Document yr405404D5nK0BLxVx7EvM046

ORIGINAL IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS PHILADELPHIA COUNTY IN RE: PAOLI RAILROAD YARD ) PC B LITIGATION, ) ) ) ) MASTER FILE ) NO. 90-0609-C-6 DEPOSITION OF R. EMMET KELLY, M.D. DECEMBER 11, 1990 GORE REPORTING COMPANY 408 OLIVE STREET ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 241-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000029436 1 IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS 2 PHILADELPHIA COUNTY 3 4 5 IN RE: PAOLI RAILROAD YARD 6 PCB LITIGATION, ) 7) 8 ) MASTER FILE 9 ) NO . 10 1 1 Deposition of R. EMMET KELLY, 1 2 M.D., taken on behalf of the Plaintiffs, at 1 3 the offices of Brown, James & Rabbitt, 705 1 4 Olive Street, in the City, of St. Louis, 1 5 State of Missouri, on the 11th day of 1 6 December, 1990 before Ronald A. Gore, 1 7 Registered Professional Reporter and Notary 1 8 Public. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 2 WATER PCB-SD0000029437 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: 2 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 4 Mr. Arnold E. Cohen 5 Klehr, Harrison, Harvey, 6 Branzburg & Ellers 7 1401 Walnut Street 8 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 9 19 10 2 10 1 1 Mr. Joseph C. Kohn 1 2 Kohn, Savett, Klein & Graf 1 3 2400 One Reading Center 1 4 1101 Market Street 1 5 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 1 6 19 10 7 1 7 FOR THE DEFENDANT MONSANTO 1 8 COMPANY: 1 9 Mr. Michael H. Malin 2 0 White & Williams 2 1 One Liberty Place 2 2 Suite 1800 2 3 1650 Market Street 2 4 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 2 5 19103-7301 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 3 WATER PCB-SD0000029438 1 FOR THE DEFENDANT GENERAL ELECTRIC 2 COMPANY : 3 Mr. Robert J. Shaughnessy 4 Willi ams & Connolly 5 Hill Building 6 839 Seventeenth Street, N.W. 7 Washington, D.C. 20006 8 FOR THE DEFENDANT THE BUDD 9 COMPANY : 1 0 Mr. R. Thomas McLaughlin 1 1 Kelly, McLaughlin & Foster 1 2 1700 Atlantic Building 1 3 260 Broad Street 1 4 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 1 5 19 10 2 1 6 FOR THE DEFENDANT AMTRAK: 1 7 Ms. Suzanne H. Gross 1 8 Margolis, Edelstein, 1 9 Scherlis, Sarowitz & Kraemer 2 0 The Curtis Center 2 1 Fourth Floor 2 2 Independence Square West 2 3 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 2 4 19106-3304 2 5 FOR THE DEFENDANT CONSOLIDATED GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 4 WATER PCB-SD0000029439 1 RAIL: 2 Ms . Mary C . Smith 3 Pepper, Hamilton & Scheetz 4 3000 Two Logan Square 5 18th and Arch Street 6 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 7 19 10 9 8 FOR THE DEFENDANTS SOUTHEASTERN 9 PENNSYLVANIA TRANSPORTATION 1 0 AUTHORITY AND THE PENN CENTRAL 1 1 CORPORATION: 1 2 Mr. Roger F . Cox 1 3 Blank, Rome, Comisky & 1 4 McCauley 1 5 1200 Four Penn Center Plaza 1 6 Philadelph i a , Pennsylvania 1 7 19 10 3 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 5 WATER PCB-SD0000029440 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 1 sl 19 I 20 21 22 23 24 25 INDEX Examination by Mr. Cohen EXHIBITS Kelly Exhibit 1 Kelly Exhibit 2 Kelly Exhibit 3 4 PAGE 7 25 7 268 27 4 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 6 WATER PCB-SD0000029441 1 R . EMMET KELLY, M.D. 2 of lawful age, having been first duly sworn 3 to testify the truth, the whole truth, and 4 nothing but the truth in the case 5 aforesaid, deposes and says in reply to 6 oral interrogatories propounded as follows, 7 to-wit : 8 EXAMINATION 9 QUESTIONS BY MR. COHEN: 1 0 MR. MALIN: Mr. Cohen, I'd like 1 1 to give you a copy of Dr. Kelly's 1 2 curriculum vitae, it may help conserve the 1 3 preliminary matters. 1 4 MR. COHEN: Let the record 1 5 reflect I've been handed a document styled 1 6 curriculum vitae for R. Emmet Kelly, M.D.. 1 7 It's 10:04, in whatever time zone we're 1 8 presently located, this is the first time 1 9 I've been given this document, perhaps if 2 0 it would have been given somewhat in 2 1 advance of the deposition, it might have 2 2 saved time. Under these circumstances, is 2 3 there any problem regarding the 2 4 availability of the witness, Mr. Malin, 2 5 during the course of the day, any time GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 7 WATER PCB-SD0000029442 1 restrictions or anything like that? 2 MR. MALIN: I'd just like to put 3 on the record, yes, Dr. Kelly is 81 years 4 of age, and he has a tendency to get 5 somewhat tired, and that tiredness is not 6 good for him, so we may be restricted to a 7 five or six hour deposition, it's going to 8 depend on how Dr. Kelly feels. But we 9 don't want to get Dr. Kelly tired. He will 1 0 let us know, we'll be able to ascertain 1 1 that. Is that correct. Dr. Kelly? 1 2 A. That's correct. 13 MR. COHEN: Certainly, Doctor, in 1 4 deference to whatever your own personal 1 5 circumstances are, please indicate to Mr. 1 6 Malin at any time you'd like to stop the 1 7 proceedings, whether on a temporary basis 1 8 or suspend the proceedings for the day, 1 9 we'll certainly do everything we can to 2 0 honor your request. 2 1 A. Thank you. 2 2 Mr. Me Laughlin: Just off the 2 3 record. 24 MR. COHEN: Just one second. I 25 do,however, understand. Doctor, that in GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 8 WATER PCB-SD0000029443 1 the event that we suspend these proceedings 2 prior to their conclusion today, that you 3 will be available to continue tomorrow? 4 A. Yes, that's correct. 5 MR. COHEN: Thank you sir. 6 (Discussion off the record). 7 MR. MALIN: Stipulations? 8 MR. COHEN: What stipulations do 9 you want? 1 0 MR. MALIN: I'd like the witness 1 1 to sign the deposition. 1 2 MR. COHEN: Read and sign? 1 3 MR. MALIN: Read and sign. Waive 1 4 a 1 1 object ions except a s t o the f o r m 15 qu e s t i o n s , and privil e g e d This i s 1 6 d i scovery deposition. n e v e r waive 1 7 pr i v i 1 e g e . 1 8 MR . COHEN : Do y o u want t o 1 9 m e what pr ivilege you ' r e n o t w a i v i n g 2 0 i f you r a i s e the -- 2 1 MR. MALIN: N e v e r waive 22 pr i v i 1 e g e . All objec t i o n s except a s 2 3 form of th e question w a i v e d , all pri 2 4 will be reserved. 2 5 (Discussion off the record). GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOUR I 9 WATER PCB-SD0000029444 1 M R . COHEN Dr. Kelly, I have 2 this document in front of me that is styled 3 curriculum vitae. Is it fair to say that 4 the address reflected on that document, 5 which is 665 South Skinker, S-k-i-n-k-e-r, 6 is your address? 7 A . That is correct. 8 Q And that's street, road? 9 A . Boulevard. 1 0 Q And that is in the City of St. 1 1 Louis? 1 2 A . That's correct. 1 3 Q And that is where you presently 1 4 res i d e ? 1 5 A . That is correct. 1 6 Q I gather, sir, that you have had 1 7 occasion to give depositions in the past? 1 8 A . Yes, I have. 1 9 Q You are familiar with the 2 0 proceedings here today? 2 1 A . Yes, I am. 2 2 Q Do you require any explanation of 2 3 the proceedings here today? 2 4 A. No, I do not. 2 5 Q. Doctor, in the course of these GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 WATER PCB-SD0000029445 1 proceedings, I am going to assume that 2 every question you answer was a question 3 that you both heard and understood; is that 4 fair with you. agreeable to you? 5 A . That is correc t . 6 Q . And in the eve nt I do ask you a 7 question and I misuse a technical term, 8 that you understand that I have misused, I 9 am a layman, of course, you will indicate 1 0 to me that you understand that I have 1 1 used that term; will you do that? 1 2 A . Yes, I wi 1 1 . 1 3 Q . Your date of birth is November 1 4 14, 1909? 1 5 A. That is correct. 1 6 Q. And you were born in the city of 1 7 St. Louis? 1 8 A. Yes, sir. 1 9 Q. And have you resided here your 2 0 entire life? 2 1 A. With the exception of three and a 2 2 half years in the service. 23 Q . And that informat ion is a 1 s 2 4 reflected here on your curr i c u 1 u m v i t 2 5 A . Yes, sir. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 11 WATER PCB-SD0000029446 1 Q. You are licensed as a medical 2 doctor? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Are you presentlylicensed? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. How long have you been licensed? 7 A. Since 1932. 8 Q. Has that license ever been 9 suspended or revoked in any way? 1 0 A . No , it has not. 1 1 Q . Are you licensed in any o t h 1 2 jurisdictions other than the State of 1 3 Illinois? 1 4 A . And Missouri . 1 5 Q . I'm sorry. You're right. 1 6 Missouri and Illinois? 1 7 A. Correct. 1 8 Q. Any others? 1 9 A. I have been in Arizona, but I 2 0 droppedthat. 2 1 Q. How long ago? 2 2 A. Ten years. 2 3 Q. Personal reasons for dropping it? 2 4 A. Well, it was personal because I 2 5 wanted to get a license in a sun belt GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 WATER PCB-SD0000029447 1 country. 2 Q State? 3 A . State. And not -- having had 4 coronary a t that time. I decided I didn 5 need one i n A r i z o n a , s o I dropped it. 6 Q. Have you ever applied for 7 reinstatement of that licensure in Arizona? 8 A. No, I have not. 9 Q. How is your health today, sir; 1 0 are you feeling well? 1 1 A. Yes. Thank you. 1 2 Q. Are you under any medications or 1 3 anything like that that affectsyour 1 4 ability to understand andrespond to these 1 5 proceedings today? 1 6 A . No, sir. 1 7 Q. We had a statement earlier that 1 8 in the event that you become tired and 1 9 would like to take a break or stop for the 2 0 day, you'll indicate that information to 2 1 us? 22 A. Yes. Thank you. 2 3 Q. Are you presently employed? 2 4 A. I am self-employed. 2 5 Q. In what capacity, sir? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOUR I 13 WATER PCB-SD0000029448 1 A. As a physician I am also 2 employed as a consultant to the 3 Barnes-Su tter Health Ser vice. 4 Q . That ' s R-a-r-n - e - s ? 5 A . That is correc t. S-u-t-t-e-r. 6 Q Health -- 7 A . Service. 8 Q And what is th e business of the 9 Barnes-Su tter Health Ser vice? 1 0 A . It is a clinic that handles 1 1 mostly oc cupational and some 1 2 non-occup ational conditi o n s . 1 3 Q Where is Barne s-Sutter Health 1 4 Service 1 o c a t e d ? 1 5 A . 801 Locust, St . Louis, Missouri, 1 6 Q How long have you been associated 1 7 as a cons ultant with Bar nes-Sutter Health 1 8 Service? 1 9 A. Since1975. 20 Q. Did you have anyprior 2 1 relationship as aconsultant, an employee 2 2 or otherwise with the Barnes-Sutter Health 2 3 Service prior to 1975? 2 4 A. 1970 what? 25 Q. '5. Isn't that when you said you GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 14 WATER PCB-SD0000029449 1 started w i th them? 2 A . Hhe n you s a y prior relationship, 3 I knew who t h e y we r e , they knew who I was, 4 but I d i d not have a n y financial or 5 profess ion a 1 assoc i a t ion with them. 6 Q. You did not provide any 7 professional services , whether as a 8 consultant or otherwi se, for that 9 organization? 1 0 A. For that ti me, no, sir. 1 1 Q . Is there an y connection, to your 1 2 knowledge, between th e Barnes-Sutter Health 1 3 Service and any party associated with this 1 4 litigation? 1 5 A . Conceivably , they may see an 1 6 occasion al case from Monsanto as an 1 7 injury. Conceivably, I'm not sure, 1 8 Q When you sa y conceivably, would 1 9 that be strictly on a fee for service 2 0 basis? 2 1 A . Ye s , t h a t s correct. 22 Q S o , the r e s no actual ownership 23 o r eq u i ty o r o t h e r lationship other than 2 4 a pot e n t i a 1 fee f o r ervice arrangement, 25 t h a t y o u ' r e aware 0 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUI S , MISSOURI 15 WATER PCB-SD0000029450 1 A. That is correct. Barnes-Sutter 2 Health Service is completely owned by 3 Barnes Hospital, which is the teaching 4 facility at Washington University Medical 5 School in St. Louis. 6 Q. Any relationship between either 7 the Barnes Hospital and any of the parties 8 to this litigation, or the medical school 9 that you just referred to and any party to 1 0 this litigation, to your knowledge? 1 1 A. It may be that some Monsanto 1 2 executive may be on the board of trustees 1 3 of Barnes Hospital, I do not know. But 1 4 that might very well happen. I know they're 1 5 on the board of trustees of Washington 1 6 University. 1 7 Q. Do you know which ones in 1 8 particular are on the board of Washington 1 9 University? 2 0 A. No. I'm not completely certain 2 1 if one is, but there usually is somebody 22 from Monsanto. After all, they're both 23 relatively large institutions in St. Louis. 2 4 Q. Now, you are also in the private 25 practice of medicine? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 WATER PCB-SD0000029451 1 A . Not in the sense that's usu a 1 1 Y 2 referred to as a private practice. I s e e 3 an occasi o n a 1 case that may have some 4 occupatio n a 1 c onnection, s uch as, doe s t h i 5 man suffe r fro m lead poiso ning, does t h i s 6 man have s u f f i cient heart disease tha t h e 7 cannot wo r k , i n that capac it y . Not t o o 8 frequent. I a Iso do some examination s for 9 -- in leg a 1 c a s e s . 1 0 Q - So, you do some consulting i n a 1 1 forensic conte x t ? 1 2 A . That is correct. 1 3 Q And you also occ asionally s e e a 1 4 patient o n a r eferral basi s ? 1 5 A . That is correct. 1 6 Q And is that refe rral from o t h e r 1 7 phys ician s , he alth care pr oviders? 1 8 A . Yes, sir. 1 9 Q Any other circum stance that Y o u 2 0 would see that individual, other than f r o m 2 1 a health care provider or in a forens i c 2 2 setting? 2 3 A . Nell , if you con aider 2 4 Barnes-Sutter, I see an occasional case 2 5 from them. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 WATER PCB-SD0000029452 1 Q. Do you provide any consulting 2 services in any way as a professional, as a 3 medical doctor, on behalf of any party to 4 this litigation? 5 A. Any parties to this litigation? 6 Q. Yes. In other words, does, for 7 example, Monsanto ever refer someone to you 8 for an evaluation of an occupational or 9 non-occupat i ona 1 ailment? 1 0 A. They do not refer individuals to 11 me. They refer cases similar to this, they 1 2 ask my opinion in cases like this. I've 1 3 given depositions on -- at the behest of 1 4 Monsanto in previous cases. 1 5 Q. In other words, you're saying 1 6 that you have been called upon from time to 1 7 time to provide services as a witness and 1 8 testify either on behalf of Monsanto or at 1 9 the request of Monsanto in litigation? 20 A. Well, certainly not on behalf. I 2 1 just testify as to the facts and my 2 2 opinion, medical opinion in the case. 23 Q. So, you have also acted as an 2 4 expert witness regarding allegations of 2 5 injury in an occupational setting in GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 WATER PCB-SD0000029453 1 connection with employees who are making 2 claim against Monsanto, is that fair to 3 say? 4 A . Employees of whom? 5 Q . Monsanto. 6 A . No, I have not. They have not 7 been Mons anto employees. 8 Q In what context, then, wou 1 d 9 Monsanto be asking you to provide 1 0 consulting and testimonial services as a 1 1 witness? 1 2 A. Well, they would have to ask me 1 3 -- they would ask me what Monsanto's 1 4 xperience has been i n the a b s e nee o f 1 5 llness in workers who are - - h a v e w 1 6 anufactured or use d a part i c u 1 a r pro 1 7 in which allegations of harm were alleged, 1 8 they would ask me what my opinion was, 1 9 whether or not these allegations were, in 2 0 my opinion, medically sound. 2 1 Q. Who would ask you that, sir, 2 2 Monsanto or their representatives? 23 A. Monsanto's representatives, yes. 2 4 sir. 25 Q. So, they would ask you to do an GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 WATER PCB-SD0000029454 1 evaluation as to whether any individual who 2 was making a claim against Monsanto could, 3 in your opinion, have a valid claim? 4 A. That is correct. 5 Q. And how do you provide these 6 services; they send you documents and files 7 for your review? 8 A. Yes. Or I consult with one of 9 their legal staff. 1 0 Q. Have they asked you to provide 1 1 such services in this litigation, that is, 1 2 the Paoli rail yard PCB litigation? 1 3 A. You mean concerning the -- they 1 4 have not asked me to -- they have not 1 5 shown me any medical records in this case, 1 6 they have not asked me, as far as up to 1 7 now, for my opinion, whether there is any 1 8 validity to the plaintiff's claims. In 1 9 fact, I don't know what the plaintiff's 2 0 claims are. 2 1 Q. So, in other words, in other 2 2 contexts you are actually asked to make an 2 3 assessment of an individual's claim, in 2 4 this context you have not been so asked? 25 A . I have not been asked, no, sir. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 20 WATER PCB-SD0000029455 1 Q. In other cases you have been 2 asked to make an evaluation of the 3 individual's claim, and then you provide 4 services as an expert witness, is that fair 5 to say? 6 A . T h a t i. s c o r r e c t . 7 Q . So, in o t h e r w ords, they 8 e r v ices s i m i 1 a r 1 y to y o ur offerin 9 e r v ices a s a cons u 11 a n t in a fore 1 0 o n t ext for o t h e r s ? 1 1 A . Th a t is c o r r e c t . But so 1 2 also, I have been asked just as a fact 1 3 witness to explain Monsanto's medical 1 4 program, vis-a-vis the employees who 1 5 manufacture a particular product. 1 6 Q. Now, this rendering of services 1 7 as a consultant in a forensic context, 1 8 whether for Monsanto or otherwise, did that 1 9 experience of yours pre-date your 2 0 termination of employment with Monsanto? 2 1 A . I don't think it did. I can't 2 2 -- I left Monsanto December 1, 1974, and I 2 3 cannot think of any cases, with the 2 4 exception of workmen's compensation cases 2 5 and injuries, or something of that sort. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI . 21 WATER PCB-SD0000029456 1 that I have been called upon to give 2 services in the forensic manner. 3 Certainly, I would -- as medical director, 4 I would have been asked what should we do 5 with this person. I'd say let's get the 6 man treated, or we'll accept this as a 7 compensation case. That has occurred, of 8 course . 9 Q. That occurred during your tenure 1 0 of employment with Monsanto Company? 1 1 A. That is correct. 1 2 Q. Also, if I understand your answer 1 3 correctly, you also had occasion to 1 4 evaluate cases in the worker's compensation 1 5 ext prior to December 1 , 1 9 7 4 ? 1 6 A . That is correct. 1 7 Q And your consult i n g activities in 1 8 the forensic context, whether for Monsanto 1 9 or otherwise, are all subsequent t o * 2 0 December 1, 1974? 2 1 A . Yes, sir. 2 2 Q Can you tell me, order of 23 m a g n i t u d e , how many m a tters in which 2 4 have been a consultant in a forensic 2 5 context? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 22 WATER PCB-SD0000029457 1 A . To whom? 2 Q. Anybody. 3 A. Anybody? 4 Q Anyone, including M o n s a n t o . 5 A . Less than 50, I w o u Id say. 6 Q And that's from D e c e m b e r 1 , ' 7 4 7 through until we sit here i n Dec ember o f 8 19 9 0 ? 9 A . That is correct. 1 0 Q 16 years? 1 1 A . Yes. 1 2 Q And of those 50 o r 1 e s s , c a n you 1 3 tell m e , how many of those m a 11 e r s would 1 4 you have been acting at the b e h e s t of 1 5 Mons anto? 1 6 A . Probably 40. 1 7 Q In every instance w her e you were 1 8 a c t i n g at the behest of Mon s a n t o , was that 1 9 as an expert for the defense? 2 0 A. Sometimes it was just as a fact 2 1 witness. 2 2 Q . All right. Would it have been as 2 3 a fact witness for the defense? 2 4 A. Well, I don't know if I 2 5 understand your terms. I believe the facts GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 23 WATER PCB-SD0000029458 1 are both for the plaintiff and the 2 defendant . I jus t testifi ed as to the 3 facts, I d i d n ' t t estify fo r anyone, 4 Q I u n der stand. W ere you being 5 called as a w i t n e s s by Mon santo? 6 A . That , a gain, I d o n ' t know, 7 Sometimes I w a s s ubpoenaed by the 8 plaintiff 9 Q So, i n the insta nces where you 1 0 were subp o e n a e d a s a w i t n e ss, you received 1 1 whatever the s tan dard subp oena fee is in 1 2 the juris d i c t i o n that was involved? 1 3 A . That ' s correct . 1 4 Q When y o u were c a lied by Monsanto, 1 5 were you paid for your a p p earance? 1 6 A . Yes, I was. 1 7 Q And can you tell me on what basis 1 8 you were compensa ted, time or -- 1 9 A . Time 2 0 Q On what basis wo uld you be 2 1 compensat e d for y our time when Monsanto 2 2 called yo u? 2 3 A . You m e a n what w a s the fee? 2 4 Q What w a s the fee ? I imagine it's 2 5 changed f r o m time to time. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 24 WATER PCB-SD0000029459 1 A It's changed. I would say a t 2 present it's $150.00 an hour. 3 Q. How about in 1975, for exam pie? 4 A . It was probably a h u n d r e d d 0 1 1 a r s 5 an h our 6 Q Now, wo u1d that b e the s a m e i f 7 you w e r e acting a s a fact wit n e s s o r a n 8 e x p e r t witness? 9 A . No . I ' m acting a s a f act w 1 t n e s s 1 0 for $35 .00 a day. 1 1 Q That's when you wer e s u b p o e n a e d ? 1 2 A . I can't say that w a s w hen I was 13 s u b p o e n aed or not . I mean , I t e s t i f i e d as 1 4 a fa c t witness in a M o n s a n t o c a s e f o r seven 1 5 days , a n d it was $35.00 a day , a n d I don't 16 know w h ether I wa s subpoen aed o r n o t . I 1 7 b e 1 i eve I was called on th e b e h e s t o f 1 8 Monsanto, I'm not certain. 1 9 Q. So, Monsanto offered you as a 2 0 witness and your compensation was mer e 1 y 2 1 the statutory witness fee of $35.00 p e r 2 2 day? 2 3 A . That i s correct. 2 4 Q What a r e your arrangements for 2 5 today. can you t e 11 me? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 25 WATER PCB-SD0000029460 1 A. Frankly, I don't know. I would 2 say that it was not -- it all depends on 3 what is happening as far as this deposition 4 is concerned, what questions you're going 5 to ask me. Are you going to ask me as an 6 expert, are you going to ask me as a fact 7 witness? I just don't know. 8 Q. If I ask you some opinion 9 questions and you offer your opinion in 1 0 response to those questions, your fee could 1 1 be a hundred and fifty dollars an hour? 1 2 A. Yes, that's certainly true. 1 3 Q. Who contacted you about appearing 1 4 here today? 1 5 A. Beg your pardon? 1 6 Q. Who contacted you about appearing 1 7 here today? 1 8 A. A paralegal at Monsanto, Miss 1 9 Josephine Niblock. 2 0 Q. Now, Monsanto has had occasion to 21 call upon youto testify in cases involving 2 2 claims against them arising out of alleged 23 exposure to PCB's before, is that correct? 2 4 A. That is correct. 2 5 Q . I think you testified in the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 26 WATER PCB-SD0000029461 1 Scott case? 2 A . Yes, I did. 3 Q A matter pend ing in Beaumon t, 4 Texas? 5 A . Yes, sir. 6 Q How about in the Bloomin g t o n 7 cases? 8 A . I've given a deposition i. n the 9 Bloomingt on cases, I ha ve not test i f i e d . 1 0 Q In the Scott case you ac t u a lly 1 1 appeared in court? 1 2 A . Yes. 1 3 Q In every one of those in s t a n c e s , 1 4 sir, has your compensat ion been pa id by 1 5 Monsanto? 16 A. I'm trying to think. I mean , 1 7 sometime there were fiv e defendant s ' 1 8 lawyers, and I got paid by the def e n d a n t s ' 1 9 lawyers, and I don't know where th e 2 0 defendant s' lawyers got their mone y, but 2 1 I'm sure they were paid by someone 2 2 Q Did you have to seek the 2 3 authority of Monsanto to testify in any 2 4 instance where you were contacted by a 2 5 defendant's lawyer, for example? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOUR I 27 WATER PCB-SD0000029462 1 MR . MAL I N : I object to the form 2 of the question. If you think you 3 understand that question -- 4 A. Yes. He's asking me did I have 5 to ask Monsanto whether I could testify or 6 not. 7 MR . COHEN : Yes , sir. 8 A. I never had to ask Monsanto at 9 all. I was a private consultant, and 1 0 M o n s a n t o had no relationship with me 1 1 the exceptio n that they were a client 1 2 Q In the Scott case, did you 1 3 testify as a private consultant or were you 1 4 asked to testify by Monsanto? 1 5 MR. MALINi I object to the form 1 6 of that question, too. If you think you 1 7 understand that distinction -- 1 8 A. No, I don't. 1 9 MR. MALIN: Okay. 2 0 MR. COHEN: For whom were you 2 1 acting as a consultant when you acted as a 2 2 consultant? 2 3 A. In the Scott case? 2 4 Q. Yes. 2 5 A. For Monsanto. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 28 WATER PCB-SD0000029463 1 Q. So, Monsanto arranged for your 2 appearance, and you testified accordingly? 3 A . Yes, sir. 4 Q . And did they pay your fees 5 A . Yes, they did. 6 Q And were they the fee rang 7 s c u s sed earlier, somew here b e t w 8 hundred and a hundred and fifty an hour? 9 A. I think it was a hundred and 1 0 fifty dollars an hour, yes. 1 1 Q That was for all the t i m 1 2 you spent offering t e s t i m o n y in t h 1 3 litigation? 1 4 A . Yes, sir. 1 5 Q. Did they also pay you for your 1 6 time to prepare and consult, and that sort 1 7 of thing? 1 8 A. Yes, sir. 1 9 Q. And are they doing the same 2 0 thing; are you under the same 2 1 arrange m e n t in this P a o 1 i lit 2 2 A . Yes, sir. 2 3 Q. So, even though you don't know 2 4 who's going to pay you, the arrangements 2 5 have apparently been made through Monsanto? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 29 WATER PCB-SD0000029464 1 A . Yes, sir. 2 Q - How about the Bloomington case? 3 A . What about it? 4 Q Same arrangeme nts there? 5 A . Yes, sir. 6 Q Same as today. same as Scott? 7 A . Yes, sir. 8 Q . Do you have co unsel representing 9 you today ? 1 0 A . Yes, I do. 1 1 Q Who is your co u n s e 1 ? 1 2 A . The gentleman to my right. 1 3 Q That ' s Mr. Mai in? 1 4 A . Mali n, yes, si r . 1 5 Q Who secured yo ur counsel? 1 6 A . Beg pardon? 1 7 Q Who secured yo ur counsel? 1 8 A . I did. 1 9 Q When did you d o that? 2 0 A . Yesterday. 2 1 Q How was the contact made; had you 2 2 heard of Mr. M a 1 i n from reading the 2 3 newspaper or s omething? 24 A. No . I met him a year ago or so 2 5 when we discus sed this i n a very GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 30 WATER PCB-SD0000029465 1 preliminary fashion. And when I met him 2 yesterday to talk over the details of this 3 particular deposition, I said I believe I 4 need counsel. 5 Q And Mr. Mali n agreed to provide 6 you with c o u n s el? 7 A . Yes, sir. 8 Q And did you e nter into an 9 arrangeme n t to c o m p e n s a te Mr. Malin for his 1 0 time? 1 1 A. Not as yet. 1 2 Q. But you expec t to be compensating 1 3 Mr. Malin? 1 4 A. I expect -- 1 5 Q. Do you expect to be compensating 1 6 Mr . Mai i n f o r h i s servi ces in representing 1 7 you a s a w i t n e s s r as d i stinguished from his 1 8 represe n t a t ion i n this matter of Monsanto? 1 9 A. He may be rec ompensed by 2 0 Monsanto. 2 1 Q Well, what is your expectation? 2 2 A . Well, I hope he would be 2 3 r e c o m p e nsed by Monsanto 2 4 Q Is that becau se you would like to 2 5 see him paid or because you would like to GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 31 WATER PCB-SD0000029466 1 see him paid without you having to pay him? 2 A . No, I just -- whichever is the 3 correct way to do it 4 Q. Hell, I guess I'm trying to 5 understand, did you enter into an agreement 6 with Mr. Malin regarding his compensation? 7 A. No, I have not. 8 Q. Did you discuss the subject of 9 this compensation at all? 1 0 A. No, I did not. 1 1 Q. So, other than the discussion 12 that you just told us about, that is, you 1 3 said I think I might need counsel, and Mr. 1 4 Malin agreed to be your counsel, was there 1 5 any other discussion whatsoever regarding 1 6 this engagement of Mr. Malin as your 1 7 counsel? 1 8 A. None at all. 1 9 Q. Would it be fair to say that I 2 0 have just essentially restated the entire 2 1 agreement between yourself and Mr. Malin 2 2 for him to represent you as counsel? 2 3 A. Why don't you restate it? 2 4 Q. Why don't you read it back. 2 5 (The requested portion of the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 32 WATER PCB-SD0000029467 1 record read by the reporter). 2 A. Yes, you have. 3 Q Than k you, sir. W h e n you fir s t 4 met with M r ., M alin approx i m a t e 1 y a year 5 ago , was h e h o lding himse If 0 u t a s c o u n s e 1 6 for Monsanto? 7 A . Frankly, the d e tail s of that 8 meeting are rather dim i n m y mind. It was 9 more than a year ago, I believe. I'm not 1 0 sure whether it was two years ago or not. 1 1 We met at Monsanto, so I assumed that he 1 2 was Monsanto's legal representative for 1 3 defending them in this particular suit if 1 4 it ever came to fruition. 1 5 Q. Now, when you met with Mr. M a 1 i n 1 6 more recently, I believe you said it was 1 7 yesterday, what was it about the discussion 1 8 that caused you to conclude you needed 1 9 legal counsel? 2 0 MR. MALIN: Okay. Answer the 2 1 question. 2 2 A. Will you repeat the question? 23 (The requested portion of the 2 4 record read by the reporter). 25 A. There was no discussion. I GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 33 WATER PCB-SD0000029468 1 decided if I'm going to sit down in a 2 conference room with ten or eleven lawyers, 3 I'd better have my own c o u n s e 1 . 4 Q Now, when you testified on b e h a 5 of Monsan to in the past. have you reached 6 similar conclusion? 7 MR. HALIN: I object to the form a of that question, it's too broad, 9 non-specific. If you think you -- 1 0 MR. COHEN: Let's talk about, 11 then, the Scottlitigation and the 1 2 Bloomington litigation. In those 1 3 litigations when you testified on behalf of 1 4 Monsanto, did you conclude that you needed 1 5 legal counsel? 1 6 A. If you say testified in court, I 17 did not . I do n o t know whether I had 1 8 c o u n s e 1 a t the t i m e of the depos it i o n or 1 9 not . I d o not k n o w 2 0 Q. You do understand, sir, that 2 1 you're testifying here today under oath? 2 2 A . Yes , I know that. 2 3 Q S 0 that the distinction that 2 4 you're making between testifying in court 2 5 and testifying in deposition, in both GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 34 WATER PCB-SD0000029469 1 instances I'm referring to them as 2 testimony. 3 A. All right, fine. Sometimes 4 people do not do that. But you are 5 referring to a deposition and a court 6 appearance as the same? 7 Q. I'm referring to it all as 8 testimony . 9 A. All as testimony? 1 0 Q. Yes. 1 1 A. Yes, sir. 1 2 Q. With that clarification, sir, in 1 3 the past, have you concluded in those 1 4 litigations I was discussing, Scott and 1 5 Bloomington, have you concluded that you 1 6 needed counsel? 1 7 A. I do not recollect whether I did 1 8 in Scott or not. I do not believe I did in 1 9 Bloomington, I'm not sure. 2 0 Q. Let me ask you this, have you 2 1 ever had the occasion in connection with a 2 2 litigation where you were testifying on 2 3 behalf of Monsanto to actually go out and 2 4 seek and employ separate private counsel to 2 5 represent you at either a deposition or a GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 35 WATER PCB-SD0000029470 1 hearing? 2 A . No, I have not. 3 Q. To be clear, you have not done so 4 this time, either? 5 A. No, I have not. 6 Q. Did Mr. Malin advise you as a 7 result of b e i n g your counsel that he could 8 object to q u e s t i o n s that were put to you 9 and instr u c t you not to answer those 1 0 questions 7 1 1 A . You have a double question there. 12 MR . MALIN : You're getting into 1 3 questions o f privilege, I'm going to direct 1 4 the witness not to answer. 1 5 MR. COHEN: The privilege you're 1 6 asserting is what, a11orney/c 1 ient 1 7 privilege? You're not going to tell me? 1 8 MR. MALIN: Attorney/c1ient . 1 9 MR. COHEN: In the past, sir, you 2 0 told me that you had acted as a consultant 2 1 in forensic matters in approximately 50 2 2 occasions d u r i ng the last 16 years. 2 3 approxima t e 1 y 4 0 times on behalf of 2 4 Monsanto. How about the other ten times, 2 5 were they for outside parties, unrelated to GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 36 WATER PCB-SD0000029471 1 Monsanto? 2 A Ye s , t h e y w e r e . 3 Q W i t h o u t g i v i n g me t h e n a m e s o f 4 the e n t i t i e s , d o Y o u k now t h e n a m e s o f the 5 e n t i t i e s for w h o m Y o u were a c o n s u 1 t a n t ? 6 A Oh , Y e s 7 Q . Do y o u k n o w w h e t h e r t h o s e 8 entities were claimants or defendants? 9 A. In all but one they were 1 0 defendants. 1 1 Q. And in one instance you offered 1 2 testimony as an expert, or have consulted, 1 3 rather, as an expert on behalf of the 1 4 claimant? 1 5 A . Yes, I have. 1 6 Q When was tha t e p i s o d e ? 1 7 A . Eight to ten Y ear s ago 1 8 Q Did you offe r t e s t i mo n Y? 1 9 A . Yes, I did. 2 0 Q And, again. b y t e s t ifflo ny, sir. 2 1 either by deposition o r a t t h e t ime of some 2 2 hearing? 23 A . Yes, sir. 2 4 Q. Do you recall what jurisdiction 25 that matter was -- in which jurisdiction GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 37 WATER PCB-SD0000029472 1 that matter was? 2 A . Illinois. I do not know the 3 county. 4 Q State court. though? 5 A . State Court. 6 Q Do you recall the nature of the 7 claim that was made? 8 A. Yes. This man was an engineer for 9 a railroa d , he was expos e d to d iesel fumes 1 0 in the r o u n d house of a railroa d . 1 1 Q. And did you conclude that this 1 2 exposure to fumes had caused h i m some harm? 1 3 A . Yes. 1 4 Q Do you recall, did I a s k you i f 1 5 you recal led the name of the 1 i t i g a n t o n 1 6 whose beh a 1 f you were acting? 1 7 A. No, I do not. 1 8 Q. The other nine or so instances 1 9 where you have appeared as a consultant on 2 0 behalf of defendants, were they all cases 2 1 involving testimony? 22 A. Yes, sir. Well, defendants ? 2 3 'll have to make a correction, then. 2 4 e c a u s e I have been involved in cases for 2 5 - that were sent me by a plaintiff, and GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 38 WATER PCB-SD0000029473 1 said I do not believe that there is any 2 validity to this claim, if that is 3 testimony. There was no deposition in that 4 case, I was dropped. 