Document rkapwQ6YRBwnb773nOVvE4Qe

RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 2 Bendix, Dana 3 Corporation, and NAPA by: 4 5[T 6 Indian Head Industries: 7 8 AP P EARAN CE S (VIA TELEPHONE) TROY BAILEY Cetrulo & Capone 2 Seaport Lane 10th Floor Boston, MA 02210 JAMES KOUTRAS McCarter & English, LLP One Financial Place 755 Main Street 18th Floor Hartford, CT 06103 Qz) 10 Weil-McLain: 11 12 13 Crane Company: 14 15 16 International Truck & Engine 17 by: MAUREEN POMEROY Pierce, Davis & Perritano, LLP Ten Winthrop Square Boston, MA 02110 , RAY VENO Governo Law Firm, LLC 260 Franklin Street Boston, MA 02110 CHARLES K. MONE Campbell, Campbell, Edwards & Conroy One Constitution Plaza 18 19 Goulds Pumps by: Boston, MA 02129 KEVIN C. McCAFFREY 20 Cullen and Dykman, LLP 177 Montague Street 21 Brooklyn, NY 11201 22 23 24 25 IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 Page 3 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 INDEX 2 Witness Examination 3 RONALD BRASS...........(Mr. Deaton)................... ... 5 4 (Mr. Bailey)................. ... 141 5 (Mr. Deaton)................. ... 148 6 7 8 EXHIBITS 9 Exhibit Marked 10 Exhibit 1....................................................................... ... 38 11 (Parts Computer Printout) Exhibit 2....................................................................... ... 103 12 (Transcript of Congressional Testimony) Exhibit 3....................................................................... ... 112 13 (Caution Label) Exhibit 4....................................................................... ... 113 14 (Memo) Exhibit 5....................................................................... ... 15 (Warning Label) Exhibit 6....................................................................... ... 16 (Model 1500 Operator's Manual ) Exhibit 7....................................................................... ... 17 (3-23-79 Memorandum) Exhibit 8a and 8b................................................. ... 18 (Series 55 Operator's Manuals ) Exhibit 9...(NOT MARKED).............................. 114 116 121 120 19 Exhibit 10.................................................................... ... 20 (List of Agricultural Dealers ) Exhibit 11.................................................................... ... 21 (8-28-67 Letter) 132 137 22 23 24 Certificate of Shorthand Reporter... ... 151 25 IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 Page 4 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 5 1 RONALD BRASS, 2 being first duly sworn, was examined 3 and testified as follows: 4 EXAMINATION BY MR. DEATON: 5 Q. Good morning, Mr. Brass. 6 A. Good morning. 7 Q. We had the pleasure of meeting -- at least 8 it was my pleasure -- yesterday. And you were here in 9 the case of Robert and Ann Girouard versus various 10 companies, including Deere & Company. And I noticed 11 that you were present at yesterday's deposition - 12 A. I was. 13 Q. -- of Mr. Hitzhusen. Just so you know how 14 the process works - 15 A. I understand. 16 Q. -- a couple preliminaries. I'm going to ask 17 questions, and if you could give verbal responses, 18 please. Although the video will be able to see you 19 shake your head yes or no, like we usually do in common 20 conversations, the court reporter will not be able to. 21 So we have a clear record, a verbal response is what's 22 required. 23 Also, if I ask a question and you are 24 confused, just tell me you need clarification, and I 25 will be happy to rephrase the question. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 A. That's fine. Page 6 2 Q. If you don't, I will assume that you 3 understood it and answered my question accordingly. 4 Okay? 5 A. I think that's fair. 6 Q. Thank you, sir. 7 Just a little background at first. You are 8 being offered today as a corporate representative of 9 John Deere. 10 A. That's correct. 11 MR. SCHWARTZ: On certain designated 12 topics, yes. 13 MR. DEATON: Yes, on certain designated 14 topics. I'm not going to ask the same questions that I 15 asked Mr. Hitzhusen yesterday. 16 Q. (BY MR. DEATON) Do you currently work for 17 John Deere? 18 A. I'm currently employed as a consultant by 19 John Deere, yes. 20 Q. And how long have you been a consultant for 21 John Deere, sir? 22 A. Actually, I was a full-time employee until 23 December 1st of 2001 and have done some consulting work 24 for Deere since that time. 25 Q. Before we get into the -- your prior IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 your educational background, please. Page 9 2 A. Yes. I have a bachelor of science degree 3 from Iowa State University in agricultural engineering 4 that was granted in 1966. And a master of science 5 degree also in agricultural engineering and also from 6 Iowa State University that was granted in 1970. 7 Q. After graduation did you go straight to John 8 Deere? 9 A. Actually, I went to John Deere before 10 graduation. I worked for John Deere for two summers 11 before I graduated from college with a bachelor's 12 degree. And then generally continued my employment 13 except for interruption for military service and also 14 for the time that it took to obtain my master's degree. 15 Q. What year did you begin full-time employment 16 with John Deere? 17 A. Actually, I started full-time employment 18 with Deere in 1966, and then that was interrupted, as I 19 said, by military service and then by about 15 months, 20 I believe, as I went back to school. 21 Q. After the military experience and school, 22 when did you go back full-time for Deere? 23 A. I believe that would have been in 1970. 24 Q. And you worked from 1970 until, did you say, 25 199- -- 2001? IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 A. Until the end of 2001, yes. Page 10 2 Q. Thank you. 3 What was the first -- let's start with 1970. 4 What was your role at John Deere in 1970? 5 A. I worked at what was then known as John 6 Deere Planter Works, or very briefly after that 7 combined with John Deere Plow Works, the name then 8 being John Deere Plow and Planter Works. And my 9 assignment was primarily to work on row crop planting 10 equipment, the equipment that plants corn, soy beans, 11 sugar beets, and products of that kind. 12 Q. What did you do, other than talking with 13 Mr. Schwartz or any of the in-house counsel at John 14 Deere, to prepare for this deposition? 15 A. Well, I've at least read parts of the five 16 installments of Mr. Girouard's verbal deposition, and 17 I've watched part of the video deposition that 18 Mr. Girouard gave. I've looked at a number of records 19 and so on that have to do with Deere and the subject of 20 asbestos. I've talked to a number of people in the 21 Deere organization and even several retirees that may 22 have had some knowledge about the use of asbestos23 containing products in Deere machines. 24 Q. Could you give me the names of who you spoke 25 to in preparation of this deposition, other than IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 attorneys? Page 11 2 A. I could try to give you them. I'm not sure 3 that I could give you all of them - 4 Q. The best you can do, sir. 5 A. -- without leaving someone out. 6 With respect to some of the construction 7 equipment products, I spoke with a gentleman named 8 Jerry Ihm. Actually, Gerald Ihm with a G. I spoke 9 with a gentleman name John Johannsen. Spoke with a 10 gentleman name Al Smemo. I spoke with a gentleman 11 named David Stubben. I spoke with an associate that 12 helped identify some of the records, Jayne Clemens. 13 And I suspect a number of other people, too, in a more 14 casual way, but those people in a more deliberate way, 15 I think, with respect to the subject. Also a person 16 named Doug Bode -- B-O-D-E -- in the construction 17 equipment area. 18 I spoke with several people from other units 19 that Mr. Hitzhusen had mentioned yesterday, Duane Bass. 20 I spoke briefly with Duane Bass. I spoke with a 21 gentleman from the Product Engineering Center or 22 retired from the Product Engineering Center that 23 designs agricultural tractors, named Dwight Soper, and 24 also a gentleman named Strauzheim. I've spoken with a 25 person from the corporate records area. Les Stegh is IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 17 1 fabrication of the parts that they were selling to us. 2 And so one of the inputs to Deere was the fact that 3 suppliers notified us, told us that they would like to 4 change the parts to nonasbestos parts. 5 The issue of asbestos, as a second reason, 6 was becoming more well-known, and asbestos was a 7 concern to a number of people, obviously. And so Deere 8 felt, as a corporation, that it was in our best 9 interest to eliminate asbestos from the various 10 components that we had. And I think the basis for that 11 primarily is that Deere feels that the corporation is a 12 good corporate citizen, and we try to do the right 13 thing with respect to issues that occur around and 14 surrounding the company. 15 Q. We are going to get into some of the -- some 16 of these issues later, but you say the suppliers came 17 to Deere and said that they wanted to remove asbestos. 18 What did Deere do? Did they do anything independent of 19 the suppliers to say, Hey -- you know, reach out to the 20 suppliers and say, You need to stop making asbestos, 21 give us something free -- asbestos-free? 22 A. I think that was - 23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Stop, Mr. Brass. You 24 have to give me a chance of preserve a record, make a 25 record here. I understand you are eager to respond. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 18 1 But objection to form. 2 A. (CONTINUING) I think it clearly was a joint 3 effort. Deere recognized the issues relative to 4 asbestos, and the suppliers recognized the issues 5 relative to asbestos and the hazards that may be 6 associated with, in their case in particular, 7 fabrication of parts that contained asbestos. So we 8 cooperated jointly on that effort. From the standpoint 9 of engineering, no party could do that alone. It had 10 to be a joint effort. 11 Q. Now, you said that Deere simply purchased 12 these products from the suppliers. I want to follow up 13 on that comment. 14 It is fact, is it not, sir, that Deere 15 repackaged these products in Deere packages and held 16 them out as genuine Deere parts? 17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 18 A. In part, that's true. Many of the parts 19 that were purchased were actually installed in 20 machines, the new machines that Deere was 21 manufacturing. So those parts would not have been 22 repackaged or sold as individual parts. They would 23 have been sold as part of a larger machine. 24 Some parts were purchased for use as repair 25 parts or sold by Deere for use as repair parts, and IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 19 1 some of those parts were repackaged. And because they 2 would fit and work in John Deere machines, they were 3 advertised as genuine John Deere parts. 4 Q. Okay. 5 And some of those parts that were held out 6 as genuine John Deere parts would be brake linings, 7 correct? 8 A. I believe that to be correct, yes. 9 Q. And clutch facings, correct? 10 A. In some cases, that would be true, sure. 11 Q. What about gasket material? Did John Deere 12 package, let's say, drive train gaskets in a package 13 that was labeled with John Deere? 14 A. I believe that to be true, yes. For the 15 convenience of customers, gaskets were often gathered 16 together and put in a package, a single package, and 17 offered as a kit, we would say. So when someone 18 rebuilt a transmission or rebuilt an engine, they would 19 have all of the necessary gaskets without having to 20 look them up one at a time. 21 Q. And you also just said something 22 interesting, that if someone was going to rebuild an 23 engine or perform maintenance. In your experience, 24 isn't it common that the end consumer, the farmers 25 themselves, would do their own maintenance with the IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 earlier two-cylinder John Deere tractors? Page 20 2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 3 A. I think that depends a great deal on the 4 capability of the individual and, I think, as 5 Mr. Hitzhusen said yesterday, the time limits that was 6 required. Many farmer customers, if you go back to the 7 era of the '40s or '50s, did some repair on their 8 machines themselves. Many of them would not have 9 attempted to do an engine rebuild, for example, on 10 their own. They may well take the machine to the 11 dealer to do that kind of work. 12 Q. But it was a common practice for farmers to 13 do some of the maintenance and repair work on their 14 tractors? 15 A. Sometime they did, yes. 16 Q. Did you speak to any other employee or 17 consultant of John Deere that has previously testified 18 as it related to asbestos? 19 A. No, I don't believe so. 20 Q. To your knowledge, is thereanyone else at 21 John Deere that would have more knowledge on the sale, 22 distribution, and knowledge of asbestos as it relates 23 to John Deere? 24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 25 A. I honestly don't know who that would be. As IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 21 1 I said, knowledge relative to the subject that we are 2 talking about is quite widely dispersed in a 3 decentralized organization such as Deere. So I 4 wouldn't be able to name someone that I felt had more 5 information. 6 Q. Okay. Let me back up. 7 What did you do when you worked a couple 8 summers at John Deere? 9 A. I worked at John Deere Planter Works and was 10 involved in the design of planting equipment. At that 11 time, in particular, vegetable-planting equipment. 12 Q. Did you hold various titles through John 13 Deere? 14 A. Over a period of years, yes. 15 Q. Were you involved with any products that 16 were asbestos-containing through the years? 17 A. I was involved with a lot of John Deere 18 products. The planting equipment, I recall, probably 19 didn't contain asbestos-containing parts. But we 20 worked closely with the tractor people with respect to 21 implement compatibility and so on. So we used those 22 products regularly and had those products at other site 23 locations for use in testing and so on. 24 Q. What was the last title that you held at 25 John Deere prior to your retirement, sir? IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 22 1 A. Engineering specialist is the job title that 2 I was given at the time. 3 Q. What were the scope of your duties? 4 A. Essentially, the duties that I had fell into 5 four areas. One of the primary areas was to consult on 6 issues of safety relative to John Deere products; in 7 particular, John Deere construction equipment products 8 or construction of forestry products, because that's 9 the division of the company I worked in. 10 I also was involved in patents relative to 11 John Deere products. I was chairman of the patent 12 committee at Dubuque and Davenport, encouraging people 13 to disclose inventions that were made by Deere people. 14 I was periodically involved in what we call 15 vendor agreements where we had a joint development 16 effort going with a supplier where we would, together, 17 try to develop a component that would be suitable for 18 one of our needs. 19 And then, as I said before, I was sometimes 20 involved in matters that involved litigation, in 21 particular, with respect to injury accidents. 22 Q. Speaking of vendor agreements, does John 23 Deere, in your experience, maintain records as it 24 related to which vendors were approved for different 25 products? IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 23 1 A. Yes. Deere has maintained records of which 2 vendors are approved. When a part is currently being 3 purchased, there would be an approved vendor or a list 4 of approved vendors. However, if your question goes 5 back to have all of those records been maintained, 6 typically, when suppliers are dropped off and new ones 7 are added, Deere may not have that record. That record 8 may not be saved. 9 Q. And we are going to get into some of the 10 vendors of asbestos-containing component parts in a 11 little bit. 12 You brought up the records sometimes are not 13 maintained. What's the retention policy at John Deere 14 for maintaining those records? 15 MR. SCHWARTZ: I'm going to object to 16 form. Overbreadth. Can you narrow it, John, to - 17 MR. DEATON: I'm going to ask him if he 18 can answer it. If he can't, then I will try to get 19 more specific. 20 A. I wouldn't be able to ask the question as 21 you asked it. Records fall into different categories. 22 Different categories of records are maintained for 23 certain periods of time. And, in some cases, there is 24 no retention policy or period for them at all. 25 Q. Let's take your last position. You said IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 that you were involved with some vendor agreements. Page 24 2 How long would those normally be kept? 3 A. Those would probably be kept for a period of 4 time after the development agreement occurred. And I 5 think each agreement probably has within its text the 6 length of time that the agreement would be in effect. 7 And there might even be something with respect to the 8 retention of the records that would be transferred 9 between the companies, and so on, as part of that 10 record. I don't know of any specific retention period 11 for that category of documents overall. 12 Q. What about manuals for the tractors, owners' 13 manuals, things of that nature? 14 A. To the best of my knowledge, owner's 15 manuals, at least in a form that they can be 16 reproduced, are kept for all the products that John 17 Deere has manufactured. So you should be able to get 18 an operator's manual for a product that was 19 manufactured, say, in 1935 or even in 1915. 20 Q. Those would be in John Deere archives? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What about the agreements, the approved list 23 of brake lining manufacturers during the period of 1938 24 to 1950? I'm trying to get specific for you. 25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 25 1 A. I don't -- I have not become aware of any 2 list of approved suppliers that's been maintained with 3 respect to, say, brake linings on even a specific model 4 of a tractor, say a John Deere Model A tractor. I 5 think the best information that we could accumulate 6 would be from people who might have some recollection 7 of who the vendors were at that time. 8 Q. Do you have any records that relate to 9 asbestos-containing component parts, listing the 10 approved vendors during any time period? 11 A. I think there may be some records. And 12 maybe I should just add to my last response a little 13 bit. Some of the engineering drawings that were 14 available at certain periods in time did identify an 15 approved vendor or supplier. So some of the names may 16 be available through that source, as well as the 17 recollection of some people, as I mentioned. But I 18 know of no place where those records have been 19 specifically stored for each part for any specific 20 period of time. 21 One of the things that would typically 22 happen is that a supplier might be used for a period of 23 time, say a year or two or three, and then possibly 24 another supplier would sell the parts to us for the 25 next year or two or three. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 26 1 Q. Speaking of suppliers, I looked at the 2 answers to interrogatories produced by Deere & Company 3 in this case. Have you reviewed them at all, sir? 4 A. I haven't recently, no. I did see them at 5 some point in the past. So I don't have a specific 6 recollection. 7 Q. Do you remember the different suppliers -8 strike that. 9 Do you remember the names of any suppliers 10 of the brake linings? 11 A. I don't remember specifically which would be 12 included in responses that you are referring to. Brake 13 linings, in general, were supplied, to my knowledge, by 14 companies like Raybestos, Raybestos Manhattan , Raymark, 15 sometimes by Bendix, possibly by Borg-Warner. 16 Sometimes they may have been by a division of Dana 17 Industries . 18 Q. We are talking about your last answer 19 responded to the brake linings. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. So you recall Bendix as it relates to brake 22 linings, correct? 23 A. That's my recollection, yes. 24 Q. And you remember Dana Corporation? 25 A. Yes. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 27 1 Q. You mentioned Raybestos and Raymark. Anyone 2 else you can think of for brake linings? 3 A. Not off the top of my head especially 4 relative to the period of time that you are talking 5 about. 6 Q. Now, what about clutches? 7 A. Essentially, similar list of people would 8 apply to clutches and brake linings. Manufacturers of 9 those components usually had something in common. 10 Q. And I mentioned earlier you mentioned 11 Borg-Warner. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What about gaskets? And I have reviewed 14 some of the documents that were provided to me. 15 It's -- some of them are in the documents, so I can 16 rely on them. But I'm just asking you what you 17 specifically recall, having looked into this area, as 18 far as, let's say, cylinder head gaskets or manifold 19 gaskets. 20 A. Victor would have been one of the potential 21 suppliers, not saying that they were a supplier of a 22 specific gasket. But Victor would have been a specific 23 supplier . The others, I just don't recall the names. 