to bo considered. Anri Julfiey
(17) made sure that everybody was wait docked light to the
(] 8 ) gunnels. Since I've been in every plant in tiro system
(1 9) and knew everybody and woikod at it, I also had to work
(20) will) Capcoal (phonetic) because we licensed Capcoal to
(2.1) make the asbestos cement pipe and help build (heir
(22) plants. We put our management people into their plants.
(2 3} They were a big user ol Jeffrey. So I got involved
(24) there.
(25)
Q. Alt right. And one of the things that
58 60
CD Q. And I'm not trying to quiz you, but do you
(1 ) Mr. Knlen was telling us was that lie was talking to us
(?) recall where they werebesidesLong Beach and Stocktor ? (2) about this whole nolion of point values for libers and
(3) A. Yes.
(3) about the utility and blending of various kinds ol
(4) Q. Where else?
(4) fibers in order fo get the best pipe. Are you familiar
{!;)
A. Dennison, Texas;Marrero, Louisiana; Waukegan,
(5) with that whole notion of point values?
(6) Illinois; Manville, New Jersey; Toronto, Canada; Green
( 6) A. Yes.
CD Coast Springs, Florida. Let's see.
(7) Q. Was there ever a point in time when JM
(8) Q. That's good enough. If it comes back to you,
(8) manufactured a piece of asbestos cement pipe, let's
{9) let me know.
(9) confine it to Stockton, when it didn't have a blend of
(10)
A. Okay.
(10) asbestos fibers?
(11)
MR. WAH: You get a B plus.
(11)
A. Could you repeat that question? f don't quite
(12)
MR.VIEtRA: No. He's doing a great job.
(12) understand it.
(13) BY MR. VIEIRA:
(13)
Q. Was there ever a point in time when -- let me
(14)
Q. So in terms of the fiber suppliers to those
(14) ask it this way: When the asbestos cement pipe
(15) different places, let's say Waukegan, do you know
(15) manufactured at Stockton didn't have multiple kinds of
(16) whether or not Waukegan aiso got a portion or got some (16) asbestos in it?
(l 7) fiber from the Jeffrey mine?
(17)
A. No.
(18)
A. Absolutely.
(18)
Q. So it was always a blend of fibers A, B, C and
(19)
Q. So I take it the Jeffrey mine was supplying not
(19) D, whatever those might be?
(20) only fiber to you out here at Stockton but probably ail
(20)
A. Yes.
(21) the other plants as well?
(21)
Q. And I take it there was a reason in terms of
(22)
A. Every plant in the system of Johns-Manville
(22) rates of production and the quality of the pipe why you
(23) received the bulk of their fiber from Jeffrey.
(23) wouid want to blend fibers as opposed to just using one
(2 4)
Q. What were the conditions, if you know, that
(24) type of fiber?
(25) were taken into account in figuring out what fiber was
(25) ____A. Right.
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D. Wilkinson 8-25-07
{)
(3)
((>) (>) (i'i) CO
(1 u)
m.) U2)
(J 3)
( :m ) {3 !>) (1 6) U'/) UB)
(i y)
(20) (2:i) (22) (23) (24) (2:>)
U) (2) (3) (4) (3) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10) (11) (12) (13) (14) (15) (16) (17) (18) (19) (20) (21) (22) (23) '(24) (25)
1 u :\'ru,' M in M)
{. !
Q. Now, you said dial shipping ousts wore Ihu
(J)
primary consideration in determining who! Iibei woi it o C')
what plant, coned? A. That was one of the very high things that were
(I) (4)
considered, yes.
('->}
Q. I understand. And aside ttom I think yon said
((-)
shipping being primary, you said quality was also a
(7)
consideration, but it was secondaiy in lomis ol
(H)
determining what fiber went to what plant.
()
A. Yes.
(.10)
Q. What was the closest mine to Stockton?
()) )
A. Had to be Copperopolis, Calaveias,
(12)
Q. Did you ever at any point in lime at Stockton (13)
use any asbestos from any other California mine othei (14)
than the mine at Copperopolis?
(1 5)
MR. WAH: Objection. Fife objection. We'll
( l 6)
talk about it later. Go ahead.
(17)
BY MR. VIEIRA:
(:i 8)
Q. To your knowledge.
(1 9)
A. Corona was the only one that had any liber .
(2 0)
And they didn't have any fiber ot the quality that we (21)
needed. So no. The answer is no to your question. ( 22)
Q. Copperopolis was the only mine in California ( 2.3)
Irom which you got asbestos fiber?
(24)
A. Yes.
(25)
0, Yu,id. A. No 0. II I could h.ivn those back. A. (Will loss complies.) Q. I hunk you, sir
You sold u.jilici Ilia! aflur 19B2 Ihu Cfor.ldoii plant':.; u:.u of Calaveras ineiuasud.
A. Yc. Q, Con you loll us did il inueaso was Ihom a Heady incieaso all Ihe way up !o 'is/, or was I hen? some intoiinediale point in time when il dipped oil boloie the plant Finally dosed in 'BY? A. Well, tiom T2 lu 'li/ the availability ol Ihe Iibei made it an intermittent use since it was not available all Hie time when we wanted il. I would have taken inoie Iibei liom dial mine it if was available. Bui H was not because, see, l did not have, (ho overseers in the asbestos liber division on my case anymore telling mo wlial I could and couldn't ion. And I wanted to use more Calaveras, especially the 41. It was a good product. Bui il wasn't available all the time. It was only available some ol the time. So il was Irani to run a blend and then change a blend and run a blend and change a blend. You just don'! want to do that. It's too slow a process and it's too time consuming to
62 64
Q. And I take it the shipping costs from
(.1)
Copperopolis would have been - to gel an equivalent
(2)
unit of asbestos from Copperopolis would have been muc>h (3)
less than the shipping costs, let's say, from somewhere
(4 )
in Canada?
'
(5)
A. Absolutely.
(6)
Q. Did the mine at Copperopolis have a rail spur?
(7)
A. I'm sure they must. I did not see it and
(8)
wasn't concerned with it and wasn't even interested in
(9)
it because trucking was the primary use and cheapest.
(1.0)
Q. Wouldn't be any reason to stick fiber from a
(11)
plant from a mine 37 miles away in a railcar and ship it
(12)
down here when you had trucking available?
(13)
A. Right.
(14)
Q. Now, i want to show you just a couple of these
(15)
exhibits that you were shown earlier. Actually, give me
(16)
a moment to try to find what I'm looking for here.
(17)
I want to show you 6. You said that was a
(18)
picture of a Calaveras bag, right?
(29)
A. Yes.
(20)
Q. And then that's the front of the bag. And I
(21)
think 7 is the back of the bag, right?
(22)
A. Right.
(23)
Q. Do you know when those bags were manufactured? (24)
A. When?
.(25)
stmt changing formulations back at the willows and llren through the pipe machines. And it's just that you have these great, big holding bins, and you till them up prior to Ihe running of that machine and that shift for that product line. And you need to have a steady stream of material that you can depend on. And l had a tough time getting fiber on a steady basis. So a lot of times I would get frustrated and I would just take it completely out of the system and wait until I could gel enough so that I could have a sustained run of a month or two months at least instead of these partial weeks and half weeks and run out and all of a sudden be told that there was no more coming that I thought was corning. I thought I had fifty tons coming. It turns out to be five. So it was a tough situation all the way around during those years. You wanted it, and it was a good product, but you couldn't get it on a timely basis. So that's --
Q. Now, i take it that I'm - having looked at the divisionwide specs and the deviations, it looks like the percentage of Calaveras that went into a particular blend was, let's say, between just over 7.8 percent to about 29.7 percent. Is that your recollection of the percentage of Calaveras in the blend when a blend had Calaveras?
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D, Wilkinson 8-25-07
17 jw.'i 11V' lo f > B)
O') <>7
1) 2) (3} (4) (?) ID
(?) ID (11) ID)) CM ) (13! (.1 3) (34) (3 8) GD CM ) (Di) CD) (20) (2J ) (22)
(23) (24)
(25)
A. You're Diking porcufiliios oik! f used lo Inlk
bags. Lei me jus! change the phraseology a lilllo bil
12)
1 was used lo one bag in len, one bag in eleven, one ) ) ig I D
in twelve, sometimes (wo hags
(4)
Q. In ten?
CO
A. Yes. Eveiy once in a while we would tun Iwo
CD
liags. Mosi limes if was one bag in a batch. 1 hnl wa; what we were asked to use. . Q. 1 lake it lhal the bags wore equivalent in son* so that if you had one bag in a batch ol len, it's len percent Calaveras liber?
CM CM CM (10) DU
A. Dial's right.
D3)
Q. If you had Iwo bags in a batch ol len, il's
DM
20 percent?
(M)
A. That's right.
( 15)
Q. If you had three bags, it's 30 percent?
(CO
A. Yes. But 1 never, ever lo my recollection
( C/)
remember ever using Ihree bags ol Calavei as.
(1 )
Q. We may - before we're finished here, we may (19)
actually take a look at a couple of deviations or
(20)
divisionwide blends. But at any rale, you're used to
CD)
talking in bags per ten or eleven?
(33)
A. Yes. Q. Thai was Ihe jargon fhaf you guys used at the
(23) (24 )
time?
(25)
Id's nay, inigaljou pipe oi -(wci pipe? A, Yus. ibu lesl was much moio ngi<i. Q. Go you iH.M-ih'd Itb.-i willi a liiyhci point value,
geiieialiy muie than Dial in the water pipe than you did in Iho newel pipe or Iho iniynlion pipe?
A.. Yeah. You liaij lo have* a rniieh hiyhei wali Ihickness al llie mai hme. Yu when you incioaned (he Wall thickness lo piodm e a piessuie pipe, lf':. hard |u loim on Ihe pn*ss seclion. And Ihe? Ihickoi Ihe* wall, Ihe highei tensile stienglh that you mu si have in Hie liber ihnf's disliibuled Ihioughoul lhal pipe. So Ihuxlyyou have lo have Ihe* higher point value liber.; which have- higher tensile sirnnylh and aie much moie buoynnl and porous will pass woicr through thorn.