5 Q. What I'm referring to, sir, are 6 not instances where you were consulted but 7 did not testify, but, rather, simply 8 instances where you were consulted and did 9 testify, whether that testimony was offered 1 0 by the vehicle of a deposition or in a 1 1 hearing of some sort. Do you understand? 1 2 A. I don't follow the question. I 1 3 mean, I understand the parameters of your 1 4 question, but what is the question? 1 5 Q. I was just making the parameters 1 6 clear for you. Going back -- once we 1 7 understand the ground rules here, going 1 8 back, I'm asking you whether, in those nine 1 9 or so instances you were called upon to 2 0 testify, and, if so, how many of those 2 1 instances? 2 2 A. Probably six or seven. 23 Q. Do you recall the style or the 2 4 caption of the matters in those six or 2 5 seven cases where you were called upon to GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 39 WATER PCB-SD0000029474 1 testify? 2 A. I don't know what you mean by the 3 style or the matter. What -- 4 Q. Well, this is called In Re Paoli. 5 Rail Yard PCB litigation. 6 MR. MALIN: Who versus who? 7 MR. COHEN: See, that's why you 8 hire a good attorney, he makes things so 9 good. 1 0 A. What was the question, again? 1 1 Q. Do you remember the names of what 1 2 those cases were, who versus whom? 1 3 A. There were Kracht versus Illinois 1 4 Central, K-r-a-c-h-t. Gallatin, 1 5 G-a-l-l-a-t-i-n, versus Illinois Central. 1 6 Those are the only two names involved in 1 7 the litigation that I know of -- that I 1 8 remember. 1 9 Q. But in the matters -- and I 2 0 understand you've identified four for us, 2 1 is that right? 2 2 A. No, that's two. 2 3 Q. Three were Kracht. I thought you 2 4 said three were Kracht. One was Kracht? 2 5 A. One was Kracht, one was Gallatin. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 40 WATER PCB-SD0000029475 1 Q . In the two, then, that you 2 recall, the party who engaged your services 3 was the Illinois Central Railroad, is that 4 right? 5 A . T h a t i s correct. 6 Q D i d any of those claims involve 7 exposure or alleged exposure to PCB's? 8 A. Yes, they did. 9 Q. And do you recall the courts in 1 0 which those matters were pending? 1 1 A. I thought it was the State Court 12 in Illinois. I only gave depositions, I 1 3 did not testify in a trial. 1 4 Q. Do you have copies of those 1 5 depositions? 1 6 A . Fran k 1 y , I don ' t know. 1 7 Q Let me ask you this, do you 1 8 maintain files in the 50 or so forensic 1 9 matters in which you' v e -- 2 0 A. I do, but not in perpetuity. I 2 1 mean, after one or two years I throw them 2 2 out. 2 3 Q. Do you have any of the files 2 4 pertaining to the 50 or so cases in which 2 5 you were asked to consult? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 41 WATER PCB-SD0000029476 1 A. I probably have a dozen. They 2 still may be ongoing, though. 3 Q. Would those dozen files contain 4 copies of transcripts of your testimony in 5 the instances where you have testified? 6 A . They may and they m a Y n o t. . 7 Q I ' m going t o ask you , s i r, if you 8 will make a s e arch o f those f i 1 e s and 9 ascertain for us all matters in which you 1 0 have given a deposition and in which you 1 1 have -- I'm sorry, given testimony, 1 2 whether by deposition or a hearing, and to 1 3 identify for your counsel, Mr. Malin, those 1 4 matters in which you have located -- I'm 1 5 sorry, in those matters which you have 1 6 identified where you have testified and 1 7 those matters in which a transcript of your 1 8 testimony is available. Will you d o that 1 9 for me, sir? You need not do i t t o day. 2 0 A. Thank you. Yes, I will. I will 2 1 look and tell my counsel. 2 2 Q. Good. And, counsel, we will make 2 3 a request at this time for i d e n t i f i c a t i o n 2 4 of the capti o n s o f all the matter s i n w h i c h 2 5 the witness has t e s t i f i e d , and co P i e s o f GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 42 WATER PCB-SD0000029477 1 all a v a i lable transc r i p t s o f t e s t i m o n Y i n 2 which he has testifi e d as a cons u 1 t a n t . I n 3 the even t that they' r e not avail able. 4 nonethel ess, the ind i c a t i o n that he h a s 5 testifie d, but does n o t h a v e the test i m o n y 6 availabl e. Thank yo u . Now , i n cases w here 7 you act as a forensi c c o n s u 1 t a n t , d o Y o u 8 make it a practice t o p h y s i c a 1 1 y exam i n e 9 the c 1 ai m a n t ? 1 0 A . Some cases r yes; some cases r n o . 1 1 Q Tell me ho W you m ake the de c i s i o n 1 2 whether you're going t o e x a mine or no t ? 1 3 A . If they ar e sent to me for 1 4 examinat ion and they want my med i c a 1 1 5 opinion as to the st a t e of their heal t h , I 1 6 examine them. 1 7 Q Do you fee 1 that the i n a b i 1 ity to 1 8 examine them prevent s you f r o m r e n d e r i n g an 1 9 opinion in a case wh e r e you don' t h a v e the 2 0 opportun ity to exami n e them ? 2 1 MR. MALIN : 0 b j e c t i o n to t h e form 22 of the question. If Y o u t h ink y o u 2 3 understand that -- 24 MR . COHEN : If y o u don ' t 2 5 understand. I'll res t a t e it GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 43 WATER PCB-SD0000029478 1 A. Better ask me again. 2 Q. Sure. You said in some cases 3 where the person is sent to you for 4 examination you do an examination. In 5 other cases, if the person is not sent to 6 you, do you, nonetheless, render an opinion 7 when you have not had the opportunity to 8 examine him? 9 A. Opinion as to what? 1 0 Q. Any opinion whatsoever regarding 1 1 the person's claim? 12 MR. MALIN: I object to the form 1 3 of the question on the ground that it's 1 4 very vague as to what you're asking for in 1 5 the question. If you think you understand 1 6 it, you can answer. 1 7 A. I understand it. I certainly 1 8 believe it's certainly vague. I mean, I'm 1 9 not sure whether he's referring to am I 2 0 giving an opinion as to the state of that 2 1 man's health. If that is the question, 2 2 that's one thing. If it's a question of 2 3 does the type of exposure this man alleges 2 4 give him this alleged medical condition, 25 that's a different question. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 44 WATER PCB-SD0000029479 1 Q. Any other issues that you can 2 think of at this time? 3 A. Not at the present. I may think 4 of another one or so. 5 Q. Let's talk about state of 6 health. Does it affect your ability to 7 opine regarding the individual's state of 8 health, present state of health? 9 A. Not if I have -- 1 0 MR . MAL I N : Excuse m e . I'm going 1 1 object t o the form of the q u e s t i o n . 1 2 n you say does it. is that , a 1 so, the 1 3 failure to take a medical examination? 1 4 MR. COHEN: Yes. I think that 1 5 you understood that, didn't you. Doctor? 1 6 A. Yes. The fact that I have not 1 7 examined a man does not affect my ability 1 8 to make a medical judgment if I have an 1 9 adequate medical examination and records 2 0 from an unbiased observer, unbiased 2 1 physician. 2 2 Q . And the determination of the 2 3 adequacy of those records, is that a 2 4 determination that you make yourself on an 2 5 ad hoc basis? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ! ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 45 WATER PCB-SD0000029480 1 A . That's correct 2 Q. So, if you review the file, then, 3 and you see that there are medical records 4 in the file and you examine those records 5 and determine that those records are 6 adequate and from what you believe to be an 7 evaluation by an unbiased physician, you a can then pass an opinion on the state of 9 that individual's health? 1 0 A. Yes. But I'll add another 11 qualification. 1 2 Q . Please. 1 3 A. An unbiased qualified physician. 1 4 Q. All right. An unbiased qualified 1 5 physician? 1 6 A. Correct. 1 7 Q . So, that would -- again, the 1 8 determination of qualification would, 1 9 again, be something you would make on an ad 2 0 hoc basis? 2 1 A. That is correct. 2 2 Q . Bias, I gather, is something that 2 3 would be information that you would receive 2 4 or determine, also, from a file? 2 5 A. I didn't hear -- GOREREPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 46 WATER PCB-SD0000029481 1 Q. Potential bias of the examiner on 2 whose records you're relying? 3 A. Would be what? 4 Q. Something that you would 5 determine from the file itself, or would be 6 information that was given to you? 7 MR. MALIN: I object t o the form 8 o f the question. I think what h e ' s asking 9 you i s how would you determine i f the exam 1 0 was biased or not. 1 1 MR . COHEN : Let ' s use your 1 2 counsel 's question. He's doing a fine job 1 3 today . How would you det ermine the bias of 1 4 the examiner? 1 5 A . Well, if I found somebody who I 1 6 had records of on previous cases, had given 1 7 o p i n ions based on medical n onsense, I would 1 8 come up to the belief that this man is 1 9 biased. 2 0 Q. It might also affect your opinion 2 1 of that person's qualifications, wouldn't 2 2 it? 2 3 A. No. He might have very good 2 4 qualifications . 2 5 Q. So, in other words, if you have GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 47 WATER PCB-SD0000029482 1 adequate medical records as you determine 2 it on an ad hoc basis, your inability to 3 physically examine the person involved, 4 nonetheless, does not prevent you from 5 passing an opinion as to that individual's 6 present state of health? 7 T h a t i s c orrec t . 8 H o w a b o u t the other is sue that 9 s s e d, t h a t i s , does the claimed 1 0 exposure to such and such give rise to the 1 1 possibility of the claimed harm? Do you 1 2 recall that? You raised that as a second 1 3 issue. Does the lack of physical 1 4 examination affect your ability to render 1 5 an opinion on that issue? 1 6 A. If I have the same situation. If 1 7 I have medical information from an 1 8 unbiased, qualified individual, I will 1 9 accept those as medical facts that I might 2 0 have determined on my own examination. 2 1 Q. Now, that will tell you about the 2 2 person's physical condition, that medical 2 3 evidence? 2 4 A. Yes. 2 5 Q. That's not going to tell you GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 48 WATER PCB-SD0000029483 1 anything about whether the exposure causes 2 the claimed harm? 3 A. No. That is based on 40 years of 4 experience with a particular chemical 5 involved. 6 Q That, however. would not b e 7 s u f f i c i e n t to a 1 low you to pass an opinion 8 alone, would it, just the exposure? 9 A. Well, if there is -- yes, it 1 0 would. If there is adequate exposure, 1 1 there can be no disease attributable to 1 2 this exposure which -- 1 3 Q. Let's back up. My last question 1 4 was confusing, let's back up. You base 1 5 your opinion on this causative chain of 1 6 events based upon, one, your knowledge 1 7 accumulated over 40 years of how the 1 8 substance acts? 1 9 A . That 's correct. 2 0 Q . You would also take into 2 1 sideration other facts , however. with 2 2 pect to the individual ' s claim. is that 2 3 right? 2 4 A. Yes. 25 Q. What facts would you take into GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 49 WATER PCB-SD0000029484 1 consideration with respect to that 2 individual in order to enable you 3 an opinion? 4 A. There are several facts that a 5 person has to have. 6 Q Tell me a b o u 7 A . Firs t of all 8 scientific likelihood that this chemical 9 can give this man the symptoms or illnesses 1 0 that he is claiming. In other words, if a 1 1 person is claiming diabetes from exposure 1 2 to a particular chemical, and there has 1 3 been no evidence in the medical literature 1 4 that diabetes is caused by anybody even 1 5 remotely connected to this chemical, that 1 6 will be a fact that would e nter in t o m y 17 opinion . Numb er two, if th e type o f 1 8 exposure the p erson alleges is not a t all 1 9 relevant to t h e dose that i ndividua 1 s are 2 0 exposed t o and have no such illness / that 2 1 is also - - e n ters into my opinion . 2 2 Q Then what you've referred t o as 2 3 the dose that persons are e x p o s e d t o , 2 4 you're referring to your knowledge, again, 2 5 of scientific literature as to what's been GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOUR I 50 WATER PCB-SD0000029485 1 reported o n dose c a u s i ng h arm ? 2 A . Th at i s c o r r e c t . 3 Q. 0kay . Anyth i n g els e ? 4 A . I may think o f s o m e t h i n g el s e . 5 Q . We 1 1 , what o th e r i n for m a t i o n 6 would you w a n t t o have b e f ore y o u w o u 1 d 7 make an o pin ion regard i n g t h a t c a u s a 1 8 c h a i n, other t h a n s c i e n t i f i c 1 i k eliho 0 d 9 that the c h e mica 1 can g i v e th e c 0 n d i t ion 1 0 c 1 a i m e d a n d the type o f e x p o s u r e as i t 1 1 comp ares t 0 what the 1 i t e r a t u r e shows o n 1 2 dose rela t i o n s h i P? 1 3 A . In my experi ence wi th 1ndiv 1dua 1 s 1 4 that have b e e n e x p o s e d t o the m a t e r i a 1 for 1 5 e x t e n s i v e c i r c u m stance s w h ere th ey ' re 1 6 h a v i n g a g r e ater expos u r e o v e r a long 1 7 peri o d of t i m e , and my e x a min a t i on of them 18 has shown n o ill e f f e c t s Th a t ' s pr e tty 1 9 c 1 o s e to the sec o n d re a s o n I g a v e you 2 0 Q I n o t h e r words t you ' r e sort o f 2 1 p e r s o n a 1 i zing t h at second dose-i lines s 2 2 r e 1 a t i o n s hip , t h at is, your pers o n a 1 2 3 e x p e r i e n c e e x a m i ning people who have 2 4 expo s u r e s and t h eir lack of m e d i cal 2 5 cons e q u e n c e s ? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 51 WATER PCB-SD0000029486 1 A . And ill effects that's correct. 2 Q Anything else? 3 A . I'd say the time relationship. 4 Q Time to what? 5 A . Well, suppose som ebody said I was 6 exposed in 1950 -7 Q . And got sick in 1 9 9 0 ? 8 A . And now it's 1990 , and I have 9 diabetes, this is due to wh at I was exposed 1 0 to in 1950 . I would believ e that is an 1 1 important a s p e ct of my medi cal opinion, 1 2 Q The remoteness, o r lack thereof, 1 3 of time of the claimed inju r y to the 1 4 alleged exposu re? 1 5 A . That is correct. 1 6 Q . Next ? 1 7 A . That ' s all I thin k of at present, 1 8 Q . And would it be f air to say, 1 9 based upon the se facts that we have just 2 0 discussed. eve n in the abse nee of a 2 1 physical exami nation you wo uld feel the 2 2 ability to r e n der an opinio n regarding a 2 3 particular per son's claim? 2 4 A . Yes, sir. 2 5 Q Would it be fair to say that in GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 52 WATER PCB-SD0000029487 1 the past you have rendered an opinion in 2 the absence of a physical examination of 3 claimants based upon the facts that you 4 have outlined for us here today? 5 You mean a physical examination 6 by me? 7 Q Yes, by you. 8 A . Yes. I mean, I am privy to the 9 medical examinations by others. 1 0 Q - I understand. 11 A. Yes, that ' s corre c t . I do no 1 2 have to examine the pe o p 1 e , if a d e q u a t e 1 3 medical informa t i o n i s pres e n t . 1 4 Q And w i t h a d e q u a t e m e d i c a 1 1 5 information and consideration of facts that 1 6 we have just discussed, you have in the 1 7 past rendered opinions as to whether an 1 8 individual was suffering from a particular 19 harm as a result of an exposure? 2 0 A. That's correct. 2 1 Q. And would that have been, that 2 2 last sequence of events and scenario that 2 3 we discussed have been in cases in which 2 4 you were testifying at the behest of 2 5 Monsanto Corporation? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 53 WATER PCB-SD0000029488 1 A. Yes, si r . Among others 2 Q I n c 1 u d i ng the rai 1 r o a d s ? 3 A . Yes, si r . 4 Q Now, we had been t a 1 k i n g a b out 5 e m p 1 o y m e n t , and you ha d told m e that 6 you are presently sort of in the private 7 practice of medicine, principally 8 evaluating people for others, other health 9 care providers, at their request, and you 1 0 were a consultant to the Barnes-Sutter 1 1 Health Service. That's doing medical . 1 2 consulting for Barnes-Sutter? 1 3 A . Yes, sir. 1 4 Q. Can you tell me about your other 1 5 employment activities other than the 1 6 forensic consulting that you have been 1 7 engaged in since you terminated your 1 8 employment with Monsanto December 1, '74? 19 A. Yes. I have been a consultant to 2 0 Consolidated Aluminum Company, which had 2 1 its headquarters in St. Louis, although it 2 2 was owned by a Swiss company. 2 3 Q. What sort of consulting? 2 4 A. Beg pardon? 2 5 Q. What sort of consultant? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 54 WATER PCB-SD0000029489 1 A . Well it was almost like a 2 medical administrator . A t that part 3 time w h en I came with them they had 4 plants or so, now they have three, so I am 5 no longer -- I resigned from that as of 6 anuary the Is t of this year, because three 7 u s t - - there w a s n ' t a ny need for me any 8 ore. 9 Q What were you working on. 1 0 occupational health issues regarding their 1 1 employees ? 1 2 A. Both occupational health issues 1 3 and medical costs of their insurance 1 4 program. 1 5 Q. Anything else, any other services 1 6 you provided for Consolidated? 1 7 A. For Consolidated? 1 8 Q . Yes, sir. 1 9 A. I arranged for industrial hygiene 2 0 services at some of their primary reduction 2 1 plants. 2 2 Q. Through industrial hygienists 2 3 that you knew or were aware of? 2 4 A. That's correct. 2 5 Q. What were the inclusive dates of GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 55 WATER PCB-SD0000029490 1 your consulting services with Consolidated 2 Aluminum? 3 A . Either 1976 or 1977 until 4 December 31, 1989. 5 Q Any other employment e x p e r i ences 6 during that time? That's 12/1/7 4 to date. 7 A . To date? 8 Q To date. 9 A . No, I don' t think so. 1 0 MR . MALIN : You said 1 9 7 8 t o -- 1 1 what's your question ? I'm sorry 1 2 MR. COHEN: My questio n is. any 1 3 other e mployment exp eriences oth e r t. h an the 1 4 ones we have thus fa r discussed b e t w e e n 1 5 those i nclusive date s, 12/1/74 t o d a t e ? 16 A. You asked for -- yes. For one 1 7 year, f rom 12/74 to 12/75, I was on a 1 8 formal basis with Mo nsanto for a year 1 9 That's the only -- 2 0 Q . That's wha t ? 2 1 A . I guess it was Medical Dire c t o r 2 2 Emeritu s. I was -- 23 Q Did the sa me job as wh e n y o u were 2 4 medical director? 2 5 A . No, I d i d n 't, because they had a GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 56 WATER PCB-SD0000029491 1 new medical director and I took whatever 2 jobs he gave me. 3 Q. So, was it as anindependent 4 contractor, or were you still an employee? 5 A . No, I was not an employee. 6 Q. So, it was sort of you got paid 7 on some fee schedule basis or something? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. And that was for one year? 1 0 A. One year. 1 1 Q. Any other employment experiences, 1 2 then, from 12/74 to date other than we've 1 3 discussed? 1 4 A. No, sir. 1 5 Q. How would you describe your 1 6 relationship with Monsanto Chemical today? 1 7 A. How would I describe it? Very 1 8 friendly. 1 9 Q. Okay. Do you have any 2 0 professional relationship with them, other 2 1 than providing occasional consulting 2 2 services or acting as a consultant in 2 3 forensic matters? 24 A. No. Some of my own friends may 2 5 call up and say give me the name of a good GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 57 WATER PCB-SD0000029492 1 eye doc tor, I ' ve got a kidney stone. g i v e 2 me the name of a urologist. 0 u t s i d e o f 3 that, I have n one. 4 Q That 's on a personal - 5 A . You said prof essiona 1 basis / 6 though. 7 Q Yes. 8 A . Wei], , I want to give you all the 9 details 1 0 Q S o , that's your prof e s s i o n a 1 1 1 service s as a medical doctor? 1 2 A . As a friend, really. b e c a u s e I 1 3 d i d n ' t take c a re of them. 1 4 Q Ther e is no other re 1 a t i o n s hip 1 5 you h a v e with Monsanto today? 16 A. I g e t a pension from them. I get 1 7 invited to the old folks dinne r . Out s i d e 1 8 of that -- 1 9 Q And I gather your pe n s i o n i s n o t. 2 0 in any way con ditioned upon your cont inu i n g 2 1 to prov i d e con suiting services , or an y t h i n g 2 2 like that? 2 3 A. That has never been brought it up 2 4 until you brought it up now. 2 5 Q. Your pension is through some GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 58 WATER PCB-SD0000029493 1 pension and profit sharing arrangement that 2 Monsanto has for al 1 its empl o y e e s ? 3 A . Not profi t sharing. 4 Q Pension. 5 (Discussi on off the r e c 0 r d ) . 6 MR . COHEN : The a n s wer w a s 7 pension? We were t alking abo u t y o u r 8 present c ircums tanc e s, and y o u s a i d you 9 receive a pension? 1 0 A . It was no t profit s h a r i n g 1 1 Q But it is through a pe n s ion plan 1 2 established pension plan? 1 3 A . That's ri g h t . 1 4 Q . Are you a sharehold e r o f 1 5 Monsanto? 1 6 A . Yes, I am 1 7 Q And can y ou tell me , r d e r of 1 8 magnatude , how many shares of t h e company 1 9 you hold? 2 0 A . Probably less than a hundred 2 1 thousand dollars worth. 2 2 Q At market value? 2 3 A . That's correct. 2 4 Q Are you a sharehold e r i n any 2 5 other entity which is a party to this GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 59 WATER PCB-SD0000029494 1 litigation, do you know? 2 A. Who are the parties? 3 Q. All right, let's try that. Let's 4 see. General Electric company? 5 A . No . 6 Q Westinghouse? 7 A . No . 8 Q The Budd Company? 9 A . No . 1 0 Q Isn't that privately owned? I 1 1 don't im a gine -- Conrail? 1 2 A . No . 1 3 Q . Am trak? 1 4 A . No . 1 5 Q Penn Central Corporation? 16 A . No . 1 7 Q You have a Bachelor of Science 1 8 degree, i s that right, sir? 1 9 A . That is correct. 2 0 Q . Can you tell me, what was your 2 1 principal area of concentration to get that 2 2 degree? 2 3 A. Well, at that particular time it 2 4 was s ort o f a hybrid degree, it was 2 5 B a c h e o f Science in Medicine. You L O GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 60 WATER PCB-SD0000029495 1 received it after your second year in 2 medical school. So, I wrote my thesis in 3 bacteriology. 4 Q. How many years of undergraduate 5 education did you actually have? 6 A. Two. 7 Q. So, there were two years of 8 undergraduate education and then you went 9 on directly to medical school? 1 0 A. That is correct. 1 1 Q. And thatwas -- both of those 1 2 programs were at St. Louis University? 1 3 A. That is correct. 1 4 Q. And you received your medical 1 5 doctorate when? Your Doctor of Medicine, 1 6 when did you receive that degree? 1 7 A. Did you say when? 1 8 Q. Yes. When? 1 9 A . 1 9 3 2. 2 0 Q. You, then, apparently had a 2 1 residency at St. Louis City Hospital? 2 2 A. That is correct. 2 3 Q. And that was a three year 2 4 res idency? 2 5 A . Yes, sir. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 61 WATER PCB-SD0000029496 1 Q. Was it in any particular area of 2 study? 3 A. The first two years were 4 rotating, you rotated among the medical 5 specialties, and the third year was in 6 internal medicine. 7 Q. Are you board certified in any 8 particular area or specialty? 9 A. Yes. I'm board certified in 1 0 internal medicine, I've been recertified in 1 1 internal medicine. I'm board certified in 1 2 preventive medicine under the specialty of 1 3 occupational medicine. 1 4 Q. You say that you are board 1 5 certified in preventive medicine? 1 6 A. That is correct. 1 7 Q. Under the specialty of 1 8 occupational medicine? 1 9 A. That is correct. 2 0 Q. In what jurisdiction are you 2 1 board certified in preventive medicine 2 2 under the specialty of occupational 2 3 medicine; what body has given you that 2 4 certification? 2 5 A. The body is the American Board of GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 62 WATER PCB-SD0000029497 1 Preventive Medicine which is recognized by 2 the A M A a s one of the a c c e p t e d s pe c i a 1 ty 3 gro ups. 4 Q When d i d you b e c o m e b o a r d 5 c e r t i f i e d in prev e n t i v e m e d i c i n e / sir ? 6 W h e n did you b e c o m e boar d c e r t i f i e d i n 7 pre v e n t i v e m e d i c i n e ? 8 A . I think i n the ' 5 0 ' s / w h e n the 9 boa rd was formed. 1 0 Q Was the r e an e x a m i n a t i o n 1 1 invo1ved? 12 A. No . I w a s one o f t h e - - I don' 1 3 t h i n k you call it f o u n d e rs , I w a s n ' t a 1 4 f o u nder, but I w a s the f irs t group t h at w a 1 5 s e 1 e c t e d without e x a m i n a t i o n 1 6 Q And w h a t was the bas i s o Y our 1 7 s e 1 e c t i o n for boa r d cert i f i c a t i o n without 1 8 examination? 1 9 A. I guess you'd have to ask them I 2 0 was recognized as an authority in 2 1 occupational medicine. 2 2 Q Did they approa c h you? 23 A. No . I be 1 i e v e - - I can't answer 24 I don't remem ber. I just don't 2 5 remember. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 63 WATER PCB-SD0000029498 1 Q. So, you don't remember the 2 circumstances of how your name came before 3 the Ameri can Board of Prev e n tive Medi cine? 4 A . No, I don't rememb e r that. 5 Q What employment d i d you h a v e upon 6 completio n of your residen c y at St. L o u i s 7 Hospital in 1935? 8 A . I didn't hear th e last part o f 9 your sent ence. What appoi n t m e n t did I have 1 0 where? .1 1 Q Upon completion o f your res i d e n c y 1 2 in 1935? 1 3 A . Appointment wher e ? 1 4 MR. MALIN: What employment ? 1 5 A . Oh, employment. 1 6 MR. COHEN: I'm s o r r y, I'll try 1 7 to speak up . 18 A. Thank you. Well r I went in t o 1 9 private p ractice in July o f 1935, and I 2 0 went as a part-time physic i a n at M o n s a n t o 2 1 in one of their St. Louis P 1 ants in J a n u a r y 2 2 of 1936. 2 3 Q Would that be th e reference here 2 4 that says Monsanto Company r 1936-1942 2 5 Queeny Plant, plant physician? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 64 WATER PCB-SD0000029499 1 A That i s correct 2 Q Where is the Q ueeny plant? 3 A 1 7 0 0 S o u t h S e c ond Street, St. 4 Louis, Missouri. 5 Q And the Q u e e n Y P 1 ant at that time 6 in 1936 to '42 , was t h a t a m a n u f a cturi n g 7 operation? 8 A. Yes. They manufactured organic 9 chemicals. 1 0 Q. They manufactured what? 1 1 A. Organic chemicals. 1 2 Q. Organic? 1 3 A. Organic. 1 4 Q. o-r-g-a-n-i-c? 1 5 A. Yes. 1 6 Q I s that the division of Monsanto 1 7 that m a n u factures the PCB ' s ? 1 8 A . A t that time? 1 9 Q A t that time? 2 0 A. Well, Monsanto has gone through a 2 1 half a dozen reorganizations. When I came 2 2 with the company, I believe there were only 2 3 three man ufacturing groups . 2 4 Q What were they? 2 5 A . One was the phosphorus group., I GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 65 WATER PCB-SD0000029500 1 think they call themselves the phosphate 2 group. The other was the organic 3 chemicals. And the third as, I g u e s s , the 4 Merrimac Division, which wass the 5 geographical name for the Boston pi ant in 6 Everett, Massachusetts. 7 Q. Merrimac? 8 A. m - e - r - r - i - m - a - c So, the o r g a n i c 9 division manufactured PCB t Anniston / 10 Alabama. Now, it gets a ttle confu sing 11 because the landlord of t plant was the 1 2 phosphorus division, the phoo sspp hhaatee 1 3 division, but the department itsseellf. the 1 4 PCB department was, I believvee ,, uunndder the 1 5 organization of the organic division. 1 6 Eventually, they also manufaaccttuurred P'CB at 1 7 their East St. Louis plant, which wwaas known 1 8 subsequently as the Krummeriicchh plaanntt. now 1 9 known as the Sauget plant. That was under 2 0 the organic division, which is now cc aallileed 2 1 Monsanto Chemical Company. 2 2 Q. So, the East St. Louis plant, 2 3 also known as the Krummerich plant, also 2 4 known a s the Sauget plant, all from time 2 5 time was used at -- all those names GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 66 WATER PCB-SD0000029501 1 identify one facility that was used from 2 time to time to manufacture PCB's? 3 A . When I came, it was called Plant 4 B, so there was a fourth name there. 5 Q. But none of those names is 6 Queeny? 7 A. Queeny is a St. Louis plant. 8 Q. Somewhere else, not in East St. 9 Louis? 1 0 A . No. In St. Louis . I t was also 1 1 known as Plant A. It' s only had two names, 1 2 Plant A a nd the Queeny plant. named after 1 3 the found er of Monsant o . 1 4 Q So, PCB's we re not m a n u f a c t u r e d , 1 5 to your k nowledge, at any tim e at t h e 1 6 Queeny pi ant? 1 7 A . They were no t , that i s cor rect . 1 8 Q Can you tell me w h a t we r e the 1 9 organic c ompounds that you re call t h at were 2 0 raanufactu red at Queeny during t h o s e six 2 1 years tha t you were th ere as plan t 2 2 physician? 2 3 A. Aspirin, caffine, phthalic 2 4 anhydride. We've got a host of them. I 2 5 mean, Orthonitroanilide, chloroani lide . GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 67 WATER PCB-SD0000029502 1 There were about forty different organic 2 compounds . 3 Q. Any of those fall into the broad 4 category of chlorinated hydrocarbons? 5 A . Not that I r e m e m b e r . 6 Q . I n 1 9 4 6 you b e c a m e medical 7 director o f M o n s a n t o C o m p a n Y? 8 A. That is correct. 9 Q And you held that posi t i o n for 1 0 a p p r o x i m a t e 1 y 28 years? 1 1 A . T h i r ty somethi n g . 1 2 Q 3 8 y ears? 13 A. ' 4 2 to '74, 32 years. ' 46 , 1 4 rath e r , I'm so r r y . So, 28 years 1 5 Q 2 8 y ears. And the h i a tus in your 1 6 e m p 1 o y m e n t was that peri o d of ti me that you 1 7 s e r v e d in the United Sta t e s Army 1 8 A . That is correc t . 1 9 Q When you were working as the 2 0 m e d i cal direct or of Mons anto Company, where 2 1 did you work. where did you p h y s i c a 1 1 y 2 2 main t a i n o f f i c e s ? 2 3 A . At their offic e b u i 1 d i ng in about 2 4 1600 South Second Street. It was a six 2 5 story office building adjacent to the John GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 68 WATER PCB-SD0000029503 1 F . Queeny plant. 2 Q. So, that was the St. Louis plant? 3 A. That is correct. Then in 1956 4 they moved out to 800 North Lindbergh, 5 L-i-n-d-b-e-r-g-h . 6 Q What year was tha t, again. 7 ase? 8 A . I think '56. 9 Q A 1 so in St. Louis ? 1 0 A . S t . Louis County, yes. 1 1 Q S t . Louis County. So, d u r 1 2 that entire 28 year tenure you worked at 1 3 the same facility, first the Queeny plant, 1 4 and then a s it was moved to Lin d b e r g h 1 5 Boulevard ? 1 6 A . T h at is c o r r e c t . 1 7 Q W h at were your duties as a plant 1 8 physician f r o m 19 3 6 to '42 at Q u e e n y ? 1 9 A . T o carry out a preven t i v e m e d i c a 1 2 0 program. t o treat o ccupational injuries and 2 1 occupatio n a 1 c o n d i t ions, if the y would 2 2 arise, to c o n s u 11 o n private me d i c a 1 2 3 condition s , consult from the st andpoint o f 2 4 giving advic e to t h e employees. rather than 2 5 treating the m, and giving them one visi t GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 69 WATER PCB-SD0000029504 1 medical care. If someone came in with a 2 sore t h roat and a fever, we'd give them one 3 a d v i c e , medical care, and send him out t o 4 his own private agency. 5 Q Can I have that response read 6 back? 7 (The requested portion of the 8 record read by the reporter). 9 Q. So, that last category, one visit 1 0 medical care, did not relate to 1 1 occupational injuries or conditions? 1 2 A . That is correct. 1 3 Q - If it was something that you 1 4 deemed to be an occupational injury or 1 5 condition , you provided them with 1 6 continuing medical care? 1 7 A. That is correct. 1 8 Q. Continuing through to what step 1 9 or phase of the illness? 2 0 A. Well, I don't exactly know what 2 1 you mean by continuing. If it were 2 2 something out of my competency or if it 2 3 were a fractured arm, they would go to an 2 4 orthopedist and Monsanto would pick up the 2 5 medical charges. They would then -- the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 70 WATER PCB-SD0000029505 1 ones that I would be taking care of, 2 treat him u n t il he got well. 3 Q - Did you ever have occas.iLon to 4 treat any individual who claimed that he 5 had an occupational injury or condition as 6 a result of an exposure to PCB's? 7 A . No, sir, I did not. 8 Q. Did you ever have occasion to 9 treat an individual who claimed he had an 1 0 occupational injury or condition as a 1 1 result of his exposure to some other 1 2 chlorinated hydrocar 1 3 employment w i t h M o n s 1 4 A . I couldn't 1 5 now talking about t h 1 6 1942, and we had solvents there, and there 1 7 were chlorinated hydrocarbon solvents, and 1 8 I might very, very well have treated 1 9 people, but I just do not remember the 2 0 details of the people who came in the 2 1 dispensary in those six years, which were 2 2 what, 45 years ago. 23 Q . And is i t a c c u rte to say that 2 4 while you were pi ant phy s i c i a n a t the 2 5 Queeny plant you did not treat the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 71 WATER PCB-SD0000029506 1 occupational injuries or conditions of 2 Monsanto employees who worked in other 3 plants? 4 A. There might be an occasion -- 5 yes, there might be an occasional case of 6 ones in the other St. Louis plant. We had a 7 plant at Carondelet, Missouri, who had a 8 doctor just on call, and I conceivably may 9 have treated some of those. In East St. 1 0 Louis, the East St. Louis plant, I would be 1 1 seen in consultation if it were a chemical 1 2 intoxication case. 1 3 Q. The East St. Louis plant did 1 4 manufacture PCB's during that time period? 1 5 A . Yes, sir. I don't exactly k n 1 6 when they started, but it was around t h 1 7 early '40 's, and, certa inly. after I c a 1 8 back from the service they were 1 9 manufacturing them, or they manufactured 2 0 them until they ceased manufacturing them. 2 1 Q. But during this early time period 2 2 that we're discussing, '36 to '42, you did 2 3 not have the occasion to treat an 2 4 occupational injury or condition that was 2 5 the result of any alleged exposure to GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 72 WATER PCB-SD0000029507 1 PCB ' s ? 