24 Q. Okay. 25 As far as the other types of gaskets -- and IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 28 1 I have a list, you know, fully oil-sealed gaskets and 2 reduction gear cover gaskets and things of that 3 nature -- same answer as it relates to the suppliers? 4 A. If you are talking about components made of 5 other materials such as rubber, you would be into 6 vendors like Chicago Rawhide and people like that, I 7 think. They would not, I believe, have supplied us 8 with asbestos-containing parts. 9 Q. Okay. 10 I went through the documents that were 11 provided by Deere & Company last night and yesterday, 12 and I'm going to name some of the things, and I want 13 you to tell me if you can recall whether or not that 14 was an asbestos-containing gasket -- or, asbestos15 containing part. I'm sorry. 16 MR. SCHWARTZ: For what - 17 MR. DEATON: For Deere tractors and 18 balers. 19 MR. SCHWARTZ: For the tractors at 20 issue in this -- that Mr. Girouard owned? I mean, we 21 have a huge fleet of lots of tractors over many years 22 of time. 23 MR. DEATON: I understand. It's based 24 on the documents that were provided to me. Some of the 25 documents, I want to be up-front and candid, are hard IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 29 1 to read for me. And so there is codes and things of 2 that nature that I will ask you if you can decipher. 3 So I can't say absolutely it covers, you know, 1939 to 4 1985, but it's the documents provided by Deere as it 5 relates to the tractors in question in this case. So 6 that's how I will answer your question. 7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Maybe it would be easier 8 if you just showed him the document and asked him 9 questions. I don't want to tell you how to do it . 10 MR. DEATON: If I show him the 11 documents, you and I won't make our plane at 4:15 and 12 we will be here until Sunday, because there were over 13 thousands and thousands of documents provided to me. 14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, let's try to get 15 through this. 16 MR. DEATON: Absolutely. 17 MR. SCHWARTZ: But I don't want - - I 18 guess I just don't want any misunderstanding that he is 19 being held to whether this particular gasket was in a 20 90-1000 made in 1995 that we know is at issue in this 21 case. 22 MR. DEATON: I think that's fair and 23 I'm not trying to imply that. I'm just going to name 24 the things that were identified in the documents. Some 25 of them were clearly marked. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 30 1 Q. (CONTINUING) But, anyways, we've already 2 talked about clutch facings. It's fair to say, in your 3 investigation, that the tractors in question in 4 Mr. Girouard's case, if they came from John Deere, they 5 were asbestos-containing for those tractors. Would you 6 agree with that? 7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 8 MR. SANDERSON: I will object. Lack of 9 foundation. 10 A. Certain parts within the tractors that we 11 are talking about, the Models A, B, G, and H, at the 12 time that they were manufactured, would have 13 contained -- would have included asbestos-containing 14 parts. 15 MR. SCHWARTZ: And there has been 16 testimony that at some point these parts no longer 17 contained asbestos. 18 MR. DEATON: Sure. 19 MR. SCHWARTZ: I don't want the answer 20 to suggest that they are asbestos-containing from day 21 one through today. 22 MR. DEATON: And I don't mean to imply 23 that. 24 Q. (BY MR. DEATON) Just so that we can clear 25 that up, because maybe I didn't ask that question yet, IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 you said in 1985-ish John Deere became focused on Page 31 2 removing asbestos from all their parts. When did John 3 Deere completely stop selling asbestos-containing 4 products? 5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 6 A. To the best of my knowledge, that would have 7 been approximately 1996, before the last of the parts 8 were removed from our system. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. I might add that I believe the parts that we 11 were talking about with respect to A, B, and G 12 tractors, and so on, were removed -- were changed 13 before that time. But there are a lot of parts in the 14 John Deere system, and a lot of effort was required to 15 address every one of those parts. 16 Q. Do you know when the parts for the A -- when 17 I say parts, do you know when the clutch facings for 18 the Model A would have been nonasbestos? 19 A. I'm not sure my memory is good enough to 20 give you an exact date, but it's my recollection, in 21 looking at the records, that the asbestos-containing 22 parts for the models that we were talking about were 23 eliminated in 1988 or 1989, somewhere in that area. 24 Q. So, obviously, the answers to my questions 25 are before '89. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 A. Yes. Page 32 2 Q. We already mentioned the clutch facings. 3 The brake linings, fair to say that, in your knowledge 4 and investigation, that the brake linings were 5 asbestos- containing? 6 A. Yes. The tractor models that were 7 manufactured from the '40s and '50s and so on, in the 8 group that we are talking about, would have included 9 asbestos-containing brake linings. 10 Q. And also I'm asking the replacement parts 11 all the way up until the '80s for those tractors, such 12 as the brakes, would have been asbestos-containing? 13 A. To the best of my knowledge, that's true, 14 yes. 15 Q. Off the top of your head, do you know what 16 the average asbestos content for the brake linings 17 would have been? 18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 19 A. Just from my general knowledge of the parts 20 that we are talking about, the asbestos content 21 probably was in the neighborhood of 30 percent. The 22 majority of the material in the brake linings was 23 actually either resin binder or some sort of steel 24 fiber filler or a component like that to make this 25 composite surface, the solid surface or the solid part. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 33 1 Q. In the time period that we've already 2 discussed, the manifold gaskets for the tractors in 3 question, those would have been asbestos-containing, 4 correct? 5 A. I believe that to be true, yes. We are 6 talking about exhaust manifold gaskets, not necessarily 7 intake gaskets. But exhaust manifold gaskets would 8 have been asbestos-containing in that era. 9 Q. And the pulley brake linings would have been 10 asbestos-containing, wouldn't they, same era? 11 A. I think you are referring to the pulley 12 brake on the exterior of the belt pulley that we looked 13 at yesterday, and that would have been, yes. 14 Q. That would have been asbestos? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Now, the cylinder head gasket -- and I think 17 you already mentioned that one of the suppliers was 18 Victor -- that would have been asbestos-containing in 19 this time period, would it not? 20 A. Yes. Cylinder head gaskets are a bit of a 21 specialized product because they were typically encased 22 in a metal material. But, yes, inside of that metal 23 material there would have been asbestos in the era that 24 we are talking about. 25 Q. The crankcase cover gasket, that would have IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 been asbestos, wouldn't it? 2 A. I have not investigated that part Page 34 3 specifically because I wouldn't have guessed that that 4 would have been a part containing asbestos. 5 Q. What about the tappet lever shaft bearing 6 gasket? 7 A. If I understand the part that you are 8 talking about, that would have probably been another 9 steel-encased gasket that may have included asbestos in 10 its interior. I'm not sure that gasket was applicable 11 to As and Bs and Gs, though. 12 Q. What about Hs? 13 A. I'm not sure it was applicable with Hs 14 either. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. I think that may have been an earlier 17 product that applied to some earlier machines. And 18 that's an estimate on my part. That's just my 19 understanding of how they were constructed. 20 Q. It wouldn't be part of the unstyled Model A? 21 A. I don't believe so, but I, obviously, 22 can't -- I cannot answer that question concisely. 23 Q. What about the cylinder water outlet gasket? 24 A. I did not investigate that part either 25 because I would not have anticipated that as being an IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 asbestos- containing part. Page 35 2 Q. Would it surprise you if, in fact, it is -3 it was, I should say, an asbestos-containing part? 4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 5 A. Just from my engineering knowledge, I would 6 expect that it was not asbestos-containing, but I have 7 not reviewed that part, so whatever the drawing says 8 would be what -- or, what the specifications say, that 9 would be the material. 10 Q. What about cylinder head water inlet gasket? 11 Any different than the outlet? 12 A. I don't believe so, no. I would not have 13 expected that to be an asbestos-containing gasket, 14 although, as I said, I couldn't be sure as I sit here 15 today. 16 MR. DEATON: We have construction going 17 on, so we have to apologize to any of the viewers on 18 the videotape. Nothing we can do. So we will press 19 on. 20 Q. (BY MR. DEATON) The pulley oil seal gasket, 21 what's your opinion on that one -- 22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 23 Q. -- as it relates to asbestos in that era? 24 A. Well, first of all, I have a little 25 difficulty because I'm not sure exactly what part we IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 36 1 are talking about. But if it truly is an oil seal, I 2 would not have expected it to be an asbestos-containing 3 part. Although, again, that would be something that, I 4 believe, our records may indicate. 5 Q. Pulley brake bearing gaskets. 6 A. I would not have expected that to be an 7 asbestos-containing part either. 8 Q. Reduction gear cover gasket. 9 A. I wouldn't have expected that to be an 10 asbestos-containing gasket either, again, just based on 11 my engineering knowledge, not that I've looked at those 12 parts specifically. 13 Q. Tappet lever cover gasket? 14 A. I'm not sure I can answer it all because I 'm 15 not sure exactly what that part is. 16 Q. What about a brake housing gasket? 17 A. I do not believe that would have been an 18 asbestos-containing part. 19 Q. What about a clutch fork bearing gasket? 20 A. I don't believe that would have been an 21 asbestos-containing part either. 22 Q. How about cylinder-to-case gasket? 23 A. I don't believe that would have been an 24 asbestos-containing gasket. 25 Q. A pulley dust shield gasket. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 37 1 A. I don't believe that would have been an 2 asbestos-containing gasket either. 3 Q. Main bearing cover gasket? 4 A. I don't believe that would have been an 5 asbestos-containing gasket. 6 Q. Vent pump cover gasket. 7 A. I don't believe that would have been an 8 asbestos-containing gasket. 9 Q. How about the carburetor-to-manifold gasket? 10 A. I don't believe that would have been an 11 asbestos-containing gasket. 12 Q. Finally, how about the carburetor gasket? 13 A. I don't believe that would have been an 14 asbestos-containing gasket either. As I said, all of 15 these parts we've just talked about, beyond the brakes 16 and clutch facings, are parts that I have not -- and 17 head gaskets, pardon me, I have not investigated the 18 other parts specifically, but I do not believe, from my 19 engineering knowledge, that they would have been 20 asbestos-containing. 21 Q. But if the specifications in the drawing, 22 for example, called for a steel-braided asbestos 23 gasket, you would certainly defer to that. 24 A. I would defer to what the available 25 information would show us, sure. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 38 1 Q. You mentioned several suppliers. And I 2 guess I could cut to the chase and ask you, do you 3 remember the time frames of those suppliers? I will 4 give you an example of what I'm getting at. You 5 mentioned Bendix as a supplier. Do you know what time 6 frame that Bendix began or ended being a supplier for 7 Deere? 8 A. I really wouldn't be able to answer that 9 question, at least, as I sit here today. The only 10 thing that I probably can say about many of those 11 suppliers is they were rather continuous suppliers for 12 Deere of some parts, but they may or may not have been 13 specific suppliers for the Model A, B, G, H, as we have 14 talked about them. 15 Q. With that said, I won't go through each one. 16 Is your answer going to be consistent with each 17 supplier? 18 A. Right. I won't be able to tell you the 19 dates that these suppliers supplied specific parts to 20 us as I sit here today. 21 MR. DEATON: Bear with me. 22 Can I have this marked, please? 23 (Brass Exhibit 1 was marked for 24 identification.) 25 Q. (BY MR. DEATON) Sir, I'm handing you what IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 has been marked as Exhibit 1 for your deposition. Page 39 2 MR. DEATON: For the listeners on the 3 phone, it's, basically, a computer print-out. That's 4 all I could describe it as, and so I will let the 5 witnesses tell me if he - 6 MR. SCHWARTZ: What's it marked as? 7 MR. DEATON: Exhibit 1. 8 Q. (CONTINUING) Once you've had a chance to 9 review it, just look up at me. And the first page is 10 fine, unless you want to look at the others. 11 A. If the camera wants to take a look at the 12 kind of document. 13 Q. Sure. 14 The reason I handed it to you is because I 15 was provided with hundreds and hundreds of these types 16 of pages. As you can imagine, they don't mean much to 17 me. So I didn't know if you could tell me what this - 18 what appears to me to be some kind of printout, what 19 that is. 20 A. Essentially, this is a part -- it's from a 21 computer database that describes a lot of the factory- 22 related information relative to a part. And in this 23 particular case, it includes the information as to when 24 this part was used. 25 Q. Could you point, just for my clarification, IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 sir - Page 40 2 MR. SCHWARTZ: I think he was in the 3 middle. 4 MR. DEATON: I'm sorry. I didn't mean 5 to interrupt you. We will do that afterwards. I 6 apologize. 7 A. There is just a few things that I will point 8 to here. The date, it shows the 7th of June of 2002. 9 I believe that would have been the date this document 10 was printed, and it has no other relevance except that 11 that's the date that it was printed. 12 It talks about a gasket, cylinder head, or 13 as we would say, a cylinder head gasket, which appears 14 to be part No. GX52221A. And it was cancelled at R, 15 which means that it was cancelled at Waterloo. R is 16 the unit code for Waterloo. And it was cancelled by 17 decision No. 101344R, again, indicating the Waterloo 18 area. 19 It says, "Transfer of service responsibility 20 to RG." I'm a little rusty on my unit codes here. 21 Either that is the component at Works or the Tractor 22 Words or the Product Engineering Center that controls 23 it. But it just says that the responsibility of 24 providing service parts is transferred. 25 It says that -- there is a process code. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 41 1 I'm not sure I know exactly what that means. The date 2 in, which is here as 0- - 3 COURT REPORTER: Sir, I'm having a 4 really hard time hearing you with the stuff in back of 5 me. 6 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I will try to 7 go slower. 8 COURT REPORTER: Speak up a little bit, 9 okay? 10 A. (CONTINUING) There is a process code. I 11 don't know exactly what that means without asking 12 someone for help. There is a date in, which, in this 13 case, the field just shows four zeros. And, 14 essentially, what that means is the part was in our 15 system before the computer database was generated. So 16 it doesn't show a beginning date for the part. 17 The date out was the 28th of May, 1985, 18 which says that this part was taken out of our system 19 and no longer used on the 28th of May of 1985, by 20 decision, I should say. And the last activity that's 21 shown here is the 16th of August, '88, which, I 22 believe, means that the last use of that part was in 23 August of 1988. 24 It shows some other things about control 25 factor, which is RE. I believe that's the Product IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 Engineering Center, the people that design the Page 42 2 tractors. Service Y means service yes. In other 3 words, the part would be provided in general as a 4 service part, but that would refer to the replacement 5 part. 6 Main assembly D, I don't know what that 7 means. Drawing, yes, means there is a drawing of this 8 particular part. There is some material information - 9 or, pardon me -- some specification information that 10 I'm not sure that I can decipher without, as I say, 11 asking for some help, because I don't typically look at 12 this kind of a screen. 13 It would typically give the weight, if there 14 is a significant weight to this part. Apparently, this 15 is a very minor part in terms of weight. But it does 16 give the weight of this part. Sometimes we would give 17 a shipping weight if it's shipped separately, for 18 example, or somehow collectively. 19 Service, yes. Furnished by DY, which, I 20 believe, is the Parts Distribution Center. Material to 21 steel, asbestos to surface treated, so it would appear 22 from this that the description of the part is that it 23 is an asbestos-containing gasket that has a steel 24 surface, knowing this kind of part, probably on both 25 sides, or it's an encased part. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 43 1 Victor Gasket Manufacturing Company was 2 the supplier of the part at the time that it was 3 discontinued. It's not a history, but it tells us that 4 that was the supplier at the time that it was 5 discontinued. Then it gives a decision history with 6 all of the decision numbers that would have applied to 7 this part during its life. And then it says replaced 8 by F487 which I would expect to be the part number of 9 the replacement part. 10 And that's generally -- the information on 11 this screen is useful to a number of people, so it 12 includes more information probably than any one person 13 uses. But it gives the information that a number of 14 people in our factory, for reasons of production 15 control and so on, would have an opportunity to refer 16 to. 17 Q. Now, you mentioned several of those -- you 18 see why I had a hard time with it. You mentioned 19 several of those codes you didn't know off the top of 20 your head. Is there a master code list at John Deere 21 for someone to decipher this? 22 A. I believe that would be true, yes. 23 MR. DEATON: Alan, I'm going to request 24 that that be produced. 25 MR. SCHWARTZ: The request is noted. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 44 1 MR. DEATON: Thank you. 2 Q. (BY MR. DEATON) It also talks -- I'm sorry. 3 You mentioned decision numbers. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Would there be documentation still at John 6 Deere showing the decision that these numbers are 7 referring to? 8 A. Yes. To the best of my knowledge, all of 9 the decisions relating to parts and products have been 10 retained, and this decision should be available, or a 11 copy of it should be available from one of our systems. 12 It may be one of the older systems, such as microfilm. 13 Or, in this case, probably new enough that it is 14 available from a database. 15 MR. DEATON: Just for the record, once 16 I get to review all of the documents to see if those 17 decisions are included -- I think I'm being told that 18 they are. I just haven't had have the opportunity. I 19 appreciate you -20 MR. SCHWARTZ: John, you haven't done 21 your homework yet, completed your homework. 22 MR. DEATON: No. I'm good, but I can't 23 read 6,000 pages in one night. 24 Q. (BY MR. DEATON) All right, sir, let's -25 what products -- type of products did John Deere not IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 repackage and hold out as genuine Deere parts as it Page 45 2 related to these tractors in question? 3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form and 4 scope. 5 A. I think, in general, I can't recall an 6 exception. If Deere purchased the part as a repair 7 part, it typically would be identical to the part that 8 was in the original machine or a completely 9 satisfactory replacement for that part. And if Deere 10 purchased it and distributed it, I would expect that it 11 would have fallen under the category of genuine John 12 Deere parts. 13 Some parts are probably outside of the John 14 Deere system, such as tires and things like that. But 15 I think if it's within the John Deere system and has a 16 specific relationship to the design of the product and 17 was sold as something that would fit and be a repair 18 part, it would have been called a genuine John Deere 19 part. 20 Q. Other than John Deere dealerships, did John 21 Deere supply parts to other businesses as John Deere 22 genuine parts, other than the dealers themselves? 23 A. I think maybe it deserves clarification. 24 John Deere dealers are independent businesses, and 25 actually John Deere would simply sell these parts to a IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 dealer, and the dealer would then inventory them or Page 46 2 sell them to customers. 