Q. And Ihe I lorgol whal I was going lo ask you.
A. Dial's my line. Q. So we're in Ihe same boa!, huh? A. All light. Q. I'm going lo get my bearing hero.
MR. WAN: Are you okay? THE WITNESS: till hull. BY MR. VIEIRA: Q. Going back lo an earlier question, between '82 and '87, when do you think was the year in which or Ihe
66 68
(3 ) (2)
(3) (4) (5) (6)
CD (8) CD (10) (11) (12) (13) 114) (15) (16) (17) (18) (19) (20) (21) (22) (23) (24} (25)
A. Yes. Q. Now, 1 take it from what you've told us since
(3 ) (2)
the Calaveras was a pretty good liber, that especially in the later years if you could have got more -- and
(3) (4)
maybe you said this, you could have got more, you wou d (5)
have used more. A. Yes.
(6) (7)
Q. So 1 also take it that when you couldn't get
(8)
more, there would be a smaller percentage of Caiavera1 (9)
in a particular batch as opposed to what would have bei n DO)
if you had your way; is that true? A, Yes. Or we had to just arbitrarily take it out
of the blend completely because it just was too
(11) (12) (13)
intermittent. And we would wait until we could
(14)
accumulate enough tonnage so that we could have a
(15)
sustained run.
(16)
Q. One of the guys at CertainTeed told us the
(17)
other day that his recollection is that the Calaveras,
(18)
at least the 4T, had a pretty good point value. Is that
(19)
your recollection?
(20)
A, Yes, it did. 72 to 74.
(21)
Q. Was it also the case that pipe -- or strike
(22)
that.
(23)
Was it also the case that the water pipe
(24)
generally tended -- needed to be a stronger pipe than, (25)
jieak year lor use o! Calaveras `ihe;? A. Probably right al Hie oulsel. In '82 and '83,
we probably were using more Calaveras lhan we would be in 1987 because as Ihe live years lhal Ihe Chinese had the business, Ihe higher the problems were with the asbeslos exposure. And, therefore, the business kept going down and down and we kept having to shut machines down because the business wasn't there.
Q. Were, you aware as this whole dynamic was going on where the business was becoming more difficult to sustain because of Ihe health issues whether or not whether or not JM thought about converting to making a different type of water pipe, nonasbestos water pipe?
MR. WAH: ) got lots of objections on that. Speculative, compound, a few other things.
MR. VIEIRA: Let me withdraw it BY MR. VIEIRA:
Q. Were you aware of any discussion, let's say, in the '82 to `87 time frame regarding whether or not JM was thinking about converting to making another kind of water pipe?
A. I wasn't aware. Q. How long did Johns-Manville have this shop at Stockton where they were cutting pipe? In other words, you told me that I think one of the things that they did
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D. Wilkinson 8-25-07
II H f,<> fo '//)
7I
{ I ) ' for a certain period of yeais war; Ihey woultf lalk fo
{i)
f2) people about bow fo make cuts or minimize coin ami lit tf {)
( 5) happened in some serf of a liainimj facility.
(4
(5)
A. Yeah. Johns Manville had what Ihey called Ihe
(!)
(demo building right on talc.
()
(b) Q. All light,
(<0
{ V ) A. If was light behind the number one pipe
( /)
( h ) machine. It was a large building.
(if)
(>)) Q. Okay.
()
(10)
A. And it was just reseived for sales and the
( Hi)
(31) installation instructors to work with confraclois and
(11)
(.1 2 ) instructing them the proper way to boll pipe, propel way (12)
( ! 3) to make ciosuies and install valves. I hey had ihey
( l '>)
(34) had the whole building inside set up with makeshift
(14)
( l 5 ) set-ups dummied up so the contractors could see anti \. u! (1 5)
(.1 (>) hands on and the proper way to do a culling il it was
( 1 o)
(37) absolutely necessary. But we dissuaded the contractor ; (17)
(1 fi) by trying to impress on them that at (lie same price wo
(IB)
(3. 9) would allow three percent of whatever total footage they ( i 9)
(2 0 ) purchased to be 6'6"s, 3'3"s and 1 Bunch stubs so that
( ?())
(2 ! ) they could make their closures. And we would supply II e (21)
(2 2) MOAs also in a certain percentage without additional
( 22)
(23) cost. And we demonstrated that in the demo building. (3.3)
(24)
Q. Was that demo building still open in '87 when
(24)
(25) the plant finally shut down?
(25)
way loi ( Oiling pipe stuko lb,si Ihni folk:;, would i.ut pij.in will i a '.aw?
A. It it was abuolulely uiicrssaiy Hopeliilly uni nor.w.s.iiy
O. You don't have any under alanding mm way m another ubnul whether iuila. were culling pipe commonly willi power saw:, mil in the held, lei1', say, as ei' /o, is Dial accurate?
A. Boy, you would have lu show me when? il was necessary lha! much. I mean, you might have m io oi two in the dayliirio. But you wouldn't ho, as you jiisl said, culling pipe all Ihe time. I moan, Iheie's no need (or ii You had loo many closure pieces supplied by Jlv). And you hud prioi to lha! job going in, you trail specs and you had layouls. And any job ot consegunnoe I was awaie of, wo would make hake; oils on paper. And I would load liucks accordingly so Ural lhal Imck, our5, had a cedain amounl ol sheds, a cedain amount of fittings and a certain amount ol regular slandaul pipe on then? that could bo sluing jus! the way ihe layout drawings, Ihe lake-oils as they were called, wee; there. I mean, (here was jusl there was jus! loo much preparation made between a contractor and Johns--Manville on a job ot any consequence to say Ural there would leave lo be any cuttings. Something had lo go awry in the field big
7 0 72
(l ) (2) (3) (4) (5) ( 6) (7) (8) ( 9) (TO) (11) (12) (13) (14) (15) (16) (17} (18) (19) (20) (21) (22) .(23) (24) (25)
A. No. The Chinese converted that demo building
(3 ) time to cause any cuts fo be made. I just didn't see
to their own uses.
(2) it. I went out on many, many stringing jobs, and I
Q. When did they do that?
(3) never saw that.
A. As soon as they got in there. '82.
(4) Q. I take it that lliere wasn't a point in time at
Q. So at least up through - and when did the
(5) least after 1957 when you were actually a working
Chinese actually take possession?
(6) contractor out in the field; is that accurate?
A. January '82.
(7) A. I was a working contractor?
Q. So at least up through '81, that demo building (8 ) Q. |'m saying I don't think there was a -- there
was still actively used?
(9) wasn't a time after 1957 when you were a contractor
A. Yes.
(.10) working out in the field; is that right?
Q. And they had pipe cutting demonstrations in
(11 )
A. When I was a contractor?
there up through '81?
(12)
Q. Right.
A. No. I have to take that back. We had a major (13)
A. No.
strike right around '80, something like that. And that J (14)
MR. WAH: I was going - I'll object.
demo building was taken over by outside security guar ds(15) BY MR. VIEIRA:
that Johns-Manville brought in for the duration of the (16)
Q. So water pipe, I've been told that was
strike to protect the grounds because it got pretty
(17) Johns-Manvilie's bread and butter essentially during the
violent.
(18) 1960s and 1970s and continuing up into the 1980s. Is
Q. So was the demo building still up?
(19) that true at ieast from the standpoint of AC pipe
A. 79.
(20) manufacturing?
Q.So they were still gettingpipe-cutting
(21)
A. Sewer pipe was also major, Bureau of
demonstrations as of 79?
(22) Reclamation was major as much as water pipe.
A. Yes.
(23)
Q. Would you say that the primary product that was
Q. And one of the reasons they did that is because (24) sold by Johns-Manville at ieast up here at Stockton was
out in the field to your knowledge that was the standarr (25) AC water pipe?
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D. Wilkinson 8-25-07
17 (
7! I,. /(,)
7 3 7'.
(7) M)
(7) (t() (9) U f>) (.11) (17) (J7) ( :m ) (V-) (Hi) (I'M
(1 9) (20)
(2.1 ) (27)
(23) (24) (23)
A. Yes.
Q. And I lake it iha! because of Iho rtevirtopmunl
(7)
ai least that was going on in this dale during Iho '(>();;
( )
and '70s and continuing up into the '80s Ural you made ( 4 )
lot and sold a lot?
'.)
A. Yes,
(<>)
Q. And in terms of the inventory, you would
(7)
manufacture the stuff and it would go oul? In oilier
()
words, if would be made, it would be finished and didn't (7)
sit long; it actually went out fairly quickly in
(10)
general?
(H)
A. No.
Q. No?
(13)
A. We manufactured to inventory based on sales, (14)
Q. Well, was water pipe typically a special order
(i b)
product or was it a product that was just manuladurod ('!(>)
not special order?
(17)
A. Not special order.
(1 )
Q. And bow long, if you can tell us, did -- are
(1 9 )
you able to tell us whether or not a particular piece ot (20)
pipe sat in inventory?
(21)
A. Are you talking water pipe.*?
(2?)
Q. Water pipe.
(23)
A. Anywhere from thirty days to eight months.
(24)
Q. But no more than that?
(2b)
74
I HI;; Wn Nl S)>: II I mn oul of yn;>, I'll loll you because I won't bo talking very good,
MR, WAI I; I bon wo'ir going to have lu Tm?,.ik. (Break lakon.) BY MR, VII IRA: Q. Ready, Mi. Wilkinson? A. Yes. Q. I lave a chaneo lo rust a liille hi I? A. Yes. <0, I el mo know il you want to lake I Irusl you'll lot me know if you ward lo lake another break al any point in tinue won't you? A. I'm good lo go. Q. All right, in terms of lire lolal weight ol in terms ot lire lolal weight ol the asbestos in tiansife pipe manrilacluied al Slocklon, as I undeialand il, il would vary belween 10 and 70 porceni? A. Yes. Q. And Ural would - lypically will') Wirier pipe, because it needed lo be a stronger product, you would have a higher percentage ol asbestos in water pipe as you would generally compared with sewer pipe or irrigation pipe? A. Yes, Q. Typically for water pipe, would the percentage
76
{i) ( /) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10) (11) (12) (13) (14) (15) (16) (17) (18) (19) (20) (21) (22) (23) (24) (25)
A. I would say not. Q. And water pipe was continuously manufactured between '76 and '86, let's say? A. Yes. Q. And it was continually sold during that same time frame, correct? A. Yeah, basic water pipe, yeah. Q. Do you want to take a short break? A. No. Let's go ahead and finish it.
