Document vBge0596mJ915EpwgpMG71KGw

! 1 STATE OF ILLINOIS ) 2 ) SS: -- 3 COUNTY OF C O 0 K ) 4 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS 5 COUNTY DEPARTMENT - LAW DIVISION 6 BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE 7 CITY OF CHICAGO, ) 8 Plaintiff, 9 vs . ) No. 92 L 9934 10 A, C & S, INC., et al. , 11 Defendants 12 ) 13 EVANSTON COMMUNITY CONSOLIDATED) 14 SCHOOL DISTRICT NO. 65, et al.,) 15 Plaintiff, ) 16 vs. ) No. 92 L 9933 17 A, C & S, INC., et al.. 18 Defendants. 19 20 The deposition of Mark Van Baalen 21 June 16, 1995 22 9:30 a.m. 23 r 24 VVM .,^WoCfc., <zffozn&exy and c^f-\\ociatc fjna. (2iicayo, Dttinoi.% (312) 782-6087 UCAREF00021451 2 1 BOARD OF EDUCATION OF HIGH ) 2 SCHOOL DISTRICT NO. 211, et al., ) 3 Plaintiff, ) 4 vs. ) No. 92 L 9932 5 ABITIBI ASBESTOS MINING CO., ) 6 LTD., et al., ) 7 Defendants. ) 8 9 The deposition of MARK VAN BAALEN, 10 called for examination, taken pursuant to the 11 provisions of the Code of Civil Procedure and the 12 Rules of the Supreme Court of the State of Illinois 13 pertaining to the taking of depositions for the 14 purpose of discovery, taken before JOANNE H. 15 RICHTER, a Notary Public within and for the County 16 of Cook, State of Illinois, and a Certified 17 Shorthand Reporter of said state, at 55 West Monroe 18 Street, Chicago, Illinois, on the 16th day of June, 19 A.D. 1995, at 9:30 a.m. 20 21 22 23 24 O/VoCft, <zf^Oi.tnre.%c} and e^fiioaiatzi, One. Cfiuta^o, fJCtinoL* (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021452 TNrfML WOLFE, ROSENBERG & ASSOCIATES, INC. CERTIFIED & REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS 188 WEST RANDOLPH STREET CHICAGO. ILLINOIS 606Ot (312) 782-8087 September 13, 1995 GREITZER A LOCKS 1500 WALNUT STREET 22ND FLOOR PHILADELPHIA, PA 19102 Attn: JOSEPH GREITZER Re: BOARD OF EDUCATION OF CITY OF CHICAGO -VS- A, C & S, INC, ET AL Deposition of: MARK VAN BAALEN Taken on: 06/16/95 #:ear Counsel: nclosed please find the executed signature page and errata sheet(s) for the deposition listed above. Very truly yours. WOLFE, ROSENBERG A ASSOCIATES, INC. KEVIN J. GREENWOOD EDWARD F. RYAN JAMES G. BONEBRAKE UCAREF00021453 199 1 STATE OF ILLINOIS ) 2 ) SS: 3 COUNTY OF C 0 0 K ) 4 IN THB CIRCUIT COURT OF COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS 5 COUNTY DEPARTMENT - LAW DIVISION 6 BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE } 7 CITY OF CHICAGO, et al., ) 8 Plaintiffs, ) NO. 92 L 9934 9 vs. ) No. 92 L 9933 10 C & S, INC., et al., ) NO. 92 L 9932 11 Defendants. ) 12 I hereby certify that I have read the 13 foregoing transcript of my deposition given at the 14 time and place aforesaid, consisting of Pages 1 to 15 198, inclusive, and I do again subscribe and make 16 oath that the same is a true, correct and complete 17 transcript of my deposition so given as aforesaid, 18 and includes changes, if any, so made by me. 19 20 SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN JTO 21 22 23 24 Notary Public L ifUorz~ K- Lstfheo % ^VoCjt, <^oitrdtx^ and c^/fiujciala, fjnc. /'/T;,-- m 75.onnT UCAREF00021454 I desire to make the following changes to my deposition: INLINE: _[_ PAGE NO. H++ : THofiS Ml CHANGE DESIRED GfcMT ;M6T6. 10,Oco REASON FOR CHANGE: flliT H/W&T\t HiCRok)s IN i\ P, LINE : iZ CHANGE DESIREDLO S bfiTOS (Zfie&ki REASON FOR CHANGE: NiS^PLL6> NftNB ^LINE: l(? f CHANGE DESIRED: "Mic<<on&TE>d" sHoviD 66 " MoiQo CrifLQMfiTotZ'________________ REASON FOR CHANGE: tQOt& f UlINE: _l ? CHANGE DESIRED: " Tt&T" SnkHJij) 66 "06TS'C^oK" REASON FOR CHANCE :/ N ft IZ f jfJO^D / Aj / )- P\ I * LINE: Ii--------------------------------------------------- CHANGE DESIRED fjl\)Q ) H ^ ft ^ ) fiOK)QM Y fisfuPiCb iDiThi "Am tumit" REASON FOR CHANGE:_ MkoKiC-j ______________________________ UCAREF00021455 I desire to make the following changes to ray deposition: . 4/ PAGE NO ^LINE: tD CHANGE DESIRED "/NCUJOfeO "iNclvosq" to T'ST)fO& fog" REASON FOR CHANGE CHANGE DESIRED; & HfiMbB ________________"fiSubO 1M "ftbUZD to _________________ REASON FOR CHANGEON if T&O LINE: _____ CHANGE DESIRED: REASON FOR CHANGE: LINE: _____ CHANGE DESIRED: REASON FOR CHANGE: LINE: _____ CHANGE DESIRED: REASON.FOR CHANGE: UCAREF00021456 3 PRESENT: 2 HAGER & SIEGEL, 3 (55 West Monroe Street, 4 Chicago, Illinois 60603), by: 5 MR. JAMES BONEBRAKE, 6 appeared on behalf of Plaintiffs in 7 Evanston Township 207 and Township 211; 8 GREITZER & LOCKS, 9 (1500 Walnut Street, 22nd Floor, 10 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102), by: 11 MR. JOSEPH GREITZER, 12 appeared on behalf of Plaintiff Chicago 13 Board of Education and Plaintiffs 14 in 92 L 9933; 15 BURKE, WEAVER & PRELL, . 16 (55 West Monroe Street, 17 Chicago, Illinois 60603), by: 18 MR. EDWARD F. RYAN, 19 appeared on behalf of Union Carbide 20 Corp.; 21 22 23 24 WM *~WoCfz, <if^oen&vu} and c^f-iioeiatzi, (Jna. Ckuajo, Uttinoli (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021457 4 1 PRESENT: (Continued) 2 JOHNSON & BELL, LTD., 3 (222 North LaSalle Street, Suite 2200, 4 Chicago, Illinois 60601), by: 5 MR. KEVIN J. GREENWOOD, 6 appeared on behalf of Conwed 7 . Corporation; 8 BUTLER, RUBIN, SALTARELLI & BOYD, 9 (Three First National Plaza, 10 Chicago, Illinois 60602), by: 11 MR. LOUIS J. AURICHIO, 12 appeared on behalf of United States 13 Gypsum Company. 14 15 REPORTED BY: JOANNE H. RICHTER, 16 C.S.R. No. 84-2082. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WWi <Wofe, <zffoznrtxej and <zrf-iocia.tts, Ona. Chicago, QttinoU (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021458 5 1 (WHEREUPON, the witness was duly 2 sworn.) 3 MARK VAN BAALEN, 4 called as a witness herein, having been first duly 5 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 6 EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. GREITZER: 8 Q. Good morning. Is it Mr. Van Baalen? 9 A. Doctor. 10 Q. Is it Doctor, now? The dissertation has 11 been - 12 A. Completed. 13 Q. -- completed? 14 A. And degree awarded. 15 Q. When was that? 16 A. Commencement was June 8th. 17 Q. Of this year? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Congratulations. 20 A. Thank you. I usually say my name Van 21 Baalen, instead of Van Baalen, although I don't 22 object. 23 Q. Okay. Dr. Van Baalen? 24 A. I don't consider it an insult Van WW ,a ^WoCfe, <zfi?oe.nljt\j and c^fi.oaiatc.i. One. Cfucaqo, {JCClnoU (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021459 6 1 Baalen. 2 Q. Or without the Doctor? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. Have you ever had your deposition taken 5 before? 6 A. No, this is my first time. 7 Q. Couple of ground rules. As you can see, 8 the court reporter is here taking everything down, 9 so to make her job easier and the record read a 10 little cleaner, if you would wait for me to ask my 11 question before you answer, that will make the 12 record cleaner. And it is hard for her to take 13 down two people at the same time. All right? 14 A. All right. 15 Q. In addition, you need to give verbal 16 responses, shaking of the head or uh-uh or uh-huh 17 don't transcribe very well. Do you understand that 18 one? 19 A. Sure. 20 Q. If you are not sure of what I am asking 21 you or you don't understand the question, feel free 22 to ask me to restate it. I am happy to do it. 23 Also I see that you are a metamorphic 24 petrologist? WW/A ^WoCfe, and c^/f-oeiaii, One. (Ikicago, {Jttinoli (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021460 7 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. If there are certain terms that you use 3 that you think would be helpful to spell for the 4 court reporter and for us, I know the court 5 reporter and I spoke that we would both appreciate 6 that. 7 A. I will do that. 8 Q. It is an area that I thinkmoat of us 9 are not familiar with, although I did read your 10 dissertation last night to get some idea, but I am 11 still not familiar with it. 12 If you want to take a break at any time, 13 let us know, feel free to take a break, all right? 14 A. Okay. 15 Q. When were you contacted initially 16 regarding this litigation? 17 A. You mean the present case? 18 Q. This present case. 19 A. Late winter or early spring ofthis 20 year. 21 Q. So it would have been '94, '95, end of 22 ' 94? 23 A. No, it was in '95, it was late winter. 24 It was after the turn of the year, but I don't WWi ^WoCfz, aftoi&n&EXCj ami czrf-uoeiatei, One. C&lcatjo, {JCClnol* # (312) 7Q2-80B7 UCAREF00021461 8 1 remember the exact time. 2 Q. Who contacted you? 3 A. Allen Gerson. 4 Q. Is Mr. Gerson an attorney? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Do you know whether he represents Union 7 Carbide? 8 A. I believe he does. 9 Q. Had you ever been contacted by Mr. 10 Gerson before late winter of 1995 regarding 11 testimony or reports for Union Carbide? 12 A. Are you asking about this case or about 13 other cases? 14 Q. Now I am asking about any cases. 15 A. The answer is yes, about previous cases. 16 Q. When was the first time you were ever 17 contacted by Mr. Gerson or somebody on behalf of 18 Union Carbide regarding asbestos litigation? 19 A. It was sometime after 1990, and before 20 1993 . 21 Q. Who would that have been that contacted 22 you? 23 A. Allen Gerson. 24 Q. Do you know how Mr. Gerson came in VW/A ^WoCft, and c^fiiociatzi, dJnc. (Ihicayo, Ottinal*. (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021462 9 1 contact with you? 2 A. Yes, I do. 3 Q. How was that? 4 A. He was given my name by John Myers. 5 Q. Who is Mr. Myers? 6 A. John Myers is the president of KCAC 7 Asbestos Company in California. 8 Q. Is that KCAC, is that in operating 9 asbestos mine in, I guess it is, New Idria? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. And that's where the information from 12 your dissertation was obtained? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. Had you been working with or through Mr. 15 Myers in the preparation of your dissertation? 16 A. No. 17 Q. When did you first have -- Did you ever 18 have any contact with Mr. Myers? 19 A. I have met him, yes. 20 Q. When would you have met Mr. Myers? 21 A. I would have met him in 1989. 22 Q. What were the circumstances of meeting 23 Mr. Myers? 24 A. I was beginning my field research in the WM ,*l/VoCjt, <zf^oi.tnrvuj and c^f-tzoeiatzi One. Ckuc^o. OltinoU (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021463 10 1 New Idria district and I wished to use the access 2 road to the KCAC mine. I called the mine 3 superintendent, and he said this could be done, but 4 that I should come to headquarters because he 5 wanted to meet me personally. So I met him. 6 He gave me permission to use the road, 7 and while I was there he said, "I would like to 8 introduce you to the president of our company." 9 Q. Other than being introduced to Mr. 10 Myers, did you have any other contact with him 11 after that? 12 A. He called me at some point after this, 13 and asked if I would be willing to talk with Mr. 14 Gerson of Union Carbide. 15 Q. Did Mr. Myers tell you what it was that 16 Mr. Gerson and Union Carbide wanted to speak with 17 you about? 18 A. Only that it concerned asbestos. 19 Q. How long after Mr. Myers informed you 20 that Mr. Gerson might want to speak with you did 21 you speak with Mr. Gerson? 22 A. I don't remember precisely. I expect 23 that it was within a month of that time. 24 Q. Do you remember your first contact with ^WoCft, .,and czrfieociatei (Jne. Ckica^o, OttinqU (312)782-8087 U CAREF00021464 11 1 Mr. Gerson? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And how was that contact made? 4 A. He called me on the telephone. 5 Q. And you are living in Cambridge right 6 now? 7 A. No. i 8 Q. Where do you live now? 9 A. Littleton, Massachusetts. 10 Q. How far from Cambridge is that? 11 A. 25 miles. 12 Q. What did Mr. Gerson request of you? 13 A. He asked if I would be willing to 14 consult with some of his colleagues on matters 15 relating to asbestos, and the New Idria district. 16 Q. Did you agree to do that? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. After that initial conversation, up 19 until, I guess, up until today, how often have you 20 had contact with Mr. Gerson or somebody from Union 21 Carbide? 22 A. You have asked two questions. 23 Q. Okay. After your first telephone 24 contact with Mr. Gerson, were your responsibilities WM .,cffoM.n&e.'U] and cz/f-aociate-i One. dfiicago, dCtlnal* # (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021465 12 1 spelled out regarding consultation at that time? 2 A. No. 3 Q. When were your responsibilities first 4 spelled out to you regarding your consultation work 5 for Union Carbide? 6 A. Mr. Gerson, as I said before, asked if I 7 would be willing to consult with some of his 8 collegues on these matters, and I subsequently 9 received a telephone call from two of his 10 colleagues. 11 Q. And who would they have been? 12 A. These were attorneys in Texas, and one 13 of them was named Miltenberger, and the other I 14 can't remember. 15 Q. Was the other attorney also a lawyer in 16 Texas? 17 A. Yes, they were both in Texas. 18 Q. Were they with the same law firm? 19 A. No, they were not. John Bissell, 20 B-i-s-s-e-1-1. 21 Q. Is it your understanding that Mr. Berger 22 and Mr. Bissell represented Union Carbide? 23 A. Miltenberger. 24 Q. I said Mr. Milton Berger. \VM ^WoCft, ed^oi&n&zuj and <=/fs.ocLatzi, 0n&. Ckicayo, OttinoU (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021466 13 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Is it your understanding that Mr. BergerJ 3 and Mr. Bissell represented Union Carbide? 4 A. I believed so. That relationship was 5 never completely clear to me. 6 Q. Was it Mr. Berger and Mr. Bissell that 7 spelled out what your responsibilities would be 8 with regard to consulting for Union Carbide? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And howlong after you spoke with Mr. 11 Gerson did you speak with Berger and Bissell 12 regarding responsibilities? 13 A. Probably within aweek orperhaps two 14 weeks. 15 Q. What was your understanding at that time 16 of what your job would be? 17 A. My job was to educate these two 18 gentlemen in a general way about the New idria 19 district, and about the properties of asbestos 20 mined there. 21 Q. How did you go about educating Mr. 22 Berger and Mr. Bissell? 23 A. Miltenberger, Louis Miltenberger. 24 Q. I apologize. Mr. Miltenberger. How did \VM ezffoi.zn&e.'Uj and czrfisoeiates., {Jna. dftlccujo, dJtlinoh (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021467 14 1 you educate Mr. Miltenberger and Mr. Bissell? 2 A. They came and paid a visit to me in my 3 lab at Harvard, and we spent a day together; and I 4 explained to them the geological history and origin 5 of the New Idria district. Showed them maps, that 6 sort of thing. 7 Q. Did they give you any information, 8 either prior to that visit or during that visit, 9 regarding Union Carbide or that mine? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Other than educating them about the New 12 Idria mine, did you cover any other areas with 13 them? 14 MR. RYAN: Just for clarification, I believe 15 his prior answer, he did not say he just limited it 16 to explaining about the New Idria mine. 17 BY MR. GREITZER: 18 Q. Other than that answer, did you explain 19 anything else or educate them in any other areas 20 regarding, I think it is, metamorphic petrology or 21 the New Idria mine? 22 A. Talked about the mineralogy and origins 23 of asbestos itself. 24 Q. Did you talk about specifically the \VM <lA/o[fe., and c^f-i-iociata., {Jnc. Clicafo. OtLinoU (312)702-6087 UCAREF00021468 15 1 chrysotile that was mined at the New Idria mine? 2 A. Yes. ' 3 Q. And what did you explain to Mr. 4 Miltenberger and Mr. Bissell regarding the 5 chrysotile at New Idria? 6 A. I said that the New Idria chrysotile is 7 extremely short fiber, and a very pure substance, 8 from a mining standpoint. 9 MR. GREENWOOD: Can I get a point of 10 clarification? Is New Idria the same as the 11 Coalinga deposit? 12 THE WITNESS: There is confusion in the 13 terminology. The New Idria district of California 14 is a historical geographical and geological 15 entity. 16 A portion of that district has been used 17 for commercial asbestos mining since approximately 18 1960, so in an industrial sense, the Coalinga 19 deposit refers to a subset of the same geographic 20 area. Make sense? 21 BY MR. GREITZER: 22 Q. So that we are all clear, Coalinga is a 23 portion of the New Idria area? 24 A. That's correct. It is that portion that WM <^WoCfe.t czffoi.znljtxq and , (Jnc. C&lccujo, Ottinol* (312} 782-8087 UCAREF00021469 16 1 has been used for commercial asbestos mining. 2 MR. RYAN: Just for the record, it is also'a 3 town in California. ' 4 BY MR. GREIT2ER: 5 Q. The Coalinga area, is that where, I 6 guess it was, KCAC is presently mining? 7 A. Yes. - 8 Q. Is that the area that Union Carbide was 9 mining? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. You said extremely short fiber. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Can you explain to me when you mean by 14 extremely short fiber? 15 A. It means that the fiber length is very 16 much shorter than other commercially-mined 17 asbestos. Typical fiber lengths are under five 18 microns. 19 Q. You said asbestos. Do you mean 20 asbestos, generally, or chrysotile, in particular? 21 A. I mean chrysotile asbestos. 22 Q. Normally, when we do a deposition, we 23 talk about asbestos, we are not dealing with 24 someone with your background, and asbestos has been \\w <lA/o[fz, -,and cJ-fiiocia.be.i One. C&icayot dJCtinoi* (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021470 17 1 used generically. 2 If we could try, if you mean chrysotile, 3 specifically, please try to say chrysotile 4 specifically as posed to asbestos in general, okay? 5 A. Good. 6 Q. And I will try to do the same. 7 What is your understanding of1the normal 8 length of chrysotile fiber mined in areas other 9 than Coalinga? 10 A. In the Canadian deposits, for example, 11 fiber lengths are measured in millimeters and 12 centimeters, rather than in microns. 13 Q. How many more times larger is a 14 millimeter than a micron? 15 A. There are 1,000 microns in a 16 millimeter. There are 100,000 microns in a 17 centimeter. 18 Q. And you are talking about Canadian 19 chrysotile? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. How about South African chrysotile? 22 A. I am not familiar with the fiber length 23 of South African chrysotile. 24 Q. How about chrysotile in the Vermont \VM ^WoCfe., and czrfoeiat&, L7na. Chicago, OUinoli (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021471 18 1 area? 2 A. The Vermont area is very similar to the 3 Canadian occurrences. It is in the same belt. 4 Q. How is it that you are familiar with the 5 fiber length for the Canadian and Vermont 6 chrysotile? 7 A. As a metamorphic petrologist, I am 8 interested in the geology and origins of the 9 Appalachian Mountains as well as the western margin 10 of North America. 11 Q. So that would not include being 12 interested in the South African petrology? 13 A. Not to date. 14 Q. Is it something you think you are going 15 to look into at a future time? 16 A. That is possible. 17 Q. Do you have any specific plans to do 18 that ? 19 A. Not at present. 20 Q. What's your basis for stating that the 21 fibers at the Coalinga mine, would that be the 22 proper terminology, Coalinga mine? Is there 23 another term - 24 A. I would call it the KCAC mine for ^WoCfz, -z/^oi.e.n&e.'Uj and. <zrf-i.ix>auxtei, $na. Cdlcayo. OttinaU (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021472 19 1 clarity. That is the name of the current mine that 2 is in operation. 3 Q. Is it your understanding the KCAC was 4 previously the Union Carbide mine? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. At the KCAC mine, what's the basis for 7 your statement that the fibers of chrysotile are 8 less than or equal to five microns, in general? 9 A. I have gathered samples from that mine 10 and from the surrounding district, and I have 11 examined them at my laboratory at Harvard. 12 Q. When did you obtain the chrysotile? 13 MR. RYAN: The first sample? 14 BY MR. GREITZER: 15 Q. The first sample. 16 A. Let me answer the question this way: I 17 visited the mine several times during the period of 18 my research. The first time I visited the mine was 19 1988. Whether I gathered samples in that year, or 20 whether it was not until '89, I can't say right 21 now. 22 Q. Let me go back a little bit to Mr. 23 Miltenberger and Mr. Bissell. 24 After that initial meeting, did you have WM <zffoitn&zxcj and czrfisociatzi., One. c&icafo, OttinoU (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021473 20 1 any other contact with Mr. Miltenberger or Mr. 2 Bissell regarding your information and knowledge . 3 about the KCAC mine? - 4 A. One or two phone calls. 5 Q. What was the substance of those 6 conversations? 7 A. Follow-up questions on their part. 8 Q. What were those questions regarding? 9 A. Details of things that we had discussed 10 on the day that they came to Harvard. 11 Q. Such as? 12 A. The age of the asbestos deposit, the 13 geologic age. 14 Q. Anything else that you can recall 15 specifically? 16 A. No, not at this point. I am sure there 17 were other things. I just don't recall them at the 18 moment. 19 Q. What else have you done sincethose 20 conversations with Mr. Miltenberger and Mr. Bissell 21 regarding consulting with or educating lawyers or 22 individuals connected with Union Carbide? 23 A. As far as Mr. Miltenberger and Mr. 24 Bissell were concerned, that relationship came to \VM ^1/VoCfe., <zf^oie.nrcxg and <c^aociatei, {Jna. d&icayo, Ottinoi* % (312) 782*8087 UCAREF00021474 21 1 an end. 2 Q. Did those two gentlemen ever provide you 3 with any information regarding the KCAC mine? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Did you gather additional information as 6 a result of their questioning, or for the purpose 7 of educating them regarding the KCAC mine? 8 A. No. In order to answer their questions, 9 I required no further investigations. 10 Q. Again, this would have been after 1990 11 but before 1993. Can you be a little more specific 12 as to when that would have occurred? 13 A. Not without referring to my notes. 14 Q. What kind of notes would you have had 15 regarding your conversations with those gentlemen? 16 A. I would have had a followup letter 17 confirming that they were coming to Harvard on a 18 certain date. 19 Q. I assume that they were paying you for 20 this consultation work? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And how much were you getting, an hourly 23 charge or a flat fee? 24 A. Hourly charge for consulting. TNWlJFA J<zf^otn&cxcj and c^f-iAoetaku, One. Cheapo, UtflnoU (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021475 22 1 Q. What was your hourly charge? | 2 A. $200. 3 Q. Can you tell me, if you can recall, 4 approximately how many hours you spent consulting 5 with them? 6 A. I can't remember, but I would say it was 7 a small number, probably under 10. 8 Q. So that would have encompassed the 9 initial phone call, the education, and the day they 10 came to visit you? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And the followup phone calls? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You didn't have to do anything else? 15 A. No, they didn't ask me to do anything 16 else for them. 17 Q. How far along was your dissertation at / 18 that time? 19 A. The dissertation project began in 1989 20 and was completed in 1995, so this was midway 21 through. 2 2 Q. As a result of these meetings with Mr. 23 Miltenberger and Mr. Bissell, were there 24 conversations about doing future work for Union WM ^WoCfz, and iociatsi., dine. Ckicayo, OCLinoU (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021476 23 1 Carbide, future consultations? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Since that time, have you provided other 4 consultation work for Union Carbide or any of its 5 representatives ? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Can youexplain to me inchronological 8 order, starting from ending your relationship with 9 Mr. Bissell and Mr. Miltenberger, your other 10 contacts with Union Carbide people? 11 A. I received another telephone call from 12 Allen Gerson in the summer of 1993 while I was on 13 the West Coast. I called him at his office in New 14 York, and he asked if -- it was a similar type of 15 request. He asked if I would be willing to consult 16 with some of his collegues on matters relating to 17 asbestos from the New Idria district. 18 Q. Did you follow through with that 19 consultation? 20 A. Yes, I did. 21 Q. Who did you consult with this time? 22 A. I consulted with an attorney named 23 Trevor Will, who was working on a case for a 24 company called Conwed. \V^A ^l/VoCfz, ezf^oienfce.xg and <^/j-i.ix>ciate.i, One. dftlca^o, OCtinois (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021477 24 1 Q. Anybody else? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Was that during the summer of 1993? 4 A. Yes, it was. 5 Q. What did you do with Mr. Will at that 6 time? 7 A. He asked me to accompany him to 8 California to visit the KCAC mine. 9 Q. Were you already out in California at 10 that time? 11 A. I was back in Boston by then. 12 Q. When you said you were on the West 13 Coast, were you at the New Idria mine when you were 14 contacted? 15 A. No, I was actually on my way back. I 16 was enroute when I received this message. 17 Q. So you flew back - 18 A. "This message" being the call from Allen 19 Gerson. 