Document 10DD7wvaq4155nEoVja3bO8Vo

Superior Court of the State of California For the County of Los Angeles TRANSWESTERN PIPELINE ) COMPANY, ) Plaintiff, ) ) ) vs. ) ) MONSANTO COMPANY and ) DOES 1 through 200, inclusive, ) Defendant. ) ) Case No. BC 026959 Volume n October 22,1992 Deposition of JOHN MASON, taken on behalf of Plaintiff. GORE REPORTING COMPANY Boatmen's Tower, Suite 1175 -100 North Broadway St Louis, Missouri 63102 (314) 241-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000034517 1 Superior Court of the State of California 2 For the County of Los Angeles 3 4 TRANSWESTERN PIPELINE ) 5 COMPANY, ) 6 Plaintiff, ) 7) 8 v. ) No. BC 026959 9) 10 MONSANTO COMPANY and ) 11 DOES 1 through 200, ) 1 2 inclusive, - ) 1 3 Defendants. . ) 14 1 5 Volume II 16 1 7 Continuation of the Deposition o f 1 8 JOHN MASON , taken on behalf o f Plaintiff, a t 1 9 the office s of Bryan Cave, One Metropolitan 2 0 Square 500 North Broadway in the City of 2 1 St. Louis, State of Missouri, on the 21st day 2 2 of October , 1992, before J. Bryan Jordan, 2 3 certified shorthand reporter and notary 2 4 public. 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 3 WATER PCB-SD00000345' 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: 4 Ms. Dana K. Welch 5 Shearman & Sterling 6 21st Floor 7 725 South Figueroa Street 8 Los Angeles, California 90017 9 (213) 239-0300 10 11 FOR THE DEFENDANTS: 1 2 Mr. Charles F. ' P'r e u s s 1 3 Bronson, Bronson & McKinnon 1 4 505 Montgomery Street 1 5 San Francisco, California 94111-2514 16 (415) 986-4200 17 18 19 20 21 '2 2 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 4 WATER PCB-SD0000034519 1 INDEX 2 PAGE 3 EXAMINATION BY MR. PREUSS 196 4 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MS. WELCH 284 5 6 7 EXHIBITS 8 9 Defendant's Exhibit 1062 200 1 0 Defendant's Exhibit 1 0 6 3 .................................. ... 2 26 1 1 Defendant's Exhibit 1064 234 1 2 Defendant's Exhibit 1065 238 13 Defendant's Exhibit 1066 249 1 4 Defendant's Exhibit 1067 257 1 5 Defendant's Exhibit 1068 259 1 6 Defendant's Exhibit 1069 263 17 Defendant's Exhibit 1070 271 1 8 Defendant's Exhibit 1071 273 1 9 Defendant's Exhibit 1072 275 20 21 22 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 5 WATER PCB-SD0000034520 1 OCTOBER 22, 1992 2 EXAMINATION 3 BY MR. PREUS S: 4 Q Good morning , Mr . Mason. 5 A . Good mo rning 6 Q How are you this morning? 7 A . Fine , thank you. 8 Q I ' d like to start out after 9 breaking off yesterday, just reviewing a 1 0 little bit of your background before you came 1 1 to the United States. What was your position 1 2 in Europe before y o'u came to the United 1 3 States to assume your-job in the Organic 1 4 Division? 1 5 A. I was Director of Marketing for 1 6 Monsanto Europe. 1 7 Q. And did that marketing involve all 1 8 Monsanto products? 1 9 ' A. All Monsanto products except 2 0 textiles. 2 1 Q. So at the time you came to the 2 2 United States to assume your job here, you 2 3 had an understanding of the Aroclor product 2 4 line that Monsanto marketed? 2 5 A. Yes, I did. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 196 WATER PCB-SD0000034521 1 Q. And when did you first receive 2 notice of your new position here in the 3 United States? 4 A. I think it was late 1968 or early 5 1 9 6 9. 6 Q. And you actually came to this 7 country to be here on a full -time basis in 8 mid '69; is that correct? 9 A. Yes,. I moved my f am i 1 y here, yes 1 0 I was commuting back and to prior to that. 1 1 Q. And how often wer e you commuting 1 2 between knowledge o'f` getting your position 1 3 assigned to you and actually being here on 1 4 full-time basis? 1 5 A. I would think two or three times. 1 6 I can't remember exactly.' 1 7 Q. So that was to or ient you toward 1 8 what your job responsibi 1 iti es were when you 1 9 got here? 2 0 A . Yes 2 1 Q . And your boss, when you got over 2 2 here, was a Mr . Minckler; is that correct? 2 3 A . Mr. Minckler, Howard Minckler. 2 4 Q . And you had a coequal as Assistant 2 5 General Manage r in Mr. Smith; is that GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 7 WATER PCB-SD0000034522 1 correct? 2 A . C. J. Smith, yes. 3 Q. And reporting to you was Mr. 4 Bergen? 5 A . Yes. 6 Q. That's spelled B-e-r-g-e-n; is 7 that right? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. And Mr.Springgate reported to Mr. 10 Smith; is that right? 1 1 A. Correct. 1 2 Q. And that" management line-up 1 3 lasted, I believe you-said, until August or 1 4 so in 1971? Is that right? 1 5 A. Correct. I can't remember the 1 6 exact date, but it was the corporation 1 7 reorganized into operating companies. 1 8 Q. And at that point, your boss 1 9 became Mr. Cunningham; is that right? 2 0 A. Correct. L'2 1 Q And Mr. B-a-cIi', the president of the 2 2 company, was replaced by Mr. Hanley? 2 3 A . Mr. Hanley, yes. 2 4 Q And that line-up r emained the same 2 5 until you returned to Europe in either late GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 8 WATER PCB-SD0000034523 1 '71 or early '12; is that right? 2 A . That's correct. 3 Q . All right, I ' d like to pick up 4 the minutes of the Corporate Development 5 Committee, Exhibit 1039, and you have the 6 exhibits in front of you, there. I think 7 they're numbered consecutively, so just work 8 your way down. 9 A. Oh, fine. 1039, I guess. 1 0 Q. And you indicated with respect to 1 1 this particular meeting of the Corporate 1 2 Development Committee in November of '69 that 1 3 you were present at that meeting; is that 1 4 right? 1 5 A. Yes. 1 6 Q. And your name is indicated there 1 7 on the first page of this exhibit as being 1 8 present? 1 9 A. Correct. 2 0 Q. But you did not make the 2 1 presentation; is that right? 2 2 A. That's correct. 2 3 MR. PREUSS: I'd like to mark as 2 4 next in order a document entitled "PCB 2 5 Presentation to the Corporate Development GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 9 WATER PCB-SD0000034524 1 Committee " which was previously marked in Mr. 2 Springgate's deposition as 559 and has a date 3 of November 17th, 1969, on the top. 4 MR. PREUSS: Counsel, we can just 5 go next in order is fine by me. 6 MS. WELCH: That's fine. 7 (Defendant's Deposition 8 Exhibit 1062 marked for 9 identification.) 10 (Witness peruses said . 11 document.) 12 BY MR. PREUSS: ' '" 1 3 Q. Can you identify this document for 1 4 us, sir? 1 5 A. Yes, it appears to be the PCB 1 6 presentation to the Corporate Development 1 7 Committee on November 17th, 1969. 1 8 Q. So this document, then, would 1 9 relate to Exhibit 1039, the actual CDC 2 0 minutes for the same date. 2 1 A. That would be correct. 2 2 Q . If you could, sir, turn to page 2 3 TRAN 024718, Roman numeral IV , you'll note 2 4 under there, the subject is " Effect on 2 5 Monsanto and our alternative courses of GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 200 WATER PCB-SD0000034525 1 action. 2 A . Yes 3 Q . And it is indicated th ere that 4 Aroclors 12 5 4 and 60, the 5 - and 6-chlorine 5 ring biphenyls are the ones most seriously 6 involved in the pollution problem. Was that 7 your understanding, as well, as of that point 8 in time, in the PCB issue? 9 A . It certainly was . To the be s t o f 1 0 my knowl edge, those are the only p r o d u c t s 1 1 which had been identified c o n c 1 u s i v e 1 y i n the 1 2 environment. 1 3 Q A s of that time? 1 4 A . A s of that time, correct. 1 5 Q And if you could, turn to page 721 1 6 of this exhibit, you'll note, there, there is 1 7 a, a summary of alternative causes of action, 1 8 four of them listed there? 1 9 A . Yes. 2 0 Q. You see that? 2 1 A. That's correct, yes. 2 2 Q. And atthat presentation, were 2 3 these options discussed by the presenter to 2 4 the CDC ? 2 5 A. Yes, they were. It's a normal way GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 201 WATER PCB-SD0000034526 1 of operating, is to look at the alternates. 2 Q. And what course of action was 3 adopted as a recommended course of action by 4 the CDC? 5 A. Number 4, to develop specific 6 action plans tailored to each Business Group 7 and each customer market situation to clean 8 up the mess. 9 Q. Okay, and let's go back again, if 1 0 we could, to the minutes, themselves on 1039, 1 1 sir, and if you could, turn to the second 1 2 page of that exhibit, under "Plan of action." 13 A . Ye s . ' 1 4 Q. And by the way, that was, appears 1 5 to be presented by Mr. Bergen, Bergen and Mr. 1 6 Springgate; that is right? 17 A. Yes, Bergen would address himself 1 8 to the fluids problem and Springgate to the 1 9 plasticizers. 2 0 Q. And the last paragraph of that 21 page, does that confirm your understanding -/a i k>' 2 2 that the CDC adopted a policy of a 'P-ary"3rtfTi^~ 2 3 program for EACH business group? 2 4 A. Yes, that's certainly my 2 5 understanding . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 202 WATER PCB-SD0000034527 1 Q Okay, and also in the minutes 2 above there it appears that Dr . Wheeler made 3 a pres entation on behalf of the environmental 4 aspect s ? 5 A . Yes . . 6 Q. Could you read the portion that 7 begins, the indent there under "Aroclors 8 1248"? 9 A. "Aroclors 1248 and lower in number 1 0 are believed to be biodegradable, but this 1 1 has not been conclusively established as 1 2 yet." ' 1 3 Q. And was that consistent with your 1 4 understanding at the time, sir? 1 5 A. That was my understanding, 1 6 certainly, at the time. 1 7 Q And 1242 would be an Aroclor that 1 8 would be lower in number than 1 2 4 8; correct? 1 9 A . Yes , correct. 2 0 Q Pag e 3 has twelve items listed 2 1 there. These were -- were these all part of 2 2 the plan that was presented to the CDC? 2 3 A . Yes. 2 4 Q And I think you indicated 2 5 yesterday that number one, appointing a GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 203 WATER PCB-SD0000034528 1 project manager, that was Mr. Papageorge was 2 appointed? 3 A. He was eventually appointed, yes, 4 after this meeting. 5 Q And there was a plan to notify a 6 customers? I s that correct? 7 A . Yes, correct. 8 Q And a plan to reduce and control 9 effluents from the Monsanto plants; is that 1 0 correct? 1 1 . A . That is correct, yes. 1 2 Q And in t hat regard also, t o 1 3 educate customers with respect to controlling 1 4 effluent from their plants? 1 5 A . Yes. 1 6 Q. And number 6, there, deals with 1 7 replacement products for 1254 and 1260? Is 1 8 that correct? 1 9 A. Yes, that is correct. 2 0 Q. And the idea there was to, to 2 1 develop and market replacement products if at '2 2 all possible? 2 3 A. It was, yes. 2 4 Q. And number 7, there, deals with 2 5 biodegration (sic) test program. Was that GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 204 WATER PCB-SD0000034529 1 something that was ongoing as of November 2 1969? 3 A . That was ongoing, yes. 4 Q . And that was to be focused 5 particularly with respect to 1242, 1248 and 6 1254; is that right? 7 A . That is correct, yes. 8 Q And was a toxilogical (sic) test 9 program in operation at the time? 1 0 A . Yes, I think it was. 1 1 Q And that was something, here, on 1 2 Item number 8 that 'was proposed as a 1 3 continuing project? ' 1 4 A . Yes. 1 5 Q And number 10 dealt with the 1 6 removal of the 5 and 6 chlorine rings 1 7 possible -- if possible from both 1242 and 1 8 1248; is that right? 1 9 A . That is correct, yes. 2 0 Q . And that eventually became, I 2 1 believe you indicated yesterday, a 1016? 2 2 A.. Yes. Eventually, yes. 2 3 Q . And there was also to be an 2 4 examination of the possibility of 2 5 incinerating PCBs that were reclaimed from GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 205 WATER PCB-SD0000034530 1 environmental situations; is that right? 2 A . Yes. Yes. 3 Q. On the "Conclusions" section, sir, 4 there was a -- is there a specific reference, 5 there, relating to a continuing testing of 6 1242 in terms of biodegradation, to see if it 7 was a contributor to the environmental 8 presence of PCBs? 9 A. Yes, there was. 1 0 Q. And as well as other products, it 1 1 indicates, to be tested for biodegradation? 12 A. Yes. `' 1 3 Q. And you indicated yesterday that 1 4 these minutes would have been disseminated to 1 5 you? Is that correct? 1 6 A. Yes, certainly. The normal 1 7 procedure would be Mr. Minckler would get a 1 8 copy as a member of the Corporate Development 1 9 Committee and he would supply copies to those 2 0 of us who were involved. 2 1 Q. Now, if you could, sir, turn to 2 2 1040, and that is a management plan that was 2 3 prepared, I believe you indicated, by Mr. 2 4 Papageorge for your review. 2 5 A . Yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 206 WATER PCB-SD0000034531 1 Q And to your knowledge, was this 2 plan then prepared consistent with the 3 November 17 minutes to formulate a tailored 4 plan? 5 MS. WELCH: Objection, leading. 6 A. Would you repeat the question, 7 please? 8 BY MR. PREUS S : 9 Q. All .right, did this document, sir, 1 0 relate to the corporate minutes of November 1 1 17th which discuss the establishment of a 1 2 tailored program for' each Business Group and 1 3 each customer market situation to assure that 14 the loss of PCBs in the environment, if any, 1 5 is minimal? 1 6 A . Yes . 17 MS. WELCH: Objection, leading. 1 8 BY MR. PREUS S : 1 9 Q . If you could, sir, turn to page 2 2 0 of that, which is the, actually, the first 2 1 page of his proposed management plan, under 2 2 "Basic Strategy." If -- as far as your 2 3 understanding is concerned -- actually, this 2 4 goes back to page 1, there -- this plan was 2 5 the product of meetings with a number of GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 207 WATER PCB-SD0000034532 --1 1 0) P4 1 different departments within the Monsanto 2 organization. Isn't that correct? 3 A . That is correct, yes. 4 Q And was Medica 1-Lega 1 , Public 5 a t i o n s and Business Group all involved in 6 the input for this plan that Mr. Papageorge 7 put together? 8 A . Yes. I'm not a hundred percent 9 s u r e that Public Relations would be involved 1 0 i n putting it together, rather, in reporting 11 it. 1 2 Q. Under "Basic Strategy," there, was 1 3 it a concern of yours*, as well as Monsanto, 1 4 that Monsanto act in a responsible manner in 1 5 dealing with the environmental situation and 1 6 yet not take premature action? 17 MS. WELCH: Objection, leading. 1 8 A. It certainly was my personal 1 9 opinion that one had to take a balanced 20 approach t o this and maintain a profitable 2 1 business , a t the same time to protect the 2 2 environment and ensure that Monsanto appeared 2 3 to be a responsible company. 2 4 BY MR. PREUS S : 2 5 Q. Why did you feel it was important GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 208 WATER PCB-SD0000034533 1 to maintain profitability in conjunction with 2 pursuing this plan to make sure that the 3 environment was as clean as possible? 4 A. Well, my feeling that entirely was 5 the fact we were a public company, we have 6 shareholders, we have a duty to our 7 shareholders, also to our employees, to 8 maintain a profitable operation, ongoing 9 business. 1 0 Q. Turning your attention to page 2, 1 1 sir, had youreceived input from the 1 2 electrical industry' with respect to their 1 3 views about the continued manufacture of 1 4 Aroclor 1254 and 1260? 1 5 A. Yes, we certainly had the major 1 6 users . 