MR. WAH: Tony, I'm not trying to - when you say let's go ahead, how much longer before -
MS. LEE: How much longer do you have? MR. VIEIRA: I don't know. Maybe a half hour. MS. LEE: We should take a break because you might have some more. MR. VIEIRA: It's up to Mr. Wilkinson. MS. LEE: But I promised his wife. MR. VIEIRA: Whatever you guys want to do. If Mr. Wilkinson ~ MR. WAH: We're going to be here for a little while longer. So it's better to take a little break now, fifteen, twenty minutes maybe and then go throuj Or what do you want to do, Daryl? THE WITNESS: I'd just as soon get done. MR. WAH: But let Tony and I both know.
{7 ) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10) (11) (12) (13) (14) (15) (16) (17)
(18) (19) (20) (21) (22) (23) (24) (25)
of asbestos by weight tie right around the 20 percent mark?
A. Anywhere from 17 to 20. Q. Aside from the AT and the 5K, was there any other kind of Calaveras fiber that went into water pipe at Stockton? A. Not to my knowledge. I know that Calaveras had another fiber. But I think we tried it once and the division didn't pursue it anymore, and they just stuck with the 4T and the 5K. Q. Is it true that notices of deviation would expire either when they were replaced by another notice of deviation or explicitly cancelled or -- strike that. Let me ask it again. Let me ask it a different way.
My understanding is that there were three basic ways in which notices of deviation would expire; is that true?
A. Well, deviations were 90-day things that we used to get away from the standard blends when necessary. And that was quality and availability-
Q. I understand. A. - of other fibers. Q. All right. A. So you could run it out at 90 days, you could cancel it earlier if you alleviated the problem,
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D. Wilkinson 8-25-07
(1) (2) (3) (4)
(V) (1!) CD 0 0) (3 1 ) (1 7.) (.1 3 ) (I'D
(i 5)
(3 <>)
irn
(18) ( i >) (20) (21 ) (22) (23) (24 ) . (23)
77
original problem causing Ihe deviation, or you could
extend the deviation with an application to division to cd
go more Ilian 90 days.
(g
Q. So it a deviation was in Died, the way th.it
D)
that particular deviation would end in lei ms of its
spelling out what went into a pedicular type ol pipe,
(V)
it would be either by it being expired utter 5)0 (toys. A. Yes.
(D (B)
Q. That would be one way, ooireotV
r)
A. Yes.
( S 0)
Q. Or it could be simply replaced try another
DD
deviation. That would be another way; is that con not. ? f 13)
A. Yes.
( M)
Q. And those would be; the two ways I take it lion ( M )
what you just said that a deviation could be either
cancelled or replaced; is that coned?
( U>)
A. There was a third I said, wasn't there, too?
(17)
Q. Well, you tel! me because 1 don't want to put
(IB)
any words in your mouth. I staded out thinking thoie ( 1 9)
were three, and I took from your answer there was or ly (20)
two. A. No, no. There's three.
(2 :i)
(27)
Q. So let's go back and make sure we got it dear (23)
One way that a deviation would no longer be
(2 4)
operable -- let's use that terminology - is if it was7
(25)
78
30 (I v.<) < ;.<s 77 Jo l!U)
70
O.. I 'ipn m.ichiiK? liumbei one m.sdc Du inch lung pipe and 3 to 8 inch
A. I un lout luiig pipe. C), Pipe machine numhei uiiu mntlo km loot long pipe in 7 to 8 li id i (ii.imckm.;? A. V.-. Q. Pipe machine' nuinbui two mndo t.'Dnotdung pipe in 3 In 8 Inch diainctuis? A, Nn 3 to ll.), t hat's n misnomui Q. Pipe machine numbei thiee made 13 loot-turn.) pipe in (. (o 18 inch diameloeY A. 7. 1 inch. 1 fiat's a misnomei, too G. Pipe machine numbei Ilium made 13-loot long pipn? in 6 to 7 land) diameleo.;? A. it's 8 to 21. U. Ix-t me instate it again.
Pipe machine number Ihioo made Id-tool-long pipe in 8-inch to 21-inch tiinmetoe.:,?
A. Yos. G. And pipe machine numhei foui made 13--tool long pipe in 24 to /12 inch diometeis; is that coirecl? A. It could make 21 it it's absolutely necessary. But 7.4 is what we nomially stuck to. Q. Now, sometime in the spring of litis year it's my understanding that Mark Swanson asked you to take a
80
(2)
(3) M) (5) (6) (7) (B) (9) (10) (11) (12) (13) (14) (15) (16) (17) (18) (19) (20) (21) (22) I 2 3) (24) (25)
succeeded by a subsequent deviation, correct?
(3 )
A. Okay. Q. Is that right?
(2) (3)
A. Yeah. You could ~ you could apply for a
(4)
different type of deviation it that one didn't work. Q. Or that deviation could simply expire?
(5) (6)
A. At 90 days.
(7)
Q. Or I believe you said that deviation could
(B)
ultimately be extended.
(9)
A. Yes.
(10)
. Q. Would those be the three ways? A. As far as I know. Q. And in the event that a deviation either
(ID (12) (13)
expired -- right? Strike that. In the event that a deviation expired and
(14) (15)
wasn't either extended or followed immediately by
(16)
another deviation, you would have a reversion back to (17)
the divisionwide specification? A. The tender blended for that year.
(18) (19)
Q. There were four different pipe machines at
(20)
Stockton beginning in the 70s, correct?
(21)
A. And '60s.
(22)
Q. And the'60s. In the'60s, there were four
(23)
different pipe machines at Stockton? A. In the late '60s, number four came on-line.
(24) (25)
look at some divisionwide specifications and some Stockton deviations that dealt with the blends that were operative approximately between sometime in 1975 and sometime in 1981. Is that generally your recollection?
A. Yes. Q. And when he asked you to do that, my understanding is that you actually did take those documents from them - from him and actually looked at those documents. A. Yeah, I spent quite a few hours on them. Q. Had you ever, at least in recent years prior to that time, looked through those divisionwide specs and the Stockton deviations? A. Had ! prior to him showing them to me? Q. Right. A. No. Q. And my understanding -- and I'm looking at a declaration now, and I just want to make sure I have an appropriate or an accurate understanding of what documents you looked at. It might even be helpful if you turned to page 5 in that declaration that we'll mark as Plaintiffs 1 to this deposition. Page 5. Let me know when you get there. A. Is that item nine? Q. Well, we're going to look at item ten.
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D. Wilkinson 8-25-07
{).'?.*)* HI
M.) )
U S HT
(I)
(1) H>
{<>) (V)
(0) !')) (10) (n} (!2) (1-0 O4) (i )
(1 6)
(yn
(1 8 )
(! 0) (20) (21 ) (22) (22) (24 ) (2 5)
A. Mem Ion.
(i )
Q. Yeah. So basically what I lake fiom thi:>
(2)
declaration - I believe Ibis ir. youi decimation signed
( 5)
in July 20th of 2007, light?
(D
A. Yes.
r>)
Q. I take it from this decimation that the
(M
documents that Mi. Swanson gave you lo look at that you
(n
did, as you say, spend a lot oi lime looking at are tin;
<H)
documents that weie numbered M l STOCK-000001 Ihiou ;.)h cm
000032 and Ml STOCK OOO H.3 through 000232 and
(10}
CRMC-PHH-004841 thiouyh 004828. You looked al all ol ! i l )
those documents trial wore encompassed within the numb ?ISO 2)
I just gave you, coned?
(ID
A. Yes.
(M)
Q. Now, I want to hand you what I'm going to maik
(1`*)
as Plaintiffs' 2. Just take a quick look at that, and
( I 5)
I'll ask you just some general questions about it.
(IV)
(Plaintiff's Exhibit Nos. 1 and 2 marked tor
( Mi)
Identification.)
(19)
BY MR. VIEIRA:
(20)
Q. Do those look familiar at all?
A. Yeah.
(22)
Q. What are they just generally?
(2 5)
A. Those are blends and deviations throughout the
(24)
years.
(25)
A. i s|i, they wen;- my I iiblo. O. I've aelually used that terminology bolero with lequids to those believe it m not To I didn't know il I was the only one Ural did oi not Bul when yon say they won - yoi.li "Bible," am you saying that il you would gel a divisionwide spec, il was youi job lo make sure limy wen - iinplemenledV A, Absolutely. Q. Bo oven il then? was somebody up al headquarters that was Cia/y and a pedicular blend wasn't going lo work, il was youi obligation lo institute it? A, Yes. Q. I also trike il Ihat il them was a pioblem with eiliiei quality oi some older asped ot a divisionwide blend that you might make a call to headquailors and say "Hey, this isn't working. Wo need to institute a deviation"? A. Yes. Q. I lint's yeneiaily how deviations came about? A. Thai is. U. And what I would like to do is I'm going to show you just a couple documents here - maybe more than a couple, but hopefully not too many more than a couple. And I'll actually jusl give you the document instead of
84
n) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6)
(V)
(8) (9) (10) (11) (12) (13) (14) (15) (16) (17) (18) (19) (20) (21) (22) (23) (24) (25)
Q. Stuff from Ihe old days?
(I)
A. Yeah. Forty years ago recall.
(2 )
Q. In that collection of documents that we marked
(3)
as Plaintiffs 2, there's both divisionwide specs and
(4)
Stockton deviations, right?
(5)
A. Yes.
(6)
Q. Does that look like the set of documents that
(7 )
Mr. Swanson gave you to look at earlier this spring?
(8)
A. Yes. Do you want these back?
(9)
Q. You can hold onto them for now.
(10)
Those documents, at least - let's start with
(11)
the divisionwide specs. What were you doing when you (12)
would have become familiar with using those documents n (13)
your work at JM Stockton?
(14)
MR. WAH: HI object that it's vague and ambiguous. But you can answer.
(15) (16)
THE WITNESS: What was I doing when I had to
(17)
use those documents?
(18)
BY MR. VIEIRA:
(19)
Q. I'm assuming that the divisionwide specs, you
(20)
used them?
(21)
A. Oh, absolutely.
(22)
Q. All right. And what were you doing when you
(23)
would use the divisionwide specs? I guess what use wen 2 (24)
they to you in your job?
(25)
having you find if. Aelually, lei me hand this io Doug. MR. WAH: At! right. Just give me a number or
something. BY MR. VIEIRA:
Q. So you can keep that, Mr. Wilkinson. So what we're going lo look at would be Ihe
document that's Bates numbered MT-STOCK-OOOI92. Mark, if you could find that forme. It's 192.
