Document evwNKa8rZRokQm7vnQKJJYwyy

SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY LAW DIVISION - MIDDLESEX COUNTY DOCKET NO. L-3458-09 JOYCE BRADLEY, : VIDEOTAPE Plaintiff, : DEPOSITION UPON : ORAL EXAMINATION vs. : OF : LLOYD C. AMBLER 3M COMPANY, et als., : VOLUME 1 Defendants. : SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY LAW DIVISION - MIDDLESEX COUNTY DOCKET NO. L-1628-09 GARY R. CHAVAN and JULIE H. CHAVAN, Husband and wife, : Plaintiffs, : : vs. : 3M COMPANY, et als., Defendants. : : SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY LAW DIVISION - MIDDLESEX COUNTY DOCKET NO. L-3465-09 PATRICIA DUGGAN and JOHN J. DUGGAN, Husband and wife, : Plaintiffs, : : vs. : 3M COMPANY, et als., Defendants. : : BRODY DEPOSITION SERVICES, INC. Certified Shorthand Reporters & Videographers 7 Elm Street Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Phone: (908) 789-2000 Fax: (908) 789-2007 1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY LAW DIVISION - MIDDLESEX COUNTY 2 DOCKET NO. L-3454-09 3 ROCCO ANGELO FORTE and JANICE : 4 Plaintiffs, : 5 vs. : 6 3M COMPANY, et als., Defendants. : 7 : 9 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY 10 LAW DIVISION - MIDDLESEX COUNTY DOCKET NO. L-8360-06 11 MICHAEL C. GERDING, as Executor of: 12 the Estate of Augustus C. Gerding,: Plaintiff, : 13 vs. : 14 3M COMPANY, et als., : 15 Defendants. : 16 17 18 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY LAW DIVISION - MIDDLESEX COUNTY 19 DOCKET NO. L-5838-06 20 CHARLES F. GLOCK and IRENE GLOCK, : Plaintiffs, : 21 vs. : 22 3M COMPANY, et als., : 23 Defendants. : 24 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Page 2 24 25 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY LAW DIVISION - MIDDLESEX COUNTY DOCKET NO. L-3463-09 PAUL HINSENKAMP, Plaintiff, : : vs. : 3M COMPANY, et als., Defendants. : : SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY LAW DIVISION - MIDDLESEX COUNTY DOCKET NO. L-2994-09 JAMES JOHNSON and MARY JOHNSON, : Husband and wife, : Plaintiffs, : vs. : 3M COMPANY, et als., Defendants. : : SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY LAW DIVISION - MIDDLESEX COUNTY DOCKET NO. L-81-08 PATRICIA A. SNYDER, Plaintiff, : : vs. : 3M COMPANY, et als., Defendants. : : 1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY LAW DIVISION - MIDDLESEX COUNTY 2 DOCKET NO. L-312-08 3 GLADYS THOMAS, Individually and : as Executrix of the Estate of : 4 JOHN A. THOMAS, SR., : Plaintiff, : 5 vs. : 6 3M COMPANY, et als., : 7 Defendants. : 8 9 10 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY 11 LAW DIVISION - MIDDLESEX COUNTY DOCKET NO. L-9455-06 12 CHARLES H. WECKER and ANN WECKER, : 13 Husband and wife, : Plaintiffs, : 14 vs. : 15 3M COMPANY, et als., : 16 Defendants. : 17 18 TRANSCRIPT of testimony as taken by and 19 before Sean M. Fallon, a Certified Court Reporter 20 and Notary Public of the State of New Jersey, at the 21 offices of COHEN, PLACITELLA & ROTH, P.C., Two 22 Commerce Square, 2001 Market Street, Suite 2900, 23 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, on Thursday, August 27, 24 2009, commencing at 10:03 o'clock in the forenoon. 25 Page 3 Page 4 1 (Pages 1 to 4) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 5 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: 2 COHEN, PLACITELLA & ROTH, P.C. 3 BY: CHRISTOPHER PLACITELLA, ESQ. 4 127 Maple Avenue 5 Red Bank, New Jersey 07701 6 (732) 747-9003 7 cplacitella@cprlaw.com 8 Attorneys for Plaintiffs 9 10 CARUSO, POPE, EDELL, PICINI, P.C. 11 BY: MARC Z. EDELL, ESQ. 12 60 Route 46 East 13 Fairfield, New Jersey 07004 14 (973) 667-6000 15 medell@carusopope.com 16 -and17 GOODWIN PROCTER, LLP 18 BY: ELIZABETH RUNYAN GEISE, ESQ. 19 901 New York Avenue, N.W. 20 Washington, DC 20001 21 (202) 346-4000 22 egeise@goodwinprocter.com 23 Attorneys for Defendant, CertainTeed 24 Corporation, and the Witness 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 6 1 LAVIN, O'NEIL, RICCI, CEDRONE & DiSIPIO 1 2 BY: BASIL A. DiSIPIO, ESQ. 2 3 CAROLYN L. McCORMACK, ESQ. 3 4 190 North Independence Mall West 4 5 Suite 500 5 6 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19106 6 7 (215) 627-0303 7 8 bdisipio@lavin-law.com 8 9 Attorneys for Defendants, 3M Company and 9 10 International Business Machines 10 11 (Chavan & Johnson matters) 11 12 12 13 REILLY, JANICZEK & McDEVITT, P.C. 13 14 BY: ZACHARY D. CREGAR, ESQ. 14 15 Kevon Office Center 15 16 2500 McClellan Boulevard, Suite 240 16 17 Merchantville, New Jersey 08109 17 18 (856) 317-7180 18 19 zcregar@rjm-law.com 19 20 Attorneys for Defendant, 20 21 Cleaver-Brooks, Inc. 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 7 HARDIN, KUNDLA, McKEON & POLETTO, P.A. BY: GARY M. SARNO, ESQ. 673 Morris Avenue Springfield, New Jersey 07081 (973) 912-5222 gsamo@hkmpp.com Attorneys for Defendant, Calon Insulation McGIVNEY & KLUGER, P.C. BY: MELISSA ARMBRISTER, ESQ. Two Penn Center Plaza 15th and JFK Boulevard, Suite 518 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102 (215) 557-1990 Attorneys for Defendants, Federated Dept. Stores/Macy's, Raritan Supply, DAP, Hollingsworth & Vose, Graybar Electrical, Hubbell Lighting and Horizon Page 8 MARGOLIS EDELSTEIN BY: JEANINE D. CLARK, ESQ. 100 Century Parkway, Suite 200 Mount Laurel, New Jersey 08054 (856) 727-6034 jclark@margolisedelstein.com Attorneys for Defendants, John Crane and Karnak MARKS, O'NEILL, O'BRIEN & COURTNEY, P.C. BY: PAUL J. SMYTH, ESQ. Cooper River West 6981 North Park Drive, Suite 300 Pennsauken, New Jersey 08109 (856) 663-4300 psmyth@mooclaw.com Attorneys for Defendant, Georgia Pacific KENT & McBRIDE, P.C. BY: JEFFREY W. McDONNELL, ESQ. 1617 John F. Kennedy Boulevard, Suite 1200 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 (215) 568-1800 jmmcdonnell@kentmcbride.com Attorneys for Defendant, MSA 2 (Pages 5 to 8) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 9 1 MORGAN MELHUISH ABRUTYN 1 2 BY: ROBERT J. MACHI, ESQ. 2 3 651 West Mount Pleasant Avenue, Suite 200 3 4 Livingston, New Jersey 07039 4 5 (973) 994-2500 5 6 rmachi@morganlawfirm.com 6 7 Attorneys for Defendant, Novartis 7 88 9 GOLDFEIN and JOSEPH 9 10 BY: LAWRENCE E. CURRIER, ESQ. 10 11 1880 John F. Kennedy Boulevard, 20th Floor 11 12 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 12 13 (215) 979-8218 13 14 lcurrier@goldfeinlaw.com 14 15 Attorneys for Defendants, Asbestos 15 16 Corporation Limited and Bell Asbestos Mines, 16 17 Ltd. 17 18 18 19 19 20 20 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 Page 10 1 TIERNEY LAW OFFICES 1 2 BY: TODD L. ARNO, ESQ. 2 3 1125 Land Title Building 3 4 100 South Broad Street 4 5 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19110 5 6 (215) 790-2400 6 7 tarno@tiemeylawoffices.com 7 8 Attorneys for Defendants, A.J. Friedman and 8 9 Elizabeth Industrial Supply 9 10 10 11 RILEY, HEWITT, WITTE & ROMANO 11 12 BY: MARY KATE COLEMAN, ESQ. 12 13 650 Washington Road, Suite 300 13 14 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15228 14 15 (412) 341-9300 15 16 mkcoleman@rhwrlaw.com 16 17 Attorneys for Defendant, Genuine Parts 17 18 Company (Chavan) 18 19 (Via conference call) 19 20 20 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 11 HARRIS BEACH, PLLC BY: JODIE GROSS PARIS, ESQ. 100 Wall Street New York, New York 10005 (212) 313-5416 jgross@harrisbeach.com Attorneys for Defendants, Kentile Floors and Progress Lighting (Via conference call) CONNELL FOLEY, LLP BY: CHRISTOPHER ABATEMARCO, ESQ. 85 Livingston Avenue Roseland, New Jersey 07068 (973) 535-0500 cabatemarco@connellfoley.com Attorneys for Defendants, The Frank A. McBride Company (Chavan); Superior Welding Supply, Inc. (Thomas) Page 12 SCHUBERT, BELLWOAR, CAHILL & QUINN BY: KEVIN J. QUINN, ESQ. Two Penn Center 1500 John F. Kennedy Boulevard Suite 1400 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102 (215) 587-0137 Attorneys for Defendant, John F. Scanlan, Inc. (Via conference call) SILVERSTEIN & STERN, LLP BY: ALAN ROBERTS, ESQ. 40 Fulton Street, 7th Floor New York, New York 10038 (212) 385-1444 Attorneys for Defendant, Siemens Energy and Automation, Incorporated (Via conference call) 3 (Pages 9 to 12) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 17 1 HOFHEIMER GARTLIR & GROSS, LLP 1 2 BY: MARINA I. GLAVIN, ESQ. 2 3 530 Fifth Avenue 3 4 New York, New York 10036 4 5 (212) 897-7914 5 6 mglavin@hgg.com 6 7 Attorneys for Defendant, Rapid American 7 8 Corporation 8 9 (Via conference call) 9 10 10 11 BUDD LARNER, P.C. 11 12 BY: TERRENCE W. CAMP, ESQ. 12 13 150 JFK Parkway 13 14 Short Hills, New Jersey 07078 14 15 (973) 379-4800 15 16 Attorneys for Defendant, Taubman Co., Inc. 16 17 (Via conference call) 17 18 18 19 MARON, MARVEL, BRADLEY & ANDERSON, P.A 19 20 BY: MERYL J. TOPCHIK, ESQ. 20 21 63 Main Street, Suite 203 21 22 Flemington, New Jersey 08822 22 23 (908) 237-5200 23 24 mjt@maronmarvel.com 24 25 Attorneys for Defendant, Industrial Holdings 25 Page 18 1 MARSHALL, DENNEHEY, WARNER, COLEMAN & GOGG IN 1 2 BY: NADIRA K. KIRKLAND, ESQ. 2 3 Woodland Falls Corporate Park 4 200 Lake Drive East, Suite 300 3 4 5 Cherry Hill, New Jersey 08002 6 (856) 414-6072 7 nkkirkland@mdwcg.com 8 Attorneys for Defendants, Pep Boys (Snyder); 9 Kaiser Gypsum Company, Inc. (Johnson and 10 Thomas) 11 (Via conference call) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 12 13 HOAGLAND, LONGO, MORAN, DUNST & DOUKAS 13 14 BY: APRIL GLOGOWER, ESQ. 14 15 40 Paterson Street 16 New Brunswick, New Jersey 08903 17 (732) 545-4717 18 aglogower@hoaglandlongo.com 19 Attorneys for Defendant, Borg Warner 20 (Via conference call) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 19 GARRITY, GRAHAM, MURPHY, GAROFALO & FLIN BY: IZABELL LEMKHEN, ESQ. One Lackawanna Plaza Montclair, New Jersey 07042 (973) 509-7500 il@garritygraham.com Attorneys for Defendant, State Insulation (Via conference call) SCHNADER, HARRISON, SEGAL & LEWIS LLP BY: ALLISON FIHMA, ESQ. 140 Broadway, Suite 3100 New York, New York 10005 (212) 973-8161 afihma@schnader.com Attorneys for Defendant, E&B Mill Supply (Via conference call) Page 20 CAPEHART & SCATCHARD, P.A. BY: ROBERT A. HICKEN, ESQ. Laurel Corporate Center, Suite 300 S 8000 Midlantic Drive Mount Laurel, New Jersey 08054 (856) 234-6800 rhicken@capehart.com Attorneys for Defendant, Kennedy Culvert (Snyder) (Via conference call) HACK, PIRO, O'DAY, MERKLINGER, WALLACE & McKENNA BY: ERIN BURKE CIRELLI, ESQ. 30 Columbia Turnpike Florham Park, New Jersey 07932 (973) 301-6500 ecirelli@hpomlaw.com Attorneys for Defendant, Johansen Company (Via conference call) 5 (Pages 17 to 20) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 25 Page 27 1 you? 2 A. I'm fine. How are you? 3 Q. Good. 4 I know you've had your deposition 5 taken before. Correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And my research indicated somewhere 8 between 30 and 40 times. Is that accurate? 9 A. No. It's closer to 70 or 80 times. 10 Q. Seventy or 80. So, if I only read 40 11 transcripts, I have another 40 to go? 12 A. I -13 Q. Okay. 14 So, is it fair to say, then, you are 15 familiar with the rules of a deposition and I don't 16 need to go over them with you? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. You are -- currently reside where? 19 A. Furlong, Pennsylvania. 20 Q. How long have you resided there? 21 A. Approximately 35 years. 22 Q. And your current age is what? 23 A. Sixty-nine. 24 Q. Your education is as a civil 25 engineer? 1 I'll ask you to take a look at P-1. 2 P-1 is the Deposition Notice in the Kenneth Carner 3 case. 4 Do you see that? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And it asks for the person the most 7 knowledge concerning various topics. 8 Do you see that? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And there are 15 different topics. 11 Have you seen this Notice before today? 12 A. No, I have not. 13 Q. Can you tell me -- let me ask -- 14 maybe I can cut it short this way. 15 Mr. Edell, is my understanding 16 correct that Mr. Ambler is being produced as the 17 person with the most knowledge on behalf of 18 CertainTeed with respect to each and every one of 19 those paragraphs -- requested paragraphs? 20 MR. EDELL: He is being produced as 21 the corporate representative with respect to the 22 enumerated paragraphs, correct. 23 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. 24 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 25 Q. And paragraph -- could you go to Page 26 Page 28 1 A. Yes. 1 Exhibit Number 2, please. Exhibit Number 2 is a 2 Q. And you are a former employee of the 2 Deposition Notice taken in the Bradley, Chavan, 3 CertainTeed Corporation, correct? 3 Duggan, Forte, Gerding, Glock, Hinsenkamp, Johnson, 4 A. Yes. 4 Snyder, Thomas and Wecker cases. 5 Q. There is a burning question among 5 Do you see that? 6 plaintiffs' lawyers around the country that no one 6 A. Yes. 7 has ever asked you, and that is, does the name 7 Q. And the -- this Deposition Notice 8 "Ambler" have any relation to the town where 8 asks CertainTeed to produce a representative with 9 CertainTeed had its factory? 9 the most knowledge concerning CertainTeed's 10 A. It depends on who you speak with. 10 historical knowledge of the dangers of asbestos and 11 There could be a distant relation. I mean, the town 11 what CertainTeed did in response to protect 12 was named after a specific young lady back in -- I 12 consumers from exposure to asbestos while working 13 don't know when -- back in the early 1900s. 13 with or around CertainTeed asbestos-containing 14 Q. Is that an ancestor of yours? 14 products. 15 A. Depends who you speak to. 15 Do you see that? 16 Q. Does that mean within your family, 16 A. Yes. 17 sir? 17 Q. Is that you, sir? 18 A. Yes. 18 A. They put me up to answer those 19 Q. Somebody may or may not own up to it? 19 questions, yes, sir. 20 A. Yes. 20 MR. EDELL: With specific reference 21 Q. You've been produced today for a 21 to asbestos-cement pipe. 22 deposition in response to a number of Notices, so we 22 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, the Notice is 23 have a lot of material to cover, so what I've had 23 not limited to asbestos-cement pipe. 24 marked as P-1, 2 and 3 are the Deposition Notices 24 MR. EDELL: That's correct. 25 themselves. 25 MR. PLACITELLA: So there is another 7 (Pages 25 to 28) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 33 1 A. The only thing I've done, I've 1 2 reviewed Mr. earner's deposition, plus the one 2 3 co-worker; and I also reviewed Mr. Gerding's sons' 3 4 depositions and the two co-workers. 4 5 Q. So, as it relates to the Bradley 5 6 case, you've reviewed nothing? 6 7 A. That's correct, yes. 7 8 Q. And, as it relates to the Chavan 8 9 case, you've reviewed nothing? 9 10 MR. EDELL: Just so we are clear, 10 11 Chris, this is -- again, we are talking about 11 12 documents that are not and were not privileged? 12 13 MR. PLACITELLA: I don't know what -- 13 14 MR. EDELL: Well, documents that are 14 15 shown to the witness in preparation for the 15 16 deposition are subject to the attorney work product 16 17 privilege, as you well know. 17 18 MR. PLACITELLA: No, I don't well 18 19 know that, but we'll get to that. 19 20 MR. EDELL: I can give you Spark 20 21 versus Peel, which is a Third Circuit opinion -- 21 22 MR. PLACITELLA: This is a State 22 23 case, isn't it? 23 24 MR. EDELL: It's a Federal Third 24 25 Circuit case. 25 Page 34 1 MR. PLACITELLA: That's okay. Is it 1 2 a New Jersey case? 2 3 MR. EDELL: Yes, it is. 3 4 MR. PLACITELLA: In New Jersey State 4 5 court? 5 6 MR. EDELL: No. 6 7 MR. PLACITELLA: I didn't think so, 7 8 so you can have it back. 8 9 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 9 10 Q. So, sir, can you tell me, as it 10 11 relates to the Chavan case, what did you review? 11 12 MR. EDELL: And, again, I'm going to 12 13 direct the witness not to identify any documents 13 14 that were given to him in preparation for the 14 15 deposition by any of his counsel. 15 16 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 16 17 Q. Sir, did you review CertainTeed 17 18 corporate records or documents in preparation for 18 19 today's deposition? 19 20 A. No, I did not. 20 21 Q. Did you review any -- tell me what 21 22 you did review. 22 23 A. Just what I just said, sir. I 23 24 reviewed the depositions concerning the Carner case 24 25 and also depositions concerning the Gerding case. 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 35 Q. And nothing else? A. Nothing else. Q. And what did you do to prepare yourself for this deposition other than having conversations with your counsel? A. Just reviewing those depositions and having conversations with the lawyers. Q. So that we are clear, the only documents you reviewed in preparation for today's deposition were depositions of a couple of plaintiffs and co-workers? MR. EDELL: Just so we are clear, in terms of the definition of review, I want to make sure that the witness understands that includes his discussions with us of any documents that -- that we produced and discussed with him in anticipation of the deposition. MR. PLACITELLA: Frankly, I don't understand what that means. I asked him specifically what he looked at. MR. EDELL: I'm just telling you -MR. PLACITELLA: He said he only looked at three things. He only looked at transcripts. If he looked at other things -MR. EDELL: I just don't want you to Page 36 be misled, Chris. That's all. BY MR. PLACITELLA: Q. Did you look at anything besides transcripts? A. I had a -- I had a meeting with three attorneys -- or two attorneys and a paralegal, and they had some documents that were exhibits from other cases and I looked at those, yes. Q. So you looked at exhibits that were in other depositions you have given? A. I can't say that they were included in the depositions I gave. I can't -- I can't recall that. I just looked at documents that they had. Q. Were they documents that were -- that you had seen before? A. Most of them I had, yes. Q. And you saw those in the context of depositions? A. Yes. I didn't see any of them when I was an employee of CertainTeed. Q. So the documents that you saw in preparation for this deposition were documents that you had seen in connection with other depositions that you have given, correct? 9 (Pages 33 to 36) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 41 Page 43 1 made was that I reviewed what I reviewed, sir. 2 Q. So your only good faith effort, sir, 3 in preparing for this deposition was to read the 4 transcripts of two plaintiffs and a couple of 5 co-workers -6 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 7 the question. 8 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 9 Q. -- is that what you are saying? 10 MR. EDELL: That's not what he said. 11 THE WITNESS: No. I also had 12 conversations with the attorneys and I looked at 13 documents that they had. 14 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 15 Q. And what documents did you look at, 16 sir? 17 MR. EDELL: He's directed not to 18 answer that question. 19 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 20 Q. Sir, you began working for 21 CertainTeed somewhere around 1967? 22 A. That's correct, yes. 23 Q. And -- excuse me. 24 MR. EDELL: We will not tolerate 25 that, Mr. Placitella. 1 about what was known to CertainTeed prior to 1967 2 concerning the potential dangers associated with 3 exposure to asbestos? 4 A. I don't know whether I acquired 5 everything that they knew. I mean, I acquired what 6 I know. 7 Q. In approximately 1969 or 1970 you 8 switched from the technical engineering department 9 to the sales engineering department, is that true? 10 A. In '69, yes. 11 Q. In about 1972 you took on a more 12 sales-oriented position and left the engineering 13 side of CertainTeed, is that correct? 14 A. Yes. I became general sales manager, 15 yes, for pipe, asbestos-cement, PVC. 16 Q. And, as general manager for 17 asbestos-cement pipe, were you responsible for the 18 profitability for that division? 19 A. When was this, sir? 20 Q. 1972, when you became general 21 manager. 22 A. No. I became general sales manager. 23 Q. General sales manager. 24 A. Yes. I was responsible for the sale 25 of the product. Page 42 Page 44 1 MR. PLACITELLA: That's all right. 1 Q. And what were your day-to-day 2 Somebody just called me to tell me what documents 2 responsibilities? 3 you actually looked at. 3 A. To sell the product. 4 MR. EDELL: I can tell you that Spark 4 Q. Were you involved in the marketing 5 versus Peel is applicable in -- 5 and distribution of the product? 6 MR. PLACITELLA: That's good. So, 6 A. I was somewhat involved, obviously, 7 when you ask me for the picture books that my client 7 in the distribution, but not the marketing. 8 looked at, I'll remember that they are not to be 8 Q. In 1975 did you become the general 9 produced. 9 marketing manager for asbestos-cement pipe and 10 MR. EDELL: Okay. 10 accessories? 11 MR. PLACITELLA: So, tell Mr. Suss 11 A. Yes, I did. 12 not to send my any more letters. 12 Q. And what were your responsibilities 13 MR. EDELL: I'll do that. 13 in that capacity? 14 MR. PLACITELLA: Thank you. 14 A. I had profit responsibility for 15 MR. EDELL: Promise. 15 asbestos-cement pipe. 16 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 16 Q. And, when you say "profit 17 Q. Now, through the normal course of 17 responsibility," what do you mean by that? 18 your work at CertainTeed, sir, did you acquire 18 A. Well, you know, I -- I -- profit 19 information that was available to CertainTeed before 19 responsibility for the product and the growth of the 20 1967? 20 product. I obviously worked with the sales 21 A. I acquired information concerning the 21 department as far as setting price, I worked with 22 manufacturing of asbestos-cement pipe, what 22 the manufacturing department to see what we could do 23 literature we had, and somewhat of who our customers 23 to reduce our costs, and we also tried to see if 24 were. 24 there were any different markets we could get into 25 Q. And did you also acquire information 25 or different products we could get into. 11 (Pages 41 to 44) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 69 1 "manual," what do you mean by that? 2 A. Well, there are two general manual 3 ways. One is the pop cutter and the other is the 4 carbide tip, like wheel cutter. 5 Q. What do you mean, "carbide tip wheel 6 cutter"? What do you mean by that? 7 A. It had little carbide tip cutters on 8 the end of a spoke and they would just turn the 9 wheel around and it would cut through the pipe. 10 Q. Sir, you indicated to me that you 11 were familiar with the applications for the vent 12 pipe, correct? 13 A. The applications? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. Just what I told you. I never sold 16 it. It was sold in residential and there were 17 probably some commercial applications for it. It 18 was generally put underneath -- underneath the 19 basement slabs. 20 Q. Well, sir, you marketed it for 21 commercial applications, did you not? 22 A. Well, I just said it was probably 23 sold in hospitals and in schools, if that's 24 commercial. 25 Q. Well, other than hospitals and 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 70 1 schools, you marketed broadly for commercial 1 2 applications, did you not? 2 3 A. I don't know what your definition of 3 4 commercial application is. I mean, we sold it in 4 5 the general St. Louis area. 5 6 Q. I'm saying, sir, what was the 6 7 intended application -- what kind of commercial 7 8 applications was it marketed for? 8 9 A. The only ones I'm aware of -- it was 9 10 primarily residential. The only commercial 10 11 applications that I can recall, unless you have 11 12 something differently there, was somewhat in maybe 12 13 schools or hospitals or something like that. 13 14 Q. Well, weren't you the one who said to 14 15 me that it was part of your job to know the markets 15 16 for this product? 16 17 A. I wasn't involved with air vent pipe 17 18 because we were getting out of that business, 18 19 generally, when I came to work for the company, and 19 20 we were depleting our inventory and, like I say, 20 21 that was in roughly '68, and I came to work for the 21 22 company in '67. 22 23 I was more involved with the water 23 24 and sewer part of the product. 24 25 Q. So you don't really know where all 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 71 the asbestos-cement pipe for vent was sold, do you? A. Just from what I know when I came to work for the company. We made it in St. Louis and it was primarily sold in the Midwest. MR. PLACITELLA: Can we have this marked P-4, please. (Exhibit Ambler 4 is marked for identification.) MR. EDELL: Chris, counsel -- my co-counsel says that the first page, which has been marked as Ambler 4, this exhibit, does not go with the remaining pages of the exhibit. MR. PLACITELLA: That's not my understanding, but we'll -- well, let's make it easy. Rip off the first page and put 4 on the second page. MR. EDELL: That's fine. MS. PARIS: I was just wondering if the microphone could be moved a little bit closer to the witness. MR. PLACITELLA: The witness -- the microphone is two feet from the witness' mouth. MS. PARIS: Thank you. MR. PLACITELLA: You're welcome. BY MR. PLACITELLA: Page 72 Q. Sir, you have in front of you what I believe is a 1967 brochure for CertainTeed asbestos-cement pipe -- do you see that -- called "Air Duct"? A. I see it, but I don't see where it says '67. Q. All the way on the back page in the little letters in the lower left-hand corner. A. I saw those, sir, but I don't -- I can't read '67. I don't know that. Q. Do you recognize this as a brochure for Air Duct asbestos-cement pipe by CertainTeed, sir? A. Yes. Air vent pipe, yes. Q. And it says here that the pipe was used for heating, true? A. Right. Q. Air conditioning? A. Right. Q. And ventilating? A. Right. Q. True? A. Yes. Q. And it says that -- and it's advertised on the front page of this brochure, sir, 18 (Pages 69 to 72) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 73 Page 75 1 that it's for industrial use, true? 1 Nobody in these pictures is wearing a 2 A. Yes. 2 respirator, true? 3 Q. And commercial use? 3 A. That's correct, because there is 4 A. Yes. 4 manual ways of cutting the product. 5 Q. In addition to residential and 5 Q. Sir, did I ask you the reason? 6 institutional use, correct? 6 A. No, but -- 7 A. Right. 7 Q. Okay. 8 Q. And the first thing that's listed is 8 So let me ask you the question again. 9 a -- has a picture of a factory, right? 9 Nobody in these pictures are wearing a respirator, 10 A. That's the first block, yes. 10 true? 11 Q. And the second block to the right is 11 A. No. That's correct. 12 commercial, correct? 12 Q. Now, in addition to -- 13 A. Correct. 13 MR. EDELL: You don't want to know 14 Q. So, does that refresh your memory, 14 why? 15 sir, as to whether this product was, in fact, 15 MR. PLACITELLA: I'm going to get to 16 intended for use both in industrial and commercial 16 that later on, okay? 17 applications, other than institutional applications? 17 MR. EDELL: I'm joking. 18 A. Well, I tried to answer your question 18 MR. PLACITELLA: We'll get there. 19 as honestly and as factually as I could before, Mr. 19 You'll have all the time you need. 20 Placitella. I mean, yes, it is what it says, and I 20 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 21 can remember, when I came to work for the company, 21 Q. At the time that this product was 22 they were selling it primarily in the residential 22 marketed and these pictures -- or the depictions of 23 and some commercial applications. 23 people cutting the product were incorporated into 24 Q. But you don't really know what 24 your brochure, had CertainTeed conducted any testing 25 happened before you came to the company then, in 25 to determine whether the operations shown in this Page 74 Page 76 1 terms of marketing this product, do you? 2 A. I was not involved with this product 3 when it came out. 4 Q. Now, just for the record, this 5 brochure has pictures of people cutting the pipe, 6 correct? 7 A. Yes. With a hand saw, yes. 8 Q. All right. 9 And hammering it with a chisel, 10 correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And the pipe stacked one on top of 13 another, correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And none of the people in these 16 pictures are wearing any type of respirator, true? 17 A. That's correct. There was no need 18 to. 19 Q. Nobody in this picture -- any of 20 these pictures are wearing a respirator, true? 21 A. That's correct, because these are 22 all -- like I've testified to earlier, sir, these 23 are all manual ways of cutting the product. 24 Q. Sir, that wasn't my question. Let me 25 ask the question again. 1 brochure were going to release asbestos fiber as 2 part of the operation? 3 A. There was no testing done. 4 Q. Now, is there something also known as 5 fluid pipe? Fluid pipe? 6 A. Fluid pipe? Not that I'm aware of. 7 Fluid-Tite. 8 Q. There is not a product known as fluid 9 pipe? 10 A. I don't recall a product called fluid 11 pipe. 12 MR. EDELL: Fluid-Tite. It's a 13 trademark. 14 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 15 Q. I'm asking, is there a type of 16 product called fluid pipe? 17 A. I've not heard of fluid pipe. I 18 mean, in -- is this a brand name or a trade name? 19 Q. Generically, did you make a fluid 20 pipe that contained asbestos? 21 A. We made a pipe that transmitted 22 fluid, if that's your question, but we didn't call 23 it -- I've never called it fluid pipe. 24 Q. You called it what? 25 A. If it was asbestos-cement, we'd call 19 (Pages 73 to 76) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 77 1 it asbestos-cement, we'd call it A/C, but our brand 1 2 name was Fluid-Tite. 2 3 Q. And is that the only brand name you 3 4 ever sold a fluid pipe for? 5 A. Fluid-Tite, yes. 4 5 6 Q. And what was the intended use of that 6 7 product? 7 8 A. As I mentioned earlier, we sold it to 8 9 the pressure pipe market and the non-pressure pipe 9 10 market. One was for the transmission of water, the 10 11 other was the transmission of storm drain or sewage. 11 12 Q. And when you say -- well, I can stop 12 13 now and you can change it. Why don't we take a 13 14 break. 14 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at 15 16 11:04 a.m. 16 17 (Discussion is held off the record.) 17 18 MR. EDELL: Before we start, can you 18 19 mark this, please, as Ambler 5. 19 20 (Exhibit Ambler 5 is marked for 20 21 identification.) 21 22 MR. EDELL: Before, Mr. Placitella, 22 23 you asked whether I responded in writing to all 23 24 three of the Deposition Notices that you had marked 24 25 during the beginning of the deposition, and I have 25 Page 78 1 marked Ambler 5, which is my letter to you of 1 2 July 28, 2009, which states, in part, "I am writing 2 3 with respect to the three Notices for corporate 3 4 depositions that you've recently served on 4 5 CertainTeed in the various matters that are the 5 6 subject of this deposition." 6 7 MR. PLACITELLA: That wasn't the 7 8 statement I made, but I have no doubt that you and I 8 9 corresponded about these depositions. 9 10 MR. EDELL: Okay. 10 11 MR. PLACITELLA: That's different 11 12 than what I asked. 12 13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record 13 14 at 11:10. 14 15 MR. CAMP: Chris? 15 16 MR. PLACITELLA: Yes. 16 17 MR. CAMP: Would you mind just 17 18 confirming on the record that the matter is not 18 19 noticed in Glock and Wecker pursuant to the Notice 19 20 we got from your office? 20 21 You included that when you cited 21 22 cases before. 22 23 MR. PLACITELLA: Actually, I do see 23 24 Wecker on a Notice. 24 25 MR. CAMP: It was, and then I think 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 79 we got a Notice during the week, but -MR. PLACITELLA: And I also see one in Glock. MR. CAMP: -- but the record will speak for itself. We'll work it out. MR. EDELL: I see one for Wecker. MR. PLACITELLA: And Glock. MR. EDELL: Okay. BY MR. PLACITELLA: Q. Let's talk about pressure and non-pressure pipe. What was the pressure pipe intended to be used for? A. Well, generally, three areas: One was the municipal water market; the other was the irrigation market, and then the third was the fluid transmission market. Q. And the non-pressure pipe, what was the intended use of that? A. Sewage -- domestic or any kind of sewage, and then also storm drain. Q. Was the pressure -- the pressure pipe ever installed anywhere other than underground? A. Not -- not that -- we did not sell it for anyplace other than underground, and I can't recall it ever being installed above ground. I Page 80 mean, it could have come out of the ground, go over a certain area, but then went back into the ground. Q. And what about the non-pressure pipe? Was that ever installed out of the ground? A. I've never seen it installed out of the ground. We didn't sell it for that reason. Q. Did you sell any asbestos-containing pipe with the intended use -- as one of its intended uses that it would be installed above the ground? A. No, we did not. Q. Other than, of course, the vent pipe? A. Well, the vent pipe -- I don't believe that was installed above the ground. Q. You don't know so, as you sit here? A. Well, I'm looking at this brochure. I mean, as far as I know, on the vent pipe, it was all under a slab or under the ground, and that's what this brochure says also. Q. You don't know that it was installed in commercial buildings between floors? MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: Yes. I don't know if it was or it wasn't, but the intent, as I understand it, was to be in the ground. 