Document 1038GJmykBXYYwYVN0NydmGGX

PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT CT-136 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF ALAMEDA/SOLANO IN RE RELATED ASBESTOS CASES : NO: 603286-1 (ALAMEDA) CONSOLIDATED FOR DISCOVERY : NO: 88602 (SOLANO) (LAW OFFICES OF JACK K. CLAPPER): NO: 804416 (S.F.) January 13, 1967 The Oral Deposition of ROBERT HARTMAN was taken in the above captioned matter and on the above date, commencing at or about 2:20 P.M., in the offices of Certain-teed, Valley Forge, Pennsylvania, before Carol L. Skipper, Court Reporter and Notary Public for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. APPEARANCES: JACK K. CLAPPER, A Professional Corporation BY: JOE VISSE, ESQUIRE. 100 SHORELINE HIGHWAY, BUILDING B, SUITE 300 MILL VALLEY, CA. 94941 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS, TURNER AND NEWALL AND OTHERS BROBECK, PHLBGER & HARRISON BY: WILLIAM LEVIN, ESQUIRE 1 MARKET PLAZA-31st FLOOR SAN FRANCISCO, CA. 94105 FOR THE DEFENDANTS RICHARDS O'NEIL AND ALLEGAERT BY: CLINTON B. FISHER, ESQUIRE 660 MADISON AVENUE NEW YORK, N.Y. 10021 FOR THE DEFENDANT, TURNER AND NEWALL ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St., Phila.,Pa./(215) 56 4-5380 Hartman 2 1 (It has been agreed by and between counsel that 2 sealing, filing, and certification of the within 3 deposition are hereby waived. All objections, 4 except as to the form of the question are 5 reserved until the time of trial.) 6 7 ROBERT S. HARTMAN, having been first duly sworn, 8 was examined and testified as follows: 9 10 MR. VISSE: Mr. Hartman, my name is Joe 11 Visse, and I represent a number of plaintiffs in 12 asbestos related cases, and this deposition of 13 yours today is being noticed in consolidated 14 cases that are consolidated for discovery in 15 three jurisdictions in California. This was by 16 agreement with defense counsel. I would like to 17 repeat a statement that we made at the outset of 18 the other deposition, and Mr. Levin, will have a 19 follow up statement. It's simply this, that the 20 defendants have agreed to waive certain 21 procedural requirements, so that these 22 depositions could be conducted in an expeditious 23 way, and as part of the negotiations for that, we 24 had requested that other plaintiff's counsel be 25 permitted to notice in on this deposition. That ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St., Phila.,Pa./( 215) 564-5380 Hartman 3 1 was an unacceptable condition to defense counsel, 2 and for that reason I feel obligated to make 3 mention of the fact that the conduct of this 4 deposition should in no way preclude the 5 perrogative of other plaintiff's counsels from 6 pursuing discovery which they consider necessary 7 in their cases. 8 I would also indicate that the deposition 9 today is being taken under the California Code of 10 Civil Procedure and under the California Rules of 11 Evidence, and that having been said, I feel Bill 12 might want to make a statement as well. 13 MR. LEVIN: Yes, I just want to say that 14 we, being the Asbestos Claim Facility, Defendants 15 agreed to make Mr. Hartman and Mr. Striegel 16 available without subpoena and without necessity 17 of a motion and out of state commission, and 18 in return for waiving those procedural 19. requirements Mr. Visse agreed to dismiss punitive 20 damages against all of my clients in the 21 Henderson case and to provide Mr. Henderson an 22 IME, and the situation involving other 23 plaintiff's attorneys was discussed, and we 24 decided that since none of the other attorneys 25 were involved in the Henderson case, that they ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 4 1 ought to do whatever they want to do about 2 depositions, but that it would just be 3 impracticable and unwielding to have more than 4 one attorney here to ask questions and to make 5 arrangements with more than one attorney 6 considering we were at trial, and I have 7 confidence that Mr. Visse will cover all of the 8 areas that anybody else would ever possibly want 9 to cover. 10 MR. VISSE: Mr. Hartman, your deposition 11 has been taken before on a number of occasions, 12 is that correct? 13 THE WITNESS: Several, yes. 14 MR. VISSE: And recently in 1984 in 15 October your deposition was taken at this same 16 place, is that right? 17 THE WITNESS: I believe that is correct. 18 MR. VISSE: And the course of today's 19 deposition is likely to cover many of those same 20 items, and I apologize for the necessity of 21 covering some of that same ground, but it is 22 necessitated by the fact that one of the 23 defendants in our current actions was not present 24 at that deposition, and so could not assert their 25 rights to object to forms of questions and the ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 1 2 i 3; 4 5j 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 i 20 :i 21 22 23 24 25 Hartman like,.and this deposition is then necessary to provide that opportunity for them. I'll make an effort to be as quick as I can, however, in covering the material that has already been covered in previous depositions. 5 BY MR. VISSE: Q. Are you currently employed by Certain-teed? A. No, I'm not. Q. When did you retire, sir? A. I did not retire. I came on termination with the company on July 13th. Q. July 13th of? A. 1986 . Q. Are you being represented by any counsel here today ? A. I don't know how to answer that. I would say, yes. MR. LEVIN: Yes, we are. Bill Levin for the Asbestos Claim Facility and Clint Fisher are here in our capacity as counsel for some of the defendants, and-- MR. FISHER: I'm not representing Mr. Hartman. MR. LEVIN: I'm here on behalf of the ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phil a.,Pa./(215}564-5380 Hartman 6 1 Asbestos Claims Facility, and to the extent that 2 Mr. Hartman is a former Certain-teed employee I'm 3 representing him for the purposes of this 4 deposition, although he has not retained me to 5 represent him for any other reason. 6 MR. VISSE: I suppose then I should take 7 the position that the communications between you 8 and any counsel here today are not, in fact, 9 covered by a privilege, an attorney/client 10 privelege, and it should not be claimed. 11 MR. LEVIN: Wait a minute. I think you 12 should take the exact opposite position, which is 13 that the attorney/client privilege is being 14 claimed as it was this morning for the same 15 reasons. 16 MR. VISSE: Okay, I just wanted that on the 17 record. 18 MR. LEVIN: Yes, it is definitely being 19 asserted. 20 MR. VISSE: Let me just briefly cover the 21 rules for depositions, although you are certainly 22 familiar with them, but I feel obligated to state 23 them at the outset. You do realize, of course, 24 you are under oath, and that a transcript of this 25 deposition will be prepared for your review and ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St., Phil a.,Pa./( 215)564-53 80 Hartman 7 1 your opportunity to make any corrections when you 2 see that to be appropriate. In the event that 3 there are corrections, of course, comment can be 4 made upon any contradiction between your 5 corrections and any of your prior testimony. 6 It is important that you do understand 7 questions that I ask, and if you don't, please 8 ask for clarification. If the most appropriate 9 answer is no, or I don't know, please state that. 10 It is also important that you wait until I 11 complete the question in order to give counsel a 12 time, an opportunity to interpose any objections 13 as to the forms of ray questions, and you may, 14 unless someone should instruct you otherwise, 15 answer the question after those objections have 16 been stated. Is that all fairly clear to you? 17 THE WITNESS: It is clear. 18 MR. VISSE: Having been through this 19 bef ore ? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 MR. VISSE: Thank you. 22 23 BY MR. VISSE: 24 Q. Could I ask your date of birth, please? 25 A. January 5, 1924. ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 8 1 Q. And currently what is your residence? 2 A. 33 8 Rosedale Drive, Pottstown, Pennsylvania. 3 Q. Is there a zip code for that? 4 A. 19464. 5 Q. Might I ask your home phone number? 6 A. Area code (215) 323-2947. 7 Q. Thank you. Are you currently involved in any 8 other business? I'm sorry, you want to make a 9 clarification? 10 A. Yes, that is 47 , 2947. 11 Q. Thank you. Are you currently involved in any 12 other business? 13 A. Part time. 14 Q. Would you mind telling me what that is? 15 A. I'm involved in old toy trains as a consultant. 16 Q. Before the deposition today, have you reviewed 17 any records of any kind? 18 A. I did. 19 Q. And could you tell me what those records were? 20 A. They're a record of the previous deposition, and 21 a review of the supporting data that was submitted with 22 that deposition. 23 Q. Those would be the exhibits to that deposition, 24 is that right? 25 A. That is correct. ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 9 1 MR. LEVIN: Yes, that is right. 2 3 BY MR. VISSE: 4 Q. Have you reviewed any additional material other 5 than what you have described? 6 A. No. 7 Q. And have you brought with you any documents other 8 than those that you have already mentioned? 9 A. I have other information, yes. 10 Q. Will I have the opportunity to review that 11 inf ormation? 12 MR. LEVIN: It really depends on what it 13 is. 14 MR. VISSE: I would like to make some kind 15 of arrangement, it is probably going to be 16 necessary for a break, at the time of the break 17 for Bill to have an opportunity to look through 18 that and we can see what we can do about it. 19 MR. LEVIN: Yes, it was my understanding 20 that all he was required to bring was what he 21 came with to the last deposition. Anything else 22 he brought is kind of gratuitous, and I don't 23 know what it is, or whether you are entitled to 24 it or what. 25 MR. VISSE: Fine, rather than take time on ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 10 1 the record, I'll just discuss it with you at the 2 break. 3 MR. LEVIN: Fine. 4 5 BY MR. VISSE: 6 Q. Have you prepared any variations on the exhibits 7 that were attached to your previous deposition? 8 A. Yes, the previous recap sheet had a total through 9 the year at Santa Clara up to 1979, and the additional 10 years was added in this latest recap. 11 Q. And I believe in referring to that sheet, you're 12 referring to Plaintiff's Exhibit-2 to your deposition of 13 October of '84? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. In making additions to that exhibit, you simply 16 added an additional year, is that correct, or a couple 17 of additional years? 18 MR. LEVIN: More things than that happened. 19 20 BY MR. VISSE: 21 Q. Cbuld you just describe all of the modifications 22 that were made to the exhibit? 23 A. The original exhibit showed at Santa Clara from 24 years 1963 through 1979. The years '80, '81, and '82 25 were added as well as the partial year of 1962, the ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phil a.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 11 1 first year that Certain-teed became responsible, which 2 then changed the totals, of course, for the new time 3 period. 4 Q. And those are only changes for the Santa Clara , 5 plant, isthat correct? 6 A. That is correct. 7 Q. Were there any changes made for the Riverside i 8 plant, which I believe was also included as a tabulation iI 9 on the Exhibit-2 to your previous deposition. j 10 MR. LEVIN: Remember wecopied that out. j 11 MR. VISSE: That part had been deleted? 12 MR. LEVIN: Yes. 13 THE WITNESS: I have to look, I don't know 14 if I have that. 15 MR. LEVIN: Yes, that is what happened. Do 16 you have your old Plaintiff's 2? 17 MR. VISSE: Yes, I do. 18 MR. LEVIN: Everything below that on the 19 old one, they were accumulative totals on the 20 bottom of the both Santa Clara and Riverside 21 plant, and now what has occurred is we've added 22 the years indicated, and-- 23 MR. VISSE: You have totally omitted the 24 Riverside plant? 25 MR. LEVIN: Yes, totally omitted the ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 12 1 Riverside, as well as the handwriting at the 2 bottom of the Riverside plant. Did you change 3 the totals? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, it had to be changed. 5 MR. LEVIN: Yes, and the totals were 6 changed to reflect the added years. 7 MR. VISSE: Okay. We'll be discussing 8 these exhibits a little bit later. I would like 9 to start quickly by just reviewing your 10 deposition and perhaps conduct it in a really 11 speedy fashion, and take kind of a leading 12 posture, if that is acceptable. 13 MR. LEVIN: You have to ask the questions 14 before I can tell you. 15 MR. VISSE: Fine. 16 17 BY MR. VISSE: 18 Q. It is accurate, isn't it, sir, that you have a BA 19 in Chemistry from Penn State in 1944? 20 A. That was a BS in Chemistry. 21 Q. Thanks for the clarification. And a Masters 22 Degree in Math from the University of Pennsylvania in 23 1948? 24 A. That is correct. 25 Q. Just reviewing your employment, following your ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 13 1 Masters, you became employed as a chemist for Keasbey 2 and Mattison in 1948? 3 A. That is correct. 4 Q. And at that time, generally, what sorts of 5 products was Keasbey and Mattison involved in 6 manufacturing? 7 A. They were manufacturing quite a variety of 8 asbestos containing products. 9 Q. Could you describe the general categories of 10 products that they were manufacturing? 11 MR. LEVIN: No foundation, calls for 12 speculation. 13 THE WITNESS: They manufactured asbestos 14 cement sheets and pipe, textiles, paper, sheet 15 packing, and insullation. 16 17 BY MR. VISSE: 18 Q. You continued as a chemist with Keasbey and 19 Mattison up to what year? 20 A. Late 1501s, I believe 1958, '57 or '58. I just 21 don't remember the exact year. 22 Q. During this time as a chemist for Keasbey and 23 Mattison, you were, I take it, involved in a number of 24 research projects on products, is that correct? 25 A. That is correct. ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 14 1 Q. Could you tell me what those products were that 2 you were involved in research on during that time 3 period? 4 A. Several come to mind. One was a braided tubing 5 product with special properties required by Bell 6 Telephone, and another was enhancing the weather 7 resistance of asbestos cement siding. Oh, another one 8 was more optimum design of asbestos cement pipe, 9 research was conducted in more proper control on sheet 10 packing material. 