Document 10gQr7b286dz0vdjyOdxDEmGZ

1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 2 EASTERN DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA 3 4 IN RE : PAOLI RAILROAD YARD 5 PCB LITIGATION : : ; 6 T h 1 s Docu m e n t Re .1 ates to A1.1 Actions 7 : : NO.86-2229 8 9 M a r c. h 2 , .1. 9 9 2 .1. 0 1 1 VOLUME IT. 12 1 3 Continued, oral d e p o s i t ion o 1 4 ROBERT G. KALBY, P h .D. , held in the offices of 1 5 Klehr, Harrison, Harvey, Branzburg & Ellers, 1401 .1. 6 W a Inut Street, P h .i 1 a d e 1 p It ,i a , Perinsy.lv a n 1. a 1910 2 1 7 commencing at 10:30 a.m. on the above date, before 1 8 Li nd a L , Leach, a Regis t ered Pr o e s s 1. ona .1 R epo r t er 1 9 and N o t ary Public for the Co m monwealth o f 2 0 Pennsylvania. 21 2 2 KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. I, e gal Support Services 2 3 4th F1o o r - Robinson Building 42 South 15th Street 2 4 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102-2242 (215) 988-9191 KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029174 2 1 APPEARANCES : 2 KLEHR, HARRISON, HARVEY, BRANZBURG & ELLERS 3 BY: ARNOLD E, COHEN, ESQUIRE 14 0 1 Wainu t Street 4 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102 Counsel for the Plaintiff 5 BLANK, ROME', COMISKY & McCAULEY 6 BY: PATRICK Mc.DONNELL, ESQUIRE 1 2 0 0 Four Penn Center P1 a za 7 Philadelphia, PennsylvanI a 19103 Counsel for SEPTA and Penn Central. 8 MARGOLIS, EDELSTEIN, SCHERLIS & 9 KR AF.MER BY: RICHARD MARGULIES, ESQUIRE 1 0 41. h Floor - The Curtis Center Independence Square West ]. 1 P h 11. a d e 1 p h i a , Pennsylvan I a .1 9 1 0 6 Counsel for A m t ra k 12 SWARTZ, CAMPBELL & DETWEILER 13 BY: CHARLES L. POWELL, ESQUIRE 1 7 0 0 La n d. Ti 1.1. e Build i n g 1 4 P h i 1. a d. e 1 p h i a , Pennsylv a. n i a 1 9 1 1 0 Counsel for Westinghouse 15 LIEBERT, SHORT Sc HIRSHLAND 1 6 BY: JAMES W, STEVENS, ESQUIRE 19 0], Market. Street - 31st Floor 1 7 P h .1 lade 1 p h .1 a , Pennsylv a n i a 19103 Counsel for General Ele c t ric 18 WHITE AND WILLIAMS 1 9 BY: MICHAEL H. MALIN, ESQUIRE One Liberty P1. a c e 2 0 1650 Market Street - Suite 1800 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 2 1 Counsel for Monsanto Company 22 23 24 KRAUSS. KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029175 1 A P P E A R A N C E S (continued) 2 KELLY, MCLAUGHLIN & FOSTER BY: WILLIARD BURNS, ESQUIRE 3 1 7 0 0 Atlantic B u i .1 d i n g 260 South Broad Street 4 Philadelphia PA 19110 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 3 K R A US S . KATZ R ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029176 1 2 INDEX 3 WITNESS 4 ROBERT G . KALEV, P h . D. 5 By Mr. Gotten PAG E 14 6 7 8 NO . EXHIBITS DESCRIPTION PAGE 9 1 0 M- 1 1 1 M- 2 Notice of Depositio n Fax Tr a.n s m i 1.1. a .1 13 13 1 2 M-3 13 M- 4 1 4 M-5 1 5 P-1 1 6 P-2 F a x Trans rn i 11 a 1 F a. x T r a n s m i 11 a 1. F a x T r a ri s ni i 11 a .1 Letter dated 2. - 2 8 - 9 2 D .i a g r a m 13 13 13 13 56 17 1 8 REQUESTS BY MR. COHEN 19 2 0 PAGE 21 42 LINE 13 22 5 7 24 2 3 80 24 8 4 K R A FJ S S . KATZ & ACKERMAN , INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029177 Kaley, Ph.D, 1 2 (It is hereby stipulated and agreed 3 by and among counsel t h a t sealing, 4 filing and certification be waived; 5 and that all objections, except as 6 t o t h e f o r in of the questions, be r e s e r v e d 7 until the time of t ria 1 . ) 8 9 ROBERT G. KALEY, Ph.D., after .1. 0 having been previously sworn, was 1 1 examined and testified as f o 1.1 o w s : 1. 2 1 3 EXAMINATION 14 1 5 MR. COHEN; My name is Arnold 1 6 Cohen. I'm co-counsel for the plaintiffs 1 7 in these actions. I want to put o n t h e ]. 0 record that: it is now .10:30, and I have 1 9 been back from having a surgical procedure 2 0 at the Hospital of the Unive r sit y of 2 1 Pennsylvania for approximately five 2 2 minutes, and I see in my office in my 2 3 conference room Mr. Malin and a w .1. t n e s s 2 4 whose name, I believe, 1. s Robert G . K a 1 e y, KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER_PCB-SD0000029178 Ka 1 ey 6 1 II, P h , D, 2 Is that correct, sir? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 MR, COHEN: I'm at a loss to 5 understand exactly what procedure t hIs is 6 that we are following. I w .i. 1 1 r e p r e 7 for t h e r ecord t. h a t. a s 1 a t, e as 2:30 8 3:00 on Friday afterno o n I spoke 9 personally with Mr. Matin, and he to .1. d m e 1 0 at that time he had no in t ention of 1 1 producing this wit ness t his m orning for 1 2 deposition, and that to the contrary, he 1 3 inte n d e d, to f i .1 e a mot i on f o r a p r o t, e c t ive .1. 4 order to prevent this deposi t i on fro rn 1 5 taking place. 1 6 I a rn aware that at approx i m a t e 1 y 1 7 5:00 p.m. he sent a fax message to 1 8 co-counsel, Martin D'Urso, of Kohn, Klein, 1 9 Nast & Graf and a dvised him t hat he wou1d, 2 0 in fact, produce Dr. Ka .1 ey , Thereafter, 2 1 on the same day I spoke with Mr. M a 1in's 2 2 voice mail, an electronic recordin g 2 3 device, a nd left a message that it would 2 4 be too late now to reschedule the KRACJSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-SD0000029179 Ka 1 ey 7 1 deposition that he had indicated only a 2 couple hours before he was not going to go 3 forward with. I understand he has been 4 given a fax transmission also on Friday 5 from Mr. D ' Urso indicating that it would 6 be impossible to proceed, a t this 1 a t e 7 hour-. I hope to have a copy of t h a t fax 8 transmission before the proceedings are 9 over . 1 0 I do not intend to conduct a 1 1 f u .1.1 e x a m i nation of the witness here 1 2 today, I am not prepared , Consider 1. n g 1 3 Mr. Matin's c.1. r c. u m stances, and. con s i. dering 1 4 the fact a that when h e indicated the 1 5 w i. t n e s s would not b e a v a. .i. table, I d i d n o t 1 6 reschedu 1 e t he surgic a .1. procedure t hi a t. I 1 7 had this morning. My physical health 1 8 doesn't permit me to go forward with the 19 deposition, and I expect to be advised, at 2 0 this time, Mr. M a 1in, what is your 2 1 posi.ti.on with respect to t h .1 s w i t ness ? 2 2 MR. M A LIN: First, let's mark 2 3 t his as M-1 , This is the plaintiff's 2 4 Notice of Deposition for this deposition K R A H S S , KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-SD0000029180 Kaley 8 1 which schedules the deposition of Dr. 2 Robert G. Kaley for March 2nd, 1992 at 3 3 0:0 0 a . m , at the offices of K .1 e h r , 4 Harrison, Harvey, Branzburg & Ellers. It 5 shou 1 d foe clear that we a ppea red w.i t h Dr. 6 Kaley at 3. 0 :0 0 a . m . at this office. 7 I would also like to m a r k o n t he 8 record M - 2 , a fax transmit t a. 1. f o r in , a .1. o ti g 9 with a1 e 11. er to me, fro m Martin D ' U r s o , 3. 0 reportedly co-counsel for the p .1 a i n t i. f f s 1 1 in this case, in which he advises me in 1 2 the fina1 p a ragraph, " Fin ally, p1 ease 1 3 e x p e c t later from John Tnne.1.1 .i , Esqui r e b y 1 4 3:00 t. h i. s afternoon setting forth 1 5 plaintiffs' bases for continuing his 1 6 deposition," referring, of course, to Dr, 3. 7 Kaley. 3. 8 At 3:06 I received a fax 1 9 transmission which shall be marked as M-3 2 CJ which John F. Innelli says, "Please be 2 1 advised that Dr, K a 1. e y ' s forthcoming 2 2 deposition is necessitated by inter" alia, 2 3 the E P A ' s October, 1991 determination that 24 planar P C B molecules have the same KRAIISS , KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER_PCB-SD0000029181 Ka 1 ey 9 1 toxicity of furans and dioxins. See, 2 Volume 56, Fed. Reg. Section 196, pages 3 501-02-04, dated 10/9/91. Given that 4 Monsanto has previously acknowledged that 5 furans are high1y toxic and the BPA ' s 6 recent determ i. n a t i. o n t h a t p .1 a n a r P C B 7 jn o 1 e c u les are the equi v a .1 eut of. furons, 8 the r e are new 1 i. n e s of i. n quiry regar d. i. n g 9 the toxicity of P C B s that did not exist in 1 0 November of 1990, Inasmuch as Dr. K a 1 e y 1 1 was tendered by Monsant o a s t h e e m p .1 o y e e 1 2 who had conducted the quantitative 1 3 analysis of polychlorinated b 1. phenyls f or 1 4 Monsanto, it .is appropriate to proceed 1. 5 with his deposition on March 2nd, 1992," .1 6 A f t e r recei.pt o f that .1 7 1e 11 e r an d re viewing it , I sent faxes t o 1.8 everyone, and I have here th e fax .1. 9 t rans in ission s which w i 1.1 be marked M-4 2 0 MR , COHEN; Who is "everyone " ? 2 1 MR , MALIN: A .1.1 counsel. 2 2 MR . COHEN: Y o u d. i. d n ' t send m e 2 3 one. 2 4 MR. MALIN: Mark as M-4 the fax KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-SD0000029182 Ka 1ey 10 ]. transmission sent to K1 e h r, Harrison, 2 Arnold. Cohen. 3 MR. COHEN; When? 4 MR. MAUN: Date and time. 4:49 5 p . m . is th e one that go t to you. 6 MR. COHEN: I don't have a copy 7 of it. I was here Sa turday , and I didn't 8 see it, e .i. t. h e r , 9 MR. MALIN: And to Harold Kohn, 1 0 mark as M-5, Received 4 : 51 . 1 1. Let the record also s tate 1 2 that I di d tell Mr. Cohen t ha t. un .1 e s s he 1 3 could give me some reason why there was 1 4 someth i n g new that he needed to get from 1 5 Dr. K a 1e y, I would file such a motion for 1 6 a protective order, That d i. d., .i. n fact, ]. 7 happen, I was also advised by Mr, D 1 Urso 1 8 that we would get, as these letters show, 1 9 such information by 3:00, 2 0 At 3:06 I received the letter 2 1 which is from Mr, Innel,l i , which is so 2 2 marked, which indicated t h a. t the r e 1. s a 2 3 line of inquiry which was not explored 2 4 before, I, therefore, agreed to produce KRAtJSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029183 K a .1 e y 11 1 Dr. K a 1e y as soon as I can make the 2 appropriate arrangements with Dr. Kaley. 3 Dr. Kaley is here. 4 MR. COHEN : Did you receive my 5 v o .i. c e mail message. Mr . M a 1. .1 n ? 6 MR. MALIN; I got your- v o i c. e 7 mail message t his morning. 8 MR. COHEN: I see. 9 MR , MALIN : Dr . Kaley is here. 1 0 I also informed Mr. D'Ur so when he did 1 1 c a .11 me and say that h e didn't t. h i n lc i t .1. 2 w o u .1 d be possible to g o forward wit h the 13 d e p o s 1.1 i o n , that i t was. nonetheless, too 1 4 1 a t e t. o cancel it, and we h a v e dec i d ed to 1 5 go forward with it. You had noticed it. .1. 6 You have no reason to call it off. 1 7 MR, COHEN: We didn't call it 1 0 off. 1 9 MR. M A LIN; There was no motion 2 0 for a protective order filed, I said that 2 1 if you could come up with something 2 2 d i f f e r e n t, than that f o r which y o u h a d 2 3 deposed him before so that it wouldn't be 2 4 a waste of his time and ours, we would KRA11SS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029184 Ka 1ey .1 2 1 produce him, You have come up with 2 something that looks apparently different 3 and upon which he was not deposed. I 4 agreed to produce him. He is here. So, 5 please go forward. 