Document gbRGjQVmv0NrGJenJd8GMYDme

1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIEOFNIA 2 EOR THE COUNTY OF BOS ANGELES 3 DEPARTMENT 3 HDN. J. STEPHEN CZULEGER, JUDGE 4 5 ROSLYN DAUBER AND ) JOHN D] COSTANZO, ) 6) PLAINTIFFS, ) 7 ) CASE NO. EC483342 VS. 8 ) ) MONSANTO COMPANY, ET AL., ) 9) DEFENDANTS. ) 10 ) ) 11 12 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 13 TUESDAY, MARCH 22, 2016 14 P.M. SESSION 15 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: 16 EOR PTAINTIFFS: 17 WATERS KRAUS BY: (ARY PAUL, ESQ. 18 222 NORTH SEPULVEDA BOULEVARD SUITE 1900 19 EL SEGUNDO, CALIFORNIA 90245 (310)414-8146 20 MAPMITAGE@WATERSKRAUS. COM 21 ALLEN STEWART, P.C. 22 BY: SCOTT R. FRTFT,TNG, ESQ. 325 NORTH ST. PAUL STREET 2 3 SUITE 4000 EAITAS, TEXAS 72501 24 (214)965-5700 SFRTF.T ,TNG@AT ,T ,ENSTEWART. COM 25 26 (APPEARANOES CONTINUED ON NEXT PACE.) 27 NARK SCHWEITZER, CSR, CRR, RPR OFFICIAL PRO TEM COURT REPORTER 28 LICENSE NO. 10514 213-663-3494 1 MASTER INDEX 2 March 22, 2016, P.M. Session 3 4 CHRONOLOGICAL INDEX OF WITNESSES 5 WITNESSES: 6 ROBERT KALEY, PREVIOUSLY SWORN. 7 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. FRTFT,TNG: REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. UPSHAW: 8 9 10 11 ALPHABETICAL INDEX OF WITNESSES 12 WITNESSES: 13 ROBERT KALEY, PREVIOUSLY SWORN. 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. FRTFT TNG: REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. UPSHAW: 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 PAGE 8 88 PAGE 8 88 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: (CONTINUED) 2 EOR DEFENDANTS: 3 STEFTOE & JOHNSON, LLP BY: DANIEL R. BIAKEY, ESQ. 4 633 WEST FIFTH STREET SUITE 70 5 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA 90071 (213)439-9494 6 DBLAKEY@STEPTOE.COM 7 HUSCH BLACKWELL 8 BY: ADAM E. MILLER, ESQ. ROBYN D. BUCK, ESQ. 9 190 CARONDELET ELAZA SUITE 600 10 ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 63105 (314)480-1847 11 ADAM. MTT ,T ,F,R@Ht TSCHRT ACKWFT ,T.. CCM ROBYN. BUCK@HUSCHB1ACKWEIL. COM 12 13 MCDERMOTT, WILL & EMERY BY: ANTHONY N. UPSHAW, ESQ. 14 333 AVENUE OF THE AMERICAS SUITE 4500 15 MIAMI, EIORIDA 33131-2184 (305)347-6540 16 AUPSHAW@NWE.CCM 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 1 2 PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 3 4 885 5 886 6 887 7 8 9 DEFENDANT'S EXfflBIT 10 11 12 13 14 JOINT EXHIBITS 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 EXHIBITS MARKED RECEIVED WITH- EOR I.D. IN EVD DRAWN 7 81 89 MARKED RECEIVED WITHEOR I.D. IN EVD. DRAWN MARKED RECEIVED WITHEOR I.D. IN EVD. DRAWN Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067788 13 1 CASE NUMBER: BD483342 2 CASE NAME: EAUBER VS. MONSANTO, ETC. 3 IDS ANGELES, CALIEDRNIA TUESDAY, MARCH 22, 2016 4 DEPARTMENT 3 J. STEPHEN CZULEGER, JUDGE 5 REPORTER: NARK SOHWEITZER, CSR 10514 6 TIME: 1:30 P.M. 7 -oOo- 8 THE EDLIDWTNG PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN 9 OPEN COURT OUTSIDE THE PRESEN3E OF THE JURY: 10 11 THE COURT: In the matter of Dauber versus Monsanto, 12 the record will reflect that all counsel are present, and the 13 jurors and alternates are not present. 14 Mr. Frieling? 15 MR. UPSHAW: Your Honor, before we get started with 16 this, can we make sure the camera is turned off? 17 THE COURT: The camera is off. 18 MR. FRIELING: Yes, your Honor. Your Honor, I 19 raised this before the break. As I said, it's a sensitive 20 issue because of privilege. So I don't know if your Honor 21 wants me to get into the contents. 22 THE COURT: I have no idea what you're talking 2 3 about. So you've got to give me some idea. 24 MR. FRIELING: Dr. Kaley testified on multiple 25 occasions this morning that there's no evidence that 26 Monsanto's FCBs ever made it into food from heat transfer 27 systems. 28 THE COURT: Right. 1 about? 2 MR. FRIELING: The document is something they 3 produced to us in discovery and then clawed it back once we 4 put it on our exhibit list years ago, I would think. 5 THE COURT: It's not on our current exhibit list. 6 MR. FRIELING: No, sir. I don't have it anymore. 7 It's been destroyed as far as the copies we have. But I knew 8 what's in it. And I want it back for this purpose. To 9 Impeach this witness on the fact that Monsanto does have a 1 0 record of that. 11 THE COURT: A document from whom towhom? 12 MR. FRIELING: I don't remember. I know -- I 13 believe one of the parties, either to or from, is an attorney. 14 And that's why it was deemed privileged, but honestly, I don't 15 recall. I haven't seen it in some time. 16 THE COURT: Was it ruled on as privileged, or they 17 asserted the privilege, and you said we agree and gave it 18 back? 19 MR. FRIELING: Actually, I don't ranerttoer. I know 2 0 one of those things happened, and we did destroy it frem our 21 records. 2 2 THE COURT: Does it have a Bates number? 2 3 MR. FRIELING: Yes. 2 4 THE COURT: Co you know the Bates number? 25 MR. FRIELING: I don't ranerttoer. 2 6 THE COURT: Co you know it, Ms. Buck? 2 7 MS. BUCK: I do, your Honor. Just to clarify a 2 8 couple of things, I do believe that Dr. Kaley testified today 4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 MR. FRIELING: That is, in fact -- THE COURT: I think he testified more generally that there was no marketing of it for that purpose. But the suggestion was that it was never used for it. MR. FRIELING: Well, if I may, he did testify that ECB fluid was used in heat transfer systems in like frying pans. Not to fry the food, but to heat -- THE COURT: I thought you were talking about the packaging. MR. FRIELING: I'm talking about a different issue. THE COURT: Sorry. MR. FRIELING: So to heat the frying oil, they used PCB fluid. And it was marketed extensively for that and sold extensivelyfor that. And he was -- Mr. Upshaw elicited testimony along the lines of, veil, did the FCBs ever get into the food? Is there a record of that? And he said no, that never happened. That's demonstrably false. That's not true. And I know that from communications that they have that list specifically, at least five times, I don't remember hew many, when they know that actually happened in the world. THE COURT: Okay. MR. FRIELING: And that document has been deemed privileged, and I understand that, but I don't think this witness can get on the stand and say something danonstrably false and me not have the opportunity to cross-examine him with that document. THE COURT: What is the document they are talking 1 that, to the best of his knowledge, there were no incidents 2 where food might have come in contact with contaminated oil or 3 sold commercially and consumed. And he shewed a document that 4 talked about four leakages total. Two did ccme in contact 5 with food. Those were discarded. Two others never came in 6 contact with food. We talked about that. So to the best of 7 his knowledge, that's his understanding. 8 The other thing is I will say for the record, if you 9 want a Bates label, I can give it to you, your Honor. I can I 0 give you a document for in camera review. But it actually was II ruled on by a St. Louis County court. And Mr. Frieling is 12 correct. 13 You've heard about the document repository, and 14 giving plaintiff's counsel full access to the document 15 repository, there are privileged documents in there. 16 THE COURT: What was the privilege that was raised? 17 MS. BUCK: It was both attorney-client and work 1 8 product that was -- we asked them to return them voluntarily. 1 9 They refused. So we did have to file a motion for a 2 0 protective order to claw those back. They opposed it. There 21 was argument on it, and a judge in St. Louis County did rule 2 2 that the document was, in fact, privileged. 2 3 We had provided them a privilege log that even 2 4 identified the document with the clawback and with access to 2 5 all of the documents. So they were ordered to destroy it or 2 6 return all copies. They were told they could not use it. And 2 7 also, in fact, in the Smith case here in L.A. County in 2014, 2 8 Judge Hogue ruled that same document sealed as privileged as Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067789 57 1 well. I think they attempted to use it in the Smith case as 2 well. 3 THE COURT: Was that before the trial started, or 4 was that following a Monsanto witness testifying? 5 MS. BUCK: I believe it was before. I don't have a 6 copy of that. I do have a ccpy of the order from St. Louis. 7 I'm working on getting you a ccpy from Judge Hogue. So I 8 don't knew, as I stand here, one way or another, whether it 9 was before or after any particular witness testified. 10 THE COURT: Okay. First thing's first. What's the ii Bates number so we have at least some record of what we're 12 talking about. 13 KB. BUCK: Sure. The Bates number is STL CO PCB 14 4105087 through -089. 15 THE COURT: So it's a three-page document? 16 KB. BUCK: Correct. And I will verify that it is 17 correspondence between an officer or director within Monsanto 18 to in-house counsel for Monsanto. It is talking about the 19 pending litigation, and so it certainly is privileged. It's 20 keen ruled on as being privileged. 21 THE COURT: And you have a ccpy of the document? 22 KB. BUCK: I do have a copy of the document. If I 2 3 may approach, I can give it to you now. 24 THE COURT: Well, first of all, you need to have 25 a -- veil, we'll either mark it as an exhibit or file it as a 26 marking under seal so there is some record. We can do that as 27 housekeeping later. 28 The tep page of the memo dated January 25, 1972, to 1 of the attorney-client and work product privilege and noting 2 that it's talking about litigation. 3 THE COURT: You're going to have to lay some 4 foundation for the privilege. If not, this would appear to be 5 discoverable, without the foundation, the privilege. So I 6 would need something more than what I have. And I don't have 7 it now. So work on getting me that, and I will look at it. 8 MR. FRIELING: Thank you, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: I'll give this to the clerk. 10 MR. FRIELING: If I may make a suggestion, if I have u the Bates numbers, I'm not sure if you -- 12 THE COURT: Oh, I'm talking about for clerk work. 13 how the clerk handles it. Sealed documents are handled 14 differently than other types. 15 MR. FRIELING: Yes, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: I will order the Monsanto document dated 17 February 22nd, 1972, which is three pages, ordered sealed 18 awaiting additional information from Monsanto that establishes 19 whether it is privileged or not. Okay? 20 MS. BUCK: Thank you, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: All right. Put them in. 22 Mr. Frieling, you have another slide presentation? 2 3 MR. FRIELING: Yes, your Honor. I have a copy for 24 you as veil. 25 THE COURT: It will be marked as 885. 26 (Court's Exhibit 885 for identification.) 27 THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD 28 IN OPEN COURT IN THE PFESENCE OF THE JURY: 68 1 R.A. Stohr. 2 KB. BUCK: He was in-house counsel for Monsanto. 3 THE COURT: From D.R. Pogue? 4 KB. BUCK: Yes. 5 THE COURT: Who is that? 6 KB. BUCK: As I sit here, I cannot tell you. He is 7 not an attorney, but he had some type of in-house management 8 position. 9 THE COURT: All right. It dees suggest that on five 10 occasions there was some type of leakage of Therminol. But I 11 assume the lawyer, Mr. Stohr, didn't go out and conduct an 12 investigation. Wouldn't there be back-up documents for these 13 that would be non-privileged? 14 KB. BUCK: What was ordered was there was pending 15 litigation at the time. So what Mr. Stohr ordered was an 16 investigation into incidents of this nature. And so this is 17 being done at his request and his instruction for purposes of 18 litigation. 19 THE COURT: And how do we knew that? 20 KB. BUCK: We know that from a variety of other 21 documents that I don't necessarily have here. I just -- since 22 Mr. Frieling told us they were going to raise this, I went and 2 3 pulled apart the briefing from St. Louis and the order which I 24 do have. Well, actually, I can give you -- I'm sorry. I can 25 give you pages from a privilege log which would -- 26 THE COURT: Well, that would just tell me it is 27 privileged. 28 KB. BUCK: Correct. But it would go to the nature 1 2 THE COURT: All right. In the case of Dauber versus 3 Monsanto, the record will reflect all counsel are present. 4 All jurors and alternates are present. 5 I was going to apologize for starting late. We had 6 some legal stuff that we had to do, but I see a couple of our 7 jurors are late. So I'm going to blame thorn. 8 You may cross-examine, Mr. Frieling. 9 10 RCBERT KALEY, PREVIOUSLY SWCFN. 11 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION 13 BY MR. FRTFT,TNG: 14 Q. Good afternoon. Dr. Kaley. 15 Good afternoon, everybody. 16 Dr. Kaley, we've done this before. Am I correct 17 about that? 18 A. We have. 19 Q. We know each other; is that right? 20 A. We do know each other. 21 Q. We know each other through other legal 22 proceedings and seeing each other at things like depositions. 2 3 Am I right about that? 24 A. Yes, you are. 25 Q. And you are here speaking on behalf of 26 Monsanto; is that right? 27 A. That's my understanding, yes. 28 Q. Okay. You've done that before, true? Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067790 9 11 1 A. True. 2 Q. And this question I have. Dees Monsanto agree 3 that this is a big and important case? 4 A. I believe so, yes. 5 Q. Yes. And because of that. Dr. Kaley, you spent 6 a considerable amount of time on this case. Is that fair for 7 me to say? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. All right. You've met with Monsanto's lawyers 10 on this case, true? ii A. I have. 12 Q. And I don't want to know what you talked about. 13 but you've met with them, true? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Different lawyers, true? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And I think, and I could have heard this wrong. 18 but I want to make sure I understood. 19 Part of your job is to help Monsanto's lawyers 20 understand science. Did I get that right? Is that fair? 21 A. That's part of my job, yes. 22 Q. And in doing so, you attend, for instance, the 2 3 depositions of plaintiff experts; is that right? 24 A. Yes, I have done that, yes. 25 Q. And we've seen each other in that context? 26 A. We have. 27 Q. In fact, you were at my office not too long 28 ago, when Dr. Aronson, the Working Group mettber, the 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And there's other Monsanto attorneys here? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Back in the back here, do you know this person 5 back here? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Who's that person? 8 A. His name is Mr. Dye. 9 Q. And that's one of Monsanto's lawyers? 10 A. Yes. ii Q. And over here, are these Monsanto lawyers here? 12 A. One of thorn is. 13 Q. How about in the comer back here? 14 A. I believe so, yes. 15 Q. That's another Monsanto lawyer? 16 A. I believe so. 17 Q. Do you know his name? 18 A. I'm orbarrassed to say. I do know his name. 19 but I'm embarrassed to say I can't think of it right now. 20 Q. And then the client is here; is that right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And that's a lawyer, too, right? 2 3 A. Yes, she is. 24 Q. Okay. So we've got about seven Monsanto 25 lawyers in the room, give or take? 26 A. Give or take, yes. 27 Q. Big and important case, right? 28 A. It is. 10 12 1 qoidemiologist gave her deposition, right? 2 A. That's correct, yes. 3 Q. And I just want to make sure, but you're not an 4 qoidemiologist right? 5 A. I am not. 6 Q. Okay. But nonetheless, you were at this expert 7 qoidemiologist s deposition? 8 A. I was, yes. 9 Q. You were also at, if memory serves -- and I'd 10 like to think : still got it -- you were also at Dr. Levy's 11 deposition in Boston not long ago. Am I right about that? 12 A. I have attended a Dr. Levy's deposition. It 13 was quite a while ago that I was at one. It's been several 14 years, I believe. 15 Q. Okay. Then I'm wrong. That was the first 16 time. But nonetheless, you're not a physician like Dr. Levy? 17 A. That's definitely correct, yes. 18 Q. Okay. But you're there to help attorneys. 19 right? 20 A. I'm there to listen and help attorneys, if 21 appropriate, yes. 22 Q. If appropriate. And you've talked to 2 3 attorneys, and we've got -- we had three attorneys here. We 24 had Mr. Upshaw I know you've talked to Mr. Upshaw. And 25 Mr. Miller, and we'll get to Mr. Miller. 26 Is that right? You've talked to thou? 27 A. Certainly. 28 Q. And Ms. Buck, yes? 1 Q. Now, with that said, I want to make sure I 2 understand something. I listened to your direct testimony. 3 and I want to make sure that I understand that it was 4 Monsanto's -- Monsanto always had the responsibility for the 5 chanical called FCBs, right? 6 A. Well, they had most of the responsibility as a 7 manufacturer, sure. 8 Q. And they were the sole manufacturer, right? 9 A. For all practical purposes, yes. 10 Q. And I should have qualified that. In the 11 United States right? 12 A. For all practical purposes, yes. 13 Q. And it was always Monsanto's responsibility to 14 know the long- term dangers of FCBs, true? 15 A. Within the concepts that were used in the years 16 that they were making PCBs, yes. 17 Q. And Monsanto, sir, had the responsibility to 18 know about its product and how to protect people from the 19 dangers of its product. Am I right about that? 20 A. Yes, that's why much of that testing was done. 21 yes. 22 Q. But you'll agree, sir, that Monsanto did no 2 3 long term testing in the 1930's, correct? 24 A. No two-year tests, yes. 25 Q. No long-term testing in the 1940's, correct? 26 A. That's correct. No two-year tests. 27 Q. Nor in the 1950's, correct? 28 A. That's correct. Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067791 13 15 1 Q. All the way up to 1968. Did I get that right? 2 A. Correct, for a two-year test. 3 Q. They started long-term testing in 1968, 4 correct? 5 A. That's correct, yes. 6 Q. And you mentioned this a few times on direct 7 about laws and regulations and things like that, environmental 8 regulations. Co you remettber talking about that? 9 A. Some of that a little, yes. 10 Q. It was general, but you touched on it? ii A. Correct, I did. 12 Q. Monsanto doesn't need a law or regulation to 13 have the responsibility to know the long-term dangers of its 14 product, correct? 15 A. No, I believe they demonstrated that by their 16 actions, that 's correct. 17 Q. I'm just asking. You don't need a law or 18 regulation to have that responsibility to know the long-term 19 dangers of your product, right? 20 A. I believe that's correct, yes. 21 Q. Okay. 22 Can I have the Elmo, please. The Elmo is on. 2 3 All right. 119. I want to talk to you about 24 Exhibit 119. All right. 25 Dr. Kaley, who was Mr. John Hanley? 26 A. He was CEO of Monsanto at one time. 27 Q. When? 28 A. Early 1970's. 1 And at the top here it says: "When Westinghouse opened a 2 large manufacturing plant near Bloomington, Indiana, that 3 community hailed the event as a boost to the area's economy. 4 Today Bloomington residents are pulling up that welcome mat. 5 for nearly 40 miles of nearby river and stream have been 6 posted with signs warning that the fish there are unfit for 7 human consumption. Farmed lands have been poisoned and 8 livestock, as veil as crops, have been contaminated. 9 Westinghouse has been identified by local officials" -- 10 Westinghouse was buying FCBs from Monsanto, right? u A. Yes, they were. 12 Q. And you know this plant in Indiana, right? 13 A. I do. 14 Q. And I think it was a capacitor plant? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. They were making PCB-containing capacitors. 17 right? 18 A. Yes, that's correct. 19 Q. And essentially, the host is asking questions 20 of Monsanto's CEO, right? 21 A. Apparently, yes. 22 Q. And he says -- I just want to read what he 2 3 says. This is Hanley again. This is Monsanto. 24 "In the span of history, it's pretty obvious that 25 American -- pretty obvious that American industry, American 26 society ignored the environment for the better part of 27 200 years. And as a result, we have an environment that's 28 impure, both in terms of water and air and everything." 14 16 1 Q. I'm going to show you P-119. This is -- you've 2 seen this before, correct? 3 A. I believe so, yes. 4 Q. So this is an interview on XMDX radio, correct? 5 MR. UPSHAW: Cfojection, your Honor. Hearsay, the 6 document. 7 THE COURT: Hold on. It says client, Monsanto, 8 which would indicate an agency relationship. I'll see where 9 it's going, subject to subsequent objections. 10 Q. BY MR. FRIELING: Okay. Dr. Kaley, this is -- 11 the date is Decerber 19, 1977, correct? 12 A. That's what the document says, yes. 13 Q. You've seen this document before, right? 14 A. I have, yes. 15 Q. And it's a radio interview between a host and 16 John Hanley, right? 17 A. It's a transcript of an interview, yes. 18 Q. Right. It's a transcript of a radio interview 19 with this host, his name is Hardy, I believe, and John Hanley, 20 who, as it notes here, is Monsanto's chief executive -- 21 right? -- at that time? 22 A. That's what the document says. 2 3 Q. And it's accurate, right? 24 A. It is. 25 Q. You were actually working for Monsanto at that 26 point? 27 A. That's correct. 28 Q. Now, he has seme statements here about FCBs. 1 That's what that says, right? 2 A. That's what it says, yes. 3 Q. This is Hardy saying why was that allowed to 4 happen? Acknowledges Commoner. 5 But I want to focus on Hardy. This is, again. 6 Monsanto's CEO, according to Monsanto, the first signs of 7 potential environmental problems with FCBs turned up in the 8 late 1960's. 9 Pretty accurate to your knowledge? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Now, remember that date. For at that time 12 about a thousand people in Japan became ill from eating rice 13 oil heavily contaminated with Japanese produced FCBs. 14 That's the Yusho incident. Am I right about that? 15 A. You're right. 16 Q. And we've heard about that. And that's when 17 the PCBs got into the frying oil and people ate rice that was 18 contaminated with FCBs and other chemicals and got sick. 19 right? 20 A. Well, I don't agree with all of that, but there 21 was certainly a rice oil contamination. People consumed the 22 rice oil, and many of then got sick, yes. 2 3 Q. And that was a heat transfer unit; is that 24 right? 25 A. Yes, it was. 26 Q. That you explained earlier. And seme of the 27 FCBs in the heating fluid got into the cooking oil? 28 A. FCBs and other things, yes. Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067792 17 19 1 Q. All right. At that time about a thousand 2 people in Japan became ill from eating rice oil heavily 3 contaminated with Japanese-produced FCBs. That happened after 4 the undetected equipment leak allowed the chemical to spill 5 into the oil. About that same time, a Swedish biologist 6 identified FCBs in the bodies of fish. 7 Now, that's talking about Jensen. It's not entirely 8 accurate, right? Because that happened in 1966, right? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. And it wasn't fish, right? ii A. Well, it was fish, among other things. I 12 believe we did analyze some fish. 13 Q. Following these incidents in 1971, Monsanto 14 made a conscious decision to halt sales of FCBs to all 15 customers excqot those using them in, quote, closed systems. 16 Now, what you were talking about earlier, that's the 17 electrical equipment, correct? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. And even then, they were shipped in special 20 reinforced drums with multi-lingual warning label affixed to 21 each package. Monsanto Chief Hanley says he's proud of the 22 company's record. 2 3 Now, this is Hanley, okay? That was the host. And 24 here's Hanley. This is Monsanto's CEO. "I think Monsanto, 25 and you recall I wasn't here during much of that time, but I 26 think Monsanto conducted themselves in a very responsible 27 manner with regard to FCBs. As scon as they, or the 28 scientific community, determined anything negative about FCBs, 1 saying that. 2 Q. Well, I'm asking you, doctor, couldn't that be 3 a scientific void for PCB -- 4 A. I suppose it could be interpreted as that. 5 Q. Okay. And then further down, this again is the 6 CEO of Monsanto. 7 "It s an unfortunate event because there is no 8 question but what the production of FCBs did harm to the 9 environment. It was done unknowingly, but that doesn't excuse 10 it." u Co you agree with that, doctor? 12 A. I guess basically, sure. 13 Q. Right. "It's unfortunate that it happened. 14 But when I examined the conduct of the company, I'm proud of 15 the way they dealt with limited information." 16 Did I read that right? 17 A. You read it correctly. 18 Q. Okay. And it says: "One answer to avoid the 19 FCB problem again," says Hanley, "is more testing of products 20 before they are marketed." 21 Let s see what the CEO says about this. This is 22 Monsanto's CEO, right, doctor? 2 3 A. Yes. 24 Q. "The guy that's got the responsibility for the 25 safety of our product is Monsanto." 26 You agree with that? 27 A. We have agreed with that, yes. 28 Q. "It is not the FDA." It is not the EPA, right? 18 20 1 the company moved to respond to that and try to protect the 2 environment against the ravages of FCBs." 3 Now, again, this is through the lens of Monsanto's 4 CEO, right? 5 A. He's being quoted as having said that, yes. 6 Q. "Now, it turned out that we didn't know as much 7 as we should. And you can criticize -- the company can be 8 criticized for its scientific voids, but it acted in a very 9 responsible manner based on the information it had." 10 Did I read that right? 11 A. Yes, you did. 12 Q. Co you agree with Monsanto's CEO that Monsanto 13 didn't know as much as it should about FCBs? 14 A. I believe that's fairly accurate in retrospect. 15 yes. 16 Q. Right. And don't you agree, doctor, with 17 Monsanto's CEO that Monsanto can be criticized for its 18 scientific voids with respect to FCBs? 19 A. Well, I'm not sure exactly what scientific 20 voids he's talking about. But, I mean, obviously, people have 21 criticized Monsanto. So it happened. 22 Q. So do you agree with him along those lines? 2 3 A. Not totally, no, I don't. I think they were 24 doing what they thought was appropriate at the time. 25 Q. Couldn't a scientific void in this context. 26 Dr. Kaley, be the lack of long-term scientific testing on 27 FCBs? 28 A. I don't knew what he had in mind when he was 1 A. That's what it says. 2 Q. Co you agree with that? 3 A. That's what it says. 4 Q. But you agree with it, right? 5 A. Generally, yes. 6 Q. "We cannot and have no interest in dodging the 7 ultimate responsibility for the safety of our products, our 8 processes, and the eventual disposition of those products." 9 Co you agree with that, doctor? 10 A. In that time frame, that was absolutely 11 correct, yes. 12 Q. "Hew much testing should we do? We should do 13 whatever is necessary to provide assurance that what we're 14 doing is right, and it's just really as simple as that. No 15 one else can set that standard as high as we should set it for 16 ourselves, and that's the way we conduct our business." 17 Those are the verds of Monsanto's CEO, right? 18 A. Yes, in 1977, that's correct. 19 Q. And you stand by those, right? 20 A. Yes, I do. 21 Q. Okay. Doctor, we covered just a little bit of 22 this. But I want to talk just in general terms. 2 3 You retired from Monsanto in 2003, yes? 24 A. Solutia, yes, but basically Monsanto. 25 MR. UPSHAW: I'm going to object to the slide. It's 26 improper impeachment. 27 THE COURT: Overruled. 28 Q. BY MR. ERTFLTNG: I'm sorry. You said Solutia? Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067793 21 2 3 1 A. Yes, rry official retirement was from Solutia. 2 Q. You retired from Solutia in 2003? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. One point about that is did you know, doctor. 5 were you aware that Dr. David Carpenter -- you know who 6 Dr. Carpenter is? 7 A. I do. 8 Q. Okay. Did you attend his deposition? 9 A. I have attended his depositions. I don't 10 believe I did in this case, no. ii Q. Recently? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. But you knew who David Carpenter is? 14 A. Yes, I do. 15 Q. He' s the gentleman from Neiv York who works at 16 University of Albany? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. He was also on the IARC Working Group? 19 A. He was an invited attendee, yes. 20 Q. Okay. All right. Did you know that Solutia, 21 the company you retired from, actually hired him as a 22 consultant on FCB and health effects? 2 3 A. Yes, I knew that. 24 Q. Okay. So would you agree, doctor, that 25 Dr. Carpenter is well respected with respect to his knowledge 26 and understanding of FCB health effects? 27 A. Within certain circles, yes, he is. 28 Q. All right. In fact, in the circle for the 1 Q. I think that was a broad term. More narrow. 2 you're a chemist? 3 A. I am. 4 Q. But you're a chemist who has an office in a law 5 firm, right? 6 A. I'm a consultant that has an office at the 7 Husch Blackwell law firm, yes. 8 Q. Okay. Are there any other chemists that have 9 an office at the Husch Blackwell law firm? 10 A. I don't know whether there are right now or u not. 12 Q. Have there been in the past? 13 A. I believe so, yes. 14 Q. Okay. Who was that? 15 A. There was a Mr. Krawczyk. I believe it's 16 K-R-A-W-C-Z- Y-K. 17 Q. If it wasn't before, it is now. We'll let him 18 know. And was that an attorney or a chordst? 19 A. A chemist or a technical person of some sort. 20 He was not an attorney. 21 Q. Was that person also helping lawyers in 22 lawsuits? 2 3 A. I believe so. I mean, he was actually an 24 employee of Husch Blackwell. 25 Q. Unlike yourself. 26 A. Right. I am not an employee of Husch 27 Blackwell, that is correct. 28 Q. But you're a scientist, a chemist, who has an 22 24 1 company that you used to work for, right? 2 A. Well, yes. It really wasn't about PCBs as much 3 as it was retiring benefits, but he was clearly retained by 4 their counsel 5 Q. To talk about FCBs and health effects? 6 A. That's what he was there to talk about, yes. 7 Q. All right. You immediately began working as a 8 consultant for Monsanto after you retired, correct? 9 A. That's correct, yes. 10 Q. Since 2003 to now, 90 to 95 percent of time is 11 spent on FCB issues, right? 12 A. Yes, we've agreed to that, yes. 13 Q. You attend depositions of plaintiffs' experts. 14 We've covered that, yes? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Now, doctor, you get paid $16,000 per month for 17 consulting services by Monsanto, true? 18 A. That's correct, yes, I do. 19 Q. You submit a monthly invoice for that, right? 20 A. I do. 21 Q. And you subnit that invoice to a lawyer. 22 Mr. Miller, who we've met, right? 2 3 A. That's who it's addressed to, yes. 24 Q. Okay. And that's for helping defend Monsanto 25 in legal proceedings like this? 26 A. Partially, yes. 27 Q. Now, you're a scientist, true? 28 A. I am. 1 office in a law firm, and they give you a computer to work on. 2 yes? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Co they give you like a chemist's lab or 5 something? 6 A. No, no. No experiments. 7 Q. There's a kitchen, but you're not allowed to -- 8 A. I'm not allowed to cook, right. 9 Q. But you have a law firm email address, right? 10 A. I do. 11 Q. Okay. Now, since you've retired from Solutia 12 and became a consultant in this type of litigation for 13 Monsanto, you've made approximately $2 million? 14 A. I think we've agreed to that in the past, yes. 15 Q. And it's just a -- I mean, it's a function of 16 math? 17 A. Right. Exactly. 18 Q. You can just add it up, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. You began working at Monsanto when it was 21 Monsanto in December of 1973, right? 22 A. That's correct, yes. 2 3 Q. You're not a professional historian, correct? 24 A. I am not. 25 Q. Co not have a degree in public health? 26 A. I do not. 27 Q. Okay. Hold on one second. 28 Next topic, Monsanto and FCBs. Are you with me? Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067794 25 27 1 A. So far. 2 Q. Okay. Now, am I correct, doctor, that Monsanto 3 was the sole producer of ECBs in the United States? 4 A. As I said, for all practical purposes, yes. 5 Q. I think there was -- we went through the 6 monograph, 'which listed out another corrpany, Geneva Industries 7 in the mid-70' 3? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. But it was very small? 10 A. Absolutely. I'm not arguing with that. ii Q. Now, to this end, to this end, in the 1930's. 12 Monsanto had two plants in place. There was one in Anniston, 13 Alabama, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And one in Sauget, Illinois, that were designed 16 to manufacture ECBs, right? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. And just so the jury understands a little bit. 19 Sauget, Illinois, that's essentially across the Mississippi 20 River frou St. Louis? 21 A. It's exactly across the river. 22 Q. It's East St. Louis. 2 3 A. It's south of the town of East St. Louis, but 24 it's in that general metropolitan area. 25 Q. Right. Which brings me to -- doctor, we were 26 talking about the work that you do for Monsanto and the 27 lawyers. But this, I think, and you'll recognize this. This 28 is Exhibit 99. Okay. And we were talking about Monsanto's 1 A. The letter to the editor actually probably says 2 that somewhere. 3 Q. I don't doubt it. I'm just pointing out. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. You performed that function essentially from 6 1992 to 2003. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. All right. 9 A. 1997. 10 Q. You did the same position for Monsanto from ' 92 u to ' 97 ? 12 A. Okay. 13 Q. And then '97 to 2003 is for Solutia. 14 A. Fair enough. 15 Q. That's all I meant. 16 And as the person -- as the director of 17 environmental affairs, one thing that you did is you wrote 18 this letter to the editor in the Anniston Star, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And I believe -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- 21 but it was in response to an editorial in this paper; is that 22 right? 2 3 A. I don't remember whether it was an editorial or 24 a news story. I don't really remember which. But it says 25 opinion piece. It must have been an editorial or an Cp-Ed, 26 yes. 27 Q. And that's not Important, really. My point was 28 simply that you were -- I'm going to start that question over. 26 28 1 plant in Anniston. 2 This is a -- I think it's a letter to the editor; is 3 that correct? 4 A. Yes, it is. 5 Q. Okay. And the Anniston Star here, that's a 6 number, yes? 7 A. Yes, it is. 8 Q. In Anniston, Alabama? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. Okay. And oh, that's you, yes? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Robert G. Kaley II. That's you. The date is 13 March 30, 2001 correct? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. Okay. That's when you were still working for 16 Monsanto or Solutia? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. I'm not sure which one at the time, but either 19 way, you weren t retired yet, I guess, is what I should say? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. And I remember you put up on your slide here. 22 this is Exhibit 882. This is from this morning, the Power 2 3 Point. You were director of environmental affairs for Solutia 24 during this period of time, correct? 25 A. Correct. 26 Q. That's what you retired as, right? 27 A. The letter probably says that somewhere. 28 Q. Sorry? 1 You sat down -- well, first of all, did you write 2 this, or did somebody else write it? 3 A. I wrote it. 4 Q. You sat down and wrote this response in your 5 position as director of environmental affairs, right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Okay. This was part of your job? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And when we were talking earlier -- when you 10 were talking earlier on direct, you said oh, we were dealing 11 with legacy chordcals, I think, is what you termed them? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And that's -- certainly ECBs are what was 14 termed legacy chemicals, right? 15 A. That' s one of the things they were described 16 as, yes. 17 Q. Because by legacy, you mean we don't make thorn 18 anymore? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. But there could still be problems associated 21 with thorn? 22 A. There are issues, certainly. 2 3 Q. Certainly true with ECBs, right? 24 A. There were, yes. 25 Q. And what we have is you responding here, and I 26 think what you said is that the editorial that was printed in 27 February presents a onesided and misleading perspective on 28 the potential adverse human health effects of ECBs, right? Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067795 29 31 1 That's what you write? 2 A. Apparently, yes. 3 Q. Well, do you remember? 4 A. Do I remember exactly writing those words? No. 5 Co I believe that that's what I wrote? Yes. 6 Q. Okay. It was a bad question. I just want to 7 make sure that you do remember submitting souething to this 8 paper. 9 A. Absolutely, yes. 10 Q. All right. And I understand you don't have it ii memorized. I'm not asking that. 12 THE COURT: It's his article. Let's move on. 13 MR. ERIELING: All right. 14 Q. "Your readers deserve and depend on your paper 15 to provide a fair and balanced presentation of issues of 16 importance to the community." That's what it says, yes? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. "The Anniston cormunity is appropriately 19 interested in and carefully watching matters involving PCBs." 20 They were interested in FCBs, right? 21 A. They were. 22 Q. Okay. "It is vital that these issues be 2 3 handled properly and sensibly. " 24 And that's what you write, correct? 25 A. Yes. 26 Q. Okay. I want to go to the second page. But at 27 the top, this is, "Meyers describes as striking a 1997 article 28 reporting for the first time an association between FCB levels 1 responsibility to assess epidemiology studies? 2 A. I don't know what you mean. I mean, I do read 3 epidemiology studies and make judgments about them on my own 4 personal opinion. If that's what you mean, I do that. 5 Q. I do, too, right? 6 A. Right. 7 Q. And I guess my question is have you been in 8 like an academic setting, something like that where you were 9 teaching about epidemiology? 10 A. No. u Q. Okay. Co you teach -- when you were working 12 for Monsanto or Solutia, did you teach qoidemiology to the 13 other employees? 14 A. Not officially, no. 15 Q. Ml right. But you did write this letter about 16 epidemiology to the newspaper, right? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. And then you talk about worker studies. Am I 19 right about that? For example, the most recent and most 20 thorough study of FCB-exposed workers, that's a description 21 about worker studies, right? 22 A. Correct. 2 3 Q. And so if this is 2003, that's 13 years. And 24 so 13 years ago, Monsanto was talking about worker studies and 25 lymphomas, right? 26 A. In response to that editorial, yes. 27 Q. Okay. And it says, again, it says: "Lack of 28 consistent findings with respect to occupational PCB exposure 3 0 32 1 in blood serum and the risk of non-Hodgkin's lymphoma." 2 That's what you write? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And that's referencing, I think, the Rothman 5 article that we've been discussing here? 6 A. Yes. In 1997, that would be correct, yes. 7 Q. And you say: "But what do the authors of the 8 study say? They describe their study as 9 hypothesis-generating," which you often did back in 1997, 10 right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Which means the study raised a question worthy 13 of further investigation. And tell me if you don't know or 14 I'm getting outside your bounds, but it's true, is it not. 15 that there has keen further investigation on that issue up to 16 now? 17 A. Certainly, yes. 18 Q. They go on to note: "The results need to be 19 repeated and that other potential causes need to be examined." 20 Finally, they state: "Moreover, the inconsistency between our 21 findings and those from studies of PCB exposed occupational 22 cohorts need to be explained." 2 3 My first question to you is do you publish 24 qoidemiology studies? 25 A. Co I personally publish epidemiology studies? 26 Q. Correct. 27 A. No. 28 Q. Have you been in a job where it was your 1 and mortality in studies conducted to date would suggest a 2 lack of an association." 3 That's what you wrote back in -- 4 A. Well, there's a quote missing. That's actually 5 a quote from the study that I was referring to. 6 Q. Well, this is not a quote, the lack? 7 A. Yes, it is. I'm sorry. There's an ending 8 quotation mark missing, but that's quoted from the study. 9 Q. Okay. And that's what Monsanto was saying back 10 in 2003, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And that was Monsanto's position back in 2003, 13 right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. And you will agree with this, that 16 there's been a mountain more research done since 2003. 17 A. Well, there have been other studies published. 18 yes. 19 Q. And, doctor, you're aware that the monograph 20 has keen published? 21 A. I am. 22 Q. By IARC. We know that. And just let me ask 2 3 you, as Monsanto, has Monsanto taken a position new that PCBs 24 do cause cancer in humans? 25 A. I don't know what their official position is as 26 I sit here. 27 Q. Okay. You are here -- 28 A. I would say that they do not necessarily accqot Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067796 33 35 1 that position. 2 Q. Are you here on behalf of Monsanto? 3 A. I would say that' s more rry personal opinion 4 than Monsanto speaking right now. I've not talked to anybody 5 at the company to confirm what rry personal opinion is. 6 Q. Who would you talk to at the company? 7 A. I guess their epidemiologist or someone. I 8 don't knew. I've not considered that. 9 Q. Okay. Well, let me ask. So I'm interested to 10 know if Monsanto believes now that ECBs cause cancer in ii people -- 12 A. I would say -- 13 Q. I'm not done with rry question. That was the 14 first part. 15 A. I'm sorry. 16 Q. It will be worth it. Who by name should I ask 17 to talk to about that issue? 18 MR. UPSFAW: Your Honor, I'm going to object to the 19 relevancy. 20 THE COURT: Sustained. 21 Q. BY MR. FRIELING: Okay. So, doctor, has 22 Monsanto the company taken a position to your knowledge on 2 3 whether ECBs cause non-Hodgkin lymphoma? 24 MR. UPSFAW: Same objection. It's not clear if he's 25 talking about Monsanto Chemical Company, which we've been 26 talking about here or -- 27 THE COURT: Refocus. 28 MR. FRIELING: Yes, your Honor. 1 But I basically agree with that. 2 Q. Chemicals that dissolve in water can be 3 diluted. Diluting a chemical can take away some of its 4 effects, right? 5 A. In cases it can. 6 Q. Can't do that with ECBs, right? 7 A. Not with water, no. 8 Q. Are even though Monsanto knew in the 1930's 9 that ECBs were chemically resistant, biologically resistant. 10 heat resistant, water insoluble, and virtually indestructible. u Monsanto did not have a plan to make sure these chemicals 12 didn't pollute the world in the 1930's, right? 13 A. As far as I know, that's correct, yes. 14 Q. No plan by Monsanto in the 1940's to try and 15 prevent these indestructible chemicals from polluting the 16 world, correct? 17 A. As far as I know, that's correct, yes. 18 Q. Or the 1950's, right? 19 A. As far as I know, that's correct. 20 Q. Or from 1960 to 1967, right? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. All right. I want to set this up a little bit. 2 3 But you talked about the chemical structure of ECBs, correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. On direct examination, right? 26 A. In the indirect examination? 27 Q. On direct examination. 28 A. On direct examination, yes. 34 3 6 1 Q. I'm talking about the company you are here 2 representing today. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. That's who I'm talking about. 5 A. Okay. 6 Q. All right. Who we've been calling Monsanto. 7 That company, dees it have a position, if you knew, on whether 8 ECBs can cause non-Hcdgkin lymphoma in people? 9 A. It's rry understanding the company believes that 10 ECBs do not cause non-Hcdgkin's lyrphorna in people. 11 Q. Okay. What about melanoma? 12 A. I think there's some questions about that. I 13 think again, I'm going to have to revert to rry personal 14 opinion. 15 Q. I don't want that. 16 A. As far as melanoma, I don't knew what position 17 the company has taken. 18 Q. All right. We're back. But anyway, 1930's, we 19 did this. 20 Now, Monsanto knew very early on that many ECBs were 21 virtually indestructible, correct? 22 A. Yes, I would agree the higher chlorinated ones. 2 3 excqot under extraordinary circumstances, are pretty much 24 indestructible. 25 Q. Monsanto knew very early on that ECBs did not 26 dissolve in water, correct? 27 A. Again, I would put a many in there because the 28 lower ones do to a certain extent more than the higher ones. 1 Q. I'm sorry. And you talked about -- and I think 2 over here you talked about -- 3 Your Honor, can I put this over here? 4 THE COURT: As long as it's facing the jury. 5 MR. FRIELING: Yes, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Are you leaving that exhibit up? 7 MR. FRIELING: Yes. 8 THE COURT: I didn't catch the number. 9 MR. FRIELING: 883. May I stand here just for a 10 second and point something out? 