20 Q. You flew back to meet Mr. will, and we 21 will call it, at the KCAC mine? 22 A. No, I returned home, and made a separate 23 excursion to California to meet Mr. Will in San 24 Prancisco. OA/otfe, <z/^oitnfce%g and cz^iociatzi, One. Chicago, tfftinoi* (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021478 25 1 Q. What happened at the meeting with Mr. 2 Will in San Francisco? ' 3 A. We went to the KCAC mine, and gathered 4 samples with Dr. Arthur Langer, and an attorney for 5 Conwed who was accompanying Dr. Langer. 6 Q. Who actually physically attained the 7 samples? 8 A. Dr. Langer, assisted by Roger Hopper, 9 who was the mine superintendent. 10 Q. Who took possession of the samples once 11 they were removed from the ground? 12 A. The samples were split, and Mr. Hopper 13 supervised the splitting. Equal samples were given 14 to Dr. Langer and to myself. 15 Q. Do you know what Dr. Langer was going to 16 do with his samples? 17 A. I believe he was going to perform 18 laboratory tests on them to determine their 19 properties. 20 Q. Did you ever see the results of Dr. 21 Langer's tests? 22 A. Yes, I did. 23 Q. When would that have been? 24 A. A few months after this summer 1993 \V#'/A *"~WoCft, .,and c^fiioaiatei jjnc. Chicago, fJCtinoU (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021479 26 1 visit. 2 Q Do you still have those test results? 3 A. I don't have them here. 4 Q. Do you have them in your file in 5 Cambridge? 6 A. Yes, I do. 7 Q. Do you recall what the results of Dr. 8 Langer's tests were? 9 A. His tests determined the mineralogy of 10 the samples that were gathered from the mine, and 11 described the methodology that he used in gathering 12 the samples and in performing the tests. 13 Q. Was there fiber measurement done at that 14 time by Dr. Langer? 15 A. I don't remember. 16 Q. Did you have conversations with Dr. 17 Langer about his report? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Did you have conversations with anybody 20 about Dr. Langer's report? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Who did you speak with? 23 A. Trevor Will and Allen Gerson. 24 Q. What was the substance of the WWi .,^Wotfz, <zffoiEnrexej and e^f-iociate.i {Jnc. caica^o, OttinoU (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021480 27 1 conversation with Mr. Will and Mr. Gerson regarding 2 Dr. Langer's test results? 3 A. Those two gentlemen asked me if I agreed 4 with or had any problems with Dr. Langer's report. 5 Q. And what was your response to that? 6 A. I said the report looked substantially 7 accurate to me. I had one or two question marks on 8 fine points that were unclear as written. 9 Q. Do you recall what those two fine points 10 might have been? 11 A. No. I thought they were minor details. 12 Q. Do you know whether the report was ever 13 modified as a result of your comments? 14 A. No, I don't know that. 15 Q. Did youever get anyother followup 16 reports from Dr. Langer? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Or about Dr. Langer's report? 19 A. No. 20 Q. You stated that you took samples that 21 you kept? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. What did you do with those samples? 24 A. Put them in my sample storage cabinet at \VM O/Vodfe, and czrf-iioeuitei, One. {Ifiic&go, OJtCinoLi (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021481 28 1 Harvard. 2 Q. Did you perform any tests on those 3 samples? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Are the samples that were taken at the 6 same time that Dr. Langer took his samples, are 7 they still in the same condition as they would have 8 been when they were removed from the ground and 9 bagged? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. How large of a sample are we talking 12 about? 13 A. Each bag is about the size of a jelly 14 donut. 15 Q. How many bags do youhave? 16 A. 10 to 20. 17 Q. Would it be correct that that would be 18 this -- the contents of those bags would be the 19 same as what Dr. Langer tested? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. So if Dr. Langer found it was chrysotile 22 and fiber lengths, there would be no reason that 23 your bags would be any different from Dr. Langer's 24 bags? \VM ^WoCje., .,and czrfioeCate.i }nc. Chicago. /JCCinoU (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021482 29 MR. RYAN: Objection. Obviously, this witness 2 has testified he hasn't tested those samples. So 3 you are asking him to speculate. 4 BY MR. GREITZER: 5 Q. What I am asking - 6 MR. RYAN: You can answer to the extent you 7 understand the question. 8 BY MR. GREITZER: 9 Q. Let'8 rephrase it. You and Dr. Langer 10 went to the KCAC mine and took samples of the 11 material from the mine, split them in two, is that 12 correct ? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Would it be fair to say you took half 15 and he took half? 16 A. That's right. 17 Q. And that therewas no distinction made 18 as to what half you took and what half Dr. Langer 19 took? 20 A. No, in fact, in every case, once we had 21 two sample bags, he always gave me my choice. 22 Q. Fair enough. So there is, based on your 23 information, in your seeing what happened at the 24 KCAC mine that day, it would be your understanding WM O/l/oCfz, <z/^oznzig and <cdfi&oaiatzi, One. dfilcajo, 0ttinoi% 0 (312) 782'8087 UCAREF00021483 30 1 that what you have in your possession would be, 2 essentially, exactly what Dr. Langer tested? ' 3 MR. RYAN: Subject to my objection before ' 4 about the fact that he hasn't performed the same 5 tests that Dr. Langer did, you may answer. 6 BY THE WITNESS: 7 A. I witnessed the sample gathering and 8 bagging, and from that standpoint, and not from the 9 standpoint of any laboratory tests, I would say 10 this these samples should be substantially equal. 11 BY MR. GREITZER: 12 Q. How did you go about obtaining the 13 samples? 14 A. With a hand shovel, similar to an 15 entrenching tool. 16 Q. Based on your reading of Dr. Langer's 17 report, what did that material contain that you 18 removed from the ground? 19 A. Nearly pure chrysotile. 20 Q. When you removed those samples, was 21 anybody wearing any protective gear? 22 A. No. 23 Q. So you weren't wearing a respirator at 24 that time? \V'#a ^WoCft, ez/fjOi&n&e'Uj and c^f-nociatzi, One. CHicajo, OltinoLi (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021484 31 1 A. No. 2 Q. Was anybody there wearing a respirator? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did theremoval ofthese samplesfrom 5 the ground create any visible dust? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Did you educate Mr. Will at that time 8 regarding the KCAC mine? 9 A. Yes, I did. 10 Q. Is it the sametype ofinformation you 11 gave to Mr. Bissell and Mr. Miltenberger? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Had you done anyindependent research or 14 information gathering between the time you spoke to 15 Mr. Miltenberger and Mr. Bissell and the time you 16 spoke with Mr. Will regarding the KCAC mine? 17 MR. RYAN: You mean in addition to his 18 continuing dissertation work? 19 BY MR. GREITZER: 20 Q. Correct. 21 A. My dissertationresearch was 22 progressing, but I did nothing specifically related 23 to the KCAC mine, or chrysotile asbestos mined 24 there. WM <Wo(fa ezffoizn&Exc) and czrf-iioeLatzi, Dna. Cfiicayo. {KtinoU (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021485 32 1 Q. Did you prepare any written material or 2 prepare any reports based on that trip to the KCAC 3 mine in 1993 with Dr. Langer? ` 4 A. No. 5 Q. Did you give any oral reports to anybody 6 as a result of that trip? 7 A. I think I said before that there was a 8 phone conversation with Trevor Will and Allen 9 Gerson concerning Art Langer's report. 10 Q. Other than that phone conversation? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Were you contacted again by anybody from 13 Union Carbide regarding the KCAC mine? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Who contacted you? 16 A. Allen Gerson. 17 Q. Would this be the third contact? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. When was that third contact? 20 A. That was late winter, early spring of 21 this year, that is, -- 22 Q. Early 1995? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And what did Mr. Gerson ask of you at WWa CHua^e, OttinoU (312) 782-8087 $ne. UCAREF00021486 33 1 that time? 2 A. Would I be willing to consult with 6ne. 3 of his collegues on matters related to asbestos and 4 the New Idria district. 5 Q. And did you follow through with that 6 request? 7 A. I agreed. 8 Q. Who did you speak with anybody? 9 A. Yes. I did. 10 Q. Who did you speak with? 11 A. Ed Ryan. 12 Q. When did you speak with Mr. Ryan? 13 A. Late winter or early spring of this 14 year. 15 Q. Approximately the same time that you 16 spoke to Mr. Gerson? 17 A. Very quickly thereafter. 18 Q. Did you meet with Mr. Ryan in person or 19 talk to him over the phone initially? 20 A. You are asking the initial contact? 21 Q. Initial contact. 22 A. Telephone contact. 23 Q. What was the substance of that telephone 24 conversation? WV'A l,IVoCft, cz/^ou.n&z'uj and <z/f&*oeiat 0nc. {Jttinoi*. (312) 732-3037 . UCAREF00021487 34 1 A. He asked if I would be willing to 2 consult with him on matters related to chrysotile 3 asbestos from the New idria district. 4 Q. Did you agree to do that? 5 A. Yes, I did. 6 Q. Did he explain to to you what type of 7 litigation was involved at that time? 8 MR. RYAN: During the phone conversation? 9 BY MR. GREITZER: 10 Q. During that phone conversation. 11 A. I don't know. 12 Q. What was your next contact with Mr. 13 Ryan? 14 A. He and I negotiated a datewhen he would 15 come to my lab at Harvard, and we spent aday 16 together similar to the day I described before with 17 John Bissell and Lou Miltenberger. 18 Q. At that time you had in your possession 19 the samples that were obtained at the same time 20 Arthur Langer obtained his samples? 21 A. Yes, I did. 22 Q. Did you examine those samples with Mr. 23 Ryan? 24 A. No. WM ,(lA^o[jc, <^oi.nrc.\ej and czrf-i&oauit&i. }nc. 5C&icayo, Dttinoi # (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021488 35 1 Q. Let me go back. Do you recall how much 2 time you spent with Mr. Will and what your billing 3 was for your work with Mr. Will during the work at 4 the KCAC mine? 5 A. The billing rate was the same. The 6 largest amount of time with Mr. Will was on account 7 of the trip to California. Outside of that, there 8 was very little time spent. 9 Q. After you met with Mr. Will and before 10 you met with Mr. Ryan, other than the continuation 11 of your dissertation project, did you obtain any 12 other or attempt to gather any other information 13 regarding chrysotile asbestos? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Did Mr. Ryan, when he met with you in 16 Massachusetts, explain to you the litigation he was 17 involved in? 18 A. In general terms. 19 Q. And what general terms were they? 20 A. He said that there was acase involving 21 asbestos in the public schools of Chicago. 22 Q. Were your responsibilitiesexplained to 23 you at that time regarding what was expected of 24 you? O/MoCfc, and cz/fiioaiatzi., $ne. CkuLO$o. Ottinoi.% (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021489 M 36 1 A. Could you rephrase that? I am not sure 2 exactly what you are asking me. 3 Q. What information did Mr. Ryan want from 4 you when he came to meet with you? 5 A. He wanted two things: He wanted general 6 information about the nature and origin of 7 chrysotile asbestos from the New Idria district, 8 and he wanted to know if I would consult with him 9 on matters relating to this Chicago case. 10 Q. Did Mr. Ryan provide you with any 11 documents regarding chrysotile asbestos or the KCAC 12 mining area? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Did you do any further testing or 15 research as a result of your conversations with Mr. 16 Ryan? 17 A. No. 18 MR. RYAN: Again, you mean other than his 19 dissertation? I j 20 BY MR. GREITZER: 21 Q. Other than your dissertation. 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. I have a copy of your dissertation. It 24 is dated May 1995 that was provided to me. .,^WoCfe., <zf^oe.nre.'uj and <z/f-ocia.tzi 0na. (2&iccLcjo, {JCCinoii. (312) 792-3087 UCAREF00021490 37 1 I assume, and correct me if I am wrong, 2 that there are previous drafts of this ' 3 dissertation, would that be correct? 4 A. Yes. . 5 Q. Was this a growing body of work, your 6 dissertation, in terms of did you have a draft that 7 was originally 100 pages and then developed into a 8 4, 500-page document? 9 A. Let me answer the question this way: 10 Since you have read the thesis, you have noted that 11 it is divided into several chapters. 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. Bach oneof thosechaptersrepresents a 14 separate body of research, and has its own 15 trajectory with respect to research, preliminary 16 documents, drafts, that sort of thing. So the 17 chapters were all reviewed separately by faculty 18 members at Harvard, and then at the end they were 19 combined into the document that you see before you. 20 Q. Would it be fair to say then that the 21 chapters were prepared individually? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Was there a timethat youwere working 24 on information for Chapter 2 at the same time you WM ,and. c^ioaia.tti Jnc. C&laajo, tfCtinoli (312)782-6087 UCAREF00021491 38 1 were working on information for Chapter 3? 2 A. At all times. '- 3 Q. So during this process of developing 4 your thesis, and the various chapters within your 5 thesis, you were working on each chapter throughout 6 this time period? 7 A. I was working on all chapters1 8 simultaneously. 9 Q. What was the name of the adviser, is 10 this Dr. Holland who was your principal advisor? 11 A. Heinrich D. Holland. 12 Q. That would have started, your first 13 contact regarding your thesis, would have been in 14 1987 with Dr. Holland? 15 A. My first contact relating to mythesis 16 with Dr. Holland was probably after 1987, more like 17 1989 . 18 Q. Is Dr. Holland somebody that you worked 19 with at Harvard, regardless of the thesis, before 20 the thesis? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Do you have a file for your thesis which 23 would include initial drafts, initial outlines, 24 comments from Dr. Holland, or other faculty WM OA/oCfz, i,and c^faoaiate One. dticago, Ottinoii # (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021492 39 1 advisers? 2 A. There are other faculty advisers as' . 3 stated in the thesis. - 4 Q. You thanked a lot of people and I don't 5 think I want to get into all of that. My question 6 really is, do you have a file that shows the 7 development of your thesis from beginning to now, 8 finally getting your Ph.D.? 9 A. I have a file that shows the development 10 of the ideas, but does not retain all the previous 11 drafts. 12 Q. Do you have any previous drafts? 13 A. I probably have the immediately 14 preceding draft to this, which is probably dated 15 April 1995. 16 Q. Do you have any notes in your files 17 regarding the initial development of your thesis? 18 A. The development of the document, or the 19 development of the scientific ideas? 20 Q. The ideas and the reasons for the 21 different chapters. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. That's in your files presently? 24 A. Yes. VVM ^l/Uotfe, and. <zOi.Aociat., One. CHica^o, OttinoU (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021493 40 1 Q. Other than meeting with Mr. Ryan in 1 2 Cambridge, have you had any other meetings or phone 3 conversations with Mr. Ryan, other than arranging 4 schedules for the deposition? - 5 A. I met with Mr. Ryan yesterday. 6 Q. For approximately how long did you meet 7 with Mr. Ryan yesterday? ' 8 A. Several hours. 9 Q. And what was discussed during that 10 meeting? 11 A. Two things: One is what to expect at a 12 deposition, since I have never done this before, 13 and the other was some general questions on my 14 thesis, which was work-in-progress on the day when 15 he visited me at Harvard, and which is now 16 complete. 17 Q. Were you provided with any other 18 documents regarding asbestos, generally, by Mr. 19 Ryan at that time? 20 A. No. 21 Q. So from the first time you met or had a 22 conversation with Mr. Gerson, that would have been 23 somewhere after 1990 but before 1993, up until 24 today, have you ever received any documents or WM ^Wotfe., <cf\?oi*.nre.%(j and c^fuoeuitci, One. d^iica^o, OttinoL* # (312)792-8087 UCAREF00021494 41 1 reviewed any documents from a representative of 2 Union Carbide regarding asbestos, in general? 3 A. Yes. - 4 Q. What documents did you receive? 5 A. The report from Dr. Art Langer, 6 previously discussed. 7 Q. Anything other than Dr. Langer's 8 report. I apologize for that. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What else would have you received? 11 A. I don't know the terms for this, but the| 12 statement of my expert disclosure today. 13 Q. Yes. 14 A. I don't know what to call that piece of 15 paper, but I received that. 16 Q. Okay. Did it include the expert 17 disclosure of other experts, or was it just your 18 section, if you recall? 19 A. Just my section. 20 MR. GREITZBR: Let me show you -- do you have 21 a copy for the doctor, of the - 22 MR. RYAN: I have my own copy. Do you want 23 him to look on? 24 MR. GREITZER: Yeah, if that's okay. Wi?/A ^WoCft, <z/^ote.nfjz,uj and cztfi&oauitei, One. CftUayo, {JCCinolx (312)792-8087 UCAREF00021495 42 1 MR. RYAN: Sure. 2 MR. GREITZER: Has this been marked before? 3 MR. GREENWOOD: It'S on file. 4 BY MR. GREITZER: 5 Q. We will just refer to it then. I would 6 like you to take a look at what's referred to, 7 front page, it'S Union Carbide Chemicals And 8 Plastic Company, Inc.'s Expert Witness Disclosure. 9 I assume what you said before is you 10 have never seen this full document, is that 11 correct ? 12 A. No. 13 MR. RYAN: No, that is correct. 14 BY MR. GREITZER: I 15 Q. No, that is correct, you have never seen 16 the full document? 17 A. Yes, I have never seen the full 18 document. Yes, we have no bananas. 19 Q. Let's take a look at Page 13. It has 20 Mr. Mark Van Baalen, it now should be Dr. 21 Did you participate in the preparation 22 of the disclosure section for yourself? 23 A. I received a draft by fax, which was, 24 substantially, these words, and I was asked if I ,^1/l/oift, ed^oiznfcz'uj and c^f-ociatzi One. {Ifiitiayo, OCtinaix (312) 792-8087 UCAREF00021496 43 1 could correct any terminology, or that sort of 2 thing. - 3 Q. Did you have a conversation with anybody 4 prior, regarding this disclosure statement, prior 5 to receiving this fax? Did anybody ever call you 6 up and say, "What are you going to testify to?" 7 A. Mr. Ryan and his colleague Matt Norton 8 prepared this document, as I understand it. And I 9 was sent the draft. I did not participate in the 10 original wording of the document. I just received 11 the draft. 12 Q. Did you have any discussions with them 13 regarding the preparation of the document before 14 you ever received it? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did you make any changes once you 17 received the document? 18 A. Yes, there were some terminology 19 issues. 20 Q. Can you take a look -- can you recall 21 what they would have been -- Actually, you know 22 what? Take a look through the section. If you can 23 tell me other than the fact that you have now 24 received your Ph.D. -- \VM ^Wotfe, and c^iiocLatzi, One. dklzcL^o, Ottinoi.\ (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021497 44 1 MR. RYAN: I will stipulate on the record that 2 we did not know that Dr. Van Baalen was a ' 3 metamorphic petrologist when we first talked to 4 him. 5 BY MR. GREITZER: 6 Q. If you could, other than the fact that 7 you have received your Ph.D., is there anything 8 that's not accurate in this section? 9 A. Anything that's not accurate in this 10 section? 11 Q. Right. 12 A. No, I consider this to be accurate. 13 Q. Can you recall the items that you 14 changed from the initial draft you received? 15 A. I think there was a problem with my 16 title. They wanted me to be a professor of 17 mineralogy at Harvard, and I am not a professor. 18 Q. Were there any other changes that you 19 recall that you made? 20 MR. RYAN: If you recall. 21 BY THE WITNESS: 22 A. Give me a moment, and I will see if I 23 can find one. 24 There may have been something in the 1VM ezffoienljtxcj and czrf-iiociatti, One. ^fileago, Ottinol* (312) 732-8087 UCAREF00021498 45 1 wording of this statement at the top of Page 14 2 about the Canadian chrysotile, and description of 3 cross fiber formation perpendicular to-vein walls. 4 I think there was some morphological terms there 5 that I didn't like. And so I think this wording is 6 correct as it stands. 7 There was, near the bottom of:Page 14 8 where it talks about tremolite or any other 9 amphibole asbestos, I think there was a terminology 10 problem there, concerning the difference between 11 amphibole and amphibole asbestos. 12 Q. I saw that there were amphiboles at the 13 KCAC area, and I was going to ask you about that 14 later. 15 A. Yes, that's about all I can remember. 16 Q. Other than meeting with Mr. Ryan 17 yesterday, did you do anything to specifically 18 prepare for today's deposition? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Did you review any documents you had in 21 your possession in preparation for today's 22 testimony? i 23 A. I reviewed this document here. 24 Q. The disclosure statement? WJ?/A WoCfe, <zJ^oi.e.nrtxj and czrf-iiociatts, One. C&taxyo, jJCCinoii # (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021499 46 1 A. Yes, I also reviewed my CV. 2 {WHEREUPON, discussion was had off 3 the record.) - 4 BY MR. GREITZBR: 5 Q. Were you asked to review or bring, 6 review any documents before you came? 7 A. No. Other than the -- what do you call 8 it? 9 Q. Disclosure statement? 10 A. Disclosure and my CV. 11 Q. Do you have a file regarding the KCAC 12 mine separate and apart from your dissertation 13 dealing with the litigation that you have been 14 consulted on? 15 A. If you are asking do I have a fileabout 16 scientific matters or mining practices or that sort 17 of thing, the answer is no. 18 Q. Do you have a file dealing with, for Mr. 19 Gerson or Union Carbide, dealing with your 20 consultation work for them? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Is that located inCambridge? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Did you reviewthat file before you WW/A (~WoCfz, and c^itoaiatzi., fine. /Zietujo, iJtCinoii # (312) 782'Q0$7 UCAREF00021500 47 1 came? 2 A. Yes. Mainly to get all the names and 3 addresses and telephone numbers straight. 4 Q. How large of a file is that? 5 A. One centimeter. 6 Q. Less than half an inch? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. I assume that you didn't bring that file 9 with you today? 10 A. No. 11 MR. GREITZER: Why don't we mark as an 12 exhibit, have we been marking these with the 13 witness' name? 14 (WHEREUPON, said document was 15 marked Van Baalen Deposition 16 Exhibit No. 1, for 17 identification, as of 6/14/95). 18 BY MR. GREITZER: 19 Q. Where did you grow up? 20 A. Northeastern United States. 21 Q. Did you graduate high school? Where did 22 you graduate high school from? 23 A. Angola, New York. 24 Q. When you say northeastern United States, Ofl/oCfc., and cdli-iociatzi, One. Cftictujo, Ottinoh (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021501 48 1 does that mean to imply that you traveled from - 2 school to school for a couple of years? 3 A. We moved around a lot when I was a kid. 4 Q. So for your parents' jobs? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Was it your father's job? 7 A. Y e s. - 8 Q. What was he? 9 A. Electrical engineer. 10 Q. Who did he work for? 11 A. Several companies, including Zenith 12 Radio here in Chicago. 13 Q. Let me show you what we have marked as 14 VanBaalen 1. Is this your curriculum vitae? 15 A. As Of March 1995. 16 Q. I can look at it now, I know that this 17 is not totally up to date, is that correct? 18 A. That's correct. ! 19 Q. Do you have a more current CVthat's 20 been prepared? 21 A. No. 22 Q. What is not up to date about this CV? 23 A. In the section under Degrees, Ihave one 24 more degree now than I had then. In the section of WM ^Wolfe., czffoitnljtxg and , LIna. dftica^o, dJCCinois (312) 782*8087 UCAREF00021502 49 1 Academic Positions Held, I am no longer a Ph.D. 2 candidate in geology at Harvard. . 3 Q. So that's something that would be .. 4 stricken, is that correct, from your resume? 5 A. What do you mean by "stricken"? 6 Q. When you prepare your new resume, you 7 will have your Ph.D. in terms of degrees* but you 8 won't have, under Academic Positions Held, 9 "candidate" is that correct? 10 A. That's correct. Otherwise, let's see, 11 top of the second page, the thesis itself, says 12 "Ph.D. Thesis, Harvard University submitted." It 13 is actually misspelled, but I would take that out. 14 And the page count turned out to be more than 400. 15 It turned out to be closer to 500. 16 The other things are correct. 17 Q. I want to go through some things on your 18 CV, and feel free to refer to it as we go down the 19 list. 20 You got your undergraduate degree from 21 Harvard in 1966 in astronomy? 22 A. That's right. 23 Q. Did you have any minor or any other 24 courses at that time in geology? ^1/VoCft, and czrfi.ocLate.i, One. CfiicGujo, OCCinois 012) 782-8087 UCAREF00021503 50 1 A. No. I should add that Harvard does not 2 awards degrees with minors. . 3 Q. You didn't have any focus, though, on 4 geology when you graduated in 1966, is that 5 correct? 6 MR. RYAN: You mean -- I am not sure what you 7 mean by that. 8 BY MR. GREITZER: 9 Q. Did you take any courses in geology, 10 undergrad, at Harvard? 11 A. No, I did not. No, I would like to 12 explain something, though, the field of astronomy, 13 then, and especially now, includes the geology of 14 bodies other than the earth. 