Document pmjyZaYyVYK930x7qberZqkr7

10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY LAW DIVISION: MIDDLESEX COUNTY 2 DOCKET NO: MID-L-3599-08 3 4 5 6 HOWARD M. BIRD, JR. and DEBORAH BIRD, husband and wife, 7 8 Plaintiff, 9 vs. 10 11 3M COMPANY, et al, 12 Defendants. 13 14 15 16 DEPOSITION 17 OF 18 CARLO F. MARTINO 19 20 21 22 BRODY DEPOSITION SERVICES 23 Certified Shorthand Reporters and Videographers 90 Woodbridge Center Drive Suite 220 24 Woodbridge, New Jersey 07095 (732) 283-5737 25 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bi, 1 Deposition Transcript of CARLO F. 2 MARTINO, and stenographic notes of the proceedings 3 in the entitled matter, as taken by and before 4 KENDRA C. SANDERS, a Certified Shorthand Reporter 5 and Registered Professional Reporter and Notary 6 Public of the State of New Jersey, held at the 7 Somerset Courtyard Marriot, 250 Davidson Avenue, 8 Somerset, New Jersey, on October 1, 2008, commencing 9 at approximately 9:00 in the forenoon. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird APPEARANCES: COHEN, PLACITELLA & ROTH, P.C. 127 Maple Avenue Red Bank, New Jersey 07710 (732) 747-9003 BY: CHRISTOPHER PLACITELLA, ESQ. Attorneys for the Plaintiff PICILLO, CARUSO, POPE, EDELL & PICINI, P.C. 60 Route 46 East Fairfield, New Jersey 07004 (973) 667-6000 BY: MARC EDELL, ESQ. Attorneys for the Defendants, CertainTeed, Union Carbide MAYER BROWN, LLP 1675 Broadway New York, New York 10019 (212) 506-2500 BY: MICHAEL OLSEN, ESQ. Attorneys for the Defendant, Union Carbide 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird APPEARANCES: MCGIVNEY & KLUGER, P.C. 23 Vreeland Street, Suite 220 Florham Park, New Jersey 07932 (973) 822-1110 BY: MICHAEL LAZARUS, ESQ. BY: LAWRENCE F. COYNE, ESQ. Attorneys for the Defendant, Hubbell Power Systems, Inc., DAP, Inc. MCGOWAN LAW OFFICES, LLC 54 Main Street Chatham, New Jersey 07928 (973) 507-9511 BY: JOHN S. MCGOWAN, ESQ. Attorneys for the Defendant, Sears Roebuck & Co.; Sears Holdings Corp. KIRKPATRICK, LOCKHART, PRESTON, GATES, ELLIS, LLP One Newark Center, 10th Floor Newark, New Jersey 07102 BY: MARK D. MARINO, ESQ. Attorneys for the Defendant, Square D Company 3 4 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 MCELROY, DEUTSCH, MULVANEY & CARPENTER, LLP 4 1300 Mt. Kemble Avenue 5 P.O. Box 2075 6 Morristown, New Jersey 07962 7 (973) 622-7711 8 BY: TARA PEHUSH, ESQ. 9 Attorneys for the Defendant, Rockwell Automations 10 as successor by merger to Allen Bradley, 11 Cutler Hammer n/k/a Eaton Electrical 12 13 WILSON, ELSER, MOSKOWITZ, 14 EDELMAN & DICKER, LLP 15 33 Washington Street, 18th Floor 16 Newark, New Jersey 07102 17 (973) 624-0800 18 BY: JOSEPH A. GALLO, ESQ. 19 Attorneys for the Defendant, Siemens Energy & 20 Automation, Inc. 21 22 23 24 25 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 INDEX 2 WITNESS PAGE 3 CARLO F. MARTINO 4 Direct examination by Mr. Placitella 9 5 Cross examination by Mr. Edell 183 6 Redirect examination by Mr. Placitella 189 7 8 9 10 INDEX TO EXHIBITS 11 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE 12 P-1 Seven-page document premarked 13 P-2 Document premarked 14 P-3 Document 38 15 P-4 Document entitled, 129 "Asbestos as a Health 16 Hazard in the United Kingdom" 17 Document dated 6/7/67 144 18 Answers to Interrogatories 151 19 Documents dated 155 20 October 4, 1989 21 Document dated November 22, 1972 22 Document dated 6/29/72 23 24 25 57 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bi 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 MARKS, O'NEILL, O'BRIEN & COURTNEY, P.C. 4 Cooper River West, Suite 300 5 6981 North Park Drive 6 Pennsauken, New Jersey 08109 7 (856) 663-4300 8 BY: PAUL SMYTH, ESQ. 9 Attorneys for the Defendants, Georgia Pacific Corp., 10 Whirlpool Corp. 11 12 HOFHEIMER, GARTLIR & GROSS, LLP 630 Fifth Avenue, 9th Floor 13 New York, New York 10036 14 (212) 944-0500 15 BY: ROBERT HOWARD, ESQ. 16 Attorneys for the Defendant, Rapid American 17 (national counsel) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 INDEX TO EXHIBITS 2 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE 3 D-1 Three-page document 53 4 D-2 Two-page document 53 5 D-3 Three-page document 53 6 (Exhibits attached.) (Exhibits 2 and 3 retained by counsel.) 7 8 INFORMATION/DOCUMENTS REQUESTED: PAGE LINE 9 51 19 10 52 19 11 56 8 12 57 25 13 66 9 14 66 20 15 119 15 16 120 9 17 125 13 18 168 15 19 169 2 20 21 22 23 24 25 68 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 CARLO F. MARTINO, 2 residing at 125 River Road, Branchburg, 3 New Jersey, is duly sworn by a Notary Public of the 4 State of New Jersey and testifies under oath as 5 follows: 6 7 DIRECT EXAMINATION 8 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 9 Q. Good morning, Mr. Martino. How are 10 you? 11 A. Good morning. Fine, thank you. 12 Q. My name is Chris Placitella. I 13 represent the plaintiff in this case. We're here 14 to take your deposition. 15 I understand you're familiar with 16 the deposition proceeding, correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. You've testified somewhere between 19 15 and 20 times on behalf of Union Carbide? 20 A. It was over 15. I don't know whether 21 it was 20 or not. 22 Q. So somewhere between 15 and 20? 23 A. Yeah, yeah. 24 Q. And you currently live in Branchburg, 25 New Jersey? 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 Yes 2 And you worked for Union Carbide from 3 1948 to 1996? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And you were associated with the 6 trade name "Bakelite" from 1948 to 1996? 7 MR. EDELL: Just to be clear, Chris, 8 I don't think he testified for Dow. 9 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. Right, I 10 understand. 11 A. What do you mean, "associated"? Knew 12 about it or -13 Q. Well, you worked for a company that 14 made Bakelite? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And you retired as anassociate 17 director for R&D; is that true? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And you wereresponsible for the 20 phenolic molding materials from 1960 to 1973 that 21 used asbestos? 22 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 23 the question. What do you mean by "responsible 24 for"? 25 MR. PLACITELLA: He can answer it. 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 A. I was group manager for the research 2 and development group that supported the business. 3 Q. And that was from '60 to '73? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And you actually managed the lab that 6 was responsible for testing Bakelite beginning in 7 1960? 8 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 9 the question; I'm not sure what you mean by 10 "testing." 11 A. Not the lab for developing new 12 products. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. Not the manufacturing laboratory. 15 Q. When you say lab involved with new 16 products, what do you mean by that? 17 A. We would make modifications to the 18 formulations to meet a customer's requirements and 19 then have them test it for whatever properties were 20 important to the customer. 21 Q. Who did that testing, was that your 22 lab or some other lab? 23 A. We had a physical testing laboratory 24 in the R&D building, but I was not responsible for 25 it. 9 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1Q 2 there? Were you familiar with what went on 3 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 4 the question. I don't know what you mean by 5 "familiar." 6 A. With regard to what services they 7 offered us. 8 Q. Did you have occasion to visit that 9 lab? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did you watch testing being done 12 concerning the various formulas that were put in 13 place for Bakelite during that period of time? 14 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 15 the question; not clear what you mean by ''testing." A. I saw what they were doing. Whether they were running a particular product of mine or not, I don't recall doing that. Q. Okay. Since 1996you've been involved in litigation for Union Carbide concerning 21 Bakelite; is that true? 22 A. Since when? 23 Q. 1996. 24 A. 1996, I wascalled byattorneys for 25 information. I wasn't actively involved in any 10 11 12 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 depositions or affidavits or anything like that. 2 Q. With attorneys involved in asbestos 3 litigation? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And you started testifying as an 6 expert witness for Union Carbide in 2001? 7 A. Yes. 8 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form 9 of the question. What do you mean by "expert 10 witness?" 11 MR. PLACITELLA: I got the answer. 12 Q. You own currently 5,000 shares of 13 Dow - 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. -- sir? And at one time did you own 16 shares of Union Carbide? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And did those shares transfer over to 19 Dow shares when the merger took place? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Now,you're aware that Union Carbide 22 was incorporated in 1917? 23 A. I don'tknow the exact date, you 24 know. You know, whatever the - 25 MR. EDELL: If you don't know, tell 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 him. 2 A. Yeah, I can't say about the exact 3 date. 4 Q. You understand that Bakelite was 5 being manufactured from the early 1900s? 6 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 7 the question. What do you mean by "Bakelite"? 8 Q. Do you know what Bakelite is, sir? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do you understand that Bakelite was 11 being manufactured since the early 1900s? 12 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 13 the question. He may have an understanding of what 14 "Bakelite" means, it may not be the same 15 understanding that you have or that somebody else 16 who hears his answer may have. 17 Q. Can you answer my question, sir? 18 A. I'm aware that phenolic resins were 19 invented during that, early 1900s and those were 20 called Bakelite. 21 Q. And that phenolic resins called 22 Bakelite eventually were manufactured by Union 23 Carbide, correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay. You're familiar that as early 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 as 1909, Bakelite consisted of 70 percent asbestos 2 filler? 3 MR. EDELL: Again, we're talking 4 about what, Bakelite? I mean we can make this easy 5 or we can do it hard. 6 MR. PLACITELLA: Or I can ask the 7 questions the way I want. 8 MR. EDELL: Yeah. 9 MR. PLACITELLA: So that's what I 10 want to do. 11 MR. EDELL: Okay. Objection to the 12 form of the question. It's not clear what you mean 13 by "Bakelite." 14 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 15 A. I don't know exactly what was being 16 done at that time. 17 Q. Do you recall testifying, sir, in 18 April of this year in the Hawaii asbestos 19 litigation? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you recall being asked whether in 22 1909 Bakelite liquid consisted of 30 percent 23 Bakelite resin and 70 percent asbestos fiber? 24 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 25 the question. 13 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 Q. Do you recall that? 2 MR. EDELL: I think he was asked a 3 question of what a document reflected, not what his 4 knowledge - 5 Q. Do you recall that, sir? 6 MR. EDELL: -- not what his knowledge 7 was. 8 A. I recall that question being asked. 9 I don't recall my answer. 10 Q. You don't recall answering a mixture 11 of 30 percent Bakelite resin to 70 percent asbestos 12 filler, sir? 13 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 14 the question. 15 A. As I recall I was told that, given 16 that information by the attorney that did the 17 deposition. I see no reason why I should know 18 that. 19 MR. EDELL: If you know it, you know 20 it. If you don't know it, you don't know it. It's 21 that simple. 22 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 23 Q. Sir, in your work at Union Carbide, 24 did you ever come into contact with asbestos? 25 A. Yes. 14 15 16 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 Q. In what way? 2 A. We used asbestos in some of our 3 formulations and I was involved in seeing some of 4 those products being made in the laboratory and the 5 power plant, and also I saw material being run in 6 manufacturing operations. 7 Q. You said that you had contact with 8 asbestos while at Union Carbide in connection with 9 the laboratory? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Can you explain what you mean by 12 that? 13 A. We modified our phenolic compounds to 14 fit any new requirements that customers might have, 15 and made samples of those products and tested them 16 prior to transferring the formulation to the 17 manufacturing department. 18 Q. Now, when you say "we," is that your 19 laboratory? 20 A. The people working for me and me, 21 yes. 22 Q. And what specifically did you do with 23 respect to asbestos in the laboratory, you 24 personally? 25 A. I didn't personally make the 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 material, the composition. I did approve the final 2 formulation before it went to the manufacturing 3 department. 4 Q. When you were doing your job in the 5 laboratory, did you have the opportunity to inhale 6 any dust from the asbestos that was being used in 7 the laboratory? 8 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 9 the question. It assumes that there was asbestos 10 being used. 11 Q. Was asbestos being used in the 12 laboratory, sir? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Did you have the opportunity to 15 inhale asbestos in connection with your job in the 16 laboratory? 17 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 18 the question. What do you mean by "opportunity"? 19 Did he or -- did he inhale it or didn't he inhale 20 it? 21 Q. Do you understand my question? 22 A. I don't know whether I was inhaling 23 it or not. 24 Q. How far away were you from where the 25 asbestos was being used in the laboratory? 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 A. At times I was right, had the drum 2 right in front of me. 3 Q. Did you ever physically touch it? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did you ever physically manipulate 6 it? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. When you touched the asbestos, 9 manipulated it, did it create any dust? 10 A. I don't recall seeing any dust. 11 Q. How often did you have the 12 opportunity to touch or manipulate asbestos in the 13 laboratory? 14 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 15 the question. What do you mean by "opportunity"? 16 How often did he? 17 Q. You can answer it. 18 A. The number of times, I can't answer. 19 I don't recall. 20 Q. Was it more than 100? Less than 100? 21 A. Over a period of 13 years, I would 22 guess, you know, I would have to guess within that 23 range. 24 Q. And how many other employees worked 25 in the lab during that period of time? 17 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 MR. EDELL: Before we forget, 2 Mr. Placitella didn't given you cautionary remarks 3 before the deposition proceeding, but I'm sure he 4 would like to remind you not to guess. 5 MR. PLACITELLA: No, I don't want to 6 remind him of anything. 7 Q. You've been in depositions how many 8 times, sir? 9 A. Over 15. 10 Q. So you know what's going on here, 11 right? This is no surprised to you? Do you need 12 any instructions from me on how, sir, to answer 13 questions? 14 A. On how to - 15 MR. EDELL: On whether you guess or 16 not. 17 Q. Sir, do you need any instructions 18 from me on what's going to happen in this 19 deposition? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, do you know 22 from 1960 to 1973 how many people worked in the 23 laboratory in the vicinity of asbestos? 24 A. It would be most ofmy group. 25 Probably a dozen. 18 19 20 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 Q. Okay. And you also indicated you had 2 the opportunity to encounter asbestos in the pilot 3 plant, correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What was a pilot plant? What's that? 6 A. That's where we made 5-pound, 7 10-pound quantities of the product that we had 8 developed. 9 Q. And where was the pilot plant 10 located? 11 A. It was in the building adjacent to 12 where we had our molding equipment and offices. 13 Q. How many people worked in the pilot 14 plant? 15 A. Usually two, sometimes three. 16 Q. What was your involvement in the 17 pilot plant? 18 A. Only to submit formulations that we 19 wanted them to make for us. 20 Q. Okay. And did you comeinto contact 21 with asbestos in the pilot plant, you personally? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. How? 24 A. That's where the drums ofasbestos 25 were that I was -- that I touched or handled. 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bi 1 Q. And over what period of time? 2 A. Probably most of the time I was in 3 the business I had occasion to. 4 Q. What do you mean by "most of the 5 time"? Can you give me a span of years? 6 A. Well, I was there from 1960 to 1973. 7 Q. So most of the time from 1960 to 8 1973, you came into contact with asbestos in the 9 pilot plant? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Were there anyprecautions inplace 12 to prevent exposure to asbestos in the pilot plant 13 while you worked there? 14 A. Ventilation primarily. Masks, 15 towards the -- that's all I recall at the time. 16 Q. During what period of time was there 17 ventilation available in the pilot plant? 18 A. All the time. 19 Q. From 1960 to 1973? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. During what period of time were there 22 masks available in the plant to prevent exposures to 23 asbestos? 24 A. All of them. 25 Q. From 1960 to 1973? 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. How did you know that the masks were 3 there to prevent exposure to asbestos? 4 A. Well, the masks were there primarily 5 to protect us from any particular material in the 6 air, not just asbestos. 7 Q. Including asbestos? 8 A. It included asbestos, but at the time 9 it was for protection against dust. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. And that was also the purpose of 12 ventilation, primarily to protect anybody against 13 anything that might be in the environment, not 14 specifically asbestos. 15 Q. Did you have anything in place in the 16 laboratory during 1960 to 1973 to prevent exposure 17 to asbestos? 18 A. We had the same thing, ventilation 19 and masks. 20 Q. Okay. And you also indicated that 21 you encountered asbestos in the manufacturing plant? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Where was that located? 24 A. That was in a separate building 25 behind -- beyond our pilot plants. It was probably 21 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 about the 200, 300 feet. The distance about 2 600 feet maybe. 3 Q. From your laboratory? 4 A. The building was about 600 feet away, 5 yes. 6 Q. What was that building called? 7 A. It was a number. Building 4. 8 Q. Building 4? 9 A. Yeah, I think so. 10 Q. And in Building 4, you had occasion 11 to go in that building? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. On how many occasions between 1960 14 and 1973? 15 A. At least once a week. 16 Q. And had you ever gone in that 17 building before 1960? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. For what reason? 20 A. I was a trainee when I first started 21 at Union Carbide and part of the training program 22 was to spend time in various departments. 23 Q. Okay. And you were a trainee from 24 1948 until what time? 25 A. Sometime in '49. 22 23 24 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 Q. '49. And after you were a trainee, 2 did you have an opportunity to go into the building 3 where the asbestos was used in manufacturing before 4 1960? 5 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 6 the question; did he or did he have the opportunity 7 to? 8 Q. Did you? 9 A. I was in the building. 10 Q. How often were you in the building 11 from 1949 and 1960 where the asbestos was used in 12 production? 13 A. As I recall, we were assigned to 14 various departments in where -- from around, 15 anywhere three, four weeks, and then you would be 16 moved to a different department. 17 Q. You're talking as a trainee? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. I'm passed the trainee part. 20 A. Okay. 21 Q. I'm saying after 1949, after you left 22 the trainee program to 1960, did you go into the 23 building where they used asbestos? 24 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 25 the question. He identified a number of many 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bi 1 buildings where they were using asbestos. 2 Q. A production building, sir. 3 A. I don't recall any. 4 Q. So then after 1949 - 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. -- until 1960 you did not go into the 7 production building that used asbestos? 8 A. I had no reason to. I can't say that 9 I never did. 10 Q. Okay. When you went into the 11 production building in 1960, did they have the same 12 precautions in place to prevent exposure to asbestos 13 as they did in the lab in the pilot plant? 14 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 15 the question. 16 MR. PLACITELLA: What's wrong with 17 the form? You're not going to give him an answer, 18 right? 19 MR. EDELL: No, I'm not. 20 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. Good. 21 MR. EDELL: Can I finish my objection 22 to the form? 23 MR. PLACITELLA: Go ahead. 24 MR. EDELL: You want the specific 25 precautions in place for asbestos only? 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 MR. PLACITELLA: That's not what I 2 asked him and that's why I didn't want you to do 3 that. It's not what I asked him. 4 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 5 Q. Did they have the same precautions in 6 place in 1960 when you went into the building where 7 they manufactured productscontaining asbestos as 8 they did in the pilot plant in the lab? 9 MR. EDELL: It's a different 10 question. I have no problem with that. 11 A. In 1960? 12 Q. Uh-huh. 13 A. The equipment was, the ventilation 14 equipment was much larger. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. And I don't know the details as to 17 how it differed from what we used in the laboratory. 18 Q. But there was ventilation in place? 19 A. Absolutely. 20 Q. And were masks being used? 21 A. They were available to those who, for 22 when they needed them. We did not, you know. We 23 did not, you know, we weren't making all asbestos 24 products. Asbestos was a part of it, but - 25 Q. Okay. 25 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 A. -- we were also making many other 2 products. 3 Q. But for people who were using 4 asbestos beginning in 1960, masks were available? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And forpeople around asbestos 7 beginning in 1960, ventilation was in place? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. When you were there as a trainee, was 10 ventilation in place for people using asbestos? 11 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 12 the question. 13 A. There wasventilation in place for, 14 as I mentioned earlier, any dust or particulate 15 matter in the air. It wasn't specifically designed 16 for asbestos. 17 Q. But itincluded asbestos? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And it was there in '48 when you were 20 there as a trainee? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And were masksavailable for people's 23 protection using asbestos in1948? 24 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 25 the question. 26 27 28 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 A. That I don't remember. 2 Q. Okay. Now, how many people worked on 3 the production side where asbestos was used from, on 4 average from 1960 to 1973? How many people at a 5 time? 6 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 7 the question. It presumes that they were a separate 8 unit, but you can answer the question. 9 A. Yeah, I don't know. 10 Q. When you worked at Union Carbide, 11 were you familiar with a man by the name of W.C. 12 Thurber? 13 A. The name is familiar. I don't recall 14 exactly what he was doing, though. 15 Q. How about a Mr. Baye? 16 A. That didn't ring a bell. 17 Q. How about a Mr. Fusaro? 18 A. Again, I -- doesn't ring a bell right 19 now. 20 Q. What about Mr. Manupella? 21 A. That's familiar. 22 Q. How is that familiar? 23 A. I remember hearing the name. I don't 24 recall what he did or where he was. 25 Q. What about Mr. Meyers? 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bi 1 A. That I don't know. 2 Q. What about Mr. M.A. Smith? 