Document wgZMGa18DVbJaMggwdMyabeDJ

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF NEVADA NEVADA POWER COMPANY, _vs_ Plaintiff ) # CV-89-555-LDG (LRL) MONSANTO COMPANY, GENERAL ELECTRIC CORPORATION, et al., ) ) ) ) Defendants. ) DEPOSITION OF JACK T. GARRETT On the part of the Plaintiff March 16, 1993 Concannon u & Jaeger General Court Reporters 705 Olive Street, Suite 604 St. Louis, Missouri 63101 (314) 421-1000 WATER PCB-SD0000027708 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION' 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF NEVADA 2 3 NEVADA POV7ER COMPANY, ) 5 45 Plaintiff, ) 5 -va- ) f CV-89-555-LDG (LRU 6 MONSANTO COMPANYf GENERAL ) ) ) 7 ELECTRIC CORPORATION,, et al., ) i 8 Defendants. ) o. 10 * * * 11 INDEX 12 WITNESS: Pages 13 JACK T. GARRETT 14 Direct Examination by Mr. Bradley . . ......................... 4 1 = Cross Examination by Nr Peatheratone .......................... 95 1C EXHIBITS 17 Deposition Exhibit I 14 27 .................................................................. 45 18 Deposition Exhibit ^ 438< * 40 19 Deposition Exhibit 428. . *........................................................ 59 20 Deposition Exhibit # 1473..........................*........................................ 89 21 22 23 24 25 -2 - CONCANHON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027709 COMPUTET? AIDED TRANSCR I PTI CF; 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF NEVADA 2 3 NEVADA POWER COMPANY, ) ) 4 Plaintiff, ) 5 "V8" ) ) # CV-89-555-LDG (LRL) 6 MONSANTO COMPANY, GENERAL 7 ELECTRIC CORPORATION, It al,, ) ) ) ) Defendants. ) 9 9 DISCOVERY DEPOSITION OP WITNESS, to be used in an 10 action pending in the District Cour t of the united States, 11 fee the District of Nevada, wherein NEVADA. POWER COMPANY U 12 Plaintiff, and MONSANTO COMPANY, et al. are Defendants, 13 pursuant to Notice, under the provisions of Rule 26 of the 14 Rules of Civil Procedure, taken on March 16, 1993, at thc- 15 1 aw offices of Messrs. Busch & Eppenberget, 100 North 16 Broadway, St, Louis, Missouri, before John T, Concannon, a 17 Notary Public within and for the State of Missouri. 13 APPEARANCES 19 The Plaintiff was represented by Hr, Ralph A. Bradley, of the 1 aw firm of Bradley & Merrell, c/o Jones, 20 Jones, Close & Drown, 300 South Pourth^Street, Ste. 7CC, Las Vegas, Nevada, 89101. #* d. 1*3 The Defendant, Monsanto Company, was represented by 22 Nr. Bruce A, Peatherstone, of the law firm of Kirkland & Ellis, 1999 Broadway, Ste. 4000 , Denver Colorado, 80202. 23 The Defendant, Westinghouse Corporation, was 2 4 represented by Ms. Laurie Basch, of the lav/ firm of Wei i, Cotchai 6 Manges, 767 Fifth Avenue, New York, New York, 4. e J 10153. -3- CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027710 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 JACK T. GARRETT, n of lawful age, being first duly sworn to tel1 the truth, 3 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, deposes and 4 says on behalf of the Plaintiff, as follows j 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION 6 QUESTIONS BY MR. BRADLEYi ? Q. Would you please state your name and spell 8 your last name for the court reporter? 9 A. Jack T. Garrett, G-a-r-r-e-t-t, and Jack is 10 the name, not John. 11 Q. All right. Mr. Garrett, my name is Ralph 12 Bradley and we introduced ourselves just a moment ago; is 13 that true? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. I represent NevadaPower Company in this 16 lawsuit that they've brought against Monsanto, General 17 Electric and Nestinghouse j youunderstand that? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. If, duringthe course ofyour deposition, I 20 ask a question that you don't understandt will you tell me? 21 A. I shall. 22 Q, And if you give ananswer to one of my 23 questions, I'm going to assume you understood the question. 24 Fair enough? 25 A. Okay. Good enough. -4CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SDOOO002771 1 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 Q Also, if, since we're starting in the late 2 afternoon and apparently going to go into the early 3 evening, if you ever need to take a break, just let us know 4 and we'll accommodate you. 5 A. Thank you. 6 Q. Are you represented by an attorney today? 7 A. No. Not myself, personally. 8 C. When did you first learn that your deposition S would be taken today? 10 A. Approximately three weeks ago. 11 C. How did you learn that? 12 A. Monsanto called. 13 Q Who did you speak with from Monsanto? 14 A. To be perfectly frank, I don't remember. I 15 think it was one of the girls, but I'm not sure of that. 16 Q. Did you know you were listed as a potential 17 witness in this case? 18 MR. PEATHERSTONE ? Object to the form. 19 A. No. 20 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) Do you ^know whether you were 21 listed as a potential witness in this case? 22 A. Now? I don't know what I'm doing here if I'm 23 not, but now, I don't know. 24 Q. All right, May I-- 25 A. Excuse me a moment. If you mean do I know if -5 CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027712 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 I'm a witness for a court trial at some point, no, I do not 2 know. 3 Q. All right. That was my question. 4 A. Okay, 5 Q. Could I have your home address? 6 A. 429 Geyer, G-e-y-e-r, Forest Drive, Kirkwood, Missouri, 63122. 8 Q. Do you have a business address? 9 A. The same, if I'm in business. 10 Q. Did you review any documents in preparation 11 for today's deposition? 1X -^rt A. Mo. As a matter of fact, I didn't review any 13 documents at all* I talked but I didn't review any 14 documents . 15 0. Who did you talk to? 16 A. An attorney from Monsanto. 17 Q. And was it Mr. Feathers tone that you spoke to? 1G A. Mo Mr. Feathe rstone'o associate at Monsanto. 19 Q. And what were you told? 20 MR. FEATHERSTONEi You're, instructed not to 21 answer that question. 22 MR. BRADLEYJ On what grounds? 23 MR. FEATI1ERSTONE j Attorney/client privilege. 24 MR. BRADLEY j But he said you're not his 25 1awyer. -6CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027713 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 MR. FEATBERSTONE: Well -- 2 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) Wae it someone with Mr. 3 Featherstone's office that you spoke to about this? 4 A. It was somebody from the law department at 5 Monsanto. Whose office he was in, I haven't the foggiest. 6 Q. Okay. And what did they tell you? 7 MR. FEATHERSTONEi Well, same instruction. 8 MR. BRADLEY: How can you instruct him not to 9 answer when he's not your client? 10 MR. FEATHERSTONE Because that's, A, not 11 true, and B, the fact of the matter is, Monsanto and it's 12 counsel have a privilege that exists with regard to former 13 employees for matters concerning the scope of their 14 employment while at Monsanto. That's well-developed by the 15 case law. 16 MR. BRADLEYi My question is, how can you 17 instruct him not to answer when he's not your client? 18 MR. FEATHERSTONE: I told you the basis for my 19 instruction, Mr. Bradley. If you view the law different 20 than I do, you do. I can't do anything about that. 21 MR. BRADLEY: I will instruct you to answer. 22 Since Mr. Featherstone is not your attorney, he can't 23 instruct you not to answer. 24 THE WITNESS t He can instruct me not to 25 answer, can he not? -7CONCANNON & JAEGER WAfER- PCB-SD0000027714 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 MR. BRADLEYj He can, but unless he's your 2 lawyer -- The rule is, Mr. Garrett, that if your lawyer 3 instructs you not to answer, you shouldn't answer. If 4 you're not here represented by a lawyer, then there's no 5 lawyer who can instruct you not to testify. So go ahead. 6 MR. PEATHERSTONE: I have instructed Mr. 7 Garrett. 8 MR. BRADLEY: Well, why don't -- 9 THE WITNESS: What is -- 10 HR. BRADLEY: Just a moment. I view this as 11 an important matter and why don't we take it up with 12 Magistrate Levitt? 13 HR. PEATHERSTONEI Are we off the record? 14 MR. BRADLEY: Yes. 15 (Whereupon, a discussion was held between Counsel, off the 16 record.) 17 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) Mr. Garrett, as I understand 1C it, you've now spoken with Mr. Peatherstone outside the 19 presence of everyone in this room and you're now relating 20 to me that you are here, represented b,y Mr. Peatherstone; 21 is that correct? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. Have you paid Mr. Peatherstone any money to 24 represent you here, today? 25 A. No. -8CONCANHON , JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027715 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 Q. Have you signed a contract to have him 2 represent you here, today? 3 A. No. 4 Q. When you walked in the door to have your 5 deposition taken, was Mr. Featherstone your attorney? 6 A. According to what he just told me, yes. 7 0. He told you he's your lawyer? e A. He told me that the policy is that 9 ex-employees are represented by Monsanto1s attorney and he 10 at perison at th i 0 hearing, n Q. Okay 0 So you didn't ask him to be your 12 r, he `told you he was your lawyer? 13 A. That 1 s tr ue. And I accepted that help. 14 Q. Are you P resently employed? 15 A. NO. 16 Q. You 1 re re tired? 17 A. I ant re ti red from Monsanto. 18 Q All right . Let's start with your educational 19 round. Did you a ttend col.lege? 20 A. Yes. `f ,, 21 Q. Where did you attend college? 22 A. Oklahoma State University, and the University 2 3 of Tennessee, Knoxville. 24 Q. Did you receive a degree? 25 A. Two degrees. -9- CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027716 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 Q. When did you receive your first degree? 2 A. In 1948 , from the University of - from 3 Oklahoma state University. I received a Bachelor of 4 Science in Chemistry. 5 Q. When did you receive your second degree? 6 A. 1950, I received a Master of Science in 7 Chemistry from the University of Tennessee at Knoxville. G Q. Have you attended any course workfollowing 9 completion of your Masters of Science in 1950? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Tellme which -- 12 A. It would be difficult todefine them all. 13 Q. Roughly, how many courses have you taken since 14 1950? 15 THE WITNESS i Defi ne "courses. IS 0. (By Me. Bradley) Have you taken any courses 17 through any accredited universi ty since 1950? 18 THE WITNESS J For credit? 19 MR. BRADLEY t Fine . For credit. 20 For credit, no. f^ 1 21 (By Mr. Bradley) Did you take any courses at 22 any accredited university past 1950 where you did not 23 receive credits? 24 A. Yes. 25 C. Roughly, how many courses were there? - 10 - CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027717 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 A. It would be difficult but I would say at 2 universities, somewhere around ten. 3 0. What were the subject matter of the courses 4 that you took? 5 A. Physical chemistry, industrial hygiene, water 6 pollution control, and toxicology. 7 HR. BRADLEYs Would you read back that answer 8 for me, please? 9 {Whereupon, the reporter propounded the previous question.} 10 Q, (By Mr. Bradley) Where did you take the 11 course work on toxicology? 12 A. At a meeting of the Toxicological Society 13 seven years ago at the University of North Carolina at 14 Chapel Hill. 15 Q. Were-16 A. Excuse me a moment. Many of these courses are 17 not subscribed by the university. They are simply used as 18 a -- They're part of meetings and so forth, okay? 19 Q. Was the meeting at the University of North 20 Carolina the only instruction that you, have had in 21 toxicology following completion of your Masters? 22 A. No. 23 Q. How long was the meeting in North Carolina on 24 toxicology? 25 A. Three days. - 11 CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027718 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 Q. And what year did the meeting occur? 2 A. Somewhere in the late ' 50s. I can't tell you 3 any better than that. 4 Q Were the instructors part of the staff at the 5 University of North Carolina? 6 A o Ho. Q. Who were the instructors? 8 A. They were members of the Toxicological 9 Society. 10 Q. Were you given written materials in relation 11 to that training? A. Ye3. 13 0. Do you still have them? 14 A. Mo. 15 0. What other training have you had in toxicology 16 since completion of your Master of Science in 1950? 17 A. Hands-on training with Monsanto and its 18 various functions and its various staff members, 19 Q. Did the hands-on training instruction occur at 20 a special set of meetings? /,, * 21 A. No. It occurred at a toxicological 2 2 1aboratory. 23 0. Over what period of time? 24 A. Probably from 1955 to 1965. 25 0. And roughly, how many hours would you say that - 12 - CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027719 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 you received instruction with Monsanto in its various 2 functions with staff members? 3 MR. PBATHERSTONEi Object to the form. 4 THE WITNESS: How many hours? 5 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) How many hours did you 6 receive this training between 1955 and 1965? 7 A. Oh, I don't know. Many, many hours. 8 Q. More than a hundred? 9 A. Most likely, yes. I didn't add them up. 10 0. Anyother training that you received in 11 toxicology since completion of your Masters? 12 A. Other than my knowledge and discussions with 13 the people involved in the manufacture, use, pollution 14 treatment and so forth, of materials Monsanto was 15 interested in, in producing or using as raw materials in 16 any of their processes. 17 Q. And who would those folks be? 18 A. Oh, my previous boss, Mr. Elmer Wheeler, now 19 deceased. 20 Q. Anyone else? ^- 21 A. Dr. R.E, Kelly, my boss for many years. 22 0. Anyone else? 23 A. And perhaps the Toxicology and Industrial 24 Hygiene meetings of the American Petroleum Institute, 25 Manufacturing Chemists Association, and Organic Chemical - 13 - CONCAHNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027720 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 Manufacturers Association meetings, as well as meetings 2 with customers and so forth. 3 Q. In the meetings that you had with the American 4 Petroleum institute, did you discuss toxicology of PCBs? 5 A. I really can't -- It's likely, but I can't 6 say, 7 Q. In the discussions with the American Petroleum a Institute, did you address the topic of Dioxin? 9 A. I'll have to give you the same answer. It's 10 likely but I can't recall specifics. n Q. Furans? 12 A. Probably. 13 Q. In your meetings with the American Petroleum 14 Institute, did you discuss polychlorinated dibenzylfurans? 15 A. Likely. 1C 0. Tell me now, what training you had beyond 1950 17 in industrial hygiene. 18 A. I went to a two-week long introduction course 19 conducted by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company in Boston. 20 Q. When was that? /, 21 A. It had to be 1954. 22 Q. Why did you attend thatintroductorycourse? 23 A. Primarily, because myboss told me to, but for 24 purposes of establishing the premise of industrial hygiene, 2 5 which I did not know since I was a research chemist prior - 14 CONCANMON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027721 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPT!ON 1 to that. 2 Q. What is industrial hygiene? 