Document 0q9DvJjndekMJJQN5eOnpnrMd
-t
A *
DHAULIC 2NSTITDTE
122 EAST 4?nd STREET NEW TORK, N. . 10012
Dear Sir:
Supplementing my letters of June l6 and June 23#
1967> ve have received additional comments from Delaval
Turbine Inc, on
MIL-P-18472D,
aid MID-P-l6682Ar'---------------
A copy of these comments is attached hereto, and ve vould appreciate your Including these vith the comments mailed to you previously.
Very truly yours.
/ Frank P. Anderson Secretary
FrAjeu
Enclosure cc:(iiboo) Committee to Reviev Military Specifications
Institute Member Companies and Hon-Member Companies on Yi&vy Qualified Products list for Centrifugal Pumps
SLM00126
DE IAVAL TURBINE INC. - E. L. Fay, Jr.
Enclosure (A) Serial EF-97
MH.-P-17639B, 1 Oct., 1966
Oct. 19, 1967
3.2.11.3
3.2.16.2 1 3.2.19
t
...Mounting bolts for fastening the equipment shall conform to grade 2 of MIL-B-857.
De Laval Comments:
(1) Note that Table 1 - "Studs, bolts, nuts, and washers (submarine and Burfsce ships)" calles for nickel copper alloy, however, 3.2.11.3 requires mounting boltB of grade 2 of MEL-B-857, which is carbon steed. This appears to be contradictory. We request clarification.
(2) See also following comment on Table 1 Note 5.
Flexible coupling hubs ... For pump shafts one inch diameter and larger the hubs shall be fitted on a taper with keys parallel to the taper.
De level Comment:
Our standard practice is to have keys parallel to the shaft center line. We request 3.2.16.2 be revised to indicate this is acceptable.
Threaded parts such as bolts, studs, and nuts shall conform to Handbook H-28 ...
De Laval Comments:
We propose this be revised to Indicate:
(1) Class 5 Interference fits shall conform to ASA Publication B1.12 in lieu of interference fit specified in Handbook H-28, Studs may be bottomed in lieu of using Class 5 fit; however, details of bottoming shall be approved by the NAVSEC.
(2) For fasteners 1 inch diameter and larger, the eight thread series shall be used wherever practicable.
(3) Stud bolts (one nut) may be used. Where bottoming of stud bolt occurs, the thread fit shall be Class 2A or Class 3A. Class 5 interference fits shall not be bottomed.
The proposed is taken from M3X-T-17600C (Main Propulsion Turbines) paragraphs 3.19.2.3, 3.19.1.3, 3.19.3.7, and ve feel it should also be applicable to the subject pumps.
SLM00127
2- -
3.2.21
3.5 to 3.5,7.4 3,6,1
Welding shall ha in accordance with KtL-STD-278.
De laval Comments:
Review of MHvSTD-278 has raised many questions. In particular, WIL-STD-278 says:
(a) Far. 6.1 - "... Fillet welds in machinery and pressures subject to dynamic and alternating bending stresses shall be ground smooth or where approved by the Bureau or agency concerned, a wash pass weld may be used."
(b) Par. 6.2 - "Machinery Class M - This classification includes all welded assemblies of plate, forgings and castings joined completely or partially by welding for use as dynamically loaded or moving machinery parts."
(c) Par. 6,2.4.1 - "Radiographic inspection - All strength welds in gears, rotors, shafts, pumps, and machinery subjected to fatigue or impact shall be radiographed..."
These requirements are vague. We feel the above underlined words need definition to clearly indicate to what pump parts, if any, these requirements apply.
Drawings ... HTL-D-963
Da Laval Comments
The report on Joint Conference, March 16, 1967, states the Navy indicated that HIL-D-IOOO and MH^D-1000/2 supersede MIL-D-963H.
Before making comments on KIL-D-100G and MIL-D-1000/2, ve request the opportunity to review the revision to MIh-P-17639 invoking these specifications, in order to determine whether they will be invoked completely or partially, with or without modification or additional requirements.