3 There may be some occasions where Deere sold 4 products to a governmental unit directly or to the 5 military directly because those people had ordered 6 products. It wouldn't generally apply to A, B, and G 7 tractors in any way. 8 Q. What about, like, local hardware stores or 9 places like that, other distributors other than John 10 Deere dealers? Would they be -- would it be available 11 to go to another supplier and get a John Deere - 12 genuine John Deere brake lining, other than the dealer, 13 is what I'm trying to get at? 14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 15 A. I don't believe so, no. I think that you 16 would have had to have gone to a John Deere dealer or 17 to a John Deere parts store to get a part that would be 18 truly categorized as a genuine John Deere part. 19 Q. Do you recall seeing the packaging that 20 these suppliers provided with the products in question? 21 Strike that. 22 Let's go with the brakelinings, for 23 example. When one of the suppliers that you mentioned 24 earlier supplied the brake linings for John Deere, how 25 were they packaged? IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 47 1 A. I think it varies a great deal by -- not 2 only by part but by time frame and so on, because 3 packaging technology was also moved along. And, quite 4 frankly, I can't tell you what service part packages 5 looked like in 1940 or 1950 or even 1960. The John 6 Deere parts were packaged in a way suitable for the 7 particular part in question. 8 Some of them were put in boxes, some of them 9 were put in plastic bags, some of them were put on a 10 cardboard sheet and shrink-wrapped over the top like 11 some of the things you might buy in a hardware store, 12 for example. Some were put in cloth bags, depending on 13 what the particular part was. 14 So there was a lot of packaging technology 15 and change, of course, over the years because things 16 like shrink-wrap are now much more common. But I think 17 all of those parts would have been identified in some 18 way if Deere distributed them as John Deere parts, 19 either with a label or a tag or a box with a logo. 20 MR. SCHWARTZ: I think you guys are 21 misunderstanding. 22 MR. DEATON: I was going to clarify. 23 Q. (BY MR. DEATON) What I was getting at was 24 when John Deere received the products from the 25 manufacturers, how they were packaged and arrived to IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 John Deere? That's what I was looking at. Page 48 2 A. I'm not at all sure that I can answer for 3 every case. Many of the parts would have been received 4 in a container that was larger than an individual 5 package and then some of them would have been 6 repackaged into a pair of brake shoes or an individual 7 part, for example. And, yes, Deere would have done 8 some repackaging. I don't recall specifically. I had 9 in my head that maybe some of the parts were actually 10 supplied to Deere already in John Deere boxes. We may 11 have provided some containers for people. I'm not sure 12 about that. 13 Q. Do you recall personally seeing any of the 14 packagings of any of the asbestos products in question 15 from any of the suppliers? 16 A. I don't have a specific recollection. I 17 don't believe I -- I think -- I've seen lots of parts 18 and so on, but at the time that I saw those parts, I 19 probably wouldn't have made a distinction between 20 asbestos-containing and nonasbestos-containing parts. 21 And I just wouldn't be able to answer your question. 22 Q. All right. 23 Sir, do you recall at any time seeing any 24 warnings on those parts as they arrived from the 25 manufacturers as it relates to asbestos? IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 49 1 MR. SCHWARTZ: John, you are asking him 2 for his personal recollection at this point in time? 3 MR. DEATON: Yes. And I will make that 4 distinction. 5 Q. (CONTINUING) I'm asking you personally. 6 You were an employee for many years, so when I'm asking 7 just -- so we don't have to do this the rest of the 8 day, if I preface it with personally, I'm not asking 9 that that answer be bound -- that John Deere 10 Corporation be bound by your personal knowledge. 11 Memory, I should say. 12 A. It's difficult to answer your question in 13 part because there are issues of time frame here. I'm 14 sure there were periods of time where -- was a period 15 of time where I would not have expected to see any 16 warnings coming from suppliers. 17 If your question was do I believe that 18 sometimes suppliers may have shipped parts to us 19 accompanied by warnings, at least in more recent times, 20 I think that may be true. I believe that's probably 21 true, but I don't have a specific recollection of a 22 part or a specific warning. 23 Q. Okay. 24 From your investigation and preparation for 25 this deposition, when did John Deere first put a IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 warning on any product as it related to asbestos? Page 50 2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 3 A. My recollection is that the first warnings 4 were used by Deere relative to service parts, those 5 packagedparts that may have been distributed to 6 dealers. The beginning date for that, as best I've 7 been able to determine, is approximately June of 1987. 8 Q. What led you to be able to give such a 9 specific date? 10 A. In the records somewhere I believe there was 11 a letter that talked about initiating a labeling 12 process at the Product Distribution Center -- Parts 13 Distribution Center. 14 Q. Now, do you recall -- and I will first ask 15 you as corporate designee -- do you know when John 16 Deere first started receiving warnings on the asbestos- 17 containing products from manufacturers? 18 A. No, I - 19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 20 A. (CONTINUING) No, I don't. I don't have any 21 information that discloses that to me. 22 Q. Now I will ask you personally. Do you 23 recall ever seeing any warnings prior to 1987 on any of 24 the asbestos-containing products supplied by the 25 suppliers? IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 51 1 A. No, I don't have a personal recollection of 2 that. 3 Q. If a supplier that John Deere used -- if 4 they've stated in this case in discovery that warnings 5 on their products started beginning in the '70s, is it 6 fair to say that John Deere did not place a similar 7 warning on the John Deere box at that time? 8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 9 A. I'm not aware of Deere placing labels on its 10 boxes prior to 1987. As I said, that's simply the 11 result of my investigation, and I can't be absolutely 12 sure that that's the very first. But I believe that's 13 the first that's associated with repackaging of parts. 14 Q. Since you've been -- I'm sorry. Go ahead. 15 A. I don't have a specific recollection of 16 warnings being provided prior to that time. 17 Q. You sort have been involved with safety all 18 your life , correct, or your professional life? 19 A. I've tried to be safe most of my life, yes. 20 But I've been involved with issues of safety primarily 21 since about 1986 for the corporation. 22 Q. Sure. 23 And for the corporation, do you agree that 24 the end consumers of John Deere products should be 25 informed of any potential hazards as it relates to John IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 Deere products? Page 52 2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 3 A. John Deere does inform users of its 4 equipment of hazards that we believe can be real, yes. 5 Q. And if it turns out that the manufacturers 6 of the asbestos-containing products that John Deere 7 used and repackaged as John Deere genuine parts -- if 8 John Deere received warnings in the '70s, then John 9 Deere failed in providing that warning to the end 10 consumer? 11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 12 A. I think you are asking a question that 13 assumes some things that maybe really aren't correct. 14 With respect to the parts that Deere purchased, Deere 15 has had no information, does not believe that those 16 parts presented a hazard to the users of John Deere 17 equipment or to those people servicing that equipment. 18 We have a long history of, basically, millions of 19 machines. And the relationship of asbestos-related 20 injuries with our products is simply not there. 21 Q. Well, again, the product that you received 22 from the manufacturers, say, the brake lining, that was 23 in finished form, was it not? 24 A. That was true, yes. 25 Q. And if that package was received with a IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 53 1 warning on it from that supplier, my question, sir, is, 2 shouldn't John Deere have provided the warning that was 3 provided to them by the supplier to their end consumer? 4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 5 A. Let me answer that in two parts, I think. 6 When Deere believes that the warning has merit for the 7 customers of our products, then we would typically 8 include that kind of a warning, whether it came from a 9 supplier, whether it was originated within the Deere 10 organization. And I think that's the criteria that 11 Deere used. 12 The suppliers were in a somewhat different 13 situation than Deere was with respect to their 14 manufacture of these components and the use of raw 15 asbestos in the manufacturing process.Deere was not 16 involved in that part of the activity, used these 17 products in a way that we believed was safe for our 18 customers. And as I said before, there has been no 19 evidence that that was not true. 20 Q. Again, my question was -- let me ask it this 21 way, sir: I'm not talking about a warning of the raw 22 asbestos fiber that the suppliers used. I'm talking 23 about the finished product that the suppliers shipped 24 to John Deere. Who would be better off to know the 25 dangers, a distributor such as John Deere or the actual IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 company that made the finished product, in your Page 54 2 opinion? 3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 4 A. I'm sorry. I might have been confused by 5 the question because I thought you asked about the same 6 party. Maybe you can repeat your question. 7 Q. Sure. 8 My question to you is, you said that John 9 Deere makes warnings or places warnings when they feel 10 that a product is a danger, correct? 11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 12 A. When Deere believes that there is a risk 13 associated with the use of the product, servicing the 14 product, or other contact with the product, then 15 Deere's practice is to provide a warning. 16 Q. And you made it clear that you don't - 17 Deere doesn't believe that the John Deere brakes, 18 asbestos-containing brakes, were a danger. Is that 19 fair to say? 20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 21 A. When those parts were installed in a product 22 or with people servicing the product in any reasonable 23 way, I do not believe -- and I can speak for the 24 corporation, I think, in saying we do not believe that 25 that was a danger or risk relative to asbestos to the IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 user or the servicing person using that product. Page 55 2 Q. So my question is, who is better off at 3 assessing the potential risk of the finished product, 4 the manufacturer who actually made the product or John 5 Deere who simply distributed it? 6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to the form. 7 A. I think the only way I can answer your 8 question is to say that Deere assesses the risks 9 associated with its product. And I say that in an 10 all-inclusive way. That would be a risk of injury from 11 some kind of entanglement or mechanical device of some 12 kind. And it would also include topics like we are 13 talking about today, the use of an asbestos-containing 14 part. Deere always assesses those risks to the very 15 best of our ability. 16 Q. And if it turns out that the manufacturers 17 of the finished product in question -- the brake 18 linings, clutches, and gaskets that we've been talking 19 about -- made a determination that they would put a 20 warning on that finished product as they shipped it to 21 John Deere, and John Deere did not provide that same 22 warning or similar warning to the end consumer, then 23 John Deere, basically, said, Those manufacturers, they 24 just got it wrong. We've assessed the risk and we are 25 going to ignore that warning. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 56 1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 2 A. I don't think John Deere said what you said 3 at all. I think the manufacturers, for whatever 4 reason, included that warning, if they said they did 5 and if they actually did, for reasons of their own, 6 for business reasons or because of their concern for 7 safety, maybe because they didn't know how those parts 8 ultimately would be handled. 9 Deere would make an assessment of the 10 hazards relative to the product that we sold and would 11 warn if we believed that that was necessary or 12 important and would not warn if we didn't believe that 13 it was necessary or important. 14 Q. Let me ask you, just -- if the manufacturer 15 believes what warnings should go on it, just out of an 16 abundance of caution to the end consumer, why not just 17 rubber stamp the same warning on the John Deere box? 18 A. I think I've already answered your question. 19 Because Deere's assessment of the risk associated with 20 its product didn't indicate that that would be the 21 case. I can't speak for the suppliers or the reasons 22 that they had for including the warnings, but it may 23 believe that they were not completely assured of the 24 end use of that kind of component. 25 Q. Okay. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 57 1 You mentioned earlier that you believe that 2 the asbestos content on these various products that 3 we've been talking about was somewhere in the range of 4 30-percent asbestos. Is that correct? 5 A. Let me qualify that just a little bit. I 6 was thinking, when the question was asked, about brake 7 pads and clutch facings and so on, and some of the 8 other components may have had somewhat different levels 9 of asbestos content. I just may not be as familiar 10 with them as the brakes and clutches. 11 Q. Fair enough. 12 Are you aware that there are different types 13 of asbestos fibers? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. How did you become aware that there were 16 different types of asbestos fibers? 17 A. In learning about asbestos and in looking at 18 some of the information that's available on the website 19 and so on relative to the Environmental Protection 20 Agency and OSHA and organizations of that kind. 21 Q. What approximateyear did you learn that 22 there are different fibers? 23 A. I may have known there were different fibers 24 before, but the specific investigation probably was in 25 the last three or four months. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 58 1 Q. Would it be for your consultation in this 2 case that you are providing to Deere? 3 A. Yes. The specific study was done relative 4 to the issue of asbestos in Deere's products. 5 Q. Do you know what type of fiber was used in 6 the asbestos products distributed by John Deere? 7 A. I don't have specific information about each 8 individual part. It's my understanding that suppliers 9 of parts like this typically supply parts containing 10 chrysotile. It's my general understanding that that 11 was the most commonly used form. I would expect that 12 that is the material that you would find in most, if 13 not all, of the John Deere components. 14 MR. SCHWARTZ: John, it's 10:30. Do 15 you want to take a - 16 17 18 break. MR. DEATON: Sure. Absolutely. We are going to take a ten-minute 19 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the 20 record. 21 (A discussion was held off the record.) 22 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the 23 record. 24 Q. (BY MR. DEATON) Mr. Brass, before we went 25 on break, we were discussing the different asbestos IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 59 1 fibers and what John Deere -- what type of fibers went 2 into John Deere products that were distributed. And I 3 think you said you believe it was chrysotile? 4 A. I believe that to be true from all the 5 information that I have, yes. 6 Q. Would it surprise you if some of the 7 products may have been amosite-containing? 8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 9 A. I wouldn't have expected that to be true. 10 As I said, I've not looked into the detail of all of 11 the chemical compositions or the compositions of the 12 components. In fact, Deere does not always know 13 exactly what is in the products. But it's my belief 14 that the products that we've discussed primarily 15 contain chrysotile, as best as - 16 Q. Deere did offer and distribute Wisconsin 17 engines on certain balers; is that correct? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. And do you know who the supplier of the head 20 gasket was for the Wisconsin engines? 21 A. No, I do not. I haven't looked at that. 22 Q. When you reviewed the videotape, did you 23 review that part of Mr. Girouard's testimony where he 24 discussed the Wisconsin engine? 25 A. I don't believe I got that far. I don't IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 remember that. Page 60 2 Q. Fair enough. 3 Now, yesterday's deposition that you were 4 present for, I showed some photos, and there were 5 numbers or some kind of data on brake linings. You may 6 recall us going through those questions with Tom. Is 7 there any way to tell by the numbers who manufactured 8 the brake lining? 9 A. I don't believe just by the numbers. I 10 can't speak to all of the identification means that 11 suppliers used. Sometimes suppliers do print on, for 12 example, a part or have some kind of a date code that 13 they use relative to their parts. But unless that's 14 specified on a Deere drawing or found on a part, then 15 we wouldn't have information about that. 16 Q. Do you know when Deere first started sending 17 out brochures or pamphlets as it related to after- 18 market products of the brake linings and things of that 19 nature? 20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 21 A. I can't speak to specifically about brake 22 linings, but I think for a long time, probably within 23 the entire period that I worked for Deere, that there 24 was some information available about repair parts, 25 service parts, and their availability for John Deere IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 machines. Page 61 2 Q. You would agree with me that John Deere, 3 through the years, has always encouraged their 4 consumers to use genuine John Deere parts? 5 A. I think I would probably say we've 6 consistently encouraged people to use John Deere parts. 7 Always, as Tom said yesterday, is a very inclusive 8 term. But from a consistent standpoint, yes, we've 9 encouraged customers to do that. 10 Q. Is it your experience that different parts 11 from different manufacturers of, say, tractors are 12 interchangeable? 13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 14 A. That depends. If they are intended to be 15 used in exactly the same way and have the same 16 characteristics and meet the specifications, for 17 example, provided by Deere, if they fit correctly in 18 both cases and are expected to perform in the same way, 19 yes, then we would probably call them interchangeable. 20 Sometimes we do replace a part or add a second supplier 21 that has a so-called interchangeable part. 22 Q. Do you think that, say -- you know that 23 Mr. Girouard had other tractors. Are you aware of 24 that? 25 A. Yes, I'm aware of that. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 62 1 Q. Do you think that the International 2 tractors, the brake lining for that, is going to match 3 up with a John Deere tractor? 4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 5 A. I think that's a different question than I 6 think I tried to answer a minute ago. I would 7 anticipate that the parts, in general, used by other 8 manufacturers would only fit on their machines or would 9 not fit on John Deere's. 10 Q. You would agree it was a good idea for the 11 consumer to use genuine John Deere parts for John Deere 12 tractors? 13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 14 A. We would recommend that for reasons of 15 performance and reliability and safety and so on, yes. 16 Those were the reasons that we consistently recommended 17 the use of genuine John Deere parts. Now, do you have any experience personally, 19 I'm talking, in repairing or maintaining John Deere 20 tractors? 21 A. To a certain extent, yes. Could you explain to me what your experience 23 consists of? 24 A. Well, I grew up on a farm in Iowa, and the 25 tractors that we had on our farm were John Deere B and IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 aa 00 \--1 CN CN RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 63 1 John Deere A tractors, and, in fact, a John Deere GP 2 was an older model of machine. From the standpoint of 3 doing minor maintenance, we did that on our tractors. 4 From the standpoint of major maintenance, such as an 5 engine overhaul, we had the John Deere dealer do that. 6 Q. Do you consider replacing the brake linings 7 minor maintenance? 8 A. I believe that we did that on one occasion 9 on one of our tractors, yes. I think we would consider 10 that to be maintenance that a reasonably qualified 11 person could accomplish. 