1 7 Q. And what was the input you 1 8 received from the electrical industry as of 1 9 that time, sir? 2 0 A. The industry was that these 2 1 products were absolutely critical because of '2 2 their fire resistant properties, particularly 2 3 in the use of transformers, where they're 2 4 used as cooling fluids and also in 25 capacitors. Prior to their availability, GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 20 9 WATER PCB-SD0000034534 1 there had been several serious accidents, to 2 the best of my knowledge, particularly in the 3 transformer area, and the potential for 4 further accidents, particularly in high-rise 5 buildings, was very apparent and no other 6 product, certainly at that time, was 7 available which could carry out this job. 8 Q. Now, did -- inreviewing this 9 exhibit, sir, Mr. Papageorge sets out a 1 0 number of objectives, here, eight in number? 11 A . Yes . 1 2 Q. And also' sets forth, does he not, 1 3 a specific action plan as to each of those 1 4 eight items? 1 5 A . Yes. 1 6 Q And did you review this document 17 you received i t , sir? 1 8 A . Yes , I c e r t a inly did. I would say 1 9 it was continuing a review of a document of 2 0 thistype. 2 1 Q. All right, and could you turn your 2 2 attention to 1041, sir? 2 3 (Witness complies) 2 4 Q. And is this a memo you prepared to 2 5 Mr. Papageorge concerning your ideas, GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 10 WATER PCB-SD0000034535 1 suggestions on his proposed plan? 2 A. Yes, it is. 3 Q. Turning to page 2 of this item 4 deals with the input from General Electric. 5 That was something that you thought, did you 6 not, that he should address more fully in his 7 proposed plan? 8 A. Yes. 9 MS. WELCH: Objection, leading. 1 0 A. (Continuing) Yes, I think it was 1 1 very important. I think this had to be 1 2 emphasized and the Corporate Management 1 3 Committee at that timte had to understand 1 4 exactly what was needed in this area. 1 5 BY MR . PREUS S : 1 6 Q You also made suggestions on 1 7 Paragraph 5 of this exhibit, sir, did you 1 8 not? 1 9 A . Yes. 2 0 Q. And what were those? 2 1 A. Report on progress to control 2 2 e m i s sions from our own plants, defining long 2 3 and short-term targets, and report by plant 2 4 what has been achieved so far. If we need 2 5 c a p i tal we should ask for it." GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 211 WATER PCB-SD0000034536 1 Q . Okay, and the second suggestion in 2 the paragraph was what, sir? 3 A. "Control of e missions from 4 customers' plants, empha size that this must 5 be handled by a combinat ion of effective 6 control of emissions -- for example, 7 transformers, discontinu ance of sales -- 8 discontinuation of sales where it would be 9 ^possible to effectively control emissions 1 0 pesticide uses, coatings , adhesives or 11 replacement of existing Aroclors by 1 2 nonpersistent, non toxic alternates." NCR 1 3 usage was obviously the major factor here, 1 4 5, biodegrada tion where this is 1 5 possible. 1 6 Q. And items 6, T, 8 and 9 , what 1 7 your recommendations in that regard , sir 1 8 A. 6 was, "Revie w m a j or end use 1 9 areas, indicating progre s s t o date and 2 0 actions we intend to tak e in the near future 2 1 to establish the fact th at we are taking 22 responsible attitude to this problem and are 2 3 moving rapidly to reduce pollution of the 24 environment." 2 5 Q. And at that t ime, sir, did you GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 12 | WATER PCB-SD0000034537 1 believe that you were moving rapidly toward 2 that situation? 3 A. Yes, we did at the time. 4 Q. Go ahead, if you would, please, to 5 itemnumber7. . 6 A. 7, "Report ontoxicity work in 7 hand, emphasizing that based on information 8 available to date, the Aroclors are only 9 mildly toxic and that this is unlikely to be 1 0 a significant factor in their usage being 1 1 banned or restricted." 12 8 -- '' 1 3 Q. On number 7, sir -- 1 4 A. Excuse me. 1 5 Q. -- on the toxicity that would be 1 6 with respect to toxicity studies that were 1 7 undergoing -- 1 8 A . Yes, 1 9 Q. -- at thattime? 2 0 A . Yes. 2 1 Q. And the information that you had 2 2 at that time was that they were only mildly 2 3 toxic? 2 4 A. That was the information that was 2 5 available to me, yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 13 WATER PCB-SD0000034538 1 And number 8, sir? 2 A. "Analytical procedure 3 emphasize" -- "procedures emphasize good 4 progress to date and the aim here is to 5 become internationally recognized as experts 6 in this area so that our results will be 7 accepted." 8 Q. What was your understanding at the 9 time, sir, of what efforts Monsanto was 1 0 making toward developing analytic techniques? 11 A. Monsanto was making very 1 2 significant efforts 'under the guidance of Dr. 1 3 Keller. This area of" analytical procedure 1 4 and techniques was extremely important, and 1 5 in fact, polychlorinated biphenyls would 1 6 never have been identified in the environment 1 7 had there not been massive progress in this 1 8 area of analytical techniques. 1 9 However, there was a lot of work 2 0 required to be continued, and Dr. Keller and 2 1 his associates continued to work in this '2 2 area, improving these techniques 23 continuously. 2 4 Q. Were those techniques as they were 2 5 developed shared with the outside world? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 14 WATER PCB-SD0000034539 1 A . They_ certainly_ were,. and they_ were 2 certainly made available to appropriate 3 agencies who were working in this area. 4 Q. Thank you, sir. If you would take 5 a look at Exhibits 1042 and 43, please. 6 A . Yes. 7 Q. All right, I believe you indicated 8 that 1042 was the outline of the presentation 9 to the Corporate Development Committee or 1 0 Corporate Management Committee, I guess, at 1 1 that time in April of 1970; is that correct? 12 A . Yes `' 1 3 Q . And again,- that was not your 1 4 presentati o n , was it? 15 A . No . No, it was not, not to the 1 6 best of my knowledge. 1 7 Q I think you ind icated yester day 1 8 that that d i d n 't look like your, your s t y 1 e ? 1 9 A . No , it doesn't look like my style 2 0 Q But looking at 1043, you wer e 2 1 present a t the time that that presentat ion 2 2 was made t is that correct? 2 3 A. Yes, I certainly was. 2 4 Q. In fact, virtually everybody in 2 5 your upper management of the Organic Division GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 215 WATER PCB-SD0000034540 1 was there, Mr. Minckler, C. J. Smith, Mr. 2 Papageorge , Mr. Bergen, Mr. Springgate. 3 A . Yes. 4 Q And has R. Kelly, is that Dr. 5 Kelly the Medical Director? 6 A . Yes, it is Dr. Kelly. 7 Q And then Dr. Wheeler, who was -- 8 A . Yeah. 9 Q What was his job responsibilities 1 0 here? 11 A. His major job responsibility was 1 2 in the area of toxi'crity, and work in this 1 3 area on behalf of the- group and other parts 1 4 of Monsanto. 1 5 Incidentally, if I may interpose, 1 6 I don't think he, however, was a doctor. I 17 think -- I think may be incorrect. He 1 8 certainly wasn't -- he's not a medical 1 9 doctor. 2 0 Q His area of e xp e r tise was in the 2 1 area of toxicology; is that right? 2 2 A . That ' s right . I think he's a 2 3 Master, MSC, I think. 2 4 Q - Thank you. 2 5 A . I'm pretty sure. Nonetheless , GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 16 WATER PCB-SD0000034541 1 very much an expert in that field. 2 Q. If you turn to page 2, sir, on the 3 "Conclusions" section -- 4 MS. WELCH: Which exhibit are you 5 referringto? 6 MR. PREUSS: I'm sorry, Exhibit 7 1 0 4 3. 8 BY MR. PREUSS: 9 Q. The .first paragraph, there, deals 1 0 with the replacement product, in the words of 1 1 the CMC, "should be developed on a crash 1 2 basis for the NCR a pplication. " What was the 1 3 NCR application, sir?' 1 4 A. Excuse me, I'm -- have I got the 1 5 right -- it's 1043? 1 6 Q. Yes, sir, on page 2. 1 7 A. Yeah. 1 8 Q. Under the "Conclusions" section. 1 9 A. All right. Excuse me. 2 0 Q. And the first paragraph, there. 2 1 A. The NCR application was the use of 2 2 Aroclor 1242 in the carbonless paper, which 2 3 the company was famous for and had a 2 4 virtually world-wide monopoly. 2 5 Q. And was that considered an open GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 217 WATER PCB-SD0000034542 1 use? 2 A. Yes, it certainly was. 3 Q. And can you explain why, sir? 4 A. Well, it's two possibilities. 5 One, you could find a situation where paper 6 was disposed of and burnt, in which case you 7 could get PCBs being released into the 8 atmosphere. Secondly, if the paper found its 9 way to open waste dumps, it could, of course, 1 0 get washed by rain and eventually find its 1 1 way into underground water courses. In 1 2 addition to that, o.f course, there was a 1 3 possibility you could continue recycling the 1 4 polychlorinated biphenyls if the material was 1 5 used for recyclable products. 1 6 Q. So the CMC gave you and other 1 7 members of your management group direction to 1 8 work on a replacement product on a crash 1 9 basis for that? 2 0 A . Very defini l. e j. y , yes. It was not 2 1 a product that --not a use that the 2 2 corporati on could walk away from, because it 2 3 was a major part of NCR's business, of 2 4 course. Unless we had a replacement material 2 5 available, they could be in very serious GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 18 WATER PCB-SD0000034543 1 difficulties. 2 Q. The second paragraph, there, deals 3 with communications to governmental agencies. 4 Was that something that the management group 5 was doing at that time and after? 6 A. Yes, it certainly was, and I think 7 most members of the group had contact with 8 one or more government agencies at that time. 9 Q. And did you, as well, sir, as far 1 0 as you -- 1 1 A . Yes , I did . 1 2 Q. What groups were you communicating 1 3 with? * 1 4 A. Well, I had contact with Dr. 1 5 Berger, who was head of the Scientific 1 6 Office -- Science and Technology Department 1 7 in the Office of the President, and I'd also 1 8 had contact, with Dr. Kelly, with various 1 9 other agencies; for example, the FDA. 20 Q. When you say Office of the - 2 1 President, you are talking about Office of '2 2 the President of the United States? 2 3 A. Yes. 2 4 Q And did you receive a direction at 2 5 t h a t time from the CMC to come up with a, a GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 219 WATER PCB-SD0000034544 1 more specific plan? 2 A . Yes. 3 Q And wh a t was the deadline f or 4 coming up with t h a t proposed plan? If you 5 would look at - - I think the final s e n t e n c 6 there, might help you. 7 A . The div ision was required t o 8 report its specific plans to the committee by 9 Junethelst. 10 Q And was that done, sir? 11 A . To the best of my recollection 1 2 yes. 1 3 Q I f you would, sir, turn t o 1 4 E x h i b its 10 4 4 and 1 0 4 6. 1 5 A . Yes 1 6 Q All right, and 1044 and 1 0 4 6, 17 could you identify those two exhibits for us, 1 8 sir? 1 9 A. Yes, 1044 is a memo from myself to 2 0 Howard Bergen and Jim Springgate, enclosing 2 1 copies of the charts which I used in the 2 2 presentation to the CMC on May the 11th, 2 3 19 7 0. 2 4 Q. And 1046, those are the minutes of 2 5 that meeting in which you made your GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 220 WATER PCB-SD0000034545 1 presentation? 2 A. I've lost 1046. 3 Yes, these are the, these are an 4 extract from the minutes of the Corporate 5 Management Committee of May the 11th, 1970, 6 referring to thepresentation. 7 Q. And this was a presentation that 8 you actually made? 9 A . Yes. 1 0 Q. There is your first one to the 1 1 CMC ? 1 2 A . C o r r e c t .'' ' 1 3 Q And in tha presentation, you 1 4 outlined some specifi steps, did you not? 1 5 A . Yes. 1 6 Q And if you turn to, I guess it's 17 300 0560 and 61 -- 1 8 A . 0560, "Pre ent Plan"? 19 Q Right, and was that the specific 2 0 plan that you offered to the CMC for their 2 1 consideration? 2 2 A. Yes, these were the six points 2 3 which I referred to se veral times in the 2 4 future. 2 5 Q. What were those six points GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 221 WATER PCB-SD0000034546 1 specifically, sir? 2 A. One was to terminate sales of all 3 non-biodegradab1e chlorinated biphenyls to 4 noncontrollable end uses. Completion by 5 August 30th, 1970. 6 2, "Discontinue sale of Aroclor 7 1242 to National Cash Register and replace 8 with HB 40 in the U.K.and MIBP in the U.S.A. 9 Completion dates: U.K, July 1st, 1970; U.S., 1 0 January 30th, 1971." 1 1 3, "Close the loop on heat 1 2 transfer applicati on's where fire resistance 1 3 is vital and replace faith alternates in other 1 4 cases. Complete December 30th, 1970. 1 5 4, replace all non-biodegradab1e 1 6 chlorinated biphenyls in hydraulic 1 7 applications. Complete 20 percent by August 1 8 1st, 1970, 40 percent by November 1st, 1970, 1 9 and a hundred percent by December 30th, 1970. 2 0 5, close the loop on all 2 1 non-biodegradab1e chlorinated biphenyls in 2 2 transformer applications. Complete 1st of 2 3 August 1970. 2 4 6, close the loop on capacitors as 2 5 far as possible and replace 1242 with 1242 B. GORE REPORTING COMPANY -ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 222 | WATER PCB-SD0000034547 1 Complete December 31st, 1970. 2 Q. Could you tell me what closing the 3 loop is, please? 4 A. Closing the loop is an attempt to 5 ensure that polychlorinated biphenyls are 6 being used in a closed system and that no 7 material is being allowed to escape into the 8 environment. 9 Q. Turning your attention to number 1 0 1, sir, with respect to sales of 11 non-biodegradab1e chlorinated biphenyls for 12 controlled end uses,' were those permissible 1 3 under the plan? * 1 4 A. Yes, they were. 1 5 Q. And you indicated yesterday you 1 6 were familiar with Turbinol 153? 1 7 A. Yes. irl 1 8 Q. Where would Turbinol -5^ (sic) fit 1 9 into the six-step program that you outlined 2 0 here? 2 1 A. Well, it would certainly be a 2 2 product where there was, it was, we believed 2 3 there was a controlled end use, and 2 4 therefore, it would be permissible to sell to 2 5 that corporation. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 23 WATER PCB-SD0000034548 1 Q. Do you have general familiarity 2 with thefunction of a hydraulic fluid? 3 A . Yes, I do. 4 Q. Can you distinguish for us the 5 difference between a hydraulic fluid, in your 6 mind, and the use to which the Turbinol 153 7 was applied? 8 A. Yes, hydraulic fluids are normally 9 used and under pressure where they are 1 0 transferring force from one point to another. 11 The braking system of a car is one 1 2 possibility, and in''`the automobile industry, 1 3 there are many, many applications where 1 4 presses are being operated using hydraulic 1 5 pressure. The fluid concerned is under high 1 6 pressure and is quite liable to result in 1 7 leakages, either large or small. 1 8 In the case of a turbocompressor, 1 9 as I understand it, the material, Aroclor 2 0 1242, was being -- excuse me, Turbinol 153, 21 was being used as a lubricant. In this case, 2 2 it was not under any significant pressure, 2 3 and therefore, it was unlikely there would be 2 4 any serious leaks in the system. 2 5 Q. Was this six-point plan adopted by GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 224 WATER PCB-SD0000034549 1 the CMC, sir? 2 A. Yes, it was adopted, and I think 3 there were some provisos. Particularly was 4 it pointed out there be no delay in 5 implementing the plan and also the fact that 6 it could result in a requirement for 7 significant new capital, and the division was 8 requested to be certain that pricing policies 9 set on the products, either replacement 1 0 products, would be sufficient to give an 1 1 acceptable return on investment. 