3 A. It's a study of industrial operations with the 4 objective of preventing sickness and death among the 5 workers that handle the materials involved. 6 C. Did you receive written material as part of 7 this two-week course? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Do youstill have it? 10 A. NO. 11 0. What did you do with it? 12 A. When I cleaned out my office and left 13 Monsanto, it either left then or -- I don't know. I don't 14 know. It disappeared. 15 C. Did you have any other training in industrial 16 hygiene following completion of your Master's Degree? 17 A. No. Other than the fact that I studied and 18 passed the exam for certification by the American 19 Industrial Hygiene Association, a two-day examination. 20 Q. Whattraining did you hauf beyond your 21 Waster's degree in water pollution control? 22 A. My Master's degree was not in water pollution 23 control. It was inorganic physical chemistry, 24 Q. Following completion of your Master's degree, 25 what training, if any, did you receive in water pollution - 15 CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027722 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 control? 2 A. Training with some of the best minds, I 3 believe* at the time * in pollution control. 4 Q. In where? 5 A. In pol1ution control. Some of the best minds. 6 And practical experience with pollution problems at the Texas City* Texas plant. 8 Q. Who were the people that you were working with D regarding water pollution control? 10 A. My same boss and subboss, Dr. Kelly was my 11 boss for many years, Mr. Wheeler was my boss also for many 12 years. I was moved to St. Louis for the purpose of, for 13 water pol1ution reasons, because I had done seme work on 14 the problem at Texas City. 15 Q. And Texas - what? 16 A. Texas City plant. 17 Q. And what training did you receive following 18 completion of your Master's degree relating to the subject 19 of physical chemistry? 20 A. Other than meeting, regular -meetings with the 21 American Chemical Society at their South Texas group, 22 probably none. 23 Q. Have you had your deposition taken before? 2 4 A. Yes. 4o* r. C. When? - 16 COWCANHON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027723 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 A. Oh, my stars, I don't know when. 2 THE WITNESS t How many or when? 3 MR. BRADLEYS Well, I'm going to ask both. So 4 however you want to answer it. 5 A e The last one was about two months ago. I had 6 about fifteen. 7 C. Where did the last deposition occur? 8 A. St. Louis. 9 Q. In what kind of case? 10 A. You know, after all the times I have been 11 involved in this mess, I can't even remember what was the 12 case. 13 Q. Did it involve PCBe? 14 A. Not specifically. 15 Q. Do you recall what the general nature of your 35 testimony was during that deposition? 17 A. I can't even recall the subject. I'm sorry. 13 Really sounds stupid but it's true. I don't recall the 19 subject now. I could probably refresh my memory if I got 20 to my office. ^< 21 o. In the -- 22 A. It had nothing to do with PCBs, by the way. 23 Q. You estimated maybe fifteen times you have had 24 your deposition taken? 25 A. Yes. - 17 - CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027724 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 Q. Were -- Did any of those occasions involve 2 PCEs? 3 A. Specifically as a major subject, no. As an 4 ancillary subject of chemicals that we handled and for 5 reasons of that, yes, 6 Q. Do you recall the case names of any of those 7 cases where you gave depositions that touched on PDEs? 8 A. NO. 9 Q. Do you recall ifone of them had todo with a 10 case in San Francisco? 11 A. I really don't know. I have had depositions 12 dealing with product handling in very many number of cases. 13 I don't recall specifically a San Francisco case. 14 Q. Do you recall whether you kept copies of any 15 of the transcripts of the depositions in which you gave 16 testimony? 17 A. Absolutely not. 18 C. Do you know whether Monsanto has copies of 19 those? 20 A. You would haveto ask them.< 21 Q. Well, after -- Did you have yourdeposition 22 taken at any point when you were still a Monsanto employee? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And do you know whether Monsanto kept a file 25 that included a transcript of your deposition? - 18 CONCANNOU & JAEGER .i WATER PCB-SD0000027725 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 A. I haven' t the vaguest notion, actual ly. I 2 think if the case was completed, because of the massive 3 amounts of documentation, it probably would have been 4 disposed of, based on their document retention program. 5 0. What is their document retention program? 6 A. It's nothing more than a program to keep from 7 filling the entire country with files. Anything that's 8 important enough can be, I presume can be put on discs and 9 cc forth. Right now, I don't know where any of them are, 10 nor have any idea if they're stored or what. 11 Q. During the time that you were employed at 12 Monsanto, was there more than one retention policy? 13 A. As a chemist and later, as a manager of a 14 small section in the research department at Texas City, it 15 made little difference to me what happened to the 16 documents. We could fetch them back if they were fresh. 17 If they were not, they probably went to St. Louis, but I do 16 not know. 19 Q. My question was whether or not you know if 20 there was more than one retention policy for documents 21 during the course of time you were employed with Monsanto. 22 A. The only policy I knew was the one in St. 23 Louis. As near as I know, if there was one in Texas City, 24 I never got a jump on it. We had one policy. That policy 25 went through from virtually the time I came to St. Louis, - 19 CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027726 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 or a form of it, all the way to the time I retired. 2 Q. Did the policy allow the destruction of 3 certain types of documents if several years had - 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. - passed? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And was there discretion given to employees as 8 to whether to maintain documents beyond that several year 3 period? 10 A. Very little discretion. 11 0. So for the most part, you were supposed to 12 discard documents that were over two years old? 13 MR. PEATHERSTONEs Are you using two years as 14 an example? 15 MR. BRADLEYi I'm asking whether it was two 16 years. 17 A. I believe it was five. I believe. 10 MR. BRADLEYt All right. 19 0. (By Mr. Bradley) More than five and less than 20 ten? 21 A. I don't know. We had to look at them on that 22 basis, on a five-year basis. Every document we kept, we 23 had to make a special provision for. 24 MR. BRADLEYi Would you read that answer back 25 to me, please? - 20 - CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027727 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 (Whereupon, the reporter propounded the previous answer.) 2 A. For retention, okay? 3 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) Was the retention policy 4 written? 5 A. Yes. So-called RedBook. 6 Q. Pardon me? 7 A. A so-called Red Book. 8 0. During the time you were employed at Monsanto, 9 do you know whether any documents were destroyed outside 10 the retention policy? 11 A. No, they were not. 12 0. At least, if they were, you don't know that? 13 A. Not in my section, they weren't. 14 Q. Have you ever given testimony in a trial? 15 A. Yes. 15 0. Which trials? 17 A. As a consultant in the trials connected with 1G the St. Louis School Board's asbestos program. 19 Q. Any other trials? 20 A. No. /.' 21 Q. What did you do when you graduated with a 22 Master's degree? 23 A. Picked up my wife and ray two tattered kids and 24 moved from Knoxville to Texas City, Texas on the basis of 25 money given me by the Government, returning portion of my - 21 - CONCAHNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027728 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 Government insurance, or I never would have been able to. 2 Q. What did you do in Texas City, Texas? 3 A. I was in the research department of the Texas 4 division of Monsanto. 5 Q. What was your job title when you began that 6 employment? 7 A. Research chemist. 8 Q. What work did you do as a research chemist at 9 the Texas division of Monsanto? 10 A. virtually all organic -- I am an inorganic 11 physical chemist and did virtually all organic, but that's 12 beside the point. I did work on the process for several 13 organic chemicals and worked on processing each improvement U to make them more efficient. 15 Q. What product were you working for at Texas 10 City? 17 A. Styrene, eythel benzene, acrylonitrile, 10 a-c-r-y-l-o-n-i-t-r-i-l-e, and it's precursor, hydrogen 19 cyanide. 20 Q. Who was your immediate su^er-visor? 21 A. There were a number of them, and I can't -- 22 To tell you the truth, I can't recall the name of him. My 23 boss was the director of research, and it was a small 24 department and people were -- It was almost a 25 boss/individual relationship. - 22 CONCANMON 6 JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027729 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION! 1 Q. How long were you a research chemist at the 2 Texas division of Monsanto? 3 A. From 1950 to 1954. 4 Q. During that period of time, did you work at 5 all with Monsanto products that contained PCBs? 6 A. I don't think so. It wasn't an issue of great 7 knowledge, if that's what you mean, no. As a heat transfer 8 medium, it might have been, I don't know. But directly, 9 no. Not to my knowledge, in my processes or any of my 10 process operations, no. 11 0. In 1954, what did you do? 12 A. I got taken to St. Louis by Dr. Kelly. 13 Q. How dad that occur? 14 A. I goofed off and gave a paper on pollution 15 control in New York at an MCA meeting, that's Manufacturing 1C Chemists Association, now known as the Chemical 17 Manufacturers Association. 18 Q. I take it, he liked your paper and contacted 19 you? 20 A. Not necessarily. I think, what he did, he was 21 told to begin to supervise information as a center soutce 22 for information on pollution control for the whole company 23 and he went out looking for a man with some pollution 24 control experience. 25 Q. What was your job title when you first began - 23 CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027730 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 working in St. Louis? 2 A. industrial hygienist and water pollution 3 advisor. 4 Q. Was there a time when your job title changed? 5 A. Yes Many times 6 0. Okay. What work did you do as an industrial hygienist and water pollution advisor when you first 8 started with Monsanto in St. Louis? 9 A. I represented the company on the pollution 1C committees of the Ohio River Valley Sanitation Commission, 11 known as ORSANCO; on the water pollution committee of the 12 Manufacturing Chemists Association, now the CMA; the water 13 pollution committee of the American Petroleum Institute, 14 Production Division, and when I found time, a little work 15 for the company, 16 Q. when you worked for the company, what did you 17 do? 18 A. Started beating people about pollution 19 control. I went from plant to plant to plant. We did 20 surveys with the plant people in connection with what they 21 were discharging and where. We did the entire corporation and started working on getting rid - going to work building 23 either pollution treatment plants or managing pollutants 24 through the cities' or communities' treatment facilities. 25 Q. At that time, how many plants were you working - 24 CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027731 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 with? 2 A. Forty-three, I think it was. V Q. Did any of those plants manufacture products 4 containing PCBs? 5 A. Two of those plants -- When I first carae to 6 Monsanto, two of them manufactured PCBs. 7 Q. Which were those? 8 A. Anniston, Alabama, and East St, Louis, 9 Illinois, known in Monsanto as the Anniston and the 10 Krurairich plant, K-r-u-m-m-r-i-c-h, plant. 11 Q. Did you write a report relating to your work 12 at the Anniston plant? 13 A. My stars, I don't know. Probably. I'm sure 14 we did, because we worked a long time on the process there. 15 Not PCB process. There was dye in their other process at 16 that plant and I worked with the State of Alabama 17 authorities on that plant and on that river, which fed the, 18 one of the reservoirs of the state, 19 Q. So you didn't work with the Anniston plant 20 regarding products containing PCBs? , . 21 A. No. I worked with the Anniston plant, and by 22 that time, I do not believe they were making PCBs but I 23 can't be absolutely positive on the timing here. We're 24 talking thirty years ago plus. 25 Q. Did you write a report regarding the work you - 25 CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027732 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 did at the Krummrich plant? 2 A, I probably wrote a hundred reports - I don't 3 have the foggiest notion where they're at - and on a number 4 of subjects. I studied every operation in the Krumrarich 5 plant, every single one of them, outlined them with the 6 safety people there, went over the industrial hygienicity 7 for each plant, for each employee. 8 0. I take it, then, you worked with products 9 containing PCEs at the Krummrich plant? 10 A. I worked with the PCB production department, 11 yes. 12 C. And do you recall what, if any, instructions 13 you gave regarding industrial hygiene for the employees at 14 the Krummrich plant working with products containing PCBs? 15 MR. FEATHERSTOH5t Object to the form of that 16 questioning. 17 THE WITNESS? What? IS MR. FEATHERSTCNEt I object to the form of the 19 questioning. We have no idea what he's talking about, and 20 when. <.,, 21 MR. BRADLEY t When Mr. Feather stone makes his 22 objection, he does that for later purposes, and unless he 23 instructs you not to answer, the rule is that you're 24 supposed to answer. 25 A. We did -- We made reports regularly, myself - 26 - CONCANHON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027733 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION' 1 and later, my people. I had a great number of people later 2 on. 3 q. (By Mr* Bradley) Do you recall the first time 4 you worked at the Krummrich plant regarding industrial 5 hygiene for employees working with products containing 6 PCBs ? A. Not the first time. It was not one of the 3 most difficult problems we had. We had no problems with 9 the employees there. We had other departments that needed 1C a little more help initially, but we did finally do there 11 al 1, including that department. 12 G. Do you recall roughly what time you did that 13 department at Krummrich? 14 A. No, I really don't, it would be a pure guess. 15 Q. Do you know whether it was before or after 16 1960? 17 A, To be perfectly honest, it could be either, 1G before or after. Probably after , 19 q. whenever it was, do you recall what 20 instructions, if any, you gave regarding industrial hygiene 21 for the employees at the Krummrich plant working with 22 products containing PCBs? 23 A. Specifically, no. 24 q, what was your next job title? 2 5 A. Manager of pollution control, - 27 - CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027734 COMPUTER AIDED TRAIISCRIPTICH 1 Q. When did you obtain that job title? 