BY MR. VIEIRA: Q. I'm going to hand you that. Tell us what that
is. MR. WAH: Hold on one second. Three zeroes
192. MR. VIEIRA: It's a deviation units 192. MR. WAH: I'll just look over his shoulder.
BY MR. VIEIRA: Q. So any rate, ! know we all know it, but that's
a deviation? A. Yes. Q. It's a Stockton deviation? A. Yes. Q. And I see a signature at the lower right-hand
corner. Do you recognize that signature? A. Yes. That's mine. Q. Can you tell me a little bit about that man
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D. Wilkinson 8-25-07
Hb i.o isii)
H'. H7
(1) (;- ) ( 5} (1) ('>) (<>) (v) DO ( o) (10) [ID (l2) (i J ) (1 4 )
(:i 6 j (17) (:iu) (HD (20) (21) (22) (?3) (24) (2 5)
' liiat made Ilia! signature;? I'm kidding. Wilhdiuwn
(U
On flie left side, Iheie's a line for quality
control supervisor.
(.<)
A. Yeah. Torn Decker.
(4)
Q. And you recognize that as Mr. Deckel's
C>)
A. Signature.
(M
Q. -- mark?
(V)
A. Yes.
()
Q. Would he have been essentially in the saint
CM
position as Hal Kaien would have been A. Yes.
( I 0} on
Q. - around the same lime frame? A. Exactly the same.
( 1 2) ( Hi)
Q. So not only did the production guys have to
(14)
sign this as you did as production superintendent, but
(l ie quality control folks also had to sign off on the document?
A. Yes.
(1 f>) (-17) (Iti)
Q. Now
(! 9)
MR. WAH: Tony, just off record.
(20)
MR. VIEIRA: Yeah.
(21 )
(Pause in the proceedings.)
(22)
BY MR. VIEIRA:
(23)
Q. Now, why don't you hand me that back because (24) I'm going to give you another one now. I want to sho[v (25)
A. I h.il`n my Ugiiuium U, All light. I hunk you
In !oim:> ui tln! Stockton doVliiilunV. ih;il Ml. (wan:.on gave you ouitioi, nod I holiovu Ihoy'io tholiiilod within MniniilfD 7, did you r;ign oil on nil ol those deviations; do you know?
A. As tm as I know, yunh. Q. I! would ho o.uslomuiy loi you to sign oil on the deviations!' A. Yon, !localise I initialed Ihoin. 0. Whnl does Dial mean''1 A. Well, I'm the one that's the cause ol them. O. do whalovei Ihe mason was, if Ihete was a mason lo initiate a deviation, you would have been Ihe guy that did Hint initiation? A. Did that initiation, yes. (3. If i could have just a moment.
I want to show you a standaid blond. Amt give me just a moment hem. I wan! you to turn lo let me actually give you the document here. I'll lake that back from you, Plaintilfs 2, and I'll find this document for you.
I want to have you look in Plaintilfs 2, a document M f-STOCK00002,':). I ha!1:; a manufacturing spec, light?
8 6 88
(1 ) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10) (11) (12) (13) (14) (15) (16) (17) (18) (19) (20) (21) (22) (23) (24) (25)
you document 193. That's another Stockton deviation, right?
A. Yes. Q. And once again, your signature is in the lower right-hand corner of it? A. Yes. Q. And if youcould handthat back to me.
If we take a look at that declaration we were referring to earlier, the July 20th declaration
A. Uh-huh. Q. -- that we've marked as Plaintiffs 1, the back page there we've got another Daryl Wilkinson signature right? A. Yes. Q. Then I want toshow youanother Stockton deviation. And that is Bates number MT-STOCK-OOOIS Whose signature or initials is that in the lower right-hand comer there? A. Mine. Q. Sometimes you signed it in full andsometimes you just initialed? A. Yes. Q. And I want toshow you the document that's MT-STOCK-000195. Who is initialed off in the lower right-hand corner there?
('! ) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8} (9) (10) (11) (12) (13) (14) (15) (16) (17) (18) (19) (20) (21) (22) (23) (24) (25)
MR. WAH: Wait, a minute. Slow down a minute. Four zeroes and 25?
MR. VIEIRA: Yeah. BY MR. VIEIRA:
Q. Mr. Wilkinson, when you're ready to talk about that.
A. Yeah. Go ahead. Q. So that's a standard blend, correct? A. For the year 1977. Q. And we'll get to that.
What was the operative date of this standard biend? More specifically was it 2-24-1977? Are you able to tell us?
A. No. It should have started 1 January. The issue date is February 24th, 77, but the blend went in effect the 1 st of January. It was probably initiated in November of 76.
Q. So correct me if I'm wrong, but that means as of November of 76 the blends that are spelled out on this page would have - absent a deviation, they would have been operative?
A. As of the 1st of January. Q. So if we look at this divisionwide specification at Stockton, does this tel! us whether or not in water pipe 6-inch 200 and 8-inch through 16-inch
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D. Wilkinson 8-25-07
2.3 (!.\ i (.) i -r; 119 1 ,up)
I) 9 9!
(U ' all classes, there was Calaveias libm?
(i )
(9) A. Yeah: One bag,
(2)
O) Q. So ten percent Calaveras?
( 1)
()) A. Yes.
(4)
('>) Q. Now, do you know, as, you oil hcio, when the
('>)
( o) next standard blend was issued Ihal addressed wnlei pip : (<)
{ /) manutaclurod a! Slocklon ol this st/e?
( /)
(ft) A. Unless 1 go through these papois, I don'l know
(ft)
( 9) when. But it should have been issued lot '70.
(')
(hi)
Q. Was it always the case that thoio was a new
(HU
(31) divisionwide specification every year once a yoai V
(M)
(12 )
A. If none was issued, the prior one was still in
( 3 2)
(t ') effect. So the standard could tun lot two, llnoe yeais
(13)
(3 4) il it was a good running blend. And it would be
(14)
(3 5) understood.
(1 '>)
(36)
Q. If there was a subsequent deviation lhat lapsed
(3 6)
(3 v ) in between the time of this standard blend and the noxl
(.17)
(l ft ) standard blend, the formula would - the formula in use
(1ft)
(19) would be this standard blend?
(3 9)
2-0) a. Yes.
(20)
(23)
Q. The standard blends that aie - the documents
(21)
(22) that are the standard blends in Plainlilfs 2 that you
(22)
(23) got a chance to look at earlier in the spring, are those
(2 3)
(2 4) all documents that would come to you or came to you from (24)
(25) division headquarters at Johns-Manviile?
(2 5)
wumi'I u common thing Mo;;! common was it IIx.mu was an I'-Mii- that !ii) hi`tI In lx? additx/a'd luguiding IiI.hm supply ot quality o! piodui.l, yuij'to- Ihn om? that would lypioally initiate the davialion?
A, Yus U. But in this oast- tin sumo mason, you'll? able to toll by looking ;il il lhat II wan hoadquaiiuin that initiated ti n? deviation? A, Right. 0, And it says "OIIO" that's division hendquadem "din-clod a tiial tun using Calaveias tinlnial nmoiliCus libel"; is ihal collect? A. Yes Q. I o yout knowledge, is this the Inst point at which Stockton began pulling Calaveras liber in the water pipe manulaeiurod at Stockton? A. Yes, March 76. Q. And I believe you said you aclualiy liked the pedoimanco ol the Calaveras libel. A. Yes, Q. Now, it we take a look al this deviation, it tells us that there weie there was 19 19.8 percent of the asbestos in the Irlend was Calaveras A'i\ coned? A. Yes, Q. So instead ol this being one bag in a batch,
90 92
;i) (2) ..(3) (4) (5) (6) (7 ) (8) (9) {10) (11) (12) (13) (14) (15) (16) (17) (18) (19) (20) (21) (22) (23) (24) (25)
A. Yes.
(1 )
Q. And those standardblends, once again, wore
(2)
what you used to figure out if there wasn't a deviation
(3)
what needed to go into a particular type of water pipe
(4)
manufactured during a particular point in time?
(5)
A. Yes.
(6)
Q. Now what I wouldlike to do is to - actually,
(7)
I'm going to show you a deviation and ask you some
(8)
similar questions about it. Let me locate it here. If
(9)
you could hand that over to me, I'll actually find the
(10)
document for you. Thank you, sir.-
(11)
I'm going to turn to a document Bates stamp
(12)
number MT-STOCK-000229.
(13)
MR. WAH: Wait a minute. 000229. Okay.
(14)
MR. VIEIRA: Right. Actually, 227.
(15)
BY MR. VIEIRA:
(16)
Q. The document there, number 227, that's a notice (17)
of deviation from Stockton, right?
(18)
A. Yeah.
(19)
Q. And onceagain, you've initialed that document (20)
in the lower right-hand corner?
(21)
A. Yes. This was an isolated instance where I did (22)
not initiate this deviation. Division headquarters
(23)
initiated this.
(24)
Q. Was that --I think you're saying that that
(25)
this would have been (wo bags in a batch? A. Yes. Q. Who was C.B. Alien? We see il says "Authority"
at the stop there. A. Yes. Q. Who is that? A. That's Clarence Allen, division headquarters.
My boss. Q. Do you know whether or not after the time this
deviation - strike that. Back up. When did this deviation become operative?
A. We did this one right - I think in March of 76.
Q. March 23rd of 76? A. Yes, sir. Q. That's the date issued? it's the date it becomes operative? A. Yeah, this one. Because we didn't have any issues forcing - in other words, there was no time constraints. Q. And the date issued doesn't mean that that's the notice-look at the document. Down in the lower right-hand corner it says "date issued." A. lih-huh. Q. You said that was when the blend became
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D. Wilkinson 8-25-07
74 (1 ci`J V 4 1 to Ofi)
(1) (D (0 ('!)
<D (n 00 00
(i o)
on < i ?)
o-n
(14) <u>) 06) f1 7) OH) (] 7) (20) (20 (22) (23) (24) (22)
O) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10) UD (12) (13) (14) (15) (16) (17) (18) (19) (20) (21) (22) (23) (24) (25)
operative, right?
A. Yc.v.ih, in this case.
Q. In this case.
sn
And above that it snys" I hi:; notion of
(4)
deviation cancelled by notice ol mluin dated " ) hat n:
lett blank, correct? In other word;:., them's no (tale
00
tor that?
A. What does this say?
00
Q. Just above the "dale issued" line,
MR. WAN: Let me point it, to him. Right there. That's blank. That square is blank,
THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. BY MR. VIEIRA:
(10)
on
(17)
Q. Is that correct? There's no dale them, in
(O)
other words, for that? No date tor Ihe notice? ol
deviation cancelled by nolice ol return?