12 Q. What about clutches? 13 A. And I think the same is true there. I think 14 Mr. Hitzhusen said yesterday that these tractors were 15 designed with a specific purpose of being relatively 16 simple. And that during the era that they were 17 manufactured, it was anticipated that some customers 18 would do some service on their tractors. 19 Q. That was a benefit of having a simple 20 two-cylinder tractor. 21 A. That was one of the advantages of this 22 product, yes, or products of the era that we are 23 talking about, specifically the Model A and the Model G 24 and the Model B and the Model H. 25 Q. I mean, a 2002, 2003 tractor won't be quite IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 as simple? Page 64 2 A. It, quite frankly, won't be nearly as 3 simple. There are lots of devices and electronics and 4 so on that simply weren't present in 1945. 5 Q. Now, have you witnessed the repair or 6 maintenance of John Deere tractors by, let's say, 7 certified mechanics of John Deere? 8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 9 A. Yes, I have. I've visited a number of 10 dealerships and I've watched a number of service 11 operations being performed since 1977. Since I was 12 associated with the Construction Equipment Division , 13 much of that would have been relative to construction 14 machines, not agricultural tractors. 15 Q. So you've witnessed certified mechanics at 16 John Deere dealerships repair brake linings? 17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 18 A. I've seen them do that, yes. I mean, it 's 19 not something that I remember studying at the time, but 20 I have seen mechanics do that, yes. 21 Q. In your experience, sir, based on your 22 experience and what you know, was it a common practice 23 for John Deere mechanics to use air compressors to blow 24 out the dust and air in the brake assembly? 25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 65 1 A. It's not something that I recall. I 2 wouldn't have anticipated that very many people would 3 do that. 4 Q. Why is that? 5 A. First of all, the brakes are not so 6 complicated or so delicate that they need precise 7 cleaning. In the general sense, we are not talking 8 about something that travels 70 miles an hour here. 9 And so the need to clean completely thoroughly probably 10 isn't there. If there is grease or some other 11 contaminant there or rust that needs to be clean up, 12 then a mechanic can do that. But I have not seen 13 people use compressed air. I'm not saying that no one 14 has never done that, but I've not seen it. 15 Q. How many repair, installation of brake 16 linings do you think you've witnessed? 17 A. I suppose in the neighborhood of a half a 18 dozen or so. Not a lot. It's not something that I 19 said that I really focused on before. I think 20 Mr. Hitzhusen has much more experience in that area 21 than I would. 22 Q. You mentioned that you didn't think that it 23 would normally be done. Would you be surprised if a 24 former John Deere certified mechanic from a dealership 25 said it was a common practice? IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 66 1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 2 A. I would not contest someone who said that's 3 something that I did or I believe that was a common 4 practice for me. Individual mechanics develop their 5 own habits, and that may be the case for a particular 6 person. 7 Q. Now, you mentioned earlier that John Deere 8 never manufactured the asbestos-containing products. 9 Is it fair to say that John Deere specified in the 10 specifications for the products or what was to be used? 11 A. I think there are cases where it was 12 specified, for example, on the engineering drawings 13 more as a result of acknowledging that that particular 14 material met the performance requirements or the 15 durability requirements that John Deere was asking for. 16 In effect, assurance that the performance, reliability, 17 safety aspects of the part would be met. Sometimes the 18 specific material was specified. Often it was a little 19 less than completely specific. It might have been 20 talked about. An example that we are talking about, 21 asbestos, an asbestos material, but may not give the 22 detail of the composition. 23 Q. Let me ask you this: If the specification 24 supplied by John Deere to the manufacturer specified 25 asbestos-woven -- steel-woven asbestos, the supplier IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 wouldn't have a choice but to make that product Page 67 2 consistent with the specification, correct? 3 A. To meet John Deere specifications, that 4 would have been the agreed-on material, yes. It may 5 have been agreed on jointly with the supplier or as a 6 result of some test work that Deere had done that that 7 was found to be satisfactory. But once it was 8 specified by Deere, then that would be the anticipated 9 material that we would receive. 10 Q. The supplier had no choice at that point in 11 time; would you agree with that? 12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 13 A. I don't think it's quite correct to say the 14 supplier had no choice. Suppliers frequently come to 15 us with recommendations for changes in parts and 16 materials. In fact, we encourage that so that we can 17 improve our products, so we don't lock into a 18 particular design forever, believing that that is 19 ultimately the best. Sometimes suppliers have more 20 knowledge than we do about the use of the parts or the 21 composition of the material and what might be superior 22 to what we are using. 23 Q. For example, they might have superior 24 knowledge as to whether or not a warning should be on 25 the product. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 68 1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection. 2 A. I don't agree with that. I think that's an 3 incorrect statement. 4 Q. All right. 5 A. If you are -- and I should qualify that. If 6 you are talking about a John Deere product, a product 7 that Deere sold, I don't believe the supplier had 8 superior knowledge. 9 Q. Although they made it? 10 A. They may have superiorknowledge about their 11 product or they may have incomplete knowledge about the 12 end use of the product, but I think Deere has the most 13 knowledge about the use and servicing of its own 14 equipment. 15 Q. I was going to move on, but are you -- their 16 product is the finished product. If we are talking 17 about a brake lining supplied by Bendix or anyone else, 18 their product is that finished brake lining, is it not? 19 MR. BAILEY: Object to form. 20 A. That was their finished product, but that 21 doesn't necessarily tell them completely about the end 22 use of that part. The part that you are talking about 23 from the supplier, if it is designed to fit into a John 24 Deere tractor and that's the only use of it, it's value 25 is only when it's installed in a John Deere tractor. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 69 1 Q. When John Deere received, say, the 2 asbestos- containing brake lining, what did they, then, 3 do to modify or alter the finished product as they 4 received it from the supplier? 5 A. Typically nothing. We expected the parts to 6 be usable to us without modification. 7 Q. You mentioned earlier that you didn't think 8 it was -- you would be -- you didn't think it was 9 necessary for the air compressor when dealing with 10 these friction products. Did you ever witness a 11 mechanic use a wire brush to brush off, say, the brake 12 shoe? 13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 14 A. I don't remember seeing that for a brake 15 shoe, no. Sometimes wire brushes are used, most 16 typically , to remove rust or something like that from a 17 part. 18 Q. Did you ever see one of the mechanics grind 19 sand or cut the new brake itself in order to get it to 20 fit properly? 21 A. No, I haven't seen that. 22 Q. Do you think that would be a common 23 practice, based on your experience? 24 A. Not if the user was using parts purchased 25 from Deere, I wouldn't expect that to be the case. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 70 1 Q. So would it surprise you if a former John 2 Deere mechanic from a dealer were to say that that was 3 a common practice at times? 4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 5 A. I have no reason to believe that that would 6 be a common practice. Obviously, I can't speak for a 7 mechanic who is capable for speaking for himself. I 8 have no reason to believe that would be the case. 9 Q. In your opinion -- strike that. 10 Why did John Deere use asbestos-containing 11 parts in the first place, sir? 12 A. I think, in a nutshell, because those parts 13 performed very satisfactorily under the conditions that 14 were a part of the John Deere machine. They were - 15 they helped us provide a product that was good in terms 16 of performance. It was very reliable. It was safe, 17 for example, in terms of its stopping capability, had 18 long-term durability, wasn't subject to deterioration 19 as some other parts might be. So the asbestos20 containing parts had some genuine benefits. 21 Q. Okay. 22 Is it Deere's position that during the 23 relevant time period that we've been discussing that 24 there weren't adequate substitutes for asbestos? 25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 71 1 A. I think that's a very interesting question, 2 because I think it requires speculation. What was 3 accepted at the time and what was known to perform very 4 well was asbestos-containing parts. Because they 5 performed so well and because it wasn't -- no other 6 materials were known or tested to do that job as well 7 as the asbestos-containing parts, then the asbestos8 containing parts were used. 9 Q. Are you sure, sir, that no other tests and 10 studies were done to show that nonasbestos friction 11 products were adequate? 12 A. I think I would have to qualify that - 13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 14 A. -- by saying that Deere didn't conduct tests 15 on its own machines. I think, from an engineering 16 standpoint, it would be clear that information from 17 some other industry or business may not be directly 18 transferrable to a company like Deere or to the 19 products that Deere manufactured. 20 Q. Why didn't Deere conduct some tests to see 21 if asbestos-free would be adequate? 22 A. Deere did ultimately conduct tests to see 23 whether asbestos-free would be adequate and, after some 24 considerable testing, did find substitutes for the 25 asbestos-containing parts. In some cases, they may not IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 72 1 have performed quite as well as the asbestos-containing 2 parts, but we accepted that as a trade-off. The 3 characteristics of the asbestos-containing parts were 4 actually very excellent for the uses that we made of 5 them in the products. 6 Q. When did Deere begin this research, sir? 7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 8 A. Well, I think the researching that I'm 9 really referring to most specifically began in that era 10 beginning in about 1985 where alternative materials 11 were seriously tested in Deere products. Some of the 12 weaknesses of those substitute materials that were 13 proposed to us were clearly found during that period of 14 time. As those weaknesses were overcome, then the 15 substitutes were adopted. 16 Q. Do you know what -- you said 1985 was when 17 the focus began. Do you know when the asbestos-free 18 was utilized? 19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection. Asked and 20 answered. 21 Q. (CONTINUING) And I may have -- if I asked 22 that already, I apologize. 23 A. The answer to that question is, it depends 24 on the part. Some parts required substantial testing 25 to verify that they worked, they performed IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 73 1 satisfactorily, that they maintained the safety issues 2 relative to the product. And then, of course, others 3 were less difficult to substitute. Each unit of Deere 4 did this work relative to their own products because of 5 our design responsibility. So the work was not all 6 accomplished on the same day but over a period of time. 7 Q. Which products were harder to comply with 8 the asbestos-free? 9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 10 A. It depends a little bit on which product 11 that you are talking about. If you are talking about 12 products like tractors and construction equipment, the 13 more difficult parts would have probably been the 14 clutches on those machines; sometimes the brakes on 15 those machines, because there are requirements in terms 16 of the stopping distance and so on that our products 17 are expected to meet. 18 Durability was really a fundamental issue. 19 Some of the early substitutes that were provided to us 20 simply did not last very long at all. Some of the 21 substitutes were subject to moisture accumulation. And 22 on seasonal products, where the product was stored over 23 the winter for six months or nine months before it was 24 used again, those parts actually bonded together and 25 didn't perform the way they were supposed to. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 74 1 So there were a number of issues that were 2 to be overcome, and it depends very much on which 3 individual part you are talking about and which machine 4 you are talking about. 5 Q. You said some substitutes created moisture. 6 Could you tell me which substitutes you were talking 7 about? 8 A. I could only refer to them categorically. 9 We probably referred to them in the engineering 10 organization as cellulose-based facings, so to speak, 11 which we might more commonly refer to as paper. But 12 there are various compositions that ultimately were 13 found to work in most of our machines. I guess I 14 should say work in all of our machines. 15 Q. You said that June of 1987 is when -- I'm 16 sorry. You may have to correct me. I apologize. 17 June of 1987, was that when warnings were placed? 18 A. That's when warnings were first placed on 19 service parts that contained -- those that were 20 believed to have contained asbestos, that warning was 21 placed on those service parts. 22 Q. If the focus began in 1985 to seek asbestos 23 alternatives, why didn't the warnings start in 1985, 24 sir? 25 A. Because, as I said before, Deere had no IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 75 1 information that indicated that the products that we 2 were providing to customers presented a hazard to those 3 customers. 4 Q. Okay. 5 What information in 1987 did Deere learn 6 that all of a sudden now they knew to put warnings on 7 them? 8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 9 A. Well, in addition to the accumulation of 10 knowledge, specifically OSHA began to require labeling 11 on what they defined as asbestos-containing materials. 12 Asbestos-containing materials were anything that 13 contained more than 1 percent of asbestos by weight, 14 and, therefore, a logical interpretation of that 15 regulation was that a brake facing or a clutch disc 16 should have a warning, and those warnings were placed 17 on those service parts. 18 Q. I understand that. 19 But if Deere knew that in 1985, they started 20 seeking alternatives, you said, for asbestos, so they 21 knew there was a problem with asbestos, correct? 22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 23 A. I think, in the general sense, a lot of 24 people were aware of the general hazard of asbestos, if 25 there is a significant amount of dust and that's IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 breathed by an individual. And, of course, what's Page 76 2 considered to be safe and unsafe, I guess, varies with 3 time. Deere did not believe that any of its products 4 created that kind of dust or that in the reasonable 5 service of any of its products that that kind of dust 6 was created, and, therefore, Deere did not believe that 7 its products presented a risk to customers. The reason 8 to remove asbestos was more the general knowledge and 9 the nudging from suppliers and so on. And Deere wanted 10 to be a good corporate citizen, to not be involved in 11 the asbestos business. 12 Q. Well, in 1987 Deere believed that asbestos, 13 in their brakes or clutches or friction products, posed 14 a danger, did they not? 15 A. No, I don't think - 16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 17 A. (CONTINUING) I don't think that's true at 18 all. I think consistently Deere has believed that the 19 parts used in its machines did not present an asbestos 20 hazard to users or the people servicing those products. 21 That was true then and it's true today. 22 Q. Does Deere normally put warnings on products 23 that do not pose a danger to their consumers? 24 A. In the general sense, we do not put warnings 25 on products that do not present a hazard. There are IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 77 1 some exceptions to that where there is a regulation, 2 for example, that requires a warning or there may be 3 another particular reason to provide a warning. 4 Q. Is Deere in the normal practice of letting a 5 government body dictate their safety standards? 6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 7 A. Well, the answer to your question is, 8 obviously, no. Deere does, on the other hand, if you 9 reverse the question, attempt to comply with 10 governmental regulations. It's Deere's intent to fully 11 comply with all governmental regulations. 12 Q. But Deere made the conscious decision, sir, 13 that although they were looking for asbestos 14 alternatives in 1985 because of the general knowledge 15 that asbestos was harmful, that they did not need to 16 give that warning to the consumer in 1985? 17 A. Yes. 18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 19 A. (CONTINUING) I think I've explained that 20 very clearly. There was no indication that the 21 products that Deere was selling to users and those 22 people that also serviced the John Deere equipment were 23 at any risk of an asbestos hazard through the use of 24 those products. 25 Q. Let me ask you this, sir: Is John Deere IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 78 1 aware of the Environmental Protection Agency putting 2 out a guidance for preventing asbestos disease among 3 auto mechanics? 4 A. Yes, I'm aware of that. 5 Q. But brake mechanics at Deere dealerships are 6 significantly different than auto mechanics, I take it. 7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection. 8 A. I think Mr. Hitzhusen explained that clearly 9 yesterday when he talked about the fact that there are 10 no specialized equipment -- pardon me -- specialized 11 mechanics. There is not a Midas for brakes on 12 tractors. The typical mechanic that deals with a 13 product such as an agricultural tractor spends the vast 14 majority of his time doing something other than 15 repairing brakes. 16 Q. Was Deere ever a member of the Friction 17 Material Standards Institute? 18 A. I don't know that, sir. 19 Q. Is that something that you tried to 20 investigate or - 21 A. I don't recall having tried to investigate 22 that organization, no. 23 Q. So you wouldn't be aware in 1972 that that 24 organization, in a study, said a problem existed when 25 brake linings and clutch linings, facings, were cut, IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 grooved, drilled after shipment because of high Page 79 2 concentration of airborne asbestos fibers? 3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 4 Q. (CONTINUING) Are you aware of that report? 5 A. I'm not specifically aware of that report, 6 but the things that you've highlighted as being done 7 with asbestos materials are things that Deere typically 8 would not do, did not do. It didn't groove brake 9 facings, for example. 10 Q. We will leave that for the mechanics. 11 A. And mechanics, by the way, since you bring 12 that up, would not have done that either. 13 Q. Okay. 14 But no one better than a John Deere mechanic 15 who worked on brakes to tell us what they did. Would 16 you agree with that? 17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 18 A. I don't disagree with that person telling 19 you what he did, because we have no control of what an 20 individual person does. But I can tell you about what 21 we would believe the requirements are. Deere provided 22 parts that we believed would work adequately in the 23 products that we sold without modification. 24 Q. Is John Deere aware that in 1998 the World 25 Health Organization says that repair and maintenance of IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 brakes results in high concentrations of asbestos Page 80 2 fibers? 3 A. I think we just discussed that basic issue, 4 that there is a difference between the clutches and 5 brakes that Deere was using and those that, I think, 6 would more commonly be studied by those groups which 7 would have a much higher relationship to automotive 8 uses, products that travel much faster, have different 9 wear characteristics. 10 You might also be aware that the term wet 11 clutch came up yesterday. Deere was in the process 12 since the early 1960s of making most of its clutches 13 and even brakes wet disc products. So those products 14 would not present a dust hazard. 15 Q. To your knowledge, was John -- anyone at 16 John Deere -- strike that. 17 Was John Deere -- did they take measures to 18 assure the safety of their mechanics in the 19 dealerships - 20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 21 Q. -- as it relates to airborne asbestos? 