20 (Pages 77 to 80) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 81 1 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 1 2 Q. But you don't know for certain the 2 3 vent pipe -- if the vent pipe was installed above 3 4 the ground or not? 4 5 A. I don't know -- 5 6 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 6 7 the question. 7 8 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 8 9 Q. True? 9 10 MR. EDELL: Are you asking him 10 11 whether it ever occurred or whether it was 11 12 intended -- that was an intended use of the product? 12 13 MR. PLACITELLA: I'm asking him the 13 14 question I asked him. 14 15 MR. EDELL: Which -- 15 16 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 16 17 Q. You don't know for certain, sir, 17 18 whether the asbestos-containing vent pipe was 18 19 installed above the ground? 19 20 MR. EDELL: Same objection to the 20 21 form of the question. 21 22 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 22 23 Q. You can answer it. 23 24 A. I don't -- I don't -- I don't know if 24 25 it was ever installed above the ground -- 25 Page 82 1 Q. Okay. 1 2 A. -- but, as I understand it, that 2 3 wasn't it's intent. 3 4 Q. It was your understanding that it 4 5 wasn't to be sold for factory and commercial 5 6 applications too, right? 6 7 A. I told you what I told you earlier, 7 8 sir. 8 9 Q. Okay. 9 10 Now, the asbestos-cement pipe, in 10 11 terms of its composition, was it basically the same 12 whether it was a pressure or non-pressure pipe? 13 MR. eDeLL: Objection to the form of 11 12 13 14 the question. 14 15 THE WITNESS: What do you mean by 15 16 it's composition? 16 17 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 18 Q. Did the asbestos content vary 17 18 19 depending on whether the product was a pressure or 19 20 non-pressure pipe? 20 21 A. Yes, it did. 22 Q. And how did it vary? 21 22 23 A. Primarily the percentage of asbestos 23 24 in the product. 24 25 Q. And what was the percentage of 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 83 asbestos in the product for pressure pipe? MR. EDELL: Are we speaking about any particular manufacturer's product? MR. PLACITELLA: CertainTeed is the only one I care about. MR. EDELL: I just wanted to know. MR. PLACITELLA: We'll get to all the stuff they did with Manville tomorrow. MR. EDELL: Okay. BY MR. PLACITELLA: Q. Right now we are talking about CertainTeed. Do you understand that, sir? A. Yes. Q. Okay. So, when I'm asking you questions -- unless I say something about Johns-Manville or some other competitor, when I'm asking you questions about asbestos-cement pipe, you'll understand I'm talking to you about CertainTeed asbestos-cement pipe, okay? A. Yes. Q. The asbestos-cement pipe -- the pressure pipe, what was the percentage of asbestos in the pressure pipe? A. It ranged anywhere between, by Page 84 weight, 15 to 20 percent. It averaged somewhere around 17 percent. Q. And what was the percentage of asbestos in the non-pressure pipe? A. It ranged anywhere between 10 and 15 percent and averaged 12, 13 percent. Q. By weight? A. I'm sorry. Yes, by weight. Q. And it was my understanding that the product came generally in 13-foot lengths, whether it was pressure or non-pressure pipe? A. Yes, our standard length was 13 feet. Q. And a 13-foot pipe weighed approximately what? A. I don't know. Depends on the size, depends on the class. Q. Did you sell asbestos-cement pipe with up to 25 pounds of asbestos in a single piece of pipe? A. Twenty-five pounds? Q. Right. A. We'd have to sit here and figure it out, but I'm sure -- one piece of pipe, I'm sure we did. Q. And in every piece of asbestos-cement 21 (Pages 81 to 84) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 85 1 pipe sold by CertainTeed there were two different 1 2 kinds of asbestos, true? 2 3 A. For the most part that's true, yes. 3 4 Q. They are chrysotile, correct? 4 5 A. That was one, yes. 5 6 Q. And crocidolite was the other? 6 7 A. That's correct, yes. 7 8 Q. Am I correct that, of the asbestos 9 content for CertainTeed asbestos-cement pipe, 8 9 10 approximately 10 to 15 percent was crocidolite 10 11 asbestos? 11 12 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 12 13 the question. 13 14 THE WITNESS: Of the total asbestos 14 15 content, that's correct. 15 16 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 16 17 Q. You sold asbestos-cement pipe from 17 18 1962 until 1992, true? 18 19 A. Pretty true. Pretty true. I mean, 19 20 we -- we stopped manufacturing it in the fourth 20 21 quarter of 1992, and obviously we had some 21 22 inventory, so that sloughed over into the first 22 23 quarter of '93. 23 24 Q. Okay. 24 25 What trades is your understanding 25 Page 86 1 that installed CertainTeed pressure pipe that 1 2 contained asbestos? 2 3 A. Primarily, pressure pipe, utility 3 4 contractors. 4 5 Q. And what trades do they employ? 5 6 A. What do you mean, "what trades do 6 7 they employ"? 7 8 Q. Well, you just said before vent -- 8 9 vent pipe was installed by pipefitters. 9 10 A. Yes. That's my opinion on that, yes. 10 11 Q. So what trades installed pressure 11 12 pipe? 12 13 A. Well, they -- I mean, generally the 13 14 people actually installing the pipe were called 14 15 laborers, and then you obviously had -- you had 15 16 operators for the equipment and then you obviously 16 17 had supervision on the job. 17 18 Q. And what about the non-pressure pipe? 18 19 What trades installed non-pressure pipe? 19 20 A. That was the -- the utility 20 21 contractors again, but ones that focused on -- on -- 21 22 on sewer pipe installations. 22 23 Q. Was the non-pressure pipe ever cut in 23 24 the field? 24 25 A. Yes. 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 87 Q. Was the pressure pipe ever cut in the field? A. Yes. Q. Do you know what trades were in the vicinity of people who were cutting non-pressure pipe? A. Not necessarily. I do not, no. Q. Do you know what trades would work in the vicinity of people who cut pressure pipe? A. Well, I don't know what the definition of vicinity is, but I can't recall of anybody being in the close area or in that area where the pipe was being installed. Q. Okay. When you say "close area," what do you mean by that? A. Well, I don't know of any trades that are -- that are necessarily working in -- where pipe is being installed. It depends on -- on how the overall construction is being programmed. You know, are houses being built down the street? Could be. Would there be carpenters and roofers? Could be. I don't know that. But there wasn't any trades that were -- that were specifically there to work with Page 88 these contractors to install the product, other than the -- other than the operators, and they were a part of the company. Q. The pressure pipe, was that ever stalled -- installed as part of a building? A. Inside the building? Q. Or in the foundation of the building. A. Well, we -- there was pressure pipe run up to the building, yes. Q. And, when you say "up to the building," what do you mean by that? A. Well, you have -- generally you have pipe in the ground that's transmitting water, and then you have to get it from that main line to the building, and on some commercial applications the -they did run asbestos-cement from the main line to the building. Did it go into the building? It could have gone in for some distance. I don't know exactly how far -- we didn't sell that much -- we didn't sell that much pipe going from the main line to the building unless it was a -- some sort of a commercial application. Q. The non-pressure pipe, was that ever installed in a building? A. Not -- not -- that wasn't the intent 22 (Pages 85 to 88) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 89 Page 91 1 and I can't recall it ever being done. 1 group of asbestos-cement products that was being 2 Q. Was the non-pressure and the pressure 2 considered? 3 pipe shipped the same way? 3 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 4 A. It was all shipped by truck, for the 4 the question. 5 most part. I mean, obviously there are exceptions. 5 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. I 6 We did some piggybacking once in a while or -- 6 mean, I don't know -- asbestos-cement siding? 7 but -- or even straight rail once in a while, but 7 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 8 primarily almost all our shipments were by truck. 8 Q. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Are you aware that CertainTeed sold 9 A. In the late -- in the '70s? 10 asbestos-cement shingles? 10 I don't know that. I mean, we were 11 A. I knew that there was some 11 in the PVC siding business in the '70s. 12 asbestos -- I don't know whether it's 12 Q. I didn't say the '70s, sir. 13 asbestos-cement or not, but I knew there was some 13 Do you know whether, in trying to 14 asbestos involved in the roofing group. To what 14 determine whether warnings should be placed on 15 degree, I don't know. 15 CertainTeed products, CertainTeed grouped 16 Q. You are aware that CertainTeed sold 16 asbestos-cement siding with asbestos-cement pipe as 17 asbestos-cement siding shingles, correct? 17 part of its consideration? 18 A. I knew that they sold some asbestos 18 A. I have no idea. 19 siding, yes. 19 Q. Do you know -- do you have any 20 Q. Do you know what the intended use was 20 knowledge as to when or if warnings ever accompanied 21 for that product? 21 the sale of asbestos-cement siding by CertainTeed? 22 A. For what? Siding? 22 A. I have no idea. 23 Q. Yes. 23 Q. Do you know whether any testing was 24 A. No, I don't. 24 done by CertainTeed to determine whether asbestos 25 Q. Do you know the years it was sold? 25 fiber was released during the installation of Page 90 Page 92 1 A. No, I do not. 1 asbestos-cement siding? 2 Q. Do you know how it was shipped? 2 A. No. I don't know. 3 A. No, I do not. 3 Q. Are you -- 4 Q. Do you know that -- who the 4 A. Your question was, specifically, do I 5 distributors were for New Jersey and Pennsylvania? 5 know, right? 6 A. For siding? 6 Q. Correct. 7 Q. Correct. 7 A. I do not know. 8 A. No. 8 Q. Okay. 9 Q. Do you know where it was 9 Did CertainTeed sell asbestos-cement 10 manufactured? 10 sheets? 11 A. No. I don't even know if CertainTeed 11 A. I don't know, and I don't believe 12 manufactured it. 12 they did. 13 Q. Had you ever heard that it was 13 MR. PLACITELLA: Could you have this 14 manufactured by National Gypsum? 14 marked Ambler 6. 15 A. I heard that there was another 15 (Exhibit Ambler 6 is marked for 16 company that manufactured it, but I don't know who 16 identification.) 17 it was. 17 MR. PLACITELLA: I'm just waiting for 18 Q. Do you know the trade that would have 18 your lawyer, and I think they are trying to figure 19 installed it? 19 out whether I typed anything in. 20 A. Installed the siding? 20 MR. EDELL: No. We just want to make 21 Q. Correct. 21 sure it's a complete set, that's all. There are 22 A. No. Only home builders. 22 several attachments to the -- 23 Q. When CertainTeed was deciding whether 23 MR. PLACITELLA: I think I got them 24 to put a warning on its asbestos-cement pipe, am I 24 all. 25 correct that asbestos-cement siding was part of a 25 MR. EDELL: -- to the set. 23 (Pages 89 to 92) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 93 Page 95 1 Other than the portion that's 1 under the impression we did not make asbestos-cement 2 doctored, it looks like it's accurate. 2 sheets. 3 MR. PLACITELLA: I can guarantee you, 3 Q. It further says, "To the best of 4 if I doctored it, you wouldn't see it. 4 CertainTeed's knowledge, these products were solid 5 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 5 slabs that were gray in color and manufactured from 6 Q. You have in front of you what's been 6 cement, silica and asbestos fiber, with the asbestos 7 marked P-6 for identification. These are the 7 fiber being bound up in the cement matrix." 8 Answers to Interrogatories. I presume that they are 8 Do you see that? 9 the standard answers in every case, but they are 9 A. Yes. 10 marked in the Bird case. 10 Q. These products were designed for use 11 Do you see that? For Middlesex 11 on the exterior of commercial buildings, correct? 12 County? 12 A. Yes. 13 A. Yes, I do. 13 Q. So you are obviously not the person 14 Q. Have you been involved in supplying 14 with the most knowledge concerning asbestos-cement 15 information to assist in answering Interrogatories 15 sheets or siding products sold by CertainTeed, true? 16 like this on behalf of CertainTeed? 16 A. That's correct. 17 A. I've been asked questions, specific 17 Q. Okay. 18 questions, when they are preparing Interrogatories, 18 A. As far as I know, I'm not. 19 and I gave my answers, yes. 19 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to how 20 Q. Would you go to Attachment D, please. 20 the asbestos content in the asbestos-cement sheets 21 Do you see that, sir? 21 compared to the asbestos-cement pipe? 22 A. Yes, sir. 22 A. No, I do not. 23 Q. Attachment D is asbestos-cement 23 Q. The first time that CertainTeed 24 product other than asbestos-cement pipe. 24 itself -- you know what, let me do a little 25 Do you see that? 25 housekeeping here, so we're... Page 94 Page 96 1 A. Yes. 1 Let me start again. The first time 2 Q. Okay. 2 that CertainTeed manufactured asbestos-cement pipe 3 Could you go to Page 2 -- the bottom 3 was sometime in 1962, true? 4 of Page 2? 4 A. Yes. 5 A. Yes. 5 Q. And what happened was that 6 Q. It says, "CertainTeed manufactured an 6 CertainTeed purchased the asbestos-cement pipe 7 asbestos-cement board product from 1928 to 1930, but 7 business from a company called Keasbey & Mattison, 8 the product was not economically successful." 8 true? 9 Do you see that? 9 A. No. They purchased the 10 A. Yes. 10 asbestos-cement pipe assets from Keasbey & Mattison. 11 Q. So we now know that CertainTeed was 11 Q. Is there a difference in your mind? 12 manufacturing asbestos-containing cement products as 12 A. Well, I'm not a lawyer, obviously, 13 early as 1930. True? 13 but the assets are the assets and, to me, an asset 14 A. Per this, yes. 14 doesn't necessarily include any liabilities or 15 Q. It further states, "Thereafter 15 anything of that nature. So they didn't necessarily 16 CertainTeed did not manufacture asbestos-cement 16 purchase the company; they purchased the assets. 17 sheets, but it did offer flat sheets for sale under 17 Q. All I just asked you was, did they 18 CertainTeed's name for a period that began in the 18 purchase the business. 19 1950s and ended in approximately 1973." 19 A. And I said they purchased the assets. 20 Do you see that? 20 Q. And the assets included inventory? 21 A. Yes. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Is this the first time that you found 22 Q. It included the goodwill of the 23 out -- today -- that CertainTeed sold 23 company? 24 asbestos-cement sheets from the 1950s until 1973? 24 A. The name -- well, goodwill -- what do 25 A. As I -- as I testified to, I was 25 you mean by "goodwill"? 24 (Pages 93 to 96) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 97 Page 99 1 Q. In terms of the customer base, 1 And those sales -- that sales force 2 customer lists, salespeople, that kind of thing. 3 MR. EDeLl: I'm going to object to -- 2 had relationships and contacts with customers, true? 3 A. Yes. 4 this witness is not produced as a corporate 4 Q. And those relationships and those 5 representative to answer legal issues regarding the 5 contacts would have gone from Keasbey & Mattison to 6 purchase of the assets of another corporation. 6 CertainTeed, true? 7 MR. PLACITELLA: I understand. 7 A. The contacts obviously did. I can't 8 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 8 say that all the relationships did. 9 Q. Do you understand that they purchased 9 Q. And the -- Keasbey & Mattison had 10 the goodwill of the company? 10 industrial hygiene-related people that worked for 11 MR. EDELL: If you -- obviously, if 11 them in the asbestos-cement pipe business, true? 12 you think that you know what he's talking about and 12 A. Yes. 13 you feel comfortable answering the question, then 13 Q. And those people came over to 14 answer the question. If not, then tell him that you 14 CertainTeed, as well, true? 15 that's your understanding. 15 A. Yes. 16 THE WITNESS: What -- how do you 16 Q. Keasbey & Mattison also had medical 17 define "goodwill"? 17 doctors that worked for them that were -- came over 18 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 18 to CertainTeed as part of the purchase, true? 19 Q. I'll do it a different way. 19 A. I don't believe that's a fact. I 20 CertainTeed purchased the knowledge 20 don't -- Keasbey & Mattison, as far as I know, 21 of the manufacturing process, correct? 21 didn't have any medical doctors and, when I came to 22 A. Yes. 22 work for CertainTeed Corporation, the -- the medical 23 Q. And it purchased the factories that 23 doctors were people who we were using as outside 24 made asbestos-cement pipe, correct? 24 doctors. They weren't on our payroll. 25 A. Yes. 25 Q. The knowledge that Keasbey & Mattison Page 98 Page 100 1 Q. And it purchased the customer lists, 1 had concerning how to safely manufacture its product 2 correct? 2 was transferred to CertainTeed, true? 3 A. Yes. Yes. 3 A. The knowledge of how to manufacture 4 Q. And it -- and the accounting records 4 the product was transferred, yes. 5 would have been transferred -- as it related to 5 Q. Keasbey & Mattison's knowledge how to 6 asbestos-cement pipe sales, were transferred from 6 safely sell the product was transferred to 7 Keasbey & Mattison to CertainTeed, true? 7 CertainTeed, true? 8 A. I don't know what accounting records 8 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 9 were transferred. 9 the question. 10 Q. The salespeople with all of their 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11 contacts generally were transferred from Keasbey & 11 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 12 Mattison to CertainTeed, true? 12 Q. You understand that there was a 13 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 13 relationship between Keasbey & Mattison and a 14 the question. What do you mean by "generally"? 14 company known as Turner Brothers, true? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 15 A. Turner Brothers? I believe it was 16 Turner-Newall, but -- 17 Q. Well, I don't know -- you can't say 17 Q. Turner and Newall? 18 each and every salesperson went over, true? 18 A. Yes. 19 A. That's true. 19 Q. Okay. 20 Q. But, generally speaking, the sales 20 And you understand that Turner and 21 force for asbestos-cement pipe for Keasbey & 21 Newall was part owner of Keasbey & Mattison before 22 Mattison went over to CertainTeed as part of the 22 the purchase of the assets, true? 23 purchase, true? 23 A. Yes. 24 A. Yes. 24 Q. You also understand that Turner and 25 Q. Okay. 25 Newall, as part of the transfer, became part owner 25 (Pages 97 to 100) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 101 Page 103 1 of the entity that CertainTeed took over, true? 1 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 2 A. They became -- would you -- would 2 Q. Whatever those people who were on the 3 you -4 Q. They became part owner of the 3 Board of Directors knew from Turner and Newall they 4 would have brought with them when they became Board 5 asbestos-cement pipe business that CertainTeed owned 5 of Directors of CertainTeed, true? 6 and operated? 6 A. They would have brought -- whatever 7 A. I don't believe that the CertainTeed 7 knowledge they had would have come over. 8 pipe business was split out as an entity. It became 8 Q. Now, do you recognize the name Ralph 9 part of the corporation. 9 Bateman? 10 Q. Did -- were there people from Turner 10 A. Yes. 11 and Newall that were on the Board of Directors of 11 Q. And was he a person who was on the 12 Keasbey & Mattison? 12 Turner and Newall Board of Directors and also served 13 A. Of Keasbey & Mattison? 13 on the Board of Directors of CertainTeed? 14 Q. Correct. 14 A. I don't know about Turner and Newall, 15 A. I don't know the answer to that 15 but I do know he was on CertainTeed's board -- 16 question. 16 CertainTeed's Product Corporation board. 17 Q. Do you know whether there were people 17 Q. Do you know a man by the name of 18 from Turner and Newall that were on the Board of 18 Shepherd? 19 Directors of CertainTeed? 19 A. I know of -- I knew of -- I recognize 20 A. For a period of time there were, yes. 20 the name, yes. 21 Q. All of the research that was done 21 Q. And he was also a Turner and Newall 22 concerning asbestos-cement pipe by Keasbey & 22 executive, true? 23 Mattison was transferred to CertainTeed, true? 23 A. Yes. 24 A. The research was transferred, yes. I 24 Q. And that Turner and Newall executive 25 mean, all of it? I don't know the answer to that, 25 also served on the board of CertainTeed, true? Page 102 Page 104 1 but obviously how to make the product and what went 1 A. Yes. 2 into the product was, yes. 2 Q. Can you tell me, sir, based upon your 3 Q. Now, you indicated that there were 3 research, what information Keasbey & Mattison 4 people who were on the Board of Directors of 4 transferred concerning the dangers of asbestos to 5 CertainTeed for a period of time that were from 5 CertainTeed? 6 Turner and Newall. 6 A. I don't know what was transferred 7 Do you recall that? 7 specifically from Keasbey & Mattison. 8 A. Yes. 8 Q. Would you agree with me, sir, that 9 Q. For what period of time? 9 CertainTeed went through great efforts to ensure the 10 A. I don't know how long that was, sir. 10 people that were working in its plants were being 11 Q. Do you know who the people were? 11 protected from exposure to asbestos? 12 A. No, I can't give you their names. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you know -- do you know that those 13 Q. And, when CertainTeed took over the 14 people were also on the Board of Directors of Turner 14 operation from Keasbey & Mattison, those efforts 15 and Newall? 15 were evident already, true? 16 A. I heard that. 16 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 17 Q. So, whatever information was known to 17 the question. 18 Turner and Newall would have been transferred or at 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 least known to CertainTeed, true? 19 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 20 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 20 Q. That Keasbey & Mattison, prior to 21 the question. 21 CertainTeed, had also taken great care to protect 22 THE WITNESS: No. I mean -- I mean, 22 the workers in its plants from exposure to asbestos, 23 the people were -- the people were one here and one 23 true? 24 here, so I don't know what they brought with them, 24 A. Yes. As best that I know. 25 but the people were. 25 Q. All right. 26 (Pages 101 to 104) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 105 Page 107 1 And am I correct, sir, that 1 place, was it designed to remove all of the asbestos 2 CertainTeed, over the years, worked hard to improve 2 fiber from the breathing zone of the person who was 3 the safety measures that were in place for 3 cutting the pipe? 4 protection against exposure to asbestos at the time 4 A. It was -- it was designed to remove 5 it purchased the Keasbey & Mattison assets? 5 the asbestos from the areas where asbestos would be 6 A. Yes. 6 released, yes. 7 Q. When CertainTeed took over the 7 Q. Was it designed to protect not only 8 manufacture of the asbestos-cement pipe in 1962, 8 the person who was cutting the pipe, but other 9 there were already engineering controls in the 9 people who would be in the vicinity of when the pipe 10 plants to prevent exposure to asbestos to the 10 was cut? 11 workers, true? 11 A. It was designed to -- to extract the 12 A. Yes. 12 released fiber from that operation. 13 Q. Okay. 13 Q. There is no doubt, is there, that the 14 And those engineering controls 14 cutting of the CertainTeed asbestos-cement pipe 15 included ventilation? 15 released asbestos fiber into the atmosphere? 16 A. Yes. 16 A. In the plants? 17 Q. Okay. 17 Q. Yes. 18 And did those engineering controls 18 A. That's a fact. There is no doubt. 19 include hoods over where the asbestos-cement pipe 19 Q. The people who were in charge of 20 was being cut? 20 cutting the asbestos-cement pipe in the plant, were 21 A. Yes. 21 they provided any respiratory protection? 22 Q. Okay. 22 A. If needed, yes. 23 Were there areas in the plants in 23 Q. So the people who were in charge of 24 1962 where -- that were dedicated to the cutting of 24 cutting the asbestos-cement pipe in the plant, they 25 asbestos-cement pipe? 25 were provided both ventilation and respiratory Page 106 Page 108 1 A. Yes. 1 protection, true? 2 Q. Okay. 2 A. Well, the respiratory -- they could 3 And the cutting occurred with a -- 3 use a respirator if they wanted to, on their own, 4 power equipment or non-power equipment? 4 and the requirement for a respirator was only if 5 A. Power equipment. 5 there was some foul-up where the -- the exhaust 6 Q. Was there ever cutting that went on 6 system wasn't doing it's job. Until it was 7 inside the CertainTeed plant that did not involve 7 corrected they had to wear a respirator there. 8 power equipment? 8 Q. So, if you could see the asbestos in 9 A. There could have been some incidental 9 the air, you should wear a respirator? 10 cutting if somebody had to cut a small piece or 10 A. Well, I mean -- 11 something. 11 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 12 Q. Now, the people who were in charge of 12 the question. 13 cutting the asbestos-cement pipe in the CertainTeed 13 THE WITNESS: -- I don't know how to 14 plant in 1962 -- how many people were there, do you 14 answer that question. I mean, obviously if -- if 15 know? 15 the operation was not within the requirements at 16 A. In charge of the cutting? 16 that time period, you have to wear a respirator. 17 Q. No. People that did the cutting, the 17 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 18 actual cutting. 18 Q. And when you say a requirement of 19 A. I don't have any recollection. 19 that time period, what do you mean by that? 20 Q. Was it five, ten, 20? Do you have 20 A. Well, I mean, prior to 1971 you had 21 any idea? 21 the ACGIH requirements, and then after 1971 you had 22 A. I don't -- I mean, it would depend on 22 OSHA. 23 how many lines were operating at the time. I don't 23 Q. Well, sir, within a short period of 24 know. 24 time after you took over the manufacturing plant 25 Q. And the ventilation that was in 25 you, CertainTeed, were aware that the ACGIH 27 (Pages 105 to 108) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 109 1 requirements would not protect workers, true? 1 2 A. No. 2 3 Q. That's not true? 3 4 A. No. 4 5 Q. You know you are under oath -- 5 6 A. I understand. 6 7 Q. -- when you make that statement? 7 8 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. You were never provided any notice 9 10 before 1971 that the ACGIH requirements were not 10 11 protective of workers? 11 12 A. I didn't say that. I said, obviously 12 13 there was information and write-ups and material 13 14 that was so stating that, but the ACGIH requirements 14 15 were what they were, and it was our responsibility 15 16 to manufacture a product within the applicable 16 17 standards. 17 18 Q. But you knew, sir, did you not -- in 18 19 fact, your own people had drawn conclusions that the 19 20 ACGIH requirements may not be protective of workers' 20 21 health, as its relates to asbestos? 21 22 A. There were some people that had that 22 23 opinion. 23 24 Q. Within your own company? True, sir? 24 25 A. I'd have to see that, but I believe 25 Page 110 1 there were some people that had that, but the 1 2 company's position was that, if we manufactured a 2 3 product that was within the standards, that's what 3 4 our job was to do, and we -- but we also, sir, 4 5 had -- had internal standards less than what the 5 6 standards were. 6 7 Q. That's my point. 7 8 Your internal standards for 8 9 protecting your own workers, sir, were less than the 9 10 ACGIH standards, were they not? 10 11 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 11 12 the question. What do you mean by "less"? 12 13 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 13 14 Q. You can answer it, sir. 14 15 A. Well, we -- we were trying to always 15 16 do better than what the standards were, whether it 16 17 be the ACGIH or whether it be the OSHA standards. 17 18 We were always trying to do better than the 18 19 standards. 19 20 Q. Yes, but, when it came to protecting 20 21 your own employees, you tried to do better than what 21 22 the ACGIH standards were, true? 22 23 A. When we were trying -- when we were 23 24 trying to have our operations in the plant -- we 24 25 were trying -- always trying to do better than what 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 111 the standards were. Q. And, in fact, there were standards that you sought to achieve within the plant that were below the ACGIH standards, true? MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of the question. What do you mean by "below"? BY MR. PLACITELLA: Q. You can answer it. A. Well, I believe we had an internal standard of trying to do two and a half million particles per cubic foot of air, when the standard was five. Q. Yes, sir, the standard was five, but what you used was 2.5, true? A. We tried to -- well, we certainly tried to arrive at that figure in the plants, yes. Q. And you even tried to keep it under 2.5, if you could, true? A. Well, if you could have -- if you could have it -- we tried to do the best we could to be well within the standards and we had internal standards. Q. And at 2.5, sir, am I correct that your hygienist advised you that you can't even see asbestos in the air at 2.5? Page 112 A. The hygienist advised us? I mean, maybe there is something in writing. I don't remember that or recall that. What year was that? Q. I'm asking you the questions, sir. A. Well, I don't know -- I don't remember anything -- seeing anything like that. Q. Are you aware, sir, that you cannot see -- at 2.5 you cannot see asbestos dust in the air? A. I'm not aware of it or not -- I don't know whether you can or you can't. Q. Are you aware, sir, whether you can see asbestos dust in the air at five million particles per cubic foot? A. I don't know whether you can or you can't. Q. So, was it a standard within the CertainTeed plants that, if you could see asbestos in the air, you should protect yourself? A. Was it a standard? Q. Yes. A. I mean, our policy was, sir, that we tried to protect everybody in the plant and there were applicable standards at the time. We tried -- 28 (Pages 109 to 112) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 113 1 we had internal standards and we were trying to meet 1 2 those internal standards to the best of our ability. 2 3 Q. Yes, sir, and was it a warning sign, 3 4 "If you see asbestos, wear a respirator"? Was that 4 5 part of your policy? 5 6 A. A warning sign? 6 7 I don't remember that. I mean -- 7 8 but, if there was an area, it was posted -- there 8 9 was an area which was above the applicable standard, 9 10 then you were to wear a respirator until it was 10 11 corrected. 11 12 Q. Was it understood, sir, that, if a 12 13 worker could see asbestos in the air, that he should 13 14 protect himself or herself by wearing a respirator? 14 15 A. Understood by whom? 15 16 Q. By CertainTeed. By the employees at 16 17 CertainTeed. 17 18 A. It was understood, sir, that, if the 18 19 area was posted as being not within the applicable 19 20 standard, they were to wear a respirator. 20 21 Q. And what areas were posted as not 21 22 being within the applicable standard? 