A. Right.
(17)
Q. Do you know whether or not there was any period ( 1 H )
ol time alter March 23rd ol 76 up Ihrough March ol 196 ! when water pipe between, let's say, A and 12 inches
( 1 9)
(?()}
manufactured at Stockton did not have some percentage of (71)
Calaveras fiber?
MR. WAH: Objection. Go ahead. You can
(23)
answer. THE WITNESS: The deviations that I was shown
(24) (25)
94
indicate that there was Calaveras.
(i )
BY MR. VIEIRA:
(2)
Q. in all of it? In ail the water pipe?
(3)
A. I'm not sure that that's all the deviations.
l4)
Q. I know. We'li get to that.
But you would acknowledge that the deviations
(6)
that Mr. Swanson gave you, the deviations you've been (7)
shown that pertain to the time period March of 76 -
(8)
let's say January of 76 i think you told us up through
(9)
March of '81 in the water pipe four to twelve inches in (10)
diameter, we'll limit it to that, manufactured at Stockton, all of it contained some percentage of
(ID (12)
Calaveras fiber?
(13)
A. Yes.
(14)
Q. In terms of the percentage of Calaveras in that (15)
water pipe during that time frame, would you agree tha't (16)
it would vary between 7.8 percent and 29.7 percent? (17)
A. There was fiber used between those percentages (18)
yeah.
(19)
Q. That is your recollection as to the general
(20)
range of how much - what percentage of the asbesto (21)
fiber was made up by Calaveras fiber?
(22)
A. Yes.
(23)
Q. Now, as you looked through the documents, thej (24)
deviations that Mr. Swanson gave you and the
(25)
inunuLtcluunq specs, did il appmi to you that Iheie weir; nny documents poibiining to Ur? lime peiind M.iicli ol 76 lltioiigh oi lei's say Januaiy ol I (jut-.?. j| would he 7G? Is that the dale, the initial dale? Jaimaiy ol 76 Ihumgh Maid) ol '81, did il appo.u lo you that them worn any missing deviations oi divisiuliwido epees?
MR. WAH: Objection. Go ahead. THE WITNESS: In my own mind, yes. BY MIT VIEIRA: Q, Why is that? A. As I discussed with Maik Swanson at the lime, I w.is ol Ihe opinion based on my fccolleciioii Dial wo had intennitlnnl use ol Calaveras during those years. O, All right. A. And evoiylhinq that he could itig up in Ihe depositories up in Denver showed that I was in enoi and that tlie - that there was Gnlaveias used in all these. 1 still, in my mind, am not yon know, ho and I wont tbiough these? standard blends. And I just -1 don't know. I still have a feeling that there was one or fwo standaid blends that weren't shown. But I am the last peison that should do that because I know Hint if there's no standaid blends shown lor a year that you continue lo use the prior standard blend.
96
Q. Right. A. But I just don't think that Maggie was given all Hie deviations that were used. That's just my opinion. Q. When was the most recent - strike that.
Prior to the time that Mr. Swanson gave you the specs and the deviations that lie gave you this spring, how long had it been since you saw even the most recent deviation, let's say, the ones in 1981?
A. 1981. Q. All right. All right. So 25-pius years? A Yes. Q. Can you point to any gaps in any of the documents, in any of the specs or the deviations in particular that Mr. Swanson gave you back in the spring? A Well, you know, the numbers don't run one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. They're scattered ail around. And the way deviations are numbered by division is a total mystery to me. And 1 told Mark that at the time. I couldn't account for how they were numbered, why they weren't numerical. And I just - I don't know. I just have a feeling. I just don't remember using Calaveras all the time. But here again, I mentioned to Mark that in my mind from '82 to '87 was really intermittent use of Calaveras. And with that
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D. Wilkinson 8-25-07
'? \.t 101)) u7 up
( 2) { i) (4) CM ((>)
(V)
<H> CM (30) (ID (.] :>) MU
(I'D
(1 5)
(:i o) (I'M
(:t 8)
(I'M (20) (21) (22) (23) (24 ) (25)
many yeais gone lay. I may bn, you know, mixing upi IIkim i J )
live yuaio will) Ihouo six yeut:.
< ')
Q. So I lake i!
(U
A. I don't honestly know, bill I jm.l have I he
<4)
feeling that llioie was mom deviations Ilian Dial because ()
I jus! remember nol using Caiavom:. all Ihe time in
( o)
those years. Bui, you know, Ihai's jusl ray ojiinion
(7i
Q. I understand.
BO
Are you able lo ideniily any gaps in lomts ol
I'')
time peiiods Dial aren't eovi-md either by deviations
(in)
ihal we have in Plaintiff's 7 ni specifications?
(M)
A. You know, il I wen; able lo do Ihal, I would
( i 3)
have lo have access to Hie deviations I Ihink are
MU
missing. You know, dovialions come and go and come a id ( i 4)
go. There's lime periods whore them was no deviations. ( i 5)
Bui were there? I'm nol sure.
(i <>)
Q. You don't know one way or the othei?
(i M
A. But what slicks in my mind, Tony, is Ihal from
(18)
1979 lo 1981 there was a big turnover ol people a! Ihe
( i `U
division level because Ibey knew they were gelling oul
(? <>)
of Ihe business and they knew Ihal Ihe division was
(7 !)
going lo be eliminated, and Ihey were sealieriny trying
(72)
lo find jobs in other divisions or other companies. And
(23)
i know that there was a lot of mishandling of documents, (24 )
a lot of omissions on the plant pails, and there were
(2.3)
i;l Ih.if intmmiltmil urn, you say it may. in |,k p |>e Ihiil you'll.- (.untuning Hint inleimilleii! tit.u in tin: '82 II tiough '8/ llmo period with win it happened m the eaillnl limn polled?
A. Yoult I slated Ih.if to Maik when wo worn discussing ft if;, dot Illation
Q. t unrinn.hini.k MIT WAH: Objection, MR. VlklRA: That'!:; fairminuyh.
BY MR. VIEIRA: Q. I ho nolii'o1'. ol deviations Hint wo sc*o in
I `lainttH's ?, can yon loll us just gonuinlly how tlioy won? oiontori? You i.nul yon inilmtori thorn. But wli.il was the slop-by--slop pieces*, allot you idontiliori fho/o was a ptoblcm with Hie blend?
A. Noimatly the step-by-step pmcess would be stale yom case, division would loviow il, and il it made sense and it they saw that it was a nocossaiy thing, Ihey would ngiee to the deviation and they would tell you to implement it. If time was ol the essence, you would implement it immediately by phone ot memo and II io deviation written would come along later. That's why yon used lo have a big change in the original issuance of Ihe deviation and the time that the official document was issued.
98 100
(3) (4) (5) (0) (7) (8) (9) (10)
(11) (12)
(13) U4) (15) (16)
(17) (18)
(19) (20) (21) (22) (23) (24) (25)
plant people that were that were getting out at the
(1)
levels. And so that's why it just reinforces my
(2)
thinking that there were times that paperwor k just
(3)
didn't flow like it should have, and Maggie wasn't given
(4 )
all the documents that she should have had.
( 8)
Q. All right. But you don't know whether or not
(6)
that's the case here?
CM
A. That's true.
(8)
Q. And in terms of the specifications and the
(9)
deviation that we do have from the JM repository, you
(10)
would acknowledge that at least beginning in January of (11 )
'76 and up through March of '81, all the water pipe 4 to
(12)
12 inches manufactured at Stockton had some percentage , (13)
varied, but some percentage of Calaveras fiber?
(14)
MR. WAH: Objection. You can answer.
(15)
THE WITNESS: Yes, or I wouldn't have signed
(16)
the declaration.
(17)
BY MR. VIEIRA:
(18)
Q. I understand that. I understand that.
(19)
I think you were also telling us that in the
(20)
time period after that, let's say, '82 through `87,
(21)
there were intermittent periods where you couldn't get
(22)
Calaveras fiber.
(23)
A. That's right.
12 4}
Q. And I think you've acknowledged that in terms
(25)
Q. So, for instance, you could have a date of deviation - and let's actually look at Ihe document you've got in front ot you which I believe is 227.
A. Yes. Q. Lower right-hand corner the date of deviation at the top in this left-hand - top left-hand side there, what does that mean? It says "date of deviation 3-23-77." A. That's the date they issued it and i was to implement it. Q. And then the date that you actually implemented it would have been the date issued on the bottom? A. Yes, in this case because time was not of the essence because it was a planned thing. Q. Well, let me ask you this: The date of deviation at the top, is that when it went into effect, when it was actually the document that prescribed what was going into a particular blend, or was it the date of issue at the bottom that prescribed A. Usually the one at the top. Q. And the date of issuance was just the date of creation of this document? A. That's right. Q. i got you.
Who actually input this information into the
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D. Wilkinson 8-25-07
Vi, 101 )0/j)
11) I (I >
{ i ) ' deviations that we see in this CiotJdon deviations fli.il
(t)
(2) we see in Plaintiffs 2? Was it you flial wrote that in,
(?)
{ J ) or did a clerk do that, or I low did fhnf woik?
I ;)
(1} A. No. i his was wiiitcm by either Cla/once 01
(4)
{5) Danny Nolan, Clarence Allen 01 Danny Nolan al divisii i) CD
(<>) lieadquaileis
(c)
(7 ) Q. So they would actually f >iit the infounation in
( /)
(a ) the deviation?
(it)
CD A. Yes.
(')
(:i 0 )
Q. So ilwas either C Id.Allen that actually hand
(10)
(C!) Mole the inlormalion intoflicdeviation, light?
(if)
Cl?)
A. Yes.
(CD
(1 3 )
Q. Or did you say Danny?
(iD
(14)
A. Dan Nolan.
(Cl)
(!l 5)
Q. Was he also at division headquarters?
(CO
(,lr)
A. Yes.
( i <0
(.1 7 )
Q. And that was generally how this document or
(17)
(.1 8 ) those guys generally were one of the two guys who, let's (CD
(19) say, during the 76 to `81 time period wen.1 1a1ctually
(CD
(2 0) inputting this information?