11 Q. Did you do any research on pipe insullation 12 during that period? 13 A. On AC pipe? 14 Q. No, I'm talking about high temperature pipe 15 insullation, either 85 mag insullation or some other 16 type? 17 A. Yes, some work was done on that some calcium 18 silicate higher temperature, which required a different 19 reinforcing structure, fibre structure, yes. 20 Q. Of those projects that you have mentioned, if I 21 could just ask you for a moment about the AC pipe design 22 work? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Not being a scientist, could you describe for me 25 in simple layman's terms what your research involved on ALL POINTS REPORTING/122 9 Chestnut St., Phila.,Pa./(215) 564-5380 Hartman 15 1 that project? 2 MR. LEVIN: Very simple. 3 MR. VISSt: Move to strike. 4 THE WITNESS: To attempt to come to the 5 most optimum method of manufacturing, both in 6 regard to amount of reinforcing in the wall of 7 the pipe and the thickness of the pipe. The 8 combination of those two give the desired 9 strength and what would be the most optimum 10 relationship. 11 12 BY MR. VISSE: 13 Q. What elements were you working with in order to 14 insure the optimum strength? What raw materials were 15 you experimenting with? 16 A. The change, as far as the raw materials are 17 concerned, would be with the amount of reinforcement 18 with the fibre. 19 Q. What fibre is that? 20 A. Any of the fibres available, whether they were 21 chrysotiles or crocidolites, which were the two main 22 types of fibre used, and, of course, the grades of those 23 fibres. 24 Q. So, are you talking about asbestos fibres of 25 various types and grades? ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St., Phil a.,Pa./(215)564-53 80 Hartman 16 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. In your early work with Keasbey and Mattison as a 3 chemist, particularly in, as you are describing now, 4 your work on asbestos cement pipe, you were already 5 familiar with the different types and qualities of 6 asbestos fibres, is that correct? 7 A. That is correct. e Q. After you were a chemist, what was your next 9 responsibility with Keasbey and Mattison? 10 A. My next responsibility was as Operations Research 11 Director. 12 Q. When did you begin that work? 13 A. That was, I believe, in 1959. 14 Q. And what was your overall responsibility with 15 that position? 16 A. That was a kind of unique position that was 17 created in that our new president of the company asked 18 me to head up an operations research group, which would 19 report to the Board of Directors, who wouldactually 20 control the projects that should be followed, who would 21 serve on the operations research teams, because we would 22 draw from different backgrounds of talent throughout the 23 company for those teams, and then as chairman of the 24 group, I would report to the committee each meeting as 25 to the progress of various operations research teams had ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phil a.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 17 1 completed in between meetings. 2 Q. Did you have any responsibilities during this 3 time, beginning in 1959, other than those, what sound to \ i4i 4 me to be administrative coordinating functions in the j l 5 area of research? ! 6 A. Well, this led later when we analyzed things such 7 as inventory management, to the establishment of the i 8 function of inventory management in the company. i 9 MR. LEVIN: Can you read the question J 1 10 back to me, please? \ 11 (The court reporter reads back the previous 12 question by Mr. Visse as follows: "Q. Did you 13 have any responsibilities during this time, 14 beginning in 1959, other than those, what sound 15 to me to be administrative coordinating functions 16 in the area of research? 17 18 BY MR. VISSE: 19 Q. You had begun to answer that question. 20 A. I was coming to the point in that the operations 21 research did lead to the formation and study of 22 inventory management, concepts and principles, which had 23 not been very much in at Keasbey and Mattison Company. 24 This led to hands-on involvement with the inventory 25 function, particularly with asbestos fibre, because of ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 18 ! 1 its importance throughout all of the products that were 2 made at the time. 3 Q. Do you recall in what year, or approximately what 4 year, you began to have what you described as this 5 hands-on involvement in the inventory management of 6 asbestos fibre for Keasbey and Mattison? 7 A. It was the late '50's early '60's, I don't know e exactly when. 9 Q. These responsibilities that you are describing, 10 regarding asbestos fibre management and inventory, did 11 they involve the asbestos fibre requirements for all of 12 Keasbey and Mattison's operations or just for a limited 13 portion of those operations? 14 A. For all of them. 15 Q. And I would assume, then, that while you were 16 performing this function, you became even more 17 knowledgeable about asbestos fibre usage in the various 18 manufacturing processes of Keasbey and Mattison, is that 19 accurate? 20 MR. LEVIN: Objection. 21 MR. VISSE: I think the question, even if 22 inartfully phrased, is clear. 23 THE WITNESS: Yes, that is correct. 24 25 ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 19 1 BY MR. VISSE: 2 Q. You began as an operations research manager, I 3 suppose we could say in 1959, what was your next 4 position with Keasbey and Mattison? 5 A. Then it would have been as planning manager as 6 operations research was phased out. 7 Q. In what year did that occur, as you recall? 8 A. Within a year or two of the dismantlement, if you 9 will, of Keasbey and Mattison. 10 Q. And was it a year before or a year after that 11 dismantlement? 12 A. The planning function preceeded the 13 di smantlement. 14 Q. So it was a year before? 15 A. Yes. 16 MR. LEVIN: Or two. 17 MR. VISSE: Thank you. Bill. 18 19 BY MR. VISSE: 20 Q. In this position of planning manager, did you 21 continue to have responsibility for asbestos fibre 22 inventory? 23 A. Yes, with the understanding that the inventory is 24 a result of two functions, how much you get in and how 25 much you use. So, in that sense, I had to make the best ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 20 1 determination of how much to get in compared to what we 2 expected to use. The inventory is a resultant, you hope 3 it reaches that. 4 Q. So, you are describing a process by which you 5 tried to control inventory to achieve economic savings 6 for the company? 7 A. That is correct. 8 MR. LEVIN: I think what he's actually 9 doing is telling you what his job was, 10 recharacterizing what you said, control of 11 inventory, which is focusing on the part that he 12 did. 13 MR. VISSE: Okay. 14 15 BY MR. VISSE: 16 Q. Let me ask you, then, as part of this process, 17 you were looking not only at the usage of fibre and the 18 inventory of fibre, but also the receipts of fibre, is 19 that correct? 20 A. That is correct. 21 Q. Was this at each and every plant at this point in 22 time that you were aware of those three factors? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. It is clear from what you said before, then, that 25 the planning manager position was the last position you ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phil a.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 21 1 actually held for Keasbey and Mattison before what you 2 described as the dismantlement, is that right? 3 A. That is correct. 4 MR. VISSE: I'm comfortable to continue to 5 use the word "dismantlement". 6 MR. LEVIN: Well, a lot of words have been 7 used to describe the same thing. I mean it is a 8 matter of actual factual record of what happened, 9 and with that understanding, I don't have any 10 objection to your using whatever word you want to 11 use. 12 MR. VISSE: Off the record. 13 14 (A brief off the record discussion was held.) 15 16 MR. VISSE: Back on the record 17 MR. LEVIN: Back on the record 18 of "dismantlement", we are all objecting to the 19 use of that word, or we are not exactly sure if 20 it is accurately descriptive. It depends on a 21 lot of interpretations and connotations, so in 22 lieu of that, Mr. Visse is going to ask another 23 question and proceed from there. 24 25 ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St., Phila.,Pa./(215) 564-53 80 Hartman 22 1 BY MR. VISSE: 2 Q. The last position that you held for Keasbey and 3 Mattison was that of planning manager, is that correct, 4 sir? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And it was the last position that you held for 7 Keasbey and Mattison because at a point in time 6 Certain-teed acquired the asbestos cement pipe 9 facilities of Keasbey and Mattison, is that correct? 10 A. That is correct. 11 Q. In what year do you recall that as happening, 12 sir? 13 A. That occurred in 1962. 14 Q. And during the remainder of this deposition, when 15 we refer to 1962, it will be clear that we are referring 16 to the acquisition of those facilities by Certain-teed, 17 just so that you understand. 18 A. That is correct. 19 Q. At that time, you continued on with Certain-teed 20 Corporation, is that right? 21 A. That is correct. 22 Q. And the plants that were acquired at this time; 23 do you recall how many they were in number? I'm 24 speaking only of the asbestos cement pipe facilities. 25 A. Four. ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phil a.,Pa./( 215)564-53 80 Hartman 23 1 Q. And do you recall where those were located? 2 A. Santa Clara, California; St. Louis, Missouri; 3 Ambler, Pennsylvania; and the newest plant that had just 4 come on street was Hillsboro, Texas. 5 Q. Were those plants designated by any numbers? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Could you tell me whatthose numbers were? 8 A. Santa Clara was known as plant 56, Hillsboro was 9 known as plant 57, Ambler was known as plant 58, and St. 10 Louis as plant 59. 11 Q. And at the time in 1962 when this transition took 12 place, Certain-teed acquired as well the equipment of 13 those plants, is that your understanding? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And also the manufacturingprocess? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. And also the product line? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. And do you have any recollection about the number 20 of personnel that continued on from Keasbey and Mattison 21 to Certain-teed? 22 A. I do not, no. 23 Q. Speaking onlyabout your particular area of 24 research and AC pipe manufacturing, do you have any 25 estimation about, in broad terms, the number of people ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 24 1 that continued over from Keasbey and Mattison to 2 Certain-teed? 3 A. My recollection, which may be poor, is that there 4 are roughly half of the research group, which would 5 include technicians as well as professional people and 6 secretaries, possibly ten. 7 MR. LEVIN: That is just from the research 8 group? 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 11 BY MR. VISSE: 12 Q. Do you have any information about other divisions 13 of Keasbey and Mattison as to the number of employees 14 that continued over with Certain-teed? 15 A. I do not. 16 Q. At the time of this transition, were your duties 17 essentially unchanged? 18 A. They were unchanged, yes. 19 Q. And so you continued in planning and inventory 20 management under Certain-teed, is that correct? 21 A. That is correct. 22 Q. As part of that did you continue with the 23 responsibility for planning requirements for asbestos 24 fibre for the Certain-teed pipe plants? 25 A. I did. ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phil a.,Pa./(215)564-53 80 Hartman 25 1 Q. And just moving up the time scale a bit, what was 2 the next position that you held in Certain-teed? 3 A. In approximately 1974 an opportunity arose, which 4 for several years I was, I headed up the technical 5 services group, mainly because of my background in 6 chemistry. 7 Q. And what was the focus of the technical service 8 group? 9 A. The focus was mainly in quality control and 10 standards. 11 Q. In the manufacture of asbestos cement pipe? 12 A. That is correct. 13 Q. When you headed up the technical control group, 14 did you retain any responsibility regarding fibre 15 management ? 16 A. I did. 17 Q. Were they essentially the same responsibilities 18 that you had held earlier? 19 A. That is correct. 20 Q. And what position did you next hold under 21 Certain-teed? 22 A. Unfortunately, there were too many of these 23 titles and so forth that I have had over the years. 24 Q. Let's just talk about substantial changes. 25 A. Well, I guess the most substantial that followed ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 26 1 that was the current one I had for several years prior 2 to going on termination was Asbestos Pipe, AC Pipe 3 Coordinator and Fibre Specialist. 4 Q. And what year did you begin that responsibility? 5 A. Approximately 1982, I guess. 6 Q. And in that position, did you also continue to 7 retain responsibility for fibre management? 8 A. Yes, that is correct. 9 Q. Essentially, in the same functions that you had 10 been performing up to that point in that area? 11 A. That is correct. 12 Q. So, is it fair to say that from 1959 to 1980 and 13 even beyond, that you had responsibility for planning 14 the needs for asbestos fibres for the AC pipe division 15 of Keasbey and Mattison and later Certain-teed 16 Corporation? 17 A. That is a fair statement, yes. 18 Q. I would like to ask you some questions now about 19 your knowledge, which is specialized, I understand, 20 about fibre sources and also fibre types. From 1959 on 21 you have told us that you held responsibility for 22 planning the purchase requirements for asbestos, for the 23 AC pipe division of Keasbey and Mattison? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And consequently is it, and I think we've already ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 27 1 briefly hinted at this, you were familiar with the 2 various types of asbestos before 1959? 3 A. That is correct. 4 Q. And you have already mentioned a number of types, 5 I believe you mentioned chrysotile, crocidolite, and I 6 don't know whether you have mentioned amocite, but you 7 are familiar with amocite fibre, as well? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Could you tell me the geographical source of 10 chrysotile fibre? 