1 2 Q. And on page 1 of 1046, which were 1 3 the minutes of the CMC,, the six points that 1 4 were actually set forth in your plan are 1 5 reiterated in the minutes, are they not? 1 6 A. Yes, they are. 1 7 Q. What was thecontemplated capital 1 8 expenditure required to carry out the 1 9 six-point plan, sir? 2 0 A. The estimated new capital required 2 1 was $3,585,000. 2 2 Q. Was this plan, after adopted, made 2 3 effective outside of the United States, sir? 2 4 A. Yes, it was. 2 5 Q. Where else? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 225 WATER PCB-SD0000034550 1 A. Certainly, in the European area 2 which I'm familiar with. 3 MR. PREUSS: I'd like to mark next 4 for identification a copy of a Telex dated 5 May 19th, 1970, a one-page document. 6 (Defendant's Deposition 7 Exhibit 1063 marked for 8 identification.) 9 (Witness peruses said . 1 0 document.) 1 1 BY MR. PREUSS: 1 2 Q. Mr. Mason, could you identify this 1 3 exhibit for us, please? 14 MS. WELCH: First of all, I want 1 5 to object that this document has not been 1 6 produced, as far as I know, to Transwestern. 1 7 It has no identifying stamp, and we have 1 8 addressed this problem in previous 1 9 depositions, and we have requested that prior 2 0 to any deposition, if newly discovered ' 2 1 documents are discovered by Monsanto, that 2 2 they be produced before the deposition to 2 3 Transwestern, so I would like to register my 2 4 objection. 25 MR. PREUSS: Your objection is GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 226 WATER PCB-SD0000034551 1 noted. My understanding is and I will 2 check on that -- that this has been produced. 3 It is true this doesn ' t have a TRAN number, 4 but it's my understanding it has been 5 produced. I will check that and let you 6 know. 7 MS. WELCH: Is there any 8 explanation why the TRAN document is not the 9 one that's being introduced as an exhibit, a 1 0 deposition exhibit? 1 1 MR. PREUSS: I have none at this 1 2 time, but I will ch' e'c k . It's my 1 3 understanding it has been produced, however. 1 4 BY MR. PREUSS : 1 5 Q You may proceed, Mr. Mason. 16 A . This is a transcript of the text 1 7 of a Telex received by Dahlstrom and Soden 1 8 from John Mason on the PCB problem. 1 9 Q. So basically, you sent the Telex? 2 0 A. The original Telex, yes. The 2 1 information is being sent to Summerside in 2 2 London who at that time was the United 2 3 Kingdom sales manager, and to Marsh in 2 4 Brussels, who was the product manager of the 2 5 Functional Fluids Group. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 227 WATER PCB-SD0000034552 1 Q. And the content and the purpose of 2 the memo was -- or the Telex was what, sir? 3 A. Was to transmit to Europe a CMC 4 approval of the six-point plan we've just 5 been discussing. . 6 Q . Thank you. 7 Could you turn your attention to 8 Exhibit 1051, sir? 9 A . Oka y . 1 0 Q. You identified this document as 1 1 one of three letters yesterday that you 1 2 addressed to Congressman Ryan? Is that 1 3 correct? 1 4 A. That is correct, yes 15 Q. And youindicated thatMr. B-arciT*' 1 6 had received the initial communication from 1 7 Congressman Ryan? 1 8 A . Yes . 1 9 Q. And that the responsibility for 2 0 responding was given to you? 2 1 A. Yes, correct. 2 2 Q. Did you have as part of your job 2 3 responsibilities during the two-p1us-year 2 4 stint in the United States to deal with 2 5 representatives such as Congressman Ryan and GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 228 WATER PCB-SD0000034553 1 others in the community? 2 A. Yes, in the case where 3 polychlorinated biphenyls were concerned. 4 Q. And in writing this letter, did 5 you precede the letter with actually meeting 6 with Congressman Ryan? 7 A. Yes, I met with Congressman Ryan 8 sometime between the date of his letter and ft 9 April 28th, with Sam Pickett", who at that 1 0 time was Monsanto's Vice-President of 1 1 Governmental Affairs in Washington. 1 2 Q. And your' purpose in meeting with 13 him was what, sir? * 1 4 A. First, to try and understand what 1 5 his major aim in raising the PCB issue i n 1 6 such strong terms , and s e c o n d 1 y , to try t o 1 7 give him our side of the story and to e x p 1 a i n 1 8 to him what the problem was more a c c u r a t e 1 y 1 9 and what we were trying to do to a 11 e v i ate 20 it. 2 1 Q. And was this letter, then, a 2 2 reflection of your attempt to do so? 2 3 A. I think so, yes, broadly. 2 4 Q. Would you turn to page 2 of your 2 5 letter,sir? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 229 I WATER PCB-SD0000034554 1 A . Yes. 2 Q. On the first paragraph, there, 3 deals with certain meetings with the U.S. 4 government. I take it, then, you were 5 familiar with the meetings that went on? 6 A. Oh, yes. 7 Q. And what were these meetings with 8 the governmental agencies, sir? 9 A. Well, the one particularly 1 0 referred to here is contact with scientists 1 1 and agent -- excuse me, attended the U.S. 1 2 Department of the Interior meeting where some 1 3 40 scientists from throughout the country 1 4 gathered to exchange information on PCBs and 1 5 recommend actions. 1 6 On April 29th, we were planning at 1 7 that time to participate in the meeting in 1 8 the Office of Science and Technology of the 1 9 Executive Office of the President to. discuss 2 0 the toxicity of PCBs. 2 1 Q. And in the next paragraph, there, 2 2 you were asked some questions on that 2 3 yesterday, sir, dealing with the issue of a 2 4 threat to the public health. In the last 2 5 sentence, there, you state that the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 230 WATER PCB-SD0000034555 1 "Manufacturing and use experience for thirty 2 years, earlier animal toxicity studies, and 3 interim" -- "and the interim reports on 4 current extensive toxicological studies with 5 various species of animals indicate that 6 there is no threat to the public health." 7 Was is that your opinion at the time, sir? 8 A. It certainly was my opinion at 9 this time. 1 0 Q. Based on the information that you 1 1 indicated in that paragraph; is that right? 1 2 A . Yes, co r're c t . 1 3 Q. In the next paragraph, you discuss 1 4 1254, or actually, Aroclors that have 54 1 5 percent chlorine. What was your 1 6 understanding of that particular Aroclor in 1 7 terms of it being found in the environment as 1 8 of April of 1970, sir? 1 9 A. As of that that time, we are still 2 0 convinced that the major cause of any 2 1 pollution by polychlorinated biphenyls was 2 2 due to the higher chlorinated materials, 54 2 3 andabove. 2 4 Q. Turning your attention to the last 2 5 paragraph on page 2 and in the top of page GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 231 WATER PCB-SD0000034556 1 3 -- and feel free to read that -- 2 A. I'djust like to read it, please. 3 Q. Sure. 4 (Witness peruses said 5 document . ) 6 A . Yes 7 Q Did you attempt to advise 8 Congressman Ry an with respect to how PCBs are 9 principally u s e.d in the country -- 1 0 A . Yes , we did. 1 1 Q - - as of that time? 1 2 A . Yes . Yes. 1 3 Q And what did you tell him in that 1 4 regard? 1 5 A . We explained, of course. that the 1 6 major uses were in closed systems: For 17 example, tr ansformers, capacitors, and we 1 8 tried to put the whole picture in perspective 1 9 o n the basis that expos ure of these m a t e r i a 1 s 2 0 t o the public was very unlikely. I should 2 1 have put that the other way: Exposure of the 2 2 public to these materials. Excuse me. 2 3 Q. All right, then the next 2 4 paragraph, Congressman Ryan apparently asked 2 5 you for a list of all products and GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 232 WATER PCB-SD0000034557 1 manufacturers using PCB products? 2 A. Yes, he did. 3 Q. And what was your concern in that 4 regard, sir? 5 A. Well, we felt we were unable to 6 give him this information, as much of it was 7 confidential, it was confidential between our 8 customers and ourselves, we did not feel we 9 could disclose to him either a list of 1 0 products or manufacturers who were using 1 1 Aroclors without very specific permission 1 2 from each individual- company. 1 3 Q. Turning your attention t o the 1 4 fourth, fourth or fifth paragraph o f that 1 5 page, had you notified customers about the 1 6 potential for environmental problems? 1 7 A. Yes, we had. 1 8 Q. And had you been working with them 1 9 at that time concerning problems that they 2 0 may have? 2 1 A. Yes, we had, and also in many 2 2 cases, of course, with looking at alternate 2 3 materials . 2 4 Q. All right, the next-to-the-1 ast 2 5 paragraph discusses the preparation of a new GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 233 WATER PCB-SD0000034558 1 shipping label, stressing possible 2 environm e n t a 1 h a z a rd . 3 A . Yes. 4 Q Was t h a t something that w as in the 5 works at that t i m e , sir? 6 A . Yes , i t was. 7 Q What w a s Monsanto' s posit ion w i th 8 respect t o Cong res sman Ryan's r e q u e s t s for 9 producti o n and sal es figures at that time? 1 0 A . We w ere unwilling to make these 1 1 available to the general public, but we were 1 2 ready to accept that' these figures should be 1 3 made available to a responsible governmental 1 4 agency, providing we rec eiv e d an assurance 1 5 that the se figures would be kept confidential 1 6 and used only for, shall we say, scientific 1 7 purposes for them to study the problem. 1 8 MR. PREUSS: I'd like to mark next 1 9 for identification a letter dated May 28th, 2 0 1970, to Mr. Kevin Harris from Mr. Mason. 2 1 (Defendant's Deposition 2 2 Exhibit 1064 marked for 2 3 identification.) 2 4 (Witness peruses said 2 5 document.) GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 234 WATER PCB-SD0000034559 1 THE WITNES S : All right. 2 BY MR. PREUS S : 3 Q. Can you identify this letter for 4 us, sir? 5 A. Yes. It's a letter from me to a 6 Mr. Kevin Harris of Donlon Hall, Cornell 7 University, New York. 8 Q. Who was Mr. Harris, if you know, 9 sir? 1 0 A. I'm trying to remember. I think 1 1 he was a student at Cornell University. I'm 1 2 not sure whether he was a graduate student or 13 an undergraduate. 1 4 Q. How was it that you were writing 1 5 this letter to him, sir? 1 6 A. Mr.B-a-e-h*1 referred it to me and 1 7 asked me to reply and to give a full answer 1 8 to his questions. 1 9 Q. And what was the purpose, then, of 2 0 your letter to communicate to Mr. Harris? 2 1 A. I think we wanted to communicate 2 2 to Mr. Harris and any other individual in the 2 3 United States that there was a problem, we 2 4 had a deep concern over the problem and we 2 5 were taking appropriate actions to control GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MIS SOURI 235 WATER PCB-SD0000034560 1 it. I think I attempted to explain the major 2 points in our program. 3 Q. That would be your action plan, 4 the six-point action plan? 5 A. The six points, yes. 6 Q. Did you advise Mr. Harris -- and 7 if you could refer to the third paragraph on 8 the first page -- about the voluntary nature 9 of Monsanto's action? 1 0 MS. WELCH: Objection, leading. 1 1 BY MR. PREUS S : 1 2 Q. All right', I'll reask the 1 3 question. Referring Jour attention to the 1 4 third paragraph, was the action of Monsanto 1 5 that you described previously in the six 1 6 point program voluntary? 1 7 A. Yes, it certainly was. 1 8 Q. On the last paragraph of that 1 9 page, there is a discussion about 2 0 establishing a fair balance. Could you 2 1 describe what you intended to communicate by 2 2 that, sir? 2 3 A. I think it's extremely important 2 4 to achieve this balance. The products were 2 5 extremely useful from a safety point of view GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 236 WATER PCB-SD0000034561 1 in preventing fire hazards, fire hazards in 2 areas such as transformers, for example, and 3 capacitors, and also several other 4 applications. It is true that they were 5 being identified as a pollutant in the 6 environment, but I think I was trying to 7 explain that one has to achieve a fair 8 balance. There's nearlyalways a trade in 9 these things. Products which are extremely 1 0 useful can sometimes also have disadvantages, 1 1 and one has to weigh up what is the overall 1 2 net advantage. ' 1 3 Q. In the first sentence of the last 14 paragraph of your letter, sir, you say, 1 5 "Monsanto recognizes it has a responsibility 1 6 to the environment, but also it has a 1 7 responsibility to the population of the 1 8 environment, including humans." 1 9 A . Yes. 2 0 Q. Was that your belief at thetime, 2 1 sir? 2 2 A. That was the belief, yes. I was 2 3 referring, there, of course, particularly to 2 4 fire hazards. 2 5 MR. PREUSS: I'd like to mark next GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 237 WATER PCB-SD0000034562 1 for identification a letter dated June 19th, 2 1970, to Mrs. Joseph L. Tucker from Mr. 3 Mason, a four-page letter. 4 MS. WELCH: Before you get into 5 questioning of that, can we take a break, a 6 short one? 7 MR. PREUSS: Sure. Off the 8 record, please. 9 (Recess) 1 0 (Defendant's Deposition 1 1 Exhibit 1065 marked for 1 2 ide n't ification. ) 1 3 BY MR. PREUSS: ' 1 4 Q. I think when we broke off, Mr. 1 5 Mason, we were about to identify Exhibit 1 6 1 0 6 5, which is a letter to Mrs . Tucker from 1 7 you. Could you find that one? 1 8 A . 10 6 5 is that th e -- Thank you. 1 9 Q Could you ident i f y that for us, 2 0 pleas e ? 2 1 A . Yes, it appears t o be a letter 2 2 from me to a Mrs. Joseph L. Tucker of St. 2 3 Louis . 2 4 Q. And who was Mrs. Tucker? 2 5 A. To the best of my recollection, GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 23 8 WATER PCB-SD0000034563 1 she was a lady living in St. Louis who had k 2 written to President B-arcTr^ expressing her 3 concern about the problem of polychlorinated 4 biphenyls in the environment. Mr. B a-crlf had 5 asked me to reply on his behalf. 6 Q. And what was the intent of your 7 reply? 8 A. I think the intent was to take 9 seriously the comments of the lady in 1 0 question, to explain to her as best as I 1 1 could what the problem was, to try to answer 1 2 her individual questions and to convince her 1 3 that Monsanto was taking a responsible 1 4 attitude to this problem. 1 5 Q. Turning your attention to page 2, 1 6 there, the top two paragraphs, were those 1 7 items discussed part of the action plan, the 1 8 six-point action plan? 1 9 A. Could I just read that paragraph, 2 0 please? 2 1 Q. Sure. 2 2 (Witness peruses said 2 3 document.) 2 4 A. Yes, I think that's fair to say. 2 5 Q. And then the next paragraph, sir, GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 239 WATER PCB-SD0000034564 1 you have a sentence, there, at the end of 2 that paragraph, "Incidentally, we believe 3 that this is the first time that a U.S. 4 company has taken such action voluntarily in 5 the interests of the environment." Was that 6 your understanding at the time? 7 A. It certainly was my understanding, 8 yes. 9 Q. Is that still your understanding? 1 0 A. It's still my understanding. 