15 Q. But it does not include, if I am 16 correct, the geology of the earth? 17 A. It did not at that time, other than the 18 study of things like meteorites. That has changed 19 in the intervening years. 20 Q. You received a master's degree in 1989 21 from Harvard in geology, is that correct? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. When did you begin your course study to 24 obtain that master's degree? WM <Wotfr <zffoi.cn&z%j and <z$Aoeiaii, fjnc. tCftiecujo, fJttlnoii (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021504 51 1 A. I began a rigorous and disciplined study 2 of geology in the mid '80s, approximately, 1984: 3 By 1987, I was convinced that I should enter the' 4 graduate school and obtain a higher degree in 5 geology. So I entered the graduate school in 6 1987 . 7 So during that intervening, I-am sorry, 8 during the preceding period of about three years, I 9 was taking courses in geology, and doing some 10 simple research projects outside. 11 Q. Then in 1987 you began your formal 12 graduate school program? 13 A. That's correct. I was admitted to the 14 graduate school of arts and sciences at Harvard. 15 Q. From 1987 to 1989, were you a full-time 16 student? 17 A. Yes, I was. 18 Q. Were you working anywhere at that time? 19 A. Yes, I was. 20 Q. Where were you working? 21 A. At Harvard University. 22 Q. What was your job at Harvard? 23 A. I was an administrator in the computer 24 networking area. VV/?/A (~Wo[fe, ,anJ. czrf-i.xocLa.tzi 0nc. Cfiicayo, fJCtinoi* (312) 782'8087 UCAREF00021505 52 1 Q. Was this a full-time job? 2 A. Up until the time that I became a 3 full-time graduate student, that was a full-time 4 job. When I became a full-time graduate student, 5 that job became half-time. 6 Q. Would that be 20 hours a week, 7 approximately? - 8 A. More. 9 Q. Did you have a particular focus during 10 your graduate school years in geology, particular 11 area of geology that you focused on? 12 A. Yes, I did. 13 Q. What area would that have been? 14 A. Metamorphic petrology. 15 Q. $64,000 question: What is metamorphic 16 petrology? 17 A. Petrology is a subdiscipline of the 18 earth sciences that deals with the physics and 19 chemistry of the formation of rocks. 20 Metamorphic rocks are rocks that have 21 taken a new shape from a previously existing rock 22 type. 23 Q. Does that mean that there are rock types 24 that don't change over time? IVK Aj ^WoCfz, <zffoizn&\cj and czrfuocuibei, 0nc. ddica^o, Ottinoi% (312) 782-8087 . UCAREF00021506 53 1 A. No, but I will give you an example to 2 answer the question. If you have a volcanic 3 eruption, such as what's happening currently on 4 Hawaii, you have lava coming out of the volcano. 5 That is considered an igneous rock type. The lava 6 comes out, it solidifies as an igneous rock. Over 7 geologic time, that rock can change into;a 8 different rock type, which could be a metamorphic 9 rock. 10 Q. Is there a reason, in 1984, that you 11 developed this interest in geology? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What would that be? 14 A. As you can see from my CV, I havebeen 15 involved with science throughout my entire career. 16 I have also been involved with outdoor activities 17 including mountaineering, that sort of thing. 18 Geology is a ideal subject for people who like 19 science and who like the out-of-doors. 20 In addition to that, I felt my knowledge 21 of computers and computer networks could be an 22 addition to the science itself. 23 Q. Is there a reason that you focused on 24 metamorphic petrology during your graduate school W/>/i OA/oCjz, <z/tfonlsc'U} and czrfs.AociaU, {Jnc. Chicago, OttinoU (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021507 54 1 training? 2 A. I investigated several different 3 branches, and I found that to be the most 4 interesting, and the area where I was most likely 5 to be able to make a contribution to science. 6 Q. What other particular areas are there in 7 geology that were available to you at Harvard? 8 MR. RYAN: Are you asking what are the other 9 areas of geology? 10 BY MR. GREITZER: 11 Q. You have metamorphic petrology is what 12 you focused on. Are there several other areas 13 within geology that you could have concentrated 14 your master's degree in? 15 A. Yes, there were. 16 Q. Approximately how many other areas? 17 A. 10. 18 Q. Can you list those? 19 A. I can list some of them. 20 Q. Okay. List the ones youremember. 21 A. Okay. Seismology. 22 Q. Earthquakes? 23 A. Yes. Geophysics, atmospheric sciences, 24 paleontology, geochemistry, structural geology, O/VoCfe, and <zrfisociate, One. i (Jfiicayo, Oltinoi (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021508 55 1 mineralogy, economic geology. 2 Q. What was that? ' 3 A. Economic geology, mining geology, if you 4 will. Experimental geology, material science. I 5 think those are the main ones. I don't know how 6 many that is. 7 Q. Can you describe what the area of 8 mineralogy deals with? 9 A. Mineralogy is the study of minerals. 10 Q. Would asbestos be considered a mineral? 11 A. Asbestos is the name of a rather large 12 family of minerals, all of which have separate 13 mineralogical properties. 14 Q. I will use asbestos in a general term, 15 again. Would there be more focus on asbestos in 16 the field of mineralogy than in the field of 17 metamorphic petrology? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Would it be the same, or more so in 20 metamorphic? 21 A. Let me answer the question this way: 22 Mineralogy studies the properties of an individual 23 mineral. Petrology studies the origin of minerals 24 and their relationships to other minerals. So you WM ^WoCft, czffoitnlrexg and c^fiioeiata, jnc. CAicayo, OttinoU (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021509 56 1 need both. 2 If you want to understand the origin'of 3 asbestos, or any other type of mineral, you have to 4 understand both mineralogy and petrology, as well 5 as some other things. 6 Q. Do you have an understanding of the 7 field of mineralogy? 8 A. Yes, I do. 9 Q. So you obtained, received credit for 10 courses in mineralogy during graduate school 11 training? 12 A. Yes, that's correct. 13 Q. Did you study the other areas that you 14 previously listed of geology, did you study those 15 areas during your graduate school training? 16 A. Some of those. 17 Q. Do you recall which ones? 18 A. Read off the list, and I will tell you 19 yes or no. 20 Q. Geophysics? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Structural mineralogy? 23 A. Structural geology, yes. 24 Q. Material science? WM <l/VoCf&, and. c^fiiociaiti, One. Ckicayo, gttinoli (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021510 57 1 A. NO. 2 Q. Economic geology? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Paleontology? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. During your undergraduate training in 7 astronomy, did you take any courses dealing with 8 asbestos, generally, as a mineral? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Prior to 1984,when you developed this 11 interest in geology, had you studied or taken any 12 courses that dealt with asbestos as a mineral? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Prior to 1984, did you know what 15 asbestos was, generally speaking? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Prior to 1984,how would you have been 18 aware of asbestos generally prior to 1984? 19 A. I was probably more aware of itthrough 20 its commercial applications than I was of its 21 origin and physical properties. 22 Q. And what understanding did you have of 23 the commercial applications of asbestos prior to 24 1984? WJ?A i, <zf^oznfjc.\cj and <^rfsiociakzi., One. {J&icayo, iJClinoi* (312) 782*8087 UCAREF00021511 58 1 . A. in general, I would say that it was a 2 substance used where thermal insulation or chemical 3 inertness was required. 4 Q. Do you have an understanding of 5 particular uses of asbestos? 6 A. Some. 7 Q. Which ones? 8 MR. RYAN: When are we talking? 9 BY MR. GREITZER: I 10 Q. I am focusing on prior to 1984. 11 A. Clutch linings, brake linings, friction 12 products, in general, I think you could say, 13 insulation applications for boilers, that sort of 14 thing. 15 Q. What was your understanding of the use 16 of these asbestos products for thermal insulation 17 and friction products prior to 1984 in terms of 18 their use from 1975 to 1984? 19 A. I am not sure I understand that. 20 Q. Do you have an understanding of whether 21 asbestos products were used in 1984 for thermal 22 insulation? 23 A. I think they were. 24 Q. I will limit that to in the United \VM ^1/VoCft., tzffoitnfce.'uj and c^i-iociata, Onz. CHiea^o. OCtinoii 1312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021512 59 1 States. 2 A. I think they were. ' 3 Q. Did you have an understanding prior to 4 1984 of any health hazards allegedly related to 5 asbestos, generally? 6 A. I was generally aware of Dr. Irving 7 Selikoff's work on the history of shipyard workers 8 during the second World War. 9 Q. When would you have first have become 10 aware of Dr. Selikoff's work? 11 A. I don't know. 12 Q. Would it have been in the 1960s? 13 A. Probably later. 14 Q. Would it have been in the '70s? 15 A. Quite possibly. 16 Q. Could it have been as late as the 1980s? 17 A. Possibly. 18 Q. Do you know why it was you became 19 familiar with Dr. Selikoff's work? 20 A. Probably through the news media. 21 Q. Was it the news media that first 22 directed your attention to the health hazards of 23 asbestos products? 24 MR. RYAN: Objection. I don't know that this WW/A .,H/VoCft, cffoiznfj&xij and. c^fyiiocLatii One. dluafo. UCtinoU 1312)782-8087 UCAREF00021513 60 1 witness has talked about health hazards, and I 2 think it is apparent from the expert disclosure . 3 that this witness is going to offer at trial no 4 testimony with regard to health hazards. 5 He is going to offer testimony within 6 his field, and if necessary, I would so stipulate 7 to move the deposition along. 8 MR. GREITZER: I clearly understand that. 9 There is just statements made in the thesis that I 10 would like to follow up on dealing with health 11 issues. 12 MR. GREENWOOD: I would indicate, in the CV, 13 there is an article entitled, "Health and 14 Asbestos." 15 MR. GREITZER: Right. 16 MR. GREENWOOD: I think that needs to be gone 17 into. But I appreciate your statement. 18 MR. GREITZER: And I do, too. And based on 19 what information I get, I don't want to - - I don't 20 intend to go through medical articles, or anything 21 like that, but I would like some general 22 information about his knowledge of alleged health 23 hazards. 24 MR. RYAN: I have stated my objection. WWa <WoCf*, ez/tfoitn&exg and czrf-iiociatci., 0na. C&icago, DltinoU (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021514 61 1 BY MR. GREITZER: 2 Q. Let's rephrase that. What first brought 3 your attention to Dr. Selikoff's work on shipyard 4 workers and their exposure to asbestos? 5 A. More than likely, it was the ordinary 6 news media, and I had a citizen's knowledge rather 7 than a scientist's knowledge during those years. 8 Q. What was your citizen's knowledge at 9 that time? 10 A. Should I be answering this? 11 MR. RYAN: You may answer, subject to my 12 objection. 13 BY THE WITNESS: 14 A. My impression was that there was a 15 relationship between asbestos and disease for these 16 shipyard workers. 17 BY MR. GREITZER: 18 Q. Did you at some point develop a 19 scientist's knowledge of the potential health 20 hazards of asbestos? 21 A. Yes, I did. 22 Q. And when would that have been? 23 A. After I engaged in the study of geology 24 in graduate school. \,<l/VoCfe, cd^oitnljfuj and c^h.ociatz One. C&Uayo, JKinoi* 0 (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021515 62 1 Q. From 1984 when you developed the 2 interest in geology, up until the time you entered 3 graduate school in 1987, did any of the courses 4 that you took deal with asbestos, generally? 5 A. Yes, they did. 6 Q. Do you recall how many courseswould 7 have dealt with asbestos, generally? 8 MR. RYAN: You mean by that, would have 9 touched on asbestos? 10 BY MR. GREITZER: 11 Q. Touched on asbestos. 12 A. Yes, the introductorymineralogy course 13 at Harvard deals with asbestos. 14 Q. Any other courses that you can recall 15 today? 16 A. Upper level mineralogy and petrology 17 courses also mention asbestos in passing. There is 18 no course on asbestos, per se. 19 Q. I assume that those, correct me if I am 20 wrong, those courses dealt with the different types 21 of asbestos, such as chrysotile, or amphiboles or 22 crocidolite, would that be accurate? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Did any of the courses you took prior to W///A ^WoCfz, czf^oizn&c.'U) and c^)i.ioeuztzi, lna. (iieago, fJCCinoi* (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021516 63 1 1987, entering graduate school, deal with the 2 potential health hazards of asbestos? . 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. what course would that have been? 5 A. Introductory to Mineralogy. 6 Q. Do you recall what was covered in that 7 course regarding the health hazards? . 8 A. We were taught to distinguish among the 9 different types of asbestos, in a mineralogical 10 sense, and it was pointed out to us that some forms 11 of asbestos were related to disease, but not all. 12 Q. Do you recall which types of asbestos 13 were related to disease? 14 A. Amphibole asbestos. 15 Q. Were there any other types? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Was crocidolite related to asbestos 18 disease? 19 A. Especially crocidolite. 20 Q. What types of asbestos, to your 21 understanding, were not related to asbestos 22 diseases? 23 A. Chrysotile. 24 Q. When I talk about asbestos diseases, I \\m ,and czrfuocuitci One. dftica^o, Ottinoix # (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021517 64 1 what was your understanding at that time of the 2 different diseases that asbestos generally could , 3 cause? - 4 A. The two most important diseases are 5 malignant mesothelioma and asbestosis. 6 Q. Had you ever heard of malignant 7 mesothelioma prior to your courses at Harvard 8 between 1984 and 1987? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Did they explain to you what malignant 11 mesothelioma was? 12 A. They gave us a mineralogist's 13 explanation, not a doctor's explanation, not 14 medical. 15 Q. What would the mineralogist's 16 explanation have been? 17 MR. RYAN: You mean back in this course? 18 BY MR. GREITZER: 19 Q. Back in this course? 20 MR. RYAN: In the '80s? 21 MR. GREITZER: Yes. 22 BY THE WITNESS: 23 A. Certain minerals interact with the body 24 in such a way as to cause tumors or other WM <WoCfa ,and c^f-xxoaiata Ona. {Jliicajo, Ottinol* (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021518 65 1 diseases. 2 BY MR. GREITZER: - 3 Q. When you say "other diseases," would ~ 4 fibrosis or scarring be one of the other diseases? 5 MR. RYAN: Now, are you asking him for a 6 medical opinion, or what he was told in the 7 lecture? 8 MR. GREITZER: What he was told and -- what he 9 was told. 10 MR. RYAN: Continuing objection to the 11 relevancy of asking a geologist this question. 12 BY THE WITNESS: 13 A. I don't remember. I don't believe that 14 in a mineralogy course we attempted to distinguish 15 between fibrosis scarring of lung tissue, tumors, 16 lesions that sort of thing. 17 BY MR. GREITZER: 18 Q. Would it be fair to say then that up 19 until today, you have received no formal medical 20 training regarding asbestos-related diseases? 21 A. I have received no formal medical 22 training, period. 23 Q. Have you received any informal medical 24 training regarding asbestos diseases? WM (lA/otfe, ezffoiEn&euj and. c^ioeiatx.a., (Jna. Cheapo, QttinoU (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021519 66 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. What would that have been? 3 A. I have read in the literature, I have' 4 attended a short course entitled, "Health Effects 5 of Mineral Dusts," put on by the Mineralogical 6 Society of America, and a sister professional 7 society, American College of Pathologists, or 8 something like that. I probably don't have the 9 name right. 10 I have attended symposia at national 11 science meetings. I have gone on field trips with 12 other scientists to asbestos mines, and discussed 13 this area with colleagues and other faculty members 14 at Harvard who were interested in this as well. 15 Q. Were these discussions with medical 16 doctors, or - 17 A. In some cases. 18 Q. Do you recall what medical doctors you 19 would have had these discussions with? 20 A. The names of the doctors? 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. No, I don't. 23 Q. You mentioned having reviewed 24 literature. WM ^WoCfe., .,and czrf-i.xooLa.kti $na. Chicago. OCCinoti (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021520 67 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Was it medicalliterature? ' 3 A. In some cases. 4 Q. Okay. Do you recall specific articles 5 that you would have reviewed? 6 A. The reference that Iconsider to be the 7 most up-to-date in monograph form is a book 8 entitled, "Health Effects of Mineral Dusts" Guthrie 9 and Mossman. That has many chapters, some of which 10 are written by pathologists, some of which are 11 written by other types of medical doctors, 12 mineralogists, public policy. There is a chapter 13 in there by an EPA official, and so on. 14 Q. What made you interested in reviewing 15 literature and taking these courses dealing with 16 the health effects of asbestos? 17 A. It was obvious to me that there was 18 something awry with public policy in our country 19 related to management of asbestos. I thought I 20 might be able to make a contribution to correcting 21 that problem. 22 Q. When did you first have this feeling 23 that there was something awry with public policy? 24 A. Probably back in my pregraduate school \VM ^WoCje., and <^rfisocuite.i, {Jnc. Cftica^o, UttinoU (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021521 68 1 days when I became aware of the disease in shipyard 2 workers. 3 Q. This would have been after 1984? - 4 A. No, before. 5 Q. Before 1984? 6 A. I could see that there was something 7 wrong there in a public policy. 8 Q. What did you believe was wrong in a 9 public policy sense? 10 A. At that time? 11 Q. Initially. 12 A. At that time, I believe - 13 MR. RYAN: Can I just inquire of counsel what 14 the relevancy of this is in light of what this 15 witness is being offered for? 16 MR. GRBITZBR: It is bias, his statements made 17 in his thesis. 18 MR. RYAN: Bias? 19 MR. GRBITZBR: I would like to know where he 20 is coming from. 21 MR. BONEBRAKE: His experience. 22 MR. GREITZER: I would like to know where he 23 is coming from in terms of making statements he has 24 made. and <zrf-i&ociatzi., fjnc. {Ifilctxtjo, OltinoLx (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021522 69 1 MR. RYAN: I am just talking to Joe. 2 BY MR. GREITZER: 3 Q. The first page of the abstract. Let me 4 show you a document that has 0-3, it says 5 "Abstract" at the top. What is that document? 6 A. This is the abstract for my thesis. 7 Q. And this is your 500-plus page thesis? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And there is twofull paragraphs? 10 A. In the abstract. 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Is it fair to say the second paragraph 14 starts out with, "Public policy issues related 15 largely to the largely unfounded - - I am sorry, I 16 am quoting, "Public policy issues related to the 17 largely unfounded concerns about health hazards of 18 chrysotile asbestos have brought recent attention 19 to New Idria." 20 And then I am going to skip down towards] 21 the last two sentences: "Concern about the 22 possible health hazards of this condition has been 23 greatly overstated. The hazard is negligible. It 24 will be a matter for science and public policy to WM dfiica^o, Ottinolx (312)782-8087 0ne. UCAREF00021523 70 1 gather to find a safe and economic solution to 2 these issues. " ~' 3 A. Yes. ' 4 Q. That's contained in, what I would 5 describe, as the overall summary of your 500-page 6 thesis? 7 A. That's correct. - 8 Q. Let's go back to these public policy 9 issues then. This was something that you saw awry 10 prior to 1984? 11 MR. RYAN: Same objection, go ahead. 12 BY MR. GREITZER: 13 Q. Is that correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. What did you think was awry in the 16 public policy regarding asbestos? 17 A. We were not protecting our citizens from 18 disease caused by occupational activities during 19 war time, that is, shipbuilding. There should have 20 been a way to build safe ships without exposing 21 shipyard workers to disease. 22 Q. Did you have any opinion in this prel984 23 time period about what efforts were being made 24 regarding safety and asbestos? ^WoCfz, <zffoi.cnSrz.xc} and. <zd)i.iociatci., }na. dfiLcayo, Ottinoi* # (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021524 71 1 A. NO. 2 Q. Did you have any understanding of any . 3 safety precautions regarding workers and asbestos 4 in the 1970s or early 1980s? . 5 A. Probably not. Other than what I might 6 have read in a news article. 7 Q. The public policy issue that you just 8 stated dealt with concerns about protecting workers 9 during the war years, is that correct? 10 A. That's right. 11 Q. The public policy issues you describe in 12 your abstract deal with present health concerns? 13 A. Specifically at New Idria, California. 14 Q. Do you have a concern about the public 15 policy regarding the asbestos at New Idria? 16 A. Yes, I do. 17 Q. What is that? 18 A. I am concernedthat theEnvironmental 19 Protection Agency is wasting our taxpayers' money 20 in mitigation of a hazard that is so negligible 21 that they should be expending their funds elsewhere 22 in a way this might make a positive impact on 23 people's lives. 24 Q. Why do you feel that it is a waste of ^WoCfe., and c^f-uociatz*, Ona. Chicago, Ottinoix (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021525 72 1 money? 2 A. Because the hazard is negligible. , 3 Q. What's your basis for stating that the 4 hazard of the asbestos from the New Idria mine is 5 negligible? 6 MR. RYAN: Objection. Talking about the KCAC 7 mine? 8 BY MR. GREITZBR: 9 Q. Let's go back. 10 MR. RYAN: There is a confusion in 11 terminology, which is very important. You 12 understand the breadth of the New Idria site as 13 opposed to the KCAC mine. 14 MR. GREITZER: I want to confirm with counsel, 15 when we talk about KCAC, we are referring to the 16 Union Carbide mine. 17 MR. RYAN: That's fine. 18 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 19 BY MR. GREITZER: 20 Q. Is that your specific - 21 MR. RYAN: You said the New Idria mine. 22 MR. GREITZER: I am just reading off of his 23 abstract where it talks about New Idria. 24 MR. RYAN: But not the New Idria mine. ,^WoCfe., <zffo*.nrtxcj anti c^nocuitci One. C&icago, fJCtinot* (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021526 73 1 MR. GREITZER: Right. It doesn't talk about 2 KCAC, in particular. '. 3 BY MR. GREITZER: 4 Q. So I guess my question is, does your 5 public policy concern deal with the KCAC mine? 6 A. No, it does not. 7 Q. Why doesn't it deal with the KCAC mine? 8 A. The perceived public health hazard that 9 the environmental agency has responded to has to 10 deal with drainage of asbestos particles into the 11 California aqueduct, which is in the San Joaquin 12 Valley in the watershed of the Los Gettos Creek. 13 KCAC mine is on the other side of the 14 range, and the drainage, if any, from the KCAC mine 15 does not go into the California aqueduct. 16 Q. Your concern about the asbestos fibers 17 going into the waterways, you are not dealing with 18 the KCAC mine, is that correct? 19 A. No. 20 MR. RYAN: You said "his concern," it is not, 21 you understand, it is not his concern. 22 BY MR. GREITZER: 23 Q. His concern with the public policy 24 issues don't deal with the KCAC mine, is that W///A <Wo[f, <zffoi.nljEXC) and, c^foociatei, {Jna. Chicago, OCCinoix (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021527 74 1 correct? 2 A. No. 3 Q. No, it is not -- - 4 A. Yes, the concerns do not involve the 5 KCAC mine because of the drainage patterns in that 6 part of California. 7 Q. These other minesdealing with asbestos, 8 is it chrysotile asbestos in those other mines? 9 A. Yes, it is. 10 Q. Is it the same type of chrysotile found 11 in those mines as in the KCAC mine? 12 A. Yes, it is. 13 Q. So if the KCAC mine was in the waterflow 14 area, you would think that the EPA's concern would 15 be unfounded? 16 MR. RYAN: Objection, it is speculative. You 17 may answer. 18 THE WITNESS: Do you want to ask that again? 19 BY MR. GREITZER: 20 Q. The concern that the EPA has is with the 21 chrysotile fiber getting into the waterway, is that 22 correct? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. The chrysotile fiber that's getting into \VM ^WoCft, <c/^osnJre.X0 and c^f-iiociatzi, }nc. Cdieago. OttinoU (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021528 75 1 the waterway is the same type of chrysotile fiber 2 found at the KCAC mine? 3 A. That's correct. - 4 Q. So it would be fair to say then that you 5 don't believe that the fiber from the KCAC mine 6 poses a significant health hazard? 7 A. That's correct. i 8 Q. Do you believe that the asbestos fiber 9 from the KCAC mine poses any health hazard? 10 A. No. 11 MR. RYAN: No, it does not pose any health 12 hazard? 13 BY MR. GREITZER: 14 Q. You don't believe it poses any health 15 hazard, is that correct? 16 A. That is correct. I do not believe that 17 the chrysotile from the KCAC mine poses any health 18 hazards. 19 Q. What's the basis for that statement? 