11 A. The largest deposits of chrysotile fibre are in 12 Canada, Russia, that is the the largest. Crocidolite is 13 mainly in South Africa as well as the amocite. 14 Q. Amocite, as well? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. You consider Rhodesia South Africa? This is not 17 meant to be a geography test. Technically Zimbabwe, I 18 suppose. 19 HR. LEVIN: Southern Africa. 20 THE WITNESS: Southern Africa, correct. 21 MR. VISSE: Not using national or political 22 determinations. 23 MR. LEVIN: Right. 24 25 ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 28 1 BY MR. VISSE: 2 Q. I take it you are familiar with the different 3 characteristics of types of asbestos as they relate to 4 the manufacturing specifications for asbestos cement 5 products, and in particular asbestos cement pipe, is 6 that accurate? 7 MR. LEVIN: Objection. Over broad, vague, 8 no foundation. 9 10 BY MR. VISSE: 11 Q. Could you describe for me briefly, and I'm 12 speaking now in terms of crocidolite and chrysotile, 13 what the relative advantages are, one over the other, in 14 terms of asbestos cement pipe? 15 A. In a layman's sense? 16 Q. I would particularly appreciate that. 17 MR. LEVIN: Very simple, remember. 18 MR. VISSE: Move to strike. 19 THE WITNESS: The chrysotile fibre is 20 generally a softer, it is a water loving product. 21 It is easily deformed. This is in contrast to 22 crocidolite or blue fibre, which is a harsh 23 fibre, which is not absorbant, water absorbant to 24 the extent that chrysotile is, and it is very 25 difficult to deform. It filters much faster than ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 29 1 chrysotile fibre, which is important in a i 2 asbestos cement products. 3 "" I 4 5 BY MR. VISSE: I ! 6 Q. And why is that? * 7 A. Because if you cannot de-water your slurry, you j 8 will get a product that is deformed too much, it is not j 9 an acceptable product. 10 Q. Are there any othercharacteristics of the I s ! 11 crocidolite fibre that recommends it to asbestos cement ' 12 pipe for purposes of strength? 13 MR. LEVIN: Do you mean as opposed to? 14 MR. VISSE: Yes, as opposed to chrysotile. 15 THE WITNESS: An advantage of the blue 16 fibre is it is generally longer, and the longer 17 the fibre, the better the reinforcement. That is 18 a pretty broad statement. 19 20 BY MR. VISSE: 21 Q. And so, in layman's terms, would it be fair to 22 say that by increasing the relative percentage of 23 crocidolite fibre and adding it's longer fibre length, 24 you would also to some extent be increasing the strength 25 value of the asbestos cement pipe? ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./{215)564-5380 Hartman 30 1 A. Normally, but again in layman's terms, increasing 2 the blue content does increase the cost of the product. 3 Q. So, it is your understanding that the blue fibre 4 is a more expensive fibre? 5 A. Normally, yes. 6 Q. I take it, then, that you are also familiar with 7 the fibre contents of asbestos cement pipe, and let me B focus now on the Santa Clara plant, from the time of 9 it's opening, and that would be in what year? 10 MR. LEVIN: Objection, no foundation. Over 11 broad. Vague. 12 13 BY MR. VISSE: 14 Q. You have already testified that you were familiar 15 with the asbestos requirements at all of the asbestos 16 cement pipe plants, is thatcorrect? 17 A. That is correct. 18 Q. So, I'm asking you now whether you are familiar 19 with the asbestos requirements of the Santa- Clara plant? 20 A. Yes. 21 MR. LEVIN: Objection, over broad and calls 22 for speculation as to the time period prior to 23 him having that kind of a job. 24 25 ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St., Phil a.,Pa./(215) 564-5380 Hartman 31 1 BY MR. VISSE: 2 Q. Did you have any knowledge about the asbestos 3 requirements at the Santa Clara plant prior to 1959? 4 A. Certainly not to the degree I did when I got the 5 responsibility for it. 6 Q. But you did have some, is that correct? 7 A. I knew they had to have asbestos fibre to make 8 the pipe, yes, sir. 9 Q. Did you know in what percentages the asbestos 10 fibre was used in the product at the Santa Clara plant 11 prior to 1959? 12 A. I did. 13 Q. Can you tell me what those relative percentages 14 were? 15 A. In the Santa Clara plant, we were restricted to 16 the diameter for which the pipe was made. We could not 17 make pipe greater than 12 inches in diameter. 18 Q. Was that for the year 1959 until what year that 19 you were restricted to the 12 inch diameter? 20 A. 12 inch diameter was a constant restriction-- 21 Q. Throughout the life of the plant? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. 24 A. Contrasting, say making a class 200 pressure pipe 25 in a 12 inch diameter, this would require a greater ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phil a.,Pa./(215) 564-5380 Hartman 32 1 usage of reinforcing fibre in a length of that pipe than 2 it would for a pipe of say four inch diameter, thin wall 3 building sewer pipe. The amount of reinforcement for 4 that latter pipe would be much less than for the 12 inch 5 200 pressure pipe. 6 Q. Now, you're talking about the relative content of 7 asbestos in the product? 8 A. That is correct. 9 Q. What would have been the maximumpercentage of 10 asbestos in any of the products at theSanta Clara 11 plant, and I'm asking now if you have information 12 beginning in 1959? 13 A. The specifications normally did not exceed 20 14 percent for the greatest requirement. 15 Q. And for the products requiring the least amount 16 of asbestos content, that would have been what percent? 17 A. Possibly- eleven to twelve. 18 Q. Now, I know this is difficult to do on years, and 19 I would like to be as accurate as we can, but, beginning 20 in 1959, let's say up until the time that you did have 21 responsibility for planning and inventory for asbestos, 22 which was, help me out here, what year? 23 A. With Certain-teed, '62, '63. 24 MR. VISSE: Off the record. 25 ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 33 1 2 (A brief off the record discussion was held.) 3 4 MR. VISSE: Back on the record. 5 6 BY MR. VISSE: 7 Q. So, your testimony is that from 1959 when you 8 did, in fact, have responsibilities for determining the 9 purchase requirements for asbestos for the AC pipe 10 division, that the maximum asbestos content in the Santa 11 Clara pipe products was about 20 percent, and the 12 minimum would have been between eleven and twelve 13 percent. Do you have any estimation, beginning in 14 1959, for any period of time, whether there were more 15 products having the higher asbestos content than the 16 1 ow e r ? 17 MR. LEVIN: Objection, vague. 18 MR. VISSE: Pretty vague, but is that at 19 all intelligible to you? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is intelligible. 21 MR. VISSE: Take a crack at it. 22 THE WITNESS: Generally what happened, 23 throughout the history of the pipe, the average 24 diameter of the pipe did increase with time. 25 That is, for example, when they started out maybe ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 34 1 we made a lot of four inch and six inch pipe, 2 then three and four dropped out and six and eight 3 became more popular, and as time went on even 12 4 inch became more popular pipe, with a lot of 5 footage being sold, so that indeed while 6 your tonage per year, for example, may have 7 remained essentially level, you used more fibre 8 because your demand was getting to be for a more 9 highly refined pipe, that is, more highly greater 10 requirements for fibre. 11 12 BY MR. VISSE: 13 Q. Are you able to put any year or approximate year 14 on when, let us say, the six and the eight inch pipe 15 became the predominant product at the Santa Clara plant 16 and the four inch pipe was phased out? 17 A. I would be very hesitant to do that. 18 Q. How about the 12 inch pipe; would you be able to 19 assign a year or an approximate year? 20 A. Well, as far as that goes, that was the highest 21 they could make, so even though the market demanded pipe 22 that would be greater than that, they couldn't supply 23 it. They had to get it from another plant, so their own 24 requirements did go up, but f would not like to say, you 25 know, what the progression was. ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phil a.,Pa./(215) 564-53 80 Hartman 35 1 Q. Fine, we have been talking about, up to this 2 point, about the relevant percentage of asbestos fibre 3 to other elements used in the construction of the 4 asbestos cement pipe. I would like to ask you now about 5 the relevant percentage of fibre types, chrysotile and 6 crocidolite, and could you estimate for me, I believe we 7 began last time from the plant's opening in 1953, what 8 the relative percentage of fibre types was in these 9 products? 10 MR. LEVIN: Objection, calls for 11 speculation, no foundation, over broad. Is this 12 something you know? 13 THE WITNESS: No, my reference was, I 14 believe, that the plant opened in '52, didn't I? 15 MR. VISSE: Beginning in '52, if you 16 prefer, that is fine. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, would you repeat the 18 question? 19 20 BY MR. VISSE: 21 Q. The question now is for the Santa Clara plant, 22 beginning in '72, do you have recollection of the 23 relevant percentages-- 24 MR. LEVIN: '52. 25 MR. VISSE: '52, the relative percentages ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 36 1 of fibre types that were used in the asbestos 2 cement products? 3 MR. LEVIN; Objection, calls for 4 speculation, no foundation, over broad. 5 THE WITNESS: In the broadest sense, if I 6 may, we always, I should not have said always, 7 blue had historically been at the 20 percent 8 level for filtration purposes. As we learned to 9 get better felts in making the pipe, we didn't 10 need as much blue, blue was the most expensive, 11 so the trend was always to use less and less 12 blue. For a short period of time, actually, at 13 Santa Clara no blue was used at all in their 14 production for over a year, but except for that 15 time the trend had been for maybe an average of 16 20 percent blue down to maybe 12 percent blue 17 when they were phased out. 18 19 BY MR. VISSE: 20 Q. And do you remember when they were phased out? 21 A. The last record of usage, I believe, was in 1982. 22 MR. LEVIN: Obviously, to the extent that 23 there are documents which set out the relative 24 quantities of fibres, I'm going to object to 25 testimony as being not the best evidence. ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 37 II 1 MR. VISSE: It is the best evidence which 2 this witness has given, which I'm pleased to 3 receive. Let's take a short break. j 4 MR. VISSE: Off the record. j 5 6 (A brief off the record discussion was held.) 7 8 MR. VISSE: Back on the record. 9 10 BY MR. VISSE: 11 Q. So, you have indicated that over time, beginning 12 in 1952, when blue fibre constituted about 20 percent of 13 the product at the Santa Clara plant, that that 14 percentage gradually decreased in time until it was 15 about 12 percent when phased out in 1982, is that 16 correct ? 17 MR. LEVIN: Same objection as to the 18 calling for speculation and no foundation, and 19 over broad. 20 THE WITNESS: The statement you made was 21 incorrect, not 20 percent of the pipe but 20 22 percent of the fibre blend. 23 MR. VISSE: Thank you. Off the record. 24 25 ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St., Phila.,Pa./(215)56 4-5380 Hartman 38 1 2 (A brief off the record discussion was held.) 3 4 MR. VISSE: Back on the record. 5 MR. LEVIN: Just so that it is clear, all 6 of these things are estimates, isn't that 7 correct? 8 THE WITNESS: That is exactly what I said, 9 yes. 10 MR. LEVIN: You may have lost that estimate 11 quality in the follow-up questions. 12 MR. VISSE: Then I'll try to make one final 13 stab at a clear statement of what your testimony 14 is. 15 16 BY MR. VISSE: 17 Q. Beginning in 1952, the products at the Santa 18 Clara plant constituted, at a maximum, 20 percent 19 asbestos fibre, 20 percent of which would have been 20 blue, and that 20 percent of the asbestos content of the 21 product gradually decreased over time to about 12 22 percent when it was phased out in 1982, is that 23 accurate? 24 A. That is accurate. 25 MR. LEVIN: Same objections as to no ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St., Phila., Pa./(215) 564-53 80 Hartman 39 1 foundation, over broad, calls for speculation, 2 compound. 3 4 BY MR. VISSE: 5 Q. As you stated earlier, your responsibilities for 6 planning requirements for asbestos fibre continued after 7 1962, and is it fair to say that the relative percentage 8 of asbestos content of the Santa Clara product continued 9 after 1962 as it had been immediately before? 10 MR. LEVIN: Objection vague, ambiguous, 11 over broad. I mean do you mean whether the fact 12 that there was fibre continued or that the same 13 concentration continued? 14 MR. VISSE: The same percentages, which 15 have already been stated. 16 MR. LEVIN: Because he has already said 17 that the percentage changed, and that is why I 18 have trouble with that. 19 MR. VISSE: Let me ask it this way. 20 21 BY MR. VISSE: 22 Q. Shortly before the transition in 1972-- 23 MR. LEVIN: 52. 24 MR. FISHER: '62. 25 MR. VISSE: '62. ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St., Phil a. , Pa./(215) 564-5380 Hartman 40 1 BY MR. VISSE: 2 Q. Shortly before the transition in 1962, are you 3 able to estimate for me the percentage of fibre that was 4 contained in the asbestos cement pipe product 5 manufactured at the Santa Clara plant? 6 A. Do I know what the actual percentage was in the 7 year, say, 1961 for that mix that they required? 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. I do not have that data. 10 Q. Are you able to give me an estimate of what the 11 percentage of fibre content would have been in 1961? 12 A. I couldn't give you a reasonable answer. I feel 13 good enough with time and a calculator and so forth, but 14 not off the top of my head. 15 Q. Maybe we can do that after the break, then. Do 16 you have memory of what the relative percentage of 17 chrysotile to crocidolite fibres were in the asbestos 18 cement products at the Santa Clara plant before the 19 transition in 1962? 20 MR. LEVIN: Calls for speculation. 21 THE WITNESS: Not to the degree that I can 22 answer that for all products, because it was 23 variable. 24 25 ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phil a.,Pa./( 215)564-53 80 Hartman 41 1 BY MR. VISSE: 2 Q. Is it your recollection that after the 3 transition, that is to say after Certain-teed acquired 4 the facility in 1962, that the relative percentages 5 remained unchanged, and I'm speaking of the relative 6 percentage of chrysotile to crocidolite. 