3 A. I don't know. 4 Q. What about Mr. R.F. Wolf? 5 A. I've heard the name but I'm not sure 6 you know, whether we had more than one Wolf or not. 7 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that 8 people who worked in production at Bound Brook, 9 New Jersey were given at some point in time annual 10 examinations by Union Carbide? 11 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 12 the question. At some point in time? 13 Q. Medical examinations. 14 A. I don't know what the -- what was 15 done with regard to examinations in manufacturing. 16 I only know what was done for me. 17 Q. What was done for you? 18 A. We did get annualphysicals. 19 Q. Beginning when? 20 A. I don't rememberwhether they were 21 doing that when I first started, but if they 22 weren't, it was shortly after that. 23 Q. Sometime in the 1950s? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. What was the purpose of the 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 examination to your knowledge? 2 A. It was a, something that was made 3 available to everybody in the organization in Bound 4 Brook, and we were given the opportunity for a free 5 physical, eye examinations, free glasses. There was 6 a doctor on staff that did all of that right in the 7 middle of the plant. 8 Q. Who was that? 9 A. Dr. McKinley. 10 Q. What was his first name? 11 A. I don't remember his first name. 12 Q. Was that voluntary or did everyone 13 have to get the exam? 14 A. I don't recall it being mandatory. 15 Q. All right. Did the examination include a chest X-ray? A. Yes. Q. Did you know why you were getting a chest X-ray? A. It was just part of the typical 21 examination. 22 Q. Okay. And were you given the results 23 of each exam? 24 A. Yes 25 Q. How were you given those results? 29 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 A. It was communicated to us by -- I 2 don't remember exactly how we got the results. I do 3 know that we did get the results and there was a 4 file kept in the doctor's office. 5 Q. Would you consider the people who 6 worked in the lab with you co-workers? 7 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 8 the question. We're not here for his opinions. 9 A. Would I what? 10 Q. When you were there, would you 11 consider the people in the lab with you co-workers? 12 MR. EDELL: Define "co-workers" for 13 him. 14 MR. PLACITELLA: No, thank you. 15 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 16 Q. Did you consider the people 17 co-workers? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Did you consider the people who 20 worked in the pilot plant co-workers? 21 MR. EDELL: Same objections. What do 22 you mean by "co-workers"? 23 A. Well, what -- I assume your 24 definition of "co-workers" -- so somebody that you 25 work side by side with? 30 31 32 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 Q. Yeah, that you had an affinity with 2 because they worked near you. 3 A. Yeah, well, the ones that worked in 4 my group, definitely. The ones in the pilot plant 5 we got to know well and some of them transferred 6 into my group eventually. 7 Q. Did you know people on a personal 8 level in the production plant where asbestos was 9 used? 10 A. I knew a number, yes. 11 Q. Would you then consider those people 12 co-workers? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Were you ever made aware that 15 50 percent of your co-workers who worked in the 16 production plant had some form of asbestos disease? 17 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 18 the question. What do you mean by "some form of"? 19 A. The ones I knew well, I'm not aware 20 that they had a problem, and those who are still 21 living, still don't have a problem. I didn't know 22 everybody in the department. 23 Q. You knew some people got sick from 24 asbestos who workedin production? 25 A. I don't know who they were. 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bi 1 Q. You're aware that that happened? 2 A. I saw correspondence in some of the 3 depositions that some did get asbestos -- I mean get 4 cancer, but I don't know who they were. 5 Q. Okay. And are you aware that up to 6 50 percent of the people who worked as your 7 co-workers that came into contact with asbestos got 8 some form of disease from asbestos? 9 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 10 the question. 11 A. Again, let me clarify this, 12 "co-workers." I'm defining "co-workers" as somebody 13 that I got to know personally and through the work 14 relationship. I didn't get to know all the 15 operators in the manufacturing department that well 16 or what their health conditions were. 17 Q. As a manager at Union Carbide, did 18 you care about their health - 19 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 20 the question. 21 A. I would have cared about it whether I 22 was manager or not. 23 Q. And the people that worked in the 24 production facility, were you aware that up to 25 50 percent of them had lung changes from asbestos? 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 2 the question. What do you mean by "lung changes"? 3 A. This is all new information to me. 4 Q. Are you aware that people who worked 5 in, that came into contact with asbestos at Bound 6 Brook filed workers' compensation claims? 7 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 8 the question. 9 A. I'm not aware of that. 10 Q. You're aware that some of them got 11 cancer though, correct? 12 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 13 the question to the extent that it implies it was 14 due to cancer. 15 A. Only - 16 MR. EDELL: Due to asbestos, I'm 17 sorry. 18 A. Only from some of documents I've been 19 shown. 20 Q. And that included the disease 21 mesothelioma, sir? 22 A. I don't recall whether that document 23 specifically said mesothelioma but it implied 24 cancer. 25 Q. And, sir, that was an internal 33 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 correspondence from Union Carbide? 2 A. There was an article in the newspaper 3 that gave background information on how many, the 4 percentages of people that, who had health problems 5 with regard to exposure to asbestos and some other 6 chemicals. 7 Q. What newspaper? 8 A. Either the Courier News or The 9 Star-Ledger. 10 Q. And that related specifically to 11 Union Carbide? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. When did that article appear in the 14 press approximately; do you know? 15 A. It was while I was still there. 16 Probably was in the last few years that I was there. 17 Q. Okay. Do youremember specifically 18 what the article said? 19 A. Percentages of people who had health 20 problems with regard to exposure to asbestos and 21 there was one other chemical, and how that related 22 to the average for New Jersey and how it related to 23 the average for the country. 24 Q. And what was the percentage; do you 25 remember? 34 35 36 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 A. It was certainly not 50 percent, and 2 I don't recall the exact percentage, but it was much 3 lower than 50 percent. 4 Q. And after reading that, did you ask 5 somebody at Union Carbide what the real percentage 6 was? 7 A. Well, the article was based on 8 information provided by Union Carbide. 9 Q. Do you know if it was 10 percent, 10 20 percent, 30 percent? 11 A. I think it's best to just look at the 12 article yourself. I don't remember. It was a low 13 percentage, but it was certainly down in the -- but 14 the exact percentage I don't recall. 15 It was equal, you know, as I recall, 16 it was equal to the percentage in the state and 17 lower than the percentage in the U.S. or it might 18 have been reversed but -19 Q. You mean specifically related to 20 asbestos? 21 A. As I recall, yes. 22 Q. Okay. Now, did you have the 23 opportunity to ever look at the source document from 24 Union Carbide where those numbers came from? 25 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bi 1 the question. Again, an opportunity or not - 2 MR. PLACITELLA: He said the 3 opportunity. I'm specifically asking him that 4 question. 5 MR. EDELL: Okay. 6 A. I saw a more detailed document in one 7 of my depositions but it didn't, it gave more 8 information, but I wouldn't have called it the 9 source document, you know, where all the details 10 were listed. 11 Q. Did you ever ask to see the actual 12 source document? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Did the lawyers from Union Carbide 15 ever show it to you? 16 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 17 the question; assuming there was a source document. 18 A. Other than the documents I mentioned, 19 I didn't see anything else. 20 Q. Okay. 21 MR. PLACITELLA: Would you mark this 22 as P-3, please. 23 (Document, marked Exhibit P-3 for 24 Identification.) 25 MR. EDELL: Should I show it to the 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 witness? 2 MR. PLACITELLA: Yes, please. 3 MR. EDELL: Just so the record is 4 clear, is the highlighting yours? 5 MR. PLACITELLA: I don't think it's 6 yours. 7 MR. EDELL: It didn't come with the 8 document that was produced. 9 MR. PLACITELLA: I did it this 10 morning. 11 MR. PLACITELLA: 12 Q. Have you finished reviewing the 13 document, sir? 14 A. Yes 15 Q. Have you ever seen that document 16 before? 17 A. No 18 Q. It's signed by Dr. Rose; do you see 19 that? 20 A. It's signed by H.B. Rose. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. I don't know if he's a doctor or not. 23 Q. You're correct. Do you know who 24 H.B. Rose is? 25 A. No 37 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 Q. Do you see the bottom of the first 2 page of the document? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you see where it talks aboutthe 5 50 percent of the people who worked in Bound Brook 6 were found to have lung changes from asbestos? 7 A. It says - 8 MR. EDELL: Wait, wait, wait. 9 Q. You're pointingsomething out to your 10 lawyer. What are you pointing out? 11 MR. EDELL: It says "At the present 12 time" -13 MR. PLACITELLA: Excuse me, no, no, 14 no, I'm asking him. You don't have to answer the 15 question. Thank you. I appreciate it. 16 A. No, I was going to say "At the 17 present time, about 100 of the employees have been 18 examined by a team from Massachusetts General 19 Hospital. Opportunities for examination have been 20 offered to all employees, salaried and union. The 21 results for 50 of these examinations are backed with 22 25 alleging some sort of lung changes." 23 Now, that doesn't translate to 24 50 percent of all the people in the department -25 Q. Let me ask this question. Let me -- 38 39 40 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 A. -- of those examined. 2 Q. -- ask you this question then: Out 3 of the people examined according to this document, 4 50 results came back, correct? 5 A. Right. 6 Q. And of those 50, 50 percent had lung 7 changes from asbestos; true? 8 MR. EDELL: Well, just read the 9 document. 10 A. Yeah, results for 50 of these 11 examinations are back with 25 alleging some sort of 12 lung changes relating to the occupational exposure. 13 MR. EDELL: That's different than - 14 MR. PLACITELLA: Please, I'm asking 15 him the question. Please. 16 MR. EDELL: Then be fair to the 17 witness. 18 MR. PLACITELLA: I'm being fair. 19 A. It says "four workmen's compensation 20 cases have so far been filed with three for 21 asbestosis and one more mesothelioma." 22 I don't see other than lung changes, 23 how you jump to the conclusion that they had cancer 24 at that stage. I don't know. 25 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to even 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 imply that. Okay? What I'm saying to you is of the 2 results that came back, 50 percent had lung changes 3 related to their occupational exposure; true? 4 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 5 the question. 6 Q. Is that what it says? 7 MR. EDELL: Is that what it says? 8 A. That's what it says. 9 Q. And one of the people had actually 10 filed a lawsuit alleging they had mesothelioma; 11 true? 12 MR. EDELL: One second. 13 A. I'm sorry. 14 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 15 the question. It's not what the document reflects. 16 MR. PLACITELLA: Please don't do 17 that. He can answer what the document reflects or 18 didn't reflect. 19 A. Would you repeat the question, 20 please. 21 Q. At least one of the people that were 22 part of the program had mesothelioma; can we agree 23 on that? 24 A. Part of what program? 25 Q. Examination program. 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 A. The latter employee worked one year. 2 One for mesothelioma. Now, it adds here that the 3 latter employee worked one year for J.M. in Manville 4 and 14 years in UCC. 5 MR. EDELL: Can I have the question 6 read back, please. 7 MR. OLSEN: What's the date? 8 MR. EDELL: I'm sorry, it's 1982, 9 September 30th. 10 Q. I'll withdraw the question and ask a 11 different question. Sir, at least one of the people 12 that worked in production at Union Carbide according 13 to this document developed mesothelioma; true? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Now,and you also told me before that 16 you were aware of other people that got cancer; 17 true? 18 A. I was aware that a certain percentage 19 were in that, listed in the article -20 Q. Okay. 21 A. -- and what -22 Q. I'm sorry? 23 A. -- whetherthese four in this 24 document were part of that calculation or whether 25 there were others, I don't know. 41 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 Q. Okay. When you went into the 2 building where the asbestos was being used in 3 production, did you personally put on a mask when 4 you went into that building? 5 A. Not when I went into the building, 6 no. 7 Q. What about when you were in the lab? 8 A. Only if I was going to go into an 9 area that was dusty. 10 Q. And what kind of area in the lab 11 would be dusty? 12 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 13 the question. What kind of area would be or was 14 dusty? Which question do you want? 15 MR. PLACITELLA: I want the question 16 I asked. 17 MR. EDELL: Would be dusty, 18 hypothetically? Which areas might be dusty 19 hypothetically? 20 MR. PLACITELLA: I can ask him my 21 question. 22 MR. EDELL: Sure you can. 23 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. So please 24 don't ask it for me. 25 MR. EDELL: I'm objecting to the 42 43 44 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 form. 2 MR. PLACITELLA: No, you're not 3 you're asking the question for me. I don't want you 4 to do that. You'll have your chance. 5 MR. EDELL: Thank you. 6 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 7 A. Generally the dust would be in the 8 product or if the fillers were being dumped into 9 some container and I was in the vicinity of that. 10 Q. And under those circumstances you 11 would wear a mask? 12 A. I would put one on, yes. 13 Q. What about in pilot plant, would you 14 wear a mask in the pilot plant? 15 A. Well, that's where most of the 16 dumping would have occurred. 17 Q. What about in the lab? 18 A. In the lab it was a finished product 19 and we did not have -- we had sufficient ventilation 20 so that at least during the '60s masks were 21 available. I don't recall when I went in if I 22 needed to use one. 23 Q. When you say "sufficient 24 ventilation," what do you mean by that? 25 A. It looked clean and the dust 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bi 1 looked -- the air looked clear. 2 Q. So that there was suction above the 3 areas where you -4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Could you physically see the stuff 6 getting sucked up so you knew it was working? 7 A. Yeah. You could feel the wind, air 8 moving in that direction. It wasn't that dusty that 9 you could see particles going up. 10 Q. What about when the sun came through 11 the window, could you ever see the dust then in the 12 air? 13 A. Our area didn't have windows. 14 Q. I'm sorry to hear that. 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. In light of what you know about 17 people at Union Carbide who got sick from asbestos 18 and your own encounters with asbestos air, did you 19 have any concern for your own health? 20 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 21 the question as being multiple. 22 A. I'm 81 now and I'm in good condition. 23 If there had been any problem it would have shown up 24 by now. 25 Q. Are you certain of that? 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 A. I hope I'm right. 2 Q. Do you have any concern for your 3 health given the fact that you had prior asbestos 4 exposure at Union Carbide? 5 A. Not at this stage, no. 6 Q. What there a point when you did worry 7 about it? 8 A. I've gone for annual physicals and 9 had X-rays taken and I've never had any reason to 10 feel -- there were no lung changes even detected so 11 I had no reason to be concerned. 12 Q. Now, in this case, you are designated 13 as the person with the most knowledge concerning 14 testing done by Union Carbide to determine whether 15 asbestos fibers are released upon the installation, 16 removal or repair of Bakelite sold or manufactured 17 by Union Carbide. 18 Are you aware that? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Are you the person with the most 21 knowledge? 22 A. I think I am, yes. 23 Q. Okay. And you were asked to bring 24 with you a number of documents. One was diagrams, 25 drawings or schematics showing or relating to the 45 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 use of asbestos-containing products in Bakelite 2 sold or manufactured by Union Carbide from 1968 to 3 1985. 4 Do you have documents for me, 5 Mr. Edell? 6 MR. EDELL: Yeah, sure. 7 MR. PLACITELLA: These are the ones 8 that you were supposed to provide me with a week 9 before the deposition by court order? 10 MR. EDELL: They were available well 11 before a week before the deposition. 12 MR. PLACITELLA: So you sent them to 13 me? 14 MR. EDELL: No. 15 MR. PLACITELLA: Oh, so you're 16 bringing them now for the first time? 17 MR. EDELL: No, I'm not bringing you 18 any documents. 19 MR. PLACITELLA: I see. 20 MR. EDELL: We responded advising you 21 that the documents were voluminous and they could be 22 reviewed at your convenience at the document 23 repository. 24 MR. PLACITELLA: Do youhave 25 documents, drawings, anything responsive to number 46 47 48 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 one, Mr. Edell? 2 MR. EDELL: You don't have the 3 response to the document request? 4 MR. PLACITELLA: I don't know what 5 you brought with you. 6 MR. EDELL: I didn't bring you any 7 documents. 8 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, that's what 9 was supposed to be produced today at the deposition. 10 MR. EDELL: No, no, no. 11 MR. PLACITELLA: No, you weren't 12 supposed to tell me to go look for myself. 13 MR. EDELL: We'll let the court 14 decide. 15 MR. PLACITELLA: Any documents, 16 diagrams - 17 MR. EDELL: We'll let the court 18 decide. 19 MR. PLACITELLA: I want to know if 20 you have any drawings, diagrams or schematics. Did 21 you bring any? 22 MR. EDELL: I sent your partner, I 23 assume, Ms. Placitella, a written response to the 24 request for production of documents in accordance 25 with the court rules advising her that the documents 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 were voluminous in nature, and that if she wanted 2 to see them, she was certainly given the 3 opportunity to do that. 4 She specifically said she didn't 5 want to review any of the documents and that she 6 would go forward with the deposition without 7 reviewing any of the documents that were responsive 8 or might be responsive to the subject request for 9 production of documents. 10 MR. PLACITELLA: Did you bring 11 diagrams, drawings or schematics with you today? 12 MR. EDELL: The answer is the same. 13 MR. PLACITELLA: Did you bring them? 14 MR. EDELL: The answer is the name. 15 MR. PLACITELLA: What's the answer, 16 yes or no? 17 MR. EDELL: Well, then take my 18 deposition. You're not here to take my deposition. 19 I responded in accordance with the court rules. 20 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 21 Q. All right. Mr. Martino, are you 22 aware of any diagrams, drawings or schematics 23 relating to the use of asbestos and Bakelite? 24 A. Diagrams, schematics, is this in 25 equipment that you're talking about? 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 Q. Anything. 2 A. I don't have anything like that. 3 Q. Are you aware of the existence of 4 any packaging samples or photographs relating to the 5 use of asbestos in Bakelite? 6 A. By "packages" do you mean labeling? 7 Q. Uh-huh. 8 A. I'm aware that it was done and I have 9 seen documents with the exact wording, what was put 10 on the bags, but I don't have them with me. 11 Q. When is the last time you saw those? 12 A. Probably in one of my previous 13 depositions. I don't recall whether they showed up 14 in the last one or some previous one, but it was in 15 the depositions. 16 Q. And you've seen them? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. Are youaware whether - 19 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, I'll make a 20 request for those from counsel. 21 MR. EDELL: I don't know what they 22 are. 23 MR. PLACITELLA: You'll have to find 24 out. 25 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 49 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 Q. Are you aware of any product manuals 2 relating to Bakelite sold or manufactured by Union 3 Carbide? 4 A. I have a phenolic molding material 5 product book. 6 Q. Where is that? 7 A. I have it at home. 8 Q. What's in that? 9 A. That lists, I think the date is 1973, 10 so it would list what were the products that we were 11 offering for sale. Most of the products that we 12 were offering for sale at that time. 13 Q. And is that something that you've 14 made available to Union Carbide's attorneys? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And have you produced it to them 17 before? 18 A. I think I produced it in 2001. 19 MR. PLACITELLA: I'll make a request 20 for that, please. 21 MR. EDELL: He's not going to answer 22 any more questions until I have this marked for 23 identification. These are the written responses to 24 the three requests for the production for documents, 25 that were served on plaintiff's counsel in response 50 51 52 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 to the request to produce that accompanied the three 2 deposition notices. So if you can mark them as D-1, 3 2 and 3 for identification, I would that appreciate 4 it. 5 (Documents, marked Exhibits D-1, D-2 6 and D-3 for Identification.) 7 (A discussion is held off the record.) 8 MR. EDELL: Let me just put on the 9 record, it was my impression when I saw P-3 for the 10 first time, that the document on its face might have 11 been a privileged document. I communicated with 12 co-counsel on this matter and he likewise believes 13 that it's a privileged document inadvertently 14 produced. 15 I spoke with Mr. Placitella off the 16 record. He says that the subject of, perhaps this 17 document and its denomination as being privileged or 18 not or designation of being privileged or not 19 previously arose, but we're going to clarify that if 20 it was and whatever that resolution was, we'll stand 21 by that. If it wasn't then we'll deal with the 22 now-asserted privilege in that it was inadvertently 23 produced. 24 MR. PLACITELLA: The basis for the 25 assertion is what? 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 MR. EDELL: Excuse me? 2 MR. PLACITELLA: The basis for the 3 assertion of privilege is what? 4 MR. EDELL: That this document was 5 made in or related to the defense of a litigation 6 matter at the behest of counsel and therefore is 7 privileged. 8 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. 9 UNKNOWN ATTORNEY: Mark, I was outside. 10 Is there a date on the document? 11 MR. EDELL: September 30, 1987. 12 UNKNOWN ATTORNEY: Okay. 13 MR. PLACITELLA: I'll note for the 14 record that it discusses a number of law firms and 15 lawyers and I'm not mentioned and I take offense. 16 MR. EDELL: Well, you weren't in the 17 big time then, Chris. Now you're in the big time. 18 MR. PLACITELLA: Still I am not. 19 Q. Okay. Are you aware of any warning 20 labels or cautionary instructions relating to the 21 use of asbestos-containing products in Bakelite - 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. -- you sold? And what are you aware 24 of? Have you seen such things recently? 25 A. I've seen documents, correspondence 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 with regard to that. 2 Q. And what in what context, sir? 3 A. At the time the decision was made to 4 put the label on, the correspondence that led to 5 that and with the implementation of that program, 6 there was a number of different letters that were in 7 the depository. 8 Q. Have you seen those documents in 9 connection with your work as an expert witness for 10 Union Carbide? 