6 MR. COHEN: I am unaccustomed to 7 t. his practice whereby an attorney 8 represents at 3:00 p,m. on Friday 9 afternoon that he does not intend to 1 0 produce a w .i. t ness and intends t o file a 1 .1. motion for protective order, to have t. h a. t 1 2 same attorney t h e n at 10 m .i n u t e s to 5 in 1 3 the evening do a reversal of direction 1 4 without contacting counsel in order to 1 5 dete.rmi.ne w h e t h e r the previously-scheduled .1 6 deposition would be convenien t .i n .1. i g h 1: o f 1 7 his change in position. Consequently, I .1. 8 object to this deposition. However, I 1 9 will proceed wi t h c er t ai n areas o f: inquir y 2 0 since the witness is here, 2 .1 I n light of my health and in 2 2 1 i g h, t of t h e circumstances of the 2 3 deposition, I will reserve all rights to 2 4 recall this witness as is required. KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER_PCB-SD0000029185 Kaley 13 1 I also want to put on the record 2 a copy of a 1etter that was sent 1 a s t 3 Friday which I had alluded to earlier. 4 The fax t r ansmission at the top indi c. ates 5 March 2nd and the time that it was s e n t to 6 me by telecopy, but it was sent on F r i. d a y 7 to Mr. Malin in d 1. c a t ing our objection. 8 You can call that whatever y o u 9 would like. Plaintiffs 1 or whatever, 1 0 (Whereupon, P-1 was marked for 1 .1 identification.) 1 2 MR, MALIN! I would 1ike t h e 1. 3 record to show that Mr, Innell .i demanded 1 4 at 3:06 that we produce Dr. Kaley here on 1 5 March 2nd, We have done so. 1 6 Does Mr. Innelli represent the 1 7 plaintiffs, Mr, Cohen? 1 8 MR, COHEN: You know he is one l 9 of the counsel for the plaintiffs, Mr, 2 0 Malin. Y o u are a w a re of that, 2 1 MR, MALIN: Fine. 2 2 (Whereupon, the exhibits were 2 3 marked M-l through M-5 for 2 4 iden t i f i. c. a. t i on.) KRAIJSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029186 K a. 1 e y 14 1 2 EXAMINATION 3 4 BY MR. COHEN: fi Q, Dr. K a 1e y, when were you first advised 6 that the plaintiff 1 s w i s h to r esume your depos i t i. o n 7 had happened? 0 A , Seems to in e about a week ago, 9 week-and-a-half ago. 1 0 Q . Did you indicate to Mr, M a 1 i rt a t t h a t 1 1 time that you would be available to come to 1 2 Philadelphia on March 2nd to continue your 1 3 deposition? .1. 4 MR . MALIN; Objection , 1 5 MR . COHEN: What's the 1 6 the objection ? 1 7 MR. M A LIN: Discussions between 1 8 client and counsel. 1 9 MR. COHEN: Are you contending 2 0 that w h e t h e r the witness indicated his 2 1 avail a b i 1 i t y i s s o in e t h i. n g t h at's 2 2 privileged? Are you contending that's a 2 3 work product? 24 MR. MALIN: That's my position. KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-SD0000029187 Ka 1 ey 15 1 MR. COHEN: So , you are not 2 going to a 1 low t his w i. tnes s to tell me 3 whether h e was advised t o come here 4 earlier and whether those arrangements 5 were ever changed or suspended? 6 MR. MALIN: The nature of our 7 conversation has to do with the 8 attorney-client p rivi1e g e. 9 MR. COHEN: So, yon are 1 0 contending that a. 11 of that i s 1 1 privileged? 1 2 MR. MALIN: That's all .1. 3 priviledged, 1. 4 MR. COHEN: Well, I will put on 1 5 the record the questions. You can object 1 6 to each one of t h em . 1 7 BY MR. COHEN; 1 8 Q, Here you ever advised. Doctor, that the 1 9 deposi.ti.on i n question was not going to take place 2 0 on March 2nd as originally scheduled? 2 1 MR. MALIN; Objection. Well, 2 2 no. Strike that. You can answer' that, 2 3 THE WITNESS; I was a d v i. s e d that 2 4 there w a s that possibility. K R A FJ S S , KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-SD0000029188 I Ka 1 ey 16 1 BY MR. COHEN: 2 Q I ' m sorry. 3 A . I wa s advised that there was a 4 b i 1 i t. y that that would happen. 5 Q . When did you receive that advice. sir? 6 A . L a t e Friday afternoon. 7 Q . So, the first time you were a d v i. s e d t h a. t 8 t he depo s .1 tiori may not take p .1. ace was on F r i d a y 9 afternoon? .1. 0 A. That's correct, .1 1 Q. So, from the time that youwere told ]. 2 that the deposition was going to take place unti1 13 1ate F rid a y afternoon, you were prepared to come to .1 4 Philadelphia today and gi ve a depos.it .i on ? .1 5 A. That's correct. 1 6 Q . At what time onFriday afternoon were 1 7 you a d v i s e d that the deposi.ti.on would not t a k e .1. 8 p1 ace, may not take place? 1 9 A. I t was -- as I recall, it was around 4 ; 3 0 20 St, Louis time, I don't recall, exactly, 2 1 Q. Then did you receive further information 2 2 that the deposition would, in fact, go forward 2 3 t oda y ? 2 4 A, Yes . KRAtJSS , KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029189 Ka 1 ey 17 1 Q . When was t. h a t. ? 2 A . Shortly thereafter-. About 5:00 S t . 3 Louis time. I bel i eve. 4 Q . Were you in St. Loui s at the tim e w h e n 5 you had t he se conversations? 6 A . Yes. I was. 7 Q Were they oonversati ons with Mr. M a .1 i. n ? 0 A . Yes, they were. 9 Q - When was the las t t i. me you had a .1. 0 conversation with Mr. M a 1 i n r e g a r ding t h e sub jec t 1 1 deposition prio r to leaving St, Lo uis f o r 1 2 Philadelphia? .1. 3 A . It was a phone call Friday evening about .1 4 5:00 that we just spoke of. 1 5 Q. How late were you in your office on 1 6 F riday? ]. 7 A , U n t i .1 about 4:30 St . Lo uis time, 1 8 Q So, i n other words. you h ad a 1r e ad y left 1 9 you s p o k e t o M r . Ha Lin at 5:00 p , m . ? 2 0 A . That ' s correct. 2 1. Q - Wh ere did he reach you? 2 2. A , At my home , 2 3 Q , So, h e had your h ome number a t that 2 4 time? K R A (.T S S , KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029190 Ka 1ey 18 1 A . Yes, he d i. d . 2 Q When did you leave St. Louis to come to 3 Philadelphia 7 4 A . Yesterday afternoon. 5 Q . So, until yesterday afternoon, you were 6 at your home in St, L o uis? 7 A . I was. 8 Q . And your office .is in St. Lo u :i s ? 9 A , Yes, it i s , 10 Q. 1 1 office? Or your place of work, .if it is not an 1 2 A . Yes, it is. 1 3 Q - So, at any time up until yesterda y 1. 4 afterrioori, I f: you had had th e depos i t i on cancelled 1 5 or rescheduled, it would not have inconvenienced you 1 6 terribly; is that correct? 1 7 A , I could have not come. That's correct. 1 8 Q. Well, as I understand it, u n ti 1 1 9 mid-afternoon F r i d a. y , you didn't know whether you 2 0 were coming or not? 2 1 A. Well, I assumed I was. I had been told 2 2 I was. 2 3 Q . But you also knew there was a question 2 4 t hat y o u m a y not b e c. o m i n g ? FCRAITSS , KATZ R ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-SD0000029191 K a .1 e y 19 1 A , That's correct. 2 Q . Now, I assume that you have work 3 available to you in your office or laboratory a t 4 your place of employment that you could be 5 performing this m o ming instead of being here? 6 A. Yes. That's correct, 7 Q, You still, are employed byMonsanto 8 Company? 9 A . I am. .1. 0 Q Is tha t Monsanto Chemical Company? 1 1 A . No , 1 2 Q . Who is Monsanto C h e m ,i c a .1 Company? 13 A . Monsanto Chemical Company is one of 1 4 operating divisions of Monsanto Company 1 5 Q . Are you employed., then, by what would be 1 6 a p a rent company? .1. 7 A , I'm not sure of the exact term, I'm in 1. 8 t h e aor pora t e par t of Monsanto. 1 9 Q, Do you know the relationship between 2 0 Monsanto Company and Monsanto Chemical Company? 2 1 A . Well, Monsanto .is basic a .1 .1 y the o v e r a 1.1 2 2 corporation, Monsanto Chemical Company is one of 23 the operating divisions, 2 4 Q. Have you ever been employed by Monsanto KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029192 Ka 1ey 20 1 Chemical Company? 2 A . No t t h e Mens a n t o C h e m i c a .1 Company t h a t 3 exists now. n o . 4 Q I ' m not s ur e I understan d th at an s w e r . 5 A . Let me cl a r i. fy. When I was f 1 r s t 6 employed by M o n s a nto, I j oine d what was then calle d 7 Monsanto Industrial Chemical Company, T h e r e have 8 been several reorganizations, I guess is the easiest 9 term to use, since that time. So that t h e chemica 1 1 0 comp a n y as it e xists now, I have no t b een employe d 1 1 by, but I was originally employed by the indus tri. a 1 1. 2 chemical company. 1. 3 Q - Was t h e .i n d u s t r i a 1 chemical comp a n y t h e 1 4 m anufacture o f PCBs? .1. 5 A . Some parts of time. yes, when I was 1 6 employed there. Yes, 1 7 Q . Who do you understand to be t h e 1 8 manufacturer of the PCBs , other than the industrial, 1 9 chemical company t h a t, you just referred to under the 2 0 general aegis or umbrella, of Monsanto Company? 2 ]. A. Well, I would just say Monsanto Company 2 2 at t h i. s time, and at the time I was employed, the 2 3 industrial chemical company. I don't know th e exact 2 4 organization prior to that and w hat divisions or not KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029193 Ka 1 ey 21 1 that they would have been under. 2 Q. But it all would have been under the 3 general corporate umbrella, to your understanding, 4 of Monsanto Company? 5 A . That ' s correct. 6 Q . Your current employer? 7 A , Yes, That's correct. 8 Q - And the current employer , t h a t i s , 9 Monsanto Company, has remained sort o f t h e u. mbrel 1 0 or, I do n 't know. p ar e n t c o mp a n y of a 1.1 o f the s e 1 1 divisions a. s long a. s they have bee n mamifactur i. n g 1 2 PCBs, as far as you know; is that right? 13 A , That's correct, 1 4 Q . What, is your present job descrip t ion, 1 5 sir? 1 6 A. Job description? 1 7 Q, Yes. What do you do? 1 8 A . I basically have responsibility for a .1 9 source of technical information for various 20 divisions within the company, 2 .1 MR, M A LIN: I'm going to object 2 2 because he gave a full and complete job 2 3 description in his last deposition. 2 4 MR. COHEN: That was in 1990. KRATJSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER_PCB-SD0000029194 Ka 1ey 22 1 I'm asking him about today, 2 MR. M A LIN: Has your job 3 description (changed si. nee 19 9 0 , Mr. Ka ley ? 4 MR. COHEN: Do you mind if I ask 5 my questions? 6 MR. MAUN : Wou 1 d you answer- -- 7 MR. COHEN; Do you wan t t. o 8 conduct a deposition firs t ? I ' 11 b e g 1 a d 9 t o s i t here and defer and let y o u a s k a .11 .1 0 the questions y ou wan t and pick up 1 1 afterwards. But i. f you don't want to do 1 2 that, don't interrupt me. 1 3 MR , M AI, IN ; Go ahead. 1 4 MR . COHEN: Thank you. 1 5 BY MR, COHEN: .1 6 Q . You just gave us your job descr .i. ptio n s , .1 7 s i. r. What's your present job title? .1. 8 A. Director of environment a 1 affairs, .1. 9 Q , How does that, differ from the t i 11 e of 2 0 manager of environmental technical support? 2 1 A, Basically, it is the manager of 2 2 environmental t e c hnical support r e p o r t s t o t h a t 2.3 division o r t o t h a t title now. 24 Q . So, as of September of 1 986, you became KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-SD0000029195 Ka 1ey 23 1 manager of environmental technical support for 2 Monsanto Company, and you are now the director of 3 environmental affairs? 