7 MR. LEVIN: Calls for speculation, it is 8 also over broad. He has testified there is a 9 variety of different diameters and thicknesses. 10 THE WITNESS: It did vary with diameter and 11 thickness, but the intent always had been to 12 proportionately reduce the amount of blue. 13 MR. VISSE: Okay, let me try the question 14 slightly differently, then. 15 16 BY MR. VISSE: 17 Q. Was there anything that happened at the time of 18 the transition in 1962 that causes you to think or to 19 know that the relative percentage of chrysotile to 20 crocidolite fibre changed at that time in any 21 appreciable way? 22 A. I know of no correlation with the change. 23 Q. Was there a period of time at the Santa Clara 24 plant when blue fibre was not being used for an 25 appreciable period of time? ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St., Phila.,Pa./( 215)564-5380 Hartman 42 1 A. That is correct, I don't remember the exact year 2 without reference, but there was a time for more than a 3 year that there was no blue used in any of their 4 production. 5 Q. Do you recall any reason why that took place? 6 A. It took place mainly to see if it could be done 7 without detriment to the product. 8 Q. Do you recall what the conclusion of that, if we 9 can call it an experiment, was? 10 A. Well, the conclusion was that we did go back to 11 using blue at the end of that time period in a lesser 12 quantity. 13 Q. Was there a reason why you continued the use of 14 the blue? 15 A. The reason for it is that it does not stay as 16 firm on the mandrel when you did not use blue in the 17 production. 18 MR. VISSE: This might be a good time to 19 break, if you're going to be making a.call in 20 five minutes. 21 22 (A brief recess was held at 3:40 P.M.) 23 24 MR. VISSE: Back on the record. 25 ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 43 1 BY MR. VISSE: 2 Q. Sir, 1 would like to ask you some questions now 3 about contracts that you may have been familiar with 4 regarding fibre purchase during your employment with 5 Keasbey and Mattison. You have already told us that 6 beginning in '59, you were responsible for planning the 7 requirements for asbestos fibre in AC pipe division at K 8 and M and later at Certain-teed. And speaking now of 9 the period from 1959 to 1962, was it your understanding 10 that, well, let me phrase it in an open-ended way; what 11 was your understanding as to the manner in which 12 contracts were arranged for the purchase and supply of 13 asbestos? 14 MR. LEVIN: No foundation, over broad, open 15 ended. 16 MR. VISSE: Let me ask it this way, Mr. 17 Hartman. 18 19 BY MR. VISSE: 20 Q. During the period 1959 to 1962, when you did have 21 responsibility for planning requirements for asbestos 22 fibre, did you have occasion to review or have access to 23 or make use of purchase contracts for asbestos fibre? 24 A. At that time, I did not. 25 Q. You did not? ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 44 1 A. No. 2 Q. Were you aware ofany purchase contracts during 3 that period of time from 1953 to '62, for asbestos 4 fibre? 5 MR. LEVIN: Vague, calls for speculation, 6 ambiguous. 7 THE WITNESS: My understanding was whether 8 it was a written contract or not, the fibre 9 requirements were to be satisfied by Turner and 10 Newall. 11 12 BY MR. VISSE: 13 Q. What isthe basis-- 14 MR. LEVIN: Move to strike as 15 non-responsive. 16 17 BY MR. VISSE: 18 Q. What is the basis for your understanding that 19 there was a requirement that Turner and Newall provide 20 the asbestos fibre? 21 A. My understanding was that since they owned the 22 company and were the suppliers, we were to buy the fibre 23 from them. 24 MR. LEVIN: Same objections. No 25 foundation, calls for speculation, over broad. ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phil a.,Pa./( 215) 564-53 80 Hartman 45 1 2 BY MR. VISSE: 3 Q. Given your understanding that it was the 4 requirement that Certain-teed acquire it's, I'm sorry, 5 that Keasbey and Mattison acquire it's fibres from 6 Turner and Newall during this period of time, do you 7 recall whether there were specific procedures that were 8 used year to year, for doing that? 9 MR. LEVIN: Vague, ambiguous, no 10 foundation. 11 THE WITNESS: As I mentioned, my role was 12 to determine what our needs were. The 13 responsibility for seeing that these were related 14 to the proper places was through our president, 15 Robert Porter. 16 17 BY MR. VISSE: 18 Q. So you would communicate to Mr. Porter the 19 requirements for asbestos fibre? 20 A. Generally, through another vice-president at the 21 time, Mr. Ralph Lanz. 22 Q. How would you spell his name? 23 A. L-A-N-Z. 24 Q. And did you discuss with Mr. Lanz the 25 requirements that you foresaw for the coming year in ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phil a.,Pa./(215) 564-5380 Hartman 46 1 terms of asbestos fibre? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And did you discuss withhim therequirements of 4 each plant as you foresaw it for the coming year? 5 A. Normally, he was more interested in the totals, 6 not grade and type. 7 Q. But you were aware of the individual requirements 8 of each plant? 9 A. Oh, yes. 10 Q. Was it your understanding that the contracts at 11 that time, '59 to '62, would specify the grade and 12 amount of fibre required for the coming year? 13 MR. LEVIN: Objection, over broad and no 14 foundation. 15 THE WITNESS: That was my understanding, it 16 was the total amount for the year by grade. 17 18 BY MR. VISSE: 19 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to who th.e suppliers 20 were that these contracts were entered in with? 21 MR. LEVIN: Same objections. 22 MR. VISSE: We are speaking of the years 23 '59 to '62. 24 THE WITNESS: Our requirements were given 25 to T and N, now if you mean in regard to what the ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St., Phil a., Pa./(215) 564-5380 Hartman 47 1 source of that would be, we could ask, for 2 example, C and G, they would reply if they can 3 supply that total amount or not, and if not, it's 4 substitute would be available. 5 MR. LEVIN: Move to strike as 6 non-responsive. 7 8 BY MR. VISSE: 9 Q. As I understand your answer, when you would order 10 from Turner and Newall, you would specify the type of 11 fibre that you required, for instance C and G, is that 12 correct? 13 A. May I ask a question? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. Are you talking about the total requirements for 16 the year or individual releases against the total asked 17 for for the year? 18 Q. You lead me to ask you a further question. 19 MR. LEVIN: I was going to object to the 20 other one as vague, ambiguous and over broad. 21 22 BY MR. VISSE: 23 Q. Is it your recollection that there were contracts 24 obligating Certain-teed, I'm sorry, obligating Keasbey 25 and Mattison, to acquire their fibre from Turner and ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phil a.,Pa./(215) 564-53 80 Hartman 48 1 Newall for a full year period? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And is it further your understanding that-- 4 MR. LEVIN: That was no foundation, calls 5 for speculation, over broad. 6 7 BY MR. VISSE: 8 Q. Is it further your understanding that in the 9 course of that year, covered by a contract, that 10 individual orders would be placed pursuant to that 11 contract? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And the individual orderswouldspecify the grade 14 of fibre being requested, is that correct? 15 A. That is correct. 16 Q. These purchase orders wereissued toTurner and 17 Newall you indicated? 18 A. As far as the purchase orders are concerned? 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. I would have to defer toanother department for 21 that. 22 Q. What department would that be? 23 A. Purchasing. 24 Q. And do you know what during the period 1959 to 25 '62, who in purchasing would have handled the orders ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 49 1 directed to Turner and Newall? 2 A. In that time period, to the best of ray 3 recollection, it was James Durkin. i i j 4 Q. During the period 1959 to 1962, did you prepare ; i 5 the purchase orders? 6 A. I did not. ' 7 Q. Do you know who did prepare those? 8 A. As I just mentioned, I think that was James 9 Durkin. Q. I'm sorry, thank you. 10 . I j ! 11 Q. Did you have any part in the preparation of the j 12 purchase order during the years 1959 to '62? 13 A. No, sir. 14 Q. Did you supply any of the information-- i 1 15 A. Yes. f 16 Q. --that was incorporated into the purchasing 17 order? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Did you have opportunity to review the purchasing ' 20 order for accuracy or for any other reason? i 21 A. No. | i 22 Q. Did you ever see any of the purchasing orders i 23 from 1959 to 1962? 24 A. I don't remember. 25 Q. Are you familiar, and speaking again of the ; ALL POINTS REPORTING/122 9 Chestnut St., Phila., Pa./(215) 564-5380 Hartman 50 1 period 1959 to 1962, are you familiar of the process 2 that would ensue once the purchase orders were sent to 3 Turner and Newall? 4 A. I don't understand the question. 5 MR. LEVIN: Objection. 6 7 BY MR. VISSE: 8 Q. Are you aware, again speaking 1959 to 1962, of 9 any of the provisions of the purchase order other than 10 those parts which indicated fibre types and fibre 11 amounts being requested? 12 MR. LEVIN: Objection, no foundation, calls 13 for speculation. Vague. 14 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do not know. 15 16 BY MR. VISSE: 17 Q. You do not know any other parts of the purchase 18 order other than the ones indicating amount and fibre 19 type? 20 A. Correct, that is right. 21 Q. Are you aware in speaking for the period '59 to 22 '62 of other suppliers to whom purchase orders were sent 23 for asbestos fibre for use in the asbestos pipe 24 facility, asbestos cement pipe facility. 25 MR. LEVIN: Other than? ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phil a.,Pa./(215) 564-53 80 Hartman 51 1 MR. VISSE: Other than Turner and Newall. 2 THE WITNESS: No. I'm hesitating because 3 Turner and Newall did control other fibres that 4 T and N did receive. Now, what routing they may 5 have taken to anyone else, for example, Cassiar, 6 I don't remember. 7 MR. LEVIN: First of all, I move to strike 8 as non-responsive and interpose an objection as 9 to foundation, no foundation, over broad. 10 11 BY MR. VISSE: 12 Q. When you say the Turner and Newall controlled 13 other fibres, are there any that you have in mind? 14 MR. LEVIN: You know, we are in, again, the 15 realm of things that you are being asked to talk 16 about things that may be beyond the scope of what 17 you actually did and knew, and you may be 18 deriving conclusions about things that you are 19 not really in an appropriate position to draw. 20 I'm not telling you how to answer a question, I 21 just wanted you to know that I think he is asking 22 you to form legal conclusions and factual 23 conclusions, that I think there is not a proper 24 foundation for, which is why I make those 25 objections. ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phil a.,Pa./( 215) 564-53 80 Hartman 52 1 MR. VISSE: And before you answer anything, 2 sir, to simply clarify it, it is not my intention 3 to ask you legal conclusions at all. I'm simply 4 following up on a statement that you made 5 earlier, when I had asked you whether you knew 6 for the period '59 to '62, whether orders for 7 asbestos fibre had been sent to anyone other than 8 Turner and Newall, and you responded that Turner 9 and Newall had some influence over other sources 10 of fibre. I was asking for clarification as to 11 what you meant by that. 12 MR. LEVIN: Right, and I think all of it I 13 move to strike as non-responsive, because it is a 14 departure from the original point of question as 15 to whether anyone else got orders, purchase 16 orders, into areas where I think there is not a 17 proper foundation for responses, and there isn't 18 even a question pending. 19 THE WITNESS: I had replied I did not know 20 the path of the paperwork but did indicate that 21 it was general knowledge not legal, that, for 22 example, T and N did have interests, for example, 23 in Bell. 24 MR. LEVIN: But he didn't ask you that. 25 THE WITNESS: He asked were there any other ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St., Phil a., Pa./(215) 564-5380 Hartman 53 1 purchase orders that went out. 2 MR. LEVIN: That is right. 3 THE WITNESS: My statement was I wasn't 4 sure of the path which they followed. 5 MR. LEVIN: I think that is a full and 6 complete answer to that question, and if he wants 7 to ask you about anything else, he can. 8 MR. VISSE: And I will. 9 MR. LEVIN: And he will. 10 MR. VISSE: Let's approach this from a 11 slightly different tract. 12 13 BY MR. VISSE: 14 Q. It appears from the period 1959 to 1962, you were 15 aware that asbestos fibres came for use by Certain-teed 16 Asbestos Cement Pipe Facilities from Turner and Newall, 17 is that correct? 18 A. That is correct. 19 Q. Are you aware of whether asbestos fibres during 20 the period 1959 to 1962 came from any other sources for 21 use by the K and M asbestos cement pipe facilities? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And could you tell me what those sources were? 24 A. As anexample, would be Cassiar. 25 MR. LEVIN: You can tell him all of the ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 54 1 ones that you can. 2 MR. VISSE: You can tell me all of those 3 that you recall. 4 THE WITNESS: C and G, TAK. I would like 5 to ask a question. You asked in '59 to '62, is 6 this restricted to the pipe plants? 7 MR. VISSE: No, to any of K and M's 8 facilities. 9 THE WITNESS: There was a small amount then 10 of Bell fibre. 11 12 BY MR. VISSE: 13 Q. As far as you know, was any of the Bell fibre 14 delivered to the Santa Clara plant? 15 A. Not to my knowledge. 16 Q. I'm going to come back a little later to the 17 fibre types in what I hope will be a quick review, so 18 I'm not going to ask you about those right now. I would 19 like to ask you some questions now about contracts for 20 fibre purchase during your employment with Certain-teed, 21 that is from 1962 on. And so I'm not speaking now of 22 any earlier period of time. 23 A. Okay, I understand. 