11 MR. EDELL: I'm going to object to 12 the form of the question in terms of your use the 13 description of "expert witness." He's been 14 designated as a corporate representative, not an 15 expert witness. 16 MR. PLACITELLA: We'll he's testified 17 as an expert witness according to his sworn 18 testimony of April of this year from - 19 MR. EDELL: Well, I'm not aware of 20 that, and neither is my co-counsel, but the 21 witness's testimony is what it is. Maybe he 22 misunderstood the question at the time. 23 Q. You can answer my question now. Are 24 you aware of documents relating to, warning labels 25 or cautionary instructions with respect to Bakelite 53 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 in connection with your work as an expert witness? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And when isthe last time that you 4 saw those documents? 5 A. It would be in previous depositions. 6 Whether they were in the last one or not, I don't 7 recall. 8 MR. PLACITELLA: I'll make a request 9 for all those documents. 10 Q. You've also been designated as the 11 person with the most knowledge concerning the use of 12 asbestos-containing products in Bakelite sold or 13 manufactured by Union Carbide. 14 Are you that person? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. And are you aware of any 17 documents relating to testing done by Union Carbide 18 or on its behalf to determine whether asbestos 19 fibers are released upon the installation or removal 20 of Bakelite products? 21 A. Installation or removal or - 22 Q. Repair. 23 MR. EDELL: Why don't you read the 24 question so he has it in mind. 25 (Record read.) 54 55 56 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 MR. EDELL: Thank you. 2 A. I'm not aware of any. 3 Q. Are you aware of any documents 4 concerning the ability of asbestos fiber to be 5 released during the manufacture of Bakelite 6 products? 7 A. By what do you mean by - 8 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 9 the question. I don't know what you mean by 10 "manufacture of Bakelite products." 11 Q. You can answer it. 12 A. Is this, are you referring to 13 manufacture of the actual molding material -14 Q. Yes, sir. 15 A. -- or the fabrication? 16 Q. The manufacture of the molding 17 material, sir. 18 A. Yes, there are somedocuments. 19 Q. What documents? 20 A. The documents thatI've seen, again, 21 in previous depositions show the asbestos fiber 22 count, various points in our plant and those were 23 done periodically. 24 Q. Okay. 25 MR. PLACITELLA: I'll make a request 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bi 1 for those documents. 2 Q. Are you aware of any reports 3 submitted to any federal agency concerning Bakelite, 4 asbestos-containing Bakelite? How about we limit 5 it to that. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What reports? 8 A. This was their -- I don't recall the 9 name of the agency, but there was a submission, a 10 document where information was submitted as to what 11 products we made that contained asbestos. 12 Q. That was the EPA document? 13 A. I think that's the one. 14 Q. Okay. Now, I think we had some 15 confusion here. I was under the impression that you 16 were the person with the most knowledge concerning 17 Union Carbide's historical knowledge of the dangers 18 of asbestos. 19 I understand from Mr. Edell you're not 20 that person; is that true? 21 A. No, I'm not. 22 Q. You only know what was told to you? 23 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 24 the question. 25 A. What do you mean by -- 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 Q. In other words, you haven't conducted 2 an exhaustive review of all the information in Union 3 Carbide's possession concerning the historical 4 knowledge of the dangers of the asbestos, correct? 5 A. No, I've not. 6 Q. You only know what Union Carbide told 7 you about the dangers of asbestos in the context of 8 your employment? 9 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 10 the question. 11 A. Not exactly what I was told, I was 12 very involved in the program to remove asbestos from 13 our products. In fact, I was in charge of that 14 program, so it wasn't just -- I wasn't being told, I 15 was actually involved. 16 Q. Okay. But in order to be involved 17 you had to be told? 18 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 19 the question. 20 A. Well, at that point we decided that 21 there was a problem and had to do something about 22 it. 23 Q. And we'll get to that. Are you aware 24 of any documents concerning UnionCarbide's 25 historical knowledge of the dangers of asbestos? 57 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 2 the question. What do you mean by "historical 3 knowledge"? 4 Q. You can answer it. 5 A. Other than the EPA document, I don't 6 recall any. 7 Q. Have you ever been shown documents 8 showing when Union Carbide was aware of the dangers 9 of asbestos prior to 1974? 10 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 11 the question. When you say "the dangers of," are 12 you referring to all the dangers or any of the 13 dangers? 14 Q. You can answer it. 15 A. The OSHA documents I've looked at 16 which described the test that is used to measure the 17 asbestos fiber content, and I believe -- and when 18 we started this asbestos-removal program, I also 19 looked at documents put out by OSHA with regard to 20 the asbestos problem. 21 When I first started testifying as 22 an expert witness, there were no documents available 23 so I did research at the Rutgers library to refresh 24 my memory as to what was happening. It was a 25 40-year period. 58 59 60 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 Q. When you say "there were no documents 2 available," what do you mean by that? 3 A. At the time that I started, there 4 were -- the only thing I had was a phenolic molding 5 material product book that I just told you about, 6 1973. 7 There were none of these documents 8 that I'm being shown available, and I was told by 9 the attorney at the time that he didn't know where 10 they were either. They showed up subsequently 11 around 2001, but the attorney I was dealing with at 12 that time was a different law firm, not Mayer Brown. 13 Q. Who was that? 14 A. I would have to look at my 15 correspondence. I don't remember the name of the 16 firm. Maybe later today I'll remember the name of 17 the lawyer, if it comes to me. 18 Q. So you specifically asked for 19 documents that Union Carbide had about the dangers 20 of asbestos and you were told none was available? 21 A. Not the dangers of asbestos, just 22 what I was looking for were primarily formulation 23 sheets on our products and how much asbestos we had 24 in the products that contained asbestos, plus 25 anything that could refresh my memory as to the 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 sequence of events we went through. 2 Q. Okay. Were you shown any internal 3 correspondence related to what Union Carbide knew 4 about the dangers of asbestos during the time that 5 Union Carbide manufactured phenolic molding 6 compounds containing asbestos? 7 A. Shown, since I became an expert 8 witness? 9 Q. At any point. 10 MR. EDELL: I don't think that was 11 the question. Would you read back the question. 12 A. Well -13 Q. Do you understand what I'm asking 14 for, sir? 15 MR. EDELL: Well, I don't, so read 16 the question back. 17 A. Why don't we start over. 18 Q. Okay. We'll start over. Were you 19 ever shown internal correspondence of Union Carbide 20 relating to what it knew about the dangers of 21 asbestos during the time that asbestos-containing 22 products were manufactured in Bound Brook? 23 A. I don't recall of any. 24 Q. Did you ever ask? 25 A. I think during the -- at the time we 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 got involved in removing it, that wasn't essential 2 to what I had to do so I don't recall asking for 3 it. 4 Q. Okay. During what period of time to 5 your knowledge did phenolic molding compounds 6 manufactured at Bound Brook contain asbestos? 7 A. During the period of time that I have 8 covered, even prior to when I started in 1960 in the 9 area, we made, always made some products that 10 contained asbestos, and most did not contain 11 asbestos. The percentage varied over the period of 12 time. 13 Q. Do you remember what my question was? 14 A. I don't think I can repeat it to you. 15 You better repeat it again. 16 Q. During what period of time, what span 17 of years did Union Carbide manufacture products that 18 contained asbestos in Bound Brook? 19 A. Based on what I have covered, 20 probably there were some products containing 21 asbestos made from during -- from 1948 until we went 22 out of the business. 23 Q. And when was that? 24 A. 1974. 25 Q. Okay.And -- 61 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 A. Let me qualify that: We completed 2 our asbestos-removal program -- well, I'll let it 3 stand the way it was. 4 Q. Okay. What was the purpose of 5 asbestos in the phenolic molding compound 6 manufactured by -- in Bound Brook by Union Carbide? 7 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 8 the question. You're referring to a particular 9 formulation or -10 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 11 Q. Well, was there more than one 12 purpose, sir? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. What were the purposes? 15 A. The primary reason was to improve the 16 heat resistance of the product. 17 Q. What were the other purposes? 18 A. The arc resistance of the product was 19 also improved enough to meet their requirements of 20 some applications, but there were other ways of 21 getting there with other products. 22 Q. Now, you say "arc resistance." What 23 do you mean by that? 24 A. That's the time it takes for a carbon 25 pass to form between two electrodes on the surface 62 63 64 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 of a molded part. The current won't go from one 2 electrode to the another over the time it takes for 3 that path to form is measured and the, it's a 4 measure of how long the material will hold up under 5 moldage differences. 6 Q. When you say "how long the material 7 will hold up," what do you mean by that? 8 A. Be useful. In other words, it will 9 act as an insulator, electrical insulator. 10 Q. What do you understand -- do you know 11 what an arc shield is? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What's an arc shield? 14 A. It's a deviceor laminate that's 15 placed around where two electrodes, where a contact 16 is made between -- like a switch, and where an arc 17 is formed when that switch comes together or opens 18 up, and that's a way of diverting the heat and the 19 gases that are formed around the switch away from 20 the switch area. 21 Q. All right. If I'm looking at a 22 switch, what does an arc shield look like? 23 A. In some cases it's like a chute. 24 It's hard for me to describe. There's some pictures 25 available I know, that I saw those about a year 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 ago. I don't recall the exact details. 2 Q. When you say pictures available a 3 year ago, what do you mean? 4 A. I was able to download pictures of 5 arc shields on the Internet. 6 Q. And what did you do with those? 7 A. Those I think were put into one of 8 the depositions that I was on. 9 MR. PLACITELLA: I'll make a request 10 for those. 11 Q. By the way, am I correct that you 12 have like three boxes of materials related to 13 Bakelite that you keep? 14 A. Those boxes are primarilyaffidavits 15 some of the depositions, articles that I picked out 16 when I was doing research at Rutgers library. 17 That's about it. 18 Q. Where are those boxes? 19 A. At home. 20 MR. PLACITELLA: I'll make a request 21 for those boxes, please. 22 MR. EDELL: When you say I'll make a 23 request - 24 MR. PLACITELLA: I'm requesting them 25 right now. 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 MR. EDELL: If you make an 2 appropriate written request, I'll address it 3 appropriately. 4 MR. PLACITELLA: I'm making the 5 request now and I'll follow it up. 6 MR. EDELL: I'm just telling you now, 7 I'm not going to review this transcript to try to 8 discern exactly what you mean. 9 MR. PLACITELLA: Would you mark 10 everywhere I make a request and put it in the front 11 of the transcript. 12 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 13 Q. Where are arc shields used? By the 14 way, let me ask you this question: Are you aware 15 that asbestos-containing Bakelite was used in arc 16 shields? 17 A. When I did the deposition and got the 18 information, it was not asbestos -- first of all, it 19 was a laminate that was used, it was not a molded 20 part, and it was a melamine glass laminate, it was 21 not a phenolic composition. 22 Q. All right. 23 A. The other product that was used as 24 an arc shield was fish paper which is a cellulosic 25 sheet. 65 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 Q. My question is are you aware whether 2 asbestos-containing Bakelite was ever used in arc 3 shields? 4 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 5 the question. 6 A. If it had been used prior to the time 7 I did this work, I was not aware of it. 8 Q. All right. So my question is, are 9 you aware as to whether asbestos-containing Bakelite 10 was ever used in arc shields? 11 A. I'm not. 12 Q. Okay. This has been marked P-2 for 13 identification. The highlighting is mine. While 14 your lawyer is looking at that question, I have a 15 couple of - 16 MR. EDELL: I can't do two things at 17 once. Okay? I'm getting too old. 18 MR. PLACITELLA: You've never seen 19 that before? 20 MR. EDELL: No. Yes, I've never seen 21 this before. 22 MR. PLACITELLA: You're going to 23 learn a lot of things today. 24 MR. EDELL: I certainly am. I wasn't 25 supposed to be here. We thought we had another 66 67 68 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 agreement but - 2 MR. PLACITELLA: Never had an 3 agreement. 4 MR. EDELL: I understand that now to 5 be the case. Well, I don't know why this was 6 prepared, but it certainly could have been prepared 7 at the request of counsel and in defense of 8 litigation - 9 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. 10 MR. EDELL: -- but I don't know. 11 MR. PLACITELLA: Can you show it to 12 the witness, please? 13 MR. EDELL: I'll going to show it to 14 my co-counsel if you'll allow me. My intuition 15 seems to be pretty good. My co-counsel has 16 indicated this has been and is the subject of 17 discussion in another jurisdiction as having been a 18 privileged document, erroneously produced or 19 inadvertently produced, I don't know which. 20 MR. PLACITELLA: Seems like there's a 21 lot of that going on, isn't there? 22 MR. EDELL: I wasn't involved so I 23 couldn't tell you. 24 MR. PLACITELLA: Would you show it to 25 the witness, please. 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bi 1 MR. EDELL: I certainly can. 2 MR. PLACITELLA: Thank you. 3 Q. Mr. Martino, you have in front of you 4 P-2. Have you ever seen that document before 5 without my highlighting? 6 A. Excuse me? 7 Q. Without my highlighting. 8 A. You know, I've seen so many documents 9 that I want to make sure I know what I'm talking 10 about. 11 MR. EDELL: You can never be too 12 careful. 13 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 14 MR. EDELL: Chris, at some junction 15 did this have a production Bates stamp number on it 16 because it doesn't -17 MR. PLACITELLA: No, someone left it 18 in a brown paper envelope on my - 19 MR. EDELL: You're not going to 20 people's offices and - 21 MR. PLACITELLA: -- on my front step. 22 23 A. I don't recall seeing this document. 24 Q. Okay. I have in front of me a 25 document entitled, "History of Bakelite." On the 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 top right it says "business, confidential," so I 2 guess I wasn't supposed to see it? 3 A. No, it's -- I'm sorry. 4 MR. EDELL: Do you know? 5 A. We marked "business confidential," 6 any correspondence that we felt should be kept 7 internally. 8 Q. Why is that? 9 A. Usually it was correspondence that 10 would tell about our business, about our 11 formulations that we didn't want broadly 12 disseminated, particularly given to our customers -13 Q. Okay. 14 A. -- or our competitors. 15 Q. Okay. The first sentence of the 16 document states, "Bakelite is a phenolic molding 17 compound which Union Carbide marketed from 1939 to 18 1975." 19 Is that an accurate statement? 20 A. And who is it, Union Carbide? 21 Q. Yes, sir. 22 A. Yes, that's -- based on my 23 recollection, that's correct. 24 Q. Says, "The product was manufactured 25 in Bound Brook, New Jersey and was marketed through 69 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 distributors to electrical and electronic parts and 2 product manufacturers for molding into such items as 3 switches, switch boxes, radios and plug-in 4 receptacles." 5 Is that an accurate statement? 6 A. The ''marketed through distributors" 7 is something not, you know, I'm not aware that we 8 did market through distributors. We had a sales 9 organization. 10 Q. Was it marketed for items such as 11 switches, switch boxes, radio and plug-in 12 receptacles? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. It says "Although Bakelite contained 15 asbestos, the fibers are encapsulated by resin and 16 therefore not sold in a respirable form." 17 Is that accurate? 18 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 19 the question. I'm not going to make any statements, 20 I'm going to objection to the form of the question. 21 There's a variety of Bakelite products. 22 MR. PLACITELLA: I'm reading from 23 your "business confidential" document. 24 MR. EDELL: And it may be accurate in 25 part. 70 71 72 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 Q. So is that an accurate statement? 2 A. That was what we believed up to - 3 that's what we believed up until about 1973. 4 Q. And then what happened in 1973 to 5 change your belief? 6 A. It might have been the end of '72, 7 I'm not that sure. The dates are in the records. 8 MR. EDELL: We need to go off the 9 record right now. 10 MR. PLACITELLA: This is in the 11 middle of a question. I don't want - 12 MR. EDELL: No, no, no, I'm not going 13 to say anything to the witness. It has to do 14 specifically with the document. You want to stay on 15 the record? 16 MR. PLACITELLA: I just want the rest 17 of my answer before you say anything. Anything, 18 please. Could you read his statement to the 19 point -- what happened in 1973 -20 Q. Mr. Martino, what happened in 1972 21 that changed - 22 MR. EDELL: Don't answer any 23 questions right now. You want something read back? 24 Q. What happened in 1972 that changed 25 your belief that fiber were encapsulated by resin 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 and therefore not in respirable form? 2 MR. EDELL: So this is definitely a 3 privileged document that was inadvertently produced 4 or obtained inappropriately, I don't know which. 5 Our court rules provide that when such a 6 certification is made by a party, that the party who 7 has that privileged document, which was 8 inadvertently or inappropriately produced, is to 9 either destroy it or segregate it until the 10 assertion is decided by a court, and I'm not going 11 to let the witness answer any more questions and it 12 would be inappropriate for you to read any further 13 from the document. 14 MR. PLACITELLA: First of all, I'm 15 not destroying it; second of all, I'm not giving it 16 back to you, and third of all, I can ask him any 17 questions I want to ask him. 18 MR. EDELL: Not regarding that 19 document. 20 Q. In 1972, did you change your opinion 21 as to whether phenolic molding compounds that you 22 were selling were capable of being inhaled, the 23 asbestos in the phenolic molding compounds? 24 A. That's when we decided to label our 25 bags. That's why I brought it up, so it's a 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 question of how you interpret that. 2 Q. Well, did your opinion change? 3 A. We were -- I'm not aware of any tests 4 that were run to determine -- well, I take that 5 back. 6 We didn't run any tests to determine 7 whether any fibers that might be released by pouring 8 a bag of material into a drum were actually coated 9 with asbestos and whether they were, the product was 10 carcinogenic. 11 We were thinking of doing it, you 12 know, you know, we didn't run tests to determine 13 whether the coated, the fiber which we thought would 14 be coated with asbestos was carcinogenic. We did 15 consider it at that time. 16 Q. Why didn't you run any tests? 17 A. Because we made the decision to take 18 asbestos out altogether and focus on that as rapidly 19 as possible. 20 Q. Why is that? 21 A. Because of the possibility it would 22 take time to come up with that answer, much time and 23 we didn't have enough time to do it. We decided to 24 put plain words on the bags. 25 Q. So no tests were ever run? 73 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 A. To determine the fibers that were 2 released on some of our products was asbestos and 3 not cellulosic and whether if it was asbestos, it 4 was coated with phenolic resin. 5 Q. Well, didn't you want to know whether 6 all the customers that you sold it to before 1972 7 might be at risk because of the product? 8 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 9 the question. 10 A. We felt the best thing to do at that 11 time was to remove asbestos so that there would be 12 no further exposure to it if it was - 13 Q. Did you go back and tell any of the 14 customers that you sold the product before 1972 that 15 they had a potential risk for cancer as a result of 16 using that product? 17 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 18 the question. 19 A. I didn't and I don't know what the 20 sales department told them. 21 Q. So you made a business decision to 22 remove asbestos at thatpoint in time from the 23 product? 24 A. Well, the decision to remove asbestos 25 started in '70, 1970. 74 75 76 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 Q. Why is that? 2 A. We were consolidating all our 3 asbestos on one production line and wanted to make 4 our plant facilities as safe as possible by putting 5 it on one line and using bulk-handling facilities 6 for the raw asbestos that came in, and to do that 7 we had to start eliminating some of the asbestos 8 products to get the volume down to fit the line. 9 Subsequently we decided that after - 10 that the removal of the asbestos entirely, it should 11 be the next step and we didn't go ahead with 12 removing the -- putting all the products on one 13 line. They eventually did end up on one line, but 14 the program to put in bulk-handling and so forth, we 15 went out of the business before we got to that. 16 Q. So the decision was made in 1970 to, 17 I just want to make sure understand your testimony, 18 to phase out asbestos or just to limit its use? 19 A. No, to limit the number -- the 20 products we made to one production line. 21 Q. And the reason for that was? 22 A. So that we could put the latest 23 technology in one place and minimize the exposure of 24 our people in the plant to raw asbestos. 25 Q. Okay. And that was out of concern 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bi 1 for the people in the plant? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. You wanted to make sure they were 4 protected? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Regardless of whatever dust counts 7 would be done? In other words, your concern was to 8 minimize the exposure regardless of what the levels 9 were? 10 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 11 the question. I don't think he -- goahead. 12 A. Well, tests were already being run in 13 1970 at various points in the plant, and we were 14 within limits as I recall, by the correspondence. 15 Q. And even though you were in, within 16 limits, you still put a program in place to limit it 17 to one place in the plant to make sure that even 18 within limits people had maximum protection? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Is that fair? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And although the exposure was within 23 limits, the people who worked in that line, were 24 they given respiratory protection? 25 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 the question. In the context of when they were on 2 the line or when they were at different, working in 3 different areas on the line? 4 Q. You can answer it. 5 A. They were given more than respiratory 6 protection. During the '70s, they were given suits 7 to wear, they had masks that they put on where the 8 oxygen supply -- the air supply was, came from a 9 tank so there were many additional precautions 10 taken. 11 Q. Okay. So out of concern for the 12 people - 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. -- even when exposure was under OSHA 15 limits, people were provided suits and air-line 16 respirators? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Is that what you're saying? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. And at some point in time a 21 decision was made to remove the asbestos altogether? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And was that decision related to 24 health or some other reason? 25 A. It was related to concerns for 77 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 health. 2 Q. Okay. Now, when you say "concerns 3 for health," were they concerns only for your 4 employees or for other customers' employees as well? 5 A. For our molders. 6 Q. So when you decided to eliminate 7 asbestos in 1972 altogether, you had, you did it out 8 of one, concern for your own people; true? 9 A. Yes. Well, no, it was 1970 we 10 started, not '72. 11 Q. No, I understand. I'm talking about 12 when you said we're getting rid of all the 13 asbestos - 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. -- that was '72? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. First you decided --let me just make 18 sure I got the sequence. Okay? The first thing 19 that you did in 1970 was consolidate production to 20 one line, right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And those peoplewereprovided suits 23 and masks? 24 A. The intent was to do that. 25 Q. Okay. 78 79 80 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 A. I don't recall whether we actually 2 accomplished that or not. You would have to go to 3 the records for that. 4 Q. So then in 1972, a decision was made 5 to get rid of asbestos and phenolic molding 6 compounds altogether? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And when did that finally happen, 9 that it was, all the asbestos was removed? 10 A. By the end of 1974 it was probably 11 all completed. 12 Q. Okay. So in 1972, the reason for 13 doing that was, one, out of the concern for your own 14 people? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. Did that also include people 17 in the lab and the pilot plant? 18 A. No, those were separate facilities. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. The amount of asbestos we used there 21 was nowhere near what we used in the plant. 22 Q. So one, you decide to remove asbestos 23 in 1972 for concern for your own people; true? And 24 I mean Union Carbide employees. 25 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 the question. 2 A. No, it was concern for customers as 3 well. 4 Q. I'm not -- right. 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. And the second reason was for concern 7 for the employees of your customers? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. Was it ever considered that 10 there was a concern for people who had ultimately 11 come into contact with molded compounds made by your 12 customers? 13 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 14 the question. 15 A. A molded part is made to 16 specifications and it's -- and the part is fully 17 assembled. The holes are there for, that has to be 18 screwed into place. There is no need after it's 19 made for it to be machined or polished or cut. If 20 it is, its integrity is affected, so at that point 21 we felt that the risk to health was not -- was 22 minimal. 23 Q. When you say "minimal," what do you 24 mean by that? 25 A. Thereshouldn't be any asbestos 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 released -- there shouldn't be any drilling or 2 machining of that part. 3 Q. Well, sometimes the holes don't match 4 up in construction where products were used, right? 5 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 6 the question. What products? 7 A. If the hole -- if they're replacing a 8 part with another part that's meant to be there, the 9 hole should lineup. 10 Q. But it doesn't always happen? 11 A. Now, it depends what you're drilling 12 into. Now, we're not talking about the molded part 13 being drilled into, because if you do drill into 14 that, you weaken the part. 15 The backing which people are also 16 calling Bakelite is not a molding material, and 17 that's usually what they're drilling into when 18 they're moving -- you know, if the holes don't 19 lineup. 20 Q. When you say "backing," people also 21 call Bakelite, what do you mean by that? 22 A. The laminate. 23 Q. Okay. Well, did you have anything to 24 do with the laminate? You, Union Carbide. 25 A. We sold resins that people used to 81 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 make laminates. 2 Q. Okay. Let me go back to my original 3 question: You removed asbestos in '72 out of 4 concern for both your own employees and your 5 customer's employees;is that a fair statement? 6 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 7 the question. 8 A. With regard to our own employees, it 9 was necessary to do something about the raw asbestos 10 that they were handling in the plant, that was the 11 most critical point. With regard to the molders, 12 that was the labeling and the reducing the amount of 13 asbestos or taking it all out and doing it in stages 14 and as quickly as possible. 15 Q. When you say "molders," you're 16 talking about your customers' employees? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. So one of the reasons you removed 19 asbestos or decided to remove asbestos in '72 was 20 out of concern for your customers' employees? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What was theconcern? 23 A. That theremight be some fibers in 24 the granulated phenolic product that were asbestos 25 and in case they did not have a good ventilation 82 83 84 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 system, would create a health hazard. 2 Q. Did you ever run a test to find out 3 how much of a health hazard would be created? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. How did you do that? When did you do 6 that? 7 A. We took bags of asbestos and -- of 8 asbestos-containing molding material, two different 9 products, one with 30 percent and the other one was 10 below 15 percent, dumped them into bags, into drums, 11 fiber drums in a nonventilated area in our pilot 12 plant and measured the amount of fiber that was 13 released. 14 The tests were not time-weighted. 15 There was no ventilation. We did not determine how 16 much was cellulosic fiber and how much was asbestos. 17 We took the worst possible condition and as I 18 recall, the tests showed that the below 15 percent, 19 we were below the allowable OSHA limit at that time. 20 Over 15 percent, we were just above and so the goal 21 was to get down to 15 percent or less as quickly as 22 possible. 23 Q. When you say "15 percent," what do 24 you mean by that? 25 A. Fifteen percent asbestos in the 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 product. 2 Q. Okay. Now, was there a function in 3 the production facility where someone took the 4 asbestos-containing Bakelite and put it into the 5 barrel or the bag that you sold it in? 6 A. That was done automatically. 7 Q. What do you mean by that? 8 A. The product would come down a chute 9 and go into the container that was supposed to go 10 into a gaylord or bag. 11 Q. And were there people whose job it 12 was to watch that, that area? 13 A. If it went into bags, it required 14 somebody to take the full bag off and put a new bag 15 in place. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. Whether they ever automated that 18 system or not, I don't recall. 19 Q. Okay. That job, was that ventilated 20 that job? Was there ventilation in place? 21 A. Yes, definitely. 22 Q. Was the person who did that job also 23 given a mask? 24 A. He would have had access to it. I 25 don't remember whether they actually had to wear it 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 because they did do tests around the area. 2 Q. Okay. And what do you mean "they did 3 do tests"? What do you mean by that? 4 A. Running the OSHA fiber-counts test in 5 the -6 Q. Okay. 7 A. -- the air samples. 8 Q. Okay. In the context of the 9 production facility, one of the concerns was you 10 were using raw asbestos, correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And the raw asbestos was chrysotile 13 asbestos? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. At some point in time, say, in 1973, 16 you actually even tried Union Carbide's own 17 asbestos? 18 A. It was the pelleted Caladria asbestos 19 that we evaluated because we thought it might be a 20 solution to -- or, you know, reduce the amount of 21 asbestos that potentially would be released. 22 Q. It was like the nice asbestos? 23 MR. EDELL: He said it was 24 pelletized. 25 Q. It was the nice asbestos? It wasn't 85 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 supposed to give you as much exposure, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Okay. And in theproductionfacility 4 you used chrysotile? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And theUnion Carbide asbestos was 7 chrysotile? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And you decided to eliminate 10 chrysotile in the production facility altogether in 11 1972; true? 12 A. Our goal was to do that and worked 13 toward that end. 14 Q. Because you had sincere concern for 15 the health and safety of the people working there, 16 right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And you were concerned that they 19 possibly could get cancer from asbestos exposure? 20 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 21 the question. 22 A. At that point in time, that was what 23 we thought could happen, yes. 24 Q. All right. You thought that people 25 who were exposed to chrysotile asbestos in Bound 86 87 88 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 Brook would get cancer so you took whatever steps 2 were necessary to make sure they were protected; is 3 that fair? 4 MR. EDELL: You're asking him 5 personally? 6 MR. PLACITELLA: He was there. 7 MR. EDELL: If you're asking what he 8 did personally, what he thought personally and did 9 personally, that's fine. 10 A. Management did make that decision 11 and I was involved as partner. 12 Q. So management made the decision that 13 in order to protect people in the plant from getting 14 cancer from working with chrysotile asbestos, they 15 were going to remove asbestos from production; 16 true? 17 A. I wouldn't quite put it that way. 18 The decision was made to remove it to reduce the 19 hazard. We were meeting OSHA limits at that time 20 and we felt they were working in a safe environment. 21 Q. Well, you knew that people were 22 working in areas where they were under the OSHA 23 limits, correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. But you still had a concern that even 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 though they were working under OSHA limits they 2 might have a risk of getting cancer from working 3 with the chrysotile asbestos; true? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. So what youdid then was make 6 a decision to eliminate asbestos altogether? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. Because there was no way to 9 totally eliminate the risk unless you removed 10 asbestos altogether from the plant; true? 11 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 12 the question. You're asking him for his expert 13 opinion? 14 MR. PLACITELLA: He was part of the 15 management. Your comment is not necessary. 16 MR. EDELL: I think it is necessary. 17 MR. PLACITELLA: No, it's not. 18 MR. EDELL: You said management made 19 the decision. 20 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 21 Q. Were you part of management, sir? 22 A. I was part of the R&D management. 23 Q. You were in charge of this program; 24 were you not? 25 A. I was in charge of the asbestos 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 removal program, yes. 2 Q. All right. And the decision to 3 remove asbestos - 4 A. We wanted more of a safety -- we 5 wanted to obtain as much of a reduced risk to the 6 minimum that we knew how to at the time with the 7 technology that we had. 8 Q. You were aware that even under OSHA 9 limits, there was a risk that people exposed to 10 asbestos could get cancer; true? 11 A. The OSHA limits were subsequently 12 reduced so there was some risk at the levels we 13 were operating at. It subsequently turned out that 14 lower levels were required for exposure to 15 asbestos - 16 Q. Right. 17 A. -- and the safe limits were reduced. 18 Q. Right, but management was aware that 19 even exposure under OSHA limits created some risk 20 for getting cancer and that's why they decided to 21 get rid the asbestos altogether? 22 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 23 the question. 24 A. We didn't know that at that - 25 MR. PLACITELLA: Excuse me. 89 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 2 the question. 3 MR. PLACITELLA: I'll withdraw the 4 question and ask a different question. 5 MR. EDELL: You didn't like the 6 answer. 7 MR. PLACITELLA: No, I didn't even 8 hear the answer. Was there an answer and you 9 objected? 10 MR. EDELL: I did. 11 MR. PLACITELLA: I'll withdraw the 12 question and ask it a different way. 13 MR. EDELL: Go ahead, and then we'll 14 break for lunch. Isn't it 12? No, it's 11. Sorry, 15 I read it wrong. 16 MR. PLACITELLA: I know, you wish it 17 was 12. 18 MR. EDELL: No, I thought it was 12. 19 It's been a long couple of days for me. 20 MR. PLACITELLA: I was in the temple 21 longer than you. 22 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 23 Q. So the question is, you also then had 24 a concern for the health and safety of your 25 customers' employees,correct? 90 91 92 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And you knew from your tests that the 3 customers' employees were likely to be exposed to 4 asbestos levels below the OSHA limits; true? 5 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 6 the question. With a particular product? 7 A. Of the asbestos-containing product -- 8 Q. Yes, sir. 9 A. -- that was a possibility, yes. 10 Q. So you were still concerned for the 11 health and safety of your customers, employees, even 12 though you knew that it was likely that their 13 exposure would be below the OSHA limits; true? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. The OSHA limits at that time. 17 Q. Right. And the asbestos that they 18 would be exposed to would be chrysotile asbestos; 19 true? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And you wereworried that they could 22 get cancer; true? 23 A. I wouldn'tquite put itthat way. I 24 was worried that they would get cancer. Our goal 25 was not the cancer part, our goal was to give, 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bi 1 provide as much safety margin as possible, you know. 2 We would like, would have liked to have made it zero 3 but, you know, our goal was to make it as safe as we 4 knew how. 5 Q. And the only way to make it zero was 6 to get rid of the asbestos altogether, right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. When you were taking care of 9 your own employees using the raw chrysotile 10 asbestos, you, Union Carbide knew unless those 11 employees were adequately protected they could get 12 cancer, right? 13 MR. EDELL: Can I have the question 14 read back, please? Excuse me. Just so we're clear, 15 he's not being offered as a witness on that. 16 MR. PLACITELLA: Yeah, I get it. 17 MR. EDELL: As long as you get it, 18 fine. 19 (Record read.) 20 A. Based on the knowledge at the time, 21 we considered that could be a possibility. 22 Q. That if people were over-exposed to 23 chrysotile asbestos, they could get cancer? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And you knew that in 1972? 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 A. We knew that. That's when the OSHA 2 test came out with the limits and again, it became 3 common knowledge. 4 MR. EDELL: Again, this is an area 5 that he's not being offered as a representative of 6 Union Carbide. 7 MR. PLACITELLA: I'm asking him what 8 he knew as management, Union Carbide, not as an 9 expert witness. 10 Q. Do you understand I'm asking you 11 questions as what you knew as management at Union 12 Carbide? Do you understand that? 13 MR. EDELL: Chris, there's all sorts 14 of management and there's all sorts of levels of 15 management and this is a very large corporation and 16 not everyone who is in a quote, management position 17 can speak for the corporation on a particular 18 subject in a course of litigation. 19 We told you he's not being offered 20 as a corporate representative on this subject. I'm 21 not stopping him from answering the question. I'm 22 just saying he's not being offered as our 23 representative on this subject, period. You can 24 call him whatever you like. 25 MR. PLACITELLA: I'd like to call him 93 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 Mr. Martino. You keep trying to change him, what he 2 is. 3 MR. EDELL: I'm not calling him 4 anything. 5 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 6 Q. You, Mr. Martino were management of 7 Union Carbide in 1970? 8 A. I was part of the management of the 9 R&D effort. 10 Q. And you were part of the management 11 that made the decision or carried out the decision 12 to remove asbestos? 13 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 14 the question. There's a big difference between the 15 two. 16 A. I contributed to that decision. 17 Q. You contributed to the decision to 18 remove the asbestos? 19 A. Well, I was asked whether we could do 20 it and how fast we can do it. 21 Q. And it was known to the management 22 that made the decision to remove the asbestos that 23 if you were exposed to chrysotile asbestos, too much 24 of it, you could get cancer? 25 A. That was what OSHA said. 94 95 96 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 Q. Right, and it was known to you as 2 management in Union Carbide that you, even if you 3 were exposed under the OSHA limit, there was still a 4 possibility you could get cancer? 5 A. That was not implied by OSHA. The 6 OSHA test implied that if you were under that level, 7 it was the safe limit. 8 Q. I don't want to know about OSHA, I 9 want to know what Union Carbide knew. 10 MR. EDELL: Again, he's not being 11 offered to testify as the corporate representative 12 of Union Carbide. You want to know what he knew, 13 that's fine. 14 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, I'm hoping 15 that they told him what they knew because he was the 16 guy in charge. If they didn't tell him what they 17 knew -18 MR. EDELL: I'm not arguing - 19 MR. PLACITELLA: -- shame on them. 20 MR. EDELL: He wasn't in charge of 21 everything, Chris. 22 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. 23 MR. EDELL: He was in charge of the 24 effort to remove asbestos from the product. That 25 doesn't have to do with the decision to implement 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 that program, it doesn't have to do with keeping 2 apprised of the health hazards of the product. He 3 specifically referred to OSHA. 4 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. 5 MR. EDELL: I'm not stopping you from 6 asking him a question. 7 MR. PLACITELLA: I'll ask a different 8 question. 9 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 10 Q. Did you tell your customers they 11 were at risk, their employees were at risk for 12 getting cancer when using asbestos-containing 13 Bakelite? 14 A. As I recall, the sales department 15 told them about the OSHA regulations and what needed 16 to be done to check their facilities, you know, 17 described in the OSHA documents. I did not directly 18 deal with that. 19 Q. Do you know whether Union Carbide 20 told your customers that their employees were at 21 risk of getting cancer from using 22 asbestos-containing Bakelite? 23 A. All I know is that they were informed 24 of the OSHA test and what we were doing about - 25 within our facilities. What beyond that they told 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 them, I don't know. 2 Q. Who would know that? 3 A. Probably the sales manager. 4 Q. Who is that? 5 A. Paul O'Neil. 6 Q. Do you know, is he still alive? 7 A. I don't think so. 8 Q. Okay. Now, do you know whether 9 asbestos-containing Bakelite was ever used in 10 association with fuses? 11 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 12 the question. 13 A. No. 14 Q. You don't know? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Do you know whether 17 asbestos-containing Bakelite was ever used in 18 association with fuse panels? 19 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 20 the question. You can answer the question. 21 A. Depends on the amperage and voltage. 22 Q. What do you mean by that? 23 A. For residential uses, the most likely 24 product that was used would have been wood-flour 25 fill. For commercial uses, especially where the 97 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 voltages were high and the amperage was high, most 2 probably an asbestos-containing material wasused. 3 Q. What percentage of asbestos; do you 4 know? 5 A. About 30 percent. 6 Q. All right. Do you know whether 7 asbestos-containing phenolic molding compounds were 8 used and associated with circuit breakers? 9 A. Again, where -- if for residential 10 uses and what I know of those conditions, I would 11 expect a wood-flour-fill material to be used. 12 And for the higher voltages and 13 amperages privileges, I would expect the product 14 would contain some asbestos, but I don't know, you 15 know, where the customers, when they got the 16 material, what they put it into and what parts. 17 All I know is whether or not they 18 were buying from us - 19 Q. That's fair. 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. So the customers couldsell it for 22 asbestos-containing molding compound for residential 23 use, you just don't know? 24 A. That's right. 25 Q. Were asbestos-containingphenolic 98 99 100 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 molding compounds used in association with 2 electrical panels? 3 A. The same thing applies there. For 4 residential use, I would expect wood-flour-fill 5 material to be used, especially in the older 6 residences. Asbestos-containing products are more 7 expensive and they are also, you get fewer parts 8 per pound so you don't use them unless you have to 9 have them. You know, you'll go with the cheapest 10 product. 11 Q. Okay. Do you believe phenolic, 12 asbestos-containing phenolic compounds were 13 associated with electrical panels? 14 A. For residential use, I would expect 15 most of those panels would be wood-flour filled, but 16 again, I don't know all -- what all the customers 17 were doing, so you know, they're in a better 18 position to answer that question than I am. 19 Q. What about commercial use? 20 A. Commercial use, I would expect the 21 high-end products probably did contain some 22 asbestos. 23 Q. Do you know whether 24 asbestos-containing phenolic molding compounds were 25 used in association with contactors? 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bi 1 A. I read the description in the 2 deposition and my interpretation of what I saw there 3 is that that was based on a laminate, not a molding 4 material. And if it was a laminate, we would not 5 have made the laminate, we would have only sold the 6 resin. 7 Q. Suppose it wasn't a laminate. 8 A. What's that? 9 Q. Suppose it wasn't a laminate. 10 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 11 the question. 12 A. No, because it -- in the transcript 13 that I read, the plaintiff said it was like a 14 circuit board. A circuit board is based on 15 laminates. It's a flat piece so in that particular 16 case, if I'm correct, it would not have been a 17 phenolic molding material containing asbestos to 18 make the -19 Q. But here's my question: My question 20 is was phenolic molding material that contained 21 asbestos used in association with contactors? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. Was phenolic molding material that 24 contained asbestos used in association with control 25 panels? 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 A. Again, I don't have full knowledge 2 of what was in the control panels and there are a 3 lot more products then just phenolic molding 4 compounds used in the electrical industry, so I 5 have to go back to what I've given you before: If 6 it's low voltage, low amperage, the first place I 7 would start is with a wood-flour-filledphenolic 8 compound. 9 If it's high amperage, high voltage, 10 then I would question as to whether it would be 11 wood-flour filled. I don't know. 12 Q. Okay. By the way, in terms of the 13 asbestos substitute program, you were eventually 14 successful and got all the asbestos out by 1974? 15 A. There was one product, a 30 percent 16 product where we had difficulty finding a suitable 17 replacement for the asbestos and still keep all the 18 heat-resistant properties. 