2 A. No, I did not have any, alleged 3 or real; we didn't have any problems with 4 it. No employee problems. 5 Q. When did the PCB production at 6 Anniston start, do you know? 7 A. Well, it was started before 8 Monsanto bought the Swann Chemical, 9 S-w-a-n-n, so it was going when I came to 1 0 work at Monsanto. I thi. nk that Swann 1 1 started in 1933 or 1934, and I thought 1 2 Monsanto bought the plant -- the whole 1 3 Swann Chemical Company sometime in 1935, 1 4 but I'm not sure. 1 5 Q. And that was the Anniston 1 6 operation? 1 7 A . That is correct. 1 8 Q Other than Anniston and the East 1 9 s t . Louis plant, during the time that you 2 0 were e m p 1 oyed by Monsanto, to your 2 1 know ledge , did they manufacture PCB's a t 2 2 any other facilities? 2 3 A. In this country? 2 4 Q . Yes. 2 5 A. They did not in this country. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 73 WATER PCB-SD0000029508 1 they did in the United Kingdom. 2 Q . Where was that? 3 A. Wales, I believe. Ruabon, 4 R-u-a-b-o-n, Wales. I think it was that 5 plant. 6 Q . Do you know the inclusive dates 7 of manufacture in Wales? 8 A. No, I do not. 9 Q . Do you know the inclusive dates 1 0 of manufacture in Anniston? 1 1 A. As I said, I don't know when they 1 2 started. And I think whenever Monsanto 1 3 stopped manufacturing the material in '75, 1 4 '76, something like that, that's when they 1 5 stopped. 1 6 Q . How about in Wales, when did they 1 7 stop there? 1 8 A. I don't remember. 1 9 Q Did your d u t i e s as the medical 2 0 director at Mo n s a n t o Company during those 2 1 28 years from '46 to '74 r e m a in roughly the 2 2 same? 2 3 A . Yes, sir. I mean - - yes, I 2 4 think so. 2 5 Q . Tell me what your duties were in GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 74 WATER PCB-SD0000029509 1 general terms? 2 A . Well, they were to supe rvise the 3 medical departments at the variou s plants, 4 If we di dn't have a medical depar tment, I 5 was to s et one up. I was to inte r f a c e 6 between the plant doctor and the plant 7 manager. He was a plant employee , but he 8 had a do tted line to the medical 9 departme nt. I was responsible fo r setting 1 0 out m e di cal procedures. I was re sponsible 1 1 for sett ing up an industrial hygi e n e 1 2 program. I was responsible for s etting up 1 3 a t o x i c o logical program for obtai n i n g 1 4 material -- obtaining informatio n on our 1 5 byproduc ts -- on our raw material s or 1 6 finished products, and disseminat i n g that 1 7 informat ion to our employees and to our 1 8 customers. 1 9 Q . When did t h at last activity, 2 0 obtaining information on your -- did you 2 1 say byproducts , raw m aterials? 2 2 A . Raw materia Is. Not byproducts, 2 3 raw materials. 2 4 Q . Was it just raw materials? 2 5 A . And the fin ished products. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 75 WATER PCB-SD0000029510 1 Q What sort of information on raw 2 materials and finished products? 3 A. Well, if we were starting a new 4 compound and got product X, and we were 5 going to use it at our Texas City plant, 6 I'd have to find out what the toxic 7 properties of the material were. 8 Q. That's what I want to know. You 9 were finding out toxic properties, then, of 1 0 raw materials and finished products? 1 1 A. Yes. As well as finished 1 2 products. 1 3 Q. And you say you were 1 4 disseminating it to your employees? 1 5 A. Yes. 1 6 Q . When did that activity begin? 1 7 A. Oh, very shortly after 1946. 18 Q. Well, what whatyour sources of 1 9 information on the toxic properties of raw 2 0 materials ? 2 1 A . There were several. Fi r s t of 2 2 all, if it was a "me too" product , in other 2 3 words, if duPont had manufactured it before 2 4 or used it before, I ' d call up th e i r 2 5 medical di rector and say "George, what do GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 76 WATER PCB-SD0000029511 1 you know about this?" That's number one. 2 Number two, I'd go through what medical 3 literature there was available. There 4 wasn't a great deal at that time, because 5 toxicology was not so popular in those 6 days. Number three, I would find out from 7 our individuals in our research department 8 what possible ill effects they might have 9 had doing their bench work with the 1 0 product. Number four, if we didn't have 1 1 any information, we did -- we arranged for 1 2 animal experimentation to find out what the 1 3 basic toxic properties were. 1 4 Q. Anything else? 1 5 A. Well, no. There were government 1 6 bulletins that came out about various 1 7 products. 1 8 Q. Any other sources of information 1 9 you can tell us about today that you used 2 0 from time to time in order to determine the 2 1 toxic properties of raw materials or 2 2 finished products? 2 3 A. No. I think that's exhausted the 2 4 gamut . 2 5 Q. What other activities did you GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 77 WATER PCB-SD0000029512 1 have as m e d i c a 1 director other than those 2 that you've described thus far? 3 A. I think I gave you the three or 4 four. I set up medical departments, 5 supervised them, arranged for industrial 6 hygiene and services to the plant, 7 toxicological services. 8 Q. Set up medical procedures, 9 interfaced with the plant physician and 1 0 management? 1 1 A. And I would also go through the 1 2 plants, the various plants. Before we got 1 3 our industrial hygiene department fully 1 4 organized, I would walk through the 1 5 manufacturing installations to familiarize 1 6 myself with them, with the manufacturing 1 7 processes. 1 8 Q . In connection with your last 1 9 activities, that is, determining the toxic 2 0 properties of raw materials and finished 2 1 products, were you responsible for the 2 2 acquisition of outside services to 23 determine these properties? 2 4 A. Yes. I find it a little hard to 2 5 answer that question. For example, in the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 78 WATER PCB-SD0000029513 1 early days with PCB's work was going to be 2 carried out by -- at Harvard Medical 3 School by Halowax Corporation, which bought 4 some chemicals from Monsanto. Well, they 5 were going to arrange it, and they called 6 us up and said will you defray part of the 7 e n s e s ., If t h a t ' s what you mean by 8 t was arranged b y s omebody else an 9 picked up part of the check. 1 0 Q When was t h a t , sir? 1 1 A . 19 3 7 or '38. 1 2 Q Now, that w a s prior to your 1 3 tenure as the medical director? 1 4 A. Well, yes. But, I was sort of 1 5 -- after I was there for one or two years 1 6 I was sort of medical director without 1 7 portfolio. In other words, if a problem 1 8 came up, they would think well, we've got a 1 9 doctor over at the Queeny plant, let's ask 2 0 him about it, so they would send it to me. 2 1 With that exception, any time an outside 2 2 laboratory was engaged to work on a 2 3 Monsanto product, I was the one that picked 2 4 the laboratory out. 2 5 Q. What was the result of that work GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 79 WATER PCB-SD0000029514 1 done at Harvard at the request of Halowax 2 Corporation? 3 MR . M A L I N : I object to the form 4 question. I ' m not quite sure I 5 and it. 6 MR . COHEN I'll ask it again. 7 There was a study done at Harvard 8 i t y at the r equest of Halowax 9 tio n on PCB ' s, is that right? 1 0 That is c orrect. 1 1 Was that study published? 1 2 Yes, it w a s . 1 3 Q. Do you know the title of the 1 4 study when published? 1 5 A. I do not know the exact details 1 6 of it. But it was published by Dr. Phillip 1 7 Drinker, D-r-i-n-k-e-r, and it was 1 8 published in the Journal of Industrial 1 9 Hygiene and Toxicology in 1938, I believe, 2 0 and 1939, two publications. 2 1 Q. Was that an animal study or was 2 2 that an epidemiological study? 2 3 A. Animal study. 2 4 Q. Do you know who wrote the 2 5 protocol for the study? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 80 WATER PCB-SD0000029515 1 A . Beg pardon? 2 Q . Do you know who wrote the 3 protocol for the study? 4 A. Drinker. 5 Q. Himself? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Is he a medical doctor? 8 A. He'sa P h . D , I believe. 9 Q . Do you know what he was -- what 1 0 his doctorate was in? 11 A. No. But he was head of 1 2 industrial hygiene at Harvard. He was the 1 3 fellow that invented the Drinker 1 4 respirator. He was one of the top people 1 5 in industrial hygiene and industrial 1 6 medicine, even though he did not have a 1 7 medical degree. 1 8 Q Do you know what his g r a d u ate 1 9 w o rk w a s done in. what fie Id? 2 0 A . No, I don't. 2 1 Q Do you know if i t was b i ol ogy r 2 2 c h enlist ry , physic s ; do you have any i d e a ? 2 3 A . No . He was s e n i or to me i n a ge 2 4 a t that t i m e, and he was s e n i o r to m e i n 2 5 r e p u t a t i o n, so I didn ' t go around ch e c k i n GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 81 WATER PCB-SD0000029516 1 on him. 2 Q So, you accepted the f a c t that he 3 would know what h e was doing? 4 A . He was an authority, y e s / sir. 5 Q Do you know what type o f P C B 6 compounds he was studying at tha t t i me? 7 A . That is quite confusin g 8 Q Tell me what you know? 9 A . H a 1 o w a x is primarily c h 1 o r inated 1 0 naphthalene, n-a- p-h-t-h-a-l-e-n - e 1 1 Q Yes. 1 2 A . And the y manufactured a d o z e n 1 3 Halowaxes, some w ere mixtures. Th e base 1 4 was usually chlor inated naphthal e n e , i t 1 5 could have been t richlor, pentic hi o r 9 16 hexachlor, any number of chlorinated 1 7 naphthalenes. In one of them they used a 18 compound which they had told Drinker was 1 9 chlorinated biphenyl. Drinker tested both 2 0 the combined Halowaxes and the individual 2 1 components of some of the Halowaxes. He 2 2 came out with a t o x i city for chlor ina ted -- 2 3 what h e thought was chlorinated biphe n y 1 24 that was quite high. I called him up and I 25 said look, what goes o n, we don't thi n k GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 82 WATER PCB-SD0000029517 1 this is any way close to what you r e 2 talking -- nearly as toxic as you're 3 talking about, where did you get your 4 chlorinated biphenyls, we're not even sure 5 we sell Halowax this. 6 Q . I'm sorry. I didn't hear the las 7 part. 8 A . We're not e v e n sure we s ell 9 Halowax chlorinated b i p h e n y 1 . S o , he s aid 1 0 I got a compound from Halowax that they 1 1 said w a s chlorinated biphenyl, and i t 12 contains 65 percent chlorine. I said well, 1 3 we really don't make a compound that is 1 4 chlorinated biphenyl and sell it with 65 1 5 percent chlorine, the closest we come to 1 6 you is chlorinated at 60 percent and 1 7 chlorinated at 68 percent, we'll send you 1 8 some 68. So, he ran that, and he found out 1 9 it was only fractionally as toxic as the 20 thing that he had tested. And he sort of 2 1 -- and he stated that in his 1939 2 2 article. And we found out afterwards that 2 3 what he tested was not chlorinated 2 4 biphenyl , it was chlorinated biphenyl 2 5 benzene, which is an entirely different GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOUR I 83 WATER PCB-SD0000029518 1 horse, it's got another benzene radical on 2 it and it's a different compound entirely. 3 I'm sorry I had to be so long, but there 4 was confusion about what he tested. 5 Q I appreci ate the e x p 1 a n a t i o n t 6 sir. What was the b a s is t h at y o u were 7 rely i n g upon when Y o u c a 1 1 e d him u p and 8 i n d i c a t e d to him t h a t you d idn ' t b e 1 i e v e 9 that the res u 1 t s w e r e from what you w e r e 1 0 manufacturing? 1 1 A. We had people at Anniston who 1 2 were making the material, and we had sold 1 3 it for any number -- none of these workers 1 4 had any problems, we had sold it in 1 5 millions of pounds -- not millions, 1 6 thousands of pounds at that time, and we 1 7 had no complaints from our customers. And 1 8 I think there may have been some acute 1 9 studies in the literature on the material 2 0 at that time. 2 1 Q. There were prior studies in the 2 2 literature, to your knowledge? 2 3 A. There may have been by a Henry 2 4 Smyth, S-m-y-t-h. He published something 25 on a whole bunch of compounds, and I think GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 84 WATER PCB-SD0000029519 1 this was included in one of his laundry bag 2 list. 3 Q We're talking here i n the 1 a t e 4 '30's, is that right? 5 A . Middle '30's, '36. 6 Q The engagement by Ha 1 o w a x o f the 7 Harvard pe ople I thought was ' 3 7 to ' 3 8 r 8 did I get that wrong? 9 A . No, it was pro b a b 1 y early ' 3 7 1 0 Because Dr inker's public a t i o n either w a s at 1 1 the end of '38 - - '37 o r the b e g i n n i n g o f 1 2 '38. The second one, I know, was in '39. 1 3 So, I don' t know the exa c t -- w h e t h e r it's 1 4 the end of '37 or '38. But S m y t h ' s 1 i s t of 1 5 compounds, which include d a chlorina ted 1 6 biphenyl. was, I think. in '36 . I ' m n o t 1 7 sure. 1 8 Q . So, when you c ailed Dr. Dr ink e r 1 9 on the pho ne, whenever i t was. late ' 3 7 o r 2 0 '38, and told him that y ou felt that t h e 2 1 results that he was comi n g up with w ere n ' t 2 2 reflective of your produ c t , you were b a sing 2 3 that opini on upon, appar e n 11 y , p r e v i o u s 2 4 scientific literature? 2 5 A. Well, more especially on the fact GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 85 WATER PCB-SD0000029520 1 that we had -- that we had been 2 manufacturing the material with no 3 particular problem at all, and we had no 4 reports of any injuries at all from our 5 customers. 6 Q. How long had you been 7 manufacturing the product at that time? 8 A. Since they bought it from Swann, 9 w h i c h was before I came, so it must have 1 0 been 19 3 5 1 1 Q So - 1 2 A . 11 was two t o three years. 1 3 Q . That Monsanto was manufacturing 1 4 it? 1 5 A. That's correct. 1 6 Q So, you were basi ng your opinion 1 7 upon two to three years of experience, 1 8 then, i s that correct? 1 9 A . That's correct. 2 0 Q. Do you know what Swann's prior 2 1 experience had been with the product; that 22 is, when you spoke to Dr. Drinker, did you i 2 3 know what Swann's prior experience was? 2 4 A. With which product? First of 2 5 all, we weren't sure what Drinker had. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 86 WATER PCB-SD0000029521 1 Q Right. You weren't sure w h a 2 Drinker had because it was different f 3 what you believed your experience to b 4 A . And was d i f f erent from what 5 really tested. It was honest to goodn 6 chlorinated biphenyl. so it was d i f f e r e n t 7 from that. It was 1 0 or 2 0 times as t o x i c 8 as the material we sen t him. which was our 9 production run of 1268 . S o , what was the 1 0 question? 1 1 Q. I'm trying to understand, when 1 2 you spoke to Dr. Drinker in the late ' 3 0 ' s 1 3 out the studies that h e had d o n e a t 1 4 r v a r d University , w h e t h e r y o u were b a s i n g 1 5 u r op ini on that his r e s u Its w e r e o f f o n 1 6 1 e 1 y the years of Mo n s a n t o ' s e xper i e nee 1 7 with the product, or also including Swann 1 8 Chemical's prior experience? 1 9 A. That's correct. 2 0 Q. You included Swann Chemical's 2 1 prior experience? 2 2 A. Well, I don't know if I did or 2 3 not. I mean, I don't think I can speak for 24 Swann. Because I told him we have had no 25 ill effects from our customers who used it GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 87 WATER PCB-SD0000029522 1 in hundreds of thousands of pounds, and 2 that information would be derived only from 3 Monsanto produced PCB's. 4 Q. What was the product being used 5 for a t t h a t t i m e i n the mid to late ' 3 0 ' s ? 6 A Ag a i n / w h ich product? The one he 7 t e s ted f i r s t o r sec o n d ? 8 Q Y o u r s tuff, PCB's. 9 A I t w a s u s ed for deluster i n g 1 0 ray o n , i t w a s u s e d for waxes, othe r things. 1 1 1 u b r i c ant s . I ' m n o t exactly sure all the 1 2 t h i n g s i t w a s u s e d for. It was no t u s e d 1 3 par tic u 1 a r 1 y i n e 1 e ctrical applica t i o n s , 1 4 t h a t I r e cal 1 . 1 5 Q Do Y o u r e member the form i n which 1 6 you were s e 1 1 i ng t h e product? Was i t being 1 7 sold in a wax form. was it being s old i n 1 8 liquid form, was it being sold in powdered 1 9 form? 2 0 A . I think it was p o 2 1 Q The higher c h 1 o r i 2 2 s old in powdered form 2 3 A . Beg pardon . 2 4 Q The higher c h 1 o r i 25 1268? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 8 fl WATER PCB-SD0000029523 1 A. That ' s what I'm talking about . I 2 mean, that may have been a viscus liquid or 3 a solid that was ground up in a powder. 4 The material he probably tested, the 4465, 5 the chlorinated diphenyl benzene, was a 6 solid, I believe. I'm not certain. 7 Q That ' s something he got from 8 Halowax? 9 A . That ' s correct. 1 0 Q Not from Monsanto? 1 1 A . Not from Monsanto. 1 2 Q Do you remember how many 1 3 different levels of chlorination Monsanto 1 4 was selli n g back in those days? 1 5 A . Six to eight, I guess. 1 6 Q Do you remember the ranges? What 1 7 were they, 1244 through 1268? 1 8 A. 1242 up through 1268. Maybe only 1 9 six, I'm not certain. 2 0 Q. To your knowledge, were they all 2 1 sold in powdered form? 2 2 A. No. The lower chlorinated ones 2 3 were liquids. 2 4 Q. And the higher chlorinated were 2 5 sold either as powder or waxes? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 89 WATER PCB-SD0000029524 1 A . We 11, I t h ink the 1 2 6 8 w o u 1 d b 2 t h e only one that w o u 1 d b e e i t h e r a h e a v 3 v i s c u s or a solid. I ' m n o t e x a c t 1 y sure. 4 B u t, certain ly, 1260 was a 1 i quid. 5 Q. The delustering rayon operation, 6 was that done in a closed, sealed fashion, 7 do you know? 8 A. I have no idea how it was used. 9 Q You don't know how the p r o c 1 0 was run? 1 1 A . No . 1 2 Q You don't know how the work 1 3 were expo sed to the material, i f at a 1 4 A . No, I'm no t certain a t all. 1 5 I'm pretty vague about the use of 1268 in 1 6 those days. I mean, I'm not certain about 17 it. 1 8 Q. How about any of your PCB's, what 1 9 were they being used for in those days? 2 0 You said delustering rayon, anything else? 2 1 A. Well, the others were used as a 2 2 dielectric. They were used in waxes, and I 2 3 think they were used in lubricants. 2 4 Q. Waxes for what purpose, to your 2 5 knowledge? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 90 WATER PCB-SD0000029525 1 A . I don't know whether they were 2 used as waxes as a release agent i n 3 foundries or not, I don't know. 4 MR . MAL IN : We have so me p r o b 1 e m 5 about the time peri o d s that you' re t a 1k i ng 6 about. 7 MR. COHEN , What' s the problem ? 8 MR . MA L I N : Well, I o b j e c t to the 9 form of th e questio n . I would a ppreciat e 1 0 it if you could, y o u know. direc t your 1 1 questions to specif i c time perio d s . Are 1 2 you now in the '30' s ? 1 3 MR . COHEN I'm trying t o 1 4 understand what the product s wer e being 1 5 used for a t that t i m e , from this witness ' s 1 6 knowledge. This w i t n e s s j u s t to Id me t h a t 1 7 he called up Dr. Dr ink e r on the telephon e 1 8 sometime i n the late - - mid to late '30' 3 1 9 and discus s e d with him cert ain concerns 2 0 that he had about Dr. Drink e r ' s test 2 1 results as a result o f cert ain factors. and 2 2 I'm trying to test his know ledge of what 2 3 those factors were w h e n he called Dr. 2 4 Drinker on the phone. that' s all 25 MR. MALIN So, w e're talking GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 91 WATER PCB-SD0000029526 1 about the mid to late '3 0 's ? 2 MR. COHEN: I think that's been 3 clear, hasn't it. Doctor? 4 A. I thought we were talking about 5 the 1 9 3 0 ' s . 6 Q. That's right. So, as I 7 understand it. you're not sure of all the 8 uses that the product was put to duri ng 9 that time period in its various 1 0 ch1orinations. You do believe, however, it 1 1 was used for delustering rayon, used as 1 2 lubricants, it was made into waxes for 1 3 various purposes, and it was also -- the 1 4 lower chlorinated compounds were used as 1 5 dielectric fluid? 1 6 A. That's correct. 1 7 Q. As of that time in the late ' 3 0 ' s 1 8 when this study was commissioned by Halowax 1 9 with the cooperation of Monsanto at 2 0 Harvard, at that time had there been any 2 1 prior work done by Monsanto or at the 2 2 request of Monsanto regarding the toxicity 2 3 of PCB's? 2 4 A. Not to my knowledge. 2 5 Q. Would it be fair to say, then, GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 92 WATER PCB-SD0000029527 1 that the results of Dr. Drinker's work sort 2 of became the foundation of a library o f 3 studies done at the request o f o r a t t h e 4 behest of Mons anto and othe r s rega rdi ng the 5 toxicity of PCB's? 6 M R . MALIN : I obj e c t t o the f o r m 7 of that questi on. If you c a n a n s w e r t h a t 8 question -- 9 A . Ido n't know what you me a n . You 1 0 mean that was a foundation o f a 1 i bra r y o f 1 1 tests or -- 1 2 Q . Let me put it thi s way. i f I were 1 3 to open up the drawer in a f i 1 i n g cab i n e t 1 4 and put an env elope in ther e a n d c ailed i t 1 5 "PCB toxicity studies - req u e s t of 1 6 Monsanto," the first thing tha t I w o u 1 d 1 7 find in there would be the Dr i nker s t u d y ? 1 8 MR . M A L I N s I ob j e c t t o the form 1 9 of the questio n. If you th ink you 2 0 understand tha t question -- 2 1 A . I do . But, no, b e c a use S w a n n had 2 2 some work carr ied out by a Dr . F 1 i n n i n New 2 3 York, and we w ere given -- tha t w a s f o u n d 2 4 in the Monsant o files, fina lly made i t s way 25 down to me, and that would pro b a b 1 y b e the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000029528 1 first thi ng in the fil e d r a wer, 2 Q Okay. And d o you k n o w when Dr. 3 Flinn did this work? 4 A . He did it fo r S w a n n , and it must 5 have been '35. 6 Q And were the s e t o x i c i ty studies. 7 also? 8 A . Yes, they we r e 9 Q Animals or e P i d e m i o 1 o g i c a 1 ? 1 0 A . Not epidemio 1 o gy No , it was not 1 1 epidemiol ogical. I do n o t k now if he did 1 2 some pate h tests in an i m a 1 s o r patch tests 1 3 in people . But he did s o m e i n g estions in 1 4 animals. 1 5 Q In any event r the y we re animal 1 6 studies? 1 7 A . Beg pardon? 1 8 Q They were an i m a 1 stud i e s ? 1 9 A . Yes. Except r I ' m not certain 2 0 whether h e did any pat c h t e s t s in a few 2 1 humans or not. I do n o t k n o w . I do not 2 2 remember. 2 3 Q - Do you want t o t a k e a break. 2 4 Doctor? 2 5 A . Not for me. GORE REPORTING COMPANY S T . LOUIS, MISSOURI 94 WATER PCB-SD0000029529 1 Q. Now, as I understand it from your 2 earlier testimony, please correct me if I'm 3 wrong -- 4 A . Earlier today? 5 Q Earlier today. Subs eq u e n t t o 6 this wo r k done by Dr. Dri n k e r , a n y t e s t 7 regardi ng the toxicity of PCB ' s done a t 8 behest o f Monsanto subsequent t 0 that t 9 would h a v e been arranged in on e way o r 1 0 another through your offi c e ? 1 1 A. That's correct. 1 2 Q. So, you are familiar, then, I 1 3 gather, with all of the tests that succeed 1 4 that time? 1 5 A. Yes, sir. 1 6 Q. When was the first time you 1 7 requested epidemiological studies regarding 1 8 the toxicity of PCB's? 1 9 A. I never requested an 2 0 epidemiological study. We haven't been 2 1 talking about that up to now, have we? 2 2 Q. No, we haven't. 2 3 A. What? 2 4 Q. No, we haven't? 2 5 A. I never requested epidemiological GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 95 WATER PCB-SD0000029530 1 studies. You asked toxicological at the 2 same time. Are we going to talk now about 3 toxicological studies? 4 Q . Let me ask you this, just so I'm 5 clear, there was never any time during your 6 tenure of employment with Monsanto Company 7 that you requested epidemiological studies 8 be done to study the toxicity of PCB's in 9 humans? 1 0 A. That's correct. Now, 1 1 epidemiological studies do not study the 1 2 toxicology of a compound. Toxicology is an 13 inherent property of a compound. An 1 4 epidemiological study is one that shows 1 5 whether there has been exposure enough in a 1 6 particular group to a particular compound 1 7 to cause an ill effect on a worker. 1 8 Q. Let me ask you this, with your 1 9 q u a 1 i f i c a t i o n , did you ever order 2 0 epideai o 1 o g i c a 1 s t u die s in order to s t u d y 2 1 the ill e f f e c t upon a human , a work e r o r 2 2 otherwi s e , a s a res u 11 of e xposure t o 2 3 PCB's? 2 4 A . No, s i r , I d id no t . 2 5 Q Was there a n y o n e within the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 96 WATER PCB-SD0000029531 1 organization at Monsanto during the time 2 period we're talking about, 1936 to 1974, 3 that would have had the responsibility for 4 orde ring such studi e s ? 5 A . No, sir. None were d o n e . 6 Q In other words, the r e was no one 7 else who would have been r e s p o n s ible, none 8 were done? 9 A. That's correct. 1 0 Q. During the time period we're 1 1 talking about? 1 2 A. Correct. 1 3 Q. Are you aware of the work that 1 4 has been done at the request of Monsanto 1 5 subsequent to your termination of 1 6 employment? 1 7 A . Yes, sir. 1 8 Q. And do you know if any have been 1 9 done subsequent to the termination of your 2 0 employment, any epidemiological studies? 2 1 A. Yes. There were two 2 2 epidemiological studies carried out at the 2 3 Krummerich plant; one by Zack, Z-a-c-k, I 2 4 believe, and somebody -- Muech, M-u-e-c-h, 25 or something, and the other by William GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 97 WATER PCB-SD0000029532 1 G a f f e y G-a-f-f-e-y. 2 Q. Do you know who ordered those 3 studies done? 4 A. I don't know who ordered those. 5 Q. Have you seen them? 6 A . Yes , I've seen t h e m . 7 Q Now , you s aid Dr. D r i n k e r wrote 8 t h e pro t o c o 1 for his t o x i c o logic a 1 s t u d y 9 b a c k i n the ' 3 0 ' s . Do you know w h o wrote 1 0 t h e pro t o c o 1 for the e p i d e m i o 1 o g i c a 1 1 1 studies done at Krummerich subsequent to 1 2 your termination of employment? 1 3 A. I do not know. 1 4 Q. Would it be fair to say, then, 1 5 all of the studies that you ordered done 1 6 subsequent to 1936, or whenever it was, and 1 7 through 1974 were all animal tests? 18 A. Were all what? 1 9 Q. Animal tests? 2 0 A. We did some patch testing on 2 1 people . 2 2 Q . Who did them? 23 A. The Barnard, B-a-r-n-a-r-d, Skin 2 4 and Cancer Hospital in St. Louis. 25 Q. Barnard, B-a-r-n-a-r-d Skin and GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 98 WATER PCB-SD0000029533 1 Cancer? 2 A . That's ri g h t . 3 Q . When were they done? 4 A . Probably the late ' 4 0 ' s . I'm not 5 sure. 6 Q Did you order those tests? 7 A . Yes, I did. 8 Q Who wrote the protocol for those 9 tests? 1 0 A. Well, the protocol was pretty 1 1 well established by -- in the literature, 1 2 and I don't know if the government had a 1 3 hand in writing that protocol. But this 1 4 dermatologist at Barnard Skin and Cancer 1 5 Hospital followed the standard procedure of 1 6 what is known as a patch test, in which you 1 7 take 200 people and put the material on a 1 8 moistened bit of gauze and cover it over, 1 9 and then leave it on for 48 hours and then 2 0 challenge it again in 48 hours, or a week 2 1 and see what happens. It's nothing to do 2 2 with toxicology at all, it only has to do 2 3 with whether or not a compound is a skin 2 4 sensitizer, such as poison ivy, or skin 2 5 irritant such as terpentine. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 99 WATER PCB-SD0000029534 1 Q In other words no tests were 2 done to determine the absorption rates into 3 the skin, or a n y t h i n g like that? 4 A . No , they wer e not. 5 Q Not in human s ? 6 A . No , not in h u m a n s . 7 Q And no blood draws o n those 8 individua Is were done to see i f the 9 material had been abso r b e d a n d a t w h a 1 0 rate? 1 1 A . No . That w a s not the purpo 1 2 the test. The purpose of t h e t e s t w a 1 3 see the a c t i o n on the skin. 1 4 Q Skin i r r i t a n t ? 1 5 A . Or s kin sens i t i z e r s . 1 6 Q Has it a ski n i r r i t a n t or s 1 7 sensitizer? 1 8 A. No, not on the basis of that 1 9 test. I f you get the material on and leave 2 0 it on for a prolonged period of time you 2 1 could get redness. 22 I Q How many people were involved in 2 3 those Bar n a r d Skin and Cancer Hospital 2 4 tests. d o you know? 25 A. Usually 200. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 10 0 WATER PCB-SD0000029535 1 Q . Do you know what information the 2 subjects were given regarding the substance 3 that they were testing? 4 A. I don't know. 5 Q . Do you know if they were given 6 any warnings about the substance? 7 A. We had certainly no reason to 8 give them any warnings, because we knew the 9 procedure was going to be innocuous. We 1 0 had people that h a d been expos e d t o their 1 1 skin during the m a nufacture of the m a t e r i a 1 1 2 for years and had no problems. s o w e did 1 3 not tell these people we were going to put 1 4 an inch square piece of gauze on you soaked 1 5 with PCB and you'd better watch out, 1 6 because we knew nothing was going to 1 7 happen. 1 8 Q And that i s , again, based upon 1 9 your e x p e rience in the manufacturing? 2 0 A . Yes, sir. 2 1 Q What was the purpose of the test. 2 2 then? 23 A. To see if the material was a skin 2 4 sensitizer or skin irritant. 2 5 Q. What information did you have GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 10 1 WATER PCB-SD0000029536 1 from your own manufacturing end with 2 respect to it being a skin irritant or skin 3 sensitizer? 4 A. We didn't have any, but we had 5 -- were going to use it in a new -- I 6 don't know which PCB it was, it was going 7 to be used in a vinyl film that would be 8 covering auto seats and other things, and 9 if we had somebody sitting down there in 1 0 shorts, we wanted to b e sure they w o u 1 d n ' t 1 1 get sensitized to the materia 1 and bre a k 1 2 out with a p o i son i v y- like r a s h . 1 3 Q Did it go in to m a n u facture? 1 4 A . 0 h , yes. It was us e d f o r a long. 1 5 long time in v i n y 1 -- as a v i n y 1 1 6 plasticizer, and no ca s e s of skin 1 7 irritation or skin sen s i t i z a t ion. 18 Q. Do you know of any other 1 9 epidemiological studie s that have been done 2 0 on Monsanto employees, other than the two 2 1 that you've identified 7 2 2 MR . MALIN : I o b j e c t to the form 23 of the question. I do n't t hi n k he cal led 2 4 that last one an epide m i o 1 o g i cal s t u d y , did 2 5 you? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 102 WATER PCB-SD0000029537 1 A . We talked about the Zack and the 2 Gaffey studies. Zack and Gaffey. I know 3 of no others. 4 MR . COHEN : Do you know of any 5 other tests that were done on human beings 6 at the behest of Monsanto, other than the 7 epidemiological studies that we've 8 discussed and this skin patch test that . 9 we've discussed? 1 0 A. Well, wait. An epidemiological 1 1 study is not a test on people. Let's break 1 2 this down. I mean, we aren't testing 1 3 people in an epidemiological study, you're 1 4 going over some records, death certificates 1 5 in one case and medical records in 1 6 another. So, there is no human direct 1 7 involvement in an epidemiological test. 1 8 Now, the only -- we do not do 1 9 toxicological tests on people, with the 2 0 exception of patch testing. 2 1 Q . Why is that, sir? 2 2 A. Why? 2 3 Q. Yes. Why? 24 A . Because you test a product to 25 find out in an animal what the target organ GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 1 03 WATER PCB-SD0000029538 1 is and what harm can result And w e re not 2 going to subject a human being to that 3 particular test to find out. The standard 4 test on an animal is one that kills half 5 the animals, and I do not believe that any 6 responsible investigator would carry out 7 such a test on humans. 8 Q. What do you expect to do with the 9 results of the animal studies? 1 0 MR. MALIN: I'll object to the 1 1 form of that question. If you think you 1 2 understand that question, you can answer. 1 3 A. Well, I guess I do. We use the 1 4 results of the animal testing to provide a 1 5 basis for safe handling procedures for our 1 6 workersand our customers. 1 7 Q. Would it be fair to say that you 1 8 make an assumption that the results of the 1 9 animal tests are indicators of what could 2 0 happen in humans? 2 1 MR. MALIN: I object to the form 2 2 of that question. Answer the question, if 2 3 you understand it. 2 4 A . No, I don 't think it's f a i 2 5 i say that. Because, first of all. t h GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 104 WATER PCB-SD0000029539 1 animal testing to find out the basic 2 toxicity is not freely transcribeable or 3 t r a n s p o s e d t o h uman -- t o the hum a n 4 s p e ci.es . It m a y or may not . That ' s a 11 we 5 h a v e , o b v i o u s 1 y , a s far a s how you go 6 a r o u n d t e sting . You t e s t o n a n i m a 1 s , you 7 don ' t t e s t on h u m a n s . S e c o n d 1 y , h o w e v e r , 8 w e base a great deal o f our opinio n on what 9 has been the hi story o f the worker s , w hat 1 0 has been the hi story o f the users . I f 1 1 t h o s e are n e g a t i v e , that g i v e s us a v e r y 1 2 s t r o n g cl u e as to t h e to x i c i t y of the 1 3 mat erial in certain expo s u r e occurance s . 1 4 Q Now, you said i t may or may not 1 5 be transferable to humans? 1 6 A. That's correct. 1 7 Q. The results of the animal test? 1 8 A. That's correct. 1 9 Q. Under what circumstances, in your 2 0 opinion. would the results of the animal 2 1 tests be t r a n s ferable to human experience? 2 2 MR . MALIN: I object to the form 2 3 of that question. If you think you 2 4 understand that question, go ahead and 2 5 answer. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 105 WATER PCB-SD0000029540 1 A . I f you had several spe c i e s o f 2 animals and you h ad the same tar ge t or g a n 3 Q I n t h e s e animals, one m i g h t 4 conclude that the human species w o uld 5 respond in the same way with the same 6 target organ. If you had metabolic studies 7 that showed that the animal metabolized the 8 material the same way the human did, you, 9 again, could think these results could be 1 0 transposable. 1 1 Q Can you read back that answer? 1 2 (The r e quested po r t i o n of the 1 3 record read by the reporter). 1 4 MR. COHEN: You had a lot of 1 5 qualifying terms in there. Doctor, like 1 6 "might conclud e." What would i t be about 1 7 these results that would caus e y o u to 1 8 conclude that the results of the animal 1 9 studies would be transferable t o humans ? 2 0 MR. MALIN: I object to the form 2 1 of the question. 2 2 A. I don't know what that question 2 3 says. 2 4 MR . COHEN : I'm referring to your 2 5 last answer, Doctor. I asked you a GORE R EPORTI NG COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 1 06 WATER PCB-SD0000029541 1 question, under what circurastanc e s you 2 would want to use the results of the animal 3 studies or transfer it to humans, and you 4 said if you had in several species the same 5 target organ, then one might conclude that 6 the same target organ would exist in 7 humans. Do you recall that part of your 8 prior answer? 9 A. Yes, I recall that. 1 0 Q. Now, what I'm asking you is, you 1 1 said "might conclude;" what factors would 1 2 cause one to conclude that you would have 1 3 the same target organ in humans? 1 4 MR. MALIN: Again, same 1 5 objection. If you think you understand 1 6 that question. Doctor, you may answer. 1 7 A. Well, I'll do my best. If you 1 8 had a history of some of these same 1 9 conditions happening in human workers, you 2 0 might say yes, the animal studies can be 2 1 transferable. But, this is all we have to 2 2 go on, we can only go on animal studies. 2 3 They are not a hundred percent accurate - 2 4 I mean, a hundred percent transferable. 2 5 Chloracne does not occur from the feeding GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 107 WATER PCB-SD0000029542 1 of PCB's in animals, it does occur from the 2 feeding of PCB's in humans. Which was 3 inadvertent feeding, obviously -- not 4 feeding, from the ingestion of PCB's in 5 accidents. Non-industrial accidents, 6 ex-U.S.A. accidents. 7 Q. What are you referring to? 8 A. To the Yusho and the YuCheng 9 episode in Japan and Taiwan. 1 0 Q . Can chloracne occur in humans 1 1 other than through the route of ingestion, 1 2 to your knowledge? 1 3 A. Oh, yes. By inhalation, by 1 4 absorption through the skin. 1 5 Q. Do you believe that ingestion of 1 6 PCB's occurs in the work place on an 1 7 accidental basis through a person licking 1 8 their lips or perspiring into their mouth 1 9 or nose and swallowing it? 2 0 MR. MALIN : I object to the form 2 1 of the question. If you think you 2 2 understand that question -- 2 3 A. Will you repeat the question? 2 4 (The requested portion of the 2 5 record read by the reporter). GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 108 WATER PCB-SD0000029543 1 MR. COHEN: Let me see if I can 2 clarify it. I'll ask a new question. Do 3 you believe that there are other routes of 4 ingestion -- I'm not talking about 5 absorption through skin, but ingestion of 6 PCB's in the work place other than through 7 the accidental -- other than through the 8 route of accidentally or unintentionally 9 eating it, such as in the Yusho and Yu 1 0 Cheng incidents? 1 1 MR. MALIN: I'll object to the 1 2 form of the question because it doesn't 1 3 really define the work place, level of 1 4 exposure and what's happening, what's 1 5 available. 1 6 MR. COHEN: I'm not talking about 1 7 levels of exposure. 1 8 A. I think it would be 1 9 infinitesimal. 2 0 Q Infinites i m a 1 . But y u ag r e 2 1 t h a t the factors th a t your c o u n s e 1 j u s 2 2 wen t through, that i s , the 1 e v e 1 o f 2 3 exp osure, duration o f expo s u r e , e t c e t 2 4 w o u 1 d all impact up o n how inf ini t e s i m a 2 5 that level of ingestion was? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI [ WATER PCB-SD0000029544 1 A. My counsel had nothing to do with 2 it, it was your explanation of saying 3 somebody has PCB on a cigarette and they 4 put the cigarette in their mouth, how much 5 PCB are they liable to get. I said that's 6 so minute it doesn't even need to be 7 thought about as ingestion. 8 Q. How about if it was on their 9 table where they ate their lunch? 1 0 A. It doesn't follow the lines that 1 1 -- I can't conceive -- you'll have to 1 2 tell me how much is on the table. Is it 1 3 flowing with PCB's while he's eating his 1 4 ham sandwich? 1 5 Q. In other words, you're saying 1 6 that all of these factors, that is, the 1 7 amount that's there, how long it's been 1 8 there, and all of these other factors all 1 9 would come into play as to how 2 0 infinitesimal that ingestion would be? 2 1 A. I would say that in my 40 years 2 2 of going through PCB plants, any 2 3 possibility of ingestion was so minute as 2 4 to be completely disregarded. 25 Q. And chloracne, you agree,does GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 110 WATER PCB-SD0000029545 1 come from absorption into the body other 2 than through ingestion? 3 A. That is correct? 4 A. It occurs through dermal 5 absorption in humans? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. But not in animals? 8 A. There is a little difference of 9 opinion there, whether a rabbit can show 1 0 chloracne by multiple applications. Some 1 1 people say yes, some people say no. I'm 12 not convincedeither way. But usual dermal 1 3 application to animals has not resulted in 1 4 chloracne. Feeding of animals for two 1 5 years of PC B has not caused chloracne 1 6 Q Do you agree that PCB's are toxic 1 7 in animal s at at least the same rate when 1 8 those PCB's are absorbed through dermal 1 9 absorption as they are through ingestion? 2 0 MR. MALIN: I object to the form 2 1 of that question. If you think you 2 2 understand it, please attempt to answer 23 i t . 2 4 A. I don't think you can make that 2 5 general -- that general conclusion. I GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 111 WATER PCB-SD0000029546 1 mean, it might be in the same ball park. 2 There have notbeen repeated dermal tests 3 on animals over three weeks or four weeks, 4 whereas there have been repeated human - 5 I mean,repeated animal tests for a period 6 of two years. So, it's awfully hard to 7 make that comparison. But I would say that 8 it depends on the way the material is 9 applied, depends on the investigator, it 1 0 depends on the animal. 1 1 MR . COHEN : S o / a g a i n , there are 1 2 o t h e r f actors that wo u 1 d a f f e c t your 1 3 w i 1 ling ness to accept a n y sue h conclusi on? 1 4 A . Nell , with the e x c e P t ion I s a id, 1 5 the -- they're both s o r t o f i n the s a m e 1 6 ball park. 1 7 Q. So that the toxicity, whether 1 8 it's through ingestion or dermal 1 9 absorption, in your opinion, is not 2 0 significantly affected? 2 1 A . W e 1 1 / yes. T o pa raphrase you. 2 2 the mater i a 1 i s toxic i f t a ken by mouth 2 3 sue h q u a n t i t i e s . 11 i s t o X i c by a b s o r p t 2 4 i f you ha v e s u f f i c i e n t pr 0 1 o n g e d skin 25 absorption, certainly. But that is a GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 112 WATER PCB-SD0000029547 1 property that occurs in a hundred thousand 2 industrial chemicals 3 Q Including PCB's? 4 A . Including PCB. It's an 5 industria 1 chemical. obviously, it's not 6 intended to be a food additive, it's not 7 intended to be ingested. 8 Q. It was, however, added to 9 plasticizers for seat covers for cars? 1 0 A. That's correct. 1 1 Q. And a number of other commercial 1 2 consumer products? 1 3 A. Yes, sir. 1 4 Q. Over the years. What is LD 50? 1 5 A. LD 50 is a term used by 1 6 toxicologists to denote the dose that kills 1 7 half of a group of animals. LD meaning 1 8 lethal dose, 50 meaning 50 percent. 1 9 Q. The LD 50 for oral ingestion of 2 0 PCB's was established in certain species or 2 1 in certain strains of rats during the '50's 2 2 or ' 60 ' s, was it not? 2 3 A. Yes. 2 4 Q. And what was it established at, 2 5 do you remember? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI i i "5 WATER PCB-SD0000029548 1 A. Well, it varied with the chi 2 concentration. It varied with the a n i 3 Rabbits were more suscept i b 1 e than rat 4 mice or dogs. 5 Q. And that was oral ingestion we're 6 talking about, now? 7 A . Also, skin a b s orption; there wer 8 s o m e skin studies don e . 9 Q Le t's talk a b o u t LD 5 0 throu g h 1 0 ora 1 i n g e s t i on. Was t h a t e s t a b 1 i shed i n 1 1 rat s ? 1 2 A . Y e s, sir. 1 3 Q Wh at was t h e m ode , if Y o u w i 1 1 , 1 4 o f its t o x i c reaction t h a t ultima t e 1 y 1 5 c a u s e d the d eath of the subject a n i m a 1 , d o 1 6 you know? 1 7 MR . MALIN : I o b j e c t to the form 1 8 o f the q u e s t ion . If you u n derstand th a t , 1 9 go ahead. 2 0 MR . COHEN: L e t m e restate i t as 2 1 s i m ply as I can. How d i d i t act to k i 1 1 2 2 the animal s ? 2 3 A . I don't think t h a t was 2 4 e s t ablished. because i n the acute stud i e s 2 5 the animals died with i n 2 4 to 4 8 hours . GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI iid WATER PCB-SD0000029549 1 Whether it was a general toxic effect or 2 whether it had any particular organ 3 specificity, I do not believe that was 4 established. 5 Q. Was that ever established, to 6 your knowledge? 7 A. Well, it's awful hard to 8 establish the mode of action on an acute 9 poisoning. You do an autopsy, of course, 1 0 and there is all the features that occur 1 1 with death. You have congestion of the 1 2 liver, you have congestion of the lungs, 1 3 you have heart failure. What actually 1 4 killed the animal, I do not believe it's 1 5 been established. It's been established in 1 6 chronic cases. 1 7 Q. And in the chronic cases, what is 1 8 the established toxic reaction? 1 9 A . Presumably, the liver. 2 0 Q What is the affect on th e liver? 2 1 A . It disturbs some of the enzymes, 2 2 oxidative procedures i n the liver. I can't 2 3 you any more than that. 2 4 Q I s that because you do n't k n o 2 5 A . That's because I don't know a GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 115 WATER PCB-SD0000029550 1 the present time, yes. I'm not a 2 pharmacologist . 3 Q. Would you agree that a 4 pharmacologist would be a person who could 5 tell us the toxic reaction, if you will? 6 A. Well, you get down into some very 7 involved enzymatic chemistry, yes, which 8 would be certainly more than I know. 9 Q. You said you're not a 1 0 pharmacologist? 1 1 A . I ' m not a pharmacologi s t . He 1 2 w e 1 1 be able to tell you. 1 3 Q That would be the spec ialty one 1 4 to? 1 5 A . That ' s right. That's why we had 1 6 toxicologiss ttss . 1 7 Q. I'm sorry? 1 8 A. That's why Monsanto had 1 9 toxicologists. 2 0 Q. Were they pharmacologists? 2 1 A. The first one was. They both 2 2 were. 2 3 Q. So, they were toxicologists, 2 4 deemed toxicologists even though their 2 5 actual specialty was pharmacology? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 16 WATER PCB-SD0000029551 1 A . I n those day_ s there was n o 2 specialty of toxicology. A person was 3 primarily a pharmacologist who became 4 interested in toxicology. 5 Q. Tell me, sir, in the experience 6 that you had, since there were no actual 7 tests done on humans, but in theexperience 8 that Monsanto had with humans, was there 9 any toxic reaction shown in the liver of 1 0 humans? 1 1 A. No, sir, there was not. 12 Q. Did you receivereports of 1 3 persons receiving exposure to PCB's and 1 4 subsequently dying from liver ailments? 1 5 A. I never did. 1 6 Q. Did you see reports in the 1 7 literature that human beings had been 1 8 exposed to PCB's and succumbed from liver 1 9 ailments? 2 0 A . The s t u d i e s , or - - t h ere w e r e 2 1 reports in the 1 iterature about the H a 1 o w a x 2 2 studies. As I said, one of those Halowaxes 2 3 was alleged to have 10 percent PCB's in it, 2 4 which these -- as I said earlier in my 2 5 testimony, thi s was not PCB's, this was GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 117 WATER PCB-SD0000029552 1 chlorinated diphenyl benzene. With that 2 exception A n d, of course r there w e r e 3 liver dea t h s i n the Halowa X cases . The r e 4 had been n o 1 i ver deaths i n e x p o s u r e t o 5 PCB's, wi t h t h e exception - - well r the r e 6 have been n o 1 iver deaths. There h a v e been 7 no liver injuries with the exception of 8 acute exposure to PCB's at elevated 9 temperatures in leaking heat transfer 1 0 apparatus. 1 1 Q In 1eaking -- 1 2 A . H e a t transfer apparatus. 1 3 Q A r e y ou talkin g , again. about 1 4 Yusho and Yu C h eng? 1 5 A . N o No . What I'm t a 1k i n g a b out 1 6 is these p e o pie had an j erryrigged heat 1 7 transfer con t r a ption whe re the hea t is out 1 8 here and the f 1 uid going through , i t 1 9 leaked, so they breathed it for they days 2 0 before three got around to fixing it, and 2 1 they developed jaundice and got well. 2 2 There has been one report of those cases. 2 3 Those three people got well. That's the 2 4 only one I know. 2 5 Q. That was, however, a toxic GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 1 18 WATER PCB-SD0000029553 1 o the liver of a human being? 2 Acute toxic react ion. that's 3 right. 4 Q. You had, just in your last answer 5 prior to this one, referred again to the 6 Halowax studies; that, of course, involved 7 animals? 8 A. What? 9 Q. The Halowax studies involved 1 0 animals? 1 1 A. Well, no. A lot of workers -- 1 2 not a lot, but there were very many 1 3 illnesses and deaths from using Halowax 1 4 back in 1935 and 1936. You had it at wire 1 5 pulling operations. 1 6 Q. And those individuals died from 1 7 liver ailments? 1 8 A. That's correct. 1 9 Q S o , when you were t a 1 k i n g about 2 0 Hal o w a x a few minutes ago i n you r previous 2 1 a n s w e r , you were not r e f e r r i n g t o D r . 2 2 Drinker's studies? 2 3 A. I was not, no. 2 4 Q. But you know of no fatalities 2 5 from liver ailments reported in the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 119 WATER PCB-SD0000029554 1 literature in humans from exposure 2 PC B ' s ? 3 A . That ' s c o rre c t 4 Q You d o k n o w o f p e o p 1 e bee o m i n g 5 sickened with j a u n d ice a n d r e c o V e r i n g ? 6 A . Yes, sir. I m i g h t m e n t i o n , in 7 response to t h a t s e con d last q u e s t i on, 8 there may be reports in the lite rat u r e , 9 case reports where somebody says I had a 1 0 man die of liver problems that w a s exposed 1 1 to PCB 15 years ago. There may h a v e been 1 2 some of those in some obscure jo urn a 1 , I 1 3 don't know. 1 4 MR. MALIN: Doctor, he's not 1 5 asking you to speculate, he wants t o 1 6 know -- 1 7 A. I do not know of any. 1 8 MR. COHEN: Let's go back 1 9 Doctor. You had apparently partici p a t e d in 2 0 the securing of certain studies sub sequent 2 1 to 1936 or '37 in animals to study the 2 2 toxic properties o f PCB ' s ? 23 A. Yes, s i r . 2 4 Q. When w a s the first time y o u were 2 5 involved in securing such studies? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI j WATER PCB-SD0000029555 I 1 A I know that in 1954 we secured 2 the services of the University of 3 Cincinnati. We may have secured one or two 4 toxicological laboratories in St. Louis, 5 where we would run acute screening tests. 6 We may have some of those reports prior to 7 1954. I'm not certain when we did it. 8 Q. Now, we have the University of 9 Cincinnati, and we have, I think you said 1 0 screening tests? 1 1 A. Run at the Younger, 1 2 Y-o-u-n-g-e-r, or -- I forget the name of 1 3 t h e other one. I'll think of it later o n 1 4 11 was another acute t e s t i n g o u t f it in S t 1 5 Louis. 1 6 Q What do you mean by acute 1 7 testing? 1 8 A . Well, w e ran screening t e s t s 0 n 1 9 one dose levels o f the material, We wo u 1 d 2 0 -- you c o u 1 d t e s t it in the eyes to s e e if 2 1 it was an eye irr itant, you can te s t it o n 2 2 the skin to see i f it was absorbed thro ugh 2 3 the skin to cause problems, and yo u w o u 1 d 2 4 test for the L D 5 0. That's an acu t e t e s t . 2 5 Q So, you were testing, ba s i c a 1 1 Y / GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 12 1 WATER PCB-SD0000029556 1 one application? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. Or an application of a high level 4 over a short period of time from either 5 ingestion or direct applications to skin or 6 an eye or some other external -- 7 A. Or volatilize it and have an 8 animal breathe it. 9 Q. Have them breathe it in. That's 1 0 a short term, high dosage exposure? 1 1 A. That's correct. 1 2 Q. Other than acute testing, did you 1 3 ever do chronic exposure testing? . 1 4 A. Ever? 1 5 Q. Yes . 1 6 A. Yes. Certainly, in the -- back 17 in ** IT) t h e s t u f f h ad - -- the Univers 1 8 Cincinna t i w a s 1 5 0 days o r something, 1 9 12 0 days o r s o m e t h i n g , t h a t was consi 2 0 chronic a t t h a t t i m e . The n we carrie 2 1 chronic f e e d i ng studies a t Indus trial 2 2 B i o t e s t ' S lab orator i e s i n Chicago in 23 1960 ' s . 2 4 Q. Any other product tests? 2 5 A. That Monsanto arranged? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 122 WATER PCB-SD0000029557 1 Q Yes. 2 A . No. 3 Q. Let's go back. You were telling 4 me about the tests that you had done in the 5 mid '50's; is it fair to say that there 6 were no tests done at Monsanto's behest 7 from the late '30 ' s when the Hal o w a x 8 were done by Dr. Drinker t o the mid 9 A. I don't think it's f a i r to 1 0 that, because I said that when I came back 1 1 i n '46, we may very well have done acute 1 2 t e s ting at one of -- the other laboratory 1 3 was Scientific Associate s -- at either 1 4 Younger Labora tories or Scientific 1 5 Ass o c i a t e s i n St. Louis, we may have done 1 6 some of those at that ti 1 7 certain when we did that 1 8 Q You don't r e c a 1 9 A . Beg pardon? 2 0 Q You don't r e c a 2 1 A . I don ' t recall whether we did 2 2 that before ' 5 4 or after '54. 2 3 Q. What were the results of the 2 4 tests that were done prior to '54? 2 5 A. Prior to what? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 12 3 WATER PCB-SD0000029558 1 Q '54. 2 A . I f they were done pr i o r t o '54? 3 Hell, it gave us the acute LD 5 0 pre tty 4 close to what Drinker had, in the r a n g e of 5 4 or 5 grams per kilogram for a rat. 6 Q. To your knowledge, were these 7 specially bread rats? 8 A. Specially bread for what? 9 Q. Any particular purpose. 1 0 A. I guess they were theplain 1 1 laboratory rats that the rat suppliers sold 1 2 to the laboratories, I don't know. 1 3 Q. So, you don't know? 1 4 A. I don't know. 1 5 Q. So, you don't know if these rats 1 6 had any particular susceptibility to this 1 7 chemical or if any of their organs were 1 8 particularly susceptible to this kind of 1 9 material? 2 0 A. No, I don't know, Until we got 2 1 the results, they certainly weren't very 2 2 susceptible to it. 23 Q I'm sorry? 2 4 A . They weren' t very susceptible to 2 5 it coming out with a n LD 5 0 of 4, which is GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 124 WATER PCB-SD0000029559 1 something like salt. 2 Q. Now, the animals that survived, 3 were they subsequently sacrificed, to your 4 knowledge? 5 A . No, s i r . I'm sure the y were 6 sacrificed . I m e a n , they were u s e d on 7 something. but the y were -- his t o p a t h o logy 8 was not done on t h e m , if that ' s w h at y o u ' r e 9 asking about. The y were not don e . 1 0 Q. Not done? 1 1 A. Not done. 1 2 Q. To your knowledge, were all of 1 3 the animals ultimately destroyed either 1 4 through the testing, that is, they 1 5 succumbed to the substance, or subsequently 1 6 sacrificed? 1 7 A. Not to my knowledge. But that's 1 8 the common practice in a toxicological 1 9 laboratory, they don't use the survivors 2 0 for the next experiment coming along. 2 1 Q. They don't send them out on the 2 2 street, or anything like that? 2 3 A. I can't hear you. 2 4 Q. They don't send them out on the 2 5 street, or anything like that? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 125 WATER PCB-SD0000029560 1 A . I don't think so. 2 MR. MALIN: Don't speculate. 3 MR. COHEN: In any event, no 4 follow-up work, to your knowledge, was ever 5 done on these animals that were subjected 6 to these acute studies? 7 A . No , sir. 8 Q All right. Tell me about the 9 studies that were done in the mid ' 5 0 ' s ? 1 0 A . I n the mid ' 5 0 ' s , we were using 1 1 P C B ' s a s a die cast hydraulic fluid. and 1 2 a heat transfer agent. 1 3 Q You said as a die cast? 1 4 A . Die cast, yes. 1 5 Q Hydraulic? 1 6 A . Fluid. 1 7 Q What do you mean by that. sir? 1 8 A. Well, you have a pressure source 1 9 here and you want to get that pressure over 2 0 to this particular die, you've got to 2 1 transfer it by hydraulic means, like your 2 2 hydraulic brakes. 2 3 Q . So, you were using it as a 2 4 hydraulic fluid? 2 5 A. A transfer of power, yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000029561 1 Q. Just a moment, That system 2 s h ould have been a sealed system, isn't 3 t h at right? 4 A . Well, they nev e r are. I mean. 5 t h y leak all the time. I mean. because 6 t h die i s being pushed out , air i s 7 pr s s u r e , and the materi a 1 comes out. 8 T h ere is exposure. It's not sealed into a 9 P i ston where a piston pushes it out, there 1 0 a r e leaks all the time. And it may very 1 1 w e 11 be -- I've never been in a die casting 1 2 o p eration, but there is always leakage of 1 3 t h e material. I mean , because that's why 1 4 t h e plants caught on fire, and that's why 1 5 t h ey wanted a non -- a fire resistant 1 6 f 1 uid. So, the question was, if this thing 1 7 d r ops on hot metal, what's the reaction of 1 8 t h e worker to this dropping on this hot 19 meta1 . 2 0 Q. What is your source of 2 1 information about the leakage of the fluid 2 2 from the die casting machinery and th e 2 3 plants catching on fire? 2 4 A . Well, what I read i n the 25 newspaper about the General M otors ant GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 127 WATER PCB-SD0000029562 1 where it leaked, and they had a 14 million 2 dollar fire, burned down the whole 3 apparatus. So, it leaked. 4 Q. So, your source of information on 5 how this occurs, then, was the newspaper 6 article? 7 A . Well, it's talking to various 8 engineers, engineers that were in our 9 company and engineers -- industrial 1 0 hygienists that had gone into these 11 plants. Yes, they knew itleaked. 1 2 Q. So, do I understand it that this 1 3 information came to you as the medical 1 4 director at Monsanto Company sometime prior 1 5 to the mid ' 50 ' s, and this led to the 1 6 creation of a protocol for a study? 1 7 A. That is correct. 1 8 Q. What would have been your usual 1 9 sources of information that would have 2 0 caused you to determine that a study should 2 1 be investigated? 2 2 MR. MALIN: I object to the form 2 3 of that question. If you think you 2 4 understand that question -- 2 5 A. Well, I don't know what he means GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 1 28 WATER PCB-SD0000029563 1 by usual sources . 2 MR . M A L I N : I don't. 3 M R . COHEN: I 1' m t r y i 4 understand. How is it that it came about 5 that Monsanto would decide to undertake a 6 particular test? 7 A . Okay. Here I have a department 8 that's got a couple of chemical engineers, 9 or industrial hygienists, I go to a meeting 1 0 where there are industrial hygie n i s t s from 1 1 the state, from other companies. from the 1 2 government, and the question -- there are 1 3 papers published about exposures in v a r i o u s 1 4 industries, and I ' m talking to them at 1 5 meetings, and I get information that adds 1 6 up to the fact that die casting machines 1 7 leak. That's where I got it. 1 8 Q . That ' s die casting mac h i n e s 1 9 Other tests were p e r f o r m e d o t h e r than 2 0 t e s t i n g the material on this hot molt 2 1 metal ; what would b e the sou r c e o f 2 2 information there that caused Monsanto to 2 3 decide to investigate particular 2 4 toxicologic properties? 2 5 A. I would say that die casting GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS, MISSOURI | 129 WATER PCB-SD0000029564 1 problem was the most serious one. The 2 other was that there may always be leaks in 3 heat transfer apparatuses where you have a 4 heat transfer source and you have welded 5 pipe. And that goes to whatever you want 6 to heat up, whether it's French fries or 7 fish food or anything else. And those can 8 leak. 9 Q. Did your department maintain any 1 0 documentation of information that you 1 1 received that you applied before you 1 2 decided to investigate a particular 1 3 scenario? 1 4 A. No, sir. And I'm not so sure 1 5 when we got the information about heat 1 6 transfer -- the realization that heat 1 7 transfer agents were a problem until they 1 8 had the Yusho and Yu Cheng episodes. I'm 1 9 not sure. 2 0 Q. Is that what you were talking 2 1 about when you were talking about heat 2 2 transfer agents with heating up French 2 3 fries or fish food or something like that? 2 4 A . That ' s what I was talking about . 2 5 Q. Yusho and Yu Cheng? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 130 WATER PCB-SD0000029565 1 A. That's right. 2 Q In o t h e r words, in the Yusho and 3 Yu Che n g incident , PCB fluid was in a heat 4 transf e r mechanis m of some type, 5 transf err in g the heat from t h e h eat source 6 to oil that was b e i n g used f o r c onsumption 7 or in the prepara t i o n of cons u m a b1e food, 8 and it w a s in t h a t cir c u m s t a n c e that the 9 PCB f 1 u i d leaked into the oil ? 1 0 A You h a v e to qualify t h e PCB 1 1 fluid. The PCB used there was K anneclor, 1 2 which is a Japanese PCB, which i s 1 3 manufactured by a different proc ess than 1 4 Monsanto. There were contaminan t s in the 1 5 PCB fluid that were later found by the 1 6 Japanese and Chinese scientists to be 1 7 responsible for the problems, ra ther than 1 8 the PCB itself. 1 9 Q. What were those contain i n a n t s 2 0 called? 2 1 A. Chlorinated dibenzofur a n s , 2 2 chlorinated quaterphenyls. 2 3 Q. Now, you said that the Kanneclor 2 4 was made by a different process o f 25 manufacture? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 13 1 WATER PCB-SD0000029566 1 A . That ' s correct. 2 Q. What's your source of information 3 on that? 4 A . The scientists at Monsanto. 5 Q They tell you it's a different 6 m a n u f a c tur ing process? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q What do you understand to be t 9 process of manufacture of Monsanto's PCB 1 0 fluid? 1 1 A . You take ben zene, run it into a 1 2 k e t a n e pot reactor o f molten lead. you join 1 3 the two benzene radicals together, and you 1 4 distill it out of there into another 1 5 reactor and you chlorinate it. 1 6 Q, You're going too fast for me. 1 7 A. Okay. 1 8 Q. You take benzene? 1 9 A. Benzene. 2 0 Q. Is that phenyl? 2 1 A. No. Benzene is -- phenyl has got 2 2 an OH radical hooked onto it. Benzene is 23 C6 , -- C6H . 24 Q . C6H? 25 A . 6 . GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 2 WATER PCB-SD0000029567 1 Q. C6H6. Okay. And then what do 2 you d o , you run it int o a pot of molten 3 lead ? 4 A . That's right , to make diphenyl . 5 The two together . 6 Q So, the resu It is it c omes out a 7 a d i p h e n y i? 8 A . That's right . Then you take thi 9 d i p h eny 1 and chlorinat e it by adding 1 0 c h 1 o rine to various -- displacin g hydrogen 1 1 from var ious parts of this diphe ny 1 1 2 mole c u 1 e 1 3 Q And how do y ou do that ? 1 4 A . By running i n nascent chlorine. 1 5 n - a - s - c - e-n-t chlorine , gaseous chlorine . 1 6 Q . How do you c ontrol the level of 1 7 chlorina t i o n ? 1 8 A . I'm not a ma nufacturin g chemist, 1 9 I don't know. But the y do it. 2 0 Q So, you don' t know? 2 1 A . I don't know that, no. 2 2 Q . Did the chem ist at Mon santo tell 23 you this is the basic process? 2 4 A . Well, I saw this proce s s , so I 2 5 know what the process is, yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 133 WATER PCB-SD0000029568 1 Q You saw the process don e ? 2 A . Yes. I was a t the plan t . 3 Q But someone had t o e x p 1 ain to you 4 was going o n i n the plan t , i s that 5 right? 6 A . Yes. That's true. 7 Q I me an, you' re a me d i c a 1 d o c t o r 8 you ' re n o tarn anufactu ring c h e m i s t ? 9 A . That ' s corre c t . 1 0 Q So, someone from t h a t 1 1 manufactu ring plant to ok you through and 1 2 said here ' s w h ere we r u n the benzene 1 3 through the 1 e ad, molt e n lead , and i t comes 1 4 out as a d i p h e ny 1 ? 1 5 A . That * s corre c t . 1 6 Q . Or s omething to t h a t e f f e c t ? 1 7 A . Some thing to that e f f e c t . 1 8 Q And then the y said now we' r e 1 9 running i t t h r o u g h n a s cent chlorine and 2 0 it's go i n g as to come out as a P C B ? 2 1 A . Of c o u r s e , I had read the 2 2 m a n u f a c t u ring process before I went to the 2 3 plant. s o they really d i d n ' t have to spell 2 4 it out i n that much d e tail. But I d i d n ' t 2 5 know t h e temperatures, I d i d n ' t know the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 134 WATER PCB-SD0000029569 1 pressures involved and I didn't know how 2 they distilled the material out, as far as 3 chlorination is concerned. 4 (Noon Recess). 5 MR. COX: It's stipulated among 6 all the counsel that an objection made by 7 one counsel for one party shall redoubt to 8 the benefit of all parties. 9 MR. COHEN: I think where we 1 0 broke off, Doctor, you were explaining to 1 1 me what you understood to be the process at 1 2 Monsanto used to manufacture 1 3 polychlorinated biphenyls, and you had said 1 4 that you had understood that the PCB 1 5 material that was involved in the Yusho and 1 6 Yu Cheng incidents was a different 1 7 product . 1 8 A. I didn't say that. I said it was 1 9 manufactured by a different product -- by 2 0 a different process and that it had 2 1 contaminants that were not present in the 22 Monsanto product. 2 3 Q. Yes. And you identified 2 4 chlorinated dibenzofurans and chlorinated 2 5 guaterphenyls? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 135 WATER PCB-SD0000029570 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. Now, what did you understand 3 about the process of manufacture for 4 Kanneclor? 5 A. They used a sodium hydroxide wash 6 at someplace, and I do not what -- where 7 that occurred during the process. 8 Q. What is your source of 9 information on that? 1 0 A. The engineers at Monsanto. 1 1 Q. Can you identify specifically who 1 2 would have given you this information? 1 3 A. Dr. Kaley may very well have been 1 4 one of them. 1 5 Q. K-a-1-1 - 1 6 A. K-a-l-e-y. 1 7 MR. MALIN: The chap whose 1 8 deposition you took about a month ago. 1 9 MR. COHEN: You say he may have 2 0 been one of them. Are there others whose 2 1 names come to mind as potential candidates? 2 2 A. It might have been Papageorge . 2 3 Q . What would Mr. Papageorge's 2 4 informati on or source of information have 2 5 been on this, do you know? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 13 6 WATER PCB-SD0000029571 1 A . I don' t k 2 manufacturing -- hhe was a plant manager at 3 Anniston, so he man 4 Q He was t h 5 A . A t Ann i s t 6 Q What d i d 7 sodium hydroxide wash did to the product? 8 A. I haven't the slightest idea. 9 Q . Was it your understanding that 1 0 thesodium hydroxide wash, wherever it was 1 1 done in the process, was the element that 1 2 introduced the existence of these 1 3 contaminants, as you called them? 1 4 A. I don't know. It was not my 1 5 understanding, I had no idea what it did to 1 6 the product. 1 7 Q . Do you know what was the source 1 8 of the contaminants in the Kanneclor 1 9 product? 20 A. No, sir, I donot. I'd have to 2 1 suppose. 2 2 Q. Now, what did you understand was 23 theexistence of dibenzofurans in the 24 Kanneclor productthat was involved in the 2 5 Yusho and Yu Cheng incident when the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 7 WATER PCB-SD0000029572 1 material was new? Did you understand that 2 it contained -- let me back up and try 3 again. Did you understand that the 4 Kanneclor product that was involved in 5 those two incidents that we discussed 6 contained dibenzofurans at the point -- at 7 the end point of manufacture as a finished 8 product? 9 A. I did not know that of my own 1 0 knowledge. I did not know that. 1 1 Q. What do you know about it today, 1 2 from whatever source? 1 3 A. I'm not sure. I just would have 1 4 to -- I was told there was some 1 5 dibenzofurans in the Kanneclor product, 1 6 that it was a higher level than was in the 1 7 Monsanto product, but I don't know anything 1 8 about the details. 1 9 Q. Do you know how much higher level 2 0 it was? 2 1 A . N o , I do not. 2 2 Q Do you know what level -- let me 2 3 back up. Do I understand f rom your last 2 4 answer. when you say it was a higher level 2 5 than in the Monsanto product, does that GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 13 8 WATER PCB-SD0000029573 1 indicate to you that the Monsanto product 2 had dibenzofurans as a finished product 3 before use? 4 A. Yes. It may have, yes. 5 Q. Did you know the level of 6 dibenzofuran content of the Monsanto 7 products at the point of conclusion of a manufacture? 9 A. No. Because it depended on the 1 0 sophistication of the analytical method. 11 The first time Monsanto PCB was analyzed 1 2 for chlorinated dibenzofurans was in 1 3 Europe, and they found none. They were 1 4 checking Monsanto versus two other European 1 5 suppliers, and they found the chlorinated 1 6 dibenzofurans in the Italian and French, 1 7 did not find it in the Monsanto product. 1 8 So, I can not tell you about the levels, 1 9 because I do not know the sophistication at 2 0 various points in time. 2 1 Q. Well, you're not suggesting that 2 2 the content, the existence of the 2 3 dibenzofurans in the product is dependent 2 4 upon the analytical process, but, rather, 2 5 the ability to detect its presence? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 139 WATER PCB-SD0000029574 1 Certainly I am not suggesting 2 that. 3 Q. All right. So, it's the a b i 1 i t y 4 to d e t e c t it that depends upon the 5 sophist! cation of the analyt i c a 1 pro cess? 6 A . T h a t's correct. 7 Q - T o your knowledge. did Mon santo 8 ever do tests of the product t o d e t e rmine 9 for them s e 1 v e s the presence and 1 e v e 1 of 1 0 dibenzof u r a n s in their finis h e d prod u c t ? 1 1 A . Yes , they did. 1 2 Q How many times, do you k n o w ? 1 3 A . I d o not know if they did i t 1 4 before I left in 1974, I was told t h at they 1 5 did it s u b s e q uent to 1974. 1 6 Q And what did they find , d o you 1 7 know? 1 8 A . I d o not know the 1 e v e 1 s , but 1 9 they found so me chlorinated dibe n z o f u r a n s . 2 0 Q . Do you know if the y f o u n d a level 2 1 similar to t h e level of dibe n z o f u r a n s in 2 2 the Kanneclor product involv e d i n t h e Y u s h o 2 3 and Yu Cheng incidents when that pro duct 2 4 was new? 2 5 A. I do not know that. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI ( 14 0 WATER PCB-SD0000029575 1 Q Do you know what level of 2 d i benzofurans was f o u n d in the oil product 3 t h at was alleged t o h a ve caused the toxic 4 r e actions in the Yus h o and Yu Cheng 5 i ncidents ? 6 A. I lost the f irst part of your 7 question. 8 Q. Strike it, 1 et's do it again. Do 9 you know the level of the dibenzofurans 1 0 that was found in th e product that was 1 1 alleged to have caus e d the toxic reactions 1 2 in the Yusho and Yu C h eng incidents? 1 3 A . It was rep o r ted in the 1 4 1 i terat ure, and I'm n o t sure I could quote 1 5 that today to you. 1 6 Q When did the Yusho and Yu Cheng 1 7 i n c i d e n ts occur? 1 8 A . The Yusho w a s in late 1960's, I 1 9 think ' 68, and the Yu Cheng was early 2 0 '70's; '71, '72. 2 1 Q They both o c curred during your 2 2 tenure with Monsanto C o m p a n y ? 2 3 A . Beg pardon 2 4 Q They both o c curred during the 2 5 period that you were s till with Monsanto? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 141 WATER PCB-SD0000029576 1 A . I may be wrong on the Yu Che 2 t h ought that occurred after I 1 e f t . 3 Q . D o you know wheth e r t h ere w a 4 r e port o f a n increase in th e qua n t i t y 5 t h e ben z o furans from the or i g i n a 1 prod 6 t o the t i m e that the incide n t o c c u r r e d 7 A . I do not know if they had 1 e 8 o f the o r i g i nal product at that time. 9 Q . What have you -- have you 1 0 subsequently learned anything about it? 1 1 A . Well, yes. I subsequently read 1 2 that t h ere was a high -- considered to be 1 3 a high level of diben zofurans in the Y u s h o 1 4 oil that was used to cook soybean cakes. 1 5 Q. Did you understand that that was 1 6 present in the product from new, from 1 7 manufacture, or did you understand that it 1 8 was something that occurred during the 1 9 process of use? 2 0 A. I did not know whether or not 2 1 there was any particular level in the 2 2 material, de novo, but it was certainly the 2 3 scientific opinion that whatever level 2 4 there was was enhanced by the treatment in 2 5 the heat transfer unit, as well as cooking GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 142 WATER PCB-SD0000029577 1 the material in a wok, or whatever they 2 cooked it with. 3 Q Do you know what t e mperature 4 oil was exposed to in the h e a t transfe 5 process? 6 A. No, sir, I do not. 7 Q . Was the heat transfer process a 8 process similar to heat transfer processes 9 that you described earlier in which the 1 0 Monsanto product was used? 1 1 A. I don't know. 1 2 MR. MALIN: I object to the form 1 3 of the question. 1 4 A. I don't know. 1 5 MR. COHEN: What do you know 1 6 about the Yusho and Yu Cheng incidents 1 7 other than what you've already told us? 1 8 A. Well, what was in the medical 1 9 literature, certainly, what symptoms the 2 0 people had, the amount of people that were 2 1 exposed. 2 2 Q. What symptoms did the people 2 3 have? 2 4 A. They had a great number of 2 5 dermatological problems; they had GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000029578 1 chloracne, they had d e f o r m e d n a i 1 s , they 2 had denti tian problems, tee t h pr o b 1 e m s . 3 Q What was the nail d e f o rmation? 4 A . Beg pardon? 5 Q The nail deformat ion, what was 6 it? 7 A . Pigmentation and curvi n g of the 8 nails. 9 Q Curving, what do you m e a n ? 1 0 A . I can't hear you. 1 1 Q - Curving which way , sir ? 1 2 A . I don't remember. 1 3 Q What was the pigm e n t a t ion 1 4 problem; changed color? 1 5 A . Yes, from -- it black e n e d . 1 6 Q What were the den t i t i a n problems? 1 7 A . That was in child r e n o n eruption 1 8 of teeth, either eruption t o o e a r 1 y or 1 9 deformed teeth. 2 0 Q What other proble ms we r e 2 1 associated with the exposur e in Yusho and 2 2 Yu Cheng? 2 3 A. An enormous amoun t of symptoms, 2 4 varied symptoms. 25 Q. When you say an e n o r m o us, you GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 144 WATER PCB-SD0000029579 1 mean a whole variety of symptoms? 2 A . Yes, a whole list of the 3 Q Live r a i 1 m e n ts reported? 4 A . Not that I r e c a 1 1 . 5 Q How about c a n c e r ? 6 A . N o , not that I recall, e 7 Q - When is the last time yo 8 ion to re view the reported sy 9 the Y u s h o and Yu Cheng incide 1 0 A . Six or eight months ago. 1 1 Q What was the occasion th 1 2 reviewed it? 1 3 A. I think it was during a 1 4 deposition. 1 5 Q. Someone showed you a list of the 1 6 symptoms? 1 7 A. No, I went home and looked at it. 1 8 Q . So, you have a library at home of 1 9 reference material regarding -- 2 0 A. Not a great -- I wouldn't 2 1 consider it a library, but I have reference 2 2 material on PCB's. 23 Q. What was the source document you 2 4 went to during that deposition six or 25 eighth months ago? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 5 WATER PCB-SD0000029580 1 A . The Journal of Occupatio n a L 2 Med i c i n e . 3 Q D o y o u remem ber the numb er of 4 t h a t jour n a 1 th at y o u looked at? 5 A . No . But i t was sometime in the 6 ear 1 y '70 ' s . 7 Q S o , i t w a s a journal rep orting o 8 s y m p t o m a t o 1 o g y from a contemporane o u s 9 per i o d to the e x p o s ure ? 1 0 A . T h a t is c o r r e c t . 1 1 Q H a v e you loo ked at anyth i n g that 1 2 has been p u b 1 i s h e d m o r e recently r egarding 1 3 the study o f t h o s e two incidents ? 1 4 A. Yes. I've seen translations of 1 5 them, various articles by Japanese authors 1 6 that were subsequently published in the 1 7 Journal of Occupational Medicine. I don't 1 8 know where these came from. They were 1 9 Japanese articles, and I can't tell you the 2 0 dates of them. 2 1 Q. You can't tell me the authors? 2 2 A. No, I can't tell you the authors. 2 3 Q. What would be the most recent 2 4 article that you read a translation of, can 2 5 you tell me? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 46 WATER PCB-SD0000029581 1 A . I can't answer that. 2 Q. Anything published in the '80 ' s ? 3 A. Yes, they were in the ' 8 0 ' s , I 4 believe, but I'm not certain of the date. 5 Q. Any new or different symptoms 6 being reported in the late 18 0 ' s from those 7 reported in the early ' 7 0 ' s ? 8 A. Not that I can recall. I think 9 there was a lessening of the symptoms. 1 0 Q Was that listing apparently the 1 1 a s the -- 1 2 A . Less e n i n g . 1 3 Q I ' m sorry. Lessening of 1 4 symptoms? 1 5 A. Lessening of symptoms. 1 6 Q . That is, that the people 1 7 period of time were gett i n g better 1 8 A. Better. 1 9 Q. Or that less symptoms were 2 0 associated, which? 2 1 A. They were getting better. 2 2 Q. To your knowledge, did any people 2 3 who allegedly ingested the oil in the Yusho 2 4 or Yu Cheng incidents die? 2 5 A. There were deaths reported, yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 147 WATER PCB-SD0000029582 1 Q Deaths . that is , associated with 2 the ingestion? 3 A. I don't know what you mean by 4 associated. Some of the people who 5 ingested the material died. Whether they 6 died of traffic accidents or whether they 7 died of, quote, natural causes or whatever, 8 I do not know, whether it was a cause and 9 effect relationship between the ingestion 1 0 of the oil and their deaths. 1 1 Q. Well, that's exactly what I'm 1 2 asking you. You're saying you don't know 1 3 whether there was ever established any 1 4 cause and effect relationship between the 1 5 ingestion of the oil and anybody's death? 1 6 A. Yes, sir, that's my opinion. 1 7 Q So , obviously, some peo 1 8 died, but as f ar as your knowledg 1 9 concerned. you don't know why? 2 0 A . I do n't know what? 2 1 Q Why those people died? 2 2 A . N o , I don't know why t h 2 3 Unless they were listed as suicides or 2 4 something like that, there may be some 2 5 definite causes given, but -- GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 A WATER PCB-SD0000029583 1 Q. We had been talking about the 2 testing that you had ordered done, and we 3 had been talking about testing that you had 4 had done, both acute testing and some 5 longer term testing at the University of 6 Cincinnati in the mid ' 5 0 1 s , do you recall, 7 sir? 8 A . Yes, I do recall. 9 Q As I recall, and you'll cor r e c t 1 0 I ' m wrong, please, at that time you 1 1 were ordering some studies done because of 1 2 some reports dealing with leaking PCB's in 1 3 PCB's used as hydraulic fluid in the die 1 4 casting industry? 1 5 A. That's correct. 1 6 Q . And the exposure of those PCB's 1 7 to high temperature metal surfaces and the 1 8 resultant apparent vaporization or 1 9 transformation of the substance, and you 2 0 wanted to study the effect on humans, is 2 1 that correct? 2 2 A . That 's correct. 23 Q Tell me about those studies; what 2 4 you do? 2 5 A . What did I do? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 14 9 WATER PCB-SD0000029584 1 Q Yes. 2 A . What w a s done by the p e o pie who 3 did it? 4 Q What d i d you d o , firs t , and then 5 what was done by others a t your b e h e s t ? 6 A . I we n t up to D r . Jose P h Treo n and 7 said here 's o u r p r o b 1 e m 8 Q. Doctor who? 9 A. Treon, T-r-e-o-n. 1 0 Q . Treon? 1 1 A. That's correct. 1 2 Q. Where is he, the University of 1 3 Cincinnati? 1 4 A. He's dead now, he was at the 1 5 University of Cincinnati. 1 6 Q. And what did you tell Dr. Treon? 1 7 A. I said, "There is a possibility 1 8 that some people are liable to be exposed 1 9 to PCB's after being dropped on hot metal 2 0 surfaces, what's liable to happen?" He 2 1 said, "Well, we'll check it out." So, we 2 2 arranged for a rather mixed bag of animals, 2 3 guinia pigs, rats, dogs, mice, and exposed 2 4 them to fumes generated by dropping PCB's 2 5 on metal up to five or six hundred degrees GOREREPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 e; fl WATER PCB-SD0000029585 1 fahrenheit, I believe. I'm not sure of the 2 temperatures. And he exposed them for 3 varying periods of time. 4 Q. Who developed the protocol for 5 these tests? 6 A. Dr. Treon, in conjunction with 7 myself . 8 Q. Do you recall what was your input 9 into this protocol? 1 0 A. My input was that, the basis why 1 1 I needed the testing done. And I said 12 these are the types ofexposures that 1 3 work e r s are 1 i able t o h a 1 4 that and d e s i g n e d the pr 1 5 Q Y o u say you t o 1 6 exposures; what did you tell him? 1 7 A. I said that there is going to be 1 8 a possibility that PCB's, hot, could be 1 9 dropped on hotter metallic surfaces. 2 0 Q. So, the -- I'm sorry. 2 1 A. And that people can be exposed to 2 2 X amount of this material, find out what 2 3 amount is safe. 2 4 Q. So, you first started off with 2 5 the proposition that the PCB fluid would be GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 151 WATER PCB-SD0000029586 1 hot , i s that right? 2 A . Yes. 3 Q What do you me a n b y hot? 4 A . Well, hot is h o t . I mean. Y o u 5 mean h o w hot? 6 Q A hot day can b e 8 0 degrees / but 7 what w e re you talking ab out w h e n you w e r e 8 t a 1 k i ng about hot fluid? 9 A . Two to three h u n d red degree s F . 1 0 Q Okay. So, whe n y o u said ho t 1 1 fluid f you were talking i n t h a t range ? 1 2 A . Presumably. I ' m not c e r t a i n o f 1 3 that t e mperature . 1 4 Q Well, I'm not g o i ng to hold Y o u 1 5 to t h e exact details of s o m e t h i n g t h a t 1 6 h a p p e n e d 35 years ago. 1 7 A . It was over th e b oil i n g p o i n t o f 1 8 water r which is 180 degr e e s F , that's a s 1 9 close a s I can get. 2 0 Q Now -- 2 1 MR . MALIN : It ' s 2 12 degree s . 2 2 A . 2 12. 23 MR . COHEN Well, there is 32 2 4 degrees difference here. Which one are we 2 5 going to go with. Doctor? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 15 2 WATER PCB-SD0000029587 1 A. I'm not certain. 2 Q. 212 degrees fahrenheit for the 3 boiling point of water or 180 degrees 4 fahrenheit? 5 A. It could be either. It was 6 probably 212. 7 Q. 212. Under what circumstances 8 could it be 180 degr e e s ? 9 A . I could b e wrong, would be the 1 0 circumsta nee that I would say it was 1 8 0 1 1 degrees, that circumstance. 1 2 MR. MALIN: Reduced pressure. 1 3 A. In this instance, I could be 1 4 wrong on the figure of 180, it very 1 5 probably is 212. 1 6 MR. COHEN : All right. So, it 1 7 was a temperature greater than the boiling 1 8 point of water, whatever that is? 1 9 A. That's correct. 2 0 Q. You told him you wanted to 2 1 presume that the fluid would be heated to 2 2 that point or greater? 2 3 A. That was not the problem. The 2 4 problem was it will be dropped on metal 2 5 which has a temperature -- which will be GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 153 WATER PCB-SD0000029588 1 having a temperature of four or five 2 hundred degrees f ahrenheit . 11 was a 3 problem of the he at -- of the temperat 4 of - - t h e fluid i tself was not the main 5 thrust of the experiment, the main thrust 6 of the experiment was what happens when you 7 drop this PCB fluid, whether it's 180 or 8 212 degrees, on to a metal object that's 9 500 degrees, what happens then. 1 0 Q. Well, I appreciate your further 1 1 explanation. Doctor. I hope you won't get 1 2 impatient with me, but you'll have to 1 3 understand, I'm trying to learn what was 1 4 your thought process at that time by asking 1 5 you a series of questions. And your 1 6 responses are helpful in giving me that 1 7 information. 1 8 A. Thank you. 1 9 Q. The main thrust, then, was not 2 0 the temperature of the PCB fluid, but, 2 1 rather, what would happen when it struck an 2 2 even hotter surface? 2 3 A. The thrust of the experiment, 2 4 correct. 2 5 Q. Nonetheless, you wanted Dr. Treon GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 S. 4 WATER PCB-SD0000029589 1 to start off with the premise of the fluid 2 being heated somewhere between 200 and 300 3 degrees F? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. And then you -- 6 A . But that really did not m a k e a 7 g r e a t d e a 1 of d i f f e r e n c e . Bee a u s e t h e 8 q u e s t i o n was what h a p p e n s when thi s h its 9 metal at 500 degrees. 1 0 Q. The metal surface being hea ted to 1 1 thirty-five hundred degrees? 1 2 A. That's correct. 1 3 Q. Would any temperature have made a 1 4 difference, in your judgment, at that time. 1 5 any temperature of the PCB fluid? 1 6 HR. MALIK : I object to the form 1 7 of the question, because I don't unde rstand 1 8 it. If you think you understand it 1 9 MR. COHEN: Let me back up. 2 0 Doctor. You said that you didn't thi n k 2 1 that the temperature of the fluid mad e that 2 2 much difference, two to three hundred 2 3 degrees; how about if the temperature o f 2 4 the fluid was 600? 2 5 A. Certainly, it would have, i t GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 155 WATER PCB-SD0000029590 1 would have made a difference. Because it 2 would v olatilize, there would be vapors 3 given o ff regardless of the temperature of 4 the met al object that it impinged upon. 5 Q So that there is a difference, 6 d e p e n d i ng on what the temperature was, but 7 at two to three hundred degrees you weren't 8 concern ed about the temperature, is that 9 right? 10 A. Didn't sa y I wasn'tconcerned. I 1 1 said the problem th at I was trying to 1 2 investigate was wha t will happen when you 1 3 put this on metal a t temperatures of 500 1 4 degrees. If we sta rt at 80 degrees or 1 5 start at 180 degree s or 212 degrees, that 1 6 would not make any difference to me as long 1 7 as we're going to b e dropping this on to 1 8 500 degree heated m e t a 1 . 1 9 Q . At what p oint would the 2 0 temperature of the PCB fluid have made a 2 1 difference to you? 2 2 MR . MAL I N : I think he's already 2 3 answered that quest ion. 2 4 MR . COHEN s Well, he said to me 2 5 at 600 degrees it w ould make a difference GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 56 WATER PCB-SD0000029591 1 because the fluid would volatilize, I'm 2 trying to find out at what point it would 3 make a difference. Would it be the 4 temperature at which the fluid would start 5 to volatilize. Doctor? 6 A. The temperature -- if the fluid 7 volatilized, there were some vapors given 8 off at 180 degrees, there would be a 9 certain exposure which would be additive to 1 0 that given off if the 180 degree material 1 1 dropped on an object of 500 degrees. So, 1 2 it really was not of great serious 1 3 consequences to me whether it was 200 1 4 degrees, 100 degrees, as long as it was 1 5 going to be heated up to 500 or 600degrees 16 F . 1 7 Q. What about the temperature of the 1 8 surface that you expected the fluid to 1 9 strike, did that temperature matter to you? 2 0 A. I didn't hear yourfinal phrase. 2 1 Q. Did the temperature of the metal 2 2 surface that the fluid was to strike, was 23 that important to you? 2 4 A. Certainly, it was. 2 5 Q. Okay. What temperature range did GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 157 WATER PCB-SD0000029592 1 you want the doctor to test with? 2 A. I wanted himto test it at around 3 500 degrees, because that was the 4 information I had, that that was the 5 temperature of the material coming out of a 6 die casting machine. 7 Q. So, again, you were now giving 8 him a parameter to work within that was 9 from information that had been given to you 1 0 from engineering. customers, whatever? 1 1 A . That's correct. 1 2 Q . 5 0 0 or 600 degrees fahrenheit for 1 3 the surface of the metal was not something 1 4 that you independently selected? 1 5 A. No, it was not. 1 6 Q. Did he conduct the tests? 1 7 A. Yes, he did. 1 8 Q. What, generally, were the results 1 9 of the test? 2 0 A. The results were that he came out 2 1 with a figure that five-tenths of a 2 2 milligram per cubic meter for Aroclor 1254 2 3 was a safe level for an 8 hour day, and 2 4 that one milligram per cubic meter of air 2 5 was a safe level for -- I'm not sure GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 58 WATER PCB-SD0000029593 1 whether he used 1242 or 1248 was also a 2 safe level. 3 Q . Did he do tests with substances 4 other than 1242 and 1248? 5 A. I don't think he did. 6 Q . Did he detect -7 A . 1 2 4 8 ? He did 54. He d i d 1 2 5 4 , 8 and I ' m not sure whether he did e i ther 12 4 2 9 o r 1 2 4 8 , it's in his -- we'1 v e g i v e n yo u 1 0 the reports. I'll be happy to look at it 1 1 and tell you what he was working with. 1 2 Q . Now, let me ask you this, his 1 3 report contained certain conclusions, is 1 4 that right? 1 5 A . Yes. 1 6 Q . And i n order t o reach t h o s e 1 7 conclusions, D r . T r e o n , I assume. had 1 8 developed a certainamount of data? 1 9 A. A certain what? 2 0 Q. Data? 2 1 A . Yes. 2 2 Q. He did his tests, he made 2 3 observations, he recorded his observations, 2 4 and that recordation of his observations 2 5 was accumulated, and that was the data upon GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI t e; q WATER PCB-SD0000029594 1 which he based his conclusions, is that 2 right? 3 A . Yes, sir. 4 Q Did you get the data? 5 A . He ran the experiments. he got 6 the data from taking temperatures a t 7 levels, a nd experimental -- 8 Q I'm asking you, did you get the 9 data? You got the report, did you get the 1 0 data? 1 1 A . Meaning the ra w data? 1 2 Q Yes. 1 3 A . No, I did not. 1 4 Q In any of the tests that you 1 5 ordered over the years. did you get th 1 6 data? 1 7 A . No. I don't believe I did. That 1 8 is not the way independent toxicological 1 9 investigators work. They send you the 2 0 conclusions. IC you wanted, we had people 2 1 go up to these various places and see the 2 2 experiments in progress, while they were in 2 3 i progress. But we did not -- I certainly 2 4 didn't read the raw data. I didn't look at 25! it . GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI i a. n WATER PCB-SD0000029595 1 Q. Without regard to whether you 2 read it or not, sir, did you ask to receive 3 as part of your report from your 4 independent contractor who was performing 5 these tes t s the raw data that they were 6 developin g? 7 A . No, I did not. 8 Q Would it be fair to say, then, 9 that your files -- and when I speak of 1 0 yours, I ' m speaking, now, of Monsanto ' s 1 1 files -- do not contain the raw data that 1 2 the experimentors developed? 1 3 MR. MALIN: I object to the form 1 4 of that question. You're asking him 1 5 generally with respect to every conceivable 16 test that may have ever been don I don 1 7 know that we'v e e s t a b 1 i s h e d -- 1 8 M R . COHEN: Let' s f o c u s o n the 1 9 tests that the Doctor r e q u e s t e d . 2 0 A . W h i c h Doctor ? 2 1 Q . You , sir. 2 2 A . Okay . What was your q u e s t i on? 2 3 Q . F o c u sing on the tests t h a t you 2 4 requested, sir , from the i n d e p e n dent 2 5 laboratories, whether you ever o b t a i n e d GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 16 1 WATER PCB-SD0000029596 1 part of t h e report of the tests the raw 2 data that t h e experimentor had d e v e 1 oped? 3 A . I think the answ e r to that is I 4 do not recall receiving the raw data. 5 Conceivably there may have been a case when 6 I did, but I do not recall any. 7 Q. Did you enter into written 8 agreements with these laboratories for the 9 work they were doing for you? 1 0 A. It varied. I don't think it was 1 1 formalized in a contract. When we worked 1 2 with the University of Cincinnati, I 1 3 believe the university had a contract, how 1 4 much it would be paid, and it was really a 1 5 financial arrangement. It w a s n ' t a 1 6 question of you 're going to use this many 1 7 animals or this species of a n i m a Is, we did 1 8 not do that, it was mostly from a budgetary 1 9 point of view. 2 0 Q. In the course of your experience 2 1 in dealing with independent contractors, 2 2 did you ever specify to the experimentor 2 3 the species of animals that you wanted to 2 4 have tested? 2 5 A. Yes, I may have. Because some GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 162 WATER PCB-SD0000029597 1 animals are suscep t i ble for -- or 2 appropriate for certain types of 3 experiments. You do not do skin testing on 4 a rat, because there is an awful lot of 5 skin on it, you use a rabbit. Other types, 6 the government would demand two different 7 species; one, a rodent, one, a non-rodent, 8 so we would talk to the laboratory and say 9 we want these two different species run. 1 0 Q. So, when the government gave a 1 1 particular requirem e n t , you would pass that 1 2 on? 1 3 A. Well, it wasn't a requirement in 1 4 all cases, it was advice. Because before 1 5 we started on any extensive period of 1 6 investigation, even if this was not 1 7 required by the government, we often went 1 8 down to the government and said this is 1 9 what we're going to do, have you got any 2 0 ideas about it. 2 1 Q. Who in the government would you 2 2 see? Let's start, first, what department? 23 A. Food and Drug Administration. 2 4 Q. During this time period, sir, 2 5 from 1936 to 1955, were you, the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 1 fi 3 WATER PCB-SD0000029598 1 manufacturer, Monsanto, required by the 2 Food and Drug Administration of the 3 Government of the United States required to 4 keep any files that reflected your user's 5 experience with the substance in question? 6 A . From ' 3 6 to '55? 7 Q Yes. 8 A . No . Not that I k n o w o f . 9 Q - Were you required by the 1 0 A d m i nis tration of the G overnm 1 1 the United States to maintain any files 1 2 that reflected adverse reactions or 1 3 experience to the substance that you were 1 4 manufacturing? 1 5 A . No . 1 6 Q. Subsequent to 1955, and during 1 7 the tenure of your employment with 1 8 Monsanto, did the Food and Drug 1 9 Administration o f the Go ver n ra e n t o f the 2 0 United States r e q u i r e yo u t o m a i n t a i n files 2 1 that reflected e i ther u s e r e x p e r i e n c e o r 2 2 adverse reactions to any of the products ! 2 3 that you manufactured? 2 4 A. I cannot answer -- to answer 2 5 that, I will have to say no, they did not, GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 6 4. WATER PCB-SD0000029599 1 although in the latter years 19 7 4 about 2 the time I was leaving, either the 0 S H A may 3 have requested employee files to be kept 4 who were exposed to particular chemicals. 5 But I'm not familiar with the chemicals 6 they asked for, or whether we were 7 manufacturing the particular product at 8 that time. 9 Q. Well, I asked you about the Food 1 0 and Drug Administration, you mentioned 1 1 OSHA. Let me expand my previous inquiry. 1 2 From '36 to '55 did any other agency of the 1 3 federal government ask you to maintain 1 4 files reflecting either adverse reactions 1 5 or user experience of any product you 1 6 manufactured? 1 7 A. Other than what, OSHA? 1 8 Q. Other than FDA? 1 9 A. Well, first of all, the FDA never 2 0 did, to my knowledge. 2 1 Q. You told me that. I asked about 2 2 any other agency. 23 A. I said OSHA may have. 2 4 Q. You were telling me about 2 5 subsequent to '74. I'm expanding this to GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 165 WATER PCB-SD0000029600 1 include all other agencies sir. 2 A . Well, I did not say 0 S H A 3 subsequent to '74, I said OSHA may have 4 asked around the time of my retirement, it 5 may have been in 1973 or '74, they may have 6 had a request that individuals -- that 7 companies who had individuals working with 8 certain products keep the medical records 9 for an indefinite period of time. 1 0 Q. I'll accept that correction. I 1 1 didn't mean to lischaracterize your 1 2 testimony, sir. Other than with respect to 1 3 the exception that you've given us 1 4 rega rding OSHA and certain employee files. 1 5 and without regard to when that occu rred, 1 6 did any other agency of the Governme n t of 1 7 the United States, from 1936 to the time 1 8 you retired, require you to maintain files 1 9 reflecting either user experience or 2 0 adverse reactions to any product that you 2 1 manufactured? 2 2 MR . MAL IN : I'm going to object 23 to the form of the question on the grounds 2 4 that it isn't clear that you've established 2 5 whether or not he had any respsonsibility GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 16 6 WATER PCB-SD0000029601 1 forkeeping any such files or if he would 2 be the person who would have any knowledge 3 with respect to whether or not this data 4 was kept or required to be kept. 5 MR. COHEN: Why don't you tell me 6 what you know about any requirements? 7 A. To the best of myknowledge, with 8 the one exception that I gave you about 9 OSHA, I have no recollection of any 1 0 government agency whatsoever asking me to 1 1 retain files, or asking anyone in Monsanto 1 2 to retain medical files of our employees or 1 3 our customer complaints. 1 4 Q. At any time in the course of your 1 5 tenure of employment with Monsanto, did 1 6 Monsanto have an individual who was 1 7 designated as a government compliance 1 8 officer who was charged with the duty alone 1 9 or in connection with any other duties of 2 0 their employment to maintain documentation 2 1 requested by the government? 22 A. I cannot answer that. They may 2 3 have had people in the agricultural 2 4 department, where they were making 2 5 agricultural chemicals, but as far as the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 167 WATER PCB-SD0000029602 1 medical department, I knew none of it, and 2 I knew of no person on the table of 3 organization that was listed as a 4 compliance officer. 5 Q . Now, you said the agricultural 6 department -- 7 A. Of Monsanto. 8 Q. Was the agricultural department 9 in any way involved in the manufacture of 1 0 PCB's? 1 1 A . No . 1 2 Q. Was that still under the organic 1 3 division? 1 4 A. Well, as I said, we went through 1 5 several reorganizations, I think it was 1 6 Monsanto Chemicals Company, or something 1 7 like that at that time. 1 8 Q. So, you're saying you don't know 1 9 the identity of any individual who was a 2 0 government compliance officer? 2 1 A. That's correct. 2 2 Q Now, you say that you don't know 2 3 of any requirement t o maintain these 2 4 records, and you do not know of the 2 5 existence of any government compliance GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 168 WATER PCB-SD0000029603 1 officer; can you tell me who in Monsanto, 2 to your knowledge, sir, would know the 3 answer to my previous question about 4 government requirements with respect to the 5 maintenance of records? 6 A . I would not know. 7 Q. How about your general counsel's 8 office, would they be aware of that? 9 A . Well, you asked me if I k n'e w . 1 0 I h ad to find out, I would ask the 1 e g a 1 1 1 d e p artment, say what about this 1 2 Q You talked about OS HA m a y have 1 3 req u i r e d you to maintain f i 1 e s o n certain 1 4 d o y o u k n o w i f that w a s d one 1 5 A . I m n o t c e r t a i n of the d a t e . 1 6 was t o w a r d s the end o f m y 1 7 by Monsanto . 1 8 Q . Do y o u r e c all s e e i n g a ny s u c h 1 9 employee files? 2 0 MR. MALIN: I object to the form 2 1 of the question. I don't know what you 2 2 mean by such employee files. 2 3 MR. COHEN: As he described 2 4 earlier. Doctor, you know what I'm 2 5 speaking of, don't you? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 9 WATER PCB-SD0000029604 1 A. Well, they may have come out with 2 a regulation for anybody that was exposed 3 to asbestos, k e e p their medical files for 4 20 or 30 years o r until they ' re dead. But 5 I can not tell you when that c a me out . But 6 it came out so metime -- whether that came 7 out before December 1974 or afterwards, I 8 can't tell you at this time. 9 Q. How about PCB exposure, do you 1 0 recall any directive regarding maintenance 1 1 of employ e e files for employees who h 1 2 exposure t o PCB ' s ? 1 3 A . I recall no such directive. 1 4 Q . D o you know if such files w 1 5 ever maintained? 1 6 A . I can't s peak f o r after 19 7 4 . We 1 7 had emplo y e e reco r d s up to 1 9 7 4. 1 8 Q . You had r e g u 1 a r p a y r o 1 1 r e c o r d s , 1 9 I'm sure. Did y o u m a i n t a i n files o f 2 0 empolyees who wer e exposed to PCB ' s 2 1 separate and apart from their regular 2 2 payroll records? 2 3 A. I'm talking about medical files. 2 4 We had medical files on all our hourly 25 employees. These medical files were kept GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000029605 1 by Monsanto until I left in 1974 Whether 2 they were destroyed afterwards or not, I do 3 not know. At no time did we segregate the 4 PCB employee files from the average wage 5 worker employee of the company. 6 Q. Thank you. And I gather you 7 don't know exactly what data was used by 8 the researchers who you identified earlier 9 who did the studies at Krumraerich, is that 1 0 correct? 1 1 A. No, sir, I do not know. 1 2 Q . Now, other than with regard to 1 3 the advice, as you recall it, given to you 1 4 by the Food and Drug Administration or 1 5 other agencies regarding how to conduct 1 6 these tests, did you ever specify the 1 7 species of animals that were to be utilized 1 8 by your independent contractors? 1 9 A. No, I don't believe I did. I was 2 0 going to an expert in the toxicological 2 1 field, and they were my consultants, and I 2 2 listened to them. 23 S o , you -- 2 4 S o , the an s w e r is no 2 5 You tended t o follow GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 171 WATER PCB-SD0000029606 1 recommendations? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q . Did they ever recommend the use 4 of particular strains of a particular 5 species? 6 A. Not that I have any recollection 7 o f. 8 (Discussion off the record). 9 MR. COHEN: Other than 1 0 representatives of the Food and Drug 1 1 Administration, were there any other 1 2 governm ental agencies who. during your 1 3 tenure o f employment. you would consult 1 4 regardi ng types of testing that should 1 5 done? 1 6 A . He talked to members of the 1 7 Department of Agriculture. 1 8 Q I s that with respect to PCB 1 9 products or o ther product lines ? 2 0 A . Not with respect to PCB's. 2 1 Q Did you speak to any agencies 2 2 whatsoev e r w i th respect to PCB products ? 2 3 A . Did I speak to any agency 2 4 whatsoever? 25 Q. Yes. Governmental agencies . GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 2 WATER PCB-SD0000029607 1 A Yes the Food and Drug 2 Administration I did. 3 Q. When you talked about FDA before, 4 you were speaking in connection with a PCB 5 product? 6 A. Well, among other things . 7 (Discussion off the record). 8 MR. COHEN: Now, you had 9 described the tests that were done by Dr. 1 0 Treon at the University of Cincinnati, and 1 1 you had d e s c r i b e d s 1 2 you had had done by 1 3 laboratories in the 1 4 Younger and - 1 5 A . Sc i e n t i f i 1 6 Q . Sc i e n t i f i 1 7 the extent o f the t 1 8 done during that t i 19 mid '50 ' s ? 2 0 A . On PCB ' s 2 1 Q. PC B ' s . 