22 A. I don't know how to answer the question 23 specifically. The dealerships that you are referring 24 to are independent businesses, and Deere has no real 25 opportunity to control what the employees of that IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 81 1 business do. Deere often makes suggestions in terms of 2 how to repair something. In fact, that's the reason 3 for what we call technical manuals or service manuals, 4 so that a mechanic at a dealership has the proper 5 information on how to properly repair a component or 6 part or even the entire product that we have sold. 7 Q. Were you aware yesterday when I showed 8 Mr. Hitzhusen a John Deere manual that talked about 9 using a stiff brush to clean out the brake shoes? 10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 11 A. My recollection of that testimony was 12 that -- or, the question and the response maybe was not 13 quite as direct as I would have made it. I think the 14 reference was to removing dust -- or, pardon me, not 15 dust -- removing rust from the brake shoe, which would 16 be a common use of a wire brush. That's not 17 necessarily brushing the asbestos material itself. 18 Q. All right. We will let that document speak 19 for itself at the time of trial. 20 Let me ask you this - 21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to colloquy. 22 Q. -- you mentioned that this difference 23 that -- you can't say that what was happening with the 24 automotive brake linings are consistent with John 25 Deere, things of that nature. Is it your testimony, IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 sir, and your belief, as you sit here today, that a Page 82 2 brake lining produced by a supplier for a car and the 3 brake lining for a John Deere tractor, that the 4 chemical composition is somewhat different? 5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 6 A. I don't think that's really my testimony at 7 all. I would expect that the chemical composition of 8 those two components would be somewhat similar. What I 9 really would emphasize is the fact that the use of 10 those components is quite different on an automobile 11 than it is on a tractor, that the opportunity to 12 service an automobile through a specialized group of 13 mechanics, such as brake repair specialists, is not 14 there for tractors and is not part of the use of a John 15 Deere product. 16 Q. So it's not your position, is it, that if 17 you took, let's say, a Bendix brake lining for a car 18 and grind the new brake to make it fit, and you did the 19 same for a tractor, that the -- somehow that the 20 asbestos fibers in the air would be quantitatively 21 different? 22 MR. BAILEY: Objection to form. 23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 24 A. I don't think that I would suggest that at 25 all. What I'm suggesting is that the reason to grind IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 83 1 it would not be present with respect to the John Deere 2 product. In fact, this whole issue has two parts to 3 the equation. The first part is the asbestos content, 4 and the second part is the opportunity for someone to 5 breathe dust. And what is different about the Deere 6 products is the opportunity for a user or a repair 7 person to breathe free -- or, asbestos-containing dust. 8 Q. To your knowledge, did John Deere encourage 9 any of the dealers to use ventilation systems when it 10 came to mechanical work for the tractors? 11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 12 Overbroad. 13 A. I believe that to be true. That would be 14 true of anything that we would believe to cause a 15 potential hazard. That would be true for paint fumes 16 and any other opportunity for someone to breathe in 17 excessive concentration of something that could be 18 harmful. 19 Q. If this is repetitive, I apologize, but I 20 want to follow up regardless, because we've been 21 throwing a few dates out, so I want to make sure I 22 understand John Deere's position. 23 Can you give me a specific time frame that 24 John Deere became aware that asbestos was harmful? 25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. Same IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 objection as previously stated with qualifications. Page 84 2 A. I want to answer the question in two parts. 3 First of all, if you are talking about awareness of 4 asbestos as a material potentially causing injury to 5 someone, I think our knowledge on the records that I've 6 seen would indicate there was some knowledge which, 7 obviously, grew with time as early as the mid-1960s or 8 late 1960s. 9 If you are talking about knowledge about a 10 John Deere product causing an asbestos-related hazard 11 to an individual, user, or service technician, I would 12 submit that there has been no evidence and there is no 13 evidence today that that is a hazard. 14 Q. Have you reviewed all the studies as it 15 relates to the repair and maintenance of friction 16 products? 17 A. No, I, obviously, have not. There have been 18 a number of activities that have gone on that I 19 wouldn't be aware of. I'm most familiar with the Deere 20 products and the uses of the Deere products. 21 Q. But you don't believe there is evidence at 22 this date, in the year 2003, that a friction product in 23 a John Deere product is harmful? 24 A. In the uses that we would anticipate of the 25 machine and in the service-related activities that IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 85 1 might be associated with the John Deere product, I do 2 not believe that the asbestos-containing parts 3 presented a hazard. 4 Q. After John Deere placed warnings on 5 asbestos-containing products in June of 1987, what 6 actions did they take to inform previous consumers that 7 there could be a problem? 8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to the term 9 previous consumers. 10 A. I don't recall a specific action Deere would 11 have taken to say -- to provide that information to 12 someone who had bought brake linings ten years prior to 13 the installation of that warning. The warning, as I 14 said, was the result of several factors, but one 15 fundamental factor was the OSHA requirements to label. 16 They weren't based on Deere's analysis of 17 the risk associated with those parts, but simply on the 18 fact that a product or part could contain some asbestos 19 above the specified number that they had decided upon. 20 Deere would suggest, since no hazard has been 21 identified associated with the use of those parts, it 22 wouldn't have been necessary to go back and warn 23 previous buyers of those kinds of components. 24 Q. In fact, it would be John Deere's position 25 that the federal government's, vis-a-vis OSHA, IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 regulation was unnecessary? Page 86 2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 3 A. No. No, I don't think that's Deere's 4 position at all. I think there were specific instances 5 where that may have been a very valid warning and it 6 may have provided a real benefit to some of the 7 consumers of some kinds of asbestos-containing 8 products. The warning was simply all-inclusive, and 9 Deere felt that it was best for us to use that same 10 warning, even though our products were not believed to 11 be hazardous. 12 Q. Are you aware of any asbestos abatements 13 from any of the John Deere facilities? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. When are you -- when did you become first 16 aware that there was an abatement process? 17 A.Probably at approximately the time that it 18 began to occur. 19 Q. When was that? 20 A. I don't have a specific recollection of 21 exactly the date, but, for example, the area of the 22 building that I worked in at Dubuque was in the process 23 of having some ceiling remodeling and so, and there was 24 an abatement program to remove all of the asbestos 25 materials from the ceiling of that building. And I'm IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 guessing that that was in about 1990. Page 87 2 Q. Prior to 1990 you have no knowledge of any 3 abatement -- asbestos abatement in any other John Deere 4 facility? 5 A. It would just be my general knowledge that 6 all of the John Deere units would have complied with 7 any regulation relating to asbestos or asbestos 8 abatement. It's my general understanding, and I'm 9 certainly not an expert in this, but abatement is 10 required when asbestos-containing materials are 11 disturbed or they can be friable and be disturbed. 12 And Deere consistently protected against that and 13 consistently used abatement programs, to the best of my 14 knowledge, when that activity occurred. 15 Q. Do you have any knowledge of any research or 16 testing that John Deere engaged in prior to the first 17 time they used asbestos-containing products? 18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 19 A. No, I don't have specific information with 20 respect to the first time Deere would have used 21 asbestos-containing products. I believe, from the 22 research that I've done, that the use of some 23 asbestos-containing products goes clear back to before 24 1920. I don't -- in Deere products, I should say. 25 I don't know of any research that was done IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 88 1 at that time, but I wouldn't expect records that might 2 have been taken or kept in that time would have been 3 retained for 80 or 90 years. 4 Q. Have you ever heard the name Dr. J. J. 5 O'Halloran? 6 A. Not that I specifically recall, no. 7 Q. Through the years did John Deere remain a 8 medical director? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Through the years has John Deere been a 11 member of the Industrial Hygiene Foundation? 12 A. I don't recall the specific names, but I 13 know that Deere has employed industrial hygienists, and 14 I believe that they belong to an organization relating 15 to industrial hygienists. I don't know exactly which 16 one. 17 Q. So you wouldn't be aware of the fact that a 18 Mr. O'Halloran was provided dozens of industrial 19 hygiene digests, then, would you? 20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 21 A. I don't have any specific knowledge about 22 that, no. 23 Q. In fact, you don't even know if he was the 24 medical director at John Deere at any time, do you? 25 A. I don't remember that name, but I wouldn't IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 be able to tell you for sure if he ever was. 2 Q. Have you ever looked at any of these Page 89 3 industrial hygiene digests, sir? 4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 5 A. Not that I recall. Not with any specific 6 purpose. 7 Q. So you wouldn't be able to give knowledge 8 that any evidence located in those Industrial Hygiene 9 Foundation reports or articles showing asbestos was 10 harmful? 11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection. Foundation. 12 A. First of all, I don't think I've disputed 13 the fact that there is the possibility that asbestos -- 14 in fact, I think, verified that asbestos can be harmful 15 in certain circumstances and in certain levels of 16 concentration. My testimony is really that that's not 17 where Deere was. Deere didn't provide products that 18 caused asbestos concentrations or harmful asbestos to 19 the users and people servicing its machines. 20 Q. Is John Deere taking a position that the 21 evidence has to say this finished John Deere product, 22 friction product, is dangerous? 23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 24 A. No, I don't think Deere would say it quite 25 that way. What Deere has is, literally, millions of IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 machines in the field, hundreds of thousands of Page 90 2 tractors and hundreds of thousands of pieces of 3 construction equipment and hundreds of thousands of 4 pieces of consumer equipment. And every one of those 5 has been used by and serviced by virtually everyone - 6 except maybe the newest ones, have been serviced by 7 people over a long period of time, and there has never 8 been a link established between use or service of a 9 John Deere product and asbestos-related disease. 10 Q. Sir, do you agree with the statement that 11 John Deere owes a duty to provide a safe product to its 12 consumers? 13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 14 Calls for a legal conclusion. 15 A. I'm not sure that I want to deal at all with 16 the question of duty. What John Deere believes is that 17 we do provide a safe product to the customers. And if 18 we ever have a belief that it's not a product that 19 lives up to our expectation, then we would modify that 20 product. 21 Q. Let me ask you, if the same manufacturer of 22 an auto-made -- a car brake lining that manufactures a 23 brake lining for John Deere, if they warned and there 24 are studies showing that the car brake lining is 25 dangerous, that does not provide concern to John Deere IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 91 1 that their friction products that are similar and made 2 by the same manufacturer is reason to be concerned for 3 safety? 4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form, 5 foundation, colloquy. 6 A. My engineering logic tells me that you are 7 confusing the fact that a product may contain asbestos 8 and even, in some cases, is used differently or may be 9 abused differently, that that implies something about 10 the Deere product. I think what I just tried to 11 explain was the fact that Deere has literally millions 12 of products out there, and it's the very best test that 13 you possibly could have in terms of what happens with 14 respect to our products. And we have not found a 15 connection between our products and asbestos-related 16 disease. 17 Q. Was John Deere ever a member of the National 18 Safety Council? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Are they a member today? 21 A. I believe so. I'm not certain about that. 22 Q. Do you remember the time that they first 23 became a member of the National Safety Council? 24 A. No. 25 Q. During your -- how many years were you at IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 John Deere , again? Page 92 2 A. I started working as a summer student in 3 1964. 4 Q. So you've been there for over 30 years? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. In your 30 years, do you recall John Deere 7 being a member of the National Safety Council? 8 A. Yes, I think at least at some point I recall 9 that. 10 Q. Did you see any National Safety Council 11 magazines or articles? 12 A. I believe so. 13 MR. DEATON: Let's go off the record. 14 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the 15 record. 16 (A discussion was held off the record.) 17 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the 18 record. 19 Q. (BY MR. DEATON) Sir, I'm going to ask you, 20 in your personal capacity as an employee at John Deere, 21 did you have any conversations at any time with anyone 22 else at John Deere about the health hazards of 23 asbestos? 24 A. I think, in all of the people that I've 25 talked to, there probably was some reference to the IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 93 1 health hazards of asbestos, the background for the work 2 that I had done. Maybe -- I don't know if your 3 question is more specific than that. 4 Q. I meant while you were an employee, your 5 30-odd years. 6 A. I'm sure that there was, at some point in 7 time, a discussion of asbestos. Just the abatement 8 program would have stimulated some discussion with 9 co-workers and so on about asbestos, and some 10 familiarity with the factory and the fact that some of 11 the elements of the factory were being labeled as 12 asbestos-free and so on. 13 Q. Now, you were an employee at the time of - 14 at the time of June 9th of '87, correct? 15 A. That's correct, yes. 16 Q. Did you receive any memorandum as an 17 employee or any other documentation discussing this 18 warning label? 19 A. I think we had general information that it 20 was something that was going to be started, but I was 21 not a direct participant in that activity at the time. 22 So I don't recall any specific memorandum that had been 23 sent to me. 24 Q. You weren't in the decision-making process 25 about the warning? IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 94 1 A. I was not one of the people that made the 2 decision about the warning, no. 3 Q. Have you ever discussed the issue with any 4 of the people involved with the actual decision? 5 A. I don't recall having done that, no. 6 Q. Other than the John Spencer analysis, are 7 you aware of any test or studies done on John Deere 8 products as it relates to asbestos? 9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 10 A. From the standpoint of a specific test, no. 11 I believe I answered your question with respect to our 12 knowledge about the overall use of virtually millions 13 of John Deere machines. 14 Q. Have you reviewed the John Spencer report? 15 A. I have looked at the John Spencer report not 16 with the intent of studying every detail, but I'm 17 generally familiar with it, what it says, yes. 18 Q. And John Deere engaged Mr. Spencer for the 19 purpose of evaluating the presence of airborne asbestos 20 fibers; is that correct? 21 A. I think more specifically in the process of 22 changing the brakes and clutches on certain models of 23 John Deere tractors and what airborne dust would be 24 present in that kind of replacement operation. 25 VIDEOGRAPHER: I've got to change IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 tapes. Page 95 2 MR. DEATON: We must change the tape. 3 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the 4 record. 5 (A discussion was held off the record.) 6 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the 7 record. 8 Q. (BY MR. DEATON) Sir, I'm going to ask you, 9 from an engineering perspective, since you are an 10 engineer, when conducting a simulation for the purposes 11 of analysis and trying to simulate an event such as the 12 repair or installation of brakes that Mr. Spencer did, 13 that it's imperative that the simulation be 14 substantially similar to the actual event that is 15 trying to be recreated? 16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 17 A. I don't think I can use the word imperative. 18 A judgment would have to be made in terms of what was 19 representative. I didn't participate in the test, and 20 I think it would be better to ask Mr. Spencer about the 21 representative nature of the tests. I believe and 22 accept the tests as being representative. 23 Q. I was going to save it, but since you gave 24 your opinion that you believe it's representative, did 25 you see the video part of Mr. Girouard's testimony IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 96 1 where he described taking the John Deere brake lining 2 and grinding it on a bench grinder? Do you recall that 3 testimony? 4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 5 A. I believe that I did see that part of his 6 testimony, yes. 7 Q. Anywhere in Mr. Spencer's report on 8 simulation did he do something similar to that? 9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 10 A. I don't recall if he did anything similar 11 to that. I think what -- and this is a bit of 12 interpretation on my part. I'm not sure. But my 13 interpretation of Mr. Spencer's activity was to 14 simulate the normal removal and installation of brakes 15 and clutches. And what Mr. Girouard described was not 16 something that I would have expected a customer would 17 have to do. 18 Q. Are you aware of the different fiber count 19 when you grind a new brake lining as opposed to just 20 installing the same brake lining? 21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 22 A. I'm not specifically aware of the difference 23 infiber count between those two activities, no. 24 Q. Are you aware there are studies to show that 25 that process leads to a fiber count 120 times the IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 current level? Page 97 2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 3 MR. SANDERSON: Objection. Lack of 4 foundation. 5 A. Not having -- 6 Q. I'm asking, are you aware? 7 A. Not having seen the study, I wouldn't be 8 aware of that. It also presumes something about the 9 activity that's going on at the time. 10 Q. Earlier when I asked if John Deere had 11 communicated to their previous consumers before 12 June 1st , 1987, about the warning that was placed on, 13 you said , Well, not ten years before. What about 14 May of 1987? 15 A. I think the same answer really applies. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. With Deere's knowledge and information 18 relative to asbestos and the specific parts that we are 19 talking about, Deere did not conclude that it was 20 necessary to make that warning retroactive. 21 Q. When you visited the John Deere dealerships, 22 were the mechanics, when they performed brake or clutch 23 work -- did they wear respirators? 24 A. Not to my knowledge, no, I don't recall 25 that. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 98 1 Q. Do you know if they wore protective 2 clothing? 3 A. Not to my knowledge, no. 4 Q. Do you have any knowledge of any air testing 5 that was conducted at John Deere plants? 