24 Q. Beginning then in 1962 with the transition, you 25 continued your responsibility for planning the ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phil a.,Pa./( 215)564-53 80 Hartman 55 1 requirements of asbestos fibre for the asbestos cement 2 pipe production, is that right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Did you see any contracts regarding the purchase 5 of asbestos fibre by Certain-teed from Turner and 6 New all? 7 A. I was aware of and did indeed read a pertinent 8 paragraph that had to do with the obligation of 9 Centain-teed to T and N, as far as their fibre is 10 concerned. This relates specifically to the time period 11 which I had mentioned earlier, when I had responsibility 12 for technical services. 13 Q. Just to refresh our recollection, what time 14 period was that? 15 A. That was '74, in the vicinity of. 16 Q. That is when you read the contract? 17 A. That is when I wanted to become sure that it 18 would be possible to investigate other fibre sources 19 throughout the world without running afoul of any 20 agreements that may have been made. 21 Q. And your interest in reading that particular 22 contract was because it, to your understanding, 23 contained provisions that you did not want to run afoul 24 of? 25 A. That is correct. ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phil a.,Pa./(215) 564-53 80 Hartman 56 1 MR. LEVIN: Objection, no foundation. 2 MR. VISSE: I would like to show the 3 witness a copy of an agreement dated April 16, 4 1962, between Turner and Newall, Limited, a 5 United Kingdom Corporation, and Certain-teed 6 Corporation, a Maryland Corporation, which I have 7 already shown to Mr. Levin, and which I'll again 8 hand to him now. 9 10 ( Mr. Levin peruses the document.) 11 12 MR. VISSE: And ask the witness if the 13 second page contains the paragraph to which he 14 was referring. 15 MR. LEVIN: Well, since 1974 is when he 16 said he saw the contract, and this is 1962, it 17 seems to be impossible right at the outset. 18 MR. VISSE: The impossibility is cured by 19 referring to the final pages of this contract 20 which contain continuing agreements holding in 21 force the provisions of the original contract. 22 23 ( Mr. Levin peruses the document.) 24 25 MR. VISSE: Off the record. ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St. , Phil a. , Pa./( 21 5) 564-53 80 Hartman 57 1 2 (A brief off the record discussion was held.) 3 4 MR. LEVIN: Back on the record. I just 5 want to say that this is something Mr. Visse 6 brought to the deposition. I don't know whether 7 it is an accurate copy of anything, and it has 8 got markings on it which are obviously not part 9 of the original. It certainly is apparent, this 10 is not by way of legal objections this is just by 11 way of observations of the document, that we 12 should put in at the time we put in the document 13 so that it is clear, it is obvious that Mr. 14 Hartman was not a signatory to the contract nor a 15 witness to the signature, a witness to the 16 contract being signed. It is probably also 17 fair to say that there is no way of establishing 18 even after we ask him whether he has ever seen 19 anything that this purports to be a copy of, let 20 alone this. 21 With the understanding that all of my legal 22 objections are preserved, why don't you go ahead, 23 preserved until the time of trial at which time 24 I'll make all of those objections. 25 MR. VISSE: It might be possible at this ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 58 1 point to obtain a copy of the original of this 2 document, since we sit here in the very 3 headquarters where such documents might be 4 preserved, and I would be more than welcome to 5 have a copy of that attached as the exhibit and 6 examined by the witness, but, for purposes of 7 proceeding apace and concluding this so that 8 the witness can get home on time, I would like to 9 at this time to just refer to this one, and we 10 can compare them with any others that might be 11 here later on. 12 MR. LEVIN: Just if you can ask him that 13 language in this and ask him to recall whether 14 that is what he has ever seen concerning the 15 events that we are talking about occurred a long 16 time ago, and we don't know where that came from. 17 It seems there is all kinds of authenticity to 18 best evidence problems, foundational, 19 admissibility problems. Maybe he'll say he has 20 never seen anything like this before, and that 21 will make it simpler. 22 MR. VISSE: He may, but they are 23 authenticity and best evidence problems best 24 cured by comparing this copy to whatever records 25 might be on file here. ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 59 1 MR. LEVIN: Where did you get this? That 2 would be an important clue to finding out whether 3 or not it was a copy of something made by 4 Certain-teed of something they have, as opposed 5 to something, you know, something else. 6 MR. VISSE: It was produced in discovery, I 7 can't tell you right now in what. 8 MR. LEVIN: By whom? 9 MR. VISSE: Or by whom, but we'll be able 10 to clarify that on the record later. 11 12 BY MR. VISSE: 13 Q. My question for you now, sir, is as you look at 14 this document, whether this appears to be the document 15 that you just referred to a moment ago when you were 16 referring to an agreement between Certain-teed and 17 Turner and Newall regarding long term requirements for 18 the purchase of asbestos fibre? 19 A. It would appear in the portion that I had the 20 greatest interest in, that at least that portion of it 21 is as I remember what I had read previously. 22 Q. And the portion that you are referring to is that 23 on page three of this document? 24 A. Yes, that is correct. 25 Q. You stated that you reviewed this document in ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 60 1 197 4? 2 A. As I remember, yes. 3 Q. And the document on it's first page states that 4 it was entered into in 1962 for a two year period and 5 contains, I'm sorry, for a ten year period, and contains 6 additions at the back extending that for a number of 7 years. Is it your recollection then that this agreement 8 was in effect in 1974 as you were reviewing it? 9 A. Yes. 10 MR. LEVIN: Same objections as to this 11 agreement being vague and ambiguous and lacking 12 foundation. 13 14 BY MR. VISSE: 15 Q. Do you have any information as to where the 16 original or the copy that you were referring to in '74 17 is kept or retained? 18 A. I do not know where. 19 Q. And do you recall where it was that you were 20 reviewing the document? 21 A. My recollection is that it did come from the 22 legal department. 23 Q. And were you provided with a copy for keeping 24 yourself in your office? 25 A. I really don't remember. My main part, as I ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phil a.,Pa./(215) 564-53 80 Hartman 61 1 said, was only interest in could I investigate other 2 fibres and this said you could, and that was my 3 interest. 4 Q. Could you describe in a little more detail what 5 your interest was? 6 A. I felt it was important that Certain-teed know 7 all it can about potential fibre sources throughout the 8 world. This document said we could investigate other 9 sources. We were not restricted to having to -- I just 10 wanted to proceed legally to get samples to look at 11 other fibres. 12 Q. As you read the document, were there any other 13 requirements in locating, in negotiating with other 14 sources? 15 MR. LEVIN: It misstates his testimony as 16 to having read the document. 17 18 BY MR. VISSE: 19 Q. As you read the portion of the document, which 20 you have been describing to us, was it your 21 understanding in reading it that there were any other 22 requirements in locating and negotiating with other 23 sources the asbestos fibre? 24 A. It is very clear from the document that indeed if 25 we did find another potential source that would be ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St., Phila. , Pa./(215) 564-53 80 Hartman 62 1 favorable for production, it was contingent on us to so 2 notify Turner to give them the opportunity to see if 3 they could have met the price. 4 Q. Did you then, in fact, locate other sources for 5 asbestos fibre? 6 A. Other samples were looked at. I really can't 7 recall right now what any immediate change or potential 8 change came up. I don't know. 9 Q. Do you recall arranging for the purchase of 10 asbestos fibre from suppliers other than Turner and 11 Newall after your review of this document and 12 investigation of other samples? 13 MR. LEVIN: Objection it is vague, over 14 broad, and it is inconsistent with his prior 15 testimony as to all of the other suppliers that 16 were suppliers. 17 MR. VISSE: Go ahead. 18 THE WITNESS: What really happened at the 19 same time framework, our demands had .increased so 20 that other sources had to be gotten anyway in 21 order to meet the total demand, so, it was good 22 in the sense we did know something about other 23 suppliers, because they could not all be met by T 24 and N anyway. 25 MR. LEVIN: Just for clarification, it is ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phil a.,Pa./(215) 564-53 80 Hartman 63 1 apparent that throughout the history of 2 Certain-teed that there were always numerous 3 other suppliers and somehow we've gotten off on 4 the fact of referring to a number of suppliers as 5 T and N who were actually separate suppliers, 6 and I don't know what kind of confusion that will 7 create in the record, particularly for people not 8 present in this room who will be reading the 9 record, but I just want to point out that the 10 term Turner and Newall has been used very loosely 11 to describe bulk itself, and for what other 12 reason-- 13 MR. VISSE: I move to strike Mr. Levin's 14 comments as to testimony-- 15 MR. LEVIN: I'll object on the basis of my 16 speech to the characterization of any question or 17 answer that has Turner and Newall characterized 18 as anything other than itself, and will move to 19 strike or modify either the question or answer 20 that seems to imply that Turner and Newall is 21 anything other than Turner and Newall. 22 MR. VISSE: I think there is enough 23 ambiguity in those motions that I won't even 24 respond. 25 ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phil a.,Pa./(215) 564-53 80 Hartman 64 1 BY MR. VISSE: 2 Q. It is your understanding then, Mr. Hartman, that 3 in addition to this multi-year contract that we have 4 been speaking about, there were also one-year contracts 5 between Certain-teed and Turner and Newall regarding the 6 purchase of asbestos fibre, is that correct? 7 A. That is correct. 8 Q. And that these yearly contracts continued for a 9 period of time during this multi-term contract? 10 A. Yes, with the understanding as I tried to mention 11 earlier, that as total demands increased, the necessity 12 to adhere to the contract became less and less binding 13 because other sources had to be brought into the usage 14 domain. 15 Q. And how long during-- 16 MR. LEVIN: Move to strike those portions 17 that are non-responsive. 18 19 BY MR. VISSE: 20 Q. How long did Certain-teed continue to use the 21 device of annual contracts to arrange for asbestos 22 fibre? 23 A. I don't remember when it was terminated, 24 altogether. 25 Q. Was it terminated sometime in the last five ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phil a.,Pa./(215)564-53 80 Hartman 1 years, for instance? 55 .i 2 MR. LEVIN: The past five years? 3 MR. VISSE: Yes. 4 MR. LEVIN: No foundation, calls for ! 5 speculation. 6 THE WITNESS: Same, sorry. I wouldn't know 1: 7 how to answer that completely. 8 -- 'i 9 BY MR. VISSE: 10 Q. Is it your recollection that annual contracts 11 continue to be used up until say 1980? 1 12 A. I don't know. I don't think so. 1 j 13 Q. You think it was sometime before that? 14 A. Yes. 15 - - - ; 16 ( Witness peruses documents from briefcase ) 17 - - - 18 Q. Do you have any idea how long before that? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Would you like to show me something that would-- 21 MR. LEVIN: I have an extra set if you 22 want. 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 24 (Mr. Levin hands documents to the witness.) 25 ~ - ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215) 564-53 80 Hartman 66 1 BY MR. VISSE: 2 Q. Mr. Hartman, you produced at your prior 3 deposition, I think there were nine pages of handwritten 4 charts recording the various types of asbestos fibres 5 that were used, received, or on inventory at the Santa 6 Clara plant for the years 1962 through 1982 on a monthly 7 basis? 8 MR. LEVIN: Actually, what happened was 9 Certain-teed supplied these documents which later 10 became exhibits to Mr. Dibble, in advance of the 11 deposition, and then they were just referred to 12 in the deposition. It wasn't Mr. Hartman that 13 produced them. It was Certain-teed that produced 14 them in response to discovery in advance of the 15 deposition. 16 MR. VISSE: Thanks for the clarification. 17 18 BY MR. VISSE: 19 Q. Were these documents thatwe are referring to 20 prepared by you, these nine pages ofhandwrittencharts? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And were they prepared by you as you became aware 23 of the purchases and the usages that are reflected in 24 those charts? 25 A. Yes. ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 67 1 MR. LEVIN: Completely? 2 THE WITNESS: At the time of the ~ 3 4 BY MR. VISSE: 5 Q. I'm referring now only to the nine page ones that 6 were, I believe, marked Exhibit-1. 7 MR. VISSE: I don't know if it was 8 plaintiff or defendant. 9 MR. LEVIN: Plaintiff's 1-A through-- 10 MR. VISSE: 1-1. 11 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, to clarify 12 something, legalistic and everything else, if 13 your question was did I do this every month as 14 the data was available, normally, yes. If I was 15 out on vacation, maybe I missed a month and 16 picked it up the next month, they were 17 simultaneous with the dates. 18 MR. VISSE: That clarification helps. 19 20 BY MR. VISSE: 21 Q. So as far as you're concerned given your 22 responsibilities for maintaining inventory of fibres, 23 these were kept in the ordinary course of your business, 24 is that correct? 25 A. That is correct. ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St. , Phila. , Pa./(215) 56 4-53 80 Hartman 68 1 Q. They are, to the best of your knowledge, 2 accurate? 