22 23 A. Well, it depends if there was a 23 24 foul-up at the -- at that particular area. There 24 25 was times when there were areas that were generating 25 Page 114 1 fibers with counts that were above the applicable 1 2 standard, so respirators were required in that area 2 3 until such time as it could be corrected. 3 4 Q. Well, sir, you have maintenance 4 5 people in your plants? 5 6 A. Yes, we do. 6 7 Q. Beginning in '62? 7 8 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. And did you make respirators 9 10 available to maintenance people? 10 11 A. When they had to go in and clean out 11 12 various areas where we knew the -- that the release 12 13 would be such that would it would be above the 13 14 applicable standards, yes. 14 15 Q. What about the maintenance people who 15 16 would have to sweep up the dust that was left over 16 17 from the manufacturing process? Were they given 17 18 respirators? 18 19 A. I mean, I can't answer your question 19 20 any more than I have, sir. If there was an area 20 21 where you would generate fiber greater than the 21 22 applicable standard, you had to wear a respirator. 22 23 Q. So, when a maintenance person went in 23 24 with a broom, he would do one sweep and then they 24 25 would do a dust count and then they'd decide whether 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 115 he had to wear a respirator or not? A. No, that's not -- it didn't happen that way. MR. EDELL: I think that was a poor attempt at humor. BY MR. PLACITELLA: Q. So my question is, if somebody was charged with sweeping up the asbestos fiber that had fallen to the ground, were they provided respirators? A. Well, we tried to do -- eventually we evolved away from doing sweeping -- dry sweeping. We either used vacuums or we used wet removal of anything on the floors. But, if, in fact -- I mean, counts were done through the plant periodically and, if a certain operation would necessitate the use of a respirator, the respirators were worn or it was -and it was corrected as soon as possible. Q. Did you provide maintenance people who were sweeping up the plant with respirators? A. Maintenance people had access to the respirators, and whether they needed one when they were sweeping up the plant or not, I don't know. Depending on when it was done. Page 116 Q. Okay. Was there ever a time when you provided maintenance people with respirators? A. Yes. Q. Maintenance people who just did sweeping? A. No. Q. Did you ever supply respirators to maintenance people who were charged with sweeping? A. Well, I don't know -- what maintenance people were charged with sweeping? Generally, the person who was at that station did his own clean-up. Q. And, when he did the clean-up, was -did he wear a respirator? A. There were counts done and, if the clean-up required a respirator, he would wear one. Q. Okay. The people in packaging -- in shipping -A. Packaging. Q. -- in shipping. Did you have a shipping department? A. Yes. Q. Were those -- was there ventilation 29 (Pages 113 to 116) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 117 1 equipment installed in the shipping department? 1 2 A. Well, shipping is generally out in 2 3 the -- in the yard. I mean, that's where the 3 4 shipping takes place, in the yard. 4 5 Q. Well, was there a place from where 5 6 the pipe left the building and went onto a truck? 6 7 A. Yes, certainly. 7 8 Q. Okay. 8 9 A. That was from finishing going out to 9 10 the yard. There was res -- excuse me -- there was 10 11 ventilation in the finishing department. 11 12 Q. All right. 12 13 So, what went on in the finishing 13 14 department? 14 15 A. The pipe -- the ends of the pipe were 15 16 machined so you could put a coupling on. The pipe 16 17 was also tested. The -- and if the pipe was damaged 17 18 in any way, then it would be cut into shorter 18 19 lengths. So there were cut-off saws. Coupling 19 20 stock was cut, because the coupling stock was made 20 21 in 13-foot lengths, so they had to cut into the 21 22 lengths for the couplings, and it was also machined. 22 23 After it was -- came out of the 23 24 finishing right there, it was put onto a -- it was 24 25 put onto a palleting station and it was packaged at 25 Page 118 1 that point, and then it was lifted up by a forklift 1 2 and it was taken out to the yard. 2 3 Q. The people who were working the 3 4 forklift, were they provided respirators? 4 5 A. Only if needed. 5 6 Q. Only if needed. What does that mean? 6 7 A. If there was anyplace that there was 7 8 a release of fiber that was greater than the 8 9 applicable standard, then they were required to wear 9 10 a respirator. 10 11 Q. So, if there was a release of fiber 11 12 above 2.5, the worker who was working the forklift 12 13 had to wear a respirator? 13 14 A. Well, 2.5 was never the applicable 14 15 standard; the applicable standard was five. And I 15 16 can't remember -- I mean, it's just not conceivable 16 17 that anybody wearing -- using a forklift would have 17 18 anything greater than -- in that neighborhood of a 18 19 5.0 million particles per cubic foot of air. 19 20 Q. So, then, why would you give them a 20 21 respirator? 21 22 A. I wasn't -- you asked me the 22 23 question, sir, and I'm saying -- you asked me 23 24 specifics, what if, what if, what if. 24 25 Q. Did you ever give a forklift operator 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 119 a respirator who was transporting asbestos-cement pipe? A. I never saw -- I've never seen -- the many times I was in the plant, I've never seen a forklift driver driving around with a respirator. Q. Was there a place within the plant where the piping was stacked in preparation for being shipped out? A. Stacked in preparation to be shipped out? Well, it went into -- it went into packaging right after it came down the finishing line. So it was packaged and then -- sure. I mean, did the forklift take it right out? No. It was sitting there for a while, and then the forklift would come in and take it out. Q. The packaging department, where was that located? A. In the finishing department. Q. And where the product was packaged, was there ventilation in place there? A. It was -- right at that specific point I don't know. I mean, all the ventilation in finishing was where the saws were actually doing the cutting. I mean, right at the packaging -- I Page 120 don't believe there was a hood right there at packaging because it wasn't required. Q. Were people involved in the packaging ever provided respirators? A. Anybody in the plant, sir, was provided a respirator if it was needed. Q. So, if I was working in a plant in 1962, and I wanted to protect myself from exposure to asbestos, there was a respirator available to me? A. Yes. Q. In addition to providing ventilation and respirators to employees at the plant, you also provided them medical examinations, did you not? A. Yes. Q. And that was beginning in 1962, true? A. I don't know -- I believe it was, but I'm not a hundred percent sure of that. Q. And the purpose of the medical examination was what? MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of the question. Are we talking about pre-employment or post-employment? MR. PLACITELLA: When somebody was in the plant in 1962. Did you give them pre-employment -- 30 (Pages 117 to 120) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 121 Page 123 1 MR. EDELL: Same objection. 2 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 3 Q. Did you give them pre-employment 4 medical examinations? 5 A. I had one when I came to work for the 6 company, yes. 7 Q. In 1962 was CertainTeed providing 8 pre-employment medical examinations? 9 A. I don't know the answer to that. 10 Q. Were they providing post-employment 11 medical examinations? 12 A. Yes. I can't tell you what year it 13 started, but it was prior to me coming with the 14 company. 15 Q. And what was the purpose of the 16 post-employment medical examinations? 17 A. To make certain that there wasn't 18 any -- any disease developing in the employee. 19 Q. And, when you say "any disease 20 developing," what do you mean by that? 21 A. Any disease that would be 22 attributable to an operation in the plant. 23 Q. And what -- were X-rays given? 24 A. Yes, there were X-rays, yes. 25 Q. And who was the person who, in the 1 Q. About -- anything about the dangers 2 of asbestos that was not known before. 3 As soon as you knew it you made sure 4 the employees knew it; you didn't hold anything 5 back? 6 A. Well, I mean, I can't tell you every 7 piece of paper that came into the corporation was 8 circulated to the plant. I only can assure you that 9 there were safety meetings at the plant as to how to 10 operate in a closed environment with high-powered 11 saws and in an operation where asbestos was being 12 released -13 Q. At some -14 A. -- major being released. 15 Q. At some point in time it became known 16 to CertainTeed that asbestos could cause cancer, 17 true? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And, when that information was known 20 to -- made known to CertainTeed, that information 21 was transferred and provided to its employees, true? 22 A. The -- the information they had on 23 asbestosis and the information they had on lung 24 cancer or meso was transmitted to the employees 25 through safety meetings, but they -- the employees Page 122 Page 124 1 Ambler plant, was in charge of the medical 1 knew why we had ventilation systems in the plant. 2 examinations and the X-rays? 2 Q. And who ran these safety meetings? 3 A. There was a -- as I mentioned, there 3 A. It was generally conducted by the 4 was a doctor who was in a private practice, but 4 plant manager. 5 he -- he also was the attending doctor for the 5 Q. And who was that at Ambler? 6 plant. 6 A. What time period? 7 Q. And there came a time, did there not, 7 Q. During the 1960s. 8 when the employees in a CertainTeed plant were 8 A. I can't answer prior to when I came, 9 warned specifically about the dangers of asbestos? 9 but, when I came to work for CertainTeed, I think it 10 True? 10 was -- Dan Maloney was the plant manager at Ambler. 11 A. They were educated about what 11 Q. Now, when you said they had these 12 asbestos could do or could not do and how to handle 12 safety meetings, how did they occur? Did everybody 13 it safely. 13 get called into a room at the same time? Were they 14 Q. And that was the day that CertainTeed 14 done by department? How was it done? 15 took over the plant, true? 15 A. It was done where -- it was up to the 16 A. Yes. 16 plant manager to handle the safely meetings as he 17 Q. And whatever was known to CertainTeed 17 saw fit and not necessarily inhibit the operations 18 about the dangers of asbestos was made known to the 18 of the plant. 19 employees; nothing was held back, true? 19 So, I mean, was the plant shut down? 20 A. We didn't hold anything back on 20 No. 21 anybody. 21 Q. Was the information transferred by 22 Q. So, as soon as you knew it you made 22 word of mouth or was it also in writing? 23 sure the employees knew it, because it was important 23 A. It was primarily by -- I mean, if 24 to protect them, true? 24 there was any specific information that was written 25 A. Knew what? 25 up by somebody in the company, that was obviously 31 (Pages 121 to 124) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 125 Page 127 1 handed out or posted, but I imagine most of the 1 or working with it. Excuse me. Working with it. 2 safety meetings were by mouth. 2 Q. And despite, sir, all of the measures 3 Q. When the disease known as 3 that were taken by CertainTeed to protect its 4 mesothelioma caused by asbestos was made known to 4 employees, they still got sick inside the plants, 5 CertainTeed, that's information they provided to 5 did they not? 6 their employees, true? 6 A. I don't know whether it was because 7 MR. EDELL: Can I hear the question 7 of CertainTeed or whether it was because of past 8 read back, please? 8 employment. I mean, somebody other than me has to 9 (Pertinent portion of the record is 9 determine that. 10 read.) 10 Q. Well, when you say "past employment," 11 MR. EDELL: I'm going to object to 11 what do you mean by that? 12 the form of the question. When you say "caused by," 12 A. Well, they -- most of the employees 13 you mean definitively proven? Do you mean that it 13 had -- had previous employments, as far as the 14 became a possibility? 15 Mr. PLACITELLA: I mean caused by. 14 plants, with Keasbey & Mattison. 15 Q. Yes, but you told me that those same 16 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 16 protections were in place when you took over. 17 Q. Do you know what that means? Caused? 17 A. Well, you know, you said that and I 18 Do you know what caused means, Mr. Ambler? 18 agreed with it, but we enhanced the protection as 19 A. Yes. 19 soon as we took the plants over. 20 Q. All right. 20 I can't tell you what happened in 21 When it was first known that asbestos 21 Keasbey & Mattison as far as safety meetings or 22 could cause mesothelioma -- 22 anything else. I only can tell you what we did, and 23 MR. EDELL: Now you say could cause. 23 we enhanced our systems when we took the plants 24 It's different than caused. 24 over. 25 MR. PLACITELLA: I'm asking a 25 Q. But there were protections in place Page 126 Page 128 1 different question. Why don't you switch the tape. 1 at the plant when you took over, true? 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at 2 A. There was ventilation systems in 3 12:10. 3 place. 4 (Discussion is held off the record.) 4 Q. And respirators were available when 5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record 5 you took over, true? 6 at 12:11. 6 A. They were available, yes. 7 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 7 Q. And, despite those protections, sir, 8 Q. When CertainTeed was advised that 8 the -- CertainTeed employees got sick, true? 9 asbestos was associated with mesothelioma, they 9 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 10 didn't hold that information back from their 10 the question. When you say "those protections" -- 11 employees; they told them, true? 11 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 12 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 12 Q. The protections that were in the 13 the question. I don't know what you mean by 13 plant, including ventilation and respiratory 14 "associated with." 14 equipment. Despite those protections, the people 15 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 15 who worked in the plant still got sick, true? 16 Q. You can answer it. 16 MR. EDELL: When it was being run by 17 A. When CertainTeed was -- when 17 Keasbey & Mattison? You are talking about those 18 CertainTeed became aware that there was a possible 18 protections, right? 19 connection with asbestos and mesothelioma or any 19 MR. PLACITELLA: He understands the 20 disease, they shared that information. 20 question. 21 Q. And they had safety meetings about 21 MR. EDELL: I want to make sure 22 that? 22 everybody understands the question. 23 A. They -- well, they had safety 23 MR. PLACITELLA: It doesn't matter if 24 meetings about what asbestos could do and how it 24 everybody understands it. It only matters whether 25 could be harmful and safe ways of using asbestos -- 25 he understood it. 32 (Pages 125 to 128) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 129 Page 131 1 Did you understand my question, sir? 1 Q. He was in charge -- he was involved 2 Did you understand my question, sir? 2 in health and safety, was he not, sir? 3 MR. EDELL: It's important that there 3 A. What do you mean? I don't understand 4 is no ambiguity. 4 that question. 5 MR. PLACITELLA: No. It's important 5 Q. He was involved in helping protect 6 that you don't coach the witness. 6 the employees from exposure to asbestos, true? 7 MR. EDELL: I'm not coaching the 7 A. He was in charge of -- in 8 witness. 8 engineering -- he was a part of the engineering -- 9 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 9 plant engineering, to work on the dust collection 10 Q. All right. Let me ask the question 10 systems and also work in processing -- processing 11 this way. 11 and the manufacturing of the product. 12 Despite the protections that were in 12 Q. So he would clearly understand what 13 place when you took over, and the protections that 13 was safe and not safe, in terms of the applicable 14 you improved, people in the plant still got sick, 14 limits at the time, true? 15 true? 15 A. Not necessarily. I mean, it was -- 16 A. There -- we had -- obviously we had 16 it was our understanding, if you could manufacture a 17 Workman's Comp claims for asbestos disease, but I 17 product within the applicable standards, you were 18 don't know where it generated from -- where the 18 manufacturing a safe product. 19 disease originated from. 19 Q. Well, was he exposed within or 20 I can only tell you that, when we 21 took the plants over in '62, based on the 20 without the applicable standards? 21 A. I don't know where John got his 22 information I learned when I came to learn -- came 22 exposure from. I just don't know where John got his 23 to work for the company, we enhanced the systems. 23 exposure from. He worked for Keasbey a long time. 24 I don't know how good the systems 24 Q. He -- one of the things he was 25 were at Keasbey & Mattison. I just don't know. I 25 involved with was making sure employees would not be Page 130 Page 132 1 don't know what safety meetings they went through, I 1 exposed to asbestos, true? 2 don't know what work practices they had in place. 2 A. He was in charge of -- of -- for that 3 Q. Sir, even the person who was in 3 time period he was in engineering, and he was 4 charge of protecting the employees at CertainTeed 4 working on the dust collection systems and he was 5 got mesothelioma, isn't that true? 5 also -- to enhance them, and he was also working on 6 A. No, that's not true. 6 process engineering. 7 Q. Who was Mr. McGinley, sir? 7 Q. One of his objectives, sir, was to 8 A. John McGinley? He wasn't in charge 8 prevent exposure to employees from asbestos, true? 9 of protecting the employees. 9 A. One of his objectives was to put dust 10 Q. What was his job? 10 collection systems or have plant operations where 11 A. He was in charge of -- depending -- 11 you'd be within the applicable standards. 12 when? Let me ask you that. 12 Q. So one of his objectives, sir, was to 13 Q. Well, during the 1960s what was his 13 protect employees from exposure to asbestos, true? 14 job, sir? 14 A. I can't answer your question any 15 A. During the '60s he was an engineer. 15 differently than I have done. 16 Q. He was not involved in doing dust 16 To make certain that you are running 17 counts, sir? 17 an operation that was within the applicable 18 A. Dust counts? 18 standards. 19 Q. Yes. 19 Q. So the employees would be healthy, 20 A. No, I don't think John -- 20 true? 21 Q. What was his job as an engineer? 21 A. If the -- that's right. It was our 22 A. He was obviously working on process 22 understanding, if you are within the applicable 23 equipment. He was also -- he did work on dust -- 23 standards, your employees are healthy, yes. 24 dust -- enhancing the dust collection systems. He 24 Q. And he got mesothelioma, did he not? 25 worked out at -- 25 A. Yes, he did. 33 (Pages 129 to 132) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 133 Page 135 1 Q. Now, there came a time, did there 1 A. Sir, I don't know. I'm not a doctor. 2 not, where it was suggested within the plant that 2 Q. Is diabetes a harmful disease? 3 employees be specifically warned in writing on the 3 A. I'm not a doctor, sir. 4 wall on a sign about cancer and asbestos, true? 4 Q. Is cancer a harmful disease? 5 A. There was a -- well, OSHA, in '72, 5 A. Yes, cancer is a harmful disease. 6 proposed a sign with "asbestos" on it, and "cancer," 6 Q. So, how would somebody know, when you 7 yes. 7 used the words "harmful disease," that it meant 8 Q. And that was discussed at 8 cancer? 9 CertainTeed, true? 9 A. I don't know how to answer that 10 A. I don't know where all the 10 question. I can only tell you what was being -- it 11 discussions took place at CertainTeed on that, I 11 was being discussed at the safety meetings what 12 wasn't a part of them, but obviously it was 12 the -- what the risks of asbestos were in the plant. 13 discussed, because CertainTeed commented on it. 13 Everybody in the plant knew what was happening. 14 Q. And CertainTeed rejected that, true? 14 Q. Everybody in the plant knew about 15 A. Well, they wanted the -- the 15 cancer? 16 gentleman that made the presentation to OSHA wanted 16 A. They knew about the harmful effects 17 a different sign. He didn't object to the sign. He 17 of asbestos if you didn't handle it properly. 18 objected to the wording. 18 Q. Including cancer? 19 Q. He objected to the word "cancer," 19 A. Whatever -- whatever -- that was 20 true? 20 discussed. Mesothelioma or lung cancer, or if you 21 A. That's correct, yes, but he did -- 21 were a heavy smoker or a smoker. 22 Q. Because he thought it would be -- 22 Q. Everybody in the plant knew about 23 MR. EDELL: Let him finish. 23 mesothelioma, true? 24 THE WITNESS: He did -- and we can 24 A. Well, I mean, it was discussed. It 25 get his testimony out, because obviously you have 25 was discussed. Page 134 Page 136 1 it -- he did say that harmful disease -- he did 1 Q. It was discussed amongst everybody in 2 suggest "harmful disease" on the sign. 2 the plant -- mesothelioma -- true? 3 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 3 MR. EDELL: Can we get a time frame 4 Q. CertainTeed refused to post a warning 4 here? I think we were going to break for lunch -- 5 about cancer in the workplace, true? 5 MR. PLACITELLA: I'm almost done. 6 A. I don't know what you mean by 6 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 7 refused. I mean, that was his suggestion. I can't 7 Q. Everybody in the plant knew about 8 really tell you what came out of OSHA on that, but, 8 mesothelioma as soon as CertainTeed knew about it, 9 whatever came out of OSHA, that's what CertainTeed 9 true? 10 did. 10 MR. EDELL: Knew about what? 11 Q. Did CertainTeed ever post in the 11 MR. PLACITELLA: Mesothelioma. 12 workplace a word about cancer and asbestos? 12 MR. EDELL: That it was a 13 A. I don't -- I can't verbatim sit here 13 possibility? 14 and tell you what was on the sign, but, whatever 14 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 15 OSHA required, that's what CertainTeed put on their 15 Q. That it was a possibility. That was 16 signs. 16 your testimony, right, sir? 17 Q. CertainTeed did not want to use the 17 A. Yes, CertainTeed became -- that 18 word "cancer" because it was, quote, too scary, 18 became something that they were aware of in like the 19 close quote? Do you remember that? 19 mid-'60s and it was discussed. These things were 20 A. That's what the gentleman said, yes, 20 discussed in -- 21 but he did say "harmful disease." 21 Q. And everybody in the plant knew it? 22 Q. Is there a difference to you, sir, 22 A. I don't know the answer to that 23 between "harmful disease" and "cancer"? 23 question. I can tell you it was discussed. 24 A. Well, cancer is a harmful disease. 24 Q. In the plant? 25 Q. Is gout a harmful disease, sir? 25 A. At meetings. 34 (Pages 133 to 136) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 137 Page 139 1 Q. With the workers? 1 times he said he wasn't sure. He knows they talked 2 A. With the workers. 2 about cancer, but he wasn't sure whether they talked 3 Q. Tell the ladies and gentlemen of the 3 about mesothelioma. 4 jury, when is the first time CertainTeed mentioned 4 THE WITNESS: We talked about cancer. 5 the word "mesothelioma" in relation to the sale of 5 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 6 asbestos-containing cement pipe. 6 Q. And, when you said "cancer," you 7 A. Well, it's an entirely -- a different 7 meant mesothelioma? 8 situation. 8 A. That's a part of cancer. Certainly. 9 Q. Isn't it true, sir, that, although 9 Q. So why didn't you just use the word 10 you told the employees in the plant about 10 "mesothelioma"? 11 mesothelioma, you never mentioned the word 11 A. I don't know the answer to that. 12 "mesothelioma" to a customer or a consumer ever? 12 Q. Well, sir, you were involved in the 13 A. That's not true. 13 labeling decisions, were you not? 14 Q. When is the first time you mentioned 14 A. I was a part of it. I wasn't in 15 the word "mesothelioma" -- 15 charge of it. 16 A. Oh. 16 Q. So why -- 17 Q. -- to a customer or a consumer? 17 A. Excuse me. By saying "cancer," to me 18 A. I may be wrong on that. We mentioned 18 you are telling the people what the risks are. It's 19 the word "cancer." We may not have mentioned the 19 cancer. Mesothelioma is a cancer. It's just like 20 meso. I'd have to look at what we said on the label 20 breast cancer or something like that. It's a 21 and also what was in the work practices, but 21 cancer. 22 "cancer" was used. 22 Q. And, when you don't say "cancer," you 23 Q. Cancer was not used until 1985? 23 are not telling them what the risks are, are you? 24 True, sir? 24 A. When you don't say "cancer." Well, 25 A. Cancer itself was not used until 25 we are talking about cancer now versus mesothelioma. Page 138 Page 140 1 1985, that's right. 1 Q. No. I'm talking about -- you said 2 Q. That was 20 years after you told the 2 cancer and mesothelioma, in your mind, are one and 3 workers in the plant, true? 3 the same -- 4 A. But there -- that's true, but there 4 A. No. 5 were different situations. In the plant every piece 5 Q. -- in terms of warnings. 6 of pipe was being machined with a high-powered saw. 6 A. I said mesothelioma is a cancer. 7 In the field the pipe was hardly ever -- never 7 Q. Okay. 8 machined, to speak of, and it was hardly ever cut. 8 And, when you are not telling 9 It was cut with manual ways. 9 somebody that it causes cancer, you are not giving 10 Q. Sir, to be clear, you never told a 10 them all the information, are you? 11 consumer or a customer anything about mesothelioma 11 A. Well, we -- I mean, if you are going 12 ever? 12 back earlier -- obviously you are -- we used "it 13 A. Well, sir, I'd have to look at what 13 could be harmful to your health." They were the 14 we said in the work practices. I know "cancer" was 14 terms that were used. 15 there. Whether the word "mesothelioma" was there or 15 Q. That's different than cancer, isn't 16 not, I don't know the answer to that. We can look 16 it, sir? 17 at it. I'm sure you have it. 17 A. It is, yes. 18 Q. You are the person that's being 18 Q. So, the first time you ever used the 19 produced with the most knowledge about what you told 19 word "cancer" was 1985, correct? 20 customers, and I'm asking you, sir, as you sit here 20 A. Yes. 21 today, can you say that you told customers about the 21 Q. What prevented you from using the 22 possibility of asbestos exposure causing 22 word "cancer" prior to 1985? 23 mesothelioma? 23 A. Nothing, other than the fact, as I 24 A. I've answered your question. 24 mentioned, we felt that, with our recommended work 25 MR. EDELL: He said he was -- three 25 practices, there wasn't a risk. 35 (Pages 137 to 140) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 141 Page 143 1 Q. Well, sir, isn't it a fact that you 1 A. I've seen some, yes. 2 refused to put the word "cancer" on the pipe in 1972 2 Q. In what context did you see them? 3 because you thought it was going to hurt sales? 3 A. Well, primarily in testimony at 4 A. On the pipe? 4 depositions or -- I can't remember if it was at 5 Q. Correct. 5 trial, but primarily depositions I've seen them. 6 A. Yes, but I believe that the reference 6 MR. PLACITELLA: I would make a 7 was for ingestion, not for inhalation, so it's a 7 request at this point for the production of any dust 8 totally different story. 8 counts produced concerning inside the plant by 9 Q. You were asked to put the word 9 CertainTeed in any other case. 10 "cancer" on the pipe in 1972, true? 10 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 11 A. By whom? 11 Q. Am I correct that there were people 12 Q. It was discussed within your company 12 who worked at CertainTeed who brought with them, at 13 whether to put the word "cancer" on the pipe in 13 the time of the changeover from Keasbey & Mattison 14 1972, true? 14 to CertainTeed, knowledge about the relationship 15 A. Well, it was a part of the OSHA -- 15 between asbestos and cancer? 16 proposed OSHA regulations at that point in 1972, but 16 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 17 it had to deal with the ingestion, not inhalation. 17 the question. 18 Q. It was rejected because it would hurt 18 THE WITNESS: I don't know the answer 19 sales, true? 19 to that question. 20 A. Because -- well, it was recommended 20 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 21 not to do it because of the ingestion issue. The 21 Q. Have you seen documents during the 22 ingestion issue was not an issue. 22 course of your preparation indicating that people 23 Q. Sir, it was -- you fought putting the 23 who worked for CertainTeed were informed about the 24 word "cancer" on the pipe in 1972 because it would 24 relationship between asbestos and cancer prior to 25 hurt sales, true? 25 the transfer of assets from Keasbey & Mattison to Page 142 Page 144 1 A. Because the cancer related to 1 CertainTeed? 2 ingestion. 2 A. Can you repeat -- read that back to 3 Q. Did you tell OSHA, in 1972, that, if 3 me, please. I'm sorry. 4 they made you put "cancer" on the pipe, it was going 4 (Pertinent portion of the record is 5 to make the product unsalable? 5 read.) 6 A. I answered your question, sir. Yes, 6 A. Documents that were written prior -- 7 because it was referring to the ingestion issue. 7 dated prior to '62? 8 Q. And then, in 1985, you finally put 8 Q. Correct. 9 "cancer" on the pipe, correct? 9 A. Well, I've never seen anything in 10 MR. EDELL: In a different context. 10 preparation -- that I can recall, in preparation for 11 THE WITNESS: In a different context, 11 a deposition. 12 exactly. 12 I mean, during a deposition I've seen 13 MR. EDELL: Let's break for lunch. 13 letters, but I can't remember what dates were on 14 MR. PLACITELLA: It's a good time. 14 them. 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at 15 Q. You are aware of a person who worked 16 12:28 p.m. 16 at the Ambler plant by the name of Mr. Horowitz, 17 (Discussion is held off the record.) 17 correct? 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record 18 A. I -- oh, I know of him. I don't know 19 at 1:17 p.m. 19 whether he worked at the Ambler plant or not. I 20 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 20 don't believe he did, but I could be wrong on that. 21 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Ambler. 21 Q. Who was Mr. Horowitz? 22 One thing before I move on. In the 22 A. He was the safety supervisor, in 23 course of your preparing for this deposition or 23 charge of safety for CertainTeed Corporation. 24 other depositions, have you ever reviewed the actual 24 Q. And prior to that for Keasbey & 25 dust counts that were done inside the plants? 25 Mattison, correct? 36 (Pages 141 to 144) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 145 Page 147 1 A. Yes. 1 Mr. Horowitz had about asbestos and cancer he would 2 MR. PLACITELLA: So let's have this 2 have brought with him as the safety director of 3 marked P Ambler 7. 3 CertainTeed, true? 4 (Exhibit Ambler 7 is marked for 4 MR. EDELL: I'm going to object to 5 identification.) 5 the form of that question. You are asking the 6 MR. EDELL: My only objection at this 6 witness to hypothesize -- 7 juncture is that it's a highlighted document. 7 MR. PLACITELLA: No, I'm not. 8 MR. PLACITELLA: I'll substitute it, 8 MR. EDELL: Yes, you are. 9 but I want him to focus -- 9 MR. PLACITELLA: No, I'm not. 10 MR. EDELL: And I don't know what the 10 MR. EDELL: You didn't give him any 11 last page is. 11 directions in the beginning -- 12 MR. PLACITELLA: I think that's how 12 MR. PLACITELLA: It's an objection 13 it was produced at Doris Fegan's deposition. 13 you are not allowed to make. 14 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 14 MR. EDELL: No. I'm allowed to tell 15 Q. I'm going to show you what's been 15 him that he's not supposed to guess. 16 marked Ambler 7, which is a June 8th, 1961 minutes 16 MR. PLACITELLA: You are not allowed 17 of the Asbestos Textile Institute's Air Hygiene and 17 to make that kind of objection and you know it. 18 Manufacturing Committee. 18 MR. EDELL: I think I am. 19 Have you ever seen that before? 19 MR. PLACITELLA: No, you're not. 20 A. I don't recall it, sir. 20 MR. EDELL: Since you didn't give him 21 Q. In attendance is Mr. Horowitz, 21 that instruction -- 22 correct? 