20 A. The perceived health hazard as stated in 21 the abstract has to do with what is known as 22 fluvial transport of asbestos particles. Fluvial 23 transport means down the river into the California 24 aqueduct. That water goes to users, drinking water WM ,(l/Vo(jtr <zf^oi.e.n(je.X(j and czrfiioeiaiti fine. {IfiiccujOt fJttinol* (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021529 76 1 1 users, downstream. 2 The perceived hazard is that ingestion,, 3 not respiration, but about ingestion of chrysotile 4 asbestos fibers in drinking water might have a 5 health impact. I believe there is no evidence to 6 support that at all. 7 Q. And what's the basis for that1 8 conclusion? 9 MR. RYAN: What's his basis for saying there 10 is no evidence? 11 BY MR. GREITZER: 12 Q. For, that it creates, that there is no 13 potential problem from ingesting. 14 A. I have never read a study which shows 15 that that's the case, nor have any of my 16 mineralogical or medical collegues ever referred to 17 any such study. So I believe that there is no 18 study that shows that hazard. Therefore, the 19 hazard from fluvial transport of chrysotile 20 asbestos from the New Idria district is overstated. 21 Q. Do you have an opinion regarding the j 22 respiration of chrysotile from the KCAC mine? 23 A. Yes. 24 MR. RYAN: You are asking him his medical WM <l/Vofe, czffoi.tn&e'Uj and czrf-i-ioaiatti, Cticajo, OitinoU (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021530 77 1 opinion? He is a geologist. 2 MR. GREITZER: I understand that, and he is 3 basically rendering a medical opinion in his 4 thesis. 5 MR. RYAN: No, he isn't. 6 MR. GREITZER: As to the ingestion. 7 MR. RYAN: No, he isn't, clearly. 8 done that. He has not entered a medical opinion 9 anywhere. 10 MR. GREITZER: It says the -- when somebody 11 makes the statement that the hazard is negligible, 12 that, to me, is making a medical conclusion that, 13 medically, there is no detrimental impact. 14 MR. RYAN: Well, there is no sense in us 15 arguing about it, but I don't think that's true, 16 and I think it's been testified about on the record 17 already in this deposition, but I state my 18 objection anyway to any questions of this witness. 19 And as I said before, I am willing to 20 stipulate with you that he will not give any 21 medical opinion, because he is not competent to 22 give a medical opinion on the issues that were 23 raised in the expert disclosure. He is not a 24 doctor. WM .,and <zdf-iu>eiatti jnc. dtiica^o, {JCtinoli 0 (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021531 78 1 BY MR. GREITZER: 2 Q. You don't hold yourself out to be a 3 medical doctor, is that correct? - 4 A. I am not a medical doctor. 5 Q. You don't have any special training in 6 pathology, is that correct? 7 A. That's correct. : 8 Q. Or pulmonary medicine? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. Or oncology? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. Radiology? 13 A. No training. 14 Q. Subject to Mr. Ryan's objection, do you 15 have an opinion as to whether the respiration of 16 chrysotile from the KCAC mine poses a health 17 hazard? 18 A. Let me answer your question in the 19 context of that paragraph. I have a public policy 20 opinion, not a medical opinion. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. Public policy opinion is that as a 23 matter of public policy, the hazard has been 24 overstated, and we would be better to expend our WW/A ^WoCfe, ,and G^f-noaiakzi Jna. C&Lcayo, fJCCinois # (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021532 79 1 scarce resources elsewhere. 2 MR. GRBITZER: Can you read back my prior 3 question? ~ 4 (WHEREUPON, the record was read by 5 the reporter as requested.) 6 MR. RYAN: To workers? 7 BY MR. GRBITZER: 8 Q. To an individual who breathes in 9 chrysotile from the KCAC mine. 10 MR. RYAN: Including Dr. Van Baalen. 11 BY MR. GRBITZER: 12 Q. Including Dr. Van Baalen. 13 A. Do I have an opinion on that? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What's that opinion? 17 A. The opinion is that the health hazard is 18 negligible. . 19 Q. Why do you believe that the health 20 hazard is negligible? 21 A. Are you asking for a medical opinion? 22 Q. I am asking for your opinion as to why 23 you believe it's negligible. 24 MR. RYAN: Same objection. WM ^WoCfe, <zffoizn&e.xg and c^rf-iAoeiatci, iJne. dkicajo, Ottinoi* (312) 702-8087 U CAR E F00021533 80 1 BY THE WITNESS: 2 A. I am not aware of any studies, either . 3 that I have reviewed myself or that I have learned 4 about in discussion with professional collegues, 5 that point towards an incidence of disease related 6 to respiration of chrysotile asbestos from the KCAC 7 mine. - 8 BY MR. GREITZER: 9 Q. Is it fair to say that it is your 10 opinion that the chrysotile from the KCAC mine is 11 different from chrysotile from other mines 12 throughout the world? 13 A. Yes, it is. 14 Q. And what's the difference between the 15 chrysotile from the KCAC mine, and chrysotile from 16 other parts of the world? 17 MR. RYAN: Talking about from a mineralogical 18 standpoint? 19 BY MR. GREITZER: 20 Q. Prom a mineralogical standpoint. 21 A. There are two important differences. 22 One is the extremely short fiber length. The other 23 is the high purity of the deposit, that is, absence 24 of additional minerals in the asbestos ore. Their I WM ,^WoCjt, tcfxfoscn&c'uj and czrfs.iocia.tci ffnc. G&ic&yo, GClinoi* (312) 782'8087 UCAREF00021534 81 1 concentrations are very low. 2 Q. Again, I apologize, extremely short'.' . 3 what do you mean by "extremely short"? 4 A. Five microns or under. 5 Q. Is that length based on your personal 6 excavation and review of material in that area? 7 A. Yes. - 8 Q. Is it based on the review of any other 9 literature in terms of fiber length? 10 A. Yes. Yes, there is other published 11 work. 12 Q. Are there are published works indicated 13 in the bibliography to your thesis? 14 A. They are cited. 15 Q. What do you mean by thedifference in 16 purity, or more pure? 17 MR. RYAN: Excuse me. I don't think he said 18 difference in purity. He talked about the extent 19 of - - 20 BY MR. GREITZER: 21 Q. You believe - 22 A. I am talking about thepresence of 23 accessory minerals that are often found in other 24 chrysotile asbestos deposits, which are are (l/VoCfii, <zf^oizn(jz'U} and c^f-izociaka, One. Ckica^o, Dctinoii (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021535 82 1 generally absent at New Idria. 2 Q. Which items are missing from the KCAC 3 mine that would be present in other chrysotile 4 mines ? 5 A. Tremolite, talc, magnesite, are three 6 important minerals that are found as accessories in 7 the Canadian and Vermont deposits, for example. 8 Q. Do you have an opinion as to whether the 9 fact that they are extremely short has any impact 10 on their respirability? 11 MR. RYAN: Same objection. You are asking for 12 a medical opinion. 13 BY THE WITNESS: 14 A. As I understand respirability, that's 15 the ability to be inhaled, not the ability to be 16 ejected from the body by the body's defense 17 mechanisms. Is that what you are asking? 18 BY MR. GREITZER: 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. The ability to be inhaled? 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. The shorter the fiber, the more 23 plausible it is that it could be inhaled. 24 Q. You mentioned exhaled. Do you have an YYW/a ^WoCje, <zf^oi.e.n(je.\cj and c^f-ocuxtc, One. Cf, icayo, OttinoU (312) 782-8037 UCAREF00021536 83 1 opinion as to the ability to be exhaled or removed 2 from the body? 3 MR. RYAN: Actually, he said "ejected." 4 BY MR. GREITZER: 5 Q. Ejected. 6 A. I believe that the body's defense 7 mechanisms in the lungs work better with small 8 particles than they do with long fibers. 9 Q. And is that based on your review of 10 medical literature? 11 A. Yes. The short course that I mentioned 12 earlier on Health Effects of Mineral Dust, a great 13 deal of time was spent talking about something 14 called the respiratory ladder, which is the series 15 of mechanisms that the body uses to get junk out of 16 the lungs. 17 Q. What was the formal title of that 18 program? 19 A. Health Effects of Mineral Dusts. 20 Q. Where was that given? 21 A. It was given at Nantucket, 22 Massachusetts, immediately preceding the national 23 meeting of the Geological Society of America in 24 1993, I think. \\M O/Votfe, <zf?oi.nrtxcj and c^f-aociatzi, (Jnc. C&tcayo, Ottinol* 0 (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021537 84 1 Q. Do you remember who gave that lecture? 2 A. There were several speakers who talked 3 about the respiratory ladder. That was the major 4 topic of the day. 5 Q. Do you have information from that 6 meeting in your file? 7 A. There is a published monograph from that 8 meeting. 9 Q. When you talk monograph, is that - 10 A. It's a book that's thicker than my 11 thesis and even harder to read. 12 Q. Do you have an opinion as to the -- You 13 mentioned purity of the chrysotile from the KCAC 14 mine. 15 Do you have an opinion as to the impact 16 on its purity on health hazards? 17 MR. RYAN: Same objection. 18 BY THE WITNESS: 19 A. I believe that the health effects of 20 chrysotile as a mineral are minimal. Other 21 minerals have differing health effects. 22 BY MR. GREITZER: 23 Q. Again, that's based on these symposiums, 24 in the medical literature that you reviewed? YW'/A ,O/VoCfz, <z/x?oi.znJje%0 and czrfuociaUi One. Chicago, O[[inoil (312)782-9097 UCAREF00021538 85 1 A. Yes, my reading of thescientific 2 literature. 3 Q. During your graduate work training from 4 1987 to 1989, was asbestos, in general, the focus 5 of any particular courses? 6 A. No. 7 MR. RYAN: Again, when you are talking about 8 asbestos, you are talking about the family - 9 MR. GREITZER: The family, yes. 10 BY THE WITNESS: 11 A. The answer remains no. 12 BY MR. GREITZER: 13 Q. Is there a reason that you chose the New 14 Idria region for your thesis? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Why? 17 A. When one isselecting a thesistopic, 18 one is looking for some area to make a unique 19 contribution to science. 20 Since my thesis topic was to be a field 21 investigation, I looked for a field area that had 22 unique properties, and would enable me to make an 23 original contribution. 24 Q. What were the uniqueproperties of the \VM zfi^o&cnf?fUj and c^f-xxociatti, f/na. Ckctyo, fJttinoU (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021539 86 1 New Idria area? 2 A. There is a long list of unique ' 3 properties cited in the chapters of the thesis. 4 Q. What, in particular, that primarily lead 5 you to New Idria? i 6 MR. RYAN: Talking about in the beginning? 7 BY MR. GREITZER: ' 8 Q. In the beginning. 9 A. Why don't we go there, yes. I was 10 interested in the occurrence of titanium-bearing 11 minerals contained in a region that was otherwise 12 devoid of titanium. 13 That is, this asbestos deposit, 14 chrysotile asbestos deposit has, essentially, zero 15 concentration of the element titanium. Yet here 16 and there in the body were found blocks of rock 17 containing minerals that were very high in 18 titanium, especially titanium garnets. 19 Q. Did you have an understanding initially 20 that asbestos deposits were located at the New 21 Idria area? 22 A. No, I didn't. 23 Q. Is that something you came to discover 24 once you began your research? <~WoCft, <zffos&n(jt'Uj and ez/f-aociatti, {jna. ChcajO, (JCCinoU (3121782-soar UCAREF00021540 87 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Would it be fair to say then that 3 asbestos was not an initial focus of your research 4 at New Idria? 5 A. Not at all. 6 Q. At what point did it become an aspect of 7 your research? 8 A. Once I visited thedistrict, and became 9 aware of the local geology. 10 Q. Was that just personal physical 11 inspection, or was that as a result of reading 12 documents or talking to individuals? 13 A. Personal visit. 14 Q. What percentage of your thesis would you 15 say focuses on chrysotile? 16 A. 15 percent. 17 Q. And a portion of that 15 percent deals 18 with the KCAC mine area, in particular? 19 A. No, I never made specific studies of the 20 KCAC mine for the thesis. 21 Q. Did you ever talk to anybody fromUnion 22 Carbide or KCAC regarding any work that they had 23 done regarding asbestos in that area? 24 A. Yes. WM ,^WoCjt, czf^oi.e.ndrt.'Uj and czrf-iioaiatti One. Chicago, Dttinoit (312)782-8007 UCAREF00021541 88 1 Q. Do you recall who you spoke with? 2 A. Roger Hopper, the mine superintendent. 3 Q. Is that KCAC at that point in time? 4 A. Yes. I should say it in the context of 5 all these things, my entire dealings with the New 6 Idria district have been during the time period 7 when the mine was the KCAC mine. 8 And at some point in the past, but I 9 don't know, it became the KCAC mine from a 10 preexisting organization. j 11 Q. Were you physically at the KCAC mine? 12 A. Have I physically been there? 13 Q. Yes. 14 A. Yes. I 15 Q. About how many times? 16 A. Five to 10 times. 17 Q. Was there mining occurring during any of! 18 those times? 19 A. During most of them. 20 Q. How were they mining it, generally? 21 MR. RYAN: You want a description. 22 BY MR. GREITZER: j 23 Q. What type of machinery? 24 A. The mining is very simple. Theregion \VM .,^1/VoCfe, ezffoitnJjtxcj and cjtyiiociate One. dPiiccL^o, OCCinoi* (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021542 89 1 is covered with loose, unconsolidated material, 2 which is essentially scooped up with power shovels 3 and loaded into a truck. They do one screening 4 through a grizzly. A grizzly is basically a grill 5 work that will get out any boulders that are 6 cantaloupe size or larger. Everything else is 7 loaded into the truck and sent to the mill in King 8 City. 9 Q. How far is King City? 10 A. 56 miles I think. 11 Q. And that's trucked down? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Were the workers who were doing the 14 physical mining wearing any protective clothing or 15 respirators? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Did the mining of that material or the 18 placing it in the trucks, did that create visible 19 dust ? 20 A. Minimal. 21 MR. RYAN: Talking about visible to the human 22 eye? 23 BY MR. GREITZER: 24 Q. Visible to the human eye. WM and c^fi&ociatzi., One. Cfticayo, OttinoU (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021543 90 1 A. Minimal. i i 2 Q. Were they transported in open trucks? 3 Can you describe what kind of truck it would have 4 been? 5 A. The trucks are hopper trucks, that is, 6 you pour material in the top and there is a little 7 hatch in the bottom so you can drain it out. In 8 fact, it is the same type of truck that the local 9 tomato growers use to transport tomatos. 10 The ore is covered with some sort of 11 fabric cover, so that when the truck is driving 12 down the highway, it doesn't lose the ore from the 13 truck. 14 Q. How many trips did you make out to the 15 New Idria area? 16 A. Five to 10, during the entire thesis 17 research period. 18 Q. Can you estimate how many days total you 19 would have spent out there? 20 A. The sum total of all the trips? 21 Q. Sum total of all the trips. 22 A. It would be measured in months. 23 would be a few months. Probably -- 24 Q. More than 60 days? WM <1/l/oCfe, eO^oi&n&txg and c^j-iociatz\, One. CHicayo, Ottinoli. (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021544 91 1 A. Oh, yes. Between 60 days and six 2 months . ", 3 Q. Did you ever go to the mill in Ring City] 4 where the asbestos was being trucked to? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. How often did you go there? 7 A. I have been to the mill twice1that I 8 recall. One time has already been mentioned. 9 Q. That was actually -- what was the 10 individual's name? Would that have been with Mr. 11 Will, is that correct? Maybe I am mistaken. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. It was with Mr. Will? 14 A. Yes. And on the other time, which has 15 also been previously mentioned, was my very first 16 opportunity to meet Roger Hopper. He wanted to 17 meet me personally before giving me permission to 18 use the mine road for access. 19 Q. What was your understanding of what was 20 being done with the chrysotile at the mill? 21 A. At the mill? 22 Q. Yes. 23 MR. RYAN: You want him to describe the 24 process from dumping the ore? .,and c^f-i&ociate jjnc. {JCtinots # (312) 7Q2'8087 UCAREF00021545 92 1 BY MR. GREITZER: 2 Q. Just, generally, what they were actually 3 doing with it. 4 A. Basically, what they wanted to do at the 5 mill was to grind the chrysotile up into small 6 fibers, and to remove the impurities. 7 Q. Take a look back at your CV again. Your 8 academic positions held. Electronics technician, 9 is that NASA? 10 A. NASA, yes. OSO-D was the Solar 11 Observatory, fourth attempt. 12 Q. What were your responsibilities at that 13 j ob? 14 A. I was an electrical engineer and I was 15 responsible for calibration of the ultraviolet 16 micrometer and testing of the power supply for the 17 ultraviolet test. 18 Q. Was this while you were pursuing your 19 undergraduate degree? 20 A. I had that as a part-time job during my 21 undergraduate career and as a full-time job in, at 22 least, one summer between, probably, between my 23 junior and senior year. 24 Q. Between 1966 and 1970, did you have any ,^Wotjz, <cffoi.znJje.rj and. <cd}naaLatci jjnc. {l&icago, Ottinoii (312) 782-8087 . UCAREF00021546 93 1 full-time jobs? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What were they? 4 A. I was working atHarvard University in 5 the, actually, the organization that predated the 6 Office for Information Technology. It was a 7 precursor organization that was renamed Office for 8 Information Technology in 1970. 9 Q. Was that a paid position there? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. From 1970 to 1987 it says you were a 12 teaching fellow? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. I assume that that's not the title of 15 professor or assistant professor? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. What were your responsibilities as a 18 teaching fellow? 19 A. It depended on the course. In the case 20 of geology courses, I was alaboratory instructor. 21 I ran field trips, I prepared quizzes, graded them, 22 graded term papers, consulted with the students one] 23 on one for things that were unclear to them based 24 on the lectures. .\,OA/oCfe, d^oitn&e.'Uj and czrfiiuoeuxU 0na. Cfticayo, OClinoh (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021547 94 1 I talked, with the professor in charge of 2 the course as to progress of the students, and 3 things that they might be having trouble with. 4 Q. What's the ratio between geology and 5 computer science? 6 A. During that period, probably, roughly 7 equal. ; 9 Q. Did that remain constant through the 17 9 years, or did it start as computer science and then 10 become geology? 11 A. Started as computer science and became 12 geology. 13 Q. I assume then that during the time as a 14 teaching fellow, you were also working full-time at 15 the consulting and planning office? 16 A. That's right. 17 Q. Between 1987 and 1992, I assume you 18 weren't teaching because you were working on your 19 master's degree, is that a fair statement? 20 A. In - 21 MR. RYAN: What years did you say? 22 BY MR. GREITZER: 23 Q. Between 1987 and 1992? 24 MR. RYAN: He received his master's in '89. ^WoCft, <zffoi.tnrvuj anA cztyi.iociatc.i., 0na. dtiicayo, Oltinoi* (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021548 95 1 BY MR. GREITZER: 2 Q- So between. 1987 and 1989, is there a- 3 reason you were no longer a teaching fellow? 4 A. In graduate study in sciences at 5 Harvard, being a teaching fellow is considered a 6 requirement early on in your graduate student 7 career. ; 8 As you become a senior graduate student 9 and become more focused with thesis research work, 10 you, generally, set those duties aside, focus on 11 finishing the thesis, and other entering graduate 12 students take over the role of teaching fellow. 13 Q. Is that what happened with yourself? 14 A. Yes. That's the pattern at Harvard. 15 Q. 1992 to 1994 you list that you were 16 instructor of a field geology course for continuing 17 education programs sponsored by the University of 18 New Hampshire in the Appalachian Mountain Club? i 19 A. Right. 20 Q. Was this a paid position? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What kind of time commitment was 23 involved? 24 A. This was an annual summer course having \VM <zffoie.nfjvuj and c^fisociatzi., (Jna. Ckicayo, Ottinolx (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021549 96 1 to do with field geology of New Hampshire. 2 Q. What level of education were you ' 3 teaching? Were they high school students, college 4 students, graduate students? 5 A. It was actually a mixture, but there 6 were undergraduates from various colleges around 7 the United States. There were high school science 8 teachers, there were college faculty members, and 9 there were interested laymen, who, as I said 10 before, were interested in the science and in the 11 out-of-doors. 12 Q. As a teaching fellow, or as this 13 instructor in field geology, did any of those 14 courses or teaching deal with asbestos, generally? 15 A. Generally, not. 16 Q. Were there any - 17 A. Wait a minute. Back up. You actually 18 asked two things, and I think I responded to only 19 half of it. Restate the question. I want to make 20 sure I am accurate. 21 Q. From 1970 to 1987, did any of your 22 courses deal with asbestos? When I say generally, 23 I mean - - 24 MR. RYAN: What do you mean when you say "deal and czrf-i.iocLake.1., fjnc. (2&Uayo, {JCtinoii (312) 782-8087 ' UCAREF00021550 97 1 with"? 2 BY MR. GREITZBR: ' 3 Q. Teach, discuss. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What aspects of asbestos would have been 6 discussed while you were a teaching fellow? 7 A. The one course that'sprobably most 8 relevant was the introductory to mineralogy course, 9 that is to say, I became a teaching fellow in the 10 same course that I had previously taken as a 11 student, and the course content evolved. But 12 dealing with the various members of the asbestos 13 family from a mineralogy standpoint was part of the 14 course syllabus. 15 Q. Did you teach anything about the 16 potential health hazards of asbestos in that 17 course? 18 A. Those lectures were given generally by 19 the head professor for the course, and we discussed 20 in small groups or in labs questions about this. 21 THE WITNESS: Can we take five? 22 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had.) 23 BY MR. GREITZBR: 24 Q. Other than the introductory mineralogy VVAYi *~WoCft, <zffozrdj'Uj and cz^fi&oauitei, One. Cflictujo, Ottinol* 27 782-8087 . UCAREF00021551 98 1 courses and the teaching fellow, was there any 2 other coverage of asbestos health issues? 3 MR. RYAN: During? 4 BY MR. GREITZER: 5 Q. As a teaching fellow, 1970 to 1987. 6 A. Not that I remember specifically at this 7 time. Well, no. . 8 Q. As a field instructor from 1982 to 1984, 9 did you talk about or lecture on asbestos in 10 potential health issues? 11 A. As a supplementary issue in the courses, 12 yes. That was not the main thrust of the course, 13 because we were talking about the geology of New 14 Hampshire, and New Hampshire does not have asbestos 15 deposits. However, Vermont does. 16 Q. Did any of this field instructor work 17 take place in Vermont? 18 A. No. 19 Q. What's your present position at Harvard? 20 A. Geologist and university administrator. 21 Q. What does it mean to be a geologist at 22 Harvard? 23 A. In my case, I expect to be teaching in 24 the next academic year. WM and. cz/fiioeiata, One. (Ikicayo, fJCtinol* % (312) 7Q2-8087 UCAREF00021552 99 1 Q. Courses in geology, is that correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. For which level ofeducation? 4 A. Undergraduate. 5 Q. Would that be, do you expect to have a 6 title associated with that teaching responsibility? 7 A. Possibly lecturer. . 8 Q. Do you have any plans on becoming some 9 form of a professor, whether associate or 10 assistant, whatever the terminology is at Harvard? 11 A. Harvard would have more to say about 12 that than I would. 13 Q. Would you like to be? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Do you have a course plan at all, either 16 down on paper or in your head, as to what you 17 intend to teach in the next academic year? 18 MR. RYAN: You mean by that which courses? 19 BY MR. GREITZER: 20 Q. Do you have a course you know you are 21 going to teach? 22 A. I would collaborate with other faculty 23 members, and probably it would be on continuing 24 courses. We would probably modify the content, but \VM (l/Uotfe, <z/^oi.tn&XCj and <zdj-izociatei., One. dftictujo, OttinoL*. # (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021553 100 1 mineralogy would still be mineralogy, for example. 2 Q. Do you intend to incorporate in those 3 lectures your thesis and your research on the New 4 Idria area? 5 A. As appropriate. 6 Q. Do you still intend to be, as your 7 full-time job, this administration position at 8 Harvard? 9 A. No, I will do that half time. 10 Q. You list several professional 11 societies. Other than paying dues, do any of these 12 societies have any other requirements to become a 13 member? 14 A. Requirements to become a member? 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. Only the last one. 17 Q. That's the New England Intercollegiate 18 Geological Conference? 19 A. In my opinion, it is a prestigious honor 20 that you don't just get by sending in your dues 21 money. You have to be recognized by your 22 colleagues, which, in this case, would be the 23 faculty members from other geology departments 24 throughout New England, in the northeast, as being (Wotftezrfo&tnlrexg and cpfyi&ociaUi., One. CftUc^o, OttlnoU 012)782-8087 UCAREF00021554 101 1 qualified to do the job. 2 Q. And next year you are going to be the 3 general chair? ~ 4 A. That's right, the conference organizer. 