3 A. They are accurate. They were used as a basis for 4 reporting to the government, as we were compelled to do 5 each year. Your question was were they accurate. I 6 said they had to be. 7 Q. What office of the government were you-- 8 MR. LEVIN: I think when you can you should 9 stick to the yes or no. You don't have to 10 apologize to me, he just can't resist follow up 11 questions, even if they don't lead anywhere, so 12 keeping that quality in mind, you have to try and 13 keep him on the beaten track. 14 MR. VISSE: At the earliest opportunity 15 when I detect they're not going to lead anywhere 16 I'll refrain. 17 18 BY MR. VISSE: 19 Q. What office of the government were you required 20 to make these reports to? 21 A. I think it is the Department of Commerce, Bureau 22 of Mines. 23 Q. Do you remember when you were first required to 24 do that, what year? 25 A. I do not remember. ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phil a.,Pa./(215)564-53 80 Hartman 69 1 Q. Do you remember when you were last required to do 2 that? 3 A. Last requirement was the year 1985. 4 Q. Do you recall where the reports that you were 5 required to submit to the Bureau of Mines were they on 6 forms that were provided by the Bureau of Mines? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you remember where you sent those? I'm sorry, 9 I should ask you first if you were the person who sent 10 those reports? 11 MR. LEVIN: Why start now? 12 THE WITNESS: I did prepare the reports. 13 14 BY MR. VISSE: 15 Q. Do you recall to what office at the Bureau of 16 Mines they were sent? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Was it in California, Colorado, Washington? 19 A. Washington. 20 Q. Was there aparticular department thatyou 21 remember sending them to? 22 A. I think it was apre-addressedenvelope as I 23 remember now. I don't remember the address. 24 Q. And do you remember in general the content of the 25 report that was required, what information it asked for? ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 70 1 A. The content was the beginning inventory, the 2 receipts, the usage, and the ending inventory of fibre 3 grades, both chrysotile and crocidolite. 4 Q. Did it also ask for amocite? 5 A. If you used it, you were to record it. 6 Q. Did it ask for any other asbestos fibre grade 7 that you can recall? 8 A. Not that I am aware of. 9 Q. Do you remember in what decade you were first 10 required to file these reports, the 'GO'S, '70's, '80's? 11 A. As I recall the '70's. 12 Q. And do you recall if they were filed monthly? 13 A. No, annually. 14 Q. Annual, I'm sorry, thank you. 15 MR. LEVIN: Can we take a short break? MR. VISSE: Yes, a short break. 17 18 (A brief recess was held at 4:40 P.M.) 19 20 MR. VISSE: Back on the record. 21 MR. LEVIN: Yes, back on the record. I am 22 determined as I can be to make sure that this 23 record is impeccably clear. There has been some 24 testimony which has already been commented on 25 about relationships and lack of relationships ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phil a., Pa./(215)564-53 80 Hartman 71 1 between various companies, including Turner and 2 Newall and other companies. There is allegations 3 in different lawsuits, the parameters of which we 4 don't need to go into, but to say that those 5 legal issues are to some extent at issue in 6 cases. Mr. Hartman is not really an expert to 7 comment on any of those relationships and doesn't e have any first hand knowledge of any evidence 9 that has anything to do with any of those 10 relationships, and without trying to muddy up the 11 record with arguments that don't belong here, I 12 just want to say that we would object to any 13 question and answer that has to do, that goes 14 into those areas that doesn't have a proper 15 foundation of personal knowledge on the part of 16 Mr. Hartman, and that to the extent that counsel 17 is comfortable with the record as it is, that is 18 fine. I just want to let him know I'm 19 interposing an objection to all of those 20 questions to the extent that any of them weren't 21 already covered by my prior objections. 22 MR. VISSE: I'll move to strike the 23 prefatory comments preceding the objection, and 24 leave it at that for the time being. 25 MR. LEVIN: You just have to start out the ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St., Phila., Pa./(215) 564-5380 Hartman 72 1 break with an objection, fresh from the break. 2 3 BY MR. VISSE: 4 Q. Mr. Hartman, do you have with you today any 5 documents from the Bureau of Mines? 6 A. I do not. 7 Q. And I would like to have the opportunity to 8 review briefly, as we conclude this deposition, the 9 documents which you have brought with you, and if it is 10 necessary to ask one or two brief questions on them, and 11 as time permits, to do that as well, but that is 12 certainly my hope, that it won't prolong things. 13 MR. LEVIN: Whatever. He has brought to 14 the deposition things he was asked to bring, and 15 anything else that he might have brought seems to 16 me to be beyond the scope of the deposition. We 17 would have to look at them to see. The New York 18 Times is not pertinent. 19 20 BY MR. VISSE: 21 Q. When we took a break, we were on a detour to the 22 Bureau of Mines, and returning now to the exhibit 23 consisting of nine pages that was produced at your last 24 deposition, and which contains figures for stocks and 25 receipts and usages at Santa Clara plant of asbestos ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phil a.,Pa./(215) 564-53 80 Hartman 73 1 fibre, the figures which you have entered into your 2 handwritten summaries came from what source? 3 A. They came from a monthly report from the plant to 4 the, mainly generated for the financial department, that 5 was known as the Raw Material Inventory Report. 6 Q. And for the Santa Clara plant, who was the person 7 responsible for preparing that raw material inventory? 8 A. And I should specify the years here, I believe, 9 the years for your summaries-- 10 MR. LEVIN: '62. 11 MR. VISSE: Go from '62 to '82? 12 THE WITNESS: That is correct. 13 14 BY MR. VISSE: 15 Q. Was there one individual who was responsible 16 during that time for preparing the raw material 17 inventory at the Santa Clara plant? 18 A. I do not know specifically who the individual 19 was. 20 Q. Do you know the names of any of the individuals 21 who prepared those during that period of time? 22 A. Possibly. I would more relate to function, 23 normally the office manager's responsibility. 24 Q. Do you know whether any of the raw material 25 inventories from the Santa Clara plant have been ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 74 1 retained? 2 A. No, I do not. 3 Q. Do you know if it wascompanypolicy for 4 retaining such records? 5 A. There probably was, I do not know the schedule. 6 Q. Fine. 7 Q. Was the same procedure used forreceiving and 8 recording the raw material inventories from plants other 9 than Santa Clara asbestos cement pipe plant? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Was it done for all of those plants? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And movingnow to theotherdocument that was 14 produced at your previous deposition and was entitled 15 Plaintiffs Exhibit-2, which is a one page summary, which 16 was typed. 17 MR. LEVIN: Do you have yours? 18 THE WITNESS: No. 19 MR. VISSE: And which summarized the 20 receipts of various types of asbestos at the 21 Santa Clara plant for the years '63 through '79. 22 and at the Riverside plant for the years '65 to 23 '7 9, on an annual basis. 24 MR. LEVIN: Do you want him to look at the 25 old one? ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St., Phila., Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 75 1 MR. VISSE: Yes. If he would look at that jt 2 briefly. ti 3 MR. LEVIN: I don't think mine has it. 4 MR. FISHER: I have it here. i 5 (Mr. Visse hands documents to Mr. Levin and the 6 witness who peruses same.) t 7 MR. VISSE: Before we look at that, we were j 8 speaking earlier of previously marked Plaintiffs iii j 9 Exhibit 1-A through 1-1, and I would like to 10 attach those as Plaintiffs Exhibits of the same i 11 number to this deposition, as well as the j 12 document I have just described, the one page 13 typed tabulation as Plaintiffs Exhibit-2 to this 14 deposition, as it was numbered in the previous 15 deposition, and I understand that you have 16 compiled an additional document that corresponds 17 to Plaintiff's Exhibit-2, I'm sorry, that you 18 have revised Plaintiff's Exhibit-2 to add a 19 number of years and to delete some information as 20 is already described on the record. 21 MR. LEVIN: I have objections to -- 22 separate objections. I have an objection, let's 23 start with the easiest and most obvious. I have 24 an objection to the attachment of the previous 25 Plaintiffs Exhibit-2 from the 1984 deposition, ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St., Phila., Pa./(215) 564-53 80 Hartman 76 1 because it is not a -- it is hearsay, it is 2 merely a summary that was compiled not 3 contemporaneous with the events that occurred. 4 It is not a business record. It is 5 unauthenticated hearsay. It is, also, has 6 information contained on it that was not prepared 7 by Mr. Hartman, that was prepared by counsel, in 8 order to make life easier for other attorneys in 9 the litigation at an earlier date, so I object to 10 the prior Plaintiffs Exhibits-2. 11 MR. VISSE: Without interrupting you, Bill, 12 if you are finished with your objections on that 13 exhibit, I would just like to ask a few brief 14 questions of the witness that may be relevant to 15 answering those objections if that becomes 16 necessary. 17 MR. LEVIN: Fine. 18 MR. VISSE: Do you have any other 19 objections to that? 20 MR. LEVIN: To the prior Plaintiff's 21 Exhibit-2? 22 MR. VISSE: Yes. 23 MR. LEVIN: No. 24 MR. VISSE: Then we'll come back to your 25 other objections. ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St., Phil a.,Pa./(215) 564-5380 Hartman 77 1 MR. LEVIN: Fine. 2 3 BY MR. VISSE: 4 Q. I'm referring now to Plaintiff's Exhibit-2, which 5 was also attached to your prior deposition, October '84, 6 and you prepared this table drawing on information and 7 your handwritten records Exhibits 1-A through 1-1, is 8 that correct? In other words, the figures in Exhibit-2 9 represent tabulations from Exhibit 1-A through 1-1, is 10 that right? 11 A. I don't think so, because it stopped at 1979, 12 whereas 1-A through 1-1 would have gone higher. This 13 must have been an earlier tabulation that was shrunkated 14 before the last thing was completed here. 15 Q. Did you prepare Exhibit-2? 16 A. As I recall, I did. 17 Q. Do you recall when you prepared it? 18 A. Not really. 19 Q. Do you recall-- 20 A. It must have been 1980. 21 Q. It was not immediately prior to your previous 22 deposition in 1984 then? 23 A. That is correct. 24 Q. Was there a reason that you prepared Exhibit-2 in 25 what you think may have been 1980? ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215) 564-5380 Hartman 78 1 A. Oh, other than it is any summary is much easier 2 to evaluate than a series of raw data. 3 MR. LEVIN: I think he wants to know if 4 there was a precipitating event that caused you 5 to prepare the summary. Did anybody ask you to 6 prepare it, or was it prepared for a specific 7 reason? 8 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. 9 MR. LEVIN: Off the record. 10 11 (A brief off the record discussion was held.) 12 13 MR. VISSE: Back on the record. Continuing 14 now on the record. 15 16 BY MR. VISSE: 17 Q. Referring now again to Exhibit-2, this shows only 18 the receipts of fibre, is that correct? 19 A. That is correct. 20 Q. That means tons received? 21 A. Short tons, yes, sir. 22 Q. Short tons being--? 23 A. Two thousand pounds. 24 Q. Now, on Exhibit-2 there are some handwritten 25 notations at the bottom of each column, and those ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 79 . 1 handwritten notations are not yours, is that correct? ; 2 A. That is correct. 3 Q. Do you know whose notations those are? 4 A. I don't know for sure. 5 Q. Okay, do the notations, which are intended , i j i j I 6 apparently to indicate source and method of j 7 transportation, accurately represent what you know of i 8 the source and manner of transportation for the fibres [ 9 indicated in those columns? ! 10 MR. LEVIN: Objection. No foundation, ' 11 calls for speculation as to the method of 12 transportation. It is also over broad in that 13 it implies as to each column that everything was 14 always done the same way for many years, probably 15 25 years or so, 20 years. 16 THE WITNESS: Your question to me about the 17 country of origin certainly does look correct. 18 The others look reasonable. I do not know if 19 they are completely accurate. 20 MR. VISSE: Thank you. Off the record. 21 22 (A brief off the record discussion was held.) 23 24 MR. LEVIN: I want to complete ray 25 objection. It is a hearsay, it is an objection ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phil a.,Pa./(215)564-53 80 Hartman 80 1 to Exhibit-2 as being hearsay, unauthenticated, 2 not the best evidence, and it is also work 3 product, because it was obviously prepared in 4 connection with litigation at the request of 5 counsel, to facilitate communication, but it was 6 not intended to substitute as an original 7 document, corporate record of Certain-teed, as a 8 matter of evidence to be admitted to show the 9 truth of the facts contained herein. 10 11 BY MR. VISSE: 12 Q. In answer to those objections, just one question, 13 you did prepare this document, sir? You did prepare 14 this document apart from the handwritten notations at 15 the bottom? 16 A. That portion, yes. 17 Q. Fine, and do you know where the original of this 18 document is retained? 19 A. No, I really don't, because that may. have been 20 extended for these additional. The original may have 21 been the one from which these additional were added on. 22 I can't answer it, because I'm not sure. 23 Q. Without considering the additional years not 24 reflected on Exhibit-2 do the facts on here, are these 25 facts accurate to the best of your knowledge? ALL POINTS REPORTING/122 9 Chestnut St.,Phil a.,Pa./( 215) 564-53 80 Hartman 61 1 MR. LEVIN: I'll object to that. The 2 original documents from which this summary is 3 derived speak for themselves. Anybody can make a 4 comparison to determine whether they are the same 5 or different. 6 7 ( Witness perusing two documents.) 8 9 THE WITNESS: As you stated, with the 10 exception of the additional ones, these are the 11 same. 12 MR. LEVIN: And the handwritten notes? 13 THE WITNESS: Well, this only covers Santa 14 Clara. 