( 20 )
(2.1 )
A. Yes, based on what I told them.
(21 )
(22)
Q. Can you give us a led tor, lot's say, in tlx;
(22)
(28) time period alter the deviations and the divisionwide
(2 3 )
(24) specs that we have, let's say, in Hie lime that we have (2 4)
(25) here as Plaintiffs 2, that is, the time frame after
(2 8)
Q, < nmjMl.ihlr -' A, because the Jelliey qioen />'//-1 point value wu equal lo the Caluveias -11, which is lire /?//] point value also I hey troll) had siimlai Idr-ilr slieiigth, -imif.il buoyancy, (|iialily and poioiisness <4, Aside Irom those, tensile slienqth, buoyancy quality and poioinau-ss. weie there any ollu-i factum lhal you would lake info account in judging Hie quality of.) pedicular libel? A. Cleanliness. 0. What's that? A. Cleanliness. Q, Anything else? A, No. Q. Now, I'm looking at youi declaration of July 20th again. And one ol the things it talks about is some ol youi testimony in the pas! on beliall of Calaveias Asbestos wheie you testified ilia! the use of Calaveras asbestos was intern lillent and inconsistent duiing Hie '76 to '81 time fiame, Do you recall that? A. Yes. Q. Do you know just generally how many times that you've actually testified to that either in a deposition or at. trial? And if you miss it try a little hit, it's not a big deal. I'm just trying to get your general
102
104
(1) (2) (3) (4) (5) {6) (7) (8) (9) (10) (11) (12) (13) (14) (15) (IS) (17) (18) (19) (20) (21) (22) (23) (24) (25)
'81, how often the water pipe at Stockton 4 to 12 inches (.1)
would contain Calaveras fiber?
(?)
A. After 1981?
(3)
Q. Yeah, after the documents we have here. So
(4}
let's say after '81. You said there was even more
(5)
Calaveras fiber used i believe up to a certain point of
(6)
time. Maybe'83,'84.
{7)
A. Yeah.
(8 )
Q. I don't know when it was.
(9)
A. Right.
(30)
Q. So let me withdraw that question and ask you
(11)
whatmay be a better question.
(12)
Was it true that in that '82, '83, '84 time
(13)
period that Calaveras fiber, having that better point
(14)
value, having that good point value, was a fiber that
(15)
you wanted to be able to use in the water pipe?
(16)
A. Yes.
(17)
Q. So if you had it available, you would use it in
(18)
the water pipe?
(19)
A. Yes.
(20)
Q. Was the Calaveras 41 superior to, let's say,
(21)
anyofthe Cassiarfiber?
(22)
A. No.
(23)
Q. What about the Jeffrey fiber?
(24)
A. Comparable.
(25)
feel for lhal. A. Maybe two times. Q. Prior to the time you testified in Ihose two
times, or let's say that's an approximation, had you had an opportunity to actually look at either the manufacturing specs or the divisionwide or the deviations from Stockton? Is that a bad question?
A. No. Had I had Q. Yeah. A. - any opportunity to see the deviations or anything? Q. Yeah.
A. Only at the time that they actually happened back in the 70s.
Q. So twenty-some-odd years before? A. Yeah. Q. So in those coupletimes of prior testimony, you were basically just going by memory? A. Yes. Q. I want to read to you just that paragraph 12 in that declaration just to find out if you agree with what it says. So it's on the last page there, page 7. So if you could turn to that.
Are you ready? Paragraph 12 says the following: "in the past, i have testified on behalf of
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D. Wilkinson 8-25-07
'7 (l\,u. 1U7 1m IlHi)
0
'1)
cn
(11) (7) CIO)
(J I.)
(3 X)
{.1 -J) (34) ( 3 '>)
(:i h)
cm
(:i)
(17) (20) (23 ) (27) (27) (24) (2b)
(2) (3) (4) (3) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10) (13.) (12) (13) (14) (15) (16) (17) (18) (IS) (20) (21) (22) (23) (24) (25)
IV,
(1)
was intermittent and inconsistent at the JM Sloeklon
(7)
plant during the 1976/1981 time period, and that Hie
(O
only way a person could determine if JM tiansile pipe
(4 )
manufactured during that period ol lime eonlained
eu
asbestos was to dig up a piece of pipe and find out the
(6)
asbestos blend number and see il that particular blond
< /)
contained Calaveras asbestos. Upon review of Hie
on
standard asbestos blends and notices of deviations, I
(?)
believe that my prior testimony summarized above was UO)
mistaken, and I would not give that testimony today wei ,i (n )
I able to appear at deposition or trial." Is what you
(1?)
state there in paragraph 12 an accurate statement ol
(13)
what you believe as you sit her e today?
(14)
MR. WAH: Objection. You can answer'.
(1 5)
BY MR. VIEIRA:
(HU
Q. Ultimately is there anything inaccurate about
(17)
it? (3 8 )
' A. Well, I believe you still would have to dig up
(19)
a piece of pipe to find out just exactly what was done
(20)
because, you know, prior -- if I could?
(21 )
Q. Please. Go ahead.
(22)
A. Prior to mention - I told I mentioned 1o
(23)
Doug that the forming department records state the filer id (24)
number and -- I mean the blend type that was used and (25)
106
everything. But when a pipe goes down to the finishing
end, that pipe is tested, unitized and shipped out if it
(2)
passes. If it doesn't pass, there's a possibility that
(3)
that pipe had to go back, be recured again so that we
(4)
could increase the strength possibly with the steam
(5)
pressure --
(6)
Q. Right.
(7)
A. - and with cure and come back again. And if
(8)
it still didn't pass, we may have to blot out that
(9)
stencil and restencil it to some other product. And if
(10)
that was so, everything changes. The whole ball game (ID
changes. Or if the pipe broke in a flex tester, a 6- or
(12)
8-inch diameter piece of pipe, for example, you might (13)
take and make half lengths, quarter lengths out of it.
(14)
And you might be having that in the ground, add a
(15)
different class than - you know, things change all
(16)
around, and you just never know what you have in the (17)
ground. And I just believe myself that if you don't dig
(18)
up the pipe and see exactly what the hell it is, you're
(19)
not going to really know what it is.
(20)
Q. If you wanted to know not what a particular
(21)
piece of pipe contained but what was manufactured at (22)
Stockton during the certain time frame, the way you
(23)
would know or if you wanted to know what sort of a blend (24)
went into pipe manufactured at Stockton during a certai i (25)
1 07
lime lianio, vvli.il yon would do is you would look a! oilhor ihu stand.iid ble ids ilasland.ml blend was in Hied or o deviation ii. i deviation was in ( fleet
MR. WAH: Objei. lion. BY MR'. VIEIRA:
Q. coned? A. On papoi, yeah. Q. All fight. Andgi neially il war; Ihe c iso tli.il llio pipe? you manuladi led, a high peiCen age ol Ihe pipt that was maniilacluiod was sold, coned? A Yes. Q. Whal poi coning j oi pipe was them (hat you maniiladured whom Hi Me was adually a allure and il didn't go oul lor sale? A. 1 don'l 11 link you ;ould pul a numfiei Yon would have yon know, you would deal - you would be dealing with a padicula inn of pipe that pc ssibly would tail and declass ; ind go lo somethin ! else. And the percentages (hen d )ii'l apply only !o 111 it pailiculai run of pipe. Overall your number would come up, and il doesn't apply to whal 1 \was saying. Q. What it we're jus bilking about wale r pipe A to 12 indies in diamete manufactured between '76 and '81; whal percentage of the pipe that was r lanutaelured wouldn't Lie sold becau: e there was some aiiure or some
108
defect? A. Up to fwo percent. Q. -So 98 percent of flint during that time frame
which was manufactured was also sold? A. Yes. Q. So if we wanted to know the biend that was in
that 98 percent that was sold for a particular time frame, all we'd have to do is look at either the standard blend if that was in effect or the deviation if the deviation was in effect?
A. if those deviations were complete, MR. WAH: I'll object. But go ahead. THE WITNESS: That was my whole point before.
BY MR. VIEIRA: Q. I understand. And that's fair, and I
appreciate that. What I would like to do if it's okay with you
is just take a short break. I don't have much more if I have anything more. Actually, I'd like to have a little conversation with Mr. Swanson.
A. Sure. Q. Then well come back and let you know if I've got anything else. And these guys can finish up. Hopefully we're at the end. I appreciate your time.
(Break taken.)
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D. Wilkinson 8-25-07
1 On
2U } o'> I... ) ;i :/) . .
)1)
( ! ) BY MR. VIEIRA:
! * ) do ,-il any into, the find Hint? whim you
{2) Q. The only additional thing I wanted lo do still
( 7 ) .H.ltinlly lalki'd to, would il hi? Ml Wall lh.il you bilked
( i) on that declaration, and il you could look of page 3
( <} lo whim you cnnludt'd Ihoii ImnV
( 4 ) On item number four i! says
H) A. I lalkodlo lUihatu.
(3) MR. WAH: It's right over here. I hat's, if,
(5) Q, And Hath.ua is Mi. Wall's pamlegalV
U>) BY MR. VIEIRA:
(',) A. Vos
(n Q. Theieweyo. Then? nl flu- lop il says
J (n
O, Go Hie lied lime you had bilked lo anybody
00 "Asbestos cement pipe munubicluied at Iho GtucMon J
(H ) lioni lltuli linn uboul Ihis case would have heen sometime
to Old)
j.)lanl was the only ,JM asbestos cement j dpo that was
co
distributed throughout California hum Ihu ((logon bonio (10)
in llu.' spiing of this, yum? A. Oh, yeah. I nevei know about il until a low
OH) fo the nodhern boundaiy ol Hakn-.tiHd and
( M ) weeks ago.
(3 ) l...os Angeles." Is that accurate?
() ;>)
Q. Ho Horn that point in lime up lo now, has
(13)
A. Yeah. Well, Oregon border. We had Waslunglo i (13) anybody fioui Ihcii linn given yon any lunnubicluiing
(14) and Alaska, too.
(14) :;)}<?(.;, or deviation!; beyond Iho onm; lliul Mark Swanson
(:ih)
Q. All rigid.
(ih) gave lo you buck in Iho spring?
(1 f))
A. That's my I gave.
(lb)
MR*. WAIT Objection.
(.17)
Q. I think you may be right them. And maybe wo
(17)
THE WITNESS: No,
(.1 8 ) weren't concerned about Washington and Alaska, Bill fel (Hi) BY MR. VII IRA:
(:i 9 ) me restate il just lo see - - just fo make suie I've
(19)
Q. Nobody lias given you any manulacluiing specs,
(20) encompassed everything (hat you've just told us.
(20) riglil, Horn Ihoii fmn?
( 21 )
"Asbestos cement pipe manuiaefuied ;if the
(2 1) A. (Wilness shakes head.)