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 Q. BY MR. FRIELING: You talked about benzene. 13 A. I assume you're pointing to the single hexagon? 14 Q. And you talked biphenyl, and you talked about 15 DDT, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. IARC says ECBs cause cancer? 18 A. IARC says ECBs cause malignant melanoma, yes. 19 Q. Does the World Health Organization say DDT 20 causes cancer? 21 A. I think it's a Group 2A. I'm not exactly sure. 22 Q. Probable? 2 3 A. Probable, I think, is the classification. I'd 24 have to check to be sure. 25 Q. I think you're right. 26 A. Okay. 27 Q. But nonetheless, these three chemicals that are 28 biphenyls, right? They all have two benzene rings. They are Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067797 37 3 9 1 not all biphenyls, I should say. But they each have two 2 benzene rings ? 3 A. So you're talking about biphenyl, FCBs, and 4 DDT? 5 Q. Yes. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Isn't it true that biphenyl and DDT do share 8 some properties, right? 9 A. Well, they have benzene rings. 10 Q. And they are both -- ii A. Oh, you're talking about ECBs? 12 Q. ECBs and DDT. 13 A. Okay. They have chlorines and benzene rings. 14 Q. Right. And what else do they share? 15 A. I don't knew what you're asking. 16 Q. Well, they both bicaccumulate, right? 17 A. DDT doesn't itself, but one of its metabolites 18 does. 19 Q. DDE? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. They are both lipophilic? 22 A. Right. They dissolve in fat. 2 3 Q. Right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And we'll cover some of that in a little bit. 26 But Monsanto, getting back, never had any scientific reason to 27 believe that the FCB products it made were ever going to 28 biodegrade in the environment, right? 1 ECBs were continuing to occur throughout the 30's, 40's, 50's, 2 60's, and 70's, right? 3 A. That's correct, yes. 4 Q. Monsanto knew in the 30's that the chemical 5 structure of FCBs consisted of two benzene rings linked 6 together, right? 7 A. Sure. 8 Q. What you showed them? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. But they knew that in the 30's is my point. u A. Well, yes. By definition. 12 Q. All right. Bear with me one second, please. 13 All right. Now I want to talk about open or non-controllable 14 applications or uses. Do you understand what I mean when I 15 say that term? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. All right. And I think you talked about it a 18 little bit on direct. I shouldn't say a little bit. You 19 talked about it a lot. I understand that. The terms open 20 applications and non-controllable applications, they are used 21 interchangeably by Monsanto, true? 22 A. After about 1970, that's generally true, yes. 2 3 Q. But after 1970, those terms are used 24 interchangeably? 25 A. Generally, yes. 26 Q. And I heard you talk about this on direct. You 27 said well, nobody ever called paints an open application in 28 the 1930's or 40's or 50's, right? It wasn't referred to in 3 8 40 1 A. Well, I don't -- I may have said that at one 2 point I don t necessarily agree with that. I mean. 3 obviously, after we began studies, we kneiv that sore ECBs did 4 degrade in the environment. So that statement is not really 5 true, even though I may have said that at one point. 6 Q. I'm trying to unpack that in my head. 7 A. I just don't like the "never." 8 Q. How about did I -- Monsanto never had any 9 scientific reason to believe that many FCB products were ever 10 going to biodegrade in the environment? 11 MR. UPSHAW: Again, your Honor, I'm going to object. 12 Improper impeachment. 13 THE COURT: Overruled. 14 Q. BY MR. FRIELING: Do you see hew I changed it? 15 A. I do see hew you changed it. I'm trying to 16 decide whether I want to make a point. Certainly Monsanto 17 never had any reason to believe that certain higher 18 chlorinated congeners were ever going to degrade in the 19 environment. I'm getting overly technical, but I want to be 20 certain. 21 Q. Monsanto knew that its ECBs were being released 22 into the environment in the 1930's, right? 2 3 A. Yes. 24 Q. From its own plants, right? 25 A. To some extent. 26 Q. From its customers' plants, right? 27 A. I'm sure they knew that, yes. 28 Q. And they knew that environmental releases of 1 that manner. 2 A. I believe there was a question similar to that. 3 and I agreed with that. 4 Q. And you agreed. You said look, they didn't 5 call it that back then. 6 A. Right. 7 Q. It still was one, right? 8 A. Under the terms the way they are used today and 9 back in the 70's, yes. 10 Q. Whatever was considered an open application 11 post 1970 was still an open application prior to 1970 no 12 matter what they called it, right? 13 A. Well, I would quibble with you about heat 14 transfer systems, but other than that, generally, yes. 15 Q. Okay. I get what you're saying, but paints and 16 caulks and things of that nature, they didn't magically turn 17 into open applications when you started calling them that. 18 A. No, they clearly were not in containers. 19 Q. Right. The term non-controllable refers to 20 those applications where escape to the environment cannot be 21 prevented, right? 22 A. Well, I don't know that it could not be 2 3 prevented, but typically it was not. 24 Q. Well, okay. 25 A. I may have said that at one point, but I'm not 26 necessarily quibbling about the general concqot. 27 Q. Okay. And I just want to -- you know, because 28 words are important, and I just want to make sure I get them Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067798 41 4 3 1 right. 2 A. I'm with you a hundred percent on that. 3 Q. Right. So non-controllable refers to those 4 applications where escape to the environment is not going to 5 he prevented. right? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. FCBs were in paints as an open application. 8 True? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. FCBs were used in paints very early on until ii the 1970's, right? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. And, you know, paints were contemplated by 14 Monsanto as being a ECB -- as being a product that FCBs could 15 go in even in the 1930's, right? 16 A. I'm not sure about the 30's. Certainly by the 17 early 1940's, that's clearly true. 18 Q. All right. Nou, isn't it true, sir, that paint 19 existed before ECBs were ever put in it? 20 A. I would agree with that, yes. 21 Q. And since FCBs have been banned, we've had 22 paint without FCBs, correct? 2 3 A. Sure, we have. 24 Q. For those same uses FCBs were used, right? 25 A. Yes. 26 Q. We didn't need FCBs to have paints, right? 27 A. Well, we needed FCBs to have paints with the 28 properties that FCBs gave than. For instance, fire 1 A. He was. 2 Q. He's credited as the person in the 1940's who 3 came up with the idea of using FCBs as heat transfer fluids. 4 right? 5 A. Yes. There is a document that states that. 6 yes. 7 Q. So it's a Monsanto employee who says we've got 8 this FCB fluid. Why don't we see if we can get in the market 9 for heat transfer fluid, right? 10 A. Something like that. u Q. Monsanto had a development department. Among 12 its responsibilities were research and development of 13 potential new applications for FCBs, right? 14 A. Agree. 15 Q. Now, FCBs were not needed in order for us to 16 have heat transfer fluid or hydraulic fluid. Am I right about 17 that? 18 A. And we talked about that. There are a lot that 19 do not have FCBs. 20 Q. In fact, Monsanto itself continued to sell a 21 bio-resistant Pydraul, hydraulic fluid product, even after 22 Monsanto stopped selling Pydraul that contained FCBs, right? 2 3 A. They called that that, yes. 24 Q. In other words, Monsanto's chemists found a way 25 to produce a fire resistant hydraulic without using FCBs, 26 right? 27 A. Yes. 28 Q. There was a difference in the degree of fire 42 44 1 retardancy. 2 Q. FCBs were used in varnishes, which was an open 3 application. right? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. FCBs were used in adhesives, which was an open 6 application. right? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. FCBs were in lacquers, and that was an open 9 application. correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. FCBs were added as a plasticizer -- let me 12 start over. 13 FCBs were added as plasticizers to a wide variety of 14 products that were all cpen applications, right? 15 A. I agree with that, yes. 16 Q. FCBs were used in caulk? That's an open 17 application? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. For each and every one of those categories that 20 we just mentioned, FCBs were not needed in order for us to 21 have adhesives, paints, lacquers, caulk, or plasticizers 22 generally, right? 2 3 A. Correct. They certainly added problems, but 24 that is correct. 25 Q. Monsanto began selling FCBs for heat transfer 26 fluids around 1940, right? 27 A. That's correct. 28 Q. Mr. Benignus -- he's a Monsanto employee? 1 resistance, but they certainly marketed Pydraul as a fire 2 resistant? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Monsanto promoted and marketed both existing 5 and potential new applications for FCBs through its sales 6 department, right? 7 A. I would agree with that. 8 Q. You talked about some of than on direct, right? 9 A. Sure, yes. 10 Q. Monsanto promoted and marketed both existing 11 and potential new applications for FCBs through its technical 12 bulletins, correct? 13 A. That's correct, yes. 14 Q. Monsanto's technical bulletins for various 15 Arcelor products served the function of sales brochures. 16 right? 17 A. That was part of their function, yes. 18 Q. Monsanto's medical department would assist in 19 the sales and marketing of FCBs by providing information about 20 FCB toxicity to customers and potential customers, yes? 21 A. Yes, definitely. 22 Q. Heat transfer fluids were used in food fryers. 2 3 yes? 24 A. They were used in the heat transfer system for 25 those fryers. 26 Q. Not the cooking oil. 27 A. Okay. Thank you. I just want to be clear. 28 Q. All right. They mere used in that application Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067799 45 47 1 beginning in the 1950's, right? 2 A. That's approximately correct, as far as I know. 3 Q. In the 1950's, Monsanto knows that when it 4 sells FCBs to be used in treat transfer fluids for food 5 fryers, the ?CBs could get into the food, yes? 6 A. They warned about potential leaks in those 7 systems. So they ware obviously aware that that potential 8 existed. 9 Q. Okay. When Monsanto began selling ECBs to be 10 used in heat transfer systems to fry food, it's foreseeable to ii them that the FCBs could leak into the cooking oil, yes? 12 A. I believe we covered that on direct. Yes, I 13 agree with you. 14 Q. You have seen no evidence that Monsanto ever 15 developed a system that would automatically detect when ECBs 16 were mixing with cooking oil in a deep fat fryer, right? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. Without such a detection system, it is 19 impossible -- it is possible that cooking oil could be 20 contaminated with ECBs without anyone knowing it, right? 21 A. That's conceivable, I think, yes. 22 Q. Okay. All right, doctor, I want to continue 2 3 our discussion about open use products. 24 A. Okay. 25 Q. And I thought I had this document now. Give me 26 one second. 312. All right. You've seen this document 27 before, I believe. This is Exhibit 312. 28 Doctor, you may want to reach behind you. There' s 1 A. At some point, yes. 2 Q. Right. At this point even, it's contemplated 3 to be using Arcelors or ECBs in food wrappings, right? 4 A. In the mind of the person that filed this, yes. 5 They contemplated that idea, yes. 6 Q. And we know that it's being contemplated for 7 food wrappings because it says, you know, it's providing a 8 wrapper that's tasteless, right? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. And who cares if it's tasteless unless it's u getting near your mouth, right? 12 A. I would agree with that -- 13 MR. UPSHAW: Objection, your Honor. Speculation. 14 THE COURT: I'll allow the question and answer to 15 stand. 16 Q. BY MR. FRTFT,TUG: All right. Now, we don't -- 17 I want to follow up on something you said on direct. But I 18 think you were asked a question about did you see any sales 19 records for food wrappings or -- I don't remember the product. 20 but it was food wrappings, or it was insecticides or something 21 like that, prior to 1958. Do you recall being asked something 22 like that? 2 3 A. I mean, we talked about sales records. I 24 thought it was for the chewing gum thing. 25 Q. Oh, that could have been that. I didn't have 26 my notes in front of me. But the point is there are no sales 27 records from the 30's, correct? 28 A. Correct. 46 48 1 some notdoooks. Can you see okay? 2 A. Yes, and I have the monitor here. 3 Q. Right, right. You've seen this document 4 before. It' s a patent, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. And this patent relates to an improved 7 water resistant, self-healing adhesive? 8 A. That's what it says, yes. 9 Q. And this says another object is to provide an 10 adhesive composition which shall be -- what dees that say? 11 Tasteless and odorless? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Which may be used for paper products such as 14 food containers and the like, right? 15 A. That's what it reads, yes. 16 Q. Okay. And this is a patent that contemplates 17 using ECBs? 18 A. It's in the writer's mind. It certainly says 19 that. 20 Q. And this is filed by Russell Jenkins, Anniston, 21 and this is Swann, right? 22 A. Correct. 2 3 Q. And this is 1932. That's when the application 24 goes in, right? 25 A. Yes. 26 Q. So even back in the early 30's, it was 27 contemplated by Swann, which, again, we know that Monsanto had 28 an interest in Swann, right? 1 Q. There are no sales records from the 40's. 2 right? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. And the absence of those records dees not mean 5 FCBs weren't sold for commercial food wrapping, right? 6 A. You can't say either way. 7 Q. And that's my point, right? Which is we do 8 have some evidence that this was contemplated, right? 9 A. Apparently it was contemplated, yes. 10 Q. And we -- this isn't the only one, right? 11 A. No, that's correct. 12 Q. There's other documents that talk about using 13 FCBs in food wrappings or wax? 14 A. Or not as food wrappings, but as a component of 15 food wrapping. 16 Q. And that's what I meant. 17 A. I know what you meant. I just want to get it 18 clear. 19 Q. I want to continue the Power Point discussion. 20 Mr. Anderson, will you take me to slide 121? 21 THE COURT: Again, you're back to Exhibit 885? 22 MR. ERIELING: Yes, your Honor. 2 3 That's perfect. 24 120. What's being depicted now, your Honor, is 25 Exhibit 343. 26 THE COURT: Yes. 27 MR. ERIELING: The jury has seen this. 28 THE COURT: Yes. Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067800 49 51 1 Q. BY MR. FRIELING: Dr. Kaley, you've seen this 2 advertisonent , right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. And this is the advertisement that was 5 in the Saturday Evening Post? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And it says found, three industries that can't 8 use Aroclors. And it's kind of a fun title that really all 9 industries can use Aroclors, but we found three that magbe 10 not, right? ii A. That's fair. 12 Q. Okay. And then it gives some examples at the 13 bottom here. We talked a little bit to Dr. Reitman about 14 this, but I want to get your input. We're seeing here some 15 depictions about paints and varnishes, but it's true, right? 16 It' s true that Monsanto' s FCBs were used in paints and 17 varnishes, right? 18 A. That's correct, yes. 19 Q. As open applications? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And they were used in vinyl and plastics. 22 right? 2 3 A. Yes. 24 Q. And there are -- there is a reference to shower 25 curtains, right? 26 A. I don't recall that. I'll take your word for 27 it. If there is, there is. 28 Q. All right. And that's what's being depicted 1 Q. We know they made adhesives? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. And this is showing an adhesive where people 4 actually have the adhesive in their hands. 5 A. That's what the ad is showing. 6 Q. All right. Well, I mean -- and then rubber 7 finishes. Those gentlaren are being depicted as painting on a 8 rubber finish right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And we know FCBs were used in rubber finishes. u A. That's correct, we do. 12 Q. Okay. This Glccoat idea. And, doctor, I'm 13 jumping around because I know his Honor wants me to be done. 14 THE COURT: I want you all to be done. 15 MR. FRIELING: I understand. 16 THE COURT: So it's nothing personal. 17 MR. FRIELING: I was just going to say I'm the one 18 under that right now. I didn't take it personally. That's 19 for sure. 20 Q. This is the annual research rqoort fron 1946. 21 I think you comuented on this in the direct seam, right? 22 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. Okay. And this is the document that references 24 the Johnson Company? 25 A. Yes. 26 Q. Floor wax? 27 A. Yes. 28 Q. Okay. And this is 1946, remember. 50 52 1 here in this picture, right? 2 A. That's clear, yes. 3 Q. And this is what Monsanto, by the way, is 4 advertising. right? 5 A. Hard to deny that, yes. 6 Q. And it doesn't make any sense to be advertising 7 using these pictures if, in fact, it wasn't used for that 8 purpose, right? 9 MR. UPSFAW: Cfojection. Calls for speculation. 10 THE COURT: Reframe the question. 11 MR. FRIELING: I will, your Honor. 12 Q. An I correct, doctor, that when Monsanto 13 advertises FCBs being used in the manner that they are being 14 used in this advertisement, that we should believe it? 15 MR. UPSFAW: Cfojection. Calls for speculation. 16 THE COURT: It's argumentative. 17 Q. BY MR. FRIELING: Doctor, am I correct -- well. 18 let me ask you straight out. 19 Do you know if FCBs were used in shower curtains? 20 A. I don't know. 21 Q. All right. You can't say either way. 22 A. I cannot say either way. 2 3 Q. But what we do know is Monsanto advertised for 24 that? 25 A. They certainly put that picture in that ad. 26 yes. 27 Q. And adhesives, right? 28 A. Yes. 1 A. Okay. I will. Thank you. 2 Q. But it's talking about the S.C. Johnson 3 Corrpany right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And it's talking about Gloccat specifically. 6 right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And it's talking about they purchased Aroclor 9 in carloads, right? 10 A. That's what it says. 11 Q. And it's talking about Aroclor 1254, right? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. Okay. And that's what Dr. Markowitz was 14 talking about in his testimony? 15 A. I understand. 16 Q. Okay. Now, you referenced a document, I 17 believe it was fron 1970, right? 18 A. As I recall, yes. 19 Q. And I think this document, I believe, was shown 20 to the jury. This is Exhibit 827. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And the date is 1970, right? 2 3 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. And it's June 5, 1970. By the way, is 25 this after Monsanto stepped selling FCBs for open 26 applications ? 27 A. It's just before. 28 Q. Just before. Okay. But it doesn't -- this is Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067801 53 55 1 Johnson Corrpany, and they are talking about floor 'waxes. 2 right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. But it doesn't even say Gloccat. 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. Right? You don't know what floor wax they are 7 talking about correct? 8 A. Certainly I do not. 9 Q. Right? As opposed to the 1946 document that 10 actually said Gloccat, right? ii A. It did. 12 Q. All right. 13 Can I get 424. 14 You also showed -- this is Exhibit 832, which you 15 showed. It's on this page. Wisconsin Solvents renewed 16 350-pound contract for THEP with Johnson and Sons, right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. This is 1968? 19 A. I believe so. 20 Q. And again, it doesn't even mention Glocoat, 21 right? 22 A. Correct. 2 3 Q. Was S.C. Johnson making Glocoat in 1968? 24 A. I don't know. Good question. I don't know. 25 It sounds familiar from -- 26 Q. From waxing your floor? 27 A. Yeah. 28 Q. Did they make it in 1970? 1 insecticides as an extender, right? 2 A. Yes, I believe it mentions the pure FCBs in a 3 note in the lack, as I recall the document. But it's -- 4 Q. Yeah, I -- 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Yeah. And I guess the point I'm trying to -- 7 well, the point I'd like to make is is it fair to say, doctor. 8 that Monsanto continually tried to advertise its PCBs as 9 insect extenders -- insecticide extenders? 10 A. It appears in a number of their bulletins u throughout seme period of time, yes. 12 Q. Right. And their bulletins -- I mean, it lists 13 FCBs as one of the uses as pesticide extenders? 14 A. It dees do that, yes. 15 Q. And, in fact, if we go look at the IARC 16 monograph today, it lists FCBs as have been used as pesticide 17 extenders? 18 A. I don't recall that. It may very well. 19 Q. Okay. Well, that wouldn't surprise you? 20 A. It would not surprise me. Is that what you 21 said? It would not surprise me. 22 Q. Because Monsanto marketed it for that purposes. 2 3 true? 24 A. To the extent that this document and the 25 bulletins market it, yes, clearly. 26 Q. They wanted to sell it for that purpose, right? 27 A. Yes. 28 Q. And they did, right? 54 56 1 A. Counselor, I don't know. 2 Q. I mean, this is what it is, right? 3 THE COURT: Co we have an exhibit number? 4 MR. FRIELING: Yes, your Honor. 424. 5 Q. This is that Johnson Gloccat? 6 A. I would agree with that. 7 Q. Okay. And we know -- what we do know is that 8 this product was being made in 1946, true? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And we know that they were using Arcelor in 11 some of it, right? 12 A. Well, they were -- at least they were 13 investigating it. 14 Q. They were investigating with carloads of the 15 product? 16 A. Well, that could very well be. 17 Q. Okay. I want to talk about insecticides. 18 Is it fair to say. Dr. Kaley -- 19 And this is Exhibit 188, your Honor. 20 This is Monsanto -- you've seen this document 21 before? 22 A. Sure, I have, yes. 2 3 Q. This is dated March 1961. This is a Monsanto 24 document. right? 25 A. Yes. 26 Q. Okay. Monsanto Arcelor resins for insecticide 27 formulations. And it's talking about using Aroclors, 28 including 5460 and pure FCBs, in connection with certain 1 A. They did. To some extent. Apparently not very 2 much. 3 Q. But they did. 4 A. They did. Seme. 5 Q. This is Exhibit 457. Doctor, you've seen this 6 before? 