6 A. I have knowledge that air testing was 7 conducted. I just don't have any specific information 8 about exactly when or why that air testing was done. 9 Q. Do you know a time frame that the air 10 testing was done? 11 A. I think air testing has been done for a long 12 time relative to John Deere's air ventilation systems 13 and so on. In fact, I'm sure going back into the '70s, 14 but I don't have a specific recollection of the tests 15 or the reasons for the tests. 16 Q. John Deere employed industrial hygiene - 17 or, industrial hygienists to perform those tests, 18 didn't they? 19 A. Yes, John Deere hired or employed industrial 20 hygienists, and I believe they were responsible for 21 conducting the tests, yes, along with many other 22 activities in the industrial hygiene area. 23 Q. And they would have produced written 24 reports; isn't that fair to say? 25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 99 1 A. I don't know the answer to that question. I 2 was not involved in that activity, and I don't know if 3 they did or didn't. 4 Q. In your research and investigation to 5 prepare for this deposition, did you come across any 6 written air reports? 7 A. No, not that I recall. 8 Q. Did you specifically inquire as to whether 9 or not there were written air reports? 10 A. I don't recall making that specific inquiry, 11 no. As I said, my general knowledge was that air tests 12 were conducted in the John Deere factories that I was 13 familiar with. The specific purposes for those tests 14 were something that I have not inquired about. 15 Q. Are you aware, sir, that the first warning 16 labels on asbestos friction products appeared in 1972? 17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 18 A. I'm not specifically aware of when and 19 where that may have occurred. That's certainly a 20 possibility. And I say that with respect to parts that 21 would not be associated with John Deere products. 22 MR. DEATON: Bear with me a second, 23 please. 24 Q. (BY MR. DEATON) In reading through some of 25 the John Deere bulletins and things of that nature, it IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 100 1 stated that John Deere has been the world's leading 2 producer of agricultural equipment since 1963. Is that 3 true? 4 A. I believe that to be true, yes. 5 Q. Today they are the leader in the world? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you know what year that John Deere 8 started his company? 9 A. 1837. 10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Correct? 11 MR. DEATON: Yes. 12 Q. (BY MR. DEATON) Do you know when the first 13 reports that asbestos could be harmful to people 14 started coming out? 15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 16 A. No, I don't specifically know the answer to 17 that question. 18 Q. I think earlier you said it goes back as far 19 as 1920s . Is that correct? 20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 21 A. What I said with respect to that issue is 22 Deere's use of some products that may have contained 23 asbestos goes back that far. I did not intend to imply 24 anything about the dangers or hazards that were known 25 or not known. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 101 1 Q. The March 1994 issue of John Deere Journal 2 states, "Our products must not pose unreasonable risk 3 of injury to persons or damage to property." Does John 4 Deere stand by that statement today? 5 A. Yes. John Deere believes that its products 6 do not present an unreasonable risk to users and 7 bystanders. 8 Q. Are you aware that Deere & Company 9 established its first product safety committee back in 10 1938? 11 A. I wouldn't have been specifically aware of 12 that, but that certainly is something that I would 13 accept if the records indicate it. 14 Q. Does Deere maintain a product safety 15 department whose responsibility is to advise and 16 coordinate product safety throughout the entire 17 company? 18 A. There is a corporate product safety 19 department and then each of the John Deere operating 20 units has their own safety specialist that relate 21 specifically to the products designed or manufactured 22 at that location. 23 Q. And that same John Deere bulletin, journal, 24 I should say, of March 1984 says the company's product 25 safety program is based on a simple guideline, place IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 102 1 the highest priority in designing to eliminate hazards, 2 next on design to protect against hazards, next on 3 communicating safe operating practices to include 4 warnings, information, and training. 5 Does John Deere stand by those statements? 6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 7 A. That is the practice at Deere, yes. 8 Q. You believe, as you sit here today, that 9 John Deere has fully been consistent with that 10 practice? 11 A. What we have talked about earlier is that 12 Deere assesses the risks associated with its equipment, 13 relies to a large extent on the history of the use of 14 those pieces of equipment, and makes judgments in terms 15 of whether those products are safe for users and 16 bystanders. 17 The conclusion of Deere is consistently 18 that they are safe for users and bystanders. And if 19 information is found that they are not or Deere 20 believes that they are not, Deere initiates 21 modification programs at Deere's expense to change 22 those machines. 23 Q. Have you ever heard of Dan Broghammer? 24 A. I've probably seen that name in the 25 documents somewhere. I don't recall specifically what IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 the something may have been. Page 103 2 MR. DEATON: I wasn't going to go 3 through everything. You've got to save some things. 4 I want to have this marked, please. 5 (Brass Exhibit 2 was marked for 6 identification.) 7 Q. (BY MR. DEATON) I will hand it to you and 8 have you look at it. Take as long a time as you need. 9 Really, all I want to know is whether or not you've 10 ever read that document or you are familiar with it. 11 A. I have seen this document before, and I've 12 now had the opportunity to refresh myself a little bit 13 with respect to what it says. 14 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. 15 When was the first time you read this 16 document? 17 A. Probably a couple of months ago. 18 Q. Had you ever heard of Ralph Grotelueschen? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And did you know of him before reading this 21 document? 22 A. Yes, I did. 23 Q. How did you know Ralph? 24 A. Mr. Grotelueschen was the director of 25 environment and safety -- and I use that term a little IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 cautiously -- for the corporation. Page 104 2 Q. Now, Mr. Grotelueschen testified before 3 Congress on 16 July 1986, didn't he? 4 A. Yes, that's what that document reflects. 5 Q. And he testified for John Deere against the 6 proposed legislation as it related to the proposition 7 of going asbestos-free on products. 8 A. I think that's partially true. 9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Hold up. 10 John, I'm going to object to the 11 characterization of the document. The document speaks 12 for itself. 13 I'm also going to object to you asking 14 him about the document without letting him take a look 15 at it to verify what your characterizations are. He 16 saw the document for the first time a few months ago. 17 He just looked at it for about a minute. If you are 18 asking him questions about the document, it's only fair 19 to let the witness have the document in front of him. 20 MR. DEATON: Well, he certainly can 21 view the document as long as he wants. He didn't seem 22 to have a problem because he was about to answer. 23 Q. (BY MR. DEATON) But at any time, sir, if 24 you want to look at the document -- and you are free to 25 give -- you know, if I make a statement, as you have IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 105 1 earlier, you take an issue with the way I phrased it, 2 feel free to phrase it in the appropriate way you deem 3 fit. 4 MR. SCHWARTZ: John, the appropriate 5 way to examine a witness about a document is not to 6 show it to him and then take it away. The appropriate 7 way is to -- it's an exhibit -- is to leave it there in 8 front of him and not force him to ask you for it back. 9 So, please , give it to the witness. 10 MR. DEATON: I'm asking the witness. 11 Q. (CONTINUING) Do you want the document, sir? 12 MR. SCHWARTZ: He shouldn't have to 13 ask. 14 A. Yes, I will take the document. 15 Q. Do you need me to repeat the last question? 16 A. No, I think I understand the question. 17 And I was about to answer it, basically, in 18 two parts. First of all, your characterization, I 19 think, is incorrect of the document. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. I don't believe, in reading this in its 22 entirety, that Mr. Grotelueschen was objecting to the 23 regulation . He was not suggesting that asbestos should 24 not be phased out at all. I think the sense of this 25 document is that Mr. Grotelueschen was saying, give us IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 106 1 a little time to do this, to accomplish this result 2 because there are a number of reasons why we actually 3 may create a bigger problem instead of a smaller 4 problem by making this change too quickly. 5 Q. I agree with Attorney Schwartz. The 6 document will speak for itself. But I do want to focus 7 you in on the language there where Mr. Grotelueschen 8 testifies before Congress, and I've written the quote 9 down. It's starred, I think, on the second or third 10 page. And I will read you the quote so you know where 11 I'm talking about. 12 "The facts are that replacement of asbestos 13 materials has been a prime focus of our research and 14 development since the mid-1970s." 15 A. That's what Mr. Grotelueschen says here, 16 yes. 17 Q. That would contradict your testimony that 18 John Deere became focused around 1985, wouldn't it? 19 A. I don't know that that really is a correct 20 characterization. It says here research and 21 development since the mid-1970s. And, obviously, the 22 materials that we used in our products was beginning to 23 change. And I think I testified earlier that our 24 products, the parts are under a continuous state of 25 change. Research and development isn't necessarily IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 107 1 implementation. When I answered your question before, 2 it was relevant to the implementation of the 3 substitutes. 4 Mr. Grotelueschen, first of all, answers 5 this from a little different perspective than I have, 6 and also may well be more correct than I was in my 7 assessment, because I answered your question from the 8 standpoint of implementation, not research and 9 development. 10 Q. Okay. 11 And he was the director of safety for John 12 Deere. 13 A. I believe the director of safety and 14 environment might have been his title overall. He was 15 also concerned about environmental issues. 16 Q. If you could tell me as the corporate 17 designee for John Deere, sir, in the mid-1970s, exactly 18 what was John Deere doing to look for replacement of 19 asbestos materials? 20 A. I think probably what Deere was doing was 21 trying to advance the features or characteristics of 22 its machines by providing better clutches and better 23 brakes and better components of all kinds. I think 24 gasket materials were certainly something that was in a 25 period of change at that time. So when prototype IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 machines were built and research and development Page 108 2 products were put together, for example, many new 3 materials were often used, not only in the areas that 4 we are talking about but many other areas, as well. 5 High-strength steels might have been substituted for 6 the more ordinary steels. And so that research 7 activity has been an ongoing process for Deere. 8 Q. There is also a statement in there that says 9 the value of the parts cannot justify -- I'm sorry. 10 Strike that. 11 The volume of the parts cannot justify the 12 research and development. That sounds, to me -- and 13 you can correct me if I'm wrong -- that that comes down 14 to a money decision. 15 A. No. I think, in part, you would be correct 16 to say that it's a monetary decision, but it really 17 deals with how we would deal with this particular 18 situation. In other words, if you move too fast, we 19 would have to convert all of our parts in a very short 20 period of time. 21 What actually happened in the conversion 22 process were some of the parts that were the most 23 critical with respect to brakes and clutches and 24 heaviest machines and so on were really done as part of 25 an activity where specific testing was done and could IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 109 1 be justified. In many cases the results of those tests 2 and the things that were found from those tests were 3 carried over to some of the very low-volume machines, 4 because after a period of time and after a period of 5 testing in other products, we could rationally conclude 6 that they would also be suitable for other products 7 that were low-volume products. 8 So I think his question really is it would 9 cost a lot of money, from our standpoint, to test 10 quickly, but it certainly doesn't mean that we are 11 unwilling to do that. And it's really not a cost 12 issue. It's a matter of how we would approach the 13 problem. 14 Q. Sir, my question to you, as John Deere's 15 representative here today, is that if John Deere didn't 16 know that asbestos was harmful in their products or at 17 any other time until the mid-'80s, why was a primary 18 focus of research and development in the mid-1970s 19 looking for asbestos-free products? 20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 21 Q. (CONTINUING) If you could just explain 22 that, please. 23 A. He didn't say it was the prime focus. He 24 said it was a prime focus of research and development. 25 As I said, the materials that Deere used in all of its IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 110 1 components, including clutches, brakes, and gaskets and 2 so on, would have continuously been challenged, so to 3 speak, in terms of is there a better part available for 4 that particular application. 5 I have no dispute with what he says in this 6 particular document. That would be Mr. Grotelueschen's 7 interpretation of what activities were going on in the 8 company. His perspective at that time may have been 9 somewhat different than those of us who were involved 10 in implementing these changes which typically came at a 11 little later date. 12 Q. See, earlier, though, you said asbestos was 13 an excellent product for the heat resistance in these 14 brakes. If they didn't know it wasn't bad, why would 15 you even look for a replacement in the mid-'70s? 16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 17 A. I think you misunderstand my testimony 18 completely. What I've been trying to distinguish for 19 you is the fact that Deere had knowledge, at least 20 going back into the 1960s, that asbestos as a material 21 could be harmful to human beings. 22 What Deere didn't have was information that 23 suggested that the Deere products and the components 24 used in there would be harmful to the customers and 25 bystanders and the service technicians that would IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 111 1 relate to Deere's machines. I think that distinction 2 has been quite clear. Deere has never argued with what 3 other people have found in terms of the general hazard 4 of asbestos. 5 Q. Again, though, the question is, why look for 6 asbestos-free products in John Deere products if they 7 are not harmful, in mid-1970s? 8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection. Asked and 9 answered. 10 A. I think I've answered that question. Deere 11 had general knowledge that asbestos was becoming a 12 substance that people were concerned about, were 13 cautious about, and, therefore, a focus of the 14 development of Deere machines would naturally be to 15 eliminate that kind of componentry. 16 The fact is that there were thousands of 17 Deere machines that did include and already included 18 the asbestos-containing parts, and the implementation 19 of a changeover was really a significant issue. And 20 that's the issue that I was talking about beginning, I 21 think, in earnest in the 1980s. 22 Q. It's fair to say, although it was a primary 23 focus of research and development, there was no 24 communication to the end users that asbestos could be 25 harmful; is that fair to say? IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 112 1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 2 A. I don't think there was a specific effort to 3 communicate information about John Deere machines that 4 actually was completely unverified and remains 5 unverified today. 6 MR. DEATON: Mark this as the next 7 exhibit. 8 (Brass Exhibit 3 was marked for 9 identification.) 10 MR. DEATON: I hand the witness what 11 has been marked as Exhibit 3. 12 A. (CONTINUING) I've looked at this document, 13 yes. 14 Q. Okay, sir. 15 As far as something that just struck me, do 16 you know what the lettering at the bottom means, by the 17 way, GIR? 18 A. No, I don't know that. 19 Q. If you could show that to the camera, for 20 the jury, please. 21 A. (Witness complied.) 22 Q. In case there was a bad glare, if you could 23 read the caution text. 24 A. Well, there is some text above the caution, 25 but the caution specifically says, "Caution. Contains IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 asbestos fibers. Avoid breathing dust. Breathing Page 113 2 asbestos dust may cause serious bodily harm." 3 Q. Do you know when that particular caution was 4 placed on John Deere products? 5 A. It appears that this particular caution was 6 placed on certain components as early as late 1985. 7 John Deere Components Works manufactured axles and 8 manufactured some transmissions which would have had 9 some parts in them that contained asbestos. And so 10 this warning went on the transmissions and axles that 11 came from Component Works and could have been shipped 12 on other Deere units or actually outside purchasers of 13 those axles or transmissions. 14 MR. DEATON: I would like to mark 15 another exhibit, please. 16 (Brass Exhibit 4 was marked for 17 identification.) 18 MR. DEATON: I'm showing the witness 19 what's been marked as Exhibit 4 for the deposition. 20 Q. (BY MR. DEATON) If you could review that 21 and look at me when you are done, please. 22 If you could read what's labeled Danger, 23 then you can explain what that's for, sir. 24 A. This - 25 Q. Actually -- I'm sorry -- if you could show IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 it to the jury first. Page 114 2 A. (Witness complied.) 3 Q. I'm sorry, sir. Now if you could read. 4 A. First of all, this is a memo very similar to 5 the previous one, and it's self-explanatory in terms of 6 what's going on here is simply an update of the 7 message. And the message that you've asked me to read 8 now says, "Danger. Contains asbestos fibers. Avoid 9 creating dust. Cancer and lung disease hazard." 10 Q. Do you understand -- do you know why the 11 difference in language? 12 A. The OSHA regulations -- here it talks about 13 I-O-S-H-A, which is either Iowa or Industrial; I'm not 14 sure I know -- specified a particular language in 1987, 15 and so the update of the message, at least it would be 16 my belief, is to conform to the standard language that 17 was presented by OSHA. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. Again, this is a warning that went on 20 components that were sold to other parties outside of 21 the Deere organization. 22 Q. Fair enough. 23 MR. DEATON: Another exhibit, please. 24 (Brass Exhibit 5 was marked for 25 identification.) IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 115 1 MR. DEATON: Bear with me, sir. We are 2 coming to the end. 3 I hand the witness what's been marked 4 as Exhibit 5. 5 Q. (BY MR. DEATON) Take your time, sir, and 6 look it over. 7 Have you reviewed that document prior to 8 today's deposition? 9 A. Yes, I've seen these documents prior to 10 today. 11 Q. And just describe for the jury - - you don't 12 have to show this one unless you want to -- what that 13 document is for. 14 A. This document is simply a description of the 15 warning label that was intended to be used on parts, 16 service parts or repair parts, that had gone through 17 the John Deere Parts Distribution Center. The DY at 18 the top of this page indicates that it's a Parts 19 Distribution Center message, describes the fact that 20 these warnings were purchased in rolls and could be 21 peeled off of the paper backing and then could be stuck 22 onto a package or a part. It was simply a simplified 23 way of putting this warning label on service parts. 24 Q. Okay. 25 MR. DEATON: Next in order, please. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 116 1 (Brass Exhibit 6 was marked for 2 identification.) 3 MR. DEATON: I hand the witness what's 4 been marked as Deposition Exhibit 6. 5 Q. (BY MR. DEATON) You can familiarize 6 yourself with that. Have you seen that document 7 before, sir? 8 A. I have, yes. 9 Q. And what's that document consist of? 10 A. It is part of what at least was proposed as 11 an operating manual for what was known as a 1500 12 utility vehicle, Model 1500 utility vehicle. This is a 13 product that was at least proposed. Quite frankly, 14 I've never seen one of these products, and I'm not even 15 certain these products were ever sold. But it was in 16 the stages of development in, I think, the 1986, '87 17 era. 18 Q. Sir, if you could read the caution and the 19 paragraphs underneath it, please. 