(22 ) Stockton JM plant was the only JM asbestos cement piji>o (22)
Q. "No"?
(2.3 ) that was distributed throughout California from the
(23)
A. Manulacluiing spec:;?
(2 4) Oregon border to the nodhern boundaiy of Bakersfield (2 4)
Q. Divisionwide specs. Nobody has given you any?
(23) and Los Angeles."
( 2 5)
A. No. Jus! him.
110
112
(3 ) (2) (3) (4) (5) ( 6) p) (8) (9) (10) (11) (12) (13) (14) (15) (16) (l? ) (18) (19) (20) (21) (22) (23) <,2 4)
J ]
A. Yes.
(1 ) Q. Nobody lias given you any slandard blends from
Q. Is that correct?
(2) Mr. Wall's firm?
A. That's accurate.
(3) A. No. The only thing I have ever seen from the
Q. And then you also supplied to Washington ansi (4) repository in Denver is what Mark gathered and had
Alaska?
(5) brought down to me and gave me a full set of copies.
A. Yes.
(6) Q. The only thing that you ever got from the JM
Q. And Oregon?
{?) repository were things that Mark gave you?
A. Yeah, i meant the northern Oregon border.
(8)
A. Yeah.
Q. I got you. I got you.
(9) Q. Then that includes any standard blends or any
1 don't think I have anything else, f think
(10) deviations you got from the JM repository, that all came
that's it. Let me look through this one more time, anc (11) from Mark?
then I'li know for sure.
(12)
A. Yes.
Did Mr. Wah or any other lawyer at any point in (13)
MR. VIEIRA: That's all I have. Thank you.
time give you any other deviations or divisionwide
(14)
MR. WAH: Here. Let me get over there.
specs - strike that.
(15)
MR. VIEIRA: All right. We're going to switch.
When Mr. Wah first contacted you on this case (16) EXAMINATION BY MR. WAH:
up until today --
(17)
Q. Mr. Wilkinson, I'm handing you what's been
A. Excuse me?
(18) marked I guess Defendants'9. And HI show it to you.
Q. Yep. A. You know, I told you that I thought it was a
(19) (20)
It's a supplemental declaration of Daryl Wilkinson. Do you see that?
couple weeks ago. 1 just was having recall when I was (21)
A. Yes.
taking a break. And i contacted their firm after j did (22)
Q. And your signature is right there on the last
the declaration with you, Mark, to advise them that I (23) page where that pink Post-it is, correct?
had given a declaration. They didn't contact me.
(24)
A. Yes.
Q- J got you
_______ _
________ _ (25)______ Q. And you signed that on August 1st here in
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D. Wilkinson 8-25-07
'/* ('--Mi.:-- ]).l 1 O I 1 h)
(l ) (?) { >) (4 ) {') ( b) (7) (u) Cd (10) (;i :i ) (Id)
CIO)
(14 ) (IS ) (16) {17 ) (1 h ) (1 y) (20) (21) (22) (23) (21) (2 h)
' Slocklon, coned? A. Yes. Q. Cellini} your nlleniton lo pni.iqiuph 11, Ini me
mod Hint. "In Older to delnimino the a:.In;:.toe cornpo.silion ot a pmliculni .JM pipe, one mud look ai the stencil maikinys on Ibe pipe itself to (letomiine If m? dale the pipe was made and ils blend number. Next on must then review the stand,aid blend and/or deviations employed that day." And is Ilia! youi belief, Mr. Wilkinson?
MR. VIEIRA: Objection. Leading. Objection. Compound.
THE WITNESS: Yes. BY MR. WAN:
Q. What document on a day-to-day basts would tell us the date - I'm sony, the blend number o( a pipe that was made that day oi the deviation that was employed thal day?
MR. VIEIRA: Objection. Vague and compound. THE WITNESS: The forming department product records. BY MR. WAH: Q. All right. Line. Let me - here, Mr, Wilkinson.Thank you. Let me ask you veiy quickly.And I'm going lo
())
(G ()) {'<) (0 (7) (s ) {'.) (in) ( ))) (12) (W) (il) (!M (16) (17) (16) (l `0 (20) (21) (22) (23) (24) (25)
lltai dur.iiiiiuni? A. YimIi U, IIml':; a iiolice i>! lotuin, is that coimet7 I
know il's a liille bluuy, bui A. Ymib, Inal was using duvmllun blend
t.ompleled Sn. . Q. Anti so DiiitY. well, sink'-Ih.tf Whnl does a nolice of lelum indicate lo you?
I leu;. Neill.I- ol leium A. Okay. II was binned oui Q. I know il was binned oui A.Nolice ol lelnin Okay Kidum io slandaiii
blend. Q. All light. And IhaT;.; a notice ol return which
bncienSSy cnys that the thal tun deviation using the Calaveias libei in document numbei is now comploled, coned?
A. Yes. G, AI the time thal Ibis tiiaf ion would be affected, and 1 think lhal dale; is 3-23 76, is cancelled on A -30-76. Do you see that on page 226? A. Yes. Q. Does lhaf dale, 1-30 76, moanlliey weie actually making blends up lo lhal dale, or is lhal jusl ihe dale somebody actually signed il? I guess Daiyl
114 116
(:i ) (2) (3) (4) (5 ) (6) (7) (8) (9} (10) (11) (12) (13) (14) (15) (16) (17) (18) (19) (20) (21) (22) (23) (24) (25)
show you the document that Mr. Vieira was talking abof f. (:i )
And that's document number 000227 in the book. And et (2)
me - may I, Mr, Wilkinson?
(3)
A Yeah.
(4)
Q. It's in Plaintiffs Exhibit 2.
(5)
MR. VIEIRA: Doug, I know there is going to be
(6)
a question coming here. I'll just object to the
(7}
preamble and ask you to ask the question again.
(8)
BY MR. WAH:
(9}
Q. Number 227, that's the document that was--I'm (10)
sorry, Mr. Wilkinson. That's the document that was a
(11)
trial run using the following deviation, correct?
(12)
A. Yes.
(13)
Q. And that's the one that calls for Calaveras two
(14)
bags 19.8 percent?
(15)
A. Yes.
(16)
Q. How long was that deviation in effect; do you
(17)
know?
(18)
A. Well, if normal rules of the game were
(19)
followed, we ran that trial for 90 days or less.
(20)
Q. Number three. Item number three in that notice (21)
of deviation says, in fact, upon completion of trials;
(22)
is thatcorrect?
(23)
A Yes.
(24)
Q. So flip over one page to page 226. Do you see (25)
Wilkinson actually signed it.
MR. VIEIRA: Objection. Compound.
THE WI TNESS: That's when the (rial runs were
completed.
BY MR. WAH:
Q. So at this lime, for example, because this is a
trial run, this is a first deviation showing Calaveras,
I think as Mr. Vieira said, the standard blend - am I
correct in assuming that the standard blend did not
include Calaveras fiber?
A Yes.
Q. Because you made a standard blend on an annual
basis, correct?
A Yes.
Q. At the beginning of the year? A. Yes.
Q. Calaveras wasn't tested until March of that
year, correct?
A Yes.
'
Q. Would the standard blend for 1976 then be
amended to include Calaveras?
A. I don't know.
Q. You would have to have documentation for it?
A You got to have some documents telling you that.
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D. Wilkinson 8-25-07
if)
11/
];.'(>)
i 17 ! 1 O
(1 )
(?)
u> (4) CM <M CO () {}
OD) (:i j} (17)
(:i 3)
( :h )
(13) (H) 07) ( 18) ( 1 9) (20) (23 ) (22) (23) (24) (25)
Q. A blond you said could laslod 90 day:., n in i < i .*
MR. VIEIRA: Objection. Mc.ulafoo the
(/)
testimony.
( *)
MR. WAM: You're right. And I stipnl.ilo.
(1)
Strike that. BY MR. WAH:
< > ? MM
Q. A deviation lasted 90 days?
( /)
MR. VIEIRA: Objection. Misstates his
(H)
testimony. BY MR. WAH:
CM (in)
Q. Correct?
Ml)
A. Yes.
ft?)
Q. Could last up to 90 days?
(3 M
A. Yes.
(14)
Q. Could a deviation also be wrilien loi a shoilor
period of time?
A. Yes.
cm
Q. How short a period of time could a deviation b
written for?
(CM
A. Well, whenever a deviation is writlon, it's
(20)
always good for 90 days. If you choose lo shodon it (21 )
because - the reason for the deviation was because (72)
there was no fiber available and it came in, that would (23)
cut off the deviation and go back lo the regular blend (24)
Q. But is it - do you recall ever writing a
(25)
. 118
BY MR. WAH: Q. I low do you Know Ihoi ' A. Hoc,Hi:.c division sold Ihul only StoiTJun would
got (MiluveUis duo to Ihu vnty t:|sjk",t cord lo chip. U. You worn .ii-kod ,i i.iiipo of pmoeiilagcu Ih.11
Culuvoi.n; w,.i:> used in blonds. And I think il w.o, onywheio liom / and n li.idion poiu.-nl all Iho way up (n maybe 29 piacent.
A. Ye:. Q. Can yon tell us, Mi. Wilkinson, on an uvoi.jge what peiceni Calavoias might be used in ail Hie blend1:? A, len prim ml
MR. VIEIRA: Objection. Lack of loundalion. BY MR. WAH:
Q. Ton peiceni? A. Noimally il was one bay. Q. In fen? A. Theie me cedain times Ilia! Iwo bags wore used such as Hie Irial runs. And (here was a couple ol oilier occasions when.? wo pul in two hays of 5K, Lower. You know, tin? ones-; when we needed it. We didn't have the lower class Jeffrey available. Q. Okay.
MR. VIEIRA: Same? objections. MR. WAH: One last area, and then maybe we can
120
(1) (2) (3) (4) (5)
(6) (7) (8) (9) (10) (11) (12) (13) (14) (15) (16) (17) (18) (19) (20) (21) (22) (23) !24) (25)
deviation, for example, that just said this deviation | Cl )
shall be in effect for 30 days?
(2)
A. No.
(3)
Q. You were asked about the point value of
(4)
Calaveras and whether it was higher or lowerthan
{5)
Cassiar. Do you remember the point value of Cassis r (6)
fiber?
(?)
A. Which Cassiar fiber?
(8)
Q. Let's say the one -- is it 41? Yeah, AT.
(9)
A. 4T Cassiar?
(10)
Q. Uh-huh.
(ID
A. Was 79 points.
(12)
Q. Did Cassiar have a fiber with a point value
(13)
that it was higher than 79?