7 A. I have. 8 Q. Okay. This is a guide for formulating 9 Santcbane, Monsanto DDT, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. This is from the year -- well, I don't remsrber 12 the year. But what we do know, doctor, is that Monsanto 13 made -- so Monsanto made DDT, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Manufactured DDT during the same period of 16 time -- well , that's a bad question. 17 Monsanto manufactured DDT from approximately 1947 to 18 1957. Co I lave that right? 19 A. That's right. 20 Q. Okay. So at the same time they were 21 manufacturing DDT, they were manufacturing FCBs? 22 A. Yes, they were. 2 3 Q. Okay. And this document, have you reviewed 24 this document? 25 A. Yes, to seme extent. 26 Q. Okay. It says DDT is one of the most widely 27 used insecticides, right? 28 A. Yes, definitely. Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067802 57 59 1 Q. And this is from the United States Department 2 of Agriculture. And it says its extensive use is due largely 3 to the following three advantages. Effective as both a 4 contact and stomach poison. Talking about bugs? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Possesses a low order of toxicity toward animal 7 life, long-lasting residue, toxic to insects. The last 8 advantage requires a full understanding of each use for which 9 a DDT formulation is intended in order to assure its greatest 10 effectiveness. ii And that's what this document tries to do, right? 12 A. Yes, generally. 13 Q. It tries to tell the reader, hey, here's the 14 formulations that you can use with DDT, right? 15 A. To some extent, yes. 16 Q. And if we go through this -- and doctor, DDT 17 could be used with solvents, right? 18 A. Yes. It gives a table of solubilities. 19 Q. Right. And one of those -- well, a few of 20 those solvents to be used, special solvents it says, right? 21 A. It does. 22 Q. Right. And the special solvents that it 2 3 recommends to be used with their DDT product are Aroclors, 24 right? 25 A. Well, suggests I would use. But certainly they 26 are listed among the special solvents in that document. 27 Q. Those are ECBs? 28 A. Yes, they are. 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And I think you went through with Mr. Upshaw 3 and showed various warnings given over time? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. I think. 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. And I don't want to take every one of those out 8 right now. I will if I have to, but I don't want to. But 9 would you agree with me that somewhere in the 1950's, that 10 specific warning that said systemic toxicity, if ingested u orally, went away? 12 A. I don't recall if those exact words, went away. 13 but, you know. the ones we showed talked about liver toxicity 14 and chloracne. So I don't know that, as I sit here. I know 15 one where those exact words appear. 16 Q. Let me ask a question based on your response. 17 A. Okay. 18 Q. Those warnings that you showed us, I believe 19 they were from the 50's and 60's. There may have been one 20 from the 40's. I don't remember. The language that you 21 pointed out to the jury did not contain the words systemically 22 toxic from oral injection, correct? 2 3 A. It did not contain those words. That's 24 correct. 25 Q. And those words were contained in that 1937 26 letter, right? 27 A. Sure. 28 Q. And the source from that warning would be from 58 60 1 Q. 1242, 1248, those are pure FCBs? 2 A. Yes, they are. 3 Q. And as you just said, they are being 4 recommended. suggested to be used as a solvent with DDT. 5 A. Well, they are certainly giving the information 6 of what the solubility is. So clearly yes. 7 Q. All right. You were talking about warnings. 8 right? 9 A. I did, yes. 10 Q. Let's see if I can do this in summation form. 11 But it is true, and we saw that warning from 1937, I believe. 12 from the very beginning. 13 A. The letter that talked about using that wording 14 in -- it wasr 't actually a warning. 15 Q. I'm sorry? 16 A. It wasn't actually a warning document. But it 17 was a letter saying we should use this information in our 18 warnings and bulletins, yes. 19 Q. Gotcha. I misspoke. 20 It said something about systemic toxicity from oral 21 ingestion, right? 22 A. As I recall, yes. 2 3 Q. Right. Those words were in there, yes? 24 A. I believe so, yes. 25 Q. And that means when you get it in your mouth. 26 it could cause systemic toxicity, depending upon the amount. 27 A. Yes. 28 Q. Right? 1 Drinker? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. Because Drinker fed rats FCBs, correct? 4 A. In some instances, yes. 5 Q. All right. And, in fact, the 1955 -- you 6 remember the 1955 notice that says don't eat in the ECB area? 7 A. I remember the notice, but I don't remember the 8 date. But go ahead. 9 Q. 1955, just assume for me. 10 A. Okay. It doesn't matter. 11 Q. But it said in that letter, early studies said 12 it should not be ingested orally. 13 A. I don't know if those words were in there. It 14 may have had that implication. 15 Q. I'11 not -- 16 A. I know. I don't remember the words. 17 Mr. Frieling. 18 Q. I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. 19 A. No, I know you're not. 20 MR. FRIELING: This is it. This is Exhibit 77, your 21 Honor. 22 THE COURT: Yes. 2 3 Q. BY MR. FRIELING: This is from November 14, 24 1955. 25 A. Yes. 26 Q. And it says: "While Aroclors are not 27 particularly hazardous from our own experience, this is a 28 difficult problem to define because early literature work Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067803 61 63 1 claimed that chlorinated biphenyls ware quite toxic materials 2 by ingestion or inhalation." 3 A. Okay. Fair enough. 4 THE COURT: Hew much more do you have? 5 MR. FRIELING: I have about 45 minutes. 6 THE COURT: All right. Let's take our afternoon 7 recess. Keep in mind the admonition. See you all back in 8 15 minutes. 9 (Recess taken.) 10 THE COURT: In the case of Dauber versus Monsanto, ii the record will reflect all counsel are present. All jurors 12 and alternates are present. 13 Mr. Frieling, you may conclude. 14 MR. FRIELING: Thank you, your Honor. I will 15 finish. 16 THE COURT: I know. 17 MR. FRIELING: Okay. 18 THE COURT: I have every confidence. 19 MR. FRIELING: Thank you, your Honor. 20 Q. Okay. Dr. Kaley, are you ready? 21 A. I am. 22 Q. I've got sane more questions for you. I want 2 3 to look at a few more things with respect to food. But before 24 I go to the next document, in your direct, did I understand 25 you to talk about some warnings that Monsanto provided with 26 using FCBs in the food industry? 27 A. Yes. 28 Q. And I think you pointed out some of those 1 their FCBs can get into cooking oil because of leaks, right? 2 A. They have reports of leaks, yes. 3 Q. In fact, in 1960 they had a rqoort of a leak 4 from Frito-Lay, right? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. Okay. Now, are you aware of any claims by 7 anybody that Monsanto's FCBs were getting into cooking oil 8 that ultimately reached people? 9 MR. UPSHAN: Objection. Cooking oil that reached 10 people? u THE COURT: I didn't understand the question either. 12 Go again. 13 MR. FRIELING: I may have misspoke. 14 Q. Are you aware of any claims made that 15 Monsanto's FCBs that are in heat transfer fluids leaked into 16 cooking oil, and that cooking oil made food that people ate? 17 A. As I sit here, nothing is coming to mind. 18 Q. Are you aware of any claims of that nature? 19 A. Not as I sit here, no. 20 Q. Okay. Am I correct, doctor, that the burning 21 of carbonless copy paper resulted in millions of pounds of 22 FCBs being released to the atmosphere every year? 2 3 A. That estimate was made, I believe, in 24 Dr. Ffetcalf' s report to Monsanto. I knew that estimate has 25 been made. 26 Q. You don't disagree with that, do you? 27 A. I don't have any reason to, no. 28 Q. All right. Now, moving ahead, this issue of 62 64 1 warnings that were in the technical bulletins. Is that fair? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Okay. This is Exhibit 371. You've seen this 4 document before? 5 A. I have. 6 Q. Okay. And it's dated October 13, 1966. And it 7 says Therminol heat transfer. As you said, Therminol is a 8 heat transfer fluid, correct? 9 A. Yes. It's a number of heat transfer fluids. 10 but that's the trade name for Monsanto's heat transfer fluid. 11 Q. Right. And same of those Therminols had FCBs 12 in them? 13 A. In that time frame, yes. 14 Q. This is 1966. 15 A. Right. 16 Q. And this document is entitled food industry 17 penetration, correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. So isn't it true that Monsanto was 20 selling PCB-containing fluids for use in the food industry 21 with respect to heat transfer mechanisms? 22 A. That's correct. 2 3 Q. Okay. Co I understand you correctly when you 24 say Monsanto selling FCB fluids for purposes of heat transfer 25 is not really a use in the fcod industry? 26 A. Well, it's a use, certainly. But it's not 27 being used as a direct or an indirect additive to the fcod. 28 Q. But Monsanto certainly knews at this point that 1 Dr. Jensen, is it true that Dr. Jensen was not the first 2 scientist to ever put a gas chromatograph together with a mass 3 spectrometer? 4 A. Number one, he didn't do that, but number two. 5 the instrument that he used was not the first time it had ever 6 been done. It was the first time it had been done for trace 7 analysis. 8 Q. In fact, Dow Chemical had done that, right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Is it true that Monsanto profited from its 11 sales of FCBs? 12 A. I'm sure it is. 13 Q. Is it true that Monsanto made a profit on FCBs 14 that are inside the bodies of people in the general population 15 today? 16 A. I don't know hew to answer that. I don't knew 17 that there's any way to demonstrate that FCBs that are in 18 their bodies came from Monsanto. So if they made profit on 19 FCBs, if somdoedy can figure out a way that proves that they 20 are Monsanto's, I'm sure that's true. 21 Q. It's true, doctor, that Monsanto's FCBs found 22 its way into people, yes? 2 3 A. I suppose it's likely, but I don't knew that 24 it's for sure true. 25 Q. Okay. So it's likely that Monsanto's FCBs 26 found their bodies into people? 27 A. Found their way into people? I think it's 28 likely, yes. Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067804 65 67 1 Q. And, in fact, doctor, those ECBs that likely 2 found their way into people, Monsanto made a profit on those. 3 right? 4 A. For sure. That follows from the previous one. 5 Sure. 6 Q. Okay. Next topic. I don't know if -- I don't 7 have an exhibit number for this. You talked about the cancer 8 index. 9 A. Okay. 10 Q. Do you recall? ii A. I do. 12 Q. Okay. Yes, it's another topic. 13 THE COURT: Co you wish to mark this as next in 14 order? 15 MS. BUSK: I think it's previously marked 152. 16 MR. FRIELING: 152. I was mistaken, but I'll check 17 that. 18 Khy I hand one to the witness, your Honor? 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 Q. BY MR. FRIELING: Okay. Doctor, you have 21 Exhibit 152 in front of you. You recognize that document? 22 A. Yes, I do. 2 3 Q. That's the cancer index you were talking about? 24 A. Yes, it's Dr. Kelly's cancer -- 25 Q. Okay. Dr. Kelly apparently from 1946 until 26 19 -- approximately 1977 -- if somebody got a cancer while 27 working at a Monsanto plant in the United States, he would 28 write down what the cancer -- the person, what the cancer was. 1 another product, yes, to some extent. 2 Q. No other plants did that is my point. 3 A. That's my understanding. 4 Q. So there's really three plants where the 5 highest potential for exposure to ECBs would be, right? 6 A. I agree with that, yes. 7 Q. That would be Queeny. That would be Sauget. 8 That would be Anniston, right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. And what I have done is I've highlighted u on this cancer -- this is several pages, right? 12 A. It's a number of pages, sure. More than 13 several. 14 Q. Okay. And I've highlighted where there was a 15 cancer from one of those three plants. I've done that, right? 16 A. Somebody did. I assume it's you if you say so. 17 Q. Would you assume that I did that? 18 A. I will assume that. 19 Q. All right. But I want to establish something 20 first. First off, am I correct that Monsanto did not do any 21 epidemiology study on its workers in the 1930's, right? 22 A. Correct. 2 3 Q. And when I say workers, I mean ECB workers. 24 A. Right. 25 Q. And it didn't do any epidemiology stub/ on its 26 ECB workers in the 40's, right? 27 A. Correct. 28 Q. Or the 50's? 6 6 68 1 and sometimes where they worked. Am I right about that? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Generally speaking, that's what he did? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. Certainly. 7 Q. And it looks like this, right? This is, again. 8 this is Exhibit 127. I'm sorry. 152. Thank you. 152. And 9 here are different pages -- different selected pages, right? 10 That show -- and again, the names are redacted, but you see 11 the location and sometimes the job and the cancer and the age 12 and the living or deceased, right? 13 A. Yes, yes. 14 Q. And this is for all Monsanto's plants in the 15 United States? 16 A. In the United States, that's correct. 17 Q. Which is quite a number, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. That's quite a few plants, I think. I believe 20 in the 40's or 50's it was 21? 21 A. That sounds about right. 22 Q. All right. And we've already established ECBs 2 3 were manufactured in two plants. That was Anniston and 24 Sauget? 25 A. Correct. 26 Q. There was a third plant called the Queeny plant 27 that actually mixed ECBs, right? 28 A. They mixed ECBs with other products to form 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. Or the 60's? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. Okay. Now, as I understand it, and I want 5 to -- I may get this wrong, but there was at least an 6 epidemiology study started sometime in the 70's; is that 7 right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. That was never finished or published; is that 10 right? 11 A. Well, there was an initial look that was not 12 finished. And then it was picked up again later in the 70's. 13 That was finished, but it was never published in the public 14 literature. 15 Q. All right. But when it was started in the 16 70's, they saw an elevation for lung cancer? 17 A. That's what they reported, yes. 18 Q. Something else about the cancer index from 19 Dr. Kelly. Dr Kelly did not -- well, let me back up. If 20 somebody was working at Monsanto and got cancer, he would 21 record that, right? 22 A. Well, as I said, this came from the insurance 2 3 records. So that's what he was relying on. So I believe 24 you're correct yes. 25 Q. Okay. And it's true, though, sir, that people 26 would work at Monsanto, and they leave and go work somewhere 27 else? 28 A. Sure. Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067805 69 71 1 Q. That happened? 2 A. Of course. 3 Q. And it's not like a typical qoidemiology study 4 where Dr. Kelly would then track this person over time to see 5 if they got cancer later down the road, right? 6 A. I believe that's correct. I don't know 7 whether -- how the insurance coverage worked, whether there 8 was continuing insurance. So I really don't know the answer 9 to your question. 10 Q. You don't have any evidence that he did. ii A. That's correct. 12 Q. Okay. And you -- I know you're not an 13 qoidemiologist, but you would not consider this cancer index 14 an qoidemiology study? 15 A. Of course not. 16 Q. By any measure. 17 A. By any measure. 18 Q. In fact, in fact, the excess of lung cancer 19 they saw when they started looking at it in the 70's, you 20 could not ascertain that from looking at Dr. Kelly's lists. 21 right? 22 A. Correct. 2 3 Q. Okay. You couldn't deduce that just from 24 looking at what Dr. Kelly compiled. 25 A. That's correct, yes, you'd need a comparison 26 population. 27 Q. And I think you mentioned this, but we're 28 talking about -- when we're talking about the FCB workers 1 responsible for almost a third of the cancers in all the U.S. 2 plants? 3 A. Sure, they could have been responsible for a 4 third of the employees in all the plants too. Without knowing 5 that, you don't know. 6 Q. And do you know that? 7 A. I don't. 8 Q. Let's talk about Treon. You were asked 9 questions about the Treon study. This is the lymphoma mouse. 10 right? u A. Yes. 12 Q. The infamous lymphoma mouse. But it is true 13 that the report gees to Monsanto identifying the lymphoma 14 mouse, right? 15 A. There was a mouse that was reported to die of 16 lymphoma, yes. 17 Q. It's also true that we don't know what 18 correspondence, if any, happened between Monsanto and Treon 19 regarding that mouse, right? 20 A. I've never seen any. So I guess we don't know 21 whether there was any or not. I've certainly never seen any. 22 Q. That was my point. 2 3 A. Okay. 24 Q. But what we do know is the publication -- I 25 don't like talking this way, but when the publication is 26 published, there's no mention of lymphoma in that mouse. 27 right? 28 A. That word is not used. That's correct. 70 72 1 specifically. that's a small group of people relatively 2 speaking? 3 A. Exactly, yes. 4 Q. I think you said less than a dozen people made 5 PDBs in Anniston? 6 A. I believe that's correct. 7 Q. And when you're trying to figure out if there's 8 excess cancer in a population, a population of 12 is just a 9 very -- it's almost not worth looking at in terms of cancer 10 causation? 11 A. I agree with you totally, yes. 12 Q. It's not going to yield much information. 13 A. One way or the other. That's correct. 14 Q. Okay. And, doctor, I tallied up the cancers on 15 this list. Have you done that? 16 A. I have tallied up some of the cancers on the 17 list, not all of them. I don't know which ones you did. 18 Q. Well, I was trying to figure out what 19 percentage of the total cancers in these 21 plants, give or 20 take, came from those three EB manufacturing plants. That's 21 what I was trying to figure out. 22 A. I have not done that. 2 3 Q. And it came to about 31 percent. Dees that 24 sound about right? 25 A. I'll take your -- if you it and you did the 26 math right and that's the number you got, I can't argue with 27 it because I lave not checked it. 28 Q. So these three plants out of 21 could be 1 Q. Okay. Can you go to 134. 2 THE COURT: Exhibit 134 you're looking at? 3 MR. ERIELING: Your Honor, this is Exhibit 885. I 4 was going to the slide number. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 Q. BY MR. ERIELING: Let's talk about 7 Dr. Ris^srough. Dr. Ris^srough in 1969, doctor, discovers 8 ECBs contaminating the California environment. True? 9 A. Generally, yes. 10 Q. Okay. Is it also true that Monsanto stated in 11 response to that that his position is intact or you'll have to 12 withdraw the product? Is that right? 13 A. There's a document that states that, yes. 14 Q. It also publicly questioned whether Ris^srough 15 found ECBs, right? 16 A. Yes, we discussed that document this morning. 17 Q. But privately there was no question about it. 18 right? 19 A. Well, I think there actually was within 20 Monsanto. I think we talked about the question, some of the 21 analytical chemists did have questions about the 22 identification because Dr. Risebrough had not used mass spec. 2 3 So there was some discussion within the company about whether 24 the results were really ECBs. 25 Q. Okay. Dr. Kaley, is it true that in 1970, open 26 applications made up 43 percent approximately of the total 27 sales of ECBs? 28 A. I believe that's correct, yes. Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067806 7 3 75 1 Q. Okay. And, doctor, is it also true that open 2 applications increased every year after 1966? 3 A. I believe that's correct, yes. 4 Q. And you had a slide in here. It said ECBs ware 5 1 percent of Monsanto's total sales. You ranarber that? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And then it had a bar chart here, and it said 8 77 percent sold for electrical equipnent? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. But that wasn't true in those later years. ii right? In those later years, 43 percent -- 12 A. I'd have to go back. I believe that must be 13 correct. That makes sense, yes. 14 Q. All right. And I'm just trying to get -- here. 15 we've covered that. All right. I want to talk about this. 16 Okay. You were asked about this on direct. And I think 17 Mr. Upshaw said -- well, again, this is the IBT discussion? 18 A. Yes, this is the discussion about the final 19 report on the IBT studies, yes. 20 Q. Right. Because they got a rqport from IBT that 21 said slightly tumorigenic, right? 22 A. On one of the rqoorts, yes. 2 3 Q. And Monsanto responded back and said can you 24 change that to does not appear to be carcinogenic? 25 A. Right. Which was the wording on the other two 26 reports, yes. 27 Q. Which had also said slightly tumorigenic. 28 right? 1 A. No, it's not. 2 Q. Okay. Does slightly tumorigenic give 3 additional information? 4 A. Well, it gives -- slightly tumorigenic can 5 apply to both benign cancers and malignant cancers. And the 6 IBT studies did not show malignant cancers. So slightly 7 tumorigenic said they were tumors. Dees not appear to be 8 carcinogenic says there were no cancers. So that's the 9 difference I see in those terms. 10 Q. Right. And what a reader will not understand u fran does not appear to be carcinogenic is that it is, in 12 fact, slightly tumorigenic? 13 MR. UPSHAW: Objection. Speculation. 14 THE COURT: Sustained. 15 Q. BY MR. ERIELING: Well, doctor, when you read a 16 statonent like does not appear to be carcinogenic, you 17 wouldn't understand if that -- if it causes tumors or not. 18 right? 19 A. Well, I would say that if I see a sentence like 20 that in a report, I'm going to read the rest of the report and 21 see what the rqport says, what the data say. 22 Q. And clearly in those rqports the data were 2 3 there to be seen? I'm just talking about the statement. 24 A. Well, I forget the original question. I'm 25 sorry. 26 Q. All I'm saying, doctor, is if you see the 27 statonent does not appear to be carcinogenic, you see that 28 statonent, you will not know if it causes tumors or not. 74 76 1 A. I think that inference can be drawn at sane 2 point, yes. 3 Q. And it was requested that it be changed? 4 A. I've never seen any indication whether Monsanto 5 requested that change or whether IBT made that change on their 6 own. I don't know. 7 Q. Nonetheless, nonetheless, what we do know is 8 that IBT changed their original language frau slightly 9 tumorigenic to does not appear to be carcinogenic based on 10 Monsanto's request, right? 