15 MR. VISSE: Off the record. 16 17 (A brief off the record discussion was held.) 18 19 MR. VISSE: Back on the record. Plaintiffs 20 Exhibit 3-A through 3-1 and Exhibit 4, Exhibits 21 from the other deposition. 22 23 ( Exhibits 3-A - 3-1, and 4 marked for identification.) 24 25 MR. LEVIN: I'll just object to all of them ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 82 1 as hearsay, and unauthenticated. 2 MR. V1SSE: We would like to introduce as 3 exhibits to the deposition nine pages of 4 tabulations of fibre usage for the Santa Clara 5 plant covering the years 1962 through 1982. The 6 nine pages should be marked in order, from 1982 7 back through the page for 1962 to '63 as 8 Plaintiff's Exhibits A through I, 1-A through 9 1-1. 10 MR. LEVIN: It is a best evidence 11 objection. 12 MR. VISSE: We would like to enter a chart 13 brought by the deponent and mark it as 14 Plaintiff's Exhibit-4, which is a tabulation of 15 the charts, 3-A through 3-1, and summarizes the 16 receipts of fibre at the Santa Clara plant for 17 the years 1963 through 1982. 18 MR. LEVIN: I have the same objection to 19 that as to the old exhibit to the extent it is 20 hearsay, it is not authenicated, it is not a 21 business record, and it was prepared in 22 connection with litigation. That is it. 23 MR. VISSE: Okay. 24 25 ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phil a.,Pa./(215) 564-53 80 Hartman 83 1 BY MR. VISSE: 2 Q. Okay, Mr. Hartman, what we've designated as 3 Plaintiff's 3-A through 3-1 are simply better copies of t I 4 Plaintiff's Exhibit 1-A through 1-1, to your last i ii 5 deposition, is that correct? i 6 A. I'm not sure I understand the word "better". i 7 Q. More legible. i ! i 8 MR. LEVIN: You really just have to answer i 9 whether or not they are copies, whether or not 10 they are better or not-- ii 11 MR. VISSE: That is really all I'm asking 12 you is whether they are copies. tti Ii 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, they're copies. 14 15 BY MR. VISSE: i J 16 Q. And Plaintiff's Exhibit-4 is a copy of 17 Plaintiff's Exhibit-2, with the ommission of the 18 Riverside plant figures and the handwritten notations at 19 the bottom of Plaintiffs Exhibit-2 and the addition of 20 some years that were missing from Plaintiffs Exhibit-2, 21 is that correct? 22 A. Yes, that is correct. 23 Q. Looking at Plaintiff's Exhibit-4, looking across I f 24 the top column, we see at the far left hand side it 1 25 Cassiar, could you tell me what Cassiar represents? i | i \ ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phil a.,Pa./(215) 564-53 80 Hartman 84 1 A. Each number in that column represents the tonage 2 by year of the totality of Cassiar fibres that came into 3 the Santa Clara plant. 4 Q. Do you know the country of origin for these 5 Cassiar fibres? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What was that? 8 A. It was Canada. 9 Q. This column of Cassiar fibres is a compilation of 10 the columns on Exhibit 3-A through 3-1, which are headed 11 AK, AZ, is that correct? 12 A. Or any other Cassiar fibre, which may show up. 13 Q. AX? 14 A. Yes, CT, CY, any Cassiar fibre would be shown in 15 that year. 16 Q. For clarity's sake could yousimply run through 17 the list of possible designations for Cassiar fibres 18 that appear on Exhibit 3-A through I? 19 A. They would include AC, AK, AX, AY, AZ,. CP, CY, 20 CT, that should be all. 21 Q. What type of fibre is the Cassiar fibre? 22 A. The Cassiar fibre is a chrysotile. 23 Q. in looking at the nextcolumn onPlaintiffs 24 Exhibit-4, we see the letters all in capitals TAKBTAD 25 what type of fibre were these? ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 85 1 A. Crocidolite fibre. 2 Q. And what was the country of origin for these 3 fibres? 4 A. South Africa. 5 Q. And it is clear to your understanding that the 6 country of origin for all of these fibres in this column 7 was South Africa and not any other countries in Africa? 8 A. Yes, except with the one exception where I have 9 footnote for a modest amount of experimental fibre that 10 I just walked into that usage. 11 MR. LEVIN: That is 1972? 12 THE WITNESS: If I had a ruler, I think 13 that is what it was, yes. 14 15 BY MR. VISSE: 16 Q. This column, TAKBTAD, is a compilation of which 17 columns in Exhibit 3-A through I? 18 A. It would be the same compilation any time where I 19 said TAK and BTAD. 20 Q. Would it include anyfibres designated TAL? 21 A. Yes, it would. 22 Q. And any others? 23 A. There is so little of it, I hadforgotten about 24 that. No others should have been except those normally. 25 Q. And do you know which supplier provided the TAK, ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 86 1 the BTAD and the TAL fibres? 2 A. Those designations meant a Turner fibre. 3 Q. Looking at the next column we have C and G, what 4 type of fibres were those, sir? 5 A. That is a chrysotile fibre. 6 Q. What is the country of origin for those 7 chrysotile fibres? 8 A. In the years shown that was known as Rhodesia, 9 now known as Zimbabwe. 10 Q. Would you happen to know the names of any of the 11 mines from which those fibres originated? 12 A. My understanding was that was the name of the 13 mine, Consolidated and General. 14 Q. Thank you. So, C and G stands for Consolidated 15 and General? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. To your understanding? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And TAL to your understanding represents what? 20 A. I thought it stood for Turner Asbestos and the 21 other letters indicated a grade or type of outcropping, 22 I'm not sure which. 23 Q. Thank you. Looking at the next column, we have 24 the word "havelock"; what type of fibre was havelock? 25 A. Havelock was a chrysotile from South Africa. ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 87 1 MR. FISHER: From Swaziland, right? 2 THE WITNESS: Swaziland, right. 3 MR. VISSE: Do you accept counsel's 4 correction that havelock was from a mine in 5 Swaz iland? 6 THE WITNESS: I think Swaziland was a 7 portion of South Africa, wasn't it, in those 8 days? 9 MR. FISHER: I don't know. 10 THE WITNESS: I think so. 11 12 BY MR. VISSE: 13 Q. Do you know who supplied the havelock fibre? 14 A. I'm not sure I understand the question. It came 15 from the Havelock Mines, the chances are -- well, I 16 don't know. 17 Q. The next column is Griquland, if I'm pronouncing 18 that correctly? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. And do you know what type of fibre this is? 21 A. That was a blue or crocidolite fibre? 22 Q. Do you know the country of origin for that fibre? 23 A. South Africa. 24 Q. Do you know which company supplied the fibre? 25 A. I do not. ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St. ,Phila.,Pa./(215) 564-53 80 Hartman 86 1 Q. If I can refer you to your deposition of a couple 2 of years ago, in answer to that question on page 52. 3 MR. LEVIN: Can you read back the prior 4 question that this is being compared to? 5 6 (The court reporter reads back the previous 7 question as follows: "Q. Do you know which 8 company supplied the fibre?" 9 10 BY MR. VISSE: 11 Q. Let me ask another question. We are looking at 12 the column Griquland; do you recall which company 13 supplied that fibre, sir? 14 A. I just said I do not recall. 15 Q. Having thought about it for a moment, do you 16 recall now? 17 A. I think I do, and I can't be absolutely certain. 18 Q. Well, I'm not asking you to be absolutely 19 certain. 20 MR. LEVIN: Objection. Calls for obvious 21 speculation. 22 23 BY MR. VISSE: 24 Q. With the degree of certainty that you possess, 25 which is short of absolute certainty, can you tell me ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 i 20 21 22 23 24 25 Hartman 89 which company provided that fibre? A. It is my recollection that we could not get all of BTAD and TAK requested and that was made of Griquland fibre. Q. Supplied by? Q. Turner. Q. We are looking at the next column that says "Cape" ; what type of fibre is that? A. That is also a blue. Q. That is crocidolite? A. Yes. Q. The country of origin for that, sir? A. Again, South Africa. Q. And the next column, I believe, it says General Mi nina ? A. That is correct. Q. And the type of fibre there, sir? A. That is also crocidolite. Q. Country of origin? A. South Africa. Q. The next column is Russian, and the type of fibre? A. Chrysotile. o. The country of origin should be obvious? A, Ri gh t. ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 90 1 Q. The next column? 2 A. Asbestos Corp. Fibre. 3 Q. And? 4 A. That is a chrysotile. 5 Q. Country of origin? 6 A. Canada. 7 Q. And the next column, is? 8 A. John's Manville. 9 Q. That was also a chrysotile? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. That was from? 12 A. Canada. 13 Q. And if I recall your prior deposition, the next 14 three columns list three companies, and if you can just 15 read the three companies? 16 A. Jefferson Lake, Pacific Asbestos, Calaverous 17 Asbestos, as shown as separate columns were really all 18 the same ore body; the same mine, that is. 19 Q. The fibre type? 20 A. Chrysotile. 21 Q. Where was that mine located? 22 A. In California. 23 Q. The next column we have is? 24 A. Bell Asbestos. 25 Q. Type of fibre there? ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 91 j 1 A. Chrysotile. 2 Q. Country of origin? j i 3 A. Canada. 4 Q. And then the final column is a total of all of 5 the columns running across the page? 6 A. That is correct. 7 Q. I would like to ask you a few questions, as we 8 approach our deadline for concluding here, regarding the. 9 fibre requirements for Keasbey and Mattison, this is 10 before 1962; do you have any expertise from your 11 position in Keasbey and Mattison as to the fibre i 1 12 requirements for Keasbey and Mattison? \i 13 MR. LEVIN: Objection, vague, particularly 14 in that he held two positions during two distinct 15 time periods, two very different positions. I 16 think that is vague and over broad, and may call 17 for some speculation as to some of the time j 18 period. 19 20 BY MR. VISSE: 21 Q. During either of your positions with Keasbey and 22 Mattison, did you have some expertise regarding the 23 fibre requirements for Keasbey and Mattison? 24 MR. LEVIN: That is compound. 25 THE WITNESS: At the time of needing to ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 92 1 know, I did know what the requirements were. 2 3 BY MR. VISSE: 4 Q. What was the time that you needed to know from 5 your position? 6 A. In that time period that we said before, like 7 late '50's; '59 to '62. 8 Q. In referring to the fibre requirements for all of 9 the Keasbey and Mattison products, could you estimate 10 for me, I'm speaking all Keasbey and Mattison products, 11 not simply the asbestos cement pipe, could you estimate 12 for me what percentage of those requirements was 13 satisfied by Turner and Newall? 14 MR. LEVIN: When is this period now? 15 MR. VISSE: 1959 to 1962. 16 MR. LEVIN: Using the Turner and Newall in 17 the traditional sense as opposed to the other 18 ways that it has been -- 19 MR. VISSE: Using it in the sense the 20 deponent had been using it. 21 MR. LEVIN: Just to be clear, we are 22 talking Turner and Newall as distinct from 23 everything else, okay. 24 THE WITNESS: I did not know. 25 ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phil a.,Pa./( 215) 564-53 80 Hartman 93 1 BY MR. VISSE: 2 Q. Would it help refresh your recollection if I were 3 to refer you to your previous deposition of 1984, page 4 101, where you were asked very much the same question, 5 in what I thought was a fairly cogent and concise 6 fashion, if I may read to you, sir, page 101, line 22, 7 "Well, give me your minimum estimate total from Turner 8 and Newall, whatever source, whether African or non 9 African?" And your answer was, "I would say 90 10 percent." 11 MR. LEVIN: No, it didn't say that. 12 13 BY MR. VISSE: 14 Q. "I would say 90." I am sorry. Question, "90 15 percent?" Answer, "Yes". Does that help refresh your 16 recollection as to the your estimation of the minimum 17 percent of fibres supplied to Keasbey and Mattison by 18 Turner and Newall for the years '59 to '62? 19 MR. LEVIN: He's not asking you if you said 20 that, he's asking you what you now recall looking 21 back, if you know. 22 THE WITNESS: Well, obviously I don't 23 know. 24 25 ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St., Phila.,Pa./(215) 564-5380 Hartman 94 1 BY MR. VISSE: 2 Q. The question was, sir, whether you can give roe an 3 estimate of the amount of fibre, and I believe the 4 question previously was the minimum amount of fibre. 5 MR. LEVIN: All right. He has answered the 6 estimate question by saying he doesn't know. 7 8 BY MR. VISSE: 9 Q. A percentage rounded to the nearest ten would 10 satisfy the question, and it did at your last 11 deposition. 12 MR. LEVIN: Do not feel compelled to 13 satisfy the question. You should be more 14 concerned with being accurate in your answer. 15 THE WITNESS: Is it possible to go off the 16 record? 17 MR. VISSE: Sure. 18 19 (A brief off the record discussion was held.) 20 21 MR. VISSE: Back on the record. 22 23 BY MR. VISSE: 24 Q. Restating the question for Mr. Hartman; during 25 the years '59 to '62, you did have responsibilities for ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 95 1 fibre requirement at Keasbey and Mattison, and asking 2 you now about the fibre requirements for all K and M 3 products, not just the asbestos cement pipe products, 4 can you estimate for me, what percentage of the asbestos 5 fibre came through Turner and Newall? 6 MR. LEVIN: Objection. Vague, ambiguous, 7 calls for speculation. I think you should ask 8 him what percentage of it he thinks was TAK or 9 designations that have already have accepted 10 meaning, even though we don't have the charts for 11 those years. 12 MR. VISSE: Off the record. 13 14 (A brief off the record discussion was held.) 15 16 MR. LEVIN: On the record. I think for 17 purposes, the witness has asked off the record 18 what we consider Cassiar. Do we consider 19 Cassiar as Cassiar or someone else? I think for 20 purposes of what you are trying to do, that we 21 consider Cassiar and any other source as an 22 independent source, and then anybody with half a 23 brain will be able to put together the pieces and 24 draw whatever legal conclusions they want to, 25 but I think it is much more confusing to have ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 96 1 Cassiar considered as anything else other than 2 Cassiar for the purposes of this deposition, for 3 the kind of questions you're asking, because it 4 will make it impossible at a later date to 5 unravel what the witness really meant. 