2 2 A. Yes, sir. 2 3 Q. Now, were you doing testing on 2 4 any other products that were related to 2 5 PCB ' s, that is, quaterphenyls or -- were GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 173 WATER PCB-SD0000029608 1 you manufacturing polychlorinated bromides 2 during that time? 3 A . No. 4 Q. How about naphthalenes? 5 A . No . 6 Q. Were you ordering tests on any 7 other chlorinated hydrocarbon products? 8 A. We may have had an acute test run 9 on trichlorobenzene during that time. 1 0 Q . Any other products? 1 1 A . Not that I recall . 1 2 Q . Was Monsanto a t that time 1 3 manufacturing pesticides? 1 4 A . They manufactured parathion, 1 5 which is a n insecticide, yes. 1 6 Q. Is that a chlorinated 1 7 hydrocarbon? 1 8 A . No, not a t all. 1 9 Q. Any other insecticides that may 2 0 have been classified as -- or that were 2 1 classified a s chlorinated hydrocarbons? 22 A . No . 23 Q. DDT? 24 A. They did manufacture DDT, but I 2 5 don't know what - - we manufactured it GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 174 WATER PCB-SD0000029609 1 during the war and we stopped it a couple 2 o f years after the war. I had forgotten 3 all about DDT. 4 Q. Any other of those products, DDD, 5 A1 dri n? 6 A. Beg pardon? 7 Q. Aldrin? 8 A. No. The only insecticides we 9 manufactured were parathion, 1 0 methy1parathion and DDT. 1 1 Q. And I gather you didn't order any 1 2 tests on DDT? 1 3 A . No. 1 4 Q. Where was the DDT manufactured, 1 5 to your knowledge? Strike that. Was DDT 1 6 manufactured either at Krummerich or at -- 1 7 what's the other one, Anniston? 1 8 A. It wasn't manufactured at 1 9 Anniston. It may have been manufactured at 2 0 Krummerich, I'm not certain. 2 1 Q. Anniston and Krummerich, however, 2 2 were the only two plants that ever 2 3 manufactured PCB's in the continental 2 4 United States? 2 5 A. That's correct. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI ) 175 WATER PCB-SD0000029610 1 Q. Did you order any tests 2 subsequent to the mid '50' s ? 3 A. On what? 4 Q On the toxic o 1 ogic properties o f 5 PC B ' s ? 6 A . Yes. 7 Q When was the n ext time after this 8 Dr . Treon contract tha t you o r d e red t e s t s ? 9 A . Well, we did a cute s t u dies on 1 0 vari o u s batches of PCB ' s during the 20 1 1 year s f ol lowing 1950, a n d we did long t erm 1 2 test s i n the late 1960 ' s at the i n d u s t r i a 1 1 3 1 a b o rat ory test labora t 0 r i e s in Chicago 1 4 Q By the way. w h e n you w ere d e a ling 1 5 with Dr. Treon on this temperature exposure 1 6 test, w ere you aware of the pres e n c e o f 1 7 d i b e n z o f u r a n s in the product at that time? 1 8 A . N o , I was not. 1 9 Q Were you aware of any potential 2 0 for producing dibenzofurans by the process 2 1 of exposing the PCB's to high temperature? 2 2 A. No, I was not. 2 3 Q. When did you first become aware 2 4 of the presence of dibenzofurans in the 2 5 product? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 1 76 WATER PCB-SD0000029611 1 A . Sometime in the late '60's. 2 Q. And what caused that awareness? 3 A. Well, I do not know when the 4 paper by Vos, V-o-s, from Sweden was 5 published, in which he mentioned testing 6 the Monsanto and two other products. I 7 don't know when that was. But, then, 8 either in the late '6 0 's or early ' 7 0 ' s the 9 scientists in Japan brought up the product 1 0 -- the presence of chlorinated 1 1 dibenzofurans in the Yusho oil. That's 1 2 when Ibecame aware of it. 1 3 Q. Do you know if anyone has ever 1 4 determined whether the Monsanto products, 1 5 PCB products tontained, as they went out 1 6 the factory door, quaterpheny 1 s? 1 7 A. I do not know. 18 Q. Did you everrequest testing be 1 9 done subsequent to your learning about the 2 0 presence of PCDF's in other products to 2 1 determine the existence of or presence of 22 PCDF's in Monsanto products? 23 A. No, I did not. 2 4 Q. Did you have any concern as to 25 whether the PCDF's were present or not? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 177 WATER PCB-SD0000029612 1 A. No, I did not, because we had 2 tested the whole product, and whether that 3 product had one part of PCDF or two parts 4 or six parts, we tested the whole product, 5 so there was no necessity for finding out 6 what the individual ingredients or 7 contaminants of that product are. 8 Q. In other words, your feeling was 9 that because you had done tests on the 1 0 entire substance, the PCB's, and 1 1 established their toxicity information, it 1 2 was not necessary to look for any component 1 3 parts? 1 4 A. That's correct. 1 5 Q. Would you consider PCDF's a 1 6 contaminant in the product? 1 7 A. If by your question a contaminant 1 8 is an unwanted ingredient in the product, 1 9 I'd say yes, it's a contaminant. 2 0 Q. I would like to go with your 2 1 definition. 2 2 A . That ' s my d efinition, also, 2 3 Q During your tenure of employment, 2 4 were you aware o f any information that 2 5 exposing PCB's t o e 1 e vated temperatures GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 178 WATER PCB-SD0000029613 1 under certain circumstances can cause the 2 creation of dibenzofurans in the product? 3 A. Yes. Under certain 4 circumstances . 5 Q. When did you first become aware 6 of that information? 7 A . Late ' 60 ' s o r early '70' s . 8 Q What were t h e circumstan c e s that 9 you under stood had to occur in ord e r for 1 0 PCDF ' s to be f o r m e d in the product ? 1 1 A . What was the circumstanc e s ? 1 2 Q Yes. 1 3 A . Pres e n c e of oxygen. 1 4 Q And anything else? 1 5 A . That ' s it. 1 6 Q Was any e1e v ated tempera t u r e 1 7 required ? 1 8 A . Yes. I thought that was i n your 1 9 firs t -- 2 0 Q I as k e d you. what were the 2 1 circ u m s t a n c e s that you unders tood had t o 2 2 be - 23 MR . MAL IN : He wants the total 2 4 circ umstances . 2 5 A . The total? Heat and oxygen GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI j 179 WATER PCB-SD0000029614 1 Q Now with respect to heat , d o you 2 know what temperature was required? 3 A . I'll have to give you some 4 approximations. There is a certain window 5 of about between 300 and 500 hundred 6 degrees F at which, in the presence of 7 oxygen, chlorinated d i benzofurans can be 8 formed. If the temperature goes up past 9 five or six hundred degrees, again, I think 1 0 it's C, I'm not certain, dibenzofurans are 1 1 destroyed. 1 2 Q How about five to six hundred 1 3 degrees c entigrade? 1 4 A . I believe it's centigrade, I'm 1 5 not certain. 1 6 Q. Your first temperature measure 1 7 w a s t h ree to five h u n d r e d degree s F . 1 8 A . I meant C . I ' m not -- I b e 1 i e v 1 9 i t ' s F , and maybe both o f them w ere F , I'm 2 0 n o t c e rtain. 2 1 Q . Now, how did you under s t a n d the 2 2 o X yg e n had to be presen t ? 23 A . I don't know what you mean , how 2 4 did I understand the oxygen had to be 2 5 present . GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | WATER PCB-SD00000296lV 1 Q. Let me rephrase that. What was 2 your source of information regarding these 3 factors that had to exist for the formation 4 of PCDF's? 5 A. The literature and chemists or 6 engineers at Monsanto. 7 Q. Who were the engineers, can you 8 identify any for me today? 9 A . Bob Kaley, again. 1 0 Q Same guy, K-a-l-e-y? 1 1 A . That 's right. 1 2 Q Took his deposition last month. 1 3 right?? 1 4 A . Beg pardon? 1 5 Q Took his deposition last month. 1 6 he's the one Mr. Malin referred to. 1 7 MR. MALIN: He wouldn't 1 8 necessarily know that. 19 MR. COHEN: He said that. Your 2 0 counsel said that a little while ago. 2 1 A. Okay. 2 2 Q. Anyone else that youcan identify 2 3 other than Kaley? 2 4 A. Not that I know of. Not that I 25 can remember. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1A1 WATER PCB-SD0000029616 1 Q W h e n would Kaley have told you 2 this about t h e formation of PCDF ' s 7 3 A . I h aven't the slightes t idea. 4 Q P r i or to '75, I gather ? 5 A . N o , not prior to '75. 6 Q Sub sequent to '75? 7 A . Sub sequent to January o f '75, 8 yes. But not prior to, that I r e c all. 9 Q You were no longer an e m ployee of 1 0 M o n s a n t o when he told you? 1 1 A . Th a t's correct. 1 2 Q Wh a t information did y o u have 1 3 w h i 1 e you w e r e an employee of Mo n s a n t o 1 4 r e g a r d i n g the formation of diben z o furans in 1 5 PCB fluid ? 1 6 A . I have no information a s to the 1 7 formation of dibenzofurans, 1 8 Q. None? 1 9 A. None. 2 0 Q. Would it be fair to say, because 2 1 you had no information regarding the 2 2 presence or formation of PCDF's, you didn't 2 3 order any toxicologic studies to be done to 2 4 determine the toxicological properties of 2 5 PCDF's? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 182 WATER PCB-SD0000029617 1 M R . MALI N : That mischaracterizes 2 his testimony. He gave the reasons why he 3 didn't feel it necessary to have that 4 done. 5 M R . COHEN . Now, we were talking 6 earlier about the n e w product, is that 7 right? 8 M R . MAL IN s Go ahead, an swer the 9 question. 1 0 A. Let'' s have the question -- this 1 1 interplay has gotten me confused. What ' s 1 2 the question. again? 1 3 MR . COHEN : I'm confused , too. 1 4 (The requested portion of the 1 5 rec ord re a d by the reporter). * 1 6 A . No , that was not th e r e a son a t 1 7 all . The presence of, or a b s e n c e - - the 1 8 f a c t that I had no knowledge o f t h e 1 9 pre s e n c e o r a b s e n c e did not i n f 1 u e nee m e 20 because we had tested the product itself, 2 1 and as far as the parts per million 2 2 contaminants were concerned, they did not 23 -- they were included in the toxicity 2 4 testing. We tested the whole product, 2 5 including what may have been in there. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOUR I 1 83 WATER PCB-SD0000029618 1 Q That was a new product you were 2 testing? Your testing involved the use of 3 new product? 4 A . 0 f n ew produc t ? 5 Q N e w product, new i y manufactured 6 product? 7 A . Th a t ' s correc t . 8 Q Di d you ever d o t e s ting regarding 9 the toxic o 1 o gi c propert i e s o f used P C B 1 0 fluid? 1 1 A. No, sir, I did not. Although, 1 2 there were analytical studies of used PCB's 1 3 that showed no chlorinated dibenzofurans . 1 4 Q. Who did those tests? 1 5 A. They were reported in the 1 6 literature. Some of the state agencies did 1 7 them. 1 8 Q . When did you become familiar with 1 9 t h e s e a n a 1 y t i c stud ies of used PCB studies 2 0 that s h owed no PCDF s ? 2 1 A . Sometime subsequent to 1975. 2 2 Q You were not aware of any such 2 3 stud i e s during your tenure of employment? 2 4 A . That is c o r r e c t . 2 5 Q . Have you ever become aware of GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 184 WATER PCB-SD0000029619 1 studies that showed the presence of PCDF's 2 in used PCB fluids that have been used in 3 transformers? 4 A. Well, I don't recall whether 5 these reports that I referred to that were 6 carried out by governmental agencies was 7 PCB transformer oil or not. I would assume 8 -- I won't assume anything. 9 Q. Are you aware of the studies that 1 0 were done in the Binghamton, New York 1 1 transformer fires? 1 2 A . Yes, I generally know about 1 3 Q Were PCDF ' s formed the re? 1 4 A . Yes. But that was in the s 1 5 that was not in the transformer fluid 1 6 Q. You said Dr. Kaley was your 1 7 source of information with respect to what 1 8 were the requirements for the formation of 1 9 PCDF's in PCB fluid, is that right? 2 0 A. When you say the requirements, I 2 1 do not know if he explained all the 2 2 requirements, it may have been a series of 23 chemical reactions that he did not tell me 24 about. But he said here are the thermal 2 5 conditions under which PCDF's or GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 fl S WATER PCB-SD0000029620 1 dibenzofurans may be -- may occur in the 2 presence of heat and oxygen, and here are 3 the conditions in which -- thetemperature 4 conditions at which the chlorinated 5 dibenzofurans are destroyed. 6 Q. What was the occasion that caused 7 you to discuss this matter with Dr. Kaley? 8 A. I think the fires in PCB 9 containing transformers were getting a 1 0 great deal of publicity in the newspapers. 1 1 Q . Why was that an interest of yours 1 2 at that time? 1 3 A. Because I was pretty sure that 14 somebody would come up and say these are 1 5 Monsanto PCB's, on account of we were the 1 6 ones that were selling the PCB's to the 1 7 transformer companies. 1 8 Q . You were no longer with the 1 9 company at the time? 2 0 A .That ' s correct. 2 1 Q. So, what caused youto consult 2 2 with Dr. Kaley? 2 3 A. Because whenever there was a 2 4 forensic situation involving PCB's, I knew 2 5 that sooner or later I would be asked about GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOU IS , MISSOURI in/- WATER PCB-SD0000029621 1 them and I wanted to become knowledgeable. 2 Q. So, you were keeping abreast with 3 what the information was in the science 4 regarding PCB's? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. And you would contact Dr. Kaley? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. Is this in connection with 9 representing or testifying on behalf of 1 0 M o n s anto you c ontacted Dr. Kaley? 1 1 A . No . Because I did not testify i n 1 2 the Binghamton case. I was not involved i n 1 3 the Binghamton case. 1 4 Q. So, neither party called you, 1 5 neither of the parties? 1 6 A. Neither one. 1 7 Q. Does Monsanto make available to 1 8 you their technical and scientific staff 1 9 when you have quest ion s ? 2 0 A . Yes. I f i t ' s a quest ion that I 2 1 feel and they feel i s r e levant t o both our 2 2 interests, yes. 2 3 Q . Well, speaking of both your 2 4 interests, isn't it fair to say that you 2 5 have an ongoing relationship with Monsanto GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 187 WATER PCB-SD0000029622 1 Chemical Company where you agree to act as 2 a witness testifying on their behalf, 3 should they desire to call you for that 4 purpose? 5 A. No, that is not true. 6 MR. MALIN : Objection to the 7 question. Answer the question. 8 A. No, it's not, because I have no 9 agreement with Monsanto. They call me up 1 0 and say here is this problem, would you 1 1 care to come out and discuss it, I could 1 2 say no, I'm going to Europe this week, 1 3 forget it. There is no agreement which I 1 4 am forced to testify or have any particular 1 5 obligation to Monsanto to testify as to my 1 6 opinion or the facts in the case. 1 7 Q. So, you're saying that you have 1 8 no agreement that obligates you to testify 1 9 on their behalf? 2 0 A. That is completely correct. 2 1 Q. But, you are willing to testify 2 2 on their behalf? 2 3 MR. MALIN : I object to the form 2 4 of that question. 25 A. I don't know what you mean by on GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 188 WATER PCB-SD0000029623 1 their behalf. Because I am not testifying 2 on their behalf, I am testifying as to the 3 facts of the case and my opinion in the 4 case. If that's on Monsanto's behalf, 5 fine. So be it. If it isn't, so be it, 6 also. 7 Q You came to this deposition 8 willingly? 9 A Beg pardon? 1 0 Q You came to this deposition 1 1 willingly? 1 2 A. Yes, I did. 1 3 Q. You agreed to appear here today 1 4 and testify? 1 5 A. Yes, I did. 1 6 Q. You were identified asa witness 1 7 by Monsanto Corporation, Monsanto Company, 1 8 whatever their name is? 1 9 A. I have no knowledge about that. 2 0 Q. You don't know? 2 1 A. I don't know. 2 2 MR . MALIN : I s that a question? 2 3 MR . COHEN : Do you know the 2 4 c i r c umstances under which you are appearing 2 5 here today and t e s t i f yin g, si r ? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 189 WATER PCB-SD0000029624 1 A . N o , sir, I don ' t . Not the 1 e g a 1 2 C i rc ums ta nce s . 3 Q Have you e v e r t e s t i fie d ad v e rse 4 t o the i n teres t s of M o n s a n t o Company r t o 5 you r k n o w ledge 7 6 MR . MAL IN : I o b j e c t to t h e form 7 o f that q u e s t i on. He ' s air eady disc u s s e d 8 the con d i t i o n s under w h i c h h e has 9 t e s t i f i e d , and I don' t thin k it s h o u 1 d b e 1 0 p 1 a c e d up on hi m to c h a r a c t e r i z e what i s 1 1 a d v erse But you may a n s w e r the q u e s t ion. 1 2 i f you c a n . 1 3 A . I ha v e test i f i ed i n cases w h ere 1 4 Mon s a n t o was i n v o 1 v e d a n d w h e re juri e s 1 5 d i s agre e d with my p o i n t o f v i e w, and that 1 6 may h a v e been very we 1 1 a d v e r s e to 1 7 Mon s a n t o . 18 Q . The result may ha v e been a dverse 1 9 t o M o n s a n t o . But my q u e s t i o n is, si r , were 2 0 you eve r c a 1 1 e d to t e s t i f y a n d to e s p o u s e a 2 1 p o s i t i o n contr ary to the i n t e rests o f 2 2 Mon santo? 2 3 MR . MALIN : I o b j e c t to t h e form 2 4 o f that q u e s t i o n . 2 5 A . Yes. I don ' t know exactly what GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI [ 19 0 WATER PCB-SD0000029625 1 all the interests of Monsanto were i n any 2 particula r case. 3 Q - Have you ever agreed to offer 4 expert te stimony, that is, render an 5 opinion o n behalf of a party who is making 6 claim aga i n s t Mo n s a n t o ? 7 A . Not t h at I r e c a 11, no. s i r . 8 Q I n the cases w h ere you d i d 9 testify a n d the jury has disagreed w i th 1 0 what you said w a s your p o i n t of v i ew , did 1 1 any of t h o s e cas es involv e claim s o f injury 1 2 from expo sure t o PCB's? 1 3 A . I n the first pi ace, I d i d n o t say 1 4 that the jury d i sagreed w i t h my po i n t o f 1 5 view, I s aid the jury r e n d e r e d a V e r d i c t 1 6 that was not consonant with my point of 1 7 view. 1 8 Q Okay. Let's deal with those 1 9 cases as you describe them. Did any of 2 0 those cas es involve claims of alleged 2 1 injury fr om exposure to PCB's? 2 2 MR. MALIN : Excuse me. I'll 2 3 object to that question unless you 2 4 character ize what kind of injury you're 2 5 talking a bout. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 1 9i WATER PCB-SD0000029626 1 M R . COHEN I don't care what 2 injury, I don't care if they slipped and 3 fell. 4 MR. MALIN: Personal injury, 5 property damage? 6 MR. COHEN: I said I don't care 7 what the injury is, I don't care if he 8 slipped and -- 9 A. The Scott case that you were 1 0 referring to before, he alleged injuries. 1 1 Q. Yes. But I'm talking about where 1 2 the jury rendered a verdict that was 1 3 contrary to your espoused point of view? 1 4 A. Well, I do not know what reasons 1 5 the jury had for rendering a particular 1 6 verdict. 1 7 Q. What was the verdict in the Scott 1 8 case? 1 9 A. The Scott case was a verdict for 2 0 the defendant. 2 1 Q. I'm talking about cases in which 22 there was a verdict for the claimant. Any 2 3 cases in which there was a verdict for the 2 4 claimant where you testified and the 2 5 claimed injury was from PCB's? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 <4 0 WATER PCB-SD0000029627 1 A . There was one case i n which the 2 man did not allege any i n jury t but he said 3 he was fearful he had on e . 4 Q What case was that? 5 A . Bad Axe, Michi g a n . 6 Q What were the name o f the 7 litigants, do you know? 8 A. I don't recall them. It was two 9 years ago, three years ago. 1 0 Q. Did the claimant in that case 1 1 introduce experts of their own? 1 2 A. I was not there at the trial any 1 3 more than my own appearance, I did not go 1 4 through the records of the other witnesses, 1 5 so I do not know. 1 6 Q. Did your counsel or the counsel 1 7 for Monsanto advise you that they had 1 8 experts? 1 9 A. They, meaning the other -- the 2 0 plaintiffs? 2 1 Q. The plaintiffs, yes. 2 2 A. I don't know if he did or not. 2 3 Q. What ailments did the claimant in 2 4 the Bad Axe, Michigan case claim he was 25 fearful of getting? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 193 WATER PCB-SD0000029628 1 A . He was fearful of getting cancer. 2 Q. Any particular type of cancer? 3 A. Any kind. 4 Q. And the jury found in his favor? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. Do you know what the award was? 7 A. No,Idon't. 8 Q. What was your opinion in that 9 case? 10 MR. MALIN: I'll object to the 11 form of the question. What was your 1 2 opinion of that case o r what o p i n i o n did 1 3 you give in that case ? 14 MR. COHEN: Not his opinion of 15 that case. I probably know. What was his 1 6 opinion in the case? 1 7 A. My opinion was that -- of the 1 8 case, was that after reviewing the man's 1 9 medical record, after reviewing his alleged 2 0 exposure, there was no connection between 2 1 his -- between any ill health and PCB's. 2 2 Of course, he did not allege any ill 23 health. So, as far as my opinion as to 2 4 whether a man should be recompensed for 2 5 worrying that down the road he may get GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 94 WATER PCB-SD0000029629 1 cancer when there had been no reported 2 cases of human cancer caused by P C B , in my 3 opinion. it was a very poor j udg m e n t on the 4 part of the jury. 5 Q. Did this individual demonstrate a 6 body burden from PCB's? 7 A . I do not b e 1 i e v e h e had any - 8 I'm not certain a b out that. 9 Q Would i t b e fair t o say. sir. 1 0 that in the course o f your forensi c 1 1 consulting that i f you have a q u e s t i o n 1 2 regarding any aspect of the science 1 3 pertaining to P C B ' s , that you can contact 1 4 individuals at Monsanto and they will give 1 5 you information? 1 6 A. I think that's a very broad 17 question. I don't think I can answer 18 that. Any aspect of PCB's, I don't think 19 that's correct. So, the answer is that is 20 not fair to say. If there is something I 2 1 feel strongly enough about that I needed to 2 2 prepare myself for depositions or cross 23 examination in fields that I am not up to 2 4 date in, I can ask them and they will tell 25 me about it, if they know it. But to say GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 5 WATER PCB-SD0000029630 1 that they would tell me everything they 2 know about the intracacies o f P C B and P C B 3 case s , that i s not correct. I don'' t t h ink 4 they ' d tell m e . 5 Q. Let me ask you this, did you 6 contact anyone at Monsanto Cor up-to-date 7 information before coming to give this 8 deposition? 9 A. No, I did not. 1 0 Q. Who was your successor at 1 1 Monsanto? 1 2 A . Dr. George R o u s h , R-o-u-s-h. 1 3 Q Is Dr. Rous h s t i 1 1 in that 1 4 position? 1 5 A . No, he reti red a year ago. 1 6 Q And who is D r . R o ush's successor? 1 7 A . I think it' s a Dr . F r i e d e w a 1 d , 1 8 F-r-i-e-d -e-w-a-l-d. 1 9 Q Friedewald? 2 0 A . Friedewald, or Freedwald, I'm not 2 1 certain. 2 2 Q Do you know his first name? 2 3 A . No, I don't 2 4 Q What exactl y did Dr. Kaley tell 2 5 you about the require ment for the presence GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000029631 1 of oxygen in order to form PCDF's within 2 the temperature ranges that he had told you 3 about? 4 MR. MALIN: I'll object to the 5 form of the question, be c a u s e I don ' t 6 u n d e r s t a n d it, or unders t a n d how i t c an b e 7 an s wered . If you think you d o , a 11 e m p t t o 8 a n s w e r it 9 A . Well, I'm not so s u r e you m e a n 10 w h a t you said, exactly. I c an n o t g i v e y o u 1 1 the exact details, but h e s a id a t c e r tain 1 2 - - c e r t a in temperatures P C B ' s a r e f o rmed 13 i n the pr esence of oxyge n . A f t e r you pas s 1 4 t h i s part icular window o f t e m p e r ature and 1 5 r e a c h a n o ther level, the P C B ' s a r e 16 d e s troyed . That's what he t old m e . That ' s 1 7 the gist of what he told m e . 1 8 Q Did he say tha t t h e ox yge n had t o 1 9 b e in the form of free o x y g e n ? C o u 1 d i t b e 2 0 i n the f o rm of air, could it b e i n t h e form 2 1 o f water vapor, any of those , d o y o u know ? 22 A. No. But the i nference w a s it was 2 3 jus t o x y g en anyplace you can get i t 2 4 Q That would include w a t e r vapor o r 2 5 air? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | WATER PCB-SD0000029632 1 A . That's correct. 2 Q Now, you said that you had done 3 some acut e studies on various batches 4 during th e '50's, do you remember that. 5 sir? 6 A. Yes, I do. I do remember, yes. 7 Q What did you mean by various 8 batches? That's various production batches 9 of the m a terial? 1 0 A . That's right. 1 1 Q So, you used various production 1 2 batches o f the material and had it sent out 1 3 to labora tories and did acute toxicity 1 4 studies? 1 5 A . That is correct. 1 6 Q What were the laboratories 1 7 involved? 1 8 A . Scientific Associates or Younger 1 9 Laborator Y 2 0 Q And these, again, were tests done 2 1 during th e ' 5 0 ' s ? 2 2 A . 0 h r '50 's, ' 6 0 ' s . 2 3 Q Y o U used Sc i e n t i f i c As s o c i a t e s 2 4 and Young e r S t raight thr o u g h the ' 6 0 ' s ? 25 A. Ye s . And s o m e o f the '70' s , GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 1 98 WATER PCB-SD0000029633 1 probably. Now, we started with Scientific 2 Associates. Younger, who was one of their 3 partners, split up, so then most of the 4 cases went to Younger afterwards, although 5 we used both interchangeably. But the 6 majority of the latter day work was with 7 Younger Laboratories. 8 Q. Who made the selection of the 9 laboratory? 1 0 A. Beg pardon? 1 1 Q. Who made the selection of the 1 2 laboratory? 1 3 A. Either I or Mr. Wheeler, who was 1 4 administratively in charge of toxicology, 1 5 or one of our toxicologists. We had a Dr. 1 6 t h e r e , later a Dr . Levin skis. 1 7 Q What is Dr . Hu n t ' s full name? 18 A. William Hunt. And he is dead. 1 9 Q I guess I won' t be able to ask 2 0 him any questions about this. 2 1 A. Not today. 2 2 Q. What was his doctorate in, do you 2 3 know? 2 4 A. Pharmacology. 2 5 Q. And he was a toxicologist, then? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 1 99 WATER PCB-SD0000029634 1 A . WWeellll, he was as I said i n 2 those day s, yes, he wa s a toxicologist from 3 one of t h e pharmaceuti cal companies; 4 Johnson a nd Johnson, I believe. 5 Q And Dr. Levi nskis? 6 A . George Levin skis. 7 Q Is he alive? 8 A . Yes, he's al ive, and he's working 9 for Monsa n t o . 1 0 Q What was his doctorate in? 1 1 A . I don't know 1 2 Q Do you know what position he held 1 3 in those days? 1 4 A . Well, he was toxicologist at 1 5 Lederle Laboratories. 1 6 Q So, when he came with you, he was 1 7 a toxicologist? 1 8 A . Yes. 1 9 Q What positio n does he hold now? 2 0 A . Beg pardon? 2 1 Q Do you know what position he 2 2 holds now 7 23 A . He holds wha t now? 2 4 Q Yes. 2 5 A . Well, he's s till a toxicologist. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 200 WATER PCB-SD0000029635 1 Q. And Mr. Wheeler, who is that? 2 A. He was an industrial hygienist, 3 who was administratively in charge of the 4 paramedical part of our organization. 5 Levinskis and Hunt reported to Wheeler. 6 Wheeler is now dead, also. 7 Q. So, between the four of you, 8 someone would select the appropriate 9 laboratory? 10 A. Yes. It wasn't a big deal, they 1 1 were both adequate to do what we wanted to 1 2 have done. 1 3 Q. And, again, who established the 1 4 protocols for the tests? 1 5 A. Well, the protocols were pretty 16 standard. There was a standard LD 50 1 7 protocol, there was a standard MLD, that's 1 8 minimum lethal dose for rabbits, for skin 19 absorption. There was a standard test for 2 0 dropping material in the eye, which was 21 standardized by the government. And you 2 2 didn't need a protocol to have the animal 2 3 breathe saturated vapor for X period of 2 4 time. 2 5 Q, You say you did not need a GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 9n i WATER PCB-SD0000029636 1 protocol? 2 A. You didn't need a standard 3 protocol. I mean, that was self-evident. 4 what t o d o . 5 Q And, again. you never asked to 6 see and do not recall a t this time 7 receiving the raw data that was produced 8 from the tests? 9 A. Well, now, again, when you say 1 0 raw data, if we get an LD 50, they've got a 1 1 report that shows the animal is exposed to 1 2 10, 12 varying doses by mouth, until -- 1 3 various animals are, not the same animal. 14 That is listed in the final report. But, 15 then, you derive the LD 50. But if you 1 6 mean by the raw data that they say rat X 1 7 died, weighed this much, we did not receive 1 8 that stuff. 1 9 Q. Whatever data they included in 2 0 the report you had, other than that you 2 1 would not have had? 2 2 A. That's correct. 2 3 Q. Did you have written contracts 2 4 with these laboratories in those days? 2 5 A. I don't think so. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000029637 1 Q When did you first start using 2 IBT? 3 A . Prob ably in the early '6 0 ' s , late 4 ' 5 0 ' s , I ' m not sure 5 Q What was the first contact with 6 IBT? 7 A . I t h ink D r. Joe Calandra came 8 down to Monsan to an d talked to me. 9 Q Who is -- 1 0 A . C-a- 1 -a-n-d-r-a . 1 1 Q His first name? 1 2 A . Jose ph . 1 3 Q S o , he so licited your business? 1 4 A . That ' s co rrect . 1 5 Q To y our k nowledge, had he been 1 6 doing any work for Monsanto at that time? 17 A. No . I w a s the first contact he 1 8 had. 1 9 Q And what services did he offer to 2 0 you? 2 1 A . I c a n't h ear you. What did you 2 2 say? 23 Q. What serv ices did he offer to 2 4 you? 2 5 A. Anything we needed in GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI ] 9m WATER PCB-SD0000029638 1 toxicology. He had very sophisticated 2 toxicological laboratories up there. And 3 he gave me a list of his customers -- of 4 his c 1 i ents, rather. a lot of the large 5 c h e m i c a 1 companies; A r b y, the FDA, a w h 6 host of people. 7 Q. As I understand it, there 8 ultimately became some question about some 9 of the testing that IBT was doing for 1 0 Monsanto not on PCB products, is that 1 1 correct? 12 MR. MALIN: I object to the form 1 3 ofthequestion. , 14 A. It wasn't a question. He said he 1 5 understood it. 1 6 Q. Are you aware of the fact that 1 7 some question was raised of some of the 1 8 toxicologic studies that IBT did at the 1 9 request of Monsanto on products not 2 0 involving PCB's? 21 A. Yes. I do not know -- yes, 2 2 that's correct, not involving PCB. 2 3 Q. Do you know if any question was 2 4 ever raised regarding the toxicologic tests 2 5 that IBT did on PCB's? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 204 WATER PCB-SD0000029639 1 A. I never knew it. It was never 2 raised by Monsanto. It was never raised, 3 to the best of my knowledge, by the Food 4 and Drug Administration, which we gave the 5 reports to at the conclusion of the testing 6 by IBT, and we had talked to the Food and 7 Drug Administration before we started the 8 tests, and said this is what we're going to 9 do, and they said that's fine, that's okay 1 0 with us. 1 1 Q. Well, the questions that were 1 2 raised regarding IBT's procedures on 1 3 non-PCB products came somewhat after your 1 4 inception of the relationship with IBT? 1 5 A. After what? 1 6 Q. You started your relationship 1 7 with IBT? 1 8 A . Yes. 1 9 Q Is that right? 2 0 A . I started, yes. 2 1 Q And then questions arose later 2 2 regarding IBT's procedures, is that 2 3 correct? 24 A Yes. After I left Monsanto. 2 5 Q After you left Monsanto? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 205 WATER PCB-SD0000029640 1 A. After I left Monsanto. 2 Q. So, that would have be e n after 3 1974? 4 A. After December 1, 1974 5 Q. In fact, there was a c riminal 6 prosecution of certain individua 1 s 7 associated with IBT, was there n o t ? 8 A. That is correct. 9 Q. Is that Kaplinger, is that the 1 0 name? 1 1 A . K - a - p-l-i-n-g-e-r. 1 2 Q . Were you called upon o testify 13 onnection with any of that riminal 1 4 gat i on? 1 5 A . No, sir. 1 6 Q . Were you ever interv wed by any 1 7 law enforcement authorities in c onnection 1 8 with that litigation? 1 9 A. I was never interviewe d by 20 anyone. All I knew about the ca se was what 2 1 I read in the papers, newspapers 2 2 Q. Did anything that occu rred, to 2 3 your knowledge, in any of the to xicologic 2 4 testing that IBT did on PCB prod ucts ever 2 5 cause you to have any questions about their GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | WATER PCB-SD0000029641 j 1 methodology? 2 MR . MAL I N : I object to the form 3 of that question, its marginal relevancy, 4 If you think you under stand that question, 5 try to answer it. 6 A. The answer i s no, because we had 7 our own toxicologists go up to IBT every 8 month. Dr. Hunt go up. 9 Q. Who was it? 10 A. Dr. Hunt. D r. Levinskis went up 11 there after he came on board. I went up 1 2 there, mostly on budge t a r y matter s , but I 1 3 did go through the ani m a 1 rooms j u s t for 1 4 interest, for intellec t u a 1 sake. and at n 1 5 time did I have any qu alms about the type 1 6 of work they were doin g 1 7 Q. Are you sati sfied today that the 1 8 results of the tests that IBT did fo r you 1 9 in PCB products are accurate and rel i a b 1 e ? 20 A. Yes. They're accurate and 2 1 they're reliable, because some of th e m have 2 2 been duplicated by the National Cane e r 2 3 In s tit u te, they didn't find any illn esses 24 or any problems. Kimbrough did some work, 2 5 she found some differences with the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 207 WATER PCB-SD0000029642 1 histology of the livers. There was nothing 2 else found, so I would say that I'm quite 3 satisfied with what happened. 4 Q At IBT ? 5 A . At IB T. 6 Q With respect to PCB products? 7 A . That's correct. 8 Q The matters that became the 9 subject of the criminal investigation, were 1 0 they -- did they involve tests that you 1 1 had contracted for? 1 2 A . I don't even know which ones were 1 3 because some times we had -- I 1 4 , there were many agricultura 1 15 tests. We did have -- if we had an 1 6 agricultural test, I went along, if we had 1 7 a -- we had a few pharmaceuticals, if we 1 8 had a pharmaceutica 1 test. I may not have 19 gone a1 ong . I don' t know whether any o f 2 0 the ones were ones that I had anythin g to 21 do with. Although i n agri cultural ca s e s , 2 2 i f there were any o f those involved. I was 23 i n v o 1 v e d in the ear iy days 24 MR. MALIN Don' t speculate # 25 A. Okay. Sorry. The answer is, I GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 208 WATER PCB-SD0000029643 1 don't know. 2 MR. COHEN: There is nothing you 3 can identify for us today? 