Manuals ... Unless otherwise specified (see 6.1) manuals shall include pump, driver, controls and all appurtenances and all applicable drawings.
De Laval Cowaenta:
(1) The only reference to manuals in 6.1 is item (o) Quantity of manuals required.
We request the following be added to 6.1:
Whether or not manuals shall Include pump, driver, controls and all appurtenance and all applicable drawings (see 3.6.1).
1
'
SLM00128
3.6,1 4,4.1
4,4.1.3 4.4,1.6
3
(2) tf feel Chat when Che pump manufacturer la not furnishing the driver, controls, appurtenances, it should not be required that manuals to be furnished by the pump manufacturer include these items.
... Completed fart Examination Check List (see 4.3.2) shall be furnished in duplicate to the cognisant Government quality assurance office and to the procuring agency.
De Laval Comment:
Our quality control system makes available all the Information required by 4.3.1, but not in the tabulated form called the "Completed Parts Examination Check List."
We request that, in lieu of requiring preparation and furnishing of this list, it bs required that records of the information sped** fled in 4.3.1 be made available for the procuring agency and the Government Inspector. This request agrees with 4.3.1, last sentence.
Overspeed test - vibration
De Laval Comment:
The permissible vibration Indicated in the acceptance criteria la too stringent at leer speeds. It should bs considered a function of speed.
Note that the Hydraulic Institute has recently issued a curve indi cating this relationship.
Radiography ~ When specified in the contract or order, centrifugal pump casings for submarine application shall be 100 percent radio graphed in accordance with HIL-STD-271 in the areas which act as pressure boundaries. The contractor shall indicate on drawings submitted, to the procuring agency, for approval, the area to be radiographed ...
De Laval Comment:
We feel the extent of radiographic coverage required may be exces sive and unwarranted depending on the application and pressure in volved, and we request it be deleted from 4*4.1.6 and included in tbs Ordering Data when radiography is specified, (see 6.1 item <cc)).
SLM00129
-4-
4.4.3.2.3 6.2
The unit shall be counted on the Bhock machine or barge essentially identical to the actual shipboard Installation.
The procuring agency will furnish the supplier a drawing of the shipboard mounting arrangement...
Pe Laval Comment:
These requirements appear to be contradictory to 4.4.3 which classifies the shock test as a design evaluation test required for one pump of each type, design, and site - not for each contract or order with additional specified shock test requirements or change in shipboard installation. We request clarification.
Do 4.4.3.2 and 4.4.3.2.3 infer that the shock test may have to he redone wherever additional shock test requirements are specified or there is a change in actual shipboard installation? If so, this
must be made known to the pump manufacturer at the proposal stage*
Table X note 5 - Bolt, stud, and nut design shall he in accordance with KIL-B-857.
Dc Laval Comment;
We request the addition of MH-S-1222 as acceptable for stud and nut design.
This specification is Invoked for the following, and we see no reason why it should not also be acceptable for the subject pumps.
Pumps, Centrifugal, Boiler Feed Main Propulsion Turbines Auxiliary Turbines Main Propulsion Gears
MIL-P-17881 MIL-T-17600 MIL-T-17523 MIL-G-17859
SLM00130
DE LAVAL TURBINE INC. - E. L. Fay, Jr.
Oct. 19, 1967
Enclosure (B)
Serial EE-97
MIL-P-17881 B and Amend. 2, 5 Dec., 1966
3.3.10.5 3.4.1.2
3.4.1.3
... The (flexible coupling) bubo shall be fitted on a taper with keys parallel to the taper.
Da Laval Comment:
Our standard practice Is to have keys parallel to the shaft center line. We request 3.2.16.2 be revised to indicate this is acceptable.
Welding shall be in accordance with MIL-STD-278.
Da Laval Comment:
Review of MZL-STD-278 has raised many questions. In particular, HIL-STD-278 says:
(a) Far. 6.1 ... "Fillet welds in machinery and pressure vessels subject to dynamic and alternating bending stresses shall be ground smooth or where approved by the Bureau or agency concerned, a wash pass weld may be used."