5 MR. GREENWOOD: Which one is that? 6 BY THE WITNESS: 7 A. New England Intercollegiate geological 8 conference. 9 BY MR. GREITZER: 10 Q. Do you hold any positions within any of 11 these professional societies? 12 A. You mean, for example, officer? 13 Q. Officer. 14 A. Not at present. 15 Q. It says you were the founding of the 16 member of the New Hampshire Geological Society? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. Do you hold any executive orofficer 19 position there? 20 A. No. They wanted to nominate me for 21 president, and I turned them down. 22 Q. Have you ever been president? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Do any of these organizations have ^WoCjt, ezfifoAenlrexj and czrf-iiocuxt&s., {Jna. dkica^o, {Jttinoix (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021555 102 1 publications that they put out? 2 A. You are talking about the professional 3 societies? 4 Q. These professional societies. 5 A. Every one of them does, and many of them 6 are prestigious publications. 7 Q. Is there one organization here that you 8 feel is the most prestigious? 9 A. I could say the most prestigious three 10 would be the American Geophysical Union, the 11 Geological Society of America, and the 12 Mineralogical Society of America. I couldn't say 13 which of those would be the most prestigious. The 14 oldest of that group is the Geological Society of 15 America. 16 Q. What types of publications does the 17 American Geophysical Union have? : 18 A. Professional referreed journals. 19 Q. So in order to be published, you need to 20 submit an article and have it review? 21 A. Peer review. 22 Q. Do you recall having read any articles 23 from that organization dealing with asbestos and 24 health hazards? WM H/Votfe, ezffo&s.n&e.'U} and c^fiAoauxtzi., {Jna. Clica^o. UttinoU (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021556 103 1 A- Specifically from American Geophysical 2 Onion on asbestos? 3 Q. Correct. 4 A. I don't remember any. 5 Q. Do you have any recollection from any of 6 these societies' publications reading articles 7 dealing with the potential health hazards of 8 asbestos ? 9 A. Yes, especially the Mineralogical 10 Society of America, but also the Mineralogical 11 Society of Canada. 12 Q. Do you recall any specific articles from 13 those? 14 A. Yes. The publication that I mentioned 15 earlier in the context of the short course, Health 16 Effects of Mineral Dusts by Guthrie & Mossman 17 that's a monograph published by the Mineralogical 18 Society of America, in their series Reviews in 19 Mineralogy. 20 Q. Any other articles in particular? 21 A. There is a publication by the 22 Mineralogical Society of America called the 23 American Mineralogist. This is a referreed 24 journal. And there have been articles over the Wi?/A <l/\Zo[ft, and czrfi.sociate.i, iJno. CAieage, OttinoU (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021557 104 1 past several years about various aspects of 2 asbestos minerals, including health effects. 3 Q. Do you recall any article specifically 4 dealing with chrysotile? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Did any of those chrysotile articles 7 deal with the potential health hazards? : 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Do yourecall specifically what articles 10 those would have been? 11 A. I would refer you to anarticle by 12 George Guthrie in the American Mineralogist, early 13 '90s, the citation possibly is in the bibliography 14 to my thesis. Look under G., and you will find 15 out. 16 Q. Do you have a copy of your thesis with 17 you today? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Do you have it memorized? 20 A. I am prepared to answer questions on any 21 aspect of it. 22 MR. RYAN: He was joking. 23 BY MR. GRBITZER: 24 Q. I was definitely joking. There is an WWi and <z/j-i.u>cu3.te.\, One. d&icayo, OttlnoU (312)782-8097 UCAREF00021558 105 1 article listed in your bibliography of your thesis, 2 Guthrie, J.D., and Mossman, 1993 Health Effects of 3 Mineral Dusts? 4 A. That's the monograph. That's a fat 5 book. George Guthrie had a paper in the American 6 Mineralogist in an earlier year, possibly around 7 1991, the citation for that paper could be obtained 8 from probably the bibliography of the monograph, or 9 other places. Those are referreed publications. 10 Q. Are there any other articles that you 11 can recall specifically dealing with chrysotile and 12 health hazards or potential health hazards? 13 A. I can't give you the citations here. 14 There are other articles, and as I said, especially 15 in the publication Mineralogical Society of America 16 and Mineralogical Society of Canada. 17 Q. You list other organizations, Lowell 18 Observatory. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What are your responsibilities on the 21 advisory board of that organization? 22 A. I am a member of the trustee advisory 23 board, and my duties are to provide management 24 advice, and financial recommendations, WVA nvoCfi, ezffoitnljvu} and <z^faociati., 17na. Cdicago, (JClinolt (312)782-8007 UCAREF00021559 106 .1 recommendations on scientific strategies to be I 2 pursued by the organization to the trustee. 3 Q. And this goes back to your training in 4 astronomy as opposed to geology? 5 A. Actually, that role combines my training 6 in astronomy and geology. That is an astronomical 7 observatory. But as I also mentioned earlier, 8 astronomy studies bodies other than the earth, and 9 is now a very hot topic mainly due to the success 10 of the space program. 11 Q. You also list the Mt. Washington 12 Observatory, as being a trustee and on the 13 executive committee. 14 What are your responsibilities for that 15 organization? 16 A. In that case, I am a trustee, and I have 17 a fiduciary responsibility to the organization, and 18 to its governing entities. That is a 19 meteorological observatory as opposed to astronomical observatory. 20 j 21 Q. That would tie more into geological | 22 training as opposed an astronomy? 23 A. Yes. One of the things the Mt. 24 Washington Observatory does is work on the general ^WoCft, <zf^oznrzxcj and. c^iiociatti., One. C&icayo, ZJCCinoli (312)762-8087 UCAREF00021560 107 1 geology and the astronomy at the Mt. Washington, 2 New Hampshire. 3 Q. We discussed earlier that you have 4 served as a consultant or serving as a consultant 5 for Union Carbide and some of its representatives. 6 Are there any other offerings or 7 companies that you consult for that aren't 8 indicated on your CV? 9 A. On any topic whatsoever? 10 Q. On any topic whatsoever. Let's start, 11 generally, and then we will see. 12 A. Yes. Put it this way: I have in the 13 past. 14 Q. Who have you consulted for in the past? 15 A. One example is Educom, which is a 16 national consortium having to do with management of 17 information technology at colleges and university. 18 I did a consulting assignment for them at a pair of 19 small colleges in Minnesota. 20 Q. Any other organizations or corporations? 21 A. At present, none. If I thought 22 carefully, I might be able to remember other past 23 examples. 24 Q. Have you ever consulted for anyone other WM dxfo&znlje.'uj and c^J-iioeiatii., One. CfiUcyo, OUinoU rn (312) 782-8087 UGAREF00021561 108 1 than what we have already discussed about for 2 matters that were either in litigation or -' 3 potentially in litigation? 4 A. No. 5 Q. So it would be fair to say that your 6 consultations with Union Carbide is your only 7 experience in consulting for companies involved in 8 litigation? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. The second page of your CV, the only 11 section there is listed as "Recent publications and 12 lectures," is that correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. It says "Recent." Are there lectures 15 and publications that are not included on this 16 list? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Would it be publications andlectures? 19 A. Yes, both. 20 Q. Is there a reason you don't include your 21 other publications and lectures? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Why is that? 24 A. I didn't think they were relevant to VV///A tyVoCft, ezffoitn&txej and c^faioeiatti, 0na. {Jiicayo, Ottlnela (312) 782-Q0B7 UCAREF00021562 109 1 this discussion. 2 Q. So it is my understanding then from that 3 statement that this CV, which has been marked Van 4 Baalen l, was prepared for purposes of consulting 5 and testimony in this litigation? 6 A. This March 1995 CV was prepared for this 7 purpose. 8 Q. Did anyone assist you in the preparation 9 of the CV? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Did you consult with anybody in the 12 preparation of the CV? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Did anyone tell you what they would like 15 the format of your CV to be? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Did anyone tell you what they would like 18 to have included in your CV? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Do you have other CVs that include all 21 publications and lectures? 22 A. I probably don't have a complete CV with 23 other publications, no. 24 Q. If you can, can you tell me how many WW/A *l/VoCfz, and <zdfociatei, tfrta. Cfiica^o, UCCinoit (312)762-8087 UCAREF00021563 110 1 other publications you have that aren't included 2 here? 3 A. There are probably three or four, others i 4 that are not listed here. 5 Q. Do you recall the titles of those? 6 A. Not the exact titles. 7 Q. Generally. . 8 A. Yeah. There was 1989, second 9 publication in 1989, having to do with garnets at 10 New Idria. The subject matter was somewhat 11 similar, very similar to the 1994 publication, 12 Chlorite-Diopside-Ti-garnet rock from New Idria, 13 California. That 1989 paper represented an 14 earlier stage in my thinking on the same topic. 15 There was a paper in probably 1992, also 16 having to do with titanium rich garnets, but in 17 that case, worldwide occurrences and not restricted 18 to New idria. That was about 1992. 19 Both of those -- well, let's see, no, 20 the first one, second 1989 one, was for American 21 Geophysical Union, and the 1992, or thereabouts 22 paper was for the Geological Society of America. 23 There was a 1994 publication for 24 something called the Geochemical Society that was WM ez/^oitn&ticj and. c^nociatzs., One. Ctilcayo, fJltinoU 0 (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021564 111 1 for a conference in Europe in Che summer of 1994. 2 So that was published in the Mineralogical 3 Magazine, which is a British publication, in 1994. 4 So that's three. 5 None of these had anything to do with | 6 chrysotile, or asbestos, or anything. They mainly 7 dealt with garnet and other minerals. 8 Q. Other than the lectures that we talked 9 about in connection with your positions at Harvard 10 and your field courses, are there any other 11 lectures that you would have given in the past that 12 aren't included on the CV? 13 A. Lectures on any topic? 14 Q. On any topic. 15 A. Yes . 16 Q. Can you give me some examples of those, 17 please. 18 A. A large number of lectures over the 19 years on aspects of computer science, computer ! 20 networking, automated library systems, that sort of 21 thing. 22 Q. Anything dealing with geology, 23 generally? 24 A. None that I remember today. <^Woffz, ctfozzn&t'Uj and cz^fnociatea, One. dfiicayo, fJttinoii (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021565 112 1 Q. And therefore, I assume, that there were 2 none that were given on the topic of asbestos? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. First document in yourthesis, which is 5 now, is it, does it have a new title because you 6 have your Ph.D.? 7 A. No, I do, but the thesis doesn't. 8 Q. Fair enough. The second, it appears to 9 be a lecture, 1995, Asbestos and Health, given to 10 the Boston Bay Group, in March of 1995? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What is the Boston Bay Group? 13 A. It is a local scientific society inthe 14 Boston area. 15 Q. Are you a member of that group? 16 A. No, I am not. 17 Q. Is there a reason you are not a member 18 of that group? 19 A. Yes . 20 Q. Why is that? 21 A. I don't have enough time. 22 Q. You say "scientific." What types of 23 degrees or training do the individuals who are 24 members of that have, if you are aware? ^WoCfe, and czrfiAociatei., One. ^fiicago, dJ[[inoi* (312) 782-8087 UGAREF00021566 113 1 A. I actually don't know the backgrounds of 2 all the members, but I can say, in general, that 3 the society invites people from local universities 4 to come and talk about various aspects of science, 5 and the discussions are carried on at a 6 professional or near professional level, that is, 7 there is a great deal of expertise in that Boston 8 Bay Group. 9 Q. How is it that you came about to give a 10 lecture on asbestos and health to that 11 organization? 12 A. I was an invited speaker. 13 Q. Who invited you? 14 A. If not the president, then the 15 conference chair of that group. 16 Q. Do you recall who that would have been? 17 A. First name is Jane, and I don't remember 18 her last name. 19 Q. Did you prepare any written material for 20 that lecture? 21 A. No. It was an oral address. 22 Q. Did they ask you to specifically discuss 23 asbestos and health? 24 A. They asked me what topic I would choose, .i7ne Ottinoix 0 (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021567 114 1 if I were to speak before the society. 2 Q. Let me take a step back. Do you know , | 3 why they came to you to speak? - 4 A. No. 5 Q. Did you have friends or collegues that 6 are in the Boston Bay Group? 7 A. Yes, I knew one of the members 8 beforehand. I suspect that he submitted my name to 9 the conference, or the speaker organizer chair. 10 Q. When you were contacted, did they give 11 you a general area that they would like you to 12 discuss? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What general area did they give you? 15 A. Science. 16 Q. And they asked you what area you would 17 most like to talk about? 18 A. They asked me to think about it, and 19 give them a decision. 20 Q. What decisions did yougive them? 21 A. That I should talk aboutasbestos, 22 health and public policy. 23 Q. Why did you choose that topic? 24 A. I thought that would be of greatest MWi O/Votfz, <zffoi.en&txcj and czOitociabci., One. CfiUa^o, QttinoU (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021568 115 1 interest to the largest number of people in the 2 group. 3 Q. Why did you think that that group would 4 be interested in asbestos, health and public 5 policy? 6 A. I think that most people who are 7 scientifically literate are very concerned with the 8 public policy aspects of science today. And I 9 assume that they would feel that way, too. 10 Q. How did you prepare to give this 11 lecture? Actually, how long was the address? 12 A. With questions, it probably ran two 13 hours. 14 Q. How much of it was your prepared 15 presentation? 16 A. Probably something over an hour talking, 17 and then an extended period of question and 18 answer. 19 Q. Did you talk about your thesis and the 20 research you did at New Idria? 21 A. In part. 22 Q. Did you do any new research -- Actually, 23 how long from the time you were asked to give this 24 speech and the major decision to give it on WoCfe, <zffoizn!jzxc} and c^fnociatzi, One. Cdieoao. fJltlnoii (312) 7B2-B087 UCAREF00021569 116 1 asbestos and health, from that point in time, until 2 you gave the speech? ', 3 A. Probably three months. 4 Q. What did you do during that three months 5 to prepare to give that lecture? 6 A. I did nothing specific to prepare for 7 that lecture, but I did other things in the 8 intervening time. That was a scheduling delay not 9 a research delay. 10 Q. Did you review any of the medical 11 literature in preparation of giving your lecture? 12 A. Yes, I did. 13 Q. What did you review? 14 A. I reviewed my file of scientific papers 15 having to do with asbestos, health, and public 16 policy. : 17 Q. Do you have a separate file in your 18 office dealing with that topic? 19 A. Yes, I do. 20 Q. Approximately how many articles are in 21 that file? 22 A. Couple of dozen, perhaps. 23 Q. Other than reviewing the articles you 24 presently had, did you attempt to obtain any other \VM ^~WoLJe, <zffozn!je.%y and tzzrf-iiociaUi, One. Ckieayo, OttinoL (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021570 117 1 information? 2 A. No. , 3 Q. Where did you obtain these articles? 4 A. Mainly from scientific journals on the 5 scientific articles, and from the news media, 6 including, for example, the Wall Street Journal on 7 some of the public policy aspects. B Q. Did anybody ever send you a particular 9 article? 10 A. At any time, or during this three months 11 period we are talking about. 12 Q. The file that you talked about, dealing 13 with public policy issues and asbestos, did anybody 14 send you articles? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Who would have sent you articles? 17 A. One example is George Guthrie of the Los 18 Alamos lab, who is the author of the things 19 discussed previously. 20 Q. Do you know why he would have sent you a 21 particular article? 22 A. He was aware of my interest in this 23 area. 24 Q. Is there anybodyother than Mr. Guthrie ^Wotfc, ez/tfoscnfacu} and c^isoeiatzi, dJnc. Chicago, UCtlnoU (312)792-8087 UCAREF00021571 118 1 that would have sent you an article that's in that 2 file? , 3 A. Yes. I think that some of them came 4 from Kathy Skinner at Yale. . 5 Q. And what is Ms. Skinner's position at 6 Yale? 7 A. She is a mineralogist in the geology 8 faculty at Yale University. I don't know her exact 9 title. 10 Q. Is it somebody that you know 11 professionally? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And is it somebody that's aware of your 14 interest in asbestos and public policy? 15 A. Yes. . 16 Q. When did you first develop this interest 17 in asbestos and public policy? 18 MR. RYAN: I think we covered this ground once 19 before. 20 BY MR. GREITZER: 21 Q. If you don't mind. 22 A. Are you asking a citizen's interest or a 23 scientist interest? 24 Q. A scientist's interest. <zf^oe.nfjz'U) and c^f-Moeiatzi, @na. Chicago, JJCtinoi* # (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021572 119 1 A. After I began my professional study of 2 geology. 3 Q. Is there a particular date -- - 4 A. No. 5 Q. --of professional study of geology? 6 A. Mid '80s to present. I don't think 7 professional study is the right word. Rigorous 8 study, say that instead. 9 Q. Is there anybody else other than George 10 Guthrie and Kathy Skinner that would forward 11 articles to you regarding asbestos and public 12 policy issues? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Who? 15 A. Art Langer. 16 Q. Is that Dr. Langer? 17 A. Yes, Dr. Arthur Langer. 18 Q. Do you recall how many articles he would) 19 have sent you? 20 A. I remember one. 21 Q. Which one? 22 A. It was an old paper by him and Liebling, 23 on a fiberous mineral known as nemalite from a 24 Canadian chrysotile asbestos mine, american WM <W/e, <z/K?oitne.xj and cjtyiiociatei, One. CkUayo, OttinoU (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021573 120 1 Mineralogist paper, early '70s, I think. 2 Q. Would he have sent that to you in the 3 '80s or the '90s? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Is there any other article that you can 6 recall or paper that Dr. Langer sent you? 7 A. Not that I can recall now. 8 Q. Do you recall when he sent youthat 9 article? 10 A. It was before 1993. ] 11 Q. Did you ask him to send you articles, or 12 did he do this of his own volition? 13 A. I believe that in conservation with him 14 at a scientifc meeting, or some other occasion, it 15 was a question of, this particular mineral came up, 16 nemalite, and he said, "You know, I wrote a paper 17 on that one time. I will try to find a reprint," 18 and he did, and he sent it to me. 19 Q. Is there anybody else that sent you 20 articles? 21 A. I am sure there are, but I don't 22 remember their names. 23 Q. Do you recall circumstances where people 24 would say, "I think you should go get this ,^WoCjc, d^oienfjexij and <c/f-iioeiatci One. Ckicago. OCtinoU (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021574 121 1 article"? 2 A. Yes. ' 3 Q. Who would have suggested articles that 4 you would obtain as opposed to sending them to you? 5 A. My collegues in the faculty at Harvard. 6 Q. And these are articles dealing with 7 asbestos and public policy issues? ; 8 A. Sure, if one of them would read an 9 article or hear about an article they would say, 10 "Mark, I heard about this. Check it out." 11 Q. What did you talk about at this address 12 of the Boston Bay Group? 13 A. I talked about the mineralogical 14 differences among the various members of the 15 asbestos family. Made sure that every one in the 16 audience could distinguish the individual members 17 of the asbestos family based on their crystal 18 structure and chemical composition. 19 We, then, proceeded to talk about the 20 potential health effect of these mineralogical 21 differences, and we ended up talking about public 22 policy, such as regulation of asbestos, based on 23 the underlying scientific evidence. 24 Q. Did you render an opinion at this n/VoCft, <z/x>oizn(je.xg and cztftxocLatea., jjrta. Chicago, DltinoU (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021575 122 1 meeting regarding the potential health effects of 2 chrysotile? ' 3 A. Yes. ' 4 Q. And what was that opinion? 5 A. That the health effects were 6 negligible. 7 Q. Did you make a distinction between 8 chrysotile, in general, and chrysotile from the New 9 Idria area? 10 A. No. 11 Q. When you use the word "negligible," does 12 that mean that you believe that there are certain 13 health effects as a result of respiring, breathing 14 in, chrysotile? 15 A. I mean that as a public policymatter, 16 we would be well served by directing our attentions; ! 17 elsewhere towards hazards that are much greater. 18 Q. How did you come to the conclusion that , 19 other things posed a greater health hazard relative 20 to asbestos? 21 MR. RYAN: Show my continuing objection, and 22 again, we are talking about not the family of 23 minerals now, but the chrysotile. 24 BY MR. GREITZER: \n <l/\/oCfc, <zf^Oi.tnrtxy and <zrfioaiat, jtfnc. C&ieayo. DttinoU (312)782-8087 . UCAREF00021576 123 1 Q. I want to ask him about - 2 A. Restate the question. 3 Q. Okay. When you talk about that you 4 believed that there are other types of asbestos 5 other than chrysotile that have adverse health 6 effects that are not negligible? 7 A. I certainly do. 8 Q. Which ones do you believe? 9 A. Chiefly, crocidolite, also amosite. 10 Q. What do you base that opinion on I I 11 relative to chrysotile in terms of health hazards? 12 A. Published literature in the 13 mineralogical and medical public policy 14 communities. 15 Q. And that published literature, is that 16 in your file that you maintain? 17 A. Some of it is. 18 Q. Some of it you have read and discarded? 19 A. No. Some of it is in the monograph that 20 I mentioned published by the Mineralogical Society 21 of America. 22 Q. Did you state an opinion as to why you 23 thought chrysotile, from whatever standpoint, only 24 posed a negligible health hazard? \VM ^WoCft, and <=/fi.iodate.i., {Jnc. {Zfticago, Ottinol* # (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021577 124 1 A. Stated an opinion at the time of this 2 address? 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What was that? 6 A. That I stated that the health impact of 7 chrysotile was probably minimal, especially by 8 comparison with other members of the asbestos 9 family. 10 Q. Did you express any opinions as to 11 chrysotile's ability to cause different types of 12 asbestos - related diseases? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Did you talk about plural thickening? 15 A. I talked about malignant mesothelioma. 16 Q. Is that the only disease that you 17 discussed? 18 A. No. 19 Q. What other disease? 20 A. Asbestosis. 21 Q. Do you believe there is a difference in 22 chrysotile's ability to cause asbestosis versus 23 crocidolite? 24 A. I don't know. That's a medical VVM 0/t/oCfe, <ftoi.zntrzxcj and czOnociaUi, One. CkUa^o, Ottinolt. (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021578 125 1 question, and I am not qualified to say. 2 Q. The Chlorite-Diopside article, the. third 3 article. what does that have to do with asbestos? 4 A. Nothing. ' 5 Q. Is there a reason ycfu included that 6 article then? 7 A. It was the most recent publication 8 concerning the New Idria district at the time that 9 I prepared this CV. 10 Q. The next one. Titanium Mobility, does 11 that have anything to do with asbestos? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Let's go down to the next article. If 14 you would, pronounce that word for me, ammonoosuc? 15 A. Ammonoosuc. 16 Q. "Ammonoosuc volcanic toPinatubo." 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Is there anything in there dealing with 19 asbestos? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Next one is, "A fluid inclusion study of 22 garnets from New Idria." Is there anything in 23 there dealing with asbestos? 24 A. No. WM ^WoCje, and czrfiiocuitei, 0> &iccujot dJCCinoiA (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021579 126 1 Q. And the last article here is, 2 "Energetics of cation substitution in the rutile . 3 structure." - 4 A. Cation substitution in the rutile 5 structure. 6 Q. Is there anything in that article 7 dealing with asbestos? 