4 A. T h a t 's correct, 5 Q. Someone else is t h e manager of 6 environmental tec h n i. c a 1 support? 7 A , That's correct. 8 Q . When did you change positions? 9 A . First: o f February. 1 0 Q 1 9 9 2? 1 1 A . Yes, sir. 1 2 Q In November of 1990, were you the 1 3 ma nager of e nvironmental technical suppor t a t 1 4 Monsanto Company? 1 5 A . Yes, sir. 1 6 Q Did you have any i n ter 5, m post betwe e n 1 7 November of ' 9 0 and February ;1st, '92? J. 8 A , For about a year. from February of '91 1 9 to February of ' 9 2 I was direct or -- o r environment a 1 2 0 technical support director, 2 1 Q , So, you went, from manager of 2 2 environmenta. 1 t e c, h n i cal support to d i r e c t o r of: 2 3 e rivir o n m e n t a 1 technical sup p o r t to you r presen t 2 4 t i. tie? KRAL1SS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029196 Ka 1 ey 24 1 A . That's correct. 2 Q Have your reporting responsibilities 3 changed during that t i. me peri o d ? 4 A . Yes . 5 Q W h o held the j o b t h at you hold now back 6 h November of '90? 7 A . Dr. William McCarville, 8 M - C - C - A --R-V-I-L-L-E. 9 Q . Is he s ti11 wit h Mon santo Com pa n y ? 1 0 A . 0 n ti1 April 1st, yes. 1. 1 Q Then is he retiring? 1 2 A . Yes , 1 3 Q . How old is Dr. McCarville? 1 4 A . Early 60s. I don't know exact 1y. 1 5 Q - Who held the post t h a t you held as the 1 6 i n t e r 1. m post in November of 1990, director of .1 7 environmen t a .1 t e c hn ,i c a .1 suppor t ? 1. 8 A . No one. 1 9 Q . It didn't exist? 2 0 A . That's correct. 2 1 Q Who holds it now? 2 2 A , No one. 2 3 Q . Doesn't exis t a g a .i n ? 2 4 A . That's correct. KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029197 K a. .1. e y 25 1 Q Would it be fair to say t h a t .i t was a n 2 i n t. e r i m post created for you as you moved up to your 3 present. p o s t ? 4 A . That 5 Q Now , 6 Monsan t. o Company 1 A . Yes . 8 Q You 9 to that time? 1 0 A . That 1. 1 Q You 1 2 knowledge or exp 1 3 1 9 7 3? 1 4 A . That 1 5 Q . Your 1 6 education really 1 7 a. n a 1. y s is of PCBs 1. 8 A . 0 fP i 1 9 Q Now, 2 0 f a miliar w i t h t h ' 2 1 dicyclo- d 1 e p o x y > 2 2 A , I am 2 3 Q Have 2 4 A . Not ' KRAUS3 , ICATZ & ACKERMAN, INC WATER PCB-SD0000029198 Ka 1 ey 26 .1 Q . Do you remember in your depositio n .i n 2 November of 1990 I showed you a document called 3 pyranol compositions? We marked it as Kaley Exhibit 4 3, 5 A , Vaguely. I remember you showing me some 6 documents, yes, or something, 7 Q , D o y o u w a n t t o t a k e a look a t 1.1 a g a i n ? 8 I just want to make sure I have a copy before I hand 9 you the copy th a t I have. .1 0 (Handing over document.) 1 .1 A, (Witness reviewing document , ) .1 2 Q. Do you recall now that I showed you that .1 3 document marked as Kaley-3 before? 1 4 A. I don't have a specific recollection, 1 5 but it is marked. I assume y o u did, yes, 1 6 Q. You do see the compound that I referred 1 7 to, epoxide dicyclo-diepoxy carboxylate, on that 1 8 d o c u /ii e n t ? 1 9 A, Ido. 20 Q . A p p a r e n t; 1 y , it also h a s t h e .i n .i t i a .1 s E R L 2 1 4221. I don't know what they mean. Do you know 22 what they mean? 2 3 A. No. I don't, 24 Q. The manufacture r is Union Carbide, a t KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-SD0000029199 Ka 1 ey 27 1 1e a s t it is 1 n dic a t e d on this document? 2 A . T h a t .is one of the manufacturers , yes, 3 Q, Also Ciba-Ge igy? 4 A, Yes. 5 Q , Since the last deposition or your last 6 appearance here for a depo s 1.1 ion , have you ha.d 7 o c c; a s .i o n t o f: ind out any t hing a b o u t epox ,i d e 8 d. i. c. yclo-diepoxy carb o xy late ? To make i t. e a s ier tor 9 t he court: reporter, why don't we agree to c a 11. 1.1 1 0 EDDC. 1 .1. A . I have not. .1 2 Q Did you make any inquiry to find out 1 3 what it was? 1 4 A , No. I did not. 1 5 Q. You have given depositions in P C B casei 1 6 before, other' than i n November of '90 and today? 1 7 A . I have. 1 8 Q Anybody ever ask you about EDDC? 1 9 A . Not that I can reca 11 . 20 Q , 2 1 fluid? Do you know why .it w a s i n d i. e 1. e c. t. r i c. 2 2 A . I could - - I. have an i d ea o f why i t wa s 2 3 there, yes, 24 Q. Why was it t h e r e ? KRAORS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-SD0000029200 Kaley 28 1 A. It was some sort of a scavenger, either 2 electron or a c h 1 orid e scavenger. 3 Q . Preven t the formation o f: hydrochlo r i c 4 acid during the use of t he di.ei.ec t r i c flu i. d i. n the 5 t r a nsformer or something like t h a t. ? 6 A , I don't think it would be so m u c. h a s t: o 7 prevent th at , as i t wou.1 d be i. f t h a t h a ppe ned , i. t 8 w o u 1 d re a c. t with the free ions t h a. t were p r o d u c e d i n 9 t h at formation and remove th em from t hi e s o 1 u t i on , 1 0 Q What.'s i t. s a y , p o .i. n t -- w h a t ' s i. t , one 1 1 eighth of one percent o f t he solution? 1 2 A . For the 1 u i d s in w h i c. h i t w a s present, 1 3 yes. 14 Q. For t hi e fluids in which .it was p r esen t 1 5 at the level of one eighth of one percent, how many 3. 6 parts per mi .1 .1 ion is one e i g it t h of: one p e rcen t ? l 7 A . 1,250 1 8 Q - P a r t. s per million? .1 9 A . Parts per million. 2 0 Q Prior to using the EDDC, apparently in 2 1 this pyranol fluid tin tetraphenyl was use d. a. s a 22 scavariger? 2 3 A . From t h i s particular docu rn e n t , t h a t 2 4 a p p ears to be t. h e case. KR AITSS , KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029201 Ka 1 ey ] Q. Well, do you have any information to the 2 c. o n t r a r y ? 3 A. I do not, 4 Q. Now, who manufactured these pyranol 5 fluids for- General Electric Company during the t .1 m e 6 period shown, do you know? 7 MR. MALIN: Object!o n to the 8 form o f t h e ques 11. o n u n t i .1. w e find o ut 9 w h a t w e m e a n by " manufactured. " A n s w e r i 1 0 i f y o u t h ink you understand it .1. 1 THE WITNESS: Monsanto 1 2 manufa ctured the PCBs. 1 3 BY MR, COHEN: 1 4 Q , Do y oxr know who actually mixed or 1 5 blended, or whatever p h rase y o u w a n t to use, the .1. 6 fluid that end ed up being called pyrano .1 ? 1 7 A , At some po i.n t s .1 n time, Monsanto blended 1 8 some of the fluids. I don't know which specific 1 9 ones. It is my understanding that General Electric 2 0 also did some of the blending themselves, 2 1 Q, Now, if Monsanto was man uf a cturing or 2 2 blending the fluid, whatever you w a n t to c a .1 .1 i t, 2 3 according to a General Electric spec, and the spec 2 4 was as presented on K a 1e y-3, would Monsanto have K R A FJ S S , KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-SD0000029202 K a ley 30 I added EDDC? 2 A . I don't: know the answer to that. 3 q , Well , who would know the answe r t: o t h a t ? 4 A. Who would know the answe r to t h a t ? 5 Q . Yes, 6 A . Whoever was r espons.ib.1 e for e ,i. ther doi n g 7 the blending or whoever was responsible at General. 8 El 1 e e trie for doing the spec. 9 Q . Well, d id Monsanto manuf a c t:ur e the ]. 0 product or blend the product for General Elec t r.ic .1 n 1 1 accordance wi t h the spec i. f ications p r o v i d. e d b y 1 2 General E1ec trie? 13 A. 14 Q. 1 5 have? I don ' t have direct know .1 edg e of t h a t , Wei 1 , what indirect k nowledge d o you 1. 6 A , W e 11 , I a s s u rn e t h a t M o n s a n t o a n d G e n e r a 1 1 7 Electric had some a g x- e e m ent on what Mo n s anto w a s to 1 8 do prior to shipping product under the pyranol 1 9 label, I d o n't know w h e t h e r that i n c. 1 uded all of 2 0 the blending, some of the blending, all of the 2 1 ingredients, some of the ingredients, I just don't 2 2 know t h e answer , 2 3 Q Well, tell me who in the Monsanto 2 4 Company organization can answer those questions f o r f K R A 11 S S , KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029203 Ka 1 ey 31 1 me . 2 A. My best guess would be William 3 Papageorge , El e i s a retiree, but he i. s / as far as 3. 4 know, the most knowledgeable abou t t h o s e k i. n d s of 5 questions . 6 Q . Mr. Papageorge was not involved .i n t h e 7 man u f a c turin g division of Monsanto Chemical Com p any 8 a t t h a t time ; was he ? 9 A , Well, he works at the chemical c o rn p a n y .1 0 under' which the manufacturing was done. He wa s n ' t 1 1 a t t hi e p 1 a ti t . .1 2 Q . Well, he was a plant: manager' a t Saget 1 3 f o r a while; wasn't he? 14 A. I don't know if it was Saget o :r n o t . 11 1 5 may have been. My recollection was that it was 1 6 Queenie. He was in Anastan for a while. 1 7 Q, He was a plant manage r ? 1 8 A. That's correct, 1 9 Q , At a t plan t ? 2 0 A. At least one. 2 .1. Q, Well, who would have known what was 2 2 being done at all the p .1 a n t s so as t o answer- t. h e 2 3 question for me how Monsanto blended the product for 2 4 General Electric known as p y r a n o 1 , what t. h e y KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029204 Ka 1ey 32 1 a. d d. e d. ? 2 MR. MALIN: Mr. Cohen, the 3 witness has a 1r e a d y told you t h at h e 4 doesn't -- that he either- doe s n ' t k now o r 5 he has given you his best guess. You are 6 asking him questions which are not w i t h .i n 7 h i. s a r e a. of e x p e r t i s e He i s an 8 analytical chemist, which you are aware 9 of . .1 0 BY MR. COHEN: 1 1 Q Is that your answer, Doc t o r? 1 2 A . My answer is I hav e g i ve n you Mr 1 3 W i .1 .1 .i a m P a p a g e o r g e ' s n a m e . He .i s the m o s t 1 4 lcnowledg e a b1e a b o u t these issues and of thos 1 Pi know, and that's my answer-, yes. 1 6 Q. Other than Mr. P a p a g e o r g e, can you tell 1 7 me a name of a Monsanto Company representative w h o 1 8 would have either the personal i nfor m a t. i. o n o r t h e .1. 9 records that could reflect for me the names of the 2 0 individuals who know wha t products Monsanto was 2 1 putting out the door? 2 2 A. I wouldn't know whose name to venture, 2 3 Q. Your present job, are you required to 2 4 know t he toxicity of th e products that you are KRAITSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029205 Ka 1ey 33 1 prod.uc ing? 2 A . I'm required to be able to understand 3 toxicolo g i. cal 1 i terature . I don' t h a v e spe c 1 f i. c 4 knowledge, no, 5 Q . Have you ever done anything t o d e t e r rn i n e 6 whether E D D C had toxic pro p e r ties eit h er to ma n, 7 a n .i mats or in t h e environ m e n t ? 8 A , Have I person a 11y ? No, 9 Q , Since you were here in November' of 1990, 1 0 d id you do anything to find o u t i. f t here was any 1 1 1 i t e r a t ure availab 1 e i n indie a ting t ti e toxic 1 2 properties of EDDC? 1 3 A, I did not, 1 4 MR. M A LIN ; The question ha s 1. 5 already been asked and answered, but 1 6 a n s w e r i. t a g a i n . 