22 MR. PLACITELLA: He's been through 80 23 A. Yes. 23 depositions. He know the rules. 24 Q. And Mr. Horowitz, at that time, in 24 MR. EDELL: I have no idea. I wasn't 25 1961, was the safety director in charge of Keasbey & 25 at any of those depositions. Page 146 Page 148 1 Mattison, true? 1 MR. PLACITELLA: So, you never read 2 A. I don't know what his title was at 2 one, Mr. Edell? 3 Keasbey & Mattison, but he was somewhat involved 3 MR. EDELL: I read some, but I didn't 4 in -- he was involved in safety, yes. 4 see in -- anybody state "Don't guess." 5 Q. And it says -- where is he from? 5 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 6 A. Ambler, Pennsylvania. 6 Q. Is it your belief, sir, that whatever 7 Q. And does this document talk about -- 7 information Mr. Horowitz had about asbestos and 8 A. Excuse me. I'm sorry. It says -- 8 cancer, he would have brought with him when he took 9 Keasbey & Mattison is in Ambler, Pennsylvania. 9 over as safety director for CertainTeed? 10 Q. Correct. 10 A. It's my belief, sir, that he would 11 A. I don't know where Leon lived. 11 have -- if he would have retained any information 12 Q. And does the document discuss the 12 that he heard or read of somebody's opinion and -- 13 fact that there was a meeting where the relationship 13 he certainly would have brought that, no matter 14 between asbestos and cancer was raised? 14 where he went. 15 MR. EDELL: I'm going to object to 15 Q. Of course. 16 the question. This document -- this witness has no 16 Now, you are aware that -- I think 17 familiarity with this document whatsoever. 17 you mentioned before Mr. Barr, Neil Barr? 18 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 18 A. No, sir, I didn't mention him. 19 Q. Answer the question. 19 Q. Do you know who he is? 20 A. And the question was? Excuse me. 20 A. Barr -- not offhand, no. 21 Q. Is the relationship between asbestos 21 Q. Do you know what the Asbestos Textile 22 and cancer referred to in this document? 22 Institute was? 23 A. Yes, it is. 23 A. I'd have to make an assumption. 24 Q. Okay. 24 CertainTeed was not a member of the Asbestos Textile 25 And presumably any information that 25 Institute. 37 (Pages 145 to 148) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 149 1 Q. But various members -- or various 1 2 employees and executives of CertainTeed were at one 2 3 time representative and attended meetings at the 3 4 Asbestos Textile Institute, true? 4 5 A. I don't know -- I know Leon went to a 5 6 couple meetings after he came with CertainTeed, but 6 7 I don't know who else went. 7 8 Q. Did you know the director of sales 8 9 went? 9 10 A. To the American Textile Institute? 10 11 Q. Correct. 11 12 A. Director of sales for the pipe 12 13 division? 13 14 Q. Yes, sir. 14 15 A. No, I did not know that. Can you 15 16 show me that? 16 17 Q. We'll get there. 17 18 Now -- 18 19 A. I'm not seeing any documents where 19 20 the director of sales went, but I don't know. 20 21 Q. We'll get there in due time, okay? 21 22 Are you aware as to whether Mr. 22 23 McGinley, who ultimately died of mesothelioma while 23 24 employed by CertainTeed, attended meetings of the 24 25 Asbestos Textile Institute? 25 Page 150 1 A. I believe I've seen John -- excuse 1 2 me -- John's name on the attendance list of one 2 3 meeting. I believe I have seen that. 3 4 Q. And that was a confidential meeting 4 5 where they discussed cancer, was it not? 5 6 A. I don't know. I'd have to read it. 6 7 Q. And this was Mr. McGinley who I asked 7 8 you before whether he was ever involved in health 8 9 and safety? Wasn't that the capacity he attended 9 10 the Asbestos Textile Institute meetings? 10 11 A. I don't know what capacity -- he 12 attended it in his capacity with the company. 11 12 13 Q. And do you know, as you sit here 13 14 today, whether he attended meetings himself where 14 15 the subject of asbestos and cancer was discussed? 15 16 A. I don't know what was discussed at 16 17 that meeting that I recall seeing his name on the 17 18 attendance list. 18 19 Q. Do you recall going over that in 19 20 prior depositions and being asked those very 20 21 questions? 21 22 A. I may have. 22 23 Q. Just to make it easy for you, why 23 24 don't you take that. 24 25 MR. EDELL: I don't know what he's 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 151 going to do with it, so... MR. PLACITELLA: Why don't we mark that next. (Exhibit Ambler 8 is marked for identification.) BY MR. PLACITELLA: Q. You have in front of you a prior deposition you gave in the McNabb case, correct? A. Yes. Q. And that was not that long ago? It was in 2009, the same year that we are in, correct? January 13, 2009? A. Yes. Q. You were asked questions by Mr. Madeksho (sic). Do you recall him? A Texas accent, young guy? A. Yes. Q. And would you look at Page 112 of your deposition, sir. A. Okay. Q. And does that refresh your memory, sir, as to whether you had testified, back in January this year, about whether Mr. McGinley went to an Asbestos Textile Institute meeting where the subject of asbestos and cancer was raised? Page 152 A. Well, I answered that question. I believe John did go to an American Textile Institute meeting. Q. Where the subject of asbestos and cancer was raised? A. Well, I think that -- did he not show me a letter and he was asking me -- Q. Yes, sir, and you read the letter. A. Right. Q. And it said, under "Asbestosis and cancer," the second paragraph, "Does that indeed read 'The British and South Africans have associated lung cancer and asbestosis -A. Okay. Q. -- since '35'"? It says, "Yes," correct? A. I read the letter and said "Yes." Q. And that was a meeting that Mr. McGinley was at, true? A. Yes. Q. And that's the same Mr. McGinley who ultimately died of mesothelioma after working for many years for CertainTeed, true? A. Yes. Q. Now, soon after -- 38 (Pages 149 to 152) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 153 Page 155 1 A. Are we done with this? 1 other. 2 Q. For now. Why don't you just keep it 2 Q. You've seen this document, however, 3 there because I may ask you more questions. So just 3 many times in depositions, have you not? 4 put it off to the side, if you want. 4 A. I have seen it many times, yes. 5 Soon after -- I even highlighted all 5 Q. And this document is a document that 6 the things I might ask him about. There you go. 6 was authored by Mr. Horowitz, true? 7 Soon after CertainTeed took over the 7 A. Well, I don't have the document in 8 asbestos-cement pipe business they sent Mr. 8 front of me, sir. 9 Horowitz, as the safety director, to the conference 9 Yes. Yes, it was. 10 hosted and organized by a Dr. Irving Selikoff, true? 10 Q. And it was authored by Mr. Horowitz 11 A. Yes. 11 while he was in charge of safety for the CertainTeed 12 Q. And after he went to that meeting, at 12 Corporation, true? 13 the request of CertainTeed, he generated a memo, did 13 A. Yes. 14 he not, discussing what he heard and what his 14 Q. And the date of the document is 15 recommendations were as a result of that conference? 15 November 16, 1964? 16 A. There was a memo prepared, yes. 16 A. Yes. 17 MR. PLACITELLA: Why don't we mark 17 Q. And the subject is Conference on 18 this next. 18 Biological Effects of Asbestos, New York Academy of 19 (Exhibit Ambler 9 is marked for 19 Sciences, correct? 20 identification.) 20 A. Yes. 21 MR. PLACITELLA: This is not one of 21 Q. And it's to a number of people. One 22 the exhibits you went over with him, Marc? 22 is a Mr. M.S. Davis, Jr. Do you know who he is? 23 MR. EDELL: It's very difficult to 23 A. I knew who he was. 24 read. 24 Q. Who was he? 25 MR. PLACITELLA: Best copy you gave 25 A. He was head of the pipe division at Page 154 Page 156 1 me. Actually, I had to get it from Shep Hauptman. 1 that time. 2 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 2 Q. And the next one is cc to Mr. R.L. -- 3 Q. Sir, while Mr. Edell is looking at 3 is that Louis? 4 the document that we've just put in front of you, 4 A. Lance. 5 you've seen that document before, have you not? 5 Q. Lance. And who was he? 6 A. I didn't look at it, sir. 6 A. He -- I don't know what his position 7 Q. You didn't look at it at all? 7 was, but he worked in -- in -- when I came to work 8 A. No, I haven't looked at it. I just 8 for the company he was working in the Ambler 9 handed it to -- 9 technical offices. 10 Q. Well, here is a copy. Tell me if 10 Q. And then there was a Mr. J.L. 11 you've seen this document before. Without my 11 Anderson. 12 highlighting, of course. 12 A. Yes. 13 A. I have seen this through depositions. 13 Q. Do you see that? 14 I never saw it while I was working for the company. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. But was reviewing this document part 15 Q. And who was he? 16 of the research you did in preparing for testifying 16 A. At that point I believe Jack was in 17 in this case? 17 engineering -- central engineering. 18 A. No. 18 Q. What was his job? Was he in charge? 19 Q. Had you ever reviewed this document 19 A. I don't -- I don't know whether Jack 20 in preparation for testimony in any other case? 20 was in charge or not. 21 A. Not that I'm aware of. 21 Q. Was Anderson somebody that was 22 Q. Do you know whether this document is 22 involved in ensuring that workers were not exposed 23 part of the corporate records of CertainTeed 23 to asbestos through the use of ventilation? 24 Corporation? 24 A. He was -- he had responsibility 25 A. I don't know that one way or the 25 for -- just like John McGinley did, for dust 39 (Pages 153 to 156) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 157 Page 159 1 collection systems and also worked with process 2 equipment. 3 Q. And who is Mr. Shaw? Is that Dr. 4 Shaw? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And who is he? 7 A. I don't know. Never heard of him 8 until these depositions and did not know him. 9 Q. And this memo pertains to the pipe 10 division, true? 11 A. Well, it pertains to -- to 12 CertainTeed and it pertains to asbestos, and the 13 pipe division was in asbestos, obviously. 14 Q. Well, it didn't go to the person who 15 was in charge of the siding; it went to the person 16 who was in charge of the pipe, right? 17 A. Well, I don't know who Dr. Shaw was 18 and what his responsibilities were. 19 Q. Well, he was cc'd. I'm talking about 20 Mr. Davis, the one who was principally the 21 addressee. 22 He was in charge of the pipe 23 division, true? 24 A. Yes, he was. 25 Q. Okay. 1 Q. Right. 2 And this was the same Turner Brothers 3 who had members of the Board of Directors on 4 CertainTeed, true? 5 A. I don't know the answer to that 6 question. Turner-Newall were the ones that had 7 the -- and I don't know the connection between 8 Turner Brothers and Turner-Newall. 9 Q. You don't know that they are the same 10 company? 11 A. I don't know if they are or they 12 aren't. 13 Q. Assuming that they are one and the 14 same company, if Turner Brothers were way ahead of 15 the rest of the United States, then CertainTeed 16 would have been way ahead of the United States 17 because they had a Board of Directors -- people from 18 Turner Brothers on their Board of Directors, true? 19 A. There is no way I can answer that 20 question. Number 1, I don't know exactly what the 21 Turner Brothers -- what their relation was with the 22 two people that were on the board, I don't know what 23 the relationship was between them and Turner-Newall, 24 and all I can say is this was their opinion. 25 Q. Did they tell Mr. Horowitz in their Page 158 Page 160 1 So, the concerns raised in this memo 1 meeting that in England the Board of Insurance had 2 related to the pipe division; not the shingle 2 accepted asbestosis as a cause of lung cancer going 3 division, true? 3 back to 1931? 4 A. Well, I don't know if this got to 4 A. That's what this letter states. 5 the -- probably that's right. 6 Q. Okay. 5 Q. Did they tell Mr. Horowitz that the 6 dust sampling and counting methods that were being 7 Now, does it also say in the first 7 used in the United States were inadequate because 8 paragraph that a Dr. Shaw did his own report? 8 they did not count all of the asbestos fibers? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Does it indicate that Mr. Horowitz, 9 A. Where are you reading that from, sir? 10 I'm sorry. 11 as safety director for CertainTeed, had a meeting 11 Q. Paragraph Number 5. 12 with representatives of the Turner Brothers Asbestos 12 A. That was their opinion, yes. 13 Company? 13 Q. And then Mr. Horowitz goes on to 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And that one of the things that was 14 relate to the executives at CertainTeed what 15 actually transpired at the conference itself, true? 16 discussed was that the Turner Brothers Asbestos 16 A. Where -- he -- you are taking that 17 Company was way ahead of the United States, in terms 17 from this first page? 18 of knowledge of asbestos and disease, true? And how 18 Q. Yes, sir. 19 to prevent it? 19 A. He -- 20 A. What was that question again? 20 Q. The bottom paragraph. 21 (Pertinent portion of the record is 21 A. He's relating to Mr. Davis and the 22 read.) 22 copyholders as to what was presented at this 23 Well, if we are just referring to the 23 conference. 24 first paragraph, that's the Turner Brothers' 24 Q. Yes, that's what I'm saying. 25 opinion, that they were ahead of the United States. 25 We agree? 40 (Pages 157 to 160) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 161 1 A. Yes. 1 2 Q. And what he says is that there 2 3 appears to be an accumulation of evidence of the 3 4 association of asbestos with cancer, correct? 4 5 MR. EDELL: It would be a lot 5 6 easier -- this is a really bad copy -- if you -- 6 7 MR. PLACITELLA: Do you have a better 7 8 copy? 8 9 MR. EDELL: -- if you point -- 9 10 MR. PLACITELLA: No, I'm serious. If 10 11 you have one, I'll be happy to substitute it. 12 MR. EDELL: I don't have a better 11 12 13 copy with me. 13 14 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. 14 15 MR. EDELL: If you want to refer to a 15 16 particular paragraph, it would go much quicker. 16 17 MR. PLACITELLA: I'm still on the 17 18 bottom paragraph, first page. 18 19 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 19 20 Q. Concerning the conference itself, 20 21 there appears to be an accumulation of evidence of 21 22 the association of asbestos with cancer? 22 23 A. That's what was reported at the 23 24 conference. 24 25 Q. That's what he learned and that's 25 Page 162 1 what he reported back to the executives at 1 2 CertainTeed, true? 2 3 MR. EDELL: This is what the document 3 4 says. 4 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's what he 5 6 heard said at the conference, and he wrote a letter 6 7 to the individuals who we discussed earlier. 7 8 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 8 9 Q. And then, if we go to the second 9 10 page, he talks about things he heard at the 10 11 conference that, if proved to be true, would hurt 11 12 the asbestos-cement pipe industry, true? 12 13 First full paragraph. 13 14 MR. EDELL: First full paragraph 14 15 says -- 15 16 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 16 17 Q. "Some of the observations." Do you 17 18 see that? 18 19 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. Okay. 20 21 MR. EDELL: "If proved conclusive, 21 22 would affect." 22 23 MR. PLACITELLA: "Would affect our 23 24 industry." 24 25 MR. EDELL: That's what it says. 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 163 BY MR. PLACITELLA: Q. Your industry being the asbestos-cement pipe industry, true? MR. EDELL: It didn't say "hurt." It said it would affect them, correct? BY MR. PLACITELLA: Q. Affect, correct? A. Yes. Q. Well, did you think that this information was going to help or hurt the industry? A. What information? Q. About asbestos causing cancer. A. It's certainly going to hurt the industry if, in fact, you are not doing anything to -- MR. EDELL: I'm sorry. THE WITNESS: -- if you are not doing anything to control the situation. BY MR. PLACITELLA: Q. Okay. So what he says is, this is what was discussed and it could hurt our industry, and then he goes on to talk about what was discussed, true? MR. EDELL: That's not what he says. Objection to the form of the question. Page 164 THE WITNESS: It would affect our industry. BY MR. PLACITELLA: Q. Meaning -A. That's Leon's opinion. Q. Right. Meaning, it could hurt the industry, true? A. Well, would or could. Q. Okay. A. That's his opinion, yes. Q. And the first thing it talks about is, Number 1, malignant mesothelioma. Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. And what does it say in Number 1? A. It says what it says. Q. What does it say, sir? Could you read it? MR. EDELL: No, he's not here to read aloud into the record what the document says. BY MR. PLACITELLA: Q. I'll read it. You tell me if I read it correctly, okay? A. Yes. MR. EDELL: No, he's not going to 41 (Pages 161 to 164) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 165 1 tell you whether you read it correctly. If you have 1 2 a question about the document, ask him the question. 2 3 MR. PLACITELLA: I'm going to ask him 3 4 a question. 4 5 MR. EDELL: Okay. 5 6 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 6 7 Q. It says, "Malignant mesothelioma, 7 8 cancer associated with asbestos, has been found in 8 9 cancers with no occupational exposure to asbestos." 9 10 Do you see that? 10 11 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. Do you know whether this is the first 12 13 time that CertainTeed was informed about the 13 14 relationship between mesothelioma and 14 15 non-occupational exposure to asbestos? 15 16 MR. EDELL: And how is that going to 16 17 hurt CertainTeed? 17 18 MR. PLACITELLA: That's an improper 18 19 objection, sir. I'm asking him a question. 19 20 THE WITNESS: And the question is, 20 21 again? I'm sorry. 21 22 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 22 23 Q. Was this the first time that 23 24 CertainTeed was made aware of an association between 24 25 mesothelioma and a non-occupational exposure to 25 Page 166 1 asbestos? 2 A. I don't know the answer to that 3 question. 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. By the way, it's not "in cancers;" 6 it's "in cases." 7 Q. I don't know what you are talking 8 about. 9 A. Well, when you read it -10 MR. EDELL: You read it improperly. 11 THE WITNESS: -- you said "in 12 cancers," and it's "in cases." 13 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 14 Q. It says, "Malignant mesothelioma, 15 cancer associated with asbestos," doesn't it? 16 MR. EDELL: "Has been found in 17 cases," he said. You said "cancers." 18 MR. PLACITELLA: Oh, okay. 19 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 20 Q. "In cases with no occupational 21 exposure to asbestos." We agree? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Okay. 24 "There have been included animals who 25 lived in areas surrounding a factory or a mine." 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 167 Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. Was that information ever made known to CertainTeed before this document was written, if you know? A. I don't know. Q. "People in the area may be affected by waste dumps outside a plant or mine." Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. Is that the first time that this information was given to CertainTeed, to your knowledge? A. The first time information has been given to CertainTeed about observations made at this conference? Q. No. About the people getting mesothelioma who were around waste dumps with asbestos. A. I don't know if there was any other information available or not prior to this memo. Q. Well, this was important to CertainTeed, was it not, because you, in fact, at Ambler, had your own waste dump next to the plant, didn't you? Page 168 A. We had a dump at the plant, yes. Q. In fact, you had so much asbestos in that dump that a scientist at one point said that it could qualify as its own asbestos mine, isn't that true? A. I don't -- I've never seen that. Q. Number 4 says, "The suspicion that asbestos fibers accumulate at the base of the lung and small doses can thereby have a cumulative affect." Do you see that? Do you see Number 4? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Is this -A. I say, yes, I can see it. Q. All right. To your knowledge, did CertainTeed have any information about this subject prior to the writing of this memo? A. I don't know the answer to that one way or the other. MR. EDELL: He wasn't employed by the company -- MR. PLACITELLA: He is the person, 42 (Pages 165 to 168) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 169 1 sir, that's being produced with the most knowledge 1 2 concerning CertainTeed's historical knowledge of 2 3 the dangers of asbestos. 3 4 MR. EDELL: You're right. You're 4 5 right. I apologize. 5 6 MR. PLACITELLA: Right. And, so, 6 7 your -- 7 8 MR. EDELL: I apologize. 8 9 MR. PLACITELLA: -- your objection is 9 10 improper. 10 11 MR. EDELL: I said I apologize. 11 12 MR. PLACITELLA: Your apology is 12 13 noted and accepted. Just don't do it again. 13 14 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 14 15 Q. It says, in Number 5, "Increased 15 16 evidence that insulation workers and laggers with 16 17 low exposure to asbestos dust are subject to 17 18 mesothelioma." 18 19 Do you see that? 19 20 A. I see what was written here, yes. 20 21 Q. Do you know, prior to the writing of 21 22 this memo, whether there was information in the 22 23 possession of CertainTeed concerning the fact or the 23 24 thought that low exposure to asbestos dust can cause 24 25 mesothelioma? 25 Page 170 1 A. I don't know one way or the other. 1 2 Q. Would you agree with me that Dr. 2 3 Horowitz cared about the health and safety of the 3 4 workers at the CertainTeed plant? 4 5 A. Oh, yes, I -- there is no doubt in my 6 mind that Leon was -- had -- he had -- did you say 5 6 7 concern? 7 8 Q. Concern. 9 A. He had -- he had -- 8 9 10 Q. He cared, I said. 10 11 A. He cared, yes. 11 12 Q. He was in earnest in his job, would 12 13 you agree with me? 13 14 A. Oh, yes, I think he was. As far as I 14 15 know. I never met the man. He left there the year 15 16 after I came with the company. 16 17 Q. But everything you know and 17 18 everything you've read would indicate that he took 18 19 his job seriously and he cared about the employees. 19 20 Would you agree with that? 20 21 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. Okay. 23 And that he was basically a pretty 24 good guy, by all accounts? 22 23 24 25 A. Sir, I never met him. 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 171 Q. Well, what's his reputation in the company? A. That -- I don't want to get into that. It's nobody's concern. I don't know -- I don't -- I didn't speak to enough people to find out what his reputation was. Q. His reputation was good enough that he held the position of safety -- head of safety for many years, true? MR. EDELL: It may just be because he was a good doctor. MR. PLACITELLA: He's not a doctor. MR. EDELL: You just called him a doctor. MR. PLACITELLA: Is that an objection? Okay. MR. EDELL: Assuming you were truthful with us. What's the question? BY MR. PLACITELLA: Q. Yes, sir? A. Is there a question pending? I'm sorry. I didn't mean to avoid you. I'm sorry. What was the question? Q. As a result of going to the Page 172 conference, would you agree that the safety director, Horowitz, had some concerns that he expressed directly to the executives at CertainTeed? A. He reported to the -- from this conference he reported to the executives of the pipe group the concerns that were raised at this meeting. Q. And, as the safety director, he recommended that certain actions be taken? A. On the next page he did, yes. Q. And he said, "We need answers to some questions," did he not? A. He said there needs to be answers to some questions, right, and he listed some questions. Q. And he has, what, 12 questions in the beginning? A. Yes. Q. The first question he says we need answers to is, "From the pathological point of view, what is an asbestos fiber and how it's to be positively identified." Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. Can you tell me what steps CertainTeed took to answer that question? A. I think it was somewhat of a 43 (Pages 169 to 172) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 173 1 rhetorical question, sir, and I think it was meant 1 2 to -- for the industry, because later on in the note 2 3 he -- he specifically said what he thought the 3 4 corporation should do. 4 5 Q. Well, was the corporation part of the 5 6 industry? 6 7 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. So, can you tell me what steps 8 9 CertainTeed took to answer Question Number 1? 9 10 A. I don't know what steps they took, 10 11 sir. I mean, they were working within the industry, 11 12 and I believe -- again, I mean, this to me is -- he 12 13 was saying what the industry should do and then on 13 14 the next page he said what CertainTeed should do. 14 15 Q. He asks, "One of the things they need 15 16 to know is the gravitational effect of asbestos 16 17 fiber in the lung," correct? 17 18 A. That's what the industry should be 18 19 doing, yes. 19 20 Q. And what did CertainTeed do to answer 20 21 that question, sir? 21 22 A. I don't know what specifically they 22 23 did. They worked with the industry, they joined 23 24 associations to make certain that everything was 24 25 being done. 25 Page 174 1 Q. And what was the answer to that 1 2 question, sir, the gravitational effect of asbestos 2 3 fiber in the lung? What answer did CertainTeed come 3 4 up with? 4 5 A. I don't know what answer they came up 5 6 with, if any at all. 6 7 Q. The truth of the matter is, sir, 7 8 nothing was done, true? 8 9 A. I didn't answer -- I didn't say that. 9 10 Q. Have you seen anything in your review 10 11 of any material in preparation for today's 11 12 deposition or any other deposition that would 12 13 indicate that CertainTeed did anything to answer 13 14 this question? 14 15 A. I don't know what CertainTeed did. I 15 16 have not seen anything. 16 17 Q. "The effect of duration of fiber in 17 18 the lung." 18 19 That's the third question he wanted 19 20 answered, correct? 20 21 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. Have you seen anything in any of the 22 23 material that you've ever reviewed on behalf of 23 24 CertainTeed to indicate whether they answered -- 24 25 made an endeavor to answer this question? 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 175 A. I've not seen anything in writing. Q. "Studies to see if different types of asbestos result in different types of cancer, if at all." That's the fourth question, is it not? A. Yes. Q. Can you tell me what CertainTeed did to answer this question? A. They worked within the industry and they worked in conjunction with OSHA trying to get answers to all the questions. Q. And what was the answer to that question, sir? A. I don't know of any answers that came out of that question. Q. Have you seen anything to indicate that CertainTeed did anything to answer this question? A. I just know what they did as a corporation. We worked with the various associations and we tried to get all the answers we could concerning the asbestos situation. Q. Yes, but this is your health -- this is your person in charge of health and safety, and Page 176 he's saying these are questions you need answered, right? A. He's saying the industry needs to be answering these. Q. And you are part the industry? A. Yes, sir. Q. So my question is, what did you do, CertainTeed, to answer Question Number 4 concerning whether different types of asbestos result in different types of cancer? A. The only way I can answer your question, sir, is that CertainTeed worked with the industry and they worked with various doctors that were working with the industry to make certain the information that was gathered was correct and valuable. Q. So what was the answer to that question? A. I don't know the answer to that question. Q. But you are the person here on behalf of CertainTeed that's supposed to know that, isn't that true, sir? A. Well, I'm here -- sir, I'm here to try to answer your questions to the best of my 44 (Pages 173 to 176) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 177 Page 179 1 ability. If you think there is somebody that can do 1 asbestos on lung cancer, and there were some 2 a better job than me -- 2 no-smoking policies that were implemented. 3 Q. No, sir. 3 Q. Yes, sir. 4 A. Wait, wait. Let me finish. 4 Was there ultimately a conclusion 5 -- then you should contact 5 drawn by CertainTeed that there was, in fact, a 6 CertainTeed and find out. 6 synergistic effect between smoking and asbestos 7 Q. No, sir. 7 exposure in relation to lung cancer? 8 A. Wait a second. 8 A. Yes, we believed there was. 9 I'm here -- I'm here to try to answer 9 Q. And that was something that you 10 your questions to the best of my ability. Whether 10 warned your employees about, true? 11 I'm the best that there is, I don't know, but the 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 litter is kind of small, and I don't know whether 12 Q. And that's something that you warned 13 you got the pick today, but you got what you got and 13 consumers about, true? 14 I'm just doing the best job I can. 14 A. Consumers? Not that I know of, in 15 Q. I appreciate that, sir, but I wasn't 15 particular, because -- I mean, it's somewhat of a 16 the one that selected you. 16 different situation, as I tried to explain to you 17 A. I know, but, if you have an issue 17 before. 18 with me or a problem with me -- well, wait. 18 Q. "The possible other causes of 19 Q. I have no problem with you, sir. 19 mesothelioma other than asbestos." 20 A. Okay, but if you -- 20 Did you see anything in your review 21 Q. I have no problem with you, sir. 21 of any materials or any of the records of 22 A. Oh, I think you do, sir. 22 CertainTeed to indicate that this question was ever 23 Q. No, I do not. 23 answered? 24 A. Let me just finish, please. 24 A. I've seen some people's opinion, and 25 Q. I do not. 25 I can't direct you to them, but I have seen people's Page 178 Page 180 1 A. Let me just finish. If you -- 1 opinion where they said that meso could be 2 Q. You can make whatever statements you 2 contracted from things other than asbestos. 3 want, sir. 3 Q. And was that the opinion of 4 A. Thank you. 4 CertainTeed, sir? 5 If you have a problem with me 5 A. CertainTeed -- they were of the 6 answering your questions, then I'd suggest you bring 6 opinion that meso would be contracted from asbestos, 7 it to CertainTeed's attention and maybe they can 7 and maybe there are other areas, but we were mainly 8 find somebody else. I'm doing the best job I can. 8 concerned about controlling our asbestos fiber. 9 Q. I appreciate that, sir. That's not 9 Q. Okay. 10 my issue. 10 Number 9 discusses the need for more 11 Sir, have you seen any information in 11 and better epidemiologic studies, including all 12 the files of CertainTeed to indicate that they ever 12 exposures over a wide range. 13 answered the question about whether there were 13 Do you see that? 14 different types of asbestos resulting in different 14 A. Yes. 15 types of cancer? 15 Q. Can you tell me what epidemiologic 16 A. I have not seen anything. 16 studies CertainTeed conducted to answer this 17 Q. Five, "The relationship of smoking 17 question? 18 and air pollution, et cetera, to asbestos dust and 18 A. There were quite a few 19 to cancer." 19 epidemiological studies being made back in the late 20 Do you see that? Have you seen 20 '60s and -- being made by various associations and, 21 anything in the files of CertainTeed to indicate 21 in fact, by various doctors, and I've seen some 22 whether CertainTeed ever answered this question? 22 reports on that, and CertainTeed attended some 23 A. There was some work done, and I don't 23 meetings on that. 24 know where I saw that work, but there was some work 24 MR. PLACITELLA: Do you want to make 25 done as far as the synergistic effect of smoking and 25 a switch? 45 (Pages 177 to 180) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 181 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at 1 2 2:01. 2 3 (Discussion is held off the record.) 3 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record 4 5 at 2:02. 5 6 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 6 7 Q. The next paragraph talks about what 7 8 CertainTeed can do to meet problems raised at the 8 9 conference in its plants, true? 9 10 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. And the first thing it says is, 11 12 "Enforce the respirator program even when the 12 13 exposures are intermittent and negligible," true? 13 14 A. And then he said, "and dust control 14 15 is not available." 