19 We were successful in reducing it to 20 15 when I left. Whether they were able to get it 21 all the way down to zero or not, before, you know, 22 we went out of the business, I don't know. 23 Q. Okay. So we have the sequence, 24 correct, from 1970 to 1974, there was an ongoing 25 effort to get asbestos out of the phenolic molding 101 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 compounds, correct? 2 A. Yes, yes. 3 Q. And was that a priority? 4 A. Absolutely. 5 Q. Why was it a priority? 6 A. Because at that time our customers 7 were also asking for asbestos-free products - 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. -- and, in fact, demanding them. 10 Q. Was health a consideration? 11 A. Fear of it being a health hazard, 12 yes. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. It was fear in many cases. 15 Q. Can you tell me why you made it a 16 priority to get asbestos out of your products during 17 1970 to 1974 and the other part of Union Carbide 18 that manufactured the fiber was trying to convince 19 companies to keep the asbestos in their products 20 during that period of time? 21 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 22 the question. 23 A. I don't know what they were doing. 24 Q. Would that shock you? 25 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 102 103 104 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 the question. Would what shock him? 2 Q. Would it shock you that at the time 3 that you made it a priority to get asbestos out, 4 that there was another part of Union Carbide that 5 was trying to convince companies to keep asbestos in 6 their products? 7 A. I don't know what products they were 8 trying to put the asbestos in. I don't know 9 anything about their business. 10 Q. Would that shock you? 11 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 12 the question. 13 A. I have no opinion whatsoever about 14 it. I don't know. 15 Q. Do you think it would be a 16 fulfillment of a company's moral responsibility? 17 MR. EDELL: He's not here to -18 Q. As an executive for Union Carbide, 19 do you think it was morally correct for you to make 20 the removal of asbestos a priority while other parts 21 of your company are pushing companies to use 22 asbestos? 23 MR. EDELL: He's not here to testify 24 to his moral judgment about anything. You want to 25 ask him factual questions, he'll answer them. You 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 don't have to answer any questions that call for 2 your moral opinions about anything. 3 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 4 Q. Well, when you worked for Union 5 Carbide, did you consider it to be a moral company? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And a company that was concerned for 8 the health and safety of its customers? 9 A. As I recall, chrysotile asbestos is 10 the only one that came out with a pelleted product, 11 and if they were pushing the pelleted product, they 12 probably thought it was safe. 13 I don't see where there's a moral 14 problem with that. I think they were trying to do 15 something about it. 16 Q. Suppose they were pushing a 17 non-pelleted product? 18 MR. EDELL: Suppose, suppose, 19 suppose. 20 A. I can't answer that. I had my own 21 problems to worry about, and in looking back, I 22 don't know what their, what they were doing and why 23 they were doing it. 24 Q. Well, you thought they were doing the 25 right thing when they were pushing a pelleted 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 product, right? 2 A. Because it was a safer product. 3 Q. Than the non-pelleted product? 4 A. Right. And did it meet the 5 requirements of OSHA when it was used in the 6 facilities that their customers were using? I don't 7 know that. I assume it did and if it did, they 8 would have pushed it. 9 Q. You're talking about the pelleted or 10 the non-pelleted? 11 A. I don't know anything about what they 12 were doing about the non-pelleted. 13 Q. So you thought it was part of their 14 moral responsibility to push a nice asbestos, right? 15 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 16 the question. You don't have to answer anything 17 about moral responsibilities. 18 Q. Well, you thought they were doing the 19 right thing when they were selling the pelleted 20 asbestos, correct? 21 MR. EDELL: If you formulated such 22 an opinion at that time. It's not what you think in 23 retrospect. 24 Q. Back then when you were asked to use, 25 to try to use the pelleted asbestos, you thought 105 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 Union Carbide was doing the right thing, right? 2 A. They were doing the same thing we 3 were doing, trying to get as much safety margin 4 under those conditions as possible. 5 Q. Right. So when it came to Union 6 Carbide protecting their own employees, they tried 7 to get their own employees to use the pelleted 8 asbestos, right? 9 A. I don't know what they were doing 10 with their own employees. 11 Q. Well, at Union Carbide they were 12 Union Carbide employees, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And in order to make it safer for 15 Union Carbide employees, one of the things you were 16 asked to do was to try the pelleted asbestos, 17 right? 18 A. We weren't asked, we asked for it. 19 Q. Oh. Who is "we asked for it"? 20 A. Manufacturing department -21 Q. All right. 22 A. -- that was working on, that was most 23 interested in going to bulk-handling facilities. 24 Q. Okay. I want to understand that. 25 Who did you ask and what you did ask? 106 107 108 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 A. When they came out with -- when the 2 Caladria asbestos people came out with a pelleted 3 asbestos -- well, let me back up one step: 4 The manufacturer wanted to go to 5 bulk-handling facilities whether it was a pelleted 6 or non-pelleted so that asbestos was all enclosed 7 and there was a minimum exposure. That was supposed 8 to take place with our supplier, the Carey Mines, I 9 believe, where they were going to deliver in hopper 10 car quantities. 11 When General Electric decided not to 12 make any asbestos molding materials at all, the 13 volume decreased and we did not -- and they would 14 not do that, so the remaining way of going to bulk 15 handling was to go to the pelleted, and it's my 16 understanding from the correspondence I saw they 17 went to Caladria and asked for the pelleted product 18 and we evaluated it. 19 Q. Why did they ask for the pelleted 20 product? 21 A. So they could bulk-handle asbestos. 22 Q. Because the pelleted product was 23 understood to be safer? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. All right. So when Union Carbide was 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bi 1 trying to do the best thing for its employees in 2 terms of - 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. -- safety - 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. -- Union Carbide asked for a pelleted 7 product? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Because that had less of a cancer 12 risk? 13 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 14 the question. 15 A. It -- well, it implies that the lower 16 you go, the less likelihood there is that you'll 17 be -- that there's a risk. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. That's true of any toxic material. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. Carbon monoxide from your exhaust. 22 Q. That's fair. So just to be fair, 23 when it was Union Carbide's concern for its own 24 employees in the Bound Brook plant, they asked that 25 you sample and try the pelleted product, correct? 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 A. "They," when you say -- 2 Q. Union Carbide. 3 A. Our manufacturing -- well, who made 4 the request to Caladria, I don't remember, but a 5 request was made to the Caladria people to come in 6 and help us with the bulk handling of asbestos and 7 this was the option that was presented. 8 Q. And the request was made by somebody 9 in management above you; is that fair? 10 A. I don't know who made the request, 11 who made the contact with them. 12 Q. Was it somebody in management? 13 A. I don't know. 14 Q. Okay. So let's just beclear: In 15 order to give maximum protection to Union Carbide's 16 own employees, a decision was made to use the 17 pelleted -- to try the pelleted asbestos versus the 18 non-pelleted asbestos, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Because that was thought to be safer? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. And when it was determined 23 that you couldn't use, that the pelleted asbestos 24 did not work, a final decision was made to get the 25 asbestos out altogether? 109 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 A. No. We werealready doing that. 2 Q. Okay. This was just an interim 3 measure? 4 A. What, the -5 Q. A pelleted. 6 A. -- a pelleted asbestos?Because as I 7 mentioned before, we didn't know whether we could 8 take all the asbestos out of the high-asbestos 9 products. 10 Q. So for those products that you can't 11 get the asbestos out, the decision was try a 12 pelleted asbestos because that would be safer? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. You were never asked by Union 15 Carbide to try the Caladria that wasn't a pelleted; 16 true? 17 A. I was in 1965 - 18 Q. Correct, for a short period of time? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. But it didn't operate the way you 21 wanted it to in your formulas, right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. So in 1973 you were going to give it 24 another shot but this time it was for safety 25 reasons? 110 111 112 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Okay. And in 1973, it wasn't even a 3 consideration to use the non-pelleted asbestos; 4 true? 5 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 6 the question. You're saying the non-pelleted. 7 Q. UnionCarbide non-pelleted asbestos, 8 the Caladria fiber, it wasn't even a consideration 9 in '73 to use that? 10 MR. EDELL: That's fine. Thank you. 11 Q. Correct? 12 A. You said the -- and as you know, the 13 pelleted Caladria asbestos didn't work. We couldn't 14 get it broken down into -- we got too many clumps 15 of asbestos fiber in our product, so the only 16 alternative left was to go back to a non-pelleted 17 form for the products we had to make. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. Whether it was going to be Caladria 20 or not, I don't think that we -- that we went back 21 to Carey Mines. 22 Q. Because it wascheaper? 23 A. No, no,because we wouldn't have had 24 to change the formulas. 25 Q. So you were willing to change the 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bi 1 formula if you could get the pelleted asbestos to 2 work because it was safer; true? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. But you weren't willing to change the 5 formula if you couldn't get it to work? 6 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 7 the question. 8 A. Well, there was no advantage at that 9 point? Why change? 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. Because every time you make achange 12 to a product you're taking a risk. 13 Q. That'sfair. Now, in1960 when you 14 became involved with the phenolic resins and 15 moldings, you sold about 50 million pounds a year; 16 is that fair? 17 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 18 the question. 50 million pounds of phenolic resins 19 or - 20 MR. PLACITELLA: And molding. 21 Q. That's what came out of Bound Brook? 22 MR. EDELL: Collectively? 23 MR. PLACITELLA: Yeah. 24 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 25 A. The capacity of our plant was about 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 50 million. 2 Q. All right. 3 A. Whether we actually sold that much 4 depend on other conditions: Sales, marketing. 5 Q. At one time Union Carbide was the 6 number one supplier of molding compounds, phenolic 7 molding compounds in the world; true? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. But when you took over in 1960 you 10 were number two, you were like Avis? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And Ithink youtold mebefore that 13 you're not familiar with all the specific uses 14 customers had for Bakelite as molding compound; is 15 that fair? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Do you have someknowledge based 18 upon your experience as who the main customers were 19 for phenolic molding compounds from 1960 to, say, 20 1974? 21 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 22 the question. Just generally, not asbestos - 23 Q. Generally. 24 A. Nonasbestos? 25 Q. No, just generally speaking, asbestos 113 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 and nonasbestos. 2 A. Well, the sales records of course 3 would show you who bought the most and what they 4 bought. 5 Q. Where are those records? 6 A. At the repository in Chicago. 7 Q. Have you ever seen those records? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. In what context? 10 A. When we needed to know if we actually 11 sold that particular customer a phenolic compound, 12 and if we did, did it contain asbestos. 13 Q. And when did you look at those 14 records? 15 A. Usually it was part of the deposition 16 when we needed to know that. 17 Q. So in preparation fordepositions? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. By the way, did you look at any 20 documents in preparation for today's deposition? 21 A. The -- I read Volumes I, II, III and 22 IV of the Bird depositions. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. And I saw thatsheet with all the 25 products that contained asbestos. It was attached. 114 115 116 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 MR. EDELL: Part of the amended 2 answers to interrogatories identifies the different 3 products that were manufactured that contained 4 asbestos. 5 MR. PLACITELLA: You mean the ones I 6 got this morning that were uncertified? 7 MR. EDELL: The one that the client 8 is bound by, yes. 9 MR. PLACITELLA: The one that I 10 didn't have a chance to look at before the 11 deposition? That's the set? 12 MR. EDELL: The ones that were 13 discussed with your partner. 14 MR. PLACITELLA: That's my boss, by 15 the way. 16 MR. EDELL: And who I offered to 17 adjourn the deposition to give her the opportunity 18 to review the interrogatories. 19 MR. PLACITELLA: We don't have time 20 to adjourn - 21 MR. EDELL: I know that. 22 MR. PLACITELLA: There's a discovery 23 deadline. 24 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 25 Q. When did you review the list that 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 contained products that contained asbestos? 2 A. I didn't review it, I just saw it. 3 Q. When? 4 A. Yesterday. 5 Q. And do you know a company called 6 Square D? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Who is Square D? 9 A. They are a molder of a lot of 10 electrical parts. 11 Q. Were they a customer for 12 asbestos-containing molding compounds when you went 13 to work in 1960? 14 A. My association with Square D, my 15 association, was in, later in the '60s. They may 16 have been a customer but I don't know if, whether 17 they were or not in the early '60s. 18 Q. Are you aware from reviewing 19 documents or correspondence as to whether Square D 20 was a customer in the early 1960s of Union Carbide? 21 A. I'm not aware. 22 Q. Okay. Was it still a customer when 23 you left in '73, '74? 24 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 25 the question. 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 ALL: Objection. 2 MR. EDELL: Still from when, the 3 early '60s when he said he didn't know? 4 A. They were one of the customers that 5 were asking for asbestos-free products, so at least 6 during part of the '70s they were probably a 7 customer, but you have to check the records. 8 Q. Where would I go to look at the 9 records? 10 A. Chicago. 11 Q. Those are those records that you 12 looked at? 13 A. Those are the ones that I looked at, 14 yes. 15 MR. PLACITELLA: I'll make a request 16 for those products. 17 MR. EDELL: They're in the same 18 repository that you were given an opportunity to - 19 MR. PLACITELLA: I want to see the 20 records he looked at, Mark. Not the needle in the 21 haystack that you want me to look - 22 MR. EDELL: You can look at those in 23 the context of this deposition. 24 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 25 Q. You looked at the records in context 117 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 of your consultation with Union Carbide for 2 litigation, didn't you? 3 A. For a specific customer, yes. 4 Q. Including Square D? 5 A. Well, we knew what we were selling to 6 the Lexington facility. I think there was one 7 instance that we checked to see if we were selling 8 to some of the other locations. 9 MR. PLACITELLA: I'll make a request 10 that I see a copy of all the sales records that this 11 witness has reviewed in the context of asbestos 12 litigation for any deposition or preparing for any 13 deposition, and we can fight about it later. 14 MR. EDELL: No, we don't have to 15 fight about it, just put it in writing and I'll 16 respond. 17 MR. PLACITELLA: She's making notes 18 for me. 19 MR. EDELL: That's fine. 20 Q. Now, do you know a 21 asbestos-containing molding compound with the 22 identification numbers 5303? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And did you sell that product to 25 Square D? 118 119 120 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 A. To Square D, Lexington facility? 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. Whether any other of their locations 4 used it, I don't know. 5 Q. You sold it to Square D? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Okay. And that product contained 8 approximately 30 percent asbestos? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Was it sold in bags? 11 A. Square D, as I recall,bought 12 gaylords. 13 Q. I'm sorry? 14 A. Gaylords. 15 Q. Bought gaylords? 16 A. They're big boxes that hold -17 Q. Okay. 18 A. -- about 1,000 pounds. 19 Q. So it was sold in a box? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And it wasgranular in form? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. I understand thatyouactually 24 visited Lexington and saw the product in use? 25 A. Yes. 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bi 1 Q. When it was used in use, used in 2 Lexington, was there a ventilation protection in 3 place? 4 A. Well, what they did was air-veyed 5 (sic) the material out of the box into the hopper, 6 was all enclosed. Whether -- I didn't look around 7 where the ventilators were. It was a clean shop. 8 Q. It's your understanding that product 9 was used by Square D and Switch Gear? 10 ALL: Objection to the form of the 11 question. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And what was the purpose of using the 14 5303 product in Switch Gear, if you know? 15 ALL: Objection to the form of the 16 question. 17 A. From a property point of view, 18 durability. The part would last longer, better arc 19 resistance, better dimensional stability. Now, 20 which of those took priority, I don't know. It 21 would be Square D that could answer that. 22 Q. Was it used for electrical insulation 23 protection? 24 ALL: Objection to the form of the 25 question. 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 A. I don't know. 2 Q. Okay. Are youfamiliar with a 3 product known as 5314? 4 A. The numbers are familiar. I would 5 have to look at the formula sheet to refresh my 6 memory as to what was in it. 7 Q. You don't recall as you sit here 8 today whether that contained asbestos? 9 A. No, I don't. 10 Q. Do you know that you sold 5314 to 11 Square D? 12 ALL: Objection to the form of the 13 question. 14 A. If the sales records show that, then 15 yes. I don't recall right now whether -- 16 Q. I believe at one time you indicated 17 in a prior deposition that the product was sold to 18 Square D for outlet boxes; do you recall that? 19 A. That, the outlet box program that we 20 were involved with, that was a Cecil-reenforced 21 product. Whether it contained asbestos or not, you 22 know, I would have to check the formulation sheet. 23 It's been a while since it's looked at it. 24 Q. Do you recall testifying that small 25 quantities of asbestos were used? 121 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 A. Then that's correct. 2 Q. And by "small quantities," I mean 3 under 15 percent. Is that what you understand? 4 A. Yes, as I recall, yes. 5 Q. Was Cutler Hammer a customer for 6 asbestos-containing molding compounds? 7 A. I would have to check the records to 8 see what they bought. 9 Q. Is it your understanding that Cutler 10 Hammer was a customer of Union Carbide? 11 A. They were from time to time. My 12 contacts with them were more limited. 13 Q. Okay. And when you say you would 14 have to check the records, what records are you 15 referring to? 16 A. Sales records. 17 Q. Where would you go to check those? 18 A. You know, the repository. 19 Q. So you went to the repository as the 20 expert for Union Carbide and said I need to see the 21 Cutler Hammer records, who would you ask and what 22 would you ask for? 23 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 24 the question. 25 A. We -- usually the discussion with the 122 123 124 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 attorney would determine whether we needed the 2 information and the attorney would obtain that 3 information and show it to me. 4 Q. Okay. Have you seen sales records 5 related to Cutler Hammer? 6 A. Not recently. 7 Q. No, but in the concept of your 8 consult and litigation, have you seen sales records 9 related to Cutler Hammer? 10 A. I may have, but I would have to check 11 my previous depositions, and I don't have all those 12 depositions to determine whether we did or not. 13 MR. PLACITELLA: I'll make a request 14 for those records. 15 Q. Do you know whether Allen Bradley was 16 a customer for phenolic molding compounds sold by 17 Union Carbide? 18 A. We tried to get their business. How 19 successful we were, I don't recall. 20 Q. In a prior deposition, you indicated 21 that Allen Bradley was a customer from 1960 to 1973. 22 Does that refresh your recollection? 23 MR. EDELL: Objection. 24 A. From when to when? 25 MR. EDELL: Wait, wait, wait. 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 Q. 1960 to 1973. 2 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 3 the question. As an officer of the court you're 4 making that representation - 5 MR. PLACITELLA: Page 63. Page 48 of 6 his Hawaii deposition. 7 MR. EDELL: If you're making the 8 representation that that's exactly what it states - 9 MR. PLACITELLA: I don't have the 10 exact words in front of me. 11 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 12 Q. Does it refresh your recollection 13 that Allen Bradley was a customer from 1960 to 1973? 14 MR. EDELL: I'm going to object to 15 the procedure that you're using. Show him the 16 deposition and see whether it refreshes his 17 recollection. 18 MR. PLACITELLA: Not required. 19 MR. EDELL: By your simply stating 20 21 MR. PLACITELLA: It's not required. 22 I was asking him a question. 23 THE WITNESS: I'm surprised that 24 that's in there. 25 MR. EDELL: He just wants to know if 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 it refreshes your recollection. Of it does refresh 2 your recollection, tell him yes or no. It's simple. 3 A. It does not. 4 Q. Have you ever heard of a company 5 called Bulldog Murray? 6 A. No. 7 Q. How about Siemans? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Have you reviewed sales records for 10 phenolic molding compounds related to Square D in 11 the context of being a witness for Union Carbide in 12 asbestos cases? 13 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 14 the question. 15 A. I don't recall in the instances where 16 I was a witness whether I did that. 17 Q. Okay. I'll pull the transcripts at 18 lunchtime. How's that? When you made the decision, 19 well, when you were part of the decision to remove 20 asbestos from the phenolic molding compounds, did 21 Union Carbide make you aware of the extent of its 22 knowledge about how little exposure it took before 23 you could get cancer? 24 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 25 the question. 125 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 A. I'm not of aware of any information 2 like that. 3 Q. Okay. You were, however, shown 4 documents in prior depositions indicating that even 5 an exposure as short of three months could be 6 responsible for cancer, correct? 7 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 8 the question. Exposure to what? 9 MR. PLACITELLA: Exposure to 10 asbestos. 11 MR. EDELL: In its pure form? 12 MR. PLACITELLA: Right. 