1 1 Q. On page 3, you ask a rhetorical 1 2 question, "Wouldn't' it be easier for Monsanto 1 3 to get out of the PCB-business?" And what 1 4 was your response to that and why, sir? 1 5 A. My response was, "We cannot," and 1 6 I went on to try to explain that man and 1 7 society have become dependent on these 1 8 materials, mainly because of their fireproof 1 9 properties, their fire-resistant properties, 2 0 I think I tried to describe the major 2 1 electrical area, and pointing out, of course, 2 2 that their usage was a very important factor 2 3 in reducing fire hazard and hence, damage to 2 4 life and even loss of life. 2 5 Q. The last paragraph, sir, you say, GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 240 WATER PCB-SD0000034565 1 It is our firm belief that by working with 2 customers who are well aware of the 3 environmental problem and are conscientiously 4 working to achieve the maximum degree of 5 control, we can protect the environment and 6 continue to make available these materials 7 which are so vitally needed by man in his 8 daily life." That was your belief as well, 9 sir? 1 0 A. It certainly was, yes. 1 1 Q. And was Texas Eastern one of those 1 2 customers that would' -- that Monsanto was 1 3 work ing wi th? 1 4 A. Yes, it was. 15 Q. Would you turn toExhibit 1053, 1 6 which is the second letter to Congressman 1 7 Ryan, sir, your second letter that was 1 8 identified yesterday, please? 1 9 A. The letter dated June the 30th, 2 0 1 9 7 0. 2 1 Q Correct. 2 2 (Witness peruses said 2 3 document.) 2 4 Q Turning your attention to 2 5 Paragraph 3, sir, as of the date of this GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 241 WATER PCB-SD0000034566 1 letter, June 30, 1970, had Monsanto, to the 2 best of your knowledge, contacted its 3 customers, both verbally and by letter? 4 A . Yes. 5 Q. And relating to the six-point 6 plan? 7 MS. WELCH: Wait a minute. Which 8 exhibit are we on? 9 MR. PREUSS: I'm sorry, 1053. 1 0 MS. WELCH: Okay. All right. 1 1 BY MR. PREUSS: 1 2 Q. Do you have the question in mind, 1 3 Mr.Mason? 1 4 A. Yes. I don't think we explained 1 5 to our customers in detail the six points. 1 6 We had explained what the situation was, what 1 7 the problem was in general, what we were 1 8 doing, and how it would impact those 1 9 customers individually. 2 0 Q. And on page 2, in the paragraph 2 1 right after numbered 3, there, did you 2 2 discuss in your letter Monsanto's continuing 2 3 to sell chlorinated biphenyls for closed 2 4 system usage? 2 5 A . Yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 242 WATER PCB-SD0000034567 1 Q. Was it a purpose in writing this 2 letter to bring Congressman Ryan up-to-date 3 on where you were at that time? 4 MS. WELCH: Objection, leading. 5 A. It certainly was that. It was 6 also to answer some of the points he'd raised 7 again in his previous 1 etter and to give him 8 more information, and a Iso a continuing 9 e f f o r t to persuade him to take a balanced 1 0 view of this problem. 1 1 BY MR. P REUS S : 1 2 Q. Was it your opinion that he was 1 3 not taking a balanced'view as of that time? 1 4 A. Certainly, initially, he did not 1 5 take a balanced view. It was a somewhat 16 hysterical approach. I think during our 1 7 correspondence and meeting with him -- and I 1 8 did have several phone conversations with him 1 9 he did take a more balanced view, but I think 2 0 he was still determined that he was going to 2 1 raise this as a major issue and attempt to 2 2 persuade Congress to pass a bill banning 2 3 polychlorinated biphenyls. 2 4 Q. On page 3, there, there is a 2 5 discussion of various contacts that Monsanto GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 243 WATER PCB-SD0000034568 1 has had with scientists. Was that set forth 2 in response to one of the comments or 3 specific questions of Congressman Ryan? 4 A . Excuse me. This is page -5 Q . 3 , sir. 6 A. 3. Yes, that was more than an 7 attempt to persuade him that we were in 8 contact with scientists who were studying 9 this problem, we were in contact with various 1 0 agencies, again who were studying it, and I 1 1 did list here some of those meetings and 1 2 contacts we had established. 1 3 Q. Those meetings were with, and 1 4 contacts were with scientists both in the 1 5 United States, as well as abroad? 1 6 A. Yes, they were. I particularly, 1 7 of course, here, refer to Dr. Risebrough, who 1 8 had supplied much of the information that 1 9 Congressman Ryan had used in his 2 0 communication originally to Mr. Bach. 2 1 Q. In the paragraph that discusses 2 2 Dr. Risebrough, there, the last sentence 2 3 there says, "At the end of the day" -- and 2 4 this is a meeting that you discussed that 2 5 occurred among Dr. Wheeler, Dr. Papageorge or GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 244 WATER PCB-SD0000034569 1 Mr. Papageorge and, let's see, Dr. Keller -- 2 A. Keller, yeah. 3 Q. -- that Dr. Risebrough expressed 4 appreciation of Monsanto's approach and was 5 glad to note that the company was taking a 6 responsible position on the chlorinated 7 biphenyl problem." Did you gain that 8 understanding from Mr. Papageorge, Dr. 9 Keller, and Mr. Wheeler? 1 0 A. I certainly did. There were areas 1 1 of disagreement, of course. I don't think 1 2 everything was sweetness and light between 1 3 Dr. Risebrough and Monsanto, but he did 1 4 express an appreciation of the fact that we'd 1 5 taken the trouble to send people to see him 1 6 and to discuss his views. 1 7 Q. At the top of page 4, was it also 1 8 your purpose to advice Congressman Ryan of 1 9 meetings that had been held between Monsanto 2 0 representatives and federal and state 2 1 agencies? 2 2 A. Yes, it was. 2 3 Q. Did you also discuss in your 2 4 letter the subject matter of Monsanto's 2 5 attempts to control discharge from its GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 245 WATER PCB-SD0000034570 1 manufacturing facilities? 2 A. Yes, on page 4, we list several 3 actions which we are taking to ensure that 4 that we are controlling' possible escapes from 5 our plant. 6 Q And on page 6 -- 7 A . Plants; excuse me. 8 Q Excuse me; are you t h r o u g h ? 9 A . Plants in plural. E x c u s e me. 1 0 Q Pa g e 6 , please? The fir s t full 1 1 paragraph of that page, you also discuss 1 2 Monsanto's position' with respect to the 13 production and sales figure again. Is that 1 4 correct? 1 5 A. Yes. 1 6 Q. Was that position consistent with 1 7 what you had said in your earlier letter? 1 8 A. Yes, it was. It continued to be a 1 9 point of extreme disagreement between 2 0 Congressman Ryan and Monsanto, and I don't 2 1 think we changed our attitude from our first 2 2 meeting with him. 2 3 Q. That would be that you were 24 willing to disclosethem as long as -- to 2 5 responsible environmental and scientific GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 24 6 WATER PCB-SD0000034571 1 groups as long as they were maintained 2 confidential? 3 A. Yes, sir. Our reason behind that, 4 of course, was that there were other 5 producers in Germany, France, Italy, and that 6 information could be extremely valuable to 7 them. 8 Q. Was there any way that Monsanto 9 could control whether foreign producers could 1 0 sell in the United States? 1 1 A. Absolutely no way at all. 1 2 Q. Turning ' y o ur attention to the 1 3 next-to-the-1 ast paragraph of 6, it discusses 1 4 labeling issues. What was the status of 1 5 labeling at that time of your letter in June 1 6 3 0 , 1 9 7 0 , sir? 1 7 A. Still page 6? 1 8 Q. Yes, sir, the next-to-last 1 9 paragraph. 2 0 A. Here, I'm reiterating our earlier 2 1 comments to Congressman Ryan, that it would 2 2 be impossible for us to ensure that all 2 3 customers label their products, indicating 2 4 that they contain chlorinated biphenyls. 2 5 However, we are arriving at the position GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 247 WATER PCB-SD0000034572 1 where our sales have been restricted 2 considerably since my very first meeting with 3 him, in the case of hydraulic and heat 4 transfer fluids, and labeling all drums, 5 indicating they contain chlorinated 6 biphenyls, and in the case of the electrical 7 usages, I point out that "the American 8 Society of Testing and Materials and the 9 Institute of Electric and Electrical 1 0 Engineers and the Conference Internationale 1 1 des Grands Reseaux Electriques are developing 1 2 a label which will be used on all end 1 3 products containing chlorinated biphenyls." 1 4 That would be in the mainly outside the 1 5 United States. 1 6 Q. So that products that you were 1 7 selling had labeling but that you had no 1 8 control over what your customers' -- 1 9 A . No . 2 0 Q -- products were with respect to 21 labeling Is that right? 2 2 A . No . 2 3 MS. WELCH: Objection; leading. 2 4 A. (Continuing) Congressman Ryan was 2 5 always most insistent that he wanted every GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 24 8 WATER PCB-SD0000034573 1 single product that could possibly contain 2 chlorinated biphenyls to be labeled, and he 3 was thinking, here, of consumer products in 4 the consumer market. Very few of those 5 products, of course, that did ever contain 6 chlorinated biphenyls, and it would have been 7 impossible for to us persuade customers to 8 label them in that way. 9 MR. PREUSS: Could you take 1055, 1 0 please, which is the CMC minutes for 1 1 September 14th, 1970, and I'd like to mark 1 2 next in order a do c'U ment entitled "Minutes of 1 3 Meeting ofCorporate Management Committee 1 4 September 14th, 1970." 1 5 (Defendant's Deposition 1 6 Exhibit 1066 marked for 1 7 identification.) 1 8 BY MS. WELCH: 1 9 Q. If you would take a look at 1066 2 0 and 1055, please, sir, you'll see that, at 2 1 least by my observation, that they are the 2 2 same except for the first page. Could you 2 3 confirm that? 2 4 A. I think so, yes. You mean apart 2 5 from the writing on the first page and what GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI ' 249 WATER PCB-SD0000034574 1 is obviously a photostat of the yellow 2 "Monsanto" -- "From the desk of" -- yes. 3 Q. Looks like they blocked over the 4 title of it. 5 A . Yes. 6 Q. Now, you were at this corporate 7 management meeting for September 14th, 1970? 8 A . Yes. 9 Q. And that would have been your 1 0 presentation, again, at the time? 1 1 A . Yes. 1 2 Q. And what 'was the purpose of your 1 3 presentation at that particular meeting? 1 4 A. It was to report on progress 1 5 against the six-point plan, and also if I 1 6 remember, this was the meeting at which we 17 had to ask for an extension in the 1 8 replacement of non-biodegradab1e 1 9 polychlorinated biphenyls in hydraulic 2 0 applications. Yes, that's correct, it was 2 1 that meeting. 2 2 Q All right, and then the last 2 3 sentence of this exhibit indicates that, 2 4 "Further progress on the program should be 2 5 reviewed with the committee in the first GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 250 WATER PCB-SD0000034575 1 quarter of 1971. Is that correct? 2 A . Yes. 3 Q . In the "Conclusions" section, 4 there, there is a sentence that says, "The 5 three month's extension requested for phasing 6 out of products in hydraulic fluids was 7 approved with the caution that the division 8 continue to exert pressure to move this 9 program as fast as possible." In connection 1 0 with the meetings on this program that you 1 1 have proposed initially in 1970, was the CMC 1 2 putting pressure on'you at all phases? 1 3 A. Yes, certainly. 1 4 Q. Then if you would take a look at 1 5 1058 and 1057, please? 1 6 A . Yes. 1 7 Q. And are these, these are documents 1 8 you identified yesterday as connected with 1 9 the meeting just referenced that -- for the 2 0 first quarter of 1971; is that right? 2 1 A. Yes, they extract from the minutes 22 of Management Committee on March 2 3 the 8th, 1971. 2 4 Q. And 1058 was your presentation? 2 5 A. Information used by me to report GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 251 WATER PCB-SD0000034576 1 on the status at that Corporate Management 2 Committee meeting, yes. 3 Q. Again, that was a progress report? 4 A . Yes. 5 Q. And you were -- was it your 6 purpose to advise CMC as to how you are 7 coming along with respect to this program? 8 A . Yes. 9 Q. Could you take a look at 387, page 1 0 387of Exhibit 1058, the big one? 1 1 A. "Transformers andcapacitors"? 1 2 Q . Right. T`h e last sentence, there, 1 3 says, "Awaiting approval of MCS 1016 by 1 4 customers." What does that refer to, sir? 1 5 A. It refers to the modified 1242 to 1 6 remove as much as possible of the 1 7 higher-ch1orinated isomers. 1 8 Q. Why was it necessary to get 1 9 customer approval? 2 0 A. Well, you are dealing with a 2 1 highly technical application, and however 2 2 much we could be satisfied ourselves in the 2 3 laboratory work that it was a suitable 2 4 replacement, it had to be finalized by our 2 5 customer. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 252 WATER PCB-SD0000034577 1 Q. In other words, the customers had 2 to give their approval? 3 A . Absolutely. There was no , n o 4 way -- you are talking about highly expensive 5 equipment, not sort of using it in a minor 6 application. 7 Q. Was that true for a number of 8 proposed replacement products? 9 A. Oh, very much so. Anything using 1 0 significant equipment -- and you are talking 11 significant quantities -- had to be approved 1 2 by a customer. ' 1 3 Q Turning your attention to 1 0 57, 1 4 the last page of that,, i t s ays , the top 1 5 sentence says, "The divi sion feels that it 1 6 has e s s e n tially met its goals in the 17 s i x - point program." Doe s that refer , sir, to 1 8 the time deadlines? 1 9 A . Yes. 2 0 Q And was it a 1 so a goal of this 2 1 plan to r educe the usage of PCBs in general? 2 2 A . Yes, and particularly, of course , 2 3 the ones with the higher chlorination . 2 4 Q And was that accomplished , i n 2 5 part? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 253 WATER PCB-SD0000034578 1 A . Yes, we believe so. 2 Q. And what kind of reduction did you 3 report to the meeting at that time? 4 A. Well, the reduction was from the 5 74 million pounds in 1969 to 45 million 6 pounds in 1971. 7 Q. And during that time, were you 8 able to maintain profitability? 9 A. In general, yes. There was some 1 0 reduction in profitability, and of course, 1 1 there was a one-time cost of developing some 1 2 of those replacement' products. 1 3 Q. The capital expenditures that we 1 4 discussed? 1 5 A. The capital and research and 1 6 development costs, yes. That, the factor of 1 7 cost of achievement include additional, the 1 8 word term used is S-A-R-E, sales 1 9 administration research expense, engineering 2 0 expense of five hundred in 1970, five hundred 2 1 thousand in 1970. '2 2 Q. And then three hundred thousand in 2 3 19 7 1? 2 4 A. In 1971, yes. 2 5 Q. All right, I'd like to turn your GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 25 4 WATER 1 attention, please, to Exhibit 1060, which is 2 the third letter that you addressed to 3 Congressman Ryan. 4 A. A letter dated March the 24th, 5 19 7 1. 6 Q Yes, that one, and if you would 7 turn to -- it's the bottom two lines of page 8 2, through the remainder of that paragraph on 9 page 3 , if you would just read that to 1 0 yourself. 1 1 (Witness peruses said 1 2 doc' urn e n t . ) 13 A. Yes. 1 4 Q. Was the issue of disclosure of 1 5 sales and production figures still something 1 6 that Congressman Ryan was concerned with? 17 A. Very much so, yes. 1 8 Q. And what was Monsanto's position 1 9 in March of 1971? 