8 A. No. 9 Q. So if I am correct, then, the only 10 publications dealing with asbestos are your thesis, 11 which is the first document listed, and your 12 lecture to the Boston Bay Group? 13 A. That's correct. 14 MR. RYAN: Except that it is not a 15 publication. 16 BY MR. GREITZER: 17 Q. I said the lecture. 18 MR. RYAN: The introduction to that question 19 said "publication." I think it's clear on the 20 record. 21 BY THE WITNESS: . 22 A. The only items. 23 MR. RYAN: Items. 24 BY THE WITNESS: VVV//A (l/VoCft, and <^fiociaizi, One. {Jfticago, Ottinoi* # (312) 7B2'80Q7 UCAREF00021580 127 1 A. Yes. 2 BY MR. GREITZER: . 3 Q. If we can turn to the disclosure _ 4 statement that you looked at previously. I don't 5 believe you had a copy. 6 MR. RYAN: He is sharing my copy. 7 BY MR. GREITZER: 8 Q. I think we already discussed here what a 9 metamorphic petrologist is. 10 Coalinga asbestos deposit, is that the 11 KCAC mine? 12 MR. RYAN: You mean alone? 13 BY MR. GREITZER: 14 Q. It states, "Mr. Van Baalen will testify 15 about the Coalinga asbestos deposit in California 16 from which Union Carbide mined the raw chrysotile 17 asbestos ore that it processed into the Calidria 18 asbestos." 19 A. As we said way back at the beginning, 20 the Coalinga asbestos area is that portion of the 21 New Idria district that has been used for 22 commercial asbestos mining since about 1960. 23 There are a large number of asbestos 24 mines there, all of which are shut down, except for WM ^Woffz, <zffoizn&vu) and ociate., ffne. dfiicayo, Ottinoi* 0 (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021581 128 1 KCAC . 2 Q. And it is your understanding that the 3 KCAC mine was previously operated by Union Carbide? 4 A. That's right. 5 Q. Do you have an understanding as to 6 whether Union Carbide separated any other mine in 7 that area? : 8 A. I don't know the answer to that. 9 Q. So your testimony would be limited to 10 the area in which KCAC mined? 11 A. I believe what this says is that my 12 testimony would concern the Coalinga asbestos 13 deposit. 14 MR. GREENWOOD: Point of clarification, is 15 that the KCAC mine? 16 THE WITNESS: The KCAC mine is within the 17 Coalinga asbestos deposit, but is not the only mine 18 there. 19 BY MR. GREITZER: 20 Q. Is there any difference in the 2 1 chrysotile asbestos found within the KCAC mine area 22 and the rest of the Coalinga asbestos deposit? 23 A. I don't think so, no. 24 Q. Did you examine the entire Coalinga \Vi?/A ^WoCfx., <zffoznrtxcj and c^fnoaiata, {Jnc. C&icajo, fJCCinoU (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021582 129 1 asbestos deposit? 2 A. i examined several, but not all of the, 3 other mines. 4 Q. And I assume that you examined the KCAC 5 mine, is that correct? 6 A. Yes, but not in great detail. 7 Q. Can you tell me how you examined or what 8 you did at the KCAC mine? 9 A. I visited the mine, and looked at the 10 product that was being mined there. 11 Q. How did you look at the product that was 12 being mined? 13 A. I went to the mine pit. I examined 14 samples in place. I gathered samples in some 15 cases. And I talked with the mining, staff about 16 the methods of mining, and I watched what they did. 17 Q. Did you examine the material that was 18 mined under a microscope or anything other than a 19 human eye? 20 MR. RYAN: You mean the samples he took from 21 the mine? 22 BY MR. GREITZER: 23 Q. The samples you took from the mine. 24 A. Some of the samples were examined with \VM ^WoCjz, and <z/fa.u>eiatzi, One. d&ieajo, Ofltinoi* (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021583 130 1 certain techniques in the laboratories. Others 2 were examined with different techniques. Still 3 others, I didn't examine at all in the laboratory. 4 Q. What techniques did you use to examine 5 the material that was mined from this KCAC area? 6 A. I don't think I could distinguish those 7 samples that came from KCAC and those samples from 8 the other mines in answering that question. I can 9 tell you the techniques that I used, but I can't 10 tell you exactly which technique was used on which 11 sample. 12 Q. Generally, then, can you tell me what 13 techniques you used to examine the material from 14 the Coalinga asbestos deposit? 15 A. Sure. Petrography. 16 Q. Tell me what that is? 17 A. That's examination of specimens using a 18 polorizing microscope. 19 Q. What did that enable you to do? 20 A. Determine the mineralogy and texture of 21 these samples. 22 Q. Did that allow you to make a 23 determination that it was chrysotile asbestos? 24 A. Yes. However, not all chrysotile is \VM ^Wotfe, and c^faoeiates., ffno. dUicago, Dttinoli # (312) 7Q2m90S7 UCAREF00021584 131 1 chrysotile asbestos. | 2 Q. Were you able to determine whether the- 3 chrysotile was chrysotile.asbestos by doing the 4 petrography? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Could you tell the size of the 7 individual fibers doing petrography? 8 A. One can measure, using an optical 9 resolution, the fiber length. 10 Q. Did you do that? 11 A. I did that for the larger fibers. 12 Q. When you say "larger," how large is 13 large? 14 A. Within the optical resolution of a 15 petrographic microscope. 16 Q. Which is, can you give me a idea in 17 microns, since that's what I am somewhat familiar 18 with? 19 A. I would consider that an unreliable 20 technique for things that were smaller than a few 21 microns. 22 Q. "Few" meaning less than five? 23 A. Yeah, I would not consider that to be an 24 optimal technique for fibers in that fiber length. .,(]/VoCft, d^oi&nijzxtj and tz/fixjaiakc.i One. CdUayo. OCCinoU (312) 782-6087 UCAREF00021585 132 1 Q. How about in the 20-micron fiber length, 2 were you able to do it, or did you? , 3 A. Well, let me -- Let me answer the 4 question this way: When looking at chrysotile 5 asbestos samples in a rock, one looks at an entire 6 vein, not individual fibers. So it is more of a 7 bulk technique for determining the composition of 8 the vein. 9 If one wanted to look at an individual 10 fiber, that would probably not be a good technique. 11 Q. Petrography? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. Is there a technique that you used for 14 the material taken from the Coalinga asbestos 15 deposit, the actually measured fiber length of 16 chrysotile asbestos? 17 A. On a fiber-by-fiber basis? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. No. 20 Q. What other basis would you have done it 21 on, or did you do it on? 22 A. I was not concerned with the individual 23 fiber length of fibers from this mine for my 24 thesis. \Vi?/A <zftoi.in&vuj and c^fsiociatei, iJnc. Cticafo, CJUinoii. (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021586 133 1 Q. I think you stated earlier that the 2 fiber length of chrysotile asbestos from the :' 3 Coalinga asbestos deposit in the KCAC area was 4 shorter than in other areas. 5 How did you make that determination if 6 you didn't measure it individually? 7 A. Other areas, for example, Canada, I've 8 been to the Canadian mines where the fibers are so 9 long that they are visible with the naked eye; 10 cross fiber, for example, an inch long. 11 Q. Did you at any point measure the size of 12 asbestos fibers removed from the Coalinga asbestos 13 deposit? 14 A. On anindividual fiber basis? 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. No. 17 Q. Whatwould another basis be, I 18 apologize? 19 A. Looking at veins of chrysotile asbestos 20 to determine whether that vein was chryBOtile or 21 some other mineral. 22 Q. I assume then that you never 23 specifically examined the fiber length for the 24 chrysotile asbestos that came from the KCAC mine? ^WoCfe., <cffoi*Jire.,uj and cr/faocuxta, One. dtiieayo, dttinol* t (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021587 134 1 A. Not to date. 2 Q. Do you have plans on doing that? 3 A. Not at the moment. 4 Q. Have you been requested to do it? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Have you suggested to anyone that it 7 should be done? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Have you ever reviewed any documentation 10 of other individuals that have measured the fiber 11 length of the chrysotile asbestos that came from 12 the Coalinga asbestos deposit? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What would youhavereviewed? 15 A. One example is thepreviously mentioned 16 report from Dr. Langer. I believe that he went 17 into fiber length, at least to some extent. 18 Q. But you yourself didn't do any fiber 19 length testing or examination? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Do you know what Calidria asbestos is? 22 A. I think it is a trade name. 23 Q. Do you know whose trade name it is, for 24 what company? WWi ^WoCfz, and c^fs.iociate.5., }ne. CHicago, Oltinoi* # (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021588 135 A. KCAC. 2 Q. How would you have come to learn that it 3 was the trade name for KCAC? 4 A. I think when one visits the mill, that's 5 the trade name they use for their product shipping 6 out the door. 7 Q. Is the product in a chrysotile asbestos 8 fiber, a raw fiber, as opposed to formed into any 9 particular product? 10 A. I believe that the product, that is, the 11 output of the mill, is fiberous material in bags, 12 graded according to its physical properties, and 13 those bags contain Calidria asbestos. 14 Q. You state that the Coalinga deposit is 15 nearly unique. When I say "you," the statement 16 that we are reading from states that the - 17 MR. RYAN: Page 14. 18 BY MR. GREITZER: 19 Q. Page 14 the top, "the Coalinga deposit 20 is nearly unique in the world." 21 Is there any other deposit that you are 22 familiar with that's similar to the Coalinga 23 deposit? 24 MR. RYAN: Talking about the Coalinga \Vi?/A *~Wof&, d^oie.nfje.'uj and e^faociaie.3., One. (J&uicujo, OtCinol* (312)762-8087 UCAREF00021589 136 1 asbestos? 2 BY MR. GREITZER: 3 Q. Right. 4 A. I am not aware of any other deposit 5 that's similar. 6 Q. Is there a reason you used the word 7 "nearly"? 8 A. There could be some other asbestos mine 9 that I don't know about, I have never heard of. 10 Q. I think we already discussed the 11 physical characteristics that differentiate it from 12 Canadian chrysotile, is that correct? 13 A. Yes. I 14 Q. That has to deal with the purity and the 15 length? 16 MR. RYAN: I think he described those as being 17 the important ones. 18 BY MR. GREITZER: 19 Q. The important ones. Is there a 20 difference in the diameter that you are aware of, 21 of the Canadian versus the Coalinga chrysotile? 22 A. I don't know the answer to that right 23 now. 24 Q. What do you mean, this statement says. \W'A .,QVoCfz, <zf^oi.nfjzxy and c^f-itocLatzs One. fileago, OttinoL% 0 (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021590 137 1 "The fibers from the Coalinga deposit are easily- 2 separated into individual fibils upon contact with 3 water." _ 4 What do you mean by that statement? 5 A. I mean that the ore this is mined at 6 KCAC is rather loosely consolidated and gravelly. 7 There is very little holding individual fibers 8 together, so they are easily separated. 9 Q. Did you ever perform tests or 10 experiments to determine that these fibers were 11 easily separated upon contact with water? 12 A. No, I have done so such experiments. 13 Q. Did you review somebody else's 14 experiments that would indicate that? 15 A. I have read no reports on this, no. 16 Q. Then what's the basis for the statement 17 that they are easily separated into individual 18 fibers upon contact with water? 19 A. I have toured the mill in King City, and 20 I have watched their commercial refinement and 21 production process, so I have seen what they do in 22 an industrial sense. I have been through the 23 entire mill works. 24 Q. They use water to separate the fibers? *~WoCf&, affoitnljtxti and e^fnoauitei, One. (2fiicayo, fJCtinoii 0 (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021591 138 1 A. Yes, they use water, magnetic 2 separators, and flocculation, so on. 3 Q. What is flocculation? - 4 A. It's getting scum to float to the top so 5 it can he skimmed off. 6 Q. Do you have an opinion as to which type 7 of fiber is more easily respirable, the Canadian or 8 the Coalinga, as a result of its ability to be 9 disbursed in water? 10 MR. RYAN: Asking for a medical opinion? 11 MR. GREITZER: No. 12 BY MR. GREITZER: 13 Q. Aerodynamics, physical properties. 14 A. If it's in water, it is not going to be 15 respired at all. 16 Q. There is a statement, "the deposit 17 consists," I am reading in the middle now, "The 18 deposit consists of more than 90 percent chrysotile 19 ore. " 20 Is the chrysotile ore the same as 21 chrysotile asbestos? 22 A. Ore is a term from economic geology 23 that, it means an economic concentration of some 24 natural commodity, in this case, chrysotile *~WoCfe, .,and c^iiuociatei One. Cftieago, OCCtnoU (312)782-8037 UCAREF00021592 139 1 asbestos. 2 If the concentration is so low that it 3 is not economically sensible to put a mine there, 4 then you don't have an ore. You have a trace 5 occurrence. 6 Q. Is that determination of 90 percent 1 chrysotile ore based on your own experimentation or 8 your review of the literature? 9 MR. RYAN: You mean more than 90 percent? 10 MR. GREITZER: Yes. 11 BY THE WITNESS: 12 A. That's based on what I was told in an 13 industrial sense by the mining company. 14 BY MR. GREITZER: j i 15 Q. So you never actually tested the sample 16 of the material to see that it was 90 percent 17 chrysotile or more? 18 A. To make aquantitativedetermination of 19 that? 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. No. 22 Q. The lastfull paragraph on Page 14, 23 states that you will testify that "the Coalinga 24 deposit contains no tremolite or any other WM 1^ /VoCfz, tzffoienljzxg and <zrf-ioaLatzi., One. OttinoLx # (312) 7Q2-8087 UCAREF00021593 140 1 amphibole asbestos often found in trace amounts in 2 and Canadian and other types of chrysotile 3 deposits. " .. i 4 What's the basis of your testimony that 5 it doesn't contain tremolite or any other 6 amphiboles? 7 A. I have not, in my studies of the New 8 Idria district, or the Coalinga deposit, 9 specifically, ever discovered tremolite, nor has it 10 ever been reported in the scientific literature, 11 going back more than a century. 12 Q. And would that be the same with any 13 other amphiboles? 14 MR. RYAN: Amphibole asbestos? 15 BY THE WITNESS: 16 A. There is a distinction between amphibole 17 and amphibole asbestos. 18 BY MR. GREITZBR: 19 Q. With any other amphibole asbestos. 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. But you don't recall specifically 22 testing the material from the KCAC mine? 23 MR. RYAN: I am not sure I understand. He has 24 testified before he tested samples. WM ,(l/\/oCjt, <cf\?oitn>z'U] and ez/fiAoeiai&i fjnc. Chicago, }(Cinolx (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021594 141 BY MR. GREITZER: 2 Q. Generally, in the Coalinga area, but not 3 specifically XCAC? . 4 A. No. My tests have been on samples from 5 the entire district, and may have included 6 amphibole specifically from the KCAC mine, but I 7 did not single out the KCAC mine for testing. 8 Q. The testing you would have done or the 9 samples you would have taken from the KCAC mine 10 would have been after 1988? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. The paragraph beginning at the end of 14 13 and going on to the top of 15, talks about your 14 opinion being based, among other things, scientific 15 and medical literature. 16 Other than the medical literature that 17 you have discussed today, is there any other 18 article that you would have referred to or relied 19 upon inrendering any opinion about what's 20 contained in this disclosure statement? 21 A. Either we have discussed them today, or 22 they are in the bibliography of the thesis. 23 Q. You talk about tests and analysis that 24 you or others have performed. We talked about Dr. O/VoCfe, tzffoun&eand c^faaeiate.1, 0na. dkicoyo, }Clnoli (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021595 142 1 Langer's test, is that correct, of KCAC, in 2 particular? 3 A. Yes. - 4 Q. Is Dr.Langer's test included in your 5 bibliography, to the best of your recollection? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Is there a reason why his testing is not 8 included in your bibliography? 9 A. It is not a published work, and did not 10 bear directly on the subject of my thesis. 11 Q. Is there any information that is from 12 Dr. Langer's test results that's included in your 13 thesis, to the best of your knowledge? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Have you reviewed any materials created, 16 or testimony given by any plaintiff's experts in 17 this litigation? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Do you understand that you might be 20 called upon to do that? 21 A. I think that's apossibility. 22 Q. Let me ask you if you know certain 23 individuals that are listed in this expert witness 24 disclosure statement. .,and czrf-i.iocLatzi One. d&icayo, {Jttinola (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021596 143 1 Do you know Dr. Eric Chatfield, who is 2 listed as a microscopist? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Dr. Allen Gibbs? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Dr. Duane Hyde? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Have you heard of Dr. Hyde? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Dr. Edward Ilgren? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. How would you know of Dr. Ilgren? 13 A. I have had a few phone conversations 14 with him. 15 Q. What did you and Dr. Ilgren speak about? 16 A. Asbestos mineralogy, and potential 17 health ef fects. 18 Q. Did he provide medical information to 19 you? 20 MR. RYAN: You mean that he didn't already 21 have? 22 BY MR. GREITZER: 23 Q. That you didn't already have? 24 A. No. \W*/A ^WoCfe, oienCzxg ami cz/fi&ociatzi, One. C&icayo, OttinoU (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021597 144 1 Q. Are any of your opinions dealing with 2 the potential health hazards of asbestos based on 3 information or discussions you have had with Dr. 4 Ilgren? 5 A. I would say that my opinions are based 6 on conversations with a large number of people, 7 reading a large number of articles, and some of 8 that would include conversations with Dr. Ilgren. 9 Q. Other than being asked his name today in 10 the context of him being listed as an expert 11 witness for Union Carbide, did you ever know that 12 Dr. Ilgren was a consultant or an expert witness 13 for Union Carbide? 14 A. I had conversations with Dr. Ilgren 15 covering roughly the same period of time as the 16 previously described relationship with Allen 17 Gerson. 18 Q. Would it be fair to say then, did you 19 meet Dr. Ilgren or - 20 A. I have never met him. 21 Q. Was it your contact with Allen Gerson 22 that precipitated your contact with Dr. Ilgren? 23 A. I think so. 24 Q. Did Mr. Gerson suggest you contact Dr. yR&MkfA (l/VoCft, ezf^oizn&txcj and ocLalti., dJna. CfUcajo, Ottinoli (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021598 145 1 Ilgren? 2 A. No. ~. 3 MR. RYAN: I don't think there is evidence 4 that Dr. Van Baalen ever contacted Ilgren. 5 BY MR. GREITZBR: 6 Q. Is it your understanding that Dr. Ilgren 7 contacted you at the suggestion of Gerson or 8 anybody from Union Carbide? 9 A. My understanding, Ilgren contacted me on 10 his initiative rather than on mine. 11 Q. Is he seeking information from you? 12 A. He wanted to know my opinions about the 13 geology and origin of the New Idria district. 14 Q. Did you talk about fiber length and the 15 purity of the chrysotile from that area? 16 A. In the same general way that we have 17 discussed that today. 18 Q. Do you know Dr. Hilton Lewinsohn? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Dr. Arthur Morgan? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Dr. FrederickMumpton? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Where would you know Dr. Mumpton from? r v WW/A <Wotf, cfio*nre.%cj and ,ioaiatzi. One. Cfticaga, Dttinoix (312) 7B2~80B7 UCAREF00021599 146 1 A. I have never met him, but I have read 2 some of his published papers. "" 3 Q. How did you obtaincopies of Dr. 4 Mumpton's published papers? 5 A. They are in the professional journals. 6 They are in the libraries. 7 Q. Is it something you sought out in 8 connection with your thesis? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Was it something you sought out in your 11 consultation with Union Carbide? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Mr. Gerald Ostick? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Dr. Harrison Rhodes? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Dr. Robert Sawyer? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Mr. James Werner? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Mr. Otto Wong, an epidemiologist? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Dr. Peter Barrett? 24 A. No. H/MoCfz, tz^oiznfctxg and c^fiiociatzi, One. Cftleayo, {Jttinoli (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021600 147 1 May I qualify all those yes's and no's? 2 Q. Certainly. 3 A. It is possible that at the short course 4 that I attended, previously described, on Health 5 Effects and Mineral Dust, that some of those people 6 might have attended the same course without my 7 knowing it. 8 Q. Do you have any specific knowledge of 9 having spoken with any of those individuals? 10 A. No. 11 Q. I think there is a conference called the 12 Jersey Conference in 1993. Are you familiar with 13 that? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Are you familiar with the concept that 16 the manipulation of chrysotile fibers might 17 increase its carcinogenesy? 18 A. I don't understand the question. 19 Q. Are you familiar with the concept that 20 if you manipulate or work with or mine or mill 21 chrysotile fibers, that that can increase their 22 ability to cause cancer? 23 A. I don't understand that, no. 24 Q. Okay. H/Uoffe, tzffoiznfje.xc) and cz/f-iiociat&i., Jnc. Chicago, iJCtinoU (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021601 148 1 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had.) 2 BY MR. GRBITZER: ' 3 Q. I would like you to take a look at 4 what's been previously been marked as Hyde Exhibit 5 1 from 5/26/95. 6 If you would turn to the page that has 7 Union Carbide Internal Correspondence. If you 8 would take a look at that document, please. Just 9 briefly. I am curious as to whether you have ever 10 seen it before? 11 A. No. 12 MR. RYAN: That was Hyde Deposition 1. 13 BY THE WITNESS: 14 A. Looks like charts. 15 BY MR. GREITZER: 16 Q. Are you familiar with air sampling in 17 connection with asbestos? 18 A. I am familiar - 19 MR. RYAN: From a layman's? 20 BY THE WITNESS: 21 A. In general, some of the techniques that 22 are used, but I don't consider myself knowledgeable 23 about that. 24 BY MR. GREITZER: \\M ^l/l/oCfz, tcffoicnljc.'U} and Ckicajor OltinoLi (312) 782-8087 , Ona. UCAREF00021602 149 1 Q. Are you familiar with any standards for 2 air samples? 3 A. What the samples standards are, or 4 whether there are standards? 5 Q. Do you know whether there are standards? 6 A. i believe there are standards for 7 occupational exposure. 8 Q. Have you ever participated or reviewed 9 reports from air sampling? 10 A. I was never involved in any air sampling 11 studies, no. 12 Q. Have you ever seen the results of air 13 sampling studies? 14 A. Other than what I am looking at here for 15 the first time, no. 16 Q. If you take a look - 17 A. You are talking about asbestos air 18 sampling, not talking about ozone sulfur dioxide? 19 Q. Asbestos in terms of counting fibers in 20 the air. 21 A. Okay. Yes, I am not familiar with 22 that. I didn't remember. 23 Q. There is a sheet that you are looking 24 at, and there is a handful of them that states WM ^WoCft, <zf^oi.nljE.icj and c^f-tiociatci, One. Chicago. OCCinoit m (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021603 150 1 asbestos count record sheet. Do you know what this' 2 sheet indicates? ". 3 MR. RYAN: You are asking him about a document 4 he has never seen before, he has no knowledge about 5 the whole subject, and you are asking him to read 6 it to you? 7 MR. GREITZER: I am asking him whether - 8 MR. RYAN: What do you want him to do with 9 it? He has no knowledge of the subject. 10 MR. GREITZER: Whether this indicates to you, 11 looking at the subject, whether it indicates fiber 12 length. 13 MR. RYAN: Objection. The document speaks for 14 itself. 15 BY MR. GREITZER: 16 Q. Are you familiar with the layout of this 17 document or what this document shows? 18 A. No, I can just read the title. 19 Q. Okay. That's fine. Do you know what an 20 aspect ratio is dealing with asbestos? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What's an aspect ratio? 23 A. Physical proportionality of the length 24 to the width. \V/Vl ^l/VoCfe., tzf^oi.tnUr&'Uj and czrf-iiociatzi, One. Ckicc^o, iJCCinol* (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021604 151 1 Q. So aspect ratio of greater than or equal 2 to three would mean it was three times longer than 3 it was wide? 4 A. That's correct. The aspect ratio, 5 numerically, the longer and skinnier the fiber. 6 Q. How would you classify the chrysotile 7 fiber that was six microns in length? Would you 8 consider that short, long, in your opinion? 9 MR. RYAN: Six microns? 10 BY THE WITNESS: 11 A. I would say that's short. 12 BY MR. GREITZER: 13 Q. Turn to Tab 2. Again, this is Hyde 14 Exhibit 2, from the 5/26/95. If you turn to the 15 page dealing with Union Carbide internal 16 correspondence. Have you ever seen this document 17 before. Take a look at it? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Turn to Hyde Exhibit 3, that Tab 3 20 states, "Asbestos Industrial Hygiene Sample 21 Summary." Have you ever seen these particular 22 documents? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Have you ever seenany documents like WM ^WoCfe., .,and ezrfi&oeiatti One. d&icago, Ottinoit 9 (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021605 152 1 this dealing with asbestos sampling? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Have you ever done any bulk sampling 4 analysis of asbestos? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. In what context would youhave done 7 that? . 8 A. I have determined the chemical 9 composition of a rock that contained asbestos. 10 Q. And Iassume that you haveactually done 11 that for the Coalinga deposit? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. But you are not sure whether you did it 14 for the KCAC area? 15 A. Not specifically, no. 16 Q. Turn to Tab 4,which is Hyde Exhibit 4. 17 November 11, 1974 letter on Union Carbide 18 letterhead. Have you ever seen this document 19 before? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Hyde Exhibit No. 5. Take a look at that 22 document. Have you ever seen this document before? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Exhibit 6, is a Mellon Institute Special \VJ?/A ^WoCje., <zf^oinfjcuj and OfiUayy, OCLnoU (312)782-8087 , dJnc. UCAREF00021606 153 1 Report. it is Hyde 6. Have you ever seen that 2 document before? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Are you aware of any testing that was 5 done on rats using chrysotile asbestos mined at 6 KCAC, or what was previously owned by Union 7 Carbide? : 8 A. I am not aware of any, no. 9 Q. Is this the first time youhavebecome 10 aware that there might have, potentially, been 11 testing on rats with chrysotile asbestos from the 12 KCAC mine? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Turn to Hyde Exhibit 7. Take a look at 15 that. Again, have you ever seen this document? 16 A. No. 17 Q. On the top of the document, titled 18 Calidria Asbestos-Resin Grade. Do you know what 19 resin grade would be, what that means to you? 20 A. It is an industrial term. I don't know 21 precisely what it means in this context. 22 Q. Turn to Hyde Exhibit 8, please. This is 23 a document, "Asbestos as a Health Hazard in the 24 United Kingdom." If you take a look at this WM ^WoCfe, <z/?oienfccxg and d&lcayo, OttinoLi # 782-8087 , iJna. UCAREF00021607 154 1 document, have you ever seen this before? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Take a look at Page 18 of that document? 4 A. Okay. S Q. Section 6.5, the fibre aerodynamics, do 6 you have any training or general information about 7 fiber aerodynamics in connection with chrysotile 8 from the Coalinga deposit? 9 A. No. 10 Q. You have you done any studies on fiber 11 aerodynamics ? 12 A. No studies on fiber aerodynamics. 13 Q. Have you ever reviewed any articles 14 dealing with fiber aerodynamics? 15 A. If so, only peripherally, or just 16 skimmed an article. 17 Q. Read in the second paragraph, 6.5, I am 18 going to read something and ask whether you agree 19 or disagree. 20 MR. RYAN: Since the witness has indicated he 21 has never seen it before, this is one document that 22 doesn't give its date on the front page. Last page 23 it does. 24 BY MR. GREITZER: ^WoCfe., <cf^oznrs.\tj and. czrfiAoeiatei, lne. fticcujo, UCtinoi* + (312) 782-80Q7 UGAREF00021608 155 1 Q. The date on the last page of this 2 document is 12/5/67, and I don't know whether that 3 is December or May, because I think it is British. 4 A. if it is British, then it would be 5 December 5th, 1967. 6 Q. Take a look at Page 18. There is a 7 middle paragraph of 6.5, it deals with the diameter 8 of a Coalinga fiber is less than 300, and what's 9 the "A" with the degree symbol? 10 A. Angstrom. 11 Q. Do you have any independent knowledge of 12 whether that's correct or not? 13 A. I have no independentknowledge of 14 whether that's correct. 15 Q. There is a statement afterwards, it says 16 that "fibers stand a good chance of deeply 17 penetrating the lung if their diameters are about 18 3.5 microns or less." Do you agree or disagree 19 with that? 20 A. No opinion. 21 Q. Next sentence is, "With adiameter at 22 least 100 times smaller, there is no doubt the 23 Coalinga fiber is capable of reaching the inner 24 most portions of the lung." Do you have an opinion (l/VoCft, , Jand c^fiioaialci One. CAuafo, OttlnoU (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021609 156 1 as to the accuracy? 2 A. No opinion. j-'-- 3 Q. Next paragraph, "It may be seen from 4 electron photomicrographs of the Coalinga asbestos 5 that the aspect ratio is usually much greater than 6 five, and that the fibrils are highly symmetrical, 7 and are unassociated with gangue materials." 8 Do you have an opinion as to the 9 accuracy of that statement? 10 MR. RYAN: Again, you are asking this witness 11 to offer an opinion, I assume, from a mineralogical 12 standpoint about a document that he has never seen 13 before until today? 14 BY THE WITNESS: 15 A. The statement is not demonstrably 16 false. 17 BY MR. GREITZER: 18 Q. Is there anything that you would 19 disagree with in that statement based on your 20 independent knowledge of the asbestos at Coalinga? 21 A. I see no reason to disagree with that. 22 Q. Would having a copy of your dissertation 23 - - There are some questions I would like to ask 24 you about your dissertation. If you need a copy, \VJ?/A CWoCfe, czffoi.znrzxcj and Chicago, OCtinoii (312)782-8087 , 0na. UCAREF00021610 157 1 let us know, and we will either work over your 2 shoulder or - 3 A. If I need to see that page, I will let 4 you know. 5 MR. RYAN: You are not going to mark this, are 6 you? 7 MR. GREITZER: Off the record. 8 (WHEREUPON, discussion was had off 9 the record.) 10 BY MR. GREITZER: 11 Q. The abstract, what's the purpose of the 12 abstract of your thesis, having an abstract? 13 A. To enable the reader of the abstract to 14 determine if it is worth reading the rest of the 15 thesis. 16 Q. We discussed earlier the last paragraph 17 of your abstract, dealing with the possible health 18 hazards relating to the chrysotile from the New 19 Idria getting into the waterway, and then being 20 ingested, that is, consumed through the drinking 21 water. 22 A. Yeah, ingested, that's the right term. 23 Q. Other than the abstract, is there any 24 chapter or section in the chapter that deals with Wi?/A (~WoCft, and <zrfsocCatei, {Jnc. Cheapo, OttinoU (312)782-6097 UCAREF00021611 158 1 or refers to medical literature dealing with the 2 health hazards of ingesting chrysotile? -, 3 A. I am not aware of any studies that 4 demonstrate the health hazards of ingesting 5 chrysotile. And therefore, there are none cited. 6 Q. Other than the abstract, is there 7 anywhere else in your dissertation that you discuss 8 the health hazards of the chrysotile from New 9 Idria/Coalinga area? 10 A. These topics are discussed in several 11 places in the thesis in the context of public 12 policy issues, drainage issues, actions by the 13 Environmental Protection Agency, and other 14 government agencies, chrysotile mineralogy, per se, 15 and including chapter summary discussions that 16 bring many of these points to life, so there are 17 multiple references in answer to your question. 18 Q. You have several pictures that were 19 taken in the New Idria Coalinga. 20 These are black and white copies. Do 21 you have color pictures? 22 A. The thesis original had color 23 photographs. 24 Q. Is there any particular picture that you \\V?#A ^WoCft, <zf^oznre.xy and c^i&oeiatei, {Jne. d&iccujo, Ottinoli % (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021612 159 1 think best shows the KCAC mine? 2 A. I believe there is only one plate that 3 shows the KCAC mine. 4 Q. And you have a color versionof that? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Is that an aerial photo? 7 A. No, it is a photo from a nearby 8 mountaintop. 9 Q. On Page 17 of your introduction, that 10 begins the great many thank-you's for all the work 11 that was obviously involved in getting this 12 together. 13 Is there anybody from, or associated 14 with. Union Carbide that would have participated in 15 the development of your thesis? 16 A. In the development of the ideas in the 17 thesis? 18 Q. Of the document that sits before us? 19 A. No. I believe that the staff of the 20 KCAC mine is thanked for providing me personal 21 access on their private mine road. I think that's 22 in there somewhere. 23 Q. I think earlier this morning we talked 24 about the original direction of your thesis was not WM *l/l/oCft, tzffoizndrz.'uj and c^fuocialci, dJna. Cftlcagot {JCCinolx (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021613 160 1 asbestos ? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. At what point in time did this public 4 policy issue and the type of chrysotile mined in 5 Coalinga become a focus, or a topic within your 6 thesis?. 7 MR. RYAN: Are you eliminating focus? 8 BY MR. GREITZER: 9 Q. Yeah. I am eliminating focus. Let me 10 rephrase that. 11 At what point in your thesis did the 12 issue of the type of chrysotile found at Coalinga 13 become the topic that you wanted to include in your 14 thesis? 15 A. When you say "at what point in the 16 thesis," I take it you mean what point in the 17 thesis project? 18 Q. Project. 19 A. When I beganfieldwork in earnest, I 20 paid courtesy calls to several of the government 21 agencies who were responsible for this area, 22 specifically, the Bureau of Land Management. 23 I had a conversation with the geologist 24 from BLM in Hollister, and he said "Well, of course WM ^Wotfe., <cf^oizn(jL%t} and <zrf&ocuitc, 0ne. (2fiicayo, Oitinoi* # (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021614 161 1 you are going to have physical access restrictions 2 in some parts of the district, because of things 3 that the EPA is doing." 4 He made me aware of the EPA activities, 5 and current thinking on the part of BLM as to 6 management of this area. 7 Q. What year was that? 8 A. That would have been 1989. 9 Q. At what point in the thesis process did 10 you begin to think about the public policy issues 11 regarding the chrysotile in the waterway? 12 A. When I began to see what the EPA was 13 doing out there, and I began to read some of the 14 EPA documents. 15 Q. When was that? 16 A. 1989, and subsequent years. 17 Q. Are there any particular EPA documents 18 that you read at that time? 19 A. Yes. There were some consultant studies 20 done for the EPA by agencies that are cited in the 21 bibliography that describe their criteria for 22 evaluating the district, and in setting up access 23 restrictions, and that sort of thing. 24 Q. What was the EPA doing in that area? \VM 0/MoCfe, tzffoien&txtj and c^hioaLatzi., One. Cheapo, {JCtinaU (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021615 162 1 A. They were, specifically, at the time 2 that I became aware of this, they were establishing 3 two Super Fund sites in the New Idria district and 4 within the Coalinga asbestos deposit portion. 5 Q. Were they Super Fund sites because of 6 the existence of the asbestos? 7 A. Yes. These were abandoned mines that 8 were just left there to deteriorate. 9 Q. And these mines would have contained the 10 same type of chrysotile as the KCAC, in your 11 opinion? 12 A. That's right. 13 Q. There is a statement that thisdistrict 14 has the largest, one of the largest chrysotile 15 deposits in the world? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What's the basis for that? 18 A. Looking at the physical size, that is, 19 the outcrop area on a map, and considering the 20 extremely high percentage of chrysotile ore within 21 that area, find that there is a huge concentration 22 of chrysotile that is not matched by any of the 23 Canadian or Russian deposits that I am aware of. 24 Q. Did you ever see anybody in any of your WM <zf^oiinrt\ej and ^fiiociaiei, dJnc. (2flicago, f3CCinoi% + (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021616 163 1 visits to the Coalinga asbestos area or deposit 2 wearing protective clothing or respirators? 3 A. One time, in the summer of '93, I ran- 4 into a surveyor who was wearing one of these 5 disposable paper suits. 6 Q. Was he wearing a respirator or some kind 7 of breathing apparatus? ; 8 A. I don't think so, but I don't remember 9 for sure, but I do remember that he had one of 10 these industrial white disposable suits. 11 Q. You talked about amphibole versus 12 amphibole asbestos. 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. Can you briefly describe for me the 15 difference? 16 A. Okay. Amphiboles are a very large 17 family in the mineral kingdom. There are many, 18 many different amphiboles. Asbestos is a 19 morphological term, that is, you have to have a 20 small fiber with a high aspect ratio, that sort of 21 thing. 22 Most asbestos, most amphibole asbestos, 23 is confined to a few members of the amphibole 24 family. These are minerals that will take on the ^WoCft, tzffoiznfjfuj and <zz/)iociatei, One. Cl/tica^o, O[[inoil # (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021617 164 1 asbestos form habit. The other members of the 2 amphibole family tend to be massive or chunky or 3 blocky, and do not form along needles, fibers, that 4 sort of thing. 5 Q. When you mentioned in your thesis at a 6 couple of points blue amphibole? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. That's not a reference -- that's not 9 asbestos? That is an amphibole that doesn't have 10 the aspect ratio to be considered asbestos? 11 A. Right. It doesn't appear to be 12 amphibole asbestos. 13 Q. There is also somewhere in your thesis 14 the mineral, I think it's forsterite, 15 F-o-r-s-t-e-r-i-t-e, is that different than 16 fosterite? 17 A. Fosterite? 18 Q. Do you know if there is a difference 19 between that? 20 A. I am not familiar with fosterite. 21 Q. Are you familiar with the concept of an 22 asbestos fiber after it's been heated to a certain 23 temperature becoming fosterite? 24 A. Forsterite. ^1/l/oCjt, <zf^oi.e.n&t%cj and cjtyiiociatei, fjnc. C&lcajo, Ottinoli 012) 782-8087 UCAREF00021618 165 1 Q. Forsterite? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What is forsterite? 4 A. Forsterite is the name of the magnesian 5 end member of the olivine series. Olivine is the 6 most abundant mineral in the upper most mantle of 7 the earth. So the earth might be 15 percent 8 olivine. Very abundant mineral deep down. 9 When olivine from the earth's mantle is 10 brought to the earth's surface, it is unstable in 11 the presence of water, reacts chemically to form 12 serpentine minerals, one is which is chrysotile. 13 That process is reversible. And if you heat up 14 serpentine, you can drive off the water and turn it 15 back into forsterite. 16 Q. Does forsterite have anaspect ratio 17 similar to chrysotile asbestos? 18 A. Not at all. Forsterite is a massive, 19 chunky mineral. 20 Q. There is reference on Chapter 2, Page 21 10, there is a citation to Mumpton and Thompson? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you know if they have any 24 relationship to Union Carbide? WW/A <W/ ,e <zffounljL'U} and c^fisoeiatei, {Jna. ClUafo, UCtlnoU (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021619 166 1 A. I think that the Mumpton that you 2 mentioned is the same Mumpton as the list of names 3 that you read off of a few minutes ago. 4 What his relationship is to Union 5 Carbide? I have no idea. 6 Q. So you never made any independent 7 determination as to whether he was connected to 8 Union Carbide? 9 A. No, I don't know the answer to that. 10 Q. I will read the title of the chapters 11 off to you. Chapter 4 is entitled Mineralogy and 12 Petrology of the Tectonic Inclusions. 13 Does that chapter have anything to do 14 with the chrysotile asbestos? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Chapter 5, Compositions and mineral 17 Associations of Garnet from the New Idria 18 Serpentine, does that have anything to do with 19 chrysotile asbestos? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Those Chapters 4 and 5, there would be 22 no information dealing with chrysotile asbestos and 23 fiber length and aspect ratio, is that correct? 24 A. No. W/Vi <l/Vo(fe., and tociatsi., jjnc. {J&ieajo, LIttinois (312) 7B2-Q087 UCAREF00021620 167 1 Q. Chapter 6, Titanium Mobility in 2 Metamorphic Systems. Does that have anything to do 3 with chrysotile asbestos? i 4 A. No. 5 Q. Chapter 7 is the last chapter of your 6 thesis, is that correct? 7 A. That's right. 8 Q. That's entitled Discussion and 9 Conclusion? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Again on Page 15 of Chapter 7, you have 12 a statement in the section entitled Formation of 13 Short Fiber Chrysotile Asbestos, states that 14 chrysotile asbestos from New Idria is also 15 remarkable in that the fiber length is much 16 shorter, and I think it has, you, can tell me if 17 this is correct, five microns is that the 18 indication for five microns? 19 A. "urn" is the designation for microns, 20 micrometers. 21 Q. What's the basis for the statement that 22 the fiber length is much shorter than five microns? 23 A. I relied on the Mumpton and Thompson 24 1975 paper. WM ^WoCft, cffo&enfj&xej and oeiaies., {Jnc. {J/zicajo, Otiru>l% (312) 782~8087 UCAREF00021621 168 1 Q. The language "much shorter," that refers 2 to five microns as being much shorter than other 3 A. By comparison with other chrysotile 4 asbestos, it is. 5 Q. It is not stating that this chrysotile 6 is much shorter than five microns? 7 A. Read the sentence, or let me read it. 8 Q. I will let you read it. Begins there, 9 "Chrysotile"? 10 A. "Chrysotile asbestos from New Idria is 11 also remarkable in that the fiber length is much 12 shorter, parens, (five microns typical), than other 13 occurrences." 14 The other occurrences would be other 15 chrysotile asbestos deposits. 16 Q. So it is not saying that these fibers 17 are much shorter than five microns? 18 A. No. 19 MR. RYAN: You are talking about that 20 sentence? 21 MR. GREITZER: That sentence, right. 22 BY MR. GREITZER: 23 Q. And, again, that's based on your reading 24 of the literature, not your actual fiber length W/?/A ^1/UoCfe, czffoi.tnlrt'Uj anJ (Jfiicayo, {JtCinola # (312) 782-8087 , One. UCAREF00021622 169 1 measurement? 2 A. Yes, I have not done individual fiber 3 length determinations to date. 4 Q. Have you done anything personally that 5 would assist you in making the fiber length 6 determination? 7 A. I have determined that individual fibers 8 are too small to be measured accurately with a 9 petrographic microscope. 10 Q. Is that the only microscope that you 11 have the experience to use? 12 A. No, that's not correct. 13 Q. Is that the only one that you used in 14 this research? 15 A. No, that's not correct. 16 Q. What other microscopes? Did you use any 17 microscopes that would enable you to measure 18 individual fibers? 19 A. Yes, I did. However, I did not make 20 fiber length determinations. 21 Q. Did you have the ability to make fiber 22 length determinations? 23 A. You are saying did I have the personal 24 ability, and did the equipment have the ability? VVWa n/UoCfi, and <zdf-iociate.i., One. Ctticcujo, Qttinoli (312) 782-8087 UGAREF00021623 170 1 Q. Yes. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What type of microscope? 4 A. An electron microscope. 5 Q. Page 20, Chapter 7, there 6 statement, "Asbestos would form preferentially in 7 the sheer plains, leading to slip fiber asbestos 8 deposits typical of Vermont and eastern townships 9 of Quebec." 10 What is slip fiber asbestos? 11 A. Slip fiber asbestos is an asbestos that 12 forms in a vein or a fracture with fiber length j 13 parallel to the vein walls. 14 Q. Is that more typical of Vermont and 15 Canada as opposed to Coalinga? 16 A. In Coalinga, you don't have really 17 either slip fiber or cross fiber. What you have is 18 destruction by comminution of the rock. 19 Q. I take it from the statement in 20 paragraph 29, Chapter 7-A, that you visited other 21 asbestos mines other than Coalinga? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Those are the only ones that you visited 24 listed on Page 29? ^WoCfz, .,and c^/j-aocLatcs fjna. gfiicafo. Otiinoii (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021624 171 1 A. Let's see what it says. This doesn't 2 say anything about visiting asbestos mines on this 3 page. 4 Q. I am sorry. 5 A. Does it? I don't see it. 6 Q. Sorry. Wrong section. This is just 7 talking about going to mountain complexes and not 8 asbestos mines? 9 A. That's what that suggestions, other 10 serpentine sites. 11 Q. Chapter 7, Page 30, it has areas for 12 future research. Can you read out loud for me the 13 section 3. 14 MR. RYAN: You want the whole paragraph read? 15 BY THE WITNESS: 16 A. Here we go: "Public policy issues, 17 related to the largely unfounded concerns about 18 health hazards of chrysotile asbestos, have brought 19 recent attention to New Idria. Fluvial transport 20 of chrysotile asbestos from the New Idria district 21 eastward via Los Gatos Creek and Cantua Creek 22 (phonetic), into the San Joaquin Valley, as well as 23 westward via the San Benito River, has been taking 24 place for a great length of time, possibly for as ^WoCfz, and. c^fisociatzi, One. CHle/ujo, OttinoU (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021625 172 1 much 12 million years. 2 "Since the completion of the California 3 aqueduct, which interferes with normal drainage 4 patterns, some of the chrysotile asbestos has gone 5 into the canal mainly under flood conditions. 6 Therefore, the downstream users of this water have 7 found chrysotile asbestos fibers in the water. 8 "Concern about the possibility health 9 hazards of this condition has been greatly 10 overstated. The hazard is negligible. It will be 11 a matter for science and public policy together to 12 find a safe and economical solution to this issue. 13 BY MR. GRBITZER: 14 Q. That statement, would it be fair to say, I 15 is similar in content to your second paragraph of 16 your abstract? 17 A. Yes. It appears to be a somewhat 18 similar phraseology. It would take a word-for-word 19 comparison to see what the differences are. The 20 idea is the same. 21 Q. The idea is the same. Fine. Is there 22 anywhere - 23 MR. RYAN: What page did you reference? 24 BY MR. GRBITZER: <T/l/ofc, <c/^oznfjz'U} and iociatei., One. Cfiicayo, fJCtinolx (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021626 173 1 Q. The abstract is 0-3, and the document 2 that he just read was from Chapter 7, Page 30.' 3 MR. RYAN: That's entitled, "Areas for Future 4 Research." 5 BY MR. GREITZER: 6 Q. Other than Page 0-3 and Page 7-30, is 7 there any section in your thesis that deals with 8 the issue that's set forth on the bottom of 0-3 and 9 the bottom of 7-30? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Can you tell me what sections deal with 12 those specific issues? 13 A. It would be in all of the chapters other 14 than the ones that you asked me about and we 15 excluded from consideration. 16 Q. And that's dealing with the formation of 17 the chrysotile in Coalinga as well as its different 18 -- strike that. The fact it has different 19 characteristics than asbestos found in Vermont and 20 Quebec, or wherever else in the world, the fact 21 that it is shorter and purer? 22 A. Those ideas are mentioned along with 23 other relevant ideas. 24 Q. Your bibliography starts on Page l, goes WKAA .,l (l/VoCfc., <z/^oiznrcxij and <z/f-i.socuikt.i fine. Cfiicayot Ottinoii # (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021627 174 1 through Page 32. Approximately 32 pages. Would it 2 be fair to say there are approximately seven or 3 eight articles per page? 4 A. Seven on the first one. 5 Q. I did a random sample myself. 6 A. Seven or eight looks good to me. 7 Q. So we have more than 200 articles that 8 you have cited, or abstracts in your thesis, is 9 that correct? 10 A. Looks that way. I have never counted 11 them. 12 Q. Other than the Mossman book that you 13 discussed, and I believe is listed there, are there 14 any other medical articles that you can recall are 15 cited in your bibliography? 16 A. There is very little medical literature 17 cited in this bibliography. 18 Q. Other than the Mossman one, if you want 19 to take a look, is there any specific one that you 20 can recall, medical, written by an MD, or 21 epidemiologist, dealing with asbestos? 22 MR. RYAN: If you recall. 23 BY THE WITNESS: 24 A. No, I don't recall. ^WoCfz, <zf^ounre.%^ and <=/f-iooiatzs., Ona. (l&icxujo, OCtinoi* (312) 782-Q0B7 UCAREF00021628 175 1 BY MR. GREITZER: 2 Q. You talk about a file on public policy 3 and asbestos. Did you refer to that file in the 4 preparation of your thesis? 5 A. I don't understand. 6 Q. When you were writing your thesis, did 7 you rely on information contained in the.articles a in your file that you maintained on asbestos and 9 public policy? 10 A. I relied on the information in those 11 articles in order to review things, like the 12 Guthrie and Mossman book which are cited. 13 Q. Would you have cited, if you can recall, 14 the articles in your asbestos and public policy 15 file in this bibliography? 16 A. I didn't cite them. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. Let me explain one other thing, for many 19 of the citations in this bibliography, these 20 citations, in turn, have many other citations 21 included, and it is common practice to cite a work 22 and the references therein. 23 MR. GREITZER: Off the record. 24 (WHEREUPON, discussion was had off WM ,^WoCfti, cz/^oiz.nlje.rj and <z/fs.ocuite,i 0^nc. (2/iicayo, fJCtinoi* (312) 792-8087 UCAREF00021629 176 1 the record.) 2 BY MR. GRBITZER: 3 Q. This Guthrie and Mossman article, did 4 you refer to articles or abstracts that were 5 referred to in that large Texas followup? 