1 7 THE WITNESS; I did not, 1 8 BY MR, COHEN; 1 9 Q. Have you h ea rd of compound called 2 0 epoxide 201? 2 .1. A. I do not believe so. 2 2. Q , Pard.on? 2 3 A , No, sir, 2 4 Q, How about 3, 4-epoxy-6-methyl- KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029206 Ka 1ey 34 1 cyclohexylmethyl-3,4-epoxy-62 roethylcyclohexylcarboxylate? 3 A. 4 no . I don't have specific knowledge of that, 5 MR. M A LIN : Is that a .1.1 o n e 6 c. h e m i c. a 1 or did you say i t t w i c e ? 7 MR. COHEN: No. I think that it 8 is actual1y on e. 9 MR. MALIN: Okay. 1 0 BY MR. COHEN: .1 1 Q Is it more than one, Doctor ? 1 2 A . I have no i. d e a , 1 3 Q . You have no i d e a ? .1 4 A . I ass u m e i. t is on e. I d 1. d n ' t he a r 1 5 anything that would lead me to believe that it was 1 6 two. 1 7 Q. That's what I thought, but your counse1 1 8 i n d i c a t e d . Maybe he h a d spec 1. a 1. knowledge o n t h i. s . 1 9 He has chemical training from what we know. 2 0 A. I don't know, 2 1 Q. Have you ever had occasion to look at 2 2 t. he collection of docume n ts that Monsanto m a i. n t a i. n s 2 3 regarding the toxicologic properties of thei .r 2 4 p r oducts? KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029207 Ka ley 35 .1 A . I don't think so. I don't know 2 specifically what collection you are t a. 1 k i n g a b o u t , 3 if any. 4 Q , We .11 , .is t h e r es u c h a c o 11 e c t ,i o n ? 5 A. Not to my knowledge. I mean we have an 6 MSDS on PCBs . I'm f a m ,i 1 i a r w .i t. h t h a t , whic h 7 summarizes ; but other tha.n that, I don't, know, 8 Q , Well, in fact, you actually helped w r .i t e 9 part of your MSDS on PCBs; didn't y o u ? 1 0 A. A previous incarnation of it, yes. The 1 1 present one, no, 1 2 Q . Ar e y ou f a in .i 1 i ar wi t.h any r e s earch t h a t 13 was done back in the'60s regarding the toxic 1 4 properties of epoxide 201 o r E D D C o r any of the 1 5 other compounds I have mentioned so far t o d a. y other 1 6 t han PCBs? 1 7 A , I am no t , .1 8 Q, Who in Monsanto Company would know about 1 9 t, h e toxic properties of the products that you were 2 0 mariu f ac turing back in the '60 s and '70s pr .ior t o 2 1 your employment? 2 2 A . I don't have! a s p e c i f .i c a nswe r to t h a t . 2 3 There's nobody in the toxicology depart men t a. t that 2 4 time t hat's still employed, I b e 1 .i e v e , P r e d KRA11SS , KATZ R ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-SD0000029208 Ka 1 ey 36 1 Joha ris on j. s director of toxicology. I don't know 2 w h e n h e j oined Monsanto. 3 Q . How about Mr. Papageorge? I a h e t h e 4 expert on t. h a t, a. g a 3. n ? 5 A . On toxicology? 6 Q . Yes, 7 A , He would have knowledge. H e i s 8 c e r t. a i. n .1. y not an expert on toxicology. I don ' t 9 believe, 1 0 Q - Where were you on November 15, 1991? 1 1 A , November 15, 1991? .1 2 Q Yes, ]. 3 A , I was in Washington, DC, 1 4 Q , What were you doing there? 1 5 A , I was attending an EPA hearing on the 1. 6 r e e v a luation of t h e toxicity of di ox .i n . 1. 7 Q Where did 3. t t a. k e p .1. ace? .1. 8 A . I believe 3 t was ti t E P A h e a d q u a r t e r s 1 9 Q < Waterside Mai 1 ? 2 0 A. I believe that's correct. Yes, 2 .1 Q, 401 M Street? 2 2 A, Yes . 23 Q, How d i dy o xi get to go there? 2 4 A . How did 1 getto go there? It was an KRAIISS , KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-SD0000029209 Ka 1 ey 37 1 open me e ting, 2 Q, Were you invited, were y o u advised of 3 the mee t i tig , wer e you t o 1 d i t wa s go i. ng t o h a p pen? 4 A, I knew it was going to happen, yes, 5 Q , Had Monsanto Company bee n a. n a c. t i v e 6 pa rt .i c i pant in t h e ef for t to review t h e toxic o logic 7 p r o p e r 11e s of dioxins? 8 MR. MALIN: Object t o t he form 9 of the question. If you think you can .1 0 answer- t ti a t q u e s t ion c h a ra cte r .ized a s .i t 1 1 1. s , please try to do s o . 1 2 THE WITNESS: I don't have any 1 3 knowledge that we were, no, 1 4 BY MR, COHEN: 1 8 Q . You are aware t h a t the paper .i n d u s t r y .is 1 6 t ryin g to get the toxicologic properties o f dioxin s 1 7 reviewed? 1 8 A, I'm certain1y a w a r e t h e y h a v e a n 1 9 nterest in it, yes. 2 0 Q . How about; the chlorine .i n d u s t r y ? 2 1 A , Yes, They have an i. uteres t i. n .1. t a 1 s o 2 2 Q. Is Monsanto a member of t he c h .1 o r .i n e 2 3 Indus t ,r y ? 24 A . I f y o u a r e t a Iking about the Chlor .i n e KRAIJSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-SD0000029210 Ka 1ey 30 1 Institute specifically, no, 2 Q. Are you generally a manufacturer of 3 products containing chlorine? 4 A . I believe we still do m a n uf ac tur e some 5 produc ts containing chlorine, yes. 6 Q . But you a r e u ri a w a re of: a ny effo r t a t 7 this time in w h i. ch Moris a nto Com p a n y i s p a r t i. c i p a t i n g 8 to have the toxicologic properties of dioxin 9 r e v i. ewed? 1 0 A . I'm un a w a re of s u c h a c t .i v i t y , 1 1 Q Y o \i said u n aware? 1 2 A , I'm unaware of such a c t .i v i t y by Mens a n t o .1.3 Company, yes .1. 4 Q . Do you know of a Dr, H o uk, H-0-U - - K? 1 5 A . 11 i s pronounced Houle, but, yes, I know 1 6 who you a r e speaking- of. 1. 7 Q . Do you know who employs Dr. Houle? 1 8 A , Yes, I do. 1 9 Q . Who? 2 0 A . He is employed by the Centers for 2 1 Disease Control. 2 2 Q W h a t, if any, e f f o rt is Dr. H o u k m a kin g 2 3 with respect to the attempt to reevaluate the 2 4 toxicologic properties of dioxins? K R A FI F> S , KATZ & ACKERMAN, T.NC, WATER PCB-SD0000029211 Ka 1 ey 39 1 A . I don't know that he .is making a n y 2 particular effort. He i. s voicing his opin i o n s o n 3 certain subjects, 4 Q . Do you know what his op .i n .i oris a r e ? 5 A > I believe his b a s;i. c, op i. n i. on i. s t h a t. 6 d .i ox i n m a y n o t b e a s toxic as orig i. n a 11 y t h o u g h t 5 , 7 6 , 1 0 y e a r s ago. 8 Q W h at doe s he base 1h a t on, do you k no w ? 9 A He bases it, as I unders tand it. 1 0 p r .i rn a r i 1 y o n t h e e p .i d e rn i o .1 ogi c a 1 .1 .i t e r a t ure , 1 1 Q, Are you aware of any new studies t ha t .1 2 Dr, Houk relies upon ? 1 3 A. I'm not -- I can't speak to w h a t D r, Oouk 1 4 is or i s n o t r e 1 y i. n g upon, 1 5 Q. Well, have you had an opportunity to 1. 6 read his papers, h i. s present a t i. o n s , hear any of h i. s 1 7 speeches on the sub j e c t? 18 A, I have seen reference to it i. n v a r .i. o u. s 1 9 journal -- not jo u r n a Is, but t rade in agaz i n e s , new s 2 0 report magazines , 2 .1. Q . I n f a c. t, Dr~, H o u k b a s i c a 11 y i s look i n g 2 2 at da ta that's r a ther o1d; is n't he? 23 A. I can't speak to w h a t h e is or isn ' t 2 4 looking at. KR A 0 S S , KATZ R ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-SD0000029212 Kaley 40 1 Q In o t h er 2 A . I don't 3 relying on. no , 4 Q W h y did 5 1. 5 , 1 9 9 1 ? 6 A . I went a 7 present comments to 8 Q CMA is 9 A . Chemi ca. 1 1 0 Q - That's n 1 1 A . No, it i 1 2 Q Mons a n t o 13 A , Yes, it .1. 4 Q Does Mon i r> the CMA? 1 6 A , I'm s ur e 1 7 Q . Do you h 1 8 contri b u t e on an arm u a .1 b a s .1 s to t hi e C M A ? 1 9 A , I do no t . 2 0 Q. Do you have any idea oC the order of 2 1 magnitude of their contrib u tio n a to the CMA? 22 A . I d o n o t . 2 3 Q. They give of your time? 24 A . Some, yes. KRAHSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029213 Ka 1 ey 41 1 Q . Other people's time? 2 A . Yes. 3 Q Who else can you id entity for me who 4 Mons an to would be willing to con t r i bute t. i. m e to the 5 Chemical Mariufact u r e rs Assoc.iatio n ? 6 MR. MALIN: Objection to the 7 form of the question 8 BY MR, COHEN: 9 Q Do you understand what I mean, Doc t or ? 1 0 Employee: of Monsanto? 1 1 A . I understand what y o u m e a n. 1 2. Q Who? 1 3 A . Heavens, I mean everyone. 1 4 Q . Everyone? 1 5 A , Not everyone, but certainly there are 1 6 probably tens , i. f not hundreds of peop 1 e , I don' t 1 7 know t h e e xact number. 1 8 Q Who are Monsanto Company employees? 1 9 A , Yes. That's what the organization is. 20 It is groups of employees of the chemical industry 2 1 w h o in e e t to d e a .1 w .i t h t opic s o f intere s t t o 1h e 2 2 industry, 2 3 0 . So, when you went, to Washing t o n o n 2 4 November 15, you did not go as a r e p r e s e n t a tiv e of KRAUSS , KATf! & ACKERMAN , I N C . WATER PCB-SD0000029214 Ka 1ey 42 1 Monsanto Company? 2 A . That's correct. 3 Q You went as a. representative of C M A ? 4 A That's correct, 5 Q Did you have any presentation t o make? 6 A Yes, I did. 7 Q Do you have a copy of it ? 8 A Not with) me. 9 Q W he re is it ? 1. 0 A In my office in St. Louis, .1 1 Q You could easily get a h o1d of it? 1 2 A Ce rta inly. 13 MR. COHEN: I 'm going t. o a s lc 1 4 counsel a t t hi i s tim e t o p r o v i d e m e w i t h 1 5 copy of Dr. K a 1 e y ' s presentation prep ared 1 6 for' the November 15, 199.1 meeting. 1 7 BY MR. COHEN: 1 8 Q . D :r . K a 1 e y , can you tell m e has i c a .11 y 19 what was the thrust of your presentation? 2 0 A . Thrust of my presen t a t i on wa s t ha t t hi e 2 1 C M A group was concerned about the E P A 1s expressed 22 interest in the use of TEF s , Toxicity Equ i va .1 ency 2 3 Factors for PCBs , and t. h a. t. we felt that. t. h e i. r use 2 4 was premature and inappropriate at t hi .i s t i m e , KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, T.NC, WATER PCB-SD0000029215 Ka 1ey 43 ]. MR. COHEN: I want you to note 2 the request on a separate s e h ed u .1 e .i n case 3 we have more such requests. Also, you 4 will note the page so I can read! 1. y fin d 5 it since I have h ad no response from 6 counsel regarding my request ind i c a t. i n g 7 that he would produce it . 8 BY MR, COHEN: 9 Q T EFs, Doctor? 1 0 A , Yes, 1 .1 Q - Toxi c ity Equiva 1e ncy Fa c t ors? 1 2 A . That ' s correct. 1 3 Q What do they me a n ? 1 4 A , What do they mean? 1 5 Q What ' s that m e a n , t h a t p h r a se ? 1 6 A . B a. s i c ally, it is a s hor thand procedure 1 7 of trying t o -- depending on the chemic a .1 s involved, 1 8 trying to r e 1 a t e the toxicity of a mixture t o a 1 9 pet ra d i g m comp o und , a surroga te coupoun d so t h a t r .i s k 2.0 assessors migh t be able to make judgments on 2 1 in .i x t u res . 2 2 Q . Bo, you are opposed to t h at p r a c tice? 2 3 A. I wouldn't say I'm opposed to it, no. 2 4 Certainly n o t. KR A 1J S S , KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029216 Ka 1ey 44 ]. Q. Tell me what 1 s your position with 2 respect to the usie of TEFs , 3 A . My -- with respect to the u s e of TEFir in 4 general, I thin k :i. t i. s recognized to b e a n inter! m 5 procedure a rid n e e d s t o b e u t. .i 1 1 z e d i D t. h a t case. I 6 think 1t needs to be used c a r e f u11 y, but I t hin k 7 under proper controlled conditions f o r risk 8 assessment, it may have a p p ropriate usage, 9 Q . Now, has E P A suggested that they .inter)d 1 0 t o u s e a TEF for P C B s ? If a nybody c. a n u n dersta n d .1 1 t his transcript, it will be wonder f u .1 , 1 2 Do you understand my question, 1 3 MR, MALIN: I'll object to the 1 4 form of the question, I don't know how he 1 5 is going to know w h a t E P A is suggesting 1. 