2 0 A. Well, our position showed no 2 1 change, as I mentioned here from the last 2 2 letter which I wrote to him on June 30th, 23 1970. We still considered the information 2 4 extremely confidential and could be of great 2 5 assistance to our European competitors, GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 25 5 WATER 1 although we were still willing to release the 2 information to a government agency on the 3 assurance that the information would be used 4 only for scientific purposes and kept 5 confidential. 6 Q. And then could you read the next 7 paragraph, there, sir, on page 3? 8 (Witness peruses said 9 document.) 1 0 A . Yes. 1 1 Q As of March of 1971, were the 1 2 usages of PCB products manufactured by 1 3 Monsanto restricted to closed system 1 4 applications? 1 5 A . In general, yes. 1 6 Q And was it Monsanto's belief, and 1 7 yours in particular, that the public was 1 8 unlikely to come into contact with such 1 9 systems, using PCBs? 2 0 A . It was, yes. 2 1 Q And with respect to labeling, were 2 2 products contained that were being shipped 2 3 from Monsanto containing environmental 2 4 labels? 2 5 A. Yes, all material going out, all GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 256 WATER PCB-SD0000034581 1 polychlorinated biphenyls being shipped were 2 labeled by that time, identifying them as a 3 possible environmental pollutant. 4 MR. PREUSS: I'd like to mark next 5 for identification a letter to Mr. Mason from 6 a John D. Ba 1deschwie1er , dated October 13, 7 1971, spelled B - a - 1 - d-e-s - c - h-w-i-e-1-e-r. 8 (Defendant's Deposition 9 . Exhibit 1067 marked for 1 0 identification.) 1 1 (Witness peruses said 1 2 d o c um e n t . ) 1 3 BY MR. PREUS S : . 1 4 Q. Could you identify this letter for 1 5 us, please? 1 6 A. Yes, it is a letter addressed to 1 7 me from the Executive Office of the 1 8 President, Office of Science and Technology, 1 9 acknowledging appreciation of the assistance 2 0 we have offered in the continuing study of 2 1 polychlorinated biphenyls. It also points 2 2 out that they now understand that Monsanto 2 3 Company will supply certain information 2 4 regarding the domestic manufacture and sale 2 5 of polychlorinated biphenyls in order to GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 257 WATER PCB-SD0000034582 1 assist in the government study of the present 2 and future buildup of PCBs in the 3 environment. 4 Q. So as of this time, you received 5 the assurances that the production and sales 6 figures would be kept confidential from the 7 Executive Office of the President? 8 A . Yes, he points out in the last 9 paragraph that the information will be 1 0 treated on a privileged and confidential 1 1 basis and will not be disseminated to the 1 2 public or outside the government except as a 1 3 necessary inclusion in any report released by 1 4 the Office of Science and Technology or any 1 5 other government agency or organization. 1 6 Q. And did Monsanto then release the 17 figures? 1 8 A. Yes, the figures were released to 1 9 the Office. 20 MR. PREUSS: I'd like to mark next 2 1 for identification an editorial entitled "The 2 2 White Hat For Industry" appearing in May, I 23 can't read the precise date, but it looks 2 4 like early May 1971, in the ""Chemical and 2 5 Engineering News"," May 3rd, 1971. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 258 WATER PCB-SD0000034583 1 (Defendant's Deposition 2 Exhibit 1068 marked for 3 identification.) 4 BY MR . PREUS S : 5 Q . Can you identify this doc ume n t, 6 please, Mr. Mason? 7 A. Yes,, i t appe ar s to be a n extract 8 from "Chemical and Engineering News,, " which 9 is a United Kingdom publication, and the date 1 0 being May 3rd, 19 7 1. 1 1 Q And is this an editorial, sir? 1 2 A . Yes, it " say s at the top it is 1 3 editorial c omme n t, yes. 1 4 Q And is the " Chemical and 1 5 Engineering News" a well-regarded publication 1 6 in the scientific commmunity? 1 7 A. Yes, scientific, engineering and 1 8 manufacturing community, yes. 1 9 Q. And did you receive a copy of this 2 0 editorial at or about May of 1971? 2 1 A. Monsanto -- I'm not sure who 2 2 received this copy. 2 3 Q. Does your name appear, there, on a 2 4 copyright to the right there , you see? 2 5 A . Yes, it did. yes. W e probably GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 259 | WATER PCB-SD0000034584 1 picked up in Europe, probably in the United 2 Kingdom, and then passed here to theUnited 3 States . 4 Q. What was the thrust of this 5 editorial,sir? 6 A. I think the thrust of the 7 editorial was to congratulate Monsanto on 8 taking a responsible attitude in dealing with 9 the polychlorinated biphenyl environmental 1 0 problem, particularly taking this action 1 1 without being forced to by regulations, 1 2 governmental regulatio n s . 1 3 Q. In the editorial, sir, entitled 1 4 "The White Hat For Industry," the editor, 1 5 Patrick McCurdy, M-c capital C-u-r-d-y, makes 1 6 reference to a John Tinker, T-i-n-k-e-r, 17 article in the April 1 issue of "New 1 8 Scientist and Science," and is "New Scientist 1 9 and Science" a respected scientific journal, 2 0 sir? 2 1 A. Yes, it is, again, it is a U . K . 2 2 journal. It is well respected. 2 3 Q. In the, I think it's the fourth or 2 4 fifth paragraph, the last sentence, there, it 2 5 says, "But this cannot be allowed to obscure GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 260 | WATER PCB-SD0000034585 1 the unprecedented nature of acceptance of 2 charges before guilt has been scientifically 3 proved." You see that sentence there, sir? 4 A . Yes. ' 5 Q. What was your understanding of 6 that when you read that? 7 A . Well, I think the gist o f it, as 8 understand it, is that a lthough some people 9 might see Monsanto ' s act ions as a desperate 1 0 throe to retain at least part of the 1 1 lucrative market, that Monsanto has made it 1 2 very clear that it 'believes that the partial 1 3 PCB ban is not only in the interests of the 1 4 environment and the general public, but its 1 5 own long-term interests on the basis that one 1 6 is going to be able to use useful products 1 7 which -- in a controlled manner which is not 1 8 going to be a danger to the environment, and 1 9 I think that he's also indicating that it is 2 0 unusual for a company like Monsanto to accept 2 1 such charges before they are completely 2 2 scientifically proved. 2 3 Q . In the last paragraph, Mr. McCurdy 2 4 says, "All in all, we would say that the 2 5 company has ac ted in an altogether GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 261 WATER PCB-SD0000034586 1 enlightened way, nicely balancing questions 2 of public and private (its own) good and we 3 think other firms would do well to study this 4 case history." In your view, did you feel 5 that Monsanto, and you in particular, in 6 carrying out your job here in the United 7 States, during the time frame we've been 8 discussing, were balancing both the public 9 interest as well as Monsanto's interests? 1 0 MS. WELCH: Objection, highly 1 1 leading. 1 2 A. I certainly think that Monsanto's 1 3 actions were balanced". I certainly tried to 1 4 protect the interests of the shareholders, 1 5 the general public, the environment, and 16 there's no way I can comment on my own 1 7 performance. I hope it contributed to it, 1 8 but it was certainly my belief that this was 1 9 the right way to handle the problem. 2 0 BY MR. PREUS S : 2 1 Q. In your view, was management that 2 2 you reported to receptive to your views in 2 3 how to balance public and private interests? 2 4 A. I think very definitely they were, 2 6 yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 26 2 WATER PCB-SD0000034587 1 MR. PREUSS: I'd like to mark next 2 for identification a letter dated September 3 24 , 1971, to a Mr. L. S. Waldorf, d - o - r - f , 4 from Mr. Mason. 5 (Defendant's Deposition 6 Exhibit 1069 marked for 7 identification.) 8 (Witness peruses said 9 document . ) 10 THE WITNESS: It's a letter to Mr. 1 1 L. S. Waldorf, A&P Coffee Division, Great 1 2 Atlantic and Pacific' Company, dated September 1 3 24th. ' 1 4 BY MR. PREUS S : 1 5 Q. And was this a letter that you 1 6 authored, sir? 1 7 A. Yes. I think it, I think it was a 1 8 letter which was sent to many companies using 1 9 polychlorinated biphenyls in areas associated 2 0 with food, pharmaceuticals, following the 2 1 East Coast Terminals incident when the 2 2 decision was taken that in no way would we 2 3 supply polychlorinated phenyls for heat 2 4 transfer usage in any of these applications. 2 5 Q. And can you tell us again what a GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 263 WATER PCB-SD0000034588 1 heat transfer application is? 2 A. It's where polychlorinated 3 biphenyls are used to raise temperature. For 4 example, in the East Coast Terminal 5 situation, it was in a mixing machine which 6 was pasteurizing, I think there were Chilean 7 fish meal, I think it was -- I may have got 8 the term wrong -- where the paddles, the 9 blades which were rotating in the fish meal 1 0 were hollow and were using polychlorinated 1 1 biphenyls as the method of heating the blades 1 2 and transferring t ha t heat to the material in 1 3 question. That probably -- there were 1 4 several applications of that type which we 1 5 later, we found, of course, were quite 1 6 unsatisfactory, although we believed them to 1 7 be a completely closed s y s t e m . 1 8 Q Did the East C o a st Terminal 1 9 incident cause Monsanto t o change its policy, 2 0 then, with respect to -- 2 1 A. Yes -- excuse me. '2 2 Q. -- with respect to heat transfer 2 3 fluid application where that application 2 4 could potentially come in contact with food? 2 5 A. It certainly did, and I think -- GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 264 WATER PCB-SD0000034589 1 Q What was the change? 2 A. The change was under no 3 circumstances would we sell polychlorinated 4 biphenyls for that application, for that 5 application in those industries. 6 Q. In page 2 of this letter, where 7 it's outlined certain steps that Monsanto 8 agreed to undertake with respect to the 9 fluids, what were those, sir? 10 A. One, we would not supply any , 11 additional material for makeup, and we urge 1 2 that you proceed immediately with the 1 3 conversion of your FR' system to a non-PCB 1 4 Therminol 66 which is being provided at no 1 5 charge. We are also providing labels which 1 6 can be used to attach to the used Therminol 17 FR containers for shipment back to us for 1 8 disposal. That of course, means incineration 1 9 in our plant. 2 0 It points outs, "We also pay the 2 1 freight back for disposal as well as the 2 2 normal disposal charge. 2 3 Q. So that one, this particular PCB- 2 4 containing heat transfer fluid would no 2 5 longer be sold. Is that right? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 26 5 WATER PCB-SD0000034590 1 A . Correct . 2 Q. And that Monsanto was willing to 3 supply at no cost a substitute product? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And to dispose at no cost of the 6 drained heat transfer fluid? 7 A. That is correct. 8 Q. The reference to FR is fire 9 resistant? Is that what that means? 1 0 A. Fire resistance, yes. Yes. 1 1 Q. And the next-to-last paragraph 1 2 indicates what, sir'?1 1 3 A. It indicates again that they urged 1 4 as quickly as possible to convert the 1 5 Therminol FR system to prevent any further 1 6 "Contamination with your product." 17 Q. Did the East Coast Terminal 1 8 incident prompt any thinking on your part as 1 9 to other action that Monsanto should take in 2 0 general with respect to PCB products? 2 1 A. Yes, I think it was becoming 2 2 abundantly clear that there were very few 2 3 truly closed systems where we could rely on 2 4 the fact that polychlorinated biphenyls would 2 5 not leak out into the environment, and I GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 266 WATER PCB-SD0000034591 1 think it caused us to start thinking very 2 seriously at that stage that we might have to 3 withdraw practically all applications, maybe 4 with just the exception of transformers and 5 capacitors. 6 Q. Would you turn your attention to 7 1061, please, sir, which is the memo from Mr. 8 Gossage to Mr. Cunningham, dated November 9 16th, 1971? 1 0 A. Yes, I have it here. 1 1 Q. Could you just take a minute to 1 2 review that? ' 1 3 (Witness peruses said 1 4 document . ) 1 5 A . Yes. 1 6 Q Now, in November of 1971, you 1 7 indicated that your replacement was, was 1 8 board? Is that correct? 1 9 A . Yes, I -- could I make I 2 0 correction to that? 2 1 Q Sure. 2 2 A . He was, I think I said I was 2 3 replaced by Wink Corey at that time. I don't 2 4 think that is quite true, because thinking 2 5 about it, I did continue to be involved in GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 26 7 j WATER PCB-SD0000034592 1 this situation right up to the end of 1971, 2 and I did, in fact, make a further 3 presentation to the board of directors in 4 December 1971. I think more correct to say I 5 was working with Wink Corey and bringing him 6 into the situation, bringing him up-to-date 7 at that point in time. 8 Q So you were, you were still then 9 playing an active role with respect to the 1 0 PCB issue -- 1 1 A . Yes, I -- 1 2 Q. -- up to' the time that you left? 1 3 A. Yes, I was% 1 4 Q. The second paragraph, here, makes 1 5 reference to the East Coast Terminal episode, 1 6 sir. What was being done at the time with 1 7 respect to handling orders for heat transfer 1 8 fluid? 1 9 A. Well, almost all orders were being 2 0 approved on a case-by-case basis, either by 2 1 the Product Group, itself, or by Tom Gossage, 2 2 who was Marketing Director of Functional 2 3 Products Group at that time. 2 4 Q. What was the reason for that? 2 5 A. The make absolutely certain that GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 268 WATER PCB-SD0000034593 1 we were not selling these products to any 2 uses connected with food, or pharmaceuticals, 3 or nonclosed systems. 4 Q. And did you have a, an approved 5 versus a nonapproved list at the time for 6 customers that were still using A r o c 1 o r 7 products? 8 A . Yes, that's correct. 9 Q And did they have to be approved 1 0 before they -- an order was filled? 1 1 A . Yes 1 2 Q And that -approved customer list r 1 3 then, was made up by whom ? 1 4 A . I t was made up by t h e Product 1 5 Group and with Bill Papageorge concerned, o f 1 6 course 1 7 Q I n the fourth paragr aph, you ta Ik 1 8 about mis cellaneous industrial fluid lists o f 1 9 approved customers, and there's a reference 2 0 to Turbinol 153. What is that reference, 2 1 sir? 2 2 A. Referring to a miscellaneous If 3 2 3 industrial fluid application of Turbinol 3^, 2 4 which, of course, is the product which we 2 5 have supplied and we continue to supply to GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 269 WATER PCB-SD0000034594 1 Texas Eastern Transmission Corporation. 2 Q. Was that considered a closed 3 system by Monsanto? 4 A. It certainly was considered a 5 closed system. 6 Q. And was Texas Eastern Transmission 7 Corporation an approved customer for the 8 Turbinol 153 as of that time? 9 A. Yes, they were. 1 0 Q. Did you regard Turbinol 153 as a 1 1 miscellaneous industrial fluid application, 1 2 sir? . 1 3 A. Yes, we did, specialized, I would 1 4 say. I would use the word "specialized" 1 5 usage, myself. 