6 A. You mean in here? 7 Q. No, in your own individual research and 8 gathering of information, did you look at and read 9 the Mossman textbook? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And then refer to articles it cited? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q- Are there specific ones that you can 14 recall? 15 A. Not right at the moment. 16 Q. Are there ones that you have in any file 17 in your office that you would have read and copied 18 and maintained in your file? 19 A. And then done what with? 20 Q. Kept. 21 A. Kept, yes, these articles in my files 22 are things I thought worth reading and I kept them 23 in my file for that reason. 24 MR. GRBITZER: That's it for right now. WM O/VoCfe, <cf^oi.ejnrtx^ and c^fiiociatci, One.. CfiUc^o. OtCinoii (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021630 177 1 EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. BONEBRAKE: ^ 3 Q. I believe you testified earlier,. Dr. Van 4 Baalen, about 15 percent of the thesis focused on 5 chrysotile ultimately? 6 A. Roughly. 7 Q. Did your decision toinclude chrysotile 8 as an issue in your thesis occur after or before 9 you met Mr. Myers? 10 A. Try to rephrase this question here: Did 11 my decision to include chrysotile as an issue in 12 the thesis precede or follow my meeting with Mr. 13 Myers? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. I am tempted to say that all these 16 things occurred at about the same time in the 17 development of my thinking. I can't give you a 18 good sequence of events. 19 I think I stated earlier, it was not the 20 original intent of my thesis and research to deal 21 with chrysotile. When I got to New Idria and I 22 realized what the local geology was, it became 23 obvious that I was going to have to deal with that 24 as an issue. \VM ^WoCfz, ezffoizrdjc.xcj and c^f-iMciata, dJna. C&UafO. DKinoU (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021631 178 1 Mr. Myers was of logistical importance 2 in gaining access to this region of the district, 3 so I would say that the answer is these things . 4 occurred all at the same time. 5 Q. I think you testified earlier that you iI 6 have, up to this point in the deposition, discussed 7 all of the occasions on which you have consulted 8 with anyone relating to litigation, correct? 9 A. As far as I can remember, yes. 10 Q. Are there any other occasions that we 11 haven't already discussed where you have served as 12 a consultant in any way for any manufacturer of 13 asbestos products or supplier of asbestos products 14 or miners of asbestos products? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Have you everreceived anyarticles from| 17 any attorneys from Union Carbide? 18 A. Articles? 19 Q. Articles of any typerelating to 20 asbestos? 21 A. I received a copy of my expert 22 disclosure statement from Ed Ryan. 23 Q. I am talking about published articles. 24 A. Published articles? No. \V1?/A ^WoCjt, <zf^oi.trJjixcj and c^f-iAociatzi, {Jna. Ckuayo, OttinoU (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021632 179 1 Q. I believe you testified earlier that, in 2 your opinion, the health risks of chrysotile, 3 generally, is negligible, correct? 4 A. Right. 5 Q. In your opinion, is there anything about 6 the qualities of chrysotile, specifically from the 7 Coalinga mine, that render those fibers even less 8 of a health risk than other forms of chrysotile 9 fibers? 10 A. I believe - 11 MR. RYAN: Same objection on the medical 12 aspects of it. 13 BY THE WITNESS: 14 A. I believe that their small size and high 15 purity would further minimize their impact on human 16 health. 17 BY MR. BONEBRAKE: 18 Q. Is there anything else about their 19 qualities that further minimize their impact on 20 health? 21 A. There may be factors, but that's a 22 medical question, and that's as far as I can go. 23 Q. Are there any bases for that opinion 24 that we haven't already discussed here today? WM (l/\/o(fe, ecf^oitn&exej and czrf-i.iocia.tei., fine. ^ftico^o, OttinoLx # (312) 782-8007 UCAREF00021633 180 1 A. No, I think we have diacussed this 2 adequately. 3 Q. Page 0-3, which is part of your 4 dissertation, which we discussed already. I just 5 wanted to read to you the very first sentence of 6 the paragraph that you read earlier, which is, 7 "Public policy issues related to the largely 8 unfounded concerns about health hazards of 9 chrysotile asbestos have brought recent attention 10 to New Idria." 11 I wanted you to focus on the portion 12 that says, "largely unfounded concerns of health 13 hazards of chrysotile asbestos." 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Do you feel that you are professionally 16 qualified in any way to render the opinion that the 17 health hazards of chrysotile asbestos are largely 18 unfounded? 19 A. From a geological standpoint, yes. From 20 a medical standpoint, no. 21 Q. Can you explain that last answer a 22 little more? I am trying to find out what 23 geological health effects, as far as your opinions 24 would be. \W/i <zf^oi.nrz'itj and e^rf-iioaiata, One. Ckuayo. fJCCinoU (312)782-8007 UCAREF00021634 181 1 A. Let's say that there was an asbestos 2 deposit containing chrysolite asbestos that was-in 3 the vicinity of a large population center. I would 4 consider that to be a noteworthy hazard. 5 Q. And that's a geological opinion and not 6 a medical opinion? 7 A. Yes. The occurrence of that type of 8 asbestos deposit is a geologic fact. And the 9 geographical relationship to population centers is 10 also a geographical fact. 11 Q. Is there any other aspect of your 12 opinions from a geological standpoint that you will 13 be rendering at trial regarding health effects? 14 MR. RYAN: I think, let me state for the 15 record, that this witness is not going to be 16 offered to give any expert opinion regarding health 17 effects, but only what is disclosed in his expert 18 disclosure, which does not involve - 19 MR. GREENWOOD: He has made the distinction 20 between geological health effects and medical 21 health effects. 22 MR. RYAN: In response to your question. 23 MR. BONEBRAKE: Will he be rendering any 24 opinions regarding geological health effects at WM n/l/oCfz, ecffounfct'u} and. c^Moeiaiti., Due. Ckieago, fJttinoU (312)762-8087 UCAREF00021635 182 1 trial? 2 MR. RYAN: He will be offering no opinion-with 3 respect to this public policy issue, as you have 4 framed it in your questions, but will be limited to 5 his expert disclosure. 6 EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. GREENWOOD: ; 8 Q. That's what I want to go into next, 9 actually, in just a little bit. I broke it down, 10 and I just want to get the basis of the opinions as 11 they appear in the disclosure. 12 First of all, when you define 0 13 metamorphic petrologist, I got the metamorphic 14 part, but missed the petrologist part. 15 A. Petrology is a subdiscipline within the 16 earth's sciences that deals with the physics and 17 chemistry of rock formation. There are other 18 branches of the earth's science field that deal 19 with other things, for example, study of glaciers 20 or studies of earthquakes. 21 MR. RYAN: Off the record. 22 (WHEREUPON, discussion was had off 23 the record.) 24 BY MR. GREENWOOD: ^WoCft, and c^f-ixoeiatci., One. Cfilca^o, Ottlnoi% (312) 792-8087 UCAREF00021636 183 1 Q. One point that Mr. Greitzer brought up 2 earlier from your disclosure was the opinion theft 3 states that fibers from the Coalinga deposit are 4 easily separated into individual fibrils upon 5 contact with water. And I was just wondering what 6 the significance of that is? 7 MR. RYAN: Geologically? 8 MR. GREENWOOD: Geologically, yes. 9 BY THE WITNESS: 10 A. The statement refers to, actually, what 11 happens at the KCAC mill, where they dump the raw 12 ore into water, essentially, to separate out the 13 fibers. So that's the industrial process. 14 The reason why that can be done, the 15 reason why that's not only successful, but 16 commercially viable, is there is very little 17 holding these fibers together. 18 In other words, the forces holding 19 individual fibers together are extremely weak, so 20 it doesn't take much to separate them out. 21 BY MR. GREENWOOD: 22 Q. You have seen that process at the mill, 23 right? 24 A. I had a tour of the mill. \VJ?Aa Ql/oCfe, and c^fnoaiatci, dJnc. Chicago, Ottinoii (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021637 184 1 Q. Do you recall visible dust in the mill 2 while you were there watching the process? 3 A. I recall that there was, essentially, no 4 dust at the mill. 5 Q. And is it your recollection that the - 6 I don't know. I have never been there or seen the 7 process, really, not even been explained1to me, but a at one end of the process there is a bagging area, 9 is that right? 10 A. Yeah, that would be at the output end, li because the product that is sold commercially is 12 sold in bags. 13 Q. And do you recall any visible dust in 14 that area? 15 A. I didn't see any. 16 Q. Did you spend a day there? 17 MR. RYAN: At the mill? 18 BY MR. GREENWOOD: 19 Q. At the mill. 20 A. No, not that long. 21 Q. Did somebody take you on the tour? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Who was your guide? 24 A. One of the millworkers, and I don't WW/A <~WoCfe., 7and c, L na. dtiica^o, OtCinoii. (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021638 185 1 remember what his name was, but he gave us the tour 2 from the point where the asbestos ore comes in,the 3 door to the place where the bags go out the door, 4 Q. What's done with the bags of asbestos 5 once they are bagged? 6 A. You mean what happens to them 7 physically? 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. They are sold to customers, so they are 10 transported mainly by rail, as I understand it, to 11 the port of Oakland, where they are put on ships, 12 because the majority of the customers at this point 13 are Pacific Rim countries. This is my 14 understanding. 15 Q. And so they are loaded onto box cars of 16 the trains, is that right, the bags? 17 A. I assume so. I never saw any bags being 18 loaded onto box cars, but I believe that it is rail 19 transport to, I could be wrong, I believe it is the 20 port of Oakland. That makes sense, geographically, 21 but I have never witnessed that part of the cycle. 22 Q. I never had the benefit of looking at 23 your thesis before this deposition. Can you tell 24 me, basically, what is the proposition being I j and c^/fiiocCatci, 0nc. (JfiLctujo, Ottinoi* # (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021639 186 1 advanced by your thesis? 2 A. Proposition that is advanced by my j 3 thesis is best described in the abstract, so you 4 could familiarize yourself with that without having 5 to read the whole thing. 6 But, basically, what I attempted to do 7 was to describe the geologic history and:origin of 8 several of the features of the New Idria district. 9 It is a complicated region of North America. It 10 has been studied in specifics, or partial nature, 11 by other people, but I attempted to have a 12 comprehensive study of the entire district, explain 13 the origins and relationships of the various parts 14 through geologic time. IS Q. Is it going to be published, do you 16 know? ! 17 A. Yes, in two ways. Harvard doctoral 18 theses, and those of other universities, as well, 19 are routinely sent to University Microfilm in 20 Michigan, where they publish these theses. You can 21 retain a copy from them. 22 But, more importantly, this is generally 23 true in science theses, the individual chapters 24 would probably be submitted as separate manuscripts ^Wotjc, <zf^otn&vuj and c^fisoeiaits., One. GfiLaa^o, DtC&noii. I (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021640 187 1 to the appropriate journals. 2 Since the topics discussed in the thesis 3 are fairly wide-ranging, there would be multiple 4 manuscripts, each going to the most appropriate 5 journal for that topic. And some of the journals 6 have been mentioned already. 7 MR. GREITZER: Sorry to interrupt. One of 8 them has actually been published as a manuscript, 9 is that correct? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, Chapter 6 was published in 11 1993 . 12 MR. GREITZER: That's in the present form 13 today? Hasn't changed from 1993 up until today? 14 THE WITNESS: No. 15 BY MR. GREENWOOD: 16 Q. As far asscientific and medical 17 literature that you are relying on for your 18 opinions, we have talked about all of those 19 already, is that right, as far as you know? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And we have talkedabout all the tests 22 and analyses that you have performed already, is 23 that right? 24 A. No. ,^Vl/oCfe., <zffou,nlje.,u} and c^foociaisi One. &leayo, OCClnoi*. (312) 792-8087 UCAREF00021641 188 1 Q. What have we not talked about? 2 A. I was asked specific questions about 3 specific tests, but I was never asked what tests 4 did you perform or what techniques did you use. 5 That's all explained in Chapter 1, where there is a 6 rundown of all tests and run conditions used for 7 the research, but I was never asked to give a 8 list. 9 Q. But it is in Chapter 1, is that right? 10 A. That's right. Have you got the table of 11 contents there? You will see it. 12 Q. For the purposes of this case, would the 13 test and analyses that you performed be different 14 than what's in Chapter l? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Which youperformedfor your thesis? 17 A. No. 18 Q. As far as tests that others have 19 performed, have we talked about all of those that 20 you are relying on for your opinions in this case? 21 A. Other than othertests -- as published 22 in the scientific literature, we have been 23 discussing all day, yes. 24 Q. And that of Dr. Langer's, which is not a Wi?/A <l/Voljt, and c^f-xxociatcx, (Jna. Cfiicajo, UCCinoU (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021642 189 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 published article or anything he - A. That was an informal report, that's correct. Q. Have you reviewed any depositions of anybody deposed in this case, as a basis for your opinions? A. Could you unravel that jargon for me? Q. Have you reviewed any deposition testimony of anybody that has given testimony in this case in preparation for your deposition today? A. No. Q. Have you reviewed anybody's deposition testimony, that has given testimony in this case at all? A. No. Q. Have you reviewed anything from any of the other plaintiff's experts in this case? A. I don't know who the plaintiff's experts are, so I can't answer the question. Q. You mentioned one photo, which was a photo from a mountaintop looking down on the KCAC mine, is that right? A. KCAC mine is in the photo, but it's not specifically a photo of the KCAC mine. In fact, WM .,and <z$s.AocLak&i {Jne. Chicago, fJCtinol*. (312)782-8007 UCAREF00021643 190 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 the figure caption for that figure says that the figure is in there for another purpose. It just turns out the KCAC mine is in there. Q. Do you have any other photos of the KCAC mine in your files back in your office or at your home? A. Yes, I do. ; Q. When were those photos taken? A. During the years of the research between 1988 and the present. Q. Are they specifically of the KCAC mine? A. Some of them are, yes. Q. Do you have photos of the mining process ? A. Yes. Q. In action? A. Yes. ` Q. How about the mill, do you have any photos of the mill? A. No photos of the mill. Q. And all those photos you say were taken during the time of your research, I am sorry, what were the years? A. 1988 to present. No, let me make one ^WoCft, iz/tfo&enlrexg and c^iiocLatzi., dJnc. flitago, iJCtinol* (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021644 191 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 addition to that. On the occasion which we discussed when I visited the mine with Dr. Langer and Trevor Will and an unnamed attorney for Conned, I took photos of the sample gathering, pictures of us standing there with a shovel, that kind of stuff. Otherwise, all of the photos in my possession were related to my thesis research, and if you looked at the whole collection, the KCAC photos are incidental. Q. Obviously, you have heard of Conwed Corporation. A. I have. Q. What is your understanding of the type of company that Conwed is? A. They make tile. Q. Any particular kind of tile? A. I don't know. Q. Have you ever heard of Wood Conversion Company? A. No, Q. Have you ever heard of the town Cloquet, Minnesota? A. Cloquet, Minnesota? No. \VM e^o&zn&zxg and c^f-iiodatzs., $nc. CRuafo. OttinoU (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021645 192 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q. There used to be a Conwed plant there where they made the tile that you just spoke off You have never been there in any sort of capacity, have you? A. No. Q. Other than what we have talked about regarding the relationship with Union Carbide today, actually, I guess it's KCAC -- no, actually it is Union Carbide, do ' relationship with Union you have Carbide? any other sort of A. No. Q. Do you have any knowledge regarding medical histories or medical treatment of Union Carbide miners or millers? A. Knowledge of their medical histories, is that what you are asking? Q. Miners and millers at the KCAC mine? A. No, I don't have any knowledge about that. Q. You have never seenany workers' compensation documents regarding Conwed employees? A. No. Q. The millers in themill, did they wear protection when they were working, as far as VWf/A ^l/VoUft, ,and. cztf-iiocLatzi Ona. CZictyo, DttinoU (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021646 193 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 respirator? MR. RYAN: You mean that he saw? BY THE WITNESS: . A. I didn't see anybody, no. BY MR. GREENWOOD: Q. Wearing that type of protection? A. No. Q. Do you have any notes from your tour of the mine with Dr. Langer and Trevor Will? A. Yes. Q. office? Would that be in your files back in your A. Yes. Q. And were you there as a Union Carbide representative at that time? A. I don't know the answer to that question. Q. Were you there to guide them? A. No. That was done by the mine superintendent. I was there to supervise the collection of the samples, make sure that this was done in a scientifically appropriate manner, and to answer any general questions about the geology of the region that might come up during the day. So I WM efioiznljcu} and c^iiiocLatzi, One. dfticeujo, {JCCinoi* # (312)782-8087 UCAREF00021647 194 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 am not exactly sure who I was representing. I was retained by Union Carbide, but I didn't feel I was representing the company, so -- Does that explain it? Q. That answers my question, yes. A. It was not completely clear to me. Q. Have you reviewed any internal Union Carbide documents for this case? A. Earlier today, I was presented with a stack of stuff that looked like internal documents, and you saw me flip through those, but that's it. Q. Other than that? . A. No, I haven't seen those before, and I don't think I could say I reviewed them today. MR. RYAN: For the record, the witness is referring to the Hyde deposition exhibits. BY MR. GREENWOOD: Q. And this half-inch or so file that you have for this case, can you just tell me what's in that file? A. I have correspondence, for example, I have a letter from Ed Ryan confirming the logistics for this deposition. I have a thank-you letter for making the trip to California with Trevor Will and \1Wa ^WoCfe., and <z$i&oGiatzi, Cku^o. tJttinoU (312) 782-8087 <te- UCAREF00021648 195 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Art Langer, that sort of thing. Q. Mostly correspondence? A. Yes. - Q. Have we heard all of your opinions that you will be rendering at trial in this case today? MR. RYAN: As far as he knows, right? MR. GREENWOOD: To date. BY THE WITNESS: A. Everything that I know about so far, yes . MR. GREENWOOD: That's all I have. FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR. BONEBRAKE: Q. I have one question, try one more time. Do you feel that you are professionally qualified to render an opinion as to the health risks, if any, associated with the respiration of l chrysotile-containing fibers? A. That's a medical question you are asking there. Q. I am asking whether you feel you are professionally qualified in any way rendering an opinion on that issue. A. The best answer to that question would V\Wa (sffoienljzxg and c^isociatzi, Qna. Ckleayo, OttinoU (312)792-8087 UCAREF00021649 196 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 come from a medical professional, and not from me. Q. So you do not feel that you are qualified? A. No, not in a medical context. Q. In any professional context? MR. RYAN: He has already testified about his geological opinions. BY MR. BONEBRAKE: Q. That was related to another context, I think. It was related to, for example, the health risks involved in the California context, in other words, the ingestion of fibers through water, correct? A. There were questions about that. However, if I were asked in a health context question, specifically, about the mineralogy of chrysotile, I could answer those as a mineralogist. Q. But could you answer them with respect to whether those mineralogical qualities create a health risk when respired by individuals? A. No. MR. GREENWOOD: I am sorry, I did have just a few more. WW/A ,fWotf*. ezrfo&znlrcxg and <^/fs.ioeiatei. d)na. Ckicayo, OttinoLi. (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021650 197 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR. GREENWOOD: Q. Was your work on the thesis, was that funded by a loan or a grant? A. It was funded by several small grants from different sources, including, I think, these are mentioned in the thesis. There is something called the Reginald Daley Fund at Harvard University which is designed to support geological fieldwork, and that sort of thing. Q. Are any of those in any way related to Union Carbide or any other supplier or manufacturers or miner of asbestos? A. No. They were either the Reginald Daley Fund, which I just mentioned, or else competitive grants from scientific and professional associations. Q. The Mumpton and Thompson paper that you mentioned earlier, I believe you testified that you relied on that paper for the opinion that fibers from the Coalinga deposit are less than five microns in length? A. I believe that that paper had determinations of fiber length and that that was OA/oCft, tzrfo&enlrcxg and ociatci, One. {Jftictujo, tfttinol* # (312) 782-8067 UCAREF00021651 198 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 the source of the five micron figure. Q. Do you know what they did to reach that conclusion? A. I think they probably used an electron microscope, which is the appropriate technique. MR. GREENWOOD: That's it. Thank you. MR. RYAN: We are done. . FURTHER DEPONENT SAITH NOT. \VM ^WoCfe, ed^ou.n^e.%0 and <c/fisoeiate, One. Chicago, LIttlnoii (312) 782-8087 UCAREF00021652 199 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 STATE OF ILLINOIS ) ) SS: : COUNTY OF C 0 0 K ) IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS COUNTY DEPARTMENT - LAW DIVISION BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE ) CITY OF CHICAGO, et al. , ) Plaintiffs, ) No. 92 L 9934 vs. ) No. 92 L 9933 A, C & S, INC., et al., ) No. 92 L 9932 Defendants. ) I hereby certify that I have read the foregoing transcript of my deposition given at the time and place aforesaid, consisting of Pages 1 to 198, inclusive, and I do again subscribe and make oath that the same is a true, correct and complete transcript of my deposition so given as aforesaid, and includes changes, if any, so made by me. MARK VAN BAALEN SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO before me this day of , A.D. 1995. Notary Public WWi <l/Vo[fe, <^oie.n&fuj and dftica^o, Ottinolx # (312) 782-8097 , (Jna. UCAREF00021653 200 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 STATE OF ILLINOIS ) ) SS: '' . COUNTY OF C 0 0 K > . I, JOANNE H. RICHTER, a Notary Public within and for the County of Cook, State of Illinois, and a Certified Shorthand Reporter of said state, do hereby certify: That previous to the commencement of the examination of the witness, the witness was duly sworn to testify the whole truth concerning the matters herein; That the foregoing deposition transcript was reported stenographically by me, was reduced to typewriting under my personal thereafter i direction and constitutes a true record of the testimony given and the proceedings had; That the said deposition was taken before me at the time and place specified; That the reading and signing by the witness of the deposition transcript was agreed upon as stated herein; That I am not a relative or employee or attorney or counsel, nor a relative or employee of such attorney or counsel for any of the parties WM Cfiteayo, Othnoii (312) 782-8087 fjnc. UCAREF00021654 201 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 hereto, nor interested directly or indirectly in the outcome of this action. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I do hereunto set my hand and affix my seal of office at Chicago, day of <^v. Illinois this -- 1995. uJiJXa_ County, Illinois. My commission expires October 22, 1997. JOMMEHRICHTBt MY COMiSSION EXPffCS October 22,1997 C.S.R. Certificate No. 84-2082. WM ^WoCfc, <fx?o.nlj&'Uj and CkcdfO, Ottinolx (312) 782-8087 , tfne. UCAREF00021655 202 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WITNESS INDEX MARK VAN BAALEN By Mr. Greitzer By Mr. Bonebrake By Mr. Greenwood EXHIBITS NUMBER VAN BAALEN DEPOSITION EXHIBIT No. 1 EXAMINATION 5 177, 195 182, 197 MARKED FOR ID 47 One. C&iaeujo, OCCinoii (312} 782-8087 UCAREF00021656