6 MR. VISSE: It would be impossible for me 7 by any objection at this point to remove any 8 influence that Mr. Levin's comments may have had 9 upon the witness. 10 11 BY MR. VISSE: 12 Q. I'll simply restate the question and ask you 13 during the period 1959 to 1962 can you give me your best 14 estimate as to the amount of fibre that came to Keasbey 15 and Mattison for all of it's manufacturing requirements 16 from Turner and Newall? 17 MR. LEVIN: I'm going to object on the 18 grounds that it is vague, ambiguous, and calls 19 for speculation and calls for a legal, conclusion, 20 and to the extent that you're unwilling to 21 clarify the obvious ambiguity, I request that you 22 not answer the question until I'm at least 23 satisfied that you understand the question and 24 that we are not speaking cross purposes, that we 25 are using the same terms in the same way. ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St., Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 97 1 MR. VISSE: Let me ask a different 2 question. 3 4 BY MR. VISSE: 5 Q. During the period 1959 to 1962 referring to fibre 6 requirements for all of the Keasbey and Mattison's 7 products, not just asbestos cement pipe, can you 8 estimate for me the percentage of fibre which you recall 9 coming from Cassiar? 10 THE WITNESS: No. I cannot answer that 11 right off-hand without doing some mental 12 arithmetic of which there would be a lot of 13 things I would have to take into account. 14 MR. VISSE: Okay. 15 16 BY MR. VISSE: 17 Q. In answer to the same question, same time period, 18 same requirements, if you can do the mental arithmetic I 19 would like you to. Are you capable of doing that within 20 a minute or so? 21 A. Can't promise. 22 (The witness is talking quietly to himself.) 23 MR. VISSE: I'm sorry, the last question 24 were you in the process of formulating an answer? 25 THE WITNESS: Not within a minute, I ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 98 1 wasn't. I was trying to sort out what plants, 2 what products, what basic things to use, what did 3 we use, and so forth, and how much. 4 5 BY MR. VISSE: 6 Q. Do you think you're capable of formulating such 7 an estimate after an opportunity of some minutes? 8 A. It would have a potential error term that would 9 be pretty huge, potential error term. 10 Q. Let's let that sit for a minute. Let me ask you 11 the question now, referring to the fibre requirements 12 for Keasbey and Mattison products, all products, not 13 just asbestos cement pipe, for the years 1959 to 1962 14 can you give me an estimate of the amount of fibre that 15 was provided to Keasbey and Mattison by Turner and 16 Newall ? 17 MR. LEVIN: Directly? 18 MR. VISSE: I'll adopt directly. 19 MR. LEVIN: I just want to -- for the 20 record, it calls for speculation. 21 THE WITNESS: If by "directly", you mean 22 the South African or Rhodesian chrysotiles and 23 the blue fibres? 24 MR. VISSE: I'll accept that as the 25 definition of "directly". ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phil a.,Pa./(215) 564-5380 Hartman 99 1 MR. LEVIN: Do you need time to do that as i 2 well? i 3 THE WITNESS: Just a minute. i 4i i 5 (Witness doing some calculations.) 6i 7 THE WITNESS: Of our total usage? j I 8 MR. LEVIN: Am I interrupting your train of j i 9 thought if I say something to you now? j THE WITNESS: Go ahead. 10 ! i 11 MR. LEVIN: Given the potential uses that j 12 this deposition may be put to and given the fact 13 that you have already said that you think there 14 would be a huge margin of error, given the fact 15 we've all just witnessed you try to do some, > 16 through whatever internal mechanism, do some 17 hasty calculations covering some obviously j 18 complex mathematical issues, spanning many, many 19 years and covering many, many plants and many, 20 many products, you should not feel at all 21 obligated to give an estimate. I know that 22 probably, you know, you would like to be as j 23 helpful as you can, but it will not be helpful if 24 the estimate is not within the realm of something 25 that you feel comfortable is reasonably close to ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St., Phila.,Pa./(215) 564-53 80 Hartman 100 1 what happened in the short time that you have 2 been able to think about it. 3 MR. VISSE; I move to strike all of the 4 profitory comments and state an objection as to 5 trying to influence the witness. 6 MR. LEVIN: I'm counselling the witness, 7 that is what I'm here to do, but that is all a 8 long way of saying that I think the question 9 calls for gross speculation. It was lacking in 10 any foundation that gives us any hope of the 11 answer proximating the search for truth 12 that we are all engaged in. 13 MR. VISSE: Which is a less objectionable 14 way of stating your objection. And now your 15 answer, sir? 16 THE WITNESS: In what I'm looking at here, 17 which would be a TAK and C and G, and not having 18 real numbers to look at for that time period 19 using the best of ny ability and knowledge of the 20 products made in that time period, I would 21 anticipate that the answer would be in the range 22 somewhere 22 to 35 percent. 23 MR. LEVIN: For which source? 24 THE WITNESS: For the TAKBTAD, and C 25 and G fibres. ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 101 1 MR. LEVIN: Okay. 2 THE WITNESS: That is considering all 3 of K and M for that time period, all of the 4 products that we made taking into account that 5 the textiles, fabric, all those things like that, 6 but I can't begin to be closer than that, and I 7 may fall out of range. 8 MR. VISSE: You wanted to include in those 9 fibre types TAL, is it? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11 12 BY MR. VISSE: 13 Q. I appreciate your efforts. Given the fact that 14 you are probably the most competant person to make that 15 calculation, I respect that. You would require more 16 time than you have taken for this calculation to make a 17 similar calculation for fibres during that same period 18 '59 to '62 from Cassiar, is that correct? 19 A. M-hmm. I would really want to review that, 20 because I'm not sure when the Clinton Mine came into 21 existence, and things like that, and I'm not really too 22 sure of the real pertinent data of the magnitude that I 23 would like to have, if it even exists anymore. 24 Q. sir, do you have any information regarding the 25 fibres at Bell, Canada, as to it's use by Keasbey and ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 102 1 Mattison during the period '59 to '62? 2 MR. LEVIN: What about it? 3 MR. VISSE: I'm just asking if he has 4 information any information, yes or no. 5 THE WITNESS: His question was do I have 6 any information? Yes, I know that they used a 7 Bell 4K fibre, but quantity and where, 8 specifically, I don't know. 9 MR. VISSE: My question will be much more 10 precise. 11 12 BY MR. VISSE: 13 Q. Do you know if any of the Bell fibre was used at 14 Santa Clara Asbestos Cement Pipe? 15 A. No, I do not know. Chances are it was not for 16 simply logistic reasons. It is way on the east coast, 17 and Santa Clara is way on the west coast, and that would 18 prohibit it from being used in the normal course to any 19 measurable degree. 20 Q. Do you have any information on the packaging of 21 the asbestos fibre that was imported from South Africa 22 during the period of time when you had responsibility 23 for inventory management? 24 MR. LEVIN: Over broad, calls for 25 speculation, it is vague. ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./( 215)564-53 80 Hartman 103 1 THE WITNESS: I know there was changes made 2 over the years, the exact time and amount, it was 3 not my realm really to go into any detail. 4 5 BY MR. VISSE: 6 Q. Do you recall if those shipments were ever made 7 in burlap sacks? 8 MR. LEVIN: Calls for speculation. 9 MR. VISSE: I'm asking about shipments from 10 South Africa, whether they were in burlap sacks? 11 MR. LEVIN: Over broad, too. 12 THE WITNESS: That was a standard 13 packaging. 14 15 BY MR. VISSE: 16 Q. The answer is that was a standard packaging for 17 asbestos fibre from South Africa? 18 A. Yes. We call it a jute bag. 19 Q. Do you recall up until what year? 20 A. No, I do not know that. 21 Q. Can you approximate the year for me? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Could I help you by suggesting a decade; was it 24 in the mid '70's, late '70's, early '80's? 25 MR. LEVIN: I think he has already said he ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 104 1 does not know a year, but he can approximate. 2 Objection, calls or speculation, asked and 3 answered. 4 THE WITNESS: I'm uncomfortable with the 5 time frame of this. 6 MR. VISSE: That is fine sir, I'm not 7 trying to push you into an answer. 8 9 BY MR. VISSE: 10 Q. Do you ever recall seeing any warnings on bags of 11 asbestos supplied to either Keasbey and Mattison or to 12 Certain-teed? 13 A. Yes. Again, I don't know when that started, but 14 it became a mandatory action in a certain period of 15 time, which I don't remember when that was. 16 Q. And do you have any recollection as to the manner 17 in which Cassiar fibre was transported to the Santa 18 Clara plant? 19 A. You mean the final way into the plant? 20 Q. Any point along it's transport from the mines 21 itself to the plant? 22 A. Well, there were two mines. There was rail 23 shipment, there was water transport to Vancouver. There 24 was rail shipment and truck shipment out of Vancouver, 25 and some of it, well, not to -- some didn't have to go ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phil a.,Pa./(215) 564-5380 1 2! j 3| 4 5| 6! 7 8! I 9 10 : 11 ' 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 ! i 20 ; i 21 22 23 24 25 Hartman 105 into Vancouver if it was going to another plant is what I'm saying that most of the material, as I recall, that went to Santa Clara went through Vancouver. I'm not prepared to say whether it went directly from Saint John's, was it? I'm not prepared, because I don't remember. Q. And from Vancouver? A. From Vancouver, normally, rail or truck. MR. LEVIN: How about abnormally? MR. VISSE: The question I take it is facetious? THE WITNESS: Experimental, maybe. MR. VISSE: By mule train? THE WITNESS: Experimental water transport. MR. VISSE: One last question for you, sir. BY MR. VISSE: Q. To give Mr. Levin a chance to state one final rousing objection; during your employment with Certain-teed, do you recall ever having received from Turner and Newall any information regarding the hazard of asbestos or asbestos containing products? MR. LEVIN: Objection. No foundation, calls for speculation, over broad. THE WITNESS: To answer your question, do I ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215)564-5380 Hartman 1 recall any? No. 106 : i 2 3 BY MR. VISSE: , 4 Q. During your employment with Keasbey and Mattison, 5 do you ever recall ever receiving any information from 3 6 Turner and Newall regarding the hazards of asbestos or 7 asbestos containing products? 8 A. 1 don't recall. 9 MR. VISSE: I want to thank you very much i 10 for your patience both with me and Mr. Levin. ! 11 12 (Deposition concluded at 5:45 P.M.) 13 14 MR. VISSE: Let's make the contract Exhibit 15 Number 5. 16 17 (Plaintiffs Exhibit 5 marked for identification.) 18 19 MR. LEVIN: Counsel from Mr. Clapper's 20 office, who represents probably a staggering 21 number of longshore plaintiffs in the Bay Area 22 litigation has been here and asked as many 23 questions as he wanted to ask of both Mr. Hartman 24 and Mr. Striegel, and the deposition is now 25 concluded, and it should be obvious to anyone ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215) 564-53 80 Hartman 107 1 reading this that he had the identical motive and 2 opportunity to ask questions as any other 3 plaintiff's attorney would, and we would hope 4 that other plaintiff's counsel reading this 5 deposition would be satisfied with Mr. Visse's 6 thorough examination of both witnesses. 7 MR. V1SSE: Since Mr. Levin has taken the 8 opportunity, I would like to add as well, that I 9 made strenuous efforts to convince Mr. Levin to 10 allow other plaintiff's counsel to Notice in on 11 these depositions, given the fact that all 12 plaintiff's counsel that I'm acquainted with are 13 polite and reasonable people, and that Mr. Levin 14 chose not to permit that involvement, and I urge 15 all counsel to take whatever action they consider 16 necessary to pursue discovery in their cases. 17 MR. LEVIN: All I can say is he obviously 18 didn't try strenuously enough to convince me, 19 because we are both here pursuant to our 20 agreement to have the deposition go forward this 21 way. 22 23 BY MR. LEVIN: 24 Q. Mr. Hartman, of your own personal knowledge, you 25 didn't at any time, acquire any real direct knowledge of ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St.,Phila.,Pa./(215) 564-5380 Hartman 108 1 the inter-relationship of Turner and Newall and Cassiar 2 and Certain-teed and Bell and all of the other companies 3 we've talked about today, is that correct? 4 MR. VISSE: Objection. 5 THE WITNESS: No. 6 MR. VISSE: Before you answer the question, 7 I'll just state an objection, vague and ambiguous 8 and leading. 9 THE WITNESS: I did not have any formal 10 education in that field from anybody. 11 MR. LEVIN: Okay. Thank you. 12 13 THE COURT REPORTER: Mr. Visse, you will be 14 getting the original and one copy, correct? 15 MR. VISSE: Yes, thank you. 16 MR. LEVIN: Yes, I would like a copy. 17 THE COURT REPORTER: Would you like that on 18 a regular or expedited basis? 19 MR. LEVIN: How is Mr. Visse getting it? 20 THE COURT REPORTER: On an expedited basis. 21 MR. LEVIN: Then, that is how I want to get 22 my copy. Thank you. 23 THE COURT REPORTER: Thank you. 24 25 ALL POINTS REPORTING/1229 Chestnut St. , Phila. ,Pa./( 215) 564-53 80 \ -C-E-R-T- I-F-I-C-A- T- I-O-NI, Carol L. Skipper, do hereby certify that the testimony and proceedings in the foregoing matter taken on January 13, 1987, are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me, and that pages 1 to 108, inclusive, of this testimony are a true and correct transcript of the same. Court Reporter and Notary Public Commonwealth of Pennsylvania THE FOREGOING CERTIFICATION OF THIS TRANSCRIPT DOES NOT APPLY TO ANY REPRODUCTION OF THE SAME BY ANY MEANS 3) j UNLESS UNDER THE DIRECT CONTROL AND/OR SUPERVISION OF THB CERTIFYING REPORTER. \ i!