13 MR. EDELL: I don't know, are we 14 talking about in the context of these products or 15 pure form? I don't know. 16 MR. PLACITELLA: Inquiring minds want 17 to know, but I have a question pending. 18 MR. EDELL: Then I object to the form 19 of the question. You're right, I apologize. 20 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. 21 MR. EDELL: I do apologize. 22 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 23 A. I was shown documents. Whether, you 24 know, I don't recall it in that detail for the 25 three months. If it was in the deposition then 126 127 128 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 I -2 Q. Well, I don't want to be unfair to 3 you so let me pull it up. 4 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 5 that question. 6 MR. PLACITELLA: What, that I don't 7 want to be unfair? 8 MR. EDELL: Yeah. 9 MR. PLACITELLA: Sorry. Could you 10 mark this? 11 MR. EDELL: And there should be "ha, 12 ha, ha" in parentheses. 13 MR. PLACITELLA: Highlighting is my 14 15 (Document, marked as Exhibit P-4 for 16 Identification.) 17 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 18 Q. Mr. Martino, you saw this particular 19 document in your deposition in April, correct? 20 A. It looks familiar, but during the 21 deposition I would not have had time to read the 22 whole thing. 23 Q. Why don't we, do you see in the lower 24 right-hand corner, it actually has the deposition 25 sticker number from your prior dep, lower right? Do 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 you see that? 2 A. Yes. 3 MR. EDELL: It says 1032108. 4 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 5 Q. Do you have an objection to looking 6 at that over the lunch break so I can ask you some 7 questions about it? 8 MR. EDELL: I do. The gentleman is 9 how old again? 10 THE WITNESS: 81. 11 MR. EDELL: 81. 12 MR. PLACITELLA: He looks awesome. 13 MR. EDELL: He does look awesome. 14 And it shows you what kinds of hazards are really 15 around this product. 16 MR. PLACITELLA: It's good Italian 17 blood. So you want to go breathe it? 18 MR. EDELL: Sure. 19 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. Good. We'll 20 arrange it. We'll put it in your house with your 21 kids and see what you think. 22 MR. EDELL: It's fine with me. 23 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. Great. 24 MR. EDELL: In any event, I'm going 25 to suggest that he use the hour or 45 minutes, 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 whatever we're going to take to relax. 2 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. 3 MR. EDELL: Relax as opposed to - 4 MR. PLACITELLA: That's fine. 5 Q. Why don't you take the time now and 6 familiarize yourself with the document. 7 A. Again I'm, you know, a time limit, I 8 can't read this and absorb it in a short period of 9 time. 10 Q. Sure. 11 A. But I did see this at the -- I was 12 shown portions. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. Shown this at the last deposition. 15 Q. That's fair. Do you understand that 16 this document is a Union Carbide document, internal 17 document from 1967? 18 A. It's a Union Carbide, Bakelite, 19 Limited document. 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. Yeah. That's an affiliate in 22 England. 23 Q. They make Bakelite in England? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. The same product that you made? 129 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 A. Not exactly, but they make molding 2 materials. 3 Q. They made asbestos-containing molding 4 materials? 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. Okay. And was authored during the 7 time you were involved in the manufacture of 8 asbestos-containing molding materials? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. True? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. And this was authored at a 13 time when you were, you, and your coworkers at Union 14 Carbide were personally exposed to asbestos; true? 15 A. It was in 1966. 16 Q. 1967? 17 A. 1967, yes. 18 Q. Okay. This document was never shared 19 with you while you worked in conjunction with 20 asbestos molding material while at Union Carbide, 21 correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. You were never shown it? 24 A. Never, no, I didn't see it. 25 Q. Page eight of the document under 130 131 132 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 "information accrued," it says "Disease is 2 associated with asbestos." Do you see that on the 3 64.0? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Can you read the highlighted portion? 6 A. "Three diseases are believed to be 7 caused by insulation of asbestos into the lungs. 8 They are asbestosis, bronchio-carcinoma, 9 mesothelioma of the pleura and peritoneum." 10 Q. Was that information shared with you 11 during the 1960s by Union Carbide while you were 12 personally exposed to asbestos? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Is that something that you wish they 15 would have told you? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. These peoplewho got the information 18 in the United Kingdom, they had similar jobs as the 19 people in the United States, didn't they? 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 Q. Is there somereason why the people 22 in the United Kingdom were more entitled to this 23 information than you were? 24 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 25 the question. 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 A. I don't know of any. 2 Q. As you sit here today, does it upset 3 you at all to learn that this information was shared 4 with people doing similar jobs in the United Kingdom 5 but not shared with you? 6 A. It doesn't surprise me because it's 7 an affiliate in England and communications are not 8 always that good. 9 Q. Well, did you know this was given to 10 one of the medical doctors in the United States who 11 ultimately said he thought what was in here was 12 correct? Do you know that? 13 A. I know it now. I didn't know then. 14 Q. All right. I want to turn to section 15 4.4 under the section, "Mesothelioma," and could you 16 read the paragraph that's highlighted? 17 A. "Mesothelioma is the most disturbing 18 of the three diseases attributable to asbestos for 19 two reasons: Firstly, in contrast to bronchial 20 carcinoma, it can occur in people with minimal 21 fibrosis only after a brief exposure which may be as 22 little as three months. Some authorities even 23 believe that a single brief exposure might be 24 sufficient." 25 Q. Was that information shared with you, 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 sir, while you and your coworkers were being exposed 2 to asbestos at Union Carbide in 1967? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Would you wish that they would have 5 told you that information, sir? "They" being the 6 management at Union Carbide. 7 A. Now, this was on the Coalinga 8 asbestos, these studies were based as I recall? 9 Q. I don't think that's what it says. 10 I'm just asking what the information is in front of 11 you. 12 MR. EDELL: If you want to read it, 13 you can read it. He's asking you an important 14 question. If you think you need to read further, 15 then read further. 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. First of all, do you recall my 18 question? 19 A. Yeah, it would have been useful, yes. 20 Q. You wish you would have been told? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. If you were told that people who were 23 working with you and around you could be at risk 24 for mesothelioma with as little as three months' 25 exposure, would you have asked management to start 133 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 substituting asbestos out of the product at least at 2 that point? 3 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 4 the question.It's in the same context? You're 5 representing it'sin the samecontext? 6 MR. PLACITELLA: Yes. 7 MR. EDELL: Okay. You can answer. 8 A. No, I would have probably done even 9 more with ventilation. That would be the mostrapid 10 response to the problem within the lab. 11 Q. Would you have thought that it may be 12 something that you should consider is get the 13 asbestos out? 14 A. That would be the next step which is 15 not, at that time would have been more difficult. 16 Q. Now, do you have any knowledge as to 17 why this information would be provided to people in 18 the United Kingdom that worked for Union Carbide but 19 not the people that you worked with? 20 A. I don't know. 21 Q. Would you have hoped that you got the 22 same information as the people in the United Kingdom 23 had about the dangers of working with asbestos? 24 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 25 the question. Did he hope? You're asking him in 134 135 136 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 retrospect today? You're asking him - 2 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, I'm asking 3 him back then, would he have hoped to have gotten it 4 if it was available. 5 MR. EDELL: And if it was valid? 6 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, your medical 7 director said it was valid. He said it was valid in 8 almost every respect. I'll show him that document 9 so he doesn't think I'm making it up. 10 MR. EDELL: In certain contexts, yes. 11 A. It would have been useful. 12 Q. But it wasn't given to you? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Does that disturb you? 15 A. That's -- after 40 years? Might have 16 disturbed me then. Now -17 Q. Well, we know that somewhere people 18 that worked got cancer? 19 A. Yeah, I know. 20 Q. Right? 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. But they weren't given this 23 information, to the people who got cancer that 24 worked with you, right? 25 A. Right. 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bi 1 Q. So does that disturb you? 2 A. It would have helped us to address 3 the problem sooner. 4 Q. Would you have told your customers 5 about the risks associated with asbestos exposure if 6 you had been made aware of this information in 7 1967? 8 MR. EDELL: Would he have personally? 9 MR. PLACITELLA: Yeah. 10 Q. Would you have made a recommendation 11 that customers be given the same information that 12 was being given to Union Carbide employees in the 13 United Kingdom about cancer in asbestos? 14 A. I would have viewed that as an 15 internal problem based on that document as to 16 exposure within our own facilities. I would have 17 thought at that time that the asbestos was bonded, 18 fully bonded into the phenolic compound and that the 19 health hazard was not external but internal. 20 Q. The "internal" being the exposure to 21 chrysotile asbestos? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Okay.Now, Union Carbide management 24 never had a discussion with you about the dangers 25 of asbestos specifically until OSHA was enacted in 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 1970; true? 2 A. Formal meetings, I don't recall, but 3 we were becoming aware of the problem in 1968 with 4 what was happening with Johns Manville. 5 Q. That's because you lived local and 6 you heard people were getting sick, right? 7 A. Well, the lawsuits and so forth. 8 Q. And you actually heard that people 9 not only that worked in the plant were getting sick 10 but people that lived in the town were getting sick, 11 right? 12 A. Well, I heard people in the plant 13 were getting sick. I don't recall the other part. 14 Q. Okay. So you read local news 15 articles about people getting cancer who worked at 16 Manville? 17 A. That's when it started, it started to 18 concern me. 19 Q. Right. And that was within a year of 20 this document, right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. At that point in time did 23 Union Carbide take any steps to protect its own 24 workers in the Bound Brook facility - 25 MR. EDELL: Objection. 137 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 Q. -- in 1968? 2 MR. EDELL: To the form of the 3 question. 4 Q. More than they had done before? 5 A. I don't know what they started to do 6 in manufacturing from that period of time. I'm only 7 familiar with what happened after the OSHA test was 8 introduced and testing began. 9 Q. But the specific conversations with 10 people above you at Union Carbide about cancer and 11 asbestos, didn't start until 1970; true? 12 A. They could have in manufacturing and 13 I'm not aware of if they did, what took place. 14 Q. I'm just talking about you. 15 A. You know, within R&D I don'trecall 16 anything formal. 17 Q. All right. So just so we're clear, 18 it wasn't until OSHA that Union Carbide had a 19 specific discussion with you about asbestos and 20 cancer? 21 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 22 the question. 23 A. As I recall the industry in general, 24 there was a lot of discussion in that time period as 25 to whether short-fiber, chrysotile asbestos was 138 139 140 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 actually a carcinogen. OSHA settled that argument, 2 you know, in 1970 and said it was, so to the best of 3 my recollection, we went through that period not 4 sure whether we had a problem or not and I didn't 5 see that. 6 Q. But in 1970 it was confirmed for you 7 that short-fiber asbestos, chrysotile could cause 8 cancer? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Including mesothelioma; true? 11 A. Mesothelioma in my mind didn't become 12 an issue until after I left Carbide. You know, we 13 didn't make that distinction. It was either cancer 14 or not cancer. 15 Q. So when you say "cancer," you 16 included mesothelioma? 17 A. Yes. 18 MR. EDELL: Objection. 19 Q. Okay. So as of 1970 it was confirmed 20 for you at Union Carbide that short-fiber chrysotile 21 asbestos caused cancer including mesothelioma? 22 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 23 the question. 24 A. Would you repeat that, please. 25 Q. In 1970 it was confirmed for you as 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bi 1 management of R&D at Union Carbide that short-fiber 2 chrysotile asbestos caused cancer which would 3 include mesothelioma? 4 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 5 the question. 6 A. In your definition it does include 7 it. At the time we did not make that distinction as 8 between the different types of cancer. You either 9 got it or you didn't get it. 10 Q. So cancer was cancer, didn't matter 11 where it was? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. All right. 14 A. And with regard to thesafety issue, 15 it was our conclusion that if we were successful in 16 maintaining the exposure within OSHA limits, that it 17 would be safe and you would not get cancer. 18 Q. But when you came to that conclusion, 19 you were never told that only a brief exposure as 20 little as three months could cause cancer, right? 21 A. No. 22 Q. During the time that you worked for 23 Union Carbide, were you ever told that a brief 24 exposure as little as three months could cause 25 mesothelioma? 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 A. I don't recall that. 2 Q. Is that something that you would have 3 wanted to know in order to protect the health and 4 safety of the co-workers who worked with you and 5 encountered asbestos at Union Carbide? 6 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 7 the question. 8 A. I would have thought that if we 9 stayed below the safe level, that we were okay. 10 MR. EDELL: Let's break for lunch. 11 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 12 MR. EDELL: Okay? Unless there's 13 something else you want to ask about. 14 MR. PLACITELLA: No. I'm assuming 15 you're not going to talk to him about any of this. 16 MR. EDELL: I would never do that. 17 MR. PLACITELLA: I know that. 18 MR. EDELL: And I've already told my 19 co-counsel. 20 MR. PLACITELLA: I heard you, thank 21 you. And having spent the whole day in yesterday, 22 in temple, I'm absolutely sure you'll follow your 23 ethical moral. 24 MR. EDELL: I absolutely will. 25 (A luncheon recess is taken.) 141 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 (Documents, marked Exhibit P-5 for 2 Identification.) 3 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 4 Q. I'll put that in front of you. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Now, Mr. Martino, you have in front 7 of you the sales report which we discussed this 8 morning. Do you recall that, the '67 document? 9 A. Yes, yes. 10 Q. Okay. Remember you indicated to me 11 I think that you don't know whether that ever made 12 its way over to the United States? Do you remember 13 that? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Now, I'm going to show you what's 18 been marked P-5 for identification June 7, 1967, a 19 letter from the associate medical director for Union 20 Carbide, Dr. Dernehl. I'll ask you to take a look 21 at that. 22 Do you see that, sir? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Do you see inthe very first 25 paragraph -- 142 143 144 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. -- Dr. Dernehl is referencing the 3 Sayers report? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. That's P-4, correct. P-5 is 6 the letter from Dr. Dernehl and P-4 is the report 7 from Mr. Sayers. 8 Do you see that? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. And - 11 MR. EDELL: At least in some form 12 he's referring to it, yes. 13 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, it refers to 14 it in the first paragraph. 15 MR. EDELL: Yes. 16 MR. PLACITELLA: Can we agree to 17 that? 18 MR. EDELL: Yes. 19 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 20 Q. And Dr. Dernehl iswriting a letter 21 back to a doctor in United Kingdom, correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And he's writing it fromwhere? 24 Where was his office? Do you see on the top? 25 A. 270 Park Avenue. 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bi 1 Q. So he was writing it from New York 2 City? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. All right. So apparently he got the 5 Sayers report; would youagree with that? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Okay. And howfar was Dr. Dernehl's 8 office in New York City from Bound Brook where you 9 worked? 10 A. A little over 30 miles. 11 Q. Right. If somebody wanted to get 12 information to you that was important from New York 13 City, the medical department to Bound Brook, was 14 there any great impediment in doing that, that 15 you're aware of? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Could have gotten in his car and been 18 here in 45 minutes; do you agree? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What doesDr. Dernehl say in his 21 letter about, in the first paragraph about 22 Mr. Sayers' report? 23 A. "In general I find it reasonably 24 accurate. I do not attach very much importance to 25 the data on the incidents of asbestosis and death 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 from asbestosis and cancer because these are merely 2 tabulations of events and do not take into 3 consideration the number of people who were 4 subjected to the possibilityof the event 5 occurring." 6 Q. Okay. Dr. Dernehl does not take 7 issue with any of the comments in Mr. Sayers' report 8 relating to mesothelioma, does he? 9 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 10 the question. 11 A. I don't see a reference to 12 mesothelioma here. That's on the next page. 13 Q. Right. Dr. Dernehl does not say 14 that's not true, that you could get mesothelioma 15 from as little as three months' exposure, does he? 16 A. I don't see any reference to 17 three-month exposure here. 18 Q. Right, he just says that thereport 19 is accurate as far as he can see, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. But does he sayas itrelates to 22 mesothelioma, he, the medical director at Union 23 Carbide, has no idea what the safe level is? Isn't 24 that what he says? 25 A. That's correct. 145 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 Q. All right. And in 1967 when you and 2 your co-workers were being exposed to asbestos at 3 the Bound Brook facility, were you ever told by the 4 Union Carbide medical director that he had no idea 5 whatsoever what the safe level of an asbestos 6 exposure would be? 7 A. I wasn't told. What I don't know is 8 what communications he may have had with the plant. 9 Q. With the plant? 10 A. With the plant. 11 Q. As somebody being exposed to asbestos 12 in your job, is that something that you would have 13 wanted to know, that the medical director had no 14 idea what level of asbestos exposure was going to 15 prevent cancer? 16 A. I would have wanted toknow, yes. 17 Q. And don't you think that the rest of 18 the people would have wanted to know that too? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. You said in1973 or so you guys 21 tried, experimented with the use of the pelleted 22 Caladria fiber that was manufactured by Union 23 Carbide; do you recall that? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. The pelleted fiber was asbestos that 146 147 148 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 was coated, correct? 2 A. I don't know about the coating, I 3 thought it was just compressed. 4 Q. Compressed into a pellet? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. First it's just a free-form fiber? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. When you receivedthat asbestos, how 9 did it come to you? 10 A. We were asked to test it in the 11 formulation so I don't recall what kind of container 12 it came in. 13 Q. Did the container have anywarnings 14 on it? 15 A. I don't recall. 16 Q. If there was a warning, do you think 17 you would remember that there was a warning? 18 A. I don't even recall looking at the 19 container. 20 Q. Well, where did the container come 21 to? Where did it go? 22 A. It would have gone to one of the 23 people in my group that was assigned the 24 responsibility of evaluating the material. 25 Q. Was the container in your vicinity 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bi 1 that it came in? 2 A. Well, each person had a storage area 3 for whatever they used so it most likely would have 4 gone there first. 5 Q. Okay. But you have no recollection 6 of receiving any warnings about the dangers of 7 asbestos or using that product from the Caladria arm 8 of Union Carbide; is that fair? 9 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 10 the question. 11 A. I don't recall any, no. 12 Q. All right. You don't remember 13 anything about cancer coming with the product, 14 right? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. Nothing about wear a respirator if 17 you use it, correct? 18 A. Now, you're saying with the 19 container? 20 Q. Yeah. 21 A. Well, since I didn't see the 22 container I don't know what was on it. 23 Q. Did you receive any type of 24 literature with the product? 25 A. If we did, it would have gone to the 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 person that was assigned the job. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. And I don't recall what he got. 4 Q. Do you recall something known as 5 general purpose Bakelite? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you recall general purpose 8 Bakelite with a designationBMG 5020? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do you recall that that contained 11 asbestos? 12 A. I would have to check the formulation 13 sheet on that one. 14 Q. Do you recall that it was called, it 15 was used in things like household Switch Gear and 16 circuit breakers? 17 A. I recall we were -- it was being sold 18 to Switch Gear companies. 19 Q. Now, Mr. Edell this morning gave me a 20 new set of interrogatory answers, yetuncertified in 21 this case. 22 MR. PLACITELLA: And I'll have these 23 marked P-6. 24 (Documents, marked Exhibit P-6 for 25 Identification.) 149 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 Q. Before I get to that, you told me 2 that yesterday you met with Mr. Edell, correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And he showed you a list of phenolic 5 molding compound products; am I correct? 6 A. A page. 7 Q. A page? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Was it a loose page or was it 10 attached to something? 11 A. It was attached like that. 12 Q. Okay. I'm going to show you page 84 13 and ask you if this is the -- and 85, if this is the 14 list that you're referring to. 15 A. I saw page 84. I did not see 85. 16 Q. Okay. Now, I believe the 17 interrogatory answers indicate that at one time or 18 the other, those designations were 19 asbestos-containing phenolic molding compounds; is 20 that your understanding? 21 MR. EDELL: Those refers to - 22 MR. PLACITELLA: On 84 and 85. 23 MR. EDELL: He didn't look at 85. 24 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, on 84. 