(b) Far. 6.2 - "Machinery Class M - This classification includes all welded assemblies of plate, forgings and castings joined completely or partially by welding for use as dynamically loaded or moving machinery parts."
(c) Par. 6.2.4.1 - "Radiographic inspection - All strength welds in gears, rotors, shafts, pimps and machinery subjected to fatigue or impact shall be radiographed ..."
These requirements are vague.
We feel the above underlined words need definition to dearly indicate to what pump parts, if any, these requirements apply*
Threaded parts such as bolts, studs, and nuts shall conform to Handbook H-28... The setting end of studs shall be class 5 fit and the nut end shall be class 3 fit.
De Laval Comments:
We propose that this be revised Co indicate:
(1) Class 5 interference fits shall conform to ASA Publication B 1.12 in lieu of interference fit thread specified in Hand book H-28. Studs may be bottomed in lieu of using Class 5 fit; however, details of bottoming shall be approved by the NAVSEC.
SLM00131
The unit shall be mounted on the shock machine or barge essentially Identical to the actual shipboard installation. The procuring agency will furnish the supplier a drawing of the shipboard mounting arrange ment De Laval Comment: These requirements appear to be contradictory to 4.4.3 which classifies the shock test as a design evaluation test required for one pmttp of each type, design and siae - not for each contract or order with additional specified shock teat requirements or change in shipboard installation. We request clarification. Do 4.4.3.2 and 4.4.3.2.3 infer that the shock test may have to be redone whenever additional shock test requirements are speci fied or there la a change in actual shipboard installation? If so, this must be made known to the pump manufacturer at the proposal stage. Table 1 - Last Item - casing bolts, studs, nuts 7/ - KH-S-1222 De Laval Comment; Note 7 says: Bolts, studs, and nuts design shall be in accordance with HHr-B-857. This appears contradictory since HJX-S-1222 specifies design of studs and nuts* We request Table I be revised to Indicate that Note 7 ia not applicable to studs and nuts conforming to HZL-S-1222.
SLMQ0132
DE LAVAL TURBINE INC. - E. L. Fay, Jr.
Oct. 19, I96T
Enclosure (C) Serial EF-97
MIL-P-18472P, 1 Oct., 1966
... Hotmting bolta for fastening the equipment shall conform to grade 2 of MEL-B-857.
Pa Laval Comments:
(1) Note that grade 2 of MIL-B-857 is carbon steel. Ia this Intended?
(2) See also following comment on Table 1 Note 4
Welding shall be in accordance with MIL-STD-278
Da Laval Comment:
Review of MIIr-STD~278 raised many questions.
In particular MIL-STP-278 says:
(a) Par. 6.1 - "...Fillet welds in machinery and pressure vessels subject to dynamic and alternating bending stresses shall be ground smooth or where approved by the Bureau or agency concerned, a wash pass weld may be used."
(b) Par. 6.2 - "Machinery Class M - Thia classification includes all welded assemblies of plate, forgings and castings Joined completely or partially by welding for use as dynamically loaded or moving machinery parts.
(c) Par. 6.2.4.1 - "Radiographic inspection - All strength welds in gears, rotors, shafts, pumps and machinery subjected to fatigue or impact shall he radiographed.
These requirements are vague. We feel that die underlined words need definition to clearly indicate to what pump parts, if any, these requirements apply.
Threaded parts such as bolts, studs, and nuts shall conform to Handbook H-28.
Pe Laval Comments:
We propose thia be revised to indicate:
(1) Class 5 interference fits shall conform to ASA Publication B 1.12 in lieu of interference fit thread specified in Handbook 9-28. Studs may be bottomed in lieu of using Class 5 fit; however, details of bottoming shall be approved by the NAVSEC.
SLM00133
- 2-
3,4.7
3.5.12.2 3.6 to 3.6.7.5
3,9,1
(2) For fasteners 1 inch diameter and larger, the eight thread series shall be used wherever practicable.
(3) Stud bolts (one nut) nay be used. Where bottoming of stud bolt occurs, the thread fit shall be Class 2A or Class 3A. Class 5 interference fits shall not be bottomed.