15 16 So, yes, that was our policy. 16 17 Q. So, even where exposures were 17 18 negligible and dust control wasn't available, people 18 19 were to be given respirators, true? 19 20 A. If people were trying to say that, 20 21 no, you don't have to worry about it because it's 21 22 negligible here -- I mean, people in the plant knew 22 23 where you needed -- where you needed dust control 23 24 and where you didn't and for what reasons. And if, 24 25 for some reason, the dust control was not adequate 25 Page 182 1 or there was a failure or something, then the 1 2 respirator -- they'd have to wear a respirator until 2 3 it was corrected. 3 4 We tried to make sure our plants were 4 5 engineered so you would not have to wear a 5 6 respirator. 6 7 Q. Yes, sir, but your head of safety 7 8 says that, even where exposure is negligible, you 8 9 should wear a respirator, true? 9 10 A. That wasn't his policy, though. He 10 11 put out policy later on or at the same time, and the 11 12 policy didn't say that. It said just -- what I just 12 13 told you. 13 14 Q. So, CertainTeed did not follow the 14 15 recommendations of the safety director? 15 16 A. Well, certainly they did. The safety 16 17 director put the policy out. 17 18 Q. So, even though he told executives at 18 19 CertainTeed that respirators should be worn when 19 20 there was negligible exposure, that policy was never 20 21 implemented, true? 21 22 A. It says, "and dust control is not 22 23 available." 23 24 Q. Correct. 24 25 A. And that's the policy that was 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 183 implemented. Q. But not where there was negligible exposure, sir? A. I don't know what negligible exposure is, sir. Q. Your -A. I only can tell you we had a policy and what it was, and he put it out. Q. Sir, was it a policy that people should wear respirators even when exposure was negligible? A. What's -- I don't know the definition of negligible. Was that word used in the policy? No, that I'm aware of. If the -- if the exposure was greater than the standards, you had to wear a respirator until it was corrected. That was our policy. Q. Well, he doesn't say that here, does he, sir? A. Well, there is a policy. Q. Does he say that here, sir, when the exposures are greater than the standards, that's when you wear respirators? A. No. He's making a point that you Page 184 need to make certain that you have a respirator program, and we had one. Q. He actually says that your standards in your plant were no good, doesn't he? A. Where does he say that? Q. Doesn't he say that, sir? You've seen this document many times. A. What document? Q. This document. A. Where does it say -Q. How about Number 4. Use a lower limit, perhaps two and a half million particles per cubic foot, to an allowable concentration of asbestos in our plant. A. Yes, but where does he say we are no good? Q. Well, he's saying use a lower than that you are currently using, doesn't he? A. Well, does that mean we are no good? I mean, ACGIH would set the limits; not us. Q. Does he say here, sir, that the standard that you are using is not low enough and that you should use a lower standard? A. No, he didn't say that. He's saying, use a lower standard. That's what he's saying. 46 (Pages 181 to 184) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 185 1 Q. And that doesn't mean that the 2 current standard, in your mind, is too high? 3 A. Sir, I didn't set the standard. 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. Scientists and doctors set the 6 standard for the ACGIH, and he's raising a point 7 that we should try to get down to two and a half, 8 and he's right, we should, and we did. 9 Q. Okay. So, back to my question. 10 According to the safety director, the standard that 11 you were using at the time was too high? 12 A. No. He's not saying that. 13 Q. Okay. Let's move to the next 14 question. 15 A. No -- but, sir, you made a statement 16 earlier that he said our plants were no good, and I 17 don't read that anywhere in here. 18 Q. I didn't say your plants were no 19 good; I said the safety -- dust standard you were 20 using was no good. 21 A. Well, we can go back and -22 Q. I'm not going to debate it with you. 23 A. It is what it is. 24 Q. Yes, sir. 25 He also says that people who are just 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 186 1 doing clean-up work in the plant should be given 1 2 respirators, does he not? 2 3 A. Where is he saying that? In this 3 4 document? 4 5 Q. Yes, sir. 5 6 A. I'm sorry. 6 7 Q. When he talks about negligible 7 8 exposure, the next sentence, he says, "This would 8 9 include maintenance and clean-up men," true? That's 9 10 what he says? 10 11 A. Yes, and -- and maintenance men were 11 12 given respirators, depending on the job they had. 12 13 Q. And the clean-up men? 13 14 A. Well, what's clean-up? Clean-up is 14 15 maintenance people going into the bag houses and 15 16 cleaning up or going on -- when the machine went 16 17 down on Sunday, going in and cleaning out the 17 18 machine. 18 19 Q. And he said that you should do more 19 20 monitoring of the dust in the plant, did he not? 20 21 A. I'm sorry, I don't see that, sir. 21 22 Where did he say that exactly? Please help. 22 23 Q. Number 3, "More frequent monitoring 23 24 of dust." 24 25 Does he say that? 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 187 A. Yes, he did. Q. And he also says, "Make sure you educate the workers" -A. Right. Q. -- correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. A. And all these were implemented, sir. Q. Correct. They were all implemented for the benefit of your own employees, true? A. They were all implemented for the safety of the people working in the plants or people visiting the plants. Q. Who is Mr. Hutchcroft? A. I don't know who he is now, but he was working in the technical group. In fact, he was my supervisor at one time. Q. And who is Mr. Shaw? A. I think -- isn't that the same gentleman -- I don't believe I know -- is that Dr. Shaw. Q. Dr. Shaw -- they call him MD here, so I guess that is Dr. Shaw. A. I don't know who he is, sir. I'm sorry. Page 188 MR. PLACITELLA: Mark this, please. (Exhibit Ambler 10 is marked for identification.) BY MR. PLACITELLA: Q. You have, what, P-10 in front of you? A. Yes, I do. Q. This is a memo dated November 3rd, 1964, Re: Conference on biological effects of asbestos. You've seen this document before, correct, sir? A. Yes. I've seen it through depositions, yes, sir. Q. And this is Dr. Shaw's account of what happened when he attended the Selikoff conference on behalf of CertainTeed, true? A. Yes. Q. And what he relates to the executives back at CertainTeed is that he went to this conference along with Mr. Horowitz, true? I mean, with Mr. Horowitz? A. Yes. Q. Okay. A. And -- but he only -- I believe he only sent it to Clyde Hutchcroft. 47 (Pages 185 to 188) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 189 Page 191 1 Q. Okay. 1 A. Well, CertainTeed, as I mentioned to 2 It was also referenced -- this very 2 you earlier, sir, was doing everything possible to 3 report was also referenced in the last document we 3 have clean operations in our plants, and this letter 4 looked at. Do you remember the first line in the 4 didn't necessarily accelerate or decelerate any of 5 last document? 5 the efforts. The efforts were what they were. 6 A. Yes, sir, it is. 6 Q. Well -- but this part talks about 7 Q. Okay. 7 people at risk because they would have lived near 8 And he talks about that there was 8 your plant, true? 9 over 200 -- or some 200 medical authorities at the 9 A. Yes, but we -- we tried to make 10 conference, correct? 10 certain that we weren't getting exposure of any 11 A. Yes, he did. 11 asbestos outside of the plant. There was no 12 Q. And on Page 2 he talks about things 12 emission of asbestos outside of the plant. 13 he heard at the conference and that would require 13 Q. Are you certain about that, sir? 14 refutation by CertainTeed, correct? 14 A. Well, there were some areas that were 15 A. I'm sorry. Where -- could you direct 15 questionable, but the tests that I've seen and the 16 me where -- 16 results that I've seen says it was pretty clean. 17 Q. Sure. Third full paragraph. 17 Q. Sir, you are aware of tests where 18 "To cite but a few cases of the cases 18 there was asbestos found in the yards and homes of 19 and observations that were presented which are now 19 people who lived near the CertainTeed asbestos 20 in print and a matter of record and which require a 20 plants, are you not? 21 refutation in kind." 21 A. Well, I don't recall specifically 22 Do you see that? 22 yards, but there was some issues with fiber along 23 A. Yes. 23 one of the streets that the plant was -- had trucks 24 Q. What's "refutation in kind" mean, do 24 go up and down. 25 you know? 25 MR. EDELL: Is there a question? Page 190 Page 192 1 A. I have no idea what he meant there. 1 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 2 Q. It doesn't mean we should agree and 2 Q. Sir, the other thing that the doctor 3 do something; it means we have to fight it, doesn't 3 did as a result is he provided a collection of 4 it? 4 everything that was discussed at the conference -- 5 A. I don't know the answer to that 5 abstracts of everything that was discussed at the 6 question. I don't know what he meant by that. 6 conference to the executives at CertainTeed, did he 7 Q. And, again, he also talks about that 7 not? 8 he heard that animals who were in the vicinity of 8 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 9 mines had asbestos in their bodies, correct? 9 the question. Which doctor? 10 A. That's what he was -- that's what he 10 MR. PLACITELLA: This doctor. Dr. 11 got -- that's what he said was stated at this 11 Shaw. 12 conference, yes. 12 MR. EDELL: Okay, and abstracts 13 Q. And he talks about a case from Dr. 13 meaning -- 14 Newhouse in England about a five-year-old girl who 14 MR. PLACITELLA: Mr. Edell, is this 15 got mesothelioma from just living near an asbestos 15 an objection, question, what? 16 factory, doesn't he? 16 MR. EDELL: No, no. I don't see the 17 A. He -- he reports in this letter to 17 abstracts. 18 Mr. Hutchcroft that that's what was presented at 18 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, I'm assuming 19 this conference, yes. 19 this is a document you went over with him yesterday 20 Q. And that she had a playmate who also 20 that you didn't want to tell me about. 21 developed mesothelioma, true? 21 MR. EDELL: No. I have a copy of it. 22 A. That was reported at the conference, 22 I'm just looking for all the abstracts. 23 yes. 23 MR. PLACITELLA: Oh. 24 Q. Can you tell me what CertainTeed did 24 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 25 in response to this information? 25 Q. Can you answer my question, sir? 48 (Pages 189 to 192) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 193 1 A. What was the question? I'm sorry. 1 2 Q. This doctor provided to the 2 3 executives at CertainTeed a collection of all of the 3 4 abstracts of the papers delivered at the conference? 4 5 Every one? 5 6 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 6 7 the question. I have no idea what you mean. I 7 8 don't see any abstracts. 8 9 THE WITNESS: Dr. Shaw is telling Mr. 9 10 Hutchcroft that they have submitted a collection of 10 11 the abstracts of papers that were given at the 11 12 conference. 12 13 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 13 14 Q. Correct. 14 15 A. I mean, that's what it says. 15 16 Q. He says, "We have submitted a 16 17 collection of all of the abstracts delivered," does 17 18 he not? 18 19 A. That's what he's saying, yes. 19 20 Q. And then it goes on at the end of 20 21 that same paragraph and talks about even including 21 22 evidence about how the asbestos is ingested. So 22 23 it's inhalation and ingestion, correct? 23 24 A. Yes. Yes. 24 25 Q. And the conclusion of the doctor who 25 Page 194 1 attended this conference on behalf of CertainTeed 1 2 and reported back to the executives of CertainTeed 2 3 was that this kind of information needed to be 3 4 combatted by CertainTeed and the whole rest of the 4 5 industry, true? 5 6 A. What information? 6 7 Q. All of the publicity about the 7 8 dangers of asbestos attendant to the Selikoff 8 9 conference. 9 10 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 10 11 the question. 11 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. I mean, he -- I'm 12 13 sorry. 13 14 MR. EDELL: Hold on. 14 15 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 15 16 Q. Did Dr. Shaw recommend in this memo 16 17 that CertainTeed should conduct additional research 17 18 or did Dr. Shaw say that CertainTeed should come up 18 19 with a strategy for fighting what was disclosed in 19 20 this conference? 20 21 A. What his recommendation was, that the 21 22 overall industry has to combine forces and establish 22 23 a case history record file that will disprove such 23 24 claims, and I'm -- claims that maybe aren't valid. 24 25 Looking at the claims and finding out whether they 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 195 are valid or not. I mean, I've heard -- I've heard stories added to this young lady that died that the streets were -- they were almost blue with crocidolite fiber. Q. Why? Is crocidolite bad? A. Well, I don't know. I mean, if you are subjected to all kinds of fiber for some periods of time, there is a risk. Q. Sir, can you tell me what CertainTeed did in response to this memo to disprove the information that was related at the Selikoff conference? A. Again, sir, we continually worked on the safe operations of our plants, for both the inside and the outside of our plants. Q. Well, that's not my question, so let me do it again. It says that CertainTeed, as part of the industry, needs to take steps to either prove or disprove the facts -- the information that's been related at the Selikoff conference, true? A. It says the overall industry, yes. Q. That includes CertainTeed? A. That's part of CertainTeed, yes. Q. Have you seen anything in the files Page 196 of CertainTeed, in preparation for this deposition or any other deposition, that would indicate that CertainTeed took any steps itself to disprove the information that was provided to it or confirm the information that was provided to it in the Selikoff conference in 1964? A. There was a lot of work done on the ingestion issue in the latter part of the '60s, and I've seen a lot of information concerning that, and that was a major concern in the late '60s for asbestos-cement pipe, was the ingestion issue. Q. And what about the inhalation? A. In the field the inhalation was not a concern of the industry for the reasons that you keep telling me we'll go into later. Q. I'm not testifying. I'm just asking the questions. A. Well, I just answered you to the best of my ability. I'm sorry. Q. Can you tell me what CertainTeed did in response to either confirm or disprove the information related to mesothelioma and asbestos that was disclosed at the 1964 conference? A. I -Q. What CertainTeed itself did? 49 (Pages 193 to 196) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 197 Page 199 1 A. CertainTeed was a part of the 1 that's what we did. 2 industry. We worked in conjunction with the 2 Q. My question is, once you were told, 3 asbestos industry or the asbestos-cement pipe 3 and it was written up in those memos to the 4 industry. 4 executives at the company, that there were cases of 5 Q. So tell me what specifically you did 5 people getting mesothelioma from low doses, did you 6 within the asbestos-cement pipe industry -- 6 provide that information to your employees? 7 A. We -- 7 A. I don't think we specifically told 8 Q. -- to confirm or disprove that 8 them about individual cases. 9 exposure to asbestos at low levels could cause 9 What we told them, what we were 10 mesothelioma. 10 trying to do and what we were doing to eliminate or 11 A. Well, at the date of this letter 11 alleviate exposures in the plants. 12 nothing was done with the industry, because neither 12 Q. So the answer to my question is, you 13 association was in existence at this time of this 13 don't know whether you told the employees that low 14 letter. Both associations started the early part of 14 doses of asbestos exposure can cause mesothelioma? 15 the 1970s. 15 A. Yes. I think I just answered your 16 But, in the latter part of the '60s 16 question, sir. 17 there was a lot of work done on the ingestion issue, 17 Q. And what's the answer? 18 and CertainTeed was a part of that work, and that 18 A. Well, could we read my answer back? 19 was done by the four major domestic suppliers 19 Q. No. Answer this question. 20 meeting with lawyers and other people who evaluate 20 A. No. I -- 21 the effects or non-effects of the ingestion of 21 Q. Do you know, sir, as you sit here 22 asbestos fiber. 22 today, whether or not CertainTeed ever informed its 23 Q. And that was in conjunction with 23 employees that low doses of asbestos exposure could 24 possible exposure as a result of water passing 24 cause mesothelioma? 25 through asbestos-cement pipe, right? 25 A. Sir, as I mentioned -- I did answer Page 198 Page 200 1 A. Yes. 1 that, and I said specifically I don't know what we 2 Q. Okay. 2 said as far as these reports were concerned. I can 3 Putting that aside, can you tell me 3 tell you that we made certain that our employees 4 what steps CertainTeed took to inform itself as to 4 knew what we were doing in the plants. 5 whether the information about the inhalation of 5 Q. We are not connecting. Let me try it 6 asbestos fiber at low doses set forth at this 6 a different way. 7 conference, and it's relationship to mesothelioma -- 7 At any time did you ever inform the 8 what did it do to confirm or deny that information? 8 employees in your plant that low doses of asbestos 9 A. I don't know of anything specific 9 exposure could cause mesothelioma? 10 that CertainTeed did. We -- again, we worked very, 10 A. And, as I said, I don't know whether 11 very hard to make certain that we had plants that 11 we specifically did that or not. 12 were clean and within the applicable standards at 12 Q. Okay. 13 the time of operations. 13 A. Wait, wait. 14 Q. Did you tell your employees in the 14 What we told our plant people is what 15 plants that even exposure at low doses, that were 15 we were trying to do or what we were doing to 16 discussed at this conference, were capable of 16 alleviate their exposure or risk in the plant. 17 causing mesothelioma? 17 Q. Okay. That's all I needed to know. 18 A. Well, we didn't know that. 18 Now, CertainTeed attended meetings of 19 Q. You didn't? 19 various trade organizations that also discussed the 20 A. We didn't know that that's a fact. 20 association between asbestos and mesothelioma, true? 21 That's just what this -- somebody reported. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. So this is not something you related 22 Q. And that included an organization 23 to your employees? 23 known as NIMA? Do you know what NIMA is? 24 A. We -- sir, earlier this morning I 24 A. I know what it is, but I don't know 25 told you what we did at the safety meetings and 25 whether that was a topic of discussion at NIMA. I 50 (Pages 197 to 200) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 201 Page 203 1 wasn't a part of NIMA. I didn't attend NIMA 1 A. I don't know. I don't see the 2 meetings. 2 document. 3 Q. Do you know what the Industrial 3 MR. PLACITELLA: Mark this next. 4 Hygiene Foundation is? 4 (Exhibit Ambler 12 is marked for 5 A. Yes, I've heard of that, too. I 5 identification.) 6 believe we became a member of that later on, in the 6 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 7 late '60s. 7 Q. I'll give you my copy so I can ask 8 MR. PLACITELLA: Mark this next. 8 you questions on it. 9 (Exhibit Ambler 11 is marked for 9 Have you ever seen this document 10 identification.) 10 before, sir? 11 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 11 A. Yes, I have. 12 Q. Sir, you have in front of you P-11, 12 Q. In what context? 13 which are the minutes of the Occupational Health and 13 A. In context -- in connection with 14 Safety Committee of the National Insulation 14 depositions. Never when I was employed with the 15 Manufacturers Association, dated October 10, 1967. 15 company. 16 Do you see that? 16 Q. And, sir, again, this document talks 17 A. Yes. 17 about a meeting at the Industrial Hygiene Foundation 18 Q. Have you ever seen this document 18 in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, that Mr. Horowitz, as 19 before? 19 head of safety for CertainTeed, attended, correct? 20 A. I don't believe I have. 20 A. Yes. I'm assuming he attended it. 21 Q. This document indicates that the 21 I'm assuming he -- yes. Yes. 22 meeting was attended by Mr. Horowitz, again, 22 Q. Okay. 23 correct? 23 And you were working for the company 24 A. Correct. 24 at this point, weren't you? 25 Q. On behalf of CertainTeed, correct? 25 A. Yes, I was. Page 202 Page 204 1 A. Yes. 1 Q. He addresses this correspondence to 2 Q. And others at the meeting included 2 Mr. A.E. Alpine. Who was that? 3 representatives of Johns-Manville? 3 A. He was in charge of asbestos-cement 4 A. Yes. 4 pipe manufacturing in 1967. 5 Q. And Owens-Corning? 5 Q. And also copied here was a Mr. Davis. 6 A. Yes. 6 Who was Mr. Davis? 7 Q. And discussed at the meeting, sir, 7 A. Well, that's the same Mr. Davis we 8 was all the bad press that asbestos was getting in 8 talked about earlier. He was general manager of the 9 the State of New Jersey because of asbestos exposure 9 pipe division. 10 and mesothelioma, true? 10 Q. Was he a general manager -- was he 11 Second full paragraph. 11 technically your boss? 12 A. As it relates to insulation 12 A. No -- well, I was sort of very low on 13 materials. 13 the totem pole. 14 Q. And it also talks about Dr. Selikoff 14 Q. He was your boss's boss's boss? 15 again, correct? 15 A. Yes, that's about right. 16 A. Yes. 16 Q. So, this memo went to your boss's 17 Q. You were, as a member of NIMA, 17 boss's boss, pretty high up in the company at this 18 tracking the activities of Dr. Selikoff, correct? 18 point, correct? 19 A. You mean the company? 19 A. Well, my boss's -- yes, that was a 20 Q. Yes. 20 copy sent to him. It wasn't sent to him; a copy of 21 A. Yes. 21 it was sent to him, yes. It was copied to -- it was 22 Q. And just 20 days later, sir, your 22 directly sent to Bert Alpine. 23 company attended a meeting of the Industrial Hygiene 23 Q. Well, you have no doubt that he got 24 Foundation also discussing the relationship between 24 this, do you? 25 asbestos and mesothelioma, true? 25 A. Who, Mr. Davis? 51 (Pages 201 to 204) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 205 1 No, I don't have any doubt. 1 2 Q. And he talks about in his memo what 2 3 he learned, and one of the things he learned about 3 4 was bronchial carcinoma, correct? 4 5 A. That's what he reported that was 5 6 obviously stated at this meeting. 6 7 Q. And he also talks about mesothelioma, 7 8 correct? 8 9 A. Do you have another copy of it? 9 10 Q. I'm sorry. I don't. 10 11 Right underneath there where he 11 12 talks -- do you see where it says, underscored, 12 13 "mesothelioma, a rare tumor affects the cells' 13 14 lining"? 14 15 Do you see that? 15 16 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. And then he goes on to talk about 17 18 historical information, correct? 18 19 A. Yes, historical information. 19 20 Q. Right. 20 21 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. And he says that "before 1918 there 22 23 wasn't a lot of information on the health aspects of 23 24 asbestos, right? 24 25 A. That's what he's reporting, right. 25 Page 206 1 Q. And that, by -- and then he goes on 1 2 and he talks about 1960, a study done by a Dr. 2 3 Wagner in association -- 3 4 A. Where -- 4 5 Q. Page 2. 5 6 A. Oh, I'm sorry. 6 7 Q. -- associated with exposure to 7 8 crocidolite. 8 9 Do you see that? 9 10 A. Yes. Sorry. Yes. 10 11 Q. And that was one of the kinds of 11 12 asbestos that was in your asbestos-cement pipe, 12 13 true? 13 14 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. And it says -- when he talks about 15 16 people who got mesothelioma, it says, "many were not 16 17 even industrially exposed. Although they lived in 17 18 the mining area, some only for a short time and some 18 19 only as children." 19 20 Do you see that? 20 21 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. Can you tell me whether that 22 23 information was ever made known to you in 1967 by 23 24 your boss's boss's boss or anybody under him? 24 25 A. I never got a copy of this letter, 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 207 but I -- I do know what CertainTeed knew about mesothelioma in 1967. Q. Were they aware of this information? I guess they were. A. Well, they had -- they got this information, but, if you read further on, it says there were only 500 cases reported in the world up to this time. Q. 500 deaths is a lot of deaths, isn't it? A. Well, in the world? I don't know the answer to that. Q. Well, that would be the equivalent of, say, two planes coming down and crashing. A. It's not quite the same comparison. Q. It's not, sir? A. I don't think so. Q. So, 500 people is not a lot of people? A. I didn't say that. Q. Okay. A. I'm saying it says 500 people, and it was reported that, even though there were only 500 cases -- that's not me. I'm reading what's in this letter. Page 208 Q. I'm not arguing with you, sir. A. Thank you. Q. So, it was known that 500 people were dead or dying from mesothelioma at the time this letter was written? A. That's what the letter says. Q. And that's what CertainTeed knew, true? A. They knew what was reported at this meeting. (Discussion is held off the record.) BY MR. PLACITELLA: Q. Now, CertainTeed was aware that people in the field were cutting and sawing asbestos-cement pipe, true? A. Yes. Q. And the cutting and sawing of asbestos-cement pipe would liberate asbestos fiber, true? A. In various -- MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of the question. Do you have any time frame at all? BY MR. PLACITELLA: Q. You can answer it, sir. Cutting and sawing asbestos pipe 52 (Pages 205 to 208) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 209 Page 211 1 covering liberates asbestos fiber, true? 1 A. We -- well, we had installation 2 MS. GEISE: Pipe covering? 2 guides, and it was our belief that, if you follow 3 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 3 those installation guides, you would be installing a 4 Q. I'm sorry. Let me rephrase it. 4 safe product and, as the tests proved out later, we 5 Cutting and sawing of asbestos-cement 5 were right. Excuse me. A product within the 6 pipe liberates asbestos fiber into the air, true? 6 standards. 7 A. In various quantities, yes. 7 Q. Sir, did you recognize, at 8 Q. And stacking asbestos-cement products 8 CertainTeed, as a principle, that the company should 9 can cause exposure to asbestos, true? 9 warn consumers about the dangers associated with the 10 A. Stacking in what respect and where? 10 use of its products? 11 Q. Just stacking one thing on top of the 11 A. I think that -- I've answered this 12 other and the mere abrasive effect of moving one off 12 question many times. I believe that a company -- 13 the other can create exposure, true? 13 any company has a responsibility to make certain 14 A. I don't believe it creates, if any, a 14 that they have procedures out to the customer as to 15 great exposure, because the asbestos is encapsulated 15 how to install the product in accordance with any 16 in the wall of the pipe and, if there is any 16 specification or any requirements by any agency. 17 movement, you are really moving cement against 17 Q. And that is a responsibility that was 18 cement. 18 in effect in 1962 when you took over the manufacture 19 Q. Sir, have you ever seen dust created 19 and sale of the pipe, true? 20 when one piece of pipe is pulled off another piece 20 A. Well, I mean, that was CertainTeed's 21 of pipe? 21 philosophy as far as I ever knew. 22 A. No, I haven't. 22 Q. And would you agree that at 23 Q. Has that ever been reported to you? 23 CertainTeed you recognized the principle that a 24 A. Not that I'm -- 24 company should test its products to determine if 25 Q. Have you ever read any documents to 25 they are dangerous before you sell them? Page 210 Page 212 1 that effect? 1 A. Well, if -- if you felt that the way 2 A. Not that I can recall. 2 you were recommending the product to be installed, 3 Q. There came a time -- you've been 3 that it wouldn't be in accordance with the 4 asked a series of questions many times in a 4 standards, then I think you had a responsibility as 5 deposition, so I'm going to try to short-cut it. 5 a corporation to make certain that you tested it to 6 Were there historically basic 6 be sure that you were selling a product that was 7 principles of consumer protection followed in the 7 safe or could be installed in accordance with your 8 asbestos-cement pipe industry? 8 installation instructions that would be within the 9 A. I'm sorry. I don't understand the 9 applicable standards. 10 question. 10 Q. That, of course, presupposes, sir, 11 Q. Well, were there basic principles 11 that you actually gave instructions, true? 12 that you followed, in terms of health and safety in 12 A. Well, we have installation 13 relation to consumers, when you manufactured and 13 instructions. We always had them. Ever since I 14 sold asbestos-cement pipe? 14 came to work for the company. 15 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 15 Q. From 1962 forward, sir? 16 the question. I have no idea what you mean, but if 16 A. You know, I have not seen anything 17 you -- 17 from '62, but I've seen them -- I saw one dated '64, 18 THE WITNESS: No. I'm sorry. I'm 18 so I believe we had it in '62. 19 having a problem understanding the question. 19 Q. You saw an installation instruction 20 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 20 from 1964, sir? 21 Q. Were there certain ethical business 21 A. I believe it was '64 or '65. In that 22 practices that you conformed with, in terms of 22 area. 23 selling asbestos-cement pipe, in terms of warning 23 Q. And what did that installation 24 consumers of the potential dangers associated with 24 instruction say, sir? Because that would be 25 that pipe? 25 contrary to the Answers to Interrogatories I have in 53 (Pages 209 to 212) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 213 1 this case. 1 2 A. Well, I mean, it was our normal 2 3 installation instructions. 3 4 Q. Which were what? 4 5 A. How to -- how to receive the pipe, 5 6 how to unload it, how to assemble it, and how to 6 7 back -- how to test it. 7 8 Q. How about how to use it safely? When 8 9 did you first have an instruction about how to use 9 10 the product safely so as to avoid exposure to 10 11 asbestos? 11 12 A. What do you mean by "safely"? I 12 13 mean, these installation instructions were within 13 14 the applicable standards at the time, so it was our 14 15 understanding, if you did that, you were selling a 15 16 product that could be installed safely. 16 17 Q. And when did you do that, sir? 17 18 A. I say I saw an installation 18 19 instruction that was back -- I believe it was '64. 19 20 Q. And -- 20 21 A. I could stand corrected on that, but 21 22 it was prior to '67. 22 23 Q. So you have an installation 23 24 instruction that told people who were installing 24 25 your product how to protect themselves from exposure 25 Page 214 1 to asbestos prior to 1967? Is that what you are 1 2 saying? 2 3 A. No. I'm saying that we had an 3 4 installation instruction on how to install our 4 5 product that you could install that would be within 5 6 the applicable standards. That's what I'm saying. 6 7 Q. Give me the '67 document. 7 8 Sir, you'll agree that a company 8 9 should always tell the truth about the risks and 9 10 benefits of it products, true? 10 11 A. I believe a company has to be very 11 12 honest with its customers, yes. 12 13 Q. And you would agree, the greater the 13 14 danger the greater the warning required with the 14 15 product, true? 15 16 A. I believe -- 16 17 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 17 18 the question. 18 19 THE WITNESS: I believe a company 19 20 needs to be certain that their customers know how to 20 21 work with the product that's within the applicable 21 22 standards. 