1 6 MR. PREUSS: I'd like to mark next 17 for identification a report on the Bureau 1 8 International Technique, (BIT) meeting on PCB 1 9 pollution. 2 0 Counsel, this does not bear a TRAN 2 1 number. It is my understanding that this has 2 2 been produced to you. I will confirm that at 2 3 alatertime. 2 4 MS. WELCH: And I will object on 2 5 the basis that I do not believe it's been GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 27 0 WATER PCB-SD0000034595 1 produced. I have not seen this document 2 before, and I would agree with you that you 3 should confirm that it has, and if not, I'll 4 protest that it hasn't been produced prior to 5 the deposition. 6 (Defendant's Deposition 7 Exhibit 1070 marked for 8 identification.) 9 (Witness peruses said 1 0 document . ) 1 1 BY MR. PREUS S : 1 2 Q. Can you identify this report for 1 3 us, sir, please? . 1 4 A. Yes, it appears to be the report 1 5 of a meeting of the BIT, which is the 1 6 European organization which is really 1 7 designed to cover technical across-industry 1 8 problems when they arise in Europe. 1 9 Q. And the date of this memo is what? 2 0 A. November 29th, 1971. 2 1 Q. And turning to page 2, did you 2 2 receive a copy o f that? 2 3 A . Yes , I did. 2 4 Q . And a t that time, you were still 2 5 in St. Louis? I s that correct? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 271 WATER PCB-SD0000034596 1 A . I was still in St. Louis. 2 Q. At that time, were you aware that 3 you were going to be moving back to Europe to 4 assume new job responsibilities at -- 5 A. Yes, I certainly was, and in view 6 of that, this was of considerable interest to 7 me. I remember it well. 8 Q. On page 2, there, there is a -- 9 begins with a Monsanto position? You see 1 0 that? 1 1 A. Yes. 1 2 Q. And Roman- numeral I refers to 1 3 what, sir, under the Monsanto position? 1 4 A. "Defined controllable 1 5 a p p 1 i cations; 1, capacitors; 2, 1 6 t r a n s formers; 3, vacuum pumps; four, turbine 1 7 c o n t r ol fluids." 1 8 Q And was it your understanding a s 1 9 well, that t u r b i n e control fluids were 2 0 d e f i n e d by M o n s a n t o as a controlled 2 1 application? 2 2 A . Yes . 2 3 Q. And would Turbinol 153 be a 2 4 turbine control fluid, in your view? 2 5 A. Yes, it certainly would. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 272 WATER PCB-SD0000034597 1 MR. PREUS S : I'd like to mark next 2 for identification a document entitled 3 "Status Report, Polychlorinated Biphenyls," 4 dated November 12th, 1971, a multipage 5 document. 6 (Defendant ' s Deposition 7 Exhibit 1071 marked for 8 (Witness peruses said 9 document.) identification.) 1 0 BY MR. PREUS S : 1 1 Q. Could you identify this document 1 2 for us, please, sir?- 1 3 A. Yes, I think so. I think, and I'm 1 4 not 100 percent sure on this, that this is a 1 5 preliminary draft of a presentation which I 1 6 was being asked to give to the Monsanto board 1 7 at that meeting in December of 1971. I think 1 8 it is a draft because there are -- it's -- 1 9 the charts or slides are interspersed with 2 0 handprinted comments of my own. I think 2 1 probably that I was reviewing this proposed 2 2 presentation with my then boss, Press 2 3 Cunningham. That is my opinion, but I can't 2 4 be 100 percent sure on that, but -- 2 5 Q. You are sure that -- is that your GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 273 WATER PCB-SD0000034598 1 name on the first page? 2 A. Oh, it certainly is, yes. 3 Q. And you recognize that the 4 handwritten portions are yours? 5 A. Oh, yes, yes, it is my awful 6 print, yes. 7 Q. And you do have specific 8 recollection of making a presentation to the 9 board in 19 - 1 0 A. I certainly do, yes. 1 1 Q. At the end of 1971? 12 A . Yes. - 1 3 Q. That would, be in December, sir? 1 4 A . Yes. 1 5 Q. And you mentioned the board: The 1 6 board of directors, as distinguished from the 1 7 CMC ? 1 8 A. The Monsanto board of directors, 1 9 yes. 2 0 Q. And that's distinguished from the 2 1 CMC; correct? 2 2 A. Yes, it is, correct, all over. 2 3 Q. What's the distinction? 2 4 A. Well, the distinction is that the 2 5 Monsanto board of directors, of course, in GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 27 4 WATER PCB-SD0000034599 1 addition to including management directors, 2 also includes a number of outside directors. 3 MR. PREUSS: I'd like to mark next 4 for identification a multipage document that 5 has the initials "HSB" on the top with 6 November 19th, 1971 -- actually, 11/19/71 on 7 top, beginning with TRAN number 002485. 8 (Defendant's's Deposition 9 . Exhibit 1072 marked for 1 0 identification.) 1 1 (Witness peruses said 12 dociimen t . ) 13 A . Yes. ' 1 4 BY MR. PREUSS: 1 5 Q. The initials "HSB" stand for what, 1 6 sir? 1 7 A. Howard Bergen. 1 8 Q. Now, he was still reporting to you 1 9 at the time? 2 0 A . Yes. 2 1 Q. Can you identify the document, 2 2 sir? 2 3 A. I think, again, this was a 2 4 document prepared prior to the board 2 5 presentation. I think its purpose was to GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 275 WATER PCB-SD0000034600 1 evaluate the impact of a withdrawal from all 2 PCB sales except for transformers and 3 capacitors. I think it's an attempt to see 4 what problems would be associated with this, 5 if there would be legal liability, the impact 6 on profitability, and what actions would have 7 to be taken to achieve such a plan. 8 Q. Was this prepared by people, then, 9 that reported to you, sir, to the best of 1 0 your knowledge? 11 A. Yes, this would be prepared, would 1 2 be prepared by the Product Group, by the 1 3 Business Group under Howard Bergen. 1 4 Q. And was this presentation to the 1 5 board something that you discussed with your 1 6 boss, Mr. Cunningham, before making it? 1 7 A. Very definitely, yes. 1 8 Q. And what was your recommendation 1 9 to the board in connection with the 2 0 continuation of products other than those 2 1 used by the electrical industry in capacitors 2 2 and transformers? 2 3 A. A recommendation to the board, as 2 4 I recall it, was that we should terminate all 2 5 business except for sales to transformer and GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 27 6 WATER PCB-SD0000034601 1 capacitor manufacturers, and those should 2 only be made in return, of course, with a 3 completely hold harmless letter situation. 4 Q. What did you understand a hold 5 harmless letter situation to be? 6 A. Well, from my point of view, that 7 if in any way polychlorinated biphenyls 8 leaked into the environment, essentially it 9 would have to be due to negligence on the 1 0 part of the transformer producers or even the 1 1 transformer users, then Monsanto would be 1 2 held harmless against any liability. 1 3 Q. And what had led to your 1 4 recommendation in this regard between the 1 5 March '71 meeting and December of 1971? 1 6 A. I think, essentially, it was the 1 7 East Coast Terminals problem, which I think 1 8 convinced us that there was no way that we 1 9 could be sure that we were selling two 2 0 entirely closed systems, except in the case 2 1 of transformers and capacitors. I think I've 2 2 tried to stress before that we were always 2 3 learning as w e went along in this s ituation. 2 4 and it was new ground for all of u s , and I 2 5 don'1 t think i t was anything wrong i n changing GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 277 WATER PCB-SD0000034602 1 our approach and attitude from what we had 2 learned. 3 Q. As -- turning to 1071,here, sir, 4 there are some companies that are listed in 5 connection with certain products or product 6 types. Was there an attempt or did you seek 7 information on what the likely impact would 8 be from customers if Monsanto cut off the 9 supply of their Aroclor products? 1 0 A. Yes, we certainly did. 1 1 Q. And was this information, or from 1 2 whom in the organization was this information 1 3 on likely customer re-action obtained? 1 4 A. It would be obtained from the 1 5 business groups who were selling to these 1 6 companies products other than the 17 polychlorinated biphenyls, and an attempt was 1 8 made to look at the total sales position and 1 9 a possible impact there could be if we 2 0 withdrew, in most cases, fire-resistant 2 1 heat -- excuse me, heat transfer fluids 2 2 precipitously without giving them any time to 2 3 make alternative arrangements. 2 4 Q. And did you want to be prepared 2 5 for questions from the board in connection GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 27 8 WATER PCB-SD0000034603 1 with what customer reaction might be? 2 A. Absolutely. It was absolutely 3 essential. 4 Q. Turning to page 382, which is the 5 last page of this exhibit, deals with Texas 6 Eastern Gas Transmission Company? 7 MS. WELCH: What's your reference 8 to 382, Counsel? 9 MR. PREUSS: The reference to 1 0 Texas Eastern Gas Transmission Company. 1 1 MS. WELCH: The page is 2491, 1 2 then? 1 3 MR. PREUSS-: I'm sorry. 2491. 1 4 BY MR. PREUS S : 1 5 Q. What information did you receive 1 6 from your customer people with respect to an 1 7 anticipated reaction from Texas Eastern Gas 1 8 Transmission if their supply of Turbinol 153 19 was terminated? 2 0 A. This information obviously must 2 1 have come from Howard Bergen's Functional 2 2 Products Group, bee a u s e t o the best o f my 2 3 knowledge, Monsanto was not selling any other 2 4 products to Eastern Gas Transmission I 2 5 could be wrong, but t o the best of my GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 279 WATER PCB-SD0000034604 1 knowledge, and the Business Group's reaction 2 would be that an immediate precipitious 3 withdrawal of the product could be disastrous 4 for Texas Eastern Gas Transmission Company 5 and could expose us to a significant lawsuit. 6 Q. In December, you made the 7 presentation to the board with these 8 recommendations? Is that correct? 9 A . Yes . 1 0 Q. And was Mr. Cunningham there with 1 1 you? 1 2 A. Mr. Cunningham certainly was, and 1 3 Mr. Cunningham, of course, was a member of 1 4 the Monsanto board at that.time. 1 5 Q. And how did the board react to 16 your recommendations? . 1 7 A. The board reaction was very 1 8 positive and strong pressure that we should 1 9 implement these actions immediately. If I 2 0 remember correctly, the company secretary at 2 1 that time was charged with looking into these 2 2 possiblelegal implications of the 2 3 precipitous action, but we were charged with 2 4 going ahead immediately and phasing out of 2 5 everything except dielectric products for the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 280 WATER PCB-SD0000034605 1 transformer and capacitor industries. 2 Q. Are you familiar with the name 3 Frederick Eaton? 4 A. Yes, I am. 5 Q. And who is Frederick Eaton? 6 A. Frederick Eaton, at that time, was 7 a member of Monsanto board. 8 Q. He was a member and was he 9 present, to your recollection, in the 1 0 December 1971 meeting? 1 1 A. Yes, he was, yes. 1 2 Q. And based- on comments from Mr. 1 3 Eaton at that meeting., did Mr. Eaton concur 1 4 in your recommendation? 1 5 A. He did, yes, he concurred. 1 6 Q. Is that the only time that you had 17 been before the board, sir? 1 8 A. No, I had not made a major 1 9 presentation to the board but Ihad been 2 0 present with my boss at some previous board 2 1 meetings when this subject had been 2 2 discussed. 2 3 Q. When you say "this subject," you 2 4 are talking about -- 2 5 A. I'm talking about -- GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 281 WATER PCB-SD0000034606 1 Q. -- the subject of how to handle a 2 PCB issue? 3 A. Excuse me. Polychlorinated 4 biphenyls, yes. 5 Q And had Mr. Eaton been pres e n t a t 6 those occasions where you were a t the board 7 meetings ? 8 A . Yes , he had. 9 Q And at those meetings, as w ell t 1 0 had Mr. Eaton concurred in the a c t i o n o f the 1 1 board and the direction of the b o a r d ? 1 2 A . He c o n c u r-r e d in the d i recti o n that 1 3 we were posing , and he' d emphasiz e 1 i k e the hot k 1 4 President at the time, M r . that w e 1 5 should carry out our plans as rapidly as 16 possible and as completely as possible. He 1 7 was interested in the subject. 1 8 Q. Sir, in addition to dealing with 1 9 the board or meeting with the board and CMC 2 0 and its predecessor, the CDC, as we've 2 1 discussed, did you also have occasion to 2 2 visit with individual members of the board 2 3 time to time about the PCB problem? 2 4 A . Yes, I did. 2 5 Q And who in particular did you? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 282 WATER PCB-SD0000034607 1 A. Well, primarily, John Eck, who Mr. 2 B-a-cti' charged with a special interest in this 3 area. John Eck was a member of Monsanto 4 board, he had previously been a director of 5 manufacturing of the corporation, and his 6 specialty interest had always been the 7 manufacturing end. Mr. Bach felt that this 8 was a subject where he could be of 9 considerable help and guidance. 1 0 Q. And so you would meet with Mr. Eck fc. ' 1 1 more often, but also with Mr. 'B'arcif'' with 1 2 respect to special inquiries that they had of 1 3 you individually, as opposed to in the 1 4 meeting setting; is that right? 1 5 A. Yes, more often than not with John 1 6 Eck. 1 7 Q. Final subject, sir. Yesterday, 1 8 you mentioned that Monsanto had periodic 1 9 m e e tings in which it would gathe r its sales 2 0 p e o pie and organizational people from around 2 1 the country to bring them up to speed o n 2 2 sal es issues and the PCB issues particularly; 2 3 i s that correct? 2 4 A. Yes, I was referring specifically 2 5 to Functional Products Business Group, GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 283 WATER PCB-SD0000034608 1 meeting of their salesmen and their regional 2 sales managers. 3 Q. And how often did those meetings 4 occur? ' 5 A. I would think probably once a 6 quarter would be my guesstimate: About that 7 frequency. 8 Q. And at that, at the time of these 9 meetings, was it your understanding that the 1 0 status of the PCB issue and Monsanto's 1 1 position on that was discussed at these 1 2 meetings? - 1 3 A. Certainly.. 1 4 MR. PREUSS: I have no further 1 5 questions at this time. Perhaps we can take 1 6 a break. 17 MS. WELCH: Let's take a, let's 1 8 say a break till 20 till, and then we'll 1 9 resume . 2 0 MR. PREUSS: That'll be fine. 2 1 (Recess from 10:30 to 10:40.) 2 2 FURTHER EXAMINATION 2 3 BY MS. WELCH: 2 4 Q. Good morning, Mr. Mason. 2 5 A. Good morning. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 284 WATER PCB-SD0000034609 1 Q. You understand that you are under 2 oath today just as you were yesterday, even 3 though you weren't sworn in again; is that 4 right? 5 A . Yes, I am. 6 Q. This morning, when Mr. Preuss was 7 asking you questions, you testified that when 8 you found out that a system was not closed, 9 that your perspective on that system somewhat 1 0 changed as in the East Coast Terminal 1 1 incident; is that correct? 12 A . Yes ` - 1 3 Q . And so your view of whether a 1 4 PCB-containing fluid should be used in that 1 5 system changed 16 A . Yes - 17 Q . Mr . Mason, you never visited with 1 8 Texas Eastern, did you? 1 9 A . No , I did not. 2 0 Q . Are you familiar with the company 2 1 Transwestern P ipeline Company? 2 2 A . No , I am not. I' v e heard i t 2 3 mentioned, but I'm not familiar with it, no. 2 4 Q . You never visited with them -- 2 5 A . No , I've not. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 285 WATER PCB-SD0000034610 1 Q . either? 2 You have to wait until I finish 3 asking the question. 4 Have you ever seen a gas 5 compressor in a turbine unit? 6 A . Not to my -- no, I don't think I 7 have. 8 Q. You don't have a degree in 9 mechanical engineering, do you? 1 0 A. No, I do not. 1 1 Q. You are not a specialist in 1 2 lubricants, are you?1 3 A. No, I am not. 1 4 Q. And in 'fact, you would rely on 1 5 people who were inMonsanto's Technical 1 6 Department who had contact with customers to 1 7 tell the Business Group about how that kind 1 8 of machinery worked, wouldn't you? 1 9 A . Yes. 2 0 Q. Are you familiar with a man by the 2 1 name of Dr. Roger Hatton? 2 2 A . Yes. 2 3 Q. Do you regard Dr. Hatton -- do you 2 4 respect Dr. Hatton's work? 2 5 A . Yes, I do. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 286 WATER PCB-SD0000034611 1 Q Do you think that he is a 2 competent and able or was a competent and 3 able employee of Monsanto? 4 A. I'm quite certain he was, yes. 5 Q. And that he would seriously look 6 at an application of one of the Aroclors to 7 determine how that Aroclor should be used? 8 A . Yes. 9 Q . As far as you know , you have no 1 0 questions about the comp e t e n c e of Dr . 1 1 Hatton's work? 1 2 A . No, I d o n o t have any. 1 3 Q If Dr . Hat-ton had told you or 1 4 someone else in the B u si ness Group that the 1 5 Turbinol 153 and its p r e d e c e s s o r , MCS 153, 1 6 was not only being used as a lubricant in a 1 7 turbine compressor system, but was being used 1 8 as a seal oil under very high pressure and 1 9 would actually come in contact with the 2 0 natural gas as it flowed through the 2 1 compressor, would that alter your opinion 2 2 about whether the compressor and turbine was 2 3 a closed system? 2 4 MR. PREUSS: Objection: No 2 5 foundation; assuming facts not in evidence. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 287 WATER PCB-SD0000034612 1 A. I would certainly have been very 2 concerned if he had explained this to me, and 3 I should have probably wanted more 4 information. 5 BY MS. WELCH: 6 Q. All right. Now, you testified 7 just before that you never visited with Texas 8 Eastern or Transwestern; is that correct? 9 A. That's correct. 1 0 Q. So this morning, when Mr. Preuss 1 1 asked you -- and referring to the letter that 1 2 you sent to Mrs. T uc ke r, which is Exhibit 1 3 1065, which we can refer to -- there is a 1 4 reference -- I'll wait till you find that. 1 5 A. I'm sorry, I think I've got things 1 6 slightly mixed up, here. 1 7 (Pause) 1 8 Okay, thank you. 1 9 Q You got it? 2 0 A . Yes 2 1 Q A t the bottom of page 3 is a 2 2 sentence that you talked about with Mr. 2 3 Preuss, and this sentence is, "It is our firm 2 4 belief that by working with customers who are 2 5 well aware of the environmental problem and GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 288 WATER PCB-SD0000034613 1 are conscientiously working to achieve the 2 maximum degree of control, we can protect the 3 environment and continue to make available 4 these materials which are so vitally needed 5 by man in his daily life." 6 Just as with the technical 7 expertise in terms of the compressors and 8 turbines, you would rely on the salesmen or 9 the field representatives to actually have 1 0 the contact with the customer to talk to them 1 1 about the issues of PCBs and the need for 1 2 control; is that right? 1 3 A. In most cases, yes. 1 4 Q. Did you ever visit with Texas 1 5 Eastern or Transwestern to talk to them about 1 6 these measures that were needed? 1 7 A. No, I did not. 1 8 Q. So you don't really know whether 1 9 anyone actually talked about these measures 2 0 with them? 2 1 A. I don't -- I cannot be dogmatic 2 2 and say yes because I don't, but I would 2 3 expect it so, and I would have been very 2 4 surprised if people hadn't visited them to 2 5 talk about these measures. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 289 WATER PCB-SD0000034614 1 You would assume s o ; is that 2 right? 3 A. Well I don't like the word 4 assumption. I would have believed it was 5 almost a certainty because I assume in this 6 case, assume that people were doing their 7 job. 8 Q. But because you actually didn't do 9 it -- and no one reported to you that they 1 0 had done it, did they -- 11 A . No. 1 2 Q. -- in terms of Texas Eastern, 1 3 there is some degree of uncertainty. 1 4 A. There could be some degree of 1 5 uncertainty, but in my opinion, my job was 1 6 not to get involved in the detail of any 1 7 specific customer unless I was particularly 1 8 asked to, either by the customer, or by the 1 9 salesman or the sales manager concerned who 2 0 needed some support in that area. 2 1 Q . Were you ever asked to contact 2 2 Texas Eastern or Transwestern? 2 3 A . No , I was not. 2 4 Q . I see . So if I wanted to find out 2 5 if a field repre sentative or if Transwestern GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 290 WATER PCB-SD0000034615 1 or Texas Eastern had been told of these 2 measures that Monsanto thought were so 3 necessary, I'd have to go and talk to those 4 sales representatives and field managers. Is 5 that right? 6 A. Yes, or you could, the field sales 7 manager in Brussels could have done this, 8 Norman Johnson could have given that 9 information. 1 0 Q . So I'd have to talk to the people 11 who were actually in the field to find out - 1 2 A . Absolutely, ye s . 1 3 Q . -- whether.it was c arried out? 14 A. Yes. ' 1 5 Q . Now, yesterday , and somewhat this 1 6 morning, we talked about the growing concern 1 7 and identification of polychlorinated 1 8 biphenyls in the environment, and you 1 9 testified yesterday that what was being found 2 0 in the environment or starting with Jensen's 2 1 work in '66 and '67 were the higher 2 2 chlorinated biphenyls. 2 3 A. In the early stages of the work, 2 4 yes. 2 5 Q. Up to about '69, 1970? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 291 WATER PCB-SD0000034616 1 A . Yes, I think that's correct. 2 Q. And would you agree with me if I 3 characterized those higher chlorinated 4 biphenyls that were being identified through 5 the analytical means as the pentach1orinated 6 biphenyls and higher? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q. And in fact, would you agree with 9 me that those were thought to resemble, most 1 0 closely resemble the Aroclors1254 and 1260? 1 1 A. I'm not quite certain I would 1 2 agree with you there. It's getting into a 1 3 fairly technical area, to describe it this 1 4 way. 1 5 Q. So I would have to talk to 1 6 somebody from Monsanto who was involved in 1 7 the analytical work, say, Dr. Keller or Dr. 1 8 Tucker? 1 9 A. Certainly, if you wanted to get an 2 0 accurate detailed scientific explanation and 2 1 understanding of it, yes. 2 2 Q. But you would agree that what was 2 3 being found were the higher chlorinated 2 4 biphenyls? 2 5 A. Yes, I would. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 292 WATER PCB-SD0000034617 1 Q. And yesterday, you told me, if I 2 can refresh your recollection, that each one 3 of the Aroclor families contains the full 4 range of biphenyls. 5 A . Not the full range, a range of -- 6 Q A range? 7 A . - - of biphenyl isomer , yes. 8 Q And you told me yeste rday that you 9 knew from your earliest contact with Aroclors 1 0 in the Fifties that Aroclor 1242 would 1 1 contain a certain percentage of the higher 1 2 chlorinated biphenyls; is that c o r r e c t ? 1 3 A . Yes , I thirik it would have done 1 4 i t . I think I made the point in the Fifties 1 5 that I was never directly responsible for 1 6 Aroclor marketing. It was a general 1 7 knowledge of all the products that were in 1 8 the company range. 1 9 Q. That none of the Aroclors are 2 0 really exactly pure but they contain a range 2 1 of the biphenyls? 2 2 A. Correct. 2 3 Q. And in fact, that's inherent in 2 4 the manufacturing process? 2 5 A. Yes. I would expect that. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 293 WATER PCB-SD0000034618 1 Q Now, as early as November 1969, at 2 the Corporate Management Committee meeting, 3 there was concern expressed about Aroclor 4 1242. Is that right? ' 5 A. Yes, adoubt, shall we say, yes. 6 Q. Was that in part because there was 7 knowledge that Aroclor 1242 contained some of 8 the higher chlorinated biphenyls? 9 A. Yes, I think that was true. 1 0 Q. And was part of the reason that by 1 1 the Corporate Management Committee meeting 1 2 that we talked about in April 1970 that there 1 3 had been a determination to withdraw Aroclor 1 4 1242 from the NCR use was that there was 1 5 concern that the 1242 contained the higher 1 6 chlorinated biphenyls? 17 A. Yes, I think that would be partly 1 8 the reason. Also, I think it was also the 1 9 reason was the, the large amounts of any 2 0 Aroclor which were going to be distributed 2 1 into the environment. 2 2 Q. But if the knowledge was that the 2 3 Aroclor 1242 was completely biodegradable and 2 4 would not cause any problem, just supposing 2 5 at that point -- GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 294 WATER PCB-SD0000034619 1 A . Excuse me, I don't think I can 2 accept the word "completely biodegradable" 3 because I don't absolutely understand what it 4 means in this context. 5 Q Okay, let me rephrase it. If 6 there was no concern about Aroclor 1242 -- 7 A. Mm-hmm. (Nods head in affirmative 8 manner). 9 Q -- in terms of persistence, then 10 there would have been no reason to withdraw 11 Aroclor 1242 from the NCR, use, would there 1 2 havebeen? - 1 3 A . I think that's probably true. 1 4 Q And similarly, if there had been 1 5 no reason by mid 1970 to think that -- if 1 6 there had been no reason to think there was 17 any problem with 1242 by mid 1970, there 1 8 wouldn't have been any concern with the 1 9 development of replacement products for 2 0 hydraulic fluids, either, would there have 2 1 been? 2 2 A . No, I don't think so, but these 2 3 are very black-and-white statements, and I'm 2 4 not sure I'd agree a hundred percent with 2 5 them . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 295 WATER PCB-SD0000034620 1 Q. Would you agree with the basic 2 statement, though? 3 A. I would in general, yes. 4 Q. Now, in terms of the Pydraul 5 reformulation, was Dr. Richard an important 6 figure in the Pydraul reformulation? 7 A . Certain ly . 8 Q He was the head of research for 9 Functional Fluids ; is that right? 1 0 A . Yes, he was. 1 1 Q And Mr. Bergen, likewise, was an 1 2 important figure in- the Pydraul 1 3 reformulations as the.head of that Business 1 4 Group; is that right? 1 5 A . Yes. 1 6 Q. Are youfamiliarwith a man by the 1 7 name of Jim Savage? 1 8 A . Yes. 1 9 Q. Do you think thathe had 2 0 familiarity with the Product Group of 2 1 Functional Fluids? 2 2 A . Yes, a very close familiarity. 2 3 Q And why i s that? 2 4 A . What d o you mean by that? 2 5 Q Why did h e have -- what was his GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 296 WATER PCB-SD0000034621 1 position that led to 2 A. He was involved, very much so, in 3 that area. 4 Q. As -- in manufacturing? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. So that Dr. Richard, and Mr. 7 Savage, and Mr. Bergen, and the group that 8 worked under him would all, you would rely on 9 what they told you about the Pydraul family 1 0 in reformulation? If they came to you and 11 made a presentation, you would expect that 1 2 presentation to be true; is that correct? 1 3 A. Yes, I would expect it to be. I 14 wouldn't use the word "true," but I would 1 5 certainly ask questions. I would try to 1 6 verify in my own mind, and if there were 1 7 there were holes in it, I might find them. 1 8 Q B ut these were people who, as far 1 9 as you were concerned, were most intimately 20 f ami 1 i ar -2 1 A . Yes. 2 2 Q . --with the issues? 2 3 A . Yes. 2 4 Q. With renormu 1 ation with Pydrauls, 2 5 et cetera? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 297 WATER PCB-SD0000034622 1 2 Q. I'd like to turn to Exhibit 1072, 3 and you testified earlier that this exhibit 4 was or this document was prepared by Howard 5 Bergen's Business Group, which was Functional 6 Fluids -- I think by that point, it was 7 probably functional products, had changed? 8 A. No, it's always been Functional 9 Products. 1 0 Q. Functional Fluids? 1 1 A. Fluids were part of the Functional 12 Products Group. 1 3 Q. I see. This was prepared as part 1 4 of the background for your board of directors 1 5 presentation? 1 6 A. Yes,but I think I made a point, I 1 7 cannot be a hundred percent sure on these 1 8 documents, but from what is in it, I'm 1 9 pretty -- I'm convinced that it was part of 2 0 this buildup to the board presentation to 2 1 really examine the impact of taking more 2 2 drastic action, yes. 2 3 Q. And did you rely on this document 2 4 in part for your board presentation? 2 5 A. I certainly did, and I also asked GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 29 8 WATER PCB-SD0000034623 1 a number of questions, I'm sure 2 Q . I'd like you to turn t o the page 3 that ' s stamped TRAN 002490, and i t goes over 4 to the next page, which 'is 2 4 9 1 - - 5 A . Yes. 6 Q . -- and read for the jury the two 7 kinds of product groups that are referred to, 8 the two broad product groups that are 9 referred to in this section. 1 0 A. Plasticizers and hydraulic fluids. 11 Q. And could you also read for the 1 2 jury the example that is given under these, 1 3 these product groups,, the name of the company 1 4 that's given, on the same page at 2491? 1 5 A. The bottom of the page, 1 6 "Examples," is that what youare referring 17 to? 1 8 Q Yes. 1 9 A. "Texas Eastern Gas Transmission 2 0 Company uses Turbinol 153 in 18 gas turbines 2 1 supplying major part of East Coast natural 22 gas needs. Turbines were run in on Turbinol 2 3 153 and have used product for 14 years. 2 4 Immediate withdrawal of product would be 2 5 disastrous and could expose Monsanto to a GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 299 WATER PCB-SD0000034624 1 significant lawsuit. 2 "Major steel companies -- 3 Q That's -- is there any other name 4 mentioned in this document of any particular 5 customer i n terms of the product groups that 6 were menti o n e d ? I'm just talking about the 7 last page, where it refers to plasticizers 8 and hydrau lie fluids. 9 A. Not on the last page, no. 1 0 Q. Now, with reference to the 1 1 six-point program that we talked about that 1 2 was presented to the- Corporate Management 1 3 Committee starting in.mid 1970, was that to 1 4 include, the six-point program was to 1 5 include, as far as you know, all of the 1 6 PCB-containing products? . Was it a 1 7 comprehensive plan on how to deal with it? 1 8 A . Yes, it was meant to be a 1 9 c o mp r e h e n s i v e plan. 2 0 Q So in other words, each one o f the 2 1 PCB produc ts would fit into, in a way o f 2 2 speaking, one of the s ix bullet points ? By 2 3 bullet poi nts, I mean one, two, three, four, 2 4 five, six? 2 5 A. Yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 300 WATER PCB-SD0000034625 1 Q. I'd like to turn to Exhibit 1055, 2 please, which is the minutes of meeting of 3 9/14/70. 4 A . File 039452; is that correct? 