The proposed is taken from KClr'T-17600C (Hain Propulsion Turbines) paragraphs 3.19.2,3, 3.19.1.3, 3.19.3.7, and ve feel It should also be applicable to the subject pumps.
Flexible coupling hubs... For pump shafts one inch diameter and larger the hubs shall be fitted on a taper with keys parallel to the taper.
De Laval Comment:
Our standard practice is to have keys parallel to the shaft center line. We request 3.5.12.2 be revised to Indicate this is acceptable.
Drawings ... MH-D-963
De Laval Commenti
The report on Joint Conference, March 16, 1967, states the Navy indicated that MXL-D-1000 and MH-D-100Q/2 supersedes MIL-D-963.
Before making comments on HIL-D-1000 and MH-D-1000/2, ve request the opportunity to review the revision to MIL-P-18472 invoking these specifications, in order to determine whether they will be invoked completely or partially, wlthoor without modification or additional requirements*
... Unless otherwise specified (see 6.1) manuals shall include pump, driver, controls, and all appurtenances and all applicable drawings.
De Laval Comments:
(1) The only reference to manuals in 6.1 is item (q) Manuals (quantity and distribution) (see 3.9.6).
We request the following be added to 6.1:
Whether or not manuals shall Include pump driver, controls, and all appurtenances and all applicable drawings (see 3.9.1).
(2) We feel that when the pump manufacturer is not furnishing the driver, controls, appurtenances, it should not be required that manuals to be furnished by the pump manufacturer include these items.
!
j
i
SLM00134
3
4.4.1
4.4.1.3 4.4.3 4.4.3.1.4
... Completed Part Examination Check Mat (see 4.3.2) shall be furnished in duplicate to the cognizant Government quality assur ance office and to the procuring agency.
Do Laval Comment:
Our quality control system makes available all the information required by 4.3.1, but not in the tabulated fora called the "Completed Parts Examination Check List."
We request that, in lieu of requiring preparation and furnishing of this list. It be required that records of the information specified in 4.3.1 be made available for the procuring agency and the Government inspector. This request agrees with 4.1.3, last sentence.
Overspeed test - vibration
De Laval Comment:
The permissible vibration indicated in the acceptance criteria is too stringent at low speeds. It should be considered a function of speed.
Note that the Hydraulic Institute has recently Issued a curve indicating this relationship.
Design evaluation tests - One pump of each type, design, and else comnlete with the driver and all appurtenances and controls shall successfully undergo the herein specified design evaluation test. Separata design evaluation tests of the pump proper and the driver proper are not acceptable.
De Laval Comment:
This means new design evaluation tests are required wherever actual driver is changed. This requirement is excessive to the pump manufacturer.
The pump shall be under continuous surveillance throughout the duration of the endurance teat ... Data shall he collected and the pump Inspected at four hour Intervals ..
De Laval Comment:
Continuous surveillance and collection of data at four hour inter vals are excessive and unwarranted requirements. Collection of data at the beginning and end of the test should be sufficient.
SLM00135
4-
4,4.3.2.3 6.2
The unit shall he counted on the shock machine or barge essentially identical to the actual shipboard installation. The procuring agency will furnish the supplier a drawing of the shipboard mounting arrangement...
De Laval Comment:
These requirements appear to be contradictory to 4.4.3 which classi fies Che shock teat as a design evaluation test required for one pump of each type, design, and site - not for each contract or order with additional specified shock test requirements or change in shipboard installation. We request clarification.
Do 4.4.3.2 and 4.4.3.2.3 infer that the shock test may have to he redone whenever additional shock test requirements are specified or there is a change in actual shipboard installation! If so, this must be made known to the pump manufacturer at the proposal stage.
Table I Note 4 - Bolts, studs, and nuts design shall be in accordance with HIL~B-857...
De Laval Comment:
We request the addition of WXL-S-1222 as acceptable for stud and nut design.
This specification la invoked for the following, and we see no reason why It should not also be acceptable for the subject pumps.