6 unless they h a v e said something or h a. v e 3. 7 p u t .i. t out. B u t go a head and answer .i t , 1 8 MR, COHEN: We can probably find .1. 9 that o ut if he wi11 t ell us. 2 0 THE WITNESS; I'm sorry. Would 2 1 we r epea t the ques tion? 2 2 MR, COHEN; 2 3 Q. Has he E P A, sir, to your knowledge, 2 4 indicated that they intend to use a TEF for P C B s ? KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029217 Ka 1 ey 45 1 A. T h e y h a v e indicated t h a t they a r e 2 investigating whether that use of it migh t b e 3 appropriate under certain conditions. 4 Q, Now, what would b e their p aradigm 5 comp o u nd ? 6 A , A t this timethey are 1o oking at 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 7 tetr a. c h 1 o r o d i benzodioxin , 8 Q . So, they want to prepare for PCBs a TEF 9 t. h a t w o u Id co in pare the toxicity of P C B s to 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 1 0 T CCD; is that correct? 1 1 A . I don't know if I would use the term .1. 2 " w a ri t to," but they areinv e s t .i g a t .ing that, yes, 1 3 Q . They are investigating t h e po s s i. b 1. .1. i. t y 1 4 of developing a TEF to c o rn p a r e the toxicity of: P C B s 1 5 to 2,3,7,8 TCCD? .1 6 A , In general terms, that's correct. 1 7 Q. Have they suggested what the TEF would 1 8 be f or PCBs ? 1 9 MR. MALIN; Objection to the 2 0 f o r m of that question. Again, answer if 2 1 you can, Doctor. 2 2 T HE WIT N E SS: I don't know t h a t 2 3 E P A has, 2 4 BY MR, COHEN: KRAUSE, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-SD0000029218 KK aa1leeyy 46 1 Q Has anyone? 2 A . T h e i' e are certain researche r s who have, 3 yes. 4 Q F i rst of a .11 , let's s t a r t with who is i t 5 at E P A that you know to b e responsible for this? T E F 6 exercise? 7 A . Well, I would say Dr . Linda Birnba um, 8 B-I-R-N-B-- A - rj - M . 9 Q Ha ve y ou had occasion t o spea k t. o D:r , 1 0 B i r n b a. u m ? 1 .1. A . Not. personally. S h e was on the pan e .1 1 2 listening to the comments I made a t t he E P A 1. 3 me e ting. ]. 4 Q - Is she an M . D . or a P h .D, ? 1 5 A . She must be a P h.D. I don't know 16 specific a J. .1 y . I w o u 1 d certainly make a n educ a t e d 1 7 guess that, she 1 s a. P h , D . 1 8 Q Do you know where she has been educated? 1 9 A , I do not. 2 0 Q . Do you know her employment experience? 2. 1 A . In the vaguest of t. e r m s , 22 Q . Tell me. 2 3 A . She was -- when I first became a w a re of 2 4 her, she wa s employed by the National I n s t i t ut.es -- KRA1TSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN , INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029219 Ka 1 ey ]. I'm sorry. The Nation a .1 I n s t, i t ute for E n v i r o n m e n 1 a .1 2 Health Research. I'm sorry. Sera, t c h t hat . 3 National I n s t i t u t e f o r E n viro n m e n t a .1 Heal t h Sc i e rices 4 at Resear c h T r i a n g .1. e P a r k , And she h as r e c e n t. 1. y 5 within t h e 1 a s t yea x~ or two m o v e d , I believe it i s 6 t o the H e a 11 h Effects Res e a. r c h L abor a tory o f the E P A 7 also at Researc h Triangle Park. 8 Q , Where 1 s Research T r i. angle Park? 9 A . 11 j. s amorig Chapel Hill, Raleigh, Dur h a m 1 0 a rid some o t h er c 11.y i n North Caro 1 i. na . 1 1. Q . Was her first e m p .1 o y ru e n t the I n s t i t u t e. 1 2 for Environme n t a 1 H e a 1. t. h Sci.enc.es at R e s e a r c h 1 3 T riangle P a r k , an agency of. t h e E P A ? 1 4 A . No. NIH S i. s - - it Is eventua .1. .1 y under .1. 5 Health and Hum a n Services. 11 is par t o f NIH, 1 6 N a t. i o n a 1 Insti t utes of H e a 11 h , w h i. c h I believe i s 1 7 u n d e r H e a .11 h and Human Services. 1 8 Q N o w , has Dr. B i. X' n b a. u m , to y o u r 1 9 understanding, t a k e n a positio n regarding the 2 0 development o f a TEF for P C B s ? 2 1 A . My unde r s tariding i s she is doin g 2 2 r e s e a r c, h on that question curren 11 y . 2 3 Q . Did she m a k e a presen t a t ion o n N o v e rn b e r 2 4 15? KRAI1SS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-SD0000029220 Ka 1 ey 48 1 A, Yes, she did, 2 Q, D o y ou re c a 11 the t hrust of the 3 presentation? 4 A . Basics 1 .1. y 11 was a n o u t. .1 ,i r> e o f the 5 research p r o g r a m t h a t E P A .i. s under t a. k i. n g to addres s 6 t h e g u e s t i o ri of dioxin toxic i t y , 7 Q , D1 d it have any t h i. n g to do w i. t: h PCBs? 8 A . I believe s h e m e n t i o n e d t h e o u t .1 .i n e -- 9 yes, i. t d i. d , She m e n t i. o n e d the o u 11 ine of her .1 0 specific research to ad d r es s tha t guestion , .1 1 Q, What did sh e s a y ? .1 2 A .S hi e b a sic a .1.1 y s a i d 11) a t 1) e r .1 a b o r a t ory 1 3 w a sdoing res ear c hi t o i nvesti g a he the 1 4 a p p ro p riate n e ss and the possible mag nitude of T E Fs 1 5 for PCBs. 1 6 Q . Is t h at t hi e e x t e n t of hi e r com wen t s ? 1 7 A . Wi thi regard to PCBs, I be 1 ieve 1.1 is, .1 8 yes . 1 9 Q . Anyone else that was there t hi a t day t h a t 2 0 you w o u .1 d indicate as being on t h\ e p a riel from E P A ? 2 1 A, You asked me who else was o n t he panel? 2 2. Q. Yes, 23 A . I believe Eric Bret t hi a uer, 2 4 B-R-E-T-T-H-A-U-E-R, I b e 1 i. e v e , I think Peter i KRAIISS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029221 Ka1ey 49 ]. Preuss was on t hi e panel , P - R - E - U - S - S . And I be .1 i e v e 2 William Farland, F-A-R-L-A-N-D, was on the panel. 3 There may have been others. And I think P r euss may 4 or may not have been on the panel. He was cer tain1y 5 there . 6 Q - P r e u s s , P e t e r P r e u s s you s a i d ? 7 A . Yes. He may have bee n t h e modera tor. I 8 don't know if he act u a 11y sat o n t li e panel o :r n o t , 9 Q. These were all E P A people? 1 0 A. Yes. .1 1. Q . Now, y o u said, to your- unde r s t a nd i ng , 1 2 c ertain people have suggested t h at T E F s o r P C B s 1 3 should be developed? 1 4 A. I don't know if I would use th e ter m 1 5 "should." I think it is a question w hic h p e o p1e a r e 1 6 1 o o k. i n g at. 1 7 Q . Who are th e people w h o are looking at 18 it? 1 9 A . The m o s t notable, a n d t he one t h a t ' s 2 0 done the most on it is a Dr, Steven Safe, S - A -- F - E . 2 .1. Q Where is D :r. Safe? 2 2 A , I believe he is at T e x as A &M, 23 Q W1) o e 1 s e ? 2 4 A , Aside from Dr. Birnbaum, I t h 1. n k he is KRA1ISS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029222 Ka 1ey 50 ]. probably the most. -- the only one I c a ri re a .1 1 y spe a k 2 of , 3 Q . You said e a rlier some people had 4 suggested a TEF for PCRs? 5 A . Yes . 6 Q What TEF had they suggest e d f o r PC B s? 7 A , Wei .1 , o b v 1. o u s 1 y it de p e n d s o n t h e 8 congener. It is one of the 209 possible P C B s , The 9 p ar ticu 1 ar TEF is b as e d on a congener-by-congener 1 0 e s t i m a t. e . S o t h a t the number v a r .ies dep e n d .i n g o n 1 1 w h i. c h P C B s a per s on i. s t a .1 k i. n g a bout , 1 2 MR. COHEN: Let's take a .13 t wo--mi n u.t e break at t h i. s po int. , 1 4 (Whereupon, a short r e c e ss was 1 5 taken. ) .1 6 BY MR. COHEN: 17 Q. 1 8 s i r? How many congeners are there for PCBs, .1. 9 A . 209 . 2 0 Q Would all 209 have been in v o1v e d in t he 2 1 products t h a. t were used a s d i e 1 e c t; r i c f 1. u. j. d ? 22 A . 11 i s u n .1 .i k e 1 y . 2 3 Q < Is that because some o f t h e m a. re so 2 4 heavily chlorina t e d t ha t they would unlikely ha ve KR A U S S , KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-SD0000029223 Ka ley 81 1 been produced in the process? 2 MR. M A L I N : Objection to the 3 form of the question. If you can 4 understand that, g o ah e ad . 5 THE WITNESS: That's part of 6 .i t . P a r t of i t .i s t h e p r e f erred 7 subst.i. t u 11 on p a 11. e .r n s for the ch 1 o r 1 n a t i. o n 8 of biphenyls. 9 BY MR, COHEN; .1 0 Q . Now, when you say "the preferred 1 1 substitution p a t terns," by who m i s t h e subst i. t u t i. o n .1. 2 p a tterris preferred? 1 3 A, By t h e god of chemistry, I guess, I 1 4 m e a n i. t 1. s a. c h e m i. c a 1 thermodyn a m i c a n d. k ,i. n e t i. c .1. 5 determina t i on determined by physic a 1 .1 a ws , J. 6 Q , It .is something that happens really .1 7 o utside of t h e control of the m anufacturer to soue .1. 8 e x t e n t ? .1 9 A, That's correct. 2 0 Q . So that the congener s w j. .11 cr ea.te 2 .1 themselves in the manufacturing process? 2 2 A. I mean within -- w h at I interpret your 2 3 meaning to be, t h e answer .i s yes , 2 4 Q . And i. n the manufacturing process you KRAL1SS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029224 Ka 1 ey 52 1 produce a product to a desired degree of 2 chloriTiat, i o n t h a t. con t a .ins m a n y congene r s of varying 3 degrees of chlorination and vary i. n g p a tterns of ' 4 s u bstitution? 5 A. That's corre ct, 6 Q , Which congeners would you believeit wa s 7 unlikely would be 1 n the mamit a during of P C B s ? 8 A. I'm not sure I'm prepared to answer tha t 9 as I sit here . I would t h i n lc t h a t s u b s t i t u 11. o n , 1 0 w h a t ' s o a 1 1 e d 11) e m e t a , M -- E - T -- A , p o s .i t .i o n a r e among 1 1 the less 1 i. k e 1 y t o b e p r oduced, 1 2 Q , What is me t a p o s .i t ion? 1 3 A , T h a t.'s a s y o u goa r o u n d t he ring, ]. 4 those -- there's four positions t h a t. are not n e x t t o 1 5 the c a rbon carbon bond, but the p o s 1t i. o n s adjace n t 1 6 t o t hose. 1 7 Q You want to make ah drawing for me a nd 1 8 11 t o me? .1. 9 A , I can do t h a t , 2 0 Q - Here's a pie c e of paper, 2 1 A . (Witness complies,- ) 2 2 Biphenyl 1s 2 6-m e m bered r i n g s with 2 3 chlorine a t the corners of the h e x a g o n s , The 2 2 4 positions c 1 o s e s t to t h e c. arbon c a r b o n 1) ond are KRAU8S, KATZ Si ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-SD0000029225 K a Ley 53 1 c a .1 1 e d the ortho posi tio n s . The p o s i t .i o n s o n e 2 position away from those, the Eon r p o s i t i ons a r e t. h e 3 meta positions. A n d the posi t i o n s at the opp o s .i t e 4 ends from the bond are the para positions. 5 Q Now, you s a i <5 the meta pos i t i o n s are 6 1 :i. k. e 1 y t o b e p r o d u c e d ? 7 A . T h a t ' s correct. 8 Q - W h a t wou Id they be known as? 9 A . I ' m sorry, 1 0 Q - What i. s the congener.' known as ? 1 1 A . Well , those position s a r e -- if y o u a r e 1 2 numbering, those positions ar e t he numbers 3, 5 , 3 ' , 1 3 5', So that any congener with those numerical 1 4 notations would, in genera 1 , and I'm ta .1.king i. n 1. 