(14)
A. Yes.
,
(15)
Q. What was that one?
(16)
A. 8K.
'
(17)
Q. How high was that one?
(18)
A. 90.
(19)
Q. Did the Long Beach JM plant, to the best of
(20)
your knowledge, ever purchase any - purchase or use (21)
Calaveras asbestos fiber?
(22)
A. No.
(23)
MR. VIEIRA: Objection.Lack of foundation.
(24)
THE WITNESS: Never.
(25)
go home. We'll see. MR. VIEIRA: I'll be quick.
BY MR. WAH: Q. You were asked how long you and I have known
one another, correct? A. Yes, Q. And I believe that started with the Michael
Haas trial in 1999. Do you recall that? A. Yes. Q. And that was a case in which I believe Michael
Haas was a plant worker, correct? A. Yes. Q. And that was - and Michael Haas developed a
disease and filed a lawsuit, correct? A. Yes. Q. And his lawyer at that time was a gentleman
named Steve Harowitz of the Wartnick Chaber firm. Do you recall that?
A. Yes. MR. VIEIRA: Out of the San Francisco larch
(sic). Larch. MR. WAH: I know what you mean. MR. VIEIRA: I don't even know what I mean.
Objection as to relevance and lack of foundation. BY MR. WAH:
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D. Wilkinson 8-25-07
n ] ;,'i i-o j;,M)
121 1 2 3
. (1) 7 (?)
(.-*) D) (-1') {<>) c/} (H) (9) (U)) (1 ! ) (:19) (U) OH) (i ;>) U.(>) OH) (HU (19) (20) (2.1 ) (22) (23) (24 ) (23)
' Q. And you actually began in Ilia! case working
(11
with Mr. f iaiowitz; is that coned?
(3)
A. Yes.
( 3)
Q. And you were consulting wilh him aboul 1 goes:;
(4)
various events and occurrences and the hisloiy of Iho i vi cd
Stockton plant, correct?
Dd
MR. VIEIRA: Same objections including loadim
{ i)
THE WITNESS: Yes.
W)
BY MR. WAN:
CO
Q. And he was Mr. Haas' attorney?
U u)
MR. VIEIRA: Same objections.
(ID
THE WITNESS: Yes.
(CD
BY MR. WAH:
(13)
Q. Do you recall other plainfitts' attorneys with
(M)
whom you have consulted over the yoais?
( '>)
A. Yeah. There was a firm in Antioch lhal 1
(1 fd
worked wilh.
(17)
Q. Is that the Hobin Shingler firm?
(18)
A. Yeah.
0 9)
Q. Who else?
(20)
A. There was a firm -- well, your firm.
(2 1 )
MR. VIEIRA: Paul Hanley.
(22)
THE WITNESS: With Jackson.
(2 3)
MR. VIEIRA: Bruce Jackson.
(24)
BY MR. WAH:
(25)
(hem llu- (mil) MR. WAH: 1 Inc. Hi.ink you, Mr. Wilkinson. 1
think lii.il'-i .ill 1 have. EXAMINATION BY MR. VII.IRA:
0. Ju!.( so you know, 1 did nol mHnd lo suggt ml Mini you kind any allegiance oik- way oi tho olhoi. 1 jus! won! lo know how long you know him and wl mil mi yi had an oppodunity (o speak wilh him
1 t.H's lalk jus! a lilllu bil and 1 Imly do believe this won't lake or. vmy long aboul :.omc- o( IIin dovinlions lhal you ju?J addiommd wilh Mi, Wuh. Why don'l you and whal I'll do is we'll Hail at page 225 1 think. All liglil. Maybe we'll stall wilh 226. You guys toll me when you'io ihoiu.
MR. WAH: Yeah, I'm there. BY MIT VIEIRA:
Q. Bo 226, Doeumon! 226 in 1'lainlifl's 2 is a nolice of lelum, light?
A. Right. Q. And whal it lolls us is lhal on A -30-76 a deviation was cancelled, .and Ihe deviation Dial was cancelled is Ihe one after that number 227, light? A. Yes. it is. Q. And Ihe reason is Ihe liial inns using (lie deviation Intend were completed?
.122
124
(H (2) (3) (4) (3) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10) (11) (12) (13) (14) (15) (16) (17) (18) (IS) (20) (21) . (22) ; (23) ' (24) (25)
Q. You conferred with Bruce?
(1 )
A. Advocate Mines.
(2)
Q. In fact, 1 think you've given depositions for
(3)
Mr. Jackson --
(4)
A. Yes.
(5)
Q. - when he was at the Paul, Hanley, Harley
(6)
firm?
(7)
A. Yes, a video deposition.
(8)
Q. A video deposition?
(9)
A. (Witness nods head.)
(10)
Q. That was a case against --
(ID
A. Advocate Mines.
(12)
Q. - Advocate Mines?
(13)
You've conferred with Mr. Swanson, correct?
(14)
A. Yes.
(15)
Q. 60 seconds.
(16)
Does it matter to you whether you're conferring (17)
with Mr. Jackson or Mr. Swanson or me or other defens e (18)
firms with regards to the testimony you provide about (19)
the history of the Johns-Manvilie records as they relate (20)
to JM Stockton as they relate to the period 1976 to
(21)
1987?
(22)
A. 1 don't care.
(23)
Q. Same history for either side?
(24)
A. Yes. It's something that 1 know. 1 just tell
(25)
A. Right. Q. So there was a time period when you all were trying to figure out whether this resource that you had 37 miles away, Calaveras liber, was actually going to work, right? A. That's right.
MR. WAH: Objection. But go ahead. MR. VIEIRA: And maybe it's leading. MR. WAH: It also misstates. BY MR. VIEIRA: Q. And so what you actually did was you did a trial run to figure out whether it would work, right? A. Yes. Q. And it did work; didn't it? (The reporter speaks.) MR. VIEIRA: it did work. BY MR. VIEIRA: Q. The fiber worked in the blends? A. Yeah, or we wouldn't have started using it Q. i understand. And if we go to the next deviation, deviation number 225 dated 3-24-76 -A. Uh-huh. Q. -- which is actually before the notice of calculation, correct?
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D. Wilkinson 8-25-07
32 ()-..f.--, I
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.1 25
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A. UJvhuh. Q. It says "utilized Caiavems 5K libci in blc-iid," right? A. Yes, it (Joes. Q. Right. And so tints deviation lhal I'm looking at, the deviation that actually says use the fiber in the blend dated 3-24-76, lias got the Bates stamp ntunlxm STOCK OOD225, right? A. Yes. Q. And that deviation applies lo the numbei two pipe machine pressure products, light? A. Yes. Q. And pressure products are walei pipe? A. Yes. Q. And then it we flip over todocument MT-STOCK-000223 dated 5-3- 76, we have a deviation 111 has Calaveras 4T in it, light? A. Yes. Q. And that's for the number three pipe machine pressure products, right? A. Yes. Q. And the number two and three pipe machine nonpressure products? A. Yes. Q. So for everything that we've addressed in these
(i) (?) (?) (-1) ( 5) ((>) (7) (H) (?) (10) (11) () ? ) (13) (14) (1 '.>) (I (>) (17) (IB) (19) (20) (21) (22) (23) (24) (25)
12 6
IHjIll? A. Yeu. G, And I think Ihul's nil I have loi you I just
wanted !o pninl Ilia! out. h. Ilioio anything else? I hen? was one other topic I wanted lo eovoi
with you. And it yon fell me you don't want lo talk about it. I won't. Do yon have; a5ho:>lo::.i:.7
A. Yes. G. Are thou.' other folk:; that yon worked with over tiro years that have gotten asboslouis? A. I'm the only ashoslosis I know. Allilie rosl are mesollielioma. They'io all dead. Q. What about folks with lung cancer that worked at lire plant; any of those? A. Yon mean that is not tied into causing Jay .asbestos? G. No. A. Just lung cancer? Q. I'm not going to ask you lo make that call. Just folks that had lung cancer lhal worked at the plant. A. Yeah, (here's been probably twenty. Q. Ail right. A. That I know of. Personal friends of mine. Q. I understand.
12 8
(i ) Iasi two deviations, there certainly was no reversion
(l )
(2 ) back to the standard blend, correct? We had..in each
(2)
(3) case, we had a subsequent deviation that utilized
(3)
(4) Calaveras fiber as part of its blend?
(4)
(5) A. Yeah, for 90 days.
(5)
(6) Q. Ail right. And if we wanted to look further
(6)
{7) down the road, let's say, within that 90 days -- let's
(7)
(8 ) go to MT-STOCK-000221. We have a deviation that's being (8)
(9) implemented for again pressure machines or water pipe or
(10) the number one and two pipe machine, correct?
(11)
A. "This is currently a blend of calcium fiber due
(12) to reduced shipments caused by a strike." Okay.
(13)
Q. And the date of that deviation is 7-6-76?
(9) (10) (11) (12) (13) (14)
(14)
A. Okay.
(15)
(15)
Q. And so this deviation actually includes as well
(16)
(16) Calaveras 4T fiber?
(17)
(17)
A. Yeah. One bag of that and one bag of 5K.
(18)
(18)
Q. So what you might have sometimes is a deviation
(19)
(19) being cancelled by a subsequent deviation, and the only
(20)
(20) change is you might continue to have the same percentage (21)
(21) of Calaveras fiber, but there might be changes in the
(22)
(-2 2) percentages of other types of fiber in that blend,
(23)
. (23) (24) (25)
correct? A. As in this case, yes. Q. As in this case that we just went through,
(24) (25)
That is all I have. Thank you. MR. WAH: I'll move to strike the Iasi set of questions about, his condition on a 352. Ail right. Based upon Mr. Vieira's advice, we'll end. MR. VIBRA: Advice of counsel. MR. WAH: Advice of counsel. (The reporter speaks.) MR. WAH: Because you're going to send us-because the reporter is going to send us the -- I'm sorry. Because the transcript is going to be sent to both Mr. Vieira and I electronically, we have agreed that Exhibits 1 through 9 for defendants and Exhibit 1 and 2 for plaintiffs can be retained by Ms. Lee. And she'll bring them back to court with her. And Mr. Vieira has copies of the photographs that have been labeled Defendants'1 through 8. (Defendants' Exhibit No. 9 marked for Identification.) (Whereupon, the deposition was concluded at 4:11 p.m.)
______________ _ SIGNATURE OF WITNESS
Aiken & Welch Court Reporters D. Wilkinson 8-25-07