11 A. Certainly for that one -- that one for sure. 12 yes. 13 Q. Okay. And I think you were asked -- I think 14 you were asked a question are those different or inconsistent 15 with each other. 16 Do you recall that? 17 A. I recall the question. I don't rouorber 18 exactly what the question was. I do recall the question. 19 Q. You know what I'm getting at, though, right? 20 Which is -- well, let me ask a different question. 21 Will you agree that saying a chemical is slightly 22 tumorigenic sends a different signal than dees not appear to 2 3 be carcinogenic? 24 MR. UPSHAW: Cfojection. Calls for speculation. 25 THE COURT: Sustained. It's argumentative. 26 Q. BY MR. ERIELING: Okay. Let me ask this 27 question. Doctor, is the term slightly tumorigenic, is that 28 the same thing to you as does not appear to be carcinogenic? 1 A. If that statonent is standing alone sanewhere. 2 that is correct. 3 Q. Okay. This is Exhibit 377. Doctor, you've 4 seen this exhibit before, yes? 5 A. I have. 6 Q. This is the Eoquist article? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. And at the tep, it's hard to read. It 9 says the need for continued use of polychlorinated biphenyls 10 as electrical insulating liquids, right? 11 A. Yes, that's correct. 12 Q. Moving on, Monsanto has taken the following 13 actions. This is from Mr. Eoquist, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Stepped sales to epen users, and that's called 16 paint formulations, plasticizers, hydraulic fluid 17 manufacturers, et cetera, stopped sales for use in heat 18 exchangers, particularly food processors, alerted all 19 recipient manufacturers to exercise care in use of fluids. 20 right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Provided for waste fluids' incineration? 2 3 A. Correct. 24 Q. Modified capacitor fluids, eliminating the 25 moral highly chlorinated and environmentally more 26 objectionable fractions. That's talking about the higher 27 chlorinated ones you were talking about? 28 A. Yes. This is specifically with regard to Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067807 77 79 1 Aroclor 1242, yes. 2 Q. All of these actions have greatly improved the 3 control of FCBs to prevent future environmental damage by 4 eliminating future open systau usage, which is provided over 5 99 percent of FCBs introduced in the environment. That's 6 talking about open uses, right? 7 A. That's what it says. 8 Q. Okay. Doctor, slide 154. You have a timeline 9 that you presented to the jury? 10 A. Yes. ii Q. Okay. We have one as well. I'm not going to 12 go through every piece of this. But we talked -- you talked 13 about the Halcwax deaths, right? 14 A. Briefly, yes. 15 Q. And that brought on the Drinker studies. 16 1930's, again , nobody is looking for cancer, correct? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. Hold on one second. We talked about Treon. 19 Okay. I want to get to the bottom. Do you recall a 20 situation where duPont makes an inquiry to Monsanto about 21 whether POBs are carcinogenic in 1965? 22 A. I've seen that document. I knew what you're 2 3 referring to. yes. 24 Q. And then Dr. Kelly has a response back. 25 correct? 26 A. That's correct. 27 Q. And in his response. Dr. Kelly says that 28 carcinogenesis can be dismissed completely. 1 A. Yes, it is. 2 Q. Dated March 30, 1970? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. And it says: "We have been in ccmmunication 5 with Dr. Hill of the Ohio State Board of Health. He has found 6 FCB, particularly Aroclor 1254, in samples of milk from at 7 least three herds in Ohio. He has traced this contamination 8 back to silage from three different silos." 9 That's where they keep the grain, right? 10 A. Well, it's where they keqo the silage. u Q. Right. Whatever it might be? 12 A. It's chcpped-up corn. 13 Q. To feed the animals? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Dr. Hill reported concentrations of .2 ppm of 16 FCB in the silage, in the center of the silo, and up to 20 ppm 17 in the material next to the walls. He also stated that 18 concentrations in the milk were between . 1 ppm and . 6 ppm and 19 that some of the milk had been -- anyway there's contamination 20 in the silo frou ECBs, right? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. And the bottau line is it caries frau the paint 2 3 that had been used to paint the silos? 24 A. The coating. 25 Q. The coating. And it says as a rough guess. 26 they consider there are 50 other silos that are involved in 27 Ohio that were painted with the same formulation? 28 A. Yes. 78 80 7 [1 0 0 1 Do you recall that? 2 A. I do. 3 Q. And this is, at this point in time, there's no 4 study that's been done on FCB workers, right? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. Or your ECB customers, correct? 7 A. As far as I know, that's correct. 8 Q. Okay. And there's been no long-term cancer 9 studies on FCBs at that time, correct? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. All right. But yet he says it can be dismissed 12 completely, right? 13 A. That's what he said, yes. 14 Q. All right. All right. In your timeline I 15 think you discussed when Monsanto first made a warning to 16 customers about preventing releases to the environment. 17 Do you recall that? 18 A. The actual label warning, yes. 19 Q. 1970-ish? 20 A. March 1970. 21 Q. All right. I want to go to one thing leading 22 up to that. This is 236. 2 3 THE COURT: Exhibit 236? 24 MR. ERIELING: Yes, your Honor. 25 Q. You've seen this document before; is that 26 right, sir? 27 A. Yes, I have. 28 Q. This is a Monsanto document? 1 Q. All in all, this could be quite a serious 2 problem, having legal and publicity overtones, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Doctor, do you agree that part of the reason 5 Monsanto exited from selling these open uses was because of 6 public pressure? 7 A. I don't know if it was public pressure. 8 Certainly Monsanto was concerned about legal issues and 9 publicity issues. I don't know if there was actually public 10 pressure, but clearly there was a sense that this was an issue 11 that needed to be dealt with. 12 Q. And they talked about a barrage of negative 13 publicity, right? 14 A. There's a -- I don't rouorber that exact word. 15 but I know there is a memo that talks about a large amount of 16 negative publicity, yes. 17 Q. Okay. But it says: "This brings us to a very 18 serious point. When are we going to tell our customers not to 19 use any Aroclor in any paint formulation that contacts food. 20 feed, or water for animals or humans?" 21 And that's March of 1970? 22 A. Yes, that's when they did it. 2 3 Q. In March of 1970, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Could have done it earlier, right? 26 A. If they had the information that would have 27 triggered that warning, yes. 28 MR. ERIELING: This will need an exhibit number. Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067808 81 8 3 1 THE COURT: 886. And the description of it is? 2 MR. ERIELING: Status of Aroclor. 3 THE COURT: It -will be marked as 886. 4 (Court's Exhibit 886 for identification.) 5 MR. ERIELING: Your Honor, may I approach? 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 MR. ERIELING: Did you say 886? 8 THE WITNESS: 886, correct. 9 MR. ERIELING: Thank you. 10 Q. You've seen this document, doctor? ii A. Yes, I have. I'm reading it to refresh myself. 12 but I have seen the document. 13 Q. It's a Monsanto document, correct? 14 A. Yes, it is. 15 Q. January 29, 1970? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And it's -- well, Papageorge is on it, written 18 by Elmer Wheeler. You talked about those gentlemen? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. It says: "Enclosed is a copy of the rqports 21 from our consulting laboratory indicating the status of the 22 animal toxicity studies that I have summarized the pertinent 2 3 findings separately and as indicated in the table," right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And it says: "Cur interpretation is that the 26 ECBs are exhibiting a greater degree of toxicity in this 27 chronic study than we had anticipated. Secondly, although 28 there are variations depending on species of animals, the ECBs 1 Q. I should have said it' s the meeting between 2 Monsanto and G.E. 3 A. Right. And these are the minutes. 4 Q. That's better, yes. Again, it says status of 5 Aroclor studies at IBT, Table 2, right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. In essence, results reported by Mr. Wheeler on 8 chronic animal toxicity tests and animal rqproducibility 9 studies underway are not as favorable as we had hoped or 10 anticipated. Particularly alarming is evidence of effect on u hatchability and production of thin egg shells regards white 12 Leghorn chickens. The studies involved Aroclor 1242, 1254, 13 and 1260. Seme of the studies will be repeated to arrive at 14 better conclusions." 15 Is that what it says there? 16 A. That's what it says. 17 Q. And that as part of Monsanto's plan, right? 18 A. Well, that's what that sentence says. But I 19 have no idea. obviously, whether it was going to have better 20 conclusions or not. Obviously, that whoever wrote this was 21 hoping, but - 22 Q. I'm just saying -- 2 3 A. That's what the document reads. 24 Q. Okay. Well, you put out a 12-point plan? 25 A. Yes. 26 Q. This is part of the plan? 27 A. Oh, to do feeding studies, yes. 28 Q. And to -- 82 84 1 are about the same as DDT in mammals." 2 That's what they reported? 3 A. That's hew that reads, yes. 4 Q. "We have additional interim data which will 5 perhaps be more discouraging. We are repeating some of the 6 experiments to confirm or deny the earlier findings and are 7 not distributing the early results at this time." 8 Dc you see that, doctor? 9 A. I see that, yes. 10 Q. And that was part of the plan for Monsanto in 11 1970, correct? 12 A. Yes. I'm a little confused by Paragraph 2 and 13 Paragraph 4, but the document says what it says. 14 Q. Right. 208-G. Doctor, you've seen this 15 document before? We talked about it. 16 A. Sure, yes. 17 Q. January 1970, again, right? 18 A. Yes, correct. 19 Q. And this is, I think you said, the presentation 20 in front of General Electric, right? 21 A. Well, it's the minutes of the meeting. 22 THE COURT: This is 208-G, as in George? 2 3 MR. ERIELING: That's correct. 24 THE COURT: The description is ECBs in dishwasher 25 detergents? 26 MR. ERIELING: There's reference to that in here. 27 I'm not going to talk about that, but that is the correct 28 item. 1 A. I'm sorry. I misunderstood your question. 2 Q. -- redo them if they don't have favorable 3 results? 4 A. That was not part of the plan. The part of the 5 plan was to do the studies. 6 Q. Okay, doctor. This is P-42. 7 THE COUPT: Exhibit 42? 8 MR. ERIELING: I'm sorry. Exhibit 42. Thank you. 9 Q. This is from F^oruary 16, 1970. It's called 10 the pollution letter? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Have you seen this before? 13 A. Yes, I have. 14 Q. This is Monsanto? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. "Attached is a list of questions and answers 17 which may be asked of you by customers receiving our FCB -- 18 Aroclor FCB letter," right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. All right. "You can give verbal answers. No 21 answers should be given in writing. If the customer asks a 22 question you can't answer or if he wants an answer in writing. 2 3 then send his questions to me, and we will answer frou here. 24 We want to avoid any situation where a customer wants to 25 return fluid. " 26 That's what he writes, right? 27 A. That's what's written there, yes. 28 Q. "The new reformulated products will be Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067809 85 87 1 available 'within a month. We would prefer that the customer 2 use up his current inventory and purchase these other 3 products," right? ,TWhen available." 4 A. Yes, that's what it says. 5 Q. "He will then tq? off with the new fluid and 6 eventually all Aroclor 1254 and Aroclor 1260 will be out of 7 his system We don't want to take fluid back. Sell him the 8 replacement." It says: "We must be very positive in our 9 approach with each customer. " 10 It does say, just to -- it says: "We, your customer ii and Monsanto, are not interested in using a product which may 12 present a probleu to our environment. We certainly have no 13 reason to be defensive or apologetic about making this change. 14 The decision to change makes good sense, and our customers 15 should commend us, not criticize our actions. No one has 16 forced us to make this change." 17 That's what it says? 18 A. That's what it says, yes. 19 Q. And at the bottom, it says: "We have no 20 replacement products for 1254, 1260. We will continue to make 21 these products; however, customers will have to use their own 22 judgment on continued use. We can't afford to lose $1 of 2 3 business. Our attitude in discussing this subject with our 24 customer will be the deciding factor in our success or failure 25 in retaining all our present business. Good luck." 26 And that's by Mr. Johnson? 27 A. Yes. 28 Q. Did you know Mr. Johnson? 1 Q. "What we have been trying to point out is that 2 the savings in drum costs is of no consequence against losing 3 our customers in Brazil and elsewhere. More recently we have 4 emphasized the FCB pollution does not allow us to take 5 liberties with leaking drums, domestic or international. This 6 drum thing has been in the mill a long time. For reasons 7 given above, we must now act. 8 "Please determine what is a more suitable drum and 9 advise so that this can be put into service." 10 That's the end of 1971, right? u A. Okay, yes. 12 Q. Okay. Last one. This is Exhibit 381. This is 13 frcm the environmental defense fund, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. This is dated October 27, 1971, right? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. So this is over a year after the environmental 18 defense fund letter that you showed the jury, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. And it's written to Dr. Papageorge? 21 A. Mr. Papageorge, yes. 22 Q. "We wish to register with you the grave concern 2 3 of the environmental defense fund over Monsanto's refusal to 24 make available to the scientific ccmmunity production and 25 usage data in respect of FCB." 26 That's when it says, right? 27 A. That's what it says. 28 Q. "Accordingly, we join in the request made of 86 88 1 A. I did. 2 Q. Okay. Two more. This is frcm 1971. You know 3 this document, right? 4 A. Yes, I do. 5 Q. This is frcm Mr. Benignus? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. "We have the following message frcm Brazil. 8 All Monsanto customers are ccmplaining that too many drums 9 arrive leaking." 10 And it's talking about FOB drums, right? 11 A. Yes, it is. 12 Q. "They state that our drums are much lighter 13 than the German drums. This means that we use too-thin walled 14 drums." 15 Oh, this is Exhibit 75, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 Q. BY MR. FRIELING: "This means that we use 18 too-thin walled drum, which more easily punctures. I don't 19 know for how many years now I have reported that our drums are 20 inferior to our competitors' packages, both from the 21 standpoint of strength and quality. Perhaps you don't know 22 that our Japanese associates who had used the same drum 2 3 construction as we use encountered so much trouble with drum 24 breakage on shipuents to India that they had to adept a more 25 suitable package. I am aware that we are using the cheapest 26 possible drum." 27 That's what it says? 28 A. Yes. 1 you by Dr. Robert Risebrough" -- that's the scientist who 2 discovered it in California in 1969, right? 3 A. Correct, yes. 4 Q. Under the date of October 25, 1971, "that 5 Monsanto reconsider its position in this matter." That's what 6 the environmental defense fund is saying in 1971? 7 A. In this particular letter, yes. 8 Q. "The possible dimensions of the contamination 9 problem with respect to FCB can be evaluated rationally and 10 calmly only if all the relevant data are made available. 11 Conversely, continued secrecy where important data are 12 concerned can only operate to produce scientific guesswork and 13 unnecessarily severe regulation of FCB production. Surely it 14 is in the interest of no one, least of all Monsanto, that this 15 should occur." 16 That's what they are telling Monsanto in October of 17 1971, right? 18 A. That's what the EDF letter says, yes. 19 MR. FRIELING: Your Honor, I will pass the witness. 20 THE COURT: Any redirect, Mr. Upshaw? 21 MR. UPSHAW: Sure. 22 2 3 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 24 BY MR. UPSHAW: 25 Q. May it please the Court, ladies and gentlemen. 26 Ml right. Let's start where you left off. 27 Dr. Kaley. You left off with an EDF letter. Exhibit 381, 28 right? Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067810 89 91 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. The date on that -was October 27, 1971, right? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. In fact, the data that they are referring to. 5 the EDF, had already been released to the task force, had it 6 not? 7 A. Yes. I believe so, yes. 8 Q. And we actually had here -- it needs an exhibit 9 number, your Honor, if I may. 10 THE COURT: 887. ii MR. UPSHAW: It's a press release, Novarber 30, 12 1971. 13 THE COURT: All right. I'm sorry. 1971, you said? 14 MR. UPSHAW: Yes, your Honor. 15 (Court's Exhibit 887 for identification.) 16 Q. BY MR. UPSHAW: So that was October 17th, the 17 EDF letter of 1971. And this was from November 30, 1971. And 18 in this photograph here, this is a press release. You've seen 19 this before? 20 A. I have. 21 Q. Okay. And in this press release, what is 22 Monsanto saying to the world? 2 3 A. Well, basically they are saying that we already 24 gave this information to the task force. We did it on a 25 confidential basis, but that information had been presented to 26 those government agencies. 27 Q. Right. And, in fact, that's what they are 28 saying here? Monsanto has new chosen to release the figure 1 that situation could have occurred. Then there would have 2 been no reason for such a plan. 3 Q. Co you know of any other company in the 1930's 4 that had a plan not to pollute? 5 A. Not that I'm aware of, no. 6 Q. 40's? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Or the 50's? 9 A. Not that I'm aware of. 10 Q. In 1953 Monsanto created a position. What was u that position? 12 A. Pollution Control Specialist. 13 Q. And were they the first company to do so? 14 A. As far as I know, that's correct. 15 Q. Now, you were asked a question regarding paints 16 and varnishes and so on. And the question was were there 17 paints before PCBs and have there been paints after PCBs, 18 correct? 19 A. Right, yes. 20 Q. The fact is formulators use FCBs for the 21 specific properties that they could provide to certain paints 22 and varnishes, correct? 2 3 A. That's my understanding, yes. 24 Q. And when those FCBs were no longer available. 25 did they turn to other products that could do souething 26 similar to FCBs? 27 A. Well, if there was something similar there, but 28 in many cases there weren't is what I understand. 90 92 1 publicly? 2 A. Yes, that's correct. 3 THE COURT: Make sure the clerk gets a copy of that 4 as well. 5 MR. FRIELING: May I just re-ask what exhibit number 6 that was? 7 THE COURT: It was 887. 8 MR. FRIELING: Thank you. 9 Q. BY MR. UPSHAW: Okay. So let me walk through 10 some of the things we talked about with Mr. Frieling. You 11 start off talking a little bit about the Yusho incident. You 12 remember that was brought up right after lunch? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And that incident, was it determined that FCBs 15 were the cause of those illnesses? 16 A. No, it was determined that a degradation 17 product of the PCBs caused by air leaking into the system was 18 the actual cause. 19 Q. Was there a plan, just going back, was there a 20 plan to prevent pollution of the werld before the 1960's? 21 A. Not any written plan, not that I knew of, no. 22 Q. Did Monsanto know in the 30's, 40's, the 50's. 2 3 even the 60's, that PCBs were getting out and becoming a 24 global contaminant? 25 A. No, we did not realize that, no. 26 Q. Any idea that there was a need for some plan. 27 some global plan prior to Jensen and Widmark in 1966? 28 A. No. Monsanto had no reason to believe that 1 Q. And as far as you know, was there a one-for-one 2 substitute available? 3 A. No, I don't believe there was. 4 Q. So the fact to say that because there were 5 paints before and paints after, meaning FCBs were irrelevant. 6 is that a true statement? 7 A. No. I mean, obviously, the formulators were 8 making their choice based on properties that FCBs alone could 9 bring to their product. 10 Q. Okay. Let's go to Exhibit 312. All right. 11 You were shown Exhibit 312, which had to deal with food 12 packaging. And you spent seme time on this patent. 13 Co you recall that? 14 A. I do. 15 Q. And I highlighted a portion that you went over. 16 that another object is to provide adhesive composition -- I 17 can't read it myself -- which may be used for paper products 18 such as food containers and the like. 19 That term tasteless and odorless, tell the jury 20 about that. Was that something that carried through with FCBs 21 whenever people were discussing then? 22 A. Well, it did. It's kind of interesting in the 2 3 30's and earlier and even later into the 40's, sounds weird 24 now, but one of the things chenists would do would be actually 25 if they had a product that they -- obviously, if they knew it 26 was going to burn their tongue, they vjouldn't, but they would 27 actually taste the material. So they kind of knew it was 28 tasteless. Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067811 93 95 1 We talked about the odor, that FCBs really don't 2 have much odor at roan temperature. If you heat them up, as 3 in a heat transfer systou, they do. 4 So those kind of words just got applied to ECBs, and 5 then just continued to be applied really throughout the 6 lifetime of the FCBs. You see that often in documents. 7 Q. Right. Any evidence that this patent was 8 commercialized at all? 9 A. I've never seen any, no. 10 Q. And that wasn't the only application here. ii because it says another object is to provide. And you see 12 that? A further object is to provide. 13 A. Right. 14 Q. And if you really look down, it says it is also 15 a further object. Every object is a different opportunity to 16 use this patent? 17 A. Right. And that's kind of what patents do. 18 They try to protect every conceivable use of the product so 19 that somdoody else can't take advantage of the -- of the 20 information. 