4 A . N o , I cannot iden tify them. 5 Q Did a person who was on the staff 6 of IBT s u b s e q u ently become an employee of 7 Monsanto? 8 A. Yes. He was an employee before 9 he went up th ere, and he was an employee 1 0 after he came back 1 1 Q . Who was that? 1 2 A . Dr . Paul Wright, W -r-i-g-h-t. 13 Q. Now, when washis tenure of 1 4 employment with Monsanto before he went to 1 5 IBT, do you know? 1 6 A. When was it? 1 7 Q. Yes. 1 8 A. He was a Ph.D that worked in the 19 agricultural research department. I do not 20 know how long he worked there. But he went 2 1 up to IBT sometime around 1970 or '71, 22 worked up at IBT for two years, came back 2 3 to Monsanto in themedical department as a 24 second toxicologist. By this time Dr. Hunt 2 5 was dead, so he took his place, and that GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 209 WATER PCB-SD0000029644 1 was in ' 6 3 or -- I mean, '73 or '74. 2 Q During t h e time period that D r . 3 Wright was with I B T , was IBT doing an Y 4 tests on the t o x i c o logic properties o f 5 P C B ' s, to your k n o w ledge? 6 A . Yes, t h ey were. 7 Q . Do you k n ow which tests in 8 particular they w e r e doing? 9 A. No , I d o n 't remember. I do n * t 1 0 know. 1 1 Q During t h at time period, wo u 1 d 1 2 they have been do i n g tests that you h a d 1 3 requested be perf o r m e d ? 1 4 A . Oh, yes 1 5 Q So, up - - 1 6 A . I r e q u e s t ed all the tests that 1 7 were done by IBT o n PC B ' s . 1 8 Q All the t ests that they did 1 9 during your tenur e were worked on at your 2 0 request? 2 1 A . That ' s c o rrect . 2 2 Q . Again, d i d you ever receive any 2 3 of the raw data f rora any of the tests ? 2 4 A . Raw d a t a ? 2 5 Q Yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 210 WATER PCB-SD0000029645 1 A . No, I did not. 2 Q. Do you know where that raw data 3 would be? 4 A. Yes. Listing the animals by 5 number,listing their weight, listing what 6 happened to them, listing their doses, yes. 7 Q. Do you know where that raw data 8 would be maintained? 9 MR. MALIN: If he's got them 1 0 right now,in other words? 1 1 A. Where it is now? 1 2 Q Yes. 1 3 A. I haven't the slightest idea. 1 4 Q. Other than IBT, were you asking 1 5 any laboratory to perform any toxicologic 1 6 studies on PCB products during the '60's? 1 7 A. Outside of Younger and Scientific 1 8 As sociates? 19 Q Yes. You had i d e n t i f i e d the a s 2 0 starting during the '50' s , and P e r h a p s 2 1 doing wo r k into the '60' s a n d e v e n u n t 1 22 the '70' s . Any one else? 2 3 A . No, w e did not 24 Q And h o w about i n the 7 0 ' s , ther 2 5 than t h o s e t h r e e laboratori e s , S c i e n t i i c GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 21 1 WATER PCB-SD0000029646 1 Associates Younger and I BT ? 2 A . No. 3 Q. Doctor, would the five 4 publications that appear here under 5 bibliography be the entirety of your 6 published output? 7 A. Yes, it is. 8 Q. Do you have anyother articles, 9 any other documents of any kind that are 1 0 submitted for publication, but have not yet 1 1 been published? 1 2 A. No, I have not. 1 3 MR. COHEN: Let's take a five 1 4 minute break. 1 5 (Recess) . 1 6 MR. COHEN: Doctor, we have been 1 7 discussing in today's proceedings these 1 8 various tests that you had asked to be 1 9 performed, apparently the tests that were 2 0 cooperated with in the mid to late '30's up 2 1 through the early ' 7 0 ' s; is there any way 2 2 you could tell me today in some sort of 2 3 summary fashion what were the results you 2 4 got from these tests? 2 5 MR. MALIN: I object to the form GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 7l 7 WATER PCB-SD0000029647 1 0 f that questi on. If you think you can 2 a n s wer it in a summary fashion. you can 3 attempt to do so. 4 A. Yes. I think the bottom line is 5 that PCB is an industrial product that has 6 a certain amount of toxicity, which is not 7 unique to industrial products. I do not 8 think it's a condition of very -- a 9 product of high toxicity from the 10 industrial point of view. 11 can be 1 1 absorbed through the skin. i t can be 12 absorbed by mouth . It has a -- and can be 13 absorbed through the lungs. Definite 1 4 levels -- definite safe levels are 1 5 accepted by the American Conference of 1 6 Government and Industrial Hygienists, and 1 7 levels in food have been accepted by the 1 8 FDA . 1 9 Q. Doctor, by the American 2 0 Conference -- 2 1 A. Conference of Governmental 2 2 Hygienists. 23 MR. MALIN: I think he's asking, 2 4 also, with respect to, you had these tests 2 5 done for worker safety, I think he would GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 13 WATER PCB-SD0000029648 1 like to know what your opinion or 2 conclusion is with respect to that? 3 A. The conclusion, furthermore, was 4 that material can be handled safely if 5 simple precautions are carried out. 6 Q. Now, when you say they have a 7 certain toxicity. what do 8 certain toxicity. Doctor? 9 A. Well, it does posess toxicity, 1 0 but everything posesses toxicity. Aspirin 11 posesses toxicity. But I said it has a 1 2 level, an acute level of roughly 4 grams 1 3 per kilogram, which is not a particularly 14 t e do s e . 11 h a s a safe level in 1 5 p p r o x i m a t e 1 y a hundred parts per 1 6 n the i r diet f o r two ye a r s . 1 7 What h a p p e n s i f that 1 e v e1 is 1 8 exceeded, a hundred parts per million for 1 9 two years? 2 0 A. Beg pardon? 2 1 Q. What happens if a hundred parts 2 2 per million is exceeded in dogs in their 2 3 diet for two years? 24 A. They develop microscopic changes 2 5 in the liver. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUI S, MISSOURI 2 14 WATER PCB-SD0000029649 1 Q Any other changes ? 2 A . Not that I can r e c a 1 1 . 3 Q Any other types of changes ? 4 A . N o , sir. 5 Q Any n e o p 1 a Stic lesi o n s ? 6 A. With 1260 there have been cases 7 of neoplastic lesions. 8 Q. What animals? 9 A. Beg pardon? 1 0 Q. In what animals? 1 1 A . I n female -- one gender of 1 2 I don ' t k now which one. Kimbrough foun 1 3 some. a n d I think some Japanese worker 1 4 found some in rats, also. 1 5 Q. And this is PCB's we're talking 1 6 about; 1260, Aroclor 1260? 1 7 A . Yes. 1 8 Q. Neoplastic lesions in female 1 9. rats? 2 0 A. I believe it's -- in one gender 2 1 of rat, I don't know whether Kimbrough used 2 2 male or female. 2 3 Q. Do you know where the lesions 2 4 were located? 25 A. They were located in the liver. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 215 WATER PCB-SD0000029650 1 Q. Any neoplastic changesfound in 2 any other animals in any other organ? 3 A. No, sir, not that I can recall. 4 Q. Any neoplastic changes found in 5 the organs of the involved animals, rats? 6 A. You mean other than the liver? 7 Q. Yes, sir. 8 A. No, sir. 9 Q. These lesions were, I gather, 1 0 deemed to be primary site lesions? 11 A. Yes. But they were -- they did 1 2 not metastasize. 1 3 Q. Over what period of time did they 1 4 not metastasize, sir? 1 5 A. Not in the life-time of the 16 animals. In fact, the animals that had the 1 7 lesions lived as long or even longer than 1 8 the control animals. 1 9 Q. Of course, in order to determine 2 0 they had lesions, were they sacrificed? 2 1 A. At the end of their life, yes, at 2 2 the end of two years. 23 Q. What would be the life span of 2 4 those rats absent the sacrifice, do you 2 5 know? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 216 WATER PCB-SD0000029651 1 A. Two years, two years two months, 2 something like that. 3 Q. So, you're saying that they were 4 sacrificed, to your knowledge, at about 5 their life span? 6 A . That ' s c o r r e c t . 7 Q . And they had neoplastic c h a g e s 8 in their liver s t h at did not metas t a s z e ? 9 A . That ' s c orrect. 1 0 Q. Are you aware of the formati on of 1 1 neoplastic lesions in the organs of an y 1 2 other species of animals as a result o f 1 3 tests? 1 4 A Any other organs besides the 1 5 liver? 1 6 Q. Yes. 1 7 A. Statistically accepted amounts? 1 8 I mean, obviously, if you take a batch of 1 9 rats you are going to get lesions at the 2 0 conclusion of their life span. You're 21 going to get malignant lesions. You'll 2 2 also get them in the controls. But there 23 was not any significant excess of any, to 2 4 the best of my knowledge, with the 2 5 exception of the liver in these rats. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 71 7 WATER PCB-SD0000029652 1 Q Are you talking about to a 2 statistic ally significant degree, is that 3 what you' re talking about? 4 A . That's right. 5 Q Do you know what that means? 6 A . Sure. 7 Q - Tell me what it means? 8 A . It means that if you have a 9 series of animals and you find a certain 1 0 number of tumors in these animals and you 1 1 have a certain equivalent number ofcontrol 1 2 animals and you find a certain number of 1 3 the same tumor in these animals, you can 1 4 arrive mathematically at a significant -- 1 5 you can decide whether or not there is a 1 6 significant excess in one case over the 17 other. If you flip a penny up in the air, 1 8 it may come up heads five times, but that 1 9 doesn't mean that there is a statistically 2 0 significant increase in heads over tails, 2 1 because if you flip it ten thousandtimes 2 2 it will come up five thousand heads and 23 five thousand tails. So, there is quite an 2 4 elaborate scientific method to decide 2 5 whether or not any particular lesion is GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 2 10 WATER PCB-SD0000029653 1 scientifically valid as to excess number . 2 Q. Did you study statistics, a 3 statistical sampling technique as part of 4 your undergraduate study? 5 A. No, I did not. 6 Q. Did you study it as part ofyour 7 graduate work? 8 A . No. 9 Q. Have you studied statistical 1 0 sampling techniques subsequent to your 1 1 conclusion of your formal education as a 1 2 medical doctor? 13 A. No. But I've talked to a lot of 1 4 statisticians, and I've talked to 1 5 epidemiologists, some may have rubbed off 1 6 on me. 17 Q. Would itbe fair to say that the 1 8 explanation you just gave about your 1 9 talking with epidemiologists and 2 0 statisticians is the part that rubbed off? 2 1 A . I think s o . 2 2 Q When something is found to exist 2 3 to a s t a t istically significant degree, what 2 4 does that mean, do you know? 2 5 A . There is only a certain GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI ] 9 1 <4 WATER PCB-SD0000029654 1 likelihood that it can occur by chance. 2 Q . What is that likelihood that it 3 will occur by chance? 4 A. Well, it could vary a great 5 deal. I mean, are you talking about what 6 makes it significant -- statistically 7 significant? 8 Q . Yes. 9 A. Usually, you use the perc e n t a g e 1 0 that -- there is only a 5 perc e n t c h a n c e 11 that this can occur by chance. S o m e people 1 2 break it down lower, it might be only 1 1 3 percent or 2 percent likelihood that this 1 4 can occur by chance. 1 5 Q. So, you would say, then, 1 6 something occurs to a significantly -- is 1 7 a statistically significant degree if it is 1 8 95 percent certain that it does not occur 1 9 by chance? 2 0 A. That's correct. 2 1 Q. And is that part of the knowledge 2 2 of statistical methods that has rubbed off 2 3 on you over the years? 2 4 A. That's correct. 2 5 Q. Now, were the tests that were GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 220 WATER PCB-SD0000029655 1 performed at your request done using these 2 statistically significant analytical 3 methods that we're discussing? 4 A. I think the -- I don't think 5 it's fair to say they were performed. The 6 results were subjected to statistical 7 analysis. When we set out, we set out with 8 a large enough number that we hoped we 9 would have survivors that would give us a 1 0 statistically yes or no answer, 1 1 statistically significant yes or no answer. 1 2 Q. What were the longest chronic 1 3 exposure tests that you ever ordered done 1 4 on animals during the forty some years of 1 5 your tenure with Monsanto when you were 1 6 ordering tests done? 1 7 A . With PCB ' s ? 1 8 Q Yes. 1 9 A . Two years. 2 0 Q Was that in rats? 2 1 A . Rats and dogs. 2 2 Q Did the dogs display any evidence 2 3 o p 1 a Stic lesions? 24 A . No . 25 Q Were the dogs sacrificed? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 22 1 WATER PCB-SD0000029656 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24^ 25I A . Yes. Q At the e n A . Yes, sir. Q Two years A . Yes, sir. Q What's t h dog s ? A . Of a dog? Q And no f o obviously, because all the dogs were sacrificed? A. Beg pardon? Q. No follow-up on the animals was done because all the dogs were sacrificed? A. That's correct. Q. What was the method of exposure during those chronic tests? A. By mouth. Q. Ingestion? A. Ingestion. Q. Now, you mentioned other researchers other than the ones that we here today. You fellow, the name u mentioned D r . GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS, MISSOURI 22: WATER PCB-SD0000029657 1 Kimbrough 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. Any others that you're aware of 4 who -- I think you mentioned Vos earlier 5 today? 6 A. Yes. And there were people at 7 the National Cancer Institute that did work 8 with 1254, which is a PCB. 9 Q. Did Monsanto at any time fund any 1 0 research work being done by independent 1 1 scientists? 1 2 A. Does Monsanto at any time do 1 3 what? 1 4 Q. Fund research work being done by 1 5 independent scientists? 16 MR. MALIN: You're talking about 1 7 on PCB ' s, PCB - 18 MR. COHEN: Yes. 1 9 A. Calandra was an -- at IBT was an 2 0 independent scientist. 2 1 Q. You hired him to do a job for 2 2 you? 23 A. Yes. But we funded it. You 2 4 asked about an independent scientist, he 2 5 was certainly independent of Monsanto and GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 223 WATER PCB-SD0000029658 1 he was funded by Monsanto. 2 Q. Let's put aside Calandra, which 3 is IBT, Younger, and the Scientific 4 Associates, whatever it was. Let's also 5 put aside the chap who did thework for the 6 Halowax test at Harvard. Other than those 7 folks, did Monsanto fund any research work 8 being done by any other independent 9 scientists? 1 0 A. I do not know of any. 1 1 Q. You certainly were not involved 1 2 in the funding or the agreement to fund any 1 3 independent work? 1 4 A. Up until 1974, if they did, I 1 5 would have known about it, and I do not 1 6 know about it. 1 7 Q. So, in other words, you were not 1 8 involved in it, you don't know of anyone in 1 9 the company who was involved in it, because 20 you would haveknown about it? 2 1 A. Up to the end of 1974. 2 2 Q. Does Monsanto corporation Belong 23 to any trade associations? 2 4 A. Yes. 2 5 Q. Can you name them for me? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 994 WATER PCB-SD0000029659 1 MR . MALIN : Chemi cal 2 Manufacturers Association. That's no 3 secret. 4 A . I know that. 5 nk what names I had 6 o n g to the National 7 m i c a 1 s Association. 8 m i c a 1 Manufacturers 9 i n g to figure out w 1 0 . God knows how ma 11 may belong to. They belong to business 1 2 groups. Chamber of Commerce. 1 3 Q. Better Business Bureau? 1 4 A. I don't know what they belong to 1 5 Q. Did the Chemical Manufacturers 1 6 Associati on, to your 1 7 research by independe 1 8 studying the toxicity 1 9 A . Of P C B ' s ? 2 0 Q Yes. 2 1 A . Not that I 2 2 their own laboratory 2 3 which was instituted 2 4 Q Where is th 2 5 A . Down in Nor GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 225 WATER PCB-SD0000029660 1 Triangle, or something like that, 2 Raleigh-Durham . 3 Q . Are they doing research on PCB's, 4 do you know? 5 A. Not that I know of. 6 Q. So, the only neoplastic lesions 7 that you're aware of as being found to a 8 statistically significant degree in the 9 scientific literature was found from an 1 0 exposure to Aroclor 1260, and those were 1 1 lesions found in the livers of rats, you 1 2 don't recall which gender? 1 3 A. That's correct. 1 4 Q. That was done by Kimbrough? 15 A. Yes. And somebody has repeated 1 6 that, but I do not know their name. 1260, 1 7 I believe, is -- I believe is an animal 1 8 carcinogen, yes. 19 Q. And is that the PCB that you 2 0 believe to be the animal carcinogen or is 2 1 it the PCDF contaminant contained therein? 2 2 A. They were given the PCB's, and 2 3 I'm not certain as to what the level of the 2 4 contaminant in the particular PCB was. 25 Q. Do you know the level of the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 226 WATER PCB-SD0000029661 1 contaminant? 2 A. No, Ido not. I said I do not 3 know the level. 4 Q . It would have been standard 1260 5 rolling out the doo r of either Anniston or 6 Krummerich that the y would have had? 7 A. That's ri g h t . 8 Q. And these lesions, to your 9 knowledge, did not metastasize prior to the 1 0 sacrifice of the an i m a 1 s ? 1 1 A. That's co r r e c t . 1 2 Q. Would you agree or disagree that 1 3 the toxicity of the substance is the same 1 4 whether the materia 1 is absorbed through 1 5 the skin, by ingest ion or through the 1 6 lungs? 1 7 MR . M AL I N : Objection to the form 1 8 0 f that question. 1 9 A . You mean any compound? 2 0 Q PCB ' s . 2 1 A . Unless I indicate otherwise, sir, 22 I ' m only talking ab out PCB's. 23 A. All right , fine. Will you repeat 2 4 the question? 2 5 (The r e q u ested portion of the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 007 WATER PCB-SD0000029662 1 record read by the reporter). 2 A . Well, first 3 toxicity of the m a t e r i 4 is higher than i t i s w 5 when inge s t e d . The c h 6 Q Let's just s 7 if we can. Doctor. I don't mean to 8 interrupt you. But when you're talki 9 about the acute toxicity when absorbe 1 0 the lungs. would that be in vapor for 11 A. Yes. It's got to be breath 1 2 Q. Suspended particles in the air? 1 3 A. Well, they're not particles, it's 14 a gas. It's volatile, it's a gas. It's 1 5 not a dust that's suspended in the air, 1 6 it's not particles like cigarette smoke. 1 7 It's a gas. 1 8 Q. Can the material be -- I guess 1 9 the word I was going to use was v a p o 2 0 but without turning it into a g a s e o u 2 1 state, that is, I guess it' s -- 2 2 A. You're talking ab out aeros 2 3 like you're spraying Vick's up your 2 4 something like that? 2 5 Q . Yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 228 WATER PCB-SD0000029663 1 A. Yes. But that 's not the way you 2 do it . You vaporize a m a t e r i a 1 in these 3 experime nts that were do n e . 4 Q That's the way the exp e r i m e n t s 5 w e r e done? 6 A . They were vapo rized . 7 Q So, in vapor f orm, a b s orpt ion 8 thr o u g h the lungs indica t e s high e r t o x i c i t 9 t h a n either through the routes o f in g e s t i o 1 0 o r whole skin absorption ? 1 1 A . Only from the acute p o i n t o f 12 vie w. If you get a larg e amount o f the 1 3 s t u f f in your lungs, you get a c u t e 1 4 pul monary edema from it. so, in that 15 sen s e . Now, there have not been , to the 1 6 b e s t of my knowledge -- 1 7 Q Please try to explain that for 18 me . Are you saying, the n, that the higher 1 9 t o X i c i t y in the acute ab sorption s t a t e 2 0 thr o u g h the lungs is the result of 1 a r g e 2 1 qua n t i t i es being inhaled and c a u sing edema 22 A. Yes. It cause s local r e a c t i o n t 23 the p u 1 m onary tissues, t o the 1 u n g t issues 2 4 Q You're not talking abo u t s y s t e m i 2 5 t o X icity as a result of the i n h a 1 a t i o n GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 229 WATER PCB-SD0000029664 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 I 23 24 2 5! route? A. No. We didn't mention systemic toxicity up to now. You asked toxicity, and I'm saying that acute toxicity is high because of local action on the lung tissue. Q. Okay. Thank you. How about systemic? A. Well, then, of course, you don't get systemic toxicity from high levels, because you kill the animal by the high levels. As far as the systemic toxicity is concerned, I don't think there is any comparison that has been identified as to the toxicity that results from long term feeding experiments and four month inhalation testing, which was the extent of the chronic inhalation. But it may very well have been the same, I don't know. Q. Do you agree or disagree that from a chronic long term exposure that the toxicity through absorption through whole skin is the same or greater than the toxicity through oral ingestion? A. We do not have information as to the long term skin absorption in animals. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 23 0 WATER PCB-SD0000029665 1 Q Do you have the results of long 2 term skin absorption in any organism? 3 A. We have had chloracne occur from 4 long term r e p e a t e d skin abso r p t i on i n 5 h u m a ns, a n d no thing else. 6 Q You' v e n e ver actua 1 1 y done any 7 t o x i city tests on h u m a n s, is that r .i g h t ? 8 A. No . But they were - - the y had 9 i n d u stria 1 exp o s u r e s that g a v e them 1 0 ch 1 orac n e 1 1 Q No t o x i c i t y tests were don e on 1 2 t h o s e hum a n s ? 1 3 A . No . 14 MR . COX : I object t o the form 15 the quest ion. T o x i city test s a r e no t don 1 6 on humans 17 MR . COHEN : C a n I have the 1 8 witness s ay t h at? No toxici t y t e s t s were 1 9 done on h u m a n s , i s that right? 2 0 A . I am not aware of any t o x i city 2 1 tests done on PCB's in humans; certainly 2 2 not under my direction. 23 Q. Thank you. And do I understand 2 4 that you're saying that the epidemiological 25 studies that you are aware of do not GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 23 1 WATER PCB-SD0000029666 1 reflect , to a statistically significant 2 d e gree , any other toxic reactio n in humans 3 a s a result of 1 o ng term chroni c exposure 4 t h rough the route o f ski n absor p t ion? 5 A. You're bringing epidemiological 6 studies -- you brought that up right at the 7 present. If we're talking about 8 epidemiological studies, let's pick the 9 epidemiological study you want to talk 1 0 about . 1 1 Q. I don't want to talk about any 1 2 one in particular, I'm asking you what 1 3 you're aware of. 14 MR. MALIN: I'm going to object 15 to the form of that question. All the 1 6 Doctor has testified to -- you're 1 7 mischaracterizing his testimony, because 1 8 all he's said is that -- 1 9 (Discussion off the record). 20 MR. MALIN: All the Doctor 2 1 discussed were experiences and observed 2 2 experiences in workers exposed to PCB's 2 3 who, as a result of that exposure, 24 apparently, developed chloracne. That 2 5 could be characterized as an GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 23 2 WATER PCB-SD0000029667 1 epidemiological study per s e . 2 MR . COHEN * You' ve made your 3 objection , Mr . Mali n , 1 e t me go on with my 4 questions . The w i t n ess can explain it t o 5 me, he's, o b v i o u s 1 y , v ery onversant with 6 the subje c t . You w ere say ng before. they 7 got chlor acne and n o t h ing lse; those were 8 your word s ? 9 A. That is c o r r e c t . 1 0 Q Five m i n u t e s ago in this 1 1 depositio n . W as t h a t as a result of your 1 2 knowledge o b t a i n e d from o b servations of 1 3 your own w o r k e r s ? 14 A . No . 1 5 Q Then what i s t h a t statement based 1 6 upon? 1 7 A . It's based upon my vi sit to a 1 8 thermomet er factory where they were u sing 19 PCB's, so meplace in the east. It was about 2 0 25 years ago, and th ese workers were making 2 1 thermomet ers using a bellows type 2 2 thermomet er, which i s sort of a leather 2 3 sack that contained the PCB, and they would 2 4 fill this up by putt ing the little sack 2 5 into liqu id PCB, and keep doing that, and GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | WATER PCB-SD0000029668 1 they developed chloracne . They did not 2 have anything else. And I said why don't 3 you use some sort of gimmick so they can 4 keep their hands out of this, which they 5 proceeded to do, and didn't have any more 6 chloracne. That's what it's based on. 7 Q. So, it's based upon your 8 anecdotal obsrvations? 9 A. It's not anecdotal, it's actual, 10 I saw it. I don't know what you mean by 1 1 anecdotal. I'm telling you what I saw. 1 2 That's not anecdotal, that's actual. 1 3 Q. Well, do you present that today 1 4 to be a scientific observation? 15 A. Yes. I observed it, yes. Yes, 1 6 it's a scientific observation. 1 7 Q. Did you repeat it? 1 8 A. You mean did I subject them to 1 9 more exposure when they were doing 2 0 something they shouldn't do? Of course, I 2 1 didn't. 2 2 Q . Or any other persons to some 23 exposure in order to see if you could 2 4 repeat the experience? 2 5 A. As I told you, I do not accept GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 734 WATER PCB-SD0000029669 1 toxicity testing on humans and this i s 2 certainly toxicity testing that you are 3 recommending, and I did not do that. 4 Q. Did you follow up with those 5 individuals in the thermometer works to see 6 if they ever developed any further ailments 7 at a subsequent time? 8 A . I followed up with the 9 manufacturer. Yes, I did. 1 0 Q. And can you tell me how many 1 1 years later did you continue to follow up, 1 2 for how many years? 1 3 A . L e s s t h an a year. 1 4 Q Did you ever ask to see if they 1 5 body burd e n s of PCB's? 1 6 A . A t this time, methods for 1 7 establishing body burdens for PCB's was not 1 8 inexistence. 1 9 Q. Are you aware of any of the 2 0 science that has been published, in 2 1 scientific journals and otherwise, 2 2 regarding epidemiological studies of 2 3 workers exposed during the course of their 2 4 employment to PCB's? 2 5 A. Yes, I have. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI ( 23 5 WATER PCB-SD0000029670 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24I 25| Q. Are you aware of any reported toxic reactions in any of that epidemiologic -- A. There are all sorts -- Q. I should finish that. Reported by those epidemiologic studies? MR. MALIN: Would you reask the question? (The requested portion of the record read by the reporter). A. First of all, I don't know what mean by toxic r e actions. ain that one t o me? Q . I ' m ask i n g you, sir t u n d e r s t a n d the question and if you me. I'll try to rephrase it. A. I cannot -- Q. I'm not here to answer questions, that's not my job. I ask and I don't answer. A. My job is to answer questions that I understand. So, I do not understand . Q. That's all you have to tell me, sir. I'll try to restate it. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOU I S, MISSOURI 23 6 WATER PCB-SD0000029671 1 A. Fine. 2 Q. You are aware that certain 3 researchers have done epidemiological 4 studies on populations of individuals that 5 they believe include persons occupationally 6 exposed to PCB's? 7 A . Yes, I do. 8 Q. Are you aware of any study that 9 reflects a finding to a statistically 1 0 significant degree of any ailment or 1 1 condition that the researcher connects with 1 2 the exposure to PCB's? 1 3 A . Yes, sir. 1 4 Q . What are the ailments o r 1 5 that you b e lieve the scientific 1 6 shows to b e connected t o 1 7 exposures to PCB's? 1 8 A. In the first place, you used the 19 term scientific literature. There has been 2 0 a published epidemiological study which did 2 1 show an increase in rectal cancer in one of 22 four groups. The next -- two years later 2 3 they repeated the study and didn't find an 2 4 increase in rectal cancer in any of the 2 5 groups . GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2. 3 7 WATER PCB-SD0000029672 1 Q . Stop, if youwill, please, sir. 2 Who wasthat researcher? 3 A . I can get the name for you 4 tomorrow, I cantell you about it. 5 Q. Good. Would you do that for me? 6 A. Sure. 7 Q. We'll be back tomorrow. 8 A. There have been other 9 epidemiological studies. But there are two 10 peoplewhose job is to go over 1 1 epidemiological studies that are connected 12 with the government. One is Vaneta 1 3 Kimbrough, the woman who has been acting as 14 the point person in thegovernment on PCB, 1 5 she was connected with OSHA and some other 1 6 government agencies, and she has said 1 7 despite laboratory results, with the 1 8 exception of chloracne, there have been no 1 9. chronic illnesses proven to be associated 2 0 with an industrial use of PCB. 2 1 Q. She's the same person who found 2 2 the neoplastic lesions in the livers of 2 3 rats? 2 4 A . That ' s right. So, she is an 25 unbiased person. Someone else from NIOSH, GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 238 WATER PCB-SD0000029673 1 I think his name was Smith. 2 Q. Smith? 3 A. Smith. I believe it's Smith. He 4 published the same thing. So, these are 5 the individuals that summarized all these 6 epidemiological studies. So, certainly, 7 there are epidemiological studies that show 8 somebody may have had an increase in cancer 9 of the prostate, somebody else may have an 1 0 increase in rectal cancer, but they are not 1 1 accepted by the scientific group, because 1 2 there are about four rules in epidemiology. 1 3 Q. Can you tell me them? 14 A. Yes. One, it must be dose 15 related. I n o t h e r w o r d s , the p e o P 1 e that 1 6 are expo s e d t w i c e a s much s h o u 1 d h a v e m o r 1 7 o f the i 1 1 e f f e c t s Y ou're look i n g f o r t h a 18 the people who haven't been. Number two, 19 there must be no confounding factors. That 2 0 means if you are checking to see the 2 1 prevalence of diabetes, and you don't take 2 2 into account heredity and obesity, the 23 study is no good. Number three, it must be 24 reproducab1e. If one person gets brain 25 tumors and the other one gets gout and the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000029674 1 other one gets h e art disease, those are not 2 reproduca b 1 e . W h at's the fourth? I'll 3 think of the f our th one. Dose rel a t e d , no 4 confoundi n g , I ' 1 1 think of the fou r t h one 5 as we go along 6 Q Now, y o u are not an 7 epidemiol o g i s t ? 8 A. No . S 0 , that's why I ' m taking 9 the viewp o i n t o f the two g o v e r n m e n t 1 0 epidemiol o g i s t s . 1 1 Q S o , w h a t you're telling m e , 1 2 basically , i s w h a t you understand the 1 3 viewpoint of t h e s e other individua Is to be? 14 A. No . I ' m saying what the y wrote. 1 5 It's not my u n d e r standing, they wr 0 t e this 1 6 in publis h e d a r t i c 1 e s . 1 7 Q But you 're telling me wh at you 1 8 believe to be w h a t they wrote, is that 1 9 right? 2 0 A . I'll s h ow you the articl e . 21 Q Okay Fine. 2 2 A . I k n o w what they wrote, it's not 2 3 what I believe 2 4 Q Will y o u do that? You'l 1 show me 2 5 the artic 1 e s ? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 24 0 WATER PCB-SD0000029675 1 A. Yes. S u r e , I ' 1 1 show them to 2 you. G i v e me a pie c e o f paper t o write 3 down t h e s e t h i n g s I promi s e . 4 Q Your c o u n s e 1 is right here, he 5 can wri t e them down / he's good a t that, 6 MR . MALIN W e ' v e alre ady given 7 them a 1 1 this stuff 8 MR . COHEN I d idn 1 t b ring them 9 all to S t . Lou i s . 1 0 ( D i s c u s s i o n off the re cord) . 11 M R . COHEN : Can you t e 11 me the 1 2 fourth? 1 3 A. Statistically significant. 14 MR. MALIN: Observed over 1 5 expected? 1 6 A. Well, they're well known rules of 1 7 epidemiology. 1 8 MR. MALIN: We gave them those, 1 9 too. 2 0 MR. COHEN: Did you study 2 1 epidemiology in your undergraduate work in 2 2 college? 2 3 A . No, sir. 2 4 Q. Did you study it in medical 2 5 school? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 24 1 WATER PCB-SD0000029676 1 A. I don't think there was a direct 2 course in it, no. 3 Q. Have you taken any course work in 4 a non-degree program subsequent to your 5 graduation? 6 A. No, I have not. 7 Q. What is your source of knowledge 8 regarding the four rules of epidemiology? 9 A. Published literature. Sir Henry 1 0 Dahl, those are his rules, he's the 1 1 professor of epidemiology at Oxford. 1 2 Q. Statistically significant means 1 3 the same thing as we were talking about 1 4 before, that is, 95 percent certain that 1 5 what you're observing over what you 1 6 expected has occurred, is that what that 1 7 means? 1 8 A. That's correct. 1 9 Q. Now, you were telling me about 2 0 about epidemiological studies and what you 2 1 believe the epidemiology -- and what you 22 believed the studies showed with respect to 23 toxic properties of PCB's. 24 A. No. It had no relationship to 2 5 the toxic properties, it had relationship GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 7 17 WATER PCB-SD0000029677 1 to what illnesses occurred in a group of 2 PCB workers as well as a -- the numbers of 3 the same illnesses in a non-exposed group. 4 There is no relationship to the toxicity 5 per s e. 6 Q. Let me ask you this, sir, when is 7 the last time you had occasion to check any 8 of the scientific literature with respect 9 to what is reported or attributed to 1 0 exposure to PCB's? 1 1 A. A couple months. 12 Q. A couple of months ago. What was 1 3 the occasion that caused you to check the 1 4 literature? 15 A. I think Ieither had -- was 1 6 finishing a deposition or in the middle of 1 7 a deposition or was thinking a deposition 1 8 was coming up. 1 9 Q. PCB case? 2 0 A . Yes. 2 1 Q. At whose request were you giving 2 2 a deposition? 23 A. Monsanto's. Yes, it was. 2 4 Q. Did you give a deposition? 2 5 A . Yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. L00IS, MISSOURI in WATER PCB-SD0000029678 1 Q . In what matter? 2 A . I t h i nk that was Scott number 3 two, if I ' m not mistaken. That was back 4 St. Louis. 5 Q. Scott number two? 6 A. Well, Gerard might be able to 7 tell you. Tom Carney can tell you, he's a 8 lawyer for Husch, Eppenberger, et cetera. 9 MR. MALIN: It was Scott. 1 0 A. It was Scott. 1 1 MR. MALIN: Scott, two. 1 2 MR. COHEN: At whose request did 1 3 you look at the literature? 1 4 A . Nobody's. My own. 1 5 Q Just on your own? 1 6 A . That' s correct. 