5 Q. No, it's 0 37752. Is that the one 6 that you have? It's this one. 7 A. Oh, that's the one where we had 8 the two -- 9 Q . Yeah. They're the same; I just 1 0 happen to have this one right in front of me. 1 1 That's right, that's it. 1 2 A . Good. 1 3 Q. All right.' Now, would you agree 1 4 with me that bullet point 1 -- by "bullet 1 5 point," I just mean for the plan, and it 1 6 starts on the first page, where it says, 1 7 "Terminate sales of all non-biodegradable 1 8 chlorinated biphenyls to noncontro11ab1e end 1 9 uses," applies to plasticizer and including 2 0 carbonless carbon paper applications? 21 A . Yes . 2 2 Q. Does it apply to any other 2 3 applications? 2 4 A. It would certainly apply, I think, 2 5 to some of the hydraulic applications, yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 301 I WATER PCB-SD0000034626 1 Q. Which hydraulicapplications would 2 it apply to? 3 A. I can't possibly list them for 4 you. I don't have the information in front 5 of me and it's 22 years ago. I couldn't 6 remember all the customers' names. 7 Q. Okay, so this would be the group 8 that you felt it was mostimportant to 9 terminate right away? 1 0 A. Yes . 1 1 Q. Because it was a completely open 12 system? . ' 13 A. Yes. 1 4 Q. Okay, number 2 specifically refers 1 5 to NCR . 1 6 A. Yes. 1 7 Q. So that would only apply to that 1 8 application? 1 9 A. Yes. 2 0 Q. Number 3 specifically applies to 2 1 heat transfer applications. 2 2 A. (Nods head in affirmative manner) . 2 3 Q. And there was a plan for heat 2 4 transfer applications; is that right? . 2 5 A . Yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 302 WATER PCB-SD0000034627 1 Q. All right, and number 4 applies to 2 hydraulic applications and specifically 3 refers to hydraulic applications; is that 4 right? 5 A . Yes. 6 Q. It says, "Replace 7 non-b i odegradab1e chlorinated biphenyls in 8 hydraulic applications." 9 A . Right. 1 0 Q Number 5 specif ically refers t o 1 1 capacitor and trans former applications; i s 1 2 that correct? 13 A . Yes. . 1 4 Q. And I believe there was a number 6 1 5 in theprogram but it's not inthis document. 1 6 A. There was. We'll have to go back 1 7 to the presentation -- 1 8 MR. PREUSS:I think you'll find 1 9 that the five-year combines 5 and 6. They 2 0 had separate ones for capacitor and 2 1 transformer. 2 2 MS. WELCH: Oh, I see. So those 2 3 capacitors were slightly different. We were 2 4 looking for a 1ower-ch1orinated product. 25 MR. PREUSS: In the earlier one, I GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 303 WATER PCB-SD0000034628 1 think, and some of the subsequents 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct. 3 MR. PREUSS: 5 was capacitor, and 4 6 was transformers or vice versa -- 5 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 6 MR. PREUSS: -- and they were 7 combined in this. 8 BY MS. WELCH: 9 Q. So in summary, 1 is the 1 0 plasticizers and some hydraulics, 2 is the 1 1 NCR paper, 3 is the heat transfer, 4 are 1 2 whatever remaining hydraulic applications are 1-3 not covered by 1, which one is the immediate 1 4 phase out and 5 combines 5 and 6, which is 1 5 transformers and capacitors. 1 6 Mr. Mason, where did Turbinol 153 1 7 fit into this plan? 1 8 A. Turbinol 153 would fit in as a 1 9 controllable end use application, a special 2 0 product . 2 1 Q . And which one of t h e s e one, two, 2 2 three, four, five points would i t fit into? 2 3 Because I don't see a point t h a t says 2 4 "controllable end use." 2 5 A. No, you don't. I don't think it GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 304 WATER PCB-SD0000034629 1 would fit 100 percent into all of these. 2 Q . And you testified earlier that 3 these points were to cover the written points 4 were to cover each one of the PCB containing 5 products? 6 A. They were meant to do it, yes. 7 Q. And so where does Turbinol 153 fit 8 into each one of these five points? 9 A. Well, all I can say, it was a 1 0 special application. It would fit into, -- 1 1 it would not be terminated because it was, as 1 2 far as we were concerned, a controlled end 1 3 use, a special product. 1 4 Q. So in other words, that -- it was 1 5 not part of these six points, five or six 1 6 points? 1 7 A. If, if you -- no, I could not -- I 1 8 could fit it -- could not fit it into one of 1 9 those, no, exceptif you look at point number 2 0 1, which states that "All non-biodegradable 2 1 chlorinated biphenyls to noncontro11 ab1e end 2 2 uses will be terminated." 2 3 Q. You told me before that that 2 4 referred to plasticizers use, plasticizers 2 5 and some hydraulic fluids. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 305 WATER PCB-SD0000034630 1 A . Hydraulic fluids, yes. 2 Q. In other words, the most open of 3 systems . 4 A. Yes . 5 Q. So this applies to,the plan for 6 those particularly open, very open systems? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q- So - 9 A. All I -- excuse me. 1 0 Q. Go ahead. 1 1 A. All I can say is, if you -- many 1 2 of the documents which have been raised have 1 3 shown this as a separate specialty product 1 4 for Eastern gas terminals. A closed system 1 5 product, several of the exhibits have stated 1 6 this. One or two have indicated it under the 17 section of Pydrauls, I agree. So we are 1 8 arguing, really, about terminology and the 1 9 way you include this. 2 0 Q. Well, I think my question goes 2 1 more to something more fundamental, not only 2 2 terminology, but whether Turbinol 153 was 2 3 part of the Pydraul reformulation plan, and I 2 4 would like you to look at, once again, 2 5 Exhibit 1056. I believe it was 1056. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 306 WATER PCB-SD0000034631 1 A . Which is 1056? 2 MS. WELCH: It's dated October 6, 3 1970 -- I can't -- let me show it to you. 4 ( Pause) 5 BY MS. WELCH: 6 Q. Success . Now, before we talk 7 about the Pydraul reformulation plan, earlier 8 you testified that Mr. Papageorge was 9 appointed the proj ect manager for the PCB 1 0 problem. Is that correct? 1 1 A. Correct 1 2 Q . And you testified that he was a 1 3 very competent gen tleman who did an excellent 1 4 job. 1 5 A. Yes . 1 6 Q. And in fact prettyrapidly 1 7 familiarized himselves -- himself with all 1 8 the various issues that had to do with PCBs, 1 9 including the reformulation of products? 2 0 A. I assume so, yes. 2 1 Q. And by October 6, 1970, he had 2 2 been on the job for approximately nine to ten 23 months; is that correct? 24 A. Yes, correct. 2 5 Q. All right, so you wouldexpect GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 307 WATER PCB-SD0000034632 1 that he would be familiar with the various 2 reformulations in the product groups? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. All right, please turn to page 5, 5 which has the identifying stamp of 4020, and 6 please read for the jury the sentenceunder 7 "Industrial Hydraulics." The first sentence. 8 A. "The removal of Aroclor 1242 from 9 all Pydrauls will require reformulation of A 1 0 200, 281, 540, 312, 230, 135, 150, MCS 153 1 1 and MCS 974." 12 Q. Now, MCS' 153, you testified 1 3 yesterday, was another name for Turbinol 153? 14 A. It was a previous name for 1 5 Turbinol 153. 1 6 Q. Putting that document aside, Mr. 1 7 Mason, by 1970, had you had contact with 1 8 various government agencies with respect to 19 theirconcern of the finding of PCBs in the 2 0 environment? 2 1 A . Yes. 2 2 Q Did that include, are you aware of 2 3 a c o n t a c t with a w a ter quality agency in the 2 4 bay area which was concerned about the 2 5 pr e s e n c e of PCBs in the San Francisco Bay GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 308 WATER PCB-SD0000034633 1 A. I never met with them myself, no. 2 Q. Were you aware that they had 3 corresponded with them people at Monsanto? 4 A . Yes. ' 5 Q. And that was by, at least, mid 6 1970? 7 A. I would think so. I cannot be 8 sure. 9 Q. Were you aware of contacts with 1 0 the Ohio Department of Health over concerns 1 1 of the finding of PCBs in milk? 1 2 A. Yes, I think I remember that. 1 3 Q. Were you also aware of contacts 1 4 between Monsanto and the Georgia Department 1 5 of Agriculture with respect to the findings 1 6 of PCB in milk by mid 1970? 17 A. I think so, yes. 1 8 Q. Were you aware of any other 1 9 contacts with governmental agencies that had 2 0 written to Monsanto expressing concern over 2 1 the finding of PCBs in environmental samples? 2 2 A. I can't think of any at this point 2 3 in time. 2 4 Q But you were aware that generally, 2 5 had been correspondence and contacts GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 309 WATER PCB-SD0000034634 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 , 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 with various governmental agencies? A . Certainly, yes. Q And environmental authorities, Now, EP A didn't exist then, did it? A . No, it didn't. I think that's correct. Q. When -- do you know when EPA was formed? A. I think it was after I left the United States, but I'm -- I thought, what, it was '72, '73, but I'm sure it was after I left the United States... Q. Are you familiar with the bill that ultimately became TOSCA? A. Well, I'm broadly familiar, but again, I wasn't here and I wasn't involved in the details. Q . Are you familiar with the fact that when TOSCA was actually implemented in 1977, polychlorinated biphenyls were the only chemical that was singled out by name? A. Yes, I think that's true. Q. Finally, I'd like to turn to Exhibit 1064, which is the letter that was introduced this morning to Mr. Kevin Harris. t GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 3 10 WATER PCB-SD0000034635 1 A 10 16? 2 Q. Yes. It's a May 28th, 1970, 3 letter that you wrote to Mr. Kevin Harris. 4 A . Yes . 5 Q. And this morning, you testified 6 that the purpose of this letter was -- and 7 correct me if I'm wrong -- that you have 8 testified that the purpose of this letter was 9 to, in part, demonstrate to Mr. Harris, who I 1 0 assume was a student at Cornell University, 1 1 that Monsanto was concerned about the 1 2 problems of PCB in the environment. Is that 1 3 correct? . 1 4 A . Yes. 1 5 Q. Okay, can you please read for the 1 6 jury the last sentence of the second full 1 7 paragraph? 1 8 A. "Any contamination of the 1 9 environment from this source" -- well, that's 2 0 out of context. It doesn't say from what 2 1 source. -- "-- can be described as 2 2 infinitesimal and is certainly not a major 2 3 factor in causing the problems you describe." 2 4 MS. WELCH: I have no further 2 5 questions. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 3 11 WATER PCB-SD0000034636 1 MR PREUS S : I have nothing at 2 this time. Thank you, Mr. Mason. 3 MS . WELCH: Thank you, Mr. Mason. 4 THE WITNES S : Thank you 5 MS . WELCH: And have a good trip 6 back to Rhode Island. 7 THE WITNESS: Thank you 8 (Whereupon, at 11: 10 a.m . , 9 the deposition was 1 0 concluded.) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 `2 2 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISS OUR I 3 12 WATER PCB-SD0000034637 1 COMES NOW THE WITNESS, JOHN MASON, 2 and having read the foregoing transcript of 3 the deposition taken on the 21st and 22nd day 4 of October, 1992, acknowledges by signature 5 hereto that it is a true and accurate 6 transcript of the testimony given on the date 7 hereinabove mentioned. 8 9 10 1 1 JOHN MASON 12 13 1 4 Subscribed and sworn to before me 1 5 thisday of , 1 9 9 2. 16 1 7 My Commission expires: 18 19 20 21 2 2 Notary Public 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 313 WATER PCB-SD0000034638 1 STATE OF MISSOURI ) 2 SS : ) 3 CITY OF ST. LOUIS ) 4 I J. Bryan Jordan, notary publi 5 in and for the State of Missouri, duly 6 commissioned, qualified and authorized to 7 administer oaths and to certify deposition s , 8 do hereby certify that pursuant to agreeme n t 9 in the civil cause now pending and 1 0 undetermined in the Superior Court of the 1 1 State of California, to be used in the tri a 1 1 2 of said cause in s aid court, I was attende d 1 3 at the offices of Bryan Cave, in the City o f 1 4 St. Louis, State of Missouri, by the 1 5 aforesaid witness and by the aforesaid 1 6 attorneys, on the 21st and 22nd days of 1 7 October, 1992. 1 8 The said witness, being of sound 1 9 mind and being by me first carefully examined 2 0 and duly cautioned and sworn to testify the 2 1 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 2 2 truth in the case aforesaid, thereupon 2 3 testified as is shown in the foregoing 2 4 transcript, said testimony being by me 2 5 reported in shorthand and caused to be GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 3 14 WATER PCB-SD0000034639 1 transcribed into typewriting, and that the 2 foregoing pages correctly set forth the 3 testimony of the aforementioned witness, 4 together with the questions propounded by 5 counsel and remarks and objections thereto, 6 and is in all respects a full, true, correct 7 and complete transcript of the questions 8 propounded to and the answers given by said 9 witness; that signature of the deponent was 1 0 not waived by agreement of counsel. 1 1 I further certify that I am not of 1 2 counsel or attorneyfor either of the parties 1 3 to said suit, not related to nor interested 1 4 in any of the parties or their attorneys. 1 5 Witness my hand and notarial seal 1 6 at St. Louis, Missouri, this _5%_ day of 1 7 1 99 2. 1 8 My commission expires July 20, 1 9 1 9 94. 20 21 2 2 J. Bryan Jordan 2 3 Notary Public in and for the 2 4 State of Missouri 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 3 15 WATER PCB-SD00000346' 1 COMES NOW THE WITNESS, JOHN MASON, 2 and having read the foregoing transcript of 3 the deposition taken on the 21st and 22nd day 4 of October, 1992, acknowledges by signature 5 hereto that it is a true and accurate 6 transcript of the testimony given on the date 7 hereinabove mentioned. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Subscribed and sworn to before me 1 5 this day of ____ r 1 9 9 2 . 16 17 My Commission expires: ___ 18 19 20 D. W. AGRAU-, 21 t, BRIDGE 3T.. LEATHERHEAD,. SURREY. 2 2 SOLICITOR. COMMISSIONER FOR OATHS Notary Publici 4L.NO NOTARY PUBLIC. 23 24 2 5 ORIGINAL GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI ' 313 WATER PCB-SD0000034641 DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET In Res Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be made: Page Line ^ Should read: . Reason assigned for change: '(^ <f\ \.$ c_Q Page ot) Line l Should read: ---- f^OC-l/C - Reason assigned for change Page 3^ Line 5-0 Should read: -- L Reason assigned for change's,v cX-w^c^o/ .jJLsi. C_ V'-a-**- Page Line CL\ Should read: ._ . Reason assignee ror cnange: Ao-^r^oV'0/' aA- ^ ^ -n (_ 'iiut.-V c^o-v-sxi-A) .Cl-- * Page Line ^U3i Should read: <*- Reason assigned for change: ^ c*o>JLXjlA / . 3 ^ Page C\ b Line U|- Should read: Reason assigned for change: Pag.e &[\d Line Should read: t^_s>-r- Reason assigned for chainge: W-wO. j Page I0(o Line Should read: Reason assigned for change: " - - (Rj \c jCo C3^ -- Sew* Page 1 10 Line Should read: Reason assianed for a- err- /Qt ^ -- <5-Ca^2_A WATER PCB-SD0000034642 DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET In Res Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be made: Page l 0?O Line ((c&Should read: VWa, <4- Reason assigned for change: Q \\ t la3 Page | 4 L^. 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"'C^Aa. 1 3 L'--4- t5 . <d. U--<2 .1'(d 4 . -a {-^-t 4 ou 4~ - iL'V--4l 14- d ^-S. a.. u. - Q- ^ WATER PCB-SD0000034644