21 Q. Okay. Let's go to 343. And that was the 22 advertisement that you were shown. We didn't spend any time 2 3 on this, you and I, but let's do a little bit now. Not too 24 much. 25 Now, just so we don't have to read through the top. 26 who is this ad directed to? Is this directed to the housewife 27 in 1943? 28 A. No, it's directed to readers of the Post 1 A. Well, a bucket of paint. I don't know. 2 Q. He's got paint, and he can paint the ice box 3 thanks to the phthalic anhydride. What's that? 4 A. It's an industrial chemical. It's actually a 5 very reactive industrial chemical. 6 Q. Could Pa go out and buy that at the hardware 7 store? 8 A. No, certainly not. 9 Q. Could Pa go out and buy ECBs at the hardware 10 store? u A. No, he could not. 12 Q. Is this another ad from the Saturday Evening 13 Post? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And it's by what company? 16 A. Union Carbide. That was another large chemical 17 company that was in existence then. 18 THE COURT: Would that be 729? 19 MR. UPSHAW: Yes, your Honor. 729. 20 Q. Now, let me zoom in. Okay. It says where it's 21 highlighted: "Free. Learn how alloys, carbons, gases. 22 chemicals, and plastics improve many things that you use. Ask 2 3 for the 1955 edition of Products and Process Booklet XB." 24 Now would the products and process booklet be 25 something that Ma and Pa could pick up at the hardware store? 26 A. Well, not the booklet or the products that were 27 in it probably. 28 Q. Just one more. We're looking at 728 here. One 94 96 1 Dispatch that would have some function in industry. 2 Q. Okay. Saturday Evening Post. 3 A. Right. 4 Q. You said the Post Dispatch. 5 A. Okay. 6 Q. Different publication? 7 A. Different Posts. Yes. I'm sorry. The 8 Saturday Evening Post. 9 Q. Did the Saturday Evening Post in fact have 10 other industrial ads in it? 11 A. Yes, we have found a number of those, yes. 12 Q. Was the purpose of advertising in the Saturday 13 Evening Post to not only advertise things that could be given 14 to consumers, but things that captains of industry could be 15 interested in? 16 A. Yes, because it was widely read by lots and 17 lots of people. 18 Q. Let's look at same of those other ads. 19 Your Honor, I'm referring to Exhibit D 727. 20 THE COURT: What was it again? 21 MR. UPSHAW: 737. 22 Q. I believe this was also from the 40's. And I 2 3 don't recall off the top of my head. Do you recall the exact 24 year -- 25 A. I do not. 26 Q. And the ad says: "Look, Ms, Pa's painting the 27 ice box again." 28 And what's Pa painting the ice box with? 1 of the many reasons I show this is because I like this kid. 2 All right. So this is an ad, I believe it's from 3 the 50's, correct? 4 A. Yes, I believe so. 5 Q. Also in the Saturday Evening Post? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And it's by which company there? 8 A. This is America Cyanamid. 9 Q. And he's got static in his hair, but people at 10 Cyanamid Research have developed an anti-static agent called 11 cationic. Again, something people could pick up at a hardware 12 store? 13 A. No, they certainly could not. 14 Q. You looked at, again, the Glocoat research 15 report? 16 A. Yes, I did. 17 Q. Co you remember that? 18 A. Yes, I do. 19 Q. I'm not going to put that up again. Any 20 indication that there were sales for commercial use from that 21 research report? 22 A. No. It was clearly titled research. 2 3 Q. Okay. And you also referred to -- I think you 24 talked about shower curtains from that other idea, and it says 25 okay, a shower curtain. 26 A. Yes. 27 Q. Are you aware that their bulletins actually 28 recommend a different plasticizer for use in shower curtains? Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067812 97 99 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. A plasticizer that didn't include FCBs? 3 A. That's correct, yes. 4 Q. All right. Let's talk about pesticides for a 5 second. You ware shewn Exhibit 188, that was talking about 6 the sale of FCBs for pesticide extenders. 7 Remember that whole conversation? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You also showed a document in your direct. Hew 10 many actual companies purchased FCBs as a pesticide extender? ii A. As far as Monsanto could tell at the time of 12 the survey, one. 13 Q. One. 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. Okay. Let's go to 457. You were shown 457, 16 and it was a document from 1951. You need me to pull that 17 out, or -- 18 A. I know what you're talking about. 19 Q. All right. 1951. It's a guide for formulating 20 Santobane. And you were shown -- I believe it was a solvent 21 chart. Let me show you what you saw first. And you were 22 pointed to the Aroclors there, right? 2 3 A. That's correct, yes. 24 Q. Okay. New, let's stqp back frau that. The 25 page right before that is talking about solution formations. 26 And it says at the bottom "Since exclusions contain organic 27 solvents or petroleum solvents such as kerosene, they may be 28 harmful to vegetation and therefore are not recomuended for 1 Q. Okay. Now, I think Mr. Frieling said that 2 31 -- he thought 31 percent of the people on the cancer index 3 came from those three plants, right? 4 A. That was his calculation, yes. 5 Q. All right. And in fact they were the three 6 biggest plants in Monsanto, were they not? 7 A. Well, Krurrmrich and Queeny clearly were. 8 Anniston would not have been. 9 Q. And would you have expected that approximately 10 one third of any disease that was found would be in the -- in u sore of the three biggest plants? 12 A. That wouldn't surprise me at all. By far 13 Queeny and Kfummrich were the biggest plants. 14 Q. Do you recall, how many actual lyuphomas did 15 the cancer index shew? 16 A. In total? 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. I don't remember. I've looked at that. I 19 don't rauarber the exact number. 20 21 two? Q. If I said two, would you recall if it was just 22 A. That was the Kfummrich plant. This wasn't the 2 3 whole document That was just at Krurrmrich. 24 Q. Okay. At Kfummrich, which was one of the 25 places that manufactured FCBs, right? 26 A. Yes. 27 Q. How many lymphoma cases did they find? 28 A. Two. 98 100 1 crop work." 2 So are they reconmending any formation with those 3 solvents to be used for crop work? 4 A. No, quite the opposite. 5 Q. "Refined odorless kerosene is the solvent most 6 commonly used for on^step preparation." And then the table 7 following is what we just looked at. Lists the approximate 8 solubility of Santobane as the nurtber of available solvents? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. So they are saying kerosene is prcbably the one 11 you want to use? 12 A. Yes, that was the one by far most widely used. 13 Q. And lastly, I can't tell if it was the front 14 cover or the back cover. Now, we got to get in real close on 15 this. 16 THE COURT: Which exhibit? 17 MR. UPSHAW: Same exhibit, your Honor. 18 Q. And I don't know if this will clear up for us. 19 We've gone beyond the technology. But it says, the 20 highlighted portion: "Avoid contamination of foodstuffs." 21 Do you know what it says? 22 A. Yes, I read it briefly. 2 3 Q. "Avoid contamination of foodstuffs." 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. Okay. You talked a little bit about the cancer 26 index. 27 Do you remember that? 28 A. Yes, I do. 1 Q. And where did they find those lymphomas? 2 A. One was in an office worker, and one was in a 3 laboratory assistant or a laboratory worker. 4 Q. Okay. All right. Just briefly, this whole 5 thing with IBT and slightly tumorigenic. You were asked a 6 kind of series of questions about what you thought about 7 slightly tumorigenic. And if you just saw the term slightly 8 tumorigenic, dees it tell you as much information as the other 9 term does not appear to be carcinogenic? 10 A. I do not believe so, no. 11 Q. Why? 12 A. Well, because the tests were being determined 13 to see whether FCBs caused cancer itself. So that would be. 14 in my opinion. it would be what the reader was interested in. 15 Does it cause cancer. 16 Q. And at the end of the day, was all the data 17 provided to the EPA? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. They could make up their mind whatever they 20 wanted to call it? 21 A. It was provided for anybody that asked for 22 those rqoorts. It was provided to the task force. 2 3 Q. All right. So let's move forward. 377 will be 24 next. You were shown this particular document. 25 Do you remember this? 26 A. I do. 27 Q. Okay. Who was this written by? 28 A. I believe it was Elmer Wheeler. I'm not sure. Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067813 101 103 1 Q. No. This was -- 2 A. Oh, this is the Boquist. 3 Q. Okay. Bcquist. This was Boquist. 4 A. Yes, sorry. 5 Q. Boquist was not an employee of Monsanto? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. He worked for whom? 8 A. For Westinghouse. 9 Q. Westinghouse. Do you have any idea of the 10 qualifications of Mr. Bcquist? ii A. No, I know nothing more about him than his name 12 and the fact that he worked for Westinghouse. 13 Q. You know nothing about even was he qualified to 14 write this? 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. All right. Silo paint. You went to example 17 236. So there was sane discussion here about silo paint, and 18 then let's go to the end. And it's Dr. Kelly who says when 19 are we going to tell our customers not to use Arcelor in any 20 paint formulations that contain food, feed, or water for 21 animals or humans? He's actually ten years behind the fact. 22 isn't he? 2 3 A. Yes, but the bulletins had been saying that for 24 some time. 25 Q. Right. The bulletin from 1960 tells people not 26 to use Aroclors in silo paint, does it not? 27 A. I believe so, yes. 28 Q. I'll show you P-155. It's a 1960 bulletin. 1 Arcelor, right? 2 A. They certainly should know that, yes. 3 Q. 886 you were shown. You said -- do you 4 remember looking at this letter? 5 A. I do. 6 Q. And you said. Paragraph 2 didn't go with 7 Paragraph 4. And really, my only question here was were 8 subsequent studies done to prove what's said in Paragraph 3 9 wrong? 10 A. I'm sorry? u Q. Were subsequent studies done to prove what is 12 said in Paragraph 3 wrong? 13 A. Well, I guess I don't really understand your 14 question. There were other studies done. I don't know that 15 they -- as I sit here, I don't know whether they proved that 16 what you're talking about. You're talking about the FCBs are 17 about the same as DDT in mammals, the toxicity? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. I don't really recall the specific data on 20 that. 21 Q. Didn't Risebrough prove that? 22 A. Well, Pis^srough was addressing birds more than 2 3 mammals. This says mammals. So he was talking about eggshell 24 thinning in oirds. And that was proven wrong. 25 Q. And that was proven wrong. Because Ris^srough 26 initially thought that the thinning eggshells was from FCBs, 27 right? 28 A. Yes. 102 104 1 Do you recall this? 2 A. Yes, I do. 3 Q. On Page 45 of that exhibit, it talks about 4 solubility? 5 A. Yes, this is another table of solubility, yes. 6 Q. Now, we need to explain to the jury before we 7 get to what we're talking about here. So silage, when it's 8 put in a silo , creates -- sits there, and it gets hot? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. It gets nasty. And what does it create? 11 A. Well, it creates lots of different things. It 12 creates a number of acids, one of which is acetic acid. 13 Q. And you know, if you're painting inside of a 14 silo, if somebody decides to paint inside of a silo, they 15 would know that acetic acid is one of the by-products of that 16 mixture goinc in there? 17 A. He certainly should, yes. 18 Q. So what is Monsanto telling people, and you can 19 read this chart better than I. What is Monsanto telling folks 20 about whether or not they should put Aroclors next to acetic 21 acid? 22 A. Well, if you look under the Arcelor 1254, it 2 3 says S, and. I mean, that means soluble. 24 Q. It means you shouldn't use it next to acetic 25 acid, right? 26 A. That would be the correct interpretation, yes. 27 Q. Okay. So if someone is creating a paint for a 28 silo, and they read the bulletin, they would know not to use 1 Q. Risebrough did. And, in fact, it turned out to 2 be from DDT. 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. 42. Exhibit 42. Okay. This one says attached 5 is a list of questions and answers. And underlined here, we 6 don't want to take fluids back. But, in fact, Monsanto did 7 take fluids sack, right? 8 A. Yes, we talked about the reclamation program. 9 Q. They took it back in large quantities? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. Now, Exhibit 75, leaky drums. All 12 right. This was from Mr. Benignus. Oh, I'm sorry. This was 13 December 17, 1971? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. And he's talking about leaky drums to Brazil. 16 Do you recall that? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Now, let's look at Exhibit 697, the day before. 19 right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. You've seen this letter before? 22 A. Yes, I have. 2 3 Q. This says we know about the problem, and we're 24 fixing it, right? 25 A. Basically, that's correct. 26 Q. They are replacing them. They understand 27 there's metal fatigue, and they are finding the day before 28 that they have done testing, and they are changing the drums. Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067814 105 107 1 correct? 2 A. Yes. That's what this memo says. 3 Q. "Beginning with drum shipments received after 4 Novorber 9th, we have been using all 18-gauge drums excqot for 5 16 danger drums in non -- 16-gauge non-cushion bottom head. 6 To date, no rqoorts have keen received of the new drums 7 failing," correct? 8 A. That's hew it reads, yes. 9 Q. So actually. Dr. Benignus was a day off. 10 A. Well, there was some confusion about what was ii going on. That's correct. 12 MR. UPSBAW: All right. If I could have a moment. 13 your Honor. 14 Q. All right. So the first document you were 15 shown to begin with in your cross-examination was 119. It was 16 this radio interview of the CEO? 17 A. The transcript, yes. 18 Q. And the CEO made seme carments, and in fact 19 made a comment about there being a scientific void, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Now, this was 1977? 22 A. Correct. 2 3 Q. Monsanto is no longer making FCBs at the time? 24 A. I don't remember the -- 25 Q. It was December of -- 26 A. Yes, they had quit, yes. 27 Q. /tad is hindsight 20/20? 28 A. Often. 1 OPEN COURT OUTSIDE THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY: 2 3 THE COURT: In the case of Dauber versus Monsanto, 4 the record will reflect all counsel are present. All jurors 5 and alternates are out of the courtroom. 6 Do we have anything further on the -- I haven't 7 excused the witness yet because I don't knew. Do we need him. 8 depending on this ruling? 9 MR. FRIELING: Yes is the answer. 10 THE COURT: Okay. Do we have anything further? u MS. BUCK: I do, you Honor, if I may be heard. 12 MR. FRIELING: And if I could be heard just for a 13 moment, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: First of all, I got to find out what I'm 15 getting. 16 MR. FRIELING: I don't know. I haven't seen it. It 17 wasn't directly about that. 18 THE COURT: This is about the alleged privileged 19 nature of the item. 20 Ms. Buck, what are you giving to me? 21 MS. BUCK: Your Honor, I'm giving you a couple of 22 things. For context, I'm giving you another memo that I 2 3 believe is dated January 25th, 1972. The document we were 24 talking about specifically references that as the subject 25 line, your mono of January 25th, 1972. If you will note in 26 that one, it specifically says -- 27 THE COURT: One or more of our attorneys 28 representing us in various lawsuits involving FCBs have 106 108 1 Q. Is the CEO at the time looking back frau a 2 position of 1977 and saying well, as we've all said, if I kneu 3 then what I know today, I would have done things differently? 4 A. Right. Although he wasn't there during the 5 early 70's either. So yes, certainly. 6 Q. So he didn't even have firsthand knowledge? 7 A. Not for most of that period. The early days 8 for sure not. I don't remember when he came, but it was the 9 early 70's, as I recall. 10 Q. But the final point is if you'd agree with me. 11 Dr. Kaley, that this is the CEO who is looking backwards 12 sitting where he's sitting in 1977, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Not taking into account what people kneiv back 15 in the 30' s. 40's, or 50's? 16 A. That's absolutely correct. 17 Q. Or 60's, up until '66. 18 A. Correct. 19 MR. UPSH7W: Thank you, your Honor. No further 20 questions. 21 THE COURT: Thank you. 22 Anything further, Mr. Frieling? 2 3 MR. FRIELING: I have no questions. 24 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll 25 take the evening recess. Keqo in mind the admonition. See 26 you all back at 8:30 tomorrow morning. 27 I'll stay on the bench. 28 THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELL) IN 1 requested the following information. 2 MS. BUCK: Thank you, your Honor. That was outside 3 counsel talking to inside counsel saying they wanted sane 4 information investigated and collected for purposes of 5 litigation. So if you then look to the February 22nd memo. 6 which is the document we're talking about. That investigation 7 and collection was done. It was returned back to Mr. Stohr. 8 He was in-house counsel who was the one, according to the 9 previous memo that I gave you, asked that that be done, again. 10 for outside counsel for purposes of pending litigation. 11 They also gave you copies of the privilege log that 12 was provided to counsel in this case that identifies these 13 documents and gives the claims of privilege, both 14 attorney-client and work product. 15 I have also given you, for the record, we did go 16 back and look at Smith, and it was attempted to be -- this 17 document was attempted to be used with Dr. Kaley during his 18 cross-examination in the Smith case. 19 Immediately upon that attempt, we lodged an 20 objection. We had a sid*3sar. We had argument. At that point 21 in time. Judge Hogue considered it, sealed it, and then it was 22 not allowed to be used. And we came back and made a formal 2 3 motion for it to be sealed, which, at that point in time. 24 plaintiffs' counsel did not object to. 25 But it was certainly during the cross-examination of 26 Dr. Kaley giving some other testimony, and Judge Hogue 27 disallowed it, finding that it was in fact privileged. Again, 28 it's consistent with this order -- Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067815 109 111 1 THE COURT: Hold on. Let me read the material. 2 HE. BUCK: Sure. 3 THE COURT: Do -we knew -who Don Roush and Jim Roder 4 are? 5 HE. BUCK: They would both be Monsanto employees in 6 various levels of management. And I do have, your Honor, if 7 you want additional memos that do state these memos that deal 8 with the same issue, but again, clearly talk about pulling 9 together certain information for purposes of defending the 10 pending litigation. ii THE COURT: Well, I'm not so concerned about the 12 work product. That's why I was asking. I assume the lawyer 13 himself did not go out and do the investigation if there was 14 material that Monsanto had that formed the basis of what he 15 did. His communication with his client would be privileged. 16 The underlying documentation would not be. 17 Let me read the transcript quickly. 18 I assume that Exhibit 750 was the document that I 19 saw earlier today that I placed under seal? 20 HE. BUCK: That's correct, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: All right. I read the transcript, and I 22 gather that Judge Hogue did find it privileged. I'm also 2 3 looking at the order in the Hammonds versus Monsanto case from 24 St. Louis, where it appears, and I assume this is the same 25 document was found to be privileged. 26 It' s troubling, because it clearly is impeachable 27 evidence that could be used to impeach the witness's 28 testimony, what was generally contained in the document. But 1 knew to be wrong. 2 THE COURT: I know what's in that document. Let's 3 assume hypothetically I agree that what's in that document 4 clearly Impeaches the witness's testimony. To sanction them 5 or take any other action, I would have to rely on that 6 document. 7 That document is privileged and cannot be 8 considered. I can look at it in camera to come to the 9 conclusion as to privilege. But you are asking me to use it 10 for a substantive reason. And having ruled that it' s u privileged, I can't use it. Just as you cannot use it to 12 impeach the witness. 13 MR. FRIELING: Two things, your Honor. First is, if 14 you would allow me, I would like the opportunity to provide 15 some briefing on this, because I haven't done that. The 16 second thing is what about the underlying investigation and 17 that material? There's got to be something that's not -- 18 THE COURT: How long has this litigation been going 19 on? 20 MR. FRIELING: It's years. 21 THE COURT: And you haven't came across it yet, I 22 guess. 2 3 MR. FRIELING: I haven't seen it. 24 THE COURT: I can't help you there. That's a 25 discovery issue. If you want to file a short brief. I'll 26 consider the brief. I will not excuse the witness at this 27 time. 28 MR. FRIELING: Okay. Your Honor, thank you. 110 112 1 it appears to be a privileged document on this minimal record 2 from Monsanto's lawyer to Monsanto. Monsanto, being the 3 client, is the holder of the privilege and has raised the 4 privilege. I think I have to find that it's privileged. 5 Do you want to be heard, Mr. Frieling? 6 MR. FRIELING: Briefly, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Sure. 8 MR. FRIELING: So I'm concerned because your ruling. 9 and I understand your ruling, but what we're saying is because 10 what has happened is we've elicited testimony that is simply 11 false. It's not true. And that was elicited by them, not by 12 me. That was from them. And being a lawyer -- 13 THE COURT: But you knew what he was going to 14 testify to before this because I assume you took his 15 deposition, and he testified -- 16 MR. FRIELING: There's no doubt. But every time he 17 does it, it's wrong. Okay? And what I want, I mean, what are 18 we doing here? I want, as a sanction for that, I want the 19 document so that I can impeach the man, okay? 20 THE COURT: But how do we overcome the privilege? 21 MR. FRIELING: Through a sanction. That's the 22 sanction. 2 3 THE COURT: But you're saying turn over the 24 document. The document is privileged. 25 MR. FRIELING: Sanction the lawyers. That's what 26 I'm asking. 27 THE COURT: And what do I base that sanction on? 28 MR. FRIELING: For eliciting testimony that they 1 THE COURT: All right. And I'll direct that the 2 material which was just handed to me and which I reviewed will 3 also be sealed. So you've got a record somewhere. 