2 A. Somewhere probably in the early '60s. 3 Q. What work did you do as manager of pollution 4 control? 5 A. Went back through the company corporate 6 pi ants, plant by plant* I went through each plant with the division personnel; went over the pollution control, then 8 what we considered problems; recommended and had certain g pollution control facilities installed, or contacted 10 contract engineers to do it in a great number of plants. 11 Q. How long were you the manager of pollution 12 control? 13 A. Until I became manager of pollution control 14 and industrial hygiene, which was another few years. I 15 can't tell you exactly. 16 Q. in your work as manager of pollution control* 17 did you work on any matters involving PCBs? 18 A. Yes. 19 0. Describe those for me. 20 A. Within the process itself^ and it's handling * 21 and within the processes at Anniston and Krumrarich both, 2 both produced PCBs. Anniston, during that time, Anniston 23 went out of the business and Rrummrich became the only 2 4 plant, but in the meantime, we had collected it * tested it, 25 sampled throughout the system and sampled through their - 28 - COUCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027735 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 safety department; we taught them how to do the sampling 2 and testing - chlorine for PCRs, and anything else that 3 might have been involved. We did it to every operating 4 department in the corporation. 5 Q. What work did you do within the process, 6 itself, relating to PCBs 7 A. We went through the processes themselves with 8 the process people, engineering people, to discuss what 9 could be done, if anything, where it was necessary, to 10 remove or to allay either pollution or materials getting 11 into the working environment. 12 Q. 3y "process,* you mean the manufacturing 13 process of Aroclors? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. As manager of pollution control, do you recall 16 giving any instructions to either Anniston or Kruramrich 17 regarding the handling of products containing PCDs? 18 A. Gave them the same instructions we would have 19 given them, and did, for any chlorinated aromatic 20 hydrocarbon. We never had a case of overexposure in the 21 history of the operation. 22 MR. BRADLEY: I'll move to strike that last 23 part of that answer as nonresponsive. 24 THE WITNESS s But it's true. 25 MR. BRADLEYt I move to strike that comment, - 29 CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027736 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 too. 2 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) Were there written 3 instructions for Monsanto plants working with chlorinated 4 aromatic hydrocarbons while you were manager of pollution 5 control? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Were those instructions kept in a file? 8 A. I haven't the vaguest notion. All I know is 9 we gave instructions to their safety department and backed ao it up with inspections, as to handling procedures that must n be used. Most of which were, by the way, in place already. 12 Q. Which department or division were you working 13 in as manager of pollution control? 14 A. Medical department. 15 Q. Do you recall, during the period of time you 16 were manager of pollution control, what the instructions 17 were for employees working with chlorinated aromatic 18 hydrocarbons? 19 A. They were routine instructions in connection 20 with don't inhale any vapors from the ^ot operations, don't 21 get the hot stuff on you because it will burn, thermally 22 burn. We never had a case. 23 MR. BRADLEY; Move to strike the last portion 24 of that answer as nonresponsive. 2 5 MR. FEATHERSTONE t Which portion specifically, - 30 CQNCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027737 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 fir. Bradley? 2 MR. BRADLEYs "We never had a case." 3 MR. FEATHERSTOHE: All right. 4 THE WITNESSt Phrase it differently. 5 MR. PEATHERSTONEs You don't have to worry 6 about it. 7 THE WITNESS: Okay. 8 0. (By Mr. Bradley) Was there a period of tine 9 when you no longer had any responsibility for instructions 10 given to workers working with chlorinated aromatic 11 hydrocarbons? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. When was -- 14 THE WITNESS: You mean in person? You moan 15 me, in person? 1G MR. BRADLEYj You, personally, or if you were 17 responsible because the t3k was delegated to an employee 18 of yours, I still consider you responsible. 19 A. It would be delegated to employees of mine in 20 my section. 21 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) All right. And when it was 22 delegated to employees in your section, did they, those 23 employees, still report to you regarding the written 24 instructions given for workers working with chlorinated 25 aromatic hydrocarbons? - 31 - COMCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027738 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Was there a point in time when you no longer 3 had employees who were delegated that responsibility? 4 A. No. But the pollution control part of it was 5 separated at one time and I was given a chance to do either 6 one, and I took industrial hygiene. 7 Q. Was there ever a period that you're aware of 8 where the instructions changed that were given to Monsanto g workers working with chlorinated hydrocarbons? 10 A. No. 11 Q. As manager of pollution control *-- 12 THE WITNESS? Excuse me a moment. Were the 13 instructions changed? Were the basic premises changed, is 14 that what I mean? Department group was bigger and smaller, 15 there were more employees, les3 employees. That isn't what 16 you mean. You mean did we change the instructions in any 17 way in connection with the actual operation of the 13 department? 19 MR. BRADLEY ? Yes, that is what I meant, 20 A. Okay. No. - 21 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) In your work as manager of 22 pollution control, did you perform any tests to determine 23 whether PCBc were escaping from the Monsanto plants that 24 produced products containing PCBs? 25 A. Yes. - 32 - CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027739 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 Q. And did you write reports regarding that 2 situation? 3 A. There were obviously reports written. I don't 4 know whether the plant did or whether we did. The answer 5 isp I simply don't know. 6 Q. Do you recall whether that information was 7 related to any Governmental agency? 8 A. Yes. We related it to the Federal Government 9 completely. 10 Q. And do you recall who, within the Federal 11 Government, you related it to? 12 A. Two different agencies, and I don't recall -- 13 See, I was on the National Drinking Water Counsel for four 14 years, appointed by - I can't remember the secretary new 15 who appointed me. I spent one year. And then three years 16 - one year term - and then a three year term on the 17 National Drinking Water Advisory Counsel to the EPA, and we 18 made the standard. We made most of the current basic 19 framework standards that are used today by EPA. 20 Q. You don't recall, though f^wh`en you located 21 PCBs outside the Monsanto plants, which Government agencies 22 you reported that information to? 23 A. We sampled the river, the Mississippi River, 24 on a number of different occasions up and down that river 2 5 and to be perfectly frank with you, we never could find a - 33 CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027740 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 lot of these materials at all. Not just the PCBs, but 2 other chlorinated aromatics. So we assumed they were taken 3 up in the pollution control facilities within the plant or 4 they were outside the analytical range. 5 Q* Did you make reports to any Government agency 6 then, indicating that you found -- 7 A. Yes. The State of Illinois Pollution Control G authorities in Springfield, and later, there were reports 9 made, and I did not make them, so I really would not - from 10 the plant, but I can't tell you because I don't know who 11 did it. 12 Q. Were you the author of the report to the State 13 of Illinois? 14 A. I took them up and talked to the State of 15 Illinois Pollution authorities many times but it was not 16 just PCBs, now, you understand. 17 0. Were you the author of the report that went to 18 the State of Illinois regarding PCBs? 19 A. I don't recall the author, whether it was I or 20 one of my people or one of their peopl^. . It was an 21 analytical job, and I don't know. 22 Q. what years are we talking about here? 23 A. Gosh, I really -- Has to be in the '60s 24 sometime, probably into the early '70s. 25 MR. BRADLEY? I'm sorry. I didn't hear . - 34 CONCANNON & JAEGER _____ -- ___ _q____ COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 A. And probably into the early ' 70g . 2 Q. (Ey Mr. Bradley) Do you recall the year that 3 you became manager of pollution control for industrial 4 hygiene? 5 A. No. Pollution control and industrial hygiene, 6 Bad to have been in the late 50's, I guess. No, I don't 7 recall the time exactly. 8 Q. But you became manager for pollution control 9 and industrial hygiene after you finished your work as 10 manager of pollution control? 11 A. Yes. Then I became -- Then I became director 12 of industrial hygiene and health service records, through 13 the medical department at Monsanto. 14 MR. FEATHERSTONE j Read back that answer. 15 (Whereupon, the reporter propounded the previous answer.) 16 A. Those were our health computer records, 17 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) Do you recall when you 13 became director of industrial hygiene and health services 19 records? 20 A. Well, it's di f f icul t to &ayDirector is a 21 different salary level, is the only reason they use manager 22 and director and so forth. This is not a director, like a 23 staff director. It had to have been sometime in the late 24 ' 60s. 25 Q. What work did you do as manager for pollution - 35 CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027742 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 control and industrial hygiene? 2 A. By this time, I had some employees and they 3 did - they were industrial hygienist, one of which also had 4 been trained in pollution control, as well, and ve used 5 them as needed. Generally, they were assigned a group of 6 Monsanto plants. A man would have six or eight Monsanto plants, maybe as many as ten or eleven, and he would handle 8 the industrial hygiene problems and pollution problems up 9 co a point in all of those plants and report back to me. I 10 then either went out with him to the plants, discussed it 11 or if he could handle it himself, he did it himself. 12 Later, we had -- The vice-president called us in and said, 13 "I've got to separate these functions, they're getting too 14 complex. So take your choice, Jack. Do you want 15 industrial hygiene or pollution control?" I took 16 industrial hygiene. I thought it was then the most 17 imperative thing. Another man in the engineering 18 department at Monsanto took over the pollution control 19 function. 20 Q. Why did you determine industrial hygiene was 21 the most imperative of the two? 22 A. Because I thought at the time we were doing 23 very well with pollution control and the real challenge was 24 in industrial hygiene. 25 Q. VIhy was that a challenge? - 36 COWCANNOH & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027743 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 A. Many of the questions m connection with 2 industrial hygiene had not been answered. Collectively 3 this the nationally - all you had to do is read the 4 literature and we were working on those things and solved 5 the majority of them. 6 Q. Which questions were not answered? 7 A. The long-term low level exposure to organic 8 chemicals of many kinds, not just PCBs. In fact, PCBa was 9 simple compared to some of them? and the health records 10 that go with them. We had complete health records. 11 Monsanto had been giving physical exams since 1936, so we 12 had detailed health records on all of our employees, and 13 going over those records and following the sequence of 14 events to determine if we had any problems that were 15 unusual to an individual department or set of products. 16 Q. Why did Monsanto begin giving physical exams 17 in 1936? 18 MR. FEATHERSTQHE: How is he supposed to know 19 that? He wasn't even there. 20 MR. BRADLEYi Do you have, an objection? 21 MR. FEATHERSTONEt Well, lack of foundation 22 for the answer. 23 MR. BRADLEY: Fine. Go ahead and answer. 24 A. Because it was smart and intelligent. It 25 means a lot to people. - 37 - CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027744 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) Why was It smart and 2 intelligent? 3 THE WITNESSi To do physical exams? 4 MR. BRADLEYi Yes. 5 A. It was the only way you could determine if you 6 were harming the employees or not. During the World War 7 Two, the company manufactured ammunition and everything 8 else in the crappiest places you ever had seen or we would 9 have lost the bloody war. At that point in time, the 10 physical exams continued * 11 0. Was there a protocol for the medical exams? 12 A. There was a standard exacted for the basic - 13 Ask Kelly about this. Ask Dr. Kelly about this. There was 14 a standard set up of what we wanted to do, butyou then had 15 to look at the individual products and product lines to see 16 if there was a discrete type of medical function or 17 malfunction that could be identified, and we looked for 10 that. We had doctors in all the plants, too. 19 Q. The decision -- Well, let me ask it this way. 20 Do you know when Monsanto first began 4ts work with 21 products containing PCBs? 22 MR. FEATHERSTONE s What work are you talking 23 about? 24 MR. BRADLEYt Any work. 25 MR. FEATHERSTONE? Object to the form. - 38 CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027745 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 A. The manufacture of it began long before I 2 joined Monsanto. 3 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) Did the manufacture of it 4 begin when Monsanto took over Swan Chemical? 5 MR. FEATHERSTONE x Object to the lack of 6 personal knowledge. 7 A. The records so indicate. 8 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) All right. And do the 9 records indicate that happened around 1933 , 1935? 10 A. I can't recall that. 11 0. Do you know if there is -- Have you reviewed 12 any documents indicating why Monsanto began giving physical 13 exams to its employees in 1936? 14 A. I don't have to have anybody tell me. It's a 15 good idea. 15 0. Have you read any documents indicating why 17 Monsanto began giving physical exams to its employees in 18 1936? 19 A. I don't know what you mean by documentation, 20 Dr. Kelly became the physician in charge ,of Monsanto 21 medical at the time when the primary functions were two or 22 three plants. He set the policy up as a policy to aid and 23 abet good health on the part of our employees, and a signal 24 if there was bad health developing in any one place. 25 Physical exam did that. It's still going on today. - 39 CONCANNON & JAEGER water" PCB-SD0000027746 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 0. My question is, have you seen anything written 2 by Dr. Kelly, or by anyone else, that would indicate why 3 Monsanto began giving physical exams to its employees in 4 1936? 