Pumps. Centrifugal, Boiler Peed Main Propulsion Turbines Auxiliary Turbines Main Propulsion Gears
HEu-P*-17881 KIL-T-1760G KXL-T-17523 MHr-G-17859
SLM00136
3.2.10 3.2,12
m LffVAL TURBINE INC. - S. L, Fay, Jr.
Enclosure (D) Serial EF-97
MIL-P-18682A, 1 Oct., 1966
Oct. 19, 1967
Threaded parts such as bolts, studs, and nuts shall conform to Handbook B-28...
Pa Laval Comments;
We propose this be revised to indicate:
(1) Class 5 Interference fits shall conform to ASA Publication B1.12 In lieu of Interference fit specified in Handbook H-28. Studs may be bottomed In lieu of using Class S fit; however, details of bottoming shall be approved by the NAVSEC.
<2} For fasteners l inch diameter end larger, the eight thread series shall be used wherever practicable.
(3) Stud bolts (one nut) may be uBed. Where bottoming of stud bolt occurs, the thread fit shall he Class 2A or Class 3A. Class 5 Interference fits shall not be bottomed.
The proposed la taken from KII*-T-17600C (Main Propulsion Tur bines) paragraphs 3.19.2.3, 3.19.1.3, 3.19.3.7, and we feel it should also be applicable to the subject pumps.
Welding shall be in accordance with MIL-STD-278...
De Laval Comaent:
Review of MHs-STD-278 has raised many questions.
In particular MILr-STD-278 says:
(a) Par. 6.1 - "...Fillet welds In machinery and pressure vessels subject to dynamic end alternating bending stresses shall be ground smooth or where approved by the Bureau or agency con cerned, a wash pass weld may be used.
(b) Par. 6.2 - "Machinery Class M - This classification Includes all welded assemblies of plate, forginings, and castings Joined completely or partially by welding for use as dynamically loaded or moving machinery parts."
(c) Par. 6.2.4.1 - "Radiographic inspection - All strength welds In gears, rotors, shafts, pumpB and machinery subjected to fatigue or impact shall be radiographed.
These requirements are vague. We feel die underlined words need definition to clearly indicate to what pump parts, if any, these requirements apply.
SLM00137
3.3.3.3
3.3.9.3 .6
3.6.7.3 3.7.1
2
Bolts, studs, and nuts (easing) shall he designed In accordance with KXL-B-857.
Do Laval Comment:
See also Table I note 4 - Bolts, studs, snd nuts design shall be in accordance with KIL-B-857.
Ve request the addition of tCH-5-1222 as acceptable for stud and nut design. This specification la invoked for the following, and ve see no reason why it should not also be acceptable for the sub ject pumps.
Pumps, Centrifugal, Boiler Feed Main Propulsion Turbines
Auxiliary Turbines Main Propulsion Gears
HIk-P-17881 HILr-T-17600
KEL-T-17523 MIL-G-17859
... The (flexible coupling) hubs shall be fitted on a taper with keys parallel to the taper.
De Laval Comment:
Our standard practice is to have keys parallel to the shaft center line. We request 3.3.9.3 be revised to indicate this is acceptable.
Drawings ... KEL-D-963
De Laval Comment!
The report on Joist Conference, March 16, 1967, states the Wavy indicated that KIL-D-IOOO and HXL-D-1000/2 supersede MIL-D-963.
Before Baking comments on M3X-D-10Q0 and
1000/2 werequest
the opportunity to review the revision to MIL-P-18682 invoking
these specifications. In order to determine whether they will be
invoked completely or partially, with or without modification or
additional requirements.
... Unless otherwise specified (see 6.1) manuals shall Include pump driver, controls and all appurtenances and all applicable drawings
Da Laval Comment:
(1) The only reference to manuals in 6.1 is Item (p) Manuals (quantity and distribution) (see 3.7.6).
We request the following be added to 6.1:
Whether or not manuals shall include pump driver, controls and all appurtenances and all applicable drawings (see 3.7.1).
rt W
SLM00138
3.7.1 4.4.1
4.4.1.6
4.4.2.3
(2) We feel chat when the pump manufacturer 1b not furnishing the driver, controls, appurtenances, it should not be required that manuals to be furnished by the pusq> manu facturer include these items.