4 MS. BUCK: Thank you, your Honor. I would just 5 request that we be given a chance to respond to the brief, at 6 least orally or in writing. 7 THE COURT: Well, I probably -- if I read his brief 8 and have questions, although I'm not sure how much you want to 9 spend on this because it is a very troubling document. 10 MR. FRIELING: Thank you, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Okay. See you guys back 8:30 tomorrow. 12 13 (Proceedings concluded at 5:50 P.M.) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067816 1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 2 FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES 3 DEPARTMENT 3 HON. J. STEPHEN CZULEGER, JUDGE 4 5 RQSLYN DAUBER AND JOHN DI CDSTANZO, ) ) 6) PLAINTIFFS, ) 7 VS. ) CASE NO. B0483342 ) 8) MONSANTO COMPANY, ET AL., ) 9) DEFENDANTS. ) 10 ) ) 11 12 13 14 I, MARK SCHWEITZER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER PRO TEM 15 OF THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF O^IEORNIA, COUNTY OF 16 IDS ANGELES, DO HEREBY CERTIFY THAT THE FOREGOING TRANSCRIPT, 17 DATED MARCH 22, 2016, P.M. SESSION, COMPRISES A EULL, TRUE, 18 AND CORRECT TRANSCRIPT OF THE PROCEEDINGS HELD IN THE 19 ABOVE-ENTITLED CAUSE. 20 DATED THIS 22ST DAY OF MVCH, 2016. 21 22 '$$88, SffiKKSWf, 3S8L SB?> S&M.. 23 24 25 26 27 28 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067817 1 $1 85:22 $16000 22:16 $2 24:13 '66 106:17 '92 27:10 '97 27:11,13 30's 39:1,4,10 41:16 46:26 47:27 90:22 92:23 106:15 (9) 350pound 53:16 40's 39:1,28 48:1 59:20 66:20 67:26 90:22 91:6 92:23 94:22 106:15 (11) 089 5:14 12point 83:24 16gauge 105:5 17th 89:16 18gauge 105:4 1930's 12:23 25:11 34:18 35:8,12 38:22 39:28 41:15 67:21 77:16 91:3 (11) 1940's 12:25 35:1441:17 43:2 (4) 50's 39:1,28 59:19 66:20 67:28 90:22 91:8 96:3 106:15 (9) 60's 39:2 59:19 68:2 90:23 106:17 (5) 70's 39:2 40:9 68:6,12,16 69:19 106:5,9 (8) 9th 105:4 above 87:7 aboveentitled 113:19 1950's 12:27 35:18 45:1,3 59:9 (5) 1960's 16:8 90:20 absence 48:4 absolutely 20:10 25:10 29:9 106:16 (4) 1970's 13:28 41:11 1970ish 78:19 208g 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85:22 after 5:9 17:3 22:8 38:3 39:22,23 43:21 52:25 73:2 87:17 90:12 91:17 92:5 105:3 (14) afternoon 8:14,15 61:6 again 15:23 16:5 18:3 19:5,19 31:27 34:13,27 38:11 46:27 48:21 53:20 63:12 66:7,10 68:12 73:17 77:16 82:17 83:4 94:20,27 96:11,14,19 108:9,27 109:8 (28) against 18:2 87:2 age 66:11 agencies 89:26 agency 14:8 agent 96:10 ago 3:4 9:28 10:11,13 31:24 (5) agree 3:17 9:2 12:22 16:20 18:12,16,22 19:11,26 20:2,4,9 21:24 32:15 34:22 35:1 38:2 41:20 42:15 43:14 44:7 45:13 47:12 54:6 59:9 67:6 70:11 74:21 80:4 106:10 111:3 (31) agreed 19:27 22:12 24:14 40:3,4 (5) agriculture 57:2 ahead 60:8 63:28 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067818 2 air 15:28 90:17 al 113:8 alabama 25:13 26:8 alarming 83:10 albany 21:16 alerted 76:18 alleged 107:18 allow 47:14 87:4 111:14 allowed 16:3 17:4 24:7,8 108:22 (5) alloys 95:21 almost 70:9 71:1 alone 76:1 92:8 along 2:15 18:22 already 66:22 89:5,23 also 4:27 10:9,10 21:1823:21 53:14 71:17 72:10,14 73:1,27 79:17 93:14 94:22 96:5,23 97:9 108:11,15 109:22 112:3 (21) alternates 1:13 8:4 61:12 107:5 (4) although 81:27 106:4 112:8 always 12:4,13 am 8:16,23 10:5,11 12:19 16:14 22:28 23:3,26 24:24 25:231:18 32:21 43:16 50:12,17 61:21 63:20 66:1 67:20 86:25 (21) america 96:8 american 15:25,25,25 among 17:11 43:11 57:26 amount 9:6 58:26 80:15 analysis 64:7 analytical 72:21 analyze 17:12 anderson 48:20 angeles 1:3 113:2,16 anhydride 95:3 animal 57:6 81:22 83:8,8 (4) animals 79:13 80:20 81:28 101:21 (4) anniston 25:12 26:1,5,8 27:18 29:18 46:20 66:23 67:8 70:5 99:8 (11) annual 51:20 another 5:8 7:22 11:15 25:6 46:9 65:12 67:1 92:16 93:11 95:12,16 102:5 107:22 (13) answer 19:18 47:14 64:16 69:8 84:22,22,23 107:9 (8) answers 84:16,20,21 104:5 (4) 40:17,20 41:4 42:1443:13 44:5,11 49:19 52:26 72:26 73:2 (14) applied 93:4,5 anticipated 81:27 83:10 antistatic 96:10 apply 75:5 approach 5:23 81:5 85:9 anybody 33:4 63:7 100:21 appropriate 10:21,22 18:24 anymore 3:6 28:18 appropriately 29:18 anyone 45:20 anything 17:28 106:22 107:6,10 (4) anyway 34:18 79:19 apart 6:23 apologetic 85:13 apologize 8:5 apparently 15:21 29:2 48:9 56:1 65:25 (5) approximate 98:7 approximately 24:13 45:2 56:17 65:26 72:26 99:9 (6) area 25:24 60:6 area's 15:3 argue 70:26 arguing 25:10 argument 4:21 108:20 appear 7:4 59:15 73:24 74:9,22,28 75:7,11,16,27 100:9(11) appears 55:10 109:24 110:1 application 39:27 40:10,11 41:7 42:3,6,9,17 44:28 46:23 93:10 (11) applications 39:14,20,20 argumentative 50:16 74:25 aroclor 44:15 52:8,11 54:10,26 77:1 79:6 80:19 81:2 83:5,12 84:18 85:6,6 101:19 102:22 103:1 (17) aroclors 47:3 49:8,9 54:27 57:23 60:26 97:22 101:26 102:20 (9) aronson 9:28 around 42:26 51:13 arrive 83:13 86:9 article 29:12,27 30:5 76:6 (4) ascertain 69:20 ask 32:22 33:9,16 50:18 59:16 74:20,26 95:22 (8) asked 4:18 47:18,21 71:8 73:16 74:13,14 84:17 91:15 100:5,21 108:9 (12) asking 13:17 15:19 19:2 29:11 37:15 109:12 110:26 111:9 (8) asks 84:21 asserted 3:17 assess 31:1 assist 44:18 assistant 100:3 associated 28:20 associates 86:22 association 29:28 32:2 assume 6:11 36:13 60:9 67:16,17,18 109:12,18,24 110:14 111:3 (11) assurance 20:13 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067819 3 assure 57:9 ate 16:17 63:16 atmosphere 63:22 attached 84:16 104:4 attempt 108:19 attempted 5:1 108:16,17 attend 9:22 21:8 22:13 attended 10:12 21:9 attendee 21:19 attitude 85:23 attorney 3:13 6:7 23:18,20 (4) attorneyclient 4:17 7:1 108:14 attorneys 10:18,20,23,23 11:2 107:27 (6) authors 30:7 automatically 45:15 available 85:1,3 87:24 88:10 91:24 92:2 98:8 (7) avoid 19:18 84:24 98:20,23 (4) awaiting 7:18 aware 21:5 32:19 45:7 63:6,14,18 86:25 91:5,9 96:27(10) away 35:3 59:11,12 back 3:3,8,18 4:20 11:4,4,5,13 30:9 32:3,9,12 34:18 37:26 40:5,9 46:26 48:21 55:3 61:7 68:19 73:12,23 77:24 79:8 85:7 90:19 97:24 98:14 104:6,7,9 106:1,14,26 108:7,16,22 112:11 (39) backup 6:12 backwards 106:11 bad 29:6 56:16 balanced 29:15 banned 41:21 bar 73:7 barrage 80:12 base 110:27 based 18:9 59:16 74:9 92:8 (4) basically 19:12 20:24 35:1 89:23 104:25 (5) basis 89:25 109:14 bates 3:22,24 4:9 5:11,13 7:11 (6) bc483342 1:1 113:7 bear 39:12 became 16:12 17:2 24:12 because 1:20 9:5 17:8 19:7 28:17 34:27 40:27 47:7 51:13 55:22 60:3,28 63:1 70:27 72:22 73:20 80:5 92:4 93:11 94:16 96:1 100:12 103:25 107:7 109:26 110:8,9,14 111:15 112:9 (30) becoming 90:23 before 1:15,19 5:3,5,9 8:16,28 14:2,13 19:20 23:1741:1945:27 46:4 52:27,28 54:21 56:6 61:23 62:4 76:4 78:25 82:15 84:12 89:19 90:20 91:17 92:5 97:25 102:6 104:18,21,27 110:14(34) began 22:7 24:20 38:3 42:25 45:9 (5) begin 105:15 beginning 45:1 58:12 105:3 behalf 8:25 33:2 behind 45:28 101:21 being 5:20 6:17 18:5 38:21 41:14,14 47:6,21 48:24 49:28 50:13,13 51:7 54:8 58:3 62:27 63:22 100:12 105:19 110:2,12 (21) believe 3:13,28 5:5 9:4 10:14 11:14,16 13:15,20 14:3,19 17:12 18:1421:10 23:13,15,23 27:20 29:5 37:27 38:9,17 40:2 45:12,27 50:14 52:17,19 53:19 55:2 58:11,24 59:18 63:23 66:19 68:23 69:6 70:6 72:28 73:3,12 89:7 90:28 92:3 94:22 96:2,4 97:20 100:10,28 101:27 107:23 (52) believes 33:10 34:9 bench 106:27 benefits 22:3 benign 75:5 benignus 42:28 86:5 104:12 105:9 (4) benzene 36:12,28 37:2,9,13 39:5 (6) best 4:1,6 better 15:26 83:4,14,19 102:19 (5) between 5:17 14:15 29:28 30:20 71:18 79:18 83:1 (7) beyond 98:19 big 9:3 11:27 biggest 99:6,11,13 bioaccumulate 37:16 biodegrade 37:28 38:10 biologically 35:9 biologist 17:5 bioresistant 43:21 biphenyl 36:14 37:3,7 biphenyls 36:28 37:1 61:1 76:9(4) birds 103:22,24 bit 20:21 25:18 35:22 37:25 39:18,18 49:13 90:11 93:23 98:25 (10) blackwell 23:7,9,24,27 (4) blame 8:7 blood 30:1 bloomington 15:2,4 board 79:5 bodies 17:6 64:14,18,26 (4) booklet 95:23,24,26 boost 15:3 boquist 76:6,13 101:2,3,3,5,10(7) boston 10:11 both 4:17 15:28 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067820 4 37:10,16,21 44:4,10 57:3 75:5 86:20 108:13 109:5 (12) bottom 49:13 77:19 79:22 85:19 97:26 105:5 (6) bounds 30:14 box 94:27,28 95:2 brazil 86:7 87:3 104:15 break 1:19 breakage 86:24 brief 111:25,26 112:5,7 (4) briefing 6:23 111:15 briefly 77:14 98:22 100:4 110:6 (4) bring 92:9 brings 25:25 80:17 broad 23:1 brochures 44:15 brought 77:15 90:12 buck 3:26,27 4:17 5:5,13,16,22 6:2,4,6,14,20,28 7:20 10:28 65:15 107:11,20,21 108:2 109:2,5,20 112:4(24) bucket 95:1 bugs 57:4 bulletin 101:25,28 102:28 bulletins 44:12,14 55:10,12,25 58:18 62:1 96:27 101:23 (9) burn 92:26 burning 63:20 business 20:16 85:23,25 buy 95:6,9 buying 15:10 byproducts 102:15 calculation 99:4 California 1:3 72:8 88:2 113:1,15 (5) call 40:5 100:20 called 12:5 39:27 40:12 43:23 66:26 76:15 84:9 96:10 (8) calling 34:6 40:17 calls 50:9,15 74:24 calmly 88:10 came 4:5 43:3 64:18 68:22 70:20,23 99:3 106:8 108:22 (9) camera 1:16,17 4:10 111:8 (4) can 1:16 2:25 4:9,9 5:23,26 6:24,24 13:22 18:7,7,17 20:15 24:18 34:8 35:2,3,5 36:3 43:8 46:1 49:9 53:13 57:14 58:10 63:1 64:19 72:1 73:23 74:1 75:4 77:28 78:11 84:20 87:9 88:9,12 95:2 102:18 110:19 111:8 (41) can't 11:19 35:6 48:6 49:7 50:21 70:26 84:22 85:22 92:17 93:19 98:13 111:11,24 (13) cancer 32:24 33:10 36:17,20 65 :7,23,24,26,28,28 66:11 67:11,15 68:16,18,20 69:5,13,18 70:8,9 77:16 78:8 98:25 99:2,15 100:13,15 (28) cancers 70:14,16,19 71:1 75:5,5,6,8 (8) cannot 6:6 20:6 40:20 50:22 111:7,11 (6) capacitor 15:14 76:24 capacitors 15:16 captains 94:14 carbide 95:16 carbonless 63:21 carbons 95:21 carcinogenesis 77:28 carcinogenic 73:24 74:9,23,28 75:8,11,16,27 77:21 100:9 (10) care 76:19 carefully 29:19 cares 47:10 carloads 52:9 54:14 carpenter 21:5,6,13,25 (4) carried 92:20 case 1:1,2 4:27 5:1 8:2 9:3,6,10 11:2721:10 61:10 107:3 108:12,18 109:23 113:7 (16) cases 35:5 91:28 99:27 catch 36:8 categories 42:19 cationic 96:11 caulk 42:16,21 caulks 40:16 causation 70:10 cause 32:24 33:10,23 34:8,10 36:17,18 58:26 90:15,18 100:15 113:19(12) caused 90:17 100:13 causes 30:19 36:20 75:17,28 (4) center 79:16 ceo 13:26 15:20 16:6 17:24 18:4,12,17 19:6,21,22 20:17 105:16,18 106:1,11 (15) certain 21:27 34:28 38:17,20 54:28 91:21 109:9 (7) certainly 5:19 10:27 16:21 28:13,22,23 30:17 38:1641:1642:23 44:1 46:18 50:25 53:8 57:25 58:5 62:26,28 66:6 71:21 74:11 80:8 85:12 95:8 96:13 102:17 103:2 106:5 108:25 (29) certify 113:16 cetera 76:17 chance 112:5 change 73:24 74:5,5 85:13,14,16 (6) changed 38:14,15 74:3,8 (4) changing 104:28 chart 73:7 97:21 102:19 cheapest 86:25 check 36:24 65:16 checked 70:27 chemical 12:5 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067821 5 17:4 33:25 35:3,23 39:4 64:8 74:21 95:4,5,16 (11) chemically 35:9 chemicals 16:18 28:11,14 35:2,11,15 36:27 95:22 (8) chemist 23:2,4,18,19,28 (5) chemist's 24:4 chemists 23:8 43:24 72:21 92:24 (4) 34:23 claimed 61:1 claims 63:6,14,18 108:13 (4) clarify 3:27 classification 36:23 claw 4:20 clawback 4:24 clawed 3:3 clear 33:24 44:27 48:18 50:2 98:18 (5) coming 63:17 complaining 86:8 confused 82:12 commend 85:15 comment 105:19 commented 51:21 comments 105:18 commercial 48:5 96:20 commercialized 93:8 commercially 4:3 commoner 16:4 completely 77:28 78:12 component 48:14 composition 46:10 92:16 comprises 113:17 computer 24:1 conceivable 45:21 93:18 concentrations 79:15,18 concept 40:26 confusion 105:10 congeners 38:18 connection 54:28 conscious 17:14 consequence 87:2 consider 69:13 79:26 111:26 considerable 9:6 considered 33:8 40:10 108:21 111:8 (4) chewing 47:24 chickens 83:12 chief 14:20 17:21 chloracne 59:14 chlorinated 34:22 38:18 61:1 76:25,27 (5) chlorines 37:13 choice 92:8 choppedup 79:12 chosen 89:28 chromatograph 64:2 chronic 81:27 83:8 circle 21:28 circles 21:27 circumstances clearly 22:3 40:18 41:17 55:25 58:6 75:22 80:10 96:22 99:7 109:8,26 111:4 (12) clerk 7:9,12,13 90:3 (4) client 11:20 14:7 109:15 110:3 (4) close 98:14 closed 17:15 co 5:13 coating 79:24,25 cohorts 30:22 collected 108:4 collection 108:7 come 4:2,4 111:8,21 (4) comes 79:22 commonly 98:6 communication 79:4 109:15 communications 2:19 community 15:3 17:28 29:16,18 87:24 (5) companies 97:10 company 18:1,7 19:1421:21 22:1 25:6 33:5,6,22,25 34:1,7,9,17 51:24 52:3 53:1 72:23 91:3,13 95:15,17 96:7 113:8 (24) company's 17:22 comparison 69:25 competitors' 86:20 compiled 69:24 concepts 12:15 concern 87:22 concerned 80:8 88:12 109:11 110:8 (4) conclude 61:13 concluded 112:13 conclusion 111:9 conclusions 83:14,20 conduct 6:11 19:14 20:16 conducted 17:26 32:1 confidence 61:18 confidential 89:25 confirm 33:5 82:6 consisted 39:5 consistent 31:28 108:28 construction 86:23 consultant 21:22 22:8 23:6 24:12 (4) consulting 22:17 81:21 consumed 4:3 16:21 consumers 94:14 consumption 15:7 contact 4:2,4,6 57:4 (4) contacts 80:19 contain 59:21,23 97:26 101:20 (4) Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067822 6 contained 43:22 59:25 109:28 containers 40:18 46:14 92:18 contaminant 90:24 contaminated 4:2 15:8 16:13,18 17:3 45:20 (6) contaminating 72:8 contamination 16:21 79:7,19 88:8 98:20,23 (6) contemplated 41:13 46:27 47:2,5,6 48:8,9(7) contemplates 46:16 contents 1:21 context 9:25 18:25 107:22 continually 55:8 continue 45:22 48:19 85:20 continued 43:20 76:9 85:22 88:11 93:5 (5) continuing 39:1 69:8 contract 53:16 control 77:3 91:12 conversation 97:7 conversely 88:11 cook 24:8 cooking 16:27 44:26 45:11,16,19 63:1,7,9,16,16 (10) copies 3:7 4:26 108:11 copy 5:6,6,7,21,22 7:23 63:21 81:20 90:3 (9) corn 79:12 corner 11:13 correct 4:12 5:16 6:28 8:16 10:2,17 12:23,25,26,27,28 13:2,4,5,11,14,16, 20 14:2,4,11,27 15:15,18 17:17,18 20:11,18 21:3 22:8,9,18 23:27 24:22,23 25:2,8,17 26:3,9,13,14,20,24 ,25 27:20 28:19 29:24 30:6,26 31:22 34:21,26 35 :13,16,17,19,21,23 39:3,9 41:6,9,12,22 42:4, 7,9,18,23,24,27 44:12,13 45:2,17 46:22 47:9,27,28 48:3,11 49:18 50:12,17 51:2,11 52:12 53:5,7,22 59:4,6,22,24 60:2,3 62:8,17,22 63:5,20 66:16,25 67:20,22,27 68:1,3,24 69:6,11,22,25 70:6,13 71:28 72:28 73:3,13 76:2,11,23 77:16,17,25,26 78:5,6,7,9,10 79:3,21 81:8,13,19 82:11,18,23,27 86:6 87:16 88:3 89:3 90:2 91:14,18,22 96:3 97:3,14,23 98:24 101:6 102:9,26 104:3,14,25 105:1,7,11,22 106:16,18 109:20 113:18 (168) correctly 19:17 62:23 correspondence 5:17 71:18 costanzo 113:5 costs 87:2 could 4:26 9:17 19:4 28:20 40:22 41:1445:5,11,19 47:25 54:16 57:17 58:26 69:20 70:28 71:3 80:1,25 91:1,21,25 92:8 94:13,14 95:6,9,11,25 96:11,13 97:11 100:19 105:12 107:12 109:27 (35) couldn't 18:25 19:2 69:23 counsel 1:12 4:14 5:18 6:2 8:3 22:4 61:11 107:4 108:3,3,8,10,12,24 (14) counselor 54:1 county 4:11,21,27 113:2,15 (5) couple 3:28 8:6 107:21 course 69:2,15 court 1:9,11,17,22,28 2:2,8,11,22,28 3:5,11,16,22,24,26 4:11,16 5:3,10,15,21,24 6:3,5,9,19,26 7:3,9 ,12,16,21,25,28 8:2 14:7 20:27 29:12 33:20,27 36:4,6,8,11 38:13 47:14 48:21,26,28 50:10,16 51:14,16 54:3 60:22 61:4,6,10,16,18 63:11 65:13,19 72:2,5 74:25 75:14 78:23 81:1,3,6 82:22,24 84:7 86:16 88:20,25 89:10,13 90:3,7 94:20 95:18 98:16 106:21,24 107:1,3, 10,14,18,27 109:1,3,11,21 110:7,13,20,23,27 111:2,18,21,24 112:1,7,11 113:1,14,15 (112) court's 7:26 81:4 89:15 courtroom 107:5 cover 37:25 98:14,14 coverage 69:7 covered 20:21 22:1445:12 73:15 (4) create 102:10 created 91:10 creates 102:8,11,12 creating 102:27 credited 43:2 criticize 18:7 85:15 criticized 18:8,17,21 crop 98:1,3 crops 15:8 8:12 105:15 108:18,25 (4) crossexamine 2:26 8:8 err 113:10514 csr 1:5 113:10514 current 3:5 85:2 curtain 96:25 curtains 49:25 50:19 96:24,28 (4) customer 84:21,24 85:1,9,10,24 (6) customers 17:15 44:20,20 78:6,16 80:18 84:17 85:14,21 86:8 87:3 101:19 (12) customers' 38:26 cyanamid 96:8,10 czuleger 1:4 113:3 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067823 7 damage 77:3 danger 105:5 december 14:11 24:21 104:13 105:25 (4) dangers 12:14,19 13:13,19 (4) data 75:21,22 82:4 87:25 88:10,11 89:4 100:16 103:19 (9) date 14:11 16:11 26:12 32:1 52:22 60:8 88:4 89:2 105:6(9) dated 5:28 7:16 54:23 62:6 79:2 87:15 107:23 113:17,20 (9) decide 38:16 decides 102:14 deciding 85:24 decision 17:14 85:14 deduce 69:23 deemed 2:23 3:14 deep 45:16 defend 22:24 dauber 1:2,11 8:2 61:10 107:3 113:5 (6) defendants 113:9 defending 109:9 david 21:5,13 day 100:16 104:18,27 105:9 113:20 (5) defense 87:13,18,23 88:6 (4) defensive 85:13 days 106:7 define 60:28 dde 37:19 ddt 36:15,19 37:4,7,12,17 56:9, 13,15,17,21,26 57:9,14,16,23 58:4 82:1 103:17 104:2 (20) deal 92:11 109:7 dealing 28:10 definitely 10:17 44:21 56:28 definition 39:11 degradation 90:16 degrade 38:4,18 degree 24:25 43:28 81:26 dealt 19:15 80:11 deaths 77:13 deceased 66:12 demonstrably 2:18,25 demonstrate 64:17 demonstrated 13:15 17:28 90:14,16 100:12(4) deny 50:5 82:6 department 1:4 43:11 44:6,18 57:1 113:3 (6) developed 45:15 96:10 development 43:11,12 depend 29:14 di 113:5 depending 58:26 81:28 107:8 depicted 48:24 49:28 51:7 depictions 49:15 deposition 10:1,7,11,12 21:8 110:15 (6) depositions 8:22 9:23 21:9 22:13 (4) describe 30:8 described 28:15 didn't 6:11 18:6,13 35:12 36:8 40:4,16 41:26 47:25 51:18 63:11 64:4 67:25 93:22 97:2 103:6,21 106:6 (18) die 71:15 difference 43:28 75:9 different 2:10 9:15 66:9,9 74:14,20,22 79:8 93:15 94:6,7 96:28 102:11 (13) describes 29:27 description 31:20 81:1 82:24 differently 7:14 106:3 difficult 60:28 deserve 29:14 diluted 35:3 designed 25:15 diluting 35:3 destroy 3:20 4:25 dimensions 88:8 destroyed 3:7 detect 45:15 detection 45:18 detergents 82:25 determine 87:8 direct 12:2 13:6 28:10 35:25,27,28 39:18,26 44:8 45:12 47:17 51:21 61:24 62:27 73:16 97:9 112:1 (17) directed 93:26,26,28 determined directly 107:17 director 5:17 26:23 27:16 28:5 (4) disagree 63:26 disallowed 108:27 discarded 4:5 discouraging 82:5 discoverable 7:5 discovered 88:2 discovers 72:7 discovery 3:3 111:25 discussed 72:16 78:15 discussing 30:5 85:23 92:21 discussion 45:23 48:19 72:23 73:17,18 101:17 (6) disease 99:10 dishwasher 82:24 dismissed 77:28 78:11 dispatch 94:1,4 disposition 20:8 dissolve 34:26 35:2 37:22 distributing 82:7 doctor 18:16 19:2,11,22 20:9,21 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067824 21:4,24 22:16 25:2,25 32:19 33:21 45:22,28 50:12,17 51:12 55:7 56:5,12 57:16 63:20 64:21 65:1,20 70:14 72:7 73:1 74:27 75:15,26 76:3 77:8 80:4 81:10 82:8,14 84:6(39) document 2:23,27,28 3:2,11 4:3,10,13,14,22,24 ,28 5:15,21,22 7:16 14:6,12,13,22 43:5 45:25,26 46:3 51:23 52:16,19 53:9 54:20,24 55:3,24 56:23,24 57:11,26 58:16 61:24 62:4,16 65:21 72:13,16 77:22 78:25,28 81:10,12,13 82:13,15 83:23 86:3 97:9,16 99:23 100:24 105:14 107:23 108:6,17 109:18,25,28 110:1,19,24,24 111:2,3,6,7 112:9 (73) 85:10 87:4 100:8,9,15 101:26 102:10 110:17 (29) doesn't 13:12 19:9 37:17 50:6 52:28 53:4,20 60:10(8) doing 9:22 18:24 20:14 110:18 (4) domestic 87:5 don 109:3 done 6:17 8:16,28 9:24 12:20 19:9 32:16 33:13 51:13,14 64:6,6,8 67:10,15 70:15,22 78:4 80:25 103:8,11,14 104:28 106:3 108:7,9 111:15 (27) doubt 27:3 110:16 dow 64:8 down 19:5 28:1,4 65:28 69:5 93:14 (6) documentation 109:16 documents 4:15,25 6:12,21 7:13 48:12 93:6 108:13 (8) dodging 20:6 does 3:9,22 6:9 9:2 34:7 36:19 37:18 46:10 48:4 55:14 57:21 70:23 73:24 74:9,22,28 75:2,7,11,16,27 dozen 70:4 dr 1:24 3:28 6:3 8:14,16 9:5,28 10:10,12,16 13:25 14:10 18:26 21:5,6,25 49:1,13 52:13 54:18 61:20 63:24 64:1,1 65:24,25 68:19,19 69:4,20,24 72:7,7,22,25 77:24,27 79:5,15 87:20 88:1,27 101:18 105:9 106:11 108:17,26 (47) drawn 74:1 drinker 60:1,3 77:15 drum 86:18,22,23,26 87:2,6,8 105:3 (8) drums 17:20 86: 8,10,12,13,14,19 87:5 104:11,15,28 105:4,5,6(14) edf 88:18,27 89:5,17 (4) edition 95:23 editor 26:2 27:1,18 editorial 27:21,23,25 28:26 31:26 (5) effect 83:10 effective 57:3 due 57:2 dupont 77:20 during 17:25 26:24 56:15 106:4 108:17,25 (6) dye 11:8 each 8:19,20,21,22 9:25 17:21 37:1 42:19 57:8 74:15 85:9 (11) earlier 16:26 17:1628:9,10 80:25 82:6 92:23 109:19(8) early 13:28 34:20,25 41:10,17 46:26 60:11,28 82:7 106:5,7,9 (12) easily 86:18 east 25:22,23 eat 60:6 effectiveness 57:10 effects 21:22,26 22:5 28:28 35:4 (5) egg 83:11 eggshell 103:23 eggshells 103:26 either 3:13 5:25 26:18 48:6 50:21,22 63:11 106:5 (8) electric 82:20 electrical 17:17 73:8 76:10 elevation 68:16 elicited 2:14 110:10,11 eliciting 110:28 eliminating 76:24 77:4 eating 16:12 17:2 economy 15:3 elmer 81:18 100:28 elmo 13:22,22 else 20:15 28:2 37:14 68:18,27 93:19(6) elsewhere 87:3 email 24:9 embarrassed 11:18,19 emphasized 87:4 employee 23:24,26 42:28 43:7 101:5 (5) employees 31:13 71:4 109:5 enclosed 81:20 encountered 86:23 end 25:11,11 87:10 100:16 101:18 (5) ending 32:7 enough 27:14 61:3 entirely 17:7 entitled 62:16 environment 15:26,27 18:2 19:9 37:28 38:4,10,19,22 40:20 41:4 72:8 77:5 78:16 85:12 (15) environmental 13:7 16:7 26:23 27:17 28:5 38:28 77:3 87:13,17,23 88:6(11) environmentally Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067825 9 76:25 event 15:3 19:7 exchangers 76:18 explain 102:6 fairly 18:14 epa 19:28 100:17 epidemiologist 10:1,4 33:7 69:13 (4) epidemiologist's 10:7 epidemiology 30:24,25 31:1,3,9,12,16 67:21,25 68:6 69:3,14 78:4(13) equipment 17:4,17 73:8 escape 40:20 41:4 essence 83:7 essentially 15:19 25:19 27:5 establish 67:19 established 66:22 establishes 7:18 estimate 63:23,24 et 76:17 113:8 etc 1:2 evaluated 88:9 even 4:23 17:19 35:8 38:5 41:15 43:21 46:26 47:2 53:4,20 90:23 92:23 101:13 106:6(14) evening 49:5 94:2,8,9,13 95:12 96:5 106:25 (8) eventual 20:8 eventually 85:6 ever 1:26 2:15 37:27 38:9,18 39:2741:1945:14 64:2,5 (10) every 42:19 59:7 61:18 63:22 73:2 77:12 93:15,18 110:16(9) everybody 8:15 everything 15:28 evidence 1:25 45:1448:8 69:10 83:10 93:7 109:27 (?) exact 59:12,15 80:14 94:23 99:19 (5) exactly 18:19 24:17 25:21 29:4 36:21 70:3 74:18 (?) exam 51:21 examination 35:25,26,27,28 88:23 (5) examined 19:14 30:19 example 31:19 101:16 examples 49:12 except 17:15 34:23 105:4 excess 69:18 70:8 exclusions 97:26 excuse 19:9 111:26 explained 16:26 30:22 exposed 30:21 excused 107:7 executive 14:20 exercise 76:19 exposure 31:28 67:5 extender 55:1 97:10 exhibit 3:4,5 5:25 7:26 13:24 25:28 26:22 36:6 45:27 48:21,25 52:20 53:14 54:3,19 56:5 60:20 62:3 65:7,21 66:8 72:2,3 76:3,4 78:23 80:28 81:4 84:7,8 86:15 87:12 88:27 89:8,15 90:5 92:10,11 94:19 97:5 98:16,17 102:3 104:4,11,18 109:18 (47) extenders 55:9,9,13,17 97:6 (5) extensive 57:2 extensively 2:13,14 extent 34:28 38:25 55:24 56:1,25 57:15 67:1 (7) extraordinary 34:23 exhibiting 81:26 facing 36:4 existed 41:19 45:8 existence 95:17 existing 44:4,10 exited 80:5 expected 99:9 experience 60:27 experiments 24:6 82:6 fact 2:1 3:9 4:22,27 9:27 21:28 43:20 50:7 55:15 60:5 63:3 64:8 65:1 69:18,18 75:12 89:4,27 91:20 92:4 94:9 99:5 101:12,21 104:1,6 105:18 108:27 (28) factor 85:24 failing 105:7 expert 10:6 failure 85:24 experts 9:23 22:13 fair 9:6,20 27:14 29:15 49:11 54:18 55:7 61:3 62:1 (9) false 2:18,26 110:11 familiar 53:25 far 3:7 25:1 34:16 35:13,17,19 45:2 78:7 91:14 92:1 97:11 98:12 99:12(13) farmed 15:7 fat 37:22 45:16 fatigue 104:27 favorable 83:9 84:2 fda 19:28 february 7:17 28:27 84:9 108:5 (4) fed 60:3 feed 79:13 80:20 101:20 feeding 83:27 few 13:6 57:19 61:23 66:19 (4) figure 64:19 70:7,18,21 89:28 (5) file 4:19 5:25 111:25 filed 46:20 47:4 final 73:18 