5 A. No. And I haven't seen any darn medical 6 bulletins why they put tails on airplane, but they do it 7 because they won't fly. I'm sorry. I don't understand 8 that question. It makes no sense. o MR. PEATHERSTONEi Mr. Garrett, he's asking 10 you if you've seen any written document that states there 11 are some other reasons, and I guess the answer to that is 12 no? 13 A. No, it's not the answer. It's replete in the 14 literature connected with health effects on workers of any 15 variety. 16 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) It's replete in the 17 literature the reasons why Monsanto began -- 18 A. No. Why anyone would do physical exams on 19 their employees. We did too. I think that's the best 20 answer. ,, 21 Q. Well, I know that this topic is apparently 22 upsetting to you, but I'm interested in finding out whether 23 these documents that indicated why everybody was giving 24 physical exams to their employees are documents that were 25 maintained in Monsanto's file system somewhere? - 40 - CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027747 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 THE WITNESS: The reason for it, or the 2 documents of the health status of the employees? 3 MR. BRADLEY# The reason that you began giving 4 physical exams to employees in 1936. 5 A. I would suggest that you ask the person who 6 started it. That's Dr. Kelly. MR. BRADLEY: I will ask him. I take it, you 8 haven't -- I actually want to know now whether you've seen 9 anything written on why Monsanto started that practice. 10 That's really all that I'm asking, if you have seen 11 anything written that would describe why Monsanto started that? 13 A. No. I would have considered it unnecessary. 14 Q, All right. Was the standard set up by Dr. 15 Kelly for the physical exams written? 16 A. I don't know whether they were specifically 17 written. Pull physical can be a normal affair. What 18 special things he did? I don't know. Kelly would have to 19 answer that. 20 Q. Do you no whether special^ standards were set 21 for employees working with PCBs? A. In a company that manufactured a whole host of 2 3 chlorinated aromatics, all of the chlorinated aromatics, 24 there were special standards if they were intelligent to 2 5 do. In most cases, they were not. They were given a full - 41 CONCAMNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027748 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 physical examination. In some cases, working with them, 2 they did tests of - did some tests on them. You'd have to 3 ask Kelly why and what they did, but by and large, an 4 employee at Monsanto got a ful1 screening physical exam 5 periodically. Added to that would be any special 6 examination that Dr. Kelly deemed necessary to observe 7 progression of that employee's health. 8 Q. And there were doctors in all of the Monsanto 9 plants? 1C A. Either doctors full-time or doctors part-time. 11 0. And would that be true from 1936 forward? 12 A. I don't know. You'd have to ask Kelly. it 13 was true when I came to work for Monsanto. The one we had 14 in Texas City was a part-time man. 15 Q. And I take it, the doctors in the different 16 plants when you began working for Monsanto were the doctors 17 who did the physical exams? 18 A. Some. Some were full-time Monsanto employees. 19 Most of them were contract physicians or physician groups 20 that did it. We sent the new employees, down to their office 21 and they gave them the physical and the physical exam 22 results on our forms came out and they were filed. 23 Q. Do you know whether the physicians that were 24 contracted out had any special training in symptoms of 25 people who were poisoned by chlorinated aromatic - 42 CONCANNON & JAEGER WAT ER^PC^B^SD0000027749 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 hydrocarbons? 2 HR. FEATHERSTONE: Object to the form. 3 A. I don't know. 4 0. (By Mr. Bradley) Do you know whether the 5 doctors contracted out by Monsanto to do the physical exams 6 of employees had any special training? 7 A. You'd have to ask them. Ho* I don't know. 8 I'm sure if there was something germane to be done specific 9 above the current, the then current full examination, it 10 would have been done. Our purpose was to protect the 11 health of the workers. If it required a specialty test, 12 we'd do it. 13 0. What work did you do as director of industrial 14 hygiene and health services records? 15 A. Supervised the industrial hygiene group which, 16 by this time was probably, with the secretaries, probably 17 fifteen people, and supervised the group in the health 18 services computer system, which contained twenty-four 19 people, 20 Q. What would the people in ^the, health services 21 computer center do? 22 A. The plant would send in their physical exam 23 forms, finished forms, and any special exam material. 24 Results would be sent in, punched into the commuter cards 2 5 under the man's name and put into the computer file. We - 43 COHCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027750 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 had a computer system on every employee at Monsanto. 2 Q. When did Monsanto first begin its computer 3 system covering every Monsanto employee? 4 A. God, they worked for me. I can't recall 5 exactly. It had to have been early ' 70s, late ' 60s. Early 6 70's, I would believe. 7 Q. In the early ' 70s, roughly# how many employees 8 did Monsanto have? q A. Somewhere around fifty thousand. That could 10 be twenty percent one way or the other. 11 Q. Over the period of time you worked with 12 Monsanto, was the standard for the physical exam ever 13 changed? 14 A. We added to the exam in some plants because of 15 materials handling, 16 Q. Would that have been set up as an addition to 17 the standard? 18 A. No. If a person showed some kind of physical 19 problem and it had to be taken care of by periodic testing, 20 Dr. Kelly would put it in and it would-be recorded in the 21 files with the computer setup, but primarily everybody got 22 a standard physical exam except in many plants, we had 23 special tests that were done on individual workers or 24 groups of workers and those were also put in the computer. 25 Q. Did you have special exams for workers working - 44 CONCANNON JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027751 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 with PCBs ? 2 A. I don't think so. I really don't think bo, I 3 don't think there was anything that you could find as a 4 separate test. 5 Q. In your work as director of the health 6 services records, did you ever access information on the health of Monsanto employees without identifying the 8 employees by name? 9 A. Many times. I didn't. It was done by 10 someone. 11 Q. How long were you the director of industrial 12 hygiene and health services records? 13 A. Until X retired. 14 Q. I'm now going to show you what has been marked 15 as Plaintiff's Exhibit 1427 and ask that you review that 16 document. 17 MR. BRADLEYi Actually, if nobody minds, I'd 18 appreciate a five minute break. 19 (Whereupon, a five minute recess was taken.) 20 THE WITNESS i This you hf^ve .given me? 21 MR. BRADLEY: Yes. Can you tell me what 22 Plaint if f'8 Exhibit 1427 is? 23 THE WITNESS: Ask the question. I didn't hear 24 i t. 25 MR. BRADLEY: Oh. - 45 CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027752 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 0. (By Mr. Bradley) Can you tell me what it is. 2 What is this exhibit? 3 A. This is an analytical setup, including 4 diagrams, from an electronic capture fingerprint, which 5 each compound has its own specific fingerprint, you can't 6 fool with it, done on some samples, to the best of my 7 knowledge, of material from NCR. 8 Q. what is material from NCR? 9 A. NCR is National Cash Register Company, and 10 these things went with their people, analytical people, 11 from NCR. Tucker was an analytical chemist of considerable 12 skill. 13 Q. This is dated December 3, 1969? 14 A. That's what it says. 15 Q. And the samples were run to, in part at least, 16 to determine the presence of Aroclor? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And this document was apparently sent to you, 19 J.T. Garrett, and C. Paton; is that correct? 20 A. Yes. Paton was Tucker' s 08,6 at the time. 21 0. Do you recall reviewing this document? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Does this appear to be a true and accurate 24 copy of the document sent to you and to C. Paton on 25 December 3, 1969 with the subject of Aroclor wildlife, NCR - 46 C0NCANN0N JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027753 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 water samples? 2 A. If Dr. Tucker said it was true, I'll buy it. 3 Be was a first-class analytical chemist, particularly 4 graphic analytical chemist. 5 Q. Is this the sort of document that Monsanto 6 would maintain in one of its files? A. I don't know. The only reason this might be 8 maintained is because it was part of the analytical group 9 and may have ended up in their files. Normally, my copy of 10 it -- This probably went into the analytical group's 11 Aroclor file. My copy would have been destroyed by the 12 retention program. 13 Q. Was there a different retention program for 14 different departments? 15 A No. 16 Q. Why would the analytical department maintain a 17 document longer than you might? 18 A. I don't know that they did. I'm saying it 19 might have been. You asked me where it came from. I don't 20 know. It is not -- It's nothing mor^ than showing the 21 difference in the electron capture screens, what he saw, 22 and Dr. Tucker, if he said he saw it, he saw it. He was an 23 excellent, excellent spectroscoper. 24 Q. I'm how going to show you Plaintiff's Exhibit ? G, 438 and ask you to review that, if you would, please. - 47 CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER" PCB"-Sb0b00027754 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 A. Yes. Hr. H.B. Patrick was safety director at 2 the Krummrich plant at the time. Department 246 was an 3 Aroclor department at the W.G. Krummrich plant in Sauget. 4 0. And this document has a date of November 14th, 5 1955? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And about two-thirds of the way down, it has e "Jack T. Garrett" printed above that, and has a signature. 9 Is that your signature? 10 A. That's right. 11 Q. Is this a document that you wrote? 12 A. Yes. Apparently. I wrote thousands ofthem 13 but yes, apparently it's mine. 14 Q. Does it appear to be a true and accurate copy 15 of the letter that you wrote back on November 14th, 1955? 16 A. It's a copy of a series of documents written 17 to Mr. Patrick concerning eating in the processing 18 operation at the Krummrich plant, which is a miserable 19 habit and we wanted it stopped. 20 Q. And is this the sort of document that you 21 maintained in your files at Monsanto? 22 A. Probably would have, except this is a document 23 that would have been destroyed by the document retention 24 people. By the way, there were people who came around and *a rj looked into ray files and asked me questions about them, - 48 CONCANNON & JAEGER _ WATER PCB-SD0000027755 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 "Do you want to keep this?" "Why should you keep this." 2 0. When did they do that? 3 A. At least once a year. I guess the last two or 4 three years when I was there. 5 Q. Did they do that for anyone else? 6 A. All of Monsanto. 7 Q. Did they tel1 youwhy they were doing that? 8 A. Yes. They didn't haveenough room# and the 9 building wouldn't stand any more file cabinets# full file 10 cabinets. They would collapse. 11 Q. Did they tell you whether they were attorneys? 12 THE WITNESS People that did this? 13 MR. BRADLEY: Yes. 14 A. They were from the personnel department. They 15 gave you a chance to hold it. If I wanted to hold my copy 1C of this, I could have. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying 17 that they arbitrarily said "Let's throw this file cabinet ie in the river." Not that it wouldn't be a pollution hazard, 19 but the point is# we could have retained it but the problem 20 is# how many documents do you retain? # This is a document 21 that is of a subject that we are all aware of# and that is 22 eating in processing operations# particularly true in 23 health related organizations within the industry. They 24 were eating in the Aroclor department. We told them to 25 quit. - 49 CONCANNON & JAEGER COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 0. Who was responsible -- 2 A. And they quit. 3 C. Who was responsible for sending around the 4 people from the personnel department to help identify 5 documents to be retained and those to be destroyed? 6 HR. FEATHERSTONEi Object to the lack of 7 foundation. 8 A. I have absolutely no idea. I'm sorry. Excuse 9 me. 10 HR. FEATHERSTONE5 That's all right. 11 A. I have no idea. 12 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) In looking now at the 13 Exhibit, 438. Was there data within the medical department 14 that indicated that Aroclor vapors could contaminate 15 lunches? 16 A, No. And they couldn't have. 17 0. And upon what information did you rely on when 18 you said "It is the opinion of the medical department that IS the eating of lunches should not be allowed in this 20 department for a number of reasons. Humber one, Aroclor 21 vapors and other process vapors contaminate the lunches 22 unless they were properly protected?" 23 A. It started when we began to look in the -- 24 You don't realise it but in the early part of my career at 25 Monsanto, we still used ice condensers filled with chopped - 50 CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027757 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 ice, and a guy chopped it and put it in there. This was to 2 cool the condenser that would condense materials. We had a 3 terrible time at Krummrich because it was the last plant 4 where we got rid of all those old ice condensers. We had a 5 terrible time because people put their lunches in the damn 6 thing because there was ice in it, and that's what started 7 this ruckus about quit exposing people to unnecessary 8 exposures of any chemical, which is not a very smart idea. 9 So we started in this route, and this happens to be the one 10 we wrote on the Aroclor department because we found the 11 Aroclor guys with their lunches stacked all over the place. 12 We made them -- What we did, we made them put the lunches 13 in the compartments - in the lunchroom and go to the 14 lunchroom to eat. 15 Q. Was there some information that you relied 16 upon in determining that lunches shouldn't been exposed to 17 A.rocl or vapors? 18 A. No. Lunches shouldn't been exposed to any 19 chemical vapors, period. We made products at Kruramricb a 20 hell of a lot more toxic than Aroclor ,was. 21 Q. When you wrote this, was it your opinion that 22 Aroclor vapors were toxic? 