5 gene r a .1 .i t i e. s h e re, not s p e c i f i c ally, b u t t h o s e a r e 1 6 less likely to be produced than materials with .1. 7 chlorines at the or t h o and p a r a pos .i t ions , 1 8 Q Now, to be at the m e t a p ositio n, woul d .1. 9 t h a t m e a n it wo u1d h a v e to be a t a 1.1 4 , t h a t .i s , 3 2 0 5 and 3 ' , 5 ' ? 2 1 A . No . 2 2 Q - S o , any at t a c h m e nt a t 3 or 5 o r 3 ' o :r 5 2 3 would be less likely to be produced? 2 4 A . Relatively s p e a k .i n g , yes. K R A t.J S S , KATZ R ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029226 Ka 1 ey 54 1 Q, How about 2 3 7 8 ? 2 A . That's not -- thath a s nothing to do w i t hi 3 biphenyls. 4 Q. Pa rdon? 5 A . T h a t designatio n has nothing t o d o w :i t hi 6 biphenyls . 7 Q . No, i t h a s to do wit hi t hi e c h .1o r .i n e 8 attachments ; r .1 g h t ? 9 A. But not t o bipheny1s , 1 0 Q , No t t o bipheny 1 s ? .1. .1. A . That ' s correct , 1 2 Q , To wha t ? 1 3 A, Well, to -- mostly it is mo s t often us e d 1 4 with r espect t o t. h e chlorinated diox i n s , .1. 5 Q . W hi a t woul d b e a cop .1 a n a r c. h .1 o r i n a t e d .1 6 biphenyl? 1 7 A, It would be -- as the term is used, it's .1. 8 one withi no substitution at any o f: t h e ortho 1 9 positions . 2 0 Q That's it? 2 1 A . That's it. 2 2 Q < So, it could be 2378? 2 3 A . No. It could n o t , 2 4 Q . I'm sorry. KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN WATER PCB-SD0000029227 Ka 1ey 1 A , T he 2 3 7 8, t; h e PCB d e sign a t. i o n s a r e 2 2 t h rough 5 on one ring. and 2' -- I'm sorry, 2 3 through 6 o n one ring, and 2 ' t h r o u g h 6 ' o n t h e 4 o t h e r r ii. n g , 5 Q I ' .1 .1 - 6 A . 11 i s a d i ffer e n t n u m b e r i n g s y s t e m t h a t 7 i s u s e d f o r the dioxin s 0 Q 9 3'? I under sland. 11 c o u .1 d. be 2, 3 and 2', ]. 0 A , It c e r t; a inly c o u .1 d b e t; h a t , .1. 1 Q . T hat would be copla ti a r ? 1 2 A , No . It would not. 1 3 Q - It would not be? 1 4 A , No . 1 5 Q Give me examples of cop1 ana r, then , 1 6 A . W e 1.1 , it cannot have a number 1. n t h e 1 7 or 6 position t o be coplanar. 1 8 Q , It; cannot have a. number 1 n 2 or 6 ? 1 9 Number t h e in a 1.1 for me, 2 0 A, I'm doing that. For it to be coplanar, 2 .1 it c a n ri o t h a v e chlorine subs t i t u t. ion i n a n y o f; t h e 2 2 2 , 2 ' , 6, or 6 ' positions, 2 3 MR, COHEN: Mark that as P-2 for 2 4 me, please, KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-SD0000029228 K a, 1 e y 56 1 (Whereupon, the e x hibit was 2 marked P - 2 for iden t 1 f i c a tion . ) 3 BY MR. COHEN: 4 Q . Would you agree that your p r o d u c t .i o n 5 P C B s contained co planar PCBs? 6 A . I don't know specific a 1 .1 y , I h a v e n ' t 7 .1 ooke d a t t hat specif i c. a 11 y . 8 Q Wa s t hi e r e someo n e t h e r e a t t hi e m e e t i n g 9 on November 15, 19 9 1 o t. h e r than yourself from 1 0 M o n s a r t o C ompany v 1 1 A , No . 1 2 Q - Y o u were the only person? 1 3 A , Yes , 14 Q W e r e you asked whether your p r o d u c tio n 1 5 PCBs conta 1 n e d c oplanar PCBs ? 1 6 A . No . 1 7 Q H a v e you ever been asked whether the 1 8 prod uction PCBs contained coplanar P C B s ? 1 9 A , Not that I c a n recall. 2. 0 Q . Are you aware whether your product, i o n 2 1 P C B s c. o ntairied cop 1 a n a r PCBs? 2 2 A , I have looked at liter a. t u. r e w h 1. c h 2 3 a ddresses t h at. 2 4 Q . Where does that .literal: u re ex .i s t ? KRAIJSS , KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-SD0000029229 Kaley 57 ]. A . I don ' t understand your que s t ion, .1 2 guess , 3 Q Well, you said y o u have looked a t it. 4 Where i. s it.? 5 A . It is in journals, s c. i e n t .i f i c jo u r n a .1 s 6 Q Where have you seen those j o ur n a Is? 7 A . I don'1 t: even know. I in e a n I a s s u in e a t 8 Monsanto, 9 Q Well , is t. h a t w 1) e r e you s a w s o in e o f 1 0 th era, if not all of the m ? 1 .1 A . Certainly , J. 2 Q Can you today give me a .r eference in a 1 3 journa1 d e a 1 i n g with the pres ence of c o p1 an a r P C B s .1 4 in p r o d. uction P C B s ? .1. 5 A . N o t specifically, no. 1 6 Q Y o u ha v e s uc h i. n f or ma tion a v a i 1 a b .1. e t o 1 7 you back in your office? 1. 8 A . Well, I have p r o b a b .1 y a t 1 e a st o n e p a p e r 1 9 which purports to have done a congener-by-congener 2 0 analysis of certain P C B products, and if the 2 1 coplanars were t h e r e , i t w o u .1 d have repor t e d 1: h a t . 2 2 Q , W h o w r ote that? 2 3 A. I don't know. 2 4 MR. COHEN; I'm going to ask KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029230 K a ley 1 you , Doctor, to g e t together t o t h e bes 2 o f your a b i. 1 i t y a 1 1 of the journals a n d 3 a r t i c1e s and other p u b1ications y c; u a r e 4 aware of that discuss the presence of 5 coplanar P C B s in commercial P C B 6 p r epara tions and advise your counsel w h e n 7 y o u have done so, 8 MR. M A L I. N ; Doctor, are all of 9 t h e s e -j ournals pub .11 c 1 y a va .i .1 able, the 1 0 j ou r n a 1s t hat dis cuss -- 1 1 THE WITNESS: Yes, they a re . 1 2 MR. MALIN: A v a 1. .1 a b 1 e to t h e 1 3 s c i e nti f ic c o rn m u n i t y ? 1 4 MR. COHEN: Are you going to .1. 5 condu c t t h i s d e p o s .i ti on or - 1 6 MR. M A I, IN ; Answer the question, 1 7 Doctor, Are they aval .1 a b .1 e t o t h e 18 scient i. f i c com m u n 1 t y ? 1 9 THE WITNESS; Yes, they are, 2 0 BY MR. COHEN: 2 1 Q . How would one go about 1o o kin g for them, 2 2 D o c t or? 23 A . If I were -- presumably one wouId do a 2 4 1 i. t e i' a t u r e search. KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-SD0000029231 Ka 1 ey 59 1 Q What would one look under? 2 A . I f I were to do .it, I guess I would .look 3 u. nder c o m p o s .i. t ion or I g u ess I wo u 1 d .look under 4 composition and P C B s . 5 Q, Composition and PCBs ? 6 A , Yes. 7 Q Anything more specific tha n th a t, 8 Doctor? I might get thousands of a r t i. e les , 9 A . I g u e s s you could throw in th e word 1 0 c o n g e n e r and see if t h a t J. 1. mited i t , .1. .1 <3 . How about cop.1 a nar ? Wou.1 d t ha t h e 1 p? 1 2 A, That might help. B ut the one s t h a t 1 3 report all the congeners probably a r e n o t. 1 4 necessarily s p e c 1. f i c a 1. 1 y targeted for cop .1 a a a. r s . 1 5 Q What is stereochemicals? 1 6 A , W e 11. , stereo chemical bas i. ca. 11 y 1 s 1 7 terrs , a genera 1 term which r e1a t<s s to t h e way 1 8 molecules arrange themselves three-dimension a 1 .1 y , 1 9 Q- Are dioxins and polychlorinated dibenzo 2 0 furans stereochemicals? 2 1 A. Under certain definitions they are, 2. 2 2 3 Q. How about PCBs? 2 4 A. I'm sorry, I thought that was your KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029232 Ka 1ey 60 1 first question . I'm sorry, I may h ir v e 2 misunderstood the first question, 3 Q. I asked you about dioxins and turans, 4 A . Dioxins and furaris are pretty muc.h 5 ste r eochemicals . They a r e s t e r e o c h e m .i. e a 1 i s o m e r s o r 6 st ereoisomer s, yes. 7 Q. How about PCEs ? Is your answer in 8 certain c i r c u ni stances they a. r e ? 9 A . Yes. 1 0 Q . What circumstances? 1 1. A . Well, i t ;j u s t depends on h o w f r e e 1 y o n e 1 2 wants to interpret t he term ste r eoisomer and how 1 3 freely one w a n t s t o s a y t h e y t e rid to .look a like in .1 4 t hree d i. mensio n s . 1 5 Q Well, who do you know who contends t h a t 1 6 PCBs are i.n cer tain circumstances s t.ereochemica 1 s ? 1 1 A . Well, certainly Steve Safe does for o n e , 1 8 Q. Does Mens ant o? .1. 9 A. It is a degree -- it is a matter of 2 0 d.e gr ee . I mean the argument could be there. 11 i. s 2 1. not a yes or no question. There are arguments which 2 2 say t h a t PCBs can b e s t ereo .i. some r s o f t h e d 1 o x i n s 2 3 and furans, but the degree of stereoisomerity is 2 4 much less for PCBs than 1t is for those other KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER_PCB-SD0000029233 Ka 1ey 61 1 materia1 s . 2 Q. But you do agr ee that to some ex t e nt 3 Monsanto would contend that P C B s are stereoisomers? 4 A . I can't speak for Monsanto. I'm 5 speaking f o r myse I f and my under s t a n d i n g o t t h e 6 Iite ra ture in t h a t positio n. Yes, I t hink t here a re 7 cert a in circ u mstances w h e re t h a t a. r g u m e n t c ould be 8 made on a t ti eo r e t .i c a .1 basis, 9 Q . w o u 1 d t h a t b e c e r t a i. n congeners of P C B s ? .1 0 A. Yes, it would. 1 1 Q Which ones? 1 2 A . T h e coplanar congeners. 1 3 Q Can you g i. v e me some exam p 1 e s , if no t 1 4 all the examples, of coplanar isomers ? 1 5 A . Well, there are 4 that, are general .1 y 1 6 considered cop 1 a ri a r . 1 7 Q What are t, h e y .1. 8 A . The 3, 4, 3 ' , 19 Q 3, 4 , 3 ' , 4 ' ? 2 0 A . 3, 4, 5. 2 1 Q - 3, 4, 5? 22 A . 3 ' , 4 ' . 2 3 Q - No 5 ' ? 2 4 A . Not yet. KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029234 Kaley 62 1 Q Okay , 2 A. 3 4 5 3' 4' , 5* 3 Q So, you have 3, 4, 5 , 3 , 4 and 3, 4, 5, 4 3 ' , 4 ' , 5'? 5 A . Now, I think t h e r e ' s a no t her one t h a t 6 some p e o p 1 e use, and I t h ink that's -- 1 t i. s one of 7 t h e trichloro s , I c ouldn ' t be spec! f .ic abou t t h e 8 .1. a s t one. I think i. t 1 s one of t h e t r i. c hlor o s , a n d 9 t h a t * s generally i r> these discuss :i o n s i g n o red 1 0 anyway. The three I have listed are the ones that 1 1 a r e mos t g e n e r a .1.1 y s p o k e n a b o u t .i n t h e s e 1 2 d. i. s c u s s i o n s , .1 3 Q . You said it. is one of the trichlo r o s , 1 4 the 3, 4, 5s? Wouldn't they be -- 1 5 A . I think i t is 4 , 3 ' 4 ' -- I'm sorry, 3 , 1 6 4 , 4 ' maybe. That may be what it 1 s , It on I y h a. s 3 1 7 chlorines. All the others have 4 , Ac t ua 1.1 y , i t ma y 1 8 be 3, 4, 5 , 4 ' . .1. 9 Q , Well, you got me confused, 2 0 A . Good. I'll sorry, I t i s c. o n f using, 2 1 L et's -- t, h e 3 that I have given y o u a re t h e 3 t h a t 2 2 are c o n s 1 d e r e d. by the p e o p 1. e .1 ooki n g a t t. h i s 2 3 question the most important. The other one is 2 4 typically ignored anyway. KRAdSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029235 Ka 1ey 63 1 Q, That's a trichlorobipheny1 -- 2 A , That's my reco 1. 1 e c t. i on . 3 Q . A x' e these all biphenyls we are talkin g 4 about ? 5 A . These are 3 of. the 2 09 congeners of 6 chlorinated biphenyls, 7 Q . How about things .1 i k e q u a r t e rbiphenyls ? 8 A r e they eve r s t e r e oche fit i c a Is? 9 A . I ' m s u r e t hey a re s t e r e o c h e m .i c a .1 s o f: 1 0 s o m e thing, but not -- .1. .1. Q. Not a dioxin or a fura n ? 1 2 A . No, s 1. r . 1 3 Q . S oin e o t hi ex- compound ? 1 4 A , If any, yes. 1 5 Q . Do you know if a n y of the q u a r terpheriy 1 s 1 6 or a n y of the terpheny 1 s ht a. v e any o f the s o c o p 1 a. n a. r .1. 