106:10 finally 30:20 find 99:27 100:1 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067826 10 107:14 109:22 110:4(5) finding 104:27 108:27 findings 30:21 31:28 81:23 82:6 (4) finish 51:8 61:15 finished 68:9,12,13 finishes 51:7,10 fire 41:28 43:25,28 44:1 (4) firm 23:5,7,9 24:1,9 (5) first 5:10,10,24 10:15 16:6 28:1 29:28 30:23 33:14 64:1,5,6 67:20,20 78:15 91:13 97:21 105:14 107:14 111:13 (20) firsthand 106:6 fish 15:6 17:6,10,11,12 (5) five 2:20 6:9 fixing 104:24 floor 51:26 53:1,6,26 (4) fluid 2:6,13 16:27 43:8,9,16,16,21 62:8,10 76:16 84:25 85:5,7(14) fluids 42:26 43:3 44:22 45:4 62:9,20,24 63:15 76:19,24 104:6,7 (12) fluids' 76:22 focus 16:5 folks 102:19 follow 47:17 following 1:8 5:4 7:27 17:13 57:3 76:12 86:7 98:7 106:28 108:1 (10) follows 65:4 food 1:26 2:7,16 4:2,5,6 44:22 45:4,5,10 46:14 47:3,7,19,20 48:5,13,14,15 61:23,26 62:16,20,25,27 63:16 76:18 80:19 92:11,18 101:20 (31) foodstuffs 98:20,23 force 89:5,24 100:22 forced 85:16 foregoing 113:16 foreseeable 45:10 forget 75:24 form 58:10 66:28 formal 108:22 formation 98:2 formations 97:25 formed 109:14 formulating 56:8 97:19 formulation 57:9 79:27 80:19 formulations 54:27 57:14 76:16 101:20 (4) formulators 91:20 92:7 forward 100:23 found 43:24 49:7,9 64:21,26,27 65:2 72:15 79:5 94:11 99:10 109:25 (12) foundation 7:4,5 four 4:4 fractions 76:26 frame 20:10 62:13 free 95:21 frieling 1:14,18,24 2:1,5,10,12,23 3:2,6,12,19,23,25 4:11 6:22 7:8,10,15,22,23 8:8,13 14:10 20:28 29:13 33:21,28 36:5,7,9,12 38:14 47:16 48:22,27 49:1 50:11,17 51:15,17 54:4 60:17,20,23 61:5,13,14,17,19 63:13 65:16,20 72:3,6 74:26 75:15 78:24 80:28 81:2,5,7,9 82:23,26 84:8 86:17 88:19 90:5,8,10 99:1 106:22,23 107:9,12,16 110:5, 6,8,16,21,25,28 111:13,20,23,28 112:10(89) fritolay 63:4 front 47:26 65:21 82:20 98:13 (4) fry 2:7 45:10 fryer 45:16 fryers 44:22,25 45:5 frying 2:6,12 16:17 full 4:14 57:8 113:17 fun 49:8 function 24:15 27:5 44:15,17 94:1 (5) fund 87:13,18,23 88:6 (4) further 19:5 30:13,15 93:12,15 106:19,22 107:6,10 (9) future 77:3,4 g 26:12 gas 64:2 gases 95:21 gather 109:22 gave 3:17 10:1 41:28 89:24 108:9,11 (6) ge 83:2 general 13:10 20:22 25:24 40:26 64:14 82:20 (6) generally 2:2 20:5 39:22,25 40:14 42:22 57:12 66:3 72:9 109:28 (10) geneva 25:6 gentleman 21:15 51:7 gentlemen 81:18 88:25 106:24 george 82:22 german 86:13 get 1:15,21 2:15,25 9:20 10:25 13:1 22:16 40:15,28 43:8 45:5 48:17 49:14 53:13 58:25 63:1 68:5 73:14 77:19 98:14 102:7 (22) gets 90:3 102:8,10 getting 5:7 7:7 30:14 37:26 38:19 47:11 63:7 74:19 90:23 107:15 (10) give 1:23 4:9,10 5:23 6:24,25 7:9 11:25,26 24:1,4 45:25 70:19 75:2 84:20(15) given 59:3 84:21 87:7 94:13 108:15 112:5 (6) gives 49:12 57:18 75:4 108:13 (4) giving 4:14 58:5 107:20,21,22 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067827 11 108:26 (6) global 90:24,27 grain 79:9 grave 87:22 (8) happen 16:4 health 21:22,26 22:5 24:25 28:28 36:19 79:5 (7) highlighted 67:10,14 92:15 95:21 98:20 (5) glocoat 51:12 52:5 53:4,10,20,23 54:5 96:14 (8) go 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36:13 high 20:15 higher 34:22,28 38:17 76:26 (4) highest 67:5 honor 1:15,18,18,20 3:27 4:9 7:8,15,20,23 14:5 33:18,28 36:3,5 38:11 47:13 48:22,24 50:11 51:13 54:4,19 60:21 61:14,19 65:18 72:3 78:24 81:5 86:15 88:19 89:9,14 94:19 95:1998:17 105:13 106:19 107:11,13,21 108:2 109:6,20 110:6 111:13,28 112:4,10 (50) Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067828 12 hoped 83:9 hoping 83:21 host 14:15,19 15:19 17:23 (4) hot 102:8 housekeeping 5:27 housewife 93:26 how 2:20 6:19 7:13 11:13 12:18 20:12 38:8,14,15 61:4 64:16 69:7 82:3 86:19 95:21 97:9 99:14,27 105:8 110:20 111:18 112:8 (22) however 85:21 human 15:7 28:28 humans 32:24 80:20 101:21 hundred 41:2 husch 23:7,9,24,26 (4) hydraulic 43:16,21,25 76:16 (4) hypothesisgenera ting 30:9 hypothetically 111:3 i'd 10:9 36:23 55:7 73:12 (4) i'll 7:9 14:8 47:14 49:26 60:15 65:16 70:25 101:28 106:27 111:25 112:1 (11) i'm 2:10 5:7 6:24 7:11,12 8:7 10:15,20 11:18,19 13:17 14:1 18:19 19:2,14 20:25,28 23:6 24:8 25:10 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(7) impeachment 20:26 38:12 implication 60:14 india 86:24 indiana 15:2,12 indicate 14:8 importance 29:16 important 9:3 11:27 27:27 40:28 88:11 (5) indicated 81:23 indicating 81:21 indication 74:4 96:20 impossible 45:19 improper 20:26 38:12 improve 95:22 improved 46:6 77:2 impure 15:28 indirect 35:26 62:27 industrial 94:10 95:4,5 industries 25:6 49:7,9 industry 15:25 61:26 62:16,20,25 94:1,14 (7) infamous 71:12 inference 74:1 inferior 86:20 information 7:18 18:9 19:15 44:19 58:5,17 70:12 75:3 80:26 89:24,25 93:20 100:8 108:1,4 109:9(16) ingested 59:10 60:12 ingestion 58:21 61:2 inhalation 61:2 inhouse 5:18 6:2,7 108:8 (4) initial 68:11 initially 103:26 injection 59:22 input 49:14 inquiry 77:20 insect 55:9 insecticide 54:26 55:9 insecticides 47:20 54:17 55:1 56:27 (4) insects 57:7 inside 64:14 102:13,14 108:3 (4) insoluble 35:10 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067829 13 instance 9:22 41:28 instances 60:4 instruction 6:17 instrument 64:5 insulating 76:10 insurance 68:22 69:7,8 intact 72:11 intended 57:9 interchangeably 39:21,24 interest 20:6 46:28 88:14 interested 29:19,20 33:9 85:11 94:15 100:14(6) interesting 92:22 interim 82:4 international 87:5 interpretation 81:25 102:26 interpreted 19:4 interview 14:4,15,17,18 105:16(5) into 1:21,26 2:15 6:16 16:17,27 17:5 38:22 40:17 45:5,11 63:1,7,15 64:22,26,27 65:2 87:9 90:17 92:23 106:14(22) introduced 77:5 inventory 85:2 investigated 108:4 investigating 54:13,14 investigation 6:12,16 30:13,15 108:6 109:13 111:16(7) invited 21:19 invoice 22:19,21 involved 79:26 83:12 involving 29:19 107:28 irrelevant 92:5 isn't 37:7 41:18 48:10 62:19 101:22 (5) issue 1:20 2:10 30:15 33:17 63:28 80:10 109:8 111:25 (8) issues 22:11 28:22 29:15,22 80:8,9 (6) item 82:28 107:19 its 12:18,19 13:13 18:8,17 35:3 37:17 38:21,24,26 43:12 44:5,11 55:8 57:2,9 64:10,22 67:21,25 88:5 (21) itself 37:17 43:20 100:13 j 1:4 113:3 january 5:28 81:15 82:17 107:23,25 (5) japan 16:12 17:2 iapanese 16:13 86:22 japaneseproduce d 17:3 jenkins 46:20 jensen 17:7 64:1,1 90:27 (4) jim 109:3 job 9:19,21 28:7 30:28 66:11 (5) john 13:25 14:16,19 113:5 (4) johnson 51:24 52:2 53:1,16,23 54:5 85:26,28 (8) join 87:28 judge 1:4 4:21,28 5:7 108:21,26 109:22 113:3 (8) judgment 85:22 judgments 31:3 jumping 51:13 june 52:24 jurors 1:13 8:4,7 61:11 107:4 (5) jury 1:9 7:28 25:18 36:4 48:27 52:20 59:21 77:9 87:18 92:19 102:6 107:1 (12) just 3:27 6:21,26 10:3 13:17 15:22 20:14,21,22 24:15,18 25:18 27:3 29:6 32:22 36:9 38:7 40:27,28 42:20 44:27 48:17 51:17 52:27,28 58:3 60:9 69:23 70:8 73:14 75:23 83:22 85:10 90:5,19 93:4,5,25 95:28 98:7 99:20,23 100:4,7 107:12 111:11 112:2,4 (48) kaley 1:24 3:28 8:10,14,16 9:5 13:25 14:10 18:26 26:12 49:1 54:18 61:20 72:25 88:27 106:11 108:17,26 (18) keep 61:7 79:9,10 106:25 (4) kelly 65:25 68:19,19 69:4,24 77:24,27 101:18 (8) kelly's 65:24 69:20 kerosene 97:27 98:5,10 kid 96:1 kind 49:8 92:22,27 93:4,17 100:6 (6) kitchen 24:7 knew 21:23 34:20,25 35:8 38:3,21,27,28 39:4,10 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12:9,12 25:4 prefer 85:1 preparation 98:6 presence 1:9 7:28 107:1 present 1:12,13 8:3,4 61:11,12 85:12,25 107:4(9) presentation 7:22 29:15 82:19 presented 77:9 89:25 presents 28:27 press 89:11,18,21 pressure 80:6,7,10 pretty 15:24,25 16:9 34:23 (4) prevent 35:15 77:3 90:20 prevented 40:21,23 41:5 proceedings 1:8 7:27 8:22 22:25 106:28 112:13 113:18 (7) process 95:23,24 processes 20:8 preventing 78:16 processors 76:18 previous 65:4 108:9 produce 43:25 88:12 previously 8:10 65:15 produced 3:3 16:13 printed 28:26 producer 25:3 prior 40:11 47:21 90:27 privately 72:17 privilege 1:20 3:17 4:16,23 6:25 7:1,4,5 108:11,13 110:3,4,20 111:9 (14) privileged 2:24 3:14,16 4:15,22,28 5:19,20 6:27 7:19 107:18 108:27 109:15,22,25 110:1,4,24 111:7,11 (20) pro 113:14 probable 36:22,23 probably 26:27 27:1 95:27 98:10 112:7(5) product 4:18 7:1 12:18,19 13:14,19 19:25 41:14 43:21 47:19 54:8,15 57:23 67:1 72:12 85:11 90:17 92:9,25 93:18 108:14 109:12 (22) production 19:8 83:11 87:24 88:13 (4) products 19:19 20:7,8 37:27 38:9 42:14 44:15 45:23 46:13 66:28 84:28 85:3,20,21 91:25 92:17 95:23,24,26 (19) professional 24:23 profit 64:13,18 65:2 problem 19:19 60:28 80:2 85:12 88:9 104:23 (6) profited 64:10 program 104:8 problems 16:7 28:20 42:23 promoted 44:4,10 properly 29:23 properties 37:8 41:28 91:21 92:8 (4) protect 12:18 18:1 93:18 protective 4:20 proud 17:21 19:14 prove 103:8,11,21 proved 103:15 proven 103:24,25 proves 64:19 provide 20:13 29:15 46:9 91:21 92:16 93:11,12 111:14(8) provided 4:23 61:25 76:22 77:4 100:17,21,22 108:12(8) providing 44:19 47:7 public 24:25 68:13 80:6,7,9 (5) publication 71:24,25 94:6 publicity 80:2,9,13,16 (4) publicly 72:14 90:1 publish 30:23,25 published 32:17,20 68:9,13 71:26 (5) Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067836 20 pull 97:16 pulled 6:23 pulling 15:4 109:8 punctures 86:18 purchase 85:2 purchased 52:8 97:10 pure 54:28 55:2 58:1 purpose 2:3 3:8 50:8 55:26 94:12 (5) purposes 6:17 12:9,12 25:4 55:22 62:24 108:4,10 109:9(9) put 3:4 7:21 26:21 34:27 36:3 41:19 50:25 60:18 64:2 83:24 87:9 96:19 102:8,20 (14) pydraul 43:21,22 44:1 qualifications 101:10 qualified 12:10 101:13 quality 86:21 quantities 104:9 queeny 66:26 67:7 99:7,13 (4) question 9:2 19:8 27:28 29:6 30:12,23 31:7 33:13 40:2 47:14,18 50:10 53:24 56:16 59:16 63:11 69:9 72:17,20 74:14,17, 18,18,20,27 75:24 84:1,22 91:15,16 103:7,14 (32) questioned 72:14 questions 15:19 34:12 61:22 71:9 72:21 84:16,23 100:6 104:5 106:20,23 112:8 (12) quibble 40:13 quibbling 40:26 quickly 109:17 quit 105:26 quite 10:13 61:1 66:17,19 80:1 98:4 (6) quotation 32:8 quote 17:15 32:4,5,6 (4) quoted 18:5 32:8 ra 6:1 radio 14:4,15,18 105:16(4) raise 6:22 raised 1:19 4:16 30:12 110:3 (4) rationally 88:9 rats 60:3 ravages 18:2 reach 45:28 reached 63:8,9 reactive 95:5 read 15:22 18:10 19:16,17 31:2 75:15,20 76:8 92:17 93:25 94:16 98:22 102:19,28 109:1,17,21 112:7 (18) reader 57:13 75:10 100:14 readers 29:14 93:28 reading 81:11 reads 46:15 82:3 83:23 105:8 (4) ready 61:20 real 98:14 realize 90:25 really 20:14 22:2 27:24,27 38:4 49:8 62:25 67:4 69:8 72:24 93:1,5,14 103:7,13,19(16) reask 90:5 reason 37:26 38:9,17 63:27 80:4 85:13 90:28 91:2 111:10 (9) reasons 87:6 96:1 recall 3:15 17:25 47:21 49:26 52:18 55:3,18 58:22 59:12 65:10 74:16,17,18 77:19 78:1,17 92:13 94:23,23 99:14,20 102:1 103:19 104:16 106:9 (25) received 105:3,6 receiving 84:17 recent 31:19 recently 21:11 87:3 recess 61:7,9 106:25 recipient 76:19 reclamation 104:8 recognize 25:27 65:21 recommend 96:28 recommended 58:4 97:28 recommending 98:2 recommends 57:23 reconsider 88:5 record 1:12 2:16 3:104:8 5:11,26 8:3 17:22 61:11 68:21 107:4 108:15 110:1 112:3 (14) records 3:21 47:19,23,27 48:1,4 68:23 (7) redacted 66:10 redirect 88:20,23 redo 84:2 reference 49:24 82:26 referenced 52:16 references 51:23 107:24 referencing 30:4 referred 39:28 96:23 referring 32:5 77:23 89:4 94:19 (4) refers 40:19 41:3 refined 98:5 reflect 1:12 8:3 61:11 107:4 (4) refocus 33:27 reformulated 84:28 reframe 50:10 refresh 81:11 refusal 87:23 refused 4:19 regard 17:27 76:28 regarding 71:19 91:15 regards 83:11 register 87:22 regulation 13:12,18 88:13 regulations 13:7,8 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067837 21 reinforced 17:20 reitman 49:13 relates 46:6 relationship 14:8 relatively 70:1 release 89:11,18,21,28 (4) released 38:21 63:22 89:5 releases 38:28 78:16 relevancy 33:19 relevant 88:10 rely 111:5 relying 68:23 remember 2:20 3:12,19,25 13:8 16:11 26:21 27:23,24 29:3,4,7 47:19 51:28 56:11 59:20 60:6,7,7,16 73:5 74:17 80:14 90:12 96:17 97:7 98:27 99:18,19 100:25 103:4 105:24 106:8 (33) renewed 53:15 repeated 30:19 83:13 repeating 82:5 replacement 85:8,20 replacing 104:26 report 51:20 63:3,24 71:13 73:19,20 75:20,20,21 96:15,21 (11) reported 68:17 71:15 79:15 82:2 83:7 86:19 (6) reporter 1:5 113:14 reporting 29:28 reports 63:2 73:22,26 75:22 81:20 100:22 105:6(7) repository 4:13,15 representing 34:2 107:28 reproducibility 83:8 request 6:17 74:10 87:28 112:5 (4) requested 74:3,5 108:1 requires 57:8 research 32:16 43:12 51:20 96:10,14,21,22 (7) residents 15:4 residue 57:7 resins 54:26 resistance 44:1 resistant 35:9,9,10 43:25 44:2 46:7 (6) respect 18:18 21:25 31:28 61:23 62:21 87:25 88:9 (7) respected 21:25 respond 18:1 112:5 responded 73:23 responding 28:25 response 27:21 28:4 31:26 59:16 72:11 77:24,27 (7) responsibilities 43:12 responsibility 12:4,6,13,17 13:13,18 19:24 20:7 31:1 (9) responsible 17:26 18:9 71:1,3 (4) rest 75:20 result 15:27 resulted 63:21 results 30:18 72:24 82:7 83:7 84:3 (5) retained 22:3 retaining 85:25 retardancy 42:1 retired 20:23 21:2,21 22:8 24:11 26:19,26 (7) retirement 21:1 retiring 22:3 retrospect 18:14 return 4:18,26 84:25 returned 108:7 revert 34:13 review 4:10 reviewed 56:23 112:2 rice 16:12,17,21,22 17:2(5) right 1:28 6:9 7:21 8:2,19,23,26 9:9,20,23 10:1,4,11,19,26 11:19,20,22,27 12:5,8,11,19 13:1,19,23,24 14:13,16,18,21,23 15:10,12,17,20 16:1,14,15,19,24 17:1,8,8,9,10 18:4,10,16 19:13,16,22,28 20:4,14,17,19 21:12,20,28 22:1,7,11,19,22 23:5,10,26 24:8,9,17,18,21 25:13,16,25 26:26 27:8,18,22 28:5,14,23,28 29:10,13,20 30:10 31:5,6,15,16,17,19 ,21,25 32:10,13 33:4 34:6,18 35:4, 6,12,18,20,22,25 36:15,25,28 37:8,1 4,16,22,23,28 38:22,24,26 39:2,6,12,13,17,28 40:6,7,12,19,21 41 :1,3,5,11,15,18,24, 26 42:3,6,14,22,26 43:4,9,13,16,22,26 44:6,8,16,28 45:1,16,20,22,26 4 6:3,3,4,14,21,24,2 8 47:2,3,8,11,16 48:2,5,7,8,10 49:2, 10.15.17.22.25.28 50:1,4,8,21,27 51:6,8,18,21 52:3,6,9,11,17,22 53:2,6,9,10,12,16, 21 54:2,11,24 55:1,12,26,28 56:9,13,18,19,27 5 7:11,14,17,19,20,2 2,24 58:7,8,21,23,28 59:8,26 60:5 61:6 62:11,15 63:1,4,28 64:8 65:3 66:1,7,9 ,12,17,21,22,27 67 :5,8,11,15,19,21,2 4,26 68:7,10,15,21 69:5,21 70:24,26 71:10,14,19,27 72:12,15,18 73:11, 14.15.20.21.25.28 74:10,19 75:10,18 76:10,13,20 77:6,13 78:4,11,12 ,14,14,21,26 79:9,11,20 80:2,13,23,25 81:23 82:14,17,20 83:3,5,17 84:18,20,26 85:3 86:3,10,16 87:10,13,15,18,26 88:2,17,26,28 89:2,13,27 90:12 91:1992:10 93:7,13,17 94:3 96:2 97:4,19,22,25 98:9 99:3,5,25 100:4,23 101:16,25 102:25 103:1,27 104:7,12,19,24 105:12,14,19 106:4,12,24 109:21 112:1 (362) rings 36:28 37:2,9,13 39:5 (5) Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067838 22 risebrough 72:7,7,14,22 88:1 103:21,22,25 104:1 (9) risk 30:1 river 15:5 25:20,21 road 69:5 robert 8:10 26:12 88:1 roder 109:3 room 11:25 93:2 roslyn 113:5 rothman 30:4 rough 79:25 roush 109:3 rpr 113:10514 rubber 51:6,8,10 rule 4:21 ruled 3:16 4:11,28 5:20 111:10(5) ruling 107:8 110:8,9 russell 46:20 safety 19:25 20:7 said 1:19 2:16 3:17 12:1 18:5 20:28 25:4 28:10,26 38:1,5 39:27 40:4,25 47:17 53:10 55:21 58:3,20 59:10 60:11,11 62:7 68:22 70:4 73:4,7,17,21,23,27 75:7 78:13 82:19 83:1 89:13 94:4 99:1,20 103:3,6,8,12 106:2 (44) sale 97:6 sales 17:14 44:5,15,19 47:18,23,26 48:1 64:11 72:27 73:5 76:15,17 96:20 (14) same 4:28 17:5 27:10 33:24 41:24 56:15,20 74:28 79:27 82:1 86:22 98:17 103:17 109:8,24 (15) samples 79:6 sanction 110:18, 21,22,25,27 111:4 (6) santobane 56:9 97:20 98:8 sat 28:1,4 Saturday 49:5 94:2,8,9,12 95:12 96:5 (7) sauget 25:15,19 66:24 67:7 (4) savings 87:2 saw 58:11 68:16 69:19 97:21 100:7 109:19(6) say 2:25 4:8 9:7 11:18,1926:19 30:7,8 32:28 33:3,12 36:19 37:1 39:15,18 46:10 48:6 50:21,22 51:17 53:4 54:18 55:7 62:24 67:16,23 75:19,21 81:7 85:10 92:4 (31) saying 16:3 19:1 32:9 40:15 58:17 74:21 75:26 83:22 88:6 89:22,23,28 98:10 101:23 106:2 108:3 110:9,23 (18) says 14:7,12,22 15:1,22,23 16:1,2 17:21 19:18,19,21 20:1,3 26:27 27:1,24 29:16 31:27,27 36:17,18 43:7 46:8,9,18 47:7 49:7 52:10 56:26 57:2,20 60:6,26 62:7 75:8,21 76:9 77:7,27 78:11 79:4,25 80:17 81:20,25 82:13,13 83:4,15,16,18 85:4,8,10,17,18,19 86:27 87:26,27 88:18 93:11,14 94:26 95:20 96:24 97:26 98:19,21 101:18 102:23 103:23 104:4,23 105:2 107:26 (77) sc 52:2 53:23 schweitzer 1:5 113:14,10514 science 9:20 scientific 17:28 18:8,18,19,25,26 19:3 37:26 38:9 87:24 88:12 105:19(12) scientist 22:27 23:28 64:2 88:1 (4) seal 5:26 109:19 sealed 4:28 7:13,17 108:21,23 112:3 (6) second 24:27 29:26 36:10 39:12 45:26 77:18 97:5 111:16(8) secondly 81:27 secrecy 88:11 see 8:6 14:8 19:21 38:14,15 43:8 46:1 47:18 58:1061:7 66:10 69:4 75:9,19,21,26,27 82:8,9 93:6,11 100:13 106:25 112:11 (24) seeing 8:22 49:14 seen 3:15 9:25 14:2,13 45:14,26 46:3 48:27 49:1 54:20 56:5 62:3 71:20,21 74:4 75:23 76:4 77:22 78:25 81:10,12 82:14 84:12 89:18 93:9 104:21 107:16 111:23 (28) selected 66:9 selfhealing 46:7 sell 43:20 55:26 85:7 selling 42:25 43:22 45:9 52:25 62:20,24 80:5 (7) sells 45:4 send 84:23 sends 74:22 sense 50:6 73:13 80:10 85:14 (4) sensibly 29:23 sensitive 1:19 sentence 75:19 83:18 separately 81:23 series 100:6 serious 80:1,18 serum 30:1 served 44:15 serves 10:9 service 87:9 services 22:17 session 113:17 set 20:15,15 35:22 setting 31:8 seven 11:24 several 10:13 67:11,13 severe 88:13 shall 46:10 share 37:7,14 she 11:23 shells 83:11 shipments 86:24 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067839 23 105:3 shipped 17:19 short 111:25 should 12:10 18:7,13 20:12,12,15 26:19 33:16 37:1 50:14 58:17 60:12 83:1 84:21 85:15 88:15 102:17,20 103:2 (19) shouldn't 39:18 102:24 show 14:1 66:10 75:6 96:1 97:21 99:15 101:28 (7) showed 4:3 39:8 53:14,15 59:3,13,18 87:18 97:9 (9) shower 49:24 50:19 96:24,25,28 (5) showing 51:3,5 shown 52:19 92:11 93:22 97:5,15,20 100:24 103:3 105:15 (9) sick 16:18,22 sidebar 108:20 signal 74:22 signature 113:21 signs 15:6 16:6 silage 79:8,10,16 102:7 (4) silo 79:16,20 101:16,17,26 102:8,14,14,28 (9) solubilities 57:18 silos 79:8,23,26 similar 40:2 91:26,27 solubility 58:6 98:8 102:4,5 (4) soluble 102:23 simple 20:14 simply 27:28 110:10 solutia 20:24,28 21:1,2,20 24:11 26:16,23 27:13 31:12(10) since 6:21 22:10 24:11 32:1641:21 97:26 (6) single 36:13 sir 3:6 9:8 12:17,22 41:18 68:25 78:26 (7) solution 97:25 solvent 58:4 97:20 98:5 solvents 53:15 57:17,20,20,22,26 97:27,27 98:3,8 (10) sit 6:6 32:26 59:14 63:17,19 103:15(6) sits 102:8 sitting 106:12,12 situation 77:20 84:24 91:1 slide 7:22 20:25 26:21 48:20 72:4 73:4 77:8 (7) slightly 73:21,27 74:8,21,27 75:2,4,6,12 100:5,7,7(12) small 25:9 70:1 smith 4:27 5:1 108:16,18 (4) society 15:26 sold 2:13 4:3 48:5 73:8 (4) sole 12:8 25:3 some 1:23 3:15 5:11,26 6:7,10 7:3 8:6 13:9 14:28 16:26 17:12 23:19 34:12 35:3 37:8,25 38:3,25 44:8 46:1 47:1 48:8 49:12,14 54:11 55:11 56:1,4,25 57:15 60:4 61:22,25,28 62:11 67:1 70:16 72:20,23 74:1 79:19 82:5 83:13 90:10,26,27 92:12 94:1,18 99:11 101:17,24 105:10,18 108:3,26 111:15 (58) somebody 28:2 64:19 65:26 67:16 68:20 93:19 102:14(7) someone 33:7 102:27 something 2:25 3:2 7:6 12:2 24:5 29:731:8 36:10 43:10 47:17,20,21 58:20 67:19 68:18 91:25,27 92:20 95:25 96:11 111:17(21) specific 59:10 91:21 103:19 specifically 2:20 52:5 70:1 76:28 107:24,26 (6) sometime 68:6 sometimes 66:1,11 somewhere 26:27 27:2 59:9 68:26 76:1 112:3 (6) sons 53:16 soon 17:27 spectrometer 64:3 speculation 47:13 50:9,15 74:24 75:13 (5) spend 93:22 112:9 spent 9:5 22:11 92:12 sorry 2:11 6:24 20:28 26:28 32:7 33:15 36:1 58:15 66:8 75:25 84:1,8 89:13 94:7 101:4 103:10 104:12 (17) sort 23:19 sound 70:24 spill 17:4 st 4:11,21 5:6 6:23 25:20,22,23 109:24 (8) stand 2:25 5:8 20:19 36:9 47:15 (5) standard 20:15 sounds 53:25 66:21 92:23 source 59:28 south 25:23 span 15:24 standing 76:1 standpoint 86:21 star 26:5 27:18 start 27:28 42:12 88:26 90:11 (4) speaking 8:25 33:4 66:3 70:2(4) spec 72:22 special 17:19 57:20,22,26 (4) specialist 91:12 started 1:15 5:3 13:3 40:17 68:6,15 69:19(7) starting 8:5 state 30:20 79:5 86:12 109:7 113:1,15 (6) species 81:28 stated 72:10 79:17 Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067840 statement 38:4 75:16,23,27,28 76:1 92:6 (7) statements 14:28 states 12:11 25:3 43:5 57:1 65:27 66:15,16 72:13 (8) static 96:9 status 81:2,21 83:4 stay 106:27 step 97:24 Stephen 1:4 113:3 still 10:10 26:15 28:20 40:7,11 (5) stl 5:13 stohr 6:1,11,15 108:7(4) stomach 57:4 stopped 43:22 52:25 76:15,17(4) store 95:7,10,25 96:12(4) story 27:24 straight 50:18 stream 15:5 strength 86:21 striking 29:27 structure 35:23 39:5 studies 30:21,24,25 31:1,3,18,21,24 32:1,17 38:3 60:11 73:19 75:6 77:15 78:9 81:22 83:5,9,12,13,27 84:5 103:8,11,14 (26) study 30:8,8,12 31:20 32:5,8 67:21,25 68:6 69:3,14 71:9 78:4 81:27(14) stuff 8:6 subject 14:9 85:23 107:24 submit 22:19,21 submitting 29:7 subsequent 14:9 103:8,11 substantive 111:10 substitute 92:2 success 85:24 such 45:18 46:13 91:2 92:18 97:27 (5) suggest 6:9 32:1 suggested 58:4 suggestion 2:4 7:10 suggests 57:25 suitable 86:25 87:8 summarized 81:22 summation 58:10 superior 113:1,15 suppose 19:4 64:23 sure 1:16 5:13 7:11 9:18 10:3 12:1,3,7 18:19 19:12 26:18 29:7 35:11 36:21,24 38:27 39:7 40:28 41:16,23 44:9 51:19 54:22 59:27 64:12,20,24 65:4,5 67:12 68:28 71:3 74:11 82:16 88:21 90:3 100:28 106:8 109:2 110:7 112:8 (41) surely 88:13 surprise 55:19,20,21 99:12 (4) survey 97:12 sustained 33:20 74:25 75:14 swann 46:21,27,28 Swedish 17:5 sworn 8:10 system 44:24 45:15,18 77:4 85:7 90:17 93:3 (7) systemic 58:20,26 59:10 systemically 59:21 systems 1:27 2:6 17:15 40:14 45:7,10 (6) table 57:18 81:23 83:5 98:6 102:5 (5) take 11:25,26 35:3 48:20 49:26 51:18 59:7 61:6 70:20,25 85:7 87:4 93:19 104:6,7 106:25 111:5 (17) taken 32:23 33:22 34:17 61:9 76:12(5) taking 106:14 talk 13:23 20:22 22:5,6 31:18 33:6,17 39:13,26 48:12 54:17 61:25 71:8 72:6 73:15 82:27 97:4 109:8 (18) talked 4:4,6 9:12 10:22,24,26 33:4 35:23 36:1,2,12,14,14 39:17,19 43:18 44:8 47:23 49:13 58:13 59:13 65:7 72:20 77:12,12,18 80:12 81:18 82:15 90:10 93:1 96:24 98:25 104:8 (34) talking 1:22 2:8,10,28 5:12,18 7:2,12 13:8 17:7,16 18:20 25:26,28 28:9,10 31:24 33:25,26 34:1,4 37:3,11 52:2,5,8,11,14 53:1,7 54:27 57:4 58:7 65:23 69:28,28 71:25 75:23 76:26,27 77:6 86:10 90:11 97:5,18,25 102:7 103:16,16,23 104:15 107:24 108:3,6 (54) talks 80:15 102:3 tallied 70:14,16 task 89:5,24 100:22 taste 92:27 tasteless 46:11 47:8,10 92:19,28 (5) teach 31:11,12 teaching 31:9 technical 23:19 38:1944:11,14 62:1 (5) technology 98:19 tell 6:6,26 30:13 57:13 80:18 92:19 97:11 98:13 100:8 101:19(10) telling 88:16 102:18,19 tells 101:25 tem 113:14 temperature 93:2 ten 101:21 term 12:23 23:1 39:15 40:19 74:27 92:19 100:7,9(8) termed 28:11,14 terms 15:28 20:22 39:19,23 40:8 70:9 75:9(7) Coalition Court Reporters | 213.471.2966 | www.ccrola.com WATER PCB-SD0000067841 25 test 13:2 testified 1:24 2:2 3:28 5:9 110:15 (5) testify 2:5 110:14 testifying 5:4 testimony 2:15 12:2 52:14 108:26 109:28 110:10,28 111:4(8) testing 12:20,23,25 13:3 18:26 19:19 20:12 104:28 (8) tests 12:24,26 83:8 100:12 (4) than 7:6,14 33:4 34:28 40:14 67:12 70:4 74:22 81:27 86:13 101:11 102:19 103:22 (13) thank 7:8,20 44:27 52:1 61:14,19 66:8 81:9 84:8 90:8 106:19,21 108:2 111:28 112:4,10 (16) thanks 95:3 their 13:15 22:4 30:8 32:25 33:7 44:17 51:4 55:10,12 57:23 63:1 64:18,26,27 65:2 74:5,8 85:21 92:8,9,26 96:27 100:19(23) them 4:18,18,23 7:21 8:7 9:13 10:26 11:12 16:22 17:15 28:11,17,21 31:3 39:8 40:17,28 41:28 44:8 45:11 62:12 70:17 84:2 92:21 93:2 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