23 A. 11 was my opinion that -- I had no opinion, 24 in essence, of what toxicology might have been connected 25 with anything that would absorb on anything, but I said if - 51 CONCANNON & JAEGER ____ _ -- ___ -- -- -- -- COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 you're going to get rid of a problem in a pi ant as big as 2 Krummr i ch, you had to get rid of all of the eating in the 3 processing departments. You don't get rid of just come of 4 them. You either quit it or you let anybody eat anything 5 they damn please anyplace. So this was part of our efforts 6 to get rid of eating in the processing departments. Most 7 of the plants prohibited it to start with, and the Queeny 8 plant had always prohibited it, right across the river from 9 this plant. We had a long running argument with the 10 Krummrich plant about stop the lunch storing in the damn 11 processing department, where there was a possibility of it 12 being contaminated with the products? or materials in those 13 processes, and believe me, some of them were very, very, 14 toxic. This just didn't happen to be that toxic. 15 Q. When you wrote this back in '55, did you do 16 any review of any documents to determine the toxicity of 17 Arcelor vapors? 18 A. No, I went through all of the departments 19 that had eating in the departments and stopped it because 20 -- The union over there had rotated Ridding. This is 21 completely rotational bidding, on the basis of seniority. 22 A man in the Aroclor department could be anywhere in the 23 plant every time they rebid, and frequently was. If you 24 didn't stop it, we were going to have a damn mess all over 25 the plant continuously. We had a hell of a battle. We - 52 COUCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027759 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 finally stopped it. They did not do it anymore. It's 2 dangerous to eat in a damn chemical processing operation, I 3 don't care what it is. 4 Q. When you wrote this, was there any information 5 that existed regarding the toxicity of Aroclor vapors? 6 A. No. In the wipe samples we took -- We took wipe samples using a pad, which is standard procedure 3 Peds do it all the time. We did it long, long, long before 9 they did. You wiped down metal materials and go through 10 very fancy analytical methods using an electron scope to 11 see if there was anything there. In almost any case where 12 you had open processing, open processing, shovels and so 13 forth - and believe me, there are a 1ot of wheel barrels 14 and shovels in Krummrich - those processes would show 15 evidence of chemical materials. We gave every employee in 16 this plant one day's clothing every damn day, In several 17 of the departments, they had new shoes everyday that had 18 been covered with oi1 to prevent materials from absorbing. 19 Every single operator in this plant was issued new 20 clothing, and socks and underwear and a jacket, and the 21 same was true at the Queeny plant. 22 MR BRADLEYi No, Bruce. If you're going to 23 say it, say it out load. 24 MR. FEATH3RST0NE s Off the record. a r MR. ERADLEYi No. -- 53 -- CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027760 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 MR. FEATHER5T0NE: Yes, Then you can put it 2 on the record if you`d like. 3 (Whereupon, a discussion was held between Counsel and 4 witness, off the record.) 5 Q. (By Hr, Bradley) When did Monsanto start 6 providing new clothes for its employees working with 7 First of all, did Monsanto provide new clothes for the 8 employees working with PCBs? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. When did that start? 11 A. It was going on when I came. That was in the 12 '50s. 13 Q. Did Monsanto provide - 14 A. Excuse me. The new clothes were provided 15 daily. Laundered clothes everyday. 16 Q. (By Mr, Bradley) And the new shows, were 17 those provided daily? 18 A. They were rotated and they were recoated if 19 need be. Now, I'm not sure if that went on in this 20 department. It went on in many departments. They were 21 recleaned and recoated. 22 Q. And that would be true for employees working 23 with PCBs? 24 MR. FEATHERSTONE t He just said he wasn't 25 sure. 54 CONCAHNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027761 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 A. I'm not sure of that, With highly toxic 2 substances, yes. 3 0. (Ey Mr. Bradley) And the change of socks, was 4 that -- 5 A* Yes, that was part of it. Socks, underwear 6 and coveralls. Q. And was that true for employees working with 8 PCBs? 9 A, The PCB Department -- When I first went to 10 the department, they had what they call toxic clothes. 11 This offended my nicety, "toxic clothes." It sounded to me 12 like clothes that were toxic and actually, what they were 13 was company clothing for people to use in toxic 14 departments, or in departments that contained what was 15 classified as toxic materials. This had been going on for 16 years before I ever came to St. Louis. Okay? We 17 straightened this thing out so that people that worked in 10 various departments got company clothing. The union came 19 along and negotiated company clothing for all Krummrich 20 plant employees. So I don't know how /they got them. They 21 had company clothes. 22 Q. Did the workers working with PCBs have the 23 company clothes that included the socks and the underwear? 24 A. To the best of my -- I don't know. That's the 25 best -- I don't know. They had company clothing. How - 55 CONCANNOM & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027762 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 extensive, I don't know. 2 Q. Did you read anything that was written that 3 explained why Monsanto had company clothes for employees 4 working with PCBs before the union got involved? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. It was a company plant deal 8 Q. Was it something that wasgenerated from the 9 medical department, do you know? 10 A. No, T don't think so. I think it may 11 originally have been generated by Dr. Kelly back in late 12 '30s. He may have made them give clothing to certain 13 departments then, based on the knowledge they had then of 14 those departments. I don't know. I know that the company 15 clothing issue was a settled issue when I came to St. 1C Louis. 17 Q. Looking now at Exhibit 438 there, looking at 1C number three. You state, beginning with the second 19 sentence, "'While the Areclors are not particularly 20 hazardous from our own experience, thi^p is a difficult 21 problem to define because early literature work claimed 22 that chlorinated biphenyls were quite toxic materials by 23 ingestion or inhalation." Did I read that correctly? 24 A. That is correct. 25 Q, What early literature work claimed that - 56 CONCANNON & JAEGER WAT ErHpC^B^SD0000027763 CONFUTES AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 chlorinated biphenyls were quite toxic materials by 2 ingestion or inhalation? 3 A. I have absolutely no idea. Came out in the 4 medical literature, though, apparently. 5 Q. Do you recall whether you reviewed medical 6 literature that indicated that chlorinated biphenyls were 7 quite toxic materials by ingestion or inhalation? e A. Keep in mind that in chlorinating, you have 9 also chlorine problems, and we all know that's a dangerous 10 material; and also, that in a plant like the Krumrarich n plant, that manufactured over a hundred products, vast 12 numbers of which were made by aromatic hydrocarbons, most 13 of the aromatics which were manufactured were hazardous. 14 The plant then addressed the company clothing issue, which 15 had been started before the war, I guess. I don't know. 16 What I was trying to do is to stop them from eating in the 17 departments. I don't care if they're not hazardous. If 18 you rotate employees from one development to another, 19 they're going to eventually get into a hazardous department 20 and get food, smear that stuff on their food. We were 21 trying to get rid of eating in the departments, and we did. 22 It's a difficult task, believe it or not, to change 23 operators' habits. They're like anybody else, they develop 24 a habit, they want to keep it. We declared it hazardous as 25 an issue. As I said, there is no evidence that Aroclore, - 57 CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027764 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 in any kind of context that a man would normally get from 2 the air on his food, was not probably a hazard. It was not 3 probably a very serious hazard, if a hazard at all# but 4 there were departments that we manufactured amine compounds 5 that were very# very toxic# and these same people could be 6 in and out of any department in the plant and we - you 7 could not stop the eating in the amine departments, and we 3 tried that. So we stopped it in the entire plant# in that 9 plant and in the Queeny plant across the river# because of 10 the number of toxic materials that they were handling. 11 Now, to say this is toxic from the standpoint of the 12 possibility of them absorbing through their food is really 13 a punch line. We're trying to stop them from eating in the 14 operating departments at the W.G. Krummrich plant, and we 15 did. This is part of it. 16 MR. BRADLEY: Would you read the question 17 back? 18 (Whereupon# the reporter propounded the previous question.) 19 A. Incidently, they are. But I go back to my 20 argument that what we were trying to dg -- I'd been there 21 six months when this was written. I was trying to do what 22 Dr, Kelly wanted done# and that was to stop eating in the 23 operating departments, and we got it done. 24 Q. I'm now going to show you plaintiff's Exhibit 25 428 and ask you to review that. - 58 CONCANNON JAEGER _______ --s-- 00027765 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 A. Yes. 2 Q, Have you seen that document before? 3 A, Probably. I've seen a great many discussing 4 that particular group. 5 Q. This is a March 6, 1969 innerdepartmental memo 6 to E. Wheeler j is that correct? 7 A. Yes. From Bill Richard, W.R. Richard. 8 0. And it indicates that you were sent a copy; is o that correct? 10 A. Yes, I got a copy. 11 Q. And is this a fair and true copy of the 12 document that W. R. Richard wrote to E. Wheeler? 13 A. As far as I know, yes. 14 Q. And is this the sort ofdocument that you 15 maintained in your files at Monsanto? 16 A. I would maintain them in my file. 17 Q. Looking now at the bottom of page two, where 18 it says, "Well prepared discussions with Xnd. Bio-test, 19 Monsanto biochemists, the medical and legal departments 20 must take place now." Do you know if '-those well prepared 21 discussions with those departments took place? 22 A. Wei1, you're talking about problems proposed 23 by the Environmental Defense Fund. The Environmental 24 Defense Fund is an organization started in Long Island by a 25 bunch of lawyers and millionaires, all of them -- CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027766 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 MR. PEATHERSTONEi The question is, did the 2 discussions take placer to your knowledge, the ones he 3 refer red to at the bottom of the page. 4 A. I can't recall. They probably did, but can't 5 say that they did, 6 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) Have you ever had a 7 conversation with anyone from Nevada Power Company? 8 A. Not to my knowledge. 9 Q. Have you ever had a discussion with anyone who 10 said that they were making an inquiry on behalf of Nevada 11 Power Company? 12 A. No. Not to my knowledge. 13 Q. Do you know whether customers of Monsanto1s 14 working with PCBs were ever informed that Monsanto workers 15 working with PCBs got clean clothes every day from the 16 company? 17 MR. PEATHERSTONE s Object to the form of the 18 question. IS A. Because the clothing was provided as a plant 20 and subsequently a union issue, it was. not issued because 21 of PCBs. V7e would not have ordinarily changed workers' 22 clothing in the PCB department. 23 MR. BRADLEY: I move to strike the answer as 24 not responsive. 25 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) My question is, do you know - 60 CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027767 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 whether customers of Monsanto were ever informed about the 2 clothing policy for workers, for Monsanto workers, in 3 chlorinated - working with chlorinated aromatic 4 hydrocarbons? 5 A. I go back and say at Queeny, at Kruramrich, the issue was lunches in the operating departments, not whether we gave them clothing or not, and the way we did it was 8 issued company clothing to everybody in the plant and o> forced them out of the operating departments and to eat in 1C the lunchrooms which were provided. Because of rotating 11 bidding, a man can be in the Aroclor department today and 12 in the, in one of the highly toxic departments tomorrow, 13 and we did not - he would take his bloody lunch along and 14 we didn't want him to do that, so we said we'll change the 15 clothing, give everybody clothing and stop eating in any of 16 the departments. You eat in the lunchroom Now, the issue 17 was one of eating in the lunchroom and the possibility of 18 getting products, or raw materials that were, in fact, ID toxic on their lunchbox, bags - and they used the bags in 20 the damndest sort of ways you've ever /|een. They'd put 21 them in our condenser boxes and everyplace else* 11 was a 2 2 dangerous and hazardous issue* We stopped it in most 23 plants without all that trouble. We had trouble in the 2 4 Krumrarich pi ant. > tj Q, My question was, did you tell customers of -61 ~ CONCANHON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027768 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 Monsanto about the clothing policy that you had for your 2 workers working with the chlorinated aromatic hydrocarbons? 3 A. No, We didn't do it at Anniston. It was a 4 specific, special issue connected with that plant, 5 particular plant, and its union structure. 6 Q. Excuse me. Did Monsanto inform its customers 7 in 1955 or later that it shouldn't allow its employees to 8 eat around Aroclor vapors? 9 A. I tolo many customers of ours not to allow 10 their people in areas where there were toxic materials, 11 okay? That's a standard issue from an industrial hygiene 12 point-of-view. 13 Q. Did Monsanto ever send out a warning or other 14 kind of information bulletin, though, to its customers 15 telling them that their employees shouldn't eat around, in 16 areas where there are Aroclor vapors? 17 A. No. Because that wouldn't have been germane. IS Q. Did Monsanto, in 1955 or any subsequent period 19 of time, inform its customers that early literature work 20 claimed that chlorinated biphenyls wer-e quite toxic 21 materials by ingestion or inhalation? 22 A. Everybody was, had that information avail able 23 to them. Yes, I told many of the customers myself. 24 Q. My question is -- 25 A. Yes, they were told. - 62 CONCANHON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027769 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 Q. All right. And how were they are told? 2 A. Told by either one of us or by letters from 3 Dr. Keller or letters from the production department. 4 Q. When -- 5 A. It`s on the labels. 6 Q. Do the labels say that early literature work 7 claims that, claimed that chlorinated biphenyls were quite 8 toxic materials by ingestion or inhalation; is that what D the labels said? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Oh. 12 A. The label said, "Hazardous material," or 13 Chlorinated materials can be hazardous," and so forth. 