7 config ura tio n? 1 8 A. I mean withou t being rude, it is a .1. 9 m eaningless question f o r t ht o s e k i. n d. s of che m 1 c a 1 s , 2 0 Q , Just c a n't h a p p e. n ? 2 1 A , Not i n t ht e sense we are t. a 1 k. i. ng ab o ut 2 2 it, no. 23 Q 2 4 why. Becaus e o f the p o s .i t ioriing -- t, e 1.1 m e KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029236 Kaley 64 1 A . Because t h e r e ' s more than 2 rings, 2 Q What are t he o t her c h a. r a c terist i. cs of a 3 c oplana r: ? 4 A . I d o n ' t unders a rid the qu e s t .i on . 5 Q Well, isn't i. t generally believed that a 6 so coplanar P C B is s o r t o f f .1 a t. .i n i t s 7 configurati.on? 8 A . By definition, that's w h a t c o p1 a n a r 9 means . 10 Q . Iri other- w o r d s ,t h e 2 pheny .1 s do not 1 l ro ta t e wit h r espect to e ach o t h e r ? 12 A, That 1s not true. They do rota te w.1th .1. 3 respectto each other, but they c a n i. n t h o s e 1 4 rota t i. ons assume a c o p 1 a n a r conf .ig u r a t .i o n , 1 5 Q. So, they can be in many different 1 6 p o s j. t i o ri s , i ri a luding c o p .1 a n a r ? 1 7 A . T h a. t ' s exactly r i. gh t , .1. 8 Q I f t h e y were not c. h.lor.in a t e d i n a way 1 9 t h e y could be coplanar, they won 3. d have never 20 in t h e i r rota t i. ons f o r rn a planar o :r cop 1 a n a r 2 1 configu r at .i. on; is t h a t correct? 2 2 A , That's the t h e o r y . 2 3 Q . That's 13i e theory? 2 4 A . Never is a big w o r (3 . KRATJSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-SD0000029237 Kaley 65 ]. Q D o y o u know anybody else w h o cons i d e i's 2 PCBs to be s t e r e o i s ome r s o t h e r t h a n Safe p 3 MR . MALIN : Object to t h e form 4 o f the the q ue s 11. o n . Stereoisomers o f 5 what? But you c a ri a n s w e' r i t i f you can 6 u n d e r s t a. n d i t , 7 BY MR. COHEN: 8 Q Dioxins and f u r a. n s ? 9 A, I'm sure there are lots of o t h e r s in t h e 1 0 1 i. t e r ature, I'm sure L i. n d a Birnbaum does, 1 1. Q . Now, do you bel .i e v e t h a t y o u r 1 2 c o mm er c i a 11 y-p r e par ed PCBs that were used tor 1 3 die1ectrio fluid s o o ntained cop1 a n a r P C B s ? 1 4 MR. MAT, IN: Objection to the .1 5 form of theq u e s t i o n , Answer .it .if y o u 1 6 c an u.ti ders t and i: t. . 1 7 THE WITNESS: I believe that 1.8 they probably conta ined some of them a.t 1 9 extreme 1 y low .1 eve 1 s . 2.0 BY MR. COHEN: 2 1 Q . What .levels do you believe we are 22 s eaking of? 23 A, I would ha ve to put on the record I ' m 2 4 guessing, but I w o u .1 d g uess it is p r o b a b .1 y i. r t. h e 1 KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-SD0000029238 Ka 1ey 66 1 to 10 pa r t p e r million. But t hat's s t .r i c t .1 y a 2 guess , 3 Q , Did you ever h e a r anyone represeri t t h a t 4 they c ontained levels as high a s 2 per cent? 5 A . Of the cop 1 an ar? 6 Q 7 A . I hav e not h e ard that, no. 8 Q . How about 1 percent? 9 A . I d o n ' t h a v e a r e c o 1.1 e c. t .i o n of ever 1 0 he a ring that, no. ]. 1 Q Which congeners would i t 1) e t h a t woul d .1 2 be - - is the r e any o t h e r n a m e o .r d. e s c r i pt i on f o r t h e 1 3 conge ne r o t li e r t. h a n w h a t w e h a v e b e e n d i s c U s s i n g / 1 4 t h a t i. s , 3, 4 , 3 ' , 4 ' ; 3 , 4 , 5 , 3 4 ' ; 3 , 4, S 3 ' 1 5 4 ' 5 ' ? Do you have an y ot h er name s ? J. 6 A , The only other n a me I woul d. t h i n k o t: .1. 7 w o u .1 d b e 1.1) e non ortho - s u 1) s t i t u t e d , which is kind of 1 8 j u s t. ano t h e r w a y of saying w h a. t we have a 1 r e a d. y been .1. 9 saying, A s i d e f r o rn that, I can' t t h i n k o f a n y 2 0 other, 21 Q, Nonort h o-subs tituted what, PCBs ? 2 2 A, Yes, 2 3 Q Do you know of anyone who has don e a n y 2 4 a n a 1 y s i s of your d i elec t r i c. f 1 u i. d to de t e r m ine the KRA11SS, KATZ fi ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-SD0000029239 K a .1. e y 67 1. level of s o - c a .1 1 ed nonortho-subs t i tuted P C B s ? 2 A , I don't know anyone that specif i c. a. J. 1 y 3 1 o o k e d a t t. h o s e . 4 Q H as Mo nsanto? 5 A . Not to my knowledge. 6 Q What makes you think i t. ' s i. n the. 7 w h a tever you said, 5 pa rts per m .i .1 .1 i on ra n ge ? 8 A . I'm just guessing. I told you t h a t ' s 9 just a very -- the v a g u e s t of guesses b a s e d o n s o rn e 1 0 o t: t h a t 1 i. t e r a t u re we t a 1 k. e d a b o u t e a r 1 i. e r . I don' t. 1 1 r e ni e in b e r any number specific a 1.1 y , b u t I w o u .Id - - my 1 2 r e c o 1 J. e c t ion, a s w e a. k a s it i. s , i. t i s very .1 o w 1 3 .1. e v e 1 s . 1 4 Q - W e 11 , a i' e you jus t g u e ssing o :r i s t li a t 15 1 6 A . I re a .1 1 y a rn b a sic a .1.1 y j u s t guessing . I 1 7 t. old y o u t hat. 1 8 Q - Do you kn o w anybody who has a c t u a 1.1 y 1 9 done tests and published da t a. ? 2 0 A ,, lean n o t - - it has been done. A s I s i t. 2 1 here today, I can't give you a researcher's name, 22 no , 2 3 Q , Do you know anybody who has inf o r m a t .i o n 2 4 o n t h e t. o x i c prope r ti.es of the so J KRAUSS; KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-SD0000029240 Ka 1ey 68 1 nonortho-substituted P C B s ? 2 A .Other than p o s s :i b .1 y S t e v e ri S a f e , I m e a n 3 Iknow h e ha s loo k ed at t hat g u estion, 4 does have some, yes. I assume he 5 Q . Hav e y o u h a d a n o p p o r t u n i t y to r e a (3 t h a t 6 s ec t 1 onof t he Federa 1 Register t. ha t wa s apparen t ly 7 incorrectly r e f e. r r e d to e a r 1 i e r i n M :r . I n n e 1 .1 i ' s 0 1 e 11 e r ? 9 MR, MALIN ; 0 b j e c t t o t he f: o r m 1 0 of the questio n, ]. 1 THE WITNESS: I guess I don't 1 2 k now which r e f erence we a r e t a 1 k i. n g .1. 3 about. So, I don't know the a n swer t o 1 4 that . 1 5 BY MR. COHEN: 1 6 Q . Well, have y o u see n V o .1 u me 56, N u m b e r 1 7 19 6 of the Federal Register for Wednesday, 0 c t o be r 1 8 9 , 19 9 1? 1 9 A . Wi tli out s e eing i t and ge 11 .i ng an i (3 ea o f 2 0 what i t says, I c a. n't s p e c 1. f i. c, a 1 1 y answer t h a. t 2 1 question. 22 Q . Did y o u par t icip a te in w h a t t) as be e n 2 3 called the Banbury Conference? 24 A , I did not, KRAIJSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-SD0000029241 Ka 1ey 69 ]. Q. Did Monsanto have a representa 15ve in 2 the Banbury Conference? 3 A , No . 4 Q. Did Monsanto t h r o u g h the CMA h a v e a 5 r e p r esentative in the Banbury C o n f e r e n c e ? 6 A . X do not -- 7 MR. M A LIN : Objection to the 8 form of the q u e s ti on . Answer the ques t .i o n 9 i f you c a. n . 3 0 THE WITNESS: I don' t b e1ie v e 11 so, 1 2 BY MR. COHEN: .1 3 Q , Have you seen anything pub.l i s h e (3 f r o m 1 4 the B a n bu r y Con f e r e n c e ? 1 5 A . Yes. 1 6 Q . What h a v e you seen? 1. 7 A . There's a book of proceedings. 18 Q 1 9 PCBs ? Is there anythin g i. n there re g a r d i. n g 2 0 A . I don't recall specifically, I wou1d b e 2 1 s u r p r i. s e d if the r e isn't. 2 2 Q . W h e n was t ti e book p u b 1 i s h e (3 ? 2. 3 A , Recently, Last - - the .1 a s t 3 o r 4 2 4 m o n t. h s . KRAIJSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN , INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029242 K a .1. e y 70 1 Q Do y o xi have a copy of i t in your office? 2 A , Yes, I do , 3 Q What '' s i. t c a .1 1 e d ? 4 A . P a r t o f i t i s t h e proceed!, n g s o f t h e 5 B a ri b xi r y Confe re nee on -- it is s o m e t hi .i n g to do w .i t hi 6 m echani s m o f d 1 o x i n t o x i c i t y , Those aren't the 7 exact words. a Q . Who is the p u b 1 .i s h e r ? 9 A , Cold S p r i. n g Harbor Press. 1 0 Q . W h e r e a r e t hi e y .1 o c a t e d ? 1 1 A . C o 1 d Spring Harbor,I. o n g I s 1 a n d , New 1 2 York . 3 3 Q . I s t. h i s p u b 1 i c a t ion available t o any o n e 1 4 who wanted to buy it? 1 5 A. Yes . 1. 6 Q What's .1 t cost? .1 7 A . I b e 1 .i e v e i t i s a b out $100. 1 8 Q . How large of a document is i. t ? 1 9 A . II is a book a b o xi t an inch t h i c k , 2 0 Q I s it bo u n d ? 2 3. A . Yes, it 5s, 2 2 Q Yo xx don't re c a 11 wh e t.h er i. t discusses 2 3 anything regcxrding PCBs? 2 4 A , I don't r e cal 1 s p e c 1. f i. c a 11 y n o , KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029243 Ka1 ey 71 .1. Q . Doyou know anyone who was a participa n t 2 a t the Banbury Conference? 3 A . Do I know anyonepersonally? 4 Q Yes . 5 A . That I could walkup a n d s a y "Hi, how 6 are you? " 7 Q. Yes. 8 A , N o t r e a 11 y , 9 Q . Do you know anyone by name who was a 1 0 p a r t i c i. p a n t in the Banbury Conference? 1. 1 A . I know lots of people by na me who were 1 2 t h e r e, yes, .1. 3 Q, Have you r e a d the pub1ica tio n ? 1 4 A. I have read p a r t s o f it, 1. 5 Q. Would you agree t hat t he publicstio n 1 6 supports the cone 1. usion that t here was gen era..1. 1 7 agreement a t t.he Ba nbury Conference in ce:r ta .in ar ea s 1 8 of dioxin toxicity? For example, h u m a n a n d. 1 9 experim e n t a 1 animals r e s p o n d to dio xin 2 0 s 1 m i 1 a r 1. y ? 2 .1. MR. MALIN: Objection to the 2 2 f o r m of the the q uestion. Y o u c an answer 2 3 t. h e question if you unders t and it. 2 4 THE WITNESS; I understand that KPAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029244 Kaley 72 .1 people h a v e said there was consens us o n 2 those points in general t. e r ms , but there's 3 also a great deal of ongoing con trove r s y 4 about whether there was con s e ns u s or no t 5 and about w h a t. the r e in a y or m a y not h a v e 6 been consensus on, 7 BY MR. COHEN: 0 Q . So, you a r e sa yin g t hat you a g r e e that 9 t h e r e was consensus on that poi n t ; however, t; here is .1. 0 a disp u t e as to w he ther there was c o n sensus? 1 1 A , I w o u1d say t ha t t here is consensus on 1. 2 th a t po in t t o t h e e 1. f ec t. that my und er s t a nd .i ng i s 1 3 t h a t t h e p e o p 1 <s at t h e c o n f e r ence b a s e d more on what 1 4 they have said si nee, r a ther t h a n on what t h e book 1 5 says, that people believe that the toxi.ci.ty of 1 6 d i ox i ri i s m ed .i a t ed by a r eceptor, a cel .1 u.1 ar 1 7 receptor, and t h a t .i. n t hat sense the d i. o x i n i. s 1 8 similar for- both -- I'm sorry, the t o x 1 c i t y .i s 1 9 similar f o r h u m a n s and a n .i. mats, and t h a t the d i. o x i n 2 0 toxicity is mediated through the same mechanism, 2 .1. Q . What do you mean, "the toxic .i. t. y i. s 2 2 media t e d through" -- 2 3 A. Exercised, expressed, 2 4 Q , You mean it: occurs i n the same w a y ? KRATJSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029245 Kaley 1 A . For certain of the toxic .i t ies , if no t 2 a 11, yes. 3 Q . W h i c. h toxic i t ies in parties .1 a r ? 