22 23 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 23 24 Q. Sir, have you ever testified that "I 24 25 would agree that we have an obligation to inform 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 215 workers how to install and use the product safely"? Have you ever testified to that? A. Well, I just -- just 30 seconds ago. Q. Do you agree with that statement, sir? A. Yes. Q. Now, we had marked before the 1967 -what we thought was the 1967 manual or brochure related to asbestos-cement pipe for venting. Do you remember that? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is there anything in this that talks about how to protect yourself from exposure to asbestos? A. It -- no. It tells -- it tells the installer how to cut the pipe, which would be within the applicable standards. Q. Where does it say "applicable standards"? A. Well, I mean, it doesn't say within the applicable standards, but we wouldn't put anything out that wasn't within the applicable standards. Q. Well, what is the installer supposed to know by reading this about applicable standards? Page 216 A. If you use this -- if you use this way of installing the product, you are installing it -- you are installing it within the standards. Q. Sir, is there anything in this brochure that talks about the dangers of asbestos? A. No. Q. When is the first time that you put anything in material for the customer concerning the dangers of asbestos? A. The first thing I remember reading was in 1974. We had -- we had something in our installation guide in '74. Q. Well, you didn't have it for all products, right? You only had it for sewer pipe? A. That's correct. Q. Okay. Anybody else who would have used it for any other purpose wouldn't have gotten this, true? A. In '74, that's correct, yes. Q. Okay. Now -A. Well, wait. I'd have to look at -excuse me. I might be wrong on that. I'd have to look at an installation guide that was around that period, because that standard -- that standard 54 (Pages 213 to 216) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 217 Page 219 1 warranty -- excuse me -- that standard OSHA 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at 2 statement was in our pressure pipe installation 2 2:53. 3 guide, too. It was imprinted right on the front 3 (Discussion is held off the record.) 4 page. 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record 5 Q. I'm going to go through all that. 5 at 3:06 p.m. 6 Sir, before you ever put a word about 6 MR. PLACITELLA: Mark this next. 7 the dangers of asbestos in any material that might 7 (Exhibit Ambler 13 is marked for 8 remotely reach the consumer, you rejected that 8 identification.) 9 warn -- doing so on multiple occasions, true? 9 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 10 A. No, that's not true. 10 Q. Before we broke I asked you questions 11 Q. Not true? 11 about whether, during the 1960s, shortly after you 12 A. No. 12 started to work for CertainTeed, CertainTeed, along 13 Q. Sir, am I correct that CertainTeed 13 with other members of the asbestos-cement pipe 14 met with members of the asbestos-cement industry on 14 industry, had considered warning consumers or 15 multiple occasions in the 1960s after receiving 15 contractors about health hazards associated with the 16 information on asbestos and mesothelioma, discussed 16 use of asbestos-cement products, and your answer was 17 whether people should be warned, and rejected that 17 what? 18 notion? 18 A. In what -- what are you -- in what 19 A. The only thing I know of, sir, there 19 respect did the -- did the industry try? 20 was an Asbestos-Cement Products Association meeting 20 Q. Did you, as a member of the 21 that we were not members of, but we had an attendee 21 asbestos-cement products industry, have discussions 22 at the association, and he voted on some change to 22 in the 1960s about whether people who were exposed 23 one paragraph. That's the only thing I'm aware of. 23 to asbestos as a result of using asbestos-cement 24 But I don't think in any way that said we didn't 24 products should be warned about the dangers 25 want to warn people of things. 25 associated with that exposure? Page 218 Page 220 1 Q. How long after you started was 1 A. Well, we -- we were not members of 2 CertainTeed involved in discussions with other 2 the Asbestos-Cement Products Association, that we 3 members of the asbestos-cement pipe industry about 3 can find anywhere. 4 whether or not people using your products needed to 4 Q. Are you certain of that? 5 be warned? 5 A. We investigated all the files and we 6 A. I don't know -- I don't understand 6 talked to all the people that we can even talk to, 7 that question. The only people -- the only meetings 7 and we are pretty sure we weren't members. We 8 I know about in -- as far as the pipe -- as far as 8 attended meetings. 9 the pipe industry is concerned, happened to -- in 9 Q. You signed in as members, didn't you? 10 the '60s, happened to have been in connection with 10 A. I didn't go to any of the meetings. 11 the ingestion issue. 11 And then, secondly, I think your 12 Like I say, there was a meeting for 12 question was, was it a warning label -- was warning 13 Asbestos-Cement Products Association, but you say 13 labels discussed at the meetings? Was that your 14 pipe, and that's the only meeting I'm aware of. 14 question? 15 Q. Well, the Asbestos-Cement Products 15 Q. Was the need to warn people who were 16 Association included manufacturers of 16 using asbestos-cement products discussed at the 17 asbestos-cement pipe, true? 17 meetings? 18 A. There were members there from pipe, 18 A. There was a discussion on that, yes. 19 but it was more of a building products association, 19 Q. And the notion that the people should 20 but, as far as I know, we were not a member of that 20 be warned was rejected? 21 association. 21 A. Not that I'm aware of. 22 MR. PLACITELLA: Why don't we take 22 Q. This one is for you, Mr. Ambler, this 23 two minutes and see if we can fix this -- it's 23 one is for you, Marc. 24 annoying -- and we'll come back and pick up. 24 You have in front of you the 25 (Discussion is held off the record.) 25 minutes -- Ambler 13, the minutes of the meeting of 55 (Pages 217 to 220) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 221 Page 223 1 the Health and Safety Council of the Asbestos-Cement 1 discussed at this meeting, sir? 2 Products Association, dated November 14, 1968. 2 A. Where do you see that, sir? I mean, 3 Do you see that? 3 do you want me to read the whole thing? 4 A. Yes. 4 Q. Well, you've seen this before. Do 5 Q. And have you seen this document 5 you recall what it says? Do you want me to point 6 before? 6 out pieces to you? 7 A. Yes, I have, through depositions. 7 A. Yes, if you would, please. 8 Q. And the first paragraph says, "A 8 Q. Okay. The second page, third full 9 meeting of the members of the Health and Safety 9 paragraph. 10 Council of the Asbestos-Cement Products Association 10 Do you see that? 11 was held pursuant to notice at the board room of the 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 FlintCoat Corporation." 12 Q. And it talks about Mr. Mayne calling 13 Do you see that? 13 upon Mr. Scheckler of Johns-Manville. 14 A. FlintCoat Company, yes. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. It says, "The following persons were 15 Q. To report on the proposed pamphlet 16 present." 16 entitled, Recommended Health Safety Practices for 17 Do you see that? 17 Applying -- Handling and Applying Asbestos-Cement 18 A. Yes. 18 Products. 19 Q. And it -- and it lists CertainTeed 19 A. Yes. 20 Products Corp. as a member, true? 20 Q. Do you see that? Okay. 21 A. No. 21 And does that refresh your memory, 22 Q. It doesn't say, came from a meeting 22 sir, as to whether a health -- recommended health 23 of the members and these are the people that were 23 safety practice for asbestos-cement products was 24 members? 24 discussed at the meeting? 25 A. It says, "The following persons were 25 A. Well, I know that something was Page 222 Page 224 1 present." 1 discussed about asbestos-cement products at the 2 Q. And one of those persons was Mr. 2 meeting. 3 Alpine. 3 Q. And it also talks about how the -- 4 A. Sir, I don't know how to answer you. 4 that there was a draft of the booklet that was being 5 I mean, this is a question we've researched and 5 circulated, true? 6 researched, and we don't feel we were members of 6 A. Draft booklet, right. 7 this association. However, we had people who 7 Q. And that it was designed for 8 attended meetings. I don't know how else to answer 8 contractors and those who handle asbestos-cement 9 your question. 9 material, correct? 10 Q. You attended the meeting and the 10 A. Right. 11 minutes say you were a member, but you say you were 11 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. Mark this 12 not a member? 12 next. 13 A. No, it doesn't say we weren't a 13 (Exhibit Ambler 14 is marked for 14 member. 14 identification.) 15 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 15 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 16 the question. 16 Q. Sir, am I correct that members -- or 17 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. 17 executives at CertainTeed were involved in the 18 THE WITNESS: It does not say we were 18 review of this booklet? 19 a member. It says, a meeting of the members, but 19 A. Yes. 20 then it says, "The following persons were present." 20 Q. And I've provided you, as Exhibit 21 It doesn't say the people there had to be members. 21 Number 14 to this deposition, the draft booklet, 22 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 22 which is attached to a memo from Mr. Zimmerman. 23 Q. And it talks -- and what was 23 Do you see that? The third page? 24 discussed at this meeting? Was a booklet concerning 24 A. I'm sorry. Your question was? 25 safe practices using asbestos-cement product 25 Q. Look at the third page of the 56 (Pages 221 to 224) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 225 Page 227 1 document. 1 products. 2 A. Okay, I'm on the third page. 2 Q. It mentions in the booklet that 3 Q. This is the draft booklet entitled, 3 applies, as well, to asbestos-cement pipe, true? 4 "For Handling and Applying Asbestos-Cement." 4 A. It mentions asbestos-cement pipe -- 5 Do you see that? 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. No, I don't. 6 A. -- but the association was involved 7 Q. Right there. To the right. 7 with building products. 8 A. Oh, I'm sorry. Yes. 8 Q. Well, was Mr. Alpine there as a 9 Q. And it was prepared by the 9 representative of CertainTeed building products or 10 Asbestos-Cement Products Association? 10 as a representative of asbestos-cement pipe? 11 A. Yes. 11 A. He was there as a representative of 12 Q. And that's the booklet that's 12 CertainTeed Products Corporation. 13 referenced in the minutes of the meeting attended by 13 Q. But his job focused on 14 Mr. Alpine, correct? 14 asbestos-cement pipe, correct? 15 A. Yes. 15 A. His job was in the pipe division, 16 Q. And this booklet had to do with 16 yes. 17 asbestos-cement products including asbestos-cement 17 Q. Okay. 18 pipe, true? 18 And this draft that was discussed at 19 A. I'd have to see the booklet to see 19 the meeting attended by Mr. Alpine has various 20 what it said about pipe. There was some reference 20 provisions in it, true? 21 to pipe, as I understand it. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. If you look at the fifth page of the 22 Q. For instance, on Page 2 it talks 23 booklet -- 23 about the major points to keep in mind when handling 24 A. Right. 24 or applying materials containing asbestos. 25 Q. -- it says that -- one of the 25 Do you see that? Page 226 Page 228 1 products the booklet refers to is asbestos-cement 1 A. Yes. I'm sorry. 2 pipe -- 2 Q. Okay. 3 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 3 And the things to keep in mind says, 4 the question. 4 "Keep dust to a minimum," correct? 5 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. -- true? 6 Q. "Wear approved respirators when 7 MR. EDELL: It's a draft of the 7 exposed to dust, maintain good housekeeping at all 8 booklet. 8 times," correct? 9 MR. PLACITELLA: I understand. We 9 A. Yes. 10 agree it's the draft. 10 Q. On Page 3, in the introduction, it 11 MR. EDELL: Not the booklet. 11 indicates that "Respirators should be worn when 12 MR. PLACITELLA: We agree it's the 12 dusts are generated as a result of sawing, drilling 13 draft. 13 or other similar operation," true? 14 THE WITNESS: It says -- well, it 14 A. It does say that, yes. 15 refers to -- it mentions in the first paragraph 15 Q. And, under housekeeping on the next 16 asbestos-cement pipe, but it says that -- well, it 16 page it says, "A major source of dust is from loose 17 says quite a bit about it. 17 material, scrap, and other debris distributed 18 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 18 throughout the job area and disintegrated by 19 Q. Yes, but the only reason I'm showing 19 trampling on, running over, et cetera," correct? 20 that to you is this book pertains to asbestos-cement 20 A. That's what it says, but it doesn't 21 pipe in addition to other products, true? 21 say what job areas or what products they are talking 22 A. Yes -- 22 about. 23 Q. Okay. 23 Q. And then on the next page it says, 24 A. -- but it was more applicable to 24 under shipping, "Under normal conditions unit load 25 building products -- asbestos-cement building 25 handling and storage of asbestos-cement products, 57 (Pages 225 to 228) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 229 1 including roofing and siding shingles, flat and 1 2 corrugated sheets, asbestos-cement pipe, et cetera, 2 3 should present no problems, if the safety practices 3 4 and regulations are observed and enforced." 4 5 Do you see that? 5 6 A. It says that, yes. 6 7 Q. And then down in the third paragraph 7 8 it says, "If breakage of asbestos-cement products 8 9 occurs, broken pieces of material should be cleaned 9 10 up and disposed of to avoid disintegration by 10 11 trampling, running over, et cetera," correct? 11 12 A. It says that. 12 13 Q. The next page talks about 13 14 fabrication, and it says, in the second paragraph, 14 15 "Fabrication of asbestos-cement products involving 15 16 cutting, drilling, sawing should be done in a manner 16 17 that will minimize dust. The use of proper methods, 17 18 tools and equipment will contribute considerably 18 19 towards dust abatement," correct? 19 20 A. Correct. 20 21 Q. And then on the bottom, when it talks 21 22 about clean-up, it says that you should use vacuum 22 23 equipment, correct? And, if you can't use vacuum 23 24 equipment, wet down the material? 24 25 A. That's what it says. 25 Page 230 1 Q. So, in -2 A. That's what we evolved into, sir, in 3 our plants. 4 Q. In your plant? 5 A. In our plant. 6 Q. Was the information in this booklet 7 provided to purchasers or workers who used 8 asbestos-cement products in 1967? 9 A. No, for the simple reason we didn't 10 believe it was -- we had an issue with the way we 11 were recommending to install our products. 12 Q. But your brochures in 1967 showed 13 people cutting asbestos-cement pipe, true? 14 A. With manual -- with manual means, 15 yes. 16 Q. They showed people hammering 17 asbestos-cement pipe, true? 18 A. That brochure shows it. 19 Q. They show people chiselling 20 asbestos-cement pipe, true? 21 A. Well, isn't the hammer and the chisel 22 one operation there? I'd have to see it again. 23 Sir, I don't think that's two -24 there are two inter -- two different operations 25 there. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 231 Q. They show the stacking of asbestos-cement pipe, true? A. I'd have to see it. Can I see it, please? Stack -- shows one on top of another, yes. Q. Okay. So, if they are in the same year, the information that the Asbestos-Cement Products Association said should be provided was not provided -- A. Well, I don't understand -Q. -- in the same brochure in the same year, true? A. No. I don't understand that question at all. What was not provided? Q. You didn't tell people to wear respirators when they were cutting the product in 1967, did you? A. Because they didn't need to. Q. That's your conclusion, right, sir? A. That's the company's conclusion -Q. I understand that. A. -- and it proved out to be right when we tested in '77. Page 232 Q. That's why so many people died, right, sir? Now, that brochure was discussed again in 1969, a year later, true? A. It was discussed again. I don't know the exact date of it, but obviously you have it there. MR. PLACITELLA: Why don't you mark this the next -- I guess it's 15. (Exhibit Ambler 15 is marked for identification.) BY MR. PLACITELLA: Q. Now, in 1969 the head of the pipe division for CertainTeed was actually a member of the committee that was working on this booklet, true, that you say you were never a member of? MR. EDELL: He didn't say they weren't a member of this particular committee. He said he wasn't a member of the organization. MR. PLACITELLA: Oh, so you could be on the committee writing all the stuff, but you couldn't be a member? MR. EDELL: Perhaps that's true, but that's not what he said. BY MR. PLACITELLA: 58 (Pages 229 to 232) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 233 1 Q. Okay. 1 2 Sir, Mr. Alpine, who was head of the 2 3 pipe division, was on the committee charged with 3 4 reviewing this booklet, true? 4 5 MR. EDELL: Where does it say that? 5 6 MR. PLACITELLA: I'm asking him a 6 7 question. 7 8 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, sir. Your 8 9 question is, was Mr. Alpine at this meeting? 9 10 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 10 11 Q. No. 11 12 My question is, not only did he go to 12 13 the meeting; he was a member of the committee that 13 14 was charged in drafting and reviewing the proposed 14 15 booklet forewarning consumers related to 15 16 asbestos-cement pipe? 16 17 A. He was a part of putting that booklet 17 18 together, yes. 18 19 Q. And the booklet was discussed first 19 20 in 1968 and then brought back up at a meeting in 20 21 1969 because it was not approved for release in 21 22 1968, true? 22 23 A. Well, I mean, I don't know why it 23 24 was -- what actions -- I mean, it was November of 24 25 '68, and then it was brought up again in February of 25 Page 234 1 '69. Maybe some additional information had to be 1 2 determined. I don't remember that. 2 3 Q. Okay. 3 4 So, the first time it was brought up, 4 5 it was -- CertainTeed did not use the booklet to 5 6 warn anybody, true? 6 7 A. CertainTeed did not use the booklet. 7 8 Q. Okay. 8 9 Then a memo was generated, which I 9 10 gave you, dated March 3rd, 1969, attaching the 10 11 minutes of the meeting of the Health and Safety 11 12 Council. 12 13 Do you see that? 13 14 A. Dated February 18th? 14 15 Q. Correct. 15 16 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. And the people that got this at 17 18 CertainTeed include a Mr. McNabb. Who was he? 18 19 A. In '69 he was executive 19 20 vice-president of the corporation. 20 21 Q. And Mr. Davis. What was his job in 21 22 '69? 22 23 A. In '69 -- I don't see where he was a 23 24 part of this meeting. 24 25 Q. Says, "M.S. Davis, Jr., CertainTeed." 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 235 Look on the page before it, sir. A. Well, that was just a memorandum sent out. He's saying the people at the meeting -Q. No, no, no. We are not connecting. Turn to the first page. A. I'm connecting very well, I think. I think you are asking me about the February 18th meeting, are you not? Q. No, sir. First I'm asking, who got the minutes of the meeting? A. Oh. I didn't think that was your question. Q. Okay. That's my question. A. I'm sorry. Q. The people that got the minutes -- by the way, this meeting (sic) was sent out by the lawyers for the organization, true? A. That's correct, yes. Q. Okay. And you think the lawyers would send out minutes of meetings to non-members? A. Sir, I don't know the answer to that question. MR. EDELL: Lawyers never make Page 236 mistakes. THE WITNESS: I mean -- BY MR. PLACITELLA: Q. There wasn't a mistake here, sir. Whether -- one, two, three, four people from -three people from CertainTeed got this, didn't they? A. That's correct, yes, sir. Q. The executive vice-president of the company? A. Yes. Q. Mr. Davis. What was his job? A. As I mentioned earlier today, he's -he was president of the pipe division. Q. He was president of the whole pipe division. And then Mr. Alpine. A. He was in charge of -- he was in charge of asbestos-cement pipe manufacturing. Q. And then attached are the meeting minutes, correct? A. Yes. Q. And it says that the person who attended the Health and Safety Council meeting on behalf of CertainTeed was Mr. McNabb. Who was Mr. McNabb in 1969? A. He was executive vice-president of 59 (Pages 233 to 236) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 237 1 the corporation. 2 Q. So -- of the whole corporation? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Well, how many people in the 5 corporation in 1969? 6 A. I don't know. 7 Q. A thousand? 8 A. I have no idea. 9 Q. Tens of thousands? 10 A. I have no idea. 11 Q. How many countries did you operate 12 in? 13 A. CertainTeed Corporation? 14 Q. Yes. In 1969. 15 A. Well, primarily just the United 16 States. I mean, we did export products once in a 17 while, but primarily in the United States. 18 Q. So, the executive vice-president of 19 the entire corporation thought it was important 20 enough to attend this meeting that you weren't a 21 member of -- 22 A. Sir -23 Q. -- in 1969, true? 24 A. -- I'm -- I'm telling you -- you are 25 implying that I'm sort of leading you astray. I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 238 1 don't know if we were a member or not -- 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. -- but, please, sir, please feel free 4 to go down and check all the files you would like. 5 Q. That's not my job, sir. 6 A. Well, I'm trying to answer -- I mean, 7 four times now you've implied I'm not telling you 8 the facts. 9 Q. You are the one that said you weren't 10 a member. I'm just asking the question. 11 A. Well, yes. 12 Q. Other people who were there were 13 representatives were Philip Carey, sir? 14 A. That's what it says, yes. 15 Q. FlintCoat Company, sir? 16 A. That's what it says. 17 Q. GAF? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Johns-Manville? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. The Quebec Asbestos Mining 22 Association? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. The lawyers? 25 A. Yes. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 239 Q. And a medical advisor, correct? A. Dr. Wright, yes. MR. EDELL: Do you want to really work this out and get the real answer? MR. PLACITELLA: I want answers -- I want my questions answered. Is there an objection? Mr. EDELL: It's not that complicated. MR. PLACITELLA: Is there an objection? Then please don't interrupt. MR. EdELL: It's a waste of time, but go ahead. MR. PLACITELLA: I'm not wasting time. MR. EDELL: You are, Chris. BY MR. PLACITELLA: Q. Discussed at the meeting was the recommended code of practices again, correct? Second full paragraph, Page 2. A. Well, Mr. Mayne is saying that he spoke briefly on the background of the concern of the asbestos industry with health and safety practices. Q. And down on the fourth paragraph Mr. Page 240 Scheckler again says, "No progress was made on the manual since the last meeting," right? A. That's correct, yes. Q. And on the next page it says that there were only four members of the subcommittee involved in drafting the pamphlet, true? A. Yes. Q. And one of them -- the four members -- is the head of the pipe division for CertainTeed, Mr. Alpine, true? A. No. Q. Mr. A.E. Alpine is not one of the members? A. No, that's not what your question was. You asked me if he was head of the pipe division. He was never head of the -- Q. Head of pipe manufacturing? A. Yes. Q. Sorry. Yes. Head of pipe manufacturing. Thank you. A. Yes. Q. And one of the main purposes for discussing this booklet was to limit your liability should you get sued, true? 60 (Pages 237 to 240) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 241 1 A. Mr. Carey said that was one of the 1 2 purposes of issuing the booklet, yes. 2 3 Q. Was the booklet released to warn 3 4 consumers in 1969? 4 5 A. We did not release this booklet, as 5 6 far as I know. I don't know if anybody did. 6 7 Q. On more than one occasion it was 7 8 discussed that one of the reasons you should publish 8 9 the booklet and use it was to protect yourself from 9 10 lawsuits, true? 10 11 A. That was what -- 11 12 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 12 13 the question. 13 14 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 14 15 Q. You can answer it. 15 16 A. That's what Mr. Sirney (sic) -- no, 16 17 wait. I'm sorry. Strike that. 17 18 Yes, Mr. Sirney stated that one 18 19 purpose was for the limitation of liability. It 19 20 says, "The limitation of liability of the 20 21 manufacturers." 21 22 Q. What was the date of that document, 22 23 sir? 23 24 A. March 8th -- excuse me -- 24 25 February 18th. 25 Page 242 1 Q. 1969? 1 2 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. And, in December of 1969, the 3 4 publication of the booklet was rejected again by 4 5 CertainTeed and the other members of the 5 6 Asbestos-Cement Products Association, true? 6 7 A. I don't know. If it says that, then 7 8 it's true. 8 9 MR. PLACITELLA: Mark this next. 9 10 (Exhibit Ambler 16 is marked for 10 11 identification.) 11 12 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 12 13 Q. You have in front of you P-16, which 13 14 is a December 10, 1969 letter with attached minutes 14 15 of the First Annual Meeting of the Health and Safety 15 16 Council ACPA, dated November 21, 1969. 16 17 Do you see that? 17 18 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. And the person who attended this 19 20 meeting on behalf of CertainTeed was a Mr. Monoky, 20 21 M-o-n-o-k-y. Who was he? 21 22 A. Monoky. 22 23 Q. Monoky. 23 24 A. He was -- he was involved in health 24 25 and safety. 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 243 Q. What was his position? A. I don't know exactly what Steve's position was. Q. Where did he work? A. In '69? Probably he was -- he was probably headquartered in either Broad Axe or -- in Pennsylvania, Broad Axe or Ardmore. Q. Did he work in relation to asbestos-cement pipe? A. Yes, he did. Q. So he was there to represent CertainTeed's interests as it relates to asbestos-cement pipe, would you agree? A. No, not necessarily. Obviously he did other things, too, so he may have been there just on asbestos. Q. Do you see anything in any research that you've done to indicate that he was there representing the interests of CertainTeed for anything other than asbestos-cement pipe? A. I haven't seen anything one way or the other, but this was a building products association, so I would certainly think that CertainTeed would want to hear what they are saying about asbestos in building products. Page 244 Q. So he would be reporting back both to people in asbestos-cement pipe and other building products? A. If he -- if he reported back. I don't know what Steve did with it. Q. Now, one of the things that was discussed at this meeting he attended was the issue of product liability, correct? A. Where is that, sir? Q. Page 2. A. It's Mr. Ball discussed product liability from Johns-Manville, yes. Q. Right. And he talked about the various classes of people who the members could expect to sue them for failing to warn about the dangers of asbestos, true? A. Where do you see that, sir? Q. Page 2, Page 3 -A. Well, I mean -Q. -- Page 4. A. Did he use the word "expect" or did he use the word "could"? Q. Well, let's go through it. Mr. Ball restricted his comments, he talked about asbestosis and put aside mesothelioma and cancer for a second. 61 (Pages 241 to 244) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 245 Page 247 1 Do you see that? 1 they were suing the members, true? Third full 2 A. Yes. 2 paragraph. 3 Q. Okay. 3 A. And your question was? I'm sorry. 4 And he talked about the classes of 4 Q. What he indicated was that one of the 5 people who may file a lawsuit. 5 things that people may be sued over is the failure 6 A. Who may, yes. 6 to warn about the dangers of asbestos and how to 7 Q. Correct? 7 work with the product safely, basically. Isn't that 8 A. Who may file, yes. 8 what he says? 9 Q. Okay. 9 A. He gets into some of that, yes. 10 And he says, "The first class of 10 Q. And then what he recommends to the 11 people are the people who work day-to-day with the 11 members on Page 5 is "Put a warning on the 12 products because of their handling, sawing, nailing 12 packaging. The warning should state that there may 13 and so forth." 13 be a health hazard and that proper precautionary 14 A. Correct. 14 procedures such as wearing respirators be followed." 15 Q. Correct? 15 Isn't that what he says? 16 A. Yes. 16 A. Yes, but they are talking about 17 Q. Because their exposure would be 17 building products there. 18 unavoidable, true? 18 Q. Where does it say that? 19 A. Where does he say it's -- 19 A. It doesn't say it, but they are. 20 Q. "Are exposed to asbestos fibers 20 Q. Well, sir, you were there -- where 21 unavoidably liberated into the atmosphere." 21 does it say they are only talking about building 22 Do you see that? 22 products? 23 A. Yes. I'm sorry. Yes. 23 A. It doesn't say that, sir, but their 24 Q. "Such exposure, if proper safety and 24 own company didn't put it on pipe. 25 housekeeping procedures are not followed, is a more 25 Q. Whose own company? Page 246 Page 248 1 or less continuing one." 1 A. Johns-Manville. 2 Do you see that? 2 Q. Well, shame on them. 3 A. Yes. 3 A. I'm just stating a fact, sir. 4 Q. And the next one is a second class of 4 Q. It doesn't say anything about this is 5 potential plaintiffs who are identified as being 5 limited to building products, does it, sir? 6 so-called neighborhood plaintiffs, correct? 6 A. No, but the association was primarily 7 A. Yes. 7 for building products. 8 Q. These are people who live near a 8 Q. But, sir, the only people who ever 9 plant or a mining facility that emit asbestos fibers 9 attended, other than the executive vice-president, 10 into the air, correct? 10 on behalf of CertainTeed, were involved in 11 A. Yes. 11 asbestos-cement pipe, true? 12 Q. And, of course, these are the same 12 A. No, I don't believe that's true, 13 class of people that Dr. Selikoffs conference 13 because I think Steve was involved in other things, 14 talked about in 1964 and were discussed at the IHF 14 also. 15 meeting in 1967, correct? 15 Q. But you don't know that for a fact? 16 A. I'd have to go back and read Dr. 16 A. No, I don't know if he was or he 17 Selikoff's -- but, I mean, there was -- in the other 17 wasn't. 18 report it was second class people. 18 Q. Okay. 19 Q. And then he said there is a third 19 And what he says was -- what he says, 20 class of people who might file suit, and those were 20 basically, is you should warn the consumer, correct? 21 people who may use the products from time to time, 21 A. If there is an issue, you should warn 22 but not on a regular basis, correct? 22 the consumer, yes. 23 A. Correct. 23 Q. And that you should also hand out the 24 Q. And on Page 4 he talks about the 24 pamphlet? 25 theory that he would expect plaintiffs would use if 25 A. He's saying -- where does he say 62 (Pages 245 to 248) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 249 1 that? I'm sorry. 1 2 Q. The next paragraph. "Mr. Ball 2 3 stated." 3 4 A. That's what he's saying, yes. 4 5 Q. The next paragraph talks about a 5 6 presentation of Dr. Davis at the exact same time in 6 7 the meeting, correct? 7 8 A. Where does -- 8 9 Q. Page 6, sir. 9 10 A. Oh, Page 6. 10 11 Yes. What they are saying is what 11 12 this doctor presented at the meeting, correct. 12 13 Q. And the doctor, again, talked about 13 14 asbestos exposure and mesothelioma, correct? 14 15 A. He did mention mesothelioma, yes. 15 16 Q. And after this meeting, sir, in 1969, 16 17 did CertainTeed put a warning on its asbestos-cement 17 18 pipe? 18 19 A. No, they did not, for the reasons 19 20 that I've told you. 20 21 Q. After this meeting, sir, did 21 22 CertainTeed hand out a pamphlet telling people how 22 23 to protect themselves from exposure to asbestos when 23 24 working with asbestos-cement pipe? 24 25 A. We had our installation instructions, 25 Page 250 1 which would keep people from being exposed to 1 2 asbestos that was not in accordance with the 2 3 applicable standards. 