... Completed Part Examination Check List (See 4.3.2) shall be furnished in duplicate to the cognisant Government quality assur ance office and to the produring agency.
Do Laval Comment;
Our quality control system makes available all the information required by 4.3.1, but not in the tabulated form called the "Completed Parts Examination Check List."
We request that, in lieu of requiring preparation and furnishing of this list, it be required that records of the information specified in 4.3.1 be made available for the procuring agency and the Government Inspector. This request agrees with 4.1.3, last sentence.
All pump casings for submarine application shall be radiographed in accordance with KtL-STD-271 in those areas which act as pressure boundaries. The supplier shall indicate on drawings submitted to the procuring agency for approval, the areas to be radiographed...
Da Laval Comments:
(1) Referring to 4.4.1 <f) we request "When specified In the contract or order (see 6.1)" be prefixed to 4.4.1*6.
(2) We feel that requiring complete radiographic coverage "In those areas which act as pressure boundaries" surf be exces sive and unwarranted depending on the application and the pressure involved. We request these words be deleted from 4.4.1.6 end the extent of radiographic coverage be included in the Ordering Data when radiography Is specified.
Acceptance criteria, vibration
De Laval Comment:
The permissible vibration indicated In the acceptance criteria is coo stringent at low speeds. It should be considered a func tion of speed.
Note that the Hydraulics Institute has recently Issued a curve indicating this relationship.
SLM00139
-A-
Design evaluation tests - One pump of each type, design and else complete vlth the driver and all appurtenances and controls shall successfully undergo the herein specified design evaluation test. Separate design evaluation teats of the pump proper and the driver proper are not acceptable... De Laval Comment: This means new design evaluation testa are required whenever actual driver is changed. This requirement is excessive to the pump manu facturer. The pump shall he under continuous surveillance throughout the duration of the endurance test... Data shall be collected and the pump inspected at four hour Intervals ... De Laval Comment: Continuous surveillance and collection of data at four hour Intervals are excessive and unwarranted requirements. Collection of data at the beginning and end of the test should he sufficient. The unit shall be mounted on the shock machine or barge essentially Identical to the actual shipboard Installation. The procuring agency will furnish the supplier & drawing of the shipboard mounting arrangement... De Laval Comment? These requirements appear to be contradictory to 4.4.3 which classifies the shock test as a design evaluation test required for one pump of each type, design and alsa - not for each contract or order with additional specified shock teat requirements or change in shipboard installation. tfe request clarification. Do 4.4.3.2 and 4.4.3.2.3 Infer that the shock test may have to be done whenever additional shock test requirements are specified or there is a change In actual shipboard Installation? If so, this must be made known to the pump manufacturer at the proposal stage.
SLM00140
T>r>f-rvnt.len Manager T o Mayflever Hotel
Ava. at DeSalea Street D. C.
.J
^|A
{ \A/
-v 5
-*Op,_,
tHhjeot: Meetir.gs - Itfiraulic Institute Honda;,- mr Pesday, November 13-1** > 19&7
%
Dear Sir:
In connect ion with the meetings of the Hydraulic Institute on Monday end ?uced:y, November 13-14, 1967, please reserve acconaaodat:on for ms, aa follows:
Pate of Arrival: _______________________
Dote of Departure: >
lype of Doom: ______________.
Please confirm this reservation directly to me and send one cony to Mr. Prank P. Anderson, 122 East 42nd Street, Ifew York, I?ev lark, for his records.
Very truly yours,
- - JAMBS A. DONOHUE.. .-V. SAME
K. Y, DAVIT*0 CCKMWt (.COMPANY
7 rare strkkt, 3r YORK, g.t.
ADDRESS
DA?S: PC?. 24, 1967
I do not require hotel accommodations; however, I will PE"T will not / J (check one) attend the Hydraulic Institute Meetings on November 13-14, 19^7.
S' s;
C\
Date: OCT,24, 1947
M. T. DAVIDSC COKP&KT Company
SLM00141