14 All it says is to prevent people from getting chlorinated 15 compounds in their ingestive system. Our problem at 16 Kruir.mrich was to get them to quit eating in the damn 17 depa rtments. 10 MR. FEATHERSTONEi Jack. 10 A. Departments. Strike damn. In the 20 departments, so we could -- Because apme of the 21 departments were genuinely hazardous to do that. 22 Q. (By Mr. Bradely) On looking here at Exhibit 23 438, the last sentence says, "In any case, where a workman 24 claimed physical harm from any contaminated food, it would ? 5 be extremely difficult on the basis of past literature - 63 COMCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027770 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 reports to counter such claims. 2 A. That's true. 3 Q. What do you mean by that? 4 A. If a worker claimed that you, that he got 5 exposed to something operating in your plant, he comes to 6 the doctor. The doctor does a physical exam on him and 7 they do certain testing, If a worker of a transport 8 company, or something like that, did it, I don't know who 9 would take care of it. We did it if it was an accident. 10 We handled all accidents connected with Aroclor, Monsanto 11 did. I went many times myself. 12 Q. Did Monsanto inform any of its customers that 13 in any case where a workman claimed physical harm from any 14 food contaminated with Aroclor, that it would be extremely 15 difficult on the basis of past literature reports to 1G counter such claims? 17 THE WITNESS x Specifically? 18 MR. BRADLEY: Yes, 19 A. I don't know. 20 0. (By Mr. Bradley) Are you, familiar with a 21 September, 1937 round table discussion that included Cecil 22 Drinker? 23 A. I knew him before he died. He probably - 24 MR. FEATHERSTONE: Jack, he's asking whether 25 you're familiar with a round table discussion involving Dr. - 64 CONCANNON & JAEGER ______3^b^S QoQo02777T COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 Drinker and some other people. 2 MR. BRADLEY: Lewis Schwartz, Emmett Kelly, 3 Arthur Byer? 4 A. I have probably seen it, yes. 5 Q. Did you discuss with Dr * Kelly the work done 6 by Dr. Drinker regarding chlorinated biphenyls as reported 7 in the September, 1937, Volume 19, Number 7 issue of the 8 Journal of Industrial Hygiene and Toxicology? 9 MR. FEATHERSTONE* Object to the form. 10 A. I was fourteen at the time. 11 MR. FEATHERSTONE: That's never mattered to 12 any of the questioning in this room. Jack. Go ahead, 13 answer. 14 MR. BRADLEY: Let me address that, Mr. 15 Garrett. 7 didn't ask you how old you were or whether in 16 1937 you learned about this. My question was more narrow. 17 My question was whether you ever discussed this with Emmett 18 Kelly? 19 A. We discussed Phil Drinker's work and Drinker's 20 work on this material, yes. He made ^ome very bad 21 mistakes. 22 Q. (Ey Mr. Bradley) I'm going to show -- 23 MR. BRADLEYi Off the record. 24 (Whereupon, a discussion was held between Counsel, off the 25 record.) - 65 CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027772 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) I'm going to show you know 2 Plaintiff's Exhibit 979, and ask you to review that and 3 actually, I'm going to have some relatively detailed 4 questions about the round table discussion that's reported 5 at the end of that exhibit, So why don't we take a ten 6 minute break, or as long ao you need to review that exhibit. 8 THE WITNESS: I can tell you right now, I 9 don't know anything about it. As far as I'm concerned, 10 whatever happened here, Kelly had to do with. I didn't. I 11 don't even remember, recall this document. I'm 3u re it's 12 in existence. It's a 1937 document. The problem is, from 13 the time Dr. Drinker did this, there is an awful lot better 14 analytical methods, awful lot of better ways of identifying 15 conditions, awful lot better toxicological studies, tests. 16 So whatever Phil Drinker did in 1937 or prior to that, I'm 17 not sure is really germane. 18 MR. BRADLEY* Well, Mr. Garrett, would it be 19 germane to you if, at a round table discussion, a GE 20 employee talked about problems with thre health of up to fifty of its employees who were working with chlorinated 22 biphenyl? 23 A. 24 Absolutely not. MR. FEATHERSTONEs I object to the form. It's 2 5 a clear misstatment of fact, Mr. Bradley. So if you're - 66 - CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027773 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 going to make statement like that, get into arguments, get 2 your facts right. j MR. BRADLEYs I move to strike Mr. 4 Featherstone 1s comments , other than his objection. 5 THE WITNESS t I don't know what went on in 6 1937, first. Second, in 1937, analytical methods available were zilch, so they're talking about what might be or 8 should be or might occur, because they have no analytical 9 methods to go down into the level we're talking about. 10 MR. FEATHERSTONEI All right. This whole 11 thing started, Mr. Bradley, with you wanting to take ten 12 minutes for Mr. Garrett to read this document. Is this 13 something that you need to -- 14 MR. BRADLEYt He says he didn't need to, no. 15 KR. FEATHERSTONE t He said he didn't need to 10 because he doesn't know anything about the document. If you're going to ask him about the document, we're going to 1C take the time for him to read it. What is it going to be, 19 Mr, Bradley? 20 MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Peathetone, when you 21 conduct your deposition, you can lay groundrules. Right 22 now, I want you to make your objection or I want you to 23 shut up. It's my deposition. I'll ask the question I 24 want. If you want to instruct him not to answer, that's 25 fine. What I want you to do is behave professionally and - 67 C OIIC AN NON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027774 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 not make those kinds of stupid comments. There is 2 absolutely no need for it. 3 MR. FEATHERSTONEt Keep babbling, Ralph. 4 MR. BRADLEY: Let's puts it this way. I'm 5 going to ask you questions about the round table discussion 6 that is reported at the end of this document, just like I 7 indicated to you I was going to do. Would you like an 8 opportunity to review that before I ask you questions? 9 THE WITNESSi I know the basic premises here. 10 They did a bunch of studies on aromatic hydrocarbons. Now 11 mind you -- 12 MR. FEATHERSTONEt There is no question, Jack. 13 He asked you if you wanted to review it. You said no. 14 Wait for the question. We'll never get done. 15 0. (By Mr. Bradley) Would you turn to page 303 10 of that Exhibit? 17 THE WITNESS: 303? 18 MR. BRADLEYt Yes. 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 20 Q. In the first column there,, under Mr. F. R. 21 Hamer..." First of all, it indicates he's with General 22 Electric Company in York, Pennsylvania. Do you know Mr. 23 Hamer? 24 A. NO. 25 Q. Mr. Kamer indicates that, and I'm reading now - 68 CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027775 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 from the second full paragraph, "It is only one-and-a-half 2 years ago that we had in the neighborhood of fifty to sixty 3 men afflicted with various degrees of this acne about which 4 you all know. Eight or ten of them were very severely 5 afflicted - horrible specimens, as far as their skin 6 condition was concerned. One man died, and the diagnosis 7 may have attributed his death to exposure to Halowax vapors 8 but we are not sure of that. 9 A. That's not anything to do with what you're 10 talking about. 11 MR. FEATHERSTONE t Jack, he hasn't asked a 12 question yet. He read something from an article. 13 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) In your work at Monsanto, 14 were you aware of the conditions that Mr. Kamer reports 15 here, in this round table discussion? 16 A. No o 17 0. Okay. Lookingnow at page 304, on the bottom 10 right hand side? 19 A. Wait a minute. You read something on 303 . 20 MR. BRADLEY: Yes. Now Ljm-moving to 304, 21 under Dr. Lewis Schwartz, Medical Director, Dermatosis 22 Investigation, United States Public Health Service, New 23 York, New York. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Have you heardof Dr. Schwartz? - 69 CONCAMNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027776 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 A. I did. Schwartz wrote a book, a very good 2 book, by the way. I knew of him. 3 Q. Towards the end there of the coluran, on page 4 304 , and I'm going to read into the next page, it says, "if 5 there are any cases of acne or of this dermatitis occurring 6 in a plant where Halowax or the chlorinated naphthalene or 7 chlorinated diphenyls are used, then that shows that there B is sufficient concentration of these substances in the air 9 to cause plugging of the follocles and to cause a skin 10 condition. If there is sufficient concentration to do 11 that, there may be sufficient concentration to cause 12 systemic poisoning in the few people who are hypersenEitive 13 to the action of these hydrocarbcns. Now, when you were a 14 Monsanto employee, were you aware that in 1937 , that was 15 the opinion of Dr. Lewis Schwartz? 16 A. At the time, the most common word used in this 17 document is "if," right? 18 MR. PEATHERSTONEi Jack, the question is, 19 while you were an Monsanto employee, at any time were you 20 aware of that opinion of the doctor? rf 21 A. Yes, I was aware of this document. I was also 22 aware of the fact that Halowax and these other materials 23 are highly - cause skin eruptions of great problems. Any 24 time when one handles those materials, they handle the mi 25 with great care. That is not chlorinated biphenyls, - 70 COMCANNOH & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027777 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 period. We're talking about different things. 2 0. (By Mr. Bradley) Was the Halowax a 3 combination of chlorinated naphthalene and chlorinated 4 biphenyl? 5 A. No. Chlorinated naphthalene, 6 Q. And there was no chlorinated biphenyl or diphenyl in the Halowax? 8 A. I never saw an analysis, but it never came ? from a process that had biphenyls in it. 10 0. I'm reading now from page 283 of this Exhibit, 11 in the first column, roughly two-thirds of the way down. 12 "In the spring of 1936 , the Halowax Corporation, a division 13 of the Bakelite Corporation, called our attention to three 14 fatal cases of jaundice in workmen working with chlorinated 15 naphthalene and chlorinated diphenyls." Do you see that? 16 A. That's right. But the point is, it says 17 chlorinated naphthalenes. We know that will occur. That's 18 a common knowledge item in toxicology of aromatic 19 structured compounds. To put chlorinated diphenyls in 20 there is saying that might be because /it was in the issue. 21 We never saw that, nor did we ever have a case of a man in 22 Monsanto in all the years we manufactured it, ever went to 23 the hospital with any kind of problems connected with the 24 chlorinated diphenyls. 25 MR. BP.ADLEY: I move to strike the answer - 71 CONCAHNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027778 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 THE WITNESS: Go ahead and strike whatever ycu 2 damn please. It's true. 3 MR. FEATHERSTONEi Jack. 4 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) Does that refresh your 5 recollection on whether the Ralowax was a combination of 6 chlorinated naphthalenes and chlorinated diphenyls? 7 MR. FEATHERSTONEx Object to the form. 8 A. Ralowax is a product of naphthalenes. S Q. (By Mr. Bradley) Do you know whether, in this 10 study, Dr. Drinker studied the effects from exposure to 11 chlorinated diphenyl? 12 A. I suspect he died before they became an 13 extremely popular material. I don't know. 14 Q. Prior to 1955, are you aware of any other -- 15 Weil, let me ask it this way. Mr. Garrett, you tell me if 16 I've asked this question before. I don't want to ask ycu 17 the same question twice. Looking here, at Exhibit 438, 1C where you say that - I'm reading the whole sentence. 19 "While the Aroclors are not particularly hazardous from our 20 own experience, this is a difficult pc-pblem to define 21 because early literature claimed chlorinated biphenyls were 22 quite toxic materials by ingestion or inhalation.* What 23 was the early literature that you were referring to? 24 MR. FEATHERSTONE t Objection. Comraulative. 25 0. (By Mr. Bradley) Just this one document? - 72 CONCAHNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027779 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 A. No. There were others. 2 Q. (Ey Hr. Bradley) What others were there? 3 A. Well, Drinker's stuff got into books on 4 toxicology and on hygiene and it was based, again, on the 5 study with Halowax , only Halowax, which is the chlorinated 6 naphthalenes. Q. During the time of your employment with 8 Monsanto, were you ever aware of a report by Jones and 9 Alden in 1936 involving a man whose employment involved the 10 distillation of chi orobiphenyl? 11 A.. No. The distillation of chi or obi phenyl ? 12 Q. Were you aware of any reports in the early 13 '30s of up to twenty-three workers working in the 14 manufacturing process of chlorobiphenyl developed 11 sC chioracne? 16 A. I was aware of an incident where it occurred, 17 yes. 18 Q. Were you aware of any reports in the 1530s 19 that reported digestive disturbances, burning of the eyes 20 and impotence in men working with ch1orobipheny1e? 21 A. No. 22 q. I'm going to shew you Plaintiff's Exhibit 1373 23 and ask if you've seen that document before? 24 A. I've seen parts of it. I probably looked over 25 parts of it. 73 CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027780 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 Q. Would you turn to page thirty-two? At the 2 top, it says, "Early use of PCBs was for incorporation 3 along with chlornapthalenes into synthetic waxes.8 124 to 4 128. 5 A. Yes, I see that. 6 0. 124 to 128 refers to references. It says, "These waxes contain ten to twenty percent PCBs,* and gives 8 references to 124 to 126. 9 A Ye s. 1C Q. "And were used to insulate electrical wire and 11 cable." 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you know whether that's referring to the 14 Halowax cables? 15 A. That's Halowax. It's also the shipyard 16 problems that you may ultimately find in here that occurred 17 during World War II, were also Halowax, not PCBs. 18 0. When you worked for Monsanto, were you aware 19 of an animal experiment reported by Bennett, et al. in 1938 20 which found morphologic changes in th^ livers of two groups 21 of rats exposed to 0.57 miligrams per cubic M 22 concentration? 23 A. Meter. 24 Q. And also at 0.93 miligrams per cubic meter for 2 5 eight hours a day? - 74 CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027781 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 MR. FEATHERSTONE t Object to the form. 2 HR. BRADLEYi What *s wrong with the form? 3 MR. FEATHERSTONE: Just ask the question, Mr. 4 Bradley. If we get in a debate, we'll be here all night. 5 THE WITNESS: What was the question? 6 0. (By Mr. Bradley) The question is, when you 7 worked for Monsanto, were you aware of an animal experiment 8 repot ted by Bennett, et al. in 1938 which found morphologic 9 changes in the livers of two groups of rats exposed to 10 differing levels of chlorinated biphenyls? 