3 4 Q. Show me that, sir. 4 5 A. Well, I mean, we have our 5 6 installation instructions. 6 7 Q. Where is that, sir? 7 8 A. Where are they? 8 9 Q. Can you produce that tomorrow at the 9 10 deposition, sir? 10 11 A. I can't produce it tomorrow. 11 12 Q. Can you ask your lawyers to show it 12 13 to me, because I don't think it exists? 13 14 A. You don't think what exists? 14 15 Q. I don't think there is installation 15 16 instructions in 1969 that instruct people on how to 16 17 protect themselves from exposure to asbestos. 17 18 A. Whoa, whoa. No, I didn't say that, 18 19 sir. What I said was, the installation instructions 19 20 were such that, if you used them, you would not be 20 21 exposed to asbestos that was not in accordance with 21 22 the applicable standards and, when testing was done 22 23 in 1977, that proved to be correct. 23 24 Q. Sir, you are saying that you had an 24 25 installation instruction that was designed 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 251 specifically to protect people from exposure to asbestos in 1969? A. No, I'm not. I said we had an installation instruction for our product, for our pipe, that told people how to -- to receive, unload and install our product. Q. Right. A. That's what we had. Q. And none of those installation instructions mentioned the dangers of asbestos, true? A. Well, I don't know when the first OSHA warning was put on pressure pipe, but, as I mentioned earlier, it was put on the sewer pipe installation guide in '74. But, sir, as I told you, the way we recommended was within the OSHA standards. Q. Sir, OSHA was not in effect in 1969, was it? A. Well, we both know they weren't, but then it was in -- in accordance with the ACGIH standards. Q. Well, sir, you knew the ACGIH standards were inadequate to protect people, didn't you? Page 252 A. We went through that earlier today, and I'm not agreeing to that. Q. But in your plant you used a standard lower than the ACGIH standards to protect your workers, did you not? A. We always tried to -- we always tried to have standards lower than the applicable standards. Q. Sir, in 1969, after getting the advice from the attorney that people should be warned, did you warn anybody who was using asbestos-cement pipe that they needed to protect themselves from exposure to asbestos? MR. EDeLl: Objection to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: When it was determined that there was a way being used to install the product, we warned the people not to use that means. BY MR. PLACITELLA: Q. Sir, in 1969 did you warn people using asbestos-cement products to avoid exposure to asbestos? Did you warn them of that? A. No, for the reasons I've already stated. Q. Okay. 63 (Pages 249 to 252) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 253 Page 255 1 You had done no testing concerning 2 the installation of asbestos-cement pipe as of 1969, 1 same question. 2 A. That's fine. 3 true? 3 Q. So you refuse to answer my question? 4 A. No testing in the installation? Is 4 A. No, I don't refuse to answer your 5 that your question? 5 question. 6 Q. Yes, sir. 6 Q. My question is -- 7 A. We didn't do it because we -- it was 7 A. Sir -- 8 our belief that you -- that the way we were 8 Q. Can you answer my question, sir, yes 9 recommending to cut or machine the pipe was well 9 or no? Can you answer my question -- 10 within any standard, and that was based on our 10 A. No, I can't answer it yes or no. 11 experience with the product. 12 Q. Sir, how would you know that without 11 12 Q. Fine. Then I'll move on. A. Okay. 13 doing the tests? 13 Q. You refuse to answer my question yes 14 A. Well, as it proved out, we were right 14 or no? 15 because, when we did -- 15 A. No. No. I'll -- 16 Q. Sir -- 16 Q. Do you refuse to answer my question 17 A. Excuse me. 17 yes or no? 18 -- when we did test the product, it 18 MR. EDELL: Hold on. 19 was within the OSHA standards. The OSHA standards 19 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 20 in '76, by the way. 20 Q. Excuse me, sir. Do you refuse -- 21 Q. Sir, I'm not asking you about 1976 or 21 MR. EDELL: Let him say whatever he 22 1977. 22 wants to say and you'll respond. 23 I'm asking you, in 1969 had you done 24 any testing to determine what level of asbestos 23 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 24 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 25 fiber was released when you cut or fabricated 25 Q. Do you refuse to answer my question Page 254 Page 256 1 asbestos-cement pipe on the job? 1 yes or no? 2 A. I told you we did not, and I told you 2 MR. EDELL: He has not refused to 3 the reason for it is because it was our belief, 3 answer any of your questions. You are doing nothing 4 based on our experience with the product, that the 4 more than badgering him. 5 way we recommended to install the product would be 5 MR. PLACITELLA: I'm not badgering 6 within the applicable standards. 6 him. 7 Q. And what is the basis for that 7 MR. EDELL: If you've got another 8 statement, sir? 8 question, ask it. 9 A. I mean, we were experienced with the 9 MR. PLACITELLA: I've got plenty of 10 products. We -- there were some times in the 10 questions. 11 laboratory where we used the manual ways to cut pipe 11 MR. EDELL: Then go ahead. 12 for testing. I mean, we knew what was going on. We 12 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 13 just didn't fall off a turnip truck. I mean, we 13 Q. Sir, in 1970 was another draft of the 14 knew what was going on, and it proved out to be 14 brochure circulated within your corporation? 15 correct in '77 when the testing was done. 15 A. I don't know the answer to that. 16 Q. Sir, I'm not asking you about 1977. 16 MR. PLACITELLA: Next. 17 I'm asking you about 1969. 17 (Exhibit Ambler 17 is marked for 18 A. I -- 18 identification.) 19 Q. You did no tests, am I correct, to 19 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 20 determine whether asbestos was released in 1969 on 20 Q. You have in front of you Exhibit 21 the job cutting asbestos-cement pipe? 21 Number 17, which is the 1970 version of the 22 A. Sir, I've answered that question 22 recommended practices for fabricating and handling 23 three times now, and I'm going to continue to answer 23 asbestos-cement products. 24 it the same way. 24 Have you ever seen that before? 25 Q. And I'm going to continue to ask the 25 A. This is only part of the whole 64 (Pages 253 to 256) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 257 Page 259 1 practices. I believe I've seen the whole practices 1 Do you see that? 2 before. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And you've seen this before in prior 3 Q. And on the second ballot CertainTeed 4 depositions, have you not? 4 actually voted against the brochure? 5 A. Yes. I didn't see it while I was 5 A. What brochure? 6 with CertainTeed. Yes. 6 Q. The -- the asbestos-cement product 7 Q. And, again, this brochure indicates 7 brochure. 8 that care should be taken when exposed to asbestos 8 A. No. They didn't vote against it. 9 from asbestos-cement products on construction sites, 9 They voted against a proposed amendment to a certain 10 correct? Generally? 10 paragraph on Page 3. 11 A. Yes, generally. 11 Q. Right. 12 Q. And it talks about good housekeeping 12 And ultimately the brochure was voted 13 practices and use of vacuums and the like, and 13 on and unanimously passed, correct? 14 sawing, et cetera, correct? 14 A. I don't know -- 15 A. Yes. 15 Q. The next page. 16 Q. And right in the introduction it says 16 A. I'm sorry. 17 that any time that you saw a product and state or 17 Okay. 18 federal regulations are exceeded in terms of 18 Q. Yes, sir? 19 exposure limits, respirators should be worn, 19 A. That's correct. That's what it says. 20 correct? 20 Q. So Mr. Alpine actually voted for the 21 A. Where is that, sir? I'm sorry. 21 brochure? 22 Q. Page 3. 22 A. If that's what it says, yes, he must 23 A. Yes, it does say that. 23 have. 24 Q. In 1970 you actually were part of an 24 Q. And he was there on behalf of the 25 organizational meeting that approved distributing 25 asbestos-cement pipe part of CertainTeed, correct? Page 258 Page 260 1 this brochure, correct? 1 A. I believe he was there representing 2 A. I don't know that. 2 CertainTeed Products Corporation. 3 MR. PLACITELLA: Next. 3 Q. And you know that how? You spoke to 4 (Exhibit Ambler 18 is marked for 4 him? 5 identification.) 5 A. Excuse me? 6 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 6 Q. You spoke to him? 7 Q. You have in front of you as 7 A. Not about this issue, no, I did not. 8 Exhibit 18 the May 19, 1970 minutes of the seventh 8 Q. So this was approved in 1970 for 9 meeting of the Health and Safety Council, ACPA, 9 distribution, correct? 10 correct? 10 A. The booklet was, yes. 11 A. Yes. 11 Q. But it was never distributed by 12 Q. And Mr. Alpine was there on behalf of 12 CertainTeed, was it? 13 CertainTeed? 13 A. We didn't distribute it because we 14 A. Yes. 14 thought it was mainly applicable to building 15 Q. And at that point he was still the -- 15 products. 16 in charge of the plant for manufacturing 16 Q. So, even though you voted on it, and 17 asbestos-cement pipe? 17 even though other people in the industry used it, 18 A. Yes. All plants, yes. 18 you, CertainTeed, decided not to use it, true? 19 Q. All plants? 19 A. What other companies in the 20 A. For asbestos-cement pipe. 20 asbestos-cement pipe industry used it? 21 Q. He had nothing to do with any other 21 Q. Johns-Manville. 22 product other than asbestos-cement pipe, correct? 22 A. They didn't distribute it. 23 A. At this time that's correct. 23 Q. They didn't? 24 Q. And then on Page 3 it talks about 24 A. No, they didn't. 25 taking a vote on the brochure. 25 Q. National Gypsum? 65 (Pages 257 to 260) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 261 Page 263 1 A. Not for asbestos-cement pipe, they 1 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 2 didn't. 2 Q. What evidence can you point me to 3 Q. National Gypsum? 3 specifically, sir, that, as of 1970, you had to show 4 A. They weren't in the asbestos-cement 4 that the cutting of asbestos-cement pipe released 5 pipe business. 5 fiber within the applicable standards? 6 Q. Do you know who used it? 6 A. Nothing other than our belief at that 7 A. I don't think any asbestos-cement 7 time, which proved out to be right. 8 pipe producers distributed the booklet. 8 Q. Sir, you did not provide any warning 9 Q. Including yourself? 9 on pressure pipe -- with respect to pressure pipe 10 A. Including ourselves. 10 for almost ten years after it was first discussed 11 Q. So we now know, do we not, that there 11 within the Asbestos-Cement Product Association, 12 was discussion about warnings related to 12 true? 13 asbestos-cement pipe that CertainTeed was involved 13 A. We put a warning on our product in 14 in, including members, people who worked in the 14 1979, and it was voluntary -- we volunteered to put 15 cement pipe side of the business, for a period of 15 that on. 16 three years during the 1960s up to 1970, true? 16 Q. And, sir, that was 12 years after it 17 A. Is there a question? 17 was first discussed by members of CertainTeed 18 Q. Is that true? 18 executives at this association meeting, true? 19 A. Well, what? What's the question 19 A. It was -- there was a discussion 20 again? I'm sorry. 20 about putting warnings on products that -- if you 21 Q. We now know, sir, from reviewing 21 are going to be greater than the applicable 22 these documents and going though your testimony, 22 standards. 23 that the subject of warning people using 23 Q. And you took 12 years in order -- 24 asbestos-cement products was ongoing throughout the 24 A. Let me -- 25 late 1960s? 25 Q. You took 12 years -- Page 262 Page 264 1 A. The discussion of warnings? 1 A. Wait. I wasn't finished my answer. 2 Q. Correct. 2 Q. I'll withdraw the last question. 3 A. Yes, but there is one thing that you 3 Sir, you took 12 years from the time 4 showed me, sir, where it says, if it were above -- 4 warnings were first discussed before you put a 5 the release was above the standards, you were to put 5 warning on asbestos-cement pipe, true? 6 warnings on. And, again, we were of the belief that 6 A. Yes, but we had booklets which we put 7 what we recommended in our installation guide would 7 out prior to putting the warning on the product. 8 not be -- if you used those, you would not be above 8 Q. I'm going to get to that in a second. 9 the applicable standard. 9 It was almost 17 years from the time 10 Q. Sir, you had no evidence to support 10 you learned asbestos could cause cancer before you 11 that belief, did you? 11 put a warning on the asbestos-cement products, true? 12 A. We had our experience with the 12 A. We didn't put a warning on our pipe 13 product, our knowledge of the product and, when we 13 until 1979. We did it on our own and it is what it 14 did the testing in '77, it was proved to be right. 14 is. 15 Q. In 1970 you had no evidence that you 15 MR. PLACITELLA: We can take a break. 16 can point to that showed that cutting 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at 17 asbestos-cement pipe on the job would not release 17 4:05. 18 asbestos fiber, did you? 18 (Discussion is held off the record.) 19 A. No -- 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record 20 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 20 at 4:18 p.m. 21 the question. 21 (Exhibit Ambler 19 is marked for 22 THE WITNESS: -- I didn't say release 22 identification.) 23 asbestos fiber. It released asbestos fiber, but it 23 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 24 was -- released asbestos fiber well within the 24 Q. Between 1970, when the product 25 applicable standards. 25 brochure was approved, and 1974, did CertainTeed 66 (Pages 261 to 264) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 265 1 distribute any material to customers or consumers 1 2 mentioning the dangers associated with exposure to 2 3 asbestos? 3 4 A. No. I mean, I've already answered 4 5 that. 5 6 Q. Now, in 1974, am I correct that, for 6 7 sewer pipe, an installation guide was distributed by 7 8 CertainTeed Products Corporation? 8 9 A. There was one distributed in '74, 9 10 yes. 10 11 Q. I've put before you what I think is 11 12 Exhibit Number 19, which is an installation guide 12 13 for asbestos-cement fluid pipe -- Fluid-Tite 13 14 non-pressure sewer pipe. 14 15 Do you see that? 15 16 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. Have you seen this document before? 17 18 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. And down in the lower left-hand 19 20 corner it talks about a revision of March, 1974. 20 21 Do you see that? 21 22 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. Now, this particular brochure -- or 23 24 installation guide, I'm sorry, has a caution label 24 25 or a caution notice concerning asbestos fibers and 25 Page 266 1 asbestos-cement pipe, correct? 1 2 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. And am I correct this is the first 3 4 time that such a caution notice was supplied to 4 5 either a customer or anyone else involved in the 5 6 consumer side of the CertainTeed asbestos-cement 6 7 pipe? 7 8 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 8 9 the question. 9 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, for the reasons I 10 11 told you earlier. 11 12 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 12 13 Q. And the caution statement reads, 13 14 "Caution, asbestos-cement pipe contains asbestos 14 15 fibers. Do not cut or machine without protection. 15 16 Breathing asbestos dust may cause serious bodily 16 17 harm." 17 18 Do you see that? 18 19 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. Do you know what the decision process 20 21 was to decide to put this caution statement in this 21 22 manual? 22 23 A. As I understand it, this is the 23 24 standard OSHA caution label, and the decision was 24 25 made to put it in -- in this installation guide, and 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 267 like I say, it was put on our pressure pipe installation guide, but I just don't know the year. Q. And do you know why it was incorporated for sewer pipe and not pressure pipe? A. Well, it was eventually. I just don't know the year. It may have been essentially the same time period. I don't know why it was particularly put on this year and -- maybe this is the time that this booklet was revised, which it was. They say it was revised. Q. Who was involved in the decision to put this on this brochure? A. I don't know the answer to that. Q. Were you involved? A. No. Q. From your research, do you know who was involved? A. No, I do not. Q. In the standard Interrogatories answered by CertainTeed, in Middlesex County, in response to Interrogatory B20, it indicates that there were a number of individuals in the decision to place a warning on asbestos-cement pipe. They list a Mr. Ponce, Esquire. Do you know who he is? Page 268 A. Yes, he was the corporate attorney at the time. Q. Is he still alive? A. Yes, I believe he is. Q. Do you know where he's located? A. No. Just Philadelphia somewhere. Q. And did he have anything to do with this caution label? A. Which one? Q. The one on Ambler 19. A. I don't know if he did or not. Q. They also list you. A. That's correct. Q. What -- how were you involved in the decision of whether or not to place a warning on any asbestos-cement pipe sold by CertainTeed? A. We are talking about 1979 now. Q. Okay. So -A. And -Q. -- you had nothing to do with warnings prior to 1979? A. Well, this was a warning on the product itself, and I was very much involved because I was head of the asbestos-cement pipe division at that point. 67 (Pages 265 to 268) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 269 Page 271 1 Q. Was Mr. Ponce involved in the '79 1 work clothes home with asbestos on them, true? 2 decision? 2 A. As far as I know, that came out in 3 A. That's what we are talking about, the 3 the -- in the safety meetings, that you shouldn't go 4 '79. 4 home with asbestos on your clothes. 5 Q. All right. 5 Q. But in this manual there is nothing 6 A. I mean, I believe we are. 6 about not bringing asbestos home on your clothes? 7 Q. So we don't know, as we sit here 7 A. No, because there -- as I keep 8 today, who was involved in deciding to put this 8 saying, there are two different situations here. 9 statement in this installation guide? 9 Q. There is nothing in this manual that 10 A. I don't know. 10 you should not bring asbestos home on your clothing 11 Q. And is there any way to find that 11 to your family? 12 out? 12 A. No, because they are two different -- 13 A. Not that I'm aware of. 13 as compared to the plant, they are two different 14 Q. Now, this statement in the 14 situations. 15 installation guide, am I correct that, unlike the 15 Q. I'm not asking you now as compared to 16 guide approved by the Asbestos-Cement Products 16 the plant. I'm just asking, in this manual you do 17 Association, there is nothing in here about 17 not warn anybody not to bring asbestos home on their 18 respirators? 18 clothing to their family? 19 A. That's correct. 19 A. No, for the reasons that I stated. 20 Q. And there is nothing in here about 20 Q. Now, in 1977 you put out a safe 21 drilling or using a hammer or anything like that? 21 practices guide, correct? 22 A. No. But, I mean, for the reasons 22 A. Recommended work practices, yes. 23 I've stated, sir. 23 Q. Recommended work practices? 24 Q. There is nothing in here about 24 A. Yes. 25 cancer? 25 Q. And is that the first time that went Page 270 Page 272 1 A. No. It just -- well, it just says 1 out, recommended work practices, in 1977? 2 "bodily harm," is that correct? 2 A. As a -- as a pamphlet, yes. 3 Q. Right. There is nothing in here 3 Q. All right. 4 about mesothelioma? 4 And that was ten years after the 5 A. No, there is not. 5 discussion of putting a pamphlet out on safe 6 Q. There is nothing in here that would 6 practices occurred at the Asbestos-Cement Products 7 warn somebody not to bring asbestos dust home to 7 Association, true? 8 their families? 8 A. Well, yes, but it was put out for 9 A. It's not in there, no. 9 different reasons. A whole lot of different 10 Q. By the way, you had requirements in 10 reasons. 11 the plant, did you not, that would protect against 11 Q. It was put out ten years -- let me 12 people bringing asbestos dust home on their clothes 12 ask you this question. The safe practices -- that 13 to their family? 13 discussed the dangers of asbestos? 14 A. Requirements? I don't know of any 14 A. It -- the recommended work practices 15 requirements. 15 discussed the proper way to install asbestos-cement 16 Q. In other words, people were told that 16 pipe, which -- 17 they shouldn't go home with their clothes full of 17 Q. Do you know who was involved in 18 asbestos and bring it home to their family? 18 drafting -- 19 A. Well, yes, we didn't want anybody to 19 A. I don't think we finished that 20 have their clothes full of asbestos because we 20 answer, but that's fine, if you're happy with it. 21 wanted to be certain that our plants were such that 21 Q. At this point in the day I'm neither 22 all the asbestos would be going through the exhaust 22 happy nor unhappy. 23 systems. 23 In 1977 do you know who was involved 24 Q. But people in the plant knew and were 24 in the safe practices -- in constructing the safe 25 told specifically that they should not wear their 25 practices guide? 68 (Pages 269 to 272) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 273 Page 275 1 A. The recommended work practices? 1 weren't aware of any. 2 Q. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Did you ever hear of people cutting 3 A. Yes. It was -- that booklet was 3 asbestos-cement pipe with a carborundum blade? 4 talked about -- was put together by the 4 A. Yes, but I don't know what that 5 Asbestos-Cement Pipe Producers Association and it 5 means. 6 was approved by the various member companies. 6 Q. And that occurred in the 1960s, did 7 Q. And when was it -- when did the 7 it not? 8 member companies sit -- first sit down to draft that 8 A. I don't know the answer. I already 9 booklet? 9 told you about the gas-powered saws, sir, or what 10 A. Well, they -- the testing was done in 10 our understanding was. 11 March of '77 by EEH, and then as soon as the testing 11 Q. Were you aware, sir, that people were 12 came out, the abrasive disk -- power and abrasive 12 cutting asbestos-cement pipe with a carborundum 13 disk saw became a problem area, and information was 13 blade in the early 1970s? 14 sent out to the field and this booklet was 14 A. I already answered that question, 15 published, and it was published -- like I say, it 15 sir. I mean, when we became aware of it was in the 16 was published by employees of the association and 16 mid-'70s. 17 there were meetings to make certain that everybody 17 Q. I'm asking about a carborundum blade, 18 agreed to it. 18 not -- 19 Q. Well, how long did it take from the 19 A. Well, I don't know -- what do you 20 time you ran the tests until the time you got the 20 mean by a carborundum? 21 booklet out? 21 To me, it's not the blade, 22 A. Well, it has a date on there. I 22 necessarily, as much as the torque of the saw that 23 think it was -- it could be August. It was the same 23 you are using. 24 year. August, '77. I could be wrong on the month, 24 Q. Were you aware, sir, before the 25 but it's right there on the cover of the book. 25 mid-1970s, that people were using power saws to cut Page 274 Page 276 1 Q. This is actually my outline of -- 1 asbestos-cement pipe? 2 A. I'm sorry. The book you sent out. 2 A. Gas-powered saws? 3 I'm sorry. 3 Q. Any power saws. 4 Q. So, was it just a matter of months 4 A. Well, you know, some people were 5 from the time you ran the tests till the time you 5 using electric -- hand-held electric saws, and they 6 got the booklet out? 6 were within the applicable standards, but the 7 A. Yes. I think it was August. 7 high-powered saws with the high rpms, that was the 8 Q. So, when you wanted to get the 8 major concern and, like I say, it became our -- 9 booklet out, you could do it pretty quickly? 9 Q. Sir, I need to know -- I'm sorry. I 10 A. When there was a need to put it out, 10 cut you off. 11 we could do it very quickly, yes. 11 A. -- became our understanding in the 12 Q. Well, sir, people were using abrasive 12 mid-'70s. '75, '76. 13 saws in the field before 1977, weren't they? 13 MR. EDELL: Let him finish, Chris. 14 A. It became our understanding that they 14 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 15 were starting to be used prevalently in the 15 Q. Trying to move to the finish. 16 mid-'70s. 16 How do you know that the cutting of 17 Q. Sir, my question is, before 1977 17 asbestos-cement pipe with power saws were within the 18 people were using abrasive saws in the field? 18 applicable limits? How do you know that? 19 A. And my answer is that it became -- 19 A. Well, as I said, the hand-held 20 came to your understanding it was starting to be 20 portable electric saws, because they weren't 21 used in the mid-1970s, like '75 or '6. 21 developing any torque -- and we did test electric 22 Q. So you don't know whether abrasive 22 lathing machines in '77, and they became -- the 23 saws were used to cut asbestos-cement pipe before 23 results were well within the OSHA standards. 24 1975? 24 Q. Did you ever test these hand-held 25 A. Gas-powered saws, at that time we 25 saws that were being used -- power saws that were 69 (Pages 273 to 276) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 277 Page 279 1 being used to cut asbestos-cement pipe? 1 A. We expected him to be trained by his 2 A. The only electric power saw that we 2 supervisor on the use of this brochure. 3 tested in '77 was the -- was the power lathe. 3 Q. All right. 4 MR. PLACITELLA: Is this 20? 4 So, just so we are clear, this 5 (Exhibit Ambler 20 is marked for 5 brochure was not intended to be read and followed by 6 identification.) 6 the laborer himself or herself? 7 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 7 A. No, I can't answer that -- that's two 8 Q. You have in front of you Exhibit 8 questions. It was intended that the laborer would 9 Number 20, Recommended Work Practices For 9 follow these instructions. Whether he read them or 10 Asbestos-Cement Pipe. 10 not, I can't -- I'm sure there were some laborers 11 Do you see that? 11 who did and some that didn't, but we -- it was 12 A. Yes, sir. 12 our -- it was our focus to be certain that the 13 Q. Is this a brochure that you put out 13 supervisor who was doing the job would know about 14 as part of the Asbestos-Cement Pipe Producers 14 this and then train his people how to use the 15 Association in '77? 15 product. 16 A. That's correct, yes. 16 Q. That's not my -- I just want to get 17 Q. And this booklet was intended for 17 on the same page with you. 18 whom? 18 When you issued this brochure, was it 19 A. Well, it was intended for our 19 your intention that it was going to be used by the 20 customer base, which would be our distributors and 20 laborers or was it that you were just giving it to 21 also the contractors who were installing the 21 the supervisors? 22 products and -- excuse me, and engineers and 22 A. No. It was -- it was our intention 23 municipal officials. 23 that these practices would be used by the laborer -- 24 Q. So it was not necessarily for the 24 Q. So -- 25 laborer in the field, am I correct? 25 A. -- the person installing the product. Page 278 Page 280 1 A. Well, it was for the contractors, and 1 Q. So the laborer -- they are supposed 2 this was a part of our shipments for quite a period 2 to understand things like eight-hour time-weighted 3 of time, so -- 3 average, two fibers longer than five micrometers per 4 Q. I'm going to get to that. 4 centimeter? When they read this, that's supposed to 5 A. Well -- 5 mean something to them? 6 Q. I'm just asking a question. Was this 6 A. No, but if you go -- it tells you 7 intended for the guy who was a laborer in the field 7 what's approved and what's not approved. 8 cutting the asbestos-cement pipe? 8 Q. Well, I'm just trying to understand 9 (Discussion is held off the record.) 9 what the intent of this brochure was, sir. You said 10 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 10 it was for the laborers. 11 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 11 I'm looking where it talks about 12 Q. Was this intended for use by the 12 standards, and you are talking about two fibers 13 laborer in the field cutting the pipe? 13 longer than five micrometers per cubic centimeter 14 A. It was intended for the laborer in 14 ceiling concentrations. That is what you expected 15 the field to use these practices to install our 15 the laborers to understand? 16 pipe, yes. 16 A. No, I did not. 17 Q. So you expected the laborer in the 17 Q. Okay. 18 field to know and understand this brochure? 18 A. We expected the laborers to 19 A. We expected the contractor and the 19 understand the practices that are in this book that 20 foremen to understand this brochure, plus we had 20 you could use to safely install -- to install the 21 installation instructors in each of our districts 21 product within the applicable standards, and it's 22 who went out and made sure it was understood. 22 not only easily read, it also has illustrations. 23 Q. My question to you, sir, is, the 23 Q. Yes, sir. Can we go to Page 6 of the 24 laborer in the field who was doing the work, did you 24 brochure? 25 expect him to read and understand this brochure? 25 MR. EDELL: Page 19. 70 (Pages 277 to 280) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 281 Page 283 1 MR. PLACITELLA: I'll get there. 1 "Significant amounts of airborne asbestos dust are 2 MR. EDELL: Okay. 2 not produced." 3 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. Do you see Page 6, sir? 4 Q. What did you mean by "significant"? 5 A. Yes, sir. 5 A. Any -- well, there is a study itself, 6 Q. This is a picture of somebody 6 which is not part of this, necessarily, but it means 7 presumably unloading the pipe? 7 that it's -- that there is -- that the amount of 8 A. Yes, sir. 8 fiber released from this operation was well within 9 Q. No respirator, correct? 9 the OSHA standards. Well within the OSHA standards. 10 A. That's correct. 10 Q. Sir, is it your understanding that 11 Q. At the bottom it says, "Exposure data 11 the OSHA standards were designed to protect against 12 not currently available," correct? 12 cancer? 13 A. That's correct. 13 A. It was our understanding, sir, that 14 Q. The next -- 14 the OSHA standards were designed so that you could 15 A. Well, we have to read it all. I 15 manufacture, install and use a safe product. 16 mean -- 16 Q. Sir, were you aware that the -- OSHA 17 Q. "Recommendations based on exposure 17 specifically said that the standard would not 18 data for operations believed to be comparable"? 18 protect against cancer? 19 A. "Comparable," yes. 19 A. I saw -- heard some wording of that 20 Q. Comparable. 20 fact, yes, but they were the ones that put the 21 A. Yes. However, we did two series of 21 standard out. 22 testing. We did a series of testing in March of '77 22 Q. So, knowing that the OSHA standard 23 and we did another series of testing in December of 23 would not protect against cancer, you still phrased 24 '77 because we weren't too happy with the way that 24 this booklet the way you did? 25 was worded, and we did this operation and the series 25 A. We phrased this booklet as a way to Page 282 Page 284 1 of testing in -- in December of '77 and it proved us 1 install our product within the OSHA standards. 2 to be right. 2 Q. Page 9 has a picture of a man using a 3 Q. So you have another brochure -- a 3 field lathe, correct? 4 different version of it? 4 A. Yes. 5 A. Well, it didn't -- we didn't put out 5 Q. To trim -- to end trim the product? 6 another brochure until, as you well probably know, 6 A. I wanted to read that before I 7 until 1988. 7 answered your question. 8 Q. So the brochure that you kept out 8 It's a little more than end trimming 9 until 1988 said you didn't have any exposure data? 9 here. You are machining dimensions on the pipe so 10 A. Well, it tells you how to do it, and 10 you can install it into a coupling and seal in the 11 we never had any questions on -- we said this 11 gasket. 12 operation was safe, and we never had any questions 12 Q. Okay. 13 whether it was or it wasn't, and we say it is, so go 13 So, end trim and re-machine rough 14 ahead and use it. 14 pipe barrels, correct? 