4 A , I don't, even know which ones t h e y were 5 talking abo u t . I think t h e y we r e t a .1 k i ri g a b o u t -- I 6 guess they were looking at i in m unotoxi c i t y , 7 I-M-M-U-N-O, toxicity. I'm not so sure about 8 carcinogenicity, I be .1 ieve probably neurotox i e i. t y , 9 T h o s e a r e t ti e ones t h a t I recall being a d d r e s s e d , 1 0 Q , How about enzyme i. n d u c. t ion? 1 1 A . Yes. I would agree t. h a t t hat w a s o n e of 1 2 t h e t h i n g s t h e y a g r e e d on. 1 3 Q . Rep r od vctive t o x i c .i t y ? 1 4 A . Maybe, I d o n ' t recall s p e c i. f i c. a 1.1 y 1. 5 Q - D e v e 1 o p m e n t a .1 toxicity? 1 6 A . Again, in a ybe . I don't reca11 1 7 specific a 11y, 1 8 Q . If the F e d e r a 1 Regis t e. r repor t e d. 1 9 c arcinogen i. city as being one i. n which the ef fe c ts of 2 0 humans can be anticipa ted by e f e c t s o b serve d i n 2 1 experim e n t a. .1. animals, w o u Id you d i. s a g r e e or agree or 2 2 say y ou don't recal .1 ? 2 3 A , If the Federal. -- 2 4 MR. M A LIN : 0 b -j e c. t to the form KRAfJSS . KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-SD0000029246 Ka 1ey 74 .1 of t he the question. Answer th e question 2 if y o u u n d. e rstand i t . 3 THE WITNESS: .If the Federal 4 Register said i. t. , the Federal Register 5 said it, I don't know specific a 11y w h a t 6 they s aid about carcinogenicity, So, I 7 o an't. really agree or dis a g r e e . 8 By MR, COHEN: 9 Q . So, you are saying you don't: reca 1 .1 wha t 1 0 the p u b 1. i. c a t i. o n s t a. t. e s regarding 11: a t form of .1. 1 t o x i c i t y ? 1 2 A . That's correct:. I mentioned earlier' I 1 3 thought it was addressed. I don't re c a 11 1 4 speci f i c a 11 y what it s t a t e s as I s i t: here now, 1 5 Q , Do you recall whether t he public a. t i. o n 1 6 s t: a t. e d that: certain s t. e r e o c. h e m i c a 1 s havi n g s i m .i 1 a r 1 7 molecu .1. a r s t r uctu r e to dioxi.ii may 1) e h a v e the s a me as 1 8 dioxin? For- ex a mple, c e rtai n polychlo r i riated a n d 1 9 poly b r o m i n a t e d dibenzo f u r a n s , p o J. y c h 1 o r i n a t e d a n d 2 0 polybrominated dibenzo-p-diox ins, and c o p1 a n a r 2 1 c h 1 o r i. nated biphenyls? 22 A. I don't recall specifically. That 2.3 doesn ' t s u r p ri.se me t h a t it w o u Id have s a. i. d t: h a t , 2 4 Q . Do you know if Monsanto C o in pany t. a k e s a KRAIISS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029247 Kaley 75 1 position with respect to a ri y of the published 2 conclusions of. the Banbury Conference? 3 MR. M A LI N : O b j e c t t o t he f o r rn 4 of the question. Answer the question if 5 y o u t h ink y o u u n c3 e r s t a n d i t . 6 THE WITNESS: I do not believe 7 Monsanto t a k e s a p o s i tion o n t. h a t , no. 8 COHEN: 9 Q D o you? 1 0 A , Do I? :[ have my opi n i. on s . 1 1 Q . Tell me t h e rn . 1 2 A . I believe that there ' s c e r t: a 1 n 1 y good .1. 3 evidence that of much of. the toxicity of t h e diox :i n s 1 4 and furans proba b 1 y i. s med i. a. t. ed through t h e 1 5 r e c e p t or. I also believe t h a t t here are c e r t. a .i n 1 6 toxiciti.es t h a t t he evidence f o r t hat Is not so 1 7 clear-. I believe that certain of t h e PCBs , m o s t 1 8 notably, the coplanar PCBs, based on the literature, 1 9 probably do bind to that receptor w i t. h less a v i d .i t y 2 0 or less strength than dioxins, and t hat people have 2 1 reported that binding. But I think for the e n d 2 2 points of interest, there's little, i. f any, evidence 2 3 that: PCBs exhibit toxic i t y through t: h a t r ecepto r . 2 4 Q , I ' m s o r r y , what w a s t hat 1 a. s t p a r t ? K R A U SS , KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029248 K a ]. e y 76 1 A . I think there's little, if any, evidence 2 that P C B s exhibit tox i. c i. t y t h r o u g h t h e receptor. 3 Q . What evidence or m a t e r .i a Is w o u .1 d y o u 4 look to to support your last conclusion ? 5 A. I think you have to look at the w ritings 6 of people like Steve Safe who have looked at t h e s e 7 g u e s 11. o n s . 8 Q . Is Dr. Safe, to your- knowledge, working 9 o n a r e s e a. r c h grant of any kind? 1 0 A. To my knowledge, no. 1 1 Q . Dr. Safe, I think you ind i. c. a ted, i. s 1 2 located a t. T e x a s A&M? 1 3 A, Yes, sir. .1. 4 Q . Do y o u know .if the CMA con t r i b u t e s t o 1 5 Texas A & M ? 1 6 A. I don't know specifically, no, 1 7 Q . Who would know that inform a t; i. o n ? 1. 8 A. Dr. Safe. 1 9 Q. Anyone else? 2 0 A , Presumably someone at CMA -2 1 MR . M AI, IN ; CMA , 2 2 THE WITNE SS : I wouldn't even 2 3 know where to tell you t o start, 2 4 BY MR. COHEN; KR A U S S , KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029249 Kaley 77 .1. Q . Does Monsanto directly contribute to a n y 2 r e s e a r ch work now at any independent ins titutions, 3 to your knowledge? 4 A . At independent 1 nsti. tutions? 5 Q . Yes, Other than in t h e .1 r o w n 6 1 a. b o r a t ori.es? 7 A. I'm sure they do. 8 Q . Who would know who they are c. u r r e n 11 y 9 c. ontrib u ting t o ? .1. 0 A. I don't know. I don't really know. 1 1 Q . Can you point to any other d.ocument or 1 2 pxib 1 .i c a tion of any k i. nd t h a t s uppo:r t. s y our .1 a s t ]. 3 c. onclus i o n r e g a r ding t h e effect of P C B s on t ti a t. c e 3. 3. 1 4 receptor 1. h a t you were disc u s s i n g , o t her t h a n D r . 1 5 Safe? ] 6 MR. MAIjIN : Object, to the form 1 7 of the question, I don't understand i. t, 1 8 b u t t h e w 1. tness m a y answer. 1 9 THE WITNESS: Not as I sit 2 0 here. I mean he is certainly by far the 2 1 most prolif i. c w r iter o n t h a t q u e s t i o n . 2 2 BY MR. COHEN: 23 Q . Do y o u know .if D:r . Silvergeld is d o i n g 2 4 any work in that area ? KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029250 Ka 1 ey 78 ]. A . I believe s h e is not . B u t she certain1y 2 m i g h t b e . I don't know. But I b e 1.1 eve she is not 3 a t t h i s time 4 Q < H a s she in the pas t? 5 A , Well, T guess now we are get ting back to 6 what i s i t I 'm exactly answering the quest .i. o n a b o u t , 7 Q Well, do you know? 8 A . Well, looking at the receptor-mediated 9 t o x i c .i. t y , I g u e s s ., I don' t think s h e ever h a s for 1 0 PCBs. I think at some time or another she in a. y have ]. 1 for dioxin itself. 1 2 Q . Have you seen any .1 i t.eX'a ture t h a t 13 i. n d. i c a tes that, the combinat 1 on of t h e d 1 oxins wit h .1 4 PCBs in environment may enhance the toxic reaction 1 5 of either of the compounds ? 1 6 A , On the contrary. I think Steven S a f e 1 7 h a. s rep o r t e dt h a t c ombi n at ion may, i. n fact, reduce .1 8 t he toxicity o f dioxin o r reduce t h e r e s p o n s e t o 11) e 1 9 dioxin. 2 0 Q . What publication are you r e f e r rin g to, 2 1 s 1r? 2 2 A . I don't know specif i c.a 1.1 y . 11 i s a mong 2 3 h i, s w r itings of t h e last sever a 1 yea r s . 2 4 Q . Are you aware of any documents tha t KRATJSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029251 Ka 1ey 79 1 Mons a n t o h a s r e g a r ding the toxic p r o p e. r 11 e s o f 2 s o - call e d c o p1 a n a r chlorinated biphenyls? 3 A . Monsanto documents? 4 Q Yes , 5 A . No, sir. 6 Q Do you know .if Monsan t o h a s ever done 7 any researc h regarding the t. o x 1 c, i. t y of co p 1 a n a r 8 chlorinated b i p h e n y 1 s ? 9 A . I doubt 11 tha t issue has a risen sinc 1 0 w e g u i t in a n u f a c. t u ring t h e product . 11 Q 1 2 up? Do you know when the issue first: came 1 3 A . E a r,ly to mid .1. 9 8 0 s , 1 4 Q Other than Dr, Safe, can you identify 1 5 wh o has done research on the subject? 1 6 A . Well, D r . ' B i r n b a u m i s doing r e s e a r c. h 1 7 r i g h t, now. 1 8 Q. Anyone else? 1 9 A. Not that I c a n reca 11 . 2 0 Q , Do you have copies of any publ. i c a t .i. o n s 2 .1. by Dr. Birnba um ? 2 2 A , Probably, 2 3 Q . What are t h e sub jec t in a tters o f: t h e 2 4 publications that you have? KRADSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029252 Ka 1 ey 80 1 A . Probably primarily toxicity of dioxins 2 a n d fura n s . That's what o u r r esearchers have been 3 i nvolved i n for t h e last -- since I have known f o r 4 t h e last 5 yea r s o r s o , 5 Q D o y o u know the publications i n w h ictt 6 those pub 1 ications a. p p e a r ? 7 A . Not spe c i f i. c a .1 1 y , ri o . 8 Q, Can you readi 1 y access the m and ma k e 9 t hem a v a i 1 a b 1 e to Mr. M a 1 .i n ? 1. 0 A, I could find some of them fair 1 y .1. 1 readily, yes. 1 2 MR. M A LIN : Are t h e y a v a i .1 a b .1 e 1 3 f .r o in publ i. c ly-ava liable databases, 1 4 d o ctor? 1 5 THE WITNESS: Well, they are in 1 6 publ i. c 11 t erature, yes, 1. 7 MR. COHEN: Consist ent w11 h m y 18 comments e a r Her, I have nothin g m o re f o r 1 9 the Doctor- today. 2 0 MR. MAI.IN: I have no 2 1 questions. Anyone else have any 2 2 ques 1.1 on s ? 2 3 MR. BURNS: No. 2 4 MR. MCDONNELL: No. KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029253 Ka 1 ey 81 1 MR, POWELL: No, 2 (Whereupon, the deposition 3 concluded at 11:30 a , m . ) 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 .1 2 13 .1 4 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC, WATER PCB-SD0000029254 K a. 1 e y 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that t h e proceedings and 3 e v i d e n c e noted a r e contained fully a n d. a. c e u. rate .1 y i n 4 the not e s ta ken by me on the deposition of the above 5 m a 1.1 e r , and that t h i s 1 s a c o r r e c t t r a n s c r i pt of t h e 6 sa me . 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 1 6 (T h e foregoing c e rtific a t. i o n o f t hi i s 1 7 t ran script does no t app1y to any re p roduc tion o f the 1 8 s a m e b y any means, u riles s under the d i r e c t c o n t r o .1 1 9 and/or supervision of the e e r tif yin g reporter. ) 20 21 22 23 24 KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029255 .L 2 3 4 5 6 PAGE 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 .1 6 17 18 19 2.0 21 22 23 24 LIN E Ka 1 ey ERRATA CHANGE 83 KRAUSS, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029256 Ka 1ey 84 .1 ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF DEPONENT 2 3 4 5 I, _______ _________________________________ , do hereby certify 6 that I have read the foregoing pages, .. 7 and that the same is a correct t ra n sc r 1 p tion of the 0 a n swers given by me to t h e questions t h e i~ e i n 9 propounded, except for the corrections or changes i. n 1. 0 f o r in or s u b s t a n c e , if any, noted i n the for e g o i n g 1 .1 E r rata Sheet, 1. 2 1 3 DATE 14 15 16 17 10 1 9 Subscribed and sworn to before me this da y 2. 0 of __________________________ ____ , 19 , 2 J. My commission e x pir e s : ................... . . _ _ _ 2 2 Notary P u b1ic 23 24 KRAUSE, KATZ & ACKERMAN, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000029257