25 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 150 151 152 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 A. These are all the products that we, 2 in the repository regardless of when they were made 3 that contained asbestos at one time. 4 MR. EDELL: Don't you want him to 5 look at 85? 6 MR. PLACITELLA: Yeah. 7 Q. Do you recognize the products listed 8 on 85? 9 MR. PLACITELLA: Did you show him 85? 10 MR. EDELL: No. Off the record. 11 (A discussion is held off the record. 12 A. Many of them, some of them I would 13 have to look up. 14 Q. Would you take issue with the 15 statement that at one time or the other all of those 16 products contained asbestos? 17 A. Would I take issue withthat? 18 Q. Yeah. 19 A. No, I wouldn't. 20 Q. Do you have an independent knowledge 21 that at one time all those products contained 22 asbestos? 23 A. I would have to go to the formulation 24 sheets and check each one. 25 Q. All right. 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 A. And check also what changes were made 2 during their life cycle. 3 Q. But you haven't done that? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Are those records available for each 6 product? 7 A. If these were in, taken from the 8 repository, I would expect that most of the 9 formulation sheets were there, but I wouldn't know 10 until I checked. 11 Q. Okay. I'm looking at the series of 12 products there, and I see it skips from 5304 to 13 5306. Do you see that on that page? 14 A. Is it on 84 or 85? 15 Q. Let me -- if I can help you see here 16 where it says 5304, see where my thumb is? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. See where it skips from 5304 to 19 5306? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you know why 5305 is not included? 22 A. No. 23 Q. The reason I ask that is this 24 document that I'm not allowed to ask you questions 25 about, it lists 5305 as an asbestos-containing 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 phenolic molding compound. Do you know why? 2 MR. EDELL: I thought you weren't 3 going to ask questions about that. Why don't we 4 discuss that later? If the answer is wrong, it's 5 wrong. 6 Q. Well, that's not the first time that 7 Union Carbide had given inaccurate information about 8 the products that it sold that contained asbestos; 9 true? 10 A. I'm not familiar with 5305. 11 Q. Well, sir, you're familiar with the 12 fact that Union Carbide committed a deliberate fraud 13 on the U.S. EPA in terms of the products it said 14 that it manufactured that contained asbestos; true? 15 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 16 the question. 17 A. No, I wouldn't say that. The 18 document I saw showed the asbestos-containing 19 products that were considered our product line at 20 that point in time. These products cover everything 21 that were evermade. 22 Q. Well, let me have this marked as 23 marked as P-7. 24 (Documents dated October 4, 1989, 25 marked Exhibit P-7 for Identification.) 153 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 Q. This is no offense to you, 2 Mr. Martino. I know that you had nothing to do with 3 this, but I have to ask you some questions about 4 this. Okay? 5 A. Sure. 6 Q. I have before me P-7 which is a 7 document that was shownto you back in your 8 deposition in April. If you would take a look at 9 it, without my highlighting of course. 10 A. Okay. I'm going to skip over the 11 Caladria portion. 12 Q. Yeah, absolutely. 13 A. Okay. What's your question? 14 Q. You're familiar with this document, 15 right? You saw it at your last deposition? 16 A. The one I saw on the last deposition 17 contain more information. 18 Q. It also had the actual reg attached 19 to it, is that - 20 A. Well, it had the formulations. 21 MR. EDELL: You're not trying to 22 commit a fraud, are you? 23 Q. I don't have anything with 24 formulations. 25 A. I fell into the same -- yeah, that's 154 155 156 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 happened to me too. I've seen it with no 2 formulations and then I've seen the same document -3 Q. Okay. 4 A. -- with formulations. 5 Q. Let's talk about this document. This 6 document was submitted in 1989 to the U.S. EPA by 7 Union Carbide, correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You weren't making any asbestos 10 phenolic molding compounds back then, right? 11 A. In 1989? 12 Q. Right. 13 A. No. 14 Q. And what you're submitting is, EPA 15 was saying tell us all the asbestos-containing 16 products that you ever sold or manufactured, and 17 this is what Union Carbide told them, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Now, the reason theywere asking for 20 this is because the EPA wanted to be able to tell 21 people what products were out there possibly still 22 in circulation that they needed to protect 23 themselves from? 24 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 25 the question. Are you asking of his own personal 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 knowledge? 2 MR. PLACITELLA: Yeah. 3 MR. EDELL: Would you repeat that 4 again, please. 5 Q. The reason the EPA was asking for 6 this information was so they would have information 7 about what products were potentially out there that 8 people could still be exposed to? 9 MR. EDELL: Same objection. 10 A. I don't know what the reasons were 11 that EPA had for it, wanting that information. 12 Q. You agree that in responding to a 13 request from the EPA that Union Carbide had the 14 obligation to be truthful and accurate in every 15 respect; do you agree with that? 16 MR. EDELL: I'll going to object to 17 the form of that question. With respect to this 18 particular witness, you're asking for a legal 19 conclusion or you're asking for - 20 MR. PLACITELLA: He's the guy that 21 knows everything about Bakelite. The guy with the 22 most knowledge. 23 MR. EDELL: He's not here as a 24 representative to talk about what legal obligations 25 they had when and where, that's for sure. 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 2 Q. Was your understanding as a expert 3 witness for Union Carbide that it was allowed to 4 misrepresent the information it had in its 5 possession about these asbestos-containing products 6 that it sold and manufactured? 7 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 8 the question. You're talking about -- he's 9 appearing now as an expert witness? 10 MR. PLACITELLA: He told me he was 11 working for you as an expert witness. 12 MR. EDELL: Are you asking now if 13 he's testifying - 14 MR. PLACITELLA: I don't know if he 15 is or he didn't. You tell me. 16 MR. EDELL: That shows there's a 17 problem with your question, so objection to the form 18 of the question. 19 A. In 1989 I don't know what records 20 they had at their disposal with regard to the 21 business. When I started as an expert witness, I 22 couldn't find any records except that book I had. 23 Q. You couldn't find any records because 24 they were all in the possession of Union Carbide? 25 A. No, no. I had asked where are the 157 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 records, you know, on formulations sheets and I was 2 told there weren't any. 3 Q. Who told you there weren't any? 4 A. The attorney I was working with. 5 Q. Well, that obviously wasn't true; 6 wouldn't you agree? 7 A. Well - 8 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 9 the question. 10 A. Well, it turned out later, you know, 11 that they did find them. They were found in the 12 basement of one of the buildings in Bound Brook, but 13 I don't know if the people who wrote this document 14 had the same problem I did, where nobody knew where 15 the records were. 16 Q. When did you find out where all the 17 records were? What year? 18 A. That was in 2002 during a deposition. 19 Q. Do you know whether or not Union 20 Carbide went back to the EPA and amended this 21 submission? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. Well, they certainly had the many 24 records by 2002 if that was their intention; 25 wouldn't you agree? 158 159 160 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 A. Well, then yes. Yes, they did. 2 Q. All right. Now, the interrogatory 3 that you have in front of you - 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. -- that lists all the products, that 6 wasn't -- that list of products, the first time you 7 saw that list was in your April deposition of this 8 year; true? 9 Not that particular piece of paper, 10 but the first time you found out that there were 11 another 40-some-odd products not listed in this 12 letter that contained asbestos sold by Union Carbide 13 was in your deposition of April this year? 14 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 15 the question. 16 Q. All right. I don't want to tax you. 17 Let's do it this way, okay? I only looked at the 18 first two rows. Do you see - 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. -- onpage 84? 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. I only looked at the first two rows 23 and I can only find one of the products that's on 24 that list, that's listed in the submission to the 25 EPA by Union Carbide. See if you can, just the 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 first two rows alone - 2 A. Well, the first four of those 3 products were there, are only three numerical - 4 three numbers. Those go way back, probably '50s. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. They would probably either have been 7 obsoleted or the numbers changed when we changed the 8 new number system -9 Q. Okay. 10 A. -- so they could be duplicates of the 11 rest of these. 12 Q. What product in the first two rows 13 alone is listed in the EPA submission? 14 A. 2035. That's it. I don't see 2085 15 on it. That's it. 16 Q. All right. Would you agree with me, 17 sir, that there's numerous asbestos-containing 18 products listed in these new answers to 19 interrogatories that were never submitted to the 20 EPA? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And these amended answersonly came 23 after your deposition in April of this year when it 24 was pointed out to you that Union Carbide had 25 provided inaccurate information to the EPA, correct? 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 2 the question. 3 A. That question on whether they had 4 submitted inaccurate data to the EPA, I don't recall 5 whether that came up during that deposition. I 6 would have to look at that deposition. 7 Q. Okay. In order to downplay the role 8 of Union Carbide and manufacturing phenolic molding 9 compounds, what Union Carbide told the EPA was that 10 most, at any point in time, the most they ever sold 11 in their product line was 40 percent asbestos; true? 12 A. That 40 percent is based on pounds 13 manufactured, not numbered formulation. 14 Q. So can I have this for a second? 15 A. Sure. Q. So this statement on the bottom of the EPA submission says, "Most Bakelite did not contain asbestos." A. Yes, that's the -Q. That's an untrue statement? 21 A. No, it's not. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. 60 percent, at the peak of 24 40 percent, 60 percent did not contain asbestos. 25 Q. 60 percent did not contain asbestos? 161 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 A. That's right. 2 Q. It says, "At its peak, 3 asbestos-containing Bakelite comprised 40 percent of 4 the Bakelite produced by Union Carbide." Do you 5 see that? 6 A. Yes, that 40 percent of what was 7 manufactured, if we made 50 million pounds, at its 8 peak, 20 million were asbestos-containing and the 30 9 million were nonasbestos-containing. 10 Q. Of allthe phenolic molding 11 compounds - 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. -- that were being produced when you 14 were involved with them, more than 50 percent by 15 products mixed contained asbestos; true? 16 A. No. 17 Q. No? 18 A. No, no, it says at its peak we 19 reached 40 percent, so 60 percent did not contain 20 asbestos, 40 percent did - 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. -- and that's volume, not 23 formulations. 24 MR. PLACITELLA: Can we mark this 25 next, please. 162 163 164 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 (Document dated November 22, 1972, 2 marked Exhibit P-8 for Identification.) Eight. 3 Q. Mr. Martino, you have in front of 4 you P-8. You've seen that document before; true? 5 A. Yes, I have. 6 Q. This document for the record is dated 7 November 22, 1972, and you're copied on this 8 document; true? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. And it goes to a 11 Mr. R.E. Nicholson. Who is he? 12 A. He was the general manager of the 13 business. 14 Q. From a Mr. Albright. Who is 15 Mr. Albright? 16 A. He was the department head of the 17 phenolic molding material department. 18 Q. And this document was generated at 19 a time when the removal of asbestos from the 20 phenolic molding compounds was in discussion at 21 Union Carbide, correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Page threeunderAlternatives 24 indicates what percentageof the product mix at that 25 point contained asbestos. 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 A. What -- which -2 Q. See number two? See where I have it 3 highlighted? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What does that say? 6 A. It says "Discontinue manufacture of 7 all products containing asbestos 60 percent of the 8 current product mix." 9 Q. All right. So the products 10 containing asbestos as of 1972, according to this 11 document, were comprised of 60 percent of the entire 12 product mix? 13 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 14 the question. 15 Q. Correct? 16 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 17 the question. I think you're mixing apples and 18 oranges. 19 MR. PLACITELLA: I don't think so. 20 A. This is counting formulations. 21 Q. Yes, sir. 22 A. Not volume. 23 Q. Not volume? 24 A. Not volume. 25 Q. So 60 percent of the formulas for 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 asbestos -- for phenolic molding compounds as of 2 1972 contained asbestos? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. And we represented 40 percent of the 6 total pounds. 7 Q. Did you tell that to the EPA, that 8 you were talking about pounds and not the total 9 product mix? 10 A. I didn't. 11 Q. So as of 1972 more than 50 percent of 12 the product mix for phenolic molding compounds 13 manufactured by Union Carbide contained asbestos; 14 true? 15 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 16 the question. That's upon how you define the "mix." 17 A. I haven't tried to duplicate -- try 18 to, you know, duplicate this figure. I'm accepting 19 it that that's what they all came up with by 20 counting formulations. 21 Q. Well, you didn't take exception to it 22 when you got the memo, right? 23 A. When I got which memo? 24 Q. This memo in front of you. 25 A. Because I've been able to come up 165 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 with the volumes with the records I had. 2 Q. What records? 3 A. There was a document that listed, I 4 think it was 1968, when manufacturing was doing a 5 study where they took all the asbestos formulations 6 and figured out the number of pounds that they were 7 trying to -- they were trying to put all the 8 products on one line, and they were trying to 9 determine how much in volume they had to handle 10 there and it shows formulations and it shows pounds 11 of product. 12 Q. When did you see that document? 13 A. That I saw in the 2002 deposition. 14 Q. Okay. 15 MR. PLACITELLA: I'll make a request 16 for that document. 17 Q. Am I correct that - 18 A. I had to, you know. That's what 19 started me and then I had to do a lot of other, look 20 at a lot of other documents to bring it all 21 together. 22 Q. What other documents? 23 A. Letters with regard to how many 24 pounds of certain products we were making at the 25 time, but the one I mentioned was the primary 166 167 168 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 document. 2 MR. PLACITELLA: I'll make a request 3 for all documents reviewed by you. 4 Q. Okay. So do we agree now that - 5 this is a business record for Union Carbide, 6 correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. According to this business record 9 that 60 percent of the product formulations as of 10 1972 for phenolic molding compound contained 11 asbestos? 12 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 13 the question. 14 A. Based on Dale's calculations, yes. 15 Q. And I think that squares with the 16 statement to the EPA that most Bakelite did not 17 contain asbestos? 18 A. If you base it on volume, yes. 19 Q. Supposed you base it on product 20 formulations, does it square? 21 A. Well, then I have to go to that 22 which I haven't been able to confirm so I'm taking 23 it at face value. 24 Q. Do you have any knowledge, personal 25 knowledge as to why, when the submission was made to 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bi 1 the EPA that all of the asbestos-containing 2 formulations were not provided? 3 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 4 the question. 5 A. I think it's what I gave you before. 6 I don't know what records they had on hand 7 in 1989 that they could work from. 8 Q. So your understanding is that these 9 records somehow appeared in the basement of Bound 10 Brook after 1989? 11 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 12 the question. 13 A. Yes, they did. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. I know they did. 16 Q. Who said to go look for records in 17 the basement in Bound Brook? Who told you to do 18 that? 19 A. I don't know? 20 Q. Now, I read your prior testimony. I 21 just want to make sure I'm clear: It looked like 22 from your prior testimony you said that testing was 23 done in the lab to see if Bakelite products released 24 asbestos fibers when they were drilled, cut or 25 abraded. 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 Was that done? Am I correct about 2 that? It's a little confusing, to tell you the 3 truth. 4 A. Yeah, I recall that we did run a 5 Taber abrader test. A wheel was run over a block to 6 sand the surface, and we also ran drilling tests, 7 drill holes through the blocks and air samples were 8 taken. I haven't been able to find anything in the 9 records of thattest. 10 Q. Did you have to physically look for 11 them yourself? 12 A. Oh, I've asked, you know, the people 13 at the repository if they could find anything and 14 they haven't been able to. 15 Q. Where did they look; do you know? 16 A. Well, I asked just that. Is there 17 anything on the Taber abrader and the drilling test. 18 It would probably be a letter with results in it to 19 me. 20 Q. And what were you told, that they 21 don't exist? 22 A. I don't know if they -- I remember - 23 I vaguely recall we ran the test. I don't know if 24 the records of that test do exist anyplace. I 25 haven't seen them yet. 169 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 Q. What was the purpose of that test? 2 A. It was done primarily for our 3 molders. Though the finished part does not require 4 sanding,drilling, polishing, some of our molders 5 didn't always design a mold so that the hole is 6 molded in. It may be in such a position where they 7 can't get the mechanism in right, so they have to 8 drill a hole in the part. 9 The other place where there's a 10 possibility where they have to do some finishing is 11 the flash or the mold. Half of the part is in 12 one-half of the mold and the other half is in the 13 other part, so where the two pieces of metal come 14 together, any phenolic molding compound that -- the 15 excess gets squeezed out so you end up with a little 16 rib or thin -- you know. That has to be removed. 17 In most cases, the molder has, you 18 know, can do it in a tumbler and like that. In 19 some parts where the appearance isimportant, they 20 have to do it by hand, so that's the purpose of the 21 Taber abrader test. 22 Q. Okay. So you did the test which 23 included sanding and drilling? 24 A. Right. 25 Q. And do you have a recollection what 170 171 172 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 the test showed? 2 A. My recollection was that the fiber 3 count that they got was very close to the fiber 4 counts theyhad in the control which was very low. 5 Q. But there was some? 6 A. I don't recall the exact numbers. It 7 was so close that I recall being told that they 8 weren't sure there was a difference. 9 Q. Who did the test? 10 A. That I haven't been able to determine 11 either because I don't have the records -- you know, 12 the person who did some of the other tests doesn't 13 have any records. 14 Q. Who is that? 15 A. Doug Neill. 16 Q. Is he still alive? 17 A. As far as I know. 18 Q. Where does he live? 19 A. In Plainfield. 20 Q. Have you had a discussion with him 21 about it? 22 A. Yes. He doesn't remember doing it. 23 Q. He doesn't remember doing the test at 24 all? 25 A. He didn't remember taking the 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bi 1 samples. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. Whether somebodyelse took the 4 samples at the time, I don't recall. 5 Q. So you got the samples back, it had 6 some difference from the nonasbestos but you don't 7 know what the difference was; is that fair? 8 A. Right. All I remember is it was very 9 close but I don't know how, you know, how close. 10 Q. Do you know - 11 A. I know it was wellwithin -- well 12 below the fiber limit. 13 Q. Was it well below the current OSHA 14 standards? 15 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 16 the question. The current OSHA standard? 17 Q. Well, you understood that the OSHA 18 dropped its numbers as time went on, right? Was the 19 reading below the eventual OSHA standards that were 20 dropped? 21 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 22 the question. 23 A. I don't remember. 24 Q. Okay. Are there circumstances in the 25 field where asbestos-containing Bakelite can melt? 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bi, 1 A. No. The -2 Q. I'm talking about the end product. 3 A. The end product, no. The phenolic 4 compound is a thermosetting product which means when 5 you heat it up, it cross-links and once it does 6 that, it didn't melt. 7 Q. Can it wear out over time? 8 A. You mean lose strength? 9 Q. Right. 10 A. At -- if you age the product at 11 elevated temperatures for long periods of time, it 12 will lose strength, yes. 13 Q. Are there ever circumstances to your 14 knowledge where the phenolic molding compound in 15 the electrical setting would have to be scraped 16 out? 17 A. I don't know. I can't think of an 18 example where under normal circumstances that should 19 be necessary. The product doesn't melt so what 20 should stick? 21 Q. I don't know.That's why I'm asking 22 the question. 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. You don't know? 25 A. Based on what Iknow about the 173 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 product, I see no reason for that to occur. 2 Q. Okay. Now, after you ran the 3 abrasion test, are the results of those tests ever 4 communicated to any of your customers? 5 A. I don't recall that we did. I know 6 my conclusion was we did not have a problem. 7 Whether we told the customer that, that I'm not 8 sure. I don't recall doing it. 9 Q. Do you recall, are you aware of any 10 test that the customers ever performed to determine 11 whether asbestos fibers were released during 12 abrasion or drilling the phenolic molding compound? 13 A. If they did, they didn't communicate 14 that to me. 15 Q. Okay. There were occasions where the 16 dust counts in the production department at Union 17 Carbide for asbestos exceeded OSHA limits; am I 18 correct? 19 A. On occasion that did occur, yes - 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. -- at certain points in the process. 22 Q. Are you aware of somebody by the name 23 of Walker T Thompson? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Who is he? 174 175 176 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 A. He was a department head, phenolic 2 molding materials in Bound Brook. I don't -- I 3 think he -- I'm not, you know, there were a number 4 of different department heads so he was one of them. 5 Q. And Dr. C.S. McKinley, do you know 6 who he is? 7 A. That was the medical, the physician. 8 Q. That's the guy you told me about 9 before? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. Do you recall thatUnion 12 Carbide actually prepared a hand-out for the 13 employees at the Bound Brook plant after 1970 14 related to the hazards of asbestos? 15 A. I don't recall seeing it. 16 Q. It was never provided to you? 17 A. I wouldn't say never, I just don't 18 recall it. It was given to the employees, I don't 19 see why I wouldn't have been sent a copy. 20 Q. Were you aware of that Union Carbide 21 was conducting hygiene surveys for asbestos at the 22 Bound Brook plant in the 1960s? 23 A. What do you mean "hygiene surveys"? 