11 MR. FEATHERSTONE: ' Object to the form. 12 TEE WITNESS: Ace you asking me if chlorinated 13 biphenyls are hepatic/renal toxins? 14 MR. BRADLEY: No. what I'm asking you, when 15 you work for Monsanto were you ever aware of a study by 15 Bennett in 1938 -- 17 A. No. 18 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) Okay. When you worked for 19 Monsanto, did you ever become aware of a report by 20 KcCloughlin in 1963 which reported th$t PCEs might be 21 ercbryotoxic, or have teratogenic effects? 22 MR. FEATHERSTONEi Object to the form. 23 A. Specifically, no. There have been an awful 24 lot of studies. I'm saying, I don't remember those. 25 G. (By Mr. Bradley) When you began your work - 75 CONCAMNON & JAEGER WATER PCB^SD0000027782 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 with Monsanto, were you aware of any research addressing 2 possible damage to the liver from exposure to FCBs? 3 A. Specifically, no. 4 Q. Let me ask it this way. Did you ever learn of 5 any research indicating that PCBs may cause damage to the 6 liver? 7 A. You're talking about an aromatic chlorinated 8 compound. If you could get it into the system, it will D cause problems, okay? They are surely hepatic/renal 10 toxins, and we know that. Everybody knows that, 11 Q. Well, when did you first learn that? 12 A. Probably the first time I went over to the 13 Krummrich plant, Mr. Wheeler or Dr. Kelly probably told 14 me . 15 Q. What documents did Monsanto give to its 16 custome re indicating that chlorinated aromatic hydrocarbons 17 may cau se damage to the liver? 18 A. It's sort of like there ain't a warning on it, 19 but whi skey will do the same thing. The point I'm trying 20 to make is, what are you talking about? 'Are you talking 21 about 1 ots of it? The guy spooning it into his mouth? The 22 problem is, how much are you talking about. Toxicity 23 represe nts a problem of concentrations. Certain areas - 24 All, - I repeat, all - chlorinated hydrocarbons under 25 certain conditions in the system are hepatic/renal toxins - 76 CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027783 (J Gi-i ir"J TL'K A I TKAiioCRiPT ICi'J 1 and would probably cause some difficulty in the liver , and 2 some of the liver function studies will indicate that. 3 Q. And what did -- Row did Monsanto give that 4 information to its customers? 5 A. Everybody knew it. Everybody knew it. 6 Everybody was told. it was in our documents. 7 Q. It was in your documents? 8 A. Certainly. 9 Q. .What documents was it in? 10 A. We had an Aroclor bulletin that we put it in 11 that said the material should not be inhaled and should net 12. be thus and so, and the basis for that was the fact that it 13 was, 1n fact, chlorinated hydrocarbon, and all chlorinated 14 hydrocarbon, if you can get them in the form of a gas or in 15 the form of something you can inhale - now, we couldn't do 16 it by ingestion because we tested that. The rats would 17 just kick it out. I wouldn't obsorb, in other words. 18 MR. FEATHERSTONEi Jack, the question is one 19 of passing along communications or warnings. 20 A. We passed it on to our customers and out f^ ` 21 plants knew it, too. 22 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) Did the Aroclor bulletins 23 say that exposure to these chlorinated aromatic 24 hydrocarbons could cause damage to the liver? 25 A. Exactly. - 77 - CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027784 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 G. Okay. 2 A. It says it could cause damage to the liver, 3 hepatic/renal toxins. It's in the literature. 4 Q. Do you know of any research relating PCEs to 5 causing malignant melanomas? 6 A. No. I know the re was some. I don't think the 7 literature was specific in that case. I don't think it 8 caused -- I don't think it demonstrated that. I don't 9 think it ever demonstrated that. We never saw them, any 10 operation in which any of our people were involved, or any 11 customer reported them to us. 12 Q. Do you know of any studies or research 13 indicating PCBs may cause brain tumors? 14 A. No. That's carrying it a little far. 15 Q, Do you know whether the United States 16 Environmental Protection Agency classifies PCBs as a 17 potential human carcinogen? 13 A. I don't know. If they do, it doesn't make a 19 hell a lot of difference to me. That's the craziest list 20 that ever existed. ,, . 21 Q. You disagree with the EPA? 22 A. I absolutely do, and with their premise and 23 with their standards. So does everybody else that has any 24 knowledge in the field. 25 HR. FEATHERSTONE; Jack, just answer the - 78 - CONCANHON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027785 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 que s tion. Do you know? Either you know or you don't know. 2 Let's not debate it. Let's get through it. 3 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) Do PCBs get absorbed through 4 the skin? 5 MR. FEATBERSTONEi Objection. Cummulative. 6 A. Not that we could determine. You're talking about a whole host of compounds e MR. FEATHERSTONE: Do you have anything more? 9 Do PCB gets absorbed through the skin was the question. 10 MR. BRADLEYt He answered. I'm satisfied. He 11 said no. 12 MR. PEATBERSTONE r Okay. 13 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) Were precautions in handling 14 chlorinated compounds issued in 1944 , do you know? 15 MP.. FEATHERSTONE s Objection. Absence of 16 foundation. 17 A. I don't know. I don't know. 18 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) Do you know whether 19 pathologic changes in animals exposed to commercial 20 chlorinated diphenyl were reported in/the 194 0s? 21 A. No, I do not. I was fighting the war at the time. 23 Q. Were you aware -- Well, let when ask it this 24 way. Do you know whether the toxicity of the vapors of 25 Aroclor 1242 and 1254 were documented as early as 1956? - 7g CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027786 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 A. No, I don't know one way or the other. 2 Q. Do you know whether -- Do you know what 3 polychlorinated dibenzylfurans are? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What are they? 6 A. They're a material that's similar to but not the same as dioxin and other chlorinated organic compounds 8 in the structure# in the ring struct rual materials. 9 Q. Are they considered to be quite toxic? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you know whether polychlorinated 12 dibenzyl furane have ever been shewn to be present in PCBs 13 manufactured by Monsanto? 14 A. No, I don't knowy 15 0. Do you know whether anyone has studied the 16 percentage of Americans that have PCBs in their adipose 17 tissue? 18 THE WITNESS: PCB, or chlorinated 19 hydrocarbons? 20 MR. PEATHERSTONE: Do you know if anyone has 21 studied the percentage of Americans - 22 A. Yes, they have studied it. 23 0. (By Mr. Bradley) What have the studies shown? 24 MR. PEATHERSTONEi Object to the question. 25 Hearsay, among other things. - 80 CCNCANNOU & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027787 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 A. All chlorinated hydrocarbons ultimately, if 2 you get them into the system, will seek the adipose pool, <.5 They will absorb into the oil materials of some of the 4 tissue. Now, if you're messing with compounds in enough 5 animals of different kinds and - different species, enough 6 time, enough facilities and enough people, you can probably 7 prove that any chlorinated hydrocarbon causes problems 0 connected with it's col lection in the adipose tissue of 2 beasts of any kind, 10 Q. Do you know whether ninety-nine percent of all 11 Americans reportedly have over five hundred parts per 12 billion PCBs in their adiposes tissue? 13 MR. FEATHERSTONS? Object to the form. 14 A. With all the -- 15 MR. FEATHERSTONE t Do you knew that? 16 A. No, I didn't know that. 17 0. (By Mr. Bradley) Do you know whether PCDs 18 have been found in human mother's milk? 12 THE WITNESS I Human what? 20 MR. BRADLEY: Mother's midk? 21 A. No, I don't know it. 22 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) Do you know whether PCBs 23 pass thrqu gh the mother's placenta to the fetus in human 24 beings? 25 A. No, I don't know that and I wouldn't believe - 81 - COMCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027788 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 it if somebody told me. 2 Q. Are you familiar with the term 3 biomagnification? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What is it? 6 A. It means the materialmagnifies in the system by - in a specific tissue in a specific system as the 8 material magnifies in concentration. D Q. Do you know whether bioroagnification occurs in 10 animals that -- Excuse me. Do you know whether 11 biomagnification occurs in the human food change, relative 12 to PCBg? 13 A. No. I've seen a lot of data, none of which 14 does any good, as far as I'm concerned, or shows anything. 15 Q. Do you know whetherchangesin liver chemistry 16 have been observed in PCB exposed humans? 17 THE WITNESS : Change in what? 18 MR. BRADLEY: Liver chemistry. 19 A o No. 20 Q. (By Mr. Bradl ey) Do you ^know whether PCBs can 2 ^ work synergistically with other compounds by impairing the 22 immune system? 23 A. No. 24 Q. All right. 25 A. And I don't believe it anyway. - 82 CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027789 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 MR. FEATHERSTONE: Jack, just answer yes or 2 no. We're not going to debate this here. We'll debate it 3 later. 4 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) Do you know whether 5 statistically significant high rates of skin cancer among 6 people exposed to PCBs have been reported? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Do you know whether, in 1947, the literature 9 reported that repeated exposure to PCB vapor may produce 10 internal bodily injury which may be disabling or could be 11 fatal? 12 THE WITNESS: That's a stupid question. 13 MR. FEATHERSTONE: Jack. 14 A. But the answer is, I don't know. The question 15 don't make any sense. 16 MR. FEATHERSTONE: Then the answer is, "I 17 don't know," or "No." Don't argue, 18 MR. BRADLEY: Would you read back the 19 question? 20 (whereupon, the reporter propounded previous question.) 21 A. No. 22 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) Do you know whether a skin 23 disease called chloracne could be an indication of a more 24 serious systemic injury if exposure to PCBs was allowed to 25 continue? - 83 - CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027790 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 A. There never was any chloracne indicated with 2 PCBc in our ope rations, ever. 3 Q* Okay. Were you ever informed in the 1970s 4 that Westingbouse employees indicated that there is 5 sufficient evidence that PCBs can be dilatorious to the 6 health of animal and human life and that the risk of 7 ignoring the evidence that does exist was inappropriate for 8 Westinghouse? 9 HR. FEATHERSTONS: Well, the question is, have 10 you ever heard that Westinghouse employees had made that 11 statement. 12 A. No. 13 MR. FEATHER5TONE: All right. 14 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) Were you told in the 1970s 15 that Westinghouse employees believe there is now so much 16 PCS in drums in the ground, in the river and ocean beds 17 that unless steps are taken to reduce the source of PCD IB contamination, the burden in the environment will have no 19 chance of decreasing? 20 MR, FEATHERSTONE: Were you -ever told that, 21 that Westinghouse employees -- 22 A. No 23 MR. FEATHERSTONE t All right. 24 A. I never communicated with Westinghouse 25 employees . - 34 CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027791 COMPUTER ATDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) Do you know what a furan is? 2 A. Yes. 3 0. What is a furan? 4 A. A fur an is a ring compound, organic ring 5 compound. 6 Q. Are furans one of themost extreme toxicities 7 of any compound since the beginning of chemistry? S A. No. 9 Q. Would one once of furansbe enough to poison 10 ten thousand people? 11 MR. FEATHERSTONE: Objection. No shoving of 12 foundation. 13 A. I have no idea. 14 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) I take it, if I was able to 15 show a transcript that Monsantos medical director, Dr. 16 Emmett Kelly, stated that furans have one of the most 17 extreme toxicities of any compound since the beginning of 18 chemistry, that you would disagree with that? 19 MR. FEATHERSTONE j Object to the form of the 20 question. ` 21 A. How did Kelly get to that? My answer is, if 22 you're talking about furans, you've got to be talking about 23 a whole host of furans. 24 MR. FEATHERSTONE* No. The question is, if he 25 can do something like what he said, you would disagree with - 85 - CONCANNOM 4 JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027792 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPT 1015 1 it? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) Were you part of the group 4 that determined that Monsanto customers would have to enter 5 into indemnification agreements with Monsanto for Monsanto 6 to continue selling PCBs? 7 A. Heavens, no. 8 Q. Did Monsanto require its customers to enter 9 into an indemnification agreement before Monsanto would 10 continue selling them PCBs? 11 MR. FEATHERSTONE: Object to the form of the 12 question. 13 A. I do not now. 14 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) Do you knowwhetherMonsanto 15 entered into any indemnification agreements with any of its 16 customers regarding products manufactured by Monsanto that 17 contained PCBs? IS A. NO. 19 Q. Were you aware of a 1966 study from Sweden 20 where a Swedish scientist found PCBs dh the hair of his 21 family and of himself? 22 MR. FEATHER5T0NEt Object to the form of the 23 question. 24 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) Areyou familiar with a 25 Swedish researcher named Jensen? - 86 CONCAIJNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027793 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 A. Yes. 2 0. Are you familiar with any of the work that he 3 published in the 1960s? 4 A Yes o 5 Q. Did any of his work that was published have to 6 do with PCBs? A. Yes. 8 Q. Did Dr, Jensen -- S A. Jensen. 10 Q. Jensen. Did Dr, Jensen report that he was 11 finding PCBs in the hair of hie family? 12 A. Dr, Jensen reported a lot of things, some of 13 which were not scientifically proven. 14 MR. FEATHERSTONE: Did he report that? 15 A, I don't know. 16 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) Did Dr, Jensen report 17 finding PCBs throughout the environment? 18 MR. FEATHBRSTONS! Object to the form. 19 A. In Sweden, I suppose. I don't know. 20 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) Did Dr, Jensen report 21 finding PCBs anywhere? 22 A Yea 0 23 q. Where did he report finding PCBs? 24 A. In sea life. 25 0. Seal life? - 87 COMCANNOH k JAEGER WAfER- PCB"-SD0C)0b027794 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 A. Sea life. In certain see critters. 2 Q. And was Dr. Jensen's report published in 1966 3 or thereabouts? 4 A. Some of his reports. He wrote a number of 5 papers. 6 Q. Well, the one having to do with finding PCBs in sea life. Was that around the raid '60s? 8 MR, FEATHERSTONEi Object to the form of the 9 question. 