1 7 Q . Just to refresh your 1 8 was happe n i n g ? 1 9 A . That' s correct. 2 0 Q . What are the definit 2 1 that have been accepted by the 2 2 Conference of Industrial Hygienists? 23 A. .5 million grams per cubic meter 2 4 of air for 1254 and point -- and 1.0 for 2 5 1242, I believe. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 244 WATER PCB-SD0000029679 1 Q. And what is the safe level, as 2 you called it, established for food by FDA? 3 A. I'm sorry,I didn't hear what you 4 said. 5 Q. You said a certain safe level was 6 established for food products by FDA? 7 A. Yes. I think they had a -- I 8 thought it was, to the best of my 9 recollection, one or two parts per million 10 in the edible portion. They may have 1 1 different levels for different foods. 1 2 Q . I'm sorry, can you read that 1 3 back? 1 4 (The requested portion of the 1 5 record read by the reporter). 16 MR. COHENs What is IARC? 1 7 A. International Association of 1 8 Research something. 1 9 Q You don't know? 2 0 A . Well, I k now they're a research 2 1 that does work in toxicology, but 22 I -- 2 3 Q Do you k n ow where they're 24 ed? 2 5 A . No, I don ' t . GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 24 5 WATER PCB-SD0000029680 1 Q. Do you know what, if any, toxic 2 pr operties they attribute to PCB's? 3 A. I may have seen it, but I don't 4 r e call at the present time. I'll be happy 5 t o -- if you show it to me. I'll be happy 6 t o give you my opinion on it. 7 Q. Other than appearing today and 8 g i ving your deposition in this matter, have 9 y o u had occasion to participate in this 1 0 1 i tigation at any prior stage? 11 A. No, sir. I think I told you one 1 2 0 r two years ago I had some meeting with 1 3 M r . Malin, but it certainly doesn't ring 14 m u c h o f a be 1 1 i n my mind. I did not 1 5 a n y d e p o s i t i o n , d id not do an y t e s t i f y 1 6 d i d not work w i th any of the 1 a w y e r s . 1 7 Q We r e y O u asked at a ny t i me t 1 8 f i n d experts w h o would give a n a f f i d a v 1 9 t h is matter? 2 0 A. No, sir, I was not. 2 1 Q. As part of your activities with 2 2 M o nsanto while you were with Monsanto and 23 up through 1974, did you maintain any 2 4 1 i sting of experts who c ould be called upon 2 5 t o testify on behalf o f Monsanto? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MIS S 0 U R I 24 6 WATER PCB-SD0000029681 1 A . No, I did not. 2 Q. Do you know if Monsanto has ever 3 given any research grants to any scientists 4 for independent study? 5 MR. MALIN: That question has 6 been asked and answered. You may answer it 7 again . 8 MR. COHEN: No, I asked him about 9 P C B , whether they funded any independent 1 0 work on P C B ' s 1 1 A . Th i s is a research grant to any 1 2 s c i e ntist for any purpose? 1 3 Q. Yes. 1 4 A. I don't know the details, but 1 5 they've given money to Harvard, they ' v e 1 6 given money to W a s h i ngton Univer sity, but I 1 7 don't know for what reason . 1 8 Q Well, you say you don't know the 1 9 details. who would know the details of what 2 0 research grants were given? 21 A. I wouldn't know. It was given 2 2 after I left the company. 2 3 Q , You' re u n a w are of any r e sea r c h 2 4 grants being g i v e n by M o n s a n t o d u r i n g Y our 2 5 tenure of employment? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 247 WATER PCB-SD0000029682 1 A. Oh, I'm sure they gave research 2 grants, but they didn't give them in the 3 toxicological aspect field. I would know 4 about that. But they might have given 5 research of -- plasticizer research and the 6 recovery of phosphate from ore. I mean, 7 God knows what they might have done. I'm 8 sure there are hundreds of those, or dozens 9 of them, anyway, but I don't know. 1 0 Q. My question is, who in Monsanto 1 1 would have the information about what 1 2 grants were given and when and to whom? 1 3 A. I wouldn't know at this time. I 1 4 left Monsanto 15 years ago, I haven't the 1 5 slightest idea who at the present time 1 6 would have this or who at the time when I 1 7 left would have had it, if they are still 1 8 alive. 1 9 (Discussion off the record). 2 0 Q. Without regard to the name of the 2 1 person who would have done it, can you 2 2 identify for me the position or department 2 3 within Monsanto that would have that within 2 4 its jurisdiction? 25 A. No. Because it could have been GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 248 WATER PCB-SD0000029683 1 from any of the indivi dual compa n i e s o r 2 divisions in the compa ny . 11 c o u 1 d h a v e 3 been by - - from the r e s e a r c h d e p a r t m e n t . 4 I don't k now. The ans w e r i s n o , I do n ' t 5 know. I wouldn't have a cl u e . 6 Q Tell me what you k n o w about the 7 Paoli Rai 1 yard? 8 MR . M AL I N : I o b j e c t t o the form 9 of that q uestion. Go ahead , D o c tor, tell 1 0 him what you know abou t the P a o 1 i Rai 1 1 1 Yard. 1 2 A . Paoli railro ad ? 1 3 Q . Rail Yard? 1 4 A . I remember s e e i n g t h e sign Paoli 15 going fro m Pennsylvani a to New Y o r k . I've 1 6 never bee n to the Rail Yard , I d o n ' t know 1 7 anything about it. 1 8 Q . In connectio n with g i v i ng y our 1 9 deposition here today, have y o u been given 2 0 any information about Paoli R a i 1 Yard ? 2 1 A . No . 2 2 Q Have you bee n given a n Y 2 3 information about litigation involving the 2 4 Paoli Rail Yard? 2 5 A. No, sir, I have not. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 249 WATER PCB-SD0000029684 1 Q. Do you know the nature of the 2 alleged exposure? 3 A. No, sir, I do not know what the 4 alleged exposure is. 5 Q. Do you have any information at 6 all about the alleged body burdens of PCB's 7 that any of the plaintiffs may have -- 8 A. No, sir, I have no information at 9 all. 1 0 Q. Do you know whether the claims 1 1 are as a result of occupational exposure or 1 2 otherwise? 1 3 A. I don't know that. 1 4 Q. Do you know what the alleged 1 5 ailments are that are claimed? 16 A. No, sir. All I know is there are 1 7 several hundred people. 1 8 Q. How do you know that? 19 A. I think somebody told me. I said 2 0 what's all this about, and they said we've 2 1 got a couple of hundred people that are 2 2 involved in a case. 2 3 Q. Have you been given any 2 4 information about how the alleged 2 5 contamination occurred in the Paoli Rail GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 250 WATER PCB-SD0000029685 1 Yard? 2 A. No, sir, I have not. 3 Q. Do you know what sort of work, if 4 any, was done with Monsanto products, if 5 any, at the Paoli Rail Yard? 6 A. They were supposed to be in 7 transformers that were on trains. 8 Q. And how do you know that? 9 A. Beg pardon? 1 0 Q. How do you know that? 1 1 A. Mr. Malin told me. 1 2 Q. Did you know that PCB's were 1 3 being used in transformers on trains? 1 4 A. Yes, I knew that. 1 5 Q. Was that one of the accepted uses 1 6 of PCB's? 17 A. Yes. They were used on 1 8 transformers where the possibility of a 1 9 conflagration due to a mineral oil 2 0 transformer would be disastrous. 21 Q. So, you know that they were being 2 2 used on transformers on trains? 2 3 A. I don't know of my ownknowledge, 2 4 I have not seen a report of transformer 2 5 fluid on -- that was used on a train, but GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 25 1 WATER PCB-SD0000029686 1 I've been told that PCB's were involved i n 2 transformers on trains to lessen the fire 3 hazard. 4 Q. When did use begin, to your 5 knowledge? 6 A. I don't remember. 7 Q. When did you get this 8 information? 9 A . Oh, s o m etime duri n g the ' 7 0 ' s . 1 0 Q Prior t o that tim e you w e r e not 1 1 aware of the fact that PCB " s were u s e d i n 1 2 transformers on trains? 13 A. I m ay have been. But I certainly 1 4 know that at the time when there was 1 5 disc u s s i o n about PCB' s , it was brought up 1 6 about the vital uses for fire resistant 1 7 fluid, namely, PCB's, and they quoted 1 8 things like the subway, subways in New 1 9 York, the White House, the transformers at 2 0 Busch Stadium, the transformers at 21 railroads. These were all cited in the 2 2 newspapers as well as various hearings as 2 3 to the importance of PCB's in transformers. 2 4 Q. You said at various hearings; you 2 5 mean before governmental bodies? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 25 2 WATER PCB-SD0000029687 1 A. I believe so. I'm' m not certain. 2 I ' d have to guess. 3 Q Did you ever offer testimony in 4 any h e a r i ng before any govern mental bodies? 5 A . No, I did not. 6 Q State or federal? 7 A . State or federal co ncerning 8 PCB's, I did not. 9 Q. So, as you sit here today, you 1 0 don't know anything about the use or 1 1 disposal of PCB's at the Paoli Rail Yard, 1 2 you don't know anything about the claims 1 3 attributable to the use of PCB's? 14 A. I have seen no claims. And when 1 5 you say about the use, obviously, if it's a 1 6 railroad yard, then they have transformers 1 7 and they're alleging contact with it, there 1 8 must have been some repair of transformers, 1 9 but I don't know any of the details at all. 2 0 Q. That's an assumption on your 2 1 part? 22 A. That's an assumption. I 2 3 shouldn't even make that. 2 4 Q. Would it be fair to say that we 2 5 have already discussed all of your GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 253 WATER PCB-SD0000029688 1 knowledge of the PCB's -- or, rather, the 2 Paoli Rail Yard, and in connection with 3 that Rail Yard, PCB's and any claims 4 arising out of it? 5 A. Say that over. 6 (The requested portion of the 7 record read by the reporter). 8 A . Yes, that's fair. 9 (Discussion off the record 10 MR . COHEN : Doctor, in con 1 1 with this litigation. we have been g 1 2 n u m b e r o f d o c u m e n t s r and I ' m going t o show 1 3 one t o y o u a t this t i m e , s t r i c 11 y f o r a 14 gen e r a 1 i n q u i r y . I ' d 1 i k e to ask y o u 15 certain questions about that document. For 1 6 identification, this appears to be a letter 1 7 written December 17, 1952. The author of 1 8 the letter is R. Emmet Kelly, M.D.. 19 MR. COX: Is there a Monsanto 2 0 identification number on that? 21 MR. COHEN: I'd rather have the 2 2 witness tell us that. 23 MR. COX: Since you're not 2 4 handing out copies -- 25 MR. COHEN: We'll get to that. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI ?S4 WATER PCB-SD0000029689 1 (Discussion off the record). 2 MR. COHEN: Sir, I'm not going to 3 a s k you i f you remember t h a t document . But 4 1 e t me a s k you this, doe s t h a t purport t o 5 b e a do c u m e n t that you w r o t e ? 6 A. Yes, sir, it does. 7 Q. That would be -- at least typed 8 in is your name in the signature block on 9 the document? 10 A. Yes. Plus the initials of my 1 1 secretary at that time. 1 2 Q . In 1 9 5 2 ? 1 3 A . Beg pardon? 1 4 Q Your secretary in 1 9 5 2 ? 15 A. M F L , Mary Frances Lyons. Yes 1 6 remember. 1 7 Q You see there are two numbers 1 8 stamped d own s ort of at the lower 1 9 right-han d cor ner in the do c u m e n t ? 2 0 A . Yes, I do. 2 1 Q They weren't part of the orig 2 2 document. were they? 23 A . No . 2 4 Q That 's PRR and th en a number? 2 5 A . Yes, sir. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 255 WATER PCB-SD0000029690 1 Q Do you know what that means? 2 A . I haven't the slightest idea. 3 Q How about the stamp SCM and the 4 number? 5 A. Still no idea. 6 Q. So, any document that I show you 7 that bears those numbers, you wouldn't be 8 able to tell me what those numbers mean? 9 A. That's correct. 10 MR. COX: I would like those 1 1 numbers read into the record, please. 1 2 MR. COHEN: When we get to you, 1 3 you can read them into the record. 14 MR. COX: I'd like to read them 1 5 into the record contemporaneously with the 1 6 discussion of the document, so the record 1 7 is clear. 18 MR. MALIN: I'll join in that 1 9 request. I think that's required by 2 0 protocol, to identify a document that a 2 1 witness has been asked to look at. 22 MR. COX: May I see the 2 3 document? 24 MR. COHEN: Sure. You want to 2 5 read it into the record? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 256 WATER PCB-SD0000029691 1 M R . COX: Has this document been 2 marked as an exhibit? 3 MR. COHEN: No. There is no 4 reason to. 5 MR. COX: I'd like the document 6 to be completely identified for the record. 7 MR. COHEN: You can identify it 8 any way you want. I have no use for the 9 document. I asked him whether he 1 0 recognized those numbers, and he said no. 1 1 MR. COX: The document is a 1 2 letter dated December 17, 1952, from R. 1 3 Emmet Kelly, M.D. to Mr. D . V , , it looks 1 4 like Palmer, American Mutual Liability 1 5 Insurance Company, and it has stamped 1 6 numbers on it PRR 044032 and SCM 029676. 1 7 MR. COHEN: Anyone else? Is 1 8 everyone ready? Mr. Reporter, would you be 1 9 kind enough to mark this? 2 0 (Kelly Deposition Exhibit Number 2 1 1 mark'd for identification). 2 2 MR. COHEN: Dr. Kelly, I'm going 2 3 to show you a document that's just been 2 4 marked as Kelly Exhibit Number 1 of today's 2 5 date. I want to ask you if you can GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 25 7 WATER PCB-SD0000029692 1 identify that document for us? For the 2 record, this has been stamped PRR 025475. 3 There is also another number that I don't 4 recognize, SCM 042280. 5 A . Yes, sir. 6 MR. MALIN: Do you have a 7 question? 8 MR. COHEN: Yes. 9 A. What was the question? 1 0 Q. Can you identify it for us? 1 1 A. Yes. This is a letter from me to 1 2 a Mr. Allen of Hexagon Laboratories, dated 1 3 February 17, 1962, with numbers listed as 1 4 Kelly Exhibit number 1, with two numbers, 1 5 PRR 025475, SCM 042280. 1 6 Q. Now, you would agree, would you 1 7 o t , that those two numbers , PRR and SCM, 1 8 r e not part of the original doc u m e n t 7 1 9 A. That is correct. 2 0 Q. Is there anything else on the 2 1 paper that you recognize today as you sit 22 here that's not part of the original 2 3 document? 2 4 A. You mean outside of the exhibit 2 5 stamp that he put on? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 258 WATER PCB-SD0000029693 1 Q That's right. Yes. 2 A. No. I think -- well, by the 3 original document, you mean this one? 4 Q Yes. 5 A . Because -- well, I w ant t o b e 6 sure we 1r e saying about the s a m e t h i n g . I 7 sent this letter to a Mr. A 1 1 e n , and there 8 is a note on this to the blind carbon 9 recipient s by me, which was not on the 1 0 letter th at went to Allen. 1 1 Q But the document as it e x i s t s , t o 1 2 the best of y o ur recollecti on, is a copy o f 1 3 a genuine d o c u ment that you pr epa red a t one 1 4 time? 1 5 A . Oh, yes 1 6 Q The letter that you sent to M r . 1 7 Allen at Hexagon Laboratories does no t 1 8 contain the ribbon copy blind message 7 1 9 A . That's correct. 2 0 Q And that message is the one a t 2 1 the top that reads, "BCC's"? 2 2 A. That's blind. 2 3 Q. "It might be very well for us to 2 4 look over this matter of warning 2 5 individuals about leaks in an Aroclor GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 259 WATER PCB-SD0000029694 1 system. We certainly aren't too emphatic 2 about it". 3 A . Yes, I wrote that in 1962. 4 Q . You might want to check that date 5 there. Is it '62, you believe? It's a 6 little obscure. 7 A. '62, '63, '61, I'm not sure. 8 Q. One of those years. Whatever the 9 date was that that originally appeared on 1 0 the letter, that was the date that you sent 1 1 the letter, and that's the date that you 1 2 put the blind message to the carbon copy 1 3 recipients? 1 4 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. What exactly were you talking 1 6 about when you said, "We certainly aren't 1 7 t o o e mm pphhaattiicc about it"? 1 8 AA . WW eell, I guess we didn't say, even 1 9 t h o u gh w e oo nnly had two episodes of injury 20 f r o m 1 e a k i nn gg -- was this hydraulics or -- 2 1 Q WWaant to take a look at it? Take 2 2 a look. I apologize for not having an 2 3 extra copy of it, we'll try to do better 2 4 tomorrow. 2 5 A. It must be heat transfer, because GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 26 0 WATER PCB-SD0000029695 1 it's at elevated temperatures. So, what I 2 was saying to the recipients of the carbon 3 copy, even though this is only the second 4 case we've had since 1940, that was twenty 5 plus years, we ought to look over our -- to 6 be sure that we emphasize, if you've got 7 leaks, fix them or get out of there. 8 Q. In other words, in the product 9 literature that you were making available 1 0 to the public, you weren't emphasizing the 1 1 leaks that shouldn't be allowed to exist? 1 2 MR. MALIN: I object to the form 1 3 of that question, that's a 1 4 mischaracterization of his testimony. 1 5 MR. COHEN: Well, do you agree 1 6 with my characterization? 1 7 A. No. Because in it I said in our 1 8 literature we said do not breathe the fumes 1 9 in confined spaces or at elevated 2 0 temperatures. That was repeatedly written 2 1 in all our product bulletins. But maybe we 2 2 should have said heat transfer units can 2 3 leak, but we hadn't put that in. 2 4 Q. Who is the recipient of this 2 5 blind p.s., blind message, whatever it is? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 26 1 WATER PCB-SD0000029696 1 A. I haven't the slightest idea. I 2 mean - 3 Q. Do you want to take a look at 4 that name? It looks like Mr. Richard 5 somebody . 6 A. Oh, it must have been the New 7 York office, somebody -- Richard somebody, 8 somebody I don't -- I can't make out the 9 St. Louis man. 1 0 Q. Doesn't ring a bell for you 1 1 today, anyway? 1 2 A. No, it doesn't. 1 3 Q. In the second paragraph you say, 1 4 "We do state that the vapors emitted by 1 5 Aroclor at elevated temperatures are 1 6 injurious upon prolonged exposure and 1 7 should not be breathed." What were you 1 8 referring to there? 1 9 A. The Treon work in 1954, where we 2 0 found out it was injurious to animals. 2 1 Q. That was the test that you talked 2 2 about earlier where you used fluid between 2 3 200 and 300 degrees and exposed it to hot 2 4 metals, 500 to 600 degrees? 2 5 A. Yes. I wasn't certain about the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 26 2 WATER PCB-SD0000029697 1 temperature ranges, I think I qualified 2 that. 3 Q. Right. Whatever your exact 4 testimony was with regard to that, that's 5 the testing that you were referring to? 6 A. I was referring to the work Treon 7 did at Kettering with dropping Aroclors on 8 metal at e 1 e v a ted t e m peratures, yes, sir. 9 Q Did t h i s s t udy ever get published 1 0 anywhere? 1 1 A . Yes. T r e o n ' s ? 1 2 Q Yes. 1 3 A . Yes, I ' m q u ite sure it did. 1 4 Q Do y o u know where, what journal? 1 5 A . I t h ink the American Industrial 1 6 Hygiene Quarte r 1 y 1 7 Q Was t h a t re search or study peer 1 8 reviewed? 1 9 A . Yes, s i r, i t's peer reviewed, 2 0 Q What d o you mean by peer 2 1 reviewed? 2 2 A . Well , Y o u s end it around to 2 3 experts i n the f i eld. you send it to 2 4 toxicolog i s t s who are knowledgeable in the 2 5 actions o f c h e lie a 1 s and in the actions of GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 263 WATER PCB-SD0000029698 1 inhalation studies -- I mean, in 2 parameters of inhalati o n studies. 3 Q . Who sends them? 4 A . The editor of the journa 1 to 5 which th e p a p e r has b een submitted 6 Q And do the peer reviewer s submit 7 comments ? 8 A . Yes, certai n 1 y . 9 Q . To w h o m ? 1 0 A . The editor. 1 1 Q The editor of the journa 1 ? 1 2 A . That 's corr e c t . 1 3 Q And does t h e researcher get to 1 4 see the c o m m e n t s ? 1 5 A . I c a n't a n s wer that. I don't 1 6 know. 1 7 Q Did you eve r get to see the 1 8 comments of t h e peer reviewers of any 1 9 article or s t u d y that was done at the 2 0 request of Mon santo? 2 1 A . Did I ever see the comme n t s of 2 2 the peer revie wers? I don't belie v e I did. 23 Q In y our exp erience, have you ever 2 4 been ask e d to act as a peer review e r ? 2 5 A . I do n't b e 1 ieve I have, in the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 26 WATER PCB-SD0000029699 1 formal sense that they submitted an entire 2 article to me. They may have -- the 3 editor -- I know the editor, I have a 4 vague recollection of the editor sending me 5 a conclusion or a couple of paragraphs of 6 the article and saying what do you think 7 a b o u t this, but that's -- that was really 8 for facts rather than for opinions as to 9 the gist of the paper. 1 0 Q. When you said vapors are 1 1 injurious, what exactly did you mean? 1 2 A. Beg pardon? 1 3 Q. When you said the vapors are 1 4 injurious in this letter, what exactly did 1 5 you mean? 1 6 A. Well, if you breathe enough of 1 7 them at an elevated temperature in 1 8 sufficient concentration, it will hurt you. 1 9 Q . I n what way? 2 0 A. You'll get irritation of the 2 1 lungs. 2 2 Q. What sort of irritation? Edema, 2 3 as we discussed before? 2 4 A. Well, that's the end result. 2 5 You'll start coughing, you'll get chemical GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 265 WATER PCB-SD0000029700 1 b r o n chi t i s , you'' 1 1 get chemical pneumoni a , 2 and you may end up with pulmonary edema, i f 3 you' r e fool enough to stay in there long 4 enough . 5 Q. Now, at the time you wrote this 6 letter in 1960, whatever it was, 1, 2 or 3, 7 you were notaware ofthe presence of 8 dibenzofurans in your PCB fluid? 9 A . That's correct. 1 0 Q. You were not aware of any 1 1 conversion that may have occurred in the 1 2 use of the fluids to increase the quantity 1 3 of dibenzofurans in the fluid? 1 4 A. That's correct. 1 5 Q. Have you ever asked Dr. Treon or 1 6 anyone to do any follow-up of his mid '50's 1 7 study to see if that exposure that you were 1 8 testing then, that is,taking PCB fluid and 1 9 subjecting it to high -- excuse me, to 2 0 metal surfaces heated to high temperatures 2 1 creates d i benzofurans? 2 2 A. In 1954, I know that there were 2 3 -- people were not able to look for i 2 4 dibenzofurans, and I do not believe that 2 5 the presence of dibenzofurans in PCB's was GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 766 WATER PCB-SD0000029701 1 ever brought up_ . The answer to your 2 question is no, I never did. 3 Q. We were talking about .1 954, and I 4 was moving ahead and said did you ever, 5 through 1974, and your answer is no, you 6 did not, through 1974? 7 A. No, I did not. 8 Q. Do you know if anyone has 9 subsequently followed up on that research 1 0 to see what, if any, effect there is on the 1 1 d in the creation o f dibenzofurans? 1 2 A . No, sir. 1 3 M S . SMITH: I ' d like to ask on 1 4 the record that tomorrow you get copies for 1 5 the witness and get copies for us, at the 1 6 table. 1 7 MR. COHEN: Well, counsel, we're 1 8 here in St. Louis, I don't have all my 1 9 facilities available to me, I'm not going 2 0 to make copies for everyone . You're 2 1 welcome to see the documents a s they're 22 produced to the witness . We'll make a n 23 e f fort to have additional copies for the 2 4 witness, but I'm not going to make copies 25 available to anybody else of all the | GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 267 WATER PCB-SD0000029702 1 exhibits I intend to introduce. 2 MS. SMITH : Thank you for your 3 cooperation. 4 MR . COHEN: It's not a lack of 5 cooperation. If we were in Philadelphia, 6 I'd be glad to accomodate you. 7 (Kelly Deposition Exhibit Number 8 2 mark'd for identification) . 9 MR. MALIN: Is the question does 1 0 the witness recognize this document? 11 MR. COHEN: Let me ask you, sir, 1 2 do you recognize the document that has been 1 3 marked as Exhibit 2? 1 4 A . Yes, Ido. 1 5 Q. Can you tell me what it is? 1 6 A . 11 is a letter from a Mr. Allen, 1 7 chief engineer of Hexagon Laboratories, to 1 8 e, dated February 16, 1961, marked Kelly 1 9 Exhibit Number 2 . Do you want all these 2 0 numbers on it. too? 2 1 Q Well, other than thos e numbers 2 2 down in the right-hand corner. such as we 2 3 discussed earlier, and the exhibit stamp, 2 4 which I guess we can agree are not part of 2 5 the original document, does the rest of the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 26 8 WATER PCB-SD0000029703 1 document, to the best of your recollection, 2 look like a true and correct copy of the 3 document that you received from Mr. Allen 4 back yea long ago? 5 A. There is something up at the top, 6 looks like a date, February 11th, Kelly, 7 K-e-1 -- I don't know what that means. 8 Q. That's also not partof the 9 original, as you understand it? 10 A. No. That's -- that's not part, 1 1 as far as I would be concerned, no. 1 2 Q. Okay. You see in the letter 1 3 here, sir, it refers to a recent telephone 1 4 conversation you and Mr. Allen apparently 1 5 had? 1 6 A. Yes. 1 7 Q. And do you see here where it 1 8 says, "For your information and records the 1 9 two men developed symptoms of hepatitis"? 2 0 A. Yes. 2 1 Q. It says, "as you predicted"? 2 2 A. Yes. 23 Q. Can you tell me, do you have a 2 4 recollection of having predicted that these 25 individuals would develop the symptoms of GORE REPORTING COMPANY, ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 26 9 WATER PCB-SD0000029704 1 hepatitis? 2 A. Yes, I do, very much, because 3 this is relatively unique. This was 4 twenty-two years since the last one, 5 whenever it was. Somebody called me up 6 from Hexagon, I didn't know the name of the 7 company. That's been in lots of 8 depositions. I said on at least two cases, 9 a couple in Indiana, a jerryrigged deal. 1 0 and someplace -- I thought it was i n New 1 1 York , h e called m e up an d he said w e ' v e had 1 2 men that -- two or thre e men, I d o n ' t know 1 3 how many. that ha v e been working a rou n d an 1 4 Aroc lor h eat tran sfer a g ent system t h at 1 s 1 5 leak e d , a n d they' re n a u s eated, and t h ey 16 feel sick . I s a i d well, obviously , Y ou've 1 7 take n the m out of there. so watch out for 1 8 j a u n dice, because that i s what can o c cur if 19 you get a n acute overdos e of PCB . So -- 2 0 and I don ' t know when he wrote the 1 e tter . 21 It's one of those e x h i b i t s . I don ' t know 2 2 what that date w a s . But then he w rot e this 2 3 1 e t t e r an d said y e s , you were right. thanks 24 for t e 1 1 i n g me to watch out for th i s . And 2 5 d i d n ' t he say the fellow s are okay now? Or GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 270 WATER PCB-SD0000029705 1 what did he say? May I see the 2 Q. Sure. 3 A. They were hospitalized for two 4 weeks . 5 Q. What caused you to suspect that 6 they would develop hepatitis-like symptoms 7 such as jaundice? 8 A. Because, previously, there was 9 another case in Indiana where people used a 1 0 jerryrigged heat transfer apparatus and 1 1 those people developed hepatitis and 1 2 jaundice. And in Treon's work, I believe 1 3 the liver was the target organ, also, in 1 4 the acute studies that he did. 1 5 Q You didn't tell me about t h 1 6 before. Before, you told me about t h 1 7 respiratory, with Dr. Treon. 1 8 A. Tell you what? 1 9 Q. About liver problems. You told 2 0 me about -- 2 1 A. I did not tell you? 2 2 Q. You told me about respiratory 2 3 problems . 2 4 A. Well, my impression is that 2 5 before Treon started on any prolonged GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000029706 1 toxicolog ical experiment, he has to find 2 out what sort of level this anim a 1 can 3 take, bee ause you don't want an animal that 4 you're t r ying to do studies on d ie in the 5 middle of the experiment. So, i t is my 6 recol lect ion that he did get -- on his 7 exposures , when they were high e xposures, 8 he did g e t acute toxic hepatitis from 9 exposure to Aroclor. 1 0 Q . So, it was based upon your -- 1 1 the resul ts of the experiments w i th Dr. 1 2 Treon and a prior contact that y 0 u had 1 3 about thi s leaking, as you call 1 t , 1 4 jerryrigg ed heat transfer mechan ism that 1 5 you predi cted to Mr. Allen that these 1 6 individua Is may develop symptoms similar to 1 7 hepatitis ? 1 8 A . That's correct. 1 9 Q And you advised him, a nd he wrote 2 0 and thank ed you for that advice? 2 1 A . Well, gave me some adv ice of his 2 2 own, too. 2 3 Q That is, that you prov i d e more 2 4 informati on regarding safety of handling? 2 5 A . That is correct. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 272 WATER PCB-SD0000029707 1 Q . To your knowledge, did Monsanto 2 make changes in its product information 3 literature to reflect that information? 4 A. I think the answer is no. We had 5 adequate information there. We told them 6 not to use the material, breathe the fumes 7 at elevated temperatures. I don't think we 8 said don't boil this in open pots, don't 9 use heat transfer agent apparatus that 1 0 leaks. We do not say that. We just said 1 1 don't breathe the material at elevated 1 2 temperatures. 1 3 Q. And I believe you also said 1 4 earlier that these two letters have come up 1 5 in various matters in which you've been 1 6 called upon to testify? 1 7 A. I never recall seeing the 1 8 letters. I brought up the point that 1 9 somebody in New York called me, and I 2 0 didn't know it was Hexagon, I had forgotten 2 1 that. I don't think I recall seeing the 2 2 letter. 23 Q. But you have discussed this in 2 4 other depositions? 25 A. Yes, I have. I've said there GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 273 WATER PCB-SD0000029708 1 have been two cases that I know of where 2 there have been acute toxic exposures to 3 leaks at elevated temperatures, two in 38 4 years I was with Monsanto. 5 (Kelly Deposition Exhibit Number 6 3 mark'd for identification). 7 A . Yes, si r, I've read it. 8 Q Do you recogniz e Kelly 3 ? 9 A . Yes, I d o . 1 0 Q Can you tell m e what it is? 1 1 A . Kelly 3 is a memorandum fro 1 2 R i chard Davi s , who I remember a s 1 3 in the marketing department of PCB's, in 1 4 which I refer to the episode at Hexagon 1 5 Laboratories, dated February 2, 1961, with 1 6 notes PRR 025477, SCM 042282. 1 7 Q. And those aren't part of the 1 8 original document, those two numbers? 1 9 A. No. Neither is the scribbling up 2 0 on the upper right corner. I cannot make 2 1 it out. 2 2 Q. Do you have a clue as to who put 2 3 that scribble on the document? 2 4 A. I haven't the slightest idea. 2 5 Q. Do you recall preparing this GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 274 WATER PCB-SD0000029709 1 memo? 2 A . Now that I s e e it. Ido. I 3 h a d n ' t recalled it up to then 4 Q Now, looking at the document. 5 sir, there is a reference to one individual 6 -- in the first full paragraph, one 7 individual was under the care of a 8 physician and the physician suspected liver 9 damage, although no jaundice could be 1 0 seen. Do you see that? Do you see that 1 1 sentence? 1 2 A . Yes. 1 3 Q. Then you have in parenthesis, 1 4 "patient a negro." Is there any 1 5 significance to the fact that the patient 1 6 was a negro? 1 7 A. Well, if you're looking for 1 8 yellow skin, if you have black skin, it 1 9 might be a little harder to see yellow. 2 0 Q. So, the significance was that the 2 1 jaundice would be harder to detect in a 2 2 dark skinned individual? 2 3 A. Although, if the physician were 2 4 smart enough, as I gather he was, because 2 5 he suspected liver damage, he would have GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 27 5 WATER PCB-SD0000029710 1 seen it in the whites of the eyes. Unless 2 that negro had bloodshot eyes, you could 3 see it there j ust as easily as in a 4 caucasion. 5 Q . T h e r e was no other reason to put 6 that in, such as to suggest that a negro 7 might be more susceptible to liver damage 8 than a caucasi on? 9 A . No. 1 0 MR. COHEN: Why don't we break 1 1 off at this point. 1 2 Deposition Recessed) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 276 WATER PCB-SD0000029711 / DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET In Re: ' Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be made: Page H i Line 11 Should read: Reason assigned for change: <luS> u, CLU^~ /nn1 Page $[) Line / V- Should read: Reason assigned for change: fyO.x+JLp t'VO-aL>^ O-t 1CP ^ Page '0 / Line Should read: Reason assigned for change: Page V' ^Line /L Should read: Reason assigned for change: Page p Line $7 Should read: Reason assigned for change: Mhiyt 1 tycLp IaT-O^o ^ JflUA~' ^ Page 7 Line 7 Should read: Reason assigned for change: {po' 11 Page f l jine / J Should read: Reason assigned for change: \Pl4~UL Page / *JL<yLine ^ Should read: Reason assigned for change: Page Aj^Line / 2- Should read: CMnJijL Reason assigned for change: " d Deponent WATER PCB-SD0000029712 DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET In Re: Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be made: Page ' /3 2 Line ^ Should read: Reason assigned for change: Page / 3 ^ Line / s' Should read: oJJoh^U U* ^ Reason assigned for change: Page j cj-y^ine ^ Should read: Reason assigned for change: Page / ^ -^Line // Should read: 'tL ' ` (j 0 ^ LiAM ^ 3 J Reason assigned for change: Page jfr^Line V Should read: Reason assigned for change: Page //&Line Should read: Reason assigned for change: jTM** Page Line Should read: Reason assigned for change: Page j^J^Line lO Should read: Reason assigned for change: % Page ay Line / 2~ Should read: Reason assigned for change: <u^Jy A Deponent WATER PCB-SD0000029713 DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET In Res Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be made: Page / Line Should read: c*~/ -tnc- Reason assigned for change: ^ Page 3 / ^Line /3 Should read: r/ (j^ ' ^ Reason assigned for change: Page 3Li'}hi.ne JL Should read: Reason assigned for change: f T~<y. - r Page ^Line / L Should read: Reason assigned for change: i yf4^u. ^Uou^fth " Page 3 ^'%ine Should read: Reason assigned for change: syi(U*L<x%. Page 39 pLine p. / Should read: d-J^d Reason assigned for change: ^ --r'U'd--lU<r^ Page Line Should read: Reason assigned for change: olJ- W-or_VXo" o-vhQ- Qu^ i^oj" Page't// Line [ Should read: Reason assigned for change: Page ^/d^Line3- Should read: Reason assigned for change: 3-3u j2mmA &-/ iA,*-o^ iwwy ^i-9u tj9<oQ> Deponent WATER PCB-SD0000029714