24 Q. To test what the asbestos levels were 25 in the air. 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 A. No, I was not aware of that. 2 Q. That was not something that was 3 shared with you? 4 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 5 the question. 6 A. I don't remember seeing -- I don't 7 remember any documents at this stage. If it was 8 done, if it was communicated to me, I don't remember 9 it. 10 Q. You know who William Bradley is? 11 A. Bradley? No, that didn't ring a 12 bell. 13 Q. Do you know anything about 14 Mr. Bradley advising Union Carbide that they would 15 likely get citations from OSHA if OSHA ever showed 16 up at the plant? 17 A. Never heard of that. 18 Q. Mr. Martino, it's usually a good 19 thing at a deposition when the lawyer starts 20 flipping through his notes to see if he caught 21 everything, so what I'm going to do is give you a 22 five-minute break, look through my notes and see if 23 we can wrap it up. 24 A. Okay. I could use one. 25 (A recess is taken.) 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 2 Q. I have a few more questions. That's 3 the good news. 4 A. Thank you. 5 Q. I may have a lot more questions. 6 MR. EDELL: These are going to be the 7 worse questions, though. 8 MR. PLACITELLA: No, not really. 9 MR. EDELL: Don't believe him. 10 Q. The statement in the EPA submission, 11 "most Bakelite did not contain asbestos," if that 12 was a complete statement, you would have to say if 13 evaluated on poundage alone? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. Or thenextstatement says, 16 "At its peak, asbestos-containing Bakelite comprised 17 40 percent of the Bakelite produced by Union 18 Carbide," and again to be entirely accurate, it had 19 to say by poundage alone; true? 20 A. True. 21 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 22 the question. 23 Q. To beentirely accurate itshould 24 have also said that 60 percent of our product line 25 for phenolic molding compounds contained asbestos? 177 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 2 the question. 3 Q. True? 4 MR. EDELL: How would he know what 5 we're asking him for? 6 A. Yeah, to me the number based on 7 formulations is meaningless. You can sell 1,000 8 pounds of a formulation and 100,000 pounds of 9 another formulation and you'll get an equal weight 10 when you can count them by formulation. 11 Q. Well, that might be true but here you 12 list it formulations? 13 A. Yeah. 14 Q. But you only listed 15 of the 50 of 15 the product formulations that you actually sold, 16 right? 17 A. If they wanted the formulations, 18 fine. I would think that the risk is based on the 19 amount of material that's out there, not on the 20 number of -- numbers you have out there. 21 Q. But when you submittedthe document 22 to the EPA, you only listed 17of the actual 52 23 asbestos-containing phenolic mound compounds that 24 you sold over the years? 25 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 178 179 180 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 the question. 2 Q. True? 3 MR. EDELL: Is his name on that? Can 4 you show him the document? You said when he 5 submitted it. 6 Q. When Union Carbide submitted it. 7 When Union Carbide submitted the document to the 8 EPA, it only listed 17 of the actual 52 formulations 9 for asbestos-containing phenolic molding compound; 10 true? 11 MR. EDELL: Do you need to see the 12 document or can you answer? 13 A. I saw that document before. 14 Q. Well,why don't we make sure. 15 MR. EDELL: Let's make sure without 16 guessing. 17 Q. Absolutely. I don't want to be 18 unfair to you, so let's have you take a look at it. 19 Count the number of formulations on page four and 20 five that Union Carbide gave to the EPA. 21 MR. EDELL: Why don't you give him 22 the entire document. 23 MR. PLACITELLA: That's the part that 24 pertains to Bakelite. 25 MR. EDELL: You might as well start 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 reading this and then we'll wait until we get the 2 rest of it. Thanks. 3 A. What was your count? Sixteen? 4 Q. Seventeen. 5 A. Yes, there'sanother one inthe back. 6 Well, I have to agree that 17 -7 Q. So there's 17 formulas that you gave 8 to the, Union Carbide gave to the EPA, correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Now, how many in the answers to the 11 interrogatories that I got this morning? Can you 12 count the numbers? 13 MR. EDELL: Whatever it is, it is. 14 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, I want to make 15 sure the record is clear. We don't have much left 16 so let's make sure we're right. 17 A. 82, I get. 18 Q. How many did you get? 19 A. 82. What did you get? 20 Q. I got less so - 21 A. Well, I better check it again. 22 Q. Check it again. 23 A. 82. 24 Q. 82? 25 A. Yeah. 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 Q. So would you agree with me that of 2 the 82 different formulas for asbestos-containing 3 phenolic molding compound sold by Union Carbide over 4 the years, only 17 were provided to the EPA? 5 MR. EDELL: I'm going to object to 6 the form of the question. You don'twant to hear 7 the basis of it, do you? 8 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, he can answer 9 and then you can give it to me. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. All right. Why don't we do it 12 this way: I have completed my exam for now. Some 13 of the other lawyers may have questions, I don't 14 know. I may have to ask you a few more questions 15 depending on what goes on, but I'll try to keep to 16 my promise, which is help you beat the traffic 17 although I think you go the opposite way. 18 Anybody else have questions? 19 MR. EDELL: I have a couple. Okay. 20 CROSS-EXAMINATION 21 BY MR. EDELL: 22 Q. Were you charged with the 23 responsibility for industrial hygieneat the Bound 24 Brook facility? 25 A. No. 181 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 Q. Was there someone who was responsible 2 for industrial hygiene? 3 A. Could you define what you mean by 4 "industrial hygiene"? 5 MR. PLACITELLA: Objection to the 6 form of the question. 7 MR. EDELL: Okay. 8 MR. PLACITELLA: That was a joke. 9 Q. Addressing the safety environment of 10 the facility -11 A. Yes. 12 Q. -- was there more than one person who 13 was involved in that? 14 A. You mean besides who was the manager? 15 Q. I don't know. How many people were 16 responsible for that? Who was responsible for that? 17 A. Well, there was a safety department 18 and that had various functions, you know. You know, 19 mechanical safety as well as making sure that we met 20 all regulations. I don't know how many people we 21 had in that. 22 Q. For example, were you responsible for 23 maintaining OSHA standards in the facility? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Who was? 182 183 184 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 A. The department head in manufacturing 2 was responsible for seeing to it that they met OSHA 3 responsibilities there. 4 Q. Do you know what communications that 5 individual received over the years from Union 6 Carbide on the subject of industrial hygiene? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Do you know what information that 9 person received over the years regarding the 10 potential health hazards associated with any of the 11 products that were used at the Bound Brook 12 facility? 13 A. No. 14 Q. You're not an expert onasbestos, 15 are you? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Certainlyyou didn't work for the 18 Union Carbide division that dealt with Caladria, 19 correct? 20 MR. PLACITELLA: Objection; leading. 21 A. That dealt with? 22 Q. Caladria. 23 A. Caladria, no. 24 Q. Okay. Now, you said that you tested 25 the pellets. When was that again? 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bi 1 A. The pelleted Caladria? 2 Q. Yeah. 3 A. I think it was 1972 or '73. I think, 4 yeah, it was either '72 or '73. 5 Q. Were you aware that in 1972 all bags 6 of Caladria maintained the OSHA required health 7 hazards relating to asbestos? 8 MR. PLACITELLA: Objection; leading. 9 A. I wasn't aware of that. 10 Q. Did you take a look at any the bags 11 in that facility to see if that contained that 12 warning? 13 A. We only would have gotten a small 14 sample so that wasn't something that I would have 15 gone out of my way to look at. 16 Q. Did you look at any of the bags? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Now, Mr. Placitella showed you a 19 letter from Dr. Dernehl, correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And at prior depositions you've seen 22 toxicological reports by Dr. Dernehl, correct? 23 MR. PLACITELLA: Objection; leading 24 again. It's your witness. 25 MR. EDELL: It's not my witness, it's 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 your witness. 2 MR. PLACITELLA: It's your corporate 3 representative. 4 A. From Dr. Dernehl? 5 Q. Yes. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And those toxicological reports 8 accompanied sales of Caladria fiber; is that 9 correct? 10 MR. PLACITELLA: Objection; leading. 11 A. I don't recall. 12 Q. You don't know one way or the other? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Okay. Were you responsible for 15 purchasing asbestos? 16 A. No. 17 MR. EDELL: Where is that Sayers 18 report? Thanks. Let me just grab my notes. Okay. 19 BY MR. EDELL: 20 Q. Can you read to us from this report 21 from Mr. Sayers over in England which Mr. Placitella 22 read from, the sentence that starts at 6.1.1. 23 A. The whole paragraph? 24 Q. Read the first sentence. 25 A. Okay. "There seems to be little 185 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 doubt that the toxic effects of our Coalinga product 2 are still largely unknown." 3 Q. Coalinga refers to what, sir? 4 A. Caladria asbestos. 5 Q. So this report doesn't relate to 6 Caladria or Coalinga? 7 A. Caladria. 8 Q. Right. To the best of your 9 understanding? 10 A. Well, it was my understanding that 11 Coalinga and Caladria asbestoses are the same. 12 Q. What I'm saying to you is it says 13 here -14 A. Yeah. 15 Q. -- "There seems little doubt that the 16 toxic effects of our Coalinga -17 A. Coalinga product. 18 Q. -- product are still largely 19 unknown." Is that correct? 20 MR. PLACITELLA: Objection to the 21 form of the question. 22 MR. EDELL: Is that what it says? 23 MR. PLACITELLA: Leading. 24 Q. Is there anything in that report that 25 suggests that Caladria is harmful? 186 187 188 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 A. Based on that last statement it 2 implies that it was not. It was unknown. 3 MR. EDELL: I have no further 4 questions. 5 MR. PLACITELLA: I have a few. 6 REDIRECT-EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 8 Q. First of all, sir, you were asked 9 whether you were an expert, but when there was a 10 violation of the OSHA limits in the plant, you were 11 notified, right? 12 A. No. 13 Q. You weren't notified? 14 A. No. 15 MR. PLACITELLA: Can you mark this 16 next, please. 17 (Documents dated 6/29/72, marked 18 Exhibit P-9 for Identification.) 19 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 20 the question. 21 Q. All right.I'll show youwhat's been 22 marked P-9 for identification. Show it to your 23 attorney first. 24 A. Okay. 25 MR. EDELL: Okay. Is there a 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 question? 2 MR. PLACITELLA: Yeah. 3 Q. Do you see that document? 4 A. Yes, yes. 5 Q. Can I have it back for a second. You 6 were copied on this document, sir? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Does the document say "In 1972 the 9 present facilities are in gross violation of present 10 OSHA limits on asbestos nuisance dust and asbestos 11 fiber contamination"? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Okay. Does that refresh your memory 14 as to whether you were told about violations of OSHA 15 in the plant? 16 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 17 the question. You're talking about whether on a 18 routine basis he was - 19 MR. PLACITELLA: I'm just asking him 20 a question. Object to the form. There. You 21 objected to the form. 22 A. There was no requirement that I be 23 notified of every measurement they made in the 24 plant. 25 Q. But you were notified? 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 A. But I was copied on correspondence of 2 when there were problems that they felt that I 3 should be kept informed of. 4 Q. Including when you violated OSHA? 5 A. In this particular case, Roy felt I 6 should know. 7 Q. And in addition, not only were you 8 kept apprized of what went on when there were OSHA 9 violations in the plant, it was your job to 10 interface with the customers about the impact of the 11 OSHA regulations, correct? 12 A. It was my job -- my job was an R&D 13 job. It wasn't my responsibility to communicate 14 OSHA requirements to the customer, that was the 15 sales department's responsibility. 16 Q. I want to show you again P-8 for 17 identification and I want you to look at the last 18 highlighted line on this document. Read it into the 19 record. Tell me what it says. 20 MR. EDELL: On the first page? 21 MR. PLACITELLA: The last page. 22 A. Oh, on the last page. 23 A. Yes. "C. F. Martino will define the 24 impact of the OSHA regulations on our customers." 25 Q. So that was part of your job 189 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 according to this document? 2 A. No, it wasn't. What this refers to 3 is that test I described to you about pouring bags 4 of product into drums under the worst possible 5 conditions. 6 Q. Right. And you communicated those 7 results of those tests to your customers? 8 A. I think that's what started the 9 labeling program where we told our customers what 10 products contained asbestos and what products did 11 not contain asbestos, and beyond the labeling I 12 don't know what else was communicated to the 13 customer by the salespeople. They had to be told 14 why we're labeling it. 15 Q. Well, did you tell them what the 16 results of the tests were that you were, that you 17 ran that you said was your responsibility to run? 18 A. That was communicated internally to 19 all of the people in the management group, and what 20 the sales department did with those tests results, 21 what they told the customer, I don't know other than 22 we're putting, you know. 23 Q. Well, don't you think they had the 24 right to know what the results of the tests were? 25 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 190 191 192 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 the question. 2 Q. Your customers? 3 A. Well, if I were the customer I would 4 say why are you doing this? I would want an answer. 5 Q. But you don't know as you sit here 6 today whether the actual test results were ever 7 communicated to the customers? 8 A. The actual test results, I don't 9 know. 10 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Edell showed 11 you, had asked you to read one line out of the 12 Sayers report; do you remember that? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. See, he read you the section under 15 Moral Issues. Do you see that? 16 MR. EDELL: Under the section 17 described as Discussion, and then there's a 18 subsection. 19 Q. See where it says "Moral Issues"? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And then he had you read the very 22 first line only? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Correct? 25 A. Yes. 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bi 1 Q. Can you skip down to the next 2 paragraph and read for the jury - 3 MR. EDELL: Is there a jury here? 4 MR. PLACITELLA: There will be when 5 they see this transcript. 6 Q. Can you read for the jury what the 7 next paragraph says? 8 A. "It therefore seems that on the basis 9 of the present evidence we're not entitled under any 10 circumstances to state that our material is not a 11 health hazard." 12 Q. Is there some reason why Mr. Edell 13 didn't ask you to read that? 14 MR. EDELL: No. 15 A. I don't know. 16 MR. EDELL: There's no reason, I'm 17 sure you'll have the whole document. Any reason why 18 you didn't ask him to read the whole document? 19 Q. Can you finish reading the paragraph 20 please where it says, "What is more"? 21 A. Which paragraph is that? 22 Q. Same paragraph you read the first 23 sentence. 24 A. Oh. "What is more, if it is believed 25 that a potential customer would use our material 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 dangerously and he's unaware of the toxicity 2 question then it must surely be our duty to caution 3 him and point out means whereby he can hold the 4 asbestos airflow concentration to a minimum." 5 Q. But at this point in time not even 6 you were told by Union Carbide; true? 7 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 8 the question. 9 Q. About the dangers of asbestos and 10 cancer in 1967? 11 A. It points out "means whereby he can 12 hold the asbestos airflow concentration to a 13 minimum." That regards as to what steps he can take 14 to minimize his exposure, not -- I mean at that 15 point it was already established that asbestos could 16 be a hazard. 17 Q. In 1967? 18 A. In '67? 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. Oh, by our affiliate in England, yes. 21 Q. But that wasn't communicated to you, 22 sir, was it? 23 A. Yeah, no, no. 24 Q. Nor was it communicated to any of 25 your co-workers to your knowledge? 193 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 A. That's right, I didn't have it. I'm 2 not aware of anyone else that might have had it. 3 Q. So even though this document says 4 it's Union Carbide's moralresponsibility to give 5 you the information, itwasn't; true? 6 MR. EDELL: Is that what it says? To 7 give it to whom? 8 A. It says to give it to the -- their 9 customers which would be the British customers, not 10 our customers. 11 Q. Well, doesn't it count you when you 12 buy it? 13 A. Well, I wasn't aware of this so I 14 mean what was I going to communicate? 15 Q. It wasn't told to you, was it? 16 A. No, not - 17 Q. So did Union Carbide fulfill its 18 moral responsibility to you in 1967 when it did not 19 tell you about asbestos and cancer in 1967? 20 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 21 the question. You're talking apples and oranges. 22 MR. PLACITELLA: No, I'm not. I'm 23 reading from the very page you showed him. 24 MR. EDELL: This is by a gentleman 25 who is selling raw fiber. 194 195 196 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo In Bi. 1 MR. PLACITELLA: Excuse me. 2 MR. EDELL: Let me finish. He's 3 selling raw fiber and it's to its customers and in 4 1968 right on the heels of this - 5 MR. PLACITELLA: Excuse me. This is 6 absolutely an improper statement by you. 7 MR. EDELL: Okay. 8 MR. PLACITELLA: Save it for your 9 opening. 10 MR. EDELL: Go ahead. 11 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 12 Q. Sir, did Union Carbide fulfill its 13 moral responsibility to you as indicated in this 14 internal correspondence to tell you about asbestos 15 and cancer in 1967 when you were working with raw, 16 around raw asbestos fiber? 17 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 18 the question. That's not what it says. 19 A. I'm not going to pass judgment 20 without knowing why there was a breakdown in 21 communications between Bakelite, Limited and us. 22 I've been in situations where once you know the 23 facts, you can understand what happened, so to just 24 jump in and say, well, they were morally incorrect 25 without knowing all the circumstances, I'm not going 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 to do it. 2 Q. Okay. This wasn't just from Bakelite 3 Limited, this went to the medical director in New 4 York, right? 5 A. Yeah, and I don't know why he didn't 6 communicate with me either and to, you know, make a 7 moral judgment based on his actions, I can't do that 8 either. 9 I don't know how much he knew about 10 my business, I don't know if he knew if we were 11 using asbestos in the lab at the time he wrote any 12 of his documents, so until I have all the facts, 13 I'm not going to pass any moral judgment on 14 anybody. 15 Q. Okay. You don't believe that the 16 medical director at Union Carbide knew you were 17 using asbestos in Bound Brook? 18 A. I don't know. And, you know, I've 19 asked myself why didn't he send me some of this 20 correspondence, but if he was -- Union Carbide is 21 a large organization and the phenolic molding 22 material business is a very small part of it and 23 there's many different divisions and many different 24 departments, and it's not unusual for somebody in 25 one department to not know all the details about 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 what's going on in somebody else's business unless 2 he was invited in to do something. 3 Q. Let's go back. That's a fair 4 statement. Mr. Sayers, he was involved in phenolic 5 molding in the U.K., right? 6 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 7 the question. 8 Q. Correct? 9 A. I don't know who he was. What's 10 his -11 Q. Sir - 12 MR. EDELL: Read the document. 13 Q. Well, I'll go to the next question. 14 Sir - 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. -- is it your understanding that the 17 medical, assistant medical director for Union 18 Carbide had no idea that you're using asbestos in 19 the Bound Brook plant some 30 miles away from where 20 his office was? 21 A. I don't know what he knew. 22 Q. Don't you wish he knew that that was 23 going on? 24 A. But you see, I can also understand if 25 he didn't know. 197 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 Q. Don't you wish that the assistant 2 medical director for Union Carbide would have known 3 that you were working with asbestos in Bound Brook 4 New Jersey? 5 MR. EDELL: I'm going to object to 6 the form of the question. What he wished or didn't 7 wish, come on, Chris. 8 A. I don't know what he knew about our 9 business and I would like to know - 10 Q. Don't you believe that somebody who 11 is the assistant medical director should know 12 whether you are working with a cancer-causing 13 substance in the main plant in the State of New 14 Jersey? 15 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 16 the question. He answered it. This is about the 17 17th way you're trying to - 18 MR. PLACITELLA: No, he didn't. I'm 19 still waiting for the answer. And you're not 20 admitted in this case. Don't say anything. 21 A. Well, I'm still going to give you 22 the same answer, I don't know what he knew and I 23 don't -- and until I do, I'm not going to pass 24 judgment on our medical director. 25 Q. Okay. 198 199 200 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 A. Now, you may think this is unusual, 2 but in the large corporations I've seen 3 miscommunications occur where they miss people on 4 distribution lists and so forth, so I would like to 5 see more facts before I make any commitment to the 6 morality of an individual. 7 And my recollection of our medical 8 director was that he was very well respected and an 9 honest man so I don't think he would have done 10 anything that he felt would be a detriment to the 11 health and safety of any of our people. 12 Q. Did you ever meet him? 13 A. No, no. 14 Q. Did he evervisit Union Carbide, 15 Bound Brook, New Jersey? 16 A. If he did, I didn't see him. I don't 17 even know what he looked like, I only know him by 18 reputation and competence. 19 Q. You were the person who was in charge 20 of the lab that was experimenting with formulas for 21 asbestos-containing molding compounds, correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Yet none of the information that was 24 in the Sayers report was ever communicated to you by 25 anyone at Union Carbide? 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 2 the question. 3 A. It's true. 4 MR. PLACITELLA: That's all the 5 questions I have. 6 MR. EDELL: I have nothing. 7 (The deposition concludes at 2:46 8 p.m.) 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10/1/2008 Martino, Carlo in Bird 1 CERTIFICATE 2 3 I, KENDRA C. SANDERS, a Certified 4 Shorthand Reporter and Registered Professional 5 Reporter and Notary Public of the State of New 6 Jersey, do hereby certify that the foregoing is a 7 true and accurate transcript of the stenographic 8 notes of the deposition of said witness, who was 9 first duly sworn by me, on the date and place 10 hereinbefore set forth. 11 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that I am 12 neither attorney, nor counsel for, nor related to or 13 employed by, any of the parties to the action in 14 which this deposition was taken, and further that I 15 am not a relative or employee of any attorney or 16 counsel employed in this case, nor am I financially 17 interested in this case. 18 19 20 ____________________ Kendra C. Sanders, CSR, RPR 21 Notary Public of the State of New Jersey 22 23 24 My commission 25 expires: 1/9/13 201 202 203