10 A. Probably# yea. I don't know exactly. I don't 11 know. It was somewhere in that period of time. 12 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) Was the report written by Dr. 13 Jensen regarding the location# finding of PCBs in sea life# 14 published around the middle of 1960? 15 A. I don't know. It probably was. 16 Q. Do you know whether you reviewed Dr. Jensen's 17 report in the year that it was published? 18 A. I doubt it but I might have. My boss went 19 over there and talked to Jensen quite often. 20 Q, Do you know whether, aft/ your boss went and 21 spoke with Professor Jensen Monsanto set a goal of 22 increasing its PCB sales? 23 A. No. lf they did that, nobody that I know of 24 knew it for that reason. 25 MR. BRADLEY: Excuse me. - 83 COHCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027795 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCKIPTIOR 1 (Whereupon, a five minute recess was taken.) 2 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) I `ra going to show you 3 Plaintiff's Exhibit 1473 and ask you to review that 4 document. 5 MR. BRADLEYi I don't have a copy. 6 THE WITNESS t Yes? 7 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) Have you seen that document 8 before? 9 A. Yes. * 10 Q. What io the document? 11 A. It's a manufacturing operation standard 12 practice process setup for Aroclor 13 Q. Was that something that was developed by 14 Monsanto1s medical department? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Who developed it? 17 A. Manufacturing. 1G Q. And is that a fair and accurate copy of the 19 document it purports to be? 20 A, As far as I can see, yes, 21 Q. Is that the sort of document you maintained in 22 your files at Monsanto? 23 A. I doubt it but I might have. It wasn't sent 24 to us, I don't think. I can't see it. 25 0. Was it the kind of document you'd expect - 89 CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027796 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 manufacturing to maintain in its files? 2 THE WITNESS: Their files? 3 MR. BRADLEYi Yes. 4 A. If manufacturing detects problems in either 5 pi ant, in our plant at Queeny or Krummrich, any changes in 6 the quality of product, any changes in the volume, any 7 changes in the conversion rates, those things would all be 8 there and what was recommended to cure them. 9 Q. Do the Aroclors manufactured by Monsanto 10 biodegrade? 11 A. Some. 12 Q. Which ones biodegrade andwhich ones don't? 13 MR. FEATHERSTONE: Object to the absence of 14 personal knowledge. 15 A. The lesser ones do, some. IS Q. (By Mr. Bradley) The lesserchlorinated 17 Aroclors? 13 A. Some. 19 Q. Some of the lesser chlorinated. Do you know 20 which ones of the lesser chlorinated Aroclors biodegrade? 21 A. No. We did some work on checking what 22 happened in s trearns with them. 23 Q. Do you know whether 1221 biodegrades? 24 A. Probably. 25 C. What's the next less chlorinated Aroclor? - 90 COHCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027797 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 A. 34 I believe, but I'mnot sure. 1232. 2 Q. And does it biodegrade? 3 A. In part. 4 Q. And what's the next least chlorinated Aroclor? 5 THE WITNESS t The most chlorinated? 6 MR. BRADLEY j The next least chlorinated * 7 A. 1221, and there's a 12 -- Used to be a 1210 8 or 1214, or something like that. The lower two numbers 9 mean percent, the percent if chlorination. 10 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) Did1242 biodegrade? 11 A. In part. 12 MR. FEATHERSTONE t Object to the absence of 13 foundation. 14 Q. (Ey Mr. Bradley) And how do you know that 15 1242 biodegrades in part? 16 MR. FEATHERSTONE: Same objections 17 A. We tracked it in a flowing stream. 16 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) And what work did you do to 19 track it? 20 A. Tested it. . 21 Q. What year did you test it? 22 A. I haven't the foggiest. 23 Q. Was it in the 1970s? 24 A. Probably in the '70s. 25 Q. As part of your tracking, did you take - 91 - CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027798 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 samples? 2 A. Yes. Many of them, 3 0. And what did you do with the samples? 4 A. Tested them. 5 Q. To determine whether theybiodegraded? 6 A. Tested the isomeric spread, how many 1244 were there, how many 1221 were there, and these represented Dv specific chlorinated isomers of polychlorinated biphenyl. n 0. On the 1221, 1242 , 1260 , what does the "12" 10 represent? 11 A. It was our term used many years ago and was 12 carried through as the Aroclor material. All of them were 13 12s. That was biphenyl chlorinated. Any of the other 14 chlorinated structures would have had, would have been a 15 different number. 16 Q. And the second number after the 12 is the 17 percentage of chlorine? 13 A, Roughly, the percentage of total chlorinated 19 material in the material. 20 Q, Did Monsanto ever manufacture chlorinated 21 biphenyl that had the number 1016? 22 A. Mot to my knowledge, 23 Q. Did Monsanto ever manufacture a product 24 containing PCBs that had the number 1016? 25 A. Not to my knowledge. I don't remember, I - 92 CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027799 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 just don't know. 2 Q. Do you know whether Monsanto ever warned its 3 customers that they should inform equipment users of 4 transformers and capacitors of the potential environmental 5 contamination problems with PCBs? 6 A. We dealt directly with the manufacturers of 7 the products that used them and they were given the whole 8 story we had. 9 Q. Did Monsanto ever recommend, though, to 10 General Electric that General Electric notify the people 11 buying transformers and capacitors from General Electric of 12 the potential environmental contamination problems 13 associated with PCBs? 14 A. I do not know. 15 Q. Did Monsanto ever inform Westinghouse that 16 vjectinghouse should notify the purchasers of its 17 transformers and capacitors of the potential environmental 13 contamination problems associated with PCBs? 19 A. I don't think there is any doubt they did 20 because the people dealt with us. We /dealt with GE, 21 Westinghouse and industrial hygiene people and medical 22 people. 23 Q. So Monsanto told Westinghouse to tell those 24 folks that buy Westinghouse -- 25 A. We told them the whole story. - 93 CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027800 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCA /TIG.i 1 Q. Let me finish ray question. I don't want to 2 argue with you. I want you to answer my question, though. 3 Monsanto told Westinghouse to tell purchasers of 4 Westinghouse transformers and capacitors that contained 5 PCBs about the potential environmental contamination 6 problems with PCBs? A. I don't think that any -- I dealt with GE 8 and some of those people, myself. They knew all we knew. 9 Q. Well, my question, though, is whether -- 10 A. And your specific question is part of that 11 answer. They knew all we knew, and they knew it when we Xi t**> knew it and when we found it out. 13 Q. Well, did Monsanto tell Westinghouse to tell 14 what it knew to the people who were buying Westinghouse 15 products? 16 A. I told people - 17 MR. FEATHERSTONE: Jack, his question is, did IO Monsanto tell Westinghouse to tel 1 the Westinghouse 19 customer s. 20 A. I don't know. r, 21 MR. FEATHERSTONES All right. 22 MR, BRADLEY: I have nothing fur the r . 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION 24 QUESTIONS BY MR. FEATHERSTONE; 2 5 Q. Jack, when did you retire from Monsanto? - 94 - COtJCANNOtl & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027801 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 A. God. You know, it's funny aoout memory. it 2 had to have been five years ago, four years ago. 3 Q. Okay. And you've used the term "rotating 4 bidding" m your testimony with regard to the Krummrich 5 plant? 6 A. Yes. 7 C. What does that mean? 8 A. Every union employee in the plant was allowed S to bid on any other job in the plant that existed in any cf 10 the plants for which bidding vac practiced, which meant 11 that any Monsanto employee in the Krumrarich plant, in the 12 hourly class, could bid into the PCB department if they had 13 sufficient seniority, okay? Now, the PCB department was 14 such a good department to work in that the people that 15 worked there were so old, that it very rarely occurred 16 because you'd become a sixty year old man who could work 17 until he was sixty-five by Monsanto standards. 18 0. Let me ask you this question. What, if 19 anything, did the practice of rotating bidding have to do 20 with the memorandum that you sent to fe,he-Aroclor department 21 regarding lunches, storage of lunches in the Aroclor 22 department? 23 MR. BRADLEY: Before you answer, I object to 24 the form of the question because it is my memory that I 25 moved to strike an answer that I claimed was not - 95 CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027802 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 responsive, where he talked about rotating bidding. So I 2 object to the form of the question to the extent the Court 3 grants my motion to strike his answer. 4 MR. FEATHERSTONE* Okay. 5 Q. (By Mr. Featherstone) What, if anything - 6 Mow that you defined rotating bidding in response to my 7 question, what, if anything , did that practice have to do 8 with your memorandum which Mr. Bradley showed you regarding 9 storage of lunches in that Aroclor department at Kruminrich? 10 A. Any worker in the plant could work in the 11 Aroclor department any time they held biddings. 12 MR. FEATHERSTONE: Held? 13 A. Held them. People retired, people died, 14 people got other jobs. So they bid openings, They held 15 biddings. People bid for the jobs, If they had sufficient 1C seniorty, they got the job. 17 Q. (By Mr. Bradley) Now, you also talked about 18 clothing policy - that is, giving laundry, clothing to the 19 workers. You also mentioned a union contract. What, if 20 anything, did the union contract at the Krummrich plant 21 have to do with laundered clothing at -- 22 MR. BRADLEY: Object to the form of the 23 question. 24 A. They wanted everybody to get clothing in the 25 plant, and it ultimately occurred. First, we wanted only - 96 COIJCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027803 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION' 1 certain -- We said it was required in only certain plants. 2 Q. (By Mr. Peatherstone) All right. You cay at 3 first, it was required in certain departments. Was that 4 before the union contract? 5 MR. BRADLEYi Object to the form of the 6 question. 7 A. That was the union contract. We stipulated 8 who had clothing and the union made them give it to 9 everybody that covered our stipulations. 10 Q. (By Mr. Featherstone) All right. Now, before 11 the union contract, did Monsanto have a policy of requiring 12 laundered clothing for workers in the Aroclor department at 13 the Krummrich pi ant? 14 A. Yes. 15 MR. PEATHERSTONE j No further questions. 16 Thank you. 17 MR. BRADLEY? Nothing. Thank you. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 - 97 CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027804 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 2 3 4 . ft) toy_____________ ____ , A , D . f 19_ 5 6 7 Notary Public 8 Notary Public within and for the State of 9 10 DAY OF 11 , A. Do, 19 ekST~. 12 13 NOTARY PUBLIC STATE OF MISSOURI ST. LOUIS COUNTY 14 HYOmsSION EXP. JAN. 1S.1OT5 Y\MoqA^ u 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 - 98 - CONCANMON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027805 C0MFU7CR AIDED TRANSCRI PT !. ON 1 STATE OF MISSOURI ) ) S3 2 CODUTY OF ST. LOUIS ) 3 I, John T. Concannon, a Notary Public within and for 4 the State of Missouri, duly coonu asioned, qualified and 5 authorized to administer oaths and to take and certify to 6 depositions, do hereby certify that pursuant to Notice in 7 the civil cause now pending and undetermined in the e District Court of the United States, within and for the 9 District cf Nevada, entitled NEVADA POWER COMPANY 10 Plaintiff, -vs- MONSANTO COMPANY, t el., Defendants, to be 11 used in the trial of said cause in said Court, I was 12 attended at the law offices of Messrs. Busch & Eppenber ge r, 1 ** 100 N. Broadway, Suite 1300, in the City of St. Louis, 14 State of Missouri, by Ralph A. Bradley, attorney fot the 15 Plaintiff; by Bruce A. Featherstone, attorney fot the 15 Defendant, Monsanto Company; by Laurie Basch, attornty for 17 the Defendant, Westrnghouse; and by J. COLEMAN WEBER, the 18 witness, in said office on March 16, 1993. 19 The said witness, JACK GARRETT, being of sound mind 20 and being by me first carefully examinedand duly cautioned 21 and sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth and nothing 22 but the truth in the case aforesaid, thereupon testified as 23 is shown in the foregoing transcript, said tec tiir.ony being 24 by me reported in shorthand and caused to be transcribed *4 Cv into typewriting, and that the foregoing pagec correctly - 99 CONCANNON S* JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027806 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 net out the testimony of the aforementioned witness, JACK 2 GARRETT, together with the questions propounded by counsel 3 and the remarks and objections of counsel thereto, and is 4 in all respects a full, true and complete transcript of the 5 questions propounded to and the answers given by said 6 witness*! and that said testimony, so transcribed, was 7 subscribed to by the witness on the ___ ____day of e _____ ____ ___ ___ _____ ___, A, D,, 1993. 9 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not of counsel nor 1C attorney for any of the parties to said suit, nor related, li nor interested in any of the parties or their attorneys. 12 WITNESS MY RAND and Notarial Seal, given this _______ 13 day of _____ _________ _____, A. D., 1993, at St. Louie, Missouri. 14 NY COMMISSION EXPIRES SEPTEMBER 12, 1994 15 10 17 JOHN~T. CONCANNON, 1C Notary Public, within and for the State of Missouri ID 20 21 22 23 24 25 - 100 CONCANMON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027807 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 2 April 14 , 1993 3 4 5 Bruce A. Feathe rstone, Esq. Kirkland & Ellis 6 1999 Broadway - Ste. 4000 Denver, Colorado 80202 7 8 Re : Nevada Powe r Company -vMonsanto Company, et al. 9 Dear Mr. Featherstone: 10 This letter, incorporated as the last page of Mr. 11 Garrett's deposition, taken on March 16 , 1993 , will serve as notice to you that his testimony is now ready for 12 reading and signing of same. You will recall you indicated a preference for him reading his deposition, rather than 13 waiving signature. 14 Enclosed please find the original signature page of Mr. Garrett's deposition, along with an eratta sheet. 15 Please have Mr. Weber read and sign his deposition and return the original signature page to me. I will then 16 return the signature page to the original transcript, and notify Mr. Bradley of any corrections the witness may have 17 made. 18 Thank you for your cooperation in this regard. 19 20 21 22 Concannon & Jaeger 23 General Court Reporters 705 Olive Street - Ste. 604 24 St. Louis, Missouri 63101 25 JTC:md - 101 - CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000027808