15 Q. The next page is cutting with a 15 A. That's correct. 16 carbide blade. 16 Q. Would that process release asbestos 17 Do you see that? 17 fiber? 18 A. Yes. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And there is a picture of somebody, 19 Q. Does this man have a respirator on? 20 correct? 20 A. No. 21 A. Yes. 21 Q. The next -- 22 Q. And he's not wearing a respirator, 22 A. But because -- I mean, my answer is, 23 correct? 23 no -- yes, it does release fiber, but well within 24 A. That's correct. 24 the OSHA standard. 25 Q. And what you say on the bottom is 25 Q. But you knew the OSHA standards would 71 (Pages 281 to 284) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 285 Page 287 1 not protect against cancer? 1 manual ratchet, pneumatic, electric or gasoline 2 A. Well, we -- we knew that -- we 2 drive to power the cutting head"? 3 were -- it was our understanding that, if you would 3 A. Yes, but it was all manual. It was 4 manufacture, sell -- ship and sell and install a 4 all manual. 5 product in accordance with the standards, you were 5 Q. So this is wrong? 6 doing a safe -- you were acting as a responsible 6 A. Well, I don't know exactly what all 7 company. 7 is taking place in there, but that's all inside 8 Q. The next page, sir, talks about power 8 the -- inside that hole cutter, itself. 9 field lathes -- 9 Q. Is this a power tool or not, sir? 10 A. Yes. 10 A. I would not consider it a power tool. 11 Q. -- for trimming? 11 Q. Even though it uses electric and gas 12 A. Yes. 12 to drive a cutting head? 13 Q. Would this process release asbestos 13 A. The cutting head within -- within the 14 fiber? 14 casing. It wasn't exposed. 15 A. Yes. 15 Q. Does this product -- does this 16 Q. Does this man have a respirator? 16 procedure generate asbestos fiber, sir? 17 A. No. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. The next page, Number 11, has 18 Q. Does this man portrayed in this 19 somebody -- what is he doing? Filing asbestos pipe 19 picture have a respirator on? 20 with a hand file? 20 A. No, for the reasons I've mentioned. 21 A. Yes, he's putting a -- he's putting a 21 Q. The man in the picture does not have 22 bevel on the end of the pipe with a hand file. 22 a respirator on, correct? 23 Q. And here it says there is no exposure 23 A. No, for the reasons I mentioned. 24 data available, correct? 24 Q. I don't understand what that means. 25 A. That's correct. 25 A. Well -- Page 286 Page 288 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. But there was in the -- in the 3 February -- excuse me -- in the December '77 4 results. 5 Q. Now, the next, Page 12, talks about 6 making cuts into the pipe with a hole cutter, 7 correct? 8 A. With a shell cutter, yes. 9 Q. When did shell cutters first come 10 into existence? 11 A. I don't know the answer to that, but 12 they were in existence ever since I was with the 13 company. 14 Q. So, from at least the 1960s? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And what's the purpose of a shell 17 cutter? 18 A. It depends whether you have to have a 19 hole in the product for some reason. 20 Q. And that was a power-driven tool, 21 correct? 22 A. No. No. 23 Q. Does it say here, "Shell cutters 24 consist of a hole cutter housing mounted on the 25 pipe, a carbide or diamond tip hole cutter and a 1 Q. My question simply to you is, does 2 the man have a respirator on doing a procedure that 3 is known to generate asbestos dust? 4 A. And my answer to you is, he does not 5 have a respirator because the amount of asbestos 6 released is well within the OSHA standards. 7 Q. And you tested this procedure, sir? 8 A. It was tested in March of '77, yes. 9 Q. And you say, "Do not blow out with 10 compressed air or dry sweep." 11 A. Right. 12 Q. For how long -- was that a practice 13 that had been going on before 1977? 14 A. I don't know whether people were 15 doing that or not, but we were telling them not to 16 do it. 17 Q. So you don't know whether or not, 18 before 1977, people were blowing out with compressed 19 air or sweeping up the dust that was generated? 20 A. Well, I don't know if people 21 were blowing it out. I mean, you'd have to have a 22 compressor out there to do it. I don't know whether 23 they were blowing it out. 24 Q. What about dry sweeping? Were people 25 using a broom, sir, to sweep up the dust before 72 (Pages 285 to 288) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 289 1 1977? 1 2 A. Out in the field? 2 3 Not that I'm aware of. 3 4 Q. So why did you tell them not to do 4 5 it, sir? 5 6 A. Just to be sure. 6 7 Q. Okay. 7 8 The next picture is somebody 8 9 drilling -- 9 10 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. -- asbestos-cement pipe? 11 12 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. Would the drilling of asbestos-cement 13 14 pipe and the hitting it with a hammer generate 14 15 asbestos fiber? 15 16 A. I don't know about hitting it with a 16 17 hammer, but drilling it would, yes. 17 18 Q. Well, the purpose of hitting with a 18 19 hammer is to knock the hole out where you drilled, 19 20 correct? 20 21 A. That's correct. 21 22 Q. You don't think that's going to 22 23 generate asbestos fibers? 23 24 A. I don't know that. The fiber is 24 25 encapsulated. You've already caused the hole, so 25 Page 290 1 the fiber would -- if anything happened, would pull 1 2 out with what you're -- the coupon that you are 2 3 knocking out. 3 4 Q. And you didn't have any exposure data 4 5 for that when you put this pamphlet out, correct? 5 6 A. That's correct, but we did in 6 7 December. 7 8 Q. The next shows somebody hitting it 8 9 with a chisel -- 9 10 A. Correct. 10 11 Q. -- correct? 12 A. Correct. 11 12 13 Q. Does that generate asbestos cement -- 13 14 asbestos fiber? 14 15 A. Yes. 15 16 Q. The next picture on Page 15 is 16 17 somebody using a tool. What is he doing? 17 18 A. He is -- he's -- within that -- 18 19 within that hole tool there is a tapping machine, 19 20 and he's tapping a hole in the pipe. 20 21 Q. Would that generate asbestos fiber? 21 22 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. Is this man wearing a respirator? 23 24 A. No. 24 25 Q. The next is a picture of somebody 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 291 using a boring machine? What's that? A. Where do you see that, sir? I'm sorry. Q. Page 16. A. That's a tapping machine. Q. A tapping machine? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And does that drill into the pipe? A. Yes. Q. And does that process generate asbestos fiber? A. Yes. Q. And is this person wearing a respirator? A. No, for the reasons I've already gone over. Q. Well, it says here you don't have any exposure data for this. A. Well, we did, in March -- excuse me -- in December. Q. The next is somebody hitting the pipe again with a chisel. A. Well, it's a coupling, yes. Q. Would that product generate asbestos Page 292 fiber? A. I don't know how much -- yes. Very little, yes. Q. Now we can skip all the way to Page 19. This shows a picture of somebody cutting a piece of asbestos-cement pipe with what they say is an abrasive disk dry saw, correct? A. Correct. Q. And it says, "Power-driven saws with abrasive blades, masonry blades should not be used for dry cutting or beveling," correct? A. Correct. Q. And on this picture it says, "Not recommended" -A. Correct. Q. -- correct? A. Correct. Q. Does this picture mention anything about wearing a respirator when you do this process? A. Well, we don't want you to do the process. Q. Is there -- in this brochure, in 1977, is there any mention of using a respirator with any of the processes depicted in this brochure? A. In this -- 73 (Pages 289 to 292) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 293 1 Q. Yes, sir. 1 2 A. I don't know if there is anything in 2 3 the front of it -- I don't believe there is, but let 3 4 me just check, please. 4 5 No, there wouldn't be, because the 5 6 only process that was tested that would need -- you 6 7 would need a respirator for would be the 7 8 high-powered abrasive disk saw, and we didn't want 8 9 people to use that. 9 10 Q. So what did you want them to use? 10 11 A. Either the equipment shown on Page 7 11 12 or the equipment shown on Page 8, which were manual 12 13 ways to cut pipe. 13 14 Q. So you didn't want them to use a saw 14 15 at all? 15 16 A. That's correct -- a power saw, that's 16 17 correct. 17 18 Q. Well, is there anything in here that 18 19 says that you can use any kind of saw? 19 20 A. Well, we did some testing later on on 20 21 a hacksaw -- or a hand saw, and you can use that 21 22 without any issues. 22 23 Q. Is there anything in this manual that 23 24 says not to use a saw? 24 25 A. What saw? 25 Page 294 1 Q. Any kind of saw. Any hand saw, any 1 2 electric saw. 2 3 A. It says not to use the power saw. 3 4 Q. Right. 4 5 A. On Page -- 5 6 Q. Abrasive disk drive saw? 6 7 A. Well, okay. It says don't use a 7 8 power saw -- power-driven saws with abrasive disk, 8 9 masonry blade -- 9 10 Q. Could you use a saw that had water as 10 11 part of the process? 11 12 A. Well, we tested that in -- in 12 13 December and we decided, as an industry, not to 13 14 recommend that because, you know, you generate so 14 15 much frictional heat that I don't know how -- how 15 16 good the water is, so we didn't want to take a risk. 16 17 Q. Is there anything in this brochure 17 18 that says that, if you don't do the process depicted 18 19 on Page 7, that you could get cancer? 19 20 A. There is no -- nothing mentioned 20 21 about cancer. It just mentions about being a 21 22 possible health hazard. 22 23 Q. Is the word "cancer" mentioned 23 24 anywhere in this brochure? 24 25 A. No, it's not. 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 295 Q. Is there anything that says, if you don't use the process on Page 7, it's a health hazard? A. If you don't use the process -- no. It's saying what not to use. It's saying don't use the high -- the power-driven saws. Don't use those. They are not recommended. That's a potential health hazard. Q. But we don't know what health hazard? A. What do you mean we don't know? Q. Well, it doesn't tell you what health hazard you are subjected to if you use the power saw? A. Well, we don't want -- we don't want you to use it regardless of what the health hazard is. Q. When it talks about clean-up, does it say anything about not letting workers go home with asbestos on their clothing? A. There is nothing in here about asbestos -- going home with asbestos on their clothing. Q. Is the word "warning" anywhere in this brochure? A. I don't remember the word "warning" Page 296 being used. The only thing is -- along those lines is that on Page 19 it says "Not recommended." Q. Well, that's not a warning, is it, sir? A. I say that's the only thing that's along those lines. Q. Is the OSHA instruction on asbestos located in the brochure? A. The OSHA instructions? What instructions? Q. Well, did you put in the caution statement that you put in the 1974 brochure for sewer pipe? A. That particular wording was not in this brochure, but it does give the summary of the OSHA asbestos standards. Q. OSHA asbestos standards also talk about cancer, asbestosis and mesothelioma, don't they? A. In some respects, I'm sure it does, but we -- what was put in this brochure had to do with the exposure limits. Q. It doesn't say that, if you exceed the exposure limits, you could get cancer, does it? A. The word "cancer," sir? I mean, I've 74 (Pages 293 to 296) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 297 1 answered that three times now. Exposure -- cancer 1 2 is not mentioned. It says a harmful -- what does it 2 3 say? 4 Q. Does it have the word "harmful" in 3 4 5 it? 5 6 A. I'm looking, sir. I'm looking. 6 7 I'm sorry. It says -- it's 7 8 identified as a possible health hazard. 8 9 Q. Where does it say that, sir? 9 10 A. On Page 3. 10 11 Q. Is that what CertainTeed believed, 11 12 sir, that exposure to asbestos is a possible health 12 13 hazard, or was it a proven health hazard? 13 14 A. Well, I don't know whether it was 14 15 proven or not. It's possible, if you -- if you are 15 16 subjected to substantial amounts of fiber over 16 17 periods of time, it was a potential -- a possible 17 18 health hazard. 18 19 Q. You could get cancer? 19 20 A. You could get cancer, you could get 20 21 asbestosis. 21 22 Q. And mesothelioma? 22 23 A. And -- well, that's cancer. 23 24 Q. But it doesn't say that? 24 25 A. No, it doesn't say that. It says 25 Page 298 1 possible health hazard. 1 2 Q. Now, sir, you say that this was 2 3 distributed for some period of time with your 3 4 shipments. 4 5 A. That's correct, yes. 5 6 Q. What period of time? 6 7 A. Yes, I don't know the answer to that. 7 8 It depends -- I have been trying to find that out, 8 9 to be perfectly frank about it. I'm not so sure 9 10 that I have an answer to that question, but it 10 11 was -- some plants I believe it was like a year, but 11 12 then, if new customers came on, then it was 12 13 obviously sent to a new customer or a new ship-to. 13 14 Q. What about out of the Ambler plant? 14 15 When was it used out of the Ambler plant? 15 16 A. When was -- this was used? 16 17 Q. Yes, sir. 17 18 A. As soon as it became in print. 18 19 Q. For how long was it shipped with your 19 20 asbestos-cement pipe out of the Ambler plant? 20 21 A. I don't know the length of time, 21 22 but -- I just don't know the length of time. 22 23 Q. Well, was it two months, three 23 24 months, six months? 24 25 A. No. I believe it was sometime around 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 299 a year. Q. About a year? A. I believe that, but I don't know for sure. Q. Well, what's the basis for your statement, sir? A. Because I've talked to some people and they think it was a year. Q. So, if you got a shipment sometime between '77 and '78 out of the Ambler plant, perhaps you would have gotten this brochure? A. Not perhaps. You would have gotten this brochure. (Discussion is held off the record.) BY MR. PLACITELLA: Q. This brochure was sent with the shipment, sir? A. With the truck, yes. Q. So, if a truck, say, went to Brent Materials? A. Correct. Q. And then who would get the brochure? Brent Materials? A. Wherever it was being shipped to would get the brochure. Page 300 Q. So, if it was shipped to Brent Materials, it would go to Brent Materials? A. If the load went to Brent Materials, they would have gotten the -- they would have gotten the recommended work practices, yes. Q. But if then the -- the -- Brent Materials took that shipment and took some pipe and sent it to this guy and some pipe to that place, the brochure wouldn't be going with it, would it? A. Not necessarily. However, instructions were given to our installation instructors, also to our salespeople, to make certain all contractors in the field were given this brochure. 85,000 of these things were distributed. 85,000. Q. So, when you wanted to put a warning out, you certainly knew how to do it? A. When we felt that there was a need to do something, we knew how to do it, yes. Q. So, you could have distributed 85,000 -- by the way, if you wanted to, you could have distributed 85,000 of these in 1976, too, correct? A. Well, they were distributed when it 75 (Pages 297 to 300) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 301 1 became published. 1 2 Q. You could have also distributed it in 2 3 '75, if you wanted to? 3 4 A. If it was published in '75, it could 4 5 have been. 5 6 Q. You had the means to distribute 6 7 85,000 copies of this in '75, if you wanted to? 7 8 A. It wasn't published until '77 and 8 9 that's when it was distributed. 9 10 Q. So, for the people who were using 10 11 this product in 1985 -- or '75, they didn't get the 11 12 benefit of this? 12 13 A. But they also had our installation 13 14 instructions, and our installation instructions told 14 15 them how to cut the pipe or machine the pipe in the 15 16 field, and that was back into the '60s. 16 17 Q. And that installation instructions 17 18 said don't use a power saw? 18 19 A. No, it did not. 19 20 Q. Okay. 20 21 So, when you put this brochure 21 22 together you had no way of really guaranteeing this 22 23 was ever going to make it to the guy who was doing 23 24 the work cutting the pipe out in the field, true? 24 25 A. What's your definition of 25 Page 302 1 "guarantee"? I mean, what else -- what else -- I 1 2 guess the question I'd ask myself is, what should we 2 3 have done differently than what we did do to 3 4 distribute this product -- this brochure? 4 5 Q. Sir -- 5 6 A. Excuse me. I don't know what else we 6 7 could have done that we didn't do. We had our 7 8 people out handing it out, we had distributor sales 8 9 people out handing it out, we put it in the loads, 9 10 it was advertised in magazines, it was sent out to 10 11 85,000 different customers, and it was presented at 11 12 all the local AWWA meetings and all the national 12 13 meetings. 13 14 Q. How much did it cost to make a copy 14 15 of this? 15 16 A. I have no idea. 16 17 Q. Was it pennies? 17 18 A. I have no idea. 18 19 Q. Was it nickels? 19 20 A. I have -- sir, I have no idea. 20 21 Q. Could you have attached this to all 21 22 the pipe? 22 23 A. What do you mean, "attached to it all 23 24 the pipe"? 24 25 Q. Whenever you sold a piece of pipe, 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 303 you could have attached it to the pipe. A. It was on each truck. Q. One per truck? A. One per truck. Q. So you had an alternative, though, didn't you? A. What was that? Q. You could have put a warning on the pipe itself? A. We did that in '79. Q. But you didn't do it in '77? A. We did it in '79. Q. You didn't do it in '77? A. No. It was an enhancement we did in '79. Q. So, if you wanted to make sure that the guy or the gal who was actually cutting the pipe in the field would get warned, you knew how to do it in 1977, didn't you? A. When it became a need to do it, we knew how to do it, yes. Q. So, in 1979 is the first time that you put something on the pipe so that the guy who was actually doing the work would be guaranteed to see something, true? Page 304 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: It was an enhancement we made voluntarily in '79, and we were the only company that did it, by the way. BY MR. PLACITELLA: Q. That was 18 years -- 17 years after you learned that asbestos could cause cancer. A. It was right after we -- we determined that the abrasive disk saw was the equipment that we did not want them to use, and that came in the mid-'70s, and we've already been through when we knew about the reports of different types of cancer. Q. Yes, sir. Now, in 1979 you had another choice to make, did you not? A. What was the other choice? Q. And that was what you were you going to put on the pipe, itself? A. That's correct. Q. You had a choice to tell the user what the real consequence was of cutting the pipe or you could just tell him that it could hurt them, correct? 76 (Pages 301 to 304) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 305 1 A. We didn't tell them either one of 1 2 those. 2 3 Q. Well, what did you put on the pipe in 3 4 1979? 4 5 A. I'd have to see the warning label, 5 6 but it says either caution, do not use the abrasive 6 7 disk saw -- power saw, it may have said -- to cut or 7 8 machine this pipe, or refer to the recommended work 8 9 practices that have been supplied to your -- to your 9 10 supervisor or to your company. 10 11 I mean, it's right in our 11 12 Interrogatories, what the wording was. 12 13 Q. It has a caution label and it said 13 14 don't use an abrasive disk saw, correct? One part 14 15 of it. 15 16 A. That was one part of it, yes. 16 17 Q. The other part was look at the 17 18 recommended work practices? That's, presumably, the 18 19 document in front of you, correct? 19 20 A. Yes. Refer to the recommended work 20 21 practices, yes. 21 22 Q. And if you went back and you looked 22 23 at the recommended work practices, as somebody who 23 24 was cutting the product, you would not see the word 24 25 "cancer," true? 25 Page 306 1 A. The word "cancer" is not in there. 2 Q. You would not see the word 3 "respirator"? 4 A. The word "respirator" is not in 5 there. 6 Q. When you saw the caution on the pipe, 7 it did not say "cancer," correct? 8 A. It did not say "cancer." 9 Q. It did not say "wear a respirator"? 10 A. Did not say "wear a respirator." 11 Q. It did not say "Make sure you don't 12 bring the asbestos on this pipe home to your 13 family"? 14 A. All it told you was the proper way to 15 install the product. That's what it told you, sir. 16 Q. It told you not to use a certain kind 17 of saw. That's only thing it told you? 18 A. No. It told you what you could use. 19 It did. 20 Q. What did it say? 21 A. Oh, my gosh, we were through those 22 pages -23 Q. So the only way you could find out, 24 if you were a laborer in the field is, you'd have to 25 go back, find the brochure, assuming that your 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street Page 307 employer had it, and read it? A. There is no assumption, sir. I would have to say the employer had it, Number 1; and, Number 2, the employer is the one who is supplying the tools in the field. It's not the laborer supplying his own tools in the field. The laborer doesn't show up with an abrasive disk saw in his hands and say "I'm going to start cutting pipe." He looked to his supervisor or to his company to supply the necessary materials to install the product. Q. Do you know what my question was? A. Yes. Q. What was it? A. I think I do. Why don't you tell me. Maybe I don't. Q. I'm trying to figure out what you are answering. A. Well, I just tried to answer your question, sir. Q. What was my question? A. Well, would you read -- MR. EDELL: Let's not play games, okay? MR. PLACITELLA: Okay. Page 308 BY MR. PLACITELLA: Q. In 1985 somebody in the company made a decision to put the word "cancer" on the pipe, correct? A. That's correct. Q. That was 13 years after the executives at CertainTeed rejected the notion of putting the word "cancer" on the pipe, true? A. Are you talking about the testimony that was given by Mr. Phillips to OSHA? Q. No. I'm asking what you know, sir. A. Well, how do you get 13 years? Q. In 1972 am I correct that the executives at CertainTeed had a meeting and they rejected the idea of putting "cancer" on the pipe? A. I don't know who all got together. I mean, again, I'd have to revert -- refer back to the presentation that was made by Mr. Phillips, and I don't know who all he talked to, but, as I mentioned to you earlier this morning, sir, it was in -- in connection or reference to ingestion. That was his problem -- that was the problem he was trying to get away from, ingestion. Q. Sir, did you talk to Mr. Phillips about this? 77 (Pages 305 to 308) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 309 Page 311 1 A. I don't know whether I ever talked to 1 Q. That is the first time that 2 Bruce about this or not. But, I mean, I think it 2 CertainTeed ever warned a user or consumer that 3 implies in his testimony ingestion, does it not? 3 exposure to asbestos from a CertainTeed 4 Q. Did you do any research -- I'm not 4 asbestos-cement pipe was capable of causing cancer, 5 referring to his testimony. 5 true? 6 A. Okay. 6 A. The word "cancer" is the first time 7 Q. I'm asking you, did you do any 7 it's used that I'm aware of. 8 research in preparing for this deposition to 8 Q. So, from 1962 until 1985 CertainTeed 9 determine the circumstances under which the word 9 took no steps to warn the consumer or user that 10 "cancer" was rejected by CertainTeed in 1972? Not 10 exposure to asbestos from asbestos-cement pipe could 11 what he put in his written testimony. 11 cause cancer, true? 12 A. That's the only thing I know, what 12 A. Well, CertainTeed -- as I said, sir, 13 was in the written testimony. 13 CertainTeed has installation instructions out there 14 Q. Did you talk to anybody, as the 14 as to the proper way of -- of installing our product 15 person who was going to come here to testify, to 15 and be within the applicable standards at the time 16 find out what led to the rejection of putting the 16 it was being installed. That's what we did during 17 word "cancer" on the pipe in 1972? 17 that time period. 18 A. No, I can't remember if I -- who I 18 Q. What was my question, sir? 19 talked to, but I do know that it was in reference to 19 A. Well, you'd have to repeat it. I 20 ingestion. 20 tried to answer your question, sir. 21 Q. And you know that because you read 21 Q. What was the question? 22 some testimony? Is that the only basis? 22 A. I don't recall it verbatim. Tell it 23 A. I don't know. Like I say, I don't 23 to me again or read it back to me. 24 know if I talked to anybody about it or not. 24 Q. At no time, sir, from 1962 up until 25 Q. Well, if I wanted to know what the 25 1985, did CertainTeed take any steps to warn people Page 310 Page 312 1 circumstances were, who would I talk to, who would I 1 exposed to asbestos from CertainTeed asbestos-cement 2 ask? 2 pipe about cancer? 3 A. I have no idea. 3 A. There was never any mention, that I'm 4 Q. So, as we sit here today, just to be 4 aware of, in writing anywhere about the word 5 clear, we don't know and we can't know, from your 5 "cancer," for the reasons that I've told you. 6 perspective, what the circumstances were, in terms 6 Q. And what changed between 1979 and 7 of discussions at CertainTeed in 1972, about putting 7 1985 that you decided to put the word "cancer" on 8 "cancer" or not on the pipe? 8 the pipe itself? 9 A. I don't know what discussions were 9 A. It was just a further enhancement 10 held at CertainTeed. I only can refer back to the 10 that the corporation wanted to make. 11 testimony that Mr. Phillips gave to OSHA in 1972. 11 Q. Something that you could have done in 12 Q. All right. 12 1962, if you wanted to? 13 What changed between 1979 and 1985, 13 A. In '62? 14 in terms of CertainTeed's knowledge of the dangers 14 Q. Yes, sir. 15 of asbestos? 15 A. You can do anything at any time 16 A. Nothing. 16 period. It wasn't something we felt was needed in 17 Q. They acquired no new or significant 17 1962. 18 knowledge between '79 and '85 -- 18 Q. What changed between 1979 and 1985 19 A. No -- 19 that you thought it was necessary to put the word 20 Q. -- is that what you are saying? 20 "cancer" on the pipe? 21 A. -- not that I'm aware of, no. 21 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 22 Q. But in 1985 a decision was made to 22 the question. 23 put "cancer" on the pipe itself, correct? 23 THE WITNESS: It was just a further 24 A. It was an enhancement to the label, 24 enhancement and -- I mean, the standards were being 25 yes. 25 lowered and we just wanted to be sure that we were 78 (Pages 309 to 312) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 313 Page 315 1 getting all the information out to the people that 1 conference, true? 2 we could. It was just a further enhancement. 2 A. In 1964 -- 3 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 3 Q. Yes, sir. 4 Q. And you could have done that in 1979? 4 A. Hold on. I'm trying to answer your 5 A. We could have put the word "cancer" 5 question. 6 on in '79. 6 The actual health effects of asbestos 7 Q. And you could have put it on in '77? 7 were nowhere near known in '64 as they were later 8 A. We could have done anything. We 8 on. 9 didn't have to do what we did do. 9 Q. Let's do that, then. You put the 10 Q. And, if you wanted to, you could have 10 word "cancer" on in '85, correct? 11 put it on in 1962, when you first knew that exposure 11 A. Correct. 12 to asbestos could cause cancer? 12 Q. When did you acquire the information 13 A. In 1962? 13 that you believe supported the premise that "cancer" 14 Q. Yes, sir. 14 should go on the pipe? 15 A. I don't believe that we knew in '62. 15 A. Well, there was no information that 16 I mean, roughly '65. 16 we got. As I said earlier, it was just a further 17 Q. Sir, do you remember Mr. Horowitz 17 enhancement to a label that we were doing on a -- on 18 coming to CertainTeed in 1962, as the safety 18 a non-mandatory level. We were not required to do 19 director, already having attended meetings about 19 it. We just did it as a company. 20 asbestos causing cancer? 20 Q. And you had the option of doing more 21 Do you recall that testimony? 21 than OSHA asked for from 1972 forward, did you not? 22 A. I recall those letters, sir, where he 22 A. We had the option to do anything from 23 said that's what was being reported. 23 '72 forward. 24 Q. So, when he came to -- when he came 24 Q. And you had the option to include the 25 to CertainTeed in 1962 with the knowledge that 25 word "cancer," before OSHA was passed, on the pipe, Page 314 Page 316 1 asbestos could cause cancer, CertainTeed could have 1 didn't you? 2 put that on its pipe, correct? 2 A. We had the option to do anything. We 3 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 3 could have put "This pipe is made out of red." We 4 the question. 4 could have put anything on the pipe. 5 THE WITNESS: I mean, they could have 5 Q. But you didn't? 6 done anything, but they didn't feel -- it wasn't 6 A. We did what we felt was needed to 7 needed to do it at that point. I mean, our pipe was 7 have a safe product. That's what we did. 8 just cut infrequently. It was -- it just didn't 8 Q. Sir, tell me everything that you did 9 have to be cut that often to be installed. And the 9 from 1962 until 1977 -- 10 way we were recommending it we were well within the 10 11 standards. 11 (Discussion is held off the record.) Mr. PLACITELLA: I guess that's a 12 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 12 signal that it's an appropriate place to stop. 13 Q. Sir, what changed between 1964, when 13 THE WITNESS: I'd like to answer that 14 you got all the reports from the Selikoff conference 14 question. 15 of people dying from mesothelioma, including 15 MR. PLACITELLA: I didn't finish the 16 children who were exposed to low doses, and 1985, 16 question. 17 when you finally put "cancer" on the pipe? 17 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry. 18 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 18 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 19 the question. 19 Q. Did you ever -- at any point in time, 20 THE WITNESS: Nothing happened. It 20 did you ever place on the pipe a warning that 21 was just, again, further enhancement on our part by 22 putting that new label on the products. 21 negligible amounts of exposure could cause cancer? 22 MR. EDELL: Objection to the form of 23 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 23 the question. 24 Q. And you could have done that in 1964, 24 THE WITNESS: Negligible? I mean, 25 after you got the reports from the Selikoff 25 the label is what the label is, sir. We put two 79 (Pages 313 to 316) Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090 Page 317 1 labels on our pipe, one in '79 and one in '85, and 2 you know what the wording is. 3 BY MR. PLACITELLA: 4 Q. My question is, did you at any time 5 tell -- put a label on your pipe that said "Small 6 amounts of exposure can cause cancer"? 7 A. We put on our pipe what we've already 8 said we put on our pipe, and those words weren't 9 used. 10 Q. Did you ever use -- did you ever put 11 on your pipe that family members were at risk from 12 exposure to asbestos? 13 A. That was never put on our pipe. 14 MR. PLACITELLA: Thedefense lawyers 15 are getting allergic to me, so I'll conclude the 16 questions for today. I think we are out of tape 17 anyway. 18 Thank you. 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes Day 2 0 1 at 5:19 p.m. 21 (5:20 p.m.) 22 23 24 25 Page 318 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I, Sean M. Fallon, a Registered 3 Professional Reporter and Notary Public of the 4 Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, do hereby certify 5 that, prior to the commencement of the examination, 6 the witness and/or witnesses were sworn by me to 7 testify to the truth and nothing but the truth. 8 I do further certify that the 9 foregoing is a true and accurate computer-aided 10 transcript of the testimony as taken 11 stenographically by and before me at the time, place 12 and on the date hereinbefore set forth. 13 I do further certify that I am 14 neither of counsel nor attorney for any party in 15 this action and that I am not interested in the 16 event nor outcome of this litigation. 17 18 19 20 21 22 Registered Professional Reporter XI00840 23 Notary Public of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania 24 My commission expires 12-22-10 2 5 Dated: Brody Deposition Services, Inc. 7 Elm Street 80 (Pages 317 to 318) 908-789-2000 Westfield, New Jersey 07090