20 A. Well, actually, maybe I should include that 21 there is a section in this operator's manual that talks 22 about adjusting the brake pedal, and it talks about how 23 to make that adjustment. And then as is typical in 24 operator's manuals, it includes a caution that says, 25 "Caution. Asbestos brake linings contain asbestos IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 117 1 fibers. Breathing asbestos dust may be hazardous to 2 your health and may cause respiratory or other bodily 3 harm. Avoid creating dust. Do not remove brake drum 4 without proper protective equipment. Do not work on 5 brake linings without proper protective equipment. Do 6 not replace brake linings without proper protective 7 equipment. Do not attempt to sand, grind, chisel, 8 file, hammer, or alter brake linings in any manner 9 without protective equipment. Follow OSHA standards 10 for proper protective devices to be used when working 11 with asbestos materials." 12 Q. Do you know what time frame this was? 13 A. It was my belief that it was in the mid14 1980s. I'm not certain that that's true. 15 Q. Sir, if it was outside the normal practice 16 to grind asbestos brakes, then why would John Deere put 17 that in their warning if it's so uncommon? 18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 19 A. I don't know that I can answer specifically 20 for this manual. What John Deere's practice is, that 21 each unit that's responsible for manufacturing a 22 product is responsible for preparing an operator's 23 manual for that product with what is believed to be by 24 those people the appropriate warnings, instructions, 25 cautions, or whatever may be the case. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 118 1 This warning is, obviously, a comprehensive 2 warning that shows an abundance of caution with respect 3 to how to deal with brake linings, and simply 4 acknowledges that brake linings contain asbestos fibers 5 and then gives all the subsequent precautions. Deere 6 did adopt warnings that were something like this for 7 almost all of its products, beginning in about 1988 or 8 1989 for this very same reason, for the abundance of 9 caution, for the value it had in educating people about 10 asbestos and so on, because asbestos, by that time, had 11 become a significant concern. 12 Q. So sometimes it's a good idea to side on the 13 error of abundant caution? 14 A. And sometimes Deere has done that, yes. I 15 mean, Deere, especially in an issue that has some 16 public awareness associated with it, as part of being a 17 good corporate citizen, it probably is more likely to 18 be done in this fashion than it is for things where 19 there is no public awareness issue or it's more 20 specific to the machine. 21 Q. But if the suppliers of the asbestos22 containing parts to John Deere placed a warning, it was 23 John Deere's conscientious decision to not side on the 24 abundance of caution by keeping that warning on their 25 John Deere parts? IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 119 1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 2 A. I think there is sort of a change in the way 3 this was viewed in the mid- to late 1980s. It was 4 clear throughout that period, throughout this period, 5 throughout the current period, that Deere does not 6 believe that its products presented an asbestos-related 7 hazard to users or people servicing the equipment. 8 However, in the abundance-of-caution mode, 9 in the late 1980s, Deere adopted warnings of a fairly 10 comprehensive nature for a large number of operator's 11 manuals that it provided and a large number of 12 technical manuals or service manuals that they provided 13 just for that very reason, an abundance of caution, and 14 to assist in public awareness about the asbestos issue. 15 Q. Anything happen between 1973 and this new 16 era of abundant caution that changed the way John Deere 17 decided to place warnings? 18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 19 A. Lots of things happened in that period. I 20 can't give you all of the reasons for the change in 21 thinking or attitude about how to handle this 22 particular issue. But it's very obvious that knowledge 23 about asbestos in the general sense was accumulating 24 throughout that period. 25 And Deere certainly knew about the IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 accumulation of knowledge and made a decision to Page 120 2 approach this from a standpoint of an abundance of 3 caution even though the products themselves were not 4 believed to be hazardous and still aren't believed to 5 be hazardous, this kind of warning was added to many of 6 our manuals. 7 Q. So it's Deere's position that they learned 8 more from 1973 until the day they decided to put 9 cautions? 10 A. Obviously, Deere learned more in that period 11 of time. I think your question probably relates more 12 to the specific subject of asbestos. And it would be 13 true that Deere learned more about asbestos during that 14 period too. That's a very logical statement, 15 completely accurate. 16 The decision to put this warning in 17 operators' manuals, as best that I've been able to 18 determine from all the looking that I've done, was done 19 fundamentally from an abundance-of-caution standpoint. 20 In other words, we can assist people in identifying 21 asbestos-containing parts. We can assist people in 22 handling those parts carefully. We had no evidence 23 that they weren't doing that on Deere products. But, 24 as I said, an abundance of caution. 25 MR. DEATON: Sure. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 121 1 (Brass Exhibit 7 was marked for 2 identification.) 3 Q. (BY MR. DEATON) Handing you what has been 4 marked as Exhibit 7, sir, you can look at that document 5 and see if you have seen it before. 6 A. I have seen this memo before, yes. 7 Q. Do you need to read it to refresh your 8 recollection, sir? 9 MR. SCHWARTZ: I would like him to read 10 it. 11 Q. (CONTINUING) Sir, if you could describe to 12 the jury what that document is. 13 A. This is a document which is actually a 14 letter that would have been sent to the homes of all 15 John Deere employees. 16 Q. And if you could -- and the document will 17 speak for itself, but if you could read from the word 18 "where" where I've started until the end of that 19 paragraph, sir. If you could read that out loud. 20 A. Well, I think if I read just that statement, 21 it will be somewhat out of context. Essentially what 22 this letter does is contribute to what we just talked 23 about, the public awareness, general awareness of the 24 subject of asbestos. It reiterates something that had 25 become more widely known or largely confirmed, and that IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 122 1 is that people that work directly with asbestos, such 2 as miners, could have a heavy and prolonged exposure to 3 asbestos, and that might result in an asbestos-related 4 disease. 5 It says in this memo that Deere has taken a 6 number of precautions to prevent an asbestos hazard in 7 its factories. In its factories. And that the 8 operations have been carefully studied to assure that 9 the handling of asbestos and so on was not hazardous. 10 Then it goes on to say, "Where this has not been 11 possible, steps have been taken to control" -- the 12 removal of asbestos -- pardon me -- is the subject. 13 Then it goes on to say, "Where this has not 14 been possible, steps have been taken to control the 15 operations so as to prevent exposure through the use of 16 respirators, filtered exhaust systems, and other means 17 that are available. It is possible that some have been 18 overlooked. If so, we urge you to call them to our 19 attention." 20 Q. What date was that, sir? 21 A. That was written on the 23rd of March, 1979. 22 It's part of the accumulating knowledge and the desire 23 of Deere to inform its employees of the potential 24 hazard of asbestos and to reassure them that in the 25 Deere facilities Deere was doing an excellent job of IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 preventing that kind of exposure. Page 123 2 Q. It sounds like it. 3 Let me ask you, did they send - 4 MR. SCHWARTZ: I object. Under the 5 Rule of Optional Completeness, which I'm going to 6 invoke, you have asked him to read a specific line 7 from the document. And I'm going to ask, under the 8 invocation of that rule, for the witness to read a 9 portion of the paragraph previous to the one that you 10 had him read from, the third paragraph starting with 11 the third sentence starting with the word "we." 12 MR. DEATON: Well, this is my 13 deposition. He can read the entire thing to the jury. 14 But he paraphrased all the earlier stuff, which was 15 fine. He was free to read it. But I'm going to 16 continue to ask my question. Then when you ask 17 questions or if the witness wants to read the entire 18 document right now, he can do that, as well. 19 MR. SCHWARTZ: I'm just invoking the 20 rule. It's a well-recognized rule. And I'm allowed to 21 do it. And if you intend to use this tape at trial and 22 you don't allow me to use -- invoke the rule, I will 23 object to the tape coming in. 24 MR. DEATON: You are misunderstanding 25 me. It's Rule 106 of the Rhode Island Rules of Civil IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 124 1 Procedure. I'm sorry. Federal -- I'm in federal mode 2 because I've got a federal court hearing on Monday. 3 It's the Rule 106 of the Rhode Island Rules of 4 Evidence. I am not going to object to him reading it. 5 I just said that it's going to be after I'm done with 6 the questions. 7 MR. SCHWARTZ: He is allowed to read 8 that now under the rule. 9 MR. DEATON: I'm going to finish asking 10 him a few questions. I will tell you what we are going 11 to do. 12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Let's just have him read 13 the sentence. 14 MR. DEATON: We are going to read the 15 entire thing from beginning to end for the jury, then I 16 will ask you the follow-up questions. My intent is not 17 to take anything out of context. So feel free to read 18 the letter. 19 A. I will read the entire memo. 20 Q. Thank you. 21 A. 23 March 1979. To All Employees: Because 22 considerable public attention has been given recently 23 to health risks associated with asbestos, we feel it 24 would be helpful to bring you up to date. 25 "Medical studies of large groups of asbestos IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 125 1 insulation workers and asbestos miners, people who have 2 been exposed heavily for prolonged periods, indicate 3 that they run a greater health risk than the general 4 population. In one study, the death rate from lung 5 cancer among those heavily-exposed workers was five 6 times greater than the rate for a similar group of 7 nonasbestos workers. 8 "Without attempting to minimize the fact 9 that they do run a greater risk, it should be pointed 10 out, however, that relatively few of these workers 11 develop really serious illnesses due to the exposure. 12 For example, the death rate from lung cancer among 13 those heavily-exposed asbestos workers was 12 persons 14 out of every 1,000. These studies have been limited to 15 people who have had high exposure to asbestos. 16 "The risk faced by people with a relatively 17 small exposure to asbestos isn't really known, but we 18 can assume this group includes every one of us. We 19 have all been exposed to asbestos to some degree, 20 especially asbestos is widely used" -- "because 21 asbestos is widely used for insulation in homes, 22 schools, stores, factories, and in many consumer 23 products. 24 "It has also been used in a limited way in 25 our manufacturing operations. However, we don't IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 126 1 believe that any of our employees have had extensive 2 exposure, and certainly no one was exposed to anything 3 approaching that of the insulation workers and asbestos 4 miners in the medical studies that have been named. 5 Now that we have become aware of the risks 6 involved in asbestos, our operations have been studied 7 to identify those that involve any handling of or 8 working with asbestos. In the various asbestos 9 operations that have been examined, we have tried to 10 replace the use of asbestos with other substances. 11 Where this has not been possible, steps have been taken 12 to control the operations so as to prevent exposure 13 through use of respirators, filtered exhaust systems, 14 and other means that are available. It is possible 15 that some have been overlooked. If so, we urge you to 16 call them to our attention. 17 "One matter that has not been widely 18 publicized is the connection with asbestos that people 19 who smoke run a much greater risk of developing 20 asbestos-related problems than people who don't smoke." 21 And those words are underlined, "People who smoke run a 22 much greater risk of developing asbestos-related 23 problems than people who don't smoke." "Studies have 24 shown that a smoker runs a greater risk of developing 25 lung cancer than a person who doesn't smoke. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 127 1 "But you may not know that the studies of 2 asbestos workers shows that the greatest risk by far 3 from asbestos is people who smoke. Specifically, the 4 facts are these: People in the general population who 5 smoke run a risk seven times greater of developing lung 6 cancer than people who don't spoke. Asbestos workers 7 who smoke run a risk 14 times greater than people who 8 don't smoke. 9 "But we do not believe that any Deere people 10 have had any serious exposure to asbestos in the past. 11 If any of you feel that you have and are concerned 12 about it, we urge you to stop by the first-aid 13 department to discuss the matter. They will make 14 arrangements for the medical department to review your 15 individual case and, if necessary, arrange for tests to 16 be run." 17 This was signed by R. W. VanSant, manager, 18 who was at that time manager of the Waterloo factory. 19 But this really was a corporate letter sent out to the 20 managers of all John Deere units. 21 Q. What year was that dated, again? 22 A. The 23rd of March, 1979. 23 Q. So that would be six to seven years before 24 John Deere placed a warning on any of their products? 25 A. That would be true. And as we said earlier, IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 128 1 this message went to John Deere employees, basically 2 assured them that even in the factory setting, which 3 would be much different than the field setting where 4 our products are used, that there was not believed to 5 be any specific hazard even in the factory setting. 6 Q. You bring up an excellent point, that that 7 was sent to the employees. Let me ask you this: Do 8 you have any knowledge of John Deere sending a similar 9 letter to its customers? 10 A. No, I don't have any such knowledge, and I 11 think there is a very good reason for that. And that 12 is what we just talked about. This is an in-factory 13 setting where people were handling parts, working 14 around things in our factory on a daily basis. And 15 that's a very different situation than a customer who 16 uses the product occasionally or services the product 17 occasionally. 18 Q. You are not aware of Mr. Girouard in this 19 case getting one of these letters, are you? 20 A. No, I don't believe Mr. Girouard got this 21 letter. 22 Q. This would be another example of where John 23 Deere did not side or did not -- were not abundantly 24 cautious by sending similar letters to their consumers, 25 isn't it? IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 129 1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 2 A. I think you really beg the question of 3 whether or not there was an issue to be communicated to 4 customers relative to Deere products. It was not an 5 objective of Deere to -- not the purpose of Deere to 6 educate every customer about the issues of asbestos. 7 This letter was to assure people who were working for 8 Deere that the facilities that they were working in or 9 the jobs that they were doing were safe relative to 10 asbestos. 11 We believed at the same time that the 12 products that we sold were safe for customers and 13 service technicians, and so there was no real 14 motivation to assure those people that they were safe 15 because they already believed that they were safe, I 16 think. 17 MR. DEATON: I'm going to mark his next 18 exhibit as -- mark it 1 of 2 and 2 of 2, please. 19 (Brass Exhibits 8A and 8B were marked 20 for identification.) 21 Q. (BY MR. DEATON) Sir, I'm handing you what 22 has been marked as combined Exhibit 8. Just look that 23 over and tell me if you are familiar with that 24 document. 25 A. I am, yes. These are pages from operator's IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 manuals from what we would call the 55 Series Page 130 2 agricultural tractors. Specifically, the models were 3 4555, 4755, and 4955. Those were agricultural 4 tractors. 5 The other copy is from an operator's manual 6 for a 482C forklift which would be considered an 7 industrial product, not an agricultural product. 8 Q. Sir, if you could take the operator's manual 9 dealing with the tractors that you mentioned, if you 10 could review that material that's printed there. When 11 you are done, I'm going to ask you to show it to the 12 jury, then I will have you read it in its entirety. 13 A. I believe the segment of interest is the 14 sensor module -- 15 MR. DEATON: I'm going to have to 16 interrupt you because the reporter wasn't set up. 17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Can we go off the record 18 for just a second? 19 MR. DEATON: Sure. 20 We are going to go off the record. 21 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the 22 record. 23 (A discussion was held off the record.) 24 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the 25 record. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 131 1 A. (CONTINUING) I believe I was going to show 2 this document. This page is from the operator's manual 3 of the 45 Series agricultural tractors. It is a part 4 of the safety section from that operator's manual, 5 which includes a number of warnings, one, two, or 6 three, maybe even four on a page. This page is 7 page 05-10, and in the middle it has information about 8 asbestos. 9 Now I assume I can read this. 10 Q. Sure. Please. 11 A. It has a heading -- it has a pictorial 12 which I think you can see clearly. It is a rather 13 standardized inhalation kind of warning; in other 14 words, warning that there may be something that you 15 could breathe. 16 The text says, in large print, "Avoid 17 harmful asbestos dust," and then continues with, 18 essentially, four paragraphs, the first saying, "Avoid 19 breathing dust that may be generated when handling 20 components containing asbestos fibers. Inhaled 21 asbestos fibers may cause lung cancer." 22 Second paragraph, "Components in John Deere 23 products that may contain asbestos fibers are brake 24 pads, brake band and lining assemblies, clutch plates, 25 and some gaskets. The asbestos used in these IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 132 1 components is usually found in the resin or sealed in 2 some way. Normal handling is not hazardous as long as 3 airborne dust containing asbestos is not generated." 4 Third paragraph, "Avoid creating dust. 5 Never use compressed air for cleaning. Avoid brushing 6 or grinding of asbestos-containing materials. When 7 servicing, wear an approved respirator. A special 8 vacuum cleaner is recommended to clean asbestos. If 9 not available, wipe the asbestos-containing materials 10 with a vegetable oil or water." 11 And the final paragraph simply is a sentence 12 that says, "Keep bystanders away from the area." 13 Q. Okay. You don't need to do the next one, 14 sir, unless - 15 A. I believe the other one is, if not 16 identical, very, very much the same. 17 MR. DEATON: If you want him to, Alan, 18 he can. I think he can look at it to make sure it's 19 substantially the same. 20 I want to mark this, please. 21 (Brass Exhibit 10 was marked for 22 identification.) 23 Q. (BY MR. DEATON) I hand you what's been 24 marked as Exhibit 10. If you could just review that 25 document. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 133 1 A. Yes. This is simply a list of John Deere 2 agricultural dealers in the states of Delaware, 3 Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, and 4 Vermont. Some of these businesses are no longer in 5 existence, and I think the exit date is probably 6 specified at the very right-hand side. The ones that 7 have a 2000 or '99 designation in the right-hand column 8 are ongoing dealerships with no particular planned end 9 date. As I recall the preparation of this document, it 10 was all of the agricultural dealers in the states that 11 are identified here. 12 Q. Do you know who compiled this list? 13 A. I don't know specifically who did it, no. 14 Q. Did you review it before today? 15 A. I had seen it before today, yes. 16 Q. We were talking about gaskets, and I read a 17 whole bunch of gaskets off to you earlier in the 18 deposition. 19 And I'm just going to ask you, did you know 20 that 99 gaskets containing asbestos were identified in 21 power train applications by Deere prior to this 22 deposition? 23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Object to the form. 24 A. I didn't remember the number specifically. 25 The number doesn't really surprise me. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 134 1 Q. It doesn't surprise you that there were 99 2 asbestos-containing gaskets? 3 A. There were a whole lot of power train 4 components in the Deere system, so they would require 5 some different gaskets. 6 Q. Has John Deere ever had a worker's 7 compensation claim for asbestos-related disease? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Do you know when that was? 10 A. There were actually two. The first was 11 found in, as I recall, 1987. 12 Q. That was the first one? 13 A. Yes, that's my recollection. 14 Q. Do you know the earliest known date that 15 John Deere advised their employees to wear respiratory 16 equipment? 17 A. No, I don't specifically. There were, 18 obviously, areas of some John Deere facilities where 19 respirators were used in some of the painting areas, 20 spray painting areas, for example, some of the grinding 21 areas in the foundry. Those were areas where employees 22 specifically used respirators. 23 Q. Earlier we were talking about alternatives 24 to asbestos. And is it John Deere's position that 25 prior to the late 1980s there was not an asbestos-free IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 substitute that would have been safe in John Deere Page 135 2 products? 3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 4 Calls for speculation. 5 A. I don't think that was really my testimony. 6 What I would say on that issue is that, at that point 7 in time, having already adopted and accepted some 8 asbestos-containing parts, Deere had verified that 9 those parts worked satisfactorily. Those products, 10 components, et cetera, were believed to be safe to the 11 users and customers that we had, so the reasons to 12 investigate alternatives were not strong especially 13 where it would require retroactive testing or 14 recreation of test fixtures that had sometime before 15 been dismantled. So the reasons to conduct those kinds 16 of tests on alternate components to verify that they 17 actually lived up to our performance and safety and 18 reliability requirements simply weren't present at that 19 time. 20 Q. You mentioned Bendix earlier as one of your 21 suppliers. Are you aware that in 1934 Bendix was 22 awarded a patent for an asbestos-free brake lining 23 product? 24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 25 MR. BAILEY: Objection, form. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 136 1 A. I wasn't specifically aware of that, no. 2 And, of course, asbestos-free in the sense of not 3 knowing what the application is and what the uses of it 4 were for and not knowing that it would be verified for 5 large tractors or heavy equipment wouldn't be a 6 particularly meaningful thing. 7 Q. So it wouldn't be meaningful either that one 8 of your other suppliers, Raybestos Manhattan, held a 9 patent for Metal Power & Binder showing that asbestos 10 was not necessary? 11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 12 A. The Ben metallic brake linings, for a period 13 of time, they have particular advantages for 14 automobiles but were not tested at that time in the 15 kind of equipment that Deere manufactures. 16 Q. Were you aware, sir, that in 1957 that metal 17 and mullite, an asbestos-free brake product, was being 18 used for aircrafts in this country? 19 A. I think that's precisely my point. It's a 20 very different application. 21 Q. You are saying that the brakes on a tractor 22 need to stop quicker than an aircraft? 23 A. I'm saying that the brakes on an aircraft 24 that lands at 90 miles an hour have a very different 25 requirement than a tractor that only goes 12 miles an IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 137 1 hour. 2 Q. And so you are saying that an asbestos -free 3 product that's sufficient for an aircraft at that kind 4 of velocity, heat, and all the other issues involved 5 would not be compatible for a John Deere tractor? 6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 7 A. I don't think I would go so far as to say 8 that it could never be compatible with the John Deere 9 tractor. It was not tested at that time. It was not 10 forwarded to Deere as a reasonably economical 11 alternative to a product that had already been proven 12 successful and safe. 13 MR. DEATON: One other exhibit, please. 14 (Brass Exhibit 11 was marked for 15 identification.) 16 Q. (BY MR. DEATON) I hand you Exhibit 11 . You 17 can look at that. Do you know what that document is, 18 sir? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Had you reviewed it before you came to the 21 deposition today? 22 A. I have seen this document, yes. 23 Q. Do you know how long ago? 24 A. Sometime within the last several months. 25 Q. And if you could explain to the jury what IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 that document is. Page 138 2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 3 A. This document is a letter from a person 4 named H. Heath Thompson in the Industrial Hygiene 5 Department, and I believe that would have been the 6 Deere & Company corporate Industrial Hygiene 7 Department, to the safety director at John Deere 8 Waterloo Tractor Works. That would be the facility 9 that manufactured agricultural tractors, or the 10 majority of them at that time. 11 It refers to a newspaper article that, 12 apparently, was sent to Mr. Thompson by Mr. Waldenson 13 that talks about the effects of asbestos, makes some 14 commentary notes that the article deals with the 15 effects of asbestos and doesn't deal with the 16 environment that causes the effects, which is what the 17 Deere situation really would be. 18 It talks about the American Conference of 19 Governmental Industrial Hygienists, and they have set a 20 limit for asbestos, which is five million particles per 21 cubic foot, I think far above what today's limits are. 22 And that is based on the fact that workers could be 23 exposed to that concentration for eight hours a day, 24 day after day, and suffer no ill effects. 25 So this response, basically, is to the IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 139 1 submission of these newspaper articles and addresses 2 this specific operation at the Waterloo Tractor Works 3 did involve cutting some asbestos-containing material. 4 And then it suggests that it does not believe -- the 5 industrial hygiene people do not believe that this is a 6 health hazard, but they do communicate some things to 7 be doubly safe. 8 Q. Could you continue what was communicated? 9 A. They asked a question, in a question form, 10 whether the asbestos could be purchased precut, 11 whether -- suggested they observe the operation to 12 see if the present exhaust system is capturing the 13 contaminant, and provide respirators for exposed 14 workers, and isolate operation from other workers in 15 the area until exhaust ventilation is repaired or 16 altered to control asbestos dust. 17 It also addresses the fact that they are 18 enclosing a pamphlet on lead, which, apparently, was 19 another substance that was inquired about. 20 Q. Sir, what's the date of that document? 21 A. The 28th of August, 1967. I think it's 22 consistent with this issue of growing awareness among 23 the general population and among safety people of the 24 hazards of asbestos or asbestos dust, something that in 25 this context is very different than the product issue IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 we've been talking about. Page 140 2 Q. Is it fair to say that's 20 years before 3 John Deere put warnings on their products? 4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 5 A. From a chronology standpoint, that is 6 correct, yes. 7 MR. DEATON: Thank you, sir. That's 8 all I've got. Thank you for your time. 9 MR. BAILEY: This is Troy Bailey. I'm 10 going to have about, hopefully, five, ten minutes of 11 questions. I don't know if you want to take a short 12 break or, if other people have questions, you want to 13 take a lunch break. But I don't think I'm going to go 14 more than five, ten minutes. 15 MR. SCHWARTZ : Who do you represent, 16 Troy? 17 MR. BAILEY: Bendix, Dana, NAPA. 18 MR. SCHWARTZ : Does anybody else have 19 any questions? 20 MR. MONE: I do not. 21 MR. SCHWARTZ : Well, we are going to 22 hold you to your time limit, Troy. We've got planes to 23 catch. 24 MR. BAILEY: All right. I will do what 25 I can. I know Chick Mone is dying to get lunch. Out IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 141 1 here it's already a quarter of two. He is going to 2 fall over soon. I will go quick. 3 EXAMINATION BY MR. BAILEY: 4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Brass. My name is Troy 5 Bailey. I represent a few of the defendants in the 6 case. I will try to be brief. 7 Earlier you were asked about some vendors of 8 John Deere who may have supplied various parts for John 9 Deere's products. Specifically, you mentioned a 10 company named Bendix who was an approved supplier - 11 COURT REPORTER: Wait, wait, wait. I 12 cannot hear anything here. I've got this jackhammer 13 behind me. 14 Mr. Bailey, you are going to have to 15 speak up a little bit, okay? 16 MR. BAILEY: Okay. Is there a volume 17 on the phone in there you can turn up at all, or is 18 that as high as it goes? 19 MR. DEATON: You are fine right now. 20 COURT REPORTER: I have, "Earlier you 21 were asked about some vendors of John Deere who may 22 have supplied various parts for John Deere's products." 23 Q. (CONTINUING) Specifically, you mentioned 24 Bendix as an approved supplier of John Deere. Do you 25 recall that testimony? IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 A. Yes. Page 142 2 Q. Do you know specifically for what or which 3 products Bendix was an approved supplier? 4 A. As I sit here today, I do not believe that I 5 can recall that. There may be some information 6 available someplace in our organization, but I don't 7 recall seeing that relative to a specific part or 8 product. 9 Q. So as you sit here today, you do not know 10 whether or not Bendix supplied any asbestos-containing 11 products to John Deere? 12 MR. DEATON: I'm going to object. That 13 mischaracterizes his testimony. 14 But go ahead. You can answer. 15 A. Yes. My testimony would be that I believe 16 most assuredly that Bendix did supply some parts to 17 Deere. I believe that those parts may have contained 18 asbestos or did contain asbestos at a certain point in 19 time. I just can't tell you which parts that would be. 20 Q. Can you give me any sort of description of 21 the parts ? 22 A. I probably hesitate to do that now. I think 23 they are brake-related parts primarily, but I will use 24 caution in answering that question. 25 Q. Given your testimony, then, is it fair to IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 143 1 say that you would not know specific dates that Bendix 2 may have supplied asbestos-containing materials to John 3 Deere? 4 A. I don't know that personally today. 5 Q. Okay. 6 Is it also then fair to say that you have no 7 knowledge of whether any products that may have been 8 supplied by Bendix to John Deere would have been used 9 on the tractors identified by the plaintiff in this 10 case? 11 A. As I sit here today, I would not be able to 12 confirm that the Bendix products were used on those 13 tractors. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. I would not say that they were not, of 16 course. 17 Q. As you sit here today, are you aware of 18 other companies who may have supplied products that 19 Bendix also may have supplied to John Deere? 20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 21 Q. (CONTINUING) Do you understand that 22 question? 23 A. I think I've deciphered it, yes. 24 Other suppliers did provide parts to Deere 25 that may have contained asbestos. They may have IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 144 1 supplied, did supply in some cases, I'm sure, brake 2 components, clutch components, and gaskets that were 3 not manufactured by Bendix. 4 Q. Another company that you mentioned as an 5 approved supplier was Dana. And I believe you may have 6 said a division of Dana. 7 A. Well, I don't have complete corporate 8 knowledge of Dana, but I think Dana has a number of 9 divisions. One of them, I believe, was even Victor 10 Gaskets, which was mentioned earlier at least at one 11 point in time. So we did purchase parts from Dana or 12 one of its divisions or subsidiaries. 13 Q. Same question I have regarding Bendix as 14 related to Dana specifically. Do you recall what or 15 which products Dana may have supplied to John Deere 16 which you believe contained asbestos? 17 A. No, I don't. I have more confidence that I 18 would give you a wrong answer than a right one today. 19 I'm not saying that that information, at least in part, 20 is not available. I just don't have a recollection of 21 the specifics. 22 Q. Is it available in documents that you've 23 already produced, or is it available in documents which 24 have not yet been reviewed by plaintiffs' counsel? 25 A. Well, if it's available, it's most likely in IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 the documents that have been produced, but I can't Page 145 2 personally assure that we won't find some additional 3 documents. There is an ongoing search for documents at 4 this time. 5 MR. BAILEY: And I would ask your 6 counsel that if such documents are found, then they 7 would provide me with those documents. 8 MR. SCHWARTZ: The request is noted. 9 Q. (BY MR. BAILEY) Same question regarding - 10 you just mentioned Victor and specifically Victor 11 Gaskets. I assume that your testimony is that Victor 12 provided gaskets to John Deere. Is that correct? 13 A. I believe that to be true, yes. 14 Q. And do you believe that those gaskets may 15 have contained asbestos? 16 A. At a particular point in time, I believe 17 that that's true, yes. The gaskets -- I don't know the 18 specific example that we talked today. We found a 19 gasket that was supplied by Victor Gaskets. I can't 20 tell you whether that gasket contained asbestos or not. 21 But just my general knowledge would say that I believe 22 that some asbestos-containing gaskets were purchased 23 from Victor. 24 Q. And the specific gasket that you are 25 referring to was discussed when we were reviewing IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) 1 Exhibit 1 ? Page 146 2 A. I think that was a cylinder head gasket, was 3 it not? 4 Q. Correct. I believe it's No. GX52221A. 5 And I believe your testimony regarding 6 Exhibit 1 is that the only information regarding Victor 7 Gaskets in Exhibit 1 was that at the time that that 8 part was discontinued, Victor was the supplier of that 9 part. Is that correct? 10 A. That's the only document -- that's the only 11 piece of information that document can verify, where 12 Victor was the supplier at that time. That doesn't 13 mean that Victor wasn't the supplier throughout the 14 entire lifetime, or it may simply have been a 15 reflection of a change that was made at some point in 16 time. 17 Q. Right. 18 So as you sit here today, you cannot testify 19 regarding when Victor became the supplier of that part? 20 A. As I sit here today, I cannot. 21 Q. Are you able to testify regarding, perhaps, 22 the first -- the earliest date at which Victor supplied 23 any asbestos-containing gaskets to Deere? 24 A. I cannot do that either as I sit here today. 25 Q. Okay. IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 147 1 The question about John Deere -- genuine 2 John Deere replacement parts, is it possible for an 3 individual to replace gaskets, brakes, and clutch 4 facings that are not genuine John Deere replacement 5 parts? 6 A. Yes, that's entirely possible, and some 7 people do do that. 8 Q. Do you have any specific knowledge regarding 9 the plaintiff in this case, as to whether or not any 10 replacement parts that he may have purchased for the 11 tractors at issue in this case were genuine John Deere 12 parts? 13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection to form. 14 A. Well, you are asking for a recollection of 15 the testimony that I read from Mr. Girouard. 16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Are you asking, Troy, 17 whether he personally has firsthand knowledge of that, 18 or are you asking him what he believes based upon 19 reading Mr. Girouard's testimony or other evidence 20 produced by others in this case or photographs? 21 MR. BAILEY: Firsthand knowledge. 22 A. (CONTINUING) I don't have any firsthand 23 knowledge of where or from whom Mr. Girouard purchased 24 his parts. 25 Q. Do you have -- are you able to testify as to IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 148 1 whether there were suppliers other than Victor Gaskets 2 that supplied asbestos-containing gaskets to John 3 Deere? 4 A. I believe that there were. As a matter of 5 practice, Deere typically had more than one approved 6 supplier in the era that we are talking about. I don't 7 specifically recall who that might have been. 8 Q. Again, you don't have any individual 9 knowledge as to whether the gaskets that may have been 10 in the tractors identified by the plaintiff in this 11 case were supplied by Victor Gaskets? 12 A. As I sit here today, I do not. 13 MR. BAILEY: Thank you, sir. That's 14 all the questions I have. 15 MR. DEATON: I have one follow-up. 16 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR. DEATON: 17 Q. Sir, I believe your testimony in answering 18 my questions about suppliers and dates was that 19 although you don't remember specific dates, the 20 suppliers you mentioned, from your recollection, were 21 consistent throughout the years? 22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Objection. 23 A. I believe that I said that. The names of 24 suppliers that are typically associated with the 25 gaskets, clutch components, brake components, and so IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 149 1 on, are reasonably consistent throughout the years. 2 That doesn't mean that any one supplier supplied them, 3 that I know -- it doesn't mean that I know that any one 4 supplier supplied them on a particular date. Some of 5 those components may even be after the change to 6 asbestos-free components, and those suppliers may still 7 be a supplier of the parts. 8 MR. DEATON: That's all I've got. 9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Anybody else? Going 10 once, twice, three times. We are done. 11 VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes this 12 deposition. We are going off the record. 13 (A discussion was held off the record.) 14 MR. DEATON: I just want to put on the 15 record that although I'm sure that there is no 16 stipulation that the documents that were produced to me 17 by Deere are relevant or admissible, they are authentic 18 and, therefore, having had a conversation with Alan 19 yesterday, I did not go through foundational elements 20 of authenticity with the witness. 21 MR. SCHWARTZ: They are documents that 22 come from files of the company. I can't -- if there 23 are documents in there that were -- are from third 24 parties, I can't stipulate to those. For example, if 25 there is a letter from some third party to somebody at IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 150 1 Deere that's in those files, I can't tell you that that 2 letter is authentic because I don't even know who - 3 MR. DEATON: No, I understand that you 4 can't say that it was authentic by the person who 5 allegedly wrote it, but you -- you are saying that it's 6 authentic in the sense that it was supplied from Deere 7 to me, is what I'm saying. You are not going to 8 contest that issue. 9 Obviously, if it was received by Deere 10 in the regular course of Deere's business, then there 11 would easily be a foundational element of authenticity. 12 And that's all I'm getting at, is that when I offer 13 Deere documents at trial, you are just -- you are going 14 to say that those were supplied by Deere, and I'm 15 challenging what it says inside, I'm challenging its 16 admissibility - 17 MR. SCHWARTZ: I'm not going to 18 challenge that document doesn't come from the files of 19 the company, but preserve all other evidentiary 20 objections. 21 MR. DEATON: Absolutely. 22 (The deposition was concluded at 23 12:55 p.m. on Friday, June 6, 2003.) 24 25 IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125 RONALD BRASS (6-6-03) Page 151 1 CERTIFICATE OF SHORTHAND REPORTER 2 I, Alanna G. Jeffery, a Certified Shorthand 3 Reporter in and for the States of Iowa and Illinois, do hereby certify: 4 5 That the witness(es) in the foregoing proceedings named were present at the time and place 6 herein specified; 7 That the said proceeding was taken before me 8 as a Certified Shorthand Reporter at the said time and place and was taken down in shorthand writing; 9 10 That I am a Certified Shorthand Reporter in the States of Iowa and Illinois; that the said 11 proceeding was thereafter, under my direction, transcribed into computer-assisted transcription; and 12 that the foregoing transcript constitutes a full, true, and correct report of the proceedings which then and 13 there took place; 14 That I am a disinterested person to the said 15 action. 16 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my 17 hand this 9th day of June, 2003. 18 19 Alanna Jeffery, RMR 20 IA CSR No. 632 IL CSR No. 084-003380 (5-31-05) 21 P.O. Box 520 Bettendorf, IA 52722 22 PHONE: 309/787-8125 FAX: 563/847-7775 23 ajeffery@gmtel.net 24 *NOTE: READING AND SIGNING WAS RESERVED 25 IOWA-ILLINOIS REPORTING 309/787-8125